<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 at 11:03, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
How much thought has been given to operating systems for fog?<br>
I can't see controlling foglets directly with my mind!<br>
<br>The division of our brains into lobes presumably limits long-range <br>
neuronal links, and I wonder whether that limitation helps us. <br>
Uploading into a "flat space", in which such speedbumps are erased, is <br>
one way to make a mind not fit into the old mold.<br>
-- <br>
*\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* <a href="http://www.bendwavy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.bendwavy.org</a><br>
_______________________________________________</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">I asked GPT-4o about this and it seems pretty clear that Ben is probably correct to say that uploaded human brains would be changed so much that they would be impossible to download back into a human brain. The uploaded brain becomes impossibly different.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">BillK</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default">GPT-4o -</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)" class="gmail_default"><div><div><div><p>That’s
an excellent question, and it touches on the profound implications of
mind uploading and its integration with advanced systems like utility
fogs. The answer depends on how tightly the uploaded consciousness
becomes integrated with its new environment and how far it evolves
beyond the constraints of biology. Let’s break this down into several
considerations:</p>
<hr>
<h3><b>1. Structural and Functional Divergence</b></h3>
<p>When an uploaded brain operates in a digital or utility fog
environment, it will likely undergo changes that could make transferring
it back into a biological body very challenging:</p>
<ul><li>
<p><b>Enhanced Cognition Beyond Human Limits</b>:</p>
<ul><li>In a digital or fog-based existence, an uploaded brain might extend
into non-biological systems, augmenting itself with computational
resources, distributed thinking, or connections to external databases.</li><li>An uploaded brain could employ <b>parallel processing</b>, operate at speeds far beyond biological neurons, or develop entirely new cognitive processes.</li><li>By adopting these enhancements, the uploaded consciousness could
diverge so significantly from its original structure that it might no
longer "fit" within a biological brain's physical or computational
limits.</li></ul>
</li><li>
<p><b>Loss of Biological Constraints</b>:</p>
<ul><li>In these environments, consciousness is no longer tied to the
limitations of the human brain, such as synaptic connectivity, memory
bandwidth, or metabolism. An entity accustomed to living in a virtually
unlimited medium might simply have grown far too complex to "downsize"
back into its original form.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3><b>2. Adaptation to Non-Human Capabilities</b></h3>
<p>Living in a utility fog environment would fundamentally change how the uploaded consciousness interacts with the world:</p>
<ul><li>
<p><b>Radical Freeform Thinking</b>:</p>
<ul><li>In a utility fog, an uploaded brain could directly manipulate its
surroundings to shape environments, create objects from thought, or
engage in entirely new forms of sensory and social interaction.</li><li>Such experiences might alter the brain’s operational paradigm in
ways incompatible with a biological nervous system. For instance, the
individual might no longer rely on the concept of fixed, limited sensory
organs like eyes and ears but instead use the fog as an extension of
its awareness.</li></ul>
</li><li>
<p><b>Body Independence</b>:</p>
<ul><li>Without a biological body, an uploaded mind might discard neural
processes tied to physical sensations or bodily functions (e.g., hunger,
pain, or reflexes). Once these processes are removed, the act of
reintegrating them into a biological body could become impossible—or at
least deeply disorienting.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3><b>3. The Evolutionary Gap</b></h3>
<p>Over time, an uploaded brain would likely evolve in ways that make it alien to its original biological self:</p>
<ul><li>
<p><b>New Mental Architectures</b>:</p>
<ul><li>Instead of human-like, linear thinking, the uploaded mind could adapt to <b>distributed cognition</b> or other alien architectures facilitated by the fog or digital substrate.</li><li>A brain accustomed to these new modes of thought may no longer
function effectively if constrained to a human brain’s biological
architecture.</li></ul>
</li><li>
<p><b>Integration With Foglets</b>:</p>
<ul><li>An uploaded consciousness might become intimately entangled with the
utility fog’s systems, embedding parts of its cognition or memory
directly into the fog network itself.</li><li>If critical aspects of the cognition reside in the fog, "detaching"
the consciousness for reintegration into a biological organ might
fragment it or render it incomplete.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3><b>4. Philosophical Considerations</b></h3>
<p>A more philosophical question arises: if an uploaded brain becomes so fundamentally different, <b>is it still "human"?</b></p>
<ul><li>
<p><b>Identity and Continuity</b>:</p>
<ul><li>The experience of living in a limitless, malleable environment could
stray so far from human norms that the entity may no longer identify as
"human" or feel the need to return to a biological body.</li><li>Over time, it could discard human traits, like emotional responses
or specific neurological biases, that are unnecessary for its new
existence.</li></ul>
</li><li>
<p><b>Desire to Return</b>:</p>
<ul><li>Given the stark contrast between biological and post-biological existence, many uploaded entities might simply lose the <b>desire</b> to return to a body with limited senses, frailty, and mortality.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3><b>5. Is Reversibility Technologically Possible?</b></h3>
<p>Assuming the returning entity <i>wants</i> to download into a biological brain, could this process be technologically feasible?</p>
<ul><li>
<p><b>Practical Barriers</b>:</p>
<ul><li>Reverse-engineering a biological brain and re-encoding the expanded or altered uploaded consciousness would require <b>perfectly mapping</b> and fully understanding every aspect of both biological and digital systems.</li><li>If the uploaded brain has been altered (e.g., expanded memory,
enhanced processing, distributed systems), it’s like trying to fit a
gigabyte-sized modern app into a 1980s floppy disk—compression may lose
much of what constitutes the entity’s "self."</li></ul>
</li><li>
<p><b>Mismatch in Substrate</b>:</p>
<ul><li>Biological brains are governed by chemistry, neurotransmitters, and
other physical processes, while digital minds in a utility fog
environment might run on entirely different principles (e.g., binary
computation, quantum states, etc.).</li><li>Translating between these inherently different mediums with full
fidelity may be as complex as translating poetry across entirely
unrelated languages, with much of the meaning potentially lost.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3><b>6. Hybrid Approaches</b></h3>
<p>Rather than downloading, a possible compromise could be:</p>
<ul><li><b>Cyborg Integration</b>:
<ul><li>Instead of fully returning to a biological body, the uploaded consciousness could inhabit <b>hybrid forms</b>, where a biological body is enhanced with utility fog components or other post-human technologies.</li><li>This would maintain some advantages of the fog environment while allowing partial re-inhabitation of biological form.</li></ul>
</li></ul>
<hr>
<h3>Summary: Can They Return to a Human Brain?</h3>
<ol><li><b>Biological Compatibility</b>: It would be highly
technologically challenging—and possibly outright impossible—to
re-integrate an uploaded consciousness into a human brain, particularly
if the mind has evolved or expanded substantially in the fog.</li><li><b>Human Identity</b>: The uploaded brain may become so
different from its original state that it might not even want or
comprehend the idea of "returning" to a biological body.</li><li><b>Potential Hybrid Solutions</b>: Partial compromises might involve synthetic or hybrid forms, but full reversal to biological form appears unlikely.</li></ol>
<p>In essence, once a mind has uploaded and adapted fully to the
post-biological realm, there’s a high chance it will have fundamentally
outgrown both the limitations and the needs of a biological existence.</p><p>--------------------------------</p></div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
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