[extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq? Onwhatbasis?

[Robert Lindauer]

Terry W. Colvin wrote:

>
> Robert,
>
> First, a linguistic note to salve my curiosity.  I've noticed posters 
> on other lists, who I know aren't British, who use
> British terms such as codswallop (bullshit?) or pinch (to steal).  Are 
> you British?


No, just a yeart at U. of Sussex at sunny Brighton by the sea and a 
coupla years in Dublin.  I also still say "sorry" when I mean "excuse 
me" or when something bad happens to someone else that isn't my fault 
and tend to have a Cockburn's or Jameson's after dinner (but seldom 
before dinner anymore, sigh).  I still fry my mushrooms and tomatoes for 
breakfast occasionally and, of course, own a copy of Queen's greatest 
hits (but have sadly stopped listening to it).  That's pretty much where 
the whole english thing ends with me.  By race I'm Jewish, Korean, 
Hungarian, Austrian, German-Irish third generation immigrants to the US 
on all sides but the German-Irish.  Most people say they can't tell I'm 
Korean by looking at me but I make a mean Kal bi, kim chi and tobuchige.

>
> Second, if war is the last resort then would you have pursued Islamic 
> extremists in Afghanistan in a different way?


I don't have enough information about Al quaeda and thier involvement in 
the 9/11 attacks to say what I would have done.

How can we extract ourselves from these messes in Iraq and Afganistan?  
Now that's a question worth asking.

1)  Impeach our president, admit we were wrong.
2)  Reach out to the UN for assistance in rebuilding Iraq on THEIR terms 
- give it to them!
3)  Extract our troops as quickly as is reasonably possible.
4)  Reach out to the current "insurgency" and let them know that they'll 
be getting their country back reasonably and peacefully as quickly as 
possible and that they're invited to join in the formation of the new 
government -and mean it-.  Perhaps offer to make Iraq a shining example 
of a Libertarian utopia :)

(as long as I'm at it...)

5)  Rebuild our economy by financing a massive alternative energy 
conversion on the same debt we were going to use to pay for the rest of 
the war obviating the percieved need for more exploratory missions to 
the middle east.

(and now to the soapbox version of attempting to answer your question, 
I'm sure you were looking forward to it)

 Hopefully I'd have been a better diplomat (yeah right!, me a 
diplomat... I still piss off my wife's cat for fun) BEFORE 9/11 and 
avoided the whole confounded incident.  But in the unimaginably unlikely 
possible world where I found myself president on 9/12 looking for 
something to do I'd probably have listened to my CIA/FBI advisors and 
gone in with the toothpick before using a hammer.  If I was interested 
in saving my political career (which would probably be the main reason 
such a world was so completely absurd) I would attempt to have a head or 
two rolling down the table within a few weeks and then some kind of 
back-office deal to appease the attackers and once again restore peace?  
Hopefully the head will have been dead for years so nobody new would 
have had to die...  Maybe...

No doubt the Taliban were upset by Unocal's insistence on pushing 
through the afgan line -on their terms- and no doubt they could have 
been sated had -someone- told Unocal just to play nice with the 
natives.  But I don't know enough about Al Quaeda's involvement with the 
Taliban and the Saudi government to really have an understanding of who 
to talk to and how to talk with them.  I'd LOVE to know, though.  I've 
read Osama Bin Laden's statement but frankly without knowing in more 
detail how Al Quaeda is organized and what their relationship is with 
their various supporting organizations, I don't have enough information 
to make an informed decision even in retrospect.  It's possible that the 
taliban was so closely aligned with Al Quaeda that 9/11 was essentially 
a first-shot act of war.  If that was the case, I don't know what I'd 
have done, but it probably wouldn't have been greeted with glee by true 
pacifists - would have had to keep it hush-hush no doubt.  It's equally 
possible, from my point of view, that Bin Laden was hired by Bush's 
people to stir things up and save his flailing presidency.  In which 
case, because I'd be such a good president there'd be no need to hire 
terrorists to give me something to do and so the whole event would have 
been avoided.  But this possible-world day-dreaming is always so 
ridiculous after the fact.  The possibilities to explore are the ones 
moving forward.

I know that the Taliban had terrible treatment of women and that might 
be grounds for war all by itself, but then the Taliban wouldn't be the 
first target if we were starting a war on sexism.  Perhaps to solve that 
problem I'd try something definitively diplomatic (lap dances all 
around?  - just a joke, lighten up people!)  Anyway, for that we'd 
probably have to start in India or Pakistan, "our allies".  So, 
unfortunately, the sex issue gets swept under the floor as it has been 
for the last 5000 years

.

Robbie