[Paleopsych] training

[Geraldine Reinhardt]

All rewards influence behavior.  For example, if you 
were the recipient of a welfare group then what you 
would receive is exactly what you could state in your 
opening message....i.e. something that your p.r. person 
could write to incorporate your good works in terms of 
the local welfare program.

The identical scenario is true for other groups such as 
faith based or even private individuals.  In my 
opinion, this entire thing is lame but there are many 
folks out there who like subscribing to it.

Gerry


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Hovland" <shovland at mindspring.com>
To: "'The new improved paleopsych list'" 
<paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: [Paleopsych] training


> Earned rewards also inflence behavior.
>
> If a welfare check came with a work requirement,
> would that be a desirable influence on behavior?
>
> If someone gets help from private individuals or
> faith-based groups, he has to dance to their tune
> just as much as he would have to dance to the
> government's tune to get help from it.
>
> Steve Hovland
> www.stevehovland.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Christopher 
> [SMTP:anonymous_animus at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:21 AM
> To: paleopsych at paleopsych.org
> Subject: [Paleopsych] training
>
>
>>>Michael, what you may overlook is that any time
> we give people unearned rewards, we are influencing
> their behavior.<<
>
> --As a clicker training fan, I agree. However, when
> you do that, you are sending a covert message, "I am
> the trainer, you are the doggy." That message has as
> much influence, and often more, than the message you
> THINK you're sending. With animals, it doesn't 
> matter.
> You reward them when they do good, and they're happy.
> With humans, it's more complex. Social engineering
> must not be attempted by people who do not have a
> genuine and sincere understanding of the experience 
> of
> the people they're trying to "train".
>
>>>Reward influence behavior; random rewards influence
> random responding and chaos / entropy increases.<<
>
> --Also true. And you have the problem of "too many
> trainers". One authority says "Work hard and 
> prosper".
> Another says "Work hard and stay at the bottom.
> Flatter the boss and rise in rank." There are so many
> signals being sent, that the one you THINK you're
> sending is warped and distorted in the process. You
> are only one of many "trainers". The fallacy of
> thinking you are sending clear signals when the
> environment is warping the signals is very common.
> It's why fathers who try to keep their daughters from
> sleeping around end up pushing them to sleep around.
> It's why people who punish laziness end up inspiring
> avoidance and more laziness. People who don't
> understand reinforcement in practice, relying only on
> the ideological "rewarding laziness is bad" message,
> often produce contradictory results because they are
> relying on theory and not actual experience.
>
> Before you try to "train" any human or subculture, 
> you
> really ought to learn to train a parrot or a dolphin
> or a dog using the clicker method. I'd require that 
> of
> anyone who thinks he's qualified to engineer a more
> responsible society.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
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