[extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq? Onwhatbasis?

[Terry W. Colvin]

Robert Lindauer wrote:

> Terry W. Colvin wrote:
>
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> First, a linguistic note to salve my curiosity.  I've noticed posters 
>> on other lists, who I know aren't British, who use
>> British terms such as codswallop (bullshit?) or pinch (to steal).  
>> Are you British?
>
>
>
> No, just a yeart at U. of Sussex at sunny Brighton by the sea and a 
> coupla years in Dublin.  I also still say "sorry" when I mean "excuse 
> me" or when something bad happens to someone else that isn't my fault 
> and tend to have a Cockburn's or Jameson's after dinner (but seldom 
> before dinner anymore, sigh).  I still fry my mushrooms and tomatoes 
> for breakfast occasionally and, of course, own a copy of Queen's 
> greatest hits (but have sadly stopped listening to it).  That's pretty 
> much where the whole english thing ends with me.  By race I'm Jewish, 
> Korean, Hungarian, Austrian, German-Irish third generation immigrants 
> to the US on all sides but the German-Irish.  Most people say they 
> can't tell I'm Korean by looking at me but I make a mean Kal bi, kim 
> chi and tobuchige.

Ah, that explains certain words.  I myself have a love of English 
literature which often confuses my use of "s" and "z" in
words Americans changed early in our history.  My ancestors come from 
Scotland.  I too like mushrooms and tomatoes
but rarely for breakfast.  Queen's greatest hits?  Leg-pull?  I'm 
curious to trace ancestry through the National Geographic
project but $125 to process a mouth swab is a bit exorbitant.  My wife 
is Thai-Chinese.  Ruk-Long (Infatuation) and I have
been married 32 years.  We have five adult children and six 
grandchildren.  Amy (age 30) and Jeremy (age 28) tend to look
either Arabic or Spanish in my opinion.  Amy married a fellow of German 
ancestry.  Their sons/our grandsons, Nicholas
(age 7.5) and Jacob (age 4.5) are 25% Thai-Chinese but the phenotypes 
common to Asians are not expressed.  It is
fascinating to watch genetics at work.

>>
>> Second, if war is the last resort then would you have pursued Islamic 
>> extremists in Afghanistan in a different way?
>
>
>
> I don't have enough information about Al quaeda and thier involvement 
> in the 9/11 attacks to say what I would have done.
>
> How can we extract ourselves from these messes in Iraq and 
> Afganistan?  Now that's a question worth asking.
>
> 1)  Impeach our president, admit we were wrong.

IMO, no evidence to impeach.

> 2)  Reach out to the UN for assistance in rebuilding Iraq on THEIR 
> terms - give it to them!

The UN make good peacekeepers, not peacemakers.  Diplomacy and economic 
sanctions sometimes aren't enough.
Two prime examples are Somalia in 1993 and Bosnia/Kosovo before 1995.  
Somalia was a disaster where the U.S.
allowed UN bureaucrats to make military decisions.  We left.  Somalia 
continues to be a non-functional country.  The
UN couldn't talk the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims into being good guys.  
After the Srebenica massacre (10 years ago
as of 11 July) the UN handed control over to NATO.  This worked.  NATO 
(mostly American forces) put out the word
that any attacks on NATO would bring full military force on their 
heads.  The UN was run out of Iraq last year.

> 3)  Extract our troops as quickly as is reasonably possible.

Yes, and the horns of a dilemma.  Too soon and the area reverts to 
tribal/religious warfare with another strongman
emerging.  Too lengthy and we do risk a long-term Baathist/Sunni/foreign 
extremist nightmare.

> 4)  Reach out to the current "insurgency" and let them know that 
> they'll be getting their country back reasonably and peacefully as 
> quickly as possible and that they're invited to join in the formation 
> of the new government -and mean it-.  Perhaps offer to make Iraq a 
> shining example of a Libertarian utopia :)

I'm hearing that U.S. commanders and GOI (government of Iraq) officials 
are meeting with some insurgent groups.  The Shias
allied with Muqtada-al-Sadr have ceased military action and seek 
political assimilation.  The Kurdish region is relatively stable.
The Shia south is relatively stable.  Yes, I see your smiley face.  IMO, 
utopias only work in literature.

> (as long as I'm at it...)
>
> 5)  Rebuild our economy by financing a massive alternative energy 
> conversion on the same debt we were going to use to pay for the rest 
> of the war obviating the percieved need for more exploratory missions 
> to the middle east.

The economy remains strong; however, the housing market bubble worries 
me.  Unlike the dotcom bubble, pure speculation,
housing are physical assets, although prices may level out or depreciate.

> (and now to the soapbox version of attempting to answer your question, 
> I'm sure you were looking forward to it)
>
> Hopefully I'd have been a better diplomat (yeah right!, me a 
> diplomat... I still piss off my wife's cat for fun) BEFORE 9/11 and 
> avoided the whole confounded incident.  But in the unimaginably 
> unlikely possible world where I found myself president on 9/12 looking 
> for something to do I'd probably have listened to my CIA/FBI advisors 
> and gone in with the toothpick before using a hammer.  If I was 
> interested in saving my political career (which would probably be the 
> main reason such a world was so completely absurd) I would attempt to 
> have a head or two rolling down the table within a few weeks and then 
> some kind of back-office deal to appease the attackers and once again 
> restore peace?  Hopefully the head will have been dead for years so 
> nobody new would have had to die...  Maybe...

We did use a toothpick in Afghanistan.  Special operations and using 
"friendly" tribal forces to disrupt Taliban forces.  Fanatics
can neither be appeased nor vetted.  My geography professor, a retired 
military intelligence colonel, predicted the rise of
extremist Islamic forces in 1995.  The best defense is a good offense.

> No doubt the Taliban were upset by Unocal's insistence on pushing 
> through the afgan line -on their terms- and no doubt they could have 
> been sated had -someone- told Unocal just to play nice with the 
> natives.  But I don't know enough about Al Quaeda's involvement with 
> the Taliban and the Saudi government to really have an understanding 
> of who to talk to and how to talk with them.  I'd LOVE to know, 
> though.  I've read Osama Bin Laden's statement but frankly without 
> knowing in more detail how Al Quaeda is organized and what their 
> relationship is with their various supporting organizations, I don't 
> have enough information to make an informed decision even in 
> retrospect.  It's possible that the taliban was so closely aligned 
> with Al Quaeda that 9/11 was essentially a first-shot act of war.  If 
> that was the case, I don't know what I'd have done, but it probably 
> wouldn't have been greeted with glee by true pacifists - would have 
> had to keep it hush-hush no doubt.  It's equally possible, from my 
> point of view, that Bin Laden was hired by Bush's people to stir 
> things up and save his flailing presidency.  In which case, because 
> I'd be such a good president there'd be no need to hire terrorists to 
> give me something to do and so the whole event would have been 
> avoided.  But this possible-world day-dreaming is always so ridiculous 
> after the fact.  The possibilities to explore are the ones moving forward.

The Taliban were manipulated by Osama Bin Laden.  Al Quaeda is no longer 
the primary force.  There is a movement of
like-minded fanatics, as individuals, cells, and organizations spreading 
as a virus throughout the world.  Bush's presidency
was less than a year old when 9/11 happened.  I don't blame Clinton 
entirely; however, he helped along the abetting and
ignoring that seemed to take hold after Watergate.  The CIA was 
eviscerated by Congress, rightly or wrongly/probably a mix,
and the FBI continued to muddle along.  This is more a systemic problem 
and inherent in any democracy.  My personal
analogy concerns vetting those with security clearances.  The 
bureaucracy reacted to the Walker/Whitworth et al espionage
scandals by reviewing those married to foreign nationals.  I am one of 
those who "administrately" lost their above Top Secret
security clearance.  Of those indicted and convicted for espionage none 
were married to foreign nationals except for Aldrich
Ames whose wife I think became a naturalized American.  The security 
services will accept naturalizations as nullifying any
potential for espionage encouragement by spouses.  The reasoning given 
is that foreign nationals can't be sent to prison for
espionage which is true if they have diplomatic immunity or can flee to 
a country or their country without an extradition treaty
with the United States.  My long-winded R&R (rant and rave) here is 
intended to show that bureaucracies muddle along and
all politicians are not to be trusted.  Term limits and amateur status 
as our forefathers intended those serving to return to
their farms and businesses after a few years, unlike the professional 
politicans we have today.

> I know that the Taliban had terrible treatment of women and that might 
> be grounds for war all by itself, but then the Taliban wouldn't be the 
> first target if we were starting a war on sexism.  Perhaps to solve 
> that problem I'd try something definitively diplomatic (lap dances all 
> around?  - just a joke, lighten up people!)  Anyway, for that we'd 
> probably have to start in India or Pakistan, "our allies".  So, 
> unfortunately, the sex issue gets swept under the floor as it has been 
> for the last 5000 years
>
> .
>
> Robbie

Sexism works both ways.  Some feminists and Hollywood went overboard 
portraying "ALL" males as contemptible.
One theory is that sexism began with agriculture.  Women were relegated 
to inferior roles.  The hunter-gatherers were
much more egalitarian.  Women often provided more sustenance from insect 
protein, roots, berries, etc. than those
engaged in hunting animals.

Terry


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]