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<DIV>The question of free will, as traditionally conceived by philosophers, is
not the question of whether or not we make choices (nobody denies this): it
is the question of whether our choosings are themselves caused by prior
events. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>David</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=HowlBloom@aol.com
href="mailto:HowlBloom@aol.com">HowlBloom@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=paleopsych@paleopsych.org
href="mailto:paleopsych@paleopsych.org">paleopsych@paleopsych.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:42
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Paleopsych] free wills and
quantum won'ts</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Sorry it took me so long to answer this. I puzzled over it
considerably. Free will is a matter of whether there are choices and
whether the choice we make is determined entirely by prior causes...or is this
what the question of free will is about? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The free-will debate is an intellectual ruckus over something worth
ruckusing about--the question of whether we respond to a conundrum by
making a pre-programmed, robotic decision, a decision that the ultimate
mathematician or mechanician could theoretically predict, right? It's
the question of whether our not we're kidding ourselves. We're under the
impression that we have options and that the exertion of some sort of
thought, feeling, and will really does help us make up our mind, or
whether we simply pinball automatically down just one predetermined
path. It's a question of what will is and if what we think it is is all
wrong.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Isn't it? Howard</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 5/16/2005 8:28:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
dsmith06@maine.rr.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>Traditionally, the problem of free will is not a question of whether or
not we have choices, it is the question of whether or not these
choices are caused by prior events. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>David</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:HowlBloom@aol.com
href="mailto:HowlBloom@aol.com">HowlBloom@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:paleopsych@paleopsych.org
href="mailto:paleopsych@paleopsych.org">paleopsych@paleopsych.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 16, 2005 11:19
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Paleopsych] free wills and
quantum won'ts</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>This is from a dialog Pavel Kurakin and I are having behind the
scenes. I wanted to see what you all thought of it.
Howard</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You know that I'm a quantum skeptic. I believe that our math is
primitive. The best math we've been able to conceive to get a handle
on quantum particles is probabilistic. Which means it's
cloudy. It's filled with multiple choices. But that's the
problem of our math, not of the cosmos. With more precise math I
think we could make more precise predictions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And with far more flexible math, we could model large-scale things
like bio-molecules, big ones, genomes, proteins and their
interactions. With a really robust and mature math we could model
thought and brains. But that math is many centuries and many
perceptual breakthroughs away.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As mathematicians, we are still in the early stone age.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But what I've said above has a kink I've hidden from view. It
implies that there's a math that would model the cosmos in a totally
deterministic way. And life is not deterministic. We DO have
free will. Free will means multiple choices, doesn't it? And
multiple choices are what the Copenhagen School's probabilistic equations
are all about?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How could the concept of free will be right and the assumptions
behind the equations of Quantum Mechanics be wrong? Good
question. Yet I'm certain that we do have free will. And I'm
certain that our current quantum concepts are based on the primitive
metaphors underlying our existing forms of math. Which means there
are other metaphors ahead of us that will make for a more robust math and
that will square free will with determinism in some radically new
way.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now the question is, what could those new metaphors be?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Howard</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10">----------<BR>Howard Bloom<BR>Author of The Lucifer Principle:
A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History and Global Brain: The
Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century<BR>Visiting
Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York University; Core Faculty
Member, The Graduate
Institute<BR>www.howardbloom.net<BR>www.bigbangtango.net<BR>Founder:
International Paleopsychology Project; founding board member: Epic of
Evolution Society; founding board member, The Darwin Project; founder: The
Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American
Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological
Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution
Society, International Society for Human Ethology; advisory board member:
Youthactivism.org; executive editor -- New Paradigm book series.<BR>For
information on The International Paleopsychology Project, see:
www.paleopsych.org<BR>for two chapters from <BR>The Lucifer Principle: A
Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see
www.howardbloom.net/lucifer<BR>For information on Global Brain: The
Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century, see
www.howardbloom.net<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>paleopsych
mailing
list<BR>paleopsych@paleopsych.org<BR>http://lists.paleopsych.org/mailman/listinfo/paleopsych<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>paleopsych
mailing
list<BR>paleopsych@paleopsych.org<BR>http://lists.paleopsych.org/mailman/listinfo/paleopsych<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10">----------<BR>Howard Bloom<BR>Author of The Lucifer Principle: A
Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History and Global Brain: The
Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century<BR>Visiting
Scholar-Graduate Psychology Department, New York University; Core Faculty
Member, The Graduate
Institute<BR>www.howardbloom.net<BR>www.bigbangtango.net<BR>Founder:
International Paleopsychology Project; founding board member: Epic of
Evolution Society; founding board member, The Darwin Project; founder: The Big
Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American
Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society,
Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society,
International Society for Human Ethology; advisory board member:
Youthactivism.org; executive editor -- New Paradigm book series.<BR>For
information on The International Paleopsychology Project, see:
www.paleopsych.org<BR>for two chapters from <BR>The Lucifer Principle: A
Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History, see
www.howardbloom.net/lucifer<BR>For information on Global Brain: The Evolution
of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century, see
www.howardbloom.net<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>paleopsych mailing
list<BR>paleopsych@paleopsych.org<BR>http://lists.paleopsych.org/mailman/listinfo/paleopsych<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>