<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Keith,</div><div><br></div><div>Oh, yes, now I recall that in your great story. The problem I have with it, is you are failing to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality. Sure, you could have a 100% abstract simulated world feeding data into the brain through simulated senses. But there also needs to be a buble world, inside the head, that is the brain's knowledge of that simulated world. Any subjective knowledge composed of colored qualities must be something more than an abstract word like 'red'.</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 6:31 PM Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:24 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">My primary target is religious irrational nut cases that believe there is some "spirit world" independent of the brain. (i.e. most Mormons)<br></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I'm presenting a talk at the <a href="https://mtaconf.org/" target="_blank">upcoming Mormon Transhumanist conference</a> and I'm going all in with this "spirit world" terminology. Joseph Smith said many times (and it is in Mormon Scripture) "All spirit is matter which can only be discerned by purer eyes."</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In the story, "spirit world" is a simulation of the real world. People can more between the real world and the simulation whenever they wish.</div><div><br></div><div>This is totally unlike the Mormon ideas. As far as I know, nobody has ever come back from their "spirit world."</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, the "spirit world" most mormons believe in today, and the ghosts which most mormons irrationally believe leave the body upon death to head to this neither world of the dead is what I'm trying to attack and destroy, by showing how irrational, faithless and evil it is. I'm trying to point out that there is a much more modern, scientifically consistent, rational and hopeful way to interpret statements like "All Spirit is Matter'.'</div><div><br></div><div>I'm trying to point out that we can believe in engineerable knowledge of (again important to distinguish between reality and knowledge of reality) <b><font size="4">spirits</font></b>, which live within bubble spirit worlds, all dependent on living and computing brains computing directly on spiritual qualities like redness and greenness. But we don't need to believe in <b><font size="4">ghosts</font></b>. which are neither engineerable nor enhanceable, and most importantly, falsifiable (i.e. once we discover what spiritual qualities are, this will falsify for all the believers in <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/48-Substance-Dualism">substance dualism</a>, and force them into a more physical scientific consensus camp.)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Keith<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>If we can get the irrational idiots who believe in whoga booka BS, to use words like "spirit world" for something real and objectively observable, maybe this will convert them to be more rational, and hopeful for what uploading will really be like? And hopefully it will increase their likeliness to be more motivated to do things like be cryonically preserved....</div><div><br></div><div>Oh, my talk's title:</div><div><br></div><div><font size="6">"All spirit is matter"</font></div><div><font size="4">What will spiritual engineering and uploading be like?</font></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_chip gmail_drive_chip" style="width:386px;height:20px;max-height:20px;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);margin:6px 0px;padding:10px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;font-family:"Google Sans",sans-serif;border:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uvOyzqIKWLb2Wl2JtrWUzOQ2i7p0XKE1/view?usp=drive_web" style="color:rgb(32,33,36);display:inline-block;max-width:356px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-decoration-line:none;border:medium none" aria-label="TWIYH_1080P.mp4" target="_blank"><img style="vertical-align: text-bottom; border: medium none; padding-right: 10px; height: 20px;" alt="" src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/doclist/images/icon_10_generic_list.png"> <span dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:bottom">TWIYH_1080P.mp4</span></a><img aria-label="Remove attachment" style="display: none; padding-left: 10px; width: 20px; height: 20px; float: right;"></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:38 AM Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com" target="_blank">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 10:09 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>My belief is that visual 3D visual knowledge of what we see is a critical part of what consciousness is.</div><div>There is a spirit world in our heads composed of color qualities. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The "spirit world" in _The Clinic Ssed_ was a euphemism for the simulated world uploaded minds found themselves in.</div><div><br></div><div>Keith<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>When there is a lesion in the primary visual cortex the part of this spirit world represented in that region is gone, a gaping blind spot.</div><div>"Bionic eyes" using things like the Utah Array and work being done by neura link can stimulate areas in the visual cortex, and get people to experience visual knowledge or pixels or white sometimes referred to as 'sprites'. But they can't yet get color. And until they know what is responsible for subjective color qualities, and can reproduce all the colors at will, subjectively, and fix these regions in the primary visual cortex, no simulation of it will work.</div><div><br></div><div>My prediction is, once they discover which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness, and stuff like that. And once they can get colored 'sprites' to be experienced in the subjective visual space, this will revolutionize AI, to say nothing about repairing the visual cortex and its qualities. I predict this kind of computation directly on intrinsic qualities like redness and greenness will change humanity forever. I predict that people will look back on completely quality blind thinking like this as ideotic. Everyone will be wondering how so many smart people could have been so quality blind for so long.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_chip gmail_drive_chip" style="width:386px;height:20px;max-height:20px;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);margin:6px 0px;padding:10px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;font-family:"Google Sans",sans-serif;border:1px solid rgb(221,221,221)"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U4mq0Tpi1dGugf-ZJB8YLH4k8Vaa3r5D/view?usp=drive_web" style="color:rgb(32,33,36);display:inline-block;max-width:356px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;text-decoration-line:none;border:medium none" aria-label="TWIYH_1080P.mp4" target="_blank"><img style="vertical-align: text-bottom; border: medium none; padding-right: 10px; height: 20px;" alt="" src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/doclist/images/icon_10_generic_list.png"> <span dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:bottom;text-decoration:none">TWIYH_1080P.mp4</span></a><img aria-label="Remove attachment" style="padding-left: 10px; width: 20px; height: 20px; float: right; display: none;"></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 5:57 PM Travis Porco via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Forgive me for delurking,</blockquote><div><br></div><div>No forgiveness needed. Welcome to the chat!</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> but perhaps the time has come to ask *how*<br>
to do an upload or upload-like activity right now, today, with<br>
existing technology...extracting enough memory and identity to<br>
generate an authorized continuing agent for yourself, without being<br>
distracted by worries about whether it is "really you" and so forth.<br>
As I follow these discussions I find the philosophical worries merely<br>
lead to inaction, and in some cases, contain elements dismissive of<br>
the value of lives.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well...there is one option with today's technology, but it'd be heck of impractically expensive for a human brain, though I hear something like this might be being done with insect brains.</div><div><br></div><div>Map out and simulate each neuron, one by one. Make a good enough (which likely requires near-perfect in practice) software simulation of the neuron, including its synapses (its inputs and outputs). Connect these neuron simulations together, in the exact same fashion as the actual neurons are connected. Run the whole thing on a powerful enough computer - which involves massive parallelism, even for insect simulations, thus the expense. There also needs to be blank/spare/extra hardware to simulate growth of new neurons over time (not as many as already exist in the running brain, but a nonzero amount, with a potentially indefinite cap if the simulated brain lives forever; more hardware can be added over time to support this, but this might put a cap on the practical maximum speed-up if the uploaded brain is to run significantly faster than the original).</div><div><br></div><div>This misses input from the rest of the body, but it's a start (and can help narrow down exactly what the rest of the body's inputs are).</div></div></div>
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