<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>On Fri, Jul 17, 2026 at 9:40 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></div><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Keith,</div><div><br></div><div>Reproduction is just making copies, isn't it?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default">Children are not copies.</div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default"> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>And even if we do, make gazilions of copies only in simulations, there needs to be some reproduction in the real world to make more computers to run more simulations.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default">Run away copies will swamp any simulation.</div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>And of course, I predict the qualitative and motivational nature of qualities (of which consciousness is composed) can't be reproduced in abstract simulations of the same (consider the word 'red' verses a redness quality), so I see everything happening in reality, not simulations. But then that might be a minority view in this group where "functionalism" is the popular consensus.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default">I can't parse this.</div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-size:small" class="gmail_default">Keith<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>And how would reproduction, in the absence of death ever be a problem? Have you ever seen the gazilions of galaxies in the <a href="https://bigcanvasartprints.com/products/hubble-ultra-deep-field-endless-galaxies-of-space?variant=44083993149484&country=US¤cy=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23157983237&gbraid=0AAAAAqKBVWOiydS4-Vv-RucvIiiAHsA9N&gclid=CjwKCAjwpefSBhBvEiwAzyEtZ87hKGPRJ-UN0tiginiqBlgEvtMVOmenDh4rc00MXj02qqmrENl3axoCY9IQAvD_BwE" target="_blank">'deep field' image taken by the Hubble</a>? Until we at least fill up the Milky Way galaxy, I don't think we'll ever have anything to worry about. There will never be enough to fill the vastness of space, it seems to me.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 9:50 PM Keith Henson <<a href="mailto:hkeithhenson@gmail.com" target="_blank">hkeithhenson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 3:53 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Keith,</div><div>Moving on to a life form superior to humans isn't really going extinct, is it?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-size:small">If everyone uploads and the uploads don't reproduce, or (somehow) reproduce inside the simulation, then I think a biologist would consider them biologically extinct even if none die.<br></div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">On the other hand, maybe they do reproduce inside the simulation. Tabby's star and the others like it would indicate they might reproduce because what evidence we have indicates they have spread out and population growth would cause that. <br></div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Can we even imagine what reproduction inside a simulation would be like? Talk about designer kids. In "The Clinic Seed" I sidestepped that by assuming no reproduction due to no deaths. Reproduction in a no death world would cause an interesting population crisis even in a simulated world.</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">And do we share computation resources with AIs? Do they reproduce as well? The only SF I have seen that even comes close is Charles Stross's _Accelerando_.</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Keith <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 2:44 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-size:small">20 years ago, I wrote a story that made the case that the very best aligned AI, coupled with human desires, could cause the race to go extinct. Nobody has ever refuted the central idea in that story.<br></div><br>Keith<br></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 11:18 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 16 July, 2026 10:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] AI 2040<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 16, 2026 at 10:29<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>AM <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com" target="_blank">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></span> <u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">Plan<span> A</span></span></u></b><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">>…This Plan, the one they like the best and the one I hate the most, is to coordinate between the US and China to slow the development of AI…</span></b><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Georgia,serif">The notion that the US and China are the AI players that matter understates Israel. </span></i><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">>…Good point.<span> 14 Israelis have won Nobel prizes and that is a huge number for such a tiny country. </span> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">John K Clark<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Ja there is that, but specifically in the area of software development, they are towering giants, never mind brains per capita (is there a Nobel prize for software (there aughta be.)) They figured out how to do some software things that the US couldn’t do, even though we yanks threw a a ton of money at it. In the end, the Israelis won the contract. Their software tech is now part of their Iron Dome. We built the rockets, the propulsion system, the vehicle controls hardware, the kill vehicle, the kill vehicle controls software, the mobile carrier, then Israelis wrote the system level control software and the simulator. <u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">That’s been over 25 years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday. Oh that was a truly bad ego buster for yank controls engineers. They whooped our gentile asses in system-level controls software, beat us in every competition in that category. I was primarily a hardware guy, but I have friends who were most demoralized. One left the company and went to live in Israel. He never wrote to us.<u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">spike <u></u><u></u></span></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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