<div dir="ltr"><div></div><div><br><div>Keth let me ask a question, to determine if you are completely qualia blind or not.</div><div><br></div><div>First, would you agree that redness is a quality of your subjective knowledge of a strawberry, a quality of something in your brain, not a quality of the strawberry.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, Would you agree that we need to first discover what is responsible for your redness quality, and also what is responsible for your greenness quality. THEN once we know the true color qualities of things (instead of just the seeming color qualities of things), we will then be able to engineer artificial conscious systems, using whatever is made of those redness and grenness qualities. We will need to make such decisions as do we want the redness and greenness qualities to be engineered the same as Keith's subjective red and green knowledge, or do we want it to be red/green inverted. (or any of another gazillion different falses color possibilities)</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, unless you are thinking about what color palette to use, to represent subjective knowledge with, in any engineered system you are thinking of, your thinking is qualia blind.</div><div><br></div><div>What is a redness quality? Which of all our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain (even if only functional) is a description of redness? How can you design a system that uses your subjective redness without being able to know and subjectively demonstrate that?</div><div><br></div><div>If you're not imagining which of these systems you plan on engineering, you are qualia blind. As all of them will be possible.</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_lsthy4h50" alt="strawberery_is_red.jpeg" width="480" height="310"><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:55 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">"requires analog meat brains."<br>
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I don't see any reason for this.<br>
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On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat<br>
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> From: extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat<br>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?<br>
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> Hi Spike,<br>
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> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.<br>
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> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don’t." (Yay! ;)<br>
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> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"<br>
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> then you seem to contradict your desires with:<br>
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> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins] is likely." (I can relate to this.)<br>
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> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people seem to try to do.<br>
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> Ja. Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or even betting.<br>
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> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your beliefs. If you do that, in the long run, you win. You win by taking advantage of those who bet their values.<br>
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> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent. I would pay 80 cents for that bet. But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley experience is substrate independent. It might be independent, but I fear that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog meat brains.<br>
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> I don’t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven’t messed with it. Don’t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my list. It just isn’t at the top of my list and currently isn’t seriously challenging anything up there at the top. But times change.<br>
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> Speaking of which… political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer, ja? I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence of desire vs belief. Cool.<br>
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> spike<br>
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> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54 AM BillK via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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> >…I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that<br>
> uploads will have experiences like humans… BillK<br>
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> BillK I reluctantly agree. I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don’t. But I am compelled to think that human emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains, swimming in hormones and endorphins. I hope not, but think it is likely.<br>
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> spike<br>
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