<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 26, 2026 at 11:13 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><font size="4" face="georgia, serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Wouldn't that mean that energy storage is, very much, a factor?</i></font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><b>Yes but when you're talking about <span class="gmail_default" style="">AI </span>data centers<span class="gmail_default" style="">, energy storage is just as big </span>a factor for nuclear energy and gas turbines<span class="gmail_default" style=""> as it is for wind or solar power, every power source needs battery storage, so for that application intermittent power production is not a relevant disadvantage. </span>And the reason your home electrical bill keeps going up i<span class="gmail_default" style="">s</span> because you're competing for electricity with AI data centers<span class="gmail_default" style="">.</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="">I</span>f <span class="gmail_default" style="">H</span>e <span class="gmail_default" style="">W</span>ho <span class="gmail_default" style="">M</span>ust <span class="gmail_default" style="">N</span>ot <span class="gmail_default" style="">B</span>e <span class="gmail_default" style="">N</span>amed would just stop interfering and let the <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><u>F</u></span><u>ree <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">M</span>arket</u> decide for itself if <span class="gmail_default" style="">w</span>ind or solar power installation should be built <span class="gmail_default" style="">or not then </span>your <span class="gmail_default" style="">e</span>lectrical bill would not be going up <span class="gmail_default" style="">as</span> fast.  </b></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><b><br></b></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><b><span class="gmail_default" style="">John K Clark</span><br></b></font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><font size="4" face="tahoma, sans-serif"><b> when it comes to comparing the costs that AI data centers need to pay for electricity, energy storage is not a factor because regardless of where they get their energy <span class="gmail_default">from </span>they can't have <span class="gmail_default"><u>ANY</u></span> interruption of it whatsoever, at the very least they're going to need to operate their data center for several hours on battery power so it can be shut down gracefully and not catastrophically. No matter if you're using gas turbines or nuclear power or solar power or wind power<span class="gmail_default">, </span>you're going to need battery backup. The storage cost is already baked in so the intermittency disadvantage <span class="gmail_default">of </span>solar and wind largely disappears<span class="gmail_default">.</span></b></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><b><br></b></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><b><span class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">John K Clark</font></span><br></b></font><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Trump Is Obsessed With Oil, but Chinese Batteries Will Soon Run the World<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">On Fri, Jan 23, 2026 at 9:50 PM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">> </span></i></span><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Coal plants are not at all complicated.  All the equipment to make those go are with us.</span></i><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Because of advances in technology, coal</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> is no longer an economically competitive way <span>of</span> producing<span> </span>electrical<span> </span>energy<span>. </span> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">A </span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">new <span>new</span> <u>coal</u> </span></b><span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">p</span></u></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">ower plant </span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">would </span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">produce electrical</span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">energy </span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">at a</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> cost</span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">between<span><u> </u></span><u>$69 and $169</u> per megawatt-hou<span>r.</span></span></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">W</span></u></b></span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">ind</span></u></b><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> costs <u>$27 to $53</u> per MWh</span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">.</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">S</span></u></b></span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">olar</span></u></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> costs between</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <u>$38 to $78</u> per megawatt-hour</span></b><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">.</span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Natural </span></b></span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">gas</span></u></b><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> turbines<span> between</span> <u>$48 to $109</u></span></b><span><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">.</span></u></b></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">John K Clark<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">John these are the numbers Californians were told as well.  But the power company disputed them, saying the cost of intermittent unpredictable power generation grows dramatically once the percentage goes over about 15 to 16%.  The costs quoted do not include the cost of energy storage needed to meet reliability specifications.<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">The political literature used comparisons with Washington state, which has the dams on the Columbia River and nice steady reliable wind blowing thru the Columbia River Gorge.  California has nothing analogous to that.<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">We still see examples of the conflation of power generation and power storage, as is seen in the title of this thread, as well as politicization of technology.<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">We learned over the past decade that the power company was telling the truth.  But the truth is more complicated than the subtleties the politicians were able to sell.  In politics, simplicity sells.  In technology, the best solution is often complicated.<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">spike<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
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