<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 28, 2026, 12:19 PM John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Wed, Jan 28, 2026 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"><i>> </i></font></span><font size="4"><i>Efficiency is the amount of useful work per unit of energy.</i></font></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4" face="tahoma, sans-serif"><b>No it is not.<span class="gmail_default"> Efficiency Is the measure of the <u>RATIO</u> between total energy and the energy</span> th<span class="gmail_default">at</span> can be used for work.<span class="gmail_default"> </span></b></font></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="4"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span>><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> i</span>f the "99.953% efficient" (to use your wording) computer performs N computations per watt-second, then the "99.99999999983% efficient" computer performs 3,805,941,691.36N computations per watt-second.</i></font></blockquote><div><br></div><div><b><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4">What the hell?!<span class="gmail_default"> I thought you were over perpetual motion machines and ignoring the Second Law Of Thermodynamics. Apparently not. </span></font></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think you're either unfamiliar with, or aren't understanding, this:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle</a></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><div><b><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><span class="gmail_default"><br></span></font></b></div><div><b><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><span class="gmail_default">John K Clark</span></font></b></div><div><b><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><span class="gmail_default"><br></span></font></b></div><div><b><font face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="4"><span class="gmail_default">John K Clark </span></font></b></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> </div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 28, 2026, 9:10 AM John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Wed, Jan 28, 2026 at 7:59 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="4" face="georgia, serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Do you agree Landauer's limit depends on the temperature of the heatsink?</i></font></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4" face="tahoma, sans-serif"><b>Certainly<span class="gmail_default">,</span> but when you<span class="gmail_default">r heat sink </span>get<span class="gmail_default">s</span> colder and colder eventually you <span class="gmail_default">reach</span> a point of diminishing returns<span class="gmail_default">,</span><span class="gmail_default"> and at 2.7° kelvin that point has been reached because the difference between </span></b><b>0.99353<span class="gmail_default">%</span> efficiency<span class="gmail_default"> and</span><span class="gmail_default"> </span></b><b>0.9999999999983<span class="gmail_default">%</span><span class="gmail_default"> efficiency is too trivial to worry about. It's certainly not worth the trouble of compressing Jupiter into a 20 foot wide Black Hole which, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe would be rather troublesome to do. </span></b></font></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Efficiency is the amount of useful work per unit of energy.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If the "99.953% efficient" (to use your wording) computer performs N computations per watt-second, then the "99.99999999983% efficient" computer performs 3,805,941,691.36N computations per watt-second.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Is not a 3.8 billion fold increase in the number of computations that you can perform for the same unit of energy worth pursuing? It hardly seems trivial to me.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><b style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><span class="gmail_default"><br></span></b></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="4"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>this is just grasping at straws to defend Dyson swarms in the face of better methods having already been demonstrated.</i></font></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4" face="tahoma, sans-serif"><b>If there are better ways<span class="gmail_default"> of producing amounts of power that are <u>LITERALLY</u>  astronomical and keep doing so for billions of years than Dyson spheres I have not heard of them,</span></b></font></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font size="4" face="tahoma, sans-serif"><b><span class="gmail_default"> but I do know one thing, even if they exist they would still have to obey the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, and that means we should be able to observe them. But we have seen nothing.  </span> </b></font></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If they shunt waste heat into black holes (which is thermodynamically optimal) then we wouldn't see anything.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If they run reversible computers (which is optimally efficient) then we wouldn't see anything.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div>
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