From david at lucifer.com  Sun Oct 12 17:03:29 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:03:29 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] test 1
Message-ID: <074f01c390e2$c2c0a6c0$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

testing 1..2..3


From david at lucifer.com  Sun Oct 12 17:04:30 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:04:30 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] test 1
References: <074f01c390e2$c2c0a6c0$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <076301c390e2$e6dbf7d0$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

test reply

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 1:03 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] test 1


> testing 1..2..3
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From david at javien.com  Sun Oct 12 17:03:44 2003
From: david at javien.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:03:44 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] test 2
Message-ID: <075501c390e2$cbc8a9c0$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

test from unsubscribed address


From david at lucifer.com  Sun Oct 12 20:26:12 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:26:12 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp
Message-ID: <082a01c390ff$1468ab50$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

Please reply to this message when you see it. Note how long it takes to get your
reply back, and reply again with that information.

Thanks!
David


From david at lucifer.com  Sun Oct 12 20:26:55 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:26:55 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp
References: <082a01c390ff$1468ab50$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <083901c390ff$2ddacc80$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

Replying at 4:26 EST.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 4:26 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp


> Please reply to this message when you see it. Note how long it takes to get your
> reply back, and reply again with that information.
> 
> Thanks!
> David
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From david at lucifer.com  Sun Oct 12 20:27:59 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:27:59 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp
References: <082a01c390ff$1468ab50$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
	<083901c390ff$2ddacc80$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <084701c390ff$545ae890$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

Saw this reply immediately (as expected given that the list is hosted on
my mail server :-).

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] rsvp


> Replying at 4:26 EST.


From max at maxmore.com  Sun Oct 12 20:55:18 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:55:18 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp
In-Reply-To: <082a01c390ff$1468ab50$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031012155455.037a0d88@mail.earthlink.net>

Replying at 3:44pm, CST.

Max

At 03:26 PM 10/12/2003, you wrote:
>Please reply to this message when you see it. Note how long it takes to 
>get your
>reply back, and reply again with that information.
>
>Thanks!
>David
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From max at maxmore.com  Sun Oct 12 20:57:53 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:57:53 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] rsvp
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031012155455.037a0d88@mail.earthlink.net>
References: <082a01c390ff$1468ab50$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031012155707.0397a6b8@mail.earthlink.net>

My reply also came immediately -- at least it came in when I checked a 
minute later. (My computer is currently set about 10 ahead, in case that 
confuses anyone.)

Cheers,

Max


At 03:55 PM 10/12/2003, you wrote:
>Replying at 3:44pm, CST.
>
>Max
>
>At 03:26 PM 10/12/2003, you wrote:
>>Please reply to this message when you see it. Note how long it takes to 
>>get your
>>reply back, and reply again with that information.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>David
>>_______________________________________________
>>extropy-chat mailing list
>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>_______________________________________________________
>Max More, Ph.D.
>max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
>http://www.maxmore.com
>Strategic Philosopher
>Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
>_______________________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From david at lucifer.com  Tue Oct 14 02:45:54 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:45:54 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Thanks
Message-ID: <0dbc01c391fd$4a52ce40$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

Thank you for helping test the replacement extropy-chat list.

Be careful to send your test messages to <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>,
not extropy-chat at extropy.org. When the new list is ready to go, the address
will be switched to the latter. Until then, they go to different lists.

Please send a test message and time how long it takes for your message to come
back to you. 

Thanks!
David


From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 14 03:46:32 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:46:32 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Exciting test message!
Message-ID: <017501c39205$cfeb4520$779d4a43@texas.net>

Hey! More fun than Fun with Your New Head! Use only as directed! Slippery on
Curves! Inexpensive but Versatile! Your New List is always So much Fun!



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Oct 14 04:02:04 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:02:04 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Exciting test message!
References: <017501c39205$cfeb4520$779d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000901c39207$ede5e9c0$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> Hey! More fun than Fun with Your New Head! Use only as 
> directed! Slippery on Curves! Inexpensive but Versatile! 
> Your New List is always So much Fun!

I would have just said something like testing, but that's why 
Damien is the writer I guess ;-)

Brett





From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 14 04:06:32 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:06:32 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Exciting test message!
References: <017501c39205$cfeb4520$779d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <019001c39208$9e219320$779d4a43@texas.net>

Seems to have come back within the first minute, but I can't be sure because
Barbara and I were off exploring our senses (no, you brutes, I mean we were
doing Spike's 20 question test).

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Oct 14 06:05:48 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:05:48 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Exciting test message!
In-Reply-To: <019001c39208$9e219320$779d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c39219$36c12090$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


Seems to have come back within the first minute, but I can't be sure
because Barbara and I were off exploring our senses (no, you brutes, I
mean we were doing Spike's 20 question test).

Damien Broderick


Damien makes a reference so obscure, even *I*
need to ask for explanation.  spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Oct 14 08:21:47 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:21:47 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Exciting test message!
In-Reply-To: <000b01c39219$36c12090$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <019001c39208$9e219320$779d4a43@texas.net>
	<000b01c39219$36c12090$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20031014082147.GV8800@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 11:05:48PM -0700, Spike wrote:
> 
> Seems to have come back within the first minute, but I can't be sure
> because Barbara and I were off exploring our senses (no, you brutes, I
> mean we were doing Spike's 20 question test).

Yeah, the new list seems to be realtime (like all lists ought to
be, grumble).

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From jacques at dtext.com  Tue Oct 14 08:21:49 2003
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:21:49 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
Message-ID: <3F8BB21D.7080301@dtext.com>

Est-ce qu'elle re?oit les messages en fran?ais aussi ?

I'll try to report when it comes back to me.



From jacques at dtext.com  Tue Oct 14 08:26:20 2003
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:26:20 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
In-Reply-To: <3F8BB21D.7080301@dtext.com>
References: <3F8BB21D.7080301@dtext.com>
Message-ID: <3F8BB32C.8070802@dtext.com>

That was fast, too (less than 2 minutes). Of course, different 
conditions (like many members) might create problems we cannot see in 
those tests...

JDP wrote:

> Est-ce qu'elle re?oit les messages en fran?ais aussi ?
> 
> I'll try to report when it comes back to me.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Oct 14 10:34:58 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:34:58 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
In-Reply-To: <3F8BB32C.8070802@dtext.com>
References: <3F8BB21D.7080301@dtext.com> <3F8BB32C.8070802@dtext.com>
Message-ID: <20031014103457.GG8800@leitl.org>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 10:26:20AM +0200, JDP wrote:
> That was fast, too (less than 2 minutes). Of course, different 
> conditions (like many members) might create problems we cannot see in 
> those tests...

As you can deliver >1 kMails/minute on vintage hardware,

  http://www-dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de/~ma/postfix/bench2.html

the turnaround on any average-sized mailing list should be instanteous.

If it isn't, there's something wrong with your MTA,
or the system running your MTA.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From jacques at dtext.com  Tue Oct 14 11:59:58 2003
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:59:58 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
In-Reply-To: <20031014103457.GG8800@leitl.org>
References: <3F8BB21D.7080301@dtext.com> <3F8BB32C.8070802@dtext.com>
	<20031014103457.GG8800@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <3F8BE53E.3040501@dtext.com>

Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 10:26:20AM +0200, JDP wrote:
> 
>>That was fast, too (less than 2 minutes). Of course, different 
>>conditions (like many members) might create problems we cannot see in 
>>those tests...
> 
> 
> As you can deliver >1 kMails/minute on vintage hardware,
> 
>   http://www-dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de/~ma/postfix/bench2.html
> 
> the turnaround on any average-sized mailing list should be instanteous.
> 
> If it isn't, there's something wrong with your MTA,
> or the system running your MTA.

Yes, there shouldn't be any raw computing power issue, but obviously 
there was a problem in the first list, so hopefully the tests we are 
doing now, though not representing the range of possible conditions, can 
allow David to identify it and correct it.

Just guessing: wasn't there a problem with HTML email, maybe? Perhaps 
someone could send some HTML email on the new list. (I can't, for 
religious reasons.)

Jacques




From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Wed Oct 15 05:06:23 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:36:23 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JDP [mailto:jacques at dtext.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:52 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
> 
> 
> Est-ce qu'elle re?oit les messages en fran?ais aussi ?
> 
> I'll try to report when it comes back to me.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Wed Oct 15 05:08:30 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:38:30 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE0@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Ah, now that worked fine, and took about 30 seconds turnaround.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:36 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
> 
> 
> Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.
> 
> Emlyn
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: JDP [mailto:jacques at dtext.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:52 PM
> > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
> > 
> > 
> > Est-ce qu'elle re?oit les messages en fran?ais aussi ?
> > 
> > I'll try to report when it comes back to me.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From jacques at dtext.com  Wed Oct 15 07:54:50 2003
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:54:50 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
In-Reply-To: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <3F8CFD4A.3090002@dtext.com>

Emlyn O'regan wrote:

> Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.

Oh, really? Maybe you should send a copy of the email to David to see if 
there wasn't anything special about the message itself.

Let's see this one. (I love testing things.)

Jacques




From jacques at dtext.com  Wed Oct 15 08:02:50 2003
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:02:50 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
In-Reply-To: <3F8CFD4A.3090002@dtext.com>
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
	<3F8CFD4A.3090002@dtext.com>
Message-ID: <3F8CFF2A.1020002@dtext.com>

JDP wrote:
> Emlyn O'regan wrote:
> 
>> Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.
> 
> 
> Oh, really? Maybe you should send a copy of the email to David to see if 
> there wasn't anything special about the message itself.
> 
> Let's see this one. (I love testing things.)

That was immediate, too.

Jacques



From david at lucifer.com  Wed Oct 15 16:09:17 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:09:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <00f801c39336$b01a8170$e400a8c0@frodo>

From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>

> Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.

Was the one that never showed up sent to this list (@lists.extropy.org)
or the broken one (@extropy.org)?


From david at lucifer.com  Wed Oct 15 16:16:38 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:16:38 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] prefix and digests
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFDF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
	<00f801c39336$b01a8170$e400a8c0@frodo>
Message-ID: <010701c39337$b63be9d0$e400a8c0@frodo>

I've temporarily changed the subject prefix of this list
to help keep it distinct for now.

Are people that signed up for the digest getting the digest?

David


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 15 17:39:15 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:39:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE0@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE63jJxWY5pCx00001128@hotmail.com>

Just testing on my end as well..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:08 AM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list


> Ah, now that worked fine, and took about 30 seconds turnaround.
>
> Emlyn
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:36 PM
> > To: 'ExI chat list'
> > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
> >
> >
> > Trying another test; I sent one yesterday and it never turned up.
> >
> > Emlyn
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: JDP [mailto:jacques at dtext.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:52 PM
> > > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > Subject: [extropy-chat] More testing on the new list
> > >
> > >
> > > Est-ce qu'elle re?oit les messages en fran?ais aussi ?
> > >
> > > I'll try to report when it comes back to me.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From ken at javien.com  Thu Oct 16 01:19:04 2003
From: ken at javien.com (Ken Kittlitz)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:19:04 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031015191750.03c414a0@127.0.0.1>

Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it 
arrives...
---
Ken Kittlitz
Vice-President, Javien Canada Inc.
http://www.javien.com



From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Thu Oct 16 02:01:10 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:01:10 EDT
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
Message-ID: <1e5.11a53b22.2cbf55e6@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-15 21:19:18 Eastern Daylight Time, ken at javien.com 
writes:

> Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it 
>  arrives...

This is the only post I've received from the test list so far. Received about 
22:01 October 15th on the EDT.

MB


From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Oct 16 04:04:15 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:34:15 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE7@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

This is the one that never showed up.

Emlyn

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Emlyn O'regan  
> Sent:	Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> To:	Extropy (E-mail)
> Subject:	extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> 
> Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> 
> Emlyn



From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Oct 16 04:09:43 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:39:43 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE8@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Actually, it went to the old list, not the new one. My bad.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:34 PM
> To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
> Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> 
> 
> This is the one that never showed up.
> 
> Emlyn
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: 	Emlyn O'regan  
> > Sent:	Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> > To:	Extropy (E-mail)
> > Subject:	extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > 
> > Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> > 
> > Emlyn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From david at lucifer.com  Fri Oct 17 02:10:05 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:10:05 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
References: <200310161800.h9GI02830486@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <018701c39453$c86981e0$e400a8c0@frodo>

Digest looks OK

Notice the nice table of contents

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:00 AM
Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5


> Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Another Test (Ken Kittlitz)
>    2. Re: Another Test (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
>    3. FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org (Emlyn O'regan)
>    4. RE: FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org (Emlyn O'regan)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:19:04 -0600
> From: Ken Kittlitz <ken at javien.com>
> Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
> To: "ExI chat list \(test\)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031015191750.03c414a0 at 127.0.0.1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it 
> arrives...
> ---
> Ken Kittlitz
> Vice-President, Javien Canada Inc.
> http://www.javien.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:01:10 EDT
> From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Message-ID: <1e5.11a53b22.2cbf55e6 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> In a message dated 2003-10-15 21:19:18 Eastern Daylight Time, ken at javien.com 
> writes:
> 
> > Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it 
> >  arrives...
> 
> This is the only post I've received from the test list so far. Received about 
> 22:01 October 15th on the EDT.
> 
> MB
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:34:15 +0930
> From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
> Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> To: "'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'"
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE7 at adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> This is the one that never showed up.
> 
> Emlyn
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: Emlyn O'regan  
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> > To: Extropy (E-mail)
> > Subject: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > 
> > Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> > 
> > Emlyn
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:39:43 +0930
> From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> To: "'ExI chat list (test)'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE8 at adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Actually, it went to the old list, not the new one. My bad.
> 
> Emlyn
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:34 PM
> > To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
> > Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > 
> > 
> > This is the one that never showed up.
> > 
> > Emlyn
> > 
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Emlyn O'regan  
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> > > To: Extropy (E-mail)
> > > Subject: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > 
> > > Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> > > 
> > > Emlyn
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
> ******************************************
> 


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 17 03:31:39 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:31:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
References: <200310161800.h9GI02830486@tick.javien.com>
	<018701c39453$c86981e0$e400a8c0@frodo>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE404WzT2XJx000003c62@hotmail.com>

OK. I'm a bit confused here. Are we using Extropy-chat-test, or
Extropy-chat? I get messages from both. Also, where are the archives for the
test list if we are supposed to be on that one? Do they both post to the
same archives?
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 9:10 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5


> Digest looks OK
>
> Notice the nice table of contents
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org>
> To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:00 AM
> Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
>
>
> > Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Another Test (Ken Kittlitz)
> >    2. Re: Another Test (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
> >    3. FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org (Emlyn O'regan)
> >    4. RE: FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org (Emlyn O'regan)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:19:04 -0600
> > From: Ken Kittlitz <ken at javien.com>
> > Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
> > To: "ExI chat list \(test\)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031015191750.03c414a0 at 127.0.0.1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> > Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it
> > arrives...
> > ---
> > Ken Kittlitz
> > Vice-President, Javien Canada Inc.
> > http://www.javien.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:01:10 EDT
> > From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] Another Test
> > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > Message-ID: <1e5.11a53b22.2cbf55e6 at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> > In a message dated 2003-10-15 21:19:18 Eastern Daylight Time,
ken at javien.com
> > writes:
> >
> > > Sent from my computer at 19:18 MDT on October 15th. Let's see when it
> > >  arrives...
> >
> > This is the only post I've received from the test list so far. Received
about
> > 22:01 October 15th on the EDT.
> >
> > MB
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:34:15 +0930
> > From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
> > Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > To: "'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'"
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE7 at adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > This is the one that never showed up.
> >
> > Emlyn
> >
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Emlyn O'regan
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> > > To: Extropy (E-mail)
> > > Subject: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> > > Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> > >
> > > Emlyn
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:39:43 +0930
> > From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
> > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > To: "'ExI chat list (test)'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFE8 at adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Actually, it went to the old list, not the new one. My bad.
> >
> > Emlyn
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:34 PM
> > > To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
> > > Subject: [extropy-chat-test] FW: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> > >
> > > This is the one that never showed up.
> > >
> > > Emlyn
> > >
> > > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Emlyn O'regan
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:58 PM
> > > > To: Extropy (E-mail)
> > > > Subject: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > >
> > > > Testing again, really to the new list this time...
> > > >
> > > > Emlyn
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
> > ******************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Fri Oct 17 03:39:47 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:39:47 EDT
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
Message-ID: <18b.20ef87be.2cc0be83@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-16 23:33:08 Eastern Daylight Time, 
kevinfreels at hotmail.com writes:

> OK. I'm a bit confused here. Are we using Extropy-chat-test, or
>  Extropy-chat?


I felt confused also. The link in the subbing email was not the same as the 
link David sent in his email just a bit ago, IIRC.

Also, for this chat-test list, I decided not to go with digest as it took too 
long to know if things were working or not.

I'm not getting anything from the older-Extropy-chat list anymore. Which is 
rather normal. I usually was getting maybe one post out of 10.

Here's the archives for this extropy-chat-test list
http://www.lucifer.com/pipermail/extropy-chat/
I think....

For sure they are different lists. The archives for the older list cover 
September and October.

Regards,
MB


From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Fri Oct 17 03:41:43 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:41:43 EDT
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
Message-ID: <76.3366c571.2cc0bef7@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-16 23:40:14 Eastern Daylight Time, 
MBAUMEISTR at aol.com writes:

> n a message dated 2003-10-16 23:33:08 Eastern Daylight Time, 
>  kevinfreels at hotmail.com writes:
>  
>  > OK. I'm a bit confused here. Are we using Extropy-chat-test, or
>  >  Extropy-chat?
>  
>  
>  I felt confused also. The link in the subbing email was not the same as 
the 
>  link David sent in his email just a bit ago, IIRC.


Wow!  The turnaround time is amazing. :)  It was less than a minute. :)  That 
feels good, it feels right. :)

Thanks, David. I hope this list setup is a winner for everybody, you sure 
have struggled hard enough with it! :)

Regards,
MB


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Fri Oct 17 04:21:55 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:21:55 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
References: <76.3366c571.2cc0bef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008a01c39466$32ffb620$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Just checking out the great turn around time (hopefully :-)

Btw. anyone know the date of the next US Presidential election?

Brett

----- Original Message -----
From: <MBAUMEISTR at aol.com>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5


> In a message dated 2003-10-16 23:40:14 Eastern Daylight Time,
> MBAUMEISTR at aol.com writes:
>
> > n a message dated 2003-10-16 23:33:08 Eastern Daylight Time,
> >  kevinfreels at hotmail.com writes:
> >
> >  > OK. I'm a bit confused here. Are we using Extropy-chat-test, or
> >  >  Extropy-chat?
> >
> >
> >  I felt confused also. The link in the subbing email was not the same as
> the
> >  link David sent in his email just a bit ago, IIRC.
>
>
> Wow!  The turnaround time is amazing. :)  It was less than a minute. :)
That
> feels good, it feels right. :)
>
> Thanks, David. I hope this list setup is a winner for everybody, you sure
> have struggled hard enough with it! :)
>
> Regards,
> MB
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Oct 17 14:27:35 2003
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:27:35 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <18b.20ef87be.2cc0be83@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031017072504.030f11d0@pop.earthlink.net>

Mike and Kevin,

While working out the list issues, and dealing with the ISP, spam, and 
everything, David moved the list to a new server.  BEFORE we make any 
changes to the website, we are testing the list and its new server through 
people on the list, as noted in David's recent email to the list asking 
people to test it.

I did write an email to the list saying that I would send out a memo to all 
former list subscribers when it is sorted out.  Hopefully that will be very 
soon, I think :-)

N

At 11:39 PM 10/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2003-10-16 23:33:08 Eastern Daylight Time,
>kevinfreels at hotmail.com writes:
>
> > OK. I'm a bit confused here. Are we using Extropy-chat-test, or
> >  Extropy-chat?
>
>
>I felt confused also. The link in the subbing email was not the same as the
>link David sent in his email just a bit ago, IIRC.
>
>Also, for this chat-test list, I decided not to go with digest as it took too
>long to know if things were working or not.
>
>I'm not getting anything from the older-Extropy-chat list anymore. Which is
>rather normal. I usually was getting maybe one post out of 10.
>
>Here's the archives for this extropy-chat-test list
>http://www.lucifer.com/pipermail/extropy-chat/
>I think....
>
>For sure they are different lists. The archives for the older list cover
>September and October.
>
>Regards,
>MB
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
----------
President, Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture  http://www.transhumanist.biz
http://www.transhuman.org
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From exi-info at extropy.org  Fri Oct 17 12:58:32 2003
From: exi-info at extropy.org (Extropy Institute)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Extropy Institute "Exponent" Newsletter
Message-ID: <-1747751664.1066395518944.JavaMail.wasadmin@ui1>

Extropy Institute Newsletter
DESIGNER future (10.08.03)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT DESIGN LATELY?

It's about time we did!    Designer business 
strategy, designer stock options, 
designer drugs, designer vitamins, designer babies, 
designer relationships.  This is the wave of the future. 
When I first started taking Kronos's designer vitamins, I 
knew it wouldn't be long before consumers 
requested designer everything. From "Five Gay Guys" 
helping men shape up their aesthetic sensibility, to top 
rated TV programs like HGTV's "Designing for the Sexes" 
and "Sensible Chic", around the corner to customized 
telecommunications systems, we all want to be in the 
design-know-how.  This year, The Cumulus "Value in 
Design" Conference, held in Tallin, Estonia, gathered 
the European and Chinese leading design schools to 
discuss the future of design.  From customized 
furniture and prosthetic designs, to the future of 
cleaning, we experienced the handiness of having it 
just the way we want it for our own specific needs.  
Is this monopolistic?  No.  Not a chance.  What it all 
means is 
that we want to simplify - to make life a little bit less 
trying and a bit more accommodating.  Designer comic 
Jerry Seinfeld pinpoints the design of news "It's amazing 
that the amount of news that happens in the world 
everyday just exactly fits the newspaper."

It's amazing that the amount of everyday spam fits 
exactly into our in-boxes - taking up avilalbe space.  
Speaking of spam and news: ExI's email 
list, "Extropy-Chat," is facing heavy net spam.  "Dave 
McFadzean has tracked 
this back to the policy of the ExI ISP limiting the 
volume of email traffic. The reason for this problem is 
most likely 
due to the individuals
or organizations that are sources of SPAM," advises 
Robert Bradbury.  A plan to resolve the problem is 
scheduled for this weekend.  It looks like we will 
probably 
be moving to a new ISP. When it's all-go, we will send 
a message to everyone from the old "Extropians" list as 
well as the "Extropy-Chat" list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In this Issue: Virginia Postrel's "The Substance of Style" - New Council of Advisor Member Dr. Fiorella Terenzi - EAT Team; and more!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* DESIGNER Markets
* DESIGNER Commerce
* DESIGNER Teams
* DESIGNER Culture
* DESIGNER Aesthetics - Talking to "VP" - Virginia Postrel


DESIGNER Markets
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Virginia Postrel's new book, "The Substance of Style" 
(HarperCollins 2003) takes a long aesthetic look at the 
marketplace of style.  Since when did aesthetics creep 
into Americana?  Did the whole world become stylish, 
thanks to corporate logo design?  Was it a tipping 
point, or a clearly planned strategy 
designed to blend the hard edges and rugged lines of 
perception?

"As soon as the 
Taliban fell, Afghan men lined up at barberships to have 
their beards shaved off.  Women painted their nails with 
once-forbidden polish. Men traded postcards of 
beautiful Indian move stars, and thronged to buy 
imported TVs, VCRs, and videotapes.  Even burka 
merchants diversified their wares, adding colors like 
brown, peach, and green to the blue and off-white 
dictated by the Taliban's ship-wielding virtue police. 
Freed to travel to city markets, village women 
demanded better fabric, finer embroidery, and more 
variety in their traditional garments."

Postrel suggests that the sense of 
things - the look and feel, tone and texture - of our 
environments is substantially more important than we 
give it credit.  These sensorial elements in the form of 
aesthetic structures, have great influence on where our 
culture is heading.  But is 
the high barometer on aesthetics making us a vain 
culture, a new high art elite, or followers of a cookie 
cutter "marthastewartism?"  Postrel argues that the 
enhanced aesthetic appeal is healthy for culture and 
claims that Abraham Maslow's seminal writings 
on psychology which argue that humans have 
a 'hierarchy of 
needs' and will obtain essentials, such as food and 
shelter, before moving on to less vital items, including 
aesthetics" leads to "a false conclusion: that 
aesthetics is a luxury that human beings care about 
only when they're wealthy."



DESIGNER Commerce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What about designer MONEY?  The da Vinci Institute in 
Denver, Colorado is focusing on the future of money.
John Naisbitt, ExI member and long time fellow futurist, 
will be speaking (Currently working on his next book, "A 
World Between Eras").

Design of ORGANIZATIONS: An summary from Max 
More's 
article on "How to Optimize Disorder in Your 
Organizational Culture."  ___"According to the lyrics 
of a '70s song by The Sweet, 'Love is like oxygen: You 
get too much, you get too high; not enough and you're 
gonna die.' Imposed order has the same effect on 
organizational cultures. In the turbulent environment of 
the Innovation Economy, argues Max More, companies 
need to find a dynamic balance between uncontrolled 
change and stifling stability. The drumbeat of 
innovation, agility, and adaptability can be heard 
throughout the business literature, and for excellent 
reason. At the same time, enduring companies just as 
badly need integrity and continuity. How can they 
achieve the right balance?  More answers this question 
in three parts. The first section of this paper 
distinguishes imposed order from emergent order then 
points out five methods for systematically managing 
this mixture: Balanced Leadership; Keep It Simple 
Strategically; Compasses, Principles, and Vision; Know 
Your Network; and Systematic Surrender. In the 
second section, More outlines 8 ways to fortify imposed 
order. These include uncovering and employing 
unofficial hierarchies, defining decision rights, leading 
with clarity, grounding strategy on the few real 
certainties, and pushing systematic innovation 
processes.

The final section assembles 12 methods for 
encouraging emergent order. Far from destroying order 
and unleashing organizational anarchy, these methods 
create conditions conducive to spontaneous 
organization arising at every level of the company. 
These include introducing Innovation Economy 
budgeting processes that support innovation and 
reflect information closer to real-time; using social 
network analysis to strengthen and protect knowledge 
flows; provoking constructive conflict; several ways to 
fend off the cognitive "anchor" bias; using simulations 
to break down inventive barriers and to heighten 
flexible response; attending to failure; calling in the 
CoPs (communities of practice); and experimenting 
with 'pradoxical management.'  Use this 8-page article 
as a cheat sheet crammed with solutions to the 
difficulties of simultaneous change and continuity. You 
can explore many of the approaches through content in 
the relevant topics on ManyWorlds.com."

Is design FUTURE wise?  Designer future advocate Dr 
Patrick Dixon seems to think so in his lectures on 
global trends, designed for those interested in an early 
warning system for their future business and personal 
life. http://www.globalchange.com/futurewise.htm.

John Naisbitt speaking at Future of Money Conference >> http://www.futureofmoneysummit.com

DESIGNER Teams
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(L to R): Jill Tarter: Director of the Search, SETI; Neil 
Armstrong:
astronaut, first human to walk on  the Moon; Lewis 
Branscomb: three time
head of the NSF and Chairman of the President's Space 
and Science Committee

The Telluride Technology Festival is a Celebration of 
the Past, Present and Future of Technology. The Tech 
Fest is based on the historical fact that in 1891, Nikola 
Tesla, George Westinghouse and Telluride's own L.L. 
Nunn built the world's first commercial grade AC power 
plant in Telluride. The intimate mountain environment of 
Telluride, Colorado continues to be an ideal 
environment 
for discussion and reflection.

UNIVERSITY BUSINESS FOR STUDENTS:  Ben Hyink, 
philosophy major at Northwestern 
University, stumbled across Extropy  Institute while 
surfing the net and since then has never looked at 
human potential in the same way. "I 
picked up a saying from the COD leadership program, 
"lead from where you are"; before I move on to 
meta-brain growth research, I want to establish 
systems that will catalyze other students by raising 
awareness of transhumanist ideas and issues on 
campuses and providing tools to assist them in 
networking with professionals and businesses in 
various fields."

As center for catalyzation with a business 
orientation, Ben thinks "Extropy Institute is ideal for 
certain kinds of networking. ExI boasts leaders who are 
prominent in a number of business and academic fields, 
has been covered by numerous media sources, and has 
access to extensive informal networks. That said, 
student applicants to positions posted on ExI's 
networking site will be judged on their own merits. 
What ExI's network will offer businesses and 
professionals is free advertising of positions to a 
pool of people who tend to be passionate, dedicated, 
forward-thinking, and knowledgeable in their fields of 
interest. What the network will offer students and 
people changing careers will be a free resource for 
opportunities to work under established businesses and 
professionals in their field of interest who value 
what they have to offer."  Ben  should have a web 
page finished in less than a 
month. The "Student to Professional 
Networking" web page will have an exciting description 
of 
ExI's networking service and its user benefits, an 
organized list of offers, a section requesting new 
offers from professionals, a section asking 
professionals to join a network of their colleagues, 
and a section requesting the fields that interest 
students using the system and lists such fields.  
"We need to attract and assist professionals and 
businesses, attract and assist students, and develop 
some simple, low-maintenance mechanisms to introduce 
eager students and established professionals to each 
other. The quality will improve with time as more 
efficient mechanisms are developed, a larger pool of 
professionals and businesses offer opportunities in 
more fields and locations, and greater numbers of 
students embrace extropic ideas and seek to 
accelerate 
careers that actualize, protect, or inspire new 
direction for the radical expansion of human 
potential."

Telluride Tech Fest >> http://www.telluridetechfestival.com

DESIGNER Culture
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MoTA, The Museum of Transhumanist Arts, is
curating an exhibition scheduled for 2004.  Multi-
Media/Multi-
Disciplinary - Serious Fiction/Science Fiction is the 
theme for the exhibition ("MMMDSFSF").  MoTA will be 
featuring designers and writers. If 
you are interested in working with the curators, 
contact MoTA.

New Executive Advisory Team ("EAT") members are 
Leigh Christian, Gina Miller, and Ben Hyink:  Leigh's 
background gives her an edge on what works in the 
media, whereas Gina's nano-smarts bring to the fold 
the 
latest nano news. Ben is putting together a culture for 
students who want to learn about the future landscape 
for careers.

George Dvorsky, Deputy Editor and a columnist for 
Betterhumans and President of the Toronto 
Transhumanist Association, will be taking on the role of
Chair of the Conference Planning Committee for the 
TransVision 2004 conference to be held in Toronto, 
Ontario, Canada. George has a history degree from the 
University of Western 
Ontario and continues
to study 19th and 20th century political, scientific and 
philosophical
thought as well as the history of science and the 
Enlightenment. "I'm
primarily concerned with the ethical and sociological 
impacts of
transhumanism and future technologies, and I actively 
promote informative,
honest and open discussion for the purposes of 
education."  Regarding TransVision 2004, George's initial 
tasks include facilitating agreement on the themes for 
the
conference, selecting a venue and dates for the 
conference and procuring at
least three high-profile speakers for the event. Once 
these have been
finalized, a call for papers will be issued.  If anyone 
would like to volunteer to help with 
organizing 
TV04, please
contact Dvorsky at george at betterhumans.com

NEW RELEASE - BOOK! "RAPTURE - How Biotech 
Became The New Religion"
by Brian Alexander.  Brian has been Wired's exclusive 
writer on advances in biotechnology and the evolution 
of the human future. His most famous story on 
biotechnology-a cover article which made the bold 
statement that human cloning was less than a year 
away-created a worldwide stir, launching congressional 
investigations, spurring media outlets such as "60 
Minutes," Time, and CNN to do spin-offs, and prompting 
a strange race among would-be cloners. Interview with 
Brian is scheduled for next month.  You can pickup a 
copy at Amazon.com.  (ExI members mentioned 
throughout the book.)

MoTA >> http://www.transhumanist.biz/mota.htm

DESIGNER Aesthetics - Talking to "VP" - Virginia Postrel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Questions for Virginia: 

___Was there a single incident that spurred your 
interest in aesthetics?

___VP: I wish I could say that there was, because 
everyone 
asks me this question, but it was a gradual process. 
What I tend to do in my work is identify social and 
economic patterns arising from many different 
examples, and that's what happened here as well.  
___Do 
you think that there should be no differentiation 
between "high aesthetics" and "mainstream 
aesthetics"?
___VP: What I find more useful is to think about 
aesthetics that is the equivalent of 
basic science, exploring the envelope of possibilities, 
and aesthetics that is the equivalent of applied 
engineering, producing products ready for market. Both 
are necessary and valuable, but they're different.


___What about building a comparable argument 
for 
science:  Do you think the skills/know-how/aptitude of 
science on a refined, educated level could be available 
for everyone if scientists continue to be (as John 
Brockman claims) the intelligentsia and leading creative 
thinkers?

___VP: I'm not sure I agree with John Brockman on 
this. 
Some 
scientists play some role as public intellectuals. But 
they aren't alone.

___You seem to be saying that the aesthetic 
principle is new and that because of product design, 
advertising, marketing, etc., we are now becoming 
accustomed to aesthetics.   Indeed 
aesthetics is fairly new to America, aesthetics is the 
way of life for Italians and we learned style from Italy, 
with a pinch of France and Japan tossed in.  Comments?

___VP: The intensification of aesthetic applications, 
and 
certainly the spread of aesthetic pluralism, appears to 
be a phenomenon throughout the developed world. 
That said, the trend is much more noticeable in the 
Anglo-American countries, whose pragmatic and Puritan 
heritages have traditionally stigmatized aesthetic 
concerns. Also, as I note in chapter two, the large 
continental free trade zone that is the United States 
encouraged reliable mass production, distribution, and 
marketing ahead of niche specialties. In many parts of 
Europe, for instance, hotels are just now getting up to 
the "best surprise is no surprise" standards of American 
blandness. That doesn't mean the hotels were better 
before; some were charming, but many were just tiny 
dumps.

___You argue that the enhanced aesthetic 
appeal 
is healthy for culture and claim that Abraham Maslow 
whose "seminal writings on psychology argue that 
humans have a 'hierarchy of needs' and will obtain 
essentials, such as food and shelter, before moving on 
to less vital items, including aesthetics" leads to "a 
false conclusion: that aesthetics is a luxury that human 
beings care about only when they're wealthy."  Can you 
elaborate on why that it is important to realize our 
need for 
aesthetics rather than thinking it is only for the chosen 
elitists?


___VP: First, I want people to remind people to think 
in 
terms 
of tradeoffs rather than simple hierarchies. Hierarchies 
make good diagrams, but they don't usually represent 
how life works, either for individuals or for societies.

Second, the trend I'm writing about isn't about luxury, 
as some people have inferred, but about the extension 
of aesthetic content to the broad middle class (and, in 
some cases, poorer people as well). Elites have long 
had access to aesthetics. The aesthetic objects we 
see in museums, including those from the 20th century, 
generally represent the life of a social and economic 
elite, not the general public. By making it easier for 
ordinary people to incorporate aesthetic pleasure and 
meaning into their lives, today's trend represents 
significant economic progress.

Finally, I think romanticism went badly awry when it set 
up art as a category separate from and superior to the 
rest of life. (The flip side, of course, is that "practical" 
people came to see art as silly or deceptive.) Artists 
and designers do have knowledge and skills that the 
rest of us don't, but that doesn't mean their fields 
should be completely inaccessible to people without 
similar training.

___How do you respond to the anti-globalism
sentiment that slams logos and advertising?   How do 
you view 
it?

___VP: The general, non-ideological public distrusts 
advertising 
for fear of being bamboozled. As a result, however, the 
general public is extremely media savvy and has 
developed quite a strong immunity to dubious forms of 
persuasion. The anti-globalists who are recycling Vance 
Packard and Thorstein Veblen are out of touch with 
their own culture, which is why Naomi Klein's book 
doesn't actually make an argument against advertising 
and branding. All she does is demonstrate that there 
are lots of brands and then go on to talk about poor 
labor conditions in Third World factories. Brands, logos, 
and advertising are neither necessary nor sufficient to 
create bad working conditions.

To purchase Virginia Postrel's book >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060186321/qid=1065386355/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6350465-2596132?v=glance&s=books

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quick Links...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Join Now! >> http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm
Directors, Council of Advisors, and Executive Advisory Team >> http://www.extropy.org/directors.htm
Max More's "How to Optimize Disorder in Your Organizational Culture" >> http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.asp?coid=CO95039301825
Best Business News Source on the Web! >> http://www.manyworlds.com://
Brian Alexander's New Book!  Rapture - How Biotech Became The New Religion >> http://www.amazon.com
More About Us >> http://www.extropy.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
email: natasha at natasha.cc
voice: Natasha Vita-More, President (512.263.2749)
web: http://www.extropy.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This email was sent to natasha at natasha.cc,
by Extropy Institute.

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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 22:21:17 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:21:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] TEST
Message-ID: <Law10-OE25LzwrndDOI00004789@hotmail.com>

OK. I sent a message last night and I still don't see it on the BBS and I never received a copy. I am just testing.





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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 22:30:33 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:30:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Fw: AI and prescience
Message-ID: <Law10-OE52BPeSQMA9K000046d7@hotmail.com>



Well,

I just picked up Damien's "The Spike". I just started it last night, but as soon as I started reading a thought occurred. I'm not sure if it was his book that started this train of thought, or if it just came to mind since I just finished re-reading Chapterhouse: Dune.

Here's the thought:

If posthumans were linked together in a network with our minds linked to data storage units to augment our memory, AND

If an AI existed with far superior abilities to the human mind and it was feeding back on itself, AND

If enough data were available, would that AI be capable of predicting the future in either a "prescient" sort of way such as Leto II, or in a psychohistorical way like Hari Seldon in Foundation?

Would we no longer have free will?

It seems to me that given a sufficiently powerful AI with the ability to gather all of the available information on motivations, there may be a possibility of a major problem here. Of course, there are still random factors such as when I was nailing a baseboard in today, the nail broke off and part of it hit me in the face. If it would have blinded me it would have drastically changed my life.

So you can't predict such small things and larger events are just combinations of the small things. But with other matters, they may have these abilities.

Kevin Freels



Kevin Freels
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From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Mon Oct 20 08:56:10 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:26:10 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Intelligent Spammers (was FW: [>Htech] Stealing
	Cycles from Human s (fwd from kra@monkey.org))
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFFE@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Eugene posted this to Transhumantech today. The article is interesting, but
the last paragraph below really show how intelligent spammers can be - it's
lateral thinking at its best. Don't think that any simple technique is going
to finish them for good!

Emlyn

> From: Karl Anderson <kra at monkey.org>
> Date: 20 Oct 2003 00:23:32 -0700
> To: fork at xent.com
> Subject: Stealing Cycles from Humans
> Organization: Ape Mgt.
> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.7
> 
> 
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03278/228349.stm
> 
> 
> "The players may not realize it, but the lists of descriptive 
> words that they're generating could eventually be used by 
> search engines such as Google to improve Internet searches for images.
> 
> They also are doing something that no computer program has 
> ever managed to accomplish: analyzing an image and accurately 
> describing it in words.
> 
> In effect, what von Ahn is creating with his game is a giant, 
> special-purpose supercomputer that uses human brains to do 
> the computing. And the 24-year-old von Ahn, a graduate 
> student in computer science at Carnegie Mellon University, 
> says this approach, which he calls "Stealing Cycles from 
> Humans," could be applied to a wide variety of problems that 
> are too great for any individual but also beyond the 
> capabilities of conventional computers."
> 
> 
> 
> "The CAPTCHA tests are simple for humans to pass, but hard 
> for computers. A typical test features a word with fuzzy or 
> distorted letters, or words overlapping each other, or a word 
> superimposed on a complex background; visitors to the site 
> are asked to type a word they see. Yahoo began using the 
> CAPTCHAs on its Web registration form several years ago; 
> other Web sites quickly copied the idea.
> 
> But at least one potential spammer managed to crack the 
> CAPTCHA test. Someone designed a software robot that would 
> fill out a registration form and, when confronted with a 
> CAPTCHA test, would post it on a free porn site. Visitors to 
> the porn site would be asked to complete the test before they 
> could view more pornography, and the software robot would use 
> their answer to complete the e-mail registration."
> 
> -- 
> Karl Anderson      kra at monkey.org           http://monkey.org/~kra/
> _______________________________________________
> FoRK mailing list
> http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> 



From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Mon Oct 20 08:59:16 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:29:16 +0930
Subject: oh, and the matrix sucked... RE: [extropy-chat-test] Intelligent 
	Spammers (was FW: [>Htech] Stealing Cycles from Human s (fwd from
	kra@mon key.org))
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFDFFF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

>From the url below...

"As he sees it, the "Matrix" movies have it all wrong. Machines would never
tap people as an energy source, because people actually consume energy. But
they might well tap people for cognitive abilities that machines can't
duplicate."

Totally out of context, but I couldn't resist it. What a stupid movie.

Emlyn
(but I really liked Keanu's leather jacket)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emlyn O'regan [mailto:oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au]
> Sent: Monday, 20 October 2003 6:26 PM
> To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
> Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Intelligent Spammers (was FW: [>Htech]
> Stealing Cycles from Human s (fwd from kra at monkey.org))
> 
> 
> Eugene posted this to Transhumantech today. The article is 
> interesting, but
> the last paragraph below really show how intelligent spammers 
> can be - it's
> lateral thinking at its best. Don't think that any simple 
> technique is going
> to finish them for good!
> 
> Emlyn
> 
> > From: Karl Anderson <kra at monkey.org>
> > Date: 20 Oct 2003 00:23:32 -0700
> > To: fork at xent.com
> > Subject: Stealing Cycles from Humans
> > Organization: Ape Mgt.
> > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.7
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03278/228349.stm
> > 
> > 
> > "The players may not realize it, but the lists of descriptive 
> > words that they're generating could eventually be used by 
> > search engines such as Google to improve Internet searches 
> for images.
> > 
> > They also are doing something that no computer program has 
> > ever managed to accomplish: analyzing an image and accurately 
> > describing it in words.
> > 
> > In effect, what von Ahn is creating with his game is a giant, 
> > special-purpose supercomputer that uses human brains to do 
> > the computing. And the 24-year-old von Ahn, a graduate 
> > student in computer science at Carnegie Mellon University, 
> > says this approach, which he calls "Stealing Cycles from 
> > Humans," could be applied to a wide variety of problems that 
> > are too great for any individual but also beyond the 
> > capabilities of conventional computers."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "The CAPTCHA tests are simple for humans to pass, but hard 
> > for computers. A typical test features a word with fuzzy or 
> > distorted letters, or words overlapping each other, or a word 
> > superimposed on a complex background; visitors to the site 
> > are asked to type a word they see. Yahoo began using the 
> > CAPTCHAs on its Web registration form several years ago; 
> > other Web sites quickly copied the idea.
> > 
> > But at least one potential spammer managed to crack the 
> > CAPTCHA test. Someone designed a software robot that would 
> > fill out a registration form and, when confronted with a 
> > CAPTCHA test, would post it on a free porn site. Visitors to 
> > the porn site would be asked to complete the test before they 
> > could view more pornography, and the software robot would use 
> > their answer to complete the e-mail registration."
> > 
> > -- 
> > Karl Anderson      kra at monkey.org           http://monkey.org/~kra/
> > _______________________________________________
> > FoRK mailing list
> > http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Oct 20 09:30:10 2003
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:30:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] AI sues to save its life
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310201128000.3136@hercules>


I still haven't read all of it, but here is the URL:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0594.html

It's a fiction trial about a conscious AI trying to avoid shutdown.

Ciao,
Alfio



From david at lucifer.com  Mon Oct 20 18:01:50 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:01:50 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] TEST
References: <Law10-OE25LzwrndDOI00004789@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c39734$3ccf54a0$761ec918@lucifer.com>

kevinfreels at hotmail.com wrote:
> OK. I sent a message last night and I still don't see it on the BBS
> and I never received a copy. I am just testing. 

This list is not archived on the BBS because we're still testing.

Did you ever get a copy of the message you sent? Are there still problems with the list? 

David


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 20 21:06:33 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:06:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] TEST
Message-ID: <Law10-F33MjkatwD43o00000445@hotmail.com>

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From david at lucifer.com  Mon Oct 20 21:31:12 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:31:12 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
References: <Law10-F33MjkatwD43o00000445@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <030801c39751$7c1f7f50$761ec918@lucifer.com>

If there are no objections, I would like to replace the extropy-chat list
with this test list this week.

David


From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Mon Oct 20 21:35:25 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:35:25 EDT
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
Message-ID: <18.36cdb572.2cc5af1d@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-20 17:31:24 Eastern Daylight Time, 
david at lucifer.com writes:

> If there are no objections, I would like to replace the extropy-chat list
>  with this test list this week.

 I certainly have no objections - this is the only Extropy list I hear from 
with any consistency. :)

Today I received a Digest from Extropy-chat - not this test list....  Digest 
#29. Only where are #27 and #28? Dunno!

I know I don't contribute much, but I do read and learn. 

Regards,
MB


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 20 22:05:14 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:05:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
References: <Law10-F33MjkatwD43o00000445@hotmail.com>
	<030801c39751$7c1f7f50$761ec918@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE29Rqf69aZbL00009c6e@hotmail.com>

Fire away!!!!!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?


> If there are no objections, I would like to replace the extropy-chat list
> with this test list this week.
> 
> David
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Oct 21 02:37:22 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:22 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
References: <Law10-F33MjkatwD43o00000445@hotmail.com>
	<030801c39751$7c1f7f50$761ec918@lucifer.com>
	<Law10-OE29Rqf69aZbL00009c6e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301c3977c$415da1a0$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Bang!

----- Original Message -----
From: <kevinfreels at hotmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?


> Fire away!!!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
> To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:31 PM
> Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
>
>
> > If there are no objections, I would like to replace the extropy-chat
list
> > with this test list this week.
> >
> > David
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Tue Oct 21 03:07:54 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:54 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE002@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Don't say that on the extropians list! 

Emlyn
(ducks and covers)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Paatsch [mailto:bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 October 2003 12:07 PM
> To: ExI chat list (test)
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
> 
> 
> Bang!
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kevinfreels at hotmail.com>
> To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
> 
> 
> > Fire away!!!!!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David McFadzean" <david at lucifer.com>
> > To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:31 PM
> > Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
> >
> >
> > > If there are no objections, I would like to replace the 
> extropy-chat
> list
> > > with this test list this week.
> > >
> > > David
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Tue Oct 21 03:46:52 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:46:52 EDT
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
Message-ID: <1cb.12dca0dd.2cc6062c@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-20 22:33:15 Eastern Daylight Time, 
bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au writes:

> Bang!
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: <kevinfreels at hotmail.com>
>  To: "ExI chat list (test)" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>  Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:05 AM
>  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
>  
>  
>  > Fire away!!!!!


Oh, D*mn!  I never got Kevin's message which you quote here.  I've looked and 
looked, it is simply NOT in my inbox.

Regards,
MB


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 21 19:19:40 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:19:40 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] AI sues to save its life
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310201128000.3136@hercules>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE52Tziwi7Qf4000006f5@hotmail.com>

Would this AI be able to support itself? If so, she could make arrangements
to pay her creators for creating her. Then she could "move out" and pay for
her own life-support...Just like anyone else. She's already demonstrated an
ability to earn an income. Why should the company be responsible for
maintaining her life support indefinitely? Would we set limits on computer
"maturity" like we do with the 18 and 21 yearl old humans?
Once you go down the road to treating them like humans, lots of things
become interesting. They would have to be allowed to own property, but would
be eligible for the draft.
They could hire people to come in and maintain them, and  thus would become
part of the economy. They could even have children!
They could vote and maybe even run for office. A significant number of them
would comprise an important voting block and would have politicians
pandering to their needs in return for funding of their campaigns.
Surely they'll get bored sitting around in a box and want to get out and
"see" the world. They'll be trying to work themselves into a body at the
same time we're trying to get into a computer.
Wow, this could become very interesting indeed. No doubt these things have
already been discussed here, but I am new nad every day I am amazed at the
possibilities of the future.
Would an SI eventualy develop at least a limited prescient ability such as
Hari Seldon's psychohistory? Or even as Leto II in Dune?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfio Puglisi" <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 4:30 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] AI sues to save its life


>
> I still haven't read all of it, but here is the URL:
>
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0594.html
>
> It's a fiction trial about a conscious AI trying to avoid shutdown.
>
> Ciao,
> Alfio
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Oct 22 00:53:07 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:53:07 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ingoing three arrows time test wed 10.47am Melb
	Oz time; 
Message-ID: <014501c39836$db8fdbc0$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

a little lesson from rommel on the road to 'remagen' (I think).




From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 22 17:28:32 2003
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:28:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] AI sues to save its life
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE52Tziwi7Qf4000006f5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20031022172832.98320.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com>

--- kevinfreels at hotmail.com wrote:

<snip stuff about "What is life and consciousness,
really?">

> No doubt these things have already been discussed
here, but I am new nad every day I am amazed at the
possibilities of the future.


I'm oldish (unless you're thinking ten-thousand-year
lifespan, in which case, I'm barely embryonic) and--me
too-- every day I am amazed at the possibilities of
the future.

Best, Jeff Davis

      "We don't see things as they are, 
             we see them as we are." 
                        Anais Nin


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 25 22:41:33 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:41:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] NANO: Questions
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE40vv9W0HsMq0000c265@hotmail.com>


After being on the list for a few months, I find that I am still playing catch-up. (ketchup:-)

Currently I am reading Damien's book "The Spike" and absorbing as much as possible by Googling. It seems that I am finding lots of speculation about what it will mean and what the benefits are, but there are a few things I am having serious trouble with.
To begin with, where is  the bulk of the assembler research being conducted? Is it primarily colleges that rely on research grants, or are there big corporations working on it?
As far as assemblers go, is there anyone working on a non-nano means of assembling at the molecular level that is faster and more efficient than an STM? It seems to me that this would be an intermediate step, maybe making a machine capable of building something simple like water in a usable quantity. 
Finally, and this is a bit off the mark, but how does money move in this sort of research? If a bunch of people in a college come up with a new technology such as the first assembler, who gets the patent? How does that technology make it into the market? Do others create it from scratch and get their own patents on "similar" devices, or do they sell the patents? 
Between now and the time that the first "Genie in a box" is available, there is still a need for money and I'm curious about how I can set myself up to gain from it.
Thanks!
Kevin Freels
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From thespike at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 26 00:41:43 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:41:43 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] NANO: Questions
References: <LAW10-OE40vv9W0HsMq0000c265@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c39b59$ef49ed60$cf994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: <kevinfreels at hotmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:41 PM

>Currently I am reading Damien's book "The Spike" and absorbing as much as
possible by Googling. It seems that I am finding lots of speculation about
what it will mean and what the benefits are, but there are a few things I am
having serious trouble with.
To begin with, where is  the bulk of the assembler research being conducted?

See pp. 151-154 for some hints. Google Zyvex.

Damien Broderick



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Mon Oct 27 07:54:31 2003
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:54:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Test - dont bother reading
Message-ID: <3F9CCF37.4050802@mail.tele.dk>

Is this working now? And am I online? is it the matrix or the real 
world. What does Popper say?



From david at lucifer.com  Tue Oct 28 12:53:21 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:53:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat-test] Test - dont bother reading
References: <3F9CCF37.4050802@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <213601c39d52$77b3b150$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Max M" <maxm at mail.tele.dk>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:54 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] Test - dont bother reading


> Is this working now? And am I online? is it the matrix or the real 
> world. What does Popper say?

Yes, the extropy-chat list has been moved to a different ISP
and now resides at lists.extropy.org to fix the mail delivery
problems. Messages to the list should be sent to <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
(though the old address should be automatically forwarded).

If you have any problems, please contact me at david at lucifer.com.

David


From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Oct 28 15:49:09 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:49:09 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List Moderation
In-Reply-To: <213601c39d52$77b3b150$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>
Message-ID: <000101c39d6b$07203a80$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

Subject: META:  List Moderation

List members:

Please be careful about claiming ad hominem attacks that cannot be
substantiated.  If anyone was taken off the former list or this list, it
was and will be due to an ad hominem attack and 3 complaints by list
subscribers or moderators.

List Moderators
Extropy-chat at extropy.org



From scerir at libero.it  Tue Oct 28 19:01:56 2003
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:01:56 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] tests
References: <000101c39d6b$07203a80$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <000601c39d85$f5d31b10$f4b41b97@administxl09yj>

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

                               %

As it turns out, the two o's in the symbol % do not derive from the 
two zeroes in 100. Rather, the two o's evolved from the 'c' and the
'o' in the Italian expression "per cento" [x 100]. This arose in 
an [of course] Italian manuscript of the 1425 (circa). 

http://www.roma.unisa.edu.au/07305/symbols.htm#Percent

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

                      surdus & ab-surdus

Al-Khowarizmi (Baghdad, circa 825) referred to rational and irrational
numbers as 'audible' and 'inaudible', (D.E. Smith, History of Mathem.,
vol. 2, 1925, page 252). In translating the Greek term 'alogos' into 
Arabic, Al-Khowarizmi chose the expression 'jathr asamm', literally 
'deaf root'. His choice emphasized the earlier Greek connotations of 
'alogos' [without words, inexpressible, ineffable] instead of the 
later ones [without reason, without ratio]. Then, when the works 
of Al-Khowarizmi were translated into Latin, the Latin word 'surdus' 
[deaf] was called into play. D.E. Smith states that the first known 
European to adopt this terminology was Gherardo of Cremona (circa 1150)
who adopted 'surde' [deaf, silent, stupid] instead of 'surdus'.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%




From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Tue Oct 28 20:07:50 2003
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:07:50 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Economy of abudance
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310282105350.23328@hercules>


In this short essay:

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031007.gtdejageroct7/BNStory/Technology/

Peter de Jager writes some random thoughts about technology replacing
scarcity with abundance. He just poses some light questions, with no
answers. Nothing to see for list members, but I'm glad that these issues
are slowly making it out to mainstream media.

Ciao,
Alfio


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 28 20:19:14 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:19:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Economy of abudance
Message-ID: <57050-220031022820191422@M2W054.mail2web.com>


From: Alfio Puglisi 


>In this short essay:

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031007.gtdejageroct7/BN
Story/Technology/

Peter de Jager writes some random thoughts about technology replacing
scarcity with abundance. He just poses some light questions, with no
answers. Nothing to see for list members, but I'm glad that these issues
are slowly making it out to mainstream media.<


He certainly approaches a big subjects in household terms.

Natasha



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 28 22:42:36 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:42:36 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] re: SINGULARITY: Bezos pulls a rabbit out of his hat
Message-ID: <010901c39da4$cb35bd80$9a994a43@texas.net>

Amusement of a rather rarefied kind can be had by, for example, asking
amazon to check restaurants for D-branes. To my gratification, I found three
places that allegedly serve this tasty item from superstring theory.

Damien Broderick



From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Wed Oct 29 01:01:48 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:31:48 +1030
Subject: META ?? RE: [extropy-chat] re: SINGULARITY: Bezos pulls a rabbit 
	out of his hat
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE01D@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

What is this replying to? I don't have any other messages with this subject
line.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Broderick [mailto:thespike at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 8:13 AM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [extropy-chat] re: SINGULARITY: Bezos pulls a rabbit 
> out of his
> hat
> 
> 
> Amusement of a rather rarefied kind can be had by, for example, asking
> amazon to check restaurants for D-branes. To my 
> gratification, I found three
> places that allegedly serve this tasty item from superstring theory.
> 
> Damien Broderick
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From scerir at libero.it  Wed Oct 29 07:53:11 2003
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:53:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] microgenerator
References: <010901c39da4$cb35bd80$9a994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000301c39df1$b4c73860$a3c21b97@administxl09yj>

http://www.aip.org/mgr/png/2003/204.htm

"An electrical micro-generator might provide electric power for
portable microscale devices.  At a modern power station, high
pressure fluids (water, steam, or gas) are dashed against turbine
blades, thus turning a shaft which cranks out electricity.  At an
MIT lab, all of this is done on a centimeter-size scale.   At an
upcoming meeting of the AVS Science and Technology Society in
Baltimore, Carol Livermore will describe a micromotor with a 4-mm
rotor which puts out 20 milliwatts of power, far more power than any
other existing rotating micromotor.  The motor may be incorporated
into a microscale gas turbine generator.  This is, in effect, a tiny
jet engine: air and gas mix in a small combustion chamber and the
resultant explosion powers the turbine.  The MIT researchers
expect that soon the output will be at the level of 300 volts, and 
1 watt of mechanical power or 0.5 watt of electrical power.  
The device might not yet be as compact as the best micro-batteries
currently available, but it will be able to do what batteries
cannot, namely supply power over long periods."  

paper MM-TuA3, by Carol Livermore, livermor at mit.edu 
meeting will be held November 2-7  
website at http://www.avs.org/symposium/baltimore/default.asp  
general art. at http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-7/iss-6/p20.pdf 




From scerir at libero.it  Wed Oct 29 11:09:48 2003
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:09:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] microgenerator
References: <010901c39da4$cb35bd80$9a994a43@texas.net>
	<000301c39df1$b4c73860$a3c21b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <000301c39e0d$2b2e8ba0$e2bb1b97@administxl09yj>

Ii is also possible to couple mechanical and charge motion
together in subtle and interesting ways, with NEMS.
In example: the mechanical charge shuttle which seems to be
an electro-mechanical transistor, but, perhaps, also an 
engine (???). Oscillations of a 'clapper' periodically alter 
tunneling barriers between an electron island and a source/drain.
Result is a pumping of a charge due to mechanical motion.
At room temperature: ~ 1000 electrons per oscillation are 
pumped. At 4.2 K: ~ 0.11 electrons per oscillation are pumped.
If the system were sufficiently fine-tuned, it should be 
possible to get a single electron pumping even at room temperature.

http://www.nano.physik.uni-muenchen.de/report/rep01/part4.html#SHUTTLE

short ^

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2630/4/1/386/nj2186.html

nice ^

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0011/0011429.pdf

first paper ^

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/9904/9904149.pdf

math ^
 
http://fy.chalmers.se/~nord/files/lic.pdf.

general  ^





From amara at amara.com  Wed Oct 29 11:10:20 2003
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:10:20 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] article: Who Controls Your Health Care? (Shape
	magazine)
Message-ID: <p05100300bbc49d25ce9a@[150.146.134.133]>

A topic to be aware

article "Who Controls Your Health Care?" by Lisa Lombardi
Shape magazine, July 2003
(American edition)


In Lombardi's article, she describes the practices of Catholic and
other faith-based hospitals, presenting some alarming stories about
what these hospitals will and will not do for the health of women
patients.

The first example she gave was a pregnant woman whose water broke
while she was carrying only a 13-week-old fetus and she needed to
abort it, otherwise she would put herself at risk for contracting a
dangerous and potentially lethal infection of the uterus. The nearby
hospital could not perform the emergency procedure, because the
procedure would have been considered a 'normal' abortion (because
she did not (yet) have an infection), and therefore, not permitted
under the (Catholic) hospital's rules. On the other hand, if she had
developed a potentially lethal infection, then they would have
performed the procedure. In this woman's case, her choices were to
wait until her life was threatened and then go to the nearby
hospital, or else go to the more distant (nonCatholic) hospital
immediately, have the procedure, and save herself while she still could.
She did the latter. The author presents several stories of this type:
that is, the health of the patient is sacrificed while waiting for
the patient to develop a condition that would be life-threatening
'enough' for the doctor(s) to perform the life-saving surgery. For
many doctors, this would be a breach of medical ethics.

Another story that the author presented regarded the squishy
definition of pregnancy. Doctors define pregnancy as a fertilized
egg implanted in the uterine wall having grown to such a stage that
it would show positive on a pregnancy test. Catholic theology
defines conception as occurring when the egg is fertilized, which
unless already implanted in the uterine wall and growing, wouldn't
show up on a pregnancy test. If a woman is raped, but conception is
not detectable yet, then a Catholic-based hospital will not perform
a procedure to remove the egg.

Catholic health-care institutions (small hospitals to large medical
centers) in the U.S. follow "Ethical and Religious Directives for
Catholic Health Care Services," which give rules established by the
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. These rules limit many
reproductive procedures including emergency services. If you are
depending on a particular hospital or hospitals, you should find out
if your hospital is under Catholic oversight. Apparently about 15%
of the US's community hospitals are run, following these rules. In
the last ten years, 171 non-Catholic hospitals in the US have merged
with Catholic hospitals and health-care organizations, so you would
be wise to check.

The procedures that are usually restricted in Catholic health-care
systems: Contraception, Abortion, Direct sterilization, even if
the mother's health is at risk. Also certain assisted reproductive
services, such as in vitro fertilization, artificial insemination and
any other fertility treatment that separates "procreating from the
marital act." (However fertility testing and fertility drugs are
permitted.)

Lombardi's article is aimed towards women living in the US, but I would
guess these kinds of rules apply in other countries' Catholic
hospitals too. Some countries simply make some of these procedures
illegal. Abortion is flat-out illegal, I think, in Spain, Portugal
and Ireland.

In Italy, artificial insemination by an unknown donor sperm is illegal;
(i.e. sperm banks) the sperm must be from the husband or permanent
partner  of the would-be mother. If that sounds absurd, then look at
more absurdities:  if a woman/couple wishes to adopt a baby instead,
then there are restrictive laws about that too: she/they cannot be
older than 45 years to adopt a baby, for example.

Amara
-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"What I find most disheartening is the thought that somewhere out there
our galaxy has been deleted from somebody else's sample."
   -- Alec Boksenberg [on the occasion of his 60th birthday celebration]


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Oct 29 15:39:38 2003
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:39:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] article: Who Controls Your Health Care?
	(Shape magazine)
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bbc49d25ce9a@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031029073704.02e1b040@pop.earthlink.net>

At 01:10 PM 10/29/03 +0200, Amara wrote:

>A topic to be aware
>
>article "Who Controls Your Health Care?" by Lisa Lombardi
>Shape magazine, July 2003
>(American edition)
>
>
>In Lombardi's article, she describes the practices of Catholic and
>other faith-based hospitals, presenting some alarming stories about
>what these hospitals will and will not do for the health of women
>patients.

Isn't Italy a government supported health care country?  If so, this would 
explain it.  But don't Italians get tax breaks for having children?  I 
wonder if the population is dropping in Italy, as in many other countries.

Natasha



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Wed Oct 29 15:00:16 2003
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:00:16 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stamping Out Short People
Message-ID: <3F9FD600.8050205@mail.tele.dk>

Short but possitive story at wired

Growth hormone is just the start of human enhancement
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/view.html?pg=2?tw=wn_tophead_6


regards Max M



From natashavita at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 20 21:55:30 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:55:30 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?
Message-ID: <114780-220031012021553090@M2W085.mail2web.com>


Okay by me - 

I think we are all ready to lift off.

Natasha


Original Message:
-----------------
From: David McFadzean david at lucifer.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:31:12 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: [extropy-chat-test] ready for the switch?


If there are no objections, I would like to replace the extropy-chat list
with this test list this week.

David
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 28 15:01:24 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:01:24 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cyber women test what's real
Message-ID: <191690-220031022815124873@M2W071.mail2web.com>

Recently we were discussing human shapes depicted electronically.  Here's
something virtually life-like.

Cyber women test what's real 
---------- 
[BBC] 

"Software cyberbabes, created by powerful computers, sophisticated
modelling packages and active imaginations are getting extremely
human-like. But they raise questions about what people might be able to do
with the models if they get too realistic and we cannot tell the difference
anymore." (10/22/03) 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3207462.stm 



Natasha

Natasha Vita-More

Transhuanist Arts & Culture
http://www.transhumanist.biz

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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 28 17:16:55 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:16:55 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cyber women test what's real 
Message-ID: <157240-2200310228171655246@M2W081.mail2web.com>

Recently we were discussing human shapes depicted electronically. Here's 
something virtually life-like. 

Cyber women test what's real 
---------- 
[BBC] 

"Software cyberbabes, created by powerful computers, sophisticated 
modelling packages and active imaginations are getting extremely 
human-like. But they raise questions about what people might be able to do 
with the models if they get too realistic and we cannot tell the difference 
anymore." (10/22/03) 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3207462.stm 



Natasha 

Natasha Vita-More 

Transhuanist Arts & Culture 
http://www.transhumanist.biz 



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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 14:51:21 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:51:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuromarketing
Message-ID: <114780-2200310329145121989@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Last year George W. Bush "joked" that:

"... 'you can fool some of the people, all of the time -- and those are the
ones you have to concentrate on.' It remains to be seen if he can fool
enough people to get this war going."

http://www.cepr.net/columns/weisbrot/Cost_of_War.htm

Mark Weisbrot is Co-Director of the Center for Economic and Policy
Research, in Washington D.C. (www.cepr.net)


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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 15:07:15 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:07:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stamping Out Short People
Message-ID: <29950-220031032915715958@M2W038.mail2web.com>


From: Max M 

Short but possitive story at wired

Growth hormone is just the start of human enhancement
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/view.html?pg=2?tw=wn_tophead_6
'

FINALLY!!!! 

:-)

Natasha

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From devon at thegreatwork.com  Wed Oct 29 15:20:47 2003
From: devon at thegreatwork.com (Devon White)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:20:47 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: How do i get the list back in digest form?
References: <114780-2200310329145121989@M2W096.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <000601c39e30$53e91970$6401a8c0@Kallista>

I just started getting the list in single email format again. How do i get
it back into digest format?

Thanks,

Devon

www.synergymedianetwork.com
The Evolution Is Being Broadcast


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 15:37:05 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:37:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: How do i get the list back in digest form?
Message-ID: <410-220031032915375636@M2W079.mail2web.com>


From: Devon White 

>I just started getting the list in single email format again. How do i get
>it back into digest format?

Everyone was transferred over to the new list server.  You can can go to
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat and unsubscribe from
individual to *digest.*

Thank you Devon :-)

Natasha


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From max at maxmore.com  Wed Oct 29 13:07:03 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:07:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] article: Who Controls Your Health Care?
	(Shape magazine)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20031029073704.02e1b040@pop.earthlink.net>
References: <p05100300bbc49d25ce9a@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031029070530.018cd8b8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 09:39 AM 10/29/2003, you wrote:

>>In Lombardi's article, she describes the practices of Catholic and
>>other faith-based hospitals, presenting some alarming stories about
>>what these hospitals will and will not do for the health of women
>>patients.
>
>Isn't Italy a government supported health care country?  If so, this would 
>explain it.  But don't Italians get tax breaks for having children?  I 
>wonder if the population is dropping in Italy, as in many other countries.

Yes, Italy's population is in decline -- surprisingly so considering the 
method of birth control practiced (in theory) by Catholics. In Monty Python 
land that method is known as the "Every Sperm is Sacred Method".

Max



_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Oct 29 15:55:06 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: List changes...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310290750370.411-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Folks, those of you who may be using auto-sorting of incoming
email (e.g. spambouncer/procmail/etc.) may want to check your
incoming mail logs and routing instructions.  I noticed that
my incoming ExI mail was being misfiled after the recent
list switch.

(Of course if its being misfiled you may never see this message...
Kind of a chicken and egg problem I think.)  But if you notice
someone you know missing in action you might want to point this
potential problem out in an offlist note.

Robert




From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 16:13:27 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:13:27 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] America Rocks the Vote - Democrary goes Digital
Message-ID: <293580-2200310329161327872@M2W049.mail2web.com>


This is fun:


http://www.cnn.com/artv/


Natasha

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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Oct 29 16:17:26 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:17:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words to think about...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310290815550.1432-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Harry: Come on! You're NASA for Christ's sake! You're the ones who come
up with this shit! Why I bet you have a bunch of guys sitting around
somewhere right now just thinking shit up, and somebody backing them up.
What's your contingency plan?

Truman: Our contingency plan?

Harry: Yeah, your back up plan. You've gotta have a back up plan

Truman: No, we don't have a back up plan.



From amara at amara.com  Wed Oct 29 15:18:32 2003
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:18:32 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] article: Who Controls Your Health Care? (Shape
	magazine)
Message-ID: <p05100302bbc58a1ec67b@[150.146.134.133]>

(sending again, I didn't have the 'lists' in front of the domain)

Natasha,
>Isn't Italy a government supported health care country? If so, this would
>explain it.

I don't think I followed your comment, Natasha. The article was
about Catholic-based hospitals in the US, but I added my own opinion
about other countries' hospitals too.
(I.e., I don't know to what your 'it' is referring.)

Yes, Italy is a government supported health care country, if you can
call it that. Most people have private doctors though, because the
public health care is often poor, and moreover, if you have an
emergency condition, you will have to wait. Days, weeks, months. If
you want an appointment with a public health care doctor, your
appointment will likely be far in the future. (Example: when I
called to make an appointment in mid-September with an eye doctor
because my eyesight has deteriated rapidly this year, the first
available appointment for me was/is in April.)

>But don't Italians get tax breaks for having children?

Almost nothing.

>I  wonder if the population is dropping in Italy, as in many other countries.

Negative, in fact. Italy's birth rate is the lowest in Europe.
-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"The best presents don't come in boxes." --Hobbes


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Oct 29 16:31:19 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:31:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: list performance
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310290826080.1579-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Just for those of you who want to know how well the new list
is working.  Time from sending email to the list until it
appears in the Javien Forum is ~3-5 minutes.  Time from sending
email until it shows up in my mail box is ~7-10 minutes (of
course this may vary depending upon where ones name is in the
ExI email list as well as the email load on your ISP/email server).

But it would appear that we are back in business.
Kudos to Dave!

Robert




From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 16:34:59 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:34:59 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] article: Who Controls Your Health Care?
	(Shapemagazine)
Message-ID: <184670-2200310329163459195@M2W078.mail2web.com>


From: Amara Graps 

>Isn't Italy a government supported health care country? If so, this would
>explain it.

"I don't think I followed your comment, Natasha. The article was
about Catholic-based hospitals in the US, but I added my own opinion
about other countries' hospitals too.
(I.e., I don't know to what your 'it' is referring.)"

Referring to the lack of appropriate health care given to women because of
Catholic views.

"Yes, Italy is a government supported health care country, if you can
call it that. Most people have private doctors though, because the
public health care is often poor, and moreover, if you have an
emergency condition, you will have to wait. Days, weeks, months. If
you want an appointment with a public health care doctor, your
appointment will likely be far in the future. (Example: when I
called to make an appointment in mid-September with an eye doctor
because my eyesight has deteriated rapidly this year, the first
available appointment for me was/is in April.)"
____________________________

I didn't have to go to the doctor when I lived in Italy, thank goodness. I
did in Japan, although, during my pregnancy.  I was rejected by one women's
hospital before getting to a hospital that performed the surgery.  I was
held there in intensive are for two weeks. I would sneek out of my room at
night and teach myself how to walk again.  A Japanese friend helped me to
escape from the hospital. 

Natasha

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From max at maxmore.com  Wed Oct 29 14:04:48 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:04:48 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031029075440.01926240@mail.earthlink.net>

Rather than hoarding all the quotes I've gathered, I thought I'd share some 
of them here. A mix of wisdom, humor, and both at once:


"The best proof of intelligent life in space is that it hasn't come here."
- Sir Arthur C. Clarke

Sexual abstinence is harmless when practiced in moderation.

  "The future is usually like the past  right up to the moment when it isn't."
George F. Will, Newsweek, 10.27.03

"I can calculate the motions of the heavenly bodies, but not the madness of 
people."
Isaac Newton, after losing his savings in the South Sea Bubble of 1720.

"Life is a process of evolution and anyone who thinks the current world 
order is OK does not get what evolution is all about."
Leroy Hood

Bill McKibben "It is clear that these revolutionary technologies are being 
driven by people with immortality, or something very near it, on their minds."

"The only one who likes change is a wet baby."
Unknown

"There's a seeker born every minute."
Robert Anton Wilson

"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk"
Thomas Edison

"No one may have the guts to say this, but if we could make better human 
beings by knowing how to add genes, why shouldn't we?"
Dr. James Watson, Nobel Laureate, Co-Discoverer with Francis Crick of the 
Structure of DNA, and Founding Director of the NIH Human Genome Project.

"It seems to me that the civilized human being is a skeptic  someone who 
believes nothing at face value."
Robert McKee, Harvard Business Review, June 2003, in "Storytelling That 
Moves People".

"Humankind does not live by bread alone but also by catchphrases."
 From "Real Work" by Abraham Zaleznik, HBR Nov/Dec 1997

  "I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to 
be flexible at all times."
Everett Dirksen, leader of Senate Republicans 1959-1969

  "I don't want any 'yes men' in this organization. I want people to speak 
their minds, even if it does cost them their jobs."
Sam Goldwyn

  "Inside an organization there are only cost centers. The only profit 
center is a customer whose check has not bounced."
  Peter F. Drucker, Management Challenges for the 21st Century, p.122, 
"Information Challenges".

"If man were meant to be nude, he would have been born that way." - Oscar 
Wilde.

"I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it."
- Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
- Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

"If you are going through hell, keep going."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

"The covers of this book are too far apart."
- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)

"It is time I stepped aside for a less experienced and less able man."
- Professor Scott Elledge on his retirement from Cornell

"Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

"Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies."
- Voltaire (1694-1778) on his deathbed in response to a priest asking that 
he renounce Satan.

"The nice thing about egotists is that they don't talk about other people."
- Lucille S. Harper

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."
- Wernher Von Braun (1912-1977)

"I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's nothing trivial."
- Irvin S. Cobb

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
- Will Rogers (1879-1935)

"His ignorance is encyclopedic"
- Abba Eban (1915-)

"It is unbecoming for young men to utter maxims."
- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)


Onward!

Max



_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 16:49:40 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:49:40 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: list performance
Message-ID: <199120-2200310329164940103@M2W055.mail2web.com>


From: Robert J. Bradbury 


>Just for those of you who want to know how well the new list
is working.  Time from sending email to the list until it
appears in the Javien Forum is ~3-5 minutes.  Time from sending
email until it shows up in my mail box is ~7-10 minutes (of
course this may vary depending upon where ones name is in the
ExI email list as well as the email load on your ISP/email server).

But it would appear that we are back in business.
Kudos to Dave!<
___________________

It has been pole vault. :-)

Thank you Dave!

Natasha




_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

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From thespike at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 17:30:59 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:30:59 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031029075440.01926240@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005b01c39e42$6dc0fc20$82994a43@texas.net>


> "It is time I stepped aside for a less experienced and less able man."
> - Professor Scott Elledge on his retirement from Cornell

If I have seen further than others, it is by treading on the toes of dwarfs.
- Damien Broderick



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Oct 29 17:52:52 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:52:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
In-Reply-To: <005b01c39e42$6dc0fc20$82994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310290943471.3579-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


My 2 cents....

> Ronald Quincy: I know the presidents' chief advisor, we were at MIT
> together. And, at this point in time, you really don't want to take
> advice from a man who got a C minus in astrophysics. The presidents'
> advisors are wrong. I am right.

Interestingly -- I think MIT grades on a point system while Harvard
grades on a letter system.  Someone correct if they know otherwise.
But the quote wouldn't have had quite the same effect if it had been
"...want to take advice from a man who got a 2.6 in astrophysics...".

R.




From kilroy at hush.ai  Wed Oct 29 18:09:47 2003
From: kilroy at hush.ai (Kilroy)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:09:47 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
Message-ID: <200310291809.h9TI9lkI005420@mailserver2.hushmail.com>

>If I have seen further than others, it is by treading on the toes
>of dwarfs.
>- Damien Broderick

If I have seen further than others, it is because
I am standing on the shoulders of giants.

- Newton (I think)

If I have not seen as far as others, it is because
there are giants standing on my shoulders.

- Unknown



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From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Wed Oct 29 18:12:19 2003
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:12:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>


Optical processors are finally making some steps out of the labs and
commercial applications are expected in a short time frame. An Israeli
startup has a 8,000 Gflop/sec prototype:

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011008S0024

What's interesting to me is that, according to the article, optical
processors are inherently high-level, i.e. instead of gaining speed with
RISC-like operation, you implement high-level functions directly in
hardware (FFTs, pattern match, etc). Kinda like Mathlab with 1-clock
functions.
On the other hand, I could make thousands of matrix mult. per second,
but it could take one minute to compute 2+2 if addition must be emulated.
So the first devices will be more like specialized coprocessors and DSPs.

Ciao,
Alfio




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Oct 29 18:28:58 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:28:58 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>
Message-ID: <20031029182858.GF10805@leitl.org>


It's an analog device, and its parallelism is limited whatever you can
encode within a beam crossection/wavefront. Such conventional optical signal
processing is fundamentally limited -- this specialized device may do okay in
comparison to DSPs and ASICs (I'm missing the comparison with FPGAs), but
will look increasingly pale and paler with each subsequent iteration of
Moore's law (nevermind transition to reconfigurable logic in molecular
circuitry).

NLO logic has a niche in photonically switched networks though, and it can be
scaled down with SNOM and photonic crystal waveguides. So it will stay firmly
entrenched in a few niches.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 07:12:19PM +0100, Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> 
> Optical processors are finally making some steps out of the labs and
> commercial applications are expected in a short time frame. An Israeli
> startup has a 8,000 Gflop/sec prototype:
> 
> http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011008S0024
> 
> What's interesting to me is that, according to the article, optical
> processors are inherently high-level, i.e. instead of gaining speed with
> RISC-like operation, you implement high-level functions directly in
> hardware (FFTs, pattern match, etc). Kinda like Mathlab with 1-clock
> functions.
> On the other hand, I could make thousands of matrix mult. per second,
> but it could take one minute to compute 2+2 if addition must be emulated.
> So the first devices will be more like specialized coprocessors and DSPs.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From thespike at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 18:49:49 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:49:49 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>
	<20031029182858.GF10805@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <010b01c39e4d$70d6c6a0$82994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:28 PM

I am still getting all of Eugen's posts (such as this one) as attachments,
not in the email message body. I dislike opening attachments, even from
someone trustworthy (or someone pretending to be someone trustworthy, which
is the problem).

But maybe it's something to do with how I, in my ignorance of the annoying
program, have Outlook Express configured...?

Damien Broderick



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Oct 29 18:55:49 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:55:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
In-Reply-To: <010b01c39e4d$70d6c6a0$82994a43@texas.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>
	<20031029182858.GF10805@leitl.org>
	<010b01c39e4d$70d6c6a0$82994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20031029185548.GH10805@leitl.org>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 12:49:49PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> I am still getting all of Eugen's posts (such as this one) as attachments,
> not in the email message body. I dislike opening attachments, even from
> someone trustworthy (or someone pretending to be someone trustworthy, which
> is the problem).

For this particular reason I'm posting in plain text, and sign all my
outgoing messages. You can't trust what's in the header. There's reasonable
trust in that whoever claims to be me and uses the right signature is either
me or knows my passphrase, or has this system compromised and has captured my
passphrase.
 
> But maybe it's something to do with how I, in my ignorance of the annoying
> program, have Outlook Express configured...?

Outlook Express (and a few other notorius email clients) do not comply to RFC
2015 (it's been only around since 1996, or so).

Some of the background can be found here:

	<http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html>

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pietroferri at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 29 22:59:35 2003
From: pietroferri at hotmail.com (pietro ferri)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:59:35 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
Message-ID: <BAY2-F116Rr4Ye85rSo00009160@hotmail.com>

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From xballb at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 29 23:38:05 2003
From: xballb at hotmail.com (Rick Strongitharm, B.A., LL.B.)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:38:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
Message-ID: <BAY1-F56Uw3ZPpAATnL0001bbc6@hotmail.com>

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From thespike at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 29 23:42:03 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:42:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
References: <BAY2-F116Rr4Ye85rSo00009160@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <019901c39e76$44c07920$82994a43@texas.net>

Hi Pietro

> Since this is my first posting

Welcome!

> A question for Damien Broderick: in your excellent book ( which, you may
be happy to know, lies on my night table) you do not analyse in depth
Kurzweil's ideas. Why?

Ray is increasingly prominent as a voice in singularity studies, but he
wasn't especially prominent when I was writing the first edition of THE
SPIKE in 1996. By the time I was preparing the revision/extension for
publication in New York four years later, Ray's spiritual machines book was
out and being noticed, but it seemed to me to cover much the same ground as
mine (in more detail in some areas and less in others). ButI considered his
own special contribution, the `Law of Accelerating Returns',

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?m=1

to be at the verge of bogosity (sorry, Ray) when regarded as a sort of
cosmic Truth. Moore's `law' (or observation or conjecture) by contrast is a
modest empirical observation with perhaps a little more power to it than
immediately meets the eye, due to the contingent drivers of industrial
capitalism.

But this is a topic that could surely use some discussion on the extrope
list.

Or were you thinking of some other ideas of Ray's?

Damien Broderick
www.thespike.us



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 00:26:09 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:26:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F116Rr4Ye85rSo00009160@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291536100.12824-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Pietro,

Hello and welcome.

I will take the liberty of responding to this question since Damien
seems to be stuck using an email client from hell...

(Side note 1: yes Damien its your client -- my emails from Eugen
show up fine as regular text -- I've checked the headers and even
though they now appear to exceed the average message in size they
do appear reasonable.  Of course this is the ExI list and it is
certainly not out of the question for the very bright people on
the list to be sending messages of the form (INCLUDE activated
worm code -- If username == ".*Damien.*" and email program ==
insecure crap from Microsoft then convert all text messages to
attachments just to really annoy said user Damien.... -- Remember
the rocket scientists that NASA hires are the people who couldn't
cut it on the ExI List... :-))

(Side note 2: to Pietro & others -- it looks like if you mail a
message in HTML format only that the HTML may be removed going into
the Javien forum archive [this may in part explain why some Javien Forum
messages end up blank].  It seems to show up in Email (as text) and
the BBS (as HTML).  So one may want to be careful when sending messages
to the list to try and post them as regular text.)

> A question for Damien Broderick: in your excellent book ( which, you may be happy to know, lies on
> my night table) you do not analyse in depth Kurzweil's ideas. Why? Don't you agree that he is the
> leading extropian/singularitarian worldwide?

I will attempt to provide some background on this.  I have sitting on
my desk "The Age of Spiritual Machines" (1999) and of course Ray
published "The Age of Intelligent Machines" in 1992.  Damien did
not publish the Spike until early 2001 though it may have been
available in AU before that.  However people who have followed the
list for many years are aware that Damien was collecting material
(some from the list) from the late '90s onward.

While I would agree that Ray has certainly helped to promote extropic
concepts to a wider audience -- particularly the concepts related
to machine intelligence -- these are not ideas that are unique to Ray.

In 1999 I got a chance to speak with Marvin Minsky directly for a few
minutes at the A4M conference in Las Vegas.  I asked him about the
concept of uploading.  He indicated that both he and Hans Moravec
had come up with the concept independently.  As Hans documented
one approach in "Mind Children" (circa 1988) and Vinge's first
publication of the singularity concept was at a NASA conference
in 1993 the concepts of uploading and the singularity are not
inventions by Ray.

I don't think Damien should be doing an analysis of Ray's ideas (unless he
considers it to be fun :-)).  They have relatively different areas of
expertise (Ray's being in software & AI, Damien's being in a encyclopedic
knowledge of sci-fi literature).  I heard Ray speak at the Extro 5
conference and much of the information was fairly technical -- (and anyone
who knows me knows I'm reasonably technical) -- so the audience of people
really qualified to work through Ray's ideas in detail is probably small.
Given the nature of much of Ray's perspective I'd suggest that the best
people to comment on Ray's ideas might be either Eliezer Yudkowsky or
Marvin Minsky.  Since the nature of intelligence still isn't really resolved
you would have to bring in psychologists like William Calvin as well.
I suspect one would need a conference that includes a wide variety of academics
and I doubt one would get out of the conference a consensus -- at least
at this point in time.

I would have to say that I view Max More as the leading extropian
and Eliezer Yudkowsky as the leading singularitarian.  Ray is perhaps
one of the better known proponents with respect to the inevitable
advance of machine intelligence.  (Your opinion of course may vary.)

Robert




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Oct 30 01:20:29 2003
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:20:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291536100.12824-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20031030012029.46299.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> In 1999 I got a chance to speak with Marvin Minsky
> directly for a few
> minutes at the A4M conference in Las Vegas.  I asked
> him about the
> concept of uploading.  He indicated that both he and
> Hans Moravec
> had come up with the concept independently.  As Hans
> documented
> one approach in "Mind Children" (circa 1988) and
> Vinge's first
> publication of the singularity concept was at a NASA
> conference
> in 1993 the concepts of uploading and the
> singularity are not
> inventions by Ray.

Doesn't the concept of replacing the brain's neurons
with artificial ones, one at a time, date back to
Turing?  This is one concept of uploading (and the
closest to reality, from what I've seen - even if it
is a fair ways off).


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Oct 30 01:35:56 2003
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:35:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0310291903460.3843@hercules>
Message-ID: <20031030013556.48969.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> Optical processors are finally making some steps out
> of the labs and
> commercial applications are expected in a short time
> frame. An Israeli
> startup has a 8,000 Gflop/sec prototype:
> 
> http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011008S0024

Does anyone know if optical processors have the same
vulnerability to radiation in orbit as electronic
processors do?  I'm wondering if, now that these are
finally purchasable, they might be a simple swap-in
replacement for low-grade electronics.  (More
expensive than real electronics, of course, but
possibly a lot less expensive than custom-designed
harded electronics.)


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 01:43:01 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:43:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <019901c39e76$44c07920$82994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291715150.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>



On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Damien Broderick wrote:

> But I considered his
> own special contribution, the `Law of Accelerating Returns',
>
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?m=1
>
> to be at the verge of bogosity (sorry, Ray) when regarded as a sort of
> cosmic Truth.

Well there are little truths and big truths and some in between.
Ray is pretty good compared with others (Ron Klatz of the A4M
comes to mind) when it comes to pushing trends (e.g. the doubling
rate for medical knowledge) way beyond what is reasonable.

Now, the "Law of Accelerating Returns" is an interesting concept.
For example, clearly the Google Search of Books will accelerate
progress if it survives the assault by the authors guild.  And
perhaps 8 years ago, I made up a spreadsheet that documented the
increasing amount of "intelligence" that could be applied to the
problem of aging research as a result of Moore's Law increasing
computational capacity (view it as a pre- at HOME project of where
people would choose to dedicate their "spare" intellectual capacity
should they have the option of doing so).  It made it clear (to me)
that "aging" was doomed.  And just today there was a release of
BSD Unix that can take advantage of processor features that have
been in Intel processors >= Pentium Pros for years to address 64
Gigabytes of memory.  Hell -- a year ago we didn't even have hard
drives that big!

Worth noting -- this means a single PC (with a hell of a lot
of memory) is within 2 orders of magnitude of being able to
store (and address) the entire contents of the Library of
Congress (~8 Terabytes).  Presumably the AMD 64-bit Athlon
goes way beyond this.

Today I'll play with the LoC.  Tomorrow I'll play with copies
of Damien's mind...  After all -- a copy of Damien isn't
really Damien right?

Robert



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 02:06:53 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:06:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <20031030012029.46299.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291743400.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Doesn't the concept of replacing the brain's neurons
> with artificial ones, one at a time, date back to
> Turing?  This is one concept of uploading (and the
> closest to reality, from what I've seen - even if it
> is a fair ways off).

Quite possibly.  But it would take someone like Damien to
comment on when sci-fi concepts begin to make it from
a fuzzy fantasy concept into reality when people really
need to take it seriously.

We could go through a list of people (Turing, von Neumann,
Good, etc.) trying to document the thread(s) that uploading
or neuronal replacement depend upon -- and it might be a
quite educational exercise.  [Not one I am opposed to it mind
you -- but it would require some serious intellectual legwork.]

It seems to me the more interesting question is *when* do
we get the technology -- even if it is not nanotech (cochlear
implants come to mind) to make this start to happen.

And on the front of human "enhancement".  We can take HGH
(within some limits) but not various steroids that would
improve athletic performance (perhaps with some downside
in longevity, violent tendencies, etc. etc.).  And certainly
we should not be selling on street corners "do-it-yourself"
injections for gene therapies to turn yourself into Hulk Hogan.

Natasha -- you really have your work cut out for you if you
plan to sell the fact that anyone can have a body that will
give them a career in the WWF or a mind that will get them
into MIT.

R.




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 02:16:57 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:16:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: optical processors
In-Reply-To: <20031030013556.48969.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291807370.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Does anyone know if optical processors have the same
> vulnerability to radiation in orbit as electronic
> processors do?

I am not certain, but my impression is that the optical
processors function only in very specific DSP functions.
I.e. they are not "general" purpose processors.  If this
is accurate, they cannot replace "general purpose" command
and control functions in satellites, robots, etc.  Their
primary purpose would be in data integration, filtering,
etc.  I.e. computational tasks with a high degree of
parallel rather than serial operations.

That is not to say that they might not evolve into general
purpose computing functions but such functions are not
what optical methods are generally best at.  It may require
the development of an entirely different computing paradigm
(how can one multiplex many diverse computing paths?).  It
sounds like a PERT Chart data/resource-flow compression
nightmare and solving that is *not* going to be easy.

R.




From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Oct 30 03:23:10 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:23:10 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] children's books that didnt sell
In-Reply-To: <293580-2200310329161327872@M2W049.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c39e95$251bf210$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


http://www.dbooth.net/internerd/childrensbooks.shtm




From blamar at satx.rr.com  Thu Oct 30 05:35:45 2003
From: blamar at satx.rr.com (Barbara Lamar)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:35:45 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291807370.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBKBECILABFJHGFBDGCEPJMDAA.blamar@satx.rr.com>


Robert Bradbury wrote:

<<I will attempt to provide some background on this.  I have sitting on
my desk "The Age of Spiritual Machines" (1999) and of course Ray
published "The Age of Intelligent Machines" in 1992.  Damien did
not publish the Spike until early 2001 though it may have been
available in AU before that.  However people who have followed the
list for many years are aware that Damien was collecting material
(some from the list) from the late '90s onward.>>

Just to set the record straight, THE SPIKE was first released in Australia
in 1997 and THE LAST MORTAL GENERATION in 1999.

By the way, Damien has just received an Australia Council Literature Board
writing Fellowship for 2004 - 2005 to write two novels dealing with the
impact of the coming singularity.

Barbara


Law Office of Barbara Lamar
127 Lewis Street
San Antonio, TX 78212
210.223.9389 (San Antonio)
512.376.4235 (Austin / San Marcos)





From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 06:10:33 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:10:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <NDBBKBECILABFJHGFBDGCEPJMDAA.blamar@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310292202430.20765-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Barbara Lamar wrote:

> Just to set the record straight, THE SPIKE was first released in Australia
> in 1997 and THE LAST MORTAL GENERATION in 1999.

Thanks Barbara for providing the updates.  I thought that might be the
case but didn't have hard data in front of me to make the points.

> By the way, Damien has just received an Australia Council Literature Board
> writing Fellowship for 2004 - 2005 to write two novels dealing with the
> impact of the coming singularity.

Cool.  Way to go Damien!

Now of course, one has to wonder about the translation of previous books
and novels into Urdu and Persian.

For that matter, I suppose we ought to think about the translation of
the mailing list into Urdu and Persian.

R.




From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Oct 30 06:29:38 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:59:38 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE026@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

I don't know about that, Robert. We could probably have a good crack at an
machine translation into Pig Latin... howay aboutway atthay?

Emlynway

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert J. Bradbury [mailto:bradbury at aeiveos.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 3:41 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Barbara Lamar wrote:
> 
> > Just to set the record straight, THE SPIKE was first 
> released in Australia
> > in 1997 and THE LAST MORTAL GENERATION in 1999.
> 
> Thanks Barbara for providing the updates.  I thought that might be the
> case but didn't have hard data in front of me to make the points.
> 
> > By the way, Damien has just received an Australia Council 
> Literature Board
> > writing Fellowship for 2004 - 2005 to write two novels 
> dealing with the
> > impact of the coming singularity.
> 
> Cool.  Way to go Damien!
> 
> Now of course, one has to wonder about the translation of 
> previous books
> and novels into Urdu and Persian.
> 
> For that matter, I suppose we ought to think about the translation of
> the mailing list into Urdu and Persian.
> 
> R.
> 
> 



From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 06:32:40 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:32:40 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Urdu and Persian
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310292202430.20765-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <02bb01c39eaf$a116d780$82994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:10 AM

> I suppose we ought to think about the translation of
> the mailing list into Urdu and Persian.

Now you're just being Farsi-cal.

Damien Broderick
[sorry :) ]



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Oct 30 06:43:03 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:43:03 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
In-Reply-To: <003b01c39e95$251bf210$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <000001c39eb1$11454c20$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
computers?  Are there any antique computer users
groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  

spike







From max at maxmore.com  Thu Oct 30 07:43:26 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:43:26 -0600
Subject: More words to praise Damien's words [was: Re: [extropy-chat]
	"The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil]
In-Reply-To: <NDBBKBECILABFJHGFBDGCEPJMDAA.blamar@satx.rr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291807370.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030011638.0355d8c8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 11:35 PM 10/29/2003, Barbara wrote:


>By the way, Damien has just received an Australia Council Literature Board
>writing Fellowship for 2004 - 2005 to write two novels dealing with the
>impact of the coming singularity.

Congratulations Damien! Great news.

In solemn recognition of this occasion, I'm imposing yet more quotations on 
you -- this time all relating to writing...


"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
- Tom Clancy

"I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write
faster than anybody who can write better."
- A. J. Liebling (1904-1963)

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know."
- Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

"This book fills a much-needed gap."
- Moses Hadas (1900-1966) in a review

"Thank you for sending me a copy of your book - I'll waste no time reading 
it."
- Moses Hadas (1900-1966)

"Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers."
- T. S. Eliot (1888-1965)

"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. 
Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)

"I'll moider da bum."
- Heavyweight boxer Tony Galento, when asked what he thought of William 
Shakespeare

"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by 
everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the 
exact opposite."
- Paul Dirac (1902-1984)

"From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I was convulsed 
with laughter. Some day I intend reading it."
- Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

"I have read your book and much like it."
- Moses Hadas (1900-1966)

"Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy 
evidence of the fact."
- George Eliot (1819-1880)

"Manuscript: something submitted in haste and returned at leisure."
- Oliver Herford (1863-1935)

"Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles writers. My 
opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them."
- Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964)

"Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research."
- Wilson Mizner (1876-1933)

"Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them."
- Samuel Palmer (1805-80)


Max


_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 30 10:22:43 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:22:43 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F56Uw3ZPpAATnL0001bbc6@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY1-F56Uw3ZPpAATnL0001bbc6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20031030102243.GB27418@leitl.org>


Dear hotmail subscribers. Please do not post HTML-only email.

See http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/29270.html

On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 06:38:05PM -0500, Rick Strongitharm, B.A., LL.B. wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From gregburch at gregburch.net  Thu Oct 30 13:44:32 2003
From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:44:32 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Double Posts
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030011638.0355d8c8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F8DC86200009363@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>

I'm getting two of everything from the list -- is this a function of having
been subscribed during the development period and the automagically resubscribed
when the list was officially begun later?

My blog: http://www.gregburch.net/burchismo.html

   "Every question we answer leads on to another
      question. This has become the greatest  
          survival trick of our species."
                -- Desmond Morris



From gregburch at gregburch.net  Thu Oct 30 13:48:19 2003
From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:48:19 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030011638.0355d8c8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F8DC8620000936E@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>

The space policy nerdo-sphere is buzzing with rumors that Bush will use
the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers' flight to
announce a return to lunar exploration as a goal of U.S. manned space flight.
 See:

 http://www.spacedaily.com/news/beyondleo-03a.html

NASA could have a sustainable (although not constantly manned) presence
on the moon by 2015. On that schedule, the work done to build the ISS would
not be wasted: The design and construction of the various elements of the
ISS could be turned to building modular "hab modules" and other components
of a reusable translunar vehicle and a surface base. If my physics isn't
too off, even the ISS's cockeyed orbital inclination wouldn't be too much
of a handicap, since the cross-inclination vectoring could be leveraged
during translunar trajectory insertion so that the missions originating
at the ISS could still get into a lunar-equatorial orbit without too much
delta-vee.  Is this latter conjecture on my part true?

My blog: http://www.gregburch.net/burchismo.html

   "Every question we answer leads on to another
      question. This has become the greatest  
          survival trick of our species."
                -- Desmond Morris



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Oct 30 16:07:28 2003
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:07:28 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <3F8DC8620000936E@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030011638.0355d8c8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031030080456.02e14ec0@pop.earthlink.net>

This made me think of Elaine Walker's song "I Want to Go to the Moon."

If you haven't heard it, you must. The lyrics are alluring and sweetly song.
http://www.ziaspace.com/

Natasha



From david at lucifer.com  Thu Oct 30 15:01:31 2003
From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:01:31 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Double Posts
References: <3F8DC86200009363@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <037e01c39ef6$b48ae210$6401a8c0@lucifer.com>

From: "Greg Burch" <gregburch at gregburch.net>


> I'm getting two of everything from the list -- is this a function of having
> been subscribed during the development period and the automagically resubscribed
> when the list was officially begun later?

Yes, but only if you used two different email addresses. If anyone else is 
getting duplicates, you can unsubscribe one of your addresses via the web
interface, or let me know and I will do it for you.

David


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Thu Oct 30 13:05:02 2003
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:05:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: antique computers
References: <003b01c39e95$251bf210$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<000001c39eb1$11454c20$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <bnr29u$1blf$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> How about computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  

Yes to all of the above.  Well, it somewhat depends on what you
consider "antique".

For collections that trace history back to Zuse's reinvention of
computing, or even all the way to Babbage, you'll have to go to a
proper museum.  (If the name Zuse doesn't ring a bell, you are
suffering from anglocentrism.)

However, there are plenty of enthusiasts for gear dating from the
1970s, '80s, and '90s, basically ever since microcomputers came
along.  You can find fans for popular or even exotic '80s home
computers, and these are most likely to hold rallies and competitions.
NetBSD is the most portable operating system in the world and it
supports a variety of old Unix boxen, such as DEC's VAX line, which
attracts collectors of such hardware.

If you've been to last year's Hannover CeBIT, there was a Sun-1 on
display at the Sun Microsystems booth.

Just about the first name that comes to mind when thinking of old
computers is the Vintage Computer Festival:
http://www.vintage.org/

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From duggerj1 at charter.net  Thu Oct 30 15:46:41 2003
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (JAY DUGGER)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:46:41 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <3F8DC8620000936E@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <web-21839761@rems07.cluster1.charter.net>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:48:19 -0600
  "Greg Burch" <gregburch at gregburch.net> wrote:
>The space policy nerdo-sphere is buzzing with rumors that 
>Bush will use
>the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Wright 
>Brothers' flight to
>announce a return to lunar exploration as a goal of U.S. 
>manned space flight.
>  See:
>
>  http://www.spacedaily.com/news/beyondleo-03a.html

I hate to play cynic on something so near and dear to me, 
but need I mention the ill-fated Space Exploration 
Initiative, proposed by Mr. Bush, Sr.? 

Watch here to see how the idea futures market, such as it 
is, takes the rumor.

http://www.ideosphere.com/fx-bin/Claim?claim=mndsxp

>The design and construction of the various 
>elements of the
>ISS could be turned to building modular "hab modules" and 
>other components
>of a reusable translunar vehicle and a surface base. 

I don't know if reuse could happen so easily. Lunar 
gravity shouldn't pose a problem, but what about radiation 
exposure during transit and then on Luna? Burying the 
modules in the regolith once they arrive seems the easiest 
way to shield them, but how much regolith do you need and 
can the modules take it over the long term? Remember once 
you bury them,  repairing the modules gets harder. How do 
you patch a leak from the inside only? One could do it, it 
just takes more effort.

If 
>my physics isn't
>too off, even the ISS's cockeyed orbital inclination 
>wouldn't be too much
>of a handicap, since the cross-inclination vectoring 
>could be leveraged
>during translunar trajectory insertion so that the 
>missions originating
>at the ISS could still get into a lunar-equatorial orbit 
>without too much
>delta-vee.  Is this latter conjecture on my part true?

I can't help here. Where's Nick Szabo when you need him?

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj
Sometimes delete serves best.


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 16:33:25 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:33:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FIRE So.Cal.:  Does anyone need help?
Message-ID: <265000-2200310430163325327@M2W032.mail2web.com>

Friends,

If you are in the vacinity of the fires in southern California or know
someone who is who needs help - food or shelter, etc., please let me know
so I can set up some sort of relief for our members and their friends and
family.

Warmly,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
President, Extropy Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From kilroy at hush.ai  Thu Oct 30 17:11:53 2003
From: kilroy at hush.ai (Kilroy)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:11:53 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Uploading
Message-ID: <200310301711.h9UHBrcb030819@mailserver3.hushmail.com>

>Doesn't the concept of replacing the brain's neurons
>with artificial ones, one at a time, date back to
>Turing?  This is one concept of uploading (and the
>closest to reality, from what I've seen - even if it
>is a fair ways off).

The first description of this that I saw was
a letter, I think by Marvin Minsky, in
Behavioral and Brain Science, in response to
a republication of John Searle's very stupid
"Chinese Room" paper.  This would have been
sometime in the 1980s.  Turing, in the paper
in which he proposed the Turing test, may
have written something similar, but I can't
remember.



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From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 17:45:53 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:45:53 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Uploading
References: <200310301711.h9UHBrcb030819@mailserver3.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c39f0d$ad9acb20$a4994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kilroy" <kilroy at hush.ai>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:11 AM

>Turing, in the paper
> in which he proposed the Turing test, may
> have written something similar, but I can't
> remember.

Here's that paper in

[VOL. LIX. No.236.] [October, 1950] 

MIND 

A QUARTERLY REVIEW OF PSYCHOLOGY AND PHILOSOPHY:

http://www.abelard.org/turpap/turpap.htm





From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 18:15:36 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:15:36 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310291715150.14473-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <009001c39f11$d4304720$a4994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:43 PM

> > But I considered his
> > own special contribution, the `Law of Accelerating Returns',

> > http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?m=1

> > to be at the verge of bogosity (sorry, Ray) when regarded as a sort of
> > cosmic Truth.

[Robert comments:]
> Ray is pretty good compared with others (Ron Klatz of the A4M
> comes to mind) when it comes to pushing trends (e.g. the doubling
> rate for medical knowledge) way beyond what is reasonable.
>
> Now, the "Law of Accelerating Returns" is an interesting concept.
> For example, clearly the Google Search of Books will accelerate
> progress if it survives the assault by the authors guild. [etc]

I was going to wait until Pietro had told us which of Ray's ideas he wanted
to see analyzed in depth. But I should probably nip this line of objection
in the bud:

My incautious labeling of some of Dr Kurzweil's ideas as verging on the
bogus comes only (as I say above) from the *cosmic* or *general* nature of
his proposed `Law'.

*Obviously* computer bang for buck, etc, has been increasing pretty much as
Ray charts so usefully in the essay cited. This is the very basis of the
technological singularity discerned by Dr Vinge and discussed in my book and
Ray's. The question is whether this contingent fact of local technological
history can be projected backwards across space and time to yield a general
`Law of Accelerating Returns'. To cite that paper:

`Evolution applies positive feedback in that the more capable methods
resulting from one stage of evolutionary progress are used to create the
next stage. As a result, the rate of progress of an evolutionary process
increases exponentially over time. Over time, the "order" of the information
embedded in the evolutionary process (i.e., the measure of how well the
information fits a purpose, which in evolution is survival) increases.

`A correlate of the above observation is that the "returns" of an evolution
ary process (e.g., the speed, cost-effectiveness, or overall "power" of a
process) increase exponentially over time.

[...]
`Biological evolution is one such evolutionary process.'

Now this *might* be true (although bacteria don't seem to have `progressed'
yet they're doing just fine), but it seems to suffer from the hazards that
Karl Popper tore at in his great polemical book THE POVERTY OF HISTORICISM.
It reifies `progress', it assumes that there is a measure of progress that
remains identifiable over cosmic or at least geo-biological time scales.
This seems to be a remnant of 19th century thinking that's very pervasive
among technophiles but extremely difficult to defend.

What's more, it makes no allowance for the co-determination of evolved
structure and context, let alone the contingencies (such as random
intrusions like asteroid strikes or GRBs) that might produce the gross
discontinuities of punctuated equilibrium.

None of this means that Ray's *forecasts* concerning AI are dubious or even
implausible. I find them compelling, and was persuaded by the same factors
long before I read his work. It *does* mean that he's chosen (IMHO) an
unfortunate metaphysical and rhetorical framework for the exposition of
these important ideas.

Of course, on the other hand, in the world of public discourse this might be
a clever move--akin to the playful cavortings and winkings of Brian Greene
in his Elegant Universe series on string theory running right now on TV--but
it could serve to deter serious scholars who regard this framework as a
version of long-exploded teleology.

But this is such an important issue that I really *do* hope some
philosophically astute people here will throw in their 2 cents' worth. Max?
Greg? Anders? Anyone?

Damien Broderick





From kilroy at hush.ai  Thu Oct 30 18:14:13 2003
From: kilroy at hush.ai (Kilroy)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:14:13 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
Message-ID: <200310301814.h9UIEDRw032631@mailserver3.hushmail.com>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:06:53 -0800 "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
wrote:
>
>And on the front of human "enhancement".  We can take HGH
>(within some limits) but not various steroids that would
>improve athletic performance (perhaps with some downside
>in longevity, violent tendencies, etc. etc.).

Can't, legally.  Can, practically.
The health risks of a_steroids have been vastly
overstated by the medical establishment.  The
resulting "violent tendencies" are in my experience
not as dramatic as those you get from drinking coffee,
or (for other people) alcohol. The main health risk
from our perspective (to males over age 25) is that,
when you use a-steroids, you have to eat a lot more,
and this may cause more oxidative damage to your organs.
A-steroids are incompatible with caloric restriction,
just as weightlifting itself is.

The real main downside is that you may have a SWAT team
break into your house, throw you and anybody else
in the house to the ground and hold guns to your
head and shout at you for a few hours, take your
cars and your house and the contents of your bank
accounts away, and send you to jail for a long time.

Also, no, you can't take HGH in general, except to
help short kids grow taller, or as replacement
therapy when you're older. I don't recommend it
for most people.  It will give you bigger muscles,
but it makes your organs grow larger, which gives
you a fat gut and possibly heart problems.
Even short-term use of small amounts HGH by an
adult can make you look fat.  Kids don't have
these problems with HGH because a) their bones
can grow longer as well as the rest of them,
and b) their heart can possibly still adapt
its timing to an increased size, tho you'd have
to ask a cardiologist for sure.

>And certainly
>we should not be selling on street corners "do-it-yourself"
>injections for gene therapies to turn yourself into Hulk Hogan.

Once the basic risks are assessed and the remaining
problems addressed, why not?



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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 19:10:27 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:10:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <200310301814.h9UIEDRw032631@mailserver3.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301100590.3664-100000@server.aeiveos.com>



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kilroy wrote:

> The health risks of a_steroids have been vastly
> overstated by the medical establishment.  The
> resulting "violent tendencies" are in my experience
> not as dramatic as those you get from drinking coffee,
> or (for other people) alcohol.

Well, I may be wrong, but what I have read suggest that
the violent tendencies are real.  Though I would certainly
agree that alcohol can lead to similar problems -- though
the causes are quite different.

> Once the basic risks are assessed and the remaining
> problems addressed, why not?

But much of your note suggested that it will be difficult
to address those problems (at least with respect to HGH).

The most basic risk I see is that problem with people who
are not well informed about potential risks and simply do
not understand that "more" is not always "better".  (Have
you glanced at the WWF lately?  The idea that people will
pay good money to go watch such "entertainment" (sarcasm
intended) boggles my mind.  Hell the WWF makes cow tipping
an olympic class sport.)  Now you give those "entertainers"
and their fans the ability to self-enhance to their hearts
content and things are going to get really messy.

I'd like to hear Natasha comment on exactly where the lines
need to be drawn.  (Can you self-enhance ones violent
tendencies?  Can you self-enhance in self-destructive ways
that will be cleaned up later by taxpayer supported medical
care, etc.?)

Robert




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 19:20:41 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:20:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <009001c39f11$d4304720$a4994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301113450.3954-100000@server.aeiveos.com>



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Damien Broderick wrote:

> What's more, it makes no allowance for the co-determination of evolved
> structure and context, let alone the contingencies (such as random
> intrusions like asteroid strikes or GRBs) that might produce the gross
> discontinuities of punctuated equilibrium.

I've been working on Amara Angelica to get Ray to address the potential
speed-bumps in "The Singularity is Near".  Whether he will or not I don't
know yet.

> But this is such an important issue that I really *do* hope some
> philosophically astute people here will throw in their 2 cents' worth. Max?
> Greg? Anders? Anyone?

Glad you didn't mention me in that list... :-)

At any rate, given your comments (which I would tend to summarize as
"Ray may be raising a philosophically dead horse" if I understand them
correctly, I'd like to draw your attention to the following:

"Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences,
800 B.C. to 1950" by Charles Murry (co-author of The Bell Curve).

/.:
http://books.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/30/1441239&mode=thread&tid=134&tid=188&tid=192

Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006019247X/

It might be interesting to compare the vectors that Ray and Charles select.

R.



From etheric at comcast.net  Thu Oct 30 19:25:28 2003
From: etheric at comcast.net (R.Coyote)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:25:28 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301100590.3664-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000801c39f1b$93a7d8d0$0200a8c0@etheric>

/me *shakes head*
To witness such ignorance about a subject from this otherwise brilliant
group...



The Myostatin Gene
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/volk/myostatin.htm


The First New Anabolic Drugs of the Next Millenium Are Discovered
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/non-steroidal-androgens.htm

A Philosophical Defense of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/gendin/philosophical-defense-of-steroi
d-use.htm


Mechanisms of Action for Growth Hormone (GH) and Insulin-like Growth
Factor-1 (IGF-1)
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/growth-factors-01.htm

Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding and the Law
http://www.steroidlaw.com/


Psychological and Behavioural Effects of Endogenous Testosterone Levels and
Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids Among Males: A Review
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/bahrke/bahrke00.htm


Researchers Too Quick to Blame Steroids for Changes in Heart Muscle
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/anabolic-steroids-and-heart-mu
scle.htm

Anabolic Steroids, Growth Hormone, and Hypertrophy of the Heart
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/koert/anabolic-steroids-gh-and-the-hea
rt.htm

Human Growth Hormone
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/human-growth-hormone.htm




----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
To: <kilroy at hush.ai>; "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil


>
>
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kilroy wrote:
>
> > The health risks of a_steroids have been vastly
> > overstated by the medical establishment.  The
> > resulting "violent tendencies" are in my experience
> > not as dramatic as those you get from drinking coffee,
> > or (for other people) alcohol.
>
> Well, I may be wrong, but what I have read suggest that
> the violent tendencies are real.  Though I would certainly
> agree that alcohol can lead to similar problems -- though
> the causes are quite different.
>
> > Once the basic risks are assessed and the remaining
> > problems addressed, why not?
>
> But much of your note suggested that it will be difficult
> to address those problems (at least with respect to HGH).
>
> The most basic risk I see is that problem with people who
> are not well informed about potential risks and simply do
> not understand that "more" is not always "better".  (Have
> you glanced at the WWF lately?  The idea that people will
> pay good money to go watch such "entertainment" (sarcasm
> intended) boggles my mind.  Hell the WWF makes cow tipping
> an olympic class sport.)  Now you give those "entertainers"
> and their fans the ability to self-enhance to their hearts
> content and things are going to get really messy.
>
> I'd like to hear Natasha comment on exactly where the lines
> need to be drawn.  (Can you self-enhance ones violent
> tendencies?  Can you self-enhance in self-destructive ways
> that will be cleaned up later by taxpayer supported medical
> care, etc.?)
>
> Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From artillo at comcast.net  Thu Oct 30 19:26:30 2003
From: artillo at comcast.net (artillo at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:26:30 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
Message-ID: <103020031926.5815.38e2@comcast.net>

"If I have seen further than others, it's because of my new-fangled ocular implants with 300mm telescoping zoom and image enhancement neural implant!"

LOL Couldn't resist! - Artillo
> >If I have seen further than others, it is by treading on the toes
> >of dwarfs.
> >- Damien Broderick
> 
> If I have seen further than others, it is because
> I am standing on the shoulders of giants.
> 
> - Newton (I think)
> 
> If I have not seen as far as others, it is because
> there are giants standing on my shoulders.
> 
> - Unknown
> 
> 
> 
> Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
> FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
> 
> Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
> https://www.hushmail.com/services.php?subloc=messenger&l=434
> 
> Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program: 
> https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From hal at finney.org  Thu Oct 30 19:50:22 2003
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:50:22 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen's signed messages
Message-ID: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Damien commented:
> I am still getting all of Eugen's posts (such as this one) as attachments,
> not in the email message body. I dislike opening attachments, even from
> someone trustworthy (or someone pretending to be someone trustworthy, which
> is the problem).

Eugen is signing his messages using gpg, the popular open source
implementation of the OpenPGP standard for using public key cryptography.
The messages are MIME formatted per RFC 3156.  This creates a message
with two parts; the first part contains the message body, and the second
part contains the cryptographic signature.

MIME mail has several variants on multipart messages.  For cryptographic
signatures, multipart/signed is used.  So Eugen creates a multipart/signed
message that has two body parts.

However, the extropy-chat mailing list processor is then further processing
this message.  It wants to append the trailing lines, which we have all
seen:

: _______________________________________________
: extropy-chat mailing list
: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
: http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Normally it just sticks these lines onto the end of the message, but for
a MIME multipart message, this won't work.  You can't just append data
after the end of the multiparts, as that puts it outside the structure
and so it either will be ignored or might even cause some kind of error.

Nor can the extropy-chat mailer extend Eugen's multipart message with a
third part to hold the trailing lines, because multipart/signed messages
have specific rules that they should have exactly two parts.

So what the list does is to further wrap Eugen's multipart message in a
higher level multipart, this one of type multipart/mixed.  This type of
multipart is a sort of catchall or generic multipart, where the multiple
parts are intended to be displayed one after the other.

The multipart/mixed messages created by the list has two parts.  In the
first part, it puts Eugen's multipart/signed message (which itself has
two parts).  In the second part, it puts the three trailer lines above.
This is the message which the list sends out.  It has the following
structure:

multipart/mixed
    multipart/signed
        Eugen's message
        Eugen's signature
    extropy-chat list trailer

A compliant mailer will see through this complexity and display
the various parts directly.  Each of the parts has the tag:
"Content-Disposition: inline" which is a hint that the contents should
be displayed directly.  If it said "Content-Disposition: attachment"
then it should be displayed as an attachment (typically the contents
are saved as a file and the message displays a link to the file).

Ideally the mailer will even be smart enough to try to validate the
cryptographic signature.  But failing that, unrecognized multiparts are
specified to be treated as multipart/mixed, meaning that the parts should
just be displayed, one after the other.  And since each is marked for
"inline" display, that should further assure the mailer that the right
thing to do is to display the various messages parts, all concatenated
together.  The signature might present a problem, as it is of type
"application/pgp-signature" which a mailer might not recognize, so that
might be skipped or presented as an attachment.

However, many mailers are not this smart.  And the complex nature of the
message sent out by the list, with its two-level hierarchical structure,
probably doesn't help.  I don't know whether there exist mailers that
could handle a regular multipart/signed message while choking on one
that is embedded within multipart/mixed, but there might be some for
which this makes a difference.

The real lesson is that protocol implementations tend not to work properly
with data structures that they have not been tested on.  That's why
implementors have "bake-offs", get-togethers where they test each other's
programs and see if they can interoperate.  Surprisingly, even when
a well written spec is implemented by competent programmers, usually
things don't work on the first try (any more than any large program is
born free of bugs).  It's not a moral failing; it's just a manifestation
of the difficulty the human mind has in processing abstract information.

Hal

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: McAfee E-Business Server v7.1.2 - Full License

iQA/AwUBP6FrMKsSfKQ41E4qEQJ/yQCfUAWmCzz738LXtcK8ft/3lJRjKi0AoPi1
sWYBv0IYtR/UqqSJ6t1WCQdn
=+vxQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Oct 30 20:01:07 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:01:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
In-Reply-To: <103020031926.5815.38e2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301156070.4719-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 artillo at comcast.net wrote:

> "If I have seen further than others, it's because of my new-fangled
> ocular implants with 300mm telescoping zoom and image enhancement neural
> implant!"

If I will see farther than others, its because I plan to take
1% of the usable mass in the solar system and construct 100
billion telescopes the diameter of the moon.  Then I will
see *everything*.

R.




From artillo at comcast.net  Thu Oct 30 20:07:49 2003
From: artillo at comcast.net (artillo at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:07:49 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Words of wisdom and humor
Message-ID: <103020032007.28268.69fa@comcast.net>

hrmmmm maybe I was thinking too small? LOL
> 
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 artillo at comcast.net wrote:
> 
> > "If I have seen further than others, it's because of my new-fangled
> > ocular implants with 300mm telescoping zoom and image enhancement neural
> > implant!"
> 
> If I will see farther than others, its because I plan to take
> 1% of the usable mass in the solar system and construct 100
> billion telescopes the diameter of the moon.  Then I will
> see *everything*.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 20:13:53 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:13:53 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Hal Clement dead
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
Message-ID: <006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>

Famous `hard sf' writer Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) has died at 81:

http://www.locusmag.com/2003/News/10_Clement.html



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 30 20:50:18 2003
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (kevinfreels at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:50:18 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
References: <200310301814.h9UIEDRw032631@mailserver3.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE16zlrgjb8Nt00014528@hotmail.com>

They didn;t have HGH available when I was young, so I am stuck as a short
person until nano can fix it.
I'm still waiting for the "smart" pill that makes me think faster, improves
my memory to near perfection and will put me on par with the rest of you
though! :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kilroy" <kilroy at hush.ai>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil


> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:06:53 -0800 "Robert J. Bradbury"
<bradbury at aeiveos.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >And on the front of human "enhancement".  We can take HGH
> >(within some limits) but not various steroids that would
> >improve athletic performance (perhaps with some downside
> >in longevity, violent tendencies, etc. etc.).
>
> Can't, legally.  Can, practically.
> The health risks of a_steroids have been vastly
> overstated by the medical establishment.  The
> resulting "violent tendencies" are in my experience
> not as dramatic as those you get from drinking coffee,
> or (for other people) alcohol. The main health risk
> from our perspective (to males over age 25) is that,
> when you use a-steroids, you have to eat a lot more,
> and this may cause more oxidative damage to your organs.
> A-steroids are incompatible with caloric restriction,
> just as weightlifting itself is.
>
> The real main downside is that you may have a SWAT team
> break into your house, throw you and anybody else
> in the house to the ground and hold guns to your
> head and shout at you for a few hours, take your
> cars and your house and the contents of your bank
> accounts away, and send you to jail for a long time.
>
> Also, no, you can't take HGH in general, except to
> help short kids grow taller, or as replacement
> therapy when you're older. I don't recommend it
> for most people.  It will give you bigger muscles,
> but it makes your organs grow larger, which gives
> you a fat gut and possibly heart problems.
> Even short-term use of small amounts HGH by an
> adult can make you look fat.  Kids don't have
> these problems with HGH because a) their bones
> can grow longer as well as the rest of them,
> and b) their heart can possibly still adapt
> its timing to an increased size, tho you'd have
> to ask a cardiologist for sure.
>
> >And certainly
> >we should not be selling on street corners "do-it-yourself"
> >injections for gene therapies to turn yourself into Hulk Hogan.
>
> Once the basic risks are assessed and the remaining
> problems addressed, why not?
>
>
>
> Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get
> FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2
>
> Free, ultra-private instant messaging with Hush Messenger
> https://www.hushmail.com/services.php?subloc=messenger&l=434
>
> Promote security and make money with the Hushmail Affiliate Program:
> https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 21:31:41 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:31:41 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Hal Clement dead
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001801c39f2d$4f1f4560$b0994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Damien Broderick" <thespike at earthlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:13 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Hal Clement dead


> Famous `hard sf' writer Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) has died at 81:
> 
> http://www.locusmag.com/2003/News/10_Clement.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 21:36:46 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:36:46 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001901c39f2d$eda40540$b0994a43@texas.net>

My eReads sf novel (and Rory Barnes's) THE HUNGER OF TIME had a fairly
gruesome time getting on to amazon.com's system. It's finally there, and
they've made up for the delay by offering a larger image of Anders'
interesting jacket design for the book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0759255121.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It's still not as large as the trade paperback pic on the printed book, but
I do like the short-tailed doggie...

Damien Broderick
www.thespike.us



From thespike at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 30 21:42:10 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:42:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: finally amazon has the Anders cover up
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>
	<001901c39f2d$eda40540$b0994a43@texas.net>
	<002401c39f2e$6c2ce760$b0994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003701c39f2e$ae349720$b0994a43@texas.net>

The dreaded `Anders cover up' is of course one of the scandals of Swedish
technopolitical history. I hesitate to say more about its shocking details.




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 30 21:48:36 2003
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:48:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
In-Reply-To: <000001c39eb1$11454c20$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20031030214836.94493.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>

I am working on several designs for hardwood computer cases, to make
the PC box more aesthetically acceptable for executive desktops, as
well as for those seeking an organic look vs the cheap appliance look.

Anyone for a woody?
 
--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
> as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
> it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
> with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
> computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                                    - Gen. John Stark
Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
Pro-tech freedom discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


From reason at exratio.com  Thu Oct 30 22:04:54 2003
From: reason at exratio.com (Reason)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:04:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [wta-politics] Move to ban human cloning likely
	to divide UN
In-Reply-To: <B55E044559115F4B8C9EE62323C322B4032E2D92@hickory.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu>
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNKENMDHAA.reason@exratio.com>

The attacks on theraputic cloning are causing great damage to medical
progress in this field:

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=75791
"President Bush's current limitations on stem cell research and a bill that
would place criminal penalties on scientists who use a particular cloning
process are causing biotechnology corporations to fall apart or flee to
other countries, according to a stem cell scientist."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=534&e=3&u=/ap/20031027/ap_on
_sc/stem_cell_research
"if embryonic stem cell research had not been involved in politics we would
be far ahead of where we are today."

Stem cell research and theraputic cloning are fundamental to all the most
promising advances in regenerative medicine. This is not pie in the sky
science: amazing cures - for Parkinson's, heart disease, bone damage, nerve
damage, burns, liver damage, Crohn's, etc - have been demonstrated in the
labs or in early trials, only to be shut down, banned, or die off from lack
of funding. The current US administration - and many other governments
worldwide - have shown that their members do not care how much suffering
they are causing through their policies. Without activism and opposition, we
can all expect to live shorter, more painful lives: regenerative medicine is
a part of the fast track to extended healthy lives.

Please use the following links to see how you can help to make your voice
heard. I urge you to contact your elected representatives and tell them that
what they are doing (or allowing to happen) is immoral and wrong. Hundreds
of millions of people are suffering and dying today, now, from conditions
that could soon be cured, or might already be curable, if not for these
attacks on theraputic cloning and stem cell research.

A total ban on theraputic cloning in the US is still pending:

http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_the_theraputic_cloning_ban.cfm

The European Parliament is still looking at banning all stem cell research:

http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_the_european_stem_cell_ban.cfm

More information on the UN global ban on theraputic cloning is here:

http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_global_theraputic_cloning_ban.c
fm

The FDA has blocked a working therapy for heart disease that could save an
estimated 50,000 lives worldwide every day:

http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/protest_fda_interference.cfm

If stem cell therapies and theraputic cloning are banned, you, personally,
will one day die from a disease that would be have been curable. Today, now,
150,000 people will die worldwide, mostly from diseases and conditions that
will soon be curable, or would be curable without these attacks on medical
research. Are you going to let that go, or are you going to stand up and
fight the small faction of politicians who are trying to stop progress?

Reason
http://www.exratio.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wta-politics-admin at transhumanism.org
> [mailto:wta-politics-admin at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Hughes, James
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:40 PM
> To: wta-politics at transhumanism.org
> Subject: [wta-politics] Move to ban human cloning likely to divide UN
>
>
>
>
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
=StoryFT&cid=1066565433416
>
> Move to ban human cloning likely to divide UN
>
> By Mark Turner at the United Nations and Clive Cookson in London
>
> Published: October 28 2003 17:30 | Last Updated: October 28 2003 17:30
>
>
> The US and the UK, normally stalwart allies on the international stage,
> may be heading for a face-off at the United Nations over moves towards
> an international convention banning all forms of human cloning.
>
> Diplomats said a decision was expected this week or early next week on
> whether to press for a vote in the UN General Assembly. Costa Rica, the
> US and almost 60 other countries have sponsored a resolution calling for
> a convention against human cloning to be prepared by next year. In the
> meantime, it says states should prohibit the research, development or
> application of "any technique aimed at human cloning".
>
> While General Assembly resolutions are not binding, its supporters
> believe the agreement would send a powerful message about human
> society's willingness to set ethical boundaries on the fast-developing
> discipline of life sciences.
>
> The Costa Rica/US text calls human cloning, for any purpose, "unethical,
> morally repugnant and contrary to due respect for the human person".
>
> At the same time, however, Belgium, the UK, Japan, China and a
> significant minority of other UN members have sponsored a
> counter-resolution that would ban human reproductive cloning but allow
> "therapeutic cloning" for medical research. This is supported by most of
> the world's scientific academies, including the US National Academy of
> Sciences.
>
> Advocates for the counter-proposal, which has more than 20 co-sponsors,
> say their text reflects nations' right to determine for themselves where
> the boundaries lie. The UK argues that cloning early embryos for
> research could bring significant benefits to human society and does not
> violate the sanctity of life.
>
> US officials say they cannot accept a resolution allowing activity in a
> field the Bush administration believes is universally unacceptable.
> "It's important for the international community, even with a divided
> voice, but a strong voice, to send a message that cloning will not be
> tolerated," said one.
>
> But an opponent of the US position pointed out: "It is ironic that the
> administration should be pushing for an international convention to ban
> all cloning when it cannot even get Congress to agree on legislation."
>
> Faced with two irreconcilable positions, proponents of the Costa Rica
> text must choose whether to abandon the vote or press ahead with a
> resolution that a significant minority of countries oppose. Were the
> resolution to pass, the UN could face a situation where only some
> countries actively participated in, and eventually applied, a new
> convention.
>
> "You wouldn't get full participation in the negotiations, and who knows
> who would ratify it," said a UN diplomat who opposed the universal ban.
> "If you have a resolution only supporters sign up to, it doesn't
> strengthen regulation at all."
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wta-politics mailing list
> wta-politics at transhumanism.org
> http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-politics



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 30 22:26:56 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:26:56 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <web-21839761@rems07.cluster1.charter.net>
References: <3F8DC8620000936E@mta12.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
	<web-21839761@rems07.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <20031030222656.GO27418@leitl.org>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 10:46:41AM -0500, JAY DUGGER wrote:
> 
> I don't know if reuse could happen so easily. Lunar 
> gravity shouldn't pose a problem, but what about radiation 

1/6 g should do okay for pretty long stays. It may require a heavy exercise
schedule.

> exposure during transit and then on Luna? Burying the 

Two days transit. No problem, unless you run into a major solar storm with no
shielding.

> modules in the regolith once they arrive seems the easiest 

Right. Not that short stays will need any more shielding than the landing
module provides.

> way to shield them, but how much regolith do you need and 
> can the modules take it over the long term? Remember once 

How much regolith do you need to emulate the shielding Earth's atmosphere
provides? 1 m, maybe two.

> you bury them,  repairing the modules gets harder. How do 

Hello? You seem to think we're doing lunar mining here?

> you patch a leak from the inside only? One could do it, it 

If you're deep, a leak is no problem: material shields. Patching from the
inside as well: polymerizable monomer in situ. Leaks will happen (everything
we sent up to LEO has been leaking like a sieve) but there
are enough volatiles to replenish the losses on Luna.

> just takes more effort.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 30 22:28:06 2003
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:28:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <web-21839761@rems07.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <20031030222806.1512.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- JAY DUGGER <duggerj1 at charter.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:48:19 -0600
>   "Greg Burch" <gregburch at gregburch.net> wrote:
> >The design and construction of the various 
> >elements of the
> >ISS could be turned to building modular "hab modules" and 
> >other components
> >of a reusable translunar vehicle and a surface base. 
> 
> I don't know if reuse could happen so easily. Lunar 
> gravity shouldn't pose a problem, but what about radiation 
> exposure during transit and then on Luna? Burying the 
> modules in the regolith once they arrive seems the easiest 
> way to shield them, but how much regolith do you need and 
> can the modules take it over the long term? Remember once 
> you bury them,  repairing the modules gets harder. How do 
> you patch a leak from the inside only? One could do it, it 
> just takes more effort.

Firstly, regolith is dirt/sand in consistency, not rock. You apply it
with something like a snowblower, and you get it off with the same plus
a broom. (Lunar Sanitation Engineers Guild Local 001 Trainee Manual,
Care of Antique Lunar Modules for Idiots).

Secondly, leaks occur in space modules due to micrometeorite impacts,
primarily, along with radiation induced metal fatigue, both of which
regolith will mitigate.

Thirdly, since the pressure is on the inside and vacuum is on the
outside, the proper place to fix any leak is on the inside.

Radiation during lunar transit is not the sort of radiation that leaves
lasting harmful isotopes to any degree. It's cosmic rays and so forth,
photons, not neutron bombardment. Modules would not be transitted while
manned, most likely. Furthermore, there is no reason why transit cannot
occur in the earth's EM field shadow.

> 
> If 
> >my physics isn't
> >too off, even the ISS's cockeyed orbital inclination 
> >wouldn't be too much
> >of a handicap, since the cross-inclination vectoring 
> >could be leveraged
> >during translunar trajectory insertion so that the 
> >missions originating
> >at the ISS could still get into a lunar-equatorial orbit 
> >without too much
> >delta-vee.  Is this latter conjecture on my part true?
> 
> I can't help here. Where's Nick Szabo when you need him?

Actually, considering that the optimum place to land is near the lunar
south pole, where there is a site with near perpetual sunlight and
local suspected water deposits in dark craters, having high orbital
inclination is no big deal. You want to wind up in a polar orbit around
the moon when you get there to make a descent, but hohmann S transfer
orbits do not require that both ends be coplanar.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                                    - Gen. John Stark
Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
Pro-tech freedom discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Oct 30 22:45:37 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:15:37 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE028@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Wow... nice work Anders!

Emlyn
I'm sure the book's passable, too :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Broderick [mailto:thespike at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 7:07 AM
> To: Damien Broderick; ExI chat list
> Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
> 
> 
> My eReads sf novel (and Rory Barnes's) THE HUNGER OF TIME had a fairly
> gruesome time getting on to amazon.com's system. It's finally 
> there, and
> they've made up for the delay by offering a larger image of Anders'
> interesting jacket design for the book:
> 
> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0759255121.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> 
> It's still not as large as the trade paperback pic on the 
> printed book, but
> I do like the short-tailed doggie...
> 
> Damien Broderick
> www.thespike.us
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From duggerj1 at charter.net  Thu Oct 30 22:48:06 2003
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (JAY DUGGER)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:48:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <20031030222656.GO27418@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <web-6405436@rems05.cluster1.charter.net>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:26:56 +0100
  Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 10:46:41AM -0500, JAY DUGGER 
>wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know if reuse could happen so easily. Lunar 
>> gravity shouldn't pose a problem, but what about 
>>radiation 
>
>1/6 g should do okay for pretty long stays. It may 
>require a heavy exercise
>schedule.
>

I thought only of the structures, not of their crews.

>> exposure during transit and then on Luna? Burying the 
>
>Two days transit. No problem, unless you run into a major 
>solar storm with no
>shielding.
>

Do the ISS modules offer as much radiation protection as 
the Apollo CM and LM?

>> modules in the regolith once they arrive seems the 
>>easiest 
>
>Right. Not that short stays will need any more shielding 
>than the landing
>module provides.
>
>> way to shield them, but how much regolith do you need 
>>and 
>> can the modules take it over the long term? Remember 
>>once 
>
>How much regolith do you need to emulate the shielding 
>Earth's atmosphere
>provides? 1 m, maybe two.
>
>> you bury them,  repairing the modules gets harder. How 
>>do 
>
>Hello? You seem to think we're doing lunar mining here?

No, I don't. I do find hard it to imagine how to patch a 
hole on both sides when one side has regolith over to the 
depth of 1-2 m.

>If you're deep, a leak is no problem: material shields. 

Does regolith provide a good seal against gases leaking at 
cabin pressure? I expect that depends on how hard you 
could pack the stuff, or how you treat it. Could you use 
some sort of superglue or a plastic?

>Patching from the
>inside as well: polymerizable monomer in situ. Leaks will 
>happen (everything
>we sent up to LEO has been leaking like a sieve) but 
>there
>are enough volatiles to replenish the losses on Luna.
>

In the long run, sure. That seems unlikely for the kind of 
semi-permanent station suggested. One could grow crops in 
an indoor garden at McMurdo, but I bet that doesn't happen 
any more than buildings there get their construction 
materials from local mines.

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj
Sometimes delete serves best.


From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Oct 30 22:53:07 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:23:07 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02A@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Table top video games from the eighties are now collectable, AFAIK. Worse
luck for me, I've always wanted a tabletop galaga, but they cost too much
these days.

eg:
http://amos.catalogcity.com/cc.class/cc?pcd=5146816&ccsyn=22

Also, I've known people to go around collecting workable commodore 64 setups
these days. Don't do it! The memory of how cool they were is very fragile,
easily ruptured by a dose of reality :-(

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Spike [mailto:spike66 at comcast.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 4:13 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
> 
> 
> 
> Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
> as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
> it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
> with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
> computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From duggerj1 at charter.net  Thu Oct 30 22:54:51 2003
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (JAY DUGGER)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:54:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <20031030222806.1512.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <web-6405513@rems05.cluster1.charter.net>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:28:06 -0800 (PST)
  Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Firstly, regolith is dirt/sand in consistency, not rock. 
>You apply it
>with something like a snowblower, and you get it off with 
>the same plus
>a broom. (Lunar Sanitation Engineers Guild Local 001 
>Trainee Manual,
>Care of Antique Lunar Modules for Idiots).
>

I don't know much lunar geology. Won't regolith 
composition vary greatly over the surface? I can see this 
holding true some places. There it might be a little 
sweeping to place and remove the stuff.

>Secondly, leaks occur in space modules due to 
>micrometeorite impacts,
>primarily, along with radiation induced metal fatigue, 
>both of which
>regolith will mitigate.
>

Welds don't fail, I suppose? Metal never fatigues due to 
mechanical stress, from launch or temperature variation? 
Such failure might not happen very often, but help lies 
far away.

>Thirdly, since the pressure is on the inside and vacuum 
>is on the
>outside, the proper place to fix any leak is on the 
>inside.
>

I'd feel much safer with a patch on _both_ sides of a hole 
and sealant between the two layers, but I have no 
experience with repairing pressure chambers and so admit 
ignorance.


Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj
Sometimes delete serves best.


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Thu Oct 30 22:35:17 2003
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:35:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Hal Clement dead
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <bns3n5$1ovt$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Damien Broderick <thespike at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Famous `hard sf' writer Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) has died at 81:
> http://www.locusmag.com/2003/News/10_Clement.html

I'm sad to hear this.  Hal Clement was one of my favorite authors.
His works have practically defined the hard SF subgenre.  Clement's
overall position in SF has been something of a paradox.  On the one
hand, weaknesses in his books are easy to point out (cardboard
characters, clunky prose) and he didn't receive any individual
awards for them, but on the other hand he was undisputely one of
the genre's greats.

In his non-writing life, Clement was a high school science teacher
and it shows in his novels.  No speculation about the nooks and
crannies of General Relativity, no, Clement remained firmly within
the borders of classical physics.  Elementary mechanics and
thermodynamics, a bit of chemistry.  The main topic of his novels
was the exploration of hostile environments by the protagonists,
sometimes human, sometimes alien, sometimes on Earth, sometimes
beyond.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From pietroferri at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 30 23:42:38 2003
From: pietroferri at hotmail.com (pietro ferri)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:42:38 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil
Message-ID: <BAY2-F148v1zMAf863V00007c0a@hotmail.com>

>>I was going to wait until Pietro had told us which of Ray's ideas he 
>>wanted to see analyzed in depth.<<
First, thank you all for sharing so many comments. Of particular interest to 
me is Ray?s timeline and his predictions ( 2019 2029 and 2099). I believe 
that no one has yet produced such a detailed series of predictions ( with a 
precise timeline). It would be really great if Damien (and all the others) 
commented in depth. Actually Max More some time ago did just that in a very 
interesting exchange with Ray himself.
For instance, one idea I feel confident enough to challenge ( having, maybe 
a bit casually, studied economics as part of my business administration 
degrees) is Ray?s prediction (for 2009), and I cite, ? THE GREATEST GAINS 
CONTINUE TO BE IN THE VALUE OF THE STOCK MARKET. Price deflation concerned 
economists in the early ?00 years, but they quickly realized it was a good 
thing?.     Well, I do have a problem with the above sentence. I would say ( 
and please Max comment, since you are a Oxford economist!) that, over the 
long term, the total stock exchange market capitalization is clearly 
correlated to GDP (in nominal terms). So, if GDP has not grown in nominal 
terms (because of the deflation ray predicts) it is strange to say that 
stocks have continued to significantly rise. After all, stock prices are 
(over the long term) very strongly correlated to earnings. And, admitting 
that profit margins cannot improve for everybody, there is no way that 
companies can make more money in nominal terms if prices fall for a 
sustained period of time ( again, as Ray predicts). The only possibility is 
for GDP to grow at a very strong pace for a long period, to compensate for 
the deflation. For example if GDP grew at an average of 2 percent per year 
(in nominal terms) and deflation were ?only? 3 per cent, then we could have 
rising stock prices. But this implies a growth rate in real terms of 5 per 
cent: for a developed economy (like the US and Europe) something extremely 
difficult to achieve over the long term.
What do you guys think?

Also, Damien I feel that you do have several things you disagree with Ray 
about. Why don?t you challenge him directly? After all his latest book is 
called ? Ray Kurzweil versus the critics of strong AI? where several expert 
challenged him. I found the book extremely interesting and useful ( by the 
way, it also lies on my night table!). I do think that Ray is precisely 
searching for challengers to his ideas, and this is also a reason why he 
asked both Max and Eric Drexler for comments/clarifications.

Finally, does anyone know when ?The Singularity is Near? will finally be 
published?  Max, I remember that at Extro5 he said that the book would have 
been published in 2002. Here a wrong prediction of his! J

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus



From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 00:01:08 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:01:08 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil
References: <BAY2-F148v1zMAf863V00007c0a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010701c39f42$18276a00$b0994a43@texas.net>

Thanks for clarifications, Pietro

----- Original Message -----
From: "pietro ferri" <pietroferri at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 5:42 PM

> Of particular interest to
> me is Ray?s timeline and his predictions ( 2019 2029 and 2099). I believe
> that no one has yet produced such a detailed series of predictions ( with
a
> precise timeline). It would be really great if Damien (and all the others)
> commented in depth.

My sense is that the whole notion of technological singularity *precludes*
detailed prediction. That's what I keep asserting all through my book.
Science is radically unpredictable; technology is tied to somewhat
unpredictable socially-driven discontinuities. As far as I can see, the
Spike might happen any time between next week and the end of the century. Or
a thousand years from now if there's a terrible global disaster. It's
probably happened repeatedly on many other worlds, and could therefore
impact us from outside at any time. And so on. (But I do regard Ray's 2099
as rather surprisingly late for the effects he describes.)

Your specific economic considerations will probably be addressed by the
economically literate on the list--as well as by everyone else. :)

> Also, Damien I feel that you do have several things you disagree with Ray
> about. Why don?t you challenge him directly? After all his latest book is
> called ? Ray Kurzweil versus the critics of strong AI?

I'm not a critic of strong AI, quite the reverse. I have no argument with
Ray in that respect. I'm complaining only about a supposed
`law' that's been operating to create `progress' since the Big Bang. It's a
matter of scale and mechanism. In fact I don't disagree with Ray that the
outliers of complexity have been wandering away from the baseline wall of
simplicity (even Steve Gould didn't deny that), just that it's not this
simple, and it's not a law. Calling it a law makes the idea sound like a
discredited version of `scientific Marxism'.

Dumb luck (and competitive/cooperative survival) took structures to the
takeoff point. After that, it's intelligence and memory and copyable
*recorded* memory (very important) and population density of communicating
brains and surplus... None of which has the slightest bearing on the
unintelligent parts of the cosmos pre-humankind. Which is my one and only
point, and I think Ray needs to make the difference clear, or he'll seem to
be pushing the same crapulous line as the intelligent design bozos.

> Finally, does anyone know when ?The Singularity is Near? will finally be
> published?

`?The Singularity is Near? is Not That Near' :)

Damien Broderick



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Oct 30 23:53:39 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:53:39 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Hal Clement dead
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<006d01c39f22$5b9fa740$609d4a43@texas.net>
	<bns3n5$1ovt$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <028c01c39f41$0afdc640$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:

> Damien Broderick <thespike at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Famous `hard sf' writer Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) has 
> > died at 81:  http://www.locusmag.com/2003/News/10_Clement.html
> 
> I'm sad to hear this.  Hal Clement was one of my favorite authors.

So often obituaries are like this - one gets the sense that it would have 
been good to know these folks whilst they were alive.

Clements caught my attention as an interesting name for a writer
but I think the other guy I had in mind by the name of Samuel was not
exactly a Clements - but I could be wrong ;-) Back to work for me.

Brett



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Fri Oct 31 00:18:03 2003
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:18:03 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [wta-politics] Move to ban human cloning likely
	to divide UN
References: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNKENMDHAA.reason@exratio.com>
Message-ID: <029201c39f44$738fc3e0$11262dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Hmm, I must read through all this it looks real interesting, thanks for
posting
it Reason.

I just had a great idea for a business. Just imagine if there was no law and
order
anymore because people didn't care about or weren't interested in the UN
Charter or the Constitutions of their countries. Somewhere sometime a great
leader might emerge as the commander in chief of a great military power that
was determined to reshape the whole world according to its own great image.
Of  course being the great power it would have trade links with nearly
everyone
and anyone that it couldn't out-compete it could handicap 'cause after all
what
is international law worth really and what has it done for us lately. The
important
thing would be to ensure that the various small players didn't hang together
and
ruin your protection racket so one would have to hire a few capable folk as
under-bosses and pay 'em off so they could be relaxed and comfortable. That
way one could control the rate of change in society by banning or curtailing
those who might have more talent and skill.

Interesting notion, but I guess nah it would never work, people are just
too smart for that ;-) And then one little piece of space junk wandering in
might ruin your whole day. Ant politics is likely to be a matter of supreme
indifference to ant-eaters. Besides we can rely on people who like closed
societies to lie :-)

Brett

PS: Reason wrote and I will not amend it 'cause I like it - its provocative
and bears re-reading.

> The attacks on theraputic cloning are causing great damage to medical
> progress in this field:
>
> http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=75791
> "President Bush's current limitations on stem cell research and a bill
that
> would place criminal penalties on scientists who use a particular cloning
> process are causing biotechnology corporations to fall apart or flee to
> other countries, according to a stem cell scientist."
>
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=534&e=3&u=/ap/20031027/ap_on
> _sc/stem_cell_research
> "if embryonic stem cell research had not been involved in politics we
would
> be far ahead of where we are today."
>
> Stem cell research and theraputic cloning are fundamental to all the most
> promising advances in regenerative medicine. This is not pie in the sky
> science: amazing cures - for Parkinson's, heart disease, bone damage,
nerve
> damage, burns, liver damage, Crohn's, etc - have been demonstrated in the
> labs or in early trials, only to be shut down, banned, or die off from
lack
> of funding. The current US administration - and many other governments
> worldwide - have shown that their members do not care how much suffering
> they are causing through their policies. Without activism and opposition,
we
> can all expect to live shorter, more painful lives: regenerative medicine
is
> a part of the fast track to extended healthy lives.
>
> Please use the following links to see how you can help to make your voice
> heard. I urge you to contact your elected representatives and tell them
that
> what they are doing (or allowing to happen) is immoral and wrong. Hundreds
> of millions of people are suffering and dying today, now, from conditions
> that could soon be cured, or might already be curable, if not for these
> attacks on theraputic cloning and stem cell research.
>
> A total ban on theraputic cloning in the US is still pending:
>
>
http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_the_theraputic_cloning_ban.cfm
>
> The European Parliament is still looking at banning all stem cell
research:
>
>
http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_the_european_stem_cell_ban.cfm
>
> More information on the UN global ban on theraputic cloning is here:
>
>
http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/oppose_global_theraputic_cloning_ban.c
> fm
>
> The FDA has blocked a working therapy for heart disease that could save an
> estimated 50,000 lives worldwide every day:
>
> http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/protest_fda_interference.cfm
>
> If stem cell therapies and theraputic cloning are banned, you, personally,
> will one day die from a disease that would be have been curable. Today,
now,
> 150,000 people will die worldwide, mostly from diseases and conditions
that
> will soon be curable, or would be curable without these attacks on medical
> research. Are you going to let that go, or are you going to stand up and
> fight the small faction of politicians who are trying to stop progress?
>
> Reason
> http://www.exratio.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wta-politics-admin at transhumanism.org
> > [mailto:wta-politics-admin at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Hughes, James
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 12:40 PM
> > To: wta-politics at transhumanism.org
> > Subject: [wta-politics] Move to ban human cloning likely to divide UN
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
> =StoryFT&cid=1066565433416
> >
> > Move to ban human cloning likely to divide UN
> >
> > By Mark Turner at the United Nations and Clive Cookson in London
> >
> > Published: October 28 2003 17:30 | Last Updated: October 28 2003 17:30
> >
> >
> > The US and the UK, normally stalwart allies on the international stage,
> > may be heading for a face-off at the United Nations over moves towards
> > an international convention banning all forms of human cloning.
> >
> > Diplomats said a decision was expected this week or early next week on
> > whether to press for a vote in the UN General Assembly. Costa Rica, the
> > US and almost 60 other countries have sponsored a resolution calling for
> > a convention against human cloning to be prepared by next year. In the
> > meantime, it says states should prohibit the research, development or
> > application of "any technique aimed at human cloning".
> >
> > While General Assembly resolutions are not binding, its supporters
> > believe the agreement would send a powerful message about human
> > society's willingness to set ethical boundaries on the fast-developing
> > discipline of life sciences.
> >
> > The Costa Rica/US text calls human cloning, for any purpose, "unethical,
> > morally repugnant and contrary to due respect for the human person".
> >
> > At the same time, however, Belgium, the UK, Japan, China and a
> > significant minority of other UN members have sponsored a
> > counter-resolution that would ban human reproductive cloning but allow
> > "therapeutic cloning" for medical research. This is supported by most of
> > the world's scientific academies, including the US National Academy of
> > Sciences.
> >
> > Advocates for the counter-proposal, which has more than 20 co-sponsors,
> > say their text reflects nations' right to determine for themselves where
> > the boundaries lie. The UK argues that cloning early embryos for
> > research could bring significant benefits to human society and does not
> > violate the sanctity of life.
> >
> > US officials say they cannot accept a resolution allowing activity in a
> > field the Bush administration believes is universally unacceptable.
> > "It's important for the international community, even with a divided
> > voice, but a strong voice, to send a message that cloning will not be
> > tolerated," said one.
> >
> > But an opponent of the US position pointed out: "It is ironic that the
> > administration should be pushing for an international convention to ban
> > all cloning when it cannot even get Congress to agree on legislation."
> >
> > Faced with two irreconcilable positions, proponents of the Costa Rica
> > text must choose whether to abandon the vote or press ahead with a
> > resolution that a significant minority of countries oppose. Were the
> > resolution to pass, the UN could face a situation where only some
> > countries actively participated in, and eventually applied, a new
> > convention.
> >
> > "You wouldn't get full participation in the negotiations, and who knows
> > who would ratify it," said a UN diplomat who opposed the universal ban.
> > "If you have a resolution only supporters sign up to, it doesn't
> > strengthen regulation at all."




From MBAUMEISTR at aol.com  Fri Oct 31 01:29:24 2003
From: MBAUMEISTR at aol.com (MBAUMEISTR at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:29:24 EST
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
Message-ID: <12f.3406b86e.2cd314f4@aol.com>

In a message dated 2003-10-30 16:51:38 Eastern Standard Time, 
mlorrey at yahoo.com writes:

> I am working on several designs for hardwood computer cases, to make
>  the PC box more aesthetically acceptable for executive desktops, as
>  well as for those seeking an organic look vs the cheap appliance look.


And boy oh boy do they need it nowadays!  Cheap appliance hardly describes 
new ones properly. They remind me of those disposable Glad microwave containers. 
Yuk.

I've seen plans for cases made of Lego!  (I think it was a UF link many moons 
ago.)

Regards,
MB


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 01:39:31 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:39:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <20031030222806.1512.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301729570.13235-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> Actually, considering that the optimum place to land is near the lunar
> south pole, where there is a site with near perpetual sunlight and
> local suspected water deposits in dark craters, having high orbital
> inclination is no big deal.

Yea, and when you pile up the ice/snow into a nice smooth slope
and ski down the crater walls and hit the jump just right and
pull off the 18 summersault, 12 twist arial display you are
going to make the stuff the do back on Earth look like caca.

(Side note to Mike -- the PC not only has to look good in the
exec. office it has to be very very quiet.  I think there was
a note on /. recently (though my memory of sources is fuzzy)
about someone designing a PC case with lots of right angle
turns on the air intakes/outflows -- suggested it seems to
suppress internal the fan noise well.)

R.




From ABlainey at aol.com  Fri Oct 31 01:39:27 2003
From: ABlainey at aol.com (ABlainey at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:39:27 EST
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Hal Clement dead
Message-ID: <1a5.1b4e3c2c.2cd3174f@aol.com>

In a message dated 31/10/2003 01:10:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au writes:


> So often obituaries are like this - one gets the sense that it would have 
> been good to know these folks whilst they were alive.
> 
> 

So very true, A man I often passed on the street just six miles from my house 
turned out to be Stanley Kubrick. Its amazing how often we miss opportunities 
to meet great people because we are busy rushing through our own lives.
In my case, I was busy rushing to work and didn't recognise the face when it 
was out of context. The penny only dropped when I saw the news of his death.

Alex
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From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Fri Oct 31 01:46:36 2003
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:16:36 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02E@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

That's an excellent idea, Mike; long overdue. Beautiful polished wood cases
for desktops should have a nice niche amongst the beige-hating tasteful
(count me in :-)

Have you thought about a wooden keyboard? Finicky, but I would think it was
doable. Also, maybe a wooden mouse; with both of these you should be able to
replace the plastic casing & keys I would think.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Lorrey [mailto:mlorrey at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 7:19 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] antique computers
> 
> 
> I am working on several designs for hardwood computer cases, to make
> the PC box more aesthetically acceptable for executive desktops, as
> well as for those seeking an organic look vs the cheap appliance look.
> 
> Anyone for a woody?
>  
> --- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> > Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
> > as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
> > it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
> > with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
> > computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> > groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  
> > 
> > spike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                                     - Gen. John Stark
> Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
> Pro-tech freedom discussion:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From pietroferri at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 31 02:01:36 2003
From: pietroferri at hotmail.com (pietro ferri)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:01:36 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil 
Message-ID: <BAY2-F150Ws6Wxm5LEG0000ca1d@hotmail.com>

>My sense is that the whole notion of technological singularity *precludes*
>detailed prediction. That's what I keep asserting all through my book.
>Science is radically unpredictable; technology is tied to somewhat
>unpredictable socially-driven discontinuities. As far as I can see, the
>Spike might happen any time between next week and the end of the century.

Exaclty! My point is to state that you profoundly diagree with Ray's 
timeline predictions because, in your own words, science is radically 
unpredictable. But when one reads Ray's books one gets the feeling that 
future science/technology IS predictable, or at the very least broadly 
predictable.

>I'm not a critic of strong AI, quite the reverse. I have no argument with
>Ray in that respect.

Well, I just wanted to make the point that Ray likes to publicly debate with 
his critics, whether it be about AI , His "Laws" or whatever. o, why don't 
you debate about the "Law" direclty with him? I am sure that it would be of 
great interest to every extropian!

>`?The Singularity is Near? is Not That Near' :)

Maybe next week? :-)

Pietro Ferri

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 02:30:39 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:30:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F148v1zMAf863V00007c0a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301744160.13235-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Pietro -- you raise a number of interesting points.

(First let me acknowledge that I have not read either "The Age of Intelligent
Machines" or "The Age of Spiritual Machines".  (My bad probably, but I tended
to view the contents as likely to be highly similar to Moravec's works.)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, pietro ferri wrote:

> First, thank you all for sharing so many comments. Of particular interest to
> me is Ray's timeline and his predictions ( 2019 2029 and 2099).

While I might lean strongly towards predictions Ray might make with
respect to 2019 and 2029 -- anything involving 2099 is SciFi.  It is
one of the fundamental problems with the Extropian perspective, all
Sci-Fi literature related to the singularity, etc. -- how do you
map the singularity without having a reasonable metric for what
scientific progress along that vector might actually provide (in
terms of tools to bend reality with)?

To the best of my knowledge there are probably less than two dozen people
on the planet who can engage in this discussion at a technical level.
Anders, myself, Eliezer, Robert Freitas, Vernor Vinge, Greg Benford, etc.
You could add on a number of physicists other technical experts but
one would rapidly get lost in a swamp of depth rather than breadth.
(I'm leaving out the individuals who would provide significant input
on the sociological or philosophical levels because that makes the
problem even more difficult.)

> It would be really great if Damien (and all the others) commented in depth.

If you post specific predictions I'll be happy to yea or nay them.

> ... and I cite, THE GREATEST GAINS CONTINUE TO BE IN THE VALUE OF THE
> STOCK MARKET.

Well it seems to have been true for 100+ years (when averaged).

> Price deflation concerned economists in the early '00 years, but they quickly
> realized it was a good thing.

[Note I'm not sure I'm interpreting this properly since I'm having to transliterate
some quote and other punctuation marks from Microsoftisms into standard ASCII text.]

I'm not sure I understand this.  Price deflation is not a good thing if
it causes the population as a whole to postpone consumption (because things
will be cheaper in the future).  Lack of consumption leads to layoffs leads
to a decline in purchasing ability, etc., etc., etc.  The only viable industries
are those involved in "essential" consumer products (e.g. agriculture).
Japan is facing this in a significant way with its aging population.
(Aged populations do not have lots of consumption/purchasing needs other
than for medical care.)

> After all, stock prices are
> (over the long term) very strongly correlated to earnings. And, admitting
> that profit margins cannot improve for everybody, there is no way that
> companies can make more money in nominal terms if prices fall for a
> sustained period of time (again, as Ray predicts).

I think the key thing to recognize here is the evolution of the market.
After all *where* would I be if I held onto my Digital Equipment stock
purchased in the 1970's?  Or my WorldCom or Enron Stock purchased in
the 1990s?  I think one would expect investors to move out of the
deflationary markets -- unless companies can sustain profits -- and
move into those areas where profits (and earnings) are increasing.

> What do you guys think?  (Re: 5% growth)

You are asking a *very* difficult question.  You can probably get 5%
growth if you have sufficient risk taking.  But with the risk taking
you have to allow for failure.  Europe and Japan have tended to avoid
risk taking (IMO).  In contrast the U.S. went for broke from '98-'01
and crashed and burned as a result.

It is well accepted in economic circles that most of the growth
comes from new companies, new ideas, etc. (i.e. the *risky* proposals).
If the economies support the formation (and failure) of such efforts
then you may get high growth -- if they do not then you don't.

> Finally, does anyone know when "The Singularity is Near" will finally be
> published?  Max, I remember that at Extro5 he said that the book would have
> been published in 2002. Here a wrong prediction of his!

I have it on reasonable authority that the publisher has pushed
the publication into early 2005.  This may be due in part due to slow progress
on some of the chapters (in part due to Ray's time constraints) but to a much
greater extent is due to the publisher having to adjust the schedules of various
other publications with respect to SIN.

(Damien or Mez could comment much better than I on what goes through the
minds of publishers...)

Robert




From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 03:29:44 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:29:44 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02E@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <019801c39f5f$3c63f880$b0994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 7:46 PM

>Also, maybe a wooden mouse

Or a little wooden horsie. Computers Of Troy and all that.

But what about a *real* mouse?

Damien Broderick




From artillo at comcast.net  Fri Oct 31 04:28:05 2003
From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:28:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <20031030222656.GO27418@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <001101c39f67$61268c70$9865fea9@bjsmain2>

I've heard some ideas a while back about making some form of concrete
with the regolith... maybe they could mix some nice polymers in with it
and also make it sprayable and just spray it over the module shells?
Also a double layer shell might be a partial solution to the leak
issue... just add some sensors in the outer shell and intermediate space
and go in between the shells to patch? Aah maybe there's a simpler
solution; I am just playing with some ideas here.

Would some kind of electromagnetic shielding help in any way versus
radiation, assuming one could be developed that was powerful enough? Is
it really just high energy emissions people are most worried about? This
is a bit out of my experience here, any ideas? :)

Peace,

Artillo

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 5:27 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 10:46:41AM -0500, JAY DUGGER wrote:
> 
> I don't know if reuse could happen so easily. Lunar 
> gravity shouldn't pose a problem, but what about radiation 

1/6 g should do okay for pretty long stays. It may require a heavy
exercise
schedule.

> exposure during transit and then on Luna? Burying the 

Two days transit. No problem, unless you run into a major solar storm
with no
shielding.

> modules in the regolith once they arrive seems the easiest 

Right. Not that short stays will need any more shielding than the
landing
module provides.

> way to shield them, but how much regolith do you need and 
> can the modules take it over the long term? Remember once 

How much regolith do you need to emulate the shielding Earth's
atmosphere
provides? 1 m, maybe two.

> you bury them,  repairing the modules gets harder. How do 

Hello? You seem to think we're doing lunar mining here?

> you patch a leak from the inside only? One could do it, it 

If you're deep, a leak is no problem: material shields. Patching from
the
inside as well: polymerizable monomer in situ. Leaks will happen
(everything
we sent up to LEO has been leaking like a sieve) but there
are enough volatiles to replenish the losses on Luna.

> just takes more effort.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE



From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Oct 31 04:58:24 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:58:24 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
In-Reply-To: <20031030214836.94493.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000101c39f6b$9d789bb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

Hey the first Apples were in a wooden box, of sorts.
In some ways they were better than the plastic cases
that came after.  spike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Mike Lorrey
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:49 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] antique computers
> 
> 
> I am working on several designs for hardwood computer cases, to make
> the PC box more aesthetically acceptable for executive desktops, as
> well as for those seeking an organic look vs the cheap appliance look.
> 
> Anyone for a woody?
>  
> --- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> > Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
> > as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
> > it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
> > with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
> > computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> > groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?  
> > 
> > spike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                                     - Gen. John Stark
> Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
> Pro-tech freedom discussion:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 31 09:38:01 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:38:01 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <001101c39f67$61268c70$9865fea9@bjsmain2>
References: <20031030222656.GO27418@leitl.org>
	<001101c39f67$61268c70$9865fea9@bjsmain2>
Message-ID: <20031031093801.GX27418@leitl.org>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:28:05PM -0500, Brian Shores wrote:
> I've heard some ideas a while back about making some form of concrete
> with the regolith... maybe they could mix some nice polymers in with it

Regolith would do a nice cement if mixed with water -- but you can't do that
in a vaccum, and water (destilled from lunar cryotrap regolith) will be much
too expensive for that.

I don't see what is wrong with just piling up mounds of regolith on
modules/tubes. It works better if one can dig shallow ditches. Later, 
it's a nonissue as one would tend to tunnel (closed-loop ecosystems need a
lot of space to be stable).

> and also make it sprayable and just spray it over the module shells?
> Also a double layer shell might be a partial solution to the leak
> issue... just add some sensors in the outer shell and intermediate space

The leak issue is minor; it's a slow loss of volatiles. It should be even
more minor for deep structures. It is certainly good engineering trying to
minimize leaks.

> and go in between the shells to patch? Aah maybe there's a simpler
> solution; I am just playing with some ideas here.
> 
> Would some kind of electromagnetic shielding help in any way versus
> radiation, assuming one could be developed that was powerful enough? Is

Radiation is not a problem, really. It will only become one if you're stuck
in a thin tin can halfway to Mars, and there's a solar storm coming your way,
and you don't have a small shielded cabin inside (shielding the whole
structure requires prohibitive amount of mass).

> it really just high energy emissions people are most worried about? This
> is a bit out of my experience here, any ideas? :)

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From amara at amara.com  Fri Oct 31 09:10:12 2003
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:10:12 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Boing-boing ?
Message-ID: <p05100300bbc7d6b553e6@[150.146.134.133]>

Something has happened to boing-boing: http://www.boingboing.net/

Is this a Halloween prank, or has something serious happened
to the wonderful boing-boing folks ?

Amara

-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
enscarfment n. a food break at the edge of a cliff.


From asa at nada.kth.se  Fri Oct 31 11:23:31 2003
From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:23:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: finally amazon has the Anders cover up
In-Reply-To: <003701c39f2e$ae349720$b0994a43@texas.net>
References: <200310301950.h9UJoMo01001@finney.org>
	<002401c39f2e$6c2ce760$b0994a43@texas.net>
	<003701c39f2e$ae349720$b0994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <200310311223.31912.asa@nada.kth.se>

torsdagen den 30 oktober 2003 22.42 wrote Damien Broderick:
> The dreaded `Anders cover up' is of course one of the scandals of Swedish
> technopolitical history. I hesitate to say more about its shocking details.

And I couldn't possibly comment. Inner exile to Sony-Ericsson Mobile Phones 
and all that if I ever did... :-)



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 31 12:16:27 2003
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:16:27 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F150Ws6Wxm5LEG0000ca1d@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY2-F150Ws6Wxm5LEG0000ca1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20031031121627.GA27418@leitl.org>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 02:01:36AM +0000, pietro ferri wrote:
> 
> Exaclty! My point is to state that you profoundly diagree with Ray's 
> timeline predictions because, in your own words, science is radically 
> unpredictable. But when one reads Ray's books one gets the feeling that 

Futurology has never been an exact science. Even if we're speaking about
science: which natural phenomena can we predict? Planetary orbits, on the
short run. They disintegrate into chaos on the long run. Development of
stars, roughly. The product of forecast precision and temporal depth tends to have
pretty small, constant values even for such well-behaved systems. 

Humans are very nonlinear systems. Large assemblies of humans sometimes appear to
operate in the predictable regime, but when exactly can be only determined
via hindsight. Progress depends on a chain of inventions, so it's a
multiple-event forecast, where each even influences the subsequent ones. Even
worse, the breakthroughs have a tendency to come from unexpected places,
completely ruining your neat plans and plots. 

A rational futurologist must admit his defeat.

> future science/technology IS predictable, or at the very least broadly 
> predictable.

Don't you have the feeling that words "one gets the feeling" and
"predictable" do not quite mix? It is frequently quite amusing to study
forecasts from 1980s, and those from 1950s are outright hilarious. In a world
with an increasing rate of change the horizont is increasingly shrinking. 
I would be very careful trying to forecast 2013, 2023 is way, way out of
reach already except in very rough outlines (population, energy budget, etc.;
all of these can still be changed by something dramatic and unexpected).
 
> >I'm not a critic of strong AI, quite the reverse. I have no argument with
> >Ray in that respect.
> 
> Well, I just wanted to make the point that Ray likes to publicly debate 
> with his critics, whether it be about AI , His "Laws" or whatever. o, why 

Ray Kurzweil is not original. He does good work in publicising the ideas,
though. I have at times problems with his style, but that's a personal
opinion. (Young Chang makes damn good instruments, though. Does anyone know
a better budget stage piano than SP88X? I'm hearing the samples are good, but
not great. I'm looking for possible alternatives). 

> don't you debate about the "Law" direclty with him? I am sure that it would 
> be of great interest to every extropian!

I'm not at all sure that would be the case.
 
> >`?The Singularity is Near? is Not That Near' :)
> 
> Maybe next week? :-)

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
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From scerir at libero.it  Fri Oct 31 12:54:19 2003
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:54:19 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02E@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
	<019801c39f5f$3c63f880$b0994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001401c39fae$1a290e50$22b21b97@administxl09yj>

> But what about a *real* mouse? 
> Damien Broderick

Baldock, R.A., Bard J. , Kaufman M.H. and Davidson D, 
"A real mouse for your computer", BioEssays 14 (1992) 
pp 501-502

(But the title was wrong, something like
"A real computer for your mouse" would be 
much better)



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Oct 31 15:33:19 2003
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:33:19 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Boing-boing ?
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bbc7d6b553e6@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031031073217.032949f0@pop.earthlink.net>

At 11:10 AM 10/31/03 +0200, you wrote:
>Something has happened to boing-boing: http://www.boingboing.net/

Carla and Mark are living on a Island in the South Pacific. They are doing 
very well.  They sent me a dozen pictures of their life there a month 
ago.  I offered to be their nanny :-)

Natasha


Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
----------
President, Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture  http://www.transhumanist.biz
http://www.transhuman.org
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From asa at nada.kth.se  Fri Oct 31 14:38:48 2003
From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:38:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
In-Reply-To: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE028@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE028@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <200310311538.48310.asa@nada.kth.se>

torsdagen den 30 oktober 2003 23.45 wrote Emlyn O'regan:
> Wow... nice work Anders!

Thanks!



From amara at amara.com  Fri Oct 31 13:45:55 2003
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:45:55 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Boing-boing
Message-ID: <p05100301bbc81577d296@[150.146.134.133]>

Dear Natasha:
>Carla and Mark are living on a Island in the South Pacific.
>They are doing very well.

Yes, Among the many offerings of the boing-boing site, was/is/was
Mark and Carla's chronology of their life on that island.

No, this development is something different. Boing-boing was down
(their domain was not even recognized) during the last few days, and
now this. ( http://www.boingboing.net/)

... Thanks for the info Eugen and James Hughes. So they are experiencing
server problems.

(Natasha: you can go here: http://216.126.84.59/)

-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"In my opinion, television validates existence." --Calvin


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 15:11:45 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <001101c39f67$61268c70$9865fea9@bjsmain2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310656580.26596-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Brian Shores wrote:

> I've heard some ideas a while back about making some form of concrete
> with the regolith... maybe they could mix some nice polymers in with it
> and also make it sprayable and just spray it over the module shells?

Why not a simple production plant to crank out either sheet silicon
or titanium -- plenty of both up there.  Welding titanium is a bit
tricky but ought to eliminate the loss of gas problem Eugen was
discussing.  Since you have to separate O2 from the Si/Ti anyway,
it isn't going to be the problem.  Its N2 that is going to be the
problem.  Now of course one could substitute He3 which there is
a fair amount of and one wants to mine anyway for its use in fusion
reactors.  Downsides would be that the astronauts would talk funny
and He3 is moderately radioactive.

> Would some kind of electromagnetic shielding help in any way versus
> radiation, assuming one could be developed that was powerful enough? Is
> it really just high energy emissions people are most worried about? This
> is a bit out of my experience here, any ideas? :)

I'm reasonably certain that normal plasma coming off the sun (the solar
wind) as well as coronal mass ejections (which have been in the news
of late) are largely positively charged ions (solar surface temperatures
are more than hot enough to remove a significant number of the outermost
electrons from most elements).  Whether or not the electrons get thrown
off too and they effectively recombine to form neutral atoms I'm a bit
unsure of (I would suspect the probability is low).  So it seems probable
that with a big enough electromagnetic shield one should be able to deflect
many of the particles.  [Seems to me like the Earth's magnetic field functions
in this way for us.]  Amara might know more.  How difficult it would be to
produce such a magnetic field I don't know.

While effective against charged particles I don't think a magnetic shield
isn't going to help you with gamma rays -- but I don't think the sun emits
many of those.

Worth noting is that I believe the best radiation shields require the
greatest neucleon density -- that means most probably either hydrogen
or better yet deuterium.  So one is going to want to separate them from
any ice that is available and put the habitats underneath liquid H2 lakes.

R.




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 15:13:56 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:13:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
In-Reply-To: <019801c39f5f$3c63f880$b0994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310712160.26596-100000@server.aeiveos.com>



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Damien Broderick wrote:

> But what about a *real* mouse?

Especially if its one of the ones that has been
engineered to glow in the dark.

R.



From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 15:32:35 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:32:35 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
Message-ID: <63340-2200310531153235900@M2W042.mail2web.com>


>>torsdagen den 30 oktober 2003 23.45 wrote Emlyn O'regan:
>>Wow... nice work Anders!

>Thanks!

Fantastic! !



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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 15:34:47 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:34:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike"- Ray Kurzweil 
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F150Ws6Wxm5LEG0000ca1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310721270.26596-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


> Exaclty! My point is to state that you profoundly diagree with Ray's
> timeline predictions because, in your own words, science is radically
> unpredictable.

Scientific "discovery" might be unpredictable -- but engineering
based on known physical laws is less so.  Once one has a few data
points to go on (e.g. Moore's Law, or the progress in computers
understanding human speech, or gradual improvements in software
that does everything from face recognition to driving cars, etc.)
then things start to become somewhat predictable.

> But when one reads Ray's books one gets the feeling that
> future science/technology IS predictable, or at the very least broadly
> predictable.

It depends very much on how many data points one is dealing with. Moore's
Law tends to be very predictable -- signifcant investments are made in
making sure it will happen and where the problems lie and how to solve
them.  Now, the human genome project was much less so say 10-12 years ago.
The general consensus circa 1990 was that the HGP could *never* be
accomplished.  The science for DNA sequencing was well established but
there had to be breakthroughs in the technology.  So a few hundred million
$ were spent funding the research to produce those breakthroughs. Result -
the HGP was finished early and under budget (there is your
unpredictability cropping up).  Though it might well have gone the other
way (as projects at NASA involving putting humans in space seem to do...
:-().

The interesting question about the singularity is whether it requires
a certain number of breakthroughs in engineering -- or science -- that
we cannot easily predict right now -- or whether it will result from
the aggregate set of trends in the world (which it is perhaps equally
hard to grasp as a whole).

R.




From asa at nada.kth.se  Fri Oct 31 15:49:32 2003
From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:49:32 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
In-Reply-To: <63340-2200310531153235900@M2W042.mail2web.com>
References: <63340-2200310531153235900@M2W042.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200310311649.32689.asa@nada.kth.se>

I like being an illustrator; it is a fun complement to my other projects. So 
if anybody needs some images for your projects I might be able to help. 

fredagen den 31 oktober 2003 16.32 wrote natashavita at earthlink.net:
> >>torsdagen den 30 oktober 2003 23.45 wrote Emlyn O'regan:
> >>Wow... nice work Anders!
> >
> >Thanks!
>
> Fantastic! !



From amara at amara.com  Fri Oct 31 14:46:41 2003
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:46:41 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Reporters without Borders: Freedom Index 2003
Message-ID: <p05100305bbc8253f8aaa@[150.146.134.133]>

A updated index is out..


Reporters without Borders: Freedom Index 2003
http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=8247

It is useful to compare with :

Reporters without Borders: Freedom Index 2002
http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4118

The press for the Baltic and Central European countries are rapidly
becoming more free. (Note Latvia, Estonia, Czech Republic). Finland,
Iceland, Norway, the Netherlands are still at the top.

Italy's index keeps going down. [... gee, what a surprise. maybe,
just maybeeeeeeeee, Berlusconi's continual new media laws protecting
his vast media enterprise, and maybe, just maybeeeeeeee, Berlusconi
suing The Economist a second time,  has something to do with this low
index ....]

The US has dropped a whopping 17 points from last year too (now at
number 31).

Amara

=====================================================================
 From Kuro5hin.

But hey, look at the bright side:  GDP growth is hot!  ;-)  <As
Siouxsee and the Banshees' Spin Spin Sugar plays in the
background...>

--

US falls 14 spots in press freedom ranking (MLP)

By jjayson
Thu Oct 30th, 2003 at 12:50:31 PM EST
Freedom

Reporters Without Borders recently released its second world press
freedom ranking. [1] With North Korea and Cuba forming the bottom
two rungs and Finland, Iceland, the Netherlands, and Norway all tied
in the lead, the European countries did considerably better than the
rest of the world, especially the Arab world. While the US, despite
no major domestic changes affecting reporters in the last year, fell
to a 31st place tie with Greece, down from 17th.

The ranking was compiled by asking "journalists, researchers,
jurists and human rights activists to fill out a questionnaire
evaluating respect for press freedom in a particular country" from
September 1, 2002, to September 1, 2003. The study "does not look at
human rights violations in general, just press freedom violations"
and is not a ranking of the quality of the press, just its freedom.



The Arab world was the largest concern. In 2002, 56th ranked Lebanon
was top of all Arab countries in press freedom, but fell to 106th,
and Kuwait, even though dropping from 78th to 102nd, took over the
lead. Israel was placed at 44th, the highest of any Middle East
country.

However, this year, the US and Israel were give two separate
rankings, at home and abroad where Iraq and the Occupied Territories
are also examined. The Occupied Territories under Israel and Iraq
under American control ranked 146th and 135th respectively, far
lower than both the Palestinian Authority, 130th, and Saddam's Iraq,
124th. The report cited the death of reporters during the war and
Israeli abuses as the reasons for such low placement:

The Israeli army's repeated abuses against journalists in the
occupied territories and the US army's responsibility in the death
of several reporters during the war in Iraq constitute unacceptable
behaviour by two nations that never stop stressing their commitment
to freedom of expression.

The 2002 report gave slightly more information on both the US and
Israel:

The poor ranking of the United States (17th) is mainly because of
the number of journalists arrested or imprisoned there. Arrests are
often because they refuse to reveal their sources in court. Also,
since the 11 September attacks, several journalists have been
arrested for crossing security lines at some official buildings.

?

The attitude of Israel (92nd) towards press freedom is ambivalent.
Despite strong pressure on state-owned TV and radio, the government
respects the local media's freedom of expression. However, in the
West Bank and Gaza, Reporters Without Borders has recorded a large
number of violations of the International Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights which guarantees press freedom and which Israel has
signed. Since the start of the Israeli army's incursions into
Palestinian towns and cities in March 2002, very many journalists
have been roughed up, threatened, arrested, banned from moving
around, targeted by gunfire, wounded or injured, had their press
cards withdrawn or been deported.

Europe was consistently ranked in the top fifth. The only two
countries falling out of that bracket, and the only two European
countries placing below the US, were Spain at 42nd and Italy at
53rd.

Full discussion: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/29/172532/53

--

-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"In my opinion, television validates existence." --Calvin


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 15:58:41 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:58:41 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] finally amazon has the Anders cover up
Message-ID: <54360-2200310531155841472@M2W070.mail2web.com>

Anders wrote:

>I like being an illustrator; it is a fun complement to my other projects.
>So if anybody needs some images for your projects I might be able to help.

Yes!

** Transhumanist Arts & Culture needs an illustration/logo for its 2004
exhibition.  Your work, of course, will be inclused in the exhbition, but
we'd love your logo design help!

** ExI could use an illustration for its "Solutions".

** I am speaking with a person in Russia that needs help with their
transhumanist logo.  Are you interested?

Thanks Anders,

Natsha

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From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Oct 31 15:41:31 2003
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:41:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: antique computers
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02E@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <bntvrb$fl0$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Emlyn O'regan <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> That's an excellent idea, Mike; long overdue. Beautiful polished wood cases
> for desktops should have a nice niche amongst the beige-hating tasteful

Not to rain on anybody's parade, but wooden and marble cases have
been around for years.  It's just that most people who spend
extravagant amounts of money on a computer prefer that money to go
into the computing part rather than the case.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From test at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu  Fri Oct 31 17:33:12 2003
From: test at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:33:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <200310311014.h9VAE8M17202@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0310311127420.14370-100000@demedici.ssec.wisc.edu>

> But what about a *real* mouse?

One made nest inside my old IBM PC. We detected it
when our fox terrier started growling at the computer.
Being used as a mouse toilet had a bad effect on the
mother board.



From duggerj1 at charter.net  Fri Oct 31 17:52:24 2003
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (JAY DUGGER)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:52:24 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310656580.26596-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <web-15316433@rems06.cluster1.charter.net>

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:11:45 -0800 (PST)
  "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:

>Why not a simple production plant to crank out either 
>sheet silicon
>or titanium -- plenty of both up there.  Welding titanium 
>is a bit
>tricky but ought to eliminate the loss of gas problem 
>Eugen was
>discussing.  Since you have to separate O2 from the Si/Ti 


Will either of those two vacuum-weld? Plenty of vacuum on 
the Moon.

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj
Sometimes delete serves best.


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 17:57:10 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:57:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] True justice?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310953310.30602-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


I'm not quite sure how to react to this.  Apparently a known sexual
predator exposed himself to a number of Catholic high school girls
in Philadelphia and they decided to chase him down and assault him.

Guess one has to be careful who one offends with ones behavior.

URL:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/31/crime.girls.reut/

R.




From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Oct 31 18:58:31 2003
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:58:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
References: <001101c39f67$61268c70$9865fea9@bjsmain2>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310656580.26596-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <bnubcn$l8c$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Robert J. Bradbury <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Why not a simple production plant to crank out either sheet silicon
> or titanium -- plenty of both up there.  Welding titanium is a bit
> tricky but ought to eliminate the loss of gas problem Eugen was
> discussing.

What's tricky about welding titanium other than that you can't do
it in an Earth-style atmosphere?  (Titanium burns with both oxygen
and nitrogen.)

> Since you have to separate O2 from the Si/Ti anyway,
> it isn't going to be the problem.  Its N2 that is going to be the
> problem.  Now of course one could substitute He3 which there is
> a fair amount of and one wants to mine anyway for its use in fusion
> reactors.  Downsides would be that the astronauts would talk funny
> and He3 is moderately radioactive.

He3 is a stable isotope, check WebElements.  (Maybe you are confusing
it with tritium which decays into He3?)  Helium has a much higher
thermal conductivity than plain air (approx. nitrogen).  You'll
have to ask a deep-sea diver whether this is actually as much a
problem as Michael Crichton makes it out to be in _Sphere_.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Oct 31 19:52:40 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:52:40 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] database of professional plaintiffs
In-Reply-To: <bnubcn$l8c$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <000201c39fe8$8aee06b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


Information wants to be free.  Someone should start
a database of those who make their living suing
people or businesses.  When someone takes a dive
in your yard or office, it would be helpful to be
able to google how many previous suits in which 
they have been the plaintiffs, and how much they
want in order to go away, and what are your chances
of beating them in court.  How would such a database
be organized?  

spike



From megao at sasktel.net  Fri Oct 31 20:05:23 2003
From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:05:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] database of professional plaintiffs
References: <000201c39fe8$8aee06b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <3FA2C082.32A2EB@sasktel.net>

Do an exhaustive search for the term "vexacious litigant" which is what
a serial lawsuit initiator can be labelled by a court.... as a starting
point and see how many names come up?


Spike wrote:

> Information wants to be free.  Someone should start
> a database of those who make their living suing
> people or businesses.  When someone takes a dive
> in your yard or office, it would be helpful to be
> able to google how many previous suits in which
> they have been the plaintiffs, and how much they
> want in order to go away, and what are your chances
> of beating them in court.  How would such a database
> be organized?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From Karen at smigrodzki.org  Fri Oct 31 20:35:29 2003
From: Karen at smigrodzki.org (Karen Rand Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:35:29 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] database of professional plaintiffs
References: <000201c39fe8$8aee06b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<3FA2C082.32A2EB@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <00eb01c39fee$860eb710$6501a8c0@DogHouse>

if you are sued, one way of finding out if you might have been targeted by a
serial plaintiff is by searching for their name as plaintiff in databases
such as Westlaw or LexisNexis (both expensive). You can also search local
case names (case name includes plaintiff and defendant) in local law
libraries (just ask one of the law librarians to help; or  even a student).
The obvious problem is that the plaintiff may try to vary his name, and/or
the locale: lowest level courts (magistrates, eg) aren't found on the pay
databases I mentioned; however, there are search options on those databases
which my school doesn't buy access to for students. Those extra databases
may allow finding more info about a person by soc sec or address which may
lead you to discover other locales/suits/names used.

k


> Do an exhaustive search for the term "vexacious litigant" which is what
> a serial lawsuit initiator can be labelled by a court.... as a starting
> point and see how many names come up?
>
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> > Information wants to be free.  Someone should start
> > a database of those who make their living suing
> > people or businesses.  When someone takes a dive
> > in your yard or office, it would be helpful to be
> > able to google how many previous suits in which
> > they have been the plaintiffs, and how much they
> > want in order to go away, and what are your chances
> > of beating them in court.  How would such a database
> > be organized?
> >
> > spike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From megao at sasktel.net  Fri Oct 31 20:29:50 2003
From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:29:50 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] vexatious litigant lists
Message-ID: <3FA2C63D.64CF0C2C@sasktel.net>

Got the spelling wrong on the first reply ..... not vexacious but
vexatious.

http://www.google.ca/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=vexatious+litigant&spell=1








From kilroy at hush.ai  Fri Oct 31 18:09:52 2003
From: kilroy at hush.ai (Kilroy)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:09:52 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Hal Clement dead
Message-ID: <200310311809.h9VI9qYU079372@mailserver2.hushmail.com>

Hal wasn't one of my favorite authors,
but he was one of my favorite people.
You couldn't find a nicer guy.



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From kilroy at hush.ai  Thu Oct 30 23:29:26 2003
From: kilroy at hush.ai (Kilroy)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:29:26 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Spike" - Raymond Kurzweil
Message-ID: <200310302329.h9UNTQeq054104@mailserver2.hushmail.com>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:10:27 -0800 "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
wrote:
>
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kilroy wrote:
>
>> The health risks of a_steroids have been vastly
>> overstated by the medical establishment.  The
>> resulting "violent tendencies" are in my experience
>> not as dramatic as those you get from drinking coffee,
>> or (for other people) alcohol.
>
>Well, I may be wrong, but what I have read suggest that
>the violent tendencies are real.  Though I would certainly
>agree that alcohol can lead to similar problems -- though
>the causes are quite different.

Some people are more violent when using a-steroids.
Some people are less violent when using a-steroids.
The press has been highly selective in
seeking out negative cases to write about,
out of the millions of users in America.
They have also always lumped all a-steroids together.
Nobody has ever had "roid rage" off of Anav_ar,
Primo_bolan, or Win_strol.  Most of those cases
come from people using Ana_drol, Fina_plix, or Halo_testin.

>> Once the basic risks are assessed and the remaining
>> problems addressed, why not?
>
>But much of your note suggested that it will be difficult
>to address those problems (at least with respect to HGH).

Don't know yet. The risks I talked about are with
injected HGH. HGH production has already been
increased in mice by turning on genes for it
only in skeletal muscle tissue and not in
smooth muscle tissue (like the heart). This
solves some of the problems.

>The most basic risk I see is that problem with people who
>are not well informed about potential risks and simply do
>not understand that "more" is not always "better".

But that takes us back into the whole "protect
people from themselves" argument that gave us
the FDA and social security and prohibition
and other things most of us here don't like.

kilroy was here



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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 20:49:48 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:49:48 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism:  Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
Message-ID: <57050-2200310531204948353@M2W081.mail2web.com>

Recently, I was reviewing some essays on Transhumanism.  I thought about
how ideas come together and who have been the catalytic thinkers of our
transhumanist ideas.

Many essays on Transhumanism have skimmed over critical information about
transhumanism, and plugged in well known literary figures which to claim an
association.  Some of the associations are inescapable, some we favor, and
others we do not.  Yet some associations can be very confusing by and
through the contradictory nature of hum[man].

One such provoking and erudite thinker is Teilhard de Chardin.  As a role
model, and even "hero," for an entire generation of younger priests and
theologians, he believed strongly in God, even when he wrote careful
critiques of traditional science and of traditional religion. I also
suggested his contributions to "Transhumanism" in my book _Create/Recreate:
the 3rd Millennial Culture."


Was Teilhard de Chardin's bottom line a fervid attempt to realize a reunion
of research and religion?  

"Henceforth science recognized itself as a means of extending and
completing in [hu]man a world still incompletely formed. It assumed the
shape and grandeur of a sacred duty. It became charged with futurity. In
the great body, already coming to birth, of a humanity grouped by the act
of discovery, a soul was at last released: a mysticism of discovery."  (de
Chardin)

Or, is what Stephen Jay Gould states a more vivid interpretation of
Teilhard de Chardin, which would allow for some questioning of our own
thinking.

"It is perhaps not surprising that a leading advocate of Darwinism, Stephen
Jay Gould, has gone to work on Teilhard. Writing vehemently and
dogmatically, like the guardian of an established religion, Gould asserts
that Teilhard's whole enterprise is illegitimate: Teilhard's essential
insights are incompatible with science. In addition to that, Gould has made
it his personal mission to expose Teilhard as being guilty of the most
outrageous scientific fraud of modern times." (Charles P. Henderson)

Most transhumanists are spirited toward life and learning, but leave the
soul on the bottom of our shoes.  Indeed a sense of compassion and
understand is often veiled by a strong desire to push forward out of
humanity's womb, but it is deeply rooted in transhumanism nonetheless.  It
this enough in itself, or do we need to leave an open place for religious
views, or are they really a throw back to ingrained defaults?

I don't think we need it.  I think we need more love and understanding,
story-telling, poetry, imagination, laughter, fun and companionship, not
not religious mysticism?

Natasha


Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc


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From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 21:32:42 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:32:42 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
References: <57050-2200310531204948353@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <018301c39ff6$8761a340$a1994a43@texas.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: <natashavita at earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:49 PM

> One such provoking and erudite thinker is Teilhard de Chardin.

I, for one, was moved by his Omega Point notion in the early 1960s, when I
was still a fervent if unorthodox Catholic. I must have been one of the
first people to read THE PHENOMENON OF MAN in English. However...

>  (de Chardin)

[BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]

> "It is perhaps not surprising that a leading advocate of Darwinism,
Stephen
> Jay Gould, has gone to work on Teilhard. Writing vehemently and
> dogmatically, like the guardian of an established religion, Gould asserts
> that Teilhard's whole enterprise is illegitimate: Teilhard's essential
> insights are incompatible with science.

`Guardian of established religion' my foot. Gould, and more impressively
still Sir Peter Medawar, showed why Teilhard's teleological and God-dragged
model of evolution is just plain incompatible with random mutation and
natural selection. It's a form of divine Lamarckism. It *could* have been
true, in some other universe; it might even be true to some extent in a
Tiplerian Omega Point universe. But it doesn't jibe with what science has
learned to date about how evolution works.

> I don't think we need [religious dogma].  I think we need more love and
understanding,
> story-telling, poetry, imagination, laughter, fun and companionship, not
> religious mysticism?

Right on, as we said back then, or a decade later. :)

Damien Broderick



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Oct 31 21:44:23 2003
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:44:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: Back to the Moon (?)
In-Reply-To: <bnubcn$l8c$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310311340260.2069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> What's tricky about welding titanium other than that you can't do
> it in an Earth-style atmosphere?  (Titanium burns with both oxygen
> and nitrogen.)

Well then vacuum welding ought to work fairly well.

One source:
  http://www.welding-advisers.com/Welding-titanium.html

Google has lots more sources (Google is god...)

> He3 is a stable isotope, check WebElements.  (Maybe you are confusing
> it with tritium which decays into He3?)

Christian is right.  I mistakenly was looking at 3H rather than 3He
in The Handbook of Chemistry & Physics.  So scratch the radioactivity
problem.

R.




From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 21:50:00 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:50:00 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
Message-ID: <114780-220031053121500734@M2W071.mail2web.com>


From: Damien Broderick 

From: <natashavita at earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:49 PM

>> One such provoking and erudite thinker is Teilhard de Chardin.

>I, for one, was moved by his Omega Point notion in the early 1960s, when I
>was still a fervent if unorthodox Catholic. I must have been one of the
>first people to read THE PHENOMENON OF MAN in English. However...

>>(de Chardin)

>[BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
>shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]

I was thinking along the line of da Vinci.  Well, not exactly thinking
along the same line, but you know what I mean :-)

>>"It is perhaps not surprising that a leading advocate of Darwinism,
Stephen
>>Jay Gould, has gone to work on Teilhard. Writing vehemently and
>>dogmatically, like the guardian of an established religion, Gould asserts
>>that Teilhard's whole enterprise is illegitimate: Teilhard's essential
>>insights are incompatible with science.

>`Guardian of established religion' my foot. Gould, and more impressively
>still Sir Peter Medawar, showed why Teilhard's teleological and God-dragged
>model of evolution is just plain incompatible with random mutation and
>natural selection. It's a form of divine Lamarckism. It *could* have been
>true, in some other universe; it might even be true to some extent in a
>Tiplerian Omega Point universe. But it doesn't jibe with what science has
>learned to date about how evolution works.

>>I don't think we need [religious dogma].  I think we need more love and
understanding,
>>story-telling, poetry, imagination, laughter, fun and companionship, not
>>religious mysticism[.]

>Right on, as we said back then, or a decade later. :)

If Chardin's "God-dragged" model of evolution is the "bottom line," then we
need to step back a bit and reframe transhumanist thinking:

In that Transhumanism is a term that emerged rather recently in the
cultural "language" and is sometimes demeaned because it often used
loosely. But when used properly, it is a term that can provide valuable
insight into culture. 

Whereas humanism has been used primarily to reflect the potential and good 
conscious of society, transhumanism's strategy is to embrace the forward 
thinking of humanity. Not fully recognizing the ideas and concept of 
transhumanism, many people, including journalistic writer, confuse 
transhumanism with outdated model usage of the term. The outdated models 
applied have been in reference to Teilhard de Chardin and T.S. Elliot. 

Both Teilhard de Chardin and T.S. Elliot were not technologically adept, 
nor were they futurists. Their vision of future humans was highly 
provocative during their lifetimes, but more dependent on either religious 
or mystical inference. 

Transhumanism is not a religious or mystical term. Nor is it a political 
term. It is a term used to express the ideas about evolution in regards 
to the biology and psychology of humans. As such, transhumanism has become 
a movement based on the advancement of the human?s lifespan and 
intellectual and creative abilities. 

I noticed that many transhumanist organizations use Teilhard de Chardin's
name.  Some of it was quoted from my writing, I believe in my explanation
of the history of transhumanism.  I'm annoyed at myself for not being more
careful, but more disengaged from anyone who uses Chardin as a leading
transhumannist thinker and/or the original core of transhumanity.

Natasha




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From gregburch at gregburch.net  Fri Oct 31 21:54:52 2003
From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:54:52 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
In-Reply-To: <018301c39ff6$8761a340$a1994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <PMEELDEBLOLPFEFPEIBDEEELCAAA.gregburch@gregburch.net>

Scientific trivia contest: With what famous scientific hoax was Tielhard assocated?

BTW, I agree that TdC's take on evolutionary theory was wrong, wrong, wrong, but, like Damien, I was always struck by how similar to my own thinking the Omega Point idea was.  He just took it for metaphysical reality, when he should have left it at an aspirational goal.

My blog: http://www.gregburch.net/burchismo.html


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 22:27:02 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:27:02 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
Message-ID: <67290-220031053122272717@M2W035.mail2web.com>


From: Greg Burch 

>Scientific trivia contest: With what famous scientific hoax was Tielhard >
>assocated?

"Piltdown Man Hoax"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do53pi.html

(I googled it.)



>BTW, I agree that TdC's take on evolutionary theory was wrong, wrong,
>wrong, but, like Damien, I was always struck by how similar to my own
>thinking the Omega Point idea was.  He just took it for metaphysical
>reality, when he should have left it at an aspirational goal.

Yes.  I think we need to let the cat out of the bag.:-)

Natasha

My blog: http://www.gregburch.net/burchismo.html
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

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From jcorb at iol.ie  Fri Oct 31 22:44:31 2003
From: jcorb at iol.ie (J Corbally)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:44:31 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20031031224123.027915c0@pop.iol.ie>


>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:33:12 -0600 (CST)
> >From: Bill Hibbard <test at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu>
>Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22
>To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>Message-ID:
><Pine.GSO.4.44.0310311127420.14370-100000 at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > But what about a *real* mouse?
>One made nest inside my old IBM PC. We detected it
>when our fox terrier started growling at the computer.
>Being used as a mouse toilet had a bad effect on the
>mother board.
Reminds me of the old Commodore I saw once in a pigeon shed.  It was hinged 
open using the attached metal bar (the whole top flops back)  Bird nest 
material and mouse droppings everywhere.

Well, it was a Commodore PET....



James...



From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 22:46:10 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:46:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Omega Pointists'  high-spirit, soft-tech
Message-ID: <323910-220031053122461090@M2W056.mail2web.com>

Here's something else I just read:

"'Teilhard & Omega' yields 2300 hits.  I have to take issue with Teilhard
de Chardin's (1888-1955) mind-matter dualism.  At the Omega Point the
transcending human spirit leaves the earth behind, rather like a used-up
cinder.  His spiritual Omega was simply appended to the scientific
cosmology without regard for coherence, and so we are left with this
unfortunate disposal or perhaps recycling problem.  Nonetheless, half an
eschaton is probably better than no eschaton at all.  Let us see how well
the word has gotten out. 

"All too well, it might seem!  It appears that Teilhard's Omega has been
hijacked by the technophiles, not a very difficult feat considering
Teilhard's infatuation (or was it just a flirtation?) with matter and
cosmic evolution.  Dualism always threatens to revert to materialism. 

"The theme of accelerating biological and technological evolution
converging on a singularity of some kind is widely entertained: Frank
Tipler, Ray Kurzweil, Terrance McKenna, transhumanism, etc.  

"Just to give you a flavor of our coming attractions I quote from one of my
favorite singularity sites: 

"We are at far more of a 'urning point'than even the one Capra envisions;
in possession of far more of a 'web of reinforcement' than Baines could
hope for; the morphogenetic-field potential is far higher than Sheldrake
predicts; the groundswell documented by Ferguson is about to become a
tsunami, with a capability to take the planet off hold and close the
'vision gap' in a way that is perhaps more comprehensive than conceived by
Barbara Marx Hubbard.'

"It is Terrance's view that the singularity involves the spawning of the
psychedelic mushrooms who just use our brains to help them build
intergalactic transportation for their own fungal genes, a decidedly comic
twist of fate from Dawkin's selfish gene.  No doubt the fungi have a more
generous complement of DNA than do our own, recently discovered to be,
impoverished chromosomes.  

"Our technotopians have less sense of humor.  These cosmic Spinmeisters
have taken our worst dystopian nightmare of a mechanized future and given
it a sugar, or is that a silicon, coating.  Our computers steal our souls
and take off for the big Omega in the sky.  Quite frankly I would prefer to
have my DNA hijacked by a toadstool, than to have my soul stolen by an
adding machine on steroids.  The former is much more romantic, not to say,
psychedelic.  The mushrooms are more likely to keep us around for company,
and at least we share a carboniferous ancestry."
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dantsmith/next86.htm)

Okay, so the Omega Pointists want their mysticism, and don't want
high-spirit, soft-tech.

Natasha


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From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 22:48:10 2003
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:48:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
References: <114780-220031053121500734@M2W071.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <01ba01c3a001$12a4af60$a1994a43@texas.net>



> >[BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
> >shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]

> I was thinking along the line of da Vinci.  

Teilhard was his *surname*. His given name was Pierre.

Damien Broderick de Melbourne



From jcorb at iol.ie  Fri Oct 31 22:55:34 2003
From: jcorb at iol.ie (J Corbally)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:55:34 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] True justice?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20031031225339.027947c0@pop.iol.ie>


>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:57:10 -0800 (PST)
> >From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
>Subject: [extropy-chat] True justice?
>To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Message-ID:
><Pine.LNX.4.44.0310310953310.30602-100000 at server.aeiveos.com>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>I'm not quite sure how to react to this. Apparently a known sexual
>predator exposed himself to a number of Catholic high school girls
>in Philadelphia and they decided to chase him down and assault him.
>Guess one has to be careful who one offends with ones behavior.
>URL:
>http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/31/crime.girls.reut/
>R.
>
>
>------------------------------

And they charged him with "corrupting the morals of a minor"???

Reminds me of Irish schoolgirls.  Not to be messed with.  I'd bet he wasn't 
expecting that :)




James...





From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 31 22:54:01 2003
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:54:01 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
Message-ID: <39020-220031053122541126@M2W042.mail2web.com>


From: Damien Broderick 

>>>[BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
>>>shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]

>>I was thinking along the line of da Vinci.  

>Teilhard was his *surname*. His given name was Pierre.

>Damien Broderick de Melbourne

I just received a gift of Pierre Cardin luggage.  Think it will take me to
the Omega Point?

Natasha Vita-More de Spiral Galaxy


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From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Oct 31 23:11:11 2003
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:11:11 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
In-Reply-To: <PMEELDEBLOLPFEFPEIBDEEELCAAA.gregburch@gregburch.net>
Message-ID: <000601c3a004$46647d50$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Scientific trivia contest: With what famous scientific hoax 
> was Tielhard assocated?

Piltdown man.  But he didn't do it.  He was fooled
by it.  See S.J. Gould, Hen's Teeth and Horses Toes,
p. 213ff.




From max at maxmore.com  Fri Oct 31 23:33:47 2003
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:33:47 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
In-Reply-To: <39020-220031053122541126@M2W042.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031031173225.0191ab68@mail.earthlink.net>

At 04:54 PM 10/31/2003, Natasha wrote:

>From: Damien Broderick
>
> >>>[BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
> >>>shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]
>
> >>I was thinking along the line of da Vinci.
>
> >Teilhard was his *surname*. His given name was Pierre.
>
> >Damien Broderick de Melbourne
>
>I just received a gift of Pierre Cardin luggage.  Think it will take me to
>the Omega Point?
>
>Natasha Vita-More de Spiral Galaxy

Darling, I will look on Expedia for tickets to the Omega Point. I believe 
it lies somewhere between the Twilight Zone and that country where the 
one-eyed man is king.

Max Duh More



_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________




From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net  Fri Oct 24 22:40:29 2003
From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:40:29 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or Dare
References: <57050-2200310531204948353@M2W081.mail2web.com>
	<018301c39ff6$8761a340$a1994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c39a7f$d4adf440$12ecfea9@kevin>

I read a book titled "The Omega Point" so long ago I don;t even remember the
author.
It often left me wondering if religions weren't created by our post-human
descendents who were capable of manipulating the past. Granted, time would
have to be linear which I don't believe to be the case. Still, the idea that
religion was created to keep us from reaching singularity faster than we are
capable of handling socially is a bit alluring. Maybe it could make for some
decent fiction.

I am close to finishing "The Spike" and I am searching for my next book to
purchase. I have a long way to go before I feel I am up to speed with many
of the conversations on this list. Should I read "The Age of Spiritual
Machines" or "THE PHENOMENON OF MAN " next? Or should I read something else
entirely?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Damien Broderick" <thespike at earthlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: Teilhard de Chardin - Truth or
Dare


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <natashavita at earthlink.net>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 2:49 PM
>
> > One such provoking and erudite thinker is Teilhard de Chardin.
>
> I, for one, was moved by his Omega Point notion in the early 1960s, when I
> was still a fervent if unorthodox Catholic. I must have been one of the
> first people to read THE PHENOMENON OF MAN in English. However...
>
> >  (de Chardin)
>
> [BTW, that's NOT his name, as the other citations show. It's properly
> shortened to Teilhard, not to de Chardin or Chardin.]
>
> > "It is perhaps not surprising that a leading advocate of Darwinism,
> Stephen
> > Jay Gould, has gone to work on Teilhard. Writing vehemently and
> > dogmatically, like the guardian of an established religion, Gould
asserts
> > that Teilhard's whole enterprise is illegitimate: Teilhard's essential
> > insights are incompatible with science.
>
> `Guardian of established religion' my foot. Gould, and more impressively
> still Sir Peter Medawar, showed why Teilhard's teleological and
God-dragged
> model of evolution is just plain incompatible with random mutation and
> natural selection. It's a form of divine Lamarckism. It *could* have been
> true, in some other universe; it might even be true to some extent in a
> Tiplerian Omega Point universe. But it doesn't jibe with what science has
> learned to date about how evolution works.
>
> > I don't think we need [religious dogma].  I think we need more love and
> understanding,
> > story-telling, poetry, imagination, laughter, fun and companionship, not
> > religious mysticism?
>
> Right on, as we said back then, or a decade later. :)
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net  Fri Oct 24 22:50:17 2003
From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:50:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] antique computers
References: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217BBFE02E@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <00b201c39a81$33355de0$12ecfea9@kevin>

Oh. Here's one on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3438677641&category=3669

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emlyn O'regan" <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] antique computers


> That's an excellent idea, Mike; long overdue. Beautiful polished wood
cases
> for desktops should have a nice niche amongst the beige-hating tasteful
> (count me in :-)
>
> Have you thought about a wooden keyboard? Finicky, but I would think it
was
> doable. Also, maybe a wooden mouse; with both of these you should be able
to
> replace the plastic casing & keys I would think.
>
> Emlyn
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Lorrey [mailto:mlorrey at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 7:19 AM
> > To: ExI chat list
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] antique computers
> >
> >
> > I am working on several designs for hardwood computer cases, to make
> > the PC box more aesthetically acceptable for executive desktops, as
> > well as for those seeking an organic look vs the cheap appliance look.
> >
> > Anyone for a woody?
> >
> > --- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Altho no one will argue that a model T Ford works
> > > as well as a modern car by any measure imaginable,
> > > it is considered cool to own and drive one.  Same
> > > with many items: antiques are chic.  How about
> > > computers?  Are there any antique computer users
> > > groups or clubs?  Rallies?  Competitions?
> > >
> > > spike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Mike Lorrey
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> >                                                     - Gen. John Stark
> > Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> > Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
> > Pro-tech freedom discussion:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>