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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> John Clark <johnkclark@gmail.com> <br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] My review of Eliezer Yudkowsky's new book (UBI)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…Spike I honestly don't get it. You are giving me almost exactly the same arguments you gave me five years ago before the jaw-dropping developments in AI had occurred…<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Ja, but it isn’t an argument. Rather a question: if we just borrow it, why not just borrow more? Then we don’t need the insane bother and infrastructure of a tax code, an accounting industry, any of that.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…The asteroid is already visible even in the daytime sky and is about to slam into <span style='color:#474747'>Chicxulub, and you're still worried about trivialities like who will pay for what</span>…<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>I wouldn’t worry about it if I could just borrow more. Then I would just pay for it. But just credit limits happen.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:#474747'>This isn't 2020, w</span>e are living in a different world now, a different galaxy! </span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>John K Clark<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Eh, not really, and that is where I was going with it back then: who picks up the risk cost in the event that the world doesn’t end?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From what I can tell, the world didn’t end. So who just pays for that? I want my money, for suspecting the world would just not end.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Advances occurred, cool ones. But it is still the same world, and we haven’t found any easy solutions to who pays for the money the fed borrowed five years ago and thirty years ago. Interest costs have climbed, and that cost now dominates the Federal budget. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Now I still don’t know why, if there is no credit limit, why they can’t just borrow more. Why not just borrow it then, and leave us out of it? Oh wait, by the way Federal government, just pay us all UBI, and just pay for that too, if you really have no limit on your credit.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>John, that looks to me like a logical contradiction.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Of course the Federal government has a credit limit. Evidence is seen currently in our pretend government “shutdown,” the periodic government version of World Wrestling Entertainment. Sure it is kinda fun to watch if one is in the mood for silliness, but it really leads back to the original question: if that borrowing limit is just an illusion, and the real credit limit is infinite, why do Americans pay taxes? The suckers! Can’t the feds just borrow more? Why just not?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Oct 5, 2025 at 3:19<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 5 October, 2025 12:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] My review of Eliezer Yudkowsky's new book (UBI)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sun, Oct 5, 2025 at 2:17<span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span>PM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>…</span></b><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> I couldn't comment on Nancy Reagan's proposed solution to the illegal drug</span></b></span><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> problem,<span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault> "just don't do drugs"….</span></span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>That strategy works, with or without the just. The proper quote however is “Just say no.”</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>…<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…Then we simply borrow some more…</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>OK but who gets the profit from accepting the risk of that?</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…<span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault>That's the strategy we've used during the 21st-century and during most of the 20th, and it seems to have worked pretty well…</span></span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Oh on the contrary sir. It has led us into catastrophe in the USA because it didn’t cover the risk that the world would not end.</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>…The only time the US has had a balanced budget was four years during the Clinton administration…</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Ja, it was a miracle! Or not: it was an accounting trick, as was pointed out by a German investor friend. The USA didn’t magically balance its budget. It arranged to have the Social Security surplus counted as revenue, which it really isn’t. That is a retirement fund. Now we are borrowing money to pay that back, running up huge interest costs, which surpassed national defense, is now pulling up alongside Medicare, charging toward exceeding Social Security costs.</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>It is easy to see now that Elon was right: cut this budget severely, cut it now, cut it hard. Otherwise, the federal government does nothing but collect money to service its own debt, at which time it cannot borrow money, because investors see the risk going exponential. They will not loan.</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>>… but that's not a very good advertisement for having a balanced budget. </span></b></span> <span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>John K Clark</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>If we argue that it is not necessary to balance the budget, we are left with some explanation for why we need taxes. Can’t the government just borrow the money it needs? Why not?</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=m673736805429722927gmaildefault><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>spike</span></b></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>