[extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005

Eugen Leitl eugen at leitl.org
Sun Jan 9 22:42:45 UTC 2005


On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 03:51:48PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote:

> I think that most hydrogen-fueled vehicles will use hydrogen generated 
> from electricity, yes?

No, it's fossil fuels reforming, most likely onboard (because cryogenic fuel
or pressurized hydrogen storage is pretty much insane in small vehicles).

Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin
reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly).

> if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new 
> electrical generation

Even if it's just EVs, they're ZEV locally (energy plant is high-efficiency,
and exhaust scrubbed), and are more efficient than ICE overall, if properly
designed (a large if, admittedly, if one considers what today passes for an
EV on the road, yecch).

I'm not sure anything could beat a composite-frame Li-ion EV for daily short
commutes, right now. You'd recharge them overnight, or when parking at work
(could be from a PV array, or from night nuke power, which is cheap).

Of course, a fuel cell vehicle could actually power an entire home when not
cruising. People at home while no car in the garage/lot is pretty
pathological for a typical American household, anyway. 

> capacity must be added to the power grid. I think that this new capacity 
> will mostly be
> coal and oil fired plants. For oil-fired plants, we gain almost nothing, 
> and we may actually lose.
> For coal-fired plants, coal-rich countries gain some energy 
> independence, but only at the environmental
> cost of providing the coal. From a global warming perspective coal (pure 
> carbon) emits the most
> CO2 per unit of energy, yes?

Vehicular CO2 emission is completely irrelevant in comparison to other 
anthropogenic greenhouse gases.
 
> Even if the vehicle is perfectly efficient, the total environmental 
> efficiency must include all steps in the
> energy production chain. This is of course as true for gasoline and 
> diesel as for hydrogen.

The issue with gas cars is particulate/noxious exhaust and overall system-inherent
inefficiency of an ICE.
 
> Now I must go google for real numbers.
> 
> In a very few cases the new electrical generators will be hydro, but 
> there are few remaining places
> in the world for massive hydro without associated massive environmental 
> effects. If the new generators
> are nuclear, there is a clear win.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
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