<div dir="auto">These files are already online.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 12:02 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 18:52, Max More via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have names like "DIG30269".
The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones – another old name to remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.</span></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Send them to me!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">From: Reilly Jones <<a href="mailto:70544.1227@compuserve.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">70544.1227@compuserve.com</a>></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about Zen</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">enlightenment. I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has also</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical discoveries.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those capacities...</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen enlightenment". The best</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to understand even</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">more about mind and nature.></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention. It is content-transcending,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass the</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains. All mystics,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip to</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires, and get</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader). At some point, the</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit knowledge,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">the open-ended connections between non-self and the self. Nothing from this</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with others</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">because it is literally wordless.</span></div>
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</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as to</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">mysticism's practical value:</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no intellectual</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> benefit redounds to mankind. Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Bergson. In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> state of ecstasy."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field go off</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of the field</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">they are working in. They have sensed that their field is approaching a</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness landscape,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are clinging</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">to. They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the basins</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended up in an</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">epistemic evolutionary dead-end.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of this</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more productive</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core of</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">these fields must need to be re-examined. This felt need for re-examination is</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search. It is an</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions went</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the search have</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific framework,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">is not going to be fruitful. So, although most people going this route waste a</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone will</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">come up with something highly fruitful. Sometimes a trip to the wilderness</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and dirty.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology:</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href="mailto:70544.1227@compuserve.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">70544.1227@compuserve.com</a> | The rational, moral and political relations</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> | between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'</span></div>
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<div id="m_6446607926706176337m_6186604891332284861divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Giulio Prisco <<a href="mailto:giulio@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">giulio@gmail.com</a>></font></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div id="m_6446607926706176337m_6186604891332284861divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ‘Humanity’s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50’</font>
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<div dir="auto">This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or send them to me and I will upload them.</div>
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<div><a href="https://github.com/Extropians/extropians" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/Extropians/extropians</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Keith,<br>
<br>
It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*<br>
me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them<br>
besides you. Just something to consider. :)<br>
<br>
Be Well!<br>
Regards,<br>
MB<br>
<br>
On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:<br>
<br>
> PS. I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to<br>
> access.<br>
><br>
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