<div dir="ltr">That's crazy though, there's not infinite value inside the system producible by humans. Value on Earth mainly comes from the low-entropy energy of the sun and the resources it is used to arrange. What does the mind-system produce to trade with the OUTSIDE? Intellectual pursuits? Writing? Won't the AI be able to do that?<div><br></div><div>If you can't provide resources, what can you do?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 6:41 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There's an assumption here that I think may be false, and if it is, it <br>
changes the argument completely.<br>
<br>
Why assume that the infrastructure to host an individual mind has to be <br>
outside the control of the individual?<br>
<br>
The ability to create an entire film or a symphony in your bedroom with <br>
a laptop at virtually no cost except your time would have been thought <br>
outrageous and impossible not long ago. Now it's commonplace.<br>
<br>
The assumption was that a complex thing like a film has to involve <br>
hundreds of individuals, millions of pounds, and a vast array of <br>
equipment to make. Then someone came along and made The Blair Witch <br>
Project on a smartphone. Admittedly, it was a fairly crappy film, but it <br>
broke the assumption. The same thing with music. It used to take <br>
professional recording studios and a crowd of audio experts to make a <br>
record. Now spotty teenagers are able to create (technically) <br>
high-quality music with a laptop, some free software and a pair of <br>
headphones. Most of it might not be worth listening to, but that's not <br>
the point.<br>
<br>
The point is that technology advances on an accelerating curve, that <br>
puts previously inconcievable abilities into the hands of ordinary people.<br>
<br>
I'm pretty confident that once uploading technology matures (assuming <br>
it's possible at all), it won't be long before it becomes cheap and <br>
easy, no matter how hard and expensive it was to develop in the first <br>
place. I also expect the physical sizes of the systems will become much <br>
smaller than they need to be at first. There's nothing new in any of <br>
this, we've been seeing it happen for quite a few decades now, in all <br>
sorts of other technologies.<br>
<br>
This means that at some point, ordinary people will be able to upload <br>
themselves into a system that they own, that they can control, that has <br>
the ability to operate real-world agencies (robotic bodies, etc.), and <br>
can connect to a network of other virtual spaces.<br>
<br>
I used to be a fairly intense user of Second Life, some time ago (before <br>
Linden Labs got too heavy-handed with it), and my avatars, that I <br>
usually created myself, used to visit virtual spaces that other people <br>
had created. I had a job in there, earning money, interacted with people <br>
from all over the world, had a blast making scripted objects, for myself <br>
and other people, and had lots of interesting experiences, some of which <br>
would only be possible in a virtual world. All - within some practical <br>
limits - under my control, using my own computer, at no cost other than <br>
my internet connection and electricity. When the owners of the software <br>
that made it all possible started changing things, generally making life <br>
harder for people, I stopped using it and found another similar system <br>
created by more liberal-minded developers.<br>
<br>
This seems to me to be a fairly close analogy to what uploading could be <br>
like. No doubt there will be efforts to create walled gardens, <br>
controlled by big corporations, governments will try to interfere and <br>
censor, and there will be what Second Life used to call 'griefers', <br>
individuals who just wanted to be destructive and cause trouble for <br>
people, but these are all just part of life, challenges to be overcome <br>
as and when we meet them.<br>
<br>
"if we live in a giant computer..."<br>
<br>
Rather than the common picture of people being helpless pawns in a vast <br>
machine that they have no control over, I imagine a vast network of <br>
autonomous individuals, each one in their own independent container, and <br>
connecting as and when they want to billions of others, in common <br>
virtual spaces that they build for themselves. So it becomes "if we live <br>
in our own computers..."<br>
<br>
Which is not so different to what we have now, really, with each person <br>
in their own brain, in their own body that they have a limited degree of <br>
control over (biology being what it is), communicating with other people <br>
as and when they want to and need to. We are responsible for keeping <br>
ourselves healthy, sometimes with the help of a healthcare system, and <br>
for providing ourselves with shelter and food. Being an upload shouldn't <br>
be that different in principle, just the actual items and actions we <br>
need will be different. Antivirus software updates instead of <br>
vaccinations, etc.<br>
<br>
The real difference is, as an upload, your possibilities are much <br>
greater, and the downsides are fewer.<br>
<br>
Provided we do it in the right way.<br>
But, as always, there will be many ways. There will be the equivalents <br>
of Microsoft, Apple and Google, and the whole world of proprietary <br>
software, then there will be the equivalents of Linux and BSD, and the <br>
world of free software. There will be people who live in 'a giant <br>
computer', and those who live in their own individual computers.<br>
<br>
I suppose it should be said that these 'computers' won't be like the <br>
computers we have now. Max Headroom will never be a real thing. The term <br>
'processing space' might be better, and hopefully makes the similarity <br>
to biological brains clearer.<br>
<br>
To go back to Bill w's original question, "How will you pay for your <br>
upkeep?", there are probably as many answers as there are to the same <br>
question asked of biological people. In Second Life, I used to teach <br>
people to make furniture and jewellery. I expect there will be plenty of <br>
job opportunities for uploads, if that's what they need or want.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Ben<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div>