From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Jul 1 02:44:10 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:44:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] CULTURE: Manifesto at Saturn! Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040630193358.03260120@mail.earthlink.net> Greetings World/Space H> Enthusiasts ! The Manifesto "Transhumanist Arts Statement" is reaching Saturn! "In October of 1997, the Manifesto was sent into space on board the Cassini Huygens spacecraft. It is the first writings of transhumanity to leave the earth and travel through the Asteroid Belt to Saturn. By this, the meme "We are transhumans . . ." has spread far beyond Earth, out into the Solar System." http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ TRANSHUMANIST ARTS STATEMENT A Manifesto for Transhumans - We are transhumans our art integrates the most eminent progression of creativity and sensibility merged by discovery. Transhumanist Arts represent the aesthetic and creative culture of transhumanity. Transhumanist Artists are developing new and varied modes of art. Our aesthetics and expressions are merging with science and technology in designing increased sensory experiences. Transhumans want to improve and extend life. We are designing the technologies to improve and extend life. Emotions are integral to our senses and understanding. We are designing the technologies to enhance our senses and understanding. The transhumanist ecology and freedom exercises self-awareness and self-responsibility. If our art represents who we are, then let us choose to be transhumanist not only in our bodies, but also in our values. Transhumanist Artists embrace the creative innovations of transhumanity. We are ardent activists in pursuing infinite transformation, overcoming death and exploring the universe. Transhumans want to improve and extend life. We are designing the technologies to improve and extend life. Emotions are integral to our senses and understanding. We are designing the technologies to enhance our senses and understanding. As Transhumanist Arts come into focus As more artists join our efforts As more designs are produced As more music is composed As more stories are written As the tools and ideas of our art continue to evolve, So too shall we. Natasha Vita-More Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 01:44:52 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:44:52 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004301c45f0d$0112a830$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Michael Howell > > >Are there any transhumanists in this group from Arkansas? > > Yeah, I live in Arkansas. We're not all uncultured rednecks. Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck transhumanist. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 01:53:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:53:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <004301c45f0d$0112a830$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > > >Are there any transhumanists in this group from Arkansas? > > > > Yeah, I live in Arkansas. We're not all uncultured rednecks. > > Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck > transhumanist. But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? What kinds of things would they do and say? spike (This aughta be good) {8^D From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jul 1 10:17:26 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:17:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <004301c45f0d$0112a830$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <004301c45f0d$0112a830$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040701101726.GM12847@leitl.org> On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 06:44:52PM -0700, Spike wrote: > > Yeah, I live in Arkansas. We're not all uncultured rednecks. > > Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck > transhumanist. What of hyperwhiskey-jar swiggin' cyberbillies, though? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sentience at pobox.com Thu Jul 1 10:34:36 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:34:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> Spike wrote: > > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > What kinds of things would they do and say? > > spike > > (This aughta be good) {8^D You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. 2) You pronounce "Jupiter brain" as "Yoo-pter brain". -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Jul 1 12:40:39 2004 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:40:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Eliezer > Yudkowsky > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:35 AM > > Spike wrote: > > > > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > > What kinds of things would they do and say? > > > > spike > > > > (This aughta be good) {8^D > > You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: > > 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. I guess that would be me: http://www.saturnrestoration.org/ GB http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Jul 1 13:03:15 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:03:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <04Jul1.090316-0400_edt.435496-10043+48704@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Spike writes: > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > What kinds of things would they do and say? Come and listen to a log file about a bot named Jed A poor windows driver, barely kept his i/o read, Then one day he was bootin' up no good, And down through the 'net came a cyber Robin Hood. Hacker that is, with upgrades, memory. Well the first thing you know ol' Jed's extrordinaire, Bin-folk said Jed load away from there, Said Residential is the place you ought to be, So they loaded up the bus and moved to Memory. Cache, that is. Resource pools, java jars. The Redneck Transhumanists! Well now its time to say shutdown to Jed and all his bin. And they would like to rank you folks fer kindly loggin in. You're all rerouted back again to this locality To have a heapin helpin of their interoperability Virtually, that is. Reset a spell, Shake your spam off. Y'all reload now, y'ack?. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 15:02:16 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:02:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators Message-ID: <263350-220047411521676@M2W071.mail2web.com> Greetings to everyone - With the most recent shake-up, we are looking for more list moderators. Having six moderators has been helpful, but not all these moderators have been able to read all list posts for various reasons. Please note that I do not think it is necessary to read each and every post, as this would be a bit over the top. However, it is essential that list members communicate with the moderators. The most recent example of how list members could have communicated directly with the moderators was the recent thread that the majority of list members thought was despicable and deplorable. While there was not an ad hominem attack within this thread (to my knowledge and if I am wrong, please correct me), the "nature" and "breath" of the thread and was in conflict to the goals of Extropy Institute, the philosophy of Extropy, and the ideals of Transhumanism. I believe that in circumstances such as this, when the contents of a thread suggests immoral acts, that it is essential to intervene and stop the thread by telling posters to take it off the list. Rather than having our list a private list, which is an option being discussed by the Board and list moderators, I'd like to make sure that this is the best route to take. A private list, for members only, may not be a bad thing. But, then again, it may be and I do not want to make that decision without the full knowledge of list members and taking the time to listen to everyone's views. Until a decision is made, I'd like to welcome you all to volunteer yourselves, or nominate someone you think is fair-minded to participate with other moderators in making sure that our list runs smoothly and that issues are handled with speed and effectiveness. Please send me your names privately and I will provide them to our current list moderators. Thanks. My best to you all, Natasha Natasha Vita-More President, Extropy Institute -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 15:11:00 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:11:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <04Jul1.090316-0400_edt.435496-10043+48704@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <009801c45f7d$9ebb4400$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Harvey Newstrom ... > > Come and listen to a log file about a bot named Jed > A poor windows driver, barely kept his i/o read... > Harvey Newstrom Waaaaahahahahahahahaaaaa! Harvey this is hilarious, thanks! s From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 15:16:02 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:16:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009901c45f7e$52839690$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > > > > You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: > > > > 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. If you ever get to Titusville Florida, take a ride on US1 right along the Indian River. You will see an old Saturn 1B up on blocks in front of the local high school. Perhaps Greg can salvage parts from it to restore his S5. spike From amara at amara.com Thu Jul 1 16:51:49 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Raw Saturn ring images ready Message-ID: The raw ring images from the beginning of Cassini's orbit tour are available now: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/latest/index.cfm Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "There's only one thing more beautiful than a beautiful dream, and that's a beautiful reality." --Ashleigh Brilliant From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 16:07:01 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:07:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists Message-ID: <164400-22004741167177@M2W069.mail2web.com> From: Greg Burch Eli wrote: >> You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: >> >> 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. >I guess that would be me: >http://www.saturnrestoration.org/ Hahah! Hey - Jeff Foxworthy is one of my favorite belly-laugh, stand-up commedians. http://www.jefffoxworthy.com/ N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 17:17:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Raw Saturn ring images ready In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701171729.17501.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > The raw ring images from the beginning of Cassini's orbit tour > are available now: > > http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/latest/index.cfm > This image: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/rings/images/SOI9.jpg&type=image is extremely curious. The spiralling waves appear to be the dissolution of spokes, or is this an effect of frame dragging? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 17:39:33 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040701173933.20643.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Spike wrote: > > > > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > > What kinds of things would they do and say? > > > > spike > > > > (This aughta be good) {8^D > > You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: > > 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. > > 2) You pronounce "Jupiter brain" as "Yoo-pter brain". As one certified redneck transhumanist, I kin say we'd pronounce it "Jewptah brins", though the Saturn V may be accurate, its only for the more landed and wealthy redneck transhumanists. Fer us more poh what traish redneck transhumanists, it takes a village to get even a minor missile up in your town: http://www.nhliving.com/towns/warren/index.shtml A redneck transhumanist would certainly keep ma and pa frozen in the back shed, the efforts of Trygve Bauge being an example, now celebrated in "Frozen Dead Guy Days" in a small town in Colorado. A redneck transhumanist would certainly maintain a rather poorly structured website: http://www.mytrailerpark.com/ And operate an internet business: http://www.tshirthell.com/ We also count Seymour Cray, father of the supercomputer, among our kind: http://www.hoise.com/primeur/96/pr-96-oct/CL-PR-10-96-3.html Indeed, this evidence lends credence to the claim that transhumanism would not exist if not for rednecks. Here are some other redneck transhumanist indicia: If your e-mail address ends in ".over.yonder.com" If you connect to the World Wide Web via a "Down Home Page" If the bumper sticker on your truck says "My other computer is a laptop" If your laptop has a sticker that says "Protected by Smith and Wesson" If you've ever doubled the value of your truck by installing a cellular phone. If your baseball cap read "DEC" instead of "CAT" If your computer is worth more than all your cars combined If your wife said "either she or the computer had to go", and you still don't miss her If you've ever used a CD-ROM as a coaster to set your beer on If you ever refer to your computer as "Ole Bessy" If your screen saver is a bitmap image of your favorite truck, tractor, or farm animal If you start all your e-mails with the words "Howdy y'all" http://www.psc.edu/~deerfiel/Jokes/high-tech_redneck.html ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 17:46:40 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:46:40 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> Message-ID: If you have a freezer full of deceased hound dogs, you might be a transhumanist redneck. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eliezer Yudkowsky" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:34 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists > Spike wrote: > > > > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > > What kinds of things would they do and say? > > > > spike > > > > (This aughta be good) {8^D > > You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: > > 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. > > 2) You pronounce "Jupiter brain" as "Yoo-pter brain". > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From amara at amara.com Thu Jul 1 18:58:31 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:58:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Raw Saturn ring images ready Message-ID: Mike Lorrey: >This image: >http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/rings/images/SOI9.jpg&type=image >is extremely curious. The spiralling waves appear to be the >dissolution of spokes, No, spokes are probably dust electromagnetically lifted off of the rings (a process called 'dust levitation'). >or is this an effect of frame dragging? I could be wrong since I don't know the sequencing of the ring images, but that image looks like a high resolution Encke Gap image with the wavy edges gravitationally affected by Pan. Pan, the moonlet, was discovered in that gap in old Voyager data by Mark Showalter in 1990. See: http://ringmaster.arc.nasa.gov/saturn/vgr2_pps/ppssaturn37.html http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~apod/solarsys/eng/pan.htm Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Somewhere something incredible is waiting to be known." -- Isaac Asimov From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 18:02:46 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <009801c45f7d$9ebb4400$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040701180246.38444.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> I'd suggest it be included in the transhumanist humor page... --- Spike wrote: > > > > > Harvey Newstrom > ... > > > > Come and listen to a log file about a bot named Jed > > A poor windows driver, barely kept his i/o read... > > Harvey Newstrom > > > > Waaaaahahahahahahahaaaaa! Harvey this is hilarious, thanks! s > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sentdev at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 18:55:36 2004 From: sentdev at hotmail.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:55:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wanted: Information Manager for Cutting-edge Brain Interface Lab Message-ID: I'm posting this on behalf of Peter Pasarro. ============================ WANTED: Information Manager for Cutting-edge Brain Interface Lab We wish to fill a full-time IM position ASAP for an enthusiastic, curious, intelligent person to create and maintain information systems for a research laboratory of ~15 researchers within the Laboratory for NeuroEngineering at the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta. ?The lab of Dr. Steve M. Potter conducts basic research on learning and memory using brain cells grown in culture dishes that are interfaced to computers. ?We are part of the Coulter Department of Biomedical Engineering, the Center for Behavioral Neuroscience, the Cognitive Science Program at Georgia Tech, and the Neuroscience Graduate program at Emory University. ?(See links below) Examples of relevant information systems include: Electronic laboratory notebooks, web-based data sharing, reference material, databases of lab supplies and equipment, methods and training systems, handheld knowledge bases, appointment scheduling, travel and expenses, and videoconferencing systems. The ideal candidate is willing to get intellectually involved in the Potter Group's research, to the extent necessary to be very familiar with the information management needs of every lab member. ?The IM will pro-actively create or improve systems to solve information management problems before they arise. ?The position will provide an exciting and diverse set of activities, and the IM must work well with people and be able to multi-task. Excellent written and spoken English are required. ?The more prior experience with computers and information systems you have, the better. ?We use Linux, Mac OSX, and Windows operating systems, so familiarity with all three is a plus. Pay will be based on experience, but below that available in the commercial sector; on the plus side is the much more informal and enjoyable academic laboratory environment, and the potential to play a crucial role in cutting-edge research to advance brain science. Potter Group web page: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/groups/potter/index.html Articles about our research in the popular press: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/groups/potter/press.html Neurolab web page: http://neuro.gatech.edu/ Georgia Tech web page: http://www.gatech.edu/ Department of Biomedical Engineering web page: http://www.bme.gatech.edu/ Emory University Neuroscience Program: http://www.emory.edu/NEUROSCIENCE/ TO APPLY, PLEASE SEND to Prof. Steve Potter : 1. A cover letter explaining why you are interested in this position and highlighting the qualities mentioned above, 2. A resume or CV, and 3. The names, positions, and _phone_numbers_ of three people who can recommend you. _________________________________________________________________ http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From samantha at objectent.com Fri Jul 2 00:47:49 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:47:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <04Jul1.090316-0400_edt.435496-10043+48704@ams.ftl.affinity.com> References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <04Jul1.090316-0400_edt.435496-10043+48704@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <7146E9A0-CBC1-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> WONDERFUL!!! On Jul 1, 2004, at 6:03 AM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Spike writes: >> But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? >> What kinds of things would they do and say? > > Come and listen to a log file about a bot named Jed > A poor windows driver, barely kept his i/o read, > Then one day he was bootin' up no good, > And down through the 'net came a cyber Robin Hood. > Hacker that is, with upgrades, memory. > Well the first thing you know ol' Jed's extrordinaire, > Bin-folk said Jed load away from there, > Said Residential is the place you ought to be, > So they loaded up the bus and moved to Memory. > Cache, that is. > Resource pools, java jars. > The Redneck Transhumanists! > Well now its time to say shutdown to Jed and all his bin. > And they would like to rank you folks fer kindly loggin in. > You're all rerouted back again to this locality > To have a heapin helpin of their interoperability > Virtually, that is. Reset a spell, Shake your spam off. > Y'all reload now, y'ack?. > -- > Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Fri Jul 2 00:52:27 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:52:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: <263350-220047411521676@M2W071.mail2web.com> References: <263350-220047411521676@M2W071.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <16D6612F-CBC2-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:02 AM, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > Rather than having our list a private list, which is an option being > discussed by the Board and list moderators, I'd like to make sure that > this > is the best route to take. > > A private list, for members only, may not be a bad thing. But, then > again, > it may be and I do not want to make that decision without the full > knowledge of list members and taking the time to listen to everyone's > views. > > Why would having it a private list help anything? I don't see it being better myself. But I am probably missing something. -s From samantha at objectent.com Fri Jul 2 00:41:35 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:41:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <922E9385-CBC0-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Why we'uns have Aunt Mabel under cryo in our modified meat locker out'n back. Brother Jed passed away untimely like a'fore we could get more freezer space a' hand. So we operated on a hound and hacked the hound's blood supply to his brain once we scooped that out. New freezer is coming from town and then he'll have his'n. The 56 Chevy out front has 40 souped up 3 Ghz motherboards 'n it all cooled from the radiator. Did have a haf hog, haf cow we g-neered up but the sorry thing was always eatin stuff that made the milk taste fearsome awful. -s On Jun 30, 2004, at 6:53 PM, Spike wrote: > >>>> Are there any transhumanists in this group from Arkansas? >>> >>> Yeah, I live in Arkansas. We're not all uncultured rednecks. >> >> Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck >> transhumanist. > > > But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? > What kinds of things would they do and say? > > spike > > > (This aughta be good) {8^D > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 02:08:15 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:08:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Raw Saturn ring images ready In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01c45fd9$70073900$6401a8c0@SHELLY> WOW how about that Lockheeeed Martin built Cassini! {8-] spike > Amara Graps > > The raw ring images from the beginning of Cassini's orbit tour > are available now: > http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/latest/index.cfm Amara From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 02:16:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:16:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <164400-22004741167177@M2W069.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <001e01c45fda$91d8a4a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > natashavita at earthlink.net Hahah! Hey - Jeff Foxworthy is one of my favorite belly-laugh, stand-up commedians. http://www.jefffoxworthy.com/ N Isn't Foxworthy a total meltdown? I just about wet my diapers every time he gets up there. The thread started with someone commenting about uncultured rednecks. This is a contradiction in terms of course, for redneck is a culture. We need to collect our best you-might-be-a-redneck-transhumanist jokes. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 02:39:01 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:39:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Raw Saturn ring images ready In-Reply-To: <20040701171729.17501.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c45fdd$bc24b570$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey is extremely curious. The spiralling waves appear to be the dissolution of spokes, or is this an effect of frame dragging? ===== Mike Lorrey No. Inertial frame dragging is an effect that is so one-part-per-jillion that it is extremely difficult to measure. Good old Newton and an expert in dust dynamics are all you need to explain these rings, which demonstrates how wonderful this universe is. spike From megao at sasktel.net Fri Jul 2 03:33:55 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:33:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <001e01c45fda$91d8a4a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40E4D7A3.420D0978@sasktel.net> When you say Redneck Transhumanist, I look in the mirror and say "oh shit you found me out". I use outdated computer systems and brag that its an advantage because some viruses are not targeted to work old systems. To avoid viruses hijacking my e-mailing list, I don't have one. Instead I send emails to myself with the addresses and archive them in their own separate inbox. Morris Spike wrote: > > natashavita at earthlink.net > > Hahah! > > Hey - Jeff Foxworthy is one of my favorite belly-laugh, stand-up > commedians. > > http://www.jefffoxworthy.com/ > > N > > Isn't Foxworthy a total meltdown? I just about wet my diapers > every time he gets up there. The thread started with someone > commenting about uncultured rednecks. This is a contradiction > in terms of course, for redneck is a culture. > > We need to collect our best you-might-be-a-redneck-transhumanist > jokes. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 05:49:42 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:49:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E4D7A3.420D0978@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. > I use outdated computer systems and brag that its an advantage because > some viruses are not targeted to work old systems... > > Morris Is this true? If so, you have stumbled upon a most wonderful business opportunity. Since email uses soooo very little CPU, one could produce machines that are designed to do nothing but email, using some ancient primitive savage processor, such as a 386 or a quadra. Perhaps there are chip fabs still around to make old processors? Many of us could dedicate an old machine to email, then use our other machines for compuationally intensive apps. I still have a Mac quadra running in the office, for some specialty applications that run only on that machine. Recall that for pulling a boat or trailer, something that one does only on rare occasions, a mid-70s vintage station wagon is still about your best choice, considering overall cost. I don't see why old tech processors wouldn't be analogous for the email, the application that is still the most common use of computational machinery. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 06:23:51 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:23:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: <263350-220047411521676@M2W071.mail2web.com> References: <263350-220047411521676@M2W071.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520407012323959c9a8@mail.gmail.com> Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop (scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement depending on the score. On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:02:16 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Until a decision is made, I'd like to welcome you all to volunteer > yourselves, or nominate someone you think is fair-minded to participate > with other moderators in making sure that our list runs smoothly and that > issues are handled with speed and effectiveness. From scerir at libero.it Fri Jul 2 06:26:05 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:26:05 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Green, or Dyson, or Feferman ... References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00b001c45ffd$74ef7030$66bc1b97@administxl09yj> Interesting duels http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17094 http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17249 From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 06:43:23 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:43:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:49:42 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. > > > I use outdated computer systems and brag that its an advantage because > > some viruses are not targeted to work old systems... > > > > Morris > > Is this true? If so, you have stumbled upon a most > wonderful business opportunity. Since email uses soooo > very little CPU, one could produce machines that are > designed to do nothing but email, using some ancient > primitive savage processor, such as a 386 or a > quadra. Perhaps there are chip fabs still around > to make old processors? Many of us could dedicate > an old machine to email, then use our other machines > for compuationally intensive apps. I still have a > Mac quadra running in the office, for some specialty > applications that run only on that machine. > Yes, it's true. Many new viruses and worms only work on the Windows XP technology, leaving Win98 machines alone. After everyone moves to gmail, you just need a web browser to read your email. Even a 90MHz Pentium can do this in Win98. The best use for an old 486 pc is as a physical firewall between your main pc / home network and the internet. All the nasties get stuck in the old 486. BillK From amara at amara.com Fri Jul 2 09:00:03 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:00:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Raw Saturn ring images ready Message-ID: Again, regarding this image... >Mike Lorrey: >>This image: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/rings/images/SOI9.jpg&type=image >>is extremely curious. The spiralling waves appear to be the >>dissolution of spokes, [...] >>or is this an effect of frame dragging I said: >I could be wrong since I don't know the sequencing of >the ring images, but that image looks like a high resolution >Encke Gap image with the wavy edges gravitationally affected >by Pan. >Pan, the moonlet, was discovered in that gap in old Voyager >data by Mark Showalter in 1990. See: >http://ringmaster.arc.nasa.gov/saturn/vgr2_pps/ppssaturn37.html >http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~apod/solarsys/eng/pan.htm Yes, checking.. it is the Encke Gap... I was so calm and sure about what it could be last night, since the images are not labelled in the press release, but now that image has sunk into my brain. I must say : WOW !! THIS IMAGE IS ** AMAZING ** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am accustomed to seeing the Encke Gap in images only a few pixels wide (from Voyager mostly), and now I'm in awe. I'll bet Mark Showalter is bouncing off the ceiling with that image. ( and this is only the *beginning* of the orbit tour !) Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Somewhere something incredible is waiting to be known." -- Isaac Asimov From evmick at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 15:00:16 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:00:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> References: <005301c45f0e$308dd980$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <40E3E8BC.1050103@pobox.com> Message-ID: <40E42700.6020703@earthlink.net> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Spike wrote: > >> >> But what if there were uncultured redneck transhumanists? >> What kinds of things would they do and say? >> >> spike >> >> (This aughta be good) {8^D > > > You Might Be A Transhumanist Redneck If: > > 1) You've got an old Saturn V up on blocks in your front lawn. > > 2) You pronounce "Jupiter brain" as "Yoo-pter brain". > RedNeck Transhuman? Holding up hand......(me...me) EvMick From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 15:22:39 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:22:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators Message-ID: <271330-22004752152239359@M2W097.mail2web.com> ----------------- >Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop >(scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts >with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement >depending on the score. Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this pressure posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for fear they wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist posting if they felt they were being judged. Thoughts? thanks! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 15:27:59 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:27:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists Message-ID: <44180-22004752152759359@M2W037.mail2web.com> From: Spike >>Hahah! >>Hey - Jeff Foxworthy is one of my favorite belly-laugh, stand-up >>commedians. >>http://www.jefffoxworthy.com/ >Isn't Foxworthy a total meltdown? I just about wet my diapers >every time he gets up there. The thread started with someone >commenting about uncultured rednecks. This is a contradiction >in terms of course, for redneck is a culture. >We need to collect our best you-might-be-a-redneck-transhumanist >jokes. Yes! We could also do: "You know you are a newbiew transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are a reluctant transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are a Marxist transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are .... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 15:28:11 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:28:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists Message-ID: <250600-22004752152811592@M2W081.mail2web.com> From: Spike >>Hahah! >>Hey - Jeff Foxworthy is one of my favorite belly-laugh, stand-up >>commedians. >>http://www.jefffoxworthy.com/ >Isn't Foxworthy a total meltdown? I just about wet my diapers >every time he gets up there. The thread started with someone >commenting about uncultured rednecks. This is a contradiction >in terms of course, for redneck is a culture. >We need to collect our best you-might-be-a-redneck-transhumanist >jokes. Yes! We could also do: "You know you are a newbiew transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are a reluctant transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are a Marxist transhumanist if you ..." "You know you are .... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 15:30:50 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:30:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: <271330-22004752152239359@M2W097.mail2web.com> References: <271330-22004752152239359@M2W097.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52040702083014af7636@mail.gmail.com> I think a system based on peer pressure that incentives posters to write good and relevant articles would be a positive feature. I think newcomers would limit themselves to posting comments to existing threads untli they become familiar with the list dynamics. Look at sciscoop.com and of course kuro5hin.org for examples of scoop. G. On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:22:39 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > ----------------- > > > >Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop > >(scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts > >with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement > >depending on the score. > > Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this pressure > posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for fear they > wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist posting if they felt > they were being judged. > > Thoughts? > > thanks! > > Natasha From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 15:35:55 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:35:55 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators Message-ID: <7120-22004752153555345@M2W097.mail2web.com> From: Samantha Atkins >>A private list, for members only, may not be a bad thing. But, then >> again, >> it may be and I do not want to make that decision without the full >> knowledge of list members and taking the time to listen to everyone's >> views. >Why would having it a private list help anything? I don't see it >being better myself. But I am probably missing something. There are several reasons. Most importantly, recieving threats or libelous statements from posters to ExI and our president and/or Board and advisors is not in keeping with how ExI wants to run an e-mail list. It is damaging to the institute, the principles and the members. thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jul 2 15:39:38 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:39:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <250600-22004752152811592@M2W081.mail2web.com> References: <250600-22004752152811592@M2W081.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <40E581BA.5090808@pobox.com> natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > We could also do: > > "You know you are a newbie transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are a reluctant transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are a Marxist transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are .... What's a reluctant transhumanist? Is it anything like a reluctant virgin? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 15:59:08 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:59:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators References: <271330-22004752152239359@M2W097.mail2web.com> Message-ID: What about the reverse where everything is published unless a certain number of negative responses are received? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators > ----------------- > > > >Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop > >(scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts > >with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement > >depending on the score. > > Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this pressure > posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for fear they > wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist posting if they felt > they were being judged. > > Thoughts? > > thanks! > > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sentdev at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 16:05:41 2004 From: sentdev at hotmail.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:05:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Volunteers Needed for TransVision Message-ID: Greetings, For those of you coming to Toronto for TransVision '04 in August, if you would like to volunteer some of your time to help with odd jobs, tasks, and assignments during the conference, please contact me: george at betterhumans.com Best, George _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 2 16:21:46 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702162146.77158.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > What about the reverse where everything is published > unless a certain number > of negative responses are received? One would need to put a time limit on this - probably no more than an hour at the extreme, preferably much less - to allow for timely debate. It would act as a kill switch, to allow the moderators to halt flame wars and the like in their tracks. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. > Wouldn't this pressure > > posters pressured to be erudite, funny or > informative, for fear they > > wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might > resist posting if they felt > > they were being judged. More importantly, the sheer number of posts might overwhelm moderators, such that many otherwise-worthy posts would fall through the cracks; affected members would only see that their posts aren't getting through. And it would only allow posts to go through when the moderators happen to be online. (We don't have moderators on duty 24/7, right?) From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 2 16:25:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E581BA.5090808@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040702162508.47061.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > What's a reluctant transhumanist? Is it anything > like a reluctant virgin? Not quite. Most definitions of "virgin" are binary: you either are or aren't. A reluctant virgin might yearn to not be a virgin, or be one more through lack of effort to not be than desire to be. A reluctant transhumanist would be closer to the latter: accepting transhumanist principles, but less than wholeheartedly. From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 2 16:39:49 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:39:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> BillK wrote: >On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:49:42 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >> >> >>>Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. >>> >>> >>>I use outdated computer systems and brag that its an advantage because >>>some viruses are not targeted to work old systems... >>> >>>Morris >>> >>> >>Is this true? If so, you have stumbled upon a most >>wonderful business opportunity. Since email uses soooo >>very little CPU, one could produce machines that are >>designed to do nothing but email, using some ancient >>primitive savage processor, such as a 386 or a >>quadra. Perhaps there are chip fabs still around >>to make old processors? Many of us could dedicate >>an old machine to email, then use our other machines >>for compuationally intensive apps. I still have a >>Mac quadra running in the office, for some specialty >>applications that run only on that machine. >> >> >> > >Yes, it's true. Many new viruses and worms only work on the Windows XP >technology, leaving Win98 machines alone. > There's a free firewall you can get if you have an old PC to spare just for that. It's called IPCop and it uses a modified version of Linux. I used it myself before I got a Linksys router which does much the same task but with much lower power usage. A firewall won't prevent mail based viruses though. For that I would suggest ditching the M$ mail programs and going with Mozilla. IPCop is at http://www.ipcop.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/IPCop/WebHome From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 16:47:33 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:47:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists Message-ID: <238590-2200475216473342@M2W062.mail2web.com> From: Eli natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > >>We could also do: > >>"You know you are a newbie transhumanist if you ..." >>"You know you are a reluctant transhumanist if you ..." >>"You know you are a Marxist transhumanist if you ..." >>"You know you are .... >What's a reluctant transhumanist? Is it anything like a reluctant virgin? Sometimes I think about people being pulled into the future by their coat-tails, as they are reaching out, grabbing for the past. It's a funny mental illustration. People may become transhumanist becasue it becomes so socially acceptable, they take it on to fit in, however reluctant -- like wearing blue jeans that are not really all that comfortable. N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 16:50:09 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:50:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators Message-ID: <53300-2200475216509467@M2W066.mail2web.com> Okay, I'll check it out. What do you all think? N Original Message: ----------------- From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 pgptag at gmail.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:30:50 +0200 To: natashavita at earthlink.net, extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators I think a system based on peer pressure that incentives posters to write good and relevant articles would be a positive feature. I think newcomers would limit themselves to posting comments to existing threads untli they become familiar with the list dynamics. Look at sciscoop.com and of course kuro5hin.org for examples of scoop. G. On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:22:39 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > ----------------- > > > >Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop > >(scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts > >with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement > >depending on the score. > > Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this pressure > posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for fear they > wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist posting if they felt > they were being judged. > > Thoughts? > > thanks! > > Natasha _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Fri Jul 2 17:12:17 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:12:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01EDE7@amazemail2.amazeent.com> I have several objections. An email list or newsgroup can be permanently archived on your machine. A scoop discussion can not. As a consequence, I can locally index and search my history for particular comments. A web-based system presumes continuous online access. Several times I've spent a good hour or more composing a considered reply to a particular post only to have it eaten by the system. Scoop and other collaborative blogging systems inevitably lead to groupthink. Giving arbitrary users the ability to censor or hide comments leads users to disagree by hiding comments they oppose instead of posting a rational, considered response. In addition, a simple configuration of your mailer or news reader allows you to delay posting of your message, giving you time to reconsider and realize your message was incendiary, stupid, or just incomplete. I can read an email list of newsgroup and still seem like I'm working. Believe it or not, this is a big issue for many people. In addition, many workplaces limit access to the web; and many web filters will add a sight to their filter list simply because it is controversial. My vote is for a mailing list, or a private (not necessarily membership-limited, just not propogated via nntp) news server. It maintains a hierarchy of responses, and can be stored and browsed locally and offline. Acy natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Okay, I'll check it out. > > What do you all think? > > N > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 pgptag at gmail.com > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:30:50 +0200 > To: natashavita at earthlink.net, extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators > > > I think a system based on peer pressure that incentives posters to > write good and relevant articles would be a positive feature. I think > newcomers would limit themselves to posting comments to existing > threads untli they become familiar with the list dynamics. > Look at sciscoop.com and of course kuro5hin.org for examples of scoop. > G. > > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:22:39 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net > wrote: >> >> ----------------- >> >> >>> Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop >>> (scoop.kuro5hin.org) where all readers act as moderators? Only posts >>> with enough votes are published to the list, and with a placement >>> depending on the score. >> >> Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this >> pressure posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for >> fear they wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist >> posting if they felt they were being judged. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> thanks! >> >> Natasha From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jul 2 17:26:56 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040702172655.GK12847@leitl.org> On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 12:39:49PM -0400, Gregory Propf wrote: > There's a free firewall you can get if you have an old PC to spare just > for that. It's called IPCop and it uses a modified version of Linux. I > used it myself before I got a Linksys router which does much the same If you have a Linksys WRT54G or WRT54GS, I recommend you download and install alternative firmware from Sveasoft. The public version (Satori 4.0) is free, whereas Alchemy, the bleeding edge/supported branch, is reserved for subscribers ($20/year). > task but with much lower power usage. A firewall won't prevent mail > based viruses though. For that I would suggest ditching the M$ mail Ditching Outlook and Internet Explorer (Office for Homeland Securitate now officially recommends you to pick up Mozilla/Firefox, so does CERT) as well as getting a decent virus scanner should be your next step. http://slashdot.org/articles/04/07/02/1441242.shtml?tid=103&tid=113&tid=126&tid=172&tid=95&tid=99 > programs and going with Mozilla. IPCop is at > http://www.ipcop.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/IPCop/WebHome -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dwish at indco.net Fri Jul 2 17:28:25 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:28:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E581BA.5090808@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here in the south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I do understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer a lot of amusement that their expense. I would like others to not discount mine or others from my state abilities to aid transhumanist ideas just because of our rural location. Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eliezer Yudkowsky Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:40 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > We could also do: > > "You know you are a newbie transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are a reluctant transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are a Marxist transhumanist if you ..." > "You know you are .... What's a reluctant transhumanist? Is it anything like a reluctant virgin? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 2 18:25:02 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <20040702182502.60413.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > I hope members of this group do not look at those > from the south as > uneducated inbreeds. Don't worry. There are enough uneducated inbreeds all around that there's no need to single out the South. Besides, the worst cases emphasize "from" the South, like a certain infamous politician whom I hear has been disowned by his home state (or, at least, that a motion to that effect has passed the currently in power legislature and governor - emphasis on "I hear"; I have not personally confirmed this rumor), so there's clearly some intelligent life there. ;) From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 2 18:26:40 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Re: For the nerds amongst us Message-ID: <20040702182640.72924.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Forwarded from a space habitat list, since I think the linked-to article might provoke some useful discussion. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [How to build a Space Habitat] For the nerds amongst us Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Size: 1889 URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:36:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: <16D6612F-CBC2-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040702183600.32717.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:02 AM, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > > > > Rather than having our list a private list, which is an option > being > > discussed by the Board and list moderators, I'd like to make sure > that > > this > > is the best route to take. > > > > A private list, for members only, may not be a bad thing. But, > then > > again, > > it may be and I do not want to make that decision without the full > > knowledge of list members and taking the time to listen to > everyone's > > views. > > > > > > Why would having it a private list help anything? I don't see it > being better myself. But I am probably missing something. Because it is invariably an issue of opinions of list members being attached to ExI by our opponents. Imagine Leon Kass getting on CNN with Max More and having Leon start making accusations that ExI and ExI board members advocate genocide.... If the list is private, then private discussions are not part of the public record. That being said, I recommend that ExI members join in on my list, extro-freedom, on yahoogroups, where they are still free to discuss any issue (though I have a dim view of people who argue with lies). Extro-freedom is not associated in any way with ExI and as such its members views or comments are not attached to it. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fortean1 at mindspring.com Fri Jul 2 18:40:31 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:40:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Forteanism and Experience Anomalies Message-ID: <40E5AC1F.8394771B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:27:10 -0700 From: "T. Peter Park" To: forteana at yahoogroups.com Subj: FWD [forteana] Forteanism and Experience Anomalies FORTEANISM AND EXPERIENCE ANOMALIES Dear fellow Forteans, Forteans investigate puzzling phenomena that seem inexplicable or even impossible by generally expected scientific theories--ghosts, poltergeists, UFOs, "alien abductions," "Bigfoot" and other "Hairy Hominids," Lake Monsters, crop circles, the West Virginia "Mothman," etc. Whenever possible, they try to find an explanation for such occurrences--whether conventional or extraordinary. More fundamentally, however, they also ask what such phenomena indicate about the nature of the world we find ourselves living in. Do generally accepted scientific knowledge and theories give a full and accurate picture of our world?, Forteans ask. Or is the accepted "mainstream" scientific world-picture seriously flawed and incomplete? Do Fortean and paranormal anomalies indicate the gaps and errors in our world-picture? Forteans have given different answers to these questions. Most agree, anomalous phenomena suggest that our prevailing "official" scientific world-picture may not be quite complete. Some Forteans feel that we only need to make a few small adjustments on the fringes of our scientific world-picture. Maybe, they suggest, the intelligent, scientifically advanced extraterrestrials postulated by SETI enthusiasts and "mainstream" astronomers like the late Carl Sagan are in fact already here with us, studying our planet, species, and civilization in their UFOs, perhaps even abducting some of us on occasion. Maybe, they speculate, pre-sapiens hominids (Australopithecines,_Homo erectus_, Neandertals, etc.), dinosaurs, plesiosaurs, or zeuglodons (serpentine prehistoric whales) did not die out completely, but are still with us today in odd corners of our planet, giving rise to Bigfoot, "Hairy Hominid," Sea Serpent, Lake Monster, or _mokele-mbembe_ reports. Other Forteans, however, believe that the anomalous evidence requires "far-out" theories and quite radical revisions of our scientific world-picture. UFOs, "aliens," "Hairy Hominids," Lake Monsters, "Mothman" type winged weirdos, and _mokele-mbembe_ "African Dinosaurs" alike, they suggest, might be semi-material psychic projections or thought-forms from the Collective Unconscious, or "ultraterrestrials" from another dimension, or "Inner Earth" denizens of a vast subterranean cavern realm (or even "hollow Earth") unknown to orthodox geologists, or even the angels, demons, djinn, or devas of traditional religious belief and mythology. Still other Forteans challenge accepted scientific theories of human origins and prehistory by espousing "Ancient Astronaut" theories like those of Erich von Daniken and Zechariah Sitchin, or religious fundamentalist "Scientific Creationism." Hollow- and flat-earth theories find their advocates in some segments of the Fortean and paranormalist community--as do all sorts of conspiracy theories. The Fortean conspiracy theorists, too, run a wide gamut. Some are relatively moderate believers in government UFO cover-up and Kennedy assassination conspiracies. A few even link the two, arguing that Fred Lee Crisman of 1947 Maury Island hoax ill-fame was a CIA agent who later turned up as one of the three "tramps" (i.e., gunmen) arrested at Dealey Plaza in Dallas in 1963. Others, however, espouse right-wing theories of Jewish, Catholic, Masonic, "New World Order," or "Illuminati" world-domination plots--against the protests of Forteans like Jerome Clark who warn that "scratch a conspiracy theorist, and a bigot bleeds." Some, indeed, accept the elaborate super-conspiracy theories of David Icke and the late Milton William Cooper, linking together the Elders of Zion, the Illuminati, reptilian space aliens in human disguise, underground UFO bases at Dulce or Area 51, and secret treaties between the government and the "Grays." All of these Forteans and conspiracists pride themselves on "thinking outside the box." However, the susceptibility of some Forteans to conspiracy theories involving ugly ethnic, racial, or religious prejudices is troubling to more thoughtful, rational, or liberal-minded Forteans. Forteans--cryptozoologists investigating mysterious creature reports, ufologists studying puzzling aerial phenomena and the humanoids or other anomalous entities sometimes observed in connection with those aerial phenomena, parapsychologists studying unusual mental phenomena, etc.--are popularly seen as "believing in" UFO's, "aliens," ghosts, Bigfoot, Lake Monsters, telepathy, etc. Some Forteans do indeed zealously "believe in" UFOs as extraterrestrial spacecraft, "Hairy Hominids" as surviving Australopithecines or Neandertals, Lake Monsters as surviving plesiosaurs, ghosts as the spirits of the dead, etc., collecting and publishing their data to support their pet theories. Most cryptozoologists, ufologists, and other Forteans, however, argue that true Forteanism is NOT "belief" in any pet hypothesis, nor commitment to any one particular explanation of anomalous phenomena. They see true Forteanism, rather, as involving an open-minded skepticism about reported phenomena hard to explain in terms of generally accepted scientific theories, and a willingness to consider a wide range of possible explanations for such reports, from the thoroughly mundane through the slightly speculative to the seemingly bizarre. True Forteans, they feel, see the generally accepted current scientific world-picture neither as perfectly complete, accurate, and infallible nor as completely worthless and misguided. As one leading contemporary Fortean, the cryptozoologist Loren Coleman, has stressed, "pursuers of the unknown, Forteans all, believe in nonbelief" (Loren Coleman, _Mysterious America: The Revised Edition_ [New York: Paraview Press, 2001], "Some Concluding Thoughts After Some Years on the Trail," p. 289). An "open-minded attitude to the many unexplained situations," he feels, is "the stock and trade of the Fortean" (Coleman,_Mysterious America_, p. 289). Coleman and his fellow cryptozoologists can "accept concrete answers, actual flesh and blood critters as the foundation to monster accounts." However, he adds, "a psychological answer may be at work with some of these accounts, and the rational conventional undiscovered animal answer may not be viable for all reports." He sees "room enough to consider many possibilities." However, he emphasizes that as a cryptozoologist he does not "believe" in monsters. Cryptozoology, he reiterates, is "not about 'belief.'" Believing is "the realm of religion," but "cryptozoology, like all sciences," is "about gathering the data and evidence to develop trends, patterns, and evidence which lead to hard facts and discoveries" (Coleman, _Mysterious America _, p. 289). Thus, Coleman suggests on the one hand that quite probably "some monsters in America are chimpanzee-like dryopithecines," "some mystery cats and maned lions are relict populations" of _Panthera atrox_, and "some lake monsters are unknown long-necked seals." However, he feels that there is also "room" in his "cosmic jokebox" for "teleporting alligators, Dover Demons," and "phantom clowns that imitate UFO's in all aspects but flight." (Coleman, _Mysterious America _, p. 289). Again, Coleman suggests that some "spook lights," those "ghostly globes of illumination that seem glued to specific locations," may be "related to discharges of electric energy produced by geological fault stresses. Some, however, may be related to "various kinds of parapsychological disturbances akin to ghosts," and "others to a form of geophysical phenomenon as yet not understood." He professes himself "not afraid to say 'I don't know.'" (Coleman, _Mysterious America _, p. 289). Another Fortean researcher, Jerome Clark, has noted an ambiguous duality in many anomalous phenomena, and suggested that they may be best regarded as "experience anomalies," phenomena which it is possible for people to experience, but whose actual nature or explanation is still unknown. What is commonly thought of as a single anomalous phenomenon (UFOs, Bigfoot, Lake Monsters, ball lightning), Clark finds, may be two phenomena, one admittedly bizarre but potentially explainable by current or near-future science (extraterrestrial spaceships, surviving prehistoric animals, etc.), the other seemingly just incredible, absurd, magical, or supernatural, totally violating any rational scientific world-view. Many such phenomena, he feels, are best described as "experience anomalies," something in-between ordinary hallucinations and encounters with physically real objects or creatures. They are something more than simple dreams, hallucinations, or visions, but not perhaps physically or objectively real, either. They do not, Clark feels, prove that strange entities or creatures really exist. They merely show that it is possible for people to sometimes seesuch things. We simply do not have the vocabulary needed to explain such things. In his Introduction to _Unexplained!_ (1999), Clark described evidence for "high-strangeness anomalies" as resting on "credible persons reporting incredble things," with "nothing but sincerity to show for it." This was not "the stuff of a scientific revolution," but also no reason to "rush into the vacuum with a naively reductionist account" rendering the anomalous claim "harmless" by "covering it with a 'natural' cause pulled out of a hat." It was "just as unwise" with "scientifically meaningless or overtly supernatural 'theories' based on a host of unverifiable assumptions about the nature of reality" proposed by occultists, advocates of "metaphysical" explanations, and theorists about other dimensions and "astral" or "etheric" realms (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! Strange Sightings, Incredible Occurrences & Puzzling Physical Phenomena_, 2nd edition [Canton, MI: Visible Ink Press, 1999], Introduction, pp. xviii-xix] However, it was "clear" that the "literature on anomalous phenomena," whether "written by proponents or debunkers," showed that "_we do not know_ why honest individuals, in all times and places, claim to see things that all evidence and logic tell us do not and can not exist." Human nature, Clark felt, "abhors an explanatory vacuum." Thus, in the "rhetoric of the debate" raging over reported anomalies through the centuries, a "strange entity" was transformed "either into a conventional object or animal to which it bears no resemblance or into an intruder from some magical dimension." If "neither explanation" was "especially helpful," it was because "the question has been framed wrongly." The question should not be, though it all too often was, "Do bizarre beasts and entities exist?" No "sensible, all-encompassing answer" was "possible." Rather, the question "really" was, "Is it possible to have the experience of encountering bizarre beasts and entities?" The "answer" here was "yes." This was "only to acknowledge modestly the obvious," which was, as folklorist Bill Ellis put it, that "weird stuff happens" (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! _, Introduction, p. xix). However, this was "in no way conceding anything about what all this weird stuff _means_." We can "grant," Clark felt, that "people 'see' fairies or merfolk without for a moment believing that fairies or merfolk are 'real'" in the sense of being physical creatures composed of matter, occupying space, and capable of being photographed or videotaped. Clark simply recognized that "such sightings are an experience it is possible to have, even though the actual dynamics of the experience remain unknown to us." Thus, "science as currently constructed has little to offer in the way of elucidation, and occultism has only obfuscation." The "nature of these experiences," however, did not need to "remain forever inexplicable." With the "ever-accelerating accumulation of knowledge in all areas," it would presumably be "possible sooner or later to place these experiences in a rational perspective," either as "heretofore-unsuspected perceptual anomalies" or as "glimpses of an otherwise-undetected larger reality." Whether the "solution" came "from the micro (subjective) or macro (objective) side of the existential ledger," it was "sure to teach us something real." Until then, these "events" should be "regarded simply as curiosities that represent some of human experience's more peculiar and unclassifiable aspects and about which it is difficult to say more." They should "not be seen as the foundation of a new science or a new religion," and they "ought not to threaten anyone who does not need to believe late-twentieth-century science has accounted for all the interesting phenomena of mind and nature" (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! _, Introduction, p. xix). Cryptozoologists, Clark noted, "deal with questions that seem straightforward enough, but become complicated by unwelcome intrusions of high-strangeness manifestations." Thus, "most investigators of Loch Ness monsters, for example," concentrated on "reports--and there are many--of creatures that could be real animals, even if ones usually thought extinct such as plesiosaurs and dinosaurs." They paid "as little attention as possible," however, to "reported sightings (usually on land) of things that look like aquatic camels, enormous crocodiles, mutated hippopotamuses, great salamanders, or--in one instance--a giant frog." Likewise, while most Bigfoot/Sasquatch reports involved hairy ape-like creatures that plausibly might well be relict survivors of our supposedly extinct evolutionary ancestors or cousins, "some aspects of their appearance verge on the apparitional, and a few instances hint at an association with UFO's." (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! _, Introduction, p. xxiii). "Not uncommonly," Clark thus found, "what is thought of as a single anomalous phenomenon" may be "two phenomena, one merely fantastic, the other utterly incredible." One "seems potentially explainable, more or less, by current (or near-future) science," while the other is "absurd or inexplicable, or both." This "peculiar duality" was "apparent even in such relatively sedate manifestations of nature as ball lightning" (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained _, Introduction, p. xxiii). The "temptations to reductionism (the witness was dreaming it) or occultism (it was a paranormal being from the etheric realm)" were "hard to resist" in discussing high-strangeness anomalies. Again, "human nature abhors an explanatory vacuum." However, "real understanding" demanded "intellectual modesty and patience, not to mention a huge tolerance for ambiguity" (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! _, Introduction, p. xxiv). "Anomalies of the highest strangeness" dwelt in a "twilight zone of ambiguity." To say that you have "seen" one was "not necessarily to say that the anomaly lives on in the world when it is not briefly occupying your vision and scaring the daylights out of you." We may "experience unbelievable things," but "our experiences of them may tell us nothing about them except that they can be experienced." One can "see" a mermaid or a werewolf," but "however impressive the experience may be," the "rest of us cannot infer from that that mermaids and werewolves are 'real.'" In fact, Clark felt, "we can be certain that they are not." And "that is all we can be certain of," because "all we have done here is to remove one explanation (that mermaids and werewolves live in the world) from consideration while failing to put another in its place" (Jerome Clark, _Unexplained! _, Introduction, p. xxv). Clark returned to this theme of "experience anomalies" in his 2000 _ Anomalist _ article "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men" on "The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction Phenomenon." He compared encounters with mermaids, fairies, and "aliens" as experiences which were quite real and baffling but did not necessarily indicate the real existence as physical space-time objects of the entities or creatures reported. UFO "alien" encounters seemed to be a contemporary counterpart of the mermaid and fairy encounters of earlier times. Clark cited a number of detailed ancient, medieval, and 18th and 19th century descriptions by reliable witnesses under excellent viewing conditions of entities closely resembling traditional folkloric "mermaids" and "mermen," but conceded that a half-fish half-human creature was a "zoological absurdity." Thus, those reliable witnesses with their excellent viewing conditions could not possibly have seen real biological "merfolk." (Jerome Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction Phenomenon," _The Anomalist_, No. 8, Spring 2000, p. 13) Still, Clark noted, those "merfolk" witnesses were not simply Ain the grip of popular superstitions which affected their sense of reality@ by distorting sightings of mundane objects or creatures like manatees, choppy ocean waves, or clumps of seaweed, as Awhat witnesses report about merfolk and what legends and folklore report about merfolk do not match.@ Legendary merfolk were Aintelligent beings with supernatural powers@ who Aspeak like normal human beings@ and Aeven shed their fishy bottoms to live on land and romance or wed@ humans. The Amerfolk of sightings,@ however,@ Aneither speak nor communicate anything but animal-like sounds,@ and Agive no particular indication of possessing more than an animal=s level of intelligence.@ Witnesses often called the merbeing an Aanimal,@ and used the pronoun Ait@ rather than Ahim@ or Aher.@ (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," pp. 13-14). Mermaids, fairy encounters, and UFO alien abductions all involved the "problem of extraordinary testimony by persons who are to all appearances reliable and rational." It was {hard to discuss these things" because "we don't even have a vocabulary for them." It was "hard to imagine," unless "we are discussing outright hallucinations, which I don't think we are," how "an experience and an event could be different categories of experience." Still, he was forced to concede, "as long as there have been human beings, they have been." (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p. 29). To an "unsettling extent," Clark felt, "so-called supernatural beliefs have been based not just on nebulous lore and rumor but on people's perceived experiences." People "believed in gods, monsters, fairies, and mermen" because "they, or people whom they knew to be credible, experienced them." Such "experience anomalies," as Clark called them, were "shaped by images and motifs familiar to those who lived within the culture in which those experiences were perceived." That seemed to be "generally true." Could it be, Clark wondered, that "our generation's experience anomalies take the shape of abducting aliens?" He added that he was "not discussing simple delusions or visions," but "experiences that in themselves are fantastic and inexplicable by current knowledge," experiences that "are at the same time different from and the same as those our ancestors knew from thousands of years of human interaction with the unknown" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p. 29). The "abduction phenomenon, or at least a good part of it," Clark suggested, might bear "only a superficial link with the UFO phenomenon of daylight discs, radar/visuals, landing traces, electromagnetic effects, and other hard evidence." That might be "why, after 40 years of concentrated investigation into it," the "evidence for abductions" had "yet to rise above the merely intriguing." Where was "the abduction equivalent," he asked, of well-established physical UFO evidence like "the RB-47 case, the McMinnville photos, the Trans-en-Provence or Delphos landing traces?" It was "thinkable" that "abductions, or at least many of them," were "experiences, not events," and that "in trying to bring them into the world and turning them into events, we're confusing moonbeams with the moon" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," pp. 29-30) Clark proposed "provisionally and undogmatically" that the abduction phenomenon, or much of it anyway," was a "modern version of the sort of experience anomalies those who once encountered merfolk, fairies, and other supernatural beings underwent." He was "not talking about hallucinations as ordinarily and fairly well understood," but about "something much stranger, something that defies our ordinary understanding of how we perceive the world." This "experiential reality" took "much of its imagery from ideas and images in the culture around it," but also had "its own curious, idiosyncratic dynamics" distinguishing actual encounters from traditional, legendary, or popular beliefs and imagery. He thus cited the "divergence between merfolk as experienced and merfolk as conceived in folklore and legend," and the "large difference between fairies as 'seen' and experienced, versus the fairylore of popular culture." To these, Clark added "an abduction phenomenon whose imagery can only be imperfectly traced to science fiction, UFO literature, and mass speculation and theory about extraterrestrial visitors" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p. 30) "If these experiences are not hallucinations," Clark felt, "they do not seem to be events, either." They were "intensely real to those to whom they happen," and they might "even be accompanied by ambiguous 'physical evidence,' not enough by a long shot to prove an extraordinary event, but sufficient to hint that something unusual took place." We were definitely "dealing with something that current knowledge cannot satisfyingly explain." We might "also be dealing with something that forever dwells inside a twilight zone of ambiguity." To "say that you have seen a bizarre or unearthly entity" was "not necessarily to say that the anomalous being or beast lives on in the world when it is not occupying your vision and scaring the daylights out of you." We "may experience unbelievable things," but "our experiences of them may tell us nothing about them except that they can be experienced" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," pp. 30-31) What might be "defeating our understanding," Clark reiterated, was a "lack of vocabulary as much as anything." Experience anomalies, he noted, "refuse pigeon-holing, and they promise without ever quite delivering." Maybe we needed, he suggested, "to look at the so far intractable problem of the abduction phenomenon from a new perspective," one that "respects witness testimony in a way that such testimony deserves to be respected, yet also does not duck the question of why we are as far as ever from being able to prove that UFO abductions are events that happen in the world." We needed a "perspective that puts abduction experiences into a larger historical context, and one that acknowledges how much we don't know about the world outside us, the world inside us, and maybe even that shadowy world that may, in some fashion supremely difficult to grasp, be in both places at once" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p. 31) -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:44:03 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Raw Saturn ring images ready In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702184403.33491.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Yes, checking.. it is the Encke Gap... I was so calm > and sure about what it could be last night, since the > images are not labelled in the press release, > but now that image has sunk into my brain. > > I must say : > > WOW !! THIS IMAGE IS ** AMAZING ** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I am accustomed to seeing the Encke Gap in images only a few pixels > wide (from Voyager mostly), and now I'm in awe. I'll bet > Mark Showalter is bouncing off the ceiling with that image. I have a question, though: Why are all the Cassini images in B&W??? As a kid I was wowed by the photos that NASA mailed me on my request, with their amazing colors. Did the color camera break, or are they doing the colorwheel/filter trick like that seen with the mars rovers??? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 20:12:59 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:12:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:39:49 -0400, Gregory Propf wrote: > > There's a free firewall you can get if you have an old PC to spare just > for that. It's called IPCop and it uses a modified version of Linux. I > used it myself before I got a Linksys router which does much the same > task but with much lower power usage. A firewall won't prevent mail > based viruses though. For that I would suggest ditching the M$ mail > programs and going with Mozilla. IPCop is at > http://www.ipcop.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/IPCop/WebHome > I use the free Coyote Linux Floppy Firewall myself. It boots off a single floppy disk, so your old 486 doesn't even need to have a hard disk or cd drive. Handy when your old hard disk finally fails, you can still use your old pc as a firewall. :) BillK From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 20:27:02 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:27:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanist Transplant from NY/LA Message-ID: <114050-2200475220272970@M2W052.mail2web.com> >OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol >I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as >uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here in the >south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I do >understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer a lot of >amusement that their expense. >I would like others to not discount mine or others from my state abilities >to aid transhumanist ideas just because of our rural location. Hey listen up - I've been transported to Texas - in the rural west hills. Yes, it's "Austin" so I get plenty of *kudos,* but it's still Texas, and there is no way of gett'n around that. I've even got Greg Burch as state-neighbor and you've seen that big thing on cement blocks he brags about having in his front yard. Can't get any worse than that - not even the Appalachian Trail in Kentucky compares to some of the stuff I have to listen to on the radio in the name of Jesus. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From scerir at libero.it Fri Jul 2 21:40:18 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:40:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] info on info References: <000101c45ff8$5fdaf610$6401a8c0@SHELLY><40E58FD5.8010101@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001901c4607d$2be34670$79bd1b97@administxl09yj> At the GR17, the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation, that takes place from 18th to 23rd July 2004 in Dublin, Ireland, http://www.dcu.ie/~nolanb/gr17.htm It seems that Stephen Hawking (Cambridge) gives a lecture on "The information paradox for black holes", following this abstract: "The Euclidean path integral over all topologically trivial metrics can be done by time slicing and so is unitary when analytically continued to the Lorentzian. On the other hand, the path integral over all topologically non-trivial metrics is asymptotically independent of the initial state. Thus the total path integral is unitary and information is not lost in the formation and evaporation of black holes. The way the information gets out seems to be that a true event horizon never forms, just an apparent horizon". [The above - perhaps - means that information does not vanish, in the BH dynamics. Information cannot be deleted in QM also, just erased, at most. So, good news.] From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Jul 3 00:22:11 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:22:11 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators References: <53300-2200475216509467@M2W066.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <003601c46093$c8c46670$852c2dcb@homepc> > What do you all think? > > N I doubt I'd bother reading a private ExI list. What would be the point? What subject matter would it contain that isn't available in other specialist lists? I'm not interested in being part of any 'secret communities'. A public list propagates good memes to some extent - and idiot posts get judged as that by each reader. A person who fears being judged is probably afraid to be alive. Good - let them be afraid. I don't care if most people approve or disapprove of particular posts. Information is often more important and empowering than entertainment and not all people are worth talking too so I don't care if they listen. A list that costs nothing to join and yet gives every person joining some ability to select out other posters not just for themselves but for the entire list would suffer a sort of tradgedy of the commons. It might be funny and entertaining but you'd get regression to the mean. Perhaps many of the more informative and intellectually engaging posts wouldn't get widely read and so might not appear at all. My 2 cents. Brett Paatsch From amara at amara.com Sat Jul 3 06:38:28 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:38:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Raw Saturn ring images ready Message-ID: (I put 'Raw' in the subject line for a good reason) To answer your question, Mike, it depends on the filters and it depends on the processing This explains about the filters http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/faq/raw-images.cfm#q15 This is an example of a (probably quickly) processed image combining filters http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/large-moons/images/PIA06081.jpg&type=image Those old colored Voyager rings images that NASA released took months to process from the raw data (they had a special laboratory at JPL devoted to processing images). Other colored photos that my old photopolarimeter (PPS) group released were one-d stellar occultation data, mapped onto the geometry of the rings to create a two-d image, with a somewhat random color added. The PPS 'images' were more for press purposes than anything else, since what the scientists were most interested in was the spatial details of the rings. Amara (from M?nchen) -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "The universe: a device contrived for the perpetual astonishment of astronomers." -- Arthur C. Clarke From benboc at lineone.net Sat Jul 3 09:29:09 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (Ben Cunningham) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:29:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2 References: <200407021800.i62I0EF06385@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <004201c460e1$0aef9cc0$ba062850@ibm300mx> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators ----------------- >Have you thought of using instead a system like Scoop ... > Yes, we have discussed this from time to time. Wouldn't this pressure posters pressured to be erudite, funny or informative, for fear they wouldn't get any thumbs up? Newcomers might resist posting if they felt they were being judged. > Thoughts? > thanks! > Natasha Well, you asked for thoughts, here's mine: Wouldn't this be making a strong political statement (a *democratic* list)? Is that something you want? It might also have the consequence of eliminating many minority opinions at source (any minority opinions, not just lets-nuke-the-bastids type opinions). Is that desirable? ben From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 3 11:23:03 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 04:23:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Jul 2, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > > OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol > > I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as > uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here in > the > south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I do > understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer a > lot of > amusement that their expense. Now wait, the poking fun is about "rednecks". I know of no law of nature such that rednecks are restricted to the south or even only exist when there is inbreeding. Heck, I've even known European rednecks! -s From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Jul 3 15:27:18 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:27:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" > On Jul 2, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > > OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol > > > > I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here in the south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I do understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer a lot of amusement that their expense. > Now wait, the poking fun is about "rednecks". I know of no law of nature such that rednecks are restricted to the south or even only exist when there is inbreeding. Heck, I've even known European rednecks! It wasn't recent, but I've made my views about the use of the term "rednecks" before. Many people here pooh-poohed me. But I'll say it again, for the record. I find the term "redneck" both racist and abhorrently classist (not to mention "jobist"). In my library I have a book from the early 1941s filled with jokes about Asians, blacks, Jews, etc. - each group getting its very own chapter of jokes. Ugly stuff, but not unlike the jokes about "rednecks" here. One of the meanings of "transhumanism" is that it's a "philosophy ... favoring the use of certain technologies to improve the human condition beyond the constraints of biological evolution." IMHO we can do a lot to improve the human condition now by resisting making fun of a certain class and "race" of people. Olga From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Jul 3 15:35:16 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:35:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Farms for Industry Message-ID: <008d01c46113$570bf1d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> "Plants could also be bred for specific uses such as special types of oils or fibers. They could in effect be used as "green factories" to produce whatever humankind needed in the future ..." http://www.enn.com/news/2004-06-22/s_25103.asp Olga From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 3 19:19:08 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:19:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > It wasn't recent, but I've made my views about the use of the term > "rednecks" before. Many people here pooh-poohed me. But I'll say it > again, > for the record. I find the term "redneck" both racist and abhorrently > classist (not to mention "jobist"). In my library I have a book from > the > early 1941s filled with jokes about Asians, blacks, Jews, etc. - each > group > getting its very own chapter of jokes. Ugly stuff, but not unlike the > jokes > about "rednecks" here. > Well, the way I use the term has nothing to do with race. I've known folks I consider redneck of all races. Nor does it have to do per se with "class". I've known people of all socioeconomic classes who the term fits imho. I have no idea why I should consider a term like "jobist" to be utterly devoid of meaning. Rednecks have been encountered with and without jobs and sometimes encountered in pretty high-powered jobs. You see, to me redneck is more of an attitude and worldview than anything else. What I call a redneck is someone who is very intolerant of most most people much different from his or herself, is xenophobic to the extreme, determined to be the way they consider "right" self-righteously regardless of just how "not right" their positioning is, is not open to reason and so on. I can see where a lot of stuff is wrapped up in redneck that is problematic and how it can be and is used to mark the "other" rigidly. But it isn't the way I use it usually except when joking around. > One of the meanings of "transhumanism" is that it's a "philosophy ... > favoring the use of certain technologies to improve the human > condition > beyond the constraints of biological evolution." IMHO we can do a lot > to > improve the human condition now by resisting making fun of a certain > class > and "race" of people. > > I agree with the sentiment although again I don't believe "redneck" refers to class or race. - samantha From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Jul 3 20:44:55 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:44:55 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com><596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" >> On Jul 3, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > I can see where a lot of stuff is wrapped up in redneck that is > problematic and how it can be and is used to mark the "other" rigidly. > But it isn't the way I use it usually except when joking around. Regarding the problematic aspect - it may not be the way *you* use it, but it is the way a lot people use it. Perception is everything, and perception is really what counts. And the perception of "redneck" is not complimentary. > > One of the meanings of "transhumanism" is that it's a "philosophy ... favoring the use of certain technologies to improve the human condition beyond the constraints of biological evolution." IMHO we can do a lot to improve the human condition now by resisting making fun of a certain class and "race" of people. > I agree with the sentiment although again I don't believe "redneck" refers to class or race. As for "race": Whenever I've heard it being used, "redneck" referred to (a certain class of) "white people." From the very inception of the word, "redneck" referred to whites. I realize words and phrases change meanings and sometimes evolve to mean different things in time, but one just can't get away from the *visual* image of a "red neck," hmmmm?: "The "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997) has this to say about the term: "REDNECK. A poor, white, often rowdy southerner, usually one from a rural area. The word, which is sometimes derogatory, has its origins in the sunburned necks of farmers and outdoor laborers, and originally meant a poor farmer." As for class: Again, the *perception* of the word "redneck" does have a definite classist component. It doesn't matter whether you personally don't believe redneck refers to a class - it does. Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jul 3 21:14:46 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:14:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:44 PM 7/3/2004 -0700, Olga wrote: >"The "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts >on File, New York, 1997) has this to say about the term: "REDNECK. A poor, >white, often rowdy southerner, usually one from a rural area. The word, >which is sometimes derogatory, has its origins in the sunburned necks of >farmers and outdoor laborers, and originally meant a poor farmer." My understanding (from an ancient biochemistry course I took in the '60s) is that it derived from the visual symptoms of the niacin deficiency disorder pellagra, marked by photosensitive dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, and ultimately death. This disease was often found in poor farmers working wretched land. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 3 21:38:42 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:38:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:14:46 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:44 PM 7/3/2004 -0700, Olga wrote: > > >"The "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts > >on File, New York, 1997) has this to say about the term: "REDNECK. A poor, > >white, often rowdy southerner, usually one from a rural area. The word, > >which is sometimes derogatory, has its origins in the sunburned necks of > >farmers and outdoor laborers, and originally meant a poor farmer." > > My understanding (from an ancient biochemistry course I took in the '60s) > is that it derived from the visual symptoms of the niacin deficiency > disorder pellagra, marked by photosensitive dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, > and ultimately death. This disease was often found in poor farmers working > wretched land. > Both could be correct. Redneck dates to 1830, when it was first used to denote the Presbyterians of Fayetteville. The significance of the name is somewhat obscure. Three explanations are commonly offered. First, it could be a reference to a ruddy neck caused by anger. Second, it could be a reference to sunburned necks caused by working in the fields all day. Finally, it could be a reference to pellagra which turns the neck red. There is also a tale in which it referred to striking coal miners who wore red bandannas as a means of group identification. This is unlikely due to what we know of its origin. The sunburn or pellagra explanation seems more likely than the anger one. Interestingly, the Afrikaans Rooinek, which literally means redneck, is a disparaging term the Boers used to apply to the British and later became associated with any European immigrant to South Africa. ------------------------------------- Now, the origin of 'Red Herring' is much more interesting. :) Until over-fishing depleted their ranks, herring were so numerous and so important as a staple foodstuff to both America and Europe that many writers referred to the Atlantic Ocean as "the herring pond." The downside of the little critters, however, is that they spoil very rapidly and become inedible. The only practical way to preserve herring is to cure them with a combination of salting and smoking, and those herring most heavily cured turn a deep crimson color from the process. Voila, red herring. Curing herring in this fashion not only preserves the fish and changes its color, but also gives it a distinctive smell, and thereby hangs the modern meaning of "red herring." In training hounds to hunt foxes, these red herrings, dragged on a string through the woods, were used to lay down a trail of scent for the dogs to follow. There is also some evidence that red herrings were, later in the training process, sometimes dragged across the scent trail of a real fox to test the ability of the hounds to ignore a false clue and stick to the scent of the fox. From this practice comes our use of "red herring" to mean a false clue or bogus issue designed to confuse one's opponent (or, in the case of our recent election, the voters). "Red herring" first appeared in the literal "smoked fish" sense around 1420, but the figurative "phony issue or false clue" sense didn't appear until around 1884. BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jul 3 21:48:38 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:48:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Surgeon General reports: Travel to Saturn's rings might cause cancer Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703164719.01b6bbd8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> During the ring plane crossing, the radio and plasma wave science instrument on Cassini measured little puffs of plasma produced by dust impacts. While crossing the plane of Saturn's rings, the instrument detected up to 680 dust hits per second. "The particles are comparable in size to particles in cigarette smoke," said Dr. Don Gurnett of the University of Iowa, Iowa City, principal investigator for the instrument. "When we crossed the ring plane, we had roughly 100,000 total dust hits to the spacecraft in less than five minutes. We converted these into audible sounds that resemble hail hitting a tin roof." http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2004-171 From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Jul 3 22:43:20 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:43:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com><596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac><001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003301c4614f$250a01e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Damien Broderick" > At 01:44 PM 7/3/2004 -0700, Olga wrote: > > >"The "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts > >on File, New York, 1997) has this to say about the term: "REDNECK. A poor, > >white, often rowdy southerner, usually one from a rural area. The word, > >which is sometimes derogatory, has its origins in the sunburned necks of > >farmers and outdoor laborers, and originally meant a poor farmer." > > My understanding (from an ancient biochemistry course I took in the '60s) > is that it derived from the visual symptoms of the niacin deficiency > disorder pellagra, marked by photosensitive dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, > and ultimately death. This disease was often found in poor farmers working > wretched land. Interesting. I was not aware of this particular derivation. "Redneck" made its first impression on me in late 1966 (strange that I can still remember this incident). Walt Disney died. An acquaintance of mine said (of Disney) - "He was a redneck." At that time "redneck" was used interchangeably with "cracker" and "racist," and meant a white Southern bigot. Olga . From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jul 4 00:43:18 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:43:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703173841.0325c930@mail.earthlink.net> At 01:44 PM 7/3/04 -0700, Olga wrote: >As for class: Again, the *perception* of the word "redneck" does have a >definite classist component. It doesn't matter whether you personally don't >believe redneck refers to a class - it does. Redneck is an endearing term used in fun and nobody takes it seriously these days. Take a look at Foxworthy's website and his world-class comic stick. He has made redneck as familiar as American Pie. I highly doubt anyone is offended by his sense of humor and delight. I think it is essential to have a sense of humor here, especially after the past week. So, let's cut a little slack and relax. No one is being racist or ethnically uncouth. It is how a person uses words, and I think we all are being warm-hearted. I'm a redneck in Austin, and I also have a terrible red rash around my neck from wearing silver, which I am allergic to. So, call me a redneck and I'll give you a big hug. But, if there is a redneck on this list who is offended, let the moderators know and they can kick me off the list. Enjoy having fun! It's the 4th of July weekend! N Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jul 4 00:55:01 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:55:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Red Herring Transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703175312.032651e0@mail.earthlink.net> At 10:38 PM 7/3/04 +0100, BillK wrote: >------------------------------------- > >Now, the origin of 'Red Herring' is much more interesting. :) > ... >Curing herring in this fashion not only preserves the fish and changes >its color, but also gives it a distinctive smell, and thereby hangs >the modern meaning of "red herring." In training hounds to hunt foxes, >these red herrings, dragged on a string through the woods, were used >to lay down a trail of scent for the dogs to follow. There is also >some evidence that red herrings were, later in the training process, >sometimes dragged across the scent trail of a real fox to test the >ability of the hounds to ignore a false clue and stick to the scent of >the fox. From this practice comes our use of "red herring" to mean a >false clue or bogus issue designed to confuse one's opponent (or, in >the case of our recent election, the voters). "Red herring" first >appeared in the literal "smoked fish" sense around 1420, but the >figurative "phony issue or false clue" sense didn't appear until >around 1884. Very nice red herring for the redneck thread :-) N Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Jul 4 00:22:18 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:22:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carbon bonding from Cassini and on Earth Message-ID: I didn't process this, my VIMS group at Tucson and JPL processed this: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/titan/images/PIA06405.jpg&type=image Titan's surface revealed July 3, 2004 Full-Res: PIA06405 Piercing the ubiquitous layer of smog enshrouding Titan, these images from the Cassini visual and infrared mapping spectrometer reveals an exotic surface covered with a variety of materials in the southern hemisphere. Using near-infrared colors--some three times deeper in the red visible to the human eye--these images reveal the surface with unusual clarity. The left image shows a variety of surface features at a wavelength of 2.0 microns. The darker areas are possibly regions of relatively pure water ice, while the brighter regions likely have a much higher amount of non-ice materials such as simple hydrocarbons. The middle image measured at a wavelength of 2.8 ----- and I dedicate it to Eugene and Ulrike, who now have the hitched pleasure of exploring each other's exotic surface for a very very very long time. Thank you for letting me participate in your precious day, Eugene. Amara (and again, Congratulations!) -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The best presents don't come in boxes." --Hobbes From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Sat Jul 3 23:39:10 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:39:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <003301c4614f$250a01e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040703161021.01be3ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <003301c4614f$250a01e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <04Jul3.193913-0400_edt.313913-29298+12523@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Olga Bourlin writes: > "Redneck" made its first impression on me in late 1966 (strange that I can > still remember this incident). Walt Disney died. An acquaintance of mine > said (of Disney) - "He was a redneck." At that time "redneck" was used > interchangeably with "cracker" and "racist," and meant a white Southern > bigot. I grew up in Florida, with Southern crackers, and in the shadow of Disney World. I'm afraid that this is the meaning of the word "redneck" that I grew up with. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From duggerj1 at charter.net Sat Jul 3 23:50:33 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:50:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanists On Tour Message-ID: <3948se$2cf50f@mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> Saturday, 03 July 2004 Hello all, As I live out of hotels more often than not, I'll mention that work occassionally takes me to both Atlanta, Georgia and Little Rock, Arkansas. I will spend most of July in Tucson, Arizona. If anyone would like to meet, just contact me off-list. Jay Dugger : Til Eulenspiegel http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jul 4 00:17:31 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:17:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carbon bonding in Krautland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703191629.01d5b898@pop-server.satx.rr.com> 'Gene! You dog! Congratulations. Damien Broderick From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jul 4 01:03:49 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:03:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com><596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703173841.0325c930@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006601c46162$c4414e40$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Natasha Vita-More > Redneck is an endearing term used in fun and nobody takes it seriously these days. Take a look at Foxworthy's website and his world-class comic stick. He has made redneck as familiar as American Pie. I highly doubt anyone is offended by his sense of humor and delight. Okay - call me a wet blanket, party pooper, buzz killer, but ... I still don't buy it. I love good humor, but suppose I'm not a fan of "putting-down-some-ethnic-group"-type humor. To be sure, the subject line could have read "White Trash Transhumanists," or "Hillbilly Transhumanists," "Faggot Transhumanists," or even "Nigger Transhumanists," and someone could have pointed how sometimes those terms are used affectionately, and directed us to a Richard Pryor website for his world-class comic schticks using some of those very words. But there are kids out there being hurt every day by those very words, directed at them, their friends, their parents, so forgive me if I'm still not convinced ... But I'll take the hug, Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jul 4 03:38:46 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:38:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <006601c46162$c4414e40$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703173841.0325c930@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703203821.02ea7c10@mail.earthlink.net> At 06:03 PM 7/3/04 -0700, Olga Bourlin wrote: >But I'll take the hug, There now, that's much better. :-) N -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Jul 4 01:41:52 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:41:52 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carbon bonding in Krautland References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703191629.01d5b898@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <007801c46168$14d76510$852c2dcb@homepc> "Damien Broderick" wrote: > 'Gene! You dog! Congratulations. Reading between the lines, or rather, behind Damien's subject header, I conclude Eugen is a father. Congratulations Eugen. Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Jul 4 01:50:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:50:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carbon bonding in Krautland References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703191629.01d5b898@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <007801c46168$14d76510$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <00a101c46169$40a25fa0$852c2dcb@homepc> > "Damien Broderick" wrote: > > > 'Gene! You dog! Congratulations. > > Reading between the lines, or rather, behind Damien's subject header, > I conclude Eugen is a father. > > Congratulations Eugen. > > Brett Paatsch Oops. I then read Amara's post. Wrong level of "carbon" "bonding". Congratulations anyway. From megao at sasktel.net Sun Jul 4 01:46:08 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:46:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Farms for Bio-products. References: <008d01c46113$570bf1d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <40E76160.6F0BA82D@sasktel.net> Here you are speaking to yesterday's farmer and today's aspiring Pharmer. Bioproducts can range from direct extraction of oils, starches, proteins, selective mechanical or chemical fractionation, fibres and novel bioproducts such as bio-cosmeceuticals, nutraceuticals or biopharmaceuticals. Secondary processing into biofuels, ethanol, methanol or fermentation co-products are all or will soon be a mainstream part of farming. These can be reformed into hydrogen fromn regional tertiary processing sites. (This is Saskatchewan's actual goal). The tertiary processing to produce more exotic co-products such as nanotubes or DNA, RNAi fragments or buckyballs is also an exciting prospect. Just like the fun kids have looking at the honeycombs of wasp nests we may soon do nano-bio-tech building blocks as bio-co-products. So unlike a previous thread heralding the end of agriculture, I see agriculture blossoming into a myriad of new bio-based products. You are talking the the guy with the strange idea the from a core business of custom grown/processed hemp and marijuanas with compounded co-product additions such as berberine from barberry , gotu kola bioproducts, mushroom extracts one can build a plant-based natural-health bio-product biopharmaceutical enterprise. As well, this may begin a reversal of the depopulation of the rural areas as intensive processing is equally easy to do in rural as in urban technology micro-clusters. Now for a bit of self agrandisement.................... Subject: Re: Draft: Custom Compounded Natural Health Bio-Product market Development. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:23:01 -0500 From: "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." To: B Taylor , larry.mueller at sasktel.net References: 1 Hi Brian: Everybody here thinks that what you say explains the merits and supports the issue and does so in clear and easy to read way. Thanks and when I get a supply of barberry bark I'll have to send you some. B Taylor wrote: I would like to ad my personal support and offer a few comments in relation to the above request for support.I was pleased recently to represent approximately 7000 grey area medical cannabis users at a Health Canada planning meeting in Ottawa. Over the next few months with the introduction of new regulations, Canada will experience a dramatic increase in the number of medical users. Most of those chronically ill Canadian that have belonged to "Compassion Clubs" will be eligible to become legal. California, that has had these, more inclusive regulations, and have a similar population to that of Canada, has 80,000 registered medical users. The new regulations are driven by court decisions more than politics and will proceed, regardless.The supply issue remains the weakest part of the new Health Canada plan. I have grown cannabis with a legal license for two years. Far too many patients are being forced to grow. Patients wish to remain in control of their supply but are unable to grow in their own environment.Morris Johnson and his team have a formula that will work. Our company the Cannabis Research Institute Inc. have the same vision and similar initiatives. I urge you to fund this initiative and begin the establishment of a regional cannabis supply network Brian TaylorEditor of Cannabis Health JournalCEO of Cannabis Health Foundation and Cannabis Research Institute Inc.PO Box 1481, Grand Forks, BC V0H 1H0 PH: 250-442-5166 FAX: 250-442-5167 TOLL FREE: 1-866-808-5566 Email: editor at cannabishealth.com Web: http://www.cannabishealth.com **************************************************************** Olga Bourlin wrote: > "Plants could also be bred for specific uses such as special types of oils > or fibers. They could in effect be used as "green factories" to produce > whatever humankind needed in the future ..." > > http://www.enn.com/news/2004-06-22/s_25103.asp > > Olga > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From evmick at earthlink.net Sun Jul 4 16:27:53 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 11:27:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] An Open Letter to the Scientific Community. Message-ID: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> While browsing thru some stuff at a truck stop the other day I came across this. *********** An Open Letter to the Scientific Community (Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004) The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory. But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation. Without some kind of dark matter, unlike any that we have observed on Earth despite 20 years of experiments, big-bang theory makes contradictory predictions for the density of matter in the universe. Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory's explanation of the origin of the light elements. And without dark energy, the theory predicts that the universe is only about 8 billion years old, which is billions of years younger than the age of many stars in our galaxy. What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory's supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centred cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles. Yet the big bang is not the only framework available for understanding the history of the universe. Plasma cosmology and the steady-state model both hypothesise an evolving universe without beginning or end. These and other alternative approaches can also explain the basic phenomena of the cosmos, including the abundances of light elements, the generation of large-scale structure, the cosmic background radiation, and how the redshift of far-away galaxies increases with distance. They have even predicted new phenomena that were subsequently observed, something the big bang has failed to do. Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined. An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding. Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed. This reflects a growing dogmatic mindset that is alien to the spirit of free scientific enquiry. Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory. Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible. To redress this, we urge those agencies that fund work in cosmology to set aside a significant fraction of their funding for investigations into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang. To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology. Allocating funding to investigations into the big bang's validity, and its alternatives, would allow the scientific process to determine our most accurate model of the history of the universe. Initial signers: (Institutions for identification only) Halton Arp, Max-Planck-Institute Fur Astrophysik (Germany) Andre Koch Torres Assis, State University of Campinas (Brazil) Yuri Baryshev, Astronomical Institute, St. Petersburg State University (Russia) Ari Brynjolfsson, Applied Radiation Industries (USA) Hermann Bondi, Churchill College, Cambridge (UK) Timothy Eastman, Plasmas International (USA) Chuck Gallo, Superconix, Inc.(USA) Thomas Gold, Cornell University (emeritus) (USA) Amitabha Ghosh, Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur (India) Walter J. Heikkila, University of Texas at Dallas (USA) Michael Ibison, Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin (USA) Thomas Jarboe, Washington University (USA) Jerry W. Jensen, ATK Propulsion (USA) Menas Kafatos, George Mason University (USA) Eric J. Lerner, Lawrenceville Plasma Physics (USA) Paul Marmet, Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics(retired) (Canada) Paola Marziani, Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica, Osservatorio Astronomico di Padova (Italy) Gregory Meholic, The Aerospace Corporation (USA) Jacques Moret-Bailly, Universit? Dijon (retired) (France) Jayant Narlikar, IUCAA(emeritus) and College de France (India,France) Marcos Cesar Danhoni Neves, State University of Maring? (Brazil) Charles D. Orth, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (USA) R. David Pace, Lyon College (USA) Georges Paturel, Observatoire de Lyon (France) Jean-Claude Pecker, College de France (France) Anthony L. Peratt, Los Alamos National Laboratory (USA) Bill Peter, BAE Systems Advanced Technologies (USA) David Roscoe, Sheffield University (UK) Malabika Roy, George Mason University (USA) Sisir Roy, George Mason University (USA) Konrad Rudnicki, Jagiellonian University (Poland) Domingos S.L. Soares, Federal University of Minas Gerais (Brazil) John L. West, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology (USA) James F. Woodward, California State University, Fullerton (USA) *************** I personally never heard of none of them guys.....probably a bunch of cranks....as are the institutions they represent...why...not a single truck drivers school amongst the lot..... We probably ought to dismiss what they say entirely....after all everyone KNOWS the "Big Bang" can't be wrong.. EvMick (sitting in south Georgia...waiting on a load Tuesday....bored to tears.....I HATE Holidays) From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jul 4 18:55:29 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:55:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ludd rools, OK Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040704135424.01cbd350@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Genetically Modified Crop Research Collapses in UK as Last Big Firm Quits By GEOFFREY LEAN Environment Editor The Independent (U.K.) Research into genetically modified crops in Britain is set to collapse, following the withdrawal of the last major biotech company, pro-GM scientists, the industry and environmentalists have all told The Independent on Sunday. Last week Syngenta, the only big firm still working on genetically modified agriculture in the UK, announced it was moving all its operations to the United States. The Anglo-Swiss company will stop all GM research at its site in Berkshire and move it to North Carolina, with a loss of 130 jobs. Yesterday leaders of both sides of the debate predicted that the development of GM crops in Britain was doomed for the foreseeable future. They said university research is increasingly financed by businesses, and doubted the Government would continue to plough public money into research that had no application in Britain. Professor Anthony Trewavas, the Professor of Plant Biochemistry at Edinburgh University, told The Independent on Sunday: "This is a sad retreat. Work in universities will probably cease as well." He said it would have "long-term" effects because "once teams are dispersed it takes a long time to get things back together again". Professor Michael Wilson, Professor of Plant Biology at Warwick University and a member of the government-appointed GM science panel, said: "I am afraid that the Luddites have effectively won." He blamed the media and "ego-tripping and propagandising" environmentalists. The GM industry's Agriculture and Biotechnology Council said research in the UK was becoming more difficult because of a lack of government support. But Lord Melchett, Policy Director of the Soil Association, said that the technology had been rejected because of "deep public unease". Pete Riley, of the Five Year Freeze, an anti-GM pressure group, said: "If you produce things that people do not want to buy you cannot expect to stay in business long." He urged the Government to provide more finance to university researchers so that they were less dependent on commercial funding. From duggerj1 at charter.net Sun Jul 4 20:58:17 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:58:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Space Elevator '04 Conference--Did Anyone Go? Message-ID: <391taj$2fiuga@mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Sunday, 04 July 2004 Happy Independence Day! Hello all: Did anyone on-list attend the recent Space Elevator Conference in Washington, D.C.? I'd like to know if any presentations had special merit or flaw. ISR hasn't yet posted any papers from this year. Those interested can find them at http://www.isr.us/SpaceElevatorConference/2003presentations.html Jay Dugger : Til Eulenspiegel http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jul 4 21:31:36 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:31:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] climate control In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703164719.01b6bbd8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4620e$48fad9c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> I propose lobbying the feds to allow unlimited immigration to all female Nepalese farmers. Then I will pray for drought: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/07/04/nepal.farmers.ap/index.html From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 03:39:59 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:09:59 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: <20040701101726.GM12847@leitl.org> References: <004301c45f0d$0112a830$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20040701101726.GM12847@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc040704203971f98119@mail.gmail.com> That's hyperwhisky in klein bottles, ey? Emlyn On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:17:26 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 06:44:52PM -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > Yeah, I live in Arkansas. We're not all uncultured rednecks. > > > > Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck > > transhumanist. > > What of hyperwhiskey-jar swiggin' cyberbillies, though? > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > -- Emlyn From starman2100 at cableone.net Mon Jul 5 17:53:56 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:53:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist Message-ID: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samantha at objectent.com Mon Jul 5 18:17:47 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:17:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <200407021627.i62GRbJc024440@br549.indconet.com> <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <001601c4613e$99363630$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <9DE609A0-CEAF-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Jul 3, 2004, at 1:44 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Samantha Atkins" >>> On Jul 3, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: >> I can see where a lot of stuff is wrapped up in redneck that is >> problematic and how it can be and is used to mark the "other" rigidly. >> But it isn't the way I use it usually except when joking around. > > Regarding the problematic aspect - it may not be the way *you* use it, > but > it is the way a lot people use it. Perception is everything, and > perception > is really what counts. And the perception of "redneck" is not > complimentary. Perception is NOT everything. My assertion of the opposite of your assertion leaves both of us nowhere. A lot of people mean a lot of very bizarre things by much of what they say. Does this mean that all of my words must carefully be screened by some notion of majority usage and meaning? Is this particular fine tuning of speech likely to really gain us enough to be worth the energy expended? > > As for class: Again, the *perception* of the word "redneck" does have > a > definite classist component. It doesn't matter whether you personally > don't > believe redneck refers to a class - it does. > > Heck, I don't even take much stock in "class". - s From mail at cheeseman.sh Mon Jul 5 21:57:56 2004 From: mail at cheeseman.sh (Frederick H. Cheeseman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:57:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] HEALTH: No need for nanotech, AI, ... et cetera ;-) Message-ID: <1089064676.6160.14.camel@charlie.one.org.be> The only solution : http://www.anti-aging-beer.com/index.htm Fred ;-) From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 22:50:26 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:50:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] politics in the sports world In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040703164719.01b6bbd8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003e01c462e2$76ce0280$6401a8c0@SHELLY> The chess world is all tangled up in politics. Heres a condensed power point version: - world championship cycles have been bogged down in politics - there hasn't been an official world champion for years - Gary Kasparov has been the highest rated player for a long time - They managed to get a country to sponsor a championship: Libya - yes, Libya - Jews were excluded - some top players boycotted because Israelis were banned - number 54 on the world list, Rustam Kasimdzhanov, pulled off one stunning upset after another slaying monsters: - #16 Grischuk, - #12 Ivanchuk - just this morning #7, Bulgarian Veselin Topalov. - Kasimdzhanov is from Uzbekistan, presumably Muslim - Tomorrow Kasimdzhanov faces an Englishman in the final, world #6 Michael Adams - This could be the most politicized chess match since 1972 Fischer/Spassky http://wcclibya2004.com/main.asp From riel at surriel.com Tue Jul 6 01:16:53 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] LIST: Nominating Moderators In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040702083014af7636@mail.gmail.com> References: <271330-22004752152239359@M2W097.mail2web.com> <470a3c52040702083014af7636@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I think a system based on peer pressure that incentives posters to > write good and relevant articles would be a positive feature. I'm afraid a system based on peer pressure will pressure posters into writing what the other people like to read. Highly detrimental to extropians, after all part of the extropian nature is to go against entropy, not with it ;) Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jul 6 01:39:41 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:39:41 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Raw Saturn ring images ready In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amara, thank you so much for posting the URL for these. I shared it with some friends and they're delighted with it. Also saved "Ringworld Waiting" for my desktop, it makes me smile. Just to think that we could get there, see this, send the pictures home! My grandchildren will be able to go to the stars! :) Regards, MB From amara at amara.com Tue Jul 6 10:03:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:03:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] dancing and politics in the sports world Message-ID: Last Sunday night, Greece won the Europe 2004 soccer match. I didn't know because I was on planes, trains and automobiles. However, the night before, I accidently experienced some of the Greek dancing in a suburb of Muenchen, in their anticipation of their astounding beating-all-odds win. On Saturday night, after the big WOW! celebration of Eugene and Ulrike's wedding, his mother and I visited a Greek restaurant to have a drink, and, in the restaurant was live music: from a bouzouki, and a guitar, and dancing and dancing and dancing. Spontaneous! Just as I read, it is *true*. The Greeks dance when they are sad,they dance when they are happy... The music from the bouzouki grabs you, holds you, and doesn't let you go, and so you _must_ dance. The center floor was filled with Greeks making their wonderful dances. Probably I would have gone on the floor to dance the last one.. I was almost there... The last song was that famous piece that Anthony Quinn dances to, in the film: _Zorba the Greek_. The dance to that song called the 'eagle dance'. I've seen it, and the Greeks dancing on the center floor were dancing that. Arms outstretched, Torso straight. Feet making those little movements. Fantastic. So then the people were whooping and dancing, when the song accelerated to the next level in speed (you have to imagine how that song goes), and then... .... .... the music STOPPED! The dance floor was frozen with arms outstretched and feet glued midstep. The German polizia were at the front door. The time was 15 minutes after 12-midnight. A rule in the neighborhood of that restaurant is that loud music must stop at 12-midnight. Some of the neighbors called the police, I suppose, and so then the police came to tell the musicians to stop. That was the end of the party! What a way to stop a dance .... -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From duggerj1 at charter.net Tue Jul 6 13:10:03 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 8:10:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] test--please ignore Message-ID: <391r9h$2e4ppq@mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net> test Jay Dugger : Til Eulenspiegel http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From dwish at indco.net Tue Jul 6 13:24:12 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:24:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanist Transplant from NY/LA In-Reply-To: <114050-2200475220272970@M2W052.mail2web.com> Message-ID: Natasha, That is also not to mention the love Texas has to frying the mentally challenged in prison. ("Sit here in Santa's Chair Johnny"..."OK officer Bob"). I think we all can move on now. lol. I just wanted to make sure others didn't discount me or others. I have had several emails off list that confirm the exists outside the south several varieties of rednecks even outside the US. Thanks again by letting me stir the pot by asking if there where transhumanists in AR. Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of natashavita at earthlink.net Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 3:27 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanist Transplant from NY/LA >OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol >I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as >uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here in the >south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I do >understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer a lot of >amusement that their expense. >I would like others to not discount mine or others from my state abilities >to aid transhumanist ideas just because of our rural location. Hey listen up - I've been transported to Texas - in the rural west hills. Yes, it's "Austin" so I get plenty of *kudos,* but it's still Texas, and there is no way of gett'n around that. I've even got Greg Burch as state-neighbor and you've seen that big thing on cement blocks he brags about having in his front yard. Can't get any worse than that - not even the Appalachian Trail in Kentucky compares to some of the stuff I have to listen to on the radio in the name of Jesus. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2838 bytes Desc: not available URL: From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 7 00:50:16 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:50:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] An Open Letter to the Scientific Community. In-Reply-To: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> References: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40EB48C8.2040709@optusnet.com.au> Everitt Mickey wrote: > I personally never heard of none of them guys.....probably a bunch of > cranks....as are the institutions they represent...why...not a single > truck drivers school amongst the lot..... > Thomas Gold, Cornell University (emeritus) (USA) You probably should have heard of this one. He also had some rather unconventional theories about so-called "fossil fuels". (He claimed, and presented a fair bit of evidence, that petroleum deposits were actually primordial rather than fossil.) He also died recently - 22 June 2004. > We probably ought to dismiss what they say entirely....after all > everyone KNOWS the "Big Bang" can't be wrong.. > > > EvMick > (sitting in south Georgia...waiting on a load Tuesday....bored to > tears.....I HATE Holidays) Well, it's Tuesday now :) -David From brian at posthuman.com Tue Jul 6 17:22:11 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> I think that after you learn to drive as defensively as possible, including increasing your situational awareness to the max, there isn't much else you can do after that, but one additional factor is probably determining what vehicle to drive. There has been a small amount of discussion of this previously here. Some people seem to think that the top priority in vehicle safety should be maneuverability (like a sports car) while others think the best is a large massive vehicle (like a midsize or greater SUV). The RD article makes a point against the idea that you can maneuver your way out of some accidents. In the head-on collision it profiled the expert said: "It doesn't appear that Swann had time to take evasive action. It was over in a second,". So there are roughly two sets of possibilities I think - 1. The event that is causing the threat is so sudden that even in a high end sports car you have no chance to evade it 2. The event happens far enough away to give even a large SUV time to avoid it - for instance if someone starts veering into your lane far enough away that you can notice it and slow down or get out the way. So in case that you can see the danger coming a sports car probably doesn't provide any significant advantage. And in cases where you don't see it coming or see it too late it isn't going to help either. If you are going to eventually suffer a major crash (and odds say you will eventually if you drive long enough) then physics says in general the more massive vehicle in the crash will suffer lower accelerations / forces and will therefore be less likely to cause damage to its occupants. I think it's also worth considering that a good sports car will also tempt even the safest of drivers to occasionally go on a high speed / high risk jaunt. For some good information I also recommend looking at this PDF: "Are SUVs safer than cars? An analysis of risk by vehicle type and model" http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/teepa/pdf/TRB_Safety_1-03.pdf Slide 17 in there shows decreasing risk to drivers as the mass of the vehicle climbs. The report seems to try to downplay that correlation, but I don't find it convincing. Slide 19 also shows that more expensive vehicles are safer. There are also other nice tidbits in there like: foreign car designs are in general safer than domestic, some compact or even subcompact cars have pretty good safety, foreign luxury cars are generally safest, etc. My suggestions: 1. If possible, try to live close to work / minimize car travel. Even if the housing there costs a bit more you might make it up in reduced car insurance, reduced car depreciation, reduced car operating expenses, etc. 2. It is probably worth the money to buy / maintain a vehicle with a larger-than-average mass IF the vehicle is also well-designed: it has modern safety features like side / head airbags, above average handling / accident avoidance capability, and also has clearly shown to be safe in side, offset, and head-on crash testing. For example, the new model Ford F-150 is a massive truck with side airbags available, yet in offset crash testing performs very poorly due to structural design flaws that allow significant deformation of the driver's space. On the other hand many minivans weigh a bit less but perform much better in testing. So you have to do some homework. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 18:15:08 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:15:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: Excellent article from Reader's Digest. As the article points out, the interstate freeways are the safest roads to drive on. The traffic flows are separated by a barrier and there are very few red lights or stop signs to run through. "An overwhelming 86 percent of traffic fatalities happen on side roads and byways." Just running down to the shops is really dangerous! At almost all ages, males have much higher motor vehicle death rates per 100,000 people compared with females. The highest motor vehicle death rate is among males 85 years and older and males age 16-24. So try not to be too young or too old. ;) And for safety reasons, the females should drive and the males should just sit there criticizing their driving. ;) It is a mistake to assume that car occupant deaths are all from cars running into each other. Only 58% occurred in multiple-vehicle crashes. 42% of car occupant deaths in 2002 occurred in single-vehicle crashes. In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes involving SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. And you are not safe even if you don't drive a car. ~25% of the total road deaths are non-car occupants, e.g. pedestrians, motor-cyclists, bicyclists, etc. Drive defensively, try and keep a big space between you and the idiot in the car in front of you, always wear your seat belt, and don't assume that just because you have the right-of-way that it is safe to proceed. Assume that every other driver is a suicidal terrorist out to get you and you won't go far wrong. ;) BillK From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Tue Jul 6 21:59:40 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:59:40 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> Brian Atkins wrote: > Slide 17 in there shows decreasing risk to drivers as the mass of the > vehicle climbs. The report seems to try to downplay that correlation, > but I don't find it convincing. Slide 19 also shows that more expensive > vehicles are safer. So, given that you have an accident, higher mass vehicles are safer (for their occupants)... BillK wrote: > In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes involving > SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. > So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. ...but SUVs and pickups (higher mass vehicles) have more accidents. Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable to assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying that SUV drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher survivability. Paul Bridger From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 22:52:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <596527BE-CCE3-11D8-A787-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040706225230.33098.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Jul 2, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > > > > > OK, I feel I started something that maybe out of control...lol > > > > I hope members of this group do not look at those from the south as > > uneducated inbreeds. I do poke fun at the stereotypes we have here > in > > the > > south, but know this is not the case for the most part. However, I > do > > understand that the meth ridden trailer parks of Arkansas do offer > a > > lot of > > amusement that their expense. > > Now wait, the poking fun is about "rednecks". I know of no law of > nature such that rednecks are restricted to the south or even only > exist when there is inbreeding. Heck, I've even known European > rednecks! Ayup. Up across the river from me, over yonder in Vermont, their Civil Unions law has legalized incestuous relationships entirely, with all the financial advantages of being married straight or unrelated gay partners... (don't believe me? read the law, they had to write it that way to comply with the equal protection clause....) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian at posthuman.com Tue Jul 6 23:15:11 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:15:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <40EB327F.7050602@posthuman.com> paul.bridger wrote: > BillK wrote: > > In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes involving > > SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. > > So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. > > ...but SUVs and pickups (higher mass vehicles) have more accidents. > > Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable to > assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying that > SUV drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher > survivability. > Go back and re-read what BillK quoted. The 65/59% figures are for the percentage of single-vehicle crashes. So SUVs/Pickups tend to have accidents involving only themselves moreso than cars do. Those figures don't talk at all about which type of vehicle has more accidents in total. So I don't know how many accidents each type of vehicle initiates, but anyway it isn't really relevant to the discussion of how to survive driving. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:30:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <006301c46112$3a2c8bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040706233000.55096.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > It wasn't recent, but I've made my views about the use of the term > "rednecks" before. Many people here pooh-poohed me. But I'll say it > again, for the record. I find the term "redneck" both racist and > abhorrently classist (not to mention "jobist"). In my library I > have a book from the early 1941s filled with jokes about Asians, > blacks, Jews, etc. - each group > getting its very own chapter of jokes. Ugly stuff, but not unlike > the jokes about "rednecks" here. > > One of the meanings of "transhumanism" is that it's a "philosophy ... > favoring the use of certain technologies to improve the human > condition beyond the constraints of biological evolution." > IMHO we can do a lot to > improve the human condition now by resisting making fun of a certain > class and "race" of people. Ah, Olga, the problem with your noble sentiments is that they are too noble. Try'n tell this tripe to a redneck, and they'll laugh at you, they already laugh at it when well intentioned folks like yourself start talkin' about the need for ebonics and bilingual education and why we shouldn't profile arabs n' other muslims when almost all terrorists are such. We ain't ignunt, we'ze just folks, salt of the earth, and the common sense of simple folks is just over the heads of those who try their whole lives to be as sophisticated as possible. Confucius, in his wisdom, declared the simple peasant farmer as being of the highest station in chinese society, while merchants and city intellectuals are of the lowest. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:34:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EB327F.7050602@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20040706233417.26049.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Go back and re-read what BillK quoted. The 65/59% figures are for the > percentage of single-vehicle crashes. So SUVs/Pickups tend to have > accidents involving only themselves moreso than cars do. Those > figures > don't talk at all about which type of vehicle has more accidents in > total. > > So I don't know how many accidents each type of vehicle initiates, > but anyway it isn't really relevant to the discussion of how to > survive driving. Brian is right on here. The known rule of 4wd explains the prevalence of single vehicle accidents by SUVs: "4wd will get you out of more situations that you normally wouldn't get out of, but it will get you into more situations you normally wouldn't get into." This is due to the excessive driver confidence one gains with 4wd, typically in inclement weather and road conditions that 2wd vehicles will shy at... Most drivers (or travellers, more properly, if you aren't getting paid to use the SUV) learn this lesson once. Of course, it helps to have the common sense typical of being a redneck.... ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Jul 6 23:52:53 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:52:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist Message-ID: <1089157973.7359@whirlwind.he.net> paul.bridger wrote: > BillK wrote: > > In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes involving > > SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. > > So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. > > ...but SUVs and pickups (higher mass vehicles) have more accidents. > > Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable to > assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying that SUV > drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher survivability. Absurd. What makes you think SUVs "cause" more single car accidents? Flawed reasoning in an attempt to support your prejudices. Correlation is not causation. And there is a really obvious reason why the statistics probably look this way. The percentage of the vehicles sold which are SUVs and pickups varies greatly between regions depending greatly on need and environment. You will notice that in places that have substantial winters or more rural environments (a function of population distribution, not size), a much greater percentage of the population drive SUVs and pickups than in more suburban and temperate climates. Depending on where you drive, what you do, and at what time of day you do it, you may have difficulty getting around in a Honda Civic and it won't be remotely as safe as driving 4x4, all things being equal even if you ignore multi-vehicle collisions. If I lived in one of those places and could only have one vehicle, it would be an SUV or pickup. When I moved from balmy Silicon Valley to slightly more rural digs in Nevada, my insurance rates increased, due entirely to increased environmental hazards of driving in Nevada. In winter, I usually drove my 4x4 SUV when it was below freezing because it was a much safer vehicle in winter road conditions than my expensive Euro sedan. As did everyone else. And the biggest hazards for all these SUV and pickup driving folks was either snow/ice or hitting one of the many large animals that intermittently decide to run in front of your vehicle (something having a large vehicle definitely helps with), neither of which happens in Silicon Valley. And all of which are single vehicle accidents. Does this mean that SUVs and pickups are inherently less safe? No, it means that people choose to drive SUVs and pickups in environments that are inherently less safe because SUVs and pickups are inherently safer in those environments. As an example, look at the spectacular carnage of animals and vehicles on the road to Burning Man in Nevada sometime, almost all Californians who have no experience with road hazards outside of other vehicles. SUVs and pickups are not distributed evenly in the population. People that need them and which will benefit most from the safety features they offer will also be more likely to buy them. In short, people drive SUVs and pickups in places where environmental conditions make it far more probable that single vehicle accidents will occur precisely because these vehicles are safer when faced with those environmental hazards. Switching everyone in those places would make them LESS SAFE, not more safe. The entire country doesn't have road conditions like your little corner of suburbia. I buy my vehicles to match local driving conditions (currently Silicon Valley, so a small commuter car), and as far as I've been able to tell in my travels, so does the rest of the population on average. j. andrew rogers From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Wed Jul 7 01:49:40 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:49:40 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EB327F.7050602@posthuman.com> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> <40EB327F.7050602@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <40EB56B4.3010908@paradise.net.nz> Brian Atkins wrote: > paul.bridger wrote: >> BillK wrote: >> > In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes >> involving >> > SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. >> > So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. >> >> ...but SUVs and pickups (higher mass vehicles) have more accidents. >> >> Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable >> to assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying >> that SUV drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher >> survivability. >> > Go back and re-read what BillK quoted. The 65/59% figures are for the > percentage of single-vehicle crashes. So SUVs/Pickups tend to have > accidents involving only themselves moreso than cars do. Those figures > don't talk at all about which type of vehicle has more accidents in total. Ah yes, I was reading the figure as "65/59% of single vehicle crashes involve SUVs/pickups", which would imply more accidents for these types of vehicles. Thanks. From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 04:29:10 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:29:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <1089157973.7359@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <004301c463da$f6349cc0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > > BillK wrote: ... > Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's > reasonable to assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How > annoying that SUV drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher > survivability. This line of reasoning in tenuous indeed, and I would dispute it, but let us assume it true for the sake of argument. Newton has postulated that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. My conjecture that for every government action there are unintended consequences. Those members of government who are convinced that taxes must be increased have realized that this is best accomplished by making cuts in government spending in those areas which cause the most pain to the most voters. This area is road repair. Not schools, not environmental protection, not welfare, it is in road repair. Before dismissing this notion as the ranting of some right-wing ditto-head, consider that the evidence was thrust upon us in the form of an open microphone in a meeting of Taxifornia state legislators. They plotted against the proletariat by suggesting the way to get a supermajority to vote to raise taxes would be to cut severely the budget for road repair. Fortunately, a microphone was inadvertently left on, the conversation was broadcast throughout the capital building, recorded for all posterity, the reprehensible perps were caught, and their political careers will presumably end this fall. They hate it when that happens. {8^D When roads are neglected and allowed to get rough, the unintended consequence is an explosion of the popularity of off-road vehicles: SUVs, pickups, jeeps, humvees, bigger more rugged machines that can better tolerate the rougher surfaces. There is a reduced popularity of the smaller gas-sipping buggies with their lower profile tires and shorter suspension travel. If BillK's argument is correct, the secondary unintended consequence is that more proles are slain in collisions with oversized ORVs, further shifting public choice towards ever-larger vehicles. Conclusions: Roads *are* public transit. Good roads save lives. Build them smooth, wide, long, and plentiful. spike From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jul 7 05:24:38 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:24:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redneck Transhumanists References: <20040706233000.55096.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a101c463e2$b3fc4670$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > Ah, Olga, the problem with your noble sentiments is that they are too > noble. Try'n tell this tripe to a redneck, and they'll laugh at you, > they already laugh at it when well intentioned folks like yourself > start talkin' about the need for ebonics and bilingual education and > why we shouldn't profile arabs n' other muslims when almost all > terrorists are such. Michael, please ... sometimes you're so out to lunch. Some years ago I actually signed a petition *against* bilingual education (this got me on some Republican mailing lists long ago - which mailings I still get to this day, hehehe). Having learned 4 languages by the time I was 9 years old made me a true believer in the ability of children to learn languages. (Ahh, but once those children hit adolescence - when it comes to learning a new language - all is lost. Those plucky grey cells turn into a block of grey cement.) As to the rest of that paragraph you've written, I won't even dignify it by responding ... Olga From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Wed Jul 7 05:30:16 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:30:16 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <004301c463da$f6349cc0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <004301c463da$f6349cc0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40EB8A68.4050003@paradise.net.nz> Just to be clear: this was my tenuous reasoning, not BillK's. Very amusing conspiracy anecdote. Or rather, amusingly told. Were you saying that the quality of *urban* roads influences the kind of vehicles people drive? I would find that quite surprising. A road would have to be pretty terrible to cause discomfort to the occupants of a normal car. Spike wrote: >>>BillK wrote: > > ... > >> Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's >>reasonable to assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How >>annoying that SUV drivers should cause more accidents, and then have > > This line of reasoning in tenuous indeed > ... > suspension travel. If BillK's argument is correct, the secondary From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 05:50:58 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:50:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EB8A68.4050003@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > paul.bridger: > > > Just to be clear: this was my tenuous reasoning, not BillK's. Oh, ok thanks Paul. {8-] > Very amusing conspiracy anecdote. Or rather, amusingly told. You are too kind. {8-] > Were you saying that the quality of *urban* roads influences > the kind of vehicles people drive? I would find that quite surprising. A > road would have to be pretty terrible to cause discomfort to the occupants of > a normal car. Ja, the urban roads are those that are critical to the outcomes of elections, for that is where the votes drive. My notions were based upon a bargain BMW I recently passed up. The owner was honest enough to admit that he had ruined three wheels in the past 4 years. This car uses expensive low-profile tires and even more expensive magnesium rims, so one good pothole might cost ya 400 bucks, owwwwww. Being as this is the Sillyclone Valley, there are plenty of these BMWs running around, and a single pothole can cause many thousands of dollars worth of damage each day it is allowed to exist. Soooo... it is allowed to exist. No, I am not kidding, note face --> {8-| Even the most hardcore libertarian can see that it would be a bargain to use public funds to repair the hole. But if the government raises taxes then still refuses to resurface the roads, the best course of action is for the frustrated masses to buy the biggest rudest ugliest jacked up humvee available, then go out gleefully looking for holes to run over (muaaahahahahahahahaaaa, take THAT, you hole!). A combination of testosterone and city living really does do that to an otherwise normal mind. Hey, it worked on me. {8-] spike From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Wed Jul 7 07:51:32 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:51:32 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] An Open Letter to the Scientific Community. In-Reply-To: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> References: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Everitt Mickey wrote: >While browsing thru some stuff at a truck stop the other day I came >across this. > >[...] > >Halton Arp, Max-Planck-Institute Fur Astrophysik (Germany) > >I personally never heard of none of them guys.....probably a bunch of >cranks....as are the institutions they represent...why...not a single >truck drivers school amongst the lot..... Halton Arp is a famous astronomer, who worked a lot on non-cosmological redshift theories, especially on quasar, that would probably invalidate the big bang theory. His articles has been largely ignored, but many of his questions have never been answered, and if you read his articles and books he makes the case quite compelling. Alfio From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 08:54:32 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:54:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:50:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Even the most hardcore libertarian can see that it would > be a bargain to use public funds to repair the hole. But > if the government raises taxes then still refuses to > resurface the roads, the best course of action is for the > frustrated masses to buy the biggest rudest ugliest jacked up > humvee available, then go out gleefully looking for holes > to run over (muaaahahahahahahahaaaa, take THAT, you hole!). > It seems to me that blaming bad weather and bad roads for the poor accident record of SUVs is stretching the point a bit. Car drivers take more care in bad weather. SUVs may make drivers over-confident and too reckless in bad weather. But the big problem with SUVs seems to be roll-overs. >From -- Rollover crashes are the leading cause of fatalities in SUVs. Rollovers are among the most dangerous types of vehicle crashes because of the high incidence of occupant ejection and head injuries. SUVs are more prone to rollover than other vehicle types, due to their higher ground clearance and narrow width, which tend to make these vehicles top-heavy and more likely to roll over in crashes. (NHTSA) In single vehicle crashes, 79 percent of the fatalities among SUV occupants involve rollover. Single-vehicle rollover crashes produced more than 50 percent of all occupant deaths in SUVs compared to 34 percent in pickup trucks and 19 percent in cars. (IIHS) Lighter SUVs are disproportionately involved in fatal rollover crashes, with a rate that is more than 6 times as high as that in the largest cars. (IIHS) For heavier SUVs, those weighing more than 5,000 pounds, nearly 4 out of every 5 occupant crash deaths (78 percent) occur in single-vehicle rollovers. (NHTSA) In 2001, 35 percent of all SUVs involved in fatal crashes experienced a rollover. The second most rollover prone vehicles were pickup trucks (25 percent), followed by vans (19 percent) and, finally, passenger cars (16 percent). (NHTSA) A disproportionately high level of rollover related fatalities characterizes SUV crashes - the SUV is the only vehicle type in which the number of occupant deaths in rollovers exceeds the number of occupant deaths in non-rollover crashes. In 2002, almost two-thirds of occupant fatalities in SUV crashes occurred in rollovers. (NHTSA) BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 10:34:51 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [NEWS] BOOK REVIEW: Dreamer, by Richard L. Miller Message-ID: <20040707103451.54377.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> I just finished reading Dreamer, by Richard L. Miller. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966941411/qid%3D1089193993/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-6648234-8828067 I have been strongly impressed by Dreamer and wish to recommend it to everyone. Funded by some government agency, a clinic recruits volunteers for a "total recall" memory retrieval project. With the help of hypnosis and suitable technology patients are able to travel within their own memories and re-experience their past in all detail. The main character Mike is in advertising and participates in the project hoping to retrieve useful memories of the sixties' look-and-feel. Of course, he becomes more and more involved with his own past friends and love stories. Miller's accounts of Mike's trips to the past are very good visual descriptions of America in the sixties. Of course Mike and his fellow patients start by experiencing the past as passive observers (like watching a movie), but at some point things become more complex, with questions on the deep structure of reality and hints at "many-worlds"-like (Everett) interpretations of quantum physics. Surprisingly for a book with a lot of challenging intellectual content, Dreamer is very well written and has believable characters in the past and in the present. Besides foundational work in quantum physics Miller acknowledges a debt to Ernest R. Hilgard's psychology book "Divided Consciousness". From his review on the book's Amazon site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471396028/qid=1089194396/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6648234-8828067?v=glance&s=books "I liked Hilgard's Divided Consciousness so much I based a novel (Dreamer) on the research. Divided Consciousness is the only psychology book you will read that will give you chills. It is *that* good. In fact, I use it as a test for books on "quantum consciousness" and the like. If the index doesn't include Hilgard or "hidden observer" then I don't buy the book. Here's why: E.I. Hilgard discovered what may be one of the most important aspects of human consciousness--the hidden observer phenomenon. It appears only during deep hypnosis--at +50 or +60 level--where time and space are perceived (by the subject) as one. Hilgard thought the hidden observer performed an executive function for the mind--essentially organizing the various personalities according to task (suppose you're driving down the road, listening to the radio, thinking about work and a deer jumps into the highway ahead of you--who is it that causes you to put your foot on the brake?) Several psychologists have discussed "multiminds" in books, but the hard fact is, the hidden observer phenomenon has never really been studied thoroughly. It's like talking about the company organization without ever mentioning the CEO--or IT group. Nor has the hidden observer been studied vis a vis any other psychological phenomenon. Read this book and you'll want to send it to researchers like Rupert Sheldrake, or Brenda Dunne at the Princeton Anomalies(PEAR)Lab. The hidden observer may even explain an annoying near-death study phenomena--the fact that the life review is occasionally seen from a third person point of view. In other words, if you're on the stage acting out your life, who's the guy in the audience with the camera? There really has been only one researcher, Finnish psychologist Reima Kampmann, who has explored the hidden observer phenomenon. *Supposedly* he asked a sample of subjects under hypnosis just who the hidden observer really was--the replies were uniformly this: "I am soul." There are hundreds of books on the subject of consciousness, but "Divided Consciousness" is the one you should read first. It will change the way you think." From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 12:06:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:36:13 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets Message-ID: <710b78fc0407070506628ce47f@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone here tried Google Sets? It'll freak you out. Go here... http://labs.google.com/sets Then type in -foot -meter -fortnight -fathom and click "Large Set". You'll see google's best guess at an intelligent set containing the items you specified (in this case, units of measurement). Cool? Ok, now try the following... - Eugen Leitl - Eliezer Yudkowsky - Anders Sandberg and see what you get... -- Emlyn From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 7 12:07:08 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:07:08 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> <40EADFC3.9090404@posthuman.com> <40EB20CC.7000401@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <20040707120708.GM1141@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 09:59:40AM +1200, paul.bridger wrote: > Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable to > assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying that SUV > drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher survivability. Active armor and car-mounted RPGs might solve at least some of such problems... -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 12:50:25 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:50:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elderly crucial to evolutionary success of humans Message-ID: Senior citizens played an important role in the dramatic spread of human civilization some 30,000 years ago, a study of the human fossil record has shown. Caspari and Lee found a five-fold increase the number of individuals surviving into old age in the Early Upper Palaeolithic period - around 30,000 years ago. This coincides with an explosive population growth of modern humans and the spread of archaeological artifacts that suggest the development of more complex social organization. Anthropologists have long suspected that older people may have played an important role in the development of early human societies by providing extra care for children, helping to accumulate useful information and strengthening kinship bonds. Caspari believes that older people may have giving modern humans an evolutionary edge. "There has been a lot of speculation about what gave modern humans their evolutionary advantage," Caspari said. "This research provides a simple explanation for which there is now concrete evidence: modern humans were older and wiser." ---------- So the whole of our modern civilization can be put down to crotchety old folk saying "You really don't want to do that" to long-haired youngsters wearing flares and playing with matches. :) Better be nice to the oldies. Maybe they do talk sense sometimes. BillK From amara at amara.com Wed Jul 7 14:03:16 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:03:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Meanwhile: An overdue ode to Pablo Neruda Message-ID: http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=528174.html Meanwhile: An overdue ode to Pablo Neruda Carolyn Curiel NYT Wednesday, July 07, 2004 NEW YORK That Pablo Neruda was the greatest poet of the last century is beyond argument in much of South America. Certainly he ranks with the most prolific. Among his hundreds of works, there are sonnets, odes, epics and something greater: longevity. Three decades after his death, Neruda, who would have been 100 years old next Monday, is again heating up the world with his metaphors. Devotees from New Delhi to Santiago, in his native Chile, are gathering for breathless readings and deeper discussions of this complicated man, a sensual communist who loved nature almost as much as he loved women, food and wine. A 1971 Nobel laureate, he was also an ambassador and a politician who sat in the Senate and ran for president. In his teens he took a pen name drawn from the Czech writer, Jan Neruda. The lyrical carnality of his second book of poetry, "Veinte Poemas de Amor y una Cancion Desesperada" ("Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair"), brought him fame by the age of 20. But for Neruda, love and beauty vied for attention with social justice. The poet's outspoken politics made him unwelcome in his native country for a time, a legacy the current government of Chile hopes to bury with praise. Neruda fled Chile in 1948 and spent years in exile after he criticized President Gabriel Gonz?lez Videla's turn to the right in the late 1940s. It was in this period that he produced his epic "Canto General," a loving look at South America's geography and people, ranging from "The Heights of Machu Picchu" to the lows of imperialism. Neruda eludes easy categorization. His themes of personal and political liberation may have echoed Walt Whitman, William Blake and Charles Baudelaire. But his surreal imagery and energy, which animated topics as mundane as his "Ode to the Onion," were all his own. Neruda's timeless musings on lost love and the truths of the human heart might alone prompt worldwide remembrance. [...] ------------------------------------ The Word Pablo Neruda Full Powers 1962 The word was born in the blood, it grew in the dark body, pulsing, and took flight with the lips and mouth. Farther away and nearer, still, still it came from dead fathers and from wandering races, from territories that had become stone, that had tired of their poor tribes, because when grief set out on the road the people went and arrived and united new land and water to sow their word once again. And that's why the inheritance is this: this is the air that connects us with the buried man and the dawn of new beings that haven't yet arisen. Still the atmosphere trembles with the first word produced with panic and groaning. It emerged from the darkness and even now there is no thunder that thunders with the iron sound of that word, the first word uttered: perhaps it was just a whisper, a raindrop, but its cascade still falls and falls. Later on, meaning fills the word. It stayed pregnant and was filled with lives, everything was births and sounds: affirmation, clarity, strength, negation, destruction, death: the name took on all the powers ?v and combined existence with essence in its electric beauty. Human word, syllable, flank of long light and hard silver, hereditary goblet that receives the communications of the blood: it is here that silence was formed by the whole of the human word and not to speak is to die among beings: language extends out to the hair, the mouth speaks without moving the lips: suddenly the eyes are words. I take the word and move through it, as if it were only a human form, its lines delight me and I sail in each resonance of language: I utter and I am and across the boundary of words, without speaking, I approach silence. I drink to the word, raising a word or crystalline cup, in it I drink the wine of language or unfathomable water, maternal source of all words, and cup and water and wine give rise to my song because the name is origin and green life: it is blood, the blood that expresses its substance, and thus its unrolling is prepared: words give crystal to the crystal, blood to the blood, and give life to life. -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." --Anais Nin From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 13:05:31 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:05:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist Message-ID: Your assumptions are slightly incorrect. If you look at growth of SUV sales they include southern and urban areas as well as rural northern climes. This article states that cars account for only 44% of all auto sales. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4147619/ Anectdotally, I've heard the "I need an SUV" excuse a lot, but that doesn't explain how a single person in a Yukon blocks my view in Midtown Atlanta. I think a decent awd station wagon or sedan (see subaru, audi) will get you around just as well as a traditional 4x4 truck but it won't consume as much fuel, won't obstruct sight, won't roll over as much and have a higher safety rating. Again this is anectdotal, but if you compare these stats I think you'll find that SUVs aren't required in many situation people claim. BAL >From: "J. Andrew Rogers" >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist >Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:52:53 -0700 > >paul.bridger wrote: > > BillK wrote: > > > In contrast, single-vehicle crashes represented 65% of crashes >involving > > > SUVs and 59% of crashes involving pickups. > > > So SUVs and pickups seem to have a tendency to self-destruct. > > > > ...but SUVs and pickups (higher mass vehicles) have more accidents. > > > > Given that SUVs etc. cause more single car accidents, it's reasonable to > > assume they cause more multiple car accidents, too. How annoying that >SUV > > drivers should cause more accidents, and then have higher survivability. > > >Absurd. What makes you think SUVs "cause" more single car accidents? >Flawed reasoning in an attempt to support your prejudices. > >Correlation is not causation. And there is a really obvious reason why >the statistics probably look this way. > >The percentage of the vehicles sold which are SUVs and pickups varies >greatly between regions depending greatly on need and environment. You >will notice that in places that have substantial winters or more rural >environments (a function of population distribution, not size), a much >greater percentage of the population drive SUVs and pickups than in more >suburban and temperate climates. Depending on where you drive, what you >do, and at what time of day you do it, you may have difficulty getting >around in a Honda Civic and it won't be remotely as safe as driving 4x4, >all things being equal even if you ignore multi-vehicle collisions. If >I lived in one of those places and could only have one vehicle, it would >be an SUV or pickup. > >When I moved from balmy Silicon Valley to slightly more rural digs in >Nevada, my insurance rates increased, due entirely to increased >environmental hazards of driving in Nevada. In winter, I usually drove >my 4x4 SUV when it was below freezing because it was a much safer >vehicle in winter road conditions than my expensive Euro sedan. As did >everyone else. And the biggest hazards for all these SUV and pickup >driving folks was either snow/ice or hitting one of the many large >animals that intermittently decide to run in front of your vehicle >(something having a large vehicle definitely helps with), neither of >which happens in Silicon Valley. And all of which are single vehicle >accidents. Does this mean that SUVs and pickups are inherently less >safe? No, it means that people choose to drive SUVs and pickups in >environments that are inherently less safe because SUVs and pickups are >inherently safer in those environments. As an example, look at the >spectacular carnage of animals and vehicles on the road to Burning Man >in Nevada sometime, almost all Californians who have no experience with >road hazards outside of other vehicles. > >SUVs and pickups are not distributed evenly in the population. People >that need them and which will benefit most from the safety features they >offer will also be more likely to buy them. > >In short, people drive SUVs and pickups in places where environmental >conditions make it far more probable that single vehicle accidents will >occur precisely because these vehicles are safer when faced with those >environmental hazards. Switching everyone in those places would make >them LESS SAFE, not more safe. The entire country doesn't have road >conditions like your little corner of suburbia. I buy my vehicles to >match local driving conditions (currently Silicon Valley, so a small >commuter car), and as far as I've been able to tell in my travels, so >does the rest of the population on average. > >j. andrew rogers > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jul 7 12:54:10 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:54:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elderly crucial to evolutionary success of humans References: Message-ID: <40EBF272.641E691A@sasktel.net> Similarly, people who can live beyond the traditional 3 score and ten well into the second century in good, productive body and mind health will deliver a different world view than those who acquiesce to degeneration and death between decades 6 and 9. The first thought I have is a divergence from a simple cosmetic anti-aging popularity in favor of substantial physical results based medical services economy. BillK wrote: > > > Senior citizens played an important role in the dramatic spread of human > civilization some 30,000 years ago, a study of the human fossil record > has shown. > Caspari and Lee found a five-fold increase the number of individuals > surviving into old age in the Early Upper Palaeolithic period - around > 30,000 years ago. This coincides with an explosive population growth of > modern humans and the spread of archaeological artifacts that suggest > the development of more complex social organization. > Anthropologists have long suspected that older people may have played an > important role in the development of early human societies by providing > extra care for children, helping to accumulate useful information and > strengthening kinship bonds. > Caspari believes that older people may have giving modern humans an > evolutionary edge. "There has been a lot of speculation about what gave > modern humans their evolutionary advantage," Caspari said. "This > research provides a simple explanation for which there is now concrete > evidence: modern humans were older and wiser." > > ---------- > > So the whole of our modern civilization can be put down to crotchety old > folk saying "You really don't want to do that" to long-haired youngsters > wearing flares and playing with matches. :) > > Better be nice to the oldies. Maybe they do talk sense sometimes. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 7 14:18:26 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Elderly crucial to evolutionary success of humans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707141826.70530.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > So the whole of our modern civilization can be put > down to crotchety old > folk saying "You really don't want to do that" to > long-haired youngsters > wearing flares and playing with matches. :) Actually, this study's definition of "old" was but 30 years old - well within childbearing years. (Quite a number of people these days wait that long or longer to have their first child, but that's a different story.) So it could be that they just had that much longer to reproduce. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 14:19:04 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040707141904.18234.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > paul.bridger: > > > > > > Just to be clear: this was my tenuous reasoning, not BillK's. > > Oh, ok thanks Paul. {8-] > > > Very amusing conspiracy anecdote. Or rather, amusingly told. > > You are too kind. {8-] I have to agree with spike. Gummint isn't in the business of solving problems, it is in the business of separating taxes from taxpayer, personal liberties from citizen, for the least squawk while helping special interest groups (profit or not for profit) drum up business. Another example is that its been quantitatively proven that vehicle inspections do not increase highway safety one iota (South Dakota, for example, requires no inspections yet has no measurable differences in accident rates), yet most people are required to pay local "inspection stations" $15-$50 for the privilege of being charged an additional $300-$500 every year for 'repairs' which in many cases are not needed. There are similar scams for windshield repair, where your windshield is shatterproof and poses no danger to you if it is cracked (the crack is typically on the outside layer, not the inside one, thus no risk to you of glass splinters), yet the State declares that a hairline crack is going to obstruct your view, where the 2-5" wide pillars on either side of the windshield and behind your door are merely 'blind spots' which are your responsibility to see around/over/through. Blind spots are the second biggest cause of in-traffic accidents (behind driver distraction) but I've never heard of a person in an accident because the crack in their windshield obstructed their view of something. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 14:26:33 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707142633.36686.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:50:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > > It seems to me that blaming bad weather and bad roads for the poor > accident record of SUVs is stretching the point a bit. > > Car drivers take more care in bad weather. SUVs may make drivers > over-confident and too reckless in bad weather. > > But the big problem with SUVs seems to be roll-overs. Yes, but again, this is a driver problem, not a vehicle problem. Drivers used to sitting with their butts less than 4" from the pavement consider much higher G's on cornering and skidding to be acceptable. When they get into an SUV, they don't realize that a 1 G cornering is going to feel like a lot less when they are a foot or more in the air, so they are surprised when their vehicle starts to roll over (the higher center of gravity of the vehicle itself is just one thing, but the driver should also be aware of this as well). This is especially considering that the Gs are generally felt in the ears, which are reclined in econoboxes and sports coupes, but are raised and upright in SUVs. This all being said, I've seen a LOT more sports coupes sitting atop highway snow banks than I've seen SUVs rolled over any time of year. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 7 14:35:36 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:35:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407070506628ce47f@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0407070506628ce47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707093330.01cf51f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> How did I get in a small set with Spider Robinson? And *Don Winslow*? Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 15:08:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407070506628ce47f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040707150823.2538.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> It claims no sets for Free State Project. Seems pretty useless to me... --- Emlyn wrote: > Has anyone here tried Google Sets? It'll freak you out. > > Go here... > http://labs.google.com/sets > > Then type in > -foot > -meter > -fortnight > -fathom > > and click "Large Set". You'll see google's best guess at an > intelligent set containing the items you specified (in this case, > units of measurement). > > Cool? Ok, now try the following... > - Eugen Leitl > - Eliezer Yudkowsky > - Anders Sandberg > > and see what you get... > > -- > Emlyn > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 7 16:31:42 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707150823.2538.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040707163142.71011.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > It claims no sets for Free State Project. Seems > pretty useless to me... You have to give it multiple items. Just entering "Adrian Tymes", for instance, gives a couple telecom researchers I've never heard of before, so a useless "set". From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:03:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707163142.71011.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP leaders, my own name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems that Google Sets is trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps a programmer bias? --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > It claims no sets for Free State Project. Seems > > pretty useless to me... > > You have to give it multiple items. Just entering > "Adrian Tymes", for instance, gives a couple telecom > researchers I've never heard of before, so a useless > "set". > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 7 17:32:29 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:32:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040707163142.71011.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707122906.01c1d498@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:03 AM 7/7/2004 -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote: >Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP leaders, my own >name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems that Google Sets is >trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps a programmer bias? No, it's a colossal global conspiracy. A terrible thing, but it's consistent with those other conspiracies to obliterate Yudkowsky, Leitl and Sandberg. They only left me in ample play as a foil, a piece of cunning misdirection, and (rather cruelly, I thought) in order to arouse suspicion of my motives in the alert. Damien Broderick From scerir at libero.it Wed Jul 7 19:31:45 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:31:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets References: <710b78fc0407070506628ce47f@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040707093330.01cf51f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003a01c46459$0a7f2c30$31bd1b97@administxl09yj> > How did I get in a small set with Spider Robinson? > Damien Broderick We live in a virtual reality, or in a real virtuality, or ... Well you can amuse yourself by going to this real website! http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/index.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 7 19:40:26 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040707194026.50008.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP > leaders, my own > name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems > that Google Sets is > trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps > a programmer bias? Unlikely. FSP is not as well known (and thus well documented in places Google can find) as, say, ExI. From cphoenix at CRNano.org Wed Jul 7 19:49:33 2004 From: cphoenix at CRNano.org (Chris Phoenix) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:49:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Elderly crucial to evolutionary success of humans In-Reply-To: <200407071800.i67I0Fd05561@tick.javien.com> References: <200407071800.i67I0Fd05561@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <40EC53CD.7050405@CRNano.org> BillK wrote: > > > Senior citizens played an important role in the dramatic spread of human > civilization some 30,000 years ago, a study of the human fossil record > has shown. Go to the blackboard and write 500 times: Correlation does not imply causation. It seems quite plausible that something else caused the increase in population--perhaps the higher-tech lifestyle implied by the increase in artifacts--and that the generally better living conditions allowed old people to live longer. Chris -- Chris Phoenix cphoenix at CRNano.org Director of Research Center for Responsible Nanotechnology http://CRNano.org From cphoenix at CRNano.org Wed Jul 7 20:09:40 2004 From: cphoenix at CRNano.org (Chris Phoenix) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:09:40 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <200407071800.i67I0Fd05561@tick.javien.com> References: <200407071800.i67I0Fd05561@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <40EC5884.6070906@CRNano.org> Mike Lorrey wrote: > Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP leaders, my own > name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems that Google Sets is > trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps a programmer bias? > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > >>> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >>>> > It claims no sets for Free State Project. Seems >>>> > pretty useless to me... >> >>> >>> You have to give it multiple items. Just entering >>> "Adrian Tymes", for instance, gives a couple telecom >>> researchers I've never heard of before, so a useless >>> "set". I just tried various names associated with molecular manufacturing. I was unable to find any combination of three names that would return a non-empty set. I just tried "Dick Cheney", "Paul Wolfowitz", and "George Bush". I got back a small and uninteresting set: Dick Cheney George Bush Al Gore I don't think it's a matter of giving it multiple items. Giving it the original three names one at a time: Eugen Leitl, Eliezer Yudkowsky, Anders Sandberg: it gives long and overlapping lists for Eugen and Anders, and a rather shorter list for Eliezer. Interestingly, "Chris Phoenix" alone returns the empty set, but I influenced Eric Drexler's set. "Eric Drexler" alone returns: Eric Drexler Marvin Minsky William H Calvin "Chris Phoenix" and "Eric Drexler" returns the same list with one notable difference: Eric Drexler Cog the humanoid robot William H Calvin Marvin Minsky Chris -- Chris Phoenix cphoenix at CRNano.org Director of Research Center for Responsible Nanotechnology http://CRNano.org From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:47:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707194026.50008.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040707204702.55726.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP > > leaders, my own > > name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems > > that Google Sets is > > trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps > > a programmer bias? > > Unlikely. FSP is not as well known (and thus well > documented in places Google can find) as, say, ExI. I'd have to disagree on that. We've gotten WAY more press coverage in the last year than ExI ever has. Google agrees, with 28,100 hits for extropy (the term in general) while "Free State Project" gets 42,300 hits. "Extropy Institute" specifically only gets 5,870 hits on Google. So, the FSP is more than seven times more widely known of according to Google than ExI. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:54:33 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] dancing and politics in the sports world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707205433.57625.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > > the music STOPPED! > > The dance floor was frozen with arms outstretched and feet glued > midstep. > > The German polizia were at the front door. The time was 15 minutes > after 12-midnight. A rule in the neighborhood of that restaurant is > that loud music must stop at 12-midnight. Some of the neighbors > called > the police, I suppose, and so then the police came to tell the > musicians to stop. > > That was the end of the party! What a way to stop a dance .... What? The Germans didn't send some Italians to handle the Greeks? Perhaps they felt they'd already learned that lesson once... ;) Ghu forbid that some Greeks are allowed to have fun... (saw "Captain Correlli's Mandolin" the other night...) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Jul 7 22:30:52 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:30:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707204702.55726.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (7/7/04 13:47) Mike Lorrey wrote: >I'd have to disagree on that. We've gotten WAY more press coverage in >the last year than ExI ever has. Google agrees, with 28,100 hits for >extropy (the term in general) while "Free State Project" gets 42,300 >hits. "Extropy Institute" specifically only gets 5,870 hits on Google. >So, the FSP is more than seven times more widely known of according to >Google than ExI. But you don't know how high the quality of those "hits" is. And, realistically, neither group is exactly rolling in lots of mainstream coverage. With the FSP specifically, there seem to be very few sites that name lots of names and a lot of sites that refer to the group as "those farseeing people" or "those damned nutters." Etc. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 00:16:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708001623.17082.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (7/7/04 13:47) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >I'd have to disagree on that. We've gotten WAY more press coverage > in > >the last year than ExI ever has. Google agrees, with 28,100 hits for > >extropy (the term in general) while "Free State Project" gets 42,300 > >hits. "Extropy Institute" specifically only gets 5,870 hits on > Google. > >So, the FSP is more than seven times more widely known of according > to > >Google than ExI. > > > But you don't know how high the quality of those "hits" is. And, > realistically, neither group is exactly rolling in lots of mainstream > coverage. With the FSP specifically, there seem to be very few sites > that name lots of names and a lot of sites that refer to the group as > "those farseeing people" or "those damned nutters." Etc. Okay, lets just go by media coverage: http://www.freestateproject.org/news/media_archive/index.jsp This page lists just some of the media coverage about the FSP. It ignores a bit of the most recent coverage, including my interview on NH Public Radio's "The Exchange". Beyond regional and national newspaper articles on a daily or weekly basis, television pieces monthly, there have been multiple articles in Liberty magazine, Reason Magazine, and The Libertarian Enterprise even in individual issues. We've been intimately involved in some non-FSP national news pieces, including the secession of Killington, Vermont in March, at which yours truly was present and presented NH and Gadsden flags to the Killington Town Manager. We've brought national attention to breaches of civil rights including the strip searching of 7th graders by police in a dawn school raid in the Carolinas, the arrest of a NH gun owner in Ohio, among others. ?f the Free State Project hits, 40,100 have been updated in the last 3 months. I myself have been interviewed in the last 8 months by: The New York Times The New York Post Newsday The Boston Globe The Valley News The Manchester Union Leader The Nashua Telegraph The Concord Monitor The Terry Dudley Show on WGXL, Lebanon, NH The Exchange with Laura Kinnoy, NHPR (1 hour in studio interview) LA Times Mercury News WMUR Channel 9 News WCAX Channel 3 News WBZ Channel 4 (Boston) News FOX News Channel CNN The Valley Spectator The Dartmouth Review Associated Press reporters on several occasions, including Kate McCann, Beverly Wang, among others. If you haven't noticed the FSP in the news, you haven't been paying attention. If you think its all "what nutters" coverage, you are wrong. The only organization that tried going that way was The Daily Show on Comedy Central. I turned em down. My friend Doug Stanhope (co-host of The Man Show) ran interference for me, and a number of other FSP membes they tried to con into a 'yokel' interview. We also have celebrity endorsements, from Doug Stanhope (comedian, co-host of The Man Show on Comedy Central and current host of Girls Gone Wild videos) to Penn & Teller, to Don Galloway (former Ironsides and soap star, who now writes columns for the Manchester Union Leader) as well as: Richard Boddie - writer, professor, lawyer, former LP Prez candidate William A. Dunn - Chairman of Reason Foundation Louis James - past President, Henry Hazlitt Foundation Hubert Jongen - Chairman, Libertarian International Aaron Russo - Former LP presidential candidate L. Neil Smith - SF writer Vin Suprynowicz - gun rights writer Walter Williams - pundit, commentator Claire Wolfe - pundit, blogger, gun rights activist Republican Liberty Caucus 11 state Libertarian parties John Stossel - ABC journalist Eric Raymond - author and software guru Former New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson Current NH Governor Craig Benson (founder and former Chairman of Cabletron) Neal Boortz - radio host Larry Pratt - Executive Director, Gun Owners of America Notable FSP Members Mike Badnarik, 2004 LP Presidential Candidate Richard Boddie Gary Nolan, 2004 LP Presidential Candidate hopeful Art Olivier, 2000 LP Vice-Presidential Candidate Vin Suprynowicz Brian Wilson, Libertarian Radio Talk Show Host and Author Claire Wolfe One thing I've discovered is the number of everyday reporters who are libertarians.... Now, by this point, you may think I'm bragging. No, I'm trying to prove a point I've been trying to make for more than a year on this list: Extropy Institute needs to get a lot more hip to media relations, and more imaginative about publicity and lobbying, than it currently is if it wants to maintain its relevance in todays world. I think by this point in time I've established the street cred to back up my words with reality. In a year the FSP has handed ExI its hat in the publicity department. The Pro-Actionary Principle is a start, but it needs to not stop there. ExI needs its members around the country to get a lot more active in promoting the principle. I've been talking about it with the NH state legislators I know, and they are all for it, as they despise the Precautionary Principle. In the next session in November we're going to try to get the Pro-Actionary Principle adopted as state policy for state legislation regarding technological development. I'd suggest that people on this list get involved in doing the same thing in your own states. Don't just lobby, you need to demonstrate. Demonstrations get in the news (of course, you need to send out press releases ahead of time). ExI can help on this by drafting model statutory language for legislators to take to their committee discussions. I'd also suggest that ExI, or Pro-Act, endorse the Free State Project and make a press release to that effect. Doing so will get you access to thousands of FSP activists around the country willing to push the PAP in their state legislatures. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jul 8 01:57:50 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:57:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jul04/0704far.html From eliasen at mindspring.com Thu Jul 8 03:46:08 2004 From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:46:08 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040708001623.17082.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040708001623.17082.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40ECC380.4000006@mindspring.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > Okay, lets just go by media coverage: > http://www.freestateproject.org/news/media_archive/index.jsp > > This page lists just some of the media coverage about the FSP. I thought that whenever somebody searched for "FSP" they were looking for information about Frink Server Pages: http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/fspdocs.html :) -- Alan Eliasen | "You cannot reason a person out of a eliasen at mindspring.com | position he did not reason himself http://futureboy.homeip.net/ | into in the first place." | --Jonathan Swift From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 07:15:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:45:16 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040707170335.20717.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0407080015122ea7c@mail.gmail.com> Lol Mike, do you think there is code in there to specifically screw up FSP? Geez, if google is out to get you, I'd start running right now... Emlyn On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:03:35 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Did it, done it, multiple times. Used names of FSP leaders, my own > name, and other libertarian organizations. Seems that Google Sets is > trying to will the FSP out of existence.... perhaps a programmer bias? > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > It claims no sets for Free State Project. Seems > > > pretty useless to me... > > > > You have to give it multiple items. Just entering > > "Adrian Tymes", for instance, gives a couple telecom > > researchers I've never heard of before, so a useless > > "set". > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 16:06:03 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:06:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist References: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Have any of the studies taken the increased passenger capacity of an SUV into consideration ? My Miata carries two people, so the most I could kill in a single vehicle crash is two. Many SUVs can kill up to 8 people in a single-vehicle crash. A collision between the two could kill up to 16. Does anyone know what the average passenger count is in an SUV? ----- Original Message ----- From: "BillK" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:50:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > Even the most hardcore libertarian can see that it would > > be a bargain to use public funds to repair the hole. But > > if the government raises taxes then still refuses to > > resurface the roads, the best course of action is for the > > frustrated masses to buy the biggest rudest ugliest jacked up > > humvee available, then go out gleefully looking for holes > > to run over (muaaahahahahahahahaaaa, take THAT, you hole!). > > > > It seems to me that blaming bad weather and bad roads for the poor > accident record of SUVs is stretching the point a bit. > > Car drivers take more care in bad weather. SUVs may make drivers > over-confident and too reckless in bad weather. > > But the big problem with SUVs seems to be roll-overs. > > > >From -- > > Rollover crashes are the leading cause of fatalities in SUVs. Rollovers > are among the most dangerous types of vehicle crashes because of the > high incidence of occupant ejection and head injuries. SUVs are more > prone to rollover than other vehicle types, due to their higher ground > clearance and narrow width, which tend to make these vehicles top-heavy > and more likely to roll over in crashes. (NHTSA) > > In single vehicle crashes, 79 percent of the fatalities among SUV > occupants involve rollover. Single-vehicle rollover crashes produced > more than 50 percent of all occupant deaths in SUVs compared to 34 > percent in pickup trucks and 19 percent in cars. (IIHS) > > Lighter SUVs are disproportionately involved in fatal rollover crashes, > with a rate that is more than 6 times as high as that in the largest > cars. (IIHS) > > For heavier SUVs, those weighing more than 5,000 pounds, nearly 4 out of > every 5 occupant crash deaths (78 percent) occur in single-vehicle > rollovers. (NHTSA) > > In 2001, 35 percent of all SUVs involved in fatal crashes experienced a > rollover. The second most rollover prone vehicles were pickup trucks (25 > percent), followed by vans (19 percent) and, finally, passenger cars (16 > percent). (NHTSA) > > A disproportionately high level of rollover related fatalities > characterizes SUV crashes - the SUV is the only vehicle type in which > the number of occupant deaths in rollovers exceeds the number of > occupant deaths in non-rollover crashes. In 2002, almost two-thirds of > occupant fatalities in SUV crashes occurred in rollovers. (NHTSA) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Thu Jul 8 16:05:49 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:05:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE2923EB@amazemail2.amazeent.com> My best guess, based on observation of SUVs driving around Austin, is around 1.1. Acy -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org on behalf of Kevin Freels Sent: Thu 7/8/2004 11:06 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist Have any of the studies taken the increased passenger capacity of an SUV into consideration ? My Miata carries two people, so the most I could kill in a single vehicle crash is two. Many SUVs can kill up to 8 people in a single-vehicle crash. A collision between the two could kill up to 16. Does anyone know what the average passenger count is in an SUV? ----- Original Message ----- From: "BillK" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:50:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > Even the most hardcore libertarian can see that it would > > be a bargain to use public funds to repair the hole. But > > if the government raises taxes then still refuses to > > resurface the roads, the best course of action is for the > > frustrated masses to buy the biggest rudest ugliest jacked up > > humvee available, then go out gleefully looking for holes > > to run over (muaaahahahahahahahaaaa, take THAT, you hole!). > > > > It seems to me that blaming bad weather and bad roads for the poor > accident record of SUVs is stretching the point a bit. > > Car drivers take more care in bad weather. SUVs may make drivers > over-confident and too reckless in bad weather. > > But the big problem with SUVs seems to be roll-overs. > > > >From -- > > Rollover crashes are the leading cause of fatalities in SUVs. Rollovers > are among the most dangerous types of vehicle crashes because of the > high incidence of occupant ejection and head injuries. SUVs are more > prone to rollover than other vehicle types, due to their higher ground > clearance and narrow width, which tend to make these vehicles top-heavy > and more likely to roll over in crashes. (NHTSA) > > In single vehicle crashes, 79 percent of the fatalities among SUV > occupants involve rollover. Single-vehicle rollover crashes produced > more than 50 percent of all occupant deaths in SUVs compared to 34 > percent in pickup trucks and 19 percent in cars. (IIHS) > > Lighter SUVs are disproportionately involved in fatal rollover crashes, > with a rate that is more than 6 times as high as that in the largest > cars. (IIHS) > > For heavier SUVs, those weighing more than 5,000 pounds, nearly 4 out of > every 5 occupant crash deaths (78 percent) occur in single-vehicle > rollovers. (NHTSA) > > In 2001, 35 percent of all SUVs involved in fatal crashes experienced a > rollover. The second most rollover prone vehicles were pickup trucks (25 > percent), followed by vans (19 percent) and, finally, passenger cars (16 > percent). (NHTSA) > > A disproportionately high level of rollover related fatalities > characterizes SUV crashes - the SUV is the only vehicle type in which > the number of occupant deaths in rollovers exceeds the number of > occupant deaths in non-rollover crashes. In 2002, almost two-thirds of > occupant fatalities in SUV crashes occurred in rollovers. (NHTSA) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 7270 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 16:40:45 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:40:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: References: <004f01c463e6$6097de50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:06:03 -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: > Have any of the studies taken the increased passenger capacity of an SUV > into consideration ? My Miata carries two people, so the most I could kill > in a single vehicle crash is two. Many SUVs can kill up to 8 people in a > single-vehicle crash. A collision between the two could kill up to 16. > > Does anyone know what the average passenger count is in an SUV? > The cynical answer is none. Whenever you see one of these monsters blocking your vision it usually only has one occupant. In UK cities, it will probably be one woman driver. However, the FARS accident statistics also report vehicle occupancy. For 2002, 38,309 fatal accidents, 26,549 drivers, 10,571 passengers. I could not find a breakdown by type of car, but it should be around somewhere. BillK From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 17:16:51 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:16:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: Long Now Presents Seminars on Long-Term Thinking Message-ID: <72660-22004748171651613@M2W085.mail2web.com> Foward: "7/9: The Long Now Presents: Seminars About Long-term Thinking Reply to: services at longnow.org Date: 2004-06-23, 1:52PM PDT SETI researcher JILL TARTER will give a talk titled "The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence---A Necessarily Long-term Strategy." Admission is free. The event takes place on Friday, July 9th, at the Conference Center at Fort Mason, San Francisco. Coffee will be served at 7pm and the talk will begin at 8pm. This is one of a monthly series of Seminars About Long-term Thinking, given every second Friday at Fort Mason, organized by The Long Now Foundation. Future speakers in the series include Danny Hillis, Paul Hawken, Michael West, Ken Dychtwald, Laurie Anderson, and Jared Diamond. If you would like to be notified by email of forthcoming talks, please see www.longnow.org" -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 18:28:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407080015122ea7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040708182835.68914.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Lol Mike, do you think there is code in there to specifically screw > up FSP? Geez, if google is out to get you, I'd start running right > now... No, but google editors have significant input on high value content (or lack of it). The fact that the FSP has seven times more linked content in the google database than ExI but non-existent google sets indicates that some factor outside of statistics is involved, especially considering the very heavy traffic that FSP content actually receives (the FSP Yabb forum with 2872 registered members currently, receives hits ranging from 100k-500k per month over the last year, and currently ranges from 8k-21k hits per day) Considering that the Democratic Party here in NH has declared war on the FSP already (they are quite desperate if they see us as a threat at this point), to the point that one regional vice-chair is quoted saying "The FSP must be destroyed at any cost." It logically follows, statistically speaking, that it is likely 1/3 or more of Google editors are registered Democrats. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megao at sasktel.net Thu Jul 8 17:56:42 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:56:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Googlewhack = extropian +shepherdia Message-ID: <40ED8ADA.6B2DEC64@sasktel.net> People looking for new things to do are looking to fine 2 word combinations with only 1 site hit. extropian +shepherdia is one of these It hits our listing in the Saskatchewan Nutraceutical Network membership directory. From brentn at freeshell.org Thu Jul 8 19:20:27 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:20:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040708182835.68914.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (7/8/04 11:28) Mike Lorrey wrote: >No, but google editors have significant input on high value content (or >lack of it). The fact that the FSP has seven times more linked content >in the google database than ExI but non-existent google sets indicates >that some factor outside of statistics is involved, especially >considering the very heavy traffic that FSP content actually receives >(the FSP Yabb forum with 2872 registered members currently, receives >hits ranging from 100k-500k per month over the last year, and currently >ranges from 8k-21k hits per day) 1) 7 times an infinitesimally small number is still infinitesimally small number. 2) Traffic is not what Google cares about. If you get 100k hits a month from people involved with your organization, then you are still a null value to Google's PageRank algorithm. 3) Considering that Google Sets is beta (hence the "labs.google.com" address), it is not unreasonable to assume that the algorithm they use to find co-occurences in their database is somewhat primitive and perhaps subtly broken. Occam's Razor suggests that this is a more reasonable explanation that a conspiracy. > >Considering that the Democratic Party here in NH has declared war on >the FSP already (they are quite desperate if they see us as a threat at >this point), to the point that one regional vice-chair is quoted saying >"The FSP must be destroyed at any cost." It logically follows, >statistically speaking, that it is likely 1/3 or more of Google editors >are registered Democrats. While it certainly would be flattering for the FSP if there were a conspiracy, I would seriously doubt that the California Democrats care. Just as an academic exercise, after your last response to my email, I asked a highly biased and unscientific sample of NC "Progressive" Democrats if they knew what the Free State Project was. Thus far, zero out of roughly 25 people have responded in the affirmative. Certainly, the NC Democratic party couldn't care less what has gotten your Democratic regional vice-chair's panties in a twist. (They're much more concerned about the fact that the Kucinich/Dean folks are hell-bent and determined to "reshape" the NC party.) I assume you have been involved with the Libertarian party, which tends to have fairly good cooperation between the state organizations. I can assure you that the Democratic party has very little of that in general. Your NH Democratic vice-chair may know a few equivalently-levelled folks in nearby states, but to assume that he or she can call out a national jihad, bringing shadowy and murky forces to bear on your organization is, frankly, just a little silly. Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest in this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a non-existent thing. Google's whole raison d'etre was to find algorithmic ways to classify relevance. Hiring folks to edit the algorithm's results would not be congruent with what we've seen of Google's strategy. They are more likely to hire people to tweak the algorithms or to develop new ones, as has been amply demonstrated by their past responses to perceived or real deficiencies in PageRank. Further, I can't see any smart businessman devoting that kind of manpower to what is at this point a skunkworks project. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 21:11:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708211102.79596.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (7/8/04 11:28) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > 1) 7 times an infinitesimally small number is still infinitesimally > small number. half a million hits a month is not an infinitesimally small number > 2) Traffic is not what Google cares about. If you get 100k hits a > month from people involved with your organization, then you are still > a null value to Google's PageRank algorithm. How would they know who is and is not a member? > 3) Considering that Google Sets is beta (hence the "labs.google.com" > address), it is not unreasonable to assume that the algorithm they > use to find co-occurences in their database is somewhat primitive and > perhaps subtly broken. Occam's Razor suggests that this is a more > reasonable explanation that a conspiracy. incompetence before conspiracy? I'm willing to buy such a claim for a few months. Then I'll fall back on the rule of "twice is happenstance, three times is coincidence, four times is enemy action." I've been getting a LOT of enemy action around here lately... > While it certainly would be flattering for the FSP if there were a > conspiracy, I would seriously doubt that the California Democrats > care. Just as an academic exercise, after your last response to my > email, I asked a highly biased and unscientific sample of NC > "Progressive" Democrats if they knew what the Free State Project was. > Thus far, zero out of roughly 25 people have responded in the > affirmative. Certainly, the NC Democratic party couldn't care less > what has gotten your Democratic regional vice-chair's panties in a > twist. (They're much more concerned about the fact that the > Kucinich/Dean folks are hell-bent and determined to "reshape" the NC > party.) You are assuming that google editors would not be NH resident Democrats. One assumption too many. > > I assume you have been involved with the Libertarian party, which > tends to have fairly good cooperation between the state > organizations. I can assure you that the Democratic party has very > little of that in general. Your NH Democratic vice-chair may know a > few equivalently-levelled folks in nearby states, but to assume that > he or she can call out a national jihad, bringing shadowy and murky > forces to bear on your organization is, frankly, just a little silly. Actually, I only became an LPNH member last year. Up to then, I considered party membership a characteristic of ineffectual big "L"-ness. LPNH actually doesn't cooperate very well with National, and doesn't share funds at all. However, I have noticed that political people cooperate nationwide outside of party organization. Most Libertarian activism happens in spite of the national party, primarily. Similarly, the US 'liberal' movement displays a similar degree of decentralized distributed networking in its activism. For instance, the fellow who created the 'save grafton' website is a DNC party operative who moved to grafton two months ago to coordinate the attack on the Free Town movement as a 'local'. The real target of the attack on us is Governor Benson (R) who endorsed the FSP last year, and who the Dems are unable to mount a credible opponent against in this years race. They may not care about us. They do care immensely about who sits in the governors office in NH, since the state has so much influence on Presidential politics. Smear us, and by association, they smear him. > > Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest in > this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a > non-existent thing. Really? Then why do they have links for people to sign up to be google editors? The DNC has a distinct history of editing history to help achieve their goals, for example, the editing of US history to eliminate any mention that the original 13th amendment was properly ratified (this dealt with stripping citizenship from those who accept titles, pay, or other emoluments from foreign governments or sovereigns, specifically those who claim the title "esquire" due to membership in any Bar Association that is a franchise of the International Bar Association, which was chartered by the king of England.) They have also edited history in editing legal dictionaries to redefine words of prime importance in our laws and our constitution, as I've discussed previously in essays published elsewhere. They also perfected the art of fictitious voting with dead people and other non-qualified voters. If the internet is to be the archive of first resort for most people, their perception of reality will be shaped by what information search engines present to them. If such engine content can be shaped by volunteer editors, as google allows, any political movement with a long range plan (and prior experience in doing so in other media) can easily edit history and reality that people perceive to fit a political agenda. > Google's whole raison d'etre was to find > algorithmic ways to classify relevance. Hiring folks to edit the > algorithm's results would not be congruent with what we've seen of > Google's strategy. They are more likely to hire people to tweak the > algorithms or to develop new ones, as has been amply demonstrated by > their past responses to perceived or real deficiencies in PageRank. > Further, I can't see any smart businessman devoting that kind of > manpower to what is at this point a skunkworks project. You are assuming they are paying for that manpower. One assumption too many. Nor would political agendas be new in such dot coms. The founder of Monster.com has invested heavily in the anti-gun movement and the policies of the company reflect his political agenda. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 00:07:57 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:37:57 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040708211102.79596.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040708211102.79596.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0407081707747a98f9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:11:02 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest in > > this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a > > non-existent thing. > > Really? Then why do they have links for people to sign up to be google > editors? I've looked, but I can't find this sign up link. Do you have a url for it Mike? Emlyn From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 9 02:16:36 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:16:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011e01c4655a$c30d0950$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Kevin Freels: > Does anyone know what the average passenger count is in an SUV? Kevin, around here that average is durn near one. spike From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Fri Jul 9 05:31:18 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:31:18 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <20040708211102.79596.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040708211102.79596.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40EE2DA6.1010806@paradise.net.nz> Mike Lorrey wrote: > half a million hits a month is not an infinitesimally small number True. However, how would google know how many hits per month your site gets? They don't (unless the conspiracy runs deeper than even you have imagined - something to worry about). OTOH, they would know how many referrals *they* give you, and I think this would be a good indication of your popularity. >>2) Traffic is not what Google cares about. If you get 100k hits a >>month from people involved with your organization, then you are still >>a null value to Google's PageRank algorithm. Google *does* care about popularity. My guess is popularity is measured not just via PageRank, but probably also influenced by google referrals. >>Occam's Razor suggests that this is a more >>reasonable explanation that a conspiracy. > incompetence before conspiracy? I think conspiracy is a fairly interesting claim, and you'd need fairly interesting evidence to make it convincing. > non-existent google sets http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=free+state+project&q2=libertarianism&q3=&q4=&q5=&btn=Large+Set vs. http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=&q2=libertarianism&q3=&q4=&q5=&btn=Large+Set Hey, at least including the FSP gets Neopaganism out of the set. What more could you want? Interesting thing: you may have 7x the google entries of ExI, but people do not link to you 7x more. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=link%3Awww.extropy.org&btnG=Search 560 links vs. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=link%3Awww.freestateproject.org&btnG=Search 980 links I don't know how google sets works, but if I had google's database, I'd consider two pages to be related if they were both linked to by another page. >>Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest in >>this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a >>non-existent thing. > Really? Then why do they have links for people to sign up to be google > editors? There are a couple of types of google editors I know about. AdWords editors: http://www.google.com/jobs/adops.html Answers editors: http://answers.google.com/answers/faq.html I'd like to see a link for a search results editor (Democratic voting history a plus!). I did a couple of google fights to settle the issue. "evil google conspiracy" gets 67 000 hits, making it quite likely. "incompetent google" only gets 43 400 hits. However, "subtle algorithm" is the leading contender with 173 000 hits. That's my bet. > If such engine content can be shaped by > volunteer editors, as google allows I really think you need to back this up. Paul Bridger From evmick at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 05:33:19 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:33:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <40EE2E1F.20907@earthlink.net> starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > With the recent death of a prominent transhumanist's parent in an auto > accident, my mind has turned to why people die while behind the wheel > of a car, and what can be done to prevent it. A recent Reader's > Digest website article titled "How Good Drivers Get Killed" did a > fairly good job of explaining the dangers out there. > > It turns out head-on collisions are a top killer, along with with > failing to yield at stop signs and red-light running. But for each > challenge out there the article offers tips on how to reduce one's > chances of becoming another statistic. > > http://www.rd.com/common/nav/index.jhtml?articleId=9522233 > > The article observed that "motorists must remember that the driver's > seat is an inherently unsafe place to be." I find it interesting that > some immortalists who refuse to fly have no problem driving down our > bloodsoaked highways. I tend to think people a century from now will > marvel that the denizens of our time risked their lives every time > they traveled to work or went to buy groceries. > > If anyone has ideas on how to be a better driver (and also how cars > could be made safer) please share it with the list. > > Because one very bad auto accident can ruin an immortalists day (and > entire existance). > > Best wishes, > > John Grigg > Society for Venturism > www.venturist.org > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > The Reason people get Killed in auto accidents is two fold One.....the cars are too lightweight and flimsy. (you can guess who to thank for that) Two....people are idiots. Us truckers call em "idiot four-wheelers". I could tell you tales of what people do while driving...and you wouldn't beleive me. I see it daily and **I** don't beleive it. I'm firmly convinced that there is NO limit to Human Stupidity. For those of you who may not know...this is my area of expertise. I'm a professional driver....I average over 100 K miles a year. Heavy Haul Truck. EvMick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jul 9 06:09:32 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:09:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neurons from skin Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040709010810.01cf5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/nationalnews/tm_objectid=14409176&method=full&siteid=50100&headline=brain-cells-sourced-from-skin-name_page.html I know I should give a Lancet url but it's late. etc From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 21:49:24 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:49:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist References: <011e01c4655a$c30d0950$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: I would have guessed that just by experience, but I was wondering if there were better statistics than my "what I see while driving down the road" set. Also, I am a bit biased against SUVs anyways so I would notice the single occupant SUVs more than I would take notice of an SUV full of people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist > > > > > > Kevin Freels: > > > Does anyone know what the average passenger count is in an SUV? > > > > Kevin, around here that average is durn near one. spike > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 21:52:03 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:52:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist References: <1089050036_31139@mail.cableone.net> <40EE2E1F.20907@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I personally order everything I can online and have it delivered. That way others risk their lives for me..:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Everitt Mickey To: starman2100 at cableone.net ; ExI chat list Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: With the recent death of a prominent transhumanist's parent in an auto accident, my mind has turned to why people die while behind the wheel of a car, and what can be done to prevent it. A recent Reader's Digest website article titled "How Good Drivers Get Killed" did a fairly good job of explaining the dangers out there. It turns out head-on collisions are a top killer, along with with failing to yield at stop signs and red-light running. But for each challenge out there the article offers tips on how to reduce one's chances of becoming another statistic. http://www.rd.com/common/nav/index.jhtml?articleId=9522233 The article observed that "motorists must remember that the driver's seat is an inherently unsafe place to be." I find it interesting that some immortalists who refuse to fly have no problem driving down our bloodsoaked highways. I tend to think people a century from now will marvel that the denizens of our time risked their lives every time they traveled to work or went to buy groceries. If anyone has ideas on how to be a better driver (and also how cars could be made safer) please share it with the list. Because one very bad auto accident can ruin an immortalists day (and entire existance). Best wishes, John Grigg Society for Venturism www.venturist.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat The Reason people get Killed in auto accidents is two fold One.....the cars are too lightweight and flimsy. (you can guess who to thank for that) Two....people are idiots. Us truckers call em "idiot four-wheelers". I could tell you tales of what people do while driving...and you wouldn't beleive me. I see it daily and **I** don't beleive it. I'm firmly convinced that there is NO limit to Human Stupidity. For those of you who may not know...this is my area of expertise. I'm a professional driver....I average over 100 K miles a year. Heavy Haul Truck. EvMick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cphoenix at CRNano.org Fri Jul 9 18:13:34 2004 From: cphoenix at CRNano.org (Chris Phoenix) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:13:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Non-scientist appointee to control WHO panelists In-Reply-To: <200407081800.i68I0ed07501@tick.javien.com> References: <200407081800.i68I0ed07501@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <40EEE04E.5040705@CRNano.org> http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040701/03 From the article: Under the new policy, the director of the Office of Global Health Affairs will determine, in consultation with agency officials, which scientists will be allowed to participate in expert panels of the World Health Organization (WHO). The director of that office is William Steiger, who has a doctorate in Latin American history and has participated in international health negotiations for the HHS. The new policy would allow WHO to request particular scientists to participate on panels, but the HHS Global Health Affairs Office would have to approve those requests. Approved scientists will then be expected to act as "representatives of the US government." Chris -- Chris Phoenix cphoenix at CRNano.org Director of Research Center for Responsible Nanotechnology http://CRNano.org From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Sat Jul 10 11:21:07 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:21:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Hey Damien: Do you know if he is working on any new novels? best, patrick On 8 Jul 2004, at 03:57, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jul04/0704far.html > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jul 9 10:46:44 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:46:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more archives up Message-ID: <20040709104644.GL1141@leitl.org> I've been putting a few archives up. They're not yet indexed by Google, so for now I'm just sending the naked URIs. http://leitl.org/gamess/threads.html Gamess users mailing list http://leitl.org/tt/threads.html Transhumantech archives http://leitl.org/murg2/threads.html MURG new http://leitl.org/murg1/threads.html MURG old http://leitl.org/nanocad/ NanoCAD http://leitl.org/sci.nano/ sci.nano Hope this is useful to anyone, even as is. (It should be indexed in a month, or so). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 9 19:07:17 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Googlewhack = extropian +shepherdia In-Reply-To: <40ED8ADA.6B2DEC64@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040709190717.69452.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > People looking for new things to do are looking to > fine 2 word > combinations with only 1 site hit. > > extropian +shepherdia is one of these > > It hits our listing in the Saskatchewan > Nutraceutical Network membership > directory. *shrugs* If we're looking to googlewhack "extropian": extropian neoluddite From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 07:04:22 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:04:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: Long Now vs singularity In-Reply-To: <72660-22004748171651613@M2W085.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <017c01c4664c$20cd4e50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > natashavita at earthlink.net ... > "7/9: The Long Now Presents: Seminars About Long-term Thinking > > Reply to: services at longnow.org > Date: 2004-06-23, 1:52PM PDT > > > SETI researcher JILL TARTER will give a talk titled "The Search for > Extraterrestrial Intelligence---A Necessarily Long-term Strategy." ... I went to this talk in order to find out how the Long Now people relate to singularitarian notions. Oh my, I was not disappointed at all, no. This was an exceeeedingly interesting pitch by Dr. Tarter. The pen that was to take notes was no good, consequently I shall hafta go on failing memory alone. Do forgive the impressionistic view of the talk. Tonight's crowd included the usual suspects; those that hang out at these kinds of things. I saw several familiar faces, even if I couldn't call out their names. An interesting observation is that Dr. Tarter used the terms singularity and Matrioshka Brains without feeling the need to explain them at all. She had a slide labelled Matrioshka Brain which looked a lot like the S-brain that we discussed here about a year ago. She had a very interesting spin on the singularity. The following discussion is based on her ideas with some extrapolation supplied by me. Assume everything smart is hers, any dumb, nutty or not-well-thought-out notion is my mistaken extrapolation. In this forum I have expressed the notion that we need to somehow map out all the possible scenarios for future technology. Yudkowskian hard-takeoff AI is only one such scenario, one which we have yakkity yakked about to great lengths here and on SL4, but there are other possible futures which should be considered as well. Perhaps I will try again to create a matrix or map of all possible futures. Dr. Tarter gave a simplified map of possible futures as they relate to SETI. Her possible maps of the future are given by three general scenarios: 1) technology is short-lived, 2) singularity and 3) S-curve. (The terminology here is mine, altho Dr. Tarter did use the term singularity for scenario 2.) Her interest in the future of technology is in how it relates to the success or failure of SETI, a different spin than we usually have here. Dr. Tarter showed the three scenarios with technology on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal. We pretty much understand the history of technology: essentially flat at approximately zero for 3e9 years, then the curve suddenly spikes upward. You are here. In scenario 1, technology is short lived, so we destroy ourselves and the other beasts that might otherwise evolve technology sometime real soon now, perhaps in the next few hundred years, with nukes or runaway nanotech, etc. The graph looks like a flat line with one or more curious blip. This is uninteresting from SETI's view, because that means that we will not be able to find ETI by current means, since radio detectable life is short-lived. Scenario 2, singularity. The line is flat at zero for 3 billion years, then suddenly spikes up and keeps going up indefinitely. Again, uninteresting from SETI's view, for a post-singularity AI is probably undetectable using current means. We wouldn't recognize a post-singularity AI if we saw it, and even so, we probably couldnt find it using radio telescopes, since such lifeforms would most likely already be here in the form of... well, fill in the blank. Yudkowskian commentary welcome here. Scenario 3, S curve. The technology vs time line is flat for 3E9 years, then suddenly jumps upward, then somehow reaches a new equilibrium at some other level. I confess that it totally baffles me to imagine how technological development could somehow flatten out at some level somewhere higher than the one we know so well. It really seems absurd. But consider that scenario 2 assumes a sort of process that does not saturate, something that has never been seen in any natural process that has ever been observed. In nature, eeeeeverything saturates or establishes a new equilibrium somewhere. Scenario 3 is the one that most interests the SETI people, for if and only if technology inherently establishes a new equilibrium at some level within our paltry cognitive grasp can ETI ever be observed or even recognized. There are subsets of scenario 3 where a new technological equilibrium can be established, but the level of intelligence is so advanced that we cannot recognize it as ETI. Examples would be an M-brain or S-brain or a more limited version of that, a Jupiter sized utility fog. spike Anyone who wants to, feel free to cross post this to SL4. From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 20:18:16 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:18:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Driver safety and the immortalist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c466bb$08fd6c00$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Kevin Freels > I would have guessed that just by experience, but I was > wondering if there were better statistics than my "what I see while driving down > the road" set. Also, I am a bit biased against SUVs anyways so I would > notice the single occupant SUVs more than I would take notice of an SUV full of people. I drive in the carpool lane every day to work and back along a 10 km corridor along the southern end of San Francisco Bay. Most days we have that lane all to ourselves as we zip past thousands, nay, millions of SUVs. That State Road 237 is a prime example of pavement that is chronically rough. If you have friends who work at the Yahoo headquarters, ask them about their commute. Were the state to resurface that pavement to glassy smoothness, perhaps the proletariat would shift from SUVs toward racy little buggies, which would have the effect of fewer vehicles going offroad into ecologically sensitive areas, simply because fewer vehicles could go there. The kind of car you are most likely to see crammed full of people is one that is on the way to the local high school. That car is most likely to be small and junky, the kind most often driven by that crowd, the kind we drove when we were that age. Kevin, think of it as the four-wheeled version of the universal housing paradox: large families cram into tiny 2 bedroom shacks, whereas the huge luxurious homes generally shelter only two people, both of whom actually spend most of their time away in an office somewhere and merely sleep in that mansion. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jul 10 20:28:53 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos In-Reply-To: <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040710152633.01bb1ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:21 PM 7/10/2004 +0200, Patrick wrote: >Do you know if he is working on any new novels? > >>http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jul04/0704far.html Since this shares its setting with the award winning nearish-future novella `Fast Times at Fairmont High', I assume that's his current project. Damien Broderick From xllb at rogers.com Sat Jul 10 17:39:29 2004 From: xllb at rogers.com (xllb at rogers.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:39:29 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Adam was Innocent Message-ID: <20040710173929.PXKG148077.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@localhost> Man didn?t fall from grace. He was tripped. Neither Adam nor Eve sinned when they ate the forbidden fruit. The Bible account is clear. God communicated His will to Adam when He told Adam not to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We know that Eve got the message as well. When the Serpent asked her why she wasn?t eating the fruit, Eve parroted what God had said. ?Do not eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or on that day you will surely die.? The Serpent predicted that Adam and Eve would not die, but that they would become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil. Eve ate and gave some to Adam, who ate as well. What happened next was immediate and far-reaching. Death was born. Chaos, entropy, labor pains, disease, and human evil became the Planet?s plagues. God immediately expelled the humans from Paradise. As Eve?s extra punishment, earned by offering to share the fruit with Adam, God mandated that wives would be forever subject to their husbands. To this day Eve?s male descendants in many cultures enforce that punishment. The Bible tells us that neither Adam nor Eve received the knowledge of good and evil until after they had acted. They didn?t know that going against God?s command was evil until after they had taken the bite. When they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve were no more capable of sin than a newborn baby is capable of crime. Our species has been Supremely screwed. The mother of all class action suits must become our highest priority. Imagine the potential damages and consider the Defendant?s unlimited ability to compensate. There isn?t a lawyer in the world without the necessary ego. A single Sunday?s offerings would make a healthy retainer. Jesus Himself said ?Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.? But who the Hell will be the Judge? xllb - 071004 From david at lucifer.com Sat Jul 10 23:55:49 2004 From: david at lucifer.com (David McFadzean) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:55:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <6.1.1.1.0.20040710152633.01bb1ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <028c01c466d9$6cdd8610$6301a8c0@sauron> From: "Damien Broderick" > Since this shares its setting with the award winning nearish-future novella > `Fast Times at Fairmont High', I assume that's his current project. The hardcopy magazine has an article following the story, "Mike Villa's World" by Harry Goldstein, which mentions that the story "Synthetic Serendiptiy" was adapted for IEEE Spectrum magazine from his upcoming novel, Rainbows End. The article is a very interesting examination of the technology in Vinge's near future world, well worth tracking down. David From duggerj1 at charter.net Sun Jul 11 00:02:11 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:02:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD: Space Elevator Conference presentations now online Message-ID: <40F08383.10809@charter.net> Saturday, 10 July 2004 Hello all: Thanks to the person who pointed me to this early. For everyone else, here you go: Speaker presentations from "The Space Elevator: 3rd Annual International Conference" are now online. To view the presentations, please visit http://www.isr.us/Spaceelevatorconference/2004presentations.html. [snip] From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jul 11 07:21:08 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:21:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It Message-ID: <04b601c46717$a2f524e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> July 19, 2004 issue - You don't usually go to government reports for arresting prose. But consider this sentence: "Indeed, at the current rate of loss, literary reading as a leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5411407/site/newsweek/ On the other hand, half a century is a long time ... and technology may just come up with variants of the lowly bookworm. Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 15:12:07 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:12:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] happy birthday anders sandberg In-Reply-To: <04b601c46717$a2f524e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000d01c46759$6ea40610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Anders wherever you are hanging out these days, we fondly recall your input. spike From megaquark at hotmail.com Sun Jul 11 15:41:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:41:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] too late Message-ID: I guess I was too late on this. I have been working on this in my spare time but just haven't had the time or money to build a prototype. Now someone else has built this interactive headstone! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3876351.stm Kevin Freels -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jul 11 19:27:23 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:27:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] happy birthday anders sandberg In-Reply-To: <000d01c46759$6ea40610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <04b601c46717$a2f524e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040711122312.03073330@mail.earthlink.net> Happy Birthday Anders! Our birthdays are feathers in the broad wing of time. Jean Paul Richter Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jul 11 18:10:26 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:10:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Obituary - Thomas Gold Message-ID: <40F18292.8643AD6B@mindspring.com> < http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2876655 > [Thomas Gold, a maverick astronomer, died on June 22nd, aged 84] A balanced review on the hits and misses, so far, in the career of Thomas Gold. Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 11 18:32:16 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:32:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos In-Reply-To: <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <40F187B0.8070507@cfl.rr.com> Patrick Wilken wrote: > Hey Damien: > > Do you know if he is working on any new novels? > > best, patrick > > > On 8 Jul 2004, at 03:57, Damien Broderick wrote: > Nice story. I would just like to say that if you liked it it's best to save a local copy. They always claim that "we archive these things forever" but often when you click the bookmark a year later - big fat 404. From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Jul 11 19:57:41 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:57:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] happy birthday anders sandberg In-Reply-To: <000d01c46759$6ea40610$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <9111A4E1-D374-11D8-A697-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 11:12 am, Spike wrote: > Anders wherever you are hanging out these days, we > fondly recall your input. spike Indeed! Happy Birthday Anders! -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 11 20:18:00 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:18:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] happy birthday anders sandberg In-Reply-To: <9111A4E1-D374-11D8-A697-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> References: <9111A4E1-D374-11D8-A697-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <40F1A078.8070601@cfl.rr.com> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > On Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 11:12 am, Spike wrote: > >> Anders wherever you are hanging out these days, we >> fondly recall your input. spike > > > Indeed! Happy Birthday Anders! > > -- > Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Speaking of birthdays. Here are some with 100 or more. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=3577738&thesection=news&thesubsection=world From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Jul 11 23:56:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <04b601c46717$a2f524e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040711235638.6489.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > July 19, 2004 issue - You don't usually go to > government reports for > arresting prose. But consider this sentence: > "Indeed, at the current rate of > loss, literary reading as a leisure activity will > virtually disappear in > half a century." > > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5411407/site/newsweek/ > > On the other hand, half a century is a long time ... > and technology may just > come up with variants of the lowly bookworm. I wonder...do they count people reading works online as "reading"? I've been told repeatedly that very few people are willing to read lengthy electronic texts, especially for pleasure, but I know I'm willing to...and the more I look around, the more people I see doing the same. (Increase that rate if you include people enjoying non-purely-literary fictional works online, especially the interactive formats not possible sans computers.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 00:16:22 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Non-scientist appointee to control WHO panelists In-Reply-To: <40EEE04E.5040705@CRNano.org> Message-ID: <20040712001622.14173.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Phoenix wrote: > http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040701/03 > > From the article: > > Under the new policy, the director of the Office of > Global Health > Affairs will determine, in consultation with agency > officials, which > scientists will be allowed to participate in expert > panels of the World > Health Organization (WHO). I've had a hard time understanding why a US government official gets to dictate policy for its citizens like that. Its employees, yes - employees of the government could be construed as government spokespeople, even when they're doing things on their own. But citizens who may merely receive funding from the government for their studies, or who have less connection? That's covered under "freedom of expression", part of the First Amendment, no? From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 03:30:58 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:00:58 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos In-Reply-To: <40F187B0.8070507@cfl.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <40F187B0.8070507@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04071120305281dd11@mail.gmail.com> Excellent story, I liked it a lot. That patchwork way of operating, pulling in knowledge you need from the net, feels like home to me (as a coder in 2004). His ideas about the change from deep knowledge to very broad, shallow, just-in-time knowledge ring true too. Imo, we need that to a large extent, or else we are always bound by the speed with which we can deep learn. Shallow net-enabled work is really a better way of distributing a scarce resource, expertise. btw, I read the novel as a file on a 3G phone/PDA/jack-of-all-trades thing, mostly whilst wandering around doing other stuff. It felt good :-) Emlyn On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:32:16 -0400, Gregory Propf wrote: > Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > Hey Damien: > > > > Do you know if he is working on any new novels? > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > On 8 Jul 2004, at 03:57, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > Nice story. I would just like to say that if you liked it it's best to > save a local copy. They always claim that "we archive these things > forever" but often when you click the bookmark a year later - big fat 404. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jul 12 05:08:04 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:08:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <20040711235638.6489.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <04b601c46717$a2f524e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <20040711235638.6489.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040712050803.GR1141@leitl.org> On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 04:56:38PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I wonder...do they count people reading works online > as "reading"? I've been told repeatedly that very > few people are willing to read lengthy electronic > texts, especially for pleasure, but I know I'm willing It is a culture thing, a display thing and portability thing. Font rendering has gotten better, but displays are still nowhere nearby 200-300 dpi. Handling is an issue, I don't have a scroll wheel but I can smooth-scroll with the track pad. Portability is an issue: I lug my iBook everywhere, but I'd rather have a rugged tablet or a wearable, something I could drop or use in the bathtub, with a battery life of 6-12 h. It should be cheap, and back itself up automatically, to not lose content ever. It can be done today, but largely by poor students and rich first-adopter type technology people. It should become the norm in a decade, or two. > to...and the more I look around, the more people I see > doing the same. (Increase that rate if you include > people enjoying non-purely-literary fictional works > online, especially the interactive formats not > possible sans computers.) -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 09:26:41 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Prince C. warns nanotechnology could be like thalidomide Message-ID: <20040712092641.36020.qmail@web50806.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17153 The Inquirer: "According to yesterday's Independent on Sunday, Prince Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor, also known as the Prince of Wales, and the first heir to the throne ever to 'earn' a university degree, has backed a boffin at Cambridge University who suggests that nanotechnology could pose untold dangers in the future. He said in the article that he doesn't fear grey goo, has never used that term, and he doesn't believe that self replicating robots will devour our planet. He says the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering are conducting a joint study on nanotechnology which will help separate the facts from the science friction. He reckons that we probably know less about nanoscales than De Havilland knew about metal fatigue. But we reckon that Intel and AMD know more about nanotechnology than he does. And that the self-replicating robots devouring the planet probably work for search engines and use nanoscale semiconductors to propagate." From david at lucifer.com Mon Jul 12 14:51:11 2004 From: david at lucifer.com (David Lucifer) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:51:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] new free Vinge story, with illos References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040707205650.01d68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><3CF6CBB7-D263-11D8-AE43-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de><6.1.1.1.0.20040710152633.01bb1ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <028c01c466d9$6cdd8610$6301a8c0@sauron> Message-ID: <00ce01c4681f$ae282d40$6701a8c0@tbc.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David McFadzean" > The hardcopy magazine has an article following the story, "Mike Villa's > World" by Harry Goldstein, which mentions that the story "Synthetic > Serendiptiy" was adapted for IEEE Spectrum magazine from his upcoming novel, > Rainbows End. The article is a very interesting examination of the > technology in Vinge's near future world, well worth tracking down. It has come to my attention (thank you, Cole :-) that the aforementioned article is also available online>> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jul04/0704mvw.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 16:02:21 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <20040712050803.GR1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040712160221.17420.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > I'd rather have a rugged tablet or a wearable, > something I could drop or use > in the bathtub, with a battery life of 6-12 h. It > should be cheap, and back > itself up automatically, to not lose content ever. Hmm. My Palm Tungsten C (pocket PDA, so as portable as a wearable) has been through a few adventures with me (let's just say it has survived impact trauma - though the extra case I bought for it helped), though it needed repairs the first time (a tougher case would probably have prevented this; they didn't sell such then, but they do now), and seems to display the necessary battery life. It's a relatively high-end model, but I suspect one could find these properties in their sub-$100 models too. Backing it up is a matter of putting it in its cradle (so it can recharge) and pushing a button; since it has to recharge somehow, which requires establishing a physical connection (short-range beamed power is not viable for household use...is it?), I don't see it getting much simpler than this. Which leaves the issue of the bathtub. I've heard that from a number of people, even seen it in ads on TV, but...isn't that dangerous to paper? I mean, if you're willing to take care not to get the paper wet, then it's just like a PDA: merely being near water is a far cry from being in it. Dropping it in could ruin a book more likely than ruin a PDA, given the types of paper most books are made from. There's no serious electrocution hazard from most PDAs that I know of, if that's the concern. Am I not seeing something? From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 16:14:14 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:14:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It Message-ID: I've dropped quite a few books and magazines in the tub. It might spoil your first edition, signed Hemingway, but National Geographic dries out and is still readable. If the corner of a palm or laptop gets dipped or if the unit get splashed you could cause expensive damage and experience data loss. It seems like some of the epaper options would be bathtub safe. I want an ultrathin, plastic encased tablet or pda that can withstand a few feet of immersion. BAL >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Read All About It >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > I'd rather have a rugged tablet or a wearable, > > something I could drop or use > > in the bathtub, with a battery life of 6-12 h. It > > should be cheap, and back > > itself up automatically, to not lose content ever. > >Hmm. My Palm Tungsten C (pocket PDA, so as portable >as a wearable) has been through a few adventures with >me (let's just say it has survived impact trauma - >though the extra case I bought for it helped), though >it needed repairs the first time (a tougher case would >probably have prevented this; they didn't sell such >then, but they do now), and seems to display the >necessary battery life. It's a relatively high-end >model, but I suspect one could find these properties >in their sub-$100 models too. Backing it up is a >matter of putting it in its cradle (so it can >recharge) and pushing a button; since it has to >recharge somehow, which requires establishing a >physical connection (short-range beamed power is not >viable for household use...is it?), I don't see it >getting much simpler than this. > >Which leaves the issue of the bathtub. I've heard >that from a number of people, even seen it in ads on >TV, but...isn't that dangerous to paper? I mean, if >you're willing to take care not to get the paper wet, >then it's just like a PDA: merely being near water is >a far cry from being in it. Dropping it in could ruin >a book more likely than ruin a PDA, given the types of >paper most books are made from. There's no serious >electrocution hazard from most PDAs that I know of, if >that's the concern. Am I not seeing something? >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 17:24:47 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:24:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Any more suggesions for list moderators? Message-ID: <187280-220047112172447274@M2W095.mail2web.com> I think we have plenty of suggestions, but I thought I'd give a last call - Thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From samantha at objectent.com Mon Jul 12 17:41:10 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:41:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up here. The US press is full of stories about possibly suspending US presidential elections if there is significant terrorism. There are subtexts that they may be suspended even if there is a "credible threat of terrorism". I don't know about you folks but this is the most frightening notion I have ever seen floated in the US press. If we in the US do not have the power any longer to even elect the top of the largely unelected government pyramid dependably then it is a dark day indeed. We have taken a huge step down the road to super-banana-republic. We are far fewer steps from de facto dictatorship than I ever feared. Call me paranoid, but what is to prevent this administration from doing less than it could to stop a terrorist threat if it believes it would lose in November? It will get very ugly in such an event. The worst of it is that most of the people will yawn over even this. They will assume that "they know what the are doing and have our best interests at heart". They will assume that their uneasiness probably has no real basis and stop thinking. Very few will raise a stink. Few will even believe it is a credible threat. They have believed for too long "This is America, it can't happen here!" Simple belief that this is so or wishing it was so will not keep it away from our door. Folks, pay good attention. The freest, most advanced and most powerful country on earth is headed in more blatantly unfree directions almost by the day. There is an extremely unextropic vector gaining in magnitude. - samantha From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 18:15:02 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712181502.40199.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up > here. The US press > is full of stories about possibly suspending US > presidential elections > if there is significant terrorism. There are > subtexts that they may > be suspended even if there is a "credible threat of > terrorism". Well of course there's talk of it in the press, after it's been proposed for other, less democratic nations. Don't worry about that. The time to be worried is if people in government start seriously discussing it, especially if it does not get strongly and vigorously denounced at the highest levels that speak about it. (Disclaimer added in case a staffer suggests it, his boss shoots him down, and the matter never reaches the White House so they remain silent.) > Call me > paranoid, but what is to prevent this administration > from doing less > than it could to stop a terrorist threat if it > believes it would lose > in November? Honestly? Mainly the very real threat of impeachment should such a stunt be tried. Security is one thing, but turning the US into a dictatorship in fact? Even the majority of Congress has no stomach for that. (If they did, they'd have done it already.) And if the White House tries to stop Congress by force, they'll find almost the entire US military suddenly taking orders from the House and Senate for the duration. From dgc at cox.net Mon Jul 12 18:36:00 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:36:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F2DA10.4030001@cox.net> My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush administration have demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US constitution, and it underlying principles. This is merely the most recent and most egregious example. My second reaction: The arguments in favor of gun ownership now outweigh the arguments against. My third reaction: I think that someone in the government should in fact be thinking hard about how the the government and people of this country should react to a credible terrorist threat on election day. There may in fact be threats which should result in suspending the election. Therefore, we should in fact discuss this now rather than closer to the election. It may be that this is all that has happened. Unfortunately, the Bush administration no longer has the credibility to initiate and lead this discussion. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:59:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407081707747a98f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040712185902.35940.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:11:02 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > > > > > > Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest > in > > > this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a > > > non-existent thing. > > > > Really? Then why do they have links for people to sign up to be > google > > editors? > http://www.google.com/dirhp The bottom is recruiting editors for Googles open directory project Also, the google sets page advertises looking for people to become google engineers... > > > I've looked, but I can't find this sign up link. Do you have a url > for it Mike? > > Emlyn > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:10:46 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Sets In-Reply-To: <40EE2DA6.1010806@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <20040712191046.37246.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- "paul.bridger" wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >>2) Traffic is not what Google cares about. If you get 100k hits a > >>month from people involved with your organization, then you are > still > >>a null value to Google's PageRank algorithm. > > Google *does* care about popularity. My guess is popularity is > measured not > just via PageRank, but probably also influenced by google referrals. > > >>Occam's Razor suggests that this is a more > >>reasonable explanation that a conspiracy. > > incompetence before conspiracy? > > I think conspiracy is a fairly interesting claim, and you'd need > fairly interesting evidence to make it convincing. Ah, but if you can create an open and shut case, then the rule of a conspiracy being secret has been violated, qed. A conspiracy is entirely capable of being incompetent at the same time (I'd say this is typically the default case). > > > non-existent google sets > http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=free+state+project&q2=libertarianism&q3=&q4=&q5=&btn=Large+Set > vs. > http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=&q2=libertarianism&q3=&q4=&q5=&btn=Large+Set > > Hey, at least including the FSP gets Neopaganism out of the set. What > more could you want? > > Interesting thing: you may have 7x the google entries of ExI, but > people do not link to you 7x more. > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=link%3Awww.extropy.org&btnG=Search > 560 links > vs. > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=link%3Awww.freestateproject.org&btnG=Search > 980 links Ah, this is an interesting point, which I'll be taking up with the FSP marketing people. I will say that crosslinking is generally a cumulative process: the longer you are in operation, the more crosslinks you should develop. Comparing ExI, an organization a couple decades old, with the FSP, which has been in existence for not even three years, should demonstrate that the FSP has nearly doubled the crosslinks of ExI in 15% of the time. > > I don't know how google sets works, but if I had google's database, > I'd consider two pages to be related if they were both linked to by > another page. So would I. I happen to know that there are a lot of people talking about the FSP in blogs, essays, articles, and email lists/newsgroups/forums, which is one reason that Google Sets' ignorance of FSP related sets is perplexing. > > >>Finally, though Google plays its cards fairly close to the chest in > >>this regard, I'm pretty confident that a "Google editor" is a > >>non-existent thing. > > Really? Then why do they have links for people to sign up to be > google > > editors? > > There are a couple of types of google editors I know about. > AdWords editors: http://www.google.com/jobs/adops.html > Answers editors: http://answers.google.com/answers/faq.html > I'd like to see a link for a search results editor (Democratic voting > history a plus!). http://www.google.com/dirhp This page recruits people to be editors for Google's Open Directory Project, which I presume acts as at least one source of information for Google Sets.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 19:29:24 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F2DA10.4030001@cox.net> Message-ID: <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush > administration have > demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US > constitution, and it > underlying principles. This is merely the most > recent and most egregious > example. Umm...Samantha said *the press* are talking about it. Do you have a single specific instance of *the Bush administration* talking about it? Bush has done enough things to be worth voting him out of office, without attributing to him violations he has not in fact even contemplated yet. The case against him is far stronger if it relies only on the truth, just like most such cases. From dgc at cox.net Mon Jul 12 19:44:03 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:44:03 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush >>administration have >>demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US >>constitution, and it >>underlying principles. This is merely the most >>recent and most egregious >>example. >> >> > >Umm...Samantha said *the press* are talking about it. >Do you have a single specific instance of *the Bush >administration* talking about it? > >Bush has done enough things to be worth voting him out >of office, without attributing to him violations he >has not in fact even contemplated yet. The case >against him is far stronger if it relies only on the >truth, just like most such cases. > > From the first hit at google news: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-12-postpone-elections_x.htm "[Newsweek] cited unnamed sources who said the Department of Homeland Security asked the Justice Department for advice last week. /Newsweek/ said DeForest Soaries, chairman of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, wants Ridge to ask Congress to pass legislation giving the government power to cancel or reschedule a federal election. Soaries said New York suspended primary elections on the day of the Sept. 11 attacks, but the federal government does not appear to have that authority." Recall my third reaction: what should we do if someone nukes Washington on election day? As horrible as it sounds, our society really does need to answer this question. From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Mon Jul 12 19:48:11 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:48:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04Jul12.154812-0400_edt.314968-15512+9423@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Samantha Atkins writes: > I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up here. The US press is > full of stories about possibly suspending US presidential elections if > there is significant terrorism. There are subtexts that they may be > suspended even if there is a "credible threat of terrorism". What bothers me is that these people keep pointing to the Spanish elections as an example of what they want to avoid. The Spanish elections were not interrupted. They took place as planned. However, there were terrorist attacks just before the election. The populace voted out the pro-war factions and voted in the anti-war factions. Pro-war conservatives claim that the terrorists scared the public into voting against the war. Anti-war liberals claim the populace voted the way they wanted. This is what they want to avoid here. If they feel like George Bush is going to be voted out of office because a large section of the electorate blames him for terrorism, they want the option to postpone the election until that groundswell has gone away. Pay careful attention to the words when they say "cancel" the election rather than "retry" or "recover" the election. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From Steve365 at btinternet.com Mon Jul 12 19:49:34 2004 From: Steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:49:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections References: <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e201c46849$63d17830$c87f7ad5@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" > --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush > > administration have > > demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US > > constitution, and it > > underlying principles. This is merely the most > > recent and most egregious > > example. > > Umm...Samantha said *the press* are talking about it. > Do you have a single specific instance of *the Bush > administration* talking about it? > As I understand it the head of the US Election Assistance Commission floated this idea a couple of weeks ago - see http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/06/26/election2004/21_17_566_25_04.txt and for a more recent comment see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/ Knowing the way politics works today I would say that this is a trial ballon. Time to write a lot of very angry letters to make sure it gets shot down spectacularly. It's worth pointing out that while elections have been suspended in time of war over here in the UK (in both World Wars), a Bill to extend the life of Parliament beyond a general election date is the one kind of measure where the Lords have an absolute veto and where the Royal Assent can be refused even if it were to pass both Houses. Not very reliable but better than nothing I guess. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:20:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F2DA10.4030001@cox.net> Message-ID: <20040712202026.47658.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush administration have > demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US constitution, and it > underlying principles. This is merely the most recent and most > egregious example. Somewhat, but no less than previous administrations. Bush, for instance, does recognise my 2nd amendment rights as individual rights, not community or states rights. He recognises the distinction between legal and illegal combatants, but did get his wrist slapped in allowing prisoners a legal hearing to determine legally which group they belong to (the Geneva Conventions say it only has to happen at the end of hostilities). > > My second reaction: The arguments in favor of gun ownership now > outweigh the arguments against. Excellent point. Citizens defending their polling places against both terrorism and tyranny is the ultimate argument for the 2nd amendment. Hunting and self defense are only secondary utilitarian arguments. If either elections get scrubbed or we suffer attacks intended to impact elections occur, it will take common citizens taking back their elections from BOTH sides. Frankly, any person who lets a terrorist attack affect their vote isn't a real citizen, IMHO, they are serfs willing to be bullied. > > My third reaction: I think that someone in the government should in > fact be thinking hard about how the the government and people of this > country should react to a credible terrorist threat on election day. > There may in fact be threats which should result in suspending the > election. Therefore, we should in fact discuss this now rather than > closer to the election. It may be that this is all that has > happened. > Unfortunately, the Bush administration no longer has the credibility > to initiate and lead this discussion. I imagine that the 'world leaders'that Kerry has the secret support of (China? Syria? Palestine? France? Iran? North Korea?) would love to see a major attack in a polling area which will be of strategic importance in the election, like Florida, where records will be so badly damaged by an attack that the entire state will not be able to be counted at all in the electoral college, leading to a hung jury so that we are unable to declare a winner in the election, a situation that the Constitution is not built to handle. If one is declared by the Supreme Court, the losing side will make further declarations (this time real) of illegitimate reign and the US will lose further confidence on the world stage. Prediction: attacks on polling places will occur in areas where the 2nd amendment is not respected by state and local governments, where citizens are not capable of defending the republic, and will vote, if they are able to vote in fear as serfs, rather than in righteous rage as citizens. Characteristics of likely locations: a) onerous gun control/gun carry laws, and b) large muslim populations, and c) ineffectual police (due to PC administration and/or union rules) and/or National Guard units (due to being overseas) d) far from significant military bases Profiling for terrorists is not racial profiling, it is terrorist profiling. 70 year old grannies, white males in suits, soccer moms with kids in the minivan are not in the profile. FYI: The Democrats invented 'racial' profiling. Hallowed liberal, Robert Kennedy, as US Attorny General under his brother, in investigating KKK anti-civil rights activities, ordered police and national guard units across the South to profile white males at highway roadblocks and other locations, on the logic that women and blacks and other minorities could not belong to the KKK.... why was it okay then? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 12 20:38:07 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:38:07 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <04Jul12.154812-0400_edt.314968-15512+9423@ams.ftl.affinity.com> References: <04Jul12.154812-0400_edt.314968-15512+9423@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <40F2F6AF.30608@cfl.rr.com> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Samantha Atkins writes: > >> I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up here. The US press >> is full of stories about possibly suspending US presidential >> elections if there is significant terrorism. There are subtexts >> that they may be suspended even if there is a "credible threat of >> terrorism". > > > What bothers me is that these people keep pointing to the Spanish > elections as an example of what they want to avoid. The Spanish > elections were not interrupted. They took place as planned. However, > there were terrorist attacks just before the election. The populace > voted out the pro-war factions and voted in the anti-war factions. > Pro-war conservatives claim that the terrorists scared the public into > voting against the war. Anti-war liberals claim the populace voted > the way they wanted. > This is what they want to avoid here. If they feel like George Bush > is going to be voted out of office because a large section of the > electorate blames him for terrorism, they want the option to postpone > the election until that groundswell has gone away. Pay careful > attention to the words when they say "cancel" the election rather than > "retry" or "recover" the election. This is what to look for. My guess is that in coming months the right wing radio machine will start yakking about the "the Spanish case" or something like that. They will be prepping their followers for a postponement if there is a terrorist incident. From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 20:27:19 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:27:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: Isn't it pretty pointless for a newsource to quote "unnamed sources". What proves that they exist. I've noticed this a lot lately with "unnamed sources close to xyz". This could be Tom Ridge speaking off the record or a janitor. There have been quite a few cases of news fabrication lately. I disregard any story that won't name who is providing the information. BAL >From: Dan Clemmensen >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:44:03 -0400 > >Adrian Tymes wrote: > >>--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: >> >> >>>My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush >>>administration have demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US >>>constitution, and it underlying principles. This is merely the most >>>recent and most egregious example. >>> >>> >> >>Umm...Samantha said *the press* are talking about it. >>Do you have a single specific instance of *the Bush >>administration* talking about it? >> >>Bush has done enough things to be worth voting him out >>of office, without attributing to him violations he >>has not in fact even contemplated yet. The case >>against him is far stronger if it relies only on the >>truth, just like most such cases. >> >> >From the first hit at google news: > >http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-12-postpone-elections_x.htm > >"[Newsweek] cited unnamed sources who said the Department of Homeland >Security asked the Justice Department for advice last week. > >/Newsweek/ said DeForest Soaries, chairman of the U.S. Election Assistance >Commission, wants Ridge to ask Congress to pass legislation giving the >government power to cancel or reschedule a federal election. Soaries said >New York suspended primary elections on the day of the Sept. 11 attacks, >but the federal government does not appear to have that authority." > > >Recall my third reaction: what should we do if someone nukes Washington on >election day? As horrible as it sounds, our society really does need to >answer this question. > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Mon Jul 12 20:57:13 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:57:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: <1089665833.16944@whirlwind.he.net> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Recall my third reaction: what should we do if someone nukes Washington > on election day? As horrible as it sounds, our society really does need > to answer this question. A cynical person would say that this would solve most of the problems we were voting about in the first place in any given election cycle... The actual solution is actually quite simple: schedule the elections earlier in the year. This would give scheduling flexibility within Constitutional guidelines. The reason they moved the schedule so late over the last two centuries was to minimize the amount of time a lame duck politician would be in office, mitigating some of the mischievousness that results if you have a bunch of people in Washington who know they will be canned and can therefore do things with political impunity. In the past, some politicians made a point of having a scorched earth exit from the political scene. Actually, putting it that way, I'd risk the nuke and go one with late elections. j. andrew rogers From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jul 12 20:59:06 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:59:06 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040712205906.GX1141@leitl.org> On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 04:27:19PM -0400, Brian Lee wrote: > There have been quite a few cases of news fabrication lately. I disregard > any story that won't name who is providing the information. I no longer bother to track US-relevant issues that rush through my mailbox. It's your toxic spillage; you track it, and you clean it up. The world is watching. Please don't screw this up. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dgc at cox.net Mon Jul 12 21:07:41 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:07:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F2FD9D.5020102@cox.net> Brian Lee wrote: > Isn't it pretty pointless for a newsource to quote "unnamed sources". > What proves that they exist. I've noticed this a lot lately with > "unnamed sources close to xyz". This could be Tom Ridge speaking off > the record or a janitor. > > There have been quite a few cases of news fabrication lately. I > disregard any story that won't name who is providing the information. > > BAL Newsweek is effectively the same organization as the Washington Post. They are not perfect, and they are not unbiased. However, they do try fairly hard to validate their sources. I trust them a lot more than I trust the Bush administration. I suggest you re-read "All the President's Men." That is the book about the Watergate affair. Two additional points: 1) There has been no denial from the administration. 2) As I said earlier, someone in government really should be thinking about this. In my opinion, our society needs to de-politicize this discussion to the extent possible, and try hard for consensus. We need to quickly list the things we can all agree on immediately, and list any areas of disagreement. This issue is far too important to use in support of dogmatic positions of any type. Unfortunately, we are now so badly polarized that there is nobody left in the middle to bring us together. From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 12 21:22:59 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:22:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712202026.47658.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040712202026.47658.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F30133.9040209@cfl.rr.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>My first reaction: The senior people in the Bush administration have >>demonstrated a profound ignorance of the US constitution, and it >>underlying principles. This is merely the most recent and most >>egregious example. >> >> > >Somewhat, but no less than previous administrations. Bush, for >instance, does recognise my 2nd amendment rights as individual rights, >not community or states rights. He recognises the distinction between >legal and illegal combatants, > It's going to be really funny (to me) when Homeland security declares all the freestaters to be "enemy combatants" >Profiling for terrorists is not racial profiling, it is terrorist >profiling. 70 year old grannies, white males in suits, soccer moms with >kids in the minivan are not in the profile. > > >FYI: The Democrats invented 'racial' profiling. Hallowed liberal, >Robert Kennedy, as US Attorny General under his brother, in >investigating KKK anti-civil rights activities, ordered police and >national guard units across the South to profile white males at highway >roadblocks and other locations, on the logic that women and blacks and >other minorities could not belong to the KKK.... why was it okay then? > > This is a red herring. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 21:38:12 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F2FD9D.5020102@cox.net> Message-ID: <20040712213812.37321.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > Newsweek is effectively the same organization as the Washington Post. > They are not perfect, and they are not unbiased. However, they do try > fairly hard to validate their sources. I trust them a lot more than I > trust the Bush administration. I suggest you re-read "All the > President's Men." That is the book about the Watergate affair. I don't trust Newsweek or the Washington Post. US News & World Report is one of the few reliable sources. While Newsweek does try to verify sources, it's ability to quote within context is non-existent. > > Two additional points: > 1) There has been no denial from the administration. > 2) As I said earlier, someone in government really should be > thinking about this. Very true. Should be part of the whole continuity of government planning that has gone on so much of with the 'shadow' government swapping places frequently. The election crisis in Florida should have been warning enough that the Constitution just isn't built to deal with purposely contrived electoral crises, just as it wasn't built to deal with a walkout of half of congress in 1860. > > In my opinion, our society needs to de-politicize this discussion to > the extent possible, and try hard for consensus. We need to quickly > list the things we can all agree on immediately and list any areas of > disagreement. This issue is far too important to use in support of > dogmatic positions of any type. Unfortunately, we are now so badly > polarized that there is nobody left in the middle to bring us > together. Keep in mind that the GOP attacked Roosevelt mercilessly during the heat of WWII, especially at election time, with many 'tyrant' type arguments. What the enemy seems to think is that us screwing things up now is going to have some sort of long term results. That just isn't so, and illustrates their fundamental misunderstanding of our country. In 1860, the southern states figured they could destroy the federal government simply by walking out of congress without adjournment, something the Constitution wasn't written to deal with, creating an unconstitutional rump legislature. They didn't figure that Lincoln would ignore the constitutional issues, or that people would put up with him doing so. In the mid-20th century, communist forces figured that they could use the Constitution against its people, infiltrating operatives into the highest offices (Alger Hess, Harry David White, among others in the Roosevelt and Truman Administrations) but they didn't figure that people like Joe McCarthy would call a spade a spade, or that anyone would listen to Whittaker Chambers and his rotten teeth. They laughingly went on and got us embedded in proxy wars and welfare statism, until one fellow came along named Reagan who helped start the end of the socialist experiment. Muslim fundamentalists seem to be of similar delusion. They may screw up this election. Half the people may be convinced they were robbed and the election stolen, either by terrorists and their liberal apologists, or by a neo-conservative cabal. Elections, when they exist, are really just a formality of affirming or denying the confidence of the people in the leadership of those in power. They can be gamed, because they are meant to take place in an atmosphere of mutual trust and good sportsmanship. When one or more parties are intent on gaming and cheating the system, the results can't and shouldn't be trusted or relied upon. People should, however, be rightly outraged against getting played by those intent on deception and manipulation, but they should be mad at themselves, primarily. It is ultimately a measure of how much they themselves have willingly given up power, decision making, and liberties to government and the media. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 21:45:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F30133.9040209@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040712214555.13169.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gregory Propf wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > >Somewhat, but no less than previous administrations. Bush, for > >instance, does recognise my 2nd amendment rights as individual > rights, > >not community or states rights. He recognises the distinction > between > >legal and illegal combatants, > > > It's going to be really funny (to me) when Homeland security declares > all the freestaters to be "enemy combatants" It will be funny, for about five seconds. Then I'll have to admit to all the Birchers whose conspiracy theories about bankers, lawyers, the ultra-rich, and communism, I disparage so much, that they were right... > > > >Profiling for terrorists is not racial profiling, it is terrorist > >profiling. 70 year old grannies, white males in suits, soccer moms > with > >kids in the minivan are not in the profile. > > > >FYI: The Democrats invented 'racial' profiling. Hallowed liberal, > >Robert Kennedy, as US Attorny General under his brother, in > >investigating KKK anti-civil rights activities, ordered police and > >national guard units across the South to profile white males at > highway > >roadblocks and other locations, on the logic that women and blacks > and > >other minorities could not belong to the KKK.... why was it okay > then? > > > This is a red herring. On the contrary, the other significant instance of racial profiling in 20th century US was, of course, the Japanese internment during WWII under the direction of the Democrat, FDR. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 22:04:33 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: <153370-22004711222433417@M2W050.mail2web.com> From: Dan Clemmensen >In my opinion, our society needs to de-politicize this discussion to the >extent possible, and try hard for consensus. We need to quickly list the >things we can all agree on immediately, and list any areas of >disagreement. This issue is far too important to use in support of >dogmatic positions of any type. Unfortunately, we are now so badly >polarized that there is nobody left in the middle to bring us together. I agree. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 12 22:39:05 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:39:05 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712214555.13169.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040712214555.13169.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F31309.3020903@cfl.rr.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Gregory Propf wrote: > > >>Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >>>Somewhat, but no less than previous administrations. Bush, for >>>instance, does recognise my 2nd amendment rights as individual >>> >>> >>rights, >> >> >>>not community or states rights. He recognises the distinction >>> >>> >>between >> >> >>>legal and illegal combatants, >>> >>> >>> >>It's going to be really funny (to me) when Homeland security declares >>all the freestaters to be "enemy combatants" >> >> > >It will be funny, for about five seconds. Then I'll have to admit to >all the Birchers whose conspiracy theories about bankers, lawyers, the >ultra-rich, and communism, I disparage so much, that they were right... > > > This is just an ad hominem. That the Birchers might have been excessively vigilant in their theorizing about the dangers of an especially powerful central authority does not mean that such dangers do not exist. It is the height of irony to me that "libertarians" today are often the most vocal supporters of fascism. One of the many reasons I won't be moving to New Hampshire anytime soon. >> >> >>>Profiling for terrorists is not racial profiling, it is terrorist >>>profiling. 70 year old grannies, white males in suits, soccer moms >>> >>> >>with >> >> >>>kids in the minivan are not in the profile. >>> >>>FYI: The Democrats invented 'racial' profiling. Hallowed liberal, >>>Robert Kennedy, as US Attorny General under his brother, in >>>investigating KKK anti-civil rights activities, ordered police and >>>national guard units across the South to profile white males at >>> >>> >>highway >> >> >>>roadblocks and other locations, on the logic that women and blacks >>> >>> >>and >> >> >>>other minorities could not belong to the KKK.... why was it okay >>> >>> >>then? >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>This is a red herring. >> >> > >On the contrary, the other significant instance of racial profiling in >20th century US was, of course, the Japanese internment during WWII >under the direction of the Democrat, FDR. > You still don't have a point. What FDR did does not justify the actions of the Bush administration. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:58:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F31309.3020903@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040712225822.21694.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gregory Propf wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > >It will be funny, for about five seconds. Then I'll have to admit to > >all the Birchers whose conspiracy theories about bankers, lawyers, > the > >ultra-rich, and communism, I disparage so much, that they were > right... > > > > > > > This is just an ad hominem. That the Birchers might have been > excessively vigilant in their theorizing about the dangers of an > especially powerful central authority does not mean that such dangers > do not exist. It is the height of irony to me that "libertarians" > today are often the most vocal supporters of fascism. One of the many > reasons I won't be moving to New Hampshire anytime soon. "fascism"? What, pray tell, is your definition of the moment for the word? Usually I hear such words spoken by communists when we libertarians object to their confiscation of property rights. > >>> > >>>FYI: The Democrats invented 'racial' profiling. Hallowed liberal, > >>>Robert Kennedy, as US Attorny General under his brother, in > >>>investigating KKK anti-civil rights activities, ordered police and > >>>national guard units across the South to profile white males at > >>>highway roadblocks and other locations, on the logic that women > >>> and blacks and > >>>other minorities could not belong to the KKK.... why was it okay > >>then? > >is is a red herring. > > > >On the contrary, the other significant instance of racial profiling > >in > >20th century US was, of course, the Japanese internment during WWII > >under the direction of the Democrat, FDR. > > > You still don't have a point. What FDR did does not justify the > actions of the Bush administration. You still don't understand the US. We are a Common Law nation. Under the Constitution, if something isn't specified, it doesn't mean you can't do it, or can do it, it means you first go by what historical precedents there are in the Common Law, particularly WRT individual liberties (and there is ample precedent in the Common Law in dealing with activities of traitors and enemy combatants, most of which are actually quite grisly, which is why the Geneva Conventions were created in the first place). The fact is that the actions of FDR and RFK, or of Bush, may be abhorrent to your particular morality, but they are not contrary to the Constitution, the Common Law, or the Geneva Conventions, because all recognise that violent insurgencies are a special case. Of course, I'm not surprised by your response. Your side of the table is always of a mind of "Do what I say, not what I do." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 23:18:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <00e201c46849$63d17830$c87f7ad5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20040712231839.76507.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Davies wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Tymes" > > Umm...Samantha said *the press* are talking about > it. > > Do you have a single specific instance of *the > Bush > > administration* talking about it? > > > As I understand it the head of the US Election > Assistance Commission floated > this idea a couple of weeks ago - see > > http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/06/26/election2004/21_17_566_25_04.txt > > and for a more recent comment see > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/ Ah, okay. Thanks. > Knowing the way politics works today I would say > that this is a trial > ballon. Time to write a lot of very angry letters to > make sure it gets shot > down spectacularly. Yep. A couple key phrases from those stories: > The government needs to establish guidelines for > canceling or rescheduling elections > asked the Justice Department's Office of Legal > Counsel to analyze what legal steps would be needed > to permit the postponement of the election were an > attack to take place. The question is just being asked. No proposals have been made. A legal review would seem to indicate that, according to the current laws, the answer is "you may only reschedule AFTER elections have been disrupted, and after that elections must happen as soon as the disruption ceases". For instance, New York City was holding elections on 9/11/2001; the attack shut down elections. It took a week or so to coordinate and recover; elections happened two weeks after the attack. Comparably, there would need to be an actual terrorist attack - not just the threat of one - on each and every election date, with each attack probably not delaying things longer than a month at most (trying to delay much longer would land election officials in jail for incompetence or corruption, depending on whether or not a deliberate delay could be proven), and even then a minor attack might not be enough (if, say, it happened in a state so solidly pro-Bush that, even if all the disrupted votes were for Kerry, Bush still would have won that state). But, yeah. I've already shot off letters to the President and to my state's election officers asking their positions on this. Hopefully, the issue either already has or soon will rise to the level that they'll add it to their autoresponders, and then at least we'll have an official response. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 23:23:44 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712225822.21694.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040712232344.55023.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > You still don't understand the US. We are a Common > Law nation. Try that theory in almost any court in the land, especially upper-level courts, and risk get tossed in jail for contempt of court. Common law has no legal weight, and this has been stressed by justices at all levels of the legal system. > Under > the Constitution, if something isn't specified, it > doesn't mean you > can't do it, or can do it, Nope. If it ain't explicitly illegal, it's legal. Default permissive. Many might-have-been criminals have gotten off scot free because the letter of the law didn't cover their actions, even though the spirit (and common precedent) clearly argued against it. Which is why prosecutors focus on expanding the meaning of the law, while defenders try to narrow it. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 23:26:35 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <04Jul12.154812-0400_edt.314968-15512+9423@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <20040712232635.82343.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > This is what they want to avoid here. If they feel > like George Bush is > going to be voted out of office because a large > section of the electorate > blames him for terrorism, they want the option to > postpone the election > until that groundswell has gone away. Pay careful > attention to the words > when they say "cancel" the election rather than > "retry" or "recover" the > election. Hmm. Not that I think it's a serious proposal yet, but...is anyone else getting eerie echoes to a recent Patriot Act amendment vote, where the House Republicans changed the voting rules by extending the voting period from its usual 15 minutes to 35, so they could persuade Representatives to switch their vote until they had enough to defeat the amendment? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 12 23:34:30 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> Message-ID: <20040712233430.77960.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Recall my third reaction: what should we do if > someone nukes Washington > on election day? As horrible as it sounds, our > society really does need > to answer this question. Umm...celebrate? ;) Just kidding. Among many other negative things (I've been to DC myself; it's a good city with good residents, whatever one has to say about its primary industry), this would be enough to delay the election. Although...what would happen if both Bush and Kerry were in town when it was nuked? (They'll probably be back home voting for at least part of the day, but jet trips to DC don't take 24 hours.) Technically, the election should resume as soon as possible - and since neither the Democratic nor the Republican parties are official parts of government, their sudden lack of candidates would have no legal bearing on how soon those elections could take place. There would be legal challenges for sure, but the letter of the law would throw the presidency open to third parties only in such a scenario (unless either major party managed to throw primaries together or otherwise agree on a new nominee, say the second/third place winner from this spring's primaries, in record time - which one or the other might well do if it was opportunistic and resourceful). From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 12 23:46:14 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:46:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712225822.21694.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040712225822.21694.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F322C6.5080507@cfl.rr.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Gregory Propf wrote: > > >>Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >>>It will be funny, for about five seconds. Then I'll have to admit to >>>all the Birchers whose conspiracy theories about bankers, lawyers, >>> >>> >>the >> >> >>>ultra-rich, and communism, I disparage so much, that they were >>> >>> >>right... >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>This is just an ad hominem. That the Birchers might have been >>excessively vigilant in their theorizing about the dangers of an >>especially powerful central authority does not mean that such dangers >>do not exist. It is the height of irony to me that "libertarians" >>today are often the most vocal supporters of fascism. One of the >> >> >many > > >>reasons I won't be moving to New Hampshire anytime soon. >> >> > >"fascism"? What, pray tell, is your definition of the moment for the >word? Usually I hear such words spoken by communists when we >libertarians object to their confiscation of property rights. > > > So now I'm a communist. More ad hominem. > >The fact is that the actions of FDR and RFK, or of Bush, may be >abhorrent to your particular morality, but they are not contrary to the >Constitution, the Common Law, or the Geneva Conventions, because all >recognise that violent insurgencies are a special case. > >Of course, I'm not surprised by your response. Your side of the table >is always of a mind of "Do what I say, not what I do." > > So we finally have it then? The admission that FDR and RFK were right. Oh how I waited for that admission. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 00:18:29 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713001830.72086.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Folks, pay good attention. The freest, most > advanced and most > powerful country on earth is headed in more > blatantly unfree directions > almost by the day. There is an extremely > unextropic vector gaining > in magnitude. You are absolutely right, Samantha. If the Bush administration does this, then it will be the biggest betrayal of America since Benedict Arnold. 200 years of sacrifice by patriots would have come to naught and I fear this would not be an isolated incident. To do something like this would set a dangerous precedent. It would be like the consul Marius marching his legions into Rome that set the precedent for the rise of the Caesars and the fall of the Roman republic into the hands of a long line of despotic emperors. I would rather see the deaths of 75% of all Americans, myself included, than to allow our collective soul to be so thoroughly corrupted and bastardized. Even suggesting something like this will be interpreted by me as an act of war by the Bush administration against the American people, the U.S. constitution, and the American way of life. Just after my 18th birthday I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC when I was assigned to the now defunct 7th infantry division. I can bear Bush insulting my courage, intelligence, strength and honor by forcing me to submit to unreasonable searches everytime I board a plane under the pretense of protecting me against bedouins with box cutters. After all it just costs me an hour of my time and stings my pride somewhat. But let him deny my country the right of democratic self-determination and I promise civil war. All I ever wanted out of life was to do biomedical research to help people live longer, healthier, and happier lives but the ghosts of Thomas Jefferson and every other patriot who has ever sacrificed money, time, or their life's blood on the altar of freedom would not let me sleep at night if I allowed such an overt perversion of everything America stands for to occur. Tread on me at your peril, Mr. Bush. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jul 13 00:41:17 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:41:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712232635.82343.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59DA3CDA-D465-11D8-AEC4-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Monday, July 12, 2004, at 07:26 pm, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Hmm. Not that I think it's a serious proposal yet, > but...is anyone else getting eerie echoes to a recent > Patriot Act amendment vote, where the House > Republicans changed the voting rules by extending the > voting period from its usual 15 minutes to 35, so they > could persuade Representatives to switch their vote > until they had enough to defeat the amendment? Yes. And the voting rules in Florida which were changed. And the voting machines which are being put in all over the country. The rules of how we vote are being rewritten by one political party. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 01:01:53 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:31:53 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> Nice points about the bath, me too on all those. What I *want* is a HUD that somehow just works without me wearing much in the way of gear (a pair of glasses might be ok). I want text to just float out there, invisible to everyone else. No holding a book, that's too much like hard work. I guess I'd need an input device of some kind; maybe little finger thimbles that let you point & click, somehow sensing where your fingers are in relation to the virtual display? Yeah! Emlyn On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:14:14 -0400, Brian Lee wrote: > I've dropped quite a few books and magazines in the tub. It might spoil your > first edition, signed Hemingway, but National Geographic dries out and is > still readable. If the corner of a palm or laptop gets dipped or if the unit > get splashed you could cause expensive damage and experience data loss. > > It seems like some of the epaper options would be bathtub safe. > > I want an ultrathin, plastic encased tablet or pda that can withstand a few > feet of immersion. > > BAL > > >From: Adrian Tymes > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Read All About It > >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >--- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > I'd rather have a rugged tablet or a wearable, > > > something I could drop or use > > > in the bathtub, with a battery life of 6-12 h. It > > > should be cheap, and back > > > itself up automatically, to not lose content ever. > > > >Hmm. My Palm Tungsten C (pocket PDA, so as portable > >as a wearable) has been through a few adventures with > >me (let's just say it has survived impact trauma - > >though the extra case I bought for it helped), though > >it needed repairs the first time (a tougher case would > >probably have prevented this; they didn't sell such > >then, but they do now), and seems to display the > >necessary battery life. It's a relatively high-end > >model, but I suspect one could find these properties > >in their sub-$100 models too. Backing it up is a > >matter of putting it in its cradle (so it can > >recharge) and pushing a button; since it has to > >recharge somehow, which requires establishing a > >physical connection (short-range beamed power is not > >viable for household use...is it?), I don't see it > >getting much simpler than this. > > > >Which leaves the issue of the bathtub. I've heard > >that from a number of people, even seen it in ads on > >TV, but...isn't that dangerous to paper? I mean, if > >you're willing to take care not to get the paper wet, > >then it's just like a PDA: merely being near water is > >a far cry from being in it. Dropping it in could ruin > >a book more likely than ruin a PDA, given the types of > >paper most books are made from. There's no serious > >electrocution hazard from most PDAs that I know of, if > >that's the concern. Am I not seeing something? > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Jul 13 01:15:17 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040712202026.47658.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A2B2A92-D46A-11D8-AEC4-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Monday, July 12, 2004, at 04:20 pm, Mike Lorrey wrote: > I imagine that the 'world leaders'that Kerry has the secret support of > (China? Syria? Palestine? France? Iran? North Korea?) would love to see > a major attack in a polling area which will be of strategic importance > in the election, like Florida, where records will be so badly damaged > by an attack that the entire state will not be able to be counted at > all in the electoral college, leading to a hung jury so that we are > unable to declare a winner in the election, a situation that the > Constitution is not built to handle. If one is declared by the Supreme > Court, the losing side will make further declarations (this time real) > of illegitimate reign and the US will lose further confidence on the > world stage. No need to wait for a foreign government or terrorists to do this, Mike. Our own government (the current administration and the republican party) are already on it! They have already installed electronic voting machines in Florida (and elsewhere around the country) that have NO VOTING RECORDS. Their "solution" to the recount problem is to eliminate all voting records and log files. Simple. No vote counts or recounts are possible. All we have to do is trust that whatever numbers come out of the machines are accurate, with no independent verification allowed. They are even fighting lawsuits to allow security experts to validate the machines, claiming that their software is proprietary and secret. In cases where machines were patched without permission (like in Arnold's California election), or where security requirements can't be met in time (like in Maryland where I am currently working), the elections proceed without following the required laws and regulations. There simply is no choice or alternate plan available. No accountability exists now. The voting records have already been destroyed in advance by our own government. (I don't know if people have heard about this, but it is extremely big news among security professionals. One security professional society even questioned whether it was ethical for any of its members to endorse or cooperate with such elections because they violate every tenet of computer security we try to promote.) -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 01:37:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040713001830.72086.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040713013758.68496.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Folks, pay good attention. The freest, most > > advanced and most > > powerful country on earth is headed in more > > blatantly unfree directions > > almost by the day. There is an extremely > > unextropic vector gaining > > in magnitude. > > You are absolutely right, Samantha. If the Bush > administration does this, then it will be the biggest > betrayal of America since Benedict Arnold. 200 years > of sacrifice by patriots would have come to naught and > I fear this would not be an isolated incident. To do > something like this would set a dangerous precedent. Absolute crap. Firstly, this isn't a democracy, it's a republican federation of republics, where defense of the nation is of paramount importance, not making sure everyone has their free fair and equal chance to screw things up with their vote. Secondly, as I said earlier, Lincoln already declared the Constitution broke in 1860. If you studied real history you'd know that we've been operating as a de facto occupation government since reconstruction, a government which has been operating in receivership since 1933 under admiralty law (which is why the flag in courtrooms are all gold fringed, contrary to US Code, their jurisdiction is admiralty and maritime law, administering the corporate state via the UCC.) The people of our Union have been declared belligerents for more than a century already. > It would be like the consul Marius marching his > legions into Rome that set the precedent for the rise > of the Caesars and the fall of the Roman republic into > the hands of a long line of despotic emperors. I would > rather see the deaths of 75% of all Americans, myself > included, than to allow our collective soul to be so > thoroughly corrupted and bastardized. Happened a long time ago, you just didn't notice. > Even suggesting > something like this will be interpreted by me as an > act of war by the Bush administration against the > American people, the U.S. constitution, and the > American way of life. Just after my 18th birthday I > swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of > the United States against all enemies foreign and > DOMESTIC when I was assigned to the now defunct 7th > infantry division. I swore the same oath. Who did you swear it to? Try reading Lysander Spooner's "No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority" if you want some interesting reading on oaths of office. As for declarations against the American people, have you ever wondered why, when you get a traffic ticket, your name is spelled in all capital letters? Because that isn't you, it is a corporate strawman the state invented when you were born. It names that person, not you, as a 'nom de guerre', or war name, for your act of belligerency against the corporate occupation state. The corporate state can't regulate you, a natural person, for violations of commercial contract (which is all that statute/color of law is) unless you accept responsibility for that corporate person. When did that happen? When you accepted a social security number, got a drivers license, applied for welfare or unemployment, or received any benefit from the current day government which is not delineated in the Constitution. You've given up your liberty for serfdom/POW status to the corporate state. > I can bear Bush insulting my > courage, intelligence, strength and honor by forcing > me to submit to unreasonable searches everytime I > board a plane under the pretense of protecting me > against bedouins with box cutters. After all it just > costs me an hour of my time and stings my pride > somewhat. But let him deny my country the right of > democratic self-determination and I promise civil war. That would free you. The Neutrality Act of 1940 guarantees it, if you rebel against the corporate state, you lose your 14th amendment US citizenship and regain your full State Citizenship. For those interested in researching it, try reading the post-Civil War Expatriation Act, then the Neutrality Act. Acts of rebellion and/or secession nullify your US citizenship. Mine is nullified. My little flag presentation to Killington in March did the trick. I'm now a NH National. > All I ever wanted out of life was to do biomedical > research to help people live longer, healthier, and > happier lives but the ghosts of Thomas Jefferson and > every other patriot who has ever sacrificed money, > time, or their life's blood on the altar of freedom > would not let me sleep at night if I allowed such an > overt perversion of everything America stands for to > occur. Tread on me at your peril, Mr. Bush. Ah, well, engage in interstate commerce at your own peril. There lies the power of US tyranny. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 13 03:06:17 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > What I *want* is a HUD that somehow just works > without me wearing much > in the way of gear (a pair of glasses might be ok). > I want text to > just float out there, invisible to everyone else. No > holding a book, > that's too much like hard work. > > I guess I'd need an input device of some kind; maybe > little finger > thimbles that let you point & click, somehow sensing > where your > fingers are in relation to the virtual display? > Yeah! How about a small touchpad on the side of the glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and "hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a little latency, so you can go from nothing to click without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass through.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 13 03:09:07 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <59DA3CDA-D465-11D8-AEC4-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <20040713030907.59014.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Monday, July 12, 2004, at 07:26 pm, Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > Hmm. Not that I think it's a serious proposal > yet, > > but...is anyone else getting eerie echoes to a > recent > > Patriot Act amendment vote, where the House > > Republicans changed the voting rules by extending > the > > voting period from its usual 15 minutes to 35, so > they > > could persuade Representatives to switch their > vote > > until they had enough to defeat the amendment? > > Yes. And the voting rules in Florida which were > changed. And the > voting machines which are being put in all over the > country. The rules > of how we vote are being rewritten by one political > party. Not all the states. California, at least, has banned the use of logless voting machines, and is making an effort to crack down on potential ways to hack them. But I don't think the Republicans as a whole are to blame. There are people responsible for this, and people fighting this, from both political parties. (Then again, the meaningful differences between Dems and Reps dwindled to few long ago.) From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 13 04:00:49 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:00:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are Nanobacteria Alive or Just Strange Crystals? Message-ID: <40F35E71.CE73AB2C@mindspring.com> Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. Science Frontiers, No. 154, Jul-Aug, 2004, p. 3 < http://www.science-frontiers.com > BIOLOGY Are Nanobacteria Alive or Just Strange Crystals? J.C. Venter in his shotgun-sequencing of marine microorganisms has proved that life can exist in almost unimaginable diversity. And we are only considering life-as-we-know-it. Venter's trawls through the Sargasso Sea may have also netted bits a [sic] organized matter that are not yet recognized as being alive---they are just *too small* to live. The generally agreed upon domain of life is limited to entities larger than 140 nanometers (140 x 10^-9 meter). It is thought that anything smaller would not be roomy enough for the DNA and proteins essential for life's functions. However, the history of science is littered with overturned assumptions. Therefore, we must consider the possible existence of nanobacteria---lifeforms smaller than 140 nanometers. In doing this we are opposed by the opinion of J. Maniloff, University of Rochester, such an inquiry "...is the cold fusion of microbiology." (This may be a bad metaphor considering the last item in SF#153 announcing the possible mainstream resuscitation of cold fusion!) Fossils of nanobacteria have been claimed to exist in ancient rocks and even in meteorites thought to have come from Mars. The latest evidence for the existence of nanobacteria---*live* nanobacteria---comes from an unexpected source: diseased human arteries! Such is claimed by J. Lieske and a team of doctors at the Mayo Clinic. Lieske et al have isolated tiny cell-like structures that self-replicate in a culture medium. They can be identified with an antibody and DNA stain. But skeptics say they will remain unconvinced until DNA unique to these supposed *impossibly small* life forms is described. (Hogan, Jenny; "Are Nanobacteria Alive or Just Strange Crystals?" *New Scientist*, p. 6, May 22, 2004) Comments. The nanobacteria question takes us to the borderline between life and non-life. Viruses are usually considered alive, but they cannot self-replicate. Crystals can self-replicate but no one thinks quartz crystals are alive. Could nanobacteria be an unrecognized form of matter occupying that limbo between what we arbitrarily define as living and non-living? Does this biological limbo really exist? Does non-life grade smoothly into life such that our defining these two states of matter is an exercise in futility? Finally, we can imagine that life is a universal property of matter--- sometimes obvious, other times cryptic. We can even imagine that dark matter, which still eludes our instruments but yet pervades the universe, is pregnant with life. [Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual subscription: $8.00.] -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 05:39:24 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <20040712185902.35940.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Occasionally one stumbles over an insight which has for some time proven elusive, even though the insight is so obvious it illicits in the suddenly enlightened the response, "well, DUH!" I had a well-duh moment this evening. Since the Long Now talk by Dr. Jill Tarter, I have been pondering the question of how an advanced society can ever re-establish some technological equilibrium. This disturbed me as a child when I read Asimov's Foundation. Here was a technologically advanced society that was retrogressing, or at least not progressing. I did not have the vocabulary or grokitudinosity to understand the singularity then, but even then I had a hard time imagining an advanced society that was not moving progressing. At Dr. Tarter's lecture, that same question hit me: intelligence either devours itself, or goes to singularity, or establishes technological stability somehow. I could not imagine how technological stability or equilibrium could ever come about. This evening's insight was on why it is I have such a hard time imagining advance tech equilibrium: on this planet, every society that is currently in or has ever reached technological equilibrium is primitive! Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? spike From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 13 06:09:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040713060938.95740.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > Has > anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an > advanced > society can establish pre-singularity technological > equilibrium? I can think of one way, but it only works over short timespans, and it's unlikely. Basically, all scientists in the world get massively unlucky at the same time. All the major research projects run into dead ends, false leads, and (unknown to them) research paths already investigated by others. But even if this does happen, it won't be long before someone happens across a good, previously unexplored idea, and off the world goes again. All other possibilities I see couldn't plausibly happen for a long enough time that at least one of true AI or molecular assembly is almost guaranteed to be realized first. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 06:20:08 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:50:08 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc04071223203cab8cd4@mail.gmail.com> There could easily be plateaus. For example, look at human history and you'll see many plateaus... the jump from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, for instance, is a story of a technological ramp up which eventually settles down; a plateau on either side of the rise. So maybe there's some kind of technical "closure" around machines, computers & information processing, and global communications technologies, that we haven't quite reached yet but are going to reach some time soonish. So the spike never happens, it is an S instead. I'm not sure I believe it, but it's sort of plausible. The only problem is that yes, our history is one of plateaus, but they are shorter and shorter, with an exponential supercurve across the collection. Emlyn On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Occasionally one stumbles over an insight which has > for some time proven elusive, even though the insight > is so obvious it illicits in the suddenly enlightened > the response, "well, DUH!" > > I had a well-duh moment this evening. Since the Long > Now talk by Dr. Jill Tarter, I have been pondering the > question of how an advanced society can ever re-establish > some technological equilibrium. > > This disturbed me as a child when I read Asimov's > Foundation. Here was a technologically advanced society > that was retrogressing, or at least not progressing. > I did not have the vocabulary or grokitudinosity to > understand the singularity then, but even then I had > a hard time imagining an advanced society that was > not moving progressing. > > At Dr. Tarter's lecture, that same question hit me: > intelligence either devours itself, or goes to singularity, > or establishes technological stability somehow. I could > not imagine how technological stability or equilibrium > could ever come about. > > This evening's insight was on why it is I have such > a hard time imagining advance tech equilibrium: on this > planet, every society that is currently in or has ever > reached technological equilibrium is primitive! > > Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has > anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced > society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jul 13 07:03:43 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:03:43 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040713070343.GA1141@leitl.org> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 10:31:53AM +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Nice points about the bath, me too on all those. OLED and polymer electronics + wireless + thin-film battery should be there in a half decade, in a sufficiently cheap package. > What I *want* is a HUD that somehow just works without me wearing much > in the way of gear (a pair of glasses might be ok). I want text to > just float out there, invisible to everyone else. No holding a book, > that's too much like hard work. Lazy, lazy, lazy :) > I guess I'd need an input device of some kind; maybe little finger > thimbles that let you point & click, somehow sensing where your > fingers are in relation to the virtual display? Yeah! It is not that difficult to do realtime fingertip tracking from video alone. HUDs are naturally see-through, even no need for translucency. The only thing amazing me that I'm waiting for this for >15 years, all the way since VR craze and Private Eye. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Tue Jul 13 07:15:03 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:03 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40F38BF7.4090006@paradise.net.nz> Spike wrote: > every society that is currently in or has ever > reached technological equilibrium is primitive! > > Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has > anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced > society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? Well, I was thinking about a kind of technological equilibrium imposed by an increasing cost of energy (as we are seeing today). Progress would be too expensive, because simply staying still (surviving) would take everyone's time. But then...before we reached that state we'd start doing research to make energy cheaper. From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jul 13 08:28:54 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:28:54 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:06:17PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > How about a small touchpad on the side of the > glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and > "hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the > pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a > little latency, so you can go from nothing to click > without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass > through.) Fails even armchair usability tests. Gestures are easier. One could also think about a hand mouse, with scroll wheel(s), thumb pad area, etc. UWB should be low enough power for sufficiently long battery time at the range. Don't forget voice input, too, it's easier than limb tracking from video. I'm not sure whether using immobile CPU for crunch will fly, it will restrict usability outside of home. Otoh, there's always the disparity how much crunch you can get for the given battery time. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 13 18:25:27 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:25:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <40F42917.8050207@optusnet.com.au> Since you'd be wearing glasses anyway, how about picking up jaw muscle movements and/or humming notes for control. You would only need a few different controls, and this would let you read hands-free. Would also be useful for paralysis victims. -david Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:06:17PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > >>How about a small touchpad on the side of the >>glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and >>"hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the >>pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a >>little latency, so you can go from nothing to click >>without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass >>through.) > > > Fails even armchair usability tests. Gestures are easier. One could also > think about a hand mouse, with scroll wheel(s), thumb pad area, etc. UWB > should be low enough power for sufficiently long battery time at the range. > > Don't forget voice input, too, it's easier than limb tracking from video. > I'm not sure whether using immobile CPU for crunch will fly, it will restrict > usability outside of home. > > Otoh, there's always the disparity how much crunch you can get for the given > battery time. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emerson at singinst.org Tue Jul 13 11:07:49 2004 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:07:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SIAI Announces $10K Challenge Grant Message-ID: <200407131107.i6DB7rW27527@tick.javien.com> We are pleased to announce the 2004 $10,000 Challenge Grant for the continued research of Research Fellow Eliezer Yudkowsky. All contributions toward the Challenge Grant will be matched dollar for dollar. If we meet the entire Challenge, the resulting $20,000 will sponsor Yudkowsky's full-time research on Friendly AI theory until at least November 2005. The Challenge will run until October 9th. http://www.singinst.org/challenge-grant-04.html -- Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ Suite 106 PMB #12 4290 Bells Ferry Road Kennesaw, GA 30144 emerson at singinst.org / (417) 840-5968 The SIAI Voice - Our Free Bulletin: http://www.singinst.org/news/subscribe.html From amara at amara.com Tue Jul 13 12:46:29 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: Samantha: >I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up here. The US press >is full of stories about possibly suspending US presidential elections >if there is significant terrorism. This particular news was on the Italian radio this morning. The reaction from my immediate environment is that of sadness, words of 'looks like a dictatorship' and so on. The people around me also asked questions about what is the true lifetime of a democracy, because it looks like an incredibly fragile thing now, with the US has having had demonstrated the longest democratic life. Since I am still hoping to vote in the US elections from here, I have a political question for you US citizens, who have more information regarding Kerry. Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? (I think you know what I mean). Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Be glad for life because it gives you the chance to love and to work and to look up at the stars." -- Henry Van Dyke From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 12:04:04 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:34:04 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <40F42917.8050207@optusnet.com.au> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> <40F42917.8050207@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <710b78fc04071305044a58b6f0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:25:27 +0100, David wrote: > Since you'd be wearing glasses anyway, how about picking up jaw muscle > movements and/or humming notes for control. You would only need a few > different controls, and this would let you read hands-free. Would also > be useful for paralysis victims. > > -david > I was just watching Australian Idol... humming notes would be a *bad* idea. People's PCs would be going bezerk! OTOH, basic computer use training courses would be replaced by singing lessons, which would be lucrative for my household, so I say go for it! > Eugen Leitl wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:06:17PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > >>How about a small touchpad on the side of the > >>glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and > >>"hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the > >>pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a > >>little latency, so you can go from nothing to click > >>without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass > >>through.) > > > > > > Fails even armchair usability tests. Gestures are easier. One could also > > think about a hand mouse, with scroll wheel(s), thumb pad area, etc. UWB > > should be low enough power for sufficiently long battery time at the range. > > > > Don't forget voice input, too, it's easier than limb tracking from video. > > I'm not sure whether using immobile CPU for crunch will fly, it will restrict > > usability outside of home. If you are already wearing some kind of hud, why not add a mini camera, then track eye movements for the cursor? That's already being done for other applications. > > > > Otoh, there's always the disparity how much crunch you can get for the given > > battery time. > > Take a look at the latest ipaqs from HP... tiny, light, pretty good processors, and loooong battery life (a guy who works with me and has one claims it can do 12 hours of constant usage). Emlyn From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 12:13:42 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:43:42 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04071305044a58b6f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> <40F42917.8050207@optusnet.com.au> <710b78fc04071305044a58b6f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0407130513369f6e5e@mail.gmail.com> Actually, this pocket sized hologram projector might be the ticket... http://holoprojector.notlong.com (of course, it's not going to be on the market for a few years at least) Emlyn On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:34:04 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:25:27 +0100, David wrote: > > Since you'd be wearing glasses anyway, how about picking up jaw muscle > > movements and/or humming notes for control. You would only need a few > > different controls, and this would let you read hands-free. Would also > > be useful for paralysis victims. > > > > -david > > > > I was just watching Australian Idol... humming notes would be a *bad* > idea. People's PCs would be going bezerk! OTOH, basic computer use > training courses would be replaced by singing lessons, which would be > lucrative for my household, so I say go for it! > > > Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:06:17PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > > > > >>How about a small touchpad on the side of the > > >>glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and > > >>"hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the > > >>pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a > > >>little latency, so you can go from nothing to click > > >>without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass > > >>through.) > > > > > > > > > Fails even armchair usability tests. Gestures are easier. One could also > > > think about a hand mouse, with scroll wheel(s), thumb pad area, etc. UWB > > > should be low enough power for sufficiently long battery time at the range. > > > > > > Don't forget voice input, too, it's easier than limb tracking from video. > > > I'm not sure whether using immobile CPU for crunch will fly, it will restrict > > > usability outside of home. > > If you are already wearing some kind of hud, why not add a mini > camera, then track eye movements for the cursor? That's already being > done for other applications. > > > > > > > Otoh, there's always the disparity how much crunch you can get for the given > > > battery time. > > > > > Take a look at the latest ipaqs from HP... tiny, light, pretty good > processors, and loooong battery life (a guy who works with me and has > one claims it can do 12 hours of constant usage). > > Emlyn > -- Emlyn From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 12:16:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:46:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407130513369f6e5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0407121801fcf13e2@mail.gmail.com> <20040713030617.95057.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <20040713082854.GG1141@leitl.org> <40F42917.8050207@optusnet.com.au> <710b78fc04071305044a58b6f0@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0407130513369f6e5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04071305164e493851@mail.gmail.com> Or see here for eye-tracking software. Unfortunately, their core ActiveX control is not yet "productified" [sic]... http://www.tobii.se/ Emlyn On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:43:42 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Actually, this pocket sized hologram projector might be the ticket... > > http://holoprojector.notlong.com > > (of course, it's not going to be on the market for a few years at least) > Emlyn > > > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:34:04 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:25:27 +0100, David wrote: > > > Since you'd be wearing glasses anyway, how about picking up jaw muscle > > > movements and/or humming notes for control. You would only need a few > > > different controls, and this would let you read hands-free. Would also > > > be useful for paralysis victims. > > > > > > -david > > > > > > > I was just watching Australian Idol... humming notes would be a *bad* > > idea. People's PCs would be going bezerk! OTOH, basic computer use > > training courses would be replaced by singing lessons, which would be > > lucrative for my household, so I say go for it! > > > > > Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:06:17PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>How about a small touchpad on the side of the > > > >>glasses? Big enough to sense up/down/left/right and > > > >>"hard" (finger pressing so much it covers most of the > > > >>pad), which could be a click. (Though you'd want a > > > >>little latency, so you can go from nothing to click > > > >>without acting on the up/down/left/right you'd pass > > > >>through.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Fails even armchair usability tests. Gestures are easier. One could also > > > > think about a hand mouse, with scroll wheel(s), thumb pad area, etc. UWB > > > > should be low enough power for sufficiently long battery time at the range. > > > > > > > > Don't forget voice input, too, it's easier than limb tracking from video. > > > > I'm not sure whether using immobile CPU for crunch will fly, it will restrict > > > > usability outside of home. > > > > If you are already wearing some kind of hud, why not add a mini > > camera, then track eye movements for the cursor? That's already being > > done for other applications. > > > > > > > > > > Otoh, there's always the disparity how much crunch you can get for the given > > > > battery time. > > > > > > > > Take a look at the latest ipaqs from HP... tiny, light, pretty good > > processors, and loooong battery life (a guy who works with me and has > > one claims it can do 12 hours of constant usage). > > > > Emlyn > > > > > -- > Emlyn > From amara at amara.com Tue Jul 13 14:11:41 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:11:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Read All About It Message-ID: Emlyn: >I was just watching Australian Idol... humming notes would be a *bad* >>idea. People's PCs would be going bezerk! OTOH, basic computer use >training courses would be replaced by singing lessons, which would be >lucrative for my household, so I say go for it! I would say that voice training is almost necessary for those people using mostly voice input devices. When I was working through all of my repetitive strain injuries ten years ago, the 'new' solution offered at the time to the RSI folks was the new voice-input devices and software (I have a 1995 DragonDictate that runs on a 486 machine, for example), until those people started getting injured voice-boxes too! So then the therapists started suggesting that anyone using voice input go through the same voice training as singers, in order to lessen the risk of voice injury. I haven't followed the RSI field in a while, but i think that this is still good advice. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 13:23:51 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:23:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:34:30 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Although...what would happen if both Bush and Kerry >were in town when it was nuked? (They'll probably be >back home voting for at least part of the day, but jet >trips to DC don't take 24 hours.) Technically, the >election should resume as soon as possible - and >since neither the Democratic nor the Republican >parties are official parts of government, their sudden >lack of candidates would have no legal bearing on how >soon those elections could take place. There would be >legal challenges for sure, but the letter of the law >would throw the presidency open to third parties only >in such a scenario (unless either major party managed >to throw primaries together or otherwise agree on a >new nominee, say the second/third place winner from >this spring's primaries, in record time - which one or >the other might well do if it was opportunistic and >resourceful). So only Nader would be left on the ballots? I guess he finally has a scenario for election success. My guess is that if DC got nuked, Cheney would not be there. Bush and Cheney are rarely together these days. So Cheney would become president and declare martial law. Then new elections would be scheduled and carried out. BAL From dgc at cox.net Tue Jul 13 13:29:58 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:29:58 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40F3E3D6.9070105@cox.net> Spike wrote: > >This evening's insight was on why it is I have such >a hard time imagining advance tech equilibrium: on this >planet, every society that is currently in or has ever >reached technological equilibrium is primitive! > >Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has >anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced >society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? > > > As I understand it, most historians consider that several complex societies stagnated. This includes the Japanese Shogunate, the Chinese imperium, society in India during several periods, and Egypt. In each case, the society was highly advanced relative to the rest of the earth at the time it went static. These societies went static because they had each achieved perfection by their own definitions. In several cases the society in question was the most technologically advanced society on the planet when stasis occurred. In each case the society was eventually kicked out of stasis by external forces. In the Japanese case, the external force was fairly benign, and the Japanese essentially decided that they had to adapt. In the Chinese and several of the Indian cases, the external force was brutal invasion and war. The major consequence of each society that achieved stasis was massive environmental damage as the land reached the bitter edge of its carrying capacity. The only exception to this that I know of was ancient Egypt, where the annual Nile flood renewed the arable land. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 13:55:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040713135511.26349.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote:> > Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has > anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced > society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? Pretty simple: the species is unwilling to give up living on planets in humaniform appearance. This would limit the deconstruction of planets to build j brains, s brains, m brains, ringworlds, among other structures in the species star system. They would still be able to develop, should they survive it, advanced nanotechnology, significant IA and other augmentations, practical immortality, but would not ascend, transcend, or otherwise abandon human form. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:02:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713140252.16035.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Samantha: > >I am surprised this topic hasn't already come up here. The US > press > >is full of stories about possibly suspending US presidential > elections > >if there is significant terrorism. > > This particular news was on the Italian radio this morning. The > reaction from my immediate environment is that of sadness, words of > 'looks like a dictatorship' and so on. The people around me also > asked > questions about what is the true lifetime of a democracy, because it > looks like an incredibly fragile thing now, with the US has having > had > demonstrated the longest democratic life. > > Since I am still hoping to vote in the US elections from here, I have > a political question for you US citizens, who have more information > regarding Kerry. Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the > Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? (I think you know > what I mean). No, he'll do some post-Vietnamesque pullouts, make some Carter-esque apologies to the muslim people, American morale will hit the skids, at which point the bedouin psyche will declare victory at hand and attacks upon the US inside our borders will escalate. In response, Kerry will try to confiscate all private firearms and civil war will erupt. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 14:07:19 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:07:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <40F38BF7.4090006@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <003b01c468e2$b64a3270$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > paul.bridger > Spike wrote: > > every society that is currently in or has ever > > reached technological equilibrium is primitive! ... > > Well, I was thinking about a kind of technological > equilibrium imposed by an > increasing cost of energy (as we are seeing today). Progress > would be too > expensive, because simply staying still (surviving) would > take everyone's time. > But then...before we reached that state we'd start doing > research to make > energy cheaper. Ja I was thinking an major energy shortage would be a huge technology driver. It would force us to start thinking again. We have a vast array of cool new technologies that are merely waiting for reduced risk of oil again dropping below 30 bucks a barrel. The best mechanism I can think of for technological stasis would be excessive comfort, such as we now suffer. spike From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 14:09:55 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:09:55 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] In Memory of Joe Gold of Gold's Gym and World Gym Message-ID: <185250-22004721314955900@M2W038.mail2web.com> "LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Joe Gold, a bodybuilding pioneer who founded a beachside gym made famous by then-bodybuilder Arnold Schwarzenegger, has died. He was 82." "Gold founded his first gym in 1965 in the Venice area of Los Angeles." Joe Gold was clever, witty, and illustrious. He was also a flirt, puckish, and hard-nosed about anyone misbehaving in his gym. I remember many occasions when Joe wheeled himself over to some guy who was bothering me and gave him what for. I also remember him having long conversations with the fiercely loyal bodybuilders who were far beyond graying at the temple and cavernous skin. I enjoyed spending two, or so, years at Joe's new gym in Marina del Rey, California - saying hi to him several times a week and knowing that I was in the presence of a real icon. "In 1968, when I came to America, Gold's Gym was the gym where I first went to work out. Joe looked after me and encouraged me, and his dry sense of humor was a daily feature of the gym," Schwarzenegger said. I also remember Arnold at the gym. I know that at one time they - Joe and Arnold - had a falling out. But they made up. I'd often scan the parking lot to see if Arnold's car was there so I could witness a few-in-a-lifetime situation - Arnold and Joe chatting about the past. I worked out next to Arnold one time. We had a few words back and forth - he was kind, charming, and all too fabulous, really. It also reminded me of the day Max and I goofed off with Dana Carvey - pitching ideas to him about stem cell cloning and the "Church Lady." But that is another story ... Joe Gold's personal gym in Marina del Rey, "World Gym" (not a franchise like the Gold's Gym he sold for franchising) ? is a ?one and only." Yes, I do miss going there, being among the old-timers and the new-timers, men and women who are serous about their athletics. Yet it all this stays with me -- being in the environment of such excellence in form and knowledge - fitness and strength I could not have learned elsewhere and to such a degree. Part of that excellence of character was instilled in Dr. Roy Walford, a committed "World Gym" advocate (who preferred it over the Venice Beach Gold's Gym once owned by Joe Gold before the franchising). Roy Walford encouraged his friends to go to World, if not only for a special experience of Mr. Joe Gold himself! Joe Gold was a tough guy and a sweetheart - always looking for a smiling face and matching it. Natasha Vita-More http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/07/13/obit.gold.ap/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 14:11:10 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:11:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c468e3$3fbe7d90$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps ... > ...I have a political question for you US citizens, who have more information > regarding Kerry. Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the > Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? (I think you know > what I mean). > > Amara Amara, as in the last election, I can't tell the two major candidates apart. Even more puzzling this time is trying to figure out which candidate is most likely to beat Bush and Kerry. spike From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Tue Jul 13 14:14:58 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:14:58 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040713030907.59014.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040713030907.59014.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04Jul13.101458-0400_edt.311801-3707+2822@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Adrian Tymes writes: > Not all the states. California, at least, has banned > the use of logless voting machines, and is making an > effort to crack down on potential ways to hack them. Yes. California leads the way here. I think this was in part due to Diebold getting caught sneaking undocumented upgrades into production voting machines and then lying about it. It demonstrated how unreliable the system is, and that the lack of audit logs makes it impossible to figure out what really happened. I.E., they already got stung by the lack of logs when something happened and they couldn't go back and figure out what. I am afraid that most states won't realize the importance of this until they, too, are directly harmed by the lack of logs. Then they will want them. > But I don't think the Republicans as a whole are to > blame. There are people responsible for this, and > people fighting this, from both political parties. Republicans tend to own all the companies pushing these machines, and all the debates here in Washington seem to roughly divided by party lines. Florida is the key to this debate. Democrats who supported recounts in Florida want that ability in the future. Republicans who opposed recounts in Florida want to prevent that possibility in the future. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:22:40 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <40F38BF7.4090006@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <20040713142240.63731.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- "paul.bridger" wrote: > Spike wrote: > > every society that is currently in or has ever > > reached technological equilibrium is primitive! > > > > Well, duh. Obviously. Has anyone a counterexample? Has > > anyone a suggestion, or a mechanism for how an advanced > > society can establish pre-singularity technological equilibrium? > > Well, I was thinking about a kind of technological equilibrium > imposed by an > increasing cost of energy (as we are seeing today). Progress would be > too expensive, because simply staying still (surviving) would take > everyone's time. > But then...before we reached that state we'd start doing research to > make energy cheaper. We're always doing such research, though funding varies over time, and you are forgetting completely the consumption end. Making consumption more efficient for all practical purposes not only cheapens energy, it extends supplies. One new technology that is promising in this is the tungsten lattice radiator technology, that extracts quanta of energy from waste heat. Contrary to the claims of the luddite chicken littles, we produce more GDP per unit of energy (inflation adjusted) than at any point in history. Now, given projections of eventual scarcity, this necessitates progress or willful regression. We need an energy source which is unlimited in practical terms fusion from seawater is pretty good. Some form of zero point extraction, perhaps using pseudo-singularities of some type, would be the ultimate solution. When such energy sources are attained, the primary limitation in a planetary environment is the ability of the environment to deal with the waste heat (the Puppeteer Problem). Skyhooks would be helpful in this, but a culture may have to accept melting of polar ice caps. Depends on how the atmospheric model settles out. With the end of use of fossil fuels, CO2 levels will plummet, and given the CO2/thermal curve, an ice age would be in the offing without a significant expansion in waste heat production planet wide. Heavy settlement of sub-polar areas would be necessary. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Tue Jul 13 15:28:53 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:53 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04Jul13.112853-0400_edt.310933-28853+4524@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Amara Graps writes: > I would say that voice training is almost necessary for those people > using mostly voice input devices. Yes. When I worked at IBM, the people developing and testing the voice input systems couldn't work on them regularly. They became hoarse after a full day of constant talking, and had to recover with a couple of days not talking. They avoided using the system unless they had to use it for testing. They preferred to work without the voice input. Although it sounds cools in a science-fictiony way, voice interface is not very usable. It would be good for public kiosks and small transactions, but not for working all day. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 13 16:17:17 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:17:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] re: Saturn a Comet Nursery? Message-ID: <40F40B0D.D5A3A8@mindspring.com> > Bill asked: > >>How would they build up to comet size inside Saturn's > >>Roche limit and then > >>escape Saturn's gravity intact when they're just > >>loosely packed balls of ice > >>and rock? > > Lawrie answered: > >They could be flexible during formation. They aren't > >that big, after all. Sort of cosmic slush-puppies. > > Bill added > Too much flexibility is the problem. > > Another problem I didn't mention earlier is that Saturn's > rings just don't have a lot of material in them. If the > current rate of dissipation is normal, they're quite young > and will be gone relatively soon. Hi, Experts (below) may have answers for clumping _and_ resupply of ring-material (below) but it's a bit iffy att. If we include the rings of Jupiter, Neptune and Uranus - all big scoopers-up of debris and incoming stuff - as possible comet sources, then 1) ice-clumping (below) _mite_ give needed cohesion. 2) another scenario is chemical bonding of Saturnian clumps (under radiation effects) partially reproducing "rock-formation" [which on Earth needs heat and pressure and a _long_ time]. An advantage of that idea is it _could_ give you out-gassing jets to move them out of orbit, without tides or "Lorenz resonances" (below). cheers Ray < http://www-astro.physics.uiowa.edu/~lam/research/rings/ > Recent models for the formation of the rings all depend on infrequent, high speed collisions between satellites and outside interlopers. Dones (1991) suggests a particularly large event for the formation of Saturn's rings. Colwell and Esposito (1992a,b) explore the statistics of a cascade of smaller collisions for the rings of Uranus and Neptune. The central contribution of this poster is to suggest that tidal evolution of satellite orbits can serve the function of moving satellites into the Roche zone from outside. http://pds-rings.arc.nasa.gov/reference/abstracts/burns1985_01.html Specific 'Lorentz' resonances, corresponding to particular spatial periodicities in the magnetic field, occur on either side of synchronous orbit. Lorentz resonance locations and strengths for the Jovian and Saturnian rings are described http://pds-rings.arc.nasa.gov/saturn/saturn.html The particles in Saturn's rings are composed primarily of water ice and range from microns to meters in size. The rings show a tremendous amount of structure on all scales; some of this structure is related to gravitational perturbations by Saturn's many moons, but much of it remains unexplained. RD -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From amara at amara.com Tue Jul 13 18:26:01 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:26:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] near-immortality for the wealthy ? (commentary by J. Shirley) Message-ID: This is from John Shirley's blog at the boing-boing site. His perspective is one from to which to form answers to and think about, because I think this is a typical perspective. There should be good answers for this perspective (economies of scale, for example). If it is not in any of the faqs now, perhaps it should be. http://www.boingboing.net/ (go to the right side of the page) "Of course with billions of dollars fueling research, a means to change faces, to make them look genuinely younger in a more natural-appearing way, will eventually be found, and it'll be found way before a cure for AIDS or cancer. Probably you'll get a new face the way you'll get a new inner organ; it'll be seeded from a dna sample, grown in a vat. Some guy will have the job of tending the face vats. Hundreds of young faces waiting to be transplanted to replace surgically removed older faces--hundreds of faces floating in the face vats, staring up at him. Will the job tend to lead to madness, suicide? It'll happen. My opinion is that near-immortality, through cellular regeneration, obviating the need for cosmetic surgery, will become a reality too. (Eg, at this company, perhaps.) But, as I wrote in one of my daily blogs not long ago, immortality will be only for people who have money. People who, mostly, do not deserve immortality will have it because the treatment will cost tens of millions and will be kept expensive in our overpopulated world. Yes, Michael Jackson will be alive in three hundred years. Paris Hilton, God help us, alive in four hundred years, looking young. Can you imagine? Donald Trump alive in two hundred years but Jimmy Carter dead? Rupert Murdock will be alive in three hundred years but those heroic fellows working for Doctors Without Borders--they'll be dead. The people who deserve some measure of immortality usually won't get it. Social parasites will be forever. And since people are getting MORE AND MORE IGNORANT and illiterate, they will come to regard such people as GODS. Worshipping Paris Hilton!" -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From amara at amara.com Tue Jul 13 18:29:26 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:29:26 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Saturn: A comet nursery? Message-ID: By what mechanism would the 'comets' from the Saturn 'comet nursery' escape, then? Amara From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Jul 13 17:52:20 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:52:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] near-immortality for the wealthy ? (commentary by J. Shirley) Message-ID: <1089741140.18708@whirlwind.he.net> > People who, mostly, do not deserve immortality will have it > because the treatment will cost tens of millions and will be kept > expensive in our overpopulated world. Yes, Michael Jackson will be > alive in three hundred years. Paris Hilton, God help us, alive in four > hundred years, looking young. Can you imagine? Donald Trump alive in > two hundred years but Jimmy Carter dead? Rupert Murdock will be alive > in three hundred years but those heroic fellows working for Doctors > Without Borders--they'll be dead. The people who deserve some measure > of immortality usually won't get it. Social parasites will be forever. > And since people are getting MORE AND MORE IGNORANT and illiterate, > they will come to regard such people as GODS. Worshipping Paris > Hilton!" This is a very weak argument on a great many levels. 1.) The vast majority of the wealthy are nothing like the carefully selected caricatures he uses as examples. Most are exceptionally disciplined and hardworking but otherwise normal people. Roughly 3 out of 4 wealthy people in the US alive at any point in time bootstrapped from nothing. 2.) His notion of who does and doesn't "deserve" immortality is dubious, arbitrary, and isn't worthy of consideration in any case. 3.) You won't have to stay alive very long for immortality treatments to become dirt cheap. If you don't drop dead shortly after they come out, virtually everyone will be able to reap the same benefits. Wealthy people pay the cost of making medical technology ubiquitous. Even in our crappy machine shop manufacturing world today it takes only a few years for state-of-the-art medicine to become widely available. 4.) It should be quite easy to get a loan for immortality treatments. Think about it. 5.) Longevity will be the great equalizer. Stupid people will eventually go broke. It happens with great frequency within our normal lifespans as it is. 6.) I'm guessing that as people live longer they'll become wiser and make better decisions on average. Experience has that affect. Do you think the Paris Hilton of now will be the Paris Hilton of 70 years in the future? I think not. She may still be insufferable, but there would be a measurable improvement in character, which might be further improved in another 70 years. In short, I reject the argument as shallow and absurd on many levels. j. andrew rogers From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Jul 13 18:26:00 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:26:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Amara Graps wrote: > This particular news was on the Italian radio this morning. The > reaction from my immediate environment is that of sadness, words of > 'looks like a dictatorship' and so on. The people around me also asked > questions about what is the true lifetime of a democracy, because it > looks like an incredibly fragile thing now, with the US has having had > demonstrated the longest democratic life. Its not that bad, and people are over-reacting. The entire range of contingencies is being investigated -- a legitimate exercise for the government -- and the media is using it whip up some FUD. As you probably know, you might take European media with a grain of salt. The extreme spin and propaganda-ish feel of the European media when it comes to covering anything in the US is a travesty and quite honestly the worst of anywhere in the modern world in my experience. Asian coverage, for example, is far more balanced even in countries that aren't particularly friendly with the US. It wouldn't annoy me nearly as much if there was a broad diversity of competing viewpoints in European media (rather than the pervasive and heavy slant) keeping each other honest, but that doesn't seem to be the case in any practical sense, at least not like it is elsewhere. > Since I am still hoping to vote in the US elections from here, I have > a political question for you US citizens, who have more information > regarding Kerry. Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the > Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? (I think you know > what I mean). Kerry is an empty suit who spends most of his time fighting his own doppelganger. He is an absolutely lousy candidate and won't attract votes from much more than the party-bots. If that's the best they can come up with, the Democratic Party is dead and doesn't even know it yet. Doubtful he'll make things better even under the most optimistic circumstances. There really isn't much to vote for in this election. j. andrew rogers From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 13 18:44:24 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Life extension housing Message-ID: <20040713184425.61903.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Just so you know, y'all have corrupted my mom. ;) She's been looking into gerontology of late, I suspect inspired in part by my descriptions of Extropian philosophy. From said studies, she's come up with a house design filled with features that ameliorate the practical negative effects of aging that senior citizens face today, with the apparent result that a number of common triggers of sudden negative health - slips and falls, over-exertion to compensate for joints that no longer work, and so forth - are greatly reduced, if not eliminated. The aim is to give 85-90 year olds at least the same quality of life they had at 55-60. (Or more precisely, allow 55-60 year olds to move in and maintain their quality of life for 30 years, rather than have it degrade as normally happens.) The project doesn't make any mention of the Singularity or related concepts, but one who believes that will happen this side of 2040 might look to this as a way to increase the odds of survival until then, if old age would otherwise be a concern. To those of you who've been looking to fund the Methuselah Mouse project, I wonder...have you come across some funders who like the concept but are nervous about investing in new technology to deliver it? If so, might they be willing to get their feet wet with a mostly conventional tech (there is some high tech here, like sensors in the walls and gait monitors to provide early warning of certain problems, but even that's mostly stuff already being used in hospitals) project, and if that goes well then they might donate to MM? Apparently, she only needs $300-400K to get the demo house going, and that's a loan with promises of interest and publicity for the funders. (Not that she'd turn her nose up at a grant if one were offered, but the finances work out even if it's a loan - though this would be on top of what she could get from banks.) If so, any chance you could share some of those leads? From etcs.ret at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 19:34:01 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <200407131800.i6DI0cW00577@tick.javien.com> References: <200407131800.i6DI0cW00577@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:00:38 -0600, in extropy-chat Digest, Vol 10, Issue 12, Amara asked: >Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the >Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? >(I think you know what I mean). Does Saturn have a satellite? Indeed, given the congruence of the antiterrorism pattern with the epidemiological toolkit - ritual delousing of travellers, quarantine for the suspected carriers, and the like - you can expect the Cabinet soon to meld the Departments of Homeland Security and of Health & Human Services. The resulting Department of Social Therapy would have as its customer service arm an augmented Bureau of Addictives, Terror, and Fatty Foods. Look for an announcement in late November '06, just in case the NY Senatorial race doesn't work right. stencil sends From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Jul 13 21:13:40 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Jim Lewis Update References: <1089741140.18708@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <024501c4691e$4b6852c0$55aa1218@Nano> Dear friends, as often as I can I will try to report to you Jim's experiences throughout his treatments. For those who don't know, Jim is the Foresight webmaster and on the board of Alcor, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma ( http://www.multiplemyeloma.org/ ) on May 7th. The treatment is chemo and then a stem cell transplant. Jim had the line put in his chest on July 1st. He recovered very well from the surgery. On July 8th Thursday, they began introducing the chemo into the line. A small bag of the drug is put inside of a square box that delivers the drug continuously and also has a read out on it, to monitor how much is being delivered and when it is close to empty. If something wasn't working right with the device it would activate a beeping noise. This box is put inside of a nylon pouch that has a belt he can wear around his waist. From this box is a thin tube that you can see the drug (it's red) coming into the line in his chest. He wears this box device for four days out of each month, for 3 to 4 months. The next morning on the ninth Friday, he had to begin the steroid pill, a drug that is part of this combination treatment. The steroid pill will be taken four days off and four days on continuously. On this day Jim said he felt jittery. We had been told that patients tend to feel amped up by this particular drug. On the 10th Saturday, Jim said he had trouble sleeping the night before due to the same jitters he felt earlier in the day. On the 11th Sunday, Jim had dominating stomach cramps, did not eat well and was very tired, spending a lot of time lying down in bed. Both he and I thought he felt hot, and I thought he looked flushed in the face, but his temperature was pretty much normal. On this night, Jim's attempt to sleep was agonizing. I usually go to bed a couple hours past Jim's bed times but right before I was ready to go to bed, he was in the living room pacing. He was getting up all night long in frustration. Yesterday, July 12 Monday, Jim decided to take the anti nausea pill that was prescribed. Up to this point he had taken the sample anti nausea pills instead. It seems this was a good decision since his cramping was not as bad. We went to Pac Med to have the line removed. Jim took his last steroid pill of the four day round and will start it again in another four days. Removing the line was quick. Jim's original doctor, Dr.Frank is moving to another facility and had told us that Dr. Chen would be Jims new doctor. We passed Dr. Chen's office in the hallway and introduced ourselves. I asked him about Jim's problem sleeping. He said that Jim should avoid taking naps through out the day, so that he is very tired when it is time to go to bed. Jim ate better this day, although he said the food didn't taste as good that it was sort of metallic. This was also a common reaction mentioned in our list of side effects. We really focused on Jim not taking a nap per Dr. Chen's suggestion. Jim spent a nice chunk of time at the computer! Last night Jim took longer than usual to go to sleep. But while I was in the living room, I heard snoring! Jim slept last night and this morning (July 13 Tuesday) said he woke up feeling rested. He said this rested sensation sort of wore off after he did a few of his daily routines. Since he felt the jitters previously I had suggested that he skip his coffee, so he might be missing his usual morning alertness partially due to the lack of caffeine he is used to. He took his first shower today, he didn't want to take one while the tubing was attached, not only because the attached box is cumbersome but to avoid any wetness and pulling on the tubes. They had told us that he needs to use baby shampoo with a soft cloth or brush. I'm not sure if this is to protect his hair or his scalp, since he is to avoid nicks (to avoid nicks he is also not to floss, or use a straight shaver). He needed a little nudging, "that won't help my dandruff" he says. His head could be snowing and it would be alright, as long as he is okay! He of course understood and used the shampoo. It's an adjustment to have to make so many changes in ones daily routine. He said he felt weak after the shower. We took the bandage off of his chest. He is now back in the office trying to figure out some of the insurance stuff. The Zometa infusion (which is to protect his bones which this disease targets) apparently is not covered by the insurance company and is rather large bill so we will need to pay it and then try to appeal it. There are office visit bills to be paid as well. So now we are up to this very moment in time. Thank you all for your support I will keep you informed. Warm Regards, Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 13 21:54:52 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:54:52 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Book Review: _Archaeological Anomalies, Small artifacts_ Message-ID: <40F45A2C.FDD5DE1B@mindspring.com> Source: Fortean Times 183, June 2004, p. 57 _Archaeological Anomalies, Small artifacts_, compiled by William Corliss The Sourcebook Project, 2003 (PO Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057, USA) Hb, 319pp, illus, refs, notes, 3 inds, $24.95, ISBN 0915554461 Challenging the mainstream Mayan nano-structured materials, iron pots in coal, domesticated giant sloths, baboons with carving knives... Corliss comes up with another of his incomparable compendia For more than 30 years, Bill Corliss has been publishing his incomparable compendia of anomalies covering subjects right across the scientific spectrum. Bob Rickard (who founded FT [Fortean Times] about the time Corliss started work) calls him a hero of forteana. This is the 21st volume in Corliss's monumental "Catalog of Anomalies", although he has published a grand total of 39 books under the aegis of the *Sourcebook Project*--and this represents only about half his database. Moreover, as he admits, "only a handful of English-language journals have received my serious attention", so the project could expand almost indefinitely. "And for every anomaly that can be explained away," he muses, "a trip to the library will quickly replace it with ten more from impeccable sources." Each anomaly is rated in terms of the quality of the evidence and the seriousness of the challenge posed to mainstream paradigms. Anomalies that score highly on both counts are very rare, but are the most significant since they have the potential to force paradigm shifts. Crucially, all the examined sources are listed, such lists forming a large proportion of each catalogue. This gives researchers a solid base for further investigation. For ease of reference, each volume has indexes of authors, sources, subjects, times and places--although since archeological phenomena are not of the "event" type, the last two types of index are not included in the book currently under review. This book covers high tech and geological artefacts as well as those made of bone, stone, metal, pottery, wood and cloth. Among much else, there are absorbing sections on exotic mummies, cannibal signatures, trepanning, dentistry, musical instruments, toys, human-like footprints in ancient rock, and ancient chemistry. It is a companion volume to two earlier tomes-- _Ancient Infrastructure: Remarkable Roads, Mines, Walls, Mounds, Stone Circles_ (1999); and _Ancient Structures: Remarkable Pyramids, Forts, Towers, Stone Chambers, Cities, Complexes_ (2001). Artefacts can be anomalous in many different ways--in age (such as the skillfully crafted bone harpoon from West Africa, dated to 80,000 years); location (e.g. purported Roman amphorae off the Brazilian coast); purpose (African stone crescents); size (microliths); scale (a vast stone workshop in Belize); composition (purported ancient Chinese buckle made of aluminium); affiliation (ancient pottery from Ecuador resembling Jomon pottery from Japan); association (giant sloth domestication suggested by bones in an Argentinian cave); sophistication (the Baghdad battery, no later than 3rd century AD); or curiosity value (large caches of stone discs). For anyone with even a slight interest in archaeology, this book is packed with fascinating finds, inviting speculation to go into overdrive; it's hard to resist recounting several of them at length; instead, I will mention just a couple that caught my attention. "Maya blue", pigment used by the Maya in murals and ceramics, is more brilliant than blue pigment from the indigo plant found elsewhere in the world, and maintains its vivid brilliance even after 15 centuries. Maya paint chemists managed to combine indigo molecules with needles of polygorskite clay to create a chemical cage-like structure that protected the enclosed indigo particles from fading. Then, by adding nano-particles of metal, they made the paint more brilliant. As the 1996 report in *Science* put it: "The combination of an intercalcated clay forming a super lattice and the metallic and oxide nanoparticles supported on an amorphous substrate makes the ancient Maya blue look like nano-structured materials." While working at an electrical plant in Thomas, Oklahoma, in 1912, FJ Kenwood broke a large chunk of coal with a sledgehammer. An iron pot fell from the centre, leaving an impression in the coal. This was witnessed by another employee. The coal was traced to Wilburton, Oklahoma, and was estimated to be 312 million years old. The pot was once in the private museum of R Nordling, but was lost after his death. Only a photograph remains. I have just one criticism of the *Sourcebook Project*: Bill Corliss has always published in the same typeface (American typewriter?). The catalogues would be more user-friendly if different faces and point sizes were used to signpost anomaly descriptions, verbatim quotations, assessments, bibliographies and indexes. Paul Sieveking Fortean Times Verdict The mother lode from a true hero of forteana -9- -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jul 13 22:42:00 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:42:00 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Jim Lewis Update In-Reply-To: <024501c4691e$4b6852c0$55aa1218@Nano> References: <1089741140.18708@whirlwind.he.net> <024501c4691e$4b6852c0$55aa1218@Nano> Message-ID: Gina, you and Jim will be in my thoughts. Best wishes for successsful treatment! Regards, MB On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Gina Miller wrote: > Dear friends, as often as I can I will try to report to you Jim's experiences throughout his treatments. For those who don't know, Jim is the Foresight webmaster and on the board of Alcor, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma ( http://www.multiplemyeloma.org/ ) on May 7th. The treatment is chemo and then a stem cell transplant. > From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 13 22:48:48 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: <20040713224848.88799.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I finally got a response from the CA officials on this issue, at least. Here's the meat of their reply: > Secretary of State Kevin Shelley has asked the > Elections Division to respond. > > We appreciate your bringing this issue forward. I.e., "No, we hadn't heard of this before. Thanks for the heads up. We'll investigate." From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Jul 14 01:04:29 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:04:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ References: <1089741140.18708@whirlwind.he.net><024501c4691e$4b6852c0$55aa1218@Nano> Message-ID: <03ae01c4693e$84751150$55aa1218@Nano> The Nanogirl News July 13, 2004 Charles Accused over Science Warnings. The Prince of Wales was accused today of raising unfounded scientific scares following his latest warnings about the new science of nanotechnology. Eminent fertility expert Lord Winston said it was "very unfortunate" that Charles had used a newspaper article yesterday to raise the spectre of a thalidomide-style disaster. Instead of fostering a mature debate on the pros and cons of the emerging technology, Charles is feeding a growing suspicion of science in society, said Lord Winston. (News.Scotsman 7/12/04) http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3191675 Also see the original Sunday article in the Independent: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=539977 Download the BBC news coverage video via RealPlayer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40369000/rm/_40369897_nano06_mcgourty_vi.ram No big bang but big nano bucks. After decades of hype and science fiction, nanotechnology is taking baby steps toward a trillion-dollar reality. From health care to aviation, it promises to reshape business and make a few pioneers very rich. But if you're afraid of Grey Goo or cyborgs invading your home, you might want to take a second look because, as the National Post's Joseph Brean reports in the first of a three-part series, the nanofuture is as uncertain as it ever was. (National Post 7/3/04) http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/artslife/reviewandbooks/story.html?id=1e61eb85-1443-40c8-99ba-c7aaf82586c8 Despite House's okay, little time left to pass nanotech bill this year. With little time left on the congressional legislative calendar, the prospects this year for new legislation recently introduced by Rep. Mike Honda, D-Calif., aimed at helping to bring nanotechnology advances to market appear dim. The bill (H.R. 4656) would create a public-private partnership aimed at investing in nanomanufacturing. The measure calls for the establishment of a new program, the Nanomanufacturing Investment Partnership, within the Department of Commerce that would provide direct investments, which must be matched by private sector partners, in "pre-commercial nanomanufacturing research and development projects." (SmallTimes 7/12/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8159 Metallic Contacts to the Nanoworld. Method fashions nanosized electrical leads on nanoscale semiconductors. Ever try connecting speakers to a stereo receiver using automobile jumper cables? Of course not. The mismatch in size makes the task clumsy. Yet researchers who study nanoscale electronics usually wire up the nanometer-sized circuit components-carbon nanotubes, for example-using electrical contacts that are enormous compared with the nanotubes. They accept the size disparity because no one has developed a viable way to avoid it. Until now, that is. (Chemical & Engineering News 7/5/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/8227/8227notw1.html Nanotechnology-based applications are accelerating the development of nanomedicine. With the potential for targeted therapy, and therefore reduced side effects, nanomedicine holds the promise of significantly improving quality of life parameters. At the same time, the adoption of nanotechnology-based applications by large therapeutic and diagnostic companies is accelerating the development of nanomedicine. The prospect of site-specific therapeutic action and by extension of fewer side effects means that nanomedical applications have an enhanced risk-benefit analysis ratio. This is motivating their growing popularity as a therapeutic option. (News Medical.Net 7/5/04) http://www.news-medical.net/?id=3067 Are nanotech fabrics any good? Imagine you're balancing a cup of coffee and heading back to your workstation and the inevitable happens -- the coffee spills. There are huge, blotchy coffee stains across your workwear. How can you turn up like this for that important mid-afternoon client meeting? If you're wearing stain-resistant clothing, you may not be badly off. The chances of your favourite white shirt sporting an ugly, dull brown stain post-wash are minimized if you are wearing shirts made of fabric that is treated with nanotechnology. The menswear market today is flooded with shirts and trousers that are wrinkle free, stain resistant and have cooling properties. All of these essentially use what is called nanotechnology. (Rediff.com 7/3/04) http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2004/jul/03perfin.htm Tuning the Nanoworld. New Methods for Constructing Nanostructures and Calculating Their Electronic States. Scientists at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory have found new ways of combining quantum dots and segmented nanorods into multiply branching forms and have applied new ways to calculate the electronic properties of these nanostructures, whose dimensions are measured in billionths of a meter. (Berkeley Lab 7/7/04) http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-tuning-the-nanoworld.html NSF grant funds molecular photosensor. Florida Tech researchers have earned a $100,000 National Science Foundation grant for a nanotechnology project, to develop a molecular photosensor. The photosensor will be based on compounds, such as Vitamin A, found in mammalian retinae. Dr. Joel Olson and Dr. Nasri Nesnas, assistant professors of chemistry, earned the grant to develop the technology, which can be useful in the fabrication of miniscule cameras--the size of a grain of sand--requiring very little power. (EurekAlert 7/9/04) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-07/fiot-ngf070904.php Light on a Chip. An ultrafine nanometre 'drill' could be used to make some of the tiniest lenses imaginable and may also allow scientists to harness light for use in optical computers of the future, thanks to research published today. Scientists from the UK and Spain describe in this week's Science Express (8 July) how artificial materials with tiny grooves and holes drilled into their surfaces could channel and focus light beams on a chip. (Imperial College London 7/8/04) http://www.ic.ac.uk/p5394.htm Patent for Coated Single Walled Carbon Nanotubes and Ropes Awarded to Carbon Nanotechnologies. Carbon Nanotechnologies, Inc (CNI) announced today the allowance of another U.S. Patent, this one for coated single-wall carbon nanotubes and ropes of single-wall carbon nanotubes. The technology gives CNI a patent on a composition that is single-wall carbon nanotubes with a nanometer-scale coating of another material that can include polymers and metals. This technology is part of the intellectual property developed by Nobel-Prize winning scientist Dr. Richard Smalley and licensed exclusively to CNI by Rice University in 2001. (PhysOrg 7/13/04) http://www.physorg.com/news371.html >From Small Things, Big Things Will Come. For Germany's Degussa, Nanotronics center is new way to turn nanotech research into products. Next April, Degussa will inaugurate its new Nanotronics science-to-business center in Marl, Germany. That's a short 10 months after the company's executives and representatives of local and state governments and the academic community laid the center's foundation stone in a gala ceremony at the end of June. Over the next five years, Degussa will invest some $60 million in the center,...(C&E 7/12/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/nanofocus/ Nanoparticles stiff from constant strain. Take something no wider than a human hair and shrink it a thousand fold to a few nanometers across, and its electronic and other properties change radically. But whether the crystal structure of these nanoparticles remains basically the same is a matter scientists continue to debate. Now, a new report by scientists at the University of California, Berkeley, and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) shows that's far from the case. Zinc sulfide nanoparticles a mere 10 atoms across have a disordered crystal structure that puts them under constant strain, increasing the stiffness of the particles and probably affecting other properties, such as strength and elasticity, according to the team's report. (UCBerkeley 7/6/04) http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/07/06_strain.shtml High-Yield Path to Dendrimers. A copper(I)-catalyzed fusion reaction of azides and alkynes to form 1,2,3-triazoles has been applied to dendrimer synthesis for the first time and has been found to give dendrimer yields higher than those achieved with any other reactions. Dendrimers are large, globular molecules comprising several branches--or dendrons--emanating from a central core. A range of functional groups can be put on dendrimer surfaces to endow them with specific chemical and physical properties. (C&E 7/12/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/8228/8228notw1.html The Innovation Specialists. Thought the tech revolution came to an end when the dotcom bubble burst? Think again. From nanotech (in your washing machine!) to stem-cell research to Internet businesses, innovations are coming fast and furious. Meet 10 leaders who are helping to shape the future of communications, entertainment, medicine - and Laundromats. (Time 7/11/04) http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901040719-662741,00.html Building a better car - one atom at a time. Tiny assembly lines cut costs, boost safety. Researchers are finding ways to make vehicles safer, lighter, more powerful - and ultimately less expensive - by building materials one atom at a time... Factories will run more efficiently with the help of microscopic assembly machines. Injuries caused by accidents will be reduced. And eventually the price of your dream car might finally be a little closer to your budget. General Motors Corp. is already using nanocomposites to build lighter but stronger running boards for several van models, as well as cargo beds for the Hummer H2 and exterior panels for the Chevrolet Malibu sedan. (Enquirer Cincinnati 7/11/04) http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/11/biz_nanocars11.html Wall Street falls for nanotech. The chief executive of Nano-Tex LLC warned about the mounting hype around his company and other nanotechnology startups at a recent investor conference. But the first question from the audience showed how his message had been digested. "When is your IPO?" Nanotechnology, or science at the atomic level, has become the latest fad on Wall Street as the stock market shakes off its dot-com funk. Bankers and venture capitalists are pushing for initial public offerings of nanotech startups. Everyone, from day traders to fund managers, seems eager to get in early on what they hope will be the next big thing. (Globandmail 7/13/04) http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040713.gtnano0713/BNStory/Technology/ Trade Group Calls for More Nano. Despite the best efforts of the Bush administration, the U.S. semiconductor industry will still need a $1.5 billion shot in the arm to succeed in nanotechnology. The Semiconductor Industry Association (SIA) today called for the creation of a Nanoelectronics Research Institute (NRI) to direct and coordinate a massive research effort and assure continued U.S. leadership. "The price for not starting now on a massive, coordinated research and development effort in nanoelectronics could be nothing less than a loss in just two decades of U.S. economic and defense leadership," said John E. Kelly, III, senior vice president and group executive of the IBM Technology Group, in a statement. (Earthweb 6/10/04) http://news.earthweb.com/ent-news/article.php/3366581 (Interview) Tim Harper on NanoWater. Questions by Rocky Rawstern, Editor Nanotechnology Now. Please talk about NanoWater, the reasons behind it, and the goals and timeframe. Why water, as opposed to food or shelter, or other basic needs? NanoWater is a very simple idea that grew out of a meeting with Former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres at the World NanoEconomic Congress in Washington DC last year. He made the only speech I have ever seen that got a standing ovation at a nanotech conference, with the simple message that perhaps technology could do something positive. We followed this up with a visit to Israel just before Christmas last year to understand at first-hand the problems facing countries with scarce water resources. (nanotechnow 7/12/04) http://nanotech-now.com/Tim-Harper-NanoWater-July04.htm Laser Tweezer Traps Nanotubes. Researchers from Arryx, Inc. and New York University have demonstrated that it is possible to trap and move carbon nanotubes with optical tweezers. This is tricky because nanotubes' diameters are orders of magnitude smaller than the wavelength of light used to move them. The researchers used a wavelength of light that was strongly absorbed by the carbon nanotubes. By strongly focusing the light, the researchers were able to trap the nanotubes. (MIT Technology Review 7/13/04) http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/rnb_071304.asp Is Small Different? Not Necessarily Say Georgia Tech Researchers. Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology and NASA suggest that materials on the nanoscale may sometimes be subject to the same physical rules as their macro-world counterparts. The findings provide an exception to the conventional scientific notion that objects small enough to be measured in nanometers (one-billionth of a meter) behave according to different rules than larger objects. A team led by Lawrence Bottomley in Georgia Tech's School of Chemistry and Biochemistry and Jonathon Colton in the School of Mechanical Engineering found that the mechanical response of a multi-walled carbon nanospring was remarkably similar to the rules that govern the mechanical properties of springs on the macro scale. The results are published in the American Chemical Society journal Nano Letters, Volume 4, Number 6. (Ascribe 7/12/04) http://www.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/spew4th.pl?ascribeid=20040712.091847&time=09%2028%20PDT&year=2004&public=1 (2pages) The Methuselah Report. Living to be 120 might be attainable, but is it desirable? "I believe extraordinary longevity is absolutely inevitable," says Donald Louria, a professor at the New Jersey Medical School. "It's not a matter of if we'll have extraordinary longevity, but when." -Genetics and nanorobots discussed- (AARP July/August04) http://www.aarp.org/bulletin/yourhealth/Articles/a2004-07-07-methuselah.html Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 14 02:21:59 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:21:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> > >Kerry is an empty suit who spends most of his time fighting his own >doppelganger. He is an absolutely lousy candidate and won't attract >votes from much more than the party-bots. If that's the best they can >come up with, the Democratic Party is dead and doesn't even know it yet. > Doubtful he'll make things better even under the most optimistic >circumstances. > >There really isn't much to vote for in this election. > > >j. andrew rogers > > Nonsense. I personally despise Kerry but I hate George W. a million times more. I will vote for Kerry though I am anything but a "party-bot" for the democrats. Of course if the elections are "postponed" it's a moot point. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jul 14 03:19:49 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:19:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2004, at 7:21 PM, Gregory Propf wrote: >> There really isn't much to vote for in this election. >> > Nonsense. I personally despise Kerry but I hate George W. a million > times more. I'm still missing the part where you assert there is something to vote for. Take a breather and get some perspective; there is no good reason to invest emotion in this. Breathless pronouncements that the end of the world is nigh if $CANDIDATE gets elected happen every election cycle. It won't happen this time after the election either. I don't stand to benefit in any significant sense no matter who is elected, nor do most other people whether they realize it or not. It is strange how everyone will tell you that both candidates suck ass and then invest so much in which candidate gets elected. The Presidential election process does not constitute a useful choice any more than selecting the method of your murder is a useful choice. Every four years the powers that be throw up two largely indistinguishable choices for the masses to pick from, neither of which is particularly good. The masses are easily manipulated into making an emotional investment in someone they don't even like, much to the benefit of the entrenched power structures. And you are dancing to their tune. Of course, we can partially blame the fools that voted for all those Constitutional amendments in 1913 for that. A bad year for the Republic. j. andrew rogers From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 14 03:54:31 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:54:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040714035431.GQ1141@leitl.org> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 10:21:59PM -0400, Gregory Propf wrote: > Nonsense. I personally despise Kerry but I hate George W. a million > times more. I will vote for Kerry though I am anything but a > "party-bot" for the democrats. Of course if the elections are > "postponed" it's a moot point. Write to your representative that this election to not use any electronic voting machines. You don't have to postpone if you can rig. Also, I suggest requesting UN vote observers. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 14 04:14:56 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:14:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040714041455.GS1141@leitl.org> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 08:19:49PM -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > I'm still missing the part where you assert there is something to vote > for. May I suggest my candidate? http://www.cthulhu.org/ Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil? > Take a breather and get some perspective; there is no good reason to > invest emotion in this. Breathless pronouncements that the end of the > world is nigh if $CANDIDATE gets elected happen every election cycle. > It won't happen this time after the election either. I don't stand to > benefit in any significant sense no matter who is elected, nor do most > other people whether they realize it or not. I disagree. Shrub is definitely a greater evil. > It is strange how everyone will tell you that both candidates suck ass > and then invest so much in which candidate gets elected. The Of course they both suck ass. But Bush swallows. > Presidential election process does not constitute a useful choice any > more than selecting the method of your murder is a useful choice. > Every four years the powers that be throw up two largely > indistinguishable choices for the masses to pick from, neither of which > is particularly good. The masses are easily manipulated into making an > emotional investment in someone they don't even like, much to the > benefit of the entrenched power structures. And you are dancing to > their tune. What is the alternative? Not to vote? Blow up federal buildings and send anthrax in the mail? Found the transhumanist party? > Of course, we can partially blame the fools that voted for all those > Constitutional amendments in 1913 for that. A bad year for the > Republic. I think it is time for some damage containment and control. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 04:18:57 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:18:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040714035431.GQ1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <008701c46959$af165a20$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Eugen Leitl ... > Write to your representative that this election to not use > any electronic voting machines. You don't have to postpone if you can rig. > > Also, I suggest requesting UN vote observers. An interesting question is which direction would a really major terrorist attack push the US election? Any speculations? Either way, the election this year is full of paradox. One might speculate that some of the terrorists would want to help reelect Bush, for they know he will fight, and they desperately want to fight. The U.S. joining the actual battle makes it easier for them to recruit. Also Bush dethroned Saddam, who they hate. Another interesting question is how European elections will be swayed by the terrorist attacks that will likely precede the next several elections there. My speculation: a major 9-11-ish attack would help elect Bush, for the USian proletariat doesn't know if the other guy will fight. I seriously doubt the US will do like unto Spain and elect the other guy if there is an attack in the days preceding the election. That would be too much like being held hostage. Altho I see little difference between the two major candidates, it is so sad to think the election could be decided by terrorists. spike From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jul 14 04:57:06 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:57:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040714041455.GS1141@leitl.org> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <40F498C7.5050208@cfl.rr.com> <20040714041455.GS1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <40EB6995-D552-11D8-A0E0-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Jul 13, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > May I suggest my candidate? http://www.cthulhu.org/ > > Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil? My candidate too. I'm hoping that we'll get enough votes to get matching Federal funds. Actually, that does bring up a weird question. What would happen if a fictional entity got enough votes to qualify for "major party" status? Hmm.... > I disagree. Shrub is definitely a greater evil. Its arguable. To put it another way, would we be better off with a Kerry and a Republican Congress or Bush and a Democrat Congress? The outcome is virtually identical. But since a Republican Congress is all but a sure thing, that changes the calculus a bit. But it also indicates that Bush will likely win (ignoring the more complex demographic details of why this is). If the Democrats choke in this election, and there are better than even odds that they will, they are politically finished as anything resembling their current form. The Republicans have managed to dodge all the political third-rails that would erode the support of their base. The real problem with the Democrats is that they are now not much more than the Baby Boomer party, which automatically marginalizes them (and for good reason). The Republicans are currently controlled by a Christian Right faction, a minority faction within that party. GenX, which is becoming one of the most important voting factions, is a generation without a party to call home. The next big political shift will be when GenX starts taking control of the political structure independent of current ones, possibly built in the carcass of the current Democrats. Every reasonable analysis seems to indicate that we won't get a real political shift until 2010-2012, and then it will be toward a much more libertarian political perspective. Until then, not much you can do about it. > What is the alternative? Not to vote? Blow up federal buildings and > send > anthrax in the mail? Found the transhumanist party? Neither being a cog in the current system nor attacking the existing power structure directly is a constructive action. The power structures are largely immune to conventional attack, at least on any relatively short-term basis. Well-conceived clever and subtle approaches, on the other hand can gain some traction, though it still takes years. > I think it is time for some damage containment and control. Wishful thinking. The problem is that Kerry is just a different type of damage. Things will shift, but it isn't going to happen overnight, and probably not in this election. Policy doesn't move that fast. By my best estimates, and the estimates of a number of others, we won't have real meaningful change until the current power structure made up of Boomer clowns in both parties goes into decline. j. andrew rogers From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 14 05:48:42 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <20040714041455.GS1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040714054842.85631.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > Found the transhumanist party? Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major political party? (At least, one of the two major parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs were not that different from ExI's official philosophy.) The rest of this post applies primarily to the U.S.A., although one can see minor edits to apply it to, say, the E.U. I wonder whether it would be worthwhile for there to be a major Transhumanist party, and as part of that consideration, what would need to be done to create one? By "major" I mean fully the equivalent of the Democrats or the Republicans as they are today, not widely ignored like the Libertarians and Greens are. No offense to members of those parties, BTW, but they are, and there are reasons for that. (For those who would place the blame on the American voters: that doesn't solve anything. It is those voters, as they are, who will put a politician in power or not - so those who seek power must work with them, flaws and all. And yes, sufficient voter sentiment will overcome any and all gaming of the system, as has happened many times before. Even if you believe the worst about them, Diebold's executives are pansies compared to certain operatives in the past.) One aspect that would need to be addressed is fleshing out the application of transhumanist philosophy to non-central themes. For instance, where do we stand on farm subsidies? Mining rights (in the very near future, well before molecular nanotechnology can change things)? How would we best spin our advocation of personal enhancement's effect on sports, and the logical promotion of dual leagues - today's league for the unenhanced with all the same regulation, and another where technological innovation (largely fuelled by money, granted, but not entirely) reigns supreme over natural muscle even on the platform of the human body? What about security - we wouldn't allow it to override personal liberty, true, but how would we promote actual security? Or how about trade (which can tie in to security: make the leaders know much of their nations' strength depends on trade with us, and watch them crack down on threats to us - for all that France dislikes us right now, few of its leaders would even dream of doing us great harm, even covertly)? Immigration (say, do we have any clever solutions for dealing with the mass of people who see opportunity here that they do not at home, yet for one reason or another do not go through official channels*)? What about religion and morality (like it or not, there are a lot of voters who call themselves Christian, so an outright assault on the entire Christian faith - as opposed to, say, pointing out why certain interpretations of Jesus's words, like the ban on stem cells, actually go against His wishes - would be counterproductive)? * An idea on immigration: what if, instead of quotas, we made it so all who reach our borders can be granted citizenship if they otherwise pass the usual criteria (pass the basic civics tests, swear allegiance to the U.S., not be a wanted criminal here or at home unless applying for amnesty, and so forth)? Coming here and refusing (or excessively failing) to meet the other criteria (save for not being a criminal, which gets dealt with in the usual way) would be punishable by registration (fingerprinting, photo ID, and possibly DNA sampling) and deportation on the first offense, although cases of ignorance (likely the majority of cases: some laborer hears America is the land of gold and either does not consider or, given experiences at home, actively disbelieves that it might be better to do so legally) would be educated about what legal immigration actually entails and given a chance to comply. Repeat offenses would get jail time or maybe, if potentially a threat to national security (these are foreigners breaching our laws on our soil, after all), death. Geh. From all the parentheticals, you can tell how complex this thought is. And that's only scratching the surface - and doesn't even get into the practicalities of organizing a support base, getting on the ballot (or getting transhumanist candidates seriously capable of defeating Dem & Rep candidates through already-on-the-ballot third parties**), or considering if it's worth it? ** Logical extension: use the Dems or Reps themselves? Probably not worth it: the parties tend to say, "thou SHALT vote our way regardless of your personal feelings or we sack and replace you", far more often than seems a good price to pay. From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 06:08:02 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:08:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] physics finder In-Reply-To: <20040713140252.16035.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009801c46968$ebee8850$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Hey cool, check this: http://physicsfinder.org/ From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 07:04:01 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:04:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <948b11e04071400046a044072@mail.gmail.com> Kerry seems to be bound to continue and even escalate the war in Iraq. He has also made some statements about his belief that the US should exercise considerable control in Latin and South America. He has talked about putting more Homeland Security forces to work. So yeah, I think much of it will unfortunately continue similar to today. - samantha On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:29 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > Since I am still hoping to vote in the US elections from here, I have > a political question for you US citizens, who have more information > regarding Kerry. Does Kerry's policies look like he will continue the > Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'? (I think you know > what I mean). > > Amara > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 07:18:49 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:18:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> References: <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> Message-ID: <948b11e040714001862cad178@mail.gmail.com> I don't see why we our society needs to answer this hypothetical situation before the fact. Before the fact planning how to shutdown the election and for how many reasons makes people pretty darn nervous. If something that extreme happens we will have to deal with it vis a vis the election when it happens. Too much planning in terms of extremely horrendous but very small possibilities results in paranoia and temptation to invoke emergency powers all ready to go. I certainly don't trust an incumbent to decide whether to hold the election that could remove him. On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:44:03 -0400, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > Recall my third reaction: what should we do if someone nukes Washington > on election day? As horrible as it sounds, our society really does need > to answer this question. > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 07:34:25 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:34:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <001901c4689b$c2234f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <948b11e04071400346dc5feee@mail.gmail.com> A Transparent Society is easy to miss in such a way that either the government and/or other powers have unequal surveillance over the people or universal surveillance proves ineffective in challenging existing power distributions. I would suspect the latter to be the case as I suspect that effective controlling power is a cumulative function on degree of existing power plus information. So given equal information the party with the most existing power still remains in control. In any case, given effective full surveillance of the controlled party and the desire by the controlling party to limit/restrict disruptive technology, an equilibrium (stasis) could conceivably be reached. - s From scerir at libero.it Wed Jul 14 08:04:42 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:04:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] physics finder References: <009801c46968$ebee8850$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <000801c46979$38fadb20$c1c51b97@administxl09yj> From: "Spike" > Hey cool, check this: > http://physicsfinder.org/ ... and this http://fangio.magnet.fsu.edu/~vlad/pr100/ 100 Years of the Physical Review (Interesting, old, original papers published by the PR, in pdf. Like, i.e., the original derivation of uncertainty relations by Robertson, in the QM section). s. From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:21:50 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:21:50 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath Message-ID: Just came across this article about nanometer thick waterproofing: http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3198690 Could be that our bathable laptops and pdas are closer than we thought. BAL From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jul 14 13:17:56 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:17:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immortality Device Message-ID: <003101c469a4$fa425260$6600a8c0@brainiac> a/k/a "Eternal Life Device": http://www.geocities.com/health_index/chiu_immortality.html Sigh, Olga From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 13:28:01 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:28:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: I remember this argument from 1996 where some people hated Clinton with a passion but didn't care much for Dole. The problem is that hate is not a motivator to go out and vote. I wish there were candidates that I could vote for because I believed in their platform. BAL >From: Gregory Propf >To: andrew at ceruleansystems.com, ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:21:59 -0400 > >> >>Kerry is an empty suit who spends most of his time fighting his own >>doppelganger. He is an absolutely lousy candidate and won't attract >>votes from much more than the party-bots. If that's the best they can >>come up with, the Democratic Party is dead and doesn't even know it yet. >>Doubtful he'll make things better even under the most optimistic >>circumstances. >> >>There really isn't much to vote for in this election. >> >> >>j. andrew rogers >> >> >Nonsense. I personally despise Kerry but I hate George W. a million times >more. I will vote for Kerry though I am anything but a "party-bot" for the >democrats. Of course if the elections are "postponed" it's a moot point. > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 14:33:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040714041455.GS1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040714143351.71238.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 08:19:49PM -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > > I'm still missing the part where you assert there is something to > vote > > for. > > May I suggest my candidate? http://www.cthulhu.org/ > > Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil? > > > Take a breather and get some perspective; there is no good reason > to > > invest emotion in this. Breathless pronouncements that the end of > the > > world is nigh if $CANDIDATE gets elected happen every election > cycle. > > It won't happen this time after the election either. I don't stand > to > > benefit in any significant sense no matter who is elected, nor do > most > > other people whether they realize it or not. > > I disagree. Shrub is definitely a greater evil. Youre only saying that because Kerry has never been president before, so you really have no idea what he's going to do. It is axiomatic that whoever has been president is more evil because they've worn the ring of power already... doesn't mean that Kerry won't succumb quicker or more excessively. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Wed Jul 14 14:44:29 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:44:29 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <20040714054842.85631.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040714054842.85631.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04Jul14.104431-0400_edt.313741-2907+166139@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Adrian Tymes writes: > Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one > widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major > political party? (At least, one of the two major > parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs > were not that different from ExI's official > philosophy.) Ha. How quickly they forget. The Extropians List used to be full of "extropians" sightings in science fiction and literature. Searching Amazon for the word extropian finds over a dozen books referencing "extropians". Many are science fiction and many are science fact. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Wed Jul 14 14:44:14 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:44:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: physics finder In-Reply-To: <009801c46968$ebee8850$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <009801c46968$ebee8850$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <04Jul14.104414-0400_edt.318288-24019+1405@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Spike writes: > Hey cool, check this: > > http://physicsfinder.org/ Coolness confirmed. Spike is cool 'cause he sends us cool stuff! -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Wed Jul 14 14:47:09 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:47:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04Jul14.104709-0400_edt.316780-15911+4368@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Brian Lee writes: > The problem is that hate is not a motivator to go out and vote. I thought that hate was the best motivator for voting, and that was why politicians prefer attack ads to issue ads. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 14:47:15 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:47:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party Message-ID: <144460-220047314144715825@M2W053.mail2web.com> From: Adrian Tymes --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> Found the transhumanist party? >Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one >widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major >political party? (At least, one of the two major >parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs >were not that different from ExI's official > Message-ID: <20040714145018.20807.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > An advantage of that idea is it _could_ give you out-gassing jets to > move them out of orbit, without tides or "Lorenz resonances" (below). A disadvantage of the idea is that comets have never been observed in Saturn orbit, by Voyager1 ,2 , Hubble, or Cassini. Sounds more like some nutter trying to 'prove' that Velikovsky wasn't just a deranged ranter. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 14:54:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <04Jul14.104709-0400_edt.316780-15911+4368@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <20040714145435.36330.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Brian Lee writes: > > > The problem is that hate is not a motivator to go out and vote. > > I thought that hate was the best motivator for voting, and that was > why politicians prefer attack ads to issue ads. Attack ads don't stew hate, they stew doubt. While lots of repubs hated Clinton with a passion, Clinton's campaign portrayed Dole to independents as a mean and bitter man. Attack ads don't play to party extremes, they play to the undecided independents, building doubts about the candidate they are attacking. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Thu Jul 15 00:01:52 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:01:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <04Jul14.104709-0400_edt.316780-15911+4368@ams.ftl.affinity.com> References: <04Jul14.104709-0400_edt.316780-15911+4368@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <40F5C970.80101@optusnet.com.au> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Brian Lee writes: > >> The problem is that hate is not a motivator to go out and vote. > > > I thought that hate was the best motivator for voting, and that was why > politicians prefer attack ads to issue ads. > -- > Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > I think that the major reason politicians avoid issues is because issues by definition have people for and against. By taking a stand, on either side, you are going to annoy the people on the other side. Attack ads don't really tick off any large group of voters because they don't directly affect anyone. They work because people don't pay to much attention to them. They just contribute to the background noise and tend to sway people by unconscious persuasion, rather than rational evaluation. -david From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 15:10:28 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:10:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections Message-ID: Actually, negative adds make people not vote. So Kerry plays anti-Bush ads and fewer Bush supporters vote. Bush plays anti-Kerry ads and fewer Kerry supporters vote. I found this link through google: http://pcl.stanford.edu/common/docs/research/iyengar/1996/goingneg.html but I also found some contrary papers so I could be wrong. My thinking is that negative ads and hatred don't motivate people to vote and/or to change their situation. Positivity and hope for improvement motivate people to vote. BAL >From: Harvey Newstrom >To: ExI chat list >Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending elections >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:47:09 -0400 > >Brian Lee writes: > >>The problem is that hate is not a motivator to go out and vote. > >I thought that hate was the best motivator for voting, and that was why >politicians prefer attack ads to issue ads. > >-- >Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 16:19:17 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: Extropian party Message-ID: <46380-220047314161917174@M2W090.mail2web.com> From: Harvey Newstrom Adrian Tymes writes: > Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one > widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major > political party? (At least, one of the two major > parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs > were not that different from ExI's official > philosophy.) >Ha. How quickly they forget. The Extropians List used to be full of >"extropians" sightings in science fiction and literature. Searching >Amazon >for the word extropian finds over a dozen books referencing "extropians". >Many are science fiction and many are science fact. Also, there are a few fictional characters based on "extropians." N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Jul 14 16:34:45 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:34:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <948b11e040714001862cad178@mail.gmail.com> References: <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> <20040712192924.29288.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <40F2EA03.9060504@cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040714111013.040d9e98@unreasonable.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >I don't see why we our society needs to answer this hypothetical >situation before the fact. Before the fact planning how to shutdown >the election and for how many reasons makes people pretty darn >nervous. If something that extreme happens we will have to deal with >it vis a vis the election when it happens. Too much planning in >terms of extremely horrendous but very small possibilities results in >paranoia and temptation to invoke emergency powers all ready to go. > >I certainly don't trust an incumbent to decide whether to hold the >election that could remove him. It's pretty clear that classified emergency powers have been in place for decades. Certainly since the advent of NORAD. I'm sure some date back to the flu pandemics or the Civil War. What we know of them seems scary and unconstitutional. And yet -- looking at this country's history, the greatest threats to liberty have come from the slow, inexorable incursions, not from abrupt acts like the Japanese internment or gas rationing. The slow has grown roots through decades of add-on regulation and court interpretation; emergency measures (usually) abated when the excuse passed. There are a lot of details to get right in the face or wake of a virulent outbreak, governmental decapitation, or continental EMP. Mistakes in response can be worse than an initial problem, e.g., paralyzing an accident victim with a neck injury by moving her without cervical support. Since this is fairly obvious, the planning and authorization of requisite powers *will* be done. The question is whether it happens in the light of day, subject to public scrutiny. By jumping on anyone who proposes something you find offensive or dangerous, e.g., Patriot II or Eliezer's SIAI project, you may not stop or alter it. You may simply cause it to move to black. Moreover, it sends a signal that, next time, no one should be told about it. -- David Lubkin. From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 14 17:10:48 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:10:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <20040714143351.71238.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040714143351.71238.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F56918.9090602@cfl.rr.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Youre only saying that because Kerry has never been president before, >so you really have no idea what he's going to do. It is axiomatic that >whoever has been president is more evil because they've worn the ring >of power already... doesn't mean that Kerry won't succumb quicker or >more excessively. > >===== > Well, you've got a point but here's the way I look at it. Say you run a business and you've got this assistant. Let's say that there's a "dipshit scale" that runs from 1-5 with the median at 3. You've worked with this guy long enough to know he's got to be a 4.5, maybe a 4.9. You put out the call for a new assistant and the best candidate who turns up sounds like he's probably a 4, but you don't know for sure because he's untested. Basically, this is my POV vis. a vis. Bush. It would damned hard just picking random people off the street to do worse. I'm going to gamble that Kerry *isn't worse*. I think that's a *very* good bet. From dwish at indco.net Wed Jul 14 17:12:48 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:12:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It In-Reply-To: <04Jul13.112853-0400_edt.310933-28853+4524@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <200407141614.i6EGE6Jc028302@br549.indconet.com> Harvey, I am curious if you maybe interested with your background in voice. I am President of a group called OSSRI (Open Source Speech Recognition Initiative) which focuses on an Open Platform for speech and speech development, mainly Linux. We have members from CMU, the OpenOffice.org project, and NASA as members of the group. We work to promote speech related technologies mostly for those with disabilities. We also promote speech enabled solutions to make the human experience better. It is free to join and we don't charge dues. I would be pleased if you take me up on the offer as it is always great to have great minds involved. The link is: www.ossri.org Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:29 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It Amara Graps writes: > I would say that voice training is almost necessary for those people > using mostly voice input devices. Yes. When I worked at IBM, the people developing and testing the voice input systems couldn't work on them regularly. They became hoarse after a full day of constant talking, and had to recover with a couple of days not talking. They avoided using the system unless they had to use it for testing. They preferred to work without the voice input. Although it sounds cools in a science-fictiony way, voice interface is not very usable. It would be good for public kiosks and small transactions, but not for working all day. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 14 17:22:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <144460-220047314144715825@M2W053.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040714172239.24567.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > It is apparent to me that political parties, as we > know them, are > constructed with a psychology of one against the > other, which is in > conflict with developing a positive and rational > viewpoint in working > through problems and developing arguable, sensible > ways to deal with > issues. We even see this within transhumanism. The > current muff or riff > between the Social Democrats/Marxists/Socialists and > Libertarian is an > example. Rather than being at each other?s throats, > they should be working > together to outline, map or graph, where they agree, > where the disagree, > and what they can do together or join forces in some > way to step in the > direction of progress and work within their partisan > approaches to realize > certain specific transhumanist goals. Which is why I suggested this new party possibly also try to get its candidates approved by allied parties. (Can anyone imagine, by analogue, what would happen if somehow the same person wound up with both the Democratic and Republican presidential nominations? True, it'd be nearly impossible just to run for both of them...then again, if someone did clear the paperwork hurdles, that alone would give major weight to any claims of being a uniter instead of a partisan divider, and thus attract votes from the moderates. Possibly even moreso after the radicals of both parties hit the roof over someone even trying this.) This may involve not being a political party per se (and thus automatically be seen as competition), but rather an organization to lobby and work the existing political parties. (For instance, making absolutely certain the allied parties don't keep trying tactics which only hurt themselves. See, for instance, the current Libertarian presidential candidate's claim that there was no Constitutional basis for the war in Iraq. IMO, he is 100% correct and justified, but attacking Bush and Kerry on that still costs him votes. Getting emotional over principles prior to the election does not work, as unfortunately demonstrated by Dean. This organization would have to make sure its candidates do not repeat that type of mistake, while still keeping their principles together so they can act on them if and when they are elected.) > Rather than a new Republican, New Democrat, New > Libertarian, New Green, New > ...EU ..., I'd rather see a futuristic party that > had a smart set of > strategists who could design a rational architecture > that has a broad > understanding of society, the future, science, > technology, and economics. And, again, how to sell the voters on it. Can't overlook that part if one wants any decent chance of success. In fact, it'll probably be even more important than the architecture itself. > I?d like to see this party have representatives from > all existing parties > around the word. I suppose it would be a World > Citizen?s or Citizen?s of > the World political party. Hmm. World Citizens does have a bit of a ring to it. So long as it clarified it intended to ensure our security and strength by maintaining our place in the world, so that even those who argue that politicians should serve none but those within their own countries might agree with this party. Each country's WC party might limit its official/main membership to citizens of that country (considering the EU as a whole to be one country for this purpose, much as the USA is one), but of course guests from other countries would be welcome to share advice or concerns. Some would even accuse it of trying to establish American (or EU) imperialism...and some might actively back it for the same perception. > A dream I have had for many years is to have a > symposium in Telluride of > some of the most apt thinkers to design this. In > fact this has been going > on for about 30 years in Telluride, but never gets > to a next step. Which is why I phrased the question towards finding out what that next step would be. Debate and discussion is great and necessary, but useless if it never produces action to implement the resulting desired changes. As was pointed out, in the USA, Gen X has no political voice at this time. It is predicted to revolt and gain one, with a more libertarian flavor, a bit under a decade from now. So why not, as they say, shape the discussion? Rather than pure Libertarian - good, but not necessarily any emphasis on tech - or Green or some other party (even the extremely defocussed Democrats, who might by then only remember that they're pro-labor - and thus anti-mechanization and possibly anti-AI), why not provide a voice for those who have grown up with technology and see nothing inherently scary about what their elders preach are today's worst evils? In short...I wonder if it would be most useful towards this end to gather a list of what works and what doesn't, as far as getting elected goes, flavor it towards Extropian issues and ideals (like, how does one speak of life extension in ways that attact votes, and what kinds of L.E. sells have actually turned people away and thus should be avoided), and post it on the ExI site? (Meta-politics, if you will. Probably not suitable for discussion on any politics-specific list, since it'd quickly be drowned by discussion of politics itself.) From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Wed Jul 14 18:28:37 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:28:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It In-Reply-To: <200407141614.i6EGE6Jc028302@br549.indconet.com> References: <200407141614.i6EGE6Jc028302@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <04Jul14.142838-0400_edt.316749-2907+168094@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks writes: > > Harvey, > > I am curious if you maybe interested with your background in voice. I am > President of a group called OSSRI (Open Source Speech Recognition > Initiative) which focuses on an Open Platform for speech and speech > development, mainly Linux. This looks very interesting. However, I don't really have much skill in the speech area itself. I worked with the speech group I mentioned doing network security to protect their research from industrial espionage. I didn't help develop the speech product itself. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Jul 14 19:56:54 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:56:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> I have had a few thoughts on extropianism as a political movement. Firstly I will state that I am strongly in support of an extropian party. I don't have a lot of time to compose and edit a super response, but I will put some of my thoughts out for you guys to take a gander at. I'll also say that I've never run for political office nor have I read much contemporary political thought, so much of this is just theoretical ideation and observation. Candidates: Most third-party candidates are hopeless. In order to compete politically our candidates need to be professional politicians. They need the affect, the appearance, and the attitude to be elected. In short, they need to be 'electable'. Issues: Most people are one-issue voters. If there are no advertised and promoted issues that deeply affect a particular individual they will either not vote or vote along party lines. However, most people use issues to decide whom not to vote for, in my experience. We need to decide which issues are most salient for extropian values and then be as centrist as possible on all other issues. I know, you all have your pet issues that you just have to espouse but if these aren't key planks you need to suck it up, take one for the party, and present a united, centrist face to the electorate. Accepting Change: Many people have an ego attachment to their political party and political beliefs and will not change unless their social situation changes radically or they are gently and invisibly guided to change. Social Stratification: People will vote for the party that improves their situation the most. This results in party boundaries along social class lines. We need to convince people of all socioeconomic back- grounds that extropianism will improve their life and their situation mroe than any of the other parties. Advertising and Promotion: It's hard to outspend the major parties. Grassroots, creative advertising is becoming more possible using the internet but we need a national means of coordinating it. Strategy: All of this is just idle speculation, and an experienced political strategist would probably put me to shame. We need someone with experience winning elections to give us advice. Lobbying, bribes, and graft: We have to convince big business to give us money. Everyone knows it is happening and it's an integral part of the modern political process. Pretending it doesn't exist is stupid, and ideological objections to it will ensure that we never achieve high office. Pragmatism is the way to go. Disentrenchment: We need to use our efforts not only to promote the extropian party, but the ideals of a true multi-party system. Easing ballot access is a big one. Our best bet may be to take over an existing political party and let the entrenchment of the two-party system work in our favor. Yours, Acy From cryofan at mylinuxisp.com Wed Jul 14 20:58:12 2004 From: cryofan at mylinuxisp.com (Randy Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:58:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: the "cancel the election" media ploy In-Reply-To: <200407141800.i6EI0DW14148@tick.javien.com> References: <200407141800.i6EI0DW14148@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <40F59E64.4040200@mylinuxisp.com> >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:18:49 -0700 >From: Samantha Atkins >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections >To: ExI chat list >Message-ID: <948b11e040714001862cad178 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >I don't see why we our society needs to answer this hypothetical >situation before the fact. Before the fact planning how to shutdown >the election and for how many reasons makes people pretty darn >nervous. If something that extreme happens we will have to deal with >it vis a vis the election when it happens. Too much planning in >terms of extremely horrendous but very small possibilities results in >paranoia and temptation to invoke emergency powers all ready to go. > >I certainly don't trust an incumbent to decide whether to hold the >election that could remove him. > > > I think that the reason this idea was "floated" this way by Bushco is that they know it will generate a lot of controversy among the media pundits. The media pundits are people who are knowledgeable about the import of such an action. So this is important to them. But this is not the set of people for whom this idea is being floated. It is meant for the average dumbass voter/citizen who is not really all that much into poltiics--Joe Sixpack. Joe and his wife mostly just care about their kids and their car and house and its value on the market, and their bills and what is on the TV and what is for dinner. By generating so much controversy among the media, Bushco has managed to penetrate that dense bone barrier around Joe Sixpack's cranium, and with that penetration, bushco has managed to get into their heads a little bit of the idea that the USA is still under seige by those bad guys who caused so much ruckus in NY a few years ago--911. Joe Sixpack usually doesn't read the whole news story--he just reads the headlines, or he hears a blurb about it on an MSNBC politics show when he is flippnig through the channels on his way from ESPN1 to ESPN2. Now that Bushco has done that, they can invoke the primal feelings of fear, hate, tribal loyalty, etc., associated with 911--and with Bush's role in the aftermath of 911. It was those same feelings that led to bush's 90% favorable rating in opinion polls after 911. If he can tap into those feelings, he can win. The media and pundits know this, I would reckon. I notice that they are not talking about that, though.... So this really has nothing to do with actually cancelling the election. It is just media manipulation. Relax.... From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 14 21:33:29 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <20040714213329.24941.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Acy James Stapp wrote: > I have had a few thoughts on extropianism as a > political > movement. If I may say so, you expressed them quite well. > In order > to compete > politically our candidates need to be professional > politicians. > They need the affect, the appearance, and the > attitude to be > elected. In short, they need to be 'electable'. Random thought: which extropians (not necessarily Extropians, but people who agree with our general outlook) are both electable and would not mind serving in elected office? (Or is this too likely to get into personal threads, some of which might be taken poorly, to be worth debating on the list, especially if it involves discussion of list members? If not...I suspect I'd have a lot to learn to become electable myself, and I would not wish to run for office right now even were that not the case.) From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jul 14 21:34:42 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:34:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [SK] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending Message-ID: <40F5A6F2.4D430E@mindspring.com> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 09:11:26PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > You still don't understand the US. We are a Common Law nation. Under > the Constitution, if something isn't specified, it doesn't mean you > can't do it, or can do it, it means you first go by what historical > precedents there are in the Common Law, particularly WRT individual > liberties (and there is ample precedent in the Common Law in dealing > with activities of traitors and enemy combatants, most of which are > actually quite grisly, which is why the Geneva Conventions were created > in the first place). This is simply incorrect, and ignores the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. The Constitution grants specific powers to the federal government. Article I, Section 8 gives Congress the power "to make all Law which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." If the power isn't explicitly granted, or necessary and proper for executing an explicitly granted power, then the federal government doesn't have the power. Now, since McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) the "necessary and proper" was broadened expansively, and Congress's ability to regulate "commerce" was broadly expanded in Gibbons v. Ogden (1824), but it's still the case that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" (10th Amendment) and that "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people" (9th Amendment). The latter has not frequently been referred to by the Supreme Court, but recently played a role in the striking down of Texas' sodomy laws (in Lawrence v. Texas). -- Jim Lippard -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jul 14 21:34:59 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:34:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [SK] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending Message-ID: <40F5A703.57CF4BA5@mindspring.com> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 09:13:44PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > I swore the same oath. Who did you swear it to? Try reading Lysander > Spooner's "No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority" if you want > some interesting reading on oaths of office. Spooner's treatise is a good debunking of theories of legitimacy based on "tacit consent" (or explicit consent). You might be interested in the response to Spooner in Randy Barnett's _Restoring the Lost Constitution_ (Princeton Univ. Press, 2003). (Barnett accepts Spooner's arguments against consent, but offers an alternative.) > As for declarations against the American people, have you ever wondered > why, when you get a traffic ticket, your name is spelled in all capital > letters? Because that isn't you, it is a corporate strawman the state > invented when you were born. It names that person, not you, as a 'nom > de guerre', or war name, for your act of belligerency against the > corporate occupation state. The corporate state can't regulate you, a > natural person, for violations of commercial contract (which is all > that statute/color of law is) unless you accept responsibility for that > corporate person. Say what? Where are you getting this from? You're not one of those people who thinks there are magic incantations that you can use in court that persuade judges that the laws don't apply to you, are you? The way things work in the real world is, unfortunately, much closer to "might makes right." The rule of law, not men, only works so long as enough people insist upon it and are willing to take action to throw people out of power who bend or break the rules. > When did that happen? When you accepted a social security number, got a > drivers license, applied for welfare or unemployment, or received any > benefit from the current day government which is not delineated in the > Constitution. You've given up your liberty for serfdom/POW status to > the corporate state. Ah, you are one of those people. Unfortunately, the distinctions you are drawing make no difference in reality--your arguments don't work in the courtroom. > That would free you. The Neutrality Act of 1940 guarantees it, if you > rebel against the corporate state, you lose your 14th amendment US > citizenship and regain your full State Citizenship. For those > interested in researching it, try reading the post-Civil War > Expatriation Act, then the Neutrality Act. Acts of rebellion and/or > secession nullify your US citizenship. > > Mine is nullified. My little flag presentation to Killington in March > did the trick. I'm now a NH National. Have you stopped paying federal income taxes? > > All I ever wanted out of life was to do biomedical > > research to help people live longer, healthier, and > > happier lives but the ghosts of Thomas Jefferson and > > every other patriot who has ever sacrificed money, > > time, or their life's blood on the altar of freedom > > would not let me sleep at night if I allowed such an > > overt perversion of everything America stands for to > > occur. Tread on me at your peril, Mr. Bush. > > Ah, well, engage in interstate commerce at your own peril. There lies > the power of US tyranny. Unfortunately, the definition of "commerce" in the commerce clause has been extended far beyond the original meaning, even including actions that are neither trade nor cross state lines. (One recent reversal is Raich v. Ashcroft, in which the above-cited Randy Barnett was one of the attorneys for the plaintiff--at the moment, in the 9th Circuit, the cultivation of cannabis for personal medical use is legal, and the federal government is enjoined from prosecutions. One of the plaintiff's arguments which was upheld by the 9th Circuit is that the feds have no power to regulate since there is no interstate commerce involved.) -- Jim Lippard -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 22:15:14 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <008701c46959$af165a20$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040714221514.38030.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> One might speculate that some of > the > terrorists would want to help reelect Bush, for they > know > he will fight, and they desperately want to fight. > The U.S. > joining the actual battle makes it easier for them > to recruit. > Also Bush dethroned Saddam, who they hate. There is an old warrior's proverb: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." The implications of that are discomfitting to say the least. > Another interesting question is how European > elections > will be swayed by the terrorist attacks that will > likely > precede the next several elections there. > My speculation: a major 9-11-ish attack would help > elect > Bush, for the USian proletariat doesn't know if the > other > guy will fight. I seriously doubt the US will do > like > unto Spain and elect the other guy if there is an > attack in the days preceding the election. That > would > be too much like being held hostage. By whom? Bush or the terrorists? Altho I see > little > difference between the two major candidates, it is > so > sad to think the election could be decided by > terrorists. > Which brings me to the question who are the terrorists? Those few random or organized individuals that kill people or the people that make sure that you know it happens, wherever it happens and whenever it happens and incedently, kill people also? Will you be bullied by Bush's henchmen into voting him back in? There are definitive records that Al-Kaeda was a CIA financed operation, trained and channeled money by the turkish intellegence as a CIA proxy, to fight the Soviet Union during their occupation of Afghanistan. The operatives that knew the terrorists then, still know them now. Probably go to Hooters together with them before the "big day" when they get to martyr themselves on international television. People with lots of money and guns who have dominated alpha male style from the dawn of time and they have used the media to scare people into doubt, worry, and fear. Weakening our resolve and making us easy to manipulate. They fooled me during the eighties, I was a teenager back then so I would have been liable to buy some "magic beans". I believed that the Soviet Union was a perpetual threat. I could feel the USSR's nukes hanging over my head. The media really does love telling us the sky may fall. The whole thing in Iraq has its roots in the Ollie North scandals of the 1980's. That was considered a betrayal of Sadaam Hussein by the military/industrial/media complex that was selling weapons to his enemies in Iran. These men take every opportunity to convince us that this world is a big scary place filled with danger waiting to strike around every corner. All so the government can borrow huge sums of money from their friends at high interest rates to buy guns, missiles, and nukes, that their other friends manufacture, to protect me from the enemy that their other friends in the media tell me inccessently about. Enemies to whom they have appently loaned money to and sold weapons to to begin with. At least back during the "cold war" this manufactured threat was one that was plainly visible. Now they have us believing in the "boogie man". A vague uncertain threat that is statistically safer for me to face than getting on the freeway. Jimmy Carter tried to protect us from excessive speed related fatalities but we hated that so we are willing to risk our lives for speed but not for freedom? Do not allow yourself to be afraid. Spread the word. The rest of the world needs us as much as we need it. Fear not. Fear is unextropic. Fear is the mindkiller. Vote aginst the fear and death mongers. Vote for the Other Guy. King George must go! ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From max at maxmore.com Wed Jul 14 15:31:04 2004 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:31:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] NeoFiles #8, "Transhumanist mainman Max More" Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040714102732.01dd6c48@mail.earthlink.net> From RU Sirius: NeoFiles Issue #8 is live! Transhumanist mainman Max More talks with RU Sirius. Also; Play Ethic, Thinking Outside of the Bank, and Flying Cars http://www.life-enhancement.com/NeoFiles _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 14 23:33:58 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:33:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ANOTHER DISGRACEFULLY SELF-SERVING AD: a book sale Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040714182937.01cb16d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I'm delighted to announce that I've just placed my new science fantasy novel, GOD PLAYERS, with John Oakes, formerly of the notable small press Four Walls Eight Windows, now publisher of Thunder's Mouth Press, an imprint of Avalon Publishing. The novel has singularity elements, to say the least, and will be scheduled for next spring. Damien Broderick From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jul 15 00:20:59 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:20:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] ANOTHER DISGRACEFULLY SELF-SERVING AD: a book sale References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040714182937.01cb16d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002301c46a01$9b8df5a0$3b893cd1@neptune> On Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:33 PM Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: > I'm delighted to announce that I've just > placed my new science fantasy novel, > GOD PLAYERS, with John Oakes, > formerly of the notable small press > Four Walls Eight Windows, now > publisher of Thunder's Mouth Press, > an imprint of Avalon Publishing. The > novel has singularity elements, to say > the least, and will be scheduled for > next spring. Congratulations! Thanks for also throwing my reading list out of whack again.:) Regards, Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html From gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 15 00:16:30 2004 From: gpropf1 at cfl.rr.com (Gregory Propf) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:16:30 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It In-Reply-To: <200407141614.i6EGE6Jc028302@br549.indconet.com> References: <200407141614.i6EGE6Jc028302@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <40F5CCDE.9080600@cfl.rr.com> Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: >Harvey, > >I am curious if you maybe interested with your background in voice. I am >President of a group called OSSRI (Open Source Speech Recognition >Initiative) which focuses on an Open Platform for speech and speech >development, mainly Linux. We have members from CMU, the OpenOffice.org >project, and NASA as members of the group. We work to promote speech related >technologies mostly for those with disabilities. We also promote speech >enabled solutions to make the human experience better. It is free to join >and we don't charge dues. I would be pleased if you take me up on the offer >as it is always great to have great minds involved. > >The link is: www.ossri.org > Glad to see this happening. My mom has multiple handicaps that make her interaction with computers inconvenient to say the least. I've set her up with Linux for cost, security and other reasons and this kind of thing is very necessary for people like her. I'm a programmer and long time Penguinhead, I may be able to help. From exi-info at extropy.org Thu Jul 15 00:35:12 2004 From: exi-info at extropy.org (Extropy Institute) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy Institute Newsletter Message-ID: <1011310540970.1011086851128.2058.1.312026@scheduler> Extropy Institute Newsletter July News (07-14-04) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greetings! We are featuring four topics in this month's Exponent Newsletter.

First is the new article by R.U. Sirius in NeoFiles on Max More. "R.U. Sirius is co- founder of MONDO 2000, vocalist-and-lead theoretician for MONDO. R.U. co-authored two books with former MONDO 2000 Senior Editor St. Jude, How to Mutate and Take Over the World (fiction, Ballantine Books, fall, 1995) and Cyberpunk Handbook: The Real Cyberpunk Fake Book (humor, Random House, fall, 1995)." Also in this Exponent is the announcement of the new meeting hall for the Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium, for better communication amongst transhumanist organizations.

Another point of interest is space architect John Spencer and his new book, Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? . John has been an early advocate of transhuman ideas in Los Angeles since way back in the early 1980s. He is also on ExI's Executive Advisory Team (EAT).

Lastly, and with a finger on a rapid pulse, is a reminder to register for the TransVision 2004 Conference to be held in Toronto, Canada from August 6 - 8th.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the News: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * R.U. Sirius Talks with Max More * "Transhumanist Mainman" in NeoFiles * Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium * John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! * Register for TransVision 2004 - Toronto, Canada August 6-8, 2004 R.U. Sirius Talks with Max More ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Read R.U. Sirius's NeoFiles Article here - >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.wsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.life-enhancement.com%2FNeoFiles%2Fdefault.asp%3FID%3D39 "Transhumanist Mainman" in NeoFiles ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Max More: Transhumanist Mainman
Max In Conversation With R.U. - an excerpt from the article. NF: One thing both the precautionary and Proactionary principles have in common is that they are based largely on foresight and prediction. These are ultimately subjective thought processes, even when factually based, true? How do we develop forecasting to the highest level of possible accuracy? "MM: Thank you, RU, for such a vital closing question. If we're going to avoid costly, even deadly, errors of judgment, and if we're to make the most of the future, we must improve our forecasting abilities. Human brains really stink when it comes to forecasting; they evolved to enhance survival under radically different, simpler circumstances. The challenge just keeps mounting as the social-technological environment becomes more complex. Information technology, as we all know, is accelerating the transmission of ideas, practices, and responses. Various human biases and tendencies, such as our imitative behavior, is generating faster and faster cycles, greater instability, and higher levels of uncertainty (at least over short periods of time). And further - "MM: Now, I'm not sure that forecasting and prediction are always or necessarily "ultimately subjective thought processes." Forecasting methods can be tested. Scott Armstrong has done amazing work in this area. The book he produced in collaboration with many others, The Principles of Forecasting should be in the library of neophiles of every stripe. As Armstrong and others have demonstrated, some forecasting methods are more reliable than others, or work better in particular kinds of situations. Scott especially likes role-playing, and has shown that it routinely beats out other methods such as expert opinions.

"MM: We neophiles now have a large toolkit of forecasting and decision-making methods available to us. We need to be aware of the options, and learn how to choose the right tool for the job, then use that tool carefully. I've written quite a bit about this, most recently summarizing a major chunk of the challenge in "Debugging Executive Decision Making." Simply finding forecasting methods that reduce subjectivity in judgment is easy. There are plenty of them: Scenario planning, role playing, agent-based modeling, idea futures markets, prospective hindsight, Delphi Survey, peripheral sensing and scanning, reference-class forecasting, sensemaking software, even the emerging fields of neuroeconomics and psychomarketing, or the tongue-twisting, Nobel Prize-winning tool of autoregressive conditional heteroskedasticity. Far more challenging is the task of choosing the most effective and fitting method." Read more ... >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.wsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.life-enhancement.com%2FNeoFiles%2Fdefault.asp%3FID%3D39 Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The TransColloquium is a meeting place for futurist organizations in our community to come together, calendar events, leverage our joint knowledge and capabilities, discuss issues, and exchange ideas concerning our shared transhumanist culture. Since our community has grown over the years, it is time that we have a forum where no one organization dominates, and one which provides a fluid, shared space for our community. The first meeting will be held in the online meeting room from August 22 through 24, 2004.

Each meeting will be chaired by a different organization. That organization will set the agenda, accepting suggestions from the Colloquium community. Extropy Institue will be chairing the first meeting and Foresight Institute has been selected to moderate. Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.6sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transcolloquium.org John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? "The Space Tourism Quest is the first book published in the United States on the space tourism theme. It was written and designed by one of the worlds leading authorities and pioneers in the growing field of space tourism, space architect, John Spencer. Founder and president of the Space Tourism Society, (STS) www.spacetourismsociety.org.

"In it he premieres his vision, the "Destiny" orbital super yacht design and master development industry plan for expanding the space tourism movement and creating the long-term space tourism industry.

"His plan offers opportunities for non-rocket scientists to participate today, to make a difference, and to have a wonderful time in the process." - We asked John says he would like to participate as a space architect in an Extro Conference Designing the Future in 2005/2006. All go and thumbs-up to a positive and resounding, "Yes I would!" John Spencer has been making a difference ever since he started his first space architecture firm in Hollywood in the late 1970s. Keeping one foot in front of the other and practicing his space walk, he will pioneer what he calls "the design frontier."

John sees us (transhumans) in a highly positive light with "limitless opportunities to improve our species in a consicous and meaningfull way." In doing so, he says that we need to find the "Simplest solutions and do that again and again until it all looks so obviously simple that everyone will say 'Anyone could design that, and they will never know what you went through, how much [God] went through before developing his hydrogen atoms and blades of grass and eggs.'" Buckminster Fuller, April 18, 1974 Check it out on Amazon - >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.5sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fexec%2Fobidos%2Ftg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1894959086%2Fqid%3D1089829613%2Fsr%3D1-13%2Fref%3Dsr_1_13%2F002-0090227-5260007%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks Register for TransVision 2004 - Toronto, Canada August 6-8, 2004 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't forget to register for TransVision 2004! Register Now! >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.4sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanism.org%2Ftv%2F2004%2Fregistration.shtml ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quick Links... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Extropy Institute >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.ysx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fnew.extropy.org%2F The Proactionary Principle >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.zsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Fproactionaryprinciple.htm How do I join ExI? >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.9sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Fmembership.htm Subscribe to Extropy-Chat email list? >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.8sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Femaillists.htm Go to Transhumanist Arts & Culture to Exhibit your Digital Arts at TransVision 2004! >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.7sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanist.biz ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email: info at extropy.org voice: 512 263-2749 web: http://www.extropy.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Extropy Institute | 10709 Pointe View Drive | Austin | TX | 78738 This email was sent to extropy-chat at extropy.org, by Extropy Institute. Update your profile http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&t=1011310540970&m=1011086851128&ea=extropy-chat%40extropy.org Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=un&t=1011310540970&m=1011086851128&ea=extropy-chat%40extropy.org Privacy Policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 02:09:09 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:09:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <20040714213329.24941.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d501c46a10$b79569e0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Adrian Tymes ... > > Random thought: which extropians (not necessarily > Extropians, but people who agree with our general > outlook) are both electable and would not mind serving > in elected office?... Senators seldom get elected president because they have a public record of stuff they voted for. It is difficult to create an image, when they already have a record. Many of us here are not electable simply because of stuff we have posted in this public forum. I have posted a bunch of wacky stuff here, cutting up and trying to entertain, such as the Hoerkheimer riffs a couple yrs ago, and other silliness. This would all come back to haunt me bigtime, should I ever decide to run for public office. So the ExI archives are good for that at least. {8^D spike From duggerj1 at charter.net Thu Jul 15 02:19:47 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (Jay Dugger) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:19:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <20040714054842.85631.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040714054842.85631.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F5E9C3.4040407@charter.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > >>Found the transhumanist party? > > > Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one > widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major > political party? (At least, one of the two major > parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs > were not that different from ExI's official > philosophy.) Which piece of science fiction? Steele's Jericho Iteration and some of his other fiction mention Extropians, but not with fidelity nor as a political party. Pretty far from the meat of your post, but I took a New Year's resolution to discuss politics less. -- Jay Dugger From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jul 15 03:18:57 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <40F5E9C3.4040407@charter.net> Message-ID: <20040715031857.57791.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay Dugger wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least > one > > widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major > > political party? (At least, one of the two major > > parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs > > were not that different from ExI's official > > philosophy.) > > Which piece of science fiction? Computer game: X-COM III, also titled in some releases as X-COM: Apocalypse. By Atari, copyright 1997. Not exactly Asimov-level classic literature, but from what I've been able to find, it still has some fans even 7 years later. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 06:07:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:07:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <20040714221514.38030.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> The past few days I have been pondering mechanisms for technologically advanced societies entering equilibrium. Nearly all sci-fi stories postulate advanced societies that did not experience runaway AI and appear to be at least stable. The example of Japan in the 18th century was offered. Another I thought of was Australopithecus afarensis, human ancestors who made stone tools in the same way for a million years. What I am looking for are mechanisms that can cause our change rate to dampen out to some constant: we might still make progress but without an explosive singularity event. I ran across some old motorcycle magazines from the 1970s. I looked them over, each stimulating memories from my misspent childhood and youth. Then I noticed something: the old magazines were different from the modern in one very striking way. The old magazines contained articles that were 5,6 sometimes as many as 8 pages long. The new ones seldom have anything over 2 pages, and even then the text is abbreviated, with more charts. It isn't so much dumbed down (it might be that) as it is speeded up. The new rags are designed for people in a hurry. ---> Or rather around people with a very short attention span. Are you still reading down here? Are we getting conditioned for hit-and-run information gathering from the internet? How many of you read tomes such as Asimov's Foundation novels in your missspent youth? Could you do it today? Do you read long books today? When did you stop? About the time you took up the internet? Or video games? Perhaps society's change rate will saturate or reach some kind of equilibrium because we will overstimulate our minds beyond our ability to maintain focus. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 06:31:37 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:31:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00f701c46a35$62078f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Spike: > Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium > ...Another I thought of was Australopithecus afarensis, > human ancestors who made stone tools in the same way > for a million years... Oops I meant Homo habilis, and now that I think it over I don't think h.habilis was around that long. A small voice in the back of my mind is telling me human toolmaking only goes back ~100k yrs. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jul 15 06:48:47 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:48:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040714221514.38030.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715014516.01c23090@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:07 PM 7/14/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: >Do you read long books today? Hard not to. Where are the short ones? >When did you stop? Some people stopped, but unless they stopped reading fantastic fiction entirely they're*stuck* with looong, absurdly long novels and trilogies and worse. Comfort fantasy, by and large (rather than hard sf), but even the sf is longish. Mainstream novels are also on the hefty side, mostly. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jul 15 07:40:08 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:40:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hawking says information *can* escape black holes Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715023818.01d65bf8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> From New Scientist: Hawking cracks black hole paradox 19:00 14 July 04 Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. After nearly 30 years of arguing that a black hole destroys everything that falls into it, Stephen Hawking is saying he was wrong. It seems that black holes may after all allow information within them to escape. Hawking will present his latest finding at a conference in Ireland next week. The about-turn might cost Hawking, a physicist at the University of Cambridge, an encyclopaedia because of a bet he made in 1997. More importantly, it might solve one of the long-standing puzzles in modern physics, known as the black hole information paradox. It was Hawking's own work that created the paradox. In 1976, he calculated that once a black hole forms, it starts losing mass by radiating energy. This "Hawking radiation" contains no information about the matter inside the black hole and once the black hole evaporates, all information is lost. But this conflicts with the laws of quantum physics, which say that such information can never be completely wiped out. Hawking's argument was that the intense gravitational fields of black holes somehow unravel the laws of quantum physics. Other physicists have tried to chip away at this paradox. Earlier in 2004, Samir Mathur of Ohio State University in Columbus and his colleagues showed that if a black hole is modelled according to string theory - in which the universe is made of tiny, vibrating strings rather than point-like particles - then the black hole becomes a giant tangle of strings. And the Hawking radiation emitted by this "fuzzball" does contain information about the insides of a black hole (New Scientist print edition, 13 March). Big reputation Now, it seems that Hawking too has an answer to the conundrum and the physics community is abuzz with the news. Hawking requested at the last minute that he be allowed to present his findings at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland. "He sent a note saying 'I have solved the black hole information paradox and I want to talk about it'," says Curt Cutler, a physicist at the Albert Einstein Institute in Golm, Germany, who is chairing the conference's scientific committee. "I haven't seen a preprint [of the paper]. To be quite honest, I went on Hawking's reputation." Though Hawking has not yet revealed the detailed maths behind his finding, sketchy details have emerged from a seminar Hawking gave at Cambridge. According to Cambridge colleague Gary Gibbons, an expert on the physics of black holes who was at the seminar, Hawking's black holes, unlike classic black holes, do not have a well-defined event horizon that hides everything within them from the outside world. In essence, his new black holes now never quite become the kind that gobble up everything. Instead, they keep emitting radiation for a long time, and eventually open up to reveal the information within. "It's possible that what he presented in the seminar is a solution," says Gibbons. "But I think you have to say the jury is still out." Forever hidden At the conference, Hawking will have an hour on 21 July to make his case. If he succeeds, then, ironically, he will lose a bet that he and theoretical physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena made with John Preskill, also of Caltech. They argued that "information swallowed by a black hole is forever hidden, and can never be revealed". "Since Stephen has changed his view and now believes that black holes do not destroy information, I expect him [and Kip] to concede the bet," Preskill told New Scientist. The duo are expected to present Preskill with an encyclopaedia of his choice "from which information can be recovered at will". Jenny Hogan From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jul 15 08:14:16 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:14:16 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040714221514.38030.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040715081416.GE1141@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 11:07:21PM -0700, Spike wrote: > Are you still reading down here? Are we getting Yeah. Though my email and web reading habit does make it more difficult to read longer articles (and write papers, instead of a couple of pithy morsels). I usually tend to skim them. Otoh, it's due to me interlacing being online with work. > conditioned for hit-and-run information gathering > from the internet? How many of you read tomes such > as Asimov's Foundation novels in your missspent youth? > Could you do it today? Do you read long books today? No. I presume it's work, not age artifact. > When did you stop? About the time you took up the About two years ago. > internet? Or video games? I stopped playing these rogue-type games a whole while back. Was never into FPS, think their world view sucks. Blowing shit away as primary mode of interaction is a major turn-off. A pity, Quake 3 would be such a nice VR engine. > Perhaps society's change rate will saturate or reach > some kind of equilibrium because we will overstimulate > our minds beyond our ability to maintain focus. Let machines maintain focus, they're good at that. Once we're at autonomous vehicles and cheap enough mobile robotic platforms (Segway can't climb stairs, but Kamen's wheelchair can, is a lot more expensive, though). Put a lot of crunch on wheels with video and manipulators, and we're talking some shop. Will put a lot of people out of work. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Jul 15 08:20:48 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:20:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Jim Lewis Update References: <1089741140.18708@whirlwind.he.net><024501c4691e$4b6852c0$55aa1218@Nano> Message-ID: <005101c46a44$a824f050$55aa1218@Nano> Thank you MB for your kind words. It is very much appreciated. Gina Gina, you and Jim will be in my thoughts. Best wishes for successsful treatment! Regards, MB On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Gina Miller wrote: > Dear friends, as often as I can I will try to report to you Jim's experiences throughout his treatments. For those who don't know, Jim is the Foresight webmaster and on the board of Alcor, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma ( http://www.multiplemyeloma.org/ ) on May 7th. The treatment is chemo and then a stem cell transplant. > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Thu Jul 15 10:02:58 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:02:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Read All About It Message-ID: This is an excellent resource, with roots in the repetitive strain injury community: Speech Recognition FAQ http://www.tifaq.com/speech.html This group of people: The Archimedes Project, has been in this field for while- building input technologies for the disabled. http://archimedes.stanford.edu/ I still have one of their first experiments ten years ago, controlling the movement of the mouse on the screen of my Mac IIci via Dragon dicate running on a 386 machine, converting the DOS keys into Mac ADB commands. Now the system is much more sophisticated, called the "Total Access System". One of the main developers is Neil Scott. Neil Scott: Total Access System http://hci.stanford.edu/cs547/abstracts/92-93/930203-scott.html http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53930,00.html [I cannot find a web page for the Total Access System, only press reports. I suppose you must contact Neil Scott or one of the Archimedes Project people for that.] Finally, my (a little bit dated) repetitive strain injury page which might be useful for all of you computer users out there. http://www.amara.com/aboutme/rsi.html Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Whatever you are, be a good one." --Abraham Lincoln From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jul 15 09:21:42 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:21:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy Institute Newsletter In-Reply-To: <1011310540970.1011086851128.2058.1.312026@scheduler> References: <1011310540970.1011086851128.2058.1.312026@scheduler> Message-ID: <20040715092142.GP1141@leitl.org> Is there any reason there's HTML markup and bad formatting in the plain text version of this document? On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 08:35:12PM -0400, Extropy Institute wrote: > Extropy Institute Newsletter > July News (07-14-04) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Greetings! > > We are featuring four topics in this month's Exponent > Newsletter.

First is the new article by R.U. > Sirius in NeoFiles on Max More. "R.U. > Sirius is co- > founder of MONDO > 2000, vocalist-and-lead theoretician for MONDO. > R.U. co-authored two books with former > MONDO 2000 Senior Editor St. Jude, How to > Mutate > and Take Over the World (fiction, Ballantine Books, > fall, > 1995) and Cyberpunk Handbook: The Real > Cyberpunk > Fake Book (humor, Random House, fall, 1995)." > > Also in this Exponent is the announcement of > the new meeting hall for the Transhumanist > Cooperative Colloquium, for > better communication amongst transhumanist > organizations.

> > Another point of interest is space architect John > Spencer and his new > book, Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? > . > John has been an early advocate of > transhuman ideas in Los Angeles since way back in the > early > 1980s. He is also on ExI's > Executive Advisory Team (EAT).

> > Lastly, and with a finger on a rapid pulse, is a reminder > to register for the TransVision 2004 Conference > to be held in Toronto, Canada from August 6 - 8th.

> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > In the News: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * R.U. Sirius Talks with Max More > * "Transhumanist Mainman" in NeoFiles > * Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium > * John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! > * Register for TransVision 2004 - Toronto, Canada August 6-8, 2004 > > > R.U. Sirius Talks with Max More > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Read R.U. Sirius's NeoFiles Article here - >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.wsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.life-enhancement.com%2FNeoFiles%2Fdefault.asp%3FID%3D39 > > "Transhumanist Mainman" in NeoFiles > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Max More: Transhumanist Mainman
> Max In Conversation With R.U. - an excerpt from the > article. > > NF: One thing both the precautionary and Proactionary > principles have in common is that they are based > largely on foresight and prediction. These are ultimately > subjective thought processes, even when factually > based, true? How do we develop forecasting to the > highest level of possible accuracy? > > "MM: Thank you, RU, for such a vital closing question. > If > we're going to avoid costly, even deadly, errors of > judgment, and if we're to make the most of the future, > we must improve our forecasting abilities. Human brains > really stink when it comes to forecasting; they evolved > to enhance survival under radically different, simpler > circumstances. The challenge just keeps mounting as > the social-technological environment becomes more > complex. Information technology, as we all know, is > accelerating the transmission of ideas, practices, and > responses. Various human biases and tendencies, such > as our imitative behavior, is generating faster and > faster cycles, greater instability, and higher levels of > uncertainty (at least over short periods of time). > > And further - > > "MM: Now, I'm not sure that forecasting and prediction > are > always or necessarily "ultimately subjective thought > processes." Forecasting methods can be tested. Scott > Armstrong has done amazing work in this area. The > book he produced in collaboration with many others, > The Principles of Forecasting should be in the library of > neophiles of every stripe. As Armstrong and others > have demonstrated, some forecasting methods are > more reliable than others, or work better in particular > kinds of situations. Scott especially likes role-playing, > and has shown that it routinely beats out other > methods such as expert opinions.

> > "MM: We neophiles now have a large toolkit of > forecasting > and decision-making methods available to us. We need > to be aware of the options, and learn how to choose > the right tool for the job, then use that tool carefully. > I've written quite a bit about this, most recently > summarizing a major chunk of the challenge > in "Debugging Executive Decision Making." Simply > finding forecasting methods that reduce subjectivity in > judgment is easy. There are plenty of them: Scenario > planning, role playing, agent-based modeling, idea > futures markets, prospective hindsight, Delphi Survey, > peripheral sensing and scanning, reference-class > forecasting, sensemaking software, even the emerging > fields of neuroeconomics and psychomarketing, or the > tongue-twisting, Nobel Prize-winning tool of > autoregressive conditional heteroskedasticity. Far more > challenging is the task of choosing the most effective > and fitting method." > > Read more ... >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.wsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.life-enhancement.com%2FNeoFiles%2Fdefault.asp%3FID%3D39 > > Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > The TransColloquium is a meeting place for futurist > organizations in our community to come together, > calendar events, leverage our joint knowledge and > capabilities, discuss issues, and exchange ideas > concerning our shared transhumanist culture. Since our > community has grown over the years, it is time that we > have a forum where no one organization dominates, and > one which provides a fluid, shared space for our > community. > > The first meeting will be held in the online meeting room > from August 22 through 24, 2004.

> > Each meeting will be chaired by a different organization. > That organization will set the agenda, accepting > suggestions from the Colloquium community. > > Extropy Institue will be chairing the first meeting and > Foresight Institute has been selected to moderate. > > Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.6sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transcolloquium.org > > John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? > > "The Space Tourism Quest is the first book published in > the United States on the space tourism theme. It was > written and designed by one of the worlds leading > authorities and pioneers in the growing field of space > tourism, space architect, John Spencer. Founder and > president of the Space Tourism Society, (STS) > www.spacetourismsociety.org.

> > "In it he premieres his vision, the "Destiny" orbital super > yacht design and master development industry plan for > expanding the space tourism movement and creating > the long-term space tourism industry.

> > "His plan offers opportunities for non-rocket scientists > to participate today, to make a difference, and to have > a wonderful time in the process." > > - We asked John says he would like to participate as a > space architect in an Extro Conference Designing > the Future in 2005/2006. All go and thumbs-up to a > positive and resounding, "Yes I would!" > > John Spencer has been making a difference ever since > he started his first space architecture firm in Hollywood > in the late 1970s. Keeping one foot in front of the > other and practicing his space walk, he will pioneer > what he calls "the design frontier." > >

John sees us (transhumans) in a highly positive > light with "limitless opportunities to improve our > species in a consicous and meaningfull way." > > > In doing so, he says that we need to find > the "Simplest > solutions and do that again and again until it all looks > so obviously simple that everyone will say 'Anyone > could design that, and they will > never know what you went through, how much > [God] > went through before developing > his hydrogen atoms and blades of grass and eggs.'" > Buckminster Fuller, April 18, 1974 > > Check it out on Amazon - >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.5sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fexec%2Fobidos%2Ftg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1894959086%2Fqid%3D1089829613%2Fsr%3D1-13%2Fref%3Dsr_1_13%2F002-0090227-5260007%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks > > Register for TransVision 2004 - Toronto, Canada August 6-8, 2004 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Don't forget to register for TransVision 2004! > > Register Now! >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.4sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanism.org%2Ftv%2F2004%2Fregistration.shtml > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Quick Links... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Extropy Institute >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.ysx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fnew.extropy.org%2F > The Proactionary Principle >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.zsx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Fproactionaryprinciple.htm > How do I join ExI? >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.9sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Fmembership.htm > Subscribe to Extropy-Chat email list? >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.8sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Femaillists.htm > Go to Transhumanist Arts & Culture to Exhibit your Digital Arts at TransVision 2004! >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=kfo7m8n6.rmatvyn6.7sx7n8n6.yb4rxun6.2058&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanist.biz > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > email: info at extropy.org > voice: 512 263-2749 > web: http://www.extropy.org > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Extropy Institute | 10709 Pointe View Drive | Austin | TX | 78738 > > This email was sent to extropy-chat at extropy.org, > by Extropy Institute. > > Update your profile > http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&t=1011310540970&m=1011086851128&ea=extropy-chat%40extropy.org > > Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) > http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=un&t=1011310540970&m=1011086851128&ea=extropy-chat%40extropy.org > > Privacy Policy: > http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp > > Powered by > Constant Contact(R) > www.constantcontact.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Thu Jul 15 19:37:05 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:37:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <00d501c46a10$b79569e0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00d501c46a10$b79569e0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40F6DCE1.1070400@optusnet.com.au> Spike wrote: >>Adrian Tymes > > ... > >>Random thought: which extropians (not necessarily >>Extropians, but people who agree with our general >>outlook) are both electable and would not mind serving >>in elected office?... > > > > Senators seldom get elected president because they > have a public record of stuff they voted for. It is > difficult to create an image, when they already have > a record. Many of us here are not electable simply > because of stuff we have posted in this public forum. > I have posted a bunch of wacky stuff here, cutting up > and trying to entertain, such as the Hoerkheimer riffs > a couple yrs ago, and other silliness. This would all > come back to haunt me bigtime, should I ever decide to > run for public office. > > So the ExI archives are good for that at least. > > {8^D > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > But, but.... the Hoerrkheimer stuff is TRUE!!!! From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Jul 15 12:50:51 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:50:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f701c46a35$62078f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00f701c46a35$62078f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <04Jul15.085051-0400_edt.312489-20088+3741@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Spike writes: > A small voice in the back of my mind is telling me > human toolmaking only goes back ~100k yrs. I knew I wasn't the only one hearing those voices! -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 13:53:26 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:53:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium Message-ID: >From: Damien Broderick > >Some people stopped, but unless they stopped reading fantastic fiction >entirely they're*stuck* with looong, absurdly long novels and trilogies and >worse. Comfort fantasy, by and large (rather than hard sf), but even the sf >is longish. Mainstream novels are also on the hefty side, mostly. Lately, I've been reading GenX fluff fiction by the likes of Douglas Coupland, Alex Garland, Chuck Palahniuk, Nick Hornby etc and almost all their books are under 300 pages and thats with generous spacing and fots. There are still a few hefty sci-fi and fantasy novels I occasionally read, but mostly just trying to finish out series I started years ago. I recently avoided the new Neal Stephenson books because of their size (900 pages x3 books) although I loved Cryptonomicon. I find that I don't have the time to commit to a huge book. I need my entertainment in bundles of small pages that I can go through chapter by chapter. BAL From scerir at libero.it Thu Jul 15 14:18:59 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:18:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] nano reads spin References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715023818.01d65bf8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c46a76$ac3e8480$7dc21b97@administxl09yj> IBM announces: http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/20040714_nanoscale.shtml http://www.almaden.ibm.com/st/nanoscale_science/asms/mrfm/ see also http://newton.ex.ac.uk/aip/latest.html and "Imaging techniques: Seeing single spins" by P. CHRIS HAMMEL, and "Single spin detection by magnetic resonance force microscopy", by D. RUGAR, R. BUDAKIAN, H. J. MAMIN & B. W. CHUI, in Nature, current issue. It looks quite promising for the future of nano technology, medicine, quantum computers, and all that. (Damien: has 'reading single spins' something to do with performing parapsy effects experiments?) s. From scerir at libero.it Thu Jul 15 14:32:58 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:32:58 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hawking says information *can* escape black holes References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715023818.01d65bf8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003001c46a78$a07330e0$7dc21b97@administxl09yj> > At the conference, Hawking will have an hour on 21 July to make his case. > If he succeeds, then, ironically, he will lose a bet that he and > theoretical physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology > (Caltech) in Pasadena made with John Preskill, also of Caltech. About that bet read more at the link below. http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040712/full/040712-12.html The GR17, the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation, takes place from 18th to 23rd July 2004 in Dublin, Ireland, http://www.dcu.ie/~nolanb/gr17.htm It seems that Stephen Hawking gives a lecture on "The information paradox for black holes". The abstract sounds as: "The Euclidean path integral over all topologically trivial metrics can be done by time slicing and so is unitary when analytically continued to the Lorentzian. On the other hand, the path integral over all topologically non-trivial metrics is asymptotically independent of the initial state. Thus the total path integral is unitary and information is not lost in the formation and evaporation of black holes. The way the information gets out seems to be that a true event horizon never forms, just an apparent horizon". From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 15:07:58 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:07:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hawking says information *can* escape black holes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040715023818.01d65bf8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000201c46a7d$84a441b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick > After nearly 30 years of arguing that a black hole destroys > everything that falls into it, Stephen Hawking is saying he was wrong. It > seems that black holes may after all allow information within them to escape. Hawking is right. I learned everything I know from a black hole. {8^D spike Some of the artists from the '60s are revising their hits with new lyrics to accommodate the aging baby boomers. This is good news for "those feeling a little older " and missing those great old tunes. >Herman's Hermits >"MRS. BROWN, YOU'VE GOT A LOVELY WALKER" > >The Bee Gees >"HOW CAN YOU MEND A BROKEN HIP" > >Bobby Darin >"SPLISH, SPLASH, I WAS HAVIN' A FLASH" > >Ringo Starr >"I GET BY WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM DEPENDS" > >Roberta Flack >"THE FIRST TIME EVER I FORGOT YOUR FACE" > >Johnny Nash >"I CAN'T SEE CLEARLY NOW" > >Paul Simon >"FIFTY WAYS TO LOSE YOUR LIVER" > >Commodores >"ONCE, TWICE, THREE TIMES TO THE BATHROOM" > >Marvin Gaye >"I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPE NUTS" > >Procol Harem >"A WHITER SHADE OF HAIR" > >Leo Sayer >"YOU MAKE ME FEEL LIKE NAPPING" > >The Temptations >"PAPA'S GOT A KIDNEY STONE" > >ABBA >"DENTURE QUEEN" From info at extropy.org Thu Jul 15 15:10:39 2004 From: info at extropy.org (Extropy Institute) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] News from Extropy Institute Message-ID: <1015340291.1089905422431.JavaMail.wasadmin@ui2> Extropy Institute Newsletter Exponent July 15, 2004 Greetings! We are featuring four topics in this month's Exponent Newsletter. First is the new article by R.U. Sirius in NeoFiles on Max More. "R.U. Sirius is co-founder of MONDO 2000, vocalist- and-lead theoretician for MONDO. R.U. co-authored two books with former MONDO 2000 Senior Editor St. Jude, How to Mutate and Take Over the World (fiction, Ballantine Books, fall, 1995) and Cyberpunk Handbook: The Real Cyberpunk Fake Book (humor, Random House, fall, 1995)." Also in this Exponent is the announcement of the new meeting hall for the Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium, for better communication amongst transhumanist organizations. Another point of interest is space architect John Spencer and his new book, Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? John has been an early advocate of transhuman ideas in Los Angeles since way back in the early 1980s. He is also on ExI's Executive Advisory Team (EAT). Lastly, and with a finger on a rapid pulse, is a reminder to register for the TransVision 2004 Conference to be held in Toronto, Canada from August 6 - 8th. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In this issue: * "Transhumanist Mainman" Max More in NeoFiles * Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium * John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! * Register for TransVision 2004! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Article: R.U. Sirius Talks with Max More ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Transhumanist Mainman" Max More in NeoFiles Excerpt from the article: NeoFiles: One thing both the precautionary and Proactionary principles have in common is that they are based largely on foresight and prediction. These are ultimately subjective thought processes, even when factually based, true? How do we develop forecasting to the highest level of possible accuracy? "Max More: Thank you, RU, for such a vital closing question. If we're going to avoid costly, even deadly, errors of judgment, and if we're to make the most of the future, we must improve our forecasting abilities. Human brains really stink when it comes to forecasting; they evolved to enhance survival under radically different, simpler circumstances. The challenge just keeps mounting as the social- technological environment becomes more complex. Information technology, as we all know, is accelerating the transmission of ideas, practices, and responses. Various human biases and tendencies, such as our imitative behavior, is generating faster and faster cycles, greater instability, and higher levels of uncertainty (at least over short periods of time). And further - "Max More: Now, I'm not sure that forecasting and prediction are always or necessarily "ultimately subjective thought processes." Forecasting methods can be tested. Scott Armstrong has done amazing work in this area. The book he produced in collaboration with many others, The Principles of Forecasting should be in the library of neophiles of every stripe. As Armstrong and others have demonstrated, some forecasting methods are more reliable than others, or work better in particular kinds of situations. Scott especially likes role-playing, and has shown that it routinely beats out other methods such as expert opinions. "Max More: We neophiles now have a large toolkit of forecasting and decision-making methods available to us. We need to be aware of the options, and learn how to choose the right tool for the job, then use that tool carefully. I've written quite a bit about this, most recently summarizing a major chunk of the challenge in "Debugging Executive Decision Making." Simply finding forecasting methods that reduce subjectivity in judgment is easy. There are plenty of them: Scenario planning, role playing, agent-based modeling, idea futures markets, prospective hindsight, Delphi Survey, peripheral sensing and scanning, reference-class forecasting, sensemaking software, even the emerging fields of euroeconomics and psychomarketing, or the tongue-twisting, Nobel Prize-winning tool of autoregressive conditional heteroskedasticity. Far more challenging is the task of choosing the most effective and fitting method." Full Story (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.life-enhancement.com%2FNeoFiles%2Fdefault.asp%3FID%3D39) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Transhumanist Cooperative Colloquium The TransColloquium is a meeting place for futurist organizations in our community to come together, calendar events, leverage our joint knowledge and capabilities, discuss issues, and exchange ideas concerning our shared transhumanist culture. Since our community has grown over the years, it is time that we have a forum where no one organization dominates, and one which provides a fluid, shared space for our community. The first meeting will be held in the online meeting room from August 22 through 24, 2004. Each meeting will be chaired by a different organization. That organization will set the agenda, accepting suggestions from the Colloquium community. Colloquium Website - (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transcolloquium.org) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John Spencer - Space Architect - "Welcome Aboard" to Space! Space Tourism: Do You Want To Go? "The Space Tourism Quest is the first book published in the United States on the space tourism theme. It was written and designed by one of the worlds leading authorities and pioneers in the growing field of space tourism, space architect, John Spencer. Founder and president of the Space Tourism Society, (STS) www.spacetourismsociety.org "In it he premieres his vision, the "Destiny" orbital super yacht design and master development industry plan for expanding the space tourism movement and creating the long-term space tourism industry. "His plan offers opportunities for non-rocket scientists to participate today, to make a difference, and to have a wonderful time in the process." - We asked John says he would like to participate as a space architect in an Extro Conference Designing the Future in 2005/2006. All go and thumbs-up to a positive and resounding, "Yes I would!" John Spencer has been making a difference ever since he started his first space architecture firm in Hollywood in the late 1970s. Keeping one foot in front of the other and practicing his space walk, he will pioneer what he calls "the design frontier." John sees us (transhumans) in a highly positive light with "limitless opportunities to improve our species in a conscious and meaningful way." In doing so, he says that we need to find the "Simplest solutions and do that again and again until it all looks so obviously simple that everyone will say 'Anyone could design that, and they will never know what you went through, how much [God] went through before developing his hydrogen atoms and blades of grass and eggs.'" Buckminster Fuller, April 18, 1974 Full Story (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fexec%2Fobidos%2Ftg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F1894959086%2Fqid%3D1089829613%2Fsr%3D1-13%2Fref%3Dsr_1_13%2F002-0090227-5260007%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Register for TransVision 2004! The World Transhumanist Association in cooperation with the McLuhan Program in Culture and Technology and Transhumanist Arts & Culture Presents TransVision 2004 Art and Life in the Posthuman Era August 5 to 8, 2004 University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Register Now! - and see who will be there! Full Story (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanism.org%2Ftv%2F2004%2Fpresenters.shtml) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quick Links... * About Extropy Institute (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org) * Join Extropy Institute (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Fmembership.htm) * Extropy-Chat e-mail List (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.extropy.org%2Femaillists.htm) * Submit Your Digital Arts to Transhumanist Arts & Culture

for TransVision 2004 (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=oi5wn8n6.0.0.yb4rxun6.0&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transhumanist.biz) Join our mailing list! http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oi&m=1011086851128&id=preview.1011086851128 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email: info at extropy.org phone: 512 263-2749 web: http://www.extropy.org Forward email http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1011086851128&ea=natasha at natasha.cc&a=1011311409422&id=preview This email was sent to natasha at natasha.cc, by info at extropy.org Update Profile/Email Address http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=oo&m=1011086851128&ea=natasha at natasha.cc&t=1011311409422&id=preview.1011086851128 Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(TM) http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/d.jsp?p=un&m=1011086851128&ea=natasha at natasha.cc&t=1011311409422&id=preview.1011086851128 Privacy Policy: http://ccprod.roving.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp Powered by Constant Contact(R) www.constantcontact.com Extropy Institute | 10709 Pointe View Drive | Austin | TX | 78738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jul 15 16:29:01 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040715162901.28478.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > Are you still reading down here? Are we getting > conditioned for hit-and-run information gathering > from the internet? How many of you read tomes such > as Asimov's Foundation novels in your missspent > youth? *raises hand* > Could you do it today? Do you read long books > today? It would be difficult to find the time to do so, true. > When did you stop? About the time I left college and started working for a living. For a time, I thought that was the major difference between the "adult" and "child" worlds - the time pressures resulting from having a major chunk of one's day dedicated to work, and the logical consequences of that on many aspects of day to day life - but now I'm not so sure. > About the time you took up the > internet? Or video games? I've been doing both since I was 10, maybe younger (depending on one's definition). Then again, I was raised in a family of early adopters. At that age, I had time for longer works, but now... I've also written fiction - some short stories, some long - for a while. For several years now, it has been difficult to find the time to write longer works; I tend to write short stories as inspiration strikes, and some of my readers have commented they tend not to have time to read longer things anyway. (By means of comparison: the longest single story I have written to date comes to 503 kilobytes of pure ASCII text, over 17 chapters and an author's note. Some have told me that, if commercially published, it would easily meet the Hugo definition of a novel, at well over 80,000 words. It took about 3 years to write, from first typing of chapter 1 to posting the final version of the final chapter and the note. This was several years ago; by contrast, the story I've most recently written measures but 26.4 KB/about 4,700 words, again in ASCII, taking less than half a day to write the first version and the same time to later revise. This is typical of my works over the past few years.) > Perhaps society's change rate will saturate or reach > some kind of equilibrium because we will > overstimulate > our minds beyond our ability to maintain focus. Or perhaps we've simply gotten better at compressing information, and *that* is one of the reasons we're developing things so fast today. If it takes you a few days to learn a complex topic, where previously the fastest option was a college course that took months, then it becomes more feasable to incorporate said complex topic into a short development cycle - so a lot more people can practice said complex topic. Which means that new discoveries can be incorporated into the next wave of new things faster - including, say, new discoveries about how to further compress information and accelerate learning, or at least how to package new discoveries in such a way that others can uptake them faster. Which feeds back on itself. Various forms of cyborgization - uploading at the extreme, but even these days, offloading some thought processes to computers (especially wearables, or at least PDAs or others that are almost always available) - are either already employed or being seen as one path to further this trend. From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 16:37:17 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gene's query re newsletter Message-ID: <8650-220047415163717412@M2W090.mail2web.com> Hi Gene - The software program template that the Exponent newsletter has been using for the past year was updated in the late spring to provide easy text readability. However, we have been using the same older template since last winter, and the new software configuration was not inserted into this template I transferred data from the older template to the newer template after reading your message and sent it to the list. This should read better for you. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From emerson at singinst.org Thu Jul 15 23:13:45 2004 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:13:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity Institute Announces "3 Laws Unsafe" Campaign Message-ID: <200407152314.i6FNE2W29625@tick.javien.com> SIAI RELEASES WEBSITE ON AI ETHICS COINCIDING WITH "I, ROBOT" FILM ATLANTA, GA - In anticipation of 20th Century Fox's July 16th release of I, Robot, the Singularity Institute announces "3 Laws Unsafe" (http://www.asimovlaws.com). "3 Laws Unsafe" explores the problems presented by Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, the principles intended for ensuring that robots help, but never harm, humans. The Three Laws are widely known and are often taken seriously as reasonable solutions for guiding future AI. But are they truly reasonable? "3 Laws Unsafe" addresses this question. Tyler Emerson, Executive Director of the Singularity Institute: "The release of I, Robot is a wonderful chance to engage more people about the perils and promise of strong AI research. The constraints portrayed in I, Robot appear extremely dangerous and excessively lacking as an approach to moral AI. The Singularity Institute's detailed approach, by contrast, utilizes advanced technical research for creating a mind that is humane in nature." "3 Laws Unsafe" will include articles by several authors, weekly poll questions, a blog for announcements and commentary related to I, Robot and the Three Laws, a free newsletter subscription, and a reading list with books on relevant topics such as the future of AI, accelerating change, cognitive science and nanotechnology. The Singularity Institute's Advocacy Director, Michael Anissimov: "It is essential that more considerate thinkers get involved in dialogues of AI ethics and strategy. Although AI as a discipline has a dubious history of false starts, the accelerating growth of computing power and brain science knowledge will very likely result in its creation at some point. In the past few years, technologists such as Ray Kurzweil and Bill Joy have been informing the public about this critical issue; but much more awareness is now needed." The Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence (SIAI) was founded in 2000 for the pursuit of ethically enhanced intelligence by creating humane AI. SIAI believes the ethical and significant enhancement of intelligence will help solve contemporary problems, such as disease and illness, poverty and hunger, more readily than other philanthropic causes. SIAI is a tax-exempt non-profit organization with branches in Canada and the United States. For more information, please visit http://www.singinst.org. From emerson at singinst.org Fri Jul 16 00:38:57 2004 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:38:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "3 Laws Unsafe" Flyer for "I, Robot" Moviegoers Message-ID: <200407160039.i6G0dFW03743@tick.javien.com> Hi everyone, If you are seeing "I, Robot" this weekend, we hope you will print and hand out - in abundance! - our "3 Laws Unsafe" flyer. With hundreds handing out the flyer, the awareness of the future and ethics of AI should increase greatly. Sincerest thanks! http://www.asimovlaws.com/flyer.pdf -- Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute http://www.singinst.org/ Suite 106 PMB #12 4290 Bells Ferry Road Kennesaw, GA 30144 emerson at singinst.org From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 16 02:24:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "3 Laws Unsafe" Flyer for "I, Robot" Moviegoers In-Reply-To: <200407160039.i6G0dFW03743@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20040716022439.17531.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tyler Emerson wrote: > If you are seeing "I, Robot" this weekend, we hope > you will > print and hand out - in abundance! - our "3 Laws > Unsafe" flyer. > With hundreds handing out the flyer, the awareness > of the future > and ethics of AI should increase greatly. Sincerest > thanks! > > http://www.asimovlaws.com/flyer.pdf I wonder if it's too late to do a cross-promotion deal with the distributors to hand this out with the movie, or at least get it into Will Smith's hands so he can maybe bring it up in the interviews. Probably. Too bad. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 05:43:01 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:43:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <20040715162901.28478.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c46af7$c1bb4b00$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium > > --- Spike wrote: > > Perhaps society's change rate will saturate or reach > > some kind of equilibrium because we will > > overstimulate our minds beyond our ability to maintain focus. > > Or perhaps we've simply gotten better at compressing > information, and *that* is one of the reasons we're > developing things so fast today... Something in your comment made me think of one skill we have all developed in the past 10 years: we have gotten damn good at recognizing spam. We are waaay fast at that, we can do it in a second. Thats the good news. The bad news is... I expect it will soon become muuuch harder to recognize spam, and even an exceedingly good spam filter could be rendered helpless. The spammers may soon write a script which will go thru the archives of chat groups, bite out a chunk of text, paste it into a fake message, then append their advertisement onto the end, then send the message to all those on the chat group. Most of the text would be relevant to the interests of the receiver. We may spend a lot of time reading the post before we realize we have been had, spammed. Unless we think of an effective counterattack, this type of spam could eventually render chat groups useless. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 05:50:37 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:50:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <04Jul15.085051-0400_edt.312489-20088+3741@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <000b01c46af8$d4d10bc0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium > > > Spike writes: > > > A small voice in the back of my mind is telling me > > human toolmaking only goes back ~100k yrs. > > I knew I wasn't the only one hearing those voices! > > Harvey Newstrom... Except this one was lying, and I had the right answer the first time. I googled, found Homo habilis was the first toolmaking species, they do go back almost 2 million years, and they made stone tools the same way for half a million years. Lesson Harvey: we shouldnt listen to the voices. They dont google. spike From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 16 05:59:58 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <000a01c46af7$c1bb4b00$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040716055958.26451.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > Something in your comment made me think of one skill > we have all developed in the past 10 years: we have > gotten damn good at recognizing spam. We are waaay > fast at that, we can do it in a second. Hmm. You know, you're right...and that could apply to part of why we're faster today: we quickly recognize junk and move past it, even in face to face communications. > The spammers may soon write a script > which > will go thru the archives of chat groups, bite out a > chunk of text, paste it into a fake message, then > append > their advertisement onto the end, then send the > message > to all those on the chat group. Which chunk we would have seen before, and recognize as being taken out of context unless the chunk started at some logical point. (I doubt spammers would be smart enough to, say, program their scripts to so much as recognize the start of a sentence in the near future. Merely starting on whitespace, so as to start on a whole word rather than in the middle of one, would be about their limit.) BTW...you meant this as in something that looks like a response to the message, right? (Else we would have yet more ways to recognize and filter it.) The response part would have to be original, and likely make little sense given current trends. But I think the biggest safety factor is that message lists with archives aren't really spammers' targets. They target individuals. Finding message archives on the Web is work, and spamming is all about avoiding honest work. (Of course, some chat groups already make their archives for list members only, with the subscription software sending out a password to subscribers which they can use at a Web site to access the archives. Which further degrades the utility of this attack to spammers.) From dfowler282004 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 07:51:16 2004 From: dfowler282004 at yahoo.com (devon fowler) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] life extension Message-ID: <20040716075116.76468.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> I know this subject has been kicked around plenty of times before, but how do we introduce the prospect of radical life extension to the lay public? Ray Kurzweil did an interview on NPR and very breifly introduced the idea of radical life extension, but I think more needs to be done to get the general public to start demanding potential treatments on their own, supply demand. If these technologies are not properly introduced to the masses, I fear the price tag will be too high for those of us who most want it. Any thoughts on how extropy or imminst can make life extension a more concrete idea in people's minds? Devon Fowler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Fri Jul 16 10:14:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Abu Ghraib - the news gets even worse Message-ID: There's quite a lot of new information emerging from the woodwork regarding Abu Ghraib. Too much to post here, but I suggest to go to the Boing Boing site, to take a look at all of the posts andlinks: http://www.boingboing.net/ Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "That would be a good idea." -- Gandhi [when asked what he thought of western civilisation] From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 10:41:00 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:41:00 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Abu Ghraib - the news gets even worse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c5204071603414c7c94c0@mail.gmail.com> If true, this is really, really disgusting. I hope it is not true. On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:08 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > There's quite a lot of new information emerging from the woodwork > regarding Abu Ghraib. Too much to post here, but I suggest to > go to the Boing Boing site, to take a look at all of the posts > andlinks: > > http://www.boingboing.net/ > > Amara From neptune at superlink.net Fri Jul 16 10:58:43 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:58:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] life extension References: <20040716075116.76468.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004901c46b23$dd5b6bc0$e1893cd1@neptune> On Friday, July 16, 2004 3:51 AM devon fowler dfowler282004 at yahoo.com wrote: > I know this subject has been kicked around > plenty of times before, but how do we > introduce the prospect of radical life > extension to the lay public? Ray Kurzweil > did an interview on NPR and very breifly > introduced the idea of radical life extension, > but I think more needs to be done to get the > general public to start demanding potential > treatments on their own, supply demand. If > these technologies are not properly > introduced to the masses, I fear the price > tag will be too high for those of us who most > want it. Any thoughts on how extropy or > imminst can make life extension a more > concrete idea in people's minds? Well, life extension in its less radical forms is already out there and there's a huge market for chemical life extension -- supplements, hormone treatments, and the like. Might not the "natural" audience for more radical life extension pitch be there? Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html From amara at amara.com Fri Jul 16 14:35:58 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:35:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seeking an English language publisher for _Volcanoes of Light_ book Message-ID: Dear Transhumanists: I am interested in finding an English language book publisher for a photography book about Sicilian volcanoes. The book contains about 175 photographs, grouped in ~60 themes, with a paragraph written for each theme. The themes show the many 'faces' of the volcanoes of south Italy, with most of the photographs having been taken at a close range. Some themes give a small volocanology lesson, other themes describe the culture living around the volcanoes, yet other themes present celestial views on comets and the zodiacal light. The first version is written in Italian, and will be printed sometime, we hope, before the next big Etna eruption.... :-). The photographer keeps the rights to his photographs, but the Italian publisher has 3000 dpi scans of the original slides, which would be useful to another publisher, if the other publisher makes an arrangement with him. Even though I am biased about this book (knowing well the photographs and the photographer, and having written the words), I doubt that National Geographic can beat the clarity, strength, beauty, and emotional impact of these photographs. I prepared a sample of some pages from the book, so you can see for yourself. ('flexible' formatting currently) http://www.amara.com/VulcanidiLuce/VulcanidiLuce_sample.pdf (2.3 Mb) If you have ideas, or better yet, know of a publisher personally, who would be interested in such a book, then please introduce us and pass this pdf file on to him/her. (contact me at amara.graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it) Thank you, Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "There's only one thing more beautiful than a beautiful dream, and that's a beautiful reality." --Ashleigh Brilliant From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Fri Jul 16 19:31:51 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:31:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040716202947.02017c48@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> >Message: 5 >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:50:37 -0700 >From: "Spike" >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Message-ID: <000b01c46af8$d4d10bc0$6401a8c0 at SHELLY> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium > > > > > > Spike writes: > > > > > A small voice in the back of my mind is telling me > > > human toolmaking only goes back ~100k yrs. > > > > I knew I wasn't the only one hearing those voices! > > > > Harvey Newstrom... > > >Except this one was lying, and I had the right answer >the first time. I googled, found Homo habilis was the >first toolmaking species, they do go back almost >2 million years, and they made stone tools the same way >for half a million years. Lesson Harvey: we shouldnt >listen to the voices. They dont google. > > >spike When they eventually do, will that mean you are borg? ("You" as in plural, of course?) You're only crazy when the voices start laughing at you. James... From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jul 16 20:01:31 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:01:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sean Williams and extropian sf Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040716145836.01c55060@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Locus's June issue featured an interview with Sean Williams: His and Dix's ECHOES OF EARTH trilogy deals explicitly with the consequences of a technological Spike. Damien Broderick From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 17 18:56:12 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:56:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2004, at 11:26 AM, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > Amara Graps wrote: >> This particular news was on the Italian radio this morning. The >> reaction from my immediate environment is that of sadness, words of >> 'looks like a dictatorship' and so on. The people around me also asked >> questions about what is the true lifetime of a democracy, because it >> looks like an incredibly fragile thing now, with the US has having had >> demonstrated the longest democratic life. > > > Its not that bad, and people are over-reacting. The entire range of > contingencies is being investigated -- a legitimate exercise for the > government -- and the media is using it whip up some FUD. After the events of the last election and watching the current administration for the last four years, I very much wish I could believe that there is nothing to worry about. But I cannot. I believe that this administration is quite capable of stealing an election and if it looks like they cannot do so or win legitimately, postponing an election. I would love to believe that there is no basis for such worry. But I do not believe it. I recommend watching very carefully and certainly NOT giving the government the benefit of doubt. They have shown repeatedly that they do not deserve it. - s From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 17 19:06:00 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:06:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57811ABA-D824-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Bath? Who the heck has the time to take a bath? :-) On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:21 AM, Brian Lee wrote: > Just came across this article about nanometer thick waterproofing: > http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3198690 > > Could be that our bathable laptops and pdas are closer than we thought. > > BAL > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 17 19:39:28 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:39:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <0422844F-D829-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Jul 14, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Acy James Stapp wrote: > I have had a few thoughts on extropianism as a political > movement. > > > Candidates: > Most third-party candidates are hopeless. In order to compete > politically our candidates need to be professional politicians. > They need the affect, the appearance, and the attitude to be > elected. In short, they need to be 'electable'. I hope I am not alone in wanting first and foremost a candidate that stand on and for well articulated principles. I could care less if the person looks/acts/talks like a "professional politician" as most of these are utterly adverse to principles. > > Issues: > Most people are one-issue voters. If there are no advertised > and promoted issues that deeply affect a particular individual > they will either not vote or vote along party lines. However, > most people use issues to decide whom not to vote for, in my > experience. We need to decide which issues are most salient for > extropian values and then be as centrist as possible on all > other issues. I know, you all have your pet issues that you > just have to espouse but if these aren't key planks you need > to suck it up, take one for the party, and present a united, > centrist face to the electorate. > Being "centrist" is extreme times with our future on the line is worse than worthless. Cherry-picking "issues" while really standing for nothing in hopes of manipulating the machine to get into office is what most politicians do today. We have seen what it brings us. Don't even bother to start a party if you are only out to play the same tired game. > Accepting Change: > Many people have an ego attachment to their political party and > political beliefs and will not change unless their social > situation changes radically or they are gently and invisibly > guided to change. > Since we are in a period of radical change that should be a no-brainer. The trick is in how to guide and nurture change toward the beneficial and to show the people in words and deliverables how the changes are to their happy benefit. > Social Stratification: > People will vote for the party that improves their situation > the most. This results in party boundaries along social class > lines. We need to convince people of all socioeconomic back- > grounds that extropianism will improve their life and their > situation mroe than any of the other parties. > Rational or irrational "improvement"? The major parties are powerful because they more or less have goodies for sale. But this is not exactly a rational improvement. > > > Lobbying, bribes, and graft: > We have to convince big business to give us money. Everyone > knows it is happening and it's an integral part of the modern > political process. Pretending it doesn't exist is stupid, and > ideological objections to it will ensure that we never achieve > high office. Pragmatism is the way to go. > In short you will be owned by everyone and everything other than the principles that supposedly make you different and worth considering. SIGH. > Disentrenchment: > We need to use our efforts not only to promote the extropian > party, but the ideals of a true multi-party system. Easing > ballot access is a big one. Our best bet may be to take over > an existing political party and let the entrenchment of the > two-party system work in our favor. > > More maneuvering without really bothering to define and offer a real difference? I realize you said these are just thoughts off the top of your head but this is tired and singularly uninspiring, even to the choir. -s From samantha at objectent.com Sat Jul 17 19:43:38 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:43:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: the "cancel the election" media ploy In-Reply-To: <40F59E64.4040200@mylinuxisp.com> References: <200407141800.i6EI0DW14148@tick.javien.com> <40F59E64.4040200@mylinuxisp.com> Message-ID: <992F55DE-D829-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Jul 14, 2004, at 1:58 PM, Randy Smith wrote: > > > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:18:49 -0700 >> From: Samantha Atkins >> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections >> To: ExI chat list >> Message-ID: <948b11e040714001862cad178 at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >> >> I don't see why we our society needs to answer this hypothetical >> situation before the fact. Before the fact planning how to shutdown >> the election and for how many reasons makes people pretty darn >> nervous. If something that extreme happens we will have to deal with >> it vis a vis the election when it happens. Too much planning in >> terms of extremely horrendous but very small possibilities results in >> paranoia and temptation to invoke emergency powers all ready to go. >> >> I certainly don't trust an incumbent to decide whether to hold the >> election that could remove him. >> >> > > By generating so much controversy among the media, Bushco has managed > to penetrate that dense bone barrier around Joe Sixpack's cranium, and > with that penetration, bushco has managed to get into their heads a > little bit of the idea that the USA is still under seige by those bad > guys who caused so much ruckus in NY a few years ago--911. Joe Sixpack > usually doesn't read the whole news story--he just reads the > headlines, or he hears a blurb about it on an MSNBC politics show when > he is flippnig through the channels on his way from ESPN1 to ESPN2. > > Now that Bushco has done that, they can invoke the primal feelings of > fear, hate, tribal loyalty, etc., associated with 911--and with > Bush's role in the aftermath of 911. It was those same feelings that > led to bush's 90% favorable rating in opinion polls after 911. If he > can tap into those feelings, he can win. > > The media and pundits know this, I would reckon. I notice that they > are not talking about that, though.... > > So this really has nothing to do with actually cancelling the > election. It is just media manipulation. Relax.... > I agree with much of what you said as being one dimension of what this trial balloon accomplished. But I do not believe that is all of what it is for or even the main dimension. This country is much too dangerous a state to relax. I strongly recommend continuing and increased vigilance. -s From extropy at unreasonable.com Sat Jul 17 20:09:36 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:09:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040717151418.03c52e58@unreasonable.com> Samantha wrote: >After the events of the last election and watching the current >administration for the last four years, I very much wish I could believe >that there is nothing to worry about. But I cannot. I believe that this >administration is quite capable of stealing an election and if it looks >like they cannot do so or win legitimately, postponing an election. I >would love to believe that there is no basis for such worry. But I do >not believe it. I recommend watching very carefully and certainly NOT >giving the government the benefit of doubt. They have shown repeatedly >that they do not deserve it. Would Bush steal an election? I don't know, but Kennedy did. And 14 years later, his reviled (not without justification) opponent peaceably resigned. The system is more resilient than we give it credit. I don't know of any administration in US history that deserved the benefit of the doubt. But the other side to Amara's "Bush 'War on Terrorism fear-amplification machine'" is the drumbeat of conspiratorial accusations against it, often far-fetched or contradictory. I suppose that, with a possible exception for a true external threat, liberty is best-served by the legislature and executive in opposition to each other. At least until we can elect Virginia Postrel or Perry Metzger, say. Are we better today with D/R (Clinton/Gingrich) or R/D (Reagan/Tip O'Neill) ? -- David Lubkin. From riel at surriel.com Sat Jul 17 20:20:52 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > Kerry is an empty suit who spends most of his time fighting his own > doppelganger. He is an absolutely lousy candidate and won't attract > votes from much more than the party-bots. Not just the party-bots, though. There are quite a few concerned parents around, who know that if they don't vote Bush out of office, their kids could be drafted into the army. Rumor has it the target date for the reinstated draft would be june or july next year. IF Bush wins, that is. Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Sat Jul 17 20:54:42 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00f001c46a31$fe74dd70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Spike wrote: > Nearly all sci-fi stories postulate advanced societies > that did not experience runaway AI and appear to be > at least stable. Except for some of the most interesting sci-fi stories, which focus on a disruption of such an equilibrium ;) Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Sat Jul 17 21:03:49 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <20040715162901.28478.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040715162901.28478.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Or perhaps we've simply gotten better at compressing > information, and *that* is one of the reasons we're > developing things so fast today. If it takes you a > few days to learn a complex topic, where previously > the fastest option was a college course that took > months, then it becomes more feasable to incorporate > said complex topic into a short development cycle Funny, I tend to think the opposite is true. A century ago, somebody could go to university and learn ALL of physics, and in the 1960's it must have been possible for a single person to learn ALL of computer science. In contrast, I suspect there's nobody who knows everything of either field today... Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sat Jul 17 21:21:53 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:21:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <5335BCF0-D837-11D8-8F3D-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Jul 17, 2004, at 1:20 PM, Rik van Riel wrote: > Not just the party-bots, though. There are quite a few > concerned parents around, who know that if they don't > vote Bush out of office, their kids could be drafted > into the army. > > Rumor has it the target date for the reinstated draft > would be june or july next year. IF Bush wins, that is. This is nonsense, and the only people who have floated the idea are the Democrats. It is nothing more than a ploy to spread FUD pre-election. The Department of Defense is adamantly against the idea, as conscription troops are markedly inferior to professional forces and degrade the overall force structure. In effect, the overall capability of the military would not increase in any significant sense even if you doubled the number of soldiers through conscription. Given no significant benefit at the cost of greatly increased logistical footprint, the military will take quality over quantity every time. Instead, the DoD is doing something that it should have done a long time ago: re-deploy the few hundred thousand soldiers still in Cold War deployments to useful theaters, much to the whining of Europe and Asia. Military conscription won't happen, nor does it need to happen. The reason political parties (the Democrats in this case) promote ideas like this is precisely so that people like you will think that it is real possibility and pin the notion on whoever the current administration is. Manipulation of the masses, as usual. Parents who are worried about this need to stop drinking so much conspiracy Koolaid. It never fails. Every single election is preceded with a good portion of the population descending into an irrational state of delusional paranoia about the Other Guy, which the politicians feed to their own ends. And people wonder why I have such a low opinion of the species. j. andrew rogers From riel at surriel.com Sat Jul 17 21:48:27 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: <5335BCF0-D837-11D8-8F3D-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <1089743160.30838@whirlwind.he.net> <5335BCF0-D837-11D8-8F3D-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > This is nonsense, and the only people who have floated the idea are the > Democrats. It is nothing more than a ploy to spread FUD pre-election. I'm glad to hear it's nonsense. One detail is different, though - the rumor has reached me through ex-army people, from reasonably high up in the hierarchy... Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Jul 17 21:48:32 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:48:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Jim Update #2 References: <003101c469a4$fa425260$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <006f01c46c47$d0eb5ce0$55aa1218@Nano> Hello everyone, no need to reply to this message, this is an update of the last few days since Tuesday's update. While Jim says he is feeling weaker every day (which is a normal process of the chemo taking effect), I am happy to report his other side effects have definitely subdued since they took the line out. He has had no more stomach cramps and has been sleeping through the nights! Today Jim started the second round of four days of the steroid. I think since we have experienced the steriod side effects during his first four day round, we are better prepared to prevent and treat them this time. Today Jim looked tired when he awoke, but since it's pretty hot outside, he decided to take a shower and put on some shorts. I think that was the right thing to do, as he looks a whole lot better now. I'm so glad JIm is sleeping and his tummy isn't troubling him anymore, this is good news! Warm regards, Gina` Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 21:51:27 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:51:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20040716202947.02017c48@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> Message-ID: <00be01c46c48$3980bd40$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > J Corbally >>spike: > ..Lesson Harvey: we shouldnt > >listen to the voices. They dont google. > spike > > > You're only crazy when the voices start laughing at you. > > > James... Uh oh. {8^D Actually it would be better if they did laugh at me. Then at least I could have fun trying to entertain them. {8^D spike From extropy at unreasonable.com Sat Jul 17 23:24:21 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:24:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <0422844F-D829-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F1C1@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040717184257.03db4268@unreasonable.com> I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that organized extropians could actually accomplish anything through the political avenues suggested so far in this thread. On the other hand, looking at the respectability and successes of the Cato Institute, I am hopeful about the ability of a focused group to influence from the sidelines through a speaker's bureau, symposia, draft legislation, amicus briefs, legislative analysis, op-ed pieces, etc. However, we have always been a community where wild ideas could be explored, where very little was off-limit. Nearly all of us have voiced our support for one or more propositions that would be considered kooky, dangerous, or abhorrent by the rest of society. How do we preserve our free-wheeling ways (and strengthen them, for I feel they've suffered of late) while increasing our effectiveness in the public arena? -- David Lubkin. From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 14:04:38 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:04:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool maths tool Message-ID: What is QuickMath? QuickMath is an automated service for answering common math problems over the internet. Think of it as an online calculator that solves equations and does all sorts of algebra and calculus problems - instantly and automatically! When you submit a question to QuickMath, it is processed by Mathematica, the largest and most powerful computer algebra package available today. The answer is then sent back to you and displayed right there on your browser, usually within a couple of seconds. Best of all, QuickMath is 100% free! ------------ Free Mathematica for the masses! I don't want to see anymore misplaced decimal points now. All speculative calculations are now expected to be within at least 10^3 of the correct answer. :) BillK From evmick at earthlink.net Sun Jul 18 16:43:01 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:43:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] An Open Letter to the Scientific Community. In-Reply-To: <40EB48C8.2040709@optusnet.com.au> References: <40E83009.9000808@earthlink.net> <40EB48C8.2040709@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <40FAA895.7080703@earthlink.net> In response to a previous post of mine there were the replies. > > You probably should have heard of this one. > He also had some rather unconventional theories about so-called > "fossil fuels". (He claimed, and presented a fair bit of evidence, > that petroleum deposits were actually primordial rather than fossil.) > He also died recently - 22 June 2004. > > And.... Halton Arp is a famous astronomer, who worked a lot on non-cosmological redshift theories, especially on quasar, that would probably invalidate the big bang theory. His articles has been largely ignored, but many of his questions have never been answered, and if you read his articles and books he makes the case quite compelling. Alfio _ Hmmmmmmmmm. Well my post was rather tounge in cheek. (very hard to talk that way)..... What I'm getting at is that I've run across a LOT of "out of the main stream" information that seems to me to be very plausible. I visit James P. Hogan's website pretty regularly and he has comments and indicators to much of what I'm referring to. James P Hogan Homepage I find it fascinating. I also find it rather alarming the way people such as Arp are treated whenever they find something or suggest something which is "outside the pale". Supposedly science is the search for new knowledge right? Who was it that said "It's not what you don't know that hurts you.....It's what you do know that AINT SO.....that hurts you"....I forget the name right now....Probably Shake Spear or one of them guys. So how come guys who come up with interesting ideas...(like plate techtonics....the solar centric version of astronomy....the germ theory of biology...etc. ) get pilloried.? hmmmmmm...some of them ideas turned out to be right i think.....naw...can't be.... Everyone knows the earth is the center of the universe......the big bang guys say so.....after all....the "finger of the gods" point right AT the earth. At any rate. I remember Occam's Law. And dark matter, dark energy, variable expansion, multi-flavored nutrino's (etc. etc.) seem to be grasping at straws. But what I'm REALLY interested in is boron-hydrogen fusion....via Focus Fusion. Focus Fusion Society However...it appears to clash with the entrenched interests. Tokamak rules right? EvMick At a roadside park in Iowa (I love wireless internet) on the road again....holiday over. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 03:35:46 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <46380-220047314161917174@M2W090.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040719033546.20834.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > From: Harvey Newstrom > > Adrian Tymes writes: > > > Would you believe the Extropians were, in at least one > > widely-consumed piece of science fiction, a major > > political party? (At least, one of the two major > > parties was called the Extropians, and its beliefs > > were not that different from ExI's official > > philosophy.) > > >Ha. How quickly they forget. The Extropians List used to be full > of > >"extropians" sightings in science fiction and literature. Searching > >Amazon > >for the word extropian finds over a dozen books referencing > "extropians". > >Many are science fiction and many are science fact. > > Also, there are a few fictional characters based on "extropians." And alluded groups, i.e. Neal Stephenson's characters in Cryptonomicon who were cryonic-bracelet wearing "Eutropians". I'm waiting to see a 19th century horror novel with extropic alien crypto-dirt created phantasms.... with de-ghosting done by Theilhard des Chardins... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:04:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity Institute Announces "3 Laws Unsafe" Campaign In-Reply-To: <200407152314.i6FNE2W29625@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20040719040450.25223.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tyler Emerson wrote: > SIAI RELEASES WEBSITE ON AI ETHICS COINCIDING WITH "I, ROBOT" FILM Excellent, though, Tyler, my article has a few paragraph formatting issues, primarily a two line break in a sentence.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:17:49 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719041749.91479.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rik van Riel wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > > Kerry is an empty suit who spends most of his time fighting his own > > doppelganger. He is an absolutely lousy candidate and won't > attract > > votes from much more than the party-bots. > > Not just the party-bots, though. There are quite a few > concerned parents around, who know that if they don't > vote Bush out of office, their kids could be drafted > into the army. > > Rumor has it the target date for the reinstated draft > would be june or july next year. IF Bush wins, that is. Another bogus claim put out by Democrats. The DoD just announced today, in fact, the "Blue to Green" program I predicted several months ago. Since the only service with difficulty meeting recruitment goals is the Army, with the other services RIFFing members out, the DoD is now encouraging USAF, Navy, and Marines who want to re-up but aren't needed to instead re-enlist with the Army, getting rank, pay, and bonus incentives to do so. The number expected to transfer to green will more than fill recruitment goals. The draft is only being talked about by Democrats. The Draft bill in congress is sponsored solely by a dozen liberal Democrats, as a weak attempt to scare college and high school kids and their parents into voting against the war. The anti-war movement is vastly depressed at the total lack of interest on the part of most kids toward the war. Democrats are trying to do a two pronged attack with this: scare up the urban Dem voters who enlist at below average rates, and argue in heartland states that the volunteer military is disproportionately represented by rural kids who are dying at higher rates in Iraq than city kids. It's pretty cynical of them, since it was the Dems who got rid of the draft in the first place. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:27:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: US talks of suspending elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719042726.43217.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rik van Riel wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > > This is nonsense, and the only people who have floated the idea are > the > > Democrats. It is nothing more than a ploy to spread FUD > pre-election. > > I'm glad to hear it's nonsense. One detail is different, > though - the rumor has reached me through ex-army people, > from reasonably high up in the hierarchy... One thing to be aware of: the military is not entirely without politics. Most of the best commands go to officers who are graduates of the service academies, rather than ROTC or OTS. Career officers tend to develop friendships with career politicians who appointed them to their academy in the first place, even though most politicians have appointees officially selected by 'non-partisan' committees of constituents. This is one of the crossover points of the military industrial complex. Defense conglomerates own congressmen and Senators via campaign contributions, while the politicians own the careers of military officers who decide what weapons systems to buy. I'd put good money on a bet that many of the high ranking Army people your story originates from were generally appointed by liberal democrats. It's also a pretty good bet that those people are not in real decision making positions on this issue... of course, if they are "ex-Army" people, they have no decision in the process at all... just RIFFed-out troopers spewing barracks scuttlebutt with a likely accuracy of zero. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:54:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [SK] Re: Politics: US talks of suspending In-Reply-To: <40F5A703.57CF4BA5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20040719045417.94632.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > > > That would free you. The Neutrality Act of 1940 guarantees it, if > you > > rebel against the corporate state, you lose your 14th amendment US > > citizenship and regain your full State Citizenship. For those > > interested in researching it, try reading the post-Civil War > > Expatriation Act, then the Neutrality Act. Acts of rebellion and/or > > secession nullify your US citizenship. > > > > Mine is nullified. My little flag presentation to Killington in > March > > did the trick. I'm now a NH National. > > Have you stopped paying federal income taxes? Commenting on that would be a fifth amendment issue... > > > > All I ever wanted out of life was to do biomedical > > > research to help people live longer, healthier, and > > > happier lives but the ghosts of Thomas Jefferson and > > > every other patriot who has ever sacrificed money, > > > time, or their life's blood on the altar of freedom > > > would not let me sleep at night if I allowed such an > > > overt perversion of everything America stands for to > > > occur. Tread on me at your peril, Mr. Bush. > > > > Ah, well, engage in interstate commerce at your own peril. There > > lies the power of US tyranny. > > Unfortunately, the definition of "commerce" in the commerce clause > has > been extended far beyond the original meaning, even including actions > that are neither trade nor cross state lines. (One recent reversal > is > Raich v. Ashcroft, in which the above-cited Randy Barnett was one of > the attorneys for the plaintiff--at the moment, in the 9th Circuit, > the > cultivation of cannabis for personal medical use is legal, and the > federal > government is enjoined from prosecutions. One of the plaintiff's > arguments which was upheld by the 9th Circuit is that the feds have > no > power to regulate since there is no interstate commerce involved.) There have been several other notable retrenchments. US v Lopez, for starters, which killed the 'gun free school zones' law as a non-commerce activity, as well as a case involving a County Waste district filling a pond without US Army Corps of Engineers approval. In that second case, the court ruled that Corps authority over "channels of commerce" required that they be reachable from a waterway that crossed state lines. Landlocked intrastate waterways are now exempt from Corps authority. Still further, in the 9th circuit, a fellow who built a machine gun in his basement by himself was found to be outside ATF authority under NFA of 1934 since he didn't engage in interstate commerce to do so. There are other cases brewing too, so don't give up yet. As for biomedical research, medicine is generally considered a state issue anyways. The fed really only has authority over research that is funded by federal dollars. For example, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, worth about $11 billion, has been funding its own stem cell research as part of its annual $450 million budget, and creating its own stem cell lines independent of government oversight (i.e. exempt from Bush's cell line restrictions). So long as you keep your research budget away from Uncle Sugar, you should be able to do okay. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 14:49:36 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:49:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rise of "Digital People" Message-ID: <256030-220047119144936611@M2W063.mail2web.com> Saw this in the Kurzweil AI Newsletter. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5386726/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Mon Jul 19 17:34:25 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:34:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F2E8@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jul 14, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Acy James Stapp wrote: > >> I have had a few thoughts on extropianism as a political movement. >> >> >> Candidates: >> Most third-party candidates are hopeless. In order to compete >> politically our candidates need to be professional politicians. >> They need the affect, the appearance, and the attitude to be >> elected. In short, they need to be 'electable'. > > I hope I am not alone in wanting first and foremost a candidate that > stand on and for well articulated principles. I could care less if > the person looks/acts/talks like a "professional politician" as most > of these are utterly adverse to principles. You are not alone, but you are atypical. I personally vote for candidates based on their issues; however, the majority of the electorate (the part that matters) is not only unaware of the existence of third-party candidates until they see the name on the ballot, but thinks that the third-party candidates they are aware of are kooks and nutballs. >> experience. We need to decide which issues are most salient for >> extropian values and then be as centrist as possible on all >> other issues. I know, you all have your pet issues that you > > Being "centrist" is extreme times with our future on the line is worse > than worthless. Cherry-picking "issues" while really standing for > nothing in hopes of manipulating the machine to get into office is > what most politicians do today. We have seen what it brings us. > Don't even bother to start a party if you are only out to play the > same tired game. 'Manipulating the machine' is the only way to get into office. Forming a political party indicates an intent to work within the existing political system to effect change conducive to extropian ideals. That's a key word, 'ideals'. Almost all issues can be approached with an extropian slant, but we should focus on our ideals, and have a well-articulated core platform. Campaign on the platform, both to get yourself elected and to legitimise the party and platform. Deal with your pet issues after you are in office. >> Social Stratification: >> People will vote for the party that improves their situation >> the most. This results in party boundaries along social class >> lines. We need to convince people of all socioeconomic back- >> grounds that extropianism will improve their life and their >> situation mroe than any of the other parties. > > Rational or irrational "improvement"? The major parties are powerful > because they more or less have goodies for sale. But this is not > exactly a rational improvement. Improvement in the sense of making their day-to-day life less better. If you can't afford food, it's certainly nice when someone promises you food stamps. If you are unemployed, it sure is nice if the government pays the rent for you. If you are a wealthy investor and make much of your income from capital gains, a reduction or elimination of the capital gains tax will be appealing. Rational or not, selfishness is one reason people choose parties. >> We have to convince big business to give us money. Everyone >> knows it is happening and it's an integral part of the modern >> political process. Pretending it doesn't exist is stupid, and >> ideological objections to it will ensure that we never achieve >> high office. Pragmatism is the way to go. > > In short you will be owned by everyone and everything other than the > principles that supposedly make you different and worth considering. > SIGH. Sad, I know, but necessary. Politics is a dirty business. >> Disentrenchment: >> We need to use our efforts not only to promote the extropian >> party, but the ideals of a true multi-party system. Easing >> ballot access is a big one. Our best bet may be to take over >> an existing political party and let the entrenchment of the >> two-party system work in our favor. > > More maneuvering without really bothering to define and offer a real > difference? I realize you said these are just thoughts off the top > of your head but this is tired and singularly uninspiring, even to the > choir. Tired and uninspiring perhaps, but still needed and necessary for the formation of an effective extropian party. > -s Thanks for the input. I certainly share your disdain for the political system in the US, but we obviously have differences of opinion on how to change it. If you have any suggestions for achieving extropian political power I am excited to hear them. Acy From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 19 17:48:47 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] An Open Letter to the Scientific Community. In-Reply-To: <40FAA895.7080703@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040719174847.20967.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Everitt Mickey wrote: > I remember Occam's Law. And dark matter, dark > energy, variable expansion, multi-flavored nutrino's > (etc. etc.) seem to be grasping at straws. The problem there seems to be a lack of data. We're on Earth, and can observe from there. While some of the observations are really impressive (since a lot of time has been spent on them), even data from a point so close (on galactic terms) as Mars would be useful to compare to. And some of these theories really need measurements from another star. > But what I'm REALLY interested in is boron-hydrogen > fusion....via Focus Fusion. > Focus Fusion Society Aside from its limited availability (He3 is abundant on the Moon, but not on Earth), one could make the same arguments about helium-3-helium-3 fusion. Although, I do have concerns about their determination to use short-time-length processes. Despite their claims, very few large fusion research projects are trying to achieve steady-state plasmas. In fact, the extremely short time scales in which most fusion has occurred in the lab has itself been one of the problems, in that it's generated signficant uncertainties in the data. (A second's worth of readings generates much more data than a microsecond's.) > However...it appears to clash with the entrenched > interests. Tokamak rules right? Big fusion rules. They're not the only small fusion project; other attempts at desktop fusion (even using the same fuels) have gotten similarly small funding. I wonder if, someday, the same thing currently happening with space access might happen with fusion? The economics and technical causes appear to be similar. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 19 18:13:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040717184257.03db4268@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040719181338.32300.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Lubkin wrote: > I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that > organized extropians could > actually accomplish anything through the political > avenues suggested so far > in this thread. I am not so sure, but let's assume that for argument's sake. There are certainly other possibilities... > On the other hand, looking at the respectability and > successes of the Cato > Institute, I am hopeful about the ability of a > focused group to influence > from the sidelines through a speaker's bureau, > symposia, draft legislation, > amicus briefs, legislative analysis, op-ed pieces, > etc. ...definitely including this. If ExI had a chance to draft and submit one piece of legislation for the next (post-election) session of the US Congress to consider, what would it be? (And what's this "if" - surely some of us can find ways to at least get it introduced for debate, no?) > However, we have always been a community where wild > ideas could be > explored, where very little was off-limit. Nearly > all of us have voiced our > support for one or more propositions that would be > considered kooky, > dangerous, or abhorrent by the rest of society. > > How do we preserve our free-wheeling ways (and > strengthen them, for I feel > they've suffered of late) while increasing our > effectiveness in the public > arena? Split the community off from the official statements. This is an email list hosted by ExI for the benefit of its members, but almost nothing said on this list is the official position of ExI. (There are a few things that are, but they are usually labelled as such or otherwise pretty easy to identify as such.) On the other hand, ExI is perfectly capable of making statements - for instance letting the list come up with ideas for legislation, running the result by some lawyers to double-check (or even to officially word it, if necessary), then publishing and endorsing a final draft. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 19 18:17:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719181739.7690.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rik van Riel wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Or perhaps we've simply gotten better at > compressing > > information, and *that* is one of the reasons > we're > > developing things so fast today. If it takes you > a > > few days to learn a complex topic, where > previously > > the fastest option was a college course that took > > months, then it becomes more feasable to > incorporate > > said complex topic into a short development cycle > > Funny, I tend to think the opposite is true. A > century > ago, somebody could go to university and learn ALL > of > physics, and in the 1960's it must have been > possible > for a single person to learn ALL of computer > science. > > In contrast, I suspect there's nobody who knows > everything > of either field today... Because there's so much more to know. Someone could still, if they wanted, try to learn all of computer science that was known in the 1960s, omitting anything discovered or invented in 1970 or later. It wouldn't be at all practical for anyone but a historian, and even then possibly of questionable value, but it could be done. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 19:11:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040717184257.03db4268@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040719191153.52435.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Lubkin wrote: > I think it is extraordinarily unlikely that organized extropians > could actually accomplish anything through the political avenues > suggested so far in this thread. This has already been proven false. Extropians are significantly represented in the FSP, beyond just myself and FSP President Amanda Phillips. Many just aren't members of this list for reasons similar to what I've expressed in the past. What the FSP experience does demonstrate, though, is that Extropians need to work well with others, be individually motivated to take initiative to get done things that need doing (CRN is another notable example of this, and the recent success of Alcor in AZ is another). Even in the FSP, we've found that most of our successes have occured without any management or involvement from FSP leadership. Sitting around disasturbating does not create progress. Pity parties produce piss poor productivity. Last Tuesday I met Governor Benson regarding Killington joining NH, and he is amenable to providing the people of Killington the opportunity to utilize the process to redress their greivances. Killington's draft legislation has been successfully sponsored onto the House calendar due to my own lobbying over a few days with a relative handful of legislators. We are putting other legislation in the pipeline here in NH with FSP members who are already House members. Such individuals are worth their weight in neutronium. Still more people are moving here from elsewhere, years before they are obligated to and before we've reached our 20k membership goals. Still others around the country are forming local chapters to recruit membership and convene meetings for socialization, planning, as well as local activism. These people are pioneering, taking personal responsibility for the success of the project. Such success doesn't happen sitting around complaining about how ineffective ExI is. We each have a personal responsibility to be the change we wish to see in the world. If the change you wish to see isn't being created by others, this only means that it is YOUR job. > > On the other hand, looking at the respectability and successes of the > Cato Institute, I am hopeful about the ability of a focused group to > influence from the sidelines through a speaker's bureau, symposia, > draft legislation, amicus briefs, legislative analysis, op-ed pieces, > etc. Focus is good, really of paramount importance. The FSP, for example, only focuses on building its membership toward the 20k goal to trigger the migration. Everything else that is going on is being done by the members who want to demonstrate our effectiveness in order to build credibility for the goal of the group as a whole. A lot of cynics, even among libertarians, claim that 20k people can't acheive anything. We are proving that is not true, that only a handful can have an immense impact. The Pro-Actionary Principle needs a LOT more publicity. Has ExI sent out press releases through an online press release fax service (for a few hundred bucks, they will send it to thousands of media contacts) regarding the PAP? If not, someone should volunteer to get it done. Has ExI set one or two primary agenda foci for this year? Seems to me that media attention to the stem cell debate is picking up steam again. The TV piece the other night on the Howard Hughes Medical Institute's sponsoring of stem cell research is just one example. This will be a significant issue in this election. Christopher Reeve is directing a movie at the moment regarding a paralyzed main character, and the script is supposed to contain content regarding the need for stem cell research. Another issue might be cryonics. With the number of dead in Iraq mounting every day, ExI and Alcor could make a propaganda campaign illustrating the number of soldiers whose lives might have been saved if they'd had short term treatment on the battlefield to cool them down to hypothermic states until they could reach a hospital. Another big one would be to team with EFF and ACLU regarding Patriot Act violations of electronic rights. Engagement is of paramount importance. Sitting in an Ivory Tower and issuin white papers that nobody reads because they don't know about them isn't as effective as could be done with effective promotion. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jul 20 01:40:44 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:40:44 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal maze Message-ID: <40FC781C.7070104@pobox.com> http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html (Specifically: http://www.mathpuzzle.com/smallfractalmaze.gif) This... is... so... freaking... cool. "And *now* I know what our descendants will be doing from the Singularity to the heat death of the universe." -- Emil Gilliam -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 01:58:56 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:58:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal maze In-Reply-To: <40FC781C.7070104@pobox.com> Message-ID: <003601c46dfd$1e35c3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Oh man this is wicked cool, thanks Eli! spike ps: I solved the two mathematical puzzles on the Google.com billboard. It got me into a website that invited me to send in a resume. {8^D > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Eliezer Yudkowsky > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:41 PM > To: ExI chat list; World Transhumanist Association Discussion > List; transhumantech at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal maze > > > http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html > (Specifically: http://www.mathpuzzle.com/smallfractalmaze.gif) > > This... is... so... freaking... cool. > > "And *now* I know what our descendants will be doing from the > Singularity > to the heat death of the universe." > -- Emil Gilliam > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 02:02:15 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:32:15 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal maze In-Reply-To: <40FC781C.7070104@pobox.com> References: <40FC781C.7070104@pobox.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040719190221435e44@mail.gmail.com> Please excuse my stupidity... what does the +/- sign to the bottom left signify? On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:40:44 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html > (Specifically: http://www.mathpuzzle.com/smallfractalmaze.gif) > > This... is... so... freaking... cool. > > "And *now* I know what our descendants will be doing from the Singularity > to the heat death of the universe." > -- Emil Gilliam > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jul 20 02:29:15 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:29:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze In-Reply-To: <003601c46dfd$1e35c3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <003601c46dfd$1e35c3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <40FC837B.9070804@pobox.com> Spike wrote: > Oh man this is wicked cool, thanks Eli! spike >> http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html Imagine the Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze. The basic template is a 4th-dimensional hypercube, with 8 component cubes, each component cube filled with pathways and staircases and ladders. Some pathways and staircases re-enter a cube of the maze. For simplification (wicked grin) any given cube might contain re-entrant cubes of only the same room. 3D analogy: Imagine the basic fractal maze as a cube with six sides; any given square might contain re-entrances only into that same square of the fractal cube. As a 3D human being walks around the corners of a 4D tesseract, the apparent orientation of the rooms changes. If you carry your personal gravity with you (that is, you experience no apparent sudden changes of gravity as you walk through the tesseract) then you can walk out of a room through one corridor, and seemingly reenter from what used to be the ceiling. Imagine a Flatlander walking along the square sides of a cube. The Flatlander can exit a square through a ceiling going up, make 2 90-degree turns, and instead of re-entering that square from the ceiling going down (as he expects), re-enter that square from the side going down. Thus, as you walked through the Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze, the paths you could take and Escher staircases you could traverse would depend on your apparent direction of gravity. I'd like to live in *that* crooked house. It wouldn't just be a question of getting to the bathroom, it would be a question of getting to the bathroom using a path that put the toilet on the apparent floor. You might have to cross through your bathroom with the toilet on a side wall in a fractal subcube on your way to getting to your bathroom on the top level with the toilet on the floor. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 02:48:09 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:48:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze In-Reply-To: <40FC837B.9070804@pobox.com> Message-ID: <004801c46e04$016642a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> The site doesn't really explain what you are supposed to do. A fractal maze is where each of the insets are a smaller but otherwise identical version of the larger puzzle. So you can go down a level. Or two. Or three. The trick is to get from - to +. This one is pretty easy, but there are other fractal mazes so evil you go half crazy trying to solve them. I enjoy going half crazy. {8-] spike > Eliezer Yudkowsky > Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze > > > Spike wrote: > > > Oh man this is wicked cool, thanks Eli! spike > >> http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html > > Imagine the Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze. > > The basic template is a 4th-dimensional hypercube, with 8 > component cubes... From velvethum at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 03:02:21 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:02:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze References: <003601c46dfd$1e35c3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <40FC837B.9070804@pobox.com> Message-ID: Speaking of hypercubes and fun... http://www.scifidimensions.com/Apr03/hypercube.htm Slawomir Paliwoda From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 05:49:02 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:49:02 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Extropian party In-Reply-To: <144460-220047314144715825@M2W053.mail2web.com> References: <144460-220047314144715825@M2W053.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52040719224950567c26@mail.gmail.com> Where is this party, I will join anytime. I do not think an extropian/transhumanist party would have success in the political worls because our focus is too narrow for system-wide politics. A political party really has to say something precise on all issues that may possible interest people. A loose association with a mainstream political party with the desided characteristics would perhaps be more appropriate, but I have never seen a mainstream party of the type that you describe below. What exactly has beeen going on for about 30 years in Telluride? On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:47:15 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: ..., I'd rather see a futuristic party that had a smart set of > strategists who could design a rational architecture that has a broad > understanding of society, the future, science, technology, and economics. > I'd like to see this party have representatives from all existing parties > around the word. I suppose it would be a World Citizen's or Citizen's of > the World political party. > > A dream I have had for many years is to have a symposium in Telluride of > some of the most apt thinkers to design this. In fact this has been going > on for about 30 years in Telluride, but never gets to a next step. > > Natasha From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jul 20 08:53:32 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:53:32 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze In-Reply-To: <004801c46e04$016642a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <40FC837B.9070804@pobox.com> <004801c46e04$016642a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040720085332.GP1141@leitl.org> On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 07:48:09PM -0700, Spike wrote: > This one is pretty easy, but there are other fractal mazes > so evil you go half crazy trying to solve them. How about these? * figure out how much structural information is lost during vitrification * figure out how much structural information is required to preserve identity * upload a critter * figure out a viable set of mechanosynthetic reactions * build a molecular assembler * figure out how to make cheap solar cells * figure out how to make cheap fuel cells * figure out how to write an uncensorable cryptographic p2p infrastructure * implement micrograin digicash * write an AI seed -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Jul 20 14:00:59 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:00:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal maze Message-ID: <127090-22004722014059719@M2W075.mail2web.com> From: Eliezer >http://www.mathpuzzle.com/18Nov2003.html >(Specifically: http://www.mathpuzzle.com/smallfractalmaze.gif) >This... is... so... freaking... cool. *Way cool to this link : http://www.mefferts.com/flash.html Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 20 15:48:58 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fractal Escher Tesseract Maze In-Reply-To: <20040720085332.GP1141@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040720154858.3910.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 07:48:09PM -0700, Spike > wrote: > > > This one is pretty easy, but there are other > fractal mazes > > so evil you go half crazy trying to solve them. > > How about these? [etc.] They're fun too, and some of us are working on them, but they take a lot longer to do. From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jul 20 19:16:30 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:16:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] another cancer vaccine Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720141503.01c33e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/20/1090089157542.html?oneclick=true Patients at two Melbourne hospitals given a protein found in many cancers and a drug to boost immunity developed strong immune responses, producing antibodies to the protein as well as helper T-cells and killer T-cells. Patients given just the protein or a placebo had a weaker immune response. Many have developed secondary cancers. ... He said the protein NY-ESO-1 was present in about 40 per cent of melanomata, and was also found in lung, bladder, breast, head and neck cancers. "It has the potential to be applied broadly to a range of cancers, but not to all cancers," he said. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 00:58:49 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:28:49 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <57811ABA-D824-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <57811ABA-D824-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? Emlyn On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:06:00 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Bath? Who the heck has the time to take a bath? :-) > > On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:21 AM, Brian Lee wrote: > > > Just came across this article about nanometer thick waterproofing: > > http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3198690 > > > > Could be that our bathable laptops and pdas are closer than we thought. > > > > BAL > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 01:22:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040721012216.71774.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take > showers. > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? While I mostly shower, does floating on one's back in the middle of a lake count as a 'bath'??? I do tend toward J... What if one doesn't like taking showers OR baths? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 01:25:53 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:55:53 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <20040721012216.71774.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040721012216.71774.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040720182578e5920b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:22:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take > > showers. > > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > While I mostly shower, does floating on one's back in the middle of a > lake count as a 'bath'??? I do tend toward J... It might... but then you are the exception that proves the rule in most situations, Mike. :-) > > What if one doesn't like taking showers OR baths? ;) I have no theory to cover crusties, sorry about that. Emlyn > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jul 21 02:11:42 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:11:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary Message-ID: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> 35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans walked on the Moon. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/apollo/apollo11/index.html Let's hope it wasn't our all-time high point. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:36:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary In-Reply-To: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040721023655.1630.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > 35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans walked on the Moon. > > http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/apollo/apollo11/index.html > > Let's hope it wasn't our all-time high point. Well, given recent events, I'd say not. Putting a probe into orbit around Saturn is way cooler, and SpaceShipOne is the Scott Carpenter stage of private manned flight. As for Bush's initiative to return to the moon, I'd say the govt should stay out, outside of offering X-Prize type rewards to the first private acheivements such as: $50 million: First private reusable orbiter with three men, relaunched within two weeks $100 million: First tourist orbiter, minimum 10 paying passengers, 6 months continuous service of at least one launch per month. $250 million: First operational hotel in space, in service for one year, average occupancy 10 guests. $500 million: First private moon landing, crew of three. $1 billion per year, for ten years: First operational moon base, with payments continuing so long as base is occupied by at least 5 persons at all times. $1 billion: Manned mission to Mars. This is all way cheaper than having NASA do it, and will likely result with multiple competing systems being developed for each prize category. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 03:25:30 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:25:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a001c46ed2$60742b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > Emlyn Im a P. Whats a "bath"? Is that one of those Australia things? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 03:31:32 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:31:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] bad writing contest: genetic engineering {8^D In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720141503.01c33e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <00a301c46ed3$37e7cef0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Worse is better in writing contest SOFTWARE DEVELOPER WINS SJSU AWARD WITH WORST EXAMPLE OF PURPLE PROSE By Dana Hull Mercury News ... Dave Zobel, 42, won first place in San Jose State University's 23rd Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest, an annual event that parodies the most atrocious beginning to an imaginary novel. ... The contest has a number of thematic categories, from adventure to detective, romance and science fiction. Frances Grimble of San Francisco won the children's literature category: ``Jack planted the magic beans and in one night a giant beanstalk grew all the way from the Earth up to the clouds -- which sounds like a lie, but it can be done with genetic engineering, and although a few people are against eating gene-engineered foods like those beans it's a high-paying career to think about for when you grow up.'' {8^D spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 03:33:28 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <00a001c46ed2$60742b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040721033328.86715.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > > > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs > J/P > > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take > showers. > > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > Im a P. Whats a "bath"? Is that one of those Australia things? It's what you P in... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 03:37:02 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:37:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <20040721033328.86715.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a401c46ed3$fd0059f0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > > Im a P. Whats a "bath"? Is that one of those Australia things? > > It's what you P in... > > ===== > Mike Lorrey No, thats a shower. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 21 03:40:10 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:40:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <00a001c46ed2$60742b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> <00a001c46ed2$60742b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720223808.01bdbec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:25 PM 7/20/2004 -0700, spike wrote: >Whats a "bath"? Is that one of those Australia things? Only Poms are supposed to pose that question. (Don't ask what a `Pom' is, life is already too complicated.) Damien Broderick [a showering J, mostly] From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 04:21:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:21:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720223808.01bdbec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000201c46eda$2d99b330$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > At 08:25 PM 7/20/2004 -0700, spike wrote: > > >Whats a "bath"? Is that one of those Australia things? > > Only Poms are supposed to pose that question. > > (Don't ask what a `Pom' is, life is already too complicated.) > > Damien Broderick [a showering J, mostly] Ah but of course Google knows everything, mate. Thus sayeth: ...Morely plans to be the best Pommy bastard he can be... Sydney Morning Herald discussing Adrian Morley, 16 February 2001 Pom, or Pommy, has long been used in strine as meaning English, or an Englishman. And its use brings up the whole Australian England relationship, which has always been somewhat of a love hate dichotomy. In the earliest of days, of course, we were predominately English (apart from the aboriginals, of course). We arrived in our convict ships, and set up camp. And we owe much of our culture and language to the English, that can't be denied and is discussed elsewhere. Aint it great living in the 21st? {8-] spike From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jul 21 05:48:54 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:48:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary References: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> Message-ID: <002c01c46ee6$69644950$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Eliezer Yudkowsky" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:11 PM > 35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans walked on the Moon. Ah, yes ... I remember it well! (attachment is of my first son and first husband) Olga -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0721691.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Jul 21 06:18:16 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:18:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary References: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> <002c01c46ee6$69644950$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <059d01c46eea$82b6fed0$55aa1218@Nano> That's awesome! G` ----- Original Message ----- From: Olga Bourlin To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary From: "Eliezer Yudkowsky" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:11 PM > 35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans walked on the Moon. Ah, yes ... I remember it well! (attachment is of my first son and first husband) Olga Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 21 08:06:39 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:06:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> References: <57811ABA-D824-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040721080639.GA1141@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 21, 2004 at 10:28:49AM +0930, Emlyn wrote: > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? I think your theory is correct. I'm somewhere in Keirseyspace between ENTJ/ENTP and I do both. I'm sure the cold, dark wet European winters have nothing to do with it whatsoever. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 13:29:21 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:29:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath Message-ID: INTP. I take showers daily, but I enjoy a slow bath when time allows. BAL >From: Emlyn >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:28:49 +0930 > >I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P >dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. >I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > >Emlyn > >On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:06:00 -0700, Samantha Atkins > wrote: > > Bath? Who the heck has the time to take a bath? :-) > > > > On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:21 AM, Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > Just came across this article about nanometer thick waterproofing: > > > http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3198690 > > > > > > Could be that our bathable laptops and pdas are closer than we >thought. > > > > > > BAL > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > >-- >Emlyn >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Jul 21 14:11:13 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:11:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] EDU: NEW COURSE: Industry Convergence (UCLA Extension) Message-ID: <196520-220047321141113547@M2W034.mail2web.com> I am forwarding this upcoming UCLA course taught by Jeannie Novak. Jeannie is a big-mover in the entertainment gaming industry and she is an absolute delight to listen to. Enjoy! Natasha ========================================================== NEW COURSE: Industry Convergence (UCLA Extension) July 20, 2004 ========================================================== Attention: Indiespace List Members, ---------------------------------------------------------- Jeannie Novak is teaching a new UCLA Extension course starting this Saturday: Industry Convergence: Film, TV, Music, Toys & Games Starts Saturday, July 24; 10:00am-1:00pm UCLA 2209A Bunche Hall Register online at http://uclaextension.edu (For fast enrollment, click on the "Quick Enroll" tab and enter Reg# Q5788B in the field) Industry Convergence: Film, TV, Music, Toys & Games ---------------------------------------------------------- The game industry is the fastest growing segment of the entertainment market and an excellent field for career advancement for film, television, and music industry professionals who are interested in making a career transition. To prepare participants who want to advance their careers in the game business or who are merely interested in this rapidly converging market, this course will cover both similarities and differences between games and film/television and discuss how to transfer traditional media skills to specific positions within the game industry. Topics covered include genres, platforms, storytelling techniques, character development, ratings, historical analysis, market research, production phases, management techniques, crew roles and responsibilities, cinematics vs player control, linearity vs non-linearity, player-developer collaboration, and the significance of gameplay. New hybrid forms of entertainment ??? such as machinima (???machine cinema???) -- will also be covered. ========================================================== Indiespace - independent arts & entertainment _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=14488&s=D13C8C1B43123286&m=78 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 14:20:05 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:50:05 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0407210720770e9ff4@mail.gmail.com> Lol, I think this might be working out. btw, I know that we all take showers (except the poms of course). I probably should have said that it's the "slow bath when time allows" that I think is the domain of the P. Whereas, I notice the Js tend to not see the point of it. So I amend the theory to say J -> don't like baths, P -> like baths. Spike, surely you take the odd bath? At least to try to raise your core temperature when the woollen suits don't do the trick? Or did you go off that faddish diet of yours? ;-) Emlyn (eNtP) On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:29:21 -0400, Brian Lee wrote: > INTP. I take showers daily, but I enjoy a slow bath when time allows. > > BAL > > >From: Emlyn > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:28:49 +0930 > > > > > >I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > >dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > >I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > >Emlyn > > > >On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:06:00 -0700, Samantha Atkins > > wrote: > > > Bath? Who the heck has the time to take a bath? :-) > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2004, at 4:21 AM, Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > > > Just came across this article about nanometer thick waterproofing: > > > > http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3198690 > > > > > > > > Could be that our bathable laptops and pdas are closer than we > >thought. > > > > > > > > BAL > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > >-- > >Emlyn > > > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Jul 21 14:39:47 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath Message-ID: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> Emlyn wrote: > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > Emlyn Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while soaking. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From CCThompson at edwardhoward.com Wed Jul 21 15:07:15 2004 From: CCThompson at edwardhoward.com (Chris Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:07:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nano Business Competition Message-ID: The first International Nanotechnology Business Idea Competition is now accepting submissions from researchers and entrepreneurs. Organizers are offering $75,000 in prize money and business assistance services to the most promising ideas for commercial applications of nano research. The competition is being organized by Case Western Reserve University and the Nano Network, a group of nanotech advocates in Ohio. The deadline for submissions is September 1 and winners will be announced in October. If you would like more information on the competition or would like to tell your associates about it, more information is available at http://www.nano-network.org/competition/ Thanks, Chris Chris Thompson Vice President Edward Howard & Co. 1360 E. 9th St., 7th Floor Cleveland, OH 44114-1716 216-781-2400 216-781-8810 (fax) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 21 16:15:12 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary In-Reply-To: <20040721023655.1630.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040721161512.67854.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > 35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans > walked on the Moon. > > > > > http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/apollo/apollo11/index.html > > > > Let's hope it wasn't our all-time high point. > > Well, given recent events, I'd say not. Putting a > probe into orbit > around Saturn is way cooler, and SpaceShipOne is the > Scott Carpenter > stage of private manned flight. As for Bush's > initiative to return to > the moon, I'd say the govt should stay out, outside > of offering X-Prize > type rewards to the first private acheivements such > as: http://centennialchallenge.nasa.gov/ ...sorry. It had to be said. ;P From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 21 16:55:55 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:55:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moon landing anniversary In-Reply-To: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> References: <40FDD0DE.90200@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040721115523.01c85ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:11 PM 7/20/2004 -0400, Eliezer wrote: >35 years ago today, on July 20th 1969, humans walked on the Moon. > >http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/apollo/apollo11/index.html > >Let's hope it wasn't our all-time high point. Source: BBC OnLine http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/1/hi/world/americas/3912095.stm 07-20-04 US Panel Backs Space Budget Cut A US House of Representatives panel has voted to cut the money given to fund space, environment and science programmes for next year. Some was allocated instead to boost war veterans' health care by $2bn. Correspondents say the cut is a stark example of budget pressures faced by a Republican-run Congress. Democrats said spending limits were too tight. The move comes on the 35th anniversary of the day that Neil Armstrong took man's first steps on the Moon. The astronaut and his Apollo 11 crew members, Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins, gathered in Washington to celebrate their 1969 landing. 'Brutally fair' The BBC's Barnie Choudhury in Washington says the allocation of funds shows Congress' determination to provide cash at a time of war. "The choices have been brutally fair," said James Walsh, chief author of the measures. But some Democrats on the panel complained about the spending limits Republicans have voted to impose on Congress. "This year I think it's going to be very clear it's becoming excruciating, if not unacceptable," said Alan Mollohan, a top Democrat on the subcommittee. The measures will have to be supported by a full House and the Senate before US President George W Bush could approve it. Just $372m was provided out of the $910m Mr Bush wanted for initial preparations for manned missions to the Moon and Mars. Nasa's human space flight programme has been grounded since the shuttle Columbia disintegrated in February 2003, killing seven astronauts. In January, President Bush said astronauts will be back on the Moon by 2020, and will establish a lunar base to prepare for human exploration of Mars. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jul 21 17:34:10 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:34:10 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> References: <57811ABA-D824-11D8-9EF4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <710b78fc040720175858c71a45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My daughter is a P and she takes baths. I'm a J and I shower. Maybe you're on to something here! :) Regards, MB On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Emlyn wrote: > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:59:05 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:59:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] another cancer vaccine In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720141503.01c33e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040720141503.01c33e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040721115955e93f40@mail.gmail.com> Wonderful. I just wish there was a way to short-circuit some of the long process to gain access to these things. I am of an age to feel a lot more secure if there wasn't so long a wait. More importantly, I have friends who really can't wait. - s On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:16:30 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/20/1090089157542.html?oneclick=true > > Patients at two Melbourne hospitals given a protein found in many cancers > and a drug to boost immunity developed strong immune responses, producing > antibodies to the protein as well as helper T-cells and killer T-cells. > > Patients given just the protein or a placebo had a weaker immune response. > Many have developed secondary cancers. > > ... > > He said the protein NY-ESO-1 was present in about 40 per cent of > melanomata, and was also found in lung, bladder, breast, head and neck > cancers. "It has the potential to be applied broadly to a range of cancers, > but not to all cancers," he said. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 19:09:32 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:09:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <04Jul15.085051-0400_edt.312489-20088+3741@ams.ftl.affinity.com> References: <00f701c46a35$62078f10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <04Jul15.085051-0400_edt.312489-20088+3741@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040721120976ef31a3@mail.gmail.com> Depends on your definition of "human" and "tool making". Some other critters fashion primitive tools though for one time use afaik. On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:50:51 -0400, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Spike writes: > > > A small voice in the back of my mind is telling me > > human toolmaking only goes back ~100k yrs. > > I knew I wasn't the only one hearing those voices! > > -- > Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 19:23:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: technological equilibrium In-Reply-To: <948b11e040721120976ef31a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040721192326.4735.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Depends on your definition of "human" and "tool making". Some other > critters fashion primitive tools though for one time use afaik. Actually, a troop of apes in Africa has been found which has used the same rock and boulder to crack nuts in the same spot in the same way for generations. Looks like early homo habilis-like behavior. Dolphins have also been known to remember where they leave certain objects for long periods. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 01:48:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:48:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0407210720770e9ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901c46f8d$fda494b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > Spike, surely you take the odd bath? No, sure don't. Cannot recall last time I did so, but it was surely 4 decades ago. > At least to try to raise your > core temperature when the woollen suits don't do the trick? Showers raise the core temperature adequately. I actually have a bathtub now. It's just never been used. > Or did you go off that faddish diet of yours? ;-) Still CRing after all these years, still wearing the same oddball size I wore at age 16, still damn hard to find pants at the stores, 28/34. I dont know how they size clothing in centimeter countries. 71/86? {8^D > > Emlyn (eNtP) hey cool, Im a fellow eNtP. {8-] spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 02:04:28 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:34:28 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <006901c46f8d$fda494b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <006901c46f8d$fda494b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc040721190420ada83f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:48:20 -0700, Spike wrote: > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > > > Spike, surely you take the odd bath? > > No, sure don't. Cannot recall last time I did so, > but it was surely 4 decades ago. I couldn't do without them, but then I get really terrible headaches relatively frequently, and a scalding bath is excellent while I wait for the ibuprofen to kick in. I've gotta say lack of browser is a problem for me in the bath these days, though. > > > At least to try to raise your > > core temperature when the woollen suits don't do the trick? > > Showers raise the core temperature adequately. I actually > have a bathtub now. It's just never been used. Go on, try it... > > > Or did you go off that faddish diet of yours? ;-) > > Still CRing after all these years, still wearing > the same oddball size I wore at age 16, still damn hard > to find pants at the stores, 28/34. I dont know > how they size clothing in centimeter countries. 71/86? > {8^D > Sorry to tease you about CR; I thought you gave it up a while back. Personally I think it's probably a good idea, I'm just way too lazy to do it. > > > > Emlyn (eNtP) > > hey cool, Im a fellow eNtP. > > {8-] spike > I'd say we are the best, but that'd be sooo judgemental. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 02:18:51 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:48:51 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> References: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040721191853f7afb1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > > Emlyn > > Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking > baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while > soaking. > > Natasha > Actually we're currently renting our house, and it has no bath, so we put a clawfoot tub out the back (outside). The backyard is secluded, the bath is in amongst all manner of greenery (not due to my efforts, I am a chlorophobe, or possibly a chloropath). It's a beautiful place to stretch out in a steaming hot tub and contemplate, you know, stuff. Emlyn From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 02:45:28 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:45:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040721190420ada83f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801c46f95$f3169450$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > Sorry to tease you about CR; I thought you gave it up a while back. > Personally I think it's probably a good idea, I'm just way too lazy to > do it. No problem Emmers, Im cool with it. {8-] Ive noticed in the past 2-3 years, the frequency of positive mentions of CR in mainstream news media has increased dramatically. What I want to know is if the incidence of anorexia has dropped. Anyone know? It sure seems like most teenagers are heavier today than I ever recall. Those nifty hiphuggers from the 70s made a big comeback here with the teen set. {8-] Problem is, most of em today have a roll of flab hanging over the top. {8-[ > > hey cool, Im a fellow eNtP. > > > > {8-] spike > > > > I'd say we are the best, but that'd be sooo judgemental. Feynman was eNtP too. {8-] s From dgc at cox.net Thu Jul 22 03:23:07 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:23:07 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040721191853f7afb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> <710b78fc040721191853f7afb1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <40FF331B.4090103@cox.net> Showers are for getting clean (mostly.) Baths are for relaxing and contemplating the world. I shower every day (Gross waste of resources, but I'm a creature of habit.) My shower stall has a steam-bath system, which is a ridiculous extravagance. I love it. My wife tells me that I talk to myself and plan the day. I cannot refute this. Baths are for contemplation. My wife starts the day with a bath in the big tub. She usually reads. I don't do baths. I'll occasionally bathe to relax in the winter. I shower first to get clean, and and then get in the big tub with a book and a drink. ( and sometimes with my wife.) In summer, I usually get into the outside spa in the evening. I'm too lazy to swim in the pool. Other family members swim, and then get in the spa. I think deep philosophical thoughts, which I usually ( but not always) forget by the time I go back to my computer. If I had a waterproof computer, I might capture these wonderful insights. More likely, the computer would distract me and spoil the experience. Emlyn wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net > wrote: > > >>Emlyn wrote: >> >> >> >>>[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn >>>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath >>> >>>I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P >>>dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. >>>I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? >>> >>>Emlyn >>> >>> >>Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking >>baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while >>soaking. >> >>Natasha >> >> >> > >Actually we're currently renting our house, and it has no bath, so we >put a clawfoot tub out the back (outside). The backyard is secluded, >the bath is in amongst all manner of greenery (not due to my efforts, >I am a chlorophobe, or possibly a chloropath). It's a beautiful place >to stretch out in a steaming hot tub and contemplate, you know, stuff. > >Emlyn >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 04:22:10 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:52:10 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <40FF331B.4090103@cox.net> References: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> <710b78fc040721191853f7afb1@mail.gmail.com> <40FF331B.4090103@cox.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc04072121222462528d@mail.gmail.com> But the big question is, J or P??? Emlyn On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:23:07 -0400, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Showers are for getting clean (mostly.) Baths are for relaxing and > contemplating the world. > I shower every day (Gross waste of resources, but I'm a creature of > habit.) My shower > stall has a steam-bath system, which is a ridiculous extravagance. I > love it. My wife tells > me that I talk to myself and plan the day. I cannot refute this. > > Baths are for contemplation. My wife starts the day with a bath in the > big tub. She usually > reads. > > I don't do baths. I'll occasionally bathe to relax in the winter. I > shower first to get clean, and > and then get in the big tub with a book and a drink. ( and sometimes > with my wife.) > > In summer, I usually get into the outside spa in the evening. I'm too > lazy to swim in the pool. > Other family members swim, and then get in the spa. I think deep > philosophical thoughts, which > I usually ( but not always) forget by the time I go back to my computer. > If I had a waterproof > computer, I might capture these wonderful insights. More likely, the > computer would distract > me and spoil the experience. > > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net > > wrote: > > > > > >>Emlyn wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > >>>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > >>> > >>>I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > >>>dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > >>>I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > >>> > >>>Emlyn > >>> > >>> > >>Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking > >>baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while > >>soaking. > >> > >>Natasha > >> > >> > >> > > > >Actually we're currently renting our house, and it has no bath, so we > >put a clawfoot tub out the back (outside). The backyard is secluded, > >the bath is in amongst all manner of greenery (not due to my efforts, > >I am a chlorophobe, or possibly a chloropath). It's a beautiful place > >to stretch out in a steaming hot tub and contemplate, you know, stuff. > > > >Emlyn > > > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jul 22 06:15:52 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:15:52 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Art - Wither Thou Goest? Message-ID: <051301c46fb3$587ef180$6600a8c0@brainiac> Or is art going to "wither" (due to technology)?: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/technology/circuits/22mill.html?hp Olga From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Jul 22 14:49:58 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040721191853f7afb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040722074911.01d8a850@mail.earthlink.net> At 11:48 AM 7/22/04 +0930, Emlyn wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net > wrote: > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > > > > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > > > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > > > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > > > > Emlyn > > > > Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking > > baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while > > soaking. > > > > Natasha > > > >Actually we're currently renting our house, and it has no bath, so we >put a clawfoot tub out the back (outside). The backyard is secluded, >the bath is in amongst all manner of greenery (not due to my efforts, >I am a chlorophobe, or possibly a chloropath). It's a beautiful place >to stretch out in a steaming hot tub and contemplate, you know, stuff. ahhh ... By the way, are you singing in the bath?! You have such an amazing voice. N >Emlyn >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duggerj1 at charter.net Thu Jul 22 13:58:28 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (Jay Dugger) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:58:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Congress Considers NASA Budget Reduction Message-ID: <40FFC804.3030000@charter.net> Thursday, 22 July 2004 Hello all, Just after the anniversary of Apollo 11's landing, the House Appropriations Subcommitee considers a 7% reduction in NASA's budget. The vote takes place today, and you can find contact information for committee members at the National Space Society or Mars Society websites. Apollo looks just a bit more like a high-water mark. -- Jay Dugger : 314-551-8414 http://www.vss.fsi.com/~dugger From brentn at freeshell.org Thu Jul 22 14:48:45 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:48:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (7/21/04 13:34) MB wrote: >My daughter is a P and she takes baths. I'm a J and I shower. > >Maybe you're on to something here! :) > >Regards, >MB > > >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Emlyn wrote: > >> I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P >> dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. >> I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? I (ENTJ) take showers. Long, hot ones. I do my best thinking in the shower. My wife (INFJ) prefers baths. With books. She consistently scores more "J" on that axis than I do. That's a counterexample, not corroboration though. Sorry. :) B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jul 22 16:46:04 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] US Congress Considers NASA Budget Reduction In-Reply-To: <40FFC804.3030000@charter.net> Message-ID: <20040722164604.92043.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay Dugger wrote: > Just after the anniversary of Apollo 11's landing, > the House > Appropriations Subcommitee considers a 7% reduction > in NASA's budget. > The vote takes place today, and you can find contact > information for > committee members at the National Space Society or > Mars Society websites. > > Apollo looks just a bit more like a high-water > mark. Not really. They're justifying it as "cutting EVERYTHING else to pay for recent military activity". NASA gets no special treatment, pro or con. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jul 22 16:58:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Art - Wither Thou Goest? In-Reply-To: <051301c46fb3$587ef180$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040722165808.98775.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > Or is art going to "wither" (due to technology)?: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/technology/circuits/22mill.html?hp Depends on how the artist handles it. You can create the originals cheaper as well - and someone who wants to always have the latest will now have a steady demand for service, since any object that has been around for a while might have been duplicated. This has been true for a while; it's just moreso now. And that doesn't even begin to touch the new things once can do with old art forms that used to be impractical. (Like, say, do you want lines of faces all along every major inner wall of your cathedral, each one different but in a certain pattern that lends utility as well as aesthetics? Not only is it cheaper, but the pattern can be more precise...) From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jul 22 18:13:00 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:13:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Schrodinger's Black Cat Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040722130937.01c0dec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> or do I mean Schrodinger's Cat's Black Hole? or Schrodinger's Entangled Cat? < In his new calculation, Dr. Hawking said that because of quantum uncertainty, one could never be sure from a distance that a black hole had really formed. There is no way to discriminate between a real black hole and an apparent one. In the latter case an event horizon, the putative point of last return, could appear to form and then unravel; in that case the so-called Hawking radiation that came back out would not be completely random but would have subtle correlations and thus could carry information about what was inside. According to quantum theory, both possibilities - a real black hole and an apparent one - coexist and contribute to the final answer. The contribution of the no-black-hole possibilities is great enough to suffice to allow information to escape, Dr. Hawking argued. > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/science/22hawk.html?th=&pagewanted=print&position= Damien Broderick From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Jul 22 19:12:52 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:12:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] ARTS: Body Art Message-ID: <212790-22004742219125274@M2W050.mail2web.com> I was working on my presentation about body and design for the TV04 conference [I have 6 entities discussing basic issues about being posthuman (entities are Primo Posthuman (me), Ramona (Kurzweil), Creature (Karl Sims), Agent Smith (Matrix), Nano (Freitas), and NS-6 (robot).] As I was working on this, I got an e-mail from a friend ... http://www.alisonholland.com/dunbarchiappin.htm Enjoy! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From scerir at libero.it Thu Jul 22 20:11:51 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:11:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Schrodinger's Black Cat References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040722130937.01c0dec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <004901c47028$20b6a520$43c71b97@administxl09yj> It seems much worse than that, because Hawking is mixing quantum weirdness, Feynman path integral (nobody knows what these paths actually are, i.e. virtual?, real?, histories?, etc., anyway this 'picture' is broader than conventional quantum theory that requires unitarity in the dynamical time evolution) and GR. No one really understood what Hawking was saying (in Dublin) in detail. This included Kip Thorne, John Preskill, Matt Visser and many others. The jury is still out. Hawking's paper - with the details - will be out in a month. (For the speech in Dublin see far below). A comment by somebody who was there ... <<>> --------------------- (the speech) 21st July 2004 Speech by Professor Stephen Hawking at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation, Dublin Can you hear me. I want to report that I think I have solved, a major problem in theoretical physics, that has been around since I discovered that black holes radiate thermally, thirty years ago. The question is, is information lost in black hole evaporation. If it is, the evolution is not unitary, and pure quantum states, decay into mixed states. I'm grateful to my graduate student Christophe Galfard for help in preparing this talk. The black hole information paradox, started in 1967, when Werner Israel showed that the Schwarzschild metric, was the only static vacuum black hole solution. This was then generalized to the no hair theorem, the only stationary rotating black hole solutions of the Einstein Maxwell equations, are the Kerr Newman metrics. The no hair theorem implied that all information about the collapsing body, was lost from the outside region, apart from three conserved quantities, the mass, the angular momentum, and the electric charge. This loss of information wasn't a problem in the classical theory. A classical black hole would last for ever, and the information could be thought of as preserved inside it, but just not very accessible. However, the situation changed when I discovered that quantum effects would cause a black hole, to radiate at a steady rate. At least in the approximation I was using, the radiation from the black hole would be completely thermal, and would carry no information. So what would happen to all that information locked inside a black hole, that evaporated away, and disappeared completely. It seemed the only way the information could come out, would be if the radiation was not exactly thermal, but had subtle correlations. No one has found a mechanism to produce correlations, but most physicists believe one must exist. If information were lost in black holes, pure quantum states would decay into mixed states, and quantum gravity wouldn't be unitary. I first raised the question of information loss in 75, and the argument continued for years, without any resolution either way. Finally, it was claimed that the issue was settled in favour of conservation of information, by ADS, CFT. ADS, CFT, is a conjectured duality between supergravity in anti de Sitter space, and a conformal field theory on the boundary of anti de Sitter space, at infinity. Since the conformal field theory is manifestly unitary, the argument is that supergravity must be information preserving. Any information that falls in a black hole in anti de Sitter space, must come out again. But it still wasn't clear, how information could get out of a black hole. It is this question, I will address. Black hole formation and evaporation, can be thought of as a scattering process. One sends in particles and radiation from infinity, and measures what comes back out to infinity. All measurements are made at infinity, where fields are weak, and one never probes the strong field region in the middle. So one can't be sure a black hole forms, no matter how certain it might be in classical theory. I shall show that this possibility, allows information to be preserved, and to be returned to infinity. I adopt the Euclidean approach, the only sane way to do quantum gravity non-perturbative. In this, the time evolution of an initial state, is given by a Path integral over all positive definite metrics, that go between two surfaces, that are a distance T apart at infinity. One then Wick rotates the time interval, T, to the Lorentzian. The path integral is taken over metrics of all possible topologies, that fit in between the surfaces. There is the trivial topology, the initial surface, cross the time interval. Then there are the non trivial topologies, all the other possible topologies. The trivial topology can be foliated by a family of surfaces of constant time. The path integral over all metrics with trivial topology, can be treated canonically by time slicing. In other words, the time evolution (including gravity) will be generated by a Hamiltonian. This will give a unitary mapping from the initial surface, to the final. The non trivial topologies, can not be foliated by a family of surfaces of constant time. There will be a fixed point in any time evolution vector field on a non trivial topology. A fixed point in the Euclidean regime, corresponds to a horizon in the Lorentzian. A small change in the state on the initial surface, would propagate as a linear wave, on the background of each metric in the path integral. If the background contained a horizon, the wave would fall through it, and would decay exponentially at late time, outside the horizon. For example, correlation functions decay exponentially in black hole metrics. This means the path integral over all topologically non-trivial metrics, will be independent of the state on the initial surface. It will not add to the amplitude to go from initial state to final, that comes from the path integral over all topologically trivial metrics. So the mapping from initial to final states, given by the path integral over all metrics, will be unitary. One might question the use in this argument, of the concept of a quantum state for the gravitational field, on an initial or final space like surface. This would be a functional of the geometries of space like surfaces, which is not something that can be measured in weak fields near infinity. One can measure the weak gravitational fields, on a time like tube around the system, but the caps at top and bottom, go through the interior of the system, where the fields may be strong. One way of getting rid of the difficulties of caps, would be to join the final surface back to the initial surface, and integrate over all spatial geometries of the join. If this was an identification under a Lorentzian time interval, T, at infinity, it would introduce closed time like curves. But if the interval at infinity is the Euclidean distance, beta, the path integral gives the partition function for gravity at temperature, one over beta. The partition function of a system, is the trace over all states, weighted with e to the minus beta H. One can then integrate beta along a contour parallel to the imaginary axis, with the factor, e to the beta E0. This projects out the states with energy, E0. In a gravitational collapse and evaporation, one is interested in states of definite energy, rather than states of definite temperature. There is an infrared problem with this idea for asymptotically flat space. The Euclidean path integral with period beta, is the partition function for space at temperature, one over beta. The partition function is infinite, because the volume of space is infinite. This infrared problem can be solved by a small negative cosmological constant. It will not affect the evaporation of a small black hole, but it will change infinity to anti de Sitter space, and make the thermal partition function finite. The boundary at infinity is then a torus, S1, cross S2. The trivial topology, periodically identified anti de Sitter space, fills in the torus, but so also do non-trivial topologies, the best known of which is Schwarzschild anti de Sitter. Providing that the temperature is small compared to the Hawking Page temperature, The path integral over all topologically trivial metrics, represents self gravitating radiation, in asymptotically anti de Sitter space. The path integral over all metrics of Schwarzschild ADS topology, represents a black hole and thermal radiation, in asymptotically anti de Sitter. The boundary at infinity has topology, S1 cross S2. The simplest topology that fits inside that boundary, is the trivial topology, S1 cross D3, the three disk. The next simplest topology, and the first non-trivial topology, is S2 cross D2. This is the topology of the Schwarzschild anti de Sitter metric. There are other possible topologies that fit inside the boundary, but these two are the important cases, topologically trivial metrics, and the black hole. The black hole is eternal. It can not become topologically trivial at late times. In view of this, one can understand why information is preserved in topologically trivial metrics, but exponentially decays in topologically non trivial metrics. A final state of empty space without a black hole, would be topologically trivial, and be foliated by surfaces of constant time. These would form a three cycle, modulo the boundary at infinity. Any global symmetry, would lead to conserved global charges on that three cycle. These would prevent correlation functions from decaying exponentially in topologically trivial metrics. Indeed, one can regard the unitary Hamiltonian evolution, of a topologically trivial metric, as the conservation of information through a three cycle. On the other hand, a non trivial topology, like a black hole, will not have a final three cycle. It will not therefore have any conserved quantity, that will prevent correlation functions from exponentially decaying. One is thus led to the remarkable result, that late time amplitudes of the path integral over a topologically non trivial metric, are independent of the initial state. This was noticed by Maldacena in the case of asymptotically anti de Sitter3, and interpreted as implying that information is lost in the BTZ black hole metric. Maldacena was able to show that topologically trivial metrics, have correlation functions that do not decay, and have amplitudes of the right order to be compatible with a unitary evolution. Maldacena did not realize however, that it follows from a canonical treatment, that the evolution of a topologically trivial metric, will be unitary. So in the end, everyone was right, in a way. Information is lost in topologically non trivial metrics, like the eternal black hole. On the other hand, information is preserved in topologically trivial metrics. The confusion and paradox arose because people thought classically, in terms of a single topology for spacetime. It was either R4, or a black hole. But the Feynman sum over histories, allows it to be both at once. One can not tell which topology contributed the observation, any more than one can tell which slit the electron went through, in the two slits experiment. All that observation at infinity can determine, is that there is a unitary mapping from initial states, to final, and that information is not lost. My work with Hartle, showed the Radiation could be thought of as tunnelling out from inside the black hole. It was therefore not unreasonable to suppose that it could carry information out of the black hole. This explains how a black hole can form, and then give out the information about what is inside it, while remaining topologically trivial. There is no baby universe branching off, as I once thought. The information remains firmly in our universe. I'm sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to other universes. If you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in a mangled form, which contains the information about what you were like, but in an unrecognisable state. There is a problem describing what happens, because Strictly speaking, the only observables in quantum gravity, are the values of the field at infinity. One can not define the field at some point in the middle, because there is quantum uncertainty in where the measurement is done. However, in cases in which there are a large number, N, of light matter fields, coupled to gravity, one can neglect the gravitational fluctuations, because they are only one among N quantum loops. One can then do the path integral over all matter fields, in a given metric, to obtain the effective action, which will be a functional of the metric. One can add the classical Einstein Hilbert action of the metric, to this quantum effective action of the matter fields. If one integrated this combined action over all metrics, one would obtain the full quantum theory. However, the semi-classical approximation, is to represent the integral over metrics, by its saddle point. This will obey the Einstein equations, where the source is the expectation value of the energy momentum tensor, of the matter fields in their vacuum state. The only way to calculate the effective action of the matter fields, used to be perturbation theory. This is not likely to work in the case of gravitational collapse. However, fortunately we now have a non-perturbative method, in ADS CFT. The Maldacena conjecture, says that the effective action of a CFT on a background metric, is equal to the supergravity effective action, of anti de Sitter space with that background metric at infinity. In the large N limit, the supergravity effective action, is just the classical action. Thus the calculation of the quantum effective action of the matter fields, is equivalent to solving the classical Einstein equations. The action of an anti de Sitter like space, with a boundary at infinity, would be infinite, so one has to regularize. One introduces subtractions that depend only on the metric of the boundary. The first counter term is proportional to the volume of the boundary. The second counter term is proportional to the Einstein Hilbert action of the boundary. There is a third counter term, but it is not covariantly defined. One now adds the Einstein Hilbert action of the boundary, and looks for a saddle point of the total action. This will involve solving the coupled four and five dimensional Einstein equations. It will probably have to be done numerically. In this talk, I have argued that quantum gravity is unitary, and information is preserved in black hole formation and evaporation. I assume the evolution is given by a Euclidean path integral over metrics of all topologies. The integral over topologically trivial metrics, can be done by dividing the time interval into thin slices, and using a linear interpolation to the metric in each slice. The integral over each slice, will be unitary, and so the whole path integral will be unitary. On the other hand, the path integral over topologically non trivial metrics, will lose information, and will be asymptotically independent of its initial conditions. Thus the total path integral will be unitary, and quantum mechanics is safe. It is great to solve a problem that has been troubling me for nearly thirty years, even though the answer is less exciting than the alternative I suggested. This result is not all negative however, because it indicates that a black hole evaporates, while remaining topologically trivial. However, the large N solution is likely to be a black hole that shrinks to zero. This is what I suggested in 1975. In 1997, Kip Thorne and I, bet John Preskill, that information was lost in black holes. The loser or losers of the bet, are to provide the winner or winners with an encyclopaedia of their own choice, from which information can be recovered with ease. I'm now ready to concede the bet, but Kip Thorne isn't convinced just yet. I will give John Preskill the encyclopaedia he has requested. John is all American, so naturally he wants an encyclopaedia of baseball. I had great difficulty in finding one over here, so I offered him an encyclopaedia of cricket, as an alternative, but John wouldn't be persuaded of the superiority of cricket. Fortunately, my assistant, Andrew Dunn, persuaded the publishers Sportclassic Books, to fly a copy of Total Baseball, The Ultimate Baseball Encyclopedia to Dublin. I will give John the encyclopaedia now. If Kip agrees to concede the bet later, he can pay me back. ----------- for preposterous blog holes and golems ... look here http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000404.html . http://preposterousuniverse.blogspot.com/2004/07/hawking-speaks.html http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/archives/000057.html http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000403.html . From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 00:01:41 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:31:41 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc04072217016a2f9b5@mail.gmail.com> D'oh! Emlyn On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:48:45 -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > (7/21/04 13:34) MB wrote: > > >My daughter is a P and she takes baths. I'm a J and I shower. > > > >Maybe you're on to something here! :) > > > >Regards, > >MB > > > > > >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Emlyn wrote: > > > >> I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > >> dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > >> I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > I (ENTJ) take showers. Long, hot ones. I do my best thinking in the shower. > > My wife (INFJ) prefers baths. With books. She consistently scores more "J" on that axis than I do. > > That's a counterexample, not corroboration though. Sorry. :) > > B > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 00:17:54 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:47:54 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040722074911.01d8a850@mail.earthlink.net> References: <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> <306450-220047321143947928@M2W088.mail2web.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040722074911.01d8a850@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc04072217176a1f31b8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:58 -0700, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 11:48 AM 7/22/04 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:39:47 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net > wrote: > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Books in the Bath > > > > > > I have a woolly theory that people with a "P" in the Myer-Briggs J/P > > > dimension tend toward taking baths, and those with a "J" take showers. > > > I'm "P" and I have baths, any other corroboration? > > > > > > Emlyn > > > > Do you have a window and a view from your bathtub? People who enjoy taking > > baths and are also artistically/aesthetically inclined enjoy a vista while > > soaking. > > > > Natasha > > > > Actually we're currently renting our house, and it has no bath, so we > put a clawfoot tub out the back (outside). The backyard is secluded, > the bath is in amongst all manner of greenery (not due to my efforts, > I am a chlorophobe, or possibly a chloropath). It's a beautiful place > to stretch out in a steaming hot tub and contemplate, you know, stuff. > ahhh ... > > By the way, are you singing in the bath?! You have such an amazing voice. > > N > Thanks! Actually, I torture the neighbours enough already I think, actually singing outside in the bath would just be too much. (btw, new stuff coming out soon, Jodie & I have decided to reform The Land Canaan after all this time and go for it again. I know I've promised it before but this time it's really true. We will likely finish a techno, metal-inspired version of Dido's Lament this weekend, and I'll pop it on my website as soon as it's ready. Also, my website is a bit flaky at the moment as I've just moved to self hosting, but it'll settle down as I solve problems with my dsl, etc etc, so if it's not there when you look, try again a bit later :-) ) Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 00:19:40 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Cool' fuel cells In-Reply-To: <212790-22004742219125274@M2W050.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040723001940.53740.qmail@web60007.mail.yahoo.com> Extropes, Size, weight, lower operating temp, reduced cost, and higher efficiencies is what caught my eye. In particular: "would provide ... electrical energy ... at an efficiency of approximately 65 percent. ... a twofold increase over power plants ... at 30 to 35 percent." UH researchers developing efficient, practical power source alternatives http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-07/uoh-fc072204.php "Compared to the macroscopic size of traditional fuel cells that can take up an entire room, thin film SOFCs are one micron thick ? the equivalent of about one-hundredth of a human hair. Putting this into perspective, the size equivalent of four sugar cubes would produce 80 watts ? more than enough to operate a laptop computer, eliminating clunky batteries and giving you hours more juice in your laptop. By the same token, approximately two cans' worth of soda would produce more than five kilowatts, enough to power a typical household." Keeping in mind that one thin film SOFC is just a fraction of the size of a human hair with an output of 0.8 to 0.9 Volts, a stack of 100 to 120 of these fuel cells would generate about 100 volts. When connected to a homeowner's natural gas line, the stack would provide the needed electrical energy to run the household at an efficiency of approximately 65 percent. This would be a twofold increase over power plants today, as they operate at 30 to 35 percent efficiency. SOFCs, in general, operate at 900 to 1,000 degrees Celsius, a very high temperature that requires exotic structural materials and significant thermal insulation. However, the thin film solid oxide fuel cell has an operating temperature of 450 to 500 degrees Celsius, one half that of current SOFCs. This lower temperature is largely a result of the drastically decreased thickness of the electrolyte-working region of these thin film SOFCs and negates the need for exotic structural materials and extensive insulation. The lower temperature also eliminates the need for catalysts (known as reformers) for the fuel cell. All of these features indicate a reduced cost for the thin film SOFC and positive future impact on the fuel cell market. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jul 23 13:24:53 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:24:53 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Art - Wither Thou Goest? In-Reply-To: <051301c46fb3$587ef180$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <051301c46fb3$587ef180$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I see my art as my local intelligence manipulating a miniscule part of the greater intelligence of the universe. It expresses an idea. The idea is still mine, even though I put the energy out there for others. It is an intellectual footprint, if you will. So if that art really "does something" for people, then I would want as many people to have it as possible. If it transcends, then I would want it to transcend financial and physical barriers as well. That being said, I'd want my idea to be free, and most importantly - copied in exacting accuracy. Ten years ago getting a work copied in good detail was harder than today. Even today 2d works are difficult to match outside of their medium (say a photographic print of an oil painting) because the reproducing form does not capture the original character. I had an inter-negative postscript process I developed, and only recently have 6-color printers been able to re-create a similar depth of tone. But what if this replicator in the article could pour over my sculpture, and reproduce it in a slab of marble that came from the same quarry? If I had time to go over it and touch it up, I'd give it my approval I think. People are going to copy a good idea. It is a human trait. The best you can do is charge where you can, what you feel is right. If a multinational wants your work in a commercial, or a collector "must have" it, then they pay a price. This return on your work provides capital to drive your newer projects. If done properly, you stay ahead of the curve. That's my two kopeks worth. Bret Kulakovich On Jul 22, 2004, at 2:15 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/technology/circuits/22mill.html?hp From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Jul 23 21:06:12 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:06:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy - blog comments - interesting Message-ID: <195010-22004752321612441@M2W039.mail2web.com> Just read this, interesting ... :-) http://www.samizdata.net/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=6285 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From sentience at pobox.com Sat Jul 24 05:44:32 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:44:32 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perplexing deduction of the day Message-ID: <4101F740.7010204@pobox.com> In propositional logic, (~(p->q))->(p&~q) is a theorem. Therefore, (~(p->~q))->(p&q) is a theorem. If the moon is made of green cheese, this does not imply that I will not win the lottery on Tuesday. Therefore the moon is made of green cheese and I will win the lottery on Tuesday. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jul 24 06:14:37 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Perplexing deduction of the day In-Reply-To: <4101F740.7010204@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040724061438.96996.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > In propositional logic, (~(p->q))->(p&~q) is a > theorem. > Therefore, (~(p->~q))->(p&q) is a theorem. > > If the moon is made of green cheese, this does not > imply that I will not > win the lottery on Tuesday. > > Therefore the moon is made of green cheese and I > will win the lottery on > Tuesday. English-to-logic translation error. If "the moon is made of green cheese" is A, and "you (I) will win the lottery on Tuesday" is B, then... > If the moon is made of green cheese, this does not > imply that I will not > win the lottery on Tuesday. ...is NOT the same as ~(A->~B). ~(A->~B) would be better phrased as... The statement, "if the moon is made of green cheese, you (I) will not win the lottery on Tuesday," conflicts with observed history. ...which could only be true if the moon was made of green cheese yet you won the lottery on Tuesday anyway. (I use "observed history" since one can not perfectly predict the future - which one can not.) Put another way... > If the moon is made of green cheese, this does not > imply that I will not > win the lottery on Tuesday. ...can also be phrased... If the moon is made of green cheese, this does not say anything about whether anyone will or will not win the lottery on Tuesday. ...which does not translate into logic (there being no symbol for "not correlated"). Didn't we have this thread earlier? If you see an apparent contradiction in logical consequences from English (or other "natural") language statements, double-check your translations into logic before acting on your conclusion or spending further time analyzing it, because there is a good chance one of those translations is flawed (and thus, any actions assuming it was correct might in fact be counterproductive, and further analysis of this mistake are likely to be a waste of time). From sentience at pobox.com Sat Jul 24 06:27:20 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:27:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perplexing deduction of the day In-Reply-To: <20040724061438.96996.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040724061438.96996.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41020148.3000408@pobox.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Didn't we have this thread earlier? If you see an > apparent contradiction in logical consequences from > English (or other "natural") language statements, > double-check your translations into logic before > acting on your conclusion or spending further time > analyzing it, because there is a good chance one of > those translations is flawed (and thus, any actions > assuming it was correct might in fact be > counterproductive, and further analysis of this > mistake are likely to be a waste of time). Adrian, I already know why the logic doesn't work. (Albeit my phrasing is somewhat different from yours, having to do with the definition of propositional tautology as the absence of a contradictory model, which in English would probably translate to the existence of a counterexample among possible worlds). I was just throwing out something silly to amuse the mailing list, not complain about the paradox. Albeit I do wonder whether anyone has tried to describe in more detail what humans consider to be "obvious" deductions. It's not classical logic because ~(P->Q)->(P&~Q) does not seem humanly obvious, and it's not intuitionistic logic because humans see the Law of the Excluded Middle as obvious. So how does our psychology work, exactly? Has anyone studied it, I wonder? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 08:55:06 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:25:06 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology Message-ID: <710b78fc040724015574532b34@mail.gmail.com> An interesting article on the US's troubles with Islam, from NYT. I've included the whole thing, and here's the link (but you'll need to be registered): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/24/opinion/24brooks.html?th War of Ideology By DAVID BROOKS Published: July 24, 2004 When foreign policy wonks go to bed, they dream of being X. They dream of writing the all-encompassing, epoch-defining essay, the way George F. Kennan did during the cold war under the pseudonym X. Careers have been spent racing to be X. But in our own time, the 9/11 commission has come closer than anybody else. After spending 360 pages describing a widespread intelligence failure, the commissioners step back in their report and redefine the nature of our predicament. We're not in the middle of a war on terror, they note. We're not facing an axis of evil. Instead, we are in the midst of an ideological conflict. We are facing, the report notes, a loose confederation of people who believe in a perverted stream of Islam that stretches from Ibn Taimaya to Sayyid Qutb. Terrorism is just the means they use to win converts to their cause. It seems like a small distinction - emphasizing ideology instead of terror - but it makes all the difference, because if you don't define your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory. When you see that our enemies are primarily an intellectual movement, not a terrorist army, you see why they are in no hurry. With their extensive indoctrination infrastructure of madrassas and mosques, they're still building strength, laying the groundwork for decades of struggle. Their time horizon can be totally different from our own. As an ideological movement rather than a national or military one, they can play by different rules. There is no territory they must protect. They never have to win a battle but can instead profit in the realm of public opinion from the glorious martyrdom entailed in their defeats. We think the struggle is fought on the ground, but they know the struggle is really fought on satellite TV, and they are far more sophisticated than we are in using it. The 9/11 commission report argues that we have to fight this war on two fronts. We have to use intelligence, military, financial and diplomatic capacities to fight Al Qaeda. That's where most of the media attention is focused. But the bigger fight is with a hostile belief system that can't be reasoned with but can only be "destroyed or utterly isolated." The commissioners don't say it, but the implication is clear. We've had an investigation into our intelligence failures; we now need a commission to analyze our intellectual failures. Simply put, the unapologetic defenders of America often lack the expertise they need. And scholars who really know the Islamic world are often blind to its pathologies. They are so obsessed with the sins of the West, they are incapable of grappling with threats to the West. We also need to mount our own ideological counteroffensive. The commissioners recommend that the U.S. should be much more critical of autocratic regimes, even friendly ones, simply to demonstrate our principles. They suggest we set up a fund to build secondary schools across Muslim states, and admit many more students into our own. If you are a philanthropist, here is how you can contribute: We need to set up the sort of intellectual mobilization we had during the cold war, with modern equivalents of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, to give an international platform to modernist Muslims and to introduce them to Western intellectuals. Most of all, we need to see that the landscape of reality is altered. In the past, we've fought ideological movements that took control of states. Our foreign policy apparatus is geared toward relations with states: negotiating with states, confronting states. Now we are faced with a belief system that is inimical to the state system, and aims at theological rule and the restoration of the caliphate. We'll need a new set of institutions to grapple with this reality, and a new training method to understand people who are uninterested in national self-interest, traditionally defined. Last week I met with a leading military officer stationed in Afghanistan and Iraq, whose observations dovetailed remarkably with the 9/11 commissioners. He said the experience of the last few years is misleading; only 10 percent of our efforts from now on will be military. The rest will be ideological. He observed that we are in the fight against Islamic extremism now where we were in the fight against communism in 1880. We've got a long struggle ahead, but at least we're beginning to understand it. E-mail: dabrooks at nytimes.com -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 11:48:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Lighting A Quantum Candle On The Nature of Reality Message-ID: <20040724114830.12304.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2004/7/22/34816/0168 SciScoop - this is a story that only a physics geek can love, but to us, it's a really big deal. No longer must we curse the quantum darkness; somebody has lit a single quantum candle. Quantum particle entanglement is the closest thing to true Harry-Potter-style magic we know of today. Any increase in our current paltry knowledge of how this works has the potential to revolutionize our understanding of the nature of reality. From a UI press release: Like virtuosos tuning their violins, researchers at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have tuned their instruments and harmonized the production of entangled photons, pushing rates to more than 1 million pairs per second. The brighter and purer entangled states could assist researchers in applications involving quantum information processing - such as quantum computation, teleportation and cryptography - and help scientists better understand the mysterious transition from quantum mechanics to classical physics. "Entangled states are the quintessential feature of quantum mechanics," said Paul Kwiat, a John Bardeen Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering and Physics at Illinois. "All the manifestations of quantum mechanics in the world around us arise from the basic but bizarre coupling that exists between entangled particles." From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 11:59:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Is the Universe a Virtual Reality Matrix? Message-ID: <20040724115953.33379.qmail@web50802.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/july2004/220704multiversetheory.htm Propaganda Matrix - "We may be a simulation ... creations of some supreme, or super-being," muses Britain's astronomer royal, Sir Martin Rees, a staunch advocate of the multiverse theory. He wonders whether the entire physical universe might be an exercise in virtual reality, so that "we're in the matrix rather than the physics itself". Is there any justification for believing this wacky idea? You bet, says Nick Bostrom, a philosopher at Oxford University, who even has a website devoted to the topic ( http://www.simulation-argument.com). "Because their computers are so powerful, they could run a great many simulations," he writes in The Philosophical Quarterly. So if there exist civilisations with cosmic simulating ability, then the fake universes they create would rapidly proliferate to outnumber the real ones. After all, virtual reality is a lot cheaper than the real thing. So by simple statistics, a random observer like you or me is most probably a simulated being in a fake world. And viewed from inside the matrix, we could never tell the difference. From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jul 24 15:48:29 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:48:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] singularity pop sci Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040724104610.01cf5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> A friend tells me: POPULAR SCIENCE for August 2004 features 1) an interview with Arthur C. Clarke and 2) a long knowledgable essay on the Singularity in SF, which focuses on Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow. These articles, alas, do not seem to be available at http://www.popsci.com/popsci/ Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Jul 24 18:12:53 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:12:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "I, Robot" and Kurzweil: on Astrobiology Radio Program re Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040724111040.01d7a900@mail.earthlink.net> Time will be 7 pm to 8 pm WEST COAST time (10 pm to 11 pm ET) this Sunday night, July 25. http://www.seti.org/epo/seti_radio/Welcome.html Ray Kurzweil will be appearing on a "new national radio show on astrobiology for the SETI Institute hosted by SETI Astronomer Seth Shostak. I will be a guest this Sunday night to talk about the future of artificial intelligence - using the movie "I, Robot," as the starting point. Isaac Asimov's daughter, Robyn, will also participate. From the producer: The central question is - how far-fetched is this movie? How far are we from thinking, talking, feeling robots (and is that our goal), and is the vision of a android future optimistic, such as Asimov wrote about, or something darker? What complicated puzzles do we have to solve before we have intelligent robots?" Enjoy! Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jul 24 16:23:06 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Lighting A Quantum Candle On The Nature of Reality In-Reply-To: <20040724114830.12304.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040724162306.85424.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > "All the manifestations of quantum > mechanics > in the world around us arise from the basic but > bizarre coupling that exists between entangled > particles." *rolls eyes* Why do people keep saying things like this? There are other, well-known phenomena responsible for certain QM properties that have nothing to do with entanglement. (Like the Planck length minima, and the quantized energy states that lent the field its name in the first place.) From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 17:38:46 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:38:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] singularity pop sci In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040724104610.01cf5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040724104610.01cf5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:48:29 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > A friend tells me: > > POPULAR SCIENCE for August 2004 features 1) an interview with Arthur C. > Clarke and 2) a long knowledgable essay on the Singularity in SF, which > focuses on Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow. These articles, alas, do not > seem to be available at http://www.popsci.com/popsci/ > True, but they are available HERE: Arthur C. Clarke Singularity in SF Isn't Google wonderful? BillK From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Sat Jul 24 21:36:45 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:36:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy - blog comments - interesting Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040724223445.01ca1e40@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> >Message: 1 >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:06:12 -0400 >From: "natashavita at earthlink.net" >Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy - blog comments - interesting >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Message-ID: <195010-22004752321612441 at M2W039.mail2web.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Just read this, interesting ... :-) >http://www.samizdata.net/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=6285 >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . There a good crowd over at Samizdata, most are very sympathetic to our ideals. I contribute some comments now and again (as I've done on entry 6285). James... From starman2100 at cableone.net Sat Jul 24 21:36:18 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:36:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Society for Venturism Moving Forward Message-ID: <1090704978_368475@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jul 25 04:35:58 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:35:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report Message-ID: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the worst dreams of my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been coming intermittently but consistently). Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end in sight? Re the 9/11 Commission Report: "The report offers vivid details on our worst fears. Instead of focusing on immediately hitting back at Osama, Bush officials indulged their idiotic id?e fixe on Saddam and ignored the memo from their counter-terrorism experts dismissing any connection between the religious fanatic bin Laden and the secular Hussein." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/25dowd.html?hp Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From es at popido.com Sun Jul 25 09:14:53 2004 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:14:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040725111303.03402f00@mail.popido.com> At 06:35 2004-07-25 Olga Bourlin wrote: >As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the worst dreams of >my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - >nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had nightmares any like this, >ever - and they've been coming intermittently but consistently). > >Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end >in sight? "International acts of terror in 2003 were the fewest in more than 30 years" http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/29/terror.report/index.html Regards, Erik From megaquark at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 13:53:56 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:53:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I remember having the same dreams and worries during the cold war ----- Original Message ----- From: Olga Bourlin To: ExI chat list Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:35 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the worst dreams of my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been coming intermittently but consistently). Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end in sight? Re the 9/11 Commission Report: "The report offers vivid details on our worst fears. Instead of focusing on immediately hitting back at Osama, Bush officials indulged their idiotic id?e fixe on Saddam and ignored the memo from their counter-terrorism experts dismissing any connection between the religious fanatic bin Laden and the secular Hussein." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/25dowd.html?hp Olga ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgc at cox.net Sun Jul 25 15:32:30 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:32:30 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <4103D28E.6020907@cox.net> Kevin Freels wrote: > I remember having the same dreams and worries during the cold war > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Olga Bourlin > *To:* ExI chat list > *Sent:* Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:35 PM > *Subject:* [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report > > As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the > worst dreams of my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" > caused by explosions - nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't > had nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been coming > intermittently but consistently). > > Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see > any end in sight? > > In fact, the problem was pervasive during that era, and many folk songs reflected it. "Bob Dylan's Dream" come to mind, but there were others. I recall the nuclear blast drills at school, and the time during the Cuban missile crisis when my friend's father came home from his Pentagon job and taped the curtains shut over the windows to minimize flying glass injuries. These things tend to give you quite a bit to dream about. From starman2100 at cableone.net Sun Jul 25 15:28:39 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:28:39 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report Message-ID: <1090769319_375931@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jul 25 16:41:06 2004 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:41:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040725111303.03402f00@mail.popido.com> References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040725111303.03402f00@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <4103E2A2.7030104@dsl.pipex.com> Erik Starck wrote: > "International acts of terror in 2003 were the fewest in more than 30 > years" > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/29/terror.report/index.html That report, of course, was erroneous and was later retracted. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/powell.terror/ BM From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jul 25 18:45:31 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:45:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] VIDEO: Saturday Night Screening at TV04 Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040725113102.03dfa890@mail.earthlink.net> Greetings! This is a last call for submitting your videos to the TransVision 2004 Conference Saturday Night Screening after Stelarc's presentation. Here is a partial list of films/videos to be screened: _________________________________________________________________ Future Watch Featuring FM-2030, Produced by CNN, USA (00.10 min.) FM talks about Are You A Transhuman? E V O, produced and directed by Oliver Hockenhull (00.77 min.) "Hockenhull's searching, absorbing, visually arresting exploration of and reflection on the history and future of evolutionary theory" Electronic Sheep, Produced and Directed by Draves, Scott (00:09 min.) Screen-saver animating and evolving artificial life-forms. Synthetic Pleasures, Director - Iara Lee, Producer - George Gund, Caipirinha Productions (00:60 min) Theatrical Release, feature film Featuring Max More Thus Spoke Posthuman, Director Chris Spencer, Producer BBC, England (00.8 min.) Performance by Natasha Vita-More Science of Beauty, Producer, Wall to Wall Television, Ltd., London, England (00:30 min.) Film takes a look at the meaning of 21st Century beauty Primo Posthuman, City TV, Director, Director David Giddens, Toronto, Canada (00:10 min.) Timothy Leary's Last Talk, Producer Natasha Vita-More and EZTV, Los Angeles (00:30 min.) Timothy Leary, two months before his death, talks about the past and the future Precipice, Produced and Directed by Elisabeth James and Elizabeth Witham (00:20 min.) President Bush's Bioethics Committee member (Hurlburt) in debate with transhumanists (de Gray and Vita-More) Stanford University Immortality on Ice, Produced by Discovery Channel, USA (00:60 min.) A look at cryonics and the future _________________________________________________________ If you have a video and would like to screen it, please email me. Create! Natasha Vita-More http://www.transhumanist.biz Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Jul 25 18:46:03 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:46:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Graps in Almanacco della Scienza Message-ID: Hi Folks, This is the result of an interview that the CNR press office had with me some time ago. Their goal: To write a 'profile' of scientists working at their institutes (technically I am not of CNR, but of INAF). I don't know why they chose me, except they said that scientists usually emigrate out, not immigrate in, and they were curious. ...some lightness for your end-of-week... http://www.almanacco.rm.cnr.it (go to the bottom). In Italian. The bungie jumping picture is 10 years old. :-) They plucked it from an obscure place. The article had a few things wrong, but that happens, sometimes. Amara --------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. The translation from Italian to English is the following. "Amara Lynn Graps, an astrophysicist divided between star dust and violins. In Hawaii [written Haway ... yipes!] my family was living in a houseboat [sailboat!] and one of my first souvenirs I remember is the enchant of the starry nights of Pacific Ocean. I do not think one can look at that night sky without asking oneself what is all this Universe we all can divide among ourselves. In this way the american Amara Lynn Graps (researcher at the IFSI, CNR, Rome) explains the origin of her passion to astrophysics. Amara works to three space missions. She is in fact managing [working in!] the projects of IR spectrometry on Cassini probe, now close to Saturn; on Rosetta probe, since few months on the way to the comet Churyumov-Gerasimenko; and on Dawn probe, which will be launched in one and half year towards the asteroids Vesta and Ceres. One could think to ask her how one would see the Earth from there above, were the IR images giving to the human eye the same pleasure of a starry sky. Anyway Amara has thought also to this: when one visits her website, one finds a link to NASA showing the virtual images of the Solar System when one is onboard of the Cassini probe. But what is doing a USA researcher in Italy, since usually the contrary happens ? "I desired to live in Europe, the continent where I have my roots", she explains. Amara Graps are latvian names indeed, and latvian is her father's nationality. "Therefore - she goes on - I have taken my PhD in Heidelberg, Germany, studying cosmic dust, interplanetary dust in particular, and its processes of ionization and its dynamics". "Being born and grown between Hawaii (Haway again in the it-text, yipes!) and California, however, in Germany I was seeing a so faint Sun, that I thought to Italy". In this way she reaches IFSI in Jan 2003. "Here I find many bureaucratic problems: also to repair the phone line, one needs so much time. Anyway in IFSI I've found big availability from my colleagues, overall during my first months here, which were very difficult for me. Italians know very well how to enjoy life". Amara too knows: bicycle, volcanoes, Cremona's violins, literature are only few of her ways to spend the short free time she can find out of job. Then her website, rich and deeply developed. "It is like an appendice of myself, a way to interact with the world". Besides space missions, Amara continues to study cosmic dust. "It is everywhere - she concludes - so that it can provide a large amount of information on the origin and evolution of planets, stars and the Universe itself. When one studies it, one put him/herself at the crosspoint among solid state physics, gravity and electrodynamics". So that, to make also others participating to her passion, Amara likes, from time to time, to write divulgation papers of astronomy and scientific calculus. To learn more: Amara Lynn Graps, IFSI, 0649934375 e-mail, website". -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From brian at posthuman.com Sun Jul 25 17:57:33 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:57:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? Message-ID: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> I'm sure this has occurred to developers working on spam filters, and perhaps it has even been implemented, but anyway: Why not judge email messages by spelling errors, and if they have too many then they get marked as spam? This would seem to get around the current problem of spammers coming up with all kinds of misspellings to get around current spam filters. And most mail clients have a user-extendable dictionary built in already for spell checking that could be used. Now to catch a high percentage of spam you might have to set this kind of filter to judge pretty harshly, and it might tend to catch legitimate emails. So it will have to be used as only part of a larger spam filter algorithm, but I do think it would help. Anyone know of any filters that use this technique? -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jul 25 19:05:08 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:05:08 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? In-Reply-To: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> References: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20040725190507.GF1174@leitl.org> On Sun, Jul 25, 2004 at 12:57:33PM -0500, Brian Atkins wrote: > Why not judge email messages by spelling errors, and if they have too > many then they get marked as spam? This would seem to get around the You might observe most messages nowaday come as multipart, and contain some more or less coherent verbiage -- while less than Markov chain text generator. AI literature is full of very good story generators, so you can assume spammers will be able to generate impeccable text once they're forced to. The HTML markup is disjointed, so you have to prerender that, to make sure only human-visible part will get translated. This is not so very trivial. Another score point is disparity between plain text part and the (prerendered) HTML part. Of course, you can still package the text in pictures... > current problem of spammers coming up with all kinds of misspellings to > get around current spam filters. And most mail clients have a > user-extendable dictionary built in already for spell checking that > could be used. > > Now to catch a high percentage of spam you might have to set this kind > of filter to judge pretty harshly, and it might tend to catch legitimate > emails. So it will have to be used as only part of a larger spam filter > algorithm, but I do think it would help. Sounds like a good plugin for SpamAssassin. > Anyone know of any filters that use this technique? Not me, but I'm getting lots less spam these days. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at posthuman.com Sun Jul 25 19:52:29 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:52:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? In-Reply-To: <20040725190507.GF1174@leitl.org> References: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> <20040725190507.GF1174@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41040F7D.6000804@posthuman.com> The main thing I'm thinking of is particular words like viagra that spammers know will increase a spam score dramatically. So they either omit the word or misspell it in a trillion different ways. I think spell checking incoming mail would help put a damper on that particular annoying tactic. Similarly you could check for grammar, overcapitalization, and other problems that spammers tend to fall into. It wouldn't rid us of all spam, but at least the ones that get through would make for more normal looking email. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From bjk at imminst.org Sun Jul 25 21:32:59 2004 From: bjk at imminst.org (Bruce J. Klein) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:32:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] VIDEO: Saturday Night Screening at TV04 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040725113102.03dfa890@mail.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040725113102.03dfa890@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4104270B.4050506@imminst.org> Hi Natasha, I look forward to your screening as ImmInst is working on a video project of the same nature, perhaps to be called: "Exploring Life Extension" I hope you and Max are able to participate and offer insight. http://www.imminst.org/film.php BJK Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Greetings! > > This is a last call for submitting your videos to the TransVision 2004 > Conference Saturday Night Screening after Stelarc's presentation. Here > is a partial list of films/videos to be screened: > _________________________________________________________________ > > */Future Watch/**/ Featuring FM-2030/*, Produced by CNN, USA (00.10 min.) > FM talks about /Are You A Transhuman? > > *E V O*/, produced and directed by Oliver Hockenhull (00.77 min.) > "Hockenhull's searching, absorbing, visually arresting exploration of > and reflection on the history and future of evolutionary theory" > > */Electronic Sheep/*, Produced and Directed by Draves, Scott (00:09 min.) > Screen-saver animating and evolving artificial life-forms. > > */Synthetic Pleasures/*, Director - Iara Lee, Producer - George Gund, > Caipirinha Productions (00:60 min) > Theatrical Release, feature film Featuring Max More > > */Thus Spoke Posthuman/*, Director Chris Spencer, Producer BBC, > England (00.8 min.) > Performance by Natasha Vita-More > > */Science of Beauty/*, Producer, Wall to Wall Television, Ltd., > London, England (00:30 min.) > Film takes a look at the meaning of 21st Century beauty > > */Primo Posthuman/*, City TV, Director, Director David Giddens, > Toronto, Canada (00:10 min.) > > */Timothy Leary's Last Talk/*, Producer Natasha Vita-More and EZTV, > Los Angeles (00:30 min.) > Timothy Leary, two months before his death, talks about the past and > the future > > */Precipice/*, Produced and Directed by Elisabeth James and Elizabeth > Witham (00:20 min.) > President Bush?s Bioethics Committee member (Hurlburt) in debate with > transhumanists (de Gray and Vita-More) Stanford University > > */Immortality on Ice/*, Produced by Discovery Channel, USA (00:60 min.) > A look at cryonics and the future > > _________________________________________________________ > > If you have a video and would like to screen it, please email me. > > Create! > > Natasha Vita-More > > http://www.transhumanist.biz > > > > Natasha Vita-More > http://www.natasha.cc > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz > > http://www.transhuman.org > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Jul 25 21:38:09 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? In-Reply-To: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20040725213809.16160.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Why not judge email messages by spelling errors, and > if they have too > many then they get marked as spam? This would seem > to get around the > current problem of spammers coming up with all kinds > of misspellings to > get around current spam filters. And most mail > clients have a > user-extendable dictionary built in already for > spell checking that > could be used. > > Now to catch a high percentage of spam you might > have to set this kind > of filter to judge pretty harshly, and it might tend > to catch legitimate > emails. So it will have to be used as only part of a > larger spam filter > algorithm, but I do think it would help. It would also reinforce the principle of "filter or bounce, but don't silently delete". But especially if it was set to bounce (and flagged if it caught the bad spelling), this might also screen email from those who can't be bothered to spell correctly even with email not intended to be spam - which does have some correlation with "non-spam" emails that might not be worth reading anyway. (And the grammar nazis of the world celebrate, as those they are infuriated by are forced to clean up their acts... ;) ) From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Jul 25 22:13:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had > the worst dreams of my life regarding > "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - > nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had > nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been > coming intermittently but consistently). > > Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? > Does anyone see any end in sight? Even as a grade schooler in the '80s, I looked back on history and saw Mutually Assured Destruction keeping us from nuclear war. I see parallels to that here: Muslim leaders see that American (and by extension Western) vengeance is not as precise as they would like, sweeping up some innocents along with those who assaulted them, and that America's military options are being stretched thin. (I emphasize the leaders here, who would be aware of this.) Which makes turning the Middle East into a glass desert seem like possibly the only remaining solution that will make America safe, *if* one of its cities is nuked (or subject to large-scale biochemical attack, or the like). The other nuclear powers that can hit the US might object somewhat, but in the aftermath of such an attack, and since their own soil wouldn't be touched, it is unlikely any of them would seriously threaten MAD if America employed this option. Which, in turn, comes up with a kind of MAD even now: Muslim leaders can make sure America is not attacked that way, or... And further, if America is attacked, even the terrorists know where their targets are. Civic pride might lead you to think your part of America is the most important, but look at it through the terrorists' eyes: they all know of Great Satan Bush, but how many of them have even heard of, say, Silicon Valley? Or Disneyland? Much of the US is almost guaranteed safe from their first WMD shot - and odds are they'll only have the resources to strike one city. I rest easy at night, knowing the odds that our efforts to create a better tomorrow that is proof against this kind of thing will most likely have the time they need to suceed. From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Sun Jul 25 22:21:01 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:21:01 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? In-Reply-To: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> References: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <4104324D.9050406@paradise.net.nz> Good idea. To a certain, though, Bayesian filters currently do this. Since no legitimate email would spell the names of drugs with numbers and punctuation embedded, these misspelled words will become indicators of spam (as you train the filter). Of course, spammers are very creative mis-spellers and can also mess with the filter by delineating words differently (v-1-ag-ra ..real..ch34p anyone?). Brian Atkins wrote: > I'm sure this has occurred to developers working on spam filters, and > perhaps it has even been implemented, but anyway: > > Why not judge email messages by spelling errors, and if they have too > many then they get marked as spam? This would seem to get around the > current problem of spammers coming up with all kinds of misspellings to > get around current spam filters. And most mail clients have a > user-extendable dictionary built in already for spell checking that > could be used. > > Now to catch a high percentage of spam you might have to set this kind > of filter to judge pretty harshly, and it might tend to catch legitimate > emails. So it will have to be used as only part of a larger spam filter > algorithm, but I do think it would help. > > Anyone know of any filters that use this technique? From megao at sasktel.net Sun Jul 25 21:20:57 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:20:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] spam & spelling? References: <4103F48D.4030801@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <41042438.D1536B0B@sasktel.net> Spam filters to be effective should be designed to data mine representative database of the recipient's documents and mail to create a dictionary or terms and phrases ranked by use and personal importance, independant of date stamping. Filtering would be on a ranking of incoming content against historically accepted content. Our ISP SASKTEL does a reasonably good job of catching most spam, however I do find it catches the odd thing it should not. Content based filtering might at least rank familiar content in spam higher than dissallowed content. I have looked through the spam box and find that in addition to the nonsense headers, misspelled headers, etc there is one new addition and that is the addition of a paragraph or 2 of legitimate technical content to an otherwise porn page. This would still make it past the content filter, but it seems the SASKTEL filter does a nice job of picking them off. Also, the Nigerian Scam letters seem to be totally gone for the last 3 months. >From a sender's viewpoint spam filters that catch items based on large numbers of recipients are a bit bothersome. For example If I have an item that I want to have sent to all 300 Members of the Canadian Parliament so that they are briefed as to background I feel might allow debate of and amendment to a forthcoming bill, and send it to all 300 at once it will likely be filed into the spam box. So I will have to break the 300 down into 15 groups of 20. In a way spammers have during their short lifetime done at least 1 valuable service; they have pushed us all to create these filters and better organize and target our mailings. MFJ Brian Atkins wrote: > I'm sure this has occurred to developers working on spam filters, and > perhaps it has even been implemented, but anyway: > > Why not judge email messages by spelling errors, and if they have too > many then they get marked as spam? This would seem to get around the > current problem of spammers coming up with all kinds of misspellings to > get around current spam filters. And most mail clients have a > user-extendable dictionary built in already for spell checking that > could be used. > > Now to catch a high percentage of spam you might have to set this kind > of filter to judge pretty harshly, and it might tend to catch legitimate > emails. So it will have to be used as only part of a larger spam filter > algorithm, but I do think it would help. > > Anyone know of any filters that use this technique? > -- > Brian Atkins > Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > http://www.singinst.org/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From es at popido.com Sun Jul 25 22:23:37 2004 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:23:37 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <4103E2A2.7030104@dsl.pipex.com> References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040725111303.03402f00@mail.popido.com> <4103E2A2.7030104@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040725231127.0341fbe8@mail.popido.com> At 18:41 2004-07-25 Bryan Moss wrote: >Erik Starck wrote: > >>"International acts of terror in 2003 were the fewest in more than 30 years" >>http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/29/terror.report/index.html > > >That report, of course, was erroneous and was later retracted. > >http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/powell.terror/ Some other numbers: this year, more than half of the population of the world goes to the election booth. That's the highest number of people ever. Average life expectancy is getting longer and longer. The number of people dying of famine each year is decreasing. The world is safer, better and a richer place for more people than ever in the history of mankind. And no, it's not because of Bush. Remember that when the news tell you how afraid you should be. Erik From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Jul 25 23:13:30 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:13:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41043E9A.1070701@jefallbright.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > >>As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had >>the worst dreams of my life regarding >>"end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - >>nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had >>nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been >>coming intermittently but consistently). >> >>Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? >>Does anyone see any end in sight? >> >> > >Even as a grade schooler in the '80s, I looked back on >history and saw Mutually Assured Destruction keeping >us from nuclear war. I see parallels to that here: >Muslim leaders see that American (and by extension >Western) vengeance is not as precise as they would >like, sweeping up some innocents along with those who >assaulted them, and that America's military options >are being stretched thin. (I emphasize the leaders >here, who would be aware of this.) Which makes >turning the Middle East into a glass desert seem like >possibly the only remaining solution that will make >America safe, *if* one of its cities is nuked (or >subject to large-scale biochemical attack, or the >like). The other nuclear powers that can hit the US >might object somewhat, but in the aftermath of such an >attack, and since their own soil wouldn't be touched, >it is unlikely any of them would seriously threaten >MAD if America employed this option. Which, in turn, >comes up with a kind of MAD even now: Muslim leaders >can make sure America is not attacked that way, or... > > > Unfortunately, we can no longer rely on MAD, because it relied on power kept balanced but escalated until the less fit system collapsed, with whatever remained of it to join the other, forming a more cooperative growing whole. The current playing field is quite different, and quite unbalanced, with small organizations increasingly able to inflict repeated damage on the larger organization. This changes the current playing rules quite a bit, but the overall game is still the same: Separate systems trying to maximize their own growth. We will struggle at the current plateau until the overall system finds a way to maximize overall growth at a higher level of cooperation. Our near term challenge is to get from the current level to the next with minimum loss. This will be achieved by reconfiguring the two competing systems as necessary, with destruction of less fit subsystems and enhancement of more fit subsystems. The key to minimizing loss is increasing intelligence in order to take accurate and effective action. Increasing the intelligence of military systems to defend and destroy accurately. Increasing the intelligence of human-based social systems to minimize conflict and increase cooperation. This is what will reduce the pain. What works is Mutual Assured Growth. What will get us there is increasing the intelligence of the human-social organism. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From megaquark at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 23:37:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:37:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report References: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Much of the US is almost guaranteed safe > from their first WMD shot - and odds are they'll only > have the resources to strike one city." I just hope that they never realize that a low profile target would put more fear in the American population than any high profile target ever could, and that said target is most likely easier. Even right afterwar 9/11 mosot Americans thought "gee, it was only a matetr of time before the WTC was attacked again". Most people still felt pretty safe in their own little low-profile surroundings. Imagine the fear that would be created if a really big college basketball game in middle America was the target. How safe would you feel then? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had > > the worst dreams of my life regarding > > "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - > > nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had > > nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been > > coming intermittently but consistently). > > > > Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? > > Does anyone see any end in sight? > > Even as a grade schooler in the '80s, I looked back on > history and saw Mutually Assured Destruction keeping > us from nuclear war. I see parallels to that here: > Muslim leaders see that American (and by extension > Western) vengeance is not as precise as they would > like, sweeping up some innocents along with those who > assaulted them, and that America's military options > are being stretched thin. (I emphasize the leaders > here, who would be aware of this.) Which makes > turning the Middle East into a glass desert seem like > possibly the only remaining solution that will make > America safe, *if* one of its cities is nuked (or > subject to large-scale biochemical attack, or the > like). The other nuclear powers that can hit the US > might object somewhat, but in the aftermath of such an > attack, and since their own soil wouldn't be touched, > it is unlikely any of them would seriously threaten > MAD if America employed this option. Which, in turn, > comes up with a kind of MAD even now: Muslim leaders > can make sure America is not attacked that way, or... > > And further, if America is attacked, even the > terrorists know where their targets are. Civic pride > might lead you to think your part of America is the > most important, but look at it through the terrorists' > eyes: they all know of Great Satan Bush, but how many > of them have even heard of, say, Silicon Valley? Or > Disneyland? Much of the US is almost guaranteed safe > from their first WMD shot - and odds are they'll only > have the resources to strike one city. > > I rest easy at night, knowing the odds that our > efforts to create a better tomorrow that is proof > against this kind of thing will most likely have the > time they need to suceed. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 23:30:22 2004 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:30:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: About potential targets: > And further, if America is attacked, even the > terrorists know where their targets are. Civic pride > might lead you to think your part of America is the > most important, but look at it through the terrorists' > eyes: they all know of Great Satan Bush, but how many > of them have even heard of, say, Silicon Valley? Or > Disneyland? Much of the US is almost guaranteed safe > from their first WMD shot - and odds are they'll only > have the resources to strike one city. It sounds like you are saying that most terrorists would not have heard of silicon valley or Disneyland. I disagree with this, it would make sense that many of the people planning these attacks are actually incredibly intelligent, and are quite capable of doing research. Although many smaller cells may be ignorant of such targets, higher ups in larger organizations probably are not. Terrorists lately seem to be targeting travelling westerners, especially contractors and engineers of major corporations. Global Guerrillas has an interesting article that explains this strategy, and it's effects pretty well: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/07/target_outsourc.html Basically, to summarize the financial impact alone, neglecting emotional impacts: " The need to protect employees has driven up costs across the board. Approximately 25% of all reconstruction expenditures are now for private security services to protect employees (an impact that will be measured in billions of dollars). Lengthy security procedures severely limit the workday (by up to 1/3) for domestic employees of "Halliburton" companies. Companies are also being forced to offer substantial bonus pay (often exceeding 100% of pay) as a risk-premium entice expatriate employees to work in these areas. Additionally, insurance costs have skyrocketed." -end quote I have read some sources which say that we (the CIA) actually planted the seeds of terrorism when they trained the mujahideen to fight against the soviets. If this is correct, than we gave them many of the concepts of warfare that they are currently using to fight us. Many of these groups are not ragtag untrained fanatics. They are disciplined, calculating fanatics. -jon From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jul 26 00:49:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040726004934.47698.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Swanson wrote: > It sounds like you are saying that most terrorists > would not have > heard of silicon valley or Disneyland. I disagree > with this, it would > make sense that many of the people planning these > attacks are actually > incredibly intelligent, and are quite capable of > doing research. > Although many smaller cells may be ignorant of such > targets, higher > ups in larger organizations probably are not. Yes, *BUT*...the higher-ups need to sell their inferiors, who will actually be sacrificing themselves, on the choice of target. Of course the lower cells could agree on the value of hitting the headquarters of the infidels' military, and many of them had undoubtedly heard of Osama's previous target and thus agreed it would be worthy of finishing off. But the place where the infidels make computers? Eh. The place where the infidels go to have fun? Maybe if it had religious significance, but Disneyland's no holy site (as the terrorists would see it - though doubtless some Americans do in fact ascribe religious significance to it). Don't worry as much about the intelligent enemies as about the idiot fanatics. There are many more of the latter, and they tend not to value their own lives as much. > Terrorists lately seem to be targeting travelling > westerners, > especially contractors and engineers of major > corporations. Because they're convenient targets. The higher-ups can identify important foreigners who are already there; to the lower-downs, one is as easy to kidnap and execute as another, so they're easily persuaded. Targets in other lands take more persuasion. > Many of these groups are not ragtag untrained > fanatics. They are > disciplined, calculating fanatics. The leaders, yes. If we only had the leaders to worry about, 'twould be a mere thorn, pesky but easy to eventually deal with. But the war is ideological, for the hearts and minds of the masses in the Middle East just as much as for the life and limb of our own citizens. To secure the former is to secure the latter; to antagonize the former, even in the name of securing the latter, is most assuredly to merely place the latter at greater risk. Deprive the leaders of new recruits, and we win. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > >"Much of the US is almost guaranteed safe > > from their first WMD shot - and odds are they'll > only > > have the resources to strike one city." > > I just hope that they never realize that a low > profile target would put more > fear in the American population than any high > profile target ever could, and > that said target is most likely easier. They're not doing it first and foremost to strike terror into our hearts. They're doing it first and foremost to promote their own ideology back home. They care little for the masses who wept worldwide after 9/11; their target audience is, for example, the Palestinians who celebrated when the WTC collapsed. Low-profile targets won't impress that audience, and they know it. Which suggests one grisly solution: post snipers in villages all over the Middle East, let the terrorists attack again, and massacre anyone who parties in one quick wave before word of the sniping can spread. Intent: silence the voices who say this kind of thing is good. But while the scale of the solution is what we need, and even if the initial terrorist attack was blood-free - like if the "attack" was nothing but a fake news report that quickly spread - this would not be an acceptable solution, especially since it would risk many enemies slipping through the net and, independently, creating several new recruits for the enemy. We need to find a less bloody, and preferably less coercive, way to as thoroughly ferret out and silence or convert those who promote this sort of holy war. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 01:41:07 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:11:07 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? Message-ID: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, have had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this works? Have google stopped handing out invites? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From extropy at andrewhitchcock.org Mon Jul 26 06:17:54 2004 From: extropy at andrewhitchcock.org (Andrew Hitchcock) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> I've had my account since mid-May. A couple weeks after I opened it, I started getting a few invites per week. Then, one day, I had five new invites for my account. Two days later I had five more! I have heard that they were trying to bring down the prices on eBay so no one would sell them. About a month ago I stopped receiving any invites. They were having lots of problems at that point (at least my account was) and they were no longer worth selling, so I figure Google had accomplished their mission. Since the big rush stopped a month ago, I have received only two invites. However, I still have one. If you have an address you would like me to send it to, you can e-mail me off list. Andrew > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, have > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jul 26 09:53:22 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:53:22 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: References: <20040725221356.44950.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040726095322.GB1174@leitl.org> On Sun, Jul 25, 2004 at 06:37:05PM -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: > I just hope that they never realize that a low profile target would put more > fear in the American population than any high profile target ever could, and > that said target is most likely easier. Even right afterwar 9/11 mosot If all you have a single nuke, what is your suggestion to keep it from detonating somewhere high in Manhattan? Of course you know about the radiation detectors, check. > Americans thought "gee, it was only a matetr of time before the WTC was > attacked again". Most people still felt pretty safe in their own little > low-profile surroundings. > > Imagine the fear that would be created if a really big college basketball > game in middle America was the target. How safe would you feel then? Imagine the impact on US and world economy and the symbolic value of a leveled Manhattan skyline. --> don't piss people off and/or don't put all your eggs in one basket Remove the incentive to aggregate people in human termite hills. Execs want to exercise control in office space, while being able to talk informally (and off-record) with many of their peers. This is the key vulnerability the society needs to address. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 10:10:03 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:10:03 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> References: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Message-ID: <470a3c520407260310348fe071@mail.gmail.com> I also have a few left. G. From artillo at comcast.net Mon Jul 26 14:16:03 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (artillo at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? Message-ID: <072620041416.26997.4105122300084623000069752200762302010404079B9D0E@comcast.net> I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any invites though and haven't heard anything yet. Artillo > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, have > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara at amara.com Mon Jul 26 14:18:14 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:18:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Space Tourism' COSPAR talk Message-ID: Last week at COSPAR: http://www.copernicus.org/COSPAR/COSPAR.html Patrick Collins gave a very enthusiastic talk about 'space tourism'. His abstract is here: http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/COSPAR04/04373/COSPAR04-A-04373.pdf I was going to write him and ask for details of his talk, but I see that it is essentially reproduced here, at his web site: http://www.spacefuture.com/tourism/tourism.shtml You might like to browse further at www.spacefuture.com as well. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The universe is big: it doesn't fit in one viewgraph." -- Carlos Frenk [showing the VIRGO Consortium Hubble volume simulation] From pfallon at ptd.net Mon Jul 26 15:04:41 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:04:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <005a01c47321$e24b7ed0$90d2bacc@preferrei3lj79> ----- Original Message ----- From: Olga Bourlin To: ExI chat list Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:35 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the worst dreams of my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been coming intermittently but consistently). Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end in sight? Re the 9/11 Commission Report: "The report offers vivid details on our worst fears. Instead of focusing on immediately hitting back at Osama, Bush officials indulged their idiotic id?e fixe on Saddam and ignored the memo from their counter-terrorism experts dismissing any connection between the religious fanatic bin Laden and the secular Hussein." The report by the September 11 commission is missing one obvious way the U.S. government could reduce the chance of another terrorist attack, Libertarians say: Quit meddling in foreign nations. "The intelligence reform needed most right now is a more intelligent foreign policy," says Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik. "Pulling U.S. troops out of nations where they don't belong would make America much safer than appointing a thousand new intelligence czars." Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 15:52:01 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:52:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report References: <20040726004934.47698.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > their target audience is, for example, the > Palestinians who celebrated when the WTC collapsed. > Low-profile targets won't impress that audience, and > they know it. I hadn;t thought of it that way. How about a totally different idea? What if we create and release a virus into the middle east that causes men to lose all their body hair? We can do this in concert with a holographic imageof Allah projected into the sky telling them that they must love and embrace all humans, and will be punished for their wicked ways. They are fighting a different kind of war than we are. Let's pull out the military entriely and mess with their heads. :-) Kevin Freels From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Jul 26 18:48:18 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:48:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry's Comments on Stem Cell Research Message-ID: <288390-220047126184818916@M2W069.mail2web.com> http://salon.com/news/wire/2004/07/26/kerry_stem_cell/index.html "July 26, 2004 | CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) -- Democrat John Kerry said Monday that America needs a president who "believes in science," making a plea for stem cell research that the son of the late President Reagan was highlighting in a speech at the Democratic National Convention." Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jonkc at att.net Mon Jul 26 20:22:04 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:22:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Quantum Computing References: Message-ID: <008701c4734e$460f7d00$b5fe4d0c@hal2001> There is an interesting paper in the July 22 issue of Nature, a UCLA team succeeded in flipping a single electron spin upside down in an ordinary commercial transistor chip, and detected that the current changes when the electron flips. Hong Wen Jiang, a UCLA professor of physics and member of the California NanoSystems Institute, in whose laboratory the experiments were conducted said: "Our research demonstrates that an ordinary transistor, the kind used in a desktop PC or cell phone, can be adapted for practical quantum computing, The research makes quantum computing closer and more practical. I would not be surprised one day to see a quantum computer built, based almost entirely on silicon technology. Eli Yablonovitch, co-author of the Nature paper said: "We've done this with a commercial silicon integrated circuit chip, literally off a shelf. We've manipulated one spin, a year from now, manipulating a single spin might be all in a day's work, and in 10 years, perhaps it will have a commercial role. With 100 transistors, each containing one of these electrons, you could have the implicit information storage that corresponds to all of the hard disks made in the world this year, multiplied by the number of years the universe has been around. And why stop with 100 transistors?" John K Clark From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 00:06:58 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] test Message-ID: Please ignore -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vanmojo at msn.com Tue Jul 27 04:29:55 2004 From: vanmojo at msn.com (Michael Howell) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:29:55 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? Message-ID: >Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck transhumanist. I meant not everyone in Arkansas is an uncultured redneck. :-) >_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 06:32:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:02:13 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <470a3c520407260310348fe071@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> <470a3c520407260310348fe071@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04072623323bba3a54@mail.gmail.com> I've got the invite from Andrew, so that's fine (thanks again Andrew). Giulio, It looks as though Artillo might want one. Generally, if anyone is finding the invites jus cluttering up their inbox, then please consider throwing them my way rather than chucking them out. I've got a few people who I'd like to evangelise gmail to, and some invites would come in handy. Personally, I just looooove gmail, but it may be that the way I use email is just particularly conducive to gmailing (lots of email lists, very seldom using attachments, using lots of different machines which makes web mail very attractive, wanting an online knowledgebase which gmail is becoming very rapidly). Emlyn On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:10:03 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I also have a few left. > G. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From scerir at libero.it Tue Jul 27 08:15:13 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:15:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Lighting A Quantum Candle On The Nature of Reality References: <20040724114830.12304.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001601c473b1$d86b41d0$a5c71b97@administxl09yj> > Quantum particle entanglement > is the closest thing to true > Harry-Potter-style magic > we know of today. > Any increase in our current > paltry knowledge of how this works > has the potential to revolutionize > our understanding of the nature > of reality. It seems to me that here too (entanglement) is going on the old debate about the nature of "psi": "it" or "bit"? Imagine you have two atoms: A and B, situated in distant locations, both in an excited state |0>. These atoms may both decay to the state |1>, due to spontaneous emission, producing one photon. An unfocused detector is placed at half way, between the two atoms. After some time the dectector clicks. But we cannot distinguish from which atom the detected photon came. We have thus produced this atom-entangled state: |psi> = 2^(-1/2) [|0>_A |1>_B + e^(i phi)|1>_A |0>_B] where phi is a fixed phase. (Atoms are entangled here, not photons). The point here is the impossibility to determine which atom emitted the photon ("indistinguishability"). Actually the production of entangled states not just during emissions, but also during detections is possible, even usual now. So, as you can see from the above, "entanglement" is more on the "bit" side, than on the "it" side. s. "A quantum possibility is more real than a classical possibility, but less real than a classical reality." - Boris Tsilerson "It has been argued that quantum mechanics is not locally causal and cannot be embedded in a locally causal theory. That conclusion depends on treating certain experimental parameters, typically the orientations of polarization filters, as free variables. But it might be that this apparent freedom is illusory. Perhaps experimental parameters and experimental results are both consequences, or partially so, of some common hidden mechanism. Then the apparent non-locality could be simulated." - John Bell, "Free Variables and Local Causality", 'Epistemological Letters', 15, (1977) From dwish at indco.net Tue Jul 20 18:00:19 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:00:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200407271711.i6RHBES9032570@br549.indconet.com> Michael, Where is AR are you located. Contact me off-list. Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA Arkansas ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Michael Howell Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:08 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Any transhumanists in AR? >Understatement. I have never met an uncultured redneck transhumanist. I meant not everyone in Arkansas is an uncultured redneck. :-) >_______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dwish at indco.net Tue Jul 20 18:07:25 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:07:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN In-Reply-To: <288390-220047126184818916@M2W069.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <200407271722.i6RHMNS9001564@br549.indconet.com> Has anyone read this before? http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/papers/biomim.html [Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks] From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 27 18:35:24 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040727183524.91694.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > What if we create and release a virus into the > middle east that causes men > to lose all their body hair? We can do this in > concert with a holographic > imageof Allah projected into the sky telling them > that they must love and > embrace all humans, and will be punished for their > wicked ways. > > They are fighting a different kind of war than we > are. Let's pull out the > military entriely and mess with their heads. :-) This is the kind of thinking that's needed, although that specific idea has problems. For one, the virus would spread beyond the Middle East, probably through most of the world - and much of the world would rightly view the "punishment" as America's fault (even if it only targetted people of Middle Eastern descent - there are American citizens of said ethnicity who wouldn't mind seeing Jerusalem destroyed, for example). For another, those ME-ers with any education would quickly point out to the rest that it's not Allah but America who did this, which many of them would want to believe even if it wasn't true. Now, the hologram and voice by itself, if those who produced the recording took great care to get the details right (as opposed to, say, spy agencies who can't be bothered to recruit even the most sympathetic locals in regions of high national interest) might have a good effect, even without any direct material corrolary. It is already the case that Iraqi moderates are pointing out how fundamentalists are, through their attacks on other Iraqis and their infrastructure, doing more harm to Iraq than to the Westerners they claim to target. It's a simple step to claim this is one mechanism of Allah's punishment, and that simply stopping the "holy" war would quickly end it. (Indeed, some - including me - say that this kind of thing was originally blamed on God for the benefit of those deemed, rightly or wrongly, unable to conceive of their own responsibility for the harm they inflicted, and that this was one of the reasons for religion in the first place. Whether or not most people these days have enough sense that they no longer need religion to figure out that things like unlimited revenge cycles, atrocities in the name of noble causes, and so forth almost always wind up doing more harm than good, is another question.) From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 19:29:36 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:29:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN Message-ID: <241420-220047227192936284@M2W032.mail2web.com> From: Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks dwish at indco.net Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:07:25 -0500 To: natashavita at earthlink.net, extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN Has anyone read this before? http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/papers/biomim.html [Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks] Thanks for the link. Interesting reading. The last paragraph caught my eye. Here Hugo says, "...I foresee a major war between two human groups, the "Cosmists", who will favor building artilects, for whom such an activity is a science-compatible religion, and the big-picture destiny of the human species - and the "Terrans"..." The same ideological conflict idea has been stated many times by many of us, but using different "titles/names" for the two disparaging groups. Primo Posthuman will be addressing this in 2005. Best, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 27 21:49:46 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] X-Prize claim attempt scheduled for 9/29 Message-ID: <20040727214946.26601.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.wtov9.com/technology/3583771/detail.html The second half of it may happen on 10/4, depending on the results of the first half. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jul 27 22:05:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] X-Prize claim attempt scheduled for 9/29 In-Reply-To: <20040727214946.26601.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040727220556.48490.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > http://www.wtov9.com/technology/3583771/detail.html > > The second half of it may happen on 10/4, depending > on the results of the first half. ...I know I only sent that once. Anyone know why it appeared twice? From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jul 27 23:02:13 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:02:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] X-Prize claim attempt scheduled for 9/29 In-Reply-To: <20040727220556.48490.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040727220556.48490.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting. I only received it once. And I see it only once in the archives, unless you sent it ages ago as well as today. MB On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > http://www.wtov9.com/technology/3583771/detail.html > > > > The second half of it may happen on 10/4, depending > > on the results of the first half. > > ...I know I only sent that once. Anyone know why it > appeared twice? From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Jul 27 23:49:41 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:49:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ References: Message-ID: <017c01c47434$62c3d860$55aa1218@Nano> The Nanogirl News~ July 27, 2004 Indian technology fund gets $400,000 World Bank grant. A private Indian equity company that invests in high technology ventures said Thursday it has received a grant of $400,000 from the World Bank to support up-and-coming companies in developing nations...Most of the companies will be in India, but some will be in other developing countries. "This is the first time the World Bank has invested in a private firm in India," Narasimhan said...Indiaco has raised $7 million to provide initial funding for entrepreneurs in information technology, biotechnology, nanotechnology and energy sectors. (HindustanTimes.com 7/15/04) http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5983_888612,00430001.htm IBM claims nano-scale imaging breakthrough. IBM has claimed a breakthrough in nano-scale magnetic resonance imaging by directly detecting for the first time a faint magnetic signal from single electrons buried inside solid samples. The company said that the development represents a major milestone in the creation of a microscope that can make three-dimensional images of molecules with atomic resolution. (Whatpc 7/16/04) http://www.whatpc.co.uk/News/1156683 Scientists support Prince on nanotech. Tough new rules must be brought in to guard against dangers to health and the environment from nanotechnology, Britain's top scientific and engineering bodies will conclude this week. A weighty new joint report by the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering will also urge ministers and scientists to adopt a much more open approach to the public over the technology than it has over GM. The report, to be published on Thursday, marks an abrupt change of attitude by the Royal Society, which has been one of the principal cheerleaders for genetically modified crops and foods, and demonstrates how severely the scientific establishment has been shaken by successful public resistance to them. It also largely vindicates Prince Charles who, in an exclusive article for The Independent on Sunday two weeks ago, warned of the risks of the technology... (Independent 7/25/04) http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/environment/story.jsp?story=544416 The promise and perils of the nanotech revolution. Possibilities range from disaster to advances in medicine, space...But there have also been warnings of nano-machines that might race out of control, mass-replicating like bacteria and reducing Earth's surface into what a few nanotechnologists call a "gray goo." Few experts take that scenario seriously, but in recent months, the less frightening potential health and environmental impacts of nano-gadgets have drawn increasing attention. The possibility that one type of nanotech -- large carbon molecules called fullerenes -- damages fish brains is described in this month's issue of Environmental Health Perspectives. (San Francisco Chronicle 7/26/04) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/26/MNG767SUKB1.DTL Betting big on nanotech. Nanosys IPO priced at a sales ratio not seen since dot-com era. Nanosys Inc., an early-stage nanotechnology company, is going public at a price that suggests investors are willing to bet heavily on the relatively unproven field. In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Nanosys said it will price its 6.25 million IPO shares between $15 and $17 each. At that price range, the offering could raise as much as $106 million and, because Nanosys will have nearly 22 million shares outstanding after the IPO, give the Palo Alto company a total market value as high as $371 million. (SFGate 7/16/04) http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/07/16/BUGOJ7MAI11.DTL It's a small world. A hushed office in Building 8 at MIT stands at the cutting edge of small things. Newly minted PhD Tim Hanlon, 27, points to a device called the nano-indenter, and remarks, "Experiment after experiment, it never fails to amaze me . . . and I've been working here for 4 years." A nanometer is one-billionth of a meter. For most of history, such minute distances, the scale where atoms lurk, have been invisible to humans, even though all activity in the physical world really begins there. The nano-indenter contains a tiny diamond tip that can detect the resistance and friction between atoms at the nano-level. Hanlon and his boss, MIT professor Subra Suresh, often prod the tip into various materials -- copper and steels, for example -- to determine how they might be engineered at the nano-level to become stronger and more resilient. (The Boston Globe 7/26/04) http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/26/its_a_small_world/ (Book Review) Nanotech Goes Hollywood. A blockbuster in book form, Nano is both entertaining and annoyingly implausible...Reading John Marlow's Nano feels like watching a Hollywood blockbuster, and this is no coincidence. Not only has Marlow turned Nano into a screenplay that is likely to become a movie, he notes in the acknowledgements that suggestions on the screenplay were subsequently incorporated into the novel. Like many blockbusters, Nano tries to distract readers with weapons of mass entertainment while glossing over logic and plot flaws that are far from nanoscale. And so, while the book is engaging and introduces people to nanotech and its implications, it's also full of annoying improbabilities that will likely prevent those in the know from enjoying the action. (Better Humans 7/23/04) http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Reviews/Book_Reviews/Fiction_Reviews/review.aspx?articleID=2004-07-23-1 Evolution's next stage? Transhumanists explore ways to overcome the physical and psychological limitations of the body. Thousands of years ago a primitive man or woman, huddled in a squalid cave, struck sparks from a stone and created fire. The result was so successful that manipulating the environment to meet human needs became the norm, turning night into day with artificial lighting, taming the inhospitable effects of weather, and creating devices that reduced daily drudgery to mere minutes of work. (The Star 7/25/04) http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1090707008589&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467 Emergency Filtration Products to Commence Nano-Enhanced Filter Media Tests for U.S. Air Force Under the Direction of the U.S. Army RDE Command. Emergency Filtration Products Inc. (EFP) (OTCBB: EMFP) announces that it will commence testing its licensed nanotechnology-enhanced 2H filter media in conjunction with the U.S. Air Force in mid-August 2004. This proprietary enhancement encompasses the integration of filter media with various types of nanotechnology solutions for the detection of, and protection from, biological, chemical, radiological and explosive agents. (Business Wire 7/15/04) http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20040715005721&newsLang=en Molecular Imaging Wins R+D Award for AFM Tool. Molecular Imaging is an R&D 100 Awards winner for its new PicoTREC. The awards are sponsored by R&D Magazine and recognize the top 100 products introduced into the marketplace during the year. PicoTREC is the only commercially available instrument to add real-time, simultaneous topography and recognition imaging capability to the atomic force microscope (AFM). A breakthrough tool for AFM, PicoTREC allows researchers to pursue new avenues of discovery in all areas of nanotechnology and nanoscience. (Azonano 7/15/04) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=227 USC scientist invents technique to grow superconducting and magnetic 'nanocables'. Chongwu Zhou, an assistant professor in the USC Viterbi School of Engineering's Department of Electrical Engineering, is creating dense arrays of ultrafine wires made of magnesium oxide (MgO), each coated with uniform, precisely controlled layers of TMO. In the last decade, TMOs have come under intense investigation because they demonstrate a wide range of potentially highly useful properties including high-temperature superconductivity. Because of the great potential for applications and research, investigators have tried for years to create TMO nanowires, but have so far had limited success. "But now we can supply a group of previously unavailable materials to the nanotechnology community," Zhou said. (PhysOrg 7/15/04) http://www.physorg.com/news386.html The Nanotechnology Industry, an estimated $961 million for FY 2004. Research and Markets announces the addition of this new report entitled "U.S. Market & Industry Nanotechnology R&D and Marketing 2004" to its offerings...Financial trends also show accelerating interest in nanotechnology despite lingering effects of the US recession in 2001. In 2003, a year when a 20-year US unemployment record was breached, the value of a publicly traded venture capital firm that specializes in nanotechnology investments rose from less than $3.00 per share to more than $15.00 per share, beating the S&P 500 by some 400% (Harris & Harris NASDAQ:TINY). The year 2003 also saw some $304 million in venture capital funding for nanotechnology, a 42% increase over 2002. Although this represents a small portion of total venture capital funding, just over 3%, it is an increase over the 2% fraction in 2002. (PressWorld 7/15/04) http://technology.press-world.com/v/63489.html Singapore scientists find new way to use animal bones for human implants. Singapore scientists have found a new way to process animal bones, and turn them into scaffolds that are as good as natural bones which can be implanted directly into patients. Inexpensive and easily available, this bone material could soon replace existing material now used for bone repair. This pig's bone was once part of Dr Mao Pei-Lin's soup stock for her son. But it is now the bio-engineering scientist's research material. In the past, surgeons repaired broken bones by grafting human or animal bones that have been cleaned and purified with solvents under extreme high temperature. The problem with this process is - it is expensive, and the high temperature could change the original chemical components and structure of the bone. Another problem - the solvents used are also highly toxic and not easily removed. To overcome these problems, scientists at the Institute of Bio-engineering and Nanotechnology first treat the bone with mild solvents. (Channelnewsasia 7/24/04) http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/97369/1/.html The rise of 'Digital People'. Tales about artificial beings have sparked fascination and fear for centuries; now the tales are turning into reality. The scientists and engineers spearheading the creation of artificial beings and bionic people are responding to the magnetism of the technological imperative, the pull of a scientific problem as challenging as any imaginable...Some researchers now think the Turing test is not a definitive measure of machine intelligence. Yet it still carries weight, and now, for the first time in history, the means might be at hand to make beings that pass that test and others. Advances in a host of areas-digital electronics and computational technology, artificial intelligence (AI), nanotechnology, molecular biology, and materials science, among others - enable the creation of beings that act and look human. (MSNBC 7/13/04) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5386726/ Rice university CBEN wins grant for undergraduate nanotech course. Class will present technical aspects alongside analysis of societal impacts. The Center for Biological and Environmental Nanotechnology at Rice University today announced the award of a $100,000 grant from the National Science Foundation to develop the first introductory nanotechnology class to be offered at Rice University, a research-intensive institution known worldwide for its excellence in nanotechnology research. The course, titled " Nanotechnology: Content and Context," will be offered jointly by the departments of chemistry and anthropology this fall. (Rice University 7/26/04) http://media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=4833&SnID=524933860 DoD spending bill includes nanotechnology funds. Congress approved funding this week included in a military appropriations bill to continue nanotechnology research at the University of Oregon...The funding includes $2.5 million for research on developing environmentally-friendly nanotechnology materials and manufacturing processes and $2.5 million for development of miniaturized energy systems with broad applications, the university said. (EETimes 7/23/04) http://www.eetimes.com/at/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=25600219 (lengthy coverage of what nano is and the market analysis) Is Nanotechnology for Real? Which companies will make the most of this field? So far, one has used nano-development to improve drug delivery -- boosting its stock price. But investors searching for commercial value from hundreds of other companies looking to improve products through this science will start down a long road. (Motley Fool 7/23/04) http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2004/commentary04072305.htm Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From artillo at comcast.net Wed Jul 28 02:17:49 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:17:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04072623323bba3a54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004001c47449$1773dbc0$49635544@bjsmain2> Hey thanks! That would be awesome if I could get hooked up, eh Giulio??! :) Arti -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 2:32 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? I've got the invite from Andrew, so that's fine (thanks again Andrew). Giulio, It looks as though Artillo might want one. Generally, if anyone is finding the invites jus cluttering up their inbox, then please consider throwing them my way rather than chucking them out. I've got a few people who I'd like to evangelise gmail to, and some invites would come in handy. Personally, I just looooove gmail, but it may be that the way I use email is just particularly conducive to gmailing (lots of email lists, very seldom using attachments, using lots of different machines which makes web mail very attractive, wanting an online knowledgebase which gmail is becoming very rapidly). Emlyn On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:10:03 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I also have a few left. > G. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jul 28 03:22:02 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:22:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20040725111303.03402f00@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <000f01c47452$0db67c60$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Erik Starck" >> At 06:35 2004-07-25 Olga Bourlin wrote: > >Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end > >in sight? > > "International acts of terror in 2003 were the fewest in more than 30 years" > http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/29/terror.report/index.html Be that as it may (or may not), there's another problem with Bush (which he shares with some of those very terrorists): religiosity. Bob Woodward has said about George W. Bush: "Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, 'He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.' And then he said, 'There's a higher Father that I appeal to.'" "Beyond not asking his father about going to war, Woodward was startled to learn that the president did not ask key cabinet members either." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml And then this ...: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=7592 I've heard that George Bush may not actually be as religious as he makes out (I have no idea) - but if that's true, is Bush "putting it on" because he thinks Americans are really *that* stupid? Where is the hue and cry? Olga From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Jul 28 04:06:47 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:06:47 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN In-Reply-To: <200407271722.i6RHMNS9001564@br549.indconet.com> References: <200407271722.i6RHMNS9001564@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <1090987607.16851.128.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Tue, 2004-07-20 at 13:07 -0500, Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > Has anyone read this before? > http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/papers/biomim.html > [Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks] Yes. ETAs have been slipping for a while now. From his latest stuff, it sounds like he's given up on the big brain idea (for now), and is going to try using PCs. alejandro From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 07:16:07 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:16:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040724015574532b34@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040724015574532b34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040728001659035e4e@mail.gmail.com> This is sickening. It was bad enough the so-called 911 Commission failed to address many of the most pressing questions of what happened and why on 911. That and the very fact it was postponed until years after the original event was bad enough and more than sufficient to show this was not any sort of honest examination. But to now posit an ideological war as being largely the "why" of terrorism and hardly bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger throughout the region says that this Commission was a political puppet of the current adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. -s On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:25:06 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > An interesting article on the US's troubles with Islam, from NYT. > I've included the whole thing, and here's the link (but you'll need to > be registered): > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/24/opinion/24brooks.html?th > > War of Ideology > By DAVID BROOKS > > Published: July 24, 2004 > > When foreign policy wonks go to bed, they dream of being X. They dream > of writing the all-encompassing, epoch-defining essay, the way George > F. Kennan did during the cold war under the pseudonym X. > > Careers have been spent racing to be X. But in our own time, the 9/11 > commission has come closer than anybody else. After spending 360 pages > describing a widespread intelligence failure, the commissioners step > back in their report and redefine the nature of our predicament. > > We're not in the middle of a war on terror, they note. We're not > facing an axis of evil. Instead, we are in the midst of an ideological > conflict. > > We are facing, the report notes, a loose confederation of people who > believe in a perverted stream of Islam that stretches from Ibn Taimaya > to Sayyid Qutb. Terrorism is just the means they use to win converts > to their cause. > > It seems like a small distinction - emphasizing ideology instead of > terror - but it makes all the difference, because if you don't define > your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory. > > When you see that our enemies are primarily an intellectual movement, > not a terrorist army, you see why they are in no hurry. With their > extensive indoctrination infrastructure of madrassas and mosques, > they're still building strength, laying the groundwork for decades of > struggle. Their time horizon can be totally different from our own. > > As an ideological movement rather than a national or military one, > they can play by different rules. There is no territory they must > protect. They never have to win a battle but can instead profit in the > realm of public opinion from the glorious martyrdom entailed in their > defeats. We think the struggle is fought on the ground, but they know > the struggle is really fought on satellite TV, and they are far more > sophisticated than we are in using it. > > The 9/11 commission report argues that we have to fight this war on > two fronts. We have to use intelligence, military, financial and > diplomatic capacities to fight Al Qaeda. That's where most of the > media attention is focused. But the bigger fight is with a hostile > belief system that can't be reasoned with but can only be "destroyed > or utterly isolated." > > The commissioners don't say it, but the implication is clear. We've > had an investigation into our intelligence failures; we now need a > commission to analyze our intellectual failures. Simply put, the > unapologetic defenders of America often lack the expertise they need. > And scholars who really know the Islamic world are often blind to its > pathologies. They are so obsessed with the sins of the West, they are > incapable of grappling with threats to the West. > > We also need to mount our own ideological counteroffensive. The > commissioners recommend that the U.S. should be much more critical of > autocratic regimes, even friendly ones, simply to demonstrate our > principles. They suggest we set up a fund to build secondary schools > across Muslim states, and admit many more students into our own. If > you are a philanthropist, here is how you can contribute: We need to > set up the sort of intellectual mobilization we had during the cold > war, with modern equivalents of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, to > give an international platform to modernist Muslims and to introduce > them to Western intellectuals. > > Most of all, we need to see that the landscape of reality is altered. > In the past, we've fought ideological movements that took control of > states. Our foreign policy apparatus is geared toward relations with > states: negotiating with states, confronting states. Now we are faced > with a belief system that is inimical to the state system, and aims at > theological rule and the restoration of the caliphate. We'll need a > new set of institutions to grapple with this reality, and a new > training method to understand people who are uninterested in national > self-interest, traditionally defined. > > Last week I met with a leading military officer stationed in > Afghanistan and Iraq, whose observations dovetailed remarkably with > the 9/11 commissioners. He said the experience of the last few years > is misleading; only 10 percent of our efforts from now on will be > military. The rest will be ideological. He observed that we are in the > fight against Islamic extremism now where we were in the fight against > communism in 1880. > > We've got a long struggle ahead, but at least we're beginning to understand it. > > E-mail: dabrooks at nytimes.com > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 28 07:43:43 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:43:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN In-Reply-To: <1090987607.16851.128.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <200407271722.i6RHMNS9001564@br549.indconet.com> <1090987607.16851.128.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728024019.01ee5a88@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > > > Has anyone read this before? > > > http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/papers/biomim.html > >Yes. ETAs have been slipping for a while now. And of course that paper is already way out of date; it ends: < Prof. Dr. Hugo de Garis was head of the Brain Builder Group at ATR Labs in Kyoto, Japan, from 1993 until February 2000. Since then he is continuing the same work at STARLAB, in Brussels, Belgium. (http://www.starlab.org). > But Starlab closed down and dispersed quite a while back. Doesn't mean the abstract generalities are worthless, though, although De Garis's anxieties should be well known to folks on this list. Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 28 08:58:12 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:58:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN In-Reply-To: <1090987607.16851.128.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <200407271722.i6RHMNS9001564@br549.indconet.com> <1090987607.16851.128.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20040728085812.GN1174@leitl.org> On Wed, Jul 28, 2004 at 02:06:47PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > Yes. ETAs have been slipping for a while now. From his latest stuff, > it sounds like he's given up on the big brain idea (for now), and is > going to try using PCs. For time being, you can't beat the price/performance ratio of PC clusters. Dedicated hardware has a high entry threshold, and only makes a difference in a few niches. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 09:50:15 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <000f01c47452$0db67c60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040728095015.13579.qmail@web60501.mail.yahoo.com> > > I've heard that George Bush may not actually be as > religious as he makes out > (I have no idea) - but if that's true, is Bush > "putting it on" because he > thinks Americans are really *that* stupid? > > Where is the hue and cry? > > Olga Actually I think he means it. Since he has claimed that "being a born again xtian is the only thing that has allowed him to give up his booze and cocaine habit. The alternative is that he is lying about that too and he has his finger on "the button" while he is loaded. That is even more worrisome if one is the worrying type. No I think he means it. He does really belive that he has some divine destiny to fight a "crusade" against the muslims, why else would he engage them in a "holy war" on their own level instead of thinking out of the box? It is the karma of the fanatic to incite opposing fanatics. Ironically, I believe he suffers from the very same narcissistic delusions that Mohammed did. That he was chosen by god to fight against the infidels. Fundamentalists are scary no matter what their religion is. But I refuse to worry, I will vote against him and hope he doesn't somehow cheat his way into a second term. After all if Ronald Reagan Jr. is campaigning against him, how can he hope to keep his conservative base? Mobilize the ignorant to vote for him? No... it will be dirty tricks or he is out in November. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 10:40:08 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] terrorism solutions? Message-ID: <20040728104008.7640.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> The more I think about it, the more I see the complicity of the media in terrorism. Terrorism needs the media in order to prosper. The news is like a role call of glory for martyrs. I think that if terrorism reporting were handled differently, martyrdom would quickly become much less appealing to new recruits of the terrorist organizations. First off I believe that media coverage of successful acts of terrorism should be downplayed to the level of ordinary violent crimes. The families of victims should be notified privately and the names of the organizations and individuals responsible should never be mentioned in the news even if it is known by officials. Successful terrorist acts should mere sound bites and not "breaking news". What should be emphasised as "breaking news" are failed terrorist attempts where the would be terrorists undergo public humiliation (perhaps even culturally specific- like being shaved and made to wear a dress or being fed only pork while being forced to wallow in a pig pen) on TV before they are punished by conventional means. Something like the stocks or pillories in the town square of old. They should be laughed at and not made out to be scary powerful people. This is a war of memes after all. The idea being to reduce the rewards of success and upping the ante on getting caught. (Death being preferable to dishonor for these "holy warriors".) Make them look foolish for what they are doing and they will stop doing it. After all martyrdom is not a long term sustainable strategy anyways as it doesn't promote the survival of those that carry its memes. If we reduce the percieved appeal of the meme i.e. everlasting glory in paradise if they succeed, versus prison or death if they don't changed to anomynity if they succeed versus humiliation and muslim sin if they don't. As long as the meme doesn't spread faster than the martyrs can kill themselves, it will burn itself out like an ebola outbreak. Every time one of them gets caught, our women should be dancing brazenly in the streets in bikinis and thong underwear. On a lighter note... check out http://www.jibjab.com ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dwish at indco.net Wed Jul 21 13:18:47 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:18:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN In-Reply-To: <20040728085812.GN1174@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200407281222.i6SCMSS9025826@br549.indconet.com> If you look at the advancements in 64 bit processors such as the new AMD Opteron 64 processors they amaze and surpass the rest. The fastest supercomputer in the world is running SuSE ES 8 in Japan for the AIST with 1,058 eServer 325 systems with 2,636 processors, all AMD Opterons. It can perform 11 trillion calculations per second. One hell of a Doom server...lol Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA Arkansas ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:58 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] AN ARTIFICIAL BRAIN On Wed, Jul 28, 2004 at 02:06:47PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > Yes. ETAs have been slipping for a while now. From his latest stuff, > it sounds like he's given up on the big brain idea (for now), and is > going to try using PCs. For time being, you can't beat the price/performance ratio of PC clusters. Dedicated hardware has a high entry threshold, and only makes a difference in a few niches. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net From jon.swanson at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 13:38:35 2004 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:38:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04072623323bba3a54@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> <470a3c520407260310348fe071@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04072623323bba3a54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:02:13 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > gmail, but it may be that the way I use email is just particularly > conducive to gmailing (lots of email lists, very seldom using > attachments, using lots of different machines which makes web mail > very attractive, wanting an online knowledgebase which gmail is > becoming very rapidly). I really like gmail's interface and capabilities, and would like to use it in a similar way. Would you mind suggesting any mailing lists that are as interesting as extropy? From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 15:09:59 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:09:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology References: <710b78fc040724015574532b34@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e040728001659035e4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree that this commission was a political puppet, but not of the administration. I sat and watched these hearings and they were just full of bitterness and attacks at the administration. This commission was brought forth in an election year by the opposing party in order to discredit Bush and decrease his chances of reelection. This is why the commission wasn;t put together until years after the event. Some of the questioning was so rediculous that it started to appear as a replay of the McCarthy hearings. They could care less about figuring out what went wrong. They just wanted to attack the Bush administration. If they really were after the truth, as you said, they would have address US foreign policy. Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology > This is sickening. It was bad enough the so-called 911 Commission > failed to address many of the most pressing questions of what happened > and why on 911. That and the very fact it was postponed until years > after the original event was bad enough and more than sufficient to > show this was not any sort of honest examination. But to now posit an > ideological war as being largely the "why" of terrorism and hardly > bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger throughout the region > says that this Commission was a political puppet of the current > adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > -s > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:25:06 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > An interesting article on the US's troubles with Islam, from NYT. > > I've included the whole thing, and here's the link (but you'll need to > > be registered): > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/24/opinion/24brooks.html?th > > > > War of Ideology > > By DAVID BROOKS > > > > Published: July 24, 2004 > > > > When foreign policy wonks go to bed, they dream of being X. They dream > > of writing the all-encompassing, epoch-defining essay, the way George > > F. Kennan did during the cold war under the pseudonym X. > > > > Careers have been spent racing to be X. But in our own time, the 9/11 > > commission has come closer than anybody else. After spending 360 pages > > describing a widespread intelligence failure, the commissioners step > > back in their report and redefine the nature of our predicament. > > > > We're not in the middle of a war on terror, they note. We're not > > facing an axis of evil. Instead, we are in the midst of an ideological > > conflict. > > > > We are facing, the report notes, a loose confederation of people who > > believe in a perverted stream of Islam that stretches from Ibn Taimaya > > to Sayyid Qutb. Terrorism is just the means they use to win converts > > to their cause. > > > > It seems like a small distinction - emphasizing ideology instead of > > terror - but it makes all the difference, because if you don't define > > your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory. > > > > When you see that our enemies are primarily an intellectual movement, > > not a terrorist army, you see why they are in no hurry. With their > > extensive indoctrination infrastructure of madrassas and mosques, > > they're still building strength, laying the groundwork for decades of > > struggle. Their time horizon can be totally different from our own. > > > > As an ideological movement rather than a national or military one, > > they can play by different rules. There is no territory they must > > protect. They never have to win a battle but can instead profit in the > > realm of public opinion from the glorious martyrdom entailed in their > > defeats. We think the struggle is fought on the ground, but they know > > the struggle is really fought on satellite TV, and they are far more > > sophisticated than we are in using it. > > > > The 9/11 commission report argues that we have to fight this war on > > two fronts. We have to use intelligence, military, financial and > > diplomatic capacities to fight Al Qaeda. That's where most of the > > media attention is focused. But the bigger fight is with a hostile > > belief system that can't be reasoned with but can only be "destroyed > > or utterly isolated." > > > > The commissioners don't say it, but the implication is clear. We've > > had an investigation into our intelligence failures; we now need a > > commission to analyze our intellectual failures. Simply put, the > > unapologetic defenders of America often lack the expertise they need. > > And scholars who really know the Islamic world are often blind to its > > pathologies. They are so obsessed with the sins of the West, they are > > incapable of grappling with threats to the West. > > > > We also need to mount our own ideological counteroffensive. The > > commissioners recommend that the U.S. should be much more critical of > > autocratic regimes, even friendly ones, simply to demonstrate our > > principles. They suggest we set up a fund to build secondary schools > > across Muslim states, and admit many more students into our own. If > > you are a philanthropist, here is how you can contribute: We need to > > set up the sort of intellectual mobilization we had during the cold > > war, with modern equivalents of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, to > > give an international platform to modernist Muslims and to introduce > > them to Western intellectuals. > > > > Most of all, we need to see that the landscape of reality is altered. > > In the past, we've fought ideological movements that took control of > > states. Our foreign policy apparatus is geared toward relations with > > states: negotiating with states, confronting states. Now we are faced > > with a belief system that is inimical to the state system, and aims at > > theological rule and the restoration of the caliphate. We'll need a > > new set of institutions to grapple with this reality, and a new > > training method to understand people who are uninterested in national > > self-interest, traditionally defined. > > > > Last week I met with a leading military officer stationed in > > Afghanistan and Iraq, whose observations dovetailed remarkably with > > the 9/11 commissioners. He said the experience of the last few years > > is misleading; only 10 percent of our efforts from now on will be > > military. The rest will be ideological. He observed that we are in the > > fight against Islamic extremism now where we were in the fight against > > communism in 1880. > > > > We've got a long struggle ahead, but at least we're beginning to understand it. > > > > E-mail: dabrooks at nytimes.com > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 28 16:40:40 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] No more minor parents? Message-ID: <20040728164041.56963.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Thinking about what Bill Cosby has been saying of late, I had an idea for a law. I am uncertain whether it would be appropriate - while it's a prime example of the state meddling in personal affairs and of legislating morality, it seems perhaps justified by the evidence to date. Specifically, since almost all child pregnancies are the result of statutory rape, and since very few minors are capable - emotionally, mentally, financially, and in some cases even physically - of supporting a child, if any minor becomes pregnant, that pregnancy would have to either be aborted or given up for adoption immediately after birth. The statute of limitations would be 3 to 5 years, since by that time removing the newborn might do more harm than good. (Various versions might specify abort-only or adopt-only, but there are enough medical and religious arguments there - the most important religious one boiling down to how to practically enforce abort-only upon families who view abortion as murder, to the point that forcing abort-only would practically mean no law in many cases - that the law would achieve the intended effect far better by allowing both, the decision being made on a case-by-case basis.) That's it. No jail time or fines, those being left to other laws to deal with as appropriate. For instance, if a man gets a 12-year-old girl pregnant in the usual manner, that's already rape, and is already punishable by extensive jail time; the pregnancy is simply evidence of the deed so far as prosecuting that offense goes. From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 28 16:51:57 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] terrorism solutions? In-Reply-To: <20040728104008.7640.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040728165157.9039.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > The more I think about it, the more I see the > complicity of the media in terrorism. Terrorism > needs > the media in order to prosper. The news is like a > role > call of glory for martyrs. Especially their home news channels, which they watch and we can't control. (Yes, those of the Middle East do have their own satellite networks - plural. At least one of them have been accused of showing terrorists in a positive light, and there's a reason for that.) > What > should be emphasised as "breaking news" are failed > terrorist attempts where the would be terrorists > undergo public humiliation (perhaps even culturally > specific- like being shaved and made to wear a dress > or being fed only pork while being forced to wallow > in > a pig pen) on TV before they are punished by > conventional means. If the Americans enforced it, they wouldn't care. That'd just be the Americans being Americans. If the Iraqi government enforced it...they can still claim it's the "American puppets", but that argument seems to be carrying less weight these days. > They should be > laughed at and not made out to be scary powerful > people. Your idea has promise, but it needs the right target audience. Not the one that is afraid of them, but the one that wants to be them. Making them be laughed at might be good, although one must make sure to tailor it so that it's their recruiting pool - their fellow Muslims - that's doing the laughing. Don't worry about soothing the American public (though this would be a useful by-product). From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jul 28 16:55:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <948b11e040728001659035e4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > But to now posit an > ideological war as being largely the "why" of > terrorism and hardly > bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger > throughout the region > says that this Commission was a political puppet of > the current > adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. Oh, they mention the policies. That's part of the source of the ideological war. But whatever the cause, the result is still the result - and merely removing the cause won't necessarily fix everything (even if it would help a lot). From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jul 28 18:01:10 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Jul 28 18:26:30 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:26:30 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: (7/28/04 13:01) Damien Broderick wrote: >BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS > >http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 I'm still not sure, upon finishing the article, if this is a joke, wild speculation, or the desparate last-gasp by an increasingly frantic Bush administration. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 19:26:16 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:26:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Unlimited research? Message-ID: Here's a way to make some progress! I wonder if they will try to do the same with nanotech. :-) Singapore Wants You! The future-friendly city-state has an offer bioscientists can't refuse: unrestricted research, top-notch equipment, and limitless funds. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.08/singapore.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Wed Jul 28 21:19:34 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:19:34 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41081866.4080402@paradise.net.nz> Oh it's a joke alright. """ SUMS officers trained in mortal combat and international diplomacy. They were masters of disguise, capable of passing themselves off as immigrants, women, even large animals. They learned how to build explosive devices using ordinary household items like dental floss and MoonPies and knew how to sleep while suspended upside down. """ """ Next for Bush was New Zealand, where he assisted officials with helicopter surveillance of sheep poachers, and then Monaco, where he taught the crown prince's bodyguards how to fire assault rifles while waterskiing in tuxedos. """ Brent Neal wrote: > (7/28/04 13:01) Damien Broderick wrote: > > >>BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS >> >>http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 > > > > I'm still not sure, upon finishing the article, if this is a joke, wild speculation, or the desparate last-gasp by an increasingly frantic Bush administration. > > > B > From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Jul 28 21:30:26 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:30:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <41081866.4080402@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: (7/29/04 9:19) paul.bridger wrote: >Oh it's a joke alright. I wasn't sure if that was hyperbole for effect or not. I think I'm becoming humor-impaired in my old age. :P B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From twodeel at jornada.org Wed Jul 28 23:23:57 2004 From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <41081866.4080402@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, paul.bridger wrote: > Oh it's a joke alright. > And don't forget this, at the end of page three and beginning of page four, which is when I realized it couldn't possibly NOT be a joke: ... Flush with government-supplied money, he persuaded the Chinese premier to supply land and labor and build him the world's largest eight-track-tape factory, on the outskirts of Beijing. Bush supervised the construction personally, often arriving as early as 8:30 A.M. and staying on the job as late as 3 P.M. At this time, Bush also appears to have had some correspondence with his father. A Freedom of Information Act request from GQ to the State Department yielded a 1972 telegram to George H. W. Bush from his son George. Though it is still classified in parts and text is blacked out in several areas, it does seem to confirm W.'s Chinese mission. POPPY: ALL OK HERE. WORK IS [REDACTED]. 8 TRACKS = FUTURE. YOU WOULD LIKE CHEWIN LIE. BUT ASK MOM: WHERE'S MY [REDACTED] UNDERPANTS? THE LAST PAIR [REDACTED]. W. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 23:29:06 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:59:06 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc040725184150a3725@mail.gmail.com> <1220.192.168.1.1.1090822674.squirrel@192.168.1.1> <470a3c520407260310348fe071@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04072623323bba3a54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040728162914c8ba4f@mail.gmail.com> Try here: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com (ie: goto yahoogroups.com, and subscribe to transhumantech. Also say thanks to Eugen!) Emlyn On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:38:35 -0500, Jon Swanson wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:02:13 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > gmail, but it may be that the way I use email is just particularly > > conducive to gmailing (lots of email lists, very seldom using > > attachments, using lots of different machines which makes web mail > > very attractive, wanting an online knowledgebase which gmail is > > becoming very rapidly). > > > I really like gmail's interface and capabilities, and would like to > use it in a similar way. Would you mind suggesting any mailing lists > that are as interesting as extropy? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Thu Jul 29 04:09:02 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:09:02 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4108785E.1040809@paradise.net.nz> Ahh that's so funny. Thanks for the snippet: being young, I cannot read past the first few pages myself for lack of attention span. Don Dartfield wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, paul.bridger wrote: > > >>Oh it's a joke alright. >> > > > And don't forget this, at the end of page three and beginning of page > four, which is when I realized it couldn't possibly NOT be a joke: > > > > ... Flush with government-supplied money, he persuaded the Chinese > premier to supply land and labor and build him the world's largest > eight-track-tape factory, on the outskirts of Beijing. Bush supervised the > construction personally, often arriving as early as 8:30 A.M. and staying > on the job as late as 3 P.M. > > At this time, Bush also appears to have had some correspondence with his > father. A Freedom of Information Act request from GQ to the State > Department yielded a 1972 telegram to George H. W. Bush from his son > George. Though it is still classified in parts and text is blacked out in > several areas, it does seem to confirm W.'s Chinese mission. > > POPPY: > > ALL OK HERE. WORK IS > > [REDACTED]. 8 TRACKS = FUTURE. > > YOU WOULD LIKE CHEWIN LIE. > > BUT ASK MOM: WHERE'S MY > > [REDACTED] UNDERPANTS? THE > > LAST PAIR [REDACTED]. > > W. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 09:02:00 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:02:00 0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? Message-ID: Try wta-talk, sl4 and everything-list (google list names for a subscription interface). Jon Swanson wrote: >I really like gmail's interface and capabilities, and would like to >use it in a similar way. Would you mind suggesting any mailing lists >that are as interesting as extropy? From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 09:42:34 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:42:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <072620041416.26997.4105122300084623000069752200762302010404079B9D0E@comcast.net> References: <072620041416.26997.4105122300084623000069752200762302010404079B9D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <470a3c5204072902424c3cbbc4@mail.gmail.com> I just invited you. G. On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net wrote: > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any invites though and haven't heard anything yet. > > Artillo > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, have > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Jul 29 15:19:01 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:19:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Francis Crick Message-ID: <9EB6BF54-E172-11D8-84E9-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Begin forwarded message: > From: Ned Block > Date: 29 July 2004 16:23:32 GMT+02:00 > To: ASSC-L at LISTSERV.UH.EDU > Subject: Re: Fwd: Francis Crick > Reply-To: n.block at verizon.net > > Francis Crick, 1916 ? 2004 > [] > > > > > > Nobelist, colleagues cracked DNA code > > By Scott LaFee > UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER > > 7:01 a.m. July 29, 2004 > > The man who helped discover the secret of life is dead. > > Francis Crick, who was 88, died last night at Thornton Hospital in San > Diego after a long battle with colon cancer. Along with James Watson, > Crick was best known for discovering the structure of DNA ? the > mysterious molecule that defines and determines every form of life. > > Crick's name became scientific legend in 1953 when he and Watson, then > just 36 and 24 years old, respectively, cracked the DNA code, > revealing the structure and nature of the now-famous double helix of > deoxyribonucleic acid. > > The discovery, reported in the journal Nature, earned the two men the > 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine, which they shared with Maurice Wilkins. > More profoundly, it arguably altered the state of human existence, > inevitably touching almost every aspect of modern life. > > The biotechnology industry, for example, is based largely upon Crick's > and Watson's discovery. So, too, are genetically engineered foods like > bigger tomatoes and innovative medical technologies like gene therapy. > Law enforcement agencies now routinely collect and test DNA from crime > scenes, either to convict the guilty or set the innocent free. Social > issues such as whether to have children are now often affected by > expanded knowledge of DNA and its role in heredity. > > "History will judge him certainly as one of the influential biologists > of the 20th century, if not the most influential," said Richard > Murphy, president of the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La > Jolla, which Crick joined in 1976. > > "He set the standard, not only the importance of the DNA work, he set > the standard for being a true scientist, just totally dedicated to > understanding science and the truth about biology." > > For many years before his death, Crick devoted his scientific life to > understanding the biological foundations of consciousness. > > He had been playing a significant role in the development of a new > research center at Salk that will bear his name. The Crick-Jacobs > Center for Computational and Theoretical Biology, which is also named > for its benefactor, the Joan and Irwin Jacobs family, will study how > genes in human DNA regulate brain activity, as well as how networks of > nerve cells influence the way the brain works. > > "He felt that this was going to be a center with tremendous potential > for understanding the brain," Murphy said, "and he was thrilled with > the planning of that." > > In the beginning, of course, he was just Francis Harry Compton Crick, > born June 8, 1916, in Northampton, England, to Harry Crick, a shoe > factory owner, and Anne Elizabeth Wilkins Crick. Early in life, the > young Crick chose a life in science. His first recorded experiment, at > age 10 or 12, was an attempt to create artificial silk, which failed. > He had more success electrically igniting bottles of a homemade > explosive. His parents eventually ordered him to at least first put > the bottles in pails of water, lest he destroy himself or their home. > > Asked once about how best to teach science in schools, Crick said: > "It's really important to appeal to the imagination. I taught myself a > lot of science when I was a kid because that's the best way in some > ways." > > In 1937, Crick graduated from University College in London with a > bachelor of science degree. His continued studies, however, were > interrupted by World War II, which Crick spent in the British navy. In > 1940, he married Ruth Doreen Dodd. (They were divorced seven years > later.) After the war, he resumed research at Cambridge University in > England, where he earned his Ph.D. in 1954. He married Odile Speed, an > artist, in 1949, and met a visiting American biologist named Watson. > > The names of Crick and Watson are permanently intertwined. Their story > is a sort of literary double helix and the telling of it recalls a > time when science was still pursued by individuals rather than biotech > corporations with acronyms that usually included the letter X. > > Crick and Watson were distinctively different individuals. Crick was > older, English to the core and, according to Watson, something of a > know-it-all physicist. Watson was American, boisterous and, according > to Crick, a biologist prone to Yankee overstatement. Yet somehow, the > two hit it off. In fact, their ability to communicate with each other > was so effective and so profuse that colleagues eventually stuck them > in an office together so they would stop disturbing everyone else. > > Conversation was Crick's and Watson's chief scientific tool. By > talking endlessly and building many models, they solved first the > structure of DNA, a question that had attracted the attention of many > others, including Linus Pauling at Caltech and a group of English > researchers that included Wilkins. > > Crick's and Watson's answer took the shape of a twisting ladder with > backbones of sugar and phosphate atoms and rungs of hydrogen linking > four chemical bases: adenine with thymine, cytosine with guanine. Thus > each single strand of DNA represented a template for the other, a > critical necessity for reproduction. > > When it came time to announce their findings, however, it was the > boisterous Watson who balked. Recalling that time, Crick said Watson > was worried they might be wrong. The less said, the better, he advised > Crick. > > "Jim was very nervous about saying anything," Crick recalled. "And I > said, 'Well, we've got to say something!' Otherwise people will think > these two unknown chaps are so dumb that they don't even realize the > implications of their own work." > > Thus, Crick penned one of the great understatements of literature, > scientific or otherwise, said the journal Science. It was just 900 > words long, not much more than what you've read so far. In the paper, > he wrote: "It has not escaped our notice that the specific pairing we > have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for > the genetic material." > > The illustration for the double helix, now instantly recognizable, was > drawn by Crick's wife, Odile. "I tell her it's her best-known work," > he joked in 1993. "She normally draws nudes." > > Crick was not content to rest on the laurels of his DNA work. In fact, > he mentioned it in public only reluctantly, joking that people never > knew what to say to a Nobel laureate. He was content to reduce DNA > references to his license plate, which read ATCG ? the initials of > adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine. > > While Watson remained in molecular biology, eventually becoming the > longtime director of the respected Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in > New York and first head of the Human Genome Project, Crick chose to > explore the brain, with side trips to outer space and elsewhere. > > In the 1970s, for example, he postulated that Sigmund Freud was wrong > about dreams, that dreams did not possess deep psychological meaning > but rather were simply the result of some middle-of-the-night cerebral > housecleaning, the reshuffling of thoughts and images so that the > memory could store information more efficiently. > > In 1981, Crick wrote "Life Itself," a controversial book that > introduced the theory of "directed panspermia," which suggested that > life on Earth may have been introduced as microorganisms planted by a > more advanced alien civilization. Panspermia means "seeds everywhere." > > The book aroused much comment, some of it caustic, though he noted > repeatedly that directed panspermia was just an hypothesis. > > "In a way, it was probably a mistake to write the book," Crick said in > a 1995 interview. "Not everybody really read it, which if you did > pointed out that directed panspermia was just an idea, something to be > considered. The book was actually quite reserved about the whole > thing. Of course, if you only glanced at it, you could have gotten the > idea that I was a bit nutty." > > Not that he regretted the fuss. Ideas, he said, were the currency of > science. > > "The important thing is that you have lots of ideas and that you learn > most are going to be wrong," he said. "The trick is to figure out > which are the most promising and work on those. A man who is right > every time is not likely to do very much. It's the person with just > one idea who is a menace because he won't give his idea up." > > In 1994, Crick created a new intellectual ruckus by writing "The > Astonishing Hypothesis," in which he and colleague Christof Koch, a > neurobiologist at Caltech, proposed that all manifestations of the > human "soul" ? a person's joys, sorrows, memories, ambitions, sense of > self and free will ? were in fact the result of complex chemical > reactions in the brain. > > "Most people are aware of consciousness," Crick said in a 1993 > interview with The San Diego Union-Tribune. "They can see the > difference. At a crude level, it can be described as what's going on > in your brain when you see something. The real questions are: Which > nerve cells produce this consciousness? How are they firing?" > > Human behavior, he suggested, probably doesn't involve a higher > authority, a mystical god. It is more likely the cumulative effect of > 100 billion interactive neurons and associated molecules. > > Crick was, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Wade, "an > unabashed reductionist, confident that no insurmountable barrier > exists to stop scientists from understanding the mind in terms of the > properties and organization of its neurons." > > The "Astonishing Hypothesis," of course, remains to be proved ? or > disproved. And doing so, he conceded, will be difficult. > > "My work with DNA was much easier and that wasn't really accepted for > many years," he said. "There, we were looking at what was happening at > the molecular level, basic processes of life. This is far more > complicated, involving whole systems we don't fully understand." > > Despite his penchant for raising eyebrows and uproars, Crick was > famously publicity-shy. > > "It's just the way I am," he told Time magazine in 1993 on the 40th > anniversary of the discovery of DNA's structure. "For a long time, I > refused to let people put my photo in textbooks. Unfortunately, I have > a very good press agent (referring to Watson, who is markedly less shy > of publicity). Now it's hopeless." > > Nonetheless, he steadfastly declined attempts to honor him, refused > all honorary doctorates and preferred to stick close to home, either > at his house in La Jolla or his getaway in Borrego Springs. It was > only reluctantly that he traveled to England in 1991 to accept the > Order of Merit from the Queen, an honor greater than knighthood and > limited to only 24 people at any time. > > He said he went only because his wife and secretary insisted. > > Nonetheless, if cornered in an interview, Crick was invariably > charming, witty and courtly. His voice was soft, cultured and > distinctly English. He loved to talk, to startle listeners with ideas, > then follow up with a wide, knowing smile that made his blue eyes > crinkle and lifted great, bushy white eyebrows heavenward. > > Except for a short stint at Harvard, Crick never taught as a full-time > university professor. He avoided the traditional classroom, which he > found stultifying, and in later years, the laboratory, which he said > was best left to "better experimentalists." > > Scientific method for Crick involved thinking, pure and simple. He was > a theorist who preferred to look at the big picture in search of big > answers. He liked to develop ideas, propose experiments, predict > outcomes and then try to figure out what they all meant. > > His usual methodology involved inviting colleagues to stay with him > for a week, a month, perhaps several months. Most of that time was > spent in discussion, intensive talks that dominated the days and often > the nights. > > A colleague, one Crick story goes, asked Odile once whether her > husband worked a lot. "No," she replied, "I don't think he works a > lot. But he thinks a lot." > > Crick kept his door ? and mind ? open to everything. Scientists often > bounced ideas off him. He was a voracious reader and a great > assimilator, consuming huge amounts of information, then processing it > in new ways. > > Contrarily, he never gave much thought to how he worked ? or why it > was successful. > > "People who do this sort of thing are not very keen on examining very > carefully how they do it. They're afraid it will interfere with the > process. There are lots of things going on in the brain that you're > not aware of, so it's probably better to adopt a sort of Zen attitude: > Don't press. Don't try too hard. Let it happen. Don't analyze it too > much." > > Some critics of Crick ? he had his share ? dismissed this way of doing > business (though rarely publicly). They said thinking about a problem > wasn't the same as solving it, that he had become an outsider, > irrelevant because he wasn't actively doing his own research. > > Crick was unmoved by such observations. He worked this way, he said, > because he had earned the right by lasting so long. > > Plus, it was cheaper. > > It was Jonas Salk's offer of research resources and room to think that > drew Crick to La Jolla and the Salk Institute for Biological Studies > in 1976. There, ensconced in a large, book-cluttered office with an > expansive view of the Pacific Ocean, he spent most of his time > reading, writing and, of course, thinking. > > He also served when needed. Occasionally he acted as host for high > school tours of science students, many of whom, he ruefully noted, > were surprised to find their textbook icon was still alive. In > addition, Crick served as interim president of the Salk Institute, > from October 1994 to September 1995, when he stepped down due to > health problems. > > The reduced duties, he said, gave him more time to think ? something > he always did well. > > Crick is survived by his wife; their two daughters, Gabrielle and > Jaqueline, and a son, Michael, from his previous marriage. > > > [] > Staff writer Bruce Lieberman contributed to this story. > > > At 04:44 AM 7/29/2004, you wrote: >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: giedrius at salk.edu >>> Date: 29 July 2004 09:42:49 BST >>> To: Geraint Rees >>> Subject: Fwd: Francis Crick >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Forwarded message from Richard Murphy ----- >>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:25:55 -0700 >>> From: Richard Murphy >>> Reply-To: Richard Murphy >>> Subject: Francis Crick >>> To: all_science at salk.edu, all_admin at salk.edu >>> >>> It's with the greatest sadness that I inform you that Francis Crick, >>> who has >>> been suffering with cancer, died this evening. >>> >>> Francis will be remembered as one of the most brilliant and >>> influential >>> scientists of all time. He will be missed as a gentleman, a role >>> model, and >>> a person who has contributed so much to our understanding of biology >>> and the >>> health of mankind. For those of us privileged to know him at Salk, he >>> will >>> also be remembered as a dear friend. >>> >>> I know you join me in expressing deepest sympathy to Odile Crick and >>> their >>> family. >>> >>> Rich >>> >>> >>> ----- End forwarded message ----- >>> >>> >>> >> --- >> Geraint Rees MRCP PhD, >> Wellcome Senior Clinical Fellow >> Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience, University College London, >> 17 Queen Square, London WC1N 3AR >> voice +44-20-7679-5496 cell +44-7951-967357 fax +44-20-813-1420 >> http://www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/~grees > > ==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Reply to ned.block at nyu.edu rather than the verizon address > Ned Block, Professor of Philosophy and Psychology > Department of Philosophy, New York University, Silver Center Room 503 > 100 Washington Square East, New York NY 10003 > TEL: 212-998-8322, Phil Dept: 212-998-8320; Departmental FAX: > 212-995-4179, Home FAX: 212-475-2338 > Web site: http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/block/ > There is a campus map at http://www.nyu.edu/wsmap.html > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > From gruber at biop.ox.ac.uk Fri Jul 30 19:59:13 2004 From: gruber at biop.ox.ac.uk (gruber) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:59:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sg - nano research In-Reply-To: <200407291800.i6TI0Jj08971@tick.javien.com> References: <200407291800.i6TI0Jj08971@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: They already are (or beginning to ....): a-star page: ---------------- http://www.a-star.edu.sg/astar/biopolis/action/biopolis.do Institute of Bioengineering and Nanotechnology: ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ibn.a-star.edu.sg/ Jan Gruber > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:26:16 -0500 > From: "Kevin Freels" > Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Unlimited research? > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Here's a way to make some progress! I wonder if they will try to do > the same with nanotech. :-) > Singapore Wants You! > The future-friendly city-state has an offer bioscientists can't > refuse: unrestricted research, top-notch equipment, and limitless > funds. > > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.08/singapore.html > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://www.lucifer.com/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20040728/ > 4bad004e/attachment-0001.htm > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1250 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jul 29 21:53:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:53:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040729165245.01cbcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://zdnet.com.com/2102-1103_2-5289179.html?tag=printthis "Most nanotechnologies pose no new risks to health, safety or the environment, but we believe research and regulation is required immediately to address uncertainties about the effects of manufactured nanoparticles and nanotubes," Professor Ann Dowling, of the University of Cambridge, told a news conference. From starman2100 at cableone.net Fri Jul 30 01:18:51 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:18:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Francis Crick Message-ID: <1091150331_3477@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starman2100 at cableone.net Fri Jul 30 03:55:12 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:55:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed Message-ID: <1091159712_9671@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at aculink.net Fri Jul 30 05:05:27 2004 From: john at aculink.net (John M) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:05:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204072902424c3cbbc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200407300505.i6U55Oj01585@tick.javien.com> If anybody else needs an invite, e-mail me; I've got a half-dozen or so I could part with. Not all to one person, though; don't be greedy :). > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:43 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > I just invited you. > G. > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net > wrote: > > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any invites > though and haven't heard anything yet. > > > > Artillo > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, have > > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > > > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > > > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > > > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > > > > > -- > > > Emlyn > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jul 30 06:17:14 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:17:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040730011535.01c1a150@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike Jones offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, pal? Damien From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 06:17:48 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Japananese libertarian realists In-Reply-To: <212790-22004742219125274@M2W050.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040730061749.52090.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Japan and America, Two ?Cultures of Piracy? Both Japan and the U.S. have experienced significant declines in music sales over the past five years; But while the U.S. industry has responded by seeking legal actions against its own consumers, Japanese record makers are seeking ways to rebuild consumer loyalty rather than demand customer obedience. http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/blog.asp?blogID=1493&trk=nl "...The solution to the music industry crisis, he argues, is cultural not legal or economic and it involves changing the relations between music producers and consumers to emphasize shared interests rather than economic exploitation. Imagine that!" Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jul 30 06:46:59 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:46:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040729165245.01cbcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040729165245.01cbcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040730064659.GD1174@leitl.org> On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:53:45PM -0500, damien wrote: > http://zdnet.com.com/2102-1103_2-5289179.html?tag=printthis > > "Most nanotechnologies pose no new risks to health, safety or the > environment, but we believe research and regulation is required immediately > to address uncertainties about the effects of manufactured nanoparticles > and nanotubes," Professor Ann Dowling, of the University of Cambridge, told > a news conference. Sure, and plutonium is just a metal. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jul 30 16:22:14 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano In-Reply-To: <20040730064659.GD1174@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040730162214.45221.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:53:45PM -0500, damien > wrote: > > > http://zdnet.com.com/2102-1103_2-5289179.html?tag=printthis > > > > "Most nanotechnologies pose no new risks to > health, safety or the > > environment, but we believe research and > regulation is required immediately > > to address uncertainties about the effects of > manufactured nanoparticles > > and nanotubes," Professor Ann Dowling, of the > University of Cambridge, told > > a news conference. > > Sure, and plutonium is just a metal. With handling precautions not dissimilar to the previous-experimented-with radium. (Besides, they said "most": assemblers are one thing, but by volume produced these days, most nanostuff is raw bulk INERT coatings. Active systems of any kind are relatively uncommon; mechanically active systems with features under 1 micron are mere lab prototypes, for the most part. At least, that's how it stands today.) From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jul 30 16:42:23 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:42:23 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano In-Reply-To: <20040730162214.45221.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040730064659.GD1174@leitl.org> <20040730162214.45221.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040730164223.GL1174@leitl.org> On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:22:14AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Sure, and plutonium is just a metal. > > With handling precautions not dissimilar to the > previous-experimented-with radium. (Besides, they You know what I meant. Pebbles won't blow up in your face if you shovel a large heap of it. For the terminally LFP-intoxicated: this is an analogy. Swarms of nanorobots usually don't result in mushroom clouds (unless you use them to fab fusion devices). > said "most": assemblers are one thing, but by volume > produced these days, most nanostuff is raw bulk INERT > coatings. Active systems of any kind are relatively We're obviously not discussing the gwave and tewwible dangers of inhaled pigment nanoparticles here. It is ridiculous how people are talking past each other. Why backpedalling in regards of military self-rep systems? If anything, they're closer to reality than ever. > uncommon; mechanically active systems with features > under 1 micron are mere lab prototypes, for the most > part. At least, that's how it stands today.) We're obviously not talking about some piece of today's "nanotechnology", which only is called that for marketing hype purposes. Latter day's asbestosis or silicosis is strictly negligible in comparison to things which are designed to depilate cute furry mammals, and generally screw up the biosphere. Mushroom clouds, or no. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lestervergiss at hotmail.com Fri Jul 30 21:54:21 2004 From: lestervergiss at hotmail.com (Lester Vergiss) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:54:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Quantum Computing Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benboc at lineone.net Fri Jul 30 20:17:00 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (Ben Cunningham) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:17:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano References: <200407301800.i6UI0Bj32701@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <003901c4768d$56846500$23122850@ibm300mx> Eugen Leitl said: > We're obviously not talking about some piece of today's "nanotechnology", > which only is called that for marketing hype purposes. We might not be, but I'm afraid that report is. The report specifically says that the kind of nanotech that involves molecular assembly is not likely "in the foreseeable future". In other words, they rule it out of their considerations altogether. The report is a big disappointment, and just highlights that the term 'nanotechnology' has been hi-jacked by industry. Transhumanists are going to have to stop using the term, i think, for fear of confusing things. Otherwise, people are going to start thinking that titanium dioxide is REALLY amazing stuff. 'Nanotechnology' is no longer MNT. ben From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jul 31 01:10:55 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano In-Reply-To: <003901c4768d$56846500$23122850@ibm300mx> Message-ID: <20040731011055.70138.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ben Cunningham wrote: > Otherwise, people are going to start thinking that > titanium dioxide is > REALLY amazing stuff. Hey, if it's all white with them... ;) From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jul 31 07:05:39 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:05:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Quantum Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040731070538.GH1174@leitl.org> On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:54:21PM +0000, Lester Vergiss wrote: You're sending HTML-only. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Jul 31 20:54:24 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:54:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: List Spam Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040731135334.035133e0@mail.earthlink.net> Looks like the list is getting a bit this week. Natasha From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jul 31 20:13:36 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:13:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Swedish researchers back for a "googlewhack" Message-ID: <410BFD70.B52BCB57@sasktel.net> this time searching for "pharming" + "THC" + "bioreactor" they did a googlewhack on our site. This means that we are the only site in the world that has all those keywords in its content. Now there are 2.............;>} MFJ From live2scan at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 31 23:11:59 2004 From: live2scan at bellsouth.net (Dennis Roberts) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:11:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed > BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS > > http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 > > > _After reading the article this's obvious that GW is not Alfred E. Neuman he's Forrest Gump. Dennis Roberts ___________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jul 31 22:34:51 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:34:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> Message-ID: <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> could you paste the text from that page to a message... or maybe send directly to me at mfj.eav at gmail.com ? everytime I go to the site it loads and just momentarily after it flips to a page not found page. It really ticks me off when somebody decides for me what I will or will not read. I had this happen only once before. I was at a british site downloading cannabis cultivation manuals and only got them because I was able to cut and paste the very instant the page loaded. Dennis Roberts wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Broderick" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:01 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed > > > BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS > > > > http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 > > > > > > _After reading the article this's obvious that GW is not Alfred E. Neuman > he's Forrest Gump. > > Dennis Roberts > ___________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dgc at cox.net Sat Jul 31 23:56:57 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:56:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: >could you paste the text from that page to a message... or maybe send directly >to me at mfj.eav at gmail.com ? > >everytime I go to the site it loads and just momentarily after it flips to a >page not found >page. > >It really ticks me off when somebody decides for me what I will or will not >read. > >I had this happen only once before. >I was at a british site downloading cannabis cultivation manuals and only got >them because I was able to cut and paste the very instant the page loaded. > > If you are using Mozilla or Firefox, (and maybe IE: I don't use windows so I don't know) you can right-click on the link to bring up a menu, and then select" save link target as..." Your browser will not load the link into a page, but will instead save it to disk. You should then be able to decontaminate the HTML if necessary. More likely, it'll just work when you look at it from you disk rather than from the web, or if you open it with a different HTML-reading program such as MSWord. The more interesting question is: what program is doing the re-direct. It sounds like you may have hostile spyware on your system. I suspect the reload is an unintended side effect. Here is the link for you to experiment on: http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02