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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>BillK via extropy-chat<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] Wrong frequency? Astronomers rethink where to hunt for alien signals<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, 26 Jul 2026 at 17:38, <<a href="mailto:spike@rainier66.com">spike@rainier66.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div id="m_6208603938966514229gmail-messages-container"><div id="m_6208603938966514229gmail-message-0c6b9f48-fd3a-453c-81d5-cf2fd067eff7"><div id="m_6208603938966514229gmail-response-content-container"><p class=m6208603938966514229gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>>…<span style='color:black'>If a civilization builds a Matrioshka brain, the ultimate constraint on its processing power isn't energy collection; it's <b>heat dissipation</b>. To avoid melting itself, the outermost shell of the computer must radiate waste heat into deep space</span>… BillK’s AI</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m6208603938966514229gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…I very reluctantly came to this conclusion in about the late 1990s...spike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>---------------------------------------------</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>BillK, do let us recognize the risk that we are breathing our own fumes. Back in the 90s, there was not much info posted about Matrioshka Brains, and nearly all of it was posted on ExIchat. GLM 5.2 and the other artificial hipsters were trained on that material. I was the one who was calculating temperature gradients in an MBrain and posting the results to this forum and another more specialized forum long since extinct. Robert was the one who posted the notiion that GLM 5.2 Deep Think Max parroted back in the passage below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>I asked GLM 5.2 - How can the Matrioshka brain be a cold slow machine and get rid of the sun's heat?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>BillK<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmail-im><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>GLM 5.2 AI Deep Think Max:</span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=gmail-messages-container><div id=gmail-message-487eb960-0538-4fd6-a100-aaa0625d9081><div id=gmail-response-content-container><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>How do you swallow a star—which is pumping out <span class=gmail-mord>3.8</span><span class=gmail-mbin>×</span><span class=gmail-mord>1026 </span>watts of energy—without instantly vaporizing yourself, <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>and</span></em> still keep your computing machinery cold enough to operate efficiently? <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>The answer lies in a concept called <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>thermodynamic cascading</span></strong>, combined with the physics of blackbody radiation. The machine isn't uniformly "cold." It is structured so that the inner parts are incredibly hot, and the outer parts are incredibly cold, using the star's own energy gradient to power the process</span>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>OK then, I agree in principle (and by calculation) that the inner parts get incredibly hot. But this is where I diverge in opinion with Robert and Deep Think Max. That incredibly cold notion is true and not a problem at all, but that incredibly hot business really is a show stopper, a deal breaker. We can run processors at higher temperatures than we do ordinarily, however… there are practical limits because of what high temperatures do to computing circuitry.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>My concern is that future generations (and even current generations) of MBrain theorists will not recognize faulty notions, such as what looks to me like Deep Think Max basing its ideas on Robert’s notion (that I disputed at the time and still dispute now.)<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>…</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>1. The Stefan-Boltzmann Law and "Radiator Mass"</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>To understand how to get rid of a star's heat, you have to look at how things radiate. The Stefan-Boltzmann law states that the total energy radiated by an object is proportional to its <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>surface area</span></strong> and the <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>fourth power of its temperature</span></strong> (<span class=gmail-mord>P</span><span class=gmail-mrel>=</span><span class=gmail-mord>ϵσAT4</span>)</span>…<span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>How well we know. Continue please.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>…</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Because temperature is raised to the 4th power, a radiator that is slightly hotter radiates <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>vastly</span></em> more heat. But our hypothetical aliens want their primary computation to happen at low temperatures (which means slow switching speeds and low energy per bit)</span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Agreed. Continue.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>If you want to radiate <span class=gmail-mord>3.8</span><span class=gmail-mbin>×</span><span class=gmail-mord>1026 </span>watts of waste heat at a frigid temperature—say, 100 Kelvin (-173°C)—you need a radiator of unimaginable size. To radiate a sun's worth of energy at 100 K, the radiator would need to have a surface area roughly equivalent to a sphere with a radius of about 15 AU (out to the orbit of Uranus)</span>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Agree. It might be based on my own calculations from back when I was younger than I am now. Continue please, Deep.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>That sounds impossible</span>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Ja. Do go on, Mr. Max.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>but for a Kardashev Type II civilization, swinging trillions of asteroid-sized radiators into orbit is a trivial engineering task</span>….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>So you say, Deep Think Robert (May I call you Deep Think Robert?) But I disagree, virtual sir, not just on swinging massive radiators being trivial but on the notion that these asteroid sized radiators solve the problem. My claim is that they do not.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>>…<span style='color:black'>The outer shell of the Matrioshka brain is essentially a swarm of giant, superconducting heat pipes radiating infrared light into deep space</span>…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>OK then. My ExI friends, when you read what Deep Think Robert just wrote, do please be aware that it was trained on pure Robert Bradbury. I do mean pure, for he was the one who was writing this stuff back in the mid to late 90s, and asking me to do calculations, which I did, and he rejected. He disregarded everything, including the Bessel function models which showed how hot is “incredibly hot.” He waved away that result as something mere engineers could solve. Being a mere engineer, I disagreed at the time, and being a retired mere engineer, I still disagree now.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I left the rest of Deep Think Max’s commentary in there (below) for your review and reference, but do keep in mind that it appears its virtual attitude is based on Robert Bradbury’s writings from about 1995 to about 2010. I recognize his positions and even some of the specialized terminology he invented, such as negentropy. I see some of the stuff I mighta written at the time, such as that notion of calculation at 5 milliHz (a notion Robert persistently rejected.) I see several Robertisms in Deep Max’s comments, such as his thousands of Kelvin notion. But with anything approaching a Kardashev 2, that inner shell goes to tens of thousands of Kelvin, which spoils our fun.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If any thermal hipsters wish to take this up, do keep in mind my caution of over reliance on AI, for doing so runs the risk you will repeat the mistakes of the geezers (Robert and me, specifically (we need new peer reviewers.)) I will be unable to fool with it now, for I am preparing a road trip to begin the process of moving an elderly relative to California, where we can take care of him. I can offer advice on how to do thermal gradient calculations, but my copious notebooks have been stowed beyond easy access, to clear out room for the elderly relative. A Noble prize awaits!<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Do feel free to post offlist or on. I see no reason to not post it here. MBrains have been a perennial topic of discussion in this forum. <o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As a fun parting shot, note that my calculations from long long ago (but in this galaxy) suggest that everything inside the Bradburyan MBrain (such as…like… the earth) gets cooked to a smoldering blackened crisp. Do prove me wrong (with calculations please (I really want to be proven wrong on that (and will cheerfully hand over a Noble prize.)))<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><b><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><h3><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>2. The Cascading Architecture (The "Waterfall" Model)<o:p></o:p></span></h3><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>A Matrioshka brain is not a single solid shell; it is nested layers, like Russian dolls. It operates like a multi-stage waterfall, where the "water" is usable energy (negentropy). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Layer 1 (The Inner Shell):</span></strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> This shell sits very close to the star. It absorbs the high-energy visible and ultraviolet light. Because it is so close to the star, this layer is incredibly hot (perhaps thousands of Kelvin). At this temperature, it can radiate a massive amount of heat with a relatively small surface area. This layer handles computation that <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>must</span></em> be done quickly or handles high-bandwidth data routing. It uses high-energy, fast-switching hardware.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Layer 2 (The Middle Shell):</span></strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> The middle shell doesn't look at the star. It captures the infrared waste heat radiating outward from Layer 1. It uses this thermal gradient to power its own computation. Because the incoming energy is lower-grade (infrared), this layer operates at a cooler temperature (maybe 500 K). It does slower, more complex processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Layer 3 (The Outer Shell):</span></strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'> This is the coldest, outermost layer. It captures the waste heat from Layer 2. Operating at perhaps 50 to 100 Kelvin, this layer is massive—spanning the distance of our solar system. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>This outer shell is where the "deep thought" happens. Because the temperature is so low, the voltage required to flip a bit (per Landauer's Principle) is microscopic. The computation here is incredibly slow (operating at 5 milliHz, or 1% human speed), but it is thermodynamically perfect. It extracts the very last drop of useful work from the star's energy before it is finally radiated into the void of space as waste heat.<o:p></o:p></span></p><h3><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>3. Reversible Computing (Computing Without Heat)<o:p></o:p></span></h3><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>To further minimize the heat problem, a Matrioshka brain would almost certainly use <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>reversible computing</span></strong> (also called adiabatic computing). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>In standard computing (like the chip in your phone), every time a bit is erased, heat is permanently generated. This is Landauer's Principle. However, if you use reversible logic gates, you don't erase bits; you simply un-compute them. In a perfectly reversible computer, you can run a calculation, read the output, and then run the calculation <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>backwards</span></em> to return the system to its original state. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>By doing this, the only heat generated is from the tiny physical resistance of the wires themselves, which can be brought near zero using superconductors. A reversible Matrioshka brain could perform quadrillions of calculations generating almost zero waste heat, only spending energy when it <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>needs</span></em> to erase information to reset its memory. This allows the outer, cold shells to do immense amounts of thinking without violating thermodynamic limits.<o:p></o:p></span></p><h3><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>4. How the Carrier Wave Fits In<o:p></o:p></span></h3><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Now, let's tie this back to your original brilliant idea: the milliHz signal and the starlight carrier wave.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>If the outer shell of the Matrioshka brain is operating at 100 Kelvin, thinking at 1% human speed, and sending one bit per day, <em><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>how does it modulate the star?</span></em><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>It wouldn't need to put shutters directly in front of the star (which would melt). The inner, hot layers would handle the physical act of shuttering. The outer, cold, slow "mind" would send a signal inward: "Open shutter pattern Alpha for 12 hours, then close for 12 hours." <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The inner, fast, hot machinery executes the physical movement of the megastructure, modulating the star's light. The outer, cold machinery does the slow, profound thinking that generates the 1-bit-per-day message. <o:p></o:p></span></p><h3><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Summary<o:p></o:p></span></h3><p class=gmail-svelte-4sys19><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>The Matrioshka brain gets rid of the sun's heat by being unfathomably large. It wraps the star in concentric layers of radiators, each one larger and colder than the last. The outermost shell, stretching across an entire solar system, acts as a giant freezer. It operates in the deep chill of deep space, thinking slowly and deliberately, perfectly optimized to extract maximum intelligence from the finite lifespan of its star.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>----------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>