[Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts

G. Reinhart-Waller waluk at earthlink.net
Wed Jun 1 19:06:37 UTC 2005


Or maybe free will is allowing one's parter to lead on the dance 
floor.....only performance can determine excellence of ability.

Gerry

Steve Hovland wrote:

>Maybe free will is like leading your partner
>in ballroom dance.  You have to think just
>a little ahead and plan the moves.
>
>Steve Hovland
>www.stevehovland.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	G. Reinhart-Waller [SMTP:waluk at earthlink.net]
>Sent:	Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:12 PM
>To:	The new improved paleopsych list; HowlBloom at aol.com
>Subject:	Re: [Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts
>
>Howard writes:
> >>The free-will debate is an intellectual ruckus over something worth 
>ruckusing about--the question of whether we respond to a conundrum by 
>making a pre-programmed, robotic decision, a decision that the ultimate 
>mathematician or mechanician could theoretically predict, right?  It's 
>the question of whether our not we're kidding ourselves.  We're under 
>the impression  that we have options and that the exertion of some sort 
>of thought, feeling, and  will really does help us make up our mind, or 
>whether we simply pinball automatically down just one predetermined 
>path.  It's a question of what will is and if what we think it is is all 
>wrong.
> 
>Isn't it?  Howard >>
>
>Hi Howard,  I agree that free will is worth all amounts of discourse 
>both favorably disposed and those opinions opposite.  The only groups of 
>people I can think of who are without freewill are those controlled by a 
>strong belief system such as a demanding religion or strong social 
>imperative.  Also could be that a political structure is controlling in 
>that it does not allow its adherents the ability to think for themselves 
>and cloisters them into a group-think.  If one is able to reject the 
>aforementioned groups (religious, social, political) then possibly free 
>will is still free.
>
>Gerry
>
>
>HowlBloom at aol.com wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Sorry it took me so long to answer this.  I puzzled over it 
>>considerably.  Free will is a matter of whether there are choices and 
>>whether the choice we make is determined entirely by prior causes...or 
>>is this what the question of free will is about? 
>> 
>>The free-will debate is an intellectual ruckus over something worth 
>>ruckusing about--the question of whether we respond to a conundrum by 
>>making a pre-programmed, robotic decision, a decision that the 
>>ultimate mathematician or mechanician could theoretically predict, 
>>right?  It's the question of whether our not we're kidding ourselves.  
>>We're under the impression  that we have options and that the exertion 
>>of some sort of thought, feeling, and  will really does help us make 
>>up our mind, or whether we simply pinball automatically down just one 
>>predetermined path.  It's a question of what will is and if what we 
>>think it is is all wrong.
>> 
>>Isn't it?  Howard
>> 
>>In a message dated 5/16/2005 8:28:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
>>dsmith06 at maine.rr.com writes:
>>
>>    Traditionally, the problem of free will is not a question of
>>    whether or not we have choices, it is the question of whether or
>>    not these choices are caused by prior events. 
>>     
>>    David
>>     
>>     
>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>        *From:* HowlBloom at aol.com <mailto:HowlBloom at aol.com>
>>        *To:* paleopsych at paleopsych.org
>>        <mailto:paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
>>        *Sent:* Monday, May 16, 2005 11:19 PM
>>        *Subject:* [Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts
>>
>>        This is from a dialog Pavel Kurakin and I are having behind
>>        the scenes.  I wanted to see what you all thought of it.  Howard
>>         
>>        You know that I'm a quantum skeptic.  I believe that our math
>>        is primitive.  The best math we've been able to conceive to
>>        get a handle on quantum particles is probabilistic.  Which
>>        means it's cloudy.  It's filled with multiple choices.  But
>>        that's the problem of our math, not of the cosmos.  With more
>>        precise math I think we could make more precise predictions.
>>         
>>        And with far more flexible math, we could model large-scale
>>        things like bio-molecules, big ones, genomes, proteins and
>>        their interactions.  With a really robust and mature math we
>>        could model thought and brains.  But that math is many
>>        centuries and many perceptual breakthroughs away.
>>         
>>        As mathematicians, we are still in the early stone age.
>>         
>>        But what I've said above has a kink I've hidden from view.  It
>>        implies that there's a math that would model the cosmos in a
>>        totally deterministic way.  And life is not deterministic.  We
>>        DO have free will.  Free will means multiple choices, doesn't
>>        it?  And multiple choices are what the Copenhagen School's
>>        probabilistic equations are all about?
>>         
>>        How could the concept of free will be right and the
>>        assumptions behind the equations of Quantum Mechanics be
>>        wrong?  Good question.  Yet I'm certain that we do have free
>>        will.  And I'm certain that our current quantum concepts are
>>        based on the primitive metaphors underlying our existing forms
>>        of math.  Which means there are other metaphors ahead of us
>>        that will make for a more robust math and that will square
>>        free will with determinism in some radically new way.
>>         
>>        Now the question is, what could those new metaphors be?
>>         
>>        Howard
>>         
>>        ----------
>>        Howard Bloom
>>        Author of The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into
>>        the Forces of History and Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass
>>        Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century
>>        Visiting Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York
>>        University; Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute
>>        www.howardbloom.net
>>        www.bigbangtango.net
>>        Founder: International Paleopsychology Project; founding board
>>        member: Epic of Evolution Society; founding board member, The
>>        Darwin Project; founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member:
>>        New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the
>>        Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society,
>>        Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution
>>        Society, International Society for Human Ethology; advisory
>>        board member: Youthactivism.org; executive editor -- New
>>        Paradigm book series.
>>        For information on The International Paleopsychology Project,
>>        see: www.paleopsych.org
>>        for two chapters from
>>        The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces
>>        of History, see www.howardbloom.net/lucifer
>>        For information on Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind
>>        from the Big Bang to the 21st Century, see www.howardbloom.net
>>
>>        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>        paleopsych at paleopsych.org
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>>
>>
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>> 
>>----------
>>Howard Bloom
>>Author of The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the 
>>Forces of History and Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From 
>>The Big Bang to the 21st Century
>>Visiting Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York University; 
>>Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute
>>www.howardbloom.net
>>www.bigbangtango.net
>>Founder: International Paleopsychology Project; founding board member: 
>>Epic of Evolution Society; founding board member, The Darwin Project; 
>>founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of 
>>Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, 
>>American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human 
>>Behavior and Evolution Society, International Society for Human 
>>Ethology; advisory board member: Youthactivism.org; executive editor 
>>-- New Paradigm book series.
>>For information on The International Paleopsychology Project, see: 
>>www.paleopsych.org
>>for two chapters from
>>The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of 
>>History, see www.howardbloom.net/lucifer
>>For information on Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the 
>>Big Bang to the 21st Century, see www.howardbloom.net
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>>paleopsych mailing list
>>paleopsych at paleopsych.org
>>http://lists.paleopsych.org/mailman/listinfo/paleopsych
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
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