<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 5:15 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
> I kind of suspect that copies will not be permitted. You think we<br>
have a population problem?<br>
> Imagine the whole population multiplying by 5, 10, or 1000. One way<br>
this might be done is to limit uploads to those who have stored their<br>
bodies in an inactive state. But I don't know how it will turn out.<br>
> I do find Robin Hanson's em ideas, where endless copies are made to<br>
reduce labor cost, to be disturbing.<br>
<br>
<br>
Before uploading can become a common thing, we're going to have to figure out how to make powerful computing systems run on much less energy than they do now. I'm sure plenty of people have compared the energy requirements of our brains to our current computers.<br>
<br>
Keith Henson wrote:<br>
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<br>
<br>
Given that can be solved, there's no reason why the population of uploads can't be many orders of magnitude greater than the population of biological humans, even on the earth (and of course, uploads will be ideal for colonising space).</blockquote><div><br></div><div>It takes an acre of farmland to feed each person. Over the day, this acre of farmland receives an average of 663,684 watts of solar energy. If we used this energy to directly synthesize food, e.g. with nanotechnology, we could feed 6,853 people for the same acre.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I'd expect the population would reach quadrillions, in the entire solar system. Much more, with mature nanotechnology.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The incident solar radiation on the Moon's surface alone is enough to support over half a quadrillion people (at current biological brain efficiencies).</div><div>The Moon receives 13,000 Terawatts of solar energy. Since the human brain uses 20 watts of power, this is enough energy to power 650 trillion human minds, or 83,000 times Earth’s current population.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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Once uploads exist, I expect there will be a huge jump forward in our understanding of how our minds (and minds in general) work, and I wouldn't be surprised if we soon afterwards have the ability to build them to order, including limited-purpose minds, ideally suited for the kinds of work that Robin Hanson is talking about, without any need for exploitation of any full-scale people (we might well have to devise a classification system for minds, going from fairly simple automata, through current-human level minds, and on to superintelligences).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I recently began an effort to create a taxonomy of minds, across 10 levels. At least in biologically evolved brains, these levels appear progressive: achieving level N implies possession of the abilities at all levels less than N. I welcome any feedback or criticism on these levels. I am very open to revising them if anyone sees a problem with the levels, their order, or if you think any are missing.</div><div><br></div><div>A proposed taxonomy for various levels of minds:</div><div>
<ol class="gmail-wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Reactive:</strong> can respond to stimuli</li>
<li><strong>Stateful:</strong> keeps distinct internal states</li>
<li><strong>Adaptive:</strong> can store memories and learn</li>
<li><strong>Attentive:</strong> maintains a model of the environment</li>
<li><strong>Reflective:</strong> models the self in relation to the environment</li>
<li><strong>Empathic:</strong> models others as entities with their own minds</li>
<li><strong>Contemplative:</strong> thinks about abstract objects and the future</li>
<li><strong>Introspective:</strong> can have second-order thoughts about thoughts</li>
<li><strong>Metacognitive:</strong> has third-order thoughts about nature of thought</li>
<li><strong>Superfluid</strong>: can arbitrarily reorganize itself to experience any qualia</li>
</ol>
<p>A <em>level 1</em> <strong>reactive</strong> mind becomes aware of changes to some environmental variable and triggers an automatic response. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jellyfish">jellyfish</a> tentacle that reflexively <a href="https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/blog/no-brain-for-jellyfish-no-problem/">pulls in prey</a> on contact.</p>
<p>A <em>level 2</em> <strong>stateful</strong> mind not only tracks changes to some environmental variable but also tracks internal states. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nematode">nematode</a> will know when it becomes satiated and will then stop eating.</p>
<p>A <em>level 3</em> <strong>adaptive</strong> mind not only tracks internal states, but can store arbitrary pieces of new information. For example, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee">bees</a> remember visual landmarks to help them find their way back to the hive.</p>
<p>A <em>level 4</em> <strong>attentive</strong> mind not only remembers, but continuously updates an internal model of the environment as new information comes in. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus_musculus_domesticus">mouse</a> tracking how to escape from a maze.</p>
<p>A <em>level 5</em> <strong>reflective</strong> mind not only models the environment, but its model is expansive enough to include a model of the self operating in that environment. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpie">magpie</a> recognizing itself in a mirror.</p>
<p>A <em>level 6</em> <strong>empathic</strong> mind not only models itself, but also models the intentions, motivations, and feelings of other minds. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog">dog</a> that waits until no one is looking before it tries to sneak a treat.</p>
<p>A <em>level 7</em> <strong>contemplative</strong> mind not only models others, but can think about possibilities and situations that don't exist, and thereby plan for the future. For example, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven">ravens</a> will keep <a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/scotttravers/2026/01/28/meet-the-bird-that-can-plan-for-the-future-hint-it-uses-tools-and-trades-for-rewards/">tools</a> for use in future situations.</p>
<p>A <em>level 8</em> <strong>introspective</strong> mind can not only think about abstract situations, but can think about thoughts and the process of thinking. For example, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human">human</a> asking "Why did I just react in that way, what was I thinking?"</p>
<p>A <em>level 9</em> <strong>metacognitive</strong> mind not only thinks about thoughts, but contemplates the nature of subjectivity itself as a phenomenon. For example, <em>you</em> reading this article, trying to understand consciousness.</p>
<p>A <em>level 10</em> <strong>superfluid</strong> mind not only contemplates consciousness, but can realize in itself any qualitative state it wants. No examples are yet known, but a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence">superintelligence</a> able to modify its mind at will would qualify.</p>
<p>Defined in this way, we find several consistent patterns:</p>
<ul class="gmail-wp-block-list">
<li>Species at lower levels emerge earlier in history.</li>
<li>Species at higher levels tend to have larger brains.</li>
<li>Species remain capable of all lower-level functions.</li>
</ul>
<p>This suggests that these levels roughly track the expanding capabilities that minds gained during the course of their evolutionary development.</p>
<p>While there are no present examples of level 10 minds, they may appear in the near future, through developments in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence">AI</a> or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading"><em>mind uploading</em></a>.</p>
<p>A level 10 mind represents a categorically-different level beyond human cognition. The human mind has a comparatively rigid repertoire of qualitative states, fixed by our sensory system and neural architecture.</p>
<p>A superfluid mind, in comparison, can rewire itself on-the-fly to produce in itself any conscious experience. In principle, it could even create a conscious state that contained the qualitative aspects of two different species' brains at once, allowing it to compare and contrast what it is like to be a bat versus what it is like to be a human, in the same way that we can compare and contrast different colors in a single visual scene.</p>
<p>There are, however, difficulties in classifying high-level minds.</p>
<p>It is hard to recognize level 8 and higher minds without a common language. This is because such thoughts are internal, and behavioral indications of these thoughts are subtle -- if present at all.</p>
<p>We can only guess what whales might think and sing about, with brains that are six times larger than ours. Might they contemplate their own thought processes or consciousness? How would we know?</p><p><br></p><p>Jason</p></div></div></div>