mlorrey at yahoo.com
Thu Feb 12 17:29:23 UTC 2004
--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Intelligence and interpreting symbols do not mean that an animal is
> of language. Pavlov showed that by ringing a bell, you can make a dog
> salivate. This "symbol" could just as easily be a poster that says
> instead of a bell that rings. This does not mean the dog can read.
> They certainly can;t pass that knowledge down to their offspring
Pavlovian training requires repetition and reward, and dogs with
pavlovian training do not respond outside the strict cues. This is not
the behavior of this dog. She understands communications which are new
and situational. She even understands context, for example, no matter
what I ask her to do, when she chooses to ignore the command, she will
respond to "what did I just say?" with the proper response to the
She is also creative. If you hold up a dog biscuit, saying nothing, she
will go through variating sequences of sit, down, roll over, turn
around, back up, dance (on two feet), if she decides she wants that
She will retrieve specific items (but only if she feels like it) which
you name. She also will retreive a new item, correctly guessing that
the new name I ask her to retrieve is the identifier of the new object,
even though I have not associated the name with the object previously.
She also does tool use. She can open doors by turning door handles with
her paws. She uses rope to play tug of war, intentionally, with another
dog, not as a contest of posession.
She certainly is not human level intelligent. That isn't what I am
saying. I am saying that she is at a level that is primed for human or
advanced primate level intelligence if she, or her offspring, are given
genes for a language center.
> Likewise, humans with damage to The speech and comprehension areas of
> the brain can lose all ability to use language. If language is lost,
> so are all of our thoughts. All we have left is pictures which these
> people can still
> recognize and react to. Have these people lost their consciousness?
> Is consciousness the same as language?
Do deafmutes lose their ability with sign language or braille?
> We have a lot to learn in this area. Heck, we have a lot to learn in
> areas! It's all so fascinating! I hope I make it to the singularity
> just so
> I can spend my time learning more!
> Here's an interesting website on the topic of language in animals:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Animals
> > --- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:
> > >
> > > > Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs
> > > cats, not
> > > > even in sheepdogs.
> > >
> > > Ca-ca. Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the
> > > --
> > > I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for
> > > intelligence.
> > Yes. There is a show on Animal Planet called, I think, Dog Star or
> > something like that. Its a dog talent show. One dog, Heelboot, put
> on a
> > show of langauge comprehension that is quite amazing.
> > >
> > > > Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into
> > > existence some
> > > > time ago.
> > >
> > > Given the above I would argue that "intelligent" cats and dogs do
> > > exist.
> > I would say the only real restraint on their further development of
> > intelligence is the lack of speech capability, which is a genetic
> > and not a mind thing.
> > My german shorthair is highly intelligent, recognises whole
> > as well as context. She communicates as she can with her own sign
> > language. The only reason she isn't a trick dog is that she is
> > willfull and self aware. She'll only do a trick if she wants to.
> > even lies. If you offer a biscuit and tell her to roll over, if she
> > doesn't like the surface, she'll just spin around in a circle and
> > like she did the work. She thinks she's a person, and will sit on
> > furniture like a person, leaning back on the backrest.
> > Dogs likely won't naturally evolve language only because without
> > they have no need of a more complex language to deal with
> > =====
> > Mike Lorrey
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> > - Gen. John Stark
> > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> > - Mike Lorrey
> > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
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"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
- Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
- Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
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