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On 19/02/2024 22:18, BillK wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<pre>It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
brain and body environment.
So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
digital copy of the individual’s brain, including memories, thoughts,
and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).
Mr AI comments -
In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
hormonal influences...
I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
everything!" solves this problem.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
OK, this hinges on what 'emulate absolutely everything' means.<br>
<br>
When talking about uploading, I do mean a complete emulation of the
human brain and body, in a virtual external environment. The
emulation would need to be accurate, but only for all the /relevant/
bits. The rest could be an approximation, taken from one or more
sets of standard data that could be used for anyone (a bit like
picking your initial, pre-made avatar in current VR environments).<br>
<br>
We are pretty sure that there's a ton of relevant bits in the brain,
and at first would be afraid to omit anything, I expect.<br>
The body and external environment are on a decreasing scale of
relevance (not importance, but relevance to uploading a specific
person).<br>
<br>
We have previously discussed on here the idea of a generic upload
template, which is then varied with information from a specific
individual. I'm imagining a 'model body', a standard set of
information that relates to a virtual human body, and includes
things like immune system, endocrine system, etc. Probably also some
representation of the microbiome too. Yes, this would be complex,
but would only need to be done once, not for every single upload.<br>
<br>
Maybe a generic standard body would be fine for most people, maybe
some variations would need to be added for certain people, we don't
really know yet. Maybe people would turn out to be good at adapting
to the fact that their new virtual body was lacking the annoying
things that most people would be happy to change (e.g. their poor
vision, or hearing, etc., or the proportions of their limbs, etc.).
Of course, one of the appeals of uploading would be that you could
tweak your body to be just about anything you like. Perhaps everyone
could start out with a standard model, then proceed to customise it.<br>
<br>
Now someone is going to say "if you don't transfer the right
information about the endocrine functions (gut microbiome/immune
system/what-have-you), are they the same person?". That's a
philosophical question along the same lines as "are you the same
person you were yesterday/before your operation/last year/before
that course of antibiotics/etc.?".<br>
<br>
I'm of the opinion that these things are vastly less important than
the structure of your brain, for determining whether you are 'the
same person'. As long as I was furnished with a capable virtual
body, not necessarily closely modelled on my biological one, I think
I'd be happy to upload (given that my mind was correctly
reproduced).<br>
<br>
So, yes, I think that we will need to emulate more than just the
brain, but no, I don't think that head-only storage is insufficient.
We can, in essence, 'make up' the non-brain stuff that will be
necessary, but doesn't have to be exactly as per the original
biological body.<br>
<br>
We'd need virtual external environments too, but I don't think
anybody is going to argue that the details of those will be
significant for the fidelity of an upload. And we will definitely
want to change those anyway.<br>
<br>
I can see a set of future jobs, based on designing various things
for uploads: virtual body design, with lots of specialist areas,
sensorium design, external environments, etc.<br>
<br>
Oh, and Mr AI is clearly talking out of his non-existent arse. I'm
astonished that there are people who seriously think that an upload
would be 'devoid of physical sensations'! If this is a widespread
idea, no wonder lots of people aren't keen on it.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
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