<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">Given that all of our actions originate in the unconscious mind. there is no way a conscious mind can understand where its ideas and actions come from, much less understand them. The conscious mind may think it is in charge but it is just an observer (which nevertheless can understand that a mistake has been made and the idea or action needs redoing.) </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">You want to understand our minds? Make the workings of the unconscious conscious - and that's just a start. Why did the impulse go to point B when it left point A rather than to point C? And then trace all the points in between entering the unconscious and resulting in some idea or action. And explain each one.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">You can't even get started until you can truly access the unconscious. Give Freud credit- he tried to do this. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 6:35 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 31, 2025, 6:17 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
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<div>On 31/10/2025 21:34, Jason Resch wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 31, 2025, 3:16
PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div>On 31/10/2025 12:28, John K Clark wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>We can have a general sort of understanding of how our brain works but t<span class="gmail_default">o</span> have a perfect understanding a part of our brain would have to have a sort of internal map of the entire brain<span class="gmail_default">,</span> and for it to be perfect<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span>there would have to be a one to one correspondence between the map and the territory, but that would be impossible for something that is finite like the number of neurons in the human brain. However it would be possible for a proper subset of something infinite to have a one<span class="gmail_default"> to one</span> correspondence with the entire set; then you could have such a perfect map with a one to one correspondence ...</pre>
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<br>
You've completely lost me there, but I have two
observations: There's no such thing as 'perfect
understanding' except as a nebulous theoretical concept,
and I don't think a one-to-one correspondence would be
enough to understand something, or even be a relevant
concept. We use large parts of our brains to process
information from small parts of the world. You need a lot
more than a single neuron to figure out what's going on in
a single neuron.<br>
<br>
Oh, three observations. We don't process data
instantaneously. The same parts of the brain can be used
to process information about something repeatedly over
time, using feedback loops etc.</div>
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<div dir="auto"><br>
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<div dir="auto">Computers and algorithms are constrained by two
resources space (i.e. memory), and time (i.e. CPU cycles). While
some algorithms allow for time/space trade offs to be made in
certain circumstances, in general there is some shortest
description of the brain (in terms of bits) for which no shorter
representation is possible (regardless of how much additional
computation is thrown at it).</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So while the same brain may compute many times
with the same neurons, this addresses only the time component of
simulating a brain. There is still the matter of space.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ah, ok. I was talking about understanding the brain, not simulating
it. Modelling something is not the same as understanding it. Yes,
they help each other, but they aren't the same thing.<br></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think understanding a thing is equivalent to being able to form an accurate mental model of it. With greater levels of understanding corresponding to more accurate models.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What do you mean by the word understand?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The analogy here is that a computer with 1 MB of
RAM can't emulate a computer with 1 GB of RAM, even if it's
given 1000X the time to do so. In fact there's no amount of
additional time that will permit the memory deficient computer
to emulate the computer with 1 GB of memory, for the simple
reason that it will run out of variables to represent all the
possible values in the memory addresses of the computer with a
greater memory.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm not sure that this is true. Are you assuming no swap disk, or
other similar non-RAM storage?</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Swap disks are a means to extend available RAM.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> Because then I'm sure you're right,
but that's a pretty artificial restriction.<br>
The analogy there would be a human with a notepad maybe, or a
database, or a bunch of other humans, an AI, etc.<br>
<br>
So we're back to: A single human brain /on it's own/ can't
understand a human brain in any great detail. Of course.</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think that was the original question: can any mind ever fully understand its own operation.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> But that's
a pretty artificial restriction.<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Ben</pre>
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