[Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts
G. Reinhart-Waller
waluk at earthlink.net
Wed Jun 1 19:06:37 UTC 2005
Or maybe free will is allowing one's parter to lead on the dance
floor.....only performance can determine excellence of ability.
Gerry
Steve Hovland wrote:
>Maybe free will is like leading your partner
>in ballroom dance. You have to think just
>a little ahead and plan the moves.
>
>Steve Hovland
>www.stevehovland.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: G. Reinhart-Waller [SMTP:waluk at earthlink.net]
>Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:12 PM
>To: The new improved paleopsych list; HowlBloom at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts
>
>Howard writes:
> >>The free-will debate is an intellectual ruckus over something worth
>ruckusing about--the question of whether we respond to a conundrum by
>making a pre-programmed, robotic decision, a decision that the ultimate
>mathematician or mechanician could theoretically predict, right? It's
>the question of whether our not we're kidding ourselves. We're under
>the impression that we have options and that the exertion of some sort
>of thought, feeling, and will really does help us make up our mind, or
>whether we simply pinball automatically down just one predetermined
>path. It's a question of what will is and if what we think it is is all
>wrong.
>
>Isn't it? Howard >>
>
>Hi Howard, I agree that free will is worth all amounts of discourse
>both favorably disposed and those opinions opposite. The only groups of
>people I can think of who are without freewill are those controlled by a
>strong belief system such as a demanding religion or strong social
>imperative. Also could be that a political structure is controlling in
>that it does not allow its adherents the ability to think for themselves
>and cloisters them into a group-think. If one is able to reject the
>aforementioned groups (religious, social, political) then possibly free
>will is still free.
>
>Gerry
>
>
>HowlBloom at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sorry it took me so long to answer this. I puzzled over it
>>considerably. Free will is a matter of whether there are choices and
>>whether the choice we make is determined entirely by prior causes...or
>>is this what the question of free will is about?
>>
>>The free-will debate is an intellectual ruckus over something worth
>>ruckusing about--the question of whether we respond to a conundrum by
>>making a pre-programmed, robotic decision, a decision that the
>>ultimate mathematician or mechanician could theoretically predict,
>>right? It's the question of whether our not we're kidding ourselves.
>>We're under the impression that we have options and that the exertion
>>of some sort of thought, feeling, and will really does help us make
>>up our mind, or whether we simply pinball automatically down just one
>>predetermined path. It's a question of what will is and if what we
>>think it is is all wrong.
>>
>>Isn't it? Howard
>>
>>In a message dated 5/16/2005 8:28:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>>dsmith06 at maine.rr.com writes:
>>
>> Traditionally, the problem of free will is not a question of
>> whether or not we have choices, it is the question of whether or
>> not these choices are caused by prior events.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* HowlBloom at aol.com <mailto:HowlBloom at aol.com>
>> *To:* paleopsych at paleopsych.org
>> <mailto:paleopsych at paleopsych.org>
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 16, 2005 11:19 PM
>> *Subject:* [Paleopsych] free wills and quantum won'ts
>>
>> This is from a dialog Pavel Kurakin and I are having behind
>> the scenes. I wanted to see what you all thought of it. Howard
>>
>> You know that I'm a quantum skeptic. I believe that our math
>> is primitive. The best math we've been able to conceive to
>> get a handle on quantum particles is probabilistic. Which
>> means it's cloudy. It's filled with multiple choices. But
>> that's the problem of our math, not of the cosmos. With more
>> precise math I think we could make more precise predictions.
>>
>> And with far more flexible math, we could model large-scale
>> things like bio-molecules, big ones, genomes, proteins and
>> their interactions. With a really robust and mature math we
>> could model thought and brains. But that math is many
>> centuries and many perceptual breakthroughs away.
>>
>> As mathematicians, we are still in the early stone age.
>>
>> But what I've said above has a kink I've hidden from view. It
>> implies that there's a math that would model the cosmos in a
>> totally deterministic way. And life is not deterministic. We
>> DO have free will. Free will means multiple choices, doesn't
>> it? And multiple choices are what the Copenhagen School's
>> probabilistic equations are all about?
>>
>> How could the concept of free will be right and the
>> assumptions behind the equations of Quantum Mechanics be
>> wrong? Good question. Yet I'm certain that we do have free
>> will. And I'm certain that our current quantum concepts are
>> based on the primitive metaphors underlying our existing forms
>> of math. Which means there are other metaphors ahead of us
>> that will make for a more robust math and that will square
>> free will with determinism in some radically new way.
>>
>> Now the question is, what could those new metaphors be?
>>
>> Howard
>>
>> ----------
>> Howard Bloom
>> Author of The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into
>> the Forces of History and Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass
>> Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century
>> Visiting Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York
>> University; Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute
>> www.howardbloom.net
>> www.bigbangtango.net
>> Founder: International Paleopsychology Project; founding board
>> member: Epic of Evolution Society; founding board member, The
>> Darwin Project; founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member:
>> New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the
>> Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society,
>> Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution
>> Society, International Society for Human Ethology; advisory
>> board member: Youthactivism.org; executive editor -- New
>> Paradigm book series.
>> For information on The International Paleopsychology Project,
>> see: www.paleopsych.org
>> for two chapters from
>> The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces
>> of History, see www.howardbloom.net/lucifer
>> For information on Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind
>> from the Big Bang to the 21st Century, see www.howardbloom.net
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>----------
>>Howard Bloom
>>Author of The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the
>>Forces of History and Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From
>>The Big Bang to the 21st Century
>>Visiting Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York University;
>>Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute
>>www.howardbloom.net
>>www.bigbangtango.net
>>Founder: International Paleopsychology Project; founding board member:
>>Epic of Evolution Society; founding board member, The Darwin Project;
>>founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of
>>Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science,
>>American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human
>>Behavior and Evolution Society, International Society for Human
>>Ethology; advisory board member: Youthactivism.org; executive editor
>>-- New Paradigm book series.
>>For information on The International Paleopsychology Project, see:
>>www.paleopsych.org
>>for two chapters from
>>The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of
>>History, see www.howardbloom.net/lucifer
>>For information on Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the
>>Big Bang to the 21st Century, see www.howardbloom.net
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
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