[extropy-chat] Dark matter and ET

[Eugen Leitl]

On Sun, Jul 17, 2005 at 07:04:15PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> 'Light cone' ??? The diameter of the Milky Way is 160 thousand light
> years. If any technological civ decides to colonise our galaxy, then
> depending on the assumptions, it will only take from a few 100,000
> years at c, up to a few million years to physically colonize the whole
> Milky Way. This is a tiny, tiny portion of the lifetime of our galaxy.

The light cone issue is relevant for 5-6 orders of magnitude larger scale.
Nobody sees large spherical voids at supercluster scale. There might be
isolated sightings of dark galaxies. I don't think they're brilliant, because
it implies intergalactic void is a tough barrier to cross, which doesn't make
sense.

> Fermi knew this, that's why it is a paradox for him.

I think Fermi's point was that he didn't think there was anybody smart out there.
He didn't think it was a paradox, others thought it was, and put his name on
it.

> That is also one of the reasons I have for thinking that galaxy
> colonisation is not an objective for post-singularity civs.

You haven't given me any reasons, just said that it's as easy to blanket out
a galaxy as it is a single star. I agree. You think they're not expansive, I
think they're not there. Which explanation is simpler?

> > Are you genuinely surprised that a detector can always observe detect itself,
> > even if the detector density is damn low? And that observation only tells you
> > at at least one detector exists, and nothing beyond that, until you can find a
> > causally unentangled another sample?
> > 
> > > My view of any post singularity civilization is that it won't want to
> > 
> > My view is exactly opposite, natch.
> > 
> 
> OK, so where are they? 

Again: we're not in anybody's smart light cone. There's nobody out there we
can see yet. I pity poor presmarties in our light cone, though. They'll never
know what'll hit them.

> Are you making the even more unlikely claim that we are the first, or only? 

Anthropic principle says you can't infer a probability from a single sample,
the one being you. A single instance of intelligence in the entire universe
will reliably detect itself, each time. Cogito, ergo sum.

> Or are you claiming that we are unable to recognise post-singularity
> civs and they are, in fact, all around us?

No. I told you you should see them on GYr scale (and in fact, if you could
see them, you'd be dead soon after, or you'd never happened at all, which 
is a negative anthropic principle factor).

> Why switch to talking about bacteria and kudzu? I doubt if they have
> the capability to colonise the galaxy. I am talking about

It's a metaphor. The postbiological equivalent of primitive life. We'd be
right there at home among the mice and kudzu.

> post-singularity intelligence which can redesign itself. Immortality
> is one obvious result.

Nobody can monopolize control of the physical layer. Immortality looks good
on paper, until your neighbour eats you.

This isn't a single SI, or a monoclone thereof.

> Due to the vast age of the Milky Way, if they are not here, then either: 
> a) they don't want to be here, (a consequence of post-singularity

Anything nonexpansive is irrelevant. Anything expansive you see for a
gigalightyear distances.

> intelligence) or
> b) the singularity *always* kills civs, or 

What is the kill mechanism to reliably blanket a light day-month postbiology
ecosystem, every time? I can't think of any. You can't recall the chain
letter, that keeps on giving itself.

> c) we cannot see them all around us.

Do you think this is air you're breathing? (I do think this is air you're
breathing).

> I go with a).

I go we transcend now, and see for ourselves. My take is we initiate a
relativistic expansive wave which will only get canceled by another one, or
until dark energy sets an end to it.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820            http://www.leitl.org
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