[extropy-chat] Re: [SOCIO] Cooperation and diversity

Dirk Bruere dirk at neopax.com
Tue Apr 26 14:57:30 UTC 2005

Jef Allbright wrote:

> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> Jef Allbright wrote:
>>> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>>>> Jef Allbright wrote:
>>>>> Rather, we can expect *increased* diversity, but within an 
>>>>> increasingly aware cultural framework that recognizes and promotes 
>>>>> the enhanced value of cooperative interaction among diverse agents.
>>>> I think that the opposite is likely.
>>>> That with increasing diversity there will come a massive, and 
>>>> polarised, competition between new Human species.
>>>> Racism writ larger than ever.
>>>> Those who don't 'look after their own' preferentially will lose out 
>>>> to those who do.
>>> Dirk, cooperative advantage is fundamental to competitive success at 
>>> all scales of organization, from the subatomic through prebiological 
>>> and biological to cultural.
>>> Do you not think these hypothetical separatists would have some 
>>> interests in common, and find ways to cooperate, even temporarily, 
>>> to overcome others less organized?  Do you not think that those who 
>>> find themselves at a disadvantage would tend to adapt and cooperate 
>>> rather than be destroyed?
>>> Why do you speculate that these "new humans", more advanced than us, 
>>> would recapitulate evolutionary growth from isolated biological 
>>> organisms to cooperative cultural organisms?
>>> "Looking out for your own" is the essence of morality, and in the 
>>> broader sense means converting your potential enemies into trading 
>>> partners rather than destroying them.
>> The only morality will be game theory .
>> If it is cost effective to trade, then trade.
>> If it is cost effective to annihilate the opposition then that's what 
>> will happen.
>> Why do you expect evolutionary pressures to cease or expect some kind 
>> of universal morality beyond game theory?
> Interesting, your basic assertions match mine, but then you conclude 
> that we disagree.
> I too think it's all about game theory, but keeping in mind that most 
> games are presented within artificially narrow context, so one tends 
> to see the pieces but not the greater pattern, and paradox rather than 
> a coherent whole.
> There's a time to trade and a time to annihilate, each in the 
> near-term smaller scale, but overall evolutionary growth favors 
> synergy.  Competition at one scale can be seen as cooperation at a 
> larger scale since it tends to produce systems that are more robust 
> than what preceded them. Whether it's two hydrogen and one oxygen atom 
> forming water, mitochondria working within the machinery of our cells, 
> or groups of humans working together to do what no subgroup could do 
> alone, each instance of "cooperation", or synergy, results in a system 
> with greater degrees of freedom--greater probable survival value--than 
> before.
> As I've said, looking out for Self is of the essence in morality, as 
> it is with game theory. For an agent not to look out for its own 
> interests (as it sees them) would be irrational or insane.  But wisdom 
> is seeing Self in the bigger picture.  For any given context, what is 
> considered "moral" (by that subjective agent) is what works.  And over 
> increasing context (of actors and interactions) what increasingly 
> works is considered increasingly moral.

'Self' in the current bigger picture is the success of propagating ones 
genes into the future.
With immortals that big picture shrinks down to more immediate self.

> Dirk, I'm arguing *for* evolutionary theory, and saying that 
> synergy--what we call "cooperation" when it's between agents--is 
> fundamental to survival and growth of any evolving system.
Of course it is, but 99% of all the species that have existed are extinct.
Co-operation occurs within species and competition between species in 
the same ecological niche.
I susepct that one of the defining aspects of PostHumans is that their 
'niche' will encompass just about everything.


The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium

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