[extropy-chat] Evidence for the self surviving brain disassembly?

Eugen Leitl eugen at leitl.org
Tue Mar 30 08:42:42 UTC 2004


On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 04:06:51PM +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> [Eugene]
> > I don't understand where "mere copy" comes from.
> 
> I don't regard eqivalence and identity as the same thing in this case.

Identity is a lot stronger than equivalence. Two similiar but different
systems might be equivalent, two system in the same quantum state are
identical. I.e. there is measurement possible allowing them to distinguish
them. This isn't an opinion, this is a well-known physical fact.
 
> Others that have a limited view of me based on their perceptions
> (which I see as their limits not mine) might conceivably be able to
> think they can replace me (or any other to them) with a copy.  

Gedanken experiments which use a full quantum state respresentation encode
the system exhaustively.
 
> Similarly, my understanding of who Eugene is, is based on my
> disconnected relationship with Eugene. To me, you, Eugene 
> are an other not a self. 
 
Sure.

> Someone might be able to masquerade as you to me. They
> would have a lot more trouble masqueradeing as you to you
> or as me to me.

I'm not sure the term "masquerading" is appropriate for system 
introspection. Introspection does not allow comparisons, either than
comparing trajectories of independant runs.
 
> I don't know if they would quite as much trouble masquerading
> as you to you as they would me to me.
> 
> >  "Can't tell from the original" is good enough for external observers.
> 
> Yes. Even very poor substitutes can fool some external observers. 

Notice that this is sufficient as far as your friends and relatives are
conserned.
 
> >  "Can't tell myself" + "can't tell from the original, external observers"
> > + "can't tell from deep level rich operational fingerprint" should be
> >  good enough for anybody.
> 
> As a somebody I am not convinced. 

Two system in the same quantum state are identical (nondistinguishable).
Once again: this is not a manner of conjecture, or an opinion. It's a well
know physical fact. 
 
> > That info is encoded in the physical system.
> 
> I'm not sure encoded is the right word. 

That was a shorthand of saying that flat EEG lacunes do not destroy identiy
(I've met a few people who disputed this, but it is a sufficiently unusual
point of view), and that the transiently dormant physical system contains
sufficient information to resume the spatiotemporal activity pattern we call
a specific person -- once again, this is an empiric fact, and no conjecture.
 
> > Isomorphic substitution results in the same system, given 
> > pattern identity.
> 
> I am not sold on "pattern identity". 

Fortunately for us, the laws of physics do believe in pattern identity.
 
> > Pattern identity follows from measurable observations
> > (quantum identity).
> 
> I don't follow. 

There's an outline of a proof in the Appendix of Tipler's "Physics of
Immortality". If you agree with that, your only loophole is that no two
nontrivial systems can be made to exist in the same state.

I again point towards the fact that the noise floor for information
processing through biological tissues is huge in comparison. The attractor is
extremely robust to bounce back after giant-amplitude events, considering the
scale.

I won't say more than this, because the list seems to be deja vuing all over
the place (see the nanotechnology debate, which is a very dead horse indeed). No
need to ressurrect another zombie, aka the identity definition.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
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