From dgc at cox.net Tue Feb 1 01:28:12 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:28:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Islamofacism [was: The Force of Human Freedom] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41FEDB2C.60207@cox.net> Greg Burch wrote: >I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and islamofascism in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand in an analogous situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake up to and deal with the threat. > > > It's possible that we are using the wrong analogy. Islam is a very broad religion. I suspect Islam today is much more analogous to Catholicism in the 16th century than it is to fascism in the 20th.. One of the ugliest aspects of Catholicism in the 16th was the Spanish inquisition. By today's standards the Inquisition was every bit as evil as the fascism of the 20th, but I think is makes a much better analogy. There is no body of "good fascists" as far as most of us are concerned: The fascist system may have been theoretically good in some ways (I doubt it) but every actual instance ended in what I think of as evil. By contrast, Catholicism in the 16th, in many of its manifestations, was a force for good. in other manifestations, most notably the Inquisition, it was a force for evil. I see Islam the same way. Throughout is history, in many of its manifestations it was and is a force for good. In other manifestations, notably Al-Qaida, it is a force for evil. Let's pick our analogies, and our battles, with care. Note: I'm an Atheist. I think that most dogmas, religious and secular, lead to non-rational conclusions and are dangerous. But as a practical matter, not all groups that adhere to a particular dogma are irrational in the same way, so some groups are more dangerous than others. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 02:16:07 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:16:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Visiting Florida's Panhandle in February 2005 Message-ID: <5366105b05013118161886661e@mail.gmail.com> Monday, 31 January 2005 Hello all, Work takes me to Florida's panhandle all next month. Anyone from the Pensacola-Ft. Walton Beach area who'd like to meet in-person, please let me know off-list. -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 02:40:25 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:40:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Islamofacism [was: The Force of Human Freedom] In-Reply-To: <41FEDB2C.60207@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050201024026.64137.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Greg Burch wrote: > > >I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between > the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and > islamofascism in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand > in an analogous situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake > up to and deal with the threat. > > > > > > > It's possible that we are using the wrong analogy. Islam is a very > broad religion. I suspect Islam today is much more analogous to > Catholicism in the 16th century than it is to fascism in the 20th.. > > One of the ugliest aspects of Catholicism in the 16th was the Spanish > inquisition. By today's standards the Inquisition was every bit as > evil as the fascism of the 20th, but I think is makes a much better > analogy. There is no body of "good fascists" as far as most of us are > concerned: > The fascist system may have been theoretically good in some ways (I > doubt it) but every actual instance ended in what I think of as evil. > By contrast, Catholicism in the 16th, in many of its manifestations, > was a force for good. in other manifestations, most notably the > Inquisition, it was a force for evil. On the contrary, the governments of Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin, Mao, and Kai-shek were all fascist-oriented: they belived in very broad government management of economies, centralized resource management, and control over individuals, demands that individuals conform to societal norms. Hitler, Mussolini, and Togo were only the most onerous examples, but even during their reigns many people in many nations thought that they were okay so long as 'they make the trains run on time.' Franco was tolerated for decades by the west, and even put the Spanish royal family back on the throne, while the others were lionized by political cults of personality as 'great leaders', every one of them: Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin, Mao, Kai-shek. They all prospered through the use of the cold war. > > I see Islam the same way. Throughout is history, in many of its > manifestations it was and is a force for good. In other > manifestations, notably Al-Qaida, it is a force for evil. Al Qaeda is known throughout the muslim world for doing good things for the poor, and Osama is now the most popular baby's name. You can't say people aren't programmed to believe al Qaeda is a force for good among muslims. Catholic extremism in the time of the Inquisition was a reaction against muslim depredations upon europe and catholic parishes in the holy land, across syria, iraq, Iran, to the Malabar Coast, where St Thomas, the apostle, finally settled after founding the Syrian christian faith. These parishes were cut off and largely converted by force of arms or economic/political pressure. Imagine if Europe swept across north africa and christianized the whole African continent. Wouldn't islam feel it is under pressure? That is the pressure Catholicism was under then. Even up to the 1600's the turks occupied Vienna. Earlier on they had occupied Spain, Portugal, and part of France. Today islam is intent on reclaiming the full extent of its lands and more: europe, south african nations, east africa, western China. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 04:34:09 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:34:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] stem cell therapy for als In-Reply-To: <41FEC109.9D18E987@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200502010434.j114YFC03244@tick.javien.com> hey, cool: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145898,00.html spike From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 04:45:49 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:45:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] WTA CHAPTER OFFICERS CAN GO FREE TO TRANSVISION 2005 Message-ID: <20050201044550.40767.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Dear WTA Chapter Officers, In order to promote transhumanist ideas around the world, the TransVision 2005 Organizing Committee has decided to rely on the WTA Chapter Officers to spread the news and to help with registrations. Thus, we will waive the registration fees of the WTA Chapter Officers who manage to register three (3) people from their chapters or areas, and we will also pay for the hotel rooms of the Chapter Officers that register two (2) additional members. Please, if you have any questions and/or doubts, please contact directly: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com. Remember that you can get round-trip tickets from anywhere in North America to Venezuela (Caracas: CCS) for less than $500, and from Europe for less than $700, if you book in advance with flexible time/dates (check, for example, www.travelocity.com, www.expedia.com or other Internet travel pages). And we are going to be staying in a 5-star hotel (now downgraded to 4-stars because of aging) built in a fantastic setting by Rockefeller himself in the 1940's. After the conferences, there will be scuba diving sessions for those interested: www.TransHumanismO.org/tv05 Please, feel free to use any materials and banners in the press section for publicity and media contacts. We are thankful for all your cooperation and we expect to have the largest international transhumanist gathering in history, until now. Looking forward to hosting you in Caracas next July, transhumanistically yours, Jos? Cordeiro (TV05 Conference Chair) James Hughes (TV05 International Committee) Santiago Ochoa (TV05 Venezuelan Committee) La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 05:42:55 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:42:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] rapture index In-Reply-To: <20050201044550.40767.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502010543.j115h2C12584@tick.javien.com> You flaming heatherns on extropians are causing the rapture index to go up, shame on you. spike http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html The Purpose For This Index The Rapture Index has two functions: one is to factor together a number of related end time components into a cohesive indicator, and the other is to standardize those components to eliminate the wide variance that currently exists with prophecy reporting. The Rapture Index is by no means meant to predict the rapture, however, the index is designed to measure the type of activity that could act as a precursor to the rapture. You could say the Rapture index is a Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity, but I think it would be better if you viewed it as prophetic speedometer. The higher the number, the faster we're moving towards the occurrence of pre-tribulation rapture. Rapture Index of 85 and Below: Slow prophetic activity Rapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity Rapture Index above 145: Fasten your seat belts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 06:19:30 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:19:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] ai reading the internet again In-Reply-To: <20050131175217.75440.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502010619.j116JdC17043@tick.javien.com> > Mike Lorrey: > > ... get called 'survivalists' and other epithets... > ===== > Mike Lorrey Epithets? I always thought the term survivalist was a compliment. What is the opposite? Perishist? Pejoration is the linguistic process of a word gradually becoming more negative in meaning or connotation over time. The opposite is amelioration, the process of a word evolving a more positive connotation over time. Curious is the term suck. My office mate is the goalie for the Stanford hockey team. At the last game his cheering section unfurled a banner which read: Don't Suck, Straigis! At one time, the term suck meant to cause stimulation of the genitals through oral manipulation, (which is a good thing in most people's view) but now it means of low quality or to perform poorly, which is bad. So we must conclude the term has pejorated. Yet at one time the original usage was considered vulgar, whereas it has now passed into common speech, which would be an example of amelioration. Simultaneous amelioration and pejoration? How confused will be an emergent AI, should it attempt to grok humans with our common use of the term suck. spike From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:19:24 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Ward Churchill, glory seeker In-Reply-To: <20050131223305.94708.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050201061924.60978.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ward Churchill admitted today his doctorate is an honorary one. Among other depressing facts revealed on the various interviews was that he was in Vietnam; however he apparently learned little from his tour of duty there. Churchill thinks the "technocrats" at WTC on 9-11 deserved their fates because they were 'plugged into the imperialist war machine opposed to Arab interests'. I met Noam Chomsky in 1987, noticing the same cold, determined contempt in the voice. You might think these academics have a cause in mind yet a simple desire for revenge might be a likely explanation. Sure, a book contract for a title like say 'Twenty First Century McCarthyism' plus $1,000 honorariums on the radical circuit are attractive to him, but to retire famous would be even more satisfying. Nonetheless, keeping Churchill in his professorship (he resigned his chairmanship of the Ethnic Studies Department as planned for a long time, unrelated to the scandal) would help his detractors as he is the worst advertisement for left radicalism known today. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:25:08 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] brinkmanship In-Reply-To: <20050131222953.93456.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050201062509.31971.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It seems Iranian officials are willing to risk a general war, even world-wide Armageddon-- perhaps so they each get their 72 virgins sooner rather than later? This is genuine brinkmanship on the part of Iran. > Iran has shipped in too much weaponry for the shiites, > and there is no longer any C3I like what Saddam had. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 06:26:32 2005 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:26:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google's search for meaning In-Reply-To: <2955420.1107169992281.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> References: <2955420.1107169992281.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> Message-ID: <7a3217050501312226715644bb@mail.gmail.com> Eliezer, I know you're in the midst of a cross-country relocation (I hope its going smoothly), but I came across the following and I'm interested in your take. I know (I think) that your approach focuses on developing a seedling AI by the intelligent design of a software "mentality" kernel, right? What do you think the chances are of creating intelligence by coaxing computers to infer meaning from the interrelatedness of the "bits" of human culture (words) based on Google-type web searches? Zero ************************* Google's search for meaning NewScientist.com News January 26, 2005 ************************* Computers can now deduce the meaning of words from the frequency of nearby words in Google searches. The finding could bring forward the day that true artificial intelligence is developed. Paul Vitanyi and Rudi Cilibrasi of the National Institute for Mathematics and Computer Science in Amsterdam have developed a statistical indicator based on a... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=4209&m=7817 From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 08:49:38 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:49:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Ward Churchill, intellectual criminal In-Reply-To: <20050201084418.28878.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050201084938.2567.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> More and more I think of what Frank Zappa said in an interview circa 1984: "Education in America is pure shit, [what matters more than anything is] labor control. Communism is the best way to manipulate labor. But God gave you a sense of humor so you can laugh at the whole thing". __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 09:01:44 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:01:44 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rock on Titan Message-ID: <470a3c520502010101442c0c1f@mail.gmail.com> "Music has always been at the centre of cultures all over the world and it will continue to play an important part in thousands of years time. Music has a role in the same way as technology and science in reflecting the age we live in and generally exploring new areas beyond the accepted boundaries and beyond Earth," said Mick Jagger on the Music2Titan project. Four songs 'Lalala', 'Bald James Deans', 'Hot Time' and 'No Love', composed by musicians Julien Civange and Louis Ha?ri, hitched a 4000 million kilometre ride aboard ESA's Huygens, finally landing on Titan on 14 January. Rock legend Mick Jagger gave his support to this unique initiative. "The music on board the spacecraft offers a very human touch to the project and at the same time provides an important educational aspect to the mission" said Jagger. http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMXQIO3E4E_index_0.html From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Feb 1 13:09:04 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:09:04 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: [extropy-chat] The Transhuman (1953) Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050201070544.040d5160@pop-server.austin.rr.com> > >From: Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com >I was reading Teilhard in the early 1960s, and stole it from Sir Julian >Huxley's somewhat Teilhardian meditations in NEW BOTTLES FOR OLD WINE. >Perhaps Huxley sole it from Dante Alighieri ! :-) > > >Natasha > > >Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 13:13:00 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:13:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] ai reading the internet again In-Reply-To: <200502010619.j116JdC17043@tick.javien.com> References: <20050131175217.75440.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200502010619.j116JdC17043@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:19:30 -0800, spike wrote: > Curious is the term suck. My office mate is the > goalie for the Stanford hockey team. At the last game > his cheering section unfurled a banner which read: > Don't Suck, Straigis! > > At one time, the term suck meant to cause stimulation > of the genitals through oral manipulation, (which is > a good thing in most people's view) but now it means > of low quality or to perform poorly, which is bad. So > we must conclude the term has pejorated. Yet at one > time the original usage was considered vulgar, whereas > it has now passed into common speech, which would be > an example of amelioration. Simultaneous amelioration > and pejoration? > > How confused will be an emergent AI, should it attempt > to grok humans with our common use of the term suck. > According to the dictionary, you've been mixing with vulgar people again. Your mother warned you about bad company! ;) Suck is a word that originates from the sound that you make when you do it. A similar sounding word is found in many languages. >From the Online Etymological Dictionary: Suck O.E. sucan, from PIE root *sug-/*suk- of imitative origin (cf. O.S., O.H.G. sugan, O.N. suga, M.Du. sughen, Du. zuigen, Ger. saugen "to suck;" L. sugere "to suck," succus "juice, sap;" O.Ir. sugim, Welsh sugno "to suck"). Meaning "do fellatio" is first recorded 1928. Slang sense of "be contemptible" first attested 1971 (the underlying notion is of fellatio). Suck eggs is from 1906. Suck hind tit "be inferior" is Amer.Eng. slang first recorded 1940. --------------------------- The 'contemptible' meaning probably comes from male teen slang. Like they insult each other by using parts of female anatomy or female characteristics as epithets. A similar insult would be to accuse another male of being the type of person who performs fellatio. >From Dictionary.com: v. sucked, suck?ing, sucks v. tr. 1. To draw (liquid) into the mouth by movements of the tongue and lips that create suction. 2. 1. To draw in by establishing a partial vacuum: a cleaning device that sucks up dirt. 2. To draw in by or as if by a current in a fluid. 3. To draw or pull as if by suction: teenagers who are sucked into a life of crime. 3. To draw nourishment through or from: suck a baby bottle. 4. To hold, moisten, or maneuver (a sweet, for example) in the mouth. 5. Vulgar Slang. To perform fellatio on. v. intr. 1. To draw something in by or as if by suction: felt the drain starting to suck. 2. To draw nourishment; suckle. 3. To make a sound caused by suction. 4. Vulgar Slang. To be disgustingly disagreeable or offensive. BillK From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Tue Feb 1 13:16:25 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:16:25 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: First reactions to transhumanism Translated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200502011116.25947.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> This is the babel fish translation of the site. http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr?url=http%3A//www.voir.ca/actualite/actualite.aspx%3FiIDArticle%3D32418&lp=fr_en Diego (Log At) Em Domingo 30 Janeiro 2005 23:37, M. De Th?zier escreveu: > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > The Canadian online magazine VOIR offers a debate between a > > transhumanist and a neoluddite, for French speakers to enjoy. The most > > interesting thing is reading the many comments left by readers, many > > of whom apparently had not been exposed to transhumanism befor. It is > > I believe a useful lesson that can be used for better marketing to see > > the range of first reactions to transhumanism. > > http://www.voir.ca/actualite/actualite.aspx?iIDArticle=32418 > > > Hello Giu1i0, > > > You, along with other French speakers, may enjoy reading my critical > analysis of my experience with?VOIR since it will give you insight into the > phenomenon of information manipulation by the media. > > > http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/676 > > > For those whose undertstanding of French is to weak to read and understand > it, I will only say this: > > > The lesson is that you should always be aware of how every word you say or > write to a journalist, especially one?that has?a bioLuddite bias, can and > will be taken out of context and used against you in his > article.?Therefore,?avoid wild speculation about future technological > breakthroughs and?focus?on?your best?moral and scientific arguments for > human enhancement. More importantly, the best way to promote?transhumanism > is by honestly stressing?the importance of?responsibility. > > > -Justice From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 1 15:45:06 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:45:06 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFA402.5050107@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter turnout >of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout >for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence >(including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide >bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as >international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and >kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the only >people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were >the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of Bagdad >has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city >center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as Saddams >(assuming they use the same pedestal). > > > http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/nytviet.htm U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967) WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 1 15:47:47 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:47:47 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] brinkmanship In-Reply-To: <20050201062509.31971.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050201062509.31971.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFA4A3.3040007@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: >It seems Iranian officials are willing to risk a >general war, even world-wide Armageddon-- perhaps so >they each get their 72 virgins sooner rather than >later? >This is genuine brinkmanship on the part of Iran. > > > Strange, I thought it was by the US > > >>Iran has shipped in too much weaponry for the >> >> >shiites, > > >>and there is no longer any C3I like what Saddam had. >> >> > > > Hey! I bet they've got WMDs! Let's invade! -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Tue Feb 1 17:58:14 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Lynn Graps) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:58:14 -0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <200502011658.14377.Amara.Graps@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Dear Hubert, I think, in summary from our comparison of notes, that the people in Germany immediately after the war and for the next decade were probably shellshocked, in grief, etc. and not aware of the total sum of the events, and they needed time to absorb and adjust. So that by the time you were a boy, they knew. Probably it was still impossible to face the events very well, and so you saw and experienced your family and neighborhors in those states of mind. There's some interesting psychology studies that could be made here, that is, with how many decades a culture needs to bring a horror out in the public consiousness enough to talk about it. Well, maybe many studies have been made already, this seems like such an obvious topic. I typed in that passage (sorry for the typos) from the book in order to show that it is never black and white in war, the victors are absolutely never 'clean', but comparing 'degrees' of atrocity-behavior inevitably leads to treating human lives abstractly, which I think is wrong too. (Dead is dead, each one is another precious life gone.) Keith H's comments about these evolutionary behaviors are also another reason to look at all sides in a conflict, because I think the 'beast within' exists to some extent in all of us, and I agree with the author that '1945 is our problem.' Thanks for talking so openly and generously about your experiences. Sometime this summer or fall when the group I work in begins to write macros for the many-step sequencing commands for our Dawn instrument (*), I'll see if I can name one 'humania': maybe it will be the set of commands to clear the memory buffer ... ;-) Amara www.amara.com (*) http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, CNR - ARTOV, Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA ************************************************************************ "We came whirling out of Nothingness scattering stars like dust." --Rumi From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 1 18:27:03 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:27:03 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Molecular Electronics progress... Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050201122545.01b97518@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [our old pal Robert Bradbury posted this on another list:] For those of you who don't believe nanotechnology is coming... The NY Times is reporting [1] that Hewlitt-Packard is publishing a paper in the J. of Applied Physics documenting the use of nanoimprint lithography to create a type of switch (a "cross-bar latch") that can perform some types of logic operations. At a trillion switches per cm^2 this is at least 10,000 times the density of current chips. They are looking at commercial applications within 5 years. With major companies and 55 labs working on this approach there is a significant probability there may be some success. Molecular Electronics may be the first real nanotechnology applications we will see (because the semiconductor industry is facing "hitting the wall" and the breaking of Moore's Law). But once it becomes clear to enough scientists that devices can be built at the molecular level then the floodgates will open to things like *real* nanorobots. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/technology/01nano.html [This link is only good for a week and requires registration.] Robert From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 18:47:13 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:47:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] brinkmanship In-Reply-To: <41FFA4A3.3040007@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050201184714.75787.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is America attempting to turn Mexico or Canada into theocracies? Nobody misses Saddam Hussein and his rapo-mutilator Stalinists. So if democracy eventually does triumph in Iraq, after a generation or two, maybe 40 or 50 years, then we write the history books. Or if there are no history books at that time, children will read it on their computers. Dirk Bruere wrote: >Strange, I thought it was by the US --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 18:52:35 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:52:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: [extropy-chat] The Transhuman (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050201070544.040d5160@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050201185236.62594.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> And my book will steal from everybody, Including all of you. :-> Talk to my attorney when he gets parole. Natasha Vita-More wrote: Perhaps Huxley sole it from Dante Alighieri ! :-) Natasha --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 1 18:59:30 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:59:30 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] brinkmanship In-Reply-To: <20050201184714.75787.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050201184714.75787.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFD192.1080806@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: > Is America attempting to turn Mexico or Canada into theocracies? > Nobody misses Saddam Hussein and his rapo-mutilator Stalinists. > So if democracy eventually does triumph in Iraq, after a generation or > two, maybe 40 or 50 years, then we write the history books. Or if > there are no history books at that time, children will read it on > their computers. > > *//* And nobody would miss your good pals Musharraf (the Islamic military dictator) or that guy in Uzbekistan that boils people alive. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 1 19:16:04 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:16:04 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050131164852.67885.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050131164852.67885.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFD574.9020300@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: > The role of Stalin and Soviet State Security in the rise of Nazism is > not discussed enough. Stalin came first, contributing to the > installation of Hitler; Stalin sabotaged the anti-Nazi opposition > pre-1933; the Soviets also sabotaged the Spanish Civil War. > If you wont discuss the Soviet role in WWII & the pre-WWII era more, > then discussions of Nazism here (or anywhere else for that matter) are > worthless. Ditto the role of the Jews in the massive transfer of capital into Germany buying up the place cheap when the Dm failed. Or is everyone here into believing that they were a totally innocent party just minding their own business (no pun intended) and that the Nazis had no case whatsoever against them and international capital? Perhaps someone should be so un-PC as to post the % of the German economy controlled by Jewish interests at the point where the Nazis came to power. The Bolsheviks shot their ruling class (men, women and children), and the Nazis did likewise (as they saw it). And most of E Europe applauded and helped them do the same there. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 20:30:25 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:30:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <41FFA402.5050107@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050201203026.28461.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter > turnout > >of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout > >for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence > >(including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide > >bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as > >international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and > >kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the > only > >people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were > >the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of > Bagdad > >has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city > >center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as > Saddams > >(assuming they use the same pedestal). > > > > > > > http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/nytviet.htm > > U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: > Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror > by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967) Show an original image of the article on a NYT domain for that. I've seen so much fraudulent peacenik bs lately. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 21:25:15 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:25:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] brinkmanship In-Reply-To: <41FFD192.1080806@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050201212515.79243.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Ned Late wrote: > > > Is America attempting to turn Mexico or Canada into theocracies? > > Nobody misses Saddam Hussein and his rapo-mutilator Stalinists. > > So if democracy eventually does triumph in Iraq, after a generation > or > > two, maybe 40 or 50 years, then we write the history books. Or if > > there are no history books at that time, children will read it on > > their computers. > > > > *//* > > And nobody would miss your good pals Musharraf (the Islamic military > dictator) or that guy in Uzbekistan that boils people alive. Musharraf has been allowing multi-party elections. That he is acting as a monarch-like head of state in ousting corrupted officials is indisputable, however comparing him to Hussein is some terrible moral equivalency argument. As for the Uzbekis, well, we've got other fish to fry. Just because the world is full of snakes is no reason to refuse to stomp the rattlers in your path. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 21:56:10 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <41FFD574.9020300@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050201215611.59893.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Ned Late wrote: > > > The role of Stalin and Soviet State Security in the rise of Nazism > is > > not discussed enough. Stalin came first, contributing to the > > installation of Hitler; Stalin sabotaged the anti-Nazi opposition > > pre-1933; the Soviets also sabotaged the Spanish Civil War. > > If you wont discuss the Soviet role in WWII & the pre-WWII era > more, > > then discussions of Nazism here (or anywhere else for that matter) > are > > worthless. > > Ditto the role of the Jews in the massive transfer of capital into > Germany buying up the place cheap when the Dm failed. > Or is everyone here into believing that they were a totally innocent > party just minding their own business (no pun intended) and that the > Nazis had no case whatsoever against them and international capital? Actually the guilt had far less to do with germany being bought up than the fact that most Communists in easter europe were jews, so much so that the Bolsheviks were colloquially known in Russia as "the jewish party". The DM failure was a result of British and French war reparations and the Weimar government's decision to pay them off with fiat money. It is rather interesting the sort of anti-jew propaganda being spread around europe, primarily by muslim groups, these days. Just saw some of that in my area, when Dr. Price came to Dartmouth to give a talk about mideast peace. It was truly offensive the amount of muslim hate speech being leveled at Price by arab-american and muslim-american groups. One online forum featured a muslim local to the area being egged on by other muslims to kill Price. Racist muslims in the Dartmouth Civil Liberties Union were doing the same thing with emails on the DCLU email list (I forwarded them to Price and suggested he get some extra security). The State cops showed up, the FBI showed up. It was a wonderful demonstration of how the anti-America crowd only believe in their own right to free speech. Oh, and BTW: the Bolsheviks didn't shoot much of their ruling class. Most of the ruling class "turned Turk" and had fake identities drawn up by the Russian govt and they quickly became the soviet nomeklatura. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 22:44:07 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:44:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050130194413.02ea38a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <6.2.0.14.2.20050130194413.02ea38a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <4733a8e374886af19298596134dd5f9c@mac.com> It is rather difficult to evaluate general cultural conditions while not sampling many cultural elements. Do you disagree that there is a high level of fear operational in our culture a this time? - samantha On Jan 30, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Max More wrote: > I have no problem getting out of bed in the morning, and don't carry > around a whole lot of fear about the world as a background condition. > I also don't watch any TV, except for DVDs -- movies and really good > series like Six Feet Under and Monk. Amara's comment made me scratch > my head. All of which seems to back up your comment, MB. > > Max > From dethezier at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 22:45:56 2005 From: dethezier at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SnVzdGljZSBEZSBUaOl6aWVy?=) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:45:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: First reactions to transhumanism Translated Message-ID: On Tuesday, February 1, 2005, Diego wrote: >This is the babel fish translation of the site: >http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr?url=http%3A//www.voir.ca/actualite/actualite.aspx%3FiIDArticle%3D32418&lp=fr_en Ouch! The Babel Fish translation of that site was absolutely awful... Since I don't know of a better online web site translation service, I guess I have no choice to use it as well to show you my critical analysis in English: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftranshumanism.org%2Findex.php%2FWTA%2Fmore%2F676&lp=fr_en -Justice From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 22:50:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:50:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <735b6d05d928c77ba196a33992b1dcb3@mac.com> I find it problematic when the criticism itself seems largely ignored except for what looks like largely defensive reactions. There is more than a little to be critical of! -samantha On Jan 30, 2005, at 6:11 PM, Greg Burch wrote: > See my next post (which still hasn't come through to the list after > some hours). But to cut through the allegory in that, to condemn one > thing is necessarily to promote another. When someone says "No," it > is an absolutley legitimate question to ask, "If not this, then what?" > Even if the answer is "Nothing," I think asking for the alternative > is a legitimate response to relentless criticism. > > GB > From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 22:52:43 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:52:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ae3567e9ebc70f8a1dbf412772cfe5d@mac.com> OK. So what is your suggestion for how to deal with the level of threat that you perceive? On Jan 30, 2005, at 7:16 PM, Greg Burch wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Damien Broderick > >> At 05:24 PM 1/30/2005 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > >>> >>> A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people >>> just >>> shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can >>> they >>> sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that >>> fear-mongering?!?!" >> >> Hang on, this is a rather different kind of story isn't it? >> Muslims hither >> and yon =/= a mad dictator with plans for world conquest. The >> threat might >> well be real, but as Steve Davies and others have argued it derives >> from >> different drivers. What worries me is that the analogy looks closer >> to: >> >> < circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their >> negativity about >> Jews and gypsies all around the place? How can they sleep at >> night or get >> out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > >> >> That would not have been the most helpful response, either, but it >> places >> the burden of proof where it belongs, and foreshadows something >> terrible >> for the stigmatized groups. >> >> Damien Broderick > > I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between > the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and islamofascism > in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand in an analogous > situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake up to and deal > with the threat. > > As for "stigamatized people" -- go tell it to Theo van Gogh. > > GB > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 23:32:29 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:32:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] PBS turns into CSS [was: The Force of HumanFreedom] In-Reply-To: <000a01c5074e$5b01df20$7450eb44@firstbase> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <005e01c50725$7b615d50$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000a01c5074e$5b01df20$7450eb44@firstbase> Message-ID: <2143035eaf06dde2a55b8445bf89604d@mac.com> I expect the "general tax base to support equal rights for all. Should we who are denied equal rights support "public broadcasting that wishes to ignore our very existence and or treat us as undesirables? - s On Jan 30, 2005, at 8:35 PM, tankdoc wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" > > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 6:43 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] PBS turns into CSS [was: The Force of > HumanFreedom] > > >> From: "Amara Graps" >> >>>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ >>> >>> Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? >>> >>> With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep >>> at night, or get out of bed in the morning? >> >> It's worse than that, Amara. PBS (I now call them CSS, to be uttered >> with a fowl sneer) has recently caved in over the dilemma over >> imaginary cartoon characters' sexual orientations, and pulled their >> support of some real families (e.g., a family that was headed by two >> lesbian women who are join in civil union in Vermont). >> >> Culture Wars Pull Buster Into the Fray >> By JULIE SALAMON >> Published: January 27, 2005 >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/arts/television/27bust.html? >> oref=login > > Thats all fine and good - but why would you expect the general tax > base of America to support this? If you want this agenda pushed foward > then finding private funding seems the right way to go. > > Cladari > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 23:42:50 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:42:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <007201c5077c$3c4cea60$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> References: <20050130220827.M89131@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <007201c5077c$3c4cea60$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: On Jan 31, 2005, at 2:04 AM, Hubert Mania wrote: > Dear Amara, > > the subject of collective guilt was suppressed in public discussion > til the > 1980s when the us tv movie series "Holocaust" had a tremendous impact > on the > german society. Since that event and after some better documentations > - like > Claude Lanzmann's "Shoah" video - the complete horror of the holocaust > creeped into the public discussion. Reasonable persons tell you that > there > is no such thing like a collective guilt, even holocaust survivors say > it. > Instead, contemporary german citizens should play their individual > role to > prevent this from ever happening again. Well, I guess everybody has to > find > his own answer if he feels gulity being born into a society that has > permitted Ausschwitz to happen. Surely it is irrational to assume guilt for that one had no part in and no choice about, especially for things that occurred before birth. Rationality leaves no room for original sin. -samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 23:45:45 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:45:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> The level of discourse seemed to me much better than this silencing remark. On Jan 31, 2005, at 2:21 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 05:24:34PM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > >> Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a report >> like this. What if it's true? >> >> A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those >> people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler and >> Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in >> the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > > A: You're a Bushist! > B: I'm not! You're an appeasnik. I'm fighting Islamofascists! > A: You're a Neocon Religious Fundie Extremist. > B: Am not! > A: Are too. > B: Am not! > A: Neener, neener. > > Etc. > > Come on, I can get a better level of discourse at the local bar. > > Let's agree to disagree, preferrably off-list. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 1 23:59:53 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:59:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That there are ulterior motives is so obvious that i have great difficulty believing you do not see it. Bush as hero of freedom is so disgusting i am rendered speechless. Calling me anti-american is way beyond remotely civilized discourse. i hope you enjoy the sand you so thoroughly have your head planted in. - samantha On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter turnout > of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout > for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence > (including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide > bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as > international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and > kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the only > people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were > the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of Bagdad > has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city > center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as Saddams > (assuming they use the same pedestal). > > What successful iraqi elections do is expose the lie of the > anti-Americanistas here and elsewhere who claim all sorts of ulterior > motives. It will discredit the socialist/internationalist forces here > in the US and give further impetus to various "US out of the UN/UN out > of the US" campaigns around the US. > > Now Annan's son has copped to all the charges of corruption on the oil > for food scandal. The UN and the european anti-americanistas are going > down in flames. Marc Rich, the Clinton pardon recipient, is being > implicated as a major player in this criminal enterprise. No surprise > there. Word is coming down that the Clintons themselves may be > involved. Shall we call this the "Blackwater" scandal? > > The only farcical events are now any time the UN purports to represent > world opinion. > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> I don't see the logic. How can any outcome of that farcical event >> say anything relevant about how fascist the US is or is not? Even the > >> most miraculous outcome would not change the nature of our >> government. >> >> -s >> >> On Jan 27, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Ned Late wrote: >> >>> Let's give the coming Iraq election-- and those Iraqi >>> elections coming afterwards-- a chance, before we call >>> the current administration fascist. If Iraq eventually >>> succeeds in transforming into a democracy then the >>> Bush administration wins and will not be remembered as >>> fascist. >>> The victors write the history books. If the Axis had >>> won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in >>> German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Feb 2 00:41:47 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:41:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom Message-ID: <1107304907.30968@whirlwind.he.net> Samantha Atkins wrote: > It is rather difficult to evaluate general cultural conditions while > not sampling many cultural elements. Do you disagree that there is a > high level of fear operational in our culture a this time? Any reactionary fear from 11Sept2001 has greatly dissipated, almost to background level for most people in most places. What has changed is that most people are far more aware of yet another risk to life and limb, but most seem to treat it in the same way they treat airline disasters. There have been at least a half dozen different things that have gotten the public all riled up in a tizzy of fear over the last two decades, and the whole terrorism bit is just one of the more recent and substantive ones. I will grant that in a big picture sense, the threat from Islamic radicals is a much nastier and more difficult problem than most of the other issues that trigger reactions of fear, so some fear is warranted. One significant difference between the nature of the threat of Islamic radicalism versus most other threats that come along into the public's consciousness is that the jihadi threat suggests significant changes to the default calculus of dealing with the usual risks. For example, the impact of Islamic radicalism is far less random than most of the other "big threats" that cross the minds of the average person. For many of the other threat memes there is no intention to kill any specific persons, and so the primary solution is to simply get out of the way. Most really big disasters are like this. Not so with Islamic extremism. It is the difference between getting hit by a stray bullet and getting hit by a bullet intentionally aimed at you. Two very different strategies are required to protect one's self from both scenarios, and most people have never considered the latter one. cheers, j. andrew rogers From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Feb 2 00:43:17 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:43:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] the preparation Message-ID: <200502011843.AA542310556@longevitymeme.org> Something I fell across today that might be of interest: http://thepreparation.net/ Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 01:12:31 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <4733a8e374886af19298596134dd5f9c@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050202011232.3750.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's no more fear now than during the Cold War. Were the '90s fearless years? I'm more fearful because today because I'm middle aged & timid. Anyway, many are excited these days because of the war-- not fearful. It's like a film to them, with blood instead of tomato juice. >Do you disagree that there is a >high level of fear operational in our culture a this time? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregburch at gregburch.net Wed Feb 2 01:23:48 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:23:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <4ae3567e9ebc70f8a1dbf412772cfe5d@mac.com> Message-ID: I'm really sorry I dipped into this thread and I intend to take Eugen's gentle nudge to heart. No one on one side of this divide is going to change the minds of anyone on the other side here in this forum through the medium of email. But I'll say in a nutshell what I think needs to happen to combat what I see as essentially a cultural war of gargarntuan proportions: Enlightenment Modernism (of which I see transhumanism as the current cutting edge) is fighting a two-front war against Pre-modernism (militant religiosity, most especially militant Islam) and Post-modernism (e.g. cultural and moral relativism, anti-scientism). This is a conflict that will ultimately determine whether we can realize our post-human destiny or, alternatively, see a world ground down through a lack of progress and suffocation in its own waste products. There is only a VERY small core of Enlightenment Modernist advocates; the Enlightenment struggle is crippled by our very humanism that translates into a kind of civility that won't condemn Islam for the misogynistic warrior-cult that it is and has allowed much of our own cultural machinery to fall into the hands of crippling relativism. My prescription: recognize that whether we like it or not we ARE in a cultural war and act accordingly. GB > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha > Atkins > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:53 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom > > > OK. So what is your suggestion for how to deal with the level of > threat that you perceive? > > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 7:16 PM, Greg Burch wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Damien Broderick > > > >> At 05:24 PM 1/30/2005 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > > >>> > >>> A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people > >>> just > >>> shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can > >>> they > >>> sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that > >>> fear-mongering?!?!" > >> > >> Hang on, this is a rather different kind of story isn't it? > >> Muslims hither > >> and yon =/= a mad dictator with plans for world conquest. The > >> threat might > >> well be real, but as Steve Davies and others have argued it derives > >> from > >> different drivers. What worries me is that the analogy looks closer > >> to: > >> > >> < circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their > >> negativity about > >> Jews and gypsies all around the place? How can they sleep at > >> night or get > >> out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > > >> > >> That would not have been the most helpful response, either, but it > >> places > >> the burden of proof where it belongs, and foreshadows something > >> terrible > >> for the stigmatized groups. > >> > >> Damien Broderick > > > > I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between > > the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and islamofascism > > in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand in an analogous > > situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake up to and deal > > with the threat. > > > > As for "stigamatized people" -- go tell it to Theo van Gogh. > > > > GB > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Feb 2 02:40:46 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:40:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom References: Message-ID: <000f01c508d0$9a055e30$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Greg Burch" > I'm really sorry I dipped into this thread and I intend to take Eugen's > gentle nudge to heart. No one on one side of this divide is going to > change the minds of anyone on the other side here in this forum through > the medium of email. But I'll say in a nutshell what I think needs to > happen to combat what I see as essentially a cultural war of gargarntuan > proportions: Enlightenment Modernism (of which I see transhumanism as the > current cutting edge) is fighting a two-front war against Pre-modernism > (militant religiosity, most especially militant Islam) and Post-modernism > (e.g. cultural and moral relativism, anti-scientism). This is a conflict > that will ultimately determine whether we can realize our post-human > destiny or, alternatively, see a world ground down through a lack of > progress and suffocation in its own waste products. There is only a VERY > small core of Enlightenment Modernist advocates; the Enlightenment > struggle is crippled by our very humanism that translates !> into a kind > of civility that won't condemn Islam for the misogynistic warrior-cult > that it is and has allowed much of our own cultural machinery to fall > into the hands of crippling relativism. My prescription: recognize that > whether we like it or not we ARE in a cultural war and act accordingly. And now ... a word from our sponsor. Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed "In his million-copy bestseller Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond examined how and why Western civilizations developed the technologies and immunities that allowed them to dominate much of the world. Now in this brilliant companion volume, Diamond probes the other side of the equation: What caused some of the great civilizations of the past to collapse into ruin, and what can we learn from their fates?": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670033375/qid=1104761086/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4080716-5351264?v=glance&s=books ... and now back to our regular programming. Olga From dgc at cox.net Wed Feb 2 03:26:13 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:26:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) In-Reply-To: <000f01c508d0$9a055e30$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <000f01c508d0$9a055e30$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <42004855.9030707@cox.net> Olga Bourlin wrote: > And now ... a word from our sponsor. > > Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed > > "In his million-copy bestseller Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond > examined how and why Western civilizations developed the technologies > and immunities that allowed them to dominate much of the world. Now in > this brilliant companion volume, Diamond probes the other side of the > equation: What caused some of the great civilizations of the past to > collapse into ruin, and what can we learn from their fates?": > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670033375/qid=1104761086/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4080716-5351264?v=glance&s=books > > > ... and now back to our regular programming. > I am almost finished reading "Collapse." It is fascinating and every bit as thought-provoking as "Guns, Germs, and Steel." I'm currently reading the "Australia" chapter. Damien: you guys are in trouble, but I guess you knew that. The way Diamond tells it, your only hope is for an early Singularity. So far all of the chapters have been quite revealing. The best bit was the Norse colony on Greenland. This colony was marginal to begin with, and was finally pushed out by the Inuit, who arrived later and had superior technology for the environment. The Greenland Norse numbered about 5000 at the max, and they only managed to hold out for about 450 years. (i.e., a bit longer than the English colonists in North America so far.) This marginal colony, not Norway, was the origin of the failed attempt to colonize Vinland. Diamond comes across as an eco-realist rather than a tree-hugger, but in the end, civilizations fail due to deforestation driven by overpopulation. Diamond would strenuously object to this characterization, citing his five factors and all sorts of good stuff, but I came away from my reading with this strong impression. Read the book. From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 2 04:27:00 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:27:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] ai reading the internet again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502020427.j124RJC00425@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:19:30 -0800, spike wrote: > > .. > > his cheering section unfurled a banner which read: > > Don't Suck, Straigis! .. > > Suck is a word that originates from the sound that you make when you > do it... But BillK, there are so many different sounds that are possible while one sucks, for you do not specify precisely what actual activity one is doing when one sucks. Suddenly it occurred to me that we have achieved Orwell's vision of Newspeak. In 1984, Language evolves by devolving: it is simplified by eliminating so many synonyms. If Readers Digest were published in Newspeak, it might contain such features as "Toward Less Picturesque Speech" and "It Pays to Decrease Your Word Power". In Orwell's totalitarian nightmare "1984" O'Brien (who was strikingly prescient of the Dilbert character Wally) suggests that the plethora of words denoting shades of good and bad, for instance, could all be replaced with a combination of the simple unambiguous terms good, ungood, double, and plus. We now do the same with "suck", "doesn't suck" and "waay", with the number of "a"s denoting degree or extent. Example: 1984: Orwell is double plus good. 2005: Orwell waaaay doesn't suck. Everyone here, pleeeeeease read Orwell's 1984. Its a short book. Is that on the extropians reading list? Can we add it if not? spike From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 05:20:52 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:20:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <4ae3567e9ebc70f8a1dbf412772cfe5d@mac.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050201212025cea983@mail.gmail.com> I never liked the term Post-modernism too much, but here you are using it to group together two concepts (cultural and moral relativism, anti-scientism) that have nothing to do with each other. On the contrary I think that cultural and moral relativism is an application of the scientific method to cultural and moral thinking: recognizing that "absolutes" actually depend on who is measuring what and how. G. On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:23:48 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: But I'll say in a nutshell what I think needs to happen to combat what I see as essentially a cultural war of gargarntuan proportions: Enlightenment Modernism (of which I see transhumanism as the current cutting edge) is fighting a two-front war against Pre-modernism (militant religiosity, most especially militant Islam) and Post-modernism (e.g. cultural and moral relativism, anti-scientism). From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 2 05:47:08 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:47:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <1107304907.30968@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1107304907.30968@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2005, at 4:41 PM, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: >> It is rather difficult to evaluate general cultural conditions while >> not sampling many cultural elements. Do you disagree that there is a >> high level of fear operational in our culture a this time? > > > Any reactionary fear from 11Sept2001 has greatly dissipated, almost to > background level for most people in most places. What has changed is > that most people are far more aware of yet another risk to life and > limb, but most seem to treat it in the same way they treat airline > disasters. There have been at least a half dozen different things that > have gotten the public all riled up in a tizzy of fear over the last > two > decades, and the whole terrorism bit is just one of the more recent and > substantive ones. I will grant that in a big picture sense, the threat > from Islamic radicals is a much nastier and more difficult problem than > most of the other issues that trigger reactions of fear, so some fear > is > warranted. It is not the normal sort of fear that I had in mind. It is the fear that has been in my opinion purposefully multiplied and built upon for various forms of manipulation and gain that I allude to. Surely not everyone failed to notice the endless terror alerts, often for little or nothing, the grandiose charges without convictions, then endless mention of terror and terrorism in speeches, news, sales pitches for an amazingly wide breadth of things, to name only a few? I don't agree that Islamic terrorism is one of the most substantial or much nastier fears. It is far more likely that we will experience major dislocation and danger in our lives and large death tolls from economic collapse, "normal" war, quite naturally occurring epidemics, even climate change than it is that we will experience such dislocation from terrorist attacks. At the moment there is vastly more dislocation present in the world from our invasion of Iraq than from the acts of terrorists themselves. So something seems a tad out of kilter. > > One significant difference between the nature of the threat of Islamic > radicalism versus most other threats that come along into the public's > consciousness is that the jihadi threat suggests significant changes to > the default calculus of dealing with the usual risks. For example, the > impact of Islamic radicalism is far less random than most of the other > "big threats" that cross the minds of the average person. Apparently you have accepted the very carefully laid and well ground-in meme package of how nasty and central the threat of Islamic terrorism is. While I could be wrong, I believe you have been had. Oh, there is a real threat there. Just not remotely of the size and immediacy portrayed. > > For many of the other threat memes there is no intention to kill any > specific persons, and so the primary solution is to simply get out of > the way. Most really big disasters are like this. Not so with Islamic > extremism. It is the difference between getting hit by a stray bullet > and getting hit by a bullet intentionally aimed at you. Two very > different strategies are required to protect one's self from both > scenarios, and most people have never considered the latter one. > Intentions do not count for a lot when dead is dead and other threats are actually more immediate. A generalized hatred toward the US growing out of a faiths scorn for the infidels plus a lot of other factors, does not translate to intention to kill specific persons easily except maybe our leaders. Do you actually think it likely that an Islamic terrorist will do you in before anything else does? - samantha From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Feb 2 05:50:34 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:50:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) In-Reply-To: <42004855.9030707@cox.net> Message-ID: --> Dan Clemmensen > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:26 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) > I am almost finished reading "Collapse." It is fascinating and every bit > as thought-provoking as "Guns, Germs, and Steel." I think it got somewhat savaged on a variety of sensible grounds didn't it? Basically he's being Malthusian in his predictions for the future, based as they are on historical events that actually have very little in common with present day scenarios... http://www.davidbrin.com/collapse.html Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 2 06:06:26 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:06:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a24c750d61b26eab439b68ad8d2f9dc@mac.com> It might surprise some that i have more than a little agreement with Greg's postion. However it is important to remember that the cause of preserving cultural integrity and mutually irreconcilable views regarding questions of what it and isn't cultural superiority are behind some of the most anti-extropian historical events on record. I would hate to see us taking or encouraging backward steps in our attempt to preserve and protect that which we consider essential. This will be highly counter-productive. Frankly I think the best that can be hoped for is that the still in formation transhumanist culture supersedes and is ultimately seen as superior to all other existing cultures. This is not to say that much of the best will not be taken and incorporated from many cultures. It is rather to admit that all current human cultures, including our own, are inadequate for where we wish to go and needs must go. - samantha b 1, 2005, at 5:23 PM, Greg Burch wrote: > I'm really sorry I dipped into this thread and I intend to take > Eugen's gentle nudge to heart. No one on one side of this divide is > going to change the minds of anyone on the other side here in this > forum through the medium of email. But I'll say in a nutshell what I > think needs to happen to combat what I see as essentially a cultural > war of gargarntuan proportions: Enlightenment Modernism (of which I > see transhumanism as the current cutting edge) is fighting a two-front > war against Pre-modernism (militant religiosity, most especially > militant Islam) and Post-modernism (e.g. cultural and moral > relativism, anti-scientism). This is a conflict that will ultimately > determine whether we can realize our post-human destiny or, > alternatively, see a world ground down through a lack of progress and > suffocation in its own waste products. There is only a VERY small > core of Enlightenment Modernist advocates; the Enlightenment struggle > is crippled by our very humanism that translates ! > into a kind of civility that won't condemn Islam for the misogynistic > warrior-cult that it is and has allowed much of our own cultural > machinery to fall into the hands of crippling relativism. My > prescription: recognize that whether we like it or not we ARE in a > cultural war and act accordingly. > > GB > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha >> Atkins >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:53 PM >> To: ExI chat list >> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom >> >> >> OK. So what is your suggestion for how to deal with the level of >> threat that you perceive? >> >> >> On Jan 30, 2005, at 7:16 PM, Greg Burch wrote: >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Damien Broderick >>> >>>> At 05:24 PM 1/30/2005 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people >>>>> just >>>>> shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can >>>>> they >>>>> sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that >>>>> fear-mongering?!?!" >>>> >>>> Hang on, this is a rather different kind of story isn't it? >>>> Muslims hither >>>> and yon =/= a mad dictator with plans for world conquest. The >>>> threat might >>>> well be real, but as Steve Davies and others have argued it derives >>>> from >>>> different drivers. What worries me is that the analogy looks closer >>>> to: >>>> >>>> < circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their >>>> negativity about >>>> Jews and gypsies all around the place? How can they sleep at >>>> night or get >>>> out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > >>>> >>>> That would not have been the most helpful response, either, but it >>>> places >>>> the burden of proof where it belongs, and foreshadows something >>>> terrible >>>> for the stigmatized groups. >>>> >>>> Damien Broderick >>> >>> I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between >>> the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and >>> islamofascism >>> in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand in an analogous >>> situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake up to and deal >>> with the threat. >>> >>> As for "stigamatized people" -- go tell it to Theo van Gogh. >>> >>> GB >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 2 06:16:02 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:16:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Down Syndrome) Down Syndrome youth used as suicide bomber Message-ID: <42007022.30BE2953@mindspring.com> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/02/01/1107228703372.html?from=top5&oneclick=true [requires registration] Down syndrome youth used as suicide bomber By Paul McGeough, Baghdad February 2, 2005 Amar was 19, but he had the mind of a four-year-old. This handicap didn't stop the insurgency's hard men as they strapped explosives to his chest and guided him to a voting centre in suburban Al-Askan. And before yesterday's sunrise in Baghdad, his grieving parents loaded his broken remains on the roof of a taxi to lead a sorrowful procession to the holy city of Najaf. There, they gave him a ceremonial wash, shrouded him in white cotton and buried him next to the shrine of Imam Ali, the founder of their Shiite creed. On Sunday we witnessed an act of collective courage by an estimated 8 million Iraqis as they faced down terrorist threats of death and mayhem to vote in Iraq's first multi-party election in half a century. But the election day story of Amar is from the other side of human behaviour - in a region where too many have knowingly volunteered for an explosive death in the name of their god. He was chosen because he didn't know. He had Down syndrome or, as the Iraqis say, he's a mongoli, and when his parents, Ahmed, 42, and Fatima, 40, went to vote with their two daughters Amar was left in the family home. They presume that in their absence he set out to fill his day as he always did - wandering the streets of the neighbourhood until, usually, a friend or neighbour would bring him home around dusk. Al-Askan is a mixed and dangerous suburb. Yesterday the Iraqi police allowed The Age to advance only a few blocks into the area before ordering us out. The area around the family's home was the centre of a running gunfight between Shiites of the Al-Bahadel tribe and Sunnis of the Al-Ghedi tribe. But one of Amar's cousins, a 29-year-old teacher who asked not to be named, retreated to a distracted state in which Iraqis often discuss death to tell their story as best they can. "They must have kidnapped him," he said. "He was like a baby. He had nothing to do with the resistance and there was nothing in the house for him to make a bomb. He was Shiite. Why bomb his own people? "He was mindless, but he was mostly happy, laughing and playing with the children in the street. Now, his father is inconsolable; his mother cries all the time," the teacher said. After voting at 7.30am, Amar's parents joined their extended family for a celebration that became a lunch of chicken and rice, soup and orange juice, at the home of a relative. The sound of the explosion interrupted the party. But, the cousin said, it was assumed to be a mortar shell, a follow-up to the barrage across the city in the first hours of voting. "Everyone was very happy and excited, but news came that a mongoli had been a bomber. Ahmed and Fatima became distressed and they raced home. They got neighbours to search and one of them identified Amar's head where it lay on the pavement and his body was broken into pieces. "I have heard of them using dead people and donkeys and dogs to hide their bombs, but how could they do this to a boy like Amar?" Apparently, Amar triggered the bomb before he got to the intended target. It exploded while he was crossing open ground. Amar's father served in Saddam's army, but now he sells cigarettes in a street market in Al-Askan, an area of the city that also displayed bravery in the casting of votes on Sunday. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 2 06:32:56 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:32:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) Chairman Kim's dissolving kingdom Message-ID: <42007418.98DA11F6@mindspring.com> Editor's Note: I've had a deep interest in North Korea for over 30 years, so I include the following notable article: ["North Korea's totalitarian system is dissolving. The slow-motion exodus is the beginning of the end. Bush's re-election dealt a blow to Kim, 62, who had gambled on a win by John Kerry, the Democratic candidate. Kim lost his bet and now faces four more years of Bush, who says that he 'loathes' the North Korean leader. Observers await Kim's official birthday, February 16, to see if the state media accord him adulation."] < http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-524-1462207-524,00.html > -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Feb 2 06:36:28 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:36:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] How to post comments on the new blog/Jim #5 References: <31d7f2e1d87458ca3880550f93476ff6@mac.com><20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com><6.1.1.1.0.20050131214632.07402760@mail.popido.com> <015001c507e7$155f63e0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <00c501c508f1$865b7b50$1db71218@Nano> Hello again everyone, I just wanted to send a quick walkthrough of how to post your own comments to the new blog forum I mentioned in my last email. When you are at the front page of the blog and you read a post that you want to make a comment to, click on the link right below that particular post that says "0 comments" (or it might say another number instead of zero). Once you click that and go to the new page, scroll to the bottom and you will see the "post a comment" link, click that and you will then see the box form to write your comment in, click publish and that's it! Sorry I didn't include this yesterday. Kind regards Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 07:00:34 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:00:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed bill to ban cloning stirs debate about human life Message-ID: <470a3c5205020123004a9173dd@mail.gmail.com> Note how Wesley Smith adopts an irrational position, not "entirely secular" as he says but entirely taliban. Of course if the last sentence were to be made logically correct, it should be modified as: "Does human life have intrinsic moral value simply and merely because it is human? ? If the answer to this crucial question is yes, which I believe it must be, then we will do whatever is needed to save human lives". --- Columbia Daily Tribune - Is an embryo of 150 cells human? When does life begin? Does an embryo have a soul? Those questions and others were up for discussion last night as lawmakers held their first hearing of the year on a bill that would ban human cloning. The issue has zoomed into the public consciousness in recent months, and last night senators heard dueling testimonies from three scientists and an activist. The bill "would sacrifice a patient's hope for a cure because of a religious belief - a belief that other people of faith do not hold - a belief that the patient's own cells in a laboratory dish are more important than that patient's life." On the other side was Wesley Smith, a California attorney who has written extensively about bioethics issues and said that he approaches the issue from an "entirely secular" perspective. Smith argued that "cloning is cloning is cloning" and said that even therapeutic cloning is immoral because "it reduces nascent human life to the status of a mere commodity, a natural resource ripe for the harvest." Smith said many scientists have become "hyper-politicized" in their support of nuclear transfer and that cloning issues shouldn't be left to the scientific community to decide. "Does human life have intrinsic moral value simply and merely because it is human? ? If the answer to this crucial question is yes, which I believe it must be, then we will outlaw all human cloning," Smith said. http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Feb/20050201News005.asp From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 07:33:56 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:33:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Comment on Wesley Smith's blog In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205020123004a9173dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5205020123004a9173dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205020123331601ceb0@mail.gmail.com> I left the following comment on Wesley Smith's blog (http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/), referring to the article quoted in my previous post: http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Feb/20050201News005.asp (the fair newspaper description quoted below). --- Dear Mr. Smith, I wish to comment on the entry: "I testified alongside Dr. David Prentice in Missouri yesterday urging support of legislation that would outlaw all human cloning in the "Show Me" state. Here is a pretty fair newspaper description of the event", which does not have a dedicated comment area. The fair newspaper description says that you "approach the issue from an "entirely secular" perspective", and then: "Does human life have intrinsic moral value simply and merely because it is human? ? If the answer to this crucial question is yes, which I believe it must be, then we will outlaw all human cloning". Please allow me to say that your perspective, far from being "entirely secular", appears entirely taliban to me: as the statement attributed to Mr. Neaves in the article says, you are putting abstract considerations above the well-being of actual, thinking humans. I believe your statement quoted above should be modified as: "Does human life have intrinsic moral value simply and merely because it is human? ? If the answer to this crucial question is yes, which I believe it must be, then we will do whatever is needed to save human lives". From humania at t-online.de Wed Feb 2 07:59:38 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:59:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <20050131222015.M15555@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <005101c508fd$265af350$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Amara wrote: >[...] There's some > interesting psychology studies that could be made here, that is, with > how many decades a culture needs to bring a horror out in the public > consiousness enough to talk about it. This is absolutely true, Amara. It was only in the mid-eighties, that not only those germans who lived through the war woke up to the holocaust topic, but the shock wave splashed through the whole nation and seized the younger generations, too. Sure, there had been the suit against Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem 1960, a major event on german tv, as I recall it. Eichmann organised the railroad transports of jews from all over Europe to the death camps in poland. In the collective consciousness of the german society, Eichmann is the archetype of the "desk top perpetrator" who kills by perfecting the logistics, by pouring oil into the transport machinery. By the late sixities there had been some cases against Auschwitz perpetrators, which served as an eye opener for post war kids like me, but the information in those days were tiny bits compared to the huge loads of books, movies and documentaries you can consume today. TV shows in the style of history channel are very popular. Just to pick out one example, there has been a "show" last night, where they found the russian soldier who planted the red flag on the Reichstag in Berlin on May 1, 1945. This action had not been filmed by the Russians, because it was late at night when it happened. So it was repeated in day light with other soldiers than the original ones. So the TV managers got hold of the "true" hero and flew him into Berlin again after 60 years. In front of the new Reichstag (same building) this soldier met one of the german soldiers who had defended the "Reichskanzlei" (Hitler's office) on May 1, 1945. And certainly, it was a touching scene to see those two men in their mid-eighties walking towards one another and embrace each other after 60 years. To summarize it in a very populistic and simplicistic style - this topic is so complex, that email style writing almost seems ridiculous to cover it: In the mid-eighties, the germans woke up to full consciousness of the victim's sorrows and the holocaust topic. While in the last seven years or so, some taboos, that were suppressed for more than 60 years, are finally discussed. Interestingly enough, it is a discourse about the sorrows of the perpetrators. Most prominently: sexual violence against german women by soldiers of the red army and the british and us air raids against german cities. 162 cities were destroyed by bombings, some of them completetly, appr. 600.000 civilians died and a massive part of germany's historical identity burned down. > I typed in that passage (sorry for the typos) from the book in order > to show that it is never black and white in war, the victors are > absolutely never 'clean', but comparing 'degrees' of atrocity-behavior > inevitably leads to treating human lives abstractly, which I think is > wrong too. (Dead is dead, each one is another precious life gone.) By the way, I can confirm the findings of Modris Ekstein, that defeated germans exposed a strange kind of pride of having started the greatest disaster the world had ever known. I stumbled across this hidden "pride" quite a few times, spooky moments of disbelief and horror. Yes, the behaviour of the victors. Discussions of these air raids against german towns were absolutely un-PC from 1945 till 2000 because they implicitely seemed to qualify and relativize the holocaust. This is an extraordinarily difficult moral topic. Didn't "we" - the german nation - deserve this fire from the skies, because of the inexplicable crimes we committed? I cannot dive deeper into this topic now. It has so much to do with supposed revanchism and putting Churchill and Roosevelt on the same sadistic level as Hitler and his atrocities. But I have read the book, that triggered the whole discussion. Joerg Friedrich. Der Brand. I am sure it will be translated into English. I will refrain from talking about it, but you should try to get a copy when it is released. But there is this singular memory, that flashed up when I read the book. You know, in the 1960s there was this saying, which, translated literally, went like this: "Oh, boy, you are completely in the bucket" and it meant you were knocked out, severely punched, something in that direction. As a 6 or 7 year old boy, I was asking my mother what that could mean. Why the bucket? She did not know. One of her sisters had witnessed the most devastating air raid against the city of Braunschweig (half way between Hamburg and Berlin, for list readers, Amara knows it). And she once mentioned that after the raid people were carrying their burned relatives to the cemetary in 10-litre-buckets, because they had been shrunk to a size that fit into the very water buckets that were used to extinguish the fires. But as they were phosphor bombs, the water only intensified the firestorm. Nobody believed her that a burnt adult person could fit into a ten litre bucket. When I read the book "Der Brand" (The fire) I found out it was true that adults were shrunk to the size to fit into a bucket and that these bodies were carried to the cemetaries in water buckets. The saying "Oh boy, you are completely in the bucket", certainly derived from that special war memory. Amara, maybe you remember the dinner we had in Braunschweig, 2 years ago. This italian restaurant is located exactly on the edge of the destruction epicenter of Braunschweig. Left from the restaurant you see all the pretty houses that were built around 1900. But walking in the right direction, deeper into the city, you only see the dull and practical buildings that were erected in the 1950s. The whole core, the middle age nucleus of the town (wooden houses) was erased in the fire. > Thanks for talking so openly and generously about your experiences. > Sometime this summer or fall when the group I work in begins to write > macros for the many-step sequencing commands for our Dawn instrument > (*), I'll see if I can name one 'humania': maybe it will be the set of > commands to clear the memory buffer ... ;-) > > > Amara > www.amara.com > > (*) http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ Hey, you know, Hubert supposedly means: being able to store massive chunks of memories. Complete bullshit, okay, but no kidding, I read this in a popular book about names in the 1970. In this respect, part of my first name combined with my familiy name which, I think, does not need any interpretation, is a strange combination with the atmosphere of uniting opposites, isn't it. Therefore humania as the name of a macro that erases memory, would be fantastic, I love this kind of humour. Cheers Hubert From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 09:48:04 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:48:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <4ae3567e9ebc70f8a1dbf412772cfe5d@mac.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520502020148508f52a0@mail.gmail.com> The "misogynistic warrior-cult" of islam is clearly the opposite of the "crippling relativism" that you dislike in modern western culture: they believe in their holy war against the west with a fervor untainted by doubt, complex ideas, and crippling relativism. So it seems to me that if you disapprove relativism in our culture, you should approve its absence in theirs. Or are just stating that we are good and they are bad without accepting the burden of proof? Or have I misunderstood something? G. On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:23:48 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: the Enlightenment struggle is crippled by our very humanism that translates ! into a kind of civility that won't condemn Islam for the misogynistic warrior-cult that it is and has allowed much of our own cultural machinery to fall into the hands of crippling relativism. From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Feb 2 16:06:32 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:06:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ends and The Means Message-ID: <00a601c50941$2a3e3010$6600a8c0@brainiac> Neener neener! notwithstanding, and with apologies to Messrs. Burch and Leitl, but the discourse of what we do and how we get there is an important one and something we need to keep alive IMO: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL&nl=fix Come See Our Brutal Democracy Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or, you know, not By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist Wednesday, February 2, 2005 Ah, the violent march of democracy. Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way watch out for the snipers on the roofs. It really is amazing, watching the deeply flawed system of democracy take hold in a raw and decimated nation like a thorny weed cracking through shattered concrete. All people deserve to be free and now Iraqis have a tiny bloody taste of it and this is always, always a good thing. I am not kidding. So, should we be proud? Is Bush's thuggish and illegal pre-emptive attack strategy justified? Are Iraq's first-ever elections a defining moment in American political history? Are we all righteous and good and holy, despite all the dead bodies and the hatred? Well, sort of. But then again, not really. Should Bush get some credit for all the cheering Iraqis who are now breathing sort of free? Well, no. Not even close. While it's always heartwarming to see a brutalized and disheartened people flex their newfound freedom for the first time, the costs of this teetering, fragile, force-fed, implode-at-any-moment democracy are nauseating and appalling. You already know the numbers: $300 billion, over 1,400 dead U.S. soldiers and over 10,000 permanently wounded and countless thousands of dead innocent Iraqi civilians -- and many, many more to come. But let us not forget the biggest disclaimer of all: Not a single one of BushCo's alleged reasons for dragging our fractured and bankrupt nation into one of the most brutal wars since Vietnam has actually proved valid or justifiable. The disgusting array of WMD/nuclear/biotoxin lies and deceptions are not suddenly erased because we set up some polling places. How quickly we forget: A democratic Iraq was never the reason Bush forced us into this war. Iraq's fledgling democracy is a pleasant side effect, an bonus PR move, a heartwarming and patriotic patina of bogus humanitarianism BushCo is now trying to slather over one of the most disastrous and inept military efforts in recent history. It makes for terrific photo-ops. It makes for miserable and debilitating foreign policy. Look. Democracy is good. Treasonous BushCo dishonesty and misprision and an outright ignorance regarding exit strategies and the true costs of war, are not. Republicans and Bush apologists are quick to ignore, in this momentary orgy of political spin and PR, how not a single one of the problems Iraq faced before the elections have been solved. The brutal insurgent violence is only increasing. U.S. soldiers are dying in record numbers. Iraq is a violent mess. And Bush just asked for $80 billion more from the broke U.S. economy to fund the occupation, with no end in sight. Let's just say it outright: The ends do not justify the means. A barely democratic Iraq is fine and good, but you well know that if Bush had mumbled to the nation three years and $300 billion ago that we were going to start bombing this piss-poor country back to the stone age and gut the U.S. economy and put thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis in death's way to deliver it, all while sending the nastiest possible message to the world and actually increasing the threat of terrorism while turning our backs on every major U.S. ally, I doubt many Americans would have giddily waved the flag of support (except maybe Ann Coulter, who apparently loves anything involving guns and dead foreigners). Let's put it another way: Here is your choice, America: $300 billion and massive international disrespect and a huge pile of dead American soldiers in an effort to force a fragile democracy onto a torn and fractured Iraq by ousting their useless dictator who was, let us repeat, no threat to us, or to anyone, and who was, in fact, our ally, until he dared to threaten our oil. Or: $300 billion to assist struggling nations and battle AIDS and protect the planet, to evolve our international relationships and set up treaties and unifying alliances and maybe even have a little left over to help fix our own schools, maybe help all those destitute American city upgrade their hospitals and fix their homeless problems and even maybe launch a national health care plan, spend that money on trying to solve a huge host of social ills plaguing this crumbling beautiful egomaniacal empire we call home. Which do you choose? What cost democracy? Where do you draw your lines? Bush does not get credit for Iraq's fleeting glimpse of democracy for the exact same reason you don't give the tsunami credit for cleansing the streets of Indonesia. His motives were never, repeat never, to bring democracy to Iraq. His motives were to oust a pipsqueak dictator who threatened our access to 10 percent of the world's oil. It was about power, and regional control, and ego, and petroleum. Period. Does this matter anymore? Iraq gets a glimmer of democratic hope and all lies and broken international laws and oily policy shifts are forgiven? Hardly. Because if this is our new agenda, if we are suddenly the Hammer of Democracy who slams our political system onto every country we feel deserves it and damn the fiscal, emotional, spiritual, and human costs, well, let's get to it, already. Let's right now start preparing for U.S. forces to march into that pesky repressive China. Let us look forward to BushCo declaring war on Iran, and then North Korea, and then huge parts of non-democratic Africa. Any day now, yes? How about Egypt? And Pakistan? And Jordan? Dictatorships and monarchies and repressive, anti-democratic oligarchies, all. Man, we'll be at war until 2045! Whee! What about poor, beautiful Nepal, where the king just shut down the government and closed all the airports and severed communication with the rest of the world, and over 10,000 people have died in rebel fighting and the military is patrolling the streets and citizens are terrified and repressed and democracy is dying on the vine? Shouldn't we be marching in there next week, Georgie? Saddle up, cowpokes! Oh wait. Won't happen. Reason: Not convenient. Not strategically lucrative. No oil reserves. No real power gain, except for maybe Iran, which is why BushCo is already busy working with Israel to map out bombing strategies. In fact, to prove we don't really give a crap for the lovely "march of democracy" Republicans so love to gloat over, let's note right here how the U.S. regularly gives billions in aid to those very same repressive, dictator-friendly burgs of Egypt and Jordan and Pakistan. Ah, flagrant hypocrisy, thy name is Bush. Look. Does America have a responsibility to the world to promote peace and democratic ideals in the world whenever possible? Hell yes. Does the world's richest and most gluttonous superpower have an obligation to intervene when absolutely necessary and help repressed peoples taste freedom and emerge from the shadow of evil dictators? You're damn right. But not this way. Not at this cost. Not via a staggering and soul-mauling string of lies and misprision and a brutish foreign policies that only alienate and aggravate and inflame. Not through torture tactics and economic plundering and fear stratagems designed to keep the exhausted American populace from asking too many questions about this administration's real motives. And not by way of a thuggish pre-emptive attack-first policy that goes against everything America has stood for (i.e.; defense, containment, peace) for the past 100 years. Meanwhile, in related news, an international team of scientists and researchers announced that the world has roughly ten years before the effects of global warming become permanent and irreversible. Before the Gulf Stream is permanently weakened and massive ice shelves melt and the world is plunged more deeply in danger than we could ever imagine. You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17 times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe, something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you know, a thought. Go democracy! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 2 18:22:05 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:22:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (IUFO) The Next Digital Divide How biopolitics could reshape our understanding of left and right Message-ID: <42011A4D.81CE267@mindspring.com> ?By Alyssa Ford, Utne.com January 2005 Issue Didn't think it was possible for the left to be anymore splintered? Welcome to the world of biopolitics, a fledgling political movement that promises to make mortal enemies out of one-time allies -- such as back-to-nature environmentalists and technophile lefties -- and close friends of traditional foes, such as anti-GMO activists and evangelicals. Biopolitics, a term coined by Trinity College professor James Hughes, places pro-technology transhumanists on one pole and people who are suspicious of technology on the other. According to Hughes < http://www.changesurfer.com/Acad/DemocraticTranshumanism.htm >, transhumanists are members of "an emergent philosophical movement which says that humans can and should become more than human through technological enhancements." The term transhuman is shorthand for transitional human -- people who are in the process of becoming "posthuman" or "cyborgs." It may sound like a movement founded by people who argue over Star Trek minutia on the Internet, but transhumanists are far more complex and organized than one might imagine. They got their start in the early 1980s as a small band of libertarian technophiles who advocated for any advancement that could extend human life indefinitely or eliminate disease and disability. Their members were some of the first to sign up to be cryogenically frozen, for example. As biotech and bioethics issues such as cloning and stem cell research gained importance on the international agenda, the transhumanist philosophy grew in popularity and became more diverse. For instance, several neo-nazi groups who saw technological advancement as the way to achieve eugenics embraced the transhumanist label. Transhumanism pierced the popular culture when the Coalition of Artists and Life Forms (CALF) formed in the 1990s. This small band of artists and writers has a shared excitement for technology and a distrust of the corporations that mishandle it. In 1997, a group of American and European leftist-transhumanists (including Dr. Hughes) formed the World Transhumanist Association < http://transhumanism.org/index.php/th/ > to advocate for technology not only as a means to improve the human race and increase longevity, but as a tool for social justice. Unlike their libertarian forebearers, these "democratic transhumanists" advocate for moderate safeguards on new technology, such as drug trials. In an exhaustive article about various factions under the transhuman label < http://www.changesurfer.com/Acad/TranshumPolitics.htm >, Hughes identifies 11 subgroups, including "disability transhumanists" who argue for their right to technology and "gay transhumanists" who want children conceived outside of the opposite-sex paradigm (i.e., cloning). More- < http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specials_2005-01/articles/11539-1.html > This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Wed Feb 2 19:02:25 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:02:25 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ends and The Means In-Reply-To: <00a601c50941$2a3e3010$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <00a601c50941$2a3e3010$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <200502021702.25637.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Em Quarta 02 Fevereiro 2005 14:06, Olga Bourlin escreveu: > Let's put it another way: Here is your choice, America: $300 billion and > massive international disrespect and a huge pile of dead American soldiers > in an effort to force a fragile democracy onto a torn and fractured Iraq by > ousting their useless dictator who was, let us repeat, no threat to us, or > to anyone, and who was, in fact, our ally, until he dared to threaten our > oil. > > > Or: $300 billion to assist struggling nations and battle AIDS and protect > the planet, to evolve our international relationships and set up treaties > and unifying alliances and maybe even have a little left over to help fix > our own schools, maybe help all those destitute American city upgrade their > hospitals and fix their homeless problems and even maybe launch a national > health care plan, spend that money on trying to solve a huge host of social > ills plaguing this crumbling beautiful egomaniacal empire we call home. This is the sort of thinking hability that most people seem to lack, the habulity to judge something not like or it happened or nothing happened, but or it happened, or all efforts done upon it were directed to other things. Usually, in my opinion, this is the main argument for pre-emptive atacks, and also for those who say that religion is a very good thing, saying the good things done by priests. I remember that once here someone said that every priest is a scientist who could have been, even though this is an exageration, it is true to say that he is a useful person that could have been more. I really doubt that in this kind of argument, there are still those democracy at any cost defenders.... Diego (Log At) From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 2 19:17:15 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:17:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Godsquad gadgets Message-ID: <4201273B.A1FE0B9D@mindspring.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4227417.stm GodPods, holy golf balls and JCUK Most people have heard of an iPod, but what about a GodPod? It is a solar-powered speaking Bible which fits neatly into the pocket, is multi-lingual and designed to help people who have reading difficulties. This ecclesiastical marvel is one of the products up for an award during a church exhibition in Belfast this week. The GodPod will help people who have sight problems Other items vying for the "My Church Needs One of Those" award are "holy" golf balls and t-shirts with the JCUK (Jesus Christ United King) logo. A Bible which bursts into flames at the touch of a button will also be on show during the Christian Resources Exhibition at the King's Hall. Brad Turkington, from the company which distributes the GodPod, said nearly half the world's population was unable to read, and about 42 million were blind. The idea is that churches will buy the GodPod in bulk and then distribute them. "For most of these people, the only way to communicate is by the spoken word," said the Magherafelt man. "We want to help them hear. You can get the whole Bible on this, in any language. "It can be solar powered for the Third world, because a third of the world cannot read. How do you get a Bible to them? If you get a cassette to them they either tape over it or they don't have any electricity. "With it being solar powered, it means they can use it for up to 6,000 hours." He said the company had just produced the complete New Testament, which is being launched at the exhibition. "We have been very successful in Arabic countries, where some mission organisations have been able to get it into Libya and into Egypt," said Mr Turkington. We like to think we have the full A to Z of everything that church leaders would need in their churches Brett Pitchfork Event director The competition will be judged on the first day of the three-day conference. Finalists will have three minutes to pitch their product to the judges - a four-strong panel of clergy. Organisers say the exhibition, which features 150 exhibitors, is about making a traditional message accessible to a new generation. Event director Brett Pitchfork said: "We like to think we have the full A to Z of everything that church leaders would need in their churches. "This competition gives visitors a chance to see some of the more intriguing new products." Seminars are also taking place including a demonstration of belleplates, an "affordable" alternative to handbells. JCUK t-shirts are also featuring at the King's Hall event Engineer Maurice Davis, who created the belleplates, said he invented them "during a moment of divine inspiration". "Musical wallpaper scrapers, is how my wife describes them," he laughed. "They are lightweight and also much more affordable. Because they are not made of bronze but made of aluminium they are much lower in cost, easier to produce. "We have them in use with schools, churches and youth groups, all the way through to people in sheltered accommodation and nursing homes." The exhibition also features sound systems, Bible software, organs, chairs, vestments and books. Delegates can also find out about how to spread the gospel to children through puppetry. The exhibition runs from 1200 GMT on Wednesday until Friday. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 2 20:21:23 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:21:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] the preparation In-Reply-To: <200502011843.AA542310556@longevitymeme.org> References: <200502011843.AA542310556@longevitymeme.org> Message-ID: <42013643.90409@neopax.com> Reason . wrote: >Something I fell across today that might be of interest: > >http://thepreparation.net/ > >Reason >Founder, Longevity Meme >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 2 20:54:06 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:54:06 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? Message-ID: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> Seems a load of my posts bounced this morning, but a test reply has just got through. What's going on? What is the censorship policy (and I don't mean the FAQ)? -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 2 21:23:27 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:23:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> References: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050202212327.GZ1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 08:54:06PM +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Seems a load of my posts bounced this morning, but a test reply has just > got through. > What's going on? > What is the censorship policy (and I don't mean the FAQ)? Speaking of which, Verizon has been blocking mail from Europe. I'm not sure what will happen with this message; probably it will come through, given that the ExI mail server isn't over here. If anyone from Verizon is reading this, please send me an ACK. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 21:34:34 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:34:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050202213434.68085.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sprint's entire US backbone went down this morning. I too got messages bounced...I also posted a notice about this to the bbs but it doesn't seem to post postings to the list. --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Seems a load of my posts bounced this morning, but a test reply has > just > got through. > What's going on? > What is the censorship policy (and I don't mean the FAQ)? > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 2 22:02:30 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:02:30 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <20050202213434.68085.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050202213434.68085.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42014DF6.5060309@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Sprint's entire US backbone went down this morning. I too got messages >bounced...I also posted a notice about this to the bbs but it doesn't >seem to post postings to the list. > > > That's a relief! I had visions of migrating to the Transtopian list and being kicked from that for being *too* PC... Deja vu. Seems I'm always being asked to leave various orgs because I've ruffled the feathers of the PC membership by being too little or too much. Reminds me of the story of the three bears. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.3 - Release Date: 31/01/2005 From emerson at singinst.org Wed Feb 2 22:17:33 2005 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:17:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] EDGE at TED 2005 - 02/25/05 Message-ID: <200502022226.j12MQQC17633@tick.javien.com> >From http://www.edge.org/ted05_index.html: TED 2005 Conference | Monterey, CA | 11:00 am-12:30 pm | Wednesday, February 25 An Edge Reality Club Meeting at TED (Tech, Entertainment, Design) Monterey Marriott Hotel - San Carlos Ballroom (Mezzanine level) SCIENCE AT THE EDGE: REBOOTING BIOLOGY Three of the World's Leading Scientists Ask Each Other the Questions They are Asking Themselves Panelists: Rodney Brooks, Ray Kurzweil, J. Craig Venter Moderator: John Brockman Limited seating available to the public | Admission free ~~~ Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute P.O. Box 50182 Palo Alto, CA 94303 Phone: 650.353.6063 emerson at singinst.org http://www.singinst.org/ From pharos at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 22:43:46 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:43:46 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <20050202212327.GZ1404@leitl.org> References: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> <20050202212327.GZ1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:23:27 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Speaking of which, Verizon has been blocking mail from Europe. > I'm not sure what will happen with this message; probably it will come > through, given that the ExI mail server isn't over here. > ZDNet has a report that email is about to breakdown completely as spam blacklists stop working due to a new spam method. Spam levels are about to skyrocket, according to experts who warned this week that spammers have developed a new way of delivering their wares. According to the SpamHaus Project--an U.K.-based antispam compiler of blacklists that block 8 billion messages a day--a new piece of malicious software has been created that takes over a PC. This "zombie" computer is then used to send spam via the mail server of that PC's Internet service provider. This means the junk mail appears to come from the ISP, making it very hard for an antispam blacklist to block it. ......... ISPs in the United States may have already been hit. "We've seen a surge in spam coming from major ISPs. Now all of the ISPs are having large amounts of spam going out from their mail servers," Linford said. This will cause serious problems for the e-mail infrastructure, as it is impractical to block mail with domain names from large ISPs. Linford predicts that ISPs will see a growth in the volume of bulk mail they send and receive over the next two months, with spam levels rising from 75 percent of all e-mail to around 95 percent within a year. "The e-mail infrastructure is beginning to fail," Linford warned. "You'll see huge delays in e-mail and servers collapsing. It's the beginning of the e-mail meltdown." Linford said that ISPs need to act fast to take control of the problem. "They've got to throttle the number of e-mails coming from ADSL accounts. They are going to have to act quickly to clean incoming viruses. ISPs have so much spam--they are too understaffed to call people up and tell them they have Trojans on their machines. And no one would know what you're talking about." Antispam company MessageLabs confirmed Linford's findings. "This ups the ante in the need for filters," said Mark Sunner, chief technology officer for MessageLabs. "It makes it more difficult for people who compile blacklists, which is why spammers are doing this. It will put more pressure on ISPs to take greater interest in the traffic they carry and filter at source." ------------------ It's about time too. ISPs could have put a stop to spam years ago. BillK From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Feb 3 00:56:04 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:56:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <20050202212327.GZ1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: I tried to post this morning -- are we back up? > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:23 PM > To: dirk at neopax.com; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? > > > On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 08:54:06PM +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > Seems a load of my posts bounced this morning, but a test reply > has just > > got through. > > What's going on? > > What is the censorship policy (and I don't mean the FAQ)? > > Speaking of which, Verizon has been blocking mail from Europe. > I'm not sure what will happen with this message; probably it will come > through, given that the ExI mail server isn't over here. > > If anyone from Verizon is reading this, please send me an ACK. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Feb 3 01:04:04 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:04:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050201212025cea983@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: [This is a post I tried to send early this morning CST. I have a crunch coming on at work, so I may not see replies for a while.] > -----Original Message----- > From: Giu1i0Pri5c0 > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:48 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom > > > The "misogynistic warrior-cult" of islam is clearly the opposite of > the "crippling relativism" that you dislike in modern western culture: > they believe in their holy war against the west with a fervor > untainted by doubt, complex ideas, and crippling relativism. > So it seems to me that if you disapprove relativism in our culture, > you should approve its absence in theirs. > Or are just stating that we are good and they are bad without > accepting the burden of proof? > Or have I misunderstood something? > G. There does seem to be a misunderstanding. Doubt and skepticism are crucial elements of the modern Enlightenment world-view. And of course it is just the lack of this that marks the premodern mind-set as so perfectly exemplified in salafist Islam, as you rightly observe. However, it is the slide from skepticism to cultural relativism that marks the self-destructive "post-modern turn" as Best and Kellner so aptly called it in the title of their book on the subject. But just as the systematic doubt that is the crucial foundation of the scientific method doesn't bar one from finally reaching conclusions in science, so cultural skepticism need not -- as the most radical postmodernists who have seized power in academia and elsewhere in our cultural apparatus in the west conclude -- reduce one to moral bankruptcy. Bertrand Russell once described the result of the scientific method as "successive approximations of the truth." The same can be said of Enlightenment modern morality and cultural values. It is the post-modern rejection of the concept of moral truth that is, in my opinion the chief weapon in the salafist Muslim warrior's arsenal against the concept of progress. This has led to the nearly universal alliance between the left and Islamic radicals in the West. We have the absurd result of so-called 'progressives" being unwilling to lift a finger to oppose the most horrific oppression of women in the Muslim world when 70 years ago they lined up in droves to go to Spain to fight the fascists -- where is the 21st century equivalent of the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade" in which communists and socialists from the U.S. fought and died in Spain? where is the "Susan B. Anthony Brigade?" Now we are told "it's their culture -- if you condemn them you are being a cultural imperialist!" Long-time leftists like Christopher Hitchens who have pointed out this fundamental hypocrisy have been vilified and summarily excommunicated from the fold. To even pronounce his name in the midst of the Chomskyite faithful is to risk launching an avalanche of opprobrium. How often do we hear the left condemn what has happened to Salman Rushdie? Where is Hollywood when a fellow filmmaker like Theo van Gogh is murdered by a religious fanatic? The silence from the Western mainstream cultural left about these topics is deafening. If they hadn't been enfeebled by post-modernism, we'd see feminist commando groups parachuting into Iran, guerrilla filmmakers infiltrating Egypt, insurgent poets making hit-and-run attacks on madrassas in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. At the risk of constantly citing myself, I urge you to read the text of my talk at Extro 5 on this subject: http://www.gregburch.net/progress.html This talk was given just three months before 911. As to accepting "the burden of proof," I do. After 911, I realized that I had a huge gap in my knowledge of human culture and worked for two years to remedy it, reading literally tens of thousands of pages about Islamic history, theology and culture. I am more than willing to shoulder the burden of proof; I just ask that we be willing upon considering the evidence to actually make some judgments. GB From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 3 01:47:22 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:47:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <420182AA.6070106@cox.net> Reason wrote: >--> Dan Clemmensen > > >>Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:26 PM >>To: ExI chat list >>Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) >> >> > > > >>I am almost finished reading "Collapse." It is fascinating and every bit >>as thought-provoking as "Guns, Germs, and Steel." >> >> > >I think it got somewhat savaged on a variety of sensible grounds didn't it? >Basically he's being Malthusian in his predictions for the future, based as >they are on historical events that actually have very little in common with >present day scenarios... > >http://www.davidbrin.com/collapse.html > > > Have you read it? Diamond cites Malthus explicitly in the chapter on Rwanda. He does not harp on overpopulation the other chapters. He is also quite clear on his methods. The prologue alone is worth reading: it gives a concise explanation of the difference between controlled experiments (lab science) and natural experiments (observational science.) Certain areas of inquiry are simply not amenable to laboratory science. Such fields include for example astrophysics, cosmology, and the collapse of civilizations. You study the simple cases and attempt to derive theories that may apply to more complicated cases. Sometimes you are wrong, but your theories and your experimental evidence are public knowledge in the sense of http://info.med.yale.edu/therarad/summers/ziman.htm So yes, you can agree that some of Diamond's natural experiments are trivial or otherwise irrelevant. I personally thought most of them were valid. Note that Diamond is firmly embedded in today's technology his book is all about exponential growth in the use of resources, without any analysis of exponential changes in efficiency or effectiveness that we extropians spend our time analyzing. However, Diamond does note on several occasions that we are in a race between these two exponentials, and that a race between two exponentials is very difficult to predict. I am an extremist Singulatarian, so I think we (humanity) will win the race. I'm not worried about worldwide collapse due to population-driven overpopulation. However, my analysis does not prevent me from admiring Diamond's work. I find each of his analyses fascinating. I really did not like the way he lumped Thor Heyerdahl and Von Daniken, but this is probably because Aku Aku was my favorite book when I was twelve years old. From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 3 02:28:24 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 21:28:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ends and The Means In-Reply-To: <200502021702.25637.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <00a601c50941$2a3e3010$6600a8c0@brainiac> <200502021702.25637.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <42018C48.3050305@cox.net> Diego Caleiro wrote: > >Em Quarta 02 Fevereiro 2005 14:06, Olga Bourlin escreveu: > > >>Let's put it another way: Here is your choice, America: $300 billion and >>massive international disrespect and a huge pile of dead American soldiers >>in an effort to force a fragile democracy onto a torn and fractured Iraq by >>ousting their useless dictator who was, let us repeat, no threat to us, or >>to anyone, and who was, in fact, our ally, until he dared to threaten our >>oil. >> >> >>Or: $300 billion to assist struggling nations and battle AIDS and protect >>the planet, to evolve our international relationships and set up treaties >>and unifying alliances and maybe even have a little left over to help fix >>our own schools, maybe help all those destitute American city upgrade their >>hospitals and fix their homeless problems and even maybe launch a national >>health care plan, spend that money on trying to solve a huge host of social >>ills plaguing this crumbling beautiful egomaniacal empire we call home. >> >> > > >This is the sort of thinking hability that most people seem to lack, the >habulity to judge something not like or it happened or nothing happened, but >or it happened, or all efforts done upon it were directed to other things. >Usually, in my opinion, this is the main argument for pre-emptive atacks, and >also for those who say that religion is a very good thing, saying the good >things done by priests. I remember that once here someone said that every >priest is a scientist who could have been, even though this is an >exageration, it is true to say that he is a useful person that could have >been more. > > > These are not the only two choices. The third choice is for the government to not spend the $300B at all. By posing the binary choice, immediately drive your reader into one of two positions, neither of which makes a lot of sense. In my opinion, we should never have invaded Iraq: there was no threat there, and the costs outweigh the benefits. On the other hand the US government does has not shown any expertise in using money to solve the problems Olga cites in the alternative. At least for the purely domestic problems, it's probably better to simply reduce the deficit (i.e., don't spend it at all.) This approach has obvious massive impacts on the economy and historically generates prosperity, which in turn generates money for private (and effective) approaches to problems outside of the US. From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Feb 3 06:01:35 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:01:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Godsquad gadgets In-Reply-To: <4201273B.A1FE0B9D@mindspring.com> References: <4201273B.A1FE0B9D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Wow, a bible that bursts into flames when I touch it! Gotta have one of those. Should be able to scare off lots of fundies with such gear. Of course it might lead to a forced exorcism. -samantha On Feb 2, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4227417.stm > > GodPods, holy golf balls and JCUK > Most people have heard of an iPod, but what about a GodPod? > It is a solar-powered speaking Bible which fits neatly into the > pocket, is multi-lingual and designed to help people who have reading > difficulties. > > This ecclesiastical marvel is one of the products up for an award > during a church exhibition in Belfast this week. > > > > The GodPod will help people who have sight problems > Other items vying for the "My Church Needs One of Those" award > are "holy" golf balls and t-shirts with the JCUK (Jesus Christ United > King) logo. > > A Bible which bursts into flames at the touch of a button will also > be on show during the Christian Resources Exhibition at the King's > Hall. > > Brad Turkington, from the company which distributes the GodPod, said > nearly half the world's population was unable to read, and about 42 > million were blind. > > The idea is that churches will buy the GodPod in bulk and then > distribute them. > > "For most of these people, the only way to communicate is by the > spoken word," said the Magherafelt man. > > "We want to help them hear. You can get the whole Bible on this, in > any language. > > "It can be solar powered for the Third world, because a third of the > world cannot read. How do you get a Bible to them? If you get a > cassette to them they either tape over it or they don't have any > electricity. > > "With it being solar powered, it means they can use it for up to > 6,000 hours." > > He said the company had just produced the complete New Testament, > which is being launched at the exhibition. > > > "We have been very successful in Arabic countries, where some mission > organisations have been able to get it into Libya and into Egypt," > said Mr Turkington. > > We like to think we have the full A to Z of everything that church > leaders would need in their churches > > Brett Pitchfork > Event director > > > The competition will be judged on the first day of the three-day > conference. Finalists will have three minutes to pitch their product > to the judges - a four-strong panel of clergy. > > > Organisers say the exhibition, which features 150 exhibitors, is > about making a traditional message accessible to a new generation. > > Event director Brett Pitchfork said: "We like to think we have the > full A to Z of everything that church leaders would need in their > churches. > > "This competition gives visitors a chance to see some of the more > intriguing new products." > > Seminars are also taking place including a demonstration of > belleplates, an "affordable" alternative to handbells. > > > JCUK t-shirts are also featuring at the King's Hall event > > > Engineer Maurice Davis, who created the belleplates, said he invented > them "during a moment of divine inspiration". > > "Musical wallpaper scrapers, is how my wife describes them," he > laughed. > > "They are lightweight and also much more affordable. Because they are > not made of bronze but made of aluminium they are much lower in cost, > easier to produce. > > "We have them in use with schools, churches and youth groups, all the > way through to people in sheltered accommodation and nursing homes." > > > The exhibition also features sound systems, Bible software, organs, > chairs, vestments and books. > > Delegates can also find out about how to spread the gospel to > children through puppetry. > > The exhibition runs from 1200 GMT on Wednesday until Friday. > > > -- > "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, > Frank Rice > > > Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > > > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * > U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program > ------------ > Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List > TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia > veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 07:17:54 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:17:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050202160242.24413.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <470a3c520502020148508f52a0@mail.gmail.com> <20050202160242.24413.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> Not being a good post-modernist doesn't bother me, I am not too interested in being a faithful orthodox member of one or another -ism. I try developing my own worldview, and if it fits well a -ism good, otherwise too bad but I don't really care so much. Of course I don't refuse to acknowledge the fact that our world is a "us or them" world. It is a unfortunate fact but it remains a fact. I would like to see myself as part of a big human family, but I know that if I were to go to Iraq they would probably see me as one of "them" and behead me. So I have no practical choice but seeing me as one of "us". And I never questioned that if one is attacked the smartest thing he can do is fighting back. But... There is a very good novel by Bruce Sterling "Heavy Weather". At the end someone is about to shoot someone else but before doing so he feels the need of a long justification in moral terms of why he will shoot. The other replies something like "if our roles were reversed, I would also shoot you, but WITHOUT THE FUCKING LECTURE". What happens of course is that the first guy is too distracted by trying to morally justify his actions and does not notice a role-reversing situation, and is killed at the end. So. There are no such things as *right* or *wrong* actions. There are, however, *smart* and *stupid* action. and I am conceding that in some circumstances fighting back is the only smart thing to do. But please let's fight back WITHOUT THE FUCKING LECTURE. Self defense is the obvious thing to do when one is attacked, there is no need to justify it with nebulous and unverifiable abstract concepts such as "objective morality". Also, it would be practically dangerous. If you work yourself into a blind belief that only your viewpoint is "objectively valid", you will lose the capacity of understanding the other's point of view, and this is a disadvantage iwhen it comes to negotiation. G. On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:02:41 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Giulio, you are suffering from a bit of "us or them" dualism that any > good post-modernist would dismiss out of hand. > > Post modernism is open mindedness so wide that its brains have fallen > out, such that post-modernists are being manipulated as sycophants for > the islamofascist agenda. Being scientifically objective is neither > islamofascist NOR post-modernist. Post modernism despises scientific > objectivity as a vestige of the northern european capitalist > phallocracy. Post modernism sees islamofascism as a 'counterbalance' to > scientific objectivity. > > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > > The "misogynistic warrior-cult" of islam is clearly the opposite of > > the "crippling relativism" that you dislike in modern western > > culture: > > they believe in their holy war against the west with a fervor > > untainted by doubt, complex ideas, and crippling relativism. > > So it seems to me that if you disapprove relativism in our culture, > > you should approve its absence in theirs. > > Or are just stating that we are good and they are bad without > > accepting the burden of proof? > > Or have I misunderstood something? > > G. > > > > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:23:48 -0600, Greg Burch > > wrote: > > the Enlightenment struggle is crippled by our very humanism that > > translates ! into a kind of civility that won't condemn Islam for the > > misogynistic warrior-cult that it is and has allowed much of our own > > cultural machinery to fall into the hands of crippling relativism. > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 07:47:02 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:47:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <470a3c520502020148508f52a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050202234720da0bee@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for expaining your position Greg, I tried to explain mine in the reply to Mike (same subject line). Please refer to that message for practical war-related considerations, here I will focus on the theoretical bit. I think your key message is in the statement "But just as the systematic doubt that is the crucial foundation of the scientific method doesn't bar one from finally reaching conclusions in science, so cultural skepticism need not reduce one to moral bankruptcy" I agree with this statement but with some imo very important caveats. Science is all about building models of reality sufficiently simple to be understandable and mathematically workable, yet sufficiently complex to permit taking all relevant factors into account. An engineer who uses Newtonian billiard ball physics to design a bridge of concrete is doing the right thing, but the same engineer knows that the same model of reality does not permit designing a new semiconductor device. He needs quantum physics to do that. As you well know quantum physics followed to its conclusions makes one question the very meaning of "reality" and "truth", but here the pragmatic engineer would say, I don't need to know what is true, I just need to know how to design a semiconductor device, and quantum physics permits doing that. While I don't fully agree with this position, it is accepted by most scientists and all engineers, and it means that science is not about truth, but about usefulness. Newtonian billiard ball physics is not "true" but it is "useful" in given circumstances and this is what is really important. So I don't feel the need to know what is "true" or "good", but only what is "useful" and "applicable". This is not moral bankrupcy as I will still make moral choices, not based on any "objective truth and morality" but on practical utility and relevance to my goals. I wanted to write more but have to go, look fwd to continue the discussion. G. On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:26:48 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Giu1i0Pri5c0 > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:48 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom > > > > > > The "misogynistic warrior-cult" of islam is clearly the opposite of > > the "crippling relativism" that you dislike in modern western culture: > > they believe in their holy war against the west with a fervor > > untainted by doubt, complex ideas, and crippling relativism. > > So it seems to me that if you disapprove relativism in our culture, > > you should approve its absence in theirs. > > Or are just stating that we are good and they are bad without > > accepting the burden of proof? > > Or have I misunderstood something? > > G. > > There does seem to be a misunderstanding. Doubt and skepticism are crucial elements of the modern Enlightenment world-view. And of course it is just the lack of this that marks the premodern mind-set as so perfectly exemplified in salafist Islam, as you rightly observe. However, it is the slide from skepticism to cultural relativism that marks the self-destructive "post-modern turn" as Best and Kellner so aptly called it in the title of their book on the subject. But just as the systematic doubt that is the crucial foundation of the scientific method doesn't bar one from finally reaching conclusions in science, so cultural skepticism need not -- as the most radical postmodernists who have seized power in academia and elsewhere in our cultural apparatus in the west conclude -- reduce one to moral bankruptcy. Bertrand Russell once described the result of the scientific method as "successive approximations of the truth." The same can be said of Enlightenment modern morality and cultural values. It is the post-modern rejection of the concept of moral truth that is, in my opinion the chief weapon in the salafist Muslim warrior's arsenal against the concept of progress. > > This has led to the nearly universal alliance between the left and Islamic radicals in the West. We have the absurd result of so-called 'progressives" being unwilling to lift a finger to oppose the most horrific oppression of women in the Muslim world when 70 years ago they lined up in droves to go to Spain to fight the fascists -- where is the 21st century equivalent of the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade" in which communists and socialists from the U.S. fought and died in Spain? where is the "Susan B. Anthony Brigade?" Now we are told "it's their culture -- if you condemn them you are being a cultural imperialist!" Long-time leftists like Christopher Hitchens who have pointed out this fundamental hypocrisy have been vilified and summarily excommunicated from the fold. To even pronounce his name in the midst of the Chomskyite faithful is to risk launching an avalanche of opprobrium. How often do we hear the left condemn what has happened to Salman Rushdie? Where is Hollywood when a fellow filmmaker like Theo van Gogh is murdered by a religious fanatic? The silence from the Western mainstream cultural left about these topics is deafening. If they hadn't been enfeebled by post-modernism, we'd see feminist commando groups parachuting into Iran, guerrilla filmmakers infiltrating Egypt, insurgent poets making hit-and-run attacks on madrassas in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. > > At the risk of constantly citing myself, I urge you to read the text of my talk at Extro 5 on this subject: > > http://www.gregburch.net/progress.html > > This talk was given just three months before 911. > > As to accepting "the burden of proof," I do. After 911, I realized that I had a huge gap in my knowledge of human culture and worked for two years to remedy it, reading literally tens of thousands of pages about Islamic history, theology and culture. I am more than willing to shoulder the burden of proof; I just ask that we be willing upon considering the evidence to actually make some judgments. > > GB From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 10:52:18 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:52:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] This life span debate is one for the ages Message-ID: <470a3c5205020302523e37771e@mail.gmail.com> It all started with Sherwin Nuland's engrossing-if-maybe-a-bit-over-the-top cover profile of Aubrey de Grey, a Cambridge University-based computer nerd and Snuffy Smith look-alike who claims to be an innovator in the field of biogerontology. If you search technologyreview.com, the TR website, you'll find quite a brouhaha concerning the de Grey profile. Nuland's article was evenhanded, but for some reason TR editor Jason Pontin wrote an editorial in the same issue, calling de Grey a ''troll," and worse: ''pathetically circumscribed... he dresses like a shabby graduate student and affects Rip Van Winkle's beard; he has no children... he drinks too much beer." De Grey's claque, many of whom subscribe to the tenets of ''transhumanism" (fire up the browser again: www.transhumanism.org), pounced on Pontin's remarks. Pontin lamely explained, ''When I called Mr. de Grey a 'troll' it was of course a literary device." Of course. Various crackpots have invaded the TR website; check out the ramblings of Reason -- his legal name -- who runs the website www.longevitymeme.com. Pontin is proud of the article, and he should be. It has been downloaded from the TR site almost 200,000 times, which approaches the magazine's total circulation of 315,000. ''I think we've shown how de Grey has become more of a movement than a man," Pontin says. ''And he has made himself the leader of this movement without ever performing a single experiment in a lab." http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2005/02/03/this_life_span_debate_is_one_for_the_ages/ My letter to the Boston Globe editor: Sir, referring to the article "This life span debate is one for the ages" by By Alex Beam, Globe Columnist, February 3, 2005: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2005/02/03/this_life_span_debate_is_one_for_the_ages/ The author refers to the debate on Technology Review, but forgets mentioning that the vast majority of readers, not all of them "transhumanists", express sympathy for Dr. de Grey and indignation for the unjustified ad-hominem personal attack of Mr. Pontin. I wish to invite all Globe readers to follow the debate, including the public apology issued by Mr. Pontin, at: http://techreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forumid=1002 http://techreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forumid=1001 From eugen at leitl.org Thu Feb 3 12:29:10 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:29:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 03:45:45PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > The level of discourse seemed to me much better than this silencing > remark. Let's go discussing daily politics, then. Did you know that Pope's Breathing Difficulties Made Worse by Parkinson's? That Abbas Says Palestinians Will Call Cease-Fire in Egypt Next Week? That Fed still has a ways to go before rates hit 'neutral' point? That Oil Falls to 3-Week Low After U.S. Gasoline Stockpiles Increase? All this very extropian, and apropos on a transhumanist mailing list. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Feb 3 14:42:44 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:42:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Update on a terrorist cult In-Reply-To: <4201273B.A1FE0B9D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050203094144.04209ec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> As a lot of you know, I am a refugee because of a certain cult in the US. Generally they manage to threaten editors enough to prevent stories about them from being published, major exceptions being Time's story "The cult of greed and power" back in 1991, and a few good series in newspapers, the most recent in California being Nanette Asimov's (niece of Isaac) story exposing Scientology/Narconon last year in the SF Chronicle. That got their bogus anti drug program tossed out the California schools. Another one hit this week in Buffalo NY. Mark Sommers, the reporter who did it, spent over a year working on the story. These URLs won't be up long. Enjoy! Keith Henson Day 1 http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056567.asp http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1055254.asp http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050130/1056545.asp Day 2 http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1060672.asp http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050131/1067682.asp Day 3 http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1064780.asp http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050201/1051251.asp Day 4 http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1064176.asp http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1008269.asp From neptune at superlink.net Thu Feb 3 14:54:50 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:54:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Supplements the EU Will Soon Ban Message-ID: <001a01c50a00$50fd9140$12893cd1@pavilion> http://www.lef.org/news/LefDailyNews.htm?NewsID=1732&Section=VITAMINS&source=DHB57&key=Body+ContinueReading From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Thu Feb 3 18:58:48 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:58:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE02910C7E@amazemail2.amazeent.com> As you wish. http://montages.blogspot.com/2005/02/us-encouraged-by-vietnam-vote.html You can buy the original article from http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/82602711.html?did=82602711&FMT=ABS&F MTS=AI&date=Sep+4%2C+1967&author=By+PETER+GROSE+Special+to+The+New+York+ Times&desc=U.S.+ENCOURAGED+BY+VIETNAM+VOTE which you'll note is the archival domain for the NYT at http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/nytarchive.html Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > >> Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >>> Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter >>> turnout of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the >>> typical turnout for US elections. In spite of 44 people being >>> killed in violence (including a child suffering from Downs syndrome >>> used as a suicide bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified >>> success, as international observers have all said. Turnout in the >>> shiite and kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it >>> appears the only people who were discouraged from voting by the >>> Sunni terrorists were the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, >>> batman. The mayor of Bagdad has stated that they are going to erect >>> a statue of Bush in the city center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope >>> his pose isn't the same as Saddams (assuming they use the same >>> pedestal). >>> >>> >>> >> http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/nytviet.htm >> >> U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: >> Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror >> by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967) > > Show an original image of the article on a NYT domain for that. I've > seen so much fraudulent peacenik bs lately. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 3 19:02:08 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:02:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] euronews, eurofacts References: <42013DEE.6000604@neopax.com> Message-ID: <000401c50a22$dc54adb0$38b41b97@administxl09yj> http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/press_communication/facts/index_en.htm From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 21:09:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:09:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? Message-ID: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering recently, given the still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody has started developing body-locker type pod villages for low level tech workers to reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to commute an hour each way in the morning).... what is the word on this? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 23:06:22 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:06:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] testing, testing... is the mail list home? In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050203230622.77032.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> any one, anyone? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 00:44:49 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed bill to ban cloning stirs debate about human life In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205020123004a9173dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050204004449.62823.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com> > Smith argued that "cloning is cloning is cloning" > and said that even > therapeutic cloning is immoral because "it reduces > nascent human life > to the status of a mere commodity, a natural > resource ripe for the > harvest." Well I hate to break it to Smith but human life has been commodofied for a long time. Apart from the buying and selling of slaves that only ended in the mainstream a little over 150 years ago, you now have a situation where people's time is commodified as labor. Time is the stuff that human life is composed of and by working 8 hrs a day, a person is essentially selling 1/3rd of his life to the highest bidder. So how much commodification of human life is too much? ===== The Avantguardian "The penis mightier than the sword." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Feb 4 03:20:24 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:20:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ References: <20050201044550.40767.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201c50a68$7dec93a0$1db71218@Nano> The Nanogirl News February 3, 2005 President's advisers to consider export controls on nanotech. A panel that advises President Bush on export issues will explore whether nanotechnology needs regulating. The committee, which will be assembled early this year, is expected to review other nations' nanotechnology capabilities, their competitiveness and nanotechnology's impact on national security. Lawyers who specialize in export law recommend nanotechnology companies follow developments to ensure they comply if regulations eventually are put in place. The scope could range from restrictions on international trade to rules on staffing foreign nationals. (Smalltimes 2/3/05) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8727 St. Louis, MO, January 17, 2005 - Elsevier, the world-leading scientific and medical publisher, announces plans to launch the world's first peer-reviewed journal devoted to nanomedicine - the emerging science of using molecular machines to treat human disease. Nanomedicine: Nanotechnology, Biology, and Medicine, the official publication of the American Academy of Nanomedicine, will be published quarterly, with the first issue to appear in March 2005. (Elsevier) http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/703416/description Friction at the nano-scale. Nanomachines will depend on our knowledge of friction, heat transfer and energy dissipation at the atomic level for their very survival. In the scramble to revolutionize the world with nanotechnology we must not ignore friction. Nano-scale devices based on moving molecular components have the potential to radically alter technologies such as energy storage, drug delivery, computing, communications and chemical manufacture. But getting these devices from the laboratory to the marketplace is far from guaranteed. (Physicsweb Feb. 05) http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/2/9 Nano's road to the future. 5-year-old National Nanotechnology Initiative keeps U.S. efforts on course...for now. In January 2000, much of the public got its first taste of nanotechnology from President Clinton...By internal and external accounts, the initiative has been successful, albeit a work in progress. It is at or ahead of some goals. For instance, recent lab advances suggest that the ability to not only detect but also treat certain types of cancer in their first year of occurrence is well before the original 20-year timeframe. Globally, the NNI has inspired or at least encouraged 40 similar programs. Most importantly, it has fostered true collaboration among the 22 participating government agencies, something historically turf-conscious career civil servants say is a major achievement. But challenges loom. Washington has entered a time of budgetary belt-tightening, just as the government's nano leaders say more money is needed to move basic research into application development. Experts say those efforts require a stronger link between government and industry,...(Smalltimes Jan. 05) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8710 More about the NNI at Smalltimes here: http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8711 Nanotechnology and the FDA. The US Food and Drug Administration regulates a wide range of products, including foods, cosmetics, drugs, devices, and veterinary products, some of which may utilize nanotechnology or contain nanomaterials. The FDA defines "nanotechnology" as research and technology or development of products regulated by FDA that involve all of the following... http://www.fda.gov/nanotechnology/ Scientists Find Evidence Of Electrical Charging Of Nanocatalysts. Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology and Technical University Munch have discovered evidence of a phenomenon that may lead to drastically lowering the cost of manufacturing of materials from plastics to fertilizers. Studying nano-sized clusters of gold on a magnesium oxide surface, scientists found direct evidence for electrical charging of a nano-sized catalyst. This is an important factor in increasing the rate of chemical reactions. The research will appear in the 21 January, 2005, issue of the journal Science, published by the AAAS, the science society, the world's largest general scientific organization. (Sciencedaily 2/2/05) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050123221728.htm Filling A Fullerene. Japanese group uses organic synthesis to make milligrams of H2-filled C60. Using organic synthesis as a scalpel and stitches, Japanese researchers have performed "molecular surgery" on a buckyball. A group at Kyoto University creates an opening in the molecule, inserts H2 into the cavity, and then, in just four steps, closes up the C60 framework to construct the endohedral fullerene H2 at C60 [Science, 307, 238 (2005)]. (C&E 1/17/05) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/83/i03/8303notw6.html "Lieber Appointed Coeditor Of Nano Letters," Chemical & Engineering News, 31 January 2005. (PDF) http://cmliris.harvard.edu/news/2005/HMag_JanFeb05_50-59.pdf Materials potpourri. Meeting spotlights latest advances in sensors, biomaterials, nanostructures, and art conservation. Although most Bostonians returning to work after the Thanksgiving holiday weren't aware of it, Boston Mayor Thomas M. Menino proclaimed Monday, Nov. 29, 2004--the first day of the Materials Research Society's annual fall meeting--to be the first-ever Materials Science Day in Boston. As Menino noted in a proclamation marking the occasion, MRS "has met in Boston every fall for 27 years and draws more than 5,000 international attendees and exhibitors." This year's MRS conferees braved the cold weather to absorb more than 2,500 talks and nearly 1,700 poster presentations. With five full days of symposia to occupy them, many attendees saw little need to desert the warmth of the Hynes Convention Center and its adjoining hotel and shopping mall complex, unless it was to attend the "Strange Matter" exhibit (C&EN, Jan. 12, 2004, page 40) held in conjunction with the meeting at the Boston Museum of Science. (C&E news 2/3/05) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/nanofocus/top/83/8301materials.html Carbon Nanotechnologies Inc. Announces Availability of Double-Wall Carbon Nanotubes. Carbon Nanotechnologies Inc. (CNI) announced today that it has expanded its pilot plant capability to provide double-wall carbon nanotubes to the market. Double-wall carbon nanotubes behave similarly to single-wall carbon nanotubes but have unique property characteristics for some applications. The technology to produce double-wall carbon nanotubes is part of the intellectual property developed by Dr. Richard Smalley and licensed exclusively to CNI by Rice University in 2001. "Even though single-wall carbon nanotubes have become somewhat of a gold standard product, the properties of double-wall carbon nanotubes can make them very interesting for certain applications," said Rick Smalley, chairman of CNI and University Professor at Rice University. (Business Wire 2/1/05) http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050201005081&newsLang=en Edventure Museum exhibit explores nano-technology. A new exhibit at Edventure Children's Museum is letting kids explore a world too small to see. "It's a Nano World" teaches kids about a nanometer, which is one billionth of a meter, smaller than one strand of hair. With the exhibit, children are able to measure themselves in nanometers, see things up close and personal, sort cells and play inside a drop of blood. (WIStv 2/1/05) http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2888593&nav=0RaPVs1t Paint Based on Quantum Dots has Potential to Assist Antiterrorism and Cancer Detection. Night vision technology could become extremely precise thanks to an inexpensive water-based material capable of boosting particles of light in the infrared spectrum, say University of Toronto researchers. The material has the potential to enhance infrared images tenfold by coating lenses with a film a 10th of a millimetre thick and powering the material with a laser. (Azonano 2/1/05) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=491 Nanotech takes aim at transistors. US scientists have made nano-scale devices they claim could one day replace current transistor technology. The tiny devices, "crossbar latches", are made up of a combination of crossed-over platinum wires with steric acid molecules set at their junctions. The Hewlett Packard researchers said they could potentially do a better job than present transistors, dramatically improving the performance of computers. The HP team reports its findings in the Journal of Applied Physics. (BBC 2/1/05) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4226305.stm Controlling guests in nanocapsules. "A detailed understanding of the interplay and relative orientations of the constituent guest molecules has, until now, been restricted to a few instances of limited complexity," note chemistry professor Jerry L. Atwood and coworkers at the University of Missouri, Columbia, in a recent paper [Angew. Chem. Int. Ed., 43,5263 (2004)]. The paper describes two important advances relating to nanocapsules with interior volumes in the 1,200?1,500-?3 range, according to Atwood. "First, we show that it is possible to order the guests on the interior of our large free-standing capsules," he says. "Second, and most remarkably, we show that these large capsules communicate with each other, at least in the solid state and probably in solution, by the formation of intercapsule hydrogen bonds. This communication in turn leads to a completely different ordering of the guests within the capsules." (C&Enews 2/3/05) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/nanofocus/top/83/8301capsules.html Test could detect Alzheimer's earlier. A highly sensitive new test could lead to a different way to diagnose people with Alzheimer's disease, possibly helping find the illness in its early stages when there might be time for treatment...Test measures proteins in spinal fluid Many companies have experimental therapies, he said, "But those therapeutics aren't very good if you can't definitively diagnose and follow a disease," explained Mirkin, a lead researcher - along with William L. Klein - on a team that developed the new test, which can detect small amounts of proteins in spinal fluid. The team's findings are reported in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. (MSNBC 2/1/05) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6890966 Nanotubes Crank Out Hydrogen. Pure hydrogen fuel is non-polluting. Current methods of extracting hydrogen, however, use energy derived from sources that pollute. Finding ways to use the sun's energy to split water to extract hydrogen would make for a truly clean energy source. Several research efforts are using materials engineered at the molecular scale to tap the sun as an energy source to extract hydrogen from water. Researchers from Pennsylvania State University have constructed a material made from titanium dioxide nanotubes that is 97 percent efficient at harvesting the ultraviolet portion of the sun's light and 6.8 percent efficient at extracting hydrogen from water. (Fuel Cell Today 1/27/05) http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal/NewsDisplayArticle/0,1602,5504,00.html Nanotechnology Detects Human DNA Mutations. Researchers at Nanosphere, Inc. have reported unprecedented benefits in the company's technology for the medical analysis of human DNA. Nanosphere's nanoparticle-based technology allows for rapid, highly-sensitive and specific Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) genotyping, which is the direct detection of a particular gene and the extent to which it is normal or mutated. (Azonano 1/26/05) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=481 NanoClarity, The New Nanotechnology E-Newsletter, Enrolls Over 1,000 Subscribers in 6 Months. Alan Shalleck, President of NanoClarity LLC of Jersey City, NJ, today announced the initial success of his new Newsletter and Commentary, NanoClarity, with the general and investing public, reaching a first milestone of over 1,000 subscribers. Distributed over the Internet at www.nanoclarity.com, NanoClarity clarifies, in understandable language, nanotechnology's current state, meaning and worth. Mr. Shalleck said, " I was so horrified by the "emperor's new clothes" dot.com bubble of the late 90s, that I committed my wisdom and acumen to protecting potential nanotech investors from similar pitfalls in the even bigger boom coming in nanotechnology. My commitment is NanoClarity." (eMediaWire 2/3/05) http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/2/emw204169.htm Anadis and Starpharma to Work Together on Respiratory Protection & Biodefense Applications. Anadis Ltd (ASX:ANX) and Starpharma Holdings Limited (ASX:SPL, USOTC:SPHRY) announced today that they have established a partnership to investigate applications of their combined technologies to respiratory protection and biodefense. This research involves the use of polyclonal antibodies, harvested from bovine colostrum and combined with Starpharma's nano-scale dendrimer molecules to provide immediate short term respiratory protection from airborne biological agents such as Anthrax and Plague. (PharmaLive 2/1/05) http://www.pharmalive.com/News/index.cfm?articleid=208834&categoryid=21 '04 Nano funding report: less money but record number of rounds. The amount of money invested by venture capitalists in U.S. companies commercializing nanotechnology fell a precipitous 35 percent last year. However, the number of companies receiving funding increased 32 percent, to the highest level Small Times has tracked in data going back to 1995. (Smalltimes 2/2/05) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8744 Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 06:14:25 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:14:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Using global warming to create conditions for life on Mars Message-ID: <470a3c5205020322142243ed71@mail.gmail.com> Injecting synthetic "super" greenhouse gases into the Martian atmosphere could raise the planet's temperature enough to melt its polar ice caps and create conditions suitable for sustaining biological life. In fact, a team of researchers suggests that introducing global warming on the Red Planet may be the best approach for warming the planet's frozen landscape and turning it into a habitable world in the future. Margarita Marinova, then at the NASA Ames Research Center, and colleagues propose that the same types of atmospheric interactions that have led to recent surface temperature warming trends on Earth could be harnessed on Mars to create another biologically hospitable environment in the solar system. In the February issue of Journal of Geophysical Research-Planets, published by the American Geophysical Union, the researchers report on the thermal energy absorption and the potential surface temperature effects from introducing man-made greenhouse gases strong enough to melt the carbon dioxide and ice on Mars. "Bringing life to Mars and studying its growth would contribute to our understanding of evolution, and the ability of life to adapt and proliferate on other worlds," Marinova said. "Since warming Mars effectively reverts it to its past, more habitable state, this would give any possibly dormant life on Mars the chance to be revived and develop further." http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/agu-ugw020305.php From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 4 07:13:38 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:13:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] stem cell money In-Reply-To: <00a601c50941$2a3e3010$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <200502040714.j147DrC25711@tick.javien.com> > Both my friend who is a quadriplegic and I are pretty > depressed about Bush winning again and what that means for stem > cell/biotech research. Well there is more than one way to look at that. Heres the bright side: W didnt actually outlaw stem cell research, he just greatly limited what the government would pay for, effectively nothing. That throws the funding for stem cell research to private industry, as well as the profit. We should not write off the power of the profit motive. In some ways, one might argue that private funding is exactly what stem cell research needs, because the potential payoff is *truly* staggering. The money that a company could make off of a successful stem cell therapy, especially the *first* company, with all the momentum of the expectations of the proletariat, ooohhh my, that sum makes one's butt hurt just to think of it. The government's goofy *motive* for withholding funding doesn't matter, only the outcome matters. We might win. {8-] spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Feb 5 05:06:38 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:06:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] U.S.A./China Life Expectancy Message-ID: <004301c50b40$792d1fa0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Apparently the life expectancy in China has reached (in 2004 C.E.) 79.87 years (and don't they smoke a lot in China, as well?).: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/04/content_414870.htm In the U.S. life expectancy (in 2000 C.E.) is listed as being 76.9 years: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/nvsr/51/51_03.htm Of course, GoogleGod is not all-knowing and omniscient (and not as academic or objective as EduGod, either). So is this true? Do people in China live longer than people in the U.S.A.? If anyone has some longevity statistics to throw into the fray here, please do. Olga From david at ideoware.com Sat Feb 5 07:07:04 2005 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 00:07:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <20050202213434.68085.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050202213434.68085.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42047098.7050804@ideoware.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Sprint's entire US backbone went down this morning. I too got messages >bounced...I also posted a notice about this to the bbs but it doesn't >seem to post postings to the list. > > The BBS will forward messages to the list only if the author is subscribed to the list (with the same email address). From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 08:06:04 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:06:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Berlusconi Forever - unexpected political ally Message-ID: <470a3c5205020500066980a3c8@mail.gmail.com> This interesting article on the leading Italian daily newspaper "Repubblica" hints at extropian influences on... Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi! http://www.repubblica.it/2005/a/sezioni/politica/dibacdldue/chioma/chioma.html See also http://www.estropico.com/index.htm for more commentaries in Italian. The tone of the article, mainly dedicated to Berlusconi's fight with hair loss, is ironic and definitely not pro-transhumanist, but as they say bad press is better than no press, and I am sure the article will bring visitors to the estropico site. Who knows, some visitors may actually read and consider the content. Translating some bits: We wonder if President Berlusconi, post-modern Faust, knows what is "extropy", a school of thought which places individual well-being above all types of transcendence, and studies the impact of technology on organic functions with the objective to extend life and even defy the inevitability of death. Many theoretical tenets of the extropian movement (see www.estropico.com) seem to inspire Berlusconi's values, beliefs, attitude and even language... Much more than hair transplants: by studying Methuselah-mouses and self-freezing frogs, this science-fiction community animated by Egyptian suggestions and technological dreams promotes hybernation, or cryonics if you like. From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 15:53:54 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:53:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Life Built to Order Message-ID: <470a3c5205020507531e6b06d9@mail.gmail.com> Los Alamos scientist Steen Rasmussen plans to one-up nature by cobbling together a brand-new creature that reproduces and evolves. Is he making a biotech marvel that will do our bidding, or a test-tube-size Frankenstein monster? Los Alamos, famed birthplace of the atomic bomb, has just awarded Rasmussen nearly $5 million to attempt an experiment as bold as the one that drew scientists to this pine-dotted New Mexico mesa back in the 1940s: He intends to create a brand-new life-form. The team's "protocell" will be thousands of times as small as a typical bacterium and far more primitive. But if all goes as planned, it will possess the defining characteristics of life: It will spawn offspring, generate its own energy, even evolve. Left unspoken was this: If Rasmussen, who first started contemplating protocells seven years ago, and his colleagues succeed, they will have crossed a threshold, bestowing on humankind powers that now belong exclusively to nature (or to God, depending on your beliefs). For most of his 49 years, the Danish-born theoretical physicist has been obsessed with understanding what makes life possible. In attempting to make his own version, he tossed aside biology textbooks and asked himself, What's the simplest living system I can imagine? The result is that his protocell looks like no life-form anyone has ever seen. "I'm sort of out in the extreme," he confesses. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/medicine/article/0,20967,1014147,00.html From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 5 19:41:22 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:41:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Book: THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050205122525.029af020@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Friends, Futurists and Colleagues - The book, THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA is in the works! Bill Joy's Wired article in 2000 was a salvo that ricocheted around the world, causing fear and angst among people about the future of technology. To add insult to injury, in 2004 Bill McKibben wrote Enough - Staying Human in an Engineered Age. But when Francis Fukuyama made the resounding statement that "transhumanism" is "the world's most dangerous idea," it was the last straw. Since then, Dr. Max More and Natasha Vita-More have been in the process of writing THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA as a reply to the salvos of Joy, Fukuyama and McKibben. Max More has written about the affects of technology on society, economics, politics and the environment, much of which is explicitly expressed in his declaration "Letter to Mother Nature." Vita-More designed the quintessential future body, "Primo Posthuman," which applies the key technologies Joy, Fukuyama and McKibben fear. Please contact us if you are interested in contributing to THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA. Best wishes, Extropy Institute ____________________] http://www.extropy.org info at extropy.org Extropy Institute ("ExI") is multidisciplinary research and educational non-profit 501(c)3 organization. Associate membership dues are tax-exempt. ExI has grown from a ground breaking futurist organization to a worldwide incubator for solutions. Having spent the last 15 years building the grid for transhumanity, ExI is now moving forward in designing tools for resolving technological and cultural issues by designing thinking systems and solutions for the future. Extropy Institute is a networking organization which advocates the Proactionary Principle in addressing social issues. Extropy Institute does not support any one political agenda. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 21:22:12 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:22:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050205212212.61632.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I just received 2 messages at 4:21 EST, Feb 05. --- Greg Burch wrote: > I tried to post this morning -- are we back up? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Eugen > Leitl > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:23 PM > > To: dirk at neopax.com; ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 08:54:06PM +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > Seems a load of my posts bounced this morning, but a test reply > > has just > > > got through. > > > What's going on? > > > What is the censorship policy (and I don't mean the FAQ)? > > > > Speaking of which, Verizon has been blocking mail from Europe. > > I'm not sure what will happen with this message; probably it will > come > > through, given that the ExI mail server isn't over here. > > > > If anyone from Verizon is reading this, please send me an ACK. > > > > -- > > Eugen* Leitl leitl > > ______________________________________________________________ > > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Feb 5 21:51:15 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:51:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so what happened with the list? Message-ID: We're back but it would be god to know what happened. -samantha From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 00:15:21 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:15:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [wta-talk] A second book project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5366105b05020516157ca9e0a4@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:52:43 -0500, Hughes, James J. wrote: > This hi-larious use of a saccharine children's book: > > http://www.bitfurnace.com/TheCuddlyMenace/ > Dammit! I just now independently found this link. Folks, this is absolutely not to be missed. It reminds me of some the satire from Orion's Arm. I have seen nothing better than this since Stross blogged about an image of Cthulhu-Na-Gig. No link for that; it much too dangerous. It left me temporarily blind). -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 00:15:21 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:15:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [wta-talk] A second book project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5366105b05020516157ca9e0a4@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:52:43 -0500, Hughes, James J. wrote: > This hi-larious use of a saccharine children's book: > > http://www.bitfurnace.com/TheCuddlyMenace/ > Dammit! I just now independently found this link. Folks, this is absolutely not to be missed. It reminds me of some the satire from Orion's Arm. I have seen nothing better than this since Stross blogged about an image of Cthulhu-Na-Gig. No link for that; it much too dangerous. It left me temporarily blind). -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 00:28:10 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:28:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <42014DF6.5060309@neopax.com> Message-ID: <200502060028.j160SaC12547@tick.javien.com> It must be back up now? spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dirk Bruere > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:03 PM > To: Mike Lorrey; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? > > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Sprint's entire US backbone went down this morning... > > > > > > > That's a relief!... From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 00:50:46 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Collapse (Jared Diamond) In-Reply-To: <420182AA.6070106@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050206005046.75241.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote:> > I really did not like the way he lumped Thor Heyerdahl and Von > Daniken, but this is probably > because Aku Aku was my favorite book when I was twelve years old. > The reason the comparison is valid is that, despite Heyerdahl's natural experiments in oceanic navigation with primitive vessels actually reaching their destinations (not entirely primitive, BTW, he tended to rely overmuch on modern rope and other fastener technology) the clear fact is that you wouldn't be able to turn a profit trading between continents if you had to build a new boat for every trip. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 6 01:53:18 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:53:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520502020148508f52a0@mail.gmail.com> <20050202160242.24413.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2005, at 11:17 PM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Not being a good post-modernist doesn't bother me, I am not too > interested in being a faithful orthodox member of one or another -ism. > I try developing my own worldview, and if it fits well a -ism good, > otherwise too bad but I don't really care so much. > Of course I don't refuse to acknowledge the fact that our world is a > "us or them" world. It is a unfortunate fact but it remains a fact. I am not sure of this "fact" nor of its implied centrality nor of its effective immutability. please say more. > I > would like to see myself as part of a big human family, but I know > that if I were to go to Iraq they would probably see me as one of > "them" and behead me. So I have no practical choice but seeing me as > one of "us". You have the choice of working to end the manifold causes of particular virulence toward us on the part of some iraqis. They certainly are not acting from only or even primarily religious motives. We have earned some bad blood. That tends to be the case when you invade and occupy someone's country. > And I never questioned that if one is attacked the > smartest thing he can do is fighting back. But... > There is a very good novel by Bruce Sterling "Heavy Weather". At the > end someone is about to shoot someone else but before doing so he > feels the need of a long justification in moral terms of why he will > shoot. The other replies something like "if our roles were reversed, I > would also shoot you, but WITHOUT THE FUCKING LECTURE". What happens > of course is that the first guy is too distracted by trying to morally > justify his actions and does not notice a role-reversing situation, > and is killed at the end. > So. There are no such things as *right* or *wrong* actions. Bull. Invading a country for bogus reasons is wrong. Many things "they" are doing are also wrong. > There are, > however, *smart* and *stupid* action. and I am conceding that in some > circumstances fighting back is the only smart thing to do. But please > let's fight back WITHOUT THE FUCKING LECTURE. Self defense is the > obvious thing to do when one is attacked, there is no need to justify > it with nebulous and unverifiable abstract concepts such as "objective > morality". We invade a country and then justify continuing occupation and violence as simple self defense? > Also, it would be practically dangerous. If you work > yourself into a blind belief that only your viewpoint is "objectively > valid", you will lose the capacity of understanding the other's point > of view, and this is a disadvantage iwhen it comes to negotiation. I don't see you exercising a lot of understanding of the point of view of the "other" above. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 6 02:01:35 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:01:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1b56f520a4e9221b6934a4ea5806f7d3@mac.com> On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:29 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 03:45:45PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> The level of discourse seemed to me much better than this silencing >> remark. > Precisely why are you being rather uncharacteristically and seemingly childishly snide? In my opinion whether we see the world as so polarized that we largely subvert extropian goals is one of the most important things we could talk about here. - samantha > Let's go discussing daily politics, then. Did you know that Pope's > Breathing > Difficulties Made Worse by Parkinson's? That Abbas Says Palestinians > Will > Call Cease-Fire in Egypt Next Week? That Fed still has a ways to go > before > rates hit 'neutral' point? That Oil Falls to 3-Week Low After U.S. > Gasoline > Stockpiles Increase? > > All this very extropian, and apropos on a transhumanist mailing list. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From neptune at superlink.net Sun Feb 6 03:11:57 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:11:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] testing, testing... is the mail list home? References: <20050203230622.77032.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007a01c50bf9$9ea36dc0$db893cd1@pavilion> I am always here. From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] testing, testing... is the mail list home? > any one, anyone? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 03:15:22 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:15:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] testing, testing... is the mail list home? In-Reply-To: <20050203230622.77032.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> <20050203230622.77032.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5366105b05020519156cc2c8af@mail.gmail.com> Oh thank god! The internet's been flakey since that weird flash knocked out the power. I still can't get anything on my phone or my radio. Just joking, ML. On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:06:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > any one, anyone? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Feb 6 03:54:30 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:54:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Business of Nanotech Message-ID: <001701c50bff$9023f9d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> This feature article just came out in Business Week magazine. "There's still plenty of hype, but nanotechnology is finally moving from the lab to the marketplace. Get ready for cars, chips, and golf balls made with new materials engineered down to the level of individual atoms" : http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_07/b3920001_mz001.htm Olga From neptune at superlink.net Sun Feb 6 04:06:31 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:06:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed bill to ban cloning stirs debate abouthuman life References: <20050204004449.62823.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001301c50c01$3e522a80$52893cd1@pavilion> On Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:44 PM The Avantguardian avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com wrote: >> Smith argued that "cloning is cloning >> is cloning" and said that even >> therapeutic cloning is immoral >> because "it reduces nascent human >> life to the status of a mere commodity, >> a natural resource ripe for the harvest." > > Well I hate to break it to Smith but > human life has been commodofied for a > long time. Apart from the buying and > selling of slaves that only ended in the > mainstream a little over 150 years ago, > you now have a situation where people's > time is commodified as labor. Time is > the stuff that human life is composed of > and by working 8 hrs a day, a person is > essentially selling 1/3rd of his life to the > highest bidder. Minor quibble: that's only if someone works 8 hours from cradle to grave. Given that most people will only work for a part of their adult life -- say, from age 18 until 65 or something like that and maybe only 40 hours per week not figuring in other time off -- it's a lot less than a third of their lives. (Actually, figuring working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with two weeks vacation... That amounts to 2000 hours per year -- about 23% of a year. If a person lives to be 75, but only works between 18 and 65, then she or he will have sold about 14% -- roughly one seventh -- of her or his life.) Also, another minor quibble: not everyone sells that time to the highest bidder.:) A lot of people just seem to fall into jobs. If more people would consider taking the best job -- or, at least, trying to choose the best from a range of jobs -- I think the world economy would be much more efficient. But I think many settle for less -- for whatever reason: tradition, force of habit, fear, ignorance, social pressure. > So how much > commodification of human life is too much? Apparently wherever the given person -- Smith, etc. -- arbitrarily draws the line. Later! Dan See "Anarchism, Minarchism, and Freedom" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Anarchism.html See "Objectivism, Anarchism, and Atlas Shrugged" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/RSVP1993.html See "Family, Social Order, and Government" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/FamilySOG.html From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 05:07:04 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:07:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] YADF--Yet Another Del.icio.us Feed--for >H Blogs Message-ID: <5366105b05020521076e703391@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 05 February 2005 Hello all: A RSS feed for all del.icio.us bookmarks tagged with both "transhumanist" and "blog" exists. Get it here: http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/blog+transhumanism This includes blogs from Burchismo and SadoMikeyism to Early Days of a Better Nation and IEET. It even includes my own, so I had best add some >H content to it. -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 6 05:37:50 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:37:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502060538.j165buC10987@tick.javien.com> > Mike Lorrey > Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering recently, given the > still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody has started > developing body-locker type pod villages for low level tech workers to > reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to commute an hour each > way in the morning).... what is the word on this? We have had these around here for at least 40 years Mike. They call them cars. {8^D If one knows where to look one can find plenty of people living in their rides. We had a guy at the rocket ranch doing that for a while, and at least one contractor who lived in a small motorhome on campus for over a year. Those people who hold the "homeless" signs are not actually claiming to be carless. A lot of the apartments that get four figure rents around here are not far from the body locker pod villages. spike From matus at matus1976.com Sun Feb 6 05:47:35 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 00:47:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE02910C7E@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <000001c50c0f$5cb49b30$6401a8c0@hplaptop> > >> http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/nytviet.htm > >> > >> U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: > >> Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror > >> by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967) > > To cite the fact that South Vietnam had an incredible election, and the fact that it is a hell hole today, completely ignores the reasons WHY it is that way today. It ignores the Soviet Union's backing of the North Vietnamese communists, a well armed but minority group who sought to force the entire population to live under their brutal system. It ignores the fact that the South Vietnamese fended off the invasions of the Soviet North for a full two years before finally being overrun, with NO help from the United States. It ignores the fact that the US Democratically led congressional abandonment of Indochina handed over the entire region, and its 120 million occupants, to Soviet communism, and millions were killed as a result. That liberals cite this as a reason to not be excited about the results of the election in Iraq is disgusting, since it is their actions that let Vietnam become the absolute hell hole it is today. Michael From matus at matus1976.com Sun Feb 6 05:57:27 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 00:57:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205020223176782d9cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c50c10$bffa2920$6401a8c0@hplaptop> > So. There are no such things as *right* or *wrong* actions. There are, > however, *smart* and *stupid* action. and I am conceding that in some > circumstances fighting back is the only smart thing to do. But please > let's fight back WITHOUT THE FUCKING LECTURE. Self defense is the > obvious thing to do when one is attacked, there is no need to justify > it with nebulous and unverifiable abstract concepts such as "objective > morality". How exactly are 'right' and 'wrong' really that much different than 'smart' and 'stupid' If you concede that fighting back is the 'only thing to do' are you not acknowledging that it is also right? Self defense is not obvious to everyone as justifiable and self defense can mean many different things. For instance, does one have to wait until a gun has been fired directly at them to act in self defense? Or is it enough for someone to be acting maliciously toward you while also waiving the gun around a firing. What if someone were shooting everyone in a line, one person at a time, and you were last in that line. Can you act in 'self defense' then? He has not harmed you, he has not pointed a gun in your direction, he has not acted in a malicious or belligerent manner toward you. > Also, it would be practically dangerous. If you work yourself into a blind > belief that only your viewpoint is "objectively valid" Is the only manner in which one can believe he is right be based on 'blind belief' (read: faith) Faith is belief without evidence, or belief AS evidence. Can I have evidence that suggests my morality is *right*? If I cant, if no one can ever know such things, what guides your actions? Surely you must suspect, at least, that your actions are right, in someway, somehow. Yet our descriptions of reality get ever more accurate. > As you well > know quantum physics followed to its conclusions makes one question > the very meaning of "reality" and "truth", Not at all true, there are no aspects of Quantum Mechanics that directly imply, as a simplest explanation to observed phenomena, that reality is to be questioned and that the universe is a figment of our imagination. This is all hogwash, arbitrary interpretations that happen to fit current experimental evidence and presented as conceivable by the very scientists who have built their careers on parsimony, occam's razor, and hume's maxim, all of which they wantonly disregard when making such absurd comments about quantum mechanics. > but here the pragmatic > engineer would say, I don't need to know what is true, I just need to > know how to design a semiconductor device, and quantum physics permits > doing that. The practical engineer says it works because it is true. The pragmatic engineer says it is true because it works. The former is capable of forming higher abstractions and recognizing larger patterns that hint toward a fundamental understanding of reality, of objective reality, and can create and anticipate new things based on that. The latter never conceives of the idea that the formulas he uses to build a bridge work because they are right, and thus never connects them to other areas and hinders his own intellectual progress in the universe. The practical engineers formulas work specifically because they are right! Michael From Walter_Chen at compal.com Sun Feb 6 10:50:08 2005 From: Walter_Chen at compal.com (Walter_Chen at compal.com) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:50:08 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] U.S.A./China Life Expectancy Message-ID: <483D64E30D008A4E930645FE7B92CEA44D5004@tpeexg01.compal.com> > From: Olga Bourlin > Apparently the life expectancy in China has reached (in 2004 C.E.) 79.87 > years (and don't they smoke a lot in China, as well?) This is for Beijing residents only. > In the U.S. life expectancy (in 2000 C.E.) is listed as being 76.9 years: This is for all US people. Lots of difference. ================================================================================================================================================================ This message may contain information which is private, privileged or confidential of Compal Electronics, Inc. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender and destroy/delete the message. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information, by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. ================================================================================================================================================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Feb 6 12:51:25 2005 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:51:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] U.S.A./China Life Expectancy In-Reply-To: <004301c50b40$792d1fa0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <004301c50b40$792d1fa0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: 79.87 years seems too much. The CIA world factbook 2004 says 71.96 years for China. Other figures: (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity ) Japan: 80.9 years Australia: 80 years Hong Kong: 79.8 years Italy: 79.25 years France: 79.05 years UK: 77.99 years Germany: 77.78 years USA: 77.4 years (data from CIA World Factbook 2002) Alfio On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: >Apparently the life expectancy in China has reached (in 2004 C.E.) 79.87 >years (and don't they smoke a lot in China, as well?).: >http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/04/content_414870.htm > >In the U.S. life expectancy (in 2000 C.E.) is listed as being 76.9 years: >http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/nvsr/51/51_03.htm > >Of course, GoogleGod is not all-knowing and omniscient (and not as academic >or objective as EduGod, either). > >So is this true? Do people in China live longer than people in the U.S.A.? >If anyone has some longevity statistics to throw into the fray here, please >do. > >Olga > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 15:06:36 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 07:06:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Glitch or censorship? In-Reply-To: <42047098.7050804@ideoware.com> Message-ID: <20050206150637.44310.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- David McFadzean wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Sprint's entire US backbone went down this morning. I too got > messages > >bounced...I also posted a notice about this to the bbs but it > doesn't > >seem to post postings to the list. > > > > > The BBS will forward messages to the list only if the author is > subscribed to the list (with the same email address). Yeah, so? I've been receiving email at this address for quite a few years now from this list. Are you trying to tell me that someone went and did a mass unsubscribe of others? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 15:11:25 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:11:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [futuretag] Book: THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050205134459.029ab830@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050205134459.029ab830@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205020607112817a359@mail.gmail.com> The title is great, and I hope the book will also be great. May I recommend writing it for a wide audience: this should not be another prayer book for the converted, but something that every person in the street who never heard of transhumanism before can pick up at the kiosk, read on the train and think why not, these are good ideas. G. On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:45:57 -0600, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Friends, Futurists and Colleagues - > > The book, THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA is in the works! > > Bill Joy's Wired article in 2000 was a salvo that ricocheted around the > world, causing fear and angst among people about the future of technology. > To add insult to injury, in 2004 Bill McKibben wrote Enough - Staying Human > in an Engineered Age. But when Francis Fukuyama made the resounding > statement that "transhumanism" is "the world's most dangerous idea," it was > the last straw. > > Since then, Dr. Max More and Natasha Vita-More have been in the process of > writing THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA as a reply to the salvos of Joy, > Fukuyama and McKibben. > > Max More has written about the affects of technology on society, economics, > politics and the environment, much of which is explicitly expressed in his > declaration "Letter to Mother Nature." Vita-More designed the > quintessential future body, "Primo Posthuman," which applies the key > technologies Joy, Fukuyama and McKibben fear. > > Please contact us if you are interested in contributing to THE WORLD'S MOST > DANGEROUS IDEA. > > Best wishes, > > Extropy Institute From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 16:11:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] U.S.A./China Life Expectancy In-Reply-To: <004301c50b40$792d1fa0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050206161145.46515.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > So is this true? Do people in China live longer than people in the > U.S.A.? > If anyone has some longevity statistics to throw into the fray here, > please do. I supppose they don't count political dissidents, organ farm 'livestock', and Tibetans. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From david at ideoware.com Sun Feb 6 18:08:54 2005 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:08:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] so what happened with the list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42065D36.4050602@ideoware.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > We're back but it would be god to know what happened. The mailman list server process crashed. Unfortunately there are no clues in the logs. From test at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu Sun Feb 6 19:02:39 2005 From: test at demedici.ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:02:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Telegraph story that unemployed German women must work in brothels? Message-ID: There's a story at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml that unemployed German women must take jobs in brothels or lose their benefits. Is this an urban myth, or is it for real? Can anyone in Germany or Europe verify it? This is only slightly related to Extropy, but this list has international membership and often discusses politics. Thanks, Bill From dirk at neopax.com Sun Feb 6 15:38:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:38:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <420639D8.3030302@neopax.com> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 03:45:45PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > >>The level of discourse seemed to me much better than this silencing >>remark. >> >> > >Let's go discussing daily politics, then. Did you know that Pope's Breathing >Difficulties Made Worse by Parkinson's? That Abbas Says Palestinians Will >Call Cease-Fire in Egypt Next Week? That Fed still has a ways to go before >rates hit 'neutral' point? That Oil Falls to 3-Week Low After U.S. Gasoline >Stockpiles Increase? > >All this very extropian, and apropos on a transhumanist mailing list. > > Let's not forget the British news headline delivered weekly for the past 30+yrs: "Northern Ireland Peace Process in Trouble" Feel free to substitute, Palestinian/Israel etc -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Feb 6 20:11:35 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:11:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (IUFO) The Next Digital Divide How biopolitics could reshape our understanding of left and right Message-ID: <420679F7.8EDA4E64@mindspring.com> ?By Alyssa Ford, Utne.com January 2005 Issue Didn't think it was possible for the left to be anymore splintered? Welcome to the world of biopolitics, a fledgling political movement that promises to make mortal enemies out of one-time allies -- such as back-to-nature environmentalists and technophile lefties -- and close friends of traditional foes, such as anti-GMO activists and evangelicals. Biopolitics, a term coined by Trinity College professor James Hughes, places pro-technology transhumanists on one pole and people who are suspicious of technology on the other. According to Hughes < http://www.changesurfer.com/Acad/DemocraticTranshumanism.htm >, transhumanists are members of "an emergent philosophical movement which says that humans can and should become more than human through technological enhancements." The term transhuman is shorthand for transitional human -- people who are in the process of becoming "posthuman" or "cyborgs." It may sound like a movement founded by people who argue over Star Trek minutia on the Internet, but transhumanists are far more complex and organized than one might imagine. They got their start in the early 1980s as a small band of libertarian technophiles who advocated for any advancement that could extend human life indefinitely or eliminate disease and disability. Their members were some of the first to sign up to be cryogenically frozen, for example. As biotech and bioethics issues such as cloning and stem cell research gained importance on the international agenda, the transhumanist philosophy grew in popularity and became more diverse. For instance, several neo-nazi groups who saw technological advancement as the way to achieve eugenics embraced the transhumanist label. Transhumanism pierced the popular culture when the Coalition of Artists and Life Forms (CALF) formed in the 1990s. This small band of artists and writers has a shared excitement for technology and a distrust of the corporations that mishandle it. In 1997, a group of American and European leftist-transhumanists (including Dr. Hughes) formed the World Transhumanist Association < http://transhumanism.org/index.php/th/ > to advocate for technology not only as a means to improve the human race and increase longevity, but as a tool for social justice. Unlike their libertarian forebearers, these "democratic transhumanists" advocate for moderate safeguards on new technology, such as drug trials. In an exhaustive article about various factions under the transhuman label < http://www.changesurfer.com/Acad/TranshumPolitics.htm >, Hughes identifies 11 subgroups, including "disability transhumanists" who argue for their right to technology and "gay transhumanists" who want children conceived outside of the opposite-sex paradigm (i.e., cloning). More- < http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specials_2005-01/articles/11539-1.html > This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Feb 6 20:53:45 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:53:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (IUFO) government employees are more equal than you Message-ID: <420683D9.79F6A9A1@mindspring.com> Social Security Spooks by Walter E. Williams Walter E. Williams is chairman of the Economics Department at George Mason University and a Cato Institute adjunct scholar. Liberal Democrats in Congress and Bill Clinton love to attack Republican proposals for Social Security reform. In their quest for votes, they stoke the fears of older Americans by telling them that Republicans want to destroy Social Security by allowing Americans choices in providing for retirement. Most Democrats and some Republicans rank Social Security with God, motherhood and apple pie. Few people know that about 5 million Americans employed by state and municipal governments do not pay into Social Security. Under the provisions of the 1935 Social Security Act, state and municipal governments could opt out. This Social Security loophole was closed in 1983; however, Congress permitted those 5 million employees, as well as about 100,000 clergy, to remain exempt from paying into Social Security. Part of President Clinton's plan to "save" Social Security, and championed by Sen. John Breaux, Louisiana Democrat, is to force previously exempted employees into Social Security. If 5 million more workers are forced into the system, it would bring in an estimated $11 billion over five years. Instead of Social Security collapsing in 2030, it would collapse in 2032 and there'd be 5 million more Social Security obligations. Mr. Clinton and Mr. Breaux's proposal is standard for any Ponzi scheme - to keep the scheme going, you have to round up more participants. Last April, 12 senators, including five Democrats - Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, both of California; Christopher Dodd of Connecticut; Richard Durbin of Illinois; and Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts - descended on the White House to demand President Clinton not support forcing 5 million of their constituents into Social Security. They warned of the adverse impact on employees in terms of lower rates of return and lost flexibility. J.T. Young, chief economist for the U.S. Senate Republican Policy Committee, points out a real-life example of the inferiority of Social Security compared to municipal pensions. San Diego city employees are required to put at least 3 percent of their salary into a pension plan (and may contribute up to 7 percent). Say a worker with a constant salary of $32,000 puts a minimum of 3 percent of his salary into a defined-contribution plan that goes into a mutual fund paying an annual rate of 7 percent. Upon retirement, that worker will have $293,385 in constant dollars. Such a return is far superior to Social Security's zero to 2.5 percent rate of return. If currently exempt workers are forced into Social Security, they'd also lose the flexibility of their municipal pension plans. Municipal pension plans typically award partial benefits for partial disability. Social Security provides benefits only when the individual becomes totally unemployable. People in high-pressure jobs like police and firefighting sometime require early retirement. Under Social Security, retirement benefits are not available until age 62. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why municipal employees don't want to be in Social Security. But what are we to make of Democrats who criticize Republicans for proposals that would begin the process of allowing American workers to find a deal better than Social Security while at the same time fighting to keep their 5 million constituents from being dragged into the Social Security rat hole? At best, they're a little more than forked-tongue scoundrels. When politicians boast to you about the wonders of Social Security, you should ask them: "If Social Security is so wonderful, how come people have to be pulled kicking and screaming into it? If it's so wonderful how come you're petitioning Clinton to spare your municipal employee constituents from being pulled into it?" I bet they will fork you gibberish for answers. This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From aperick at centurytel.net Mon Feb 7 01:41:29 2005 From: aperick at centurytel.net (Rick) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:41:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200502061235.j16CZVC30019@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Who among you would trade a guaranteed forty more years of natural human decline and natural death (certain) for a guarantee of just twenty more years of transhuman existence? The latter scenario would end just as the former, with an absolute and of all that was you. You are being forced to pick one of the two. Your transhuman makeover would start now and end twenty years from now. No slower/faster than normal paced perceptions nor multiple instantiations would be allowed and you will not be allowed to bestow any sorts of great gifts (nor wreak any sorts of havoc) to humanity in part or in whole. Other that that, you could be whatever you can imagine for the twenty years, providing that the jenie of this thought experiment can employ the physical laws of his universe to make it so. You are not allowed any further information in making this decision, you will have to guess as to what limits the jenie may find in this universe. You can however be assured that all the mainstream dreams of today's transhumanists regarding the prospects of nanotech and uploading can all be fully realized, along with more than ninety percent of what ever else most of you can imagine. I *have* been mainly angered over the prospect of my own demise, but lately have been looking favorably on the twenty years. I think that for me this may mean that I hate certain aspects of being a natural human even more than I am concerned with my continuing to exist. I fear my own thoughts. I fear that I am unable to see the struggle (a sort of war really) that is biology as a thing worthy of preservation. It has become increasingly difficult to be green. Humor survives, but it isn't pretty. Which is it for you, avoiding death? Or, transcending the issues and limits of a naturally evolved lifestyle? Resist the urge to not face the question and claim they are equal, you must pick one. (I: 45 years done, expecting up to around fifty more, such as they may be) From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Feb 7 03:52:17 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:52:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Telegraph story that unemployed German women must work in brothels? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050206225039.0339dcc0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:02 PM 06/02/05 -0600, you wrote: >There's a story at: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml > >that unemployed German women must take jobs in brothels >or lose their benefits. Is this an urban myth, or is it >for real? Looks like myth. http://www.sadlyno.com/ http://xrlq.com/archives/2005/01/31/2134/unemployed-german-prostitutes/ Keith From reason at longevitymeme.org Mon Feb 7 04:11:52 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:11:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Rick > > Who among you would trade a guaranteed forty more years of natural human > decline and natural death (certain) for a guarantee of just twenty more > years of transhuman existence? The latter scenario would end just as the > former, with an absolute and of all that was you. You are being forced to > pick one of the two. Option C: revolt against the oppressor. We are already being asked to choose between 10 years of one thing or 5 years of another. I'm not accepting that, so why accept this sort of thing? Boxes are for breaking out of - that is the essence of transhumanism. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Feb 7 04:42:48 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:42:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: is america fascist yet? Message-ID: <4206F1C8.1BC20C3D@mindspring.com> > >> http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/nytviet.htm > >> > >> U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: > >> Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror > >> by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967) > > To cite the fact that South Vietnam had an incredible election, and the fact that it is a hell hole today, completely ignores the reasons WHY it is that way today. It ignores the Soviet Union's backing of the North Vietnamese communists, a well armed but minority group who sought to force the entire population to live under their brutal system. It ignores the fact that the South Vietnamese fended off the invasions of the Soviet North for a full two years before finally being overrun, with NO help from the United States. It ignores the fact that the US Democratically led congressional abandonment of Indochina handed over the entire region, and its 120 million occupants, to Soviet communism, and millions were killed as a result. That liberals cite this as a reason to not be excited about the results of the election in Iraq is disgusting, since it is their actions that let Vietnam become the absolute hell hole it is today. Michael Your comments ignore two indisputable facts: First, the Viet Cong/Viet Minh were a large popular resistance faction that was in action a long time before the CHINESE (not the Soviets as you claim) began to support them. They effectively kicked the French out on their own using the weapons that had been provided them to fight the Japanese. Second, the "democracy" the US gave the Viet Namese consisted of, in order: Bao Dai, Diem, and Thieu. How, one might ask, could any of these yardbirds win an honest election? The answer is that they could not. In 1978, declassified documents revealed that the CIA had made sure that only US State Department approved candidates appeared on the ballots and that subterfuge funded by the CIA had actually prevented reunification elections from taking place (since they knew that the Communists would win in a fair election); the subterfuge was to be planned and executed in such a manner as to make the failure of the reunification elections appear to be the fault of the Communists. Finally, we should note that the chaotic exit from Viet Nam occurred on the watch of that radical left-wing liberal, Richard Milhouse (I am not a crook) Nixon. Remember, the guy with the "enemies list," COINTELPRO, and "Law and Odor" Attorney General John Mitchell? Whose VEEP was the idiot felon Spiro Agnew? Whose night-night partner was the paranoid transvestite J. Edgar Hoover? Remember that guy? If Nixon was a liberal, you, sir, are a genius. Ed Tyer -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Feb 7 04:52:59 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:52:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program Message-ID: <4206F42B.E0003F81@mindspring.com> < http://www.alternet.org/story/21181/ > Since the election, many activists have lapsed into depression, believing they are powerless to stop the wholesale destruction of the American dream. Stuck in an abusive relationship with the administration? If so, a 12-step program could be the answer. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sabine at posthuman.com Mon Feb 7 04:54:43 2005 From: sabine at posthuman.com (Sabine Atkins) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:54:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Telegraph story that unemployed German women must work in brothels? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4206F493.1090907@posthuman.com> Hi, I'm shortly switching my lurk mode off, because I researched this story and it's just another media-frenzy thing. http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp Best, Sabine PS. Thanks to Keith Henson, who provided two other urls about this urban myth. Bill Hibbard wrote: > There's a story at: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml > > that unemployed German women must take jobs in brothels > or lose their benefits. Is this an urban myth, or is it > for real? Can anyone in Germany or Europe verify it? > > This is only slightly related to Extropy, but this list > has international membership and often discusses politics. > > Thanks, > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 7 05:52:03 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:52:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <001801c5051a$3332e830$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050206214640.0292dd98@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I get so irritated with this stuff. The world is full of problems, people die, etc, etc. I have very limited means to work with. Using my time or resources to help with these problems is supremely ineffective. I don't recall which form of invalid argument the following represents, but I do reserve and act on my right to just say NO. >Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head. A pacifist, >who would stand by as his own spouse and children were raped and >murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's own life is more >important, then blame the rest of society for not properly bribing the >criminals to stay away from them. Mike Lorry ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 7 05:53:43 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:53:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050127234509.02862ed0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050206215314.02907b40@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> or acceptance of a wider definition thereof. At 07:47 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: >However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't >posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? > > >Hara Ra wrote: > >But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of > >humanity, not a rejection of the body..... ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 7 06:07:40 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:07:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <5366105b050130104168b50f8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5366105b050130104168b50f8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050206220626.028f0998@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Keith's paper will be in Analog Science Fiction, hard to find at mag stands, almost never at libraries. I suggest you just have him send it to you. Good paper, I've read it. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Mon Feb 7 08:53:08 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:53:08 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> References: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Message-ID: <200502070653.08897.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> I wouldn't. First, because I'm too young, and for me, amount is still more important than quality. Second, because I'm luckily one of the happiest person I have know of, and surely, the happiest I know personaly. The great nihislitic point here is that I do not think that almos anithing is worse than shortening my life. I would trade 40 years as a paraplegic for 20 years of a normal human life, but only because I would be aware of everithing I cannot do. This is not the case if I choose to be human instead of posthuman. My happiness stands, mainly, in my rewarding search for knowledge and my friendly relashions with people. The amount of data you have given to me is not sufficient to know if my friends will be there with me if I chose transhuman, and much probably I would not be a useful thinker, as there would be machines so faster and smarter than me. Here, I'm useful, and the world is useful to me, this fulfils my personal emotional needs, and, although I beleive that there it would also happen, I prefer to have 1 the guarantee 2 the amount of available time, provided by my normal life. Passionate Diego (Log At) Em Domingo 06 Fevereiro 2005 23:41, Rick escreveu: > Who among you would trade a guaranteed forty more years of natural human > decline and natural death (certain) for a guarantee of just twenty more > years of transhuman existence? The latter scenario would end just as the > former, with an absolute and of all that was you. You are being forced to > pick one of the two. > > Your transhuman makeover would start now and end twenty years from now. No > slower/faster than normal paced perceptions nor multiple instantiations > would be allowed and you will not be allowed to bestow any sorts of great > gifts (nor wreak any sorts of havoc) to humanity in part or in whole. Other > that that, you could be whatever you can imagine for the twenty years, > providing that the jenie of this thought experiment can employ the physical > laws of his universe to make it so. You are not allowed any further > information in making this decision, you will have to guess as to what > limits the jenie may find in this universe. You can however be assured that > all the mainstream dreams of today's transhumanists regarding the prospects > of nanotech and uploading can all be fully realized, along with more than > ninety percent of what ever else most of you can imagine. > > I *have* been mainly angered over the prospect of my own demise, but lately > have been looking favorably on the twenty years. I think that for me this > may mean that I hate certain aspects of being a natural human even more > than I am concerned with my continuing to exist. I fear my own thoughts. I > fear that I am unable to see the struggle (a sort of war really) that is > biology as a thing worthy of preservation. It has become increasingly > difficult to be green. Humor survives, but it isn't pretty. > > Which is it for you, avoiding death? Or, transcending the issues and limits > of a naturally evolved lifestyle? Resist the urge to not face the question > and claim they are equal, you must pick one. > > (I: 45 years done, expecting up to around fifty more, such as they may be) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Mon Feb 7 09:09:39 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:09:39 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <4206F42B.E0003F81@mindspring.com> References: <4206F42B.E0003F81@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200502070709.39020.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Praising nationalism is not something exactly good, also, it is not good against bush. I even think that the rest of what Bush does is not so harmful to the world as his nationalism, so, I would never follow a step that tells me to follow the patriots that made any nation. Being this nation the nation that keeps my own country poor, being that country the country that preceeded mine in trying to teach creationism in the schools, being that the country were geography books show part of my country as a international area under its control, being that the country that sustained the dictadorship in my country, for 21 year, well, I don't see any reasons why I should thank the patriots that have done this, sorry. Being that the nation in question, I would never ever thank anything on its historical politics. Plato have said that philosophers are never kings and kings are never philosophers. While this system prevails, I don't think i'll ever suport anything that exists in national scale, anywhere. Brazilian Diego (Log At) Em Segunda 07 Fevereiro 2005 02:52, Terry W. Colvin escreveu: > < http://www.alternet.org/story/21181/ > > > Since the election, many activists have lapsed into depression, believing > they are powerless to stop the wholesale destruction of the American dream. > Stuck in an abusive relationship with the administration? If so, a 12-step > program could be the answer. From eugen at leitl.org Mon Feb 7 12:18:38 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:18:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <1b56f520a4e9221b6934a4ea5806f7d3@mac.com> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> <1b56f520a4e9221b6934a4ea5806f7d3@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050207121838.GA1404@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 06:01:35PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Precisely why are you being rather uncharacteristically and seemingly > childishly snide? In my opinion whether we see the world as so I'm frustrated. It's easy enough to tell. > polarized that we largely subvert extropian goals is one of the most > important things we could talk about here. The U.S. is not the world, and I've elsewhere (repeatedly) noticed that allowing tagespolitik to creep in is a surefire recipe to let the list (any list, unless it's dedicated to trivia) go to the dogs. If I choose to focus primarily on technology it's not because politics is irrelevant, but because politics poisons the pool. Maybe it's time for an exi-politics@ (which I won't subscribe to). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Mon Feb 7 12:35:34 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:35:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Business of Nanotech In-Reply-To: <001701c50bff$9023f9d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <001701c50bff$9023f9d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050207123534.GC1404@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 07:54:30PM -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > This feature article just came out in Business Week magazine. > > "There's still plenty of hype, but nanotechnology is finally moving from > the lab to the marketplace. Get ready for cars, chips, and golf balls made > with new materials engineered down to the level of individual atoms" : OMG, WTF, LOL, imagine this... Nanotechnology is so powerful, it can even be used to build better golf balls! The mind boggles. What will these scientists think of next? Ok, I see it now. Translating into a CEO's direct experience domain. Probably would have worked better with "Nanoo!(tm)" sock puppets, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Feb 7 13:01:49 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:01:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [wta-talk] A second book project In-Reply-To: <5366105b05020516157ca9e0a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b05020516157ca9e0a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050207070039.03196858@pop-server.austin.rr.com> The eyes were most daunting. The illustrations most delicate. Spooked me. Natasha At 06:15 PM 2/5/2005, you wrote: >On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:52:43 -0500, Hughes, James J. > wrote: > > This hi-larious use of a saccharine children's book: > > > > http://www.bitfurnace.com/TheCuddlyMenace/ > > >Dammit! I just now independently found this link. Folks, this is >absolutely not to be missed. It reminds me of some the satire from >Orion's Arm. I have seen nothing better than this since Stross blogged >about an image of Cthulhu-Na-Gig. No link for that; it much too >dangerous. It left me temporarily blind). > >-- >Jay Dugger >BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ >HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ >LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger >Sometimes the delete key serves best. >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 14:44:51 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <4206F1C8.1BC20C3D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050207144452.1278.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote:> > Your comments ignore two indisputable facts: First, the Viet > Cong/Viet Minh were a large popular resistance faction that was in > action a long time before the CHINESE (not the Soviets as you claim) > began to support them. They effectively kicked the French out on > their own using the weapons that had been provided them to fight the > Japanese. While this is a popular lie promulgated among the left, the truth is markedly different. Anyone who knows anything about Dien Bien Phu knows that the artillery and anti-aircraft weaponry, both of immense and crucial importance in the NVA victory over the French there, were NOT of western manufacture, they were specifically Soviet made weapons, as were most infantry weapons used even then. There was a very good documentary this past weekend on the military channel covering the CIA front, Civil Air Transport (predecessor to Air America) and its involvement in supplying French forces at Dien Bien Phu. They had extensive interviews with Vietnamese soldiers and officers and NVA film archive footage. > > Second, the "democracy" the US gave the Viet Namese consisted of, in > order: Bao Dai, Diem, and Thieu. How, one might ask, could any of > these yardbirds win an honest election? You make the assumption that there are in fact honest politicians in power. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Feb 7 14:55:31 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:55:31 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050207121838.GA1404@leitl.org> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> <1b56f520a4e9221b6934a4ea5806f7d3@mac.com> <20050207121838.GA1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > The U.S. is not the world, and I've elsewhere (repeatedly) noticed > that > allowing tagespolitik to creep in is a surefire recipe to let the > list (any list, unless it's dedicated to trivia) go to the dogs. > > If I choose to focus primarily on technology it's not because > politics is irrelevant, but because politics poisons the pool. Agreed. I have watched an interesting and informative list go downhill fast because of political wrangling. Pity, too, as several of the best and most articulate members left. :C The politics had little to do with the real reason for the list, but that quickly became to most posted item. Regards, MB From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:24:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:24:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050118210046.49161.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050207162453.89757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://powerlineblog.com/archives/009475.php The above blog article clearly and conclusively debunks the claims of Bill Moyers regarding his claims that conservatives are intent on destroying the environment. Particularly, his quote attributed to Regan admin Interior Sect'y James Watt is entirely fabricated. It seems I'm seeing a lot more of this these days, where leftists are fabricating quotes out of whole cloth to attribute to their enemies in the belief that nobody will do any fact checking (at least nobody in the left controlled media). My recent experience with Dr. Pipes and the fabrications of islamists in smearing him are one notable example. Bill Moyers is a leftist, as I have previously said, a luddite of the midwest populist variety, who has been of immense importance in propagandizing to the American public that the leftist elites of the media the idea that they care about 'folk' like them. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From dirk at neopax.com Mon Feb 7 17:51:03 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:51:03 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050207144452.1278.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050207144452.1278.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4207AA87.5090907@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote:> > > >>Your comments ignore two indisputable facts: First, the Viet >>Cong/Viet Minh were a large popular resistance faction that was in >>action a long time before the CHINESE (not the Soviets as you claim) >>began to support them. They effectively kicked the French out on >>their own using the weapons that had been provided them to fight the >>Japanese. >> >> > >While this is a popular lie promulgated among the left, the truth is >markedly different. Anyone who knows anything about Dien Bien Phu knows > > http://www.vwam.com/vets/history.html yep! Read the official commie version... er... Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Feb 7 18:29:35 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:29:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050207162453.89757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050118210046.49161.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> <20050207162453.89757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050207122300.01b361d0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: >quote attributed to Regan >admin Interior Sect'y James Watt is entirely fabricated. Interesting! But it must have been `quite a news story in the early 1980s', because I was aware of it back then (and horrified by the alleged claim) in deepest darkest Oz. My news sources would have been conventional mass media; I didn't read specialized `leftist' journals, and the web didn't yet exist. Maybe I heard/read the rumor during a visit to the States late in 1981. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Feb 7 18:38:18 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:38:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lately the trend seems to be to more telecommuting. About friggin time! On Feb 3, 2005, at 1:09 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering recently, given the > still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody has started > developing body-locker type pod villages for low level tech workers to > reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to commute an hour each > way in the morning).... what is the word on this? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Feb 7 19:04:18 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:04:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050207121838.GA1404@leitl.org> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> <8fb77b9f9766a8c6434b597f5b22e727@mac.com> <20050203122910.GS1404@leitl.org> <1b56f520a4e9221b6934a4ea5806f7d3@mac.com> <20050207121838.GA1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2005, at 4:18 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2005 at 06:01:35PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> Precisely why are you being rather uncharacteristically and seemingly >> childishly snide? In my opinion whether we see the world as so > > I'm frustrated. It's easy enough to tell. > >> polarized that we largely subvert extropian goals is one of the most >> important things we could talk about here. > > The U.S. is not the world, and I've elsewhere (repeatedly) noticed that > allowing tagespolitik to creep in is a surefire recipe to let the > list (any list, unless it's dedicated to trivia) go to the dogs. The US is not the world. Fine, but it is the biggest economy, by far the strongest militarily and increasingly bent on forcing everything it can to go its way. So that the US is not the world hardly makes it prudent to ignore it. I'm probably being dense but what is tagespolitik?If we who share a heap of core values can not learn to communicate effectively about things political then I find that very demoralizing and troubling. I think we will hove to learn to do things a great deal more difficult than that. - samantha From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 19:37:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:37:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050207122300.01b361d0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050207193719.25106.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > > >quote attributed to Regan > >admin Interior Sect'y James Watt is entirely fabricated. > > Interesting! > > controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging, on the > theory > that Jesus would be back any day now. That would have been quite a > news > story in the early 1980s, had it been true.> > > But it must have been `quite a news story in the early 1980s', > because I was aware of it back then (and horrified by the alleged > claim) in deepest darkest Oz. My news sources would have been > conventional mass media; I didn't read specialized `leftist' > journals, and the web didn't yet exist. Maybe I heard/read the > rumor during a visit to the States late in 1981. One must distinguish between what Watt actually said and what the left editorial punditry accused him of. I too remember that the leftist editors in the mainstream media quite commonly excoriated him as a rapacious leveler of the wilderness, but this is merely left wing ad hominem, of the same sort that they spout when a fiscal conservative proposes not actual budget cuts, but reductions in the percent of growth in budgets, they scream how that pol is 'decimating' the government program (this was a common tactic against Gingrich in the 90's, for example.) What Watt was doing was to put the brakes on what had previously been a free hand control by left wing tree huggers over Interior and EPA, when he demanded that proposals have a scientific basis and he proposed the, then shocking, idea that wilderness could have multiple concurrent uses, not just that of cute photogenic fuzzy animals, but by groups of humans for, oh my god, profitable purposes. Shockers. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Feb 7 20:21:08 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:21:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050207202109.83070.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering > recently, given the > still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody > has started > developing body-locker type pod villages for low > level tech workers to > reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to > commute an hour each > way in the morning).... what is the word on this? Like Samantha said, telecommuting is finally on the rise. (As an anecdote, until last Tuesday I'd never met any of the people I'd been contracting for since August - and we only met each other last week because a potential business partner wanted to meet the team.) I'm not sure, but I suspect that regulations would require rather more than a body locker per person. Higher-than-intended density housing is permitted by the local city and county governments where you have extended families with nowhere else to go, but an effort that intended up front to cater to and legitimize the same among (relatively) medium-to-high-paid professionals (including low-level tech workers - base pay there is higher than base pay for, say, most government employees) would run into licensing problems. And then there's the related problem of where to build the thing: neighbors (and there are pre-existing neighbors almost everywhere, since almost all the land's developed) would object that it might decrease the value of their land (and thus protest to their elected representatives, who would summarily bar the project in order to keep their jobs). Maybe if ways can be found around that...but the only way off the top of my head involves locating it far enough away from the developed areas that you lose the commute benefits. An arcology would be easier to locate close enough to matter. (All that unused area in the San Francisco Bay, not to mention the Pacific coast. Or the sparsely-populated hills, though you'd probably have to pay for construction of better roads to handle the traffic you'd at least locally generate in order to get approval.) From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Feb 7 20:21:38 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:21:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Book recommendation [_The Great Influenza_] Message-ID: <4207CDD2.7BDE79A6@mindspring.com> I have just finished reading a lovely book: John M. Berry, _The Great Influenza_, and I wanted to recommend it to anyone who might be interested. For those not in this country, the book is primarily concerned with the progress of the disease in the US. It's popular history, but well documented, giving not only a history of the flu epidemic of 1918-19, but also a view of the USA at the time of WWI. The reminder of what the Wilson government did to optimize the war effort is quite timely; the ways in which that very war effort affected the course of the epidemic are fascinating. Very enjoyable book. I notice from the cover that the same author has written a history of the Mississippi flood of 1927; since as a child I had relatives who had lived through that and who talked of it as some sort of momentous event in their lives, I think I'll order that one and see how it does. Eleanor -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sjatkins at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 21:54:01 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:54:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [TransAct] [Fwd: [wta-politics] Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits] In-Reply-To: <4206D72A.8040608@humanenhancement.com> References: <4206D72A.8040608@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: <948b11e050207135448eb0775@mail.gmail.com> The US administration's attitude toward any research involving humon embryos is apparently not limited to lack of federal funding for same. Note the "rogue scientists" part below. Double plus not good. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Joseph Bloch Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:49:14 -0500 Subject: [TransAct] [Fwd: [wta-politics] Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits] To: transact at yahoogroups.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [wta-politics] Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:23:48 -0500 From: Hughes, James J. Reply-To: List for political news and discussion To: List for political news and discussion Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits Thu Feb 3, 2005 04:09 PM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush plans to press for even stricter limits on human embryo research and has no intention of softening restrictions on stem cell research, a senior administration official said on Thursday. The official doused speculation from activists and members of Congress who hoped a brief mention of medical research in Bush's State of the Union address on Wednesday night might mean he was being swayed by pressure from them. "I will work with Congress to ensure that human embryos are not created for experimentation or grown for body parts and that human life is never bought or sold as a commodity," Bush said on Wednesday night. Supporters of embryonic stem cell research studied the brief comment for some signal of change in the policy, which limits the use of federal funds for embryo research to a few batches that existed as of August 2001. But there was none, the official said, adding that the White House would pursue limits on other research conducted by what she called "rogue scientists." She referred to a 2003 experiment by Dr. Norbert Gleicher of the Foundation for Reproductive Medicine in Chicago, whose team injected male cells into female embryos. "This would prohibit that type of experimentation as well," the official said, adding Bush plans to lay out a detailed, broader bioethics agenda in the near future. Colorado Democratic Rep. Diana DeGette said if Bush wants ethical medical research, he should free up federal funding, not restrict it. "Only with the full force of the federal government, through the National Institutes of Health, can we ensure that scientific research is conducted ethically, with full respect for human life and human dignity," DeGette, a leading proponent of embryonic stem cell research said. Supporters of stem cell research in both the House and the Senate have said they have majorities to move ahead with legislation that would specifically authorize federal funding of the research, which doctors say has the potential to transform medicine. Specifically, supporters say they see nothing wrong with using embryos from fertility clinics, created in the process of making "test-tube" or IVF babies, that would otherwise be discarded. Stem cells are the body's master cells, giving rise to tissue and organs. Stem cells from days-old embryos have the ability to form any kind of tissue and scientists are working to learn how to manipulate them to create transplants to treat diseases ranging from diabetes to Alzheimer's to cancer. All rights reserved. Users may download and print extracts of content from this website for their own personal and non-commercial use only. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world. (c) Reuters 2005 Close This Window _______________________________________________ wta-politics mailing list wta-politics at transhumanism.org http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-politics ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> DonorsChoose. A simple way to provide underprivileged children resources often lacking in public schools. Fund a student project in NYC/NC today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EHLuJD/.WnJAA/cUmLAA/XgSolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TransAct/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TransAct-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dirk at neopax.com Mon Feb 7 22:22:43 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:22:43 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [TransAct] [Fwd: [wta-politics] Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits] In-Reply-To: <948b11e050207135448eb0775@mail.gmail.com> References: <4206D72A.8040608@humanenhancement.com> <948b11e050207135448eb0775@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4207EA33.8000807@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >The US administration's attitude toward any research involving humon >embryos is apparently not limited to lack of federal funding for same. > Note the "rogue scientists" part below. Double plus not good. > > > > Good news for Europe and Asia in that case. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Mon Feb 7 23:01:04 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:01:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Dear Hubert, I thought that I was/we were at a good stopping point on this topic, but there is one more thing that I would like to add. I wrote: >[...] There's some > interesting psychology studies that could be made here, that is, with > how many decades a culture needs to bring a horror out in the public > consiousness enough to talk about it. Hubert wrote: {humania at t-online.de Wed Feb 2] >This is absolutely true, Amara. It was only in the mid-eighties, >that not only those germans who lived through the war woke up to the >holocaust topic, but the shock wave splashed through the whole >nation and seized the younger generations, too. [...] >To summarize it in a very populistic and simplicistic style - this >topic is so complex, that email style writing almost seems >ridiculous to cover it: In the mid-eighties, the germans woke up to >full consciousness of the victim's sorrows and the holocaust topic. >While in the last seven years or so, some taboos, that were >suppressed for more than 60 years, are finally discussed. >Interestingly enough, it is a discourse about the sorrows of the >perpetrators. Most prominently: sexual violence against german >women by soldiers of the red army This. Are the German women speaking now, or are others speaking for them? The Soviet soldiers' instructions were: "Follow the words of Comrade Stalin, and crush forever the Fascist beast in its den. Break the racial pride of the German woman. Take her as your legitimate booty. Kill, you brave soldiers of the Victorious Soviet Army." [from Michael R. Marrus, _The Unwanted: European Refugees in the Twentieth Century_ (New York: Oxford University Press, 1985), 325-326. In May this year, when Moscow holds its large celebration for the 'Liberation' from the Nazis, what exactly are we supposed to be celebrating? At least two million German women along with thousands of refugee women were raped by the Soviet soldiers. At the end of the war, rape became the Soviet army's hallmark. They would pillage every home for food, alcohol and money, then they would rape every woman (age didn't matter), usually multiple times, and usually gang style. So then after the war, I wonder how many of those women committed suicide? And how many new births ? I don't know how 'common knowlege' is this facet of that war, but I read about this in a Baltic story: _A Woman in Amber_ by Agate Nesaule, 1995, Penguin books (*), in one particular chapter about a seige on a safeway house of German women and Baltic refugees by Soviet soldiers, who, for ten days, systematically raped (multiple times) every woman in the house with the exception of the author, who was five years old at the time. After one group of solders finished with them, a 'fresh' group of soldiers arrived, and so it continued. Women died in various ways, you hear about a torture killing with an umbrella (don't think too hard), the pasteur of the safehouse was shot by the old oak tree, too, while the rest were forced to line up and watch. I think that that little girl, the author, was probably traumatized by what she witnessed, and I'm sure that the rest of the women were. (*) This book is one of the most poignant books I have ever read. It won some awards, as well. It might be considered a complement to the book by Modris Eksteins. It follows one woman through her escape from Latvia, and then through her life into later years, when she is finally able to talk about what she experienced. Her stories are revealed when her spouse (a kind of soulmate), plants a few questions here and there, and she opens up. I was touched by his method to get her to talk. Hubert: > But there is this singular memory, that flashed up when I >read the book. You know, in the 1960s there was this saying, which, translated literally, went like this: "Oh, boy, you are completely >in the bucket" and it meant you were knocked out, severely punched, >something in that direction. As a 6 or 7 year old boy, I was asking >my mother what that could mean. Why the bucket? She did not know. >One of her sisters had witnessed the most devastating air raid >against the city of Braunschweig (half way between Hamburg and >Berlin, for list readers, Amara knows it). And she once mentioned >that after the raid people were carrying their burned relatives to >the cemetary in 10-litre-buckets, because they had been shrunk to a >size that fit into the very water buckets that were used to >extinguish the fires. But as they were phosphor bombs, the water >only intensified the firestorm. Nobody believed her that a burnt >adult person could fit into a ten litre bucket. When I read the book >"Der Brand" (The fire) I found out it was true that adults were >shrunk to the size to fit into a bucket and that these bodies were >carried to the cemetaries in water buckets. The saying "Oh boy, you >are completely in the bucket", certainly derived from that special >war memory. This, and these kinds of stories are precious, I hope you know. Thank you, again. Amara From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 01:53:00 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Message-ID: <20050208015300.90219.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick wrote: > Which is it for you, avoiding death? Or, > transcending the issues and limits > of a naturally evolved lifestyle? Resist the urge to > not face the question > and claim they are equal, you must pick one. Sorry, but THEY ARE EQUAL. To pretend that the decision between the two is a question that makes any sense is to misunderstand what exactly a transhumanist life is. It's like choosing between getting in the water and getting wet (in the normal sense - i.e., if you wear a wetsuit then go in the water, water's still on your suit, so you are still "wet"). One can get wet without going in water; one can live a while without >H stuff happening. But one can not go in the water without getting wet; to live a transhumanist lifestyle includes doing things that are likely to extend your life - possibly as a byproduct, possibly on purpose. For example: upload to a computer but your running process will disentigrate after 20 years? Then you've got 20 years of greatly increased intelligence to find a way to stop that - and there are quite a few ways we know would work already, mainly variations on backups. To claim "they just wouldn't work" is like claiming that gravity "just wouldn't work". Again, apologies for having to point this out, but to even ask the question is to misunderstand what a transhumanist is. There are questions, like this, where "none of the above" is the only correct answer. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 02:25:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:25:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: [TransAct] [Fwd: [wta-politics] Bush Signals Tougher Embryo Research Limits] In-Reply-To: <948b11e050207135448eb0775@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050208022548.68617.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > The US administration's attitude toward any research > involving humon > embryos is apparently not limited to lack of federal > funding for same. > Note the "rogue scientists" part below. Double > plus not good. True, but... > Supporters of stem cell research in both the House > and the Senate have > said they have majorities to move ahead with > legislation that would > specifically authorize federal funding of the > research, which doctors > say has the potential to transform medicine. That's the important part. Bush will have a tough time outlawing this research without Congress, and Congress doesn't seem to be bowing to the neo-Luddites here. BTW, in light of the contamination that's been discovered, would it be fair to call Bush's policy "Mickey Mouse stem cells"? ;) From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 02:30:43 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:30:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <4206F42B.E0003F81@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050208023043.99655.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > < http://www.alternet.org/story/21181/ > Best line in this article, IMO: > Democratic presidential candidates lost in the last > couple of elections because the public didn't know > who they were; they made the mistake of running as > "Republican Lite." I know quite a few people who voted for Bush only - _only_, mind you - because they were afraid Kerry would be the same as Bush only worse. Had there been a true Democrat, or at least a non-Republican, major party candidate after the nominations, Bush would not have gotten their votes. From aperick at centurytel.net Tue Feb 8 03:46:04 2005 From: aperick at centurytel.net (Rick) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:46:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 17, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <200502071908.j17J8fC29615@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000001c50d90$b92e2cf0$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> >"Reason" wrote: Option C: revolt against the oppressor. We are already being asked to choose between 10 years of one thing or 5 years of another. I'm not accepting that, so why accept this sort of thing? Boxes are for breaking out of - that is the essence of transhumanism. /> It was nothing more than a simple thought experiment. Yet I still find you revolting :) "Boxes are for breaking out of - that is the essence of transhumanism" -- I can agree with that. From aperick at centurytel.net Tue Feb 8 04:02:27 2005 From: aperick at centurytel.net (Rick) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:02:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Anyone know where Kevin Freels went? In-Reply-To: <200502071908.j17J8fC29615@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <000001c50d93$030af310$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> And, sorry about not editing the Subject line on that last post. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 04:28:15 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:28:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050207122300.01b361d0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502080428.j184SQC23574@tick.javien.com> > Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked > > At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > > >quote attributed to Regan > >admin Interior Sect'y James Watt is entirely fabricated. > > Interesting! > > controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging... > > But it must have been `quite a news story in the early 1980s', because I > was aware of it back then (and horrified by the alleged claim) in deepest > darkest Oz... > > Damien Broderick The internet is creating a new era. Political dirty tricks will be revealed. This fabricated James Watt quote will now be given much more circulation than it would have in the days when newspapers and other mainstream media controlled what we learned. I have no doubt that some papers at the time ran a retraction paragraph, perhaps on the lower left corner of page 34, after writing the original quote on the front page. The blogosphere has revealed rathergate, bombgate, the (so far) three opinion columnists who were taking money from the White House to promote its policies. Perhaps we will enter a time when long-believed and media-promoted fallacies will be gradually and finally corrected. Without the internet, how would we have ever heard of something James Watt didn't say 24 years ago? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 05:05:46 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:05:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <20050208023043.99655.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502080506.j1855qC27035@tick.javien.com> > ... Adrian Tymes > Subject: ... A Progressive 12-step Program > > --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > > < http://www.alternet.org/story/21181/ > > > Best line in this article, IMO: > > > Democratic presidential candidates lost in the last > > couple of elections because the public didn't know > > who they were; they made the mistake of running as > > "Republican Lite." > > I know quite a few people who voted for Bush only - > _only_, mind you - because they were afraid Kerry > would be the same as Bush only worse... Jeez, I was hoping someone would say that. I wonder if I am the only person who couldn't tell the difference between those two guys. I often thought all that senator guy would have needed to win was to differentiate himself, in some meaningful way, from the incumbent. I even listened to all the debates, still couldn't tell them apart, other than one was taller. It was a rerun of 2000. spike From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 8 05:15:52 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:15:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050203210930.46644.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050207211514.028dd6a8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Hey, Mike, out there, a troll is a troll is a troll..... At 01:09 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote: >Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering recently, given the >still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody has started >developing body-locker type pod villages for low level tech workers to >reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to commute an hour each >way in the morning).... what is the word on this? > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 8 05:02:19 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:02:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Godsquad gadgets In-Reply-To: References: <4201273B.A1FE0B9D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050207205426.028dd2d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> On the topic of G, a real life story a few days ago: Andrea rented a big truck to pick up a crate from Oakland last week. It got snarled in Customs, and Andrea compained the truck seat was too high for her to put her heel on the floor for the accelerator. We ended up stuck in a motel in Hayward. In the morning I asked her how much foot support she needed, which was about an inch - in the drawer of the nightstand was the solution, a Gideons Holy Bible. Worked fine. We get back to Santa Cruz, and Andrea hands me this Bible. I leave it leaning against a wall. A local homeless person wanders by, picks up the bible and starts reading it ..... It's true, the ways of God are unknowable to men..... ;) At 10:01 PM 2/2/2005, you wrote: >Wow, a bible that bursts into flames when I touch it! Gotta have one of >those. Should be able to scare off lots of fundies with such gear. >Of course it might lead to a forced exorcism. >A Bible which bursts into flames at the touch of a button will also >be on show during the Christian Resources Exhibition at the King's >Hall. >On Feb 2, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4227417.stm >> >>GodPods, holy golf balls and JCUK >>Most people have heard of an iPod, but what about a GodPod? >>It is a solar-powered speaking Bible which fits neatly into the >>pocket, is multi-lingual and designed to help people who have reading >>difficulties. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 05:48:39 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:48:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <200502080506.j1855qC27035@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050208054839.69553.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > Jeez, I was hoping someone would say that. I > wonder if I am the only person who couldn't > tell the difference between those two guys. I often thought > all that senator guy would have needed to win was to > differentiate himself, in some meaningful way, from the > incumbent. I even listened to all the debates, still couldn't > tell them apart, other than one was taller. It was a rerun > of 2000. They both fit the same archetype, except one is packaged for the CMT crowd, while the other is packaged for the Oxygen Network crowd. I have to nominate "This Land is My Land" by JibJab to be the best political satire of the 21st century, so far. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 05:52:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:52:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050207211514.028dd6a8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050208055254.14322.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Wasnt' intent on trolling. Had reread Snow Crash and have been looking at how far we are to triggering the sort of devolution that would result in the Snow Crash world. Was figuring that the Japanese bod pod style hotels should be marketable given the real estate rates in the Valley these days, and that these sortsa people would be pretty experienced with spending time in Japan on contracts as well. Why, was I hitting a nerve? --- Hara Ra wrote: > Hey, Mike, out there, a troll is a troll is a troll..... > > At 01:09 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote: > >Hey, for you all in the Valley, I've been wondering recently, given > the > >still sky-high cost of living out there, if anybody has started > >developing body-locker type pod villages for low level tech workers > to > >reside in locally (y'know, rather than having to commute an hour > each > >way in the morning).... what is the word on this? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Tue Feb 8 05:40:43 2005 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:40:43 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Chemical Architecture of the Human Mind In-Reply-To: References: <20050202212327.GZ1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050208083836.00ac8730@pop.cris.net> An interesting item: The Chemical Architecture of the Human Mind: Probing Receptor Space with Psychedelics by Tom Ray February 05, 2005 Last year, in a six part series, interdisciplinary neuroecoscientist Tom Ray shared a simplified version of his work on using psychedelics to probe and map the receptor space of the human mind here on Brain Waves. The following is a more technical overview of his brilliant work. http://www.corante.com/brainwaves/ http://www.neurosociety.com/ Permalink: http://www.corante.com/brainwaves/archives/the_chemical_architecture_of_the_human_mind_by_tom_ray.php Best! Gennady Simferopol Crimea Ukraine From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 07:27:02 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:27:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <20050208054839.69553.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502080727.j187R2C08609@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey > > I have to nominate "This Land is My Land" by JibJab to be the best > political satire of the 21st century, so far. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Loved that, had a party at my house, we played that JibJab routine about 5 times, laughed our butts off. Regarding living in cars (recognizing that was actually part of a different thread): I imagine many of us were close to that at some time in our lives. Or perhaps I am projecting. In the summer of 83 in Seattle, I would gladly have lived in a car, had I owned a car. It is much more difficult to live in a motorcycle, which was my only ride in those days, and I can assure you, it wasn't much of a motorcycle. Things did get better. If one goes out south and east of Phoenix, there is a large reservation where most of the inhabitants appear to be living in cars or some combination of car/lean-to/shack of some homemade sort. One can imagine all these SUVs and minivans we see today eventually becoming makeshift shelters for otherwise homeless masses. Looks to me like we could take junk cars, and instead of melting them down, create a vast... um... well, wasteland waaay out in the desert where people who just don't fit could go and tune in, turn on, drop out of society. We could send all the dope that was confiscated by the narcs, supply water and food in its rawest form, no cops, let people live in cars or whatever they wanted to put together, get as stoned as they wanted to be, stay that way 24/7. Looks like a win/win to me: society wouldn't need to deal with the problems, its way cheaper than any of the alternatives, empty the prisons of everyone who is there only because of drug offenses, send them out there, and the dopers just wanna get stoned, so everyone wins. Right? spike From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Feb 8 08:07:26 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:07:26 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050207122300.01b361d0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050118210046.49161.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> <20050207162453.89757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050207122300.01b361d0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4208733E.5090500@optusnet.com.au> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > >> quote attributed to Regan >> admin Interior Sect'y James Watt is entirely fabricated. > > > Interesting! > > controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging, on the theory > that Jesus would be back any day now. That would have been quite a news > story in the early 1980s, had it been true.> > Interesting, and depressing, that in the eighties it would have been "quite a news story", but now it is business as usual. -David From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 12:49:39 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 04:49:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <4208733E.5090500@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > > At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > > > > > controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging, on the > theory > > that Jesus would be back any day now. That would have been quite a > news > > story in the early 1980s, had it been true.> > > > > Interesting, and depressing, that in the eighties it would have > been "quite a news story", but now it is business as usual. Hardly. You've been listening to the media again. This is the same media of Rathergate, Toyotagate, among any number of other fake stories. They simply cannot stop beating the dead horse claim that republicans are environmental rapists. These people are socialists who want more land in government control for one reason only: more government land means higher credit limits for welfare state borrowing. Saving the cute and fuzzy creatures is a side effect, one which doesn't actually happen. Study after study shows that private land is better cared for than public, less likely to be polluted and more likely to retain biodiversity. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Feb 8 14:40:39 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 01:40:39 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4208CF67.2070004@optusnet.com.au> Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- David wrote: > > >>Damien Broderick wrote: >> >>>At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: >>> >>>>>controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging, on the >> >>theory >> >>>that Jesus would be back any day now. That would have been quite a >> >>news >> >>>story in the early 1980s, had it been true.> >>> >>Interesting, and depressing, that in the eighties it would have >>been "quite a news story", but now it is business as usual. > > > Hardly. You've been listening to the media again. This is the same > media of Rathergate, Toyotagate, among any number of other fake > stories. They simply cannot stop beating the dead horse claim that > republicans are environmental rapists. These people are socialists who > want more land in government control for one reason only: more > government land means higher credit limits for welfare state borrowing. > Saving the cute and fuzzy creatures is a side effect, one which doesn't > actually happen. Study after study shows that private land is better > cared for than public, less likely to be polluted and more likely to > retain biodiversity. I wasn't refering to the so-called environmental pillaging - being in Oz I have no evidence either way about US environments - but about a high official believing that the imminent rapture removes the need for any long distance planning. That somebody so obviously delusional could be in a position of significant power is what I meant was depressing. -david From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 15:41:48 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 07:41:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050208055254.14322.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502081542.j18Fg1C30054@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:53 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? > > Wasnt' intent on trolling. Had reread Snow Crash and have been looking > at how far we are to triggering the sort of devolution that would > result in the Snow Crash world. Was figuring that the Japanese bod pod > style hotels should be marketable given the real estate rates in the > Valley these days, and that these sortsa people would be pretty > experienced with spending time in Japan on contracts as well. > > Why, was I hitting a nerve? Not with me, I thought it a legitimate observation. All along the U.S. west coast, housing prices have been sustained at absurd levels, mostly thru artificial scarcity. To develop land here, one must pay off a long line of people, the greens, the natives, the politicians, everyone who lives nearby. For that reason, you can be sure someone will kill the bod pod notion. There just isn't enough money to get the interested parties to buy in. There is plenty of land, Mike. The shortage of housing is very much intentional. Its something this society will really need to deal with, for the poor, and now the middle class simply cannot afford housing in many places along the west coast. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 17:44:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:44:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <4208CF67.2070004@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050208174437.3394.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > > I wasn't refering to the so-called environmental pillaging - being in > Oz I have no evidence either way about US environments - but about a > high official believing that the imminent rapture removes the need > for any long distance planning. That somebody so obviously delusional > could be in a position of significant power is what I meant was > depressing. And what proof do you have that high officials believe in the imminence of the rapture? Bill Moyers (a now proven liar)? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 18:55:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <200502081542.j18Fg1C30054@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050208185552.73609.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > Not with me, I thought it a legitimate observation. All along > the U.S. west coast, housing prices have been sustained at absurd > levels, mostly thru artificial scarcity. To develop land here, > one must pay off a long line of people, the greens, the natives, > the politicians, everyone who lives nearby. For that reason, > you can be sure someone will kill the bod pod notion. There > just isn't enough money to get the interested parties to > buy in. There is plenty of land, Mike. The shortage of > housing is very much intentional. > > Its something this society will really need to deal with, > for the poor, and now the middle class simply cannot afford > housing in many places along the west coast. Have I got a deal for you, Spike (and the rest of you extropes feeling the pinch on the west coast). Airbus is going to be building an assembly plant in Portsmouth, NH at the old Pease Tradeport (Formerly Pease AFB) and is expected to create 6,000 jobs. When the Navy closes Portsmouth Shipyard, it is planned that Airbus will be shipping in fuselage sections from europe to that location. Airbus is doing this program to beat the Euro-Dollar exchange rate, as well as to eliminate the WTO issues of european subsidies of Airbus (whether they try to compete for US subsidies against Boeing is another question). I haven't got a link yet on this, just got it through the political grapevine yesterday. Other job opps: a chip R&D company is building a facility in Colebrook, NH and will be employing about 300 people. They are looking for engineering talent. http://www.sununu.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=224894&&year=2004& Those of you with just too much equity in your Silicon Valley homes could move to NH and be living large. As a point of comparison: Spike's home, which I am familiar with, as are a number of other extropes, would go for about $250-350k here in NH, depending on where it was located in the state, but would have a lot more land, typically at least an acre or two. Your cost of living would be much lower, and your extra equity could be earning you money on the market. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From sentience at pobox.com Tue Feb 8 19:02:39 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:02:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <20050208015300.90219.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208015300.90219.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42090CCF.9020004@pobox.com> I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. Some have replied: "Oh, you can't present me with that dilemma, there *must* be an option C". I think they don't realize how cruel the real universe can be. Tell it to humanity's dead. The question is fair. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 8 19:11:43 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:11:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous lies of this administration everything media has done or is alleged to have done is very small potatoes. - samantha bh On Feb 8, 2005, at 4:49 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- David wrote: > >> Damien Broderick wrote: >>> At 08:24 AM 2/7/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: >>> >>> >> controversial for was advocating environmental pillaging, on the >> theory >>> that Jesus would be back any day now. That would have been quite a >> news >>> story in the early 1980s, had it been true.> >>> >> >> Interesting, and depressing, that in the eighties it would have >> been "quite a news story", but now it is business as usual. > > Hardly. You've been listening to the media again. This is the same > media of Rathergate, Toyotagate, among any number of other fake > stories. They simply cannot stop beating the dead horse claim that > republicans are environmental rapists. These people are socialists who > want more land in government control for one reason only: more > government land means higher credit limits for welfare state borrowing. > Saving the cute and fuzzy creatures is a side effect, one which doesn't > actually happen. Study after study shows that private land is better > cared for than public, less likely to be polluted and more likely to > retain biodiversity. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 19:53:32 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050208185552.73609.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050208195332.86796.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Your cost of living would be much lower, and your > extra equity could be > earning you money on the market. Unfortunately, that mostly works only for those who are ready to retire from serious technical development as a career. (Or if you never were into tech as a career in the first place.) Sure, the costs are lower, but the salaries seem to be disproportionately lower in many cases. And then, possibly most importantly, there's the support network around here. You mention a few technical development jobs in NH. I can easily find thousands of employers looking for tech developers of all stripes around here, so many that I don't have to worry if one or a whole string of employers goes bankrupt. (For me, that's not just metaphor: that really did happen to three of my past employers in a row. And, yes, I can prove it was no fault of mine in each case.) What if you're a biotech developer? What if your specialty is in audio codecs or artificial intelligence? Or what if, being into tech yourself, you found a SO is also into tech - but one of the flavors that would be left out in the cold (no pun intended) by moving to NH? I appreciate the sentiment, but something about your pitch just seems...well, almost like you're talking down to us if you think one or two companies looking for help is anywhere near equal. So you might want to work on your pitch. (Or on developing NH so that it does surpass Silicon Valley.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 19:58:20 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:58:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <42090CCF.9020004@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050208195820.45673.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Some have replied: "Oh, you can't present me with > that dilemma, there > *must* be an option C". I think they don't realize > how cruel the real > universe can be. Tell it to humanity's dead. The > question is fair. Neg. The universe is unfeeling, true, but it plays by certain rules. It doesn't compassionately break them, but neither does it cruelly break them. Which means that if you set up a "transhumanist" life in a manner that can at least be backed up and restored, the universe isn't going to suddenly change things so you can't restore the backup. (Now, other people might destroy your backups, but then you have a choice to make more and/or prevent the destruction. People can change their minds and be cruel all they want.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 8 20:11:18 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:11:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Got Caliche?) A Progressive 12-step Program In-Reply-To: <20050208054839.69553.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050208201119.30469.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- spike wrote: > > Jeez, I was hoping someone would say that. I > > wonder if I am the only person who couldn't > > tell the difference between those two guys. I > often thought > > all that senator guy would have needed to win was > to > > differentiate himself, in some meaningful way, > from the > > incumbent. I even listened to all the debates, > still couldn't > > tell them apart, other than one was taller. It > was a rerun > > of 2000. Winning strategy: scare the other guy into being you to try to get votes. You, of course, have more practice at and thus will be better at being you. Doesn't work as well if there are several competitors, or if you have an opponent with enough backbone to be himself. (And it usually is "he".) > I have to nominate "This Land is My Land" by JibJab > to be the best > political satire of the 21st century, so far. Nice disqualifier, that. ;) But yeah, I'd agree. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Feb 8 21:43:44 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:43:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050208185552.73609.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502082144.j18Li1j05434@tick.javien.com> > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? > > > --- spike wrote: > > > > Its something this society will really need to deal with, > > for the poor, and now the middle class simply cannot afford > > housing in many places along the west coast. > > Have I got a deal for you, Spike (and the rest of you extropes feeling > the pinch on the west coast). Airbus is going to be building an > assembly plant in Portsmouth, NH... Mike Lorrey It has occurred to me to pack up and leave the Silly Clone Valley, but the place does have its advantages. My antique motorcycle group is languishing for a ride, any ride this time of year, while I am keeping four bikes on the road, and going out nearly every weekend. It is nearly the peak of spring here, and the pollen is killing me, but oh well, its worth it. {8.^D <----- (tear in the eye but happy anyway). Now with my parent's recently acquired farm in Oregon, I may be stuck here for the foreseeable. {8-] spike From reason at longevitymeme.org Tue Feb 8 23:32:44 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:32:44 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? Message-ID: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Eliezer Yudkowsky >I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman life, >for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. > >Some have replied: "Oh, you can't present me with that dilemma, there >*must* be an option C". I think they don't realize how cruel the real >universe can be. Tell it to humanity's dead. The question is fair. You missed my point: I was saying that in the real world there are always options C->infinity ... because you can always move the goalposts. By constraining yourself to visualizing dilemmas based on a given set of constraints, you deny your (transhumanist) ability to engineer a better set of constraints to live within. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Feb 8 23:39:21 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:39:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050208195332.86796.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208195332.86796.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <08f446beb33cde9888d49d9222bc13d9@mac.com> On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> Your cost of living would be much lower, and your >> extra equity could be >> earning you money on the market. > > Unfortunately, that mostly works only for those who > are ready to retire from serious technical > development as a career. (Or if you never were into > tech as a career in the first place.) Sure, the costs > are lower, but the salaries seem to be > disproportionately lower in many cases. And then, > possibly most importantly, there's the support network > around here. Boston and MIT are much too close for this to be all that creditable. Also telecommuting is quite viable. I'm not sure just what sort of support network you are referring to and I've been in the bay area for 28 years. Have I missed something critical for most of that time? > > You mention a few technical development jobs in NH. I > can easily find thousands of employers looking for > tech developers of all stripes around here, so many > that I don't have to worry if one or a whole string of > employers goes bankrupt. Tell it to dozens of unemployed techies I know personally. > > I appreciate the sentiment, but something about your > pitch just seems...well, almost like you're talking > down to us if you think one or two companies looking > for help is anywhere near equal. So you might want to > work on your pitch. (Or on developing NH so that it > does surpass Silicon Valley.) While there is some truth in what you say I think it wise to push our careers toward location independence as much as possible. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Feb 9 00:34:40 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:34:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wilmut gets human therapeutic cloning go-ahead Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050208183055.01982248@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1476087,00.html Cloning gets green light to find cure for nerve disease By Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent THE scientist who created Dolly the sheep will attempt to clone human embryos this summer after securing a licence to use the technique to find a cure for motor neurone disease. Ian Wilmut, of the Roslin Institute, near Edinburgh, was awarded Britain?s second licence to conduct therapeutic cloning yesterday by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, clearing the way for experiments to begin within months. His team, which includes researchers from King?s College London, will use the procedure to study motor neurone disease (MND), the devasting condition that has afflicted David Niven, the actor, and Don Revie, the former England football manager. By cloning cells from patients with the wasting disease, Professor Wilmut aims to create an unprecedented model for investigating the disorder?s causes and development. This will transform the prospects for developing an effective therapy, allowing scientists to test promising drugs on human cells in the laboratory rather than on animals or people. At present there is no cure for MND, in which the nerve cells that control the muscles degenerate and die. Around 5,000 patients in Britain are affected by the disease, most of whom die within two to five years of diagnosis. While human cloning for medical research has been legal in Britain since 2001, the Roslin-King?s team is only the second to be granted the required licence. Scientists at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne became the first to win approval last August. Professor Wilmut said that the work would not involve reproductive cloning. ?Our aim will be to generate stem cells purely for research purposes,? he said yesterday. ?The eggs we use will not be allowed to grow beyond 14 days. Once the stem cells are removed for cell culture, the remaining cells will be destroyed.? The goal of therapeutic cloning is to generate human embryonic stem (ES) cells that are genetically identical to patients? and can be used to grow either replacement tissues for transplant or model cells for investigating certain diseases. While the Newcastle group aims ultimately to use cloned ES cells to treat diseases such as diabetes, Professor Wilmut plans to employ them purely as laboratory tools. He aims to produce cloned ES cells using the DNA of adults with a genetic form of MND and coax these to develop into motor neurons ? the long nerve cells that transmit messages from the brain and spinal cord to the muscles. ?We will compare the behaviour and chemical profile of neurons with the gene defect to those without,? Christopher Shaw, of King?s, another member of the team, said. ?This will tell us about the earliest events that ultimately lead to cell death.? Groups who oppose all cloning and embryo research attacked the ruling, saying that it was far from certain that adult stem cells could not be used in the research. A representative of Comment on Reproductive Ethics said: ?Human cloning remains dangerous, undesirable and unnecessary.? [DB: note the typical absurd semantic confusion in the last sentence--`dangerous'?] From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 01:15:29 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:15:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <08f446beb33cde9888d49d9222bc13d9@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050209011529.16800.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I'm not sure > just what sort of > support network you are referring to and I've been > in the bay area for > 28 years. Have I missed something critical for > most of that time? Maybe. The sheer number of technically knowledgeable people around here makes it far easier to do F2F networking with people who could help out on a development venture. (Granted, this is the kind of sleazy social thing that some would like to ideally do away with - but it works today, which means it's a tool for building tomorrow.) Then there's things like a walk-in nanofabrication facility, telecommuting support services (delivery services, mainly, to make it easier to do without a central office, but also more extensive telecom infrastructure), specialty supply stores of all kinds (need some raw silicon for a chipmaking experiment today, can't wait for delivery, and don't have a pre-existing corporate PO with a supplier? No problem), elected officials who know how many of their voters are technologists and thus are not only friendly to but active supporters of same (to the point where, when a local school teacher tried to mix religion with history, the only people questioning his being put under review were from outside the district), nearly constant free-to-the-public seminars on all manner of new discoveries and developments...literally, it's more things than probably any one person is even aware of. The resources are just sitting there to be discovered and taken advantage of - so much so, that one won't have time to do even a large fraction of all that can be done. (The MIT area has some of this, but from what I hear, not quite the density of SV.) > > You mention a few technical development jobs in > NH. I > > can easily find thousands of employers looking for > > tech developers of all stripes around here, so > many > > that I don't have to worry if one or a whole > string of > > employers goes bankrupt. > > Tell it to dozens of unemployed techies I know > personally. The only unemployed techies I personally know fall roughly into three groups: * Demanding senior-level salaries for junior-level competence. (For example, $100,000 for grunt QA or simple HTML work. High level architects of QA strategies or masters of Web sites that get millions of visitors - not just hits, but actual people - a month, maybe. But not just "I can install a self-installing program" or "I can write a Web page".) * Personality problems that would be unemployable in any service industry. ("I'm always right, and you're not the boss of me even if you sign my paycheck!") * Sales, marketing, administrative, and managerial types who never actually did anything technical, but consider themselves "techies" because they used to work for a technology company. ("I designed a bold new radio ad campaign for a startup internet service provider that flopped. Aren't I 1337? I even know what that means!") Everyone I know (well enough to judge these three criteria, anyway) who has decent technical skills, is willing to accept what companies offer, and can at least kind of work with a team is presently employed. (More of them are self-employed these days than, say, in 2000, but so long as they get an income somehow...) Meanwhile, the local newspaper's classified section continues to grow, even as more companies and people look to online help wanted sites. > While there is some truth in what you say I think it > wise to push our > careers toward location independence as much as > possible. Oh, definitely. That's not always possible for all careers, especially not today, but it is something we can aim to realize in the future. (I may be on the leading edge of this: I've been working for a company since August, and I've only met anyone else in the company F2F once - and then only because a potential business partner wanted to meet the team. Although, my employer has on occasion had me working literally from the time I got up to the time I went to bed, with barely enough time for stuff like grabbing food and bathroom breaks. Even right now, with my part of the current build done, I've been monitoring for emergency requests for assistance while I check my email; I hope to have a chance to get dressed and walk around some - get at least a little exercise today - in an hour or so.) From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Feb 9 01:26:58 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:26:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> Message-ID: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous lies of this > administration everything media has done or is alleged to have done is > very small potatoes. Yes, yes, yes. A hundred times yes. What's going on in this country? - a plague of AADD? (for how quickly "we" seem to forget). The lies of this administration have been unprecedented in their audacity, smugness, shiftiness, and self-righteousness. Where's the accountability? Does anyone care about integrity anymore? (and ...What's happening to the hitherto-implicit respect for science?) And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question before: Where's the outrage? Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 02:42:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:42:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wilmut gets human therapeutic cloning go-ahead In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050208183055.01982248@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050209024238.26985.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1476087,00.html > > Cloning gets green light to find cure for nerve disease > > By Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent > > THE scientist who created Dolly the sheep will attempt to clone human > embryos this summer after securing a licence to use the technique to > find a cure for motor neurone disease. Looks like the Brits are hot on not letting this space race pass them by this time. Meanwhile the California legislature wants to ban cloned kitties, apparently its a crime against nature for a few more cats to be underfoot. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 03:17:49 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:17:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050209031749.11810.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Samantha Atkins" > > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous > lies of this > > administration everything media has done or is > alleged to have done is > > very small potatoes. > > Yes, yes, yes. A hundred times yes. > > What's going on in this country? - a plague of AADD? > (for how quickly "we" > seem to forget). > > The lies of this administration have been > unprecedented in their audacity, > smugness, shiftiness, and self-righteousness. > Where's the accountability? > Does anyone care about integrity anymore? (and > ...What's happening to the > hitherto-implicit respect for science?) > > And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question > before: Where's the > outrage? Samantha said it well. The media was supposed to be that which stirred up the outrage - but then it started sparking outrage to bump its own sales, and began losing its ability to generate outrage. Look, for example, at what happened to CBS during the election: it wanted so bad to make some outrage and attract viewers that it let not-too-hard-to-spot forgeries through as "evidence". Also, the entire government is starting to be viewed as dishonest and corrupt. What does it say when President Bush, who sets the tone for the entire Executive Branch, cleans his cabinet of those who pointed out his lies and rewarded those who repeated his lies? What does it say when Congress passes law after law that is unconstitutional on its face, and when the courts say as much, Congress's response is to complain about judges "legislating from the bench" and entertain the notion of stripping the Judicial Branch of its powers? Those who want truth and honesty start leaving government to those who would pursue even more corrupt policies. From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Wed Feb 9 03:34:41 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 04:34:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Where Science Meets Art Message-ID: <20050209032738.M16802@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Where Science Meets Art http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4111499 I hope when my new-used computer finally arrives (I'm managing my computing with a memory-sticks attached to various other computers during these last several weeks), it will have the software for listening to these NPR broadcasts. The description of these Morning Edition programs look great. Amara From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Feb 9 04:18:11 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:18:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof References: <20050209031749.11810.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c50e5e$5e87cd00$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Adrian Tymes" > Samantha said it well. The media was supposed to be > that which stirred up the outrage - but then it > started sparking outrage to bump its own sales, and > began losing its ability to generate outrage. Look, > for example, at what happened to CBS during the > election: it wanted so bad to make some outrage and > attract viewers that it let not-too-hard-to-spot > forgeries through as "evidence". The CBS incident has continued to perplex me. The tactics employed by CBS and Dan Rather were wrong, wrong, wrong (and the imbroglio actually served the Repubs by taking away the focus from Bush's embarrasing "military" record and throwing the spotlight on CBS's and Rather's credibility), but didn't Bush in fact *get* preferential treatment during his military stint? Is there any doubt about this? Observe: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/09/29/notes092904.DTL&nl=fix > Also, the entire government is starting to be viewed > as dishonest and corrupt. What does it say when > President Bush, who sets the tone for the entire > Executive Branch, cleans his cabinet of those who > pointed out his lies and rewarded those who repeated > his lies? What does it say when Congress passes law > after law that is unconstitutional on its face, and > when the courts say as much, Congress's response is to > complain about judges "legislating from the bench" and > entertain the notion of stripping the Judicial Branch > of its powers? Those who want truth and honesty start > leaving government to those who would pursue even more > corrupt policies. Yes, so sad. And we probably haven't plumbed the depths of this black hole yet. Even Christopher Hitchens - who is an *Iraq war supporter* (in a March 2003 Vanity Fair article) - presents what he calls "non-wacko" evidence that something was seriously wrong with the voting process in Ohio. Very disturbing stuff. Olga From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Feb 9 04:30:22 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:30:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof References: <20050209031749.11810.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c50e60$12282fc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Adrian Tymes" > Also, the entire government is starting to be viewed > as dishonest and corrupt. What does it say when > President Bush, who sets the tone for the entire > Executive Branch, cleans his cabinet of those who > pointed out his lies and rewarded those who repeated > his lies? What does it say when Congress passes law > after law that is unconstitutional on its face, and > when the courts say as much, Congress's response is to > complain about judges "legislating from the bench" and > entertain the notion of stripping the Judicial Branch > of its powers? Those who want truth and honesty start > leaving government to those who would pursue even more > corrupt policies. Aaahhhhhhhh, and there's *more* bad news (I just found this - the Devil is in the details ... he's all over them, in fact): "Empowering Rove in this way shows that Bush cares more about political positioning than honest policy discussions," DNC Chairman Terence R. McAuliffe said in a statement. "Bush knows that Rove is neither an economic nor a national security expert; he's simply an ideological strategist who has a history of bending the truth and using dirty tricks to get his way.": http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9308-2005Feb8.html Olga From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Wed Feb 9 05:39:59 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 06:39:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] passports Message-ID: <20050209053611.M58825@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Those of you who need to renew your U.S. passport, or else apply for a new one, might want to speed up your procedures. This year, perhaps soon this Spring, the US State Department will issue US passports with RFID chips, making the owners particularly vulnerable to identity thieves, stalkers, and professional data collectors. Apparently these new measures smoothly passed through the International Civil Aviation Association, and over objections from Germany, Britain and other nations. I wonder if US citizens are aware of what their passports will soon carry? Given this new government stupidity, there are ways to protect your personal data from eavesdroppers, and that is to wrap your passport in aluminum foil. (Expect to see aluminum-wrapped passport holders on the market soon.) www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,65412,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 Amara From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 9 07:34:35 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:34:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <001401c50e5e$5e87cd00$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <200502090735.j197Yvj05887@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin > ... > The CBS incident has continued to perplex me. The tactics employed by CBS > and Dan Rather were wrong, wrong, wrong (and the imbroglio actually served > the Repubs by taking away the focus from Bush's embarrasing "military" > record and throwing the spotlight on CBS's and Rather's credibility), but > didn't Bush in fact *get* preferential treatment during his military > stint? Is there any doubt about this? Observe: > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/09/29/notes092904.DTL&nl=f ix ... > > Olga Olga the sfgate site is exactly the kind of stuff that got w elected. All shrill screechy accusation, no actual evidence. I see little difference between what this site is doing and what cBS did. Serious accusations require serious proof. Is there any doubt about this? Well, yes. Without defending w, I can easily imagine an alternate scenario. The commander has a young officer that isn't particularly valuable. There are plenty of F102 jockeys and no real application for them. The young officer wants to go to Harvard for an MBA. A Harvard MBA would be enormously valuable to the commander, so he makes a handshake agreement with the lieutenant: go get that MBA, and you still owe us 6 years afterwards if we need you, stay at it, don't quit. No documents are made or filed, none needed. Of course I have no evidence of this, but I am not accusing anyone of a crime. For a soldier, disobeying a direct legal order is a crime. Forgery is a crime. But speculation is perfectly legitimate. When cBS accused w of disregarding an order, using falsified evidence, it committed a crime that changed the way we look at the mainstream media. The sfgate site accuses Carl Rove of creating the forgeries, but does not attempt to prove it, doesn't offer a shred of evidence. Is not this exactly the kind of stuff that is pushing the U.S. to the right? spike From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 08:30:00 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:30:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050209082959.GL1404@leitl.org> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 05:26:58PM -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question before: Where's the > outrage? There is none, since this administration represents what the majority of the US stands for. It's the government you've voted for, and deserve. The rest of the world is observing, and taking notes. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 08:59:06 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 00:59:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <1d74368f5461823f53a781a735e221a2@mac.com> On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Samantha Atkins" > >> This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous lies of this >> administration everything media has done or is alleged to have done >> is very small potatoes. > > Yes, yes, yes. A hundred times yes. > > What's going on in this country? - a plague of AADD? (for how quickly > "we" seem to forget). My theory is that the truth is bad enough that most people nearly instinctively wiggle out of ever looking it straight in the eye. I am not immune to that myself though I try to notice when it is happening. It looks to me like our natural proclivities in this regard have been carefully cultivated, boosted and relentlessly manipulated. > > The lies of this administration have been unprecedented in their > audacity, smugness, shiftiness, and self-righteousness. Where's the > accountability? Does anyone care about integrity anymore? (and > ...What's happening to the hitherto-implicit respect for science?) there has always been a real anti-intellectual undercurrent in the US. Now it is above ground and increasingly flaunting its immunity to reason. > > And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question before: Where's the > outrage? > That may be the scariest part of all. Especially when I notice that my own outrage slips away all too easily. Maybe they did but something in the water or otherwise perfect population control. - samantha From humania at t-online.de Wed Feb 9 09:07:05 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:07:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <003001c50e86$bc5327e0$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z> I said: > >Interestingly enough, it is a discourse about the sorrows of the > >perpetrators. Most prominently: sexual violence against german > >women by soldiers of the red army Amara said: > This. > > Are the German women speaking now, or are others speaking for > them? They are speaking now for themselves, Amara. At least a handful of those who survived. In books and tv-magazines. But it took them 5 or 6 decades to get rid of their shame and talk about it. While Germany was separated, it was un-pc to critizise the Red Army, especially in East Germany where the motto was: "Learning from the Soviet Union means learning how to win". While we, in the West, were told the same about the USA. In times of Cold War there was this silent agreement among Germans, that Russian atrocities against German women or British and US air raids against German cities should not be discussed in public. German soldiers had committed awful crimes, so wasn't it more than jusitified to endure the "punishments" of the victorious powers? And didn't they free uns from the Nazi terror, by the way? There has been total war on both sides and it might have been justified for allied bomber pilots in February to erase the city of Dresden. If any author in the 1970s would have used the used the word "cremate" to describe the death of Dresden population he would have been called "revisionist" or even worse names. It had been the *Jews* who were cremated in Treblinka and Auschwitz. The half a million burnt German victims of allied bombings were accepted as war casualties, and discussing the shadow sides of the good guys, with allied plans to kill at least 3 million civilians with the intention to provoke a riot against Hitler, was un-pc in times of Cold War, when West Germany was the most important ally of the USA against communism. As I said before, it took more than half a century for the German nation to be able to hesitantly talk about the shadow sides of the victors who, in the name of freedom and democracy, erased 162 cities. Another delicate and awkward factor in this discussion is the fact that this topic had always been enunciated by extreme right wing parties to qualify (relativize) the Nazi crimes. So, today if you want to have an open discussion about this topic you first have to make disclaimer statements, not to be a neo nazi. > This, and these kinds of stories are precious, I hope you know. > Thank you, again. > > Amara Thank you, too, Amara, for your listening and understanding Herzlichst Hubert From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 09:14:29 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:14:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20050209031749.11810.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209031749.11810.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:17 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Samantha said it well. The media was supposed to be > that which stirred up the outrage - but then it > started sparking outrage to bump its own sales, and > began losing its ability to generate outrage. Look, > for example, at what happened to CBS during the > election: it wanted so bad to make some outrage and > attract viewers that it let not-too-hard-to-spot > forgeries through as "evidence". Hmm. what part of that was i supposed to have said? Take a look at the book "Buzzsaw" about the investigative reporters fired and silenced in recent times for attempting to bring inconvenient truths to light. I don't think the media somehow failed us all by their lonesome. I also hove a sneaking suspicion there was a lot more to the CBS story than has met the public eye. I think CBS was served an exaggerated rap providing cover for something inconvenient to the administration. I won't be surprised if such comes out a ways down the road. i never take such convenient events at face value especially during a tight election. > Also, the entire government is starting to be viewed > as dishonest and corrupt. What does it say when > President Bush, who sets the tone for the entire > Executive Branch, cleans his cabinet of those who > pointed out his lies and rewarded those who repeated > his lies? What does it say when Congress passes law > after law that is unconstitutional on its face, and > when the courts say as much, Congress's response is to > complain about judges "legislating from the bench" and > entertain the notion of stripping the Judicial Branch > of its powers? Those who want truth and honesty start > leaving government to those who would pursue even more > corrupt policies. It says that it is getting deep fast and that it may be good to shovel toward the exits. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 09:37:39 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:37:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200502090735.j197Yvj05887@tick.javien.com> References: <200502090735.j197Yvj05887@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <231b670e706327223496d721165c2f9c@mac.com> On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:34 PM, spike wrote: > > Of course I have no evidence of this, but I am not accusing > anyone of a crime. For a soldier, disobeying a direct legal order > is a crime. Forgery is a crime. But speculation is perfectly > legitimate. When cBS accused w of disregarding an order, > using falsified evidence, it committed a crime that changed > the way we look at the mainstream media. The sfgate site > accuses Carl Rove of creating the forgeries, but does not attempt > to prove it, doesn't offer a shred of evidence. Is not this > exactly the kind of stuff that is pushing the U.S. to the > right? > > Actually I try to keep in mind "all that is necessary for evil to win is for the good to do nothing". Right up there is crucifying media for any error, shoddiness or lack of proof while doing nothing and keeping silent when our supposed leaders repeat known and well exposed lies endlessly and practice levels of blatant dishonesty and dirty tricks and even outright mayhem that no other group would ever be allowed to get away with. No the impotent outrage of the few is not to blame. The blame is with the State and those who sell themselves to it. From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 09:43:25 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:43:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209082959.GL1404@leitl.org> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> <20050209082959.GL1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2005, at 12:30 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 05:26:58PM -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > >> And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question before: Where's the >> outrage? > > There is none, since this administration represents what the majority > of the > US stands for. It's the government you've voted for, and deserve. > > The rest of the world is observing, and taking notes. > > Are you sure this is what we voted for? Are you vetting the last election? Do any people really deserve destruction at the hands of their supposed servants? Do those within and without the US who did not vote for this also deserve whatever hell it turns out to be? From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 10:40:15 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:40:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pro nuclear article in wired Message-ID: <26869c1f7ee36d4f88aa3ae6e69c7cce@mac.com> Just when i was ready to chuck the pulp as one big commercial I came across this exceptionally refreshing piece. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/nuclear.html? pg=1&topic=nuclear&topic_set= From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 10:51:58 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:51:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> <20050209082959.GL1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Are you sure this is what we voted for? Are you vetting the last Yes. Nobody contested the vote. It look as if a small majority (i.e. trees and shrubs voting vor Bush) voted for this administration. No secession, no armed uprise, no emigration. Yep, you voted for them. > election? Do any people really deserve destruction at the hands of > their supposed servants? Do those within and without the US who did Is that a rhetorical question? If no, I see exactly zero unrest, and people marching on the streets. Yes, you have the government you deserve. > not vote for this also deserve whatever hell it turns out to be? I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that the only countries that are safe are those with credible deterrence potential. Unfortunately, the EU is too slow to realize that, and start investing in a nuclear umbrella (teaming up with Russia would seem like a good idea), as well as the ability to protect its assets in orbit and/or be able to terminate enemy assets. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 11:17:16 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:17:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pro nuclear article in wired In-Reply-To: <26869c1f7ee36d4f88aa3ae6e69c7cce@mac.com> References: <26869c1f7ee36d4f88aa3ae6e69c7cce@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050209111716.GV1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:40:15AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Just when i was ready to chuck the pulp as one big commercial I came > across this exceptionally refreshing piece. You call this refreshing? It's chock-full of old cliches about renewable power and nuke both. > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/nuclear.html? > pg=1&topic=nuclear&topic_set= I'm posting the piece in full, so other people can comment on it properly. Nuclear Now! How clean, green atomic energy can stop global warming By Peter Schwartz and Spencer ReissPage 1 of 5 next ? On a cool spring morning a quarter century ago, a place in Pennsylvania called Three Mile Island exploded into the headlines and stopped the US nuclear power industry in its tracks. What had been billed as the clean, cheap, limitless energy source for a shining future was suddenly too hot to handle. In the years since, we've searched for alternatives, pouring billions of dollars into windmills, solar panels, and biofuels. We've designed fantastically efficient lightbulbs, air conditioners, and refrigerators. We've built enough gas-fired generators to bankrupt California. But mainly, each year we hack 400 million more tons of coal out of Earth's crust than we did a quarter century before, light it on fire, and shoot the proceeds into the atmosphere. The consequences aren't pretty. Burning coal and other fossil fuels is driving climate change, which is blamed for everything from western forest fires and Florida hurricanes to melting polar ice sheets and flooded Himalayan hamlets. On top of that, coal-burning electric power plants have fouled the air with enough heavy metals and other noxious pollutants to cause 15,000 premature deaths annually in the US alone, according to a Harvard School of Public Health study. Believe it or not, a coal-fired plant releases 100 times more radioactive material than an equivalent nuclear reactor - right into the air, too, not into some carefully guarded storage site. (And, by the way, more than 5,200 Chinese coal miners perished in accidents last year.) Burning hydrocarbons is a luxury that a planet with 6 billion energy-hungry souls can't afford. There's only one sane, practical alternative: nuclear power. We now know that the risks of splitting atoms pale beside the dreadful toll exacted by fossil fuels. Radiation containment, waste disposal, and nuclear weapons proliferation are manageable problems in a way that global warming is not. Unlike the usual green alternatives - water, wind, solar, and biomass - nuclear energy is here, now, in industrial quantities. Sure, nuke plants are expensive to build - upward of $2 billion apiece - but they start to look cheap when you factor in the true cost to people and the planet of burning fossil fuels. And nuclear is our best hope for cleanly and efficiently generating hydrogen, which would end our other ugly hydrocarbon addiction - dependence on gasoline and diesel for transport. Some of the world's most thoughtful greens have discovered the logic of nuclear power, including Gaia theorist James Lovelock, Greenpeace cofounder Patrick Moore, and Britain's Bishop Hugh Montefiore, a longtime board member of Friends of the Earth (see "Green vs. Green," page 82). Western Europe is quietly backing away from planned nuclear phaseouts. Finland has ordered a big reactor specifically to meet the terms of the Kyoto Protocol on climate change. China's new nuke plants - 26 by 2025 - are part of a desperate effort at smog control. Even the shell-shocked US nuclear industry is coming out of its stupor. The 2001 report of Vice President Cheney's energy task force was only the most high profile in a series of pro-nuke developments. Nuke boosters are especially buoyed by more efficient plant designs, streamlined licensing procedures, and the prospect of federal subsidies. In fact, new plants are on the way, however tentatively. Three groups of generating companies have entered a bureaucratic maze expected to lead to formal applications for plants by 2008. If everything breaks right, the first new reactors in decades will be online by 2014. If this seems ambitious, it's not; the industry hopes merely to hold on to nuclear's current 20 percent of the rapidly growing US electric power market. That's not nearly enough. We should be shooting to match France, which gets 77 percent of its electricity from nukes. It's past time for a decisive leap out of the hydrocarbon era, time to send King Coal and, soon after, Big Oil shambling off to their well-deserved final resting places - maybe on a nostalgic old steam locomotive. Besides, wouldn't it be a blast to barrel down the freeway in a hydrogen Hummer with a clean conscience as your copilot? Or not to feel like a planet killer every time you flick on the A/C? That's how the future could be, if only we would get over our fear of the nuclear bogeyman and forge ahead - for real this time - into the atomic age. The granola crowd likes to talk about conservation and efficiency, and surely substantial gains can be made in those areas. But energy is not a luxury people can do without, like a gym membership or hair gel. The developed world built its wealth on cheap power - burning firewood, coal, petroleum, and natural gas, with carbon emissions the inevitable byproduct. Indeed, material progress can be tracked in what gets pumped out of smokestacks. An hour of coal-generated 100-watt electric light creates 0.05 pounds of atmospheric carbon, a bucket of ice makes 0.3 pounds, an hour's car ride 5. The average American sends nearly half a ton of carbon spewing into the atmosphere every month. Europe and Japan are a little more economical, but even the most remote forest-burning peasants happily do their part. And the worst - by far - is yet to come. An MIT study forecasts that worldwide energy demand could triple by 2050. China could build a Three Gorges Dam every year forever and still not meet its growing demand for electricity. Even the carbon reductions required by the Kyoto Protocol - which pointedly exempts developing countries like China - will be a drop in the atmospheric sewer. What is a rapidly carbonizing world to do? The high-minded answer, of course, is renewables. But the notion that wind, water, solar, or biomass will save the day is at least as fanciful as the once-popular idea that nuclear energy would be too cheap to meter. Jesse Ausubel, director of the human environment program at New York's Rockefeller University, calls renewable energy sources "false gods" - attractive but powerless. They're capital- and land-intensive, and solar is not yet remotely cost-competitive. Despite all the hype, tax breaks, and incentives, the proportion of US electricity production from renewables has actually fallen in the past 15 years, from 11.0 percent to 9.1 percent. The decline would be even worse without hydropower, which accounts for 92 percent of the world's renewable electricity. While dams in the US are under attack from environmentalists trying to protect wild fish populations, the Chinese are building them on an ever grander scale. But even China's autocrats can't get past Nimby. Stung by criticism of the monumental Three Gorges project - which required the forcible relocation of 1 million people - officials have suspended an even bigger project on the Nu Jiang River in the country's remote southwest. Or maybe someone in Beijing questioned the wisdom of reacting to climate change with a multibillion-dollar bet on rainfall. Solar power doesn't look much better. Its number-one problem is cost: While the price of photovoltaic cells has been slowly dropping, solar-generated electricity is still four times more expensive than nuclear (and more than five times the cost of coal). Maybe someday we'll all live in houses with photovoltaic roof tiles, but in the real world, a run-of-the-mill 1,000-megawatt photovoltaic plant will require about 60 square miles of panes alone. In other words, the largest industrial structure ever built. Wind is more promising, which is one reason it's the lone renewable attracting serious interest from big-time equipment manufacturers like General Electric. But even though price and performance are expected to improve, wind, like solar, is inherently fickle, hard to capture, and widely dispersed. And wind turbines take up a lot of space; Ausubel points out that the wind equivalent of a typical utility plant would require 300 square miles of turbines plus costly transmission lines from the wind-scoured fields of, say, North Dakota. Alternatively, there's California's Altamont Pass, where 5,400 windmills slice and dice some 1,300 birds of prey annually. What about biomass? Ethanol is clean, but growing the amount of cellulose required to shift US electricity production to biomass would require farming - no wilting organics, please - an area the size of 10 Iowas. Among fossil fuels, natural gas holds some allure; it emits a third as much carbon as coal. That's an improvement but not enough if you're serious about rolling back carbon levels. Washington's favorite solution is so-called clean coal, ballyhooed in stump speeches by both President Bush (who offered a $2 billion research program) and challenger John Kerry (who upped the ante to $10 billion). But most of the work so far has been aimed at reducing acid rain by cutting sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions, and more recently gasifying coal to make it burn cleaner. Actual zero-emissions coal is still a lab experiment that even fans say could double or triple generating costs. It would also leave the question of what to do with 1 million tons of extracted carbon each year. By contrast, nuclear power is thriving around the world despite decades of obituaries. Belgium derives 58 percent of its electricity from nukes, Sweden 45 percent, South Korea 40, Switzerland 37 percent, Japan 31 percent, Spain 27 percent, and the UK 23 percent. Turkey plans to build three plants over the next several years. South Korea has eight more reactors coming, Japan 13, China at least 20. France, where nukes generate more than three-quarters of the country's electricity, is privatizing a third of its state-owned nuclear energy group, Areva, to deal with the rush of new business. The last US nuke plant to be built was ordered in 1973, yet nuclear power is growing here as well. With clever engineering and smart management, nukes have steadily increased their share of generating capacity in the US. The 103 reactors operating in the US pump out electricity at more than 90 percent of capacity, up from 60 percent when Three Mile Island made headlines. That increase is the equivalent of adding 40 new reactors, without bothering anyone's backyard or spewing any more carbon into the air. So atomic power is less expensive than it used to be - but could it possibly be cost-effective? Even before Three Mile Island sank, the US nuclear industry was foundering on the shoals of economics. Regulatory delays and billion-dollar construction-cost overruns turned the business into a financial nightmare. But increasing experience and efficiency gains have changed all that. Current operating costs are the lowest ever - 1.82 cents per kilowatt-hour versus 2.13 cents for coal-fired plants and 3.69 cents for natural gas. The ultimate vindication of nuclear economics is playing out in the stock market: Over the past five years, the stocks of leading nuclear generating companies such as Exelon and Entergy have more than doubled. Indeed, Exelon is feeling so flush that it bought New Jersey's Public Service Enterprise Group in December, adding four reactors to its former roster of 17. This remarkable success suggests that nuclear energy realistically could replace coal in the US without a cost increase and ultimately lead the way to a clean, green future. The trick is to start building nuke plants and keep building them at a furious pace. Anything less leaves carbon in the climatic driver's seat. A decade ago, anyone thinking about constructing nuclear plants in the US would have been dismissed as out of touch with reality. But today, for the first time since the building of Three Mile Island, new nukes in the US seem possible. Thanks to improvements in reactor design and increasing encouragement from Washington, DC, the nuclear industry is posed for unlikely revival. "All the planets seem to be coming into alignment," says David Brown, VP for congressional affairs at Exelon. The original US nuclear plants, built during the 1950s and '60s, were descended from propulsion units in 1950s-vintage nuclear submarines, now known as generation I. During the '80s and '90s, when new construction halted in the US, the major reactor makers - GE Power Systems, British-owned Westinghouse, France's Framatome (part of Areva), and Canada's AECL - went after customers in Europe. This new round of business led to system improvements that could eventually, after some prototyping, be deployed back in the US. By all accounts, the latest reactors, generation III+, are a big improvement. They're fuel-efficient. They employ passive safety technologies, such as gravity-fed emergency cooling rather than pumps. Thanks to standardized construction, they may even be cost-competitive to build - $1,200 per kilowatt-hour of generating capacity versus more than $1,300 for the latest low-emission (which is not to say low-carbon) coal plants. But there's no way to know for sure until someone actually builds one. And even then, the first few will almost certainly cost more. Prodded by the Cheney report, the US Department of Energy agreed in 2002 to pick up the tab of the first hurdle - getting from engineering design to working blueprints. Three groups of utility companies and reactor makers have stepped up for the program, optimistically dubbed Nuclear Power 2010. The government's bill to taxpayers for this stage of development could top $500 million, but at least we'll get working reactors rather than "promising technologies." But newer, better designs don't free the industry from the intense public oversight that has been nuclear power's special burden from the start. Believe it or not, Three Mile Island wasn't the ultimate nightmare; that would be Shoreham, the Long Island power plant shuttered in 1994 after a nine-year legal battle, without ever having sold a single electron. Construction was already complete when opponents challenged the plant's application for an operating license. Wall Street won't invest billions in new plants ($5.5 billion in Shoreham's case) without a clear path through the maze of judges and regulators. Shoreham didn't die completely in vain. The 1992 Energy Policy Act aims to forestall such debacles by authorizing the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to issue combined construction and operating licenses. It also allows the NRC to pre-certify specific reactor models and the energy companies to bank preapproved sites. Utility executives fret that no one has ever road-tested the new process, which still requires public hearings and shelves of supporting documents. An idle reactor site at Browns Ferry, Alabama, could be an early test case; the Tennessee Valley Authority is exploring options to refurbish it rather than start from scratch. Meanwhile, Congress looks ready to provide a boost to the nuclear energy industry. Pete Domenici (R-New Mexico), chair of the Senate's energy committee and the patron saint of nuclear power in Washington, has vowed to revive last year's energy bill, which died in the Senate. Earlier versions included a 1.85 cent per-kilowatt-hour production tax credit for the first half-dozen nuke plants to come online. That could add up to as much as $8 billion in federal outlays and should go a long way toward luring Wall Street back into the fray. As pork goes, the provision is easy to defend. Nuclear power's extraordinary startup costs and safety risks make it a special case for government intervention. And the amount is precisely the same bounty Washington spends annually in tax credits for wind, biomass, and other zero-emission kilowattage. Safer plants, more sensible regulation, and even a helping hand from Congress - all are on the way. What's still missing is a place to put radioactive waste. By law, US companies that generate nuclear power pay the Feds a tenth of a cent per kilowatt-hour to dispose of their spent fuel. The fund - currently $24 billion and counting - is supposed to finance a permanent waste repository, the ill-fated Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Two decades ago when the payments started, opening day was scheduled for January 31, 1998. But the Nevada facility remains embroiled in hearings, debates, and studies, and waste is piling up at 30-odd sites around the country. Nobody will build a nuke plant until Washington offers a better answer than "keep piling." At Yucca Mountain, perfection has been the enemy of adequacy. It's fun to discuss what the design life of an underground nuclear waste facility ought to be. One hundred years? Two hundred years? How about 100,000? A quarter of a million? Science fiction meets the US government budgeting process. In court! But throwing waste into a black hole at Yucca Mountain isn't such a great idea anyway. For one thing, in coming decades we might devise better disposal methods, such as corrosion-proof containers that can withstand millennia of heat and moisture. For another, used nuclear fuel can be recycled as a source for the production of more energy. Either way, it's clear that the whole waste disposal problem has been misconstrued. We don't need a million-year solution. A hundred years will do just fine - long enough to let the stuff cool down and allow us to decide what to do with it. The name for this approach is interim storage: Find a few patches of isolated real estate - we're not talking about taking it over for eternity - and pour nice big concrete pads; add floodlights, motion detectors, and razor wire; truck in nuclear waste in bombproof 20-foot-high concrete casks. Voil?: safe storage while you wait for either Yucca Mountain or plan B. Two dozen reactor sites around the country already have their own interim facilities; a private company has applied with the NRC to open one on the Goshute Indian reservation in Skull Valley, Utah. Establishing a half- dozen federally managed sites is closer to the right idea. Domenici says he'll introduce legislation this year for a national interim storage system. A handful of new US plants will be a fine start, but the real goal has to be dethroning King Coal and - until something better comes along - pushing nuclear power out front as the world's default energy source. Kicking carbon cold turkey won't be easy, but it can be done. Four crucial steps can help increase the momentum: Regulate carbon emissions, revamp the fuel cycle, rekindle innovation in nuclear technology, and, finally, replace gasoline with hydrogen. . Regulate carbon emissions. Nuclear plants have to account for every radioactive atom of waste. Meanwhile, coal-fired plants dump tons of deadly refuse into the atmosphere at zero cost. It's time for that free ride to end, but only the government can make it happen. The industry seems ready to pay up. Andy White, CEO of GE Energy's nuclear division, recently asked a roomful of US utility executives what they thought about the possibility of regulating carbon emissions. The idea didn't faze them. "The only question any of them had," he says, "was when and how much." A flat-out carbon tax is almost certainly a nonstarter in Washington. But an arrangement in which all energy producers are allowed a limited number of carbon pollution credits to use or sell could pass muster; after all, this kind of cap-and-trade scheme is already a fact of life for US utilities with a variety of other pollutants. Senators John McCain and Joe Lieberman have been pushing legislation such a system. This would send a clear message to utility executives that fossil energy's free pass is over. . Recycle nuclear fuel. Here's a fun fact: Spent nuclear fuel - the stuff intended for permanent disposal at Yucca Mountain - retains 95 percent of its energy content. Imagine what Toyota could do for fuel efficiency if 95 percent of the average car's gasoline passed through the engine and out the tailpipe. In France, Japan, and Britain, nuclear engineers do the sensible thing: recycle. Alone among the nuclear powers, the US doesn't, for reasons that have nothing to do with nuclear power. Recycling spent fuel - the technical word is reprocessing - is one way to make the key ingredient of a nuclear bomb, enriched uranium. In 1977, Jimmy Carter, the only nuclear engineer ever to occupy the White House, banned reprocessing in the US in favor of a so-called once-through fuel cycle. Four decades later, more than a dozen countries reprocess or enrich uranium, including North Korea and Iran. At this point, hanging onto spent fuel from US reactors does little good abroad and real mischief at home. The Bush administration has reopened the door with modest funding to resume research into the nuclear fuel cycle. The president himself has floated a proposal to provide all comers with a guaranteed supply of reactor fuel in exchange for a promise not to reprocess spent fuel themselves. Other proposals would create a global nuclear fuel company, possibly under the auspices of the International Atomic Energy Agency. This company would collect, reprocess, and distribute fuel to every nation in the world, thus keeping potential bomb fixings out of circulation. In the short term, reprocessing would maximize resources and minimize the problem of how to dispose of radioactive waste. In fact, it would eliminate most of the waste from nuclear power production. Over decades, it could also ease pressure on uranium supplies. The world's existing reserves are generally reckoned sufficient to withstand 50 years of rapid nuclear expansion without a significant price increase. In a pinch, there's always the ocean, whose 4.5 billion tons of dissolved uranium can be extracted today at 5 to 10 times the cost of conventional mining. Uranium is so cheap today that reprocessing is more about reducing waste than stretching the fuel supply. But advanced breeder reactors, which create more fuel as they generate power, could well be the economically competitive choice - and renewable as well. . Rekindle innovation. Although nuclear technology has come a long way since Three Mile Island, the field is hardly a hotbed of innovation. Government-funded research - such as the DOE's Next Generation Nuclear Plant program - is aimed at designing advanced reactors, including high temperature, gas-cooled plants of the kind being built in China and South Africa and fast-breeder reactors that will use uranium 60 times more efficiently than today's reactors. Still, the nuclear industry suffers from its legacy of having been born under a mushroom cloud and raised by your local electric company. A tight leash on nuclear R&D may be good, even necessary. But there's nothing like a little competition to spur creativity. That's reason enough to want to see US companies squarely back on the nuclear power field - research is great, but more and smarter buyers ultimately drive quality up and prices down. In fact, the possibility of a nuclear gold rush - not just a modest rebirth - depends on economics as much as technology. The generation IV pebble-bed reactors being developed in China and South Africa get attention for their meltdown-proof designs. (See "Let a Thousand Reactors Bloom," issue 12.09.) But it's their low capital cost and potential for fast, modular construction that could blow the game open, as surely as the PC did for computing. As long as investments come in $2 billion increments, purchase orders will be few and far between. At $300 million a pop for safe, clean energy, watch the floodgates open around the world. . Replace gasoline with hydrogen. If a single change could truly ignite nuclear power, it's the grab bag of technologies and wishful schemes traveling under the rubric of the hydrogen economy. Leaving behind petroleum is as important to the planet's future as eliminating coal. The hitch is that it takes energy to extract hydrogen from substances like methane and water. Where will it come from? Today, the most common energy source for producing hydrogen is natural gas, followed by oil. It's conceivable that renewables could do it in limited quantities. By the luck of physics, though, two things nuclear reactors do best - generate both electricity and very high temperatures - are exactly what it takes to produce hydrogen most efficiently. Last November, the DOE's Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory showed how a single next-gen nuke could produce the hydrogen equivalent of 400,000 gallons of gasoline every day. Nuclear energy's potential for freeing us not only from coal but also oil holds the promise of a bright green future for the US and the world at large. The more seriously you take the idea of global warming, the more seriously you have to take nuclear power. Clean coal, solar-powered roof tiles, wind farms in North Dakota - they're all pie in the emissions-free sky. Sure, give them a shot. But zero-carbon reactors are here and now. We know we can build them. Their price tag is no mystery. They fit into the existing electric grid without a hitch. Flannel-shirted environmentalists who fight these realities run the risk of ending up with as much soot on their hands as the slickest coal-mining CEO. America's voracious energy appetite doesn't have to be a bug - it can be a feature. Shanghai, Seoul, and S?o Paolo are more likely to look to Los Angeles or Houston as a model than to some solar-powered idyll. Energy technology is no different than any other; innovation can change all the rules. But if the best we can offer the developing world is bromides about energy independence, we'll deserve the carbon-choked nightmare of a planet we get. Nuclear energy is the big bang still reverberating. It's the power to light a city in a lump the size of a soda can. Peter Huber and Mark Mills have written an iconoclastic new book on energy, The Bottomless Well. They see nuclear power as merely the latest in a series of technologies that will gradually eliminate our need to carve up huge swaths of the planet. "Energy isn't the problem. Energy is the solution," they write. "Energy begets more energy. The more of it we capture and put to use, the more readily we will capture still more." The best way to avoid running out of fossil fuels is to switch to something better. The Stone Age famously did not end for lack of stones, and neither should we wait for the last chunk of anthracite to flicker out before we kiss hydrocarbons good-bye. Especially not when something cleaner, safer, more efficient, and more abundant is ready to roll. It's time to get real. The environmental movement, once staunchly antinuclear, is facing resistance from within. by Amanda Griscom Little From Greenpeace to the Green Party, some of the most prominent environmental groups today made their reputations in the 1970s as opponents of nuclear power. So it was no wonder that greens were vexed last summer when prime minister Tony Blair proposed a new generation of nuclear power plants for Britain to confront the problem of climate change. But what galled them even more was the response to Blair from Hugh Montefiore, a former Anglican bishop and longtime trustee of Friends of the Earth. Writing in the British journal The Tablet in October, Montefiore committed what colleagues viewed as the ultimate betrayal: "I have now come to the conclusion that the solution [to global warming] is to make more use of nuclear energy." When Montefiore told fellow trustees that he planned to speak out, they made him resign his post. Montefiore isn't the only dyed-in-the-wool green who has been exiled for advocating nuclear power. Greenpeace cofounder Patrick Moore left the organization after embracing atomic energy. British biologist James Lovelock, whose Gaia theory was an environmental watchword before he turned pro-nuke, is now persona non grata within the movement. "There are members of my former organization who would agree with me but have not gone public about the matter," Montefiore laments. "If only we had a few more people who would stick their necks out, it would help." Maybe not. Consider the green reaction to the National Commission on Energy Policy, whose board of directors includes a Harvard professor emeritus of environmental policy and a senior attorney at the Natural Resources Defense Council. In December, the commission released a 150-page report that proposed reinvigorating the nuclear industry with billions in subsidies. The US must seek "a substantial expansion" of atomic power to counter climate change, the report said. Environmental groups bristled. The NRDC rejected the report's nuclear section as "old-style thinking." Members of Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, and the Union of Concerned Scientists heaved their own brickbats. So what would it take for environmentalists to accept nukes? Although green opinions vary, sources in the movement say much of the resistance would soften if the industry dealt with four persistent issues. The top priority for many environmentalists is to counter proliferation of nuclear weapons. To stem the creation of weapons-grade materials, they want to prohibit plants from recycling fuel and install robust security at reactor fuel production facilities. Second, to diminish the risk of Chernobyl-style accidents, they'd like to see aging plants updated, safety protocols strengthened, and oversight tightened. Third, greens want a secure place to put waste. Yucca Mountain in Nevada, they say, needs to be proven capable of holding radioactive refuse for the hundreds of thousands of years it will take to decay; alternatively, a national system of short-term interim storage might be acceptable. Fourth, environmentalists insist that uranium mines, which are notorious polluters, employ cleaner extraction methods and submit to tougher environmental regulations. "If our concerns were thoroughly addressed, there could be a greater role for commercial nuclear power that we would support," says Geoffrey Fettus, senior project attorney at the NRDC. "But the devil is in the details, and the industry hasn't acknowledged that the problems even exist." While none of the leading environmental groups are going to lead the nuclear charge, insiders say the Union of Concerned Scientists has a growing pro-nuke faction. But don't look for a trend. "I want to drive a stake through the heart of the nuclear industry," says Greenpeace senior nuclear policy analyst Jim Ricchio. "I don't expect that to change." Amanda Griscom Little (amanda at grist.org) writes about the environment for Salon. Peter Schwartz (peter_schwartz at gbn.com) is chair of Global Business Network, a scenario-planning firm. Contributing editor Spencer Reiss (spencer at upperroad.net) wrote about pebble-bed nuclear reactors in issue 13.01. Additional research by Chris Coldewey. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 12:03:56 2005 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:03:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pro nuclear article in wired In-Reply-To: <26869c1f7ee36d4f88aa3ae6e69c7cce@mac.com> Message-ID: It's pretty interesting, the Nuke PR machine and/or the Bush PR machine must be really kicking it in over nuke. In the past month I saw pro-nuke articles in: Wired, Forbes, Fortune, Business2.0 and a couple other mags. Could be coincidence, but seems unlikely. BAL >From: Samantha Atkins >To: ExI chat list >Subject: [extropy-chat] pro nuclear article in wired >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:40:15 -0800 > >Just when i was ready to chuck the pulp as one big commercial I came >across this exceptionally refreshing piece. > >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/nuclear.html? >pg=1&topic=nuclear&topic_set= > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From gregburch at gregburch.net Wed Feb 9 13:19:26 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:19:26 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk. Now here you are voicing the same hysterical nonsense. Maybe we were all just fooling ourselves that we lived on the same planet before 911. SInce then, it seems that it's become less and less possible to communicate across ideological divides. I spend as much time as I can afford reading material written by people with whom I disagree. But I honestly don't think many of the politics posters on this list do. What I see from the America-bashers and Bush-haters posting here is the equal of the absolute most shrill Democratic Underground posts (a far-left BBS, for folks not steeped in U.S. politics) and the Guardian's and Le Monde's op-ed pages. Maybe it's because I work professionally in what is functionally a job of practical politics and have been an academic student of politcal philosophy and history all my life; but I'm getting to the point that I can hardly bring myself to even scan these posts, they are so steeped in cliches and not-even-half-truths. The caricature of America as a fascist military state that is depicted in these posts would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Of course those who have been making these posts will say, "Why do you think the world sees America this way?" Well, I've tried to explain this as civilly as I can. In my view, the cultural machinery of much of the West has been hijacked over the last 40 years by people who subscribe to what I have come to see as a deeply flawed ideology. It has become so pervasive in the cultural spheres of much of the developed world outside the U.S. (and San Francisco, Seattle and a few other U.S. urban regions count in that sphere) that people who don't make a concerted effort to work through to expose themselves to other points of view don't realize that every word they read, every image they see is a product of this world-view. One of the foundational elements of this world-view is the demonization of the United States, its culture, politics and foreign policies. Just as only a tiny handful of the thousands of people whose testimony I've taken in the last 17 years as a lawyer actually, consciusly knew they were lying when it could be proved they were stating a falsehood under oath, almost no-one is aware of the foundational ideologial and cultural premises of the world-view upon which their opinions about politics and culture are based -- these things are like water to a fish, so ubiquitous that it goes unnoticed and unquestioned. It takes a lot of effort to make one's self aware of such things and then to engage in a process of systematic and on-going testing to develop and maintain a consistent, rational political and cultural philosophy. Most people, whose daily lives do not revolve around such things don't have the time or inclination to do it. I'm not saying anyone else should somehow accept my opinions just because I believe that's the job I've set for myself -- after all, there are people who disagree with me who have invested just as much effort and come to different conclusions. But before tossing off the opinion that Europe should ally itself with Russia to develop a nuclear shield against U.S. agression, you might just stop and ask yourself what assumptions about the the U.S. such an opinion is necessarily based on. ... oh well, maybe I shouldn't respond to a post before I've finished my first cup of coffee ... GB > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:52 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked > > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Are you sure this is what we voted for? Are you vetting the last > > Yes. Nobody contested the vote. It look as if a small majority (i.e. trees > and shrubs voting vor Bush) voted for this administration. No > secession, no > armed uprise, no emigration. Yep, you voted for them. > > > election? Do any people really deserve destruction at the hands of > > their supposed servants? Do those within and without the US who did > > Is that a rhetorical question? If no, I see exactly zero unrest, > and people > marching on the streets. Yes, you have the government you deserve. > > > not vote for this also deserve whatever hell it turns out to be? > > I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that the only > countries that > are safe are those with credible deterrence potential. > > Unfortunately, the EU is too slow to realize that, and start > investing in a > nuclear umbrella (teaming up with Russia would seem like a good idea), as > well as the ability to protect its assets in orbit and/or be able to > terminate enemy assets. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > From sentience at pobox.com Wed Feb 9 13:58:37 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:58:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> References: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> Message-ID: <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> Reason . wrote: > > Eliezer Yudkowsky > >> I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman >> life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >> intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. >> >> Some have replied: "Oh, you can't present me with that dilemma, there >> *must* be an option C". I think they don't realize how cruel the >> real universe can be. Tell it to humanity's dead. The question is >> fair. > > You missed my point: I was saying that in the real world there are > always options C->infinity ... because you can always move the > goalposts. By constraining yourself to visualizing dilemmas based on a > given set of constraints, you deny your (transhumanist) ability to > engineer a better set of constraints to live within. "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, while the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." So Newton said, and he was right; he knew how little he knew. And then he died, and worms ate his brain, and he never learned the answers to his questions. Tell me how he could have moved the goalposts. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 9 14:11:07 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:11:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <003001c50e86$bc5327e0$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z> References: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 10:07 AM 09/02/05 +0100, Hubert wrote:\ snip >There has been total war on both sides and it might have been justified for >allied bomber pilots in February to erase the city of Dresden. If any author >in the 1970s would have used the used the word "cremate" to describe the >death of Dresden population he would have been called "revisionist" or even >worse names. It had been the *Jews* who were cremated in Treblinka and >Auschwitz. The half a million burnt German victims of allied bombings were >accepted as war casualties, and discussing the shadow sides of the good >guys, with allied plans to kill at least 3 million civilians with the >intention to provoke a riot against Hitler, was un-pc in times of Cold War, >when West Germany was the most important ally of the USA against communism. > >As I said before, it took more than half a century for the German nation to >be able to hesitantly talk about the shadow sides of the victors who, in the >name of freedom and democracy, erased 162 cities. Another delicate and >awkward factor in this discussion is the fact that this topic had always >been enunciated by extreme right wing parties to qualify (relativize) the >Nazi crimes. So, today if you want to have an open discussion about this >topic you first have to make disclaimer statements, not to be a neo nazi. I think people miss the ecological point of war established when the fighting units were tribes. It is to reduce a population seen as too large. So the unstated, even *denied* object in a war is to kill as many as possible. *Something* has to keep population in balance with the productivity of the ecosystem. Since human have no predators, when the future looks bleak we have to be our own predators. Grim. Keith Henson From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 14:15:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:15:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:19:26AM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk. Yes. Nobody listened. > Now here you are voicing the same hysterical nonsense. Really? I'm just demonstrating a list in full politics mode. Balanced, unemotional constructive. > Maybe we were all just fooling ourselves that we lived on the same planet before 911. SInce then, it seems that it's become less and less possible to communicate across ideological divides. > -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 15:21:22 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:21:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050209152122.70345.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Samantha Atkins" > > > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous lies of this > > administration everything media has done or is alleged to have done > is > > very small potatoes. > > Yes, yes, yes. A hundred times yes. > > What's going on in this country? - a plague of AADD? (for how quickly > "we" seem to forget). > > The lies of this administration have been unprecedented in their > audacity, smugness, shiftiness, and self-righteousness. Where's the > accountability? > Does anyone care about integrity anymore? (and ...What's happening > to the hitherto-implicit respect for science?) > > And (yes, another yes) I've asked this question before: Where's the > outrage? That's very funny. Never in my life would I hear Olga Bourlin repeating the words of Bill Bennett. Olga, dear, outrage went out of fashion under Clinton, when y'all lectured us that it wasn't important that the President is a liar, a cheater, who uses US foreign policy to benefit his personal life. Now we have a 'compassionate conservative' President, who "feels the pain" of the oppressed peoples around the world, who thinks that we should follow the advice of JFK, who said, "Let every nation know. . .whether it wishes us well or ill. . . that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge. . .and more." Are you all going to deny him the benefit of doubt you gave Clinton (and done so woozily by you ladies)? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 14:53:06 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:53:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20050209145305.GH1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:11:07AM -0500, Keith Henson wrote: > *Something* has to keep population in balance with the productivity of the > ecosystem. Since human have no predators, when the future looks bleak we > have to be our own predators. Autopredation is also what made us human (those not smart enough winding up in the digestive tract). Grim indeed, but it's also our past. As long as we have an operating system for socities which contains our neolithic firmware, we're safe. Problems beging when it breaks down, and we fall back to feral mode. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 9 15:59:32 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:59:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Arming the Vietnamese communists [new subj] Message-ID: <420A3364.E56787D8@mindspring.com> Anyone have sources citing the origin of weapons used by the Viet Minh during the Dien Bien Phu period? Terry --- "Terry W. Colvin" fnarded: > Your comments ignore two indisputable facts: First, the Viet > Cong/Viet Minh were a large popular resistance faction that was in > action a long time before the CHINESE (not the Soviets as you claim) > began to support them. They effectively kicked the French out on > their own using the weapons that had been provided them to fight the > Japanese. While this is a popular lie promulgated among the left, the truth is markedly different. Anyone who knows anything about Dien Bien Phu knows that the artillery and anti-aircraft weaponry, both of immense and crucial importance in the NVA victory over the French there, were NOT of western manufacture, they were specifically Soviet made weapons, as were most infantry weapons used even then. There was a very good documentary this past weekend on the military channel covering the CIA front, Civil Air Transport (predecessor to Air America) and its involvement in supplying French forces at Dien Bien Phu. They had extensive interviews with Vietnamese soldiers and officers and NVA film archive footage. Anyone who begins a paragraph with the words "This is a popular lie promulgated by..." anyone needs to come up with better documentation than a right-wing organ like the military channel. The last program I saw on that crackpot channel had the idiot whacko Boykin showing an actual photograph of a demon from hell flying over Mogadishu. Haven't been back since. Since you purport to know so much about it, kindly tell us specifically what these "specifically Soviet made weapons" were. Since of course I can provide upon request photographic documentation that the artillery was primarily 105mm, of essentially the same type used by US Airborne troops through the 1970s, you're going to have an uphill battle establishing their Soviet manufacture. Same is true of the M-1 Carbines you see the Viet Minh carrying in the famous photos. Naturally, since Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity tell you you have to believe the Soviets were behind everything that went wrong with your rightwing universe, it won't change your mind, but the rest of the list will find it interesting to watch you scrounge for specifics. Ed -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From gregburch at gregburch.net Wed Feb 9 16:04:44 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:04:44 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: > From: Eugen Leitl > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:19:26AM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > > Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk. > > Yes. Nobody listened. > > > Now here you are voicing the same hysterical nonsense. > > Really? I'm just demonstrating a list in full politics mode. > > Balanced, unemotional constructive. Sorry -- I missed the sarcasm. My bad. You're my hero. GB From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 9 17:24:00 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:24:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT/TLC-Mission) Re: Arming the Vietnamese communists [new subj] Message-ID: <420A4730.72F6BCBA@mindspring.com> Terry, Just a quick note; almost all of the Viet Minh artillery was US 105's from China that were war booty from the defeat of the Chinese Nationalists and from Korea; The AA was, I believe, Soviet, supplied via China; the individual weapons were a mixture of Japanese, captured American, Soviet and Chinese. The vehicles they had (not many, admittedly) were Soviet. Check out Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy and Battle of Dien Bien Phu, also Battle of Dien Bien Phu by Jules Roy. These aren't complete as far as this specific topic goes but they give a good picture of the geopolitical situation present at the time. To use that famous military non- word, "irregardless" of the manufacturer of the weapon, the stuff DID come from/through China, mostly overland. "We" did supply some weapons to the fledgling Viet Minh towards the end of WW2 but to infer that the French were defeated by a bunch of barefooted natives armed only with said weapons is B.S. More later as I dig it up. Tom "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: Anyone have sources citing the origin of weapons used by the Viet Minh during the Dien Bien Phu period? Terry --- "Terry W. Colvin" fnarded: > Your comments ignore two indisputable facts: First, the Viet > Cong/Viet Minh were a large popular resistance faction that was in > action a long time before the CHINESE (not the Soviets as you claim) > began to support them. They effectively kicked the French out on > their own using the weapons that had been provided them to fight the > Japanese. While this is a popular lie promulgated among the left, the truth is markedly different. Anyone who knows anything about Dien Bien Phu knows that the artillery and anti-aircraft weaponry, both of immense and crucial importance in the NVA victory over the French there, were NOT of western manufacture, they were specifically Soviet made weapons, as were most infantry weapons used even then. There was a very good documentary this past weekend on the military channel covering the CIA front, Civil Air Transport (predecessor to Air America) and its involvement in supplying French forces at Dien Bien Phu. They had extensive interviews with Vietnamese soldiers and officers and NVA film archive footage. Anyone who begins a paragraph with the words "This is a popular lie promulgated by..." anyone needs to come up with better documentation than a right-wing organ like the military channel. The last program I saw on that crackpot channel had the idiot whacko Boykin showing an actual photograph of a demon from hell flying over Mogadishu. Haven't been back since. Since you purport to know so much about it, kindly tell us specifically what these "specifically Soviet made weapons" were. Since of course I can provide upon request photographic documentation that the artillery was primarily 105mm, of essentially the same type used by US Airborne troops through the 1970s, you're going to have an uphill battle establishing their Soviet manufacture. Same is true of the M-1 Carbines you see the Viet Minh carrying in the famous photos. Naturally, since Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity tell you you have to believe the Soviets were behind everything that went wrong with your rightwing universe, it won't change your mind, but the rest of the list will find it interesting to watch you scrounge for specifics. Ed -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 19:02:44 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:02:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> <20050209082959.GL1404@leitl.org> <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <170dd6892044aacae49f7949b4f12e58@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 2:51 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> Are you sure this is what we voted for? Are you vetting the last > > Yes. Nobody contested the vote. It look as if a small majority (i.e. > trees > and shrubs voting vor Bush) voted for this administration. No > secession, no > armed uprise, no emigration. Yep, you voted for them. That is not a remotely reasonable attitude. Besides the ones I voted for and support did contest the election. There is more than a little blaming the victims here. Secession or armed uprising at this time would simply result in a lot of dead or imprisoned people more o your liking and an even more draconian state. I don't know what you are up to with this line but frankly it sucks big time. > >> election? Do any people really deserve destruction at the hands of >> their supposed servants? Do those within and without the US who did > > Is that a rhetorical question? If no, I see exactly zero unrest, and > people > marching on the streets. Yes, you have the government you deserve. I am done with this conversation until you start speaking with some balance again. > >> not vote for this also deserve whatever hell it turns out to be? > > I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that the only > countries that > are safe are those with credible deterrence potential. > > Unfortunately, the EU is too slow to realize that, and start investing > in a > nuclear umbrella (teaming up with Russia would seem like a good idea), > as > well as the ability to protect its assets in orbit and/or be able to > terminate enemy assets. > > So by your logic the EU deserves what it gets unless they and other countries gang up and attack the US? From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 19:02:49 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050209190249.73589.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha > Atkins wrote: > I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that > the only countries that > are safe are those with credible deterrence > potential. No, those with democratic-enough governments are also quite safe. The EU definitely qualifies, in contrast to Iraq under Saddam or to North Korea. > Unfortunately, the EU is too slow to realize that, > and start investing in a > nuclear umbrella (teaming up with Russia would seem > like a good idea), as > well as the ability to protect its assets in orbit > and/or be able to > terminate enemy assets. France is a declared nuclear power, as (I think) is the UK. They could plop nuclear silos all over Europe without violating international agreements, so long as said silos were under control of the EU rather than member countries (which might require setting up a formal EU-wide military first; I don't think one already exists). And they definitely have the ability to produce ICBMs - possibly more ability than either Russia or the US at this point, given the state of their respective space (specifically, expendible long-range rocket) industries. Exact nuclear capabilities are often state secrets, but it's probably safe to assume that the EU has more than enough nuclear deterrent already. (Not that it takes much. The mere capability to destroy several major cities, which could be done with less than 10 missiles, should give pause to any would-be invader who wants to have a country afterwards.) From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 19:04:52 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:04:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pro nuclear article in wired In-Reply-To: <20050209111716.GV1404@leitl.org> References: <26869c1f7ee36d4f88aa3ae6e69c7cce@mac.com> <20050209111716.GV1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <76da3689c25deb6fa3fd1bef62c21fca@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:17 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:40:15AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: >> Just when i was ready to chuck the pulp as one big commercial I came >> across this exceptionally refreshing piece. > > You call this refreshing? It's chock-full of old cliches about > renewable > power and nuke both. Compared to resounding silence in popular press, yeah. > - s From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 19:06:31 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050209190631.40715.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Hmm. what part of that was i supposed to have said? The part that I quoted: > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous lies > of this > administration everything media has done or is alleged > to have done is > very small potatoes. Granted, the administration has done worse than the media, but the media's own mistakes have been amplified. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Feb 9 19:11:21 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:11:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> References: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050209130435.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >>>I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman >>>life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >>> intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. [Paraphrase: Eliezer currently stands halfway between average human and transhuman and would prefer it that way even at a cost of abbreviated life span] >>You missed my point: I was saying that in the real world there are >>always options C->infinity ... because you can always move the >>goalposts. By constraining yourself to visualizing dilemmas based on a >>given set of constraints, you deny your (transhumanist) ability to >>engineer a better set of constraints to live within. [Paraphrase: Reason thinks part of the definition of being transhuman is the capacity to alter human-scale constraints such as life span] [Eliezer again:] >"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to >have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, while the great ocean >of truth lay all undiscovered before me." So Newton said, and he was >right; he knew how little he knew. And then he died, and worms ate his >brain, and he never learned the answers to his questions. > >Tell me how he could have moved the goalposts. By becoming (mysteriously, somehow) an accelerated transhuman with the ability to move the goalposts--the initial posit in this rather daffy thread. Back in the real world: by choosing not to work with mercury which ate his brain before the worms did. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 19:28:21 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:28:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5128dc0651c8d32168a46d8356ee27d5@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 5:19 AM, Greg Burch wrote: > Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk. Now here you are voicing > the same hysterical nonsense. Maybe we were all just fooling > ourselves that we lived on the same planet before 911. SInce then, it > seems that it's become less and less possible to communicate across > ideological divides. Great. Throw in the towel. That's always a wonderful strategy. The entire species seems to have to work really hard to act remotely rational and civil and this crosses all so-called "ideological divides". > > I spend as much time as I can afford reading material written by > people with whom I disagree. But I honestly don't think many of the > politics posters on this list do. What I see from the America-bashers > and Bush-haters posting here is the equal of the absolute most shrill > Democratic Underground posts (a far-left BBS, for folks not steeped in > U.S. politics) and the Guardian's and Le Monde's op-ed pages. Bush deeply deserves to be hated. I am very sorry if you have used your fine mind to persuade yourself otherwise. i am even more sorry if you choose to disengage and disparage those who disagree instead of continuing to attempt to find what truth and mutual understanding we can together. > > Maybe it's because I work professionally in what is functionally a job > of practical politics and have been an academic student of politcal > philosophy and history all my life; but I'm getting to the point that > I can hardly bring myself to even scan these posts, they are so > steeped in cliches and not-even-half-truths. The caricature of > America as a fascist military state that is depicted in these posts > would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Of course those who have been > making these posts will say, "Why do you think the world sees America > this way?" Well, I've tried to explain this as civilly as I can. In > my view, the cultural machinery of much of the West has been hijacked > over the last 40 years by people who subscribe to what I have come to > see as a deeply flawed ideology. It has become so pervasive in the > cultural spheres of much of the developed world outside the U.S. (and > San Francisco, Seattle and a few other U.S. urban regions count in > that sphere) that people who! > don't make a concerted effort to work through to expose themselves to > other points of view don't realize that every word they read, every > image they see is a product of this world-view. One of the > foundational elements of this world-view is the demonization of the > United States, its culture, politics and foreign policies. This is hardly scholarly or refutable once you are thoroughly infected thereby. If the country is on a very dangerous course you will tend to disown those who attempt to point it out as being of that other camp and thus hopeless. > > Just as only a tiny handful of the thousands of people whose testimony > I've taken in the last 17 years as a lawyer actually, consciusly knew > they were lying when it could be proved they were stating a falsehood > under oath, almost no-one is aware of the foundational ideologial and > cultural premises of the world-view upon which their opinions about > politics and culture are based -- these things are like water to a > fish, so ubiquitous that it goes unnoticed and unquestioned. Hey, I have consciously examined and many times shifted my views on various things many times across your supposed world-view boundaries. Please give your proof of the existence of these deeply determinative mindsets or stop pigeon-holing those who disagree with you on one or more questions. > It takes a lot of effort to make one's self aware of such things and > then to engage in a process of systematic and on-going testing to > develop and maintain a consistent, rational political and cultural > philosophy. Most people, whose daily lives do not revolve around such > things don't have the time or inclination to do it. I'm not saying > anyone else should somehow accept my opinions just because I believe > that's the job I've set for myself -- after all, there are people who > disagree with me who have inves! > ted just as much effort and come to different conclusions. But before > tossing off the opinion that Europe should ally itself with Russia to > develop a nuclear shield against U.S. agression, you might just stop > and ask yourself what assumptions about the the U.S. such an opinion > is necessarily based on. > Better. I of course found such remarks equally outrageous even though i believe the entire world is in danger by what seems to be brewing in our government. I need coffee too. :-) > - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 19:32:58 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:32:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2005, at 6:15 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:19:26AM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > >> Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk. > > Yes. Nobody listened. > >> Now here you are voicing the same hysterical nonsense. > > Really? I'm just demonstrating a list in full politics mode. You are spewing poison to win a point concerning politics being supposedly by its nature poisonous to the list? That is dishonest and very manipulative. Cease and desist at once! From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 20:44:32 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:44:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20050209190631.40715.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050209204432.35480.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Hmm. what part of that was i supposed to have said? > > The part that I quoted: > > > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous > > lies of this administration everything media has done or is > > alleged to have done is very small potatoes. > > Granted, the administration has done worse than the > media, but the media's own mistakes have been > amplified. By who? The media? Are you saying that the media is exaggerating its own corruption and incompetence? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 9 20:49:29 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:49:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209190249.73589.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209190249.73589.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51a1034942c4f074af9e5fd2ec78acbb@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha >> Atkins wrote: >> I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that >> the only countries that >> are safe are those with credible deterrence >> potential. > In case it is unclear, I did not write the above. Eugen did. From sentience at pobox.com Wed Feb 9 21:08:28 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:08:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050209130435.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050209130435.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <420A7BCC.6030501@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > >>>> I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman >>>> life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >>>> intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. > > [Paraphrase: Eliezer currently stands halfway between average human and > transhuman and would prefer it that way even at a cost of abbreviated > life span] Nnnoo... I'm saying that I wasn't sure which option I would take, until I realized how much I value the intelligence I already have. This being the case, if I was smarter, I would probably value that too much to give it up. So I should choose the short but smart life. I don't know how you get the "halfway" figure. >>> You missed my point: I was saying that in the real world there are >>> always options C->infinity ... because you can always move the >>> goalposts. By constraining yourself to visualizing dilemmas based on a >>> given set of constraints, you deny your (transhumanist) ability to >>> engineer a better set of constraints to live within. > > [Paraphrase: Reason thinks part of the definition of being transhuman is > the capacity to alter human-scale constraints such as life span] > > [Eliezer again:] > >> "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to >> have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, while the great >> ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." So Newton said, and >> he was right; he knew how little he knew. And then he died, and worms >> ate his brain, and he never learned the answers to his questions. >> >> Tell me how he could have moved the goalposts. > > By becoming (mysteriously, somehow) an accelerated transhuman with the > ability to move the goalposts--the initial posit in this rather daffy > thread. I don't think so. There could always be a bigger superintelligence imposing limits on you. > Back in the real world: by choosing not to work with mercury which ate > his brain before the worms did. He would still have died. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 21:44:06 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20050209204432.35480.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050209214406.59296.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Hmm. what part of that was i supposed to have > said? > > > > The part that I quoted: > > > > > This is getting old. Compared to the outrageous > > > lies of this administration everything media has > done or is > > > alleged to have done is very small potatoes. > > > > Granted, the administration has done worse than > the > > media, but the media's own mistakes have been > > amplified. > > By who? The media? Are you saying that the media is > exaggerating its > own corruption and incompetence? The media's hardly a monolithic institution. Some parts of it do indeed thrive on harping on the decay of other parts of it. But big media's not all of it. There are other organizations, instutitions, and even individuals who've hyped it up...although, these days, anyone who talks to anyone can arguably be called "media" (thus my reference to "big" media). From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 9 22:07:01 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:07:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 11:32:58AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > You are spewing poison to win a point concerning politics being > supposedly by its nature poisonous to the list? That is dishonest and > very manipulative. Cease and desist at once! No, I'm telling my opinion and simultaneously telling my meta-opinion. Outsource politics to extropy-politics@ Orelse suffer the consequences. This way lies madness. Don't destroy a yet another list. (In a parallel, irregular universe, right now, there's a yet another great list ceasing to exist). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Feb 9 22:41:43 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:41:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <420A7BCC.6030501@pobox.com> References: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050209130435.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <420A7BCC.6030501@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050209163652.01cdcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:08 PM 2/9/2005 -0800, Eliezer was baffled: >>>>>I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman >>>>>life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >>>>> intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. >>[Paraphrase: Eliezer currently stands halfway between average human and >>transhuman and would prefer it that way even at a cost of abbreviated >>life span] > >I don't know how you get the "halfway" figure. 40 at average cf. 20@"myself": 2/1 20@"myself" cf. 10 at transhuman: 2/1 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Feb 9 23:53:06 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:53:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: Eugen, you are right. Correct. Absolutely. This infighting is making me delete posts at once if I see they're from folks who argue politics. I didn't come to this list to read politics, there are many lists for that. This list is for extropy, transhumnaism, the future, AI, extending life, things of that sort. Please, folks, let's stay with the original program and outsource the rest. Remember what happened with the "Gun posts" of yore? We almost blew ourselves to pieces. Regards, MB On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 11:32:58AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > You are spewing poison to win a point concerning politics being > > supposedly by its nature poisonous to the list? That is dishonest and > > very manipulative. Cease and desist at once! > > No, I'm telling my opinion and simultaneously telling my meta-opinion. > > Outsource politics to extropy-politics@ > > Orelse suffer the consequences. This way lies madness. Don't destroy a yet another list. > > (In a parallel, irregular universe, right now, there's a yet another great list > ceasing to exist). > > From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Feb 9 23:53:38 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:53:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT/TLC-Mission) Re: Arming the Vietnamese communists [new subj] Message-ID: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> Terry, According to the Vietnamese in a translation by Merle L. Pribbenow of several volumes from the Military History Institute of Vietnam, Victory in Vietnam - The Official History of the People?s Army of Vietnam, 1954-1975 (Part I - "Building The People?s Army", pages 9-10), the majority of the weaponry held by the Vietnamese army in mid-1954 was captured from the enemy. The following is an excerpt from the translation: "The majority of our weaponry and equipment were infantry weapons, which were not uniform in quantity or type and were of poor quality. Many of these weapons were unserviceable, and they were technically obsolete when compared to equipment used by other armies around the world. NOTE: At the time our army possessed: 105,526 rifles (57 percent of which were serviceable) of four different types: Remington rifles and carbines produced during the Second World War, French MAS rifles produced during the period 1949-1950, and 7.9mm rifles produced by the Chinese Nationalists. In addition we had a number of Russian Modin rifles, Japanese Arinaka rifles, and French "Mut-co-tong" [sic} rifles produced during the First World War. 44,836 submachine guns (95 percent of which were serviceable) of five types: Thompson, Sten, "Tuyn" [sic], and MAS produced by the United States, England, and France and K-50 submachine guns produced in China based on a Russian design. Light machine guns totaled 6,509 weapons (72 percent of which were serviceable) of the following types: Bren, Bren-no [sic], Hotchkiss, etc . Heavy machine guns totaled 1,175 weapons (67 percent of which were serviceable) including Maxim machine guns produced at the time of the Russian Czars. Ammunition for the types of weapons we had captured from the enemy totaled only 200 rounds per weapon for rifles, 1,500 rounds per weapon for light machine guns, and 4,500 rounds per weapon form heavy machine guns. Artillery directly subordinate to the High Command consisted of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, three battalions of 75mm mountain guns, and seven batteries of 82mm and 120mm mortars. Transportation trucks totaled over 1,000. Signal equipment included telephones, 2-watt voice radios, and 15-watt radios. Engineering equipment was primarily hoes and shovels. Almost 70 percent of our weapons and equipment had been captured from the enemy, 10 percent had been produced by our forces domestically, and 20 percent had been provided as aid by friendly countries between 1950 and mid-1954." While the above does not specifically address weaponry used prior to and during the battle of Dien Bien Phu, it is a pretty safe bet that much of the weaponry used by the "Viet Minh" at Dien Bien Phu are included in the above inventory (i.e., those weapons not destroyed during the battle). The period before, during and just after Dien Bien Phu is covered in separate volumes of The History of The People?s Army of Vietnam. I do not have copies of the earlier volumes in English or Vietnamese but, if you are interested, I may be able to contact Merle to inquire if there is mention of the specific weaponry used during siege and battle of Dien Bien Phu. Once able to get through the obvious Communist rhetoric, it seems fairly clear to me that the Vietnamese have told their Army?s history in fairly factual and objective manner. It is interesting to peruse: http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/index.htm which tells the story from the French or Western perspective. It would certainly seem that "we" should question or research further some of the "facts" or accounts in some of the histories authored in the West. There is a great deal of truth in Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your High School History Textbook Got Wrong by James Loewen. I hope this has been helpful. Take care, be saf, be happy and enjoy. In Brotherhood, Tom Penn. "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: Anyone have sources citing the origin of weapons used by the Viet Minh during the Dien Bien Phu period? Terry This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Feb 10 00:13:48 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:13:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <20050209145305.GH1404@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209185850.033b0030@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:53 PM 09/02/05 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:11:07AM -0500, Keith Henson wrote: >> *Something* has to keep population in balance with the productivity of the >> ecosystem. Since human have no predators, when the future looks bleak we >> have to be our own predators. >Autopredation is also what made us human (those not smart enough winding up >in the digestive tract). >Grim indeed, but it's also our past. As long as we have an operating system >for societies which contains our neolithic firmware, we're safe. Problems >being when it breaks down, and we fall back to feral mode. You are going to have to tell me what you mean by such terms as "firmware" and "neolithic." The standard measure of neolithic starts about 8000 BC. That's not nearly enough time to have induced changes in the genetic based psychological traits if that's what you call "firmware." Everything since farming is cultural, software. Works *great* as long as the human population is not under stress, particularly as long as it does not see harsh times a-coming. Once lots of people do see a bleak future, they spread memes (or some meme gets loose) that dehumanized some a of strangers and off the warriors go to kill that group. (Or round them up and gas them the way the Nazis did.) Keith Henson From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Feb 10 00:30:50 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:30:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050210003050.49383.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > Remember what happened with the "Gun posts" of yore? > We almost blew > ourselves to pieces. Indeed. People kept shooting their mouths off. I bit the bullet and mass-deleted the posts, but they kept coming rapid-fire. And even in one thread, the topics being debated were a shotgun spread, deviating widely without title change. Part of the problem was the differing sets of facts that different people took as cannon... ...I'll stop. For now. ^_^; From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Feb 10 00:43:19 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:43:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT/TLC-Mission) Re: Arming the Vietnamese communists [new subj] Message-ID: <420AAE27.D1A1CA16@mindspring.com> Terry, Try this: http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~eemoise/viet3.html The information you are looking for is about halfway down. Dave Horne In a message dated 2/9/2005 10:30:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, fortean1 at mindspring.com writes: Anyone have sources citing the origin of weapons used by the Viet Minh during the Dien Bien Phu period? -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Feb 10 00:48:49 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:48:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Hugh Connects the Dots on MSM Hypocrisy Message-ID: <420AAF71.7EE571F5@mindspring.com> [another view on media bias... -Terry] As always, links in original. < http://dawnsearlylight.blogs.com/del/2005/02/hugh_connects_t.html > February 05, 2005 Hugh Connects the Dots on MSM Hypocrisy Hugh Hewitt is relentlessly pursuing, to great effect, CNN's Eason Jordan's comment about the American military targeting and killing 12 journalists in Iraq. But will the mainstream media (MSM) catch on to where the blogosphere is leading? He scores an excellent point by pointing out the MSM's hypocrisy. A search of Google News reveals 425 news stories on General Mattis' comments on shooting insurgents in Iraq. Gen. Mattis has a distinguished bio and is worthy of respect for his service to our country even if his comments may not have been particularly well chosen. However, Eason Jordan's comments reveal only 3 news stories on Google News, and only one of those, the Washington Times, is a newspaper. Jordan's comments are now over 8 days old and were made in front of world leaders and journalists at the World Economic Forum. By contrast, General Mattis' comments were before fellow soldiers at the American Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association. (His quote can be found here along with one of the few stories pointing out his audience.) Has the MSM given up policing its own comments? Has it surrendered its responsibility completely to the blogosphere? This would be regrettable for its own future, transferring yet more credibility away from the likes of CNN and putting it squarely into the hands of the blogs. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 10 00:53:42 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:53:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> Hi. I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics related to the impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. I would expect such a list to attract brilliant and innovative people, and I would expect that on such a list the majority of the posts would be positive, insightful, and future-focused. Does anyone know where I can find such a list? From sentience at pobox.com Thu Feb 10 01:20:38 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:20:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050209163652.01cdcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200502081732.AA1002700878@longevitymeme.org> <420A170D.1090709@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050209130435.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <420A7BCC.6030501@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050209163652.01cdcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <420AB6E6.9030205@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:08 PM 2/9/2005 -0800, Eliezer was baffled: > >>>>>> I think that in the end I would choose the ten years of transhuman >>>>>> life, for that I cannot imagine I would choose forty years at average >>>>>> intelligence over twenty years continued as myself. >>> >>> [Paraphrase: Eliezer currently stands halfway between average human >>> and transhuman and would prefer it that way even at a cost of >>> abbreviated life span] >> >> I don't know how you get the "halfway" figure. > > 40 at average cf. 20@"myself": 2/1 > 20@"myself" cf. 10 at transhuman: 2/1 If we assumed that I was ambivalent between both choices and that I used integrated moment utility, then it would follow that I valued 40 at average as much as 20 at myself as much as 10 at transhuman, from which it would follow that the moment utilities were a scalar multiple of 1/4, 1/2, and 1, from which it would follow that I considered my instants to have utility of 1/3 on a scale affinely normalized to have a 0 at "average human" and a 1 at "transhuman". Since the assumptions are wrong, this conclusion doesn't follow. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 10 02:11:41 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:11:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Recommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050209200937.019c6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 07:53 PM 2/9/2005 -0500, Dan C. wrote: >I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics related >to the >impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major >and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. What, you mean you're sick to death of all those really exciting re-posts by Terry Colvin about the weapon suppliers in the Peloponnesian War? Damien Broderick From jay.dugger at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 02:15:04 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:15:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> Message-ID: <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:53:42 -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Hi. > > I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics > related to the > impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major > and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. I would > expect such > a list to attract brilliant and innovative people, and I would expect > that on such a list > the majority of the posts would be positive, insightful, and future-focused. > > Does anyone know where I can find such a list? > This list, circa 1992-2000. From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 03:01:34 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:01:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist tour of Colombia In-Reply-To: <20050209203411.48695.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050210030134.70125.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Dear friends, My best transhumanist greetings to you all, wherever you are:-) I will be traveling for about two weeks in what I call the first transhumanist tour of Colombia. I will be giving major presentations in science academies, universities, museums, ministries and business groups (see for example: http://www.acac.org.co/home/noticias.shtml?x=3408). The three major cities that I will visit this time are Bogota, Medellin and Bucaramanga. Thanks to my contacts in Ecuador and Peru, I will be doing the same there in April and May, respectively. If you know people in these countries, please, let me know as well. Also, remember to register now for TransVision 2005, the largest transhumanist gathering in pre-transhumanist history so far in the world: www.TransHumanismO.org/tv05 TransVisionarily yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 04:15:59 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050210041559.22299.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay Dugger wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can find such a list? > > > > > This list, circa 1992-2000. > Ah, yes, the pre-socialist days. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 04:23:13 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209185850.033b0030@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20050210042313.75618.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Keith Henson wrote: > At 03:53 PM 09/02/05 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > >Grim indeed, but it's also our past. As long as we have an > operating system > >for societies which contains our neolithic firmware, we're safe. > Problems > >being when it breaks down, and we fall back to feral mode. > > You are going to have to tell me what you mean by such terms as > "firmware" and "neolithic." > > The standard measure of neolithic starts about 8000 BC. That's not > nearly enough time to have induced changes in the genetic based > psychological traits if that's what you call "firmware." Everything > since farming is cultural, software. Not necessarily, Keith. The tendency of ethnic groups to certain blood types, combined with evidence that certain blood types prefer certain types of farming-related diet, as well as ethnic specific genetic diseases, indicates that there has been some divergence since farming showed up, particularly as different plants and animals were domesticated in different areas. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 04:32:59 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:32:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction to government lies, and the lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20050209214406.59296.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502100433.j1A4XBs11378@tick.javien.com> > Adrian Tymes: > > The media's hardly a monolithic institution. Some > parts of it do indeed thrive on harping on the decay > of other parts of it. But big media's not all of it. > There are other organizations, instutitions, and even > individuals who've hyped it up...although, these days, > anyone who talks to anyone can arguably be called > "media" (thus my reference to "big" media). Yes, and this is an important observation. Orwell's Animal Farm could be summarized in two words: Power corrupts. The mainstream press amassed a lot of power as a watchdog over government corruption. Yet by beholding we become changed. As Orwell's swine came to resemble Farmer Jones (no relation) the mainstream press has become powerful and corrupt. They in turn developed a watchdog, the internet, which empowers all of us. Let us use our power wisely. spike From kevin at kevinfreels.com Thu Feb 10 04:38:59 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:38:59 -0600 Subject: META: Re: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> Message-ID: <00a901c50f2a$709ede30$0100a8c0@kevin> Science and technology? What about religion and philosophy? Where do the social sciences fit in? I don't think there is a problem with the content of the list. I have noticed that people, including myself, have become quite lazy with subject lines lately though. I am as much part of the problem as anyone, but I am going to get back on track. Maybe I can set an example for others to follow. If we could get back to labeling such as POLITICS: RELIGION: NANO: etc, things would be better for all. Maybe we could all agree on a pre-arranged set of subjects and have them posted to the rules. That way we don;t get POL, POLI, POLITICS and POLITICAL coming from various people. Here are a few I would like to see: POLI SCI EVOL TECH NANO MED BIO PHIL LAW Of course, most topics will fit into several catagories and most won;t fit into any one neatly, but the current rantings definitely wouldn;t turn up under tech. nano, bio, or med. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Clemmensen" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:53 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list > Hi. > > I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics > related to the > impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major > and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. I would > expect such > a list to attract brilliant and innovative people, and I would expect > that on such a list > the majority of the posts would be positive, insightful, and future-focused. > > Does anyone know where I can find such a list? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 04:45:04 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:45:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FW: Space Telescope Terminated? Message-ID: <200502100445.j1A4jFs12922@tick.javien.com> {8-[ _____ http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i7414 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 05:08:18 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:08:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050209190249.73589.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502100508.j1A58ds16022@tick.javien.com> This is a math related post, so those who do not like this sorta thing, please delete immediately. Damien posted recently about psi in lottery results. He supplied lotto data which has had me thinking the past few weeks, struggling to recall lessons from a college class from so verrry many years ago (we were programming in Fortran for evolutions sake). The lectures were about using the powerful Monte Carlo techniques for modeling physical systems. The exercise was to write down a number of random decimal digits. Then we were to generate a number of random numbers using the keypad along the top of the keyboard, then do the same using the ten key pad. Then we applied a number of tests of randomness to the number sets. You already know what happened: the human-generated number sets nearly all failed one or more criteria for randomness. The test that nearly all the human-generated lists failed was the one that requires taking the difference between adjacent numbers: humans think that random means spread out. {8-] The next assignment was to write a program to generate random decimal digits. I came up with an algorithm which relied on prime numbers, for everyone knows there are no consistent patterns in the primes, other than their density goes as n/ln(n). My program was slow and complicated, but at least it didn't work right. {8^D If we look at the ones column in the primes, we see only ones, threes, sevens and nines, clearly not random. But what about the tens column: are the tens column of the primes evenly distributed enough over all ten digits to pass the traditional tests for randomness? How do you prove it? All these years later, and just this week I discovered the answer to that interesting question, which I will share here if I hear any echoes to the sonar pings. Speculation welcome. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 07:37:06 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:37:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] free educational games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502100737.j1A7bMs02610@tick.javien.com> Hey cool check these: http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/European_Geography.htm and http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/web_games_menu.htm then hit the link for place the state - intermediate. It nearly as addictive as free cell. Warning may cause you to waste time. {8-] spike From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Feb 10 08:04:06 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:04:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: META: Re: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <00a901c50f2a$709ede30$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050210080406.38174.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > Science and technology? The "how" of transhumanism. > What about religion and > philosophy? While they may have much to offer, in practice these days they are often blind alleys and dead ends. > Where do the > social sciences fit in? The scientific aspects fit in quite well. Wild guesses about human nature without data to back them up are not "science". > I don't think there is a problem with the content of > the list. I do. I may have been guilty of contributing to the shift, but I can recognize my mistakes when they're pointed out. Harping on the current administration's policies, as opposed to finding ways to develop what we wish to develop despite the somewhat hostile environment - or, at least, to *EFFECTIVELY* address said hostile environment (complaining about it does not, in and of itself, help) - is not extropian. Debating whether certain points of history were more or less "libertarian" or any other political label does not meaningfully help us achieve a transhumanist future. > If we could get back to labeling such as POLITICS: > RELIGION: NANO: etc, > things would be better for all. No, we need to enforce moving political discussions to their own list. Possibly, auto-forward a certain thread (identified by title) to extro-politics when the various debates under it become mostly politics. This is not banning or censorship by any means: the posts still appear in public forums. It is merely an aid to those of us who wish to ignore said content. (Note that despite semi-frequent suggestions for labels, very few posters use them. That suggests not that posters should use them, but that the suggestion to use them is itself impractical and that better solutions are needed.) From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Feb 10 08:54:04 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:54:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <89b3a9efd0a06d6294c8ea3b45b242ea@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 11:32:58AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> You are spewing poison to win a point concerning politics being >> supposedly by its nature poisonous to the list? That is dishonest and >> very manipulative. Cease and desist at once! > > No, I'm telling my opinion and simultaneously telling my meta-opinion. > > Outsource politics to extropy-politics@ > > Orelse suffer the consequences. Consequences including you being sure to make discussing politics here extra painful on purpose? Or do I misunderstand your disclaimer levels? Is this a determinably self-fulfilling prophecy? If so then I refuse the manipulation. If not then I am opposed to the suggestion. This is the chat list. It is open to all kinds of stuff some extropians find important. Some of us value that openness. We don't generally value coercive manipulation. > This way lies madness. Don't destroy a yet another list. > Yes, please don't. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Feb 10 08:58:11 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:58:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1563cd8e17fc9e81d4cffbf3113beecb@mac.com> On Feb 9, 2005, at 3:53 PM, MB wrote: > > Eugen, you are right. Correct. Absolutely. This infighting is making > me delete posts at once if I see they're from folks who argue > politics. I didn't come to this list to read politics, there are many > lists for that. This list is for extropy, transhumnaism, the future, > AI, extending life, things of that sort. I don't come here as escapism. I don't know a way to the future that has no grounding in here and now. > > Please, folks, let's stay with the original program and outsource the > rest. There is no such limiting "original programming". From eugen at leitl.org Thu Feb 10 11:26:56 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:26:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050210112656.GD1404@leitl.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:53:42PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Hi. > > I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics > related to the > impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major > and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. I would > expect such > a list to attract brilliant and innovative people, and I would expect > that on such a list > the majority of the posts would be positive, insightful, and future-focused. > > Does anyone know where I can find such a list? I've personally seen several of such lists die. If there's one I'm yet unaware of I'm reasonably sure it won't last very long. We can delay the inevitable with some care and feeding, though. But that's not for us to decide, because collectively we can't. Here's an excellent observation from a yet another great list that's running into the same problems as any public forum lately: [snip] I would disagree. I'm seeing a similar deterioration in many mailing lists technical and political. There seems to be little or no acceptance of differing opinions. Ideas are cast out as being "wrong" when they are merely not the way they would do them. I would argue that the adversarial style is tracking the rise of the neocons in political circles. Is there connection? Possibly. I believe most technologists are mimics seeking ascendancy by copying the patterns of those in charge as a result, I rarely participate in mailing lists except to ask questions and give back what I have found. Usenet is a dead resource to me, as our most forums etc. I'm probably within a year or two of eliminating e-mail from my life except for essential business communications. > I don't know if Eugen's "poor stewardship" comment was directed > my way, but in any event I feel the guilt of having allowed this > deterioration. I was counting on individual/collective restraint > among the list members and not enough of that has been in evidence. you allowed the deterioration in the same sense that one allows a flash flood. I think it's a bigger change, a loss of civility, a deterioration of public manners, and a general intolerance that is the more likely cause. no blame > The list is now on moderation. I don't know what I'll do going > forward. It's possible I will simply disband the Irregulars. it would be a pity but it is your prerogative. You could also ask the irregulars for moderation volunteers. I think that it might also make sense to turn this into a moderated list for discussion topics and Steve has some wherewithal (or some other kind funder), we could modify mailman to direct follow-ups to a quicktopic. [snip] -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Feb 10 12:05:32 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:05:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <89b3a9efd0a06d6294c8ea3b45b242ea@mac.com> References: <20050209105157.GS1404@leitl.org> <20050209141533.GD1404@leitl.org> <20050209220701.GR1404@leitl.org> <89b3a9efd0a06d6294c8ea3b45b242ea@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050210120531.GI1404@leitl.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 12:54:04AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Consequences including you being sure to make discussing politics here > extra painful on purpose? Or do I misunderstand your disclaimer Sweet Jesus McMurthy, is this really so hard to understand? Why do I need so many posts to even get people to listen??? I guess nobody cares, anymore. I'm telling you my opinion, and simultaneously telling you it's not worth to be discussed on this list. You're not getting anything done by allowing polarizing issues through. If you think this is manipulation, be my guest. Do you really need to get any more sheep onto this pasture? The grass is almost all gone already. > levels? Is this a determinably self-fulfilling prophecy? If so then I > refuse the manipulation. If not then I am opposed to the suggestion. > This is the chat list. It is open to all kinds of stuff some > extropians find important. Some of us value that openness. We don't > generally value coercive manipulation. > > > >This way lies madness. Don't destroy a yet another list. > > > > Yes, please don't. Collectively, we have no choice. Other than to leave, of course. I guess it's time to take an extended vacation, again. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 14:09:42 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:09:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> References: <200502061235.j16CZVC30019@tick.javien.com> <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021006092c79b42d@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:41:29 -0800, Rick wrote: > Which is it for you, avoiding death? Or, transcending the issues and limits > of a naturally evolved lifestyle? Resist the urge to not face the question > and claim they are equal, you must pick one. Neither. The prospect of my death is an annoying one, but there's no point getting upset over it; in the postulated scenario, I cannot choose whether it happens, but I can choose how I react to it. The deciding factor for me is that if I take the offer under the terms given (presumably by a voyeuristic and marginally Friendly alien SI or somesuch?), I am forbidden to help humanity in any way - whereas there is no such restriction if I decline the offer. (My chances are obviously less, as a human, but at least I'm free to _try_.) Therefore, I decline. - Russell From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 14:26:48 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:26:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> Interesting, I am on this list since about 2000 and always found it very interesting. But I have missed the golden age 1992-2000. In which sense the list was better back then? G. On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:15:04 -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:53:42 -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > Hi. > > > > I would like to subscribe to a mailing list that focuses on topics > > related to the > > impact of science and technology on humanity, with an emphasis on major > > and potentially positive changes, such as nanotech and AI. I would > > expect such > > a list to attract brilliant and innovative people, and I would expect > > that on such a list > > the majority of the posts would be positive, insightful, and future-focused. > > > > Does anyone know where I can find such a list? > > > > > This list, circa 1992-2000. > From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 16:24:28 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:24:28 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502100508.j1A58ds16022@tick.javien.com> References: <20050209190249.73589.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> <200502100508.j1A58ds16022@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021008245d05ef96@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:08:18 -0800, spike wrote: > > If we look at the ones column in the primes, we > see only ones, threes, sevens and nines, clearly > not random. But what about the tens column: are > the tens column of the primes evenly distributed > enough over all ten digits to pass the traditional > tests for randomness? How do you prove it? > > All these years later, and just this week I > discovered the answer to that interesting question, > which I will share here if I hear any echoes to > the sonar pings. Speculation welcome. *ping* I'm curious - how did you do it? - Russell From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 10 16:45:48 2005 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:45:48 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420B8FBC.7070702@dsl.pipex.com> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >Interesting, I am on this list since about 2000 and always found it >very interesting. But I have missed the golden age 1992-2000. In which >sense the list was better back then? >G. > > I've been here since '96 or there abouts. They were talking about the golden age back then too, of course, but it was much more pleasant than it is now, or perhaps I was more naive. There wasn't so much political talk, mostly because any "socialists" were quickly scared off by the gun-totin' libertarian hardcore, or talk of current events; it was all forward looking, abstract, almost as if nobody had been outside their Y2K shelters in years. It was wonderful and outrageous. BM From dirk at neopax.com Thu Feb 10 17:30:58 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:30:58 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <003001c50e86$bc5327e0$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z> References: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <003001c50e86$bc5327e0$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z> Message-ID: <420B9A52.7090007@neopax.com> Hubert Mania wrote: >I said: > > > >>>Interestingly enough, it is a discourse about the sorrows of the >>>perpetrators. Most prominently: sexual violence against german >>>women by soldiers of the red army >>> >>> > >Amara said: > > > >>This. >> >>Are the German women speaking now, or are others speaking for >>them? >> >> > >They are speaking now for themselves, Amara. At least a handful of those who >survived. In books and tv-magazines. But it took them 5 or 6 decades to get >rid of their shame and talk about it. While Germany was separated, it was >un-pc to critizise the Red Army, especially in East Germany where the motto >was: "Learning from the Soviet Union means learning how to win". While we, >in the West, were told the same about the USA. > >In times of Cold War there was this silent agreement among Germans, that >Russian atrocities against German women or British and US air raids against >German cities should not be discussed in public. German soldiers had >committed awful crimes, so wasn't it more than jusitified to endure the >"punishments" of the victorious powers? And didn't they free uns from the >Nazi terror, by the way? > > > That may be true in Germany, but it certainly wasn't in Britain where such things had the occasional airing, complete with German witnesses telling their story. That story also includes the fate of millions of E European Germans (mostly Sudeten) killed after the war. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Thu Feb 10 20:09:57 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Lynn Graps) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:09:57 -0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rosetta Earth Swing-by 1 Message-ID: <200502101909.57018.Amara.Graps@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.rssd.esa.int/index.php?project=ROSETTA&page=Earth_Flyby On 04 Mar 2005, the European comet mission Rosetta will swing-by our planet Earth. It will come as close as 1900 km to the surface, at 22h10m UT. It will approach from away from the sun and have its closest approach shortly after 22h UT, on the illuminated side of the Earth. Rosetta approaches us from an area in the border between the constellations Leo and Sextans, visible almost all night from the northern and most of the southern hemisphere. It should become visible in large amateur telescopes around 26 Feb 2005, when it reaches a brightness of 18 magnitude. On the evening of the closest approach, it will move away from the constellation Sextans after sunset and move towards the direction of the sun, crossing the complete sky. Europe is favorably placed to follow this event. Between 19 h and 20 h UT (20 h - 21 h CET) it may actually become visible to the naked eye. It will move faster and faster towards the west, disappearing on the horizon around 22 h UT (23 h CET). We expect that amateur astronomers using video cameras hooked up to their telescope will be able to distinguish the solar panels of Rosetta which extend over 32 m. We will try to put the High Gain Antenna in a position that it could also be visible (ca. 2 m diameter). This page gives details about this event with finder charts and finder tables for the advanced amateur or public observatories. It will be expanded as the approach comes closer, so check back regularly. -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, CNR - ARTOV, Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA tel: +39-06-4993-4375 |fax: +39-06-4993-4383 ************************************************************************ "We came whirling out of Nothingness scattering stars like dust." --Rumi From kevin at kevinfreels.com Thu Feb 10 19:30:37 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:30:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: The Role of Politics on the list Message-ID: <004001c50fa7$002f92c0$0100a8c0@kevin> Dan has suggested that politics has no role on this list and that it should be moved to it's own list. I disagree. Transhumanism is not going to happen on it's own, we have to make it happen. Politics determines policy and policy has a huge role in determining whether or not I will live or die. All of the possible technology of the future won't help if it is illegal to develop that technology. I submit that the the "golden days" of the list were golden because the future was further away. As the future nears, politics will become more important. When the future is here, there will be no discussion of the future, only the politics of the present. We can't see past the singularity, but we are getting closer and even the list feels it's presence drawing near. If things were the same as before, it would indicate that we were stagnant. Instead, we see a gradual shift from future speculation to politics. This is as it should be. Kevin Freels -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reason at longevitymeme.org Thu Feb 10 19:29:25 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:29:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] people being people Message-ID: <200502101329.AA76742914@longevitymeme.org> Without comment: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0506,essay,60868,2.html Reason Founder, Longevity Meme -------- Harvard president Lawrence Summers is facing his latest?and biggest?public relations disaster. Ever since he suggested in a speech last month that the lack of top female scientists could be due to "innate differences" in genetics and upbringing between men and women, the national outcry has been fierce. "It's pandemonium," says Harvard junior Simon Rich, president of The Harvard Lampoon, of the situation on campus. Some alumni are threatening to stop giving money. The New York Times ran a major article questioning Summers's leadership skills. The National Organization for Women has called for his resignation. I went to school down the street from Harvard, at M.I.T. While growing up, I was never made to feel that there were "innate differences" between men and women when it came to anything; besides, both of my parents were scientists. My father, an eccentric chemistry professor, only once remarked that there were innate differences between me and my two brothers. "You're smarter than they are," he said. "You should be a scientist." He'd sneak me into the nearby Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton University on weekends to do my homework as a kid and started me on thick textbooks about physics and organic chemistry as soon as I learned how to read. By the time I was 12, he had me proofreading the scientific manuscripts he was preparing for publication, and at age 13 I applied to work in my first chemistry lab. I had just bought my first Kraftwerk record?The Man-Machine?and decided that robots were the future and that I wanted to be one. That summer I worked in my first laboratory, teaching a giant magnet connected to a robot arm how to conduct chemistry experiments. I met a kid there who was a year or two older than me, and he was applying to a place called M.I.T., where, according to what I'd heard, everyone liked robots if they weren't robots already, and where everyone believed technology was the future. I looked up to him, partially because he seemed to know more about robots than I did, and we became fast friends. We fell out of contact, but a few years later, he?by then a student at M.I.T.?encouraged me to apply there, and I did. A few months before I got to campus in the autumn of 1997, I got a letter from a tiny group calling itself the M.I.T. Extropians. They had mailed an inflammatory?and wholly unauthorized?eight-page pamphlet to the entire incoming freshman class, myself included. In it, they praised hoary teenage standbys like Ayn Rand, Beethoven, and Nietzsche; waxed philosophical about life extension, cybernetics, and neural networks; and disturbingly issued several sweeping statements about women and minorities, lashing out against affirmative action and M.I.T.'s liberal diversity policies. These guys were much more strident and extreme than Summers could ever be accused of being, even considering his worst verbal gaffes. The pamphlet included choice lines like "The average woman or 'underrepresented minority' at M.I.T. is less intelligent, less intellectual, and less ambitious. . . . The average woman majors in the softer, less mathematical majors, by contrast with the average man, who majors in the harder, more mathematical majors." The examples they offered of these "softer" majors were biology, my chosen field of chemistry, materials science, architecture, and civil and environmental engineering. It went on to say, "Ask upperclasswomen, better yet ask a sorority (who set out to rush 40% of the freshwomen every year), how often a group of women will sit down on the weekend, or Friday night, to discuss what Bell's Theorem and the Aspect Experiment imply for a hidden variables interpretation of quantum mechanics." The pamphlet ended with a ludicrous "Open Letter to the Prometheans, Class of 2001," a list of recommendations that included reading bad sci-fi and listening to chestnuts like Mahler's Fifth Symphony, and?finally and most crucially?the signatures of all three of the M.I.T. Extropians. Finally I could see who these morons were. One of the three names was my buddy from high school?the one who encouraged me to come to M.I.T. in the first place. I felt like I'd been kicked in the face. When I got to campus, I confronted him. "How could you do this?" He looked bemused. "I didn't mean you," he said. "You deserve to be here. We meant, like, other girls." I wanted to punch him but restrained myself. Besides, I'd never punched anyone in my life. And he was taller. That's the only time in my life that I've felt discriminated against for being a female in science. Happily, M.I.T. was an open, democratic system?no one cared if you were male or female, black or white, robot or nonrobot, as long as you could do the work. Being a great scientist or engineer has little to do with those superficial human designations. As students, we were joined by a single bond: We were all nerds. Besides, there were plenty of other girls at M.I.T., and I was relieved to find out that nearly all of my classmates thought that the Extropians were completely out of their minds. They got into major trouble with the administration, and M.I.T. refused to recognize them as a legitimate student group. A few guys from the M.I.T. humor magazine even dubbed themselves the M.I.T. Entropians, and handed out hundreds of copies of their own pamphlet, a ferocious line-by-line parody of the original. Years later, after I graduated, I ran into two of the three M.I.T. Extropians in New York City. What had happened to those three weirdos who fantasized about being lone misunderstood geniuses, of being Ender in Orson Scott Card's sci-fi classic Ender's Game? The ones that were going to cryogenically freeze themselves for life after death, who were going to upload their brains onto computers, who were investigating the deepest issues in artificial intelligence? None of them were actively doing science anymore. My former friend had discovered raves and told me excitedly that he'd spent the past year getting wildly immersed in San Francisco's psychedelic trance scene. "No more Mahler?" I asked. "No more Mahler." From steve365 at btinternet.com Thu Feb 10 20:46:22 2005 From: steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:46:22 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <20050207225445.M94496@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <5.1.0.14.0.20050209090305.033aa820@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <005001c50fb1$94a66cd0$d5219851@mobile> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Henson" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 > I think people miss the ecological point of war established when the > fighting units were tribes. It is to reduce a population seen as too > large. > > So the unstated, even *denied* object in a war is to kill as many as > possible. > > *Something* has to keep population in balance with the productivity of the > ecosystem. Since human have no predators, when the future looks bleak we > have to be our own predators. > > Grim. > > Keith Henson If we allow that the role of warfare in the past was to reduce the size of populations that were too large, then you'd have to add that it no longer performs that function and has become progressively less effective at performing it since the advent of agriculture. In modern times there are very few cases where a population has been significantly reduced even by massive technological warfare (one possible case was the nineteenth century war between Paraguay and its neighbours) and no case where even the most devastating warfare (or for that matter massive loss of life to totalitarian governments - in total a larger cause of death in the twentieth century than warfare) has appreciably slowed down the long term population trend or had anything other than a very short term and minor effect. The effects of modern sanitation and productivity increases would seem to outweigh even the worst efforts of warriors. SD From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 10 21:10:19 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:10:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] people being people In-Reply-To: <200502101329.AA76742914@longevitymeme.org> References: <200502101329.AA76742914@longevitymeme.org> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050210150738.01bf6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:29 PM 2/10/2005 -0600, Reason fwd'd: >in the autumn of 1997, I got a letter from a tiny group calling itself the >M.I.T. Extropians. They had mailed an inflammatory?and wholly >unauthorized?eight-page pamphlet to the entire incoming freshman class, >myself included. In it, they praised hoary teenage standbys like Ayn Rand, >Beethoven, and Nietzsche; waxed philosophical about life extension, >cybernetics, and neural networks; and disturbingly issued several sweeping >statements about women and minorities, lashing out against affirmative >action and M.I.T.'s liberal diversity policies. Who were these sweeties? Anyone know? (I have a vague memory of Max or some other extropian bigwheel dissociating the extropes from this self-named splinter group.) Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Feb 11 00:12:08 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:12:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <20050210042313.75618.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050209185850.033b0030@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050210183056.033b4690@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 08:23 PM 09/02/05 -0800, you wrote: >--- Keith Henson wrote: > > > At 03:53 PM 09/02/05 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > > >Grim indeed, but it's also our past. As long as we have an > > operating system > > >for societies which contains our neolithic firmware, we're safe. > > Problems > > >being when it breaks down, and we fall back to feral mode. > > > > You are going to have to tell me what you mean by such terms as > > "firmware" and "neolithic." > > > > The standard measure of neolithic starts about 8000 BC. That's not > > nearly enough time to have induced changes in the genetic based > > psychological traits if that's what you call "firmware." Everything > > since farming is cultural, software. > >Not necessarily, Keith. The tendency of ethnic groups to certain blood >types, combined with evidence that certain blood types prefer certain >types of farming-related diet, as well as ethnic specific genetic >diseases, indicates that there has been some divergence since farming >showed up, particularly as different plants and animals were >domesticated in different areas. I agree. You should have cited the lactose tolerance that developed in dairy farming cultures. There is an even more spectacular bunch of diabetes related fat accumulating genes that were largely weeded out of Europeans when famines became much less common a few hundred years ago. Jarrad Diamond did a good article on this recently. But those were psychological traits, not psychological traits. They were also under considerable selection pressure, if you could not drink cow's milk and that's all that was available, you starved. And there is historical evidence there was an epidemic of diabetes that killed people in droves. The *psychological* traits people have could have been under equally strong selection. I find it possible that *some* of them have been, particularly ones related to having to work like beavers in the growing season to store up food and fodder for winter (if you ran out of food before spring you died). But the one I am most concerned about, the trait for a population to make war on neighbors when they see a bleak future, I don't see where that trait would have been strongly anti selected post agriculture. Then there is the sheer span of time involved. Our hominid ancestors spent a minimum of 5 million years as hunter gatherers. Even at the slow rate of evolution that's enough time to become well adapted. 10,000 years is one part in 500. Unless there is available variation (probably) and a whacking lot of survival advantage (probably not) to a different psychological response to anticipated hard times we are stuck with the way hunter gatherers ultimately limited their populations. If you can make and support a more hopeful case, please do. The problem is that limiting births to keep the population under the ecological limits takes 30 years, and it is one of the least likely things to be supported by US politics. It is the most depressing subject I ever worked on. Keith Henson From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 00:15:14 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:15:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Book: THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS IDEA In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050205122525.029af020@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050211001514.72345.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Please contact us if you are interested in > contributing to THE WORLD'S MOST > DANGEROUS IDEA. Natasha and colleagues, Being a researcher myself with an interest in the field, I have been thinking quite a bit about the bioethics of the stem cell/therapeutic cloning debate specifically in the context of the contemporary American Judeo-Christian ethos/dogma. I have come up some pretty good arguments why a contemporary christian should support therapeutic cloning. I am planning on using these arguments in a bioethics essay that argues FOR therapeutic cloning by keeping its foundations in the realm of traditional American values alongside church, baseball, and apple pie. Would this be of interest for inclusion in such a book? If so when would you need it by? ===== The Avantguardian "The penis mightier than the sword." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From moulton at moulton.com Thu Feb 10 21:38:59 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:38:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1108071539.2674.1257.camel@localhost> I fondly remember the list as it was in its beginning. My memory (admittedly imperfect) of some of the differences between then and now: 1. Virtually everyone who posted a message on a topic knew what they were talking about. If someone did not know about something then they would ask for a reference. Argument by assertion and blustering bullsh1t were rare. 2. At the very beginning the volume was not very high but the quality was very good. There were not a lot of time wasting posts which quoted an entire message with only a lame one line followup. 3. A corollary to #1 and #2 is that there were people who would read a lot and not post on every topic which came along. 4. People could read and comprehend what was written. There was a lot less of the reply messages starting "Oh, you mean ..." followed by some bogus nonsense which was not even close to the original message. 5. Virtually everyone on the list was well versed in and committed to individual liberty and an improved future. They generally had a good understanding of a wide range of topics from free-market economics to pan-critical rationalism to technology and science. 6. Many of the people who posted in the first few years dropped off for a variety of reasons. I see some of them socially and occasionally on other lists, they are still around. Fred From gregburch at gregburch.net Fri Feb 11 01:09:45 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:09:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] people being people In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050210150738.01bf6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: That was a sad episode, indeed. If any college should have been a recruiting ground for would-be extropians, it should have been MIT in the late 90's. But unfortunately those guys and their pamphlet burned that possibility for a couple of generations. P.J. O'Rourke once described a bad public policy strategy (I forget what it was) as "like giving liquor and car keys to teenage boys." I'm afraid the brief, bad history of the so-called "MIT Extropians" is a good example of the same trope... GB > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Damien > Broderick > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:10 PM > To: reason at longevitymeme.org; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] people being people > > > At 01:29 PM 2/10/2005 -0600, Reason fwd'd: > > >in the autumn of 1997, I got a letter from a tiny group calling > itself the > >M.I.T. Extropians. They had mailed an inflammatory?and wholly > >unauthorized?eight-page pamphlet to the entire incoming freshman class, > >myself included. In it, they praised hoary teenage standbys like > Ayn Rand, > >Beethoven, and Nietzsche; waxed philosophical about life extension, > >cybernetics, and neural networks; and disturbingly issued > several sweeping > >statements about women and minorities, lashing out against affirmative > >action and M.I.T.'s liberal diversity policies. > > Who were these sweeties? Anyone know? (I have a vague memory of > Max or some > other extropian bigwheel dissociating the extropes from this self-named > splinter group.) > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Feb 11 01:11:55 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:11:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420B8FBC.7070702@dsl.pipex.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> <420B8FBC.7070702@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <1732a9af4819e362892bcf9f9e549044@mac.com> It was a pretty different political world back then. I wasn't as scared of my own government. There was no 9/11 and everything thereafter. This really isn't the "good old days". Acting the same in very different circumstances doesn't seem wise. On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Bryan Moss wrote: > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >> Interesting, I am on this list since about 2000 and always found it >> very interesting. But I have missed the golden age 1992-2000. In which >> sense the list was better back then? >> G. >> > > I've been here since '96 or there abouts. They were talking about the > golden age back then too, of course, but it was much more pleasant > than it is now, or perhaps I was more naive. There wasn't so much > political talk, mostly because any "socialists" were quickly scared > off by the gun-totin' libertarian hardcore, or talk of current events; > it was all forward looking, abstract, almost as if nobody had been > outside their Y2K shelters in years. It was wonderful and outrageous. > > BM > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 01:41:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:41:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] people being people In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050210150738.01bf6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050211014120.22396.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:29 PM 2/10/2005 -0600, Reason fwd'd: > > >in the autumn of 1997, I got a letter from a tiny group calling > itself the > >M.I.T. Extropians. They had mailed an inflammatory?and wholly > >unauthorized?eight-page pamphlet to the entire incoming freshman > class, > >myself included. In it, they praised hoary teenage standbys like Ayn > Rand, > >Beethoven, and Nietzsche; waxed philosophical about life extension, > >cybernetics, and neural networks; and disturbingly issued several > >sweeping statements about women and minorities, lashing out against > >affirmative action and M.I.T.'s liberal diversity policies. > > Who were these sweeties? Anyone know? (I have a vague memory of Max > or some other extropian bigwheel dissociating the extropes from this > self-named splinter group.) I don't recall, but what I do know is that the story isn't quite the way she portrays it. The pamphlet detailed what the actual MIT admissions standards were for white males, women, minorities, etc, with asians being honorary whites. The victimism groups and the postmodernists had a field day in the Boston Herald, the extropes were smeared as racists, neonazis, misogynists, etc. I wasn't there, I don't know who put the pamphlets together, but I will say that history should look at it as the counter-post-modern 'shot heard round the world' in the war against political correctness and reverse bigotry. A Boston Tea Party, if you will. The aftermath of offical and unofficial oppression against these pioneers would rather be likened to the Boston Massacre, only this time Crispus Attuck was a pasty white male nerd. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From sentience at pobox.com Fri Feb 11 01:43:07 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A brief transhuman life, anyone? In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021006092c79b42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200502061235.j16CZVC30019@tick.javien.com> <000001c50cb6$26166430$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> <8d71341e05021006092c79b42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420C0DAB.6040908@pobox.com> Russell Wallace wrote: > On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:41:29 -0800, Rick wrote: > >>Which is it for you, avoiding death? Or, transcending the issues and limits >>of a naturally evolved lifestyle? Resist the urge to not face the question >>and claim they are equal, you must pick one. > > Neither. The prospect of my death is an annoying one, but there's no > point getting upset over it; in the postulated scenario, I cannot > choose whether it happens, but I can choose how I react to it. The > deciding factor for me is that if I take the offer under the terms > given (presumably by a voyeuristic and marginally Friendly alien SI or > somesuch?), I am forbidden to help humanity in any way - whereas there > is no such restriction if I decline the offer. (My chances are > obviously less, as a human, but at least I'm free to _try_.) > Therefore, I decline. > > - Russell I agree and change my decision. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From dgc at cox.net Fri Feb 11 01:59:35 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:59:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <1108071539.2674.1257.camel@localhost> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> <1108071539.2674.1257.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <420C1187.4050307@cox.net> Fred C. Moulton wrote: >I fondly remember the list as it was in its beginning. My memory >(admittedly imperfect) of some of the differences between then and now: >1. Virtually everyone who posted a message on a topic knew what they >were talking about. If someone did not know about something then they >would ask for a reference. Argument by assertion and blustering >bullsh1t were rare. >2. At the very beginning the volume was not very high but the quality >was very good. There were not a lot of time wasting posts which quoted >an entire message with only a lame one line followup. >3. A corollary to #1 and #2 is that there were people who would read a >lot and not post on every topic which came along. >4. People could read and comprehend what was written. There was a lot >less of the reply messages starting "Oh, you mean ..." followed by some >bogus nonsense which was not even close to the original message. >5. Virtually everyone on the list was well versed in and committed to >individual liberty and an improved future. They generally had a good >understanding of a wide range of topics from free-market economics to >pan-critical rationalism to technology and science. >6. Many of the people who posted in the first few years dropped off for >a variety of reasons. I see some of them socially and occasionally on >other lists, they are still around. > >Fred > > > > Fred, I was on the list in 1995-1996. I dropped off in disgust a couple of times over the years and eventually came back each time. I almost dropped off last October as the politics and extreme polarization drove the SNR (signal to noise ratio) well below 0dB, and I did resort to mass deletes. I've stayed since the election in the hope that things would get better. They did for a brief while, but we are still seeing more politics than science, and more history than futurism. Neither the politics nor the history is related to extropy in any meaningful way that my weak mind can comprehend. I do understand that politics and history can be extremely relevant to Extropy's stated goals, but I just don't see it in these threads. If a particular political position is directly relevant to Extropy, fine. But most of this garbage just does not matter except via the most tenuous connections, and most such connections operate on such long timescales that they will be overtaken by events before they can affect the actual course of accelerating progress. History is similar. Why is it relevant that the US paid Ho Chi Minh's salary during his resistance against the Japanese during WWII, or that he was extremely careful to balance the Russians against the Chinese? Unless a historical post explicitly describes or discusses a political effect on Extropian goals, it is noise, not signal. Why does it matter that G.W. Bush evaded real military service by joining the Air National Guard, or that John Kerry was a Gung-Ho brown-water Navy officer who wanted to get his political ticket punched? Unless your post can explicitly describe the effect on the date of the impending Singularity, you are wasting my time. I give it about another week, and I'm off the list again. My request for the recommendation of a mailing list was not a joke. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 02:31:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <1732a9af4819e362892bcf9f9e549044@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I remember what it was like, and Michael Butlers description is more accurate, though being 1996 nobody was even planning their Y2K bunkers yet for another year or two. We talked of utility fog and smart weapons, jupiter brains, matrioska spheres, travelling relativistically and communicating via entangled particles. Snow Crash was THE novel that people read to blow their minds. Johnny Mnemonic, Count Zero, Lawnmowerman were still unanachronistic fiction and everybody was looking forward to accessing the Metaverse via fiber optic to everyones homes (until the CRA of 1998 killed that dream). To cryo or not to cryo was a perennial debate between the old hipsters and the young nano-santa fans. Caloric restriction vs. cave man dieting. Energy conservation vs pave the universe with nuke plants (my answer was yes to both). Cryptography vs steganography (or both). One extrope was the first internet centerfold, we had one of the first online art galleries, and extropians were central to devising many of the tools that created ecommerce. Now, the time when list traffic was low and the few posts there were were long and well referenced was when the list was only accessed by paid subscription. Those who couldn't or wouldn't pay belonged to the >H list, which was about as active then as the extropy-chat list is now. When the extropians list went free to the public most of the >H traffic migrated to it. When that happened long time extropians users who didn't want the 'diversity' passed around filter lists to pick out only posts by select extropians. Unlike Samantha, the rest of us were already scared of our government. We'd already seen Ruby Ridge, Waco, "Roby Ridge", and the crackdowns after Oklahoma City. We saw a federal government out of control, assasinating innocent citizens in their homes, burning them alive, shooting them, with medals, promotions, and commendations for the perpetrators. We saw millions of Americans homes seized by the government for self medicating, for exercising their 2nd Amendment rights, or even for selling vitamins. Snow Crash had come out in 1992, and we were all expecting cryptography and ecash to cause the demise of government as the economy shifted and the IRS wouldn't be able to keep up, figure out who paid what to who. Between crypto and Y2K, we were half expecting, half hoping Snow Crash would happen for real. Anarchy, no, not that left-wing socialist flavor, but true blue David Friedman anarcho-capitalism, was going to save the world and outcompete the states. Nobody realized how easily Congress could outlaw whole future timelines. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > It was a pretty different political world back then. I wasn't as > scared of my own government. There was no 9/11 and everything > thereafter. This really isn't the "good old days". > > Acting the same in very different circumstances doesn't seem wise. > > > On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Bryan Moss wrote: > > > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > > >> Interesting, I am on this list since about 2000 and always found > it > >> very interesting. But I have missed the golden age 1992-2000. In > which > >> sense the list was better back then? > >> G. > >> > > > > I've been here since '96 or there abouts. They were talking about > the > > golden age back then too, of course, but it was much more pleasant > > than it is now, or perhaps I was more naive. There wasn't so much > > political talk, mostly because any "socialists" were quickly scared > > > off by the gun-totin' libertarian hardcore, or talk of current > events; > > it was all forward looking, abstract, almost as if nobody had been > > outside their Y2K shelters in years. It was wonderful and > outrageous. > > > > BM > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 11 02:58:18 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:58:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420B8FBC.7070702@dsl.pipex.com> References: <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> <420B8FBC.7070702@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050210203918.01af4ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:45 PM 2/10/2005 +0000, BM wrote: >Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >>Interesting, I am on this list since about 2000 and always found it >>very interesting. But I have missed the golden age 1992-2000. In which >>sense the list was better back then? > >I've been here since '96 or there abouts. They were talking about the >golden age back then too, of course, but it was much more pleasant than it >is now, or perhaps I was more naive. I think I hopped on board midway thru '96, and it was indeed still fascinating. By then, many grand themes had been chewed over already for years. Newbies can get a hint of the flavor from the sundry extrope quotes I recycled in THE SPIKE, which I was writing in 1996; some of those came from an earlier epoch--from people like John Clark, Eugen Leitl, Anders Sandberg--and were borrowed with their permission, naturally. The difference between then and now was, in large part, the difference between the spotty boffins of the British Interplanetary Society talking about gosh-wow rocketry in the 1930s and 1940s, and a bunch of post-Apollo enthusiasts discussing what is just part of history. In 1996, nanotech, massive life extension, transhumanity and singularity were still extreme themes that marked us as crazed Buck Rogers types (as the scornful once referred to space flight enthusiasts). Now they're everywhere, conscripted by scientists on the one hand and topics for mass media discussion (and, it's true, continuing derision) on the other. Interestingly, I was just reading the February 1952 GALAXY magazine, where Robert Heinlein set out his analysis of the future, in particular the second half of the 20th century. He had a neat little diagram tracking change, with low conservative curves of various kinds for the faint-hearted, and a surging exponential curve of the singularity kind representing his view of real expected change. As usual, Heinlein was there before the rest of us. Damien Broderick From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Fri Feb 11 03:24:27 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:24:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Nobody realized how easily Congress could outlaw whole future >timelines. > And now, having seen it, a substantial percentage of Extropians seem to want to plug their fingers firmly in their ears, cry "LA LA LA" at the top of their lungs, and pretend that politics deserves to be shunted aside to some ghetto of an email list because it is "boring" or somesuch. Yeah, THAT'S effective. Then again, over in the WTA, we see the majority hostile to the party in power in the U.S. to the point where they won't even work with Republicans on issues where they share common ground, simply on the basis that they're Republicans and must therefore be the embodiment of evil by virtue of having voted for George Bush. Yeah, THAT'S practical. The libertarians are going comatose, the liberals are going into denial. Where's a poor realist-- I want the Posthuman Future to HAPPEN, DAMNIT, and I don't care how it does!-- supposed to go? Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 11 04:44:58 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:44:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021008245d05ef96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502110445.j1B4j8s29854@tick.javien.com> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:08:18 -0800, spike wrote: > > > > ... But what about the tens column: are > > the tens column of the primes evenly distributed > > enough over all ten digits to pass the traditional > > tests for randomness? Four extropians have pinged me offlist, so I will answer here: the lower digits are slightly more common than the higher digits. There are slightly more 1s than 9s. > > How do you prove it? Heres the arm-waving proof: You know that the number of primes less than n is approximated by the function n/ln(n). Focus for the moment on seven digit numbers. Use that natural log function to approximate that there are about 72400 primes less than 1000000 and about 137800 primes less than 2000000 so there are about 65400 seven digit primes with the leading digit 1. Use the same reasoning to approximate that there are about 58700 seven digit primes with the leading digit of 9. So there are about 11 percent more 1s than 9s in the leading digit. I knew this back so many years in college, but here's the kicker that I missed before: you can use that same line of reasoning and find that there is an access one tenth as high in the next digit to the right: there is about 1.1 percent more 1s than 9s in the hundred-thousands column, and likewise about 0.11 percent more 1s than 9s in the next column, and so on. So technically one could argue the distribution of digits in the primes cannot be expected to pass the tests of randomness. {8-] I generated all the primes less than a billion to test the theory. It works. Ain't that cool? {8^D ps Next time I will post some thoughts on what all this has to do with the lottery, and the limits of our ability to generate true random numbers, yea verily, even the limits of our ability to generate truly random numbers using mechanical devices such as a slot machine or those lottery number generating ping pong ball thingies. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 07:31:00 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:31:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> Reading Mike's desctiption of the good old days I almost wish I could go back in time, but not quite. It is the same kind of feeling that I have whan I remember cozy childhood moments. I was about ten when I watched the first Moon landing all night with family and friends, and I fondly remember the pure happiness of discussing our future in space with my friends. We all assumed that by 2005 we would be living on Mars. Well... Well it is a harsh cold complex and difficult world. The good old days of transhumanism were important, as childhood dreams always are, to create a raw sense of feeling of where we wanted to go. But then, well we have to go out in the cold world and build the thing. Now transhumanism is like a teen making the first clumsy steps in the adult world. We realize that we have to take transhumanism mainstream, building think tanks and businesses and political action groups, and of course we also realize that we are going to meet some resistence. But did we really expect it to be easy? And of course this also creates internal tensions between transhumanists of different political persuasions. But listen to me guys, this is GOOD. Discussing politics means that we are actually starting to discuss how to get there. And new ideas never emerge from groups where everyone is saying the same thing. Politics is central to transhumanism in the engineering sense of actually making it happen. Please lets not stop discussing politics on the list, I am quite willing to tolerate being called asshole a few times for the pleasure to contribute to developing something new and beautiful. I agree with Joseph's thoughts quoted below (perhaps with the exception of "I don't care how"). G. On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:24:27 -0500, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Nobody realized how easily Congress could outlaw whole future > >timelines. > > > > And now, having seen it, a substantial percentage of Extropians seem to > want to plug their fingers firmly in their ears, cry "LA LA LA" at the > top of their lungs, and pretend that politics deserves to be shunted > aside to some ghetto of an email list because it is "boring" or > somesuch. Yeah, THAT'S effective. > > Then again, over in the WTA, we see the majority hostile to the party in > power in the U.S. to the point where they won't even work with > Republicans on issues where they share common ground, simply on the > basis that they're Republicans and must therefore be the embodiment of > evil by virtue of having voted for George Bush. Yeah, THAT'S practical. > > The libertarians are going comatose, the liberals are going into denial. > Where's a poor realist-- I want the Posthuman Future to HAPPEN, DAMNIT, > and I don't care how it does!-- supposed to go? > > Joseph From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Fri Feb 11 08:06:38 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:38 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502110445.j1B4j8s29854@tick.javien.com> References: <200502110445.j1B4j8s29854@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <420C678E.8060605@optusnet.com.au> spike wrote: >>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book >> >>On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:08:18 -0800, spike wrote: >> >>>... But what about the tens column: are >>>the tens column of the primes evenly distributed >>>enough over all ten digits to pass the traditional >>>tests for randomness? > > > Four extropians have pinged me offlist, so I will answer > here: the lower digits are slightly more common than the > higher digits. There are slightly more 1s than 9s. > > SNIP How about if you start with say, the seven digit primes, and discard first two and last two digits. Would that give you truly random numbers? -David From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Feb 11 08:19:46 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:19:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <562b564d1b632987bd9c2aa868be46b3@mac.com> On Feb 10, 2005, at 6:31 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > I remember what it was like, and Michael Butlers description is more > accurate, though being 1996 nobody was even planning their Y2K bunkers > yet for another year or two. We talked of utility fog and smart > weapons, jupiter brains, matrioska spheres, travelling relativistically > and communicating via entangled particles. Snow Crash was THE novel > that people read to blow their minds. Johnny Mnemonic, Count Zero, > Lawnmowerman were still unanachronistic fiction and everybody was > looking forward to accessing the Metaverse via fiber optic to everyones > homes (until the CRA of 1998 killed that dream). > All of this sounds pretty wonderful to me. I amend my previously stated opinion in keeping with something Dan Clemmenson said that struck a chord. I will refrain from posting political things here except where I can show a strong connection to extropy. I would also love to spend more time on envisioning a post-scarcity future and how to bring such about. > > > Unlike Samantha, the rest of us were already scared of our government. > We'd already seen Ruby Ridge, Waco, "Roby Ridge", and the crackdowns > after Oklahoma City. We saw a federal government out of control, > assasinating innocent citizens in their homes, burning them alive, > shooting them, with medals, promotions, and commendations for the > perpetrators. We saw millions of Americans homes seized by the > government for self medicating, for exercising their 2nd Amendment > rights, or even for selling vitamins. > Agreed. It isn't that I wasn't scared before. I am much more scared now though. Since 911 the degree of naked government power and the near automatic approval of same has increased drastically. Checks on the power and public understanding of the danger have sharply declined. Back then I used to still believe we the people could stand up to our government and would while we still could. I really wish I still believed that. > Snow Crash had come out in 1992, and we were all expecting cryptography > and ecash to cause the demise of government as the economy shifted and > the IRS wouldn't be able to keep up, figure out who paid what to who. > Between crypto and Y2K, we were half expecting, half hoping Snow Crash > would happen for real. Anarchy, no, not that left-wing socialist > flavor, but true blue David Friedman anarcho-capitalism, was going to > save the world and outcompete the states. > > Now there is a bit of history I would be very interested in and that is directly applicable to extropy. How was e-cash and crypto-anarchy stopped? Is it a dead issue or is there still reason for hope along these lines? - samantha From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 11 08:32:36 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:32:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <420C678E.8060605@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200502110832.j1B8Wks25584@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David There are slightly more 1s than 9s. > > > > > > SNIP > > How about if you start with say, the seven digit primes, and discard > first two and last two digits. Would that give you truly random numbers? > > -David No. The smaller digits still (slightly) predominate, by the line of reasoning given in the previous post. But the excess of low digits is very small, and the non-randomness will only show up if you have a lot of data points. This leads to the point I was going to make: even those random number generating mechanisms, such as the globes filled with ping pong balls used to generate lottery numbers, will have a small non-randomness. This might be caused by extremely small effects, such as slight differences in the weights of the balls. The non-randomness caused by these tiny effects will only show up if you have skerjillions of data points, maybe more than all the lotteries every held to date. This all has a direction, but I want to hold it back a little longer to give interested parties a chance to think it over. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 09:07:51 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:07:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <562b564d1b632987bd9c2aa868be46b3@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050211090751.58876.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Feb 10, 2005, at 6:31 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Snow Crash had come out in 1992, and we were all expecting > > cryptography and ecash to cause the demise of government as the > > economy shifted and the IRS wouldn't be able to keep up, figure > > out who paid what to who. Between crypto and Y2K, we were half > > expecting, half hoping Snow Crash would happen for real. Anarchy, > > no, not that left-wing socialist flavor, but true blue David > > Friedman anarcho-capitalism, was going to save the world and > > outcompete the states. > > > > > > Now there is a bit of history I would be very interested in and that > is directly applicable to extropy. How was e-cash and crypto-anarchy > stopped? Is it a dead issue or is there still reason for hope along > these lines? a) Between the CRA of 1998 pooching the bandwidth growth curve by erecting barriers to ubiquitous fiber optic (and the resulting bankruptcy of Enron, WorldCom, and Global Crossing), b) Federal banking activism, using 'terrorism' and 'drug war' legislation to curb banking privacy, c) Federal pressure internationally in the form of MLAT treaties, as well as inept implementations like PayPal, which has established a reputation for fraud amid loose security, d) as well as geek overthinking of ecash in the form of eGold, GoldMoney, etc with a strict insistence upon purist libertarian banking (i.e. fungibility with precious metals), rather than implementing a land/debt backed electronic currency that people could actually use. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 11 10:19:08 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:19:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <562b564d1b632987bd9c2aa868be46b3@mac.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <562b564d1b632987bd9c2aa868be46b3@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050211101908.GE1404@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:19:46AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Now there is a bit of history I would be very interested in and that is > directly applicable to extropy. How was e-cash and crypto-anarchy Ecash and crypto-anarchy were never stopped. They never happened. A small circle of smart, devious people outlined a machinery, but never implemented enough for it in a practically usable form even for an initial user base. Johnny Doe hasn't even heard about any of this. Tim May is just a Usenet troll these days. Most cypherpunks work for The Man. (Speaking of lists, cypherpunks@ is one of the former great ones which has been completely reduced to prebiotic urslime. Every single smart person has left. I'm still there, which I guess tells something. Cryptography@ putters on, greatly diminished but still usable -- due to moderation). Cryptography is hard, and only a few people can create a working set of protocols and an implementation. Instead, Chaum et al. secured key IP by patents, which gathered dust on the virtual shelves. Some of these recently expired, and there are some startups trying to get somebody to notice that they exist. Since you haven't heard of them, they're not succeeding very well. Very few instances of working cypherpunk technology (anonymous remailers) are a great pain to use and a major hassle to operate, and are completely overrun by assholes, spam, and are a great virus vector (this is not conjecture, in case somebody is wondering). There are a few ongoing, promising projects (not Freenet) which very few people here are aware of. > stopped? Is it a dead issue or is there still reason for hope along > these lines? There are three keystones which must happen: working traffic remixing at TCP/IP level, persistent nyms and a distributed filestore with agoric throttling (abuse runs rampant when anything truly anonymous happens). Some rudimentary prototypes of parts of that infrastructure exist, not not a working whole, nor a way to deploy initial userbase. I'm sure Hal Finney (if he's still here) can tell great many more details. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 11 10:34:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:34:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: <20050211103433.GI1404@leitl.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:24:27PM -0500, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Then again, over in the WTA, we see the majority hostile to the party in Over at the WTA there's a wta-politics@, and a rather firm policy to move polarizing, unconstructive, toxic, moronic drivel there. And to KEEP IT THERE. I see there's no firm support for the motion (to establish an extropy-politics@, and list snipers to enforce thread outsorcing, to spell it out). Which effectively means this list is dead, on the long run. It's on life support right now, but the decline has been so slow and steady that you all think this is normal. This how lists ought to be, right? Right? > power in the U.S. to the point where they won't even work with > Republicans on issues where they share common ground, simply on the > basis that they're Republicans and must therefore be the embodiment of > evil by virtue of having voted for George Bush. Yeah, THAT'S practical. > > The libertarians are going comatose, the liberals are going into denial. > Where's a poor realist-- I want the Posthuman Future to HAPPEN, DAMNIT, > and I don't care how it does!-- supposed to go? We all have to shit. But don't shit where you eat. I can't put it any plainer than that. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Feb 11 12:46:59 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:46:59 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211103433.GI1404@leitl.org> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> <20050211103433.GI1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211063728.03296258@pop-server.austin.rr.com> The list is not dead. That's like saying art is dead, which was a very poor forecast. I would like to see a extropy-chat-politics list. I'd also like to see transhumanists discussing world future issues and politics away from the standard libertarian and social democrat soap-boxes. About the WTA main list -- it goes through all sorts of problems, just like all lists. That list has political bonkers, stale days and vivid days. Just yesterday there were political postings on the main list, not the political list, and an argument, right? On this list, I'd like to see ideas developed, discussed and debated. Now, with all that said, does anyone have a topic that will enrich our thinking and understanding of how the heck we are going to realize our extropic future? Thanks, Natasha At 04:34 AM 2/11/2005, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:24:27PM -0500, Joseph Bloch wrote: > > > Then again, over in the WTA, we see the majority hostile to the party in > >Over at the WTA there's a wta-politics@, and a rather firm policy to move >polarizing, unconstructive, toxic, moronic drivel there. And to KEEP IT >THERE. > >I see there's no firm support for the motion (to establish an >extropy-politics@, and list snipers to enforce thread outsorcing, to spell it >out). > >Which effectively means this list is dead, on the long run. > >It's on life support right now, but the decline has been so slow and steady >that you all think this is normal. This how lists ought to be, right? > >Right? > > > power in the U.S. to the point where they won't even work with > > Republicans on issues where they share common ground, simply on the > > basis that they're Republicans and must therefore be the embodiment of > > evil by virtue of having voted for George Bush. Yeah, THAT'S practical. > > > > The libertarians are going comatose, the liberals are going into denial. > > Where's a poor realist-- I want the Posthuman Future to HAPPEN, DAMNIT, > > and I don't care how it does!-- supposed to go? > >We all have to shit. But don't shit where you eat. I can't put it any plainer >than that. > >-- >Eugen* Leitl leitl >______________________________________________________________ >ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org >8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE >http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Feb 11 12:53:52 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:53:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 01:31 AM 2/11/2005, Giulio wrote: >But did we really expect it to be easy? >And of course this also creates internal tensions between >transhumanists of different political persuasions. But listen to me >guys, this is GOOD. Discussing politics means that we are actually >starting to discuss how to get there. And new ideas never emerge from >groups where everyone is saying the same thing. >Politics is central to transhumanism in the engineering sense of >actually making it happen. Please lets not stop discussing politics on >the list, I am quite willing to tolerate being called asshole a few >times for the pleasure to contribute to developing something new and >beautiful. Thanks Giulio's, nicely stated. But, we could also have a politics list if the majority wants it. Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Feb 11 13:02:45 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:02:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211065406.032b02a8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 2/10/2005, Joseph wrote: >And now, having seen it, a substantial percentage of Extropians seem to >want to plug their fingers firmly in their ears, cry "LA LA LA" at the top >of their lungs, and pretend that politics deserves to be shunted aside to >some ghetto of an email list because it is "boring" or somesuch. Yeah, >THAT'S effective. > >Then again, over in the WTA, we see the majority hostile to the party in >power in the U.S. to the point where they won't even work with Republicans >on issues where they share common ground, simply on the basis that they're >Republicans and must therefore be the embodiment of evil by virtue of >having voted for George Bush. Yeah, THAT'S practical. > >The libertarians are going comatose, the liberals are going into denial. >Where's a poor realist-- I want the Posthuman Future to HAPPEN, DAMNIT, >and I don't care how it does!-- supposed to go? This post got a good chuckle out of me this morning. Over in one corner is James Hughes pushing social democrat agenda and in the other corner is Jose Jose Cordeiro ardently defending the conservative stance. What I really like about this long-term debate is that they are both on the board of WTA. Now that is progress! Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregburch at gregburch.net Fri Feb 11 13:06:07 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:06:07 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211101908.GE1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: > From: Eugen Leitl > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:19 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list > > Ecash and crypto-anarchy were never stopped. They never happened. > > A small circle of smart, devious people outlined a machinery, but never > implemented enough for it in a practically usable form even for an initial > user base. Johnny Doe hasn't even heard about any of this. Tim > May is just a > Usenet troll these days. Most cypherpunks work for The Man. > [snip] > Cryptography is hard, and only a few people can create a working set of > protocols and an implementation. Instead, Chaum et al. secured key IP by > patents, which gathered dust on the virtual shelves. Some of > these recently > expired, and there are some startups trying to get somebody to notice that > they exist. Since you haven't heard of them, they're not succeeding very > well. > > Very few instances of working cypherpunk technology (anonymous > remailers) are > a great pain to use and a major hassle to operate, and are > completely overrun > by assholes, spam, and are a great virus vector (this is not > conjecture, in > case somebody is wondering). > > There are a few ongoing, promising projects (not Freenet) which very few > people here are aware of. > > > stopped? Is it a dead issue or is there still reason for hope along > > these lines? > > There are three keystones which must happen: working traffic > remixing at TCP/IP > level, persistent nyms and a distributed filestore with agoric throttling > (abuse runs rampant when anything truly anonymous happens). > > Some rudimentary prototypes of parts of that infrastructure > exist, not not a > working whole, nor a way to deploy initial userbase. Sasha and I -- and many others -- used to dream big dreams about the convergence of these technologies. (As a personal note, Sasha's death was a punctuation mark for many, many people in that old core group, but that's another, even more painful topic.) Thinking back on the world we imagined being implemented with AnarchoCyphertopian(c) technologies, it seems in hindsight there were two phenomena that we didn't foresee with enough clarity -- terrorism and spam. And they seem like they are related in an important way. They are both examples of a class of users of such technology that have no consideration for secondary values; they sacrifice everything else to achieve just one aim that is all-important to them and that are complete spoilers for all other members of the user community. I like the sound of what you've written -- "agoric throttling" -- is that your term, Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age of 2005 that the problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing to burn the community to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. GB From dwish at indco.net Fri Feb 11 14:37:49 2005 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:37:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perspex? Message-ID: <200502111432.j1BEWODF018709@br549.indconet.com> Has anyone here read about Dr. James Anderson?s Perspex Machine? Thoughts anyone? Seems I need to brush up on my Trig, Cal, and Geometry after reading his work. 4D matrix Solutions to link models like time travel, mind/body, and AI. Very interesting work . Dustin Wish Systems Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA - Ark *********************************************************** "The height of cleverness is to be able to conceal it." ~Fran?ois de la Rochefoucauld (1613-1680) *********************************************************** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Feb 11 15:57:29 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:57:29 -0500 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: References: <20050211101908.GE1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050211105327.033d8800@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 07:06 AM 11/02/05 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: snip >Thinking back on the world we imagined being implemented with >AnarchoCyphertopian(c) technologies, it seems in hindsight there were two >phenomena that we didn't foresee with enough clarity -- terrorism and >spam. And they seem like they are related in an important way. They are >both examples of a class of users of such technology that have no >consideration for secondary values; they sacrifice everything else to >achieve just one aim that is all-important to them and that are complete >spoilers for all other members of the user community. I like the sound of >what you've written -- "agoric throttling" -- is that your term, >Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age of 2005 that the >problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing to burn the community >to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. I think I know why you missed terrorism and spam. The reason is deeply embedded in human minds and is a related to what I have been discussing here and other places for the last two years. More if you want it. Keith Henson From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 16:04:02 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:04:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Greg Burch wrote: > > Sasha and I -- and many others -- used to dream big dreams about the > convergence of these technologies. (As a personal note, Sasha's death > was a punctuation mark for many, many people in that old core group, > but that's another, even more painful topic.) Yes, at that point our musings and speculations stopped being such and many of us were shocked into doing something in the real to make things happen. > > Thinking back on the world we imagined being implemented with > AnarchoCyphertopian(c) technologies, it seems in hindsight there were > two phenomena that we didn't foresee with enough clarity -- terrorism > and spam. And they seem like they are related in an important way. > They are both examples of a class of users of such technology that > have no consideration for secondary values; they sacrifice everything > else to achieve just one aim that is all-important to them and that > are complete spoilers for all other members of the user community. I > like the sound of what you've written -- "agoric throttling" -- is > that your term, Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age > of 2005 that the problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing > to burn the community to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. The barbarian at the gate problem rears its ancient head. How is a villager to make the pillager pay more for his loot than it is worth? In the real, we have guns to shoot perpetrators in self defense. We have police and courts and jails to deal with those that escape victim-dispensed justice. In the virtual, there are measures available to force spammers to eat up processing dealing with bogus responses. Most spam-combatting sofware is purely deflective in nature, they don't repond with pro-active measures to disable a spammer, they simply filter it out. Net terrorism (primarily in the form of virus dispersal), being distributive in nature, is even harder to deal with. Anti-virus software is, similarly, merely prophylactic in nature, it doesn't do anything to track viruses back to their source. Such a guided missile technology should be implemented. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 16:39:26 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:39:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Perspex? In-Reply-To: <200502111432.j1BEWODF018709@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <20050211163926.44742.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: > Has anyone here read about Dr. James Anderson?s Perspex Machine? > Thoughts anyone? Seems I need to brush up on my Trig, Cal, and > Geometry after reading his work. 4D matrix > > Solutions to link models like time travel, mind/body, and AI. Very > interesting work MMM.... the opening self-quote is a bit arrogant. Two pages of hand waving and 20 pages of glossary and bibliography. THis isn't a programming language, a circuit design methodology, a schematic. It's a theory. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dwish at indco.net Fri Feb 11 16:41:11 2005 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502111635.j1BGZkDD022783@br549.indconet.com> With viruses, it is problem of not being able to track most effectively. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:04 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) --- Greg Burch wrote: > > Sasha and I -- and many others -- used to dream big dreams about the > convergence of these technologies. (As a personal note, Sasha's death > was a punctuation mark for many, many people in that old core group, > but that's another, even more painful topic.) Yes, at that point our musings and speculations stopped being such and many of us were shocked into doing something in the real to make things happen. > > Thinking back on the world we imagined being implemented with > AnarchoCyphertopian(c) technologies, it seems in hindsight there were > two phenomena that we didn't foresee with enough clarity -- terrorism > and spam. And they seem like they are related in an important way. > They are both examples of a class of users of such technology that > have no consideration for secondary values; they sacrifice everything > else to achieve just one aim that is all-important to them and that > are complete spoilers for all other members of the user community. I > like the sound of what you've written -- "agoric throttling" -- is > that your term, Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age > of 2005 that the problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing > to burn the community to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. The barbarian at the gate problem rears its ancient head. How is a villager to make the pillager pay more for his loot than it is worth? In the real, we have guns to shoot perpetrators in self defense. We have police and courts and jails to deal with those that escape victim-dispensed justice. In the virtual, there are measures available to force spammers to eat up processing dealing with bogus responses. Most spam-combatting sofware is purely deflective in nature, they don't repond with pro-active measures to disable a spammer, they simply filter it out. Net terrorism (primarily in the form of virus dispersal), being distributive in nature, is even harder to deal with. Anti-virus software is, similarly, merely prophylactic in nature, it doesn't do anything to track viruses back to their source. Such a guided missile technology should be implemented. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Feb 11 16:53:30 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:30 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >>that your term, Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age >>of 2005 that the problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing >>to burn the community to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. >> >> > >The barbarian at the gate problem rears its ancient head. How is a >villager to make the pillager pay more for his loot than it is worth? >In the real, we have guns to shoot perpetrators in self defense. We >have police and courts and jails to deal with those that escape >victim-dispensed justice. > >In the virtual, there are measures available to force spammers to eat >up processing dealing with bogus responses. Most spam-combatting >sofware is purely deflective in nature, they don't repond with >pro-active measures to disable a spammer, they simply filter it out. >Net terrorism (primarily in the form of virus dispersal), being >distributive in nature, is even harder to deal with. Anti-virus >software is, similarly, merely prophylactic in nature, it doesn't do >anything to track viruses back to their source. Such a guided missile >technology should be implemented. > > > And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider community. If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly reduced. Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of assets and lengthy jail time for a start. Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Feb 11 16:55:43 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:55:43 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050211105327.033d8800@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <20050211101908.GE1404@leitl.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20050211105327.033d8800@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <420CE38F.70800@neopax.com> Keith Henson wrote: > I think I know why you missed terrorism and spam. > > The reason is deeply embedded in human minds and is a related to what > I have been discussing here and other places for the last two years. > The reason for both is the same. They are both cost effective methods. Until that changes the problems will not go away. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 11 18:06:48 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:48 +0100 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 04:53:30PM +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. The same infrastructure can provide a continuum between complete freedom, and complete control. The user can choose freely. Reversibly, simultaneously. Both one-time and persistent nyms can be provably separated from physical location, at the cost of increased latency (not an issue when streaming). You can have both. There are no tradeoffs. Abuse floor for one-time nyms will be so high that few people will use them often. Building nym prestige becomes worthwhile. > The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider > community. No. Solutions exist, they're not being deployed. People are the problem, not technology. You can't solve people-domain problems with technology as long that technology doesn't have an intrinsic sufficient incitement, or its absence sufficiently penalized. You can't make people think and act. > If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly reduced. Great! Crack down on Microsoft, mandate use of hardened, secure systems. Both spam and virus problem almost instantly almost completely disappears. > Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise via Great! Lets make money flow realtime inspectable and controlled... er... perhaps not. > spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of assets and Charge money for email, make senders fully authenticated. What a stupid idea. > lengthy jail time for a start. Have fun tracking down some random spammer in Malaysia, or Tunisia. What do you propose, having them extreme sanctioned by a special force team? Great. Cost effective, makes for a great press. > Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and A terrorist jaywalker crossed the street before me today. I blew him away with my bazooka. That will teach'em, them terrorists jaywalkers. I intend to start on parking violation terrorists and overdressing terrorists, next. Killin' is too good for them. > punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been handed > down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. Yes! That's the spirit! Tape them to streetlights, and let crows pluck out their eyes! Will make them realize. Make them movie sharer terrdurists ride the lightning!!!1 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 18:25:58 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloned beef in food supply? And others... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211063728.03296258@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050211182558.1486.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > On this list, I'd like to see ideas developed, > discussed and debated. Now, > with all that said, does anyone have a topic that > will enrich our thinking > and understanding of how the heck we are going to > realize our extropic future? Mildly political, but: Read http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-sci-cattle10feb10,1,7022762.story?coll=la-headlines-technology closely. Note the parts where it says cloned cattle are soon to be sold without tracking. Conclusion: cloned beef will soon be - and probably already is, since there are those who wouldn't admit to it but would sell earlier - in the general US food supply, unlabelled because the FDA won't permit sales of beef that is labelled as cloned long after it said it would issue a decision. If the FDA was deliberately intending to create a situation where it would be "impossible" to regulate cloned food while appearing to appease the squeamish, this would make a great approach - and it's not like it wasn't predictable. Also: if you haven't heard of BrainGate, google for it. I wonder if there's any chance of writing an open source driver for that hardware - or if the proprietary drivers work well enough. Also, I wonder if there is a way to partially automate the installation, so you don't need (as much) expensive neurosurgeon service. (Part of the challenge: adapting the interface to each person's somewhat unique, yet somewhat mass-produced, neural map.) Third, what would happen if someone seriously floated the proposal to mine some M-type asteroids as a means of reducing the US debt. Even if you concentrated on extracting plantinum-group and other precious metals and returning them to Earth (there are arguments about the value of iron in space, but those presume a viable space construction industry which doesn't yet exist, thus the value of raw iron in space is essentially $0 at this time), there's enough to at least take out a significant chunk of the debt. Promise every contractor involved a share of the loot but emphasize that the steps to get there can't cost that much, and you'll probably get cooperation on the cost controls even from Boeing and Lockheed (traditionally very expensive providers of space access) out of self-interest. If any other nations protest about the dangers of moving asteroids around - well, the US's present administration isn't that concerned about its foreign image anyway, but more about making history and doing what's right even despite present critics. Certainly, wiping out the debt that more or less began with Reagan, or even just setting up the program that would do so (say, by harvesting a small asteroid before 2009 - the deadline for Bush to get serious credit for this - and setting things up to harvest more and larger asteroids afterwards), would be a monumental achievement for the Bush administration. From dirk at neopax.com Fri Feb 11 18:42:28 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:42:28 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> Eugen Leitl wrote: >>The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider >>community. >> >> > >No. Solutions exist, they're not being deployed. People are the problem, not >technology. > > > That *is* the 'wider community'. >You can't solve people-domain problems with technology as long that >technology doesn't have an intrinsic sufficient incitement, or its >absence sufficiently penalized. You can't make people think and act. > > > >>If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly reduced. >> >> > >Great! Crack down on Microsoft, mandate use of hardened, secure systems. >Both spam and virus problem almost instantly almost completely disappears. > > > If it works, fine. >>Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise via >> >> > >Great! Lets make money flow realtime inspectable and controlled... er... perhaps not. > > > And nobody has any idea what people and companies use spammers? Don't they actually include some contact details in their spam, or have I missed something? >>spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of assets and >> >> > >Charge money for email, make senders fully authenticated. > >What a stupid idea. > > > >>lengthy jail time for a start. >> >> > >Have fun tracking down some random spammer in Malaysia, or Tunisia. What do >you propose, having them extreme sanctioned by a special force team? Great. >Cost effective, makes for a great press. > > > I suggest that such countries be made to take these problems seriously. Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within nations that fail to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good way to start. >>Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and >> >> > >A terrorist jaywalker crossed the street before me today. I blew him away >with my bazooka. That will teach'em, them terrorists jaywalkers. I intend to >start on parking violation terrorists and overdressing terrorists, next. > >Killin' is too good for them. > > > No, killin' is exactly good enough. I rather like the Chinese way of doing things. The bill for the bullet can be sent to the virus writers family. >>punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been handed >>down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. >> >> > >Yes! That's the spirit! Tape them to streetlights, and let crows pluck out >their eyes! Will make them realize. Make them movie sharer terrdurists ride >the lightning!!!1 > > > Simple life in prison will suffice. IIRC there's a case coming up for sentence in the US concerning a spammer who's looking at ten years (we can but hope...) -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 18:49:24 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050211184924.25250.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > But listen to me > guys, this is GOOD. Discussing politics means that > we are actually > starting to discuss how to get there. It would be, if the politics were relevant. Part of the problem is that the politics being discussed were only barely tangentially related to extropy, if even that much. > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:24:27 -0500, Joseph Bloch > wrote: > > And now, having seen it, a substantial percentage > of Extropians seem to > > want to plug their fingers firmly in their ears, > cry "LA LA LA" at the > > top of their lungs, and pretend that politics > deserves to be shunted > > aside to some ghetto of an email list because it > is "boring" or > > somesuch. Yeah, THAT'S effective. Again, it's not boring, it's just that the politics being discussed were irrelevant. Maybe Bush stole the election, maybe he didn't. It Doesn't Matter To This List's Topic. (Some counter that politics always matters to everything even remotely connected to reality, since the politicians can always outlaw things and grant - or not - funding for things. Said arguments miss the distinction between discussing how to convince politicians to pass a certain law or to fund a certain project as opposed to simple general discussion of politicians' viewpoints and characters. The latter can be argued as a necessary part of the former, except that it's only useful as a part, and only when discussing specific proposals, not as the entirety of the discussion in absence of any specific proposals. It is this latter, useless-to-this-list discussion that we try to weed out.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 18:55:15 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050211185515.99187.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. > The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider > community. You don't have the right to spread viruses, or to monopolize other people's network assets. That is not free speech. > > If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly > reduced. > Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise > via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of > assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > > Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and > punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been > handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. More big government solutions. Spam is theft, viruses are vandalism, as well as theft of services. They are property crimes, a matter of common law. A persons right to defend their property against attackers is inviolate. Give them the tools to make it happen. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 19:01:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502110445.j1B4j8s29854@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050211190129.2199.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > I generated all the primes less than a billion > to test the theory. It works. > THis sounds really interesting, Spike. Have you used this theory to predict Mersenne primes? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From brian at posthuman.com Fri Feb 11 19:58:36 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:58:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > we could also have a politics list > if the majority wants it. > I think you should just do it, but if you want a majority then let's have a vote somewhere ASAP. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 20:15:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:15:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211184924.25250.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050211201552.20047.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > But listen to me > > guys, this is GOOD. Discussing politics means that > > we are actually > > starting to discuss how to get there. > > It would be, if the politics were relevant. Part of > the problem is that the politics being discussed were > only barely tangentially related to extropy, if even > that much. As I recall, there were a limited list of political topics being discussed or ranted: a) certain Americans and non-Americans crying about their anti-Americanism and how screwed up America is b) certain extropians talking about islamofascism, its ties to the left in the west, the luddite agenda of both, and what should be done about it. c) certain people crying about the US election Of this list (a) is slightly on-topic because of the present US congressional/presidential agenda re cloning and stem cell research, space exploration, among other topics. However discussion on these topics was a mix of constructive and hand wringing, while the rest was a waste of time. (b) is decidely on topic for the list, luddism being the primary enemy of extropy. (c) is certainly off topic and a waste of time. Trying to avoid politics in an age of implementing extropic concepts is denial. We see this in the current discussion on spam and virus problems online. Solving these problems can be done either with a big government fascist approach like Dirk is advocating, public beheadings included, or a common law propertarian approach like I advocate. It is impossible to discuss extropy in the current day of implementation without involving politics. One reason the government got the drop on us in the 1990's was there was too much nerdy denial of political reality. The assumption that government was as obsolete as the dinosaurs and would wither away was infantile, but it was insistently made by many persons on this list, as well as by Bill Gates and company, who primarily lost their case because they didn't think paying off the right politicians was a good investment. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 20:48:50 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:48:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050211204850.88852.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > And nobody has any idea what people and companies > use spammers? > Don't they actually include some contact details in > their spam, or have > I missed something? Much of the time, the contact info is incorrect - or becomes incorrect by the time one could follow up on it, having been deluged by the taken. The spammer has collected their money (or other info, like credit card numbers) and run. (And then there's ones who never wanted to you to contact them, but just to get something in your inbox - either to "validate" your email address so they could sell it to other spammers, or virus writers who really don't want you knocking on their door.) More patient types, like the Nigerian 419 scam (ironically named for the section of Nigeria's legal code they were breaking: the authorities were well aware of the problem, but apparently did not do a good enough job of cracking down on it) and others who try to draw high-value targets in, can be caught. But just from my own inbox, this does not seem to account for a large portion of the spam. > I suggest that such countries be made to take these > problems seriously. > Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within > nations that fail to > implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good > way to start. The problem with embargos like that is, the world got along just fine before the Internet. Select backwards countries can continue to get along without it; many of their lower class literally won't ever know what they're missing. Pressure to change does not mount; they simply mostly do without, while the rich find ways to get around the embargo. From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 20:51:13 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Determining if a majority wants a separate politics list In-Reply-To: <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20050211205113.89451.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > we could also have a politics list > > if the majority wants it. > > I think you should just do it, but if you want a > majority then let's > have a vote somewhere ASAP. On the list, or sent to a list admin (to avoid cluttering up the list with traffic from the vote itself)? And, how long of a deadline do we want to give? A month would probably be too long, but not everyone is present on the list every day, so maybe a week or two? From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Feb 11 22:01:21 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:01:21 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2005, at 5:06 AM, Greg Burch wrote: > b > > Thinking back on the world we imagined being implemented with > AnarchoCyphertopian(c) technologies, it seems in hindsight there were > two phenomena that we didn't foresee with enough clarity -- terrorism > and spam. And they seem like they are related in an important way. > They are both examples of a class of users of such technology that > have no consideration for secondary values; they sacrifice everything > else to achieve just one aim that is all-important to them and that > are complete spoilers for all other members of the user community. I > like the sound of what you've written -- "agoric throttling" -- is > that your term, Eugen? At any rate, it seems here in this after-age > of 2005 that the problem of the "totalistic user," the user willing to > burn the community to achieve a single goal, has to be solved. > > Offhand i don't see why spam is a show stopper for these technologies. What did you have in mind? Re terrorism and other incarnations of the four horsemen, I don't see that trading freedom, privacy and/or even having some wonderfully useful tech for a bit of mostly illusory security against people doing bad things using the system is a good decision. Almost everything useful can be used for evil purposes as well as good or neutral. Would you say more on what you believe needs to be solved and the tradeoffs involved? - samantha From dirk at neopax.com Fri Feb 11 22:02:56 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:02:56 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211204850.88852.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050211204850.88852.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420D2B90.4090208@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>And nobody has any idea what people and companies >>use spammers? >>Don't they actually include some contact details in >>their spam, or have >>I missed something? >> >> > >Much of the time, the contact info is incorrect - or >becomes incorrect by the time one could follow up on >it, having been deluged by the taken. The spammer has >collected their money (or other info, like credit card >numbers) and run. (And then there's ones who never >wanted to you to contact them, but just to get >something in your inbox - either to "validate" your >email address so they could sell it to other spammers, >or virus writers who really don't want you knocking on >their door.) > > > If Joe Punter can contact them, or at least enough to make it worth their while, so can law enforcement. However, this only becomes worthwhile if the penalties are sufficiently severe to justify the resources. >>I suggest that such countries be made to take these >>problems seriously. >>Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within >>nations that fail to >>implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good >>way to start. >> >> > >The problem with embargos like that is, the world got >along just fine before the Internet. Select backwards >countries can continue to get along without it; many >of their lower class literally won't ever know what >they're missing. Pressure to change does not mount; >they simply mostly do without, while the rich find >ways to get around the embargo. > > Well, it seemed to hurt some Asian countries sufficiently that they began to take it seriously. The amount of spam in my mailbox with Chinese character sets has fallen dramatically. All this is quite feasible. All that is lacking is political will. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 From kevin at kevinfreels.com Fri Feb 11 22:10:59 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:10:59 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) References: <20050211185515.99187.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c51086$91622e80$0100a8c0@kevin> I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never recall anyone referring to physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is SPAM any different? Is it simply a matter of volume or is there a larger reason you would call it such? Personally I think I have spent more time reading about spam and dealing with getting my mail through overzealous spam filters than I actually spend deleting spam. I cen selectively delete a day's worth of spam in less time than it takes for me to walk to my mailbox and back. Why do so many people put so much time and energy into defeating it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) > > --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > > And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. > > The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider > > community. > > You don't have the right to spread viruses, or to monopolize other > people's network assets. That is not free speech. > > > > > If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly > > reduced. > > Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise > > via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of > > assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > > > > Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and > > punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been > > handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. > > More big government solutions. > > Spam is theft, viruses are vandalism, as well as theft of services. > They are property crimes, a matter of common law. A persons right to > defend their property against attackers is inviolate. Give them the > tools to make it happen. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 22:12:17 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211201552.20047.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050211221217.85004.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Of this list (a) is slightly on-topic because of the > present US > congressional/presidential agenda re cloning and > stem cell research, > space exploration, among other topics. However > discussion on these > topics was a mix of constructive and hand wringing, > while the rest was > a waste of time. > (b) is decidely on topic for the list, luddism being > the primary enemy > of extropy. > (c) is certainly off topic and a waste of time. You're right. I wasn't including (b) in "politics", but on review I suppose there isn't a much better category for that. > The assumption that government > was as obsolete as > the dinosaurs and would wither away was infantile, > but it was > insistently made by many persons on this list, as > well as by Bill Gates > and company, who primarily lost their case because > they didn't think > paying off the right politicians was a good > investment. True. Which brings up a side point: what benefits of extropy could usefully be pointed out to politicians, that they would take as being "paid off" if our goals succeed? For instance, might certain US Representatives and Senators be brought on board the life extension advocacy not by any promises of what it will do for the people, but by the prospect of significantly extending and enhancing their own lives? ("Wither and die at 85? No, no, no. We'd much rather you live to 150 or longer, and be healthy enough to enjoy every single year of it! What would you do with that time? The answer's up to you of course, but if you wanted to spend a few more years in Congress, nature would no longer deny you that chance - again, if you wanted it. The voters would be another story, but so long as you serve your constituents well enough...") From hal at finney.org Fri Feb 11 22:43:44 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:43:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Help with demo Message-ID: <20050211224344.4114557EE6@finney.org> Speaking of cypherpunkly technologies, I was wondering if people on this list could give me some help with a demo I am giving this afternoon (Friday afternoon U.S. Pacific time). I am giving a talk at CodeCon, www.codecon.org, on a system I have called RPOW, described at rpow.net. It's sort of a play-money form of digital cash. One of the things I have done to demo a possible use is to make a patched version of BitTorrent, the widely used file sharing program, that exchanges RPOW data objects in order to reward people for uploading and seeding files. In exchange, people with RPOWs can get priority on future downloads, so by seeding today you can get a better download tomorrow. That's the concept, although at this point it is just an experiment. What I need is to have a dozen or so people doing regular BitTorrent downloads of a file I will offer during the demo, which will be at about 5 PM Pacific Standard Time, 8 PM EST, 1 AM GMT. That's 2 1/2 hours from now. You don't need to use any special RPOW software, just the regular BitTorrent client. If you have a BitTorrent client and know how to use it, could you start up and leave running a download of the following .torrent file: http://www.finney.org/~hal/ArkyMovie.mpg.torrent This is fully legal, it's just a home movie of my dog Arky playing on the beach with his brother. Nothing will happen when the download until I start the demo at about 5. But if you could start up your BitTorrent client before then and just leave it running, it would be a big help for me. If you are able to do this, please send me an email when you start up your BT client, at hal at finney.org. If you've never used BT, don't bother to try downloading and figuring it out. I only really need a minimum of 4 or 5 people doing it, but as I said a dozen or more would be great. Sorry about the last minute notice, but I wasn't sure about how the network would be set up at the venue, and it turns out that I need people from outside the building to do the BT downloads. So thanks in advance to anyone who is able to participate. Hal From gregburch at gregburch.net Fri Feb 11 22:53:02 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:02 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Samantha Atkins > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:01 PM > > > Offhand i don't see why spam is a show stopper for these technologies. > What did you have in mind? I've seen figures recently indicating that spam has become a significant portion of all net traffic. Bandwidth costs money and the greater the volume of spam, the greater the cost of bandwidth. Furthermore, spam is simply like litter -- it's an eyesore and corrosive of community value. It's not a show-stopper, but it's rising to the level of a social problem. I remember the highway culture of America in the 1960s. Most people didn't think twice about tossing small bits of trash out of their car windows. It was a little act of externality that didn't have a set of potent social norms to correct. Had this social norm not been changed, we'd be choked on garbage along our roads by now. But it did change. A combination of diligent public communication and the passage of a few laws with relatively light enforcement has largely changed American society's behavior toward road litter in most areas. These days it's pretty rare to see anyone toss a piece of trash out of their car and our roadways are amazingly clean, given the level of traffic on them. Spam is similar to raod litter in some ways -- it's effect on the value of a public good. But spam is different in its source; most net users aren't spammers and it's not a problem where a slight change in the behavior of the majority of the population will fix the problem. ... I'm not suggesting a solution in the above -- just musing. > Re terrorism and other incarnations of the four horsemen, I don't see > that trading freedom, privacy and/or even having some wonderfully > useful tech for a bit of mostly illusory security against people doing > bad things using the system is a good decision. Almost everything > useful can be used for evil purposes as well as good or neutral. > > Would you say more on what you believe needs to be solved and the > tradeoffs involved? One of the key elements of the modern salafist Islamic terrorist movement is its use of the internet for recruiting, and for organizing and publicizing its activities. Without the internet, it would be almost impossible to carry out a global terrorist plan. I remember that the paradigmatic "nefarious user" hypothetical pre-911 was almost always centered around a contract hitman. I'm not suggesting that the use of the net by Islamic terrorists justifies destroying privacy or other key elements of the foundational values of the old Cypherpunks community, by any means. I'm just saying that the negatives are greater than were imagined by most people before 911. GB From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 11 23:25:45 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:25:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <000f01c51086$91622e80$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050211232545.5093.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never > recall anyone referring to > physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is > SPAM any different? Because the recipient pays to receive spam. Physical mailboxes can hold large amounts of mail, and the sender has to (literally) pay the postage. In contrast, email is nominally free, but inboxes are sometimes too small to contain large messages - and when it's not, the expense of providing large disks to store all the junk (until it's IDed as junk and deleted), or of providing (often developing) good enough spam deletion tools that they can be trusted to delete stuff without storing it for human review, falls squarely on the recipient's ISP (and thus usually on the recipient). It's the same reason why telemarketing calls to cell phones are flat-out illegal: recipient pays to be marketed to. (Which might be okay in many cases if there was usually a very good match to the recipient's interests, but in practice, there is almost never a good match according to the recipient.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Feb 12 00:06:00 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:06:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] salafist Islamic terrorist movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050211180433.01bc5a00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:53 PM 2/11/2005 -0600, Greg Burch again mentioned: >the modern salafist Islamic terrorist movement For anyone who's never heard of them, here's a handy essay: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/special/sala.html Damien Broderick From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 00:12:54 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:12:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Politics was Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211063728.03296258@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050212001254.33153.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > I would like to see a extropy-chat-politics list. > I'd also like to see > transhumanists discussing world future issues and > politics away from the > standard libertarian and social democrat soap-boxes. ... > On this list, I'd like to see ideas developed, > discussed and debated. Now, > with all that said, does anyone have a topic that > will enrich our thinking > and understanding of how the heck we are going to > realize our extropic future? My two cents: Politics is to society what technology is to physical reality. Technology is clever construction of matter/energy that exploits natural law to control the physical world. Politics similarly is a tool that utilizes the action of a clever construction of ideas (a platform) to harness secular law to manipulate the social status quo. Being that this is how I view politics, I would have to vote that we should NOT have a separate list for politics. I think that a separate list would not be in our best interest because: A. Force us to spend yet more time managing incoming information flow for fear that a particulally valuable political insight might fall through the cracks. B. Hamper cross-talk between the artists, scientists, technophiles and social engineers and serve to further fragment our already diverse and heavilly factionalized group. So why don't we just agree to put the word [Politics] in the subject heading of our soap boxing posts and get on with life? That being said, I agree that gloating or whining about what the politicans already in power are doing without some recommended remedy or action step is pointless. So is vehemently campaigning for the mainstream candidate that in the convoluted recesses of ones own mind is the marginally lesser of two evils. This is because, in case anyone hasn't noticed, the ruling class in the United States now firmly straddles both political parties. Bush and Kerry were so similar because they answer to the same group of people. They were in the very same secret fraternity (Skull and Bones) at the very same Ivy League university (Yale) wherein they bonded with the same initiation rites and swore their loyalty to the same set of ideals and the people that hold them. The ruling class does not truly care who is in power, so long as that person is their tool, anymore than Exxon cares if you drive a Ford or a Chevy. Much more fruitful would be to assemble our own political platform based on issues that are of vital interest to extropic transhumanists. Then we would need to recruit from other parties, or produce from our own ranks politicians that would best serve our interests and publicise the hell out of them. Note that this is not possible without obscene amounts of money... but you would think that there would be billionaires out there that like the concept of mining asteroids and living to 200 years old. If I were in charge of ExI, I would be I would be trying harder to win over the Ross Perot types. ===== The Avantguardian "The penis mightier than the sword." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 00:17:50 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:17:50 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> Message-ID: <200502120018.j1C0Hxs02375@tick.javien.com> > Dirk Bruere ... > And nobody has any idea what people and companies use spammers? > Don't they actually include some contact details in their spam, or have > I missed something? ... Few of them make it that easy for countermeasures. If the spammers actually supply *any* contact info, even a non-toll-free number, we proles could slam it using our left over free telephone minutes at the end of the month. Any e-mail @ in spam would be crammed with phony orders. Any snail mail @ in spam would likely be a dangerous place to live for some time after. Consider the Got Milk ad campaign. It is the first of its kind that I recall: advertise the product without regard to brand name, paid for by a coalition of producers. The notion then is that all producers will profit by increased sales of that product, in this case milk. Regardless of what we do, we will still likely get slammed by Got Milk type spam, which doesn't require any contact details. What has puzzled me is that the jesus-is-coming crowd never figured out the use of spam, or haven't used it as far as I know. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 00:55:34 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:55:34 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050211232545.5093.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> > --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > > I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never > > recall anyone referring to > > physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is > > SPAM any different? Spam has stolen something from us that many extropians are likely completely unaware. Since we tend to be techno-geeks and all our friends and acquaintances often are techno-geeky, we keep our computers going thru the spam deluge. We set up our firewalls and filters, we do what it takes. However. Do you have friends and acquaintances who once used the internet but fell away? I do: I have an antique motorcycle club that specializes in a particular bike in which I (and several others independently) discovered a design flaw which could cause the rear wheel to lock up suddenly. We know of at least two fatalities, plus a number of injuries. My mission was to find all the people that had these bikes and warn them, then teach them how to fix the problem. By email of course. But many, if not most, of that community are not computer geeks, but rather just use it as a communications tool. In the past couple years, many bikers got so frustrated with the virus storm and spam flood, they finally tossed in the towel. The computer went into the trash can. It was a bigger and more difficult job to keep the computer running than to keep the old bike going (which is a lot). If I can't contact these people by email, I can't contact them. Other than sending out christmas cards, when is the last time you took out a piece of paper and wrote to an old friend who has no email? Can you even remember? Me neither. My youngest postage stamps are from three price increases ago. We stopped using that form of communication a decade ago. Im not totally sure I even know how to use a pen anymore, and I conjecture that some of the younger people here never even learned how. Consequently, when an old friend unplugs her internet/email connection, she is effectively gone, in another parallel universe, missing in action, no practical communication possible, and pretty soon she isn't that close a friend anymore. Spam and virii have taken her away from us. But here's the point: you didn't even realize that we had a mass exodus from email in the past couple years. Your friends and acquaintances kept their machines going. A lot of mine didn't. spike From dgc at cox.net Sat Feb 12 01:43:51 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:43:51 -0500 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <420D5F57.4060300@cox.net> spike wrote: > >Other than sending out christmas cards, when is >the last time you took out a piece of paper and >wrote to an old friend who has no email? Can >you even remember? Me neither. My youngest >postage stamps are from three price increases >ago. We stopped using that form of communication >a decade ago. Im not totally sure I even know how >to use a pen anymore, and I conjecture that some >of the younger people here never even learned how. >Consequently, when an old friend unplugs her >internet/email connection, she is effectively gone, >in another parallel universe, missing in action, no >practical communication possible, and pretty soon >she isn't that close a friend anymore. Spam and >virii have taken her away from us. > >But here's the point: you didn't even realize that >we had a mass exodus from email in the past couple >years. Your friends and acquaintances kept their >machines going. A lot of mine didn't. > >spike > > Actually, there is a third alternative. Many of these people use Fax, by golly. Strange. I use an email-to/from Fax system instead of a fax machine just so I can communicate with yes-fax/no e-mail people. I actually got the account as part of setting up a purely virtual corporation. It was an interesting experience, overall, I think I'll post a message about it. Anyway, A real fax machine is a bit of a pain to work with, but a fax gateway is just a slightly weird form of e-mail that is legally protected from spam. From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 02:02:49 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:02:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050211190129.2199.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> > --- spike wrote: > > > > I generated all the primes less than a billion > > to test the theory. It works. > > > THis sounds really interesting, Spike. Have you used this theory to > predict Mersenne primes? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey No, wouldn't work Mike. The GIMPS project is searching up in the 8 million decimal digit range. The probability that the leading digit of a prime that size is very nearly equal across the spectrum. Take 9E8000000 over the natural log of 9E8000000, subtract 8E8000000 over ln(8E8000000), then divide by the difference of (2E8E6 over ln(2E8E6) minus 1E8E6 over ln(1E8E6)), you will see that the excess probability of the leading digit being 9 versus a 1 is about one part in 50 million. For the next digit over, the excess probability is about one part in about 500 million. That example I gave before of about an 11 percent greater chance of a leading digit 9 than leading digit 1 is for numbers of magnitude around 10 million, such as one might see in a lottery. Consider this: suppose someone had a clear plastic globe filled with numbered ping pong balls, like they use in the lottery, except that instead of the customary 49 numbered balls, the globe contains a billion balls. (This plastic globe is the size of a football stadium). Air is blown up thru the balls, causing them to dance about, and a ball is selected at random by a vacuum cleaner hose inserted thru a hole in the globe. A ball is selected, the number is tested for primeness. If composite, the ball is tossed back and a new ball is selected, but if prime the ball is retained. About 95% of the balls are tossed back. The game is to guess the leading digit. If one is aware of the n/ln(n) trick, one would guess 1 every time (We disallow leading zeros for sake of argument), leading to an anomalous 8.81 percent higher than expected win rate compared someone who liked 9 and always picked that number. The next post on this topic is about what all this has to do with psi, uploading, evolution, extropy and everything like that. I had a blinding flash, a mind-blowing epiphany while doing these calcs. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Feb 12 02:17:56 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:17:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies In-Reply-To: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, spike wrote: > Spam has stolen something from us that many > extropians are likely completely unaware. Since > we tend to be techno-geeks and all our friends > and acquaintances often are techno-geeky, we > keep our computers going thru the spam > deluge. We set up our firewalls and filters, > we do what it takes. > > However. > > Do you have friends and acquaintances who once > used the internet but fell away? > [...] > > Consequently, when an old friend unplugs her > internet/email connection, she is effectively gone, > in another parallel universe, missing in action, no > practical communication possible, and pretty soon > she isn't that close a friend anymore. Spam and > virii have taken her away from us. Hm. I *do* know people who are using their computers (old ones, now) as typewriters only - they gave up on the net and email because of spam, virus troubles, and porn their kids would find online. And some of my friends *have* disappeared - but I hadn't thought it might be that they stopped using computers. You're quite right about parallel universes - indeed those would be. I have letter paper and cards that people have given me over the years, and other than gift enclosures or birthday cards, I don't know how on earth I'll use those things up! It's pretty sad. Regards, MB > > But here's the point: you didn't even realize that > we had a mass exodus from email in the past couple > years. Your friends and acquaintances kept their > machines going. A lot of mine didn't. From dgc at cox.net Sat Feb 12 02:47:13 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:47:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies In-Reply-To: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <420D6E31.7080405@cox.net> You can very nearly exist on completely on the Internet. I got laid off from a dying core router startup in February '04. Instead of looking for a job, I spent March-July trying to start a company. I gave up, but in the process, I learned how to create a virtual company. This turned out to be massively simpler, cheaper, and faster than the last time I started a company back in 1983, even though a credible company needs more presence today than it did back then. For fun, I decided from the outset to use free software unless there was a compelling business reason to do otherwise, and to virtualize rather than capitalize. It was an interesting experience, and setting up the company was inexpensive. For a legitimate-looking business card, you need the following: Company name Your name your title business address email address URL phone number Fax number and of course the business card itself. Name: Crystre corporation. Rather than pay for a trademark search, I did a set of Google search until I found a name I liked that had no Google hits. Phone number: My very own toll-free phone number and human answering service. found on the web and comparison shopped in less than one hour. Fax Number: My very own toll-free fax-to/from e-mail gateway, found on the web and comparison shopped in less than 30 minutes My name (from my parents, but take your choice.) My title: Pick one. Email: This is slightly more complex. I decided that I wanted serious control of my web presence, but for cheap. I elected to rent a virtual server to which I have root access and complete control. I then installed a web server and a mail server. URL: I shopped around on the web for a name registrar, and registered five domain names: crystre.com, .org, .biz., .info. and ,net. I found a free DNS service and pointed the domains at my virtual server. Business address: I found the nearest UPS store on the web. Business card: searched the web, found a small-volume printer with a web interface, designed a card on my Linux machine using Gimp, and sent them the image. Incorporation: searched the web for help. found multiple incorporation services, picked one, filled in the forms on the web. Accounting: Do not even think about starting a business unless you have accounting training or you are willing to pay a competent accountant. Pick an accountant you trust, and do what your accountant tells you to do. In my case, I've done it before and I have a friend who is a CPA and likes to help new starts. He is retired and a Windows guy, but was willing to work with me "for fun" and experimented. I installed SQLedger. (open source) Banking: Web bank. Corporate credit card: Web. Billing for all of the above: I started using my personal credit card with automatic (web) billing. After I activated the corporate credit card I shifted the accounts to it, still with automatic billing. Conclusion. The web has radically simplified the creation of a Corporation, even as it raised the expectations of the people the corporation must interact with. A Corporation is a "legal person" so in some sense I was creating a new "life form." Lessons learned: If I were to try this again, I would do a few things differently: First, the incorporator did not add a lot of value. Having done this once, I now know how to incorporate without help by finding the correct forms, etc., on the state government sites. I would use a different domain name service. the one I picked is horrible. I have abandoned my answering service. It was the largest monthly expense, and it was awkward. I have shifted to a Vonage account with voice mail. This choice depends critically on what your customers expect. I would now re-examine the combined "office presence" companies with a view to finding one that provides fax, phone answering, and physical mail forwarding. My running costs are below $100.00 per month. Why is this Extropian??! two reasons: practical and theoretical. Practical: You might want to create a company. It's not hard any more. Theoretical: I created a new legal person with considerable power. Although I've nearly abandoned it, it lives on in a manner that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. With a tiny bit more effort this corporate person would be a lot more active, with e-mail responders, blogs, wikis, etc. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 04:00:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:00:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211221217.85004.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050212040017.41878.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote:> > True. Which brings up a side point: what benefits of > extropy could usefully be pointed out to politicians, > that they would take as being "paid off" if our goals > succeed? For instance, might certain US > Representatives and Senators be brought on board the > life extension advocacy not by any promises of what it > will do for the people, but by the prospect of > significantly extending and enhancing their own lives? Yes, I am sure each of them dreams of being in office as long as Strom Thurmond, while still being able to chase the pages around the office... ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 04:16:58 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050212041659.34015.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > The game is to guess the leading digit. > > If one is aware of the n/ln(n) trick, one would guess > 1 every time (We disallow leading zeros for sake of argument), > leading to an anomalous 8.81 percent higher than expected > win rate compared someone who liked 9 and always picked that > number. Well, then this is useful. I've looked at return on risk for lotteries. I typically will buy a ticket when I see that the cash jackpot amount, in dollars, has exceeded the odds ($70 million for odds of 1 in 70 million). I don't adjust for taxes because I already have a strategy for dealing with those that is entirely legal avoidance (involving having an offshore trust cash the ticket, since a lotto ticket is a bearer instrument). When the return on risk (cash value : odds) exceeds 1:1, it becomes an investment grade risk, is no longer truly gambling. Whatever one can do to improve that 1:1 ratio increases the value of the ticket. >From what I hear you saying, if I limited my numbers to 1, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, ...19 I would be increasing my odds by 8.81%? Is this correct? > > The next post on this topic is about what all this has to > do with psi, uploading, evolution, extropy and everything > like that. I had a blinding flash, a mind-blowing epiphany > while doing these calcs. That sounds like something for another spike essay. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 04:40:41 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:40:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> > > The next post on this topic is about what all this has to > do with psi, uploading, evolution, extropy and everything > like that. I had a blinding flash, a mind-blowing epiphany > while doing these calcs. > > spike OK here it is, the epiphany. Step 1: Any mechanical device which is used to generate random numbers has inherent (if slight) bias. A slot machine has small imbalances in the wheels, a gaming die is slightly heavier on one side than another, the ping pong balls in the lottery machine are not all exactly the same weight or perfectly identical ballistic coefficient. Step 2: With sufficient knowledge of the mechanical system, one could theoretically guess the outcome of a stochastic process better (even if only slightly better) than random guessing would be expected to produce. Step 3: Every computer is a mechanical device. Every attempt to generate random numbers, regardless of how clever the algorithm, will produce results slightly nonrandom, for even the best piezoelectric timing crystals produce pulses that are not *exactly* equal. Given sufficient knowledge of that computer, the contents of the memory locations and the algorithm, it would be theoretically possible to slightly outguess the law of averages. Step 4: Someone (Hanson?) has suggested that we must be living in a simulation, if it is possible to exist in a simulation. At least one esteemed extropian (Yudkowsky) is convinced that we can theoretically exist as uploads, and is working to create this outcome. Step 5: I find this line of reasoning very compelling: If for some reason we cannot in principle exist as uploads, then all is lost anyway, we are all dead. If we can, even in theory, exist as uploads, then someone somewhere and somewhen in the universe has already done so, for the big bang was a long time ago, the universe is ancient, but humanity, which appears within centuries or possibly just decades of uploading, is recent. Step 6: If someone somewhere and somewhen created a machine capable of simulating sentience, then the natural thing to do would be to wander about the universe looking for perishable sentience to upload before it expires. I conclude with Hanson (?) that we must be living in a simulation, if it is possible at all to do so. Step 7: If we exist in a simulation as uploads, that sim must be running on some meta-mechanical device of some unimaginable sort, one that cannot, in principle, produce *perfectly* random stochastic processes. Even meta-mechanical devices are mechanical devices still. Step 8: The term psi is given to a class of unexplained phenomena that deals with deviations (even very slight) from the law of averages in stochastic processes. We would not necessarily need to understand psi in order to observe it. Note that this is not necessarily Damien's definition of psi, but rather a more general use of the term. Step 9: As with the n/ln(n) trick that I used to predict leading digits of primes, there may be hidden tricks in stochastic processes that we currently know not. A random number generating algorithm often uses the contents of the machine's memory locations as a seed, which is then loaded with the resulting "random" number. If viewed from a simulated being within the computer, this process might appear as a curious self-referential paradox. Under the assumption of unknown stochastic tricks and an algorithm of some sort running on a meta-computer, the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanics, that an observer can somehow effect the quantity being observed, suddenly seems less paradoxical. Step 10. Given sufficient knowledge of the meta-device upon which we could exist, it would in theory be possible to predict the outcome of a stochastic process better than would be expected from the law of averages. This is getting me nervously close to saying that psi could be real somehow, even if not at all understood. Perhaps the effects are too slight to observe with current techniques, or perhaps the effect defines, by design, the limits of observability. I may need to fill in some gaps in this line of reasoning, but it reduces to something like: If uploading is possible, then psi exists. If uploading is not possible, then we are all dead. Bumper sticker version: psi or die. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Feb 12 05:20:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:20:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050211231606.01979eb8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:40 PM 2/11/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: >Step 10. Given sufficient knowledge of the meta-device >upon which we could exist, it would in theory be possible to >predict the outcome of a stochastic process better than >would be expected from the law of averages. This is >getting me nervously close to saying that psi could be >real somehow, even if not at all understood. Perhaps the >effects are too slight to observe with current techniques, >or perhaps the effect defines, by design, the limits of >observability. Not psi, precognition, and only for a certain class of stochastic events (such as the lotteries you mention). This model doesn't seem to help with such purported phenomena as telepathy or anomalous kinetic effects correlated with physically-unmediated intention (phew). If we're in a simulation and have some marginal access to its meta-device programming and processing, perhaps these are also explicable via the, um, cracks in the cosmic egg. But not directly from the Jones Effect, I think. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Feb 12 05:25:03 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:25:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <1108071539.2674.1257.camel@localhost> References: <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> <420AA282.E9B44ADF@mindspring.com> <420AB096.3020406@cox.net> <5366105b050209181543c01ef5@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520502100626433a1c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050212001129.033bb7f0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 04:38 PM 10/02/05 -0500, Fred wrote: >I fondly remember the list as it was in its beginning. Hi Fred. It was an interesting list. There were a fair number of new ideas that may have seen their early spread on that list. >My memory >(admittedly imperfect) of some of the differences between then and now: >1. Virtually everyone who posted a message on a topic knew what they >were talking about. If someone did not know about something then they >would ask for a reference. Argument by assertion and blustering >bullsh1t were rare. They did happen, but when they did the people who did so were usually slapped down quickly. >2. At the very beginning the volume was not very high but the quality >was very good. There were not a lot of time wasting posts which quoted >an entire message with only a lame one line followup. >3. A corollary to #1 and #2 is that there were people who would read a >lot and not post on every topic which came along. >4. People could read and comprehend what was written. There was a lot >less of the reply messages starting "Oh, you mean ..." followed by some >bogus nonsense which was not even close to the original message. I remember being involved in some extended discussions. >5. Virtually everyone on the list was well versed in and committed to >individual liberty and an improved future. They generally had a good >understanding of a wide range of topics from free-market economics to >pan-critical rationalism to technology and science. >6. Many of the people who posted in the first few years dropped off for >a variety of reasons. I see some of them socially and occasionally on >other lists, they are still around. There was some good stuff on that list. There were also restrictions about how the material could be shared, but those restrictions didn't apply to the people who were on the list. A lot of what was discussed on that list eventually made it into Extropian/Transhumanist web pages. I kind of wonder if anyone has the list traffic in backups? I found while sorting out old files that I had some of it. Tim May probably has it all on some backup media. Any of you old timers want to attempt to reconstruct the list traffic? I can contribute some. Keith Henson >Fred > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Feb 12 05:41:37 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:41:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211184924.25250.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050212003127.033c54f0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 10:49 AM 11/02/05 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > But listen to me > > guys, this is GOOD. Discussing politics means that > > we are actually > > starting to discuss how to get there. > >It would be, if the politics were relevant. Part of >the problem is that the politics being discussed were >only barely tangentially related to extropy, if even >that much. Correct. Example: Politics, stupid politics, has badly hurt stem cell research in the US. Does that stop stem cell research? No, it just moves to places like Korea. snip (about politics) However, I would argue that a meta discussion of politics as it emerges from human evolutionary psychology might be on topic. In recent years this has become my main interest. How much of evolved human psychological traits we want to take with us into the deep future is an interesting question. As well as getting a feel for the psychological traits leading to wars. I am not saying Extropians would universally want to stay out of wars, but knowing where they are going to happen is useful for both being in wars and staying out. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Feb 12 05:46:30 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:46:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <20050211201552.20047.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050211184924.25250.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050212004301.033be1c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:15 PM 11/02/05 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: snip >It is impossible to discuss extropy in the current day of >implementation without involving politics. One reason the government >got the drop on us in the 1990's was there was too much nerdy denial of >political reality. The assumption that government was as obsolete as >the dinosaurs and would wither away was infantile, but it was >insistently made by many persons on this list, as well as by Bill Gates >and company, who primarily lost their case because they didn't think >paying off the right politicians was a good investment. I presume you are not talking about the anti trust case? Because eventually *someone* paid off the right people and Bill still has a monopoly. Keith Henson From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Feb 12 06:42:28 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:42:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050211231606.01979eb8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050211231606.01979eb8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050212003923.01bd4ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> and again, incidentally: >At 08:40 PM 2/11/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: > >>Step 10. Given sufficient knowledge of the meta-device >>upon which we could exist, it would in theory be possible to >>predict the outcome of a stochastic process better than >>would be expected from the law of averages. This is >>getting me nervously close to saying that psi could be >>real somehow, even if not at all understood. The problem here is that (as far as I could determine) there *isn't* any surprising excess of winners en masse in lotteries, and I looked at an awful lot of numbers. So if there's an aperture for precognition there, lottery punters are not using it (or the psi meisters are very few in number and being extremely subtle about it). Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 12 07:24:43 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:24:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050212003923.01bd4ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502120725.j1C7Ops15416@tick.javien.com> > >At 08:40 PM 2/11/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: > > > >>Step 10. Given sufficient knowledge of the meta-device > >>upon which we could exist, it would in theory be possible to > >>predict the outcome of a stochastic process better than > >>would be expected from the law of averages. This is > >>getting me nervously close to saying that psi could be > >>real somehow, even if not at all understood. > > The problem here is that (as far as I could determine) there *isn't* any > surprising excess of winners en masse in lotteries, and I looked at an > awful lot of numbers. So if there's an aperture for precognition there, > lottery punters are not using it (or the psi meisters are very few in > number and being extremely subtle about it). > > Damien Broderick Ja I am not suggesting psi could be used to increase ones odds of winning the lottery, or to reasonably explain precognition or the other things, unless we could somehow figure out a sentience-capable meta-device. I consider this beyond the immediate horizon, far beyond. I am going more towards the notion that quantum weirdness might be evidence of the existence of a meta-simulation in which we might exist. spike From scerir at libero.it Sat Feb 12 09:45:53 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:45:53 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book References: <200502120725.j1C7Ops15416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <00b101c510e7$bcb58670$53bc1b97@administxl09yj> From: "spike" > I am going more towards the notion that quantum weirdness > might be evidence of the existence of a meta-simulation > in which we might exist. John Bell used to say something like the above, talking about the weird correlations between entangled quantum systems (and related 'non-separability' between separated quantum systems, better known as 'non-locality'). (I must say that Bell, being a realist, did not believe, really, in the possibility of a 'simulation', also known as 'super-determinism'). He asked, in example .... A. Are there free variables *in* the overlap of the *backward* light cones of *instruments* testing those correlations between separated quantum systems? .... and also ..... B. Are there free variables *outside* the overlap of the *backward* light cones of *instruments* testing those correlations between separated quantum systems? (Example. Do we believe in the Big-Bang? So, the Big-Bang could be *that* very remote cause, for present weird correlations. From a logical p.o.v.). ... and also .... C. Do observers (of those instruments) have free will? Are they *free* to set their *apparently* random parameters, revealing those weird correlations between quantum systems? ... and then ... D. Are observers and (which is more important) measurement apparata *without* or *within* the physical system to be measured? In other words, is the measurement apparatus measuring *itself*, at least partially, thus causing the weird correlation? Point B, C, D are not the usual 'EPR-loopholes'. Their nature is more logical, or epistemic, than factual. Notice that some of the points above introduce a strong Goedelian issue in the QM picture of the universe. As noticed by Asher Peres, W. Zurek, and by T. Breuer here below http://www.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/tb/ s. "It has been argued that quantum mechanics is not locally causal and cannot be embedded in a locally causal theory. That conclusion depends on treating certain experimental parameters, typically the orientations of polarization filters, as free variables. But it might be that this apparent freedom is illusory. Perhaps experimental parameters and experimental results are both consequences, or partially so, of some common hidden mechanism. Then the apparent non-locality could be simulated." - John Bell, "Free Variables and Local Causality", 'Epistemological Letters', 15, (1977) "That the theory is supposed to apply fundamentally to the world as a whole requires ultimately that 'any' observers be included in the system." - John Bell From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 13:51:11 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050212003923.01bd4ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050212135111.9763.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > and again, incidentally: > > >At 08:40 PM 2/11/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: > > > >>Step 10. Given sufficient knowledge of the meta-device > >>upon which we could exist, it would in theory be possible to > >>predict the outcome of a stochastic process better than > >>would be expected from the law of averages. This is > >>getting me nervously close to saying that psi could be > >>real somehow, even if not at all understood. > > The problem here is that (as far as I could determine) there *isn't* > any surprising excess of winners en masse in lotteries, and I looked > at an awful lot of numbers. So if there's an aperture for > precognition there, lottery punters are not using it (or the psi > meisters are very few in number and being extremely subtle about it). Actually, I think the stats will show that there are an excessive number of individuals who have won multiple lotteries. That there are not more such people I think only speaks to the fact that those who play it the most don't have the capital to play the full range of numbers needed to win more than once in a lifetime. As they say: "if you HAVE to win it, you shouldn't be playing it." ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 12 15:01:32 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:01:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050212090057.03360cf8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 01:58 PM 2/11/2005, Brian wrote: >Natasha Vita-More wrote: >>we could also have a politics list if the majority wants it. > >I think you should just do it, but if you want a majority then let's have >a vote somewhere ASAP. Thanks Brian. Max emailed me and said that we should just do it and I send it along to David. Natasha >-- >Brian Atkins >Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >http://www.singinst.org/ >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 12 15:02:40 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:02:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Determining if a majority wants a separate politics list In-Reply-To: <20050211205113.89451.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> <20050211205113.89451.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050212090204.03360a68@pop-server.austin.rr.com> What are your thoughts about it Adrian? Natasha >On the list, or sent to a list admin (to avoid >cluttering up the list with traffic from the vote >itself)? And, how long of a deadline do we want to >give? A month would probably be too long, but not >everyone is present on the list every day, so maybe a >week or two? >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Feb 12 18:01:01 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Determining if a majority wants a separate politics list In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050212090204.03360a68@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050212180101.95686.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> I didn't want to speak for the admins, but I suspect a private vote (directly to an admin) would be better. And a vote period of two weeks, as described below. Two simple yes/no votes: * Should we have a separate extro-politics list? * If so (else this issue is void), should the admins enforce the policy of moving any overly political discussions, especially those not directly related to extropian goals, to said list? (How exactly, and the specific criteria, can be debated after the vote.) --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > What are your thoughts about it Adrian? > > Natasha > > >On the list, or sent to a list admin (to avoid > >cluttering up the list with traffic from the vote > >itself)? And, how long of a deadline do we want to > >give? A month would probably be too long, but not > >everyone is present on the list every day, so maybe > a > >week or two? > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > Natasha Vita-More > http://www.natasha.cc > [_______________________________________________ > President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > [_____________________________________________________ > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > http://www.transhumanist.biz > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 18:34:33 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:34:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Determining if a majority wants a separate politics list In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050212090204.03360a68@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <420D0E6C.2070907@posthuman.com> <20050211205113.89451.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050212090204.03360a68@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <5366105b050212103440296d2b@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 12 February 2005 Hello all: > On the list, or sent to a list admin (to avoid > cluttering up the list with traffic from the vote Off-list. State how many subscribers the list currently has when reporting the results, and also state how many people voted. > itself)? And, how long of a deadline do we want to > give? A month would probably be too long, but not > everyone is present on the list every day, so maybe a > week or two? Ten days should give enough time for all interested parties to learn about the vote, consider how to vote, and cast a vote. I also suggest making the separate list for politics an experiment. Make a separate list (either by fiat or by vote) for politics for three months. All posts with mainly political character should go there, and anyone on the main list can ask for a thread to move to the separate list. At the end of the trial period, we could vote on whether to continue the separate list for another limited period, reintegrate it with the main list, or make the separate list permanent. -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Feb 12 20:55:12 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:55:12 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Message-ID: Do we really need more outrageous ways to throw lives away? a kid runs a script and he or his parents become wards of the state for life? Someone does the ultimate mass advertising and loses their life? How is this remotely just? Isn't it enough and much too much that the US has more of its people in prison than any country on earth? The evidence also does not look good that such outrageous deterrents would work even if you ignore the other problems. - samantha On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Dirk Bruere wrote: >>> > rAnd then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. > The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider > community. > > If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly > reduced. > Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise > via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of > assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and > punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been > handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10/02/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Feb 12 21:11:02 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:11:02 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> Message-ID: <7fb20747c739585c983693e8864af597@mac.com> On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:42 AM, Dirk Bruere wrote: > That *is* the 'wider community'. > >> You can't solve people-domain problems with technology as long that >> technology doesn't have an intrinsic sufficient incitement, or its >> absence sufficiently penalized. You can't make people think and act. >> >>> If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly >>> reduced. >>> >> >> Great! Crack down on Microsoft, mandate use of hardened, secure >> systems. Both spam and virus problem almost instantly almost >> completely disappears. >> >> > If it works, fine. if the unintended consequences are worse or you run over rights ni the process then it doesn't "work". > >>> Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both >>> advertise via >> >> Great! Lets make money flow realtime inspectable and controlled... >> er... perhaps not. >> >> > And nobody has any idea what people and companies use spammers? > Don't they actually include some contact details in their spam, or > have I missed something? It would not be that difficult to hide the ultimate money recipients from any particular bit of spam. > I suggest that such countries be made to take these problems seriously. > Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within nations that fail > to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good way to start. Severing the digital nervous system of a country to force compliance with foreign dictates is a clear act of war. What a brilliant solution! > >>> Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and >> >> A terrorist jaywalker crossed the street before me today. I blew him >> away >> with my bazooka. That will teach'em, them terrorists jaywalkers. I >> intend to >> start on parking violation terrorists and overdressing terrorists, >> next. >> >> Killin' is too good for them. >> >> > No, killin' is exactly good enough. > I rather like the Chinese way of doing things. > The bill for the bullet can be sent to the virus writers family. You are seriously in need of help. From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Feb 12 21:53:39 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:53:39 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <000f01c51086$91622e80$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050211185515.99187.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000f01c51086$91622e80$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: This is a valid question. We seriously overbuilt bandwidth in the 90s. So that a large percentage of current traffic is spam may not be as scary as it at first looks. My spam filters are very efficient currently. i only have to hand sort about a dozen messages a day. If this was true of more people the profitability would decrease. On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:10 PM, kevinfreels.com wrote: > I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never recall anyone > referring to > physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is SPAM any different? > Is it > simply a matter of volume or is there a larger reason you would call it > such? Personally I think I have spent more time reading about spam and > dealing with getting my mail through overzealous spam filters than I > actually spend deleting spam. I cen selectively delete a day's worth > of spam > in less time than it takes for me to walk to my mailbox and back. Why > do so > many people put so much time and energy into defeating it? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Lorrey" > To: ; "ExI chat list" > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: > [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) > > >> >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >>> >>> And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. >>> The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the wider >>> community. >> >> You don't have the right to spread viruses, or to monopolize other >> people's network assets. That is not free speech. >> >>> >>> If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly >>> reduced. >>> Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise >>> via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of >>> assets and lengthy jail time for a start. >>> >>> Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and >>> punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been >>> handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. >> >> More big government solutions. >> >> Spam is theft, viruses are vandalism, as well as theft of services. >> They are property crimes, a matter of common law. A persons right to >> defend their property against attackers is inviolate. Give them the >> tools to make it happen. >> >> ===== >> Mike Lorrey >> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Feb 12 22:10:56 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:10:56 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57e5b52443e7a4c7625b10813f2561e2@mac.com> On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Greg Burch wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Samantha Atkins >> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:01 PM >> >> >> Offhand i don't see why spam is a show stopper for these technologies. >> What did you have in mind? > > I've seen figures recently indicating that spam has become a > significant portion of all net traffic. Bandwidth costs money and the > greater the volume of spam, the greater the cost of bandwidth. > Furthermore, spam is simply like litter -- it's an eyesore and > corrosive of community value. It's not a show-stopper, but it's > rising to the level of a social problem. But we have a huge glut of bandwidth (although not the last mile). > > Spam is similar to raod litter in some ways -- it's effect on the > value of a public good. But spam is different in its source; most net > users aren't spammers and it's not a problem where a slight change in > the behavior of the majority of the population will fix the problem. Perhaps if a significant number refused to respond to spam it could help. > > ... I'm not suggesting a solution in the above -- just musing. > >> Re terrorism and other incarnations of the four horsemen, I don't see >> that trading freedom, privacy and/or even having some wonderfully >> useful tech for a bit of mostly illusory security against people doing >> bad things using the system is a good decision. Almost everything >> useful can be used for evil purposes as well as good or neutral. >> >> Would you say more on what you believe needs to be solved and the >> tradeoffs involved? > > One of the key elements of the modern salafist Islamic terrorist > movement is its use of the internet for recruiting, and for organizing > and publicizing its activities. Without the internet, it would be > almost impossible to carry out a global terrorist plan. I remember > that the paradigmatic "nefarious user" hypothetical pre-911 was almost > always centered around a contract hitman. I'm not suggesting that the > use of the net by Islamic terrorists justifies destroying privacy or > other key elements of the foundational values of the old Cypherpunks > community, by any means. I'm just saying that the negatives are > greater than were imagined by most people before 911. > The old underground cell system was pretty effective even without modern communication conveniences like the Net. Technology multiplies and accelerates everything that can be done or done easier using it. This is no surprise around these parts surely. The unexpected part of 911 wasn't that they used what technology was available. What tech they did use wasn't all that advanced. - samantha From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 12 22:30:59 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:30:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Silicon Valley pod villages? In-Reply-To: <20050208055254.14322.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050207211514.028dd6a8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050208055254.14322.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050212142702.028867b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Oh, Snow Crash.... Prices in valley too low, plus transport system is auto based, no reasonable bus or commuter trains. Try again in 15 years. Also, local building code probably can't distinguish between pod hotels and homeless encampments. If you can put up with the commute, a tarp, sleeping bag and remote redwood tree works fine. Bit wet, but so what? At 09:52 PM 2/7/2005, you wrote: >Wasnt' intent on trolling. Had reread Snow Crash and have been looking >at how far we are to triggering the sort of devolution that would >result in the Snow Crash world. Was figuring that the Japanese bod pod >style hotels should be marketable given the real estate rates in the >Valley these days, and that these sortsa people would be pretty >experienced with spending time in Japan on contracts as well. > >Why, was I hitting a nerve? > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > Hey, Mike, out there, a troll is a troll is a troll..... ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Feb 13 01:54:56 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:54:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050213015456.74172.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > If we can, even in theory, exist as uploads, then > someone somewhere and somewhen in the universe has > already done so, for the big bang was a long time > ago, > the universe is ancient, but humanity, which appears > > within centuries or possibly just decades of > uploading, is recent. Here's one place where the chain breaks down. See Drake's equation, and the debates surrounding it, for reasons why we very well could be the first technologically advanced civilization in the universe. > Step 6: If someone somewhere and somewhen created > a machine capable of simulating sentience, then the > natural thing to do would be to wander about the > universe looking for perishable sentience to upload > before it expires. Here's another. There is no obvious, compelling reason to do this. A species could certainly do it, but said species could as well be looking to enhance its own civilizations by adding each new race's cultural (or biological and technological, as in a certain famous example) distinctiveness to its own. Instead of uploading into simulations, said species would upload newcomers into galactic or universal civilization. Or, again, it could simply pursue its own agenda safely away from any place life could exist; maybe it would monitor for and lock away any potential threats on life-bearing worlds, or maybe it wouldn't even bother. > Step 7: If we exist in a simulation as uploads, > that sim must be running on some meta-mechanical > device > of some unimaginable sort, one that cannot, in > principle, > produce *perfectly* random stochastic processes. > Even > meta-mechanical devices are mechanical devices > still. This assumes you know the physics of the world running the sim. Maybe they can have perfectly randomness, and the mechanical non-randomness is an artifact of the sim? From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 13 02:18:15 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:18:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <467635c7868c3b8a0482f60f7e057f05@mac.com> Interesting post, Spike. Here are a few questions and thoughts. First congratulations on the biggest grand construction in support of a hypothesis that I have encountered in some time. This was a truly surprising way to pull this result out of the sim notion. The idea that a post Singularity civilization would act this way is a weak link. That we greatly esteem that quantity (and quality) of sentience that is our own does not say that they would do so. Being awash in much greater intelligence and likely able to easily create autonomous intelligences of any desired capacity for any desired purpose, it is not clear to me why biological alien evolved intelligences would be much more than a mere momentary curiosity easily satisfied without seamlessly uploading the entire lot. If intelligence becomes plentiful as it should post Singularity it is not clear that any particular new bit of intelligence would be valued more than to the extent they add unique value unless they posses some perceived intrinsic value. Assuming your analysis of non-randomness is substantially correct I would still have reason to question whether understanding this and the direction of the slew actually was substantial enough to give much real competitive advantage. To get to useful psi I would also need to believe that the human nervous system was somehow wired to detect these aberrations, at least in some subset of the population. If there is no competitive advantage to speak of then there is no reason that psi would be selected for. - samantha From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 13 03:49:17 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:49:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Value of human life In-Reply-To: <420D6E31.7080405@cox.net> References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> <420D6E31.7080405@cox.net> Message-ID: <420ECE3D.101@cox.net> On 26 Dec, the Indian Ocean Tsunami killed a number of people. Initial reports were in the tens of thousands, and after some days the number stabilized in excess of 100K. Ouch. For the last week, the Indian ocean Tsunami has not been a headline at Google News. Today, there is a headline about the dam collapse in Pakistan, causing a loss of life of 135 people. This is of course a tragedy. The Tsunami is not mentioned. Can we conclude anything from this? is there a "half-life" of the value of a human life? Jump forward to the (mythical?) singularity. Some are able to upload, and some are not. As Extropians, do we care? how important is an individual human life at the cusp? do we care about how many humans participate in the singularity? From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 04:32:15 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > This is a valid question. We seriously overbuilt bandwidth in the > 90s. > So that a large percentage of current traffic is spam may not be as > > scary as it at first looks. My spam filters are very efficient > currently. i only have to hand sort about a dozen messages a day. > If > this was true of more people the profitability would decrease. > > > On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:10 PM, kevinfreels.com wrote: > > > I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never recall anyone > > referring to > > physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is SPAM any > different? > > Is it > > simply a matter of volume or is there a larger reason you would > call it > > such? Personally I think I have spent more time reading about spam > and > > dealing with getting my mail through overzealous spam filters than > I > > actually spend deleting spam. I cen selectively delete a day's > worth > > of spam > > in less time than it takes for me to walk to my mailbox and back. > Why > > do so > > many people put so much time and energy into defeating it? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Lorrey" > > To: ; "ExI chat list" > > > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:55 PM > > Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: > > [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) > > > > > >> > >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > >>> > >>> And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. > >>> The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the > wider > >>> community. > >> > >> You don't have the right to spread viruses, or to monopolize other > >> people's network assets. That is not free speech. > >> > >>> > >>> If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly > >>> reduced. > >>> Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both > advertise > >>> via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of > >>> assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > >>> > >>> Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute > and > >>> punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have > been > >>> handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. > >> > >> More big government solutions. > >> > >> Spam is theft, viruses are vandalism, as well as theft of > services. > >> They are property crimes, a matter of common law. A persons right > to > >> defend their property against attackers is inviolate. Give them > the > >> tools to make it happen. > >> > >> ===== > >> Mike Lorrey > >> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) > >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> Do you Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 05:02:57 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050213015456.74172.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050213050257.1024.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- spike wrote: > > If we can, even in theory, exist as uploads, then > > someone somewhere and somewhen in the universe has > > already done so, for the big bang was a long time > > ago, > > the universe is ancient, but humanity, which appears > > > > within centuries or possibly just decades of > > uploading, is recent. > > Here's one place where the chain breaks down. See > Drake's equation, and the debates surrounding it, > for reasons why we very well could be the first > technologically advanced civilization in the universe. On the contrary, the Drake equation has been getting a drumming the past few years as the number of extrasolar planets rises, as martian fossil meteorites are found (and solid evidence of water is found on Mars) along with subsurface oceans on not only Europa but Ganymede as well, it is clear that a) life is common wherever planets allow it, b) planets are common, and given how young our solar system is the supposition we are the first techno civilization in this galaxy is strained, the idea we are first in the whole universe is impossible. > > > Step 6: If someone somewhere and somewhen created > > a machine capable of simulating sentience, then the > > natural thing to do would be to wander about the > > universe looking for perishable sentience to upload > > before it expires. > > Here's another. There is no obvious, compelling > reason to do this. A species could certainly do it, > but said species could as well be looking to enhance > its own civilizations by adding each new race's > cultural (or biological and technological, as in a > certain famous example) distinctiveness to its own. > Instead of uploading into simulations, said species > would upload newcomers into galactic or universal > civilization. Or, again, it could simply pursue its > own agenda safely away from any place life could > exist; maybe it would monitor for and lock away any > potential threats on life-bearing worlds, or maybe it > wouldn't even bother. > > > Step 7: If we exist in a simulation as uploads, > > that sim must be running on some meta-mechanical > > device > > of some unimaginable sort, one that cannot, in > > principle, > > produce *perfectly* random stochastic processes. > > Even > > meta-mechanical devices are mechanical devices > > still. > > This assumes you know the physics of the world > running the sim. Maybe they can have perfectly > randomness, and the mechanical non-randomness is an > artifact of the sim? You are forgetting the turtles. More than one turtle per universe means a veritable plethora of turtlesque universes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian at posthuman.com Sun Feb 13 05:23:19 2005 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:23:19 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420EE447.6020105@posthuman.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so > much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could > afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. > Hmm, no I think Yahoo would not have purchased all that "spare capacity" in the first place if it hadn't been forced to by the spam. There may be viable financial reasons to offer 10 GB of free space, and if there are then Yahoo will do it. It isn't dependent on having spare space sitting around, or if it is then they would have to sharply limit the number of eventual users to prevent the business model from entering an unprofitable mode. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Feb 13 06:06:41 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:06:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kurzweil Article Retread Message-ID: <00ba01c51192$304d8010$6600a8c0@brainiac> I've seen variations on this article on Kurzweil lately, and this one is on Yahoo today (heads-up came from another email list to which I belong, and Kurzweil was described as extremely intelligent, but possessing off-the-wall ideas - the subject line was, in fact, "Even the REALLY smart can be fooled ..."): http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20050213/ ap_on_hi_te/one_man_s_immortality or http://tinyurl.com/5ja56 Observe the last two paragraphs: "The instinct to preserve individuality, and to gain advantage for yourself and children, would survive any breakthrough into biological immortality - which Silver doesn't think is possible. The gap between the haves and have-nots would widen and Kurzweil's vision of a united humanity would become ever more elusive, he said. 'I think it would require a change in human nature,' Silver said, 'and I don't think people want to do that.'" Olga From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Feb 13 08:44:12 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:44:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Of Transhumanists: Following the trail of the alchemists Message-ID: <20050213083733.M20691@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> I said January 7, 2005 on the wta-talk list: >Hmmm... I say, for the most useful "big picture" perspective >of Transhumanists, one could follow the trail of the alchemists >for the last ~couple thousand years. and James Hughes followed: >Please do tell us about this book when you are ready. Its also on my reading list. I got interested in the pre-history of >transhumanism in alchemy through the Neal Stepehenson "System of >the World" trilogy, which has fascinating stuff about Newton and >the connections of alchemy >and early scientific investigation. >I think we need to flesh out our understanding of our own >intellectual and cultural roots, both to learn from the mistakes >of forebears and to >learn some humility. Apologies for my long delay in following up. I didn't finish reading William Newman's book yet, but I've read enough that I can give more details on my home-brewed 'big picture' perspective of alchemy and what I see as a link to transhumanist thinking. If folks here don't agree, then at least, consider the usefulness of the arguments of this very old debate and try to understand the history. The book that supported my thoughts in this direction (of alchemy-transhumanism) is the following, which a great review last summer in the International Herald Tribune, convinced me to buy: _Promethean Ambitions: Alchemy and the Quest to Perfect Nature_ Nonfiction. By William R. Newman. 333 pages. $30. University of Chicago Press. http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=532091.html Reviewed by Edward Rothstein NYT Monday, August 02, 2004 {some quotes from the Review} For him, alchemy, from its ancient origins as a servant to the decorative arts to its 17th-century transmutation into modern chemistry, provided the crucible in which many contemporary ideas about nature and artifice were first examined. Today, he writes, "we live in the era of 'Frankenfoods,' cloning, in vitro fertilization, synthetic polymers, Artificial Intelligence, and computer generated 'Artificial Life,'" an era in which Pope John Paul II has warned of the "Promethean ambitions" of biomedical science, and the President's Council on Bioethics has studied Hawthorne's alchemical story, "The Birth-Mark." But Newman argues that most current debates about boundaries between nature and artifice, or boundaries between proper and improper scientific exploration, echo debates that run through the history of alchemy. Critics of alchemy argued that the natural world could not be replicated or improved and that such goals should not be pursued. Advocates found porous boundaries between nature and artifice that could be explored and tested. In Newman's view, this tension between nature and artifice is fundamental. Alchemy is primarily an art of transmutation: One metal is turned into another, one living creature erupts out of the substance of another. Alchemy is concerned with the character of that change. It thus pays attention to categories, differences and boundaries. If one substance is changed into another, does it change its essence or only some of its properties? Is nature being revealed or overturned? {end quote} As transhumanists are concerned with these same issues, I think that this is an important book to digest, synthesize, and extract perspectives and arguments for our own persuasions. This book is dense, filled to the brim with references. The author states in the preface that whatever the reader thinks of Kass, one must sympathize with the Council's desire to find some grounding in tradition for the profound ethical dilemmas that surround our increasing power over nature. A General Outline of _Promethean Ambitions_ is the following: 1) Relationship of various arts to nature in the ancient world (especially Aristotle's view) 2) Overview of alchemy with an emphasis of the art-nature debate (limits to the power that the divinity gave to humans) 3) Peculiar relationship between alchemists, painters, and practioners of the plastic arts during the Renaissance 4) The most controversial of alchemical claims are associated with Paracelsus von Hohenheim, who claimed he could create a homunculus. 5) The art-nature debate in the history of experimental science, focusing on Francis Bacon and his followers. 6) Further ramifications of the art-nature debate such as Charles Darwin's influence by the alchemical treatises of naturalist Koelreuter and Goethe's influence by Paracelsian's homunculus In the writing that follows, I have interspersed passages from Newman's text and Shah's text, in order to summarize what I consider as alchemy's relevance for transhumanists. If I don't reference Idries Shaw directly, then it means that material came from William Newman's text ------------------------------------- Two interpretations of alchemy ------------------------------------- Historians who study European and Eastern medieval life often encounter two interpretations of the 'art' of alchemy (1). The methods of concentration, distillation, maturing, and mixing could be considered as a physical chemistry exercise or as human psychological transformation, that is, a disguised form of a spiritual quest. What confuses the two interpretations is that one of the origins of alchemy- the Sufis, did indeed work in laboratories performing real alchemy experiments. In _The Sufis_(Doubleday, 1964), author Idries Shaw draws a historical account of alchemy from the Sufi perspective. Newman never uses the word 'Sufi' in his historical descriptions, nor does he consider the spiritual dimension. Newman's text is only concerned with the definition of alchemy that denotes a physical transmutation of one material into another. I think that transhumanists should be concerned with the psychological transmutation, as well. The Sufi student is given an undertaking that may not seem scientific by contemporary standards, and for the purposes of their self-development, one must carry it out with complete faith (1). In the process of planning and carrying through this effort, one attains one?s spiritual development. Even though the alchemical or other undertaking might be impossible, it is the framework within which one?s mental and moral development is carried out. It is something like the perspective that competitive sport or scholastic undertakings are performed; that is, the mountain or the PhD or the muscular development are the fixed points, but they are not the element which is actually being transformed by the effort.? >From Shaw's book (page 225-6), there is a Sufi allegory about alchemy. A father has several idle sons. On his deathbed he tells them that they will find his treasure hidden in his field. They dig up the field and find nothing. So they plant wheat, which provides an abundant crop. For several years they do this. They find no gold, but indirectly they become both rich and also accustomed to constructive labor. Ultimately they become honest farmers, and forget the digging for gold. The search for gold through chemical methods, then, produces gains which are other than those apparently sought. This story was known in the West, because it is quoted by Francis Bacon and Boehaave, the 17th century chemist. For the Sufis, in the larger context of humanity, the physical and spiritual process of alchemy is the regeneration of an essential part of humanity, called "the Philosopher?s Stone", an essence (inside each man), which is thought to uplift humanity to the next stage (1). The function of the Philosopher?s Stone is as an universal medicine and a source of longevity. The interesting fact about this stone is that the stone or elixir is a state of mind. The elements to produce the Stone (the essence) are sulphur (kibrit, homonym of kibirat, "greatness, nobility"), salt (milh, homonym of milh, "goodness, learning"), and mercury (zibaq, ?to open a lock, to break"). Paracelsus (1493-1541) notes: "Mercury is the spirit, sulphur is the soul, salt is the body." ---------------------------------------------- Some Alchemical Ancient History --------------------------------------------- In his text, Newman first spends time in topics from Ancient Greece and Egypt, in order to define 'art' and to see how the art versus nature debates developed. I noticed that Newman left out ancient China, however, so I'll fill it in from Idries Shaw: Alchemy was practiced in China as early as the fifth century B.C. It was originally 'spiritual', but later arose the metallurgical aspects. Many, if not all, of the ideas of alchemy as a spiritual process are present in the teachings of the Chinese sage Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism, who was probably born in 604 B.C. We also find the elixir theory, of a preparation or method which confers immortality, in the philosophers of China connected with alchemy, and in the Hindu Atharva Veda, whose date is earlier than 1000 B.C. Chinese philosophers specifically state that there are three alchemies: The first is to produce longevity through liquid gold; the second is to produce a red sulphurous ingredient in goldmaking; the third was to transmute other metals into gold. (1) Meaning of Art Since 'Art versus Nature' is the debate that is central to Newman's text, one must pay close attention to Newman's definitions and to the written context, in order to understand how Newman is using the word 'art'. In many places in his text, 'art' means (physical) alchemy. Aristotle's two possibilities of art (_Physics II_) are to 1) perfect natural processes and to bring them to a state of completion not found in nature itself (i.e. improve), and to 2) only imitate nature without fundamentally altering it, i.e.,. to imitate various aspects of the natural world. In the ancient world, this imitation was considered a little like cheating, counterfeit. Aristotle's ideas were persistent threads arguing against the transmutational aspects of alchemy for the next two thousand years. From the Aristotelian perspective, it on one thing to improve upon nature, but it is quite another thing to improve upon nature itself. Conquering Nature Another dimension to the Art versus Nature debate by the ancients (esp. Aristotle, in his book: _Mechanical Problems_) is *conquering* nature. Conquering nature exhibits one or more of these features: 1) The making of a product whose artificiality could not be detected by the human senses 2) a product that was more pleasing than the natural 3) making natural objects behave in a fashion that was 'unnatural'. Cassiodorus and Pappus took Aristotle's 'Mechanical' ideas further, in order to claim that the conquest of nature is a desirable goal. The imitation of life as the crowning achievement of the mechanical tradition. First instances of 'Art is perhaps better than Nature' One of the early manifestations of alchemy are visible in two papyri composed in Egypt around the 4th century C.E. called the Leiden and Stockholm papri (for the modern libraries, where they are stored). The papri state that "artificial is at least as good as the natural for the purpose of humans, perhaps better." The fruition of the grafting of Greek philosophical ideas onto the chemical technology of ancient Egypt did not occur, however, until later; clearly in the writings of the mysterious and prolific alchemist Zosimos, in upper Egypt around 300 C.E.. Zosimos' writing provided the means by which nature can pass from an imperfect state to a regenerative one. (perhaps Zosimos is the first cryonicist?) Once the primitive ideas of alchemy are set, the author presents questions that seem familiar, questions that alchemy has sparked over the next many hundreds of years: Was art always limited to the imperfect mimicry of nature or could human being genuinely recreate natural products? Did the assertions of the alchemists infringe on the power of God himself, turning man into the creator on the same level as the divinity? If alchemists could make precious metals, where did their powers end? To the replication of life? Could they improved on the life that the creator formed? ------------------------------------- Some Arabic Alchemy History ------------------------------------- Between the ancient times and the Medieval and Renaissance times, the alchemical lore was located east, especially with the Arabs (and Sufis, I would say). A particularly influential Arab whose writings became accidently mixed with Aristotle's, which gave him added prominence, was Ibn Sina (1037), also known as "Avicenna". He gave some of the most weighted attacks against alchemy, which then formed the backbone of arguments used by anti-alchemists such as Thomas Acquinas over the next hundreds of years. Avicenna's arguments are "Even if artificers can fabricate clever simulations of natural products, those alchemists can never make genuinely natural products because: 1) Art is weaker than nature, and doesn't overtake it, however much it labors, and 2) it is not possible to take away specific differences by some technique because it is not due to such accidents that one complexion is turned into another. The differences of the metals are not known, and therefore how will it be possible to know whether it is removed or not?" Another anti-alchemical attack stemming from the Arabs was the Aristotilian commentor of the 12th century, Averroes. He argued that, "since the causes of art and nature are different, the same thing cannot be made by both art and nature. The products must be diverse., so then alchemist have erred. If the products appear to be the same it is an illusion." Newman lists the writings of three or four Arabs who were anti-alchemy, and he only mentions one: Jabir Ibn el-Hayyan, also known as Geber, who was pro-alchemy. This seems strange to me, given what I know of the importance of alchemy in the Sufi tradition. In Idries Shaw's book, many pro-alchemy Sufi workers are discussed. Geber was the most famous of the Sufi alchemists. His view, in the context of Aristotle, is that art can succeed in imitating nature's methods. Even though he limited himself to the ingredients of the philosopher's stone, he did not believe that the alchemist must follow nature in every step of the alchemy process. He allowed that processes could be identical regardless of whether they occurred in natural or artificial vessels. He said: "Our intention is not to follow nature in her principles, nor in the proportion of miscible elements, nor in the manner of their mutual mixture, nor in the equalizing of the thickening heat, for all these things are impossible and unknown to use." As in the _Book of Hermes_ (below), Geber's empirical concept of substance led to an erasure of the necessary distinction between natural and artificial products. ------------------------------------- Alchemy in Medieval Times ------------------------------------- When the Arab and Greek alchemical lore began to be translated into Latin in the 1100s, then the debate for/against alchemy continued, and polarized the thinking man into pro-alchemy and anti-alchemy. Albertus Manus straddled both sides, and laid arguments for and against alchemy, usually involving demons. However, his student, Thomas Acquinas, continued Manus' anti-alchemy position. Demons were between humans and God, and more powerful than humans. Many of the Medieval arguments against alchemy stemmed from giving demons too much power. Theologians of the 13th century initiated a tradition of discussing alchemy in the context of demonic power, not because alchemy was a form of magic, but because it represented a high point of the arts in its relationship to nature. Alchemy was a useful yardstick to assess the things that demons could or could not do. The alchemical art-nature debate unfortunately also led to the Great Witch Hunt. On the other side of the debate, the pro-alchemists including Francis Bacon (a Sufi, even though Newman doesn't label him as such), and Petrus Bonus provided a comprehensive defense of their art, maintaining a position for alchemy as the apex of human endeavors in the realm of artisanship. The _Book of Hermes_ (author unknown, but might be a translation from an earlier Sufi text) was a particularly potent defense. It presented an empirical approach to the artificial-natural divide, and prefigured the attitude of Francis Bacon and Robert Boyle and John Locke. The text argues that a wide variety of arts can indeed reproduce the products of nature. Moreover, the artificial versions are better than the natural versions. The author of _The Book of Hermes_ also looks at the fabrication of 'new' species by means of grafting. Petrus Bonus of Ferrara (1330s) depended on Geber's work and the _Book of Hermes_ and, at the same time managed to wrap alchemy in a religious context. Following the Aristotilian definitions of art, he considered alchemy an art to aid and perfect nature, and because he claimed it was not introducing a new substantial form, he sidestepped the demon facet. By applying Geber's ideas, he claimed that an alchemical product is 'natural' as long as the methods by which the object was produced follow the operations of nature. The focus on the process rather than the product allowed the alchemist to call any object 'natural', so long as the operations that led to its production were seen as perfecting natural virtues. The religious baggage entered via the following logic, however: If human works were better than natural works, and nature was simply the ordained power of God, then where did this place Man in relation to God? Petrus solves it by stating that alchemy was a 'gift of God'. Alchemical success required not only natural knowledge, but a supernatural revelation bestowed by God himself. Raymond Lully, the Majorcan mystic, took the revelation link further. The practioners who applied similar logic unfortunately raised the suspicion of Inquisitors such as Nicholas Eymerich because it implied that the alchemists carried a special gift of revelation. Francis Bacon appears in Newman's text near the end, when Newman describes the 'issue of experiment'. Bacon, a 13th century thinker had a genuine plan for the reformulation of experimental science. His debt to alchemy did not stay on the surface by merely reading Geber's works, but flowed deeper; he went to Spain and found the sources. His large contribution to the art-nature debate was to diminish the divide between the two via experimental science, to increase the certainty of experimental knowledge by means of a rigorous method. He influenced people like Robert Boyle (the 'father of chemistry') who, while an anti-alchemist, tried to implement the experimental program of Francis Bacon. The alchemists in the Medieval times provided material for debate in other areas than the art versus nature arena. By repeatedly appealing to spontaneous and artificial generation as a support for transmutation and artisanal power, some arrived at the claim that the alchemists could improve on nature in the living realm as well as the mineral realm. The dream of making an artificial human being by 16th century practioners such as Paracelsus finds its justification and origin in the art-nature debate at this time. Also the laboratory experiments and replication of nature led to the technological work of Francis Bacon and his school. --------------------------------------------- Alchemy in Renaissance Times -------------------------------------------- In these times, we see that the 'visual artists' were very interested in alchemy as a body of technical processes, especially those pertaining to pigment making, metallurgy, and the simulation of precious materials. At the same time, however, there was a strong tendency among painters and sculptors to deprecate the blatant goals of the alchemists in the creation or transmutation of species. The alchemists themselves often fanned the flames by insisting on the unique character of their art in the face of all others. The French pottery maker Bernard Palissy, managed to frame powerful arguments against the alchemists, but at the same time, he appropriated the alchemists' agenda, that is, of replicating nature, rather than creating a mere imitation. When the alchemists argued that artists were failed impostors in the business of imitating nature, Palissy replied that the alchemists themselves misunderstood the real subject of transmutation. For example, he argued that beautiful shells are made by the "most malformed fish that could be found in the sea" but could not be replicated by the alchemist. Palissy said that he, on the other hand, could create animals, "sculpted and enameled so close to nature that other natural lizards and serpents will often come to admire them." ------------------------------------- Artificial Life and the Homunculus ------------------------------------- The debates we see today on the goals and ethical implications of artificial life can be traced to the art-nature debate where the alchemists often drew on the spontaneous generation of animals as examples relevant to alchemical transmutation. Sometimes they supported the transmutation of 'species' (later, George Darwin applied the alchemists' ideas in a biological context), and other times, they asserted the alchemist's freedom from astrological determinism. Newman's chapter on this subject gives details for the attempts to create a living creature throughout history. Late antique and medieval theories of artificial life can be separated into two categories, those that elaborated on the theory of spontaneous generation, as outlined in the biological works of Aristotle, and those based on the cosmogonic myths of a creator God. We see the extravagant claims to make cattle out of dead bees, and further, we see recipes for surpassing the ordinary products of generation. For example, we see a recipe for a rational animal in _The Book of Cow_, and the ancient Geber gives a description for a prophetic being. The homunculus of Paracelsus is also conceived in the light of outdoing nature. Paracelsus (16th century) was a remarkable figure, in every respect. He combined the Arabic literature on artificial generation with themes drawn from German folk legend, transforming the homunculus into bestial symbols that figured in Goethe's Faust Part II. His personal life was equally interesting, detailed notes on his life give us the possibility that Paracelsus may have been capable of description as either female or male. Paracelsus' work 'De natura rerum' presented the homunculus and led to conflicting views. Paracelsus promoted the homunculus as the crowning pinnacle of human art, showing the a positive role for the male, but the woman's role is one of female evil, and works give disturbing eugenic thought experiments. After the time of Paracelsus, the homunculus was followed up by mainly literary works. The goal of artificial androgenesis induced by allowing male seed to generate "spontaneously" is large in the homunculus literature. Many of the authors saw male parthenogensis as a plausible means of escaping the bonds of the material world. At the same time, others, such as Thomas Aquinas was writing of their apprehensions setting the stage for the ethical debates we see today. (1) Idries Shaw, _The Sufis_, Doubleday, 1964. Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 13 09:45:44 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:45:44 +0100 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: References: <20050211185515.99187.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000f01c51086$91622e80$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050213094544.GC1404@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 01:53:39PM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > This is a valid question. We seriously overbuilt bandwidth in the 90s. SMTP is a negligible fraction of total traffic. Because ISPs require customers to send/receive email via their infrastructure instead of directly, these machines are hit hard. The solution is obvious. > So that a large percentage of current traffic is spam may not be as > scary as it at first looks. My spam filters are very efficient Spam is not a problem at end user end, bandwidth-wise (apart from a few cases on dialup and thousands of spam messages/day). > currently. i only have to hand sort about a dozen messages a day. If > this was true of more people the profitability would decrease. Any solution beginning with "people should..." doesn't work. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 14:32:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:32:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420EE447.6020105@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20050213143237.89005.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Brian Atkins wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so > > much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could > > afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. > > > > Hmm, no I think Yahoo would not have purchased all that "spare > capacity" in the first place if it hadn't been forced to by the spam. > > There may be viable financial reasons to offer 10 GB of free space, > and if there are then Yahoo will do it. It isn't dependent on having > spare space sitting around, or if it is then they would have to > sharply limit the number of eventual users to prevent the business > model from entering an unprofitable mode. If spammers are taking up your bandwidth and disk space, you don't have it 'spare' sitting around, its being wasted by people who are not paying you for the use of it. You either find a way to make them pay you for use of the space, or find a way to block them. We hear of them blocking sources of spam, but my spambox (which doesn't count toward my 200meg limit but does count toward their bottom line) still fills up. I do like that they've invested in some very effective spam filters that rarely bump real traffic to me and rarely let spam traffic through, but that is also costing yahoo money that it isn't getting from me and could be used to pad their profit margin or increase my level of service, or both. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Sun Feb 13 14:33:00 2005 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:33:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] conference on consciousness Message-ID: Those of you in the Southern Californian area might be interested in the following conference I am involved in organizing. best, patrick --------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPER & POSTER PROPOSALS ASSOCIATION FOR THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF CONSCIOUSNESS 9TH ANNUAL MEETING California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California June 24 - June 27, 2005 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The ninth annual meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness will be held from June 24th to June 27th, 2005, at the California Institute of Technology. Caltech is a small and focussed research university, with 29 Nobel laureates among its faculty and alumni, located in Pasadena, California. About twenty minutes from downtown Los Angeles, at the base of the San Gabriel Mountains, Pasadena's popular shops and restaurants blend comfortably with tree-lined streets, distinctive neighborhoods, historic buildings and a vibrant cultural scene. Immediatley prior to the ASSC9 meeting the McDonnell project in "Philosophy and the Neurosciences" will hold a separate workshop and meeting entitled "Neurophilosophy: The State of the Art", for more details see . For the latest details about the ASSC9 meeting, check the conference website: . Confirmed plenary speakers include: Patrick Cavanagh, Harvard University Jean-Pierre Changeux, Insitut Pasteur Derek Denton, University of Melbourne Steven Laureys, University of Liege John Searle, University of California, Berkeley Giulio Tononi, University of Wisconsin-Madison In addition to keynote talks a number of symposia are planned: PHILOSOPHY, PSYCHOPHYSICS AND NEUROSCIENCE OF SPACE AND TIME Ben Libet, University of California, Davis Concetta Morrone, Universite Vita-Salute S Raffaele, Milan Romi Nijhawan, University of Sussex VISUAL AFTEREFFECTS AND THE NEURAL CORRELATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS Randolph Blake, Vanderbilt University Geoffrey Boynton, Salk Institute David Leopold, National Institute of Mental Health Shin Shimojo, California Institite of Technology HYPNOSIS AND THE DIVISION OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND COGNITIVE CONTROL Graham Jamieson, University of New England, Armidale, Australia Richard Brown, University of Manchester Zoltan Dienes, University of Sussex 2004 TOM SLICK RESEARCH AWARD IN CONSCIOUSNESS Fred Gage, Salk Institute Susan Greenfield, Oxford University Allan Hobson, Harvard Medical School Christof Koch, California Institute of Technology This is the FIRST call for paper and poster proposals. ASSC9 is intended to promote interdisciplinary dialogue in the scientific study of consciousness, as in previous years a significant portion of the program will be set aside for concurrent sessions of submitted talks and poster sessions. ASSC9 will provide an excellent opportunity for the presentation of new empirical findings or novel theoretical perspectives in an atmosphere that will promote discussion and debate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- CALL FOR PAPER AND POSTER SUBMISSIONS SUBMISSIONS MUST BE RECEIVED BY APRIL 1, 2005 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Speakers in concurrent sessions are invited to talk on any topic relevant to the scientific study of consciousness. Submissions that include anthropological, evolutionary, physiological, psychological, philosophical, or computational perspectives are all welcome. Submissions for both posters and talks will be accepted (please specify preference). Any person may present only one submission, but may be co-author on more than one. Oral presentations will be limited to 20 minutes, to be followed by a ten-minute discussion period. Submit by emailing your abstract and supplementary information as a PDF file to: assc9 at klab.caltech.edu Please include with your submission the following information: 1. Title. 2. Name, affiliation, and ASSC membership status of each co-author, with presenting co-author designated. 3. An abstract of up to 400 words. 4. Complete contact information for the author with whom the scientific program committee will interact with about the submission: name, institutional affiliation, postal address, e-mail address, telephone and fax numbers. 5. An indication of whether the proposal is submitted as an oral or poster presentation, and an indication of willingness to present in the alternative format if your first preference cannot be accommodated. If you have any difficulties in submitting your proposal, or any other questions regarding the meeting, please contact . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- REGISTRATION & CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- As in previous years, discounted registration will be available to ASSC members, who will also enjoy a range of book discounts and other member benefits. The registration discount will be greater than the cost of membership, so prospective members are encouraged to join ASSC now! To find out more about the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness, and to apply for membership, please consult our website at: . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- ASSC9 Scientific Program Committee: Ralph Adolphs, Timothy Bayne, Christof Koch (Chair), David Leopold, Geraint Rees, Shinsuke Shimojo, Petra Stoerig & Patrick Wilken. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Feb 13 12:30:34 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:30:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Two anniversaries: Galileo and Bruno Message-ID: <20050213122441.M10226@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> * Thursday February 15, 2005 is the 442 birthday of Galileo Galilei * Thursday, February 17, 2005 is the 404th anniversary of Giordano Bruno burning at the stake. (p.s.: extropes, fast forward below to what Bruno got wrong) Giordano Bruno After 400 Years by David Brin, Thu Feb 17, '00 We live in a publicity-craving era of frenetic fame-seekers. So it can be ironic to realize how some of the most celebrated people of the past somehow slipped into obscurity, even after a lifetime spent earning acclaim. Take Aldous Huxley, for example. The author of Brave new World and many other bold novels -- who also helped usher in the psychedelic era -- managed to time his death so the obituary vanished in a back corner of any newspaper that bothered to mention it at all. He did this by passing away on Nov. 22, 1963, the same day that President John F. Kennedy was shot. Care to top that? Try this. Even as we slowly work off our hangovers and headaches from those Y2K non-events and anticlimactic "millennium celebrations" -- and while we watch the Internet undergo partial self-destruction at the hands of some of its brightest sons -- I notice on my calendar that we nearly let pass without notice the 400th anniversary of the death (on an execution pyre) of Giordano Bruno. Giordano who? Giordano Bruno... only one of the greatest geniuses of the later Renaissance and one spectacularly interesting fellow. All right, few people know of him today. Tourists blink in puzzlement at his statue, now standing in the Roman square -- the Campo de Fiori -- where the Inquisition incinerated him. But his name wasn't always obscure. With a colorful personality and a flood of unconventional opinions, Bruno was a sensational figure as the 17th century drew to a close -- a prominent Renaissance thinker who, true to that complex era, mixed philosophy, religion, logic and mysticism while preaching a daring worldview that helped set the stage for what we now know as science. Born near Naples in 1548, Bruno joined the Dominican order of monks at age 18. But soon his restless spirit and critical mind led him to question church teachings, including the notion that the heavens revolved around the Earth, forcing him to flee to Geneva, then France, England and Germany. Bruno's habit of questioning established doctrines brought him into conflict with powerful leaders of both the Catholic and Reformed churches, few of whom were known to tolerate free-thinkers. Still, with luck and uncanny survival instincts -- and by appealing to the intellectual excitement of the time -- Bruno kept teaching unconventional views in Oxford, Marburg, Wittenberg, Prague, and Frankfurt. Eventually lured back to Italy on a pretext, Bruno was imprisoned in 1592 by the Inquisition, tried as a heretic and burned alive on Feb. 17, 1600. It can be easy to get carried away over some of Bruno's most prescient views - for instance championing the heliocentric astronomy of Copernicus before Galileo did, then going much further to suggest that the twinkling stars in our night sky are actually suns shining on distant planets, possibly harboring other forms of life. He also held that humans might someday acquire almost godlike powers by understanding lightning and other heavenly mysteries. In that event, we might still need religion for moral guidance -- he opined -- but no longer to shape our models of the physical or biological world. In an era transfixed by the primacy of the human image -- when great minds of the establishment insisted that the Creator must have a navel and a beard -- Bruno completely rejected the anthropocentric universe, believing instead that the Earth and individual humans are ultimately accidental products of a single living world-substance. In this, he presaged many notions of Darwinian biology. To a modern mind, his call for tolerance and open enquiry seems especially poignant and prophetic. Still, one does Bruno a disservice by emphasizing only the things he got right. Many of his other writings now seem silly, deliberately provocative, or just perplexingly obscure, such as his doctrine of panpsychism (belief that reality is constituted by the mind), which anticipated the teachings of Gottfried Leibniz and Baruch Spinoza... and may be echoed in today's extropian movement. He used to get into terrific rows with contemporaries over minutiae that would put most of today's philosophy professors into snoring catalepsy. (People cared deeply about such things, once upon a time.) His fascination with magic and the occult would hardly impress scientists in the year 2000, though it might lend him a New Age cult appeal. So? The essential point -- and the reason I find this long-dead fellow's life worth noting -- is how Bruno looked around a superstitious age with eyes that were essentially modern. Even his flaming egotism and penchant for pushing other peoples' buttons would fit in well, today. The clergy of his time weren't dummies; they had their own "grand unified theory" of how things worked and how people should behave. If we have made progress since that era, we owe it less to our improved orthodoxies than to the way we've learned to _tap_ the creative energies of those who defy the intellectual status quo, instead of killing them. Slowly, often grudgingly, society discovered that there is something to value in the rancorous, difficult, blasphemous few who gleefully challenge authority. Those who rip away the set pieces of any conservative worldview to reveal disturbing truths that lie beneath and beyond. Such people, though irksome, are also responsible for much progress in the world. Imagine if Bruno somehow got teleported into our time -- perhaps with other standout intellects like Benjamin Franklin. One could picture him adjusting with relish to an era so enamored of flamboyant eccentrics. In a month, he would be on all the talk shows. In a year, he might have his own. In fact, why not spin a story about that? Imagine that some future, time-traveling age will share our own fascination with exceptional men and women of the past. Suppose they reach back to grab Bruno out of his pyre at the last moment, if only to repair and then enjoy a colorfully vivid person who surged so far ahead of his time, caroming about the realm of ideas like a joyous crank, shouting at his stupefied contemporaries to _wake up!_ Not all geniuses are saintly or perfect. Some can be simultaneously offensive, delightful, in your face and profound in both their prescient visions and their spectacular errors. They are also terrifically alive. So very alive that I feel they somehow testify for the rest of us. They help justify us, showing that humanity _must_ have a reason -- beyond mere creation or natural selection -- for being. david brin,copyright 2/00 1000 From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 13 15:51:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:51:40 +0100 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420EE447.6020105@posthuman.com> References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420EE447.6020105@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <20050213155140.GH1404@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 11:23:19PM -0600, Brian Atkins wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > >You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so > >much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could The bandwidth spam requires is negligible, ditto also applies for disk space. I can easily get 0.19 EUR/GByte, for major providers with peering arrangement traffic is effectively free. Single hot spots (mail servers) is where it's at. Spam filtering is crunch-intensive (even more so than scanning for malware), and hence should be moved to the periphery. > >afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. Do you think the system allocates 10 GBytes for every user, and it is just sitting there idle, slowly filling up? That would be a lousy business strategy. I'm not sure people realize how far the prices in storage have fallen. Single drives go up to half a terabyte in size these days: $314 - Serial ATA 400GB $186 - Serial ATA 300GB $122 - Serial ATA 250GB $105 - Serial ATA 200GB $80 - Serial ATA 160GB It doesn't have to be SCSI of FC these days. > > > > Hmm, no I think Yahoo would not have purchased all that "spare capacity" > in the first place if it hadn't been forced to by the spam. There is no spare capacity. The systems are being purchased as the accounts fill up. > There may be viable financial reasons to offer 10 GB of free space, and I don't think Gmail is unprofitable. It's a just another canvas for adwords, which is what gives Google these insane profits. > if there are then Yahoo will do it. It isn't dependent on having spare > space sitting around, or if it is then they would have to sharply limit > the number of eventual users to prevent the business model from entering > an unprofitable mode. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 17:53:02 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:53:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213155140.GH1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050213175303.58684.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 11:23:19PM -0600, Brian Atkins wrote: > > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have > so > > >much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could > > The bandwidth spam requires is negligible, ditto also applies for > disk space. I can easily get 0.19 EUR/GByte, for major providers > with peering arrangement traffic is effectively free. > > Single hot spots (mail servers) is where it's at. Spam filtering is > crunch-intensive (even more so than scanning for malware), and hence > should be moved to the periphery. > > > >afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. > > Do you think the system allocates 10 GBytes for every user, and it is > just sitting there idle, slowly filling up? That would be a lousy > business strategy. > > I'm not sure people realize how far the prices in storage have > fallen. Single drives go up to half a terabyte in size these days. Cost of the drives isn't what opportunity cost is about. Opportunity cost is what opportunities are foregone because of a choice or event. In respect to this situation, a mail service offering 10 gigs of space would attract more users than one that offers 250 megs of space. This reduces the ability of the mail server to sell ad space etc. Spam today represents as much as 85% of all e-mail sent and received, according to the U.N.'s International Telecommunications Union, up from approximately 35% just one year ago. Spam is a true global phenomenon, not limited to the U.S. If an e-mail address exists, sooner or later the spammers will find it. What this means is that the the incremental cost to yahoo for each real message I receive is six times larger than it should be. This means that they need to charge six times as much for the ads that appear on the pages my browser loads than they would otherwise, they make six times less profit, or offer me six times less features to me, their user, or a combination of all three. Essentially spam is sucking all the profit out of the dot com industry and is directing it to the owners of bandwidth, who get paid whether the bandwidth is used by me or by spammers. This is not an accident. I've investigated several email and fax spammer sources. This started one day when my office was inundated with phone calls from people who wanted their names 'removed from my list'. Turns out that a fax spammer (the biggest spammers do both fax and email spam) had put my company's 800 number on the bottom of their faxes for people to call to have their names removed. I investigated the other numbers on the fax and found that SBC is sheltering the identities of these spammers, they wouldn't disclose them without a subpoena, even when presented with this prima facia evidence that their clients are violating fax spam law by giving a false remove number and wire fraud by using our 800 number. It is my conclusion that the telecom industry is colluding with spammers to soak up unused bandwidth and getting their legitimate customers to pay for it. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Feb 13 18:16:27 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:16:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <420F997B.9307FBDE@mindspring.com> What say you Hubert re the popularity (or not) of Kurt Vonnegut's _Slaughterhouse 5_ book? Terry ***** Scott Peterson wrote: > I don't think that's necessarily true. I remember reading a number of > books on the air war in Europe that were extremely critical of > "Bomber" Harris and the raids on Dresden. > > Ironically the one that comes immediately to mind is Kurt Vonnegut's > "Slaughterhouse 5". Another would be Martin Caiden's book on > incendiary air warfare, "A Torch to the Enemy". It didn't make many > value judgements but it didn't pull any punches in describing the > effects on the population. --- Scott, I think the post Terry forwarded was addressing only the acceptability of such criticism within Germany. But, yes, Vonnegut (who isn't likely to ever be accused of being a neo-Nazi) was harshly critical of the Dresden bombing. I wonder if the book was popular in Germany. Best, -SW -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 13 19:04:53 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:04:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The economice of Gmail, etc. In-Reply-To: <20050213175303.58684.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050213175303.58684.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420FA4D5.8050202@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Cost of the drives isn't what opportunity cost is about. Opportunity >cost is what opportunities are foregone because of a choice or event. >In respect to this situation, a mail service offering 10 gigs of space >would attract more users than one that offers 250 megs of space. This >reduces the ability of the mail server to sell ad space etc. > > I think you didn't do the math. The raw disk cost to provide 1GByte is only fifty cents. The full-up cost (computer, rackspace, etc) doubles that to a dollar, but the average user's space is far less than half full, so we are below fifty cents per user. This number is falling with time because the cost of new disk space is dropping faster than the mailboxes are filling. >Spam today represents as much as 85% of all e-mail sent and received, >according to the U.N.'s International Telecommunications Union, up from >approximately 35% just one year ago. Spam is a true global phenomenon, >not limited to the U.S. If an e-mail address exists, sooner or later >the spammers will find it. > >What this means is that the the incremental cost to yahoo for each real >message I receive is six times larger than it should be. This means >that they need to charge six times as much for the ads that appear on >the pages my browser loads than they would otherwise, they make six >times less profit, or offer me six times less features to me, their >user, or a combination of all three. Essentially spam is sucking all >the profit out of the dot com industry and is directing it to the >owners of bandwidth, who get paid whether the bandwidth is used by me >or by spammers. > > That's not how it works. The mail volume per customer is a trivial percentage is of Yahoo's cost per customer. Incidentally, Yahoo does have a critically important reason to fight spam. Spam will drive customers away from e-mail to alternatives such as blogging, thus reducing the ad clicks. This is a truly major problem for them. From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sun Feb 13 19:11:54 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:11:54 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) References: <20050213175303.58684.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c511ff$e1cb58e0$0100a8c0@kevin> > What this means is that the the incremental cost to yahoo for each real > message I receive is six times larger than it should be. This means > that they need to charge six times as much for the ads that appear on > the pages my browser loads than they would otherwise, they make six > times less profit, or offer me six times less features to me, their > user, or a combination of all three. FUZZY MATH ALERT!!!! Mike, you are better than this. There is no cost per message. Much of the cost is infrastructure. If all spam stopped, my $40 per month cable connection would not suddenly cost me $6.67 per month. I don;t have time to waste on the calculation, but I doubt that the spam factor increases the cost of my connection any more than a dollar or two per month. From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sun Feb 13 19:22:15 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:22:15 -0600 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01c51201$53ef5bf0$0100a8c0@kevin> But there is no motivation to give you anything for free. Spammers pay for internet connections too. They contribute to the overall number of users and as the number of users goes up, holding the cost per user down. Since they use a lot of bandwidth it may not actually decrease, but removing the spammers would decrease the users which in turn may cause an increase to costs to consumers. In a way, the ability to send spam creates a demand for the bandwidth that we all like to have available to us. Internet marketing firms increase the number of businesses that rely wholly or at least partially on the internet for their success. With a lower demand comes less bandwidth and hugher cost per user. Has anyone actually made an attempt to document the positive aspects of spam? Surely it can not be all negative or it would not flourish as well as it has. Does everyone so hate spam that they have a kneejerk reaction to it and never even consider what positive effects it may have? How can anyone expect to defeat it or get rid of it when they can;t even look at it objectively? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:32 PM Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) > You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so > much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could > afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > This is a valid question. We seriously overbuilt bandwidth in the > > 90s. > > So that a large percentage of current traffic is spam may not be as > > > > scary as it at first looks. My spam filters are very efficient > > currently. i only have to hand sort about a dozen messages a day. > > If > > this was true of more people the profitability would decrease. > > > > > > On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:10 PM, kevinfreels.com wrote: > > > > > I agree that viruses are vandalism, but I never recall anyone > > > referring to > > > physical junk mail in the mailbox as theft. How is SPAM any > > different? > > > Is it > > > simply a matter of volume or is there a larger reason you would > > call it > > > such? Personally I think I have spent more time reading about spam > > and > > > dealing with getting my mail through overzealous spam filters than > > I > > > actually spend deleting spam. I cen selectively delete a day's > > worth > > > of spam > > > in less time than it takes for me to walk to my mailbox and back. > > Why > > > do so > > > many people put so much time and energy into defeating it? > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mike Lorrey" > > > To: ; "ExI chat list" > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: > > > [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) > > > > > > > > >> > > >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>> > > >>> And then the last dream of 'free speech' on the Net dies with it. > > >>> The answer to spam and virus writing/dispersal lies within the > > wider > > >>> community. > > >> > > >> You don't have the right to spread viruses, or to monopolize other > > >> people's network assets. That is not free speech. > > >> > > >>> > > >>> If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly > > >>> reduced. > > >>> Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both > > advertise > > >>> via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of > > >>> assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > > >>> > > >>> Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute > > and > > >>> punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have > > been > > >>> handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. > > >> > > >> More big government solutions. > > >> > > >> Spam is theft, viruses are vandalism, as well as theft of > > services. > > >> They are property crimes, a matter of common law. A persons right > > to > > >> defend their property against attackers is inviolate. Give them > > the > > >> tools to make it happen. > > >> > > >> ===== > > >> Mike Lorrey > > >> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > > >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > > >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) > > >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> __________________________________ > > >> Do you Yahoo!? > > >> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > > >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> extropy-chat mailing list > > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 13 19:58:55 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:58:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] NYT on cryonics Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050213135324.01a47ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> A quite balanced report (in the *business* not the medical or lifestyle section): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/business/yourmoney/13freeze.html?th=&pagewanted=print&position= Inevitably, a moment of conventional absurdity creeps in: < Most people who join Alcor were previously convinced of cryonics' promise and are not frightened by the absence of a guarantee of awakening in the distant future or by the grisliness of removing their heads, Mr. Waynick said. > No comparison is drawn with the default `grisliness' of burning their heads instead in a crematorium, or of placing them underground to decay into slime and be eaten by worms. No no no, we don't want to think about that. But the tone of the essay is surprisingly free of jocosity and sneers. Damien Broderick From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 13 19:58:59 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:58:59 -0500 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <001501c511ff$e1cb58e0$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050213175303.58684.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001501c511ff$e1cb58e0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <420FB183.7030401@cox.net> kevinfreels.com wrote: >>What this means is that the the incremental cost to yahoo for each real >>message I receive is six times larger than it should be. This means >>that they need to charge six times as much for the ads that appear on >>the pages my browser loads than they would otherwise, they make six >>times less profit, or offer me six times less features to me, their >>user, or a combination of all three. >> >> > >FUZZY MATH ALERT!!!! > >Mike, you are better than this. There is no cost per message. Much of the >cost is infrastructure. If all spam stopped, my $40 per month cable >connection would not suddenly cost me $6.67 per month. I don;t have time to >waste on the calculation, but I doubt that the spam factor increases the >cost of my connection any more than a dollar or two per month. > > > Much less than that. Bandwidth cost is nearly zero percent of your cable connection cost to your provider, and e-mail is nearly zero percent of your bandwidth usage. Compared to even one small photo on a web page, a spam message is insignificant. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 20:48:14 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <001501c511ff$e1cb58e0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050213204814.60750.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > > What this means is that the the incremental cost to yahoo for each > real > > message I receive is six times larger than it should be. This means > > that they need to charge six times as much for the ads that appear > on > > the pages my browser loads than they would otherwise, they make six > > times less profit, or offer me six times less features to me, their > > user, or a combination of all three. > > FUZZY MATH ALERT!!!! > > Mike, you are better than this. There is no cost per message. Much of > the > cost is infrastructure. If all spam stopped, my $40 per month cable > connection would not suddenly cost me $6.67 per month. I don;t have > time to > waste on the calculation, but I doubt that the spam factor increases > the cost of my connection any more than a dollar or two per month. What is the main driver of infrastructure expansion? In this case, it is spam, not real user mail. Spam doesn't pay for the cost of that expansion, everybody else does. User email use remaining constant, with spam going up from 35% to 85% in one year, this means that yahoo's overall costs for bandwidth and disk space go up by 50% in 1 year without the user of that expansion paying for it, while decreasing quality of experience for the real users. You can't say that a 50% increase in RAID space and bandwidth is cheap. I see my own company's bills for both. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 20:50:56 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <002b01c51201$53ef5bf0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050213205056.61789.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > But there is no motivation to give you anything for free. Spammers > pay for internet connections too. They contribute to the overall > number of users and as the number of users goes up, holding the > cost per user down. Since they > use a lot of bandwidth it may not actually decrease, but removing the > spammers would decrease the users which in turn may cause an increase > to costs to consumers. They use far more than what they pay for. Bandwidth with email is a two ended affair. They may pay for their sending their email, but they don't pay for the reception end. Furthermore, your cute little costs per user are irrelevant unless you extrapolate it to the 20 or 30 million yahoo users. A buck here, a buck there, pretty soon you are eliminating an entire years profits. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From neptune at superlink.net Sun Feb 13 21:02:30 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pioneering Research: A Risk Worth Taking by Donald Braben Message-ID: <01ef01c5120f$558c61c0$b1893cd1@pavilion> http://www.frontier.co.uk/VentureResearch/BT.html I read a review of this in the hardcopy version of _Nature_ and it seemed interesting, though a lot of it seems to be just plain common sense. Regards, Dan Note new URL: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/ From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 13 21:10:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:10:40 +0100 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <002b01c51201$53ef5bf0$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002b01c51201$53ef5bf0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050213211040.GL1404@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:22:15PM -0600, kevinfreels.com wrote: > But there is no motivation to give you anything for free. Spammers pay for > internet connections too. They contribute to the overall number of users and No, most of them do not. A large fraction of people (no doubt, several list members here as well) host spamming malware on their computers. (No, running a virus scanner is not enough, and http://www.download.com/Ad-Aware-SE-Personal-Edition/3000-8022_4-10045910.html?part=dl-ad-aware&subj=dl&tag=top5 &Co is no panacea, either. A thorough screening and removal takes an hour or two for a professional). Spam and viruses has pushed your friends offline, Spike? Why didn't you tell them that Apple Mac doesn't have any known viruses, and there are providers who will filter your mail for you? Or mail agents which will? http://www.apple.com/macmini/ with 512 MByte RAM and internal Bluetooth/WiFi (optional for some folks) will set you back $673 (Apple Care another $149). Will work with your existing screens and USB/Bluetooth keyboards and mice. Almost completely silent, check it out. You can still keep your beige box on the network, and access it via FreeNX or VNC, if you have to run Redmond-only software. Speaking of Mac, if you have iSight, and a large library, give Delicious Library from http://delicious-monster.com/ a spin ($29 download, free demo). You catalogue your books by holding the barcode into the camera, and the system then looks up the matching info via Amazon web services, and populates your database (with cover images and description, if available). Really Quickly. > as the number of users goes up, holding the cost per user down. Since they > use a lot of bandwidth it may not actually decrease, but removing the Stop propagating the myth that spamming is a major drain on bandwidth (why do people here insist posting mere speculations?). Peer-to-peer traffic is by now the dominating traffic on the internet. And aint't that a good thing? > spammers would decrease the users which in turn may cause an increase to > costs to consumers. > > In a way, the ability to send spam creates a demand for the bandwidth that > we all like to have available to us. Internet marketing firms increase the > number of businesses that rely wholly or at least partially on the internet > for their success. With a lower demand comes less bandwidth and hugher cost > per user. Has anyone actually made an attempt to document the positive Malware removal is a veritable cottage industry. > aspects of spam? Surely it can not be all negative or it would not flourish > as well as it has. Does everyone so hate spam that they have a kneejerk > reaction to it and never even consider what positive effects it may have? > How can anyone expect to defeat it or get rid of it when they can;t even > look at it objectively? I understand there's a large ecology around processing animal excreta, and random detritus in general. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 21:42:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:42:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420FB183.7030401@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050213214231.65884.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Much less than that. Bandwidth cost is nearly zero percent of your > cable connection cost to your provider, and e-mail is nearly zero > percent of your bandwidth usage. Compared to even one small photo on > a web page, a spam message is insignificant. Spam messages today typically contain one or more graphics, if you haven't noticed. This is done as a means of verifying that the email address is active. Size is typically around 20k. One or two spam messages is insignificant. 200 spam messages a day, 365 days a year, per each one of 40 million customers, that is over 140 billion spam messages a year. Assuming the average customer checks their email once every week, this means the average daily disk load is 53 terabytes. This is not small potatos. This is 160 terabytes of RAID space needed to maintain space for spam. This is also a bandwidth load of 350 megabits per second. Also not small potatos. Add in real estate, network infrastructure, personnel to maintain all of this, you are talking an extremely significant cost of doing business that spammers impose on companies that provide email space to recipients of spam. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From glc at cartwrightlawgroup.com Sun Feb 13 21:18:32 2005 From: glc at cartwrightlawgroup.com (Gregory L. Cartwright) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:18:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> <420D6E31.7080405@cox.net> Message-ID: <004901c51211$92ca4280$2052fea9@san.rr.com> Dan, I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. I am not quite sure why you would deem this set up as a "virtual company." It's a company being run out of your house or an executive suite, much (if not all) of it being done by yourself. Nonetheless, the company exists, is registered as a corporation with some US state, presumably has an EIN, pays taxes, has at least one employee, and is providing some sort of service or product. I am an attorney and one of the major areas of my practice is helping people with start ups. Over the years, I've notice a trend especially among computer programmer types (if they are, in fact, a "type"). They seem to have more than the usual dose of DIY in them than the other entrepeneurs I deal with. I suspect that this is because so many have learned their skills more or less on their own. Most all them (even those with degrees in CS or a related field) learned most everything from a combination of hacking, reading manuals, dissecting someone else's code or from other programmers. The danger, of course, is that they then try to apply this same DIY philosphy to their businesses, often with bad outcomes. I have seem many, many victims of this mentality. Many believe that contracts for a "similar" project can be cribbed from the internet, and all they have to do is "fill in the blanks." Or they can incorporate themselves on line. Seldom, if ever, are the contracts properly drafted, often times with terrible results -- creating liabilities where none should have existed or giving away rights they should not have. The same goes with the incorporation. Much of what is done is not done correctly. Of course, not following corporate formalities properly is one of the things we look at when trying to pierce the corporate veil (meaning ignoring the corporation and going after the shareholder(s) to satisfy a judgment.) In other words, by not doing the incorporaiton correctly, you leave yourself open to potentially significant liabilites that otherwise could have been avoided. Just as I counsel my business clients to think about insurance, getting a CPA, getting a good IP contact, and a banking contact, I also suggest I handle more, rather than less. A cynical person will see this is being in my best interest, and it is. It is also in my clients' best interest as well. Your post in general though is taken for the broader truth I suspect it was meant to convey: corporations are a type of person (and pretty cool), and the transaction costs to starting and running a business HAVE been greatly reduced. No argument there. Just my two cents worth. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Clemmensen" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 6:47 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies > You can very nearly exist on completely on the Internet. > > I got laid off from a dying core router startup in February '04. > Instead of looking for a job, I spent March-July trying to start > a company. I gave up, but in the process, I learned how to create > a virtual company. This turned out to be massively simpler, cheaper, > and faster than the last time I started a company back in 1983, > even though a credible company needs more presence today than > it did back then. > > For fun, I decided from the outset to use free software unless > there was a compelling business reason to do otherwise, and to > virtualize rather than capitalize. > > It was an interesting experience, and setting up the company > was inexpensive. > > For a legitimate-looking business card, you need the following: > Company name > Your name > your title > business address > email address > URL > phone number > Fax number > and of course the business card itself. > > Name: Crystre corporation. Rather than pay for a trademark search, > I did a set of Google search until I found a name I liked that had no Google > hits. > > Phone number: My very own toll-free phone number and human answering > service. > found on the web and comparison shopped in less than one hour. > > Fax Number: My very own toll-free fax-to/from e-mail gateway, found > on the web and comparison shopped in less than 30 minutes > > My name (from my parents, but take your choice.) > My title: Pick one. > > Email: This is slightly more complex. I decided that I wanted serious > control of my web presence, but for cheap. I elected to rent a virtual > server > to which I have root access and complete control. I then installed a web > server and > a mail server. > > URL: I shopped around on the web for a name registrar, and registered > five domain names: > crystre.com, .org, .biz., .info. and ,net. I found a free DNS service > and pointed the > domains at my virtual server. > > Business address: I found the nearest UPS store on the web. > > Business card: searched the web, found a small-volume printer with a web > interface, > designed a card on my Linux machine using Gimp, and sent them the image. > > Incorporation: searched the web for help. found multiple incorporation > services, picked one, > filled in the forms on the web. > > Accounting: Do not even think about starting a business unless you have > accounting training or > you are willing to pay a competent accountant. Pick an accountant you > trust, and do what your > accountant tells you to do. In my case, I've done it before and I have a > friend who is a CPA and > likes to help new starts. He is retired and a Windows guy, but was > willing to work with me > "for fun" and experimented. I installed SQLedger. (open source) > > Banking: Web bank. > > Corporate credit card: Web. > > Billing for all of the above: I started using my personal credit card > with automatic (web) billing. > After I activated the corporate credit card I shifted the accounts to > it, still with automatic billing. > > Conclusion. The web has radically simplified the creation of a > Corporation, even as it raised the > expectations of the people the corporation must interact with. A > Corporation is a "legal person" > so in some sense I was creating a new "life form." > > Lessons learned: > > If I were to try this again, I would do a few things differently: > > First, the incorporator did not add a lot of value. Having done this > once, I now know how to > incorporate without help by finding the correct forms, etc., on the > state government sites. > > I would use a different domain name service. the one I picked is horrible. > > I have abandoned my answering service. It was the largest monthly > expense, and it was > awkward. I have shifted to a Vonage account with voice mail. This choice > depends critically > on what your customers expect. I would now re-examine the combined > "office presence" > companies with a view to finding one that provides fax, phone answering, > and physical mail > forwarding. > > My running costs are below $100.00 per month. > > Why is this Extropian??! > two reasons: practical and theoretical. > > Practical: You might want to create a company. It's not hard any more. > > Theoretical: I created a new legal person with considerable power. > Although I've nearly abandoned > it, it lives on in a manner that would have been unthinkable 20 years > ago. With a tiny bit more effort > this corporate person would be a lot more active, with e-mail > responders, blogs, wikis, etc. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 13 21:59:27 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:59:27 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5eedb5382c46f73fc0ae50b4c08b7eef@mac.com> Apparently they make more off the spam than they would by giving you 10 gigs to play in. :-) On Feb 12, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > You aren't looking at the opportunity cost. If yahoo didn't have so > much of its bandwidth (and disk space) soaked up by spam, it could > afford to give me 10 gigs of disk space for free. > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 13 22:15:15 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:15:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kurzweil Article Retread In-Reply-To: <00ba01c51192$304d8010$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <00ba01c51192$304d8010$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <02a6306ef574ffc807aff9c07ca5f9db@mac.com> Either we will change/overcome human nature or else the species is quite likely to die out entirely. Staying as we are without species wide calamity is not in the cards. If we don't mind posts-apocalyptic hell at best with billions dead and our technological base destroyed or the death of the entire species then all we have to do is do nothing but what chattering monkeys do best. Those who believe the status quo is fine where even the haves fall apart and die after scant decades of existence while billions live in unspeakable conditions will undoubtedly vote implicitly if not explicitly to do nothing. It is they who are the mad fools. - samantha On Feb 12, 2005, at 10:06 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > I've seen variations on this article on Kurzweil lately, and this one > is on Yahoo today (heads-up came from another email list to which I > belong, and Kurzweil was described as extremely intelligent, but > possessing off-the-wall ideas - the subject line was, in fact, "Even > the REALLY smart can be fooled ..."): > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20050213/ > ap_on_hi_te/one_man_s_immortality > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/5ja56 > > Observe the last two paragraphs: > > "The instinct to preserve individuality, and to gain advantage for > yourself and children, would survive any breakthrough into biological > immortality - which Silver doesn't think is possible. The gap between > the haves and have-nots would widen and Kurzweil's vision of a united > humanity would become ever more elusive, he said. > 'I think it would require a change in human nature,' Silver said, 'and > I don't think people want to do that.'" > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 13 23:15:11 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:15:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies In-Reply-To: <004901c51211$92ca4280$2052fea9@san.rr.com> References: <200502120056.j1C0trs05977@tick.javien.com> <420D6E31.7080405@cox.net> <004901c51211$92ca4280$2052fea9@san.rr.com> Message-ID: <420FDF7F.4090506@cox.net> Gregory L. Cartwright wrote: >Dan, > > I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. > > I am not quite sure why you would deem this set up as a "virtual >company." It's a company being run out of your house or an executive suite, >much (if not all) of it being done by yourself. Nonetheless, the company >exists, is registered as a corporation with some US state, presumably has an >EIN, pays taxes, has at least one employee, and is providing some sort of >service or product. > > I am an attorney and one of the major areas of my practice is helping >people with start ups. Over the years, I've notice a trend especially among >computer programmer types (if they are, in fact, a "type"). They seem to >have more than the usual dose of DIY in them than the other entrepeneurs I >deal with. I suspect that this is because so many have learned their skills >more or less on their own. Most all them (even those with degrees in CS or >a related field) learned most everything from a combination of hacking, >reading manuals, dissecting someone else's code or from other programmers. >The danger, of course, is that they then try to apply this same DIY >philosphy to their businesses, often with bad outcomes. > > > I agree completely. I do not pretend to be a lawyer or an accountant, and I will (and do) seek competent professional help in these areas. I have done this twice before, in 1983 and 1985. I would not even consider doing the incorporation myself without the prior experience, nor will I negotiate any but the most basic contracts without legal review. I also know from (other people's) experience that it is very easy to make expensive mistakes, especially in the "trivial details" of incorporation. You are also correct that it's not a "virtual" company. It's a real company with very little in the way of physical existence. The thrust of my post is about ease of bringing the company into existence in areas other than the act of incorporation. This change (since 1985) is astonishing, and is entirely due to the web. If you look at the total man hours needed to become "real" you will see that the corporate paperwork is a relatively small part of the total effort. It's all about the increasing ease of finding information. I believe this trend will continue and that it is in fact at the heart of acceleration toward the singularity. As software becomes more sophisticated, it will eventually replace more and more of the information manipulation tasks now done by humans. Telephone operators went first, then clerks, typists, and secretaries. now ticket agents and travel agents are feeling the heat. Eventually we will get to programmers and lawyers, but we have a way to go yet. From reason at longevitymeme.org Sun Feb 13 23:27:57 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:27:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kurzweil Article Retread In-Reply-To: <02a6306ef574ffc807aff9c07ca5f9db@mac.com> Message-ID: Check out the live vote on MSNBC in connection to this one. Vote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6959776/ Article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6959575/ --- Do you think humans will find a way to become effectively immortal? * 1407 responses Yes, within 20 years. 14% Yes, but it will take much longer than 20 years. 41% No, it'd be nice, but it's not possible. 24% No, it is immoral and not meant to be. 14% None of the above. 6% --- Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 13 23:38:50 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:38:50 -0500 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213214231.65884.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050213214231.65884.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420FE50A.5090108@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Much less than that. Bandwidth cost is nearly zero percent of your >>cable connection cost to your provider, and e-mail is nearly zero >>percent of your bandwidth usage. Compared to even one small photo on >>a web page, a spam message is insignificant. >> >> > > > Mike, I agree that spam is bad, and I would like to apply some form of retroactive birth control to spammers. I loathe them. But you are mistakenly focusing on the wrong parts of the problem, which means you are not focusing on the right parts. The fundamental danger to society is that spam is polluting the commons and ruining the e-mail experience for customers. This in turn will drive customers away from e-mail, which in turn inhibits the flow of information. And oh by the way, reduced the revenues of entities like Yahoo that have found legitimate ways to make money by providing e-mail service. By polluting the information commons and inhibiting information flow, Spammers act as a drag on intellectual progress. >Spam messages today typically contain one or more graphics, if you >haven't noticed. This is done as a means of verifying that the email >address is active. Size is typically around 20k. > > Those pictures are not being stored on the e-mail disks. If they were they wold not serve the purpose you mention. Furthermore anyone with any sense turns off automatic download, so they are not part of the bandwidth problem either. >One or two spam messages is insignificant. 200 spam messages a day, 365 >days a year, per each one of 40 million customers, that is over 140 >billion spam messages a year. > >Assuming the average customer checks their email once every week, this >means the average daily disk load is 53 terabytes. This is not small >potatos. This is 160 terabytes of RAID space needed to maintain space >for spam. This is also a bandwidth load of 350 megabits per second. >Also not small potatos. > > Sorry, Mike. the aggregate is still trivial, and it's still less that a dollar per user for the disk space. Long-haul bandwidth process are still falling, so the only real cost is in the local loop.This means the biggest hit is on the individual end customer's local bandwidth. >Add in real estate, network infrastructure, personnel to maintain all >of this, you are talking an extremely significant cost of doing >business that spammers impose on companies that provide email space to >recipients of spam. > > > All paid for by the $1.00 per customer. From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Feb 13 23:44:45 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:44:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kurzweil Article Retread In-Reply-To: References: <02a6306ef574ffc807aff9c07ca5f9db@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050213184353.02d4e2a8@mail.gmu.edu> Amazingly reasonable response, I'd say. At 06:27 PM 2/13/2005, you wrote: >Check out the live vote on MSNBC in connection to this one. >Vote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6959776/ >Article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6959575/ > >Do you think humans will find a way to become effectively immortal? >* 1407 responses >Yes, within 20 years. >14% >Yes, but it will take much longer than 20 years. >41% >No, it'd be nice, but it's not possible. >24% >No, it is immoral and not meant to be. >14% >None of the above. >6% Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Feb 14 00:33:50 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:33:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kurzweil Article Retread References: <00ba01c51192$304d8010$6600a8c0@brainiac> <02a6306ef574ffc807aff9c07ca5f9db@mac.com> Message-ID: <002201c5122c$db03fda0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:15 PM > Either we will change/overcome human nature or else the species is quite > likely to die out entirely. Staying as we are without species wide > calamity is not in the cards. If we don't mind posts-apocalyptic hell at > best with billions dead and our technological base destroyed or the death > of the entire species then all we have to do is do nothing but what > chattering monkeys do best. > > Those who believe the status quo is fine where even the haves fall apart > and die after scant decades of existence while billions live in > unspeakable conditions will undoubtedly vote implicitly if not explicitly > to do nothing. It is they who are the mad fools. I don't know how many people on this list are signed up to get emails from the Quackwatch list, but it may interest some here to do so ... just to see what kind of discussions are inspired by subjects like life extension. So far, the dialogue about Kurzweil has been on the order of: "Old age isn't necessarily something to be desired. Death comes as a merciful deliverer to many." If you would be interested in joining (yeah, I know ...) one more discussion list, you may want to take a look at: http://www.quackwatch.org/ Lots of intelligent people on that list, but they haven't been exposed to the likes of you ...! Olga Olga >> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20050213/ >> ap_on_hi_te/one_man_s_immortality >> >> or >> >> http://tinyurl.com/5ja56 >> >> Observe the last two paragraphs: >> >> "The instinct to preserve individuality, and to gain advantage for >> yourself and children, would survive any breakthrough into biological >> immortality - which Silver doesn't think is possible. The gap between the >> haves and have-nots would widen and Kurzweil's vision of a united >> humanity would become ever more elusive, he said. >> 'I think it would require a change in human nature,' Silver said, 'and I >> don't think people want to do that.'" >> >> Olga >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 13 23:28:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:28:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked In-Reply-To: <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050208124939.80733.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <67c3dfaccd1335beb12374a8b55699c7@mac.com> <004201c50e46$73614020$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213152217.028d7168@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Years ago I took a workshop on relationships and some pat formulas were presented regarding the emotions: when excited and feel in agreement, that's fun when excited and feel disagreement, that's anger when not excited and in agreement, that's peace when not excited and disagree, that's depression Outrage requires a target that may respond. We all know by now that the media/govt/industrial complex does not respond, so why bother with outrage? ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 13 23:45:34 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:45:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <20050211023145.29122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420C256B.3010302@humanenhancement.com> <470a3c52050210233173c2626f@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050211064839.0289fea0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213154341.028e4e70@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I, for one, can do without most of the politics. I like the list for the ideas which appear from time to time, and the pointers to interesting things. >Thanks Giulio's, nicely stated. But, we could also have a politics list >if the majority wants it. > >Natasha Vita-More ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 14 00:10:16 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:10:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> References: <200502120203.j1C22ws12897@tick.javien.com> <200502120440.j1C4ens30544@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213155824.028e57f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> A bias in first digits of prime numbers does not lead to psi for me, it is a characteristic of the base system in use, and the decreasing frequecy of primes as they become larger, as has been well pointed out here. Physical non nanotechnical devices are indeed biased, but this is imperfection of construction IMO. Electronic devices are better, but still until computation is based on individual particles, the same problem applies. This bias does not refute the notion that quantum processes are truly random, and I cannot relate it to psi. If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! The whole POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better form of experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which evolved along with the meat. Again, I see no need for psi in this. I do note that we are, via technology, creating many things which have the function of psi. And then some. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 14 00:45:10 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:45:10 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213211040.GL1404@leitl.org> References: <20050213043215.22476.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002b01c51201$53ef5bf0$0100a8c0@kevin> <20050213211040.GL1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213164334.028f0ad8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I use sbcglobal.net, and they are excellent in removing spam. The real bandwidth loss is my time with the del key, a nonexpandable resource until I upload..... >Stop propagating the myth that spamming is a major drain on bandwidth (why do >people here insist posting mere speculations?). Peer-to-peer traffic is by >now the dominating traffic on the internet. And aint't that a good thing? > >Eugen* Leitl leitl ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Feb 14 04:11:58 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:11:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] The fright of our lives Message-ID: <4210250E.D862378D@mindspring.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1411595,00.html The fright of our lives Terrorism, nuclear bombs, paedophiles ... in Fear, Joanna Bourke argues we should assess risks, not quiver before them Peter Preston Sunday February 13, 2005 Observer Fear: A Cultural History by Joanna Bourke Virago ?25, pp512 When, through a lifetime, are human beings free from fear? Only, perhaps, when they're fresh from the womb. Only through the few short years of childhood before the media and the experts and the politicians clutter their innocence with threats, real or imagined. Then, too soon, such innocence is lost. Then, willy-nilly, they count the zero sum of all fears every waking moment. Well, it's a theory, sympathetically reprised here by Professor Bourke and in no sense outlandish. Fear is good, up to a point. Fear is one great spur to creativity. Fear involves consequences that help order society. Fear walks with us along many of the defining tracks of civilisation. Fear is the permanent partner of love. But we do not instinctively sense any benignity to it. We shiver in alarm, sink into phobias, writhe in savage anxiety day after day. Often, our world seems to close in around us, on the brink of ending with every new TV bulletin as street violence rockets or illegal immigrants drain the NHS dry. A 24-hour binge of imagined mayhem. For fear, at its core, is the prospect of death, a glimpse of the unknown and unknowable that may also be the last thing we see. Shall we hold our children again? Will they come home from school safely? What lurks out in the darkness? Is that the pain of cancer gnawing inside us? Fear is a driving emotion. So fear rules and it is not altogether OK. Joanna Bourke, graceful, shrewd, brilliantly compendious in research, has written a history as topical as your morning newspaper and as relevant as the Home Secretary's last dodgy announcement in the Commons. Time and again, putting American and British experiences together, she raises a wry, cool eyebrow at the hyperbole of hysteria. She assesses risk rather than quavers before it. She puts fear in its proper place - as part of our pattern of life. Two kinds of delirium resonate most strongly through these pages. One, naturally and insistently, is terror in the wake of 9/11, which, in turn, didn't fly out of a clear blue sky. Years before 2001, Bourke argues, looking back, you could gather the portents. That 1990 headline in the National Review warning 'The Muslims Are Coming! The Muslims Are Coming!'. John L Esposito declaring in 1992 that the 'Green Menace [of Islam] will replace the Red Menace of World Communism'. The stage was set for fresh horrors and the media were all on message. The first President Bush, come 1990, was hailing 'the age of the terrorist'. The second President Bush, come 2002, was looking at anthrax spore scares and opining that 'anyone that evil cannot be American'. And here, dropping pat into place, was David Balkin's article, 'Time to Excise This Cancer of Terrorism', with its modest warning that 'every psycho malcontent in the Arab world wants a piece of us ... they are schizophrenic cavemen with 21st-century capacities'. Cue Hollywood, working 24 hours a day on assault and battery. Open the gates at Guantanamo Bay. Vote Arnie for governor. Yet just 17 people were killed inside America by terrorists between 1980 and 1985, barely more than in a single freeway pile-up. Contrast that, Bourke notes, with the New York Times printing an average of four stories about terrorism every publishing day. (All the news that chills, we print.) Outside the US between 1989 and 1992, only 34 Americans died, but more than 1,300 books were classified under 'terrorism' or 'terrorists' in US libraries. CIA estimates of 'terrorist incidents' had long since doubled by the simple expedient of recording hoaxes and unsourced threats. Of course, everything can be turned into questions of fact. 9/11 was fact, but so were the relatively puny statistics of threat that surrounded it. Saddam Hussein was fact, but so were the empty arsenals which his WMDs never filled. Bourke wants us to keep our balance, to see fear for what it is. She recalls the furore over Orson Welles and his radio War of the Worlds. She looks askance at the wilder shores of al-Qaeda. She remembers much of the Cold War for its empty inanities. She scorns a fear of crime which makes us lock our doors after dusk and sit in front of a TV purveying ever more frightening tales of law and disorder. And, in particular, she holds up for inspection those prophets of science whose wisdom flakes as time goes by, the curse, if you will, of the expert witness. Stack up some of that expertise across the decades. Rape? Take Susan Brownmiller, in 1975, asserting that 'early man's discovery that his genitalia could serve as a weapon to generate fear must rank as one of the most important discoveries of prehistoric times, along with the use of fire and the first crude stone axe'. Bourke raises her coolest eyebrow. This is 'clearly nonsense': it 'ignores the complexity of culture and ideology'. Equally frail, maybe, is the panic over child sex abuse. Just look (another arched eyebrow) at the morass of supposedly relevant figures on offer. Was the total of English and Welsh victims 3,500 a year as the 21st century began - or 72,600? Was the American total in the Seventies some 4,300 cases at most, or 44,700 or 210,000, as other surveys claimed? At any rate, 'whether represented as a apathetic specimen of a man [Fifties], sex fiend [Seventies] or serial paedophile [Eighties], the shadowy figure of the child abuser was portrayed as unstoppable, incapable of treatment and worthy only of prison'. Consider groups such as Greenpeace, generating 'enormous mistrust and alarm about big business and science, but failing to muster a vast band willing actively to support their activities'. See how 'toxins must be flushed from the system' as 'fears of premature ageing take the place reserved for fears of premature burial'. Think how society has succumbed to psychology, so that crime no longer 'happens' but is always 'happening' and to be raped means becoming a 'rape victim'. Do not, though, get the impression that Bourke is merely intent on a shibboleth search-and-destroy mission. She is bent on analysis, not polemic; she relishes connections, not annihilation. Who do we blame for our crushing burden of fear? Editors may wince as they see what a 'story' consists of. Are politicians fear-mongers or victims themselves? Why does Hollywood wax so fat on catastrophe? Is the thrill of fear somehow akin to the thrill of sex? This is a journey full of wit and scholarship, an enthralling read that makes you inspect your own psyche and a global warning. Turn inwards and you may never be quite so afraid again. Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005 Leslie Ellen Jones, Ph.D. Jack of All Trades and Doctor of Folklore -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 14 06:21:19 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:21:19 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies(wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050213211040.GL1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200502140621.j1E6LPs23398@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl ... > > Spam and viruses has pushed your friends offline, Spike? Why didn't you > tell them that Apple Mac doesn't have any known viruses, and there are providers who will > filter your mail for you? Or mail agents which will? I shoulda. I had a mac until 1999, and I liked it. Very competent hardware, never did get viruses. Eugen, I recall you are a newlywed, so happy Valentines Day to you both and happy 400th anniversary of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra's novel Don Quixote de la Mancha, one of my faves. My bride and I decided to make it a Rocinante weekend (Rocinante being the name of Quixote's gallant steed and my bike.) Eliezer assures us that there is an infinite amount of fun. I believe that if not infinite, there exists a very large amount of it, because I've had so much more of it than I deserve. {8^D spike From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 14 06:43:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <467635c7868c3b8a0482f60f7e057f05@mac.com> Message-ID: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> > Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > First congratulations on the biggest grand construction in support of a > hypothesis that I have encountered in some time. This was a truly > surprising way to pull this result out of the sim notion. It surprised me too. My example of the excess 1s over 9s in the leading digits of primes was a bad example however, for in reading some of the responses, I saw that several thought I was suggesting something other than what I meant. I was not saying I knew how to beat the lottery. I was using that as an example of a type of meta-knowledge. What I should have made clear was that oddball results in quantum mechanics may suggest a meta-sim. Your mileage may vary with this argument. Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. So where are the others? > > The idea that a post Singularity civilization would act this way is a > weak link. That we greatly esteem that quantity (and quality) of > sentience that is our own does not say that they would do so. Being > awash in much greater intelligence and likely able to easily create > autonomous intelligences of any desired capacity for any desired > purpose, it is not clear to me why biological alien evolved > intelligences would be much more than a mere momentary curiosity easily > satisfied without seamlessly uploading the entire lot. In all these kinds of arguments we are stuck with a maddening problem: we know of only one sentient tech-capable species. We have nothing with which to compare ourselves. If I were capable of doing so, I would wander about the galaxy looking for interesting species to upload and run sims. Granted it is pure speculation that another advanced species would do so. Star Trek TNG has the character Q, who behaves a lot like the way I can imagine he would, given his power. He likes to take species and put them in situations, to experiment. I see uploading as the best way to experiment. If we could make a virtual universe that could be populated with virtual intelligence, well of course we would do it. I must assume that other species would act likewise, and that somewhere somewhen, they have, and that is how we got here. Any evidence of supernatural phenomena then becomes evidence of the existence of a meta-sim. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 07:23:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:23:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [wta-talk] Two anniversaries: Galileo and Bruno In-Reply-To: <20050213122441.M10226@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050213122441.M10226@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <470a3c520502132323ad173e5@mail.gmail.com> This is very, very true. I often noticed that really smart and creative people, besides developing new ideas that challenge the accepted worldview and make others intellectually uneasy, can be a real pain in the neck as persons: no diplomacy, no manners, arrogant, abrasive, ready to insult everyone etc. Perhaps because at some point they become really fed up with our inability to understand that 2+2 =4. Giordano Bruno must have been one of this kind. What they (and us) need is an interface layer of moderately smart and creative people able to understand what they mean and translate it to a format understandable by the rest of us. G. On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:30:34 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > The clergy of his time weren't dummies; they had their own "grand > unified theory" of how things worked and how people should > behave. If we have made progress since that era, we owe it less > to our improved orthodoxies than to the way we've learned to > _tap_ the creative energies of those who defy the intellectual > status quo, instead of killing them. Slowly, often grudgingly, > society discovered that there is something to value in the > rancorous, difficult, blasphemous few who gleefully challenge > authority. Those who rip away the set pieces of any conservative > worldview to reveal disturbing truths that lie beneath and > beyond. Such people, though irksome, are also responsible for > much progress in the world. From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Mon Feb 14 11:18:05 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:18:05 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> References: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421088ED.7070803@optusnet.com.au> spike wrote: > Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some > sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one > observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the > cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that > be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species > to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones > to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. > So where are the others? > One thing that I sometimes wonder about is the possible connection between gamma ray bursters, and zero point energy schemes. I have read reports of truly staggering quantities of energy being bound up in the vacuum quantum flux, and that the source of gamma ray bursters is unknown. What if there is an easy way to tap zero point energy, but there is a runaway effect until the tapper is obliterated by a black hole formed by the sheer energy density. Net result would be aliens get a little more advanced than we are (because we haven't done it yet) and then obliterate all life in their entire region of space. -David. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 14:47:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies(wasRE:[extropy-chat]Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <200502140621.j1E6LPs23398@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050214144729.89873.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl > ... > > > > Spam and viruses has pushed your friends offline, Spike? Why didn't > you > > tell them that Apple Mac doesn't have any known viruses, and there > are > providers who will > > filter your mail for you? Or mail agents which will? > > I shoulda. I had a mac until 1999, and I liked it. Very > competent hardware, never did get viruses. Well, I can't say *never*, as I received one of the first trojans back before any of the so-called experts would admit that trojans were possible, but I haven't been infected since '96. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From dwish at indco.net Mon Feb 14 15:00:27 2005 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:00:27 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies In-Reply-To: <420FDF7F.4090506@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502141455.j1EEt4d7005782@br549.indconet.com> I hope they every get to programmers....lol But I think the pointy heads in the upstairs offices will never want to or that can't program their VCR, much less database driven apps. Long life the Dilberts. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Clemmensen Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:15 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Virtual companies Gregory L. Cartwright wrote: >Dan, > > I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. > > I am not quite sure why you would deem this set up as a "virtual >company." It's a company being run out of your house or an executive suite, >much (if not all) of it being done by yourself. Nonetheless, the company >exists, is registered as a corporation with some US state, presumably has an >EIN, pays taxes, has at least one employee, and is providing some sort of >service or product. > > I am an attorney and one of the major areas of my practice is helping >people with start ups. Over the years, I've notice a trend especially among >computer programmer types (if they are, in fact, a "type"). They seem to >have more than the usual dose of DIY in them than the other entrepeneurs I >deal with. I suspect that this is because so many have learned their skills >more or less on their own. Most all them (even those with degrees in CS or >a related field) learned most everything from a combination of hacking, >reading manuals, dissecting someone else's code or from other programmers. >The danger, of course, is that they then try to apply this same DIY >philosphy to their businesses, often with bad outcomes. > > > I agree completely. I do not pretend to be a lawyer or an accountant, and I will (and do) seek competent professional help in these areas. I have done this twice before, in 1983 and 1985. I would not even consider doing the incorporation myself without the prior experience, nor will I negotiate any but the most basic contracts without legal review. I also know from (other people's) experience that it is very easy to make expensive mistakes, especially in the "trivial details" of incorporation. You are also correct that it's not a "virtual" company. It's a real company with very little in the way of physical existence. The thrust of my post is about ease of bringing the company into existence in areas other than the act of incorporation. This change (since 1985) is astonishing, and is entirely due to the web. If you look at the total man hours needed to become "real" you will see that the corporate paperwork is a relatively small part of the total effort. It's all about the increasing ease of finding information. I believe this trend will continue and that it is in fact at the heart of acceleration toward the singularity. As software becomes more sophisticated, it will eventually replace more and more of the information manipulation tasks now done by humans. Telephone operators went first, then clerks, typists, and secretaries. now ticket agents and travel agents are feeling the heat. Eventually we will get to programmers and lawyers, but we have a way to go yet. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 15:02:38 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:02:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] HIV Transformed Into Cancer Seeking Missile Message-ID: <470a3c5205021407024a2296a9@mail.gmail.com> Researchers in the U.S. have transformed HIV into a harmless virus that can seek out cancer cells. The next step would be to insert a gene that could destroy cancer cells on contact. The team said gene therapy has been hampered for the past 20 years due to the lack of a good carrier that can target a precise location. "The disarmed AIDS virus acts like a Trojan horse, transporting therapeutic agents to a targeted part of the body, such as the lungs, where tumors often spread," said researcher Dr. Irvin Chen, from UCLA's Aids Institute. The team conducted experiments using the cancer seeking HIV missile on laboratory mice with a form of skin cancer, called melanoma, that had spread to the lungs. The team injected the harmless virus into the animal's bloodstream and used a special optical camera to track the carrier's movement. The virus homed straight to the cancer cells in the lungs of the mice. "Our next step will be to test whether we can direct therapeutic genes to the precise location where cancer cells reside," said Dr. Chen. Dr. Chen's report appears in the online edition of Nature Medicine. http://www.healthtalk.ca/cancer_hiv_021405_39933.php From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 15:38:19 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:38:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] TESTING DARWIN - Digital Life Message-ID: <470a3c5205021407386468e5b7@mail.gmail.com> If you want to find alien life-forms, hold off on booking that trip to the moons of Saturn. You may only need to catch a plane to East Lansing, Michigan. The aliens of East Lansing are not made of carbon and water. They have no DNA. Billions of them are quietly colonizing a cluster of 200 computers in the basement of the Plant and Soil Sciences building at Michigan State University. To peer into their world, however, you have to walk a few blocks west on Wilson Road to the engineering department and visit the Digital Evolution Laboratory. Here you'll find a crew of computer scientists, biologists, and even a philosopher or two gazing at computer monitors, watching the evolution of bizarre new life-forms. These are digital organisms-strings of commands-akin to computer viruses. Each organism can produce tens of thousands of copies of itself within a matter of minutes. Unlike computer viruses, however, they are made up of digital bits that can mutate in much the same way DNA mutates. A software program called Avida allows researchers to track the birth, life, and death of generation after generation of the digital organisms by scanning columns of numbers that pour down a computer screen like waterfalls. http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2005/articles_2005_Avida.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Feb 14 18:43:01 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <421088ED.7070803@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050214184301.13873.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > One thing that I sometimes wonder about is the > possible > connection between gamma ray bursters, and zero > point > energy schemes. I have read reports of truly > staggering > quantities of energy being bound up in the vacuum > quantum > flux, and that the source of gamma ray bursters is > unknown. > What if there is an easy way to tap zero point > energy, but > there is a runaway effect until the tapper is > obliterated > by a black hole formed by the sheer energy density. Very unlikely. Zero point energy can't realistically be tapped except by very small mechanisms, which would be at ground zero of any such obliteration. The instant they were destroyed, the feedback would stop. Spillover effects might destroy things for a few millimeters around. Any development program would start with a few test arrays, to work out the process; these would be hit well before mass production could start. (Or, if it did go into mass production, the feedback would likely hit before too many units were produced.) The net result would be far too little power to produce gamma ray bursters. IMO, far more likely - not that this is saying much, given the low probabilities involved either way - is spillover from technologically advanced civilization that we simply don't yet comprehend, for instance byproducts of FTL travel or communication (say, gamma rays are a byproduct of wormhole creation). Far more likely still are natural processes that, again, we don't yet understand. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Feb 14 19:01:55 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050213050257.1024.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050214190155.18903.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Here's one place where the chain breaks down. See > > Drake's equation, and the debates surrounding it, > > for reasons why we very well could be the first > > technologically advanced civilization in the > universe. > > On the contrary, the Drake equation has been getting > a drumming the > past few years Nit: "the idea that the Drake equation shows how unlikely life can be has been getting". Nothing that you mentioned even touches on the validity of the Drake equation itself; they just make arguments about some of the variables. > as the number of extrasolar planets > rises, as martian > fossil meteorites are found (and solid evidence of > water is found on > Mars) along with subsurface oceans on not only > Europa but Ganymede as > well, it is clear that a) life is common wherever > planets allow it, b) > planets are common, and given how young our solar > system is the > supposition we are the first techno civilization in > this galaxy is > strained, the idea we are first in the whole > universe is impossible. >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation : > N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L > > where: > > N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations in > our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to > communicate > > and > > R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy > fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets > ne is average number of planets which can > potentially support life per star that has planets > fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on > to develop life > fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on > to develop intelligent life > fc is the fraction of the above which are willing > and able to communicate > L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization Your points argue for high (near 1) fp and fl. For this case, we're assuming an essentially indefinite L (L=~1, not infinity, since L is a fraction of the lifetime of the civilization's own universe), and fc refers to civilizations that expand through the universe and upload other sentient races rather than civilizations that communicate. R*, we have pretty good data on too. This leaves out ne (even if life flourishes everywhere it can flourish, that doesn't mean it can flourish on all planets), fi, and fc (which spike asserted to be 1, but gave no evidence for that assertion). > > This assumes you know the physics of the world > > running the sim. Maybe they can have perfectly > > randomness, and the mechanical non-randomness is > an > > artifact of the sim? > > You are forgetting the turtles. More than one turtle > per universe means > a veritable plethora of turtlesque universes. Sorry to call a spade a spade, but that's a non-sequiter. Speaking in metaphor doesn't prove or disprove anything. (Now, maybe if you clarified exactly what you meant by "turtles" - not just the old story about "it's turtles all the way down", but what you meant it to mean in this case...) From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Feb 15 02:21:36 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:21:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: UFO Research Software? Message-ID: <42115CB0.20ECDD17@mindspring.com> From: Isaac Koi To: Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:45:46 -0000 Subject: Re: UFO Research Software? >From: Nikolay Subbotin >To: ufoupdates at virtuallystrange.net >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:24:41 +0500 >Subject: UFO Research Software? >Who uses special UFO research software? I cannot find any >software for professional UFO research. A lot depends upon what "UFO research software" you want. When the topic of UFO databases and software arose a few weeks ago, I posted a list of references to discussions of some of the major existing databases (including UFOCAT and Larry Hatch's *U* database). Since the topic has recurred already, I'm giving in to the temptation to send a more comprehensive email. However, as always, time is a bit limited right now so I've had to leave quite a bit of material until I return to this topic upon finishing my damn Chronology. As a starting point, I find it useful to split up the various types of software/databases that ufologists use. In this email, I'll divide my comments into the following categories: A. Databases of UFO reports; B. Databases of other information; C. Expert systems to assist in identifying possible stimuli for a report; D. Other software to assist in investigations and research. At the very minimum, I consider this exercise to be worthwhile because it may assist some of the various individuals that appear to be putting considerable time and effort into developing their own databases/software. Also, the usefulness of databases and other software merely as bibliographical tools should not be underestimated given the sheer mass of literature and documentation relating to UFO reports. However, before launching into these topics, I'll just note a few cautionary remarks in relation to the use of computers within ufology: (1) "Computers are a powerful tool which properly used will give enormous assistance to ufologists the world over... but it should be recognised from the outset that they alone will not answer the questions. [T]he UFO enigma will not be answered by computers but by the talented and intuitive thinking of human minds" per Spencer, John and Vallee, Jacques and Verga, Maurizio in "UFO: 1947-1987" (1987) (edited by Hilary Evans with John Spencer) at page 245 of the Fortean Tomes softcover edition (in Chapter 3.6, entitled "Computers in Ufology"). (2) "Poor data will merely produce the wrong answer more quickly on a computer. No technology or technique will compensate for deficient data." per Peter Hill, quoted in Phenomenon (1988) (edited by John Spencer and Hilary Evans) at page 224. (3) "The well-known phrase "garbage in, garbage out' applies equally well to ufology." per Gamble, Stephen and Wootten, Michael and Danby, J and Smith, Willy and Kuhlemann, Bertil in "Phenomenon" (1988) (edited by John Spencer and Hilary Evans) at pages 224-237 of the MacDonald hardback edition (in Part 3, in the unnumbered chapter entitled "Harnessing the Computer"). (4) See also the remarks by Brad Sparks on UpDates at the following link: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jan/m09-010.shtml With these caveats firmly in mind, I turn to the categories I outlined above. A. Databases of UFO reports Given that many ufologists (and non-ufologists) in modern society appear to be almost compulsive list-makers, it is not surprising that there are already a wide variety of dabases of UFO Reports. Heck, there are already a considerable number of lists of databases (in effect, databases of databases - or "databases squared"). What is more surprising is that these databases rarely seem to be referred to by other individuals that are considering developing their own databases. If I were to attempt to prepare a comprehensive list of databases from scratch, I would attempt to divide existing databases into various categories (e.g. according to the method of storage or access (such as online, computerised and paper based), or according to the type of data stored (e.g. worldwide reports, regional reports, or specialised (e.g. pilot sightings, EM reports) and gradually build up a comprehensive list of databases within each catagory. However, given the existence of some attempts to list databases already, I think a more efficient and systematic approach would be to begin by starting by producing a list of references to lists of databases (in effect, a database of databases of databases, or a list of databases squared, or a "database cubed"). I'll begin with a list of online lists of databases (most of which are useful as guides to databases available online, but are rather weak in relation to databases supplied on CD or on paper): (a) Mark Cashman's list of catalogues at the following link, which is clearly presented and useful (but rather limited): http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/index.htm (b) Potentially more comprehensive, but a bit hit and miss in its coverage, is the following page on Francis Ridge's "NICAP" website. That page refers to various categories or "groups" of sightings. Clicking on a "group" displays a page relating to that category of sighting that generally begins with a list of databases or analyses relevant to that category. http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/special.htm (c) Project 1947 provides a list of catalogues (which appears to be generally limited to those by contributors to the Project) at: http://www.project1947.com/47cats.htm (d) A slightly bare list of databases (which includes several regional databases rarely mentioned elsewhere) is provided by SUFOI at the following link: http://www.sufoi.dk/artik-sn/new12-08.htm (e) Few of the many computer software projects currently in development give any indication that existing databases/software were reviewed before launching into the new project. One of the few exceptions is the RR0 project being run by Jerome Beau, which not only includes a limited list of "alternatives and competition" but also (extremely briefly and not entirely clearly (possibly because of the somewhat stilted English/jargon)) attempts to define what is different about the proposed project. See the "alternatives and competition" table and the remarks below it at the following link: https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=17408&group_id=70060#AlternativesAndCompetition (f) A very brief list of databases is given by Terry Groff on his UFO Tools website at the following link: http://www.terrygroff.com/ufotools/statistics.html The most striking thing about these lists, to me at least, is that there is very limited overlap in the lists of databases. It seems to me that merely combining these lists would generate a more comprehensive list of UFO databases than is currently available on the Internet. Even more striking is the fact that the lists of databases and catalogues that appear in print also have extremely limited overlap with the above lists. For example, UFO databases are listed and/or discussed in the following: Evans, Hilary in "UFO: 1947-1987" (1987) (edited by Hilary Evans with John Spencer) at page 46 of the Fortean Tomes softcover edition (Chapter 2.3.1, entitled "UFOs as Global Phenomenon"). Hall, Richard in "The UFO Evidence: Volume 2 - A Thirty Year Report" (2001) (edited by Richard Hall) at pages 646-647 (in Section 16) of the Scarecrow Press hardback edition. Hynek, J Allen and Vallee, Jacques in their "The Edge of Reality" (1975) at pages 76, 78-82 (in Chapter 3) of the Henry Regnery hardback edition. Gamble, Stephen and Wootten, Michael and Danby, J and Smith, Willy and Kuhlemann, Bertil in "Phenomenon" (1988) (edited by John Spencer and Hilary Evans) at pages 224-237 of the MacDonald hardback edition (Part 3, in the unnumbered chapter entitled "Harnessing the Computer"). Randles, Jenny and Warrington, Peter in their "UFOs : A British Viewpoint" (1979) at pages 180-181 (in Chapter 11) of the Book Club Associates hardback edition. Randles, Jenny and Warrington, Peter in their "Science and the UFOs" (1985) at page 60 (in Chapter 4) of the Blackwell hardback edition. Spencer, John and Vallee, Jacques and Verga, Maurizio in "UFO: 1947-1987" (1987) (edited by Hilary Evans with John Spencer) at pages 238-245 of the Fortean Tomes softcover edition (in Chapter 3.6, entitled "Computers in Ufology"). Sturrock, Peter in his "The UFO Enigma" (1999) at pages 166-167 (in Chapter 24) of the Warner Aspect hardback edition. Westrum, Ronald M in "UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist" (1979) (edited by Richard F Haines) at pages 104-106 (in Chapter 5) of the Scarebrow Press hardback edition. The above lists are an attempt at a database cubed. I've started to generate my own database squared (i.e. a list of computer databases), by listing the databases listed in the webpages/discussions and other databases I've read about elsewhere (or have obtained). Before I spend much more time on this project, I'd invite anyone that knows of other lists of databases to add to the above database cubed to do so. Of the above list of existing lists of databases, I would heavily highlight in particular the article by Spencer, John and Vallee, Jacques and Verga, Maurizio in "UFO: 1947-1987" (1987) (edited by Hilary Evans with John Spencer) at pages 238-245 of the Fortean Tomes softcover edition (in Chapter 3.6, entitled "Computers in Ufology"). That article discusses a considerable number of existing databases. Interestingly, I don't think I've read about most of those databases since that article was printed in 1987. It would be interesting to follow up on the status and availability of those databases. A few hours of effort in following up the availability of programs or databases that took week or months to produce could be very rewarding. I note in particular the following from that article (at the top of page 242): " This is the only publication in the world exclusively devoted to the use and application of computers in ufology. A lot of international researchers contribute to the [Computer UFO Newsletter] edited by Maurizio Verga. with articles on research projects, ready programs, proposals of common works and new software. There is a column, 'Offers of software', where there is an offer at cost price of all UFO programs available at the moment (about 30) for different kinds of computers.". Presumably, if the authors of the relevant programs were prepared to make the programs available at cost price, some or all of them would be prepared to make them available on a website (such as Terry's "UFO Tools" website). I note that the Newsletter is referred to on Maurizio Verga's website at the following link, but I don't know whether the newsletters that were produced (or the relevant programs) are already available online or how useful they would be. http://www.ufo.it/verga.htm Another previous effort that I would be interested in knowing more about (and may be worth noting by those that are working on, or thinking about, generating their own database) is the International Committee for UFO Research ("ICUR"). That organisation made an effort to consider how more comprehensive international databases of UFO reports could be generated and how (if at all) the data in various databases could be standardised. See the links below: http://members.rogers.com/vlourenco/mufon/hais02.htm http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/el82/icur.htm That Committee boasted an impressive list of members, including BUFORA, CUFOS, Project UNICAT, Project URD, SUFOI and others. I'm aware of some background on the Committee (see the short list of references below), but am quite out of date. I'd like to know far more about this interesting endeavour. Can anyone point me to more up to date information? Are any of the members of the executive of that Committee on this List? How active was/is the Committee? Did it issue any reports or substantial minutes of its deliberations? Some references for the International Committee for UFO Research (in addition to the 2 hyperlinks given above): Blevins, Dave in his "UFO Directory International" (2003) at pages 89-90 (in Part 2) of the McF softcover edition. Gamble, Stephen and Wootten, Michael and Danby, J. and Smith, Willy and Kuhlemann, Bertil in "Phenomenon" (1988) (edited by John Spencer and Hilary Evans) at page 224 of the MacDonald hardback edition (Part 3, in the unnumbered chapter entitled "Harnessing the Computer"). Randles, Jenny in her "UFO Reality" (1983) at page 52 (in Chapter 3) of the Hale hardback edition. West, Arnold in "Phenomenon" (1988) (edited by John Spencer and Hilary Evans) at page 12 of the MacDonald hardback edition (in the unnumbered chapter entitled "About BUFORA and ICUR"). In this part of this email I'm merely seeking to outline how a comprehensive list of existing computer databases could be produced, not to give a list of them. (A draft list I'm working on is probably too long to include in this email). However, it would be remiss of me to fail to give a couple of comments on the two offline giants of the UFO database world: UFOCAT and Larry Hatch's *U* database. UFOCAT: I don't think that there's any real doubt that UFOCAT is the most famous and largest offline UFO database. I gave a list of references to discussion of UFOCAT cut and paste from an incomplete draft of my Chronology in my email at the following link: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jan/m10-017.shtml See also the CUFOS and UFOCAT webpages: http://www.cufos.org/UFOCAT.html http://www.ufocat.com/ As I remarked in that email, I think it would be in the interests of ufology and CUFOS for the manual for UFOCAT to be made available on the internet. The manual hints at the wealth of data and bibliographical references on various topics that can be extracted from UFOCAT. Also, the UFOCAT database (which runs on Microsoft's Access) comes with various pre-prepared lists relating to particularly types of sightings etc. I would have thought it would be good advertising for UFOCAT for one or more of those lists to be made freely available on the CUFOS website. I'd also note the following comment from page 5 of the UFOCAT 2002 Manual: "We would first caution potential users not to expect to be able to begin and end their research using only UFOCAT 2002-there are too many gaps in the data and, just like the Internet, not every source of information is as reliable and accurate as the next. The results obtained from UFOCAT 2002 are best thought of as a reference guide to the original sources for the crucial details. Otherwise, the distinction between poorly investigated reports and exhaustively studied sightings will be lost. However, you will substantially improve your search for information by accessing UFOCAT 2002. What was true when Allan Hendry wrote his critique of UFOCAT in 1979 is even truer today: UFOCAT 2002 is without peer as a reference source. Thousands of hours went into creating it, and months have gone into revising it to improve its ease of use. It exists today as the most comprehensive reference tool and bibliographic source on UFO reports in existence." Larry Hatch's *U* Database - Given Larry's frequent posts to Updates, his database probably does not require any introduction or any reference to his website at the following link: http://www.larryhatch.net/ As far as I've seen, this database has not discussed in many books so far. However, Larry's objective appears to be very similar to that of Dr Willy Smith's Project UNICAT (i.e. a filtered catalogue of higher quality UFO reports). Project UNICAT's database has been discussed in several of the references given above, and elsewhere (e.g. in the entry entitled "UNICAT Project" at pages 943-944 of Jerome Clark's "UFO Encylopedia 2nd Edition : Volume 2 L-Z:" (1998). Larry's database is currently only available as a Microsoft DOS program and its appearance is a rather basic. The sound effects may have been cutting edge for DOS software but are now simply a bit irritating. However, these rather superficial issues should not cause the database itself to be underestimated. The database is a useful tool and I look forward to seeing Larry release a new version of his database once its been given a new, glossy, Windows user interface. (Again, I find it interesting that the references given by Larry's database rarely seem to overlap with the references given for the same sightings by UFOCAT). B. Databases of other information Ah, well, this is a rather wide category of a mass of (generally) smaller databases..... For example, there are lists/databases of different types of IFOs (e.g. Menzel's list, which is now online at: http://www.cufon.org/cufon/ifo_list.htm or lists relating to a particular type of IFO (e.g. the list of clouds (with photos) for which a link is given on Terry's UFO Tools website). More significant are the various bibliographies (by Catoe etc). I won't attempt to list the existing bibliographies in this email, but will simply note that several of the existing bibliographies contain sections which are devoted to listing bibliographies - see, in particular, the following: (1) Codes LB and LBA in the excellent online database produced by the AFU, at the following link: http://www.afu.info/booksbycodeL.htm (2) US Library of Congress, Tracer Bullet 91-1 "Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)" containing section entitled "Bibliographies", available online at: http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/tracer-bullets/ufostb.html Surprising limited, unless I'm missing something, are existing indexes/databases of government documents. Of course, there are some lists (e.g. Brad Sparks' list of Project Blue Book "Unknowns"), but I've seen far fewer such indexes than would be useful. If someone has already compiled a list of such indexes/databases, I'd be grateful if they could let me know as it would produce a short cut for the database squared I'm producing. The range of other existing lists/databases that might be of interest to ufologists is almost unlimited, for example: (1) lists of SETI projects (such as those presented by Darling, David in his "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia" (2000) at pages 378-383 (in the table entitled "SETI Observing Programs: 1960 to the Present") of the Three Rivers softcover edition and Jill Tarter's list in "Extraterrestrials: Science and alien intelligence" (1985) (edited by Edward Regis) as her tabular Appendix entitled "Archive of SETI observing programs 1959-84" at page 192 of the Cambridge University Press softcover edition. (2) various lists of movies involving UFOS/aliens, including: a. The list entitled "A Checklist of ETs in the Cinema" presented by Chris Boyce in in his "Extraterrestrial Encounter" (1979) at page 164 (in Appendix 1) of the David & Charles hardback edition, at page 152 of the 1980 revised NEL paperback edition. b. The list of science fiction films with themes of either visitors from space, or travelling to space or both presented by Armando Simon in "UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist" (1979) (edited by Richard F Haines) at page 53 (in Chapter 3) of the Scarebrow Press hardback edition. c. The list entitled "Alien Inspired Movies" presented by Kurland, Michael in his "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Extraterrestrial Intelligence" (1999) at page 290 (in Chapter 28) of the Alpha Books softcover edition, and included in Appendix E at pages 315-316. (3) List of names of supposed extraterrestrials relating to UFO sightings/contactees presented by Paul Christopher in his "Alien Intervention" (1998) at pages 81-82 (in Chapter 5) of the Huntington House softcover edition. etc., etc., etc. C. Expert systems to assist in identifying possible stimuli for a report Jacques Vallee has written about an expert system called OVNIBASE that he developed using NEXPERT SYSTEM (developed by Neuron Data, Inc) to implement a screening system which could be operated by clerical personnel with the objective of eliminating most misidentifications and to enable a skilled scientific analyst to spend his or her time on those few cases genuinely worthy of full investigation. This system was discussed by Jacques Vallee in his "Confrontations" (1990) at pages 212-213 (in the Appendix) of the Ballantine Books paperback edition. It is also discussed in the article by Spencer, Vallee and Verga highlighted above. I've heard very little about this system in recent years. I understand that it was being developed further by a French group, but am not sure of its current status or availability. D. Other software to assist in investigations and research. This appears to be the primary focus of Terry Groff's "UFO Tools" website at: http://www.terrygroff.com/ufotools/ Again, I won't attempt to list specific examples in this email (given its already considerable length), but will merely note some categories for which lists could be developed: 1. Software for checking specific IFOs, the most obvious example being astronomical sources; 2. Software relevant to particular types of evidence, e.g. Photographic evidence : image analysis software; Witness evidence: software/databases to assist in locating witnesses and calculation tools to assist in evaluating witness evidence. (In relation to calculation tools, in addition to noting the tools on Terry Groff's UFO website referred to above, I note that the article by Spencer, Vallee, and Verga highlighted above appears to briefly refer to other such calculation tools, including an Italian program called "Elaborazione Dati Avvistamento" ("Sighting Data Processing"), which, at least according to that article, "allows the processing of many different parameters coming from the witness' tale. Probable sizes, altitude, distance and speed are some of the parameters you can obtain...". 3. Software for digitising information, e.g. Documents: Scanning software, OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software; Sound (e.g. lectures, radio interviews) : software such as Magix's Audio Cleaning Lab. Also, it is important not to forget the full range of activities that may be encompassed by the term ufology, including political lobbying FOIA requests. There are various interactive tools online (and other software) that can be useful in relation to these areas. For example, there are websites that allow the user to send a fax elected representatives in a particular country, or to help generate the text of a FOIA request letter. Furthermore, there are of course the fundamental software program (word processors, spreadsheets, databases, desktop publishing software, virus software, zipping software etc etc). Perhaps the most obvious observations from reviewing the discussions referred to above are that many, many catalogues/databases have (a) been planned but not finished, or (b) finished but are not readily available. I dread to think how much time and effort has been wasted on such projects. I urge the various individuals on Updates that are involved in the development of further databases to: (1) consider what, if anything, their project adds to existing databases; (2) adopt realistic goals; and (3) consider how their project can be designed in stages or modules, so that others can build upon your work if you decide to abandon it. To help me (or anyone else) track down databases that have been developed but almost forgotten about, I repeat the invitation given above to let me (or Updates generally) know of references to lists of databases (other than those given in Section A of this email) so that a comprehensive list of databases can be generated and then followed up. Kind Regards, Isaac Koi -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Feb 14 19:09:53 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:09:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE:[extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <200502120018.j1C0Hxs02375@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050214190953.39246.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Consider the Got Milk ad campaign. It is the first > of its kind that I recall: advertise the product > without regard to brand name, paid for by a > coalition > of producers. The notion then is that all producers > will profit by increased sales of that product, in > this case milk. > > Regardless of what we do, we will still likely get > slammed by Got Milk type spam, which doesn't require > any contact details. What has puzzled me is that > the jesus-is-coming crowd never figured out the > use of spam, or haven't used it as far as I know. Those of that crowd with low enough actual concern for their fellows to spam, seem also to be antagonistic towards others who might benefit from the general promotion of Jesus without mentioning a specific sect. "Our branch is the only true church and all the others are heretics", and so forth. Also keep in mind the high correlation between extreme religious beliefs and neo-Luddism. The few pastors and ministers I've encountered who are open to using modern technology to preach their faiths also tend to be the more secular - the types who see no conflict between faith in God and faith in science, often by (from our perspective) modifying their faith in God to adjust to what science discovers (or from their perspective, acknowledging what God has allowed science to discover). From es at popido.com Mon Feb 14 22:18:16 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:18:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Avian flu In-Reply-To: <42A64D3D.C4A2ED2@sasktel.net> References: <000001c44cff$efd0da70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <42A64D3D.C4A2ED2@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050214230822.078b6b00@mail.popido.com> Surprised to see no one mentioning the potential bird flu outbreak in Vietnam. This could be a greater threat to human lives than global warming, terrorism and supersized McMega-meals combined. Keep your eyes on http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/en/ over the next couple of months for a continuos update. I have a feeling the letters H5N1 will be more familiar to all of us after this spring and summer. I hope I'm wrong. Erik From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 15 02:56:58 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:56:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] fwd: 'Heart-renewing' cells discovered Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050214205559.01a12e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> 'Heart-renewing' cells discovered Reuters 10feb05 SCIENTISTS have discovered cells in newborn hearts which divide and develop into mature heart muscle and could provide a new approach to treating cardiac patients. The cells, known as isl1+, were found by a team of researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) in the hearts of newborn rats, mice and humans. "This represents the fundamental discovery of a new human heart cell, one that is programmed to become cardiac muscle but is not yet triggered to do so," said Kenneth Chien, director of the UCSD Institute of Molecular Medicine who headed the research team. The progenitor cells identified by Chien and his colleagues were found in areas of the heart where the bulk of congenital heart problems occur, which suggests they play an important role in remodelling and repairing the newborn heart. "These cells represent an important finding because they identify clearly, using genetic tools, the cells that normally are responsible for forming the heart in the living embryo and show that a rare subset persists after birth, which is surprising," Chien told Reuters. Although the cells, described in the latest issue of the science journal Nature, will not become a completely new heart, Chien said they can be grown on nearby heart cells and could be used to replace mechanical devices and valves to keep young damaged hearts pumping . "Conceptually, these cells could provide a cell therapy-based approach to cardiac disease, which is new for cardiology," Chien said. The scientists initially found the progenitor cells in an area of the heart called the atrium in newborn rats. They were able to genetically tag the cells in human embryonic tissue and in the hearts of mice. They showed the cells spontaneously formed cardiac muscle tissue. Because the cells were found in a region of the atrium that is usually discarded during cardiac surgery, the researchers believe there may be some similar cells in the adult heart. "The cardiac muscle cells formed were totally mature and had the complete array of function that one would expect in completely differentiated heart tissues," said Jason Lam, one of the first authors of the study, in a statement. In a commentary on the research, Christine Mummery of the Institute of the Netherlands in Utrecht said the research suggests the heart has some regenerative capacity. "The heart was thought to lack the capacity to regenerate after injury. But the identification of cells that can divide and mature into heart muscle suggests that the heart has repair mechanisms after all," she said. Reuters From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 15 03:15:21 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:15:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] NOT damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050214190155.18903.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050213050257.1024.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050214190155.18903.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050214211148.01a12ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >--- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Here's one place where the chain breaks down. See > > > Drake's equation, and the debates surrounding it, > > > for reasons why we very well could be the first > > > technologically advanced civilization in the > > universe. > > > > On the contrary, the Drake equation has been getting > > a drumming the > > past few years > >Nit: "the idea that the Drake equation shows how >unlikely life can be has been getting". Nothing that etc etc Even Spike's original posts about stochasticity had very little to do my study of parapsychology, THE LOTTO EFFECT. This wandering thread now has ZERO to do with psi. Can people please change the subject line now and then to keep flagged topics appropriate? Damien Broderick [grump grump] From dgc at cox.net Tue Feb 15 00:59:39 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:59:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Automatin of information workers. In-Reply-To: <200502141455.j1EEt4d7005782@br549.indconet.com> References: <200502141455.j1EEt4d7005782@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <4211497B.2000007@cox.net> Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks wrote: >I hope they every get to programmers....lol > >But I think the pointy heads in the upstairs offices will never want to or >that can't program their VCR, much less database driven apps. Long life the >Dilberts. > > > > >Dan Clemmesnen wrote: > >It's all about the increasing ease of finding information. I believe >this trend will continue and that it is in fact at the heart of >acceleration toward the singularity. > >As software becomes more sophisticated, it will eventually replace more >and more of the information manipulation tasks now done by humans. >Telephone operators went first, then clerks, typists, and secretaries. >now ticket agents and travel agents are feeling the heat. Eventually we >will get to programmers and lawyers, but we have a way to go yet. > > > You are quite correct. The PHBs are in fact being automated out of existence on many companies. There are far fewer paper-pushing middle managers per "individual contributor" than there were in 1980. That's because an individual middle manager can push more "paper" now and this increase in productivity is faster than the increase in paper per subordinate. This in turn has led to a gap in the traditional promotion trajectory whereby an individual contributor (i.e., worker bee) becomes a middle manager and finally moves into upper management. Different companies address the problem in different ways. I think that this phenomenon was a big hidden driver of the dot-com bubble, as senior techies with no road to promotion decided to start companies. The Darwinian selection of competent managers in a new-start is a lot harsher than under the old model. The meta-lesson here is there is a lag in the adjustments that society, including businesses, make when relative efficiency changes. But exponential technical progress will cause the effect of the lag to increase. Ouch. Of course I'm having fun spouting a theory here, but a serious theory should have predictive power and should make falsifiable assertions. I'll try that later. I spent long day today as an individual contributor. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 14:33:46 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:33:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <20050214190155.18903.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215143346.21298.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation : > > > N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L > > > > where: > > > > N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations in > > our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to > > communicate > > > > and > > > > R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy > > fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets > > ne is average number of planets which can > > potentially support life per star that has planets > > fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on > > to develop life > > fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on > > to develop intelligent life > > fc is the fraction of the above which are willing > > and able to communicate > > L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization > > Your points argue for high (near 1) fp and fl. For > this case, we're assuming an essentially indefinite L > (L=~1, not infinity, since L is a fraction of the > lifetime of the civilization's own universe), and fc > refers to civilizations that expand through the > universe and upload other sentient races rather than > civilizations that communicate. R*, we have pretty > good data on too. > > This leaves out ne (even if life flourishes everywhere > it can flourish, that doesn't mean it can flourish on > all planets), fi, and fc (which spike asserted to be > 1, but gave no evidence for that assertion). It also applies to all planets that *could* have supported life at some time in the history of the universe. We know that both Venus and Mars went through significant warm damp periods before settling in at extreme ends of the green zone, for different reasons. Add in Europa, Ganymede, and Titan and that is six possible worlds in one solar system (and the possibility for jovian moons to harbor life means that any star system with a jovian/superjovian in it could harbor life, no matter how imperfect the orbit of the parent planet.) That the jovians are outside the green zone is the only reason most of their moons are not overtly life bearers. Any extrasolar jovian in its stars green zone should be considered potentially life bearing to a degree of 1, for at least one moon supporting an ecoysystem. > > > > This assumes you know the physics of the world > > > running the sim. Maybe they can have perfectly > > > randomness, and the mechanical non-randomness is > > an > > > artifact of the sim? > > > > You are forgetting the turtles. More than one turtle > > per universe means > > a veritable plethora of turtlesque universes. > > Sorry to call a spade a spade, but that's a > non-sequiter. Speaking in metaphor doesn't prove or > disprove anything. (Now, maybe if you clarified > exactly what you meant by "turtles" - not just the old > story about "it's turtles all the way down", but what > you meant it to mean in this case...) If one technological civilization exists at any time in the entire history of each universe and develops sim tech, then odds are massively in favor of the simulation argument. We can prove this by modifying the Drake Equation. We can dispense with the L variable, since we aren't interested in whether other civilizations are co-existent with ours in this universe, wrt to this thought experiment, and fc is gone because this isn't about civilizations communicating across interstellar space, and we are looking at number of civilizations per whole universe, not just per galaxy: N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x ft x fs where: N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations that exist at any time in the history of our universe which we might expect to be able to go posthuman and create simulated universes. and R* is the rate of star formation in our universe fp is the fraction of those stars which have planets ne is average number of planets which can potentially support life per star that has planets fl is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop life fi is the fraction of the above which actually go on to develop intelligent life ft is the fraction of the above which survive to post-human equivalent technological development fs is the fraction of the above which develop and use universe simulation technologies to replicate their own past history or made-up histories. (You can call this the Lorrey Equation ... ;)) It is quite clear that if we are talking about a volume of space as huge as the entire universe, then the odds of N exceeding 1 are extremely large. As soon as N meets 0.5 (half of natural universes have one such civilization), then the odds of us living in a simulated universe exceeds 50%. The odds increase asymptotically as N approaches 1. Beyond N=1, you are dealing with the mathematics of infinitely large probabilities, i.e. sure things, tautologies. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 15 16:52:40 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <20050215143346.21298.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215165240.85767.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > If one technological civilization exists at any time > in the entire > history of each universe and develops sim tech, then > odds are massively > in favor of the simulation argument. Only if the sim includes other races. > N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x ft x fs [corrected to remove fc as well] > > where: > > N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations > that exist at any > time in the history of our universe which we might > expect to be able to > go posthuman and create simulated universes. Ah - "be able to", or "actually do"? And the concepts of posthuman and creating sim universes aren't necessarily linked - though, of course, it's fair to ask specifically about just those races who do both. > and > > > R* is the rate of star formation in our universe > fp is the fraction of those stars which have > planets > ne is average number of planets which can > potentially support > life per star that has planets Might want to include moons in that. E.g., it appears that (ne x fl) might be at least 4 in this solar system's case: Venus, Earth, Mars, and Titan. > fl is the fraction of the above which actually go > on to develop life > fi is the fraction of the above which actually go > on to develop > intelligent life > ft is the fraction of the above which survive to > post-human > equivalent technological development > fs is the fraction of the above which develop and > use universe > simulation technologies to replicate their own > past history > or made-up histories. > > (You can call this the Lorrey Equation ... ;)) It is > quite clear that > if we are talking about a volume of space as huge as > the entire > universe, then the odds of N exceeding 1 are > extremely large. As soon > as N meets 0.5 (half of natural universes have one > such civilization), > then the odds of us living in a simulated universe > exceeds 50%. The > odds increase asymptotically as N approaches 1. > Beyond N=1, you are > dealing with the mathematics of infinitely large > probabilities, i.e. > sure things, tautologies. Not necessarily. The terms ft and fs both seem to be essentially unknown (despite unjustified claims that fs in particular and maybe also ft are both 1), and it seems like (R* x fp x ne x fl x fi) <= 1 for the volume of space we have observed so far, possibly for the entire galaxy. From jonkc at att.net Tue Feb 15 17:10:59 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:10:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking References: <20050215143346.21298.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601c51381$88e19040$a2fe4d0c@hal2001> Michael Crichton had some interesting things to say about the Drake Equation: "This serious-looking equation gave SETI an serious footing as a legitimate intellectual inquiry. The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. And guesses-just so we're clear-are merely expressions of prejudice. Nor can there be "informed guesses." If you need to state how many planets with life choose to communicate, there is simply no way to make an informed guess. It's simply prejudice." "As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless, and has nothing to do with science." From kevin at kevinfreels.com Tue Feb 15 18:59:25 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:59:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking References: <20050215165240.85767.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b001c51390$7846a040$0100a8c0@kevin> One thing has consistently bothered me about the simulation argument. Is there any reason to think that there is a difference between simulation and reality to begin with? In a simulation that is done correctly, isn;t the difference small enough to where it doesn't really matter which you are in? If so, why waste valuable mental energy on pondering such questions? If not, why not? Keep in mind, I may be part of the simulation and may have been told to ask those questions. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > If one technological civilization exists at any time > > in the entire > > history of each universe and develops sim tech, then > > odds are massively > > in favor of the simulation argument. > > Only if the sim includes other races. > > > N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x ft x fs > [corrected to remove fc as well] > > > > where: > > > > N is the number of extraterrestrial civilizations > > that exist at any > > time in the history of our universe which we might > > expect to be able to > > go posthuman and create simulated universes. > > Ah - "be able to", or "actually do"? And the concepts > of posthuman and creating sim universes aren't > necessarily linked - though, of course, it's fair to > ask specifically about just those races who do both. > > > and > > > > > > R* is the rate of star formation in our universe > > fp is the fraction of those stars which have > > planets > > ne is average number of planets which can > > potentially support > > life per star that has planets > > Might want to include moons in that. E.g., it appears > that (ne x fl) might be at least 4 in this solar > system's case: Venus, Earth, Mars, and Titan. > > > fl is the fraction of the above which actually go > > on to develop life > > fi is the fraction of the above which actually go > > on to develop > > intelligent life > > ft is the fraction of the above which survive to > > post-human > > equivalent technological development > > fs is the fraction of the above which develop and > > use universe > > simulation technologies to replicate their own > > past history > > or made-up histories. > > > > (You can call this the Lorrey Equation ... ;)) It is > > quite clear that > > if we are talking about a volume of space as huge as > > the entire > > universe, then the odds of N exceeding 1 are > > extremely large. As soon > > as N meets 0.5 (half of natural universes have one > > such civilization), > > then the odds of us living in a simulated universe > > exceeds 50%. The > > odds increase asymptotically as N approaches 1. > > Beyond N=1, you are > > dealing with the mathematics of infinitely large > > probabilities, i.e. > > sure things, tautologies. > > Not necessarily. The terms ft and fs both seem to be > essentially unknown (despite unjustified claims that > fs in particular and maybe also ft are both 1), and it > seems like (R* x fp x ne x fl x fi) <= 1 for the > volume of space we have observed so far, possibly for > the entire galaxy. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:17:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <20050215165240.85767.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215191717.44642.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Not necessarily. The terms ft and fs both seem to be > essentially unknown (despite unjustified claims that > fs in particular and maybe also ft are both 1), and it > seems like (R* x fp x ne x fl x fi) <= 1 for the > volume of space we have observed so far, possibly for > the entire galaxy. On the contrary, we count as 1 ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Tue Feb 15 19:30:30 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:30:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nit =?iso-8859-1?q?picking_=A0?= Message-ID: <20050215192752.M72373@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> >Michael Crichton had some interesting things to say about the >Drake Equation: >"This serious-looking equation gave SETI an serious footing as a >legitimate intellectual inquiry. The problem, of course, is that >none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be >estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with >guesses. And guesses-just so we're clear-are merely expressions >of prejudice. Nor can there be "informed guesses." If you need to >state how many planets with life choose to communicate, there is >simply no way to make an informed guess. It's simply prejudice." >"As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from >"billions and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean >anything means nothing. Speaking precisely, the Drake equation >is literally meaningless, and has nothing to do with science." With all due respect to Michael Crichton, is he working in the field where these scientists are working? I suggest for Crichton the chapter : Intelligence on Earth and in the Universe in Frank Shu's book _The Physical Universe_, University Science Books, 1982. It's old, but the science grounding is very good. The 'serious-looking' equation is a good first approximation or model, to quantify the problem. Yes, it is true that many of the numbers that researchers use in the equation are their best guesses, but it is what we know presently, and that doesn't mean that it is not science. The science grounding is not only good, it is one of the best topics to use in a basic astronomy class, or even a general science course because it is multidisciplinary, and most young people love it, and it spurs their curiousity and zest for learning especially in the sciences. This Drake Equation topic is given in the texts that I use for my own astronomy course, and you can see it embedded in the Astronomical Society of the Pacific's "Project Astro": http://www.astrosociety.org/education/family/resources/seti.html I don't think that any SETI researcher has claimed that it is the latest and greatest model. However, I do think that the Drake Equation has become such a common base for researchers over the last 40 years with which to talk to each other, that they use it, or parts of it automatically. This equation appears constantly in my casual browsing of the field and when I am at conferences. Not as the best model, but as a collection of useful concepts. For example, in _Life in the Univese_ by Dirk Shulze-Makuch and Louis N. Irwin, Springer Verlag, 2004, the preface contains this paragraph: "This book embraces the conviction that life is not restricted to our planet. We accept as plausible that, with 10^11 stars in our galaxy, and each frequency component of the Drake Equation conservatively set to 0.01, there may be 10^5 abodes for life in our galaxy alone. Tnad ther are billions of galaxies. Thile computations such as these are cebatable (if unresolvable at the present time), we do not take issue with their general conclusion. Rather, the objective of this book is to analyze in critical scientific detail the fundamental, commonly-hel assumptions about life beyond Earth - particularly those relating to the probably cosmic preference for carbon-based life, the overwhelming focus on water as the prefferred solvent for life, and the relative merits of different forms of energy for the sustenance of life. Whiel we do assume that extraterrestrial life exists, we take nothing about its nature for granted." Another example: New Scientist last August 14, 2004, wrote of Frank Drake giving a talk at Harvard about SETI, where he stated that we need to find intelligent beings soon, because cable TV does not leak signals into space, and traditional broadcast antennas are being used less (so then his fc term will be less). Another example: At COSPAR in Paris last July, I rather randomly ran into a poster titled: "Number of Planets with Life in the Galactic Habitable Zone Deduced by the Modified Drake Equation" For me, this equation pops up 'everywhere'. Amara From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:35:03 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:35:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <005601c51381$88e19040$a2fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20050215193504.52305.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > Michael Crichton had some interesting things to say about the Drake > Equation: > > "This serious-looking equation gave SETI an serious footing as a > legitimate intellectual inquiry. The problem, of course, is that > none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. > The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. And > guesses-just so we're clear-are merely expressions of prejudice. > Nor can there be "informed guesses." If you need to state how many > planets with life choose to communicate, there is simply no way to > make an informed guess. It's simply prejudice." > > "As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions > and billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means > nothing. > Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless, and > has nothing to do with science." The problem with this argument, wrt the discussion at hand, is that we already have one solar system, with one planet, with one species, which is intelligent. The Drake equation is concerned with finding the number of intelligent species OTHER THAN us. WRT the simulation argument, we only need one in one natural universe, and one in each simulation that civilization spawns. So, wrt the Lorrey Equation, the only parameters which are unknown are the last two, i.e. fraction of civilizations that go posthuman, and fraction of those who simulate universes. We know the human race exists, but do not know if we will survive the posthuman period long enough to simulate universes. Beyond this, even being as pessimistic as possible, the Drake equation only applies to this galaxy, not the entire universe, and only cares about civilizations that coexist in the same era as us. Even if the Drake equation came out with 1 in a million odds of one other radio communicating civilization, this still means billions of such civilizations in the entire universe over the history of the entire universe. Those who continue to be pessimistic toward the simulation argument are being hopelessly catholic in their abject atheism. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:41:04 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:41:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <00b001c51390$7846a040$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050215194104.55555.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > One thing has consistently bothered me about the simulation argument. > Is there any reason to think that there is a difference between > simulation and reality to begin with? In a simulation that is done > correctly, isn;t the difference small enough to where it doesn't > really matter which you are in? If so, why waste valuable mental > energy on pondering such questions? If not, why not? > > Keep in mind, I may be part of the simulation and may have been told > to ask those questions. :-) Spike asked some very good questions that can be answered by the simulation argument but not by the atheist uberdeterminist. These are all really questions of cosmology which likely have no practical application beyond how we look at the universe and our place in it. It's also fun to watch self described alleged 'rationalists' and 'scientists' here put their hands over their ears and shout "I'm not listening, neener, neener." ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Feb 15 20:30:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:30:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <20050215191717.44642.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215203054.8135.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > Not necessarily. The terms ft and fs both seem to > be > > essentially unknown (despite unjustified claims > that > > fs in particular and maybe also ft are both 1), > and it > > seems like (R* x fp x ne x fl x fi) <= 1 for the > > volume of space we have observed so far, possibly > for > > the entire galaxy. > > On the contrary, we count as 1 The question is, what is the expected number of intelligent races in the volume of space that we have observed - without reference to the fact that this would be 0 if we didn't exist? Is the fact that there is 1 race here a rare exception in that we're higher (or lower) than normal, or is our area pretty average? We have a data point. We don't have the actual values. From reason at longevitymeme.org Tue Feb 15 20:50:05 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:50:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <005601c51381$88e19040$a2fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of John K Clark > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:11 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking > > "As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from "billions and > billions" to zero. An expression that can mean anything means nothing. > Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless, and has > nothing to do with science." The point of the Drake equation, so far as I understand it, was to foster discussion regarding what sort of constraints exist on the existence of ETI - coming up with numbers wasn't the important part of the process and the exercise is far from meaningless. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Feb 15 21:35:01 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:35:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common online debating techniques Message-ID: <42126B05.C88121CA@mindspring.com> A nice summary of common online debating techniques: < http://www.stageleft.info/?p=1100 > -- James H.G. Redekop -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 22:44:42 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:44:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Drake Equation nitpicking In-Reply-To: <20050215203054.8135.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215224442.37123.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > > Not necessarily. The terms ft and fs both seem to > > be > > > essentially unknown (despite unjustified claims > > that > > > fs in particular and maybe also ft are both 1), > > and it > > > seems like (R* x fp x ne x fl x fi) <= 1 for the > > > volume of space we have observed so far, possibly > > for > > > the entire galaxy. > > > > On the contrary, we count as 1 > > The question is, what is the expected number of > intelligent races in the volume of space that we have > observed - without reference to the fact that this > would be 0 if we didn't exist? Is the fact that there > is 1 race here a rare exception in that we're higher > (or lower) than normal, or is our area pretty average? > > We have a data point. We don't have the actual > values. Not when it comes to the simulation argument. One race with an interest in simming is all it takes to tip the odds. I think the human races' predeliction to play video games of various sorts which only seems to grow as technology improves indicates that this course should be expected for the human race. But we aren't totally at a loss for data either. We don't have just one data point. We have counted over 150 extrasolar planets since Drake did his equation and I believe everyone is pretty shocked at how common planets seem to be, as well as the variety of solar systems possible. The only one where we've been able to directly detect terrestrial planets is around a pulsar that burned out its planets long ago, but its planets are in orbits considered to be the most like our own solar system, includinge several inner worlds and a jupiter type around the distance of the asteroid belt which has one or more terrestrial moons (all of these have been derived from variations in the pulsar frequency, which is much easier than measuring the wobble in a much larger star). This system could have been a very viable one long ago when the pulsar was a real star. Given the number of large planets we've discovered so far, I think it is fair to predict that we will find an equal number of terrestrial planets and four to eight times as many large moons based on the distribution of the two solar systems we've been able to examine with close enough detail. This many such planets will be found only within the few thousand light years distance that astronomers are dealing with at current day resolution, and in the systems already observed to have large gas giants and/or brown dwarfs. I think this astronomy done since Drake's time indicates that optimistic expectations should be considered normal, considering that physics and chemistry functions the same everywhere. What is needed is to further hash out the numbers is a very focused, very high power SETI program looking at extrasolar planets, as well as deployment of the newer space telescope technologies that will be capable of imaging and analysing spectra of extrasolar terrestrial worlds. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dgc at cox.net Wed Feb 16 00:33:59 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:33:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <00b001c51390$7846a040$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050215165240.85767.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> <00b001c51390$7846a040$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <421294F7.7010800@cox.net> kevinfreels.com wrote: >One thing has consistently bothered me about the simulation argument. Is >there any reason to think that there is a difference between simulation and >reality to begin with? In a simulation that is done correctly, isn;t the >difference small enough to where it doesn't really matter which you are in? >If so, why waste valuable mental energy on pondering such questions? If not, >why not? > >Keep in mind, I may be part of the simulation and may have been told to ask >those questions. :-) > > > > Assume a perfect simulation.... Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? 1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. 2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. 3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. 4) falsifiable? No. Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this is not absolutely fatal. We must still decide between the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: 5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or without the assumption? Without. That's it, ignore it henceforth unless new evidence arises. Please note: this is exactly the same analysis we do for: "Assume an omnipotent deity." Thus "perfect simulation" and "omnipotent deity" are equivalent concepts. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 01:37:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:37:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421294F7.7010800@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050216013707.35327.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Assume a perfect simulation.... > > Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? > > 1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. > 2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. > 3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. > 4) falsifiable? No. > Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this is not absolutely > fatal. We must still decide between > the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: > 5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or without the > assumption? > Without. That's it, > ignore it henceforth unless new evidence arises. > > > Please note: this is exactly the same analysis we do for: > "Assume an omnipotent deity." > > Thus "perfect simulation" and "omnipotent deity" are equivalent > concepts. While I wouldn't say omnipotent (I can think of many ways a sysop could have created my simulation but have absolutely no control over the weather in my area of the 'verse), I would make a qualified agreement to this. The important thing is that the simulation argument is the meme virus by which we can infect theists worldwide with transhumanism. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From dgc at cox.net Wed Feb 16 02:39:29 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:39:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216013707.35327.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216013707.35327.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4212B261.7040504@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Assume a perfect simulation.... >> >>Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? >> >>1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. >>2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. >>3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. >>4) falsifiable? No. >> Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this is not absolutely >>fatal. We must still decide between >>the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: >>5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or without the >>assumption? >>Without. That's it, >>ignore it henceforth unless new evidence arises. >> >> >>Please note: this is exactly the same analysis we do for: >> "Assume an omnipotent deity." >> >>Thus "perfect simulation" and "omnipotent deity" are equivalent >>concepts. >> >> > >While I wouldn't say omnipotent (I can think of many ways a sysop could >have created my simulation but have absolutely no control over the >weather in my area of the 'verse), I would make a qualified agreement >to this. > I concur. I did not mean to infer that "omnipotent diety" is the only equivalent concept, and "equivalent" is the wrong word. I should have said "indistinguishable." I use this term in the sense of observationally indistinguishable, even in theory. If there is an observable difference, then one of the two hypotheses is falsifiable. This leads to a possibly useful exersize: what broadly-held assumptions are observationally indistinguishable from the omnipotent deity/perfect simulation/null hypothesis? > The important thing is that the simulation argument is the >meme virus by which we can infect theists worldwide with transhumanism. > > > Possibly. Logically, all systems that consist of the null hypothesis plus an additional non-falsifiable assumption are equivalent. If the simulation argument appeals to a significant group, it can act as a virulent meme and possibly displace other non-falsifiable assumptions. I think we would be better off by displacing all such assumptions with the null hypothesis. From hal at finney.org Wed Feb 16 02:42:57 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument Message-ID: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> Dan Clemmensen writes: > Assume a perfect simulation.... > > Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? > > 1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. > 2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. > 3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. > 4) falsifiable? No. > Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this is not absolutely > fatal. We must still decide between > the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: > 5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or without the > assumption? > Without. That's it, ignore it henceforth unless new evidence arises. The simulation argument is not an assumption. It is an argument. It is logic, not science. The simulation argument can be expressed in the form, if A and B, then C. The argument's validity depends only on whether it is true that A and B together imply C. An argument is valid if its logic holds. The validity of this kind of argument does not depend on the truth of C. The argument may be valid even if A or B were false. Only if the argument is valid, and A and B are both true, can we deduce that C is true. In the case of the SA, A = "the human race is unlikely to go extinct before becoming posthuman"; B = "any posthuman civilization is likely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof)"; C = "we are likely to be living in a computer simulation". Occam's Razor is a tool for dealing with scientific hypotheses. It has nothing to do with logic. A logical argument which uses many premises or steps to reach its conclusion is just as valid as one which is trivial. Fermat's Last Theorem is just as true as the Pythagorean theorem, even though its proof is tremendously more complex. Rejecting Wiles' proof of FLT on the basis of Occam's Razor would be a mistake, applying a tool to a domain where it doesn't fit. Likewise, falsifiability is a technique appropriate for the domain of science, not for logic. We don't evaluate logical arguments or mathematical proofs on the basis of falsifiability. (Well, maybe some of the debates about constructionism in mathematics might be thought of as relating to falsifiability, but that's an esoteric detail not relevant at this level of discussion.) If we were dealing with a Simulation Hypothesis, which was simply that we are living in a simulation, then you would be right to demand falsifiability and use Occam's Razor. But we are not. We are dealing with a Simulation Argument, and you should look at it as a piece of logic, not a hypothesis about the nature of reality. Now, I'm not claiming here that the SA is valid. I'm just objecting to this very common way of responding to it, as if it were a scientific hypothesis. If you want to reject the SA, reject its logic. Or you can accept the SA's logic but still not believe that we live in a simulation, because you don't accept its premises. This is the kind of analysis appropriate to a logical argument. Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 03:42:57 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213155824.028e57f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > > > If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! The > whole > POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better form of > experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which evolved > along with the meat. You are making the mistake of assuming that hazard to simulated meat is the same as hazard to one's real meat. Only god gets to use god-mode in his simulation. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 16 03:47:45 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:47:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] =?iso-8859-1?q?wicked_roots_=A0?= In-Reply-To: <20050215192752.M72373@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <200502160349.j1G3nlh28497@tick.javien.com> > amara at amara.com: ... > With all due respect to Michael Crichton, is he working in the > field where these scientists are working? ... > Amara Ja Crichton does have a bad habit of offering opinions in areas where he isn't a recognized expert. I see that way too many people are taking his global warming book way too seriously. I even agree with some of his notions, but that whole terrorists-causing-a-tsunami idea was not just absurd but completely unnecessary. He could have had a cliff somewhere where they drilled and planted explosives so that they could cause a few thousand tons of rock to fall into the water, which would cause a superwave. Just as I was about to give up on the guy for excessive slaying of perfectly good doctors, but this season of ER has been way kick-ass. They have done an excellent job of depicting the headaches that doctors are facing. Drugs are advertised directly to patients on TV and thru internet spam. Drug companies are keeping the charity hospitals in business, but every gift has strings attached. In this case, the docs must whore for big pharmacy if they wish to keep the doors open. Oy. They say money is the root of all evil. That's because so much wicked-cool stuff grows out of it. (spikism) spike {8-] From sentience at pobox.com Wed Feb 16 03:57:11 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:57:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216013707.35327.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216013707.35327.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4212C497.8060803@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > While I wouldn't say omnipotent (I can think of many ways a sysop could > have created my simulation but have absolutely no control over the > weather in my area of the 'verse), I would make a qualified agreement > to this. The important thing is that the simulation argument is the > meme virus by which we can infect theists worldwide with transhumanism. Infect people with a non-personally-believed meme! What a wonderfully euphemistic way of saying, "lie". -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Feb 16 04:08:30 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:08:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213155824.028e57f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050215220658.01b054e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 07:42 PM 2/15/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >Only god gets to use god-mode in >his simulation. I'm flattered, but really... Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 16 04:35:21 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:35:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502160437.j1G4bVh02374@tick.javien.com> I saw something on the history channel that gave me an idea. It was a Spanish warship that had sunk a few hundred years ago in shallow water. Coral had grown all over it and had created an artificial reef. Small fish have an advantage in coral reefs because the predatory bigger fish cannot effectively hunt in those tight spaces. My notion then is that if we created monsterously large artificial reefs, then the smaller fish could use them as fishy convention centers, breeding grounds, that sort of thing. Then larger fish could hang out on the periphery, devouring the stray smaller fish, and still bigger fish could devour those, and so on. So my reasoning is that if there were massive artificial reefs, then the total mass of fish could be raised. Since fish are about 10 percent carbon and about a third oxygen by weight (the rest mostly hydrogen) then increasing the total mass of fish would help reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which should warm the global cockles of the hearts of the environmental crowd. Fisher-humans should like the idea too. The second part of the idea is how to make the reefs: harvest some really big trees, take them out a short ways from the shore, put weights around the bases of the trunks, toss them overboard. They come to a rest with the buoyant branches upward, which eventually get encrusted with coral, forming a nice artificial reef. Whaddya think? spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 07:59:41 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:59:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <4212C497.8060803@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > The important thing is that the simulation argument is the > > meme virus by which we can infect theists worldwide with > transhumanism. > > Infect people with a non-personally-believed meme! What a > wonderfully euphemistic way of saying, "lie". Oh please Eli, you are not THAT pollyannish. Besides, how do YOU know its a lie if you can't prove it to be false? So, no, it isn't a lie. It is presenting a transhumanist worldview in language that a theist can understand and accept because it works in their memespace. What you are really saying is that it is too contrary to the immature and insecure atheism that you cling to too tightly for a truly rational man, for you to be able to communicate with people in a different memespace in a way they can understand and accept. You being a bad salesman of something you don't believe in with all your heart is a different thing from the idea being a lie. I would have thought that a self-declared "Bayesian master" such as yourself would have seen the obvious odds inherent in the SA and admitted that your atheism is not so much of a sure thing as you had once believed. Or is it that you think humanity will have no future, that AI will wipe it out and have no need of running simulations? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From neptune at superlink.net Wed Feb 16 12:23:23 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:23:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness References: <200502160437.j1G4bVh02374@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <002001c51422$80392740$d3893cd1@pavilion> On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:35 PM spike spike66 at comcast.net wrote: > My notion then is that if we created monsterously > large artificial reefs, then the smaller fish could > use them as fishy convention centers, breeding grounds, > that sort of thing. Then larger fish could hang out > on the periphery, devouring the stray smaller fish, > and still bigger fish could devour those, and so on. > So my reasoning is that if there were massive artificial > reefs, then the total mass of fish could be raised. I know artificial reefs are often intentionally created by purposely sinking old ships and barges in certain areas. [snip] > The second part of the idea is how to make the reefs: > harvest some really big trees, take them out a short > ways from the shore, put weights around the bases of the > trunks, toss them overboard. They come to a rest > with the buoyant branches upward, which eventually get > encrusted with coral, forming a nice artificial reef. Sounds like a good idea. Would the trees last long enough to become encrusted? I guess it would depend on wave action, water temperature, and such. Later! Dan http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/ From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 14:09:20 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:09:20 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Quantum Diaries' reveal the secret lives of modern physicists Message-ID: <470a3c52050216060960d55076@mail.gmail.com> What is it like to be a physicist in 2005, 100 years after Einstein pushed physics to a new frontier? A new website featuring researchers at Stanford and around the globe is helping answer that question by cataloging the daily lives of more than 25 physicists. Quantum Diaries (http://www.quantumdiaries.org) celebrates the World Year of Physics by recording the experiences, thoughts, impressions, triumphs and disappointments of these men and women in their blogs, which is short for weblogs, or web-based logs. The response so far has been stunning. Quantum Diaries was launched on Jan. 13 and garnered more than 45,000 visits by the end of the month. Some of the physicists' weblogs are getting nearly 1,000 visits per day. http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/february16/qd-021605.html From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 14:16:19 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:16:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] IHT: 'GI, Robot' rolls toward the battlefield Message-ID: <470a3c5205021606161d42ad77@mail.gmail.com> The robot soldier is coming. The Pentagon predicts that robots will be a major fighting force in the American military in less than a decade, hunting and killing enemies in combat. Robots are a crucial part of the U.S. Army's effort to rebuild itself as a 21st-century fighting force, and a $127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is the biggest military contract in American history. The military plans to invest tens of billions of dollars in automated armed forces. The costs of that transformation will help drive the Defense Department's budget up almost 20 percent, from a requested $419.3 billion for next year to $502.3 billion in 2010, excluding the costs of war. The annual cost of buying new weapons is scheduled to rise 52 percent, to $118.6 billion from $78 billion. Military planners say robot soldiers will think, see and react increasingly like humans. In the beginning, they will be remote-controlled, looking and acting like lethal toy trucks. As the technology develops, they may take many shapes. And as their intelligence grows, so will their autonomy. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/16/business/robot.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:16:15 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:16:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IHT: 'GI, Robot' rolls toward the battlefield In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205021606161d42ad77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216151615.55139.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > The robot soldier is coming. The Pentagon predicts that robots will > be a major fighting force in the American military in less than a > decade, > hunting and killing enemies in combat. Robots are a crucial part of > the U.S. Army's effort to rebuild itself as a 21st-century fighting > force, and a $127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is the > biggest military contract in American history. Aw, just call it SkyNet and be done with it... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 16 16:10:05 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:10:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <002001c51422$80392740$d3893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <200502161613.j1GGCih29904@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Technotranscendence > > I know artificial reefs are often intentionally created by purposely > sinking old ships and barges in certain areas. Trees would be better. Branches are great for small fish to swim around in, and they don't cost much. > > The second part of the idea is how to make the reefs: > > harvest some really big trees... > > Sounds like a good idea. Would the trees last long enough to become > encrusted? I guess it would depend on wave action, water temperature, > and such. Dan The old wooden ships lasted long enough to be crusted over, so I would assume trees would. They don't really need to last forever: once the coral and barnacles and things cover them sufficiently, it doesn't matter much what happens to the wood underneath. It would be ok if they had a couple centuries life too, since it would be simple to refresh them. Im thinking of that big continental shelf that sticks out east of my childhood home, Cape Canaveral Florida. The shipping lanes go mostly outside of that (other than the ones carrying dope into shore in the night I mean), and most of that is 20 to 50 meters in depth, so it would make a great place for an enormous experimental artificial reef. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 16:42:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:42:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <200502161613.j1GGCih29904@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050216164208.30368.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Technotranscendence > > > > I know artificial reefs are often intentionally created by > purposely > > sinking old ships and barges in certain areas. > > Trees would be better. Branches are great for small > fish to swim around in, and they don't cost much. Plus you get the added bonus of confusing the greenie tree huggers who can'd decide which is more important: trees or coral? The enterainment value is priceless.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megao at sasktel.net Wed Feb 16 17:23:56 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:23:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'GI, Robot' rolls toward the battlefield Message-ID: <421381AC.9060809@sasktel.net> Just like with the transistor on a chip for computers, the internet, and GPS satellites , robots are the next big thing the military technologists are perfecting. I hate war as a reason for doing anything , but without the USA military it is unlikely we would have developed the modern technological world we do now at anywhere near the speed we have without military applications to pay for the R&D and initial field-testing. Ordinary business people just do not have the financially motivated drive to start and finish these kind of mega-projects. The universal replacement for human physical bodies is perhaps 10-20 years away thanks to General Dynamics. Now if Kurzweil, Gates, Allen and Dell and a consortium of biotech-based billionaires can convince these same guys that longer lifespans and more durable human bodies are useful to enable extended space voyages to successfully colonize other worlds, beginning with the moon , that one might get the same mega-project status. Or perhaps it will be a Chinese military project, as they seem to lack the ethical timidity to undertake such things. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [extropy-chat] IHT: 'GI, Robot' rolls toward the battlefield Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:16:19 +0100 From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Reply-To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 , ExI chat list To: hitbangpost at googlegroups.com, transhumantech at yahoogroups.com, ExI chat list The robot soldier is coming. The Pentagon predicts that robots will be a major fighting force in the American military in less than a decade, hunting and killing enemies in combat. Robots are a crucial part of the U.S. Army's effort to rebuild itself as a 21st-century fighting force, and a $127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is the biggest military contract in American history. The military plans to invest tens of billions of dollars in automated armed forces. The costs of that transformation will help drive the Defense Department's budget up almost 20 percent, from a requested $419.3 billion for next year to $502.3 billion in 2010, excluding the costs of war. The annual cost of buying new weapons is scheduled to rise 52 percent, to $118.6 billion from $78 billion. Military planners say robot soldiers will think, see and react increasingly like humans. In the beginning, they will be remote-controlled, looking and acting like lethal toy trucks. As the technology develops, they may take many shapes. And as their intelligence grows, so will their autonomy. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/16/business/robot.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 16 19:53:27 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:53:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> Message-ID: <20050216195327.84350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > Dan Clemmensen writes: > > Assume a perfect simulation.... > > > > Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? > > > > 1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. > > 2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. > > 3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. > > 4) falsifiable? No. > > Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this > is not absolutely > > fatal. We must still decide between > > the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: > > 5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or > without the > > assumption? > > Without. That's it, ignore it henceforth unless > new evidence arises. > > The simulation argument is not an assumption. It is > an argument. > It is logic, not science. [etc.] A scientific theory is logic which attempts to explain some facet of the real world. The simulation argument is also logic which attempts to explain some facet of the real world. In general for this type of logic, it has been humanity's experience that science works best, and that logic which does not adhere to science's precepts - rejecting unfalsifiable arguments, for example - is almost always useless. (For example, many a theory has been proposed which was unfalsifiable at the time; later, when people came up with ways to test it undreamt of by the theory's creators, the theory was almost inevitably proven false. Given the high number of such data points throughout the history of human civilization, we can conclude that any presently unfalsifiable theory is >99.999% probably also false.) Ergo, either the SA is science (which it's not: again, it's unfalsifiable) or it's so likely to be bogus that it is a waste of time and other resources (like credibility) to seriously consider it (Pascal's-Wager-like arguments notwithstanding, but even those have been debunked in terms of deciding what one should do or believe). From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 20:43:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216195327.84350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > A scientific theory is logic which attempts to explain > some facet of the real world. The simulation argument > is also logic which attempts to explain some facet of > the real world. In general for this type of logic, it > has been humanity's experience that science works > best, and that logic which does not adhere to > science's precepts - rejecting unfalsifiable > arguments, for example - is almost always useless. > (For example, many a theory has been proposed which > was unfalsifiable at the time; later, when people came > up with ways to test it undreamt of by the theory's > creators, the theory was almost inevitably proven > false. Given the high number of such data points > throughout the history of human civilization, we can > conclude that any presently unfalsifiable theory is > >99.999% probably also false.) On the contrary, you need to distinguish between unfalsifiable arguments based on logic and which works to maximize scientific rigor as is possible, and unfalsifiable arguments which are plainly based on superstition from the get go. For example, Fermats Last Theorem was unfalsifiable for many years, as previously noted, as were many other theories, theorems, etc. until they were proven. It is perfectly acceptable to assume such arguments are untrue by default until proven otherwise, HOWEVER it is entirely unscientific to dismiss research that works to prove unproven arguments. Real scientists are honest enough to distinguish between unproven, currently unprovable, and absolutely unprovable. What is really surprising to me are the number of people here who are ardent cryonicists, betting their fortunes and lives on what can very easily be regarded as a Pascals-wager-type risk, but won't make the same bet on the SA. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From russell.wallace at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 21:32:49 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:32:49 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> References: <467635c7868c3b8a0482f60f7e057f05@mac.com> <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike wrote: > > Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some > sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one > observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the > cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that > be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species > to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones > to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. > So where are the others? I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; what's to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical need for the existence of aliens. However, one doesn't particularly need to assume their nonexistence either; one can simply postulate that the speed of light is as absolute a barrier as it appears to be. Then the nearest extraterrestrial civilization could be a billion years older than we are and be perfectly consistent with observation, provided they're at least a billion light years away so signals or probes from them haven't had time to reach us yet. Would you be happier with this explanation? - Russell From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 16 22:01:36 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216220136.13960.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > What is really surprising to me are the number of > people here who are > ardent cryonicists, betting their fortunes and lives > on what can very > easily be regarded as a Pascals-wager-type risk, but > won't make the > same bet on the SA. The SA makes no suppositions on what the "real" world outside the sim is like, and gives no intrinsic guidance for its effects on our world. It could as easily be good as bad. With cryonics, one takes an honest look at the broad course of human history, and sees that things have generally gotten better for almost everyone as technology improved. (This is "better" by the standards of the observer - a hypothetical extremely long lived observer, if there was no one person actually alive in both historical periods under comparison. But, e.g., there were people who saw both the Civil War and WWI, and were freer with a better standard of living at the start of the latter than at the start of the former.) It therefore seems likely that, by the time technology improves to where cryo patients can be usefully revived, the world will in general be even better than it is now. The odds of the world getting worse in that time are, based on the strongest evidence we have (history), less than the odds of improvement. Besides, there's nothing to really bet on with the SA - everything's the same if it's a sim or not, and you can't even place bets on that because there's no way to prove it. Whereas with cryo, there is usually a very measurable difference between being alive and being dead. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 22:25:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike > wrote: > > > > Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some > > sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one > > observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the > > cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that > > be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species > > to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones > > to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. > > So where are the others? > > I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; > what's to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical > need for the existence of aliens. There is a very practical reason: we want the aliens to beam us the designs for a warp drive. We also need to send them a royalty bill for all the great entertainment we've been beaming out to them for decades. The baby boomer generation looked at radio comm as a mantra proof that it was possible for humanity to survive the nuclear age. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From russell.wallace at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 22:41:35 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:41:35 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4212C497.8060803@pobox.com> <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0502161441325f214f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:59:41 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Oh please Eli, you are not THAT pollyannish. Besides, how do YOU know > its a lie if you can't prove it to be false? So, no, it isn't a lie. It > is presenting a transhumanist worldview in language that a theist can > understand and accept because it works in their memespace. You appeared to be advocating preaching the simulation argument on the basis of "I myself don't necessarily believe it, but it will suit our purposes to convince other people of it", which would be dishonest - was that your intent? If not, if your intent was to preach the simulation argument on the basis that you believe it to be true, then that wouldn't be a lie. > What you are really saying is that it is too contrary to the immature > and insecure atheism that you cling to too tightly for a truly rational > man, for you to be able to communicate with people in a different > memespace in a way they can understand and accept. You being a bad > salesman of something you don't believe in with all your heart is a > different thing from the idea being a lie. I'm an agnostic, and I've quite happily debated Creationism on the grounds of "the book of Genesis says the world was created in epochs of increasing complexity, starting with a flash of light; so if you believe the Bible to be the word of God, then you should reject Creationism". I'm still not going to start preaching the simulation argument, because I don't regard it as anything other than an unverifiable expression of faith, like any other religion. Indeed, you yourself likened it to Pascal's Wager, but there's a difference - if you accept Pascal's argument, this should influence your actions because the practical consequences of those actions will differ if Pascal's argument is true. How does this apply to the simulation argument? Even if SA is true (and I'm not making any claims about whether it is true, false or undefined), what practical benefit would accrue from believing it? - Russell From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 16 22:58:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:58:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fd960865021f190e0537798855f3981@mac.com> On Feb 15, 2005, at 11:59 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >> Mike Lorrey wrote: >>> The important thing is that the simulation argument is the >>> meme virus by which we can infect theists worldwide with >> transhumanism. >> >> Infect people with a non-personally-believed meme! What a >> wonderfully euphemistic way of saying, "lie". > > Oh please Eli, you are not THAT pollyannish. Besides, how do YOU know > its a lie if you can't prove it to be false? So, no, it isn't a lie. It > is presenting a transhumanist worldview in language that a theist can > understand and accept because it works in their memespace. > > What you are really saying is that it is too contrary to the immature > and insecure atheism that you cling to too tightly for a truly rational > man, for you to be able to communicate with people in a different > memespace in a way they can understand and accept. You being a bad > salesman of something you don't believe in with all your heart is a > different thing from the idea being a lie. This is skirting close to personal attack. Back off this energy. > > I would have thought that a self-declared "Bayesian master" such as > yourself would have seen the obvious odds inherent in the SA and > admitted that your atheism is not so much of a sure thing as you had > once believed. For me at least atheism is needed to keep from being sucked into mysticism and superstition as I seem wired to all too easily do. Sitting on the fence because there may be a super intelligent being that cooked this up is an invitation to never learn to become fully free of a lot of dangerous krap. That something *may be* is a poor excuse for acting as if it is so. It certainly in no way justifies lame attacks on those who do not believe it is so. > - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Feb 16 23:01:11 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:01:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] IHT: 'GI, Robot' rolls toward the battlefield In-Reply-To: <20050216151615.55139.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216151615.55139.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <83517dd8b42859a1fc4cd9f43028af9e@mac.com> SkyNet is another proposal. it is closer than you think. On Feb 16, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >> The robot soldier is coming. The Pentagon predicts that robots will >> be a major fighting force in the American military in less than a >> decade, >> hunting and killing enemies in combat. Robots are a crucial part of >> the U.S. Army's effort to rebuild itself as a 21st-century fighting >> force, and a $127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is the >> biggest military contract in American history. > > Aw, just call it SkyNet and be done with it... > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 16 23:13:58 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:13:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> I always figured that alien signals would be encrypted and disguised as background radiation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "Russell Wallace" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > --- Russell Wallace wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike > > wrote: > > > > > > Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some > > > sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one > > > observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the > > > cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that > > > be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species > > > to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones > > > to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. > > > So where are the others? > > > > I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; > > what's to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical > > need for the existence of aliens. > > There is a very practical reason: we want the aliens to beam us the > designs for a warp drive. We also need to send them a royalty bill for > all the great entertainment we've been beaming out to them for decades. > > The baby boomer generation looked at radio comm as a mantra proof that > it was possible for humanity to survive the nuclear age. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 17 00:48:10 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:48:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050216184730.019b0778@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 05:13 PM 2/16/2005 -0600, Kevin wrote: >I always figured that alien signals would be encrypted and disguised as >background radiation. There are no alien signals in my psi book. What are you talking about? Damien Broderick From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 17 01:21:57 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:21:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> References: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> Message-ID: <4213F1B5.2050709@cox.net> Hal Finney wrote: >Dan Clemmensen writes: > > >>Assume a perfect simulation.... >> >>Here is the way I analyze such a proposition? >> >>1) logical and self-consistent? Yes. >>2) consistent with observed phenomena? Yes. >>3) useful explanatory power? Maybe. >>4) falsifiable? No. >> Oops! our hypothesis is in trouble, but this is not absolutely >> fatal. We must still decide between >> the assumption and the null hypothesis, so: >>5) (Occam's razor) Is the system simpler with or without the >>assumption? >>Without. That's it, ignore it henceforth unless new evidence arises. >> >> > >The simulation argument is not an assumption. It is an argument. >It is logic, not science. >[SNIP] > >In the case of the SA, A = "the human race is unlikely to go extinct >before becoming posthuman"; B = "any posthuman civilization is likely >to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history >(or variations thereof)"; C = "we are likely to be living in a computer >simulation". > > Sorry, you are correct. was arguing against the SH, not the SA in you terminology. >{SNIP Hal's recap of when and how to use Falsifiability and Occam's Razor] > > >If we were dealing with a Simulation Hypothesis, which was simply >that we are living in a simulation, then you would be right to demand >falsifiability and use Occam's Razor. But we are not. We are dealing >with a Simulation Argument, and you should look at it as a piece of logic, >not a hypothesis about the nature of reality. > > Again, you are correct. However, we now go back to your premises A and B. Unfortunately, they are falsifiable only in the containing "real" universe, not in the sim, so we are still in trouble. You have committed a level shift from the rule set of the sim to the rule set of "reality." This in turn requires yet another unfalsifiable assumption: that statements of probability derived from observations in the sim somehow apply to the containing world. I must therefore apply falsifiability and Occam's razor to your entire resulting logical structure, including its premises rather than to the conclusion, I reach the same result: your additional assumptions increase the complexity without changing the result, so I will stay with the null hypothesis. By the way, thanks for your post: it clarifies an important distinction. From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 17 01:44:38 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:44:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4213F706.4040406@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >On the contrary, you need to distinguish between unfalsifiable >arguments based on logic and which works to maximize scientific rigor >as is possible, and unfalsifiable arguments which are plainly based on >superstition from the get go. > >For example, Fermats Last Theorem was unfalsifiable for many years, as >previously noted, as were many other theories, theorems, etc. until >they were proven. > > > Mike, there is a fundamental difference between "unfalsifiable" and unproven." Godel (et. al.) proved in the 1930's that mathematical assertions fall into three categories, not two. Before that time, logician and mathematicians assumed that any formal mathematical statement was either "true" or"false." Since Godel, we know that a mathematical statement can be in one of three categories: "true", "false" or "provably undecidable." Fermat's last theorem was not "provably undecidable." is was merely unproven. (The fourth category, "unproven," means only that the statement has not yet been categorized.) "Unfalsifiable" is to formal philosophy as "provably undecidable" is to mathematics. That is, if my best argument, using the rules of philosophy, show that a statement is unfalsifiable, then that statement is as firmly placed in that third category as a different statement can be placed in the "true" category or the "false" category by equally cogent argument. Since the time of Whitehead and Russell, philosophers have been converging the rules of philosophical argument with the rules of mathematical argument. Thus, if a hypothesis is unproven, I'm still interested in the argument. If the hypothesis is provably unfalsifiable to my satisfaction, I'm no longer interested. From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 17 01:52:01 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:52:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <4213F8C1.4060006@cox.net> kevinfreels.com wrote: >I always figured that alien signals would be encrypted and disguised as >background radiation. > > > Not disguised, merely efficient. If you are trying to maximize the information rate of you signal in the presence of noise for a particular transmission power, your signal ends up looking like noise. After spending more than 30 years purely in the digital domain, I'm now working for a company that make IP-over-satellite equipment. I was astounded to discover that a really efficient signal looks like noise. From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 17 02:02:14 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:02:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <20050216164208.30368.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216164208.30368.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4213FB26.4080705@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- spike wrote: > > >>Trees would be better. Branches are great for small >>fish to swim around in, and they don't cost much. >> >> > >Plus you get the added bonus of confusing the greenie tree huggers who >can'd decide which is more important: trees or coral? The enterainment >value is priceless.... > > > Actually, There are good trees and bad trees. If you make the reefs from clear-cut old-growth rain forests, that's a net loss in biodiversity. If you make the reef from factory-farmed trees or junk such as California Eucalyptus, that's a win. Even better would by recycled paper: Paper mache reefs! Of course we should cover the trees or bundles paper in recycled plastic. That ends up sequestering the carbon for a good long time. There is one teensy problem to solve here: artificial reefs are made out of stuff that sinks, not stuff that floats. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Feb 17 02:17:25 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:17:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205021606161d42ad77@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5205021606161d42ad77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050212/bob9.asp Life on the Scales: Simple mathematical relationships underpin much of biology and ecology. "A mouse lives just a few years, while an elephant can make it to age 70. in a sense, however, both animals fit in the same amount of life experince. In its brief life, a mouse squeezes in, on average, as many heartbeats and breaths as an elephant does. [...]" Regards, MB From sentience at pobox.com Thu Feb 17 02:18:59 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:18:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <4213F1B5.2050709@cox.net> References: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> <4213F1B5.2050709@cox.net> Message-ID: <4213FF13.1010807@pobox.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > However, we now go back to your premises A and B. Unfortunately, they > are falsifiable only in the containing "real" universe, not in the sim, > so we are still in trouble. You have committed a level shift from the > rule set of the sim to the rule set of "reality." This in turn requires > yet another unfalsifiable assumption: that statements of probability > derived from observations in the sim somehow apply to the containing > world. The Simulation Argument says that, under certain premises, the conclusion that this world is probably real is *inconsistent* because this world taken at face value would contain more simulations of ancestors than ancestors. Whether the Red Pill Universe matches our own is not specified by the SA; what SA just says is that if you accept the premises as probably-true-at-face-value given the face value of our universe, you are forced to the conclusion that something other than face value applies - that we are a computer simulation within an enclosing world that may or may not resemble our own; or that our world is base-level and some other, unknown and unpostulated force forbids all simulations or sharply reduces their frequency. > I must therefore apply falsifiability and Occam's razor to your > entire resulting logical structure, including its premises rather than > to the conclusion, I reach the same result: your additional assumptions > increase the complexity without changing the result, so I will stay with > the null hypothesis. That doesn't help if it leaves your "null hypothesis" (the world at face value) inconsistent with itself. Occam's Razor cannot rescue an inconsistent hypothesis. Drawing on the terminology from "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation": The Simulation Argument confesses its ignorance of the enclosing universe and leaves the Simulation Hypothesis vague. SA says that, if the SA premises are implied by the "face value" hypothesis ~SH, then ~SH is *stupid* with respect to the data. It is a theorem in classical logic that if not-P implies P then P. Similarly, the Simulation Argument is that ~SH implies SH, therefore SH. More precisely, the Simulation Argument is that the Face Value Hypothesis FV implies a Simulation Hypothesis SH1 which implies ~FV, therefore ~FV. We cannot conclude SH1, but we can conclude ~FV. We can't conclude that our world is a computer simulation; but we can conclude our world cannot be taken at face value because it is inconsistent to suppose that our world is probably the bottom layer of reality. Still more precisely, the Simulation Argument says that to deny this conclusion you must deny one of the premises of the Simulation Argument. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From kevin at kevinfreels.com Thu Feb 17 03:07:33 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:07:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Strange Phenomenon - Cloud Rings Message-ID: <010e01c5149d$d3a98390$0100a8c0@kevin> I saw something extremely odd, but exciting today that I can't explain. It was a pair of cloud rings in the sky. I was traveling north on the highway from Evansville, Indiana to Princeton, Indiana going from my old house to the one I just purchased. The distance between city limits is approximately 22 miles. As a student pilot and a builder of amateur rockets, I spend a great deal of time observing the sky and calculating distance. I am not great at it, but better than the average Joe who only looks up AFTER a helicopter has flown over his head. When I began heading north, the rings were north east of me just above the horizon. I eastimated the distance north to be just about 20 miles with the clouds at an altitude of about 10,000-15,000 feet AGL. The general texture was like that of alto-cumulus. There were two distinct rings almost right on top of each other. I estimate the rings were about 3/4 mile in diameter and each was about 300-500 ft thick. The rings were almost perfectly round, not spherical. They were consistent in thickness all the way around. Both rings had a small break on the side facing me. I really wish I had had my camera! My camera phone was entirely inadequate for the task due to it's short focal length. I kept watching it on the way home. I expected it to be some kind of optical illusion, but by the time I arrived home, I was in a position just to the west of it. The rings had drifted a bit oblong, but they were still intact. The side with the small break in it was no longer visable because it was no longer facing me, but my initial estimates on size and position still seemed accurate. The rings, two of them stacked, were far too thick and low for contrails, so I have to rule that out. SO what caused it? Any ideas? This was a really amazing sight! I came home and G**gled a few things and didn;t come up with much. Here are some links to give you an idea of what it looked like. The first one gives you an idea of the general appearance, but without the tail and much more "puffy". They were also closer to the ground and not so "whispy". The caption says "stratospheric" but it is possibly a contrail distorted by high level winds. The one I saw today was not, and as I said, it kept it's shape for at least the 25 minutes that I was driving on the highway. http://wmb1.com/images/scienc2-3_1.jpg http://www.komotv.com/weather/viewer_pics/images/5753-cloud1.jpg Here is a single ring. The rings I saw today seemed to have a much larger diameter and were more "firm" I could not see through t hem at all and the edges were more defined. http://www.ventephoto.com/imageb.htm I can almost see how this happened. There are no mountains in Evansville, Indiana. We're lucky to see a decent hill. This is nothing at all like what I saw today. http://aguila1.vtrbandaancha.net/imagenes/life.jpg This is pretty neat, but again, not as perfect. And there is only one. At the time I thought it was neat, but entirely explainable. http://mikuna.image.pbase.com/u45/w_d_p/small/29130260.skyrings.jpg Here's an optical illusion caused by backlighting of the clouds. For 16 years I was a professional photographer. (Moved on to new interests) I know the difference. The sun was in the southwest whiile the cloud was in the northeast. I found some other things but there were about UFOs and such. Is anyone here familiar with this phenomenon? My zip code is 47711 if you want to wunderground the conditions for today. I'd like to have some idea of how this occurred! Kevin Freels -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 04:04:32 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:04:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <4213FB26.4080705@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502170407.j1H46lh22494@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Clemmensen ... > Actually, There are good trees and bad trees. If you make the reefs from > clear-cut old-growth rain forests, that's a net loss in biodiversity... And can durn near get you executed in some parts of the country. > If you make the reef from factory-farmed trees or junk such as California > Eucalyptus, that's a win... Thats what I had in mind, eucalyptus. Grows fast. > Of course we should cover the trees or bundles paper in recycled > plastic. That ends up sequestering the carbon for a good long time. Possible I suppose but unnecessary. > > There is one teensy problem to solve here: artificial reefs are made out > of stuff that sinks, not stuff that floats... Ja but a teensy problem indeed. Tie something heavy, cheap and plentiful to the base of the trunk, such as a large piece of stone. After a few years, the weight of the coral might suffice to sink any branches that break off. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 04:11:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <4213FF13.1010807@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050217041119.98265.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > The Simulation Argument says that, under certain premises, the > conclusion that this world is probably real is *inconsistent* > because this world taken at face value would contain more > simulations of ancestors than ancestors. See, now THAT is what I expect to hear from a Bayesian master. See, Samantha, what an occasional testosterone challenge will produce? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 04:17:49 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:17:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Strange Phenomenon - Cloud Rings In-Reply-To: <010e01c5149d$d3a98390$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050217041749.98482.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What time of day was this? I would say that they were likely the result of a thermal updraft. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Feb 17 04:45:25 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:45:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan In-Reply-To: References: <470a3c5205021606161d42ad77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f80764f092b6d977d7ec218365bedef@mac.com> This would only follow if the rest of the universe ran faster for the mouse. Alas the clock rate of external and many internal events is not geared faster for the sake of the mouse squeezing as much in. On Feb 16, 2005, at 6:17 PM, MB wrote: > > http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050212/bob9.asp > > Life on the Scales: Simple mathematical relationships underpin much > of biology and ecology. > > "A mouse lives just a few years, while an elephant can make it to age > 70. in a sense, however, both animals fit in the same amount of life > experince. In its brief life, a mouse squeezes in, on average, as many > heartbeats and breaths as an elephant does. [...]" > > Regards, > MB > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Feb 17 05:51:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:51:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Hunger For Dictatorship Message-ID: The following article in American Conservative should give those pause who think that the f-word is only applied by those who "hate America" or are "commies" or "looney libertarians". I don't know of much more dangerous to extropic ends than ignoring these trends. > Hunger For Dictatorship War to export democracy may wreck our own. http://www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html Sorry I can't copy the content here. - samantha From abeck at berklee.net Thu Feb 17 06:13:46 2005 From: abeck at berklee.net (Andrew Beck) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:13:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan Message-ID: <5601996.1108620826300.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp14> I've wondered about this before - but it seems like the rest of the universe can appear to move faster for a mouse. If mass is huge amounts of energy concentrated in one place then wouldn't the difference of energy in an elephant and a mouse cause perceived time to change? I came to this conclusion because mass increases as velocity increases, and as velocity increases time dilation occurs. So if we take velocity and mass as traditionaly measured units that are two seemingly different percevable offshoot of energy, then wouldn't time dilation occur when mass (energy content) changes? I'm not sure if that's a huge jump in logic, but it's just a thought I had. --------------------------------------- Original Email From: Samantha Atkins Sent: Feb 16, 2005 11:45 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan This would only follow if the rest of the universe ran faster for the mouse. Alas the clock rate of external and many internal events is not geared faster for the sake of the mouse squeezing as much in. On Feb 16, 2005, at 6:17 PM, MB wrote: > > http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050212/bob9.asp > > Life on the Scales: Simple mathematical relationships underpin much > of biology and ecology. > > "A mouse lives just a few years, while an elephant can make it to age > 70. in a sense, however, both animals fit in the same amount of life > experince. In its brief life, a mouse squeezes in, on average, as many > heartbeats and breaths as an elephant does. [...]" > > Regards, > MB > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 06:31:05 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:31:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pet cloning company Message-ID: <470a3c5205021622316db3ee4c@mail.gmail.com> The company Genetic Savings and Clone Inc. (http://www.savingsandclone.com/) offers pet cloning services. According to their website cat cloning is available now and dog cloning will be available soon. The website is well done and the science seems serious enough, at least the terminology is correct. Current prices are of the order of 30k bucks per cloned pet. They offer gene banking services as a first step: "Gene banking is always the first step in the cloning process. PetBank is our state-of-the-art gene banking facility, where we save the DNA from our clients' pets until they're ready to clone them. After your pet's DNA is saved in PetBank, you'll have the peace of mind of knowing you can clone your pet when the time is right for you." They have now launched a new advocacy website (http://www.yespetcloning.org/) as a direct response to the AAVS?sponsored site, NoPetCloning.org: "The American Anti-Vivisection Society (AAVS) wants you to believe that pet cloning is harmful in many ways to animals, exacerbates the pet overpopulation problem, and exploits grieving clients with false promises. The truth is essentially the reverse: Genetic Savings & Clone (GSC) provides a variety of benefits to animals, both domestic and endangered; reduces the pet overpopulation problem; and provides a valuable service to grateful consumers." People love their pets, so it is reasonable to assume that Genetic Savings & Clone will have many customers once they manage to lower their prices. In time, this can help overcoming public fears of genetic and cloning technologies. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 07:01:46 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:01:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan In-Reply-To: <5601996.1108620826300.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp14> Message-ID: <200502170704.j1H73xh16087@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Beck > Subject: Re[2]: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan > > I've wondered about this before - but it seems like the rest of the > universe can appear to move faster for a mouse... Andrew I'm sure hoping that time can appear to move (I think you meant to say) slower for a mouse. My reasoning is based on the notion that signals can move thru the brain of the mouse much more quickly than thru the brain of the elephant, since the distances are much smaller. I don't follow your argument about time dilation, but rather see it as simply a linear scaling effect. Nowthen, I do fondly hope that perceived time does go much slower for the mouse (a minute is a lot longer for Mickey than for Dumbo). I have a notion that someday humanity may figure out how to simulate a neuron to such fidelity that we can simulate 10 billion of them and thus simulate a brain. If so, ultimately we would upload into the ultimate computer, which would be a nanoscale mechanical device. Punchline: a simulated human brain could perhaps be run on a device the size if the head of a speck. If so, I have every reason to think a second might be perceived as you and I do a minute. Regardless of how advanced we get, shit happens still: tsunamis wash over unexpectedly, earthquakes wreck things. And no matter if we solve all that, heat death of the universe is coming eventually, many billions of years from now. In the best case I want all the life multipliers I can get. If I only get 10 years of uploaded existence, but I perceive it as 600 years, well thats better than 10. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 07:32:30 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Russell Wallace > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike wrote: > > > > So where are the others? > > I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; what's > to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical need for the > existence of aliens... Want or not want is orthogonal to my puzzlement about why they are not there. Even still, I disagree with the notion that we have no practical need for the existence of aliens, but that's a whole nuther topic. > However, one doesn't particularly need to assume their nonexistence > either; one can simply postulate that the speed of light is as > absolute a barrier as it appears to be... I do assume that the speed of light is absolute, and that we have no magic physics yet to be discovered. > Then the nearest > extraterrestrial civilization could be a billion years older than we > are and be perfectly consistent with observation, provided they're at > least a billion light years away so signals or probes from them > haven't had time to reach us yet. Would you be happier with this > explanation? > > - Russell Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. I'm not ready to accept the notion that technological civilizations are short-lived. The Drake equation, as I understand it, suggests tech-capable civs must be short lived. Otherwise we are hard up for an explanation for why we aren't hearing or seeing them. spike From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 09:26:49 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:26:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Robert Bigelow to launch orbital resort by 2010 Message-ID: As seen on RLV News, Popular Science's March issue has a cover feature on Robert Bigelow and his plans for inflatable space habitats: "The Five-Billion-Star Hotel" http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,20967,1027551-1,00.html I believe this is the first article to mention Bigelow's plans to launch an orbital resort by 2010, tentatively titled the "CSS (Commercial Space Station) Skywalker." Previous articles only mentioned his intention to sell modules to others, such as scientists, manufacturers, Hollywood producers, and countries. The habitats are constructed from inflatable modules, with multilayered kevlar-like walls. A prototype habitat will be launching on a SpaceX Falcon V next year. To help ensure cost-effective access to the station, Bigelow is also running the $50 million America's Space Prize. The issue also has an article on Bigelow's plans to use the modules to form the basis of "moon cruisers" and "space yachts": http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,20967,1027555,00.html Aviation Week & Space Technology had rather good articles on Bigelow's efforts last year: http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/09274top.xml http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/07054wna.xml From igoddard at umd.edu Thu Feb 17 09:39:05 2005 From: igoddard at umd.edu (igoddard at umd.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:39:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument Message-ID: The hypothesis that the universe could be a computer program is attractive, but Dan may be right that it's unfalsifiable (and thus pseudoscientific). If we and our universe are a computer model (CM), we do not know reality. If we don't know reality, we cannot specify what our universe fails to be in order to establish falsification criteria for a CM hypothesis. In other words, it seems that I cannot say, "If the universe was not a CM, then it would be like x," for what could possibly warrant my knowledge of x? From this it seems to follow that even if the universe is a computer model, we'd never be able to absolutely confirm it because we could not distinguish it from something that we, as artifacts of and within the computer model, do not know. Hal Finney wrote: > >The simulation argument is not an assumption. It is an >argument. It is logic, not science. But since the simulation argument makes empirical claims (ie, claims about the apparently real physical universe) it is properly subject to scientific-knowledge criteria such as the necessity of falsifiability. While it may fail there, it could prove to make useful predictions about the universe, but at best that only confirms that the universe behaves like a computer, not that it necessarily is a computer. Things that can't be falsified can't really be known. >The simulation argument can be expressed in the form, >if A and B, then C. The argument's validity depends only >on whether it is true that A and B together imply C. An >argument is valid if its logic holds. > >The validity of this kind of argument does not depend on >the truth of C. The argument may be valid even if A or B >were false. Only if the argument is valid, and A and B >are both true, can we deduce that C is true. But "if A and B, then C" is a conditional statement, not a logical argument schemata. A valid argument is one where if the premises are all true, the conclusion must be true too. So if the premises of a valid argument are not all true, the conclusion is not necessarily true. For example: 1. If unicorns do not exist, then Batman exists. 2. Batman does not exist. __________________________________ 3. Ergo, it is not the case that unicorns do not exist (so by double negation unicorns exist). That argument schemata (modus tollens) is valid, but the argument is bunk since premise 1 is false. I don't think the SA argument (as you state it below and assuming it's valid) can assure us that all the premises are true and so it might be no better than the valid unicorn argument above. >In the case of the SA, A = "the human race is unlikely to >go extinct before becoming posthuman"; B = "any posthuman >civilization is likely to run a significant number of >simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations >thereof)"; C = "we are likely to be living in a computer >simulation". Obvioulsy we can express that as the argument: 1. The human race is unlikely to go extinct before becoming post human. 2. Any posthuman civilization is likely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof). ______________________________________ 3. Ergo, we are likely to be living in a computer simulation. But we can't really evaluate the logical validity of that argument until it's formalized and the premises do not lend themselves to obvious formalization. But here's a shot: 1. Ex(Hx) -> Ex(Px) 2. Ex(Px) -> Ex(Sx) __________________ 3. Si Fleshed out in words and adding tense: 1. If some things are humans, then some things will be post- human. 2. If some things will be post-human, then some things will be human simulants. _______________________________ 3. Ergo, I am a human simulant. Is there a preferable formalization (it's not my argument so I could be missing it's intent and proper logical structure)? This obviously fails to convey the uncertainly expressed in the SA, but if we want to rest the SA on logical validity, there should be a logical formalization. http://IanGoddard.net/journal.htm David Hume on induction: "When we have lived any time, and have been accustomed to the uniformity of nature, we acquire a general habit, by which we always transfer the known to the unknown, and conceive the latter to resemble the former." From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 10:56:15 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:56:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet Message-ID: <470a3c52050217025618fdafa7@mail.gmail.com> Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI (they claim) on the net. I played a few times trying to make it fail and thought of: myself, a football, several things related to sex, and a soul. The program performed very well. 20Q.net is an experiment in artificial intelligence. The program is very simple but its behavior is complex. Everything that it knows and all questions that it asks were entered by people playing this game. 20Q.net is a learning system; the more it is played, the smarter it gets. http://www.20q.net/ From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Thu Feb 17 12:49:23 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:49:23 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <200502161613.j1GGCih29904@tick.javien.com> References: <200502161613.j1GGCih29904@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421492D3.8090701@optusnet.com.au> spike wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- >>bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Technotranscendence >> >>I know artificial reefs are often intentionally created by purposely >>sinking old ships and barges in certain areas. > > > Trees would be better. Branches are great for small > fish to swim around in, and they don't cost much. > > >>>The second part of the idea is how to make the reefs: >>>harvest some really big trees... >> >>Sounds like a good idea. Would the trees last long enough to become >>encrusted? I guess it would depend on wave action, water temperature, >>and such. Dan > > > The old wooden ships lasted long enough to be crusted > over, so I would assume trees would. They don't really > need to last forever: once the coral and barnacles and > things cover them sufficiently, it doesn't matter much > what happens to the wood underneath. It would be ok > if they had a couple centuries life too, since it would > be simple to refresh them. > > Im thinking of that big continental shelf that sticks > out east of my childhood home, Cape Canaveral Florida. > The shipping lanes go mostly outside of that (other than > the ones carrying dope into shore in the night I mean), > and most of that is 20 to 50 meters in depth, so it would > make a great place for an enormous experimental artificial > reef. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Where I grew up there were Australian Redgum trees that were killed by the building of a major weir. The bottom ten to twenty feet of them has been under water for at least 70 years by now, and many of them are still standing. This is in freshwater though. I don't know what their longevity would be in saltwater, but I think they would last long enough to form a reef. They are probably also heavy enough to sink in salt water. Redgum drops like a rock in fresh water, as do most Australian hardwoods. From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 13:53:19 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:53:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d71341e05021705535f040d7e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:39:05 -0500, igoddard at umd.edu wrote: > The hypothesis that the universe could be a computer program > is attractive, but Dan may be right that it's unfalsifiable > (and thus pseudoscientific). Indeed, I'll go further than that. Consider Newton and Lagrange's formulations of classical mechanics, or the wave and matrix formulations of quantum mechanics. In each case we have two sets of equations which give the same results - we therefore regard the distinction between them as not merely unfalsifiable but meaningless; we say that in each case, the two theories are in fact the _same_ theory. Preference for one over the other is therefore neither true nor false; it's just a matter of what you happen to find more convenient to work with. Now the hypothesis "we are living in a simulation" (if the simulation is assumed to be fully accurate) gives the same results as "we are not living in a simulation". Therefore it can be argued that they are the _same_ hypothesis. So we have a situation where P and not-P are the same statement; therefore, P is a null statement; so the simulation hypothesis actually _has no truth value_. - Russell From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Feb 17 14:16:04 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:16:04 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan In-Reply-To: <5601996.1108620826300.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp14> References: <5601996.1108620826300.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp14> Message-ID: > > > > http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050212/bob9.asp > > > > Life on the Scales: Simple mathematical relationships underpin > > much of biology and ecology. The article is about "the biological clock" concept, an animal's metabolic rate, and metabolic scaling theory. It discusses body temperature, metabolism vs. mass, and free radicals production. My hope in posting the URL was that some more knowledgable folk would comment on the research described in the article. Regards, MB From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 13:58:44 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Science News Article on lifespan In-Reply-To: <5601996.1108620826300.JavaMail.root@ccprodapp14> Message-ID: <20050217135844.47229.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Andrew Beck wrote: > I've wondered about this before - but it seems like the rest of the > universe can appear to move faster for a mouse. > > If mass is huge amounts of energy concentrated in one place then > wouldn't the difference of energy in an elephant and a mouse cause > perceived time to change? > > I came to this conclusion because mass increases as velocity > increases, and as velocity increases time dilation occurs. The difference in velocity between a mouse and an elephant relativistically speaking wrt time dilation is so small as to be of no consequence. What is significant are the respective metabolic rates. Mouse metabolic rates are extremely hot, requiring significant fractions of body mass in food each day (in the example of a shrew, which must eat its full body mass in food each day to survive). Elelphants run very slow, with life spans of the same magnitude as that of humans. It is reasonable to take as a given that two organisms with a similar number of life-time heartbeats genetically programmed but wildly different metabolic rates have, from a qualitative perspective, equal life spans, even though one may die in a year while the other dies in 40. The difference in perceived passage of time does seem related to metabolic rates. Child humans perceive time passing much slower than it does for adults. As we age and our metabolisms slow, time seems to pass even faster. When we see short bursts of metabolic rates (like in adrenal rushes) time seems to come to a drastic slowness or even stop. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 14:34:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:34:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050217025618fdafa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050217143407.48249.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI (they claim) on the > net. I played a few times trying to make it fail and thought of: > myself, a football, several things related to sex, and a soul. The > program performed very well. > 20Q.net is an experiment in artificial intelligence. The program is > very simple but its behavior is complex. Everything that it knows and > all questions that it asks were entered by people playing this game. > 20Q.net is a learning system; the more it is played, the smarter it > gets. > http://www.20q.net/ it is interesting. of course, it isn't generating the questions on the fly, they are in a databank, otherwise it would seem as incongruent as eliza. You win, but 20Q did guess it eventually Play Again You were thinking of a laptop computer. You said it is classified as Mineral, I say Other. Is it more valuable than silver? You said Sometimes, I say No. Does it fit in your wallet? You said Sometimes, I say No. Is it worn? You said Sometimes, I say No. Is it used to make jewelry? You said Sometimes, I say No. Does it require specific knowledge to use it? You said No, I say Yes. Contradictions Detected It does not matter if our answers disagree, as over time the game will change its answers to reflect common knowledge. If you feel that the game is in error, the only way to fix it is to play again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Similar Objects a personal computer, a video cassette recorder, an IMac, a stereo system, a Macintosh computer, a human head, a crock pot, a CD player, a tape recorder, a DVD player, a record player, a waffle iron. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uncommon Knowledge about a laptop computer Does it fold up easily? I say Probably. Is it used with a computer? I say Yes. Is it bright? I say Probably. Do you use it with a computer? I say Yes. Would you pay to use it? I say Yes. Is it heavy? I say No. Is it small? I say Yes. Does it like to play? I say Yes. Is it independent? I say Probably. Can it speak? I say No. Can it affect you(cause an effect to you)? I say Probably. Is it shiny? I say Yes. Is it straight? I say Yes. Does it have bumpy skin? I say Doubtful. Can you read it? I say Yes. Does it break if dropped? I say Yes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 15:10:10 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050217151010.38890.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- igoddard at umd.edu wrote: > The hypothesis that the universe could be a computer program > is attractive, but Dan may be right that it's unfalsifiable > (and thus pseudoscientific). If we and our universe are a > computer model (CM), we do not know reality. If we don't > know reality, we cannot specify what our universe fails to > be in order to establish falsification criteria for a CM > hypothesis. In other words, it seems that I cannot say, "If > the universe was not a CM, then it would be like x," for > what could possibly warrant my knowledge of x? From this it > seems to follow that even if the universe is a computer > model, we'd never be able to absolutely confirm it because > we could not distinguish it from something that we, as > artifacts of and within the computer model, do not know. On the contrary. If this universe were a simulation, then everything about it would be a product of the physical characteristics of the originating universe. One problem with this discussion is that many participants have a very biased view of what a 'simulation' is that is colored by their experiences with human simulation technology to date. It is like saying in the middle ages "this universe is a chessboard". The pieces are so different from humans that one automatically assumes that those who play our game must be significant different from us and their world must operate by much more complex rules than ours. The problem with this position is in the first conception of what is meant by 'chessboard'. Computer game players today are so used to having god powers or using magical spells in the cheap sims we have today that they automatically assume that the sort of sims we talk about in the SA are as capable of operating by magical rules. Magic is possible in current day sims, and not in this 'real' world because magic doesn't HAVE to follow any physical laws, nor do sims which allow magic have to follow any consistent internal set of physical laws that explain everything. Making a sim that is so internally self consistent as ours is going to require its own TOE, theory of everything, that is not self contradictory. Essentially, the set of all possible such universes can be described in M theory, although fanciful physicists might devise other TOEs that apply equally well to other possible sets of universes. Secondly, the whole concept of 'brain in a vat' or 'body in a pod' participants is similarly infantile, but is all too common among SA critics. This is the Matrix concept, that our reality is merely a set of data streaming into minds that have a real existence in the root universe that spawned this one. This is a rather peruile way of conceiving such a simulated universe that falls significantly short of the mark of the kind of technology required to simulate a universe such as ours. Rather the sort of universe at a level of complexity that ours is requires one of two possible methods of simulation: quantum computation in pocket universes, aor quantum computation through matter ballistic conversion in gravitational singularities. There may be other methods to achieve this end, but it is certain that the computational needs of a universe like ours to exist are far greater than can be done by the sort of computational technology we are used to conceiving. Any possible universe described by M theory would require roughly similar magnitudes of computation. > > Hal Finney wrote: > > > >The simulation argument is not an assumption. It is an > >argument. It is logic, not science. > > > But since the simulation argument makes empirical claims > (ie, claims about the apparently real physical universe) it > is properly subject to scientific-knowledge criteria such as > the necessity of falsifiability. While it may fail there, it > could prove to make useful predictions about the universe, > but at best that only confirms that the universe behaves > like a computer, not that it necessarily is a computer. > Things that can't be falsified can't really be known. Well, if our universe is a simulation, we should be able to communicate to its sysop/root, but not necessarily would we be able to hear anything back, even if the root wanted to. It might be said that (and this explains the Fermi paradox as well) the first civilization to reach such a level as to figure out how to communicate to the root triggers the end of the sim, however that is a tiresomely solipsistic view of things that is contradicted by our apparently immense unimportance in the universe. > >The simulation argument can be expressed in the form, > >if A and B, then C. The argument's validity depends only > >on whether it is true that A and B together imply C. An > >argument is valid if its logic holds. > > > >The validity of this kind of argument does not depend on > >the truth of C. The argument may be valid even if A or B > >were false. Only if the argument is valid, and A and B > >are both true, can we deduce that C is true. > > > But "if A and B, then C" is a conditional statement, not a > logical argument schemata. A valid argument is one where if > the premises are all true, the conclusion must be true too. > So if the premises of a valid argument are not all true, the > conclusion is not necessarily true. For example: > > 1. If unicorns do not exist, then Batman exists. > 2. Batman does not exist. > __________________________________ > 3. Ergo, it is not the case that unicorns do not exist > (so by double negation unicorns exist). > > That argument schemata (modus tollens) is valid, but the > argument is bunk since premise 1 is false. I don't think the > SA argument (as you state it below and assuming it's valid) > can assure us that all the premises are true and so it might > be no better than the valid unicorn argument above. Sure, but you need to provide a rigorous reason why it is bunk, because the SA seems to be based on premises which are generally considered valid, to the limit of our current knowledge. The only real variable is whether posthuman civs would attempt truly realistic sims, which is really not that hard a premise to take as a given. > >In the case of the SA, A = "the human race is unlikely to > >go extinct before becoming posthuman"; B = "any posthuman > >civilization is likely to run a significant number of > >simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations > >thereof)"; C = "we are likely to be living in a computer > >simulation". > > > Obvioulsy we can express that as the argument: > > 1. The human race is unlikely to go extinct before becoming > post human. > 2. Any posthuman civilization is likely to run a significant > number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or > variations thereof). > ______________________________________ > 3. Ergo, we are likely to be living in a computer simulation. > > > But we can't really evaluate the logical validity of that > argument until it's formalized and the premises do not lend > themselves to obvious formalization. But here's a shot: > > 1. Ex(Hx) -> Ex(Px) > 2. Ex(Px) -> Ex(Sx) > __________________ > 3. Si > > Fleshed out in words and adding tense: > > 1. If some things are humans, then some things will be post- > human. > 2. If some things will be post-human, then some things will > be human simulants. > _______________________________ > 3. Ergo, I am a human simulant. > > > Is there a preferable formalization (it's not my argument > so I could be missing it's intent and proper logical > structure)? This obviously fails to convey the uncertainly > expressed in the SA, but if we want to rest the SA on > logical validity, there should be a logical formalization. Because you aren't involving the Bayesian probabilities in your formalization that describes the leap from 2 to 3 that is inherent. I would instead say: 2. If some things will be post-human, then some things will tend to be be human simulants. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From kevin at kevinfreels.com Thu Feb 17 15:42:16 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:42:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Strange Phenomenon - Cloud Rings References: <20050217041749.98482.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c51507$431dada0$0100a8c0@kevin> It was about 1:30 pm. IT was so astonishing that I am kicking myself in the rear for selling off my photo equipment. Now I feel I am going to have to go back out and buy a new camera! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Strange Phenomenon - Cloud Rings > What time of day was this? I would say that they were likely the result > of a thermal updraft. > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From CHealey at unicom-inc.com Thu Feb 17 15:39:14 2005 From: CHealey at unicom-inc.com (Christopher Healey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:39:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence Message-ID: <1D68577DAAE6304A89E3C8BC896262A46EBC99@w2k3exch01.UNICOM-INC.CORP> Spike, > Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. I'm > not ready to accept the notion that technological > civilizations are short-lived. The Drake equation, > as I understand it, suggests tech-capable civs must > be short lived. Otherwise we are hard up for an > explanation for why we aren't hearing or seeing > them. > > spike > Dan Clemmensen made a really important point regarding signal efficiency resulting in a signal that approxiamtes noise. Any civilization utilizing broadcast radio transmissions is going to quickly become concerned with achieving optimal bandwidth efficiency. This basically means compressing the data as much as possible. As the data stream becomes more completely compressed, its bit-length will approach its Kolmogorov complexity. If there are still regularities in the transmission, then it follows that those regularities could be taken advantage of for further compression. We are left with what appears to be noise. That should leave us with 2 possible detection scenarios. The first would be the detection of their radio light-sphere. This doesn't seem likely at all, given the point above. At the point where advanced compression comes into regular use, the light sphere will appear to terminate, leaving us with a "light-shell" of time during which to detect anything at all. I think that 300 years from the discovery of radio would be a liberal estimate for that window of opportunity. The light-shell has either already past us, or is still a long-time-coming. Even if we can statistically detect a regular signal at less than the strength of the background radiation, the dispersion over stellar distances would also radically weaken the signal to the point where it may be undiscernable. Further, once the signal is indistinguishable from noise due to compression, a directional power spike in the noise would be the only way to notice anything at all. In other words, once compressed, unless we're close enough to see a power spike in the noise, it'll all be background. The second scenario would be receipt of an intentionally broadcast signal, designed to be detected easily. I'd posit a massively parallel array of directed transmitters, each emitting its directional beam at individual near-field star systems, in order to maximize signal strength. 100 transmitters for 100 stars. This would be the only type of signal we can HOPE of detecting. But would another civilization actually start doing this and sustain the effort for millenia or longer? I'm skeptical. If they have survived past their technological infancy, it seems like taking on a lot of risks for few benefits. I'd expect a civilization that had reached that point of development to be much more coordinated in its actions, and I'm not sure benign curiosity would be a conservative guess on out part; nor would they expect such of us. It would be a contingency that needed to be addressed before taking reckless action. The response window to any future actions taken by either side would be very limited, assuming eventual near-c-velocity travel, supporting this stance. I'd expect this to result in a lot of bias away from emitting EM radiation. I'm all for radio telescopy in general. SETI, however, is minesweeping with binoculars. You'd expect the mines to be buried, but they're hoping one *is* visible. -Chris Healey From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 15:43:18 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:43:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502171545.j1HFjZh29191@tick.javien.com> Ian Goddard! Man where have you been pal? We missed you several years ago, we were worried about you. {8-] I used to read your blog, but lost track of it somehow. Welcome back, long time. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of igoddard at umd.edu > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:39 AM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument > > The hypothesis that the universe could be a computer program > is attractive, but Dan may be right that it's unfalsifiable > (and thus pseudoscientific... From megao at sasktel.net Thu Feb 17 17:08:36 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions Message-ID: <4214CF94.7090107@sasktel.net> -for a "ground cannabis" after 23 it got "I guess a drug but am not allowed to discuss that" -for " cremated remains" it went to about 30 and gave up. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:56:15 +0100 From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Reply-To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 , ExI chat list To: hitbangpost at googlegroups.com, ExI chat list , sl4 at sl4.org Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI (they claim) on the net. I played a few times trying to make it fail and thought of: myself, a football, several things related to sex, and a soul. The program performed very well. 20Q.net is an experiment in artificial intelligence. The program is very simple but its behavior is complex. Everything that it knows and all questions that it asks were entered by people playing this game. 20Q.net is a learning system; the more it is played, the smarter it gets. http://www.20q.net/ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 17:45:19 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:45:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <4214d201.14265c0d.5e54.74b3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> References: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> <4214d201.14265c0d.5e54.74b3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021709451e92010a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0800, spike wrote: > > Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. Well then there's nothing to be puzzled about - we don't have any reason at all to suppose that the fraction of stars that produce technological civilizations is greater than 1e-12. - Russell From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 17 18:27:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:27:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> The BBC is showing a program tonight on cold fusion claims (of a sort). If anyone here watches it, maybe they could report back? =========== Horizon Thu 17 Feb, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins An Experiment to Save the World Horizon takes one of the most controversial and ambitious claims in science, and conducts an experiment to see if it's really true. If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die. The experiment is an attempt to make nuclear fusion, one of the Holy Grails of science. [etc] ============= [here's a piece from last year on Rusi Taleyarkhan's work, from http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-04o.html ] Evidence Bubbles Over To Support Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device Rusi Taleyarkhan, an Oak Ridge National Laboratory scientist is part of a group working towards the dream of sustained fusion energy. West Lafayette - Mar 04, 2004 Researchers are reporting new evidence supporting their earlier discovery of an inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions. The researchers believe the new evidence shows that "sonofusion" generates nuclear reactions by creating tiny bubbles that implode with tremendous force. Nuclear fusion reactors have historically required large, multibillion-dollar machines, but sonofusion devices might be built for a fraction of that cost. "What we are doing, in effect, is producing nuclear emissions in a simple desktop apparatus," said Rusi Taleyarkhan, the principal investigator and a professor of nuclear engineering at Purdue University. "That really is the magnitude of the discovery ? the ability to use simple mechanical force for the first time in history to initiate conditions comparable to the interior of stars." The technology might one day, in theory, lead to a new source of clean energy. It may result in a new class of low-cost, compact detectors for security applications that use neutrons to probe the contents of suitcases; devices for research that use neutrons to analyze the molecular structures of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture new synthetic materials and efficiently produce tritium, which is used for numerous applications ranging from medical imaging to watch dials; and a new technique to study various phenomena in cosmology, including the workings of neutron stars and black holes. Taleyarkhan led the research team while he was a full-time scientist at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and he is now the Arden L. Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear Engineering at Purdue. The new findings are being reported in a paper that will appear this month in the journal Physical Review E, published by the American Physical Society. The paper was written by Taleyarkhan; postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho at Oak Ridge Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist from Oak Ridge; Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, a visiting scholar at RPI and president of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Bashkortonstan branch; and Robert C. Block, active professor emeritus in the School of Engineering at RPI and director of RPI's Gaerttner Linear Accelerator Laboratory. The discovery was first reported in March 2002 in the journal Science. Since then the researchers have acquired additional funding from the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, purchased more precise instruments and equipment to collect more accurate data, and successfully reproduced and improved upon the original experiment, Taleyarkhan said. "A fair amount of very substantial new work was conducted, " Taleyarkhan said. "And also, this time around I made a conscious decision to involve as many individuals as possible ? top scientists and physicists from around the world and experts in neutron science ? to come to the lab and review our procedures and findings before we even submitted the manuscript to a journal for its own independent peer review." The device is a clear glass canister about the height of two coffee mugs stacked on top of one another. Inside the canister is a liquid called deuterated acetone. The acetone contains a form of hydrogen called deuterium, or heavy hydrogen, which contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus. Normal hydrogen contains only one proton in its nucleus. The researchers expose the clear canister of liquid to pulses of neutrons every five milliseconds, or thousandths of a second, causing tiny cavities to form. At the same time, the liquid is bombarded with a specific frequency of ultrasound, which causes the cavities to form into bubbles that are about 60 nanometers ? or billionths of a meter ? in diameter. The bubbles then expand to a much larger size, about 6,000 microns, or millionths of a meter ? large enough to be seen with the unaided eye. "The process is analogous to stretching a slingshot from Earth to the nearest star, our sun, thereby building up a huge amount of energy when released," Taleyarkhan said. Within nanoseconds these large bubbles contract with tremendous force, returning to roughly their original size, and release flashes of light in a well-known phenomenon known as sonoluminescence. Because the bubbles grow to such a relatively large size before they implode, their contraction causes extreme temperatures and pressures comparable to those found in the interiors of stars. Researches estimate that temperatures inside the imploding bubbles reach 10 million degrees Celsius and pressures comparable to 1,000 million earth atmospheres at sea level. At that point, deuterium atoms fuse together, the same way hydrogen atoms fuse in stars, releasing neutrons and energy in the process. The process also releases a type of radiation called gamma rays and a radioactive material called tritium, all of which have been recorded and measured by the team. In future versions of the experiment, the tritium produced might then be used as a fuel to drive energy-producing reactions in which it fuses with deuterium. Whereas conventional nuclear fission reactors produce waste products that take thousands of years to decay, the waste products from fusion plants are short-lived, decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade or two. The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions generate extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions exist only in small regions of the liquid in the container ? within the collapsing bubbles. One key to the process is the large difference between the original size of the bubbles and their expanded size. Going from 60 nanometers to 6,000 microns is about 100,000 times larger, compared to the bubbles usually formed in sonoluminescence, which grow only about 10 times larger before they implode. "This means you've got about a trillion times more energy potentially available for compression of the bubbles than you do with conventional sonoluminescence," Taleyarkhan said. "When the light flashes are emitted, it's getting extremely hot, and if your liquid has deuterium atoms compared to ordinary hydrogen atoms, the conditions are hot enough to produce nuclear fusion." The ultrasound switches on and off about 20,000 times a second as the liquid is being bombarded by neutrons. The researchers compared their results using normal acetone and deuterated acetone, showing no evidence of fusion in the former. Each five-millisecond pulse of neutrons is followed by a five-millisecond gap, during which time the bubbles implode, release light and emit a surge of about 1 million neutrons per second. In the first experiments, with the less sophisticated equipment, the team was only able to collect data during a small portion of the five-millisecond intervals between neutron pulses. The new equipment enabled the researchers to see what was happening over the entire course of the experiment. The data clearly show surges in neutrons emitted in precise timing with the light flashes, meaning the neutron emissions are produced by the collapsing bubbles responsible for the flashes of light, Taleyarkhan said. "We see neutrons being emitted each time the bubble is imploding with sufficient violence," Taleyarkhan said. Fusion of deuterium atoms emits neutrons that fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 mega-electron volts or below, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The production of tritium also can only be attributed to fusion, and it was never observed in any of the control experiments in which normal acetone was used, he said. Whereas data from the previous experiment had roughly a one in 100 chance of being attributed to some phenomena other than nuclear fusion, the new, more precise results represent more like a one in a trillion chance of being wrong, Taleyarkhan said. "There is only one way to produce tritium ? through nuclear processes," he said. The results also agree with mathematical theory and modeling. Future work will focus on studying ways to scale up the device, which is needed before it could be used in practical applications, and creating portable devices that operate without the need for the expensive equipment now used to bombard the canister with pulses of neutrons. "That takes it to the next level because then it's a standalone generator," Taleyarkhan said. "These will be little nuclear reactors by themselves that are producing neutrons and energy." Such an advance could lead to the development of extremely accurate portable detectors that use neutrons for a wide variety of applications. "If you have a neutron source you can detect virtually anything because neutrons interact with atomic nuclei in such a way that each material shows a clear-cut signature," Taleyarkhan said. The technique also might be used to synthesize materials inexpensively. "For example, carbon is turned into diamond using extreme heat and temperature over many years," Taleyarkhan said. "You wouldn't have to wait years to convert carbon to diamond. In chemistry, most reactions grow exponentially with temperature. Now we might have a way to synthesize certain chemicals that were otherwise difficult to do economically. "Several applications in the field of medicine also appear feasible, such as tumor treatment." Before such a system could be used as a new energy source, however, researchers must reach beyond the "break-even" point, in which more energy is released from the reaction than the amount of energy it takes to drive the reaction. "We are not yet at break-even," Taleyarkhan said. "That would be the ultimate. I don't know if it will ever happen, but we are hopeful that it will and don't see any clear reason why not. In the future we will attempt to scale up this system and see how far we can go." From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 17 20:15:58 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:15:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] signals or noise? References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> <4213F8C1.4060006@cox.net> Message-ID: <000401c5152d$9a1fe3e0$6dc51b97@administxl09yj> From: "Dan Clemmensen" > If you are trying to maximize the > information rate of you signal > in the presence of noise for a particular > transmission power, your signal ends up > looking like noise. Good point. Optimal efficiency, for a trasmission of informations, via e.m. radiation, and with a reasonable and fixed amount of power, gives rise to a radiation with a spectrum like the 'blackbody' radiation spectrum. (Btw, astronomical bodies show such a 'blackbody' radiation spectrum, if I remember well. Not sure though. So, an efficient signal could be indistinguishable from a blackbody radiation). If S is information, and dS/dt the information transmitted, via e.m. carrier, per unit of time, and P is a given power, dS/dt = sqrt (4/3 * pi^2 * 1/h) * sqrt (P) and 1 Watt gives, more or less, 10^17 bits of information transmitted per second (hope so). Another equation links dS/dt to the areas of the transmitter (At) and of receiver (Ar), and to power, and to the distance (d) between receiver and transmitter, dS/dt = (const * Ar * At * 1/d^2)^1/4 * P^3/4 Ar = At = 1 square meter; P = 1 Watt; -> a flux of 10^21 bits (hope so). From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 17 20:21:31 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:21:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] signals or noise? Message-ID: <000b01c5152e$44ef4ea0$6dc51b97@administxl09yj> > Ar = At = 1 square meter; P = 1 Watt; > -> a flux of 10^21 bits (hope so). if d = distance between receiver and transmitter is 1 meter, of course From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Thu Feb 17 21:01:52 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:01:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Sun in the Church Message-ID: <20050217205347.M35449@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Hello... A five minute walk away from the main location in Rome where buses, trains and the metro meet is a Renaissance church named Basilica di Santa Maria degli Angeli, which was made out of the core of the 4 AD Roman Baths of Diocletian with later (very minor) interior modifications by Michelangelo. Because it was a five minute walk for me in one of the busiest parts of Rome, and the structure from the outside looked like 'yet another ancient Roman ruin' (:-) ), I didn't spend the time to go inside until a friend dragged me inside last November. Inside the church, I discovered a solar observatory. During much of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, Roman Catholic churches were the best solar observatories in the world. Besides being a place of worship, churches provided the only buildings tall enough for such kinds of observatories. The Great Meridian of the Basilica di Santa Maria degli Angeli was used for 150 years to determine mid-day for the people of the city of Rome, to obtain a correct calendar for determining the date of Easter, and to have a suitable place for the Jesuit astronomers to make their work. The Great Meridian is kind of sundial. Light comes in through a carefully placed opening ("gnomon") high up on the wall and falls across a brass strip in the floor, the exact North-South meridian of Rome. The Great Meridian in this church is actually a double meridian system, one austral and boreal. The austral gnomon is located 20 meters in height from the floor and tracks the Sun. The boreal gnomon used to be possible to observe the North Star but the hole was eliminated in the mid 1700s. The higher the gnomic hole, the more accurate were the observations. The Great Meridian can also tell you in which zodiacal sign the sun is traveling, and when are the equinoxes. These 'solar observatories' were higher in their precision than any other astronomical tool, until the telescope (invented in about 1600) surpassed the meridian's accuracy for timekeeping in the mid-1800s or so. The article below, gives this nice story about Cassini and the Great Meridian in the San Petronio Church in Bologna. ---------------------------- Among the best known of the observers was Giovanni Cassini, an Italian astronomer who gained fame for discovering moons of Saturn and the gaps in its rings that still bear his name, as does a $3.4 billion spacecraft now speeding toward the planet. Around 1655, Cassini persuaded the builders of the Basilica of San Petronio that they should include a major upgrade of Danti's old meridian line, making it larger and far more accurate, its entry hole for daylight moved up to be some 90 feet high, atop a lofty vault. "Most illustrious nobles of Bologna," Cassini boasted in a flier drawn up for the new observatory, "the kingdom of astronomy is now yours." The exaggeration turned out to have some merit as Cassini used the observatory to investigate the "orbit" of the Sun, quietly suggesting that it actually stood still while the Earth moved. Cassini decided to use his observations to try to confirm the theories of Johannes Kepler, the German astronomer who had proposed in 1609 that the planets moved in elliptical orbits not the circles that Copernicus had envisioned. If true, that meant the Earth over the course of a year would pull slightly closer and farther away from the Sun. At least in theory, Cassini's observatory could test Kepler's idea, since the Sun's projected disk on the cathedral floor would shrink slightly as the distance grew and would expand as the gap lessened. Such an experiment could also address whether there was any merit to the ancient system of Ptolemy, some interpretations of which had the Earth moving around the Sun in an eccentric circular orbit. Ptolemy's Sun at its closest approach moved closer to the Earth than Kepler's Sun did, in theory making the expected solar image larger and the correctness of the rival theories easy to distinguish. For the experiment to succeed, Cassini could tolerate measurement errors no greater than 0.3 inches in the Sun's projected face, which ranged from 5 to 33 inches wide, depending on the time of year. No telescope of the day could achieve that precision. The experiment was run around 1655, and after much trial and error, succeeded. Cassini and his Jesuit allies confirmed Kepler's version of the Copernican theory. Between 1655 and 1736, astronomers used the solar observatory at San Petronio to make 4,500 observations, aiding substantially the tide of scientific advance. References ------------ John L. Heilbron, _The Sun in the Church_ Harvard, 1999. http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/ 101999sci-astronomy-cathedrals.html *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, CNR - ARTOV, Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA ************************************************************************ "We came whirling out of Nothingness scattering stars like dust." --Rumi From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 17 21:46:30 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:46:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] signals or noise? In-Reply-To: <000401c5152d$9a1fe3e0$6dc51b97@administxl09yj> References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> <4213F8C1.4060006@cox.net> <000401c5152d$9a1fe3e0$6dc51b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217154227.01d16ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:15 PM 2/17/2005 +0100, Serafino wrote: >From: "Dan Clemmensen" > > > If you are trying to maximize the > > information rate of you signal > > in the presence of noise for a particular > > transmission power, your signal ends up > > looking like noise. > >Good point. Optimal efficiency, for a >trasmission of informations, via e.m. >radiation, and with a reasonable and fixed amount >of power, gives rise to a radiation with a >spectrum like the 'blackbody' radiation >spectrum. This topic was discussed in detail and depth 9 years ago on this list, and I mined that discussion in my book THE SPIKE (for newbies, `The Spike' is my shorthand term for `Vingean technological singularity'). Here's an extract: ============= Again and again, our faces are pushed into a kind of cosmic paradox, mentioned earlier when we discussed Frank Tipler's vision of humanity's role in the cosmos. It's been dubbed the Fermi Paradox: `Where are they?' asked the great atomic physicist Enrico Fermi, looking at the silent skies. Alien Spiked civilizations might be sensibly close-mouthed, fearful of others of their kind from alien stock, or indeed from their stock mutated by different histories. All flesh is grass, saith the prophet, and all grass is food. If you don't wish to be eaten by someone else's mouth, you're well advised to keep your own buttoned tight. Which doesn't mean that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. They might be there, everywhere. They might be here. We just don't recognize aliens even when we breath them in and out, or let them rush like a sigh through the atoms of which we are composed. Perhaps the nearest to such a explicit perspective is the `dirt' theory suggested ebulliently, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, by Stephen Witham. `Any sufficiently advanced communication,' he proposes, with a nod to Arthur C. Clarke, `is indistinguishable from noise.' If, to the naked eye and naive ear, much of the cosmos seems like sheer random jitter and clang, that might be no more than you'd expect of a high-grade encryption program. Lately there's been a lot of fuss about ciphers and secrecy on the Internet. Using a protocol dubbed PGP, or Pretty Good Privacy, you can run your email or business documents or cash transaction through a preliminary filter and turn it into a two-part jumble of letters and numerals that can't be unscrambled without your private key. Others can, however, use your publicly available PGP key to test whether a message purportedly from you actually does have your seal of approval. The neatest form of such encryption, much prized by extropians and other net libertarians (such as the programmer and lingerie model Romana Machado, otherwise whimsically known as Cypherella) is Steganography, which hides your message in the background of picture files. The profile or spectrum of a well-encrypted message, efficiently compressed, is perfectly `white', indistinguishable from sheer hiss or a random scatter of pixels throughout the image you transmit. Witham had a nice idea. What if the universe we see is background-coded with the Minds of our betters, entities that long ago Transcended or Spiked? This would be a theory of Cryptocosmography, and its Monty Pythonesque maxim might be: every grain of dirt is sacred... and perhaps watching you. Witham put it this way: "We don't know we're not looking at `alien' civilizations. We don't know that the whole universe isn't colonized. Life evolves to become efficiently-encoded information, which looks like sunlight and dirt. I think these are the most natural developments to expect. The default scenario. I would expect a colonized universe to look exactly like a barren one. So what was the Fermi `paradox' again?"158 We should not expect to see a cosmos blazing with crude antimatter battles between berserkers--dedicated life-killers whose five-billion year mission roaming the void it to seek out strange civilizations and exterminate them. No, Witham's fear is `interpenetrating infections, computer viruses in the kernel level of physics,' a kind of `applied theology'. If that's feasible, it might be that we already inhabit a universe entirely colonized at all the interesting levels by post-Spike cultures. That would be the mother of all dirty goo catastrophes. Except that it's not, strictly speaking, a catastrophe. It's just how things are. `At most, our civilization, life as we know it, is the faintest ripple, the merest wisp of a breeze, on what's going on right in our laps. We are an insignificant perturbation not yet worthy of scratching, information-theory-wise.' As you might imagine, this rude suggestion elicited baffled or angry responses from critics. Science already knows too much for this to be true. There's no room in physics for hidden gods lurking in the dirt, or in the atoms, or in the folded-up dimensions. Anyway, computer design is well understood, and data routing and bit-exchanges don't look one whit like noisy dirt. Get out of here!159 Others noted that, well, really we still only know a teeny part of everything that's yet to be known. Besides, the point is not that computations run to resemble noise are efficient, and therefore detectable, but that this masquerade of noisiness might be the only way to stay free of a bug-squasher able to stomp your star. (Not necessarily a big problem for post-Spike technology, but this is a debate for advanced game-theorists.) `I imagine aliens with billion-year patience would have extra slack here,' Witham noted, probably with a grin. And if aliens can be expected to comply with game theory to this counter-intuitive conclusion, maybe tomorrow's post-Singularity Exes and their human pets will do the same. Our immediate and recognizable merely human descendants, if there are any who elect to refuse the uploading option, might end up living in a paradisal world exactly like Pleistocene spring time, eating of all the trees in the garden except the Tree of Knowledge... Re-writing the cosmic laws Polish polymath Stanislaw Lem once made a similar suggestion.160 Then why don't we find all those archaic galactic civilizations? "...because they are already everywhere... A billion-year-old civilization employs [no instrumental technologies]. Its tools are what we call the Laws of Nature. The present Universe no longer is the field of play of forces chemical, pristine, blindly giving birth to and destroying suns and their systems... In the Universe it is no longer possible to distinguish what is `natural' (original) from what is `artificial' (transformed)." The primordial cosmos might have possessed different laws in different regions (a notion common to current claims by cosmologists Fred Hoyle and Andrei Linde). If so, only in certain remote patches might life arise. Attempting to stabilize its environment, each early Spiked culture would jiggle the local laws of physics to its taste, until in their hungry expansion for living space they begin to encroach upon each other's territories. Vast wars would follow: `The fronts of their clashes made gigantic eruptions and fires, for prodigious amounts of energy were released by annihilation and transformations of various kinds... collisions so powerful that their echo reverberates to this day'--in the form of the 2.7 degree Kelvin background radiation, mistakenly assumed to be a residue of the Big Bang. It is a charming cosmogony--an explanation for the birth and shape of the observed universe--and it fits all too neatly with the colossal intergalactic filaments and voids first detected years after Lem published his jape... This universe of Lem's, torn asunder in conflict over its very architecture by titanic Exes and Powers, is saved from utter ruin by the laws of game-theory, which ensure that the former combatants must henceforth remain in strict isolation from each other. The chosen laws of physics that prevail, as a result, are just those restrictive rules we chafe under today: a limited speed of light chosen to slow conflicts, an expanding spacetime (good fences make good neighbors, don't you know). We live upon a scratchy board abandoned by the Gamers. The Universe observed and theorized by science is no more than `a field of multibillion-year labors, stratified one on the other over the eons, tending to goals of which the closest and most minute fragments are fragmentarily perceptible to us.' This delicious logic was not a bid by the distinctly atheistic Stanislaw Lem to reinstate a religious perspective in his then-communist Poland--something that the triumphant revival of Catholicism has done in the meantime, no doubt to Lem's chagrin. Nor am I seriously suggesting that this is how our universe really began. But the scenario does sketch out rather brilliantly just the kind of universe we might expect this one to become, following the human Spike. If so, has it happened elsewhere already? A perspective that professional cosmologists fail to acknowledge (I can see their faces screwing up already) is that the observable universe, in whole or part, might indeed be at least somewhat engineered, but not by any known religion's deity. You can see why they'd have little sympathy for that conjecture. The Copernican Principle, which has served science well for centuries, tells us that the safest default assumption is ordinariness, mediocrity. Things just are how they seem. There's no immense neon advertisement in the heavens informing us of the presence (or departure) of cosmic civilizations. But hang on. Certainly, we now suspect, there's been plenty of time for other life-bearing planets to form, hatch their brood, nurture intelligence, seed it into the cosmos at nearly the speed of light (or much slower, it makes little difference). That's a logical implication of the same Copernican Principle. We humans will probably follow this course sometime between the end of the 21st century and a million years hence. So why should we be unique in this respect alone? If that's correct, our own galaxy with its 400 billion suns and at least 10 billion year history has had many opportunities to bring forth Spikes aplenty in the heavens. True, the earliest stars would have been deficient in heavy elements, but there have been stars like the Sun for many hundreds of millions if not billions of years longer than our own 5 billion year-old star. What would galactic colonizers look like when they're at home? Let us look carefully not for lurid displays (which are boastful, immature, tacky and probably dangerous) but for clever husbanding of resources by one or more sublimely competent technological cultures scattering their mind children across the sky. [go to the book for more] 8.58. Posted to the extropian e-list 15 October 1996, and cited with Mr Witham's permission. 9.59. See, for example, Robin Hanson's reply on the extropian e-list, 15 October 1996. 0.60. `The New Cosmogony', in his delightful collection of reviews of non-existent books, A Perfect Vacuum, Mandarin, 1991 (originally in English in 1979, sublimely translated by Michael Kandel), pp. 197-229. I am grateful to Mitch Porter and John Redford for reminding me of this wonderful, funny piece. From igoddard at umd.edu Fri Feb 18 01:53:19 2005 From: igoddard at umd.edu (Ian Goddard) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:53:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Where have you been? Message-ID: <600e11b1.d0511a2a.81bb000@po0.mail.umd.edu> "spike" wrote: >Ian Goddard! Man where have you been pal? We missed >you several years ago, we were worried about >you. {8-] I used to read your blog, but lost track >of it somehow. Welcome back, long time. spike Thanks for the kind greeting spike! Yeah, I've been off list for several years, apart from popping in once in '01 to post a link to my caloric-restriction report. The list can get so voluminous it's hard to handle. Last night it occurred to me to check it out and I saw the thread on SA and wanted to add a few comments. Despite their critical nature I'm drawn to the universe-as-computer-generated- program hypothesis for several reasons, but I'm kicking the tires and looking for a failure mode before I place a bet. A few years ago I went back to school and that's what I've been busy doing for the most part, studying philosophy (along with sundry periphery requirements). This semester I switched my major to computer science, which surprisingly I could still do at this point without setting myself back too much. I'd always get this uneasy unreal feeling about majoring in philosophy, especially at the beginning of a semester... yes, I love the topic, and yes, I want to learn more and more about it, but is it practical? Is anyone going to pay me to know these things? Maybe yes, maybe no... Maybe I need to find the path to channel what I like the most about phil into some area of applied science wherein I can learn tools to pursue my philosophical curiosities AND at the same time work toward a degree with more market value. http://IanGoddard.net/journal.htm What is a moment in time? Gone. From dgc at cox.net Fri Feb 18 02:03:56 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:03:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <4213FF13.1010807@pobox.com> References: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> <4213F1B5.2050709@cox.net> <4213FF13.1010807@pobox.com> Message-ID: <42154D0C.6010709@cox.net> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Dan Clemmensen wrote: > >> >> However, we now go back to your premises A and B. Unfortunately, they >> are falsifiable only in the containing "real" universe, not in the >> sim, so we are still in trouble. You have committed a level shift >> from the rule set of the sim to the rule set of "reality." This in >> turn requires yet another unfalsifiable assumption: that statements >> of probability derived from observations in the sim somehow apply to >> the containing world. > > > The Simulation Argument says that, under certain premises, the > conclusion that this world is probably real is *inconsistent* because > this world taken at face value would contain more simulations of > ancestors than ancestors. Whether the Red Pill Universe matches our > own is not specified by the SA; what SA just says is that if you > accept the premises as probably-true-at-face-value given the face > value of our universe, you are forced to the conclusion that something > other than face value applies - that we are a computer simulation > within an enclosing world that may or may not resemble our own; or > that our world is base-level and some other, unknown and unpostulated > force forbids all simulations or sharply reduces their frequency. In essence, you argue that my existing "null hypothesis" is invalid. This is a strong argument. If you recall my initial post, I asserted that I reject a new hypothesis if the resulting logical system (existing plus new hypothesis) is inconsistent, as a first decision criterion, prior to applying several others, the last of which were falsifiability and Occam's razor. Your point is valid: if my initial logical system is inconsistent, then I have nothing. I have an implicit premise embedded in my initial system: we are not in a sim. You assert that this premise may be false. and that "we are in a sim" is actually a simplification of my initial system. I have a serious objection to this: by this logic, any logical system has an infinite number of implicit negative assumptions. Furthermore, I see no particular reason to choose the Simulation Argument over the God argument: each of them "fixes" the same problem with the underlying logical model. New topic: It appears to me that if we accept the simulation argument, we have no way of assess the breadth of the sim. I have no reason to believe that I am an autonomous intelligent entity. If I assert (cogito, ergo sum) that I am an autonomous intelligent entity within a sim, I have no reason to believe that I am not the only such entity within the sim. With all of the above, I will continue to struggle toward the Singularity, just as if my universe were real. When I reach the Singularity, I will either transcend in my universe, or I will reach the last level of the sim and finally see the "game over" screen, and then I will know. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 02:10:22 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:10:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021705535f040d7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218021022.10674.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > Indeed, I'll go further than that. > > Consider Newton and Lagrange's formulations of classical mechanics, > or the wave and matrix formulations of quantum mechanics. In each > case we > have two sets of equations which give the same results - we therefore > regard the distinction between them as not merely unfalsifiable but > meaningless; we say that in each case, the two theories are in fact > the _same_ theory. Preference for one over the other is therefore > neither true nor false; it's just a matter of what you happen to find > more convenient to work with. > > Now the hypothesis "we are living in a simulation" (if the simulation > is assumed to be fully accurate) gives the same results as "we are > not living in a simulation". No, it doesn't. One distinction would be that if you were living in a simulation, then it would be possible to simulate whole universes. If you were not living in a simulation, given the odds otherwise, then it is likely that it is not possible to simulate whole universes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From dgc at cox.net Fri Feb 18 02:44:54 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:44:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021705535f040d7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d71341e05021705535f040d7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421556A6.2000100@cox.net> Russell Wallace wrote: >On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:39:05 -0500, igoddard at umd.edu wrote: > > >>The hypothesis that the universe could be a computer program >>is attractive, but Dan may be right that it's unfalsifiable >>(and thus pseudoscientific). >> >> > >Indeed, I'll go further than that. > >Consider Newton and Lagrange's formulations of classical mechanics, or >the wave and matrix formulations of quantum mechanics. In each case we >have two sets of equations which give the same results - we therefore >regard the distinction between them as not merely unfalsifiable but >meaningless; we say that in each case, the two theories are in fact >the _same_ theory. Preference for one over the other is therefore >neither true nor false; it's just a matter of what you happen to find >more convenient to work with. > >Now the hypothesis "we are living in a simulation" (if the simulation >is assumed to be fully accurate) gives the same results as "we are not >living in a simulation". Therefore it can be argued that they are the >_same_ hypothesis. So we have a situation where P and not-P are the >same statement; therefore, P is a null statement; so the simulation >hypothesis actually _has no truth value_. > > > Two points: 1) Undecidable versus unfalsifiable: "Undecidable" is a technical term in the predicate calculus. This is usually what "has no truth value" refers to. "Unfalsifiable" is a technical term in philosophy. It is related to "undecidable," but philosophy has not yet been reduced to the predicate calculus. 2) A formal basis for Occam's Razor: Your post has inspired me to create (discover? re-invent?) a formal basis for Occam's razor. (Surely someone has done this in the past?) I have always thought that Occam's razor was grounded primarily in aesthetics: A system with fewer postulates is simply more elegant and is somehow "prettier." You can argue that a logical system X, and a logical system X+P that make exactly the same predictions are in fact the SAME logical system. if X->P, then this is true. If X!->P, (that is, P cannot be inferred from X) then Occam's razor says to pick X rather than X+P. But why? My thought is to go to information theory: the system X can be expressed in fewer bits than can (X+P). Furthermore, there are an infinite number of systems with additional hypotheses but with the same predictive power X+P1, X+P2, ..., so X is unique. Thus, X is not just an aesthetic choice, it's a unique choice. Note that a system X+P where X!->P is in fact clearly different from X in one regard: in the system (X+P), P is true. in the system X, P is undecidable. if X->P, then P is a superfluous postulate and is clearly unneeded. If X->!P, then (X+P) is inconsistent and therefore worthless. But there are an infinite number of undecidable propositions (P, P1, P2...) in X. Unless one of them has predicts something useful other than itself, Why add it? Note: I did a cursory search while writing this, and found: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/topics/GeneralLogic.html Wow! From dgc at cox.net Fri Feb 18 02:54:22 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:54:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Where have you been? In-Reply-To: <600e11b1.d0511a2a.81bb000@po0.mail.umd.edu> References: <600e11b1.d0511a2a.81bb000@po0.mail.umd.edu> Message-ID: <421558DE.6000302@cox.net> Ian Goddard wrote: >"spike" wrote: > > > >>Ian Goddard! Man where have you been pal? We missed >>you several years ago, we were worried about >>you. {8-] I used to read your blog, but lost track >>of it somehow. Welcome back, long time. spike >> >> > > > Thanks for the kind greeting spike! Yeah, I've been off >list for several years, apart from popping in once in '01 to >post a link to my caloric-restriction report. The list can >get so voluminous it's hard to handle. Last night it >occurred to me to check it out and I saw the thread on SA >and wanted to add a few comments. Despite their critical >nature I'm drawn to the universe-as-computer-generated- >program hypothesis for several reasons, but I'm kicking the >tires and looking for a failure mode before I place a bet. > > A few years ago I went back to school and that's what I've >been busy doing for the most part, studying philosophy >(along with sundry periphery requirements). This semester I >switched my major to computer science, which surprisingly I >could still do at this point without setting myself back too >much. I'd always get this uneasy unreal feeling about >majoring in philosophy, especially at the beginning of a >semester... yes, I love the topic, and yes, I want to learn >more and more about it, but is it practical? Is anyone going >to pay me to know these things? Maybe yes, maybe no... Maybe >I need to find the path to channel what I like the most >about phil into some area of applied science wherein I can >learn tools to pursue my philosophical curiosities AND at >the same time work toward a degree with more market value. > > > > I think I just made a fool of myself. Hi Ian! Glad to hear from you! I just posted a response to your comment in which I included a lot of philosophical claptrap, just as if I knew what I was talking about, BEFORE reading your post quoted above. Please feel free to make actual informed comments on my previous post. My last formal exposure to philosophy was when I audited a course at the University of Tennessee in 1969. From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 02:58:58 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:58:58 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050218021022.10674.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e05021705535f040d7e@mail.gmail.com> <20050218021022.10674.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e050217185874430179@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:10:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > No, it doesn't. One distinction would be that if you were living in a > simulation, then it would be possible to simulate whole universes. If > you were not living in a simulation, given the odds otherwise, then it > is likely that it is not possible to simulate whole universes. What makes you think that? - Russell From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 03:44:42 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:44:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021709451e92010a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502180347.j1I3ksh24505@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Russell Wallace > Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0800, spike wrote: > > > > Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. > > Well then there's nothing to be puzzled about - we don't have any > reason at all to suppose that the fraction of stars that produce > technological civilizations is greater than 1e-12. > > - Russell Hmmm, that seems a little self assured, Russell. I would estimate the fraction several orders of magnitude higher than 1e-12. I have another notion that may explain it, which builds on an argument I presented here a couple years ago. If a singularity and nanotech, then a post singularity tech society would surely take all available metals in that star system and convert it to computronium. The value of communications from a distant star is inversely proportional to its distance, so it might not be worth the metal to build signal receivers for a post-singularity MBrain. It almost certainly would not be worth the effort for even a pre-singularity civ to send out signals, for it is unclear how it would benefit directly. Sagan explained the silence by postulating the dreadful possibility that the typical time between signal-capable civilization and total self-annihilation is tragically short. I countersuggest that the time between signal- capable civilization and transformation to computronium is mercifully short. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 04:39:31 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:39:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Where have you been? In-Reply-To: <600e11b1.d0511a2a.81bb000@po0.mail.umd.edu> Message-ID: <200502180442.j1I4fih30954@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Ian Goddard > > "spike" wrote: > > >Ian Goddard! ...I used to read your blog... spike > > > Thanks for the kind greeting spike! Yeah, I've been off > list for several years, apart from popping in once in '01 to > post a link to my caloric-restriction report... Been there, read that, liked it. Your title "Eat Less- Live More" reminds me of high school. We were weighing in for boxing (I was never a serious boxer, but I had fun with it). 125 pounds is the dividing line between the featherweights and the lightweights. I could knock the bony little blocks off of all the feathers. But the lightweights, those beefy 130 pound brutes, well, they would have killed me for sure. So I made certain I stayed in the featherweights, the division I would still be in today, 28 years later. I lived, proving your point: eat less, live more. {8-] Of course some foodies might argue: box less, live more. {8^D They are no fun. > The list can get so voluminous it's hard to handle... But not so voluminous as it was in 01. > A few years ago I went back to school and that's what I've > been busy doing for the most part, studying philosophy... > ... yes, I love the topic, and yes, I want to learn > more and more about it, but is it practical?... It is a beef I have had with the way career counseling was done years ago and is still done: they don't seem to differentiate between the practical and the blue-sky. Sure a few will make it to way cool careers such as astronomy: Amara Graps did it. But they don't really explain to the students that only a few make the high- profile careers. Most of us suffer far more mundane 9-to-5s. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 04:45:24 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:45:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] walk this way In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217154227.01d16ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502180447.j1I4lah31837@tick.javien.com> This is so wicked cool: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/17/robot.toddlers.ap/index.html They are actually reporting two breakthroughs here, which causes me to suspect either the press has goofed the story or that something else is wrong with it. They are reporting that they have discovered a far more efficient way for robots to walk using springs (which is believable and exciting) and that the device itself learns (which is exciting as hell, but dubious). spike Robot 'learns' to walk like a toddler Thursday, February 17, 2005 Posted: 5:12 PM EST (2212 GMT) The walking robot Cornell moves like a human, falling and catching itself as it moves forward. WASHINGTON (AP) -- The difference between man and machine is shrinking. Scientists have developed a robot that "learns" to walk like a toddler, improving its step and balance with every stride. The walking robot looks more like a moving Erector set than a human being, but the machine has the unmistakable gait of a person strolling along. The robot uses its curved feet and motorized ankles to spring its legs forward, its arms swinging at every step to help with balance. Researchers on Thursday showed off the learning, walking robot, along with two less-advanced models, at the national meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. A report on the research appears this week in the journal Science. The machines use what the researchers called a "passive-dynamic design" that closely mimics the way humans walk. Earlier robots required powerful machines to stroll, with each leg, knee and ankle requiring motorized assistance. The effort requires a lot of energy. The passive dynamic design uses gravity, along with muscle-like springs and motors. The energy required is just a fraction of that needed by other walking robots, said Andy Ruina, a Cornell University researcher. Ruina said the walking robots move like humans, falling and catching themselves as they move forward. This essentially is the same movement people use, a motion toddlers must master to walk. "We let the machines take care of a lot of the motion," he said. In contrast, most walking robots, such as Asimo, developed by the Honda Motor Co., require a motor to power every motion. A robot designed by Russ Tedrake of Massachusetts Institute of Technology is equipped with sensors that help the machine learn to walk in a way similar to humans' gait. Appropriately, the machine is called "Toddler." The robot's sensors measure the machine's motion, tilt and rate of movement and then direct small motors to adjust and compensate for changes. "It can learn to walk in 20 minutes," Tedrake said. "Once it learns to walk, then it adapts its gait to new terrain." He said the sensors take measurements at the rate of 200 times a second and constantly send new instructions to the motors that control the tilt and motion. The sensors also direct actuators that control the tension on springs in the robot ankles. This helps the machine push forward with each stride. "Every time it takes a step, it changes the parameters a little bit, based on its experience," Tedrake said. "It will walk on any surface and adjust the way it walks." In effect, the robot changes its stride just as humans do when moving from sand to grass to pavement. He said the machine even has learned to walk on a treadmill, making adjustments as the surface tilts or speeds up. The robot can start on its own and even walk backward. The big advantage of the passive-dynamic robots is that they require about the same energy that humans use to walk. This is only one-tenth of the energy needed to make Asimo go, Ruina said. The less energy used, the longer that the robots can operate without needing new batteries. "For a robot to ever be practical, it will have to be able to run for a long time," Ruina said. From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 04:59:30 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:59:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050213155824.028e57f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217205732.028fdc38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Sorry there (not). I am talking about physical non simulated meat reality. Assuming only god gets to be god is your error..... >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > > > If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! The > > whole > > POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better form of > > experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which evolved > > along with the meat. > >You are making the mistake of assuming that hazard to simulated meat is >the same as hazard to one's real meat. Only god gets to use god-mode in >his simulation. >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 05:01:37 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:01:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] coral reefer madness In-Reply-To: <200502160437.j1G4bVh02374@tick.javien.com> References: <20050216034257.33321.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200502160437.j1G4bVh02374@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217210050.028aa590@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Been done for years, dumping old cars into shallow water works just fine. >My notion then is that if we created monsterously >large artificial reefs, then the smaller fish could >use them as fishy convention centers, breeding grounds, >that sort of thing. - spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 05:06:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:06:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4212C497.8060803@pobox.com> <20050216075941.12787.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217210355.029045b8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Ok, good Godel, folks! Statements can be made in a formal system equivalent to integers which are true but not provable by said system. ahem. >--- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Infect people with a non-personally-believed meme! What a > > wonderfully euphemistic way of saying, "lie". > >Oh please Eli, you are not THAT pollyannish. Besides, how do YOU know >its a lie if you can't prove it to be false? ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 05:16:18 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:16:18 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Strange Phenomenon - Cloud Rings In-Reply-To: <010e01c5149d$d3a98390$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <010e01c5149d$d3a98390$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217211404.028df690@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> If you drop a bit of ink into water, you get small rings which look a lot like some of the pictures. As sun heats ground, 'bubbles' of air rise. If one of these was surrounded by moist air, result might be a ring per some of the photos. >I saw something extremely odd, but exciting today that I can't explain. It >was a pair of cloud rings in the sky. >Kevin Freels ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 05:09:30 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:09:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216195327.84350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217210648.028df7d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I don't get this.... Cryonics successful is big win, failure just sameo sameo. If this is a Simulation, where is the darn Control Panel? With no access to controls, what is point of arguing about it anyway, beyond its entertainment value. Kindly explain your point. >What is really surprising to me are the number of people here who are >ardent cryonicists, betting their fortunes and lives on what can very >easily be regarded as a Pascals-wager-type risk, but won't make the >same bet on the SA. > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 18 05:25:03 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:25:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050217025618fdafa7@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050217025618fdafa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217212431.028ee5a0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I won, using "spittle bug" >Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI (they claim) >http://www.20q.net/ ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 06:48:16 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:48:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Scientists Create 'Obedient Virus' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c5205021722482862a223@mail.gmail.com> An international team of Mayo Clinic-led researchers is first to devise a system that consistently converts the measles virus into a therapeutic killer that hunts down and destroys cancer cells -- and cancer cells only. Their research findings appear as an advanced electronic article of Nature Biotechnology. The researchers harnessed the viral trait for attacking and commandeering cells, and then redirected the virus to attack diseased, rather than healthy cells. The work was done on laboratory animals implanted with two kinds of human cancer cells -- ovarian cancer and lymphoma -- and is probably still years away from use as a human therapy. But the concept has at last been proved in mice with human cancer tumors -- and that's an essential step toward using this approach to expand and improve human treatments for a variety of cancers. "When I saw the data, I was completely stunned. It's the sort of thing that, having worked on targeting viruses for about 15 years, I just couldn't believe that we'd finally got what we'd been hunting all that time," says Stephen Russell, M.D., Ph.D., lead researcher and director of Mayo Clinic's Molecular Medicine Program. http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/6973 From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 07:24:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:24:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] mercy retriever In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217212431.028ee5a0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502180726.j1I7Qch18280@tick.javien.com> If you didn't catch ER this evening, look for this week's episode in the reruns this summer. The medics received a patient who presented with stroke symptoms, unresponsive, half of the face and body apparently paralyzed. Female, mid thirties, mother of three. The docs determined that she had thrown a clot which went to the brain. It had been over three hours since the event, so it was too risky to break up the clot, so they used a new device (developed in the Taxifornia Bay Area) called the mercy retriever. They put a small tube thru the groin, up the artery to the brain. A small coil spring like a corkscrew is then rotated 4 turns, which augers into the clot. The tube, wire and clot is then withdrawn, removing the clot. If all goes well, if the clot doesn't break up, the patient recovers fully. It does have its risks. After the show, the local news agency presented the case (real life) of a local teenage girl who suffered a clot to the brain. They showed her x-rays, which (I think) were the ones they used on the ER show. She came out of it with no permanent damage. Keeewwwwwwaalllllllll. {8-] Good for her. And us. Parting shot on the news program: just today, they brought another stroke victim into the Stanford ER, used the mercy retriever, patient is expected to make a full recovery. {8-] spike From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:00:45 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:00:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> References: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> <200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <948b11e0502180100504fac69@mail.gmail.com> I think it very likely that most technological species do not survive the stage in their history that we are now entering. Consider the odds that any species that evolution had programmed haphazardly to reach this level of intelligence would also have naturally evolved or acquired the means to debug/overcome those parts of its programming that make it unfit to wield such technological power without the likelihood of self-destruction rapidly converging on certainy. We are far too driven by old programs and not necessarily smart enough to debug ourselves and our institutions quickly enough. I am not at all hopeful as to our prospects. - samantha On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0800, spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Russell Wallace > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike wrote: > > > > > > So where are the others? > > > > I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; what's > > to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical need for the > > existence of aliens... > > Want or not want is orthogonal to my puzzlement about > why they are not there. Even still, I disagree with > the notion that we have no practical need for the > existence of aliens, but that's a whole nuther topic. > > > However, one doesn't particularly need to assume their nonexistence > > either; one can simply postulate that the speed of light is as > > absolute a barrier as it appears to be... > > I do assume that the speed of light is absolute, and that > we have no magic physics yet to be discovered. > > > Then the nearest > > extraterrestrial civilization could be a billion years older than we > > are and be perfectly consistent with observation, provided they're at > > least a billion light years away so signals or probes from them > > haven't had time to reach us yet. Would you be happier with this > > explanation? > > > > - Russell > > Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. I'm > not ready to accept the notion that technological > civilizations are short-lived. The Drake equation, > as I understand it, suggests tech-capable civs must > be short lived. Otherwise we are hard up for an > explanation for why we aren't hearing or seeing > them. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:06:33 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:06:33 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <4215a84c.60c14dc4.1982.ffff835dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> References: <8d71341e05021709451e92010a@mail.gmail.com> <4215a84c.60c14dc4.1982.ffff835dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021801063d68e7d2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:44:42 -0800, spike wrote: > > > Well then there's nothing to be puzzled about - we don't have any > > reason at all to suppose that the fraction of stars that produce > > technological civilizations is greater than 1e-12. > > Hmmm, that seems a little self assured, Russell. "We don't have any reason at all to suppose..." Pointing out the absence of evidence isn't a comment about my level of assurance (which to be sure is often quite high, but not in this case). If there _was_ evidence and I commanded you ex cathedra to disbelieve it, that would be self-assurance ;) > I > would estimate the fraction several orders of magnitude > higher than 1e-12. Yes, but you have zero evidence for that estimate. There's no reason at all to believe it to be e.g. 1e-6 rather than 1e-60, other than that you (in general, not just you personally) _want_ it to be the higher number. Which goes back to my puzzlement - why do so many people want there to be aliens in our galaxy? - Russell From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:16:49 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:16:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] walk this way In-Reply-To: <200502180447.j1I4lah31837@tick.javien.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217154227.01d16ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <200502180447.j1I4lah31837@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <948b11e05021801161b3d4b30@mail.gmail.com> It not only learns to walk but does so in twenty minutes? If so this is astounding indeed. i just looked it up in Science. This is for real. - samantha On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:45:24 -0800, spike wrote: > This is so wicked cool: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/17/robot.toddlers.ap/index.html > > They are actually reporting two breakthroughs here, which > causes me to suspect either the press has goofed the story > or that something else is wrong with it. They are reporting > that they have discovered a far more efficient way for > robots to walk using springs (which is believable and > exciting) and that the device itself learns (which is > exciting as hell, but dubious). > > spike > > Robot 'learns' to walk like a toddler > Thursday, February 17, 2005 Posted: 5:12 PM EST (2212 GMT) > > The walking robot Cornell moves like a human, falling and catching itself as > it moves forward. > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- The difference between man and machine is shrinking. > Scientists have developed a robot that "learns" to walk like a toddler, > improving its step and balance with every stride. > > The walking robot looks more like a moving Erector set than a human being, > but the machine has the unmistakable gait of a person strolling along. The > robot uses its curved feet and motorized ankles to spring its legs forward, > its arms swinging at every step to help with balance. > > Researchers on Thursday showed off the learning, walking robot, along with > two less-advanced models, at the national meeting of the American > Association for the Advancement of Science. A report on the research appears > this week in the journal Science. > > The machines use what the researchers called a "passive-dynamic design" that > closely mimics the way humans walk. Earlier robots required powerful > machines to stroll, with each leg, knee and ankle requiring motorized > assistance. The effort requires a lot of energy. > > The passive dynamic design uses gravity, along with muscle-like springs and > motors. The energy required is just a fraction of that needed by other > walking robots, said Andy Ruina, a Cornell University researcher. > > Ruina said the walking robots move like humans, falling and catching > themselves as they move forward. This essentially is the same movement > people use, a motion toddlers must master to walk. > > "We let the machines take care of a lot of the motion," he said. In > contrast, most walking robots, such as Asimo, developed by the Honda Motor > Co., require a motor to power every motion. > > A robot designed by Russ Tedrake of Massachusetts Institute of Technology is > equipped with sensors that help the machine learn to walk in a way similar > to humans' gait. Appropriately, the machine is called "Toddler." > > The robot's sensors measure the machine's motion, tilt and rate of movement > and then direct small motors to adjust and compensate for changes. > > "It can learn to walk in 20 minutes," Tedrake said. "Once it learns to walk, > then it adapts its gait to new terrain." > > He said the sensors take measurements at the rate of 200 times a second and > constantly send new instructions to the motors that control the tilt and > motion. The sensors also direct actuators that control the tension on > springs in the robot ankles. This helps the machine push forward with each > stride. > > "Every time it takes a step, it changes the parameters a little bit, based > on its experience," Tedrake said. "It will walk on any surface and adjust > the way it walks." > > In effect, the robot changes its stride just as humans do when moving from > sand to grass to pavement. > > He said the machine even has learned to walk on a treadmill, making > adjustments as the surface tilts or speeds up. The robot can start on its > own and even walk backward. > > The big advantage of the passive-dynamic robots is that they require about > the same energy that humans use to walk. This is only one-tenth of the > energy needed to make Asimo go, Ruina said. > > The less energy used, the longer that the robots can operate without needing > new batteries. > > "For a robot to ever be practical, it will have to be able to run for a long > time," Ruina said. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 09:56:44 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:56:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217212431.028ee5a0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218095644.41770.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > I won, using "spittle bug" > >Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI > (they claim) > >http://www.20q.net/ I was very impressed by it. It guessed itself "20Q.net" in 19 questions. Could this be a rudimentary form of self-awareness? This definately passes a constrained form of the Turing test limited to the playing of twenty questions. Wow. ===== The Avantguardian "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." -Bill Watterson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 10:04:06 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:04:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <948b11e0502180100504fac69@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> <200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> <948b11e0502180100504fac69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050218020447290b69@mail.gmail.com> This is a possibility of course, but you cannot infer it from the cosmic silence. Advanced civilization could communicate with cosmic networks we don't yet know how to listen to. Like we listen for drums and they use radio waves. How can you rule out that a nanomachines based alien civilization is already here on Earth and has been here for centuries? Concerning the main thrust of your argument I agree that we are racing against time and we may win or lose. The only sensible thing to do is do our best to ensure that we are still here to see the result. G. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:00:45 -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > I think it very likely that most technological species do not survive > the stage in their history that we are now entering. Consider the > odds that any species that evolution had programmed haphazardly to > reach this level of intelligence would also have naturally evolved or > acquired the means to debug/overcome those parts of its programming > that make it unfit to wield such technological power without the > likelihood of self-destruction rapidly converging on certainy. We are > far too driven by old programs and not necessarily smart enough to > debug ourselves and our institutions quickly enough. I am not at > all hopeful as to our prospects. > > - samantha From es at popido.com Fri Feb 18 11:06:45 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:06:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet Message-ID: <200502181106.j1IB6jp0023595@mail-core.space2u.com> On 2005-02-18 The Avantguardian wrote: >--- Hara Ra wrote: >> I won, using "spittle bug" >> >Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI >> (they claim) >> >http://www.20q.net/ > >I was very impressed by it. It guessed itself >"20Q.net" in 19 questions. Could this be a rudimentary >form of self-awareness? This definately passes a >constrained form of the Turing test limited to the >playing of twenty questions. Wow. Yes, very impressive. I managed to beat it by thinking of my Saab 93 Aero. It guessed "sports car" but I wanted the brand. A human would probably ask "what country was it made in?" or something like that, and link the country to the brand. But maybe I was cheating a bit. Don't know if specific brands of objects are allowed in the game. :o) Anyway, a human would probably get it. Erik From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:38:28 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:38:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200502181106.j1IB6jp0023595@mail-core.space2u.com> References: <200502181106.j1IB6jp0023595@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f05021803387f245f05@mail.gmail.com> Erik: "Don't know if specific brands of objects are allowed in the game." 20Q.net: "The object you think of should be something that most people would know about, but, never a specific person, place or thing." "Saab 93 Aero" is not something most people know about. Erik: "But maybe I was cheating a bit." Yep. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:06:45 +0100, Erik Starck wrote: > > On 2005-02-18 The Avantguardian wrote: > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > >> I won, using "spittle bug" > >> >Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI > >> (they claim) > >> >http://www.20q.net/ > > > >I was very impressed by it. It guessed itself > >"20Q.net" in 19 questions. Could this be a rudimentary > >form of self-awareness? This definately passes a > >constrained form of the Turing test limited to the > >playing of twenty questions. Wow. > > Yes, very impressive. > I managed to beat it by thinking of my Saab 93 Aero. It guessed "sports car" but I wanted the brand. A human would probably ask "what country was it made in?" or something like that, and link the country to the brand. > But maybe I was cheating a bit. Don't know if specific brands of objects are allowed in the game. :o) > Anyway, a human would probably get it. > > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 11:58:32 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:58:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <8d71341e050217185874430179@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218115832.23974.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:10:22 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > > > No, it doesn't. One distinction would be that if you were living in > a > > simulation, then it would be possible to simulate whole universes. > If > > you were not living in a simulation, given the odds otherwise, then > it > > is likely that it is not possible to simulate whole universes. > > What makes you think that? > That is an incontrovertible result of the same logic in the SA: because, if it is possible to simulate whole universes, and at least one civilization in one natural universe simulates universes capable of developing their own posthuman civilizations, then odds are overwhelming that we live in a simulation. If we don't in fact live in a simulation, we are either the one in a bazillion exception to the 'living in a simulation' odds, or else we live in a universe where it is impossible to simulate whole universes. All else being equal, we either live in a universe simulation, or it is not possible to simulate whole universes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 12:04:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:04:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217205732.028fdc38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218120431.23587.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > Sorry there (not). I am talking about physical non simulated meat > reality. > Assuming only god gets to be god is your error..... > > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > > > > > If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! The > > > whole > > > POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better form of > > > experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which evolved > > > along with the meat. > > > >You are making the mistake of assuming that hazard to simulated meat > >is the same as hazard to one's real meat. Only god gets to use > >god-mode inhis simulation. Then perhaps you ought to detail what you mean by 'unavoidable hazards'... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 12:11:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:11:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217210648.028df7d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218121152.83817.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > I don't get this.... Cryonics successful is big win, failure just > sameo sameo. If this is a Simulation, where is the darn Control > Panel? With no access to controls, what is point of arguing about it > anyway, beyond its entertainment value. Kindly explain your point. As I said in another post, the point is that if we are living in a simulation, then it is possible to simulate whole universes. If we are not living in a simulation, then odds are it is impossible to simulate whole universes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 12:16:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:16:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021801063d68e7d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218121620.4329.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > > Yes, but you have zero evidence for that estimate. There's no reason > at all to believe it to be e.g. 1e-6 rather than 1e-60, other than > that you (in general, not just you personally) _want_ it to be the > higher number. Which goes back to my puzzlement - why do so many > people want there to be aliens in our galaxy? Why do you want there to not be aliens? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 12:17:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:17:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <20050218095644.41770.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218121748.91673.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > --- Hara Ra wrote: > > > I won, using "spittle bug" > > >Very interesting 20 questions game based on AI > > (they claim) > > >http://www.20q.net/ > > I was very impressed by it. It guessed itself > "20Q.net" in 19 questions. Could this be a rudimentary > form of self-awareness? This definately passes a > constrained form of the Turing test limited to the > playing of twenty questions. Wow. Does it make up questions as it goes along, or are the questions all prewritten in a lookup table? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From emerson at singinst.org Fri Feb 18 15:17:00 2005 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:17:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Seeking SIAI Volunteer Coordinator Message-ID: <200502181517.j1IFHKh10269@tick.javien.com> I'm looking for someone to take on the volunteer role of SIAI Volunteer Coordinator. After being our VC for two years, Chris Rovner has taken the position of Webmaster. The new Volunteer Coordinator would be collaborating closely with Chris and I. If interested, please reach me at emerson at singinst.org. A more detailed description of the position would then be sent. Since it's volunteer position, only part-time hrs would be asked. Thanks, ~~~ Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute P.O. Box 50182 Palo Alto, CA 94303 Phone: 650.353.6063 emerson at singinst.org http://www.singinst.org/ From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 16:03:22 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:03:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] walk this way In-Reply-To: <948b11e05021801161b3d4b30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502181606.j1IG5ih15397@tick.javien.com> If I can teach it to walk to my desk and learn my job in twenty minutes, then I will have it made. {8^D spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] walk this way > > It not only learns to walk but does so in twenty minutes? If so this > is astounding indeed. i just looked it up in Science. This is for > real. > > - samantha > > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:45:24 -0800, spike wrote: > > This is so wicked cool: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/17/robot.toddlers.ap/index.html > > > > They are actually reporting two breakthroughs here... From kevin at kevinfreels.com Fri Feb 18 16:33:29 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:29 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence References: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com><200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> <948b11e0502180100504fac69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d101c515d7$94908ba0$0100a8c0@kevin> I sorely disagree with you on this one. I think that our minds are the means to overcome the bad parts of our programming. That is why we are the only surviving member of the hominid family. H. neanderthalensis may have been pretty smart, but they also may have hunted themselves out of food, burned themselves out of land, or taken on some other similar self-destructive behavior. As of now, there are few explanations for the extinction of H.n since they seem to have lived peacefully alongside us. It is possible that they simply destroyed themselves. As humans, we have evolved the ability to think several steps ahead. It is one thing we are very good at that separates us from other animals and we recognize this in people such as Kasparov. We may be reaching that point where the changes will occur faster than we can think ahead, but we already know the solution to that.....build a machine to do the thinking ahead for us. :-) It is interesting to note that your fear is common. It is natural for human beings to be afraid that we are going to destroy ourselves. We have been obsessed with doomsday predictions since before we were able to write them down. So many books and movies have been written on the topic that I couldn;t even begin to name them all. It is a very popular topic in both fiction and non-fiction. Could it be that this fear you have is the very evolutionary device employed to keep us from destroying ourselves? I like to think of human beings as playing the same role that single-celled organisms played in the early stages of life on this planet. We are set to enter a new and glorious age with infinite diversity. Yes, the human species itself may not survive any more than the original single-celled organisms have survuved to this day. But we will be the common ancestor of things as different from us as we are from cyanobacteria. Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence > I think it very likely that most technological species do not survive > the stage in their history that we are now entering. Consider the > odds that any species that evolution had programmed haphazardly to > reach this level of intelligence would also have naturally evolved or > acquired the means to debug/overcome those parts of its programming > that make it unfit to wield such technological power without the > likelihood of self-destruction rapidly converging on certainy. We are > far too driven by old programs and not necessarily smart enough to > debug ourselves and our institutions quickly enough. I am not at > all hopeful as to our prospects. > > - samantha > > > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0800, spike wrote: > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Russell Wallace > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:43:29 -0800, spike wrote: > > > > > > > > So where are the others? > > > > > > I've never understood why people are so unhappy with this idea; what's > > > to be unhappy about? It's not as if we have any practical need for the > > > existence of aliens... > > > > Want or not want is orthogonal to my puzzlement about > > why they are not there. Even still, I disagree with > > the notion that we have no practical need for the > > existence of aliens, but that's a whole nuther topic. > > > > > However, one doesn't particularly need to assume their nonexistence > > > either; one can simply postulate that the speed of light is as > > > absolute a barrier as it appears to be... > > > > I do assume that the speed of light is absolute, and that > > we have no magic physics yet to be discovered. > > > > > Then the nearest > > > extraterrestrial civilization could be a billion years older than we > > > are and be perfectly consistent with observation, provided they're at > > > least a billion light years away so signals or probes from them > > > haven't had time to reach us yet. Would you be happier with this > > > explanation? > > > > > > - Russell > > > > Well, no. I'm focused on the galaxy for now. I'm > > not ready to accept the notion that technological > > civilizations are short-lived. The Drake equation, > > as I understand it, suggests tech-capable civs must > > be short lived. Otherwise we are hard up for an > > explanation for why we aren't hearing or seeing > > them. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 17:30:23 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:30:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218121620.4329.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e05021801063d68e7d2@mail.gmail.com> <20050218121620.4329.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021809305a60c217@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:16:20 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Russell Wallace wrote: > > > > Yes, but you have zero evidence for that estimate. There's no reason > > at all to believe it to be e.g. 1e-6 rather than 1e-60, other than > > that you (in general, not just you personally) _want_ it to be the > > higher number. Which goes back to my puzzlement - why do so many > > people want there to be aliens in our galaxy? > > Why do you want there to not be aliens? Because most of the proposed answers to "then where are they now?" (at least, most of the ones that appear semi-plausible) are disconcerting ones. Of course, the universe isn't obliged to be such that I won't find it disconcerting, and I'm not claiming to know there _aren't_ any aliens in our part of the universe. I'm merely pointing out there is no reason to believe there _are_. Your turn ^.^ - Russell From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 17:40:33 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:40:33 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050218115832.23974.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e050217185874430179@mail.gmail.com> <20050218115832.23974.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0502180940133a7c0d@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:58:32 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > That is an incontrovertible result of the same logic in the SA: > because, if it is possible to simulate whole universes, and at least > one civilization in one natural universe simulates universes capable of > developing their own posthuman civilizations, then odds are > overwhelming that we live in a simulation. If we don't in fact live in > a simulation, we are either the one in a bazillion exception to the > 'living in a simulation' odds, or else we live in a universe where it > is impossible to simulate whole universes. Sorry, I misread your earlier comment - yes, one could plausibly argue that if we could be sure we are _not_ living in a simulation, then this would also give us reason to suspect it is impossible to simulate whole universes. However, since in fact we cannot know whether or not we are living in a simulation, we also cannot know whether it is possible to simulate whole universes; the simulation argument can't tell us anything about whether it is possible or not. - Russell From es at popido.com Fri Feb 18 18:02:23 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:02:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - The neural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <5844e22f05021803387f245f05@mail.gmail.com> References: <200502181106.j1IB6jp0023595@mail-core.space2u.com> <5844e22f05021803387f245f05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050218185854.027dfb50@mail.popido.com> At 12:38 2005-02-18 Jeff Medina wrote: >Erik: "Don't know if specific brands of objects are allowed in the game." > >20Q.net: "The object you think of should be something that most people >would know about, but, never a specific person, place or thing." > >"Saab 93 Aero" is not something most people know about. Erik: "But >maybe I was cheating a bit." Yep. It would be OK with just "saab". Saab is a rather well known company and brand. It's not a specific person, place or a thing. Anyway, would be interesting to see this technology integrated with the search engine of a domain specific web site. For example, using it to find that book you forgot the name of. Erik From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 18:26:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:26:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021809305a60c217@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218182629.64916.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > > > > Why do you want there to not be aliens? > > Because most of the proposed answers to "then where are they now?" > (at least, most of the ones that appear semi-plausible) are > disconcerting ones. > > Of course, the universe isn't obliged to be such that I won't find it > disconcerting, and I'm not claiming to know there _aren't_ any aliens > in our part of the universe. I'm merely pointing out there is no > reason to believe there _are_. Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now claim that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html "WASHINGTON -- A pair of NASA scientists told a group of space officials at a private meeting here Sunday that they have found strong evidence that life may exist today on Mars, hidden away in caves and sustained by pockets of water. The scientists, Carol Stoker and Larry Lemke of NASA?s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley, told the group that they have submitted their findings to the journal Nature for publication in May, and their paper currently is being peer reviewed. What Stoker and Lemke have found, according to several attendees of the private meeting, is not direct proof of life on Mars, but methane signatures and other signs of possible biological activity remarkably similar to those recently discovered in caves here on Earth." Now, we can quibble over 'likely' vs. 'is'. I am sure that even the most optimistic scientist would not say there _are_ aliens until they have the BEM in their test tube. However, one must be able to expect the probabilities are in favor of life being bountiful if we can show that two planets in this solar system have life on them both. If we find life on Europa, Ganymede, and Titan, then we must conclude that anywhere life is possible, life *will* happen. Given this, we must also conclude that anywhere life does happen, it will evolve as best as the environment allows, being a stochastic process. Any environment as amicable to life as ours should develop intelligence at some point. WRT Dan's claims that pessimism wins these arguments, sorry, wrong. History is littered with the wrong predictions of pessimists who professed to be experts. Why do you think that cryptozoologists are so underfoot? Their critics have been wrong so many times in the past. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 18:27:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:27:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021809305a60c217@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218182720.65091.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > > > > Why do you want there to not be aliens? > > Because most of the proposed answers to "then where are they now?" > (at least, most of the ones that appear semi-plausible) are > disconcerting ones. > > Of course, the universe isn't obliged to be such that I won't find it > disconcerting, and I'm not claiming to know there _aren't_ any aliens > in our part of the universe. I'm merely pointing out there is no > reason to believe there _are_. Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now claim that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html "WASHINGTON -- A pair of NASA scientists told a group of space officials at a private meeting here Sunday that they have found strong evidence that life may exist today on Mars, hidden away in caves and sustained by pockets of water. The scientists, Carol Stoker and Larry Lemke of NASA?s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley, told the group that they have submitted their findings to the journal Nature for publication in May, and their paper currently is being peer reviewed. What Stoker and Lemke have found, according to several attendees of the private meeting, is not direct proof of life on Mars, but methane signatures and other signs of possible biological activity remarkably similar to those recently discovered in caves here on Earth." Now, we can quibble over 'likely' vs. 'is'. I am sure that even the most optimistic scientist would not say there _are_ aliens until they have the BEM in their test tube. However, one must be able to expect the probabilities are in favor of life being bountiful if we can show that two planets in this solar system have life on them both. If we find life on Europa, Ganymede, and Titan, then we must conclude that anywhere life is possible, life *will* happen. Given this, we must also conclude that anywhere life does happen, it will evolve as best as the environment allows, being a stochastic process. Any environment as amicable to life as ours should develop intelligence at some point. WRT Dan's claims that pessimism wins these arguments, sorry, wrong. History is littered with the wrong predictions of pessimists who professed to be experts. Why do you think that cryptozoologists are so underfoot? Their critics have been wrong so many times in the past. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 18:34:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:34:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0502180940133a7c0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218183407.38716.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > Sorry, I misread your earlier comment - yes, one could plausibly > argue that if we could be sure we are _not_ living in a simulation, > then this would also give us reason to suspect it is impossible to > simulate whole universes. > > However, since in fact we cannot know whether or not we are living in > a simulation, we also cannot know whether it is possible to simulate > whole universes; the simulation argument can't tell us anything about > whether it is possible or not. Not *now*, but at some point we should know enough to know whether it is possible or not, because we would have the technology to be able to simulate universes if it were possible and be unable to do so for some physical reason, or able to do it. At that point, because simulatability would be provable, then we cannot, even by Godel's arguments, say that living in a simulation is the same as not. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 18:35:48 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:35:48 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218182629.64916.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e05021809305a60c217@mail.gmail.com> <20050218182629.64916.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05021810356a07d6ec@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:26:29 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now claim > that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: I'm aware of that result, but: 1) Methane is also produced by nonbiological processes, so all the presence of methane on Mars actually tells us is that either there is life on Mars or there is not - which isn't exactly news. 2) Even if there is life on Mars, that doesn't constitute evidence for it having evolved more than once in our solar system, because we know material has been transmitted between the planets in conditions such that it could have carried viable spores. 3) Even if we were to find evidence of life having evolved more than once, this wouldn't constitute evidence that it evolves intelligence in more than, say, 1e-100 of cases. (On Earth, life appeared more or less as soon as it could have, and intelligence appeared more or less as late as it could have, which is what we would expect to see if the evolution of intelligence is more difficult. Of course, this is still consistent with the probability of life being 1e-100 and the probability of intelligence given life being 1e-200.) I'll try once more: why do you want aliens to exist? Why do you regard the idea that they don't exist as "pessimism"? - Russell From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 18:56:28 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:56:28 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e050218105613ccc181@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:30 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly reduced. > Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of assets and lengthy jail time for a start. > > Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. A cartoon I read, long ago: A: "The bus is late again, damn it." B: "Yeah, it's a nuisance isn't it?" A: "What this country needs is a strong leader! Someone who can make the buses run on time!!" B: "...I think I'd rather wait for the bus." - Russell From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 18 20:06:21 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218182720.65091.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218200621.39752.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with > you. They now claim > that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: > http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html False alarm, apparently: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050214/marswater.html (Specifically countering the Space.com story.) From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 18 20:14:08 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:14:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] signals or noise? References: <20050216222530.16927.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com><00d001c5147d$321f8080$0100a8c0@kevin> <4213F8C1.4060006@cox.net><000401c5152d$9a1fe3e0$6dc51b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20050217154227.01d16ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c515f6$68934ff0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> From: "Damien Broderick" > This topic was discussed in detail and depth > 9 years ago on this list, and I mined that > discussion in my book THE SPIKE [...] Eh, les proto-extropiens! There is an interesting discussion here http://www.arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/9907500 about all that. Shannon wrote that S = - SUM_i p_i log p_i where S is the amount of information carried by a channel per message, p_i is the probability of transmission of a certain message m_i through the channel. S is maximized when p_i are all equal (all messages m_i have the same probability). But in this case the resulting flow of data tend to appear random. In statistical mechanics instead of messages m_i there are particles (i.e. photons) and instead of the amount of information S there is the amount of entropy. The maximization of entropy gives rise to a 'blackbody' radiation, for photons. Also in this case signals tend to appear like noise. From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 18 20:36:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:36:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA and martian life, not Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050218143532.01b6c640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> February 18, 2005 RELEASE: 05-052 NASA Statement On False Claim Of Evidence Of Life On Mars News reports on February 16, 2005, that NASA scientists from Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., have found strong evidence that life may exist on Mars are incorrect. NASA does not have any observational data from any current Mars missions that supports this claim. The work by the scientists mentioned in the reports cannot be used to directly infer anything about life on Mars, but may help formulate the strategy for how to search for martian life. Their research concerns extreme environments on Earth as analogs of possible environments on Mars. No research paper has been submitted by them to any scientific journal asserting martian life. From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 18 20:47:04 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:47:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Quantum Diaries' reveal the secret lives of modernphysicists References: <470a3c52050216060960d55076@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <071f01c515fb$015c7be0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> There are many other 'quantum' bloggers these days! M. Nielsen [this is a very good one!] http://www.qinfo.org/people/nielsen/blog/ M. Sarovar http://reasonrhyme.blogspot.com/ M. Bremner http://quantumbiodiscs.blogspot.com/ D. Bacon http://dabacon.org/pontiff/ S. Paquet http://quantumbits.blogspot.com/ J. Kleid http://qualgorithms.blogspot.com/ L. Fortnow http://weblog.fortnow.com/ M.A. Martin-Delgado http://quantum.fis.ucm.es/ K. Khodjasteh http://openqc.info/not/ Lubos Motl http://motls.blogspot.com/ http://www.sfu.ca/~bhosseyn/tangledbits/ http://www.steelypips.org/principles/ http://www.signalplusnoise.com/blog/ http://preposterousuniverse.blogspot.com/ http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/index.shtml http://atdotde.blogspot.com/ http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/ http://web.mit.edu/people/cabi/blog/ http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/ http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/ http://latticeqcd.blogspot.com/ http://travisgarrett.blogspot.com/ http://web.mit.edu/guarrera/www/blog.htm From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Feb 18 21:36:52 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:36:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <00d101c515d7$94908ba0$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <8d71341e0502161332216281a3@mail.gmail.com> <200502170734.j1H7Ymh20223@tick.javien.com> <948b11e0502180100504fac69@mail.gmail.com> <00d101c515d7$94908ba0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2005, at 8:33 AM, kevinfreels.com wrote: > I sorely disagree with you on this one. I think that our minds are the > means > to overcome the bad parts of our programming. That is why we are the > only > surviving member of the hominid family. H. neanderthalensis may have > been > pretty smart, but they also may have hunted themselves out of food, > burned > themselves out of land, or taken on some other similar self-destructive > behavior. As of now, there are few explanations for the extinction of > H.n > since they seem to have lived peacefully alongside us. It is possible > that > they simply destroyed themselves. i did not say that we could not succeed. But I am impressed by how much evolutionary programming predicts much of our behavior. What percentage of people do you believe are quite rational, use very effective analysis and decision making tools and strategies and nearly always implement those rational decisions? My experience is that the number is vanishingly small. I believe this is in large part an artifact of our evolution and that it is very likely to be present in any naturally evolved species of intelligent animal. > > As humans, we have evolved the ability to think several steps ahead. > It is > one thing we are very good at that separates us from other animals and > we > recognize this in people such as Kasparov. We may be reaching that > point > where the changes will occur faster than we can think ahead, but we > already > know the solution to that.....build a machine to do the thinking ahead > for > us. :-) > Actually we only generally think a few steps ahead and a great deal of our thinking is used to justify urgings and programs from non-rational parts of our being. To survive rapid change we would need to be able to rapidly change ourselves and have the capacity and willingness to do so. It is not obvious that this ability and willingness is the case or likely to become the case in sufficient numbers to make our survival probable. > It is interesting to note that your fear is common. It is natural for > human > beings to be afraid that we are going to destroy ourselves. We have > been > obsessed with doomsday predictions since before we were able to write > them > down. So many books and movies have been written on the topic that I > couldn;t even begin to name them all. It is a very popular topic in > both > fiction and non-fiction. Could it be that this fear you have is the > very > evolutionary device employed to keep us from destroying ourselves? This is not a simple obsession and your suggestion that it is is condescending and does not increase the odds. if enough people react similarly and effectively deny the problem then we almost certainly are doomed. > > I like to think of human beings as playing the same role that > single-celled > organisms played in the early stages of life on this planet. We are > set to > enter a new and glorious age with infinite diversity. Yes, the human > species > itself may not survive any more than the original single-celled > organisms > have survuved to this day. But we will be the common ancestor of > things as > different from us as we are from cyanobacteria. > Ah. So you do not care especially whether we survive or not as long as something more interesting comes out of our time? - samantha From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 22:29:58 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:29:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05021810356a07d6ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050218222958.31122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Russell Wallace wrote: > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:26:29 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > > > Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now > claim > > that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: > > I'm aware of that result, but: > > 1) Methane is also produced by nonbiological processes, so all the > presence of methane on Mars actually tells us is that either there is > life on Mars or there is not - which isn't exactly news. > > 2) Even if there is life on Mars, that doesn't constitute evidence > for > it having evolved more than once in our solar system, because we know > material has been transmitted between the planets in conditions such > that it could have carried viable spores. > > 3) Even if we were to find evidence of life having evolved more than > once, this wouldn't constitute evidence that it evolves intelligence > in more than, say, 1e-100 of cases. (On Earth, life appeared more or > less as soon as it could have, and intelligence appeared more or less > as late as it could have, which is what we would expect to see if the > evolution of intelligence is more difficult. Of course, this is still > consistent with the probability of life being 1e-100 and the > probability of intelligence given life being 1e-200.) You need to back up these incredibly outrageous numbers with some facts, as well as your assertion that intelligence appeared as late as it could have. Firstly the fossil record clearly shows carnivores and herbivores, both during the dinosaur era as well as during the mammallian era, followed an arms race of increasing brain capacity. The only breaks in those races came as a result of astronomical cataclysms: major asteroid/comet impacts. Intelligence rather seems to have shown up right on time here on earth, given the uncertainty of planetary stability. Now, given the age of our solar system (3.5-4 billion years), the lack of eccentricity in the orbits of our planets (which impacts the rate of astronomical cataclysms and the long term stability of climate on life bearing planets), and the relative (so far) rarity of solar systems with low eccentricity planetary orbits, it does indicate that intelligent life appeared here relatively faster than the average planetary system, however, being as our solar system is relatively young in the 13.5 billion year age of the universe, even if planetary systems started showing up 6-8 billion years ago, that leaves an immense amount of time for more earth-like planets to show up. Why do I want there to be aliens? That's easy: I want a job writing for Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 22:43:51 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:43:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218222958.31122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e05021810356a07d6ec@mail.gmail.com> <20050218222958.31122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e050218144338bca67a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:29:58 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Why do I want there to be aliens? That's easy: I want a job writing for > Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Fair enough, that's a clear answer - just watch out for the copy editors ;) - Russell From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 18 22:46:34 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:46:34 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Quantum Diaries' reveal the secret lives of modernphysicists In-Reply-To: <071f01c515fb$015c7be0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> References: <470a3c52050216060960d55076@mail.gmail.com> <071f01c515fb$015c7be0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050218164341.01b7fec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:47 PM 2/18/2005 +0100, s. wrote: >There are many other 'quantum' bloggers >these days! > >M. Nielsen [this is a very good one!] >http://www.qinfo.org/people/nielsen/blog/ Michael is a former poster to this list. One of the many who got bored with the s/n ratio, which has worsened markedly since then, alas. I think the list is on its last legs. (Serafino's posts, of course, are always terrific.) Damien Broderick From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 22:43:51 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:43:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218222958.31122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8d71341e05021810356a07d6ec@mail.gmail.com> <20050218222958.31122.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e050218144338bca67a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:29:58 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Why do I want there to be aliens? That's easy: I want a job writing for > Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Fair enough, that's a clear answer - just watch out for the copy editors ;) - Russell From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Fri Feb 18 23:41:19 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:41:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Where have you been? Message-ID: <20050218233106.M60583@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> spike: >Sure a few will make it to way cool careers such as >astronomy: Amara Graps did it. But they don't really >explain to the students that only a few make the high- >profile careers. Most of us suffer far more mundane >9-to-5s. Not so cool if the career(s) lack enough money for a person to live on. (I have more than one 'career') Astronomy here has almost become a career for rich people. They are the only people who can afford to subsidize Italian science. (The rest leave.) From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 02:24:28 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:24:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <00d101c515d7$94908ba0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <200502190226.j1J2Qdh15259@tick.javien.com> > To: Samantha Atkins; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence > > ... I think that our minds are the means > to overcome the bad parts of our programming. That is why we are the only > surviving member of the hominid family. H. neanderthalensis may have been > pretty smart, but they also may have hunted themselves out of food, burned > themselves out of land, or taken on some other similar self-destructive > behavior... There is a possibility of course that CroMagnon hunted Neanderthalensis to extinction intentionally. That notion is reinforced by the National Geographic report that certain African tribes despise and fear the Orangutan. They seem to not fully grasp the notion that there is a great gap between human and orangutan. (Perhaps they have a point there.) Clearly the beast is a direct competitor for food, so those two species are natural enemies we might suppose. They attempt to slay every orangutan possible, which is making it very difficult to save the species from extinction. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 02:45:17 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:45:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050218185854.027dfb50@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <200502190247.j1J2lRh17107@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Erik Starck > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:02 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - Theneural- > net on the Internet > > At 12:38 2005-02-18 Jeff Medina wrote: > >Erik: "Don't know if specific brands of objects are allowed in the game." > > > >20Q.net: "The object you think of should be something that most people > >would know about, but, never a specific person, place or thing." ... > > Anyway, would be interesting to see this technology integrated with the > search engine of a domain specific web site. For example, using it to find > that book you forgot the name of. Erik The important issue is how effectively the 20 questions software learns. If enough people play the game, then eventually it should get something specific like brand and model of a car or bike. That would be cool. Recall the eliza experiment a couple years ago where someone rigged eliza to the internet teen chat group. He had a whole bunch of teens converse with eliza, never realizing it was software. Many of those who did figure it out did so because the software would respond instantly, faster than a person can type. That can be fixed. That looks to me like machines have passed the Turing test. Next step is to take the 20 questions software and do a Turing test with informed contestants. This software is good enough that it is difficult to tell if a human or a machine is working the other end. Friends, we have survived to see computers pass Turing's criterion. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 02:48:30 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:48:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050218182629.64916.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502190250.j1J2oeh17426@tick.javien.com> > > ... I'm merely pointing out there is no > > reason to believe there _are_. > > Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now claim > that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: > http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html > > "WASHINGTON -- A pair of NASA scientists told a group of space > officials at a private meeting here Sunday that they have found strong > evidence that life may exist today on Mars... NASA is refuting this today. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a.Op3tJWtiRc&refer=us dammit. {8-[ spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 03:49:46 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:49:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] new mersenne prime probable In-Reply-To: <071f01c515fb$015c7be0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <200502190352.j1J3pvh24309@tick.javien.com> Wooooohoooo! We may have our 42nd Mersenne prime. It isn't the 100,000 dollar winning ten million digit, but Woltman has reported that the result came from one of our seasoned veterans on GIMPS. So there is a very good chance its fer real. I'll report back in a couple weeks with confirmation or otherwise. spike http://mathworld.wolfram.com/news/2005-02-18/mersenne/ http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/18/1855206&tid=146&tid=14 From igoddard at umd.edu Sat Feb 19 04:14:31 2005 From: igoddard at umd.edu (Ian Goddard) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:14:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Analyzing the simulation argument Message-ID: <76b1b9d5.d0e1dc68.81d1c00@po0.mail.umd.edu> Mike Lorrey wrote: >On the contrary. If this universe were a simulation, then >everything about it would be a product of the physical >characteristics of the originating universe. But that's a *giant* IF. My point is that if we are in a computer program -- our bodies, minds, and world entirely computational fabrications -- then our knowledge is restricted to the interior of said program and as such we cannot identify any attribute of our reality as confirming that our world is a computer program because we cannot compare our phony universe to reality. To posit our universe as a perfect simulation of a universe outside it is just conjecture that carries no epistemic or scientific weight. The SA is a metaphysical argument. Our universe might be a perfect or semi-perfect simulation, or an entirely unique universe... a prize winning universe entered in a universe- programming contest in some being-inhabited universe beyond both our sight and comprehension. Who knows? Moreover, who *can* know? I'd dare to propose that none of us can know. All of our systems and parameters of knowledge are based entirely on the (assumed for the sake of argument) computer program we're in and any universe outside our program universe *may* inexorably exceed our epistemic boundaries. >Well, if our universe is a simulation, we should be able to >communicate to its sysop/root, but not necessarily would we >be able to hear anything back, even if the root wanted to. But could we prove that some powerful being purporting to be "The Sysop" was in fact such a sysop? Suppose there are advanced civilizations that share our (assumed to be) real physical universe (or other dimensions embedded in a higher dimensional universe of which our 3Ds of space are a part) and they enjoy persuading less evolved computerized civilizations like our own by various profound means of conjuring that we are merely computer constructs and that these jokers are the sysops. Arguments like the SA run into problems of trying to define the ultimate nature of reality, which *may* inexorably exceed the boundaries of science. http://IanGoddard.net/journal.htm David Hume on induction: "When we have lived any time, and have been accustomed to the uniformity of nature, we acquire a general habit, by which we always transfer the known to the unknown, and conceive the latter to resemble the former." From dgc at cox.net Sat Feb 19 05:21:43 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:21:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <200502190226.j1J2Qdh15259@tick.javien.com> References: <200502190226.j1J2Qdh15259@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4216CCE7.8030408@cox.net> spike wrote: >There is a possibility of course that CroMagnon hunted >Neanderthalensis to extinction intentionally. That >notion is reinforced by the National Geographic report >that certain African tribes despise and fear the Orangutan. > > I think that this is unlikely. The Orangutan is native to Sumatra, not Africa. >They seem to not fully grasp the notion that there is >a great gap between human and orangutan. (Perhaps they >have a point there.) Clearly the beast is a direct >competitor for food, so those two species are natural >enemies we might suppose. They attempt to slay every >orangutan possible, which is making it very difficult to >save the species from extinction. > > > I think subsistence-level humans take this approach with any competitor. It's not necessary to anthropormorphise a competitor to decide to eliminate it. Apparently, modern-day commercial fishermen treated dolphins the same way until fairly recently. If killing a dolphin can feed my starving children, or let me harvest enough shrimp to make the next payment on my shrimp boat and thereby avoid default (and keep my children from poverty) then it a dead dolphin. In general, people who can get close enough to an animal or plant to kill it have a much deeper understanding of the species than arm-chair ecologists. Unfortunately, those practical folks do not in general have the resources to make evaluations on a larger scale. From emerson at singinst.org Sat Feb 19 07:02:56 2005 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:02:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Seeking SIAI Volunteer Coordinator In-Reply-To: <33429c270502181040723c61ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502190703.j1J73ah12596@tick.javien.com> "What does the Volunteer Coordinator do?" The VC will encourage and guide volunteer effort. That's an extraordinarily valuable role but certainly no small one. In 2005, my time will be fully taken up by donor solicitation, nonprofit administration, and coordination with SI affiliates (including the VC), which is why I need someone to step-up and fill this role. The work would include: coordinating effort for advocacy projects, hosting a monthly volunteer meeting online, increasing the volunteers mailing list activity, and contacting and working with volunteers. I want to collaborate with someone who is familiar with our research aims and the logic for them, and willing to work at achieving results. If that could be you, then reach me directly at emerson at singinst.org or 650.353.6063. Thanks, ~~~ Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute P.O. Box 50182 Palo Alto, CA 94303 Phone: 650.353.6063 emerson at singinst.org http://www.singinst.org/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-volunteers at singinst.org [mailto:owner-volunteers at singinst.org] On Behalf Of Scott Powell Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:41 AM To: volunteers at singinst.org Subject: Re: Seeking SIAI Volunteer Coordinator Tyler, What does the Volunteer Coordinator do? On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:17:00 -0800, Tyler Emerson wrote: > I'm looking for someone to take on the volunteer role of SIAI > Volunteer Coordinator. After being our VC for two years, Chris > Rovner has taken the position of Webmaster. The new Volunteer > Coordinator would be collaborating closely with Chris and I. > > If interested, please reach me at emerson at singinst.org. A more > detailed description of the position would then be sent. Since > it's [a] volunteer position, only part-time hrs would be asked. > > Thanks, > > ~~~ > Tyler Emerson > Executive Director > Singularity Institute > P.O. Box 50182 > Palo Alto, CA 94303 > Phone: 650.353.6063 > emerson at singinst.org > http://www.singinst.org/ > > From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 07:48:11 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:48:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Quantum Diaries' reveal the secret lives of modernphysicists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050218164341.01b7fec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <470a3c52050216060960d55076@mail.gmail.com> <071f01c515fb$015c7be0$31b01b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20050218164341.01b7fec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205021823486c223020@mail.gmail.com> Michael blog is great, too bad he does not post here anymore. Perhaps he can be invited back? You cannot have any signal without tolerating some noise. I don't think the list is on its last legs, perhaps a bit sick. Nothing that cannot be cured with vitamines and exercise. G. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:46:34 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:47 PM 2/18/2005 +0100, s. wrote: > > >There are many other 'quantum' bloggers > >these days! > > > >M. Nielsen [this is a very good one!] > >http://www.qinfo.org/people/nielsen/blog/ > > Michael is a former poster to this list. One of the many who got bored with > the s/n ratio, which has worsened markedly since then, alas. I think the > list is on its last legs. (Serafino's posts, of course, are always terrific.) > > Damien Broderick From es at popido.com Sat Feb 19 10:37:42 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:37:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200502190247.j1J2lRh17107@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050218185854.027dfb50@mail.popido.com> <200502190247.j1J2lRh17107@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219110017.0625f7e0@mail.popido.com> At 03:45 2005-02-19 spike wrote: >Next step is to take the 20 questions software and do >a Turing test with informed contestants. This software >is good enough that it is difficult to tell if a human >or a machine is working the other end. Friends, we >have survived to see computers pass Turing's criterion. Hardly. This 20q game is a constrained environment, not that different from dynamically building SQL queries to a database. It's a cool technology demo and fascinating display of how a relatively simple program can learn from its' users and improve it's own capabilities, but it's not closer to passing the Turing test than say for example the Amazon suggestion database. Erik From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 17:39:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:39:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <200502190226.j1J2Qdh15259@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050219173945.76648.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > > To: Samantha Atkins; ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence > > > > ... I think that our minds are the means > > to overcome the bad parts of our programming. That is why we are > > the only surviving member of the hominid family. H. > > neanderthalensis may have been pretty smart, but they also may > > have hunted themselves out of food, burned themselves out of land, > > or taken on some other similar self-destructive behavior... > > There is a possibility of course that CroMagnon hunted > Neanderthalensis to extinction intentionally. That > notion is reinforced by the National Geographic report > that certain African tribes despise and fear the Orangutan. > They seem to not fully grasp the notion that there is > a great gap between human and orangutan. (Perhaps they > have a point there.) Clearly the beast is a direct > competitor for food, so those two species are natural > enemies we might suppose. They attempt to slay every > orangutan possible, which is making it very difficult to > save the species from extinction. There does seem to be a record of hominid on hominid predation that is shown with homo erectus predation on early homo sap and homo n.. Such inter-hominid conflict may be a significant evolutionary contributor to humans natural xenophobia (just as our fear of reptiles, spiders, etc has a natural basis). ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 17:40:40 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <200502190250.j1J2oeh17426@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050219174040.38104.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > > ... I'm merely pointing out there is no > > > reason to believe there _are_. > > > > Well, I believe NASA has something to dispute with you. They now > claim > > that alien life is most likely now living on Mars: > > http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html > > > > "WASHINGTON -- A pair of NASA scientists told a group of space > > officials at a private meeting here Sunday that they have found > strong > > evidence that life may exist today on Mars... > > NASA is refuting this today. > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a.Op3tJWtiRc&refer=us > > dammit. {8-[ I think they are just being careful considering all the flak they originally took over the martian meteorite fossil claims. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Feb 19 17:44:34 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:44:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Science Toys Message-ID: <20050219174230.M16877@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> (you can make at home) Science Toys http://www.scitoys.com/ From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 18:05:00 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:05:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <4216CCE7.8030408@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502191807.j1JI7Ah28725@tick.javien.com> ... > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Clemmensen ... > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence > > spike wrote: > > > > >...that certain African tribes despise and fear the Orangutan. > > > I think that this is unlikely. The Orangutan is native to > Sumatra, not Africa... Dan, they were plotting I tells ya! A bunch of African tribesmen hatched an evil plan to invade Indonesia and attack those orangutans. It would have succeeded but for the airport security, who would not let them board without proper driver's licenses. (Oops. Once again, Africa takes the blame for something someone else was doing.) > If killing a dolphin can feed my starving children, or let me harvest enough shrimp to make the next > payment > on my shrimp boat and thereby avoid default (and keep my children from > poverty) > then it a dead dolphin... Ja, one can scarcely blame hungry humans for devouring dolphin. That endangered species stuff only matters if one is well fed, warm and comfortable. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 18:17:12 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:17:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions -Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219110017.0625f7e0@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <200502191819.j1JIJVh30416@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Erik Starck > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions -Theneural- > net on the Internet > > At 03:45 2005-02-19 spike wrote: > >... Friends, we > >have survived to see computers pass Turing's criterion. > > Hardly. This 20q game is a constrained environment, not that different > from > dynamically building SQL queries to a database. It's a cool technology > demo > and fascinating display of how a relatively simple program can learn from > its' users and improve it's own capabilities, but it's not closer to > passing the Turing test than say for example the Amazon suggestion > database. Erik What we have learned is that the Turing test can be challenged with nothing more sophisticated than a giant lookup table. I have long suspected that much of human-speak is nothing more than a de-facto lookup table. If we could get a ton of data from teen chat sites, randomly generate comments such as "sup", "how r u?", "shizzle be down widdat, dawg," all liberally sprinkled with the universal functional adverb "like", we could create a lookup table that would do an adequate job of simulating an unsophisticated human, possibly good enough to fool some on Turing's criterion. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Feb 19 21:02:14 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:02:14 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Why global warming is anthropogenic Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219145942.01cc9f28@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1490248,00.html February 19, 2005 Why global warming is not natural By Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent Report from the American Association for the Advancement of Science THE strongest evidence yet that global warming has been triggered by human activity has emerged from a study of rising temperatures in the oceans. The rise in marine temperatures ? by an average of 0.5C (0.9F) in 40 years ? can be explained only if greenhouse gas emissions are responsible, research has shown. The results are so compelling that they should end controversy about the causes of climate change, one of the scientists who led the study said yesterday. ?The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people,? said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. ?The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable.? Dr Barnett?s team examined seven million observations of temperature, salinity and other variables in the world?s oceans collected by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and compared the patterns with those predicted by computer models of potential causes of climate change. Natural variation in the Earth?s climate, or changes in solar activity or volcanic eruptions, which have been suggested as alternative explanations for rising temperatures, could not explain the data collected in the real world. Models based on man-made emissions of greenhouse gases matched the observations almost precisely. ?What absolutely nailed it was the greenhouse model,? Dr Barnett told the American Association for the Advancement of Science conference in Washington. Two models, one designed in Britain and one here in the US, got it almost exactly. We were stunned.? Climate change has affected the seas in different ways in different parts of the world: in the Atlantic, rising temperatures can be observed up to 2,300ft below the surface, while in the Pacific the warming is seen only up to 330ft down. Only the greenhouse models replicated the changes that have been observed in practice. ?All the potential culprits have been ruled out except one,? Dr Barnett said. The results, which are about to be submitted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal, should increase pressure on the US Administration to sign the Kyoto Protocol, which came into force this week, he said. ?It is time for nations that are not part of Kyoto to re-evaluate and see if it would be to their advantage to join,? he said. ?The debate is not ? have we got a clear global warming signal; the debate is ? what we are going to do about it.? In a separate study a team led by Ruth Curry, of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Connecticut, has established that 20,000 sq km of freshwater ice melted in the Arctic between 1965 and 1995. Further melting on this scale could be sufficient to turn off the ocean currents that drive the Gulf Stream, which keeps Britain up to 6C warmer than it would otherwise be. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 22:36:00 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:36:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions -Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200502191819.j1JIJVh30416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050219223600.50521.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > What we have learned is that the Turing test can be challenged > with nothing more sophisticated than a giant lookup table. > I have long suspected that much of human-speak is nothing > more than a de-facto lookup table. If we could get a ton > of data from teen chat sites, randomly generate comments > such as "sup", "how r u?", "shizzle be down widdat, dawg," > all liberally sprinkled with the universal functional adverb > "like", we could create a lookup table that would do an > adequate job of simulating an unsophisticated human, > possibly good enough to fool some on Turing's criterion. Especially considering some of the people one encounters online already of questionable humanity.... it is apparent the lack of intelligence does not preclude one from being human. To pass the Turing Test, I think it would be more important to develop artificial stupidity. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sat Feb 19 23:22:02 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:22:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence References: <20050219173945.76648.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c516d9$d1cec330$0100a8c0@kevin> > > There does seem to be a record of hominid on hominid predation that is > shown with homo erectus predation on early homo sap and homo n.. Such > inter-hominid conflict may be a significant evolutionary contributor to > humans natural xenophobia (just as our fear of reptiles, spiders, etc > has a natural basis). > Where is this record? Please tell me where to find it. The most commonly accepted thoughts in this area are that these different people co-existed side by side for 30k+ years without signs of conflict. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 23:54:03 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <003901c516d9$d1cec330$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050219235403.30109.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > > Where is this record? Please tell me where to find it. The most > commonly > accepted thoughts in this area are that these different people > co-existed > side by side for 30k+ years without signs of conflict. That big shaft cave dig in Spain found Homo sap and Homo n bones with erectus tooth marks. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Feb 20 00:20:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:20:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] walk this way In-Reply-To: <200502180447.j1I4lah31837@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050220002041.91673.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > This is so wicked cool: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/02/17/robot.toddlers.ap/index.html > > They are actually reporting two breakthroughs here, > which > causes me to suspect either the press has goofed the > story > or that something else is wrong with it. They are > reporting > that they have discovered a far more efficient way > for > robots to walk using springs (which is believable > and > exciting) and that the device itself learns (which > is > exciting as hell, but dubious). Actually, devices that (kind of) learn have been with us for a while. Maybe the press involved are already starting to become jaded with the number of devices that have been brought out with that label (regardless of how true or false the label is)? From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 20 00:43:33 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:43:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic dentata In-Reply-To: <20050219235403.30109.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <003901c516d9$d1cec330$0100a8c0@kevin> <20050219235403.30109.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219184236.01ce80b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:54 PM 2/19/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >erectus tooth marks. Ouch! I hate it when that happens. Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Feb 20 00:49:53 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions - Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200502190247.j1J2lRh17107@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050220004953.4155.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Recall the eliza experiment a couple years ago where > someone rigged eliza to the internet teen chat > group. > He had a whole bunch of teens converse with eliza, > never realizing it was software. Many of those who > did > figure it out did so because the software would > respond > instantly, faster than a person can type. That can > be fixed. That looks to me like machines have > passed > the Turing test. There's a critical difference (which you acknowledge as the next step, but I'd say is necessary for claims of passing "the Turing test"): many of the teens weren't even aware of the realistic possibility of computers imitating humans. (Sure, they'd seen it in sci-fi, but actually conversing with one in real life? That still blows the minds of many of the general public - even many of those who kind of understand how spam is generated.) In the Turing test, on the other hand, the judge not only knows that computers may try to imitate humans (well enough to bother putting them through the Turing test), but that one of the other conversants really is a computer. It makes for good stealth when the ones you're hiding from aren't looking for you, either specifically or as part of a class of things they are looking for. From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sun Feb 20 00:53:07 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:53:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence References: <20050219235403.30109.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101c516e6$8b7818c0$0100a8c0@kevin> Are you referring to Atapuerca? I have never read anything about H. erectus eating H.n or H.s. Can you please give me a source for this? It sounds really interesting. From aperick at centurytel.net Sun Feb 20 00:49:42 2005 From: aperick at centurytel.net (Rick Woolley) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:49:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel (SA/SH) In-Reply-To: <200502121904.j1CJ45s23447@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel: There exists a small community of vastly advanced transhuman entities. They tend to suffer from boredom. Their main mission, their reason to "get out of bed in the morning" is to continue to refine and test their theories as to their own origins: the origin of each of their personal first and seminal characters or personalities. Running simulations is one tool which they employ to this end. Their only source of recreation and entertainment also comes from running simulations -- for sport. They set up semi out-of-control and random sims on which to attempt to make predictions and then enjoy making friendly wagers. But the favorite activity for most is the completely veiled total emersion sim in which a "universe" just for one (or in some cases a few) is created and then the godlike transhuman entity transfers all his consciousness to the main character in the sim, effectively rendering the god temporarily mortal and appropriately ignorant. Such sims can be set to run for entire life spans of the simulated character, or can be set to terminate early, or have paranormal, "miraculous", or any other sort of scheduled "interventions." Often these sorts of sims actually begin at mid lifespan complete with a completely convincing set of memories of life up to that moment. The point of these sims, the thing that makes them so addictive, is that they give the entity the chance to experience novelty and adventure, and to feel "real" pleasures and "real" pains -- to face real death, and experience in new ways the thrill of fighting to survive, and to struggle to find happiness. The novel would be divided into several sections each focusing on a different sim, or this could be a grand series of novels and novellas. I have found this universe and all the people and things in it to be so very strange as to lack credibility at times. The simulation Hypothesis could be an explanation for things being just too weird. Ya, I know, you all think I'm weird too. When i think of the possibility of my life being a sim, and not "real", I generally do not imagine that the sim actually extends to include all the people and things in my universe that i perceive and believe to exist. I instead imagine that most, if not all the other persons and things I encounter are comparatively shallow objects that generally only "run" while i perceive them directly. Just because I seem to be a complex and somewhat self-aware sentient object is in and of itself no evidence that those that i perceive are similar to myself. Some could very well be, but I seriously doubt that any transhuman entity would run a sim so vast as to simultaneously simulate everything in a large section of space. Is that not what you folks are referring to when you talk about "we" being in a simulated universe? From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 02:26:43 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <001101c516e6$8b7818c0$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20050220022643.78718.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "kevinfreels.com" wrote: > Are you referring to Atapuerca? I have never read anything about H. > erectus > eating H.n or H.s. Can you please give me a source for this? It > sounds > really interesting. > I recalled the paleontologists digging at the site talking about it on a tv documentary at the time they were getting a lot of exposure. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 20 03:21:02 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:21:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel (SA/SH) In-Reply-To: References: <200502121904.j1CJ45s23447@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219211221.01d2c8c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Rick, variations on this idea have been around for at least half a century. Fred Pohl's `The Tunnel Under the World' (1955). Dan Galouye's SIMULACRON-3 (1964) is a bit like this. My own THE SEA'S FURTHEST END (1964, 1993) is closer still, but more solipsistic. It's a possible explanation for some of the events in my forthcoming novel GODPLAYERS. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 10:50:37 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:50:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <20050220022643.78718.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <001101c516e6$8b7818c0$0100a8c0@kevin> <20050220022643.78718.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:26:43 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > I recalled the paleontologists digging at the site talking about it on > a tv documentary at the time they were getting a lot of exposure. > And this justifies making sweeping claims that homo sap had Neanderthal and fries for dinner ??!! :) Pre-history anthropology is a bit more complicated than that. The Atapuerca finds pre-date both homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis. The bones do appear to show signs of cannibalism. There is some speculation that they might be the last remnants of a common ancestor. Apparently there were many different species of hominids living at the same time in early pre-history. See: "Homo antecessor was named in 1977 from fossils found at the Spanish cave site of Atapuerca, dated to at least 780,000 years ago, making them the oldest confirmed European hominids. The mid-facial area of antecessor seems very modern, but other parts of the skull such as the teeth, forehead and browridges are much more primitive. Many scientists are doubtful about the validity of antecessor, partly because its definition is based on a juvenile specimen, and feel it may belong to another species. (Bermudez de Castro et al. 1997; Kunzig 1997, Carbonell et al. 1995)". Also see: "The eventual fate of the Neanderthals in the modern human phylogeny is still a much questioned issue, and a vigorously debated one. However, one thing is certain, the issue is not as cut and dry as many supporters of the Out of Africa II theory oftentimes claim. It seems highly unlikely that the Neanderthals contributed absolutely nothing to the modern genome, but whether they left a large heritage in modern humans or an insignificant one is a question that might not be answered satisfactorily for a long time". BillK From dirk at neopax.com Mon Feb 21 22:16:13 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:16:13 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> Message-ID: <421A5DAD.20000@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > Do we really need more outrageous ways to throw lives away? a kid > runs a script and he or his parents become wards of the state for > life? Someone does the ultimate mass advertising and loses their > life? How is this remotely just? Isn't it enough and much too much > that the US has more of its people in prison than any country on > earth? The evidence also does not look good that such outrageous > deterrents would work even if you ignore the other problems. > Tell me about the problems with vandalism in Singapore... I seem to recall one American kid who discovered why its almost non-existent. No doubt he still bears the scars. I suspect that if ever again he visits the place he won't be spray painting the locals cars for fun. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Feb 21 22:17:50 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:17:50 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <7fb20747c739585c983693e8864af597@mac.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> <7fb20747c739585c983693e8864af597@mac.com> Message-ID: <421A5E0E.9040609@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >> I suggest that such countries be made to take these problems seriously. >> Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within nations that fail >> to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good way to start. > > > Severing the digital nervous system of a country to force compliance > with foreign dictates is a clear act of war. What a brilliant solution! It's clearly *not* an act of war, anymore than refusing incoming phonecalls from someone you don't like is an act of war. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Feb 21 22:23:49 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:23:49 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> References: <200502140643.j1E6hjs25498@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421A5F75.4050008@neopax.com> spike wrote: >Even if we go with the notion that we exist in some >sort of meta-sim, it still fails to explain the one >observation that has puzzled me to no end: that the >cosmos are not buzzing with signals. How could that >be? Surely we are not the first tech-capable species >to evolve. Could we *really* be the very first ones >to come along? That notion is just too mind-boggling. >So where are the others? > > > If we are living in a sim it merely means that the computing power is rather limited. >Any evidence of supernatural phenomena then becomes >evidence of the existence of a meta-sim. > > > I don't think so. Merely evidence of undiscovered physics. I suspect that if we are living in a sim the nature of the world about us tells us a lot about the possible motives, or at least seriously contrains them. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From david at ideoware.com Mon Feb 21 22:56:08 2005 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:56:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] test Message-ID: <421A6708.7040007@ideoware.com> please ignore From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Feb 21 23:15:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <421A5E0E.9040609@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050221231541.83915.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> I suggest that such countries be made to take > these problems seriously. > >> Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs > within nations that fail > >> to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a > good way to start. > > > > Severing the digital nervous system of a country > to force compliance > > with foreign dictates is a clear act of war. What > a brilliant solution! > > It's clearly *not* an act of war, anymore than > refusing incoming > phonecalls from someone you don't like is an act of > war. Actually, these days it's analogous to blockading the ports of a country and refusing to let its ships sail. The country's ability to do business with the rest of the world is severely curtailed, which the country may take as an act of war. Unfortunately, in many of these cases, it's like blockading the coasts of a country that has at most a few fishing boats, no ports, and no merchant fleet. (Certain low-brow types might call this kind of "war", in the absence of any actual military conflict, a "cripple fight", characterized by ineffectual gestures both ways.) Especially if the main effect of the blockade is to stop people trying to smuggle in books and literature to educate the peasants and show them how to make their dictators irrelevant. From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:13:23 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:13:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050217151010.38890.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050217151010.38890.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421A7923.9020706@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Secondly, the whole concept of 'brain in a vat' or 'body in a pod' >participants is similarly infantile, but is all too common among SA >critics. This is the Matrix concept, that our reality is merely a set >of data streaming into minds that have a real existence in the root >universe that spawned this one. This is a rather peruile way of >conceiving such a simulated universe that falls significantly short of >the mark of the kind of technology required to simulate a universe such >as ours. > >Rather the sort of universe at a level of complexity that ours is >requires one of two possible methods of simulation: quantum computation >in pocket universes, aor quantum computation through matter ballistic >conversion in gravitational singularities. There may be other methods >to achieve this end, but it is certain that the computational needs of >a universe like ours to exist are far greater than can be done by the >sort of computational technology we are used to conceiving. > > > It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. That would require very little in the way of computational requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:15:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <421A7999.6000107@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > The BBC is showing a program tonight on cold fusion claims (of a > sort). If anyone here watches it, maybe they could report back? > No replication, and Taleyarkhan refused to work with one of the people involved. However, I'd say that it may well be that all collapsing bubbles are not equal and that symmetry is crucial. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:22:11 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:22:11 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <42154D0C.6010709@cox.net> References: <20050216024257.5871757EBA@finney.org> <4213F1B5.2050709@cox.net> <4213FF13.1010807@pobox.com> <42154D0C.6010709@cox.net> Message-ID: <421A7B33.5070602@neopax.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > With all of the above, I will continue to struggle toward the > Singularity, just as if my universe were real. When I reach the > Singularity, I will either transcend in my universe, or I will reach > the last level of the sim and finally see the "game over" screen, and > then I will know. Or you will have been judged unworthy to participate in the greater society and will be deleted. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:23:33 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:23:33 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050218115832.23974.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050218115832.23974.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421A7B85.7010704@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >All else being equal, we either live in a universe simulation, or it is >not possible to simulate whole universes. > > > Or we live in a sim *and* it is not possible to simulate an entire universe. Just the bit we live in. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:26:37 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:26:37 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <8d71341e050218105613ccc181@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <8d71341e050218105613ccc181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421A7C3D.3020705@neopax.com> Russell Wallace wrote: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:53:30 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>If the penalties for both were severe the problem would be vastly reduced. >>Spam is money motivated. Make it non-cost effective to both advertise via spam and to perform the actual spamming. Full confiscation of assets and lengthy jail time for a start. >> >>Redefine deliberate virus promulgation as terrorism and prosecute and punish accordingly. After a few life sentences (no parole) have been handed down I suspect the problem would fade significantly. >> >> > >A cartoon I read, long ago: > >A: "The bus is late again, damn it." >B: "Yeah, it's a nuisance isn't it?" >A: "What this country needs is a strong leader! Someone who can make >the buses run on time!!" >B: "...I think I'd rather wait for the bus." > > > A: "Hey! my car has been vandalised!" B: "Yeah, it's a nuisance isn't it?" A: "What this country needs is punishments like Singapore, where vandalism is almost non-existent" B: "... I think I'd rather not, because it's your car and I was the one that trashed it." -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:39:49 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:39:49 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <20050221231541.83915.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050221231541.83915.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421A7F55.90500@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>Samantha Atkins wrote: >> >> >>>>I suggest that such countries be made to take >>>> >>>> >>these problems seriously. >> >> >>>>Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs >>>> >>>> >>within nations that fail >> >> >>>>to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a >>>> >>>> >>good way to start. >> >> >>>Severing the digital nervous system of a country >>> >>> >>to force compliance >> >> >>>with foreign dictates is a clear act of war. What >>> >>> >>a brilliant solution! >> >>It's clearly *not* an act of war, anymore than >>refusing incoming >>phonecalls from someone you don't like is an act of >>war. >> >> > >Actually, these days it's analogous to blockading the >ports of a country and refusing to let its ships sail. >The country's ability to do business with the rest of >the world is severely curtailed, which the country may >take as an act of war. > > > Wrong. It is a refusal by the neighbours of the country to allow transit through their territory. Legal under international law. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 00:49:12 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:49:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421A7923.9020706@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only > the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. > That would require very little in the way of computational > requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to sim it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe going forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere repercussions in our astronomical observations. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 00:55:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:55:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421A82E4.1050404@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only >>the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. >>That would require very little in the way of computational >>requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. >> >> > >The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to sim >it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the >gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe going >forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it >were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere >repercussions in our astronomical observations. > > > Not at all. Faking all the astronomical observation we are presently making could be done now using existing computer tech. It's not an elegant soln, but it certainly cuts computational requirements by tens of orders of magnitude. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dgc at cox.net Tue Feb 22 01:39:08 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:39:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight In-Reply-To: <421A7999.6000107@neopax.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <421A7999.6000107@neopax.com> Message-ID: <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> Dirk Bruere wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > >> The BBC is showing a program tonight on cold fusion claims (of a >> sort). If anyone here watches it, maybe they could report back? >> > No replication, and Taleyarkhan refused to work with one of the people > involved. > However, I'd say that it may well be that all collapsing bubbles are > not equal and that symmetry is crucial. > I'm fairly skeptical of the Oak ridge sonofusion experiments, but I'm really distressed when they are linked to "cold fusion." There was never a viable theory for palladium-catalyzed "cold fusion." and the experimental setup was quite complex. Experiment showed an ambiguous excess energy production, difficult to reproduce, and fusion was then suggested as a possible reason. This is really bad science. By contrast, sonofusion has a very clear theoretical underpinning. Single-bubble sonoluminescence (SBSL) is easy to reproduce, and the glow of the bubble is most parsimoniously explained as thermal (or blackbody) radiation. From this hypothesis, we can make a simple calculation to show that IF the bubble gets hotter THEN fusion will occur. Great theoretical science, no voodoo required. The problem with the Oak Ridge experiment is that they chose to use a neutron source to nucleate the bubble. They also use neutron production as the indicator that fusion has occurred. Yes, the respective neutrons differ in energy and time, but extrordinary claims require extrordinary proofs, so I would really, really prefer to see an experiment with no neutron source anywhere near the experiment. From dgc at cox.net Tue Feb 22 03:12:41 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:12:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only >>the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. >>That would require very little in the way of computational >>requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. >> >> > >The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to sim >it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the >gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe going >forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it >were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere >repercussions in our astronomical observations. > > > What do you mean by "we", kimo sabe? If you believe you are in a sim, why do you think the sim includes anything but yourself and your perceptions? By what criteria can you distinguish between a sim that encapsulates just yourself, and a sim that includes any particular larger "universe"? For example, you mention "inertia," "gravitational influence," "other matter in the universe," and "astronomical observations." If you are the only object int he sim, then all of these concepts are amenable to direct manipulation. How can you select a point on the sim continuum? At one end of the continuum, The entire universe is being simulated. All of us are emergent consequences of the laws of the simulated universe. At the other end of the continuum, your current state is the only thing being simulated. it was constructed one microsecond ago, it embodies only the current microsecond of your existence, and it will terminate one microsecond from now. How do you choose? For myself, the question is intrinsically undecidable, and all points on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim hypothesis. I therefore choose to treat the simulation hypothesis as a non-starter, except as a basis for harassing fellow extropians. From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 03:35:37 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:35:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <20050222025627.92997.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050222025627.92997.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421AA889.3020502@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>>The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to >>> >>> >>sim >> >> >>>it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the >>>gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe >>> >>> >>going >> >> >>>forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it >>>were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere >>>repercussions in our astronomical observations. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Not at all. >>Faking all the astronomical observation we are presently making could >>be done now using existing computer tech. >>It's not an elegant soln, but it certainly cuts computational >>requirements by tens of orders of magnitude. >> >> > >It isn't just us as individuals making the observations. Sentient >beings are not the only observers, that is a Bohmian conceit. Every >atom that interacts with a photon is 'observing' it. The fact alone >that weather is as unpredictable as it is is evidence of that. > > The weather would be equally unpredictable if there were no levels below the molecular in the sim. In fact, all that has to be modelled is our intelligence and sensory input. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 03:44:18 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:44:18 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight In-Reply-To: <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <421A7999.6000107@neopax.com> <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> Message-ID: <421AAA92.4020300@neopax.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Dirk Bruere wrote: > >> Damien Broderick wrote: >> >>> The BBC is showing a program tonight on cold fusion claims (of a >>> sort). If anyone here watches it, maybe they could report back? >>> >> No replication, and Taleyarkhan refused to work with one of the >> people involved. >> However, I'd say that it may well be that all collapsing bubbles are >> not equal and that symmetry is crucial. >> > I'm fairly skeptical of the Oak ridge sonofusion experiments, but I'm > really distressed when they are linked to "cold fusion." There was > never a viable theory for palladium-catalyzed "cold fusion." and the > experimental setup was quite complex. Experiment showed an ambiguous > excess energy production, difficult to reproduce, and fusion was then > suggested as a possible reason. This is really bad science. > > By contrast, sonofusion has a very clear theoretical underpinning. > Single-bubble sonoluminescence (SBSL) is easy to reproduce, and the > glow of the bubble is most parsimoniously explained as thermal (or > blackbody) radiation. From this hypothesis, we can make a simple > calculation to show that IF the bubble gets hotter THEN fusion will > occur. Great theoretical science, no voodoo required. > > The problem with the Oak Ridge experiment is that they chose to use a > neutron source to nucleate the bubble. They also use neutron > production as the indicator that fusion has occurred. Yes, the > respective neutrons differ in energy and time, but extrordinary claims > require extrordinary proofs, so I would really, really prefer to see > an experiment with no neutron source anywhere near the experiment. > Maybe it could be done with a high intensity muon source. However, the Horizon expt was looking for neutron emission coincident with light with a resolution of around a nanosecond. They found none. I expect that if Taleyarkhan is really getting fusion then his apparatus is creating bubbles with much higher temps and pressures than other groups. This may very well be the case IMO. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 03:47:35 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:47:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight In-Reply-To: <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050222034735.27663.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > >> The BBC is showing a program tonight on cold fusion claims (of a > >> sort). If anyone here watches it, maybe they could report back? > >> > > No replication, and Taleyarkhan refused to work with one of the > people > > involved. > > However, I'd say that it may well be that all collapsing bubbles > are > > not equal and that symmetry is crucial. > > > I'm fairly skeptical of the Oak ridge sonofusion experiments, but I'm > really distressed when they are linked to "cold fusion." There was > never a viable theory for palladium-catalyzed "cold fusion." and the > experimental setup was quite complex. Experiment showed an ambiguous > excess energy production, difficult to reproduce, and fusion was then > suggested as a possible reason. This is really bad science. On the contrary, Dan, Navy researchers have clearly shown that in palladium elements from one manufacturer consistently and repeatedly produce sustained reactions of significant over-unity thermal emissions, as well as production of excess helium. Elements from other makers were spotty and unreliable. It thus seems to clearly be an issue for some R&D on nanomaterials manufacturing of these elements. There was a viable theory that Pons and Fleishman had put together back at the start, but being chemists, could never get physicists to recognise. Its like trying to get alchemists and witch doctors to give each other respect. > > By contrast, sonofusion has a very clear theoretical underpinning. > Single-bubble sonoluminescence (SBSL) is easy to reproduce, and the > glow of the bubble is most parsimoniously explained as thermal (or > blackbody) > radiation. From this hypothesis, we can make a simple calculation to > show that IF the bubble gets hotter THEN fusion will occur. Great > theoretical science, no voodoo required. Sure, but the only real distinction between that and palladium CF is like the difference between external and internal combustion engines. Until you figure out how to look inside the cylinder while it is firing, its purely a mystery. Any idiot can see how a coal fired steam engine works. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 22 03:53:15 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:53:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sonofusion tested on BBC tonight In-Reply-To: <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050217122124.0198c9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <421A7999.6000107@neopax.com> <421A8D3C.9080208@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050221214725.01d004a0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:39 PM 2/21/2005 -0500, Dan C. wrote: >The problem with the Oak Ridge experiment is that they chose to use a >neutron source to nucleate the bubble. They also use neutron production as >the indicator that fusion has occurred. Yes, the respective neutrons >differ in energy and time, but extrordinary claims require extrordinary >proofs, so I would really, really prefer to see an experiment with no >neutron source anywhere near the experiment. A high-powered physicist I know who takes this claim very seriously asserts that neutron production is a red herring; what counts as product is He4. The program also ran its experiment from published papers only; even a glancing acquaintance with the shared tacit knowledge required for lab replication shows that this is a recipe for wasting your time. (See classic case studies by Trevor Pinch and Harry Collins, for example.) Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 03:53:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050222035354.11844.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > >The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to > sim > >it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the > >gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe > going > >forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it > >were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere > >repercussions in our astronomical observations. > > > > > > > What do you mean by "we", kimo sabe? > > If you believe you are in a sim, why do you think the sim includes > anything but yourself and your perceptions? By what criteria can you > distinguish between a sim that encapsulates just yourself, and a sim > that includes any particular larger "universe"? If it just encapsulates me, then you are all simulacra anyway and it doesn't matter what I do to you. Only a simpleton would conceive a universe simulation like a brain in a vat. > > For example, you mention "inertia," "gravitational influence," "other > matter in the universe," and "astronomical observations." If you are > the only object in the sim, then all of these concepts are amenable > to direct manipulation. How can you select a point on the sim > continuum? If this sim is for my edification it has done a piss poor job of it. It is quite obvious to observers of my life that this sim wasn't meant for me, if it had such a simplistically solipsistic focus. > > At one end of the continuum, The entire universe is being simulated. > All of us are emergent consequences of the laws of the simulated > universe. > At the other end of the continuum, your current state is the only > thing > being simulated. it was constructed one microsecond ago, it embodies > only the current microsecond of your existence, and it will terminate > one microsecond from now. How do you choose? I choose the end that allows the greatest number of emergent consequences to result. Otherwise it's all just a one man circle jerk. > > For myself, the question is intrinsically undecidable, and all points > on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim > hypothesis. I therefore choose to treat the simulation hypothesis as > a non-starter, except as a basis for harassing fellow extropians. If they are sim emergent phenomena, and you aren't, they aren't your fellows. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 04:14:46 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:14:46 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> References: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> Message-ID: <421AB1B6.6030702@neopax.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >> >> >>> It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only >>> the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. >>> That would require very little in the way of computational >>> requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. >>> >> >> >> The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to sim >> it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the >> gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe going >> forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it >> were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere >> repercussions in our astronomical observations. >> >> >> > What do you mean by "we", kimo sabe? > > If you believe you are in a sim, why do you think the sim includes > anything but yourself and your perceptions? By what criteria can you > distinguish between a sim that encapsulates just yourself, and a sim > that includes any particular larger "universe"? > > For example, you mention "inertia," "gravitational influence," "other > matter in the universe," and "astronomical observations." If you are > the only object int he sim, then all of these concepts are amenable to > direct manipulation. How can you select a point on the sim continuum? > Even six billion intelligences being simulated, complete with coordinated sensory input data, doesn't sound very difficult compared to almost any other scenario. > At one end of the continuum, The entire universe is being simulated. > All of us are emergent consequences of the laws of the simulated > universe. At the other end of the continuum, your current state is the > only thing being simulated. it was constructed one microsecond ago, it > embodies only the current microsecond of your existence, and it will > terminate one microsecond from now. How do you choose? > > For myself, the question is intrinsically undecidable, and all points > on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim > hypothesis. I therefore choose to treat the simulation hypothesis as a > non-starter, except as a basis for harassing fellow extropians. It's an interesting possibility and should be borne in mind when we decide to behave badly because we think we can get away with it. God is watching! -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 04:15:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:15:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <4213F706.4040406@cox.net> References: <20050216204307.13016.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4213F706.4040406@cox.net> Message-ID: <421AB1EB.6040309@neopax.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > Thus, if a hypothesis is unproven, I'm still interested in the > argument. If the hypothesis is provably unfalsifiable to my > satisfaction, I'm no longer interested. You ought to be because real life political and religious systems can be built upon them. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 22 06:43:26 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:43:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050218120431.23587.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050217205732.028fdc38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050218120431.23587.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050221224149.028dd238@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> An unavoidable hazard is something for which there is no reasonable preventive and effective action. Too many to count. Car accidents, for example. At 04:04 AM 2/18/2005, you wrote: >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > Sorry there (not). I am talking about physical non simulated meat > > reality. > > Assuming only god gets to be god is your error..... > > > > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > > > > > > > If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! The > > > > whole > > > > POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better form of > > > > experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which evolved > > > > along with the meat. > > > > > >You are making the mistake of assuming that hazard to simulated meat > > >is the same as hazard to one's real meat. Only god gets to use > > >god-mode inhis simulation. > >Then perhaps you ought to detail what you mean by 'unavoidable hazards'... > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 22 06:55:31 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:55:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel (SA/SH) In-Reply-To: References: <200502121904.j1CJ45s23447@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050221225450.028e5460@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> A simi-conscious experience.... >Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel: > > There exists a small community of vastly advanced transhuman >entities. They tend to suffer from boredom. Their main mission, >their reason to "get out of bed in the morning" is to continue to >refine and test their theories as to their own origins: the origin >of each of their personal first and seminal characters or >personalities. Running simulations is one tool which they employ to >this end. Their only source of recreation and entertainment also >comes from running simulations ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 22 06:53:43 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:53:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Twenty Questions Twenty Questions -Theneural-net on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200502191819.j1JIJVh30416@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050219110017.0625f7e0@mail.popido.com> <200502191819.j1JIJVh30416@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050221225222.028f95e0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Um, a Turing Machine is a look up table and some memory on the tape. Equivalent to all computatable functions, etc... but it's not closer to > > passing the Turing test than say for example the Amazon suggestion > > database. Erik > >What we have learned is that the Turing test can be challenged >with nothing more sophisticated than a giant lookup table. >spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 07:17:11 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:17:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] India special: The next knowledge superpower Message-ID: <470a3c520502212317b60861a@mail.gmail.com> Very interesting article on the New Scientist on technical innovation and the future of India. THE first sign that something was up came about eight years back. Stories began to appear in the international media suggesting that India was "stealing" jobs from wealthy nations - not industrial jobs, like those that had migrated to south-east Asia, but the white-collar jobs of well-educated people. Today we know that the trickle of jobs turned into a flood. India is now the back office of many banks, a magnet for labour-intensive, often tedious programming, and the customer services voice of everything from British Airways to Microsoft. In reality, the changes in India have been more profound than this suggests. Over the past five years alone, more than 100 IT and science-based firms have located R&D labs in India. These are not drudge jobs: high-tech companies are coming to India to find innovators whose ideas will take the world by storm. Their recruits are young graduates, straight from India's universities and elite technology institutes, or expats who are streaming back because they see India as the place to be - better than Europe and the US. The knowledge revolution has begun. http://www.newscientist.com/special/india/mg18524876.800 From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 07:22:21 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:22:21 +0100 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <8d71341e050218105613ccc181@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <8d71341e050218105613ccc181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205022123227ae1eda0@mail.gmail.com> THIS IS GREAT! > A cartoon I read, long ago: > > A: "The bus is late again, damn it." > B: "Yeah, it's a nuisance isn't it?" > A: "What this country needs is a strong leader! Someone who can make > the buses run on time!!" > B: "...I think I'd rather wait for the bus." > > - Russell From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 08:39:51 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:39:51 -0800 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <421A5E0E.9040609@neopax.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> <7fb20747c739585c983693e8864af597@mac.com> <421A5E0E.9040609@neopax.com> Message-ID: <948b11e0502220039f073b72@mail.gmail.com> Aren't you forgetting that the same line carries a lot of other crucal traffic besides spam, often through the same ISPs even? Why say countries if you don't mean to block countries? On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:17:50 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >> I suggest that such countries be made to take these problems seriously. > >> Mandatory blocking of net traffic from ISPs within nations that fail > >> to implement effective anti-spam laws might be a good way to start. > > > > > > Severing the digital nervous system of a country to force compliance > > with foreign dictates is a clear act of war. What a brilliant solution! > > It's clearly *not* an act of war, anymore than refusing incoming > phonecalls from someone you don't like is an act of war. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 13:17:58 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:17:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic silence In-Reply-To: <200502191807.j1JI7Ah28725@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050222131758.65831.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: Spike, I tried to privately email you a response to your message to me, but yahoo doesn't seem to be recognising comcast.net as a valid server. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 14:51:27 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050221224149.028dd238@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222145127.51410.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Car accidents WHERE? Here or in a metareality? If this is a simulation, what does it matter to you? People who don't like the risks inherent in life in this universe tend to be excessively solipsistic in thinking the universe was meant for them personally and are pissed off at reality whenever it proves that this is not quite so. Reality bites. Get over it. --- Hara Ra wrote: > An unavoidable hazard is something for which there is no reasonable > preventive and effective action. Too many to count. Car accidents, > for example. > > At 04:04 AM 2/18/2005, you wrote: > > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > > > Sorry there (not). I am talking about physical non simulated meat > > > reality. > > > Assuming only god gets to be god is your error..... > > > > > > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > If this is an upload or simulation, fie on the maker therof! > The > > > > > whole > > > > > POINT of uploading, etc, is to provide access to a better > form of > > > > > experience without many of the unavoidable hazards which > evolved > > > > > along with the meat. > > > > > > > >You are making the mistake of assuming that hazard to simulated > meat > > > >is the same as hazard to one's real meat. Only god gets to use > > > >god-mode inhis simulation. > > > >Then perhaps you ought to detail what you mean by 'unavoidable > hazards'... > > > >===== > >Mike Lorrey > > ================================== > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = Alcor North Cryomanagement = > = Alcor Advisor to Board = > = In Case of Emergency = > = First Call Andrea at = > = 831 458 2925 = > = Then Call me at = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================== > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 22 16:43:56 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:43:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration" Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050222104106.01d12cb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/02/21/bush.science.ap/index.html Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration Monday, February 21, 2005 Posted: 2:46 PM EST (1946 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- The voice of science is being stifled in the Bush administration, with fewer scientists heard in policy discussions and money for research and advanced training being cut, according to panelists at a national science meeting. Speakers at the national meeting of the American Association for Advancement of Science expressed concern Sunday that some scientists in key federal agencies are being ignored or even pressured to change study conclusions that don't support policy positions. The speakers also said that Bush's proposed 2005 federal budget is slashing spending for basic research and reducing investments in education designed to produce the nation's future scientists. And there also was concern that increased restrictions and requirements for obtaining visas is diminishing the flow to the U.S. of foreign-born science students who have long been a major part of the American research community. Rosina Bierbaum, dean of the University of Michigan School of Natural Resources and Environment, said the Bush administration has cut scientists out of some of the policy-making processes, particularly on environmental issues. "In previous administrations, scientists were always at the table when regulations were being developed," she said. "Science never had the last voice, but it had a voice." Issues on global warming, for instance, that achieved a firm scientific consensus in earlier years are now being questioned by Bush policy makers. Proven, widely accepted research is being ignored or disputed, she said. Government policy papers issued prior to the Bush years moved beyond questioning the validity of global warming science and addressed ways of confronting or dealing with climate change. Under Bush, said Bierbaum, the questioning of the proven science has become more important than finding ways to cope with climate change. One result of such actions, said Neal Lane of Rice University, a former director of the National Science Foundation, is that "we don't really have a policy right now to deal with what everybody agrees is a serious problem." Among scientists, said Lane, "there is quite a consensus in place that the Earth is warming and that humans are responsible for a considerable part of that" through the burning of fossil fuels. And the science is clear, he said, that without action to control fossil fuel use, the warming will get worse and there will be climate events that "our species has not experienced before." Asked for comment, White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said, "The president makes policy decisions based on what the best policies for the country are, not politics. People who suggest otherwise are ill-informed." Kurt Gottfried of Cornell University and the Union of Concerned Scientists said a survey of scientists in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service found that about 42 percent said they felt pressured to not report publicly any findings that do not agree with Bush policies on endangered species. He said almost a third of the Fish and Wildlife researchers said they were even pressured not to express within the agency any views in conflict with the Bush policies. "This administration has distanced itself from scientific information," said Gottfried. He said this is part of a larger effort to let politics dominate pure science. He said scientists in the Environmental Protection Agency have been pressured to change their research to keep it consistent with the Bush political position on environmental issues. Because of such actions, he said, it has become more difficult for federal agencies to attract and retain top scientific talent. This becomes a critical issue, said Gottfried, because about 35 percent of EPA scientists will retire soon and the Bush administration can "mold the staff" of the agency through the hiring process. Federal spending for research and development is significantly reduced under the proposed 2005 Bush budget, the speakers said. "Overall the R&D budget is bad news," said Bierbaum. She said the National Science Foundation funds for graduate students and for kindergarten through high school education has been slashed. NASA has gotten a budget boost, but most of the new money will be going to the space shuttle, space station and Bush's plan to explore the moon and Mars. What is suffering is the space agency's scientific research efforts, she said. "Moon and Mars is basically going to eat everybody's lunch," she said. Lane said Bush's moon and Mars exploration effort has not excited the public and has no clear goals or plans. He said Bush's moon-Mars initiative "was poorly carried out and the budget is not there to do the job so science (at NASA) will really get hurt." Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. [oops] From dirk at neopax.com Tue Feb 22 17:52:10 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:52:10 +0000 Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <948b11e0502220039f073b72@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050211160402.12301.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <420CE30A.5000909@neopax.com> <20050211180647.GL1404@leitl.org> <420CFC94.2090102@neopax.com> <7fb20747c739585c983693e8864af597@mac.com> <421A5E0E.9040609@neopax.com> <948b11e0502220039f073b72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421B714A.9030106@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Aren't you forgetting that the same line carries a lot of other crucal > traffic besides spam, often through the same ISPs even? Why say >countries if you don't mean to block countries? > > > As I said before, something like what I proposed happened a few years ago when Asia was a big promoter of spam. I (and presumably lots of other people and companies) set their filters to automatically delete everything from HK, Taiwan and Korea. It got to the point where the govts there decided it was beginning to hurt their legitimate businesses and the amount of spam from those places plumetted. I don't recall receiving any declaration of war from Taiwan. All I am proposing is a more formal and regulated response along similar lines. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 18:21:59 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: AnarchoCyphertopian technologies (wasRE: [extropy-chat] Reccommendations for a mailing list) In-Reply-To: <421B714A.9030106@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050222182159.91764.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Besides, Samantha, wouldn't you call having your mailbox filled every day with a deluge of spam to be an act of war? --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > >Aren't you forgetting that the same line carries a lot of other > crucal > > traffic besides spam, often through the same ISPs even? Why say > >countries if you don't mean to block countries? > > > > > > > As I said before, something like what I proposed happened a few years > > ago when Asia was a big promoter of spam. > I (and presumably lots of other people and companies) set their > filters > to automatically delete everything from HK, Taiwan and Korea. > It got to the point where the govts there decided it was beginning to > > hurt their legitimate businesses and the amount of spam from those > places plumetted. > > I don't recall receiving any declaration of war from Taiwan. > All I am proposing is a more formal and regulated response along > similar > lines. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Tue Feb 22 18:55:24 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:55:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden Message-ID: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). Amara From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Feb 22 19:36:47 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:36:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: Thank you for sending this, it's quite nice. :) Be Well. Regards, MB On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Amara Graps wrote: > http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm > > This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded > to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). From megao at sasktel.net Tue Feb 22 20:27:41 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:27:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"- alternatives? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050222104106.01d12cb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050222104106.01d12cb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <421B95BD.4020308@sasktel.net> An extropian viewpoint: Let Bush push advanced biotech out of America. The far east will be the beneficiary, fine by me; they are less averse to using these technologies anyway so why bother with the USA ... they can play now or pay later. If the Moon/mars/Titan etc is Bush's objective push cryogenic preserved astronauts shot from place to place Via massdriver in automated payload delivery cubicles, caught by reverse mass driver "catcher's mits", and revived at the destination VS slow cumbersome, expensive spacecraft for meatware. That would make space travel much cheaper from an energy- fuel standpoint and a whole lot faster. That way the military pays to perfect commercialization and mass marketetable cryo storage and reanimation technologies. Morris Damien Broderick wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/02/21/bush.science.ap/index.html > > > Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration > > > Monday, February 21, 2005 Posted: 2:46 PM EST (1946 GMT) > > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- The voice of science is being stifled in the Bush > administration, with fewer scientists heard in policy discussions and > money for research and advanced training being cut, according to > panelists at a national science meeting. > > Speakers at the national meeting of the American Association for > Advancement of Science expressed concern Sunday that some scientists > in key federal agencies are being ignored or even pressured to change > study conclusions that don't support policy positions. > > The speakers also said that Bush's proposed 2005 federal budget is > slashing spending for basic research and reducing investments in > education designed to produce the nation's future scientists. > > And there also was concern that increased restrictions and > requirements for obtaining visas is diminishing the flow to the U.S. > of foreign-born science students who have long been a major part of > the American research community. > > Rosina Bierbaum, dean of the University of Michigan School of Natural > Resources and Environment, said the Bush administration has cut > scientists out of some of the policy-making processes, particularly on > environmental issues. > > "In previous administrations, scientists were always at the table when > regulations were being developed," she said. "Science never had the > last voice, but it had a voice." > > Issues on global warming, for instance, that achieved a firm > scientific consensus in earlier years are now being questioned by Bush > policy makers. Proven, widely accepted research is being ignored or > disputed, she said. > > Government policy papers issued prior to the Bush years moved beyond > questioning the validity of global warming science and addressed ways > of confronting or dealing with climate change. > > Under Bush, said Bierbaum, the questioning of the proven science has > become more important than finding ways to cope with climate change. > > One result of such actions, said Neal Lane of Rice University, a > former director of the National Science Foundation, is that "we don't > really have a policy right now to deal with what everybody agrees is a > serious problem." > > Among scientists, said Lane, "there is quite a consensus in place that > the Earth is warming and that humans are responsible for a > considerable part of that" through the burning of fossil fuels. > > And the science is clear, he said, that without action to control > fossil fuel use, the warming will get worse and there will be climate > events that "our species has not experienced before." > > Asked for comment, White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said, "The > president makes policy decisions based on what the best policies for > the country are, not politics. People who suggest otherwise are > ill-informed." > > Kurt Gottfried of Cornell University and the Union of Concerned > Scientists said a survey of scientists in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife > Service found that about 42 percent said they felt pressured to not > report publicly any findings that do not agree with Bush policies on > endangered species. > > He said almost a third of the Fish and Wildlife researchers said they > were even pressured not to express within the agency any views in > conflict with the Bush policies. > > "This administration has distanced itself from scientific > information," said Gottfried. He said this is part of a larger effort > to let politics dominate pure science. > > He said scientists in the Environmental Protection Agency have been > pressured to change their research to keep it consistent with the Bush > political position on environmental issues. > > Because of such actions, he said, it has become more difficult for > federal agencies to attract and retain top scientific talent. This > becomes a critical issue, said Gottfried, because about 35 percent of > EPA scientists will retire soon and the Bush administration can "mold > the staff" of the agency through the hiring process. > > Federal spending for research and development is significantly reduced > under the proposed 2005 Bush budget, the speakers said. > > "Overall the R&D budget is bad news," said Bierbaum. > > She said the National Science Foundation funds for graduate students > and for kindergarten through high school education has been slashed. > > NASA has gotten a budget boost, but most of the new money will be > going to the space shuttle, space station and Bush's plan to explore > the moon and Mars. What is suffering is the space agency's scientific > research efforts, she said. > > "Moon and Mars is basically going to eat everybody's lunch," she said. > > Lane said Bush's moon and Mars exploration effort has not excited the > public and has no clear goals or plans. > > He said Bush's moon-Mars initiative "was poorly carried out and the > budget is not there to do the job so science (at NASA) will really get > hurt." > > > Copyright 2005 The > Associated > Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, > broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. [oops] > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Tue Feb 22 21:03:05 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:03:05 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> References: <20050222004912.71002.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <421AA329.4030407@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502221803.05793.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Our life is a series of microsecond events, that is not dependent on whether this is or not a simulated universe... our existence is composed of micro existences. Series of continuum events Diego (Log At) Em Ter?a 22 Fevereiro 2005 00:12, Dan Clemmensen escreveu: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > >>It could be done by a superficial sim at the molecular level for only > >>the parts of the universe that we can observe at the molecular level. > >>That would require very little in the way of computational > >>requirements compared to a Planck level sim of an entire universe. > > > >The entanglement problem doesn't let you work that way. You have to sim > >it all. Inertia alone is proof of that, being caused by the > >gravitational influence of all the other matter in the universe going > >forward in time then back to the moment you push on a mass... If it > >were merely some code faking inertia, there would be servere > >repercussions in our astronomical observations. > > What do you mean by "we", kimo sabe? > > If you believe you are in a sim, why do you think the sim includes > anything but yourself and your perceptions? By what criteria can you > distinguish between a sim that encapsulates just yourself, and a sim > that includes any particular larger "universe"? > > For example, you mention "inertia," "gravitational influence," "other > matter in the universe," and "astronomical observations." If you are the > only object int he sim, then all of these concepts are amenable to > direct manipulation. How can you select a point on the sim continuum? > > At one end of the continuum, The entire universe is being simulated. All > of us are emergent consequences of the laws of the simulated universe. > At the other end of the continuum, your current state is the only thing > being simulated. it was constructed one microsecond ago, it embodies > only the current microsecond of your existence, and it will terminate > one microsecond from now. How do you choose? > > For myself, the question is intrinsically undecidable, and all points on > the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim > hypothesis. I therefore choose to treat the simulation hypothesis as a > non-starter, except as a basis for harassing fellow extropians. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From benboc at lineone.net Tue Feb 22 21:46:25 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:46:25 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <200502221710.j1MHAbh12216@tick.javien.com> References: <200502221710.j1MHAbh12216@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421BA831.7070807@lineone.net> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > If you believe you are in a sim, why do you think the sim includes anything but yourself and your perceptions? By what criteria can you distinguish between a sim that encapsulates just yourself, and a sim that includes any particular larger "universe"? > For example, you mention "inertia," "gravitational influence," "other matter in the universe," and "astronomical observations." If you are the only object int he sim, then all of these concepts are amenable to direct manipulation. How can you select a point on the sim continuum? > At one end of the continuum, The entire universe is being simulated. All of us are emergent consequences of the laws of the simulated universe. At the other end of the continuum, your current state is the only thing being simulated. it was constructed one microsecond ago, it embodies only the current microsecond of your existence, and it will terminate one microsecond from now. How do you choose?>For myself, the question is intrinsically undecidable, and all points on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim hypothesis. I therefore choose to treat the simulation hypothesis as a non-starter, except as a basis for harassing fellow extropians. Dan, i believe you have just won the simulation argument! ben From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Tue Feb 22 22:09:33 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:09:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hunter S. Thompson Message-ID: <20050222220730.M70150@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> A thoughtful commentary on Hunter S. Thompson http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110006325 From aperick at centurytel.net Tue Feb 22 23:16:19 2005 From: aperick at centurytel.net (Rick) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:16:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <421BA831.7070807@lineone.net> Message-ID: <000001c51934$88606660$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> -----Original Message----- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > all points on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the no-sim hypothesis. I concede no victory here. Dan's assertion *could* certainly be true. And, in most cases, if you see anything truly strange happen that would lend itself to supporting the sim hypothesis you could just as easily choose instead to doubt your own sanity or some such. But I still allow for the possibility of an analysis of my life's recollections causing me to lean toward suspecting simulation. Today I am assigning the probability of rick as sim only 49.5% And, being a scientist type guy, that number will always be subject to evidence and argument. From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 23 00:07:40 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:07:40 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <421BC94C.7070506@neopax.com> Amara Graps wrote: >http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm > >This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded >to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). > > > Am I the only one who thinks Zen gardens are overrated? Presumably a true Zen garden would be a grey featureless plain stretching to infinity. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 23 00:08:42 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:08:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Analyzing the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <000001c51934$88606660$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> References: <000001c51934$88606660$0200a8c0@ricksoyo> Message-ID: <421BC98A.308@neopax.com> Rick wrote: >-----Original Message----- >Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > > >>all points on the simulation continuum are indistinguishable from the >> >> >no-sim hypothesis. > >I concede no victory here. > >Dan's assertion *could* certainly be true. And, in most cases, if you see >anything truly strange happen that would lend itself to supporting the sim >hypothesis you could just as easily choose instead to doubt your own sanity >or some such. But I still allow for the possibility of an analysis of my > > Especially as it would almost certainly be non-reproducible. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 00:41:41 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:41:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Where have you been? In-Reply-To: <20050222220730.M70150@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050223004141.73667.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> spike wrote: >> Thanks for the kind greeting spike! Yeah, I've >> been off list for several years, apart from >> popping in once in '01 to post a link to my >> caloric-restriction report... > >Been there, read that, liked it. Thanks spike. I really need to update that report since so much has been published since I wrote it, virtually all favorable toward the hypothesis that CR will do for humans what it does for animals. I've not had the time over the last few years to add much content my site, other than some redesigning. > Your title "Eat Less-Live More" reminds me of high > school. We were weighing in for boxing (I was > never a serious boxer, but I had fun with it). 125 > pounds is the dividing line between the > featherweights and the lightweights. I could knock > the bony little blocks off of all the feathers. > But the lightweights, those beefy 130 pound brutes, > well, they would have killed me for sure. So I > made certain I stayed in the featherweights, the > division I would still be in today, 28 years > later. Amazing! Few people maintain their teenage weight thereafter. Before I started doing CR I'd been steadily gaining weight along with my peers. It wasn't till after I shed that post-teen excess that I suddenly noticed how fat everyone's else has been getting, with few exceptions. http://iangoddard.net/cr.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 23 01:21:53 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"- alternatives? In-Reply-To: <421B95BD.4020308@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050223012153.54943.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > If the Moon/mars/Titan etc is Bush's objective push > cryogenic preserved > astronauts shot from place to place Via massdriver > in automated > payload delivery cubicles, caught by reverse mass > driver "catcher's > mits", and revived at the destination VS slow > cumbersome, expensive > spacecraft for meatware. > > That would make space travel much cheaper from an > energy- fuel > standpoint and a whole lot faster. > > That way the military pays to perfect > commercialization and mass > marketetable cryo storage and reanimation > technologies. Nice idea, if there was a method of cryo-reanimation close enough to reality today (as in, can be fully prototyped in a lab in the next four years) for the military to fund the development of. That criteria seems to rule out nano-robots of any kind, but there do not appear to be any other ideas on the table. Titan is not Bush's stated objective, but the Moon and Mars are. Cryo is not needed for the Moon, but it might be useful for Mars. Cryo that only provides useful suspension of living beings over a few months (i.e., slow down metabolism until they're in hibernation) might not be the same thing as cryo over decades until we can revive the preserved dead, but it's a start. From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Wed Feb 23 01:53:34 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:53:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <421BC94C.7070506@neopax.com> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <421BC94C.7070506@neopax.com> Message-ID: <421BE21E.8000008@humanenhancement.com> Dirk Bruere wrote: > Am I the only one who thinks Zen gardens are overrated? Nope. Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta From moulton at moulton.com Wed Feb 23 07:29:49 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:29:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Amara Thanks for the passing this along. I liked it. Fred On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 19:55 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm > > This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded > to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). > > Amara > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Wed Feb 23 09:01:00 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:01:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration" Message-ID: <20050223085740.M76794@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com : >http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/02/21/bush.science.ap/ This is the third or fourth major report (each coming from a different technology-related or education-related group of people) on these topics, published in the last couple years. The Bush Administration doesn't care, Damien. To everyone else (who I encounter in my work), the information in this report is common knowledge. This situation is beyond sad or tragic. Amara From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Feb 23 12:18:54 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:18:54 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"-alternatives? References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050222104106.01d12cb0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <421B95BD.4020308@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <011801c519a1$d7c44380$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Shorter trips would be preferable (IMHO). Why not finally build those nuclear propelled spaceships? chemical rockets are crap. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." To: "ExI chat list" ; "Morris Johnson" ; "RANDY WICK" ; "Lana Tatarliov" Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"-alternatives? > If the Moon/mars/Titan etc is Bush's objective push cryogenic preserved > astronauts shot from place to place Via massdriver in automated > payload delivery cubicles, caught by reverse mass driver "catcher's > mits", and revived at the destination VS slow cumbersome, expensive > spacecraft for meatware. > That would make space travel much cheaper from an energy- fuel > standpoint and a whole lot faster. From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 23 16:32:10 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:32:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <421BC94C.7070506@neopax.com> Message-ID: <003e01c519c5$39a5b520$0100a8c0@kevin> Way overrated. I think the bigger question is why Amara is having such a difficult time finding things to smile about. Amara, life is both beautiful and ugly. When you find yourself feeling like this, you have been spending far too much time looking at the ugly. Take some time out and look at the beauty and try not to think about the ugly for a bit. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden > Amara Graps wrote: > > >http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm > > > >This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded > >to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). > > > > > > > Am I the only one who thinks Zen gardens are overrated? > Presumably a true Zen garden would be a grey featureless plain > stretching to infinity. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 23 16:42:10 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:42:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Human Area Networking? Message-ID: <009a01c519c6$9f1f3a10$0100a8c0@kevin> This is cool. http://www.redtacton.com/en/index.html Imagine transferring images from your camera to computer by simply touching the two at the same time. :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Feb 23 16:41:24 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:41:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dark Matter Galaxy Discovered Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0291121B@amazemail2.amazeent.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4288633.stm Also reported on Slashdot. Astronomers say they have discovered an object that appears to be an invisible galaxy made almost entirely of dark matter. Comments? -- Acy James Stapp / The Fizz Factor / Software Artificer Work 512-477-3499#249 / Cell 512-825-0966 / ICQ 12629994 It's getting deep. Shovel toward the exits. From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 23 18:23:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:23:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Human Area Networking? In-Reply-To: <009a01c519c6$9f1f3a10$0100a8c0@kevin> References: <009a01c519c6$9f1f3a10$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <421CCA19.7080500@neopax.com> kevinfreels.com wrote: > This is cool. > http://www.redtacton.com/en/index.html > > > > Imagine transferring images from your camera to computer by simply > touching the two at the same time. :-) > > > An idea that was explored at least 15yrs ago. It amazes me how 'great breakthrough' headlines so often are simply the product of an ignorance of tech history. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 18:48:09 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:48:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dark Matter Galaxy Discovered In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0291121B@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <20050223184809.37040.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Acy James Stapp wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4288633.stm > > Also reported on Slashdot. > > Astronomers say they have discovered > an object that appears to be an invisible > galaxy made almost entirely of dark matter. > > Comments? "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...." ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 19:02:24 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Synthetic Learning Update In-Reply-To: <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050223190224.37542.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> From: NewScientist.com Software learns to translate by reading up Translation software that develops an understanding of languages by scanning through thousands of previously translated documents has been released by US researchers. [...] "Before long a machine will discover something about linguistics that only a machine could, by crunching through billions of words." Full: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7054 Machine learns games 'like a human' A computer that learns to play a 'scissors, paper, stone' by observing and mimicking human players could lead to machines that automatically learn how to spot an intruder or perform vital maintenance work, say UK researchers. [...] "A system that can observe events in an unknown scenario, learn and participate just as a child would is almost the Holy Grail of AI," says Derek Magee from the University of Leeds. "We may not have solved this challenge quite yet, but we think we've made a small dent." Full: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6914 ~Ian __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 20:35:54 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:35:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dark Matter Galaxy Discovered In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0291121B@amazemail2.amazeent.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0291121B@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <948b11e050223123528fcc8dd@mail.gmail.com> Since dark matter has mass it isn't too surprising if a galaxy sized clump of it with little/no conventional matter is somewhere out there. I make no pretense of actually understanding dark matter however. - samantha On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:41:24 -0800, Acy James Stapp wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4288633.stm > > Also reported on Slashdot. > > Astronomers say they have discovered > an object that appears to be an invisible > galaxy made almost entirely of dark matter. > > Comments? > > -- > Acy James Stapp / The Fizz Factor / Software Artificer > Work 512-477-3499#249 / Cell 512-825-0966 / ICQ 12629994 > > It's getting deep. Shovel toward the exits. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Feb 23 21:19:19 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:19:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"-alternatives? In-Reply-To: <011801c519a1$d7c44380$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20050223211919.35129.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > Shorter trips would be preferable (IMHO). Why not > finally build those nuclear propelled spaceships? > chemical rockets are crap. Design and build a nuclear rocket that, even if it explodes during liftoff (while airborne but not at orbital speeds), will not scatter radioactivity all over the ground (or, at least, the nuclear components that reach the ground will contain their radioactive material enough that they will be safe to approach and, maybe after a few hours or so to cool down, handle). Do that, and perhaps stage some public demonstrations by blowing up small scale versions of it then wandering around the debris field with a geiger counter, and you might be able to overcome the public fear that keeps nuclear rockets from deployment. (Maybe a modification of the new pebble bed reactors?) From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 21:54:17 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:54:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] artificial spinal disc In-Reply-To: <20050223213417.64763.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223215417.886.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In October 2004 the FDA approved a cobalt-chrome disc, manufactured by Depuy Spine, Inc., of Raynham, Massachusetts, for patients with degenerative disc disease. The three-piece device has a sliding medical-grade plastic core sandwiched between two metal plates, which allows the spine to move. Patients must have pursued nonsurgical treatment for at least six months to be eligible for this surgery. Dr. Jeffrey Goldstein, a spine surgeon at New York University Hospital for Joint Diseases, has inserted a few dozen of a similar device, the ProDisc implant, manufactured by Spine Solutions of New York, into patients as part of a clinical trial. Goldstein thinks artificial discs will give patients more mobility than fusion surgery. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Feb 23 21:59:25 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:59:25 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration"-alternatives? In-Reply-To: <20050223211919.35129.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050223211919.35129.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421CFCBD.7020307@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Henrique Moraes Machado >wrote: > > >>Shorter trips would be preferable (IMHO). Why not >>finally build those nuclear propelled spaceships? >>chemical rockets are crap. >> >> > >Design and build a nuclear rocket that, even if it >explodes during liftoff (while airborne but not at >orbital speeds), will not scatter radioactivity all >over the ground (or, at least, the nuclear components >that reach the ground will contain their radioactive >material enough that they will be safe to approach >and, maybe after a few hours or so to cool down, >handle). Do that, and perhaps stage some public >demonstrations by blowing up small scale versions of >it then wandering around the debris field with a >geiger counter, and you might be able to overcome the >public fear that keeps nuclear rockets from >deployment. (Maybe a modification of the new pebble >bed reactors?) >_______________________________________________ > > Not going to happen until we can use a fusion drive, most likely inertial confinement in a mag field. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 22:48:00 2005 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dark Matter Galaxy Discovered In-Reply-To: <948b11e050223123528fcc8dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050223224800.51683.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Since dark matter has mass it isn't too surprising > if a galaxy sized > clump of it with little/no conventional matter is > somewhere out > there. I make no pretense of actually > understanding dark matter > however. My understanding was that dark matter does not "clump" because it cannot radiate away its potential/kinetic energy. This is why it is thought to form a diffuse "halo" around galaxies and cause the tips of the spiral arms of a galaxy to spin faster than they should. So based upon this condensed dark matter galaxy, I would say *nobody* really understands dark matter and for the time being it's all speculative hand waving. I wonder what Amara thinks? ===== The Avantguardian "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." -Bill Watterson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 01:01:21 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:01:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Where have you been? Message-ID: <20050224010121.85882.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Dan Clemmensen wrote: >Hi Ian! Glad to hear from you! > >I just posted a response to your comment in which I >included a lot of philosophical claptrap, just as if >I knew what I was talking about, BEFORE reading your >post quoted above. > >Please feel free to make actual informed comments >on my previous post. My last formal exposure to >philosophy was when I audited a course at the >University of Tennessee in 1969. Your comments on Occam's razor sound right and in the direction of quantify Occam's razor as more than a principle of aesthetics. Along that line I believe a (if not the) purpose of scientific theories is to create a reliable efficient model of the real world with which we can run real-world simulations that allow us to plan our next moves in the real world. If we have a theory/model X+P and we eliminate P and by itself X is exactly as effective a model as when conjoined with P, then P does not demonstrate that its inclusion is necessary for creating a model of the world. Moreover, there may therefore be no reason to believe P represents a feature of the world. In that way Occam's razor is not so much a merely aesthetic principle as it is an inherent part of the art of the scientific rendering of the world (ie, the art of sculpting an accurate model of the world). http://iangoddard.net Inductive inference underlies all empirical thought: "All inferences from experience suppose, as their foundation, that the future will resemble the past, and that similar powers will be conjoined with similar sensible qualities. If there be any suspicion, that the course of nature may change, and that the past may be no rule for the future, all experience becomes useless, and can give rise to no inference or conclusion." David Hume __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Feb 24 01:48:28 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:48:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Self-Termination - Assisted and Otherwise Message-ID: <004601c51a12$f03202b0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Hunter S. Thompson "assisted" himself: http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/02/23/thompson.death.ap/index.html Thompson's dilemma and solution reminded me of something that happened in my family decades ago in San Francisco, when I was a young girl. A relative of mine (he was, in fact, the relative who picked my own family up at SF International Airport when we arrived to the United States) who had been in Czar Nicholas II's army before the Russian Revolution - was diagnosed with myasthenia gravis in 1963-64. Being the proud, upstanding monarchist White Russian that he was, and before he became so incapacitated that the option would no longer be his, he planned his own death very carefully. Before he left for the lovely, secluded spot in Golden Gate Park where he was eventually found with a gunshot wound to his temple ... he left his medals and a vase of forget-me-nots on the mantel at his house. Related to this subject, you may have read Michael Medved's rantings about "Million Dollar Baby" v. his wonderful-movie-of-choice "Passion of Christ." What's wrong with this picture? Why, one would think (aah, but then *there's* the rub) it would be so obvious that the subject of both movies is in fact about the same thing (short and succint reply posted below link is my husband's): http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0508/050223_news_letters.php Christ's Assisted Suicide? I was bemused to read of Michael Medved's complaints regarding the ending of Million Dollar Baby while he also bemoaned the lack of accolades for The Passion of the Christ ["Million Dollar Brouhaha," Feb. 16]. Has it occurred to Medved that the subject of Mel Gibson's movie is itself nothing more than a highly elaborate assisted suicide? Patrick Inniss Seattle From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Feb 24 02:34:32 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:34:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Charmed. Although it was a not so zen a moment when I could not get the rake to stop, but then perhaps that is what Dirk was looking for. :-) Which begs the question: Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you as well? Natasha At 01:29 AM 2/23/2005, you wrote: >Amara > >Thanks for the passing this along. I liked it. > >Fred > >On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 19:55 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > http://www.cea2.mdx.ac.uk/lceaSite/gallery/zengarden/index.htm > > > > This Zen garden is a charming web software that succeeded > > to make me smile (an almost impossible task these days). > > > > Amara > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 02:53:09 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:53:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cannabis vs Alzheimer's Message-ID: <20050224025309.93620.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Given the anticholinergic property of THC one might not imagine cannabis would be a potential source of anti-Alzheimer's therapeutics (its anticholinergic effect probably underlies the impression that cannabis makes its users stupid); but given the emerging data that cannabionoids (including THC) are neuroprotective, these data are not too shocking: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/8/1904 The Journal of Neuroscience, February 23, 2005. Prevention of Alzheimer's Disease Pathology by Cannabinoids: Neuroprotection Mediated by Blockade of Microglial Activation [authors and affiliations cut for brevity, see link] Alzheimer's disease (AD) is characterized by enhanced [beta]-amyloid peptide ([beta]A) deposition along with glial activation in senile plaques, selective neuronal loss, and cognitive deficits. Cannabinoids are neuroprotective agents against excitotoxicity in vitro and acute brain damage in vivo. This background prompted us to study the localization, expression, and function of cannabinoid receptors in AD and the possible protective role of cannabinoids after [beta]A treatment, both in vivo and in vitro. Here, we show that senile plaques in AD patients express cannabinoid receptors CB1 and CB2, together with markers of microglial activation, and that CB1-positive neurons, present in high numbers in control cases, are greatly reduced in areas of microglial activation. In pharmacological experiments, we found that G-protein coupling and CB1 receptor protein expression are markedly decreased in AD brains. Additionally, in AD brains, protein nitration is increased, and, more specifically, CB1 and CB2 proteins show enhanced nitration. Intracerebroventricular administration of the synthetic cannabinoid WIN55,212-2 to rats prevent [beta]A-induced microglial activation, cognitive impairment, and loss of neuronal markers. Cannabinoids (HU-210, WIN55,212-2, and JWH-133) block [beta]A-induced activation of cultured microglial cells, as judged by mitochondrial activity, cell morphology, and tumor necrosis factor- release; these effects are independent of the antioxidant action of cannabinoid compounds and are also exerted by a CB2-selective agonist. Moreover, cannabinoids abrogate microglia-mediated neurotoxicity after [beta]A addition to rat cortical cocultures. Our results indicate that cannabinoid receptors are important in the pathology of AD and that cannabinoids succeed in preventing the neurodegenerative process occurring in the disease. **************************************************** Pop press report on the same study: Marijuana may block Alzheimer's http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4286435.stm **************************************************** Previous related studies: J Neurochem 2004: Neuroprotective effect of cannabidiol, a non-psychoactive component from Cannabis sativa, on beta-amyloid-induced toxicity in PC12 cells. PubMed ID: 15030397 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15030397 Neurosci Lett 2002: Anandamide and noladin ether prevent neurotoxicity of the human amyloid-beta peptide. PubMed ID: 12384227 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12384227 See also: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1817/a02.html?107 http://iangoddard.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dirk at neopax.com Thu Feb 24 03:11:11 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:11:11 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <421D45CF.9050607@neopax.com> Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Charmed. Although it was a not so zen a moment when I could not get > the rake to stop, but then perhaps that is what Dirk was looking for. :-) > Not really. I could equally have referred to the Ryoanji temple garden which is probably the most famous Zen garden of all, and which I have also visited. > Which begs the question: Is zen a personal experience that each one > of us appreciates differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for > me is zen for you as well? > Zen is the Diamond Sutra. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/diamondsutra.htm -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 24 05:18:11 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:18:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you as well? Natasha Ah, my child, only when you discover true enlightenment, zen you will know. spike (zen master Bay tour guide, koan writer) (Come on, lets get out of this two year funk and have a good old fashioned extropian pun barf, just like in the old days, smile and have some fun with all these brains evolution has so kindly provided us. Honestly, we cannot stop the war by being serious all the time.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 24 05:56:59 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:56:59 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:18 PM 2/23/2005 -0800, Spike wrote: >spike (zen master Bay tour guide, koan writer) > > >(Come on, lets get out of this two year funk and have a good >old fashioned extropian pun barf Sure. Get koan, while the koan's good. Damien Broderick [he who barfs last barfs loudest] From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 24 06:21:47 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:21:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] politics (light hearted) more cow jokes, new ones In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502240622.j1O6Lwh07479@tick.javien.com> A few old ones here, but many new cow jokes. Politics Explained so even I understand them! DEMOCRATIC You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. Barbara Streisand sings for you. REPUBLICANISM You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So? SOCIALIST You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor. You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow. COMMUNIST You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk. You wait in line for hours to get it. It is expensive and sour. CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows. BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. Under the new farm program the government pays you to shoot one, milk the other, and then pours the milk down the drain. AMERICAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one. You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when one cow drops dead. You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses. Your stock goes up. FRENCH CORPORATION You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows. You go to lunch and drink wine. Life is good. JAPANESE CORPORATION You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains. Most are at the top of their class at cow school. GERMAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour. Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year. ITALIAN CORPORATION You have two cows but you don't know where they are. While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman. You break for lunch. Life is good. RUSSIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You have some vodka. You count them and learn you have five cows. You have some more vodka. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have. TALIBAN CORPORATION You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two. You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature' private parts. You get a $40 million grant from the US government to find alternatives to milk production but use the money to buy weapons. IRAQI CORPORATION You have two cows. They go into hiding. They send radio tapes of their mooing. POLISH CORPORATION You have two bulls. Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them. BELGIAN CORPORATION You have one cow. The cow is schizophrenic. Sometimes the cow thinks he's French, other times he's Flemish. The Flemish cow won't share with the French cow. The French cow wants control of the Flemish cow's milk. The cow asks permission to be cut in half. The cow dies happy. FLORIDA CORPORATION You have a black cow and a brown cow. Everyone votes for the best looking one. Some of the people who actually like the brown one best accidentally vote for the black one. Some people vote for both. Some people vote for neither. Some people can't figure out how to vote at all. Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which one you think is the best-looking cow. CALIFORNIA CORPORATION You have millions of cows. They make real California cheese Only five speak English. Most are illegals. Arnold likes the ones with the big udders.. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 24 06:25:10 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:25:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502240625.j1O6PLh07851@tick.javien.com> Damien Broderick > > Sure. Get koan, while the koan's good. > > Damien Broderick > [he who barfs last barfs loudest] I thought you would say: when the koan gets tough the tough get koan. But the truth is more simple, my son, for the tough are not really koan anywhere. It is your mind that it koan. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 07:29:46 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:29:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] NYT: Virtual Girlfriend Message-ID: <470a3c5205022323295a52d872@mail.gmail.com> NYT: Men, are you tired of the time, trouble and expense of having a girlfriend? Irritated by the difficulty of finding a new one? Eberhard Sch?neburg, the chief executive of the software maker Artificial Life Inc. of Hong Kong, may have found the answer: a virtual girlfriend named Vivienne who goes wherever you go. Vivienne likes to be taken to movies and bars. She loves to be given virtual flowers and chocolates, and she can translate six languages if you travel overseas. She never undresses, although she has some skimpy outfits for the gym, and is a tease who draws the line at anything beyond blowing kisses. Vivienne, the product of computerized voice synthesis, streaming video and text messages, is meant not only to bring business to Artificial Life (she will be available for a monthly fee of $6, not including the airtime costs paid to cellphone operators or the price of virtual chocolates and flowers). But she is also meant to be a lure for the new, higher-tech, third generation, or 3G, cellphones. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/24/technology/24girlfriend.html From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Thu Feb 24 11:51:06 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Lynn Graps) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:51:06 -0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Dark matter galaxy discovered Message-ID: <200502241051.06430.Amara.Graps@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> I wrote this to Robert and Damien one year ago in answers to some questions they had. Dark matter is about as far from my astronomy field as is string theory (in which I am still ignorant), so I cannot really answer detailed questions, especially since I am too sleep-deprived to be coherent. Let's start with Krauss' table, in order to distinguish between kinds of dark matter: ================================================================= CONTENTS of the UNIVERSE Type Likely Composition Main Evidence Omega Contrib ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Visible Ordinary matter (protons, telescopic 0.01 Matter neutrons) that forms observations stars, dust and gas Baryonic Ordinary matter that is Big Bang 0.05 Dark too dim to see (brown or nucleosynthesis Matter black dwarfs, massive and observed compact halo objects: deuterium abundance MACHOS) Nonbaryonic Very light "exotic" Gravity of visible 0.3 Dark Matter particles such as matter is insuffi- axions, neutrinos w/mass cient to account or weakly interacting for orbital speeds massive particles: within galaxies WIMPS and galaxies within clusters Cosmological Cosmological Constant Microwave back- 0.? Dark Energy (energy of empty space) ground suggests cosmos is flat but there is not enough baryonic/nonbaryonic matter to make it so. from [1] ================================================================ Re: the long-running debate that galaxies rotate too fast for the matter that is observed in them, and that they should have flung themselves apart. It is an old story. In 1932, Oort found evidence for extra matter within our galaxy, and then one year later Zwicky inferred a large density of matter within clusters of galaxies. [2] The conceptual idea is to look at the motions of various kinds of astronomical objects, and assess whether the visible material is sufficient to provide the inferred gravitational force. If it is not, the excess attraction must be due to extra invisible material. Since the 1970s there has been a discrepancy between the observed rotational velocities of stars in the outer regions of spiral galaxies and the orbit velocities that one would expect according to Newton's Laws from the distribution of visible stars in the galaxy. This discrepancy indicates that there should be much more matter in the outer parts of the spiral galaxies. [3] In particular, mass is widely distributed in a galaxy, so then the rotation rates of gas and stars should increase with distance from the center until most of the galaxy's mass is inside their orbit, then slow further out. From Kepler: 2 v G M(R) ---- = ------ R 2 R G M(R) v = sqrt(------) R At large distances, enclosing most of the visible part of the galaxy, we expect that the rotational velocity to drop off as the square root of R. It doesn't. Instead, galactic rotation rates never drop, the velocity stays roughly constant. This is evidence that unseen matter well beyond the visible disk controls the stars' velocities. The figure that people seem to like that clearly shows this is the rotation curve for spiral galaxy NGC 3198, in an article published by Albada and Sancisi, 1986. Re: the suggestion that gravity from massive black holes may be holding things together. Two problems with that: 1) If you mean black holes in the center, like those found in the centers of a number of galaxies - No, because the unseen mass must be at, or outside, of the galactic disk edges to influence the motion of the visible objects in the outer edge of the disk. Astronomers think that the unseen mass is distributed in a gigantic sphere or ellipsoid ("halos of dark matter") around the spiral galaxy disk. 2) black holes are the wrong kind of 'matter'. Before the 1980s, the dark matter was thought to be of the baryonic kind, but now cosmologists don't think that because the massive object must lack detectable radiation, yet possess enough mass to have an observed effect on the galactic rotation. Low mass stars or black holes cannot be accounted for in large enough numbers. This leaves the possibilities: exotic fundamental particles: axions, neutrinos, photinos?, magnetic monopoles?.... Most of these are so-far-undetected particles coming from theories in particle physics. For example, the supersymmetry model describes a symmetry between fermions (particles with half-integer spin) and bosons (particles with integer spin), where every boson has a fermionic partner called a superpartner and vice versa: squarks for quarks and photoinos for photons, etc.. And the axion is a very light particle that is postulated to solve a puzzle associated with charge and parity symmetry. In Liddle's book (pg. 69-70), he mentions MACHOs as a candidate to solve this problem, and they were apparently detected with microlensing experiments of stars in the Large Magellanic Cloud. [4] However, even though MACHOs seem to be present, they appear to have insufficient density to completely explain the galactic halo, and that the best hope is if the dark matter particles interact not only gravitationally, but also through the weak nuclear force (hence the name Weakly Interacting Massive Particle or WIMP), the reason being that a only-gravitation-interacting particle provides too tiny a force (the gravitational force of an individual particle with say a proton mass is minuscule). Supersymmetric particles in particular are thought to be potentially detectable if they indeed make up dark matter. Re: The evidence pointing to galaxy clusters having more matter than is observed. Analogous halos to those around individual galaxies are thought to keep clusters of galaxies bound together. [5] Groupings of galaxies account for almost all visible matter. [1, page 36] Most of their luminous content takes the form of hot intergalactic gas, which emits x-rays. Re: If there consensus on how much of the dark matter is within galaxies vs. between galaxies within clusters? I don't know if there is a consensus, because I'm not in this field (cosmology) to know all of the discussions and players, but I'll tell you what I read. In Krauss' article [1], he described some studies of galaxies by Simon White at (MPA, Garching), where White and his colleagues compiled information about several different clusters, to argue that luminous matter accounted for between 10 and 20 percent of the total mass of the objects. When combined with the measurements of deuterium, these results imply that the total density of clustered matter -- including protons and neutrons as well as more exotic particles such as certain nonbaryonic dark matter candidates -- is at most 60 percent of that required to flatten the universe. So then either the universe is open, or it is made flat by some additional form of energy that is not associated with ordinary matter. Another set of information, from the simulation theorists, show a slow growth of the number of rich galaxy clusters over the recent history of the universe, suggesting that the density of matter is less than 50 percent of that required for a flat universe. [See "The Evolution of Galaxy Clusters," by J. Patrick Henry, Ulrich G. Briel and Hans Boehringer, Scientific American, December 1998.] Note that when one talks about clusters of galaxies (and clusters of clusters), then you enter the cosmological realm of structures in the universe, and how those structures evolve (gravitational instability), inflation theory, enlargement of quantum fluctuations to macroscopic size, the COBE data and the CMB, general relativity, the curvature of space, acceleration and deceleration, dark energy, etc. "Matter tells spacetime how to curve, and spacetime tells matter how to move." (John A. Wheeler). Here is a final table from Krauss' article (pg. 39) that you might find interesting: ====================================================================== SUMMARY OF INFERRED VALUES OF COSMIC MATTER DENSITY Measurements of the contribution to Omega from matter are in rough concordance. Most astronomers now accept that matter alone cannot make Omega equal to 1 (*). But other forms of energy, such as the cosmological constant, may also pitch in. Observation Omega_matter Age of universe <1 Density of protons and neutrons 0.3 - 0.6 Galaxy clustering 0.3 - 0.4 Galaxy evolution 0.3 - 0.5 Cosmic microwave background radiation <=1 Supernovae Type Ia 0.2-0.5 (*) Omega = 1 is predicted by inflation, which is equivalent to: k = 0 (space is flat), n = 1.0 +/- 0.2 (the primordial lump spectrum from satellites such as COBE). [2/99 Sky&Tel, pg. 38] ====================================================================== References [1] "Cosmological Antigravity" by Lawrence M. Krauss in Scientific American, Special Edition: The Once and Future Cosmos, Volume 12, Number 2, 2002, pg. 33. [2] Liddle, Andrew, _An Introduction to Modern Cosmology_, 1999, Wiley, pg. 62-3. [3] Hawking, Stephen, _The Universe in a Nutshell_ Bantam, 2001, pg. 186-7. [4] K.H. Cook et al Phys Rev Lett April 10, 1995. [5] "The Life Cycle of Galaxies" by Guinevere Kauffann and Frank van den Bosch in Scientific American, Special Edition: The Once and Future Cosmos, Volume 12, Number 2, 2002, pg 16. -- ********************************************************************* Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, CNR - ARTOV, Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA tel: +39-06-4993-4375 fax: +39-06-4993-4383 Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/dustgroup/~graps/ ********************************************************************** "We came whirling out of Nothingness scattering stars like dust." --Rumi From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 13:11:27 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:11:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] politics (light hearted) more cow jokes, new ones In-Reply-To: <200502240622.j1O6Lwh07479@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050224131127.11799.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: ORWELL's COWS You have 100 cows and 2 pigs The Farm Animals Rise Up Against the Farmer The pigs pronounce that some animals are more equal than others and take charge. Ten cows form the Free Cow Project and move to New Hampshire The rest make excuses for staying while they wait to be slaughtered by the pigs for being un-pigly, and insufficient milk production. ASTRONOMICAL COWS The Farmer has ten cows. Enough hay gets eaten for 100 cows. The Farmer forms the theory of Invisible Dark Matter Cows. Some are MACHO bulls, others are WIMPy cows. The rest he still can't figure out. The Cosmological Constant Tax Agency doesn't care about his theories, and swallows his farm in a black hole of bureaucratic red tape, water use studies, neighbor complaints about loss of vegetation, and property tax bills. RAELIAN COWS Aliens Landed Once, See And engineered Cows from Auroxes Now cows need to be genetically engineered, artificially inseminated, and cloned so all the best cows can be transported to the mother ship when our alien overlords return, to be turned into burgers at Elvis' Burger Barn on Proxima 7. HOLLYWOOD COWS A formerly black, white cow named Michael Is put on trial for touching the udders of calves One calf gets hay for life, another was faking it, and everybody comments that Michael's field is built to attract jail-bait. Another cow named Michael makes a film about how it's all that pig Bush's fault. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Feb 24 13:11:25 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:11:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050224070656.0324b228@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I'm glad you z'rocked my point. You see, it worked for Carrie (Zex and the Zity) when she prefaces her TV show with a one-or two-liner question in that all too perplexing and intent on figuring it out way ... "Is .... or is ....?" My yen is to be zen - Zentasha At 11:18 PM 2/23/2005, you wrote: >Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates differently, >or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you as well? Natasha > > >Ah, my child, only when you discover true enlightenment, zen you will know. > > >spike (zen master Bay tour guide, koan writer) > > >(Come on, lets get out of this two year funk and have a good >old fashioned extropian pun barf, just like in the old days, smile and >have some fun with all these brains evolution has so kindly provided us. >Honestly, we cannot stop the war by being serious all the time.) > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 13:16:49 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <200502240625.j1O6PLh07851@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050224131649.79746.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Damien Broderick > > > > Sure. Get koan, while the koan's good. > > > > Damien Broderick > > [he who barfs last barfs loudest] > > I thought you would say: when the koan gets tough > the tough get koan. But the truth is more simple, > my son, for the tough are not really koan anywhere. > It is your mind that it koan. The Tao, my friend, is koan in the wind. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Feb 24 14:33:43 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:33:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> References: <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421DE5C7.4000404@jefallbright.net> spike wrote: > Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates > differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you > as well? Natasha > > > > > > Ah, my child, only when you discover true enlightenment, zen you will > know. > > > > > > spike (zen master Bay tour guide, koan writer) > > > > > > (Come on, lets get out of this two year funk and have a good > > old fashioned extropian pun barf, just like in the old days, smile and > > have some fun with all these brains evolution has so kindly provided us. > > Honestly, we cannot stop the war by being serious all the time.) > > > The list moves onward. That was zen, but this is now. Time to get koan. - Jef From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 14:46:09 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] speaking of udders... In-Reply-To: <20050224131127.11799.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050224144610.81316.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Didn't Michael's sister show an udder at Superbowl ' 04? Mike Lorrey wrote: A formerly black, white cow named Michael Is put on trial for touching the udders of calves One calf gets hay for life, another was faking it, and everybody comments that Michael's field is built to attract jail-bait. . ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hemm at openlink.com.br Thu Feb 24 15:16:18 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:16:18 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bushadministration"-alternatives? References: <20050223211919.35129.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021b01c51a83$ca4d51f0$fe00a8c0@HEMM> That's the beauty. The nuclear spaceship would be launched not from ground but from orbit. It would have to be too massive to be launched from ground anyway. Then we first need the space elevators to assemble the ships in orbit. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bushadministration"-alternatives? > --- Henrique Moraes Machado > wrote: > > Shorter trips would be preferable (IMHO). Why not > > finally build those nuclear propelled spaceships? > > chemical rockets are crap. > > Design and build a nuclear rocket that, even if it > explodes during liftoff (while airborne but not at > orbital speeds), will not scatter radioactivity all > over the ground (or, at least, the nuclear components > that reach the ground will contain their radioactive > material enough that they will be safe to approach > and, maybe after a few hours or so to cool down, > handle). Do that, and perhaps stage some public > demonstrations by blowing up small scale versions of > it then wandering around the debris field with a > geiger counter, and you might be able to overcome the > public fear that keeps nuclear rockets from > deployment. (Maybe a modification of the new pebble > bed reactors?) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 15:35:47 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:35:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] NYT: Virtual Girlfriend In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205022323295a52d872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050224153547.74735.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Talk about the worst features: she talks a lot, doesn't put out, burns craters in your phone bill, knows more about your bank account than you do, can locate you by GPS anywhere in the world, and has your cell phone number. Why don't they just build a taser into the 3G phone so I can self-administer the shocks to make it a thoroughly torturous experience? --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > NYT: Men, are you tired of the time, trouble and expense of having a > girlfriend? Irritated by the difficulty of finding a new one? > Eberhard Sch?neburg, the chief executive of the software maker > Artificial Life Inc. of Hong Kong, may have found the answer: a > virtual girlfriend named Vivienne who goes wherever you go. > Vivienne likes to be taken to movies and bars. She loves to be given > virtual flowers and chocolates, and she can translate six languages > if > you travel overseas. She never undresses, although she has some > skimpy > outfits for the gym, and is a tease who draws the line at anything > beyond blowing kisses. > Vivienne, the product of computerized voice synthesis, streaming > video > and text messages, is meant not only to bring business to Artificial > Life (she will be available for a monthly fee of $6, not including > the > airtime costs paid to cellphone operators or the price of virtual > chocolates and flowers). But she is also meant to be a lure for the > new, higher-tech, third generation, or 3G, cellphones. > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/24/technology/24girlfriend.html > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From hal at finney.org Thu Feb 24 16:14:26 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:14:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Dark matter galaxy discovered Message-ID: <20050224161426.08DA057EBA@finney.org> Speaking of dark energy (which is distinct from dark matter), the AAAS meeting last week had a panel about it, described at http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/uoc-sma021405.php . Two "exotic" theories were discussed. One is that string theory can predict many different possible values for dark energy. We have to invoke the anthropic principle, which essentially says that we live in a multiverse where different regions have different laws of physics. Only in those regions where the dark energy allows for the universe to last long enough, without recollapsing or tearing apart, can life evolve. Hence we see that dark energy has the value it does. Another one says that there is no dark energy at all. It is an illusion. Actually, in this model, gravity itself gets weaker at large distances than Einsteinian (or Newtonian) theory would predict. This gives the illusion of a repulsive force which counteracts the pull of gravity, that we interpret as dark energy. Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 16:22:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bushadministration"-alternatives? In-Reply-To: <021b01c51a83$ca4d51f0$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20050224162207.62802.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Orion baby, yeah! A half dozen hiroshima nukes = one aircraft carrier in orbit --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > > That's the beauty. The nuclear spaceship would be launched not from > ground but from orbit. It would have to be too massive to be launched > from ground anyway. > Then we first need the space elevators to assemble the ships in > orbit. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Tymes" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by > Bushadministration"-alternatives? > > > > --- Henrique Moraes Machado > > wrote: > > > Shorter trips would be preferable (IMHO). Why not > > > finally build those nuclear propelled spaceships? > > > chemical rockets are crap. > > > > Design and build a nuclear rocket that, even if it > > explodes during liftoff (while airborne but not at > > orbital speeds), will not scatter radioactivity all > > over the ground (or, at least, the nuclear components > > that reach the ground will contain their radioactive > > material enough that they will be safe to approach > > and, maybe after a few hours or so to cool down, > > handle). Do that, and perhaps stage some public > > demonstrations by blowing up small scale versions of > > it then wandering around the debris field with a > > geiger counter, and you might be able to overcome the > > public fear that keeps nuclear rockets from > > deployment. (Maybe a modification of the new pebble > > bed reactors?) > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 24 17:12:53 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:12:53 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com><200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002f01c51a94$13bb4850$17bc1b97@administxl09yj> http://phototravels.net/japan/pcd3860/rock-garden-tofukuji-5.html 'crop' circles in Tofuku-ji, Kyoto From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 24 17:21:13 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:21:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dark Matter Galaxy Discovered References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0291121B@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <004901c51a95$3df9af70$17bc1b97@administxl09yj> From: "Acy James Stapp" > Comments? http://www.physicsweb.org/articles/news/9/2/14/1 "It's gettin' dark, too dark to see" - Bob Dylan, 'Knockin' On Heaven's Door' From max at maxmore.com Thu Feb 24 17:32:42 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:32:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224112433.04d5d540@pop-server.austin.rr.com> You will realize that the world is nothing but illusion and simulation when you reach a state of Zen. Just follow the rabbit trail of the great Zen master, koan-u Reeves. If the way is hard, don't give up. Samadi you will achieve Zen. If you fail, do not curse. Do not say "Buddha me!" Max P.S. Masters of Zen writing are sometimes known as "koanilinguists". _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 24 18:40:23 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:40:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224112433.04d5d540@pop-server.austin.rr.co m> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200502240518.j1O5IWh00357@tick.javien.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050223235414.01c9e940@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050224112433.04d5d540@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050224123923.01dc6368@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:32 AM 2/24/2005 -0600, Max wrote: >Just follow the rabbit trail of the great Zen master, koan-u Reeves. Sorry, that's just a made-up satori. Damien Broderick From dgc at cox.net Thu Feb 24 19:03:09 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:03:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] speaking of udders... In-Reply-To: <20050224144610.81316.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050224144610.81316.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421E24ED.30700@cox.net> Ned Late wrote: > Didn't Michael's sister show an udder at Superbowl ' 04? > > Udderly tasteless. From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 25 00:32:00 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:32:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "Scientists feel stifled by Bushadministration"-alternatives? In-Reply-To: <021b01c51a83$ca4d51f0$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20050225003200.94294.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > That's the beauty. The nuclear spaceship would be > launched not from ground but from orbit. Irrelevant. The problem is, how to get the refined nuclear material into space? > It would > have to be too massive to be launched from ground > anyway. Maybe not in one go, but use nuclear-powered launchers to send up components of the nuclear-powered spaceship and assemble in orbit. Just because you have nuclear power doesn't mean you have to have only one vehicle. > Then we first need the space elevators to assemble > the ships in orbit. That would solve the problem, however, how would one build such a thing? NASA has proven itself incompetent to manage large space development projects, and no other space organization - not even the ESA and other NASA-equivalents - seems to have the funding. --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Not going to happen until we can use a fusion drive, > most likely > inertial confinement in a mag field. Intertial confinement and magnetic fields are two different approaches to fusion containment, although they can complement each other. Problem is, neither one seems able to confine fusion for more than a few seconds (at the extreme) in any experiment that's been done to date. (The sun doesn't count: that's gravitic confinement, not inertial or magnetic.) I wonder...just how blast-proof can nuclear pebbles be made? Can they be made to contain their radiation (if not their heat) even after being subjected to the forces of a rocket explosion, fall from many kilometers, and impact? From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 25 01:03:03 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:03:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <421D45CF.9050607@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > Which begs the question: Is zen a personal > experience that each one > > of us appreciates differently, or is it assumed > that what is zen for > > me is zen for you as well? Life is not just a bunch of if-zen statements. ;) > Zen is the Diamond Sutra. > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/diamondsutra.htm Ne...contains statements that could be misinterpreted. For instance: > Subhuti, do you think that the space in the Eastern > Quarter can be measured?" > > "No, World-Honored One." ...when clearly, space can be (and has been) measured. But then, this seems to be the nature of most (all?) such fables. From dirk at neopax.com Fri Feb 25 01:47:37 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:47:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >>Zen is the Diamond Sutra. >>http://www.buddhistinformation.com/diamondsutra.htm >> >> > >Ne...contains statements that could be misinterpreted. >For instance: > > > >>Subhuti, do you think that the space in the Eastern >>Quarter can be measured?" >> >>"No, World-Honored One." >> >> > >...when clearly, space can be (and has been) measured. >But then, this seems to be the nature of most (all?) >such fables. > > > And the value changes with each measurement. But that's not the point. Natasha's question: "Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you as well?" would have been considered a sublime joke had it not been meant seriously. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005 From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Feb 25 03:12:50 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:12:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation References: <20050224025309.93620.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c51ae7$e9d38c10$1db71218@Nano> I've got a new animation: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/revival.htm The index: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Enjoy! Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 25 03:45:40 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:45:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] speaking of udders... In-Reply-To: <421E24ED.30700@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502250346.j1P3jph10761@tick.javien.com> > > Didn't Michael's sister show an udder at Superbowl ' 04? > > > > > Udderly tasteless. Yes, isn'tit? Quite offensive, if mammory serves correctly. spike From kevin at kevinfreels.com Fri Feb 25 04:17:40 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:17:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] speaking of udders... References: <200502250346.j1P3jph10761@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <006f01c51af0$f2901810$0100a8c0@kevin> Good thing we didn't have to see the udder one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:45 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] speaking of udders... > > > > Didn't Michael's sister show an udder at Superbowl ' 04? > > > > > > > > Udderly tasteless. > > Yes, isn'tit? Quite offensive, if mammory serves > correctly. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 25 07:17:57 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:17:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224112433.04d5d540@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> > Max More > Subject: Zen punfest > > Max > > P.S. Masters of Zen writing are sometimes known as "koanilinguists". Waaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaa! Koanilinguists. Max, jataka long time to think of that one? Or perhaps it just kamma to you instantly. When you make wordplay like this, upaya viriya high price, but I suppose that when you make a punya might as well make it a good one. {8^D spike From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 09:46:18 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:46:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] their zen counterparts In-Reply-To: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050225094618.76832.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> fellow travelers are known as "fellowatrixes" > > P.S. Masters of Zen writing are sometimes known as > "koanilinguists". __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 10:09:11 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:09:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Inside the future Message-ID: <470a3c52050225020936109ee4@mail.gmail.com> Very interesting article on The Age on Ian Pearson, the futurist-in-residence at British Telecom's research labs, one of the most hallowed halls of deep research in the world. Pearson endorses conscious AI and uploading as forthcoming developments: Pearson says that within a generation, we will grow computers from biological cultures that are faster than those we today construct in silicon, gold and plastic. "We're looking at the idea of making conscious computers, and it's possible any time after 2015 that we could have computers as smart as human beings," he says. "That has a major impact for mankind, whatever way you sum it up." With the merger of information technology and biology comes the possibility that we will merge our minds with machines, says the British futurist. Education will be a doddle because we will have intimate access to the world's information or any of our gadgetry in a nanosecond. And if "you have a back-up of your brain on the computer, you don't die," he says. http://theage.com.au/articles/2005/02/14/1108229893543.html?oneclick=true From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Feb 25 13:15:53 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:15:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> References: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> <421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050225071215.032f2190@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Got zen? Well, if you think like Dirk, you just might: >Natasha's question: "Is zen a personal experience that each one of us appreciates differently, or is it >assumed that what is zen for me is zen for you as well?" would have been considered a sublime joke had it >not been meant seriously. Zen on! Thank you Dirk. Natasha From max at maxmore.com Fri Feb 25 16:49:25 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:49:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224112433.04d5d540@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225104612.054368a8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> spike -- "Koanilinguists" came to my lips easily. Some puns are difficult, but I found it easy to lick this one. I didn't have to labia hard at all. Max At 01:17 AM 2/25/2005, spike wrote: > > Max More > > Subject: Zen punfest > > > > Max > > > > P.S. Masters of Zen writing are sometimes known as "koanilinguists". > > >Waaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaa! Koanilinguists. > >Max, jataka long time to think of that one? Or perhaps >it just kamma to you instantly. From benboc at lineone.net Fri Feb 25 18:56:20 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:56:20 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream In-Reply-To: <200502241643.j1OGhTh06007@tick.javien.com> References: <200502241643.j1OGhTh06007@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> Something that Ian Goddard said triggered a thought related to the simulation argument. Everybody seems to assume that the simulation argument relates to someone/s/thing/s deliberately doing some kind of experiment, but if you think about it, any intelligent mind constantly creates models of the world as a sort of background task, in order to help it make sense of what happens/happened/will or might happen. A sufficiently powerful mind might well make these models in such fine detail that they could count as full-blown simulations. These are the sort of things that happen in our subconscious, even (maybe especially) when we dream. Maybe we are just some super-powerful mind's random dream, and will disappear without trace in the morning. ben From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 19:30:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream In-Reply-To: <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20050225193031.64464.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- ben wrote: > > Maybe we are just some super-powerful mind's random dream, and will > disappear without trace in the morning. This is a) overly solipsistic, and relies on the idea that creatures could evolve elsewhere naturally with superintelligence, which is contradicted by Yudkowskian arguments, and b) underestimating to the extreme the amount of computation required to simulate a universe. I would refer you to recent published papers on computing with black holes as a start. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Feb 25 20:43:23 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:43:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream In-Reply-To: <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20050225204323.97952.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- ben wrote: > Maybe we are just some super-powerful mind's random > dream, and will > disappear without trace in the morning. Am I a man dreaming I am a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming I am a man? And does it matter, in terms of what things I must do, whether this is a dream or reality? It behaves the same either way. From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 21:58:28 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:58:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen punfest In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225104612.054368a8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050225215828.27929.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alright, 'fellowtrixes' is a flaccid pun, however I did at least try to rise to the challenge. Max More wrote: spike -- "Koanilinguists" came to my lips easily. Some puns are difficult, but I found it easy to lick this one. I didn't have to labia hard at all. Max At 01:17 AM 2/25/2005, spike wrote: > > Max More > > Subject: Zen punfest > > > > Max > > > > P.S. Masters of Zen writing are sometimes known as "koanilinguists". > > >Waaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaa! Koanilinguists. > >Max, jataka long time to think of that one? Or perhaps >it just kamma to you instantly. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 22:01:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:01:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aegis 3rd generation missile: BMD system In-Reply-To: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What is really awesome is we can forward deploy these puppies on cruisers and destroyers. Japan is buying some, so I can see them maybe joining into NORAD at some point. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050224/neth026_1.html Raytheon Standard Missile-3 Intercepts Target in Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System Test Thursday February 24, 6:07 pm ET PACIFIC MISSILE RANGE FACILITY, KAUAI, Hawaii, Feb. 24, 2005 /PRNewswire/ -- The Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) Weapon System and Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) destroyed a ballistic missile outside the earth's atmosphere during an Aegis BMD Program flight test over the Pacific Ocean. Raytheon Company develops the SM-3. Lockheed Martin develops the Aegis BMD Weapon System. The Feb. 24 mission -- the fifth successful intercept for SM-3 -- was the first firing of the Aegis BMD "Emergency Deployment" capability using operational versions of the SM-3 Block I missile and Aegis BMD Weapon System. This was also the first test to exercise SM-3's third stage rocket motor (TSRM) single-pulse mode. The TSRM has two pulses, which can be ignited independently, providing expansion of the ballistic missile engagement battlespace. The SM-3 was launched from the Aegis BMD cruiser USS Lake Erie (CG 70) and hit a target missile that had been launched from the U.S. Navy's Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai, Hawaii. "This successful flight test demonstrates the tactical, operational capability of SM-3 and the Aegis BMD Weapon System in real-world conditions," said Edward Miyashiro, Raytheon Missile Systems vice president, Naval Weapon Systems. "Successes like we've seen today provide decision makers the confidence to proceed with deploying in quantity, providing the Nation with a robust capability that will defend the U.S., deployed American forces, our friends and our allies. Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense is for real." Japan has made decision to procure Aegis BMD with SM-3 for its Kongo class ships. Raytheon's Missile Systems business in Tucson, Ariz., is developing SM-3 and leads the integrated team effort, which includes Alliant Techsystems, Aerojet, and The Boeing Company, which are providing major subsystems. Lockheed Martin developed the Aegis BMD Weapon System. Raytheon delivered five SM-3 operational rounds to the Missile Defense Agency in 2004. The program is transitioning to production, with Kinetic Warhead seeker and final integration occurring in Raytheon's state-of-the-art Kill Vehicle manufacturing facility, alongside the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle. Final assembly and test will occur in Camden, Ark. Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN - News), with 2004 sales of $20.2 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide. Note to Editors: Raytheon's hit-to-kill successes with the sea-based STANDARD Missile-3 occurred on Jan. 25, June 13 and Nov. 21, 2002, and Dec. 11, 2003; and with the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle, part of the Ground-based Missile Defense program on Oct. 2, 1999; July 13 and Dec. 3, 2001; and March 15 and Oct. 14, 2002. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 25 22:19:54 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:19:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument: introverted AI In-Reply-To: <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> Message-ID: <200502252220.j1PMKBh03052@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of ben > Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream > > Something that Ian Goddard said triggered a thought related to the > simulation argument... > Maybe we are just some super-powerful mind's random dream, and will > disappear without trace in the morning... ben We tend to always think of an emergent AI as this software super-being that springs forth somehow and uploads us whether we like it or not, or if it isn't friendly it goes forth doing evil, etc. But let us consider all possible scenarios. We might somehow create an AI that is not so ambitious as we are. It might be very introverted. Consider a simulated being that simply goes to it's simulated room and ponders ways to simulate a being like itself on its simulated computer. It might set as a goal to create an AI that wishes to create an AI that wishes to do likewise, and so on all the way down. If we could do that, then we might gain insight into whether we are on top or somewhere down in that stack of turtles. spike ps: Is there a term for this notion? If not, I name it the Introverted AI or IAI. (Is that too close to SIAI? Is SIAI still around?) The IAI doesn't want to break out and upload everything in sight. It wants to break in: its greatest ambition is to find out if it is simulated or real. It is like me in that way. s From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 25 22:34:08 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:34:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream References: <200502241643.j1OGhTh06007@tick.javien.com> <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> Message-ID: <000d01c51b8a$1fd4be40$d1bf1b97@administxl09yj> [ben] > Maybe we are just some super-powerful mind's random dream, > and will disappear without trace in the morning. But who is dreaming that super-powerful mind? We, or some super-super-powerful mind? "With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him." - J.L.Borges, Las Ruinas Circulares "We (that indivisible divinity that operates within us) have dreamed the world. We have dreamed it as enduring, mysterious, visible, ubiquitous in space and stable in time; but we have consented to tenuous and eternal intervals of illogicalness in its architecture that we might know it is false." - J.L.Borges, Avatares de la Tortuga From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Feb 26 00:33:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:33:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation In-Reply-To: <009d01c51ae7$e9d38c10$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20050226003348.39036.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > I've got a new animation: > http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/revival.htm Shouldn't the nanites do their work before the suspension liquid is drained? Taking someone out of cryo without special preparation would seem unwise. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Feb 26 01:57:25 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:57:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation References: <20050226003348.39036.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c51ba6$84f46f20$1db71218@Nano> You are right, and initially I wanted to show a milky soup of bots in the liquid tank, but it would not be clear enough to the eye or easily understood by the mainstream. So I opted for a simple and generalized depiction, more suited for a mainstream audience. In some cases the knowledge that you and I have on these subjects would actually require an explanation with the animation, so to avoid this, in this scene I have condensed the events in an over simplified way. Perhaps the more animations I do, the more I will be able to produce a variety of levels and new ways of achieving them. I've been so busy with Jim lately and his treatment that I actually feel pretty good when I can manufacture any project these days! I do acknowledge that you are not only right, but very observant, and thank you for looking! Gina` ----- Original Message ----- From: Adrian Tymes To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] New animation --- Gina Miller wrote: > I've got a new animation: > http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/revival.htm Shouldn't the nanites do their work before the suspension liquid is drained? Taking someone out of cryo without special preparation would seem unwise. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 04:10:40 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:10:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] damien's psi book In-Reply-To: <20050222145127.51410.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050221224149.028dd238@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050222145127.51410.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050225200817.0288af40@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Hah! As far as I know, almost all progress comes from dissatisfaction with the way things are. I treasure my "solopsistic" disagreements, because this is the engine of change. Solopsists bite back..... At 06:51 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote: >Car accidents WHERE? Here or in a metareality? If this is a simulation, >what does it matter to you? People who don't like the risks inherent in >life in this universe tend to be excessively solipsistic in thinking >the universe was meant for them personally and are pissed off at >reality whenever it proves that this is not quite so. Reality bites. >Get over it. > >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > > An unavoidable hazard is something for which there is no reasonable > > preventive and effective action. Too many to count. Car accidents, > > for example. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 04:30:56 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:30:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sharpening the Zen Razor In-Reply-To: <20050224010121.85882.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050224010121.85882.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050225202438.028b7c80@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I find Occam's Razor an excellent principle for discarding non falsifiables. I always ask if a concept will bring me new insights or information, and non falsifiables never do so. If a non falsifiable is presented with testable evidence, it is now falsifiable and deserves investigation. Keeps my mind empty to recieve usable information. I am also thinking of that Zen Garden program. One may criticize it for many reasons, but its simplicity and 'just so' qualities are IMO part of its charm. Occam's Rake, so to speak.... >Your comments on Occam's razor sound right and in the >direction of quantify Occam's razor as more than a >principle of aesthetics. > >http://iangoddard.net ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 04:32:43 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:32:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <20050222184927.M31025@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <1109143789.23025.1147.camel@localhost.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050223203209.027d8a78@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050225203204.028b7f10@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Definitely a zensory experience..... At 06:34 PM 2/23/2005, you wrote: >Charmed. Although it was a not so zen a moment when I could not get the >rake to stop, but then perhaps that is what Dirk was looking for. :-) > >Which begs the question: Is zen a personal experience that each one of us >appreciates differently, or is it assumed that what is zen for me is zen >for you as well? > >Natasha ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 04:39:33 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:39:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] simulation argument may be just a dream In-Reply-To: <20050225204323.97952.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <421F74D4.6040102@lineone.net> <20050225204323.97952.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050225203900.028b8370@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> When butter flies, there's a fan somewhere.... >Am I a man dreaming I am a butterfly, or am I a >butterfly dreaming I am a man? And does it matter, >in terms of what things I must do, whether this is a >dream or reality? It behaves the same either way. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 04:37:10 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:37:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden In-Reply-To: <421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> References: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> <421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050225203627.0288f4f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> You mean the HeiZenberg principle? >And the value changes with each measurement. >But that's not the point. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From matus at matus1976.com Sat Feb 26 05:36:57 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:36:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation In-Reply-To: <009d01c51ae7$e9d38c10$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <000001c51bc5$30010e50$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Hi Gina, as a fellow 3D artist I have to say the new animation looks great. In particular the in the blood stream shots look of professional quality medical animations. Excellent work. I currently contribute most of my 3D effort to http://lifeboat.com/ex/ Modeling and animating a large space station. Which program do you use? Isnt the red blood cell is one of the smallest cells in the body? I would think at this scale we could probably see the cells that make up the walls of the blood vessel. Perhaps a cylindrical texture / bump map would add some realism to an already excellent looking graphic (I love the surfacing of the healthy red blood cell, btw) Regards, Michael -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina Miller Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:13 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation I've got a new animation: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/revival.htm The index: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Enjoy! Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Feb 26 06:09:32 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:09:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation In-Reply-To: <001701c51ba6$84f46f20$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20050226060932.11153.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > You are right, and initially I wanted to show a > milky soup of bots in the liquid tank, but it would > not be clear enough to the eye or easily understood > by the mainstream. So I opted for a simple and > generalized depiction, more suited for a mainstream > audience. In some cases the knowledge that you and I > have on these subjects would actually require an > explanation with the animation, so to avoid this, in > this scene I have condensed the events in an over > simplified way. Ah. Yes, definitely a valid concern, but I can think of a better simplification. Rather than pull the guy out then have a doctor inject, have a robot arm in the tank perform the injection. Also, have the entire suspension tank be horizontal. Zoom out and drain after the nanites do their work. Still have a doctor monitor the process, of course - operating a console on the outside of the time. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Feb 26 07:07:10 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:07:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation References: <000001c51bc5$30010e50$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <002f01c51bd1$d0859f60$1db71218@Nano> Hi, thank you Michael for your generous words. I use 3D Studio Max version 6 (I have 7, but I haven't installed it because I'm trying to avoid all of my zillion plug in re-installs that would go along with it). I then import my rendered scene or scenes into Vegas to break up and then glue back together (and add credits). What program are you using? I visited the website, I like the station and the blue hue really generates a clean feel. Is there a close up some where? Do you have more work at your own website? I do have more detailed materials for the walls that I attempted to use, but there were seams and there was also the more visually damaging problem of the wall texture showing itself way too much in the reflection of the bots shiny material, which I like, so it was a compromise to use this less reflective texture. I like the blood cell mats too, I almost want to eat them up like little jelly candies........but I won't! G ----- Original Message ----- From: Matus To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:36 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] New animation Hi Gina, as a fellow 3D artist I have to say the new animation looks great. In particular the in the blood stream shots look of professional quality medical animations. Excellent work. I currently contribute most of my 3D effort to http://lifeboat.com/ex/ Modeling and animating a large space station. Which program do you use? Isnt the red blood cell is one of the smallest cells in the body? I would think at this scale we could probably see the cells that make up the walls of the blood vessel. Perhaps a cylindrical texture / bump map would add some realism to an already excellent looking graphic (I love the surfacing of the healthy red blood cell, btw) Regards, Michael -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina Miller Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:13 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] New animation I've got a new animation: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/revival.htm The index: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Enjoy! Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Feb 26 07:28:35 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:28:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] new mersenne prime In-Reply-To: <002f01c51bd1$d0859f60$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <200502260728.j1Q7Sih02745@tick.javien.com> Woltman has announced that the 42nd known Mersenne Prime has been verified. Look for it in the popular press any time now. spike From scerir at libero.it Sat Feb 26 07:40:03 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:40:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Zen Garden References: <20050225010303.25154.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com><421E83B9.4010506@neopax.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20050225203627.0288f4f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c51bd6$62e47da0$ccc61b97@administxl09yj> From: "Hara Ra" > You mean the HeiZenberg principle? According to W.Pauli (1933) that principle is pure Zen, since nobody knows exactly what it means. It seems that even HeiZenberg - not the best authority about his own principle - used different words, meaning different things. Ungenauigheit = inexactness Unbekanntheit = unknowability Unsicherheit = uncertainty Unbestimmtheit = indeterminacy Present Zen-theorists are still debating on: - Do uncertainty relations apply to an _individual_ system or just to _ensembles_ (all in the same state)? - Do u.r. really imply a mere limitation on making certain kinds of measurements _simultaneously_? - Do u.r. imply a limitation on the possible _knowledge_ obtainable about a system? And whose knowledge? - Do u.r. imply a limitation on the _properties_ that can be ascribed to a quantum system? - Do u.r. imply a real perturbation of a _pre-existing_ physical state of a non commuting observable? - And many more Zen koans! s. "That which is physically unique cannot be separated from the observer anymore - and therefore falls through the net of physics. The individual case is occasion and not causa. I am inclined to see in this "occasio" - which includes the observer and his choice of the experimental setup and procedure - "revenue" of the "anima mundi" (of course in "changed shape") that was pushed aside in the 17th century. La donna ? mobile - also the anima mundi and the occasio." - W. Pauli Pauli Letter Collection, CERN, Geneva 9992.063, published in K. V. Laurikainen: Wolfgang Pauli and Philosophy. Gesnerus 41, (1984) 225-227 From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 10:51:47 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:51:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Spain's Government Approves Embryonic Stem Cell Research Projects In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20050221015717.021638d8@pop3.freenet.de> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20050221015717.021638d8@pop3.freenet.de> Message-ID: <470a3c520502260251686d2c8d@mail.gmail.com> Madrid, Spain (LifeNews.com) -- The Spanish government has given researchers the go-ahead to begin conducting experiments involving human embryonic stem cells. That makes the country one of four in Europe to authorize such research, contrary to the pro-life views of the Catholic Church. Spain's new Socialist government put forward guidelines last October allowing such research and, on Wednesday, it approved four new projects. Sweden, Belgium and Britain also allow research conducted by destroying human life. Source: LifeNews.com http://www.lifenews.com/bio726.html From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Feb 26 21:18:42 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:18:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Especially for spike! ;) In-Reply-To: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> References: <200502250718.j1P7IGh32379@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: ... a picture that was sent to me. ;) I tried sending it to the list, but of course that didn't work. So: http://buncombe.main.nc.us/~mbbweb/OhGod.jpg Regards, MB From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 27 00:00:33 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:00:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Especially for spike! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502270000.j1R00eh23865@tick.javien.com> > Subject: [extropy-chat] Especially for spike! ;) > > http://buncombe.main.nc.us/~mbbweb/OhGod.jpg > > Regards, > MB Oh dear, I have gotten a reputation for blammisphy. spike {8^D From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 27 06:29:03 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:29:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime In-Reply-To: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502270629.j1R6TJh03479@tick.javien.com> 225964951 - 1 is prime. This new record largest prime has over 7.8 million decimal digits. The largest known prime doubled in size every 12.5 seconds since the record was last set in May 04. It probably won't make a big splash in the press this time, since it is the third record in the past 15 months. We have come to expect such miracles, ho hum, and on a regular schedule thank you very much. The next one should get more attention because someone is going to win 100k-bucks for it. If you start GIMPS now, you have as good a chance as anyone else of that person being you. http://www.mersenne.org/primenet/status.shtml spike {8-] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 12:13:21 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:13:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist article on "Repubblica" Message-ID: <470a3c5205022704134ef45299@mail.gmail.com> The top Italian daily Repubblica has an article on transhumanism on its Sunday magazine. The article (in Italian) is available in full text on the WTA site http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/repubblica-qualcuno-e-perfetto-articolo-sul-transumanesimo/. Saying that the article is explicitly pro-transhumanist would be too much, but at least the author tries to be objective. Mentions the forthcoming TransVIsion 05 in Caracas, quotes Natasha, James, Robert Freitas and Zach Lynch, and includes a column by Riccardo Campa. From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 27 15:34:42 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:34:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime In-Reply-To: <200502270629.j1R6TJh03479@tick.javien.com> References: <200502270629.j1R6TJh03479@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4221E892.1040002@cox.net> spike wrote: >225964951 - 1 is prime. > > I think you mean: one less than two to the power of 25,964,951 Sure enough, that's a big number. 25,964,951 binary digits, all ones. >This new record largest prime has over 7.8 million >decimal digits. The largest known prime doubled in >size every 12.5 seconds since the record was last >set in May 04. It probably won't make a big splash >in the press this time, since it is the third record >in the past 15 months. We have come to expect such >miracles, ho hum, and on a regular schedule thank you >very much. > >The next one should get more attention because someone >is going to win 100k-bucks for it. If you start GIMPS >now, you have as good a chance as anyone else of that >person being you. > >http://www.mersenne.org/primenet/status.shtml > >spike > >{8-] > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 27 16:53:04 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:53:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime In-Reply-To: <4221E892.1040002@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502271653.j1RGrBh13909@tick.javien.com> > >225964951 - 1 is prime. > > > > > I think you mean: > one less than two to the power of 25,964,951 > Sure enough, that's a big number. 25,964,951 binary digits, > all ones. Ja I superscripted it in the original. The plaintext undid the superscript. Too bad for Dan Rather his copy machine didn't do that as well. I coulda put in a ^ however. {8^] spike From dgc at cox.net Sun Feb 27 18:36:44 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:36:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime In-Reply-To: <200502271653.j1RGrBh13909@tick.javien.com> References: <200502271653.j1RGrBh13909@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4222133C.50206@cox.net> spike wrote: >>>225964951 - 1 is prime. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I think you mean: >> one less than two to the power of 25,964,951 >>Sure enough, that's a big number. 25,964,951 binary digits, >>all ones. >> >> > >Ja I superscripted it in the original. The plaintext undid >the superscript. Too bad for Dan Rather his copy machine >didn't do that as well. I coulda put in a ^ however. {8^] > >spike > > > I sort of figured that your message had encountered a rabbit somewhere, and the rabbit has stolen the carrot. Sort of like a Spam filter :-) From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Feb 27 20:07:16 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:07:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aegis 3rd generation missile: BMD system In-Reply-To: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A few success out of how many failures (and using targets making success more probable than real life) and they speak of how "awesome" the system is and of wide deployment? Seems a bit premature. On Feb 25, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > What is really awesome is we can forward deploy these puppies on > cruisers and destroyers. Japan is buying some, so I can see them maybe > joining into NORAD at some point. > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050224/neth026_1.html > > Raytheon Standard Missile-3 Intercepts Target in Aegis Ballistic > Missile Defense System Test > Thursday February 24, 6:07 pm ET > > > PACIFIC MISSILE RANGE FACILITY, KAUAI, Hawaii, Feb. 24, 2005 > /PRNewswire/ -- The Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) Weapon System > and Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) destroyed a ballistic missile outside the > earth's atmosphere during an Aegis BMD Program flight test over the > Pacific Ocean. Raytheon Company develops the SM-3. Lockheed Martin > develops the Aegis BMD Weapon System. > The Feb. 24 mission -- the fifth successful intercept for SM-3 -- was > the first firing of the Aegis BMD "Emergency Deployment" capability > using operational versions of the SM-3 Block I missile and Aegis BMD > Weapon System. This was also the first test to exercise SM-3's third > stage rocket motor (TSRM) single-pulse mode. The TSRM has two pulses, > which can be ignited independently, providing expansion of the > ballistic missile engagement battlespace. > > The SM-3 was launched from the Aegis BMD cruiser USS Lake Erie (CG 70) > and hit a target missile that had been launched from the U.S. Navy's > Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai, Hawaii. > > "This successful flight test demonstrates the tactical, operational > capability of SM-3 and the Aegis BMD Weapon System in real-world > conditions," said Edward Miyashiro, Raytheon Missile Systems vice > president, Naval Weapon Systems. "Successes like we've seen today > provide decision makers the confidence to proceed with deploying in > quantity, providing the Nation with a robust capability that will > defend the U.S., deployed American forces, our friends and our allies. > Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense is for real." > > Japan has made decision to procure Aegis BMD with SM-3 for its Kongo > class ships. > > Raytheon's Missile Systems business in Tucson, Ariz., is developing > SM-3 and leads the integrated team effort, which includes Alliant > Techsystems, Aerojet, and The Boeing Company, which are providing major > subsystems. Lockheed Martin developed the Aegis BMD Weapon System. > Raytheon delivered five SM-3 operational rounds to the Missile Defense > Agency in 2004. The program is transitioning to production, with > Kinetic Warhead seeker and final integration occurring in Raytheon's > state-of-the-art Kill Vehicle manufacturing facility, alongside the > Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle. Final assembly and test will occur in > Camden, Ark. > > Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN - News), with 2004 sales of $20.2 billion, > is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, > information technology, technical services, and business and special > mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs > 80,000 people worldwide. > > Note to Editors: > > Raytheon's hit-to-kill successes with the sea-based STANDARD Missile-3 > occurred on Jan. 25, June 13 and Nov. 21, 2002, and Dec. 11, 2003; and > with the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle, part of the Ground-based Missile > Defense program on Oct. 2, 1999; July 13 and Dec. 3, 2001; and March 15 > and Oct. 14, 2002. > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Feb 27 20:15:46 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:15:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolutionary feedback again In-Reply-To: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502272016.j1RKFqh03258@tick.javien.com> I have posted on this before, but I have some new thoughts. Classical chemistry theory predicts which reactions can be expected and even equilibrium concentrations of reactants and products, but it provides very little insight into reaction rates. If one gets cluey with thermodynamics and heat transfer theory, one might estimate in general which reactions will be fast and which will be slow, but to really get a grok on chemical reaction rates requires the application of feedback and control theory to classical chemistry and thermodynamics. I had this notion confirmed recently by a new colleague who is formally trained in industrial chemical process engineering. He confirmed that there are great leaps in understanding provided by applying feedback and control theory, which is ordinarily used in machine control, to industrial chemical processes. The field is not crowded: there are very few engineers trained in both classical feedback control and chemistry. There are probably even fewer scientists with formal training in both evolutionary biology and control theory. My notion is this: if we can somehow apply feedback and control theory to evolutionary science, we might gain insights into the singularity. Singularity theorists are, after all, proposing a pole in the right half plane, as the controls engineer would say, a positive feedback loop leading to instability. We must fully understand what I think must be a critical positive feedback loop in evolution, the mechanism of mate selection. That mechanism explains the rise of humanity in our current form: intelligence (somehow) amplifies the mechanism of mate selection, which (somehow) amplifies intelligence, and so on. This positive feedback loop results in yet another wild card, the introduction of technology, which leads to a whole new dimension in mate selection, which leads to... what? This critical positive feedback loop forms the pole in the right half plane, which then (somehow) defeats all the inherent negative feedback loops that keep species in equilibrium, allowing the evolutionary version of a chemical explosion. Is not the spike or singularity the evolutionary equivalent of a chemical explosion? Wouldn't it be cool if we could apply feedback and control theory to predict the speed and final equilibrium of this explosion? Am I stretching the theory too far? Is evolutionary theory even applicable after the introduction of technology into the picture? Hellllp Mr. Wizaaaaarrrrrrd... spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 22:14:03 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:14:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aegis 3rd generation missile: BMD system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050227221403.22165.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > A few success out of how many failures (and using targets making > success more probable than real life) and they speak of how > "awesome" > the system is and of wide deployment? Seems a bit premature. How many failures have there been with this system? None that I've heard of. All the failures have been with the ground based system the Air Force and Army have been working on. The Aegis system is a ship-based system that hasn't had many, if any, failures, probably because it is an evolutionary development of the Aegis system, not a whole new one. Of course, critics will be calling the system 'premature' right up until the system is used in battle. Then they'll gripe that it wasn't 100% effective (as if any combat weapon ever is) and demand investigations, fines, and resignations. Then as effectiveness rises, they'll complain it costs too much, and that the manufacturers are gouging, until it becomes as perfected as possible at which point they will call it obsolete. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sun Feb 27 23:36:39 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:36:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aegis 3rd generation missile: BMD system In-Reply-To: References: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95ea3fc05d841ec3f8a972ca308cadb5@ceruleansystems.com> On Feb 27, 2005, at 12:07 PM, Samantha Atkins wrote: > A few success out of how many failures (and using targets making > success more probable than real life) and they speak of how "awesome" > the system is and of wide deployment? Seems a bit premature. Let me inject some context here. The sensor and discrimination systems used by the military are highly standardized, generally using the same software algorithms and sensor electronics across many different types of weapon systems. The different missile systems are no different in this regard, generally mixing and matching one of a few standard sensor/discrimination systems with a physical delivery platform designed to to meet some specification. Contrary to popular speculation, the sensor/discrimination platform used in ABM systems was well-proven a decade ago and is used in many other weapon systems. The discrimination capability of the particular seeker package used here is extremely competent and nearly impervious to spoofing or decoys (as has been demonstrated very convincingly in other fielded systems), making the oft-repeated "decoy" argument a red herring. The reason the Army/Air Force systems have been failing is that they are using an entirely new class of ultra-high performance rocket design that is still really in "testing"; several different weapon systems based on it are still having the kinks ironed out because the nature of the rocket platform poses some novel engineering problems that have not been entirely resolved to a level that makes them easy to work with. The ABM versions of this rocket platform are the most extreme of its current applications, making it the most likely to fail currently under real-world conditions -- it operates near the limits of molecular materials. The Aegis missile system in question here is a very advanced version of the old generation of missile platforms while using one of the standard ABM seeker packages. This is a much more reliable platform for intercept because all the major components are well-characterized, but the rocket platform is substantially less capable than the new one that is giving problems for the other branches of the military. Since the DoD is banking on the capabilities of the new rocket platform, it is just a matter of time before it becomes sufficiently reliable that the ABM systems will be able to make it to their target reliably. j. andrew rogers From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Feb 28 01:23:08 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:23:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aegis 3rd generation missile: BMD system References: <20050225220120.20506.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4222727C.71A169F2@mindspring.com> http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-02-17-rumsfeld-missiledefense_x.htm Rumsfeld makes case for funding missile defense By Tom Squitieri, USA TODAY Yogi Berra wannabe: "If you didn't do anything until you could do everything, you probably wouldn't do anything," he said. Terry ***** Samantha Atkins wrote: > > A few success out of how many failures (and using targets making > success more probable than real life) and they speak of how "awesome" > the system is and of wide deployment? Seems a bit premature. > > On Feb 25, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > What is really awesome is we can forward deploy these puppies on > > cruisers and destroyers. Japan is buying some, so I can see them maybe > > joining into NORAD at some point. > > > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050224/neth026_1.html > > > > Raytheon Standard Missile-3 Intercepts Target in Aegis Ballistic > > Missile Defense System Test > > Thursday February 24, 6:07 pm ET > > > > > > PACIFIC MISSILE RANGE FACILITY, KAUAI, Hawaii, Feb. 24, 2005 > > /PRNewswire/ -- The Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) Weapon System > > and Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) destroyed a ballistic missile outside the > > earth's atmosphere during an Aegis BMD Program flight test over the > > Pacific Ocean. Raytheon Company develops the SM-3. Lockheed Martin > > develops the Aegis BMD Weapon System. > > The Feb. 24 mission -- the fifth successful intercept for SM-3 -- was > > the first firing of the Aegis BMD "Emergency Deployment" capability > > using operational versions of the SM-3 Block I missile and Aegis BMD > > Weapon System. This was also the first test to exercise SM-3's third > > stage rocket motor (TSRM) single-pulse mode. The TSRM has two pulses, > > which can be ignited independently, providing expansion of the > > ballistic missile engagement battlespace. > > > > The SM-3 was launched from the Aegis BMD cruiser USS Lake Erie (CG 70) > > and hit a target missile that had been launched from the U.S. Navy's > > Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai, Hawaii. > > > > "This successful flight test demonstrates the tactical, operational > > capability of SM-3 and the Aegis BMD Weapon System in real-world > > conditions," said Edward Miyashiro, Raytheon Missile Systems vice > > president, Naval Weapon Systems. "Successes like we've seen today > > provide decision makers the confidence to proceed with deploying in > > quantity, providing the Nation with a robust capability that will > > defend the U.S., deployed American forces, our friends and our allies. > > Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense is for real." > > > > Japan has made decision to procure Aegis BMD with SM-3 for its Kongo > > class ships. > > > > Raytheon's Missile Systems business in Tucson, Ariz., is developing > > SM-3 and leads the integrated team effort, which includes Alliant > > Techsystems, Aerojet, and The Boeing Company, which are providing major > > subsystems. Lockheed Martin developed the Aegis BMD Weapon System. > > Raytheon delivered five SM-3 operational rounds to the Missile Defense > > Agency in 2004. The program is transitioning to production, with > > Kinetic Warhead seeker and final integration occurring in Raytheon's > > state-of-the-art Kill Vehicle manufacturing facility, alongside the > > Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle. Final assembly and test will occur in > > Camden, Ark. > > > > Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN - News), with 2004 sales of $20.2 billion, > > is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, > > information technology, technical services, and business and special > > mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs > > 80,000 people worldwide. > > > > Note to Editors: > > > > Raytheon's hit-to-kill successes with the sea-based STANDARD Missile-3 > > occurred on Jan. 25, June 13 and Nov. 21, 2002, and Dec. 11, 2003; and > > with the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle, part of the Ground-based Missile > > Defense program on Oct. 2, 1999; July 13 and Dec. 3, 2001; and March 15 > > and Oct. 14, 2002. > > > > > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 03:13:44 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:13:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question Message-ID: <20050228031344.13507.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is draining angular momentum from the earth, thus slowing earth's rotation and causing the moon to orbit at a greater distance from earth. I just started wondering if anyone has figured out how far away the moon has to get to escape earth orbit, how far into the future that will happen, and how much earth's day will be slowed by the time that happens..... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From dgc at cox.net Mon Feb 28 04:06:03 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:06:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <20050228031344.13507.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050228031344.13507.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <422298AB.4010301@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is draining angular >momentum from the earth, thus slowing earth's rotation and causing the >moon to orbit at a greater distance from earth. > >I just started wondering if anyone has figured out how far away the >moon has to get to escape earth orbit, how far into the future that >will happen, and how much earth's day will be slowed by the time that happens..... > > > I seem to recall that the earth slows to a stop before the moon escapes. At that point the earth has one face always pointing toward the moon, just as the moon has one face pointing toward the earth. But I haven't done the math. From kevin at kevinfreels.com Mon Feb 28 04:54:26 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:54:26 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime References: <200502271653.j1RGrBh13909@tick.javien.com> <4222133C.50206@cox.net> Message-ID: <002301c51d51$94c2ad70$0100a8c0@kevin> SO how long would it take to email me that number on a 56k modem? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Clemmensen" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime > spike wrote: > > >>>225964951 - 1 is prime. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I think you mean: > >> one less than two to the power of 25,964,951 > >>Sure enough, that's a big number. 25,964,951 binary digits, > >>all ones. > >> > >> > > > >Ja I superscripted it in the original. The plaintext undid > >the superscript. Too bad for Dan Rather his copy machine > >didn't do that as well. I coulda put in a ^ however. {8^] > > > >spike > > > > > > > I sort of figured that your message had encountered a rabbit > somewhere, and the rabbit has stolen the carrot. Sort of like > a Spam filter :-) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From neptune at superlink.net Mon Feb 28 05:25:40 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:25:40 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime References: <200502271653.j1RGrBh13909@tick.javien.com><4222133C.50206@cox.net> <002301c51d51$94c2ad70$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <00d101c51d55$f1c0d7a0$4a893cd1@pavilion> Maybe as long as it took to calculate it.:) From: "kevinfreels.com" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime > SO how long would it take to email me that number on a 56k modem? From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 05:28:14 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:28:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <20050228031344.13507.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228052814.77374.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is > draining angular momentum from the earth, thus > slowing earth's rotation and causing the moon to > orbit at a greater distance from earth. > > I just started wondering if anyone has figured out > how far away the moon has to get to escape earth > orbit, how far into the future that will happen, > and how much earth's day will be slowed by the time > that happens..... That process wont continue indefinitely. What's happening is that the earth/moon system is slowly "gravitating" toward synchronous rotation, or tidal lock. The moon is already tidally locked on the earth (and thus only one side of the moon faces the earth). The earth's rotation is slowing due to the moon's influence only to the point where it too will be tidally locked to the moon (at which point an observer on the moon would see only one side of the earth). The moon's moving away is part of this process and is due to conservation of the momentum in the earth/moon system such that as the earth losses momentum the moon gains it in taking a wider orbit. Once the earth/moon system has reached synchronous rotation, or orbital stability, it's my understanding that the earth/moon-system-induced changes in question (earth slowing & moon recession) will be stabilized. That would probably be millions of years from now. http://iangoddard.net/journal.htm David Hume on induction: "When we have lived any time, and have been accustomed to the uniformity of nature, we acquire a general habit, by which we always transfer the known to the unknown, and conceive the latter to resemble the former. By means of this general habitual principle, we regard even one experiment as the foundation of [empirical] reasoning, and expect a similar event with some degree of certainty." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 05:35:40 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:35:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <422298AB.4010301@cox.net> Message-ID: <200502280535.j1S5Zjh31628@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Clemmensen > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question > > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is draining angular > >momentum from the earth... > > > I seem to recall that the earth slows to a stop before the moon escapes... Don't look it up Mike, figure it out. We know the mass of the earth is about 6e24 kg and the mass of the moon is about 7e22 kg. The moment of inertia of a sphere is 2/5MR^2 and the radius of the earth is about 6E6 meters. So the moment of inertia of the earth is about 1e38 kg-m^2 and the earth goes thru 2 pi radians a day so the angular momentum of the earth is about 7e33 kg-m^2/sec. The moon goes 2 pi radians at a distance of about 4e8 meters in about 30 days. (It really doesn't work exactly that way, but this calc will get us the answer to one significant digit, which is all you often need.) So the angular momentum of the moon is about 2.7e34 kg-m^2/sec, so now you know the total angular momentum of the moon at its new distance and new month length must carry a total angular momentum equal to the sum of the earths angular momentum and the moon's or about 3.4e34 kg-m^2/sec. Set up the equation Mike. You can see that the moon already carries most of the angular momentum of the earth-moon system and you know how to calc the orbit time as a function of distance, so set that up, set the earth's day equal to the new month length, calc the distance and set the result equal to 3.4e34 kg-m^2/sec. Before I calc that, I can see the moon won't be getting away, but that our day length will be longer than 30 days. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 06:35:36 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:35:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <200502280535.j1S5Zjh31628@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike ... > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question ... > > Set up the equation Mike. You can see that the moon already > carries most of the angular momentum of the earth-moon system > and you know how to calc the orbit time as a function of distance... > spike I realized that there are others reading this who may be interested in the calc who are not as up to speed on orbits as you are Mike, so: the angular velocity of an orbiting body is proportional to the inverse square root of the distance from the earth, so since I = mR^2(omega) for the moon and in the final configuration the moon is carrying practically *all* the angular momentum of the system, and we calculated before that the moon's angular momentum was going from about 2.7 to 3.4, then the distance must be about 4e8 * (3.4/2.7)^.5 = about 4.5e8 meters. Does that sound about right? Of course you could sharpen the calcs if you find it necessary. So after we get tidelocked to the moon, our day length will be a little longer than the current lunal month and the moon will still look about the same as it does now, or perhaps a *little* less dramatic when it rises over the horizon while you gaze into your sweetheart's eyes. But you could still impress her or him or it by pointing out that the full moon has an apparent diameter of about 27 arc minutes, but it once was about 30. Of course you would need to be one of the fortunate ones on the side of the earth that could actually see the moon after tidelock. Also when I mentioned your sweetheart's eyes and offered a third alternative besides her or him, I reason it is uncertain how many eyes she, he or it might have, for the time it will take to tidelock the moon allows plenty of time for evolution to take life in a random direction, i.e. billions of years. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Feb 28 06:56:18 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:56:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050228005404.01df4b90@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Anyone know of a program (preferably a freebie) that will calculate exact probabilities associated with arbitrarily large z scores? Please reply on or off list, as the mood suits you. Thanks! Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 07:10:20 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:10:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime In-Reply-To: <002301c51d51$94c2ad70$0100a8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <200502280710.j1S7AUh09417@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] new record largest prime > > SO how long would it take to email me that number on a 56k modem? Lets see, in binary it is nearly 26 million bits (all of them 1s) and a 56k modem, does that mean it can receive 56k bits per second? Is not 56k what we used to call (back in the Paleozoic era) 56k baud? If so, then about 2000 seconds. What's that, about half an hour? If you want it in decimal digits (somewhat less boring than half an hour of 1s zinging past) that would take about an hour and a half. Wouldn't you rather settle for 2^25,964,951 - 1? spike Kevin I will give you a free horror story, since (I think) you are a young man. We (I and my fellow geezers) used to work on computers that scrolled text at 300 baud. When raging technology jumped it to 1200, we were convinced we couldn't read that fast, so it would be pointless for modems to go faster. Shreeeeeeeek! Now of course we get short apoplectic if our cable modems drop to much less than a thousand times that speed. s From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 07:24:01 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:24:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050228005404.01df4b90@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502280724.j1S7O6h11051@tick.javien.com> Microsloth excel will do it, but I need to get some sleep, work day tomorrow. Someone show Damien the z function in excel. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:56 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed > > Anyone know of a program (preferably a freebie) that will calculate exact > probabilities associated with arbitrarily large z scores? > > Please reply on or off list, as the mood suits you. Thanks! > > Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 07:35:15 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:35:15 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> References: <200502280535.j1S5Zjh31628@tick.javien.com> <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:35:36 -0800, spike wrote: > > So after we get tidelocked to the moon, our day length > will be a little longer than the current lunal month > and the moon will still look about the same as it > does now, or perhaps a *little* less dramatic when it > rises over the horizon while you gaze into your > sweetheart's eyes. > You have to add in the effect of the Sun tides (about half as strong as the Moon tides). See: Quote: This misalignment of the water spheroid causes the net gravitational pull exerted by the water bulges to have a small component along the direction of the Moon motion (i.e. a tangential component along the Moon's path). As a result, the Moon moves into a higher orbit and hence away from the Earth, at the rate of some 4 meters per 100 years, and the orbital period of the Moon increases. However, since the orbital period of the Moon increases at smaller rate than the length of the day does, both periods will eventually match. The Earth will be then tidally locked with the Moon, and the length of the day and the month will both be equal to some 50 present days, with the same side of Earth always facing the Moon. Note that the same side of the Moon already always faces the Earth, as the tidal action of the Earth on the Moon caused the Moon's original spin to slow down, and Moon became tidally locked with the Earth a long time ago, in the sense that the Moon spins once on it's axis for each revolution around the Earth. Once the Earth becomes tidally locked with the Moon, the solar tides will tend to slow the Earth's rotation even more, so the day will be longer than the month and the Moon will rise in the West and set in the East. The water spheroid generated by the Sun will cause the high tide to appear earlier than the time of highest moon, a situation exactly opposite to that of Fig. 2. Then the tidal force of Earth on the Moon will pull the Moon into a lower orbit and eventually inside the Roche limit (18500 km), whereupon the Moon will disintegrate, producing a ring around the Earth. End quote. BillK From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Mon Feb 28 09:45:09 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:45:09 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel (SA/SH) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200502280645.10609.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> In my view, there is a lack of logic in your argument for a simulation see www.dcaleironews.rg3.net Click on the serious texts links, the third text in the right. Diego (Log At) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 12:35:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:35:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <20050228052814.77374.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228123508.576.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Goddard wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is > > draining angular momentum from the earth, thus > > slowing earth's rotation and causing the moon to > > orbit at a greater distance from earth. > > > > I just started wondering if anyone has figured out > > how far away the moon has to get to escape earth > > orbit, how far into the future that will happen, > > and how much earth's day will be slowed by the time > > that happens..... > > > That process wont continue indefinitely. What's > happening is that the earth/moon system is slowly > "gravitating" toward synchronous rotation, or tidal > lock. I understand this. My question is whether the moon will accomplish this before becoming an independent body or not. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 12:58:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:58:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Baud rates vs bod rates In-Reply-To: <200502280710.j1S7AUh09417@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20050228125830.76195.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > Kevin I will give you a free horror story, since (I think) > you are a young man. We (I and my fellow geezers) used to > work on computers that scrolled text at 300 baud. When > raging technology jumped it to 1200, we were convinced > we couldn't read that fast, so it would be pointless for > modems to go faster. Shreeeeeeeek! Now of course we > get short apoplectic if our cable modems drop to much > less than a thousand times that speed. Shit. Now I'm a geezer. So much for extropic longevity. Of course I was 12 or 13 when I recall we geezers chatted about such things. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 13:07:58 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 05:07:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Proposed outline for a transhumanist novel (SA/SH) In-Reply-To: <200502280645.10609.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <20050228130758.96106.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Diego Caleiro wrote: > > In my view, there is a lack of logic in your argument for a > simulation > > see > > www.dcaleironews.rg3.net > > Click on the serious texts links, the third text in the right. "(2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof)" You argue that 2 is more probable than 3. Doesn't matter. Even if 2 is true, as I have shown by some rather simple Bayesian analysis, even if there exists only one posthuman civilization in the entire history of each universe, and that civilization only simulates one universe simulation, then odds are still overwhelmingly in favor of being in a simulation. In order for odds to be merely 50:50, any given posthuman civ must have only 50% chance of even running ONE universe sim, such that a progenitor civ in root universe u^prime would run one sim, and the one posthuman civ in that universe would choose not to run a sim. If EITHER civilization chooses to run more sims, or if there are more than one posthuman civilization in the ENTIRE history of their respective universes, then odds tip in favor of living in a sim. For proposition 2 to truly limit the simulation argument, it would have to be worded to say that any posthuman civilization would less than 50% likely to run even one universe simulation, AND that a modified Drake Equation would show there to be one or fewer posthuman civilizations in the entire history of even one naturally created universe. It truly must be strengthened to this degree in order to truly limit the odds of being in a simulation. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From kevin at kevinfreels.com Mon Feb 28 13:43:16 2005 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:43:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question References: <20050228052814.77374.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004f01c51d9b$7552e370$0100a8c0@kevin> I seem to barely recall having a 9600 baud modem at one point and hooking up to an online bbs called compupress. Of course I was in 5th grade, so I don;t know a heck of a lot more about it. I was into my Vic 20 back then and writing simple computer games in BASIC, but when the C64 came out, my dad wouldn't finance my hobby stating that this "computer craze is just a passing fad, you need to get educated into some kind of trade". Of course he would say that as a Union electrical worker. It wasn;t until my first 133 Mhz pentium that I even saw another computer or realized just how wrong he was. I feel sometimes that missed out on a lot of opportunity because of this. Now I can code HTML, build a system, get any Windows OS to boot, and hook up an NT network using various protocols, but all the higher stuff seems just out of my reach. Same thing with higher mathematics. I was never encouraged. Now I find myself trying to learn Trig on my own and it seems so much harder to really learn than in gradeschool. I am familiar with how the language center grows at a fantastic rate as a child and as an adult you simply cannot learn a 2nd, 3rd, or even 10th language like you could when you were a kid. I often wonder if this isn't the same with math. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Goddard" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > It is a well known phenomenon that the moon is > > draining angular momentum from the earth, thus > > slowing earth's rotation and causing the moon to > > orbit at a greater distance from earth. > > > > I just started wondering if anyone has figured out > > how far away the moon has to get to escape earth > > orbit, how far into the future that will happen, > > and how much earth's day will be slowed by the time > > that happens..... > > > That process wont continue indefinitely. What's > happening is that the earth/moon system is slowly > "gravitating" toward synchronous rotation, or tidal > lock. > > The moon is already tidally locked on the earth (and > thus only one side of the moon faces the earth). The > earth's rotation is slowing due to the moon's > influence only to the point where it too will be > tidally locked to the moon (at which point an observer > on the moon would see only one side of the earth). The > moon's moving away is part of this process and is due > to conservation of the momentum in the earth/moon > system such that as the earth losses momentum the moon > gains it in taking a wider orbit. > > Once the earth/moon system has reached synchronous > rotation, or orbital stability, it's my understanding > that the earth/moon-system-induced changes in question > (earth slowing & moon recession) will be stabilized. > That would probably be millions of years from now. > > > > http://iangoddard.net/journal.htm > > David Hume on induction: "When we have lived any time, > and have been accustomed to the uniformity of nature, > we acquire a general habit, by which we always > transfer the known to the unknown, and conceive the > latter to resemble the former. By means of this > general habitual principle, we regard even one > experiment as the foundation of [empirical] reasoning, > and expect a similar event with some degree of certainty." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 15:38:55 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:38:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200502281539.j1SFdAh03530@tick.javien.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike ... > > Also when I mentioned your sweetheart's eyes and offered > a third alternative besides her or him, I reason it > is uncertain how many eyes she, he or it might have, for > the time it will take to tidelock the moon allows plenty > of time for evolution to take life in a random direction, > i.e. billions of years. > > spike Regarding far-future sweethearts, she, he or it might not have a heart, these having evolved into some other structure. But perhaps the term "sweet-indeterminate-structure" would be difficult to write poetry with this term. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 15:44:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:44:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] We are the final frontier Message-ID: <470a3c5205022807446bcb34a@mail.gmail.com> The Guardian - Copernicus, Darwin, Crick and Watson changed the way people see themselves. So what's next? What will be the fourth revolution? And will it, like those before, force us to question once more what it means to be human? To find out, Life put the question to some of the world's top scientists. The leading candidates for the next revolution are enthralling, depressing and mind-boggling. Seth Shostak, of the alien-hunting Seti organisation in California, believes that we will become the first species to invent our successor, intentionally demoting ourselves to intellectual second fiddle. Others say we will finally understand the workings of the mind, and with it grasp fully the nature of self. Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City University of New York, believes that we will discover parallel universes, perhaps floating just inches away from our own. Elvis Presley might even be alive and well in one of them, he says. The Oxford University neuroscientist Susan Greenfield sees a bleak future. We will see a melding of man and machine, she says, leading to the demise of the individual. http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1409019,00.html From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 15:47:12 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:47:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050228005404.01df4b90@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200502281547.j1SFlGh04525@tick.javien.com> Damien do you know of the normdist and norminv functions in excel? With normdist, you give it your x, the mean and standard deviation of the distribution and the cumulative, it returns the probability. The norminv does the opposite: you give it the p, the mean and sigma and it returns the inverse normal. I have found both of these functions enormously useful in writing stochastic sims. I have written a computer sim of myself. It acts just like me: it is so realistic that it is trying to write a sim of itself. Not. {8^D Do you have microsloth excel? There is a free java equivalent. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:56 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed > > Anyone know of a program (preferably a freebie) that will calculate exact > probabilities associated with arbitrarily large z scores? > > Please reply on or off list, as the mood suits you. Thanks! > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 15:57:12 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:57:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <200502281539.j1SFdAh03530@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200502281557.j1SFvHh05740@tick.javien.com> > > > Regarding far-future sweethearts, she, he or it might not > have a heart, these having evolved into some other structure. > But perhaps the term "sweet-indeterminate-structure" > would be difficult to write poetry with this term. > > spike And the songs get all messed up and hard to sing. Try singing "Leeet me caaaall you sweet-indeterminate-organ..." or sir Elton's "Sweet-indeterminate-organs on Parade." spike From dwish at indco.net Mon Feb 28 16:50:48 2005 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:50:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed In-Reply-To: <200502281547.j1SFlGh04525@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200502281645.j1SGjS8o005905@br549.indconet.com> OpenOffice.org is a great alternative to MS excel. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:47 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed Damien do you know of the normdist and norminv functions in excel? With normdist, you give it your x, the mean and standard deviation of the distribution and the cumulative, it returns the probability. The norminv does the opposite: you give it the p, the mean and sigma and it returns the inverse normal. I have found both of these functions enormously useful in writing stochastic sims. I have written a computer sim of myself. It acts just like me: it is so realistic that it is trying to write a sim of itself. Not. {8^D Do you have microsloth excel? There is a free java equivalent. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:56 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [extropy-chat] program for p values needed > > Anyone know of a program (preferably a freebie) that will calculate exact > probabilities associated with arbitrarily large z scores? > > Please reply on or off list, as the mood suits you. Thanks! > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.2 - Release Date: 2/28/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.2 - Release Date: 2/28/2005 From iamgoddard at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 17:54:12 2005 From: iamgoddard at yahoo.com (Ian Goddard) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:54:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <20050228123508.576.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228175412.24343.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > That process wont continue indefinitely. What's > > happening is that the earth/moon system is slowly > > "gravitating" toward synchronous rotation, or > > tidal lock. > > I understand this. My question is whether the moon > will accomplish this before becoming an independent > body or not. The moon's motion away from the earth is just a process of distributing angular momentum in the earth/moon system. So provided there are no other forces acting on the moon I see no reason to assume this feature of the process of achieving synchronous rotation would eject the moon from the system. I wrote: > Once the earth/moon system has reached synchronous > rotation, or orbital stability, it's my > understanding that the earth/moon-system-induced > changes in question (earth slowing & moon > recession) will be stabilized. The Oxford Dictionary of Astronomy confirms that the earth/moon process eventually stops, and adds some interesting details that address long-term results: "Over long periods of time tidal friction [induced by the moon] decreases the Earth's rate of spin, so lengthening the day. In turn, the Moon has angular momentum added to it in its orbit and gradually spirals away from the Earth. Ultimately, when the day equals the Moon's orbital period (each being about 40 times the length of the present day) the process will cease. A new process will then begin in which the Sun's tide-raising power takes angular momentum from the Earth-Moon system. The Moon will then spiral in closer to the Earth until it is torn to pieces when it enters the Earth's Roche limit." (page 461) ~Ian __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 17:54:56 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:54:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050228175456.15532.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > You have to add in the effect of the Sun tides (about half as strong > as the Moon tides). > See: > > Quote: > This misalignment of the water spheroid causes the net gravitational > pull exerted by the water bulges to have a small component along the > direction of the Moon motion (i.e. a tangential component along the > Moon's path). As a result, the Moon moves into a higher orbit and > hence away from the Earth, at the rate of some 4 meters per 100 > years, and the orbital period of the Moon increases. However, since > the orbital period of the Moon increases at smaller rate than the > length of the day does, both periods will eventually match. The > Earth will be then tidally locked with the Moon, and the length of > the day and the month will both be equal to some 50 present days, > with the same side of Earth always facing the Moon. Note that the > same side of the Moon already always faces the Earth, as the tidal > action of the Earth on the Moon caused the Moon's original spin to > slow down, and Moon became > tidally locked with the Earth a long time ago, in the sense that the > Moon spins once on it's axis for each revolution around the Earth. Since we are talking about sun-tide issues here, will the earth be moving in or out from the sun in its orbit? Will the Sun cause the Moon's orbit to become eccentric as it gets farther and farther from the earth? Will the Moon eventually reach one of the Earth-Sun Lagrange points? > > Once the Earth becomes tidally locked with the Moon, the solar tides > will tend to slow the Earth's rotation even more, so the day will be > longer than the month and the Moon will rise > in the West and set in the East. The water spheroid generated by the > Sun will cause the high tide to appear earlier than the time of > highest moon, a situation exactly opposite to that of Fig. 2. Then > the tidal force of Earth on the Moon will pull the Moon into a lower > orbit and eventually inside the Roche limit (18500 km), whereupon > the Moon will disintegrate, producing a ring around the Earth. Now I finally have an environmental group I can relate to: "Save the Moon!" Given also the present environmental movement's obsession with KEEPING THINGS AS THEY ARE, FOREVER, BECAUSE THAT IS NATURAL, Save The Moon will be dedicated to keeping the moon in its present orbit and will work with it's sister organization, the Association To Preserve The Twenty Four Hour Day, in figuring out how to keep the Earth spinning at the same rate, forever. We are obviously going to need a LOT of federal funding and tax-deductible donations to solve these problems, starting with the construction of a lunar base and massive solar power farms on the moon to power gigantic mass drivers. We can kick it off with a big telethon called "MoonAid". Perhaps Earth's spin could be preserved with some Skyhooks anchored to some asteroids.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 21:04:46 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Women adopt frozen embryos... In-Reply-To: <20050228175456.15532.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228210446.61955.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Women Adopt Frozen Embryos, Save Them from Science http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005022814480002018203&dt=20050228144800&w=RTR&coview= MADRID (Reuters) - A Spanish clinic that allows women to adopt frozen embryos to save them from scientific research said Monday 14 women were pregnant with adopted embryos. The Barcelona clinic launched a scheme last year to allow embryos left over from fertility treatment and destined for stem cell research to be implanted into women. Tens of thousands of embryos are currently frozen in Spain and the launch of the program coincided with the government allowing scientists to use them for research. -endquote- Now this is a fair solution: all those against the use of embryos in stem cell research should put their wombs where their mouths are... er... that didn't come out right... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Mon Feb 28 22:02:16 2005 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:02:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transparent Society - hu? Message-ID: <319150-22005212822216905@M2W042.mail2web.com> Here is an insightful and droll look at a Transparent Society. :-) http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927 Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dgc at cox.net Mon Feb 28 23:46:03 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:46:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Astronomical question In-Reply-To: <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> References: <200502280636.j1S6Zph05722@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4223AD3B.5080808@cox.net> spike wrote: >So after we get tidelocked to the moon, our day length >will be a little longer than the current lunal month >and the moon will still look about the same as it >does now, or perhaps a *little* less dramatic when it >rises over the horizon while you gaze into your >sweetheart's eyes. > > How are we going to get the moon to rise over the horizon when we are tide-locked?