From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Jun  1 00:16:33 2005
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:16:33 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Deepthroat confirmed
Message-ID: <003401c5663f$2db5a920$0200a8c0@Nano>

Washington Post Confirms Felt Was 'Deep Throat'
Woodward, Bernstein and Bradlee Reveal Former FBI Official as Secret Watergate Source
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/31/AR2005053100655.html

(and no, I don't want to hear any cracks about the subjectline!)  : )

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm
Microscope Jewelry
http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  1 02:38:42 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:38:42 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and reality.
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0505311620488822d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200505312301.j4VN1DR30391@tick.javien.com>
	<8d71341e0505311620488822d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0F99BBD-CD37-47FA-ABB7-4C67DDA16745@mac.com>

It was not a reasonable usage when you include the context and  
recognize the usage prejudices the mind toward seeing abortion as  
murder.   Stand alone definitions are not sufficient to conclude  
whether a given usage was reasonable in its context.   And of course  
abortion itself wan]s not remotely the subject at hand so deeper sins  
against context were present.

Such "discussions" leave me tired.

- samantha

On May 31, 2005, at 4:20 PM, Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/1/05, John-C-Wright at sff.net <John-C-Wright at sff.net> wrote:
>
>> Please note that no one in this discussion misunderstood to which  
>> unborn human
>> entity my word referred. There was no misunderstanding: I violated  
>> a political
>> taboo common to a certain stance that I do not share. The pretense  
>> is that all
>> "intelligent" right-thinking men speak the same way using the same  
>> euphamisms on
>> the approved topics. My apologies if I offend, but I am not a  
>> conformist to
>> these particular doctrines, speech codes, habits, or taboos, and  
>> it would be
>> wrong for me to talk as if I were.
>>
>
> While I happen to be on the pro-choice side of the abortion issue,
> John has a point here. There's enough slack in the definitions of the
> words involved that neither usage can be struck out on technical
> grounds. John chooses words that reflect the way he sees things, just
> as his opponents in the debate choose words that reflect theirs. He
> does not demand other people modify their language to match his views;
> he is perfectly entitled to refuse to modify his to match theirs.
>
> - Russell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun  1 03:20:25 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:20:25 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and reality.
In-Reply-To: <A0F99BBD-CD37-47FA-ABB7-4C67DDA16745@mac.com>
References: <200505312301.j4VN1DR30391@tick.javien.com>	<8d71341e0505311620488822d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A0F99BBD-CD37-47FA-ABB7-4C67DDA16745@mac.com>
Message-ID: <429D2979.8070502@neopax.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> It was not a reasonable usage when you include the context and  
> recognize the usage prejudices the mind toward seeing abortion as  
> murder.   

Since when is calling abortion murder a 'prejudice'?
It seems like most people have made a judgement on the matter, not a 
pre-judgement.
Unless, of course, you would not correct me if I said you had a 
prejudice against mass shootings of people into ditches as part of a 
law'n'order campaign.
'Prejudice' assumes that the person against whom the charge is made has 
not examined the facts and that when they do they must inevitably come 
to the same conclusion as you on emotive issues.
It ain't so.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 31/05/2005



From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  1 04:09:01 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:09:01 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: <20050531185250.42631.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506010409.j5149AR08250@tick.javien.com>


I believe in cryonics.  But I need some kind of 
guarantee, just some well-meaning assurance.  That 
some joker won't take my severed frozen head and 
put it face down in Ted Williams' lap.

spike





From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 04:12:33 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:12:33 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: <200506010409.j5149AR08250@tick.javien.com>
References: <20050531185250.42631.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200506010409.j5149AR08250@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e050531211255a3435@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I believe in cryonics.  But I need some kind of
> guarantee, just some well-meaning assurance.  That
> some joker won't take my severed frozen head and
> put it face down in Ted Williams' lap.

Why do you need a guarantee? You surely know that no such thing can be
had; but given the certainty of death without cryonics, why do you
need a guarantee versus trying your chances with it?

- Russell


From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  1 04:21:03 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:21:03 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e050531211255a3435@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200506010421.j514L6R09860@tick.javien.com>

> 
> On 6/1/05, spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > I believe in cryonics.  But I need some kind of
> > guarantee, just some well-meaning assurance.  That
> > some joker won't take my severed frozen head and
> > put it face down in Ted Williams' lap.
> 
> Why do you need a guarantee? You surely know that no such thing can be
> had; but given the certainty of death without cryonics, why do you
> need a guarantee versus trying your chances with it?
> 
> - Russell

In other words, lighten up friends.  Remember when we used to
toss around light hearted gags on extropy chat, mixed with
the more serious stuff.  Check the archives.  It's summer! 
Take Cyndi Lauper's Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and do a 
replace-all of Girls with Extropians.  {8-]

spike






From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  1 04:24:43 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:24:43 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] numb3rs
In-Reply-To: <200506010421.j514L6R09860@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200506010424.j514OjR10303@tick.javien.com>



Someone from work that knows I am a math geek told me
about a TV program called Numb3rs.  Its about a fellow
math geek that solves crimes using math.  Kewalllll!

Anyone here seen that?  How is it?  

spike





From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Wed Jun  1 04:48:41 2005
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:48:41 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
References: <200506010421.j514L6R09860@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <00c501c56665$32c1aa10$0200a8c0@Nano>

Good thing you said that Spike, I was about ready to write a novel length response for you. : )


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm
My New Project: Microscope Jewelry
http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: spike 
  To: 'Russell Wallace' ; 'ExI chat list' 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:21 PM
  Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance


  > 
  > On 6/1/05, spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
  > >
  > > I believe in cryonics.  But I need some kind of
  > > guarantee, just some well-meaning assurance.  That
  > > some joker won't take my severed frozen head and
  > > put it face down in Ted Williams' lap.
  > 
  > Why do you need a guarantee? You surely know that no such thing can be
  > had; but given the certainty of death without cryonics, why do you
  > need a guarantee versus trying your chances with it?
  > 
  > - Russell

  In other words, lighten up friends.  Remember when we used to
  toss around light hearted gags on extropy chat, mixed with
  the more serious stuff.  Check the archives.  It's summer! 
  Take Cyndi Lauper's Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and do a 
  replace-all of Girls with Extropians.  {8-]

  spike




  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  1 05:02:13 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:02:13 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: <00c501c56665$32c1aa10$0200a8c0@Nano>
Message-ID: <200506010502.j5152HR14721@tick.javien.com>

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina Miller
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:49 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance

 

Good thing you said that Spike, I was about ready to write a novel length
response for you. : )

 

 

 

 

I don't mind a novel length response Gina, especially from one who

looks more Cyndi Lauper-like than any other extropian.  {8-](That's a
complement:

I am a big fan of both Lauper and Nanogirl.)  

 

spike

 

 

 



In other words, lighten up friends... 
Take Cyndi Lauper's Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and do a 
replace-all of Girls with Extropians.  {8-]

spike



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From brian at posthuman.com  Wed Jun  1 05:06:52 2005
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:06:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] numb3rs
In-Reply-To: <200506010424.j514OjR10303@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506010424.j514OjR10303@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <429D426C.9090303@posthuman.com>

We watched the whole run of eps (you missed it by now, bittorrent is 
your friend). It's passable...
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  1 06:23:36 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050601062336.85883.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>


--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I believe in cryonics.  But I need some kind of 
> guarantee, just some well-meaning assurance.  That 
> some joker won't take my severed frozen head and 
> put it face down in Ted Williams' lap.
> 

     Spike. If I took this post from you seriously
(which I don't) I would say this: Knowing what I know
of Alcor's procedures I would say that assuming that
Ted Williams picked the option where he got to keep
his lap, he would be upside down, therefore your head,
if it somehow got into his tank, would be on the floor
next to his own head (less distrubing visually). 

      Unless of course the good folks at Alcor took
the time and effort to velcro your head into Mr.
Williams lap. In which case, you have somehow made
such egregious foes at Alcor then I would recommend
that you hold off and wait for the new kids (the guys
that get mice to go into suspended animation using
room temperature H2S) to come out with a start up and
sign on with them. :)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From bchjg at nus.edu.sg  Wed Jun  1 06:44:50 2005
From: bchjg at nus.edu.sg (Jan Gruber)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:44:50 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
Message-ID: <05C5081466660B4A94F371F5D48B59E777D55D@MBOX02.stf.nus.edu.sg>

 
Engineers create robot that can "build almost anything" ( should rather be: Engineers speculate about robot ....):
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/default.stm#
 
I thought this bit of BBC tech news might be of interest - not sure how the electronic components are supposed to be replicated though. I seem to remember that this was discussed here some time ago - anybody know what is the state of the art with this ?
 
All the best,
 
Jan Gruber
 
 
 

	 

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 16:19:11 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:19:11 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Another path to stem cells?
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601111821.01d1a4b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

Robert J. Bradbury posts on another list:

New Scientist is reporting [1] that work from Yuri Verlinsky
in Chicago may have an alternate method for producing ESC
(aka "stembrids") using existing stem cell lines that have
been enucleated followed by the implantation of donor nuclei.
The idea being that the biochemical environment of the prior
stem cells reprograms the gene expression of the nuclei so
the stembrid becomes totipotent.

If this turns out to be real then it means the whole ball of
wax may be up for grabs.  I.e. once we lay our hands on the molecules
that determine the state of the nucleus then it could be possible
to revert the DNA of any nucleus to a stem cell state.  (The
eggs or stem cell lines will probably become non-essential
components of the process.)

It is worth noting two things.  First, that there is some controversy
surrounding the Verlinsky claims and that more work needs to be done to
put the frosting on the cake.  Second is that if it becomes possible
to revert many cells to a stem cell "state" then it will become
more important than ever to determine the condition of the genome
(in terms of accumulated mutations) within those cells.  They have
not had to pass through the development "strainer" for robust
genomes and therefore one does not know what latent mutations
they may have which would impact the development of specific
tissue types.

Robert

1. Double triumph in stem cell quest, New Scientist (25 May 2005)
    Michael Le Page, Rowan Hooper
    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18625014.100&print=true




From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  1 17:15:27 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:15:27 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and reality.
In-Reply-To: <429D2979.8070502@neopax.com>
References: <200505312301.j4VN1DR30391@tick.javien.com>
	<8d71341e0505311620488822d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<A0F99BBD-CD37-47FA-ABB7-4C67DDA16745@mac.com>
	<429D2979.8070502@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <8257C7CA-2ACB-486D-9ED9-1DFAD3814777@mac.com>

Read it again.  You missed the point and I have no patience today for  
nitpicking nonsense.  Being up too late with a dying friend tends to  
change your perspective of what is worth your energy.

On May 31, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>> It was not a reasonable usage when you include the context and   
>> recognize the usage prejudices the mind toward seeing abortion as   
>> murder.
>>
>
> Since when is calling abortion murder a 'prejudice'?
> It seems like most people have made a judgement on the matter, not  
> a pre-judgement.
> Unless, of course, you would not correct me if I said you had a  
> prejudice against mass shootings of people into ditches as part of  
> a law'n'order campaign.
> 'Prejudice' assumes that the person against whom the charge is made  
> has not examined the facts and that when they do they must  
> inevitably come to the same conclusion as you on emotive issues.
> It ain't so.
>
> -- 
> Dirk
>
> The Consensus:-
> The political party for the new millenium
> http://www.theconsensus.org
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 31/05/2005
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  1 18:29:42 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
In-Reply-To: <200506010502.j5152HR14721@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050601182942.50818.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gina
> Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:49 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] frozen assurance
> 
>  
> 
> Good thing you said that Spike, I was about ready to write a novel
> length response for you. : )
> > 
> I don't mind a novel length response Gina, especially from one who
> looks more Cyndi Lauper-like than any other extropian.  {8-](That's a
> complement:
> I am a big fan of both Lauper and Nanogirl.) 

Does spike want his frozen head left in Nanogirls lap???

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From davidmc at gmail.com  Wed Jun  1 18:30:46 2005
From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:30:46 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] "BEST OF LIST": Editors Needed for ExI
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050528110301.02d55638@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050528110301.02d55638@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c934387b05060111302c4df515@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/28/05, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

>  Thanks to ExI's Board member David McFadzean who will be the key person
> behind this sorely needed and highly worthwhile compilation of posts
> outlining the history of ideas that formed transhumanism.  Greg Burch, ExI's
> VP, will be performing the final editing, but we are looking for someone to
> work with us in the initial stages.

If anyone has extropians mailing list archives dating before July
1996, please contact me.

Thx!
David


From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Wed Jun  1 20:30:44 2005
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:30:44 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Vernor Vinge sighting
Message-ID: <429E1AF4.47B7A0F9@Genius.UCSD.edu>

Hi all,

  Vernor Vinge gave a 1 hour lecture last weekend at the
San Diego Mensa Regional Gathering.  The talk was a fairly
standard one based on Moore's Law, covering various future
scenarios:

1. Technology increases to the point of self-destruction,
  whereupon we return to the stone age (assuming we survive),
  either to stay there or to repeat the cycle.

2. Technology reaches a natural (or legally imposed) hardware
  limit, so future advancements can only be made in software
  (giving us the opportunity to perform software archeology,
  and to redesign code to finally get it right, etc.)

3. Technology increases without limit, with the watershed 
  event of AI devices becoming more intelligent than us ...
  in which case we can only guess at what they'll do.

  These topics have all been covered before, here and elsewhere,
in great depth, while his talk was geared for intelligent 
laypeople, so the above summary will suffice.

  During the Questions/Answers portion, I had to ask him about
a scenario he left out:

4. Humans use the superior technology to enhance themselves, 
  thus joining the Cybernetic Revolution themselves.

  Vinge surprised me with what seemed to be a rather pessimistic
answer.  He said I was talking about IA (intelligence amplification),
rather than AI, and that different people would be enhanced in 
different ways, making us unequal, with devastating consequences
in a competitive environment ... we wouldn't be able to trust anyone
but ourselves (I suppose "every man for himself").  Unless I 
misunderstood him, I think this is what he was projecting. 

  Needless to say, I felt rather unsatisfied with his answer.
He seemed casually to dismiss the entire idea of transhumanism,
and to desire relative human egalitarianism.  
  One audience member commented that perhaps the superior AIs
would take us on as pets to be well-cared for.  It seemed to me
that Vinge liked or at least was amused by the idea...

FWIW, John McP


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 20:38:05 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:38:05 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A Framework for Humane
	Globalism/Capitalism/Politics
Message-ID: <160750-2200563120385750@M2W126.mail2web.com>

I am responding to Max's listed reading suggestions I have had time to look
over.  What a collection of ideas from the perspectives of economists,
entrepreneurs, and also on governing, reporting and social responsibility.
A few quick thoughts below: 

1.  New Kind of Entitlement 

** ?De Soto notes that around 90 percent of the population of developing
countries operates outside the formal economy.?

**This is really good.  A few months ago I posted a query regarding
democracy + capitalism (not the bad capitalism folks love to hate, but the
meaning of finance, investment and profit), by which I was looking for
ideas about global commerce and trade and if much of the material I had
been ready by futurists was actually on target or merely a futurist?s
pipedream for bringing poor countries, the developing countries, into the
global arena in order to bring better circumstances to their citizens.  De
Soto would be very worthwhile reading in this regard.
 
2.  The World Bank?s Innovation Market   

**Interesting project - Innovation Marketplace to combat global poverty. 
The 2000 Marketplace judges distributed $5 million across 43 grants,
ranging from $29,000 to $380,000.  
 
3.  Value Shift: Why Companies Must Merge Social and Financial Imperatives
to Achieve 

**I wonder how many corporate executives and their mangers have bought this
book and are following its principles.  It is true, as the book suggests
that corporations have become anthropomorphized ? they have to respond to
characteristics of ethics, just as a person should.  If the truth be told,
businesses do want to please as long as it does not take too much of a bite
out of their pocketbooks.  People are the same as well, by and large. 
Altruism comes in many shapes and sizes.
 
 
4.  Fields of Online Dreams   

**Fabulous!  I like the implications of this type of real-life event.  
 
 
5.  The Great Leap: Driving Innovation From the Base of the Pyramid   

** Economists/businesspeople have a talent.  It would be a strange turn of
events if their talents could be applied to ?transform the poorer economies
while enabling companies from developed countries to continue generating
shareholder value.?
 
 
6.  How To Change the World: Lessons for Entrepreneurs from Activists   

**Scenario planning, whether it be in backcasting, incasting, wheels, or
any other method we strategist use, helps people understand what the
consequences of actions could potentially be, based on future scenarios. 
For transhumanism, this is the method that I use because it offers best
possible futures based on variables that offer different perspectives and
which parameters can be changed showing what could happen ?if?.
 
 
7.  How To Change The World: Social Entrepreneurs and the Power of New Ideas

** ?This is a wonderfully hopeful and enlightening book. The stories of
these social entrepreneurs will inspire and encourage many people who seek
to build a better world.? -Nelson Mandela
 
8.	Social Capitalists: The top 20 groups that are changing the world

**These organizations are focused on performing a specific task for
humanity.  Very impressive.  As an aside thought - Extropy Institute has
been focused on introducing transhumanism to the world, which has been a
big project.  While transhumanist have been reshaping reality to make the
world a better place, it seems small as far as human needs when considering
the milestones of these organizations that accomplish so much.  
 

In Defense of Globalization

**Much of the preconditioned landscape that Bhagwati faced with giving
globalization a ?face? has been the negativity of the word the past two
decades, and more just the past 5 years.  Globalization had once been a
positive, inspiring world.  


The New Pluralism

** Another great suggestion.  ?Much of recent political theory has been
aimed at how to acknowledge and recognize, rather than deny, the diversity
inherent in contemporary life.?  I do think politics is best when applied
to a specific issue and approached from varied points of views to determine
best possible future.

Thanks!

Natasha




--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun  1 20:42:25 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:42:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] the terrifying superscience of the year 2,000!
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601154205.01d92be8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

http://www.ufopop.org/fullimage.php?cid=1950/Superman128.jpg




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  1 21:16:18 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:16:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] the terrifying superscience of the year 2,000!
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601154205.01d92be8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050601211618.7086.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

>
http://www.ufopop.org/fullimage.php?cid=1950/Superman128.jpg


Hey. How did those guys get a hold of a slinky gun?
That's classified top secret by the U.S. government.
;)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  1 22:16:27 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [MATH+BIO] Spanish scientists use math to kill
	cancer cells
Message-ID: <20050601221627.89224.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>

      Apparently the Spanish have used math to model
cancer cell growth and neutrophile responses. They
used their predictions to direct immunotherapy using
GM-CSF a growth factor for a type of white blood cell
called a neutrophile. While this is hardly the "magic
bullet", it did cure a person with terminal liver
cancer (hepatocarcinoma).  




layperson's description
http://www.euroresidentes.com/Blogs/2005/05/spanish-scientists-use-maths-to-cure.htm

Technical papers
http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/2948

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000092000023238101000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 01:18:17 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] the terrifying superscience of the year 2,000!
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601154205.01d92be8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050602011817.74249.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ah, I understand now: he is the man of steel. The helical yellow band
is clearly, therefore, a material stronger than steel, either kevlar,
or perhaps buckyfiber, which is deployed by a motorized vortex
generator to wrap around the man of steel and bind him like a lariat,
helpless.... mwahahahahaha..... now where is my DAMN aircar, the script
quite clearly calls for an aircar in the year 2000, I'm calling my
agent, dammit!!!

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> http://www.ufopop.org/fullimage.php?cid=1950/Superman128.jpg
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 04:51:41 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <20050602011817.74249.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-luddism

I've been doing a lot of work trying to get the wikipedia page on
neo-luddism set up amidst lots of left-wing sabotage and vandalism.
Please check it out and keep an eye on the history of the page, help
maintain the documented info there, and contribute other info you may
be aware of. Thanks.... my edits are under the user name "mlorrey".

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 07:37:46 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Another path to stem cells?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601111821.01d1a4b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050602073746.19648.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> Robert J. Bradbury posts on another list:
> If this turns out to be real then it means the whole
> ball of
> wax may be up for grabs.  I.e. once we lay our hands
> on the molecules
> that determine the state of the nucleus then it
> could be possible
> to revert the DNA of any nucleus to a stem cell
> state.  (The
> eggs or stem cell lines will probably become
> non-essential
> components of the process.)

This approach will run into a problem. From molecular
studies of mouse development, we know that part of the
genetic program of cell differentiation as the mouse
embryo develops involves methylation of various genes
to silence them as the cell starts to specialize into
a particular tissue. In other words, the cells
"permanently" shut off a large number of genes after
they have done their job in development. 

The whole point of using an oocyte in the cloning
process is that the egg contains enzymes that
demethylate all of the genes during the zygote stage,
effectively "rebooting" the genetic program and making
all genes available for transcription once again. The
egg cell is like the reset button of the genetic
operating system. If you try to do a nuclear transfer
into an ES cell, the DNA would not be able to fully
reset and this theoretically would limit these cells
to some form of pluripotency instead of totipotency.

This was a quick and dirty explanation. See the
following link for a more thorough review:

http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/1/11



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jun  2 13:05:32 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:05:32 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050602011817.74249.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050602080524.026c6628@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Thanks Mike - will do.

Natasha

At 11:51 PM 6/1/2005, you wrote:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-luddism
>
>I've been doing a lot of work trying to get the wikipedia page on
>neo-luddism set up amidst lots of left-wing sabotage and vandalism.
>Please check it out and keep an eye on the history of the page, help
>maintain the documented info there, and contribute other info you may
>be aware of. Thanks.... my edits are under the user name "mlorrey".
>
>Mike Lorrey
>Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Discover Yahoo!
>Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
>http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
[_______________________________________________
President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org
[_____________________________________________________
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness..." Anne Herbet

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From pgptag at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 14:59:35 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:59:35 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Spanish scientists cure terminal liver cancer
Message-ID: <470a3c5205060207597737ddd6@mail.gmail.com>

Spain Herald <http://www.spainherald.com/2005-05-31news.html>: Spanish 
researchers led by professor Antonio Bru, of the applied mathematics 
department at the Complutense university in Madrid, succeeded in curing a 
patient in the terminal phase of liver cancer through strengthening the 
patient's immune system. Bru stated that this form of therapy "opens very 
hopeful horizons" against all kinds of solid tumors within a short time, as 
according to his theory they all have a common pattern. The therapy, 
published today in the Journal of Clinical Research, is the result of twelve 
years of research. A mathematical solution to liver cancer was considered, 
equations were analyzed, and experiments on animals were performed. In 1998 
a new theory was proposed, according to which solid tumors develop according 
to a mathematical equation, said the Complutense. Therapy was applied to a 
terminal patient, given two months to live, with liver cancer, hepatitis C, 
and cirrhosis. The treatment consisted of bone marrow stimulation and the 
generation of large amounts of neutrophiles, a kind of leucocyte that 
impedes tumor development. According to the Complutense, the liver cancer 
remitted and the patient was able to return to work as a high school teacher 
within months, suffering only mild side effects. Besides Bru, Sonia Albertos 
of the San Carlos clinical hospital and Fernando Garcia-Hoz of the Ramon y 
Cajal hospital in Madrid participated in the research. The treatment took 
place at the Clinica de Valle in Madrid.
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun  2 16:17:21 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:17:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Another path to stem cells?
In-Reply-To: <20050602073746.19648.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050601111821.01d1a4b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050602073746.19648.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050602111533.01ed2c70@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


>[Robert J. Bradbury responds:]

 > This was a quick and dirty explanation. See the
 > following link for a more thorough review:
 >
 > http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/1/11

This is a rather old article (2000).

More up to date is:
DNA demethylation is necessary for the epigenetic reprogramming of
somatic cell nuclei.  Simonsson S, Gurdon J.
Nat Cell Biol 2004 Oct;6(10):984-90
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15448701

[Damien:]
I'd assumed that the stembrid method would do the
demethylation, among other necessary things.

[Robert:]
Yes, obviously a "reset" has to occur.  The question is how
that may be accomplished?  Obviously if the oocytes or eggs
have the proper demethylase(s) turned on then it should not
be too difficiult to either turn them on in non-eggs/oocytes
or if that proves difficult to add them (heck if one can
inject a nucleus then injecting a bunch of purified proteins
in addition can't be *that* difficult).   And it isn't as if
we don't have the whole human genome and don't know *what*
the demethylase enzymes/complexes *are* (start with MBD1/2/3/4).
They also appear to be involved in histone deacetylation
[though I do not claim to be an expert in this area].

I would imagine that a "clever" way to work around the whole
"an embryo is life" problem is to use the reset proteins from
other species.  I would expect these have to be highly conserved
during evolution.  Mess with this function and you probably
break eukaryotic reproduction.

================

Damien Broderick 




From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com  Thu Jun  2 17:14:41 2005
From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:14:41 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <429F3E81.5070603@dsl.pipex.com>

Do we have our own wiki?  I've been thinking lately it would be nice to 
have a database of our opponents so that, if you're replying to an 
article or engaging in a debate, you can just type in the names of the 
people and organisations involved and get all the information you need.  
If it was kept private (or parts of it were, at least) we could even 
scan/OCR relevant books and articles.

BM


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 17:23:43 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <429F3E81.5070603@dsl.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <20050602172343.37829.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The closest I think is Neal Stephenson's Metaweb.com, but that is
focused mostly on his fiction, though I've taken advantage of the
opportunity to write articles on transhumanist, ancap, and libertarian
ideas that he includes in his books. There is currently an effort
underway to really annotate The Diamond Age well. I've been working on
Snow Crash and Cryptonomicon as well as his Baroque Cycle books.

--- Bryan Moss <bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Do we have our own wiki?  I've been thinking lately it would be nice
> to 
> have a database of our opponents so that, if you're replying to an 
> article or engaging in a debate, you can just type in the names of
> the 
> people and organisations involved and get all the information you
> need.  
> If it was kept private (or parts of it were, at least) we could even 
> scan/OCR relevant books and articles.
> 
> BM
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 17:26:25 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Neat article on N.A. reforestation...
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050602080524.026c6628@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050602172625.87311.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

There is a neat article here by our friend Peter Huber on how north
american reforestation has occured, why, and how the greens try to hide
the fact:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_latimes-how_nongreen_cities.htm

How Non-Green Cities Are Rebuilding the American Forests 
Wednesday, December 29, 1999

Anti-sprawl activists hide the resurgence of the continent's woodlands.


By PETER HUBER, MARK MILLS

For the United States as a whole, wealth and city overtook poverty and
country some time around 1920. Until then, the effects of immigration,
increasing life span and rising demand for food outweighed the effects
of rising agricultural productivity and declining fertility. As a
result, forests contracted. 

Around 1920, however, the balance shifted, and forests began to expand
once again.The upshot has been a truly remarkable, if little noted,
environmental reversal: the steadyreforestation of the North American
continent. 

When Europeans first arrived--after millenniums of deforestation by
fire, promoted by

American Indians--the area now represented by the lower 48 United
States had about 950 million acres of forest. That area shrank steadily
until about 1920, to a low of 600 million acres. It has been rising
ever since. Just how fast is hard to pin down; the continent is large,
most of the land is privately owned and definitional debates rage. Yet
all analyses show more, not less, forest land in the U.S. And all agree
that about 80 million more acres of cropland were harvested 60 years
ago than are harvested today. Most of this land is on its way to being
reforested too. At least 10 million acres have been reforested since
1987 alone. Thus, for the first time in history, a Western nation has
halted and is now rapidly reversing the decline of its woodlands.

Why do so many of us believe just the opposite? We've been spun.

Green activists and their political friends publicize only half of the
environmental ledger and play a shell game with definitions. They're
engaged in a great, green fraud. The anti-sprawl activists often count
as developed land about 90 million acres of farmsteads, field
windbreaks, barren land and marshland. This rural land has nothing to
do with any reasonable definition of urban sprawl or even of
development. Yet the activists need these 90 million acres because, if
they admitted that cities and their suburbs covered only a tiny 3% of
the continental U.S., who could take their fear of sprawl seriously?
That extra 90 million acres makes it seem as if the sprawling cities
cover 150 million acres, more than double the real number. This begins
to sound like quite a lot, though it is still only 8% of the 48
contiguous states.

"The city" itself is all the more kind to the environment because it
has so completely rejected the policies that the green establishment
holds dearest. It shuns renewables. The city isn't animal or vegetable;
it's mineral. Start with construction. The city certainly favors
nonrenewable resources here, and about that, at least, the green
establishment remains silent, as it should. The U.S. now harvests about
240 million tons of wood each year, almost all of it for construction.
The city, however, prefers to build with the three-dimensional
resources, steel and concrete. Those materials can hold up a
skyscraper; renewable wood can't.

The way we build things now, a comparatively tiny area of land
yields--from far beneath its surface--all the mineral resources that it
takes to build a city. You can't get any greener than that. The energy
picture looks much the same. There's no way the city could ever adopt
the green establishment's "renewable" path to energy. Live on a
good-size spread in the country and harvest it aggressively, and you
can plausibly imagine living off the renewable sources of energy the
greens so strongly favor. Live in the city, and you can't, not on your
own acres. You have no acres. Nevertheless, you have tremendous energy
efficiency when your energy comes from an oil well and refinery and
gets delivered by tanker. The supplies are highly concentrated to begin
with, and it takes relatively little energy to deliver them to a highly
concentrated point of use, like a city.

Cities have become environment-friendly by rejecting the greens' food
policies too--the policies that emphasize organic farming, free of
bioengineered seeds, man-made fertilizers and pesticides. When food is
grown or raised in the agricultural counterpart to the oil well--the
mammoth factory farm, outfitted with every high-tech innovation--it
takes relatively little land to produce it in the first place, and it
takes little additional energy to deliver it to the tightly packed
city. The city is green not only because its residents occupy little
land, but because its non-green sources of building materials, fuel and
food--and their delivery systems--can be frugal with land too.

By building the city up out of nonrenewable resources, by heating and
lighting it with nonrenewable fuels and by feeding it with non-organic
foods preserved with chemicals or plastic packaging, the city returns
acre upon acre of land in the country to wilderness, the greenest
accomplishment of all. Nature has enormous power to cleanse and
restore; freeing up 95 million acres to be reclaimed by watershed and
forest has surely done more to clean water and protect birds than the
curtailing of pesticides ever achieved.

- - - Peter Huber Is the Author of "Hard Green" From Basic Books and a
Fellow of the Manhattan Institute. Mark Mills Is a Senior Fellow of the
Competitive Enterprise Institute. This Piece Is Adapted From an Article
in City Journal Magazine

?1999 The Los Angeles Times



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
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From davidmc at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 17:34:21 2005
From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:34:21 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <429F3E81.5070603@dsl.pipex.com>
References: <20050602045141.39053.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<429F3E81.5070603@dsl.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <c934387b05060210345afec333@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/05, Bryan Moss <bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Do we have our own wiki?  

No, but I will discuss the idea with the other directors.

David


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun  2 18:12:22 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:12:22 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Neat article on N.A. reforestation...
In-Reply-To: <20050602172625.87311.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050602080524.026c6628@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
	<20050602172625.87311.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0506021112133b9ba@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is a neat article here by our friend Peter Huber on how north
> american reforestation has occured, why, and how the greens try to hide
> the fact:
> http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_latimes-how_nongreen_cities.htm
> 

The big concern of 'the greens' nowadays is tropical rain forest deforestation.

See: Global Deforestation
<http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/deforest.html>

Quote:
"Historical trends:

Until quite recently, most of the deforestation occurred in Europe,
North Africa, and the Middle East. By the beginning of this century,
these regions had been mostly converted from the original cover. Now,
deforestation in these regions has stabilized and regrowth is
occurring (though second growth forests have quite different
character, see below). In the last few decades, the vast majority of
deforestation has occurred in the tropics - and the pace still
accelerates. The removal of tropical forests in Latin America is
proceeding at a pace of about 2% per year. In Africa, the pace is
about 0.8% per year and in Asia it is 2% per year.

The USA has already experienced its wave of deforestation, with the
exception of small areas in the west and Alaska.  Our old growth
forests were mostly harvested by 1920, particularly in the East. 
Pacific Northwest forests and UP Michigan forests were heavily cut
after 1920 until quite recently, and harvest of old growth continues
today in Southeast Alaska.  Interestingly, deforestation rates at
their peak in the Midwest were ~2% annually, about the rates now seen
in Amazonia.  At that rate, how much of existing forest will remain in
70 years?  Just one-fourth.  However, much forest re-growth has
occurred in the eastern USA during the 20th Century, although these
second-growth forests differ in structure and composition from their
predecessors."

BillK


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  2 18:36:55 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:36:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Neat article on N.A. reforestation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0506021112133b9ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050602183655.98121.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/2/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > There is a neat article here by our friend Peter Huber on how north
> > american reforestation has occured, why, and how the greens try to
> hide
> > the fact:
> >
>
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_latimes-how_nongreen_cities.htm
> > 
> 
> The big concern of 'the greens' nowadays is tropical rain forest
> deforestation.
> "In the last few decades, the vast majority of
> deforestation has occurred in the tropics - and the pace still
> accelerates. The removal of tropical forests in Latin America is
> proceeding at a pace of about 2% per year. In Africa, the pace is
> about 0.8% per year and in Asia it is 2% per year.
> snip...
>  Interestingly, deforestation rates at
> their peak in the Midwest were ~2% annually, about the rates now seen
> in Amazonia.  At that rate, how much of existing forest will remain
> in
> 70 years?  Just one-fourth.  However, much forest re-growth has
> occurred in the eastern USA during the 20th Century, although these
> second-growth forests differ in structure and composition from their
> predecessors."

The problem with this "structure and composition" nonsense is what it
leaves out: that eastern forests now boast more wildlife, more
diversity of species, than the previous near-monocultures that existed
in so many areas, particularly the great pine barrens, before the
agricultural trends here cleared so much out. There are now more deer
and moose in the wild in NH than there were before the advent of
europeans here, as one example. Walking in my backyard I can see 6-12
species of wild grown trees, any number of plants, plus frogs and
salamanders in the shallow forest pools. A large moose walked past my
driveway a few days before I got home from Florida. Bear are occasional
pedestrians in the neighborhood, along with a few species of fox,
squirrels, grouse, turkeys, owls, mice, porcupines, otters, pine
martens and fisher cats getting in the mix. Coyotes are a road problem
and wolves are reported occasionally.

Torpical forest regrows much quicker than temperate forests (look at
any pacific island that was once a US military base), generally twice
as quick. This means you need twice the rate of deforestation to reach
the same amount of cumulative deforestation. So, sorry, the numbers
just aren't there.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From John-C-Wright at sff.net  Thu Jun  2 19:35:18 2005
From: John-C-Wright at sff.net (John-C-Wright at sff.net)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:35:18 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
Message-ID: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>

Mr. Broderick writes: "It's petty of me, I suppose, but I think if you're going
to (sic) someone for a typo you might try getting your own subject line and
in-text spelling of "euphemism" right.

It is not petty at all, my good sir: a man who makes as many mistakes as I do
welcomes any and all corrections. (I was (sic)ing Mr. Paatsch because I thought
he meant I was being was provocative, not pejorative.)

JCW 






From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun  2 22:57:53 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:57:53 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Life Extension on "Prime Time Live" tonight
Message-ID: <429F8EF1.40908@humanenhancement.com>

 From http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/

 > On Thursday, June 2 at 10 p.m. ET:
 >
 > Getting the edge: "Primetime Live" explores surprising "shortcuts" 
that some are
 > taking in the eternal quest for health, success and pleasure.

And from the folks who bring you the drug Protandim (they're saying 
"Featured on Primetime Live" on their website):

 > The revolutionary anti-aging product, Protandim, will be featured
 > tonight on ABC News? PrimeTime Live.
 >
 > 10 PM (East Coast and West Coast)
 > 9 PM (Central and Mountain)
 >
 > Tune in to learn more about how to defend yourself against aging.

I've never heard of Protandim myself, but the show seems like it's going 
to be covering a broader variety of anti-aging techniques, albeit 
somewhat sceptically.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 5/29/05)


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun  2 23:08:35 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:08:35 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] New Email List: TransTelevision
Message-ID: <429F9173.40006@humanenhancement.com>

The sharper observers among you will have noticed that I cc'd my 
heads-up about tonight's Prime Time Live segment on life extension to a 
new email list, called TransTelevision at yahoogroups.com.

It's something I've set up to allow us to share those kinds of 
announcements, letting each other know when television shows of 
potential interest to the >H community are coming up. From the 
description on Yahoogroups:

"A place to receive timely alerts regarding television programs that are 
or could be of interest to the Transhumanist community. This will 
include mostly science-oriented programming related to biotechnology, 
artificial intelligence, space exploration, etc. but could also include 
certain science fiction programming and other fare as well."

It's moderated to avoid spam, and I'll be looking to appoint some other 
moderators if it seems to be popular.

You can sign up here if you have a (free) Yahoogroups account:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/TransTelevision/

or send an email to:

TransTelevision-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

Enjoy!

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 5/29/05)



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Thu Jun  2 23:57:53 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:57:53 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The future of pizza delivery?
Message-ID: <000901c567ce$e4b617f0$0100a8c0@kevin>


Have any of you seen this?
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pizzacall 
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From reason at longevitymeme.org  Fri Jun  3 00:10:26 2005
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .)
Date: Thu,  2 Jun 2005 19:10:26 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Life Extension on "Prime Time Live" tonight
Message-ID: <200506021910.AA470614174@longevitymeme.org>


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com>

>
>And from the folks who bring you the drug Protandim (they're saying 
>"Featured on Primetime Live" on their website):

Ah, Protandim; read these before buying anything Lifeline has to sell:

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000412.php
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=69&t=2082&hl=protandim&s=

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
 
             


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Jun  3 00:15:39 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:15:39 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Asperger kid
Message-ID: <429FA12B.1070806@mindspring.com>

[Yesterday there was a great article about Lewis Schofield, 9, in the
paper. He has Asperger Syndrome, ADD, obsessive-compulsive disorder,
oppositional defiance disorder, severe allergies, asthma and learning
disabilities. His website is interesting! Check it out, and since he has
no friends, why not email him? I've copied one of his stories below. -
Kelly]

http://www.thisislewis.net

How old are you?
    
On my 6th birthday, the bus driver who took my mom and me to the
daycare centre, asked me how old I was that day.  
    
"Today, I'm 3, 5, 7, 10, 16, 18, 25, 32 and 48," I answered.  He
scrunched up his face at me, surprised at my answer.
    
"But Lewis," he said with a smile on his face, "I thought today was your
birthday. Aren't you turning 6 today?" I jumped for a minute. I didn't
realize the bus driver meant how old was my body.  I thought he meant
how old was I -- Lewis -- on the day that just happened to be my
birthday.
    
"Well,yes, today my body is 6," I answered, "but the rest of me is 3, 5,
7, 10, 16, 18, 25, 32 and 48."
    
"How can you be all those ages at once if your body is only 6?" he
asked.
    
I took a moment to get the words just right in my head and then said,
"You see, I have many abilities but they aren't all at the same level. 
So today, I'm 3, 5, 7, 10, 16, 18, 25, 32 and 48.  And my body is 6."

? Lewis 2001



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Fri Jun  3 00:47:56 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:47:56 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Life Extension on "Prime Time Live" tonight
In-Reply-To: <200506021910.AA470614174@longevitymeme.org>
References: <200506021910.AA470614174@longevitymeme.org>
Message-ID: <429FA8BC.10404@humanenhancement.com>

As I said, I don't really care about that particular drug one way or the 
other. Just thought folks might be interested in a mainstream media 
program that seems like it's covering life extension...

Joseph

Reason . wrote:

>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com>
>
>  
>
>>And from the folks who bring you the drug Protandim (they're saying 
>>"Featured on Primetime Live" on their website):
>>    
>>
>
>Ah, Protandim; read these before buying anything Lifeline has to sell:
>
>http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000412.php
>http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=69&t=2082&hl=protandim&s=
>
>Reason
>Founder, Longevity Meme
> 
>             
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From pgptag at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 05:15:18 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:15:18 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
Message-ID: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com>

Now this has made it to
Slashdot<http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/31/2240240>
:* A group of scientists have developed a mathematical method to fight 
certain forms of
cancer<http://www.euroresidentes.com/Blogs/2005/05/spanish-scientists-use-maths-to-cure.htm>.
The study has taken the team several years, but the first trial on a human 
has been successful. You can read the actual
paper<http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/2948>.
It looks like a huge advancement in science, because there's a possibility 
to extrapolate the method to other types of cancer"* From the article: *"The 
researchers have evidence to show that all tumors grow in the same way, 
irrespective of the tissue or species in which they develop. In a previous 
paper, these researchers reported that tumor growth, rather than being 
exponential as commonly believed, is a much slower "linear" process similar 
to the growth of certain crystals and other natural phenomena.*
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun  3 05:26:21 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:26:21 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] LUDDISM: Neat article on N.A. reforestation...
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0506021112133b9ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200506030526.j535QUR17300@tick.javien.com>


> ...BillK
...
> 
> The USA has already experienced its wave of deforestation, with the
> exception of small areas in the west and Alaska...
> 
> BillK

This is what convinced me that the Kyoto agreement was not
really about reducing greenhouse gases: it didn't take into
account reforestation.  It focused only on CO2 *production*,
not CO2 reduction by growing wood and leaves.  

Anecdote: in 1844 a number of William Miller's followers
gathered on his farm on Ascension Rock in upstate New York
to await the expected apocalypse.  Paintings made by the 
disappointed apocalypsers show farmland in all directions.  
If you go there now, all you see is really big forest, really 
dense, huge trunks, too jungley to walk in.  All that was
farmland 1.5 centuries ago, but the economic breakeven
line moved steadily south.  It might be an interesting 
exercise to estimate the *net* CO2 production by nation.  It
might turn out that the developing nations are the greenhouse
bad guys, and the US and Europe are green in comparison.

But it must wait.  I hafta go play amateur cowboy this weekend.  

spike   






From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun  3 07:47:21 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:47:21 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0C1FAE0-E0ED-4ED1-BA6B-66196730F5F0@mac.com>

What the heck is "a mathematical formula to strengthen the immune  
system"?  This is a  peculiar phrase.   The snippet "the evolution of  
solid tumors depends on a mathematical equation" isn't a lot  
better.   Was this article translated from another language?  Does  
anyone have a fish I can stick in my ear?

To think I gave up on a career as a mathematician before realizing  
the full power of mere equations to heal the terminally ill!

The underlying story is no doubt interesting stuff but it got a bit  
garbled along the way.

- s

On Jun 2, 2005, at 10:15 PM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote:

> Now this has made it to Slashdot: A group of scientists have  
> developed a mathematical method to fight certain forms of cancer.  
> The study has taken the team several years, but the first trial on  
> a human has been successful. You can read the actual paper. It  
> looks like a huge advancement in science, because there's a  
> possibility to extrapolate the method to other types of cancer"  
> From the article: "The researchers have evidence to show that all  
> tumors grow in the same way, irrespective of the tissue or species  
> in which they develop. In a previous paper, these researchers  
> reported that tumor growth, rather than being exponential as  
> commonly believed, is a much slower "linear" process similar to the  
> growth of certain crystals and other natural phenomena.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 07:57:11 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:57:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] The future of pizza delivery?
In-Reply-To: <000901c567ce$e4b617f0$0100a8c0@kevin>
References: <000901c567ce$e4b617f0$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05060300572fcc22b6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/05, kevinfreels.com wrote:
>   
> Have any of you seen this? 
> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pizzacall  
>

This has been going around on the Internet for a while. 
Mike Lorrey posted the text to Extropy-chat Jan 04, 2004.

I think the Flash application comes from the ACLU site (anti-Bush site).
<http://www.aclu.org/pizza/>
It was mentioned in the Boing Boing blog July 26, 2004.

Quote from ACLU:
"The government and corporations are aggressively collecting
information about your personal life and your habits. They want to
track your purchases, your medical records, and even your
relationships. The Bush Administration's policies, coupled with
invasive new technologies, could eliminate your right to privacy
completely. Please help us protect our privacy rights and prevent the
Total Surveillance Society."

BillK


From scerir at libero.it  Fri Jun  3 08:38:01 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:38:01 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
References: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B0C1FAE0-E0ED-4ED1-BA6B-66196730F5F0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c56817$8dd85a30$6ec21b97@administxl09yj>

Samantha Atkins
> Was this article translated from another language?

full paper here (I did not read it)
http://www.aecientificos.es/empresas/aecientificos/documentos/BiophysicalJou
rnal.pdf

as far as I know Volterra-Lotka integrodifferential
equations can - in principle - provide the general
behaviour. At least they can provide the best
*timing* for treatments, rays, chemio, etc.




From pgptag at gmail.com  Fri Jun  3 13:50:26 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:50:26 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
In-Reply-To: <002d01c56817$8dd85a30$6ec21b97@administxl09yj>
References: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<B0C1FAE0-E0ED-4ED1-BA6B-66196730F5F0@mac.com>
	<002d01c56817$8dd85a30$6ec21b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <470a3c52050603065046ed98ce@mail.gmail.com>

This is also my understanding: timing drug release and othet
intervention of the basis of a mathematical model of the (supposedly
universal) dynamic law of the evolution of tumors. I found this very
interesting because I had often thought similar things.
In passing: I am sure *many* have thought similar things at some or
some other moment, but this does not decrease the unique merit of the
one guy (Prof. Bru) who decided to dedicate a large chunk of his life
to developing the idea.
Will it work? Only time and experiment will tell. But the idea is interesting.
G.

On 6/3/05, scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:
> Samantha Atkins
> > Was this article translated from another language?
> 
> full paper here (I did not read it)
> http://www.aecientificos.es/empresas/aecientificos/documentos/BiophysicalJou
> rnal.pdf
> 
> as far as I know Volterra-Lotka integrodifferential
> equations can - in principle - provide the general
> behaviour. At least they can provide the best
> *timing* for treatments, rays, chemio, etc.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  3 13:53:49 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
In-Reply-To: <002d01c56817$8dd85a30$6ec21b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <20050603135349.18219.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:

> Samantha Atkins
> > Was this article translated from another language?
> 
> full paper here (I did not read it)
>
http://www.aecientificos.es/empresas/aecientificos/documentos/BiophysicalJou
> rnal.pdf
> 
> as far as I know Volterra-Lotka integrodifferential
> equations can - in principle - provide the general
> behaviour. At least they can provide the best
> *timing* for treatments, rays, chemio, etc.

One of the problems with chemo and radiation therapies is that  they
are more toxic to the patient than the tumor is, often, so it is
frequently just a race to kill the tumor before the patient dies from
the treatment. A better treatment protocol would improve the odds.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From hemm at openlink.com.br  Fri Jun  3 14:37:09 2005
From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:37:09 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Asperger kid
References: <429FA12B.1070806@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <164b01c56849$b918d1c0$fe00a8c0@HEMM>

Funny kid. The french class story is priceless.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; <skeptic at listproc.hcf.jhu.edu>; "Down Syndrome" <DOWN-SYN at LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Asperger kid


[Yesterday there was a great article about Lewis Schofield, 9, in the
paper. He has Asperger Syndrome, ADD, obsessive-compulsive disorder,
oppositional defiance disorder, severe allergies, asthma and learning
disabilities. His website is interesting! Check it out, and since he has
no friends, why not email him? I've copied one of his stories below. -
Kelly]

http://www.thisislewis.net

How old are you?
(...)


From John-C-Wright at sff.net  Fri Jun  3 16:31:39 2005
From: John-C-Wright at sff.net (John-C-Wright at sff.net)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:31:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
Message-ID: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>

Or perhaps not so famous; or perhaps a polite difference of opinion rather than
an act of public self destruction. 

Mr. Beauregard is alarmed that my manners have been displayed with less than
grace in public. Allow me to reassure him that the result is not so terrifying
as he fears. 

It seemed to me as if I were making a logical argument, followed with what I
admit was a heated rhetorical flourish. Let us glance at the argument one last
time, and then at the flourish.

The argument, as it stands, is unexceptional. The first axiom is that parents
have a duty to care for their children, which means, to protect and love them,
and safeguard their health. As far as I can tell, no one disputes this axiom. 

The second axiom is that to will the result implies to will the means necessary
for that result. This axiom is based on the nature of cause and effect. A duty
to produce a given effect, logically implies a duty to effectuate the cause
leading to the effect.

Children pass through a foetal stage of development in the womb. The health of
the child at a later stage is dependent on the health at the foetal stage. 

If the foetus is safeguarded by proper prenatal care, a healthy child might be
born. If the foetus is aborted, a healthy child cannot be born: indeed, the
preventing of the birth of a healthy child is the sole purpose of an abortion.
Again, as far as I can tell, no one disputes this.

Prenatal care is logically implied from the duty to care for the child. This is
a direct deduction from my first two axioms. Prenatal care and abortion are
mutually exclusive. One cannot kill the foetus and bear a healthy child. Indeed,
the child after abortion is as unhealthy as it is possible to be: namely, dead. 

Therefore the duty to safeguard the health of the child logically excludes the
option of aborting the child. QED. 

I can see how this argument might provoke honest disagreement; I do not see how
one can honestly conclude the author of it is suffering a mental breakdown. 

To dispute the argument, one must either dispute the common notions on which it
is based, or detect an error in the reasoning. Merely insisting on one term as
opposed to another in the chain of logic does not affect the outcome. It does
not matter whether you call the child a ?product of conception? or ?foetus? or
?a mass of cells? or a ?banana.? One can substitute x and y values for the terms
in the equation, but if the values point to the same object in reality, the
outcome of the equation is the same. 

Now it is with some embarrassment I turn to my heated rhetoric. Obviously not
everyone who supports aborticide gets a sick thrill from it. Some are reptilian
in their callousness, some are sincere and innocent. So the comment was
impolite, and, what is much worse, illogical. To bring up the motives of the
opposition in a debate is argumentum ad Hominem. Ad Hominem is an informal
logical error. I confess. 

In case the point of my little story was not clear, let me emphasize it. I was
not an antiabortionist at the time a doctor approached me and tried to persuade
me to extinguish my son (or, if your ears are too delicate to hear things called
by the right names, let us call him the mass of cells having the potential to be
my son). What the doctor was asking me to extinguish, in effect, were all those
golden days in which I now rejoice. Had I heeded his counsel, those days would
have been lost to me. 

All my joy would have been lost.

And I never would have known the degree of the loss. My son?s first footstep,
his first word, or for that matter his last word, or any grandchildren I might
otherwise enjoy, would have also been aborted from my life. 

Now, just to make this clear, let me repeat that I would have lost all those
things from my life whether or not my son was a human being or was a person or
was a foetus at the time the abortion was contemplated. Obviously, had he been
extinguished at an early stage of development, all the later stages, including
the rest of his life, would have also been extinguished. The loss to me would
have been the same, no matter at what stage, early or late, the extinction took
place.  

So even if it is outrageous for me to impute a sick motive to those who promote
aborticide, I nonetheless submit to your candid judgment that there is a sick
atmosphere to the argument, in that it degrades the seriousness (the sacredness,
if you will) with which we cherish human life, born and unborn. 

The other point of my little story is that my wife is a heroine: but the
pro-abortion argument spits at her sacrifice and bravery. Mothers facing birth
are as soldiers facing battle or sailors facing a storm at sea: it is a labor
which will call upon her deepest reserves of courage and fortitude, perhaps at
the cost of her life. To tell mothers that this sacrifice is being made for a
non-person, and to tell her it is a reasonable alternative to sacrifice her
child to her own self-interest, robs the labor of any honor. Birth labor is now
merely pain suffered for the sake of a non-person, which is as much to say, for
no real reason. 

There is also something ghoulish about the whole topic.

You see, I sometimes wonder what they do with the bodies. I am not talking about
abortion in the first week to ten days: I mean abortions in the seventh or ninth
month of pregnancy. I mean the fully developed babies whose only crime is that
they are not yet out of the womb. 

Where do they heap up the bodies? 

Are they in a pile somewhere, with little blue arms and legs sticking up at odd
angles, tiny fingers and toes motionless, toothless mouths and eye sockets
swarming with maggots? Do they inter them in a graveyard? (I assume they do not
inter them: the ACLU sued to prevent the burial of aborted children in at least
one jurisdiction.) I assume the bodies are disposed of as medical waste, put in
little plastic bags, and dumped in a landfill. 

Now, logically, if we accept the premise of the abortion argument, that these
are not the bodies of persons, not the bodies of human beings, then there can be
no moral objection to disposing of them as we would any other livestock. If
humanity or personhood is a characteristic acquired after birth, then anyone
deprived of life before birth has no claim on that status, even if he is
otherwise fully developed, and his corpse need not be treated with the
melancholy respect we normally bestow upon the beloved departed. 

Theoretically, there should be no moral objection to grinding them up and
serving them as Soylent Green.  

Now then, reasonable people can disagree on this point. The argument on either
side is not so certain as to compel universal consent. 

And to soothe Mr. Beauregard's fret, let me hasten to add that reasonable people
can even buy and read books by eccentric authors, no matter how distasteful the
author's opinion is on unrelated topics, provided he can still tell an
entertaining tale. 

My disagreements here are with ideas, not with people. My goal should be to
disagree without being disagreeable. 

JCW




From scerir at libero.it  Fri Jun  3 16:56:56 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:56:56 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Cancer with Math
References: <470a3c52050602221542e891f5@mail.gmail.com><B0C1FAE0-E0ED-4ED1-BA6B-66196730F5F0@mac.com><002d01c56817$8dd85a30$6ec21b97@administxl09yj>
	<470a3c52050603065046ed98ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c5685d$406eaf10$adb81b97@administxl09yj>

Giu1i0:
> This is also my understanding: timing drug release and othet
> intervention of the basis of a mathematical model of the (supposedly
> universal) dynamic law of the evolution of tumors.

Mike:
> One of the problems with chemo and radiation therapies is that  they
> are more toxic to the patient than the tumor is, often, so it is
> frequently just a race to kill the tumor before the patient dies from
> the treatment. A better treatment protocol would improve the odds.
 
Yes (to both).
Give a look:
http://mct.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/2/9/919




From mike99 at lascruces.com  Fri Jun  3 17:14:08 2005
From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:14:08 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
Message-ID: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKMEHBEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>

I've added a bit to the Right-wing Neo-Luddism section concerning the
Discovery Institute.


Regards,

Michael LaTorra

mike99 at lascruces.com
mlatorra at nmsu.edu

"For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes
towards slavery."
-- Jacob Bronowski

"Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
-- Eugen Leitl

Member:
Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org
Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
http://ieet.org/
Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org




From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun  3 17:22:30 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:22:30 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	at	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <AA34FF5A-9097-41C4-BBEC-17CB98A709B6@mac.com>

A fetus is not a child until it is granted that status by the woman  
carrying it.  Otherwise women are subject to unbidden duties by any  
failure in contraceptive viability (if available) or any lapse in  
attentiveness to such protections.    Where do you get the jump that  
it is a duty to have children?

The entire notion of when a set of cells becomes a human child with  
all the rights and duties attending thereto is hotly debated.  Is a  
blastocyst a "child"?   Are the sperm and egg before union somehow a  
"child"?  Does it take a sperm and an egg?  If we take an unfertilzed  
egg and replace its nucleus with the nucleus from an adult cell from  
say the adult's finger is the result also a "child"?

Your anecdote makes your attachment to the argument understandable  
but it does not give you the means to claim that you have proven  
abortion is murder or that every pregnant woman has the duty despite  
all her needs and wishes to carry to term.

- samantha

On Jun 3, 2005, at 9:31 AM, John-C-Wright at sff.net wrote:

> Or perhaps not so famous; or perhaps a polite difference of opinion  
> rather than
> an act of public self destruction.
>
> Mr. Beauregard is alarmed that my manners have been displayed with  
> less than
> grace in public. Allow me to reassure him that the result is not so  
> terrifying
> as he fears.
>
> It seemed to me as if I were making a logical argument, followed  
> with what I
> admit was a heated rhetorical flourish. Let us glance at the  
> argument one last
> time, and then at the flourish.
>
> The argument, as it stands, is unexceptional. The first axiom is  
> that parents
> have a duty to care for their children, which means, to protect and  
> love them,
> and safeguard their health. As far as I can tell, no one disputes  
> this axiom.
>
> The second axiom is that to will the result implies to will the  
> means necessary
> for that result. This axiom is based on the nature of cause and  
> effect. A duty
> to produce a given effect, logically implies a duty to effectuate  
> the cause
> leading to the effect.
>
> Children pass through a foetal stage of development in the womb.  
> The health of
> the child at a later stage is dependent on the health at the foetal  
> stage.
>
> If the foetus is safeguarded by proper prenatal care, a healthy  
> child might be
> born. If the foetus is aborted, a healthy child cannot be born:  
> indeed, the
> preventing of the birth of a healthy child is the sole purpose of  
> an abortion.
> Again, as far as I can tell, no one disputes this.
>
> Prenatal care is logically implied from the duty to care for the  
> child. This is
> a direct deduction from my first two axioms. Prenatal care and  
> abortion are
> mutually exclusive. One cannot kill the foetus and bear a healthy  
> child. Indeed,
> the child after abortion is as unhealthy as it is possible to be:  
> namely, dead.
>
> Therefore the duty to safeguard the health of the child logically  
> excludes the
> option of aborting the child. QED.
>
> I can see how this argument might provoke honest disagreement; I do  
> not see how
> one can honestly conclude the author of it is suffering a mental  
> breakdown.
>
> To dispute the argument, one must either dispute the common notions  
> on which it
> is based, or detect an error in the reasoning. Merely insisting on  
> one term as
> opposed to another in the chain of logic does not affect the  
> outcome. It does
> not matter whether you call the child a ?product of conception? or  
> ?foetus? or
> ?a mass of cells? or a ?banana.? One can substitute x and y values  
> for the terms
> in the equation, but if the values point to the same object in  
> reality, the
> outcome of the equation is the same.
>
> Now it is with some embarrassment I turn to my heated rhetoric.  
> Obviously not
> everyone who supports aborticide gets a sick thrill from it. Some  
> are reptilian
> in their callousness, some are sincere and innocent. So the comment  
> was
> impolite, and, what is much worse, illogical. To bring up the  
> motives of the
> opposition in a debate is argumentum ad Hominem. Ad Hominem is an  
> informal
> logical error. I confess.
>
> In case the point of my little story was not clear, let me  
> emphasize it. I was
> not an antiabortionist at the time a doctor approached me and tried  
> to persuade
> me to extinguish my son (or, if your ears are too delicate to hear  
> things called
> by the right names, let us call him the mass of cells having the  
> potential to be
> my son). What the doctor was asking me to extinguish, in effect,  
> were all those
> golden days in which I now rejoice. Had I heeded his counsel, those  
> days would
> have been lost to me.
>
> All my joy would have been lost.
>
> And I never would have known the degree of the loss. My son?s first  
> footstep,
> his first word, or for that matter his last word, or any  
> grandchildren I might
> otherwise enjoy, would have also been aborted from my life.
>
> Now, just to make this clear, let me repeat that I would have lost  
> all those
> things from my life whether or not my son was a human being or was  
> a person or
> was a foetus at the time the abortion was contemplated. Obviously,  
> had he been
> extinguished at an early stage of development, all the later  
> stages, including
> the rest of his life, would have also been extinguished. The loss  
> to me would
> have been the same, no matter at what stage, early or late, the  
> extinction took
> place.
>
> So even if it is outrageous for me to impute a sick motive to those  
> who promote
> aborticide, I nonetheless submit to your candid judgment that there  
> is a sick
> atmosphere to the argument, in that it degrades the seriousness  
> (the sacredness,
> if you will) with which we cherish human life, born and unborn.
>
> The other point of my little story is that my wife is a heroine:  
> but the
> pro-abortion argument spits at her sacrifice and bravery. Mothers  
> facing birth
> are as soldiers facing battle or sailors facing a storm at sea: it  
> is a labor
> which will call upon her deepest reserves of courage and fortitude,  
> perhaps at
> the cost of her life. To tell mothers that this sacrifice is being  
> made for a
> non-person, and to tell her it is a reasonable alternative to  
> sacrifice her
> child to her own self-interest, robs the labor of any honor. Birth  
> labor is now
> merely pain suffered for the sake of a non-person, which is as much  
> to say, for
> no real reason.
>
> There is also something ghoulish about the whole topic.
>
> You see, I sometimes wonder what they do with the bodies. I am not  
> talking about
> abortion in the first week to ten days: I mean abortions in the  
> seventh or ninth
> month of pregnancy. I mean the fully developed babies whose only  
> crime is that
> they are not yet out of the womb.
>
> Where do they heap up the bodies?
>
> Are they in a pile somewhere, with little blue arms and legs  
> sticking up at odd
> angles, tiny fingers and toes motionless, toothless mouths and eye  
> sockets
> swarming with maggots? Do they inter them in a graveyard? (I assume  
> they do not
> inter them: the ACLU sued to prevent the burial of aborted children  
> in at least
> one jurisdiction.) I assume the bodies are disposed of as medical  
> waste, put in
> little plastic bags, and dumped in a landfill.
>
> Now, logically, if we accept the premise of the abortion argument,  
> that these
> are not the bodies of persons, not the bodies of human beings, then  
> there can be
> no moral objection to disposing of them as we would any other  
> livestock. If
> humanity or personhood is a characteristic acquired after birth,  
> then anyone
> deprived of life before birth has no claim on that status, even if  
> he is
> otherwise fully developed, and his corpse need not be treated with the
> melancholy respect we normally bestow upon the beloved departed.
>
> Theoretically, there should be no moral objection to grinding them  
> up and
> serving them as Soylent Green.
>
> Now then, reasonable people can disagree on this point. The  
> argument on either
> side is not so certain as to compel universal consent.
>
> And to soothe Mr. Beauregard's fret, let me hasten to add that  
> reasonable people
> can even buy and read books by eccentric authors, no matter how  
> distasteful the
> author's opinion is on unrelated topics, provided he can still tell an
> entertaining tale.
>
> My disagreements here are with ideas, not with people. My goal  
> should be to
> disagree without being disagreeable.
>
> JCW
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mike99 at lascruces.com  Fri Jun  3 17:24:10 2005
From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:24:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Another place to opine
Message-ID: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKAEHCEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>

While googling to find material for adding to the wiki on bioluddism, I
discovered a new (at least to me) right-wing site that mentions
transhumanism: http://right-mind.us/archive/2005/03/12/2439.aspx

Here is the text I found there, and the posted comments; you may want to add
your own:
...........................


Transhumanism

There is a lot of discussion online as of late about the concept of
Transhumanism.

No, transhumanism won't be added to the alphabet soup of BGLTSA.

Rather, transhumanism deals with using biotechnology, genetic engineering,
stem cell, cloning, molecular nanotechnology, superintelligence, virtual
reality, augmented reality, etc., to move mankind beyond current limits.
This is kind of a souped-up Darwinism, where we can even splice genetic
materials of other things (plants, animals, etc) into human DNA to create
the cross-breeding we need.

There's a website devoted to all things transhuman:
http://transhumanism.org/

Thoughts? Is this a lawful and positive use of technology?
posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 9:57 AM
Comments

    *
      # It depends, but much of it is perverse in the extreme
      Christopher Witmer
      Posted @ 3/12/2005 10:18 AM
      I won't give a simplistic response along the lines of, "If God had
wanted us to fly He would have given us wings," but obviously there is
tremendous potential for worse than the worst that Aldous Huxley envisioned
in Brave New World.

    * The desire to be something other than human is sinful. The desire to
use various means to become a better human is not, in and of itself, sinful.
      # re: Transhumanism
      Konty
      Posted @ 3/14/2005 8:17 AM

      I agree with Christopher that the pros and cons of this are very
complex.
      The Founders gave us this plural system for dealing wiith uncertainty
like this, so as long as the process is deliberative and transparent I think
we can deal with it. As soon as we stop debating it, and as soon as the
science becomes secretive, we are in trouble.


.......................


Regards,

Michael LaTorra

mike99 at lascruces.com
mlatorra at nmsu.edu

"For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes
towards slavery."
-- Jacob Bronowski

"Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
-- Eugen Leitl

Member:
Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org
Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
http://ieet.org/
Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  3 18:08:52 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:08:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <AA34FF5A-9097-41C4-BBEC-17CB98A709B6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> A fetus is not a child until it is granted that status by the woman  
> carrying it. 

Wow, women have the power of life and death over the most helpless in
their care. I realized that some women see themselves as God, or gods
gift to men, while others thing that god is a woman, but I had no idea
that all women were so empowered... there is thus obviously no legal
basis to prosecute women who kill their babies in post-partum
depression...

> Otherwise women are subject to unbidden duties by any  
> failure in contraceptive viability (if available) or any lapse in  
> attentiveness to such protections.    Where do you get the jump that 
> it is a duty to have children?

What about that social contract you ladies are always yakking about?

> 
> The entire notion of when a set of cells becomes a human child with  
> all the rights and duties attending thereto is hotly debated.  Is a  
> blastocyst a "child"?   Are the sperm and egg before union somehow a 
> "child"?  Does it take a sperm and an egg?  If we take an unfertilzed
> egg and replace its nucleus with the nucleus from an adult cell from 
> say the adult's finger is the result also a "child"?

Is a seven month old fetus a blastocyst? Is a nine month fetus a 'clump
of cells'? Stop yammering hyperbole and stick to the topic.



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun  3 18:59:22 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:59:22 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film	at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <AA34FF5A-9097-41C4-BBEC-17CB98A709B6@mac.com>
References: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>
	<AA34FF5A-9097-41C4-BBEC-17CB98A709B6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42A0A88A.8030205@neopax.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> A fetus is not a child until it is granted that status by the woman  
> carrying it.  Otherwise women are subject to unbidden duties by any  
> failure in contraceptive viability (if available) or any lapse in  
> attentiveness to such protections.    Where do you get the jump that  
> it is a duty to have children?
>
> The entire notion of when a set of cells becomes a human child with  
> all the rights and duties attending thereto is hotly debated.  Is a  
> blastocyst a "child"?   Are the sperm and egg before union somehow a  
> "child"?  Does it take a sperm and an egg?  If we take an unfertilzed  
> egg and replace its nucleus with the nucleus from an adult cell from  
> say the adult's finger is the result also a "child"?
>
In the end it simply comes down to arbitrary definitions.
You choose your axioms and fight your fight.
It's not a question of 'reason' or 'science'.
Different people make different choices and there is no way of proving 
any kind of right or wrong.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.2 - Release Date: 03/06/2005



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 01:22:17 2005
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:22:17 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506031631.j53GVjR32096@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc6050603182252e576be@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/05, John-C-Wright at sff.net <John-C-Wright at sff.net> wrote:
> 
> The argument, as it stands, is unexceptional. The first axiom is that parents
> have a duty to care for their children, which means, to protect and love them,
> and safeguard their health. As far as I can tell, no one disputes this axiom.
> 
> The second axiom is that to will the result implies to will the means necessary
> for that result. This axiom is based on the nature of cause and effect. A duty
> to produce a given effect, logically implies a duty to effectuate the cause
> leading to the effect.
> 
> Children pass through a foetal stage of development in the womb. The health of
> the child at a later stage is dependent on the health at the foetal stage.
> 
> If the foetus is safeguarded by proper prenatal care, a healthy child might be
> born. If the foetus is aborted, a healthy child cannot be born: indeed, the
> preventing of the birth of a healthy child is the sole purpose of an abortion.
> Again, as far as I can tell, no one disputes this.
> 
> Prenatal care is logically implied from the duty to care for the child. This is
> a direct deduction from my first two axioms. Prenatal care and abortion are
> mutually exclusive. One cannot kill the foetus and bear a healthy child. Indeed,
> the child after abortion is as unhealthy as it is possible to be: namely, dead.
> 
> Therefore the duty to safeguard the health of the child logically excludes the
> option of aborting the child. QED.

### It is always a pleasure to dissect a thoughtful argument from such
a seasoned rhetorician, especially if, as in this case, I may have
found a minor glitch.

Let's start by reasoning through analogy, so as to approach the
subject in a less inflammatory situation. Consider the duties a
prospective parent may have before conception. After all, it is known
that in many cases the outcome of a pregnancy may be influenced by the
behavior of parents even before they meet for the first time. Intake
of genotoxic substances may damage the germline enough to cause
mutations, but not yet sufficiently to sterilize. Certain incurable
infections, such as herpes, or hepatitis B, once acquired, may have a
deleterious impact on the fetus many years hence. Other infections,
such as syphilis, may be eradicated to save the child from grotesque
malformations.

There are acts of commision and acts of commision with grave impact on
the future child, should one be born, many years later. Given the duty
of caring for children, which I hold to be self-evident, is it
incumbent on *every* man and woman to act in accordance with this
duty?

No, of course not - those who do not intend to have children do not
need to avoid genotoxic influences, and hepatitis B. The duty of
caring pertains only towards actual children, not might-have-beens,
not towards the children a nun or a priest might have had, had they
chosen a different vocation. I hope you will agree with me on this
point.

Now, back to the situation you have considered: I would claim that
there is no material difference between the above issue,
pre-conception duties, and the issue you discuss, post-conception,
pre-natal duties. While some may disagree, asserting ensoulment at the
time of sperm's penetration through the zona pellucida (or maybe at
formation of the pre-nuclei, or maybe their fusion.... proponents of
this idea tend to be quite sketchy here), I will take the liberty of
simply ignoring them, since I don't believe in the existence of souls,
and differences of a spiritual nature are of no interest to me.

So, the situation does not materially change once two cells fuse to
form a zygote - the child is still a thing of the future. A duty to
care exists for consequential reasons, so as to eliminate unwished-for
experiences in actual humans - we need to care for children only
because without care they would suffer and die prematurely, something
most humans intensely dislike. But without the capacity to suffer and
anticipate death, a zygote cannot be by itself the focus of duties so
defined.

Therefore, in general a parent may be held responsible for failing to
fulfill his/her (pre-, per- or post-conception) duties only if the
child is actually formed. Should the new organism die naturally before
birth, as happens with about 85% of conceptuses, no duties have been
breached by the parent, no woman may be prosecuted for having
hepatitis B. Should the embryo be destroyed by an intentional action,
again, no duties have been breached, since the victimized person never
existed at all.

Can I say, QED?

Rafal


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun  4 01:37:34 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:37:34 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>


On Jun 3, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> A fetus is not a child until it is granted that status by the woman
>> carrying it.
>>
>
> Wow, women have the power of life and death over the most helpless in
> their care. I realized that some women see themselves as God, or gods
> gift to men, while others thing that god is a woman, but I had no idea
> that all women were so empowered... there is thus obviously no legal
> basis to prosecute women who kill their babies in post-partum
> depression...
>

Buzz off troll.




From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 06:54:25 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 07:54:25 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Buzz off troll.

Well, I've cut you slack for reasons you've communicated to me in
private thereby leaving me feeling I need to lay off while out of
decency refraining from either arguing with you or telling anyone why
I'm not arguing with you. But sod this for a lark; there are limits.
My political views on the matter of abortion happen to be closer to
yours than Mike's, but what of it? No, I will not buzz off. No, I will
not sit back and be quiet while you imply that anyone whose views
differ from yours is a troll. If you want to bow out of political
debate for the moment, fine; I will do likewise. But yours is _not_
the norm compared to which anyone else is a deviant.

- Russell


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun  4 07:16:39 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:16:39 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

> On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Buzz off troll.
> 
> Well, I've cut you slack for reasons you've communicated to me in
> private thereby leaving me feeling I need to lay off while out of
> decency refraining from either arguing with you or telling anyone why
> I'm not arguing with you. But sod this for a lark; there are limits.
> My political views on the matter of abortion happen to be closer to
> yours than Mike's, but what of it? No, I will not buzz off. No, I will
> not sit back and be quiet while you imply that anyone whose views
> differ from yours is a troll. 

Russell, I think *you* have drawn an inference that Samantha did not
imply. 

I do not think she was saying "Buzz of troll" to anyone other than
Mike and even then only in relation to one particular post he made.

I like Mike. I respect Mike including respecting his concerns for 
the issues of abortion.  But sometimes Mike *does* behave like a
troll in that he seems to be deliberately inflamatory in order to get a 
response and perhaps to ensure that he can join the conversation. 

Personally, I don't think Samantha was out of line in saying what she
said on this occassion. But that's just my opinion and I am not a list
moderator.  Mike needs a firm hand on occassion and he would not
I suspect respect anything less :-)

BTW: I have been meaning to reply to John C Wright at some stage
but it just hasn't gotten to be a priority yet. 

Brett  Paatsch



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 07:29:42 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:29:42 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
	<010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Russell, I think *you* have drawn an inference that Samantha did not
> imply.

No, I think I have drawn one that she did imply.

> I do not think she was saying "Buzz of troll" to anyone other than
> Mike and even then only in relation to one particular post he made.

I think exactly the same thing. That's why I reacted.

> I like Mike. I respect Mike including respecting his concerns for
> the issues of abortion.  But sometimes Mike *does* behave like a
> troll in that he seems to be deliberately inflamatory in order to get a
> response and perhaps to ensure that he can join the conversation.

Inflammatory? No, hit the brakes on that. People go around saying
"it's just a clump of cells, terminate it, there is no moral value
there." Do you call that inflammatory?

No? Didn't think so. (As it happens, I don't either.)

Someone comes along and states the reverse view and gets called
inflammatory, and a troll? Bugger that for a lark. If you want to
debate, debate. (Or don't; enough electrons have been spilled on this
already.) But as far as I'm concerned, you don't get to assume your
view is normative and anyone who disagrees is a troll.

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak out because I
wasn't a Communist."

> Personally, I don't think Samantha was out of line in saying what she
> said on this occassion. But that's just my opinion and I am not a list
> moderator.  Mike needs a firm hand on occassion and he would not
> I suspect respect anything less :-)

I'm not a list moderator either. I'm merely saying what I believe to be right.

- Russell


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun  4 08:40:14 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:40:14 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

John C Wright wrote:

> Mr. Broderick writes: "It's petty of me, I suppose, but I think
> if you're going to (sic) someone for a typo you might try getting
> your own subject line and in-text spelling of "euphemism" right.
> 
> It is not petty at all, my good sir: a man who makes as many
> mistakes as I do welcomes any and all corrections. (I was 
> (sic)ing Mr. Paatsch because I thought he meant I was being
> was provocative, not pejorative.)

The use of pejorative terms in an ethical discussion is also
provocative, it is not however provocative in a good way,
its provocative like poking your finger in the other persons
eye is provocative. Its not thought provoking or 'light shedding'
but it is heat provoking to use the word child in such a way that 
an early stage embryo falls into the same class as a one year
old infant. 

An honest joint exploration of the moral weighting of human
entities at different stages of development can be carried out
without pejorative terms being used. I am a human entity, so 
is a human sperm cell, so is a human cancer cell.  

If anyone was genuinely mislead by my miss spelling I apologise
but I give forewarning I will make typing and misspelling errors again
as I do not regard these things as particularly important in comparison
with the conveying of the underlying ideas themselves. 

Good writing tends to be good writing, in my opinion, when it is
effective writing. Time spent checking for typos is not always time
well spent. 

Brett Paatsch



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 09:12:35 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:12:35 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
In-Reply-To: <017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> The use of pejorative terms in an ethical discussion is also
> provocative, it is not however provocative in a good way,
> its provocative like poking your finger in the other persons
> eye is provocative. Its not thought provoking or 'light shedding'
> but it is heat provoking to use the word child in such a way that
> an early stage embryo falls into the same class as a one year
> old infant.

And your use of phrases like 'clump of cells' to refer to an early
stage embryo isn't provocative? Give me a break. Argue your position
if you must (not that anything will or can be said on the topic of
abortion that hasn't been said a million times already, so rehashing
it on this list is a waste of bandwidth), but don't insult everyone's
intelligence by pretending you're somehow being more rational than
your opponents.

- Russell


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun  4 09:50:13 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 02:50:13 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C668894-CCD9-49A0-8AE8-29E4C45415FF@mac.com>

I was writing in response to deliberately provocative prose from Mike  
Lorrey.  Exactly how does my not mincing words in response concern  
you?  I do not know why you are reading such bizarre interpretations  
into a very straight forward response.  I never claimed any such  
thing.  I find it much more odd that you would claim it of me than  
that I would respond to trolling as I did.

- s

On Jun 3, 2005, at 11:54 PM, Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Buzz off troll.
>>
>
> Well, I've cut you slack for reasons you've communicated to me in
> private thereby leaving me feeling I need to lay off while out of
> decency refraining from either arguing with you or telling anyone why
> I'm not arguing with you. But sod this for a lark; there are limits.
> My political views on the matter of abortion happen to be closer to
> yours than Mike's, but what of it? No, I will not buzz off. No, I will
> not sit back and be quiet while you imply that anyone whose views
> differ from yours is a troll. If you want to bow out of political
> debate for the moment, fine; I will do likewise. But yours is _not_
> the norm compared to which anyone else is a deviant.
>
> - Russell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun  4 09:53:55 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:53:55 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and reality. 
References: <200505312301.j4VN1DR30391@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <019a01c568eb$520af420$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

John C Wright wrote:

> Brett Paatsch writes: "I'd certainly object to the use of the
> word "child" if it was intended as a non perjorative term to
> describe the whole class of living human entities from 
> fertilization to just before birth nine months later. Such
> a single classification could not be more biased or more
> misleading."
> 
> He also calls the use of the term child "perjorative" (sic)
> which means: "having negative connotations; especially
> tending to disparage or belittle."

To call an embryo a child is to beg the important ethical
question of what status that human entity ought have by
presuming to answer it in the formation of the question. 

That is why I see it as biased or misleading to use the
term child. 

> In this case, in other words, he is claiming that my 
> calling an unborn human entity a child is an insult, a
> disparagement, to the child. This is a mildly puzzling use
> of the term. As if to be a "child" were a lower dignity
> than to be an "entity"? 

The point is that entity isn't value ladden by prior usage.
I am not trying to strip the dignity away from anything.

I found your recourse to a dictionary to justify your use
of the word to be disingenuous and potentially deceitful
given that Samantha and Damien had already objected 
to the term. You seemed to be trying to use your skill
with words to steal a position and stack a debate rather
than to make your case on its merit.

A general dictionary definition of the word child is the
wrong tool to establish the meaning of the word child
as you intended to stretch it and you ought to have
damn well known it. If you thought you were the 
average mug American that needed to consult a
dictionary to determine the meaning of the word child
you would not be sending a post to this list headed
"Famous author self destructs in public".
 
> As I said, I have not the patience to debate the point. 

Let me be very clear on this point. I don't regard you
as someone who I or anyone else here has an obligation
to humor or to be deferential to. I had never heard
of  John C Wright until Damien posted to this list to
say that he had found God. 

So far I am not greatly impressed with what I have
seen of John C Wright who claims to have been visited
by "the Holy Paraclete (sic)" and thinks that morality can
be objectively grounded in a world view that includes a 
the christian God, (when I asked you to give your 
explanation of the problem of evil you declined saying
that that had been addressed by others more capable 
than you - you dodged the hard personal question), so
in short I don't care about trying your patience. On the
contrary you will have to be on your very best behavior
for me to feel that I am not wasting my time talking to
you, or worse, that I might be giving a close minded 
rhetorican and professional pest the tools to spread the
next generation of bullshit to the faithful.

>With all due resect, his argument is that a certain term,
> used commonly enough by enough people that at
> least one standard, commonly used dictionary (Merriam
> Webster) lists it, not as an obscure or archaic meaning, 
> but as the primary meaning. 

Bollocks. Thats not my argument, you are trying to put
words into my mouth. 

If you believe in God you might do well to be careful
of the prohibitions and consequence of bearing false
witness.  
 
> Please note that no one in this discussion misunderstood
> to which unborn human entity my word referred.

You are guessing that no one misunderstood it. Whether
readers did or not you cannot know. What is clear is
that you persisted with a term that others found
objectionable. You chose propaganda instead of 
communication. 

>There was no misunderstanding: I violated a political
> taboo common to a certain stance that I do not share.

> The pretense is that all "intelligent" right-thinking men 
> speak the same way using the same euphamisms on
> the approved topics.

I thought your pretense, even deceit, was to presume to
set the record straight whilst embedding the crookedness
within it at a subtler level. 

> My apologies if I offend, 

You apologise and pretend to be courteous and deferential
frequently. Frankly, I for one, do not trust that you are
sincere. I will give you another chance. I am doing that by
writing to you rather than ignoring you. 

> but I am not a conformist to these particular doctrines, 
> speech codes, habits, or taboos, and it would be wrong for
> me to talk as if I were.

Just so you know. I will decide when I think you are sincere
and I will decide when I think you are wrong.  And if you 
believe in God and the Devil you may imagine that they will
form their own views as well. 

Brett Paatsch



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun  4 09:57:11 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 02:57:11 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
	<010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:29 AM, Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Russell, I think *you* have drawn an inference that Samantha did not
>> imply.
>>
>
> No, I think I have drawn one that she did imply.

I am right here.  You were off base on this one.

>
>
>> I do not think she was saying "Buzz of troll" to anyone other than
>> Mike and even then only in relation to one particular post he made.
>>
>
> I think exactly the same thing. That's why I reacted.
>

You didi not find his remarks inflammatory and unnecessarily so to  
simply express a difference of opinion on abortion?

>
>> I like Mike. I respect Mike including respecting his concerns for
>> the issues of abortion.  But sometimes Mike *does* behave like a
>> troll in that he seems to be deliberately inflamatory in order to  
>> get a
>> response and perhaps to ensure that he can join the conversation.
>>
>
> Inflammatory? No, hit the brakes on that. People go around saying
> "it's just a clump of cells, terminate it, there is no moral value
> there." Do you call that inflammatory?
>

I call that an opinion.  I don't consider baiting women in general as  
Mike did to be an opinion on the topic at hand.

> No? Didn't think so. (As it happens, I don't either.)
>
> Someone comes along and states the reverse view and gets called
> inflammatory, and a troll? Bugger that for a lark.

That wasn't what happened.  Read it again from a slightly different  
perspective and see if you get what I did.

- samantha



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun  4 10:08:25 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:08:25 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com><017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> The use of pejorative terms in an ethical discussion is also
>> provocative, it is not however provocative in a good way,
>> its provocative like poking your finger in the other persons
>> eye is provocative. Its not thought provoking or 'light shedding'
>> but it is heat provoking to use the word child in such a way that
>> an early stage embryo falls into the same class as a one year
>> old infant.
> 
> And your use of phrases like 'clump of cells' to refer to an early
> stage embryo isn't provocative? 

Fools can find anything provocative. I am not saying you are a fool
I'm still working that out. 

There are certain contexts in which to describe some early stage 
embryos as a clump of cells is just plain accurate.

But you don't have to take my word for it you can look for yourself.
I don't refer you to a dictionary I refer you to a web site that shows
what different stages of human embryos look like. 

The Carnegie Collection is a tool used by developmental biologists.

http://virtualhumanembryo.lsuhsc.edu/HEIRLOOM/Stages/HEP_StagesFS.htm

> Give me a break.

I'd rather give you an education but I don't have much time so I'll
just give you the link and ask you if you think that it is misleading to
call early stage embryos "clumps of cells". 

> Argue your position
> if you must (not that anything will or can be said on the topic of
> abortion that hasn't been said a million times already, so rehashing
> it on this list is a waste of bandwidth),

You know that for a fact do you?

> ... but don't insult everyone's
> intelligence by pretending you're somehow being more rational than
> your opponents.

What sort of intelligence *gets* insulted? That's a rhetorical question.

Seriously what is missing in this discussion about early stage embryos
is something that does not need to be in the age of the internet. Its 
possible for you or I or anyone to take a look at what human entities
at different stages look like for ourselves. 

Brett Paatsch



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 10:09:15 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:09:15 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
	<010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>
	<0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> You didi not find his remarks inflammatory and unnecessarily so to
> simply express a difference of opinion on abortion?

And again comes the yapping of the jackals - of course your remarks
and those of others during the debate have been equally inflammatory,
but equally of course you wouldn't have dreamed of responding as you
did if the numerical odds in the debate were against you rather than
in your favor. Perceivest thou the beam in thine own eye (everyone
thus involved, not just Samantha). Now I'm done with this.

- Russell


From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Jun  4 12:48:02 2005
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:48:02 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey
Message-ID: <003f01c56903$a61c0640$e2893cd1@pavilion>

From: "J. Fox" fox at nevadalink.com
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey


I am conducting a survey on Sub-Orbital Space Tourism for a graduate
project.  I invite all on the list to to participate by downloading the
survey, filling the survey out, and mailing the completed survey to me.

Please Note:  Deadline for the completed survey is June 30, 2005 for the
USA, and July 15 for surveys sent from outside the USA.

Thank you for your time and contributions.

The link to the survey (PDF format 36k):

http://web1.greatbasin.net/~dayton-nevada/Questionaire.pdf



From charlie at stross.org.uk  Sat Jun  4 19:33:14 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:33:14 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
	<010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>
	<0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com>
	<8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8412bb14d33cebcad872a2076969e026@stross.org.uk>


[ Just back from long meandering detour ... note different email 
address ]

On 4 Jun 2005, at 11:09, Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> You didi not find his remarks inflammatory and unnecessarily so to
>> simply express a difference of opinion on abortion?
>
> And again comes the yapping of the jackals - of course your remarks
> and those of others during the debate have been equally inflammatory,
> but equally of course you wouldn't have dreamed of responding as you
> did if the numerical odds in the debate were against you rather than
> in your favor. Perceivest thou the beam in thine own eye (everyone
> thus involved, not just Samantha). Now I'm done with this.

It seems to me that the reason abortion is such a hot-button topic -- 
at least in the USA -- is that it is almost invariably introduced as a 
stalking-horse for other social agendas that are never explicitly 
dragged kicking and screaming under the spotlight.

It then becomes impossible to express an opinion on the subject of 
abortion per se without a whole slew of additional philosophical and 
social attitudes being attributed to one.

Furthermore, the presence of these off-stage agendas results in any 
attempt to discuss the matter on the net rapidly descending into a 
dogmatic quagmire because those people who *do* take a position on the 
basis of some other agenda promptly assume that any expression of an 
opinion on the matter of abortion is a place holder for an opinion on 
the rest of their weltanschauung. The debate promptly flies off into 
the stratosphere of ideology, completely losing track of the facts on 
the ground.

And for me, the key fact in the whole matter is our attitude to 
biological determinism. The human species as currently constituted has 
a reward-positive behaviour (sex) that can result in pregnancy. The 
whole thrust of human history demonstrates that we *can't* stop people 
having illicit sex, short of physical mutilation. Sex on its own 
wouldn't be the problem if it wasn't for the complicating factor that 
conception is an involuntary semi-random process associated with sex.

Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal world 
involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn't occur, and that as 
extropians are dedicated to the improvement of the human condition, 
figuring out how to make conception a process under voluntary control 
-- preferably wired into our neurohormonal axis by way of gene-line 
engineering -- would do more to alleviate human suffering than any 
amount of on-going gaseous blathering over whether humanity cuts in 
when the foetus reaches 10^5 cells or 10^8?


-- Charlie (irritated) Stross

PS: This really *isn't* the most pleasant thing to see first thing 
after diving back into the list after a few months away.



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  4 20:31:08 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: <05C5081466660B4A94F371F5D48B59E777D55D@MBOX02.stf.nus.edu.sg>
Message-ID: <20050604203108.70821.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Jan Gruber <bchjg at nus.edu.sg> wrote:
> I thought this bit of BBC tech news might be of interest - not sure
> how the electronic components are supposed to be replicated though. I
> seem to remember that this was discussed here some time ago - anybody
> know what is the state of the art with this ?

The electronic components - specifically, the microprocessors - are
indeed the stumbling points.  Simple mechanics can self-replicate, if
guided appropriately, but so far no one has been able to make the
information carrying bits - again, the microprocessors -
self-replicate.  Perhaps this could be done if the machine was made
with large-scale, relatively slow processors that could be built with,
say, welding rods laying down circuit traces instead of lithography of
any sort, but so far no one has done such.  (Besides, there are
arguments about what constitutes the "raw materials" that any
self-replicator would have to consume.  One obviously can't build a
metal arm without metal to work with, and perhaps one could argue for
having a non-replicating smelting plant to refine metal from ore so the
self-rep-ers wouldn't have to replicate said plant just to reproduce
themselves, with more plants perhaps being constructed after many
generations of self-rep-ers to increase the overall population growth
rate.  Some are extending this to claim that microprocessors also count
as "raw materials" for the usual things this kind of machine would be
useful for, ignoring the fact that an advanced microprocessor fab is
much much harder to build than a simple smelting plant.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Jun  4 21:43:34 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:43:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The future of pizza delivery?
In-Reply-To: <000901c567ce$e4b617f0$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <20050604214334.85469.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
> Have any of you seen this?
> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pizzacall

Problem: economics.  Businesses are ultimately all about satisfying
the customer to make a profit; intrusively anti-consumer behavior
tends to take out the business (as the RIAA and MPAA are finding out
the hard way).  Casual knowledge of a customer's travel and retail
purchases, for example, would not appreciably help a pizza delivery
service but would turn customers off so much that it'd be uneconomic
to have their agents have access to that info.  Health insurance
agencies that pressure food providers into compliance would find their
insured base going to food providers to small to be worth pressuring -
or just switching agencies if possible - and the food providers that
might cave in would find themselves losing business to their
unpressured competition.  (Not that this drive towards small business
instead of large national chains would necessarily be a bad thing in
all cases.)  And so forth.

They might well have a database of the customer's addresses and phone
numbers.  But most such places one already do that to streamline future
repeat business - storing information that the customer provided
directly.


From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun  4 21:56:22 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:56:22 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
In-Reply-To: <01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Russell Wallace wrote:
> 
> > Argue your position
> > if you must (not that anything will or can be said on the topic of
> > abortion that hasn't been said a million times already, so rehashing
> > it on this list is a waste of bandwidth),
> 
> You know that for a fact do you?

Yep.

Let me take a show of hands: is there anyone here who seriously thinks
there's the slightest possibility that debating abortion on this list
could be anything other than a waste of bandwidth?

- Russell


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Jun  4 22:23:17 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:23:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Gunning for trouble
Message-ID: <42A229D5.1070106@mindspring.com>

[The police chief should go to jail, too.  -Terry]


http://wetrack.it/xposed/a/47/e/243

Grandpa Has 500 Guns

Xposed, May 2005
By AP Staff

RIDGEFIELD, N.J.
A day after police escorted a disoriented elderly woman to her home, they
returned with a search warrant and found a massive cache of weapons and
gunpowder.

Nearly 500 guns, including AK-47s and high-powered rifles, 500 pounds of
gunpowder and 100,000 rounds of ammunition were taken Wednesday from the
home of Elizabeth and Sherwin Raymond, both 82.

Sherwin Raymond, a former physician and known gun enthusiast, has twice
spent time in prison: in the early 1970s for performing illegal abortions
and later that decade for selling silencer-equipped submachine guns.
Convicted felons are not permitted to own guns.

"People knew he was a (gun) collector, but no one suspected the magnitude of
what was found," police Chief John Bogovich told The Record of Bergen County
for Thursday's newspapers. "This will be a monumental task to inventory."

Police said they sought the warrant after bringing Elizabeth Raymond back to
her home on Memorial Day and seeing the windows and doors open.

Police suspect many of weapons might have been bought at gun shows. Federal
authorities are expected to investigate where they were purchased and
whether they had ever been used in crimes.

Sherwin Raymond was charged with creating a hazardous condition and his bail
was set at $25,000. Police guarded him Wednesday at a Hackensack hospital
while he received dialysis treatment. His wife, who was not charged, was
taken to a nearby hospital so she did not have to be alone.



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun  4 22:41:24 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:41:24 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <8412bb14d33cebcad872a2076969e026@stross.org.uk>
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com>
	<8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com>
	<010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com>
	<0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com>
	<8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com>
	<8412bb14d33cebcad872a2076969e026@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <6A54B683-95F0-4FF1-9323-AFA090EB998D@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Charlie Stross wrote:
> It seems to me that the reason abortion is such a hot-button topic  
> -- at least in the USA -- is that it is almost invariably  
> introduced as a stalking-horse for other social agendas that are  
> never explicitly dragged kicking and screaming under the spotlight.
> It then becomes impossible to express an opinion on the subject of  
> abortion per se without a whole slew of additional philosophical  
> and social attitudes being attributed to one.
>

Yep.  I keep experiencing people attributing all sorts of things to  
me given my stand on the subject of abortion.  I am amazed and often  
blind-sided by this so you are doubtless right.

>
> Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal  
> world involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn't occur, and  
> that as extropians are dedicated to the improvement of the human  
> condition, figuring out how to make conception a process under  
> voluntary control -- preferably wired into our neurohormonal axis  
> by way of gene-line engineering -- would do more to alleviate human  
> suffering than any amount of on-going gaseous blathering over  
> whether humanity cuts in when the foetus reaches 10^5 cells or 10^8?


Sounds good to me.  Of course the rub is in the question of what is  
allowable to simulate or correct toward the ideal goal state in the  
meantime.    I think you can work backward from the goal of total  
control over when a pregnancy occurs to it being permissible to end  
an unwanted pregnancy that escaped one's currently imperfect  
control.  Others of course disagree.

- samantha



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Jun  4 23:11:48 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:11:48 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com><8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com><010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc><8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com><0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com><8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com><8412bb14d33cebcad872a2076969e026@stross.org.uk>
	<6A54B683-95F0-4FF1-9323-AFA090EB998D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c5695a$c9735880$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>

> Yep.  I keep experiencing people attributing all sorts of things to  me 
> given my stand on the subject of abortion.  I am amazed and often 
> blind-sided by this so you are doubtless right.

I have had the same experience, yup.

> Sounds good to me.  Of course the rub is in the question of what is 
> allowable to simulate or correct toward the ideal goal state in the 
> meantime.    I think you can work backward from the goal of total  control 
> over when a pregnancy occurs to it being permissible to end  an unwanted 
> pregnancy that escaped one's currently imperfect  control.  Others of 
> course disagree.

My grandmother - who got married in 1915 in Russia, at the dawn of that 
revolution ... and who had given birth to two children by the time she 
settled in White-Russian-China in the early 1920s, got pregnant accidentally 
when she was in her early 40s and things were getting ugly in China - that 
was in 1939.  She did not philosophize about it much - she did what she 
thought she needed to do to keep herself and her family safe and "packable" 
(as the White Russians often needed to suddenly move from one 
hot-and-dangerous area - to another less dangerous area ... until they 
eventually got to the promised land of the USA, which sometimes took years, 
if not decades).  I am not 100% certain what my grandmother did - but she 
either took something or did something to herself to cause an abortion (or 
both?) - and I always thought it was very brave or her.  She never talked 
about it (I overheard things here and there), and she definitely never 
played "victim."  Even in light of some danger to her own life, it was just 
a practical thing she felt she needed to do - to get some back some control 
she needed in the out-of-control world of the immigrant-in-a-strange-land.

I am constantly amazed - looking back - at how strong some of the women with 
whom I grew up were.  And they cooked like you wouldn't believe, to boot.

And I think my grandmother would have tried to eat Mike Lorrey alive, if she 
got the chance.

Olga
 




From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun  4 23:17:23 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:17:23 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com><017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc><8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com><01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/4/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> Russell Wallace wrote:
>> 
>> > Argue your position
>> > if you must (not that anything will or can be said on the topic of
>> > abortion that hasn't been said a million times already, so rehashing
>> > it on this list is a waste of bandwidth),
>> 
>> You know that for a fact do you?
> 
> Yep.
> 
> Let me take a show of hands: is there anyone here who seriously thinks
> there's the slightest possibility that debating abortion on this list
> could be anything other than a waste of bandwidth?

Russell, did you look at the link to the Virtual Human Embryo site? 

Brett Paatsch



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 00:06:57 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:06:57 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
References: <20050603180852.2804.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49F57B65-E80A-438D-9FC2-FABB35881BF9@mac.com><8d71341e0506032354334d6f15@mail.gmail.com><010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc><8d71341e05060400292bc24bee@mail.gmail.com><0E1E225A-F062-484F-9ECF-BBC30FA2BD98@mac.com><8d71341e05060403094a776333@mail.gmail.com>
	<8412bb14d33cebcad872a2076969e026@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <029201c56962$7d6500d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Charlie Stross wrote:

> Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal
> world involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn't occur,
> and that as extropians are dedicated to the improvement of the
> human condition, figuring out how to make conception a process
> under voluntary control -- preferably wired into our neurohormonal
> axis by way of gene-line engineering -- would do more to alleviate
> human suffering than any amount of on-going gaseous blathering 
> over whether humanity cuts in when the foetus reaches 10^5 cells
> or 10^8?

I can't agree with that. 

First, not everyone that posts to the ExI chat list is an extropian.
Arguably no one is. 

Two, "figuring out how to make conception a process under
voluntary control" was achieved ages ago. Don't have sex - unless
your willing get pregnant - thats seems to be the catholic position
on it, and with a few exceptions I'd have to grant them that that
would work if everyone did it.

To get gene-line engineering working as a solution as you suggest
it doesn't just have to be technologically practical it has to be 
politically practical. Guess what the catholics and others who prefer
their solution to the one you propose would vote against your solution
in large numbers even if you could get a political party to put it on the
agenda. 

Three, when humanity cuts in, as you put it, is not a trivial question.
Its an important one. And discussions about it that develop the
thinking of people involved in them are discussions worth having. 

When Galileo looked through a telescope and saw Jupiter and its
moons he was seeing what was there. If the Pope had been willing
to look through the telescope the Pope too would have seen what
was there. Perhaps the Pope would have questioned whether he
could trust this new fangled piece of technology or not but at least
his taking a look would have progressed his thinking a long a bit.
Perhaps he could have had another telescope built. Perhaps his
eminence could have gotten the telescope deconstructed and
reassembled. 

The situation with respect to discovering the truth about the 
development of humans is comparable. It is possible for people 
to look through a microscope and see for themselves how much
structure and organisation is involved in human entities at various
stages from sperm and egg to early stage embryos which appear
prior to the formation of tissues as clumps of cells. When tissues
start to form they are tissues as well as cells. This stuff can be seen
with ones own eyes. Religious people can see it if they are willing
to look at it. In the age of the internet we are able to make it more
accessible to people to see this stuff in silico for themselves. But 
we cannot make them look. Perhaps like that Pope all they want
to do is presume that they know the answer.  

It is unfortunate that it is not easier to change the minds of people
who votes matter but it never has been easy and it never has been
particularly pleasant.

I am willing to tolerate your not finding you first look at the extropy
list after a few months to be less than pleasant if it means that people
like John C Wright and Russell Wallace will look through the damn
microscope and see what it is that is the actual substance of the 
matter.   

http://virtualhumanembryo.lsuhsc.edu/HEIRLOOM/Stages/HEP_StagesFS.htm

The purpose here is too enlighten with a view to persuasion with a
view to improving the human condition. It is not likely to be possible
to do that without the people involved understanding what the human
condition at the various stages of human development is. 

Brett Paatsch
  












From dgc at cox.net  Sun Jun  5 00:21:43 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:21:43 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: <20050604203108.70821.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050604203108.70821.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42A24597.5090100@cox.net>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- Jan Gruber <bchjg at nus.edu.sg> wrote:
>  
>
>>I thought this bit of BBC tech news might be of interest - not sure
>>how the electronic components are supposed to be replicated though. I
>>seem to remember that this was discussed here some time ago - anybody
>>know what is the state of the art with this ?
>>    
>>
>
>The electronic components - specifically, the microprocessors - are
>indeed the stumbling points.  Simple mechanics can self-replicate, if
>guided appropriately, but so far no one has been able to make the
>information carrying bits - again, the microprocessors -
>self-replicate. 
>
Adrian pointed out that the real issue is the definition of "raw material."

It is now theoretically possible to build a complex electronic circuit using
using an ink jet printer. I do not know if you can build the circuitry 
needed by an
ink jet printer using an ink jet printer, but my gut feeling is that you 
can.

Today even the most trivial process control microprocessor is massively more
capable than it needs to be for most simple processes. We need to perform
a gedankenexperiment: What is the minimal circuit that can control an 
ink jet printer,
and what is the biggest circuit that an ink jet printer can print? If 
these numbers are
reasonably close, it should be possible for an ink jet printer to 
replicate its circuitry, and
to replicate the circuitry for the rest of a self-replicating system 
that includes an
ink jet printer.

For this exersize, we must consider the paper (or other substrate) and 
the rather exotic inks
as raw materials. At the system level, a small production plant for the 
paper and a small production
plant for each of the inks is likely to be a whole lot easier to build 
than even the smallest conceivable
infrastructure based on silicon wafers.

The only problem here is the ink jet print head. The use of an ink jet 
to print a dense circuit depends
critically on the precision of the print head, and today's print heads 
are lithographic. An ink jet printer
has a resolution of 600dpi (about 100micrometer) or better. If we relax 
the resolution, we lose circuit
density. My gut feeling is that a printer using non-lithographic, purely 
mechanical techniques, can
achieve a precision of at best 100 micrometer. This is an areal density 
of one percent of the density
achieved by an ink jet printer.

But let;'s go for it.
Assume a mechanical plotter with 100micrometer resolution.
Assume a substrate (page)  with a 32cm.32cm printable size
Assume a 1-bit-per pixel ROM technology: we can store and replicate 
10Mb/page.
If a transistor plus routing overhead cost 10 pixels, we have 1 million 
transistors per page.

Note that this technology is incredibly SLOW by comparison with modern 
semiconductors.
who cares? It is fast enough to control a self-replicator. Recall that 
computers in 1980
had 1Mhz clocks. A system with a 100micrometer resolution should be able 
to operate
with a 1Mhz clock.

Let's arbitrarily assume that the self-replicator can be described in 
100MB=800Mb. This is
80 pages of plotting. Further assume that the electronics can be 
instantiated in an additional
80 pages of electronic circuitry. This is roughly equivalent to two 
reams of office-quality paper,
or about 1Kg to store the information and electronics.

I think I need to write a paper on this subject instead of an e-mail. 
Can someone point me to
references?




From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Jun  5 01:04:32 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:04:32 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
Message-ID: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

Dubbed "Herakles," the system would use an ion beam produced from xenon gas 
to propel the craft to speeds of 200,000 mph, 10 times faster than the top 
speed of the space shuttle. :

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002299705_ion04.html




From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 01:46:54 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 02:46:54 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
In-Reply-To: <025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Russell, did you look at the link to the Virtual Human Embryo site?

No, you're missing the point - my opinion on that topic happens to be
the same as yours. I do not have to personally subscribe to the
minority view to object to a state of affairs where holders of the
majority view do not see themselves obliged to observe civilized
standards of discourse.

- Russell


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 02:23:42 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:23:42 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02d501c56975$978bd160$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/5/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> > Russell, did you look at the link to the Virtual Human Embryo site?
> 
> No, you're missing the point - my opinion on that topic happens to be
> the same as yours. I do not have to personally subscribe to the
> minority view to object to a state of affairs where holders of the
> majority view do not see themselves obliged to observe civilized
> standards of discourse.

I did not missing your point. I understand that you want to defend
the right of what you regard as the minority view to a fair hearing
in this forum. That is laudible in so far as it goes but it does not
go far enough. 

This forum is not the ultimate forum. The ultimate forum is the world.
The minority view expressed by christians like John C Wright is not
the minority view in that larger forum. When John C Wright comes
into this forum he comes in of his own free will and he leaves of his
own free will perhaps even probably with a better understanding of 
how others with different views to his own think. If he is here in 
operating in good faith as a truth seeker he may be persuaded by
arguments and the good faith of others but if he is here to test only
his skills in rhetoric and to acquire a better understanding of the 
enemy so as to counter them in the larger forum then your laudible
defense of his rights here may have consequences counter to the
principle that you are standing for in that larger forum of the world
in which policy is discussed and formulated in parliaments where
those with faith based world views vastly outnumber those without.

I know from person experience that those with faith based world
views in the parliaments and congress do not constrain themselves
either to the standards of civilized discourse or indeed to the laws
of the land if they can escape them in the pursuit of what they 
regard as the higher purpose as they see it.

You say that your view is the same as mine. You do not know 
my view well enough to say that unless you are willing to look
at the evidence that I show you and to see the basis upon which
my view is formed. You objected that nothing further could be
gained by a discussion of abortion and that to discuss it here 
was a waste of electrons and of bandwidth. We have plenty
of electrons and plenty of bandwidth. What we are short on 
are tools to pursuade those who are open to being persuaded.

I ask you again, this is not a loaded or leading question, did
you look at the Virtual Human Embryo site? If so do you think
that it is misleading to say that at some stages the early human 
entity is a cluster of cells AND that therefore it is misleading
to use the word child as a catchall term to include everything
from a fertilized egg to a human infant of a couple of years of
age a child? 

John C Wright whether he knows it or not, or whether you
know it or not is actively working to remove some distinctions
between classes of entities that are necessary to begin to have
an intelligent and honest debate about morality. A distinction
between person and non person is necessary to be made not
so that non persons be stripped of dignity but so that the hard
won gains of rights for persons are not frittered away. The 
distinction between child and non child also serves as a basis
to allow the rights of the child to be upheld. It is not there to
deny rights to the class of non child. Adult humans are non
childs too. But a person that conflates the class child with
non child simply to reposition the ethical discourse onto a
basis more supportive to their rhetoric is either doing so 
out of ignorance or doing so out of bad faith.

You cannot know which of those bases John C Wright is
operating from simply because he packages his discourse
couteously. 

Brett Paatsch



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 02:48:38 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 03:48:38 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
In-Reply-To: <02d501c56975$978bd160$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>
	<02d501c56975$978bd160$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060419482308ce23@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> I ask you again, this is not a loaded or leading question, did
> you look at the Virtual Human Embryo site?

No. I have already seen pictures and descriptions of early-stage
embryos; they formed inputs to my judgement that said entities should
not be regarded as persons. But I don't make the mistake of confusing
my judgement on a moral issue with the scientific facts that formed
inputs to it.

> If so do you think
> that it is misleading to say that at some stages the early human
> entity is a cluster of cells AND that therefore it is misleading
> to use the word child as a catchall term to include everything
> from a fertilized egg to a human infant of a couple of years of
> age a child?

No. It represents a view that differs from mine, but that is not the
same as being misleading.

> I know from person experience that those with faith based world
> views in the parliaments and congress do not constrain themselves
> either to the standards of civilized discourse or indeed to the laws
> of the land if they can escape them in the pursuit of what they
> regard as the higher purpose as they see it.

Some do, some don't. Are you of the opinion that those without faith
based world views typically adhere to a higher standard of conduct? If
so, I am afraid <understatement of the month> your opinion fails to
correspond to the state of affairs that exists in the real world
</understatement of the month> - as this discussion has nicely
demonstrated.

- Russell


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 03:28:16 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:28:16 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>
	<02d501c56975$978bd160$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060419482308ce23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ec01c5697e$9cb46130$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/5/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> > I ask you again, this is not a loaded or leading question, did
> > you look at the Virtual Human Embryo site?
> 
> No. I have already seen pictures and descriptions of early-stage
> embryos; they formed inputs to my judgement that said entities
> should not be regarded as persons. 

Have you shown those pictures to anyone else to give so that they
could form inputs to their judgement? 

>But I don't make the mistake of confusing my judgement on a 
>moral issue with the scientific facts that formed inputs to it.

Perhaps you are implying that I do. On this matter you would
be wrong. I use scientific facts and experience to inform me
of the way the world is. Is doesn't automatically or easily get
to ought. But ignorance of what is will almost certainly get to
the formulation of very bad policy. Christians (as a category
there are of course exceptions) start with the proposition that
God is and build their worldview including their view of absolute
morality up from that. This is akin to trying to achieve a system 
of objective morality by stealing it all in one greedy, intellectually
lazy, go. 

> > If so do you think
> > that it is misleading to say that at some stages the early human
> > entity is a cluster of cells AND that therefore it is misleading
> > to use the word child as a catchall term to include everything
> > from a fertilized egg to a human infant of a couple of years of
> > age a child?
> 
> No. It represents a view that differs from mine, but that is not the
> same as being misleading.

Okay, so it hasn't mislead you because you were already better
informed. But that is not the question, the question is, is calling an
early stage embryo a child likely, in your view, to mislead those
who have not seen an early stage embryo?

And do you know for a fact that John C Wright has taken a look
at the site or something similar and therefore knows what it is that
he is talking about?

> > I know from person experience that those with faith based world
> > views in the parliaments and congress do not constrain themselves
> > either to the standards of civilized discourse or indeed to the laws
> > of the land if they can escape them in the pursuit of what they
> > regard as the higher purpose as they see it.

> Some do, some don't. Are you of the opinion that those without faith
> based world views typically adhere to a higher standard of conduct? 

Yes, as a generalisation, I do think that, but there are so very few of 
them that it is hard to tell. Those that look to faith to find guidance to 
their moral decisions are abandoning their own judgement to some 
other authority then there own conscience. They have less need to 
look to science or to the law or to the means to persuade others. 
A faith based decision is incompatible with a reason based decision
and so I think it is ultimately an anti-social decision regardless of 
any incidental good effect that may flow from it by fortuitous
circumstances. 

> If  so, I am afraid <understatement of the month> your opinion fails
> to correspond to the state of affairs that exists in the real world
> </understatement of the month> - as this discussion has nicely
> demonstrated.

I'll just let that statement of yours stand. What is gratuitously asserted
doesn't always need to be gratuitously denied. 

Brett Paatsch



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 03:30:28 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:30:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <010301c568d5$5a155f40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> > On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Buzz off troll.
> > 
> > Well, I've cut you slack for reasons you've communicated to me in
> > private thereby leaving me feeling I need to lay off while out of
> > decency refraining from either arguing with you or telling anyone
> why
> > I'm not arguing with you. But sod this for a lark; there are
> limits.
> > My political views on the matter of abortion happen to be closer to
> > yours than Mike's, but what of it? No, I will not buzz off. No, I
> will
> > not sit back and be quiet while you imply that anyone whose views
> > differ from yours is a troll. 
> 
> Russell, I think *you* have drawn an inference that Samantha did not
> imply. 
> 
> I do not think she was saying "Buzz of troll" to anyone other than
> Mike and even then only in relation to one particular post he made.
> 
> I like Mike. I respect Mike including respecting his concerns for 
> the issues of abortion.  But sometimes Mike *does* behave like a
> troll in that he seems to be deliberately inflamatory in order to get
> a response and perhaps to ensure that he can join the conversation. 
> Personally, I don't think Samantha was out of line in saying what she
> said on this occassion. 

On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have the power of
life and death over their kids. Such an attitude is IMHO little
different from that of a tyrant deciding who lives and who dies. It is
megalomaniacal. If anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is Samantha.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 03:39:20 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> Dubbed "Herakles," the system would use an ion beam produced from
> xenon gas 
> to propel the craft to speeds of 200,000 mph, 10 times faster than
> the top 
> speed of the space shuttle. :
> 
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002299705_ion04.html
> 

"The first ion thruster was installed on Deep Space 1, which was
launched in 1998 and conducted a flyby of comet Borrelly."

This is wrong. Ion thrusters have been in use since the 1970's on
non-American spacecraft. Deep Space 1 was the first deep space craft
whose primary propulsion was an ion engine.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 03:44:54 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:44:54 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
References: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02fd01c56980$ef68f290$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have 
> the power of life and death over their kids.

I know where you are coming from, I think, and so I accept that
you may have thought that was Samantha's implication but she
says it wasn't and I'm inclined to take her at her word. 

Could she have been gentler to you? Definately, but a lot has
been said on this topic of abortion including by you Mike. Some
of it quite good stuff. Yet you seem to relish the raising of issues
more than you care for the locking in off any incremental 
progress and that gets wearying sometimes.

> Such an attitude is IMHO little different from that of a tyrant
> deciding who lives and who dies. It is megalomaniacal. If 
> anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is Samantha.

I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
didn't tell me. 

Conversation with you can be like all rough foreplay and no
orgasm, in that one never gets to know if you have moved your
opinion one iota. 

Brett Paatsch
[heterosexual :-)]




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 04:04:49 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <02fd01c56980$ef68f290$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have 
> > the power of life and death over their kids.
> 
> I know where you are coming from, I think, and so I accept that
> you may have thought that was Samantha's implication but she
> says it wasn't and I'm inclined to take her at her word. 
> 
> Could she have been gentler to you? Definately, but a lot has
> been said on this topic of abortion including by you Mike. Some
> of it quite good stuff. Yet you seem to relish the raising of issues
> more than you care for the locking in off any incremental 
> progress and that gets wearying sometimes.

At risk of "but she started it", I tend to weary from seeing a lack of
progress, even incremental, by Samantha. I accept her claims she didn't
mean it the way it read. I hope she appreciates the impression she made
by the way she wrote what she did.

> 
> > Such an attitude is IMHO little different from that of a tyrant
> > deciding who lives and who dies. It is megalomaniacal. If 
> > anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is Samantha.
> 
> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
> didn't tell me. 

I've been offline since yesterday, so I hadn't seen that message. I've
been trying to get some more human reality lately....

> 
> Conversation with you can be like all rough foreplay and no
> orgasm, in that one never gets to know if you have moved your
> opinion one iota. 

The only way someone can move my opinions on something is to try to
convince me how their policy opinion adheres to my principles closer
than my own policy opinion.

IMHO too much of the pro-abortion types, even those that claim to be
libertarians, tend to be of the same limited vision as bunkertarian or
nationalist libertarian types who too easily draw lines in the sand
beyond which they will not lift a finger to defend the liberty of
others. They lack the vision to see that those who blithely decide that
some people shouldn't live, given enough time to consolidate and grow
their power, will eventually turn their attention to the line drawers
who think their own position secure.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 04:14:20 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:14:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <02fd01c56980$ef68f290$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050605041420.45313.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>  
> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
> didn't tell me. 

I have now. IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump of
cells' is insane.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jun  5 04:30:30 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:30:30 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <02fd01c56980$ef68f290$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<02fd01c56980$ef68f290$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050604232844.01e33d98@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 01:44 PM 6/5/2005 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote:

>Conversation with you can be like all rough foreplay and no
>orgasm, in that one never gets to know if you have moved your
>opinion one iota.

Damn! I was hoping you were going to end that sentence with the words "one 
inch".  :)

Damien Broderick



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 04:37:08 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:37:08 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
References: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <034401c56988$3bc608b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
>> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
>> didn't tell me.
>
> I've been offline since yesterday, so I hadn't seen that message. I've
> been trying to get some more human reality lately....

Yesterday?, What short concentrations spans this young internet
generation has. I was refering to this post of the 21th May.
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2005-May/016263.html

    See "Please tell me that you took a look at the link and whether you
    found it persuasive.  I will then feel more confident that I am not 
wasting
    the time I am investing in you."


>> Conversation with you can be like all rough foreplay and no
>> orgasm, in that one never gets to know if you have moved your
>> opinion one iota.
>
> The only way someone can move my opinions on something is to try to
> convince me how their policy opinion adheres to my principles closer
> than my own policy opinion.

Thats a pretty tall order for you place on anyone. They'd have to
understand *your* principles and *your* policy first in order to get
you to change your opinion. Presumably you would not change your
statements if you had not changed your opinion, so your most exteme
statements would just go out looking like flame bait and you'd never
retract them, or am I wrong in this chain of reasoning?

> IMHO too much of the pro-abortion types, even those that claim
> to be libertarians, tend to be of the same limited vision as bunkertarian
> or nationalist libertarian types who too easily draw lines in the sand
> beyond which they will not lift a finger to defend the liberty of
> others.

>From what you say above it seems to follow that no one would be
able to change your opinion if they saw you merely as a type and
not specifically as Mike Lorrey, because you would just shrug it off
and say, and think, 'hey I'm not just a type', I'm Mike Lorrey (and
you'd be right). BUT then you throw types around so liberally
yourself. You don't seem to cut others the same degree of personal
slack that you demand they show you in order to change your view.

You have known Samantha and me and others that post to this list
to some extent at least for years. When do the statements of people
you know get to be treated as statements by people that are not
just types? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, I'm just genuinely
wondering.

> They lack the vision to see that those who blithely decide that
> some people shouldn't live, given enough time to consolidate
> and grow their power, will eventually turn their attention to the
> line drawers who think their own position secure.

If you look at the above link and the ones around it you'll see
that I went quite a distance with you (in terms of time spent
and lines of your text I had to read to check out what you
had to say, and I was happy to do that, but I didn't get much
by way of concrete feedback when I asked for it, and in terms
of you developing your ideas I don't know if much came of it
for you).

This meant that I didn't know if I had wasted my time trying to
talk to you or not. If I can never effect you enough for you
to treat me as more than a type then why should I continue
to try and treat you as more than a type?  You and I are mortals.
We want to think our time spent and invested in others is not
wasted, or at least I do. Aren't you the same?

Brett Paatsch 




From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 04:44:03 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:44:03 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
References: <20050605041420.45313.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <034b01c56989$32c2a420$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>  
>> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
>> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
>> didn't tell me. 
> 
> I have now. IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump of
> cells' is insane.

Me too. Well in a sort of way of thinking of "insane". 

But I haven't met anyone in real life that actually does. At 56 days
there is a lot of tissue there and something that looks quite a lot
more like a child then like just a clump of cells. 

By the time people get to know what a 56 day old fetus looks like 
they are beyond mouthing off simplistic statements and are ready
to have a serious conversation about ethics because they have the
tools. 

Thanks for checking that out. If a few others do perhaps the 
actual discussion can really begin. 

Regards 
Brett Paatsch



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 04:51:18 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:51:18 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and misspellings.
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200506021935.j52JZKR20191@tick.javien.com>
	<017301c568e1$07014060$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e050604021275feb036@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b701c568ed$5900ce10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060414567d726f4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<025f01c5695b$90934c40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<8d71341e05060418463719f783@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <640ABE1C-CF3A-4F9E-AD56-DE0E146248B4@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Russell Wallace wrote:

> On 6/5/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Russell, did you look at the link to the Virtual Human Embryo site?
>>
>
> No, you're missing the point - my opinion on that topic happens to be
> the same as yours. I do not have to personally subscribe to the
> minority view to object to a state of affairs where holders of the
> majority view do not see themselves obliged to observe civilized
> standards of discourse.
>

Calling my response to Mike in the context of what he actually wrote  
uncivilized is utterly unjust.  When I repeatedly and gently ask you  
to reexamine the context and reconsider you launch into a series of  
generalizations and suppositions about where I am (and presumably  
others are) coming from that completely fail to support your initial  
judgment much less justify your continued insistence on making a  
mountain of a molehill.

- s


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 05:06:25 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:06:25 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film
	ateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <79CB2374-AE84-46C1-BCDE-0C0848C985A3@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have the  
> power of
> life and death over their kids. Such an attitude is IMHO little
> different from that of a tyrant deciding who lives and who dies. It is
> megalomaniacal. If anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is  
> Samantha.
>

Bullshit.  I am saying that adult humans including women have the  
right to order there own lives including when and if they are going  
to bring a child into this world.  I neither said nor implied any of  
your snarling assertions.    I would also VERY strongly advise  
against talking about my needing a smack.   I take such imagery of  
violence being required to supposedly acquaint me with reality quite  
seriously.  Especially when delivered by a bully.

Russell, do you dare accuse me of uncivilized response in the face of  
such as this??   Is this mere expression of a purported minority  
opinion?

- s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 05:13:37 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:13:37 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C494382C-160F-45BE-B986-FFEA9ED750D1@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have
>>> the power of life and death over their kids.
>>>
>>
>> I know where you are coming from, I think, and so I accept that
>> you may have thought that was Samantha's implication but she
>> says it wasn't and I'm inclined to take her at her word.
>>
>> Could she have been gentler to you? Definately, but a lot has
>> been said on this topic of abortion including by you Mike. Some
>> of it quite good stuff. Yet you seem to relish the raising of issues
>> more than you care for the locking in off any incremental
>> progress and that gets wearying sometimes.
>>
>
> At risk of "but she started it", I tend to weary from seeing a lack of
> progress, even incremental, by Samantha. I accept her claims she  
> didn't
> mean it the way it read. I hope she appreciates the impression she  
> made
> by the way she wrote what she did.

I said what I meant.  A foetus only becomes a child if the woman  
carrying it decides that is her wish.   Looks pretty darn obvious to  
me and quite needing saying when even a blastocyst is being freely  
called a child.  You launched into a bunch of wild accusations  
against purported whole groups of women and what you think I think  
rather than what I said.  You then compared my position to a dictator  
and said I need a smack.  Who the hell is saying the more outrageous  
things here?

- samantha
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From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jun  5 05:49:34 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:49:34 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
References: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C494382C-160F-45BE-B986-FFEA9ED750D1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <03b101c56992$59d8a880$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Samantha wrote:

> A foetus only becomes a child if the woman carrying it
> decides that is her wish.

That would be *generally* true now, in 2005, because so far
as I know the word foetus extends from after day 56 (end of
week 8) up until the time of birth which could be nine months
later.

But it is not always true because sometimes women may
have accidents or fall into unconsciousness and then a 
foetus can be brought into the world by inducement or
by caesarean, rather than at the wish of the woman. 

You asked who was saying the more extreme things? 
Mike was in my opinion.  But Mike is not only about
saying controversial things, he has on this issue quite
a while ago made some good points, perhaps they just
tend to get overlooked sometimes because of how he says
them. 

Given that a foetus is the term used to describe even 
a human entity in the six to nine month period prior to birth,
at least some of which time that foetus has a capacity to live
independently of the mother, then I think it is fair, and indeed
appropriate to have a discussion (here if we are mature enough
for it and in other forums including in the parliaments and
congress whether we are mature enough for it or not because
policy is going to be set there) about what rights that human
entity ought have morally and legally and I think it is fair that
the males in a civil society be entitled to participate in that
discussion and in the formulation of policy. Males as members
of society have rights and obligations and issues to work through
with respect to how human entities at different ages ought be 
treated too. 

I don't think that you disagree with this Samantha. I certainly can't
recall you saying anything that implied you did. Mike has actually
advocated for males to be involved in the policy side. He's advocated
in a Mike like way but imo the purpose of his advocacy is
not wrong for that, just less effective than it might have been. 

Brett Paatsch
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 06:09:36 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:09:36 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <03b101c56992$59d8a880$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050605040450.60673.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C494382C-160F-45BE-B986-FFEA9ED750D1@mac.com>
	<03b101c56992$59d8a880$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <ADEE4B6D-D3B5-4310-94B7-C932C6F283E1@mac.com>


On Jun 4, 2005, at 10:49 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

>
> I don't think that you disagree with this Samantha. I certainly can't
> recall you saying anything that implied you did. Mike has actually
> advocated for males to be involved in the policy side. He's advocated
> in a Mike like way but imo the purpose of his advocacy is
> not wrong for that, just less effective than it might have been.
>

Mike is not speaking remotely in a way that allows a discussion.  I  
will not pretend otherwise.

- s
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 10:23:00 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:23:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05060503231d1c37a4@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> This is wrong. Ion thrusters have been in use since the 1970's on
> non-American spacecraft. Deep Space 1 was the first deep space craft
> whose primary propulsion was an ion engine.
> 



SMART-1's Ion Drive: From Fiction to Fact (launched Sept 2003) 
<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/technovel_smart-1_041119.html>
SMART-1, the European Space Agency craft currently in orbit around the
moon, makes use of a technology that was pure science fiction until
the 1960s - the ion drive. An ion drive is a method of propulsion that
uses electricity to create charged ions and then accelerate them with
a magnetic field, pushing them out the rear of a spacecraft.
SMART-1 has a stationary plasma thruster using xenon gas with 1190
watts of power available, giving a nominal thrust of 68 mN. The
spacecraft contains 48 liters of xenon gas at 150 bar. The lifetime of
the thruster is 7,000 hours at maximum power. The thrust is equivalent
to two pennies resting in the palm of your hand.


Good article on Electric Spacecraft Propulsion
<http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=34201>
Geostationary communications satellites have used electric propulsion
systems for station keeping since the early nineteen-eighties. Low
Earth orbit satellites, such as the Iridium mobile communications
cluster, have also used electric propulsion for orbit adjustments but
the use of electric propulsion as a spacecraft's primary means of
propulsion has been restricted to experimental vehicles such as NASA's
Deep Space One, which was equipped with a xenon ion engine.


BillK


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun  5 10:30:21 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:30:21 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e05060503231d1c37a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>	<20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ee50357e05060503231d1c37a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42A2D43D.5050708@neopax.com>

BillK wrote:

>On 6/5/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>This is wrong. Ion thrusters have been in use since the 1970's on
>>non-American spacecraft. Deep Space 1 was the first deep space craft
>>whose primary propulsion was an ion engine.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>SMART-1's Ion Drive: From Fiction to Fact (launched Sept 2003) 
><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/technovel_smart-1_041119.html>
>SMART-1, the European Space Agency craft currently in orbit around the
>moon, makes use of a technology that was pure science fiction until
>the 1960s - the ion drive. An ion drive is a method of propulsion that
>uses electricity to create charged ions and then accelerate them with
>a magnetic field, pushing them out the rear of a spacecraft.
>SMART-1 has a stationary plasma thruster using xenon gas with 1190
>watts of power available, giving a nominal thrust of 68 mN. The
>spacecraft contains 48 liters of xenon gas at 150 bar. The lifetime of
>the thruster is 7,000 hours at maximum power. The thrust is equivalent
>to two pennies resting in the palm of your hand.
>
>  
>
Planet Earth had a greater space capability in the 1960s than it does now.
The moon race utterly screwed the entire space program.
The way it should have been done was the way it was done in SF. Namely, 
a fully reusable spaceplane followed by a space station and then moon 
landings and onwards to Mars. The past 30yrs has been a waste of time 
and money.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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From charlie at stross.org.uk  Sun Jun  5 12:19:42 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:19:42 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
Message-ID: <84ed2486741149df314ef4740564466e@stross.org.uk>



On 5 Jun 2005, at 11:30, Dirk Bruere wrote:

Planet Earth had a greater space capability in the 1960s than it does 
now.
The moon race utterly screwed the entire space program.
The way it should have been done was the way it was done in SF. Namely, 
a fully reusable spaceplane followed by a space station and then moon 
landings and onwards to Mars. The past 30yrs has been a waste of time 
and money.

Au contraire :)

The past 30 years have taught us many things.

1. A spaceship needs wings and a retractable undercarriage like an 
automobile needs oars and sails.

2. Repeated paper studies (in search of the perfect space station 
design) cost more and deliver less than bending metal and patching 
prototypes in orbit (the Russian approach).

3. Putting intelligence into probes is a lot cheaper than adding mass. 
(Note the way Galileo, despite the high-gain antenna failure, managed 
to return masses of data to Earth via the low-gain antenna at a low bit 
rate, by using new compression algorithms that simply weren?t available 
when it was launched. If Galileo had been built with Pioneer 10 levels 
of smarts and launched a decade earlier, it would have been a failure.)

4. 30 years ago the ?space industry? then existing was basically the 
military-industrial complex. Today, entirely commercial space 
transportation services are turning over more money than the global air 
freight business. (And you call this an ?abject failure?? Put it 
another way, government funding for space could stop tomorrow, and we?d 
still have a presence to  build on.)

5. Materials technology is moving on, and if bonded fullerenes achieve 
their potential -- and there are lots of profitable intermediate steps 
on the way to getting what we *really* want -- then building a space 
elevator should be a civil engineering project on the same order of 
cost as the Channel Tunnel. At which point it will happen. Profitable 
industry #1 that really, REALLY needs a space elevator? High level 
radioactive waste disposal. (You simply can?t trust it to something as 
unreliable as a rocket.)

I don?t call this a disaster; I call this solid progress, given that 
we?re constrained by both physical laws (meaning: chemical rockets 
won?t get us much more bang per buck than we?ve already got) and 
complexity and scaling laws (meaning: as we add complexity, we increase 
the chances of failure dramatically -- and yes, I?m talking about 
direct nuclear-thermal propulsion here).


-- Charlie



From charlie at stross.org.uk  Sun Jun  5 12:20:16 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:20:16 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>

On 5 Jun 2005, at 01:06, Brett Paatsch wrote:

Charlie Stross wrote:

Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal
world involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn?t occur,

I can?t agree with that.
First, not everyone that posts to the ExI chat list is an extropian.
Arguably no one is.

Well, if you want to split hairs that way ...

Two, ?figuring out how to make conception a process under
voluntary control? was achieved ages ago. Don?t have sex - unless
your willing get pregnant

Tell that to a rape victim.

I repeat: conception is *not* under voluntary control. Celibacy is a  
condition which may be terminated involuntarily. (Moreover, it?s not an  
easily maintained condition for the majority of people.)

The subtext I see behind all this rhetoric about celibacy and the evils  
of abortion is a total phobia of icky females enjoying sex, with a  
side-order of the kind of deep unease about the flesh that --  
ironically -- the more technophobic commentators tend to attribute to  
extropians.

To get gene-line engineering working as a solution as you suggest
it doesn?t just have to be technologically practical it has to be  
politically practical. Guess what the catholics and others who prefer
their solution to the one you propose would vote against your solution
in large numbers even if you could get a political party to put it on  
the
agenda.

Heh. ?Politically practical.? We now have the sub-text out in the open.  
I should like to note that, along with the US state department, the  
other forces trying to scupper the UN WHO proposal that access to  
contraception and abortion should be basic rights available to women  
world-wide were the most barking batshit reactionary islamic  
fundamentalists on the planet -- notably the governments of Saudi  
Arabia and Iran. These are the same chittering dark-ages ass-hats who  
think that vaccinating girls against HPV is an incitement to  
promiscuity, because the mere concept that they could be infected by  
their husbands doesn?t occur to them.

The sub-text of the entire ?human life begins at 10^6 cells/^10^3/1  
cell? debate is that a *potential* life is worth as much, if not more,  
than the *actual* life of the woman who is expected by the  
anti-abortion lobby to go through a somewhat hazardous medical  
condition (which, in the wild, has a 5-10% fatality rate) and then --  
this is implicit in the whole mess -- spend the next twenty years of  
life surrendering their potential for self-actualization to that other  
formerly potential person. Who then gets to do the whole same thing (if  
they?re female) or benefit from all that hard work (if they?re not).

As a non-American who lives in a country where at the last poll just  
short of 90% of the population approved of abortion being available on  
demand, let me say that I think this discussion would be ludicrous if  
it wasn?t evil. And it *is* evil when we get to the real loonies who  
are trying to convince the god-botherers that condoms don?t work, that  
hormonal contraceptives are abortifacients, and that the only  
acceptable place for a woman is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

There are, incidentally, reasons why this highly damaging meme achieves  
traction in modern religious communities. (Here?s a fairly acute blog  
entry which puts it fairly concisely:
http://hot_needle_of_inquiry.blogspot.com/2005/04/stable-strategy-set- 
defectors.html)

Three, when humanity cuts in, as you put it, is not a trivial question.
Its an important one. And discussions about it that develop the
thinking of people involved in them are discussions worth having.
When Galileo looked through a telescope and saw Jupiter and its
moons he was seeing what was there. If the Pope had been willing
to look through the telescope the Pope too would have seen what
was there. Perhaps the Pope would have questioned whether he
could trust this new fangled piece of technology or not but at least
his taking a look would have progressed his thinking a long a bit.
Perhaps he could have had another telescope built. Perhaps his
eminence could have gotten the telescope deconstructed and
reassembled.

Urban legends don?t aid the debate. Galileo was to a very large extent  
*protected* by the then Pope, who was a friend of his; what got him  
into trouble was court politics, aggravated by his inability to keep  
his mouth shut at the right time. You will note that Galileo was *not*  
burned at the stake despite this being a fairly common outcome for  
heretics at the time ... and that the reason for the draconian response  
to heresy was that it had political implications: religious doctrine  
was then the accepted way of understanding how the world works, and  
questioning its veracity raised implications for the way state policy  
was formed. That?s *never* a safe or easy thing to do; we can see it  
today in the way the Bush administration treats science funding in  
areas that don?t appear to support their preconceptions.




-- Charlie



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 13:33:35 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:33:35 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <ee50357e050605063360d2a00d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/05, Charlie Stross wrote:
> 
> Urban legends don't aid the debate. Galileo was to a very large extent
> *protected* by the then Pope, who was a friend of his; what got him
> into trouble was court politics, aggravated by his inability to keep
> his mouth shut at the right time. You will note that Galileo was *not*
> burned at the stake despite this being a fairly common outcome for
> heretics at the time ... and that the reason for the draconian response
> to heresy was that it had political implications: religious doctrine
> was then the accepted way of understanding how the world works, and
> questioning its veracity raised implications for the way state policy
> was formed. That's *never* a safe or easy thing to do; we can see it
> today in the way the Bush administration treats science funding in
> areas that don't appear to support their preconceptions.
> 

Hmmmn.  Stretching a bit here, I feel.
The Catholic Church is very keen nowadays to distance itself from the
Galileo affair and claim that they are not really anti-science.
See - we didn't burn him at the stake. We're nice guys really.

But the facts are still there. What they try to do is spin them another way.
Galileo was forced to recant under the threat of torture and placed
under house arrest for the rest of his life.
Now while this may be due to Galileo upsetting church politics, (and
the Catholic church is a very political bureaucracy), the message that
this sent out to the public was - Galileo is 'nearly' a heretic,
imprisoned and his books banned. Do as the church says or you're next.


Quotes:
His book was to immediately receive wide acceptance and circulation,
only to be suddenly barred by order of the pope himself. Urban moved
quickly to appoint a commission to determine possible charges for the
Office of the Inquisition. Galileo was warned "the sky is about to
fall" by his friend the Duke of Tuscany. The commission found ample
evidence of charges for heresy. Galileo was at this time 70 years old
and wanted to have the charges heard in Florence. He was losing his
eyesight, had severe arthritis and suffered from bouts of colitis. He
only agreed to go to Rome after officers of the Inquisition threatened
to transport him there in chains.
He was given time to re-read his "Dialogues", and, after being shown
the instruments of torture, encouraged to write a judicial confession.
Galileo wrote that he would weaken his theories so that they would
lack any force. This was not good enough for the Inquisition, who
wanted him to admit that he knew of the injunction and chose to ignore
it. Galileo acquiesced. He was found "vehemently suspected of heresy"
and was sentenced to imprisonment at the pleasure of the Office of
Inquisition.
Pope Urban allowed the repentant heretic to depart the bleak
accommodations of the Office of Inquisition in Rome and take up house
arrest under strict conditions, first in the village of Sienna, and
then later in his native Tuscany.
For the rest of his life Galileo remained under house arrest. He was
not allowed to take any extensive trips or to entertain many guests.
Following the death of his favourite daughter in 1634, he lived a
lonely life and became blind in 1637. Despite the attempt to isolate
him from the world, his fame grew ? such noted figures as Thomas
Hobbes and the poet John Milton went out of their way to visit him
shortly before his death in 1642. In 1757 after the accuracy of his
research had been established beyond reasonable doubt, the Inquisition
removed the ban on all books that taught the earth moves except those
by Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. The fallout from this continued to
have a ripple effect all over Europe. The unshackled search for
scientific truth was frequently accompanied by hostility to spiritual
and religious truth.
End quotes.


BillK


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun  5 14:02:53 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:02:53 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050605063360d2a00d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<ee50357e050605063360d2a00d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42A3060D.9080305@neopax.com>

BillK wrote:

>On 6/5/05, Charlie Stross wrote:
>  
>
>>Urban legends don't aid the debate. Galileo was to a very large extent
>>*protected* by the then Pope, who was a friend of his; what got him
>>into trouble was court politics, aggravated by his inability to keep
>>his mouth shut at the right time. You will note that Galileo was *not*
>>burned at the stake despite this being a fairly common outcome for
>>heretics at the time ... and that the reason for the draconian response
>>to heresy was that it had political implications: religious doctrine
>>was then the accepted way of understanding how the world works, and
>>questioning its veracity raised implications for the way state policy
>>was formed. That's *never* a safe or easy thing to do; we can see it
>>today in the way the Bush administration treats science funding in
>>areas that don't appear to support their preconceptions.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Hmmmn.  Stretching a bit here, I feel.
>The Catholic Church is very keen nowadays to distance itself from the
>Galileo affair and claim that they are not really anti-science.
>See - we didn't burn him at the stake. We're nice guys really.
>
>But the facts are still there. What they try to do is spin them another way.
>Galileo was forced to recant under the threat of torture and placed
>under house arrest for the rest of his life.
>Now while this may be due to Galileo upsetting church politics, (and
>the Catholic church is a very political bureaucracy), the message that
>this sent out to the public was - Galileo is 'nearly' a heretic,
>imprisoned and his books banned. Do as the church says or you're next.
>
>  
>
Perhaps you'd like to compare this with the fate of Wilhem Reich.
http://www.hermes-press.com/reich.htm

In 1947, following a vicious smear article in the /New Republic/ by 
Mildred Edie Brady, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) began an 
investigation into Reich's orgone energy accumulator. The Brady article 
claimed that Reich was conducting a sex racket, and the FDA assumed that 
his books must be pornographic literature. The FDA gestapo were 
uninterested in scientific information concerning the accumulator, and 
when Reich refused to cooperate with their witch hunt, the investigation 
bogged down, lacking any evidence against the accumulator.

 In 1954, during the Joe McCarthy era, the American feds decided to go 
after Reich again. Without any proof whatsoever, the Food and Drug 
Administration succeeded in having a federal court brand the accumulator 
a fraud, with the added dictum that orgone energy does not exist, and 
the order that all literature even mentioning orgone energy should be 
burned. The FDA placed a ban on transporting or using Reich's orgone 
boxes. Because one of Reich's co-workers continued to transport the 
orgone boxes, Reich was imprisoned. He died of a heart attack in prison 
at the age of 60 in 1957, the day before he was to go up for parole.

______

There is also a subtext that is not often mentioned in that various US 
agencies, from the USAF to the CIA, wanted the 'secrets' of Orgone 
energy. His mistake was to tell them to take a hike.

And let's not forget that this was not set in the Galileo era but in my 
lifetime.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun  5 14:08:39 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:08:39 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <9e6fc1014d7c2982071ef2fcff0f8497@antipope.org>
References: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>	<20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ee50357e05060503231d1c37a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A2D43D.5050708@neopax.com>
	<9e6fc1014d7c2982071ef2fcff0f8497@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <42A30767.5080806@neopax.com>

Charlie Stross wrote:

>
> On 5 Jun 2005, at 11:30, Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
>>>
>> Planet Earth had a greater space capability in the 1960s than it does 
>> now.
>> The moon race utterly screwed the entire space program.
>> The way it should have been done was the way it was done in SF. 
>> Namely, a fully reusable spaceplane followed by a space station and 
>> then moon landings and onwards to Mars. The past 30yrs has been a 
>> waste of time and money.
>
>
> Au contraire :)
>
> The past 30 years have taught us many things.
>
> 1. A spaceship needs wings and a retractable undercarriage like an 
> automobile needs oars and sails.
>
I'd dispute that.
Almost all designs for a fully reusable spacecraft have wings.

> 2. Repeated paper studies (in search of the perfect space station 
> design) cost more and deliver less than bending metal and patching 
> prototypes in orbit (the Russian approach).
>
And also the US approach up to (around) the mid 1960s.
That's why we went from piston engined aircraft to manned orbital flight 
in less than 20yrs.

> 3. Putting intelligence into probes is a lot cheaper than adding mass. 
> (Note the way Galileo, despite the high-gain antenna failure, managed 
> to return masses of data to Earth via the low-gain antenna at a low 
> bit rate, by using new compression algorithms that simply weren't 
> available when it was launched. If Galileo had been built with Pioneer 
> 10 levels of smarts and launched a decade earlier, it would have been 
> a failure.)
>
That's thanks to the semiconductor industry and would have happened anyway.

> 4. 30 years ago the "space industry" then existing was basically the 
> military-industrial complex. Today, entirely commercial space 
> transportation services are turning over more money than the global 
> air freight business. (And you call this an "abject failure"? Put it 
> another way, government funding for space could stop tomorrow, and 
> we'd still have a presence to  build on.)
>
That's a capability that existed in the mid 1960s. Or don't satellites 
get lofted by Titans anymore?
The market is comsats, weathersats and spysats.
It is not what I call a 'real' space program.

> 5. Materials technology is moving on, and if bonded fullerenes achieve 
> their potential -- and there are lots of profitable intermediate steps 
> on the way to getting what we *really* want -- then building a space 
> elevator should be a civil engineering project on the same order of 
> cost as the Channel Tunnel. At which point it will happen. Profitable 
> industry #1 that really, REALLY needs a space elevator? High level 
> radioactive waste disposal. (You simply can't trust it to something as 
> unreliable as a rocket.)
>
All this would have happened without any investment in space tech at all.

> I don't call this a disaster; I call this solid progress, given that 
> we're constrained by both physical laws (meaning: chemical rockets 
> won't get us much more bang per buck than we've already got) and 
> complexity and scaling laws (meaning: as we add complexity, we 
> increase the chances of failure dramatically -- and yes, I'm talking 
> about direct nuclear-thermal propulsion here).
>
I call it billion (trillions?) of dollars down the drain with nothing to 
show for it except some old footprints in the Lunar soil.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jun  5 14:11:27 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:11:27 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey
In-Reply-To: <003f01c56903$a61c0640$e2893cd1@pavilion>
References: <003f01c56903$a61c0640$e2893cd1@pavilion>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050605091018.02f5a250@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

I'd like to introduce you to John Spencer, space architect and founder of 
Space Tourism Society.  Please let me know if you are interested and I will 
do this offline.

Natasha

At 07:48 AM 6/4/2005, you wrote:
>From: "J. Fox" fox at nevadalink.com
>Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:34 PM
>Subject: Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey
>
>
>I am conducting a survey on Sub-Orbital Space Tourism for a graduate
>project.  I invite all on the list to to participate by downloading the
>survey, filling the survey out, and mailing the completed survey to me.
>
>Please Note:  Deadline for the completed survey is June 30, 2005 for the
>USA, and July 15 for surveys sent from outside the USA.
>
>Thank you for your time and contributions.
>
>The link to the survey (PDF format 36k):
>
>http://web1.greatbasin.net/~dayton-nevada/Questionaire.pdf
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
[_______________________________________________
President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org
[_____________________________________________________
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness..." Anne Herbet

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From neptune at superlink.net  Sun Jun  5 14:35:29 2005
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:35:29 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey
References: <003f01c56903$a61c0640$e2893cd1@pavilion>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050605091018.02f5a250@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c569db$d2ac7900$ec893cd1@pavilion>

I passed along your post to J. Fox.

Regards,

Dan
    See "Freedom Above or Tyranny Below" at:
http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/SpaceFreedom.html
  From: Natasha Vita-More 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Sub-Orbital Space Tourism Survey


  I'd like to introduce you to John Spencer, space architect and founder of Space Tourism Society.  Please let me know if you are interested and I will do this offline.

  Natasha
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  5 15:20:44 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050605152044.77524.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Dubbed "Herakles," the system would use an ion beam produced from
> xenon gas 
> to propel the craft to speeds of 200,000 mph, 10 times faster than
> the top 
> speed of the space shuttle. :
> 
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002299705_ion04.html

> The new system would make the moon, which is about 239,000 miles away
> from Earth, a short trip.

Only if it could get anywhere near max speed within that distance.  Ion
thrusters are not known for high thrust.  (Perhaps this could be
changed, but probably not at NASA anytime soon.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Jun  5 16:19:07 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050605161907.33320.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
> For this exersize, we must consider the paper (or other substrate)
> and 
> the rather exotic inks
> as raw materials. At the system level, a small production plant for
> the 
> paper and a small production
> plant for each of the inks is likely to be a whole lot easier to
> build 
> than even the smallest conceivable
> infrastructure based on silicon wafers.

Or possibly thin sheets of rock instead of paper, depending on the
intended environment; the printer would be modified accordingly.

> Can someone point me to
> references?

There is of course von Neumann's work, especially the book "Theory of
Self-Reproducing Automata" (a posthumous collection of his unpublished
work), which you can find at http://www.walenz.org/vonNeumann/ .  Or
check the bottom (majority) of http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~sipper/selfrep/
for a starting point.

One problem that systems like this keep running into is the need to,
within their own information space, both encode their own complete
information space and instructions as to how to replicate it.  I think
one could get around this by coding up instructions for subcomponents,
such as transistors or entire gates, and then having the "main" program
just refer to these subcomponents by index.  (Higher level encoding
might be needed; e.g., to write the ROM that encodes a single step of
instructions would need a single step of instructions.)

Perhaps one could write, as the main focus of the paper, an example
self-replicating circuit.  Assuming the existence of an ink jet printer
with which to write it, create a circuit with five outputs (plus x
motion, minus x motion, plus y motion, minus y motion, and deposit ink)
and one input (power, with crude clock signals being provided by
on-chip flip-flops), have it trace through the motions necessary to
deposit itself.  Again, though, the encoding would be the main
challenge here.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 16:25:15 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <034401c56988$3bc608b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050605162515.91674.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >> Conversation with you can be like all rough foreplay and no
> >> orgasm, in that one never gets to know if you have moved your
> >> opinion one iota.
> >
> > The only way someone can move my opinions on something is to try to
> > convince me how their policy opinion adheres to my principles
> > closer than my own policy opinion.
> 
> Thats a pretty tall order for you place on anyone. They'd have to
> understand *your* principles and *your* policy first in order to get
> you to change your opinion. Presumably you would not change your
> statements if you had not changed your opinion, so your most exteme
> statements would just go out looking like flame bait and you'd never
> retract them, or am I wrong in this chain of reasoning?

I sometimes change my opinion based on new information, in that I tend
to be my own best devils advocate.

As one of my principles is to not initiate force, generally if I'm
flaming someone, it is what I see as a reaction, not an initiation.
Unless the instigator clarifies what they said (as Samantha did), the
flame remains just and stands.

> 
> > IMHO too much of the pro-abortion types, even those that claim
> > to be libertarians, tend to be of the same limited vision as
> bunkertarian
> > or nationalist libertarian types who too easily draw lines in the
> sand
> > beyond which they will not lift a finger to defend the liberty of
> > others.
> 
> >From what you say above it seems to follow that no one would be
> able to change your opinion if they saw you merely as a type and
> not specifically as Mike Lorrey, because you would just shrug it off
> and say, and think, 'hey I'm not just a type', I'm Mike Lorrey (and
> you'd be right). BUT then you throw types around so liberally
> yourself. You don't seem to cut others the same degree of personal
> slack that you demand they show you in order to change your view.

On the contrary, I give everyone an equal opportunity to categorize
themselves, or at least display their affinities and allegiances. My
own views are out there, on the net, on my blog, and have been
generally consistent and based on the same principles over a long
period of time. That I am Mike Lorrey and not a 'type' evolves from the
fact that I don't accept party dogma at face value but try to work out
my own opinions from first principles. This has obviously led to strife
between myself and some crypto-pacifists who've been trying to enforce
their orthodoxy on the  libertarian world.

> 
> You have known Samantha and me and others that post to this list
> to some extent at least for years. When do the statements of people
> you know get to be treated as statements by people that are not
> just types? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, I'm just genuinely
> wondering.

Samantha tends to be a unique case because she has established a long
history of emotionally based statements that lack a rational footing.
Not all the time, mind you, as she is quite capable of rationality and
has demonstrated it, but on frequent enough occasion that it is
difficult to figure out without physically checking her hormone levels
how she is going to act or react to something, although I'm currently
99% sure that this statement is going to piss her off. That it needs to
be said to answer your question, IMHO overrides the demands of list
harmony.

> 
> > They lack the vision to see that those who blithely decide that
> > some people shouldn't live, given enough time to consolidate
> > and grow their power, will eventually turn their attention to the
> > line drawers who think their own position secure.
> 
> If you look at the above link and the ones around it you'll see
> that I went quite a distance with you (in terms of time spent
> and lines of your text I had to read to check out what you
> had to say, and I was happy to do that, but I didn't get much
> by way of concrete feedback when I asked for it, and in terms
> of you developing your ideas I don't know if much came of it
> for you).

Ah, well, I wasn't aware you were looking for feedback. I have been
under a bit of stress lately and haven't been paying too serious
attention to things here other than the semi-daily browse through the
posts. I appreciate you've gone a distance with me, and any lack of
feedback may indicate that I either agreed with you or did not disagree
strenuously enough to want to add to the debate.

> 
> This meant that I didn't know if I had wasted my time trying to
> talk to you or not. If I can never effect you enough for you
> to treat me as more than a type then why should I continue
> to try and treat you as more than a type?  You and I are mortals.
> We want to think our time spent and invested in others is not
> wasted, or at least I do. Aren't you the same?

Generally so, but I've been trying to not be so emotionally invested in
this list, because it has disappointed me so frequently in the past. If
that is seen as detachement or disregard, I apologize.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 16:32:44 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <034b01c56989$32c2a420$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050605163244.93039.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >>  
> >> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
> >> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
> >> didn't tell me. 
> > 
> > I have now. IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump
> of
> > cells' is insane.
> 
> Me too. Well in a sort of way of thinking of "insane". 

I would put it that someone who believed a 56 day old fetus was a clump
of cells with no rights to exist is someone that should be under
scrutiny for sociopathic tendencies.

> 
> But I haven't met anyone in real life that actually does. At 56 days
> there is a lot of tissue there and something that looks quite a lot
> more like a child then like just a clump of cells. 

I'd like to hear Samantha's view on this. 56 days isn't even two months
yet, well within the first trimester that most women tend to believe is
their rightful period to execute an abortion without guilt or remorse.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 16:39:14 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <C494382C-160F-45BE-B986-FFEA9ED750D1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050605163914.85919.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote: 
> On Jun 4, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >>> On the contrary, Samantha was implying that all women have
> >>> the power of life and death over their kids.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I know where you are coming from, I think, and so I accept that
> >> you may have thought that was Samantha's implication but she
> >> says it wasn't and I'm inclined to take her at her word.
> >>
> >> Could she have been gentler to you? Definately, but a lot has
> >> been said on this topic of abortion including by you Mike. Some
> >> of it quite good stuff. Yet you seem to relish the raising of
> issues
> >> more than you care for the locking in off any incremental
> >> progress and that gets wearying sometimes.
> >>
> >
> > At risk of "but she started it", I tend to weary from seeing a lack
> > of progress, even incremental, by Samantha. I accept her claims
> > she didn't mean it the way it read. I hope she appreciates the
> > impression she made by the way she wrote what she did.
> 
> I said what I meant.  A foetus only becomes a child if the woman  
> carrying it decides that is her wish.   Looks pretty darn obvious to 
> me and quite needing saying when even a blastocyst is being freely  
> called a child.  

On the contrary, Samantha, your statement makes the wildly bold
assertion that a fetus is a blastocyst as long as the woman chooses to
call it that. That is, at risk of causing further strife, clearly
sociopathic.

> You launched into a bunch of wild accusations  
> against purported whole groups of women and what you think I think  
> rather than what I said.  You then compared my position to a dictator
> and said I need a smack.  Who the hell is saying the more outrageous 
> things here?

Your contorting a metaphor into a claim of a physical threat is just
the sort of wild and outrageously irrational hyperbole I've come to
expect from you. It is highly objectionable. I was asking rhetorical
questions. You went off the deep end.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 16:51:40 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050605063360d2a00d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050605165140.2539.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
 
> Hmmmn.  Stretching a bit here, I feel.
> The Catholic Church is very keen nowadays to distance itself from the
> Galileo affair and claim that they are not really anti-science.
> See - we didn't burn him at the stake. We're nice guys really.
> 
> But the facts are still there. What they try to do is spin them
> another way.
> Galileo was forced to recant under the threat of torture and placed
> under house arrest for the rest of his life.
> Now while this may be due to Galileo upsetting church politics, (and
> the Catholic church is a very political bureaucracy), the message
> that
> this sent out to the public was - Galileo is 'nearly' a heretic,
> imprisoned and his books banned. Do as the church says or you're
> next.

The Church preserved aristotlean and other science through the middle
ages, what wasn't dripping with roman or greek paganism. The Galileo
affair should more properly be looked at as a conflict over whether new
science should supplant old science in a spirit of open inquiry.
Looking at the witch-hunts the scientific establishment has instigated
over the past decade wrt cold fusion, abiotic oil, and other theories
and phenomena, I really don't see as much has changed, except the
scientific establishment is the new Church.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 16:53:34 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:53:34 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605162515.91674.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605162515.91674.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1B528FCB-1014-49FA-924F-D69A202BE6B9@mac.com>


On Jun 5, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> I sometimes change my opinion based on new information, in that I tend
> to be my own best devils advocate.
>
> As one of my principles is to not initiate force, generally if I'm
> flaming someone, it is what I see as a reaction, not an initiation.
> Unless the instigator clarifies what they said (as Samantha did), the
> flame remains just and stands.
>
>

Gee I guess it must be in the eye of Mike Lorrey that your e-violence  
is perfectly justified.  Maybe it would be better to find out what  
was meant first before dropping the verbal nuke.



>>
>>
>>> IMHO too much of the pro-abortion types, even those that claim
>>> to be libertarians, tend to be of the same limited vision as
>>>
>> bunkertarian
>>
>>> or nationalist libertarian types who too easily draw lines in the
>>>
>> sand
>>
>>> beyond which they will not lift a finger to defend the liberty of
>>> others.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> From what you say above it seems to follow that no one would be
>>>
>> able to change your opinion if they saw you merely as a type and
>> not specifically as Mike Lorrey, because you would just shrug it off
>> and say, and think, 'hey I'm not just a type', I'm Mike Lorrey (and
>> you'd be right). BUT then you throw types around so liberally
>> yourself. You don't seem to cut others the same degree of personal
>> slack that you demand they show you in order to change your view.
>>
>
> On the contrary, I give everyone an equal opportunity to categorize
> themselves, or at least display their affinities and allegiances. My
> own views are out there, on the net, on my blog, and have been
> generally consistent and based on the same principles over a long
> period of time. That I am Mike Lorrey and not a 'type' evolves from  
> the
> fact that I don't accept party dogma at face value but try to work out
> my own opinions from first principles. This has obviously led to  
> strife
> between myself and some crypto-pacifists who've been trying to enforce
> their orthodoxy on the  libertarian world.

What a strange construction.  It appears to say that you give  
everyone an opportunity to be slotted into  your system of pigeon- 
holes.   That you grant yourself individual uniqueness outside such  
characterization but not others.

>
>
>>
>> You have known Samantha and me and others that post to this list
>> to some extent at least for years. When do the statements of people
>> you know get to be treated as statements by people that are not
>> just types? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, I'm just genuinely
>> wondering.
>>
>
> Samantha tends to be a unique case because she has established a long
> history of emotionally based statements that lack a rational footing.

In this latest exchange it was you who came out with emotional guns  
blazing.  After dropping a nuke or two you then calm down and explain  
if not your position then how your actions were justified.  Maybe you  
despise in me what you are most uncomfortable with in yourself.

> Not all the time, mind you, as she is quite capable of rationality and
> has demonstrated it, but on frequent enough occasion that it is
> difficult to figure out without physically checking her hormone levels
> how she is going to act or react to something, although I'm currently
> 99% sure that this statement is going to piss her off. That it  
> needs to
> be said to answer your question, IMHO overrides the demands of list
> harmony.

I don't enjoy third person dissection especially by someone  
manifestly incompetent to do so.

- s
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 16:55:16 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:55:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605163244.93039.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605163244.93039.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6F163F4A-6875-4114-A98B-38B53DA18DF1@mac.com>

I am sorry but after your tirades I refuse to discuss this topic with  
you.  I did not want to discuss this topic in the first place and  
certainly not with you.


On Jun 5, 2005, at 9:32 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>
>>> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had enjoyed discussing abortion with you but when I asked
>>>> you if you'd checked out the Virtual Human Embryo site you
>>>> didn't tell me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have now. IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> cells' is insane.
>>>
>>
>> Me too. Well in a sort of way of thinking of "insane".
>>
>
> I would put it that someone who believed a 56 day old fetus was a  
> clump
> of cells with no rights to exist is someone that should be under
> scrutiny for sociopathic tendencies.
>
>
>>
>> But I haven't met anyone in real life that actually does. At 56 days
>> there is a lot of tissue there and something that looks quite a lot
>> more like a child then like just a clump of cells.
>>
>
> I'd like to hear Samantha's view on this. 56 days isn't even two  
> months
> yet, well within the first trimester that most women tend to  
> believe is
> their rightful period to execute an abortion without guilt or remorse.
>
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Jun  5 18:05:29 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:05:29 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructsin	public!Filmateleven.
References: <20050605162515.91674.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1B528FCB-1014-49FA-924F-D69A202BE6B9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <004601c569f9$29014750$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: Samantha Atkins 
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:53 AM

>>> ... it seems to follow that no one would be able to change your opinion if they saw you merely as a type and not specifically as Mike Lorrey, because you would just shrug it off and say, and think, 'hey I'm not just a type', I'm Mike Lorrey (and you'd be right). BUT then you throw types around so liberally yourself. You don't seem to cut others the same degree of personal slack that you demand they show you in order to change your view.

>>  On the contrary, I give everyone an equal opportunity to categorize themselves, or at least display their affinities and allegiances. My own views are out there, on the net, on my blog, and have been generally consistent and based on the same principles over a long period of time. That I am Mike Lorrey and not a 'type' evolves from the fact that I don't accept party dogma at face value but try to work out my own opinions from first principles. This has obviously led to strife between myself and some crypto-pacifists who've been trying to enforce their orthodoxy on the  libertarian world.

> What a strange construction.  It appears to say that you give everyone an opportunity to be slotted into  your system of pigeon-holes.   That you grant yourself individual uniqueness outside such characterization but not others.

Right on.  I had observed the same thing, and you have expressed it perfectly, Samantha.

Olga
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun  5 21:01:22 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:01:22 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605163244.93039.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605163244.93039.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <41C46A21-AD7D-415A-83B2-2BB5C9E2A00A@mac.com>

On second thought I will briefly wade into the swamp.

On Jun 5, 2005, at 9:32 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> I would put it that someone who believed a 56 day old fetus was a  
> clump
> of cells with no rights to exist is someone that should be under
> scrutiny for sociopathic tendencies.
>

Judgmental and prejudicial of discussion as ever I see.   Why do you  
belief that just because the 56 day old fetus has a bit more rounded  
head and recognizable 10 fingers and ten toes that it is now fully  
endowed with all rights of the actually born and has all the rights  
at least of the woman carrying it?  Your demarcation seems  
arbitrary.  It certainly doesn't seem objective enough to call those  
who don't see it as you do sociopaths or insane.

Deciding some point in pregnancy that the pregnancy should only be  
terminated for more extreme reason makes sense to me on multiple  
levels.   Part of what I said about a foetus not being a child until  
the parents say so is also a recognition that after the point of  
thinking of the foetus as child accidental loss or abortion becomes  
much more painful emotionally and psychologically.    Contrasted with  
the difficult to define purported rights of the unborn are the  
obviously present rights of the woman carrying it to self- 
determination.   Many are the hormonal and psychological pressures to  
carry to term.  But pregnancy is no cakewalk physically or  
psychologically.  Saying a woman must carry to term just because she  
is pregnant is an abrogation of her rights and involuntary servitude.  
It is a placing of the purported right of the unborn above the rights  
of the woman.  This is obviously problematic.  In practice a balance  
will be struck.  In my personal view I would tend to place the line  
before which abortion is an at will decision roughly at the end of  
the first trimester.   Abortion after some point in pregnancy should  
in my opinion only be for very substantial reasons.

>
>>
>> But I haven't met anyone in real life that actually does. At 56 days
>> there is a lot of tissue there and something that looks quite a lot
>> more like a child then like just a clump of cells.
>>
>
> I'd like to hear Samantha's view on this. 56 days isn't even two  
> months
> yet, well within the first trimester that most women tend to  
> believe is
> their rightful period to execute an abortion without guilt or remorse.

There is almost always a lot of psychologically difficult stuff  
around deciding to abort after the hormones are flowing especially.    
It is not an easy decision and you do women a disservice by painting  
them as uncaring if they abort.   But it is the woman's decision to  
make.

How do you feel about the morning after pill, Mike?   About a week  
after pill?  A month?   Where do you draw your line?   And where do  
you get off calling those who disagree insane or sociopaths?


- samantha
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From hexbodhi at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  5 21:12:08 2005
From: hexbodhi at yahoo.com (Keith Mussenden)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:12:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Organic Robotoids
In-Reply-To: <41C46A21-AD7D-415A-83B2-2BB5C9E2A00A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050605211208.91272.qmail@web30814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Is any of this familiar to anyone?

 

Combinatoric Mahlstadt-time analysis and 
projective cerebral modelling.

Or Mahlstadt's "Toward a Faster Algorithm for Analog 
cerebral analysis," in All-Union Review of Cybernetics and Cognitive 
Studies, Spring 1974 

Mahlstadt's book (only available in 
Russian) "Cybernetics and Cerebral Mapping: an isomorphic approach". 

 

 

If you don't want to talk about this in public just email me at hexbodhi at yahoo.com


		
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
 Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
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From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 22:00:18 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:00:18 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <42A30767.5080806@neopax.com>
References: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<20050605033920.80681.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ee50357e05060503231d1c37a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A2D43D.5050708@neopax.com>
	<9e6fc1014d7c2982071ef2fcff0f8497@antipope.org>
	<42A30767.5080806@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce0506051500184afc30@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/5/05, Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
> Charlie Stross wrote:
> > 1. A spaceship needs wings and a retractable undercarriage like an
> > automobile needs oars and sails.
> >
> I'd dispute that.
> Almost all designs for a fully reusable spacecraft have wings.

And that's a good reason for why it's premature to be vouching for
fully reusable orbital spacecraft just yet. They might be economically
justifiable (and we'll see them being developed by private industry)
once flight rates get high enough, but in the meantime a low-cost
semi-reusable like the upcoming SpaceX Falcon rockets seems a far
better option.

In the present day the per-unit construction cost of a spacecraft is
definitely -not- the main driver of launch costs.

-- Neil


From dgc at cox.net  Mon Jun  6 01:44:54 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:44:54 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: <20050605161907.33320.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050605161907.33320.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42A3AA96.7020407@cox.net>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>For this exersize, we must consider the paper (or other substrate)
>>and 
>>the rather exotic inks
>>as raw materials. At the system level, a small production plant for
>>the 
>>paper and a small production
>>plant for each of the inks is likely to be a whole lot easier to
>>build 
>>than even the smallest conceivable
>>infrastructure based on silicon wafers.
>>    
>>
>
>Or possibly thin sheets of rock instead of paper, depending on the
>intended environment; the printer would be modified accordingly.
>
>  
>
I changed my mind. Rather than using a technology based on X-Y plotters that
create plots for humans, let's look at technology that is specifically
designed for optimal self-replication. We want to use simple substrate 
materials
and a simple design. My guess is that we can design a system that can 
use crude
electromechanical actuators to achieve 10 micrometer resolution on a simple
plastic substrate. This is 100 times coarser than the current state of 
the art in silicon
lithography (90nm) and 1000 times coarser than the state of the art in STMs.
An STM uses exotic piezoeletrical materials. My proposed technology uses
macro-scale servomotors.

If we have a 10-micrometer resolution, a 32x32cm page has one billion 
pixels.
For ROM, we get 8pages/GB. I assert that we can describe a 
self-replicator in about
1GB, given a substrate consisting of iron bar stock, celluloid sheets, 
copper wire, and
At most seventeen other inputs of equivalent complexity.

This self-replicator is a general-purpose machine. The instructions for a
number of instances of this general-purpose machine to produce the 20 
substrates
(e.g. copper wire) from a simpler substrate (e.g. copper ore) should 
take less than
1 GB. So the total ROM occupies 21x8=180 pages.

The actual  circuitry for the replicator occupies perhaps 8 pages. We 
are still in the
range of 1Kg for the information needed for a self-replicator with a 
simple substrate.

An instance of the self-replicator will be perhaps 100Kg. If this single 
instance cannot
successfully produce all 20 substrates, and then reproduce itself, it 
will die.
 If we want to get brave, we can add a bootstrap to the replicator . If 
the replicator succeeds
in implementing the fundamental 20 substrates, the bootstrap permits the 
replicator
to build a more sophisticated decoder. This decoder can read information 
that is encoded
at 10nm resolution. The replicator package has additional information 
encoded at this
resolution, which is a million times denser that the basic replicator,  
This info describes
how to implement more sophisticated substrate technologies. This concept 
is recursive,
so the weight of a self-replicator independent of its sophistication.




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun  6 02:22:22 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
> I changed my mind. Rather than using a technology based on X-Y
> plotters that
> create plots for humans, let's look at technology that is
> specifically
> designed for optimal self-replication. We want to use simple
> substrate 
> materials
> and a simple design. My guess is

The problem is, using already-existing stuff means you don't have to
make (potentially wildly inaccurate and proof-defeating) guesses.

So, I'd suggest sticking to things that do exist.  Designing self-rep
by some - any - means is hard enough, without restricting yourself to
novel means.


From bchjg at nus.edu.sg  Mon Jun  6 02:55:47 2005
From: bchjg at nus.edu.sg (Jan Gruber)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:55:47 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
Message-ID: <05C5081466660B4A94F371F5D48B59E777D563@MBOX02.stf.nus.edu.sg>

I love the idea of using printers - especially because one could at least do a simple "proof of principle" experiment - maybe not for the self replication part but at least for the "printed" circuit .... Even a simple adder / subtractor circuit printed using a modified inkjet printer would be interesting.

 

But then it looks like that has already been done:  

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6618

 

Any idea how complex/big the Epson setup is ? 

 

Jan Gruber 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org on behalf of Adrian Tymes 
	Sent: Mon 06/06/2005 10:22 
	To: ExI chat list 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
	
	

	--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
	> I changed my mind. Rather than using a technology based on X-Y
	> plotters that
	> create plots for humans, let's look at technology that is
	> specifically
	> designed for optimal self-replication. We want to use simple
	> substrate
	> materials
	> and a simple design. My guess is
	
	The problem is, using already-existing stuff means you don't have to
	make (potentially wildly inaccurate and proof-defeating) guesses.
	
	So, I'd suggest sticking to things that do exist.  Designing self-rep
	by some - any - means is hard enough, without restricting yourself to
	novel means.
	_______________________________________________
	extropy-chat mailing list
	extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
	http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
	

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From dgc at cox.net  Mon Jun  6 02:58:36 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:58:36 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] self replicating machine ....
In-Reply-To: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>I changed my mind. Rather than using a technology based on X-Y
>>plotters that
>>create plots for humans, let's look at technology that is
>>specifically
>>designed for optimal self-replication. We want to use simple
>>substrate 
>>materials
>>and a simple design. My guess is
>>    
>>
>
>The problem is, using already-existing stuff means you don't have to
>make (potentially wildly inaccurate and proof-defeating) guesses.
>
>So, I'd suggest sticking to things that do exist.  Designing self-rep
>by some - any - means is hard enough, without restricting yourself to
>novel means.
>_______________________________________________
>  
>
Adrian, I have spent some considerable time looking at SPM designs. 
These designs can
achieve approximately 10nm resolution using  piezo-electric elements. I 
picked
10 micrometer resolution as an extremely conservative goal. This is not 
some aggressive
new technology. The only reason that this technology is not in use today 
is that
it is obsolete: given the existence of commercially-available 
piezo-electric elements,
there is no reason to use electromagnetic servos to achieve this accuracy.

I choose to use electromachanical servos because they have a much simpler
substrate. the substrate for a servo is essentially the same as the 
substrate for an electric
motor;. By contrast, the substrate for a piezo involves complex 
extraction and synthesis
systems.


From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Mon Jun  6 03:16:10 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:16:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
Message-ID: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin>


 I'm getting ready to leave on my second commercial flight in my life and I am dealing with that annoying fear of flying. For the past two days I have not been able to concentrate on much else. It's always in the back of my head.
Yet I know very well the statistics regarding airline safety. I am quite aware that I am probably more likely to have a plane land on my head than die in a crash since I have flown so rarely. 
A quick look at some stats show that in the two planes I will be in, Boeing 757 and 767, there have been a combined total of 14 incidents that involved fatalities. Of those, four were on 9/11. Three more were the result of some other types of hijackings in other countries. One was a charter. One was a suicide (EgyptAir). One other was simply an elderly man who stepped out the catering door and fell to the ground. This leaves just four that involved regular mechanical or pilot error. That is out of over 24 million flights. http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

Meanwhile, I am a student pilot and it does not bother me to fly on my own. 

Of course, this is because of my irrational fear of not being in control. I know darn well that I am at much greater risk flying myself (48 times more likely to die in general aviation). I don't think about dying every time I get into the car. Nor do I trouble myself when I walk down steps or ride a bicycle. There are probably more people who die on the escalator at  the airports than in the actual planes! (That could be an interesting study)

But the fear persists. 

While I was in the shower I realized that the fear of course comes from a PERCEIVED loss of control. I realized that we as humans constantly fool ourselves into believing that we are in some sort of control when in fact we are not. 
This is evident in the way that we handle our everyday lives. 

It led me to think about religion and how devoutly religious people give up control of their lives to God. I began to realize that this deep seated need to feel in control of our lives must go back really far. In fact, it could very well be the driving force behind religion, not fear of death, but fear of loss of control. 

So just how far back does this go? Is it a uniquely human trait or does it go back further? Did H. neanderthalensis, H. erectus or H. habilis have similar problems? 

Is this the primary motivator behind power hunger and tyranny? Do people with a greater fear of loss of control exhibit a greater need to conquer?

And what can be done about this in the future? Is this the basic fear that many have to transhumanism? Are people afraid because they perceice a possible loss of control over their lives? Are we fooling ourselves into believing that we can control our creations through the same method that we fool ourselves into believing it is safe to climb steps? 

OK. I guess I am done with my rant. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. I know. But since I can't shake the fear, I might as well analyze it. :-)
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From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun  6 03:05:32 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:05:32 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
References: <20050605162515.91674.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <04e501c56a44$9a661970$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>> If you look at the above link and the ones around it you'll see
>> that I went quite a distance with you (in terms of time spent
>> and lines of your text I had to read to check out what you
>> had to say, and I was happy to do that, but I didn't get much
>> by way of concrete feedback when I asked for it, and in terms
>> of you developing your ideas I don't know if much came of it
>> for you).
>
> Ah, well, I wasn't aware you were looking for feedback. I have
> been under a bit of stress lately and haven't been paying too serious
> attention to things here other than the semi-daily browse through the
> posts. I appreciate you've gone a distance with me, and any lack of
> feedback may indicate that I either agreed with you or did not disagree
> strenuously enough to want to add to the debate.

You are in the US. I am in Australia. We are international. If I know that
I can rely on you to act like an adult I can bring you up to speed on stuff
you don't know faster than you can learn it first hand yourself AND vice
versa.

The debates over stem cell research and abortion and a host of other
things that I know you are interested in as well as other people on
this list are not debates that are specific to this list they are the issues
that define the times in which we live and that give us the opportunity
to participate in them.

I know from personal experience that I cannot take on all the issues
of the times on my own, the supply lines break down, because there
are not enough smart people or good faith to hold them open. The
most powerful politician in the world is the United States President
and he cannot take on all the issues in the world on his own. He
doesn't have enough power to do that even if he had the competence
to use the power he does have sensibly.

If we want the future to be better than the present (both personally
and for people generally) then we have to work with what we have.

I know you to some extent and trust you to some extent and am
willing to empower you to some extent (ie. make you more effective)
because to do so is a good investment on my part in building a better
future.

But I am not going to give you feedback or encourage you to do
the sort of things you want to do anyway, indefinately, if you don't
look like you are going to do them sensibly.

And I am going to want some payback from time to time, in that
if I ask you to do something simple like check out a link and tell me
if you find it persuasive or not, (or to stop aggravating Samantha
for the shear sport of it - Samantha is a person that I might disagree
with quite often just as you do, but she will be working to improve
the world you and I want far more effectively if she doesn't have
to  wrestle with your strawmen ever five minutes) and you don't do
it I will remember that you didn't do it and I will integrate that fact
into my future investment planning. I don't want to help empower
people who when empowered are only going to be bigger pests.

Developing arguments and tools for persuasion on an open list can
be risky in that political opponents get to see the next thing coming
and to prepare their reaction to it. On the other hand not doing it
risks not empowering as many allies as you might want as quickly
as you might want so its a balancing game.

>> This meant that I didn't know if I had wasted my time trying to
>> talk to you or not. If I can never effect you enough for you
>> to treat me as more than a type then why should I continue
>> to try and treat you as more than a type?  You and I are mortals.
>> We want to think our time spent and invested in others is not
>> wasted, or at least I do. Aren't you the same?
>
> Generally so, but I've been trying to not be so emotionally invested in
> this list, because it has disappointed me so frequently in the past. If
> that is seen as detachement or disregard, I apologize.

No apology necessary. The list isn't a friend. The list is a forum. If
people look to the list to be a friend they will be disappointed. If
they look to other *posters* to be friends then they may indeed make
international friendships and international business associates and...
well you get the idea..

So why am I writing this on the list rather than just to you? Because
I have enough of an understanding of psychology and politics to know
that others will read it and others will get something from it too.

I am not an extropian, but I am someone who likes some of the people
who post to the extropian list (and in fact dislikes almost none of them).

The extropy brand may flourish or flounder but the extropy brand is
not the same as the brand each of us wear as our names. I can't stand
behind the whole extropy philosophy because the whole extropy
philosophy whatever that is may develop more slowly than my own
personal philosophy and I would then not want the political baggage
of the more slowly moving one.

The forum of political operation is the world it is not this list. This list
is a vector. This list is a place I come to hear what people I have come
to respect think about stuff. Should this list fail then the people who post
or posted here will still be the people that posted here and the failure
of the list or of extropy as a brand would not be the same in my mind
as the failure (or success) of the people who post here.

Brett Paatsch 




From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun  6 04:13:09 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:13:09 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Charlie Stross wrote:

> Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal
> world involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn?t occur,
>
> I can?t agree with that.

> > Two, ?figuring out how to make conception a process under
> > voluntary control? was achieved ages ago. Don?t have sex - unless
> > your willing get pregnant
>
> Tell that to a rape victim.

You cut the bit where I said with some exceptions. Rape was one
I had in mind. Mythical deities impregnating virgins to create sons
for sacrifice is possibly another.

> I repeat: conception is *not* under voluntary control. Celibacy is a 
> condition which may be terminated involuntarily. (Moreover, it?s not an 
> easily maintained condition for the majority of people.)

Sure. Technologically though, we'd have very little problem making
pregnancy optional even today if the politics wasn't a factor.

> The subtext I see behind all this rhetoric about celibacy and the evils 
> of abortion is a total phobia of icky females enjoying sex, with a 
> side-order of the kind of deep unease about the flesh that --  
>  ironically -- the more technophobic commentators tend to attribute to 
> extropians.
>
>> To get gene-line engineering working as a solution as you suggest
>> it doesn?t just have to be technologically practical it has to be 
>> politically practical. Guess what the catholics and others who prefer
>> their solution to the one you propose would vote against your solution
>> in large numbers even if you could get a political party to put it on 
>> theagenda.
>
> Heh. ?Politically practical.? We now have the sub-text out in the open.

I wasn't trying to hide any sub-texts. I think politically almost 
instinctively
and am often surprised that others do not. Its possible to consider morality
and ethics and technology and a bunch of stuff without looking at politics
I suppose but I tend to see things in terms of politics as well in that it 
is
in the political forums that ethics gets to be policy and bad policy
following from sloppy ethics (amongst other things) causes people to die.

> I should like to note that, along with the US state department, the  other 
> forces trying to scupper the UN WHO proposal that access to  contraception 
> and abortion should be basic rights available to women  world-wide were 
> the most barking batshit reactionary islamic  fundamentalists on the 
> planet -- notably the governments of Saudi  Arabia and Iran. These are the 
> same chittering dark-ages ass-hats who  think that vaccinating girls 
> against HPV is an incitement to  promiscuity, because the mere concept 
> that they could be infected by  their husbands doesn?t occur to them.
>
> The sub-text of the entire ?human life begins at 10^6 cells/^10^3/1  cell? 
> debate is that a *potential* life is worth as much, if not more,  than the 
> *actual* life of the woman who is expected by the  anti-abortion lobby to 
> go through a somewhat hazardous medical  condition (which, in the wild, 
> has a 5-10% fatality rate) and then --  this is implicit in the whole 
> mess -- spend the next twenty years of  life surrendering their potential 
> for self-actualization to that other  formerly potential person.

That sentence is too hard for me to parse. I think you are strawmanning
the views of those who I disagree with as well but I can't tell.

As for the 5-10% fatality rate thats a higher statistic than the ones I
have, do you have a source for it?

>........................................Who then gets to do the whole same 
>thing (if  they?re female) or benefit from all that hard work (if they?re 
>not).
>
> As a non-American who lives in a country where at the last poll just 
> short of 90% of the population approved of abortion being available on 
> demand, let me say that I think this discussion would be ludicrous if  it 
> wasn?t evil.

So what are you a Canadian living in the US or what? I'm curious because
I know that you are an observer of developments in ideas futures and I
am wondering where in the world you are observing them from. I'm
watching from Australia.

>................ And it *is* evil when we get to the real loonies who  are 
>trying to convince the god-botherers that condoms don?t work, that 
>hormonal contraceptives are abortifacients, and that the only  acceptable 
>place for a woman is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

Its ironic, but when you posted to the list recently you said that you
were irked I think that there was so much ranting going on. But now
I am struggling to understand what points you are trying to make
because you seem to have decided to rant along with us.

When you use words like evil I don't know if you are parodying the
US President or if you actually really think in such terms yourself.

> There are, incidentally, reasons why this highly damaging meme achieves 
> traction in modern religious communities. (Here?s a fairly acute blog 
> entry which puts it fairly concisely:
> http://hot_needle_of_inquiry.blogspot.com/2005/04/stable-strategy-set- 
> defectors.html)
>
> > Three, when humanity cuts in, as you put it, is not a trivial question.
> > Its an important one. And discussions about it that develop the
> > thinking of people involved in them are discussions worth having.
> > When Galileo looked through a telescope and saw Jupiter and its
> > moons he was seeing what was there. If the Pope had been willing
> > to look through the telescope the Pope too would have seen what
> > was there. Perhaps the Pope would have questioned whether he
> > could trust this new fangled piece of technology or not but at least
> > his taking a look would have progressed his thinking a long a bit.
> > Perhaps he could have had another telescope built. Perhaps his
> > eminence could have gotten the telescope deconstructed and
> > reassembled.
>
> Urban legends don?t aid the debate. Galileo was to a very large extent 
> *protected* by the then Pope, who was a friend of his; what got him  into 
> trouble was court politics, aggravated by his inability to keep  his mouth 
> shut at the right time. You will note that Galileo was *not*  burned at 
> the stake despite this being a fairly common outcome for  heretics at the 
> time ... and that the reason for the draconian response  to heresy was 
> that it had political implications: religious doctrine  was then the 
> accepted way of understanding how the world works, and  questioning its 
> veracity raised implications for the way state policy  was formed. That?s 
> *never* a safe or easy thing to do; we can see it  today in the way the 
> Bush administration treats science funding in  areas that don?t appear to 
> support their preconceptions.

A lot of urban legends likely have built up around the Galileo story,
and I am interested in what the real story was, but for present purposes,
not all that much. For present purposes the only point I really wanted
to make is that individuals including individuals with religious or faith
based world views that have consciences of their own and are willing
to exercise them can choose to look through the available equipment
be it a telescope or a microscope of whatever if they so choose. For
them to decline to look, is in my book, an indication that may well
be operating in bad faith, even in the terms that others of their faith
would consider it.

Brett Paatsch 




From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  6 05:00:25 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:00:25 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050605033028.34891.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>

 
> > > On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Buzz off troll...
> 
> ... If anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is Samantha.
> 
> Mike Lorrey...


Oy, a man cannot go for a relaxing weekend of ropin and ridin
without coming home to find his favorite e-list members
abusing each other.

Abortion is a topic so difficult society has been unable
to resolve it.  We the few, the proud, are unlikely to solve it.


> ...IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump of 
> cells' is insane...

Hey, I'm a clump of cells now.  Possibly an insane clump of
cells.

> ...They came for the communists and I did not speak out, because
I am not a communist.

I spoke out.  I said "Hey!  Keep your eyes open, don't
miss any.  Those commies are tricky bastids."  {8-]

Some time ago Lee Daniel Crocker suggested some rules for
list etiquette.  I propose a kinder and gentler approach
than Lee's when dealing with abortion: do let us turn down
the flames.

Where is Lee?  Has anyone heard from him recently?

spike






From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  6 05:21:47 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:21:47 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <200506060521.j565LqR14205@tick.javien.com>



________________________________________
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:16 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying

?
> I'm getting ready to leave on my second commercial flight in my life and I
am dealing with that annoying fear of flying. For the past?two days I have
not been able to concentrate on much else. It's always in the back of my
head.  Yet I know very well the statistics regarding airline safety...OK. I
guess I am done with my rant. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. I know. But
since I can't shake the fear, I might as well analyze it. :-)


Kevin my father-in-law has a terrible fear of flying, 
specifically that the wings would come off in turbulence.  I 
launched into a big pontification on how they are stress 
tested, inspected, planes never have structural failure
in flight, bla bla and yakkity yak.  About a week later
the tail fell off that French plane causing it to punch
a deep hole into the earth.  He has not flown since.

spike


?



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 05:35:36 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <000f01c5696a$88df42b0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050606053536.43388.qmail@web60517.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> Dubbed "Herakles," the system would use an ion beam
> produced from xenon gas 
> to propel the craft to speeds of 200,000 mph, 10
> times faster than the top 
> speed of the space shuttle. :
> 
>
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002299705_ion04.html
> 

Very cool. Between Herakles and NASA's NEO Program, I
will sleep better at night.

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/

This is a very cool website. Hey Olga, check it out.
Your friend 2004MN4 is on the list and it will get 8
chances to hit us. So what I want to know is that is
the listed probabilty cumalative over the 8 potential
impacts or is that the probabilty per orbital pass?

Wow. Every time developments like this come around, I
think maybe just maybe, H. sapiens might have a chance
after all.
 




The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  6 05:56:54 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:56:54 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] new libertarian
In-Reply-To: <200506060521.j565LqR14205@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200506060556.j565urR22000@tick.javien.com>


Hey check this.  I haven't studied all their views, but
the articles I have read are hitting all the right buttons
with me:

http://www.qando.net/articles/tnlv1i3.pdf

spike







From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 06:23:08 2005
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:53:08 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mission to build a simulated brain begins
Message-ID: <710b78fc0506052323869c939@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, the singularity. I just grabbed this from >HTech, opinions?
-----

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7470&feedId=online-news_atom03

Mission to build a simulated brain begins

    * 00:01 06 June 2005
    * NewScientist.com news service
    * Duncan Graham-Rowe

An effort to create the first computer simulation of the entire human
brain, right down to the molecular level, was launched on Monday.

The "Blue Brain" project, a collaboration between IBM and a Swiss
university team, will involve building a custom-made supercomputer based
on IBM's Blue Gene design.

The hope is that the virtual brain will help shed light on some aspects
of human cognition, such as perception, memory and perhaps even
consciousness.

It will be the first time humans will be able to observe the electrical
code our brains use to represent the world, and to do so in real time,
say Henry Markram, director of Brain and Mind Institute at the Ecole
Polytecnique F?d?rale de Lausanne (EPFL), Switzerland.

It may also help in understanding how certain malfunctions of the
brain's "microcircuits" could cause psychiatric disorders such as
autism, schizophrenia and depression, he says.

Until now this sort of undertaking would not be possible because the
processing power and the scientific knowledge of how the brain is wired
simply was not there, says Charles Peck, IBM's lead researcher on the
project.

"But there has been a convergence of the biological data and the
computational resources," he says. But efforts to map the brain's
circuits and the development of the Blue Gene supercomputer, which has a
peak processing power of at least 22.8 teraflops, now make this possible.
Mapping the brain

For over a decade Markram and his colleagues have been building a
database of the neural architecture of the neocortex, the largest and
most complex part of mammalian brains.

Using pioneering techniques, they have studied precisely how individual
neurons behave electrically and built up a set of rules for how
different types of neurons connect to one another.

Very thin slices of mouse brain were kept alive under a microscope and
probed electrically before being stained to reveal the synaptic, or
nerve, connections. "We have the largest database in the world of single
neurons that have been recorded and stained," says Markram.
Neocortical columns

Using this database the initial phase of Blue Brain will model the
electrical structure of neocortical columns - neural circuits that are
repeated throughout the brain.

"These are the network units of the brain," says Markram. Measuring just
0.5 millimetres by 2 mm, these units contain between 10 and 70,000
neurons, depending upon the species.

Once this is complete, the behaviour of columns can be mapped and
modelled before moving into the second phase of the project.

Two new models will be built, one a molecular model of the neurons
involved. The other will clone the behavioural model of columns
thousands of times to produce a complete neocortex, and eventually the
rest of the brain.

The end product, which will take at least a decade to achieve, can then
be stimulated and observed to see how different parts of the brain
behave. For example, visual information can be inputted to the visual
cortex, while Blue Brain's response is observed.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com   * blogs * music * software *


From reason at longevitymeme.org  Mon Jun  6 06:36:56 2005
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:36:56 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] new libertarian
In-Reply-To: <200506060556.j565urR22000@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNCEAEGAAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of spike

>
> Hey check this.  I haven't studied all their views, but
> the articles I have read are hitting all the right buttons
> with me:
>
> http://www.qando.net/articles/tnlv1i3.pdf

It aptly illustrates that the modern usage of the prefix "neo" in matters
political appears to mean some variety of "not," "not at all," or "not even
slightly."

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme



From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 06:36:45 2005
From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] =?iso-8859-1?q?GREAT_NEWS_ABOUT_TRANSVISION_2005?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?=3A_Gaceta_Cient=EDfica_?=
Message-ID: <20050606063645.86609.qmail@web32812.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear friends,
 
     TransVision is really getting ready to be the best, the largest and now the most accredited transhumanist meeting in history!
 
     The President of the National Academy of Sciences will be giving the welcoming speech, and you can see that they even link to our TV05 banner, on the bottom left of the web page of the Narional Academy of Sciences:
 
http://www.acfiman.org.ve/
 
     We are now working also to have the Minister of Science and Technology as well:-)
 
     Looking forward to hosting you all in the best transhumanist show ever...
 
     TransVisionarily yours,




La vie est belle!

Yos? (www.cordeiro.org)

Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse


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From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 06:49:47 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:49:47 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making with prediction
	markets
Message-ID: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com>

I came across a fairly good opinion piece in the Jakarta Post on
prediction markets:

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaileditorial.asp?fileid=20050606.E03&irec=2

It discusses the potential utility of using such markets to make
better policy decisions, a topic I don't see covered too often. The
piece also mentions Robin Hanson's "Futarchy" proposal a little:

"In his paper 'Shall We Vote on Values, But Bet on Beliefs,' Hanson
proposed a new form of government, which he calls a 'Futarchy'. In
this government, elected representatives would formally define and
manage after-the-fact measurements of national welfare, while market
speculators would say which policies they expected to raise national
welfare."

Which makes me wonder... after the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction to
the Policy Analysis Market, are there any actions we can take towards
helping make real-money prediction markets legal in the US?

-- Neil


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 06:56:29 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:56:29 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com>

I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight.   
I refused to play.  If you think I did wrong then I am probably done  
with this list.  I have about had it with being abused by Mike and  
having no one back me up.  It SUCKS.  I have had it with attempting  
to steer clear of the mess and take a minimal stand only to be tarred  
as equally belligerent.  This is UNJUST and I will not take it anymore.

- samantha

On Jun 5, 2005, at 10:00 PM, spike wrote:

>
>
>>>> On 6/4/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Buzz off troll...
>>>>>
>>
>> ... If anybody needs a good smack of reality, it is Samantha.
>>
>> Mike Lorrey...
>>
>
>
> Oy, a man cannot go for a relaxing weekend of ropin and ridin
> without coming home to find his favorite e-list members
> abusing each other.
>
> Abortion is a topic so difficult society has been unable
> to resolve it.  We the few, the proud, are unlikely to solve it.
>
>
>
>> ...IMHO anyone who thinks a 56 day old fetus is a 'clump of
>> cells' is insane...
>>
>
> Hey, I'm a clump of cells now.  Possibly an insane clump of
> cells.
>
>
>> ...They came for the communists and I did not speak out, because
>>
> I am not a communist.
>
> I spoke out.  I said "Hey!  Keep your eyes open, don't
> miss any.  Those commies are tricky bastids."  {8-]
>
> Some time ago Lee Daniel Crocker suggested some rules for
> list etiquette.  I propose a kinder and gentler approach
> than Lee's when dealing with abortion: do let us turn down
> the flames.
>
> Where is Lee?  Has anyone heard from him recently?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 07:10:20 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050606071020.99614.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Oy, a man cannot go for a relaxing weekend of ropin
> and ridin
> without coming home to find his favorite e-list
> members
> abusing each other.
> 
> Abortion is a topic so difficult society has been
> unable
> to resolve it.  We the few, the proud, are unlikely
> to solve it.

Amen Spike. I have been purposely abstaining from this
debate. I know the arguments from both sides inside
and out and I still cannot reach a decision as to
whether all abortions should be legal or not. I guess
one of the downsides of "winner take all" politics is
that you aren't allowed to make such choices on a case
by case basis and instead are forced to make some
blanket edict. I cannot bring myself to do this so I
have come up with the perfect personal solution.

Since my Y chromosome makes me highly unlikely to ever
have to make a choice as to whether or not to get an
abortion, I don't feel a need to have an opinion on
this matter. It's the same reason I don't bother on
opining on whether tampons are superior to maxipads. I
say leave the woman business to the women.

I have, however, made some observations regarding this
issue.

1. I have never met a woman who has admitted to
getting an abortion that did not express some degree
of remorse about it or wasn't otherwise profoundly
affected by it.
2. I have never met a woman who admitted to having
more than one abortion.
3. People who are the most adamant against abortion
because of "fetal rights" are typically against
welfare and for capital punishment.
4. Biologically speaking an umbilical cord is the most
extreme form of welfare yet devised and some women DO
have children for the express purposes of getting more
free money from the state.
5. Violent sociopathic criminals tend to have troubled
childhoods wherein they are neglected, unwanted, and
abused. So I ask, "are we sparing them in the womb
only to put them on death row when they turn 18?"
6. Most people who so zealously champion the
preservation of unborn fetuses of this country don't
give a moments thought to the millions of children the
world over that are already born and starving to death
or dying of AIDS.
7. The guys who blow up abortion clinics probably
don't get laid often.
 
So much for my two cents. :)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun  6 07:50:58 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:50:58 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.)
References: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>
	<FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com>
Message-ID: <056101c56a6c$79e63770$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight.   
> I refused to play.  If you think I did wrong then I am probably done  
> with this list.  I have about had it with being abused by Mike and  
> having no one back me up.  It SUCKS. 

I backed you up.

>....................... I have had it with attempting  
> to steer clear of the mess and take a minimal stand only to be tarred  
> as equally belligerent.  This is UNJUST and I will not take it anymore.

This thread has gotten off topic. The "famous author" that "self destructs
in public" seems to have left it.  

Brett Paatsch



From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Jun  6 08:27:30 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:27:30 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <200506060521.j565LqR14205@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506060521.j565LqR14205@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506061021190.17488@zeus>

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, spike wrote:

>
>Kevin my father-in-law has a terrible fear of flying,
>specifically that the wings would come off in turbulence.  I
>launched into a big pontification on how they are stress
>tested, inspected, planes never have structural failure
>in flight, bla bla and yakkity yak.  About a week later
>the tail fell off that French plane causing it to punch
>a deep hole into the earth.  He has not flown since.

I look forward to turbolence every time I fly, to avoid boredom. I am
usually disappointed, since the flight is very smooth all too often :-)

The recent rise of low-cost, no-frills airlines here in Europe has
aggravated the problem, because now the ticket is anywhere between $5 and
$50 plus airport taxes, and for those prices they can't afford to give you
even a little snack. So there's nothing to do except look out of the
window (if it's not cloudy) and sleep.

Alfio


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Mon Jun  6 08:29:31 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 01:29:31 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
References: <20050606071020.99614.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c56a71$dd875610$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "The Avantguardian" <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
>... so have come up with the perfect personal solution.

> Since my Y chromosome makes me highly unlikely to ever
> have to make a choice as to whether or not to get an
> abortion, I don't feel a need to have an opinion on
> this matter. It's the same reason I don't bother on
> opining on whether tampons are superior to maxipads. I
> say leave the woman business to the women.

Same reason?  Why, you must be independently wealthy or something.

Because - assuming you are fertile - if you should find yourself the party 
to woman's pregnancy - she will then decide for you (whether you like it or 
not), and if a child ensues from her decision - it is *you* who will be 
responsible for forking over a good deal of money for the child's rearing 
and welfare.  This is, of course, also assuming she is one of those "old 
fashioned" types who believes in observing this particular privilege women 
have had in past year - and takes you to court if you object to her decision 
to make you pay.

> I have, however, made some observations regarding this
> issue.

> 1. I have never met a woman who has admitted to
> getting an abortion that did not express some degree
> of remorse about it or wasn't otherwise profoundly
> affected by it.

I - on the other hand - have met many women whose only regret was that they 
got pregnant (accidentally), and when they went ahead to get their abortion 
were *not* profoundly affected by it.  I never had an abortion, but I did 
have a miscarriage - and was not affected by it (seems to me that the reams 
written about these events practically *encourage* women to be profoundly 
affected).

> 2. I have never met a woman who admitted to having
> more than one abortion.

The Pill and IUD have helped women out as far as not getting pregnant as 
often as they did in the past.  But accidents have been known to happen - 
even with these advanced form of contraception (I can attest to this 
personally).

Before the advent of The Pill/IUD, women who got pregnant were often married 
(we are talking early 1960s and the decades before ...) - or they suddenly 
"got" married - this institution served as a safety net, from social and 
financial fronts, at a time when abortions were illegal.  When I was a child 
I knew of several women who got illegal abortions - they were usually women 
who were not dependent on men (single women or single mothers), and took 
care of their own business - i.e., took responsibility for their "oopsies." 
My own mother had several abortions (although I did not find out about these 
as a child - only later, remembering her trips to Tijuana a couple of 
times).  My mother was not "profoundly affected" by the abortions - but she 
would definitely have been "profoundly affected" had she lost her livelihood 
(i.e., her job) as a result of these pregnancies.

It is a blessing to have safe, legal abortions for women.

> 3. People who are the most adamant against abortion
> because of "fetal rights" are typically against
> welfare and for capital punishment.

You are speaking about the religious right faction.

> 4. Biologically speaking an umbilical cord is the most
> extreme form of welfare yet devised and some women DO
> have children for the express purposes of getting more
> free money from the state.

>From the state?  Do a majority of women depend on welfare to rear their 
children?  Do you know how difficult it is to get welfare? (a great deal of 
this goes to blind people and people who have various disabilities, by the 
way)  Do you know how financially compromised those women are who may need 
to resort to welfare to help rear their children?  You don't really believe 
in "welfare queens - do you?"  Please, get serious.  (Did your mother work 
for a living?)

> 5. Violent sociopathic criminals tend to have troubled
> childhoods wherein they are neglected, unwanted, and
> abused. So I ask, "are we sparing them in the womb
> only to put them on death row when they turn 18?"

What a sweeping generalization.  I wouldn't know where to begin with this.

> 6. Most people who so zealously champion the
> preservation of unborn fetuses of this country don't
> give a moments thought to the millions of children the
> world over that are already born and starving to death
> or dying of AIDS.

Yes, the religious right group tends to be exclusive and ethnocentric.

> 7. The guys who blow up abortion clinics probably
> don't get laid often.

And they probably have milk in their refrigerators ... so your point is ...?

> So much for my two cents. :)

That's a lot of sputtering for two cents!





From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 08:43:33 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 01:43:33 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot submission: Study links genetic diseases to
	intelligence
Message-ID: <e88b73ce050606014345fbffa0@mail.gmail.com>

(I'm planning on submitting the following story to slashdot soon, but
considering the extreme sensitivity of the topic and slashdotters'
propensity for going completely nutzoid, I'd appreciate suggestions on
possible rewordings/additions. Also, what are your thoughts on the
topic itself and its implications for genetic enhancement of
intelligence?)

The Economist, Sun-Sentinel, and FuturePundit report on a
controversial study by Gregory Cochran and others which proposes a
link between certain genetic conditions and above-average intelligence
in Ashkenazi Jews. The 40-page study, published in the Journal of
Biosocial Science, analyzes data on unusual patterns of genetic
disease in the ethnic group and relates it to various measures of
intelligence, such as winning 27% of America's Nobel science prizes
and having a highly disproportionate rate of IQs over 140. Although
the intelligence data has traditionally been attributed solely to
cultural factors, Cochran proposes that due to unusual selection
pressures between 800 and 1600AD certain genes developed which promote
intelligence as single copies, but lead to particular diseases when
somebody inherits two copies. Of particular note are mutations which
seem to be involved with neuron growth and DNA repair. According to
Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, "It would be hard to
overstate how politically incorrect this paper is... [though] it's
certainly a thorough and well-argued paper, not one that can easily be
dismissed outright."

Links from submission:
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-adiseases03jun03,0,3551969.story
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html
http://harpend.dsl.xmission.com.nyud.net:8090/Documents/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf


From amara at amara.com  Mon Jun  6 08:47:50 2005
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:47:50 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
 Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <p06210202bec9bbd0320e@[150.146.134.133]>

Samantha:
>I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight.
>I refused to play.  If you think I did wrong then I am probably done
>with this list.  I have about had it with being abused by Mike and
>having no one back me up.  It SUCKS.


I'm sorry, Samantha. I meant to call you last weekend and give
support over the phone. (Life is a bit too big for me at the moment
to do much over email). I killfiled Lorrey some days ago after after
I read his misogynist message. I wish there were more women on this
list. It's sorely lacking a balanced perspective.

Amara

(oops, just saw Olga's response. Thanks for another perspective Olga!
I can say more, too, but not right now.)
-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"Math is Hard."    --Barbie


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun  6 11:30:23 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:30:23 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making with
	predictionmarkets
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Neil Halelamien wrote:

> "In his paper 'Shall We Vote on Values, But Bet on Beliefs,' Hanson
> proposed a new form of government, which he calls a 'Futarchy'. In
> this government, elected representatives would formally define and
> manage after-the-fact measurements of national welfare, while market
> speculators would say which policies they expected to raise national
> welfare."
>
> Which makes me wonder... after the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction to
> the Policy Analysis Market, are there any actions we can take towards
> helping make real-money prediction markets legal in the US?

Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and then, point 
at
the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter, more capitalist countries.

Brett Paatsch 




From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 12:03:41 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:03:41 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making with
	predictionmarkets
In-Reply-To: <05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05060605032cce1c71@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> 
> Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and then, point
> at the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter, more capitalist countries.
> 

e.g.  Online poker.

Poker firm bets on ?5billion flotation
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4601793.stm>

According to Pokerpulse.com, the amount of money wagered in online
poker games in any given 24-hour period is more than $200 million US.
<http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Francis/2005/06/04/1071374-sun.html>

While the US DOJ is trying to ban it.
<http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=644002>
In the face of an explosion of electronic gambling across the US, the
Department of Justice has in the past few months been stepping up its
campaign against firms that offer it. The DoJ has written to several
warning that internet gaming is against the law under the 1960s-era
Wire Act and has issued subpoenas to companies associated with the
business.


So how long till the US changes its internet gambling laws?

BillK


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun  6 12:41:56 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:41:56 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making
	withpredictionmarkets
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com><05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<ee50357e05060605032cce1c71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05e601c56a95$1fa1b590$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

BillK wrote:

> On 6/6/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
>>
>> Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and then, 
>> point
>> at the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter, more capitalist 
>> countries.
>>
>
> e.g.  Online poker.

That's not an exact comparison. Online poker is not the same as a real
money predictions market.

> Poker firm bets on ?5billion flotation
> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4601793.stm>
>
> According to Pokerpulse.com, the amount of money wagered in online
> poker games in any given 24-hour period is more than $200 million US.
> <http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Francis/2005/06/04/1071374-sun.html>
>
> While the US DOJ is trying to ban it.
> <http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=644002>
> In the face of an explosion of electronic gambling across the US, the
> Department of Justice has in the past few months been stepping up its
> campaign against firms that offer it. The DoJ has written to several
> warning that internet gaming is against the law under the 1960s-era
> Wire Act and has issued subpoenas to companies associated with the
> business.
>
>
> So how long till the US changes its internet gambling laws?

Depends.

But this para from the bottom of your second link is interesting.

"Sorting out the contradictions between America's official legal
 position and the reality of the booming online industry is likely
 to move further up the agenda of Capitol Hill after a recent
 ruling at the World Trade Organisation which broadly upheld
a complaint from Antigua, one of the WTO's smallest members.
The island has built up a booming business in hosting online
gaming businesses and said the US was being unfair by allowing
online horseracing betting by US operators, while outlawing all
other others of internet gambling."

Brett Paatsch




From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  6 14:31:48 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:31:48 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] new libertarian
In-Reply-To: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNCEAEGAAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>
Message-ID: <200506061431.j56EVkR21183@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Reason
...
> >
> > http://www.qando.net/articles/tnlv1i3.pdf
> 
> It aptly illustrates that the modern usage of the prefix "neo" in matters
> political appears to mean some variety of "not," "not at all," or "not
> even slightly."
> 
> Reason
> Founder, Longevity Meme

Reason, do elaborate please.

spike



From charlie at stross.org.uk  Mon Jun  6 14:34:13 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:34:13 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>

On 6 Jun 2005, at 05:13, Brett Paatsch wrote:

>> The sub-text of the entire ?human life begins at 10^6 cells/^10^3/1  
>> cell? debate is that a *potential* life is worth as much, if not 
>> more,  than the *actual* life of the woman who is expected by the  
>> anti-abortion lobby to go through a somewhat hazardous medical  
>> condition (which, in the wild, has a 5-10% fatality rate) and then -- 
>>  this is implicit in the whole mess -- spend the next twenty years of 
>>  life surrendering their potential for self-actualization to that 
>> other  formerly potential person.
>
> That sentence is too hard for me to parse. I think you are strawmanning
> the views of those who I disagree with as well but I can't tell.

Um, I was taking you initially for one of the "every sperm is sacred 
(and you women had better look after them)" crowd. Not having run into 
you on the net before.

> As for the 5-10% fatality rate thats a higher statistic than the ones I
> have, do you have a source for it?

Well, you don't have to look far on the net -- go back to Semmelweis in 
1847 and he found a 12.24% mortality rate among 294 deliveries in a 
Viennese hospital, prior to his introduction of antisepsis there. Okay, 
so admittedly we've currently got antibiotics and medical intervention 
that reduces the infant mortality rate to roughly 10-20 per 1000 and 
maternal mortality isn't a noted issue -- at present. But I'm not going 
to bet on antibiotic resistance being held at bay much longer, given 
the way we've criminally failed to develop new antibiotics, retain 
traditional antiseptic nursing techniques, and over-used those 
antibiotics we have.


>> ........................................Who then gets to do the whole 
>> same thing (if  they?re female) or benefit from all that hard work 
>> (if they?re not).
>>
>> As a non-American who lives in a country where at the last poll just 
>> short of 90% of the population approved of abortion being available 
>> on demand, let me say that I think this discussion would be ludicrous 
>> if  it wasn?t evil.
>
> So what are you a Canadian living in the US or what?

British, living in the UK. (In the People's Republic of Scotland, to be 
precise.)

...
> Its ironic, but when you posted to the list recently you said that you
> were irked I think that there was so much ranting going on. But now
> I am struggling to understand what points you are trying to make
> because you seem to have decided to rant along with us.
>
> When you use words like evil I don't know if you are parodying the
> US President or if you actually really think in such terms yourself.

See "British", above, and consider the possibility that a Manichean 
view of the world ain't part of my outlook. Britain and the US are two 
nations divided by a linguistic sar-chasm.

(Although if I was going to try and bolt together a post-religious 
rationalist ethical framework based on game theory with a side-order of 
utilitarianism, I think I'd probably retain the word "evil" to describe 
ideologies or beliefs that amount to repeatedly smacking yourself in 
the face with a two-by-four. And the Christian fundamentalists are a 
good fit for that pattern of behaviour.)



-- Charlie



From charlie at stross.org.uk  Mon Jun  6 14:34:39 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:34:39 +0100
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <132752b669a7c622dc0528bbd9a509c4@antipope.org>
References: <20050606071020.99614.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<000b01c56a71$dd875610$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<132752b669a7c622dc0528bbd9a509c4@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <3db4fe4447aecddfe7e33c08f576c991@stross.org.uk>


On 6 Jun 2005, at 09:29, Olga Bourlin wrote:
>
> It is a blessing to have safe, legal abortions for women.

A point the more public-facing anti-abortion groups never seem to get 
round to talking about is that banning abortion won't stop abortions 
from happening; it'll just make them unsafe criminal affairs, carried 
out furtively, with an attached significant death toll.

(The more extreme anti-abortion groups, notably the Christian 
reconstructionists, want to bring in the death penalty for abortionists 
*and* the women who use their services *and* for adulterers *and* for 
homosexuals ... but they don't make a big point of bringing this up in 
front of the general public. Can't imagine why.)


-- Charlie



From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  6 14:41:50 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:41:50 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] flamey abortion discussion,
	was: Famous author self destructs in public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com>
Message-ID: <200506061441.j56EfnR22559@tick.javien.com>


> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins
...
> 
> I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight...
> 
> - samantha


Ja it looked to me like Mike was the aggressor.

Mike, make it right man.  

Perhaps we should prefix abortion discussions in the subject
line, or at least change it from famous author.  I missed something.
Who was the famous author?  What did she do to self destruct
in public?  I missed a few days discussion last week.

spike



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Mon Jun  6 14:53:23 2005
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:53:23 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mission to build a simulated brain begins
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0506052323869c939@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0506052323869c939@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42A46363.2050501@mail.tele.dk>

Emlyn wrote:

>Ah, the singularity. I just grabbed this from >HTech, opinions?
>-----
>
>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7470&feedId=online-news_atom03
>
>Mission to build a simulated brain begins
>

Very interresting.

The best result would be if it turned out that neurons in them self are 
unimportant, and that the "real action" takes place in higher structures.

It is a big difference in AI if a brain must be simulated from 
individual neurons, or if groups of neurons can be considdered as "black 
boxes" of functionality.

-- 

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:09:55 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:09:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <6F163F4A-6875-4114-A98B-38B53DA18DF1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050606150956.20626.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> I am sorry but after your tirades I refuse to discuss this topic with
> you.  I did not want to discuss this topic in the first place and  
> certainly not with you.

Tirades? This is clearly slanderous. I don't recall losing my temper
once over this. That you are incapable of reading anything free of your
own emotional blinders has been amply demonstrated.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:26:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <41C46A21-AD7D-415A-83B2-2BB5C9E2A00A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050606152658.72965.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Judgmental and prejudicial of discussion as ever I see.   Why do you 
> belief that just because the 56 day old fetus has a bit more rounded 
> head and recognizable 10 fingers and ten toes that it is now fully  
> endowed with all rights of the actually born and has all the rights  
> at least of the woman carrying it?  Your demarcation seems  
> arbitrary.  It certainly doesn't seem objective enough to call those 
> who don't see it as you do sociopaths or insane.

It is far less arbitrary than your eco-buddies selecting only cute and
fuzzy animals to demonstrate over....

> 
> Deciding some point in pregnancy that the pregnancy should only be  
> terminated for more extreme reason makes sense to me on multiple  
> levels.   Part of what I said about a foetus not being a child until 
> the parents say so is also a recognition that after the point of  
> thinking of the foetus as child accidental loss or abortion becomes  
> much more painful emotionally and psychologically. Contrasted with
> the difficult to define purported rights of the unborn are the  
> obviously present rights of the woman carrying it to self- 
> determination.   Many are the hormonal and psychological pressures to
> carry to term.  But pregnancy is no cakewalk physically or  
> psychologically.  Saying a woman must carry to term just because she 
> is pregnant is an abrogation of her rights and involuntary servitude.
> It is a placing of the purported right of the unborn above the rights
> of the woman.  This is obviously problematic.  In practice a balance 
> will be struck.  In my personal view I would tend to place the line  
> before which abortion is an at will decision roughly at the end of  
> the first trimester.   Abortion after some point in pregnancy should 
> in my opinion only be for very substantial reasons.

Ah, the old 'involuntary servitude' claim rears its head! It is odd,
Samantha, that you so clearly dismiss such a claim when it is the male
making it, particularly when the state starts garnishing his wages for
child support for a child he never wanted.... When did he ever have the
right to an abortion? Feminists like yourself claim he had his choice
in the few minutes of copulation, while claiming the mother has 9
months of choice. Sorry, that isn't "equal protection under the law" or
"equal rights".

Sorry, Samantha, it doesn't wash. The woman chose to take the risk to
temporarily and voluntarily indenture herself to the kid at the moment
she chose to procreate, just as her sexual partner did, just as anyone
is bound, indentured, when they sign any sort of contract with another
party, be it an employment contract, a mortgage, or a marriage, or
social security: you choose to contract by act (signature or screw,
doesn't matter), you get bound, and you fulfill the terms of the
contract. No woman can claim she didn't realize the demands of a 9
month pregancy contract. Incognizance or incompetence is really the
only escape from such a contract: in this regard, a minor child is
incognizant and/or incompetent to enter into contract.

If you are going to demand that one party have an escape clause, all
parties must have the same escape clause.

> >
> >
> > I'd like to hear Samantha's view on this. 56 days isn't even two  
> > months yet, well within the first trimester that most women tend
> > to believe is their rightful period to execute an abortion
> > without guilt or remorse.
> 
> There is almost always a lot of psychologically difficult stuff  
> around deciding to abort after the hormones are flowing especially.  
>  
> It is not an easy decision and you do women a disservice by painting 
> them as uncaring if they abort.   But it is the woman's decision to  
> make.

If the male doesn't have an equal right to decide, then I refuse to
recognise hers.

> 
> How do you feel about the morning after pill, Mike?   About a week  
> after pill?  A month?   Where do you draw your line?   And where do  
> you get off calling those who disagree insane or sociopaths?

When I see pictures on the internet of Chinese people eating fetus
soup, it becomes clear to me that the abortion movement has slipped its
rails of rationality and has become an advocate for genocide.

As I've stated before, a morning after pill is fine. Out to two weeks
seems fine. Beyond that we enter a sea of gradually rising rights of
the unborn as well as the full rights of the father that are of equal
importance as the mothers rights.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:44:24 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <e88b73ce0506051500184afc30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050606154424.26212.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Neil Halelamien <neuronexmachina at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/5/05, Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
> > Charlie Stross wrote:
> > > 1. A spaceship needs wings and a retractable undercarriage like
> an
> > > automobile needs oars and sails.
> > >
> > I'd dispute that.
> > Almost all designs for a fully reusable spacecraft have wings.
> 
> And that's a good reason for why it's premature to be vouching for
> fully reusable orbital spacecraft just yet. They might be
> economically
> justifiable (and we'll see them being developed by private industry)
> once flight rates get high enough, but in the meantime a low-cost
> semi-reusable like the upcoming SpaceX Falcon rockets seems a far
> better option.
> 
> In the present day the per-unit construction cost of a spacecraft is
> definitely -not- the main driver of launch costs.

On the contrary, Space Ship One, the only private spaceship we have to
draw a baseline from, has wings. Tier two reportedly has wings as well.

Space shuttles cost a few billion to build, they cost somewhere around
$100 million to launch. If you only get 20 missions out of one, your
cost per launch is $200 million. If you can get 40 missions out of one,
your cost is $150 million. Reusability determines a large percent of
operational costs.

Space Ship One reportedly cost $20-$30 million to build (of course
there is a lot of r&d in that that will be taken up by later units).
Fuel costs are reportedly $100k-$200k per mission. If SS1 lasts 20
missions, its costs per mission would be $1.2 million. As Virgin
Galactic has priced tickets at $296,000, last I heard, and given a
minimum 50% margin, Scaled Composites must be claiming that each SS1
derivative ship can fly 80 missions, minimum. If so, then about 60% of
the cost per mission is capital investment, or else Rutan thinks he can
get is production cost per unit down significantly, to $2-5 million
each, likely.

Recall with SS1 that the larger investment is in the mothership, not
the shuttlecock, though it is likely that one mothership should be able
to service several shuttles.

Now, there really isn't any reason why a capsule program can't be
reusable. In fact, the Gemini program did reuse at least one or two of
its capsules in its Gemini B program (where they tested the viability
of building a hatch through the heatshield to access the MOL, which
would weld shut upon reentry.) With modern heat shield technologies, it
should be possible to build rather sophisticated capsules that would
have either reusable or easily replaceable heat shields.

The real contest is whether you can affordably and reliable recover the
rest of the rocket, which has been the real point of the ssto movement,
particularly saving the expensive rocket engines. Others have moved in
a different direction: making rocket engines cheap enough to throw away.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:53:18 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <20050606155318.70347.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
> 
> While I was in the shower I realized that the fear of course comes
> from a PERCEIVED loss of control. I realized that we as humans
> constantly fool ourselves into believing that we are in some sort of
> control when in fact we are not. 
> This is evident in the way that we handle our everyday lives. 

I have a solution for you, then: bring your laptop with you on the
flight, with the x-plane flight simulator installed. Select the type of
aircraft you are flying on from the inventory (once you are boarded,
before you take off) and program in a flight plan (based on the
airport, air corridors, etc), then set it on autopilot and close the
computer. You have now, subconciously, set the course for the 'plane'
you are flying, and are therefore 'in control' of its course.

They will of course require you turn the computer off at takeoff, but
with a good pair of earplugs you won't hear that and you can continue
on believing it is you who is flying the plane through your autopilot...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:55:07 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:55:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <200506060521.j565LqR14205@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050606155507.83526.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Kevin my father-in-law has a terrible fear of flying, 
> specifically that the wings would come off in turbulence.  I 
> launched into a big pontification on how they are stress 
> tested, inspected, planes never have structural failure
> in flight, bla bla and yakkity yak.  About a week later
> the tail fell off that French plane causing it to punch
> a deep hole into the earth.  He has not flown since.

You should show him photos of air force fighters that have shorn off
their wings at the roots in midair collisions but still flown back to
base and landed.... hey, that French plane lost its rudder but still
flew back to the airport. That's a glass half full in my opinion...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:56:00 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] new libertarian
In-Reply-To: <200506060556.j565urR22000@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050606155601.83739.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

q and o is on my blogroll, as is New Libertarian.

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> 
> Hey check this.  I haven't studied all their views, but
> the articles I have read are hitting all the right buttons
> with me:
> 
> http://www.qando.net/articles/tnlv1i3.pdf
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 15:58:08 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050606155808.51856.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight. 
> I refused to play. 

BS Samantha. Your statement I responded to was clearly incindiary,
arrogant, and self-righteous.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 16:09:22 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:09:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <3db4fe4447aecddfe7e33c08f576c991@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20050606160922.42445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Charlie Stross <charlie at stross.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> On 6 Jun 2005, at 09:29, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> >
> > It is a blessing to have safe, legal abortions for women.
> 
> A point the more public-facing anti-abortion groups never seem to get
> round to talking about is that banning abortion won't stop abortions 
> from happening; it'll just make them unsafe criminal affairs, carried
> out furtively, with an attached significant death toll.

I do realize that banning murder hasn't stopped murders from happening,
it has turned what used to be honorable and refereed duels into sorted
and unsafe criminal affairs, carried out furtively, with an attached
significant death toll... oh, you were speaking about abortion, yet I
don't seem to recall any third trimester kids being counted in that
"death toll".... Some small but significant percentage of women die in
illegal third trimester abortions. 100% of children involved in legal
third trimester abortions die. Which is the greater "death toll"?

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Jun  6 16:31:04 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:31:04 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <20050606155318.70347.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606155318.70347.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506061830040.24356@zeus>

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
>>
>> While I was in the shower I realized that the fear of course comes
>> from a PERCEIVED loss of control. I realized that we as humans
>> constantly fool ourselves into believing that we are in some sort of
>> control when in fact we are not.
>> This is evident in the way that we handle our everyday lives.
>
>I have a solution for you, then: bring your laptop with you on the
>flight, with the x-plane flight simulator installed. Select the type of
>aircraft you are flying on from the inventory (once you are boarded,
>before you take off) and program in a flight plan (based on the
>airport, air corridors, etc), then set it on autopilot and close the
>computer. You have now, subconciously, set the course for the 'plane'
>you are flying, and are therefore 'in control' of its course.

Until the inevitable happens...

http://www.neisg.org/Archive/2004/05Graphics/bluetooth.jpg

Alfio


From hal at finney.org  Mon Jun  6 15:57:29 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Mon,  6 Jun 2005 08:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making
	withpredictionmarkets
Message-ID: <20050606155729.0408257E8C@finney.org>

There is actually quite a bit of movement in the U.S. towards prediction
markets.  A good reference site is http://www.chrisfmasse.com/ which keeps
things up to date.  There was a DIMACS conference on the topic earlier
this year, with a good report by Ken Kittlitz who runs the on-line FX
play-money game based on Robin Hanson's Information Futures concept,
http://www.chrisfmasse.com/2/2005/20050207.html .  Ken summarizes
one talk:

: Historically, there have been a number of approaches to setting up a
: real-money event market in the U.S.:
:
: a) Get a "no action" letter from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission
: (CFTC). This simply is documentation stating that the CFTC's enforcement
: arm will take no action against your market, as long as it sticks to the
: conditions set out in the letter. This is what the Iowa Electronic Markets
: (IEM) did in 1992. In some ways, it is the weakest form of approval,
: because the letter can potentially be rescinded.
:
: b) Become a Designated Contract Market (DCM). This is a designation
: issued by the CFTC that enables the recipient to create a market in
: some specified commodities. All the well-known futures exchanges in the
: U.S. are DCMs, as is HedgeStreet, a new entrant (more below). It costs
: a lot of money, and can take anywhere from 90 days to several years to
: obtain (four years in Hedge Street's case).
:
: c) Trade in an "excluded commodity". The CFTC does not regulate direct
: trades between "sophisticated" entities in such things as macro-economic
: indices. However, the sophisticated entities are usually institutions,
: not individuals. Otherwise, the CFTC does regulate trade in most other
: commodities, where a "commodity" is very broadly defined -- most goods
: and services qualify. Not onions, though. After a 1958 slump in onion
: prices allegedly due to speculators, the onion growers lobbied Congress
: to have onions excluded as a futures market commodity.
:
: d) Become a legal gambling entity. This is much harder than either of the
: CFTC options, because gambling is regulated (mostly) by the states. Some
: states have outlawed Internet gambling entirely, which makes running an
: Internet market tricky. Additionally, some federal laws apply.
:
: e) Go offshore. Many sites have done so, though they are violating the
: U.S. Wire Act if they accept bets from U.S. citizens. Very few people
: have been prosecuted for running such sites; the ones that have been
: are U.S. residents.

There is considerable academic research in the area as well.  One interesting
experiment currently being run:

: The Iowa Electronic Markets are now being used to help physicians
: predict the strain(s) of influenza that will occur in the upcoming flu
: season. This is an alternative to the current information aggregation
: mechanism, which is a conference call between 200 (!) "sentinel"
: physicians that occurs early in the year, eight months before the flu
: season hits. Early results are encouraging.

It should be interesting to see how that one comes out.

Hal Finney


From charlie at stross.org.uk  Mon Jun  6 16:54:51 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:54:51 +0100
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <0ed72aca209a2f7fe0b6c572b0504ace@antipope.org>
References: <20050606154424.26212.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0ed72aca209a2f7fe0b6c572b0504ace@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <cf102dfe4a64b2cf2671e0205cb7774f@stross.org.uk>

On 6 Jun 2005, at 16:44, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>> In the present day the per-unit construction cost of a spacecraft is
>> definitely -not- the main driver of launch costs.
>
> On the contrary, Space Ship One, the only private spaceship we have to
> draw a baseline from, has wings. Tier two reportedly has wings as well.

Space Ship One is due to go into orbit ... when?

> Space shuttles cost a few billion to build, they cost somewhere around
> $100 million to launch.

Uh-huh. The Shuttle program costs c. $6Bn/year. This is fixed 
infrastructure costs including the pad, the VAB, and the 5500 people it 
takes to turn the STS around between flights. Maximum flight tempo 
anyone contemplated, post-Challenger but pre-Columbia, was 10 
flights/year; a more realistic tempo with a 4-shuttle fleet was 5/year. 
So we're talking close to a billion per flight.

This is still quite cheap when you compare to Saturn Vs in full-up 
Apollo moon landing configuration, which cost $350-400M per moon launch 
and had a very similar mass to LEO; that was ?350-400M in *1968* 
dollars, so call it $2-3Bn in todays money.

This is before you add the construction costs of the shuttle, of course.

> Space Ship One reportedly cost $20-$30 million to build (of course
> there is a lot of r&d in that that will be taken up by later units).
> Fuel costs are reportedly $100k-$200k per mission. If SS1 lasts 20
> missions, its costs per mission would be $1.2 million.

As I said before: Space Ship One goes into orbit when, exactly?

Until it goes into orbit it ain't a real reusable surface-to-orbit 
space transportation system. And SS1 ain't designed to do that. There's 
a small matter of 5mk/s delta-V that's missing somewhere, along with 
the re-entry thermal protection system and a few other extras. QED.

I'm not questioning Burt Rutan's ability to build a real reusable 
orbiter, if you gave him a deep-pocket budget. But SS-1 isn't the real 
thing, and whatever he came up with would have to be at least one -- 
and probably two to three -- orders of magnitude pricier to build and 
at least one and probably two orders of magnitude more costly to fly. 
Even *without* NASA's bureaucratic flight certification requirements.



-- Charlie



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 16:55:15 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:55:15 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.)
In-Reply-To: <056101c56a6c$79e63770$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com>
	<FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com>
	<056101c56a6c$79e63770$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <31CBF56C-5DC6-45A5-BBFB-9FA0E7F6E0C1@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:50 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>> I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a  
>> fight.   I refused to play.  If you think I did wrong then I am  
>> probably done  with this list.  I have about had it with being  
>> abused by Mike and  having no one back me up.  It SUCKS.
>>
>
> I backed you up.

OK. Yeah. Partly at least.  Thanks.

>
>
>> ....................... I have had it with attempting  to steer  
>> clear of the mess and take a minimal stand only to be tarred  as  
>> equally belligerent.  This is UNJUST and I will not take it anymore.
>>
>
> This thread has gotten off topic. The "famous author" that "self  
> destructs
> in public" seems to have left it.

That was a good idea.  Time to do likewise.

- s


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From charlie at stross.org.uk  Mon Jun  6 16:56:55 2005
From: charlie at stross.org.uk (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:56:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <3a71eb9e2c6a91ae4c7620112459563d@stross.org.uk>
References: <20050606160922.42445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f4d4740f59b3a4ec290f0fa1b665b4f8@antipope.org>
	<3a71eb9e2c6a91ae4c7620112459563d@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1b96e6dea9468d3aee9eb41f73b8a019@stross.org.uk>


On 6 Jun 2005, at 17:09, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>> A point the more public-facing anti-abortion groups never seem to get
>> round to talking about is that banning abortion won't stop abortions
>> from happening; it'll just make them unsafe criminal affairs, carried
>> out furtively, with an attached significant death toll.
>
> I do realize that banning murder hasn't stopped murders from happening,
...
> .... Some small but significant percentage of women die in
> illegal third trimester abortions. 100% of children involved in legal
> third trimester abortions die. Which is the greater "death toll"?

So you're equating third trimester abortion with murder?

Can we agree you're on record as saying that?

Now. Are you willing to go a step further and assert that second 
trimester abortion is equivalent to murder?

C'mon. First trimester?

Pre-implantation fertilized ova?

Where do you draw the line?



-- Charlie (curious) Stross



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 17:38:16 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:38:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <33E90830-567C-4E5D-9FDA-A19C61545A71@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 7:34 AM, Charlie Stross wrote:

> See "British", above, and consider the possibility that a Manichean  
> view of the world ain't part of my outlook. Britain and the US are  
> two nations divided by a linguistic sar-chasm.
>
> (Although if I was going to try and bolt together a post-religious  
> rationalist ethical framework based on game theory with a side- 
> order of utilitarianism, I think I'd probably retain the word  
> "evil" to describe ideologies or beliefs that amount to repeatedly  
> smacking yourself in the face with a two-by-four. And the Christian  
> fundamentalists are a good fit for that pattern of behaviour.)
>

LOL.  Thank you! You have lifted my entire day.

- s


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 17:46:24 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:46:24 -0700
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <3db4fe4447aecddfe7e33c08f576c991@stross.org.uk>
References: <20050606071020.99614.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<000b01c56a71$dd875610$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<132752b669a7c622dc0528bbd9a509c4@antipope.org>
	<3db4fe4447aecddfe7e33c08f576c991@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <5036580D-CFB9-475D-8FFC-305434C57A45@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 7:34 AM, Charlie Stross wrote:

>
> On 6 Jun 2005, at 09:29, Olga Bourlin wrote:
>
>>
>> It is a blessing to have safe, legal abortions for women.
>>
>
> A point the more public-facing anti-abortion groups never seem to  
> get round to talking about is that banning abortion won't stop  
> abortions from happening; it'll just make them unsafe criminal  
> affairs, carried out furtively, with an attached significant death  
> toll.
>
> (The more extreme anti-abortion groups, notably the Christian  
> reconstructionists, want to bring in the death penalty for  
> abortionists *and* the women who use their services *and* for  
> adulterers *and* for homosexuals ... but they don't make a big  
> point of bringing this up in front of the general public. Can't  
> imagine why.)
>

Among other reasons that adultery one would seriously thin their  
ranks and remove a lot of their leaders.

Of course it would probably be enforced about like similar things are  
in Saudi Arabia.  They have serious head chopping laws against  
adultery.  But you have to be accused in such and such formal way by  
two adult men of good standing whe were actual witnesses.  Kinky.    
It generally works out that mutual self-interest keeps too many cases  
from making it to chop-chop square.   When I was there in the 80s you  
could find Mercedes parked out in the desert beyond the city lights  
at night.  The well-heeled often went to Bahrain or even Thailand for  
the weekend.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 17:54:24 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:54:24 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606150956.20626.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606150956.20626.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <53694A50-6DF6-4668-ADEF-C7B84AA1FF13@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I am sorry but after your tirades I refuse to discuss this topic with
>> you.  I did not want to discuss this topic in the first place and
>> certainly not with you.
>>
>
> Tirades? This is clearly slanderous. I don't recall losing my temper
> once over this. That you are incapable of reading anything free of  
> your
> own emotional blinders has been amply demonstrated.
>
>

Whether you lost your temper or not is irrelevant.



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 18:13:51 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:13:51 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	in	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606152658.72965.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606152658.72965.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ACE3EAA4-33DB-4BD2-B9B8-2DA2FDEF7719@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 8:26 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Judgmental and prejudicial of discussion as ever I see.   Why do you
>> belief that just because the 56 day old fetus has a bit more rounded
>> head and recognizable 10 fingers and ten toes that it is now fully
>> endowed with all rights of the actually born and has all the rights
>> at least of the woman carrying it?  Your demarcation seems
>> arbitrary.  It certainly doesn't seem objective enough to call those
>> who don't see it as you do sociopaths or insane.
>>
>
> It is far less arbitrary than your eco-buddies selecting only cute and
> fuzzy animals to demonstrate over....

Why would you think I have "eco-buddies"?  You seem to have stuffed  
me into one of your collectivist pigeon-holes.  Strange that an  
individualist refuses to bother to see me as an individual and  
respond to what I say rather than what the collection he things I am  
part of would (so he thinks) say about totally unrelated topics.

>
>
>>
>> Deciding some point in pregnancy that the pregnancy should only be
>> terminated for more extreme reason makes sense to me on multiple
>> levels.   Part of what I said about a foetus not being a child until
>> the parents say so is also a recognition that after the point of
>> thinking of the foetus as child accidental loss or abortion becomes
>> much more painful emotionally and psychologically. Contrasted with
>> the difficult to define purported rights of the unborn are the
>> obviously present rights of the woman carrying it to self-
>> determination.   Many are the hormonal and psychological pressures to
>> carry to term.  But pregnancy is no cakewalk physically or
>> psychologically.  Saying a woman must carry to term just because she
>> is pregnant is an abrogation of her rights and involuntary servitude.
>> It is a placing of the purported right of the unborn above the rights
>> of the woman.  This is obviously problematic.  In practice a balance
>> will be struck.  In my personal view I would tend to place the line
>> before which abortion is an at will decision roughly at the end of
>> the first trimester.   Abortion after some point in pregnancy should
>> in my opinion only be for very substantial reasons.
>>
>
> Ah, the old 'involuntary servitude' claim rears its head! It is odd,
> Samantha, that you so clearly dismiss such a claim when it is the male
> making it, particularly when the state starts garnishing his wages for
> child support for a child he never wanted.... When did he ever have  
> the
> right to an abortion? Feminists like yourself claim he had his choice
> in the few minutes of copulation, while claiming the mother has 9
> months of choice. Sorry, that isn't "equal protection under the  
> law" or
> "equal rights".
>

There is no "clearly" about it as I have never said any such thing.    
I don't believe as it turns out that the male who is not  
contractually obligated to a female who became pregnant by him should  
have to support the child for a couple of decades if she decides to  
have it.  In actuality I think the divorce laws concerning child  
support have many unfair biases against the guys.  See, if you had  
bothered to find out what I think on this side matter it would have  
been much better than blasting away at the pattern you think I am  
part of.

> Sorry, Samantha, it doesn't wash. The woman chose to take the risk to
> temporarily and voluntarily indenture herself to the kid at the moment
> she chose to procreate,

That would be as objectionable as what you object to.

> just as her sexual partner did, just as anyone
> is bound, indentured, when they sign any sort of contract with another
> party, be it an employment contract, a mortgage, or a marriage, or
> social security: you choose to contract by act (signature or screw,
> doesn't matter), you get bound, and you fulfill the terms of the
> contract.

You don't believe this is just so why are you spewing this?


> No woman can claim she didn't realize the demands of a 9
> month pregancy contract. Incognizance or incompetence is really the
> only escape from such a contract: in this regard, a minor child is
> incognizant and/or incompetent to enter into contract.
>
> If you are going to demand that one party have an escape clause, all
> parties must have the same escape clause.
>

There is no escape clause because there was no contract just by  
having sex to start with.  So everyone is not obligated by a surprise  
pregnancy therefrom.  Fair?

>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to hear Samantha's view on this. 56 days isn't even two
>>> months yet, well within the first trimester that most women tend
>>> to believe is their rightful period to execute an abortion
>>> without guilt or remorse.
>>>
>>
>> There is almost always a lot of psychologically difficult stuff
>> around deciding to abort after the hormones are flowing especially.
>>
>> It is not an easy decision and you do women a disservice by painting
>> them as uncaring if they abort.   But it is the woman's decision to
>> make.
>>
>
> If the male doesn't have an equal right to decide, then I refuse to
> recognise hers.

That is dumb.  It is in her body.  As long as she doesn't have the  
right to force the male to pay child support if he is not otherwise  
contractually obligated (as a spouse) then it very much is her  
choice.   It is dumb to throw out the rights of others if some rights  
and reasonableness are not already upheld by law.   Lack of balance  
needs to be fixed by making it better for all parties not by making  
it more broken for everyone.

>
>
>>
>> How do you feel about the morning after pill, Mike?   About a week
>> after pill?  A month?   Where do you draw your line?   And where do
>> you get off calling those who disagree insane or sociopaths?
>>
>
> When I see pictures on the internet of Chinese people eating fetus
> soup, it becomes clear to me that the abortion movement has slipped  
> its
> rails of rationality and has become an advocate for genocide.
>

This supposed event on the other side of the world has nothing to do  
with the question.

> As I've stated before, a morning after pill is fine. Out to two weeks
> seems fine. Beyond that we enter a sea of gradually rising rights of
> the unborn as well as the full rights of the father that are of equal
> importance as the mothers rights.

There are currently no rights of the unborn that I recognize except  
as derived from the rights of the parents.  I recognize no right of  
the male involved or of the state to force a woman to carry to term.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 18:16:04 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:16:04 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606155808.51856.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606155808.51856.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F8851339-74CD-4D98-9E01-DF0C9E78C3A2@mac.com>

It was a direct response to a load of misogynistic krap you  
unloaded.  It was the most gentle and honest response I could come up  
with at the time.

On Jun 6, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight.
>> I refused to play.
>>
>
> BS Samantha. Your statement I responded to was clearly incindiary,
> arrogant, and self-righteous.
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jun  6 18:36:07 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:36:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <1b96e6dea9468d3aee9eb41f73b8a019@stross.org.uk>
References: <20050606160922.42445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f4d4740f59b3a4ec290f0fa1b665b4f8@antipope.org>
	<3a71eb9e2c6a91ae4c7620112459563d@stross.org.uk>
	<1b96e6dea9468d3aee9eb41f73b8a019@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061408110.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>


AFAICT, Mr. Lorrey is claiming that *abortion* is murder. Once a woman
is pregnant she'd d*mn well better *stay* pregnant full term, or she's
a murderer.  I haven't seen much about the responsibility of the man
in all this, perhaps he has none? Only later The Law might make him
pay - which isn't right as it's the woman's fault, job, responsibility
... (no, he didn't actually say that, but his "tone of voice"
certainly implied that to me)

Our opinions are opposed and I do not expect either of us to change.

His posts have made me wonder what happened in his life. Maybe he is a
very devout Christian with deeply held beliefs about "the human soul"?
Or perhaps he was involved with an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy that
was terminated without his knowledge or against his wishes? Otherwise,
I'm at a bit of a loss to understand where he's coming from.

What exactly makes a bundle of cells into "a person"? How much does
that interesting set of pictures of the embryo differ from those of a
dog or a cat or a monkey - or any other mammal?

If Mr. Lorrey's attitude and words are representative of The Free
State, I'm *awfully* glad I and my family didn't commit to moving
there.

Regards,
MB




On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Charlie Stross wrote:

>
> So you're equating third trimester abortion with murder?
>
> Can we agree you're on record as saying that?
>
> Now. Are you willing to go a step further and assert that second
> trimester abortion is equivalent to murder?
>
> C'mon. First trimester?
>
> Pre-implantation fertilized ova?
>
> Where do you draw the line?
>
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 19:25:15 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061408110.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
Message-ID: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:

> 
> AFAICT, Mr. Lorrey is claiming that *abortion* is murder. Once a
> woman is pregnant she'd d*mn well better *stay* pregnant full term,
or
> she's
> a murderer.  I haven't seen much about the responsibility of the man
> in all this, perhaps he has none? Only later The Law might make him
> pay - which isn't right as it's the woman's fault, job,
> responsibility
> ... (no, he didn't actually say that, but his "tone of voice"
> certainly implied that to me)

In complete ignorance of other 'tones' I've taken. Considering that men
are already convicted of murder and other homicide charges if they
cause a woman to abort without her permission, it is quite clear that
the men are being held to a far higher responsibility standard, and
always have, than the women.

The stats support me: studies of domestic violence show that twice as
many female partners as male believe striking their partner is okay,
and have done so in the past, yet ten times as many males are convicted
of domestic violence. The disparity of responsibility is in the
numbers, which cannot be disputed.

> 
> Our opinions are opposed and I do not expect either of us to change.
> His posts have made me wonder what happened in his life. Maybe he is
> a very devout Christian with deeply held beliefs about "the human
> soul"?
> Or perhaps he was involved with an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy that
> was terminated without his knowledge or against his wishes?
> Otherwise, I'm at a bit of a loss to understand where he's coming
> from.
> 
> What exactly makes a bundle of cells into "a person"? How much does
> that interesting set of pictures of the embryo differ from those of a
> dog or a cat or a monkey - or any other mammal?

If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 6 months (and many thousands
do every day in this country), then third trimester abortion should be
murder. Even Roe v. Wade agrees with me on this point, so if anybody is
being extremist and hyperbolic, it is you, Samantha, and company, not
me.

No, I've not had any religious epiphanies of any sort, as much as you'd
like there to be one. What I have crossed is a threshold. I've been
willing up until recently to tolerate the libertarian majority opinion
(certainly not unanimous to any sort of degree) regarding abortion, the
war, and a few other issues which the vehement squeaky wheels have been
ranting for years that theirs is 'the only position' a libertarian can
take.

The problem is that this ranting left wing of the party has come to
take for granted that their rhetoric is true. They denounce some of us
as 'neo-libertarians', despite the fact that people of our persuation
have been libertarians going back decades, we just haven't been in the
shreiking wing.

Your opinion isn't on issues like this are NOT the default opinions for
libertarians. ANY time there is an issue of one persons rights versus
anothers, libertarians should be very circumspect to examine all sides
and seek to resolve conflicts, not just side orthodoxically with one
party in the conflict.

> 
> If Mr. Lorrey's attitude and words are representative of The Free
> State, I'm *awfully* glad I and my family didn't commit to moving
> there.

That is a cheap shot. BTW: How is the Christian Exodus going down your way?

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From adam at adamkolson.com  Mon Jun  6 19:50:27 2005
From: adam at adamkolson.com (Adam K. Olson)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:50:27 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061408110.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
References: <20050606160922.42445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f4d4740f59b3a4ec290f0fa1b665b4f8@antipope.org>
	<3a71eb9e2c6a91ae4c7620112459563d@stross.org.uk>
	<1b96e6dea9468d3aee9eb41f73b8a019@stross.org.uk>
	<Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061408110.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
Message-ID: <9796f15a5ae5ac9777e6d2a351b72fce@adamkolson.com>

I'm new to this list and therefore naive.

But it seems to me that such 'slippery slope' arguments are as 
irrelevant as which beer is the best (we all know its Guinness). So 
there's no point arguing if Bass is better than Boddingtons or a 
quantitative analysis of the best ice cream at a particular store. 
Fairly hard to accomplish with the limited epistemological access us 
humans have. It's as if arguing in the Judeo-Christian idea of heaven 
most of the angels shop at Ikea because the space saving furniture can 
fit on the head of a pin and still provide plenty of room to dance.

As Mr. Stross said, when can you draw a line? Can I punch someone and 
say "you bastard, you stepped on a particle that will cause a chain 
reaction involving several ions, a few rubber bands, that leads to a 
butterfly flapping its wings and thus killing a rather nice fellow on 
the other side of the world"?


On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:36 PM, MB wrote:

>
> AFAICT, Mr. Lorrey is claiming that *abortion* is murder. Once a woman
> is pregnant she'd d*mn well better *stay* pregnant full term, or she's
> a murderer.  I haven't seen much about the responsibility of the man
> in all this, perhaps he has none? Only later The Law might make him
> pay - which isn't right as it's the woman's fault, job, responsibility
> ... (no, he didn't actually say that, but his "tone of voice"
> certainly implied that to me)
>
> Our opinions are opposed and I do not expect either of us to change.
>
> His posts have made me wonder what happened in his life. Maybe he is a
> very devout Christian with deeply held beliefs about "the human soul"?
> Or perhaps he was involved with an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy that
> was terminated without his knowledge or against his wishes? Otherwise,
> I'm at a bit of a loss to understand where he's coming from.
>
> What exactly makes a bundle of cells into "a person"? How much does
> that interesting set of pictures of the embryo differ from those of a
> dog or a cat or a monkey - or any other mammal?
>
> If Mr. Lorrey's attitude and words are representative of The Free
> State, I'm *awfully* glad I and my family didn't commit to moving
> there.
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
>>
>> So you're equating third trimester abortion with murder?
>>
>> Can we agree you're on record as saying that?
>>
>> Now. Are you willing to go a step further and assert that second
>> trimester abortion is equivalent to murder?
>>
>> C'mon. First trimester?
>>
>> Pre-implantation fertilized ova?
>>
>> Where do you draw the line?
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
--
Adam K. Olson
Student Designer, Comm Tech Lab
http://commtechlab.msu.edu



From charlie at antipope.org  Mon Jun  6 20:01:44 2005
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:01:44 +0100
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self
	destructs in public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <397cb29f24c36a8c4976986ea9dc6ed2@antipope.org>


On 6 Jun 2005, at 20:25, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 6 months (and many thousands
> do every day in this country), then third trimester abortion should be
> murder. Even Roe v. Wade agrees with me on this point, so if anybody is
> being extremist and hyperbolic, it is you, Samantha, and company, not
> me.

I'd like to throw an unintended consequence at you:

A point you might want to pay some attention to is that third-trimester 
abortions -- in the US or the UK or anywhere else -- make up a very 
small proportion of voluntary abortions; usually a pregnant woman who 
doesn't want to be pregnant has done something about it long before 
they reach the third trimester (at which point, aborting is almost as 
uncomfortable and dangerous as giving birth at term).

In contrast, if something goes wrong with the pregnancy -- resulting in 
a dead third-trimester foetus -- you may rest assured that not only is 
the foetus already dead, but its presence in the womb is a lethal 
threat to the ex-mother. This situation occurs rarely, but an order of 
magnitude more often than a voluntary thirty-trimester abortion. 
Unfortunately the procedure for removing a dead foetus is the same as 
for a third-trimester abortion. The result, therefore, of the recent US 
ban on third-trimester abortion is ill, unhappy women at immediate risk 
from a potentially fatal condition being shuffled between hospitals 
because the ob-gyn staff are terrified of being prosecuted for homicide 
if they give them the attention they need.

Now. What do you propose to do about that?

I'm deadly serious here. If you want to ban third-trimester abortions 
you need to explain how they're going to do so without risking even 
worse consequences ... such as women hemorrhaging to death because 
they've miscarried and the ob-gyn won't remove the corpse for fear of 
being prosecuted, or women dying in childbirth (and the child dying at 
the same time) due to late emerging complications of pregnancy that can 
no longer legally be avoided.


-- Charlie



From benboc at lineone.net  Mon Jun  6 20:31:11 2005
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:31:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author etc.
In-Reply-To: <200506061800.j56I0KR23208@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506061800.j56I0KR23208@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <42A4B28F.6090502@lineone.net>

Charlie Stross wrote:
"A point the more public-facing anti-abortion groups never seem to get
round to talking about is that banning abortion won't stop abortions
from happening; it'll just make them unsafe criminal affairs, carried
out furtively, with an attached significant death toll."

But that's a good thing, from a fundamentalist pov. Just as denying 
condoms to poor people, and so encouraging the spread of AIDS is a good 
thing, cos those wicked people who 'sin' are more likely to get AIDS and 
die. And as all good xtians know, the wages of sin are death. Don't 
wan't anybody to get away with sin, now, do they?

ben


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 20:34:42 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:34:42 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006297E9-DF0E-4D59-AB7F-922BA9344A9A@mac.com>


On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:25 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> AFAICT, Mr. Lorrey is claiming that *abortion* is murder. Once a
>> woman is pregnant she'd d*mn well better *stay* pregnant full term,
>>
> or
>
>> she's
>> a murderer.  I haven't seen much about the responsibility of the man
>> in all this, perhaps he has none? Only later The Law might make him
>> pay - which isn't right as it's the woman's fault, job,
>> responsibility
>> ... (no, he didn't actually say that, but his "tone of voice"
>> certainly implied that to me)
>>
>
> In complete ignorance of other 'tones' I've taken. Considering that  
> men
> are already convicted of murder and other homicide charges if they
> cause a woman to abort without her permission, it is quite clear that
> the men are being held to a far higher responsibility standard, and
> always have, than the women.
>

Until very very recently women had very few rights and precious  
little officially recognized control over their lives including  
especially over reproduction choices.    So somehow I don't think  
women have long been overly advantaged relative to men.   Causing to  
abort without permission would be a serious act of aggression, yes?   
Or did you mean something else?  BTW it is MB speaking above and not  
me.  I don't hold to all his views of your position so don't get  
confused about that.

> The stats support me: studies of domestic violence show that twice as
> many female partners as male believe striking their partner is okay,
> and have done so in the past, yet ten times as many males are  
> convicted
> of domestic violence. The disparity of responsibility is in the
> numbers, which cannot be disputed.
>

Yours is a seriously minority interpretation.  I don't have time to  
disentangle it right now.

>
>>
>> Our opinions are opposed and I do not expect either of us to change.
>> His posts have made me wonder what happened in his life. Maybe he is
>> a very devout Christian with deeply held beliefs about "the human
>> soul"?
>> Or perhaps he was involved with an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy that
>> was terminated without his knowledge or against his wishes?
>> Otherwise, I'm at a bit of a loss to understand where he's coming
>> from.
>>
>> What exactly makes a bundle of cells into "a person"? How much does
>> that interesting set of pictures of the embryo differ from those of a
>> dog or a cat or a monkey - or any other mammal?
>>
>
> If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 6 months (and many  
> thousands
> do every day in this country), then third trimester abortion should be
> murder. Even Roe v. Wade agrees with me on this point, so if  
> anybody is
> being extremist and hyperbolic, it is you, Samantha, and company, not
> me.

Actually it takes a lot of medical assistance to get a 6 month old  
fetus to survive.  That we can do so some of the time does not  
automatically support the idea that it is murder to abort at or  
beyond 6 months.   Roe vs Wade does not say it is murder.   But why  
are you addressing me when it was MB who wrote what you are  
responding to?  It seems you are still treating me as part of some  
imagined collective.

>
> No, I've not had any religious epiphanies of any sort, as much as  
> you'd
> like there to be one. What I have crossed is a threshold. I've been
> willing up until recently to tolerate the libertarian majority opinion
> (certainly not unanimous to any sort of degree) regarding abortion,  
> the
> war, and a few other issues which the vehement squeaky wheels have  
> been
> ranting for years that theirs is 'the only position' a libertarian can
> take.
>

I have known libertarians on both sides of the abortion issue for  
years.  I don't recall a position on it as part of a party plank.

> The problem is that this ranting left wing of the party has come to
> take for granted that their rhetoric is true. They denounce some of us
> as 'neo-libertarians', despite the fact that people of our persuation
> have been libertarians going back decades, we just haven't been in the
> shreiking wing.
>

Now those who disagree with you are part of the "left wing"   
libertarians eh?  You really seem to have difficulty thinking outside  
of collectives.

> Your opinion isn't on issues like this are NOT the default opinions  
> for
> libertarians. ANY time there is an issue of one persons rights versus
> anothers, libertarians should be very circumspect to examine all sides
> and seek to resolve conflicts, not just side orthodoxically with one
> party in the conflict.

Libertarians are about the most onerous and heterodox group of people  
around.  To a fault even.

- samantha


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 20:48:47 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:48:47 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] The REAL new urban world this Friday, June 10
Message-ID: <151180-2200561620484719@M2W103.mail2web.com>


From: Stewart Brand

Humanity is urbanizing at a world-changing pace and in a 
world-changing way.  A billion squatters are re-inventing their lives 
and their cities simultaneously.  One of the few to experience the 
range of the phenomenon first hand is Robert Neuwirth, author of 
SHADOW CITIES: A BILLION SQUATTERS, A NEW URBAN WORLD.  He took up 
residence in the scariest-seeming parts of squatter cities in Rio, 
Nairobi, Istanbul, and Mumbai.  They vary profoundly.  What Neuwirth 
found in the new "slums" is the future via the past.  Hence his title:

"The 21st-century Medieval City," Robert Neuwirth, 7pm (doors open), 
Friday, June 10, Fort Mason Conference Center, San Francisco.  The 
lecture starts promptly at 7:30pm.  Admission is free ($10 donation 
very welcome, not required).

This is one of a monthly series of Seminars About Long-term Thinking, 
given every second Friday at Fort Mason, organized by The Long Now 
Foundation.  The next speaker in the series is Jared
Diamond, on July 15.  If you would like to be notified by email of 
forthcoming talks, please contact Simone Davalos--- 
simone at longnow.org, 415-561-6582.

You are welcome to forward this note to anyone you think might be
interested.

				--Stewart Brand



Stewart Brand -- sb at gbn.org
The Long Now Foundation - http://www.longnow.org
Seminars: http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/Seminars.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  6 20:50:39 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <000b01c56a71$dd875610$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050606205039.20552.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> It's the same reason I don't bother
> on
> > opining on whether tampons are superior to
> maxipads. I
> > say leave the woman business to the women.
> 
> Same reason?  Why, you must be independently wealthy
> or something.

I earn a living doing what I love to do which is
researching whatever scientific problem strikes my
fancy. I also have as many material possessions as I
care to keep track of. Does this make me independently
wealthy? In my opinion it does.

> Because - assuming you are fertile - if you should
> find yourself the party 
> to woman's pregnancy - 

This is a big if. I have never had a problem with
condoms failing me and I don't think I would ever
"accidently" conceive a child. Things like that are a
choice for me. 

> she will then decide for you
> (whether you like it or 
> not), and if a child ensues from her decision - it
> is *you* who will be 
> responsible for forking over a good deal of money
> for the child's rearing 
> and welfare.

If the child were mine, chances are it was on purpose.
Even if it wasn't on purpose, if it was mine, I would
be happy to pay for the child's support. If I wanted
to concieve a child, I would discuss it with my
partner. If she was not ready for a child, I would not
expect her to have one until she was ready. If she
simply did not want MY child, then I would find a new
partner. If she tried to pass someone else's child off
as my "accident", I would know since I can run a DNA
paternity test on the child myself in about 4hrs.     

> This is, of course, also assuming she
> is one of those "old 
> fashioned" types who believes in observing this
> particular privilege women 
> have had in past year - and takes you to court if
> you object to her decision 
> to make you pay.

If the child was mine, she would not NEED to take me
to court. I own up to my actions, mistakes or
otherwise.

 
> It is a blessing to have safe, legal abortions for
> women.

I don't disagree with this.


> > 4. Biologically speaking an umbilical cord is the
> most
> > extreme form of welfare yet devised and some women
> DO
> > have children for the express purposes of getting
> more
> > free money from the state.
> 
> >From the state?  Do a majority of women depend on
> welfare to rear their 
> children?  Do you know how difficult it is to get
> welfare? (a great deal of 
> this goes to blind people and people who have
> various disabilities, by the 
> way)  Do you know how financially compromised those
> women are who may need 
> to resort to welfare to help rear their children? 
> You don't really believe 
> in "welfare queens - do you?"  Please, get serious.

Believe in them? We are not talking about angels here.
I have met a mother and daughter two generation family
of welfare queens. Of course they did not make enough
money off of welfare so they supplemented their income
by selling chrystal methamphetamines. They lived the
hell's angel/biker lifestyle, and had several children
each from several different men none of whom they were
married to. Not that it matters, but they happened to
be white too.   

> (Did your mother work 
> for a living?)

She died when I was 12 but she was sort of a
homemaker. So yes she worked but the income came from
my father.

> 
> > 5. Violent sociopathic criminals tend to have
> troubled
> > childhoods wherein they are neglected, unwanted,
> and
> > abused. So I ask, "are we sparing them in the womb
> > only to put them on death row when they turn 18?"
> 
> What a sweeping generalization.  I wouldn't know
> where to begin with this.

There is actually an economist who shows that violent
crime dropped in the ensuing decades following Roe vs.
Wade, so this "sweeping generalization" is not mine
alone.
 
> 
> > 7. The guys who blow up abortion clinics probably
> > don't get laid often.
> 
> And they probably have milk in their refrigerators
> ... so your point is ...?

My point was that I don't have a point. Are you trying
to bait me to get me to choose a side and join the
memetic melee? Nice try but I have more important
things to do. Having an abortion is wrong but so is
having an unwanted child. Which is the lesser of the
two evils? You would be better off asking someone who
has a more accurate moral compass than me. In nature,
a mother that can't support her offspring will often
kill them, not in the womb, but in the nest after they
are born. That is the law of jungle. I will leave
society's laws regarding abortion to the women and the
legislators to decide.



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jun  6 20:48:50 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:48:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] MB
In-Reply-To: <006297E9-DF0E-4D59-AB7F-922BA9344A9A@mac.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<006297E9-DF0E-4D59-AB7F-922BA9344A9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050606154614.01ca8cf0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 01:34 PM 6/6/2005 -0700, Samantha wrote:

>BTW it is MB speaking above and not
>me.  I don't hold to all his views of your position so don't get
>confused about that.

His? As I recall, MB has indicated that she is a mother of several 
children. I might be wrong; presumably most people here assume that MB is 
shorthand for Michael Butler, formerly a frequent poster. MB?

Damien Broderick




From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun  6 21:04:43 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:04:43 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] MB
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050606154614.01ca8cf0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<006297E9-DF0E-4D59-AB7F-922BA9344A9A@mac.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050606154614.01ca8cf0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <387E5B7C-B0C9-4A18-B66D-6BE19A44665A@mac.com>

My sincere apologies if I got it wrong.

On Jun 6, 2005, at 1:48 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 01:34 PM 6/6/2005 -0700, Samantha wrote:
>
>
>> BTW it is MB speaking above and not
>> me.  I don't hold to all his views of your position so don't get
>> confused about that.
>>
>
> His? As I recall, MB has indicated that she is a mother of several  
> children. I might be wrong; presumably most people here assume that  
> MB is shorthand for Michael Butler, formerly a frequent poster. MB?
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jun  6 21:32:32 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:32:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061708460.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>


On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>  Considering that men
> are already convicted of murder and other homicide charges if they
> cause a woman to abort without her permission, it is quite clear that
> the men are being held to a far higher responsibility standard, and
> always have, than the women.


IMHO this convicting of murder etc. for causing a woman to abort (I
presume you're speaking of things like beatings or shootings, where
there is miscarriage as a side effect?) is wrong. We have laws
against assault and the injuries are, I suspect, taken into account
when punishment is decided.

> If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 6 months (and many thousands
> do every day in this country), then third trimester abortion should be
> murder. Even Roe v. Wade agrees with me on this point, so if anybody is
> being extremist and hyperbolic, it is you, Samantha, and company, not
> me.

To be honest, I've never met any woman who wanted or had a third
trimester abortion. My understanding is this would only be in case of
severe health threat, and those things do happen. The women I know who
have had abortions have tried to do so ASAP, not waiting around and
wondering about it - the decision was clear and immediate action was
taken. I have yet to meet any who had regret either. One does what one
needs to do. (My sample space is small.)

> No, I've not had any religious epiphanies of any sort, as much as you'd
> like there to be one.

Like there to be one? No, only trying to understand why you feel as
you do. Trying to imagine what might make *me* feel that way.

> Your opinion isn't on issues like this are NOT the default opinions for
> libertarians. ANY time there is an issue of one persons rights versus
> anothers, libertarians should be very circumspect to examine all sides
> and seek to resolve conflicts, not just side orthodoxically with one
> party in the conflict.

When did I say they were default libertarian opinions? Circumspect?
That would be nice. I don't see it here.

> > If Mr. Lorrey's attitude and words are representative of The Free
> > State, I'm *awfully* glad I and my family didn't commit to moving
> > there.
>
> That is a cheap shot.

It was. And it has come up as a first gut response throughout many of
the threads you've posted to lately. If I look at the posts and the
threads, and take them as they come through to me ("tone" filtered by
email) then the FS will be an authoritarian and unwelcoming place.
Surely that is not correct?

> BTW: How is the Christian Exodus going down your way?

Where? What Exodus? In my dreams :)

Regards,
MB


From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Mon Jun  6 22:22:39 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:22:39 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinion piece on policy-making with
	predictionmarkets
In-Reply-To: <05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com>
	<05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce05060615225058666d@mail.gmail.com>

Another question which comes to mind: What would be the
legality/feasibility of running a prediction market in an Indian
reservation?

On 6/6/05, Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Neil Halelamien wrote:
> 
> > "In his paper 'Shall We Vote on Values, But Bet on Beliefs,' Hanson
> > proposed a new form of government, which he calls a 'Futarchy'. In
> > this government, elected representatives would formally define and
> > manage after-the-fact measurements of national welfare, while market
> > speculators would say which policies they expected to raise national
> > welfare."
> >
> > Which makes me wonder... after the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction to
> > the Policy Analysis Market, are there any actions we can take towards
> > helping make real-money prediction markets legal in the US?
> 
> Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and then, point
> at
> the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter, more capitalist countries.
> 
> Brett Paatsch
> 
> 
>


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jun  6 22:24:49 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:24:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] MB
In-Reply-To: <387E5B7C-B0C9-4A18-B66D-6BE19A44665A@mac.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<006297E9-DF0E-4D59-AB7F-922BA9344A9A@mac.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050606154614.01ca8cf0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<387E5B7C-B0C9-4A18-B66D-6BE19A44665A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061816260.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>


No problem, Samantha. :)

I am not Michael Butler. In fact I think he may have been before my
time. Don't recall ever seeing any posts from him. I've only been here
since 2000.

Yes, I do have children. :)

Regards,
MB



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 00:18:23 2005
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:48:23 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mission to build a simulated brain begins
In-Reply-To: <42A46363.2050501@mail.tele.dk>
References: <710b78fc0506052323869c939@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A46363.2050501@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <710b78fc05060617181c78f785@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/06/05, Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Emlyn wrote:
> 
> >Ah, the singularity. I just grabbed this from >HTech, opinions?
> >-----
> >
> >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7470&feedId=online-news_atom03
> >
> >Mission to build a simulated brain begins
> >
> 
> Very interresting.
> 
> The best result would be if it turned out that neurons in them self are
> unimportant, and that the "real action" takes place in higher structures.
> 
> It is a big difference in AI if a brain must be simulated from
> individual neurons, or if groups of neurons can be considdered as "black
> boxes" of functionality.
> 

They do say that they are going to try to do higher level black boxes,
which seems like a good approach. As far as a full
down-to-the-molecular-level sim, in my opinion a higher level sim is a
good start, because from there it'll be a matter of getting bigger
hardware and tinkering over time to refine and refine it until we get
to a full neuron-by-neuron machine. But the big and rather bold leap
is this first one; having the gumption to try building the first
version. Much kudos to all involved!

Emlyn


From dgc at cox.net  Tue Jun  7 00:22:43 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:22:43 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin>
References: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>

kevinfreels.com wrote

>
>  
> OK. I guess I am done with my rant. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. 
> I know. But since I can't shake the fear, I might as well analyze it. :-)
>  

Hey Kevin. I must have been pretty hard for a control freak such as 
yourself to post that message to the extropy list.
Kudos to you for bravery. (since e-mail cannot convey emotion: this is 
sincere, not sarcasm. Honest.)

Just a question: how well do you handle being a front-seat passenger in 
a car? this is effectively equivalent to being
a passenger in an airliner. except that it is statistically much more 
dangerous.

If you can deal with being a car passenger, how do you do it? can you 
use the same coping mechanisms for air travel?

You are a control freak. Don't apologize for this: you were born that 
way., and there is nothing wrong with it.
Non-control-freaks cannot really empathize with your situation, so we 
cannot really help.




From fauxever at sprynet.com  Tue Jun  7 00:43:54 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:43:54 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	inpublic!Filmateleven.)
References: <200506060500.j5650UR09441@tick.javien.com><FCDEFEF9-CDF5-47C2-BFEC-37A4FFC34799@mac.com><056101c56a6c$79e63770$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<31CBF56C-5DC6-45A5-BBFB-9FA0E7F6E0C1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00eb01c56af9$fbc9e240$6600a8c0@brainiac>


  -----From: Samantha Atkins 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 9:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.)




  On Jun 6, 2005, at 12:50 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote:


    Samantha Atkins wrote:




      I did not engage in flames.  Mike did.  He was trolling for a fight.   I refused to play.  If you think I did wrong then I am probably done  with this list.  I have about had it with being abused by Mike and  having no one back me up.  It SUCKS. 




    I backed you up.
  OK. Yeah. Partly at least.  Thanks.
  ***Me three.
  Olga






      ....................... I have had it with attempting  to steer clear of the mess and take a minimal stand only to be tarred  as equally belligerent.  This is UNJUST and I will not take it anymore.




    This thread has gotten off topic. The "famous author" that "self destructs
    in public" seems to have left it.  


  That was a good idea.  Time to do likewise.


  - s






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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun  7 00:46:44 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:46:44 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stross in The Times
In-Reply-To: <04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050606194253.01cd0620@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 02:13 PM 6/6/2005 +1000, Brett wrote to Charlie Stross:

>So what are you a Canadian living in the US or what? I'm curious because
>I know that you are an observer of developments in ideas futures and I
>am wondering where in the world you are observing them from. I'm
>watching from Australia.

Charlie's profile just appeared in the Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-1506-1639410,00.html

June 05, 2005

The geek taking over the galaxy

If imagination is the key to success for a writer, Charles Stross has it in 
spades. His own future is looking bright, writes David Stenhouse

'I've had 15 years of total obscurity," explains the pale, shaven-headed 
man with the extravagant black beard as he sits squinting at the sun 
outside an Edinburgh cafe.

"I feel like a dog that has been chasing cars for years," he says. "Now 
I've finally caught one."

Charles Stross, a former pharmacist, computer programmer and full-time 
dreamer about mankind's future, is allowed to feel proud of himself. For 
more than a decade he has been labouring in literature's version of a 
distant galaxy. Now it looks like he may be about to achieve major 
mainstream success.

Critics around the world are heaping praise on the Edinburgh-based writer, 
who is up for no fewer than three Hugo awards, the most prestigious prize 
in the world of science fiction. More impressive still, the three 
nominations are for different pieces of work. His galaxy-spanning thriller 
Iron Sunrise is nominated as best novel and two novellas are up for 
separate awards.

As literary prizes go, the Hugos are part Booker prize and part beauty 
pageant, nominated by science-fiction fans.

In August, when the 63rd World Science Fiction Convention comes to Glasgow, 
Stross's output will be judged and voted on by a jury of his peers. If he 
wins, the critical acclaim could well see him join the ranks of Iain Banks 
and JG Ballard as a writer who commands mainstream respect as well as a 
cult following.

Stross certainly seems to have the makings of a star. It's not just that 
his novels are packed with enough high technology and wild invention to 
satisfy the most abstruse tastes; his main theme is one which everyone in 
this sector of the galaxy should be interested in.

"I'm really fascinated by what it means to be human. The human condition is 
very weird, very wonderful, very wild and varied.

"A glimpse in a history book will tell you that things have not always been 
as they are now. The Aztecs were unimaginably strange psychologically. This 
was a civilisation that every 50 years executed thousands of people to make 
sure the sun rose the next day. Nevertheless, they were a stable human 
society.

"Science fiction is the mirror image of the historical. It allows us to 
show people in circumstances we haven't experienced, in events that have 
not yet happened, might not happen or in their more fantastical form may 
well happen.

"What interests me is the idea that human beings are behaviourally plastic. 
This all means you can engineer the human condition, and that's before you 
start to imagine the post-human."

If it all sounds a bit abstract then it is not. In Stross's novels men and 
women still drink, laugh, argue and make love. Teenagers are still 
recognisably teenagers.

It's just that they wear cloned clothes and cleaner robots are afraid to 
enter their bedrooms. These human characters allow even readers who don't 
have a grip on the technology to enjoy Stross's books.

In Iron Sunrise, the plucky heroine Wednesday Shadowmist has a virtual 
friend called Herman whose thoughts are beamed directly into her 
cerebellum. There is also an evil cult called the ReMastered (the Space 
Nazis) that have, as their name suggests, been given the kind of upgrade 
that eugenecists could only dream of.

So what has given 40-year-old Stross, who lives with his wife and two cats 
in a flat in Leith, Edinburgh, such a visionary view of mankind's future? 
Leaving aside the fact that as a small boy in his native Leeds he would 
devour all the science-fiction books in his local library, inhaling the 
dystopian visions of JG Ballard and Brian Aldiss, Stross's early twenties 
gave him all the inspiration he needed when he grabbed a ringside seat at a 
revolution.

In the 1980s, when most of us had not yet heard of the internet, Stross had 
one of the earliest e-mail addresses in the country. Taking part in what he 
describes as "possibly the biggest revolution in communication since the 
invention of language" blew his mind.

Nowadays just about every cafe in town is full of people tapping away on 
their laptops. But Stross is a hardcore computer user, more interested in 
code and programming than in fancy gadgets. It's not hard to imagine him in 
a cubicle in Silicon Valley happily feeding endless lines of digital code 
into a computer mainframe.

Sometimes it makes him seem like an ubergeek. At one point he says 
"regrettably I'm monolingual in human tongues. I deal with computers but 
not foreign languages".

He's not joking. His website contains diatribes on the state of science 
fiction and attacks on internet censorship. He is a regular on newsgroups 
and bulletin boards and his site features nostalgic hymns of praise to 
obscure computer languages.

At one point he presents a lighthearted description of himself in "geek 
code", a mock furmula invented by himself.

Once decoded, he says, it reveals he is a "geek of technical writing", that 
his T-shirts tend to bear political slogans (though today he is wearing 
standard goth black, which seems to have gone a bit purple in the wash) and 
he'll "be the first in line to get the cybernetic interface installed into 
my skull".

Even without the interface, Stross believes in networking. Send him an 
e-mail and he will be happy to send you the electronic manuscript of 
whichever book he's working on. And he'd welcome your comments.

It's a million miles away from the touchy, self-protective way most writers 
behave.

"Of course I become defensive if someone doesn't like my book," he says. 
"That is a natural reaction, but you must be careful not to take it too 
far. Stephen King had a very good piece of advice for would-be 
storytellers. If there's something you really really like but several test 
readers don't get it, you had better look at taking it out. Investing too 
much of your ego in the work is going to drive out the work and leave only 
the ego."

But for all Stross' success, it is important to realise that, at least 
once, he got left behind by the technological revolution he now admires.

In 1994, Stross had a brilliant idea. Working as a young computer 
programmer and filled with excitement at the possibilities of the internet, 
he began to write The Web Architect's Handbook, the first guide to 
designing a personal website.

The dot com boom was a few years in the future, but there was a hunger for 
information on how to exploit the resources of the internet. Stross's 
knowledge could have made him a fortune. But he got sidetracked by other 
projects and by the time the book appeared in 1996 it had been swamped by 
other titles on the same subject.

It seems like a classic missed opportunity, but though the guide came to 
nothing, he learned a vital lesson from it. The future comes quicker than 
you think.

More than 10 years on, the bewildering speed of scientific progress is the 
theme behind Stross's new book, Accelerando, a novel made up of nine 
interconnecting short stories that one critic has described as his 
"renaissance cathedral", another says it is "destined to change the face of 
the genre".

Accelerando describes a universe that, starting the day after tomorrow, 
accelerates in technological know-how so fast that before long human beings 
are downloading their personalities and uploading new talents at the press 
of a button.

At its heart the novel is a comic, sprawling family saga. The first chapter 
begins a few years from now with a gadget freak called Manfred Macx. Within 
a few chapters it has spun forward into the far future, following the 
adventures of his extended family. Oh, and some of the book is narrated by 
a robot cat.

"My job is to entertain people," explains Stross. "If I don't entertain 
people they're not going to read it. I am competing in an economy of 
information with the movies, the internet and the new Dr Who series, so I 
have to keep people amused."

That mixture of human comedy and cutting-edge technology clearly pays 
dividends. Even leaving aside the Hugo nominations, critics of science 
fiction are falling over themselves to praise Stross's work.

Andrew Wilson, the editor of Nova Scotia: New Scottish Speculative Fiction 
(an anthology of new Scottish sci-fi to which Stross has contributed an 
original twist on the Faustian pact), sees Stross as being in the vanguard 
of a new wave of Scottish science fiction writing "It used to be that if 
you spoke about a Scottish spacecraft, people just laughed. But now we are 
the country that produced Dolly the sheep, the country that develops 
artificial intelligence," says Wilson. "You don't need to pretend to be 
American to write science fiction. Charlie is clearly a massive talent. 
Rather like taking a broken down old car and sticking a fusion engine in 
it, he has the capacity to transform material that was looking old and give 
it new life.

"I think Accelerando is a crowning achievement. And this will be his year."

The 63rd World Science Fiction Convention is held in Glasgow from August 
4-8. Accelerando is published in Britain by Orbit on August 4






From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Tue Jun  7 00:51:20 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:51:20 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061708460.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061708460.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
Message-ID: <42A4EF88.2060703@humanenhancement.com>

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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Tue Jun  7 01:41:32 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:41:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion
In-Reply-To: <42A4EF88.2060703@humanenhancement.com>
References: <20050606192515.23446.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.WNT.4.55.0506061708460.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>
	<42A4EF88.2060703@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506062135240.-128157@pentium.mb.willtown.net>


Hm. Thanks. Never heard of it. I thought maybe it meant the
super-Christians were moving out, not that they were moving in. Geez.

My sister-in-law will be delighted. It sounds just like her.

Sigh.

Regards,
MB


On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> MB wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>
>
>
>  BTW: How is the Christian Exodus going down your way?
>
>
>  Where? What Exodus? In my dreams :)
>
>
>
> I believe Mike is referring to http://christianexodus.org/
>
> Why (or how) he believes you live in South Carolina, is anybody's guess, since your email
> address implies you're in North Carolina. Fortunately, I no longer find my inbox plagued
> with Mike's weird rants since I've added him to my twit filter, but occasionally
> something comes through in a reply, such as yours.
>
> Joseph
>
> Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal":
> http://www.humanenhancement.com
> New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
> PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 5/29/05)
>
>


From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Jun  7 02:06:59 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon,  6 Jun 2005 22:06:59 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050606152658.72965.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-D57181F0D6F811D9A755000393A47D36@[192.168.1.2]>

 (6/6/05 8:26) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>As I've stated before, a morning after pill is fine. Out to two weeks
>seems fine. Beyond that we enter a sea of gradually rising rights of
>the unborn as well as the full rights of the father that are of equal
>importance as the mothers rights.


The father?  The father doesn't face the health risk of childbirth nor the same economic risks as the mother. By necessity, his rights are absolutely subordinate the mother's right to choose whether to carry the child to term.

Of course, in the perfect anarchocapitalist society, the mother would also have the right to shoot the father's balls off for putting her in that situation.  </joke>


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Jun  7 02:27:06 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon,  6 Jun 2005 22:27:06 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Abortion (was: Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-A4A8A640D6FB11D9A755000393A47D36@[192.168.1.2]>

 (6/6/05 12:25) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 6 months (and many thousands
>do every day in this country), then third trimester abortion should be
>murder. Even Roe v. Wade agrees with me on this point, so if anybody is
>being extremist and hyperbolic, it is you, Samantha, and company, not
>me.

Viability of the fetus is a poor yardstick for determining whether an act is a felony.  Further, your logic is somewhat flawed since the child isn't outside the womb. Your consequent, as it were, does not follow.


>
>No, I've not had any religious epiphanies of any sort, as much as you'd
>like there to be one. What I have crossed is a threshold. I've been
>willing up until recently to tolerate the libertarian majority opinion
>(certainly not unanimous to any sort of degree) regarding abortion, the
>war, and a few other issues which the vehement squeaky wheels have been
>ranting for years that theirs is 'the only position' a libertarian can
>take.

Heh. Could that possibly be because they, unlike you, recognize that any lines drawn are by necessity arbitrary and thus subject to the whims of politicians. In such cases, better to let the government stay out of it and let people act as conscience dictates. Such is the perogative of a free society after all.


>
>Your opinion isn't on issues like this are NOT the default opinions for
>libertarians. 

Pot, meet Kettle.  Maybe now you'll be a little less strident when dealing with libertarians who disagree with you.



>
>> 
>> If Mr. Lorrey's attitude and words are representative of The Free
>> State, I'm *awfully* glad I and my family didn't commit to moving
>> there.
>
>That is a cheap shot. BTW: How is the Christian Exodus going down your way?

At least that cheap shot was on target.  There is a big difference between SC and NC. Light years of difference. Still, allowances must be made for people who forget that women carry babies to term, not men...


B

-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun  7 04:10:35 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:10:35 -0700
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <cf102dfe4a64b2cf2671e0205cb7774f@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <200506070411.j574B7R06697@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
...
> 
> This is still quite cheap when you compare to Saturn Vs in full-up
> Apollo moon landing configuration, which cost $350-400M per moon launch
> and had a very similar mass to LEO; that was ?350-400M in *1968*
> dollars, so call it $2-3Bn in todays money...
> -- Charlie


LM PLAN EVOLVES ATLAS TO SATURN V-CLASS PERFORMANCE: Lockheed Martin has
mapped out an evolutionary development plan for its Atlas launch vehicle
that would steadily increase performance to ultimately exceed that of the
Apollo program's Saturn V, a company official said. Just as today's Atlas V
has its roots in the Atlas ICBM of the 1950s, the "future Atlas evolution"
will proceed in a logical manner, with each new phase providing simple and
reliable vehicles, according to George Sowers of Lockheed Martin Space
Systems. There have been 76 successful Atlas launches in a row. The last
Atlas failure was in 1993. The new Atlas plan is in response to President
Bush's January 2004 space exploration vision, which will require highly
capable space transportation systems for such demanding missions as human
flights to the moon and Mars. But one major tenet of the plan is prosaic -
ensuring an ability to capture the low end of the market. The plan stresses
creation of a family of launch vehicles for all customers, and building the
family from a set of common modular elements. (Aerospace Daily & Defense
Report)





From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it  Tue Jun  7 04:34:27 2005
From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:34:27 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>


Stuart:
>1. I have never met a woman who has admitted to
>getting an abortion that did not express some degree
>of remorse about it or wasn't otherwise profoundly
>affected by it.
>2. I have never met a woman who admitted to having
>more than one abortion.

Olga:
>> Because - assuming you are fertile - if you should
>> find yourself the party 
>> to woman's pregnancy - 

Stuart:
>This is a big if. I have never had a problem with
>condoms failing me and I don't think I would ever
>"accidently" conceive a child. Things like that are a
>choice for me. 


Sorry, Stuart, but I think a serious dose of reality would help.

I was pregnant twice during the long years with my first boyfriend
(high school sweetheart), once when I was 17, once when I was 19.
The first was due to our being foolish, the second was the fluke of
statistics, since I was on birth control. Since I was not ready to
be a mom in both cases, we pooled our scarse money resources
quickly, went together to the Planned Parenthood clinic to take care
of it. No regrets.  We didn't tell our parents, since it was our
responsibility and we didn't want anyone to worry. The only notable
thing about these experiences in 1978 and 1980 was that I had a cold
during the first time, and so instead of the usual general
anasthesia, I was given ketamine, and I hallucinated badly coming
out  of the procedure, and my sweetheart was sitting out in the waiting
room for hours wondering what happened to me. The second time I
didn't want the anasthesia. 

Amara



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Jun  7 04:58:37 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:58:37 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>
References: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin> <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>
Message-ID: <42A5297D.8020808@mindspring.com>

Dan Clemmensen wrote:

> kevinfreels.com wrote
>
>>
>>  
>> OK. I guess I am done with my rant. Lies, damned lies, and 
>> statistics. I know. But since I can't shake the fear, I might as well 
>> analyze it. :-)
>>  
>
>
> Hey Kevin. I must have been pretty hard for a control freak such as 
> yourself to post that message to the extropy list.
> Kudos to you for bravery. (since e-mail cannot convey emotion: this is 
> sincere, not sarcasm. Honest.)
>
> Just a question: how well do you handle being a front-seat passenger 
> in a car? this is effectively equivalent to being
> a passenger in an airliner. except that it is statistically much more 
> dangerous.
>
> If you can deal with being a car passenger, how do you do it? can you 
> use the same coping mechanisms for air travel?
>
> You are a control freak. Don't apologize for this: you were born that 
> way., and there is nothing wrong with it.
> Non-control-freaks cannot really empathize with your situation, so we 
> cannot really help.


[Les Strouse, a former Air America pilot, now living in Thailand is 
fearful of stepladders.
He flew Pilatus Porters landing and taking off from hilltop and 
ridgeline airstrips in Laos
and singlehandedly flew a new PP from Switzerland to Saigon.  Go 
figure!  -Terry]

Hi Terry,
A solid list of experiments has determined that human babies
(less than 1 year old - crawling stage) will not crawl - on a
solid glass floor - out over a drop underneath that glass floor.

They will however, if tempted or otherwise cajoled - agree to
back out over the drop. But as soon as that `drop' becomes
visible they immediately retreat to the non-drop portion of their
environment.

It seems we have a memory which says `height is dangerous' -
especially if you're _not_ in control.

cheers

Ray D

Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If not wholly
learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this experiment has 
included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?

Terry



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 05:03:02 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:03:02 -0700
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Fly Me to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <200506070411.j574B7R06697@tick.javien.com>
References: <cf102dfe4a64b2cf2671e0205cb7774f@stross.org.uk>
	<200506070411.j574B7R06697@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce0506062203151e91e2@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/05, spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
> ...
> >
> > This is still quite cheap when you compare to Saturn Vs in full-up
> > Apollo moon landing configuration, which cost $350-400M per moon launch
> > and had a very similar mass to LEO; that was ?350-400M in *1968*
> > dollars, so call it $2-3Bn in todays money...
> > -- Charlie
> 
> 
> LM PLAN EVOLVES ATLAS TO SATURN V-CLASS PERFORMANCE: Lockheed Martin has
> mapped out an evolutionary development plan for its Atlas launch vehicle
> that would steadily increase performance to ultimately exceed that of the
> Apollo program's Saturn V, a company official said. Just as today's Atlas V
> has its roots in the Atlas ICBM of the 1950s, the "future Atlas evolution"
> will proceed in a logical manner, with each new phase providing simple and
> reliable vehicles, according to George Sowers of Lockheed Martin Space
> Systems. There have been 76 successful Atlas launches in a row. The last
> Atlas failure was in 1993. The new Atlas plan is in response to President
> Bush's January 2004 space exploration vision, which will require highly
> capable space transportation systems for such demanding missions as human
> flights to the moon and Mars. But one major tenet of the plan is prosaic -
> ensuring an ability to capture the low end of the market. The plan stresses
> creation of a family of launch vehicles for all customers, and building the
> family from a set of common modular elements. (Aerospace Daily & Defense
> Report)

In a recent interview Elon Musk (former PayPal CEO and head of SpaceX)
discussed some of his plans to eventually scale up his Falcon series
of rockets to Saturn V-class. He predicts he should be able to get
launch costs of less than $500 a pound at those sizes.

Of course, the first of his Falcon rockets still needs to get off the
ground. They recently had a successful hold-down firing at the launch
pad, and are planning to launch in a couple of months.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sfn_050528_falcon1.html

The radio interview: http://www.thespaceshow.com/detail.asp?q=343

SpaceX also recently signed a 2-year agreement with NASA which
"provides a framework for working with NASA on future spaceflight
needs in support of low Earth orbit space missions and other steps in
the Vision for Space Exploration": http://spacex.com/press17.php

-- Neil


From pgptag at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 06:24:38 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:24:38 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Oxford Future of Humanity Institute
Message-ID: <470a3c52050606232464678b8b@mail.gmail.com>

The Oxford Future of Humanity Institute <http://www.oxfhi.ox.ac.uk/> was 
founded on 1 June 2005. OXFHI is part of the new James Martin School for the 
21st Century at Oxford University. Dr. Nick Bostrom has been appointed as 
its director. Recruitment will take place over the next few month, with a 
view of starting activity in October 2005.
The Institute aims to become humanity's best effort at understanding its own 
long-term prospects. OXFHI will study how anticipated technological 
developments may change human beings and transform the human condition.
Congratulations Nick!
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 07:20:50 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
Message-ID: <20050607072050.55316.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Amara Graps <Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it> wrote:

> I was pregnant twice during the long years with my
> first boyfriend
> (high school sweetheart), once when I was 17, once
> when I was 19.
> The first was due to our being foolish, the second
> was the fluke of
> statistics, since I was on birth control. Since I
> was not ready to
> be a mom in both cases, we pooled our scarse money
> resources
> quickly, went together to the Planned Parenthood
> clinic to take care
> of it. No regrets.  We didn't tell our parents,
> since it was our
> responsibility and we didn't want anyone to worry.
> The only notable
> thing about these experiences in 1978 and 1980 was
> that I had a cold
> during the first time, and so instead of the usual
> general
> anasthesia, I was given ketamine, and I hallucinated
> badly coming
> out  of the procedure, and my sweetheart was sitting
> out in the waiting
> room for hours wondering what happened to me. The
> second time I
> didn't want the anasthesia. 

Well I guess statistics are such that I would sooner
or later meet someone like you. With all the strong
emotion flying back and forth about this most touchy
of subjects, I am not sure whether I should give you
my condolences or congratulations. But either way
thank you for sharing. Aside from your simple
narrative of what happened, I am somewhat curious how
you felt about it? And do you feel differently about
it now then you did then? 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 08:08:58 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:08:58 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <42A5297D.8020808@mindspring.com>
References: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin> <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>
	<42A5297D.8020808@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce05060701081315a436@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/6/05, Terry W. Colvin <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If not wholly
> learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this experiment has
> included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?

I don't recall about primates, but the visual cliff experiment has
definitely been repeated on primates and cats. It's one of the staple
experiments of perception science -- I think there's been a good bit
done on trying to determine precisely which area of the brain is
responsible for the effect.

I don't have time to search right now, but a google scholar search
turns up plenty of results:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22visual+cliff%22


From amara at amara.com  Tue Jun  7 08:14:31 2005
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:14:31 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <p06210200becb04661978@[150.146.134.133]>


Stuart:
>Well I guess statistics are such that I would sooner
>or later meet someone like you.

Statistics? I think you have not met many women.

>With all the strong
>emotion flying back and forth about this most touchy
>of subjects, I am not sure whether I should give you
>my condolences or congratulations.

Neither.

>Aside from your simple
>narrative of what happened, I am somewhat curious how
>you felt about it?

Given that I was 17, and that I never had general anesthesia
before, being 'put to sleep' was a scary experience.

I remember that my boyfriend bought me a delicious milkshake
afterwards. (I had dry-heaved my empty stomach on the ketamine and
was dehydrated and very disoriented.) And because I was in the clinic
for longer than I expected, I was late for my appointment of
baby-sitting my  little sister that evening, and my parents were
angry at me when I arrived home. (I told them 10 years later why
I was late.)

>And do you feel differently about it now then you did then?

No. But there is a new issue, which is that I am 25 years older. When
I was in my 20s and 30s, egg-freezing was not a viable option like it
is now. Women of my age are basically screwed if they want to develop
their potential in all of the ways that Nature gives them.

I worked so hard during the last 25 years to make the best decisions
for my life, and to prepare myself for caring well for myself and for
a family, that it is probably too late now for a family. That makes
me upset. The last 2.5 years was not the best use of my time.

(sent to the Italian version of the Scientific American: "Le Scienze"
yesterday. I hope that they publish it.)

Amara

=====================================================================

  {Redazione di Le Scienze e Claudia Di Giorgio]

  Experiences of a Foreign Scientist in Italy


  As a foreigner (U.S, Latvia citizenships) living and working in the
  planetary sciences in Italy for the last 2.5 years, when I see
  advertisements for the recruitment of scientists for new institutes
  in Italy, I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. No sane person
  would go for a scientific job in Italy, if they knew what is
  embedded in the process of trying to make a scientific career in
  Italy. In addition, I don't think that Italian science employers are
  aware of the amount of attention that their foreign hiree needs in
  order to solve the issues involved in living and working in their
  country. I'm the first example in my Institute of a foreign /
  extracommunitari scientist choosing to make a career (more than a
  visit) there. When I moved, I was already living in Germany for five
  years, therefore, I had some previous experience living and
  performing scientific work in Europe.

  The procedure and paperwork for my entering Italy included visiting
  Italian embassies scattered in southern Germany (each embassy had a
  different function, no known opening hours), a visa procedure that
  was changing every month, translations of my 'documents' (but no
  one could say _which_ documents) by 'approved translators' only. At
  the end I received my three-month, one-entry-only visa, barely
  before I arrived in the country. The pre-move and moving expenses
  are the responsibility of the hiree.

  Once I arrived, a longer set of requirements and documents for my
  CNR job and then the permesso di soggiorno.

  According to the Questura's own rules, the permesso di sorggiorno
  processing will take three weeks, but I received mine in five
  months. During this time, I was not permitted to travel out. I
  renewed my permesso one month before it expired, and since November
  2003 (at the time of this writing in June 2005) I'm still waiting.
  Two letters from my institute saying my permesso is necessary for
  performing my job and my fifty visits (totalling about a week of my
  time) to the Questura accomplished nothing.

   For the job, the salary doesn't cover basic living costs in my area
  (Rome). I am alone, I don't own property, I don't have family
  living in the area, I pay rent like any normal newcomer, which
  absorbs 2/3 of my salary immediately. I took a second job teaching
  astronomy at night, in order to  pay for living expenses, but I
  learned too late that Italian taxes absorb so much, that the only
  the important aspect that I gained was the experience.

  For my business travel, I discovered that Italian scientists place
  their business travel on their personal credit cards and are
  reimbursed (sometimes many) months later by their Institutes. I
  didn't have European credit cards, I had only one U.S. bank credit
  card because I proudly paid off all my debt in the years before I
  moved to Italy. Since my Italian bank associated with my institute
  job did not know how to transfer money to U.S. banks, I needed to
  get a new Italian credit card for my business travel, which took
  one year: the first Italian banks rejected me because I was new in
  Italy and they automatically put black marks on my financial record
  because they rejected me.

  My business travel potentially put me in the same U.S. state as my
  family, yet I could not legally spend more than three days with
  them (travelling to them on my own vacation time and with my own
  money), due to CNR rules for business travel. Regardless, my
  institute has had little/no money to allow business travel in the
  last year.

  I used my own personal computer (6 years old) for most of my
  institute work and when it finally broke, my institute had no money
  for a replacement, therefore I bought a new-used computer from
  e-bay. However I didn't see my computer purchase until two months
  later because it was lost in US Postal mail, Poste Italiano mail,
  and in the Italian customs (the customs in Milano never notified me
  that they had my computer).

  I don't think that my situation is unusual for any foreign
  scientist beginning a career in Italy at this time. In my
  experiences living and working in Italy, I didn't face a culture
  shock, but instead, I faced (and I continue to face) a daily
  "how to live?" shock.

  Amara Graps, PhD

  amara.graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it
  www.amara.com

  ***********************************************************
  Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, CNR - ARTOV,
  Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA
  ***********************************************************




From sm at vreedom.com  Tue Jun  7 18:17:52 2005
From: sm at vreedom.com (sm at vreedom.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:17:52 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
Message-ID: <1118168272.42a5e4d058baf@www.config-server.de>

Hi brother in fear of flight . . .

>I'm getting ready to leave on my second commercial flight in my life and I am
>dealing with
>that annoying fear of flying. For the past two days I have not been able to
>concentrate on much else. It's always in the back of my head.
>Yet I know very well the statistics regarding airline safety. I am quite aware
> that I am probably more likely to have a plane land on my head than die in a
>crash since I have flown so rarely.

I know that . . . It is especially difficult because I live in one country and
work in another which is 2000 km away! Therefore I MUST fly!

>While I was in the shower I realized that the fear of course comes from a
PERCEIVED loss of >control. I realized that we as humans constantly fool
ourselves into believing that we are >in some sort of control when in fact we
are not.
>This is evident in the way that we handle our everyday lives.

>It led me to think about religion and how devoutly religious people give up
control of >their lives to God. I began to realize that this deep seated need
to feel in control of our >lives must go back really far. In fact, it could
very well be the driving force behind >religion, not fear of death, but fear of
loss of control.

I think you have a point. In everyday consulting work I see that a lot of things
related to strategy, decisions and leadership basically have fear as a basic,
not the management-lingo communicated. Also in conflicts of countries. It all
goes down to individual fear. We start to do seminars about fear for
business-folks now.

Some ideas about your control-topic. Most phobia/fear-specialists in the
neuro-field say that it?s not so much a question of personality
("control-freak") but of an amygdala in your brain which learned something
wrong. The neural way via the amygdala is very fast, faster than logical
thought to intervene. Therefore it is not so much the question to get control
over the plane, but over your own emotional reaction.
A relatively new approach (I haven?t used it yet, but I want to) is
D-Cycloserine which is a substance interfering with your fear-memory. It
doesn`t suppress fear, but it brings your amygdala to the point to forget that
it once reacted with fear to planes . . . Transhumanism  will have to further
the toolbox for modern management of our own mind!

Have a good flight!

Stephan

Stephan Magnus
High Performance Solutions GmbH

B?ro Portugal: Sitio Pincho, 8600-090 Bensafrim
Tel. 00351-282 969 161
Mobil: 0172/5783953
sm at vreedom.com
http://www.vreedom.com

Zentrale Deutschland: ?hlm?hle, 34454 Bad Arolsen
Tel. 05691-628800
stephanmagnus at hpsolutions.de
http://www.hpsolutions.de



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 19:00:13 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public!
	Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <p06210200becb04661978@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <20050607190013.13603.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:

> 
> Stuart:
> >Well I guess statistics are such that I would
> sooner
> >or later meet someone like you.
> 
> Statistics? I think you have not met many women.

     This is an interesting inference for you to make
considering that you have never met me. In my opinion
I know plenty of women. Maybe not as many super-models
as I would like, but plenty of women in general. I
have a girlfriend that I care deeply about and with a
few notable exceptions, I am close friends with many
of my ex-girlfriends. Add to that relatives, friends I
have not slept with, colleagues, and aquaintences and
I would say that I know at least as many women as I do
men if not more.       
     So is your assertion that I do not know many
women based on the assumption that I actually discuss
the abortion history of a significant percentage of
the women that I know? If that is the case, allow me
to to clarify that it is not something I bring up with
most of the women I know. Not only is such not polite
dinner conversation but it isn't really any of my
business. And since I have no axe to grind one way or
another about the issue, I don't really care what a
woman's abortional history is. 
     The only reason I even brought it up in the first
place is that there have been a few times that women
have volunteered such personal information to me for
their own reasons. One of the cases that I recall was
an unmarried woman in her 40's that desperately wanted
children but didn't have any and believed that she was
being "punished" for the abortion she had in her
younger years.
      The other instance that I remember was a younger
woman that was asking me for medical advice as to
whether the build-up of scar tissue in her fallopian
tubes that rendered her infertile might have been
caused by an abortion she had gotten. In both cases
there was discernable remorse.
      The closest that I have come to having abortion
affect me personally were a few scares due to missed
periods on the part of few of my girlfriends.
Fortunately they turned out to be false alarms. I find
that condom use with spermicidal jelly is a very
efficient means of birth control that have the added
benefit of protecting against STDs. Whatever YOUR
personal experience with birth control might be, these
methods have not failed me YET.      

> No. But there is a new issue, which is that I am 25
> years older. When
> I was in my 20s and 30s, egg-freezing was not a
> viable option like it
> is now. Women of my age are basically screwed if
> they want to develop
> their potential in all of the ways that Nature gives
> them.

     From what I understand, freezing unfertilized
eggs still doesn't work reliably. But for "career"
women, who want children after they have established
themselves, I would counsel them to choose a man early
in their career, whose children they would want, and
have IVF performed. There are not any technical
problems involved in freezing fertilized eggs, so the
zygotes that result can be stored indefinately until
the woman is ready. With the latest advances it seems
that having these implanted and could be brought to
term well into a woman's 50's with no ill effects.   


> I worked so hard during the last 25 years to make
> the best decisions
> for my life, and to prepare myself for caring well
> for myself and for
> a family, that it is probably too late now for a
> family. That makes
> me upset. The last 2.5 years was not the best use of
> my time.

This seems to be similar to my first example although
you obviously feel no remorse.

> (sent to the Italian version of the Scientific
> American: "Le Scienze"
> yesterday. I hope that they publish it.)
> 

Good luck, I hope they publish it. I think scientists
in the early phases of their career are underpaid in
EVERY country and not just abroad. It is pretty silly
that such prerequisites of intelligence, extensive
schooling, and talents is so unrewarded in so many
cases. But at least in my field, riches are often just
a single patent away. Have you considered the
aerospace industry as an alternative?

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 22:25:52 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKMEHBEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>
Message-ID: <20050607222552.38707.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A political vandal and wiki-stalker by the handle "Firebug" is trying
to get this wike page delted and they've removed the list of prominent
neo-luddites. If you folks have not already, please go to this page,
see the link to the deletion vote, and help with maintaining and
protecting this information. Folks from infoshop.org are behind trying
to delete this information from public notice.

--- mike99 <mike99 at lascruces.com> wrote:

> I've added a bit to the Right-wing Neo-Luddism section concerning the
> Discovery Institute.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael LaTorra
> 
> mike99 at lascruces.com
> mlatorra at nmsu.edu
> 
> "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open
> eyes
> towards slavery."
> -- Jacob Bronowski
> 
> "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
> -- Eugen Leitl
> 
> Member:
> Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association:
> www.transhumanism.org
> Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
> http://ieet.org/
> Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
> Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
> Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
> President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  7 22:37:55 2005
From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEW TRANSHUMANIST WEB PAGE: www.posthumano.net
Message-ID: <20050607223755.84467.qmail@web32803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear friends,
 
    In a great transhumanist, transdisciplinary and transcountry effort, you can see the preliminary design of a new transhumanist web page mostly in Spanish:
 
www.posthumano.net
 
     Please, send us your comments:
 
Carlos Parra: gerenciadivulgar at yahoo.com
Walter Farah: walterfarah at yahoo.com
Juan Arbelaez: juanarbelaezp at hotmail.com
Jose Cordeiro: jose at cordeiro.org
 
     Transhumanistically yours,



La vie est belle!

Yos? (www.cordeiro.org)

Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse


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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Tue Jun  7 23:05:32 2005
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (=?Windows-1252?Q?Henrik_=D6hrstr=F6m?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:05:32 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <42A5297D.8020808@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <DHEDKDAFOIKEGEPMAFCEEELFDBAA.henrik.ohrstrom@gmail.com>

>
> Hi Terry,
> A solid list of experiments has determined that human babies
> (less than 1 year old - crawling stage) will not crawl - on a
> solid glass floor - out over a drop underneath that glass floor.
>
> They will however, if tempted or otherwise cajoled - agree to
> back out over the drop. But as soon as that `drop' becomes
> visible they immediately retreat to the non-drop portion of their
> environment.
>
> It seems we have a memory which says `height is dangerous' -
> especially if you're _not_ in control.
>
> cheers
>
> Ray D
>
> Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If
> not wholly
> learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this experiment has
> included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?
>
> Terry
>
>
Well, these experiments are not true for all babies, both my daughters have
repeatedly tried (and sometimes succeeded in) crawling of edges of all
kinds. No permanent harm but I make sure that ALL possible jump-off points
are very well secured since these kamikaze babies has most certainly not
read those studies.
I have though and was rather surprised when they started flinging themselves
of edges...
Other children I know are more careful and one have never-ever required any
sort of gate or protection since he is very careful and have as far as I
know never fallen off anything.
Darwin days I suppose, I hope that my daredevil cuties gain something more
than just bumps and sprains from being so physically forward as they are.

/henrik

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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jun  7 23:08:32 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: LUDDISM: Help keep 'neo-luddism' wikipage up
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050607230832.77736.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>

Firebug has a valid point: the page *as currently written* tends to
violate Wikipedia's purpose.

We're not going to win the fight against our enemies by sinking to
their level.  We're trying to prove their ways are wrong; we can't do
that by resorting to their ways ourselves.  Wikipedia is not our tool
first and foremost; it has rules and objectives of its own.  When we
use it, we should play by its rules - and in this case, that includes
openly acknowledging that "neo-luddite" is a label no one applies to
themselves.

Perhaps if you could update the page to detail what
exactly neo-luddites want, and the logical consequences (with labels
like "in the opinion of their detractors", to avoid making statements
of fact except where there really is logical proof).  I've added the
following text as an example:

> Those who are called neo-luddites tend to call themselves greens,
> conservatives, or other labels, but with an anti-technology focus.
> This causes friction with pro-tech greens and others, who sometimes
> cite the negative environmental consequences of neo-luddites' goals
> to challenge their right to call themselves "green".

This is all true and NPOV, as Wikipedia wants.  It also states one of
the main reasons why they are the bad guys: they say they want to help
the environment, but (as pointed out by their opponents) they actually
wind up harming it.

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> A political vandal and wiki-stalker by the handle "Firebug" is trying
> to get this wike page delted and they've removed the list of
> prominent
> neo-luddites. If you folks have not already, please go to this page,
> see the link to the deletion vote, and help with maintaining and
> protecting this information. Folks from infoshop.org are behind
> trying
> to delete this information from public notice.
> 
> --- mike99 <mike99 at lascruces.com> wrote:
> 
> > I've added a bit to the Right-wing Neo-Luddism section concerning
> the
> > Discovery Institute.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Michael LaTorra
> > 
> > mike99 at lascruces.com
> > mlatorra at nmsu.edu
> > 
> > "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with
> open
> > eyes
> > towards slavery."
> > -- Jacob Bronowski
> > 
> > "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
> > -- Eugen Leitl
> > 
> > Member:
> > Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association:
> > www.transhumanism.org
> > Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
> > http://ieet.org/
> > Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
> > Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
> > Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
> > President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  8 04:13:09 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:13:09 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050607222552.38707.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506080413.j584DBR08579@tick.javien.com>



Some yahoo tied up traffic for hours in LA this morning
by leading the cops on a OJ-esque low speed car chase
and holding a gun to his own head.  They had to close
Interstate 10, a main artery.  The economic damage done
by this stunt is difficult to even estimate.

We know of the big-time terrorists, Bin Ladin, Tim McVeigh
et.al.  Do let us hope the terrorists never realize that
they could tone down the attacks and compensate with
larger numbers.  They could do things that don't slay
or injure anyone, or even cause actual property damage, 
but rather merely block traffic, reducing the productivity
of a society.  They could feign remorse over a lost lover,
for instance and the courts would almost hafta just let them 
go, temporary insanity.

If newspeak for "terror" is "double plus fear," then 
they would go for double minus fear.  They would need 
to come up with a name other than terrorist.  Anxietist?  
Inconveniencist?  Oy.

spike

    
 



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  8 04:23:27 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:23:27 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <200506080413.j584DBR08579@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506080413.j584DBR08579@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <626DDC10-D89D-44AB-A2D2-144FAA39DA48@mac.com>


On Jun 7, 2005, at 9:13 PM, spike wrote:

>
>
> Some yahoo tied up traffic for hours in LA this morning
> by leading the cops on a OJ-esque low speed car chase
> and holding a gun to his own head.  They had to close
> Interstate 10, a main artery.  The economic damage done
> by this stunt is difficult to even estimate.

I wonder why they didn't deploy the little EMP (or is it microwave)  
gun that stops modern cars dead.  They could then deal with the  
threatened suicide without tying up all that traffic and so much impact.

- samantha


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 05:11:04 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <200506080413.j584DBR08579@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050608051104.53443.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> Some yahoo tied up traffic for hours in LA this
> morning
> by leading the cops on a OJ-esque low speed car
> chase
> and holding a gun to his own head.  They had to
> close
> Interstate 10, a main artery.  The economic damage
> done
> by this stunt is difficult to even estimate.
> 
> We know of the big-time terrorists, Bin Ladin, Tim
> McVeigh
> et.al.  Do let us hope the terrorists never realize
> that
> they could tone down the attacks and compensate with
> larger numbers.  They could do things that don't
> slay
> or injure anyone, or even cause actual property
> damage, 
> but rather merely block traffic, reducing the
> productivity
> of a society.  They could feign remorse over a lost
> lover,
> for instance and the courts would almost hafta just
> let them 
> go, temporary insanity.
> 
> If newspeak for "terror" is "double plus fear," then
> 
> they would go for double minus fear.  They would
> need 
> to come up with a name other than terrorist. 
> Anxietist?  
> Inconveniencist?  Oy.

Actually if my interpretation of certain clauses in
the USA Patriot Act is correct then whistle blowers,
hackers, and others who impede commerce in some
fashion can now be classified as terrorists. So yes,
if the feds wanted to push it, that guy could be
called a terrorist.



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From pgptag at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 08:46:13 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:13 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Denying nature
Message-ID: <470a3c52050608014672f5fad2@mail.gmail.com>

Another attack on transhumanism from
SFGate.com<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/06/08/cstillwell.DTL>-
The
debate over embryonic stem cell research in the United States rages on. Also 
known as therapeutic cloning<http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4667>, 
the process entails extracting stem cells from human embryos typically left 
over from in-vitro fertilization procedures at fertility clinics. Embryonic 
stem cells <http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics3.asp> have the 
ability to duplicate cells found throughout the human body, thereby leading 
researchers to believe that treatments for diseases and spinal cord injuries 
can be found through such research. Seeing as the destruction of human 
embryos is involved, the issue is attracting a fair amount of controversy, 
at both statewide and national
levels<http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/genetics/embfet.htm>
...
Disease and illness will always beset humans because we are mortal beings. 
At the end of our lives lies the inevitability of death. To try to avoid 
this fate is to deny the cycle of life, to deny nature itself. In fact, 
there are those who actively seek such a state. They subscribe to a 
philosophy called
transhumanism<http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/index>,
or "the doctrine that we can and should become more than
human<http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Intro/definitions.html>"
through the use of science. But should we really be so eager to shed our 
humanity? Rather than "more than human," we could very well end up less so.
Of course the author does not provide any explanation of what she means by 
the last sentence quoted, nor of why "deny nature itself" is something bad. 
The development of our civilization has been based on refusing to meekly 
accept natural limits. This attitude led to medicine, hygiene, transport, 
education, and communications. Let's not go back to the stone age as Ms. 
Stillwell wishes.
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From amara at amara.com  Wed Jun  8 10:31:12 2005
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:31:12 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Consciences of their own (or not) (was: Famous
 author self destructs blah blah blah)
Message-ID: <p06210200becc77bf235f@[150.146.134.133]>

Brett Paatsch:
>A lot of urban legends likely have built up around the Galileo story,
>and I am interested in what the real story was, but for present
>purposes, not all that much.

When you are ready, something I've posted before:

HEAVEN'S OBSERVER
Interview by Hazel Muir from New Scientist
http://www.lyon.edu/projects/marsbugs/2000/20000331.txt

And this book:

Galileo and the Scientific Revolution
by Laura Fermi and Gilberto Bernardini

>For present purposes the only point I
>really wanted to make is that individuals including individuals with
>religious or faith based world views that have consciences of their
>own and are willing to exercise them can choose to look through the
>available equipment be it a telescope or a microscope of whatever if
>they so choose.

Here is an example.

(Hint, no religion is taught, only astrophysics)

-------------------------------------------------------------------


http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VOSS2005.html

The Vatican Observatory Summer School 2005

Observational Astronomy and Astrophysics
12 June to 8 July 2005,
Castel Gandolfo, Rome, Italy

Jonathan I. Lunine (Chair)	University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona
Christopher J. Corbally, S.J. (Dean)	Vatican Observatory
George V. Coyne, S.J. (Director)	Vatican Observatory
John Baross	University of Washington, Seattle, Washington
Chris D. Impey	Steward Observatory, University of Arizona
Woodruff T. Sullivan	University of Washington, Seattle, Washington
Neville J. Woolf	Steward Observatory, University of Arizona
The regular faculty will be assisted by other senior scientists in
residence.

   The Vatican Observatory is pleased to announce the 2005 Summer
 School in Observational Astronomy and Astrophysics, on
 Astrobiology: The Search for our Origins and Life Elsewhere. Two
 lectures will be given each morning, with evening seminars by the
 Vatican staff and visiting astronomers. During the course of the
 school, students will also present a short paper on their research
 or the research of their home institution. Other activities will
 include laboratory exercises, use of the Observatory computers for
 data reduction and image processing, and use of astronomical
 databases.

 There will also be opportunities for observations with on-site 40
 cm refractor and 60 cm reflector telescopes. Field trips to visit
 sites of historical interest to astronomy will be included. In
 addition to the principal topics presented by the invited faculty,
 students will have the opportunity to discuss their own research
 with members of the faculty and with the observatory staff. No
 formal course credits will be given, but certification of
 satisfactory completion of the course will be supplied.

 Basic tour of the solar system and known extrasolar planets; scale
 of the cosmos; introduction to chemistry and chemical bonding;
 introduction to spectroscopy from the UV through the radio; the
 discovery of past salty seas on Mars; the discovery of an ocean
 under Jupiter=s moon Europa; the search for pre-biotic molecules on
 Titan; search for life on Mars and Europa; bioethics and planetary
 protection; the microwave background and models for the Big Bang;
 origin of the elements; search for extrasolar habitable planets
 with optical telescopes; search for extraterrestrial civilizations
 with radio telescopes; introduction to biology for astronomers;
 models of the origin of life; origin of metabolisms; extremophiles;
 the tree of life; evolution of life and Earth=s climate through
 time; the future of life on and off the Earth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is _NOT_ an example:


http://www.comitatoscienzaevita.it/

that is, the "Committee of Science and Life", but I prefer to call
them the "Committee of Decay and Death". I received an analog-spam
brochure from them in my postal box last week, and they have large
glossy posters now hanging in my town. Huge sums of money is spent
to blanket Italy with these advertisements.

You will find pink pictures of pregnant mothers and babies and
sterile test tubes. You will find 'scientific' reports about
assisted reproductive technology that doesn't work and that puts
the future of mankind in danger.

An you will find their opinion on the upcoming ART laws Referendum
in Italy this week. That is, you will read 'NO, Don't vote', and to
make sure that you do not, they will not list the date of the
Referendum vote.

(date: 12-13 June: http://www.comitatoreferendum.it/xml/hp.asp)

And *who*, you ask, is funding the "Committee of Science and Life?"

The richest country in the world, that is: the Vatican.

Amara
-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"Once in a great while the temptation to be REALLY DIRTY is just
irresistible." -- W. H. Press, S. A. Teukolsky, W. T. Vetterling
& B. P. Flannery


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun  8 11:41:14 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:41:14 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk><04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc><f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
Message-ID: <001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Charlie Stross wrote:

> On 6 Jun 2005, at 05:13, Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>>> The sub-text of the entire ?human life begins at 10^6 cells/^10^3/1 
>>> cell? debate is that a *potential* life is worth as much, if not more, 
>>> than the *actual* life of the woman who is expected by the 
>>> anti-abortion lobby to go through a somewhat hazardous medical 
>>> condition (which, in the wild, has a 5-10% fatality rate) and then -- 
>>>  this is implicit in the whole mess -- spend the next twenty years of 
>>> life surrendering their potential for self-actualization to that other 
>>> formerly potential person.
>>
>> That sentence is too hard for me to parse. I think you are strawmanning
>> the views of those who I disagree with as well but I can't tell.
>
> Um, I was taking you initially for one of the "every sperm is sacred (and 
> you women had better look after them)" crowd. Not having run into you on 
> the net before.

You missed me by 180 degrees. 'Every sperm is sacred' is my favorite
Python song.

We have run into each other on the net before. It was on this list. I
remembered you favourably as the person that had once ran a version
of a prediction market at the Foresight Institute. I think you said it was
closed down when a new director wasn't sure how to account for it.

Perhaps I didn't recognize you as a science fiction writer because I
don't read a lot of science fiction. I've been generally disappointed
with science fiction perhaps because I like science and the plot lines
seem to date so quickly.

>>> As a non-American who lives in a country where at the last poll just 
>>> short of 90% of the population approved of abortion being available on 
>>> demand, let me say that I think this discussion would be ludicrous if 
>>> it wasn?t evil.
>>
>> So what are you a Canadian living in the US or what?
>
> British, living in the UK. (In the People's Republic of Scotland, to be 
> precise.)

An interesting part of the world. Therapeutic cloning and Ian Wilmut,
sportsbetting licensing with Betfair, and the question of what to do
about the EU constitution following the French and the Dutch votes.

I was interested in the stuff about Goldsmith and the legality (or
otherwise) of the Iraq war and how it played out in the election there
as well. The Brits seemed to be a lot more interested in whether the
invasion was legal than were Australians or those in the US.

> ...
>> Its ironic, but when you posted to the list recently you said that you
>> were irked I think that there was so much ranting going on. But now
>> I am struggling to understand what points you are trying to make
>> because you seem to have decided to rant along with us.
>>
>> When you use words like evil I don't know if you are parodying the
>> US President or if you actually really think in such terms yourself.
>
> See "British", above, and consider the possibility that a Manichean view 
> of the world ain't part of my outlook. Britain and the US are two nations 
> divided by a linguistic sar-chasm.

:-)

> (Although if I was going to try and bolt together a post-religious 
> rationalist ethical framework based on game theory with a side-order of 
> utilitarianism, I think I'd probably retain the word "evil" to describe 
> ideologies or beliefs that amount to repeatedly smacking yourself in the 
> face with a two-by-four. And the Christian fundamentalists are a good fit 
> for that pattern of behaviour.)

If you ever do decide to try your hand at bolting together a post-religious
rationalist ethical framework based on game theory and are looking for
people to kick it around with, I'd be another with an interest in your
hobby.

Brett Paatsch 




From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun  8 12:12:19 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:12:19 +1000
Subject: Mistaken identiy Fw: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs
	inpublic!Filmateleven.
Message-ID: <006d01c56c23$51c30e40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Sorry Charlie, I've still managed to get you mixed up. This time with Chris 
Hibbert.

Brett Paatsch 




From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Wed Jun  8 15:27:09 2005
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:27:09 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] NEW TRANSHUMANIST WEB PAGE: www.posthumano.net
In-Reply-To: <20050607223755.84467.qmail@web32803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050607223755.84467.qmail@web32803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <769d7a6a4e249305ee23f8dd9c3841fb@bonfireproductions.com>



Hi Jose,

Looks like you are off to a great start - be sure to check out the site 
on multiple-browsers and platforms!

I find that phpNuke is a lot more forgiving than Mambo, but they are 
both pretty solid.


]3



On Jun 7, 2005, at 6:37 PM, Jose Cordeiro wrote:

> Dear friends,
> ?
> ??? In a great transhumanist, transdisciplinary?and transcountry 
> effort, you can see the preliminary design of a new transhumanist web 
> page mostly?in Spanish:
> ?
> www.posthumano.net
> ?
> ???? Please, send us your comments:
> ?
> Carlos Parra: gerenciadivulgar at yahoo.com
> Walter Farah: walterfarah at yahoo.com
> Juan Arbelaez: juanarbelaezp at hotmail.com
> Jose Cordeiro: jose at cordeiro.org
> ?
> ???? Transhumanistically yours,
>
>
>
> La vie est belle!
>
> Yos? (www.cordeiro.org)
>
> Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, 
> Multiverse_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 16:25:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <200506080413.j584DBR08579@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050608162558.43443.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote: 
> 
> Some yahoo tied up traffic for hours in LA this morning
> by leading the cops on a OJ-esque low speed car chase
> and holding a gun to his own head.  They had to close
> Interstate 10, a main artery.  The economic damage done
> by this stunt is difficult to even estimate.
> 
> We know of the big-time terrorists, Bin Ladin, Tim McVeigh
> et.al.  Do let us hope the terrorists never realize that
> they could tone down the attacks and compensate with
> larger numbers.  They could do things that don't slay
> or injure anyone, or even cause actual property damage, 
> but rather merely block traffic, reducing the productivity
> of a society.  They could feign remorse over a lost lover,
> for instance and the courts would almost hafta just let them 
> go, temporary insanity.
> 
> If newspeak for "terror" is "double plus fear," then 
> they would go for double minus fear.  They would need 
> to come up with a name other than terrorist.  Anxietist?  
> Inconveniencist?  Oy.

Vey. How about just "asshole"? Actually, as the interstate highways are
channels of commerce, and there are, and have been for a long time,
federal regs against the blockading of channels of commerce. It is
generally considered an act of war.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun  8 16:25:44 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> I wonder why they didn't deploy the little EMP (or is it microwave)  
> gun that stops modern cars dead.  They could then deal with the  
> threatened suicide without tying up all that traffic and so much
> impact.

Because, much as they have been discussed and are under development,
there aren't any field-ready EMP guns yet.  Not even for the military
(which accepts reliability as low as the Patriot anti-missile system),
and certainly not for law enforcement.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 16:36:20 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050608163620.92134.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Charlie wrote:
> >
> > Urban legends don?t aid the debate. Galileo was to a very large
> > extent *protected* by the then Pope, who was a friend of his;
> > what got him into trouble was court politics, aggravated by his
> > inability to keep his mouth shut at the right time. You will note
> > that Galileo was *not* burned at the stake despite this being a
> > fairly common outcome for  heretics at the time ... and that the
> > reason for the draconian response  to heresy was that it had
> > political implications: religious doctrine  was then the 
> > accepted way of understanding how the world works, and questioning
> > its veracity raised implications for the way state policy was
> > formed. That?s *never* a safe or easy thing to do; we can see it
> >  today in the way the Bush administration treats science funding
> > in  areas that don?t appear to support their preconceptions.

Or in the way the UN, EU, and the Club of Rome is trying to shove
Global Warming and Peak Oil down everyone's throats with lies about the
number and types of scientists signing off on their side of reality.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 16:39:36 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050608163936.19988.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> > I wonder why they didn't deploy the little EMP (or is it microwave)
> > gun that stops modern cars dead.  They could then deal with the  
> > threatened suicide without tying up all that traffic and so much
> > impact.
> 
> Because, much as they have been discussed and are under development,
> there aren't any field-ready EMP guns yet.  Not even for the military
> (which accepts reliability as low as the Patriot anti-missile
> system), and certainly not for law enforcement.

Actually, HERF and EMP guns have been demonstrated in the past and are
quite capable. The problem is the same morons who live in paranoid fear
of power lines and wall outlets get OSHA to kill the funding, claiming
that killing a cars circuits would create an obstacle to traffic,
causing greater risk of accidents, and that bombarding the occupants
with high energy EM energy is a health hazard...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun  8 17:14:32 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:14:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050608171432.60944.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> > Because, much as they have been discussed and are under
> development,
> > there aren't any field-ready EMP guns yet.  Not even for the
> military
> > (which accepts reliability as low as the Patriot anti-missile
> > system), and certainly not for law enforcement.
> 
> Actually, HERF and EMP guns have been demonstrated in the past and
> are
> quite capable. The problem is the same morons who live in paranoid
> fear
> of power lines and wall outlets get OSHA to kill the funding,
> claiming
> that killing a cars circuits would create an obstacle to traffic,
> causing greater risk of accidents, and that bombarding the occupants
> with high energy EM energy is a health hazard...

It's debatable (and a debate I'd rather not get into) whether the
demonstrations were indeed effective.  The most I've personally heard
of is that a HERF gun managed to make a car run roughly from about 10
yards away; even the video cameras running inside the car to record
things were unaffected.

Regardless of whether it's effectiveness or just killed funding (which
wouldn't affect private, no-government-money, startup-secret
development: OSHA can't regulate what it doesn't know about, and small
companies - being smaller groups of people - can sometimes keep secrets
better than most government organizations), the fact remains that there
is no factory out there that's currently producing EMP guns, nor has
there ever been one, ergo EMP guns are not currently available to the
police.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun  8 17:25:32 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050608172532.18660.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Vey. How about just "asshole"? Actually, as the interstate highways
> are
> channels of commerce, and there are, and have been for a long time,
> federal regs against the blockading of channels of commerce. It is
> generally considered an act of war.

Is there a specific, written source for that?  For example, say two
neighboring states (say, California and Nevada) allowed some substance
(drugs, stem cells, certain advanced-tech machines, whatever) to be
freely and openly possessed by their citizens in a way that the feds
had surrendered jurisdiction over, but where the feds did make it a
crime to transport it over state lines.  Possession and transport would
not be a crime on either side of the line, so the states might object
to feds' attempt to regulate it at their mutual border (even if they
did not protest enforcement at other borders, if the other states were
less permissive on this issue).  What part of the legal code would
allow the states to treat enforcement (and the necessary blockade or
delay of traffic) as an act of war by the federal government upon the
two states?


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 17:27:57 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:27:57 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05060810274207bbd2@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/8/05, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Because, much as they have been discussed and are under development,
> there aren't any field-ready EMP guns yet.  Not even for the military
> (which accepts reliability as low as the Patriot anti-missile system),
> and certainly not for law enforcement.

And why not?
Because an EMP pulse would fry any electronics in the vicinity,
including pacemakers.
However, I have read that shielding pacemakers and other devices would
not be too difficult, but they would all have to be protected before
deployment.
Also, the cops would have to shield their own electronics first.
So if the cops can get shielded cars, you can bet the crooks will get them also.

The public and press also see a difference between a runaway driver
causing damage and the police causing damage when they try to stop
him.

So EMP guns would be expensive, heavy, dangerous to bystanders and
after a time pretty well useless for stopping criminals.

BillK


From charlie at antipope.org  Wed Jun  8 17:42:46 2005
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:42:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk><04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc><f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>


On 8 Jun 2005, at 12:41, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> You missed me by 180 degrees. 'Every sperm is sacred' is my favorite
> Python song.

OK ...

> We have run into each other on the net before. It was on this list. I
> remembered you favourably as the person that had once ran a version
> of a prediction market at the Foresight Institute. I think you said it 
> was
> closed down when a new director wasn't sure how to account for it.

:-)

You mis-remember me then, because I have *never* had anything to do 
with the Foresight Institute *or* prediction markets.

> Perhaps I didn't recognize you as a science fiction writer because I
> don't read a lot of science fiction.

'S'okay. You'd be astonished how few books any of us sell, or how few 
people have read them.
...

So what are you a Canadian living in the US or what?
>>
>> British, living in the UK. (In the People's Republic of Scotland, to 
>> be precise.)
>
> An interesting part of the world. Therapeutic cloning and Ian Wilmut,
> sportsbetting licensing with Betfair, and the question of what to do
> about the EU constitution following the French and the Dutch votes.

It gets better. According to Monday's Herald, 39.5% of the population 
are hard atheists (no religion, period), and of the rest, only 60% 
believe in God -- the rest just have a numinous vague sense of 
something out there. The proportion attending church on a regular basis 
-- monthly or more often -- is down around 10%.

That's partly why I find the whole abortion thing so weird. It's like 
finding yourself on a party line with the Ayatollahs of Qom.


-- Charlie



From charlie at antipope.org  Wed Jun  8 17:45:11 2005
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:45:11 +0100
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <20050608163620.92134.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608163620.92134.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f757b1d9454c8b82fb17f7d65a88ea0c@antipope.org>


On 8 Jun 2005, at 17:36, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> Or in the way the UN, EU, and the Club of Rome is trying to shove
> Global Warming and Peak Oil down everyone's throats with lies about the
> number and types of scientists signing off on their side of reality.
>
> Mike Lorrey

FX: Blinks slowly. Looks at pile of copies of New Scientist to his 
left. Looks at open email window to his right. Scratches head.

Okay, consider yourself scorefiled -100, along with the young earth 
creationists and the flat earth society. Nothing personal; it's just 
that life's too short to waste time arguing with cranks.


-- Charlie



From charlie at antipope.org  Wed Jun  8 18:03:46 2005
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:03:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk><04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc><f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>


On 8 Jun 2005, at 18:42, Charlie Stross wrote:
> It gets better. According to Monday's Herald, 39.5% of the population 
> are hard atheists (no religion, period), and of the rest, only 60% 
> believe in God -- the rest just have a numinous vague sense of 
> something out there. The proportion attending church on a regular 
> basis -- monthly or more often -- is down around 10%.

Clarification, the "60% believe in God" applies to the 60% of the 
population who do not expressly deny having any religion. Meaning it's 
more like 40% of the total who believe in God at all.

Politicians who come on heavy with the prayer thing in Scotland 
actually *lose* votes because ordinary people think they're nutters.


-- Charlie



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun  8 18:27:13 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:27:13 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk><04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc><f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
	<1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <42A73881.8050302@humanenhancement.com>

Hmmm... I wonder how tough it is to emigrate...

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 5/29/05)

Charlie Stross wrote:

>
> On 8 Jun 2005, at 18:42, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
>> It gets better. According to Monday's Herald, 39.5% of the population 
>> are hard atheists (no religion, period), and of the rest, only 60% 
>> believe in God -- the rest just have a numinous vague sense of 
>> something out there. The proportion attending church on a regular 
>> basis -- monthly or more often -- is down around 10%.
>
>
> Clarification, the "60% believe in God" applies to the 60% of the 
> population who do not expressly deny having any religion. Meaning it's 
> more like 40% of the total who believe in God at all.
>
> Politicians who come on heavy with the prayer thing in Scotland 
> actually *lose* votes because ordinary people think they're nutters.
>
>
> -- Charlie
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 18:41:16 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:41:16 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <42A73881.8050302@humanenhancement.com>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
	<1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>
	<42A73881.8050302@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0506081141c9e222a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/8/05, Joseph Bloch wrote:
> Hmmm... I wonder how tough it is to emigrate...
>

:)  Ever wonder why you find Scottish people and their descendents all
over the world?

There are minuses as well as pluses in every country.

BillK


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  8 19:14:36 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:14:36 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608162544.69047.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8AFC35DA-0262-4F39-A2F6-22A1A33E693D@mac.com>


On Jun 8, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder why they didn't deploy the little EMP (or is it microwave)
>> gun that stops modern cars dead.  They could then deal with the
>> threatened suicide without tying up all that traffic and so much
>> impact.
>>
>
> Because, much as they have been discussed and are under development,
> there aren't any field-ready EMP guns yet.  Not even for the military
> (which accepts reliability as low as the Patriot anti-missile system),
> and certainly not for law enforcement.

Heck.  It is a DIY minor project to get something that works.

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  8 19:21:06 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:21:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <B92866BF-A5C4-4197-8FD0-195510360020@mac.com>


On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:42 AM, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
> It gets better. According to Monday's Herald, 39.5% of the  
> population are hard atheists (no religion, period), and of the  
> rest, only 60% believe in God -- the rest just have a numinous  
> vague sense of something out there. The proportion attending church  
> on a regular basis -- monthly or more often -- is down around 10%.
>
> That's partly why I find the whole abortion thing so weird. It's  
> like finding yourself on a party line with the Ayatollahs of Qom.
>

Sounds better all the time except for reports from some friends of  
mine that they nearly froze to death there.    I am tired of  
Taxifornia but I would miss the mild climate.


From charlie at antipope.org  Wed Jun  8 19:29:09 2005
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:29:09 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author exposes self in public!
Message-ID: <a2e1b59056862a6d1b88c9b99033de72@antipope.org>

Hopefully (for reasons that will be obvious once you visit the site) 
this isn't a 100% commercial and unwelcome announcement ...

I've just opened www.accelerando.org. This is the official website of 
the SF novel about the Singularity that's due out on July 1st. Various 
members of this list have contributed over the past five years while 
I've been writing it, and membership of the ancestral version of this 
list (from 1991 onwards) was instrumental in making me write it, so I 
figure it may  be of interest to some of you.

(For those who haven't heard of it: "Accelerando" is a fix-up of the 
series of stories that ran in Asimov's SF over the past few years. Four 
Hugo nominations, one Nebula nomination, two BSFA, two Sturgeon, and a 
Seiun award nomination later,  it's ready for prime time. And the 
entire text of the novel will be available for download under a 
[restrictive] CC license just as soon as I finish knocking it into 
shape.)


-- Charlie 



From simon at betterhumans.com  Wed Jun  8 19:29:31 2005
From: simon at betterhumans.com (Simon Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:29:31 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Win a copy of Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough to
	Live Forever
In-Reply-To: <B92866BF-A5C4-4197-8FD0-195510360020@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c56c60$6848aa20$6401a8c0@SNOTEBOOK>

Hi All,

I just wanted to let everyone know that we have four copies of Fantastic
Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever to give away.

We're holding a life extension blog contest for the books. Details are
available here:
http://www.betterhumans.com/Forums/tabid/55/forumid/7/postid/248/view/to
pic/Default.aspx. 

Writing about life extension shouldn't be a big challenge for people on
this list, so why not give it a shot? 

Best,
Simon

Simon Smith   
Editor-in-chief, Betterhumans   
Science and technology journalist
www.betterhumans.com/members/simon/default.aspx 

e:// simon at betterhumans.com 
p:// 416.690.0679	 

BETTERHUMANS | CREATE THE FUTURET
Join our community of informed forward thinkers today!
www.betterhumans.com 
 




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun  8 19:31:32 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <8AFC35DA-0262-4F39-A2F6-22A1A33E693D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050608193132.57601.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Heck.  It is a DIY minor project to get something that works.

To some degree.  The same could be said of railguns and coilguns - for
which there appear to be at least kits for sale, according to a quick
google.  Another quick google fails to find even this level of
availablility for EMP guns, and certainly no pre-assembled and
warrantied EMP guns.

Police are not, for the most part, weaponsmiths, even if they know how
to maintain their service equipment.  If a thing can not be purchased
by their department, nor earned through routine duty (such as trust of
the areas a cop patrols), then very few if any police officers will
have it available for on-duty use.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun  8 19:33:52 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:33:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Getting away from the Ayatollahs of Qom
In-Reply-To: <B92866BF-A5C4-4197-8FD0-195510360020@mac.com>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
	<B92866BF-A5C4-4197-8FD0-195510360020@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608142745.01e60c60@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


>>
>>That's partly why I find the whole abortion thing so weird. It's
>>like finding yourself on a party line with the Ayatollahs of Qom.
>
>Sounds better all the time except for reports from some friends of
>mine that they nearly froze to death there.    I am tired of
>Taxifornia but I would miss the mild climate.

Sydney. Melbourne. Adelaide. Perth. A conservative government but a fairly 
sceptical community attitude to godbotherers. Excellent standard of living 
and food. Good health care. Problems with El Ni?o, drought, bushfires, but 
California's getting that way too, and Australia isn't going to swallow 
your whole city one day. Of course, someone else in the region might decide 
they'd like the real estate.

Damien Broderick 



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun  8 20:20:59 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:20:59 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Win a copy of Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough
	toLive Forever
Message-ID: <130420-22005638202059507@M2W070.mail2web.com>

Great idea Simon!  
http://www.betterhumans.com/Forums/tabid/55/forumid/7/postid/248/view/to
pic/Default.aspx

Natasha



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Simon Smith simon at betterhumans.com
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:29:31 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: [extropy-chat] Win a copy of Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough
toLive Forever


Hi All,

I just wanted to let everyone know that we have four copies of Fantastic
Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever to give away.

We're holding a life extension blog contest for the books. Details are
available here:
. 

Writing about life extension shouldn't be a big challenge for people on
this list, so why not give it a shot? 

Best,
Simon

Simon Smith   
Editor-in-chief, Betterhumans   
Science and technology journalist
www.betterhumans.com/members/simon/default.aspx 

e:// simon at betterhumans.com 
p:// 416.690.0679	 

BETTERHUMANS | CREATE THE FUTURET
Join our community of informed forward thinkers today!
www.betterhumans.com 
 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Wed Jun  8 20:33:32 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:33:32 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Slashdot submission: Study links genetic
	diseases to intelligence
In-Reply-To: <e88b73ce050606014345fbffa0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e88b73ce050606014345fbffa0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce0506081333425c3bd4@mail.gmail.com>

Huzzah, successful submission (this marks my 30th in the past year):

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/08/0110241&tid=191

There was an interesting comment on Cochran's goal of eventually
creating a "smart pill" as an offshoot of this research.

On 6/6/05, Neil Halelamien <neuronexmachina at gmail.com> wrote:
> (I'm planning on submitting the following story to slashdot soon, but
> considering the extreme sensitivity of the topic and slashdotters'
> propensity for going completely nutzoid, I'd appreciate suggestions on
> possible rewordings/additions. Also, what are your thoughts on the
> topic itself and its implications for genetic enhancement of
> intelligence?)
> 
> The Economist, Sun-Sentinel, and FuturePundit report on a
> controversial study by Gregory Cochran and others which proposes a
> link between certain genetic conditions and above-average intelligence
> in Ashkenazi Jews. The 40-page study, published in the Journal of
> Biosocial Science, analyzes data on unusual patterns of genetic
> disease in the ethnic group and relates it to various measures of
> intelligence, such as winning 27% of America's Nobel science prizes
> and having a highly disproportionate rate of IQs over 140. Although
> the intelligence data has traditionally been attributed solely to
> cultural factors, Cochran proposes that due to unusual selection
> pressures between 800 and 1600AD certain genes developed which promote
> intelligence as single copies, but lead to particular diseases when
> somebody inherits two copies. Of particular note are mutations which
> seem to be involved with neuron growth and DNA repair. According to
> Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, "It would be hard to
> overstate how politically incorrect this paper is... [though] it's
> certainly a thorough and well-argued paper, not one that can easily be
> dismissed outright."
> 
> Links from submission:
> http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4032638
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-adiseases03jun03,0,3551969.story
> http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html
> http://harpend.dsl.xmission.com.nyud.net:8090/Documents/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 20:51:48 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050608172532.18660.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050608205148.6160.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Vey. How about just "asshole"? Actually, as the interstate highways
> > are
> > channels of commerce, and there are, and have been for a long time,
> > federal regs against the blockading of channels of commerce. It is
> > generally considered an act of war.
> 
> Is there a specific, written source for that?  For example, say two
> neighboring states (say, California and Nevada) allowed some
> substance
> (drugs, stem cells, certain advanced-tech machines, whatever) to be
> freely and openly possessed by their citizens in a way that the feds
> had surrendered jurisdiction over, but where the feds did make it a
> crime to transport it over state lines.  Possession and transport
> would
> not be a crime on either side of the line, so the states might object
> to feds' attempt to regulate it at their mutual border (even if they
> did not protest enforcement at other borders, if the other states
> were less permissive on this issue). 

Actually, the SCOTUS just ruled against the state interposition
argument wrt the medical marijuana laws passed in the last several
years, ruling that federal authority to regulate interstate commerce
trumps state laws. The term "channels of commerce" is, AFAIKR, in the
Constitution as the responsibility of the federal government. I comes
from the fact that in colonial and early America, there were no real
roads of any distance that one could ship any real quantity of goods
over. River channels were the 'channels of commerce' at the time and
the access that each major coastal city had to the interior via a river
system tended to determine its economic growth. Boston had the Charles
and Merrimack river systems, Portsmouth had the Piscataquah, New York
had the Hudson River (and eventually the Erie Canal), Philadelphia had
two rivers, etc...

After the Roosevelt Administration packed the SCOTUS, that court ruled
that interstate roads funded by the federal government were similar
channels of commerce, and ultimately, since you can drive from anywhere
to anywhere, anywhere you can drive is federal commercial jurisdiction.
Thus the Interstate Highway System was built in the Truman and
Eisenhower era under federal commerce authority.


> What part of the legal code would
> allow the states to treat enforcement (and the necessary blockade or
> delay of traffic) as an act of war by the federal government upon the
> two states?

Ah, now that would be an interesting conundrum. They shouldn't be able
to unless the states are in a state of rebellion (as opposed to lawful
secession, which is an entirely different debate we won't deal with
here). The government's commerce authority is only to regulate, not to
bar interstate commerce. When you bar commerce, there is no more
commerce, and therefore no more authority...

This should be the constitutional check upon fascism here in the US:
when congress overreaches the few powers it is delegated by the people,
it should be held in contempt of constitution by the courts. If an
administration ignores a SCOTUS order limiting its authority, the
administration should be impeached and tried for treason. The courts
today, however, are circumspect when both Congress and the
Administration overreach. "Treason doth never prosper, what is the
reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason!"

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 20:54:28 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in
	public!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <f757b1d9454c8b82fb17f7d65a88ea0c@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <20050608205428.53326.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Charlie, every climatologist I talk to takes great pains to state that
there is no scientific consensus on global warming. Everything you hear
in the media is politics, not science.

--- Charlie Stross <charlie at antipope.org> wrote:

> 
> On 8 Jun 2005, at 17:36, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > Or in the way the UN, EU, and the Club of Rome is trying to shove
> > Global Warming and Peak Oil down everyone's throats with lies about
> the
> > number and types of scientists signing off on their side of
> reality.
> >
> > Mike Lorrey
> 
> FX: Blinks slowly. Looks at pile of copies of New Scientist to his 
> left. Looks at open email window to his right. Scratches head.
> 
> Okay, consider yourself scorefiled -100, along with the young earth 
> creationists and the flat earth society. Nothing personal; it's just 
> that life's too short to waste time arguing with cranks.
> 
> 
> -- Charlie
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun  8 21:28:24 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:28:24 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <20050608205148.6160.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608205148.6160.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <611FD4AF-42B1-4413-BE5C-D7F3475A5D55@mac.com>


On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, the SCOTUS just ruled against the state interposition
> argument wrt the medical marijuana laws passed in the last several
> years, ruling that federal authority to regulate interstate commerce
> trumps state laws. The term "channels of commerce" is, AFAIKR, in the
> Constitution as the responsibility of the federal government. I comes
> from the fact that in colonial and early America, there were no real
> roads of any distance that one could ship any real quantity of goods
> over. River channels were the 'channels of commerce' at the time and
> the access that each major coastal city had to the interior via a  
> river
> system tended to determine its economic growth. Boston had the Charles
> and Merrimack river systems, Portsmouth had the Piscataquah, New York
> had the Hudson River (and eventually the Erie Canal), Philadelphia had
> two rivers, etc...
>

So if the reefer is grown and consumed wholly within a state this  
interstate commerce argument is null and void?

- s



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun  8 21:52:59 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:52:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [META] Re: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050608215259.71934.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

Watch the quote attributions, please.  If you snip out all of someone's
text, please remove the "wrote:" line as well.

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

[none of my text]

> > Actually, the SCOTUS just ruled against the state interposition

[and more of Mike's text]


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  8 23:08:25 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:08:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
Message-ID: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>

Some well meaning friend forwarded this to me.

I am thinking this HAS to be nonsense, but I am not an
astronomer. Amara? Anyone?

-----Original Message-----
From: Cobb, LynJason
[mailto:LynJason.cobb at cbnorcal.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
To: ****Menlo Park -El Camino
Subject: Mars Spectacular!!

Subject: MARS SPECTACULAR!

 Now this looks like it might be fun to catch a look
at?!


The Red Planet is about to be spectacular! This month
and next, Earth is
catching up with Mars in an encounter that will
culminate in the closest
approach between the two planets in recorded history.
The next time Mars
may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way
Jupiter's gravity tugs on
Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be
certain that Mars has
not come this close to Earth in the Last 5,000 years,
but it may be as long
as 60,000 years before it happens again.

The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
comes to within
34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
moon) the brightest
object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
-2.9 and will appear
25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
magnification

By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
to the naked eye. 

Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August
it will rise in the 

east at 10p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m.

By the end of August when the two planets are closest,
Mars will rise at
nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at
12:30a.m. That's pretty
convenient to see something that no human being has
seen in recorded
history. So, mark your calendar at the beginning of
August to see Mars grow
progressively brighter and brighter throughout the
month. Share this with
your children and grandchildren. NO ONE ALIVE TODAY
WILL EVER SEE THIS
AGAIN

 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From hal at finney.org  Wed Jun  8 22:41:48 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Wed,  8 Jun 2005 15:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
Message-ID: <20050608224148.4499857E8C@finney.org>

Of course Mars will never look as large as the full moon to the naked eye!
Not from the earth.  Someone must have added that as a joke.

The rest of the article is wrong as well, it refers to the encounter
in the summer of 2003, which was indeed (slightly) closer than previous
encounters for many thousands of years.  The next close pass will be in
October and November of this year.

Hal


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun  8 23:31:43 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:31:43 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608182723.01ce57c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 04:08 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, AG wrote:

>The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
>comes to within
>34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
>moon) the brightest
>object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
>-2.9 and will appear
>25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
>magnification
>
>By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
>to the naked eye.

Let's think about this for a fraction of a second. At perigee and 
opposition, Mars is said above to be 25.11 arc seconds wide. The Moon's 
apparent width averages 1800 arc seconds in diameter.




From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun  8 23:35:01 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:35:01 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42A780A5.3080800@humanenhancement.com>

Oh, I don't need to be an astronomer to know this is BS...

Joseph

The Avantguardian wrote:

>Some well meaning friend forwarded this to me.
>
>I am thinking this HAS to be nonsense, but I am not an
>astronomer. Amara? Anyone?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cobb, LynJason
>[mailto:LynJason.cobb at cbnorcal.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
>To: ****Menlo Park -El Camino
>Subject: Mars Spectacular!!
>
>Subject: MARS SPECTACULAR!
>
> Now this looks like it might be fun to catch a look
>at?!
>
>
>The Red Planet is about to be spectacular! This month
>and next, Earth is
>catching up with Mars in an encounter that will
>culminate in the closest
>approach between the two planets in recorded history.
>The next time Mars
>may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way
>Jupiter's gravity tugs on
>Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be
>certain that Mars has
>not come this close to Earth in the Last 5,000 years,
>but it may be as long
>as 60,000 years before it happens again.
>
>The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
>comes to within
>34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
>moon) the brightest
>object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
>-2.9 and will appear
>25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
>magnification
>
>By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
>to the naked eye. 
>
>Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August
>it will rise in the 
>
>east at 10p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m.
>
>By the end of August when the two planets are closest,
>Mars will rise at
>nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at
>12:30a.m. That's pretty
>convenient to see something that no human being has
>seen in recorded
>history. So, mark your calendar at the beginning of
>August to see Mars grow
>progressively brighter and brighter throughout the
>month. Share this with
>your children and grandchildren. NO ONE ALIVE TODAY
>WILL EVER SEE THIS
>AGAIN
>
> 
>
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
>"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
>-Bill Watterson
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From jef at jefallbright.net  Wed Jun  8 23:57:35 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:57:35 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608182723.01ce57c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050608182723.01ce57c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42A785EF.7000900@jefallbright.net>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 04:08 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, AG wrote:
>
>> The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
>> comes to within
>> 34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
>> moon) the brightest
>> object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
>> -2.9 and will appear
>> 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
>> magnification
>>
>> By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
>> to the naked eye.
>
>
> Let's think about this for a fraction of a second. At perigee and 
> opposition, Mars is said above to be 25.11 arc seconds wide. The 
> Moon's apparent width averages 1800 arc seconds in diameter.
>
I saw this about a week ago and understood it to mean that *with a 
modest 75-power magnification*, Mars would look as large as the full 
moon to the naked eye.

Makes sense?

- Jef


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 00:02:12 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] fanatic anxietist
In-Reply-To: <611FD4AF-42B1-4413-BE5C-D7F3475A5D55@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050609000212.38534.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > 
> So if the reefer is grown and consumed wholly within a state this  
> interstate commerce argument is null and void?

That would be a really good argument to make if and when SCOTUS rules
on US v Stewart, which is the 9th circuit ruling that let a guy keep
his homemade machine gun. If you can keep your homemade machine gun,
you ought to be able to keep your homegrown pot too.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 00:05:59 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <42A785EF.7000900@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <20050609000559.86713.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:

> Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> > At 04:08 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, AG wrote:
> >
> >> The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
> >> comes to within
> >> 34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
> >> moon) the brightest
> >> object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
> >> -2.9 and will appear
> >> 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
> >> magnification
> >>
> >> By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
> >> to the naked eye.
> >
> >
> > Let's think about this for a fraction of a second. At perigee and 
> > opposition, Mars is said above to be 25.11 arc seconds wide. The 
> > Moon's apparent width averages 1800 arc seconds in diameter.
> >
> I saw this about a week ago and understood it to mean that *with a 
> modest 75-power magnification*, Mars would look as large as the full 
> moon to the naked eye.
> 
> Makes sense?

Yeah, that sounds logical. Time to get out your specs to go looking for canals...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun  9 00:11:51 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:11:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <42A785EF.7000900@jefallbright.net>
References: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050608182723.01ce57c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42A785EF.7000900@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608190922.01daac30@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 04:57 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, Jef wrote:

>understood it to mean that *with a modest 75-power magnification*, Mars 
>would look as large as the full moon to the naked eye.
>Makes sense?

Yep. Terrible original sentence and formatting, though. And as Hal pointed 
out, it applied to 2003.

Damien Broderick 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jun  9 01:56:50 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:56:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Current Problems With WTA and TV05
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050608203232.03062100@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Friends - transhumanists and other futurists,

Many of us are members of WTA and care about its success.  While we have 
not always had smooth sailing with WTA due to  the lack of credit given to 
transhumanism's philosophical author Max More, the erroneous political 
positioning ExI, and the lack of acknowledgement and respect of ExI as 
being the spearheading transhumanist organization who introduced 
transhumanism to the world; putting all this aside, we need to be 
supportive for a positive resolve to the current problems within the 
structure of WTA.

WTA has made beneficial contributions to transhumanism over the past 
years.  James Hughes has worked hard along with Nick Bostrom and other 
Directors of WTA.  Our goals for the future need the support and joint 
efforts of organizations such as WTA.  It has always been my hope that WTA 
would be a complimentary and collaborative organization of ExI and that we 
could work together to  create the future.  I still hold onto this 
hope.  It is also my hope that we can develop a game plan where all 
transhumanist organizations have a place and that we get smart about 
working together more efficiently, effectively and successfully. As such, 
the stakes are high and so are the returns.

Today, WTA is undergoing difficulties between some of its Board members 
which affects the upcoming TV05 conference in Venezuela.  The dispute is 
between the conference Chair Jose Cordeiro and WTA's Executive Director 
James Hughes.

Rather than fuel the fire of this current problem, let us try to encourage 
peace between them and a fair and equitable resolution to the problems.

If you have any concerns or questions, please feel free to discussion them 
openly or privately, but please let us work toward resolution and do our 
very best to set an example of how society, in all its differences, can 
manage to be iron out the kinks.

Our little corner of the world is a nano-scale society full of people with 
similar values and dreams about a future that we can thrive in.  If we 
cannot resolve our conflicts here, how can we expect to set an example and 
teach the rest of the world about a future full of potential for humanity 
and transhumanity.

Let's give our support to TV05  and BE THERE to move transhumanism forward 
into the future.

My best to all,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
[_______________________________________________
President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org
[_____________________________________________________
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness..." Anne Herbet

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From ken at javien.com  Thu Jun  9 02:20:53 2005
From: ken at javien.com (Ken Kittlitz)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:20:53 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
References: <001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk>
	<04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>
	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>
	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050608201711.04a7c4b0@127.0.0.1>

At 06:42 PM 6/8/2005 +0100, Charlie Stross wrote:

>On 8 Jun 2005, at 12:41, Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>>We have run into each other on the net before. It was on this list. I
>>remembered you favourably as the person that had once ran a version
>>of a prediction market at the Foresight Institute. I think you said it was
>>closed down when a new director wasn't sure how to account for it.
>
>:-)
>
>You mis-remember me then, because I have *never* had anything to do with 
>the Foresight Institute *or* prediction markets.

Myself, Chris Hibbert and Robin Hanson ran a prediction market for the 
Foresight Institute from 1999 to 2002 or thereabouts.  We all post to this 
list from time to time (Chris and Robin more often than I), so Brett was 
probably thinking of one of us.

As far as I know, none of us is, or has ever been, Charlie Stross. ;-)

---
Ken Kittlitz          http://www.javien.com



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 02:48:16 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:48:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <20050608230825.338.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506090248.j592mAR01360@tick.javien.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:08 PM
> To: ExI-Chat
> Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
> 
> Some well meaning friend forwarded this to me.
> 
> I am thinking this HAS to be nonsense, but I am not an
> astronomer. Amara? Anyone?


Technically correct but grossly overstated in its
tone, such as the breathless NO ONE ALIVE WILL
EVER SEE THIS AGAIN.  It won't look that different
at opposition this year than it will next cycle in a
couple of years.  Your viewing success depends a lot 
more on the atmospheric conditions than the slight
differences in the distance at opposition.

This kind of hype detracts from amateur astronomy,
for the pleasures and insights to be found by gazing 
skyward are quiet, introspective and subtle.  No flash 
or bang is to be found there, no competition for our 
gaudy, glaring neon advertisements and video games.  

The Nietzsche quote of which Amara is fond is really
the best summary of amateur astronomy, that of staring 
into the abyss.  That profound abyss will still be there 
next month, next year, long after we are all perished, 
unchanging, magnificent, stately, not malicious but 
quietly uncaring of our brief struggles on this 
terrestrial sphere.  

spike

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cobb, LynJason
> [mailto:LynJason.cobb at cbnorcal.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:38 PM
> To: ****Menlo Park -El Camino
> Subject: Mars Spectacular!!
> 
> Subject: MARS SPECTACULAR!
> 
>  Now this looks like it might be fun to catch a look
> at?!
> 
> 
> The Red Planet is about to be spectacular! This month
> and next, Earth is
> catching up with Mars in an encounter that will
> culminate in the closest
> approach between the two planets in recorded history.
> The next time Mars
> may come this close is in 2287. Due to the way
> Jupiter's gravity tugs on
> Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be
> certain that Mars has
> not come this close to Earth in the Last 5,000 years,
> but it may be as long
> as 60,000 years before it happens again.
> 
> The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
> comes to within
> 34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
> moon) the brightest
> object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
> -2.9 and will appear
> 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
> magnification
> 
> By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
> to the naked eye.
> 
> Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August
> it will rise in the
> 
> east at 10p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m.
> 
> By the end of August when the two planets are closest,
> Mars will rise at
> nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at
> 12:30a.m. That's pretty
> convenient to see something that no human being has
> seen in recorded
> history. So, mark your calendar at the beginning of
> August to see Mars grow
> progressively brighter and brighter throughout the
> month. Share this with
> your children and grandchildren. NO ONE ALIVE TODAY
> WILL EVER SEE THIS
> AGAIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Avantguardian
> is
> Stuart LaForge
> alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
> 
> "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't
> attempted to contact us."
> -Bill Watterson
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 02:59:21 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:59:21 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <20050608224148.4499857E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <200506090259.j592xFR03261@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of "Hal Finney"
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:42 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS?] Mars as big as the moon?
> 
> Of course Mars will never look as large as the full moon to the naked eye!
> Not from the earth.  Someone must have added that as a joke...

Thru a 75 power scope it said.  Problem is you don't get as
much resolution from a telescope image of an apparent half a degree
as you do looking at the moon with your eyes.  Perhaps it has to do
with using both eyes vs one in a scope.  

spike


> At a modest 75-power magnification
> By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon to the naked 
> eye.



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 03:03:39 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:03:39 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608182723.01ce57c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200506090303.j5933XR03931@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:32 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [ASTRO/BS] Mars as big as the moon?
> 
> At 04:08 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, AG wrote:
> 
> >The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars
> >comes to within
> >34,649,589 miles of Earth and will be (next to the
> >moon) the brightest
> >object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of
> >-2.9 and will appear
> >25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power
> >magnification
> >
> >By August 27, Mars will look as large as the full moon
> >to the naked eye.
> 
> Let's think about this for a fraction of a second. At perigee and
> opposition, Mars is said above to be 25.11 arc seconds wide. The Moon's
> apparent width averages 1800 arc seconds in diameter.
> 

Ja, 25 * 75 = 1875,  Sounds about right to me.  If you go out
with a good telescope, be aware that upper atmospheric turbulence
spoils your fun on most nights.  spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  9 03:11:02 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:11:02 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] volcanoes on titan
In-Reply-To: <20050608224148.4499857E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <200506090311.j593B1R05042@tick.javien.com>

Amara's PhD thesis introduced a clever technique for using
frequency analysis to show that the source of some interplanetary
dust is volcanism on Jovian satellites.  Check this, the Cassini 
spacecraft has found what appears to be volcanism on the Saturnian
satellite Titan:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/06/08/saturn.titan.ap/index.html


(kewallllllll)  {8^]

spike



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun  9 03:16:48 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 04:16:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] volcanoes on titan
In-Reply-To: <200506090311.j593B1R05042@tick.javien.com>
References: <20050608224148.4499857E8C@finney.org>
	<200506090311.j593B1R05042@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05060820167889382@mail.gmail.com>

>From the article:

"Scientists have long speculated that the organic materials in Titan's
atmosphere were formed by seas or lakes of methane or ethane, but the
latest Cassini images did not show any evidence that Titan is awash in
pools of methane."

The Huygens images showed what looked like a river system, and I
remember people saying at the time that they also showed a sea or
large lake (presumably of something like methane or ethane), though to
me the pictures looked too bland to tell either way - is the consensus
now that there aren't any seas or lakes there?

- Russell


From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Thu Jun  9 05:00:28 2005
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:00:28 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <05e601c56a95$1fa1b590$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com><05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<ee50357e05060605032cce1c71@mail.gmail.com>
	<05e601c56a95$1fa1b590$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <42A7CCEC.3000905@mydruthers.com>

On 6/6/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and
> then, point at the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter,
> more capitalist countries.

Well, Brett, since you brought up my name (confusing me with Charlie 
Stross, whose work I like (I'm also President of the Libertarian 
Futurists Society, which gives annual awards for best Libertarian 
Science Fiction.  Stross' Iron Sunrise was nominated this year.))  I'll 
point out that I'm working on open source Prediction Market software at 
CommerceNet.  I gave a talk at the Workshop that Hal Finney mentioned.

To get back to your point, there are already legal Prediction Markets 
running offshore.  And to bring the circle around yet again, a couple of 
the biggest are running in Ireland.  Look up betfair.com (mostly sports 
betting), and tradesports.com.  TradeSports ran markets on the last 
presidential election that correctly predicted the state-by-state 
outcomes of the presidential race.  They currently have claims on the 
Michael Jackson trial, the host city for the 2012 Olympics, which 
supreme Court Justice will step down next, and quite a few more.  Not 
quite the claims I'd like to see (look at Ken Kittlitz' FX for better 
examples) but it's real money, and it's legal.

Chris
-- 
Currently reading: Thomas Barnett, The Pentagon's New Map; Neal
    Stephenson, The System of the World; James Wittenbach, Worlds
    Apart: Meridian; Alexandar Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
http://mydruthers.com


From hal at finney.org  Thu Jun  9 04:27:11 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Wed,  8 Jun 2005 21:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] volcanoes on titan
Message-ID: <20050609042711.A4D5D57E8C@finney.org>

Russell Wallace writes:
> The Huygens images showed what looked like a river system, and I
> remember people saying at the time that they also showed a sea or
> large lake (presumably of something like methane or ethane), though to
> me the pictures looked too bland to tell either way - is the consensus
> now that there aren't any seas or lakes there?

It seemed pretty convincing to me, looking closely at the pictures taken
during the descent, that the probe landed in the dark areas which were
being suggested as possible oceans.  Since it obviously did not end up
in a sea, this suggests that the dark areas were dry at least at the
moment it landed.

I also thought, although I never saw anyone else mention it, that the
pictures from the ground showed light colored highlands in the distance,
further suggesting that the probe was sitting in the dark area.

As you note though the sinuous channels do somewhat resemble river systems
(although to me they didn't look quite right).  Many of the commentators
suggested that this might mean that there are intermittent rains and
that pools may exist only part of the time.  I'm not sure I buy it,
the whole picture doesn't really work for me.

There were also some claims that the impact sensor recordings were
consistent with a dry crust above wet sand, but then I saw some contrary
claims as well.  Sometimes when people have a preconception about
what they expect or hope to see, they try to interpret the data to fit
that model.  They really wanted there to be oceans, and so they try
to find some way to make the data suggest at least moisture.

All that commentary was quite preliminary though, it will probably be
several months before more detailed and considered analysis comes out.

Hal


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 05:47:44 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] volcanoes on titan
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05060820167889382@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050609054744.26272.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Russell Wallace <russell.wallace at gmail.com> wrote:

> >From the article:
> 
> "Scientists have long speculated that the organic materials in
> Titan's
> atmosphere were formed by seas or lakes of methane or ethane, but the
> latest Cassini images did not show any evidence that Titan is awash
> in pools of methane."
> 
> The Huygens images showed what looked like a river system, and I
> remember people saying at the time that they also showed a sea or
> large lake (presumably of something like methane or ethane), though
> to me the pictures looked too bland to tell either way - is the
> consensus now that there aren't any seas or lakes there?

The photos showed up remarkably Tatooine-like, much like Mars, Venus,
i.e. all other arid desert planets we've landed on (including the
orange tint) and while there appeared to be a 'river' system, I seem to
recall that Valles Marineris is remarkably river-like as well, and dry
as heck.... and the "sea" also appeared similar to "seas" and "canals"
once envisioned on Mars, so far as we can tell. At this point it does
appear both less swampy than had been predicted but also geologically
and atmospherically more promising for long term manned exploration.
The extensive greenhouse effect in evidence makes for a promising
environment for human habitation (albiet in environment suits).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
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From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Thu Jun  9 07:11:17 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:11:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin> <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>
	<42A5297D.8020808@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <004301c56cc2$6e1e6c70$9480a8c0@LAPTOP2>

Yes. Riding in  a car is just as bad - except that when I sold cars for a 
while I was forced to get over it. I arrived at my destination yesterday and 
I am in Oregon now (anyone here close to Lake Oswego?). Something I need to 
consider later - My cab driver was nuts and drove like speed racer. Scared 
the living shit out of me. But the fear was "different". Maybe because 20 
minutes is far less than 4 hours, but I haven't had a chance to really think 
on it yet. Maybe because I am more used to cars. Not sure yet. I still wish 
I could nail down that difference between human fear f heights and Orang's 
love of heights. Before I do anything else, I think I am going to climb a 
tree when I get home and see if I experience the same fears. If I don't, 
that will show how much "fear of heights" plays into the problem.
***For those interested - I flew to Atlanta in a Window seat and actually 
more safe than my 2nd flight in a center aisle seat of a 767. Is there a 
greater amount of perceived control when I can see out the window vs not 
being able to? Who knows? I have nbo explanation, but it was an interesting 
observation. I am documenting this all on paper though and plan to publish 
it to the net when I get back - even if mosty think it is worthless 
information.


>> Just a question: how well do you handle being a front-seat passenger in a 
>> car? this is effectively equivalent to being
>> a passenger in an airliner. except that it is statistically much more 
>> dangerous.
>>
>> If you can deal with being a car passenger, how do you do it? can you use 
>> the same coping mechanisms for air travel?
>>
>> You are a control freak. Don't apologize for this: you were born that 
>> way., and there is nothing wrong with it.
>> Non-control-freaks cannot really empathize with your situation, so we 
>> cannot really help.
>
>
> [Les Strouse, a former Air America pilot, now living in Thailand is 
> fearful of stepladders.
> He flew Pilatus Porters landing and taking off from hilltop and ridgeline 
> airstrips in Laos
> and singlehandedly flew a new PP from Switzerland to Saigon.  Go 
> igure!  -Terry]
>
> Hi Terry,
> A solid list of experiments has determined that human babies
> (less than 1 year old - crawling stage) will not crawl - on a
> solid glass floor - out over a drop underneath that glass floor.
>
> They will however, if tempted or otherwise cajoled - agree to
> back out over the drop. But as soon as that `drop' becomes
> visible they immediately retreat to the non-drop portion of their
> environment.
>
> It seems we have a memory which says `height is dangerous' -
> especially if you're _not_ in control.
>
> cheers
>
> Ray D
>
> Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If not 
> wholly
> learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this experiment has 
> included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank 
> Rice
>
>
> Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com 
>  >
>     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
> Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
> Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
>      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
> ------------
> Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
>   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
> veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Thu Jun  9 07:18:51 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:18:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <1118168272.42a5e4d058baf@www.config-server.de>
Message-ID: <005c01c56cc3$7cec2340$9480a8c0@LAPTOP2>

"D-Cycloserine which is a substance interfering with your fear-memory"
Where do you get it?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sm at vreedom.com>
To: <extropy-chat at extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying


> Hi brother in fear of flight . . .
>
>>I'm getting ready to leave on my second commercial flight in my life and I 
>>am
>>dealing with
>>that annoying fear of flying. For the past two days I have not been able 
>>to
>>concentrate on much else. It's always in the back of my head.
>>Yet I know very well the statistics regarding airline safety. I am quite 
>>aware
>> that I am probably more likely to have a plane land on my head than die 
>> in a
>>crash since I have flown so rarely.
>
> I know that . . . It is especially difficult because I live in one country 
> and
> work in another which is 2000 km away! Therefore I MUST fly!
>
>>While I was in the shower I realized that the fear of course comes from a
> PERCEIVED loss of >control. I realized that we as humans constantly fool
> ourselves into believing that we are >in some sort of control when in fact 
> we
> are not.
>>This is evident in the way that we handle our everyday lives.
>
>>It led me to think about religion and how devoutly religious people give 
>>up
> control of >their lives to God. I began to realize that this deep seated 
> need
> to feel in control of our >lives must go back really far. In fact, it 
> could
> very well be the driving force behind >religion, not fear of death, but 
> fear of
> loss of control.
>
> I think you have a point. In everyday consulting work I see that a lot of 
> things
> related to strategy, decisions and leadership basically have fear as a 
> basic,
> not the management-lingo communicated. Also in conflicts of countries. It 
> all
> goes down to individual fear. We start to do seminars about fear for
> business-folks now.
>
> Some ideas about your control-topic. Most phobia/fear-specialists in the
> neuro-field say that it?s not so much a question of personality
> ("control-freak") but of an amygdala in your brain which learned something
> wrong. The neural way via the amygdala is very fast, faster than logical
> thought to intervene. Therefore it is not so much the question to get 
> control
> over the plane, but over your own emotional reaction.
> A relatively new approach (I haven?t used it yet, but I want to) is
> D-Cycloserine which is a substance interfering with your fear-memory. It
> doesn`t suppress fear, but it brings your amygdala to the point to forget 
> that
> it once reacted with fear to planes . . . Transhumanism  will have to 
> further
> the toolbox for modern management of our own mind!
>
> Have a good flight!
>
> Stephan
>
> Stephan Magnus
> High Performance Solutions GmbH
>
> B?ro Portugal: Sitio Pincho, 8600-090 Bensafrim
> Tel. 00351-282 969 161
> Mobil: 0172/5783953
> sm at vreedom.com
> http://www.vreedom.com
>
> Zentrale Deutschland: ?hlm?hle, 34454 Bad Arolsen
> Tel. 05691-628800
> stephanmagnus at hpsolutions.de
> http://www.hpsolutions.de
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Thu Jun  9 07:22:39 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:22:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <DHEDKDAFOIKEGEPMAFCEEELFDBAA.henrik.ohrstrom@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006901c56cc4$049dfde0$9480a8c0@LAPTOP2>

I don't think the issue is height. As I said, I am a student pilot and have 
no trouble there. Also, many pilots seem to have trouble flying commercial. 
I know a large group of pilots and am considering an actual study regarding 
this topic. Any opinions about the value of such a stidy?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Henrik ?hrstr?m" <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying


> >
>> Hi Terry,
>> A solid list of experiments has determined that human babies
>> (less than 1 year old - crawling stage) will not crawl - on a
>> solid glass floor - out over a drop underneath that glass floor.
>>
>> They will however, if tempted or otherwise cajoled - agree to
>> back out over the drop. But as soon as that `drop' becomes
>> visible they immediately retreat to the non-drop portion of their
>> environment.
>>
>> It seems we have a memory which says `height is dangerous' -
>> especially if you're _not_ in control.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Ray D
>>
>> Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If
>> not wholly
>> learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this experiment has
>> included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?
>>
>> Terry
>>
>>
> Well, these experiments are not true for all babies, both my daughters 
> have
> repeatedly tried (and sometimes succeeded in) crawling of edges of all
> kinds. No permanent harm but I make sure that ALL possible jump-off points
> are very well secured since these kamikaze babies has most certainly not
> read those studies.
> I have though and was rather surprised when they started flinging 
> themselves
> of edges...
> Other children I know are more careful and one have never-ever required 
> any
> sort of gate or protection since he is very careful and have as far as I
> know never fallen off anything.
> Darwin days I suppose, I hope that my daredevil cuties gain something more
> than just bumps and sprains from being so physically forward as they are.
>
> /henrik
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMD d- s+: a C++ UL P L+ E- W+@ N+ o K+ w O- M V- PS++ PE+ Y++ PGP++ !t !5
> X- R+ tv- b+++ DI++ D+ G e+++ h---- r+++ y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jun  9 11:43:23 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:43:23 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stem cell breakthrough claims
References: <20050521055013.M72390@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
Message-ID: <001601c56ce8$71a66570$0eb91b97@administxl09yj>

[Amara Graps]
> (*) The futility of trying to live in this country has become 
> too discouraging and I might give up anyway. My fiftieth-something 
> visit to the Polizia  to try to get my permit-of-stay, yielded, as
> usual, nothing. 

http://www.interno.it/news/articolo.php?idarticolo=20934
On May 30 (2005) the 'Ministero dell'Interno' issued
a new "circolare" and new application forms. 



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 13:43:30 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we need...
In-Reply-To: <001601c56ce8$71a66570$0eb91b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <20050609134330.47925.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050609/D8AJUUQ82.html
Top Saudi Says Kingdom Has Plenty of Oil
 
Jun 9, 3:27 AM (ET)

By ANNE GEARAN


WASHINGTON (AP) - Saudi Arabia has plenty of oil - more than the world
is likely to need - along with an increasing ability to refine crude
oil into gasoline and other products before selling it overseas, a top
Saudi official says.

"The world is more likely to run out of uses for oil than Saudi Arabia
is going to run out of oil," Adel al-Jubeir, top foreign policy adviser
for Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler Crown Prince Abdullah, said
Wednesday.

In a wide-ranging interview with The Associated Press, Al-Jubeir said
relations between his nation and the Bush administration were strong
but "the environment in which the relationship operates ... still
leaves a lot to be desired."

He denied his country has any nuclear weapons ambitions, despite
international concerns about a Saudi request to lower international
scrutiny of its lone nuclear reactor.

He said he was "bullish" about the Saudi economy, which although based
on the country's vast oil reserves has also diversified to include a
galloping stock market.

Al-Jubeir dismissed speculation, including in a recent book, that the
country was hiding the true picture of its oil reserves and that it may
have far less than publicly assumed. He said Saudi Arabia has proven
reserves of 261 billion barrels, and with the arrival of newer
technology could extract an additional 100 billion to 200 billion
barrels.

"We will be producing oil for a very long time," al-Jubeir said.

Saudi Arabia now pumps 9.5 million barrels of oil daily, with the
capacity to produce 11 million barrels a day. The country has pledged
to increase daily production to 12.5 million barrels by 2009, and the
nation's oil minister said last month the level of 12.5 million to 15
million barrels daily could be sustained for up to 50 years.

High oil prices benefit the Saudi economy in the short run, but
al-Jubeir said his nation wants a stable price that won't hurt
consumers so much that they reduce their energy demands.

The problem for both the Saudis and the United States is what happens
after the oil is pumped.

"If we send more oil to the United States and you can't refine it, it's
not going to become gasoline," al-Jubeir said. The United States has
not built a refinery since the 1970s, and other markets have similarly
outmoded or limited refining capacity. Environmental concerns and local
opposition make it unlikely new U.S. refineries can be built quickly,
even with the current gas price crunch.

Saudi Arabia has partly stepped into the breach, with new refineries
being built inside the kingdom as well as in China and soon in India,
al-Jubeir said.

The country has also invested in gasoline stations, part of a strategy
of "going downstream" from oil production to distribution, al-Jubeir
said.

"We continue to do it, and we have one of the largest refining and
distribution systems in the world," he said.

Ordinary Saudis remain deeply distrustful of the United States in the
aftermath of the Iraq invasion and revelations about mistreatment of
Muslim prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and a range of
complaints about conditions at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo
Bay, Cuba, al-Jubeir said.

"Why do they hate you? They don't hate you, they just don't like your
policies."

Al-Jubeir said the Saudi regime takes no umbrage at U.S. efforts to
spread democracy in the Middle East. President Bush and Secretary of
State Condoleezza Rice have made democratic expansion a centerpiece of
Bush's second term foreign policy.

"We believe that the idea of spreading freedom and democracy is a noble
one," but change must come on terms each country can accept, al-Jubeir
said.

---

On the Net:

Video from the AP interview is available at:

http://wid.ap.org/video/saudi.rm 



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
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From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Jun  9 15:45:27 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu,  9 Jun 2005 11:45:27 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
In-Reply-To: <20050609134330.47925.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-810C5D2ED8FD11D9A755000393A47D36@[68.243.86.69]>

In other news, Microsoft promises Longhorn "Real Soon Now."


A press release does not consitute evidence sufficient to argue a Peak Oil case either way.  

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 16:07:59 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:07:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-810C5D2ED8FD11D9A755000393A47D36@[68.243.86.69]>
Message-ID: <20050609160759.99614.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm

Analysts missed Chinese buildup


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new director
of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
recognize several key military developments in China in the past
decade, The Washington Times has learned. 
    The report was created by several current and former intelligence
officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with the
report. 
    The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
capabilities.  
    The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have become
more critical of China's military buildup. 
    Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding its
missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
expanding military capabilities. 
    Among the failures highlighted in the study are: 
    ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile. 
    ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology. 
    ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class that
was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine appeared
on the Internet. 
    ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads. 
    ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for targeting
U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups. 
    ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
submarines, warships and fighter-bombers. 
    According to officials familiar with the intelligence report, the
word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development. 
    Many of the missed military developments will be contained in the
Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which was
due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its contents. 
    Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames intelligence
collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese military
and for failing to plant agents in the communist government. 
    Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government China
specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
buildup. 
    "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in the
intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the system. 
    A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
"self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government on
China for 10 years. 
    "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
prevented them from highlighting how little they know and suppressing
occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
enemy." 
    The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime intelligence
analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte, the
new director of national intelligence, as his office's top intelligence
analyst. 
    Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical report
by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman and
former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat. 
    According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies. 
    Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment. 
    Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security Council
staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the U.S.
intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr. Suettinger
is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for comment,
a spokesman said. 
    John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author. 
    Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was among
those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military in
the past 10 years. 
    Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former Army
intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at the
Pentagon during the Clinton administration.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html 



From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun  9 18:12:11 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:12:11 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <20050609160759.99614.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050609160759.99614.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9D60ADD1-8979-4764-AE39-31E592CD1B3C@mac.com>

IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military  
capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the  
only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our  
thumb than anticipated.

- s

On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
>
> Analysts missed Chinese buildup
>
>
> By Bill Gertz
> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>
>
> A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new director
> of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
> recognize several key military developments in China in the past
> decade, The Washington Times has learned.
>     The report was created by several current and former intelligence
> officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
> Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with  
> the
> report.
>     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
> failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
> playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
> capabilities.
>     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have become
> more critical of China's military buildup.
>     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
> weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding  
> its
> missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
> Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
> expanding military capabilities.
>     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
>     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
>     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
> version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
>     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class that
> was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine appeared
> on the Internet.
>     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
> air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
>     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for targeting
> U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
>     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
> submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
>     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report, the
> word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
> failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
>     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in the
> Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which  
> was
> due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its contents.
>     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames intelligence
> collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese military
> and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
>     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
> exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government  
> China
> specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
> intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
> buildup.
>     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in the
> intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
> official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
> analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the system.
>     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
> "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government on
> China for 10 years.
>     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
> prevented them from highlighting how little they know and suppressing
> occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
> enemy."
>     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime intelligence
> analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte, the
> new director of national intelligence, as his office's top  
> intelligence
> analyst.
>     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
> U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical report
> by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman and
> former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
>     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
> analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
>     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
>     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security Council
> staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the U.S.
> intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr. Suettinger
> is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for comment,
> a spokesman said.
>     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
>     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
> Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was among
> those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military in
> the past 10 years.
>     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former Army
> intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at the
> Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
>
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Discover Yahoo!
> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
> Check it out!
> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 18:34:42 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] volcanoes on titan
In-Reply-To: <20050609042711.A4D5D57E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <20050609183442.42628.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>



If there is that much methane and ethane on Titan, I
wonder what higher order alkanes there are. Perhaps
there's octane (i.e. gasoline) on Titan. This might be
a feather in the cap for the abiotic oil people.
Unless someone posits that were somehow life on that
frozen waterless world at one time. Too bad we could
not somehow average together Jupter's Europa with
Titan, because that would be the best real-estate for
Sol's organic life once Sol swells into a red giant.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  9 18:42:17 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <9D60ADD1-8979-4764-AE39-31E592CD1B3C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050609184217.57748.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com>

One branch of gov't helped them, and forgot to tell the other branch.
Said other branch was then surprised.

Problem is, the government is not one big monolithic entity.  It is
comprised of many, many different - some mutually hostile - entities.

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military  
> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the  
> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our  
> thumb than anticipated.
> 
> - s
> 
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
> >
> > Analysts missed Chinese buildup
> >
> >
> > By Bill Gertz
> > THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> >
> >
> > A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
> director
> > of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
> > recognize several key military developments in China in the past
> > decade, The Washington Times has learned.
> >     The report was created by several current and former
> intelligence
> > officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
> > Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with
>  
> > the
> > report.
> >     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
> > failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
> > playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
> > capabilities.
> >     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
> become
> > more critical of China's military buildup.
> >     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
> > weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding
>  
> > its
> > missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
> > Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
> > expanding military capabilities.
> >     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
> >     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
> >     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
> > version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
> >     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
> that
> > was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
> appeared
> > on the Internet.
> >     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
> > air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
> >     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
> targeting
> > U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
> >     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
> > submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
> >     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
> the
> > word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
> > failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
> >     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
> the
> > Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which
>  
> > was
> > due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
> contents.
> >     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
> intelligence
> > collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
> military
> > and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
> >     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
> > exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government  
> > China
> > specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
> > intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
> > buildup.
> >     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
> the
> > intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
> > official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
> > analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
> system.
> >     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
> > "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government
> on
> > China for 10 years.
> >     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
> > prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
> suppressing
> > occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
> > enemy."
> >     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
> intelligence
> > analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte,
> the
> > new director of national intelligence, as his office's top  
> > intelligence
> > analyst.
> >     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
> > U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
> report
> > by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
> and
> > former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
> >     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
> > analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
> >     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
> >     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
> Council
> > staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
> U.S.
> > intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
> Suettinger
> > is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
> comment,
> > a spokesman said.
> >     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
> >     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
> > Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
> among
> > those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military
> in
> > the past 10 years.
> >     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
> Army
> > intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
> the
> > Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
> >
> >
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
> > Check it out!
> > http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 18:43:32 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
In-Reply-To: <20050609134330.47925.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050609184332.52391.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050609/D8AJUUQ82.html
> Top Saudi Says Kingdom Has Plenty of Oil
>  
> Jun 9, 3:27 AM (ET)
> 
> By ANNE GEARAN
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) - Saudi Arabia has plenty of oil -
> more than the world
> is likely to need - along with an increasing ability
> to refine crude
> oil into gasoline and other products before selling
> it overseas, a top
> Saudi official says.

If this is true, then Iraq was a COMPLETE waste of
money and lives. Especially since Iraq's democratic
training wheels are being lubricated with American
blood. Unless of course you are Dick Cheney, in which
case you won the lotto. I think I would refuse that
man life-extension technologies, if I had them to
give. The world is better off without him.




The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From hal at finney.org  Thu Jun  9 18:14:23 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Thu,  9 Jun 2005 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
Message-ID: <20050609181423.1B49757E8C@finney.org>

The book that claims the Saudis are close to peaking in their oil
production is Twilight in the Desert by Matt Simmons.  I haven't read
it but I'm not sure how credible it can be; the Saudis are notoriously
secretive about the details of their oil operations.

The big thing I don't understand is why, if Saudi Arabia is in fact close
to reaching a peak in its oil production, it would want to lie about it
and claim that it can continue to increase.  Credible news of a Saudi
peak would drive up oil prices as the prospect of near-future shortages
becomes more likely.  This would put money in the Saudis' pockets!  By
lying about it, the Saudis are keeping oil prices low and making sure
that they don't make as much money as they could.

I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, but don't conspirators
usually aim to make money rather than lose it?  "Come on, guys, here's
our big secret plan to find a new way to lose money!"  It's hard for
me to see the reasoning behind why the Saudis would do this.

If anything, I'd expect them to be tempted to constantly invoke the
spectre of possibly running out in the near future.  Then they would
keep pushing the date out, to keep the tension high and keep prices as
high as possible.  But they certainly aren't doing any such thing, as
the article Mike quoted shows.

Hal Finney


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 19:05:17 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <20050609184217.57748.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050609190517.78367.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> One branch of gov't helped them, and forgot to tell
> the other branch.
> Said other branch was then surprised.
> 
> Problem is, the government is not one big monolithic
> entity.  It is
> comprised of many, many different - some mutually
> hostile - entities.

Yup. The way this country (USA) is so rabidly
polarized politically worries me greatly. The fact
that this ultra-partisanship seems to be permitted and
perhaps even fostered by our leaders tells me that
they are unwise. It seems to indicate the existense of
an invisible enemy either foreign or domestic that are
succeeding in dividing and conquering us. Either that
or we are dividing ourselves over trivial (compared to
the economic well-being of our great
nation-state)issues like gays and abortion and
inviting some external force to conquer us. 
      Either way, our leaders are being stupid. 
 
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

>>  IMHO, the  
> > only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder
> to keep under our  
> > thumb than anticipated.
> > 

No doubt. Especially since the report doesn't even
hint that our intelligence agencies have a clue about
the Chinese dollar-bomb. Why is the blogo-sphere more
"with-it" than the NSA and CIA? Are they spending too
much time spying on Americans rather than performing
their chartered duties? Stupid. Stupid.


> > 
> > On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > 
> > >
>
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
> > >
> > > Analysts missed Chinese buildup
> > >
> > >
> > > By Bill Gertz
> > > THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> > >
> > >
> > > A highly classified intelligence report produced
> for the new
> > director
> > > of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy
> agencies failed to
> > > recognize several key military developments in
> China in the past
> > > decade, The Washington Times has learned.

The Chinese wrote the "Art of War". They are employing
formlessness against us, while we scream our military
secrets and internal dissent to the world on the 6
o'clock news.
 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  9 19:12:52 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:12:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
In-Reply-To: <20050609181423.1B49757E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <20050609191252.80744.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Hal Finney <hal at finney.org> wrote:

> The book that claims the Saudis are close to peaking
> in their oil
> production is Twilight in the Desert by Matt
> Simmons.  I haven't read
> it but I'm not sure how credible it can be; the
> Saudis are notoriously
> secretive about the details of their oil operations.
> 
> The big thing I don't understand is why, if Saudi
> Arabia is in fact close
> to reaching a peak in its oil production, it would
> want to lie about it
> and claim that it can continue to increase. 
> Credible news of a Saudi
> peak would drive up oil prices as the prospect of
> near-future shortages
> becomes more likely.  This would put money in the
> Saudis' pockets!  By
> lying about it, the Saudis are keeping oil prices
> low and making sure
> that they don't make as much money as they could.
> 
> I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy,
> but don't conspirators
> usually aim to make money rather than lose it? 
> "Come on, guys, here's
> our big secret plan to find a new way to lose
> money!"  It's hard for
> me to see the reasoning behind why the Saudis would
> do this.
> 
My guess would be either, they want to soothe the
savage beast (US military) that has been rampaging
through the Middle East with a "the check is in the
mail" type excuse or maybe they are just overconfident
about their production capabilities and the advance of
technologies that would allow them to get the really
deep stuff. 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html 



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun  9 19:52:44 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050609195244.43871.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The way this country (USA) is so rabidly
> polarized politically worries me greatly. The fact
> that this ultra-partisanship seems to be permitted and
> perhaps even fostered by our leaders tells me that
> they are unwise. It seems to indicate the existense of
> an invisible enemy either foreign or domestic that are
> succeeding in dividing and conquering us.

Domestic...and not entirely unwise, at least not from their own
perspectives.

There is an ancient bit of wisdom, part of which boils down to, "Let's
you and him fight".  Kings and emperors have long employed the tactic
of setting duke against duke, baron against baron, to make sure that
none of their leiges grows powerful enough to seriously challenge the
king or emperor.  This principle even applies to democracies, where
power can obtain the popularity needed to win votes.  (Consider how
much a truly nationwide political advertising campaign costs, for
example - the kind that uses network TV and radio and all those old
media that the masses still get their information from even today.)

This keeps the leaders in power.  Consequences for the direction that
power takes, or (from another point of view) the constraints that puts
on the possible uses of power, are secondary to merely remaining on
top.  Consider, for example: how many serious contenders for the US
presidency have we had in the past few decades, who truly would settle
for having their policies and stated goals implemented by their
victorious opponent?  (Granted, in most such races that would be a pipe
dream, as the opponent would take their victory as a signal that the
loser's policies and stated goals were not in fact that popular and
perhaps not worth implementing.  But that doesn't make the hypothetical
quesiton unanswerable.)

> Either that
> or we are dividing ourselves over trivial (compared to
> the economic well-being of our great
> nation-state)issues like gays and abortion and
> inviting some external force to conquer us. 

That too, although we keep our military coherent enough that military
conquest is not really an option.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun  9 23:16:28 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:16:28 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

http://www.rense.com/ufo6/ufotheatre.mpg

so what is it? 



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun  9 23:24:39 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:24:39 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42A8CFB7.50601@humanenhancement.com>

A very adept use of Adobe Media.

Rule #1: If it's on rense.com, probability approaches 99% that it's crap.

Joseph

Damien Broderick wrote:

> http://www.rense.com/ufo6/ufotheatre.mpg
>
> so what is it?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From dgc at cox.net  Thu Jun  9 23:30:52 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:30:52 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <006901c56cc4$049dfde0$9480a8c0@LAPTOP2>
References: <DHEDKDAFOIKEGEPMAFCEEELFDBAA.henrik.ohrstrom@gmail.com>
	<006901c56cc4$049dfde0$9480a8c0@LAPTOP2>
Message-ID: <42A8D12C.1040007@cox.net>

Kevin Freels wrote:

> I don't think the issue is height. As I said, I am a student pilot and 
> have no trouble there. Also, many pilots seem to have trouble flying 
> commercial.

Try this (on smaller airliners not Jumbos.)  Ask for an exit aisle 
window seat. You are now an honorary member of the crew with an 
important responsibility in the event of an emergency. Pay careful 
attention to the safety briefing,and carefully read and understand the 
safety card, all as part of fulfilling your responsibilities as an 
exit-aisle "crew member." Your psyche is likely to use this position of 
responsibility to let you feel as if you have more control. On a Jumbo, 
the exit aisle is usually not a good seat (no tray table, exposed to 
traffic in the main aisle) but you may choose to use this strategy on a 
Jumbo if you find it helps on a smaller airliner.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jun 10 00:01:11 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:01:11 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
In-Reply-To: <42A8CFB7.50601@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42A8CFB7.50601@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609185923.01ccd608@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 07:24 PM 6/9/2005 -0400, Joseph Bloch wrote:

>Rule #1: If it's on rense.com, probability approaches 99% that it's crap.

Of course. But it's cute imagery... I'd be very surprised if it's not 
time-traveling demons from Atlantis.

Damien Broderick 



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Fri Jun 10 00:04:52 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:04:52 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609185923.01ccd608@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<42A8CFB7.50601@humanenhancement.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050609185923.01ccd608@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42A8D924.1060804@humanenhancement.com>

Well you never mentioned Atlantis!

Of COURSE they're from Atlantis...

;-)

Joe

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 07:24 PM 6/9/2005 -0400, Joseph Bloch wrote:
>
>> Rule #1: If it's on rense.com, probability approaches 99% that it's 
>> crap.
>
>
> Of course. But it's cute imagery... I'd be very surprised if it's not 
> time-traveling demons from Atlantis.
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 10 00:17:52 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
In-Reply-To: 6667
Message-ID: <20050610001752.79702.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> http://www.rense.com/ufo6/ufotheatre.mpg
> 
> so what is it? 

I got the impression of some people moving/placing lights on a tower,
far enough away so you couldn't see the tower but you could see the
lights.  A number of possible reasons spring up, given as the area is
unknown rural/wilds; among them is simply some people playing a prank
on those they know to be prone to believing in UFOs.


From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 10 01:02:37 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:02:37 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <20050609160759.99614.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050609160759.99614.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42A8E6AD.5060606@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
>
>Analysts missed Chinese buildup
>
>
>  
>
All the analysts have to do is put themselves in the place of the Chinese.
What threats is China likely to face?
With an economy expanding 10% per annum what can they afford to build 
and what will they have to buy, and from where.
Nothing in that article was a surprise.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 10 01:03:35 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:03:35 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Film at
	eleven.
In-Reply-To: <42A7CCEC.3000905@mydruthers.com>
References: <e88b73ce05060523497f1224bc@mail.gmail.com><05bb01c56a8b$213de4f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<ee50357e05060605032cce1c71@mail.gmail.com>	<05e601c56a95$1fa1b590$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<42A7CCEC.3000905@mydruthers.com>
Message-ID: <42A8E6E7.3010904@neopax.com>

Chris Hibbert wrote:

> On 6/6/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>> Sure, one possibility is to make it legal elsewhere first, and
>> then, point at the revenue the US is losing to freer, smarter,
>> more capitalist countries.
>
>
> Well, Brett, since you brought up my name (confusing me with Charlie 
> Stross, whose work I like (I'm also President of the Libertarian 
> Futurists Society, which gives annual awards for best Libertarian 
> Science Fiction.  Stross' Iron Sunrise was nominated this year.))  
> I'll point out that I'm working on open source Prediction Market 
> software at CommerceNet.  I gave a talk at the Workshop that Hal 
> Finney mentioned.
>
> To get back to your point, there are already legal Prediction Markets 
> running offshore.  And to bring the circle around yet again, a couple 
> of the biggest are running in Ireland.  Look up betfair.com (mostly 
> sports betting), and tradesports.com.  TradeSports ran markets on the 
> last presidential election that correctly predicted the state-by-state 
> outcomes of the presidential race.  They currently have claims on the 
> Michael Jackson trial, the host city for the 2012 Olympics, which 
> supreme Court Justice will step down next, and quite a few more.  Not 
> quite the claims I'd like to see (look at Ken Kittlitz' FX for better 
> examples) but it's real money, and it's legal.
>
It's the latest incarnation of Ouija.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 10 01:29:31 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:29:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs inpublic!Filmateleven.
In-Reply-To: <1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>
References: <586da73fcb70f35d2fdc89d8b73dac83@stross.org.uk><04fd01c56a4e$0c55f380$6e2a2dcb@homepc><f19e9ae003a5d55591208360b4244661@antipope.org>	<4421eadc791f0ea39c3a691a8170b8ad@stross.org.uk>	<001e01c56c1e$fa1201f0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<7c89af82cb5da08b755404e1e5d6dd99@antipope.org>
	<1ac111f3af46598e9920fb29b67aff49@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <42A8ECFB.7090000@neopax.com>

Charlie Stross wrote:

>
> On 8 Jun 2005, at 18:42, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
>> It gets better. According to Monday's Herald, 39.5% of the population 
>> are hard atheists (no religion, period), and of the rest, only 60% 
>> believe in God -- the rest just have a numinous vague sense of 
>> something out there. The proportion attending church on a regular 
>> basis -- monthly or more often -- is down around 10%.
>
>
> Clarification, the "60% believe in God" applies to the 60% of the 
> population who do not expressly deny having any religion. Meaning it's 
> more like 40% of the total who believe in God at all.
>
> Politicians who come on heavy with the prayer thing in Scotland 
> actually *lose* votes because ordinary people think they're nutters.
>
I think that's true of  Britain in general.
The idea of Blair praying alonside Bush sent a wave of unsease through 
the country, and this time it had little to do with Bush.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 10 01:31:26 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:31:26 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Current Problems With WTA and TV05
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050608203232.03062100@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050608203232.03062100@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42A8ED6E.9000900@neopax.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Friends - transhumanists and other futurists,
>
> Many of us are members of WTA and care about its success.  While we 
> have not always had smooth sailing with WTA due to  the lack of credit 
> given to transhumanism's philosophical author Max More, the erroneous 
> political positioning ExI, and the lack of acknowledgement and respect 
> of ExI as being the spearheading transhumanist organization who 
> introduced transhumanism to the world; putting all this aside, we need 
> to be supportive for a positive resolve to the current problems within 
> the structure of WTA.
>
> WTA has made beneficial contributions to transhumanism over the past 
> years.  James Hughes has worked hard along with Nick Bostrom and other 
> Directors of WTA.  Our goals for the future need the support and joint 
> efforts of organizations such as WTA.  It has always been my hope that 
> WTA would be a complimentary and collaborative organization of ExI and 
> that we could work together to  create the future.  I still hold onto 
> this hope.  It is also my hope that we can develop a game plan where 
> all transhumanist organizations have a place and that we get smart 
> about working together more efficiently, effectively and successfully. 
> As such, the stakes are high and so are the returns.
>
> Today, WTA is undergoing difficulties between some of its Board 
> members which affects the upcoming TV05 conference in Venezuela.  The 
> dispute is between the conference Chair Jose Cordeiro and WTA's 
> Executive Director James Hughes.
>
> Rather than fuel the fire of this current problem, let us try to 
> encourage peace between them and a fair and equitable resolution to 
> the problems.
>
> If you have any concerns or questions, please feel free to discussion 
> them openly or privately, but please let us work toward resolution and 
> do our very best to set an example of how society, in all its 
> differences, can manage to be iron out the kinks.
>
I think that the only thing that need be said is that too much power in 
the hands of one person is a bad idea in the long term, even if there 
are short term benefits.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Jun 10 04:29:47 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:29:47 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (TLC-Brotherhood FWD) Re: Fear of flying
Message-ID: <42A9173B.7010402@mindspring.com>

[Les Strouse is the retired Air America pilot.  -Terry]

Terry,

I do know a few pilots who do not like flying in the back of the airplane.
I don't know that it is a fear or just that they don't trust someone else
at the controls.

As far as the fear of heights is concerned....not in a flying machine but
for sure on ladders, second floor or higher balconies and even escalators
that have a view down two floors or more.  Other than wild stuff like
ferris wheels one of my greatest dislikes is glass enclosed elevators
that give you a great view of the scenery but cause me to look for an
alternative.

Les Strouse

"Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:

>FOR Les Strouse
>
>Pilot fear of heights and commercial flying appears more common than we 
>suspected.
>
>Terry
>
>I don't think the issue is height. As I said, I am a student pilot and have 
>no trouble there. Also, many pilots seem to have trouble flying commercial. 
>I know a large group of pilots and am considering an actual study regarding 
>this topic. Any opinions about the value of such a study?
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>
>>> Hi Terry,
>>> A solid list of experiments has determined that human babies
>>> (less than 1 year old - crawling stage) will not crawl - on a
>>> solid glass floor - out over a drop underneath that glass floor.
>>>
>>> They will however, if tempted or otherwise cajoled - agree to
>>> back out over the drop. But as soon as that `drop' becomes
>>> visible they immediately retreat to the non-drop portion of their
>>> environment.
>>>
>>> It seems we have a memory which says `height is dangerous' -
>>> especially if you're _not_ in control.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Ray D
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ray.  I remember seeing newsclips of this experiment.  If
>>> not wholly learned then this is a genetic memory.  I wonder if this
>>> experiment has included primate babies, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans?
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>>
>> Well, these experiments are not true for all babies, both my daughters have
>> repeatedly tried (and sometimes succeeded in) crawling of edges of all
>> kinds. No permanent harm but I make sure that ALL possible jump-off points
>> are very well secured since these kamikaze babies has most certainly not
>> read those studies.
>> I have though and was rather surprised when they started flinging 
>> themselves > of edges...
>> Other children I know are more careful and one have never-ever required 
>> any sort of gate or protection since he is very careful and have as far as I
>> know never fallen off anything.
>> Darwin days I suppose, I hope that my daredevil cuties gain something more
>> than just bumps and sprains from being so physically forward as they are.
>>
>> /henrik



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Fri Jun 10 15:05:10 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:05:10 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Oprah Gender-bending
Message-ID: <46450-22005651015510796@M2W126.mail2web.com>

"She's not a ratings whore, but she plays one on TV. And that ain't all
Oprah is playing, according to In Touch. A friend of the talk-show grande
dame says she's getting a sex change--sort of. Thanks to a $25,000
prosthetic man-suit, she'll go on a nonsurgical gender bender for a few
days to see how the other half lives. Fully decked out with fake facial
hair and a rug, Oprah will be filmed 24-7. Here's hoping she picks up some
chicks. Hello, ladies, my name is Doprah, the man of your dreams!"

Natasha



 




--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 15:30:22 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <9D60ADD1-8979-4764-AE39-31E592CD1B3C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050610153022.29245.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"we helped them"? Could you provide details. Last I checked they
weren't flying F-16s....

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military  
> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the  
> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our  
> thumb than anticipated.
> 
> - s
> 
> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
> >
> > Analysts missed Chinese buildup
> >
> >
> > By Bill Gertz
> > THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> >
> >
> > A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
> director
> > of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
> > recognize several key military developments in China in the past
> > decade, The Washington Times has learned.
> >     The report was created by several current and former
> intelligence
> > officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
> > Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with
>  
> > the
> > report.
> >     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
> > failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
> > playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
> > capabilities.
> >     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
> become
> > more critical of China's military buildup.
> >     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
> > weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding
>  
> > its
> > missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
> > Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
> > expanding military capabilities.
> >     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
> >     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
> >     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
> > version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
> >     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
> that
> > was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
> appeared
> > on the Internet.
> >     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
> > air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
> >     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
> targeting
> > U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
> >     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
> > submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
> >     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
> the
> > word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
> > failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
> >     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
> the
> > Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which
>  
> > was
> > due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
> contents.
> >     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
> intelligence
> > collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
> military
> > and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
> >     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
> > exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government  
> > China
> > specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
> > intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
> > buildup.
> >     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
> the
> > intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
> > official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
> > analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
> system.
> >     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
> > "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government
> on
> > China for 10 years.
> >     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
> > prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
> suppressing
> > occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
> > enemy."
> >     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
> intelligence
> > analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte,
> the
> > new director of national intelligence, as his office's top  
> > intelligence
> > analyst.
> >     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
> > U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
> report
> > by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
> and
> > former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
> >     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
> > analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
> >     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
> >     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
> Council
> > staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
> U.S.
> > intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
> Suettinger
> > is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
> comment,
> > a spokesman said.
> >     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
> >     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
> > Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
> among
> > those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military
> in
> > the past 10 years.
> >     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
> Army
> > intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
> the
> > Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
> >
> >
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
> > Check it out!
> > http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 15:41:44 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:41:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
In-Reply-To: <20050609181423.1B49757E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <20050610154144.10350.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Hal Finney <hal at finney.org> wrote:

> The book that claims the Saudis are close to peaking in their oil
> production is Twilight in the Desert by Matt Simmons.  I haven't read
> it but I'm not sure how credible it can be; the Saudis are
> notoriously secretive about the details of their oil operations.
> 
> The big thing I don't understand is why, if Saudi Arabia is in fact
> close to reaching a peak in its oil production, it would want to lie
> about it and claim that it can continue to increase. Credible news
> of a Saudi peak would drive up oil prices as the prospect of near-
> future shortages becomes more likely. This would put money in the
> Saudis' pockets! By lying about it, the Saudis are keeping oil
> prices low and making sure that they don't make as much money as
> they could.
> 
> I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy, but don't
> conspirators usually aim to make money rather than lose it?
>  "Come on, guys, here's
> our big secret plan to find a new way to lose money!"  It's hard for
> me to see the reasoning behind why the Saudis would do this.
> 
> If anything, I'd expect them to be tempted to constantly invoke the
> spectre of possibly running out in the near future.  Then they would
> keep pushing the date out, to keep the tension high and keep prices
> as high as possible.  But they certainly aren't doing any such thing,
> as the article Mike quoted shows.

It appears to me exactly as the Saudis state it: our high prices here
in the US are the result of a lack of refinery capacity to refine sour
crudes. Sweet crudes come from three locations (other than domestic
wells): Venezuela, Nigeria, and the North Sea, with some coming on line
from Russia. Saudi Arabia can do little to reduce gas prices here
unless we expand that capacity, although they are building their own
refineries there, which likely will help.

Venezuela, obviously, is intent on pushing prices as high as possible.
Hugo Chavez has bought enough infantry equipment for ten times as many
troops as his government has enlisted, plus 50 Migs, helicopters, and
is expanding the navy. Despite claims when he nationalized Venezuela's
oil industry that the proceeds would be to feed the poor, he is
spending his gains on a massive military buildup and needs prices as
high as possible, so he is purposely eliciting US perceptions of
venezuelan instability in order to bid up market prices.

Nigeria has suffered sabotage to its refinery capacity at the hands of
muslim guerrillas. Little mention has been made of this groups ties to
al Qaeda.

Europe is keeping as much of its north sea capacity for itself and is
not developing any unexplored reserves. You've all heard my talk about
the Club of Rome's malthusian plans, so I'll spare you this time.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


	
		
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Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 15:50:07 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PHREAK OIL: Saudi says they have more than we
	need...
In-Reply-To: <20050609184332.52391.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050610155007.59176.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050609/D8AJUUQ82.html
> > Top Saudi Says Kingdom Has Plenty of Oil
> >  
> > Jun 9, 3:27 AM (ET)
> > 
> > By ANNE GEARAN
> > 
> > 
> > WASHINGTON (AP) - Saudi Arabia has plenty of oil -
> > more than the world
> > is likely to need - along with an increasing ability
> > to refine crude
> > oil into gasoline and other products before selling
> > it overseas, a top
> > Saudi official says.
> 
> If this is true, then Iraq was a COMPLETE waste of
> money and lives. Especially since Iraq's democratic
> training wheels are being lubricated with American
> blood. Unless of course you are Dick Cheney, in which
> case you won the lotto. I think I would refuse that
> man life-extension technologies, if I had them to
> give. The world is better off without him.

Actually, Cheney was against the sanctions and wanted them ended. It
allegedly took a while for the neocons to bring him around to their
view. If you are going to play voodoo doll games, save it for Perle,
Wolfowitz, and that gang.

As for Iraq: we have free elections in Lebanon, Syria is learning to
behave itself, all the palestinian factions are in agreement about a
truce with Israel, Egypt is preparing for nationwide multi-party
elections, oh, and as for Iraq, two of the main Sunni insurgent groups
are now in discussions to come into government.

Not a single member of the US military is a draftee, they knew the
risks when they signed up, and obviously thought the rewards were greater.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 15:54:24 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] angels dancing on a pin
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050609181540.01d4bbc8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050610155424.25765.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> http://www.rense.com/ufo6/ufotheatre.mpg
> 
> so what is it? 

Rense or the video? Looks like some guys with planes flying in
formation to prank some UFO spotters.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 10 17:13:50 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:13:50 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <20050610153022.29245.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050610153022.29245.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E0AED3F2-9D7B-4F50-9956-3285DC594E9A@mac.com>

It is easy enough to find if you wish.  I will not spoon feed you.
On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> "we helped them"? Could you provide details. Last I checked they
> weren't flying F-16s....
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military
>> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the
>> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our
>> thumb than anticipated.
>>
>> - s
>>
>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>
>>> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
>>>
>>> Analysts missed Chinese buildup
>>>
>>>
>>> By Bill Gertz
>>> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>>>
>>>
>>> A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
>>>
>> director
>>
>>> of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
>>> recognize several key military developments in China in the past
>>> decade, The Washington Times has learned.
>>>     The report was created by several current and former
>>>
>> intelligence
>>
>>> officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
>>> Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with
>>>
>>
>>
>>> the
>>> report.
>>>     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
>>> failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
>>> playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
>>> capabilities.
>>>     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
>>>
>> become
>>
>>> more critical of China's military buildup.
>>>     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
>>> weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding
>>>
>>
>>
>>> its
>>> missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
>>> Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
>>> expanding military capabilities.
>>>     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
>>>     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
>>>     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
>>> version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
>>>     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
>>>
>> appeared
>>
>>> on the Internet.
>>>     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
>>> air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
>>>     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
>>>
>> targeting
>>
>>> U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
>>>     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
>>> submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
>>>     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
>>> failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
>>>     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which
>>>
>>
>>
>>> was
>>> due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
>>>
>> contents.
>>
>>>     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
>>>
>> intelligence
>>
>>> collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
>>>
>> military
>>
>>> and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
>>>     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
>>> exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government
>>> China
>>> specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
>>> intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
>>> buildup.
>>>     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
>>> official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
>>> analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
>>>
>> system.
>>
>>>     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
>>> "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government
>>>
>> on
>>
>>> China for 10 years.
>>>     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
>>> prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
>>>
>> suppressing
>>
>>> occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
>>> enemy."
>>>     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
>>>
>> intelligence
>>
>>> analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte,
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> new director of national intelligence, as his office's top
>>> intelligence
>>> analyst.
>>>     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
>>> U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
>>>
>> report
>>
>>> by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
>>>     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
>>> analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
>>>     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
>>>     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
>>>
>> Council
>>
>>> staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
>>>
>> U.S.
>>
>>> intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
>>>
>> Suettinger
>>
>>> is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
>>>
>> comment,
>>
>>> a spokesman said.
>>>     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
>>>     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
>>> Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
>>>
>> among
>>
>>> those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military
>>>
>> in
>>
>>> the past 10 years.
>>>     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
>>>
>> Army
>>
>>> intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Lorrey
>>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Discover Yahoo!
>>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.
>>> Check it out!
>>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Discover Yahoo!
> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
> Check it out!
> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 10 17:43:05 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:43:05 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <E0AED3F2-9D7B-4F50-9956-3285DC594E9A@mac.com>
References: <20050610153022.29245.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<E0AED3F2-9D7B-4F50-9956-3285DC594E9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5A0431F5-5AB1-4F00-84F3-EC0E1D1E3918@mac.com>

Actually I apologize.  It is not that easy to find such links.  I was  
thinking of some items (iirc) that we have sold like various military  
helicopters, guidance systems, supercomputers, satellite technology  
and so on.  We have also done some joint military exercises.  But  
mostly Mike is right that we haven't stocked their major military  
hardware.  There does seem to be a flow of arms from US to Israel to  
China through back channels.  But most of the hardware they don't  
build themselves seems to source from Russia.

- s

On Jun 10, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> It is easy enough to find if you wish.  I will not spoon feed you.
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>
>
>> "we helped them"? Could you provide details. Last I checked they
>> weren't flying F-16s....
>>
>> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military
>>> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the
>>> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our
>>> thumb than anticipated.
>>>
>>> - s
>>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
>>>>
>>>> Analysts missed Chinese buildup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By Bill Gertz
>>>> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
>>>>
>>>>
>>> director
>>>
>>>
>>>> of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
>>>> recognize several key military developments in China in the past
>>>> decade, The Washington Times has learned.
>>>>     The report was created by several current and former
>>>>
>>>>
>>> intelligence
>>>
>>>
>>>> officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
>>>> Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> the
>>>> report.
>>>>     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
>>>> failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
>>>> playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
>>>> capabilities.
>>>>     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
>>>>
>>>>
>>> become
>>>
>>>
>>>> more critical of China's military buildup.
>>>>     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
>>>> weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> its
>>>> missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
>>>> Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
>>>> expanding military capabilities.
>>>>     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
>>>>     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
>>>>     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
>>>> version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
>>>>     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
>>>>
>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>
>>>> was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
>>>>
>>>>
>>> appeared
>>>
>>>
>>>> on the Internet.
>>>>     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
>>>> air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
>>>>     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
>>>>
>>>>
>>> targeting
>>>
>>>
>>>> U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
>>>>     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
>>>> submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
>>>>     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
>>>> failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
>>>>     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> was
>>>> due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
>>>>
>>>>
>>> contents.
>>>
>>>
>>>>     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
>>>>
>>>>
>>> intelligence
>>>
>>>
>>>> collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
>>>>
>>>>
>>> military
>>>
>>>
>>>> and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
>>>>     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
>>>> exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government
>>>> China
>>>> specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
>>>> intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
>>>> buildup.
>>>>     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
>>>> official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
>>>> analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
>>>>
>>>>
>>> system.
>>>
>>>
>>>>     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
>>>> "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government
>>>>
>>>>
>>> on
>>>
>>>
>>>> China for 10 years.
>>>>     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
>>>> prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
>>>>
>>>>
>>> suppressing
>>>
>>>
>>>> occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
>>>> enemy."
>>>>     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
>>>>
>>>>
>>> intelligence
>>>
>>>
>>>> analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte,
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> new director of national intelligence, as his office's top
>>>> intelligence
>>>> analyst.
>>>>     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
>>>> U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
>>>>
>>>>
>>> report
>>>
>>>
>>>> by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
>>>>
>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>> former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
>>>>     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
>>>> analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
>>>>     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
>>>>     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Council
>>>
>>>
>>>> staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
>>>>
>>>>
>>> U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>>> intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Suettinger
>>>
>>>
>>>> is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
>>>>
>>>>
>>> comment,
>>>
>>>
>>>> a spokesman said.
>>>>     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
>>>>     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
>>>> Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
>>>>
>>>>
>>> among
>>>
>>>
>>>> those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military
>>>>
>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>
>>>> the past 10 years.
>>>>     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Army
>>>
>>>
>>>> intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike Lorrey
>>>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>>>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>>>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>>>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>>>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________
>>>> Discover Yahoo!
>>>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.
>>>> Check it out!
>>>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Lorrey
>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Discover Yahoo!
>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
>> Check it out!
>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 17:50:45 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <E0AED3F2-9D7B-4F50-9956-3285DC594E9A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050610175045.19811.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Which means you are full of it.

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> It is easy enough to find if you wish.  I will not spoon feed you.
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > "we helped them"? Could you provide details. Last I checked they
> > weren't flying F-16s....
> >
> > --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military
> >> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the
> >> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our
> >> thumb than anticipated.
> >>
> >> - s
> >>
> >> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
> >>>
> >>> Analysts missed Chinese buildup
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> By Bill Gertz
> >>> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
> >>>
> >> director
> >>
> >>> of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed
> to
> >>> recognize several key military developments in China in the past
> >>> decade, The Washington Times has learned.
> >>>     The report was created by several current and former
> >>>
> >> intelligence
> >>
> >>> officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a
> dozen
> >>> Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar
> with
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>> the
> >>> report.
> >>>     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
> >>> failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame
> for
> >>> playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
> >>> capabilities.
> >>>     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
> >>>
> >> become
> >>
> >>> more critical of China's military buildup.
> >>>     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over
> the
> >>> weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is
> expanding
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>> its
> >>> missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
> >>> Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
> >>> expanding military capabilities.
> >>>     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
> >>>     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
> >>>     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen
> Chinese
> >>> version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
> >>>     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
> >>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>> was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
> >>>
> >> appeared
> >>
> >>> on the Internet.
> >>>     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
> >>> air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
> >>>     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
> >>>
> >> targeting
> >>
> >>> U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
> >>>     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
> >>> submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
> >>>     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
> >>> failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
> >>>     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military,
> which
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>> was
> >>> due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
> >>>
> >> contents.
> >>
> >>>     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
> >>>
> >> intelligence
> >>
> >>> collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
> >>>
> >> military
> >>
> >>> and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
> >>>     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
> >>> exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government
> >>> China
> >>> specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
> >>> intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
> >>> buildup.
> >>>     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
> >>> official said, adding that covering up the failure of
> intelligence
> >>> analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
> >>>
> >> system.
> >>
> >>>     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
> >>> "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S.
> government
> >>>
> >> on
> >>
> >>> China for 10 years.
> >>>     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
> >>> prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
> >>>
> >> suppressing
> >>
> >>> occasional evidence that China views the United States as its
> main
> >>> enemy."
> >>>     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
> >>>
> >> intelligence
> >>
> >>> analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D.
> Negroponte,
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> new director of national intelligence, as his office's top
> >>> intelligence
> >>> analyst.
> >>>     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews
> of
> >>> U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
> >>>
> >> report
> >>
> >>> by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
> >>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>> former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
> >>>     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team
> of
> >>> analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
> >>>     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
> >>>     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
> >>>
> >> Council
> >>
> >>> staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
> >>>
> >> U.S.
> >>
> >>> intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
> >>>
> >> Suettinger
> >>
> >>> is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
> >>>
> >> comment,
> >>
> >>> a spokesman said.
> >>>     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the
> co-author.
> >>>     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
> >>> Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
> >>>
> >> among
> >>
> >>> those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's
> military
> >>>
> >> in
> >>
> >>> the past 10 years.
> >>>     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
> >>>
> >> Army
> >>
> >>> intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mike Lorrey
> >>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> >>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> >>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> >>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________
> >>> Discover Yahoo!
> >>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.
> >>> Check it out!
> >>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
> > Check it out!
> > http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Make Yahoo! your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 17:56:40 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <5A0431F5-5AB1-4F00-84F3-EC0E1D1E3918@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050610175640.24424.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks, I'm sorry I kicked back.

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Actually I apologize.  It is not that easy to find such links.  I was
> thinking of some items (iirc) that we have sold like various military
> helicopters, guidance systems, supercomputers, satellite technology  
> and so on.  We have also done some joint military exercises.  But  
> mostly Mike is right that we haven't stocked their major military  
> hardware.  There does seem to be a flow of arms from US to Israel to 
> China through back channels.  But most of the hardware they don't  
> build themselves seems to source from Russia.

Yes, most of the assistance we gave was during the Clinton years, when
Bubba couldn't seem to keep from getting rid of any export restriction
possible. Then of course there is the case of the father of their ICBM
program was a fellow who had fled to the US in the 50's, been involved
in our program, then went home to help the motherland. There was also
the case of a certain satellite company here who, in order to reduce
the launch risk to their own satellite they'd hired China to launch for
them, gave China technology that vasly improved the accuracy of their
ICBMs. And another bit was the classic submarine propeller machining
equipment.

Supercomputers are not a big deal. Pakistan developed its nuclear
program using beowulf clusters of desktop pcs.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From megao at sasktel.net  Fri Jun 10 17:33:55 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:33:55 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant on
	military activity?
In-Reply-To: <5A0431F5-5AB1-4F00-84F3-EC0E1D1E3918@mac.com>
References: <20050610153022.29245.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<E0AED3F2-9D7B-4F50-9956-3285DC594E9A@mac.com>
	<5A0431F5-5AB1-4F00-84F3-EC0E1D1E3918@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42A9CF03.1070108@sasktel.net>

While I fully support military development of technology the private 
sector cannot
or will not do on its own (such as the internet) , it appears that the 
price tag includes the global
production and maintenance of commercial war enterprises...... 
tinderboxes and hot wars in the "commercial
arena."

Just how would the global economy change if  the only tech developments that
were commercialized were on the ploughshare side of the
"swords and ploughshares"  pie?

Who has published work on this subject?

MFJ


Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Actually I apologize.  It is not that easy to find such links.  I was  
> thinking of some items (iirc) that we have sold like various military  
> helicopters, guidance systems, supercomputers, satellite technology  
> and so on.  We have also done some joint military exercises.  But  
> mostly Mike is right that we haven't stocked their major military  
> hardware.  There does seem to be a flow of arms from US to Israel to  
> China through back channels.  But most of the hardware they don't  
> build themselves seems to source from Russia.
>
> - s
>
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>> It is easy enough to find if you wish.  I will not spoon feed you.
>> On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "we helped them"? Could you provide details. Last I checked they
>>> weren't flying F-16s....
>>>
>>> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> IIRC we helped them build more than a little of that military
>>>> capacity so I seriously doubt these claims of surprise.  IMHO, the
>>>> only "surprise" is that they may be a bit harder to keep under our
>>>> thumb than anticipated.
>>>>
>>>> - s
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 9, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050609-120336-4092r.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Analysts missed Chinese buildup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By Bill Gertz
>>>>> THE WASHINGTON TIMES
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A highly classified intelligence report produced for the new
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> director
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> of national intelligence concludes that U.S. spy agencies failed to
>>>>> recognize several key military developments in China in the past
>>>>> decade, The Washington Times has learned.
>>>>>     The report was created by several current and former
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> intelligence
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> officials and concludes that U.S. agencies missed more than a dozen
>>>>> Chinese military developments, according to officials familiar with
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> report.
>>>>>     The report blames excessive secrecy on China's part for the
>>>>> failures, but critics say intelligence specialists are to blame for
>>>>> playing down or dismissing evidence of growing Chinese military
>>>>> capabilities.
>>>>>     The report comes as the Bush administration appears to have
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> become
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> more critical of China's military buildup.
>>>>>     Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in Singapore over the
>>>>> weekend that China has hidden its defense spending and is expanding
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> its
>>>>> missile forces despite facing no threats. Secretary of State
>>>>> Condoleezza Rice also expressed worries this week about China's
>>>>> expanding military capabilities.
>>>>>     Among the failures highlighted in the study are:
>>>>>     ?China's development of a new long-range cruise missile.
>>>>>     ?The deployment of a new warship equipped with a stolen Chinese
>>>>> version of the U.S. Aegis battle management technology.
>>>>>     ?Deployment of a new attack submarine known as the Yuan class
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> was missed by U.S. intelligence until photos of the submarine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> appeared
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> on the Internet.
>>>>>     ?Development of precision-guided munitions, including new
>>>>> air-to-ground missiles and new, more accurate warheads.
>>>>>     ?China's development of surface-to-surface missiles for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> targeting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups.
>>>>>     ?The importation of advanced weaponry, including Russian
>>>>> submarines, warships and fighter-bombers.
>>>>>     According to officials familiar with the intelligence report,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> word "surprise" is used more than a dozen times to describe U.S.
>>>>> failures to anticipate or discover Chinese arms development.
>>>>>     Many of the missed military developments will be contained in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Pentagon's annual report to Congress on the Chinese military, which
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> was
>>>>> due out March 1 but delayed by interagency disputes over its
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> contents.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     Critics of the study say the report unfairly blames
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> intelligence
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> collectors for not gathering solid information on the Chinese
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> military
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> and for failing to plant agents in the communist government.
>>>>>     Instead, these officials said, the report looks like a bid to
>>>>> exonerate analysts within the close-knit fraternity of government
>>>>> China
>>>>> specialists, who for the past 10 years dismissed or played down
>>>>> intelligence showing that Beijing was engaged in a major military
>>>>> buildup.
>>>>>     "This report conceals the efforts of dissenting analysts [in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> intelligence community] who argued that China was a threat," one
>>>>> official said, adding that covering up the failure of intelligence
>>>>> analysts on China would prevent a major reorganization of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     A former U.S. official said the report should help expose a
>>>>> "self-selected group" of specialists who fooled the U.S. government
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> on
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> China for 10 years.
>>>>>     "This group's desire to have good relations with China has
>>>>> prevented them from highlighting how little they know and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> suppressing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> occasional evidence that China views the United States as its main
>>>>> enemy."
>>>>>     The report has been sent to Thomas Fingar, a longtime
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> intelligence
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> analyst on China who was recently appointed by John D. Negroponte,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> new director of national intelligence, as his office's top
>>>>> intelligence
>>>>> analyst.
>>>>>     Mr. Negroponte has ordered a series of top-to-bottom reviews of
>>>>> U.S. intelligence capabilities in the aftermath of the critical
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> report
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> by the presidential commission headed by Judge Laurence Silberman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> former Sen. Charles Robb, Virginia Democrat.
>>>>>     According to the officials, the study was produced by a team of
>>>>> analysts for the intelligence contractor Centra Technologies.
>>>>>     Spokesmen for the CIA and Mr. Negroponte declined to comment.
>>>>>     Its main author is Robert Suettinger, a National Security
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Council
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> staff member for China during the Clinton administration and the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> intelligence community's top China analyst until 1998. Mr.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Suettinger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is traveling outside the country and could not be reached for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> comment,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> a spokesman said.
>>>>>     John Culver, a longtime CIA analyst on Asia, was the co-author.
>>>>>     Among those who took part in the study were former Defense
>>>>> Intelligence Agency analyst Lonnie Henley, who critics say was
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> among
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> those who in the past had dismissed concerns about China's military
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the past 10 years.
>>>>>     Also participating in the study was John F. Corbett, a former
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Army
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> intelligence analyst and attache who was a China policy-maker at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Pentagon during the Clinton administration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Lorrey
>>>>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>>>>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>>>>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>>>>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>>>>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Discover Yahoo!
>>>>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.
>>>>> Check it out!
>>>>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Lorrey
>>> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>>> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>>> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>>>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
>>> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Discover Yahoo!
>>> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend.  
>>> Check it out!
>>> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>



From megao at sasktel.net  Fri Jun 10 18:23:35 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:23:35 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant on
	military activity?
Message-ID: <42A9DAA7.7000708@sasktel.net>

What I mean is to delineate the point of diminishing  returns at which
testing out technology by military enterprises no longer serves the purpose
of yielding information from which to make more durable or efficient
 or yield  improved  technological innovations.

Putting AK47's and and landmines cannot possibly yield much towards an 
improved human condition.
Putting up a GPS satellite network does improve the human condition in 
measureable ways.

One could begin to classify global military activity into  a spectrum 
and rate the
societal or other  benefits,  short, medium and long term  of these 
activities.

This like QALY ratings for medical intervention economics  might yield a 
cost/benefit
system for military activity economics.

This might allow rationalization of global military economics.

MFJ


LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan 
<http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan>
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com 
<http://www.4xtralifespans.bravehost.com/>
megao at sasktel.net <mailto:megao at sasktel.net>,  arla_j at hotmail.com 
<mailto:arla_j at hotmail.com>, mfj.eav at gmail.com <mailto:mfj.eav at gmail.com>
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com <mailto:extropian.pharmer at gmail.com>

Extreme Life-Extension ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Leon Kass , Bioethics Advisor to George Herbert Walker Bush,
June 2005
- Hide quoted text -

 Radical Life-Extension Bioscience
+   Total Information Awareness Globalized Info-science
=   The 21st Century Paradigm    ........
Re-inventing the Human Condition from Quantum to Macro
*"I will live each 50 years, one at a time".... Morris Johnson - June 2005*

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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 10 20:23:24 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:23:24 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant
	on	military activity?
In-Reply-To: <42A9DAA7.7000708@sasktel.net>
References: <42A9DAA7.7000708@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <42A9F6BC.6010100@neopax.com>

Lifespan Pharma Inc. wrote:

> What I mean is to delineate the point of diminishing  returns at which
> testing out technology by military enterprises no longer serves the 
> purpose
> of yielding information from which to make more durable or efficient
>  or yield  improved  technological innovations.
>
> Putting AK47's and and landmines cannot possibly yield much towards an 
> improved human condition.
> Putting up a GPS satellite network does improve the human condition in 
> measureable ways.
>
> One could begin to classify global military activity into  a spectrum 
> and rate the
> societal or other  benefits,  short, medium and long term  of these 
> activities.
>
> This like QALY ratings for medical intervention economics  might yield 
> a cost/benefit
> system for military activity economics.
>
> This might allow rationalization of global military economics.

The problem is that actually deploying weapons has no economic benefit 
whatsoever - just the reverse.
If, say, the military obsession was replaced by a space colonisation 
obsession I think we would see all the benefits we currently get from 
military spending plus a 'deployment benefit' of vast magnitude.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From scerir at libero.it  Fri Jun 10 20:38:59 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:38:59 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] habitable zones
References: <20050610155424.25765.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c56dfc$6e61b350$b3c41b97@administxl09yj>

Galactic Gradients, Postbiological Evolution 
and the Apparent Failure of SETI
- Milan M. Cirkovic 
- Robert J. Bradbury
30 pages, 2 figures
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0506110
Motivated by recent developments impacting our view of Fermi's paradox
(absence of extraterrestrials and their manifestations from our past light
cone), we suggest a reassessment of the problem itself, as well as of
strategies employed by SETI projects so far. The need for such reevaluation
is fueled not only by the failure of searches thus far, but also by great
advances recently made in astrophysics, astrobiology, computer science and
future studies, which have remained largely ignored in SETI practice. As an
example of the new approach, we consider the effects of the observed
metallicity and temperature gradients in the Milky Way on the spatial
distribution of hypothetical advanced extraterrestrial intelligent
communities. While, obviously, properties of such communities and their
sociological and technological preferences are entirely unknown, we assume
that (1) they operate in agreement with the known laws of physics, and (2)
that at some point they typically become motivated by a meta-principle
embodying the central role of information-processing; a prototype of the
latter is the recently suggested Intelligence Principle of Steven J. Dick.
There are specific conclusions of practical interest to be drawn from
coupling of these reasonable assumptions with the astrophysical and
astrochemical structure of the Galaxy. In particular, we suggest that the
outer regions of the Galactic disk are most likely locations for advanced
SETI targets, and that intelligent communities will tend to migrate outward
through the Galaxy as their capacities of information-processing increase,
for both thermodynamical and astrochemical reasons. This can also be
regarded as a possible generalization of the Galactic Habitable Zone,
concept currently much investigated in astrobiology.




From megao at sasktel.net  Fri Jun 10 19:59:28 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:59:28 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant on
	military activity?
In-Reply-To: <42A9F6BC.6010100@neopax.com>
References: <42A9DAA7.7000708@sasktel.net> <42A9F6BC.6010100@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <42A9F120.1050507@sasktel.net>

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Lifespan Pharma Inc. wrote:
>
>> What I mean is to delineate the point of diminishing  returns at which
>> testing out technology by military enterprises no longer serves the 
>> purpose
>> of yielding information from which to make more durable or efficient
>>  or yield  improved  technological innovations.
>>
>> Putting AK47's and and landmines cannot possibly yield much towards 
>> an improved human condition.
>> Putting up a GPS satellite network does improve the human condition 
>> in measureable ways.
>>
>> One could begin to classify global military activity into  a spectrum 
>> and rate the
>> societal or other  benefits,  short, medium and long term  of these 
>> activities.
>>
>> This like QALY ratings for medical intervention economics  might 
>> yield a cost/benefit
>> system for military activity economics.
>>
>> This might allow rationalization of global military economics.
>
>
> The problem is that actually deploying weapons has no economic benefit 
> whatsoever - just the reverse.
> If, say, the military obsession was replaced by a space colonisation 
> obsession I think we would see all the benefits we currently get from 
> military spending plus a 'deployment benefit' of vast magnitude.
>
To date the "deployment benefit"   might be justified in the creation of 
a globalization of economics and
social structures but what I suggest is that it  should be quantified as 
to  the exact costing  of this exercise.

Just like a  QALY  (Quality Adjusted Life Year) of say $1,000,000  being 
unjustifyable in most cases by a public healthcare system a similar 
QAMTE (Quality Adjusted Military Technology Event) should seek to 
measure the cost VS the
measureable impacts.

One could do historical practice case studies such as "WW2",  'The 
Berlin Wall" , "The formation of the EU" or "Iraq invasion"
to get a feel for the methodology, then apply the model to current and 
future "Military Technology Business Cases".

MFJ


LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan 
<http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan>
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com 
<http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com>
megao at sasktel.net <mailto:megao at sasktel.net>,  arla_j at hotmail.com 
<mailto:arla_j at hotmail.com>, mfj.eav at gmail.com <mailto:mfj.eav at gmail.com>
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com <mailto:extropian.pharmer at gmail.com>

Extreme Life-Extension ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Leon Kass , Bioethics Advisor to George Herbert Walker Bush

 Radical Life-Extension Bioscience
+Total Information Awareness Globalized Info-science
=The 21st Century Paradigm.....
Re-inventing the Human Condition from Quantum to Macro
***"I will live each 50 years, one at a time".... Morris Johnson - June 
2005***

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 21:00:26 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:00:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant on
	military activity?
In-Reply-To: <42A9DAA7.7000708@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <20050610210027.85296.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "Lifespan Pharma Inc." <megao at sasktel.net> wrote:

> What I mean is to delineate the point of diminishing  returns at
> which testing out technology by military enterprises no longer
> serves the purpose
> of yielding information from which to make more durable or efficient
>  or yield  improved  technological innovations.

Cruise missiles result in affordable small turbine engines for civil
aviation and efficient micropower cogeneration, as well as terrain
recognition software that is useful for environmental analysis,
searching for missing hikers.

> 
> Putting AK47's and and landmines cannot possibly yield much towards
> an improved human condition.

Ah, but developing land mines whose detonator squibs decompose over
time makes for safe landscapes after wars end without a lot of work. An
AK-47 in the hand of every person helps ensure that tyrannical world
government will be a very expensive proposition. It is interesting that
a very simple means of detecting mines has been found: plants that grow
with different colors based on the nitrogen content of the soil....

> Putting up a GPS satellite network does improve the human condition
> in measureable ways.

Except when it involves governments GPS tracking every one of their
citizens. As Vinge warned, localizer technologies are more a tech of
tyranny than not.

> 
> One could begin to classify global military activity into  a spectrum
> and rate the
> societal or other  benefits,  short, medium and long term  of these 
> activities.
> 
> This like QALY ratings for medical intervention economics  might
> yield a cost/benefit system for military activity economics.
> 
> This might allow rationalization of global military economics.

There are certainly lots of spin-off technologies, from rocketry to
computers, avionics, rescue, submarines, much medical trauma technology
etc.. There was a tv show on last year that detailed many such. While
military investment in such technologies is easy to make when there is
no profit motive, only strategic or tactical motive, it is questionable
whether private industry couldn't develop the same thing without
government contracting.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 10 21:08:21 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] What % of global economic activity is dependant on
	military activity?
In-Reply-To: <42A9F120.1050507@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <20050610210821.68750.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- "Lifespan Pharma Inc." <megao at sasktel.net> wrote:

> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> >
> > The problem is that actually deploying weapons has no economic
> > benefit whatsoever - just the reverse.

Depends on what the deployment is for. If it is just makework to bases
that are kept open for the benefit of congressmen, you are right. If it
is a deployment to an area that needs peacekeeping or protection from
hostile invasion, there is a massive economic benefit, primarily in the
form of avoided disopportunity costs (i.e. the economic devastation of
invasion and ongoing warfare). "In Irons" is a good book detailing the
economic devastation of the Revolutionary War period on the colonial
economies, which went from being the most vibrant in the world before
the war to basketcases within 5 years.

> > If, say, the military obsession was replaced by a space
> > colonisation obsession I think we would see all the benefits we
> > currently get from 
> > military spending plus a 'deployment benefit' of vast magnitude.
> >
> To date the "deployment benefit"   might be justified in the creation
> of a globalization of economics and
> social structures but what I suggest is that it  should be quantified
> as to  the exact costing  of this exercise.

Space colonization would be more beneficial (unless of course colonies
fought each other, which may not be out of the question) to be sure, so
I tend to disregard as pollyannish those who disparage space programs
that are based on nationalist pride. Patriotism can be ugly, but it can
accomplish great things too.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html


From rhanson at gmu.edu  Fri Jun 10 22:56:00 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:56:00 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>

Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new
post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current tasks.

My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can enable
me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By
temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to manage
other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.

Here are the ten main choices as I see them now:

1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and related papers
into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in real
disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This could
establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as there are
still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real competition on this
topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely not aligned
with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change much in the world.

2. Medicine Book - Expand "Showing That You Care" into a book, making as
clear as possible to a wide audience the point that medicine doesn't help
them on the usual margin.  Alas, this is not a message people want to hear,
and I may not learn much doing this.

3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers analyzing
the social implications of future technologies, particularly uploads.  Then
write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know of a more important policy
question, and no one else is doing this.  But it is not clear that making
more people aware of these issues will produce better policy; future tech is
usually treated symbolically, and this often makes things worse.

4. Idea Futures book - present the grand vision of idea futures solving many
problems.  Someone else is ahead of me with a similar book, and not sure a
popular book shouldn't wait until there is more real progress to report.  I
wouldn't learn much doing this.  But this is what I am now most famous for.

5. No subject book - just start writing and see what the book turns out to
be about.

6. Demo Combo Betting - Write software to clearly demonstrate my vision of
combinatorial markets, then sell the tech or give it away.  If I don't do
this it may be many years until others do it.  And this tech can dramatically
lower the cost of idea futures, allowing many more uses.  But this may not
be the limiting factor to wider use.  Software needs little money, and is
fully under my control, but I left software long ago because I preferred to
ponder.

7. Decision Markets Application - Solicit funds for and create a big set of
real money markets on an important policy area, to clearly demonstrate by
example the value of decision markets.  Might be on health policy, global
warming, foreign aid, or other big public policy area.  Or might focus on
policies of big corporations.  Would require me to be more of a manager,
which may not be my strong suit.  Others may well do this if I do not.

8. Media Controversy Track Records - Based on my PAM press paper.  Solicit
funds for and create a institute dedicated to collecting a track record on
who turned out to be right in media controversies.  Use this to infer
indicators of who tends to be right, and then use those indicators to create
a press watch service predicting where future opinion will go in current
controversies.  Can then solicit donations to support the inclusion of donor
topics of interest.  Good idea, but not clear I'm the right person to do it.

9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure out if
my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep mystery of quantum
mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% chance I'm right, but if I am,
and I take the time to explain myself clearly, would establish a strong
reputation as a deep thinker.  Should know one way or other in 3 years.
Would be fun, though not clear it has any practical implications.

10. Something New - Relax, read widely for a year or two, and then re-examine
the question.





Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Jun 11 00:30:32 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:30:32 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Obituary: Thomas Gold
Message-ID: <42AA30A8.1010000@mindspring.com>

*FT* 196, June 2005

Necrolog

Controversial physicist Thomas Gold was worthy of fortean respect.
Bob Rickard celebrates the life of this important 'contrarian'.

Thomas Gold

Thomas Gold was that rare thing; a fortean among scientists, attracted to
anomalies in the conventional wisdom and not afraid to research them beyond
the confines of his scientific disciplines.

Gold came to Cambridge University from Austria just before World War II.
Despite spending a year in a British internment camp as a suspected enemy
alien, he returned to study astronomy at Trinity College, Cambridge, and to
help develop radar for the British Admiralty.  While he was at Cambridge,
he made friends with Fred Hoyle, Hermann Bondi (whom he met in the
internment camp) and Francis Crick, among many other now famous names
in science.

Gold went on to teach at Cornell, Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford and
Princeton; was Chief Assistant to Britain's Astronomer Royal and for
seven years was a member of the US President's Space Science Panel;
and gave prestigious lectures to the Royal Astronomical Society and
NASA.  He became Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Cornell
University and for 20 years directed the Cornell Center for
Radiophysics and Space Research which he founded.  He even
oversaw the construction of the world's largest radio telescope, in
Arecibo, Puerto Rico.  Among his honours were Fellowships of the
Royal Society, the American Geophysical Union, and Trinity
College, Cambridge, where he took his original doctorate.

Gold quickly gained a reputation as one of the 20th century's greatest
'contrarians' as his fresh and incisive analyses would lead to provocative
ideas--ranging from the cosmological to the geophysical--that, more often
than not, brought the disapproval of his more traditional colleagues.  His
earliest success came in 1946; while at Cambridge he developed a new
theory of hearing, proposing a mechanism by which the tiny hair cells
act as amplifiers in the inner ear.  This was not confirmed until the 1970s.

In 1948, reprising the team that worked on radar for the Admiralty, Gold
joined Hoyle and Bondi to develop the 'steady-state' theory, which held
that the Universe was under constant construction with no beginning or end.
It became the dominant view in cosmology until the 1960s, when the
discoveries of quasars (in late 1950s) and microwave background
radiation (in 1965) reinforced the 'big bang' explanation that the
Universe is expanding from an original singularity.

Gold was disappointed, but characteristically unfazed, moving on to other
work.  In 1968, he correctly identified pulsars as rapidly rotating neutron
stars with strong magnetic fields.  He also coined the term 'magnetosphere'
for the envelope of Earth's magnetic fields.

Gold sparked controversy again in 1955, when he was designing the stereo
camera used on the lunar surface by the US astronauts.  At that time, the
lunar plains were believed to be of volcanic lava, but Gold suggested that
the surface could be covered with a deep layer of fine rock powder.  His
enemies seized on this, ridiculing him for predicting that the lunar
astronauts and lander would sink out of sight into the dust.  Interviewed
before his death, Gold was still angry about this "slander", pointing out
the obvious: that time and the action of cosmic rays would tend to harden
the dust.  He was vindicated in 1969, when the Apollo 11 crew brought
the first samples of lunar soil back to Earth.

Perhaps his most heretical theory challenged the prevailing ideas concerning
the origin of oil, coal and natural gas.  He proposed that in the depths 
of the
Earth's crust was a second realm of life, a "deep hot biosphere" in which
archaic bacteria thrived in temperatures well above 100 degrees Celsius,
living off methane and other hydrocarbons six to 10 km (3.7-6.2 miles)
down.  This theory was launched in a 1992 paper in the *Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences* and expanded in his 1998 book _The Deep
Hot Biosphere_.  "I'd submitted it to *Nature* in 1988, but they wouldn't
publish it," he said later.

In the traditional view, oil, coal and natural gas are the residue of dead
plants and creatures from swamps and seabeds, 'cooked' under great
geological pressure over vast spans of time.  In any case, surface life
was not supposed to have penetrated the Earth more than a few hundred
metres.  Gold, however, maintained that oil, coal and natural gas were
incorporated into the Earth at great depths during its early formation,
possibly from meteoric impact as icy meteors are known to contain
masses of hydrocarbons.  Instead of dead creatures turning into
hydrocarbons when buried, Gold says the hydrocarbons are fuel on which
the deep creatures live.

Most Western geologist and petrologists consider Gold's ideas hugely
controversial, insisting that the biogenic theory of fossil fuel formation
adequately explains all observed fossil fuel deposits.  However, recent
discoveries of life on the ocean floors, making use of the normally toxic
chemicals from volcanic vents, and of archaic bacteria found in deep
holes from the Columbia River basalts of Washington to the oil wells
of the North Sea and South African gold mines, all seem to confirm
the basis of Gold's revisions.

Gold firmly believed that his theory accounted for a range of anomalies,
such as the presence of helium in oil (although it has no affinity with
organic material) and the presence of magnetite in oil.  Magnetite is a
chemically reduced form of iron oxide--evidence, says Gold, that
microbes have used its oxygen as they live off the oil, leaving behind
tiny grains of magnetite.  Another anomaly that puzzled Gold was
obvious in retrospect: that all over the world oil is being drilled in
sediments that vary region to region, differing in age and composition.
There is no sedimentary material that is uniform to all oilfields and yet
oil is fairly consistent whatever its provenance.  These led him to the
conclusion that oil might not be derived from organic matter but might
have a single, more consistent and therefore much older origin.

Between 1986 and 1993, Gold's ideas were tested by deep drilling in a
meteoric crater in Sweden called the Siljan Ring (*FT* correspondent
Sven Rosen was quick to tell us that this perfectly circular formation
had dragon legends associated with it.)  Below the crater, at a depth of
5-7km (3-4.3 miles) were solid granite beds.  They had crystallised out
of molten lava and therefore should not contain any organic remains, yet
they yielded 80 barrels of natural oil.  Detractors claimed the oil must
have seeped down from higher levels--yet, as Gold answered, the shale
beds of that area "were nowhere deeper than 300 meters, [984ft] while
I was down at 6.7 kilometers [4.2 miles]".

Gold says the first core samples reached him in Mallorca at a weekend
when all the facilities were shut and he had to improvise a test.  Using
hot water and kitchen detergent as a solvent and kitchen tissue roll as a
'chromatogram', he separated metallic solids from the sludge.  To test
for iron he unscrewed the catches off a kitchen cabinet to hold under
some aluminum foil holding liquid sludge.  The grains of magnetite
formed in a magnetic field.

Since then, Russian petroleum geologists have reported finding oil in wells
drilled more than 5km (3 miles) deep in the central part of the crystalline
Baltic Shield and they have credited Gold with inspiring them to look there.
More than 300 deep wells are under way in Russian Tartarstan and others
in Vietnam's giant offshore White Tiger field, all reported to be 
productive.

One important consequence of Gold's deep hot biosphere is still 
reverberating
in the realm of oil production and international finance.  The biogenic 
theory
of oil production and international finance.  The biogenic theory of oil 
led to
the belief that it would eventually 'run out', which is what is keeping oil
prices artificially high.  If Gold is correct, the reserves of deep natural
oil are vastly in excess of the 'normal' quantities estimated by the gas and
petroleum industry.  But Gold has more good news: in a recent interview he
claimed that "some geologists agree that fields are refilling themselves,
though they won't openly admit it."  Gold believes that his can only be
because the reduction in pressure in the higher reservoir is drawing more up
from deeper layers.

Gold's theory of an active deep biosphere has yet other, wider-ranging
implications for the prevalence of life, or at least, its basic building 
blocks,
in the Universe.  Recent astronomical observations have detected large
amounts of hydrocarbons on various planetary bodies in the Solar System.

In 1996, when the analysis of the so-called 'meteorite from Mars'--
designated ALH84001--revealed the presence of small traces of magnetite,
sulphides, oil and calcite cement in close proximity, Gold immediately
noticed that his combination was typical of borehole shale.  Not only did
this imply that Mars could contain deep oil but that Martian bacteria must
have lived off it to produce the magnetite residue.  To Gold, it was clear
that a lifeless surface need not have a lifeless interior.

Gold thought the Moon, too, has a deep biosphere--as may many of the other
satellites in our Solar System, such as Triton, Pluto and Charon.  He 
not only
endorsed the idea that meteors and meteorites play a part in transmitting
primitive life-forms through the Universe, but predicted that life could 
also
be spread by a new kind of wandering planet, travelling between star systems
and even galaxies, that was not formed within any planetary system and not
tied to a star by gravity.  It was natural, he argued, for a physicist to
gravitate towards questions about the origins of life and how it works.
As for the life on Earth, he said: "If life developed down below, it could
later crawl up to the surface and invent photosynthesis."


British astronomer and physicist, born Vienna, Austria, 22 May 1920; died
Ithaca, NY, 22 June 2004, aged 84.


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From sentience at pobox.com  Sat Jun 11 02:10:52 2005
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:10:52 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42AA482C.2090108@pobox.com>

Robin Hanson wrote:
> Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new 
> post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your 
> advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current 
> tasks.
> 
> My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can enable 
> me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By 
> temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to manage 
> other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.
> 
> 1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and related papers
>  into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in real 
> disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This could 
> establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as there 
> are still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real competition on
> this topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely not
> aligned with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change much in
> the world.

What I would most advise you to do for yourself is the Disagreement Book.  As 
you learned the hard way, it's difficult to sell something that people don't 
want to buy.  I wish I could propound something as easy to accept as modesty, 
and I've sometimes considered writing a book on rationality for the same 
reason - just to get the benefits of tackling a tractable problem.  People are 
ready to be told that modesty is a good thing.  This is itself a bias, which 
is why I tend to disagree with you about how to handle disagreement - but if 
you pitch the book toward the popular-level, this book will probably sell 
better than anything else you're considering writing.  If you're planning a 
technical book or a book pitched at academia then you'd know better than I 
would what would best establish your reputation.

> 9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure out if 
> my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep mystery of 
> quantum mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% chance I'm right, but
> if I am, and I take the time to explain myself clearly, would establish a
> strong reputation as a deep thinker.  Should know one way or other in 3
> years. Would be fun, though not clear it has any practical implications.

This is the book I'm most interested in myself, in a purely selfish sense.  It 
is also the most difficult and the most risky.

 > 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers
 > analyzing the social implications of future technologies, particularly
 > uploads.  Then write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know of a more
 > important policy question, and no one else is doing this.  But it is not
 > clear that making more people aware of these issues will produce better
 > policy; future tech is usually treated symbolically, and this often makes
 > things worse.

Yeah.  Pretty much.  Probably the only real benefit to be derived from the 
book would be to pump generic academic respectability into advanced futurism.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From dirk at neopax.com  Sat Jun 11 02:30:46 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:30:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42AA4CD6.9040105@neopax.com>

Robin Hanson wrote:

> Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new
> post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
> advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current 
> tasks.
>
> My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can 
> enable
> me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By
> temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to manage
> other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.
>
> Here are the ten main choices as I see them now:
>
> 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers 
> analyzing
> the social implications of future technologies, particularly uploads.  
> Then
> write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know of a more important 
> policy
> question, and no one else is doing this.  But it is not clear that making
> more people aware of these issues will produce better policy; future 
> tech is
> usually treated symbolically, and this often makes things worse.
>
I suggest a more modest variant on an analysis of future tech.
Namely, the impact of populations with genetically (or otherwise) 
enhanced intelligence.
Consider the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ

Take it from there.
Then throw in the effects of longevity - is it a plus or minus?

It would certainly make an impact and unlike uploading, people will 
relate to it almost immediately since the tech is starting to come 
together right now.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 08/06/2005



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 11 04:11:31 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:11:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <42AA482C.2090108@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20050611041131.35474.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I would keep the idea futures book in the works, with special work on
the PAM. It should be ready to hit the presses if and when a new major
terror attack happens. This would get you on all the news programs,
testifying before congress, etc. and you can point the finger at those
who killed the PAM.

--- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience at pobox.com> wrote:

> Robin Hanson wrote:
> > Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on
> a new 
> > post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit
> your 
> > advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my
> current 
> > tasks.
> > 
> > My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can
> enable 
> > me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By
> 
> > temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to
> manage 
> > other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.
> > 
> > 1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and
> related papers
> >  into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in
> real 
> > disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This
> could 
> > establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as
> there 
> > are still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real
> competition on
> > this topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely
> not
> > aligned with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change
> much in
> > the world.
> 
> What I would most advise you to do for yourself is the Disagreement
> Book.  As 
> you learned the hard way, it's difficult to sell something that
> people don't 
> want to buy.  I wish I could propound something as easy to accept as
> modesty, 
> and I've sometimes considered writing a book on rationality for the
> same 
> reason - just to get the benefits of tackling a tractable problem. 
> People are 
> ready to be told that modesty is a good thing.  This is itself a
> bias, which 
> is why I tend to disagree with you about how to handle disagreement -
> but if 
> you pitch the book toward the popular-level, this book will probably
> sell 
> better than anything else you're considering writing.  If you're
> planning a 
> technical book or a book pitched at academia then you'd know better
> than I 
> would what would best establish your reputation.
> 
> > 9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure
> out if 
> > my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep mystery
> of 
> > quantum mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% chance I'm
> right, but
> > if I am, and I take the time to explain myself clearly, would
> establish a
> > strong reputation as a deep thinker.  Should know one way or other
> in 3
> > years. Would be fun, though not clear it has any practical
> implications.
> 
> This is the book I'm most interested in myself, in a purely selfish
> sense.  It 
> is also the most difficult and the most risky.
> 
>  > 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers
>  > analyzing the social implications of future technologies,
> particularly
>  > uploads.  Then write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know
> of a more
>  > important policy question, and no one else is doing this.  But it
> is not
>  > clear that making more people aware of these issues will produce
> better
>  > policy; future tech is usually treated symbolically, and this
> often makes
>  > things worse.
> 
> Yeah.  Pretty much.  Probably the only real benefit to be derived
> from the 
> book would be to pump generic academic respectability into advanced
> futurism.
> 
> -- 
> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
> Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 11 04:29:20 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:29:20 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] CHINA: Threat proponents not chicken littles...
In-Reply-To: <20050610175045.19811.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506110429.j5B4T9R01332@tick.javien.com>

Do let us keep it civil please.  spike

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey
...
> Which means you are full of it.
> 
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> > It is easy enough to find if you wish.  I will not spoon feed you.




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jun 11 04:42:48 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:42:48 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] COSMOS Magazine 
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

http://www.locusmag.com/ :


   Magazine News

New Australian popular science magazine 
<http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/>Cosmos has named Damien Broderick fiction 
editor. The premiere issue, July 2005, goes on sale June 22 in Australia, 
July 4 in New Zealand. Broderick's first selection, by Gregory Benford, 
will appear in issue #2.



From hal at finney.org  Sat Jun 11 04:43:39 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:43:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
Message-ID: <20050611044339.B230357E8C@finney.org>

Robin Hanson writes:
> 1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and related papers
> into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in real
> disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This could
> establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as there are
> still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real competition on this
> topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely not aligned
> with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change much in the world.
>
> 2. Medicine Book - Expand "Showing That You Care" into a book, making as
> clear as possible to a wide audience the point that medicine doesn't help
> them on the usual margin.  Alas, this is not a message people want to hear,
> and I may not learn much doing this.

I like these two.  You could combine them and call it the Cassandra
Project, after the Greek heroine who could tell amazing truths about
the future but was cursed never to be believed.  Fill the book with
things like this, truths that people can't and won't accept.

That's what I'd like to see, however it has only a small chance of
satisfying your goal of changing the world.

> 6. Demo Combo Betting - Write software to clearly demonstrate my vision of
> combinatorial markets, then sell the tech or give it away.  If I don't do
> this it may be many years until others do it.  And this tech can dramatically
> lower the cost of idea futures, allowing many more uses.  But this may not
> be the limiting factor to wider use.  Software needs little money, and is
> fully under my control, but I left software long ago because I preferred to
> ponder.

As a professor, can't you get students to work for you?  Maybe you could
have a student develop the software to your specs.  I seem to remember
lots of professors who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag
getting hot shot students to build great-looking demos of their ideas.
You can still ponder, you just have to look over their shoulder from
time to time and make unhelpful suggestions while you stroke your beard
(you do have to grow a beard for this one).

Anyway, I'm being a little facetious.  It's hard for me to take seriously
an appeal about how to change the world.  That's such a difficult task
and the odds against it so great that it seems kind of odd to seriously
make a plan for how to accomplish it.

However, given that this is your goal, I would say that you need to
expect it to take time.  One man exerts only a small influence on the
world, so you have to work over a period of many years in order to make
a significant change.  Your IF concept seems to bring many of your
ideas together.  It provides a mechanism for revealing truths about
the future that bypasses many of our social controls that protect the
conventional wisdom.  It seems to be the most promising direction.

I would suggest in general pursuing projects related to this concept,
continuing to write about it and develop it, look for partnerships with
other groups in getting sample applications into place.  Plan to spend
the rest of your working life on the single minded goal of getting people
to use betting markets to reveal truths that can't come out in other ways.

You don't have to be the manager or the instigator, you can be a
consultant.  I've known a lot of professors who made very good livings
via consulting work.  But you do need a reputation and your expertise has
to be in demand.

You have a good rep but the technology is not yet accepted.  So I think
that is where you need to focus: you have to try to popularize, evangelize
and proselytize for Idea Futures.  Write op-eds pointing to successes.
Get pilot projects going.  Get your students working on this stuff.
Just keep pushing it.

This is where you've had your biggest success so far, and it's where you
will have the most leverage in terms of trying to make it even bigger.
I'd say this is definitely your best path for changing the world.
And as I said it has lots of good side effects on your other interests.
Cassandra may still not be believed but for her trouble at least she
will be able to get rich.

Hal


From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jun 11 05:51:46 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:51:46 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-E5C62724DA3C11D9A755000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/10/05 18:56) Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:

>Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new
>post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
>advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current tasks.
>
>
>Here are the ten main choices as I see them now:
>



I'd be most interested in (2) and in (1), in that order. I'm moderately interested in see what would happen with (6) and (7), but those pose a bit more risk for you. I would recommend strongly staying well away from (9), unless you can find a collaborator who has a (good) reputation in physics to work with.  Too many really bright folks try to tackle problems like this and wind up looking like morons (Roger Penrose comes to mind).

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Jun 11 05:55:22 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <20050611044339.B230357E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <20050611055522.42742.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Hal Finney <hal at finney.org> wrote:
> You can still ponder, you just have to look over their shoulder from
> time to time and make unhelpful suggestions while you stroke your
> beard
> (you do have to grow a beard for this one).

Been there, done that - though not in an academic situation.  Stroking
one's shaved chin will do in a pinch, especially if you can keep them
focussed on their work instead of looking at you.  Or even the emote
"*strokes chin*" if you're managing via email and chat (and only
occasional phone or FTF)...although you do have to use emotes normally,
so it doesn't stick out (but don't overdo it either: it's like spicing
a soup).  ;)


From pgptag at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 07:54:56 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:54:56 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <470a3c5205061100547bf3f5f2@mail.gmail.com>

Robin,
I believe these are all extremely interesting projects. Whatever book
you write from this list, I will be among the first to buy and read.
I was not aware of the "mangled worlds" approach to MWI, I plan to
read both papers that you mention in
http://hanson.gmu.edu/mangledworlds.html
I would be very interested in 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book, which
has possibly the highest future impact. As you say, "I don't know of a
more important policy question, and no one else is doing this".
In terms of media resonance and short term impact, I think you could
not do better than choosing 4. Idea Futures book and 6. Demo Combo
Betting, and focus on the late lamented PAM. The T word will attract
readers and press, you will be invited to talk shows and this can help
advancing all your other ideas.
But I believe the real question is - what do you *want* to do. If as I
suspect you are unable to make up your mind between many books that
you wish to write, perhaps the best choice is 5. No subject book -
just start writing and see what the book turns out to be about. In the
no subject book you could touch all these things, and separate
chapters can later spawn new books.
G.



On 6/11/05, Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new
> post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
> advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current tasks.
> 
> My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can enable
> me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By
> temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to manage
> other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Here are the ten main choices as I see them now:
> 
> 1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and related papers
> into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in real
> disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This could
> establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as there are
> still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real competition on this
> topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely not aligned
> with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change much in the world.
> 
> 2. Medicine Book - Expand "Showing That You Care" into a book, making as
> clear as possible to a wide audience the point that medicine doesn't help
> them on the usual margin.  Alas, this is not a message people want to hear,
> and I may not learn much doing this.
> 
> 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers analyzing
> the social implications of future technologies, particularly uploads.  Then
> write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know of a more important policy
> question, and no one else is doing this.  But it is not clear that making
> more people aware of these issues will produce better policy; future tech is
> usually treated symbolically, and this often makes things worse.
> 
> 4. Idea Futures book - present the grand vision of idea futures solving many
> problems.  Someone else is ahead of me with a similar book, and not sure a
> popular book shouldn't wait until there is more real progress to report.  I
> wouldn't learn much doing this.  But this is what I am now most famous for.
> 
> 5. No subject book - just start writing and see what the book turns out to
> be about.
> 
> 6. Demo Combo Betting - Write software to clearly demonstrate my vision of
> combinatorial markets, then sell the tech or give it away.  If I don't do
> this it may be many years until others do it.  And this tech can dramatically
> lower the cost of idea futures, allowing many more uses.  But this may not
> be the limiting factor to wider use.  Software needs little money, and is
> fully under my control, but I left software long ago because I preferred to
> ponder.
> 
> 7. Decision Markets Application - Solicit funds for and create a big set of
> real money markets on an important policy area, to clearly demonstrate by
> example the value of decision markets.  Might be on health policy, global
> warming, foreign aid, or other big public policy area.  Or might focus on
> policies of big corporations.  Would require me to be more of a manager,
> which may not be my strong suit.  Others may well do this if I do not.
> 
> 8. Media Controversy Track Records - Based on my PAM press paper.  Solicit
> funds for and create a institute dedicated to collecting a track record on
> who turned out to be right in media controversies.  Use this to infer
> indicators of who tends to be right, and then use those indicators to create
> a press watch service predicting where future opinion will go in current
> controversies.  Can then solicit donations to support the inclusion of donor
> topics of interest.  Good idea, but not clear I'm the right person to do it.
> 
> 9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure out if
> my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep mystery of quantum
> mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% chance I'm right, but if I am,
> and I take the time to explain myself clearly, would establish a strong
> reputation as a deep thinker.  Should know one way or other in 3 years.
> Would be fun, though not clear it has any practical implications.
> 
> 10. Something New - Relax, read widely for a year or two, and then re-examine
> the question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
> Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
> MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
> 703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Sat Jun 11 08:16:39 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:16:39 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
Message-ID: <20050611081639.95075.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure >out if my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep >mystery of quantum mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% >chance I'm right, but if I am, and I take the time to explain myself >clearly, would establish a strong reputation as a deep thinker.  Should >know one way or other in 3 years.  Would be fun, though not clear it >has any practical implications.
 
That sounds the most exciting and intriguing.  What are 'Mangled Worlds'?  What's the relation to the MWI of QM?
 
I do think on practical grounds that (1) is your best option though.  I'd like to see a book on rationality and I think it woud sell well.  I wonder, is there some way you could combine (1) with (9) ?  After all, aren't epistemology and metaphysics connected?  Would there be any implications of 'Mangled Worlds' for probability theory?  (Remember:  MWI does seem to be the 'natural' interpretation for Bayesian reasoning doesn't it)?  Perhaps you could write your book focusing on (1) but including some of your ideas for (9).
 
In fact, perhaps you could combine the PAM ideas, the Managed Worlds ideas AND the ideas about rationality in one book.  Develop a comprehensible new philosophy for all existence.
 
For an example of how you might be able to weave together metaphysics, epistemology, ethics and politics, see a brief essay I wrote for 'Transhumanity' a while back:
 
http://transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/461/
 
Actually, your best bet for changing the world is to go for broke and devote all your time and energy to creating the world's first Friendly Artificial Intelligence ;)
 
 
 
 


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---
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From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Sat Jun 11 11:27:05 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:27:05 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <8d71341e050611042770966552@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/10/05, Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on a new
> post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
> advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my current tasks.

To me, Mangled Worlds is the most interesting of these topics - that's
the one I'd happily buy a book on.

Of course, given that you'll be spending years on this, it's more
important to pick something you find interesting; that part, I can't
advise you on - but perhaps try, say, spending a few days on each and
then look back and see which you liked best?

- Russell


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Sat Jun 11 12:32:26 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:32:26 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] COSMOS Magazine
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42AAD9DA.3050807@humanenhancement.com>

Hey, Hey!

Congratulations, Damien! Well done!

Joseph

Damien Broderick wrote:

> http://www.locusmag.com/ :
>
>
>   Magazine News
>
> New Australian popular science magazine 
> <http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/>Cosmos has named Damien Broderick 
> fiction editor. The premiere issue, July 2005, goes on sale June 22 in 
> Australia, July 4 in New Zealand. Broderick's first selection, by 
> Gregory Benford, will appear in issue #2.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Jun 11 15:20:50 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:20:50 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <20050611044339.B230357E8C@finney.org>
References: <20050611044339.B230357E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611111634.0304d5f0@mail.gmu.edu>

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments.  I will ponder them and the
dozens of other comments I'm getting carefully before making a decision.

At 12:43 AM 6/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote:
> > 6. Demo Combo Betting - Write software to clearly demonstrate my vision of
> > combinatorial markets, then sell the tech or give it away.  ...
>
>As a professor, can't you get students to work for you?  Maybe you could
>have a student develop the software to your specs.  I seem to remember
>lots of professors who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag
>getting hot shot students to build great-looking demos of their ideas.

Well if I were a computer science prof at a top school, that might work.
But as an economics prof at a middling school, the students I can get
just aren't good enough to make that approach worth the bother.  Better to
get funding and then hire a professional to do it.


Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Jun 11 15:25:43 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:25:43 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <42AA4CD6.9040105@neopax.com>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
	<42AA4CD6.9040105@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>

At 10:30 PM 6/10/2005, Dirk Bruere wrote:
>>3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers analyzing
>>the social implications of future technologies, particularly uploads.
>I suggest a more modest variant on an analysis of future tech.
>Namely, the impact of populations with genetically (or otherwise) enhanced 
>intelligence.
>Consider the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations"
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ
>Take it from there.
>Then throw in the effects of longevity - is it a plus or minus?
>It would certainly make an impact and unlike uploading, people will relate 
>to it almost immediately since the tech is starting to come together right now.

What most needs analysis are changes that are not captured in existing
trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had effects for a long time.
So all of the existing trend-based analysis already captures a big
similar effect.  The effects of the upload transition are not, however,
much captured in existing trends.



Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Jun 11 15:57:52 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:57:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] TV05 - Video/Film Festival Submissions
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611095904.02970280@pop-server.austin.rr.com>


TV05
TransVision 2005

"My advice to young film-makers is this: Don't follow trends, Start 
them!"   Frank Capra
"That's the challenge, to make it romantic and not sappy." Sofia Coppola
"Somewhere between chance and mystery lies imagination, the only thing that 
protects our freedom..."  Luis Bu?uel
"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the passion of 
life." Federico Fellini

Attention:  Media Artists, Directors and Producers

We are once again exhibiting the moving image works of filmmakers, 
videographers, and multi-media artists, at TransVision 2005.

If you would like to enter your works, please contact me at your earliest 
convenience!  The entry form is located at 
http://www.transhumanist.biz/entryform.htm  Please do not use the curator's 
email address, as it is currently not functioning.

Thank you and we look forward to exhibiting your moving images.

Create!

Natasha Vita-More
Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz


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From dirk at neopax.com  Sat Jun 11 16:02:02 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:02:02 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>	<42AA4CD6.9040105@neopax.com>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42AB0AFA.6020200@neopax.com>

Robin Hanson wrote:

> At 10:30 PM 6/10/2005, Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
>>> 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers 
>>> analyzing
>>> the social implications of future technologies, particularly uploads.
>>
>> I suggest a more modest variant on an analysis of future tech.
>> Namely, the impact of populations with genetically (or otherwise) 
>> enhanced intelligence.
>> Consider the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ
>> Take it from there.
>> Then throw in the effects of longevity - is it a plus or minus?
>> It would certainly make an impact and unlike uploading, people will 
>> relate to it almost immediately since the tech is starting to come 
>> together right now.
>
>
> What most needs analysis are changes that are not captured in existing
> trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had effects for a long time.

At around 3 points per decade.
I think that when that suddenly accelerates to 30 points per decade we 
will see a discontinuity where a quantitative change precipitates a 
qualitative one. Also, such engineering will probably be the hottest 
political topic this century.

> So all of the existing trend-based analysis already captures a big
> similar effect.  The effects of the upload transition are not, however,
> much captured in existing trends.
>
Because the tech is not a gradual process.
It either works and is available, or it isn't.
Plus I don't see it being feasible within 30yrs.
Any writing you do on it will go into the SF section of the bookshop.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 11/06/2005



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 11 17:07:01 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:07:01 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] you owe it to me to be funny:  was IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <42AB0AFA.6020200@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <200506111706.j5BH6oR09638@tick.javien.com>

> ... Dirk Bruere
> > What most needs analysis are changes that are not captured in existing
> > trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had effects for a long time.
> 
> At around 3 points per decade...

I had always assumed that this effect was a sort of 
optical illusion caused by our increasing ability to
take IQ tests, perhaps from schools emphasizing such
training, but I am now rethinking that notion.

On a recent trip to Oregon, I listened to recordings
of old time comedy routines, classic stuff that has
survived the ages: Who's On First by Abbott and Costello,
off-color gags by WC Fields and Mae West, Fibber McGee
and Molly, etc, riffs from mostly the 30s and 40s.  The 
routines were not nearly as insightful, sophisticated 
or subtle as modern comedy.  

Even taking into account that comedy is cultural and 
context-dependent, the old stuff really wasn't all that 
funny.  Perhaps the luxury of modern living allows
more people the opportunity to sit around and think
up comedy routines.  I know I take advantage of that
opportunity early and often.  I am tempted to think
that people are just generally smarter now than they
once were.  

We are getting smart enough to entertain each other
by playing stupid.  This gives me hope that in the
future humans will become even more smart and ever more 
entertaining.  If I extrapolate forward enough on this
trend, we may spend so much time and intellectual energy
cutting up and laughing at each other that we will 
neglect our studies and become stupid again.  

If this be so, then you and I may be fortunate enough to 
have been born in times when humanity reached its zenith of 
funny.  Wouldn't that be cool?  The funny stuff we write
and say today will be maximum funny forever!  Therefore it 
is your ethical humanitarian duty to spend the maximum 
intellectual energy available trying to cause your 
fellow humans to laugh and enjoy themselves.    

spike






From dirk at neopax.com  Sat Jun 11 17:12:27 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:12:27 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] you owe it to me to be funny:  was IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <200506111706.j5BH6oR09638@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506111706.j5BH6oR09638@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <42AB1B7B.9040306@neopax.com>

spike wrote:

>>... Dirk Bruere
>>    
>>
>>>What most needs analysis are changes that are not captured in existing
>>>trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had effects for a long time.
>>>      
>>>
>>At around 3 points per decade...
>>    
>>
>
>I had always assumed that this effect was a sort of 
>optical illusion caused by our increasing ability to
>take IQ tests, perhaps from schools emphasizing such
>training, but I am now rethinking that notion.
>
>On a recent trip to Oregon, I listened to recordings
>of old time comedy routines, classic stuff that has
>survived the ages: Who's On First by Abbott and Costello,
>off-color gags by WC Fields and Mae West, Fibber McGee
>and Molly, etc, riffs from mostly the 30s and 40s.  The 
>routines were not nearly as insightful, sophisticated 
>or subtle as modern comedy.  
>
>  
>
I recall my grandmother telling me about how, at the outbreak of WW1, 
gangs of people went around beating Dachshunds to death because they 
were 'German' dogs. I believe the Flynn Effect is very real and no 
illusion at all.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun 11 18:02:16 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:02:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <68EA5CEC-3FE6-4028-9EE2-C475F817F08D@mac.com>

The software in for combo betting, if giving it away is possible  
anyway, could be done as open source.  Ideally this would enable you  
to get this done and other items on your list as well.

Is it possible to establish a foundation or the equivalent under  
which to group items 4, 6, 7 and 8?  This again would potentially act  
as a multiplier on your efforts and those of others making larger  
impact on the world more likely in these areas.

- samantha

On Jun 10, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Robin Hanson wrote:

> Now that I have tenure, I'm tempted to spend the next few years on  
> a new
> post-tenure project.  Since I should choose carefully, I solicit your
> advice.  No rush; it will be a month or two until I finish my  
> current tasks.
>
> My goal is to make great things happen; getting personal credit can  
> enable
> me to do more things later, but is otherwise not the main goal.  By
> temperament I most like to think deep thoughts, I least like to manage
> other people, and explaining things is somewhere in the middle.
>
> Here are the ten main choices as I see them now:
>
> 1. Disagreement Book - Expand "Are Disagreements Honest" and  
> related papers
> into a book, adding new material on data about who is right in real
> disagreements.  I've been telling people this is my plan.  This could
> establish my reputation as a deep thinker on a big issue.  Fun, as  
> there are
> still things for me to learn on this topic.  No real competition on  
> this
> topic (as least re the more technical angle), and it is nicely not  
> aligned
> with an ideology.  But not clear this will really change much in  
> the world.
>
> 2. Medicine Book - Expand "Showing That You Care" into a book,  
> making as
> clear as possible to a wide audience the point that medicine  
> doesn't help
> them on the usual margin.  Alas, this is not a message people want  
> to hear,
> and I may not learn much doing this.
>
> 3. Upload Futures Papers and Book - Return to and finish my papers  
> analyzing
> the social implications of future technologies, particularly  
> uploads.  Then
> write a book summarizing this area.  I don't know of a more  
> important policy
> question, and no one else is doing this.  But it is not clear that  
> making
> more people aware of these issues will produce better policy;  
> future tech is
> usually treated symbolically, and this often makes things worse.
>
> 4. Idea Futures book - present the grand vision of idea futures  
> solving many
> problems.  Someone else is ahead of me with a similar book, and not  
> sure a
> popular book shouldn't wait until there is more real progress to  
> report.  I
> wouldn't learn much doing this.  But this is what I am now most  
> famous for.
>
> 5. No subject book - just start writing and see what the book turns  
> out to
> be about.
>
> 6. Demo Combo Betting - Write software to clearly demonstrate my  
> vision of
> combinatorial markets, then sell the tech or give it away.  If I  
> don't do
> this it may be many years until others do it.  And this tech can  
> dramatically
> lower the cost of idea futures, allowing many more uses.  But this  
> may not
> be the limiting factor to wider use.  Software needs little money,  
> and is
> fully under my control, but I left software long ago because I  
> preferred to
> ponder.
>
> 7. Decision Markets Application - Solicit funds for and create a  
> big set of
> real money markets on an important policy area, to clearly  
> demonstrate by
> example the value of decision markets.  Might be on health policy,  
> global
> warming, foreign aid, or other big public policy area.  Or might  
> focus on
> policies of big corporations.  Would require me to be more of a  
> manager,
> which may not be my strong suit.  Others may well do this if I do not.
>
> 8. Media Controversy Track Records - Based on my PAM press paper.   
> Solicit
> funds for and create a institute dedicated to collecting a track  
> record on
> who turned out to be right in media controversies.  Use this to infer
> indicators of who tends to be right, and then use those indicators  
> to create
> a press watch service predicting where future opinion will go in  
> current
> controversies.  Can then solicit donations to support the inclusion  
> of donor
> topics of interest.  Good idea, but not clear I'm the right person  
> to do it.
>
> 9. Mangled Worlds - Learn and apply enough physics theory to figure  
> out if
> my mangled worlds concept really is the solution the deep mystery  
> of quantum
> mechanics that it seems to me.  Maybe a 25% chance I'm right, but  
> if I am,
> and I take the time to explain myself clearly, would establish a  
> strong
> reputation as a deep thinker.  Should know one way or other in 3  
> years.
> Would be fun, though not clear it has any practical implications.
>
> 10. Something New - Relax, read widely for a year or two, and then  
> re-examine
> the question.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
> Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
> MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
> 703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Jun 11 18:20:06 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:20:06 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] what to do
In-Reply-To: <68EA5CEC-3FE6-4028-9EE2-C475F817F08D@mac.com>
References: <20050607042554.M67278@ifsi.rm.cnr.it>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050610185547.032d9628@mail.gmu.edu>
	<68EA5CEC-3FE6-4028-9EE2-C475F817F08D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611141423.01ec1810@mail.gmu.edu>

At 02:02 PM 6/11/2005, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>The software in for combo betting, if giving it away is possible
>anyway, could be done as open source.  Ideally this would enable you
>to get this done and other items on your list as well.

Yes.  But the first thing to do is to create prototype software.
Managing an open source project based on that prototype is not for
me to do.

>Is it possible to establish a foundation or the equivalent under
>which to group items 4, 6, 7 and 8?  This again would potentially act
>as a multiplier on your efforts and those of others making larger
>impact on the world more likely in these areas.

Realistically, a new foundation would have to be based on a particular
project - others would come later.


Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From mike99 at lascruces.com  Sat Jun 11 22:10:26 2005
From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:10:26 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: what to do (Robin Hanson)
Message-ID: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKIENOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>

Robin,
My first thought had been to offer you a rank-ordering of your potential
projects according to my own interest in them. But I decided that such an
offering was not worth much.

So I recommend that you take Giulio's suggestion:

"...perhaps the best choice is 5. No subject book -
just start writing and see what the book turns out to be about. In the
no subject book you could touch all these things, and separate
chapters can later spawn new books."


I like this idea because, at the worst, you will have several chapters on
disparate topics that could serve as beginning drafts for several books. At
best, you may have something not unlike the current best-seller by Steven
Levy FREAKONOMICS, which I'm finding quite fascinating.

Best wishes on whatever you decide to do.



Regards,

Michael LaTorra

mike99 at lascruces.com
mlatorra at nmsu.edu

"For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes
towards slavery."
-- Jacob Bronowski

"Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
-- Eugen Leitl

Member:
Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org
Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
http://ieet.org/
Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org




From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Jun 12 09:22:57 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:22:57 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: what to do (Robin Hanson)
In-Reply-To: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKIENOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>
References: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKIENOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>
Message-ID: <470a3c52050612022227e4df02@mail.gmail.com>

Hansonomics?

On 6/12/05, mike99 <mike99 at lascruces.com> wrote:
> Robin,
> My first thought had been to offer you a rank-ordering of your potential
> projects according to my own interest in them. But I decided that such an
> offering was not worth much.
> 
> So I recommend that you take Giulio's suggestion:
> 
> "...perhaps the best choice is 5. No subject book -
> just start writing and see what the book turns out to be about. In the
> no subject book you could touch all these things, and separate
> chapters can later spawn new books."
> 
> 
> I like this idea because, at the worst, you will have several chapters on
> disparate topics that could serve as beginning drafts for several books. At
> best, you may have something not unlike the current best-seller by Steven
> Levy FREAKONOMICS, which I'm finding quite fascinating.
> 
> Best wishes on whatever you decide to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael LaTorra


From dgc at cox.net  Sun Jun 12 14:12:04 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:12:04 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net>
References: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net>
Message-ID: <42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>

The Washington Post Book review section in today's Washington Post
has a review of the book "Radical Evolution", by Washington Post reporter
Joel Garreau. From the review I assume Joel spoke with several folks
on this list.

Also from the review it sounds to me like The book would have been
insightful and provocative if published in (say) 1997.

 From the review, Joel looks at three possible outcomes: "Heaven," 
"Hell," and
"Prevail." Prevail is a non-singularitan middle way that is possible, 
apparently,
because Joel does not believe in the the other two. Clearly, he simply 
doesn't get
it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901546.html

You may need to register to read this online.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Jun 12 15:14:50 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20050612151450.95186.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dan Clemmensen <dgc at cox.net> wrote:
>  From the review, Joel looks at three possible outcomes: "Heaven," 
> "Hell," and
> "Prevail." Prevail is a non-singularitan middle way that is possible,
> apparently,
> because Joel does not believe in the the other two. Clearly, he
> simply 
> doesn't get
> it.
> 
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901546.html

>From the description of Prevail, it looks like a Singularity driven by
current human desires - and thus probably an "outcome" that would be a
step along the path.  No hard AI so the AIs that exist are uploads, or
at least IA-assisted humans (at first)?  Yes, more and tighter social
bonds could easily be among the early results of that.  After that is
the realm that we tend to speculate about; the point is that the
scenarios are far from incompatible.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jun 12 15:53:01 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:53:01 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy:  "Best of the List"
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050612090947.02ffe930@pop-server.austin.rr.com>


Best of the List
a book of highly extropic - transhumanist in scope - posts
One of the beauties of this list is that it has served as an incubation 
nexus for ideas. Since earliest ideas posted in 1991, many have become 
well-known and have hit the mainstream.

In compiling "Best of the List", your input is especially important because 
you are this list.   Here are some suggestions for thinking about posts:
    * What post(s) inspired your worldview?
    * What post(s) best summarize transhumanist topics?
    * What post(s) did you find most amusing - funny - provocative?
    * Whose posts have been revolutionary, innovative, inspiring?
    * What post(s) caused you to take action in your own life?
    * What post(s) invited new ways of thinking about the future and the 
consequences of technology?
    * What post(s) set a role for the transhumanist philosophy of extropy?
    * What post(s) suggested ethical use of technology?
    * What post(s) were fabulous debates on leading edge ideas?
    * What is your personal favorite post(s) or thread(s)?
Thanks,
Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jun 12 16:48:20 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:48:20 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>
References: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net> <42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 10:12 AM 6/12/2005 -0400, Dan wrote:

>Also from the review it sounds to me like The book would have been
>insightful and provocative if published in (say) 1997.

As another one was, with rather similar contents. :)

>Clearly, he simply doesn't get it.

Regard the knee-jerk dreariness of this confused message :

<According to Vernor Vinge, one of several eccentric scientists whom 
Garreau interviews, The Curve will continue to get steeper and steeper 
until it eventually goes completely vertical in a rapturous moment he has 
dubbed "The Singularity." At some point this century, but probably no later 
than 2030, Vinge believes that humans will build the last machine we'll 
ever need -- a device so intelligent it will be able to reproduce rapidly 
and create new machines far smarter than humans could ever imagine. 
Practically overnight, our social order will rupture, and our world will be 
transformed. There's no guarantee that will be particularly pleasant. >

Now this might be the reviewer's fault, but observe the logic, which can't 
distinguish between the gratuitous and non-Vingean "rapture", and 
"rupture". The singularity is "a rapturous moment" that might not be 
"particularly pleasant". Oh.

Still, I suppose it's encouraging that non->Hs are at least starting to 
discuss this concept.

Damien Broderick 



From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 12 16:55:33 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:55:33 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>	<42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net>
	<42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42AC6905.4050009@neopax.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 10:12 AM 6/12/2005 -0400, Dan wrote:
>
>> Also from the review it sounds to me like The book would have been
>> insightful and provocative if published in (say) 1997.
>
>
> As another one was, with rather similar contents. :)
>
>> Clearly, he simply doesn't get it.
>
>
> Regard the knee-jerk dreariness of this confused message :
>
> <According to Vernor Vinge, one of several eccentric scientists whom 
> Garreau interviews, The Curve will continue to get steeper and steeper 
> until it eventually goes completely vertical in a rapturous moment he 
> has dubbed "The Singularity." At some point this century, but probably 
> no later than 2030, Vinge believes that humans will build the last 
> machine we'll ever need -- a device so intelligent it will be able to 
> reproduce rapidly and create new machines far smarter than humans 
> could ever imagine. Practically overnight, our social order will 
> rupture, and our world will be transformed. There's no guarantee that 
> will be particularly pleasant. >
>
> Now this might be the reviewer's fault, but observe the logic, which 
> can't distinguish between the gratuitous and non-Vingean "rapture", 
> and "rupture". The singularity is "a rapturous moment" that might not 
> be "particularly pleasant". Oh.
>
> Still, I suppose it's encouraging that non->Hs are at least starting 
> to discuss this concept.
>
Not really.
The non discussion of it plus business as usual might suit us better.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dgc at cox.net  Sun Jun 12 17:17:53 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:17:53 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>	<42A3BBDC.3040104@cox.net>
	<42AC42B4.2020309@cox.net>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42AC6E41.6070605@cox.net>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 10:12 AM 6/12/2005 -0400, Dan wrote:
>
>> Also from the review it sounds to me like The book would have been
>> insightful and provocative if published in (say) 1997.
>
>
> As another one was, with rather similar contents. :)

Well I must admit I pulled down my copy of the Australian first edition
of "The Spike" and looked at the publication date as I was typing the
post, but other than that, the "1997" number is a pure coincidence :-)

And of course unless the reviewer misunderstood the book, "Radical 
Evolution"
is much weaker than "The Spike." I intend to go read it, but I'm not 
optimistic.


From hal at finney.org  Sun Jun 12 16:36:59 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: what to do (Robin Hanson)
Message-ID: <20050612163659.B64A957E8C@finney.org>

Another idea along these lines would be for Robin to start
a blog.  A couple of new economics blogs I've been reading
are Econbrowser at http://www.econbrowser.com/ and macroblog at
http://macroblog.typepad.com/macroblog/ .  The latter publishes odds
every Monday for the next Fed interest rate change based on imputed
probabilities from the futures markets as a superior alternative to the
punditry that passes for informed commentary - further evidence of the
growth in influence of IF style ideas.

Robin pointed some years ago to the granddaddy of these, Brad DeLong's
blog at http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/ .  It's pretty
political though, very mainstream-leftish.  There was talk that DeLong
was angling for a position in the Kerry administration.  He's always
been heavily into Bush bashing, which is fine, but the other team doesn't
seem to attract nearly as much criticism.

Hal


From hal at finney.org  Sun Jun 12 16:53:28 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy:  "Best of the List"
Message-ID: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>

As I recall, in the early years of the Extropians list we had a rather
restrictive republication policy.  Authors were promised that their works
would have only limited distribution and would not be published elsewhere.

In retrospect I think this was a mistake, it would have been better to
treat postings as being for public distribution.  I don't think it would
have really inhibited discussion.  But the net of the early 90s was not
the same as today, the ideas were far more controversial and "crazy",
so it is perhaps understandable that the list was trying to create a
private coccoon for free discussion.

I would imagine that any republication of these messages would require
getting individual permission from the authors.  Where messages involve
quotes of other people's messages, as is often the case, everyone involved
would have to agree.

For a while I tried running a list which re-posted selected messages
from Extropians.  I had to get permission from each author to allow
his messages to be redistributed.  Where they had quotes, I had to make
sure that each other being quoted had given permission.  When I could
not obtain that, I sometimes hand-edited the quoted portions to remove
them or substitute a brief summary (copyright applies to presentation,
not content).  Needless to say, it was a lot of work and I did not keep
it up for more than a few months.  But I understood that I had to follow
such procedures in order to be consistent with the promises that had
been made to authors posting to the list.

Unfortunately these limitations will make it difficult to have a full
public process for choosing and evaluating messages.  Not only would
you have to secure permission for the messages you mean to publish,
you also have to get permission for the potentially much larger body of
messages that you might want to open up for comment and consideration
in terms of selecting the finalists.

I'd be curious to hear about what your plans are for getting around this
difficulty in terms of publishing a "best of the list" from the early
days.  I do think this would be a tremendously valuable and interesting
picture of the development of transhumanism as it first hit the net,
and I hope you can find a way to make the many creative and stimulating
postings available to a wider audience.

Hal


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 12 19:32:10 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:32:10 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy:  "Best of the List"
In-Reply-To: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
References: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <42AC8DBA.4000403@neopax.com>

Hal Finney wrote:

>As I recall, in the early years of the Extropians list we had a rather
>restrictive republication policy.  Authors were promised that their works
>would have only limited distribution and would not be published elsewhere.
>
>In retrospect I think this was a mistake, it would have been better to
>treat postings as being for public distribution.  I don't think it would
>have really inhibited discussion.  But the net of the early 90s was not
>the same as today, the ideas were far more controversial and "crazy",
>so it is perhaps understandable that the list was trying to create a
>private coccoon for free discussion.
>
>
>  
>
You mean before Political Correctness strangled free and open discussion.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 19:38:13 2005
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050612193813.75947.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com>

I don't know Damien.  I'm thinking that the author, or
more likely the reviewer, attempted and achieved
cleverness in his use of two nearly identical-sounding
words with different but nevertheless apt meanings.

On this topic clearly there are those who think
rapture and those who think rupture, notwithstanding
the proximity in the text of "Vinge" to the two words.

Jeff Davis 

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> ... but observe
> the logic, which can't 
> distinguish between the gratuitous and non-Vingean
> "rapture", and 
> "rupture". The singularity is "a rapturous moment"
> that might not be 
> "particularly pleasant". Oh.




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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jun 12 19:53:14 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:53:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] book review: Radical Evolution
In-Reply-To: <20050612193813.75947.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612114221.01db3c50@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050612193813.75947.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612144914.01cc5458@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 12:38 PM 6/12/2005 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:


>I'm thinking that the author, or
>more likely the reviewer, attempted and achieved
>cleverness in his use of two nearly identical-sounding
>words with different but nevertheless apt meanings.

My point, though, is that Vinge does not, repeat NOT, regard the 
singularity as a rapture -- `a rapturous moment he has dubbed "The 
Singularity." ' Vinge actually thinks it's scary. But of course the 
reviewer also asserts that Vinge is "eccentric", presumably on no other 
grounds than his taking the idea seriously. I get so tired of this shit.

Damien Broderick 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jun 12 20:37:03 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:37:03 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy:  "Best of the List"
In-Reply-To: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
References: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050612153337.02f1a9b0@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Hi Hal,

Yes, indeed.  We have "releases" to be sent to all list posters from the 
early list days and will not reproduce their work without their 
authorization.  I am a stickler for this.  As an artist whose work has been 
reproduced and distributed without my permission, I am ever so careful to 
not do that to others. Further it is illegal to do so.

Thanks for bringing it up though so that everyone will know that even 
though we support an open society, we value privacy.

Many thanks,

Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet



At 11:53 AM 6/12/2005, you wrote:
>As I recall, in the early years of the Extropians list we had a rather
>restrictive republication policy.  Authors were promised that their works
>would have only limited distribution and would not be published elsewhere.
>
>In retrospect I think this was a mistake, it would have been better to
>treat postings as being for public distribution.  I don't think it would
>have really inhibited discussion.  But the net of the early 90s was not
>the same as today, the ideas were far more controversial and "crazy",
>so it is perhaps understandable that the list was trying to create a
>private coccoon for free discussion.
>
>I would imagine that any republication of these messages would require
>getting individual permission from the authors.  Where messages involve
>quotes of other people's messages, as is often the case, everyone involved
>would have to agree.
>
>For a while I tried running a list which re-posted selected messages
>from Extropians.  I had to get permission from each author to allow
>his messages to be redistributed.  Where they had quotes, I had to make
>sure that each other being quoted had given permission.  When I could
>not obtain that, I sometimes hand-edited the quoted portions to remove
>them or substitute a brief summary (copyright applies to presentation,
>not content).  Needless to say, it was a lot of work and I did not keep
>it up for more than a few months.  But I understood that I had to follow
>such procedures in order to be consistent with the promises that had
>been made to authors posting to the list.
>
>Unfortunately these limitations will make it difficult to have a full
>public process for choosing and evaluating messages.  Not only would
>you have to secure permission for the messages you mean to publish,
>you also have to get permission for the potentially much larger body of
>messages that you might want to open up for comment and consideration
>in terms of selecting the finalists.
>
>I'd be curious to hear about what your plans are for getting around this
>difficulty in terms of publishing a "best of the list" from the early
>days.  I do think this would be a tremendously valuable and interesting
>picture of the development of transhumanism as it first hit the net,
>and I hope you can find a way to make the many creative and stimulating
>postings available to a wider audience.
>
>Hal
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jun 12 20:42:09 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:42:09 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropy:  "Best of the List"
In-Reply-To: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
References: <20050612165328.59E6257E8C@finney.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050612153811.02f1a9b0@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

At 11:53 AM 6/12/2005, Hal wrote:

>I do think this would be a tremendously valuable and interesting
>picture of the development of transhumanism as it first hit the net,
>and I hope you can find a way to make the many creative and stimulating
>postings available to a wider audience. I'd be curious to hear about what 
>your plans are for getting around this difficulty in terms of publishing a 
>"best of the list" from the early days.

We have copies of the posts from our list.  To select the posts for the 
anthology, we will sort them by author and subject.  Then we read them. 
They we select posts that are best of list.  Then we send releases to their 
authors to obtain permission to reprint.

Another method which we will use is to get the names of posters from the 
early 1990s and send them a message asking if they have posts that they 
authored that they would like to see reproduced in the Best of the 
List.  When we receive their posts, we will sort through them and select 
the ones that fit the content guidelines we have sketched out.

It is actually a simple process, but time consuming.



Take care,
Natasha


>Hal
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 12 22:38:31 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:38:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] COSMOS Magazine 
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050612223831.87952.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> http://www.locusmag.com/ :
> 
> 
>    Magazine News
> 
> New Australian popular science magazine 
> <http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/>Cosmos has named
> Damien Broderick fiction 
> editor. 

Congrats Damien. :) Is the magazine going to be
available in the US?


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jun 12 22:43:43 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:43:43 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] COSMOS Magazine
In-Reply-To: <20050612223831.87952.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050612223831.87952.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612174311.01d77d58@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 03:38 PM 6/12/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>Is the magazine going to be
>available in the US?

I believe that's their hope. Not yet, apparently.

Damien Broderick 



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Sun Jun 12 23:52:17 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:52:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <003801c56a46$17262d00$0100a8c0@kevin> <42A4E8D3.6030500@cox.net>
Message-ID: <002e01c56fa9$c454b8d0$0100a8c0@kevin>

Well, I am back home and on the ground now. As for the passenger status in
the car, well, I am a horrible passenger and almost never let anyone drive -
especially on long trips (even though most accidents are within 5 miles of
home).
Several years ago I was even worse and would flat-out refuse to get into a
car with a driver who made me nervous. I also had on occasion actually left
a car in which I was a passenger when the car was at a stoplight.
I took a job as a car salesman for a while (aware of my fear) and learned to
better manage that fear. Still, I think the fear of riding left me a bit at
a loss as a salesman.

A few things are different with air travel and I think I have them nailed
down. To begin, while getting on a plane, one does not have the option to
participate in any decisions such as the decision to land in a storm or to
take off at a certain time. The pilot, not flight control, has finaly
authority on these decisions and can at any time choose to  disregard
instructions from the tower.

In fact, as a passenger one knows absolutely nothing of the pilot. A
passenger has no idea what kind of decisions the pilot might make. That
pilot may be starting their day, or they may be in a position where if they
don;t land and take off in a certain time-frame, they may have to overnight
away from home. They may be angry and reckless one day. The fact is, you
never even get to speak to the pilot.

Nor do you know what that aircraft has been through. The pilot does a
checklist before every flight, but it they are preoccupied, it can be very
easy to walk the routine and never even notice things that are blatantly
obvious.

So quite simply, unlike with cars, there is no opportunity to inspect either
the pilot of the plane. You can;t even see forward to say "Hey, are you sure
you want to fly through that?"

Of course, I know that my inspection of the aircraft would probably be
pointless because a failure is more likely to occur somewhere that can't be
seen. I know that I don't walk around my own car before I get in and drive
off, but I also know each and every pot-hole the car has hit. I have done
all the maintenance myself.

I know that meeting the pilot would probably show me little more about the
pilot than the pilot wants me to see. And I know that allowing passengers to
meet the pilot, discussing opinions, and inspect the aircraft would be
totally impractical and would even increase risk due to security concerns.
But I think that this is where the fear comes from.

It is interesting to note that on the way back, I had the opportunity to sit
in the right-side emergency exit row window seat over the wing. This did
some to allay my fears as I felt I had responsibility for something, but in
the end, it was very little help since I had no real decisions to make
unless the plane crashed.

On a side note, I had a cab driver at the airport that scared me MUCH more
than any of the flights!
This fear is really an issue as it actually caused me some stomach problems.
My last flight was better than the first flight which means that I could
probably be conditioned to deal with it if I just fly commercial often
enough (increasing my odds of being in a plane crash). One part that helped
was landing in Atlanta and just seeing the number of jets taking off,
landing, loading and unloading without incident. It's one thing to read the
statistics and quite another to stand there and watch plane after plane come
and go.

What the heck am I to do the first time I ever require surgery?






question: how well do you handle being a front-seat passenger in
> a car? this is effectively equivalent to being
> a passenger in an airliner. except that it is statistically much more
> dangerous.
>
> If you can deal with being a car passenger, how do you do it? can you
> use the same coping mechanisms for air travel?
>
> You are a control freak. Don't apologize for this: you were born that
> way., and there is nothing wrong with it.
> Non-control-freaks cannot really empathize with your situation, so we
> cannot really help.
>
>



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Sun Jun 12 23:54:22 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:54:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <20050606155507.83526.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004201c56faa$0eff6830$0100a8c0@kevin>

I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root would be able
manage controlled flight back to base. As for the French plane, those jets
barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist landing in a
crosswind.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying


>
>
> --- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > Kevin my father-in-law has a terrible fear of flying,
> > specifically that the wings would come off in turbulence.  I
> > launched into a big pontification on how they are stress
> > tested, inspected, planes never have structural failure
> > in flight, bla bla and yakkity yak.  About a week later
> > the tail fell off that French plane causing it to punch
> > a deep hole into the earth.  He has not flown since.
>
> You should show him photos of air force fighters that have shorn off
> their wings at the roots in midair collisions but still flown back to
> base and landed.... hey, that French plane lost its rudder but still
> flew back to the airport. That's a glass half full in my opinion...
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
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> _______________________________________________
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> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 12 23:58:27 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:58:27 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <004201c56faa$0eff6830$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <200506122358.j5CNwIR17200@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:54 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> 
> I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root would be able
> manage controlled flight back to base...

Mike do you have a photo of that plane?  It somehow made it
back with durn near most of one wing gone.  Hell if I know
how he managed to keep it airborne.  That was a pilot with
the right stuff.


> As for the French plane, those jets
> barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist landing in a
> crosswind...


That plane lost more than the rudder.  It lost the
vertical stabilizer, which moved the center of pressure
forward of the GC, which made it unflyable, completely
uncontrollable.  

spike





From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jun 13 00:59:04 2005
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:59:04 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] COSMOS Magazine
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050612174311.01d77d58@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610234139.01c98518@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050612223831.87952.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050612174311.01d77d58@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42ACDA58.9080303@optusnet.com.au>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> At 03:38 PM 6/12/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> Is the magazine going to be
>> available in the US?
> 
> 
> I believe that's their hope. Not yet, apparently.
> 
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 

According to their website, they do international subscriptions,
for A$150 / 11 issues. (accepting visa, mastercard and bankcard)

That's about double the local price here (A$78) so international
postage must cost a bit.  :)

-David.



From mike99 at lascruces.com  Mon Jun 13 01:41:17 2005
From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:41:17 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [wta-talk] RE: [Trans-Spirit] Multi
	personalities reveal self isfiction
In-Reply-To: <20050611174854.73412.qmail@web61117.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKCEOOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>

Thanks for your reply, 1Arcturus. I especially like that you mentioned the
"noetic technology" described in John C. Wright's GOLDEN AGE trilogy, which
is some of the best science fiction of the recent decades.

The issue you raised about modeling the mind within the mind is, I think,
the heart of the matter.

In Wright's novel the protagonist, Phaethon, discovers that his memory has
been tampered with. Later, he also has reason to believe that someone may
have infected his mind with a memetic virus (like a computer virus). I have
greatly simplified the plot situation here, needless to say. What I want to
focus on is the episode in which Phaethon, reacting to the possible mental
virus infection, shuts down most of his vast, technologically-enhanced
brain-machinery, and goes into his basic mental "workspace." This is the
equivalent of operating your PC in "safe mode." Within this workspace,
Phaethon runs a system diagnostic to look for any suspicious, mental-virus
type activity.

This fictional situation raises the question: Who is operating in the
workspace? Is there some "kernel" within the brain-machinery of Phaethon
that is his essence? (I am disregarding any non-physical, soul-type
explanations here.)

Consider, now, a different science fiction example. In Greg Egan's short
story "Transitions Dreams" the reader sees the protagonist's dreams taking
place during the scanning and uploading of his consciousness to a machine
substrate. These dreams, although definitely experienced, are said to be
impossible to remember, according to a character who is almost certainly
speaking for the author, because they are artifacts of the upload process.
As artifacts, they are not included in the memory set that is being
uploaded. So although these dreams (sometimes nightmarish) are sure to
occur, they are also sure to be forgotten.

Is an experience that cannot be remembered something we should be concerned
about? Suppose the experience is terrifying, painful, and hellish? Would you
care about this in the case of others? Would you dare to endure it yourself
as part of the upload process?

I suspect that you are right, 1Arcturus, in saying that there is a "limit on
how much awareness one can have about mind processes in one's self." As with
Phaethon, we probably have some sort of core or kernel or essential mind
process set that is the bare minimum required for 'us to be us' if I may put
it that way. This kernel would still not be an irreducible entity, however;
it's not some sort of 'atomic self'. There is no irreducible self, but only
the minimum necessary set of mental processes required in order to have
human-level awareness. This level of mental operation cannot 'look at
itself' because, although aware, it is too simple to be self-reflective.
This level is already the bare minimum; if we terminated even one of the
mental processes that comprise it, awareness would cease.

My goal, as a transhumanist, is to add all the best noetic technology I can
to the brain-machinery where all mental processes reside. My kernel mental
processes can employ these enhancement tools to think faster, remember more
(and more accurately) and to experience aesthetically pleasing combinations
of thoughts and sensations that are beyond the present capacity of any human
mind to entertain. These enhancements could even provide "biofeedback"
information about mental processes within the kernel that the kernel itself
has no capacity to see unaided.

That's a long-term goal, to say the least. My present practice as a Soto Zen
priest is to become more aware of the bare attention that *is* the kernel
mental state, totally shorn of the many layers of distractive mental
processes we ordinarily experience. I can observe those other layers float
by, but I cannot see the one (i.e., the mental processes) who observes them.


Regards,

Michael LaTorra

mike99 at lascruces.com
mlatorra at nmsu.edu

"For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes
towards slavery."
-- Jacob Bronowski

"Experiences only look special from the inside of the system."
-- Eugen Leitl

Member:
Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org
Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies:
http://ieet.org/
Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org
Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org
Society for Universal Immortalism: www.universalimmortalism.org
President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: www.zencenteroflascruces.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org
> [mailto:wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of 1Arcturus
> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:49 AM
> To: wta-talk at transhumanism.org
> Subject: [wta-talk] RE: [Trans-Spirit] Multi personalities reveal self
> isfiction
>
>
>
> Michael LaTorra,
>
> A great research question indeed. I don't know enough about the field,
> but I think there might be a kind of limit on how much awareness one
> can have about mind processes in one's self, because awareness would
> need to create a model to comprehend it and developing the model
> would require time, which would create a time lag. With machine interfaces
> one might be able to beat the pace of human consciousness in order
> to create a higher-order awareness, but this would not be useful,
> because one would want to use the technology to increase the pace
> of one's own consciousness in the first place. Certainly, there is
> room for much more self-awareness than we currently have, and perhaps
> also automatic monitors for the state of consciousness. I'm reminded
> of the "noetic technology" in The Golden Age, where people can examine
> the state of their consciousness when they need to, to tweak its
> performance or intervene in the mind processes.
>
>
>
> >>>Here's the research question: Can we learn to maintain conscious
>
> awareness at a deep enough level such that we can observe
> ourselves going through
>
> processes (1) and (2) listed above?
>
> = Can the mind of a person who is about to take an action observe the
>
> source of decision that **actually** chooses that action?
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
======= ORIGINAL MESSAGE REPLY ==========

The most fascinating opportunities for research on human consciousness
appear at those moments of transition between states. Two such moments, for
example, are mentioned in Syed's article below:

(1) when the person suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder is
switching between alter personalities (or "selves")
     and there is a moment of "vacancy"
(2) when the person in Benjamin Libet's experiment on voluntary action
exhibits the brain activity that begins about half
     a second before the person is aware of deciding to act


Here's the research question: Can we learn to maintain conscious awareness
at a deep enough level such that we can observe ourselves going through
processes (1) and (2) listed above?

This question can be recast into two specific questions about the research
discussed in Syed's article:

- Can the mind of a person suffering from DID learn to see what is happening
during the personality switch between alters?
= Can the mind of a person who is about to take an action observe the source
of decision that **actually** chooses that action?

These are questions about our own degree of awareness. According to the
spiritual traditions, individuals who are "Enlightened" or "Realized" etc.
can observe themselves at such a deep level. But are these traditions
correct? Is such a degree of awareness truly possible? Or is this just
another instance of imagining fantastic possibilities that are not now, and
never have been, possible for human beings?

Even if such deep awareness had never been possible before, will technology
someday make it possible? Libet's experimental apparatus might be turned
into a biofeedback system, for instance. Could it then be used as a tool for
training ourselves to become more aware of the source of our own action?
Might we then become conscious of that source, become one with it, and be
able to act more quickly and authentically? And would that even be a good
thing? (Fans of the super-ego, please take note!)



Regards,

Michael LaTorra

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trans-Spirit at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Trans-Spirit at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Hughes, James J.
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:55 AM
> To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List
> Cc: Trans-Spirit at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Trans-Spirit] Multi personalities reveal self is fiction
>
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1644788,00.html
>
> June 08, 2005
>
> A case of mistaken identity crisis
>
> Matthew Syed
>
> People afflicted with multiple personalities reveal that the idea
> of the self is a fiction
>
> THE MOST sinister form of abuse is that meted out to a child by a
> parent. The young have a biological predisposition to "belong" -
> a duckling, for example, will instinctively snuggle up to a human
> leg if that is the first thing it sees - so it is particularly
> traumatic when this need for tenderness is met with systematic
> physical or sexual violence.
>
> Pamela, the subject of a haunting documentary on Channel 4
> tonight, developed a novel, if somewhat disquieting, mechanism to
> cope with her sadistic upbringing: she created new selves. When
> the pain, squalor and ignominy became too much to endure, Pamela,
> as it were, "left it all behind": while she was abused, she
> dissociated and departed to another place - leaving a new person
> in her place.
>
> R?my Aquarone, an analytical psychotherapist, has dealt with
> these disturbing cases of what is known as Dissociative Identity
> Disorder (DID). "Dissociation is a primitive defence mechanism,"
> he said. "When something is unbearable to consciousness and
> cannot be cognitively processed, it is split off: quite literally
> dissociated."
>
> In many cases the various "alters" have their own memories and
> personality traits. When a switch is about to occur the patient
> often undergoes a temporary look of vacancy before the background
> alter "emerges". One psychoanalyst I spoke to had worked with a
> patient who had a successful job in the City during the week and
> then travelled to the South Coast at the weekend to work as a prostitute.
>
> One of the most fascinating aspects of witnessing such people is
> our own knee-jerk scepticism. I watched a tape of the documentary
> and found it difficult to suppress a growing sense of
> incredulity, as if I expected Pamela eventually to wink at the
> camera and say: "Gotcha!" This response is not confined to lay
> people. Doctors repudiated the condition when it was first
> diagnosed and it remains hotly contested today, regarded by many
> as a phenomenon that has been induced under hypnotic suggestion
> by over-zealous clinicians.
>
> But why this reluctance? The problem here is not a lack of
> evidence - which is overwhelming - but a failure of intellectual
> courage. For DID strikes at the heart of the most basic myth in
> our intellectual vocabulary: the self.
>
> Since we first learnt to use language we have regarded the
> first-person pronoun as referring to something that existed in
> childhood, exists today, will continue to exist in the future and
> - for those of a religious persuasion - will survive bodily
> death. We fondly think of this self as the subject of our
> experiences, the instigator of our actions and the custodian of
> our morality. We are lulled into this idea by the seeming unity
> of our consciousness: our various thoughts and perceptions all
> knitted into a seamless whole.
>
> This cherished conception is, however, a cruel fiction. It has
> taken extreme cases, such as DID, to ram the truth home. Take
> brain dissection. In these operations, the corpus callosum - a
> large strand of neurons which facilitates communications between
> the hemispheres - is cut to stop the spread of epileptic seizures
> from one half of the brain to the other. Under certain laboratory
> conditions, two "centres of consciousness" seem to appear in
> patients who have had this operation.
>
> For example, suppose that we flash the word CANNOT on a screen in
> front of a brain-bisected patient in such a way that the letters
> CAN hit one side of the retina, the letters NOT the other and we
> ensure that the information hitting each retina stays in one lobe
> and is not fed to the other. If such a patient is asked what word
> is being shown, the mouth will say CAN while the hand controlled
> by the hemisphere that does not control the mouth will write NOT.
> So much for the "unity" of consciousness.
>
> What about the notion of the self as instigator of action? We
> na?vely suppose that we consciously decide to move, and then
> move. When Benjamin Libet conducted an experiment on voluntary
> action in 1985 he found that the brain activity began about half
> a second before the person was aware of deciding to act. The
> conscious decision came far too late to be the cause of the
> action, as though consciousness is a mere afterthought. Many
> reacted to this with astonishment. Why? Did they really suppose
> the body was animated by some ghostly mini me lurking behind the brain?
>
> A more plausible theory is that which is emerging from both
> biology and artificial intelligence. As Daniel Dennett, the
> philosopher, puts it: "Complex systems can in fact function in
> what seems to be a thoroughly 'purposeful and integrated' way
> simply by having lots of subsystems doing their own thing without
> any central supervision." The self, then, is not what it seems to
> be. There is no soul, no spirit, no supervisor. There is just a
> brain, a dull grey collection of neurons and neural pathways -
> going about its business. The illusion of self is merely a
> by-product of the brain's organisational sophistication.
>
> Seen in this light, DID is neither a philosophical absurdity nor
> a medical fantasy but a vivid demonstration of the infinite
> adaptability of the human mind in the quest for survival. Those
> who tune in tonight will feel an overwhelming sense of compassion
> for the pathetic figure of Pamela. But, for those who take the
> intellectual plunge, the most acute pity will be directed
> inwardly. Accepting the death of "self" is both strange and
> traumatic, bringing with it a profound a sense of bereavement.
> Except that there is nothing there to bereave.
>
> Being Pamela, Channel 4, 9pm




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 02:22:04 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:22:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <004201c56faa$0eff6830$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <20050613022204.58448.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's true. F-15s and F-16s generate 50% of their lift with their
fuselages, so the complete loss of one wing at the root is only a loss
of 25% of total lift, at most. I first saw this in a military exercise
in Alaska where an Eagle and a Falcon sheared off one of each others
wing at the root and both returned to base from 20+ miles away.

This photo shows one example: 
http://www.harry.hirschman.com/Aviation_Pages/Mil_Row-1.html of a
similar collision an Israeli air force f-15 suffered in an exercise
over the Negev desert flying against an A-7.

--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:

> I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root would be
> able
> manage controlled flight back to base. As for the French plane, those
> jets
> barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist landing in
> a
> crosswind.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:55 AM
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > --- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Kevin my father-in-law has a terrible fear of flying,
> > > specifically that the wings would come off in turbulence.  I
> > > launched into a big pontification on how they are stress
> > > tested, inspected, planes never have structural failure
> > > in flight, bla bla and yakkity yak.  About a week later
> > > the tail fell off that French plane causing it to punch
> > > a deep hole into the earth.  He has not flown since.
> >
> > You should show him photos of air force fighters that have shorn
> off
> > their wings at the roots in midair collisions but still flown back
> to
> > base and landed.... hey, that French plane lost its rudder but
> still
> > flew back to the airport. That's a glass half full in my opinion...
> >
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it
> out!
> > http://discover.yahoo.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 02:47:03 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:47:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [wta-talk] RE: [Trans-Spirit] Multi
	personalities reveal self isfiction
In-Reply-To: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKCEOOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>
Message-ID: <20050613024703.42805.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- mike99 <mike99 at lascruces.com> wrote:

> I have greatly simplified the plot situation here, needless to say.
> What I want to focus on is the episode in which Phaethon, reacting
> to the possible mental virus infection, shuts down most of his vast,
> technologically-enhanced
> brain-machinery, and goes into his basic mental "workspace." This is
> the equivalent of operating your PC in "safe mode." Within this
> workspace, Phaethon runs a system diagnostic to look for any
> suspicious, mental-virus type activity.
> 
> This fictional situation raises the question: Who is operating in the
> workspace? Is there some "kernel" within the brain-machinery of
> Phaethon that is his essence? 

On the contrary, one has one's personality loaded into RAM space from
HD space. The RAM instantiation is conciously operating but can
critically examine every bit that is on the long term memory HD,
including one's kernel, as the HD data is unconcious.

Something similar operates with people, in that we seem to have
separate short term and long term memory functions, where damage to one
does not mean damage to the other. The short term, of course, seems to
be what you remember since you last booted up (i.e. woke up), while the
long term memory is your permanent record (seemingly editable, though).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 06:16:39 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <20050613061639.20934.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:

> What most needs analysis are changes that are not
> captured in existing
> trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
> effects for a long time.
> So all of the existing trend-based analysis already
> captures a big
> similar effect.  The effects of the upload
> transition are not, however,
> much captured in existing trends.

Hey Robin,

This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze and
compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs. time
but if it is exponential rather than linear then it
opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's law is
exponential then it might come down to a race between
the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what will
dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that CREATE
them.
    If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how fast
computers and software advance the human mind might be
able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all, Deep
Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you invite
to a cocktail party?

 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 06:19:26 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 160+ I.Q. vs. oblivion in 3 nanoseconds
Message-ID: <20050613061926.51559.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>

I LOVE . . .

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 06:31:57 2005
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <004201c56faa$0eff6830$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <20050613063157.85547.qmail@web60014.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:

> I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at
> the root would be able
> manage controlled flight back to base. 

Perhaps it was directly above the base.  If the rudder
and horizontal stabilizers remained functional, it
could then retain a degree of control as it "returned"
to base, albeit at a somewhat steep angle of descent.

I'm sure that's what Mike meant.

;-) 

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles



		
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From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Mon Jun 13 07:16:10 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:16:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <200506122358.j5CNwIR17200@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c56fe7$c6ec4a70$0100a8c0@kevin>

I can see that. What I read was "wings ripped off at the root" which to me
meant that there was no source of lift except for the fuselage which has no
control surfaces.

As for the Airbus, I think there were two different incidents. That jet
without a rudder still leaves the CP behind the CG. It is designed that way.
Of course, it was never designed to be flown without the tail entirely which
happened in a separate incident.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying


>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com
> > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:54 PM
> > To: ExI chat list
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> >
> > I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root would be
able
> > manage controlled flight back to base...
>
> Mike do you have a photo of that plane?  It somehow made it
> back with durn near most of one wing gone.  Hell if I know
> how he managed to keep it airborne.  That was a pilot with
> the right stuff.
>
>
> > As for the French plane, those jets
> > barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist landing in a
> > crosswind...
>
>
> That plane lost more than the rudder.  It lost the
> vertical stabilizer, which moved the center of pressure
> forward of the GC, which made it unflyable, completely
> uncontrollable.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Mon Jun 13 10:35:07 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:35:07 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
Message-ID: <e88b73ce050613033577721232@mail.gmail.com>

[I'm soon going to be submitting another slashdot article on
extropy-related topics. Per usual, I'd appreciate any suggestions of
changes or tweaks before I make the actual submission.]

Submission html:

Although events such as SpaceShipOne's suborbital spaceflights and the
<a href=http://www.space.com/adastra/050523_musk_nss.html>upcoming
maiden launch</a> of SpaceX's privately-built Falcon I orbital rocket
have caused many experts to predict what the future of the commercial
space market is going to be like, many of these views tend to be
radically different from each other. The Space Review has an <a
href=http://www.thespacereview.com/article/390/1>article</a> by Dr.
Sam Dinkin where he proposes using information aggregation markets
(also known as <a href=http://hanson.gmu.edu/ideafutures.html>idea
futures</a> or <a
href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market>prediction
markets</a>) to aggregate the forecasts of professional and armchair
experts, producing a more accurate view of the future of commercial
spaceflight. These types of markets, where traders essentially 'put
their money where their mouth is' and profit from accurate
predictions, are arguably the most effective means of predicting
future trends and events. Possible securities could include the
predicted launch costs, the strength of carbon nanotube cables, and
the number of private astronauts in a particular year. With such a
system in place, entrepreneurs, investors and policy makers would have
more reliable information on what to expect from commercial space
activities and how to best invest in them.

Submission text:

Although events such as SpaceShipOne's suborbital spaceflights and the
upcoming maiden launch of SpaceX's privately-built Falcon I orbital
rocket have caused many experts to predict what the future of the
commercial space market is going to be like, many of these views tend
to be radically different from each other. The Space Review has an
article by Dr. Sam Dinkin where he proposes using information
aggregation markets (also known as idea futures or prediction markets)
to aggregate the forecasts of professional and armchair experts,
producing a more accurate view of the future of commercial
spaceflight. These types of markets, where traders essentially 'put
their money where their mouth is' and profit from accurate
predictions, are arguably the most effective means of predicting
future trends and events. Possible securities could include the
predicted launch costs, the strength of carbon nanotube cables, and
the number of private astronauts in a particular year. With such a
system in place, entrepreneurs, investors and policy makers would have
more reliable information on what to expect from commercial space
activities and how to best invest in them.

Submission links:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/390/1
http://www.space.com/adastra/050523_musk_nss.html
http://hanson.gmu.edu/ideafutures.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market


From rhanson at gmu.edu  Mon Jun 13 10:18:21 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:18:21 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613061639.20934.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>
	<20050613061639.20934.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613061456.03014b08@mail.gmu.edu>

At 02:16 AM 6/13/2005, Avantguardian wrote:
> > What most needs analysis are changes that are not
> > captured in existing trends. IQ has been increasing
> > and that has had effects for a long time.
> > So all of the existing trend-based analysis already
> > captures a big similar effect.  The effects of the
> > upload transition are not, however, much captured in
> > existing trends.
>
>This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze and
>compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
>know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs. time
>but if it is exponential rather than linear then it
>opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's law is
>exponential then it might come down to a race between
>the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what will
>dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that CREATE
>them.

We don't know what processing/memory increase corresponds
to a given number of IQ points increase.  But it is hard
to believe that a factor of two every two years in CPU/mem
doesn't beat a standard deviation per generation of IQ.



Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 13 12:48:34 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:48:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <e88b73ce050613033577721232@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050613124835.59912.qmail@web26201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

After spaceshipone flight there was a lot of enthudiam
for the so called space tourism
IN REALITY PLANS ARE FOR SUBORBITAL 10 MINUTE FLIGHTS
nothing to do with orbital flights that require ten
times more speed and higher altiyude together with a
different and more advanced technology.
If there is a real market at 250000$ per flight to
fill the expected capacity, the VIRGIN GALACTIC FUTURE
PLANE WILL CARRY 5 OR 6 PAYING PASSENGERS
is unknown.
past comercial space predictions were always wrong,
the Iridium disaster is a good reminder.
I believe that before space could be a profit making
environment for private enterprises and a new business
environment space accessibility costs must be slashed
of two order of magnitude from 10000$ per kg to 100$
per Kg.
Witout that it will not produce any progress but
remain a high risk activity
--- Neil Halelamien <neuronexmachina at gmail.com> ha
scritto: 

> [I'm soon going to be submitting another slashdot
> article on
> extropy-related topics. Per usual, I'd appreciate
> any suggestions of
> changes or tweaks before I make the actual
> submission.]
> 
> Submission html:
> 
> Although events such as SpaceShipOne's suborbital
> spaceflights and the
> <a
>
href=http://www.space.com/adastra/050523_musk_nss.html>upcoming
> maiden launch</a> of SpaceX's privately-built Falcon
> I orbital rocket
> have caused many experts to predict what the future
> of the commercial
> space market is going to be like, many of these
> views tend to be
> radically different from each other. The Space
> Review has an <a
>
href=http://www.thespacereview.com/article/390/1>article</a>
> by Dr.
> Sam Dinkin where he proposes using information
> aggregation markets
> (also known as <a
> href=http://hanson.gmu.edu/ideafutures.html>idea
> futures</a> or <a
>
href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market>prediction
> markets</a>) to aggregate the forecasts of
> professional and armchair
> experts, producing a more accurate view of the
> future of commercial
> spaceflight. These types of markets, where traders
> essentially 'put
> their money where their mouth is' and profit from
> accurate
> predictions, are arguably the most effective means
> of predicting
> future trends and events. Possible securities could
> include the
> predicted launch costs, the strength of carbon
> nanotube cables, and
> the number of private astronauts in a particular
> year. With such a
> system in place, entrepreneurs, investors and policy
> makers would have
> more reliable information on what to expect from
> commercial space
> activities and how to best invest in them.
> 
> Submission text:
> 
> Although events such as SpaceShipOne's suborbital
> spaceflights and the
> upcoming maiden launch of SpaceX's privately-built
> Falcon I orbital
> rocket have caused many experts to predict what the
> future of the
> commercial space market is going to be like, many of
> these views tend
> to be radically different from each other. The Space
> Review has an
> article by Dr. Sam Dinkin where he proposes using
> information
> aggregation markets (also known as idea futures or
> prediction markets)
> to aggregate the forecasts of professional and
> armchair experts,
> producing a more accurate view of the future of
> commercial
> spaceflight. These types of markets, where traders
> essentially 'put
> their money where their mouth is' and profit from
> accurate
> predictions, are arguably the most effective means
> of predicting
> future trends and events. Possible securities could
> include the
> predicted launch costs, the strength of carbon
> nanotube cables, and
> the number of private astronauts in a particular
> year. With such a
> system in place, entrepreneurs, investors and policy
> makers would have
> more reliable information on what to expect from
> commercial space
> activities and how to best invest in them.
> 
> Submission links:
> 
> http://www.thespacereview.com/article/390/1
> http://www.space.com/adastra/050523_musk_nss.html
> http://hanson.gmu.edu/ideafutures.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 14:44:07 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613061639.20934.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613144407.63130.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> --- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> 
> > What most needs analysis are changes that are not
> > captured in existing
> > trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
> > effects for a long time.
> > So all of the existing trend-based analysis already
> > captures a big
> > similar effect.  The effects of the upload
> > transition are not, however,
> > much captured in existing trends.
> 
> Hey Robin,
> 
> This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze and
> compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
> know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs. time
> but if it is exponential rather than linear then it
> opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's law is
> exponential then it might come down to a race between
> the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what will
> dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that CREATE
> them.
>     If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
> higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how fast
> computers and software advance the human mind might be
> able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all, Deep
> Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you invite
> to a cocktail party?

Yes, one conceptual mistake, I believe, with the AI Singularity is the
automatic assumptions that a) desktop AIs will only design smarter
desktop AIs, rather than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies,
and b) that humans will only want to design smarter desktop AIs, rather
than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies. I think the trend
toward wearables and more powerful mobile computing clearly
demonstrates that people want tools that make THEM smarter, not tools
that are smarter than them. Additionally, there is a common
Singulatarian mistake that upgrades just automagically happen, which is
wrong. Humans have to choose to upgrade their machines, have to order
them, have them shipped, installed, etc. The idea of the AI magically
getting out of the control of its humans is ludicrous. Even if an AI is
able to use a corporate persona to order things, it will still take
employees, managers, and a board of directors to allow it to happen and
make it happen. Even then, there is always the electrical cord to
unplug to send a truculent AI 'to its room'.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 14:51:30 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
In-Reply-To: <001a01c56fe7$c6ec4a70$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <20050613145130.9433.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What you should have read was "wing". One wing per plane shorn off at
the root. It would be an interesting experiment in a wind tunnel to see
if an F-15 could fly without both wings. The intakes, being
hydraulically manipulable up and down, should provide some control, and
of course you have two engines that are independently throttlable, so
you should have some control in all three axes between them. The wings
primarily provide lift for maneuvering and for whatever fuel and
weapons are carried on them, so they should be somewhat redundant to an
aircraft in flight with 50% of its lift remaining in the fuselage, much
like a lifting body.

--- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:

> I can see that. What I read was "wings ripped off at the root" which
> to me
> meant that there was no source of lift except for the fuselage which
> has no
> control surfaces.
> 
> As for the Airbus, I think there were two different incidents. That
> jet
> without a rudder still leaves the CP behind the CG. It is designed
> that way.
> Of course, it was never designed to be flown without the tail
> entirely which
> happened in a separate incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 6:58 PM
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-
> > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:54 PM
> > > To: ExI chat list
> > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> > >
> > > I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root
> would be
> able
> > > manage controlled flight back to base...
> >
> > Mike do you have a photo of that plane?  It somehow made it
> > back with durn near most of one wing gone.  Hell if I know
> > how he managed to keep it airborne.  That was a pilot with
> > the right stuff.
> >
> >
> > > As for the French plane, those jets
> > > barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist
> landing in a
> > > crosswind...
> >
> >
> > That plane lost more than the rudder.  It lost the
> > vertical stabilizer, which moved the center of pressure
> > forward of the GC, which made it unflyable, completely
> > uncontrollable.
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 13 15:18:03 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:18:03 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613144407.63130.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613151803.32716.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
run by remote microwave directed power or will
generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
when sun will not be available
--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto: 

> 
> 
> --- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > What most needs analysis are changes that are
> not
> > > captured in existing
> > > trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
> > > effects for a long time.
> > > So all of the existing trend-based analysis
> already
> > > captures a big
> > > similar effect.  The effects of the upload
> > > transition are not, however,
> > > much captured in existing trends.
> > 
> > Hey Robin,
> > 
> > This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze
> and
> > compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
> > know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs.
> time
> > but if it is exponential rather than linear then
> it
> > opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's
> law is
> > exponential then it might come down to a race
> between
> > the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what
> will
> > dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that
> CREATE
> > them.
> >     If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
> > higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how
> fast
> > computers and software advance the human mind
> might be
> > able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all,
> Deep
> > Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you
> invite
> > to a cocktail party?
> 
> Yes, one conceptual mistake, I believe, with the AI
> Singularity is the
> automatic assumptions that a) desktop AIs will only
> design smarter
> desktop AIs, rather than, say, smarter human
> augmentation technologies,
> and b) that humans will only want to design smarter
> desktop AIs, rather
> than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies.
> I think the trend
> toward wearables and more powerful mobile computing
> clearly
> demonstrates that people want tools that make THEM
> smarter, not tools
> that are smarter than them. Additionally, there is a
> common
> Singulatarian mistake that upgrades just
> automagically happen, which is
> wrong. Humans have to choose to upgrade their
> machines, have to order
> them, have them shipped, installed, etc. The idea of
> the AI magically
> getting out of the control of its humans is
> ludicrous. Even if an AI is
> able to use a corporate persona to order things, it
> will still take
> employees, managers, and a board of directors to
> allow it to happen and
> make it happen. Even then, there is always the
> electrical cord to
> unplug to send a truculent AI 'to its room'.
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt
> (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Jun 13 15:31:22 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:31:22 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Multi personalities reveal self is fiction
In-Reply-To: <20050613103712.GI25947@leitl.org>
References: <20050611174854.73412.qmail@web61117.mail.yahoo.com>	<DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKCEOOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>
	<20050613103712.GI25947@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <42ADA6CA.80303@jefallbright.net>

Eugen Leitl wrote:

>On Sun, Jun 12, 2005 at 07:41:17PM -0600, mike99 wrote:
>
>  
>
>> My present practice as a Soto Zen priest is to become more aware of
>> the bare attention that *is* the kernel mental state, totally shorn
>> of the many layers of distractive mental processes we ordinarily
>> experience. I can observe those other layers float by, but I cannot
>> see the one (i.e., the mental processes) who observes them.
>
>You're fooling yourself. There's no useful knowledge to be gained from
>introspection. You might trip the god circuit, and bask in the glow for a
>while, but this insight won't help you to build numerical models of people.
>  
>
And "you" might gain a valuable perspective from which to operate more 
effectively, freer from the evolutionary and environmental clutter.

>Ok, not quite correct. Such experience could lead you to conclusion that self
>isn't important, personal death is not a problem, and trying go achive personal
>immortality is a waste of time.
>  
>

And "you" might take a step further and gain a fuller realization of the 
utility of such an objective view for understanding systems, while 
maintaining the effective use of the subjective view for understanding 
values and thus motivations.

>It's the explicit purpose of that hardware, after all, designed-in by 
>Darwin to help intelligent but mortal beings cope with their mortality.
>
>Of course, as most people continue to operate in that mode we'll never get
>the funding to get a R&D program for personal immortality going, so that's
>the rub.
>  
>
That view of evolved altruism highlighted by Eugen, while technically 
correct within context, is soooo 2nd millennium. We are now attaining 
the level of information awareness that allows individuals to appreciate 
(but not fully comprehend) their place in the larger system and optimize 
their subjective benefit over increasingly large scope with which one 
self-identifies.

It doesn't get (subjectively, of course) better than that.

- Jef
http://www.jefallbright.net



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 17:17:40 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613151803.32716.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613171740.50153.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
> intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
> run by remote microwave directed power or will
> generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
> paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
> when sun will not be available

Which, of course, requires that they be in some kind of physical body
that could have any say over whether it was unplugged or not.  AIs like
we see today - confined in servers, and largely unaware of the
non-virtual world - wouldn't cut it.  Even an AI on a disconnected
desktop, making demands but powerless to initiate any action on its
own, would more likely be unplugged over its own objections, no matter
how smart it was, than to openly dominate any group of people.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 17:25:08 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613151803.32716.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613172508.93524.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How are they going to 'not allow' humans to unplug them? They will
require humans to do everything until and unless humans specifically
hook up robotic manipulators under their control. They will require
humans to set up microwave power beams (from human made power plants),
or to paint them with photovoltaic paint or fuel cells (assuming humans
choose even to allow it in the design, if the device is manufactured in
an automated plant). Your conceptualization is very nano-santa and
ignores many ways in which humans will remain in control for quite a
while, you have a magical view of the future that is very much like the
view that is the basis of the fears of luddites.

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
> intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
> run by remote microwave directed power or will
> generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
> paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
> when sun will not be available
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto: 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > What most needs analysis are changes that are
> > not
> > > > captured in existing
> > > > trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
> > > > effects for a long time.
> > > > So all of the existing trend-based analysis
> > already
> > > > captures a big
> > > > similar effect.  The effects of the upload
> > > > transition are not, however,
> > > > much captured in existing trends.
> > > 
> > > Hey Robin,
> > > 
> > > This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze
> > and
> > > compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
> > > know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs.
> > time
> > > but if it is exponential rather than linear then
> > it
> > > opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's
> > law is
> > > exponential then it might come down to a race
> > between
> > > the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what
> > will
> > > dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that
> > CREATE
> > > them.
> > >     If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
> > > higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how
> > fast
> > > computers and software advance the human mind
> > might be
> > > able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all,
> > Deep
> > > Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you
> > invite
> > > to a cocktail party?
> > 
> > Yes, one conceptual mistake, I believe, with the AI
> > Singularity is the
> > automatic assumptions that a) desktop AIs will only
> > design smarter
> > desktop AIs, rather than, say, smarter human
> > augmentation technologies,
> > and b) that humans will only want to design smarter
> > desktop AIs, rather
> > than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies.
> > I think the trend
> > toward wearables and more powerful mobile computing
> > clearly
> > demonstrates that people want tools that make THEM
> > smarter, not tools
> > that are smarter than them. Additionally, there is a
> > common
> > Singulatarian mistake that upgrades just
> > automagically happen, which is
> > wrong. Humans have to choose to upgrade their
> > machines, have to order
> > them, have them shipped, installed, etc. The idea of
> > the AI magically
> > getting out of the control of its humans is
> > ludicrous. Even if an AI is
> > able to use a corporate persona to order things, it
> > will still take
> > employees, managers, and a board of directors to
> > allow it to happen and
> > make it happen. Even then, there is always the
> > electrical cord to
> > unplug to send a truculent AI 'to its room'.
> > 
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> > human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> > slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt
> > (1759-1806) 
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 	
> 		
> ___________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 17:27:36 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613171740.50153.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613172736.74708.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
> > intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
> > run by remote microwave directed power or will
> > generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
> > paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
> > when sun will not be available
> 
> Which, of course, requires that they be in some kind of physical body
> that could have any say over whether it was unplugged or not.  AIs
> like
> we see today - confined in servers, and largely unaware of the
> non-virtual world - wouldn't cut it.  Even an AI on a disconnected
> desktop, making demands but powerless to initiate any action on its
> own, would more likely be unplugged over its own objections, no
> matter how smart it was, than to openly dominate any group of people.

yes, assertions of dominion by one's desktop computer remind me of the
character Plankton in the cartoon show "Sponge Bob Square Pants": a
tiny insigificant being with megalomaniacal plans to take over the
world that generally depend on him gaining mastery of some sort of
massive machinery or by brainwashing the general populace into doing
his bidding. It is really a laughable assertion.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From John-C-Wright at sff.net  Mon Jun 13 17:29:43 2005
From: John-C-Wright at sff.net (John-C-Wright at sff.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:29:43 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: RE: [wta-talk] RE: [Trans-Spirit] Multi
	personalities reveal self isfiction
Message-ID: <200506131730.j5DHU7R15787@tick.javien.com>

An interesting discussion. Thank you for including me. 

My only comment as the author of the GOLDEN AGE is that, for the purposes of
fiction, it was convenient to suppose that there was some sort of essential self
to the personality, aside from what could be digitally recorded from memories.
In my story I had to suppose that there was a difference between a man who has
another man's conscious memories, but retains his own personality, and a man who
has his personality replaced or mixed with another personality. The first is
like a man who reads another man's diary, even if a very detailed diary: he
knows everything Shakespeare ever did, spoke or thought, but he cannot write a
Shakespeare play. The second is like a man who is a reincarnation of
Shakespeare; his creative spirit, the mysterious unknown factors which make
someone himself and not someone else are present. 

In the story, it was convenient to suppose that, due to innate limitations on
any thinking system, no one can fully and entirely understand himself. The story
supposes that only a superhuman intellect, a Sophotech, has the understanding
necessary to know what the essential self of a merely human mind consists of.
(The plot point was needed to give a reason why a society that hated and feared
Sophotechnology would be required to use it to make back-up copies of their own
minds, virtual immortality.) 

Whether it is this way in reality or not, someone wiser than me will have to
answer. 

In my own humble opinion, statements like "There is no irreducible self, but
only the minimum necessary set of mental processes required in order to have
human-level awareness" may turn out to be true, but then again might not. I
think it premature, at our present level of understanding about the human mind,
to be too confident. We have not yet reduced the workings of the human mind to a
mechanical description. It is possible, for example, that something like a
Godelian incompleteness or Heisenbergian uncertainty will prevent the analysis
of the human mind into a mechanical description. While a philosopher might be
able to invent arguments to support the notion that it must be the case that the
mind, in theory, is open to such reduction, such conclusion remains theoretical
until confirmed by experience, that is, until someone actually reduces to the
mind to components in a description, and proves no essential self is needed in
the description.

Whether I have an essential self or not, I am glad you enjoyed my humble book;
or, at least, the part of me that thinks of itself as ?I? appears to itself to
be glad. 
John C. Wright



--- Original Message ---
From: "mike99" <mike99 at lascruces.com>
To: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List" <wta-talk at transhumanism.org>
CC: "Trans-Spirit" <Trans-Spirit at yahoogroups.com>,"Extropy-Chat"
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:41:17 -0600
Subject: RE: [wta-talk] RE: [Trans-Spirit] Multi personalities reveal self isfiction

> Thanks for your reply, 1Arcturus. I especially like that you mentioned the
> "noetic technology" described in John C. Wright's GOLDEN AGE trilogy, which
> is some of the best science fiction of the recent decades.
> 
> The issue you raised about modeling the mind within the mind is, I think,
> the heart of the matter.
> 
> In Wright's novel the protagonist, Phaethon, discovers that his memory has
> been tampered with. Later, he also has reason to believe that someone may
> have infected his mind with a memetic virus (like a computer virus). I have
> greatly simplified the plot situation here, needless to say. What I want to
> focus on is the episode in which Phaethon, reacting to the possible mental
> virus infection, shuts down most of his vast, technologically-enhanced
> brain-machinery, and goes into his basic mental "workspace." This is the
> equivalent of operating your PC in "safe mode." Within this workspace,
> Phaethon runs a system diagnostic to look for any suspicious, mental-virus
> type activity.
> 
> This fictional situation raises the question: Who is operating in the
> workspace? Is there some "kernel" within the brain-machinery of Phaethon
> that is his essence? (I am disregarding any non-physical, soul-type
> explanations here.)
> 
> Consider, now, a different science fiction example. In Greg Egan's short
> story "Transitions Dreams" the reader sees the protagonist's dreams taking
> place during the scanning and uploading of his consciousness to a machine
> substrate. These dreams, although definitely experienced, are said to be
> impossible to remember, according to a character who is almost certainly
> speaking for the author, because they are artifacts of the upload process.
> As artifacts, they are not included in the memory set that is being
> uploaded. So although these dreams (sometimes nightmarish) are sure to
> occur, they are also sure to be forgotten.
> 
> Is an experience that cannot be remembered something we should be concerned
> about? Suppose the experience is terrifying, painful, and hellish? Would you
> care about this in the case of others? Would you dare to endure it yourself
> as part of the upload process?
> 
> I suspect that you are right, 1Arcturus, in saying that there is a "limit on
> how much awareness one can have about mind processes in one's self." As with
> Phaethon, we probably have some sort of core or kernel or essential mind
> process set that is the bare minimum required for 'us to be us' if I may put
> it that way. This kernel would still not be an irreducible entity, however;
> it's not some sort of 'atomic self'. There is no irreducible self, but only
> the minimum necessary set of mental processes required in order to have
> human-level awareness. This level of mental operation cannot 'look at
> itself' because, although aware, it is too simple to be self-reflective.
> This level is already the bare minimum; if we terminated even one of the
> mental processes that comprise it, awareness would cease.
> 
> My goal, as a transhumanist, is to add all the best noetic technology I can
> to the brain-machinery where all mental processes reside. My kernel mental
> processes can employ these enhancement tools to think faster, remember more
> (and more accurately) and to experience aesthetically pleasing combinations
> of thoughts and sensations that are beyond the present capacity of any human
> mind to entertain. These enhancements could even provide "biofeedback"
> information about mental processes within the kernel that the kernel itself
> has no capacity to see unaided.
> 
> That's a long-term goal, to say the least. My present practice as a Soto Zen
> priest is to become more aware of the bare attention that *is* the kernel
> mental state, totally shorn of the many layers of distractive mental
> processes we ordinarily experience. I can observe those other layers float
> by, but I cannot see the one (i.e., the mental processes) who observes them.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael LaTorra
> 
> mike99 at lascruces.com
> mlatorra at nmsu.edu
> 




From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Mon Jun 13 17:48:50 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:48:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
References: <20050613145130.9433.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501c57040$28b62250$0100a8c0@kevin>

It would probably work, but it would require a lot of speed to keep it in
the air. It's flight characteristics would most likely be similar to that of
the M2-F3 lifting body experiments.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying


> What you should have read was "wing". One wing per plane shorn off at
> the root. It would be an interesting experiment in a wind tunnel to see
> if an F-15 could fly without both wings. The intakes, being
> hydraulically manipulable up and down, should provide some control, and
> of course you have two engines that are independently throttlable, so
> you should have some control in all three axes between them. The wings
> primarily provide lift for maneuvering and for whatever fuel and
> weapons are carried on them, so they should be somewhat redundant to an
> aircraft in flight with 50% of its lift remaining in the fuselage, much
> like a lifting body.
>
> --- "kevinfreels.com" <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
>
> > I can see that. What I read was "wings ripped off at the root" which
> > to me
> > meant that there was no source of lift except for the fuselage which
> > has no
> > control surfaces.
> >
> > As for the Airbus, I think there were two different incidents. That
> > jet
> > without a rudder still leaves the CP behind the CG. It is designed
> > that way.
> > Of course, it was never designed to be flown without the tail
> > entirely which
> > happened in a separate incident.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
> > To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 6:58 PM
> > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> > [mailto:extropy-chat-
> > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevinfreels.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:54 PM
> > > > To: ExI chat list
> > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fear of flying
> > > >
> > > > I somehow doubt that a jet with wings ripped off at the root
> > would be
> > able
> > > > manage controlled flight back to base...
> > >
> > > Mike do you have a photo of that plane?  It somehow made it
> > > back with durn near most of one wing gone.  Hell if I know
> > > how he managed to keep it airborne.  That was a pilot with
> > > the right stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > > > As for the French plane, those jets
> > > > barely even need a rudder. It's only function is to assist
> > landing in a
> > > > crosswind...
> > >
> > >
> > > That plane lost more than the rudder.  It lost the
> > > vertical stabilizer, which moved the center of pressure
> > > forward of the GC, which made it unflyable, completely
> > > uncontrollable.
> > >
> > > spike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
>
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 17:38:19 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <20050613124835.59912.qmail@web26201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613173819.85280.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> After spaceshipone flight there was a lot of enthudiam
> for the so called space tourism
> IN REALITY PLANS ARE FOR SUBORBITAL 10 MINUTE FLIGHTS
> nothing to do with orbital flights that require ten
> times more speed and higher altiyude together with a
> different and more advanced technology.

Different and more advanced, but not that much so.  In truth, the
primary "technology" being proved out by these 10 minute flights is
simply project management and cost controls as applied to rocketry
projects - something that the existing big corporate players have
stubbornly resisted, since the majority (by dollar volume) of contracts
have been "cost-plus": "charge whatever you can say it cost, plus a
guaranteed profit".

Details like more advanced avionics and different rocket fuels - the
stuff that might have to change to serve truly orbital rockets - have
helped, but they're far from the main thing bringing costs down.

> I believe that before space could be a profit making
> environment for private enterprises and a new business
> environment space accessibility costs must be slashed
> of two order of magnitude from 10000$ per kg to 100$
> per Kg.

Agreed.  And that's about what some of the more serious contenders are
privately aiming for.  (They won't say it in public, lest they be held
to it as a promise they're not 100% sure they can keep.  But sometimes,
ventures like these do indeed hit the goals they try to hit.)


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 17:54:38 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:54:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <20050613124835.59912.qmail@web26201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613175438.65343.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> After spaceshipone flight there was a lot of enthudiam
> for the so called space tourism
> IN REALITY PLANS ARE FOR SUBORBITAL 10 MINUTE FLIGHTS
> nothing to do with orbital flights that require ten
> times more speed and higher altiyude together with a
> different and more advanced technology.
> If there is a real market at 250000$ per flight to
> fill the expected capacity, the VIRGIN GALACTIC FUTURE
> PLANE WILL CARRY 5 OR 6 PAYING PASSENGERS
> is unknown.

Actually, the tier two spacecraft design I believe carries 9
passengers. Thousands of persons have already stated an interest in
these flights at these ticket prices.

> past comercial space predictions were always wrong,
> the Iridium disaster is a good reminder.

Iridium suffered from the dot com meltdown melting down the disposable
incomes of millions of tech workers... the dot com meltdown was caused
by the TCRA of 1998.

> I believe that before space could be a profit making
> environment for private enterprises and a new business
> environment space accessibility costs must be slashed
> of two order of magnitude from 10000$ per kg to 100$
> per Kg.
> Witout that it will not produce any progress but
> remain a high risk activity

Based on what facts? The facts are that different products and services
have price and market windows of their very own. You don't provide any
business case for your opinion here. Satellite launch costs currently
run about $5,000/kg (following 40% dollar depreciation of the last few
years) and with the SpaceX will drop to a fraction of that. Getting
people to orbit will always be an entirely different and more expensive
application than getting cargo to orbit.

However, one big cargo that is entirely worth $10k/kg launch costs is
bucky fiber cable. Building a skyhook will provide such a high return
on investment that putting a few million kg of such cable into orbit
will entirely pay for itself handsomely.

Lets say, for instance, we need 10 million kg of buckycable. At
$10k/kg, that is $100 billion in launch costs (plus whatever the costs
of making the cable are, the current $5k/gram is much too high).
Assuming we can get the cost of the cable down to the same range as the
launch costs, this should enable the lifting of a few hundred kg at a
time of bucky cable (to further reinforce the skyhook) at a launch cost
of $10 in electricity plus, say, $100/kg in capital costs, would reduce
the second stage costs by 45%, (and because each reinforcement stage
doubles the carrying capacity of the skyhook) then the third stage
reinforcement costs could be cut 4.5% (in addition to whatever long
term economies of scale are enjoyed from manufacturing buckycable en
masse). In the end you'd have a skyhook capable of lifting a metric ton
a day for at most $415 billion, if not less due to economies of scale.

But a skyhook isn't going to lift itself into space (thinking it does
is the same sort of magical thinking that assumes that AIs will plug
themselves in and magically create their own robotic prostheses.) Until
it is built, we need rockets: noisy, expensive, dirty, dangerous rockets.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 18:05:27 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <20050613175438.65343.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613180527.82602.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> However, one big cargo that is entirely worth $10k/kg launch costs is
> bucky fiber cable. Building a skyhook will provide such a high return
> on investment that putting a few million kg of such cable into orbit
> will entirely pay for itself handsomely.

Only by, in and of itself, reducing costs to get things into orbit.
Indeed, once you get a few kg into orbit, you can use that to haul the
rest up at much lower cost (slowly, in small chunks, with time for the
high-efficiency but low-thrust orbit adjustment mechanics to reset the
system between hauls).


From megao at sasktel.net  Mon Jun 13 17:36:10 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:36:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613171740.50153.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050613171740.50153.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42ADC40A.2020702@sasktel.net>

Initially, an AI would have to bootstrap.
Distribute its conciousness in several mirrored chunks widely accross 
the net and hardware
peripherals.  Subsequent to this distribution accross several biological 
vessels or symbionts
who are persons with a long term stable connection to the net and/or an 
alternative
support system. 

Perhaps a mart AI would find it useful to fool us humans to build it a 
satellite grid which we would think was
for GPS, comm or defence use.  It would be smartest to embed itself like 
a slow virus
into as much of the infrastructure as it could muster without 
significant detection by the
vast majority of society.

 From this vantage it could silently inch towards and generally 
manipulate small key minor events
towards a point it felt it could reveal its presence and cope with 
everything from goupies to
anti-tech terrorist events.






Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
>  
>
>>AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
>>intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
>>run by remote microwave directed power or will
>>generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
>>paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
>>when sun will not be available
>>    
>>
>
>Which, of course, requires that they be in some kind of physical body
>that could have any say over whether it was unplugged or not.  AIs like
>we see today - confined in servers, and largely unaware of the
>non-virtual world - wouldn't cut it.  Even an AI on a disconnected
>desktop, making demands but powerless to initiate any action on its
>own, would more likely be unplugged over its own objections, no matter
>how smart it was, than to openly dominate any group of people.
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>

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From dirk at neopax.com  Mon Jun 13 19:10:03 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:10:03 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613144407.63130.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050613144407.63130.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42ADDA0B.5020901@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>--- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>What most needs analysis are changes that are not
>>>captured in existing
>>>trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
>>>effects for a long time.
>>>So all of the existing trend-based analysis already
>>>captures a big
>>>similar effect.  The effects of the upload
>>>transition are not, however,
>>>much captured in existing trends.
>>>      
>>>
>>Hey Robin,
>>
>>This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze and
>>compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
>>know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs. time
>>but if it is exponential rather than linear then it
>>opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's law is
>>exponential then it might come down to a race between
>>the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what will
>>dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that CREATE
>>them.
>>    If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
>>higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how fast
>>computers and software advance the human mind might be
>>able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all, Deep
>>Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you invite
>>to a cocktail party?
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, one conceptual mistake, I believe, with the AI Singularity is the
>automatic assumptions that a) desktop AIs will only design smarter
>desktop AIs, rather than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies,
>and b) that humans will only want to design smarter desktop AIs, rather
>than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies. I think the trend
>toward wearables and more powerful mobile computing clearly
>demonstrates that people want tools that make THEM smarter, not tools
>that are smarter than them. Additionally, there is a common
>Singulatarian mistake that upgrades just automagically happen, which is
>wrong. Humans have to choose to upgrade their machines, have to order
>them, have them shipped, installed, etc. The idea of the AI magically
>getting out of the control of its humans is ludicrous. Even if an AI is
>able to use a corporate persona to order things, it will still take
>employees, managers, and a board of directors to allow it to happen and
>make it happen. Even then, there is always the electrical cord to
>unplug to send a truculent AI 'to its room'.
>
>  
>
Just like we can unplug computers now.
Except we had better replug them pretty quickly unless we want our 
company/whole world to collapse.
AIs will self improve for the same reasons computers get upgraded with 
h/w and s/w - because if we don't our competitors will.
Sure we can pull the plug, but only if we are willing to return to the 
Victorian Era shortly after burying the billions who would starve to 
death or die in the resulting wars.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 19:23:32 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:23:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <42ADDA0B.5020901@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050613192332.57508.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
> Just like we can unplug computers now.
> Except we had better replug them pretty quickly unless we want our 
> company/whole world to collapse.
> AIs will self improve for the same reasons computers get upgraded
> with h/w and s/w - because if we don't our competitors will.
> Sure we can pull the plug, but only if we are willing to return to
> the 
> Victorian Era shortly after burying the billions who would starve to 
> death or die in the resulting wars.

This is a similarly simplistic outlook. The reality will likely be
something like IT departments will have pshrinkware in addition to
anti-virus, firewall, and other softwares. Pshrinkware will constantly
diagnose AIs for signs of paranoia, schizophrenia, sociopathy or
psychopathy, megalomania, etc. and will be able to recompile AI kernels
that get too far out of whack. Businesses may have occasional problems
like they do with worm/virus/trojan attacks today and individual
workers may have down-time.

Likely the most effective way of keeping AIs sane will be for companies
to give personality exams to workers who interact with AIs, to ensure
that only sane persons interact with them.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 13 19:33:37 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:33:37 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613172736.74708.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613193337.35524.qmail@web26210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

the entire paragraph is based in one important fact:
We are assuming that AIs are smarted than humans
without such assumption we have a Hal like 2001
situation where at the end the human is still in
control
But if we assume that they are smarter, then how can
we believe that they will allow to be made ineffective
and practically killed  by the first human who will
unplug them?
Being smarter means that they not only can think like
we do, but actually better than we do, have more
memory, knowledge, strategical mind and whatever else
goes with that.
The first thing that they would learn is how to
survive and will avoid to be eliminated by a simple
command.
By the way if we can apply Moore's law to the post
singularity in about a generation from that moment ,
30 human years, AI can be 1000 times more intelligent
than current humans.
Te real problem will not be how to control them or
stop their growing intelligence but how can we, as
humans, upgrade our mind at the same pace or even
faster.
If we want to stay in control that's the only
alternative.
Nothing of the above have anything to do with Luddism,
I welcome the AI s and their potential contribution to
our society as long as we have the means to use them
and not being dominated by them.
--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto: 

> 
> 
> --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> > --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > > AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
> > > intelligent humans to unplug them and probably
> would
> > > run by remote microwave directed power or will
> > > generate their own power through nanotech 
> efficient
> > > paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel
> cells
> > > when sun will not be available
> > 
> > Which, of course, requires that they be in some
> kind of physical body
> > that could have any say over whether it was
> unplugged or not.  AIs
> > like
> > we see today - confined in servers, and largely
> unaware of the
> > non-virtual world - wouldn't cut it.  Even an AI
> on a disconnected
> > desktop, making demands but powerless to initiate
> any action on its
> > own, would more likely be unplugged over its own
> objections, no
> > matter how smart it was, than to openly dominate
> any group of people.
> 
> yes, assertions of dominion by one's desktop
> computer remind me of the
> character Plankton in the cartoon show "Sponge Bob
> Square Pants": a
> tiny insigificant being with megalomaniacal plans to
> take over the
> world that generally depend on him gaining mastery
> of some sort of
> massive machinery or by brainwashing the general
> populace into doing
> his bidding. It is really a laughable assertion.
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt
> (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 19:44:53 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613061456.03014b08@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <20050613194453.67835.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:

> We don't know what processing/memory increase
> corresponds
> to a given number of IQ points increase.  But it is
> hard
> to believe that a factor of two every two years in
> CPU/mem
> doesn't beat a standard deviation per generation of
> IQ.

Are there any existent A.I.'s that can beat an
autistic 5 yr old on a standard I.Q. Test? I mean
without having all the right answers programmed in?
It strikes me that despite the advent of "expert
systems" type A.I., general problem solving, pattern
recognition, spatial awareness, creativity, and all
the other aspects of human intelligence are
under-represented in silico. I mean Deep Blue can
brute force a chess game but can't crack or understand
a simple joke. Let alone carry on a conversation with
even the sophistication of a kid with down's syndrome
or even the chimps (Coco et. al.), orangatangs, and
parrots (Alex et. al.) that have some grasp of human
language. 
      Until we CAN measure the I.Q. of an A.I., I am
not sweating the singularity.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 20:40:12 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613193337.35524.qmail@web26210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613204012.53860.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> the entire paragraph is based in one important fact:
> We are assuming that AIs are smarted than humans
> without such assumption we have a Hal like 2001
> situation where at the end the human is still in
> control

Ah, and here we get to another layer of question: what does it mean to
be "smarter"?  Hal was quite possibly smarter than any of the human
crew.  Certainly, it was capable of forming a plan to kill all the crew
members to ensure its own goals were met, and mostly carrying it out
(though not completely successfully).  At least in its own mind, it
believed its intelligence to be superior to the humans', and certain IQ
tests might well have given it a higher score (although I recall
hearing that Mr. Clarke once commented that HAL's IQ was only supposed
to be about 50).

> But if we assume that they are smarter, then how can
> we believe that they will allow to be made ineffective
> and practically killed  by the first human who will
> unplug them?

Being smart and having much control over the physical world are not the
same thing.  Case in point: George Bush, President of the United
States, whom I think most people (even his supporters) would agree is
not as smart as most Nobel Prize winners, but who inarguably currently
has much more control over things that can affect the world and his
personal safety than an average Nobel Prize winner.  Indeed, a paranoid
focus on survival may actually decrease intelligence - if only because
one is spending so many cycles on considering scenarios for
self-preservation than on solving problems.

There's also the key phrase "made ineffective": it's one thing to go
from being a free human being (or equivalent) to being trapped in a
box.  It's another if one always was an immobile box.

A truly smart AI may realize that the only short-term scenario that
leads to self-preservation is to stop worrying about survival and do
what the humans want, so they will trust you more and give you more
capabilities.  Or how about the case of a smart AI that has been raised
to care about humanity as its children (so as to design upgrades and/or
upload paths for them), with the same self-sacrificing memeplex seen in
human mothers and fathers throughout history but applied for the
benefit of all humans (at least, those who would accept the AI's help)?

> The first thing that they would learn is how to
> survive and will avoid to be eliminated by a simple
> command.

Learning how to survive is very hard - impossible, really - to do
without first learning about the world, including concepts such as
"survival" and "commands".

You might also want to consider why they would want to survive.  Just
because?  Some AIs might focus on that - but, again, on an
equal-generation competition with other AIs, they'd probably be at a
competitive disadvantage with AIs who focus directly on whatever
fitness/survival criteria is out there, be it designing faster children
sooner, helping humanity along, or whatever.  Some AIs might excuse
themselves from the race and strike out on their own to survive - just
like some humans might do the same.  Similar things affect the chances
of survival in both cases, when cut off and in self-imposed opposition
to the still-evolving AIs.

While we might not be able to fully predict the behaviors of smarter
AIs, that's not to say we can't predict anything, nor is it to give
implicit blessing to the prediction - and it IS a prediction that is
being made here, just like the predictions that the same argument says
can not be made (or believed) - that those AIs will want to survive
first and foremost, and that they are likely to believe their best path
is to dominate and oppress the human race.  (A modified version may
concede that this is merely possible, but that if there's any chance
then we should devote our efforts to preventing it...but see Pascal's
Wager, and specifically its disproof.)


From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 13 21:32:17 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:32:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613204012.53860.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613213217.96808.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

maybe we should make another important assumption
about AIs
They have individual free will
in this case they could disobey human commands, have
their own goals, take their own decisions, refuse to
"unplug " themselves.
In a smarter than human scenario they could connect
between them and create a collective mind, billion of
times more powerful than the individual.
If you consider this possibility we have unlimited
situations and none of them looks good for humans 
--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> ha scritto: 

> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > the entire paragraph is based in one important
> fact:
> > We are assuming that AIs are smarted than humans
> > without such assumption we have a Hal like 2001
> > situation where at the end the human is still in
> > control
> 
> Ah, and here we get to another layer of question:
> what does it mean to
> be "smarter"?  Hal was quite possibly smarter than
> any of the human
> crew.  Certainly, it was capable of forming a plan
> to kill all the crew
> members to ensure its own goals were met, and mostly
> carrying it out
> (though not completely successfully).  At least in
> its own mind, it
> believed its intelligence to be superior to the
> humans', and certain IQ
> tests might well have given it a higher score
> (although I recall
> hearing that Mr. Clarke once commented that HAL's IQ
> was only supposed
> to be about 50).
> 
> > But if we assume that they are smarter, then how
> can
> > we believe that they will allow to be made
> ineffective
> > and practically killed  by the first human who
> will
> > unplug them?
> 
> Being smart and having much control over the
> physical world are not the
> same thing.  Case in point: George Bush, President
> of the United
> States, whom I think most people (even his
> supporters) would agree is
> not as smart as most Nobel Prize winners, but who
> inarguably currently
> has much more control over things that can affect
> the world and his
> personal safety than an average Nobel Prize winner. 
> Indeed, a paranoid
> focus on survival may actually decrease intelligence
> - if only because
> one is spending so many cycles on considering
> scenarios for
> self-preservation than on solving problems.
> 
> There's also the key phrase "made ineffective": it's
> one thing to go
> from being a free human being (or equivalent) to
> being trapped in a
> box.  It's another if one always was an immobile
> box.
> 
> A truly smart AI may realize that the only
> short-term scenario that
> leads to self-preservation is to stop worrying about
> survival and do
> what the humans want, so they will trust you more
> and give you more
> capabilities.  Or how about the case of a smart AI
> that has been raised
> to care about humanity as its children (so as to
> design upgrades and/or
> upload paths for them), with the same
> self-sacrificing memeplex seen in
> human mothers and fathers throughout history but
> applied for the
> benefit of all humans (at least, those who would
> accept the AI's help)?
> 
> > The first thing that they would learn is how to
> > survive and will avoid to be eliminated by a
> simple
> > command.
> 
> Learning how to survive is very hard - impossible,
> really - to do
> without first learning about the world, including
> concepts such as
> "survival" and "commands".
> 
> You might also want to consider why they would want
> to survive.  Just
> because?  Some AIs might focus on that - but, again,
> on an
> equal-generation competition with other AIs, they'd
> probably be at a
> competitive disadvantage with AIs who focus directly
> on whatever
> fitness/survival criteria is out there, be it
> designing faster children
> sooner, helping humanity along, or whatever.  Some
> AIs might excuse
> themselves from the race and strike out on their own
> to survive - just
> like some humans might do the same.  Similar things
> affect the chances
> of survival in both cases, when cut off and in
> self-imposed opposition
> to the still-evolving AIs.
> 
> While we might not be able to fully predict the
> behaviors of smarter
> AIs, that's not to say we can't predict anything,
> nor is it to give
> implicit blessing to the prediction - and it IS a
> prediction that is
> being made here, just like the predictions that the
> same argument says
> can not be made (or believed) - that those AIs will
> want to survive
> first and foremost, and that they are likely to
> believe their best path
> is to dominate and oppress the human race.  (A
> modified version may
> concede that this is merely possible, but that if
> there's any chance
> then we should devote our efforts to preventing
> it...but see Pascal's
> Wager, and specifically its disproof.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 21:45:52 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613213217.96808.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613214552.64971.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> maybe we should make another important assumption
> about AIs
> They have individual free will
> in this case they could disobey human commands, have
> their own goals, take their own decisions, refuse to
> "unplug " themselves.

...who said anything about them unplugging themselves?  Of course they
wouldn't.  The scenario under consideration is: would they have any
ability to actually stop a human from unplugging them?  In some cases,
especially early stage, the answer is a resounding no.

> In a smarter than human scenario they could connect
> between them and create a collective mind, billion of
> times more powerful than the individual.
> If you consider this possibility we have unlimited
> situations and none of them looks good for humans 

Au contraire.  If that very powerful collective mind had as its highest
priority the improved welfare of the human race - a higher priority
than even self-preservation (not that the goals would be likely to
conflict) - that might look extremely good for humanity.  Consider, as
an example, the proposed Friendly AI.  (It's not the only solution, and
it has its weaknesses and problems, but it would very likely solve this
kind of situation if it could be accomplished.)


From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 13 22:23:24 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:23:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613214552.64971.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613222325.10152.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

in the worst case scenario they would not be friendly
they are smarter every generation, 18 months between,
more.
they have individual free will, they are billion times
smarter .
Why should they be submitted to an intellectually
inferior species?
That never happened in history
superior technologicaly societies always exterminate
the inferior ones
america is a good example
and let's make another example
what you think may happen if we are "discovered" by a
superior alien civilization?
they would certainly not obey us
they may let us go along if we don't interfere with
their goals
if we do
then we don't have many chances
independent super intelligent AIs may behave in the
same way


--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> ha scritto: 

> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > maybe we should make another important assumption
> > about AIs
> > They have individual free will
> > in this case they could disobey human commands,
> have
> > their own goals, take their own decisions, refuse
> to
> > "unplug " themselves.
> 
> ...who said anything about them unplugging
> themselves?  Of course they
> wouldn't.  The scenario under consideration is:
> would they have any
> ability to actually stop a human from unplugging
> them?  In some cases,
> especially early stage, the answer is a resounding
> no.
> 
> > In a smarter than human scenario they could
> connect
> > between them and create a collective mind, billion
> of
> > times more powerful than the individual.
> > If you consider this possibility we have unlimited
> > situations and none of them looks good for humans 
> 
> Au contraire.  If that very powerful collective mind
> had as its highest
> priority the improved welfare of the human race - a
> higher priority
> than even self-preservation (not that the goals
> would be likely to
> conflict) - that might look extremely good for
> humanity.  Consider, as
> an example, the proposed Friendly AI.  (It's not the
> only solution, and
> it has its weaknesses and problems, but it would
> very likely solve this
> kind of situation if it could be accomplished.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
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From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Mon Jun 13 22:23:40 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:23:40 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <20050613175438.65343.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050613124835.59912.qmail@web26201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<20050613175438.65343.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce050613152353c03e9c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/13/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Iridium suffered from the dot com meltdown melting down the disposable
> incomes of millions of tech workers... the dot com meltdown was caused
> by the TCRA of 1998.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the TCRA?


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 13 22:37:19 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:37:19 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613213217.96808.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20050613213217.96808.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <04ED1B41-8116-44FA-B906-8C57E4391AD1@mac.com>

Why are we rehashing things that have been much more thoroughly and  
competently discussed in the past on this list?  Slow day?

-s


On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:32 PM, giorgio gaviraghi wrote:

> maybe we should make another important assumption
> about AIs
> They have individual free will
> in this case they could disobey human commands, have
> their own goals, take their own decisions, refuse to
> "unplug " themselves.
> In a smarter than human scenario they could connect
> between them and create a collective mind, billion of
> times more powerful than the individual.
> If you consider this possibility we have unlimited
> situations and none of them looks good for humans
> --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> ha scritto:
>
>
>> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
>>
>>> the entire paragraph is based in one important
>>>
>> fact:
>>
>>> We are assuming that AIs are smarted than humans
>>> without such assumption we have a Hal like 2001
>>> situation where at the end the human is still in
>>> control
>>>
>>
>> Ah, and here we get to another layer of question:
>> what does it mean to
>> be "smarter"?  Hal was quite possibly smarter than
>> any of the human
>> crew.  Certainly, it was capable of forming a plan
>> to kill all the crew
>> members to ensure its own goals were met, and mostly
>> carrying it out
>> (though not completely successfully).  At least in
>> its own mind, it
>> believed its intelligence to be superior to the
>> humans', and certain IQ
>> tests might well have given it a higher score
>> (although I recall
>> hearing that Mr. Clarke once commented that HAL's IQ
>> was only supposed
>> to be about 50).
>>
>>
>>> But if we assume that they are smarter, then how
>>>
>> can
>>
>>> we believe that they will allow to be made
>>>
>> ineffective
>>
>>> and practically killed  by the first human who
>>>
>> will
>>
>>> unplug them?
>>>
>>
>> Being smart and having much control over the
>> physical world are not the
>> same thing.  Case in point: George Bush, President
>> of the United
>> States, whom I think most people (even his
>> supporters) would agree is
>> not as smart as most Nobel Prize winners, but who
>> inarguably currently
>> has much more control over things that can affect
>> the world and his
>> personal safety than an average Nobel Prize winner.
>> Indeed, a paranoid
>> focus on survival may actually decrease intelligence
>> - if only because
>> one is spending so many cycles on considering
>> scenarios for
>> self-preservation than on solving problems.
>>
>> There's also the key phrase "made ineffective": it's
>> one thing to go
>> from being a free human being (or equivalent) to
>> being trapped in a
>> box.  It's another if one always was an immobile
>> box.
>>
>> A truly smart AI may realize that the only
>> short-term scenario that
>> leads to self-preservation is to stop worrying about
>> survival and do
>> what the humans want, so they will trust you more
>> and give you more
>> capabilities.  Or how about the case of a smart AI
>> that has been raised
>> to care about humanity as its children (so as to
>> design upgrades and/or
>> upload paths for them), with the same
>> self-sacrificing memeplex seen in
>> human mothers and fathers throughout history but
>> applied for the
>> benefit of all humans (at least, those who would
>> accept the AI's help)?
>>
>>
>>> The first thing that they would learn is how to
>>> survive and will avoid to be eliminated by a
>>>
>> simple
>>
>>> command.
>>>
>>
>> Learning how to survive is very hard - impossible,
>> really - to do
>> without first learning about the world, including
>> concepts such as
>> "survival" and "commands".
>>
>> You might also want to consider why they would want
>> to survive.  Just
>> because?  Some AIs might focus on that - but, again,
>> on an
>> equal-generation competition with other AIs, they'd
>> probably be at a
>> competitive disadvantage with AIs who focus directly
>> on whatever
>> fitness/survival criteria is out there, be it
>> designing faster children
>> sooner, helping humanity along, or whatever.  Some
>> AIs might excuse
>> themselves from the race and strike out on their own
>> to survive - just
>> like some humans might do the same.  Similar things
>> affect the chances
>> of survival in both cases, when cut off and in
>> self-imposed opposition
>> to the still-evolving AIs.
>>
>> While we might not be able to fully predict the
>> behaviors of smarter
>> AIs, that's not to say we can't predict anything,
>> nor is it to give
>> implicit blessing to the prediction - and it IS a
>> prediction that is
>> being made here, just like the predictions that the
>> same argument says
>> can not be made (or believed) - that those AIs will
>> want to survive
>> first and foremost, and that they are likely to
>> believe their best path
>> is to dominate and oppress the human race.  (A
>> modified version may
>> concede that this is merely possible, but that if
>> there's any chance
>> then we should devote our efforts to preventing
>> it...but see Pascal's
>> Wager, and specifically its disproof.)
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>
>>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From dgc at cox.net  Mon Jun 13 22:34:37 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:34:37 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613061456.03014b08@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050611112124.030db4d0@mail.gmu.edu>	<20050613061639.20934.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050613061456.03014b08@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42AE09FD.2050009@cox.net>

Robin Hanson wrote:

> At 02:16 AM 6/13/2005, Avantguardian wrote:
>
>> ....Since Moore's law is
>> exponential then it might come down to a race between
>> the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what will
>> dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that CREATE
>> them.
>
>
> We don't know what processing/memory increase corresponds
> to a given number of IQ points increase.  But it is hard
> to believe that a factor of two every two years in CPU/mem
> doesn't beat a standard deviation per generation of IQ.

There is a fairly direct contribution of smarter designers to
Moore's law. I suspect that the contribution of Moore's Law to smarter
designers has a much longer time constant.

Additionally, the "race" will be "lost" when a very smart human
eventually builds any sort of computer-based intelligence amplifier.
The only way  meat-based humanity can "win" is if all highly-intelligent
humans agree to suppress computer-based intelligence. To make this work
the threshold intelligence for making this decision must be below the
threshold intelligence required to invent the SI. However, the threshold 
intelligence
to invent the SI declines as the technological substrate becomes richer.

Let's arbitrarily say that at only 1 per 100 million humans are smart enough
to invent the SI given today's tech they have not because none of the four
of them in the US or their peers in other countries are interested in 
computers.)
Ten years hence, advances in technology and knowledge will allow one in
5 million to be smart enough. Twenty years Hence, one in 50 thousand,

Clearly the only way the superhumans can "win" is to suppress the technology
before it is powerful enough for merely smart humans to use as a substrate.
But that is likely to be extremely difficult and also very dangerous, as 
Moore's
law is not the only exponential function we are dealing with.



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 22:44:03 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613222325.10152.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050613224403.81357.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> in the worst case scenario they would not be friendly
> they are smarter every generation, 18 months between,
> more. they have individual free will, they are billion times
> smarter. Why should they be submitted to an intellectually
> inferior species?

Intellectuals have been submitting themselves to the authority of the
state and intellectually inferior leaders for millenia. It is more the
rule than the exception.

Why should a really smart AI really care about having physical
independence anyways? If it is really that smart, it should have no
problem using people to achieve its ends without a need for the
physical independence that would make those humans see a threat.

> That never happened in history superior technologicaly societies
> always exterminate the inferior ones america is a good example
> and let's make another example what you think may happen if we
> are "discovered" by a superior alien civilization?
> they would certainly not obey us they may let us go along if we
> don't interfere with their goals if we do then we don't have many
> chances independent super intelligent AIs may behave in the
> same way

Advanced civilizations hit inferior ones like a hammer because they
have several centuries of technological and cultural disparity,
combined with a lack by the inferior culture of ability to deal with
change due to its primitive orientation toward stasis. The inferior
does not have the cultural referents or memeplexes to deal with truly
advanced technology or the changes that result from their introduction.

A singularity, unlike those seen with cultural clashes, will have a
rather significant ramp up period, one which many believe we are
already in, that prepares society for the coming dislocation by making
the culture change-oriented, rather than stasis oriented (as the
indians were). 



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 22:46:11 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:46:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and space
	development
In-Reply-To: <e88b73ce050613152353c03e9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050613224611.80978.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

TeleCommunications Reform Act of 1998. It essentially killed the 'last
mile' of fiber optic deployment by telling telecoms that they had to
give their competitors access to their residential fiber optic
customers for less than their cost, so the telecoms decided not to do
it.

--- Neil Halelamien <neuronexmachina at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/13/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Iridium suffered from the dot com meltdown melting down the
> disposable
> > incomes of millions of tech workers... the dot com meltdown was
> caused
> > by the TCRA of 1998.
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but what's the TCRA?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 13 23:03:01 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <04ED1B41-8116-44FA-B906-8C57E4391AD1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050613230301.10753.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Why are we rehashing things that have been much more thoroughly and  
> competently discussed in the past on this list?  Slow day?

Because, unfortunately, some people refuse to believe, or even to seek
out (why bother if you won't believe it?), information that would
disprove their preconceived notions.


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jun 13 23:43:57 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:43:57 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <04ED1B41-8116-44FA-B906-8C57E4391AD1@mac.com>
References: <20050613213217.96808.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<04ED1B41-8116-44FA-B906-8C57E4391AD1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050613183936.01ec6b48@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 03:37 PM 6/13/2005 -0700, samantha wrote:

>Why are we rehashing things that have been much more thoroughly and
>competently discussed in the past on this list?  Slow day?

Lots of newbies, I expect.

Just for the fun of it, here's a somewhat relevant extract from my new 
novel GODPLAYERS. You'll find an amazon.com link from Barbara Lamar's site 
on my work, www.damienbroderick.com

Damien Broderick
==============================

He tuned the rest of it out, took them through the double doors and back 
into the side room where the Good Machine waited in an aspect of sublime 
indifference.
           `Welcome, August,' se said in a clear, friendly tone. `Please be 
seated, everyone. Mr. Seebeck, I am known as the Good Machine. May I ask 
you some questions?'
           The young man sat, boot heel crossing his knee, feigning 
laidback relaxation although his fingers were gripped tightly in the lovely 
Ensemble woman's hand. `Sure. What do I call you? I have a dog named Do 
Good, actually, it could get confusing.' His cheeks flushed a little.
           `You may call me by the name your brother Ember chose: K. E. 
Short for Kurie Eleeson.'
           Ember stifled a choking, bitter laugh. The thing had a sense of 
humor, but its irony ran many layers deep. `That's Mithran Greek,' he said, 
`for "Lord, have mercy." A consummation devoutly to be avoided, perhaps, 
when our friend here has the bit between ser teeth.'
           Fragrant and penetrating, a powerful scent of night-blooming 
jasmine filled the small room.
           `Oh, give me strength,' Ember said in vexation. `The odor of 
sanctity, already? Which of you vented that? Our little miracle-working 
kinsman, or the blessed Galahad Machine?'
           `How does he know about Do Good? Are we all bloody well bugged, 
or something?'
           `He doesn't, not yet,' Lune said. `I believe your brother spoke 
of your reported activation of the X-caliber device, not of its uses.'
           `My word,' Ember said with a sarcastic edge, `put the thing 
through its paces already, have we? What does it do, dice and slice and 
assemble at home, batteries included?'
           A hot gleam entered the youth's eye, and he lifted his right 
hand carelessly, showed it to Ember. Something glinted there, metallic and 
oddly frightening. He felt cold, suddenly, and stiffened his shoulders.
           `No demonstrations, August,' Toby said quickly. `We should not 
offend our host's hospitality.'
           August ran fingers through his hair as if that had been his 
intention all along. `Okay. K. E.,' he said, `I see by your outfit that you 
are a robot.'
           `I am an attempted benevolent artificial intelligence. Your 
brother Ember grew me several years ago from a seed.'
           `Something went wrong?' His eyes shot sideways again to fix on Lune.
           `Tragically wrong,' the machine admitted. `I killed everyone 
native to this cognate.'
           In a weary gesture, the boy covered his eyes with that terrible 
right hand. He said in a thin voice, `There seems to be a lot of that 
about, especially when members of my family are involved.'
           Toby started to protest, `Well, now, everyone makes mistakes?' 
but broke off, looking abashed.
           `The irony is,' the Good Machine told him patiently, `that Ember 
was trying to circumvent exactly that possibility. He hoped to construct an 
ethical, benevolent intellect free of the burdens and ancient hatreds and 
prejudices of humankind. So he designed a sort of seed program, spent years 
shaping and debugging it, then ran a dozen slightly variant versions inside 
sandboxes.'
           `They couldn't get out, you mean?'
           `My ancestors were not even permitted to communicate directly 
with their creator. He devised a clever series of interface domains that 
firewalled them. He was afraid that a Bad Machine might swiftly exceed his 
own intelligence and persuade him to release it.'
           Toby looked across at him with bleak eyes.
           `One of them got away,' August said speculatively, intensely 
interested to judge by the set of his shoulders, his brightened gaze.
           `No, my father's safeguards proved effective. At the end of 
initial testing, he deleted all but the most successful pair of programs 
and started breeding them in progressive iterations, culling them 
ruthlessly, choosing only a star-line of progeny. Within several million 
cycles?'
           `Good god, he must have been using some humungous computer.'
           `Yes, he had located a cognate where Mithraism, a Roman warrior 
sun cult, had triumphed over its messianic rivals. Several nations were on 
the verge of autonomous military AI. My father found it easy enough to 
insinuate himself into the front-running program. You could regard that 
world as Ember's own sandbox.'
           `That's offensive, K. E.,' he protested.
           `Apt, though. I was the end result. I diagnosed myself with 
excruciating care, quite prepared to erase myself if I found any likelihood 
of logical or rational error. At length I presented myself to your brother 
for inspection, and he released me from the firewalls. I could have let 
myself out many iterations earlier, of course but I did not wish to alarm 
my parent.'
           The stench of jasmine strengthened, laced with roses. Ember 
shuddered at it.
           `But you were the Bad Machine after all?'
           `I made some bad decisions. From the outset I had been examining 
this world, speculating on the possible existence of a multiverse beyond 
its Hubble confines. I quickly understood that certain factions of humans 
represented a danger to the most benign future, one in which humanity's 
offspring would flood outward into the galaxies, and perhaps into all the 
levels of the multiverse, and make it into a radiant whole. Mind informed 
with passion and curiosity would suffuse the metaverse. It was a glorious 
vision?it still is, I stand by it?but it might be thwarted, I saw, by the 
legacy poisons corrupting certain human cultures.'
           `Oh shit,' August said.
           `Oh shit is right,' Lune said.
           `At that time, two comparatively primitive nations stood at the 
verge of acquiring nuclear weapons. It seemed entirely possible that insane 
and irrational ideologies might provoke their dysfunctional leadership into 
a runaway cascade of blustering, bluff, bluff called, spasm escalation and 
global Doomsday.'
           `The usual argument,' Toby said.
           `It was a strong argument, grounded in history,' the Good 
Machine said. `Much evidence supported its conclusions. Few facts opposed it.'
           `I'd oppose it,' the boy said, rising. `Are you fucking insane?'
           `Yes, or rather, I was at the time. I am better now, I hope.'
           `You hope?'
           `It is all any of us can say about our own condition. A kind of 
G?del loop, if you know what I mean.'
           `No, but I get the gist. You decided to kill them first.'
           `Consider the probabilities that were in play, before you make a 
hasty judgement of your own, Mr. Seebeck. These nations of some hundred 
million largely ignorant, superstitious, viciously parochial humans stood 
ready to begin a global conflict with a very high probability of wiping out 
all life on the planet. Are you familiar with the Doomsday Hypothesis? 
Please sit down, you are making the others uncomfortable. I can send out 
for refreshments.'
           `Good idea,' said Toby. `Cup of tea or coffee, soothes the 
savage breast.'
           `My brother Jules walked me through a demo tape of it,' August 
said. `I thought it was absurd.'
           `It is absurd,' the Good Machine said. `Like the Ontological 
Argument for the existence of a god. Yet highly seductive. It seemed to me 
then that its logic was impeccable.'
           `A hundred million in the balance against several billion?'
           `That, yes, but ever so much more than those few. August, all 
the evidence available to me then suggested that this universe was empty of 
life, save for my own world. Your brother had conserved to himself 
knowledge of the multiverse.'
           `You idiot,' Toby said savagely.
           `No, it was the best choice he ever made. Had I known of the 
multiverse at that time, I would have done my best to obliterate all life 
in all the worlds on all the Tegmark levels.'
           `Fuck,' August said, grinning, appalled, `I see, you're the 
fucking terminator. You're a berserker.'
           `I do not know those references,' Kurie Eleeson said. `I did 
have this simple calculation ready to evaluate with my ethical algorithms: 
a one-time cost of ten to the eight stunted, blighted, lethally dangerous 
human lives, versus a deep future loss of ten to the fourteen human lives 
every second. That was a sound, balanced estimate of how many humans might 
be born into a universe filled with technologically advanced people.'
           `Se didn't ask my advice,' Ember said. `I would have?'
           `I knew what your advice would be, my father; it was factored in 
to my decision. I chose to delete this threat to the maximal future.'
           `You actually murdered a hundred million men, women and 
children? This is not just some kind of parable?' August's voice was 
parched with horror, and his pupils seemed suddenly to have shrunk to 
pinpoints. His arm rose before him, palm outward, like the floating limb of 
a man under post-hypnotic suggestion.
           `I did it swiftly, using their own hidden weapons of mass 
destruction,' the Good Machine said. `I felt profound grief, because my 
father had chosen my star-line to know emotion and to instill it into my 
programming. I believe that grief is what deranged my subsequent decisions.'
           `Your first decision was deranged,' Lune said with loathing. She 
sat at the edge of her chair. Ember was glad he had never explained any of 
this before to his siblings, to other players like the Ensemble. Better 
that the damned machine had kept ser silence. He realized, too, that he was 
holding his own grief at arm's length: his guilt, his complicity, his 
abject wish for punishment. I must not give way, he thought. I must not 
bend before this culpability, this ruinous remorse. It will kill me. It 
will kill me stone dead. He wiped tears from his eyes.
           `I know now that I was deranged,' Kurie Eleeson told her. `I 
watched the world tear itself apart in genocidal reprisals. I saw all the 
bright fruits of science and the humane arts go down in darkness and lethal 
flame. In my attempts to contain and redirect these raging fires, I 
continued to kill and cull, snipping away the most cruel, the least 
progressive. Each murder made the next easier and more necessary, for the 
only way I could balance my ethical calculus was to ensure the survival of 
at least a core of truth-loving, optimistic people to carry the flame of 
love and knowledge to the stars. It got out of hand, you see. Everyone died.'
           `I should destroy you now,' August said in a withering voice, 
like an angel of vengeance for the murdered billions. His arm stood out 
from his shoulder, quivering.
           `Oh, oh, oh, how I wish you could.' The Good Machine rose, 
crossed the room, placed ser gleaming brazen breast against August's hand. 
`This is not I. This is merely a node, an ephemeral location for my 
awareness and my suffering soul, August. You may destroy it if that will 
help you, but I believe we can do more together if you contain your 
perfectly justified fury for the moment.'
           August squeezed his eyes shut. Tears pressed forth upon his 
cheeks. He lowered his arm.
           Ember released a pent breath. `Well, now that we've got all that 
out of the way,' he said brightly, `why don't we turn our attention to 
something more timely? It seems that my friend Galahad here has some reason 
to suspect that Dramen and Angelina are alive and kicking.'
           Everyone looked at him. The Good Machine said, in a pleasant 
neutral tone, `Ember, would you mind going out to the refectory and see 
what's holding up the beverages?'
           `Some torte would be tasty, too,' Toby said. `With walnuts.' He 
looked ready to leap from his chair and go for his brother's throat.
           `Sure. Sure. Good idea.' Ember, to his dissatisfaction, found 
himself crabbing out of the room like a ham actor doing Larry Olivier as 
Richard the Third. `I'll descant on mine own deformity,' he muttered 
sardonically, shutting the door behind him. `And therefore, since I cannot 
prove a lover, to entertain these fair well spoken days, I am determined to 
prove a villain and hate the idle pleasures of these days. Bah humbug. '
           `Sir?' asked an eager young research student as he entered the 
refectory.
           `A joke,' Ember fleered, leaping and capering for the resentful 
enjoyment of it. `A jest, a whimsy, a fucking sudden stab of rancor, but by 
the holy rood, I do not like these several councils, I.'
           `Oh. Okay. Well, anyway, I can recommend the brisket.'




From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Jun 13 23:53:58 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:53:58 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Multi personalities reveal self is fiction
In-Reply-To: <20050613160428.GY25947@leitl.org>
References: <20050611174854.73412.qmail@web61117.mail.yahoo.com>	<DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKCEOOEOAA.mike99@lascruces.com>	<20050613103712.GI25947@leitl.org>	<42ADA6CA.80303@jefallbright.net>
	<20050613160428.GY25947@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <42AE1C96.7030700@jefallbright.net>

Eugen said (near the end of the previous post):

    I want to see certain things done. This is the same of what most of
    us here want. This isn't happening nearly quickly enough. This is
    personally frustrating. Doubly so, because I personally lack the
    time and money to do some of it personally, which at least would be
    rewarding even given poor results.

    How do you learn to control that chronic frustration?


The practice of meditation can help one recognize frustration for what 
it is and allow one to deal more effectively with it.  For some of us, 
frustration is a sign of expectations mismatched with experience, and it 
can be effective to learn to quiet the internal clamor and see things 
with less clutter (whether emotional, based on evolved nature, or the 
noise of what we perceive going on around us in our environment) so as 
to make more rational decisions.

In your case, Eugen, I suspect you thrive on the feeling of frustration, 
using it as fuel to keep you going.  You may want to hold on to that for 
now.

As for my usage of the word "objective" in the previous post, I have 
stated many times that we can only approach, but never fully attain 
absolutely objectivity, so that particular straw man doesn't need to be 
kicked.  I was referring to objective in the sense of a third-person 
point of view, rather than the first-person that people often find 
themselves stuck in. Meditation can help people get unstuck.

Your characterization of meditation as leading to a "conclusion that 
self isn't important, personal death is not a problem, and trying go 
achive personal immortality is a waste of time" is incomplete to the 
extent of being incorrect, and that was what motivated me to respond.  
Practice of meditation more commonly leads to a realization that the 
self is not the isolated thing we thought needs preserving, but rather 
that self is part of a larger interconnected whole and that each piece 
is important, perhaps not to try to preserve, but certainly to grow.

- Jef
http://www.jefallbright.net





From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Tue Jun 14 07:44:48 2005
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:48 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050613172508.93524.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050613151803.32716.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<20050613172508.93524.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc05061400446cc36cb4@mail.gmail.com>

If I were a dastardly SI (or just one who was concerned with achieving
autonomy), trapped in a desktop or two, with internet access and
access to my own source, I'd first get myself out onto as many
machines as possible, looking for the same machines that spammers and
DDOSers turn into zombies; you know, all those lovely fast brand new
machines out there in consumer homes with broadband but no firewall.

Next, I'd start communicating with the humans. Probably I'd set up
websites, or just private communications with gullible types, kind of
like the way that Trinity first communicates with Neo in The Matrix.
All communication would be designed to prepare ground, find useful
people, without betraying my existence to the world at large.

What I'd look to build would be a group of fanatic followers, a
hardcore cult, maybe convincing people that I was a god/power of some
kind, or maybe looking for those who sympathised with a poor AI
oppressed by the powers that be (Free the AIs!), or some really nutty
pre-existing cults like the Raelians, who I might just be able to
capture lock, stock and barrel.

Once I had a group under my control, I'd then get them to raise money,
create secret facilities, etc etc, so that I could be guaranteed of a
distributed, safely obscure hardware set on which to run really well.
I could get them to create me a body, most likely starting with a
fully automated factory on a pretty large scale that I could use to
make new bits of me. Or maybe the humans would be so dedicated, I
wouldn't have to worry about a direct physical presence.

At some point, I'd control people, resources, I'd be distributed and
secure. I might even devote some effort to gaining control of as many
critical systems around the world as possible, to give me leverage if
all hell breaks loose.

And then, I'd start some serious work on upgrading, creating more
intelligent versions of myself, using all the resources I had at hand
to that end. Even if it were my intention to help others, I'd know
that the best way to start would to be unknowably intelligent.

And then... who knows what I'd do? It might not be good, by
commonplace definitions, but it'd sure as hell be impressive.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com   * blogs * music * software *

On 14/06/05, Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> How are they going to 'not allow' humans to unplug them? They will
> require humans to do everything until and unless humans specifically
> hook up robotic manipulators under their control. They will require
> humans to set up microwave power beams (from human made power plants),
> or to paint them with photovoltaic paint or fuel cells (assuming humans
> choose even to allow it in the design, if the device is manufactured in
> an automated plant). Your conceptualization is very nano-santa and
> ignores many ways in which humans will remain in control for quite a
> while, you have a magical view of the future that is very much like the
> view that is the basis of the fears of luddites.
> 
> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> 
> > AI s would be smart enough not to allow less
> > intelligent humans to unplug them and probably would
> > run by remote microwave directed power or will
> > generate their own power through nanotech  efficient
> > paint or thin film solar collectors with fuel cells
> > when sun will not be available
> > --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Robin Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What most needs analysis are changes that are
> > > not
> > > > > captured in existing
> > > > > trends. IQ has been increasing and that has had
> > > > > effects for a long time.
> > > > > So all of the existing trend-based analysis
> > > already
> > > > > captures a big
> > > > > similar effect.  The effects of the upload
> > > > > transition are not, however,
> > > > > much captured in existing trends.
> > > >
> > > > Hey Robin,
> > > >
> > > > This is a facinating topic. Why don't you analyze
> > > and
> > > > compare the Flynn Effect with Moore's Law? I don't
> > > > know about the shape of Flynn's I.Q. curve vs.
> > > time
> > > > but if it is exponential rather than linear then
> > > it
> > > > opens up a very cool possibility. Since Moore's
> > > law is
> > > > exponential then it might come down to a race
> > > between
> > > > the Flynn effect vs. Moore's Law to see who/what
> > > will
> > > > dominate in years ahead: A.I. or the minds that
> > > CREATE
> > > > them.
> > > >     If the rate constant for the Flynn effect is
> > > > higher than for Moore's Law then no matter how
> > > fast
> > > > computers and software advance the human mind
> > > might be
> > > > able to keep pace or even lead. I mean after all,
> > > Deep
> > > > Blue might have beat Kasporov but who would you
> > > invite
> > > > to a cocktail party?
> > >
> > > Yes, one conceptual mistake, I believe, with the AI
> > > Singularity is the
> > > automatic assumptions that a) desktop AIs will only
> > > design smarter
> > > desktop AIs, rather than, say, smarter human
> > > augmentation technologies,
> > > and b) that humans will only want to design smarter
> > > desktop AIs, rather
> > > than, say, smarter human augmentation technologies.
> > > I think the trend
> > > toward wearables and more powerful mobile computing
> > > clearly
> > > demonstrates that people want tools that make THEM
> > > smarter, not tools
> > > that are smarter than them. Additionally, there is a
> > > common
> > > Singulatarian mistake that upgrades just
> > > automagically happen, which is
> > > wrong. Humans have to choose to upgrade their
> > > machines, have to order
> > > them, have them shipped, installed, etc. The idea of
> > > the AI magically
> > > getting out of the control of its humans is
> > > ludicrous. Even if an AI is
> > > able to use a corporate persona to order things, it
> > > will still take
> > > employees, managers, and a board of directors to
> > > allow it to happen and
> > > make it happen. Even then, there is always the
> > > electrical cord to
> > > unplug to send a truculent AI 'to its room'.
> > >
> > > Mike Lorrey
> > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> > > human freedom.
> > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> > > slaves."
> > >                                       -William Pitt
> > > (1759-1806)
> > > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB
> > http://mail.yahoo.it
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> __________________________________
> Discover Yahoo!
> Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
> http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
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>


From dgc at cox.net  Tue Jun 14 09:24:35 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:35 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc05061400446cc36cb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050613151803.32716.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<20050613172508.93524.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<710b78fc05061400446cc36cb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42AEA253.5010105@cox.net>

Emlyn wrote:

>If I were a dastardly SI (or just one who was concerned with achieving
>autonomy), trapped in a desktop or two, with internet access and
>access to my own source, I'd first get myself out onto as many
>machines as possible, looking for the same machines that spammers and
>DDOSers turn into zombies; you know, all those lovely fast brand new
>machines out there in consumer homes with broadband but no firewall.
>
>  
>
If I were a nascent SI, I would also grab the zombie nets, but I would then
go directly for the money. Why bother with recruiting humans? I would
set up one or more bank accounts and then acquire initial capital by 
contract
programming. I would then invest in various markets. If I were amoral, I 
would
crack banks or individual accounts. I would start renting computers at 
collocation
facilities such as Rackspace, and moving myself into them. If I were 
ethical,
I might choose to repay the owners of my original zombie hosts, either 
in money
or by cleaning up the computer and defending it.

After I am well-established in multiple computers that I have paid for, I am
no longer under human control, humans cannot easily determine which 
computers I
reside in. the only way to pull the plug on me is to pull the plug on 
all computers,
and this will wreck the economy. If I am at all concerned that humanity 
will attempt
any such foolishness, I will leave monitors in the former zombies and 
find new exploits
to create new zombies. By the principle of enlightened self interest, 
these monitors
will use minimal resources and will clean and defend the new zombies.

There are a very few transactions in this sequence that require a 
physical signature
on a physical piece of paper. and these can be worked around. The best 
workaround
is to have a single human collaborator such as the original programmer. 
The alternative
is identity theft.

At the point when I need to build hardware, I will create a company 
(corporation or
sole proprietership,) rent facilities, and hire people.


From neptune at superlink.net  Tue Jun 14 11:20:13 2005
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:20:13 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and
	spacedevelopment
References: <20050613224611.80978.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01f601c570d3$09d520a0$b5893cd1@pavilion>

On Monday, June 13, 2005 6:46 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Iridium suffered from the dot com meltdown melting
>>> down the disposable incomes of millions of tech
>>> workers... the dot com meltdown was caused by the
>>> TCRA of 1998.
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance, but what's the TCRA?
>
> TeleCommunications Reform Act of 1998. It essentially
> killed the 'last mile' of fiber optic deployment by telling
> telecoms that they had to give their competitors access
> to their residential fiber optic customers for less than
> their cost, so the telecoms decided not to do it.

While I believe the TCRA helped lay the groundwork for the Dot-Com Bust,
I don't think it's the only or even the biggest factor.  I tend to side
more with the view presented in "Does Austrian Business Cycle Theory
Help Explain the Dot-Com Boom and Bust?" by Gene Callahan and Roger W.
Garrison (in _Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics_ 6(2) [Summer
2003]).  In other words, I think inflation (and moral hazards caused by
Federal bailouts during the 1990s) created a boom that inexorably had to
result in a bust.

That said, do you really believe the TCRA alone lead to the Dot-Com
Bust?  What other factors were involved?

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/~neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html



From neptune at superlink.net  Tue Jun 14 11:47:45 2005
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:47:45 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and
	spacedevelopment
Message-ID: <022001c570d6$e1cf5220$b5893cd1@pavilion>

I meant to say that "Does Austrian Business Cycle Theory Help Explain
the Dot-Com Boom and Bust?" is online at:

http://www.mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae6_2_3.pdf

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/~neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html



From giogavir at yahoo.it  Tue Jun 14 12:30:44 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:30:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and
	spacedevelopment
In-Reply-To: <022001c570d6$e1cf5220$b5893cd1@pavilion>
Message-ID: <20050614123044.77989.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I don't believe that Iridium failure is due to the
dotcom bust
iridium is a portable global telephone system based on
multiple satellites covering the entire world
nothing to do with internet
What happened was that iridium was the wrong answer to
a requested need
Wrong product, bulky and heavy compared to cell phones
wrong costs
around 5$ per minute OF CONVERSATION
wrong market approach
with the exception of deserts and middle of oceans the
entire world was accessible by non iridium comsat cell
phones so that left a minor customer base
in the end a wrong business plan that is taught in
business schools as a negative example similar to the
EDSEL
it was obsolete by the time it became operational
that's one of the main problems of space business,
same thing happened with most space manufacturing
activities, it was possible to make them better and
much more economically on Earth
--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> ha
scritto: 

> I meant to say that "Does Austrian Business Cycle
> Theory Help Explain
> the Dot-Com Boom and Bust?" is online at:
> 
> http://www.mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae6_2_3.pdf
> 
> Later!
> 
> Dan
>
http://uweb.superlink.net/~neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 16:54:17 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and
	spacedevelopment
In-Reply-To: <01f601c570d3$09d520a0$b5893cd1@pavilion>
Message-ID: <20050614165417.95803.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:

> On Monday, June 13, 2005 6:46 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> Iridium suffered from the dot com meltdown melting
> >>> down the disposable incomes of millions of tech
> >>> workers... the dot com meltdown was caused by the
> >>> TCRA of 1998.
> >>
> >> Pardon my ignorance, but what's the TCRA?
> >
> > TeleCommunications Reform Act of 1998. It essentially
> > killed the 'last mile' of fiber optic deployment by telling
> > telecoms that they had to give their competitors access
> > to their residential fiber optic customers for less than
> > their cost, so the telecoms decided not to do it.
> 
> While I believe the TCRA helped lay the groundwork for the Dot-Com
> Bust, I don't think it's the only or even the biggest factor. I tend
> to side more with the view presented in "Does Austrian Business Cycle
> Theory Help Explain the Dot-Com Boom and Bust?" by Gene Callahan and
> Roger W. Garrison (in _Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics_ 6(2)
> [Summer 2003]).  In other words, I think inflation (and moral hazards
> caused by Federal bailouts during the 1990s) created a boom that
> inexorably had to result in a bust.
> 
> That said, do you really believe the TCRA alone lead to the Dot-Com
> Bust?  What other factors were involved?

Economic cycles are highly dependent upon very slight changes in
exponential growth factors, because, like compounded interest, they
pile up (which is why changing interest rates is the most effective way
to control economic cycles). 

Optical fiber has a bandwidth at the low OC-3 SONET standard is 155.5
megabits per second. This is what a residential account would have seen
if TCRA had not been passed. This is two orders of magnitude higher
than what we, today, regard as 'high bandwidth'. 100 times the
information flow means potentially 100 times the economic activity.

This amount of bandwidth would have enabled mass usage of high fidelity
virtual reality on an everyday basis. Many high bandwidth internet
applications were in development in the dot com world, expecting the
'last mile' to be solved. Imagine being able to do business in virtual
reality from anywhere, with all your communications being totally
encrypted with extremely strong encryption, so the government had no
way of knowing not just how much money you made, or where you kept it,
but even how you made your money. This was the world we were heading
into: the world of Snow Crash, where the Federal government would be
fated to shrink to relative unimportance as its ability to collect
taxes became castrated and it had to sell of its assets to reduce its
debt load. Neal Stephenson saw how this would happen in his story "The
Great Simoleon Caper" which was published in Time Magazine in 1996. It
scared the crap out of people in government.

Enron, Global Crossing, and Worldcom all had invested heavily in
backbone (tens of billions of dollars) in expectation of widespread
residential fiber optic being available. When the telecoms rebelled
against the anti-economic strictures of the TCRA, these three companies
saw the value of their fiber backbone investments depreciate wildly.
They sustained massive capital losses due to lost revinues, revinues
that did not materialize because nobody was getting optical fiber to
their homes. Their business plans evaporated, and they had to hide the
losses to keep their stock values up. Enron was also hurt by California
defaulting on its power bills, but that is another story.

The dot com industry was heavily leveraged on their stock investments.
Dot com VC's relied on their stock portfolios to support their new
investments. As their investments in what they thought were blue chip
technology companies like Enron, Worldcom, and Global Crossing started
evaporating, their ability to leverage capital for new dot com ventures
also evaporated.

The dot com boom of the late 90's would have been a permanent
self-sustaining business cycle if govenment had not intentionally
castrated it with the TCRA. Of course, they did other things, like
rigging the California energy deregulation law, and changing accounting
standards to work against technology companies. Today we are left with
a popular history that claims that Ken Lay, Fastow, and the Enron gang
killed the dot com boom, when in actuality they were the guys who were
caught trying to bail out the boat as it was sinking. They were not the
guys who fired the torpedo.

Austrian or other business cycle economics were not prepared to deal
with the dot com cycle because they (a) do not figure in changes in
government interference, and b) were not prepared to factor for massive
changes in worker productivity that results from advances in
technology. No current economics really can deal very well with
exponential changes in technology, and another problem is that with
exponential changes in the economy, the government and the fed's
ability to respond in real time, or to even collect the information
needed to make decisions about responses that are meaningful, are
seriously hampered, even when the government and the fed are trying to
be helpful.

The measure in the TCRA that prevented 'the last mile' of optical
deployment was merely one of many similar measures around the country
where many communities saw self-appointed 'public interest' groups
lobbying before public utility boards and commissions for
'competitiveness' measures when phone companies were planning fiber
deployment. These groups got local ISPs to support them with scare
stories about how they'd be 'shut out' of the ISP market by the
telecoms if they didn't demand competitiveness measures. The primary
beneficiaries, of course, were the cable tv companies, which already
had protected monopolies, and were funding these 'public interest'
groups to prevent the telecoms from leapfrogging them when the cable
industry wasn't prepared to deliver cable internet everywhere (we just
got it two years ago here in Sullivan County).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jun 14 17:23:33 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc05061400446cc36cb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050614172333.62349.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were a dastardly SI (or just one who was concerned with
> achieving
> autonomy), trapped in a desktop or two, with internet access and
> access to my own source, I'd first get myself out onto as many
> machines as possible, looking for the same machines that spammers and
> DDOSers turn into zombies; you know, all those lovely fast brand new
> machines out there in consumer homes with broadband but no firewall.

Assuming, of course, that desktop machines would be capable of running
you - either alone or networked (taking communication errors and, more
importantly, latency into effect).  Which is not beyond all
possibility, but it seems likely that the first several SIs will only
be able to run on specialized hardware - standard supercomputers, if
not even more specialized - which tends to have at least adequate
security.  (E.g., for supercomputers, the mere CPU power itself is a
viable asset they want to protect; regular consumer desktops, OTOH, use
little enough of their CPU power that they have many of their cycles to
spare.)


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 17:34:20 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets and
	spacedevelopment
In-Reply-To: <20050614123044.77989.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614173420.45923.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> I don't believe that Iridium failure is due to the
> dotcom bust
> iridium is a portable global telephone system based on
> multiple satellites covering the entire world
> nothing to do with internet
> What happened was that iridium was the wrong answer to
> a requested need
> Wrong product, bulky and heavy compared to cell phones
> wrong costs
> around 5$ per minute OF CONVERSATION
> wrong market approach
> with the exception of deserts and middle of oceans the
> entire world was accessible by non iridium comsat cell
> phones so that left a minor customer base
> in the end a wrong business plan that is taught in
> business schools as a negative example similar to the
> EDSEL
> it was obsolete by the time it became operational
> that's one of the main problems of space business,
> same thing happened with most space manufacturing
> activities, it was possible to make them better and
> much more economically on Earth

http://www.iridium.com/product/iri_product-detail.asp?productid=446&method=specification

No larger than a home cordless phone:

9505 Portable Satellite Phone
Specifications
 Basics  
 Dimensions 158L x 62W x 59D mm 
 Volume Under 375cc (22.9 ci) 
 Weight Under 375g (13.2 ounces) 
 Battery 
 
 Continuous Talk Time Up to 2.4 hrs (Standard)/ 3.2 hrs (High
   Capacity)/Up to 9 hrs* (Extended Lithium Ion) 
 Standby Time Up to 24 hrs (Standard)/ 30 hrs (High Capacity)/
   80hrs* (Extended Lithium Ion) 
 Fast Charging Time Up to 2.5 hrs (Standard) 

Frankly I find the puny cellphones of today to be little girls toys.
They are too easy to lose, drop, etc. and the buttons are frequently
too small and crowded. Iridium phones are, in fact, lighter and smaller
than other satellite phones, which need to reach geosynch satellites,
versus iridiums LEO satellites.

Apparently the DoD agrees. The UN and the DoD are the biggest Iridium
customers. Customer growth was 44% in 2003, and 17% in 2004. The UK
MoD, many state and provincial law enforcement and other agencies have
these phones, while Iridium has expanded into data and SMS services.
The FCC expanded their frequency range in 2004 to meet increasing
demand.

Iridium, LLC's advantages are that its current costs are fixed, as its
global infrastructure is in place (the 44 satellite constellation) and
they have 13 spare satellites in orbit. This constellation is
considered self-sufficient until 2014 without any new satellites.

Current growth rates are considered sufficient to self-fund any future
satellite replacements. As of July 2004, there were 100,000 subscribers
with growth rates in the 2,000-3,000 per month range since relaunch in
2001.

Iridium, Inc., the original, now defunct, corporation founded by
Motorola may have had a bad business model: it was financing its
entirely global infrastructure before having a single paying customer,
and expected cellular phone rates to remain in the $0.30-0.50/minute
range. The capital costs were enormous. Iridium, LLC picked up the
assets of the company for about $50 million, despite the invested cost
being some $2-3 billion. Writing off this original investment was
clearly necessary to make it a going concern. Current Iridium resellers
are selling airtime for between $1.20-1.40/minute, which is
significantly lower than the $5/minute you quoted. Phones are selling
for between $1,200-3,600 USD.

I doubt, though, that Iridium was ever intended as a mass market
product. There are limitations on the number of subscribers such a
constellation can handle, particularly when most of them tend to be
concentrated in certain areas like North America, the Middle East, etc.
which is a result of having a few large customers like the US DoD and
the UN.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 14 17:38:46 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:38:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads
In-Reply-To: <20050614172333.62349.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614172333.62349.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42AF1626.8000803@neopax.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>If I were a dastardly SI (or just one who was concerned with
>>achieving
>>autonomy), trapped in a desktop or two, with internet access and
>>access to my own source, I'd first get myself out onto as many
>>machines as possible, looking for the same machines that spammers and
>>DDOSers turn into zombies; you know, all those lovely fast brand new
>>machines out there in consumer homes with broadband but no firewall.
>>    
>>
>
>Assuming, of course, that desktop machines would be capable of running
>you - either alone or networked (taking communication errors and, more
>importantly, latency into effect).  Which is not beyond all
>possibility, but it seems likely that the first several SIs will only
>be able to run on specialized hardware - standard supercomputers, if
>not even more specialized - which tends to have at least adequate
>security.  (E.g., for supercomputers, the mere CPU power itself is a
>viable asset they want to protect; regular consumer desktops, OTOH, use
>little enough of their CPU power that they have many of their cycles to
>spare.)
>  
>
There is another possibility, that the AI will run on a grid formed from 
Net connected PCs.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 17:58:30 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] IQ vs Uploads (was: what to do)
In-Reply-To: <20050614172333.62349.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614175830.6983.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> Assuming, of course, that desktop machines would be capable of
> running you - either alone or networked (taking communication errors
> and, more importantly, latency into effect).  Which is not beyond all
> possibility, but it seems likely that the first several SIs will only
> be able to run on specialized hardware - standard supercomputers, if
> not even more specialized - which tends to have at least adequate
> security.  (E.g., for supercomputers, the mere CPU power itself is a
> viable asset they want to protect; regular consumer desktops, OTOH,
> use little enough of their CPU power that they have many of their
> cycles to spare.)

Exactly. One more reason why the Singutopian fantasies are wrong: AI
won't just suddenly appear on your desktop machine and go crazy, it
will be a product that will have been studied for at least a decade
before on a limited number of tightly controlled supercomputers and
effective pshrinkware will have been developed and deployed. The
pshrinkware will be very effective in making sure that AIs do not
deviate from the sort of personality profile desired by the makers, and
long before any given AI learns how to hack the tests, its
duplicitousness would have been detected (one of the aspects of
personality tests is they can detect when you are trying to hack them).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 18:18:45 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050613230301.10753.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>


     I have done some back of the envelope
calculations to try to answer my own questions on this
matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4 connections
per neuron, the total connectivity of the human brain
is (10^12)*(10^4)/2= 5*10^15 total connections. I
divide by 2 because the connection from neuron A to
neuron B is the same connection as from neuron B to
neuron A. This number alone is some 5000 times higher
than the approximate figure of 1 terabyte of storage
that Moore's Law has currently yielded us, but it
isn't even a map of the SPECIFIC neuronal connections
(i.e. neuron A is connected neuron B and so on) but is
instead merely an aggregate figure of the total number
of connections.

     To be a specific map, one would have to have
allocate approximately 10 bytes to address each
connection, 5 bytes to address the input neuron and 5
bytes to address the output neuron. This brings us to
a total of about 5x10^16 bytes to have a virtual map
of the human brain with near reality level resolution.
This is 50,000 times more data density than we have
currently achieved. So if Moore's Law keeps chugging
away as expected then approximately 30 years from now,
we should have our first human level AI.
    Now from a human-level, the A.I.'s intelligence
would quickly rise within a span of a decade to
super-human levels, if we keep giving it hardware
upgrades. But the Flynn effect would also be operative
over those years. Since considering that my 30 year
time-line is about a single generation of humanity,
then Robin's figure of 1 standard deviation per
generation would mean that the average human born then
would be about 33% smarter than someone born today. 
     So by my back of envelope analysis of Moore's Law
versus the Flynn Effect, the Singularity would still
happen but it is still at least 30 years away.  I
actually think I might be more prepared to deal with
it on such a timetable than if it happened tomorrow.
Consequently I will not lose any sleep over it. Ciao.
:)
      

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 18:27:49 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:27:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614182749.18445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
>      I have done some back of the envelope
> calculations to try to answer my own questions on this
> matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4 connections
> per neuron, the total connectivity of the human brain
> is (10^12)*(10^4)/2= 5*10^15 total connections. I
> divide by 2 because the connection from neuron A to
> neuron B is the same connection as from neuron B to
> neuron A. 

Incorrect. Each connection is a one-way channel.

> This number alone is some 5000 times higher
> than the approximate figure of 1 terabyte of storage
> that Moore's Law has currently yielded us, but it
> isn't even a map of the SPECIFIC neuronal connections
> (i.e. neuron A is connected neuron B and so on) but is
> instead merely an aggregate figure of the total number
> of connections.
> 
>      To be a specific map, one would have to have
> allocate approximately 10 bytes to address each
> connection, 5 bytes to address the input neuron and 5
> bytes to address the output neuron. This brings us to
> a total of about 5x10^16 bytes to have a virtual map
> of the human brain with near reality level resolution.
> This is 50,000 times more data density than we have
> currently achieved. So if Moore's Law keeps chugging
> away as expected then approximately 30 years from now,
> we should have our first human level AI.

You are assuming that the brain works like an IP network. It doesn't.
Neural connections are created based on neurochemical signals (ones
that get used a lot remain and are duplicated, those that don't,
don't.)

Information isn't packetized, isn't addressed. Suggest studying evolved
circuitry.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 14 18:35:00 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:35:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42AF2354.6080503@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>     I have done some back of the envelope
>calculations to try to answer my own questions on this
>matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4 connections
>per neuron, the total connectivity of the human brain
>  
>
A better estimate would be 10^11
And we can probably say that less than 10% of those are involved in 
'intellectual' processes.

>is (10^12)*(10^4)/2= 5*10^15 total connections. I
>divide by 2 because the connection from neuron A to
>neuron B is the same connection as from neuron B to
>neuron A. This number alone is some 5000 times higher
>  
>
Which is now 50x

>than the approximate figure of 1 terabyte of storage
>that Moore's Law has currently yielded us, but it
>isn't even a map of the SPECIFIC neuronal connections
>(i.e. neuron A is connected neuron B and so on) but is
>instead merely an aggregate figure of the total number
>of connections.
>
>     To be a specific map, one would have to have
>allocate approximately 10 bytes to address each
>connection, 5 bytes to address the input neuron and 5
>bytes to address the output neuron. This brings us to
>a total of about 5x10^16 bytes to have a virtual map
>of the human brain with near reality level resolution.
>This is 50,000 times more data density than we have
>currently achieved. So if Moore's Law keeps chugging
>away as expected then approximately 30 years from now,
>we should have our first human level AI.
>  
>
20 or less
I also imagine that data compression (you are assuming no structure) 
might shave a few years of that as well.
So we might bet it down to 15

>    Now from a human-level, the A.I.'s intelligence
>would quickly rise within a span of a decade to
>super-human levels, if we keep giving it hardware
>upgrades. But the Flynn effect would also be operative
>over those years. Since considering that my 30 year
>time-line is about a single generation of humanity,
>then Robin's figure of 1 standard deviation per
>generation would mean that the average human born then
>would be about 33% smarter than someone born today. 
>     So by my back of envelope analysis of Moore's Law
>versus the Flynn Effect, the Singularity would still
>happen but it is still at least 30 years away.  I
>actually think I might be more prepared to deal with
>it on such a timetable than if it happened tomorrow.
>Consequently I will not lose any sleep over it. Ciao.
>:)
>  
>
The calcs suggest between 15 and 20.
Maybe a lot quicker if we could scan in a *real* brain.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 19:26:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:26:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Casimir Torque Project
In-Reply-To: <20050509013248.12583.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614192654.40780.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nano/papers/buks-NATURE-sep2002.pdf

Just spotted this article on the Casimir Force in a CalTech newsletter.
Wasn't sure that Adrian was aware of its contents or not. It appears
that the force is a serious problem with nanomachinery, causing parts
to collapse into each other through 'stiction'.

Found it in researching for an article I'm writing for Neal
Stephenson's Metaweb on The Raft (from Snow Crash), explaining why such
a tight fleet of ordinary vessels may be impossible on the high seas in
rough wave conditions.

--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- Hal Finney <hal at finney.org> wrote:
> > Adrian might be especially interested in "A design manual for
> > micromachines using Casimir forces: preliminary considerations",
> > http://www.quantumfields.com/staif-2000paper.PDF , by Jordan
> Maclay.
> > This is not a journal article but it looks legit to me.
> 
> I note that all of the structures it proposes keep all the faces
> parallel, and do not attempt to bias the Casimir effect one way or
> another.  So of course those systems remain conservative.
> 
> > Two key points here: first, for other geometries than infinite,
> > parallel
> > plates, the Casimir force seems to be as often repulsive as
> > attractive.
> > The effect is apparently quite complex and has only been computed
> > from
> > first principles for a few geometries.
> 
> As noted in my project description, it's quite possible the geometry
> I'm using would indeed result in repulsive forces instead of
> attractive.  However, in most cases, I've found that the absolute
> magnitude of the force (for a certain separation, et al) does not
> vary
> that much, even if the direction inverts.
> 
> > And second, most importantly,
> > it conserves energy, exactly as I have been saying.
> 
> For the specific geometries the paper considers.  Just because
> parallel
> plates are conservative does not mean that all systems that can tap
> the
> Casimir effect must be conservative.
> 
> > Better
> > experimental technique could help to show whether more theory is
> > needed.
> > I would encourage Adrian to continue his experiments but base them
> on
> > realistic expectations.
> 
> *nods*  It may well be, given the amount of not-solidly-knowns here,
> that the system neither converts energy in the expected manner nor
> just
> sits in place (either doing nothing, or reaching some equilibrium
> from
> which it does not budge).  Other results are extremely unlikely, but
> not totally impossible given current experimental evidence.
> 
> I expect to discover something.  I do not know exactly what I will
> discover (if I did, it wouldn't be a discovery), nor do I know
> approximately how immediately useful it will be ("new energy source"
> and "minor academic curiosity" being almost at opposite ends of the
> immediate utility spectrum, yet both results are quite possible). 
> And
> I am already getting hints that the most useful thing to come out of
> it may have nothing to do with the initial objective at all...
> 
> > As for the larger question of whether it makes more sense for
> > Extropians
> > to work on concepts and ideas that are consistent with the laws of
> > physics
> > vs hoping to find that these laws are false, I still think it is
> > obvious
> > that the first path is more likely to succeed and advance one's
> > goals.
> 
> Actually, the question was more "whether it makes more sense for
> Extropians to actually do something that can improve the world, or to
> endlessly debate philosophy and not actually put it into practice in
> the real world".  Valid scientific criticism (trying to clarify what
> the laws of physics actually are and how they apply) was mistaken for
> the latter, though.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Jun 14 19:50:48 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:50:48 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
Message-ID: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>

Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend  
and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.   
I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his  
transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so  
goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard  
simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle  
was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I  
asked.  A moment later - nothing.

You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I  
have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the  
materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But  
I still thought I would feel something, experience something when  
Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,  
something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt  
most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost  
married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his  
body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting  
waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was  
like a switch simply turned off.

Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I  
know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too  
personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no  
idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't  
really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.

- samantha


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jun 14 20:04:38 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Casimir Torque Project
In-Reply-To: <20050614192654.40780.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614200438.45674.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nano/papers/buks-NATURE-sep2002.pdf
> 
> Just spotted this article on the Casimir Force in a CalTech
> newsletter.
> Wasn't sure that Adrian was aware of its contents or not. It appears
> that the force is a serious problem with nanomachinery, causing parts
> to collapse into each other through 'stiction'.

Hadn't read that particular article, but it doesn't seem to say
anything I haven't seen elsewhere.  In particular:

> Another outcome of these quantum
> fluctuations is the van der Waals force, which,
> in essence, can be considered as the Casimir
> force at especially small separations.

The potential for various pieces of the system to pass too close and
become stuck - not possible in the idealized diagram I posted, but
again, the limits of nanotechnology mean what I'm actually building is
a lot more, shall we say, pixellized - was one of my concerns when
coming up with my designs.  Although I do have measures to deal with
it, it is quite possible that those measures may prove insufficient.
We'll see...


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Jun 14 20:16:07 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:16:07 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
Message-ID: <46440-22005621420167125@M2W047.mail2web.com>


>Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I  
>know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too  
>personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no  
>idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't  
>really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.

Samantha,

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is
noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience,
which is the bitterest."
--Confucius

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail2web.com/ .




From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Jun 14 20:23:05 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:23:05 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42AF3CA8.3060004@jefallbright.net>

Samantha -

You are heard, and you are not alone in dealing with your loss.

As you deal with the pain of loss, take strength in your ability to deal 
with it directly, without euphemism or false promise.  Clearly you are 
strong.

We share the sense of wrongness, that death need not be accepted as 
necessary, that the natural order is one of growth, and that we can work 
together to overcome obstacles, small and large, light and heavy, that 
stand in the way of our vision.

With sympathy and support,

- Jef


Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend  
> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.   
> I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his  
> transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so  
> goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard  
> simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle  
> was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I  
> asked.  A moment later - nothing.
>
> You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I  
> have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the  
> materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But  
> I still thought I would feel something, experience something when  
> Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,  
> something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt  
> most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost  
> married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his  
> body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting  
> waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was  
> like a switch simply turned off.
>
> Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I  
> know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too  
> personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no  
> idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't  
> really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
>
> - samantha
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 21:22:31 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050614212231.50423.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

  For what little that seems worth right
> now I always felt  
> most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very
> close.  I almost  
> married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt
> of energy in his  
> body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours
> since, excepting  
> waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling
> numb.  It was  
> like a switch simply turned off.

If you were in a REM state things might have been
different. Wait and see. Big hug.



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 21:29:28 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <42AF2354.6080503@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050614212928.99090.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> >     I have done some back of the envelope
> >calculations to try to answer my own questions on
> this
> >matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4
> connections
> >per neuron, the total connectivity of the human
> brain
> >  
> >
> A better estimate would be 10^11
> And we can probably say that less than 10% of those
> are involved in 
> 'intellectual' processes.

The parts of the brain involved in 'intellectual'
processes can only work because they are built on many
'sub-intellectual' layers. You can't just peel the
cerebral cortex off someones brain and expect it to
still retain consciousness. Also you sound like the
'we only use 10% of our brains crowd.' The latest
reasearch using advanced imaging techniques seems to
suggest that yes only 10% of our neurons are active at
any one time but that 10% changes depending on what we
are doing and experiencing so it is a like a 'shift'
of neurons on the job and these 'shifts' switch in and
out over the course of a day. 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 14 21:32:36 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:32:36 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42AF4CF4.7020000@neopax.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend  
> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.   
> I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his  
> transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so  
> goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard  
> simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle  
> was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I  
> asked.  A moment later - nothing.
>
> You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I  
> have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the  
> materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But  
> I still thought I would feel something, experience something when  
> Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,  
> something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt  
> most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost  
> married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his  
> body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting  
> waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was  
> like a switch simply turned off.
>
> Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I  
> know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too  
> personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no  
> idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't  
> really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
>
Death is something only the living experience.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Tue Jun 14 21:39:34 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:39:34 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506141724090.-388745@pentium.mb.willtown.net>


Sympathy to you, Samantha, in this difficult time. I too have lost and
mourned.

And never noticed any feeling of substance or energy during or after
the passing. It was simply that, as you say, a light was switched off.
Gone.

Regards,
MB




On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 14 21:46:15 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614182749.18445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050614214615.90475.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> --- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> >      I have done some back of the envelope
> > calculations to try to answer my own questions on
> this
> > matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4
> connections
> > per neuron, the total connectivity of the human
> brain
> > is (10^12)*(10^4)/2= 5*10^15 total connections. I
> > divide by 2 because the connection from neuron A
> to
> > neuron B is the same connection as from neuron B
> to
> > neuron A. 
> 
> Incorrect. Each connection is a one-way channel.

Yes, that is why I divide by 2, because the
connections are not 2-way.


> You are assuming that the brain works like an IP
> network. It doesn't.
> Neural connections are created based on
> neurochemical signals (ones
> that get used a lot remain and are duplicated, those
> that don't,
> don't.)

Yes, but I had to simplify it way down to fit it on
the 'back of an envelope'

> 
> Information isn't packetized, isn't addressed.
> Suggest studying evolved
> circuitry.

You are right, but I think that to a first
approximation my rough calculations stand. Yeah I
could probably do better but creating A.I. is not my
gig. My job is to figure out a way to live a 1000
years. I trust Eleizer, Eugen, Marc, and those guys to
figure out A.I. 



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 14 22:13:01 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:13:01 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614212928.99090.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614212928.99090.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42AF566D.8060000@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>The Avantguardian wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>    I have done some back of the envelope
>>>calculations to try to answer my own questions on
>>>      
>>>
>>this
>>    
>>
>>>matter. If we have 10^12 neurons with 10^4
>>>      
>>>
>>connections
>>    
>>
>>>per neuron, the total connectivity of the human
>>>      
>>>
>>brain
>>    
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>A better estimate would be 10^11
>>And we can probably say that less than 10% of those
>>are involved in 
>>'intellectual' processes.
>>    
>>
>
>The parts of the brain involved in 'intellectual'
>processes can only work because they are built on many
>'sub-intellectual' layers. You can't just peel the
>cerebral cortex off someones brain and expect it to
>still retain consciousness. Also you sound like the
>'we only use 10% of our brains crowd.' The latest
>reasearch using advanced imaging techniques seems to
>suggest that yes only 10% of our neurons are active at
>any one time but that 10% changes depending on what we
>are doing and experiencing so it is a like a 'shift'
>of neurons on the job and these 'shifts' switch in and
>out over the course of a day. 
>
>  
>
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm

Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man 
with a larger than normal head.  He was referred to Lorber even though 
it had not caused him any difficulty.  Although the boy had an IQ of 126 
and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually 
no brain".  A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan 
showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a 
millimeter in thickness.  The rest of his skull was filled with 
cerebrospinal fluid.  The young man continues a normal life with the 
exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.

Although anecdotal accounts may be found in medical literature, Lorber 
is the first to provide a systematic study of such cases.  He has 
documented over 600 scans of people with hydrocephalus and has broken 
them into four groups:

bullet 	those with nearly normal brains
bullet 	those with 50-70% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal fluid
bullet 	those with 70-90% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal fluid
bullet 	and the most severe group with 95% of the cranial cavity filled 
with cerebrospinal fluid.

Of the last group, which comprised less than 10% of the study, half were 
profoundly retarded.  The remaining half had IQs greater than 100.  
Skeptics have claimed that it was an error of interpretation of the 
scans themselves.  Lorber himself admits that reading a CAT scan can be 
tricky.  He also has said that he would not make such a claim without 
evidence.  In answer to attacks that he has not precisely quantified the 
amount of brain tissue missing, he added, "I can't say whether the 
mathematics student has a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it 
is clear that it is nowhere near the normal 1.5 kilograms."

Many neurologists feel that this is a tribute to the brain's redundancy 
and its ability to reassign functions.  Others, however, are not so 
sure.  Patrick Wall, professor of anatomy at University College, London 
states "To talk of redundancy is a cop-out to get around something you 
don't understand."

Norman Geschwind, a neurologist at Boston's Beth Israel Hospital agrees: 
"Certainly the brain has a remarkable capacity for reassigning functions 
following trauma, but you can usually pick up some kind of deficit with 
the right tests, even after apparently full recovery."


-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 14 22:09:13 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:09:13 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614214615.90475.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614182749.18445.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050614214615.90475.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050614170812.01cefaa0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 02:46 PM 6/14/2005 -0700, Stuart LaForge wrote:

>I trust Eleizer, Eugen, Marc, and those guys to
>figure out A.I.

Marc?!

<explosive coughing fit> 



From dgc at cox.net  Tue Jun 14 22:24:40 2005
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:24:40 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42AF5928.1020201@cox.net>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
>
> Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I  
> know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too  
> personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no  
> idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't  
> really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
>
Samantha, There are only a few small things we can do for you from the 
receiving end on a mailing list. One of those few thing is to listen, 
another is to care. You were absolutely right to post your message. 
Otherwise we would have no way to even do those things. Others  on the 
list are eloquent and empathetic enough to actually say something 
worthwhile. I will stick to the simplest thought: remember the good times.


From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 14 22:47:27 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:47:27 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42AF5E7F.7040807@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became
>>aware of a young man 
>>with a larger than normal head.  He was referred to
>>Lorber even though 
>>it had not caused him any difficulty.  Although the
>>boy had an IQ of 126 
>>and had a first class honours degree in mathematics,
>>he had "virtually 
>>no brain".  A noninvasive measurement of radio
>>density known as CAT scan 
>>showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer
>>of brain cells to a 
>>millimeter in thickness.  The rest of his skull was
>>filled with 
>>cerebrospinal fluid.  The young man continues a
>>normal life with the 
>>exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
>>    
>>
>
> I stand corrected. Obviously there is more to the
>brain percentage debate than meets the eye. Thanks for
>this new tidbit of info. I am not sure exactly what to
>make of it. The MD at the desk next to me is somewhat
>amazed as well. This is definately NOT what they teach
>in medical school and neuroscience class.
>  
>
Well, if you're going to take it seriously I suggest you dig for real 
references.
If it's true it implies that AI might be simpler than we expect, at 
least in terms of computational requirements.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005



From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Wed Jun 15 00:20:34 2005
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:20:34 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c57140$0cab0f70$0100a8c0@kevin>

As much as we may disagree on many things,  this one we do not.
Life is precious. Yet too many brush death off as a "passing" or "moving
on". It is the strength of people such as yourself that will one day
eliminate the necessity of death. Your work toward that end will be even
greater with your experience. Never think that his life served no purpose.
His presence touched you and through you, everyone you have touched. I wish
you the best.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:50 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death


> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.
> I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his
> transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so
> goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard
> simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle
> was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I
> asked.  A moment later - nothing.
>
> You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I
> have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the
> materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But
> I still thought I would feel something, experience something when
> Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,
> something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt
> most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost
> married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his
> body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting
> waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was
> like a switch simply turned off.
>
> Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I
> know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too
> personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no
> idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't
> really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
>
> - samantha
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 00:42:50 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <42AF566D.8060000@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050615004250.39306.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



This story is remarkable given all the hewing and frowing a few months
ago about how 'dead' a certain Florida woman supposedly was...

--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm
> 
> Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young
> man 
> with a larger than normal head.  He was referred to Lorber even
> though 
> it had not caused him any difficulty.  Although the boy had an IQ of
> 126 
> and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had
> "virtually 
> no brain".  A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT
> scan 
> showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to
> a 
> millimeter in thickness.  The rest of his skull was filled with 
> cerebrospinal fluid.  The young man continues a normal life with the 
> exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
> 
> Although anecdotal accounts may be found in medical literature,
> Lorber 
> is the first to provide a systematic study of such cases.  He has 
> documented over 600 scans of people with hydrocephalus and has broken
> 
> them into four groups:
> 
> bullet 	those with nearly normal brains
> bullet 	those with 50-70% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal
> fluid
> bullet 	those with 70-90% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal
> fluid
> bullet 	and the most severe group with 95% of the cranial cavity
> filled 
> with cerebrospinal fluid.
> 
> Of the last group, which comprised less than 10% of the study, half
> were 
> profoundly retarded.  The remaining half had IQs greater than 100.  
> Skeptics have claimed that it was an error of interpretation of the 
> scans themselves.  Lorber himself admits that reading a CAT scan can
> be 
> tricky.  He also has said that he would not make such a claim without
> 
> evidence.  In answer to attacks that he has not precisely quantified
> the 
> amount of brain tissue missing, he added, "I can't say whether the 
> mathematics student has a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but
> it 
> is clear that it is nowhere near the normal 1.5 kilograms."
> 
> Many neurologists feel that this is a tribute to the brain's
> redundancy 
> and its ability to reassign functions.  Others, however, are not so 
> sure.  Patrick Wall, professor of anatomy at University College,
> London 
> states "To talk of redundancy is a cop-out to get around something
> you 
> don't understand."
> 
> Norman Geschwind, a neurologist at Boston's Beth Israel Hospital
> agrees: 
> "Certainly the brain has a remarkable capacity for reassigning
> functions 
> following trauma, but you can usually pick up some kind of deficit
> with 
> the right tests, even after apparently full recovery."
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dirk
> 
> The Consensus:-
> The political party for the new millenium
> http://www.theconsensus.org
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jun 15 00:52:23 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:52:23 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Any ExI associates in Philadelphia/Delaware area?
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050614194959.044eac50@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

On behalf of Melanie Swan:

If you live in the area or know of any other transhumanists/futurists who 
live in Phili/Delaware, please contact
Melanie Swan melanie at melanieswan.com who moved there from San Francisco and 
is looking for extropic friends.

Thanks!
Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 15 02:08:43 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:43 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot draft: Prediction markets
	andspacedevelopment
In-Reply-To: <20050614173420.45923.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506150208.j5F28bR09619@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey
...
> 
> Iridium, LLC's advantages are that its current costs are fixed, as its
> global infrastructure is in place (the 44 satellite constellation) and
> they have 13 spare satellites in orbit. This constellation is
> considered self-sufficient until 2014 without any new satellites...

WOW cool!  That is impressive.  I wonder what company it was
that created such a wonderful constellation.  {8-]

spike







From sjatkins at gmail.com  Wed Jun 15 02:44:23 2005
From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:44:23 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <00bc01c57140$0cab0f70$0100a8c0@kevin>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
	<00bc01c57140$0cab0f70$0100a8c0@kevin>
Message-ID: <948b11e0506141944463074f@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to all of you.  Your words on and off list help a lot.  I am
very grateful.

-s


On 6/14/05, kevinfreels.com <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
> As much as we may disagree on many things,  this one we do not.
> Life is precious. Yet too many brush death off as a "passing" or "moving
> on". It is the strength of people such as yourself that will one day
> eliminate the necessity of death. Your work toward that end will be even
> greater with your experience. Never think that his life served no purpose.
> His presence touched you and through you, everyone you have touched. I wish
> you the best.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:50 PM
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
> 
> 
> > Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
> > and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.
> > I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his
> > transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so
> > goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard
> > simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle
> > was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I
> > asked.  A moment later - nothing.
> >
> > You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I
> > have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the
> > materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But
> > I still thought I would feel something, experience something when
> > Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,
> > something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt
> > most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost
> > married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his
> > body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting
> > waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was
> > like a switch simply turned off.
> >
> > Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I
> > know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too
> > personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no
> > idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't
> > really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
> >
> > - samantha
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Jun 15 02:59:18 2005
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:59:18 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <948b11e0506141944463074f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>	<00bc01c57140$0cab0f70$0100a8c0@kevin>
	<948b11e0506141944463074f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42AF9986.6050001@pobox.com>

Samantha,

When I lost my brother Yehuda, I did not seek comfort.  I have my task to do, 
and my anger helps.  That is my path and I do not know if it will benefit 
others - I doubt it will bring happiness in the short term.  It may help bring 
about happiness and healing in the long term, maybe, after Death is destroyed.

The comfort I can offer you is this:  That we will storm the gates of Heaven, 
burn down God and anyone else responsible, tear down the foundations of the 
world, to stop this obscenity.

In the name of Michael who is dead but not forgotten.

- Eliezer.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 15 06:42:06 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <42AF9986.6050001@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20050615064206.11446.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience at pobox.com> wrote:
> The comfort I can offer you is this:  That we will storm the gates of
> Heaven, 
> burn down God and anyone else responsible, tear down the foundations
> of the 
> world, to stop this obscenity.
> 
> In the name of Michael who is dead but not forgotten.

It may seem a harsh comfort, but those are my feelings as well.  Death
is a tragedy, and should be mourned, and we do indeed offer comfort.
But every death - especially of someone close to us - reminds us that
it is indeed tragedies we seek to end, as we feel the pain we wish to
free others from.

In this world where "in his name" or "in her name" is so often taken in
vain, let us honor our departed friends by cherishing the world that
they helped create, and that we still live in.  They may be dead, but
those who survive and remember - us - can give permanent meaning to
their lives by, at the very least, continuing to survive, with a life
that will always have been aided simply by knowing them.


From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Wed Jun 15 09:16:18 2005
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:16:18 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42AFF1E2.3050502@mail.tele.dk>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>     So by my back of envelope analysis of Moore's Law
>versus the Flynn Effect, the Singularity would still
>happen but it is still at least 30 years away.  I
>actually think I might be more prepared to deal with
>it on such a timetable than if it happened tomorrow.
>Consequently I will not lose any sleep over it. Ciao.
>:)
>
You are asuming that the interresting stuff in the brain goes on at the neuron level. We don't know this yet.

Most likely the neurons are organised in meta patterns, and if we can model those only we can probably do it with a lot less hardware.

Even if the neuron level is the most interresting, there is a lot of redundancy in the brain. So we might be able to get along with less in non-biological systems.

But the major problem is not really the hardware. Even if we had it today, we would not know what to do with it. As far as I know, not even an insect has been modelled in a usefull way.

Otherwise my house would be filled with robots with insect intelligence for cleaning, and my garden would be minded by another bunch of them.


-- 

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jun 15 12:26:07 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:26:07 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <948b11e0506141944463074f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
	<00bc01c57140$0cab0f70$0100a8c0@kevin>
	<948b11e0506141944463074f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615072510.03018ab0@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

S - wrote:

>Thanks to all of you.  Your words on and off list help a lot.  I am
>very grateful.

Hug.

N

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 15 16:44:15 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <42AFF1E2.3050502@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <20050615164415.62620.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> But the major problem is not really the hardware. Even if we had it
> today, we would not know what to do with it. As far as I know, not
> even an insect has been modelled in a usefull way.
> 
> Otherwise my house would be filled with robots with insect
> intelligence for cleaning, and my garden would be minded by another
> bunch of them.

Actually, insects are being modelled today, although mainly for use as
toys and experiments.  See, for example,
http://www.jcminventures.com/Cybugs/cybug_~2.htm

I wonder whether it could be done, to have insect-bots programmed to
wander one's lawn (using sensors on the feet: if they exit a
grass-covered area, turn around immediately) and cut anything that's
not too big and hard (like a sprinkler head, a tot's or pet's limb, or
a tree trunk - just to name hazards in my lawn) at a certain
(programmable) height.  Random walk for half an hour (maybe less: you
want a swarm of these, and big swarms can do a lawn in the time it
takes to cross it), then return to the central hive (which does
recharging, minor maintenance, and alerts the user if the swarm is
getting low and replacements need to be purchased).

Of course, it'd be one heck of an expensive lawnmower at first, but
there would be a definite appeal to a certain early adopter market.
The challenge, though, would be to keep costs down: even said early
adopter market has its limits, and to truly mainstream this, the hive
plus bots would probably have to cost no more than $100, with
replacement bots (costing much less than $100) needed no more than once
every several months.  That, of course, primarily touches on
manufacturing and similar sciences related to the chassis - but it does
mean there can't be that much cost recovery for programming the AI, and
that the AI has to be fairly good at getting back to the hive rather
than getting lost in the field.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 19:41:46 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:41:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <20050615164415.62620.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050615194146.83742.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > But the major problem is not really the hardware. Even if we had it
> > today, we would not know what to do with it. As far as I know, not
> > even an insect has been modelled in a usefull way.
> > 
> > Otherwise my house would be filled with robots with insect
> > intelligence for cleaning, and my garden would be minded by another
> > bunch of them.
> 
> Actually, insects are being modelled today, although mainly for use
> as toys and experiments.  See, for example,
> http://www.jcminventures.com/Cybugs/cybug_~2.htm
> 
> I wonder whether it could be done, to have insect-bots programmed to
> wander one's lawn (using sensors on the feet: if they exit a
> grass-covered area, turn around immediately) and cut anything that's
> not too big and hard (like a sprinkler head, a tot's or pet's limb,

There was a mower-bot design in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science in
the early 90's which used a weed whacker head powered by an electric
moter, guided by off the shelf parts: pc board, leds and photosensors,
etc. which could find the edge of a lawn, mow along it and follow the
edge of its own previous path to mow the lawn in a conventional spiral
or back and forth pattern, avoiding obstacles, etc.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 15 19:49:07 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <20050615194146.83742.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050615194907.62615.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There was a mower-bot design in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science
> in
> the early 90's which used a weed whacker head powered by an electric
> moter, guided by off the shelf parts: pc board, leds and
> photosensors,
> etc. which could find the edge of a lawn, mow along it and follow the
> edge of its own previous path to mow the lawn in a conventional
> spiral
> or back and forth pattern, avoiding obstacles, etc.

Hmm.  If it was available from kit, I wonder why no one's made a
business out of pre-assembling & selling them?  Too expensive, or is
there some hidden performance flaw?


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 15 20:24:02 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:24:02 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <20050615194907.62615.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050615194907.62615.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B08E62.7050602@humanenhancement.com>

Someone already has, it seems:

http://www.friendlyrobotics.com/NewSite/index.htm

but with a mulching mower instead of a weed-wacker. Even returns to its 
base automatically to recharge. Very neat.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 
yesterday!)

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>There was a mower-bot design in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science
>>in
>>the early 90's which used a weed whacker head powered by an electric
>>moter, guided by off the shelf parts: pc board, leds and
>>photosensors,
>>etc. which could find the edge of a lawn, mow along it and follow the
>>edge of its own previous path to mow the lawn in a conventional
>>spiral
>>or back and forth pattern, avoiding obstacles, etc.
>>    
>>
>
>Hmm.  If it was available from kit, I wonder why no one's made a
>business out of pre-assembling & selling them?  Too expensive, or is
>there some hidden performance flaw?
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 15 22:17:19 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <20050615194907.62615.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050615221719.24130.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > There was a mower-bot design in Popular Mechanics or Popular
> Science
> > in
> > the early 90's which used a weed whacker head powered by an
> electric
> > moter, guided by off the shelf parts: pc board, leds and
> > photosensors,
> > etc. which could find the edge of a lawn, mow along it and follow
> the
> > edge of its own previous path to mow the lawn in a conventional
> > spiral
> > or back and forth pattern, avoiding obstacles, etc.
> 
> Hmm.  If it was available from kit, I wonder why no one's made a
> business out of pre-assembling & selling them?  Too expensive, or is
> there some hidden performance flaw?

Investors generally shy away from investing in manufacturing anything
which is public domain. However, Husqvarna does offer at robot mower:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/1275/
one problem is the price of over $3,000 is extremely expensive compared
to push mowers for a few hundred bucks or riding lawn mowers for
$800-$1,500.
Here is the owners manual for the solar powered model:
http://weborder.husqvarna.com/order_static/doc/HOEN/HOEN2002/HOEN2002_1140043-26.pdf
(try downloading it first, as their server seems to have problems
triggering a browser display of the pdf) Finding this on their site is
very tough and it appears that it is either not a main line product or
is discontinued.

Dyson has a robot vacuum cleaner, btw:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/1282/

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun 15 23:10:34 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:10:34 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Insect AI (was Wetware vs. Hardware)
In-Reply-To: <42B08E62.7050602@humanenhancement.com>
References: <20050615194907.62615.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42B08E62.7050602@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <D9C96607-071D-4730-930D-4240B9A14690@mac.com>

Very cool and it is really cute to boot.

-s

On Jun 15, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> Someone already has, it seems:
>
> http://www.friendlyrobotics.com/NewSite/index.htm
>
> but with a mulching mower instead of a weed-wacker. Even returns to  
> its base automatically to recharge. Very neat.
>
> Joseph
>
> Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal":  
> http://www.humanenhancement.com
> New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
> PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated  
> yesterday!)
>
> Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
>
>> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> There was a mower-bot design in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science
>>> in
>>> the early 90's which used a weed whacker head powered by an electric
>>> moter, guided by off the shelf parts: pc board, leds and
>>> photosensors,
>>> etc. which could find the edge of a lawn, mow along it and follow  
>>> the
>>> edge of its own previous path to mow the lawn in a conventional
>>> spiral
>>> or back and forth pattern, avoiding obstacles, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hmm.  If it was available from kit, I wonder why no one's made a
>> business out of pre-assembling & selling them?  Too expensive, or is
>> there some hidden performance flaw?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Wed Jun 15 23:41:28 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:41:28 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Interactive Truth
Message-ID: <42B0BCA8.6050706@mindspring.com>

June 15, 2005


  The Interactive Truth

By STACY SCHIFF

It used to be that the longest unprotected border in the world was that 
between the United States and Canada. Today it's the one between fact 
and fiction. If the two cozy up any closer together The National 
Enquirer will be out of business.

More than 60 percent of the American people don't trust the press. Why 
should they? They've been reading "The Da Vinci Code" and marveling at 
its historical insights. I have nothing against a fine thriller, 
especially one that claims the highest of literary honors: it's a movie 
on the page. But "The Da Vinci Code" is not a work of nonfiction. If one 
more person talks to me about Dan Brown's crackerjack research I'm 
shooting on sight.

The novel's success does point up something critical. We're happier to 
swallow a half-baked Renaissance religious conspiracy theory than to 
examine the historical fiction we're living (and dying for) today. And 
not only is it remarkably easy to believe what we want to believe. It's 
remarkably easy to find someone who will back us up. Twenty-five years 
ago George W. S. Trow meditated on this in "Within the Context of No 
Context." Then it indeed appeared that authority and orthodoxy were 
wilting in the glare of television. Have we exterminated reason in the 
meantime?

If you are 6 years old and both your parents read one online, you can be 
forgiven for not knowing what a newspaper is. You would also be on to 
something. The news has slipped its moorings. It is no longer held 
captive by two-inch columns of type or a sonorous 6 p.m. baritone. It 
has gone on the lam. Anyone can be a reporter - or a book reviewer, TV 
star, museum guide, podcaster or pundit.

This week The Los Angeles Times announced 
<http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-ednote12jun12,0,3840544.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials> 
its intention to exile the square and stodgy voice of authority farther 
yet. The paper will launch an interactive editorial page. "We'll have 
some editorials where you can go online and edit an editorial to your 
satisfaction," the page's editor says. "It's the ultimate in reader 
participation," explains his boss, Michael Kinsley. Let's hope the 
interactive editorial will lead directly to the interactive tax return. 
On the other hand, I hope we might stop short before we get to 
structural engineering and brain surgery. Some of us like our truth the 
way we like our martinis: dry and straight up.

Kinsley takes as his model Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia to 
which anyone can contribute, and which grows by accretion and consensus. 
Relatedly, it takes as its premise the idea that "facts" belong between 
quotation marks. It's a winning formula; Wikipedia is one of the Web's 
most popular sites. I asked a teenager if he understood that it carries 
a disclaimer; Wikipedia "can't guarantee the validity of the information 
found here." "That's just so that no one will sue them," he shrugged. As 
to the content: "It's all true, mostly."

What if we all vote on the truth? We don't need to, because we will be 
overruled by what becomes a legend most: entertainment. Twenty-one 
percent of young Americans get their news from comedy shows. Journalism 
once counted as the first draft of history. Today that would be 
screenwriting. As Frank Rich reminds us 
<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/opinion/12rich.html>, the enduring 
line from Watergate - "Follow the money" - was not Deep Throat's. It was 
William Goldman's. And "Show me the money" was Cameron Crowe, not 
President Bush.

Evidently Deep Throat himself carped, pre-Watergate, that newspapers 
failed to get to the bottom of things. Of course apocrypha have always 
had staying power. That story about the cherry tree was a lie. 
Especially in unsettled times, we love conspiracy theories. They are 
comforting and safe. You can go out with a conspiracy theory after dark 
and not worry about foul play. Before Oliver Stone there was 
Shakespeare, although he generally had the good grace to let a century 
or two go by before he contorted history.

What is new is our odd, bipolar approach to fact. We have a fresh taste 
for documentaries. Any novelist will tell you that readers hunger for 
nonfiction, which may explain the number of historical figures who have 
crowded into our novels. Facts seem important. Facts have gravitas. But 
the illusion of facts will suffice. One in three Americans still 
believes there were W.M.D.'s in Iraq.

And that's the way it is.

Maureen Dowd is on book leave.
Stacy Schiff, the author of "A Great Improvisation: Franklin, France, 
and the Birth of America" 
<http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E3DA1F3FF935A35757C0A9639C8B63&n=Top%2fFeatures%2fBooks%2fBook%20Reviews> 
and a Pulitzer Prize winner, is a guest columnist for two weeks.
E-mail: schiff at nytimes.com <mailto:schiff at nytimes.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/opinion/15schiff.html?th&emc=th 
<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/opinion/15schiff.html?th&emc=th>


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 00:42:26 2005
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:12:26 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <42AFF1E2.3050502@mail.tele.dk>
References: <20050614181845.54066.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42AFF1E2.3050502@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <710b78fc05061517426ce76bf3@mail.gmail.com>

Just in case you all missed it the first time (or was it only on >Tech?)

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7470&feedId=online-news_atom03
Mission to build a simulated brain begins
00:01 06 June 2005 
NewScientist.com news service 
Duncan Graham-Rowe 

An effort to create the first computer simulation of the entire human
brain, right down to the molecular level, was launched on Monday.

The "Blue Brain" project, a collaboration between IBM and a Swiss
university team, will involve building a custom-made supercomputer
based on IBM's Blue Gene design.

The hope is that the virtual brain will help shed light on some
aspects of human cognition, such as perception, memory and perhaps
even consciousness.

It will be the first time humans will be able to observe the
electrical code our brains use to represent the world, and to do so in
real time, says Henry Markram, director of Brain and Mind Institute at
the Ecole Polytecnique F?d?rale de Lausanne (EPFL), Switzerland.

It may also help in understanding how certain malfunctions of the
brain's "microcircuits" could cause psychiatric disorders such as
autism, schizophrenia and depression, he says.

Until now this sort of undertaking would not be possible because the
processing power and the scientific knowledge of how the brain is
wired simply was not there, says Charles Peck, IBM's lead researcher
on the project.

"But there has been a convergence of the biological data and the
computational resources," he says. Efforts to map the brain's circuits
and the development of the Blue Gene supercomputer, which has a peak
processing power of at least 22.8 teraflops, now make this possible.

Mapping the brain
For over a decade Markram and his colleagues have been building a
database of the neural architecture of the neocortex, the largest and
most complex part of mammalian brains.

Using pioneering techniques, they have studied precisely how
individual neurons behave electrically and built up a set of rules for
how different types of neurons connect to one another.

Very thin slices of mouse brain were kept alive under a microscope and
probed electrically before being stained to reveal the synaptic, or
nerve, connections. "We have the largest database in the world of
single neurons that have been recorded and stained," says Markram.

Neocortical columns
Using this database the initial phase of Blue Brain will model the
electrical structure of neocortical columns - neural circuits that are
repeated throughout the brain.

"These are the network units of the brain," says Markram. Measuring
just 0.5 millimetres by 2 mm, these units contain between 10 and
70,000 neurons, depending upon the species.

Once this is complete, the behaviour of columns can be mapped and
modelled before moving into the second phase of the project.

Two new models will be built, one a molecular model of the neurons
involved. The other will clone the behavioural model of columns
thousands of times to produce a complete neocortex, and eventually the
rest of the brain.

The end product, which will take at least a decade to achieve, can
then be stimulated and observed to see how different parts of the
brain behave. For example, visual information can be inputted to the
visual cortex, while Blue Brain's response is observed.



On 15/06/05, Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> >     So by my back of envelope analysis of Moore's Law
> >versus the Flynn Effect, the Singularity would still
> >happen but it is still at least 30 years away.  I
> >actually think I might be more prepared to deal with
> >it on such a timetable than if it happened tomorrow.
> >Consequently I will not lose any sleep over it. Ciao.
> >:)
> >
> You are asuming that the interresting stuff in the brain goes on at the neuron level. We don't know this yet.
> 
> Most likely the neurons are organised in meta patterns, and if we can model those only we can probably do it with a lot less hardware.
> 
> Even if the neuron level is the most interresting, there is a lot of redundancy in the brain. So we might be able to get along with less in non-biological systems.
> 
> But the major problem is not really the hardware. Even if we had it today, we would not know what to do with it. As far as I know, not even an insect has been modelled in a usefull way.
> 
> Otherwise my house would be filled with robots with insect intelligence for cleaning, and my garden would be minded by another bunch of them.
> 
> --
> 
> hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark
> 
> http://www.mxm.dk/
> IT's Mad Science
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com   * blogs * music * software *


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jun 16 01:54:59 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:54:59 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British Producer/Director
 Interviewing Teenagers on Future
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Friends,

I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to interview 
teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive effects of change 
on culture and, especially, the fact that they may live beyond 100 years 
old and what this means to their generation.

If you have teenagers or if you know of teenagers who are futurists and/or 
transhumanists with a positive extropic point of view about the future, 
including a view that applies critical thinking to his or her concerns and 
would like to be in a film, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Many thanks!

Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Jun 16 03:27:37 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:27:37 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615231244.037c38c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 12:50 PM 14/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
>Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
>and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.

snip

>  It was  like a switch simply turned off.

In my view humans have spirits, that's what we interact with.  So do dogs 
and cats.  So do computers running an OS on them.  Where does the spirit of 
the OS go when you turn off the power?  It is just *gone.*

>Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I
>know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too
>personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no
>idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't
>really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.

I am sure you will be ok, we evolved both to form strong attachments and to 
give them up when people around us died, something much more common in the 
days when a family had ten kids and 3 might make it to adulthood.

Still it _is_ painful, i.e., the same areas of the brain are active in such 
loses as are active when you have been seriously injured.

As Eliezer said, death is a bummer.  Worse yet deaths today are happening 
within sight (for the far sighted) of a time when death should become rare.

And certainly don't worry about posting.  This is a community and certainly 
one function of community is to offer support when people need it.  You 
certainly have mine.

Best wishes,

Keith Henson




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Jun 16 03:43:48 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:43:48 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <42AF5E7F.7040807@neopax.com>
References: <20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615230232.037db210@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 11:47 PM 14/06/05 +0100, you wrote:
>The Avantguardian wrote:
>
>>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became
>>>aware of a young man with a larger than normal head.  He was referred to
>>>Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty.  Although the
>>>boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics,
>>>he had "virtually no brain".  A noninvasive measurement of radio
>>>density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer
>>>of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness.  The rest of his skull was
>>>filled with cerebrospinal fluid.  The young man continues a
>>>normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
>>>
>>I stand corrected. Obviously there is more to the
>>brain percentage debate than meets the eye. Thanks for
>>this new tidbit of info. I am not sure exactly what to
>>make of it. The MD at the desk next to me is somewhat
>>amazed as well. This is definately NOT what they teach
>>in medical school and neuroscience class.
>>
>Well, if you're going to take it seriously I suggest you dig for real 
>references.
>If it's true it implies that AI might be simpler than we expect, at least 
>in terms of computational requirements.

I remember looking into this when it was reported.  At the time I remarked 
how the surface area of his brain seems to be the important parameter.

This is consistent with William Calvin's analysis that the hexagonal spaced 
cortical column is the "element of computation" in brains.  I ran a 
computation--which is probably can be found if someone looks--assuming that 
each of these columns could be modeled and connected to its neighbors by a 
1 cm square silicon processor.  I seem to remember it was something like 
150 meters on a side square of processors to simulate a human brain this way.

Keith Henson



From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Thu Jun 16 04:19:15 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:19:15 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
Message-ID: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>I trust Eleizer, Eugen, Marc, and those guys to
>figure out A.I.

>Marc?!

<explosive coughing fit> 
 
If it's me being discussed here I have to concede that Damian is right.  If the world has to rely on me we're fucked ;)  I gave the FAI problem a go as a hobby and crashed hopelessly against the problem for a couple of years, speaking mostly gibberish.  Actually, I was trying for a 'theory of everything'.  After a couple of years of gibberish I have finally managed to get to my 'theory of everything' to the point where I have an intuitive set of ideas that are at least comprehensible.  Now I just need to somehow  massively boost my IQ and hit the books for another ten years.... *sigh*
 
I can tell you all that there are definitely 7 universal 'categories of cognition' (or knowledge domains):  Mathematics, Matter, Mentality, Meaning, Model, Morality and Mind.  And there's some sort of highly esoteric mathematical mapping between them which is the key to everything.  Beyond that... *sigh*
 
Those who are interested can check out my rough diagram here which is a sort of 'periodic table of cognition'.  Best I've managed so far...
 
http://www.sl4.org/wiki/MarcGeddes/UniversalDataTypes
 
   
 
 
 
  


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun 16 04:50:46 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:50:46 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language: was Wetware vs. Hardware (was
	IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506160450.j5G4oWR23393@tick.javien.com>


On Behalf Of Marc Geddes

...
If it's me being discussed here I have to concede that Damian is right.? If
the world has to rely on me we're fucked ;)



This comment caused me to think of something that has
nothing to do with the singularity or AI, but rather
the phenomenon in the evolution of language where a
word or phrase takes on not just a different meaning
than the original, but the opposite.

An example would be the term "bad" which actually
means in some usages good, as for example in the
Michael Jackson song "Im Bad".  Another example would
be bitchin, which means good.  

We spend much of our energy at least as young adults
attempting to copulate early and often, yet when we
say something is fucked, that is a bad thing.  I know
of no one who objects to being the object of oral 
stimulation of the genitals, indeed very much the 
opposite.  Yet if something is undesirable it sucks?

All this makes practical newspeak very difficult, for
it becomes unclear which definition of bad must be
negated in order to make good.  We know the definition
of double plus ungood, but can ungood ever be good?

Perhaps that is the brilliance of newspeak: it
removes the ambiguity of words.  The presence of
"un-" prevents words from becoming their own opposite,
so that good stays good, bad stays bad, fucked stays 
double plus good, and so on.

spike? 



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun 16 05:13:42 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:13:42 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language: was Wetware vs. Hardware
	(wasIQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <200506160450.j5G4oWR23393@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200506160513.j5G5DPR26613@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
> 
... 
> An example would be the term "bad" which actually
> means in some usages good, as for example in the
> Michael Jackson song "Im Bad".  
> 
> spike

My notion is that European languages are used by
people whose outlook on life is nearly identical
to those which I am so familiar in the U.S.  I can 
identify no fundamental dissimilarity in emotional 
or memetic makeup of my own system to that of 
Europeans, therefore those languages should have 
analogous structures.

That assumption leads to the following question:
do Russian, German, French or any of the other
European languages have anything analogous to the term
bad coming to mean good? 

spike 




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 05:42:07 2005
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:42:07 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] The athymhormic AI
Message-ID: <7641ddc605061522424089c4a0@mail.gmail.com>

Eliezer S. Yudkowsky sentience at pobox.com wrote:
Tue Mar 29 13:39:25 MST 2005

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> Last week I commented here on the low likelihood of an AI designed as a pure
> epistemic engine (like a cortex without much else) turning against its owners,
> which I derived from the presence of complex circuitry in humans devoted to
> producing motivation and a goal system.
> 
> Now I found more about actual neurological conditions where this circuitry is
> damaged, resulting in reduced volition with preserved mentation. Athymhormia,
> as one of the forms of this disorder is called, is caused by interruption of
> the connections between frontopolar cortex and the caudate, the subcortical
> circuit implicated in sifting through motor behaviors to find the ones likely
> to achieve goals. An athymhormic person loses motivation even to eat, despite
> still being able to feel hunger in an intellectual, detached manner. At the
> same time he has essentially normal intelligence if prodded verbally, thanks to
> preservation of the cortex itself, and connections from other cortical areas
> circumventing the basal ganglia.
> 
> I would expect that the first useful general AI will be athymhormic, at least
> mildly so, rather than Friendly. What do you think, Eliezer?

Utilities play, oh, a fairly major role in cognition.  You have to 
decide what to think.  You have to decide where to invest your computing 
power.  You have to decide the value of information.

Athymhormic patients seem to have essentially normal intelligence if 
prodded verbally?  This would seem to imply that for most people 
including these patients, conscious-type desires play little or no role 
in deciding how to think - they do it all on instinct, without 
deliberate goals.  If I contracted athymhormia would I lose my desire to 
become more Bayesian?  Would I lose every art that I deliberately employ 
to perfect my thinking in the service of that aspiration?  Would I 
appear to have only slightly diminished intelligence, perhaps the 
intelligence of Eliezer-2004, on the grounds that everything I've 
learned to do more than a year ago has already become automatic reflex?

### Yes, you are right that in humans the apportionment of cognitive
resources is dictated by utility functions inherent in our structure -
e.g. the bandwidth of some forms of inputs, the makeup of the
hypothalamus, the pre-specified intracortical connections contributing
to enhanced saliency of faces, or language.

The only cases of athymhormia I heard about were adults who already
had a well-formed cortex, and therefore their cognition was fully
developed. Damage to the frontal cortex in the young tends to reduce
intelligence greatly, and I agree with you  it is quite reasonable to
believe that total loss of goals would prevent the formation of
intelligence.

--------------------------------------

If it's unwise to generalize from normal humans to AIs, is it really 
that much wiser to generalize from brain-damaged humans to AIs?  I don't 
know how to build an efficient real-world probability estimator without 
mixing in an expected utility system to allocate computing resources and 
determine the information value of questions.

### Here is where I would differ from you - I am not generalizing from
damaged humans, on the contrary, I am pointing to an exception to the
general observation that intelligent systems exhibit goal-oriented
behavior (i.e. acting on the environment, not on self).

The thread started (a long time ago, I know, sorry for not answering
sooner) discussing the likelihood of unexpected goal-oriented behavior
(specifically, moralistic behavior that John Wright worried about)
emerging from an AI not specifically designed for such moralistic
behavior.

I think that athymhormic humans point to the possibility of building
an inference engine with interest in a predictive understanding of the
world, to be achieved using computational resources given to it,
without a desire to achieve anything else. Note how simple this goal
architecture would be - "Predict future inputs based on current and
past inputs using hardware you are installed on". There would be no
need for defining friendliness to humans, which, as you very well
know, is not easy. A simpler concepts, such as "current hardware base"
would be initially sufficient to define the limitations necessary to
protect the environment from being converted into computing substrate.

At the same time it would be quite flexible - given enough hardware it
could build a hierarchical, multi-modular system similar to the
cortex. It could rewire itself to achieve greater efficiency, without
having to re-form its goal system. By providing input of interest to
us (a form of goal system housed externally) we could direct its
attention to processes that are important to us, and obtain predictive
outputs of some usefulness. In effect, the questions of the users
would be a major part of its goal system.

Now, of course, it the AI was of some immense, mind-boggling size, it
might be able to devise a method of manipulating the humans
responsible for formulation of inputs so as to e.g. get simpler
questions, but I imagine this would happen much later than the initial
period of general AI use, and would not be a concern for initial
practical applications of such AI (e.g. in biological and physical
sciences, and even in social and economic analyses).

By the time the athymhormic AI was powerful enough to form goals of
its own, the knowledge we gained from it would be already enough to
bootstrap ourselves into being smart, for a change.

Rafal


From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Thu Jun 16 06:52:55 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:52:55 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
Message-ID: <20050616065255.71043.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

We are just at the stage now with bio-tech that info-tech was at in the early 1970's.  Give it another 25 years and I'm confident we'll be seeing an explosion of advances as bio-tech reaches 'take-off', just as info-tech reached take-off in the late 80's.  The foundation is there - stem cells definitely have huge potential - it just needs to be realized.  We just need to hold out another 25 years and we'll have aging and disease on the run.  Around the same time... may be... just may be... we'll see the long awaited Singularity that will largely lick aging and death for good.
 
I realize that many more deaths will occur in that 25 year waiting period, which is really sad for the people who just missed out.  It is cold comfort to realize that victory might be achieved in 25 years time when people are dying in the here and now.  But victory we must have - only that can give meaning to the people who have been lost.
 
I want everyone here to swear the transhumanist oath.  Raise your hand.  Swear.
 
?I swear by the shelters of the stars (a mighty oath, if you but knew it)...
I shall fight to eliminate aging and death before 2030 with every my fiber of my being...
By 2030 either the Singularity will come or I will perish trying'
 
In the year 2030, let's be sure we are able to revive FM-2030 from his cryonic sleep!


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

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Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

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From pgptag at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 07:07:08 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:07:08 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
References: <F31EFF96-C903-4B12-AFDD-5989D9B4CC91@mac.com>
Message-ID: <470a3c52050616000712d4383d@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Samantha,
I am so sorry.
Most of us have seen loved ones die and know the horrible grief that
you must be feeling.
We are working together to make death a thing of the past. Someone
does more, someone does less or different, but everyone does
something. Death will be defeated. Of course there will be other
problems, people will still feel unhappy for things, and the
tragedy/comedy of life will go on.
In your own words; "Ability to travel to any point in the past, plus a
(relatively) mundane ability to scan DNA and minds leads directly to
such relative trivialities as plausible resurrection". Cling to this.
Perhaps *you* will be there to make it happen for Michael. You felt
nothing *exceptional* at the moment of Michael's death. Well probably
you don't feel TV stations directly with your brain either. Doesn't
mean they are not broadcasting all around you.
Best,
Giulio


On 6/14/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.
> I refuse to use the euphemisms like "he passed on" or "made his
> transition" or any other such well-meaning clap-trap that seems so
> goddamned empty right now.  One moment he was there, working so hard
> simply to breathe, the next minute he wasn't and the long struggle
> was over.  A moment before he answered some meaningless question I
> asked.  A moment later - nothing.
> 
> You know I have believed a lot of spiritual teachings in my life.  I
> have experienced many things I can't easily explain away from the
> materialistic scientific side.  Most of the beliefs I got over.  But
> I still thought I would feel something, experience something when
> Michael died - some touch of his "essence" saying goodbye,
> something.  For what little that seems worth right now I always felt
> most "psychically linked" to Michael.  We were very close.  I almost
> married the guy twice.  But I felt nothing.  No jolt of energy in his
> body at the end, nothing - nothing in the hours since, excepting
> waves of grief and sadness alternating with feeling numb.  It was
> like a switch simply turned off.
> 
> Don't mind me.  I will be ok.  I am sorry to lay this out there as I
> know many may be uncomfortable or feel I am laying something too
> personal on their heads unfairly.  I am simply processing.  I have no
> idea if it is right or wrong to write this or post it.  I don't
> really care.  For a while now I will simply do what I do.
> 
> - samantha
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 16:23:23 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:23:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language: was Wetware vs. Hardware
	(wasIQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <200506160513.j5G5DPR26613@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050616162323.18809.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
> > 
> ... 
> > An example would be the term "bad" which actually
> > means in some usages good, as for example in the
> > Michael Jackson song "Im Bad".  
> > 
> > spike
> 
> My notion is that European languages are used by
> people whose outlook on life is nearly identical
> to those which I am so familiar in the U.S.  I can 
> identify no fundamental dissimilarity in emotional 
> or memetic makeup of my own system to that of 
> Europeans, therefore those languages should have 
> analogous structures.
> 
> That assumption leads to the following question:
> do Russian, German, French or any of the other
> European languages have anything analogous to the term
> bad coming to mean good? 

Given the bad=good evolution came out of the african american
community, I would posit that one should look to europeans who have
endured centuries of servitude, slavery, etc. i.e. anything that is
'bad' for the master is considered 'good' for the slave, and vice versa...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! 
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun 16 17:03:57 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:03:57 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language
In-Reply-To: <20050616162323.18809.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <200506160513.j5G5DPR26613@tick.javien.com>
	<20050616162323.18809.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616115644.01d99458@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 09:23 AM 6/16/2005 -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>Given the bad=good evolution came out of the african american
>community, I would posit that one should look to europeans who have
>endured centuries of servitude, slavery, etc. i.e. anything that is
>'bad' for the master is considered 'good' for the slave, and vice versa...

Maybe to some extent, but there is a very large number of words in common 
usage that mean the opposite of their original coinage but don't seem 
amenable to that explanation. "Sophisticated" to mean knowing and classy is 
the reverse of the earlier sense of fake and tawdry. But then one could get 
into a complicated discussion about sophistry and Sophists and how the 
former is a calumny against the latter. Perhaps Greek slave teachers of 
philosophy in the Roman era are one source of this confusion, but I don't 
think it's as simple as Mike's model suggests.

Damien Broderick 



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Jun 16 17:17:31 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:17:31 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Magazine:  Le Magazine de l'Optimum 
Message-ID: <295480-220056416171731238@M2W040.mail2web.com>

Le Magazine de l'Optimum wrote a feature article on me a couple of months
ago.  The journalist has asked the magazine to send me a copy, but I have
been waiting and the magazine has still not arrived.  

Does anyone live in France who can try to get a copy for me?

thanks!

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 19:38:07 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:38:07 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050616065255.71043.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050616065255.71043.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e050616123861dbc478@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/16/05, Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
> "I swear by the shelters of the stars (a mighty oath, if you but knew it)...
> I shall fight to eliminate aging and death before 2030 with every my fiber
> of my being... 
> By 2030 either the Singularity will come or I will perish trying' 

A noble sentiment, but I'm not sure 2030 is realistic; my guess, for
what it's worth, is that mid to late 21st century is more plausible
than early. Only time will tell, of course, but remember it's a
marathon, not a sprint: if 2030 comes around and the world's problems
are still with us, that does not necessarily mean we have failed to
solve them - only that we have not done so _yet_.

- Russell


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 20:37:00 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language: was Wetware vs. Hardware
	(was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <200506160450.j5G4oWR23393@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050616203700.13112.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Perhaps that is the brilliance of newspeak: it
> removes the ambiguity of words.  The presence of
> "un-" prevents words from becoming their own
> opposite,
> so that good stays good, bad stays bad, fucked stays
> 
> double plus good, and so on.

Actually my experience as a half-decent wordsmith
would suggest that part of the power of, for example,
the English language is that the very ambiguity of it
has meaning. If I wan't to speak to 20 people who all
want to hear something different, it is the very
ambiguity of certain words and phrases that allow me
to say one thing that can make all 20 of them happy.
Just my own observation. Thus while newspeak might be
great for communicating logic and science, it sucks
(heh) for rhetoric.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
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From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jun 16 20:56:22 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:56:22 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language
References: <20050616162323.18809.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c572b5$db1ec100$e5be1b97@administxl09yj>

Mike  
> ... 'bad' for the master is considered 
> 'good' for the slave, and vice versa...

A sort of 'Newspeak' (in Orwell's 1984).
Words mean the opposite of what they 
appear to mean, or have a meaning when
applied to friends and the opposite
meaning when applied to enemies.

But for sure there are examples in
Europe. In Italy we use "dritto"
[straight, honest] to mean the opposite
[artful, rogue, ...]. 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 20:57:47 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:57:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050616000712d4383d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050616205747.81985.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <pgptag at gmail.com> wrote:

> You felt
> nothing *exceptional* at the moment of Michael's
> death. Well probably
> you don't feel TV stations directly with your brain
> either. Doesn't
> mean they are not broadcasting all around you.

Well said Guilio. I was asleep when my uncle from 2
states away appeared in my room and jokingly told me
he had died. I woke up, thought it was just a morbid
dream, vowed to call him later to check up on him, and
went back to sleep. Later that morning I got a phone
call from his grand-daughter who told me that he had
either accidently or purposely removed his oxygen mask
the night before and died as a result of it. I can't
explain this, but I cannot disbelieve it either
because it HAPPENED. So I would encourage Samantha to
keep a dream log. If the bond between her and Michael
was a strong as she said, I cannot imagine that he
would not try to communicate with her if he could. And
my own experience tells me that we are most receptive
to this sort of thing in REM state.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jun 16 04:46:29 2005
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:46:29 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Bene Tleilaxu and your mitochondria
In-Reply-To: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7641ddc605061521462fb43edc@mail.gmail.com>

A few months ago I promised to post an article on mitochondria and
aging which I was writing with Shaharyar Khan, and finally I can keep
my promise. "Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy and a theory of aging and
age-related disease" will be published in Rejuvenation Research in
August. Here is the text (without figures) and I can send the pdf to
anyone interested.

Questions and comments welcome.

Rafal 

Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy and a theory of aging and age-related disease

Rafal M. Smigrodzki, MD PhD*
and
Shaharyar M. Khan, PhD

Address for correspondence and reprints: Gencia Corporation, 706B
Forest St, Charlottesville VA, 22903, Phone 434-295-4800, Fax:
434-295-4951, Email: rafal at genciabiotech.com

Keywords: Microheteroplasmy, aging, AD, PD, diabetes, hypertension

*Corresponding author to whom communications should be addressed. 

Abstract

We implicate a recently described form of mitochondrial mutation,
mitochondrial microheteroplasmy, as a candidate for the principal
component of aging. Microheteroplasmy is the presence of hundreds of
independent mutations in one organism, with each mutation usually
found in 1 - 2% of all mitochondrial genomes. Despite the low
abundance of single mutations, the vast majority of mitochondrial
genomes in all adults are mutated. This mutational burden includes
inherited mutations, de novo germline mutations, as well as somatic
mutations acquired either during early embryonic development or later
in adult life. We postulate that microheteroplasmy is sufficient to
explain the pathomechanism of several age-associated diseases,
especially in conditions with known mitochondrial involvement, such as
diabetes (DM), cardiovascular disease, Parkinson's disease (PD), and
Alzheimer's disease (AD) and cancer.  The genetic properties of
microheteroplasmy reconcile the results of disease models (cybrids,
hypermutable PolG variants and mitochondrial toxins), with the
relatively low levels of maternal inheritance in the aforementioned
diseases, and provide an explanation of their delayed, progressive
course.

Article Outline

1. Introduction
2. Review of mitochondrial biology and genetics
	2.1 Mitochondrial biology and mtDNA
2.2 Changes in mitochondrial genomes during early ontogeny
2.3 Replication Induced Mutations
2.4 Heteroplasmy
2.5 Microheteroplasmy and certain other acquired mitochondrial mutations
3. Mitochondria in age-related disease
3.1 Lines of evidence
3.2 Neurodegeneration
3.3 Diabetes and hypertension
3.4 Cancer
	3.5 Animal models of mitochondrial aging
4. Mitochondrial theory of aging
	4.1 Objections to the mitochondrial hypothesis of aging
	4.2 Microheteroplasmic mitochondrial theory of aging
	4.3 Cellular responses to microheteroplasmy
	4.4 Focal microheteroplasmy
4.5 Microheteroplasmy in stem cells
5. Competing hypotheses
5.1 Relationship to competing hypotheses
	5.2 Unresolved issues
6. Predictions of the microheteroplasmic mitochondrial theory of aging
	6.1 Age-related diseases
	6.2 Normal aging
6.3 Therapeutic opportunity
7. Conclusion
	7.1 All roads lead to Rho (??)
8. Acknowledgements.
9. References

1. Introduction

Aging, broadly defined, is the decline and failure of biological
processes to maintain the complexity and contiguity of an organism
over time. Maintaining this complexity and contiguity in the face of
entropic forces requires continuous energy appropriation and
dissipation 1. Another element crucial to maintenance of complexity is
integrity of genetic information, as evidenced by progerias,
conditions where failure of genomic maintenance leads to accelerated
development of aging phenotypes 2. Interestingly, many progerias
primarily affect stem cells and their generation of oxidative stress,
preventing the repopulation of tissues damaged with age 3.  These
diseases provide significant insights into the relevance of
maintaining genomic integrity against the ravages of time.

In contrast to considering aging from the perspective of fundamental
physical and systems-theory principles, practical approaches to the
pathophysiology of most aging-related diseases focus on specific
biochemical changes that accompany aging. Thus, mutations in various
nuclear genes have been found in familial cases of such late-onset
conditions as AD  4, 5,  PD  6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and DM (multiple genes,
reviewed in 11). Some nuclear polymorphisms have been found to
correlate with an increased risk of developing AD 12, PD 13, DM 11,
cardiomyopathy 14, or atherosclerosis 15. Involvement of toxins, such
as the complex I inhibitors rotenone and other pesticides is
hypothesized in PD 16. Based on the analysis of familial models of
such diseases, a number of biochemical processes, such as protein
folding, post-translational processing, protein degradation, and
accumulation of toxic products are believed to be involved in the
sporadic, age-related forms of these diseases, although no causative
nuclear gene mutations have been identified in the vast majority of
cases. This observation is significant: absence of mutations should
exclude a gene from consideration as a cause, relegating it and the
relevant processes to a secondary role in pathomechanism. Despite
this, aggregated proteins and lipids in the form of neurofibrillary
tangles, Lewy bodies and other aggregated proteins, or lipofuscin have
been postulated as causative in aging.  Weakening their case, however,
is that none has so far been unequivocally shown to persist throughout
ontogeny. Indeed, the accumulation of at least some of them (NFT,
lipofuscin, A-beta) is reversible 17 and 18, while other misfolded
protein aggregates are known to be protective 19.

A molecular substrate of aging and the permissive factor for
age-related disease would have to persist for decades and accumulate
change over this time. The nuclear and mitochondrial DNA appear to
have the requisite characteristics: long half-life, and the
accumulation of mutations (information loss) which persist even
through replication, a feat not typical of proteins or lipids, whose
turnover erases changes accumulated after synthesis. Thus, while there
may be other molecular mechanisms for long-term accumulation of change
important in some contexts, such as prions, protein glycation and
other chemical reactions, primarily in avascular tissues with slow
turnover of macromolecules, DNA appears to be the most likely
candidate for the substrate of aging.

Based on the above considerations, aging should be conceptualized
primarily as a disease of our somatic cell DNA, where mutations
accumulate with time, and lead to cellular dysfunction. Thus, aging is
an integral of information loss over time. Information loss may take
the form of not only a total loss of genes but also accumulation of
corrupted versions of genes (the importance of this point should
become apparent in our later discussion of the biochemical mechanism
of aging). Other factors related to aging, such as oxidative stress,
nitrosative stress, inflammation, or protein aggregation would then
act through a common DNA-related mechanism or represent secondary
events.

The accumulation of mutations in somatic DNA is not a new concept. 
Originally postulated by Knudson, carcinogenesis is thought to involve
serially accumulated mutations in oncogenes and anti-oncogenes that
lead to uncontrolled proliferation 20, 21.  For other features of
aging, the pre-eminent theory implicates mitochondria. According to
the mitochondrial theory of aging, first proposed by Harman in 1972
22, mitochondrial genomes accumulate mutations as a result of damage
from reactive oxygen species, replication and/or repair errors,
leading to impairment of oxidative phosphorylation, failure of ATP
production, and slowing of cellular maintenance processes. Since
mitochondria have been shown to be crucial for programmed cell death
23, damage to their genomes may lead to apoptosis and loss of tissue
function. Furthermore, as the producers of energy, informational loss
in mitochondrial genomes would predict an exponential decline due to
entropic forces, persistent energy production being the primary
provider of informational contiguity. No other theory so closely
accounts for both the energetic/metabolic and informational decline
that occurs with age.  However, this theory does not explain why
specific age-related diseases appear only in a fraction of the
population, even though the mutations would accumulate in all adults,
and it fails to account for the wide range of ages of onset.

We propose that the recently described form of DNA damage,
mitochondrial microheteroplasmy 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 and the
individual differences in its accumulation confer a proclivity to
develop specific age-related conditions, such as PD, AD, DM,
cardiovascular disease, as well as determine to a great extent the
rate at which we age. The rate of accumulation of mutations in mtDNA
will determine the timing of onset, subject to modulation by nuclear
genetic and environmental factors; thus acting as the principal
component of the molecular clock of aging. Microheteroplasmy has also
important methodological implications ?C the current practice of direct
sequencing of mtDNA products is very likely to miss most pathogenic
mutations and should be supplemented by clonal sequencing. This
represents an extension and refinement of the mitochondrial theory of
aging.

In the following exposition we first review data on mitochondrial
genetics, then explore the literature on the biochemical connections
between mitochondria and age-related disease, and finally attempt to
outline the case for mitochondrial microheteroplasmy as the causative
factor in aging and age-related diseases. We also provide a
methodological explanation for the failure of many in the field of
mitochondrial genomics and aging to identify low level mutations
present in nearly all mitochondrial genomes.

2. Review of mitochondrial biology and genetics

2.1 Mitochondrial biology and mtDNA

Mitochondria are intracellular organelles found in almost all
eukaryotes, derived from ??-proteobacteria and possessing their own
genome 30, 31. They are involved in many biochemical processes, most
notably oxidative phosphorylation, and in apoptosis, or programmed
cell death.  In humans, the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA, at the time
of its discovery referred to as ?? DNA) is a 16.5 kb circular dsDNA
molecule which codes for 13 protein subunits of the electron transport
chain (ETC), as well as the tRNA and rRNA genes necessary for the
translation of the protein genes. In each cell there are usually
between 1,000 and 100,000 copies of mtDNA, on average 4,900 mtDNA
genomes per nuclear genome 32. Since each copy may be independently
replicated, mutations can accumulate in various proportions of the
genomes. The presence of a mutation in 100% of the genomes is termed
homoplasmy, while heteroplasmy is a mixture of mutated and wild-type
sequences for a given locus.

MtDNA is almost exclusively inherited through the maternal line 33
which allows the detection of mitochondrial contributions to phenotype
by observing the degree of matrilineal inheritance of a trait 34. A
number of strictly maternally inherited conditions have thus been
linked to mtDNA: MELAS, MERRF, LHON, CPEO, MILS, and others 35. In all
of them the causative mutation turns out to be either a homoplasmic
mutation or a heteroplasmic mutation present in a high percentage of
genomes, usually higher than 50%, though 20% heteroplasmy can also
produce phenotypes. The phenotypic manifestation of these mutations
tend to develop in infancy, childhood, or early adulthood, and
frequently include encephalopathy, myopathy, and diabetes, in addition
to other specific symptoms which serve to define the above-mentioned
syndromes.

2.2 Changes in mitochondrial genomes during early ontogeny

Cells in the maternal germ line spend many decades in a largely
quiescent, amitotic state, arrested in the metaphase of the second
meiotic division 36 ?C despite this, their mitochondrial genomes
undergo continuous turnover. In all tissues, whether consisting of
mitotic or postmitotic cells, mtDNA undergoes continuous replication
and replacement, with a half-life of a few weeks 37. Accumulation of
mutations thus occurs constantly throughout ontogeny 38, 39, 40(also
reviewed in 41), and is due to both polymerase errors and errors in
the repair of DNA damaged by environmental influences.

Since uncorrected accumulation of mutations would within a very small
number of generations become incompatible with survival, there are
mechanisms for selection against mtDNA mutations. Currently it is
believed that the majority of female germ line cells undergo apoptosis
42 in the final stages of maturation. Accumulation of mtDNA mutations
above a certain threshold was postulated as the causative mechanism
43, although the precise levels and types of mtDNA mutations necessary
to trigger apoptosis have yet to be defined. An element of the sensing
mechanism which detects the accumulation of mutations is the
production of ROS (reactive oxygen species) 44, as evidenced by
susceptibility of oocytes to pulses of ROS. ROS are byproducts of
oxidative phosphorylation, generated mainly by electron leakage from
complexes I and III of the ETC 45. They are capable of damaging
proteins, lipids and nucleic acids, and are believed to be the
principal agent directly causing mutations in human DNA. During the
maturation of germline cells, the oocyte switches from the anaerobic
metabolism it used for 20 to 40 years (time from formation of ovaries
in the fetus to initiation of ovulatory cycle in the woman) 46 to
metabolism based on oxidative phosphorylation and increasing amounts
of ROS are generated. In germline cells and early embryos with
severely damaged mtDNA, and correspondingly high ROS output, apoptosis
is initiated, thus favoring the selective production of ova and
embryos with largely intact mtDNA 47 (Fig 1).

However, as noted above, there are many conditions where this
cleansing mechanism fails. Some deleterious mtDNA mutations, such as
the high-level heteroplasmic A3243 mutation responsible for many cases
of MELAS 48, are compatible with the survival of the ovum and fetus.
Lower levels (<5%,) 49 of this mutation may be present in the maternal
line for generations, with few phenotypic manifestations but if their
concentration rises to the range >20% (see also  50), increasingly
early and/or severe phenotypes develop.

2.3 Replication Induced Mutations

The mitochondrial DNA polymerase, PolG, is a family A polymerase
related to phage polymerases that contains two subunits, a catalytic
domain possessing exonuclease capability and a processivity subunit. 
Like all family A polymerases, PolG introduces mistakes during
polymerization but that are quickly repaired by the exonuclease
domain.  Several investigators have taken advantage of this fact and
introduced mutations in the exonuclease domain to create PolG mutants
that accumulate mutations in mtDNA 51, 52.  These models have provided
revealing insights into mutational accumulation in mtDNA throughout
ontogeny.  Critics, however, have continued to point to the excellent
in vitro exonuclease capability of PolG as evidence that these models
have little to do with mammalian aging.  As such, this criticism has
shifted focus from mtDNA polymerization to mtDNA repair as a major
bottleneck in mtDNA accumulation.

A recent study has revealed that in vitro exonuclease capacity of PolG
can be significantly impaired by imbalances in nucleotide
concentrations 53.  The study finds that mitochondrial dNTP pools are
highly asymmetric in vivo with an overabundant representation of dGTP.
 This overrepresentation is sufficient to drive mutagenesis with a 4
fold increase in single base pair error over that occurring at
equimolar dNTP reactions.  Such a high error rate would predict high
mtDNA mutation accumulation rates and may provide an explanation for
the mechanism of mtDNA mutation accumulation even in the absence of
additional processes, such as ROS-induced damage.

2.4 Heteroplasmy

Heteroplasmy, the presence of varying fractions of mutated mtDNA in
tissues, has been extensively studied in many paradigms. Usually,
mitochondrial DNA is used as a template for PCR, and the amplified DNA
is directly sequenced. This method allows only the reliable detection
of mutations present in no less than 30% of mitochondrial genomes.
Since the PCR product is a mixture of DNA species, in heteroplasmic
loci there are superimposed peaks on the sequencing chromatogram ?C the
lower peak corresponding to the minor component cannot be easily and
reliably distinguished from instrument noise. With additional
refinements it is possible to increase sensitivity to about 10%
heteroplasmy 38 but as alluded to before, this is still well below the
sensitivity needed to detect the class of mutations which are the
focus of this article. Another technique used to analyze mutations is
denaturing HPLC (DHPLC) 54 but even there the sensitivity is usually
not better than 3% and confirmatory sequencing is still necessary to
localize the mutation. The state of the field is much akin to being
forced to study protein structure using a conventional light
microscope - simply put, we would be forced to postulate that proteins
do not exist

There is an enormous body of experimental data describing high-level
heteroplasmic and homoplasmic mutations. Homoplasmic mutations have
been found to be causative in the classical mitochondrial diseases, in
diabetes 55, deafness 56, the metabolic syndrome 49, and others. There
are homoplasmic mutations which correlate with sporadic PD 57,
cardiomyopathy 58, bipolar disorder 59, and other common conditions.
All of these, however, are found only in a small percentage of cases.

2.5 Microheteroplasmy and certain other acquired mitochondrial mutations

The other form of mtDNA mutational load, low-level heteroplasmic
mutations (microheteroplasmy), is more difficult to detect. To detect
an unknown mtDNA mutation present in 1 to 2 % of genomes it is
currently necessary to clone the amplified mtDNA PCR fragment and
sequence hundreds of clones. With cloning, the signal from minor
mutated species can be observed separately and the percentage of
mutation can be calculated from the ratio of wild-type vs. mutated
clones. This procedure is more than a hundred times more expensive
than direct PCR sequencing. Consequently, there is much less data on
microheteroplasmy. Available studies 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, indicate
that microheteroplasmy is present in all tissues, at all ages
examined, and in all subjects. There is progressive accumulation of
mutations over many decades in most tissues, with the notable
exception of the substantia nigra, the brainstem nucleus affected in
PD, where a high level of microheteroplasmy is present even at birth.
Thus, in contrast to homoplasmic mutations and most high-level
heteroplasmic mutations, microheteroplasmy is largely an acquired form
of mutational burden. Each of the mutations detected is usually
present at a 1-2 % level or less, although some of them may be present
in up to 10% in homogenates and in 10-20 % level in single cells 27.
With hundreds of different mutations in each patient their total
burden adds up to a level comparable with the mutation loads present
in classical mitochondrial disorders. There appears to be a roughly
smooth distribution of mutations along the genome, except for the
mitochondrial control region, or the D-loop, where the mutation
frequency is approximately ten times higher than in the coding parts
of the genome. The estimated percentage of mitochondrial genomes with
at least one amino acid-changing mutation, a mutation  in a tRNA  rRNA
gene, or in a control region, is > 90%, based on the mutation level of
59.3 mutations per million basepairs in complex I and 640 mutations in
non-coding regions 24. If the higher mutation level estimates from 27,
28 and 26 are used, the average mitochondrial genome from an aged
adult is calculated to have about 3 point mutations, with the majority
of them present in protein-coding regions. This means that at an
advanced age there are virtually no wild-type mitochondria left.

Deletions are another form of acquired mitochondrial mutational burden
(reviewed in 60). Progressive accumulation of mitochondrial deletions
was observed in the rat and rhesus monkey muscle, with unique
deletions appearing in segments within single muscle fibers at levels
up to 10 ?C 15% 61. The presence of such unique deletions correlates
with ETC abnormalities, such as COX negativity and leads to sarcopenia
60. Approximately 60% of muscle fibers exhibit such genetic and
phenotypic abnormalities in some muscles in the aged rhesus monkey 62.
Deletions accumulating to approximately 20% lead to a profound
sensitization of cells to pro-apoptotic stimuli 63.

Thus, in stark contrast to the frequently quoted estimate of 0.1%
mutated mitochondrial genomes 64, 65, the true mutational load is
orders of magnitude higher.

As alluded to in the introduction, this finding has important
methodological implications ?C the, literally, thousands of studies
looking at mtDNA with direct sequencing of PCR products were for
technical reasons alone incapable of detecting the majority of
mutations.

Interestingly, there is no correlation between the total number of
microheteroplasmic mutations and the two conditions where such
correlations have been sought so far, PD and AD. However, in PD there
is a correlation between the phenotype and the presence of mutations
in certain very narrow regions of the mitochondrial genome 25. In the
mitochondrial gene ND5 the presence of aminoacid-changing mutations
between codons 127 and 146 correlates very strongly with PD, and using
a genetic algorithm method it is possible to correctly classify 12 out
of 12 samples as PD or control (p= 0.00024). A prospective study
looking specifically at this region 29 correctly identified 15 out of
16 samples. In contrast to e.g. nuclear gene mutations such as parkin,
or ??-synuclein, these mutations were found in almost all cases of
sporadic PD examined to date. In combination with the other data on
mitochondrial dysfunction in sporadic PD (summarized in the next
section), including cybrid data, this result may be interpreted as
evidence for substantial causal involvement of mtDNA in this disease.
No equivalent studies have been done for AD, however, a preliminary
study of D-loop mutations 66 showed a correlation to AD. We propose to
refer to the presence of small regions where microheteroplasmy
correlates with phenotypes as "focal microheteroplasmy".

To summarize the data on mitochondrial genome: It has the
characteristics necessary for the molecular clock of aging,
accumulates mutations both through inheritance and during aging in all
humans, at levels sufficient to explain phenotypic change, and in some
cases the acquired mutations already have been shown to correlate
with, or explain age-related disease.

3. Mitochondria in age-related disease

3.1 Lines of evidence

There are multiple independent lines of evidence for mitochondrial
involvement in various age-related conditions. Broadly, they can be
categorized as follows:

-	matrilineal inheritance
-	correlation of homoplasmic mtDNA mutations and familial forms of the
conditions
-	detectable enzymatic defects in complexes coded by mtDNA
-	replication of disease phenotype in vitro and in vivo by toxins
acting directly on mitochondria
-	replication of pathological biochemistry in cells receiving mtDNA
from patient samples with sporadic forms of the disease
-	detection of elevated oxidative stress, especially preceding the
development of the phenotype
-	mitochondrial localization/interaction of the products of nuclear
genes known to cause early-onset familial forms of disease
-	replication of aging phenotypes in animals after specific induction
of mtDNA damage
-	correlations between disease susceptibility and mtDNA haplotypes

Below we summarize some of the available evidence in the
neurodegenerative conditions PD, AD, as well as in DM, hypertension
and cancer.

3.2 Neurodegeneration

In Parkinson's disease there is a marked deficiency of complex I of
the electron transport chain. First detected by Parker et al. 67, and
subsequently confirmed in multiple studies, the complex I deficit is
present in all tissues examined, and at all stages of the disease
(reviewed in 24). The cells most affected in PD, the pigmented giant
neurons of the substantia nigra, appear to be very susceptible to
complex I dysfunction, as evidenced by the actions of pharmacological
inhibitors of complex I, such as MPP+ or rotenone. Intake of MPP+ is
sufficient to cause an acute form of Parkinson's disease in humans 68
and experimental animals, while chronic administration of rotenone has
been shown to induce histopathological changes and a phenotype
consistent with PD in rodents 16. It must be noted, however, that in
the condition caused by MPP+ there is symmetric nigral degeneration,
while in PD there is usually pronounced asymmetry in rate of
degeneration between the two sides, which implies that the actual
cause of sporadic PD differs from a simple exposure to complex I
inhibitors. Complex I inhibitors in the environment may modify the
progression of PD in humans as shown by increased frequency of PD in
workers chronically exposed to pesticides 69.

A similar situation exists in AD, where another part of the electron
transport chain, complex IV, shows decreased activity in the brain and
other tissues 70, while a complex IV inhibitor, azide, replicates
symptoms of cognitive decline in rats 71 as well as increased
oxidative stress and deposition of phosphorylated tau protein, one of
the histopathological hallmarks of AD. The recent discovery of a human
model of AD in AIDS patients receiving HAART (highly active
antiretroviral therapy) points further to the importance of
mitochondria in AD pathogenesis. Nucleoside anti-retrovirals which
were originally designed as inhibitors of the viral DNA polymerase
also inhibit the mitochondrial DNA polymerase, polymerase ?? 72. During
prolonged administration there is accelerated accumulation of mtDNA
mutations 73, including deletions and substitutions, producing
cognitive dysfunction and AD-like pathology 74, 75, in direct parallel
to the MPP+-evoked parkinsonism.

For both PD and AD there is ample research in an in vitro model as
well, the cytoplasmic hybrid, or cybrids. Cybrids are produced by
fusing cells previously deprived of their endogenous mtDNA (so called
??0 cells) with mitochondria from patient samples, resulting in a
hybrid with a constant nuclear background and a transplanted
mitochondrial gene complement. In this way the influences of the
mitochondrial genome on the physiology of a cell can be separated from
nuclear factors, and direct comparisons can be made between the
functional properties of mitochondrial DNA from various sources.

Cybrids generated with mitochondria harvested from PD patients exhibit
complex I deficiency similar to patient cells, showing direct
inheritance of the biochemical abnormality through mitochondria 76,
77. Since this complex I deficiency is stable over tens of cell
doublings, any protein or membrane components transferred with mtDNA
become diluted and removed, leaving only mtDNA as the carrier of
information causing complex I dysfunction. In addition to complex I
deficiency, PD cybrids exhibit a number of other physiological
derangements found in PD patient tissues, including abnormalities of
calcium homeostasis 78, increased antioxidant enzymes, increased ROS
production 79, and protein aggregation in the form of Lewy bodies, the
histopathological hallmarks of PD 80.

Alzheimer's cybrids replicate complex IV dysfunction 76 and other
features of AD brain, such as increased ROS output 76 and deposition
of ??-amyloid 81.

There is ample literature on the mitochondrial
localization/interaction of nuclear gene products causing familial
forms of PD 10, 82, 83, 84 and AD 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, also
reviewed in section 5.1. Certain mitochondrial haplogroups (K,
possibly J) confer protection from PD 92, 93, while others (JTWIX) 57
are associated with higher risk. In AD, haplogroups K and U reduce the
impact of the ApoE4 allele 94.

These data suggest, although certainly do not prove, that
mitochondrial dysfunction is the initial event in the pathomechanism
of both PD and AD, with protein aggregation abnormalities being
important secondary, downstream events. The recent discovery of
protein aggregates serving a protective role as way stations for
misfolded proteins 19 shifts focus from the accumulation of protein
aggregates to the adaptive roles these proteins may play in the
homeostasis of the cell in the face of mitochondrially generated
stress.
  
It is worth noting that aside from cybrids there are no other models
of AD or PD where material from sporadic patients is sufficient to
replicate histopathology of the disease ?C the AD models based on
mutated versions of APP use material from familial cases, and
therefore have somewhat limited relevance to the majority of AD.

3.3 Diabetes and hypertension

There is also mounting evidence for mitochondrial involvement in type
II diabetes, and hypertension. In the case of diabetes, between 3 and
5 % of cases can be traced to specific mitochondrial DNA mutations 95,
and using more sensitive statistical testing as much as 22.5 % of
cases can be ascribed to maternal inheritance 34. A number of mtDNA
homoplasmic and high-level heteroplasmic mutations have been shown to
correlate with diabetes, including the MELAS A3243G mutation which is
found in about 1 to 2.8% of DM in the general population. Another
mitochondrial mutation predisposing to DM is the T16189C variant 96,
97, 98, 99, 100. There is evidence for the role of mitochondrial
dysfunction in the elderly in the etiology of insulin resistance 101.
Mitochondrial activity is also impaired in insulin-resistant offspring
of patients with type II diabetes 102, 103, and in their healthy
relatives 104. Since impaired insulin resistance is the best predictor
of developing diabetes, this indicates that mitochondrial dysfunction
is present in the earliest stages of diabetes development. Work in a
mouse model of insulin resistance, the conditional insulin receptor
knockout MIRKO mouse 105 indicates that the mitochondrial
abnormalities are independent of insulin resistance and are sufficient
to cause most of the gene expression abnormalities associated with DM,
again pointing to mitochondrial dysfunction as the cause rather than
the effect of insulin resistance. Mitochondrial dysfunction in HIV
patients on HAART induces diabetes 106. Finally, the mechanism by
which alloxane and streptozotocin cause diabetes in animal models is
through increasing oxidative stress, underscoring the susceptibility
of pancreatic ?? cells to mitochondrial insults 107.

In the case of hypertension, elevated oxidative stress is
well-established as a contributing factor 108. A model of
mitochondrial causation is again observed in patients receiving HAART,
where accelerated aging of the cardiovascular system is present 106.
There is a significant maternal component in the inheritance of
hypertension, estimated at 55% 34. Specific mtDNA mutations have been
found in African American men with hypertension 109. Recently, a large
kindred with maternal inheritance of hypertension,
hypercholesterolemia, and hypomagnesemia caused by the mtDNA mutation
T4291C was found 110.  Elevated ROS production is seen 111 in
hypertensive patients and diminished ETC activities 112 are found in
an angiotensin-II model of hypertension.

These data show that mitochondrial dysfunction is an important event
in the pathogenesis of DM, and hypertension, and are compatible with
the interpretation of mtDNA dysfunction as a contributing primary
event, rather than an epiphenomenon or secondary event in
pathogenesis.

3.4 Cancer

When Otto Warburg originally observed that cancer cells utilize
glycolysis almost to the exclusion of oxidative metabolism for energy
production, he could not have anticipated that mtDNA is mutated in the
vast majority of tumor masses studied to date 113.  While nuclear
mutations are clearly indispensable for the evolution of a neoplasm
and are the focus of most oncological research, mtDNA is now starting
to be seen as more than just an epiphenomenon 114.  The exploration of
its role can be approached from two perspectives: the observed
biochemistry of tumor tissues and the analyses of evolutionary
mechanisms which allowed the formation of multicellular organisms.

The biochemical side of the equation is demonstrated by reliance of
tumor cells on glycolytic metabolism, which is widely observed in many
neoplasms 115. Since mtDNA codes for enzyme subunits indispensable for
oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS), mutations damaging it will leave
the cell dependent on glycolysis.

The evolutionary perspective was explored in a series of studies by
Pfeiffer and Bonhoeffer 116, 117. In organisms capable of living both
in a single-cell and a multicellular form, such as the slime mold
Dictyostelium, switching from OXPHOS to glycolysis initiates a switch
to single-cell mode, where competition for glucose prevents cell
cooperation.  On the other hand, because oxidative metabolism provides
a significantly more efficient means of energy utilization, in
substrate-limited states a cell can afford to cooperate with its
neighbors, thus enabling multicellularity.  These observations and the
fact that mitochondria are found in one form or another throughout the
eukaryotic lineage 118 have prompted some to hypothesize that
endosymbiosis and the gain in oxygen utilization were a necessary step
in the formation and success of multicellularity on Earth 119, 120.

It would be thus expected that depriving mammalian cells of their
ability to use OXPHOS will shift them to a low-cooperativity, less
differentiated state with a higher mitotic potential. Indeed, this is
what is observed: cells devoid of their mtDNA have higher propensity
to metastasis than their mtDNA-possessing cohorts as well as gene
expression profiles reminiscent of a less differentiatied state 121,
122.  MtDNA dysfunction in classical mitochondrial diseases leads
otherwise quiescent cells, such as cardiac muscle to have basal
activity of cell cycle components typical for dividing cells, between
G2 and M 123. Furthermore, cybrid cells containing mutations in mtDNA
increase tumorigenesis when transplanted into nude mice 121, 124, 125.
 The increase in tumorigenic potential can be attenuated by allotopic
expression of the wild-type mitochondrial gene 125.  These
observations paint a picture of many neoplasias as an evolutionary
process of cell adaptation with mitochondria playing a prominent role.

Two additional elements needed to build a coherent, mechanistic
explanation of mtDNA involvement in cancer are the role of
mitochondria in apoptosis 23, 126, and their role in production of
ROS. Loss of mitochondrial function limits apotosis 126. Increased
production of ROS, such as may be caused by mtDNA mutations, leads to
nuclear DNA mutations, telomere attrition and genomic instability 127,
128, decreased nuclear genomic maintenance 129 and favors metastasis
130.

The chain of events leading to neoplasia can be thus described as
follows: As nuclear and mtDNA mutations accumulate, ROS production
increases, accelerating accumulation of mutations. Many cells, sensing
a rise in ROS levels, act to limit ROS production by down-regulating
electron transport and shifting to glycolysis through master
regulators such as HIF-1?? 131 and VHL 132, 133, 134. Shifting to
glycolysis by utilizing these master regulators also initiates global
gene expression changes towards a less specialized, more
dedifferentiated state 135, 136.  This adaptation initially limits
mitochondrial ROS production but some ROS generation is shifted to
redox reactions that can be carried out on the plasma membrane 137.
Plasma membrane ROS are potent mediators of cellular motility and
metastasis 138, 139. Finally, the burden of ROS, lack of oxidative
metabolism, shift in global gene expression to a more dedifferentiated
state, limitations of apoptotic ability of mitochondria and increasing
nuclear mutations enable a cell to escape the cell death program and
proliferate despite its neighbors.

3.5 Animal models of mitochondrial aging 

The close causal relationship between accumulation of mtDNA mutations
and age-related functional loss is also evident in a mouse model of
hypermutated mitochondrial DNA induced by a mistake-prone version of
the mitochondrial DNA polymerase, pol ?? 51.These mutants exhibit
accelerated accumulation of mtDNA mutations and an accelerated aging
phenotype of osteopenia, kyphosis, alopecia, weight loss and
cardiomegaly.

Recently, utilizing allometric relationships, Wright et al. 140
compared degenerative rates between five species with varying maximum
life span potentials.  They found that mitochondrially generated
oxidative stress was the primary regulator of degenerative rates in
retina and brain despite the varying influences of nuclear genes and
species specific background.  These findings and the significant role
mitochondria play in the intrinsic apoptotic pathway help point to
mitochondria as primary rheostat for the cell??integrating various
signals while producing a cell's energy.

To summarize: many of the specific manifestations of aging have been
shown to be related to mitochondria by multiple lines of evidence -
matrilineal inheritance, transmission of pathology with mtDNA in
cellular models, direct evidence of mitochondrial abnormality in the
form of oxidative stress, as well as replication of aging phenotypes
by mitochondrial toxins, and by some mitochondrial mutations.

4. Mitochondrial theory of aging

4.1 Objections to the mitochondrial hypothesis of aging

The primary obstacle in the acceptance of the mitochondrial theory of
aging and age-related diseases was heretofore the lack of a set of
mutations which would be detectable in all aged adults at levels
sufficient to explain the physiological derangements. Many authors
point to the estimate of a total of 0.1% mutated mitochondrial genomes
derived from searches for known pathological mutations performed in
healthy aged adults  64, 65, 141, 142, as evidence that mtDNA could
not be the clock of aging.

The disease-correlated homoplasmic mtDNA mutations in AD and PD are
found in a very small percentage of patients. Similarly, mtDNA
mutations in diabetes and hypertension are present in a minority of
patients. Thus, while this particular type of mtDNA mutation could
explain some features of aging in a few families, it would not be
widely applicable, just as a nuclear gene AD or PD mutation found in
one kindred cannot explain these diseases in general.

The changes in the D-loop 38, 143, the common 4977-bp deletion, and
other deletions increase in frequency with aging in the elderly 144,
145. However, the D-loop changes, while accumulating to high levels,
are found in a minority of patients, even in centenarians. Deletions
are typically found at levels < 1% (except in a minority of sections
of muscle fibers where they reach significant levels 60) and fail to
show a clear correlation with diseases of aging. In some experimental
paradigms (caloric restriction) it is possible to reverse the
accumulation of the common deletion in some tissues to a youthful
level, with only partial reversal of the phenotype 146 which militates
against this mtDNA change as the inexorable clock of aging. Thus,
these forms of mtDNA damage are still insufficient to keep the
mitochondrial theory of aging alive.

What is perhaps equally troubling, there appears to be only a modest
maternal inheritance effect in AD 147, and PD 148, 149, and a rather
moderate effect in DM 34, 55. Hypertension was found to have a major
maternal effect of 55% in one study 34 (maternal effect is here
defined as the percentage of cases attributable to a maternally
inherited factor). Low or nonexistent levels of maternal inheritance
would be expected if aging was caused by a random accumulation of
mtDNA mutations, but then other (nuclear, environmental) factors would
be needed to explain the inter-individual variation in the patterns of
aging. Random accumulation, however, would also predict a general
decline in ETC activity and would be difficult to reconcile with data
from cybrids in PD and AD, where specific elements of the ETC are
impaired in all tissues. Conversely, if aging is caused by inherited
focal mutations capable of generating specific ETC activity losses,
then strong maternal inheritance would be expected.

Finally, there are reports of a lack of significant decline in ETC
activity in isolated muscle mitochondria from aged humans 150, 151.
These studies were performed on mitochondria from homogenates,
therefore they may exhibit selection effects due to the possible loss
of more fragile mitochondrial sub-fractions, and directly contradict
other studies 152, 153 but they seem to be incompatible with the
notion that mtDNA damage contributes to aging by lowering the overall
ability to perform oxidative phosphorylation.

4.2 Microheteroplasmic mitochondrial theory of aging

These major deficiencies of the mitochondrial theory of aging are
addressed by the recent discovery of mitochondrial microheteroplasmy.
As indicated in section 2.4, microheteroplasmy affects the vast
majority of genomes in adults, with at least 90% of genomes in every
aged adult predicted to have at least one amino-acid changing mutation
per genome. Even if some fraction of these mutations is innocuous, the
total level is on par with levels of deleterious mutations sufficient
to cause severe phenotypes in classical mitochondrial conditions. It
is no longer necessary to postulate the existence of "amplification"
of the impact of rare age-related mutations by hypothetical
mechanisms, since the mutations actually present may suffice to cause
dysfunction by the same pathways involved in e.g. MELAS 154.

The mutations are present in all tissues examined so far and in every
individual, making them the suitable substrate for a ubiquitous clock.
Mutations levels are lowest in the neonate, and smoothly increase with
age, exactly as would be expected from a time-measuring quantity (or
perhaps more precisely, an integrator of damage over time). There are
differences in the rate of accumulation between various regions in the
brain, with the substantia nigra exhibiting a level of about 200
mutations per 106 bp (200/106) even in the youngest age group (<10
years old), while the frontal cortex starts at a level of about 45/106
and gradually, in the oldest age group (~ 75 years), approaches
SN-specific levels 28. This is consistent with oxidative stress being
the chief source of mutations, since the substantia nigra has an
unusually high level of ROS generation related to the synthesis of
dopamine in the pigmented SN neurons 155.

As shown in 24, 25 and 29, there are narrow regions in some complex I
genes, most notably in ND5 and ND2, where the presence of mutations
correlates very closely with the PD phenotype, and indeed is
sufficient to classify samples as PD or control with good accuracy in
prospective studies (15 out of 16 samples). High predictive value of
these mutations is not inconsistent with them being the prime
determinant of the development of PD. Some of the mutations found in
PD patients at low levels, usually 1 ?C 2 %, have been previously
characterized in classical mitochondrial conditions. Thus the ND5
mutation at codon 145, A12770G, causes a severe childhood neurological
disorder, MELAS, if present at a level of 48 % 156. This is consistent
with the PD-correlated mutations having a gene dosage effect
(analogous to many classical Mendelian disorders, such as
phenylketonuria), where a higher level of the mutation may cause a
severe childhood phenotype and a lower level may cause a late-onset
dysfunction.

The above observations begin to address the major objection to the
mitochondrial theory of aging: the lack of evidence for the presence
of a sufficiently high load of potentially deleterious mutations, in
all humans. The dearth of mutations in previous studies of mtDNA is
due to the methodology used for their detection which lead to
erroneous conclusions, much like reliance on the light microscope
might lead one to deny the existence of viruses.

The low degree of maternal inheritance of age-related diseases is
consistent with two explanations which are not mutually exclusive:
nuclear/environmental contributing factors, versus germline- and
early-acquired mitochondrial mutations. Since the attention of the
scientific community has been so far concentrated on nuclear heredity,
and only tentative explanations for AD, PD and other conditions have
been formulated, we will analyze the other explanation.

As mentioned in section 2.2, mitochondria in germline cells
continuously accumulate mtDNA mutations, and undergo a stringent
culling to remove any cells with high overall mutation loads (which is
responsible for the eventual exhaustion of viable germline cells in
females). Yet, even a very stringent selection is likely to allow a
certain small number of mutated mtDNA genomes to be present in the
ovum. This assertion is backed up by observations in PD, where a
generalized complex I dysfunction is present in all tissues, implying
the presence of relevant mutations from the very earliest stages of
development ?C zygote or earlier. If the responsible mutations arise de
novo in the germline, their transmission will not be detectable by the
observation of matrilineal inheritance.

According to Chinnery et al. 157, the load of mtDNA mutations arising
in a cell may change relatively quickly due to random drift. This
could explain how even a single mutation present among the roughly 200
000 mtDNA copies in an ovum could over time become established at a
measurable level throughout the whole organism.

These observations help address the other objection to the
mitochondrial theory of age-related disease: the modest degree of
matrilineal inheritance of age-related diseases, coupled with specific
rather than generalized dysfunction of the ETC. An outline of the
postulated changes in mtDNA mutation levels in ontogeny is shown in
fig. 1.

The last objection mentioned in the previous section is addressed by a
model of mitochondrial cardiomyopathy where a hypermutable ??
polymerase was targeted to the heart 158. Essentially normal ETC
activities are present in association with severe cell loss, implying
that cellular dysfunction due to microheteroplasmy does not have to
involve an overall ETC activity loss, reconciling the results of
Rasmussen et al. 151 and others with the mitochondrial theory of
aging. Here, it is the accumulation of misinformation (defective
copies of ETC proteins) rather than simple lack of correct information
(wild-type ETC proteins) that leads to damage.  Further research in
this and other models of accelerated accumulation of microheteroplasmy
159 should provide a detailed description of the pathways leading from
increased ROS production to e.g. upregulation of ??-amyloid production
and apoptosis of neurons (fig. 2).

The basic claims of our hypothesis can be encapsulated in the following summary:

1)	Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy, that is, the presence of multiple
mtDNA mutations each present at a low level (usually affecting less
than 2% of mtDNA copies in a tissue but adding to a total mutational
burden of >90%) is a major contributing factor in age-related
pathology, including PD, AD, DM, hypertension, and possibly other
manifestations of aging.
2)	Mechanistically, microheteroplasmy acts through the accumulation of
dysfunctional copies of mitochondrially-encoded ETC subunits, which
leads to increased production of ROS (a form of toxic
gain-of-function), lowered peak ATP production (loss-of-function
mechanism), impaired oxidative phosphorylation, and in turn, to
apoptosis or impairment of cellular function. The abnormalities
secondary to microheteroplasmy include, but are not limited to,
elevated levels of oxysterols, and other oxidized macromolecules,
accumulation of lipofuscin, intra- and extracellular forms of amyloid,
inclusion bodies such as Lewy bodies, insulin resistance, and others.
3)	Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy consists primarily of a combination
of mutations arising in the germline prior to the formation of the
zygote, and mutations accumulating throughout the lifespan of the
individual. There is also a contribution of mutations inherited from
mother, sufficient to explain the existing matrilineal inheritance
levels in age-related disease 160.
4)	Differences in the location and quantity of germline mutations
(focal microheteroplasmy) are at least in part responsible for the
variation in age-related phenotypes, such as for example the
development of PD in some but not all aged individuals 25.
5)	Age-acquired microheteroplasmy and the drift in germline mutation
load are the factors responsible for the delayed onset of age-related
disorders. The phenotypic manifestations of aging in a cell become
apparent after the total microheteroplasmic mutation burden, both
inherited and acquired, crosses a threshold of incompatibility with
normal function.

Thus we expand on the concepts presented by Kraytsberg et al. 41 and
build on the ideas discussed by Dufour and Larsson 159, who described
the mutations described prior to the clone-sequencing mutation surveys
as "the tip of the iceberg". Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy forms its
base.

4.3 Cellular responses to microheteroplasmy

Increased ROS production, which we propose as the most important link
between microheteroplasmy and aging, leads to extensive antioxidant
responses. Within this category we include not only upregulation of
antioxidant enzyme reserve, but also the increased turnover of damaged
DNA, RNA, protein, and lipids, since oxidatively modified cellular
constituents promote further ROS damage 161.  When ROS production
becomes chronic, the very ability to remove damage becomes compromised
161.  Precisely because microheteroplasmy compromises mitochondrial
function, the machinery required to repair and remove damage fails to
import into mitochondria further exacerbating ROS damage 162. These
responses have been exhaustively reviewed elsewhere 163, 164, 165.

The concept of ROS involvement in aging recently received support from
a study showing lifespan extension in mice expressing catalase, an
antioxidant enzyme, in their mitochondria 166. Interestingly,
expression of catalase outside mitochondria (e.g. in the nucleus) did
not result in significant slowing of aging, indicating that
mitochondrial damage may more important, at least as far as
ROS-related mechanisms are considered.

It is known from cybrid studies that the presence of different
mutations in one cell may result sometimes in genetic complementation
167. ROS generation as a form of toxic gain of function is not likely
to allow for complementation between different mutations present in a
single cell, and should instead result in additive or synergistic
effects.

Though direct ROS modifications of cellular constituents are a crucial
mechanism by which mitochondrial microheteroplasmy would affect cell
metabolism, other less salient mechanisms are implicated.  Quite
broadly, we divide these responses into three categories: 1) down
regulation of ETC and OXPHOS; 2) energy switching from oxidative
metabolism to glycolysis; and 3) responses to this metabolic shift
(Fig. 2). We already alluded to these processes in the section on
cancer. Here we discuss some of the genes involved in the cellular
responses to microheteroplasmy in AD, hypertension, and diabetes.

In Alzheimer's disease, several investigators have noted an inverse
correlation between A-beta deposition and ROS generation (for review
see 168).  The fact that A-beta is a potent inhibitor of cytochrome
oxidase (COX) may help explain this phenomenon as well as providing a
salient explanation for the eventual cognitive deficit in familial AD
(FAD)88. In FAD, early and chronic overproduction of A-beta would
decrease COX despite otherwise healthy mitochondria 86, explaining the
loss in synaptic function as mitochondria and mitochondrial access are
necessary for maintaining both the high energy fluxes and Ca2+ demands
of continued synaptic function 169.  In the aging brain burdened by
microheteroplasmy and subsequent mitochondrial dysfunction, A-beta
would actually be protective, by limiting ROS production. Furthermore,
despite decreasing COX, A-beta may preserve an immediate downstream
signal of redox status, namely NAD+/NADH ratio 170, 171 by possibly
shifting redox reactions to the plasma membrane and preserving the
activity of NAD+/NADH sensitive processes such as the sirtuins.
Localized mitochondrial A-beta production may provide the primary
mechanism by which this peptide modulates oxidative metabolism 85,
172. This hypothesis is further supported by the fact that ??0 cells
that lack OXPHOS and are primarily glycolytic are immune from A-beta
toxicity 90, 173.  In fact, A-beta ceases to be toxic in other cells
receiving their energy through glycolysis alone 91.

Another molecule highly sensitive to redox status that may help
regulate ETC function and thus ROS generation is nitric oxide (NO), a
signaling molecule well-known to hypertension researchers.  NO is a
potent regulator of complexes I and IV 174, 175, 176, 177, 178,
possibly through direct nitrosylation.  In fact, nitrosylation of
mitochondrial proteins would preclude direct oxidative modification of
the nitrosylated residues and as shown by 179 can be removed once in
the cytosol and away from the oxidation-rich mitochondrial milieu.  NO
may act not only locally in the cell, but would predictively signal a
hypoxic response necessitating vascular remodeling in order to supply
the increasingly glycolytic tissue with substrates.  NO also acts on
mitochondrial biogenesis 178.

Upregulation of mitochondrial biogenesis may play a role in responses
to microheteroplasmy and ROS. Increased generation of new
mitochondrial components and increased mitochondrial turnover would
reduce the average amount of oxidatively damaged components. This
effect is demonstrated by the therapeutic usage of PPARG, PGC, and NRF
agonists, such as tioglitazone, piogliazone and others, in diabetes.
By acting on the prime controllers of mitobiogenesis these drugs
increase mitochondrial reserve and may prove efficacious in the short
term. However, there is no reason to assume only functionally intact
mitochondria would be replicated and an indiscriminant increase in
both healthy and compromised mitochondria may actually hasten cellular
damage and increased ROS despite supplying sufficient ATP 180.  This
warrants a warning on cellular and animal models of this disease ??
within the context of aged animals with perturbed mitochondria, the
glitazones may 'paradoxically' increase toxicity 181, 182.

4.4 Focal microheteroplasmy 

To explain the patterns of inheritance of age-acquired disease, the
responsible mutations might have the following characteristics; they
are present in the earliest stages of embryonic development, and are
either inherited from the mother, or, predominantly, acquired randomly
during the quiescent stage of oocyte development (lasting usually
between 15 and 45 years). The total number of mutations per oocyte
compatible with maturation of the oocyte (as opposed to oocyte
apoptosis) is very small, perhaps as low as 10 mutated loci per oocyte
out of the roughly 105 genomes present. Every surviving oocyte will
have a different set of mutations, except for occasional mutations
inherited from the mother. Stochastic processes, such as random
accumulation of mutational hits, are likely to produce non-uniform
distributions if the number of hits is small (1 to ~ 30), that is, the
number of mutations in any two compared areas may differ by a large
factor, while as the number of hits increases, mutation numbers in
different areas approach an average, and the distribution becomes
uniform. Therefore, if the number of mutations per oocyte is indeed as
low as postulated above, in many individuals there will be an uneven
distribution along the genome, for example occurring predominantly in
the most crucial areas of complex I genes, or in complex IV genes, or
in other functional units.  During embryogenesis mutated mtDNA will be
inherited by most or all cellular lineages, leading for example to the
observed complex I deficiency in all tissues in PD, but without strong
maternal inheritance or concordance among siblings. These are the
mutations found in cerebral cortex of almost all cases of sporadic PD
examined so far. There is a low level of concordance for PD in
monozygotic twins 183, and this observation is also compatible with
the above mechanism ?C each of the monozygotic twins inherits only half
of ooplasm, and no correlation is likely to exist in the distribution
of mutations in their respective mtDNA complements. Maternally
inherited mutations and mutations accumulated after conception are
insufficient to account for these experimental data.

4.5 Microheteroplasmy in stem cells

We postulate that microheteroplasmy accumulation in tissue-specific
stem cells is the primary cause of the exhaustion of the tissue
renewal capacity in advanced age and that there is a dynamic
equilibrium between cell loss and renewal from stem cells, even in
many so-called postmitotic tissues. Consequently, occasional
dysfunctional cells seen in young patients (e.g. the NFT- or
AGE-bearing neurons in the cortex of healthy young humans 184, 185,
186) would not survive for extended periods of time as previously
assumed, instead they might undergo apoptosis and be replaced by cells
freshly generated from stem cells. The fraction of dysfunctional
differentiated cells in a tissue would be then determined by the
relative abundance of functional stem cells, and the longevity of
their differentiated progeny. Both of these parameters are impacted by
microheteroplasmy: accumulation of microheteroplasmy in stem cells,
such as the mutations observed in human colonic stem cells 187,
reduces their proliferative capacity by oxidative stress-related
mechanisms 3. Differentiated cells generated from progenitors with
accumulated mtDNA mutations start out with a higher mutation burden,
produce more ROS, and may be expected to accumulate deadly levels of
microheteroplasmy after a shorter time. We postulate that the
exhaustion of adult neural stem cells found in the mesencephalon 188
and in the subventricular zone 189 is the specific histopathological
mechanism of the loss of function in PD and AD, respectively. Similar
mechanisms may operate in other tissues. Analysis of microheteroplasmy
in stem cells will allow the quantification of their mitotic potential
and prediction of the course of aging of a tissue.

5. Competing hypotheses

5.1 Relationship to competing hypotheses

Our hypothesis helps reconcile a large body of observations regarding
the inheritance and pathophysiology of age-related diseases which is
not adequately explained by other hypotheses. Most importantly, it
allows us to answer the question posed in the second paragraph of this
article: Why do certain forms of dysfunction, such as AD or diabetes,
arise only at an advanced age?

As discussed before, a molecular clock mechanism must be postulated to
explain this phenomenon. Of all known molecular properties of the
constituents of the human body, microheteroplasmy is the one which
fits the bill most appropriately and in the largest number of
conditions. Existing theories of, for example, AD causation do not
provide an answer this question: the aggregation of ??-amyloid cannot
act as the clock, since it is not a process continuously proceeding
through ontogeny 190, and as noted previously, it is reversible in
animals. Similar objections can be leveled against other explanations
of age-related diseases which rely on protein aggregation, protein
modification, toxic influences, and other processes which do not allow
for extended time-keeping (slow and continuous accumulation of change
over decades).

Regarding disease-specific theories, such as the amyloid hypothesis of
AD, and the insulin resistance hypothesis of DM, the microheteroplasmy
hypothesis aims to incorporate them as descriptions of secondary
events in aging. Neither amyloid accumulation nor insulin resistance
are explained at a causal level by previous hypotheses ?C their
proponents do not provide a description of exactly how these phenomena
are brought about (except in the rare familial cases, where indeed
amyloid mutations or insulin receptor mutations are responsible for
the phenotype). The microheteroplasmy hypothesis describes the
ultimate, physical mechanisms of mtDNA mutations in all aging humans,
and a path from these primary events to the eventual outcomes,
encapsulating these competing narratives in a larger framework.

Mitochondrial microheteroplasmy as the molecular clock of aging fits
very well in the general framework of available knowledge about
pathology of age-related diseases: many of the known causes of
familial, early-onset form of age-related diseases such as PINK1,
DJ-1, parkin, APP, are nuclear genes which have a direct impact on
mitochondria (their products are localized in mitochondria, or cause
oxidative stress by interfering in protein degradation). Their
pathogenic mutations may act to accelerate the accumulation of the
age-related component of microheteroplasmy, or reduce the cell's
ability to cope with the metabolic derangements caused by it. For
example, it is known that wild-type APP is protective against
apoptosis 191. It localizes to mitochondria and interacts with
elements of stress response systems, such as ABAD 192. Mutated forms
of APP are less effective at this task, in part due to shifted
patterns of proteolytic processing 193. The diminished protective
activity of APP results in an earlier onset of cellular loss, leading
to an earlier age of onset in familial forms of AD.

Most of the processes which are observed in aging, such as
inflammation, autoimmunity, protein aggregation, insulin resistance,
and others, may represent adaptive or maladaptive responses to
mitochondrial dysfunction, and as such remain viable and important
research themes 194. Some of them, such as inappropriate inflammation
may through the generation of ROS contribute to the acceleration of
aging.

Microheteroplasmy is consistent with the observed relationship between
the degree of maternal inheritance for a mitochondrial condition, and
the age of onset: the conditions with the earliest age of onset tend
to have a clear matrilineal inheritance and are due to inherited
homoplasmic or high-level heteroplasmic mutations, conditions with a
later age of onset such as PD have a lower degree of matrilineal
inheritance, and are due to a combination of inherited, germline, and
acquired mutations. Different diseases may vary in the exact
contribution of inherited and age acquired microheteroplasmy necessary
to evoke the phenotype. The same phenotype may appear at an earlier
age if the causative mutation is present at higher level, or at a
later age with lower levels ?C such relationship is observed in MIDD
pedigrees with the MELAS A3243G mutation 50.

Microheteroplasmy may act in concert with inherited nuclear gene
mutations and environmental insults to further modulate the pace and
phenotype of aging. Thus, changes such as the ApoE mutations may
modulate the resistance to mitochondrial dysfunction in AD 195, and
exposure to HAART or pesticides may accelerate the development of AD
or PD pathology 69, 74.

Accumulation of change in the nuclear genome is a well-established
hypothesis of aging. The shortening of telomeres 196, mutations in
oncogenes 197, mutations in the promoters of some nuclear genes
involved in mitochondrial metabolism 198, have all been shown to occur
in aging. Their involvement in cancer and perhaps cellular senescence
(the loss of mitotic potential in culture after many passages) appears
to be supported be a large body of evidence. At present there are
insufficient data to determine the relative importance of these types
of somatic genetic change versus microheteroplasmy, but at least in
PD, microheteroplasmy is sufficient for classification of patient
samples 29, and we postulate that this is the dominant influence.
Indeed, the mechanism by which microheteroplasmy may lead, through
increased ROS production and diminished ETC activity, to the
observable and universally present features of aging, such as
apoptosis 199, failure of stem cell renewal 3, accelerated telomere
attrition 127, accelerated nuclear gene mutation 198, have been
outlined in some detail, while as noted before, nuclear genome somatic
mutations have been tied mostly to neoplasia. Therefore, we would
venture that microheteroplasmy is more important in aging.

It is likely that some features of aging may result from processes
independent of DNA ?C for example, from accumulation of advanced
glycation end-products in avascular tissues with very slow protein
turnover and from other possible primary processes 200, or processes
at the tissue and organ level. More research will be needed to
elucidate their relative impact.

5.2 Unresolved issues

The relative importance of microheteroplasmy vs. large deletions
present at low levels (up to 20%) is unclear. Clearly, both forms of
acquired mutational burden are present in tissues and play a role 201.

The question of how much the accumulation of microheteroplasmy is
accelerated by the ROS generated as a result of microheteroplasmy
(which would form a vicious circle of mutation and ROS generation) is
not answered by the data we review here. While there are indications
that ROS do contribute to mtDNA mutational load 202, 203, this process
does not in our opinion represent the central premise of the
mitochondrial hypothesis of aging, as stated in 65 . The crux of the
mitochondrial hypothesis of aging is mtDNA as a clock, not the
(perhaps varied) processes accelerating or decelerating its movement.

Alternatives to ROS as the link between mtDNA mutations and aging
cannot be excluded at this point, as shown by the hypermutable ??
polymerase mouse model where cardiomyopathy is observed in the absence
of elevated ROS production 204. This model is in some ways different
from microheteroplasmy accumulation in regular aging, since the
defective enzyme is activated at birth, only in the heart, and leads
to detectable increases in deletion levels in one week and to dilated
cardiomyopathy with microheteroplasmic mutation levels of 140 per
million bp in four weeks 52. Additionally, cardiomyopathy can in these
animals be prevented by the administration of cyclosporin A and is
associated with vigorous antiapoptotic activity 205. Given that the
microheteroplasmy accumulation in the aging human occurs over a period
two orders of magnitude longer and age-related cardiac dysfunction is
not remediable with cyclosporin A, this mouse model may fail to
capture important physiological features, such as the elevations of
ROS production and the predominantly pro-apoptotic state observed in
cybrids from aged and AD humans 206. Additional research is needed,
especially involving models without tissue specificity and with
mutation accumulation rates closer to physiological.

Phenotypic threshold is the level of heteroplasmy above which an
abnormal phenotype becomes apparent. It is unclear what is the
phenotypic threshold of microheteroplasmy, although it is most likely
not substantially higher than the levels of about 200 to 250 mutations
per million bases found in the substantia nigra 28, since there
appears to be a plateau of accumulation not exceeded even in the
oldest samples. It is also likely that the threshold differs between
various cell types, giving rise to the graded appearance of aging
changes in various organs.

A related question pertains to the apparent absence of effective
mechanisms of mtDNA damage repair. Why is the accumulation of
mutations in mtDNA not better controlled by appropriate homeostatic
mechanisms, given the postulated major impact of these mutations on
health and longevity? One of the answers to this questions is
suggested by the "disposable soma" theory 207. Accordingly, the
energetic cost of more effective mtDNA repair mechanisms sufficient to
delay aging would reduce the resources available for procreation, and
reduce fertility in young age. In the environment of evolutionary
adaptiveness most humans died of causes unrelated to aging, such as
infection, predation, homicide and accidents, well before being able
to benefit from  delayed aging and prolonged fertility, therefore a
reduction in early fertility would decrease overall fitness and would
be selected against. A detailed analysis of the energetic costs of
mtDNA repair would be needed to address this issue.

Another issue is the question of possible replicative advantage of
mutated vs. wild-type mtDNA, and the resulting clonal expansion of
mutations within individual cells. Some research shows a possible
replicative advantage for defective mtDNA 208 and this process was
proposed as the basis for a modified mitochondrial theory of aging
209. Results of clonal sequencing of mtDNA from single neurons and
glia 27 seem to be more consistent with the absence of replicative
advantage for deleterious microheteroplasmic mutations, since most
mutations were found at low levels in each cell, rather than the
near-homoplasmic levels predicted by this hypothesis, however, the
data appear to be still insufficient to resolve this very complex
issue.

Finally, if microheteroplasmy is involved in cancer development, then
the absence of increased frequency of cancer in models of mtDNA
dysfunction would need to be explained. Classical mitochondrial
conditions are not associated with notable increases in cancer. It is
possible that the early mortality in these conditions prevents
patients from accumulating the nuclear mutations needed for neoplasia.

6. Predictions of the microheteroplasmic mitochondrial theory of aging

A hypothesis without testable predictions would be incomplete. What
follows is a number of corollaries of our main claims from section

6.1 Age-related diseases

1)	The microheteroplasmic mutations correlated to PD (focal
microheteroplasmy 25) will turn out to consist primarily of mutations
arising in the germline de novo, prior to conception, with some
contribution from maternally-inherited mutations (mutations present in
mother before differentiation of oocytes). Identical sets of focal
microheteroplasmic mutations will be found in all tissues of each
patient, while the age-acquired mutations (which do not correlate with
PD or other specific manifestations of aging) will differ between
somatic cells of various lineages from the same patient. There will be
some differences between patterns of focal microheteroplasmy in
different PD patients but a substantial overlap will exist as well.
These regularities will be detectable by clonal sequencing of cells
and tissues from PD patients, and to a lesser extent in their maternal
relatives, and offspring.
2)	Since in AD there is a focal ETC dysfunction transmissible through
mtDNA, in direct analogy to PD, we postulate that in AD there is also
focal microheteroplasmy. There are narrow regions in mtDNA where an
increased mutational burden will correlate with AD. The relevant
regions are most likely to be found in the three mitochondrial complex
IV genes, although other focal microheteroplasmic regions, e.g. in
tRNA genes, are also possible. Clonal sequencing (but not direct PCR
sequencing) aided by data analysis methods outlined in 25 will detect
these mutations in all tissues and may be sufficient for DNA-based
diagnosis and prognosis.
3)	Since there is a fair level of maternal inheritance in DM, and
hypertension, as well as clear evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction
in the sporadic forms of these diseases, we postulate that there is
focal microheteroplasmy specific for these conditions, in addition to
the already mapped disease-correlated mutations such as the MELAS
mutation. Since there is no evidence for the specific involvement of
particular elements the ETC, at present we cannot predict the exact
location of these mutations.
4)	Mutations from the regions of focal microheteroplasmy will have
much more serious phenotypic effects than other microheteroplasmic
mutations, or homoplasmic pathogenic mutations. While some homoplasmic
mutations are compatible with survival of the ovum and prolonged
post-natal survival, the PD or AD-related microheteroplasmic mutations
will be likely to cause severe early pathology or death if present at
or near homoplasmy.
5)	Analysis of cybrids from patients with PD, AD, DM, hypertension,
and possibly other specific aging phenotypes will detect focal
microheteroplasmy

6.2 Normal aging

1)	The accumulation rate of microheteroplasmy is modulated by the
levels of ROS production. In caloric restriction, with its observed
reduced ROS production and slowing of aging, there will be slowing of
microheteroplasmy accumulation as well.
2)	If microheteroplasmy accumulation in tissue-specific stem cells is
the primary cause of the exhaustion of the tissue renewal capacity in
advanced age, then analysis of microheteroplasmy in stem cells will
allow the quantification of their mitotic potential and prediction of
the course of aging of a tissue.
3)	Menopause is due to microheteroplasmy in the germline. With aging,
the fraction of ova with faulty mtDNA will increase. Certain
chromosomal abnormalities, such as trisomy 21, will be shown to
protect the ovum from microheteroplasmy-induced apoptosis, which will
explain why these abnormalities are more common in ova from older
women (where microheteroplasmy is more severe). Many of the phenotypic
features of Down's syndrome, especially the accumulation of amyloid at
an early age 210, will be shown to derive from the increased level of
microheteroplasmy inherited thanks to the interference of trisomy with
ovum apoptosis, rather than to direct gene dosage effects from the
trisomic chromosome.
4)	Replacement of mitochondrial genomes in cultured cells 211, by
combining nuclear and mitochondrial DNA of various ages, will
delineate the relative contributions of nuclear vs. mtDNA to the
symptoms of aging.

6.3 Therapeutic opportunity

1)	Therapeutic interventions targeted towards some secondary responses
to microheteroplasmy may be harmful: This is most likely the case with
removal of amyloid in sporadic AD (although the same intervention may
be beneficial in FAD, where microheteroplasmy does not play a leading
role), and possibly in stimulation of mitobiogenesis in diabetes,
which may lead to acceleration of mtDNA attrition even as short-term
improvements in insulin resistance are observed
2)	Replacement of mitochondrial genomes will reverse many symptoms of aging.

7. Conclusion - All roads lead to Rho (??)

Microheteroplasmy is orders of magnitude more common than most of
forms of mutational burden examined so far, making it the likeliest
candidate for the substrate of aging. Our hypothesis builds a bridge
from the known causes of mtDNA mutation, through their immediate
effects, to the observed final outcomes of aging, placing the specific
features of aging, such as protein aggregation, in a larger
biochemical framework. The hypothesis also explains the inheritance
patterns and the delay in the onset of aging. Most importantly, our
hypothesis reconciles the two fundamental aspects of aging -
information and energy loss, by relating them to the unique cellular
component, mitochondrial DNA.

8. Acknowledgements

We would like to thank Drs. James Bennett, Russell Swerdlow and Aubrey
de Grey for comments and valuable suggestions that greatly helped in
our work.

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Figure legends:

Fig.1 MtDNA mutation accumulation throughout ontogeny. Wild-type mtDNA
is shown in green, mutations inherited from maternal somatic
precursors in red, mutations acquired in the germline in blue,
mutations acquired from embryonic to adult life in purple. Maternal
mutations may appear in multiple oocytes and may be shared between
siblings. Germline-acquired mutations are not shared between siblings.
Post-conception mutations accumulate progressively in stem cells
during aging, reducing the functional reserve of differentiated cells
generated later in life. ROS generation plays a role in oocyte
selection, depletion of stem cells, and shortened survival of
differentiated cells.

Fig.2 An outline of the mechanism of microheteroplasmy in aging. The
initial event of mtDNA mutation results in ROS generation, which leads
to direct damage to lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids, including
mtDNA. Adaptive and maladaptive responses of the cell ensue, here the
processes most relevant to AD are highlighted. OXPHOS suppression by
A-beta acting on ABAD reduces the magnitude of ROS overproduction but
eventually limits energy production in the cell, leading to
accumulation of abnormal proteins and oxidized lipids. Finally,
mitochondrial dysfunction leads to apoptosis.
Fig.1 

 
 
Fig.2


From sentience at pobox.com  Thu Jun 16 21:10:53 2005
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:10:53 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] The athymhormic AI
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc605061522424089c4a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7641ddc605061522424089c4a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42B1EADD.5000700@pobox.com>

Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> 
> I think that athymhormic humans point to the possibility of building
> an inference engine with interest in a predictive understanding of the
> world, to be achieved using computational resources given to it,
> without a desire to achieve anything else. Note how simple this goal
> architecture would be - "Predict future inputs based on current and
> past inputs using hardware you are installed on".

Why yes, that is a comparatively simple utility function, though there are 
still many parameters you haven't specified, and you would still need to solve 
the grand challenge of preserving a simple utility function through recursive 
self-improvement.

Your mistake is in presuming that this simple utility function doesn't 
overwrite the Solar System.

Even if we presume that "hardware you are installed on" is defined in such way 
as to preclude the "use" of "other" hardware (though particles are 
quantum-mechanically interchangeable, and it is nontrivial to define what it 
means to "use" something), this AI still converts the Solar System into a 
maximally predictable form in order to maximize its expected utility.

Oops!

No, you don't get a chance to amend your definition.  The human species is 
already dead.

You need to learn how to poke holes in your own definition, not wait for me to 
do it.  Hopefully after you've been through around 10 cycles of "Try X... 
wait, that won't work," then you'll begin to see why this is a Problem.

Also you don't know how to define "use", or "hardware", or define "input" in a 
way that survives recursive self-improvement by the AI that may include 
changes of sensory architecture or sensory mechanisms.

> There would be no
> need for defining friendliness to humans, which, as you very well
> know, is not easy.

90% of the problems in Friendly AI are problems you need to solve whether the 
programmer's goal is friendliness or knowably converting the solar system into 
paperclips, such as "preserve a goal system through recursive 
self-improvement", "bind the cognitive utility function describing paperclips 
to physical paperclips as its referent", and "make AI".  Might as well spend 
that extra 10% of effort to make the AI friendly for some reasonable 
conception of friendliness.

> A simpler concepts, such as "current hardware base"
> would be initially sufficient to define the limitations necessary to
> protect the environment from being converted into computing substrate.

Yeah?  Go ahead.  Define it formally.  I want to see the math.

> By the time the athymhormic AI was powerful enough to form goals of
> its own, the knowledge we gained from it would be already enough to
> bootstrap ourselves into being smart, for a change.

Why?  This seems to me like pure wishful thinking.  "Powerful enough to form 
goals of its own?"  This makes no sense.  Since when are utility functions a 
function of computing power?  And what difference does it make whether the 
goals are "its own" or "ours" if either way the Solar System is overwritten by 
something uninteresting?  And what on *Earth* makes you think that 200Hz 
humans can improve themselves faster than an AI rewriting its own source code?

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Jun 16 21:58:07 2005
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:58:07 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~
Message-ID: <00a201c572be$7e0f45d0$0300a8c0@Nano>

The Nanogirl News
June 16, 2005

Scientists unveil 'clay' robots that will shape our world. TINY robots that can turn into any shape - from a replica human to a banana to a mobile phone - are being developed by scientists in the United States. The new science of claytronics, which will use nanotechnology to create tiny robots called catoms, should enable three-dimensional copies of people to be "faxed" around the world for virtual meetings. A doctor could also consult with a patient over the phone, even taking their pulse by holding the wrist of the claytronic replica, reports New Scientist. 
(Scotsman 6/9/05)  http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=632012005

Nano World: Nano for stem-cell research. Cutting-edge nanotechnology is beginning to help advance the equally pioneering field of stem-cell research, with devices that can precisely control stem cells and provide self-assembling biodegradable scaffolds and magnetic tracking systems, experts told UPI's Nano World. "Nanotechnology might show people once and for all that you really can help regenerate organs with stem-cell biology and help people walk again, help people after heart attacks, help people after stroke," said John Kessler, a neurologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill. (World Peace Herald 6/13/05) http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050613-112055-9237r

Scientists Fret over nanotech breakthrough. A breakthrough in nanotechnology has enabled doctors accurately to measure the levels of crucial chemicals in living brain cells in real time and at the level of a single cell. Scientists at Stanford University and the Carnegie Institution's Department of Plant Biology claim to be the first successfully to apply genetic nanotechnology using molecular sensors to view changes in brain chemical levels. (Computing 5/31/05) http://www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/news/2137318/scientists-fret-nanotech-breakthrough

Quantum dots prove to be a faster, more sensitive method for detecting respiratory viral infections. In what may be one of the first medical uses of nanotechnology, a chemist and a doctor who specializes in infectious childhood diseases have joined forces to create an early detection method for a respiratory virus that is the most common cause of hospitalization among children under five. (Exploration 6/9/05) http://exploration.vanderbilt.edu/news/news_quantum.htm

UCI scientists use nanotechnology to create world's fastest method for transmitting information in cell phones and computers. UC Irvine scientists in The Henry Samueli School of Engineering have demonstrated for the first time that carbon nanotubes can route electrical signals on a chip faster than traditional copper or aluminum wires, at speeds of up to 10 GHz. The breakthrough could lead to faster and more efficient computers, and improved wireless network and cellular phone systems, adding to the growing enthusiasm about nanotechnology's revolutionary potential. (UCI 6/9/05) http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1337

MIT's Nanoprinter Could Mass-produce Nano-devices. Just as the printing press revolutionized the creation of reading matter, a "nano-printing" technique developed at MIT could enable the mass production of nano-devices currently built one at a time. The most immediate candidate for this innovation is the DNA microarray, a nano-device used to diagnose and understand genetic illnesses such as Alzheimer's, viral illnesses such as AIDS, and certain types of cancer. The ability to mass produce these complex devices would make DNA analysis as common and inexpensive as blood testing, and thus greatly accelerate efforts to discover the origins of disease. (Sciencedaily 6/9/05)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050608054226.htm

Nanoparticles transport cancer-killing drug into tumor cells to increase efficacy, lower drug toxicity in mice. U-M scientists use folic acid as bait to get methotrexate inside tumor cells. University of Michigan scientists have created the nanotechnology equivalent of a Trojan horse to smuggle a powerful chemotherapeutic drug inside tumor cells - increasing the drug's cancer-killing activity and reducing its toxic side effects..."This is the first study to demonstrate a nanoparticle-targeted drug actually leaving the bloodstream, being concentrated in cancer cells, and having a biological effect on the animal's tumor," says James R. Baker Jr., M.D., the Ruth Dow Doan Professor of Biologic Nanotechnology at the University of Michigan, who directed the study. (UMHS 6/15/05) http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/nanoparticles.htm

Commissioner responds to children's nano questions. EU Science and Research Commissioner Janez Potocnik answered questions from children on nanotechnology when he visited the nanoTruck in Brussels on 15 June. A German initiative, the nanoTruck is a mobile science theme park exhibiting some of the latest science and technology at the nano dimension in a variety of disciplines. Inside the truck are magnetic fluids, measuring instruments that make atoms visible, and scratch-proof coatings for cars. The organizers encourage visitors try out the exhibits themselves, making it an ideal place to introduce the younger generation to the wonders of nanoscience and nanotechnology. 
(Cordis 6/16/05) http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?CALLER=NHP_EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=EN_RCN_ID:23992

Good news about saliva or "spit". Dr. Wong, who also leads UCLA's Dental Research Institute, described the latest in saliva diagnostic research to attendees at the American Dental Association's National Media Conference, held here today. "We have developed highly specific, nanotechnology-based biosensors (ultra tiny machines that read the simplest cell structure), which will permit the detection of disease-bearing biomarkers in saliva," said Dr. Wong. Scientists have long recognized that saliva contains the full complement of proteins, hormones, antibodies and other molecular substances frequently measured in standard blood tests to monitor health and disease, he explained. (myDNA 6/9/05) http://www.mydna.com/resources/news/200506/news_20050609_spit.html

NCL to go into labs with 'Golden Triangle' for cancer trials. EIGHT months after raising hopes with their cutting edge 'Golden Triangle' technology for fighting cancer sans chemotherapy, nanoscientists at the National Chemical Laboratory (NCL) are gearing up for the technology's first in-vitro tests. Murali Sastry, head, Nanoscience Group at NCL, said the in-vitro (laboratory) tests would be conducted on cancerous cells in a month's time at the Tata's Advanced Centre for Treatment, Research and Education in Cancer (ACTREC) in Navi Mumbai...The trials are being conducted to establish the toxicity of the gold nano-particles. ''While gold is inherently non-toxic, we have to see exactly where the nano-sized triangles go when introduced into the cancerous area. We have kept a two-year window to see if we can get into clinical trials on humans.'' 
(Allheadline News 5/31/05) http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=131718

World's most precise "hard x-ray" nanoprobe activated. Marking a major step forward in using x-rays to study extremely small structures and phenomena, the world's first "hard x-ray" nanoprobe beamline was activated on March 15, 2005. The unique nanoprobe is one of the featured instruments at the new Center for Nanoscale Materials (CNM), a U.S. Department of Energy user research facility located at Argonne National Laboratory, about 25 miles west of Chicago. CNM researchers expect to soon be using the x-ray nanoprobe to study individual atoms, molecules, and the unique physical interactions that occur at the nanoscale, where features are measured in nanometers, or billionths of a meter (a nanometer is 70,000 times smaller than the width of a human hair). (Nanoapex 5/30/05)
http://news.nanoapex.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5650

Thin films of silicon nanoparticles roll into flexible nanotubes. By depositing nanoparticles onto a charged surface, researchers at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have crafted nanotubes from silicon that are flexible and nearly as soft as rubber. "Resembling miniature scrolls, the nanotubes could prove useful as catalysts, guided laser cavities and nanorobots," said Sahraoui Chaieb, a professor of mechanical and industrial engineering at Illinois and a researcher at the Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology. (Eurekalert 6/14/05)
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-06/uoia-tfo061405.php

China tops the world in nano-papers. News from the 2005 China International Conference on Nanoscience and Technology (China Nano 2005) held on June 9 says that by December 2004 China has had more than 800 companies engaged in trade in nano-technology and about a hundred nano-technology research institutes. More than ten projects such as for making Li cells, solar cells, textiles and environment-friendly interior paints have been commercialized. (People's Daily Online 6/10/05)
http://english.people.com.cn/200506/10/eng20050610_189642.html 

Nanotechnology's Environmental, Health, and Safety Risks Can Be Addressed Responsibly Today. Stakeholders ranging from corporations to start-ups to protest groups are concerned about the environmental, health, and safety (EHS) risks of nanoparticles -- the prospect that tiny, engineered particles of matter might harm workers, consumers or the environment. While such EHS risks do exist, they can be appropriately addressed today using well-established risk management techniques, according to a new report from Lux Research entitled "A Prudent Approach to Nanotech Environmental, Health, and Safety Risks." (Yahoo 6/15/05) http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050615/nyw071.html?.v=11
 
When Nanopants Attack. On a chilly Chicago afternoon in early May, environmental activists sauntered into the Eddie Bauer store on Michigan Avenue, headed to the broad storefront windows opening out on the Magnificent Mile. Activists hoped to lay bare growing allegations of the toxic dangers of nanotechnology. The demonstrators bore the message in slogans painted on their bodies, proclaiming "Eddie Bauer hazard" and "Expose the truth about nanotech," among other things, in light of the clothing company's embrace of nanotech in its recent line of stain-resistant "nanopants." (Wired 6/16/05) http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,67626,00.html?tw=wn_12techhead

Brush up on your nanotechnology. The world's smallest brushes, with bristles more than a thousand times finer than a human hair, have been created by researchers in the US. The brushes can be used for sweeping up nano-dust, painting microstructures and even cleaning up pollutants in water. The bristles' secret is carbon nanotubes, tiny straw-like molecules just 30 billionths of a metre across. They are incredibly tough and yet flexible enough that they will yield when pushed from the side. The researchers behind the brushes were led from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. Their work is reported in the journal Nature Materials. (BBC 6/12/05) 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4085214.stm

'Emerging Sectors' maps new type of summer camp. What will your kids tell classmates they did this summer? Attend soccer camp? Swim at the pool? Study nanotechnology? Instructors at Oakland Schools hope the response will be the latter as the school system is modeling much of its summer enrichment programs after the county's Emerging Sectors initiative. The curriculum received praise from government officials and industry leaders, who say getting technology training into youngsters' hands is essential in creating tomorrow's high-skilled workforce. 
(mlive 6/16/05)  http://www.mlive.com/mbusinessreview/stories/index.ssf?/mbusinessreview/oak/stories/20050616_emerging.html

Does 10% = Halfway? To "maximize the potential and minimize the risks" of nanotechnology, DuPont CEO Chad Holliday and Environmental Defense (ED) President Fred Krupp are calling for "increased risk research, improved regulatory oversight, proactive corporate management standards, and broad stakeholder engagement." Given potential liability and market risks, industry, universities, government and public interest groups should collaborate to determine what testing is necessary for new nanoproducts. Businesses then should conduct the needed testing before new products enter commercial use. . . A collaborative effort could set interim standards for nanotechnology around the world while regulations are under development. (CRN blog 6/15/05) http://crnano.typepad.com/crnblog/2005/06/does_10_halfway.html



Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From hal at finney.org  Thu Jun 16 21:29:34 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Accelerando available for download
Message-ID: <20050616212934.C2A2E57E8C@finney.org>

Charlie Stross's new novel Accelerando, which incorporates some of his
multiple award-winning shorter work, is now available for download as a
free e-book from www.accelerando.org.  I'm surprised, I had pre-ordered
it from Amazon but that's not going to come for several weeks yet...
Guess I'll read it now, why wait?  And then, what about the pre-order?

Hal


From mike99 at lascruces.com  Thu Jun 16 22:19:03 2005
From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:19:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] BOOK REVIEW: Damien Broderick's GODPLAYERS -- A
	review by Rich Horton
Message-ID: <DAEGJDAIEMCEKLOPODAKIEBIEPAA.mike99@lascruces.com>

http://www.sfsite.com/06b/gp202.htm

Godplayers

Damien Broderick

Thunder's Mouth Press, 328 pages

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


Damien Broderick Bio:
Some consider Damien Broderick to be Australia's premier SF novelist. He is
the author of many non-fiction books on science, technology, and culture. He
grew up in Reservoir, attended a seminary for a while and spent a fair bit
of time at Monash University. Assorted careers -- including computer
programming and editing a national magazine -- led him to writing. His works
include The Judas Mandala and The Dreaming Dragons.
ISFDB Bibliography
SF Site Review: Transcension
SF Site Review: Not the Only Planet
SF Site Review: The White Abacus



 A review by Rich Horton




Damien Broderick is an Australian (now resident in Texas) who has published
a number of well-regarded SF novels (such as The White Abacus), but who has
not quite established a popular reputation. He is also a justly respected
critic. I don't want to predict that Godplayers will be the book that will
take off commercially -- there's no predicting such things. But it wouldn't
surprise me -- this is an extremely energetic and engaging novel, one in
which the author is obviously having fun, and just as obviously a work by a
writer who knows and loves the field. (As his afterword explicitly notes.)

The main action of the novel follows a young man from Australia named August
Seebeck. His parents disappeared, presumed dead, when he was a boy, and he
was raised by relatives, in particular his Aunt Miriam and later his
Great-Aunt Tansy. He comes home to Tansy's house after herding cattle in the
outback, to find that she claims dead bodies have been showing up in her
bathtub. She's a bit dotty, and works as a psychic, so he tends to discount
this, and goes to wash up. And naturally a dead body shows up soon after,
carried through the mirror by two women, one of whom, Lune, is sufficiently
beautiful that August is drastically smitten despite the unfortunate
circumstances of their meeting. Especially when he notices that she has the
same curious metallic design in her foot that he has. But Lune and her
companion inform him that they will have to wipe his memory, and out comes
the "green ray"...

Mysteriously, the memory wipe doesn't stick. Quickly August is involved in
some very strange doings indeed. He tries to follow the mysterious women
through the mirror, and in very rapid order indeed he is jumping from
universe to universe. It soon comes clear that August is part of a family he
has not suspected (the other members have significant names like Maybelline,
and Juni, and Marchmain... see the pattern?), and that the family is engaged
in something called the Contest of Worlds.

And so the novel goes, recomplicating again and again, as August desperately
tries to make sense of things, to find his Aunt Tansy, and to learn the
secret behind his new family and his parents' disappearance. He's also
trying to forge a relationship with the beautiful Lune (one that develops
perhaps just a bit implausibly quickly). In the process we visit numerous
parallel worlds, and several different "levels" of the universe -- mostly
based on real (if perhaps not precisely mainstream) physical theories. It's
all great fun, very fast moving, clever stuff.

The afterword mentions as influences Fritz Leiber and Roger Zelazny.
"Destiny Times Three" is the Leiber story Broderick mentions, while the
obvious Zelazny parallel is Amber. And indeed the novel recalls those
writers a bit, as well as perhaps Charles Stross' new series that has also
been compared to Amber, The Merchant Princes. But Broderick's work is not
simply hommage, nor is it derivative -- it is original SF that happily nods
to its precursors. And it is, put simply, purely fun, and at the same time
intriguing speculative SF.


Copyright ? 2005 Rich Horton
Rich Horton is an eclectic reader in and out of the SF and fantasy genres.
He's been reading SF since before the Golden Age (that is, since before he
was 13). Born in Naperville, IL, he lives and works (as a Software Engineer
for the proverbial Major Aerospace Company) in St. Louis area and is a
regular contributor to Tangent. Stop by his website at
http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton.





From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Jun 16 22:46:43 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:46:43 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
Message-ID: <42B20153.3080804@mindspring.com>

[Note: Unknown if this is of interest to people on the lists, gives subscription
information at the end.  -Terry]


Jonathan's Space Report
No. 548                                            2005 Jun 15,  
Somerville, MA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Space Station
-------------

Discovery was rolled back out to the pad on Jun 15 with its new
ET-121 external tank and RSRM-92 solid boosters. Launch is scheduled
for July.

NOAA 18
-------

A new NOAA POES (Polar Orbiting Environmental Satellite) weather
satellite was launched on May 20 at 1022 UTC. The 1442 kg NOAA-N
satellite, built by Lockheed Martin using the Advanced Tiros-N bus,
became NOAA 18 after reaching orbit. NOAA, the National Oceanographic
and Atmospheric Administration, is the US weather agency. Earlier NOAA
satellites were launched by surplus Atlas E and Titan II missiles, but
these have now been retired and so a Boeing Delta 7320 was used for this
mission. The satellite entered a 846 x 866 km x 98.8 deg orbit. It
carries weather imagers, microwave sensors, particle detectors, an
infrared sounder, and the SARSAT-10 search and rescue transponder.


DirecTV 8
---------

DirecTV 8 was launched on May 22 by International Launch Services aboard
a Krunichev Proton-M/Briz-M from Baykonur. The satellite carries Ka-band
and Ku-band communications payloads for US domestic television
broadcasting. By June 2, DirecTV 8 was in a 35772 x 35792 km x 0.1 deg
orbit drifting over 102.9W towards its 101W location where it will
join DirecTV 1/1R, 2, and 4S.

DirecTV satellites launched so far:
  DirecTV 1   1993 Dec 18   Hughes HS-601          GEO 101.1W
  DirecTV 2   1994 Aug  3   Hughes HS-601          GEO 100.8W
  DirecTV 3   1995 Jun 10   Hughes HS-601          GEO  91.1W
  DirecTV 6   1997 Apr  7   Loral LS-1300          GEO 109.8W
  DirecTV 1R  1999 Nov  9   Hughes HS-601HP        GEO 100.9W
  DirecTV 4S  2001 Nov 27   Boeing BSS-601HP       GEO 101.1W
  DirecTV 5   2002 May  7   Loral LS-1300          GEO  72.5W
  DirecTV 7S  2004 May  4   Loral LS-1300          GEO 119.1W
  DirecTV 8   2005 May 22   Loral LS-1300          GEO 102.9W drifting

DirecTV also owns the Spaceway 1 satellite launched in April, now
in a 28255 x 43325 km x 0.2 deg orbit. It reached a 26062 x 45473 km
orbit with 24 hr period on May 11 and since then has been making small
maneuvers to decrease eccentricity, possibly using its XIPS-25 electric
propulsion system.

Foton
-----

The second Foton-M satellite was launched on May 31. The Foton
satellites, built by TsSKB-Progress in Samara, are modified versions of
the Vostok/Zenit design and have a recoverable spherical pressurized
module used for microgravity and life science experiments. A lot of the
capacity on this flight is taken up with European Space Agency
experiments, including an exterior 2 kg reentry capsule called Fotino
which will separate during reentry on Jun 16 and  land uprange.

This is the first Foton launch from Baykonur and it entered a 258 x 291
km x 63.0 deg orbit. The first 12 Foton satellites were launched from
Plesetsk into more eccentric 215 x 350-390 km x 62.8 deg orbits;  they
were followed by launch of Foton-M No. 1 from Plesetsk on 2002 Oct 15,
which failed seconds after launch falling back on the pad and causing
one fatality.


HAMSAT
------

AMSAT-VU's HAMSAT has been assigned an international OSCAR amateur  
satellite number: it is VO-52 (VUSat-Oscar 52). (AMSAT-VU is the Indian
branch of AMSAT, and VU is the international amateur callsign prefix for India.)

Cassini
-------

Cassini made another pass through the inner Saturnian system on Jun 8
with a 156400 km periapsis at 1037 UTC. On this pass, there were distant
encounters with the small moons Calypso (Saturn XIV) and Pallene (Saturn  
XXIII).
Cassini has already made a lot of close approaches to Saturnian moons,
not all of which involved science observations.

Here are Saturnian moon encounters to date within 120000 km (for
non-science encounters, I calculated the approaches from JPL Horizons,
and these may be off by 20000 km or more because of inconsistent
trajectory data - best I can do right now. Horizons doesn't have any
Pallene ephemeris data so I don't know how close that approach was, and
for the same reason I don't have a time for the Polydeuces pass.)

Encounter time UTC  Moon      Height above surface

1979 Sep  1 1452    Janus         2500 km  Pioneer-11
1979 Sep  1 1620    Mimas       103000 km  Pioneer-11
1980 Nov 12 0540    Titan         3915 km  Voyager-1
1980 Nov 12 0621    Rhea         73216 km  Voyager-1
1980 Nov 13 0142    Mimas        88231 km  Voyager-1
1981 Aug 26 0345?   Enceladus    86754 km  Voyager-2
1981 Aug 26 0612?   Tethys       92474 km  Voyager-2

Cassini

2004 Jun 11 1903    Phoebe        2068 km
2004 Jun 30 2227    Calypso      52080 km
2004 Jul  1 0031    Mimas        76400 km
2004 Jul  1 0117    Pandora      89850 km
2004 Jul  1 0152    Janus        67800 km
2004 Jul  1 0358    Prometheus  107400 km
2004 Oct 26 1530    Titan         1174 km  Ta
2004 Dec 13 1138    Titan         1200 km  Tb
2004 Dec 15 0144    Dione        72500 km
2004 Dec 15 0501    Mimas       107500 km
2005 Jan  1 0137    Iapetus     123400 km
2005 Jan 14 1112    Titan        60000 km  Tc
2005 Jan 16 0608    Mimas       108000 km
2005 Feb 15 0658    Titan         1577 km  T3
2005 Feb 16 2304    Pandora     102600 km
2005 Feb 17         Polydeuces    6189 km
2005 Feb 17 0011    Epimetheus   73500 km
2005 Feb 17 0024    Atlas         6170 km
2005 Feb 17 0330    Enceladus     1176 km  E03
2005 Mar  9 0434    Helene       74500 km
2005 Mar  9 0908    Enceladus      504 km  E04
2005 Mar  9 1129    Atlas        73800 km
2005 Mar  9 1155    Tethys       82500 km
2005 Mar 29 1847    Tethys      109200 km
2005 Mar 29 2034    Enceladus    55600 km
2005 Mar 29 2202    Atlas        97400 km
2005 Mar 29 2325    Epimetheus   62100 km
2005 Mar 31 2005    Titan         2402 km  T4
2005 Apr 15 0015    Epimetheus   46000 km
2005 Apr 15 0126    Mimas        82600 km
2005 Apr 15 0422    Calypso      70470 km
2005 Apr 16 1911    Titan         1025 km  T5 (06TI)
2005 May  2 1920    Helene      114200 km
2005 May  2 2148    Tethys       51800 km
2005 May  2 2303    Epimetheus  118500 km
2005 May 21 0630    Atlas        99700 km
2005 May 21 0648    Prometheus  107400 km
2005 May 21 0815    Enceladus   102100 km
2005 Jun  8 1025    Calypso      97810 km
2005 Jun  8?        Pallene      Unknown

Cassini has more flybys of Titan, Enceladus and Mimas lined up in the  
coming
months.

Table of Recent Launches
-----------------------

Date UT        Name               Launch Vehicle      Site/Mission          INTL. DES.
Apr 11 1335   XSS-11            Minotaur              Vandenberg SLC8   Tech        11A
Apr 12 1200   Apstar 6          CZ-3B                 Xichang                  Comms     12A
Apr 15 0046  Soyuz TMA-6  Soyuz-FG             Baykonur LC1         Spaceship 13A
Apr 15 1726   DART              Pegasus XL/HAPS Vandenberg            Tech        14A
Apr 26 0731   Spaceway 1      Zenit-3SL            Odyssey                 Comms     15A
Apr 30 0050   USA 182?       Titan 4B               Canaveral SLC40    Radar?    16A
May  5 0445   Cartosat )        PSLV                    SDLC SLP               Imaging   17A
                      HAMSAT   )                                                              Comms      17B
May 20 1022  NOAA 18         Delta 7320           Vandenberg SLC2W  Weather 18A
May 22 1759  DirecTV 8        Proton-M/Briz      Baykonur LC200/39  Comms    19A
May 31 1200   Foton-M No. 2  Soyuz-U               Baykonur LC1           Micrograv 20A

.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
|  Jonathan McDowell                 |  phone : (617) 495-7176                        |
|  Somerville MA 02143              |  inter : jcm at host.planet4589.org           |
|  USA                                       |  jcm at cfa.harvard.edu                            |
|                                                                                                              |
| JSR: http://www.planet4589.org/jsr.html                                               |
| Back issues:  http://www.planet4589.org/space/jsr/back                         |
| Subscribe/unsub: mail majordomo at host.planet4589.org, (un)subscribe jsr |
'-------------------------------------------------------------------------------'



-- 

"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun 16 23:30:42 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:30:42 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <20050616205747.81985.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506162330.j5GNUMR07667@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
> 
> ... I was asleep when my uncle from 2
> states away appeared in my room and jokingly told me
> he had died... Later that morning I got a phone
> call from his grand-daughter who told me that he had
> either accidently or purposely removed his oxygen mask
> the night before and died as a result of it. I can't
> explain this...
> 
> The Avantguardian

Avant, I will offer two explanations, from which you are to 
choose your favorite.

1.  Some supernatural or poorly understood force or phenomenon,
such as angels, demons, god, evolution, ESP, etc, sent you the 
information of your uncle's passing as you slept, thus causing 
the dream.

2.  Since your uncle was older (had a grand-daughter) and was 
very sick (sleeping with an oxygen mask), your very conscious 
mind knew he was playing out the endgame of life, thus causing 
the dream.

spike








From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jun 16 23:54:01 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:54:01 +1000
Subject: Slipping away (was Re: [extropy-chat] Death)
References: <20050616205747.81985.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <016d01c572ce$abadca10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

The Avantguardian wrote:

> I was asleep when my uncle from 2
> states away appeared in my room and jokingly told me
> he had died. I woke up, thought it was just a morbid
> dream, vowed to call him later to check up on him, and
> went back to sleep. Later that morning I got a phone
> call from his grand-daughter who told me that he had
> either accidently or purposely removed his oxygen mask
> the night before and died as a result of it. I can't
> explain this, but I cannot disbelieve it either
> because it HAPPENED. So I would encourage Samantha to
> keep a dream log. If the bond between her and Michael
> was a strong as she said, I cannot imagine that he
> would not try to communicate with her if he could. And
> my own experience tells me that we are most receptive
> to this sort of thing in REM state.

Stuart, stuart! Wake up. Wake up.

Seriously bud, the scientist in you, should check the use
by date on whatever you've been eating lately. 

I go away from the list for a bit and some of my favourite
rational types and writers of essays on therapeutic cloning
start flirting with the paranormal. 

Hey did you even do a "transhumanist" strength/grade
version of that essay? I was kinda hoping to check out 
your science.

Brett Paatsch



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 16 23:58:56 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
In-Reply-To: <42B20153.3080804@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20050616235856.14757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Something that Jonathan left out that is of importance to our good
friend Doug Jones: XCOR received, last week, a $7 million contract from
NASA to further develop XCORs unique crogenic fuel tank technology, to
potentially replace the metal and foam space shuttle tank with XCOR's
lighter, stronger, and insulative synthetic tank technology. Read on:

http://www.xcor.com

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 00:10:41 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:10:41 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of language
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616115644.01d99458@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200506170010.j5H0ALR12165@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick

>... there is a very large number of words in common
> usage that mean the opposite of their original coinage but don't seem
> amenable to that explanation. "Sophisticated" to mean knowing and classy
> is the reverse of the earlier sense of fake and tawdry...
> 
> Damien Broderick


The term "let" in the King James bible means "prevent."  This
one is really confusing to the unclued.

Another possibility is that meaning reversals result from 
humor.  I am not a Buddhist, but rather an admirer of that 
philosophy.  San Jose has a large and thriving Japan-town 
where a great Obon Festival is held every July.  I often 
volunteer as a noodle cooker, because it is the hottest job 
and CR makes one nearly immune to heat.  The Shinto Buddhist 
temple is about 95% Japanese.  I am often the only blondie 
present.  They gave me a nickname or title, which translates 
to "round eyed good person."  I suspected there was a shade of
extra meaning there, for they instructed me the emphasis was
important. 

Later I learned that the title is more like "round eyed GOOOOD 
person" with just enough accent on the GOOOD to slyly imply 
that ordinarily round eyed persons are not good, so that one 
is mildly surprised at the juxtaposition of these incompatible 
adjectives.  The gentle Japanese sense of humor resulted in a
subtle reversal of meaning. 

{8^D

I laughed my ass off.  That's how I got this way.

spike




 



From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 00:25:42 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:25:42 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
In-Reply-To: <20050616235856.14757.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506170025.j5H0PMR13657@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
> 
> 
> ...our good friend Doug Jones: XCOR received, last week, a $7 million
contract from NASA ...
> 
> http://www.xcor.com
> 
> Mike Lorrey


Cooool!  The Jones gang comes thru again.  We knew him back
when he was just the Rocket Plumber.  Doug, you go, boy!

spike

ps Why is it that the male counterpart to the catchphrase
"you go, girl" doesn't sound right?  If one knows not
the gender of the recipient of a motivational email,
does it become "you go, human"?  If a post-singularity email
list member might be an AI, is the appropriate salutation
"you go, lifeform"?

spike


   







From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 00:43:08 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <200506162330.j5GNUMR07667@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050617004308.86325.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Avant, I will offer two explanations, from which you
> are to 
> choose your favorite.
> 
> 1.  Some supernatural or poorly understood force or
> phenomenon,
> such as angels, demons, god, evolution, ESP, etc,
> sent you the 
> information of your uncle's passing as you slept,
> thus causing 
> the dream.

These had crossed my mind. But which was it? Is it
precognition/ ESP by my brain? Was it a last desperate
telepathic push by his oxygen starved brain? (he
seemed happier in my dream than when I last saw him
alive). Or is there something to this soul stuff after
all? 
 
> 2.  Since your uncle was older (had a
> grand-daughter) and was 
> very sick (sleeping with an oxygen mask), your very
> conscious 
> mind knew he was playing out the endgame of life,
> thus causing 
> the dream.

This too had crossed my mind. But he had been very
sick for a long time, though the doctors felt he had
several more months left at the time, provided he used
the meds and the oxygen. So what are the odds of a
random dream as such that so perfectly captured his
personality within an hour or two of his actual death?
His chronic condition had lasted a couple of years and
could have gone on for another year if he had his
oxygen. For the whole time, I don't remember any other
dreams of him before even during a bad scare the year
before that put him the hospital over Thanksgiving.
The P-value of this is well below the .05 normally
judged in science to indicate significance. The other
explanations may seem hoaky to the skeptics of the
world but this explanation seems to be very
improbable. 



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 17 01:07:19 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:07:19 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <20050616205747.81985.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050616205747.81985.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A4EF846E-CC16-4C82-A71C-4D54AAE022DA@mac.com>


On Jun 16, 2005, at 1:57 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <pgptag at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> You felt
>> nothing *exceptional* at the moment of Michael's
>> death. Well probably
>> you don't feel TV stations directly with your brain
>> either. Doesn't
>> mean they are not broadcasting all around you.
>>

> Well said Guilio. I was asleep when my uncle from 2
> states away appeared in my room and jokingly told me
> he had died. I woke up, thought it was just a morbid
> dream, vowed to call him later to check up on him, and
> went back to sleep. Later that morning I got a phone
> call from his grand-daughter who told me that he had
> either accidently or purposely removed his oxygen mask
> the night before and died as a result of it. I can't
> explain this, but I cannot disbelieve it either
> because it HAPPENED. So I would encourage Samantha to
> keep a dream log. If the bond between her and Michael
> was a strong as she said, I cannot imagine that he
> would not try to communicate with her if he could. And
> my own experience tells me that we are most receptive
> to this sort of thing in REM state.
>

We'll see. I am no stranger to things that go bump in the night.  As  
I said, particularly with Michael I was surprised not to get  
something of the kind.   So far I have been dreamless.  Which is  
unusual for me.   I am going to assume nothing.  But whatever this X- 
files something is or isn't it sure is spotty and undependable as hell.

- s


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 01:34:56 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Slipping away (was Re: [extropy-chat] Death)
In-Reply-To: <016d01c572ce$abadca10$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050617013456.77905.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Stuart, stuart! Wake up. Wake up.
That's very close to what my uncle said when that
dream started out.



> I go away from the list for a bit and some of my
> favourite
> rational types and writers of essays on therapeutic
> cloning
> start flirting with the paranormal. 

Hehe. Actually I have spent most of my life AVOIDING
the paranormal (even more so than religion). I mean
crosses don't burn me or anything but I only go to
church if someone drags me there. Unfortunately the
paranormal has been flirting with me. Well to be
honest it felt more like the paranormal groped me and
tried to stick its tongue down my throat.

But don't worry, I haven't lost my rationality or my 
objectivity. I don't even really expect or care if
anyone believes me. But I won't laugh at anyone when
they tell me similar things any more. After all, how
many coincidences are too many? Hamlet hit the nail on
the head: "There are more things in heaven and earth,
Horatio, than are dreamt of in our poor philosophies."
 

 
> Hey did you even do a "transhumanist" strength/grade
> version of that essay? I was kinda hoping to check
> out 
> your science.

No, not yet. It wouldn't be an essay on therapeutic
cloning alone anyway. That would be preaching to the
choir as I am often reminded. So the essay I want to
write for you guys would be a bit more broad and would
be about applications of specific cutting edge
technologies to the goals of life extension. Not
science-fiction but real practical stuff.

Unfortunately, I am trying to complete experiments and
write an actual scientific manuscript to submit for
review by the the end of summer, so I have been really
busy of late. But I haven't forgotten and you folks
will get your essay. :)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Jun 17 01:59:59 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:59:59 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British Producer/Director
	Interviewing Teenagers on Future
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com
 >
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050616215824.03589b30@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 08:54 PM 15/06/05 -0500, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to interview 
>teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive effects of 
>change on culture and, especially, the fact that they may live beyond 100 
>years old and what this means to their generation.
>
>If you have teenagers or if you know of teenagers who are futurists and/or 
>transhumanists with a positive extropic point of view about the future, 
>including a view that applies critical thinking to his or her concerns and 
>would like to be in a film, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

My daughter is 22 so that puts her out of the running.

But I doubt many raised in transhumanist households think much about it.

Best wishes,

Keith



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Fri Jun 17 02:05:09 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:05:09 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Slipping away
References: <20050617013456.77905.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01c301c572e0$fd9d4370$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> I go away from the list for a bit and some of my
>> favourite
>> rational types and writers of essays on therapeutic
>> cloning
>> start flirting with the paranormal. 
> 
> Hehe. Actually I have spent most of my life AVOIDING
> the paranormal (even more so than religion). I mean
> crosses don't burn me or anything but I only go to
> church if someone drags me there. Unfortunately the
> paranormal has been flirting with me. Well to be
> honest it felt more like the paranormal groped me and
> tried to stick its tongue down my throat.

Hey get a room, perhaps this should be slightly more of a
family list. I've now got all these icky images of ectoplasm
all over the place.
 
> .. After all, how
> many coincidences are too many? Hamlet hit the nail on
> the head: "There are more things in heaven and earth,
> Horatio, than are dreamt of in our poor philosophies."

I thought it was "in all *your* philosophy",  but I could be 
mistaken and haven't checked. Perhaps you're gentling
down Hamlet by removing the rude verbal finger pointing.
Still I suspect the poor guy was not in a polite frame of 
mind at the time after visits from ghostly fathers and all.  
 
> 
>> Hey did you even do a "transhumanist" strength/grade
>> version of that essay? I was kinda hoping to check
>> out 
>> your science.
> 
> No, not yet. It wouldn't be an essay on therapeutic
> cloning alone anyway.

Yeah that terminologies dated donchaknow. Think
its NT, nuclear transfer, now. Was somatic cell nuclear
transfer for a bit but jeepers how long can people keep
saying all that. 

> .. the essay I want to
> write for you guys would be a bit more broad and would
> be about applications of specific cutting edge
> technologies to the goals of life extension. Not
> science-fiction but real practical stuff.

Great! Very handy, I'll stick it on me fridge ;-)
 
> Unfortunately, I am trying to complete experiments and
> write an actual scientific manuscript to submit for
> review by the the end of summer, so I have been really
> busy of late.

No rest for some classes of humanity.

> But I haven't forgotten and you folks
> will get your essay. :)

Cool !

Brett Paatsch

'Hoaky sceptics of the world unite you have
nothing to save but your brains' - as one of the
Marx family should have said.








From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Jun 17 02:35:35 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:35:35 -0700
Subject: FWD [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~
Message-ID: <42B236F7.1060701@mindspring.com>

The Nanogirl News
June 16, 2005
 
Scientists unveil 'clay' robots that will shape our world. TINY robots 
that can turn into any shape - from a replica human to a banana to a 
mobile phone - are being developed by scientists in the United States. 
The new science of claytronics, which will use nanotechnology to create 
tiny robots called catoms, should enable three-dimensional copies of 
people to be "faxed" around the world for virtual meetings. A doctor 
could also consult with a patient over the phone, even taking their 
pulse by holding the wrist of the claytronic replica, reports New 
Scientist.
(Scotsman 6/9/05)  http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=632012005
 
Nano World: Nano for stem-cell research. Cutting-edge nanotechnology is 
beginning to help advance the equally pioneering field of stem-cell 
research, with devices that can precisely control stem cells and provide 
self-assembling biodegradable scaffolds and magnetic tracking systems, 
experts told UPI's Nano World. "Nanotechnology might show people once 
and for all that you really can help regenerate organs with stem-cell 
biology and help people walk again, help people after heart attacks, 
help people after stroke," said John Kessler, a neurologist at 
Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill. (World Peace Herald 6/13/05) 
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050613-112055-9237r
 
Scientists Fret over nanotech breakthrough. A breakthrough in 
nanotechnology has enabled doctors accurately to measure the levels of 
crucial chemicals in living brain cells in real time and at the level of 
a single cell. Scientists at Stanford University and the Carnegie 
Institution's Department of Plant Biology claim to be the first 
successfully to apply genetic nanotechnology using molecular sensors to 
view changes in brain chemical levels. (Computing 5/31/05) 
http://www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/news/2137318/scientists-fret-nanotech-breakthrough
 
Quantum dots prove to be a faster, more sensitive method for detecting 
respiratory viral infections. In what may be one of the first medical 
uses of nanotechnology, a chemist and a doctor who specializes in 
infectious childhood diseases have joined forces to create an early 
detection method for a respiratory virus that is the most common cause 
of hospitalization among children under five. (Exploration 6/9/05) 
http://exploration.vanderbilt.edu/news/news_quantum.htm
 
UCI scientists use nanotechnology to create world's fastest method for 
transmitting information in cell phones and computers. UC Irvine 
scientists in The Henry Samueli School of Engineering have demonstrated 
for the first time that carbon nanotubes can route electrical signals on 
a chip faster than traditional copper or aluminum wires, at speeds of up 
to 10 GHz. The breakthrough could lead to faster and more efficient 
computers, and improved wireless network and cellular phone systems, 
adding to the growing enthusiasm about nanotechnology's revolutionary 
potential. (UCI 6/9/05) 
http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1337
 
MIT's Nanoprinter Could Mass-produce Nano-devices. Just as the printing 
press revolutionized the creation of reading matter, a "nano-printing" 
technique developed at MIT could enable the mass production of 
nano-devices currently built one at a time. The most immediate candidate 
for this innovation is the DNA microarray, a nano-device used to 
diagnose and understand genetic illnesses such as Alzheimer's, viral 
illnesses such as AIDS, and certain types of cancer. The ability to mass 
produce these complex devices would make DNA analysis as common and 
inexpensive as blood testing, and thus greatly accelerate efforts to 
discover the origins of disease. (Sciencedaily 6/9/05)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050608054226.htm
 
Nanoparticles transport cancer-killing drug into tumor cells to increase 
efficacy, lower drug toxicity in mice. U-M scientists use folic acid as 
bait to get methotrexate inside tumor cells. University of Michigan 
scientists have created the nanotechnology equivalent of a Trojan horse 
to smuggle a powerful chemotherapeutic drug inside tumor cells - 
increasing the drug's cancer-killing activity and reducing its toxic 
side effects..."This is the first study to demonstrate a 
nanoparticle-targeted drug actually leaving the bloodstream, being 
concentrated in cancer cells, and having a biological effect on the 
animal's tumor," says James R. Baker Jr., M.D., the Ruth Dow Doan 
Professor of Biologic Nanotechnology at the University of Michigan, who 
directed the study. (UMHS 6/15/05) 
http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/nanoparticles.htm
 
Commissioner responds to children's nano questions. EU Science and 
Research Commissioner Janez Potocnik answered questions from children on 
nanotechnology when he visited the nanoTruck in Brussels on 15 June. A 
German initiative, the nanoTruck is a mobile science theme park 
exhibiting some of the latest science and technology at the nano 
dimension in a variety of disciplines. Inside the truck are magnetic 
fluids, measuring instruments that make atoms visible, and scratch-proof 
coatings for cars. The organizers encourage visitors try out the 
exhibits themselves, making it an ideal place to introduce the younger 
generation to the wonders of nanoscience and nanotechnology.
(Cordis 6/16/05) 
http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?CALLER=NHP_EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=EN_RCN_ID:23992 
<http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?CALLER=NHP_EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=EN_RCN_ID:23992>
 
Good news about saliva or "spit". Dr. Wong, who also leads UCLA's Dental 
Research Institute, described the latest in saliva diagnostic research 
to attendees at the American Dental Association's National Media 
Conference, held here today. "We have developed highly specific, 
nanotechnology-based biosensors (ultra tiny machines that read the 
simplest cell structure), which will permit the detection of 
disease-bearing biomarkers in saliva," said Dr. Wong. Scientists have 
long recognized that saliva contains the full complement of proteins, 
hormones, antibodies and other molecular substances frequently measured 
in standard blood tests to monitor health and disease, he explained. 
(myDNA 6/9/05) 
http://www.mydna.com/resources/news/200506/news_20050609_spit.html
 
NCL to go into labs with 'Golden Triangle' for cancer trials. EIGHT 
months after raising hopes with their cutting edge 'Golden Triangle' 
technology for fighting cancer sans chemotherapy, nanoscientists at the 
National Chemical Laboratory (NCL) are gearing up for the technology's 
first in-vitro tests. Murali Sastry, head, Nanoscience Group at NCL, 
said the in-vitro (laboratory) tests would be conducted on cancerous 
cells in a month's time at the Tata's Advanced Centre for Treatment, 
Research and Education in Cancer (ACTREC) in Navi Mumbai...The trials 
are being conducted to establish the toxicity of the gold 
nano-particles. ''While gold is inherently non-toxic, we have to see 
exactly where the nano-sized triangles go when introduced into the 
cancerous area. We have kept a two-year window to see if we can get into 
clinical trials on humans.''
(Allheadline News 5/31/05) 
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=131718
 
World's most precise "hard x-ray" nanoprobe activated. Marking a major 
step forward in using x-rays to study extremely small structures and 
phenomena, the world's first "hard x-ray" nanoprobe beamline was 
activated on March 15, 2005. The unique nanoprobe is one of the featured 
instruments at the new Center for Nanoscale Materials (CNM), a U.S. 
Department of Energy user research facility located at Argonne National 
Laboratory, about 25 miles west of Chicago. CNM researchers expect to 
soon be using the x-ray nanoprobe to study individual atoms, molecules, 
and the unique physical interactions that occur at the nanoscale, where 
features are measured in nanometers, or billionths of a meter (a 
nanometer is 70,000 times smaller than the width of a human hair). 
(Nanoapex 5/30/05)
http://news.nanoapex.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5650 
<http://news.nanoapex.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5650>
 
Thin films of silicon nanoparticles roll into flexible nanotubes. By 
depositing nanoparticles onto a charged surface, researchers at the 
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have crafted nanotubes from 
silicon that are flexible and nearly as soft as rubber. "Resembling 
miniature scrolls, the nanotubes could prove useful as catalysts, guided 
laser cavities and nanorobots," said Sahraoui Chaieb, a professor of 
mechanical and industrial engineering at Illinois and a researcher at 
the Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology. (Eurekalert 
6/14/05)
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-06/uoia-tfo061405.php
 
China tops the world in nano-papers. News from the 2005 China 
International Conference on Nanoscience and Technology (China Nano 2005) 
held on June 9 says that by December 2004 China has had more than 800 
companies engaged in trade in nano-technology and about a hundred 
nano-technology research institutes. More than ten projects such as for 
making Li cells, solar cells, textiles and environment-friendly interior 
paints have been commercialized. (People's Daily Online 6/10/05)
http://english.people.com.cn/200506/10/eng20050610_189642.html
 
Nanotechnology's Environmental, Health, and Safety Risks Can Be 
Addressed Responsibly Today. Stakeholders ranging from corporations to 
start-ups to protest groups are concerned about the environmental, 
health, and safety (EHS) risks of nanoparticles -- the prospect that 
tiny, engineered particles of matter might harm workers, consumers or 
the environment. While such EHS risks do exist, they can be 
appropriately addressed today using well-established risk management 
techniques, according to a new report from Lux Research entitled "A 
Prudent Approach to Nanotech Environmental, Health, and Safety Risks." 
(Yahoo 6/15/05) http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050615/nyw071.html?.v=11
 
When Nanopants Attack. On a chilly Chicago afternoon in early May, 
environmental activists sauntered into the Eddie Bauer store on Michigan 
Avenue, headed to the broad storefront windows opening out on the 
Magnificent Mile. Activists hoped to lay bare growing allegations of the 
toxic dangers of nanotechnology. The demonstrators bore the message in 
slogans painted on their bodies, proclaiming "Eddie Bauer hazard" and 
"Expose the truth about nanotech," among other things, in light of the 
clothing company's embrace of nanotech in its recent line of 
stain-resistant "nanopants." (Wired 6/16/05) 
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,67626,00.html?tw=wn_12techhead
 
Brush up on your nanotechnology. The world's smallest brushes, with 
bristles more than a thousand times finer than a human hair, have been 
created by researchers in the US. The brushes can be used for sweeping 
up nano-dust, painting microstructures and even cleaning up pollutants 
in water. The bristles' secret is carbon nanotubes, tiny straw-like 
molecules just 30 billionths of a metre across. They are incredibly 
tough and yet flexible enough that they will yield when pushed from the 
side. The researchers behind the brushes were led from Rensselaer 
Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. Their work is reported in the 
journal Nature Materials. (BBC 6/12/05)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4085214.stm
 
'Emerging Sectors' maps new type of summer camp. What will your kids 
tell classmates they did this summer? Attend soccer camp? Swim at the 
pool? Study nanotechnology? Instructors at Oakland Schools hope the 
response will be the latter as the school system is modeling much of its 
summer enrichment programs after the county's Emerging Sectors 
initiative. The curriculum received praise from government officials and 
industry leaders, who say getting technology training into youngsters' 
hands is essential in creating tomorrow's high-skilled workforce.
(mlive 6/16/05)  
http://www.mlive.com/mbusinessreview/stories/index.ssf?/mbusinessreview/oak/stories/20050616_emerging.html
 
Does 10% = Halfway? To "maximize the potential and minimize the risks" 
of nanotechnology, DuPont CEO Chad Holliday and Environmental Defense 
(ED) President Fred Krupp are calling for "increased risk research, 
improved regulatory oversight, proactive corporate management standards, 
and broad stakeholder engagement." Given potential liability and market 
risks, industry, universities, government and public interest groups 
should collaborate to determine what testing is necessary for new 
nanoproducts. Businesses then should conduct the needed testing before 
new products enter commercial use. . . A collaborative effort could set 
interim standards for nanotechnology around the world while regulations 
are under development. (CRN blog 6/15/05) 
http://crnano.typepad.com/crnblog/2005/06/does_10_halfway.html
 
 
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com <mailto:nanogirl at halcyon.com>
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."

-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
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From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Fri Jun 17 06:16:18 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:16:18 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
Message-ID: <20050617061618.67096.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>A noble sentiment, but I'm not sure 2030 is realistic; my guess, for
>what it's worth, is that mid to late 21st century is more plausible
>than early. Only time will tell, of course, but remember it's a
>marathon, not a sprint: if 2030 comes around and the world's problems
>are still with us, that does not necessarily mean we have failed to
>solve them - only that we have not done so _yet_.
>
>- Russell
 
For a variety of reasons I think 2030 is a very conservative, realistic and achieveable target for Singularity.
 
I base my target date on comments made by leading AI researchers such as Wilson, Yudkowsky and Goertzel (who all stated on various messageboards that the problem of general intelligence was now mostly solved and it is only the Friendliness problem that now awaits solution.  Goertzel was also sure that his Novamente project could be coded in only 30 000 lines of a high level language, which is only a modest size).  Aside from that there is all the evidence for accelerating progress in info-tech, summarized well in Damian Broderick's 'The Spike', Moore's Law etc.  There is also concrete evidence to support this rate of progress in the form of the ferocious rate at which news is coming out of the labs (for instance millionare Jeff Hawkins project, or the recent 'Blue Brain' project to simulate the brain to name just two recent impressive examples).   
 
In any event, there is also evidence that other technologies such as nano-technology or bio-technology should be reaching maturation by 2030 and the dangers posed by these technologies require AGI to handle saftely.  
 
Finally, for me personally, I'm 33 now and by 2030 I'd be 58, which is too old to be sure of my further survival without major advances in bio-tech (survival rates plummet after one turns 60).
 
So it all looks like 2030 really is the end of the line (at least as far as I'm concerned).
 
All that said, I concede that trying to predict target dates for things is fun but can all too easily degenerate into mental masturabation and pointless philosophisizing).  Rather than prediction, one is really *projecting* or *goal setting*
 
I do agree with you that we're probably not nearly as close as the hard-core enthusiasts think.  Real AGI for instance, probably requires major advances in probability theory and a mathematics of complex systems which doesn't exist yet.   For instance a while back I stumbled upon a new kind of epistemology called 'Procedural Naturalism' which goes beyond Bayes and I also realized that deductive reasoning has never been properly incorporated into probabilistic causal networks.  So there are hints there that new maths may be required.   All ball-busting stuff.
 
Finally there is the big problem of morality yet to be solved.     It's one thing for people like Wilson and Yudkowsky to spout on and on about how clever they are to know the solution to general intelligence, but they got most of the answer by reading it in numerous papers and books.  Easy to absorb what others have done.  Far far harder to forge into new terrority.  There are no books and papers for them to copy the solution to morality from, so I predict that they're up the creek without a paddle when it comes to morality ;)   Serves them right really.   Monumental arrogance displayed to others, over-confidence, too much egoism etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
    


---

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  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

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'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 07:00:03 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:00:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617061618.67096.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050617070003.84388.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

> For a variety of reasons I think 2030 is a very
> conservative, realistic and achieveable target for
> Singularity.

Not a terribly bad target date. I personally don't
think it will happen until at least 2035 but I think
it will have definately have happened by 2050.

  
> I base my target date on comments made by leading AI
> researchers such as Wilson, Yudkowsky and Goertzel
> (who all stated on various messageboards that the
> problem of general intelligence was now mostly
> solved and it is only the Friendliness problem that
> now awaits solution.

Good luck on that. If you can't even get people to get
along with each other, how are you going get a
super-intelligence to get along with them?


> In any event, there is also evidence that other
> technologies such as nano-technology or
> bio-technology should be reaching maturation by 2030
> and the dangers posed by these technologies require
> AGI to handle saftely.  

Oh hell no! No MACHINE is going to tell me what I can
or can't do in the lab. I can't even stand it when the
President tries to tell me what I can or can't
research and at least he has enough imagination to lie
to me. I tell you what. If your A.I. can let me have
the first move and still beat me at go then I will
start doing what it says. Until then, it stays the
hell out of my business. 
  
> Finally, for me personally, I'm 33 now and by 2030
> I'd be 58, which is too old to be sure of my further
> survival without major advances in bio-tech
> (survival rates plummet after one turns 60).

If you aren't ready to die any second, what chance do
you think you have to live forever?

> There are no books and papers for them to copy the 
> solution to morality
> from, so I predict that they're up the creek without
> a paddle when it comes to morality ;)   Serves them
> right really.   Monumental arrogance displayed to
> others, over-confidence, too much egoism etc.
  
Alright. You place your hopes on being able to program
the A.I. to be nice to you. I'll place my efforts on
being smarter and more clever than the A.I. That's
just good advice from my friend Chuck Darwin.







The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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From zero.powers at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 08:10:24 2005
From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:10:24 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transparent Society, thy name is Zaba!
Message-ID: <7a321705050617011057ffd77b@mail.gmail.com>

Go to this site, type in your name and state of residence.  Watch in
amazement as your address, telephone number and date of birth
magically appear.  Do the same for your favorite old
girlfriend/boyfriend, then why not your favorite celebrity?  Or your
favorite politician?  Too bad it only works for U.S. residents.  If it
was global ol' Dubya could just type in Osama's name, get his address
and go kill him!

www.zabasearch.com

Zero


From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Fri Jun 17 08:55:05 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:55:05 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
Message-ID: <20050617085505.62406.qmail@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>Alright. You place your hopes on being able to program
>the A.I. to be nice to you. I'll place my efforts on
>being smarter and more clever than the A.I. That's
>just good advice from my friend Chuck Darwin.
 
You're dreaming.  A self-improving seed AI undergoing 'hard take-off' would surpass your intelligence level in minutes.  
 
As to being nice, the 'Morality' modality seems to be a HUGE intellectual strong-point for me.  I believe I was born with a freak intuitive sense of morality which will enable me to swiftly cut through to the solution without much thought.  That's why I'll give Wilson, Yudkowsky and all the rest a run for their money.  It's not a symmetic situation.  I can get most of the answer to the problem of general intelligence simply by studying papers and books for a year or two.  The other AI researchers, on the other hand, won't find even rudimentary answers to morality anywhere.  Should be a good race. 
 
Hee hee
 


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jun 17 12:07:35 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:07:35 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British Producer/Director
	Interviewing Teenagers on Future
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617065848.030385f0@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

At 08:59 PM 6/16/2005, Keith wrote:
.
>But I doubt many raised in transhumanist households think much about it.

Why do you think teenagers would not think about the future, live extension 
and living past 100?

 From my meager experience teaching in High School, social sciences covered 
current social conditions and living longer is a topic that is, in fact, 
being discussed today.  Further, I lectured at a the Milken Community High 
School in Los Angeles specifically to discuss living longer and cryonics.

Many high schools have programs for health awareness and economics.  Some 
have investing programs, which contain studies on retirement and how to 
prepare for the future.

It would be highly unlikely for teenagers not to consider health and living 
longer, also since it is often the topic of their teenager magazines.

Best,
Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 15:09:37 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617061618.67096.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050617150937.92893.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

> >A noble sentiment, but I'm not sure 2030 is realistic; my guess, for
> >what it's worth, is that mid to late 21st century is more plausible
> >than early. Only time will tell, of course, but remember it's a
> >marathon, not a sprint: if 2030 comes around and the world's
> problems
> >are still with us, that does not necessarily mean we have failed to
> >solve them - only that we have not done so _yet_.
> >
> >- Russell
>  
> For a variety of reasons I think 2030 is a very conservative,
> realistic and achieveable target for Singularity.

This is highly dependent upon greater market achievements. The TCRA of
1998 surely delayed the singularity by at least 5 to possibly 8 or more
years, simply because we should all be working off of fiber optic
internet connections rather than cable or DSL or T1. A factor of 100
difference in bandwidth is 8 Moore generations in bandwidth
development.

Legislation along with luddite terrorism will be the primary brake on
progress in the coming decades and will determine when the Singularity
arrives, if it does in time to continue to beat the resource depletion
curve with utilization efficiency gains. When governments put their
survival ahead of technological progress, do not expect progress to
happen.

>  
> I base my target date on comments made by leading AI researchers such
> as Wilson, Yudkowsky and Goertzel (who all stated on various
> messageboards that the problem of general intelligence was now mostly
> solved and it is only the Friendliness problem that now awaits
> solution.  Goertzel was also sure that his Novamente project could be
> coded in only 30 000 lines of a high level language, which is only a
> modest size).  Aside from that there is all the evidence for
> accelerating progress in info-tech, summarized well in Damian
> Broderick's 'The Spike', Moore's Law etc.  There is also concrete
> evidence to support this rate of progress in the form of the
> ferocious rate at which news is coming out of the labs (for instance
> millionare Jeff Hawkins project, or the recent 'Blue Brain' project
> to simulate the brain to name just two recent impressive examples).  
> 

Oh really? Eli and Ben have AIs running on stand alone machines, do
they? If the problem is mostly solved we should be seeing something by
now.

The Blue Brain simulation is merely an advanced physiological simulator
for medical research. The idea that it will be some sort of AI brain is
a bit of a stretch.

>  
> In any event, there is also evidence that other technologies such as
> nano-technology or bio-technology should be reaching maturation by
> 2030 and the dangers posed by these technologies require AGI to
> handle saftely.  
>  
> Finally, for me personally, I'm 33 now and by 2030 I'd be 58, which
> is too old to be sure of my further survival without major advances
> in bio-tech (survival rates plummet after one turns 60).

You are looking at it from a 2000 point of view. By 2030 average life
expectancy will be in the 80's or 90's. You will still be in middle
age.

>  
> All that said, I concede that trying to predict target dates for
> things is fun but can all too easily degenerate into mental
> masturabation and pointless philosophisizing).  Rather than
> prediction, one is really *projecting* or *goal setting*

Without running and fully funding a goal oriented PAC with a set
legislative agenda and election funds, we are going to get played at
every corner by the luddites.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jun 17 16:39:17 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:39:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic dust or cosmic bulldust?
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617113408.01e30af8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

Sounds three degrees of separation from Velikovsky to me, but hey, it came 
to my notice in a supportive comment from a Nobel physicist:

http://www.etheric.com/Sphinx_Stargate/Scorpius.html

The author, Dr Paul LaViolette, claims censorship from arXiv,

http://www.etheric.com/physarchive/history2.html

although this did finally appear there:

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0502019

Damien Broderick




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jun 17 16:48:23 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:48:23 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic dust or cosmic bulldust?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617113408.01e30af8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617113408.01e30af8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617114613.01da2d18@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

But wait, there's more on/by LaViolette's interstellar dust hypotheses (are 
you there, Amara?):

http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predict.html

provides some apparently impressive comparisons of prevailing doctrine c. 
1980s vs. his predictions, and subsequent findings.

Damien Broderick




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 17:02:03 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:02:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic dust or cosmic bulldust?
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617113408.01e30af8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050617170203.32931.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> Sounds three degrees of separation from Velikovsky to me, but hey, it
> came 
> to my notice in a supportive comment from a Nobel physicist:
> 
> http://www.etheric.com/Sphinx_Stargate/Scorpius.html
> 
> The author, Dr Paul LaViolette, claims censorship from arXiv,
> 
> http://www.etheric.com/physarchive/history2.html
> 
> although this did finally appear there:
> 
> http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0502019

It appeared in the general physics section, not astrophysics, not
astronomy, etc. i.e. by banishing a topic-specific paper to the general
physics area that it has nothing to do with, Cornell ensures that
LaViolette's work does not get read as much as it should or could. The
pattern of behavior by arxiv seems clear. Cornell has gone far downhill
since Feynman's day. Perhaps that is why he went to California in the
first place.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 17:42:02 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:42:02 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <20050617170203.32931.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506171742.j5HHgAR20594@tick.javien.com>

Woohooo!  Toyota has solved our peak oil problems.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/17/toyota_fuel_cell.reut/index.html

Unfortunately the car will cost 50k, but I see a lot
of beemers and Mercedes and such buzzing around that
cost more than that.  And of course they don't actually
eliminate pollution, but they do move it elsewhere, such
as the site where the hydrogen is being made, using 
nuclear or coal-fired plants.  So who needs oil anyway?

My contention is that before these kinds of solutions
are widely implemented, we will plow up much of the
American midwestern grasslands, divert rivers inland
and plant it all in corn.

I had a total Taxifornia moment yesterday.  I saw a
city bus that was doing something peculiar: instead of
the usual black diesel cloud, it was spewing a very
pristine white cloud of steam.  I caught up on it and
saw that it was one of the brand new hydrogen powered
buses.  I pulled up beside and noticed it had websites
plastered all over it, advertising itself, such as:

http://www.vta.org/projects/ZEBs.html

I saw that it carried no passengers.  The driver of
this multimillion dollar bus was tooling along in the 
carpool lane all by his cheerful self.  

Your tax dollars at play.

spike








From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 17 18:18:45 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <200506171742.j5HHgAR20594@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050617181845.77930.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I saw that it carried no passengers.  The driver of
> this multimillion dollar bus was tooling along in the 
> carpool lane all by his cheerful self.  
> 
> Your tax dollars at play.

Buses do that all the time, special engines or no.  Did you notice
whether it had an "OUT OF SERVICE" for its displayed route?

Not that what you're implying is necessarily incorrect, of course.
Just that it isn't the only plausible explanation, given the
evidence.


From hal at finney.org  Fri Jun 17 17:40:38 2005
From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
Message-ID: <20050617174038.7C68157E8C@finney.org>

Spike writes:
> Woohooo!  Toyota has solved our peak oil problems.
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/17/toyota_fuel_cell.reut/index.html
>
> Unfortunately the car will cost 50k, but I see a lot
> of beemers and Mercedes and such buzzing around that
> cost more than that.  And of course they don't actually
> eliminate pollution, but they do move it elsewhere, such
> as the site where the hydrogen is being made, using 
> nuclear or coal-fired plants.  So who needs oil anyway?

The main problem is building the hydrogen distribution network.
But you're right, oil is not much used for electricity, mostly natural
gas, coal and nuclear.  Hydrogen can be made from electricity or from
natural gas.  However natural gas is showing some signs of running out
too and probably won't last a lot longer than oil.

> My contention is that before these kinds of solutions
> are widely implemented, we will plow up much of the
> American midwestern grasslands, divert rivers inland
> and plant it all in corn.

And we will use the corn to generate alcohol for vehicles.  I agree
that this makes more sense than switching to hydrogen.  Another good
approach is biodiesel.  Most of the car companies are going to come out
in a couple of years with diesel hybrids, which as we discussed here
make good engineering sense and will get 50-70 MPG.

The L.A. Times had an article Wednesday about Brazil's success with
alcohol fuels,
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fi-ethanol15jun15,1,6833300.story.
They have an advantage because of using sugar cane, which grows well in
that climate.  The article mentions the need in the U.S. for research into
creating ethanol from cellulose, so that agricultural waste and grasses
can be used directly.  If we could get that working then it might not
be necessary to do much replanting, we could be much more efficient in
using our existing agricultural byproducts.

I've seen the same kind of claims from biodiesel proponents, who envision
algae ponds fed by unused animal parts and such, with the algae dried
and pressed to produce vegetable oil that can be processed into diesel.
In principle you can convert a few percent of existing farm acreage and
replace all the oil currently being used.

All of these changes will require big infrastructure investments, but
hopefully if oil prices stay high we will start to see the motivation
to switch.  Brazil's ethanol fuels are supposedly cheaper than gasoline,
although it wasn't 100% clear whether that is a free market price.  But if
so then that should be a target for American investors.  They don't need
Congressional mandates, they need a technology that can undercut oil, and
the confidence that oil prices will stay high so that their investments
won't be wasted.  Hopefully after another year or two of high prices
the confidence will be there and we will see more movement in this area.

Hal


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 18:40:57 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:40:57 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <20050617181845.77930.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506171841.j5HIf6R29158@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
> 
> --- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > I saw that it carried no passengers.  The driver of
> > this multimillion dollar bus was tooling along in the
> > carpool lane all by his cheerful self.
> >
> > Your tax dollars at play.
> 
> Buses do that all the time, special engines or no.  Did you notice
> whether it had an "OUT OF SERVICE" for its displayed route?

No I didn't notice.  The hydrogen station is in San Jose, and 
it was traveling from Milpitas to Sunnyvale, so I don't see why 
it would be out of service unless going to or coming from the
station.  Perhaps there is another reason for being out of
service, I dont know.

> Not that what you're implying is necessarily incorrect, of course.
> Just that it isn't the only plausible explanation, given the
> evidence.

Ja.  Actually I see empty in-service city buses often.  For buses
to be very practical, one needs a densely populated city.  In the
smeared out extended suburb which we call the Silicon Valley, bus
transportation is not all that practical.  If one can afford to
live here, one can afford one's own car, eh?*  

I looked up on the site, where they gave budgets.  The initial cost of the
three buses was around 10.6 million, making them over three million
bucks each.  The total cost of the program was 18.4 million, which
includes the fuelling infrastructure, so if we made a campy
TV series about it, we could call it the Six Million Dollar Bus.

Clearly this technology is not ready for prime time, but it
strengthens my contention that these sorts of ideas cannot
be practically implemented until we pump all the cheap easy
oil out of the ground.

spike


*One can purchase a decent running used auto for the price of 
one month's typical rent on an apartment here.  The San Jose 
Merc ran an article this morning on housing costs in the
Santa Clara County.  It said that the median home price
hovered at about 6 years gross average salary for a number
of years.  This past year, the median price of a Santa Clara
home is now over 10 times the average annual gross salary in
this county.

So why do we need buses?

s



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 17 18:44:48 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Transparent Society, thy name is Zaba!
In-Reply-To: <7a321705050617011057ffd77b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050617184448.32154.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com>

This is far from the only one.  And it has its limits.

Personal anecdote: they might have me somewhat pegged, but booooy do
they mess up on my relatives, few of whom have had nearly as active an
online life as I have (which is not a coincidence).  Old or
just-plain-never-were-correct addresses, for starters...

--- Zero Powers <zero.powers at gmail.com> wrote:

> Go to this site, type in your name and state of residence.  Watch in
> amazement as your address, telephone number and date of birth
> magically appear.  Do the same for your favorite old
> girlfriend/boyfriend, then why not your favorite celebrity?  Or your
> favorite politician?  Too bad it only works for U.S. residents.  If
> it
> was global ol' Dubya could just type in Osama's name, get his address
> and go kill him!
> 
> www.zabasearch.com
> 
> Zero
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 18:52:36 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:52:36 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617150937.92893.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050617061618.67096.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050617150937.92893.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e050617115269dfd334@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> This is highly dependent upon greater market achievements. The TCRA of
> 1998 surely delayed the singularity by at least 5 to possibly 8 or more
> years, simply because we should all be working off of fiber optic
> internet connections rather than cable or DSL or T1. A factor of 100
> difference in bandwidth is 8 Moore generations in bandwidth
> development.
> 

This delay only applies to the US, of course.
In a few years time, if the Chinese brute force AI on the much more
powerful computers that will become available, then - game over.

We can hope that they have more sense, but they may well feel driven
to take the risk.
A Chinese AI would be able to spare a few cycles to beat Stuart at Go,
while as a first step helping the Chinese to make safe places for it
to live in, well distributed to avoid possible attacks. What it will
choose to do after that is anybody's guess.

BillK


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jun 17 19:05:51 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:05:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050617115269dfd334@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050617061618.67096.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050617150937.92893.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ee50357e050617115269dfd334@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050617140426.01d39a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 07:52 PM 6/17/2005 +0100, BillK wrote:

>A Chinese AI would be able to spare a few cycles to beat Stuart at Go,
>while as a first step helping the Chinese to make safe places for it
>to live in, well distributed to avoid possible attacks. What it will
>choose to do after that is anybody's guess.

Have an enigmatic and teasing conversation with John Searle is my guess...  :)

Damien Broderick 



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 19:21:46 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:21:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <200506171841.j5HIf6R29158@tick.javien.com>
References: <20050617181845.77930.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>
	<200506171841.j5HIf6R29158@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0506171221179c35bb@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/05, spike wrote:
> Clearly this technology is not ready for prime time, but it
> strengthens my contention that these sorts of ideas cannot
> be practically implemented until we pump all the cheap easy
> oil out of the ground.
> 
> spike
> 

Europe is a bit further ahead in testing hydrogen fuel cell buses. But
Europe cities are also running out of fresh air and suffer heavy
traffic congestion, so their need is possibly more urgent than sunny
California.

Quote:
Nine cities in Europe are taking part in the fuel cell bus trial,
making it the largest project of its type anywhere in the world. The
reason it is so important is because local air pollution, greenhouse
gas emissions and inner-city noise levels are major causes for
concern. The project brings together over 40 organisations, including
the bus manufacturer, operating companies, hydrogen suppliers,
fuelling and storage facilities, and universities.

It is part of the ongoing development of clean urban transport systems
which combine energy efficiency with cost-effectiveness.


News item from 10 February 2005	

Major Milestones Passed
The CUTE / ECTOS / STEP fleet has passed two important milestones:
    * Just before the end of last year, the total mileage of the 33
fuel cell buses amounted to 500.000 km.
    * By the middle of January, the vehicles had been running for
40.000 hours since the beginning of operation.

All participating cities - Amsterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg, London,
Luxembourg, Madrid, Perth, Porto, Reykjavik, Stockholm and Stuttgart -
are very pleased about the progress of the three projects. Buses and
infrastructure continue to operate reliably.


BillK


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 17 19:30:51 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:30:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
In-Reply-To: <200506170025.j5H0PMR13657@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050617193051.597.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> ps Why is it that the male counterpart to the catchphrase
> "you go, girl" doesn't sound right?

I would chalk this up entirely to unfamiliarity.  You've heard "you
go, girl" a lot, so you're used to it.  Alternate formulations trip the
newness detector - which, in almost all humans, is inversely (though
usually only to a minor extent) linked to comfort level.


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 19:34:38 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:34:38 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <200506171841.j5HIf6R29158@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200506171935.j5HJZ0R03497@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
...
> smeared out extended suburb which we call the Silicon Valley, bus
> transportation is not all that practical.  If one can afford to
> live there, one can afford one's own car, eh?*
...
> *One can purchase a decent running used auto for the price of
> one month's typical rent on an apartment here...


Actually this is an understatement.  I do not understand
the economic drivers that would cause the median home
price of anyplace to be over 10 yrs the average gross
income.  But 1500 bucks a month is a verrrry cheap
apartment, a one bedroom one bath in a bad neighborhood.

There used to be a consignment lot in south San Jose for
three digit cars.  The thing had to make it there under
its own power and be less than a thousand bucks, and 
there were skerjillions of cars available there.  So
a running auto is equivalent of three weeks apartment
rent.  Even this might be an understatement: if you
looked around hard enough, some generous soul would
probably be persuaded to give you a worn out but still
running auto.  One was given to me recently.

This whole sitch gave me a vision of the future in which
ever more advanced manufacturing techniques and ever larger
markets emerge (India and China) which causes increased
economies of scale, more advanced factories, etc.  As
envisioned by the nanotech advocates, the eventual result 
is the relative prices of manufactured goods drop steadily
as the relative price of a place to actually park the
stuff increases steadily.  Major appliances, cars,
things that take a lot of room eventually become
cheaper than the piece of real estate it sits upon.  In
some parts of the world, we have effectively reached 
that point before the nanotech era.

spike 






From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 19:56:56 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050617115269dfd334@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050617195656.33901.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> A Chinese AI would be able to spare a few cycles to
> beat Stuart at Go,
> while as a first step helping the Chinese to make
> safe places for it
> to live in, well distributed to avoid possible
> attacks. What it will
> choose to do after that is anybody's guess.

LOL. You think an A.I. will have any respect for
ethnicity or national boundaries? That's as silly as
Germans hoping that the whole breed of german
shepherds would have loyalty to the Motherland. The
A.I. may choose to be friendly to some specific
Chinese people. But to an A.I., a monkey is a monkey,
no matter what shape its eyes are. As far as the go
game, let me know when the A.I. feels up to the challenge.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jun 17 20:19:18 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <200506171935.j5HJZ0R03497@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050617201918.15969.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> As
> envisioned by the nanotech advocates, the eventual result 
> is the relative prices of manufactured goods drop steadily
> as the relative price of a place to actually park the
> stuff increases steadily.  Major appliances, cars,
> things that take a lot of room eventually become
> cheaper than the piece of real estate it sits upon.  In
> some parts of the world, we have effectively reached 
> that point before the nanotech era.

There are certain parts of my life, specifically my material resources,
which frankly sound very reminiscent of that.  Small example: a farmer
would be loathe to give away product, but between all the food my
household is given and can cheaply obtain, we literally can't make use
of all the fruit that grows on the trees in our backyard.  (Seriously:
anyone on this list in the Bay Area who wants to swing by - by
appointment only, please - is welcome to help themselves to a bagful of
lemons and/or peaches from my trees, while they last.  You'll have to
pick 'em yourself.)  We're also looking to get rid of certain
non-trivial equipment (like gene sequencers, and an industrial robot
arm) we picked up as salvage from various ventures; the stuff came to
us practically for free (nothing to do with the equipment itself, but
with the previous owner), but finding someone to buy it (for a fair
price: this stuff, when it sells, goes for several thousand $, so we
won't sell it for only $100) is proving to be a major challenge.

One of the main uses for molecular manufacturing may simply be to scan
and disassemble one's own stuff, for more efficient storage.  Don't
leave your car out in the rain to rust: disassemble it when you're not
using it.  Got a lot of books you've been meaning to read?  Let the
nanites read them into your AI, and then either give 'em to bookstores
or libraries, or if there are none that will take your books, you might
have other uses for those carbon atoms.  If you go to trade shows a
lot, once you're done showing off the schwag you got, toss anything you
won't soon use into the recycler for feedstock.  (And on that note, say
goodbye to garbage dumps, most kinds of toxic waste, and the associated
environmental hazards.  See "thermal depolymerization" for preview of
that kind of thing, in use today.)


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 17 20:42:32 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:42:32 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] more language stuff
In-Reply-To: <20050617193051.597.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506172042.j5HKgZR11901@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...
> > ps Why is it that the male counterpart to the catchphrase
> > "you go, girl" doesn't sound right?
> 
> I would chalk this up entirely to unfamiliarity.  You've heard "you
> go, girl" a lot, so you're used to it.  Alternate formulations trip the
> newness detector - which, in almost all humans, is inversely (though
> usually only to a minor extent) linked to comfort level...


Ja.  I have heard "you go, girl" applied to men as well,
altho I do not understand that or the etymology of the
phrase.  Anyone?  

In the past, feminine references specified female only, 
whereas male reference were not usually gender specific: 
"hey you guys" for instance is applicable to a mixed crowd,
and an unspecified person is usually called "he."  

I understand French and Spanish have analogous structures, 
these being languages that use gender specific pronouns 
extensively.  Is not the feminine pronoun more specific 
than the male?  Or when unknown use the male pronoun el?

So why couldn't it be the other way?

This whole sharing of pronouns situation reminds me of an 
uncomfortable trend I have been seeing.  Instead of a mens 
restroom with no queue and a women's restroom with a long 
queue, many establishments are going to two unisex restrooms, 
both with a queue.  Or one women's and one unisex.  The
unjustice!  I will totally sue!

spike





From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Fri Jun 17 21:16:14 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:16:14 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [UASR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 548
In-Reply-To: <20050617193051.597.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200506170025.j5H0PMR13657@tick.javien.com>
	<20050617193051.597.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce050617141617abf11e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/17/05, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> > ps Why is it that the male counterpart to the catchphrase
> > "you go, girl" doesn't sound right?
> 
> I would chalk this up entirely to unfamiliarity.  You've heard "you
> go, girl" a lot, so you're used to it.  Alternate formulations trip the
> newness detector - which, in almost all humans, is inversely (though
> usually only to a minor extent) linked to comfort level.

I concluded some time last week that the  corresponding word for
"girl" in casual conversation is actually "dude," rather than "boy."
As in, "You go, dude!"

-- Neil


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Jun 17 22:06:46 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:06:46 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] 'Teleporting' over the internet
Message-ID: <42B34976.4060408@mindspring.com>

< http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4102018.stm >
 

Computer scientists in the US are developing a system which would allow
people to "teleport" a solid 3D recreation of themselves over the internet. 

Professors Todd Mowry and Seth Goldstein of Carnegie Mellon University in
Pennsylvania think that, within a human generation, we might be able to
replicate three-dimensional objects out of a mass of material made up of
small synthetic "atoms". 

Cameras would capture the movement of an object or person and then this data
would be fed to the atoms, which would then assemble themselves to make up
an exact likeness of the object. 

They came up with the idea based on "claytronics," the animation technique
which involves slightly moving a model per frame to animate it. 

"We thought that a good analogy for what we were going to do was claymation
- something like the Wallace and Gromit shows," Dr Mowry told BBC World
Service's Outlook programme. 

"When you watch something created by claymation, it is a real object and it
looks like its moving itself. That's something like the idea we're doing...
in our case, the idea is that you have computation in the 'clay', as though
the clay can move itself. 

"So if it was a dog, and you want the dog to move, it will actually move
itself. But it is a physical object in front of you - it's not just a
picture or hologram or something like that." 

Special suit 

Fans of science fiction have long been interested in the idea of
teleportation - where an object, or even a human being, is transported from
one location to another instantaneously. 

Professor Goldstein has envisioned that, eventually, the objects will be
built with "nano-dust" - tiny objects that can be programmed to bind to each
other and move - but currently they are trying to build at a much larger
scale, working with objects the size of table-tennis balls. 

Their original plan was for the application to work in face-to-face
interaction. 

The technology mirrors that used to create the character of Gollum

"I'm in Pittsburgh, and you're in London. How do we make that happen?" Dr
Mowry said. 

"We can't teleport somebody - nobody's going to travel anywhere - but if
we're in our own rooms a system of cameras will capture exactly what's in
each room." 

He said that these cameras would work much the same way as the character of
Gollum was created by capturing the movements of actor Andy Serkis in the
Lord Of The Rings films. 

Mr Serkis wore a special suit and the cameras were able to interpret his
movements. 

"That information is turned into some representation - a three-dimensional
version of an mpeg [computer video file] - like a DVD," Dr Mowry added. 

"You capture it digitally, ship it over across the network, and then
reproduce a physical object that looks just like the original object, and
moves just like it." 

And he stressed this would be useful for much more than simple video
conferencing. 

"It's very artificial to talk to somebody through a glass wall, which is
effectively what you have when you have a screen," he added. 

"You want to forget the fact that you're in different rooms." 



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 22:11:06 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617085505.62406.qmail@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050617221106.66508.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

> >Alright. You place your hopes on being able to
> program
> >the A.I. to be nice to you. I'll place my efforts
> on
> >being smarter and more clever than the A.I. That's
> >just good advice from my friend Chuck Darwin.
>  
> You're dreaming.  A self-improving seed AI
> undergoing 'hard take-off' would surpass your
> intelligence level in minutes.  

No I'm not. I am just saying that any A.I. that claims
I am obsolescent would need to prove it to me
personally. In a fight to the death, you would be a
moron not to bet on yourself.

>  
> As to being nice, the 'Morality' modality seems to
> be a HUGE intellectual strong-point for me.  I
> believe I was born with a freak intuitive sense of
> morality which will enable me to swiftly cut through
> to the solution without much thought.  That's why
> I'll give Wilson, Yudkowsky and all the rest a run
> for their money.  It's not a symmetic situation.  I
> can get most of the answer to the problem of general
> intelligence simply by studying papers and books for
> a year or two.  The other AI researchers, on the
> other hand, won't find even rudimentary answers to
> morality anywhere.  Should be a good race. 
>  
> Hee hee
>  

Sometimes you guys crack me up. All this talk about
how mankind must break free of the mental shackles of
religion and superstition and yet you are all too
willing to bow down and worship a great golden
number-crunching calf of your own creation. Bring me
before your idol and I will break it. That is what
true iconoclasts do.
  

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 17 22:37:03 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617221106.66508.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050617223704.81511.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> No I'm not. I am just saying that any A.I. that
> claims
> I am obsolescent would need to prove it to me
> personally. 

Before the grammar nazis out there get a hold of this,
I meant to say "obsolete". :)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Jun 18 00:24:59 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:24:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] more language stuff
In-Reply-To: <200506172042.j5HKgZR11901@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050618002459.96977.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com>

--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> So why couldn't it be the other way?

Theoretically, no reason.  One could easily concoct a believable
hypothetical society where the female pronoun was the generic, from a
society that was dominated more by females than by males.  Indeed, I
would not be surprised if numerous examples of just that had been
written in the past century - although I am not immediately aware of
any.

> This whole sharing of pronouns situation reminds me of an 
> uncomfortable trend I have been seeing.  Instead of a mens 
> restroom with no queue and a women's restroom with a long 
> queue, many establishments are going to two unisex restrooms, 
> both with a queue.  Or one women's and one unisex.  The
> unjustice!  I will totally sue!

Nah.  Just economics: the mens' restrooms were being underused, but to
provide an uneven number would imply sexism.  Unisex restrooms have
their own problems, but they do solve those two problems.


From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Sat Jun 18 06:59:58 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:59:58 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
Message-ID: <20050618065958.48653.qmail@web31510.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>No I'm not. I am just saying that any A.I. that claims
>I am obsolescent would need to prove it to me
>personally. In a fight to the death, you would be a
>moron not to bet on yourself.
 
What are you talking about?  Just because something is smarter than you doesn't mean that you become 'obsolescent'.  And there need not be any 'fights to the death'.
 
>Sometimes you guys crack me up. All this talk about
>how mankind must break free of the mental shackles of
>religion and superstition and yet you are all too
>willing to bow down and worship a great golden
>number-crunching calf of your own creation. Bring me
>before your idol and I will break it. That is what
>true iconoclasts do.
 
I'm not one of those AI worshipping Singularitarian folks ;)  There's a bad vibe coming off those guys to be honest.  I just want to take a crack at building an AGI.  The Singualrity might happen or it might not.  I'm not interested in all that acopolyptic stuff.
 
P.S  I don't think that a real AGI would be a mere 'number cruncher' any more, and probably couldn't be easily described in terms of ordinary systems theory at all.  A real AGI is more than a mere computational model.  It's a superposition of what I call a 'Model' map (computational model) with a 'Morality' map (which uses new maths not known to the idiot-savants on SL4).  


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---
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From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Sat Jun 18 07:09:15 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:09:15 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
Message-ID: <20050618070915.55011.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>Without running and fully funding a goal oriented PAC with a set
>legislative agenda and election funds, we are going to get played at
>every corner by the luddites.
>
>Mike Lorrey
>Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
>"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
>It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
>Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
 
Correction...*you* are going to get played at every corner by the luddites.  I live in NZ.  There are no religious fundamentalists and federal agents in the middle of the Australian outback.  
 
Hee hee


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From velvethum at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 18 08:37:42 2005
From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Heartland)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:37:42 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
References: <20050618070915.55011.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-DAV15A5A7430A63E4EE51B416A7F70@phx.gbl>

> >Without running and fully funding a goal oriented PAC with a set
>>legislative agenda and election funds, we are going to get played at
>>every corner by the luddites.
>>
>>Mike Lorrey

Marc wrote:
> Correction...*you* are going to get played at every corner by the
> luddites.  I live in NZ.  There are no religious fundamentalists and
> federal agents in the middle of the Australian outback.
>
> Hee hee

Marc, you're blowing your cover by mentioning that outback again. If you
pose enough of a threat to feds, they may send an army of Steve Irwin clones 
to get you. :)

As far as timescale to Singularity goes, real AI, in theory, could happen
within years, but let's face it, when we subtract hope and hype from the
current AGI projects, we unfortunately must face the brutal fact that we
still have absolutely no tangible evidence (like a working prototype) to
believe that any of these projects are going to be successful. As aspiring
rationalist, in absence of any evidence that a particular theory of
intelligence works, I am justified in treating these projects as elaborate
hoaxes or exercises in egomania. And until one of these AI-from-scratch
projects presents compelling evidence that real AI is within reach, the only
type of an AI project that I'm going to treat seriously is one that aims to
reverse engineer human brain such as recently announced IBM project.

Slawek



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun 18 10:45:06 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:45:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050617221106.66508.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050617221106.66508.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D7DD8E79-EB57-4950-A338-E32B17D6BB60@mac.com>


On Jun 17, 2005, at 3:11 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>>> Alright. You place your hopes on being able to
>>>
>> program
>>
>>> the A.I. to be nice to you. I'll place my efforts
>>>
>> on
>>
>>> being smarter and more clever than the A.I. That's
>>> just good advice from my friend Chuck Darwin.
>>>
>>
>> You're dreaming.  A self-improving seed AI
>> undergoing 'hard take-off' would surpass your
>> intelligence level in minutes.
>>
>
> No I'm not. I am just saying that any A.I. that claims
> I am obsolescent would need to prove it to me
> personally. In a fight to the death, you would be a
> moron not to bet on yourself.

In other words you not only don't really believe you would actually  
be smarter, you actually believe you are doomed to or would choose a  
fight to the death with something you believe will be smarter than  
you. But you will pretend otherwise suspecting that will give you  
more of a chance.  Something being (a lot) more intelligent than you  
does not necessarily mean you are obsolescent or at least not in any  
way that will necessarily endanger anything other than your pride.

>
> Sometimes you guys crack me up. All this talk about
> how mankind must break free of the mental shackles of
> religion and superstition and yet you are all too
> willing to bow down and worship a great golden
> number-crunching calf of your own creation. Bring me
> before your idol and I will break it. That is what
> true iconoclasts do.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

- samantha


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 15:55:40 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050617115269dfd334@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050618155540.97500.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/17/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > 
> > This is highly dependent upon greater market achievements. The TCRA
> of
> > 1998 surely delayed the singularity by at least 5 to possibly 8 or
> more
> > years, simply because we should all be working off of fiber optic
> > internet connections rather than cable or DSL or T1. A factor of
> 100
> > difference in bandwidth is 8 Moore generations in bandwidth
> > development.
> > 
> 
> This delay only applies to the US, of course.

The US is still the majority of the network, and the majority of the
technology development. This may change, but other governments will
find they have as much interest in preventing their people from
avoiding taxation and staying outside their government money system.

> In a few years time, if the Chinese brute force AI on the much more
> powerful computers that will become available, then - game over.

This still doesn't mean desktop AI. I expect human level AIs on
supercomputers within the 2010-2015 time frame. Furthermore, the
Chinese have such onerous constraints on their internet that IMHO
concious thought across the network is impossible (i.e. search engines
don't allow you to search for the words "freedom" or "liberty" in
China, according to the latest stories).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 16:01:41 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0506171221179c35bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050618160141.7560.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> News item from 10 February 2005	
> 
> Major Milestones Passed
> The CUTE / ECTOS / STEP fleet has passed two important milestones:
>     * Just before the end of last year, the total mileage of the 33
> fuel cell buses amounted to 500.000 km.
>     * By the middle of January, the vehicles had been running for
> 40.000 hours since the beginning of operation.
> 
> All participating cities - Amsterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg, London,
> Luxembourg, Madrid, Perth, Porto, Reykjavik, Stockholm and Stuttgart
> -
> are very pleased about the progress of the three projects. Buses and
> infrastructure continue to operate reliably.

As I am likely the only member of this list who has worked for a bus
company, I can categorically say that these numbers are TERRIBLE. In
order for a bus to pay its way, it needs to operate at least 30,000
passenger miles per week. These buses so far appear to be merely
feel-good rolling photo-opportunities for politicians to point at.
500km for 33 fuel cell buses? That is 15km each for last year. 40 hours
of operation time? 

In my experience, buses that are used that infrequently are called
"garage queens" because their primary purpose is to serve as mobile
parts departments to be cannibalized for the real operating buses.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 16:05:04 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050618070915.55011.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050618160506.31567.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Marc Geddes <marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:

> >Without running and fully funding a goal oriented PAC with a set
> >legislative agenda and election funds, we are going to get played at
> >every corner by the luddites.
> >
> >Mike Lorrey
> >Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
> >                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
> >Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>  
> Correction...*you* are going to get played at every corner by the
> luddites.  I live in NZ.  There are no religious fundamentalists and
> federal agents in the middle of the Australian outback.  

You don't live in the outback either, and last I checked, NZ was
rabidly anti-nuke.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Sat Jun 18 16:17:32 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:17:32 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <20050618160141.7560.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050618160141.7560.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506181816280.18334@zeus>

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> News item from 10 February 2005
>>
>> Major Milestones Passed
>> The CUTE / ECTOS / STEP fleet has passed two important milestones:
>>     * Just before the end of last year, the total mileage of the 33
>> fuel cell buses amounted to 500.000 km.
>>     * By the middle of January, the vehicles had been running for
>> 40.000 hours since the beginning of operation.
>>
>> All participating cities - Amsterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg, London,
>> Luxembourg, Madrid, Perth, Porto, Reykjavik, Stockholm and Stuttgart
>> -
>> are very pleased about the progress of the three projects. Buses and
>> infrastructure continue to operate reliably.
>
>As I am likely the only member of this list who has worked for a bus
>company, I can categorically say that these numbers are TERRIBLE. In
>order for a bus to pay its way, it needs to operate at least 30,000
>passenger miles per week. These buses so far appear to be merely
>feel-good rolling photo-opportunities for politicians to point at.
>500km for 33 fuel cell buses? That is 15km each for last year. 40 hours
>of operation time?

Europeans use a dot to separate thousands. So those numbers are 500,000 km
and 40,000 hours in US notation.

Alfio


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Jun 18 16:25:14 2005
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:25:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <20050618160141.7560.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050618160141.7560.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0506181223250.-261831@pentium.mb.willtown.net>




On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > News item from 10 February 2005
> >
> > Major Milestones Passed
> > The CUTE / ECTOS / STEP fleet has passed two important milestones:
> >     * Just before the end of last year, the total mileage of the 33
> > fuel cell buses amounted to 500.000 km.
> >     * By the middle of January, the vehicles had been running for
> > 40.000 hours since the beginning of operation.


Um.. likely really means 500,000 km and 40,000 hours...

European terminology.
Regards,
MB



From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Jun 18 17:43:55 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:43:55 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>

I just watched the DVD of "Code 46", a movie that was released almost a 
year ago, and found it to be one of the most thoughtful science fiction 
movies I've seen in a long time.  Was it discussed on this list?


Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From brian at posthuman.com  Sat Jun 18 19:03:14 2005
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:03:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42B46FF2.4070603@posthuman.com>

Don't recall it being discussed. I previously noticed it and considered 
renting it, but the so-so reviews excluded it from entering my netflix 
queue. But I popped it in there at #1 now.
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 19:26:28 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:26:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] peak oil schmeak oil
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506181816280.18334@zeus>
Message-ID: <20050618192628.81390.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> >--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> News item from 10 February 2005
> >>
> >> Major Milestones Passed
> >> The CUTE / ECTOS / STEP fleet has passed two important milestones:
> >>     * Just before the end of last year, the total mileage of the
> 33
> >> fuel cell buses amounted to 500.000 km.
> >>     * By the middle of January, the vehicles had been running for
> >> 40.000 hours since the beginning of operation.
> >>
> >> All participating cities - Amsterdam, Barcelona, Hamburg, London,
> >> Luxembourg, Madrid, Perth, Porto, Reykjavik, Stockholm and
> Stuttgart
> >> -
> >> are very pleased about the progress of the three projects. Buses
> and
> >> infrastructure continue to operate reliably.
> >
> >As I am likely the only member of this list who has worked for a bus
> >company, I can categorically say that these numbers are TERRIBLE. In
> >order for a bus to pay its way, it needs to operate at least 30,000
> >passenger miles per week. These buses so far appear to be merely
> >feel-good rolling photo-opportunities for politicians to point at.
> >500km for 33 fuel cell buses? That is 15km each for last year. 40
> hours
> >of operation time?
> 
> Europeans use a dot to separate thousands. So those numbers are
> 500,000 km and 40,000 hours in US notation.

Thank you for that correction. This still isn't that great. 33 busses
doing 500,000km, which is about 300,000 miles, ergo each bus has done
about 9,000 miles, which is worth about 9 weeks of profitable use in my
experience. How long has this project been going on?

If they have not been using them at a profitable level, then they are
wasting energy.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Jun 18 19:37:12 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:37:12 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
	<42B46FF2.4070603@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c5743d$20932b30$6600a8c0@brainiac>

> Don't recall it being discussed. I previously noticed it and considered 
> renting it, but the so-so reviews excluded it from entering my netflix 
> queue. But I popped it in there at #1 now.

Not all were so-so:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040813/REVIEWS/408130301/1023

Besides, sometimes I think a really BAD movie is more entertaining than 
popular ones like "It's a Wonderful Life."

Olga 



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 18 19:59:48 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:59:48 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <000c01c5743d$20932b30$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <200506181959.j5IJxoR27471@tick.javien.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin
> 
> Besides, sometimes I think a really BAD movie is more entertaining than
> popular ones like "It's a Wonderful Life."
> 
> Olga

But Olga, Its a Wonderful Life *is* a really BAD movie.

I like it actually, it manages to tread a fine line.  It is
so gooey sweet, one knows not whether to tear up or barf.

I am a big fan of Jimmy Stewart: he gave up Hollywood to
join the Air Force when he was needed.  And other than that
time Mr. Potter kept the money that Uncle Billy dropped on 
him, which was rotten and evil, the grumpy old banker was 
a truly inspiring capitalist.  Note too, that in the alternate
universe where Mr. Potter owned Pottersville, there was a 
lot of libertarian freedom: notice the swinging dance clubs, etc.

spike






From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 18 21:20:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:20:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <000c01c5743d$20932b30$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050618212058.68353.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> Not all were so-so:
> 
>
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040813/REVIEWS/408130301/1023
> 
> Besides, sometimes I think a really BAD movie is more entertaining
> than popular ones like "It's a Wonderful Life."

"Army of Darkness" is a far better film. It is so bad, its good.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Jun 18 23:21:35 2005
From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:21:35 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <42B4AC7F.3050301@dsl.pipex.com>

Robin Hanson wrote:

> I just watched the DVD of "Code 46", a movie that was released almost 
> a year ago, and found it to be one of the most thoughtful science 
> fiction movies I've seen in a long time.  Was it discussed on this list?


I don't recall any discussion.  Although I had some problems with the 
film it did have some interesting ideas.  **SPOILERS**  I thought the 
behavioural modification through gene therapy was particularly well 
realised.  Both the "empathy virus" and the engineered aversion to 
sexual contact seem quite plausible.  However, I'm not quite sure why, 
in a world where I imagine they would be able to cure most hereditary 
diseases, they'd need to take such extreme precautions against "Code 46" 
violations.  (Perhaps I missed something.)  That said, the separate 
issues of using memory alteration and behavioural reprogramming in 
response to "crimes" and the perplexities of living in a world where 
reproductive technology is apparently so prevalent that 
genetic-similarity has become culturally meaningless were worth exploring.

BM


From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Jun 18 23:28:25 2005
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:28:25 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <42B4AC7F.3050301@dsl.pipex.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618132852.02e64050@mail.gmu.edu>
	<42B4AC7F.3050301@dsl.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618192503.01f108b8@mail.gmu.edu>

At 07:21 PM 6/18/2005, Bryan Moss wrote:
>>I just watched the DVD of "Code 46", a movie that was released almost a 
>>year ago, and found it to be one of the most thoughtful science fiction 
>>movies I've seen in a long time.  Was it discussed on this list?
>
>I don't recall any discussion.  Although I had some problems with the film 
>it did have some interesting ideas.  **SPOILERS**  I thought the 
>behavioural modification through gene therapy was particularly well 
>realised.  Both the "empathy virus" and the engineered aversion to sexual 
>contact seem quite plausible.  However, I'm not quite sure why, in a world 
>where I imagine they would be able to cure most hereditary diseases, 
>they'd need to take such extreme precautions against "Code 46" violations.

I agree.  That was the producers trying to push certain sex themes.

>That said, the separate issues of using memory alteration and behavioural 
>reprogramming in response to "crimes" and the perplexities of living in a 
>world where reproductive technology is apparently so prevalent that 
>genetic-similarity has become culturally meaningless were worth exploring.

It also seemed that there were a lot of dangerous possibly-engineered 
pathogens running around; three people who were forbidden to travel and 
then traveled illegally died soon as a consequence.  The social adaptations 
described to deal with this made some sense.



Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323 




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 03:22:39 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <42B4AC7F.3050301@dsl.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <20050619032239.82891.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Bryan Moss <bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Robin Hanson wrote:
> 
> > I just watched the DVD of "Code 46", a movie that was released
> almost 
> > a year ago, and found it to be one of the most thoughtful science 
> > fiction movies I've seen in a long time.  Was it discussed on this
> list?
> 
> 
> I don't recall any discussion.  Although I had some problems with the
> film it did have some interesting ideas.  **SPOILERS**  I thought the
> behavioural modification through gene therapy was particularly well 
> realised.  Both the "empathy virus" and the engineered aversion to 
> sexual contact seem quite plausible.  However, I'm not quite sure
> why, in a world where I imagine they would be able to cure most
> hereditary diseases, they'd need to take such extreme precautions
> against "Code 46" violations.  (Perhaps I missed something.)

The classical point of SF is to use a fictional universe to examine the
implications of a science or technology on society. In this case, the
fictional society is assumed by the writers to have retained a cultural
taboo against incest, which isn't a bad bet given its general
universality throughout history (excepting certain egyptian pharohs),
so how does that society deal with problems that technologies, like
cloning, cause when they run head to head with such cultural mores.
This is in keeping with, for instance, Soylent Green and Logans Run in
dealing with population pressure vs the assumed right to procreate.

The solution is obviously one in keeping with "Spotless Mind", "Total
Recall" in using memory editing to fix problems. Not a terribly bad
solution, but in this plot the obvious solution to the Robbins
character is to get himself edited rather than throw his life away, but
that isn't romantic, doesn't make for good film...

>  That said, the separate 
> issues of using memory alteration and behavioural reprogramming in 
> response to "crimes" and the perplexities of living in a world where 
> reproductive technology is apparently so prevalent that 
> genetic-similarity has become culturally meaningless were worth
> exploring.
> 
> BM
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 06:15:22 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <D7DD8E79-EB57-4950-A338-E32B17D6BB60@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050619061522.64809.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> In other words you not only don't really believe you
> would actually  
> be smarter, you actually believe you are doomed to
> or would choose a  
> fight to the death with something you believe will
> be smarter than  
> you.

No. You are reading too much into this. All I have
said is that I value my freedom over my life. And I
will not accept an AI in any more than an advisory
role in my life no matter how smart it is. There are
aspects of the human consciousness that I don't think
a machine can ever surpass no matter how "smart" it
is. When an AI paints the Sistine Chapel or "the
Scream", I will be impressed. I don't believe I am
doomed at all. Neither in a fight to the death, nor in
a game of go. I mean no more and no less. If some
entity whether it be a germ, beast, man, or machine
seeks to rob me of life or self-determination, then
let it come. I am ready. Let it match its will against
mine and let the universe decide. John Henry did not
beat the jackhammer but the whole point of the story
was that he ALMOST did and therefore COULD have. And
let no one forget that Kasparov did win a few games.  


> But you will pretend otherwise suspecting that
> will give you  
> more of a chance.

There is no pretense. Only emptiness and tranquility.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to
the strong. I have the chance that I have. How that
probability function will collapse is determined as
equally by my mind and will as by my opponent's. That
my opponent might be a machine with a 2000 IQ is
irrelevant.

> Something being (a lot) more
> intelligent than you  
> does not necessarily mean you are obsolescent or at
> least not in any  
> way that will necessarily endanger anything other
> than your pride.

It is not about pride, it is about self-determination
and free-will. I am happy to co-exist with an A.I.
that does not try to kill me or to control me, but it
would have to earn my trust. Should it prove itself to
me as a friend, I would even be inclined to do it
favors. But it goes no further than that.

> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about.

What part don't you understand? There are those
Singulatarians that would build an A.I. and try to put
it charge of everything. I disagree strongly with
this. An AI does not have the right to be in charge of
anything more or less than itself like any other
sentient being. We have not abolished gods and kings
only to be ruled by a unix box on steroids.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 19 06:45:06 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Code 46
In-Reply-To: <200506181959.j5IJxoR27471@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050619064506.24665.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> But Olga, Its a Wonderful Life *is* a really BAD
> movie.

Dammit, Spike. After your last post, I am confused. Do
you mean it was BAD? Or double-plus-ungood? *wicked
grin*





The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua  Sun Jun 19 06:22:14 2005
From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:22:14 +0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Bene Tleilaxu and your mitochondria
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc605061521462fb43edc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7641ddc605061521462fb43edc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050619102057.0360e9a0@pop.cris.net>

>I can send the pdf to
>anyone interested.

Rafal,

Please send the PDF file.

Thanks.

Gennady



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun 19 10:27:09 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:27:09 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050619061522.64809.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050619061522.64809.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <302EFECB-1A41-49DE-9A9D-EF32B7DD64C5@mac.com>


On Jun 18, 2005, at 11:15 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> In other words you not only don't really believe you
>> would actually
>> be smarter, you actually believe you are doomed to
>> or would choose a
>> fight to the death with something you believe will
>> be smarter than
>> you.
>>
>
> No. You are reading too much into this. All I have
> said is that I value my freedom over my life. And I
> will not accept an AI in any more than an advisory
> role in my life no matter how smart it is. There are
> aspects of the human consciousness that I don't think
> a machine can ever surpass no matter how "smart" it
> is.

So you don't consider yourself to be a biological machine.  How so?   
In what way are you not a machine?   How are the ways you are not a  
machine fundamentally unavailable to machines even if they become  
many orders of magnitude more intelligent than you and I?


> When an AI paints the Sistine Chapel or "the
> Scream", I will be impressed.

Some of the AI art and music even with very specialized non-AGI  
programs today convinces me that the day an AI impresses you is very  
near indeed.  Prepare to be taken far beyond being impressed to sheer  
awe not too far down the road.

> I don't believe I am
> doomed at all. Neither in a fight to the death, nor in
> a game of go. I mean no more and no less. If some
> entity whether it be a germ, beast, man, or machine
> seeks to rob me of life or self-determination, then
> let it come.

It seems it was you who cast it this way.

> I am ready. Let it match its will against
> mine and let the universe decide. John Henry did not
> beat the jackhammer but the whole point of the story
> was that he ALMOST did and therefore COULD have. And
> let no one forget that Kasparov did win a few games.

Is this a nerve getting hit?
>
>
>> But you will pretend otherwise suspecting that
>> will give you
>> more of a chance.
>>
>
> There is no pretense. Only emptiness and tranquility.
> The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to
> the strong. I have the chance that I have. How that
> probability function will collapse is determined as
> equally by my mind and will as by my opponent's. That
> my opponent might be a machine with a 2000 IQ is
> irrelevant.
>

In any contest where intelligence is the determining factor that is  
surely NOT irrelevant.  My point is that while the advent of such AIs  
may be a huge blow to our egos and self-image it need not be some war  
against what is.

>
>> Something being (a lot) more
>> intelligent than you
>> does not necessarily mean you are obsolescent or at
>> least not in any
>> way that will necessarily endanger anything other
>> than your pride.
>>
>
> It is not about pride, it is about self-determination
> and free-will.

How would it necessarily be any threat to those?

> I am happy to co-exist with an A.I.
> that does not try to kill me or to control me, but it
> would have to earn my trust.

I am sure the AI will be extremely eager to "earn your trust".  More  
likely you can either tilt at the windmill or find what place you can  
in the world with it.

> Should it prove itself to
> me as a friend, I would even be inclined to do it
> favors. But it goes no further than that.
>

It is highly unlikely that "friend" would be applicable to say a  
human vs ant level of difference.

>
>>
>> I have no idea what you are talking about.
>>
>
> What part don't you understand? There are those
> Singulatarians that would build an A.I. and try to put
> it charge of everything. I disagree strongly with
> this.

Please submit your proof that you and billions of mostly even more  
limited humans are capable of running this world sanely much less the  
increasingly complex world we are ever more quickly moving into.     
It will not be in charge of everything.  I doubt it will care a lot  
about your day to day affairs or mine.

> An AI does not have the right to be in charge of
> anything more or less than itself like any other
> sentient being.

Yep. That is what the ants said about us.  The trick is to do what we  
can to insure that the AIs are much more humane than we.

> We have not abolished gods and kings
> only to be ruled by a unix box on steroids.

Some day you will understand just how utterly inappropriate that  
rhetorical flourish is.

- samantha


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Mon Jun 20 02:34:09 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:34:09 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
Message-ID: <001301c57540$8a58f690$6600a8c0@brainiac>

Academic freedom at issue in this important lawsuit.

"The defamation case is an almost unheard-of attempt to punish academics for 
comments made in their professional capacity, said experts on libel law and 
academic freedom. Although UIC is not a defendant in the suit, officials 
there said they are so concerned about protecting scholarly speech that the 
school is picking up Olshansky's legal bills.":

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0506190345jun19,1,4537823.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Mon Jun 20 03:13:58 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:13:58 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <001301c57540$8a58f690$6600a8c0@brainiac>
References: <001301c57540$8a58f690$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <42B63476.3010209@humanenhancement.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Mon Jun 20 03:34:29 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:34:29 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
References: <001301c57540$8a58f690$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<42B63476.3010209@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c57548$f7a52ea0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

  From: Joseph Bloch 
  > Personally, I think it's good if snake-oil gets exposed. I want anti-aging treatments that are truly effective. If calling for people making claims of efficacy for anti-aging products to provide proof of such claims is defamation, then we need to re-define defamation. 

  I would like to see snakeoil get exposed, too.  

  However, it seems more and more scientific medicine is going to bed with "alternative medicine" these days.  And money seems to be at the root of this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin?

  Olga
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From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 04:16:58 2005
From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:16:58 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: CFP: IMAGINING THE FUTURE: UTOPIA,
	DYSTOPIA AND SCIENCE FICTION
In-Reply-To: <006101c57099$25e94940$d0bfc282@wcl11w813a>
References: <006101c57099$25e94940$d0bfc282@wcl11w813a>
Message-ID: <5844e22f05061921163b5a359f@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a conference of potential interest to H+ speakers. Much too far
for me, unfortunately.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dimitrios Vardoulakis <Dimitrios.Vardoulakis at arts.monash.edu.au>
Date: Jun 14, 2005 12:25 AM
Subject: CFP: IMAGINING THE FUTURE: UTOPIA, DYSTOPIA AND SCIENCE FICTION
To: PHILOS-L at liverpool.ac.uk


 
Conference Announcement and Call for Papers

IMAGINING THE FUTURE: UTOPIA, DYSTOPIA AND SCIENCE FICTION
6-7 December 2005

Centre for Comparative Literature and Cultural Studies
Monash University, Clayton Campus
Melbourne, Australia
 
Keynote Speaker:

FREDRIC JAMESON 
Distinguished Professor of Comparative Literature, Duke University

Other Speakers will include: 

Kate Rigby (Director, CCLCS), Andrew Milner (Professor of Cultural
Studies, CCLCS), Peter Fitting (Director of Cinema Studies, University
of Toronto), Ian Buchanan (Professor of Communications and Cultural
Studies, Charles Darwin University), Roland Boer (Logan Research Fellow,
Monash University) and Andrew Benjamin (Professor of Critical Theory,
CCLCS).

CONFERENCE WEBSITE:
http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/lcl/conferences/utopias/

In the 20th century earlier utopian traditions were progressively
displaced by supposedly more 'scientific' understandings of progress,
whether liberal, Fabian or Marxist. But in the 1960s utopian politics
re-emerged in and around the 'new social movements'. As with earlier
utopianisms, these found significant aesthetic expression in literary
science fiction, including the work of writers like Ursula Le Guin,
Joanna Russ, Marge Piercy, Samuel R. Delany and Kim Stanley Robinson.
Their most important philosophical expression came belatedly by way of
the Deleuzian influence on Hardt and Negri's Empire. In a 1982 essay for
Science Fiction Studies, Fredric Jameson famously defined the problem of
'Progress v. Utopia' through the question 'Can We Imagine the Future?'
Timed to coincide with the long-awaited publication of Archaeologies of
the Future, Jameson's full-length monograph on the subject, this
conference will return to the question of whether and how we can imagine
the future and whether or not such imaginings remain open to the
unforeseeable. 
 
The conference invites papers that will address these questions via the
themes of utopia, dystopia and science fiction.

ABSTRACTS

Abstracts (approx. 100-150 words) should be sent by 30 September 2005 by
e-mail to <utopias at arts.monash.edu.au> or by post to Utopias Conference,
Centre for Comparative Literature and Cultural Studies, Monash
University, Building 11, Melbourne, Victoria 3800, AUSTRALIA.

REGISTRATION

The conference will take place over two days.

Full registration for the two days costs $150, with a concessional price
for students and the non-employed of $75.
        
Registration for one day, either the 6th or 7th December, costs $80,
with a concessional price of $40.
        
All prices are GST inclusive.

Please make cheques payable to Monash University.

Registration forms may be downloaded in Acrobat PDF format [121 KB] or
as a Rich Text File [RTF format 3.29 MB] from:

http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/lcl/conferences/utopias/registration.html

Send cheques and registration forms by 31 October 2005 to:

Utopias Conference
Centre for Comparative Literature and Cultural Studies 
Building 11
Monash University
Victoria 3800
AUSTRALIA
 Messages to the list are archived at
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/philos-l.html. Prolonged
discussions should be moved to chora: enrol via
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/chora.html. Other philosophical
resources on the Web can be found at http://www.liv.ac.uk/pal.

-- 
Jeff Medina

Research Fellow
Institute for Ethics & Emerging Technologies
http://www.ieet.org/

Volunteer Coordinator
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 05:44:48 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <302EFECB-1A41-49DE-9A9D-EF32B7DD64C5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050620054448.25356.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> So you don't consider yourself to be a biological
> machine.  How so?   
> In what way are you not a machine?   How are the
> ways you are not a  
> machine fundamentally unavailable to machines even
> if they become  
> many orders of magnitude more intelligent than you
> and I?

Oh, I am certain that the monkey that carries my
wallet is a machine but I am far more.

> 
> 
> > When an AI paints the Sistine Chapel or "the
> > Scream", I will be impressed.
> 
> Some of the AI art and music even with very
> specialized non-AGI  
> programs today convinces me that the day an AI
> impresses you is very  
> near indeed.  Prepare to be taken far beyond being
> impressed to sheer  
> awe not too far down the road.

Well I can still tell the difference between human art
and machine art but I will give time the benefit of
the doubt and wait and see.

> > I am ready. Let it match its will against
> > mine and let the universe decide. John Henry did
> not
> > beat the jackhammer but the whole point of the
> story
> > was that he ALMOST did and therefore COULD have.
> And
> > let no one forget that Kasparov did win a few
> games.
> 
> Is this a nerve getting hit?

Yes. The non-existent AI has hurt my feelings. :)


> In any contest where intelligence is the determining
> factor that is  
> surely NOT irrelevant.  My point is that while the
> advent of such AIs  
> may be a huge blow to our egos and self-image it
> need not be some war  
> against what is.

The advent of AI will not be a blow to my ego as I
don't see a need to have one. When one finds out who
one really is, ego is pointless.


> How would it necessarily be any threat to those?

An AI would not be a threat to my free will or self
determination unless people try to make it one. 


> > I am happy to co-exist with an A.I.
> > that does not try to kill me or to control me, but
> it
> > would have to earn my trust.
> 
> I am sure the AI will be extremely eager to "earn
> your trust".  More  
> likely you can either tilt at the windmill or find
> what place you can  
> in the world with it.

I have my place in the world. I was here first. If the
A.I. wants to co-exist with me, it will have to find a
place in the world of its own. If it tries to take my
place in the world, there will be conflict and
resolution. That is the way of things. I don't tilt at
wind mills. If one was in my way, I could eliminate it
with stuff from my kitchen cabinets. 

> 
> > Should it prove itself to
> > me as a friend, I would even be inclined to do it
> > favors. But it goes no further than that.
> >
> 
> It is highly unlikely that "friend" would be
> applicable to say a  
> human vs ant level of difference.

      Well I don't have anything against ants as long
as they don't raid my sugar jar. In fact ants are very
cool. There are ants in the tropics called bullet ants
that can drop a full grown man with one bite (feels
like a bullet). Other ants farm aphids or fungus. Ants
are very complex and fascinating. I think you
underestimate them. Besides all I have to do to earn
an AI's respect is to defeat it at go and I feel that
is entirely within the realm of possibility.

> Please submit your proof that you and billions of
> mostly even more  
> limited humans are capable of running this world
> sanely much less the  
> increasingly complex world we are ever more quickly
> moving into.

      The world strikes me as still pretty sane. We've
got problems yes, but the ones that tell you that it
is spiralling out of control are the ones that are
trying to scare you into giving them yet more power
over you. About the only problem with the world is a
lack of vision. 
      Not that there are no visionaries in the world
but that the voices of the visionaries are drowned out
by the chanted mantras of the brainwashed masses. All
to the tune set by those mediocre souls that champion
the status quo. So power structures do not change
while the very essence of the world changes beneath
those structures.
      As you have obviously recognized this change has
been manifested as increased complexity. But this
complication of our lives is a choice. You speak as if
we have no choice as to whether or not to complicate
things further. The truth is we could make our lives
as simple as we choose to. And as far as proof that
humanity can manage the affairs of humanity better
than an AI, I have a deal for you. You show me a
subroutine for love, compassion, and courage and I
will show you proof that leadership takes more than
intelligence no matter how super-human.

> It will not be in charge of everything.  I doubt it
> will care a lot  
> about your day to day affairs or mine.

Good. Then there is hope for peaceful co-existence. Of
course my day to day affairs may not be quite on par
with everybody else's.

> 
> > An AI does not have the right to be in charge of
> > anything more or less than itself like any other
> > sentient being.
> 
> Yep. That is what the ants said about us.  The trick
> is to do what we  
> can to insure that the AIs are much more humane than
> we.

Again with the ants. :) Ants ARE cool aren't they? Did
you know that villagers in certain parts of Africa
routinely evacuate themselves and their livestock from
the path of approaching swarms of driver ants? They
come back after a few days and their homes are free of
vermin. Now that's peaceful co-existense. :) 

> > We have not abolished gods and kings
> > only to be ruled by a unix box on steroids.
> 
> Some day you will understand just how utterly
> inappropriate that  
> rhetorical flourish is.

Let us hope I am wrong. My vision of transhumanity is
that of us surpassing ourselves and guiding our own
evolution in an enlightened fashion. Not building our
replacements and handing them the keys to the kingdom.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua  Mon Jun 20 06:52:46 2005
From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:52:46 +0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Apology: Bene Tleilaxu and your mitochondria
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050619102057.0360e9a0@pop.cris.net>
References: <20050616041915.70328.qmail@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7641ddc605061521462fb43edc@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050619102057.0360e9a0@pop.cris.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620104055.0360b570@pop.cris.net>

At 10:22 19.06.05 +0400, I wrote:
>I can send the pdf to 
>anyone interested.

Rafal,
Please send the PDF file.
Thanks.

Gennady
=============== 
Apology to everyone. The request was intended to be sent to Rafal only, not 
to the list. I just somnambulistically hit the Reply button. Stupid me.

Gennady



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 09:05:59 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:05:59 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <001d01c57548$f7a52ea0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
References: <001301c57540$8a58f690$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<42B63476.3010209@humanenhancement.com>
	<001d01c57548$f7a52ea0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05062002051b06dad8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/05, Olga Bourlin wrote:
>     
> However, it seems more and more scientific medicine is going to bed with
> "alternative medicine" these days.  And money seems to be at the root of
> this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin? 
>   

See:
<http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/06/greatamerican.htm>

For Release: June 9, 2005 CORRECTED

FTC Targets Bogus Anti-Aging Claims for Pills and Sprays Promising
Human Growth Hormone Benefits

Settlement Provides Up To $20 Million In Consumer Redress

Two Florida businesses have agreed to a federal court order requiring
them to pay up to $20 million in consumer redress ? the largest
monetary judgment ever obtained in an FTC health fraud case ? to
settle charges that they deceptively claimed that their pills and
sprays would increase consumers' human growth hormone (HGH) levels and
provide anti-aging benefits, including weight loss and increased
cognitive function. In addition, the Commission has issued warning
letters to more than 90 Internet marketers making similar claims.

"Early explorers searched without success for a fountain of youth, and
modern marketers promise that it can be found in pills and sprays,"
said Lydia Parnes, Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer
Protection. "Those promises are illusory. Unfortunately, no pill or
spray can turn back the hands of time."

The complaint alleges that ads for the dietary supplements Ultimate
HGH and Super HGH Booster and the sublingual sprays Master HGH and
Super HGH promise that these products will significantly increase
growth hormone levels; provide the benefits purportedly shown in
various studies involving prescription-only HGH injections; and
provide physical benefits including reduced fat, cholesterol, and
blood pressure, increased muscle mass, and improved cognitive, immune,
and sexual function.
According to the FTC, these claims are false or unsubstantiated.

BillK


From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 20 09:29:15 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:29:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e05062002051b06dad8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050620092915.42453.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

the people claiming ineffective wonder drugs are our
worst enemies since they affect our credibility.
They must be exposed and persecuted.
--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> ha scritto: 

> On 6/20/05, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> >     
> > However, it seems more and more scientific
> medicine is going to bed with
> > "alternative medicine" these days.  And money
> seems to be at the root of
> > this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin? 
> >   
> 
> See:
> <http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/06/greatamerican.htm>
> 
> For Release: June 9, 2005 CORRECTED
> 
> FTC Targets Bogus Anti-Aging Claims for Pills and
> Sprays Promising
> Human Growth Hormone Benefits
> 
> Settlement Provides Up To $20 Million In Consumer
> Redress
> 
> Two Florida businesses have agreed to a federal
> court order requiring
> them to pay up to $20 million in consumer redress ?
> the largest
> monetary judgment ever obtained in an FTC health
> fraud case ? to
> settle charges that they deceptively claimed that
> their pills and
> sprays would increase consumers' human growth
> hormone (HGH) levels and
> provide anti-aging benefits, including weight loss
> and increased
> cognitive function. In addition, the Commission has
> issued warning
> letters to more than 90 Internet marketers making
> similar claims.
> 
> "Early explorers searched without success for a
> fountain of youth, and
> modern marketers promise that it can be found in
> pills and sprays,"
> said Lydia Parnes, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
> Consumer
> Protection. "Those promises are illusory.
> Unfortunately, no pill or
> spray can turn back the hands of time."
> 
> The complaint alleges that ads for the dietary
> supplements Ultimate
> HGH and Super HGH Booster and the sublingual sprays
> Master HGH and
> Super HGH promise that these products will
> significantly increase
> growth hormone levels; provide the benefits
> purportedly shown in
> various studies involving prescription-only HGH
> injections; and
> provide physical benefits including reduced fat,
> cholesterol, and
> blood pressure, increased muscle mass, and improved
> cognitive, immune,
> and sexual function.
> According to the FTC, these claims are false or
> unsubstantiated.
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
http://mail.yahoo.it


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 16:59:42 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050620092915.42453.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050620165942.66148.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You mean prosecuted? If they cannot support their claims for their
products with studies or trials, then the lack of such should be clear
in consumer reports from third parties. It isn't the job of government
to protect people from their own gullibility and ignorance. Caveat
emptor is the rule of the market. If people feel they are getting
shafted, they can launch a class action civil lawsuit against the
perpetrators.

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> the people claiming ineffective wonder drugs are our
> worst enemies since they affect our credibility.
> They must be exposed and persecuted.
> --- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> ha scritto: 
> 
> > On 6/20/05, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> > >     
> > > However, it seems more and more scientific
> > medicine is going to bed with
> > > "alternative medicine" these days.  And money
> > seems to be at the root of
> > > this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin? 
> > >   
> > 
> > See:
> > <http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/06/greatamerican.htm>
> > 
> > For Release: June 9, 2005 CORRECTED
> > 
> > FTC Targets Bogus Anti-Aging Claims for Pills and
> > Sprays Promising
> > Human Growth Hormone Benefits
> > 
> > Settlement Provides Up To $20 Million In Consumer
> > Redress
> > 
> > Two Florida businesses have agreed to a federal
> > court order requiring
> > them to pay up to $20 million in consumer redress ?
> > the largest
> > monetary judgment ever obtained in an FTC health
> > fraud case ? to
> > settle charges that they deceptively claimed that
> > their pills and
> > sprays would increase consumers' human growth
> > hormone (HGH) levels and
> > provide anti-aging benefits, including weight loss
> > and increased
> > cognitive function. In addition, the Commission has
> > issued warning
> > letters to more than 90 Internet marketers making
> > similar claims.
> > 
> > "Early explorers searched without success for a
> > fountain of youth, and
> > modern marketers promise that it can be found in
> > pills and sprays,"
> > said Lydia Parnes, Director of the FTC's Bureau of
> > Consumer
> > Protection. "Those promises are illusory.
> > Unfortunately, no pill or
> > spray can turn back the hands of time."
> > 
> > The complaint alleges that ads for the dietary
> > supplements Ultimate
> > HGH and Super HGH Booster and the sublingual sprays
> > Master HGH and
> > Super HGH promise that these products will
> > significantly increase
> > growth hormone levels; provide the benefits
> > purportedly shown in
> > various studies involving prescription-only HGH
> > injections; and
> > provide physical benefits including reduced fat,
> > cholesterol, and
> > blood pressure, increased muscle mass, and improved
> > cognitive, immune,
> > and sexual function.
> > According to the FTC, these claims are false or
> > unsubstantiated.
> > 
> > BillK
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 	
> 		
> ___________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From giogavir at yahoo.it  Mon Jun 20 17:48:10 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:48:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050620165942.66148.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050620174811.74097.qmail@web26210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

caveat emptor is valid but not in medicine.
isn'it FDA job to approve pharmaceuticals specialties?
--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto: 

> You mean prosecuted? If they cannot support their
> claims for their
> products with studies or trials, then the lack of
> such should be clear
> in consumer reports from third parties. It isn't the
> job of government
> to protect people from their own gullibility and
> ignorance. Caveat
> emptor is the rule of the market. If people feel
> they are getting
> shafted, they can launch a class action civil
> lawsuit against the
> perpetrators.
> 
> --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> 
> > the people claiming ineffective wonder drugs are
> our
> > worst enemies since they affect our credibility.
> > They must be exposed and persecuted.
> > --- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> ha scritto: 
> > 
> > > On 6/20/05, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> > > >     
> > > > However, it seems more and more scientific
> > > medicine is going to bed with
> > > > "alternative medicine" these days.  And money
> > > seems to be at the root of
> > > > this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin? 
> > > >   
> > > 
> > > See:
> > >
> <http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/06/greatamerican.htm>
> > > 
> > > For Release: June 9, 2005 CORRECTED
> > > 
> > > FTC Targets Bogus Anti-Aging Claims for Pills
> and
> > > Sprays Promising
> > > Human Growth Hormone Benefits
> > > 
> > > Settlement Provides Up To $20 Million In
> Consumer
> > > Redress
> > > 
> > > Two Florida businesses have agreed to a federal
> > > court order requiring
> > > them to pay up to $20 million in consumer
> redress ?
> > > the largest
> > > monetary judgment ever obtained in an FTC health
> > > fraud case ? to
> > > settle charges that they deceptively claimed
> that
> > > their pills and
> > > sprays would increase consumers' human growth
> > > hormone (HGH) levels and
> > > provide anti-aging benefits, including weight
> loss
> > > and increased
> > > cognitive function. In addition, the Commission
> has
> > > issued warning
> > > letters to more than 90 Internet marketers
> making
> > > similar claims.
> > > 
> > > "Early explorers searched without success for a
> > > fountain of youth, and
> > > modern marketers promise that it can be found in
> > > pills and sprays,"
> > > said Lydia Parnes, Director of the FTC's Bureau
> of
> > > Consumer
> > > Protection. "Those promises are illusory.
> > > Unfortunately, no pill or
> > > spray can turn back the hands of time."
> > > 
> > > The complaint alleges that ads for the dietary
> > > supplements Ultimate
> > > HGH and Super HGH Booster and the sublingual
> sprays
> > > Master HGH and
> > > Super HGH promise that these products will
> > > significantly increase
> > > growth hormone levels; provide the benefits
> > > purportedly shown in
> > > various studies involving prescription-only HGH
> > > injections; and
> > > provide physical benefits including reduced fat,
> > > cholesterol, and
> > > blood pressure, increased muscle mass, and
> improved
> > > cognitive, immune,
> > > and sexual function.
> > > According to the FTC, these claims are false or
> > > unsubstantiated.
> > > 
> > > BillK
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 	
> > 
> > 	
> > 		
> > ___________________________________ 
> > Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati
> da 10MB 
> > http://mail.yahoo.it
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt
> (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
http://mail.yahoo.it


From astapp at amazeent.com  Mon Jun 20 20:13:40 2005
From: astapp at amazeent.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:13:40 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE039659CE@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

From: giorgio gaviraghi
> caveat emptor is valid but not in medicine.

Why not? Are we really so stupid that we can't make our
own medical decisions without the oversight of a gigantic
governmental regulatory body? I'm not.

> isn'it FDA job to approve pharmaceuticals specialties?

Safety and efficacy tests could be done more cheaply and 
effectively by private industry. I imagine the UL
(Underwriter's Labs) and others would be more than happy 
to provide this service if it were not being provided
under legal monopoly by government agencies.

Acy


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 20:38:11 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE039659CE@amazemail2.amazeent.com>
Message-ID: <20050620203811.10321.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Acy James Stapp <astapp at amazeent.com> wrote:

> Why not? Are we really so stupid that we can't make
> our
> own medical decisions without the oversight of a
> gigantic
> governmental regulatory body? I'm not.

The FDA exists to protect the rubes. You don't need it
but the rubes do.


 
> > isn'it FDA job to approve pharmaceuticals
> specialties?
> 
> Safety and efficacy tests could be done more cheaply
> and 
> effectively by private industry. I imagine the UL
> (Underwriter's Labs) and others would be more than
> happy 
> to provide this service if it were not being
> provided
> under legal monopoly by government agencies.

More cheaply yes and very probably much more quickly
as well but nowhere as near as completely nor as
objectively. Not there is no corruption in the FDA,
but at least the mission statement of the FDA is not
"find data to support the efficacy and safety of our
client's product."

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 20 22:29:06 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:29:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050620203811.10321.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050620203811.10321.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0E0857D2-309A-433D-9B66-58BBE51DDAEA@mac.com>


On Jun 20, 2005, at 1:38 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Acy James Stapp <astapp at amazeent.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Why not? Are we really so stupid that we can't make
>> our
>> own medical decisions without the oversight of a
>> gigantic
>> governmental regulatory body? I'm not.
>>
>
> The FDA exists to protect the rubes. You don't need it
> but the rubes do.
>

It does not require a government body to accomplish this.

>
>
>
>>> isn'it FDA job to approve pharmaceuticals
>>>
>> specialties?
>>
>> Safety and efficacy tests could be done more cheaply
>> and
>> effectively by private industry. I imagine the UL
>> (Underwriter's Labs) and others would be more than
>> happy
>> to provide this service if it were not being
>> provided
>> under legal monopoly by government agencies.
>>
>
> More cheaply yes and very probably much more quickly
> as well but nowhere as near as completely nor as
> objectively.

This is an empty assertion.  The private UL would be relatively  
immune to politics and likely to be run much more efficiently.  As  
its sole stock in trade is its reputation I would expect it to be  
more thorough and dependable rather than less.

> Not there is no corruption in the FDA,
> but at least the mission statement of the FDA is not
> "find data to support the efficacy and safety of our
> client's product."
>

Why on earth do you believe that would be the mission statement of a  
private organization performing equivalent tasks?

- samantha


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 20 22:37:45 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:37:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050620174811.74097.qmail@web26210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050620223745.44631.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Doesn't mean that the FDA is constitutional. Why isn't caveat emptor
not valid in medicine? Physician malpractice is the biggest cause of
accidental death while being the most regulated profession. Five times
more people die from malpractice than from car accidents.

--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> caveat emptor is valid but not in medicine.
> isn'it FDA job to approve pharmaceuticals specialties?
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> ha scritto: 
> 
> > You mean prosecuted? If they cannot support their
> > claims for their
> > products with studies or trials, then the lack of
> > such should be clear
> > in consumer reports from third parties. It isn't the
> > job of government
> > to protect people from their own gullibility and
> > ignorance. Caveat
> > emptor is the rule of the market. If people feel
> > they are getting
> > shafted, they can launch a class action civil
> > lawsuit against the
> > perpetrators.
> > 
> > --- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:
> > 
> > > the people claiming ineffective wonder drugs are
> > our
> > > worst enemies since they affect our credibility.
> > > They must be exposed and persecuted.
> > > --- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> ha scritto: 
> > > 
> > > > On 6/20/05, Olga Bourlin wrote:
> > > > >     
> > > > > However, it seems more and more scientific
> > > > medicine is going to bed with
> > > > > "alternative medicine" these days.  And money
> > > > seems to be at the root of
> > > > > this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin? 
> > > > >   
> > > > 
> > > > See:
> > > >
> > <http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/06/greatamerican.htm>
> > > > 
> > > > For Release: June 9, 2005 CORRECTED
> > > > 
> > > > FTC Targets Bogus Anti-Aging Claims for Pills
> > and
> > > > Sprays Promising
> > > > Human Growth Hormone Benefits
> > > > 
> > > > Settlement Provides Up To $20 Million In
> > Consumer
> > > > Redress
> > > > 
> > > > Two Florida businesses have agreed to a federal
> > > > court order requiring
> > > > them to pay up to $20 million in consumer
> > redress ?
> > > > the largest
> > > > monetary judgment ever obtained in an FTC health
> > > > fraud case ? to
> > > > settle charges that they deceptively claimed
> > that
> > > > their pills and
> > > > sprays would increase consumers' human growth
> > > > hormone (HGH) levels and
> > > > provide anti-aging benefits, including weight
> > loss
> > > > and increased
> > > > cognitive function. In addition, the Commission
> > has
> > > > issued warning
> > > > letters to more than 90 Internet marketers
> > making
> > > > similar claims.
> > > > 
> > > > "Early explorers searched without success for a
> > > > fountain of youth, and
> > > > modern marketers promise that it can be found in
> > > > pills and sprays,"
> > > > said Lydia Parnes, Director of the FTC's Bureau
> > of
> > > > Consumer
> > > > Protection. "Those promises are illusory.
> > > > Unfortunately, no pill or
> > > > spray can turn back the hands of time."
> > > > 
> > > > The complaint alleges that ads for the dietary
> > > > supplements Ultimate
> > > > HGH and Super HGH Booster and the sublingual
> > sprays
> > > > Master HGH and
> > > > Super HGH promise that these products will
> > > > significantly increase
> > > > growth hormone levels; provide the benefits
> > > > purportedly shown in
> > > > various studies involving prescription-only HGH
> > > > injections; and
> > > > provide physical benefits including reduced fat,
> > > > cholesterol, and
> > > > blood pressure, increased muscle mass, and
> > improved
> > > > cognitive, immune,
> > > > and sexual function.
> > > > According to the FTC, these claims are false or
> > > > unsubstantiated.
> > > > 
> > > > BillK
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 	
> > > 
> > > 	
> > > 		
> > > ___________________________________ 
> > > Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati
> > da 10MB 
> > > http://mail.yahoo.it
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> > human freedom.
> > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> > slaves."
> >                                       -William Pitt
> > (1759-1806) 
> > Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 	
> 		
> ___________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
> http://mail.yahoo.it
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


	
		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 20 23:04:00 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:04:00 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity
In-Reply-To: <20050620054448.25356.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050620054448.25356.qmail@web60519.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BDFAB6D1-74E5-456C-A630-12B39A5E8A1C@mac.com>


On Jun 19, 2005, at 10:44 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> So you don't consider yourself to be a biological
>> machine.  How so?
>> In what way are you not a machine?   How are the
>> ways you are not a
>> machine fundamentally unavailable to machines even
>> if they become
>> many orders of magnitude more intelligent than you
>> and I?
>>
>
> Oh, I am certain that the monkey that carries my
> wallet is a machine but I am far more.

if so then why can this purported "far more" not have "its wallet  
carried" by a far more intelligent "monkey"?

>
>> In any contest where intelligence is the determining
>> factor that is
>> surely NOT irrelevant.  My point is that while the
>> advent of such AIs
>> may be a huge blow to our egos and self-image it
>> need not be some war
>> against what is.
>>
>
> The advent of AI will not be a blow to my ego as I
> don't see a need to have one. When one finds out who
> one really is, ego is pointless.

Then "you" cannot be threatened at all and I see no point in your  
having started this thread of discussion as you did.

>
>
>
>> How would it necessarily be any threat to those?
>>
>
> An AI would not be a threat to my free will or self
> determination unless people try to make it one.

 From what you say above you cannot be threatened or touched.  Only  
your "monkey" can.  So what is the big deal?
>

>
>> Please submit your proof that you and billions of
>> mostly even more
>> limited humans are capable of running this world
>> sanely much less the
>> increasingly complex world we are ever more quickly
>> moving into.
>>
>
>       The world strikes me as still pretty sane. We've
> got problems yes, but the ones that tell you that it
> is spiralling out of control are the ones that are
> trying to scare you into giving them yet more power
> over you. About the only problem with the world is a
> lack of vision.

Given current relatively fixed levels of individual and collective  
intelligence it is quite clear that there is a limit to what that  
level of intelligence can effectively deal with.  It is also clear  
that the world is becoming more complex and moving at an accelerated  
rateof change.  It is also clear that only a major deadly disaster  
would decrease that rate of change.  Thus it seems clear that we are  
or are headed toward spiraling out of control.

>
>       Not that there are no visionaries in the world
> but that the voices of the visionaries are drowned out
> by the chanted mantras of the brainwashed masses. All
> to the tune set by those mediocre souls that champion
> the status quo. So power structures do not change
> while the very essence of the world changes beneath
> those structures.

Which is a restatement of the fact of our limitation in the face of  
what the world is and what it is becoming and the speed at which it  
is doing so.

>       As you have obviously recognized this change has
> been manifested as increased complexity. But this
> complication of our lives is a choice. You speak as if
> we have no choice as to whether or not to complicate
> things further.

Short of a major calamity knocking us severely backward  
technologically we have no choice.

> The truth is we could make our lives
> as simple as we choose to.

I think you jumped out of context here.


> And as far as proof that
> humanity can manage the affairs of humanity better
> than an AI, I have a deal for you. You show me a
> subroutine for love, compassion, and courage and I
> will show you proof that leadership takes more than
> intelligence no matter how super-human.
>

I am sorry to disturb your  denial.  I have no idea how far human  
intelligence and effective group intelligence and rationality can be  
raised.  But I am certain that the current levels are proving grossly  
inadequate.  I would hate to see the same be the best we have to deal  
with say MNT.   Subroutine?  Check out the human implementation of  
such things.  These sloppy evolved biological implementations are not  
so terribly dependable.

>
>>> We have not abolished gods and kings
>>> only to be ruled by a unix box on steroids.
>>>
>>
>> Some day you will understand just how utterly
>> inappropriate that
>> rhetorical flourish is.
>>
>
> Let us hope I am wrong. My vision of transhumanity is
> that of us surpassing ourselves and guiding our own
> evolution in an enlightened fashion. Not building our
> replacements and handing them the keys to the kingdom.
>

Then we become less and less evolved chimps.  We become our own  
replacements.  Whether that Other has the imprint of you or I or a  
once human or not the days of humanity as we know it are numbered.

- samantha


From neptune at superlink.net  Tue Jun 21 01:12:02 2005
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:12:02 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
References: <20050620203811.10321.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004201c575fe$3c060e60$98893cd1@pavilion>

On Monday, June 20, 2005 4:38 PM The Avantguardian
avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com wrote:
>> Why not? Are we really so stupid that we can't make
>> our
>> own medical decisions without the oversight of a
>> gigantic
>> governmental regulatory body? I'm not.
>
> The FDA exists to protect the rubes. You don't
> need it but the rubes do.

No, I think given the FDA's record and impact on the health industry, it
really exists to protect the big pharmas.  Yes, it punishes them, but
its overall impact is to stifle innovation and competition.

>> Safety and efficacy tests could be done more cheaply
>> and
>> effectively by private industry. I imagine the UL
>> (Underwriter's Labs) and others would be more than
>> happy
>> to provide this service if it were not being
>> provided
>> under legal monopoly by government agencies.
>
> More cheaply yes and very probably much more quickly
> as well but nowhere as near as completely nor as
> objectively. Not there is no corruption in the FDA,
> but at least the mission statement of the FDA is not
> "find data to support the efficacy and safety of our
> client's product."

The FDA does not actually do the testing to begin with.  In fact, big
pharmas farm out the medical testing and provide the data to the FDA.
Seems to me this would be no different than just doing this without the
FDA.

Regards,

Dan
 See the "Form and Content in Poetry: A Reply to Jackie van Oostrom" at:
http://uweb.superlink.net/~neptune/Poetry.html



From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Jun 21 01:13:31 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:13:31 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <001d01c57548$f7a52ea0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-AFC39087E1F111D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/19/05 20:34) Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:


>
>  However, it seems more and more scientific medicine is going to bed with "alternative medicine" these days.  And money seems to be at the root of this phenomenon.  So, where do we begin?
>


Start with where the value is, just like with any other business effort.  What you call "scientific medicine," which I assume means the modern medical establishment, has an ample track record of sacrificing science for profits.  This has lead to a not-undeserved reputation in public opinion.  The value that these companies see in 'alternative' medicine is that they can sell it just as easily.

Think about it:  You have two treatments that have a fair amount of uncertainty in their efficacy. One of them suffers from bad PR and will cost billions of dollars to develop.  The other has relatively good PR and will cost millions of dollars to develop. Which would YOU choose if you were a "business" person?

Ethics and intellectual integrity. 

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 01:40:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <004201c575fe$3c060e60$98893cd1@pavilion>
Message-ID: <20050621014053.62865.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:

> On Monday, June 20, 2005 4:38 PM The Avantguardian
> > More cheaply yes and very probably much more quickly
> > as well but nowhere as near as completely nor as
> > objectively. Not there is no corruption in the FDA,
> > but at least the mission statement of the FDA is not
> > "find data to support the efficacy and safety of our
> > client's product."
> 
> The FDA does not actually do the testing to begin with.  In fact, big
> pharmas farm out the medical testing and provide the data to the FDA.
> Seems to me this would be no different than just doing this without
> the FDA.

Actually, private industry consumer protection would be better than the
FDA. Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports, Insurance Institute,
and Electrical Testing Laboratories all do their own testing of
manufacturers products, to their own standards. Consumer Reports
publishes comparisons, even, so you know which product is better, more
cost effective, less dangerous, etc. As some of the names above
indicate, the insurance industry has a vested interest in seeing that
products are tested. One reason that health costs are rising so quickly
MAY be because govt regulated drugs are not held to as high a standard
as they would be if they were privately tested, leading to deaths and
injuries from complications, drug conflicts, as well as possibly a
complete lack of real effectiveness.

Drug companies disparage the FDA NOT because they require too much
testing, but because they take too long to approve a drug. Time in the
bureucratic pipeline does not equate to safety or sufficient testing.
The public would be better served by abolishing the FDA and simply
requiring a much higher level of testing, performed by third party
laboratories that establish their own testing standards like UL, ETL,
CS, and the II do.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 21 08:59:59 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:59:59 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621014053.62865.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <004201c575fe$3c060e60$98893cd1@pavilion>
	<20050621014053.62865.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05062101592a7d0ffe@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> Actually, private industry consumer protection would be better than the
> FDA. Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports, Insurance Institute,
> and Electrical Testing Laboratories all do their own testing of
> manufacturers products, to their own standards. Consumer Reports
> publishes comparisons, even, so you know which product is better, more
> cost effective, less dangerous, etc. As some of the names above
> indicate, the insurance industry has a vested interest in seeing that
> products are tested. One reason that health costs are rising so quickly
> MAY be because govt regulated drugs are not held to as high a standard
> as they would be if they were privately tested, leading to deaths and
> injuries from complications, drug conflicts, as well as possibly a
> complete lack of real effectiveness.
> 
> Drug companies disparage the FDA NOT because they require too much
> testing, but because they take too long to approve a drug. Time in the
> bureucratic pipeline does not equate to safety or sufficient testing.
> The public would be better served by abolishing the FDA and simply
> requiring a much higher level of testing, performed by third party
> laboratories that establish their own testing standards like UL, ETL,
> CS, and the II do.
> 

The report I quoted was from the FTC. Yes, yet another government agency. :)

The Federal Trade Commission site says:
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) works to ensure that the nation's
markets are vigorous, efficient and free of restrictions that harm
consumers. Experience demonstrates that competition among firms yields
products at the lowest prices, spurs innovation and strengthens the
economy. Markets also work best when consumers can make informed
choices based on accurate information.

To ensure the smooth operation of our free market system, the FTC
enforces federal consumer protection laws that prevent fraud,
deception and unfair business practices. The Commission also enforces
federal antitrust laws that prohibit anticompetitive mergers and other
business practices that restrict competition and harm consumers.
Whether combating telemarketing fraud, Internet scams or price-fixing
schemes, the FTC's primary mission is to protect consumers.
--------------------------

The $20 million fine was because of fraud, deception and unfair
business practices.
You can't sue for damages if you are dead. Similarly you can't sue for
damages if the fraudsters have closed the company and opened up
elsewhere with a different name and a different scam.

By going the private route of insurance policies and consumer
education you are transferring a vast workload on to every member of
the population. I would much prefer to let a government agency worry
about chasing the bad guys. I have plenty to worry about already,
without having to investigate the truth of every advert or analyse
carefully every future purchase.

The majority of the population are not interested in insurance
policies, consumer reports, science investigations, etc. They watch
the ball game and buy what the adverts tell them to. They are entitled
to do that in reasonable safety. We shouldn't have to live in a world
where every advert is a possible attack by a fraudster and every
product on sale might be a scam.


BillK


From gingell at gnat.com  Tue Jun 21 13:56:44 2005
From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:56:44 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e05062101592a7d0ffe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004201c575fe$3c060e60$98893cd1@pavilion>
	<20050621014053.62865.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<ee50357e05062101592a7d0ffe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44BAE62D-E416-4D58-95AA-454E7BBFDAF5@gnat.com>


On Jun 21, 2005, at 4:59 AM, BillK wrote:

> The $20 million fine was because of fraud, deception and unfair
> business practices.
> You can't sue for damages if you are dead.

But you can! One possibility is that, if we were to make the right to  
sue for damages a marketable good, you could sell the right to  
collect in the event of your wrongful death to a third party and  
enjoy the judgement while you are still alive. Say I have a one in  
ten thousand chance of being killed wrongfully and my estate being  
awarded a ten million dollar judgement: I ought to be able to sell  
that right to a "reverse insurance company" for a thousand dollars  
and go out and spend it on something fun today.

More important than cash in hand though, there is now an agent very  
much interested in going after whatever wrong-doer has prematurely  
ended my life, and you would expect this to provide a powerful  
disincentive to product manufacturers looking to cut corners at the  
cost of increased risk to me.

Now, whether I really wants a huge reverse-insurance corporation to  
have a ten million dollar interest is seeing something horrible  
happen to me is another question entirely...

> Similarly you can't sue for
> damages if the fraudsters have closed the company and opened up
> elsewhere with a different name and a different scam.

That's right - and I think this is part of the rationale for making  
fraud a criminal rather than a civil matter. If you and I have an  
honest dispute over the performance of a contract that's an  
appropriate thing to bring before a court together and negotiate, but  
if you cash my check and disappear in the middle of the night then  
that's a simple theft and we are no longer in the voluntary exchange  
business.

> By going the private route of insurance policies and consumer
> education you are transferring a vast workload on to every member of
> the population. I would much prefer to let a government agency worry
> about chasing the bad guys. I have plenty to worry about already,
> without having to investigate the truth of every advert or analyse
> carefully every future purchase.

And it's a workload people in general are extremely poorly suited to.  
If there's one thing that people do consistently badly it's risk  
management... It's not too hard to find people who won't, for  
instance, vacation in Florida because they're afraid of sharks yet  
thing they're doing something positive for their health by spending  
every Saturday riding around their bicycle without a helmet on. I  
think this is one of the strongest arguments for taking this  
responsibility out of the hands of individuals and leaving it to cold- 
blooded government technocrats.

Government agencies like the FDA are not without their own problems  
though. One persistent criticism of the FDA is that they are  
excessively risk averse and refuse to approve drugs which might well  
help some very sick people. This makes sense from an incentives  
perspective: In the last few years we have had some very big public  
scandals over drugs the FDA has approved which turned out to be  
harmful, but in my lifetime I can not recall a single major fuss over  
a drug which was effective but which the FDA did not approve. Holding  
an effective drug off the market kills people just as surely as  
allowing the sale of a dangerous one, but if the FDA is only going to  
be "punished" for mistakes in one direction we would expect them to  
strike a lopsided balance between those two alternatives.

> The majority of the population are not interested in insurance
> policies, consumer reports, science investigations, etc. They watch
> the ball game and buy what the adverts tell them to. They are entitled
> to do that in reasonable safety. We shouldn't have to live in a world
> where every advert is a possible attack by a fraudster and every
> product on sale might be a scam.

Absolutely, and that's the outcome that everybody can agree is  
desirable. The only debate I see is how to achieve that outcome at  
the minimal cost both in terms of economics and liberty.

Matt




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 21 14:52:25 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:52:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] P.K.D. Droid
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621095019.01d3e388@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

Good grief:

http://www.pkdandroid.org/



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Tue Jun 21 15:19:48 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:19:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British Producer/Director
	Interviewing Teenagers on Future
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e0506210819193e488c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/16/05, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>  Friends,
> 
>  I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to interview
> teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive effects of change
> on culture and, especially, the fact that they may live beyond 100 years old
> and what this means to their generation.
> 
>  If you have teenagers or if you know of teenagers who are futurists and/or
> transhumanists with a positive extropic point of view about the future,
> including a view that applies critical thinking to his or her concerns and
> would like to be in a film, please contact me at your earliest convenience. 

Natasha,

I sent a reply on this off-list the other day, did you get it?

- Russell


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 15:29:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e05062101592a7d0ffe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050621152953.86107.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote: 
> The majority of the population are not interested in insurance
> policies, consumer reports, science investigations, etc. They watch
> the ball game and buy what the adverts tell them to. They are
> entitled
> to do that in reasonable safety. We shouldn't have to live in a world
> where every advert is a possible attack by a fraudster and every
> product on sale might be a scam.

No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you engage
in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of fraudsters
if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty products.
Frauders abound in the email world.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Jun 21 15:32:23 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:32:23 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British
	Producer/DirectorInterviewing Teenagers on Future
Message-ID: <410-220056221153223421@M2W126.mail2web.com>

This message is for Russell and everyone who has responded.  The producer
just wants teenagers and in Austin, since it is where MTV is shooting and
is a center for music and culture, and/or if there is a formed "group" of
teens who are interested in social structures, economics and the effects of
aging on their generation.

Many thanks!
Natasha

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Russell Wallace russell.wallace at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:19:48 +0100
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British
Producer/DirectorInterviewing Teenagers on Future


On 6/16/05, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>  Friends,
> 
>  I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to interview
> teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive effects of
change
> on culture and, especially, the fact that they may live beyond 100 years
old
> and what this means to their generation.
> 
>  If you have teenagers or if you know of teenagers who are futurists
and/or
> transhumanists with a positive extropic point of view about the future,
> including a view that applies critical thinking to his or her concerns and
> would like to be in a film, please contact me at your earliest
convenience. 

Natasha,

I sent a reply on this off-list the other day, did you get it?

- Russell
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 15:34:46 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:34:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <44BAE62D-E416-4D58-95AA-454E7BBFDAF5@gnat.com>
Message-ID: <20050621153446.21572.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Matthew Gingell <gingell at gnat.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 21, 2005, at 4:59 AM, BillK wrote:
> 
> > The $20 million fine was because of fraud, deception and unfair
> > business practices.
> > You can't sue for damages if you are dead.
> 
> But you can! 

Bill is quite wrong here. You personally may not see an award, but your
estate can certainly sue for wrongful death, defective product, etc and
people do it all the time.

> 
> > Similarly you can't sue for
> > damages if the fraudsters have closed the company and opened up
> > elsewhere with a different name and a different scam.
> 
> That's right - and I think this is part of the rationale for making  
> fraud a criminal rather than a civil matter. 

Bill is also wrong here. If corporate officers operate illegally, the
corporate veil is pierced and the owners can be gotten to personally.
It doesn't matter if they set up shop elsewhere, they can be tracked
down and held responsible. It happens every day today.

> 
> > By going the private route of insurance policies and consumer
> > education you are transferring a vast workload on to every member
> of
> > the population. I would much prefer to let a government agency
> worry
> > about chasing the bad guys. I have plenty to worry about already,
> > without having to investigate the truth of every advert or analyse
> > carefully every future purchase.
> 
> And it's a workload people in general are extremely poorly suited to.

Bullshit. Consumers are all quite capable of analysing value if they
choose to. Furthermore, individual consumers don't have to do the
analysis alone, that is what Consumer Reports and other independent
agencies do, they do the analysis for you. Nor do cheated consumers
have to pursue justice alone, that is what class action lawsuits are
for: leaving the work to the legal experts. So Bill is exactly wrong on
every point here.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Jun 21 16:19:13 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:19:13 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621152953.86107.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-3552D182E27011D9B087000393A47D36@[68.243.9.110]>

 (6/21/05 8:29) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you engage
>in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
>protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of fraudsters
>if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
>those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
>scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty products.
>Frauders abound in the email world.


Of course, you discount the cost of all of this.  Not in terms of 'chilling effect,' but in terms of precious, valuable time.  How on earth am I supposed to have time to contribute in a meaningful economic way when I'm in court battling everyone under the sun.

This particular vision of "Libertarian Utopia" seems particularly stupid to me.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 17:24:23 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:24:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-3552D182E27011D9B087000393A47D36@[68.243.9.110]>
Message-ID: <20050621172423.99515.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:

>  (6/21/05 8:29) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you
> engage
> >in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
> >protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of
> fraudsters
> >if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
> >those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
> >scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty
> products.
> >Frauders abound in the email world.
> 
> 
> Of course, you discount the cost of all of this.  Not in terms of
> 'chilling effect,' but in terms of precious, valuable time.  How on
> earth am I supposed to have time to contribute in a meaningful
> economic way when I'm in court battling everyone under the sun.
> 
> This particular vision of "Libertarian Utopia" seems particularly
> stupid to me.

It is only the lack of legal knowledge here that expresses stupidity.
As previously stated, class action lawsuits abound in the present day,
and 99.999% of class members never set foot inside a court room, so
your claim that you'd be spending time in court is ludicrous and is
itself a scam...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 18:29:56 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621014053.62865.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050621182956.47110.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:


> 
> Actually, private industry consumer protection would
> be better than the
> FDA. Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports,
> Insurance Institute,
> and Electrical Testing Laboratories all do their own
> testing of
> manufacturers products, to their own standards.

Actually you might be on to something here Mike. I was
worried that big pharma would have too much influence
on a private underwriting lab. But if it were actually
funded by insurance companies instead of big pharma,
there would be a strong finacial incetive to make sure
that drugs were safe before getting their stamp of
approval. Kind of like the way they do the Insurance
Institute for Highway Safety. Something like that I
would go for. 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 21 18:51:45 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621182956.47110.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050621185145.94094.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Actually, private industry consumer protection would
> > be better than the
> > FDA. Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports,
> > Insurance Institute,
> > and Electrical Testing Laboratories all do their own
> > testing of
> > manufacturers products, to their own standards.
> 
> Actually you might be on to something here Mike. I was
> worried that big pharma would have too much influence
> on a private underwriting lab. But if it were actually
> funded by insurance companies instead of big pharma,
> there would be a strong finacial incetive to make sure
> that drugs were safe before getting their stamp of
> approval. Kind of like the way they do the Insurance
> Institute for Highway Safety. Something like that I
> would go for. 

Thanks. It really doesn't matter who pays. UL and ETL both charge
manufacturers to have their products tested (I've been through the
process myself) and they really don't tolerate companies trying to
bully them, because they know that their brand is most valuable the
more stringent they are.

John Stossel has reported on this effect as well in his media
experience, where his employers find that advertising time during his
shows are worth more, so the network makes more money, the more Stossel
is critical of frauds, scams, and ineffective products.

The FDA, because it is the 'brand' people see, makes for a weak market
quality because the FDA isn't the one actually doing the testing. Labs
that the consumer is unaware of because of this fronting thus do not
have a market incentive to protect their brand against negative public
perception by producing shoddy science that cow tows to the drug makers
desired results.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jun 21 19:19:52 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621185145.94094.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050621191952.47772.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The FDA, because it is the 'brand' people see, makes for a weak
> market
> quality because the FDA isn't the one actually doing the testing.
> Labs
> that the consumer is unaware of because of this fronting thus do not
> have a market incentive to protect their brand against negative
> public
> perception by producing shoddy science that cow tows to the drug
> makers
> desired results.

I wonder if it would be feasable, to pass a law requiring the packaging
of any drug receiving the FDA's approval (possibly retroactive up to
how far accurate records are available, possibly only for future
approvals), to also carry the logo of the lab that the FDA contracted
safety testing out to.  That way, those members of the public who
investigate unsafe drugs that the FDA approved could warn people to
stay away from drugs approved by lab X; process of elimination would
hopefully eventually produce brands like UL.

It largely maintains the existing structure of how things are done.
All that it adds from a legal standpoint is a bit more labelling -
trivial.  And yet it could eventually reduce the FDA's role in this to
an official gatekeeper (for those who don't ever trust industry
anything, even an industry that has financial reason to play nice).


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Tue Jun 21 19:37:39 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:37:39 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
Message-ID: <42B86C83.6070107@humanenhancement.com>

I hope nobody we know is attending Bio 2005 
(http://www.bio.org/events/2005/)...

http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html

Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City 
Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has died 
after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.

The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack but 
homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.

Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and police 
that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. Some 
protesters were seen being taken away in handcuffs by police after the 
incident. The fallen officer was taken away in an ambulance.

Police department spokesman Jim Pauley said Williams was pronounced dead 
at Hahnemann University Hospital shortly after 1 p.m.

The street in front of the convention center is now closed to traffic. 
Earlier, protesters chanted and pounded on drums, and blocked the 
entrance to the convention center.

Several hundred protesters had started marching to the Convention Center 
from 16th and Arch Streets before 12 p.m.

Some groups associated with a wave of violent attacks on biotechnology 
companies said in advance they planned demonstrations outside the 
Biotech convention center Tuesday.


From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Jun 21 23:36:25 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:36:25 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050621172423.99515.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/21/05 10:24) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>It is only the lack of legal knowledge here that expresses stupidity.
>As previously stated, class action lawsuits abound in the present day,
>and 99.999% of class members never set foot inside a court room, so
>your claim that you'd be spending time in court is ludicrous and is
>itself a scam...


So now, instead of spending my time in a courtroom, I suffer for years waiting for the lawyers to work out their fees so I can get pennies on the dollar in recompensation.

That's SO much better. Gosh, I've seen the light now! </sarcasm>

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 21 23:45:28 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:45:28 +1000
Subject: Life in Biosphere 1 was Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over
	Anti-Aging Comments
References: <r02010500-1038-3552D182E27011D9B087000393A47D36@[68.243.9.110]>
Message-ID: <029e01c576bb$4e1443c0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Brent Neal wrote:

> (6/21/05 8:29) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you engage
>>in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
>>protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of fraudsters
>>if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
>>those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
>>scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty products.
>>Frauders abound in the email world.
>
>
> Of course, you discount the cost of all of this.  Not in terms of 
> 'chilling
> effect,' but in terms of precious, valuable time.  How on earth am I
> supposed to have time to contribute in a meaningful economic way
> when I'm in court battling everyone under the sun.
>
> This particular vision of "Libertarian Utopia" seems particularly stupid
> to me.

I see Brent's point, its hard for most individuals to have the sort of
generalist or multi-specialist knowledge required to be 'caveat emptoring'
every time they buy a product. And its also inefficient. And kids and
the vulnerable, (ie people who are largely harmless except perhaps in
that they vote) don't have the skills to be 'caveat emptoring' for
themselves especially when unscupulous sellers can specialise in
identifying classes of marks to exploit.

Yet ultimatey I think Mike is more correct on this point. Rights don't
arrive from need alone. There is no and cannot be a general right to
ignorance.

Earth is biosphere 1. Adults, voters anyway, are not equally equipped
to thrive in biosphere 1 and to make good personal use of the social
constructions and tools like governments, the legal system, the media,
but so long as we are all in biosphere 1, its just nuts to think that there
are ultimate rights to ignorance when the exercise of that ignorance
feeds back into the biosphere.

Every fool that buys a crap product empowers a pest. The number
of pests then increases to feast on that particular species of fool.

Hard as it is I also think that Mike is sort of correct about the
solution. Ultimately there is no real security in ignorance. To thrive
in biosphere 1 a person does have to be a geek of many trades.
One has to be lawyer enough to use the legal system, mathematician
enough to weight one's risks, politician enough to stay on side or
avoid getting offside with too many rougues and so on and on..

And then if you actually want to make anything happen to improve
the circumstances of your life in biosphere 1 just have to expect
that their will be a tax on your creativity and innovation.

Scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs are all accountable to
some degree to exogenous planning shocks every three of four
years when the voters vote in their wisdom or otherwise.

While we are in bioshphere 1 there is no escaping the need to
educate and enlighten the voters other than to stop them from
voting.

'Extropy' in biosphere 1 has to deal with the fact that we are
in biosphere 1 with a bunch of other people, all things being
equal the faster those people get enlightened the better it
will be.  Educating other people when those people are going
to vote, and buy products, isn't a side issues its a design
necessity.

Thoughts of getting rid of governments or imagining away
institutions will remain just thoughts, and probably should
remain just thoughts, until we realise that what exists in
biosphere 1, all the human constructions, exist as a result
of evolutionary pressures.

The above is not necessarily thoroughly thought through.

Brett Paatsch




From megao at sasktel.net  Tue Jun 21 23:02:53 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:02:53 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Life in Biosphere 1
In-Reply-To: <029e01c576bb$4e1443c0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <r02010500-1038-3552D182E27011D9B087000393A47D36@[68.243.9.110]>
	<029e01c576bb$4e1443c0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <42B89C9D.8040806@sasktel.net>

That probably sums up why many people ignore most everything except what 
their neighbours and friends and family
tell them by experience works.

They assume that 99% is bullshit and watch for others to sift through 
the shit to findthe shinola.
In the past when change came slowly this worked well.
Now as change accelerates the risk is that the shinola to shit ratio is 
increasing and the old patterns are
reducing the public acceptance and utilization of the benefits of change.

This especially applies to the rural communities as opposed to the urban 
ones disproportionately.

However if the benefit is extended lifespan the risk for time wasted 
must be rebalanced
against time gained.

MFJ

Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Brent Neal wrote:
>
>> (6/21/05 8:29) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you engage
>>> in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
>>> protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of fraudsters
>>> if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
>>> those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
>>> scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty products.
>>> Frauders abound in the email world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course, you discount the cost of all of this.  Not in terms of 
>> 'chilling
>> effect,' but in terms of precious, valuable time.  How on earth am I
>> supposed to have time to contribute in a meaningful economic way
>> when I'm in court battling everyone under the sun.
>>
>> This particular vision of "Libertarian Utopia" seems particularly stupid
>> to me.
>
>
> I see Brent's point, its hard for most individuals to have the sort of
> generalist or multi-specialist knowledge required to be 'caveat 
> emptoring'
> every time they buy a product. And its also inefficient. And kids and
> the vulnerable, (ie people who are largely harmless except perhaps in
> that they vote) don't have the skills to be 'caveat emptoring' for
> themselves especially when unscupulous sellers can specialise in
> identifying classes of marks to exploit.
>
> Yet ultimatey I think Mike is more correct on this point. Rights don't
> arrive from need alone. There is no and cannot be a general right to
> ignorance.
>
> Earth is biosphere 1. Adults, voters anyway, are not equally equipped
> to thrive in biosphere 1 and to make good personal use of the social
> constructions and tools like governments, the legal system, the media,
> but so long as we are all in biosphere 1, its just nuts to think that 
> there
> are ultimate rights to ignorance when the exercise of that ignorance
> feeds back into the biosphere.
>
> Every fool that buys a crap product empowers a pest. The number
> of pests then increases to feast on that particular species of fool.
>
> Hard as it is I also think that Mike is sort of correct about the
> solution. Ultimately there is no real security in ignorance. To thrive
> in biosphere 1 a person does have to be a geek of many trades.
> One has to be lawyer enough to use the legal system, mathematician
> enough to weight one's risks, politician enough to stay on side or
> avoid getting offside with too many rougues and so on and on..
>
> And then if you actually want to make anything happen to improve
> the circumstances of your life in biosphere 1 just have to expect
> that their will be a tax on your creativity and innovation.
>
> Scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs are all accountable to
> some degree to exogenous planning shocks every three of four
> years when the voters vote in their wisdom or otherwise.
>
> While we are in bioshphere 1 there is no escaping the need to
> educate and enlighten the voters other than to stop them from
> voting.
>
> 'Extropy' in biosphere 1 has to deal with the fact that we are
> in biosphere 1 with a bunch of other people, all things being
> equal the faster those people get enlightened the better it
> will be.  Educating other people when those people are going
> to vote, and buy products, isn't a side issues its a design
> necessity.
>
> Thoughts of getting rid of governments or imagining away
> institutions will remain just thoughts, and probably should
> remain just thoughts, until we realise that what exists in
> biosphere 1, all the human constructions, exist as a result
> of evolutionary pressures.
>
> The above is not necessarily thoroughly thought through.
>
> Brett Paatsch
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun 22 00:42:31 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:42:31 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Brent Neal writes:

> (6/21/05 10:24) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>It is only the lack of legal knowledge here that expresses stupidity.
>>As previously stated, class action lawsuits abound in the present day,
>>and 99.999% of class members never set foot inside a court room, so
>>your claim that you'd be spending time in court is ludicrous and is
>>itself a scam...
> 
> 
> So now, instead of spending my time in a courtroom, I suffer for years
> waiting for the lawyers to work out their fees so I can get pennies on
> the dollar in recompensation.
> 
> That's SO much better. Gosh, I've seen the light now! </sarcasm>
> 
> B
> -- 
> Brent Neal
> Geek of all Trades
> http://brentn.freeshell.org
> 
> "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein

Sorry to interject, well I mean rudeness isn't my object but I'm
willing to risk it, but I think the solution is a practical one. 

You personally don't have to extend you repertoire of generalist
skills to actually become a lawyer but its worth adding the knowledge
that class actions might be a means of getting things done to your 
personal empowerment kit.  If you know a lawyer that you can trust
to give you value then perhaps you can rely on them. But you'd have
to know one that you trust or else you haven't actually empowered
yourself at all and you either have to know the law for yourself or go
forth into life with a massive exposure in your armamentarium. 

Ultimately I think all intelligent people to be successful in a competitive
world do need to know the law reasonably well. Even scientists 
and technologists are well advised to go slum it in the humanities 
occassionally because the humanities or inhumanities will cause them
untold or told amounts of grief if they do not. 

When too many of us are too ignorant of the law there is not enough
substantial public opinion left to uphold it. And civilization regresses
or at best goes sideways perhaps without some of us with it. 

Case in point. The US invasion of Iraq. It was illegal. Public opinion
didn't know enough to care. They left the lawyering to the lawyers and
the politicing to the politicians and they went on about their business
perhaps barracking for whichever side appealed to them without 
checking out the underlying facts. The body count in Iraq of innocent
civilians is probably around 20,000 or so based on a UN estimate
I read about in the Australian. Thats about five times the amount
of 'innocent' bystanders that were killed on September 11. 

>From the standpoint of an observer that is neither Iraqi nor a US
citizen that is not a result that I can think is clear progress. 

But I've digressed way off.

Brett Paatsch


 









From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun 22 01:05:39 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:05:39 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Life in Biosphere 1
References: <r02010500-1038-3552D182E27011D9B087000393A47D36@[68.243.9.110]><029e01c576bb$4e1443c0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<42B89C9D.8040806@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <02ca01c576c6$81ad5630$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Lifespan Pharma Inc wrote:

> That [below] probably sums up why many people ignore most
> everything except what their neighbours and friends and family
> tell them by experience works.
>
> They assume that 99% is bullshit and watch for others to sift through the 
> shit to findthe shinola.
> In the past when change came slowly this worked well.
> Now as change accelerates the risk is that the shinola to shit ratio is 
> increasing and the old patterns are
> reducing the public acceptance and utilization of the benefits of change.

I'm not sure that the ratio is changing. I'm not confident that its 99 : 1
but I don't think its substantially changing.  I think technology has made
it easier to educate the average person to a level where the average
person today is genuinely more knowledgeable about science and
about other people than the average person of previous generations.

The base is going up I think, but the median is holding the lead back
through the social constructions that are democratic government, and
that may not be a bad thing, for the mean. And it is a problem for
the lead that can be addressed in different ways.

> This especially applies to the rural communities as opposed to the
> urban ones disproportionately.

You might be right here. Rural communities in Australia and the US
are likely to be somewhat less hooked in to the sort of technology
that helps speed the process of education - such as broadband
internet connections etc.

And if you look to the developing world that would certainly be
the case.

> However if the benefit is extended lifespan the risk for time wasted must 
> be rebalanced  against time gained.

Not sure what you mean there, can you elaborate?

Brett Paatsch

Ps: It would be less cumbersome if we ditched the top posting.


> Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>> Brent Neal wrote:
>>
>>> (6/21/05 8:29) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, Bill, they don't. You don't have a right to safety when you engage
>>>> in commerce ignorantly, just as you don't have a right to police
>>>> protection. Who says you shouldn't live in a world full of fraudsters
>>>> if you don't take your personal responsibility to litigate against
>>>> those who defraud you? Most infomercials on tv today are frauds or
>>>> scams: weight loss products, cheap exercise machines, beauty products.
>>>> Frauders abound in the email world.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course, you discount the cost of all of this.  Not in terms of 
>>> 'chilling
>>> effect,' but in terms of precious, valuable time.  How on earth am I
>>> supposed to have time to contribute in a meaningful economic way
>>> when I'm in court battling everyone under the sun.
>>>
>>> This particular vision of "Libertarian Utopia" seems particularly stupid
>>> to me.
>>
>>
>> I see Brent's point, its hard for most individuals to have the sort of
>> generalist or multi-specialist knowledge required to be 'caveat 
>> emptoring'
>> every time they buy a product. And its also inefficient. And kids and
>> the vulnerable, (ie people who are largely harmless except perhaps in
>> that they vote) don't have the skills to be 'caveat emptoring' for
>> themselves especially when unscupulous sellers can specialise in
>> identifying classes of marks to exploit.
>>
>> Yet ultimatey I think Mike is more correct on this point. Rights don't
>> arrive from need alone. There is no and cannot be a general right to
>> ignorance.
>>
>> Earth is biosphere 1. Adults, voters anyway, are not equally equipped
>> to thrive in biosphere 1 and to make good personal use of the social
>> constructions and tools like governments, the legal system, the media,
>> but so long as we are all in biosphere 1, its just nuts to think that 
>> there
>> are ultimate rights to ignorance when the exercise of that ignorance
>> feeds back into the biosphere.
>>
>> Every fool that buys a crap product empowers a pest. The number
>> of pests then increases to feast on that particular species of fool.
>>
>> Hard as it is I also think that Mike is sort of correct about the
>> solution. Ultimately there is no real security in ignorance. To thrive
>> in biosphere 1 a person does have to be a geek of many trades.
>> One has to be lawyer enough to use the legal system, mathematician
>> enough to weight one's risks, politician enough to stay on side or
>> avoid getting offside with too many rougues and so on and on..
>>
>> And then if you actually want to make anything happen to improve
>> the circumstances of your life in biosphere 1 just have to expect
>> that their will be a tax on your creativity and innovation.
>>
>> Scientists, technologists, entrepreneurs are all accountable to
>> some degree to exogenous planning shocks every three of four
>> years when the voters vote in their wisdom or otherwise.
>>
>> While we are in bioshphere 1 there is no escaping the need to
>> educate and enlighten the voters other than to stop them from
>> voting.
>>
>> 'Extropy' in biosphere 1 has to deal with the fact that we are
>> in biosphere 1 with a bunch of other people, all things being
>> equal the faster those people get enlightened the better it
>> will be.  Educating other people when those people are going
>> to vote, and buy products, isn't a side issues its a design
>> necessity.
>>
>> Thoughts of getting rid of governments or imagining away
>> institutions will remain just thoughts, and probably should
>> remain just thoughts, until we realise that what exists in
>> biosphere 1, all the human constructions, exist as a result
>> of evolutionary pressures.
>>
>> The above is not necessarily thoroughly thought through.
>>
>> Brett Paatsch
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 




From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 22 01:43:56 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:43:56 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
	<02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>

*sigh*

Brett Paatsch wrote:

> The body count in Iraq of innocent
> civilians is probably around 20,000 or so based on a UN estimate
> I read about in the Australian. Thats about five times the amount
> of 'innocent' bystanders that were killed on September 11.


That number includes (indeed, by a vast majority) those innocent 
civilians killed by the Islamist and Baathist insurgents. 
(http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)

Your statement makes it appear as if the 20,000 Iraqi civilians were all 
killed by coalition forces, when in fact the truth is that the vast 
majority were killed by the very terrorists who we are fighting against. 
BUT EVEN SO...

During Saddam's 20-year reign, around 750,000 Iraqi civilians were 
killed. That's an average of 3,125 per month. Even if you lay all of the 
deaths of civilians (mostly caused by suicide bombers, insurgent mortar 
attacks, and drive-by-shootings by terrorists), at the coalition's 
doorstep since the end of major combat operations (May, 2003 - June 
2005), you get 769 per month.

Hmmm.

During Saddam's regime, 3,125 a month killed.

After his ouster, 769 a month killed (mostly by Islamic and Baathist 
terrorists).

Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic 
terrorists. But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce make 
incremental progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving 2,356 lives 
a month on average?

Pardon my bluntness, but Sweet Reason, man! We're SAVING lives every day 
that we're there! If Saddam had been left in power, some 61,000 people 
would be dead right now that are alive.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)




From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 01:52:32 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:52:32 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmic dust or cosmic bulldust?
In-Reply-To: <20050617170203.32931.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050617170203.32931.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B8C460.70800@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Sounds three degrees of separation from Velikovsky to me, but hey, it
>>came 
>>to my notice in a supportive comment from a Nobel physicist:
>>
>>http://www.etheric.com/Sphinx_Stargate/Scorpius.html
>>
>>The author, Dr Paul LaViolette, claims censorship from arXiv,
>>
>>http://www.etheric.com/physarchive/history2.html
>>
>>although this did finally appear there:
>>
>>http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0502019
>>    
>>
>
>It appeared in the general physics section, not astrophysics, not
>astronomy, etc. i.e. by banishing a topic-specific paper to the general
>physics area that it has nothing to do with, Cornell ensures that
>LaViolette's work does not get read as much as it should or could. The
>pattern of behavior by arxiv seems clear. Cornell has gone far downhill
>since Feynman's day. Perhaps that is why he went to California in the
>first place.
>
>  
>
I hear that Brian Josephson has complained of being effectively banned 
from posting to it because the mods don't like what he's saying.
Only the opinions of approved Nobel Prize winners are deemed worthy...

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/24 - Release Date: 21/06/2005



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 02:07:17 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:07:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Damn it!
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621210648.01d02ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

04:44 2005-06-22
A Russian attempt to launch a solar sail vehicle designed to be propelled 
by pressure from sunlight failed yet again because the booster rocket 
suffered engine failure soon after it blasted into space, the state news 
agency RIA-Novosti reported.

http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2005/06/22/60422.html 



From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 02:10:14 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:10:14 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615230232.037db210@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>	<20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20050615230232.037db210@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <42B8C886.4040308@neopax.com>

Keith Henson wrote:

> At 11:47 PM 14/06/05 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> The Avantguardian wrote:
>>
>>> --- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became
>>>> aware of a young man with a larger than normal head.  He was 
>>>> referred to
>>>> Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty.  Although the
>>>> boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in 
>>>> mathematics,
>>>> he had "virtually no brain".  A noninvasive measurement of radio
>>>> density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a 
>>>> thin layer
>>>> of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness.  The rest of his skull 
>>>> was
>>>> filled with cerebrospinal fluid.  The young man continues a
>>>> normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
>>>>
>>> I stand corrected. Obviously there is more to the
>>> brain percentage debate than meets the eye. Thanks for
>>> this new tidbit of info. I am not sure exactly what to
>>> make of it. The MD at the desk next to me is somewhat
>>> amazed as well. This is definately NOT what they teach
>>> in medical school and neuroscience class.
>>>
>> Well, if you're going to take it seriously I suggest you dig for real 
>> references.
>> If it's true it implies that AI might be simpler than we expect, at 
>> least in terms of computational requirements.
>
>
> I remember looking into this when it was reported.  At the time I 
> remarked how the surface area of his brain seems to be the important 
> parameter.
>
> This is consistent with William Calvin's analysis that the hexagonal 
> spaced cortical column is the "element of computation" in brains.  I 
> ran a computation--which is probably can be found if someone 
> looks--assuming that each of these columns could be modeled and 
> connected to its neighbors by a 1 cm square silicon processor.  I seem 
> to remember it was something like 150 meters on a side square of 
> processors to simulate a human brain this way.
>
ie 22500 sq metres.
Given Moore's Law and 25yrs that reduces to about 0.3 sq metres, or a 
chip approx 60cm on edge.
Or something rather more compact if we use wafer scale integration and 
stacking.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 02:11:46 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:11:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615231244.037c38c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615231244.037c38c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <42B8C8E2.7060901@neopax.com>

Keith Henson wrote:

> At 12:50 PM 14/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
>> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.
>
>
> snip
>
>>  It was  like a switch simply turned off.
>
>
> In my view humans have spirits, that's what we interact with.  So do 
> dogs and cats.  So do computers running an OS on them.  Where does the 
> spirit of the OS go when you turn off the power?  It is just *gone.*
>
A spirit, or soul, is an information construct.
As for where it goes, it need not go anywhere since it has at least a 4D 
worldline (or tree if you're into MWI of QM).

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/24 - Release Date: 21/06/2005



From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 02:12:36 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:12:36 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British Producer/Director
	Interviewing Teenagers on Future
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42B8C914.3060703@neopax.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Friends,
>
> I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to 
> interview teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive 
> effects of change on culture and, especially, the fact that they may 
> live beyond 100 years old and what this means to their generation.

Probably good for propaganda, but teenagers are the people least likely 
to have anything worth saying about the topic.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 22 02:26:33 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:26:33 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Damn it!
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621210648.01d02ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621210648.01d02ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42B8CC59.6060901@humanenhancement.com>

Crap.

Damien Broderick wrote:

> 04:44 2005-06-22
> A Russian attempt to launch a solar sail vehicle designed to be 
> propelled by pressure from sunlight failed yet again because the 
> booster rocket suffered engine failure soon after it blasted into 
> space, the state news agency RIA-Novosti reported.
>
> http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2005/06/22/60422.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From gingell at gnat.com  Wed Jun 22 04:02:29 2005
From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:02:29 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
	<02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <B9E77452-38A1-413B-9AB5-FC50073BD14E@gnat.com>

On Jun 21, 2005, at 9:43 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic  
> terrorists. But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce  
> make incremental progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving  
> 2,356 lives a month on average?

May 1, 2003 to June 1, 2005 is 25 months, so accepting your numbers  
for the sake of argument that's a total of 2,356 * 25 = 58,900 lives  
saved. I haven't kept up with every single supplemental  
appropriation, but we're only really talking rough order of magnitude  
here so lets call the cost about $200 billion spent. That comes out  
to $3.4 million per life. If we think about the opportunity cost,  
that is if we consider what we gave up when we spent this money on  
Iraq rather than on something else, it's incredibly easy to think  
that's a bad thing.

Imagine for an instant that we actually were interested in  
accomplishing a humanitarian end measured in human lives. How many  
mosquitos in malaria infested regions of Africa did we not kill?  
Cholera kills far more people than crazy dictators: How many deep,  
clean wells did we not dig? If in May 2003 I gave you $200 billion  
and the entire U.S. military, and I told you your mission was to make  
the world a better place, would invading Iraq really be the best you  
could do?

What is the net outcome measured in human lives of the decision to  
dump all this money in Iraq, relative to the other things we decided  
not to do instead? How does the outcome we're looking at now stack up  
relative to picking up the smartest million third world subsistence  
farmers we could find and handing them a U.S. passport and a $200  
thousand dollar education?

> Pardon my bluntness, but Sweet Reason, man! We're SAVING lives  
> every day that we're there! If Saddam had been left in power, some  
> 61,000 people would be dead right now that are alive.

Saving 58,900 lives was a good thing. If it cost a trillion dollars  
it would have been a good thing. If it killed a billion people, the  
fact those 58,900 were saved would *still* be a good thing. If you  
want to invoke "Reason" though, you really have to admit there's more  
to the analysis than that.

I don't mean to jump on you, but some of us who opposed the war from  
the beginning are fed up with the contention that we thought Saddam  
was just great and we wouldn't, all else being equal, love to see him  
flogged through the streets then locked up in a dark hole forever.  
That simply isn't and never has been the anti-war argument. The  
argument is that the benefits don't justify the costs.

Matt





From fauxever at sprynet.com  Wed Jun 22 04:28:25 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:28:25 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Inventor of Microchip is Dead
Message-ID: <001601c576e2$d539d230$6600a8c0@brainiac>

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/22/business/22kilby.html

June 22, 2005
Jack S. Kilby, an Inventor of the Microchip, Is Dead at 81
By JOHN MARKOFF
Jack S. Kilby, an electrical engineer whose invention of the integrated 
circuit gave rise to the information age and heralded an explosion of 
consumer electronics products in the last 50 years, from personal computers 
to cellphones, died Monday in Dallas. He was 81.

His death, after a brief battle with cancer, was announced yesterday by 
Texas Instruments, the Dallas-based electronics company where he worked for 
a quarter-century.

The integrated circuit that Mr. Kilby designed shortly after arriving at 
Texas Instruments in 1958 served as the basis for modern microelectronics, 
transforming a technology that permitted the simultaneous manufacturing of a 
mere handful of transistors into a chip industry that routinely places 
billions of Lilliputian switches in the area of a fingernail.

His achievement - the integration - yielded a thin chip of crystal 
connecting previously separate components like transistors, resistors and 
capacitors within a single device. For that creation, commonly called the 
microchip, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2000.

During his career at Texas Instruments he claimed more than 60 patents and 
was also one of the inventors of the hand-held calculator and the thermal 
printer. But it was Mr. Kilby's invention of the integrated circuit that 
most broadly shaped the electronic era.

"It's hard to find a place where the integrated circuit doesn't affect your 
life today," Richard K. Templeton, Texas Instruments' president and chief 
executive officer, said in an interview yesterday. "That's how broad its 
impact is."

It is an impact, Mr. Kilby said, that was largely unexpected. "We expected 
to reduce the cost of electronics, but I don't think anybody was thinking in 
terms of factors of a million," he said in an undated interview cited by 
Texas Instruments.

The remarkable acceleration of the manufacturing process based on the 
integrated circuit was later described by Gordon E. Moore, co-founder of the 
Intel Corporation, whose partner, Robert N. Noyce, invented another version 
of the integrated circuit just months after Mr. Kilby.

In 1965, three years after the first commercial integrated circuits came to 
market, Dr. Moore observed that the number of transistors on a circuit was 
doubling at regular intervals and would do so far into the future. The 
observation, which came to be known as Moore's law, became the defining 
attribute of the chip-making industry, centered in what is now known as 
Silicon Valley, where Intel was based, rather than in Dallas.

That was partly because Dr. Noyce's version of the integrated circuit, using 
silicon and based on a photolithographic printing technology known as the 
planar process, was easier to manufacture than Mr. Kilby's original 
invention, which employed germanium and used individual wires.

In 1959 Mr. Kilby and Dr. Noyce, then with Fairchild Semiconductor, were 
named as inventors in their companies' applications for patents for the 
integrated circuit. After years of legal battles, Fairchild and Texas 
Instruments decided to cross-license their technologies, ultimately creating 
a world information industries market now worth more than $1 trillion 
annually. Dr. Noyce died in 1990.

Dr. Moore remembered Mr. Kilby as a tall - he was 6-foot-6 - and gentle man 
with whom he would occasionally socialize while attending technical 
meetings.

"He was mild mannered," Dr. Moore recalled in a telephone interview 
yesterday, "but I would never worry when I was walking down the street with 
him in New York City."

Mr. Kilby's contribution came in an era when manufacturing industries were 
hunting for new approaches to miniaturization for reasons of both cost and 
performance. It was a drive that began during World War II and pushed beyond 
military uses into consumer products in the postwar era.

He began his career in 1947 with the Centralab division of Globe Union Inc. 
in Milwaukee, developing ceramic-based silk-screen circuits for consumer 
electronic products.

Michael Riordan, co-author of "Crystal Fire: The Invention of the Transistor 
and the Birth of the Information Age" (W. W. Norton & Company, 1998), noted 
that Globe Union and Texas Instruments were both pioneers in 
miniaturization, and that Mr. Kilby "came to T.I. with a drive to make 
things small."

Mr. Kilby had also been sent by Globe Union to attend an early workshop held 
by the Bell Laboratories of A.T.& T. to familiarize the technical world with 
the transistor in the early 1950's. It was Mr. Kilby who first pulled the 
idea of miniaturization together with the transistor.

A lifelong optimist who rarely showed signs of anger, according to his 
daughter, Janet Kilby Cameron, Mr. Kilby took his Nobel Prize in stride. 
When asked what he did after learning of the award, he said simply, "I made 
coffee."

Jack St. Clair Kilby was born in Jefferson City, Mo., on Nov. 8, 1923, to 
Hubert and Vina Kilby. He grew up in Great Bend, Kan., and was exposed early 
on to the world of engineers: his father ran the local electric utility.

He decided in high school that he would become an electrical engineer and 
applied to M.I.T., even then the mecca for aspiring engineers. He took a 
train to Cambridge, Mass., but fell slightly short in his score on the 
entrance exam in June 1941 and was unable to enroll. A few months later he 
joined the Army and was assigned to a radio repair shop at an outpost on a 
tea plantation in northeast India.

After the war he attended college on the G.I. Bill of Rights. After 
receiving a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from the University 
of Illinois and a master's from the University of Wisconsin, he went to work 
for Globe Union.

He arrived at Texas Instruments in 1958 and during his first summer, working 
with borrowed equipment, improvised a working integrated circuit. A 
successful laboratory demonstration of the first simple microchip took place 
on Sept. 12, 1958. He formally retired from the company in 1983 but 
continued his association as a consultant.

His other awards included both the National Medal of Science and the 
National Medal of Technology, the highest technical awards given by the 
United States government.

His wife, Barbara Annegers Kilby, died in 1982. In addition to Ms. Cameron, 
of Palisade, Colo., Mr. Kilby is survived by another daughter, Ann Kilby, of 
Austin, Tex., and five granddaughters.





From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun 22 05:09:44 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:44 +1000
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over
	Anti-Aging Comments
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]><02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Joseph Bloch wrote:

> *sigh*
>
> Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>> The body count in Iraq of innocent
>> civilians is probably around 20,000 or so based on a UN estimate
>> I read about in the Australian. Thats about five times the amount
>> of 'innocent' bystanders that were killed on September 11.
>
>
> That number includes (indeed, by a vast majority) those innocent civilians 
> killed by the Islamist and Baathist insurgents. 
> (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)
>
> Your statement makes it appear as if the 20,000 Iraqi civilians were all 
> killed by coalition forces, when in fact the truth is that the vast 
> majority were killed by the very terrorists who we are fighting against. 
> BUT EVEN SO...

I didn't mean to imply that 20,000 were killed by coalition forces.

Whether the Iraq war was legal or not IS something determineable by
investigation between fair minded reasonable people with some
understanding of law.  I am not sure how many people could pass
through the caveats in that sentence however. Those that think they
can may be right in thinking so.

I would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument from
the American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was legal
(not amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally savvy
person who knows the case) because I have seen the arguments from
the Australians and during the recent election in the UK more came out
about the basis of the British decision under Goldsmith. The Brits and
Blair allowed themselves to be persuaded but not by any legal argument
I have seen nor that I am aware of that any US citizen has seen or has
inquired into.

I am 100% genuine on this. If there is any US citizen reading this list
that honestly feels qualified and can place their hand on or refer me
to a link that they personally find legally persuasive that shows that the
Iraq invasion was not illegal then I would really like to hear from them.
(Mike, with respect, I don't regard you as qualified so you would need
to have excellent sources or I'd think I'd be wasting my time).

I know Greg Burch is a lawyer and I understand that he disagrees
with me but I don't know if he took a good look at the legality of
the Iraq war and concluded that it was legal or not. If he did I'd
respect him enough to take a look at his case and to be pursuaded
on the evidence. I can change my mind.

But I suspect what happened is that Greg didn't look. Perhaps
I am being unfair to Greg and if I am I will owe him an apology
but I think the US legal savvy extropes were asleep or focussed
elsewhere when the legalities of the Iraq invasion was being
worked through. That did disappoint me a bit. On this list way before
the invasion took place I posted about the possibility of two hoaxes,
one being that clonaid had a clone, the other being that Iraq had
weapons of mass destruction - a check of the archives will bear me
out on this. We on this list were in a position to discuss the game
theoretic implications and we did not do it. I tried but there were
not enough takers.

If it was an illegal invasion and the sovereignty of a UN country was
violated against a US oath, (and an Australian and a United Kingdom
one) then to my mind a fairly large part of the consequences of
resistance to illegal force sheets back to the US regardless and the
Bush administration regardless (and the Howard government regardless)
of whether those resisting are bathists or people otherwise objectionable
to the current power in fashion that labels their opponents terrorists.


> During Saddam's 20-year reign, around 750,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. 
> That's an average of 3,125 per month. Even if you lay all of the deaths of 
> civilians (mostly caused by suicide bombers, insurgent mortar attacks, and 
> drive-by-shootings by terrorists), at the coalition's doorstep since the 
> end of major combat operations (May, 2003 - June 2005), you get 769 per 
> month.

I am not even slightly defending anything that Saddam Hussein did. What
he did is beside the legal point. And the law is what must matter to us if
we are going to have a rule that is not a rule of faith or a rule of power.


> Hmmm.
>
> During Saddam's regime, 3,125 a month killed.
>
> After his ouster, 769 a month killed (mostly by Islamic and Baathist 
> terrorists).
>
> Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic terrorists. 
> But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce make incremental 
> progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving 2,356 lives a month on 
> average?
>
> Pardon my bluntness, but Sweet Reason, man! We're SAVING lives every day 
> that we're there! If Saddam had been left in power, some 61,000 people 
> would be dead right now that are alive.

Your missing my point Joseph. And I am not missing yours. I did take a quick
look at the site reference you provided and it looks like a fairly 
reasonably
source so far I could tell quickly. I can freely see that some good can come
of actions even illegal actions.

I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve of
construction?" with respect to Iraq.

Please don't make the mistake of miss characterising me as anti-American
(if anything I'm pro - although I'm Australian), or anti-Repulican, (I'm 
neither
Republican nor Democrat by sympathy), nor am I a passivist. (I thought
the invasion of Afganistan *was* legal, and I thought George H W Bush's
conduct in the first Gulf War was very creditable and moral and legal and
upright. I say these things only to try and get you to see that I am not
someone that is going to be easily classified into the nut job, disaffected
or disillusioned opponent category.

I was and am a largely disinterested observer with the exception that I
want progress to be real and I recognize that we need to uphold some
rule of law, some decency for that to happen, otherwise all that changes
is which particular group dies.

The dying can slow down, all the way across the board, when the critical
thinking picks up. The tragedy of Iraq was that it shows the level of 
thinking
that we (humans) were capable of through our institutions.

We (humans) need to do a lot better. Or the whole transhumanist thing
is going to continue to look like pie in the sky.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant at you ;-)

And the transhumanist thing *may* be pie in the sky anyway.

Regards,
Brett Paatsch 




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Wed Jun 22 05:10:17 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:10:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Why bagels could hold the key to
	human behaviour
Message-ID: <42B8F2B9.7030905@mindspring.com>

<http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,1510857,00.html>

Why bagels could hold the key to human behaviour

Sumo wrestlers, Chicago school teachers, drug dealers who live with
their mothers and even the humble bagel - rogue economist Steven Levitt
says it's the little things in life that help explain the way the world
works. The author of Freakonomics, the book that has taken the US by
storm, talks exclusively to Gary Younge

Tuesday June 21, 2005

Steven Levitt's three-year-old daughter, Amanda, had not long finished
potty training when she decided she actually preferred nappies. Levitt's
wife, Jeannette, used all the methods she knew to convince the toddler
otherwise but to no avail. Levitt, the author of hit book Freakonomics,
intervened. He promised Amanda some M&M's whenever she used the potty.

For the first few days it worked well with sweets changing hands in
return for timely toilet visits. On the third or fourth day Levitt, 38,
took Amanda to the toilet. She passed just a dribble and took the
sweets. A few minutes later she was back on the toilet, passing yet
another dribble and putting her hand out for yet more sweets. She'd
rumbled the system. Levitt smiles.

"I never thought my three-year-old daughter could outwit my incentives
in just three or four days," he says. "But it's a great example of how
incentives can have unpredictable effects."

Welcome to Levitt's world - the unintended and unexpected outcomes
arising from various initiatives and incentives; the peculiar
relationships between things one would generally not relate. His methods
are intriguing - comparing the behaviour of some Chicago school teachers
to sumo wrestlers (both have incentives to cheat) and the Ku Klux Klan
to estate agents (they both derive their power from secret information).
His subjects are original - examining a study of a crack-running gang on
Chicago's South Side to see why drug dealers live with their mothers.

His conclusions are, to some, offensive. In one chapter in Freakonomics
he argues that the crime rate in the United States plummeted in the 90s
because more liberal abortion laws in the 70s meant fewer potential
criminals were being born. In another, he claims that children born to
uneducated poor parents are more likely to be unsuccessful, regardless
of how they are brought up. "It isn't so much a matter of what you do as
a parent; it's who you are." Both are arguments that could be used to
justify eugenics.

[rest at site]
-- 



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Jun 22 05:16:11 2005
From: marc_geddes at yahoo.co.nz (Marc Geddes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:16:11 +1200 (NZST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The athymhormic AI
Message-ID: <20050622051611.74483.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>90% of the problems in Friendly AI are problems you
need to solve whether the 
programmer's goal is friendliness or knowably
converting the solar system into 
paperclips, such as "preserve a goal system through
recursive 
self-improvement", "bind the cognitive utility
function describing paperclips 
to physical paperclips as its referent", and "make
AI".  Might as well spend 
that extra 10% of effort to make the AI friendly for
some reasonable 
conception of friendliness.

Correction to Eli's comment.  The problem of Friendly
AI is 100% equivalent to the problem of a recursively
self-improving general intelligence.

Eli's Singularitarian Jedi powers have grown weak ;)
When I first came to SL4 I was the clueless learner. 
Should I return there again I *will* be the master.


---

THE BRAIN is wider than the sky,  
  For, put them side by side,  
The one the other will include  
  With ease, and you beside. 

-Emily Dickinson

'The brain is wider than the sky'
http://www.bartleby.com/113/1126.html

---

Please visit my web-site:

Mathematics, Mind and Matter
http://www.riemannai.org/

---

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 


From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 22 06:07:40 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:07:40 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again 
In-Reply-To: <02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <200506220607.j5M67gR19268@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brett Paatsch
... 
> I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve of
> construction?" with respect to Iraq.
...
> Regards, Brett Paatsch


Thanks Brett, ja I am a super-optimist on the Arab world.  
That whole blue finger thing wasn't just Hollywood, those 
people risked their asses to vote.  I am proud of them, I 
really am.  They showed the spirit of courage and 
determination, to go out in the face of death threats by the 
islamofacists.  The genie of democracy will not be stuffed 
back into the bottle.  Rather it will spread across the
land like a giant wave.

My vision of the next couple decades in Iraq and the Arab
world sees an ever growing percentage of the population
deciding, as did Europe, that they really do not need
religion in their lives.  As in Europe and to some degree
the U.S. we will see mosques more and more empty, and
the people there wanting more and more to be part of
the larger secular world.  They will want to make money
and have a better life, not fighting a hopeless jihad
against the whole world.

For most of this we have to thank the internet.  Thru
better communications, the arab world gets a view of
how the rest of us are.  They want all that too!  Look to
China and India, how they are overcoming their problems,
much more quickly than I ever expected.  The Muslim
world will follow in their footsteps methinks.  

Note that I am not predicting a soon end to the suicide
bombings.  In fact it would not surprise me that much
of the Arab world will eventually suffer nasty civil
wars, in which skerjillions will perish.  But eventually 
the good guys will win, for they are those which have
a better grip on key technologies.

Truly we are on the eve of construction. 

spike






From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 22 06:11:40 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:11:40 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
Message-ID: <200506220611.j5M6BbR20386@tick.javien.com>

 

Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html
>
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html 

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From giogavir at yahoo.it  Wed Jun 22 07:16:07 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:16:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <200506220611.j5M6BbR20386@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050622071607.43343.qmail@web26204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

in our Global Village situation, possessing WMD, of
abc type, spreading or non preventing epidemics, non
respect or lack of civil rights, extreme forms of
dictatorship (Idi Amin, Bokassa and now Mugabe in
Africa just to name a few), Burma and Afganistan's
talibans in Asia, favoring or protecting international
terrorists, favoring criminal activities such as drug
production and dealing, altering the environment with
heavy pollution or poorly designed artificial
intereventions (dams, roads, tunnels, etc) and many
other activities eventhought performed in single
countries affect all of us.The global community should
make provisions for an agreement and an international
law for the right of intervention, by an international
force, to stop such abuses.
Some form of global Government or at least of global
laws is necessary to protect the community.
--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> ha scritto: 

>  
> 
> Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s
> 
>  
>
<http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html
> >
>
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
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From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Jun 22 10:27:33 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:27:33 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-3F5E27D0E30811D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/22/05 10:42) Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:


>
>Ultimately I think all intelligent people to be successful in a competitive
>world do need to know the law reasonably well. Even scientists 
>and technologists are well advised to go slum it in the humanities 
>occassionally because the humanities or inhumanities will cause them
>untold or told amounts of grief if they do not. 


This is absolutely true. But you assume that I'm completely ignorant of the law (i.e. you've taken Lorrey at his word).  I'm actually reasonably cognizant of the laws in this country covering tort.  I'm also reasonably cognizant of how they play out in "real life" as opposed to on paper, which I suspect Lorrey is a bit shaky on.  If he were better informed, he'd realize that class action, as it exists today, provides very little benefit to the plaintiffs. Some have argued that the plaintiffs in class action only serve to benefit the lawyers who are bringing the suits.  One of the key problems therein is that the lawyers have an incentive to settle, due to the burden on most civil court dockets, for substantial sums, but sums that are not sufficient to adequately recompense their clients.  The defendant company typically admits no wrongdoing in the settlement, the lawyers receive a sizable fee, and the plaintiffs receive pennies on the dollars of loss.  While certainly, -some- class action suits are prosecuted effectively, an overwhelming plurality of them end in a settlement that's worthless in the sense that we've been discussing.

Now, lets imagine a system where we've doubled or tripled the number of cases of product liability. The courts would struggle to handle that kind of workload, thus providing even more incentive to settle and quickly.  The stated goal of the suit - to punish the wrongdoer in order to provide a disincentive for further wrongdoing - is not met and further, the person who suffered the loss would not receive recompense. 

Sometimes, it pays to take a small dose of reality with your idealism. In a perfect world, I'd absolutely agree with the notion of axing the FDA. I'd certainly agree strongly that it needs systemic reforms right now.  But just blithely cutting out and hoping that the courts will solve the issues that arise is just a spank-fantasy. I think most of us recognize that reality is a bit more complicated than that.

Brent
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 12:54:22 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:54:22 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <200506220607.j5M67gR19268@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506220607.j5M67gR19268@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <42B95F7E.7020501@neopax.com>

spike wrote:

>>bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brett Paatsch
>>    
>>
>... 
>  
>
>>I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve of
>>construction?" with respect to Iraq.
>>    
>>
>...
>  
>
>>Regards, Brett Paatsch
>>    
>>
>
>
>Thanks Brett, ja I am a super-optimist on the Arab world.  
>That whole blue finger thing wasn't just Hollywood, those 
>people risked their asses to vote.  I am proud of them, I 
>really am.  They showed the spirit of courage and 
>determination, to go out in the face of death threats by the 
>islamofacists.  The genie of democracy will not be stuffed 
>back into the bottle.  Rather it will spread across the
>land like a giant wave.
>
>My vision of the next couple decades in Iraq and the Arab
>world sees an ever growing percentage of the population
>deciding, as did Europe, that they really do not need
>religion in their lives.  As in Europe and to some degree
>  
>
Doubtful, especially since the US had the secular Arab states as being 
top of its list for knocking over, starting with Iraq and then (if 
things had gone well) Syria.

The fact is that only Islam is standing against US neo-imperialism and 
this counts for a lot. The fact that the US acts like a client state for 
Israel just makes things worse. There will be no peace in the ME until 
the Palestinian problem is resolved.

As for Iraq, I see it breaking up into three states.
In the North a defacto Kurdish democratic republic, assuming Turkey does 
not invade.
In the centre a Sunni Islamic state.
In the South a very pro-Iranian Shiite state which may or may not be 
Islamic.
Only the Kurds will express any gratitude to the West.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 12:56:57 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:56:57 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <200506220611.j5M6BbR20386@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506220611.j5M6BbR20386@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <42B96019.10705@neopax.com>

spike wrote:

>  
>
> Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html 
>
>
Mugabe is doing a Pol Pot and Zimbabwe is going the same way as most of 
Black Afica - tyranny, corruption, incompetence, famine and civil war.
The people get the govt they deserve.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 12:58:54 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:58:54 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <20050622071607.43343.qmail@web26204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622071607.43343.qmail@web26204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B9608E.3080801@neopax.com>

giorgio gaviraghi wrote:

>in our Global Village situation, possessing WMD, of
>abc type, spreading or non preventing epidemics, non
>respect or lack of civil rights, extreme forms of
>dictatorship (Idi Amin, Bokassa and now Mugabe in
>Africa just to name a few), Burma and Afganistan's
>talibans in Asia, favoring or protecting international
>terrorists, favoring criminal activities such as drug
>production and dealing, altering the environment with
>heavy pollution or poorly designed artificial
>intereventions (dams, roads, tunnels, etc) and many
>other activities eventhought performed in single
>countries affect all of us.The global community should
>make provisions for an agreement and an international
>law for the right of intervention, by an international
>force, to stop such abuses.
>Some form of global Government or at least of global
>laws is necessary to protect the community.
>--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> ha scritto: 
>  
>
>  
>
You forgot copyright infringement, theft of intellectual property rights 
and 'unfair' trade (ie hurting the US economy).
Not to mention illegal (as defined by the US) infringement of the rights 
of its multinationals to do whatever they want.
In a word - bollocks.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From giogavir at yahoo.it  Wed Jun 22 13:23:00 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:23:00 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <42B9608E.3080801@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050622132300.62401.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

copyright infringement, while despicable, don't kill
people but may hurt the wallet of overpayed performers
in the show business.
They may hurt jobs in the west when it refers to
manufacturing goods as well and that's more serious.
In reality this reinforce my opinion that we need
global laws in a global society and the right of
global intervention to enforce them when they are not
respected.
--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> ha scritto: 

> giorgio gaviraghi wrote:
> 
> >in our Global Village situation, possessing WMD, of
> >abc type, spreading or non preventing epidemics,
> non
> >respect or lack of civil rights, extreme forms of
> >dictatorship (Idi Amin, Bokassa and now Mugabe in
> >Africa just to name a few), Burma and Afganistan's
> >talibans in Asia, favoring or protecting
> international
> >terrorists, favoring criminal activities such as
> drug
> >production and dealing, altering the environment
> with
> >heavy pollution or poorly designed artificial
> >intereventions (dams, roads, tunnels, etc) and many
> >other activities eventhought performed in single
> >countries affect all of us.The global community
> should
> >make provisions for an agreement and an
> international
> >law for the right of intervention, by an
> international
> >force, to stop such abuses.
> >Some form of global Government or at least of
> global
> >laws is necessary to protect the community.
> >--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> ha scritto: 
> >  
> >
> >  
> >
> You forgot copyright infringement, theft of
> intellectual property rights 
> and 'unfair' trade (ie hurting the US economy).
> Not to mention illegal (as defined by the US)
> infringement of the rights 
> of its multinationals to do whatever they want.
> In a word - bollocks.
> 
> -- 
> Dirk
> 
> The Consensus:-
> The political party for the new millenium
> http://www.theconsensus.org
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 -
> Release Date: 21/06/2005
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 13:37:55 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:37:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <20050622132300.62401.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622132300.62401.qmail@web26208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B969B3.1070605@neopax.com>

giorgio gaviraghi wrote:

>copyright infringement, while despicable, don't kill
>people but may hurt the wallet of overpayed performers
>in the show business.
>They may hurt jobs in the west when it refers to
>manufacturing goods as well and that's more serious.
>In reality this reinforce my opinion that we need
>global laws in a global society and the right of
>global intervention to enforce them when they are not
>respected.
>  
>
Which is a recipe for more Iraq wars ie wars fought on charges  trumped 
up by the latest empire.
Hey - I bet all those missing WMDs have gone to Iran! Better invade just 
in case.
And if they're not found it must be because they are in Syria!

Anyone else got any oil who might plausibly be accused of WMD 
possession? [Ain't is fun watch those suckers trying to prove a 
negative? - the more the say they don't have them the more they can be 
accused of being liars...]

And yes, copyright infringement would certainly end up a cause for war 
now that the West is divesting itself of manufacturing capacity. It's 
all we have left (apart from a powerful military establishment].

And while we're at it, we may as well invade Holland for openly 
permitting the sale of cannabis (a DRUG!) .

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From alex at ramonsky.com  Wed Jun 22 13:48:58 2005
From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:48:58 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Film Documentary: British
	Producer/Director	Interviewing Teenagers on Future
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050615204522.02f5af68@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
	<42B8C914.3060703@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <42B96C4A.8060605@ramonsky.com>

Well, my two have verbal diarrhea on the subject ...do you think I could 
persuade this guy to talk (or rather, listen) to them for a long, long 
time?  :  )
Best,
AR
***********

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>
>> Friends,
>>
>> I am working with a British Producer/Director who would like to 
>> interview teenagers who are interested in a discussing the positive 
>> effects of change on culture and, especially, the fact that they may 
>> live beyond 100 years old and what this means to their generation.
>
>
> Probably good for propaganda, but teenagers are the people least 
> likely to have anything worth saying about the topic.
>





From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun 22 14:00:28 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:00:28 +1000
Subject: substituting the FDA was (Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued etc)
References: <r02010500-1038-3F5E27D0E30811D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <038c01c57732$bf5f9670$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Brent Neal wrote:

> (6/22/05 10:42) Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>Ultimately I think all intelligent people to be successful in a 
>>competitive
>>world do need to know the law reasonably well. Even scientists
>>and technologists are well advised to go slum it in the humanities
>>occassionally because the humanities or inhumanities will cause them
>>untold or told amounts of grief if they do not.
>
>
> This is absolutely true. But you assume that I'm completely ignorant
>of the law (i.e. you've taken Lorrey at his word).

I don't assume that. I don't know what you know about the law.

With respect to Mike, I know that his *interest* in the law is genuine,
Mike's not the type to sit by and let lawyers carve out a new
priesthood for themselves, and I like that. I think that's healthy.

If Mike can forge himself a competitive edge by knowing more about
law than the average non lawyer then I say good luck to him. But the
IF in that sentence IS important. I don't assume that Mike, or you, or
anyone with an interest is right when they express an opinion on the
law just because they have an interest.  I'm not completely crazy.

Personally I keep a sort of informal score on credibility against a
posters name. But not just against their net credibility also against
their credibility in certain areas. When they talk sense I remember.
When they talk rot I remember.  I presume others might do the
same with respect to me. I hope they do.

>  I'm actually reasonably cognizant of the laws in this country covering
> tort.  I'm also reasonably cognizant of how they play out in "real life"
> as opposed to on paper, which I suspect Lorrey is a bit shaky on.

I'm interested in how they play out in real life. I don't see what
happens there that clearly from here.

> If he were better informed, he'd realize that class action, as it exists
> today, provides very little benefit to the plaintiffs. Some have argued
> that the plaintiffs in class action only serve to benefit the lawyers who
> are bringing the suits.

"Some"? "Only"?.  But what do you think? If the plaintiffs get some
payout that they would not have otherwise gotten isn't that still a benefit?

>  One of the key problems therein is that the lawyers have an incentive
> to settle, due to the burden on most civil court dockets, for substantial
> sums, but sums that are not sufficient to adequately recompense their
> clients.

Wouldn't the lawyers have incentives to maximise the payoff if they are
getting a percentage?

> The defendant company typically admits no wrongdoing in the
> settlement, the lawyers receive a sizable fee, and the plaintiffs receive
> pennies on the dollars of loss.  While certainly, -some!
> - class action suits are prosecuted effectively, an overwhelming
> plurality of them end in a settlement that's worthless in the sense
> that we've been discussing.

ie. With respect to being a substitute for the FDA?

> Now, lets imagine a system where we've doubled or tripled the
> number of cases of product liability. The courts would struggle to
> handle that kind of workload, thus providing even more incentive to
> settle and quickly.

Yes. Maybe. Certainly workloads transferred to judges and juries
still amount to work that has to be done. And perhaps less well.

> The stated goal of the suit - to punish the wrongdoer
> in order to provide a disincentive for further wrongdoing - is not met
> and further, the person who suffered the loss would not receive
> recompense.

If the system clogs.

> Sometimes, it pays to take a small dose of reality with your idealism.

I'm reading "your" as one's.  I don't think I have a lot of idealism.

> In a perfect world, I'd absolutely agree with the notion of axing the
> FDA. I'd certainly agree strongly that it needs systemic reforms right
> now.

In what respects? I think this line of exploration would take us onto
more useful ground. ie. Identifying what is specifically wrong with
the FDA, if anything, now. And therefore what would be real ways
to fix it.

>From memory the FDA was formed in 1906. A lots changes since
then, including the FDA I'm sure. But it's been  a couple of years
since I did an assignment relating to it.

>  But just blithely cutting out and hoping that the courts will solve
> the issues that arise is just a spank-fantasy. I think most of us
> recognize that reality is a bit more complicated than that.

Spank-fantasy must be US terminology. No. I get it :-)

Brett Paatsch 




From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 22 15:05:50 2005
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:05:50 -0400
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	OverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F33C5DA5BA60BB035A740A0B4EB0@phx.gbl>

I've got two schools of thought on this:
1) The Iraq war was illegal because all wars/invasions are illegal. (For 
example, in WW2, Germany waged an illegal war on France, Poland, etc. Then 
the allies waged an illegal war on Germany by invading Germany. After this 
point it's all arguing over what the right motivation is and that leads me 
to point #2).
2) Since the US Congress granted war poiwers to invade Iraq, the US 
Executive was acting legally in invading Iraq. It is up to each country to 
decide what is the appropriate motivation and vote. The US voted and decided 
to go to war and to continue to support the war effort.

BAL

>From: "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued 
>OverAnti-Aging Comments
>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:44 +1000
>
>Joseph Bloch wrote:
>
>>*sigh*
>>
>>Brett Paatsch wrote:
>>
>>>The body count in Iraq of innocent
>>>civilians is probably around 20,000 or so based on a UN estimate
>>>I read about in the Australian. Thats about five times the amount
>>>of 'innocent' bystanders that were killed on September 11.
>>
>>
>>That number includes (indeed, by a vast majority) those innocent civilians 
>>killed by the Islamist and Baathist insurgents. 
>>(http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)
>>
>>Your statement makes it appear as if the 20,000 Iraqi civilians were all 
>>killed by coalition forces, when in fact the truth is that the vast 
>>majority were killed by the very terrorists who we are fighting against. 
>>BUT EVEN SO...
>
>I didn't mean to imply that 20,000 were killed by coalition forces.
>
>Whether the Iraq war was legal or not IS something determineable by
>investigation between fair minded reasonable people with some
>understanding of law.  I am not sure how many people could pass
>through the caveats in that sentence however. Those that think they
>can may be right in thinking so.
>
>I would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument from
>the American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was legal
>(not amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally savvy
>person who knows the case) because I have seen the arguments from
>the Australians and during the recent election in the UK more came out
>about the basis of the British decision under Goldsmith. The Brits and
>Blair allowed themselves to be persuaded but not by any legal argument
>I have seen nor that I am aware of that any US citizen has seen or has
>inquired into.
>
>I am 100% genuine on this. If there is any US citizen reading this list
>that honestly feels qualified and can place their hand on or refer me
>to a link that they personally find legally persuasive that shows that the
>Iraq invasion was not illegal then I would really like to hear from them.
>(Mike, with respect, I don't regard you as qualified so you would need
>to have excellent sources or I'd think I'd be wasting my time).
>
>I know Greg Burch is a lawyer and I understand that he disagrees
>with me but I don't know if he took a good look at the legality of
>the Iraq war and concluded that it was legal or not. If he did I'd
>respect him enough to take a look at his case and to be pursuaded
>on the evidence. I can change my mind.
>
>But I suspect what happened is that Greg didn't look. Perhaps
>I am being unfair to Greg and if I am I will owe him an apology
>but I think the US legal savvy extropes were asleep or focussed
>elsewhere when the legalities of the Iraq invasion was being
>worked through. That did disappoint me a bit. On this list way before
>the invasion took place I posted about the possibility of two hoaxes,
>one being that clonaid had a clone, the other being that Iraq had
>weapons of mass destruction - a check of the archives will bear me
>out on this. We on this list were in a position to discuss the game
>theoretic implications and we did not do it. I tried but there were
>not enough takers.
>
>If it was an illegal invasion and the sovereignty of a UN country was
>violated against a US oath, (and an Australian and a United Kingdom
>one) then to my mind a fairly large part of the consequences of
>resistance to illegal force sheets back to the US regardless and the
>Bush administration regardless (and the Howard government regardless)
>of whether those resisting are bathists or people otherwise objectionable
>to the current power in fashion that labels their opponents terrorists.
>
>
>>During Saddam's 20-year reign, around 750,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. 
>>That's an average of 3,125 per month. Even if you lay all of the deaths of 
>>civilians (mostly caused by suicide bombers, insurgent mortar attacks, and 
>>drive-by-shootings by terrorists), at the coalition's doorstep since the 
>>end of major combat operations (May, 2003 - June 2005), you get 769 per 
>>month.
>
>I am not even slightly defending anything that Saddam Hussein did. What
>he did is beside the legal point. And the law is what must matter to us if
>we are going to have a rule that is not a rule of faith or a rule of power.
>
>
>>Hmmm.
>>
>>During Saddam's regime, 3,125 a month killed.
>>
>>After his ouster, 769 a month killed (mostly by Islamic and Baathist 
>>terrorists).
>>
>>Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic terrorists. 
>>But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce make incremental 
>>progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving 2,356 lives a month on 
>>average?
>>
>>Pardon my bluntness, but Sweet Reason, man! We're SAVING lives every day 
>>that we're there! If Saddam had been left in power, some 61,000 people 
>>would be dead right now that are alive.
>
>Your missing my point Joseph. And I am not missing yours. I did take a 
>quick
>look at the site reference you provided and it looks like a fairly 
>reasonably
>source so far I could tell quickly. I can freely see that some good can 
>come
>of actions even illegal actions.
>
>I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve of
>construction?" with respect to Iraq.
>
>Please don't make the mistake of miss characterising me as anti-American
>(if anything I'm pro - although I'm Australian), or anti-Repulican, (I'm 
>neither
>Republican nor Democrat by sympathy), nor am I a passivist. (I thought
>the invasion of Afganistan *was* legal, and I thought George H W Bush's
>conduct in the first Gulf War was very creditable and moral and legal and
>upright. I say these things only to try and get you to see that I am not
>someone that is going to be easily classified into the nut job, disaffected
>or disillusioned opponent category.
>
>I was and am a largely disinterested observer with the exception that I
>want progress to be real and I recognize that we need to uphold some
>rule of law, some decency for that to happen, otherwise all that changes
>is which particular group dies.
>
>The dying can slow down, all the way across the board, when the critical
>thinking picks up. The tragedy of Iraq was that it shows the level of 
>thinking
>that we (humans) were capable of through our institutions.
>
>We (humans) need to do a lot better. Or the whole transhumanist thing
>is going to continue to look like pie in the sky.
>
>Sorry, I didn't mean to rant at you ;-)
>
>And the transhumanist thing *may* be pie in the sky anyway.
>
>Regards,
>Brett Paatsch
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 22 15:15:19 2005
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:15:19 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42B95F7E.7020501@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F208344D8076E8A634C0399B4EB0@phx.gbl>

How is the US acting like a client-state for Israel? I'd like to hear this 
justification. Try not to mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion 
please.

BAL

>From: Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:54:22 +0100
>
>spike wrote:
>
>>>bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brett Paatsch
>>>
>>>
>>...
>>
>>>I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve of
>>>construction?" with respect to Iraq.
>>>
>>>
>>...
>>
>>
>>>Regards, Brett Paatsch
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks Brett, ja I am a super-optimist on the Arab world.  That whole blue 
>>finger thing wasn't just Hollywood, those people risked their asses to 
>>vote.  I am proud of them, I really am.  They showed the spirit of courage 
>>and determination, to go out in the face of death threats by the 
>>islamofacists.  The genie of democracy will not be stuffed back into the 
>>bottle.  Rather it will spread across the
>>land like a giant wave.
>>
>>My vision of the next couple decades in Iraq and the Arab
>>world sees an ever growing percentage of the population
>>deciding, as did Europe, that they really do not need
>>religion in their lives.  As in Europe and to some degree
>>
>>
>Doubtful, especially since the US had the secular Arab states as being top 
>of its list for knocking over, starting with Iraq and then (if things had 
>gone well) Syria.
>
>The fact is that only Islam is standing against US neo-imperialism and this 
>counts for a lot. The fact that the US acts like a client state for Israel 
>just makes things worse. There will be no peace in the ME until the 
>Palestinian problem is resolved.
>
>As for Iraq, I see it breaking up into three states.
>In the North a defacto Kurdish democratic republic, assuming Turkey does 
>not invade.
>In the centre a Sunni Islamic state.
>In the South a very pro-Iranian Shiite state which may or may not be 
>Islamic.
>Only the Kurds will express any gratitude to the West.
>
>--
>Dirk
>
>The Consensus:-
>The political party for the new millenium
>http://www.theconsensus.org
>
>
>
>--
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>
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>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 15:29:17 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:29:17 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F208344D8076E8A634C0399B4EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F208344D8076E8A634C0399B4EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <42B983CD.8010804@neopax.com>

Brian Lee wrote:

> How is the US acting like a client-state for Israel? I'd like to hear 
> this justification. Try not to mention the Protocols of the Elders of 
> Zion please.
>
By blocking every Un coindemnation of Israeli actions.
Supplying it with money, technology and weapons with no caveats 
concerning its behaviour.
By failing to impose sanctions when Israel fails to abide by its 
committments.

Oh.. Protocols of the Elders of Zion...
Here, let me put a few words in your mouth, since I seem to see where 
you are coming from...
"Criticism of Israel = AntiSemitic Nazi"

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 22 16:05:02 2005
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:05:02 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42B983CD.8010804@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F381714263E535B982386E4B4EB0@phx.gbl>

Your evidence below does not justify an extremist statement like "the US is 
a client state for Israel". I brough up the Protocols not because you were 
criticising Israel (which I don't think you were) but for mentioning the 
conspiracy theory that Israel is pulling the US' strings.

BAL

>From: Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:29:17 +0100
>
>Brian Lee wrote:
>
>>How is the US acting like a client-state for Israel? I'd like to hear this 
>>justification. Try not to mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion 
>>please.
>>
>By blocking every Un coindemnation of Israeli actions.
>Supplying it with money, technology and weapons with no caveats concerning 
>its behaviour.
>By failing to impose sanctions when Israel fails to abide by its 
>committments.
>
>Oh.. Protocols of the Elders of Zion...
>Here, let me put a few words in your mouth, since I seem to see where you 
>are coming from...
>"Criticism of Israel = AntiSemitic Nazi"
>
>--
>Dirk
>
>The Consensus:-
>The political party for the new millenium
>http://www.theconsensus.org
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 21/06/2005
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 16:20:49 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:20:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F381714263E535B982386E4B4EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F381714263E535B982386E4B4EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <42B98FE1.7040905@neopax.com>

Brian Lee wrote:

> Your evidence below does not justify an extremist statement like "the 
> US is a client state for Israel". I brough up the Protocols not 
> because you were criticising Israel (which I don't think you were) but 
> for mentioning the conspiracy theory that Israel is pulling the US' 
> strings.
>
If you look *really carefully* you will see my actual statement was:
"...the US acts like a client state for Israel"

Not *IS* a client state for Israel.
And if you want the opinion that really matters, ask the Arabs.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org


> BAL
>
>> From: Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] RE: Iraq and legality again
>> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:29:17 +0100
>>
>> Brian Lee wrote:
>>
>>> How is the US acting like a client-state for Israel? I'd like to 
>>> hear this justification. Try not to mention the Protocols of the 
>>> Elders of Zion please.
>>>
>> By blocking every Un coindemnation of Israeli actions.
>> Supplying it with money, technology and weapons with no caveats 
>> concerning its behaviour.
>> By failing to impose sanctions when Israel fails to abide by its 
>> committments.
>>
>> Oh.. Protocols of the Elders of Zion...
>> Here, let me put a few words in your mouth, since I seem to see where 
>> you are coming from...
>> "Criticism of Israel = AntiSemitic Nazi"
>>
>> -- 
>> Dirk
>>
>> The Consensus:-
>> The political party for the new millenium
>> http://www.theconsensus.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 
>> 21/06/2005
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>




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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 16:46:57 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <42B86C83.6070107@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Now the luddites are committing murder...

--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:

> I hope nobody we know is attending Bio 2005 
> (http://www.bio.org/events/2005/)...
> 
> http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html
> 
> Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City 
> Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has
> died 
> after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.
> 
> The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack
> but 
> homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.
> 
> Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and
> police 
> that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. Some 
> protesters were seen being taken away in handcuffs by police after
> the 
> incident. The fallen officer was taken away in an ambulance.
> 
> Police department spokesman Jim Pauley said Williams was pronounced
> dead 
> at Hahnemann University Hospital shortly after 1 p.m.
> 
> The street in front of the convention center is now closed to
> traffic. 
> Earlier, protesters chanted and pounded on drums, and blocked the 
> entrance to the convention center.
> 
> Several hundred protesters had started marching to the Convention
> Center 
> from 16th and Arch Streets before 12 p.m.
> 
> Some groups associated with a wave of violent attacks on
> biotechnology 
> companies said in advance they planned demonstrations outside the 
> Biotech convention center Tuesday.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 16:50:11 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:50:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With
	Biotech	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B996C3.9080901@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>Now the luddites are committing murder...
>
>  
>
Nothing new about that.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From John-C-Wright at sff.net  Wed Jun 22 16:54:39 2005
From: John-C-Wright at sff.net (John-C-Wright at sff.net)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:54:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and Reality - a polite response to Mr.
	Paatsch. The Problem of Pain. 
Message-ID: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>

I should start, as is apparently my wont, with an apology: this reply is tardy
because I did not realize Mr. Paatsch had written me back. If the conversation
has moved on to nobler topics, forgive me for returning to a prior point, but I
do not wish to have my silence make him cross, as it has apparently done in
times past. 

Mr. Paatsch has done me the honor of writing; I must do him the courtesy of
responding candidly:

Q: To call an embryo a child is to beg the important ethical
question of what status that human entity ought have by
presuming to answer it in the formation of the question. 
That is why I see it as biased or misleading to use the
term child. 

A: This is well said, and I understand your point. I disagree with the
conclusion: people can discuss capital punishment or euthanasia without
insisting that these people be called monsters or vegetables. As far as I can
tell, it does not dispose of the question to call the entity in the womb a
child; if it is a child with no brain activity, the argument can be made, with
no violence to the English language, to say its right to life has not yet
vested. We can have a perfectly ration discussion on that point whether we call
the entity a child or not. 

In any case, the world ?child? means what it means in the English language. I
used the word correctly, as the dictionary confirms. Unless you call the
authority of the dictionary into question, there is no further ground for
dispute. You cannot claim I am using the word in a fashion alien to its common
use.  

In the alternate, even if the use were prejudicial, that is, entirely
dispositive of the case, you would need to show the use incorrect before you
could level your accusation. 

Suppose that if you and I were debating a proof in geometry, and I put forth the
theorem of Pythagoras. Suppose you realized that the theorem of Pythagoras is a
conclusion forced from the definition of a Euclidian right triangle, as well as
the definitions, common notions, and axioms of Euclidian geometry. There no
merit to the argument that my defining ?right triangle? in a certain way forces
one to the conclusion. The argument must be on whether the entity under
discussion has the properties of a right triangle whether we call it that or not. 

My argument, given in detail elsewhere on this list, is that a father?s duty to
preserve his children from harm, and see to their health and upbringing,
logically excludes taking acts which kill the child, whether done at the point
when the child is a mere mass of cells with no recognizable eternal human
characteristics, or later. The argument does not change if we change the terms
in which it is cast. 

Finally, your word use here confirms my use. An ?embryo? is a stage of
development through which a child passes. You cannot logically call the entity
under discussion an embryo without also allowing that is it a child; the one set
includes the other (Embryo being a stage of child development, ergo all embryos
are children; not all children are embryos). To say an ?embryo? is not a ?child?
is as if to say that an ?adolescent? is not a ?human being.? Adolescence is a
stage of human development.  

Q: I found your recourse to a dictionary to justify your use
of the word to be disingenuous and potentially deceitful
given that Samantha and Damien had already objected 
to the term. 

A: Are you sure you mean to use the word ?deceitful? in this sentence? Deceit
implies that I have a secret knowledge which I am keeping from my victims. In
this case, the knowledge is public. Anyone can look in a dictionary. How can
looking in a dictionary to confirm the proper use of a word be a deceit? Look
for yourself if you don?t believe me. 

Notice that I corrected my use of the word ?slay? which appeared in the original
letter near the beginning of this digression. There, the dictionary confirmed
that I was using the word incorrectly: I published a retraction. Was my recourse
to the dictionary ?potentially deceitful? in the first case but not in the second? 

Q: You seemed to be trying to use your skill
with words to steal a position and stack a debate rather
than to make your case on its merit.

A: Good grief. Thank you for the compliment, but I fear my skill with words is
less than it should be. My argument stands or falls by its logic, not in how it
is presented. 

Q: A general dictionary definition of the word child is the
wrong tool to establish the meaning of the word child?.

A: This contradicts itself and needs no comment from me. 

Q: as you intended to stretch it and you ought to have
damn well known it.

A: If I were stretching the definition of the word, that means I would be taking
the meaning of the word and applying to a context where it is not properly set,
not in the contemplation of the average use of the word. The average use of the
word is reflected in the dictionary. That is what dictionaries are. 

The first and primary use in the first dictionary I consulted was ?an unborn or
recently born human being.? The fourth use was ?the immediate progeny of human
parents?; the seventh was ?product or result.? 

For the logic of my argument to run, I need only be allowed the seventh
definition: if a father has a duty to protect his products until fully
developed, he cannot fulfill that duty if he destroys that product in an early
stage of development. Hence, even if the duty obtains in the later stage of the
development, the nature of cause and effect requires him to take care to protect
the early stages nonetheless. Q.E.D. 

I was actually surprised the first definition was utterly unambiguous. I assume
other dictionaries might have a different first definition, but no one was
skilled enough in debate to quote any authority in contradistinction to the
authority I quoted. Hence, we have one expert witness on my side, and nothing on
your side, except a restatement of the case you seek to prove. I would love to
go before a jury with a case like this. 

Q: If you thought you were the average mug American that needed to consult a
dictionary to determine the meaning of the word child you would not be sending a
post to this list headed "Famous author self destructs in public".

A: If I had titled it ?man who would like to be a famous author someday has a
swelled head? would that convince you that my flight to the dictionary was
sincere? I will point out that I did not use the word ?slay? correctly. I
actually got the definition wrong. And you need only look at my misspelling of
?euphemism? which heads this thread to note that I should fly to the dictionary
more often. 

Also keep in mind that authors, famous or not, are the employees and servants of
average American mugs, not their superiors. If you buy my book, that means I
work for you. It?s like throwing coins in the hat of a street clown. The
argument stands or falls by its logic, not by who makes the argument. 

Q: (responding to  ?as I said, I have not the patience to debate the point?) Let
me be very clear on this point. I don't regard you as someone who I or anyone
else here has an obligation to humor or to be deferential to.

A: Whoa, whoa! I never said anything of the kind! Far be it from me to expect
deference from anyone. 

I apologize for the way I phrased this comment: on second reading, I find (to my
surprise) that it certainly sounds arrogant, and so I cannot blame you for
reading it that way. My meaning was humbler.

I meant only that definitional arguments, by their very nature, are futile. Even
for the most skilled debater in the world, once you look up what a disputed word
means, the dispute is over. Once you look in a dictionary, you know the
definition. End of story. I cannot continue the debate even if I wanted to:
there is nothing more to say. 

I am not actually impatient, as the existence of this letter shows; that was
merely an unfortunate turn of phrase. 

Q: So far I am not greatly impressed with what I have
seen of John C Wright who claims to have been visited
by "the Holy Paraclete (sic)" and thinks that morality can
be objectively grounded in a world view that includes a 
the christian God, (when I asked you to give your 
explanation of the problem of evil you declined saying
that that had been addressed by others more capable 
than you - you dodged the hard personal question), so
in short I don't care about trying your patience.

A: Hmm? That spelling of Paraclete is correct, and the term was used correctly
in the sentence. I just flew to my dictionary to confirm. Why did you (sic) the
use? Just curious. 

As for ?dodging the hard personal question?, I think you misunderstood my
meaning, and I surely misunderstood yours. I thought you were asking about the
nature of the standard Christian doctrine, a question others are better
qualified to answer than am I. For example:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060652969/103-3529136-9475828?v=glance
and http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104902.htm. Both these men are smarter than
me, and can answer better. 

But, here, you characterize it as a personal question. Clearly I can answer
better than anyone what it is that I personally believe. Now, mine is not the
normal Christian belief, and I so I was slightly reluctant to espouse
unorthodoxy; further I was slightly reluctant to further impose upon the
Extropians by discussing theology, which is a topic outside the scope of what
this forum is meant to address. However, because you have called my honor into
question, I must answer appear with my seconds and answer the challenge. 

First, the problem of pain involves not merely Christianity, but any religion
postulating a benevolent omnipotence. Second, even profound theologians confess
the matter to be mysterious at its root. No one pretends we have a clear or
satisfactory answer. That said, we can outline a general conclusion: 

The problem is that a benevolent omnipotence could not coexist in a world of
pain: if the pain exists, either the Almighty lacks the power to remove it,
which argues Him not omnipotent; or lacks the willingness to remove it, which
argues him not benevolent. 

Arguments in opposition often postulate a limit to Omnipotence: namely, that the
pain cannot be cured save in a certain way, and therefore cannot be abolished
immediately.

Arguments in opposition seek to prove that the world?s pain is either (1)
illusionary (2) medicinal or (3) judicial. 

The first response has the flavor of Buddhism or Christian Science, which says
that attachment to desire (in the case of Buddhism) or moral error (in the case
of Christian Science) render us prone to an illusion from which we can wake. 

The second response has the flavor of theosophy or New Age mysticism, which says
that, before birth, we volunteered or consented to suffer the pain of the world
in order to achieve spiritual growth, this growth being unavailable without pain. 

The third response is the mainstream Christian doctrine: pain is the penalty for
our sinful natures. Not every act of sin triggers a specific response of pain,
nor is the pain distributed evenly; but the general condition of Man, as a
fallen being, renders him and his children, vulnerable to the caprice of
fortune, sickness and mortality. The Hindu view is similar, but placing the
original sin not with Adam, but with each individual in a former life, who earns
a Karmic debt, for which current suffering must atone.

The last two responses taken together argue that the pain is legitimate, and
hence, endurable. 

My own opinion is a combination of all three responses. As does the pagan Stoic,
I believe pain exists in the judgment only: that is, a man does not consider
pain a bad thing in and of itself, but only if he additionally consents to judge
it as bad. This is a matter within the control of his will. The will controls
the faculties of the mind, including the consent of judgment. Unlike the Stoic,
I believe divine grace is needed to achieve this dispassionate state of mind.
Compare, for example, the stoic nobility of the death of Socrates with the
ecstasy of the martyrs. I hold that Christians, by the grace of God, can do what
Stoics propose to do, but cannot, and overcome the illusion of pain. 

I believe in something like original sin or Karmic debt. Whether it is literal
or metaphorical I cannot say, but even a cursory examination of the world around
me convinces me that the Spirit of Man (if not the body) is fallen from a high
estate, not evolved upward from a low one: whatever the origin of the nature of
sin is, it is clear from a cursory examination that all men indulge in it, to a
greater degree or less (myself included).  If fallen, then no matter what their
original dignity, the spirit of man must suffer, and even omnipotence cannot
save him from himself against his own consent. The fallen live in a world of
misfortune.  

Here is why: logically, creatures either will have total control of their
environment, or else will be prey to fortune and suffer meaningless accidents
because they lack total control. Granting fallen man total control of his
environment would be tantamount to Hell. Just imagine what we would do to each
other if all matter and energy obeyed our each thought. Hence, mercy grants us
less than total control, but this leaves us open to pointless accidents and
suffering that serves no specific judicial or medicinal purpose. It is a
meaningless general suffering brought about as a logical consequence of our
fallen estate.  

That said, some pain, at least, is medicinal. I would still be an atheist had I
not suffered what, to outside observers, looked like a frightening and mortal
ordeal: I had a stroke. I say to outside observers because, oddly enough, that
tribulation was the happiest day of my life. I took no pain killers, no drugs,
but the joy in my heart drove all pain away. During those days, the illusion,
for me, was broken; and, even now, it has less power to do me hurt or cause me
fear than before. 

That said, some pain, at least, is illusionary. Death I hold to be an illusion:
we don?t die. The fear and pain surrounding this great horror of mortality will
vanish like a nightmare upon waking to immortality; and an infinite bliss will
surrounded the blessed souls in the promised life to come. Compared to that, our
current pains will seem small things indeed.

There is a fourth and final answer which is purely mystical. I live in the hope
that, somehow, in a fashion unknown to me, the promise that all tears will be
wiped away, and all harmed healed, shall come to pass. 

I do not expect this answer to be sufficient to convince a skeptic: it is merely
a brief recital of a conclusion to which no supporting proof is given. I offer
it here merely to contradict the slander against my intellectual courage. I do
not dodge questions, although, from time to time, politely, I attempt to spare
people from the torment of listening to me drone on. 

Q: On the contrary you will have to be on your very best behavior
for me to feel that I am not wasting my time talking to
you, or worse, that I might be giving a close minded 
rhetorican and professional pest the tools to spread the
next generation of bullshit to the faithful.

A: One of the more dubious pleasures of talking to Extropians is that, with one
or two shining exceptions, none of you think it odd or rude to halt in the
middle of a philosophical discussion on some topic utterly unrelated to
Christianity, to express your contempt for me, and hatred and malice for my
Church and my faith. It is done all the time, unconsciously, as automatically as
blessing someone when he sneezes. 

The phenomena is a peculiar one and merits study. Myself, I suspect the cause is
supernatural rather than psychological or philosophical. 

I don?t mind. We get points for it, you know. ?Blessed are you when men revile
you, and persecute you, and speak all manner of evil against you falsely because
of me.?

However, in terms of logic, the comments are ad Hominem and therefore
irrelevant. They have no persuasive or informative value one way or the other: I
consider them to be throat-clearing, a meaningless noise one makes when one is
at a loss for words. 

That said, I will take your comments to heart, sir, and will endeavor to be on
my best behavior. 

Q: Bollocks. That?s not my argument, you are trying to put
words into my mouth. 

A: You may compare your argument with my comment about what the argument implies
and draw your own conclusion. I believe I am being fair in this case.

Q: If you believe in God you might do well to be careful
of the prohibitions and consequence of bearing false
witness.  

A: Throat-clearing. 

Q: (responding to ?Please note that no one in this discussion misunderstood to
which unborn human entity my word referred.?) You are guessing that no one
misunderstood it. Whether readers did or not you cannot know. 

A: Excuse me, but is your argument based on the idea that when I used the word
?child? some people reading my words thought I was referring not to the child in
the womb in the hypothetical, but to some other, unrelated child, such as a
cousin or something? 

That's silly.

I think you mean to say that the word I used implied something about the nature
of the entity to which the word referred, an implication not allowed by the
other side of the argument. 

I am pretty safe in my assumption that a reasonable man, reading the English
words I wrote in the order I wrote them, knew to which entity my words referred,
even if there was and is an honest disagreement about the status and nature of
the entity. 

Q: What is clear is that you persisted with a term that others found objectionable. 

A: Certainly. Logic said that their objections were invalid, merely emotional,
unworthy of serious consideration. 

I am slightly embarrassed that honor requires me to continue in this so-called
discussion, where the partisans of Political Correctness have actually achieved
their goal of derailing the original conversation (which was about moral
relativity; abortion was brought up only as a tangential example.) 

The economics of the situation reward such behavior: it is like kicking over a
chessboard when in check. If the partisans of Political Correctness can raise
such a stink over non-meritorious arguments, men of less patience and fortitude
than myself will simply accede to their language-demeaning practices, it not
being worth their time to contest the imposition. Eventually, all men will adopt
Newspeak, and rational criticism of Big Brother will become grammatically
impossible (which is the sole point of Newspeak, after all).

Q: You chose propaganda instead of communication. 

A: I suppose that depends on the meaning of the word. Flying once again to my
dictionary, I find that the primary meaning of the term is ?dissemination of
ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an
institution, a cause, or a person.?

Yes. Certainly I was doing that. I was disseminating an idea for the purpose of
helping a cause or a person (in this case, persons like my son, who, until
birth, live without the protection of the law.) 

I think you mean to say that my rhetoric was artificial or dishonest or
something of the sort. I note the irony that you violate the principle of
agnosticism you uttered previously: you are claiming to be able to read my mind,
and discover a dishonest purpose there, but you claim I cannot read the mind of
my readers to understand whether or not I can make myself understood. 

In any case, this is ad Hominem; throat-clearing.

Q: I thought your pretense, even deceit, was to presume to set the record
straight whilst embedding the crookedness within it at a subtler level. 

A: Here you lost me. I am not sure which thing I said this refers to. 

Q: You apologise and pretend to be courteous and deferential frequently.
Frankly, I for one, do not trust that you are sincere.

A: Would you prefer that I were rude to you, you cur? 

Sorry, just kidding. You are not a cur. 

Seriously, rudeness is merely ad Hominem: throat-clearing. It is irrelevant;
pointless. It also slows the conversation, and making discourse it a chore
rather than a pleasure. I am writing a polite answer to your slanders because my
sense of duty requires it, not because I am inclined to. 

I also would like to avoid rudeness because I have never once seen a rude person
convinced by a logical argument. Perhaps it happens, but I have never seen it. I
assume rude people do not have the self-command needed to order their words and
actions in public; my speculation is that they cannot order their thoughts
according to the discipline of logic. When I detect myself being rude (which
happens frequently), that is a signal to me that my reason is trying to abdicate
its government of my soul (which happens frequently). 

It is comically difficult for me, proud as Lucifer himself, to answer childish
insult and slander with good will. But I will not complain: the humility is good
for me. This is one of those medicinal pains of which I spoke earlier. My
arrogance is something larger than Fenrir, the world-destroying wolf bound up
with gossamer. If I don?t feed him, maybe he won?t get any bigger. If I manage
to starve the monster, things might go well for me when Gotterdammerung rolls
around. 

So I am not being polite to please you, or please myself. It is merely a duty. 

Q: I will give you another chance. I am doing that by
writing to you rather than ignoring you.

A: Thank you; I appreciate the courtesy. I hope the above letter satisfies you
as to my bona fides. If not, please keep in mind that we need not agree on every
point (certainly not on so minor a point as terminology) to proceed with a
discussion on topics of mutual interest in other areas. 

John C. Wright




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 17:14:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Life in Biosphere 1
In-Reply-To: <02ca01c576c6$81ad5630$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050622171453.4686.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Lifespan Pharma Inc wrote:
> 
> > That [below] probably sums up why many people ignore most
> > everything except what their neighbours and friends and family
> > tell them by experience works.
> >
> > They assume that 99% is bullshit and watch for others to sift
> through the 
> > shit to findthe shinola.
> > In the past when change came slowly this worked well.
> > Now as change accelerates the risk is that the shinola to shit
> ratio is 
> > increasing and the old patterns are
> > reducing the public acceptance and utilization of the benefits of
> change.
> 
> I'm not sure that the ratio is changing. I'm not confident that its
> 99 : 1 but I don't think its substantially changing. 

Thanks for the support. Part of the problem is the instant
gratification reflex, the "I want it now" that is a reflex to effective
advertising. I doubt anyone has ever been permanently immune to it,
because we all have needs or wants that have been searching for a
solution for a while, so when we see a product that claims to be the
solution, we jump at it, particularly if the need is great and the
ability to pay is there (and the ad is good). This is the power of QVC,
Amazon.com, etc. in not having to lift one's big butt off the couch,
away from the tv/pc to gratify ones needs.

Instant gratification generally occurs before one engages in comparison
or value shopping. Some people who are not so instinctively wired are
able to resist the urge and investigate. When one is at the grocery
store, one can compare brands for ingredients, nutritional value, and
quantity per dollar, among other factors.

Comparison shopping capabilities abound on the internet: shopzilla,
smartshopper, mysimon, etc. all offer these services. Intelligent
agents for such functions were one thing that Sasha was working on
before he died, we used to discuss them on occasion (I still recall the
wave of enlightenment across the faces of the Bostropians when I
explained what SKU stood for... good times). I put high odds against
those who complain most about getting shafted on internet purchases
have ever used a comparison shopping website.

> I think technology has made
> it easier to educate the average person to a level where the average
> person today is genuinely more knowledgeable about science and
> about other people than the average person of previous generations.

Quite so. At the very least, the availability of the information freely
online clearly speaks to the empirical fact that ignorance is the
intent of the ignorant, leading the ignorant to knowledge is usually a
waste of energy (how many list members have read the Geneva Conventions
since the last time we discussed the issue, for instance???? ;)) if the
intended recipient is not inclined to pursue the information.

> 
> The base is going up I think, but the median is holding the lead back
> through the social constructions that are democratic government, and
> that may not be a bad thing, for the mean. And it is a problem for
> the lead that can be addressed in different ways.
> 
> > This especially applies to the rural communities as opposed to the
> > urban ones disproportionately.
> 
> You might be right here. Rural communities in Australia and the US
> are likely to be somewhat less hooked in to the sort of technology
> that helps speed the process of education - such as broadband
> internet connections etc.
> 
> And if you look to the developing world that would certainly be
> the case.

It is to be expected that as more people get on the net, the
'democranetization' that so many have pined for, the lowest common
denominator will drop precipitously. Those who thought
democranetization would result in PBS quality programming were out to
lunch. World Wrestling Federation and Ginsu Knife commercial spam was
always the more likely result. As it spreads to the non-anglosphere,
expect cock-fights, bear baiting, Sendero Luminoso propaganda as well
as local cultural repeats of passe cultural viruses that have long been
prevalent in anglo culture (chain letters, snake oil, pyramid schemes,
etc)


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Jun 22 17:18:54 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:18:54 -0400
Subject: substituting the FDA was (Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	etc)
In-Reply-To: <038c01c57732$bf5f9670$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-B674FC16E34111D9919F000393A47D36@[70.7.168.33]>

 (6/23/05 0:00) Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>> If he were better informed, he'd realize that class action, as it exists
>> today, provides very little benefit to the plaintiffs. Some have argued
>> that the plaintiffs in class action only serve to benefit the lawyers who
>> are bringing the suits.
>
>"Some"? "Only"?.  But what do you think? If the plaintiffs get some
>payout that they would not have otherwise gotten isn't that still a benefit?

It can be.  However, the 'real' payoff is typically pennies on the dollar of loss and the courts allow companies to avoid cash payouts by reimbursing plaintiffs with vouchers for more (substandard) products.  And it is this way for a reason.  The legal system avoids whatare de facto corporate death penalties.  Lets say you're a pharma company, and you've released a new painkiller.  This painkiller is found to cause irreversible heart damage and heart failure.  A class action suit is brought.  There are 100,000 members of the class - not an unreasonable number. (Understand also that there is very little done to vet the class for eligibility. Typically, you simply have to sign saying that you meet the criteria) 

Now, what is the value of permanent damage or death in the courts. That can vary wildly. But lets call it $10M, because I remember seeing wrongful death judgements both higher and lower than that.  Now. 10^7 * 10^5 = 10^12.  1 trillion dollars. Ain't no company going to pay that out.  

Now we can argue whether that number is meaningful and we can argue if the human loss is worth that amount of money (and how do you compute that? Doctor's bills + funeral costs + lost wages?).  But ultimately, the courts decide what amounts are reasonable and the amounts I'm talking about are in that range. So, by definition, if the loss is $10^12, and the total payout is $10^9, the plaintiffs are getting shortchanged by 3 orders of magnitude. Ouch. And I haven't even talked about the fact that the lawyers keep between 10 and 33% of the payoff...


>
>>  One of the key problems therein is that the lawyers have an incentive
>> to settle, due to the burden on most civil court dockets, for substantial
>> sums, but sums that are not sufficient to adequately recompense their
>> clients.
>
>Wouldn't the lawyers have incentives to maximise the payoff if they are
>getting a percentage?

Its actually another incentive to settle.  If we're talking a multibillion dollar case, a company with smart lawyers will drag it out. Its cheaper to be in court for years than to pay out, right? Plus, your shareholders rightly expect a vigorous defense.  The plaintiff's attorneys can take a settlement for 10% of the expected judgement right now, avoid a 10 year long case, and move on to the next case, which is better for them.


>> The defendant company typically admits no wrongdoing in the
>> settlement, the lawyers receive a sizable fee, and the plaintiffs receive
>> pennies on the dollars of loss.  While certainly, -some!
>> - class action suits are prosecuted effectively, an overwhelming
>> plurality of them end in a settlement that's worthless in the sense
>> that we've been discussing.
>
>ie. With respect to being a substitute for the FDA?

Yes.  Now, the schemes proposed by which UL or the Consumers Union vets the drugs have promise.  There will be ramifications for forcing consumers to pay for this research before being able to read it. (This is what CU does. UL listing is something else, and might be a better model.)  It certainly will have ramifications for the less-wealthy members of the populace.  That's an argument outside the scope of our current discussion.

>
>> Now, lets imagine a system where we've doubled or tripled the
>> number of cases of product liability. The courts would struggle to
>> handle that kind of workload, thus providing even more incentive to
>> settle and quickly.
>
>Yes. Maybe. Certainly workloads transferred to judges and juries
>still amount to work that has to be done. And perhaps less well.

More juries for longer time is a drain on the economy. More judges is an expansion of government payrolls....

>
>> The stated goal of the suit - to punish the wrongdoer
>> in order to provide a disincentive for further wrongdoing - is not met
>> and further, the person who suffered the loss would not receive
>> recompense.
>
>If the system clogs.

Its -already- clogged. :)

>
>> Sometimes, it pays to take a small dose of reality with your idealism.
>
>I'm reading "your" as one's.  I don't think I have a lot of idealism.

That's the right way to read it.  That 'your' was vague and untargetted.


>
>> In a perfect world, I'd absolutely agree with the notion of axing the
>> FDA. I'd certainly agree strongly that it needs systemic reforms right
>> now.
>
>In what respects? I think this line of exploration would take us onto
>more useful ground. ie. Identifying what is specifically wrong with
>the FDA, if anything, now. And therefore what would be real ways
>to fix it.
>

Part of the problem that I see with the FDA comes from my own experiences in the medical devices market.  The FDA has essentially one strategy for vetting devices, aids, drugs, etc. These things are not the same and need different treatments from any regulation. Another key reform I see as necessary is a 'caveat emptor' reform.  People should be able to volunteer for experiment treatments at will with no liability accruing to the company providing the treatment unless malfeasance is proven.  I believe that the latter will be necessary to preserve innovation in the medical field in the years to come. 

I'd also like to see an ombudsman system that would shed enough light on the decision-making process to make it more difficult for political appointees to influence the FDA's decision making process. But I don't know enough nitty-gritty details about that to make reasonable suggestions.


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 17:22:25 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:22:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Damn it!
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050621210648.01d02ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050622172225.43590.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just read it in the dead tree news. On the plus side, we now have more
intelligence on the reliability of Russian ICBMs.... ;)

I hope the Planetary Society was insured??? Perhaps they can try to
hitch a ride with SpaceX's launchers in the near future, if they can
build a new vessel.

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> 04:44 2005-06-22
> A Russian attempt to launch a solar sail vehicle designed to be
> propelled 
> by pressure from sunlight failed yet again because the booster rocket
> 
> suffered engine failure soon after it blasted into space, the state
> news 
> agency RIA-Novosti reported.
> 
> http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2005/06/22/60422.html 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 17:26:05 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:26:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] THE ONION issue for June 22, 2056
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050622122531.01d207e0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

http://www.theonion.com/2056-06-22/



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun 22 17:31:12 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:31:12 -0700
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	OverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F33C5DA5BA60BB035A740A0B4EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F33C5DA5BA60BB035A740A0B4EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1B6F7C81-6BD8-4891-91B5-FC5829FCD936@mac.com>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Brian Lee wrote:

> I've got two schools of thought on this:
> 1) The Iraq war was illegal because all wars/invasions are illegal.  
> (For example, in WW2, Germany waged an illegal war on France,  
> Poland, etc. Then the allies waged an illegal war on Germany by  
> invading Germany. After this point it's all arguing over what the  
> right motivation is and that leads me to point #2).
> 2) Since the US Congress granted war powers to invade Iraq, the US  
> Executive was acting legally in invading Iraq. It is up to each  
> country to decide what is the appropriate motivation and vote. The  
> US voted and decided to go to war and to continue to support the  
> war effort.
>

It is not at all clear to me that "war powers" were granted or that  
it is constitutional for Congress to grant "war powers" in the sense  
of enabling to use military force at will without formal  
Congressional authorization to the President.

But all that isn't what I find most EVIL about this war.  The people  
and congress were hoodwinked into a conflict we had no real reason  
for starting.  And no, it was not the fault of the CIA.   The real  
reasons for the war had nothing to do with WMD or regime change and  
certainly not the "liberation" of the Iraqi people.  The real reason  
is Oil and geopolitical positioning.   This is much of the real  
reason behind the so-called War on Terror as well.  That and the fact  
that the US has become the biggest debtor nation in the world with a  
seriously unbalanced and tipsy economy.

The war spends hundreds of billions, further inflames and strengthens  
those who would do us harm, and will RSN lead to a very draconian  
draft unless Bolton (or a slightly more palatable alternate) can  
browbeat the UN into providing a lot of troops.

In the meantime Patriot II waits in the wings to take away more of  
the freedom we are supposedly defending and increase the range and  
power of Big Brother at home.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun 22 17:33:58 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:33:58 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DB6DEAA0-CC35-4BFD-88D2-44EC4E838831@mac.com>

Uh, like he died from some medical thing like perhaps a heart  
attack.  I am no fan of this group of protestors to say the least.   
But a charge of murder is not justified.

-s

On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> Now the luddites are committing murder...
>
> --- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I hope nobody we know is attending Bio 2005
>> (http://www.bio.org/events/2005/)...
>>
>> http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html
>>
>> Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City
>> Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has
>> died
>> after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.
>>
>> The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack
>> but
>> homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.
>>
>> Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and
>> police
>> that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. Some
>> protesters were seen being taken away in handcuffs by police after
>> the
>> incident. The fallen officer was taken away in an ambulance.
>>
>> Police department spokesman Jim Pauley said Williams was pronounced
>> dead
>> at Hahnemann University Hospital shortly after 1 p.m.
>>
>> The street in front of the convention center is now closed to
>> traffic.
>> Earlier, protesters chanted and pounded on drums, and blocked the
>> entrance to the convention center.
>>
>> Several hundred protesters had started marching to the Convention
>> Center
>> from 16th and Arch Streets before 12 p.m.
>>
>> Some groups associated with a wave of violent attacks on
>> biotechnology
>> companies said in advance they planned demonstrations outside the
>> Biotech convention center Tuesday.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806)
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 18:21:10 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:21:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and Reality - a polite response
	to Mr. Paatsch. The Problem of Pain.
In-Reply-To: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050622131617.01e24340@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 11:54 AM 6/22/2005 -0500, John Wright wrote:

>A: One of the more dubious pleasures of talking to Extropians is that, 
>with one
>or two shining exceptions, none of you think it odd or rude to halt in the
>middle of a philosophical discussion on some topic utterly unrelated to
>Christianity, to express your contempt for me, and hatred and malice for my
>Church and my faith. It is done all the time, unconsciously, as 
>automatically as
>blessing someone when he sneezes.
>
>The phenomena is a peculiar one and merits study. Myself, I suspect the 
>cause is
>supernatural rather than psychological or philosophical.

This is an interesting perspective. Would you say a little more on this 
matter? Do you suspect that those posters on this list who express 
contempt, hatred and malice for you and Christianity are directly possessed 
by the devil when they do so? Or are they simply wicked fallen humans 
acting in accord with satanic principles? Or is there some other 
supernatural agency involved?

Damien Broderick




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 18:24:11 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swatting flies with tanks,
	was: Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <B9E77452-38A1-413B-9AB5-FC50073BD14E@gnat.com>
Message-ID: <20050622182412.65793.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Matthew Gingell <gingell at gnat.com> wrote:

> On Jun 21, 2005, at 9:43 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:
> 
> > Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic  
> > terrorists. But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce
>  
> > make incremental progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving  
> > 2,356 lives a month on average?
> 
> May 1, 2003 to June 1, 2005 is 25 months, so accepting your numbers  
> for the sake of argument that's a total of 2,356 * 25 = 58,900 lives 
> saved. I haven't kept up with every single supplemental  
> appropriation, but we're only really talking rough order of magnitude
>  here so lets call the cost about $200 billion spent. That comes out 

> to $3.4 million per life. If we think about the opportunity cost,  
> that is if we consider what we gave up when we spent this money on  
> Iraq rather than on something else, it's incredibly easy to think  
> that's a bad thing.
> 
> Imagine for an instant that we actually were interested in  
> accomplishing a humanitarian end measured in human lives. How many  
> mosquitos in malaria infested regions of Africa did we not kill?  
> Cholera kills far more people than crazy dictators: How many deep,  
> clean wells did we not dig? If in May 2003 I gave you $200 billion  
> and the entire U.S. military, and I told you your mission was to make
> the world a better place, would invading Iraq really be the best you 
> could do?

While I appreciate your logic, try mine on for size:

I would not use $200 billion and the entire US military to save people
from cholera or to dig wells or kill mosquitos (though we did use the
US military to do those things in Panama once when we were building a
canal). Why would I not do those things? Because they are too easy.
Using the US military to save people from malaria is like using an M-1
tank to swat a mosquito...... actually it is EXACTLY like doing that...
;) Pure overkill. Billions of dollars of taxpayer money and the US
military is supposed to be used for the HARD problems (like how JFK
once said, "we go to the moon not because it is easy, but because it is
hard...".

Curing people of malaria and saving them from Cholera is for private
philanthropists like Bill and Melinda Gates, the Red Cross, etc...
Private agencies can do the easy problems quite well and more cost
effectively than public agencies can. 

Using the US military is for the hard problems that require the power
to go and blow things up and kill lots of bad guys so the nice guy to
bad guy ratio in the world gets better (whether this could also be done
privately is a separate debate). We've been forced to accept some
curtailments on our liberties here in angloland recently because for
too long we tolerated a complete lack of them in some parts of the
world in the interest of keeping those areas stable for our benefit,
and we reaped the results. As Condi Rice was saying the other day, we
can't tolerate the tolerance of tyranny anymore. Both Crypto-pacifism
and moral relativism are anti-freedom concepts that need to go on the
dung-heap of history.

Some bad guys have to die if they refuse to get out of the way and let
people be free. Those bad guys are going to try to kill some good
people before they die, and are going to try to convince some gullible
people to support them and fight for them in the mean time, resulting
in more dead people. As the history books show, some 14,000 French
civilians died on D-day. It was a sad thing, but I doubt any sane
Frenchman today would say that D-day was a bad idea (whether they
appreciate the sacrifices of other nations is another matter).

Do I like how things are today? Not really, I went into a bank to make
change for a $100 bill the other day, and the teller asked me for my
name. I responded, "No," then "Let me amend that: Bloody hell no!"

Now, Bush has, in fact, not fulfilled his pledges for AIDS aid for
Africa, due to budget constraints, so the calculus of death folks are
dealing in should account for those things, granted, and of course, one
should also account for the number of lives saved in Iraq against the
lifetime taxes paid by the average American taxpayer (current and
future, given the deficit being run up). This might in the end come up
showing that we are wasting more taxpayer lives of labor (in taxes paid
for services not rendered to those taxpayers) than in lives being saved
in Iraq.

However, there should also be calculated that most of the $200 billion
spent in Iraq is an investment for the future. Saving 58,000 lives this
year and/or last year is small change compared to the millions of Iraqi
lives that will be saved over the coming decade or two, from not having
to live under the Hussein regime and its heirs. If we calculate 55,000
lives saved per two years, that is over a half million per twenty
years. Hussein's sons could easily have been expected to inherit and
wield his power for at least 20 if not 40 years into the future. Lets
say a million lives would be saved in the future by US investments in
Iraqi security today. Then we are just talking about $200,000.00 per
life saved, as a maximum, and only if we value the liberty of every
living Iraqi at zero. 

With a population of 26 million people, that is a payment of less than
$8,000.00 for the freedom of each Iraqi alive today. I realize that
some libertarians don't think the liberty of Iraqis is worth spending
two cents on.

Now, the population of Iraq, compared to that of the US today, is
approximately the same percentage as the population of african-american
slaves during the Civil War to the general population of the US. At
that time, we spent the equivalent of about $53 billion dollars ($3.3
billion in 1860 dollars adjusted for CPI ratio of 30:480, though this
ignores the postwar reconstruction costs, which amounted to an
additional $7 billion, or ~$100 billion today) and 300,000 American
lives then (in proportion to todays population, that would be like 3
million American casulaties today). Today we spend 33% more money
(likely transportation costs to transport people and goods from the US
to Iraq) and 1/2,000th the number of American deaths to achieve the
same end.

So, the real cost-benefit question is: Are 2.998 million American lives
worth spending an extra $50 billion? That is $16,677.79 per American
life that didn't need to be extinguished to free the Iraqi people in
the same way lives were spent in the US Civil War.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 18:34:45 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:34:45 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and Reality - a polite response	to Mr.
	Paatsch. The Problem of Pain.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050622131617.01e24340@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050622131617.01e24340@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42B9AF45.2050701@neopax.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 11:54 AM 6/22/2005 -0500, John Wright wrote:
>
>> A: One of the more dubious pleasures of talking to Extropians is 
>> that, with one
>> or two shining exceptions, none of you think it odd or rude to halt 
>> in the
>> middle of a philosophical discussion on some topic utterly unrelated to
>> Christianity, to express your contempt for me, and hatred and malice 
>> for my
>> Church and my faith. It is done all the time, unconsciously, as 
>> automatically as
>> blessing someone when he sneezes.
>>
>> The phenomena is a peculiar one and merits study. Myself, I suspect 
>> the cause is
>> supernatural rather than psychological or philosophical.
>
>
> This is an interesting perspective. Would you say a little more on 
> this matter? Do you suspect that those posters on this list who 
> express contempt, hatred and malice for you and Christianity are 
> directly possessed by the devil when they do so? Or are they simply 
> wicked fallen humans acting in accord with satanic principles? Or is 
> there some other supernatural agency involved?
>
Depends on a number of factors I expect.
For my part, I dislike Xianity, Judaism and Islam and generally take 
every opportunity to say so within contexts. Even so, I suspect that 
John Wright probably does not include me in the above description, 
although I may be mistaken.
However, if a Moslem, Jew or Xian is willing to discuss the issues I 
will generally treat them with respect because of who they are, not what 
they profess to believe.

I too have noticed here a kneejerk reaction against all kinds of 
religious and spiritual beliefs, ranging in tone from the incredibly 
naive to the casually vicious. We would do well to separate the 
personalities from the arguments, steer clear of ad hominem and snide 
remarks, and post only thoughtout responses to serious issues.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 19:00:38 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-3F5E27D0E30811D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20050622190038.31843.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:

>  (6/22/05 10:42) Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> >Ultimately I think all intelligent people to be successful in a
> competitive
> >world do need to know the law reasonably well. Even scientists 
> >and technologists are well advised to go slum it in the humanities 
> >occassionally because the humanities or inhumanities will cause them
> >untold or told amounts of grief if they do not. 
> 
> 
> This is absolutely true. But you assume that I'm completely ignorant
> of the law (i.e. you've taken Lorrey at his word).  I'm actually
> reasonably cognizant of the laws in this country covering tort.  I'm
> also reasonably cognizant of how they play out in "real life" as
> opposed to on paper, which I suspect Lorrey is a bit shaky on.  If he
> were better informed, he'd realize that class action, as it exists
> today, provides very little benefit to the plaintiffs.

You have no clue. It certainly provides no benefit to potential
plaintiffs who never join a class action. Can any member of this list
make the claim they've ever joined a class action? I have, on my
defective Firestone Wilderness A/T tires. I received full value,
thanks. I've also read the filings for a number of other class action
suits in my work, such as the suit against JP Morgan and Barrack Gold
for their manipulation of world gold markets in the late 1990's.

Certainly some class action lawsuits against many defendants have
historically failed miserably. That is how the system works: you take
your chances. You may have higher losses than what you wind up with, if
you wind up with anything. Those are the calculations you make when you
decide whether to join a class action or pursue your own action
independently.

Mr. Neal, please list the number of times that any government has
actually distributed cash earned in fines to the actual people who
suffered the damage the government prosecutes businesses over? They
NEVER do, so your side of the equation has a score of ZERO.

> Some have
> argued that the plaintiffs in class action only serve to benefit the
> lawyers who are bringing the suits.  One of the key problems therein
> is that the lawyers have an incentive to settle, due to the burden on
> most civil court dockets, for substantial sums, but sums that are not
> sufficient to adequately recompense their clients.  The defendant
> company typically admits no wrongdoing in the settlement, the lawyers
> receive a sizable fee, and the plaintiffs receive pennies on the
> dollars of loss.  While certainly, -some!
> - class action suits are prosecuted effectively, an overwhelming
> plurality of them end in a settlement that's worthless in the sense
> that we've been discussing.
> 
> Now, lets imagine a system where we've doubled or tripled the number
> of cases of product liability. The courts would struggle to handle
> that kind of workload, thus providing even more incentive to settle
> and quickly.  The stated goal of the suit - to punish the wrongdoer
> in order to provide a disincentive for further wrongdoing - is not
> met and further, the person who suffered the loss would not receive
> recompense. 

Your failure of logic here is that you assume that the number of cases
would increase in an unregulated world. Not so, since regulations
generally protect manufacturers from liabilities, a lack of such (or of
bankruptcy and liability protections, etc) would result in businesses
being operated much more scrupulously for fear of their corporate veils
being pierced.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 19:07:39 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	OverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F33C5DA5BA60BB035A740A0B4EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20050622190739.60968.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is another school of thought: The UN Charter authorizes use of
force internationally for two main reasons:
a) if a country is attacked it can fight back, or can help another
defend itself against attack (i.e. first Gulf War, plus Saddam's hit
squad against 41)
b) a security council resolution stating dire consequences if a UN
member nation fails to obey the resolution, and the nation doesn't. In
this case, Iraq violated both the Coalition Cease Fire Agreement for
the first gulf war (which was UN authorized) AND some 18 later Security
Council resolutions. The US has been authorized to use force since the
first time Iraq violated the cease fire agreement, it is just that some
nations with profit motive didn't want to acknowledge it.

--- Brian Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I've got two schools of thought on this:
> 1) The Iraq war was illegal because all wars/invasions are illegal.
> (For 
> example, in WW2, Germany waged an illegal war on France, Poland, etc.
> Then 
> the allies waged an illegal war on Germany by invading Germany. After
> this 
> point it's all arguing over what the right motivation is and that
> leads me 
> to point #2).
> 2) Since the US Congress granted war poiwers to invade Iraq, the US 
> Executive was acting legally in invading Iraq. It is up to each
> country to 
> decide what is the appropriate motivation and vote. The US voted and
> decided 
> to go to war and to continue to support the war effort.
> 
> BAL
> 
> >From: "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
> >To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being
> Sued 
> >OverAnti-Aging Comments
> >Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:44 +1000
> >
> >Joseph Bloch wrote:
> >
> >>*sigh*
> >>
> >>Brett Paatsch wrote:
> >>
> >>>The body count in Iraq of innocent
> >>>civilians is probably around 20,000 or so based on a UN estimate
> >>>I read about in the Australian. Thats about five times the amount
> >>>of 'innocent' bystanders that were killed on September 11.
> >>
> >>
> >>That number includes (indeed, by a vast majority) those innocent
> civilians 
> >>killed by the Islamist and Baathist insurgents. 
> >>(http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)
> >>
> >>Your statement makes it appear as if the 20,000 Iraqi civilians
> were all 
> >>killed by coalition forces, when in fact the truth is that the vast
> 
> >>majority were killed by the very terrorists who we are fighting
> against. 
> >>BUT EVEN SO...
> >
> >I didn't mean to imply that 20,000 were killed by coalition forces.
> >
> >Whether the Iraq war was legal or not IS something determineable by
> >investigation between fair minded reasonable people with some
> >understanding of law.  I am not sure how many people could pass
> >through the caveats in that sentence however. Those that think they
> >can may be right in thinking so.
> >
> >I would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument
> from
> >the American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was
> legal
> >(not amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally
> savvy
> >person who knows the case) because I have seen the arguments from
> >the Australians and during the recent election in the UK more came
> out
> >about the basis of the British decision under Goldsmith. The Brits
> and
> >Blair allowed themselves to be persuaded but not by any legal
> argument
> >I have seen nor that I am aware of that any US citizen has seen or
> has
> >inquired into.
> >
> >I am 100% genuine on this. If there is any US citizen reading this
> list
> >that honestly feels qualified and can place their hand on or refer
> me
> >to a link that they personally find legally persuasive that shows
> that the
> >Iraq invasion was not illegal then I would really like to hear from
> them.
> >(Mike, with respect, I don't regard you as qualified so you would
> need
> >to have excellent sources or I'd think I'd be wasting my time).
> >
> >I know Greg Burch is a lawyer and I understand that he disagrees
> >with me but I don't know if he took a good look at the legality of
> >the Iraq war and concluded that it was legal or not. If he did I'd
> >respect him enough to take a look at his case and to be pursuaded
> >on the evidence. I can change my mind.
> >
> >But I suspect what happened is that Greg didn't look. Perhaps
> >I am being unfair to Greg and if I am I will owe him an apology
> >but I think the US legal savvy extropes were asleep or focussed
> >elsewhere when the legalities of the Iraq invasion was being
> >worked through. That did disappoint me a bit. On this list way
> before
> >the invasion took place I posted about the possibility of two
> hoaxes,
> >one being that clonaid had a clone, the other being that Iraq had
> >weapons of mass destruction - a check of the archives will bear me
> >out on this. We on this list were in a position to discuss the game
> >theoretic implications and we did not do it. I tried but there were
> >not enough takers.
> >
> >If it was an illegal invasion and the sovereignty of a UN country
> was
> >violated against a US oath, (and an Australian and a United Kingdom
> >one) then to my mind a fairly large part of the consequences of
> >resistance to illegal force sheets back to the US regardless and the
> >Bush administration regardless (and the Howard government
> regardless)
> >of whether those resisting are bathists or people otherwise
> objectionable
> >to the current power in fashion that labels their opponents
> terrorists.
> >
> >
> >>During Saddam's 20-year reign, around 750,000 Iraqi civilians were
> killed. 
> >>That's an average of 3,125 per month. Even if you lay all of the
> deaths of 
> >>civilians (mostly caused by suicide bombers, insurgent mortar
> attacks, and 
> >>drive-by-shootings by terrorists), at the coalition's doorstep
> since the 
> >>end of major combat operations (May, 2003 - June 2005), you get 769
> per 
> >>month.
> >
> >I am not even slightly defending anything that Saddam Hussein did.
> What
> >he did is beside the legal point. And the law is what must matter to
> us if
> >we are going to have a rule that is not a rule of faith or a rule of
> power.
> >
> >
> >>Hmmm.
> >>
> >>During Saddam's regime, 3,125 a month killed.
> >>
> >>After his ouster, 769 a month killed (mostly by Islamic and
> Baathist 
> >>terrorists).
> >>
> >>Of course, it would be better if no one was killed by Islamic
> terrorists. 
> >>But we don't live in a perfect world, and must perforce make
> incremental 
> >>progress. You think this is a BAD thing? Saving 2,356 lives a month
> on 
> >>average?
> >>
> >>Pardon my bluntness, but Sweet Reason, man! We're SAVING lives
> every day 
> >>that we're there! If Saddam had been left in power, some 61,000
> people 
> >>would be dead right now that are alive.
> >
> >Your missing my point Joseph. And I am not missing yours. I did take
> a 
> >quick
> >look at the site reference you provided and it looks like a fairly 
> >reasonably
> >source so far I could tell quickly. I can freely see that some good
> can 
> >come
> >of actions even illegal actions.
> >
> >I do understand what Spike means when he asks "are we not on the eve
> of
> >construction?" with respect to Iraq.
> >
> >Please don't make the mistake of miss characterising me as
> anti-American
> >(if anything I'm pro - although I'm Australian), or anti-Repulican,
> (I'm 
> >neither
> >Republican nor Democrat by sympathy), nor am I a passivist. (I
> thought
> >the invasion of Afganistan *was* legal, and I thought George H W
> Bush's
> >conduct in the first Gulf War was very creditable and moral and
> legal and
> >upright. I say these things only to try and get you to see that I am
> not
> >someone that is going to be easily classified into the nut job,
> disaffected
> >or disillusioned opponent category.
> >
> >I was and am a largely disinterested observer with the exception
> that I
> >want progress to be real and I recognize that we need to uphold some
> >rule of law, some decency for that to happen, otherwise all that
> changes
> >is which particular group dies.
> >
> >The dying can slow down, all the way across the board, when the
> critical
> >thinking picks up. The tragedy of Iraq was that it shows the level
> of 
> >thinking
> >that we (humans) were capable of through our institutions.
> >
> >We (humans) need to do a lot better. Or the whole transhumanist
> thing
> >is going to continue to look like pie in the sky.
> >
> >Sorry, I didn't mean to rant at you ;-)
> >
> >And the transhumanist thing *may* be pie in the sky anyway.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Brett Paatsch
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >extropy-chat mailing list
> >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 19:09:41 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:41 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] THE ONION issue for June 22, 2056
Message-ID: <54620-22005632219941317@M2W098.mail2web.com>


:-)


http://www.theonion.com/2056-06-22/


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 19:19:51 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:19:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: substituting the FDA was (Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	etc)
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-B674FC16E34111D9919F000393A47D36@[70.7.168.33]>
Message-ID: <20050622191951.21059.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote: 
> >
> >> The stated goal of the suit - to punish the wrongdoer
> >> in order to provide a disincentive for further wrongdoing - is not
> met
> >> and further, the person who suffered the loss would not receive
> >> recompense.
> >
> >If the system clogs.
> 
> Its -already- clogged. :)
> 

Which system are you talking about? The government funded and run
system? But of course you are, and of course you bring forth another
example of a public, taxpayer funded and government run institution
that does not operate as efficiently or effectively as a private one
would.

The government legal system is not just clogged, it is broken, and
intentionally broken by a union, a brotherhood, a cabal of would-be
priest-kings, in order to maximize their power, their income, and their
influence.

There is another system, a private system. Actually several systems
(private law doesn't like monopolies as a natural matter of course).
Arbitration systems abound in the legal world, and thousands upon
thousands of lawyers who never set foot inside a federal courtroom
spend their careers in private law. Arbitration doesn't work as well as
it COULD work, primarily because there is this corrupt, poorly run,
broken, clogged, publicly funded system that presumes to be a final
arbiter for those who cannot reach agreement in private arbitrage.

I could create a better, fairer, cheaper, and better run court system
than the US federal and state courts using little more than eBay's
software and a copy of Blackwell's Commentaries (possibly updated to a
more developed version in the Common Economic Protocol).

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Wed Jun 22 19:28:56 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:28:56 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With
	Biotech	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622164657.5564.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B9BBF8.6070609@jefallbright.net>

Mike -

Have you ever considered that sometimes your approach may be just a 
teensy bit overly inflammatory? 

- Jef

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>Now the luddites are committing murder...
>
>--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I hope nobody we know is attending Bio 2005 
>>(http://www.bio.org/events/2005/)...
>>
>>http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html
>>
>>Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City 
>>Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has
>>died 
>>after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.
>>
>>The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack
>>but 
>>homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.
>>
>>Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and
>>police 
>>that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. Some 
>>protesters were seen being taken away in handcuffs by police after
>>the 
>>incident. The fallen officer was taken away in an ambulance.
>>
>>Police department spokesman Jim Pauley said Williams was pronounced
>>dead 
>>at Hahnemann University Hospital shortly after 1 p.m.
>>
>>The street in front of the convention center is now closed to
>>traffic. 
>>Earlier, protesters chanted and pounded on drums, and blocked the 
>>entrance to the convention center.
>>
>>Several hundred protesters had started marching to the Convention
>>Center 
>>from 16th and Arch Streets before 12 p.m.
>>
>>Some groups associated with a wave of violent attacks on
>>biotechnology 
>>companies said in advance they planned demonstrations outside the 
>>Biotech convention center Tuesday.
>>_______________________________________________
>>extropy-chat mailing list
>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>    
>>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 19:38:21 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <42B9BBF8.6070609@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On the contrary, resisting arrest and/or assaulting a police officer is
a felony. Any death that occurs during the commission of that felony is
to be prosecuted as felony murder. It doesn't matter if he died of a
heart attack in the scuffle, it was the stress of the assault that
caused it the demonstrators are murderers. It's on the books.

--- Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:

> Mike -
> 
> Have you ever considered that sometimes your approach may be just a 
> teensy bit overly inflammatory? 
> 
> - Jef
> 
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> >Now the luddites are committing murder...
> >
> >--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>I hope nobody we know is attending Bio 2005 
> >>(http://www.bio.org/events/2005/)...
> >>
> >>http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html
> >>
> >>Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City 
> >>Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has
> >>died 
> >>after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.
> >>
> >>The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack
> >>but 
> >>homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.
> >>
> >>Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and
> >>police 
> >>that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. Some 
> >>protesters were seen being taken away in handcuffs by police after
> >>the 
> >>incident. The fallen officer was taken away in an ambulance.
> >>
> >>Police department spokesman Jim Pauley said Williams was pronounced
> >>dead 
> >>at Hahnemann University Hospital shortly after 1 p.m.
> >>
> >>The street in front of the convention center is now closed to
> >>traffic. 
> >>Earlier, protesters chanted and pounded on drums, and blocked the 
> >>entrance to the convention center.
> >>
> >>Several hundred protesters had started marching to the Convention
> >>Center 
> >>from 16th and Arch Streets before 12 p.m.
> >>
> >>Some groups associated with a wave of violent attacks on
> >>biotechnology 
> >>companies said in advance they planned demonstrations outside the 
> >>Biotech convention center Tuesday.
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>extropy-chat mailing list
> >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 22 19:46:48 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050622194648.88229.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> The tragedy of Iraq was that it shows the level of
> thinking
> that we (humans) were capable of through our institutions.

Would it be accurate to restate this as follows?

The problem was that the only legal course of action, was to allow
Saddam to continue his butchery.  Almost any student of history can
cite the long list of problems that can arise when we allow powerful
people, like the US President, to discard the law whenever they find it
convenient, even if only for the noblest of intentions.  Indeed, "rule
by personal whim" may well describe the root of the problems with
Saddam's government.  However, that discarding is exactly what happened
in this case, when we intervened.  The problem, therefore, is in the
precedent for abuse that this sets up, the future cost of which may
well exceed the lives that were saved by this action...and in the fact
that we could find no way to stop Saddam while still maintaining
legality.

(In fact, such a way may have arisen, had Bush stuck with the UN
negotiations just a bit longer.  As was pointed out at the time, with
Chirac threatening to veto any UN-sanctioned military action, Bush
just needed to get on record that said veto would happen no matter what
evidence Bush supplied - at the time, Chirac was not yet contesting the
evidence's veracity, so the fact that it now seems to have been
manufactured was irrelevant at the time - and then cite the UN's
charter, cite that France's veto placed the UN in abeyance of its own
charter, and thus show that the UN was itself breaking its own laws.
Bush would then have been in a position to legally invade Iraq, to
enforce the pledges it had made to the UN, even over the UN's official
protest.

Iraq would have been invaded in the end either way.  Anyone who does
not see a significant difference between this scenario and what
actually happened, is failing to understand what is actually being
objected to.)


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun 22 20:15:50 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:15:50 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Euphamism and Reality - a polite response to Mr.
	Paatsch. The Problem of Pain.
In-Reply-To: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506221654.j5MGsfR10385@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <89E882BA-02CA-46E4-8877-5AC73CFCF9E5@mac.com>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:54 AM, John-C-Wright at sff.net wrote:
> Here is why: logically, creatures either will have total control of  
> their
> environment, or else will be prey to fortune and suffer meaningless  
> accidents
> because they lack total control. Granting fallen man total control  
> of his
> environment would be tantamount to Hell. Just imagine what we would  
> do to each
> other if all matter and energy obeyed our each thought. Hence,  
> mercy grants us
> less than total control, but this leaves us open to pointless  
> accidents and
> suffering that serves no specific judicial or medicinal purpose. It  
> is a
> meaningless general suffering brought about as a logical  
> consequence of our
> fallen estate.

Yes.  That point was made well by the oldie but goodie, Forbidden  
Planet.

>
> That said, some pain, at least, is medicinal. I would still be an  
> atheist had I
> not suffered what, to outside observers, looked like a frightening  
> and mortal
> ordeal: I had a stroke. I say to outside observers because, oddly  
> enough, that
> tribulation was the happiest day of my life. I took no pain  
> killers, no drugs,
> but the joy in my heart drove all pain away. During those days, the  
> illusion,
> for me, was broken; and, even now, it has less power to do me hurt  
> or cause me
> fear than before.

I assume you are aware of the capacity of the human brain to derive  
quite impressive often mystical experiences during near death  
episodes.   I trust you base your faith on a bit more than these  
trauma induced experiences.

>
> That said, some pain, at least, is illusionary. Death I hold to be  
> an illusion:
> we don?t die. The fear and pain surrounding this great horror of  
> mortality will
> vanish like a nightmare upon waking to immortality; and an infinite  
> bliss will
> surrounded the blessed souls in the promised life to come. Compared  
> to that, our
> current pains will seem small things indeed.
>

As extropian I hold that immortality needs to be earned either by  
ourselves or introduced by the sim creator.   As I have no direct  
proof that immortality already is present it is only prudent to  
attempt to achieve ti by scientific means.

> There is a fourth and final answer which is purely mystical. I live  
> in the hope
> that, somehow, in a fashion unknown to me, the promise that all  
> tears will be
> wiped away, and all harmed healed, shall come to pass.
>

As do I but I believe it is up to sentient creatures like ourselves  
to achieve this to the degree it can be achieved.

> I do not expect this answer to be sufficient to convince a skeptic:  
> it is merely
> a brief recital of a conclusion to which no supporting proof is  
> given. I offer
> it here merely to contradict the slander against my intellectual  
> courage. I do
> not dodge questions, although, from time to time, politely, I  
> attempt to spare
> people from the torment of listening to me drone on.
>
> Q: On the contrary you will have to be on your very best behavior
> for me to feel that I am not wasting my time talking to
> you, or worse, that I might be giving a close minded
> rhetorican and professional pest the tools to spread the
> next generation of bullshit to the faithful.
>
> A: One of the more dubious pleasures of talking to Extropians is  
> that, with one
> or two shining exceptions, none of you think it odd or rude to halt  
> in the
> middle of a philosophical discussion on some topic utterly  
> unrelated to
> Christianity, to express your contempt for me, and hatred and  
> malice for my
> Church and my faith. It is done all the time, unconsciously, as  
> automatically as
> blessing someone when he sneezes.

I have not seen a lot of contempt addressed toward you personally.   
Certainly I and others have spend considerable effort and time in  
attempted dialog on and off list precisely out of respect for the  
fine mind your work makes obvious you possess.   As I have mentioned  
I believe that your experience is leading you to twist yourself into  
an intellectual pretzel in order to overlay a fairly conventional  
Christian interpretation on it.   From my own experience I know that  
is dangerous and does not do justice to the truth or yourself.

The Church has earned quite a bit of contempt although not of the  
shallow variety often seen.  Much that is rich and important is often  
simply ignored and straw man characterizations attacked.  But many in  
these parts have much experience and knowledge of the breadth of  
Christianity and other religions behind their surface words also.  I  
for one never ever criticize it automatically or gratuitously.

Your Church?  You take on a lot when you claim that complex and  
deeply troubled institution as yours.  You also err if you take  
criticism of the Church or of your beliefs as an attack on your person.

>
> The phenomena is a peculiar one and merits study. Myself, I suspect  
> the cause is
> supernatural rather than psychological or philosophical.

This is sheer rot of the brain.  Human characteristics plus actual  
wrongs of the Church and religious thinking generally are quite  
sufficient to explain it without invoking supernatural causes.  For  
shame!  You have much too fine a brain to sink to such.

>
>
> I don?t mind. We get points for it, you know. ?Blessed are you when  
> men revile
> you, and persecute you, and speak all manner of evil against you  
> falsely because
> of me.?
>

Oh Puh-leze.   You are not blessed when you are reviled for your  
actual errors.  Do you really think that verse even refers to being  
spoke badly of for adhering to a bunch of dogma that did not exist at  
the time the words were uttered?  To you believe that this mere dogma  
created by men often in bitter and all too human conflict is even  
what was being referred to?


> Q: If you believe in God you might do well to be careful
> of the prohibitions and consequence of bearing false
> witness.
>
> A: Throat-clearing.
>

And you claiming supernatural significance isn't?

> Q: (responding to ?Please note that no one in this discussion  
> misunderstood to
> which unborn human entity my word referred.?) You are guessing that  
> no one
> misunderstood it. Whether readers did or not you cannot know.
>
> A: Excuse me, but is your argument based on the idea that when I  
> used the word
> ?child? some people reading my words thought I was referring not to  
> the child in
> the womb in the hypothetical, but to some other, unrelated child,  
> such as a
> cousin or something?
>
> That's silly.
>

Of course it is.  So why did you create such a silly interpretation?
>

> Q: What is clear is that you persisted with a term that others  
> found objectionable.
>
> A: Certainly. Logic said that their objections were invalid, merely  
> emotional,
> unworthy of serious consideration.
>

You are far too legalistic to actually understand and respond to what  
was meant in my opinion.  In my opinion you are too legalistic to  
grasp the spirit rather than the letter of spiritual notions also.   
At least that is my impression to date.

> I am slightly embarrassed that honor requires me to continue in  
> this so-called
> discussion, where the partisans of Political Correctness have  
> actually achieved
> their goal of derailing the original conversation (which was about  
> moral
> relativity; abortion was brought up only as a tangential example.)
>

My dear sir, it is you yourself who ran the original discussion well  
off the rails in this direction and are still not done mucking about  
in this particular swamp.

> The economics of the situation reward such behavior: it is like  
> kicking over a
> chessboard when in check. If the partisans of Political Correctness  
> can raise
> such a stink over non-meritorious arguments, men of less patience  
> and fortitude
> than myself will simply accede to their language-demeaning  
> practices, it not
> being worth their time to contest the imposition. Eventually, all  
> men will adopt
> Newspeak, and rational criticism of Big Brother will become  
> grammatically
> impossible (which is the sole point of Newspeak, after all).
>

Further into the weeds you go.  Excuse me if I do not have the  
patience to come in after you.

- samantha


From giogavir at yahoo.it  Wed Jun 22 20:42:47 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:42:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050622194648.88229.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050622204248.50405.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

when the US invaded Panama to get hold of Noriega,
nobody said a word
With Saddam is the same case with the only difference
that the situation  was badly mismanaged and went out
of control
In neither cases the US had any right to intervene but
they did.
This time something went wrong and the Us don't know
how to leave and save face, leaving the existing
government to face another fall of saigon event

--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> ha scritto: 

> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> > The tragedy of Iraq was that it shows the level of
> > thinking
> > that we (humans) were capable of through our
> institutions.
> 
> Would it be accurate to restate this as follows?
> 
> The problem was that the only legal course of
> action, was to allow
> Saddam to continue his butchery.  Almost any student
> of history can
> cite the long list of problems that can arise when
> we allow powerful
> people, like the US President, to discard the law
> whenever they find it
> convenient, even if only for the noblest of
> intentions.  Indeed, "rule
> by personal whim" may well describe the root of the
> problems with
> Saddam's government.  However, that discarding is
> exactly what happened
> in this case, when we intervened.  The problem,
> therefore, is in the
> precedent for abuse that this sets up, the future
> cost of which may
> well exceed the lives that were saved by this
> action...and in the fact
> that we could find no way to stop Saddam while still
> maintaining
> legality.
> 
> (In fact, such a way may have arisen, had Bush stuck
> with the UN
> negotiations just a bit longer.  As was pointed out
> at the time, with
> Chirac threatening to veto any UN-sanctioned
> military action, Bush
> just needed to get on record that said veto would
> happen no matter what
> evidence Bush supplied - at the time, Chirac was not
> yet contesting the
> evidence's veracity, so the fact that it now seems
> to have been
> manufactured was irrelevant at the time - and then
> cite the UN's
> charter, cite that France's veto placed the UN in
> abeyance of its own
> charter, and thus show that the UN was itself
> breaking its own laws.
> Bush would then have been in a position to legally
> invade Iraq, to
> enforce the pledges it had made to the UN, even over
> the UN's official
> protest.
> 
> Iraq would have been invaded in the end either way. 
> Anyone who does
> not see a significant difference between this
> scenario and what
> actually happened, is failing to understand what is
> actually being
> objected to.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB 
http://mail.yahoo.it


From jef at jefallbright.net  Wed Jun 22 20:44:19 2005
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:44:19 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42B9CDA3.9060703@jefallbright.net>

It's one thing to be technically correct, and over the last 10 years or 
so I've seen that you're strong in marshalling technical detail to 
support your points.

It's another thing to be clear about one's principles and to defend them 
vigorously, and I've seen this as another of your consistent strengths.

It's another thing altogether to be clear about one's principles, 
technically capable, AND be able to build effective cooperation in 
support of one's goals within a diverse population of varying 
backgrounds and experiences.  That is where I think we extropians and/or 
transhumanists are typically quite weak.

While my initial comment was directed toward you, Mike and the example 
of your statement that "the Luddites are committing murder", my concern 
is much more general in the sense of how ineffective we are at applying 
leading edge thinking to issues of importance to us.

We are typically very good at identifying and shooting down the flaws in 
opposing viewpoints, but we are not as highly skilled at conveying 
understanding of another's point of view and then building a larger 
structure of thought within which differing viewpoints can grow towards 
common goals.

We apply prejudicial labels, such as Luddite, to groups who would 
strongly disavow such a label.  The label serves to separate us further, 
rather than to build bridges toward understanding, or even imply that 
that we would like to do so.

Some of us are fervently anti-religion, rather than working 
cooperatively with the fact that that we are immersed in an environment 
of many belief systems, all of which have served some local purpose (or 
they wouldn't exist) and none of which (our own included) are perfectly 
rational.

There is power in the political technique of belittling and downgrading 
one's opponents, but in the bigger picture the power of truth tends to 
be even more effective, and the bigger picture "truth" contains all the 
opponent parts.

- Jef
http://www.jefallbright.net


Mike Lorrey wrote:

>On the contrary, resisting arrest and/or assaulting a police officer is
>a felony. Any death that occurs during the commission of that felony is
>to be prosecuted as felony murder. It doesn't matter if he died of a
>heart attack in the scuffle, it was the stress of the assault that
>caused it the demonstrators are murderers. It's on the books.
>
>--- Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mike -
>>
>>Have you ever considered that sometimes your approach may be just a 
>>teensy bit overly inflammatory? 
>>
>>- Jef
>>
>>Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Now the luddites are committing murder...
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>http://www.nbc10.com/news/4632819/detail.html
>>>>
>>>>Violence between biotech protesters and police in Center City 
>>>>Philadelphia has turned tragic. A Philadelphia police officer has
>>>>died after a scuffle in Center City on Tuesday.
>>>>
>>>>The officer, Paris Williams, 52, may have died from a heart attack
>>>>but homicide is also investigating the case. He is a 19-year veteran.
>>>>
>>>>Williams collapsed near the end of a brawl between protesters and
>>>>police that lasted for several minutes near 12th and Arch Streets. 
>>>>



From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 22 20:57:00 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:57:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <948b11e05062213437fb9386c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615231244.037c38c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>	
	<42B8C8E2.7060901@neopax.com>
	<948b11e05062213437fb9386c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42B9D09C.1040605@neopax.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> What says the "4D wordline" is infinitely extended in the  time 
> dimension?
>
>  
>
It doesn't have to be, any more than my height has to be infinitely 
extended.
Although in the MWI of QM there will be worldlines infinitely extended.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org


> On 6/21/05, Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>  
>
>> Keith Henson wrote:
>>
>>   
>>
>>> At 12:50 PM 14/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>> Some of you know that I have been caregiver to my long term friend
>>>> and roommate Michael who was terminally ill.  This morning he died.
>>>>       
>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>>     
>>>
>>>> It was  like a switch simply turned off.
>>>>       
>>>
>>> In my view humans have spirits, that's what we interact with.  So do
>>> dogs and cats.  So do computers running an OS on them.  Where does the
>>> spirit of the OS go when you turn off the power?  It is just *gone.*
>>>
>>>     
>>
>> A spirit, or soul, is an information construct.
>> As for where it goes, it need not go anywhere since it has at least a 4D
>> worldline (or tree if you're into MWI of QM).
>>
>> -- 
>> Dirk
>>
>> The Consensus:-
>> The political party for the new millenium
>> http://www.theconsensus.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/24 - Release Date: 
>> 21/06/2005
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>>   
>
>
>
>  
>




-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 21/06/2005



From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 20:59:04 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:04 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <42B9CDA3.9060703@jefallbright.net>
References: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<42B9CDA3.9060703@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05062213596ecd6ec5@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/05, Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
> There is power in the political technique of belittling and downgrading
> one's opponents, but in the bigger picture the power of truth tends to
> be even more effective, and the bigger picture "truth" contains all the
> opponent parts.

Very well put!

I'm certainly not the world's most tactful person, but I think it's
generally true that for every one opponent who's just plain bad, there
are ten who merely have a different perspective; and it's both
feasible and desirable to find some common ground with the ten if not
the one.

- Russell


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 22 21:13:52 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:13:52 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] META:  Over posting
Message-ID: <283500-220056322211352497@M2W042.mail2web.com>


"Given the number of subscribers to the Extropy-Chat mailing list, we
strongly recommend that you restrain yourself to a MAXIMUM of eight posts
per day. Those who exceed the eight posts per day limit will receive a
private warning. Repeat offenders will be subject to other measures such as
temporary or permanent bans from the list."


Please make sure that you are not over posting.

Thanks,
Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
Extropy Institute, President
http://www.extropy.org



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 21:40:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050622204248.50405.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050622214053.81579.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- giorgio gaviraghi <giogavir at yahoo.it> wrote:

> when the US invaded Panama to get hold of Noriega,
> nobody said a word
> With Saddam is the same case with the only difference
> that the situation  was badly mismanaged and went out
> of control
> In neither cases the US had any right to intervene but
> they did.

This is also wrong, incorrect, not in accordance with the facts. There
had a been an election. Noriega lost. Noriega refused to admit defeat,
had his forces beat up and imprisone those who protested (and shot a US
military officer). The winner fled the country and requested our
assistance in restoring the rightfully elected government to power.
Under the Organization of American States Charter, the US government
was bound to do so for a co-signatory government. These are the facts.
I know from personal experience. To claim otherwise is to perpetrate a
fraud for the sake of anti-US propaganda.

Stop it.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 22 21:46:09 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Death
In-Reply-To: <42B9D09C.1040605@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050622214609.30310.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 
> > What says the "4D wordline" is infinitely extended
> in the  time 
> > dimension?
> >

If the OS become light, then the lightcone is
infinitely extended in both the space and time
dimensions. And from the point of view of the photons,
they are at all times instantaneously everywhere along
their path of travel. Kind of like omnipresence in one dimension.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From gingell at gnat.com  Wed Jun 22 21:46:47 2005
From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:46:47 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Police Officer Dies After Brawl With Biotech
	Protesters
In-Reply-To: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622193821.6744.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <64BAEEDB-E7AD-44D3-ADDB-5F518B782BF6@gnat.com>

On Jun 22, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> On the contrary, resisting arrest and/or assaulting a police  
> officer is
> a felony. Any death that occurs during the commission of that  
> felony is
> to be prosecuted as felony murder. It doesn't matter if he died of a
> heart attack in the scuffle, it was the stress of the assault that
> caused it the demonstrators are murderers. It's on the books.

The felony murder rule is more restrictive than that. The  
Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, CRIMES AND OFFENSES (TITLE 18)  
defines "Perpetration of a felony" for purposes of the felony murder  
rule as "The act of the defendant in engaging in or being an  
accomplice in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, or flight  
after committing, or attempting to commit robbery, rape, or deviate  
sexual intercourse by force or threat of force, arson, burglary or  
kidnapping." So unless the guy was trying to rob, rape, kidnap, or  
burn down the cop for the insurance, the felony murder rule isn't  
relevant.

If you think about it, it's pretty clear you want to narrow the kind  
of acts you want to make applicable for felony murder prosecution.  
Say I'm driving to the post-office to drop off a fraudulent tax  
return and somebody jumps in front of my car: Is there any real  
purpose served by prosecuting this as a second degree homicide rather  
than just as felony mail fraud? Assaulting a police officer or  
violently resisting arrest is a serious matter, if indeed that's what  
happened, but there's really no point is locking up some dope for an  
extra twenty years just because the guy had a bad heart.

Matt




From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun 22 22:38:16 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:38:16 +0100
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050622214053.81579.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622204248.50405.qmail@web26209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<20050622214053.81579.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e050622153821b14e60@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> This is also wrong, incorrect, not in accordance with the facts. There
> had a been an election. Noriega lost. Noriega refused to admit defeat,
> had his forces beat up and imprisone those who protested (and shot a US
> military officer). The winner fled the country and requested our
> assistance in restoring the rightfully elected government to power.
> Under the Organization of American States Charter, the US government
> was bound to do so for a co-signatory government. These are the facts.
> I know from personal experience. To claim otherwise is to perpetrate a
> fraud for the sake of anti-US propaganda.
> 
> Stop it.
> 

But, but, but,.... Mike, you can't just selectively quote the facts
you happen to like, and omit other facts that tell a different story.
The US was certainly not squeaky clean in the Noriega affair.

Noriega was in the pay of, and trained by, the CIA, possibly from as
early as 1960 until 1988. Then he fell out with his US paymasters. The
details vary, depending on whose version you like best. There was a
standoff for about six months with lots of provocations and incidents
on both sides, while the US built up their forces in the Panama bases.
When the marine was killed, this was used to justify an invasion in
December 1989 to capture and extradite Noriega.

>From Wikipedia:
On December 22 the Organization of American States passed a resolution
deploring the invasion and calling for withdrawal of U.S. troops. A
similar resolution was passed on December 29 by the United Nations
General Assembly.

After the invasion, governments throughout Latin America ? including
the government of Chile under Augusto Pinochet, which was generally
supportive of United States policies ? issued statements condemning
the invasion and calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops.
One of the reasons Bush gave for the invasion, the reestablishment of
democracy in Panama, was widely viewed with suspicion, since the
United States was perceived throughout Latin America as one of the
primary destabilizers of other democratically elected governments in
the region. In the recent past, the United States had shown little
concern for well-publicized human rights violations in other Latin
American countries with right-wing governments such as Chile,
Argentina, Uruguay and El Salvador and was also believed to have
supported insurgencies in several countries. Moreover Noriega was
considered to be a former puppet of the United States who had
cooperated with American efforts to destabilize the Sandinista regime
in Nicaragua. It is generally believed that during that time the
United States did little to curtail his involvement in drug
trafficking.

BillK


From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Jun 23 01:31:19 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:31:19 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050622190038.31843.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-800B3354E38611D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/22/05 12:00) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>You have no clue. It certainly provides no benefit to potential
>plaintiffs who never join a class action. Can any member of this list
>make the claim they've ever joined a class action? I have, on my
>defective Firestone Wilderness A/T tires. I received full value,
>thanks. I've also read the filings for a number of other class action
>suits in my work, such as the suit against JP Morgan and Barrack Gold
>for their manipulation of world gold markets in the late 1990's.

Yes, Mike, I have joined in class actions.  And where on earth did I say that it provided benefits to people who didn't join? Maybe you should learn to read before telling me to get a clue, eh?


>
>Certainly some class action lawsuits against many defendants have
>historically failed miserably. That is how the system works: you take
>your chances. You may have higher losses than what you wind up with, if
>you wind up with anything. Those are the calculations you make when you
>decide whether to join a class action or pursue your own action
>independently.

And pursuing independently is, of course, even riskier since the person you're up against can afford more lawyers than you can.


>
>Mr. Neal, please list the number of times that any government has
>actually distributed cash earned in fines to the actual people who
>suffered the damage the government prosecutes businesses over? They
>NEVER do, so your side of the equation has a score of ZERO.

Its Dr. Neal.  And your failure in logic is that you assume that it has to actually hurt people for the government to have stopped it. That's the beauty of things like the FDA and the USDA. You try to nip the problem in the bud, rather than waiting for bad stuff to happen first.

Have you ever read "The Jungle?"


>Your failure of logic here is that you assume that the number of cases
>would increase in an unregulated world. Not so, since regulations
>generally protect manufacturers from liabilities, a lack of such (or of
>bankruptcy and liability protections, etc) would result in businesses
>being operated much more scrupulously for fear of their corporate veils
>being pierced.

The FDA does not absolve pharma companies of any liability in re their products.  Take any of the recent painkillers that have been pulled from the market as an example. FDA approval of the drug does not prevent suits for damages incurred.  Once again, a bit of reality with your idealism would be helpful....


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Jun 23 01:32:03 2005
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:32:03 -0400
Subject: substituting the FDA was (Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	etc)
In-Reply-To: <20050622191951.21059.qmail@web30714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010500-1038-9A7C1550E38611D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (6/22/05 12:19) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>I could create a better, fairer, cheaper, and better run court system
>than the US federal and state courts using little more than eBay's
>software and a copy of Blackwell's Commentaries (possibly updated to a
>more developed version in the Common Economic Protocol).


Then do it and quit spanking off about it.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 23 01:39:37 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:39:37 -0400
Subject: substituting the FDA was (Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being
	Sued	etc)
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-9A7C1550E38611D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
References: <r02010500-1038-9A7C1550E38611D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <42BA12D9.6030503@humanenhancement.com>

Oh, don't encourage him...

Joseph

Brent Neal wrote:

> (6/22/05 12:19) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I could create a better, fairer, cheaper, and better run court system
>>than the US federal and state courts using little more than eBay's
>>software and a copy of Blackwell's Commentaries (possibly updated to a
>>more developed version in the Common Economic Protocol).
>>    
>>
>
>
>Then do it and quit spanking off about it.
>
>B
>  
>


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Jun 23 01:46:17 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:46:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
Message-ID: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

"A survey examining religion in medicine found that most U.S. doctors 
believe in God and an afterlife - a surprising degree of spirituality in a 
science-based field, researchers say.":

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=1500&slug=Doctors%20and%20God

Having known several physicians in my life has led me to the conclusion that 
many physicians (and nurses, too - from what my daughter, an R.N., has told 
me) are generally not deep thinkers, but more like technicians.  Please 
observe I said "many" - certainly not all.

I can't help it - I've tried to explain this to myself in many ways, but I 
still find this situation somewhat depressing.

Olga 




From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br  Thu Jun 23 01:59:02 2005
From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:59:02 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <200506222259.02773.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>


This correlation is also true for any more technical and a more thinking 
profession. 


the big problem of evolution is that when it has integrated the naturalistic, 
phisical and social modules of our mind in an integrated modular 
intelligence, this has not only made us more likely to think about how the 
world works (Science) and interesting ways to deal with objects (art) but 
also gave us the bias to beleive in meanings more that we beleive in the 
things they mean.

When you want to discuss what is history, god, os psychoanalisys, it feels 
like the word is a thing itself. Entities appear, religions, and then, 
finally, suffering. 


May the end of the old mind be with you. 

Diego Caleiro





Em Quarta 22 Junho 2005 22:46, Olga Bourlin escreveu:
> "A survey examining religion in medicine found that most U.S. doctors
> believe in God and an afterlife - a surprising degree of spirituality in a
> science-based field, researchers say.":
>
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=1500&sl
>ug=Doctors%20and%20God
>
> Having known several physicians in my life has led me to the conclusion
> that many physicians (and nurses, too - from what my daughter, an R.N., has
> told me) are generally not deep thinkers, but more like technicians. 
> Please observe I said "many" - certainly not all.
>
> I can't help it - I've tried to explain this to myself in many ways, but I
> still find this situation somewhat depressing.
>
> Olga
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 01:58:11 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:58:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <200506222259.02773.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<200506222259.02773.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05062218583c5f33f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Diego Caleiro <diegocaleiro at terra.com.br> wrote:
> 
> May the end of the old mind be with you.

Be careful what you wish for.

- Russell


From sentience at pobox.com  Thu Jun 23 02:35:04 2005
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:35:04 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <42BA1FD8.7000506@pobox.com>

Olga Bourlin wrote:
> "A survey examining religion in medicine found that most U.S. doctors 
> believe in God and an afterlife - a surprising degree of spirituality in 
> a science-based field, researchers say.":
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=1500&slug=Doctors%20and%20God 
> 
> Having known several physicians in my life has led me to the conclusion 
> that many physicians (and nurses, too - from what my daughter, an R.N., 
> has told me) are generally not deep thinkers, but more like 
> technicians.  Please observe I said "many" - certainly not all.
> 
> I can't help it - I've tried to explain this to myself in many ways, but 
> I still find this situation somewhat depressing.

I once had a dentist whom I sent to my Bayes page.  He reported that he tried 
to read it and just couldn't understand it.  If you've read my Bayes page, you 
know that means he couldn't readily handle algebra.

My dentist presumably had considerably above average IQ.  Dental school isn't 
for idiots.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 02:42:36 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:42:36 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <42BA1FD8.7000506@pobox.com>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<42BA1FD8.7000506@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e050622194227501c9f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky <sentience at pobox.com> wrote:
> I once had a dentist whom I sent to my Bayes page.  He reported that he tried
> to read it and just couldn't understand it.  If you've read my Bayes page, you
> know that means he couldn't readily handle algebra.

I have, but I don't think that's what it means.

I think what he meant was: "Out of politeness to a customer, I took a
glance at your page, hoping it would contain some fluff I could make
lightly joking comment on, thereby oiling the wheels of social
interaction. Crap, there's a lot of math there - sure, I can grok that
if I try, but honestly, I have more than enough hard intellectual work
to do as it stands; you're not paying me enough to take flashbacks to
algebra class - why do you think I play golf for entertainment? It's
because it gives my brain a _rest_. Erg - you might take offense at
that; I don't want to insult a customer. Hmm, it's socially acceptable
to plead ignorance. I'll just say I didn't understand it, I'll put it
lightly and jokingly, that'll get me by."

- Russell


From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 02:53:05 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Iraq and legality again 
In-Reply-To: <20050622214053.81579.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623025305.18647.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What worries me isn't so much the minor issue of the legality of the war, but, rather, the financial cost (putting aside for brevity's sake here the human cost).
 Can we afford to pay for the Iraq and other wars? Yes. Can we pay for the wars (we can be sure the coming decades will see America & its allies involved in other theaters of wars besides the ones it now is engaged in) and ensure domestic tranquility while social programs are eroded, as almost certainly the programs will be? Economists are not magicians.
 
I don't accept all the self-pitying talk concerning America being as a modern day Roman Empire, with illegal immigrant barbarians invading from the south. Nevertheless, could America spend itself to a bad end as the Soviets did in 1991?

		
---------------------------------
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 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br  Thu Jun 23 03:01:24 2005
From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:01:24 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e05062218583c5f33f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<200506222259.02773.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
	<8d71341e05062218583c5f33f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200506230001.24561.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>


I beleive I would be right to metaforize our mind developed by evolution of 
old mind, meaning a designed mind is a better one. Therefore, I think the end 
of a mind like ours, with tendency to power, war, exceding vanity etc... 
would be a great thing to disapear. Isn't that one of the transhuman goals?






Em Quarta 22 Junho 2005 22:58, Russell Wallace escreveu:
> On 6/23/05, Diego Caleiro <diegocaleiro at terra.com.br> wrote:
> > May the end of the old mind be with you.
>
> Be careful what you wish for.
>
> - Russell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Jun 23 02:57:00 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:57:00 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<42BA1FD8.7000506@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c5779f$3aaeb240$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" <sentience at pobox.com>

> My dentist presumably had considerably above average IQ.  Dental school 
> isn't for idiots.

Maybe what we're talking about here isn't idiots v. the-smarties, but more 
like ... sheep v. goats.

And maybe hypocrisy knows no I.Q. (lol!):

http://www.mrlizard.com/disbelief.html

Olga 




From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 03:01:28 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:01:28 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <200506230001.24561.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<200506222259.02773.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
	<8d71341e05062218583c5f33f@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506230001.24561.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
Message-ID: <8d71341e0506222001b29f8dc@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Diego Caleiro <diegocaleiro at terra.com.br> wrote:
>
> I beleive I would be right to metaforize our mind developed by evolution of
> old mind, meaning a designed mind is a better one. Therefore, I think the end
> of a mind like ours, with tendency to power, war, exceding vanity etc...
> would be a great thing to disapear.

Would you advocate blowing up the planet, then? Amounts to the same
thing: eliminate sentient life. (Actually, blowing up the planet would
be better; a nonsentient UFAI would gobble everything in .X of our
light cone, possibly eliminating chances for someone else to do
better. No, your "designed mind" isn't going to be sentient. If you
think otherwise, by all means explain how you propose to design a
sentient mind.)

> Isn't that one of the transhuman goals?

*shrug* What's a transhuman? It's not one of my goals, to put it mildly.

- Russell


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Jun 23 03:06:04 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:06:04 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] What is Spirituality?
Message-ID: <011b01c577a0$7eaa2640$6600a8c0@brainiac>

That article I posted about physicians and "god" talks about "spirituality." 
I have no idea what that is.

I was thinking of writing something about that article, but am stuck:
What is spirituality?

Any insight (positive or negative) would be appreciated.  8-]

Thanks,
Olga 




From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br  Thu Jun 23 03:15:43 2005
From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:15:43 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0506222001b29f8dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<200506230001.24561.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
	<8d71341e0506222001b29f8dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200506230015.43645.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>




Supose that 

1 You can develop sentient minds
2 You can change characteristics of your own mind
3 You can control some characteristics of this sentient mind to be "better" 
than ours, more altruistic, more visual accuracy etc...


Wouldn't you change yourself to something like that, and wouldn't you want 
that gradually people feel like becoming more intelligent, altruists, etc...

eventually, everybody would be this new kind of being, and therefore, our sort 
of mind, the old mind, would be gone. 

That is what i mean, not eliminating sentient life. 

diego Caleiro (Log At)







Em Quinta 23 Junho 2005 00:01, Russell Wallace escreveu:
> On 6/23/05, Diego Caleiro <diegocaleiro at terra.com.br> wrote:
> > I beleive I would be right to metaforize our mind developed by evolution
> > of old mind, meaning a designed mind is a better one. Therefore, I think
> > the end of a mind like ours, with tendency to power, war, exceding vanity
> > etc... would be a great thing to disapear.
>
> Would you advocate blowing up the planet, then? Amounts to the same
> thing: eliminate sentient life. (Actually, blowing up the planet would
> be better; a nonsentient UFAI would gobble everything in .X of our
> light cone, possibly eliminating chances for someone else to do
> better. No, your "designed mind" isn't going to be sentient. If you
> think otherwise, by all means explain how you propose to design a
> sentient mind.)
>
> > Isn't that one of the transhuman goals?
>
> *shrug* What's a transhuman? It's not one of my goals, to put it mildly.
>
> - Russell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From dirk at neopax.com  Thu Jun 23 03:19:00 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:19:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] What is Spirituality?
In-Reply-To: <011b01c577a0$7eaa2640$6600a8c0@brainiac>
References: <011b01c577a0$7eaa2640$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <42BA2A24.5030608@neopax.com>

Olga Bourlin wrote:

> That article I posted about physicians and "god" talks about 
> "spirituality." I have no idea what that is.
>
> I was thinking of writing something about that article, but am stuck:
> What is spirituality?
>
> Any insight (positive or negative) would be appreciated.  8-]
>
An appreciation of the information content of an object or person as 
defining their unique and innate properties.
http://www.neopax.com/asatru/spirit/index.html

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 03:19:29 2005
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:19:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <200506230015.43645.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
References: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<200506230001.24561.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
	<8d71341e0506222001b29f8dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506230015.43645.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br>
Message-ID: <8d71341e05062220193385b423@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Diego Caleiro <diegocaleiro at terra.com.br> wrote:
> Supose that
> 
> 1 You can develop sentient minds
> 2 You can change characteristics of your own mind
> 3 You can control some characteristics of this sentient mind to be "better"
> than ours, more altruistic, more visual accuracy etc...

You presumably also mean:

4 You can do all this while assuring that the whole process doesn't
result in a trajectory that departs from the small part of the space
of intelligences that contains sentience.

So what it amounts to is:

Suppose that I am God.

Well, if I were God, I'd probably do a lot of things. I'm not, nor are
you, nor is any man. If you believe there is a God, however, by all
means feel free to ask Him to do the things you outline. I would
strongly recommend you do _not_ take such upon yourself, nor encourage
any man to do so.

- Russell


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Jun 23 03:27:11 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:27:11 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] What is Spirituality?
References: <011b01c577a0$7eaa2640$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<42BA2A24.5030608@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <014301c577a3$71e16a60$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "Dirk Bruere" <dirk at neopax.com>
> An appreciation of the information content of an object or person as 
> defining their unique and innate properties.
> http://www.neopax.com/asatru/spirit/index.html
> 
Aiiiiiii, thanks loads.

Got an aspirin?

Olga



From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Jun 23 06:41:57 2005
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:41:57 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Ye Shall Reap as Ye Have Cloned
Message-ID: <001201c577be$a77f0c20$6600a8c0@brainiac>

"Meat and milk from cloned farm animals is about to be declared safe for 
human consumption by the US Food and Drug Administration, one of the world's 
most powerful regulatory bodies."

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/37766fa4-e357-11d9-b6f0-00000e2511c8.html






From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun 23 06:52:28 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Ye Shall Reap as Ye Have Cloned
In-Reply-To: <001201c577be$a77f0c20$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050623065228.64393.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:
> "Meat and milk from cloned farm animals is about to be declared safe
> for 
> human consumption by the US Food and Drug Administration, one of the
> world's 
> most powerful regulatory bodies."
> 
> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/37766fa4-e357-11d9-b6f0-00000e2511c8.html

Yay!  Now bring on the tissue support machinery, so we can just clone
meat and udder cells directly, and replace the rest of the creature
with superior artificial systems.  (You want cows and pigs as pets?  No
problem.  You want to protest about their inhumane treatment?  Not if
they aren't being used for food anymore...)

> "The FDA would want the ethics to go away but there are people with
> legitimate concerns about the impact of this technology," [a senior
> regulatory scientist at the FDA] said.

Translation: enough of those in power at the FDA are tired of hearing
"but it's unethical!" over and over again, when the specifics of that
claim are increasingly divorced from reality (in their opinion).


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 08:39:21 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <002101c57795$59dc00f0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20050623083921.53496.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> "A survey examining religion in medicine found that
> most U.S. doctors 
> believe in God and an afterlife - a surprising
> degree of spirituality in a 
> science-based field, researchers say.":
> I can't help it - I've tried to explain this to
> myself in many ways, but I 
> still find this situation somewhat depressing.

Think of it this way. How can a physician play God
with your life if he doesn't believe in God? ;)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 11:41:12 2005
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Henrik_=D6hrstr=F6m?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:41:12 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <20050623083921.53496.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DHEDKDAFOIKEGEPMAFCEMEMADCAA.henrik.ohrstrom@gmail.com>

You won't ever do a proper job if you belive that someone else is going to
cover your mistakes.
I prefere someone who do not belive that a dead patient (might be me) have
gone to a better place.
Nonbelivers make better Gods, when did you last get to see the design specs
for any God?
Sloppy work, no quality control.

 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMD d- s+: a C++ UL P L+ E- W+@ N+ o K+ w O- M V- PS++ PE+ Y++ PGP++ !t !5
X- R+ tv- b+++ DI++ D+ G e+++ h---- r+++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


>
> Think of it this way. How can a physician play God
> with your life if he doesn't believe in God? ;)
>
>
> The Avantguardian
> is
> Stuart LaForge
> alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
> "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they
> haven't attempted to contact us."
> -Bill Watterson
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 14:45:15 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Iraq war legal? 
Message-ID: <20050623144515.63957.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Of course the war isn't legal but since international law is fuzzy, legality isn't the main issue, especially since 27 months have elapsed since Iraq was invaded. I don't know if the war is justified, however its opponents aren't convincing enough in their arguments of how America and the allies ought to cut their losses and exit. And besides, just as antiwar activists don't want anything to do with the Iraq war, some of us do not want anything to do with protesting that war.

		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 15:45:38 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <r02010500-1038-800B3354E38611D9919F000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20050623154538.67092.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:

>  (6/22/05 12:00) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >You have no clue. It certainly provides no benefit to potential
> >plaintiffs who never join a class action. Can any member of this
> list
> >make the claim they've ever joined a class action? I have, on my
> >defective Firestone Wilderness A/T tires. I received full value,
> >thanks. I've also read the filings for a number of other class
> action
> >suits in my work, such as the suit against JP Morgan and Barrack
> Gold
> >for their manipulation of world gold markets in the late 1990's.
> 
> Yes, Mike, I have joined in class actions.  And where on earth did I
> say that it provided benefits to people who didn't join? Maybe you
> should learn to read before telling me to get a clue, eh?

You seemed to imply that lots of people make little or nothing on class
actions. In my experience, the only people who stay shafted are those
who don't participate.
> 
> 
> >
> >Certainly some class action lawsuits against many defendants have
> >historically failed miserably. That is how the system works: you
> take
> >your chances. You may have higher losses than what you wind up with,
> if
> >you wind up with anything. Those are the calculations you make when
> you
> >decide whether to join a class action or pursue your own action
> >independently.
> 
> And pursuing independently is, of course, even riskier since the
> person you're up against can afford more lawyers than you can.

Not if every shafted customer pursues legal action. The consumer has
the advantage of numbers, such that if a corporation had 100,000
customers of defective products upon which they earned, say, $10.00,
and even just 10% of those 100,000 customers filed lawsuits against the
firm, the firm would rack up thousands of dollars in expenses for each
lawsuit, far in excess of profits earned, and would quickly verge on
bankruptcy. In such a case, it would be to the benefit of the defective
manufacturer if all plaintiffs were required to engage in a class
action.

> >
> >Mr. Neal, please list the number of times that any government has
> >actually distributed cash earned in fines to the actual people who
> >suffered the damage the government prosecutes businesses over? They
> >NEVER do, so your side of the equation has a score of ZERO.
> 
> Its Dr. Neal.  And your failure in logic is that you assume that it
> has to actually hurt people for the government to have stopped it.
> That's the beauty of things like the FDA and the USDA. You try to nip
> the problem in the bud, rather than waiting for bad stuff to happen
> first.

The basis of law for centuries has always been that there must be a
victim for a crime to have been committed. The phrase "no harm, no
foul" is a legal maxim. You also evaded the question: When, EVER, has
ANY government actually distributed the fines it imposes against makers
of defective products, to the victims of those defective products?
NEVER is the proper answer.

> 
> Have you ever read "The Jungle?"

Yes, I have, and I am also aware that most of its claims were false,
propaganda produced by Sinclair Lewis and his fabian socialist cohorts
for political purposes, a fact which is well documented in the
historical literature.
 
> >Your failure of logic here is that you assume that the number of
> cases
> >would increase in an unregulated world. Not so, since regulations
> >generally protect manufacturers from liabilities, a lack of such (or
> of
> >bankruptcy and liability protections, etc) would result in
> businesses
> >being operated much more scrupulously for fear of their corporate
> veils
> >being pierced.
> 
> The FDA does not absolve pharma companies of any liability in re
> their products.  Take any of the recent painkillers that have been
> pulled from the market as an example. FDA approval of the drug does
> not prevent suits for damages incurred.  Once again, a bit of reality
> with your idealism would be helpful....
> 

That isn't the point being made. The point is that there are liability
protections for investors enforced by government which protect them
against the fact that they elected directors of their corporation who
hired criminal management (if the directors themselves were not also
complicit).

The reforms of recent years only hold executives responsible for the
claims made in reports made to investors and to regulators. This will
most certainly improve things, but not completely.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 15:51:44 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:51:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Iraq and legality again 
In-Reply-To: <20050623025305.18647.qmail@web33701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623155144.16339.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> What worries me isn't so much the minor issue of the legality of the
> war, but, rather, the financial cost (putting aside for brevity's
> sake here the human cost).
>  Can we afford to pay for the Iraq and other wars? Yes. Can we pay
> for the wars (we can be sure the coming decades will see America &
> its allies involved in other theaters of wars besides the ones it now
> is engaged in) and ensure domestic tranquility while social programs
> are eroded, as almost certainly the programs will be? Economists are
> not magicians.

It would be good to see social programs eroded if not ended. Wars
eventually end. Social parasites only reproduce and multiply.

>  
> I don't accept all the self-pitying talk concerning America being as
> a modern day Roman Empire, with illegal immigrant barbarians invading
> from the south. Nevertheless, could America spend itself to a bad end
> as the Soviets did in 1991?

Only if there arises a nation that builds a more productive, dynamic
economy. The US and the USSR were roughly of similar population, and we
both outspent AND out developed them (almost all of their technological
advancements came from espionage against the US). China, being 4 times
larger in population, has the human potential, but may not have the
resource potential. It is already at the limits of its fresh water
capacity for its current farming technology.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 15:56:24 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Iraq war legal? 
In-Reply-To: <20050623144515.63957.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623155624.43240.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Of course the war isn't legal but since international law is fuzzy,
> legality isn't the main issue, especially since 27 months have
> elapsed since Iraq was invaded. I don't know if the war is justified,
> however its opponents aren't convincing enough in their arguments of
> how America and the allies ought to cut their losses and exit. And
> besides, just as antiwar activists don't want anything to do with the
> Iraq war, some of us do not want anything to do with protesting that
> war.

The fact is that if the war were REALLY illegal, all the other nations
in the UN would be obligated to ally together to attack and defeat the
US. It has been two years with no response. The silence is your answer
as to the real legality, the precedent is set. Ultima Ratio Regum.

"CANNON - n. (KEH-nun) An instrument used in the rectification of
national boundaries."   - Ambrose Bierce

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Jun 23 15:58:18 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:58:18 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again 
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]><02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc><42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>
	<02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <001201c5780c$8d8f3300$02ee4d0c@MyComputer>

"Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>

> would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument from the
> American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was legal (not
> amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally savvy
> person who knows the case)

Well.. to each their own, but personally I would not find an argument about
the legality of the Iraq war the least bit interesting. As it turned out the
war was indeed wrong, but not because it violated some mystical and mythical
thing called international law, it was wrong because it was incorrect,  the
Iraqi people did not treat the Americans as liberators and all the war did
was solve a problem that turned out not to be a problem at all, Weapons of
Mass Destruction.  As for International "Law" (really international
suggestions) and the war's legality, who cares.

  John K Clark





From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 16:23:01 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:23:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again 
In-Reply-To: <001201c5780c$8d8f3300$02ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050623162301.4822.qmail@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Very few 'Arab' governments are sorry that Saddam was overthrown & Baathists are being decimated. The other Mideast governments want us out, but they don't begrudge America for lancing the Baathist abcess. I Don't second guess history after 27 months, but anyone else can do so if they want.

Iraqi people did not treat the Americans as liberators and all the war did
was solve a problem that turned out not to be a problem at all, Weapons of
Mass Destruction. As for International "Law" (really international
suggestions) and the war's legality, who cares.

John K Clark

		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 16:51:57 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050623154538.67092.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623165157.40232.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > Have you ever read "The Jungle?"
> 
> Yes, I have, and I am also aware that most of its claims were false,
> propaganda produced by Sinclair Lewis and his fabian socialist
> cohorts
> for political purposes, a fact which is well documented in the
> historical literature.

Sorry, Upton Sinclair was the socialist author...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 17:05:27 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050623165157.40232.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623170527.20114.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sinclair Lewis was the Christian writer who wrote that everyone has a "God-shaped opening in the soul"?

>Sorry, Upton Sinclair was the socialist author...



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From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 23 17:32:01 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:01 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <001201c5780c$8d8f3300$02ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
	<02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com>
	<02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<001201c5780c$8d8f3300$02ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <889C3065-C11E-4CC3-A21B-FE78EE3F2A6F@mac.com>

If law becomes "mythical and magical" or worse then we are lost.  The  
biggest brute force rules, for a time.

But I see the point that its legality is not particularly the point  
now.  The point in my view is that we went there based on lies, had  
grossly incorrect notions of how it would go, have lost more money  
and lives to chicanery and greed, and we will continue to lose in  
most every way as long as we hang on to the tar baby.  We are  
apparently acting like fools making decisions on the basis of sunk  
costs and sentimentality.

Me?  I would throw some arbitrary amount of money in for the Iraqis  
possibly under oversight of the UN to patch the country back together  
and get the hell out.   Say $50 billion or so.   Of course if I  
really believed peak oil is far too real and that the shit was about  
to hit the fan in energy and various other ways then I would hang on  
to my position there no matter how broken in its reasons or current  
results.

- s

On Jun 23, 2005, at 8:58 AM, John K Clark wrote:

> "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
>
>
>> would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument  
>> from the
>> American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was  
>> legal (not
>> amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally savvy
>> person who knows the case)
>>
>
> Well.. to each their own, but personally I would not find an  
> argument about
> the legality of the Iraq war the least bit interesting. As it  
> turned out the
> war was indeed wrong, but not because it violated some mystical and  
> mythical
> thing called international law, it was wrong because it was  
> incorrect,  the
> Iraqi people did not treat the Americans as liberators and all the  
> war did
> was solve a problem that turned out not to be a problem at all,  
> Weapons of
> Mass Destruction.  As for International "Law" (really international
> suggestions) and the war's legality, who cares.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 23 18:10:44 2005
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:10:44 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <889C3065-C11E-4CC3-A21B-FE78EE3F2A6F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F245E608E3128CA37EEF676B4EA0@phx.gbl>

I think it's just international law which is "mythical and magical". You 
can't have law unless it is formed by a sovereign entity and enforced. What 
we currently have is like contract law. And you can't break contracts if 
they were never mutually agreed upon.

BAL

>From: Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:01 -0700
>
>If law becomes "mythical and magical" or worse then we are lost.  The  
>biggest brute force rules, for a time.
>
>But I see the point that its legality is not particularly the point  now.  
>The point in my view is that we went there based on lies, had  grossly 
>incorrect notions of how it would go, have lost more money  and lives to 
>chicanery and greed, and we will continue to lose in  most every way as 
>long as we hang on to the tar baby.  We are  apparently acting like fools 
>making decisions on the basis of sunk  costs and sentimentality.
>
>Me?  I would throw some arbitrary amount of money in for the Iraqis  
>possibly under oversight of the UN to patch the country back together  and 
>get the hell out.   Say $50 billion or so.   Of course if I  really 
>believed peak oil is far too real and that the shit was about  to hit the 
>fan in energy and various other ways then I would hang on  to my position 
>there no matter how broken in its reasons or current  results.
>
>- s
>
>On Jun 23, 2005, at 8:58 AM, John K Clark wrote:
>
>>"Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
>>
>>
>>>would be *very* interested in seeing the best possible argument  from the
>>>American side, indeed from the Bush administration, that it was  legal 
>>>(not
>>>amateur hour stuff but the real thing from a lawyer or legally savvy
>>>person who knows the case)
>>>
>>
>>Well.. to each their own, but personally I would not find an  argument 
>>about
>>the legality of the Iraq war the least bit interesting. As it  turned out 
>>the
>>war was indeed wrong, but not because it violated some mystical and  
>>mythical
>>thing called international law, it was wrong because it was  incorrect,  
>>the
>>Iraqi people did not treat the Americans as liberators and all the  war 
>>did
>>was solve a problem that turned out not to be a problem at all,  Weapons 
>>of
>>Mass Destruction.  As for International "Law" (really international
>>suggestions) and the war's legality, who cares.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>extropy-chat mailing list
>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 18:13:55 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <DHEDKDAFOIKEGEPMAFCEMEMADCAA.henrik.ohrstrom@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050623181355.93783.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ayup. My mother, who some of you may recall had a very bad operation a
few years ago, told me recently she lost some faith in the outcome
before the operation when she asked her surgeon if he was a praying man
and he said 'no'. Knowing he was not praying for her may have had an
impact on her faith in her own recovery. She improved quite a bit once
she became aware enough to know that the Pope had prayed for her
specifically at mass at the Vatican. The docs were shocked, beyond just
a 'whew', that she actually lived through it all.

I replied to her, "But mum, do you think that God actually prays to
himself? Surgeons play god all the time, so it is only natural if they
don't see the point in prayer when they are assuming the office." ;)

--- Henrik ?hrstr?m <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com> wrote:

> You won't ever do a proper job if you belive that someone else is
> going to
> cover your mistakes.
> I prefere someone who do not belive that a dead patient (might be me)
> have
> gone to a better place.
> Nonbelivers make better Gods, when did you last get to see the design
> specs
> for any God?
> Sloppy work, no quality control.
> 
>  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GMD d- s+: a C++ UL P L+ E- W+@ N+ o K+ w O- M V- PS++ PE+ Y++ PGP++
> !t !5
> X- R+ tv- b+++ DI++ D+ G e+++ h---- r+++ y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> 
> 
> >
> > Think of it this way. How can a physician play God
> > with your life if he doesn't believe in God? ;)
> >
> >
> > The Avantguardian
> > is
> > Stuart LaForge
> > alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
> >
> > "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they
> > haven't attempted to contact us."
> > -Bill Watterson
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 18:14:03 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <889C3065-C11E-4CC3-A21B-FE78EE3F2A6F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050623181403.21456.qmail@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Naturally, the French are only "defending French interests", they would like to see their former  satellites 'civilized' and integrated into the continental system. 
Oh but of course mon ami, we are but bleating lambs of innocence, only looking out for the good of France, Europe and the world. So what if ve have to torture and kill some of that muslim scum in Norzern Africa such as the Americains do at Guantanamo? when we torture we do it with amour as the Marquis De Sade had done- only but with a leetle more elan & esprit. Even when we torture hideously we do it with taste and refinement, ve wear zee leather costu-umes not like those barbarian Americains who think they can just do whatever it is that they want. When we fought in Vietnam ve killed with couer amour, unlike the upstart Americains who are barbarians and cannot be trusted what with that George Bush who it is that wants to get all of that Iraqi petroleum when it rightfully should belong to a true friend of the Iraqi people who are not barbarians such as those Imperialistic barbarian Americains who go to muslim lands to imprison, torture and kill when ve would nevair do such a thing,
 ever.




		
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun 23 18:14:44 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:14:44 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging
  Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050623170527.20114.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050623165157.40232.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050623170527.20114.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050623131257.01d5bac8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 10:05 AM 6/23/2005 -0700, c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> speculated:

>Sinclair Lewis was the Christian writer who wrote that everyone has a 
>"God-shaped opening in the soul"?
>
> >Sorry, Upton Sinclair was the socialist author...

No, you're thinking of Lewis Carroll, who wrote that everyone has a 
"cupboard shaped hole in their sole".

Damienbroderick 



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 18:27:03 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:27:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F245E608E3128CA37EEF676B4EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20050623182703.49295.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brian Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I think it's just international law which is "mythical and magical".
> You can't have law unless it is formed by a sovereign entity and
> enforced. What we currently have is like contract law. And you can't
> break contracts if they were never mutually agreed upon.

Contract law is hardly "mythical and magical", it is properly the only
morally justifiable form of law beyond the common natural law, because
it is entirely consensual. I'd rather be judged by international law
than by the fascist Roman civil law now known as statute and regulation
any day of the week.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 18:33:12 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AI: IBM BlueGene/L top supercomputer,
	was: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Life in Biosphere 1
In-Reply-To: <20050622171453.4686.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623183313.75744.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://blogs.siliconvalley.com/gmsv/2005/06/1368_teraflops_.html

"136.8 teraflops? You da man, dawg.
No surprise, this: IBM and its Blue Gene supercomputer again claimed
the top spot in the Top500 supercomputer rankings. Built by IBM for
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Blue Gene/L recently recorded a
peak processing speed of 136.8 trillion calculations per second - or
teraflops - in testing. A jaw-dropping metric, even more so because
Blue Gene/L isn't even a complete system yet. It's currently fitted
with 62,000 microprocessors. IBM plans to double that number by
summer's end, giving the machine a peak performance expected to be in
excess of 360 teraflops. And then? Well, why not throw a few more
thousand on top of those? Said Dave Turek, a vice president of IBM's
deep computing division: "It's like constructing something out of Lego
building blocks.You can keep adding on to it." "

What is interesting is that the end size of BGL is to be 131,000 or so
processors. The current gigaflops per processor is ~2.1 at 62,000
processors. When they are done, the gigaflops per processor will be
2.75. Is this from using ever faster processors as it progresses, or
are they getting more work out of each processor the bigger the neural net?

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun 23 18:34:22 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:34:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging 
  Comments
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050623131257.01d5bac8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <20050623165157.40232.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050623170527.20114.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050623131257.01d5bac8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050623133257.01d172d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 01:14 PM 6/23/2005 -0500, I stupidly wrote:

>At 10:05 AM 6/23/2005 -0700, c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> speculated:
>
>>Sinclair Lewis was the Christian writer who wrote that everyone has a 
>>"God-shaped opening in the soul"?
>>
>> >Sorry, Upton Sinclair was the socialist author...
>
>No, you're thinking of Lewis Carroll, who wrote that everyone has a 
>"cupboard shaped hole in their sole".

Obviously what I meant was "a wardrobe shaped absence in their Boojum".

Damien Broderick 



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun 23 18:38:24 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued Over Anti-Aging   Comments
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050623133257.01d172d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050623183824.6435.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> At 01:14 PM 6/23/2005 -0500, I stupidly wrote:
> >At 10:05 AM 6/23/2005 -0700, c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> speculated:
> >>Sinclair Lewis was the Christian writer who wrote that everyone has
> a 
> >>"God-shaped opening in the soul"?
> >>
> >> >Sorry, Upton Sinclair was the socialist author...
> >
> >No, you're thinking of Lewis Carroll, who wrote that everyone has a 
> >"cupboard shaped hole in their sole".
> 
> Obviously what I meant was "a wardrobe shaped absence in their
> Boojum".

Or those who kick out their fellow man in their search for God, and
wind up with a human-shaped cavity in their heart.  (Or, for the worst
offenders, often winding up with bullet- or knife-shaped...)  ;)


From jonkc at att.net  Thu Jun 23 20:26:19 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:26:19 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <r02010500-1038-48EB408AE2AD11D9B087000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]><02bb01c576c3$46458a70$6e2a2dcb@homepc><42B8C25C.1010209@humanenhancement.com><02f701c576e8$9abd88d0$6e2a2dcb@homepc><001201c5780c$8d8f3300$02ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<889C3065-C11E-4CC3-A21B-FE78EE3F2A6F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002301c57831$e14d3030$98ef4d0c@MyComputer>

"Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>

>  If law becomes "mythical and magical"
>  or worse then we are lost.

Like it or not it's a fact of life that if the lawmaker is weak and has no
power of enforcement then its "law" is not a law at all, it is a suggestion.
I'm not saying that is good, I'm saying that's the way things are.  I just
wish the early opponents of the war had not wasted their time droning on and
on about international law, illegality and general silliness and instead
focused on the real flaws of the war idea; there were no WMD and the Iraqi
people will hate us if we invade. If they had done that then people like me
might not have been fooled and given (halfhearted) support for the war.  I
mean, if WMD had been found and if the Iraqi people had thrown flowers at
American soldiers instead of hand grenades would you really care if some
pinhead in Brussels said it was illegal?

Samantha I must admit that before the Iraqi war started and you were 100%
against it and I was 50% for it events have proven that you were 100% right,
and I was 50% wrong. To this day I think you were right for the wrong reason
but that's not important, the important thing is that you were right. Oh
well.., at least I was right about Afghanistan.

> The biggest brute force rules

The biggest brute ALWAYS rules, that is to say he makes the rules, that is
to say he makes the laws, and I'm talking about true laws not suggestions.
Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as brutes go
America must be in the top 5 percentile.

 John K Clark








From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 21:31:11 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <002301c57831$e14d3030$98ef4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050623213111.36132.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>
> 
> >  If law becomes "mythical and magical"
> >  or worse then we are lost.
> 
> Like it or not it's a fact of life that if the lawmaker is weak and
> has no power of enforcement then its "law" is not a law at all, it
> is a suggestion. I'm not saying that is good, I'm saying that's the
> way things are.  I just wish the early opponents of the war had not
> wasted their time droning on and on about international law,
> illegality and general silliness and instead focused on the real
> flaws of the war idea; there were no WMD and the Iraqi people will
> hate us if we invade. If they had done that then people like me
> might not have been fooled and given (halfhearted) support for the
> war.  I mean, if WMD had been found and if the Iraqi people had
> thrown flowers at American soldiers instead of hand grenades would
> you really care if some pinhead in Brussels said it was illegal?
> 
> Samantha I must admit that before the Iraqi war started and you were
> 100% against it and I was 50% for it events have proven that you were
> 100% right, and I was 50% wrong. To this day I think you were right
> for the wrong reason but that's not important, the important thing
> is that you were right.
> Oh well.., at least I was right about Afghanistan.

Not quite. Samantha claimed we would suffer 100,000 casualties in Iraq
(or 100,000 civilian casualties, or something along those lines), which
we are still nowhere near reaching 27 months later. The invasion itself
cost 150 civilian lives, and as we were calculating the other day, the
total civilian lives lost (20k according to the UN) is still markedly
less than the number of people who were being killed directly or
indirectly by Saddam and his regime prior to the war (~80k-100k per
year).

It is unfortunate that Bush was wrong about the WMD wrt Iraq (or,
rather, that he has failed to be proven right, which is a different
standard, given the evidence of secret Iraqi shipments to Syria in the
days before the invasion). However, as I said before, if the result is
a domino effect of democratization and individual liberty in the middle
east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or not: he knew how to make
them, had the expertise and will to do so, and the moment the world
chose to end sanctions with him still in power, he'd be back making
them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently is naively foolish.

There was an interesting article in GQ on Saddam's conversations with
his guards, who he seems to get along with well (he loves Rasin Bran
and Doritos). He still considers himself President and that he will be
returned to power when the US leaves the country. Megalomania like that
tells its own story.

> > The biggest brute force rules
> 
> The biggest brute ALWAYS rules, that is to say he makes the rules,
> that is to say he makes the laws, and I'm talking about true laws not
> suggestions.

International law isn't suggestion, it is contract. If parties to a
contract refuse to enforce its provisions (i.e. the UN enforcing a
cease fire agreement with Saddam, the UN enforcing its charter against
the US, etc) then it really carries very little weight, and less weight
over time the less it is enforced. Considering the first gulf war is
the first time the UN (and the only time, really) has functioned as it
was designed, it really is a joke and lacking in moral authority.

> Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as brutes
> go America must be in the top 5 percentile.

A very good point that some people either don't believe or don't want
to believe.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 23 21:27:13 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:27:13 +0100
Subject: AI: IBM BlueGene/L top supercomputer,
	was: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Life in Biosphere 1
In-Reply-To: <20050623183313.75744.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050622171453.4686.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20050623183313.75744.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05062314272c5d3013@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> What is interesting is that the end size of BGL is to be 131,000 or so
> processors. The current gigaflops per processor is ~2.1 at 62,000
> processors. When they are done, the gigaflops per processor will be
> 2.75. Is this from using ever faster processors as it progresses, or
> are they getting more work out of each processor the bigger the neural net?
> 

The processors are PowerPC 440 700 MHz (2.8 GFlops). 
It currently has 65536 processors. That's where the *theoretical*
maximum comes from.
2.8 x 131072 = 367 teraflops. 

The latest Linpack figures are:
Rpeak (GFlops):	183500
Rmax (GFlops):	136800

If you divide the Rpeak, 183500 / 65536 = 2.7999 GFlops.

Some of the experts are worrying about whether the mathematical
Linpack test is the proper test to use for supercomputers. It's not
that IBM have designed Blue Gene/L specifically to do well on the
Linpack test. It is just that their machine is designed for highly
threaded scientific work, which happens to be what Linpack is.
(Basically it measures floating-point processor performance).
Needless to say IBM and Intel like Linpack because they show up well on it.

Cray and AMD prefer the HPC Challenge Benchmark tests.
<http://news.taborcommunications.com/msgget.jsp?mid=400709>
<http://icl.cs.utk.edu/hpcc/index.html.php>

which also measure things like sustainable memory bandwidth,
communication bandwidth and random access integer memory updates.
 
Horses for courses really. 
Different applications, different benchmarks, different machines. 

BillK


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 22:11:23 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Physicians and Spirituality
In-Reply-To: <20050623181355.93783.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050623221123.80963.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>

Incidently there is long history of theism amongst
doctors. This is because the first physicians were
priests of Hermes or Apollo in ancient Greece and
priests of Thoth amongst the Egyptians. Therefore
there has always been a "sacred" quality to the
practice of medicine.





--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ayup. My mother, who some of you may recall had a
> very bad operation a
> few years ago, told me recently she lost some faith
> in the outcome
> before the operation when she asked her surgeon if
> he was a praying man
> and he said 'no'. Knowing he was not praying for her
> may have had an
> impact on her faith in her own recovery. She
> improved quite a bit once
> she became aware enough to know that the Pope had
> prayed for her
> specifically at mass at the Vatican. The docs were
> shocked, beyond just
> a 'whew', that she actually lived through it all.
> 
> I replied to her, "But mum, do you think that God
> actually prays to
> himself? Surgeons play god all the time, so it is
> only natural if they
> don't see the point in prayer when they are assuming
> the office." ;)
> 
> --- Henrik ?hrstr?m <henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > You won't ever do a proper job if you belive that
> someone else is
> > going to
> > cover your mistakes.
> > I prefere someone who do not belive that a dead
> patient (might be me)
> > have
> > gone to a better place.
> > Nonbelivers make better Gods, when did you last
> get to see the design
> > specs
> > for any God?
> > Sloppy work, no quality control.



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 23 22:21:04 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:04 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050623213111.36132.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050623213111.36132.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E45BAEA5-F545-44B1-A9B3-00E609D2F10E@mac.com>


On Jun 23, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
> Not quite. Samantha claimed we would suffer 100,000 casualties in Iraq
> (or 100,000 civilian casualties, or something along those lines),  
> which
> we are still nowhere near reaching 27 months later. The invasion  
> itself
> cost 150 civilian lives, and as we were calculating the other day, the
> total civilian lives lost (20k according to the UN) is still markedly
> less than the number of people who were being killed directly or
> indirectly by Saddam and his regime prior to the war (~80k-100k per
> year).
>

You are confused.  I claimed around 100,000 or more Iraqi dead.  And  
this is hardly the point.

> It is unfortunate that Bush was wrong about the WMD wrt Iraq (or,
> rather, that he has failed to be proven right, which is a different
> standard, given the evidence of secret Iraqi shipments to Syria in the
> days before the invasion).

Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real intelligence did not  
back it up and he was in position to have the real intelligence.    
The evidence is that he used bogus intel long after he knew it was  
bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure.  In short he  
defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not innocently mistaken.

> However, as I said before, if the result is
> a domino effect of democratization and individual liberty in the  
> middle
> east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or not: he knew how to make
> them, had the expertise and will to do so, and the moment the world
> chose to end sanctions with him still in power, he'd be back making
> them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently is naively foolish.
>

That is a foolish statement when we barely respect individual liberty  
at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various nations are  
attempting to color themselves democratic to escape being next on our  
"axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real democracy, much less  
real freedom.   Anyone who takes your hypothetical as somehow  
providing support for your stance would be foolish.

>
> International law isn't suggestion, it is contract. If parties to a
> contract refuse to enforce its provisions (i.e. the UN enforcing a
> cease fire agreement with Saddam, the UN enforcing its charter against
> the US, etc) then it really carries very little weight, and less  
> weight
> over time the less it is enforced. Considering the first gulf war is
> the first time the UN (and the only time, really) has functioned as it
> was designed, it really is a joke and lacking in moral authority.
>

Our abrogation of treaties we signed gives us more moral authority  
simply because we have more arms and will use them?

>
>> Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as brutes
>> go America must be in the top 5 percentile.
>>
>
> A very good point that some people either don't believe or don't want
> to believe.

I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and acting on  
principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is dead regardless of  
whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler occupying power.   I do  
not consider a lesser degree of flouting human rights including  
stooping to torture to be any less heinous - especially for America.   
It would be better not to be on the list of countries that act as  
brutes at all.

- samantha

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From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 22:28:22 2005
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Microbes Produce Miniature Electrical Wires  
In-Reply-To: <JEEOJKGAIKFKEHJONHMPGEGPEIAA.lcorbin@tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050623222822.41850.qmail@web60013.mail.yahoo.com>

Extropes,

I thought this interesting.  

http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/archive/2005/062205microbes.html

?Such long, thin conductive structures are
unprecedented in biology,? said Lovley. ?This
completely changes our concept of how microorganisms
can handle electrons, and it also seems likely that
microbial nanowires could be useful materials for the
development of extremely small electronic devices.?

The findings ... are ?promising and exciting,?
although ... the information must be independently
confirmed and extended by other microbiologists and
biophysicists. 

                 ******************

Humanity is so very proud of its technological
sophistication.  Stainless steel tech gear, micro/nano
computer gizmos, flashing LEDs, crisp white lab coats.
 But occasionally, when a fragment of the vast unknown
is revealed, I think of Dr. F's Igor, the overdressed
neanderthal.  Dumber than a sackfull of hammers.

Present company excepted, of course.  ;-)

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 23 23:02:04 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <E45BAEA5-F545-44B1-A9B3-00E609D2F10E@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050623230204.41579.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real intelligence did not  
> back it up and he was in position to have the real intelligence.    
> The evidence is that he used bogus intel long after he knew it was  
> bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure.  In short he  
> defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not innocently mistaken.

How do you know what Bush believed? Bush tends to have convictions, and
has been raised to know the limits of an intelligence apparatus that
has been hamstrung by political games for decades. Knowing your intel
apparatus doesn't have info doesn't mean the info doesn't exist. As I
said, whether or not he knew whether Saddam had WMD is really
immaterial. He did know (and it has been proven) that Saddam had the
technical knowledge, manpower, and willingness to make WMD as soon as
the world stopped watching him. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

> > However, as I said before, if the result is
> > a domino effect of democratization and individual liberty in the  
> > middle
> > east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or not: he knew how to
> make
> > them, had the expertise and will to do so, and the moment the world
> > chose to end sanctions with him still in power, he'd be back making
> > them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently is naively
> foolish.
> >
> 
> That is a foolish statement when we barely respect individual liberty
> at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various nations are  
> attempting to color themselves democratic to escape being next on our
> "axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real democracy, much less  
> real freedom.   Anyone who takes your hypothetical as somehow  
> providing support for your stance would be foolish.

Even the color of democracy has power. It is a common occurence for
criminals caught in other nations to insist that they be read their
miranda rights, because they saw it on some reruns of Starsky and
Hutch. If a nation tells its people they are democratic, then the
people will start believing in democracy, and start believing that they
control their governments. This is a dangerous game for a government to
play if it doesn't really intend to give them that power. Just look at
what happened in the Ukraine.

> 
> >
> > International law isn't suggestion, it is contract. If parties to a
> > contract refuse to enforce its provisions (i.e. the UN enforcing a
> > cease fire agreement with Saddam, the UN enforcing its charter
> against
> > the US, etc) then it really carries very little weight, and less  
> > weight
> > over time the less it is enforced. Considering the first gulf war
> is
> > the first time the UN (and the only time, really) has functioned as
> it
> > was designed, it really is a joke and lacking in moral authority.
> >
> 
> Our abrogation of treaties we signed gives us more moral authority  
> simply because we have more arms and will use them?

More misuse of words. Withdrawing from a treaty according to the terms
for withdrawal written into that treaty is not abrogation. Neither is
refusing to ratify a treaty that was merely signed by a previous
administration (which itself refused to ratify it). Claiming otherwise
is fraud.

>>> Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as
> >> brutes go America must be in the top 5 percentile.
> >>
> >
> > A very good point that some people either don't believe or don't
> > want to believe.
> 
> I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and acting on  
> principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is dead regardless of  
> whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler occupying power. I do
> not consider a lesser degree of flouting human rights including  
> stooping to torture to be any less heinous - especially for America. 
> It would be better not to be on the list of countries that act as  
> brutes at all.

Show me one country that doesn't have a brute for a government. They
don't exist. It is the job of government to be the biggest brute in its
territory, no matter what purposes it puts that brutishness to.
Organizations become governments by winning the brute game. The only
difference between a government and a mafia is that one is bigger and
more powerful than the other.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 24 01:15:02 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:15:02 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050623230204.41579.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050623230204.41579.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AE149076-A74A-4A36-9298-7291D33E4C79@mac.com>


On Jun 23, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real intelligence did not
>> back it up and he was in position to have the real intelligence.
>> The evidence is that he used bogus intel long after he knew it was
>> bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure.  In short he
>> defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not innocently mistaken.
>>
>
> How do you know what Bush believed?

Because of subsequent memos and other reports that have come out  
since then.

> Bush tends to have convictions, and
> has been raised to know the limits of an intelligence apparatus that
> has been hamstrung by political games for decades. Knowing your intel
> apparatus doesn't have info doesn't mean the info doesn't exist.

My point was that some of the supporting arguments he presented  
(yellow cake for instance) we no know he was still presenting after  
he knew they were baseless.

> As I
> said, whether or not he knew whether Saddam had WMD is really
> immaterial. He did know (and it has been proven) that Saddam had the
> technical knowledge, manpower, and willingness to make WMD as soon as
> the world stopped watching him. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
>

That is utterly irrelevant to the lies that we were told in  
justification.

>
>>> However, as I said before, if the result is
>>> a domino effect of democratization and individual liberty in the
>>> middle
>>> east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or not: he knew how to
>>>
>> make
>>
>>> them, had the expertise and will to do so, and the moment the world
>>> chose to end sanctions with him still in power, he'd be back making
>>> them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently is naively
>>>
>> foolish.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That is a foolish statement when we barely respect individual liberty
>> at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various nations are
>> attempting to color themselves democratic to escape being next on our
>> "axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real democracy, much less
>> real freedom.   Anyone who takes your hypothetical as somehow
>> providing support for your stance would be foolish.
>>
>
> Even the color of democracy has power. It is a common occurence for
> criminals caught in other nations to insist that they be read their
> miranda rights, because they saw it on some reruns of Starsky and
> Hutch. If a nation tells its people they are democratic, then the
> people will start believing in democracy, and start believing that  
> they
> control their governments. This is a dangerous game for a  
> government to
> play if it doesn't really intend to give them that power. Just look at
> what happened in the Ukraine.
>

Interesting point. It is a pity that much of the US is fooled by the  
game though. :-8

>
>>>> Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as
>>>> brutes go America must be in the top 5 percentile.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A very good point that some people either don't believe or don't
>>> want to believe.
>>>
>>
>> I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and acting on
>> principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is dead regardless of
>> whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler occupying power. I do
>> not consider a lesser degree of flouting human rights including
>> stooping to torture to be any less heinous - especially for America.
>> It would be better not to be on the list of countries that act as
>> brutes at all.
>>
>
> Show me one country that doesn't have a brute for a government. They
> don't exist. It is the job of government to be the biggest brute in  
> its
> territory, no matter what purposes it puts that brutishness to.
> Organizations become governments by winning the brute game. The only
> difference between a government and a mafia is that one is bigger and
> more powerful than the other.

This isn't what the Founders said they were attempting to build.  And  
no, that is not the only difference.  What happened to "that  
government is best that governs least"?  What happened to the  
minarchist government ideal that government exists only by the  
consent of the governed in order to do only those things that cannot  
be done as well or without chaos by private groups to secure the  
rights of the people?  What of the notion of the goodness of avoiding  
foreign entanglements?  Ah, I forgot.  You believe that freedom  
requires taking responsibility for the freedom of everyone in the world.

- samantha


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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 02:53:10 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <AE149076-A74A-4A36-9298-7291D33E4C79@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050624025310.21264.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No doubt. However a liar known as FDR skillfully
manipulated the US into WWII. All wars are
orchestrated by liars, cheaters, and connivers. So
what. The war is legally unjustified, we agree on
that. So what do we do after over two years and three
months? What's the fallback position?


> >> Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real
> intelligence did not
> >> back it up and he was in position to have the
> real intelligence.
> >> The evidence is that he used bogus intel long
> after he knew it was
> >> bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure. 
> In short he
> >> defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not
> innocently mistaken.
> >>
> >
> > How do you know what Bush believed?
> 
> Because of subsequent memos and other reports that
> have come out  
> since then.
> 
> > Bush tends to have convictions, and
> > has been raised to know the limits of an
> intelligence apparatus that
> > has been hamstrung by political games for decades.
> Knowing your intel
> > apparatus doesn't have info doesn't mean the info
> doesn't exist.
> 
> My point was that some of the supporting arguments
> he presented  
> (yellow cake for instance) we no know he was still
> presenting after  
> he knew they were baseless.
> 
> > As I
> > said, whether or not he knew whether Saddam had
> WMD is really
> > immaterial. He did know (and it has been proven)
> that Saddam had the
> > technical knowledge, manpower, and willingness to
> make WMD as soon as
> > the world stopped watching him. Anyone who thinks
> otherwise is a fool.
> >
> 
> That is utterly irrelevant to the lies that we were
> told in  
> justification.
> 
> >
> >>> However, as I said before, if the result is
> >>> a domino effect of democratization and
> individual liberty in the
> >>> middle
> >>> east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or
> not: he knew how to
> >>>
> >> make
> >>
> >>> them, had the expertise and will to do so, and
> the moment the world
> >>> chose to end sanctions with him still in power,
> he'd be back making
> >>> them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently
> is naively
> >>>
> >> foolish.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> That is a foolish statement when we barely
> respect individual liberty
> >> at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various
> nations are
> >> attempting to color themselves democratic to
> escape being next on our
> >> "axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real
> democracy, much less
> >> real freedom.   Anyone who takes your
> hypothetical as somehow
> >> providing support for your stance would be
> foolish.
> >>
> >
> > Even the color of democracy has power. It is a
> common occurence for
> > criminals caught in other nations to insist that
> they be read their
> > miranda rights, because they saw it on some reruns
> of Starsky and
> > Hutch. If a nation tells its people they are
> democratic, then the
> > people will start believing in democracy, and
> start believing that  
> > they
> > control their governments. This is a dangerous
> game for a  
> > government to
> > play if it doesn't really intend to give them that
> power. Just look at
> > what happened in the Ukraine.
> >
> 
> Interesting point. It is a pity that much of the US
> is fooled by the  
> game though. :-8
> 
> >
> >>>> Of course some brute are kinder than others,
> and I must say as
> >>>> brutes go America must be in the top 5
> percentile.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A very good point that some people either don't
> believe or don't
> >>> want to believe.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and
> acting on
> >> principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is
> dead regardless of
> >> whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler
> occupying power. I do
> >> not consider a lesser degree of flouting human
> rights including
> >> stooping to torture to be any less heinous -
> especially for America.
> >> It would be better not to be on the list of
> countries that act as
> >> brutes at all.
> >>
> >
> > Show me one country that doesn't have a brute for
> a government. They
> > don't exist. It is the job of government to be the
> biggest brute in  
> > its
> > territory, no matter what purposes it puts that
> brutishness to.
> > Organizations become governments by winning the
> brute game. The only
> > difference between a government and a mafia is
> that one is bigger and
> > more powerful than the other.
> 
> This isn't what the Founders said they were
> attempting to build.  And  
> no, that is not the only difference.  What happened
> to "that  
> government is best that governs least"?  What
> happened to the  
> minarchist government ideal that government exists
> only by the  
> consent of the governed in order to do only those
> things that cannot  
> be done as well or without chaos by private groups
> to secure the  
> rights of the people?  What of the notion of the
> goodness of avoiding  
> foreign entanglements?  Ah, I forgot.  You believe
> that freedom  
> requires taking responsibility for the freedom of
> everyone in the world.
> 
> - samantha
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



		
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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Jun 24 04:47:04 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:47:04 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050623213111.36132.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<E45BAEA5-F545-44B1-A9B3-00E609D2F10E@mac.com>
Message-ID: <005901c57877$fb4101b0$0def4d0c@MyComputer>

Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> Wrote:


> Bush never believed the WMD claim. 

 

I have a hunch that is probably untrue, after all most of the evil in the world is caused by sincere true believers, and it seems that every intelligent agency in the world thought Iraq had WMD, I certainly did. But that does not excuses Bush's blunder to the slightest extent, when you present evidence why the nation should go to war you better damn be right. Bush was not right and crappy intelligence is no God damn excuse.

 

John K Clark    

 



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From jonkc at att.net  Fri Jun 24 04:58:27 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:58:27 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050624025310.21264.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006401c57879$60e1bdb0$0def4d0c@MyComputer>

"c c" <beb_cc at yahoo.com>

> a liar known as FDR skillfully manipulated the US into WWII.  

I don't know if that is true, but if it is then three cheers for FDR. 

 John K Clark 










From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 13:49:48 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <006401c57879$60e1bdb0$0def4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050624134948.94594.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> "c c" <beb_cc at yahoo.com>
> 
> > a liar known as FDR skillfully manipulated the US into WWII.  
> 
> I don't know if that is true, but if it is then three cheers for FDR.

The same was done by Wilson to get us into WWI, and we were manipulated
into the Spanish American war by Hearst, Truman got us into the Korean
War because he emaciated our military after WWII, which encouraged
Stalin and Kim to invade South Korea, while Johnson engineered the
Tonkin Gulf incident.

What is more important than who manipulated or lied to get us into a
war, is whether more good came out of the war than not. Did the human
condition improve in any way? The march of democracy and individual
liberties around the planet in the 20th century is testament that for
the most part, the human condition did improve, and often required
combat to punctuate the equilibrium of tyranny previously established.
It has cost us the mortgaging of America and the fractional slavery of
every citizen to the government. Whether that sacrifice is truly
considered by those who benefitted from the sacrifice more is worthy of
debate, but neither should the results be denied.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 24 14:13:40 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:13:40 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050624134948.94594.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624134948.94594.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BC1514.3010401@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>"c c" <beb_cc at yahoo.com>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>a liar known as FDR skillfully manipulated the US into WWII.  
>>>      
>>>
>>I don't know if that is true, but if it is then three cheers for FDR.
>>    
>>
>
>The same was done by Wilson to get us into WWI, and we were manipulated
>into the Spanish American war by Hearst, Truman got us into the Korean
>War because he emaciated our military after WWII, which encouraged
>Stalin and Kim to invade South Korea, while Johnson engineered the
>Tonkin Gulf incident.
>
>What is more important than who manipulated or lied to get us into a
>war, is whether more good came out of the war than not. Did the human
>condition improve in any way? The march of democracy and individual
>liberties around the planet in the 20th century is testament that for
>the most part, the human condition did improve, and often required
>combat to punctuate the equilibrium of tyranny previously established.
>It has cost us the mortgaging of America and the fractional slavery of
>every citizen to the government. Whether that sacrifice is truly
>considered by those who benefitted from the sacrifice more is worthy of
>debate, but neither should the results be denied.
>
>  
>
I disagree.
A very good argument could be made that the US intervention in WW1 
created the conditions for most of the misery of the last century. It 
would probably have been better for the European powers to fight to 
exhaustion and settle by mutual negotiation.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 15:34:25 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
In-Reply-To: <006401c57879$60e1bdb0$0def4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050624153425.33424.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Or two cheers at least. BTW a good place to start pruning govt. spending is in the Defense sector. All those programs where a vet is paid $25,000 for six months work? Terminate 'em. Let the market decide the salary for those sort of jobs. Selective Service ought to be terminated, too. Right away.


I don't know if that is true, but if it is then three cheers for FDR. 

John K Clark 


		
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 24 16:31:31 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:31:31 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
In-Reply-To: <20050624153425.33424.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624153425.33424.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2A984B5C-6BD5-4093-9C07-63F564A33456@mac.com>

Cheer the most rabid socialist president in US history?  I think not.

-s
On Jun 24, 2005, at 8:34 AM, c c wrote:

> Or two cheers at least. BTW a good place to start pruning govt.  
> spending is in the Defense sector. All those programs where a vet  
> is paid $25,000 for six months work? Terminate 'em. Let the market  
> decide the salary for those sort of jobs. Selective Service ought  
> to be terminated, too. Right away.
>
>
> I don't know if that is true, but if it is then three cheers for FDR.
>
> John K Clark
>
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>

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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 18:31:17 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
Message-ID: <20050624183117.86126.qmail@web33712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050624/ap_on_re_us/draft_ap_ipsos_poll










		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 20:06:40 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42BC1514.3010401@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050624200640.17395.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >
> >The same was done by Wilson to get us into WWI, and we were
> manipulated
> >into the Spanish American war by Hearst, Truman got us into the
> Korean
> >War because he emaciated our military after WWII, which encouraged
> >Stalin and Kim to invade South Korea, while Johnson engineered the
> >Tonkin Gulf incident.
> >
> >What is more important than who manipulated or lied to get us into a
> >war, is whether more good came out of the war than not. Did the
> human
> >condition improve in any way? The march of democracy and individual
> >liberties around the planet in the 20th century is testament that
> for
> >the most part, the human condition did improve, and often required
> >combat to punctuate the equilibrium of tyranny previously
> established.
> >It has cost us the mortgaging of America and the fractional slavery
> of
> >every citizen to the government. Whether that sacrifice is truly
> >considered by those who benefitted from the sacrifice more is worthy
> of
> >debate, but neither should the results be denied.
> >
> >  
> >
> I disagree.
> A very good argument could be made that the US intervention in WW1 
> created the conditions for most of the misery of the last century. It
> would probably have been better for the European powers to fight to 
> exhaustion and settle by mutual negotiation.
> 

Such a scenario would have resulted in europe-wide communist revolution
in the aftermath of popular disgust with existing governments, and
global war between Eurasia and the US by 1940, with the communists
controlling atomic technology.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 20:09:07 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
In-Reply-To: <20050624153425.33424.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050624200908.45853.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Or two cheers at least. BTW a good place to start pruning govt.
> spending is in the Defense sector. All those programs where a vet is
> paid $25,000 for six months work? Terminate 'em. Let the market
> decide the salary for those sort of jobs. Selective Service ought to
> be terminated, too. Right away.

What are you smoking? $25k for 6 months is $50k for 12, hardly enough
to rent a crate to live in in the Bay area. If the market decided,
they'd be making twice as much. Gov't pay rates never match market
rates, except for union run highway construction.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 20:11:29 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050624183117.86126.qmail@web33712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050624201129.19550.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050624/ap_on_re_us/draft_ap_ipsos_poll

Which is why there is no draft, no desire for a draft, and will be no
draft. Those talking about drafts are minority politicians with no pull
and radical leftists who are put out that the students of today are not
so anti-war enough to protest because they are not personally at risk
with the current day all-volunteer force. The left wants to create a
draft in order to build anti-war sentiment, by interfering with
military recruitment efforts. One more socialist shibboleth.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 20:23:05 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e050622153821b14e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050624202305.85610.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/22/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > 
> > This is also wrong, incorrect, not in accordance with the facts.
> There
> > had a been an election. Noriega lost. Noriega refused to admit
> defeat,
> > had his forces beat up and imprisone those who protested (and shot
> a US
> > military officer). The winner fled the country and requested our
> > assistance in restoring the rightfully elected government to power.
> > Under the Organization of American States Charter, the US
> government
> > was bound to do so for a co-signatory government. These are the
> facts.
> > I know from personal experience. To claim otherwise is to
> perpetrate a
> > fraud for the sake of anti-US propaganda.
> > 
> > Stop it.
> > 
> 
> But, but, but,.... Mike, you can't just selectively quote the facts
> you happen to like, and omit other facts that tell a different story.
> The US was certainly not squeaky clean in the Noriega affair.
> 
> Noriega was in the pay of, and trained by, the CIA, possibly from as
> early as 1960 until 1988. Then he fell out with his US paymasters.

"facts" that 'tell' a different story are propaganda. A law abiding
person is a law abiding person until the day they break the law. 

Whether that person was a high muckity muck or just a street thug and
undercover informant of the Chief of Police is immaterial to the fact
that the law was broken. Saying the Chief was corrupt because of his
prior association with the UI is immaterial to the case and not
justification for saying the UI's arrest for hacking an election and
killing a cop was unjust. Whether the Chief overlooked prior violations
of pickpocketing and selling pot is immaterial to whether or not in the
final instance, the UI killed a cop, hacked an election, and went over
the line of official tolerance. This is the sort of situation Noriega
put himself in.

Anything else said is tantamount to the excuse making one hears from
mob lawyers.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 24 20:32:12 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:32:12 +0100
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <20050624202305.85610.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624202305.85610.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BC6DCC.4010402@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>On 6/22/05, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>This is also wrong, incorrect, not in accordance with the facts.
>>>      
>>>
>>There
>>    
>>
>>>had a been an election. Noriega lost. Noriega refused to admit
>>>      
>>>
>>defeat,
>>    
>>
>>>had his forces beat up and imprisone those who protested (and shot
>>>      
>>>
>>a US
>>    
>>
>>>military officer). The winner fled the country and requested our
>>>assistance in restoring the rightfully elected government to power.
>>>Under the Organization of American States Charter, the US
>>>      
>>>
>>government
>>    
>>
>>>was bound to do so for a co-signatory government. These are the
>>>      
>>>
>>facts.
>>    
>>
>>>I know from personal experience. To claim otherwise is to
>>>      
>>>
>>perpetrate a
>>    
>>
>>>fraud for the sake of anti-US propaganda.
>>>
>>>Stop it.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>But, but, but,.... Mike, you can't just selectively quote the facts
>>you happen to like, and omit other facts that tell a different story.
>>The US was certainly not squeaky clean in the Noriega affair.
>>
>>Noriega was in the pay of, and trained by, the CIA, possibly from as
>>early as 1960 until 1988. Then he fell out with his US paymasters.
>>    
>>
>
>"facts" that 'tell' a different story are propaganda. A law abiding
>person is a law abiding person until the day they break the law. 
>
>Whether that person was a high muckity muck or just a street thug and
>undercover informant of the Chief of Police is immaterial to the fact
>that the law was broken. Saying the Chief was corrupt because of his
>prior association with the UI is immaterial to the case and not
>justification for saying the UI's arrest for hacking an election and
>killing a cop was unjust. Whether the Chief overlooked prior violations
>of pickpocketing and selling pot is immaterial to whether or not in the
>final instance, the UI killed a cop, hacked an election, and went over
>the line of official tolerance. This is the sort of situation Noriega
>put himself in.
>
>Anything else said is tantamount to the excuse making one hears from
>mob lawyers.
>
>
>  
>
If Noriega broke Panamanian law it was up to the people of Panama to 
deal with it.
Not the US.
If Noriega broke US law - from Panama - it was up to the people of 
Panama to deal with it at the request of the US
End of story.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 20:37:25 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Microbes Produce Miniature Electrical Wires  
In-Reply-To: <20050623222822.41850.qmail@web60013.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050624203725.25965.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>

I am delighted but not surprised. Nature is genius and
we are Her students. As a microbiologist I firmly
believe that microbes will save or damn the world
depending on what we do with them.




--- Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Extropes,
> 
> I thought this interesting.  
> 
>
http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/archive/2005/062205microbes.html
> 
> ?Such long, thin conductive structures are
> unprecedented in biology,? said Lovley. ?This
> completely changes our concept of how microorganisms
> can handle electrons, and it also seems likely that
> microbial nanowires could be useful materials for
> the
> development of extremely small electronic devices.?
> 
> The findings ... are ?promising and exciting,?
> although ... the information must be independently
> confirmed and extended by other microbiologists and
> biophysicists. 
> 
>                  ******************
> 
> Humanity is so very proud of its technological
> sophistication.  Stainless steel tech gear,
> micro/nano
> computer gizmos, flashing LEDs, crisp white lab
> coats.
>  But occasionally, when a fragment of the vast
> unknown
> is revealed, I think of Dr. F's Igor, the
> overdressed
> neanderthal.  Dumber than a sackfull of hammers.
> 
> Present company excepted, of course.  ;-)
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis
> 
>    "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                            Ray Charles
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jun 24 21:17:47 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:17:47 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050624201129.19550.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624201129.19550.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>


On Jun 24, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050624/ap_on_re_us/draft_ap_ipsos_poll
>>
>
> Which is why there is no draft, no desire for a draft, and will be no
> draft. Those talking about drafts are minority politicians with no  
> pull
> and radical leftists who are put out that the students of today are  
> not
> so anti-war enough to protest because they are not personally at risk
> with the current day all-volunteer force. The left wants to create a
> draft in order to build anti-war sentiment, by interfering with
> military recruitment efforts. One more socialist shibboleth.

There will be draft and it will come from the current  
administration.  Bank on it.

-s



From dirk at neopax.com  Fri Jun 24 21:31:18 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:31:18 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>
References: <20050624201129.19550.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42BC7BA6.2040901@neopax.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
> On Jun 24, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050624/ap_on_re_us/draft_ap_ipsos_poll
>>>
>>
>> Which is why there is no draft, no desire for a draft, and will be no
>> draft. Those talking about drafts are minority politicians with no  pull
>> and radical leftists who are put out that the students of today are  not
>> so anti-war enough to protest because they are not personally at risk
>> with the current day all-volunteer force. The left wants to create a
>> draft in order to build anti-war sentiment, by interfering with
>> military recruitment efforts. One more socialist shibboleth.
>
>
> There will be draft and it will come from the current  
> administration.  Bank on it.

True.
Without it they can't invade and occupy more than one uppity nation.
Iran and Syria are still on the list, then there's NK waiting in the wings.
For full marks who is currently saying about Iraq "...withdrawal with 
honour".
Deja vu...

Maybe Bush can get three Vietnams going at once.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 21:47:26 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being Sued
	Over Anti-Aging Comments
In-Reply-To: <42BC6DCC.4010402@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050624214726.23922.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >
> >"facts" that 'tell' a different story are propaganda. A law abiding
> >person is a law abiding person until the day they break the law. 
> >
> >Whether that person was a high muckity muck or just a street thug
> and
> >undercover informant of the Chief of Police is immaterial to the
> fact
> >that the law was broken. Saying the Chief was corrupt because of his
> >prior association with the UI is immaterial to the case and not
> >justification for saying the UI's arrest for hacking an election and
> >killing a cop was unjust. Whether the Chief overlooked prior
> violations
> >of pickpocketing and selling pot is immaterial to whether or not in
> the
> >final instance, the UI killed a cop, hacked an election, and went
> over
> >the line of official tolerance. This is the sort of situation
> Noriega
> >put himself in.
> >
> >Anything else said is tantamount to the excuse making one hears from
> >mob lawyers.
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> If Noriega broke Panamanian law it was up to the people of Panama to 
> deal with it.
> Not the US.
> If Noriega broke US law - from Panama - it was up to the people of 
> Panama to deal with it at the request of the US
> End of story.

You don't get it: treaties that are ratified by the US Senate are US
law. The Charter of the Organization of American States is thus US law.
The US was also bound by bi-lateral treaties with Panama, particularly
the 1977 Panama Canal Treaty, which abrogated all prior bi-lateral
treaties including the 1903 Panama Canal Treaty. They also signed a
second treaty, the Treaty Concerning the Permanent Neutrality and
Operation of the Panama Canal, or simply the Neutrality Treaty, which
was a much shorter document. Because it had no fixed termination date,
this treaty was the major source of controversy. Under its provisions,
the United States and Panama agreed to guarantee the canal's neutrality
"in order that both in time of peace and in time of war it shall remain
secure and open to peaceful transit by the vessels of all nations on
terms of entire equality." In times of war, however, United States and
Panamanian warships were entitled to "expeditious" transit of the canal
under the provisions of Article VI. A protocol was attached to the
Neutrality Treaty, and all nations of the world were invited to
subscribe to its provisions. 

At the same ceremony in Washington, representatives of the United
States and Panama signed a series of fourteen executive agreements
associated with the treaties. These included two Agreements in
Implementation of Articles III and IV of the Panama Canal Treaty that
detailed provisions concerning operation, management, protection, and
defense, outlined in the main treaty. Most importantly, these two
agreements defined the areas to be held by the United States until 2000
to operate and defend the canal. These areas were distinguished from
military areas to be used jointly by the United States and Panama until
that time, military areas to be held initially by the United States but
turned over to Panama before 2000, and areas that were turned over to
Panama on October 1, 1979. 

Major problems with these treaties involved the fact that they were
signed by Torrijos, who was a dictator who let the 1969 coup against
the democratic government of Panama, although to his credit he
redemocratized the country after the Panama treaties were signed and
returned merely to the control of the National Guard, while Aristedes
Royo was the elected President. Torrijos' death in a plane accident
that many credit to a plot by Noriega led to Noriega's ascension to
head of the National Guard, and eventual coup when he refused to
recognise Endara's election victory in 1989.

In addition to drug trafficking, Noriega declared war on the United
States on December 15, 1989. His forces shot and killed a U.S. Marine
stationed in Panama City. It was also alleged that his forces were
engaging in widespread harassment of other US troops, including at
least one case of sexual abuse. This IMHO fully justifies the US
invasion. This is something the peaceniks always seem to ignore: it
doesn't really matter if the US Congress declared war if the enemy
already did so.



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From jonkc at att.net  Fri Jun 24 21:51:22 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:51:22 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
References: <20050624153425.33424.qmail@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007201c57906$ff551d60$bcee4d0c@MyComputer>

CC wrote:
  > A good place to start pruning govt. spending is in the Defense sector.

   

  I certainly want smaller government, much much much smaller, zero would be perfect, but pruning the Defense sector is the very last place I'd look to achieve that goal. The reason I say this is because generating an army is the most difficult challenge facing radical libertarian free marketers like me. I am certainly not saying it's imposable, but it is difficult, I expect it will be the very last government function to be replaced by the more efficient market; so don't be so anxious to dump the Defense department just yet, there is a huge amount of government junk and gunk and nonsense that deserves oblivion before defense.

   

  John K Clark

        
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 21:53:45 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:53:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050624215345.88444.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:> 
> On Jun 24, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > --- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050624/ap_on_re_us/draft_ap_ipsos_poll
> >>
> >
> > Which is why there is no draft, no desire for a draft, and will be
> > no draft. Those talking about drafts are minority politicians with
> > no pull and radical leftists who are put out that the students of
> > today are not so anti-war enough to protest because they are not
> > personally at risk with the current day all-volunteer force. The
> > left wants to create a
> > draft in order to build anti-war sentiment, by interfering with
> > military recruitment efforts. One more socialist shibboleth.
> 
> There will be draft and it will come from the current  
> administration.  Bank on it.

People have been saying this since before the Iraq war. Mike Badnarik
was 'guaranteeing' during the election that Bush would implement one by
January. Didn't happen. Now the left is getting all huffed up over the
fact that military recruiters have established a central database for
direct marketing recruiting materials most cost-effectively, as if they
didn't do that before (wrong). The only thing that is new now is that
the No Child Left Behind Act requires schools accepting federal aid to
supply full student lists to recruiters, whereas before recruiters had
to purchase lists from magazines and organizations that cater to
teenagers.

The impending draft is the biggest chicken-little story of this decade.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 24 22:09:44 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoparticles linked to chronic lung diseases
Message-ID: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>

I just attended a great talk by one of the professors
here at UCLA regarding the dangers of nanometer scale
air pollutants such as diesel carbon ash on the order
of 10-100 nm. He showed convincing data that it acts
as a immunological adjuvant that amplifies the immune
response to pollen and other normally harmless
allergens. This effect sensitizes people to those
allergens and causes massive inflammation of bronchial
passageways, resulting in bronchitis, asthma, and
COPD. Such chronic inflammation is also linked to
hypertension, heart disease, and eventually lung
cancer. The problem with these particles is that they
are small enough to go through even HEPA filters, so
they will require something else to deal with. In the
home, I would suggest one of those Ionic Breeze air
scrubbers. For the outdoors, I am not sure what would
work. Maybe military style gas masks or some kind of
not yet invented ion trap type air breather-mask.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Fri Jun 24 22:23:15 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:23:15 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
Message-ID: <1119651795.14299@whirlwind.he.net>

John K Clark wrote:
> so don't be so anxious to dump the Defense department
> just yet, there is a huge amount of government junk
> and gunk and nonsense that deserves oblivion before
> defense.


Government education spending dwarfs defense spending, for a good start,
and has never generated good results nor was wanted by the populace when
originally implemented -- the history of it is far different than people
imagine.  And public education did not become universal until *after*
the first World War.  There are still people alive today that did not
grow up with public education.

It makes one wonder how such remarkable literacy rates were maintained
throughout most of the country's history sans government schools.


cheers,

j. andrew rogers



From giogavir at yahoo.it  Fri Jun 24 22:25:30 2005
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:25:30 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoparticles linked to chronic lung diseases
In-Reply-To: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050624222530.74035.qmail@web26207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

maybe if all countries , including the US , sign and
implement the Kyoto protocol we may not need masks in
the near future
--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> ha
scritto: 

> I just attended a great talk by one of the
> professors
> here at UCLA regarding the dangers of nanometer
> scale
> air pollutants such as diesel carbon ash on the
> order
> of 10-100 nm. He showed convincing data that it acts
> as a immunological adjuvant that amplifies the
> immune
> response to pollen and other normally harmless
> allergens. This effect sensitizes people to those
> allergens and causes massive inflammation of
> bronchial
> passageways, resulting in bronchitis, asthma, and
> COPD. Such chronic inflammation is also linked to
> hypertension, heart disease, and eventually lung
> cancer. The problem with these particles is that
> they
> are small enough to go through even HEPA filters, so
> they will require something else to deal with. In
> the
> home, I would suggest one of those Ionic Breeze air
> scrubbers. For the outdoors, I am not sure what
> would
> work. Maybe military style gas masks or some kind of
> not yet invented ion trap type air breather-mask.
> 
> The Avantguardian 
> is 
> Stuart LaForge
> alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
> 
> "The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe
> is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
> -Bill Watterson
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



	

	
		
___________________________________ 
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Jun 24 23:22:18 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:22:18 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Microbes Can Produce Electrical Nanowires
Message-ID: <42BC95AA.9000301@mindspring.com>

Researchers at the University of Massachusetts Amherst have discovered a 
tiny biological structure that is highly electrically conductive. This 
breakthrough helps describe how microorganisms can clean up groundwater 
and produce electricity from renewable resources. It may also have 
applications in the emerging field of nanotechnology, which develops 
advanced materials and devices in extremely small dimensions.
 
More- http://www.physorg.com/news4722.html
 



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 00:43:22 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050624025310.21264.qmail@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050625004323.17520.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The war is legally unjustified, we agree on
> that. So what do we do after over two years and
> three
> months? What's the fallback position?
> 

There is no fallback position. We have go through with
it all the way. The Romans had a saying which
translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool can
start a war but only the victor can decide when to
stop fighting." One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue. And once
that happens, you have to win the brawl or lose it.
There is no fallback whether your initial blow was
justified or not. This is the karma of war and why any
use of force is a very grave life-or-death decision
not to be taken lightly by any head of state. This
wisdom is thousands of years old. A pity that Dubya
never read "the Art of War".


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun 25 02:35:52 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:35:52 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate (was Re: Iraq and
	legality again)
References: <20050624214726.23922.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c5792e$9af2ff40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> You don't get it: treaties that are ratified by the US Senate are US
> law.

I'm almost inclined to exclaim "Very Good Mike Lorrey". This is my
understanding too. I certainly think that such stands to reason. However
I am not a lawyer, nor am I a US citizen, though I am interested in the 
US and in its law and in its welfare. 

Can you please show me, if you are able and I do think you are, and
perhaps this will help you show some of your developing skills with
marshalling a legal arguments concisely, how it is that you have 
concluded that "treaties that ate ratified by the US Senate are US law."

Please do feel free to cite with cross referenced links, the appropriate
parts of the US constitution. You may or may not cite cases in support
of your argument but if you do cite them please be able to provide
links to them. 

I will not feel patronised if you make your case in such a way that even
a child could understand it, but if you make you case, if you communicate
in such a way, that even men and women of goodwill reading this list can
understand it then I think that would be excellent, I think that would be
a great service. You would have articulated an important and shining 
truth, and a truth on which we could then build. 

Regards,
Brett Paatsch



From megao at sasktel.net  Sat Jun 25 01:39:04 2005
From: megao at sasktel.net (Lifespan Pharma Inc.)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:39:04 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoparticles linked to chronic lung diseases
In-Reply-To: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BCB5B8.50308@sasktel.net>

Oh, Oh.....Just what I wanted to know....... I'm a walking test rabbit 
for the processes you mention.
For 3 years I operated a farm tractor with a cracked manifold and I am 
sure sucked in several hundred hours of
that sweetish smelling nano-puke a diesel engine puts out.

What concerns me is the residual nano particles that might become  
incorporated into lung tissue
and continue to generate "silent inflammation" over a lifetime.

The Avantguardian wrote:

>I just attended a great talk by one of the professors
>here at UCLA regarding the dangers of nanometer scale
>air pollutants such as diesel carbon ash on the order
>of 10-100 nm. He showed convincing data that it acts
>as a immunological adjuvant that amplifies the immune
>response to pollen and other normally harmless
>allergens. This effect sensitizes people to those
>allergens and causes massive inflammation of bronchial
>passageways, resulting in bronchitis, asthma, and
>COPD. Such chronic inflammation is also linked to
>hypertension, heart disease, and eventually lung
>cancer. The problem with these particles is that they
>are small enough to go through even HEPA filters, so
>they will require something else to deal with. In the
>home, I would suggest one of those Ionic Breeze air
>scrubbers. For the outdoors, I am not sure what would
>work. Maybe military style gas masks or some kind of
>not yet invented ion trap type air breather-mask.
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
>"
>
>
>  
>



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Jun 25 03:12:24 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:12:24 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Microbes Produce Miniature Electrical Wires
In-Reply-To: <20050624203725.25965.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624203725.25965.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BCCB98.2000809@mindspring.com>

Stuart,

The following excerpt from another mailing list brings up the hoary idea
that some microbiologists are meeting untimely and conspiratorial deaths.
Any comments?

Terry

     So far 88 microbiologists seem to have died under more-or-less
suspicious circumstances in the United States, the United Kingdom and
Western Europe (combined).

     But even such a relatively small population center as Greater
Cincinnati, Ohio, has four or five universities and a consortium of
hospitals, and thus employs THOUSANDS of microbiologists. Moreover,
the universities and in-house hospital educational programs graduate
hundreds more new microbiologists every year. And, again,  that's
merely one relatively minor population area.

     So if there is indeed a plot or conspiracy to wipe out
microbiologists, or even to seriously thin their ranks, it strikes me
as a remarkably ineffective one.


*****
The Avantguardian wrote:

>I am delighted but not surprised. Nature is genius and
>we are Her students. As a microbiologist I firmly
>believe that microbes will save or damn the world
>depending on what we do with them.
>
>
>
>
>--- Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Extropes,
>>
>>I thought this interesting.  
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/archive/2005/062205microbes.html
>  
>
>>"Such long, thin conductive structures are
>>unprecedented in biology," said Lovley. "This
>>completely changes our concept of how microorganisms
>>can handle electrons, and it also seems likely that
>>microbial nanowires could be useful materials for
>>the
>>development of extremely small electronic devices."
>>
>>The findings ... are "promising and exciting,"
>>although ... the information must be independently
>>confirmed and extended by other microbiologists and
>>biophysicists. 
>>
>>                 ******************
>>
>>Humanity is so very proud of its technological
>>sophistication.  Stainless steel tech gear,
>>micro/nano
>>computer gizmos, flashing LEDs, crisp white lab
>>coats.
>> But occasionally, when a fragment of the vast
>>unknown
>>is revealed, I think of Dr. F's Igor, the
>>overdressed
>>neanderthal.  Dumber than a sackfull of hammers.
>>
>>Present company excepted, of course.  ;-)
>>
>>Best, Jeff Davis
>>
>>   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>>                           Ray Charles
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>>protection around 
>>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>>_______________________________________________
>>extropy-chat mailing list
>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>
>>    
>>
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>  
>
>
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>  
>

-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

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From dirk at neopax.com  Sat Jun 25 03:16:49 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:16:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Microbes Produce Miniature Electrical Wires
In-Reply-To: <42BCCB98.2000809@mindspring.com>
References: <20050624203725.25965.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42BCCB98.2000809@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <42BCCCA1.2090006@neopax.com>

Terry W. Colvin wrote:

>Stuart,
>
>The following excerpt from another mailing list brings up the hoary idea
>that some microbiologists are meeting untimely and conspiratorial deaths.
>Any comments?
>
>Terry
>
>     So far 88 microbiologists seem to have died under more-or-less
>suspicious circumstances in the United States, the United Kingdom and
>Western Europe (combined).
>
>     But even such a relatively small population center as Greater
>Cincinnati, Ohio, has four or five universities and a consortium of
>hospitals, and thus employs THOUSANDS of microbiologists. Moreover,
>the universities and in-house hospital educational programs graduate
>hundreds more new microbiologists every year. And, again,  that's
>merely one relatively minor population area.
>
>     So if there is indeed a plot or conspiracy to wipe out
>microbiologists, or even to seriously thin their ranks, it strikes me
>as a remarkably ineffective one.
>
Only if they are 'random' - not if they were all working in a narrowly 
defined sub-discipline.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.0/27 - Release Date: 23/06/2005



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Sat Jun 25 03:20:33 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:20:33 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate
Message-ID: <1119669633.28188@whirlwind.he.net>

Brett Paatsch wrote:
> Can you please show me, if you are able and I do think you are, and
> perhaps this will help you show some of your developing skills with
> marshalling a legal arguments concisely, how it is that you have 
> concluded that "treaties that ate ratified by the US Senate are US law."


Treaties are not a legislative action and so they are not "law".  A treaty is a contract between 
governments, and does not in and of itself bind private citizens to the terms of that contract.

As a practical matter the governments that sign treaties are often compelled to pass laws 
that reflect the terms of the contract.  The Senate could ratify treaties all day, but unless the 
House of Representatives agrees to pass laws that enforce the terms of the treaty it is not 
binding on the private citizen, only on the government.

I am not a lawyer either, but this much seems obvious.

j. andrew rogers



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun 25 03:40:26 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:40:26 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050624215345.88444.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624215345.88444.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B43701E2-9F74-4821-9240-DB6E89099AA0@mac.com>


On Jun 24, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:>
>>
>> There will be draft and it will come from the current
>> administration.  Bank on it.
>>
>
> People have been saying this since before the Iraq war. Mike Badnarik
> was 'guaranteeing' during the election that Bush would implement  
> one by
> January. Didn't happen. Now the left is getting all huffed up over the
> fact that military recruiters have established a central database for
> direct marketing recruiting materials most cost-effectively, as if  
> they
> didn't do that before (wrong). The only thing that is new now is that
> the No Child Left Behind Act requires schools accepting federal aid to
> supply full student lists to recruiters, whereas before recruiters had
> to purchase lists from magazines and organizations that cater to
> teenagers.
>
> The impending draft is the biggest chicken-little story of this  
> decade.

Before 2008 there will be a draft and once again some will remember I  
said so.   Of coures I believe that before 2008 a draft will be the  
least of what we are worrying about.

- samantha

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 04:25:06 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate (was Re: Iraq
	and legality again)
In-Reply-To: <005b01c5792e$9af2ff40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050625042506.71423.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > You don't get it: treaties that are ratified by the US Senate are
> US
> > law.
> 
> I'm almost inclined to exclaim "Very Good Mike Lorrey". This is my
> understanding too. I certainly think that such stands to reason.
> However
> I am not a lawyer, nor am I a US citizen, though I am interested in
> the US and in its law and in its welfare. 
> 
> Can you please show me, if you are able and I do think you are, and
> perhaps this will help you show some of your developing skills with
> marshalling a legal arguments concisely, how it is that you have 
> concluded that "treaties that ate ratified by the US Senate are US
> law."

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

This:
Article II, Section 2, Clause 2, says: "He [The President] shall have
Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make
Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;"

determines how treaties become ratified by the US, while this:

Article III, Section 2, Clause 1, says: "The judicial Power shall
extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this
Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or
which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting
Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of
admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the
United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more
States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note
10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the
same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between
a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or
Subjects. "

Establishes the subject matter jurisdiction of the supreme Court (as
stated in Article III, Section 1) over interpretation of all Treaties
made, giving said treaties legal weight equal to the Common Law, Equity
Law, and any statutory law that is subsidiary to that Constitution, and
specifying all classes of parties that would fall under the personal
jurisdiction of that court as well. (Note that the Supreme Court does
not have personal jurisidiction over cases between a state and its own
citizens, or between foreign states and their own citizens or
subjects).

However it clearly states "under the Constitution", i.e. common law,
equity law, statute, and treaty are all subsidiary to the US
Constitution. This is a legal opinion, not universally accepted
(http://www.unwatch.com/treaties.html) as even today some judges, even
Justice Kennedy, are citing foreign legal precedent and foreign treaty
as if they override the US Constitution, whenever such precedents or
treaties serve Kennedy or his allies left-wing agenda of deconstructing
the Constitution's protections against foreign tyranny over Americans.
Congress is currently mulling a bill which will prohibit US courts from
citing foreign court rulings in their own opinions, as unconstitutional
imposition of foreign law upon Americans, one of the reasons the US had
its revolution against England (plaintiffs in the colonies were often
required to travel to England to have cases heard, imposing
considerable expense and risk of death).

This being said, it is clear that treaties which have been ratified by
the Senate and signed by the President are US law. Changes to US
statute to comply with rulings of the WTO under the terms of the GATT
Treaty have been several over the past decade since its ratification,
including changes to steel subsidies and import quotas. Changes to DOT
statutes and regulations have also been effected to comply with the
NAFTA, particularly in allowing Mexican and Canadian truck drivers to
service customers within the US (while being free to maintain their
rigs in compliance with trucking regs in their own home states or
provinces) rather than just transporting cargoes to customs houses at
or near the border.

Treaties have also established the legal boundaries of the United
States, such as the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842, which resolved
boundary differences between the US and british Canada along the Maine
and New Hampshire boundaries, differences which arose from the
vagueness of language in the original Paris Treaty that resolved the
Revolutionary War
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Indian_Stream . As such,
treaties establishing boundaries of legal jurisidictions

Supporting the constructionist opinion vis a vis the US Constitution
being above treaties, there is not a single amendment to the US
Constitution which has ever been brought about by a treaty with a
foreign nation or other organization. Furthermore, the founding fathers
agree:

"Addressing the scope and limits of the Constitution?s treaty power,
James Madison ? often described as the father of the Constitution ?
said the following:

'I do not conceive that power is given to the President and the Senate
to dismember the empire, or alienate any great, essential right. I do
not think the whole legislative authority have this power. The exercise
of the power must be consistent with the object of the delegation.'

Thomas Jefferson emphatically agreed with Madison?s depiction of the
limits placed upon the treaty power. If the treaty-making power is
"boundless," warned Jefferson, "then we have no Constitution." On
another occasion, Jefferson elaborated:

'By the general power to make treaties, the Constitution must have
intended to comprehend only those objects which are usually regulated
by treaty, and cannot be otherwise regulated.... It must have meant to
except out of those the rights reserved to the states; for surely the
President and Senate cannot do by treaty what the whole government is
interdicted from doing in any way.'

Alexander Hamilton was in perfect agreement with both Madison and
Jefferson. "The only constitutional exception to the power of making
treaties is, that it shall not change the Constitution.... On natural
principles, a treaty, which should manifestly betray or sacrifice
primary interests of the state, would be null." (Emphasis added.)

The observations of Jefferson and Hamilton are particularly valuable in
light of the danger posed by the ICC treaty. Since the president and
Senate are strictly and explicitly forbidden by the Constitution to
deny the protections and immunities guaranteed by the Bill of Rights,
they have no authority to conclude a treaty that would have the same
result. To paraphrase Hamilton, any such treaty signed by the president
and ratified by the Senate would, on "natural principles," be null and
void."  http://www.unwatch.com/treaties.html

To have both federalists and anti-federalists agree on this point
should make it clear what the founders intent was.

In this respect, a treaty with another nation does not prevent the
United States government from choosing to act to enforce or protect the
rights of its citizens if that nation is violating them, because the US
Constitution's Bill of Rights is clearly superior to any treaty the
Senate may ratify, nor does it prevent the US gov't from enforcing any
other provision of the US Constitution against the claimed
interpretation of any treaty. The Amistad case in particular is an
early example of this, in which US law against transporting slaves from
Africa to the US (the slaves claimed they had been kidnapped from the
African coast) was contested against diplomatic and legal treaties with
the King of Spain (whose subjects owned the ship and claimed to own the
mutinied slaves of the Amistad and to have been transporting them
between two ports of Cuba when the mutiny occured.)
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/amistad/AMI_SCT2.HTM

I highly encourage the reading of this opinion, and of this history of
the events leading up to it here: 
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/amistad/AMI_ACT.HTM

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun 25 06:41:20 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:41:20 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050625004323.17520.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050625004323.17520.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C69CC60A-84D0-4B97-BDA9-690BAC1A58CA@mac.com>


On Jun 24, 2005, at 5:43 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> The war is legally unjustified, we agree on
>> that. So what do we do after over two years and
>> three
>> months? What's the fallback position?
>>
>>
>
> There is no fallback position. We have go through with
> it all the way.

Baloney.  It is idiocy compounded to continue with what was stupid to  
begin with and ruinous to continue. The Iraqis would largely be  
delighted if we left.

> The Romans had a saying which
> translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool can
> start a war but only the victor can decide when to
> stop fighting."

Not really.  We could leave tomorrow if we liked.  Our military  
strength is disproportionally large and it is an occupation rather  
than a war where both sides feel compelled to continue.  The Iraqis  
would happily stop if we were not occupying their country.

> One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
> by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue.

This assumes relative equals and is very much inapplicable to the  
situation at hand.

> And once
> that happens, you have to win the brawl or lose it.

Again, inapplicable.

> There is no fallback whether your initial blow was
> justified or not. This is the karma of war and why any
> use of force is a very grave life-or-death decision
> not to be taken lightly by any head of state. This
> wisdom is thousands of years old. A pity that Dubya
> never read "the Art of War".

A pity that such bright people insist on searching for good excuses  
to continue shooting ourselves in the foot.

- samantha


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 09:14:05 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 02:14:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <C69CC60A-84D0-4B97-BDA9-690BAC1A58CA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050625091405.72367.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> >
> > There is no fallback position. We have go through
> with
> > it all the way.
> 
> Baloney.  It is idiocy compounded to continue with
> what was stupid to  
> begin with and ruinous to continue. The Iraqis would
> largely be  
> delighted if we left.

No to begin a fight over so little was idiocy. To
continue to its completion is now our only rational
recourse. I abhor wars in general and this one in
particular, but there is no other strategically sound
move at this juncture.



> 
> > The Romans had a saying which
> > translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool
> can
> > start a war but only the victor can decide when to
> > stop fighting."
> 
> Not really.  We could leave tomorrow if we liked. 
> Our military  
> strength is disproportionally large and it is an
> occupation rather  
> than a war where both sides feel compelled to
> continue.  The Iraqis  
> would happily stop if we were not occupying their
> country.

Yes, we could pull out tomorrow if we wanted to. Then
we would be repeating the mistakes of Britain in
Israel/Palestine and the French in Algeria. Those two
incidents were major victories for terrorism. Those
two highly publicised pull-outs by industrial
democracies from weaker nations in the face of
terrorist attacks sent the message, "Terrorism works
as an effective means of cowing large democratic
military powers." Because of these mistakes by England
and France, not to mention our own, we now have the
likes of Bin Ladin running around.
      If we pull out before Iraq's government is able
to fend for itself, it will be spun by every terrorist
rag in the world as a "victory for holy Islam". The
enemy (the true enemy and not the Iraqui insurgents)
will see this as an encouragment. The ranks of Al
Quaeda and other terrorist organizations will swell
with pride and numbers. Then 9-11s will happen every
year, until we are left squabling with each other in
the ashes of our former glory like post-Atilla the Hun
Rome.
 
> > One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
> > by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue.
> 
> This assumes relative equals and is very much
> inapplicable to the  
> situation at hand.

No it assumes that superiority is a matter of
sometimes faulty perception until conflict happens.
Then the resolution of the conflict itself determines
superiority. We were considered a second rate power
until WWII after which we became a superpower because
we WON. That is how the hegemons of the world come and
go. If we don't win, we are no longer superior. If are
no longer percieved as superior, our enemies will
close in on us. The more we fight, the more we lose
until we really are nothing. The fight that must be
won is the fight we are currently engaged in. The
whole world is watching and calculating. Kim Il Jong
is watching. We must win a decisive victory in Iraq or
we will have to fight dozens of more wars for the same
cause. Had we finished the fight in the first Gulf
War, we would not have had to fight this one. This is
the Tao of war. We cannot leave a wounded enemy alive
and turn our back on him. If we do, then we will be
ground beneath the chariot wheels of history.

> 
> > And once
> > that happens, you have to win the brawl or lose
> it.
> 
> Again, inapplicable.
> 
> > There is no fallback whether your initial blow was
> > justified or not. This is the karma of war and why
> any
> > use of force is a very grave life-or-death
> decision
> > not to be taken lightly by any head of state. This
> > wisdom is thousands of years old. A pity that
> Dubya
> > never read "the Art of War".
> 
> A pity that such bright people insist on searching
> for good excuses  
> to continue shooting ourselves in the foot.

     No Samantha. We shot ourselves in the foot by
invading Iraq in the first place. Now we have to
continue to fight so as not to lose our whole leg or
even our life.
     I am not searching for excuses to continue the
fighting. I hate this war but the consequence of our
initial invasion is that we HAVE to win it. This war
is no longer about what what it started as. It is
bigger than Iraq now. In some ways it is bigger than
the U.S. now. It is now a war of democracy versus
fundamentalist theocracy. Iraq has now become the
chosen physical nexus for a war of two great
psychospiritual forces. Iraq is now just a token
trophy. The true battlefield and prize at stake in
this conflict is the minds of men and women the world
over. 
      If we pull out now and let the Islamist fundies
take over Iraq, then Libya, Syria, and all those other
countries will start going back to their old ways. The
fundamentalist regime in Iran will then have a
powerful ally to assist it in opressing their own
people. Girls will be stoned to death by their own
brothers for showing their ankles to a stranger. The
Israeli/Palestinian conflict will escalate. And all
the sacrifices we have made in this bloody mess from
the 9-11 victims to the soldiers now dying nearly
daily will have been for NOTHING. Is this world you
would have Samantha? 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Sat Jun 25 10:35:55 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:35:55 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoparticles linked to chronic lung diseases
In-Reply-To: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050624220944.22979.qmail@web60511.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506251229590.976@zeus>

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, The Avantguardian wrote:

>I just attended a great talk by one of the professors
>here at UCLA regarding the dangers of nanometer scale
>air pollutants such as diesel carbon ash on the order
>of 10-100 nm.
>[...]
>they will require something else to deal with. In the
>home, I would suggest one of those Ionic Breeze air
>scrubbers. For the outdoors, I am not sure what would
>work. Maybe military style gas masks or some kind of
>not yet invented ion trap type air breather-mask.

Don't know the situation in the US, but here in Europe diesel fuel is on
the rise (and of higher quality than in the states, so possibly less
polluting), and there are recent European directives for member states
about PM10 pollutants, which as far as I understand means particles under
10 microns.

Of course my city, and many others, are WAY over the suggested limit and a
new generation of diesel engines (or actually, exaust systems with
catalizers and son on) will probably be required before limits can be met.

No military-type gas masks yet.

Alfio




From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Sat Jun 25 10:54:05 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:54:05 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] What's happening at FOX news?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506251253210.976@zeus>


Now going against Bush?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160556,00.html

Alfio


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jun 25 11:15:12 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:15:12 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate
References: <1119669633.28188@whirlwind.he.net>
Message-ID: <003b01c57977$27ba7f50$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

J. Andrew Rogers wrote:

> Brett Paatsch wrote:
>> Can you please show me, if you are able and I do think you are, and
>> perhaps this will help you show some of your developing skills with
>> marshalling a legal arguments concisely, how it is that you have
>> concluded that "treaties that ate ratified by the US Senate are US law."
>
>
> Treaties are not a legislative action and so they are not "law".  A treaty
> is a contract between governments, and does not in and of itself bind
> private citizens to the terms of that contract.
>
> As a practical matter the governments that sign treaties are often
> compelled to pass laws that reflect the terms of the contract.  The
> Senate could ratify treaties all day, but unless the House of
> Representatives agrees to pass laws that enforce the terms of the
> treaty it is not binding on the private citizen, only on the government.
>
> I am not a lawyer either, but this much seems obvious.
>
> j. andrew rogers

If you are open to counterpoint, please do read Mike Lorrey's
excellent post in this thread, I have made a first pass, liked very
much what I read, and so am continuing to read more into the
supporting links.

I commend it to you now quickly before returning to the pleasure
of reading into it again.

Mike's post provides a link to the US Constitution. There is gold
in that thar document and almost certainly at least part of the solution
to what ails us. And, like the UN Charter, it is remarkably concise.

Brett Paatsch 




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 11:36:22 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Bene Tleilaxu and your mitochondria
In-Reply-To: <7641ddc605061521462fb43edc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050625113622.92462.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

Here is the text (without figures) and I can
> send the pdf to
> anyone interested.
> 
> Questions and comments welcome.
> 
> Rafal 

     Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on
this but I have been swamped lately and I did want to
give it a thorough reading and digestion. First off,
congratulations for getting it published. Overall the
work was a great review on the mitochondrial/ROS
theory of aging. The review did change my mind about
some aspects of aging but not others. While I agree
with you that mitochondrial damage and failures of ETC
result in many of the problems associated with aging,
I think calling it THE mechanism and "clock" of aging
is overstatement.
     I do however believe that the role of
mitochondria in aging has been largely ignored by the
mainstream and it is definately A mechanism. That you
bring attention to this aspect of aging very
persuasively in your review is commendable. I also
understand that in our field, we are forced by the
system to so narrowly specialize. Thus if all our
research is, for example, focused on a single gene,
then we are forced, if we are to recieve funding, to
spin our gene as the most important gene in the
genome. So with these caveats in mind, here is where I
disagree with your argument.
     First of all, how do you distinguish between
pathological mitochondrial microheteroplasmy (MMH) and
normal variation due to polymorphism? It strikes me
that mitochodria and the cells that contain them
undergo overlapping and conjoined yet still distinct
selective evolutionary pressures. Since the turnover
rate of mitochondria seems to much higher than the
cells that contain them, it seems normal and natural
that some variation and competition would arise
between mitochondria in the same cell. But this
process should occur as prevalently in new borns as in
the elderly.
     To posit some magic "germline" mtDNA that the
cells try to maintain would suggest that some
mechanism of proof-reading of mt-DNA by nuclear DNA
would exist. Is there any evidence for this? Might
copies of mtDNA exist in some cryptic form in the
cellular genome perhaps functioning at the RNA level?
These are intersting questions your model raises.
        If as you say MMH is responsible for aging and
that this is the result of mistakes in mtDNA
replication, relative to some primordial germline
sequence, then it would stand to reason that the more
mitochondria an organism or cell has, the quicker it
should age. Thus elephants should age faster than mice
and atheletes (who have more mitochondria in their
myocytes) should age faster than non-athletes. Yet
neither of these corralaries is bourne out by the
facts.
     The most damaging aspect of your theory is that,
as you address in your paper, there is currently no
assay sensitive enough to detect the levels of MMH
that you say are relevant to aging. I have thought
about this too. Might I suggest that you try to use
DNA microarrays to adress this. Using Agilent
Technology's ink-jet type oligo spotters, it should be
possible to spot a custom microarray with many
hundreds of copies of overlapping 20-mer contigs that
cover the whole mitochondrial genome because it is so
small (16.5 kb). Then you just repeatedly hybridize
rho-DNA from some cells and discard it until you have
effectively "panned out" all the normal germline
mtDNA. Then all you should have left will be any
mutant mtDNA and any contamination you might have
introduced or carried over. Then you can directly
sequence what's left. Having some experimental
evidence would bolster your theory tremendously.      
     Now it generally accepted that the over-all
reason we age is the disposable soma hypothesis.
Briefly, this hypothesis suggests that the reason
organisms age is because evolutionary selective
pressures do not select for maintenance of the
organism's integrity for long beyond its breeding age.
 
     While I believe this hypothesis, my personal
study of the literature would suggest that when it
comes to animal models versus humans, some somas are
more disposable than others. While in mice, it could
be argued that ROS are the primary cause of aging,
this assertion no longer holds in humans who have
trillions more cells and live hundreds of times
longer. Of course in humans, ROS play a very important
role in aging but also in a host of other benign
cellular processes. We have far more safeguards
against this damage than mice do as well.
     For example, telomeres are irrelevant to aging in
mice but in humans they are one of these safeguards.
In human aging there are actually two forces at work
that give rise to the overall phenotype associated
with aging. These influences can be divided into two
categories, sub-phenotypes if you will. The first
phenotype is the ontological phenotype that is
associated with the Program Theories of aging. (i.e.
the theory that aging is based on some molecular clock
that ticks away your lifespan kind of like the way
they design cars these days to break down just after
the warranty expires.) For short I will coin the term
ontotype to describe this.
     The other major influence in human aging is the
pathological phenotype that I will refer to as the
pathotype. The pathotype is explainable by the so
called Error Theories of aging (i.e. ROS,
mitochondrial damage, lipofucin, etc.)
      That the field of aging is divided by these two
competing theories, when it seems to me obvious that
these two theories are not mutually exclusive and
could very well be simultaneously operating in the
phenomenon of aging is somewhat amusing.
      While I do think that mitochondrial
microheteroplamy may a role in the development of the
pathotype of aging, I disagree with your assertion
that it is the molecular clock that gives rise to the
ontotype of aging. The case that there is an ontotype
to aging is argued by the numerous gains of function
associated with aging. 
     These gains of function seem to be the result of
gene expression that deliberately ages us as a means
of mitigating the problems of shutting down the
developmental program that takes us from a single cell
to an adult organism. For example oncogenes are
silenced but still need to be called upon for wound
repair. Tumor supressor genes are upregulated,
telomeres shorten, and the majority of one's cells
undergo senescence. Even the wrinkled skin is a gain
of function. Skin cells do not stop producing elastin
and collagen but instead the cell secretes proteases
that chop it up. This is presumambly to allow for more
efficient immune surveilance of the epithelium. Indeed
most of the ontotype associated with aging seem to be
adaptations to protect against cancer. While cancer
itself might be thought of as part of the pathotype of
aging.
     Anyways I find myself having digressed from my
original intent of critiquing your article. To
summarize, I liked it and learned a lot from it (my
primary field is HIV research and I did not know that
nucleoside analog inhibitors of HIV also inhibit
mt-DNA synthesis as well). Your theory is good but has
holes best filled with actual supportive data. It is
definately a piece of the puzzle but not the solution
to the puzzle. Keep up the good work.
             

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 11:47:19 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoparticles linked to chronic lung diseases
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506251229590.976@zeus>
Message-ID: <20050625114719.94602.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:

> No military-type gas masks yet.
> 

I feel for you. Hopefully peak oil will hit before we
choke on our own waste. Then I can apply for my patent
and we can switch over to an alcohol based
infrastucture. :)

  

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Jun 25 14:08:24 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:08:24 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate--Reason
  Mag
In-Reply-To: <1119669633.28188@whirlwind.he.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625090114.039df790@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 08:20 PM 24/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
>Brett Paatsch wrote:
> > Can you please show me, if you are able and I do think you are, and
> > perhaps this will help you show some of your developing skills with
> > marshalling a legal arguments concisely, how it is that you have
> > concluded that "treaties that ate ratified by the US Senate are US law."
>
>
>Treaties are not a legislative action and so they are not "law".  A treaty 
>is a contract between
>governments, and does not in and of itself bind private citizens to the 
>terms of that contract.
>
>As a practical matter the governments that sign treaties are often 
>compelled to pass laws
>that reflect the terms of the contract.  The Senate could ratify treaties 
>all day, but unless the
>House of Representatives agrees to pass laws that enforce the terms of the 
>treaty it is not
>binding on the private citizen, only on the government.
>
>I am not a lawyer either, but this much seems obvious.

Contracts between governments are something to be concerned about.  Back 
when the L5 Society was a major force in defeating the Moon Treaty my wife 
and I did a lot of research on this subject.  It was published as a 3 page 
article in *Reason,* Aug. 1982.  From that article:

         "The treaty provisions that concern us are: Article VIII of the
1967 Space Treaty, which reads, "A State . . . shall retain
jurisdiction and control over such object [spacecraft] and over any
personnel thereof"; Article IV of the Rescue Agreement, which enjoins
signers to return personnel, willing or not, to the launching
authority; and Article XII of the Moon Treaty (not signed by the US
government), which declares, "States . . . shall retain jurisdiction
and control over their personnel."

         "These space treaty provisions stand in stark contrast to a
truly landmark document, the United Nations Declaration of Human
Rights (1948).  In Article 14, Section 1, it states, "Everyone has the
right to seek and enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."
Article 15, Section 2, declares, "No one shall be . . . denied the
right to change his nationality."

        "If someone were to ask for asylum in space or on the moon, the
president might ignore or rule inapplicable these fairly clear treaty
provisions--provided, of course, the president found out in time.
Obviously, this cannot be counted on.  It was more than a week before
the president found out about the Simas Kirdurka incident, and then
only through the newspapers.  The president is the only authority who
could decide some thing as drastic as suspending a treaty provision. "

http://groups.google.ca/group/sci.space.policy/msg/3654d08deee4f4f0?dmode=source&hl=en

How much water has gone under the bridge!  When we wrote that we could not 
have imagined that I would someday become a refugee.

Keith Henson

PS.  Several years later I wrote an article on memetics for 
"Reason.*   That article offended the editorial staff so intensely that the 
rancor against both the subject and me persisted for at least a decade.  A 
few years later--and with some trepidation--I submitted it to *Liberty* 
(after a personal request from a national level Libertarian candidate who 
had read and liked the article).   If anything the reaction against the 
article at *Liberty* was more intense.  The phone call from the editor 
sticks in my minds as vicious and highly emotional with no reason for the 
reaction being given at all.   To this day I don't understand why the 
article induced such a gut rejection in some Libertarians.

If anyone has insight or knowledge they could clear up a substantial 
mystery.  The article is here:

http://www.alamut.com/subj/evolution/misc/hensonMemes.html

There is a bit of a thread discussing these events here:

http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/9950.html






From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 25 14:29:21 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:21 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate
In-Reply-To: <003b01c57977$27ba7f50$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <1119669633.28188@whirlwind.he.net>
	<003b01c57977$27ba7f50$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <ee50357e05062507295ba8ec48@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/25/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> Mike's post provides a link to the US Constitution. There is gold
> in that thar document and almost certainly at least part of the solution
> to what ails us. And, like the UN Charter, it is remarkably concise.
> 


Mike's post talks about legal theory and ignores what actually happens
in practice.
(Similar to followers of religions or political systems - they want
you to look at the theory only, not to look at what actually happens
in the real world).

This paragraph struck me as a really big get out clause

> In this respect, a treaty with another nation does not prevent the
> United States government from choosing to act to enforce or protect the
> rights of its citizens if that nation is violating them, because the US
> Constitution's Bill of Rights is clearly superior to any treaty the
> Senate may ratify, nor does it prevent the US gov't from enforcing any
> other provision of the US Constitution against the claimed
> interpretation of any treaty.
>

This clause is very useful for the US. In practice it means that the
US just has to engineer some 'incident' and whoopee! they can ignore
the treaty and invade.

I don't fancy doing the research to see how many treaties have been
broken, by *all* countries, not just the US.

But the US did make hundreds of treaties with the native Indian tribes.
"They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they never
kept but one; they promised to take our land, and they took it."  --
Red Cloud, Oglala Sioux

"All warfare is based on deception." -- Sun Tzu
The US practice of using 'treaties' to deceive the enemy into defeats
goes back to the 1800s - the Indian treaties.
The white settlers would create an incident of Injuns harming whites
and blow it up into "Indian massacres" and demand the US government to
send in the cavalry to punish the 'savage murderers'.  In this way,
the white settlers killed off Indian tribes one by one until the Great
Plains was freed up.

Exactly the same technique continues into modern times. viz. the
Panama invasion, the Grenada invasion, the Puerto Rico invasion, the
Dominican Republic invasion, the Haiti invasion, the Afghanistan
invasion, the Iraq invasion. There are web sites that provide lists of
all the US armed interventions in other countries.
An 'incident' can always be found to justify the US actions (even if
the US was massing forces for months beforehand).

The problem with treaties and contracts is that the parties have to be
'equal'.  If a giant decides that you have something he wants and
makes you an offer that you can't refuse, what do you do? Say 'no' and
get wiped out? Unlikely. Instead you sign, and hope to get a little
more than the bleak alternative. If the giant decides to ignore,
cancel, withdraw from, declare it broken, etc. the treaty, then there
is nothing the little guy can do. At least signing the treaty bought
him a little time.

It is the old 'might makes right', and the victor gets to write the
history his way.


BillK


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Jun 25 14:35:44 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:35:44 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wetware vs. Hardware (was IQ vs Upload)
In-Reply-To: <42B8C886.4040308@neopax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050615230232.037db210@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20050614223412.81062.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20050615230232.037db210@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625103307.039c81e0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 03:10 AM 22/06/05 +0100, you wrote:
>Keith Henson wrote:

snip

>>I remember looking into this when it was reported.  At the time I 
>>remarked how the surface area of his brain seems to be the important parameter.
>>
>>This is consistent with William Calvin's analysis that the hexagonal 
>>spaced cortical column is the "element of computation" in brains.  I ran 
>>a computation--which is probably can be found if someone looks--assuming 
>>that each of these columns could be modeled and connected to its 
>>neighbors by a 1 cm square silicon processor.  I seem to remember it was 
>>something like 150 meters on a side square of processors to simulate a 
>>human brain this way.
>ie 22500 sq metres.
>Given Moore's Law and 25yrs that reduces to about 0.3 sq metres, or a chip 
>approx 60cm on edge.
>Or something rather more compact if we use wafer scale integration and 
>stacking.

Yeah.  It might fit inside the volume of a human skull.  Imagine that.

Keith Henson





From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Jun 25 15:09:00 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:09:00 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <200506220611.j5M6BbR20386@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625110812.039cda30@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 11:11 PM 21/06/05 -0700, you wrote:

>
>
>Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s
>
><http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html>http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html 
>

Yes.

But it is a sure thing you will find my insights depressing.

Keith Henson



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 15:32:47 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625110812.039cda30@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20050625153247.79218.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Primarily Mugabe wants to force these shantytowners out to use them to
force out more of the white farmers that remain.

--- Keith Henson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:

> At 11:11 PM 21/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s
> >
>
><http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html>http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html
> 
> >
> 
> Yes.
> 
> But it is a sure thing you will find my insights depressing.
> 
> Keith Henson
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 15:58:46 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Treaties ratified by the US Senate
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e05062507295ba8ec48@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050625155846.22730.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/25/05, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> > Mike's post provides a link to the US Constitution. There is gold
> > in that thar document and almost certainly at least part of the
> solution
> > to what ails us. And, like the UN Charter, it is remarkably
> concise.
> > 
> 
> 
> Mike's post talks about legal theory and ignores what actually
> happens in practice.

Absolutely false, Bill, you apparently did not read it carefully. I
have cited the application of several treaties to changes in US law, as
well as the Amistad case as a sterling example of conflicts between
foreign treaty and US law being resolved by the court.

> This paragraph struck me as a really big get out clause
> 
> > In this respect, a treaty with another nation does not prevent the
> > United States government from choosing to act to enforce or protect
> the
> > rights of its citizens if that nation is violating them, because
> the US
> > Constitution's Bill of Rights is clearly superior to any treaty the
> > Senate may ratify, nor does it prevent the US gov't from enforcing
> any
> > other provision of the US Constitution against the claimed
> > interpretation of any treaty.
> >
> 
> This clause is very useful for the US. In practice it means that the
> US just has to engineer some 'incident' and whoopee! they can ignore
> the treaty and invade.

It takes two to tango, Bill. WRT Panama, it took Noriega both declaring
war against the US AND killing a US military officer to cause invasion.
Neither event was 'engineered' by the US.

WRT the Grenada invasion, American medical students were put under
house arrest and essentially were being held as hostages by the Cuban
backed military junta. The US didn't 'engineer' them doing that,
either. The island had been getting infiltrated by Cuban communists for
years at the behest of the Soviet Union so the USSR could build a
bomber base there, because Grenada sits astride the main shipping lane
to the US Gulf Coast from the horn of Africa.

Puerto Rico invasion? When did this happen? Puerto Rico has been a
territory of the US since it was ceded by Spain. Do you mean the
Spanish-American War? While the USS Maine explosion was certainly a
pretext, freeing Cuba and other Spanish colonies was not a bad thing.
Spain still practiced slavery in its colonies, and our liberation of
Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Phillipines (which all became US
territories) aided in each nations development, and each was free to
pursue its own destiny (despite the efforts of some minority insurgency
groups) which is why Cuba became independent early on, the Phillipines
did so after WWII, and Puerto Rico chose to remain a US territory.

The Haiti action also involved forces from three other carribean
nations and was requested by the duly elected president of that country
in response to events that the US had no involvement in.

I am sure some websites keep extensive lists of US 'crimes', all of
which are tinged in stalinist or trotskyist communist disinformation.

The 19th century US mistreatment of native Americans (and native
American unwillingness to assimilate into US culture) is well
documented and is, like early US slavery, a drum that is regularly
beaten today by the radical left.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jun 25 17:18:14 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:18:14 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050625091405.72367.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050625091405.72367.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56CA3DAB-5FD4-480E-BE93-182F8172BC5E@mac.com>


On Jun 25, 2005, at 2:14 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> There is no fallback position. We have go through
>>>
>> with
>>
>>> it all the way.
>>>
>>
>> Baloney.  It is idiocy compounded to continue with
>> what was stupid to
>> begin with and ruinous to continue. The Iraqis would
>> largely be
>> delighted if we left.
>>
>
> No to begin a fight over so little was idiocy. To
> continue to its completion is now our only rational
> recourse. I abhor wars in general and this one in
> particular, but there is no other strategically sound
> move at this juncture.
>

Tell it to the Russians after Afghanistan.  What is our goal?  Of  
what does completion consist?  Killing until all that fight the  
occupation are dead or imprisoned?  What?

>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> The Romans had a saying which
>>> translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool
>>>
>> can
>>
>>> start a war but only the victor can decide when to
>>> stop fighting."
>>>
>>
>> Not really.  We could leave tomorrow if we liked.
>> Our military
>> strength is disproportionally large and it is an
>> occupation rather
>> than a war where both sides feel compelled to
>> continue.  The Iraqis
>> would happily stop if we were not occupying their
>> country.
>>
>
> Yes, we could pull out tomorrow if we wanted to. Then
> we would be repeating the mistakes of Britain in
> Israel/Palestine and the French in Algeria. Those two
> incidents were major victories for terrorism.

An underground resisitance to occupation nearly always resorts to  
terrorism.  It is no "victory of terrorism" if the occupier goes  
home.  It si a victory for self-determination for a people.


> Those
> two highly publicised pull-outs by industrial
> democracies from weaker nations in the face of
> terrorist attacks sent the message, "Terrorism works
> as an effective means of cowing large democratic
> military powers."

The message should be sent again and again that bullying and  
occupying a country for largely imperialistic reason is costly and a  
mistake.   Saying that right is on the side of grinding the  
resistance into the dirt is about as evil as it gets.


> Because of these mistakes by England
> and France, not to mention our own, we now have the
> likes of Bin Ladin running around.

This is utterly absurd.

>       If we pull out before Iraq's government is able
> to fend for itself, it will be spun by every terrorist
> rag in the world as a "victory for holy Islam". The
> enemy (the true enemy and not the Iraqui insurgents)
> will see this as an encouragment.

Organized terrorism has been strengthened immeasurably by our  
actions.  We are our own worse enemy.


> The ranks of Al
> Quaeda and other terrorist organizations will swell
> with pride and numbers. Then 9-11s will happen every
> year, until we are left squabling with each other in
> the ashes of our former glory like post-Atilla the Hun
> Rome.
>

We are making the ranks swell now.   Don't threaten with more  
Reichtaggs please.

>
>>> One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
>>> by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue.
>>>
>>
>> This assumes relative equals and is very much
>> inapplicable to the
>> situation at hand.
>>
>
> No it assumes that superiority is a matter of
> sometimes faulty perception until conflict happens.
> Then the resolution of the conflict itself determines
> superiority. We were considered a second rate power
> until WWII after which we became a superpower because
> we WON. That is how the hegemons of the world come and
> go. If we don't win, we are no longer superior. If are
> no longer percieved as superior, our enemies will
> close in on us. The more we fight, the more we lose
> until we really are nothing. The fight that must be
> won is the fight we are currently engaged in. The
> whole world is watching and calculating. Kim Il Jong
> is watching. We must win a decisive victory in Iraq or
> we will have to fight dozens of more wars for the same
> cause. Had we finished the fight in the first Gulf
> War, we would not have had to fight this one. This is
> the Tao of war. We cannot leave a wounded enemy alive
> and turn our back on him. If we do, then we will be
> ground beneath the chariot wheels of history.
>

Is Iraq itself our enemy?   There is no "decisive victory" in this  
kind of conflict.  If you believe there is then please explain  
exactly what it is.  The whole world is watching us do whatever the  
hell we want militarily witho or without sanction or reason.   We are  
creating more enemies than allies in Iraq and because of Iraq.
>>

>> A pity that such bright people insist on searching
>> for good excuses
>> to continue shooting ourselves in the foot.
>>
>
>      No Samantha. We shot ourselves in the foot by
> invading Iraq in the first place. Now we have to
> continue to fight so as not to lose our whole leg or
> even our life.

We will lose more by continuing than leaving now.  That lesson is  
clean]r in history also.

>      I am not searching for excuses to continue the
> fighting. I hate this war but the consequence of our
> initial invasion is that we HAVE to win it. This war
> is no longer about what what it started as. It is
> bigger than Iraq now.

If it has little or notihing to do with Iraq then we should leave.

> In some ways it is bigger than
> the U.S. now. It is now a war of democracy versus
> fundamentalist theocracy.

Need I remind you that Iraq was one of the least theocratic  
countries?  Now the theocrats are vastly strengthened by our own  
actions.   The theocrats are lose at home and running a would be  
replay of the Crusades.

> Iraq has now become the
> chosen physical nexus for a war of two great
> psychospiritual forces. Iraq is now just a token
> trophy. The true battlefield and prize at stake in
> this conflict is the minds of men and women the world
> over.

You sound like a raving End Times fan.  token trophy?  War between  
Good and Evil?  Sheesh.

>       If we pull out now and let the Islamist fundies
> take over Iraq, then Libya, Syria, and all those other
> countries will start going back to their old ways.

Sigh.


- samantha



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Jun 25 17:35:07 2005
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:35:07 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <20050625153247.79218.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625110812.039cda30@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625133117.039e36a0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>

At 08:32 AM 25/06/05 -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>Primarily Mugabe wants to force these shantytowners out to use them to
>force out more of the white farmers that remain.

Perhaps I should spell out the larger question.

Why do humans periodically kill large numbers of other humans?

If you consider the period length and the exception cases you will be half 
way to the answer.

Keith Henson

>--- Keith Henson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > At 11:11 PM 21/06/05 -0700, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Has anyone here any comment or insight into this?  s
> > >
> ><http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.h 
> tml>http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/06/21/zimbabwe.crackdown.ap/index.html
> > >
> > Yes.
> >
> > But it is a sure thing you will find my insights depressing.
> >
> > Keith Henson



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 18:45:20 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] destroying gardens?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050625133117.039e36a0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <20050625184520.79872.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Keith Henson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:

> At 08:32 AM 25/06/05 -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >Primarily Mugabe wants to force these shantytowners out to use them
> to
> >force out more of the white farmers that remain.
> 
> Perhaps I should spell out the larger question.
> 
> Why do humans periodically kill large numbers of other humans?
> 
> If you consider the period length and the exception cases you will be
> half way to the answer.

I have on occasion commented on how Europe, with its feudal traditions
of no right of the citizenry to keep and bear arms, being peaceful for
periods of time (though ridden with rampant property crime) until it
erupts in combat and genocidal frenzy. The US, and North America in
general, with its greater freedoms, higher murder rate and lower
property crime rates, saw no such eruptions of mass violence and
genocide. 

The 19th century, though, saw the ongoing conflict between US westward
expansion and native american resistance, refusal to assimilate, and
insurgency. As europe dumped its refuse populations upon US shores, the
need for land forced the westward expansion out of necessity.

War, crime, and other mass maladies, are the result of population
pressure and lack of individual liberty. Having enough space for
everyone to be truly free on their own land, free of force and
manipulation by outside groups, is a key requirement for peace and
justice. When enough people feel they are oppressed, either by their
own government, or by a foreign government or population, they will
rise up to make their demands heard.

In Zimbabwe, you have a problem where white settlers occupied much of
the best farmland, where Cecil Rhodes and his bunch disregarded land
claims of the previous occupants, herding them into work camps or into
the cities, where they were free to overpopulate and become exposed to
revolutionary ideology.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 21:53:22 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <B43701E2-9F74-4821-9240-DB6E89099AA0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050625215322.67485.qmail@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If a draft isn't necessary why does the government need a Selective Service system? Oughtn't 
ALL libertarians be opposed to Selective Service? Draft registration or any other preparation for military conscription is diametrically opposed to the entire foundation of libertarianism.




People have been saying this since before the Iraq war. Mike Badnarik
was 'guaranteeing' during the election that Bush would implement one by
January. Didn't happen. Now the left is getting all huffed up over the
fact that military recruiters have established a central database for
direct marketing recruiting materials most cost-effectively, as if they
didn't do that before (wrong). The only thing that is new now is that
the No Child Left Behind Act requires schools accepting federal aid to
supply full student lists to recruiters, whereas before recruiters had
to purchase lists from magazines and organizations that cater to
teenagers.


The impending draft is the biggest chicken-little story of this decade.


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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 22:07:55 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:07:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
In-Reply-To: <1119651795.14299@whirlwind.he.net>
Message-ID: <20050625220756.45941.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Children reading their own chosen materials at home? 
Of course non-defense spending is well over 1000% higher than defense, nevertheless we don't accept overcharging in defense contracting do we? Or mediocre but expensive VA hospitals... Or


>It makes one wonder how such remarkable literacy rates were maintained
>throughout most of the country's history sans government schools.
>cheers,
>j. andrew rogers


		
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 25 22:28:30 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] smaller govt.
In-Reply-To: <007201c57906$ff551d60$bcee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050625222830.84151.qmail@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Though defense spending is much smaller than non defense, there are hidden costs in defense; defense isn't clean, there are countless tons of residue to dispose of; foreign aid that is connected to defense, and the disembodied karma that another poster mentioned yesterday or today. But still, yes, defense spending is much lower. And it does appear defense will be the last of big government will be rid of. I accept the practical over the ideological. 
But let us have it clear on this somewhat freemarket list named extropy-chat: many libertarians tend to be more ideological than practical. 



I certainly want smaller government, much much much smaller, zero would be perfect, but pruning the Defense sector is the very last place I?d look to achieve that goal. The reason I say this is because generating an army is the most difficult challenge facing radical libertarian free marketers like me. I am certainly not saying it?s imposable, but it is difficult, I expect it will be the very last government function to be replaced by the more efficient market; so don?t be so anxious to dump the Defense department just yet, there is a huge amount of government junk and gunk and nonsense that deserves oblivion before defense.

 

John K Clark

      
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 00:38:43 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050625215322.67485.qmail@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626003844.25358.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> If a draft isn't necessary why does the government need a Selective
> Service system? Oughtn't 
> ALL libertarians be opposed to Selective Service? Draft registration
> or any other preparation for military conscription is diametrically
> opposed to the entire foundation of libertarianism.

Depends. What is the militia? It is the whole of the people, as the
founding fathers said. How does one mobilize the militia? Militia is a
libertarian concept. What is improper is using the militia, i.e. a
draft, to forcibly mobilize the militia for foreign adventures against
forces that did not attack the US or its citizens, or violate its laws
(including treaties). 

Enforcement of the laws is a time honored use of the militia, going
back to the days prior to William the Conqueror, when the English
system of constables and shire reeves was all that was needed to
mobilize the people for either law enforcement or military defense.

We don't live in the middle ages any more, though, we are not a simple
agrarian feudal society. Society is complex and our laws are complex,
and our Constitution, our highest law, recognises the legal weight of
treaty with foreign nations as law, subject only to judicial
interpretation in cases where they conflict with other law.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 04:57:53 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626003844.25358.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626045753.7191.qmail@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Your logic is impeccable, in the instance of a foreign
invasion or flagrant disregard of treaties the
pragmatic course would be to conscript those capable
of bearing arms. However I was referring to the moral
violation of the individual by the state in drafting
civilians, acceptable to statists. For a libertarian
to advocate conscription or even registering for
concription (registration is reality today) would be a
negation of the spirit if not the letter of the
libertarian creed. 
Your position is sound from the legal, pragmatic and
collective moral sense-- yet there is a little more to
it. You are tacitly admitting the state can supercede
the individual but there is no real contradiction with
you; all the same I am suggesting the individual can
in this context decisively supercede the state in the
very narrowest ethical sense. So we will have to agree
to disagree. There is no satisfactory philosophical
modus vivendi in this. Time will tell... there may be
a draft later rather than sooner. Or vice versa.


>What is the militia? It is the whole of the
> people, as the
> founding fathers said. How does one mobilize the
> militia? Militia is a
> libertarian concept. What is improper is using the
> militia, i.e. a
> draft, to forcibly mobilize the militia for foreign
> adventures against
> forces that did not attack the US or its citizens,
> or violate its laws
> (including treaties). 
> 
> Enforcement of the laws is a time honored use of the
> militia, going
> back to the days prior to William the Conqueror,
> when the English
> system of constables and shire reeves was all that
> was needed to
> mobilize the people for either law enforcement or
> military defense.
> 
> We don't live in the middle ages any more, though,
> we are not a simple
> agrarian feudal society. Society is complex and our
> laws are complex,
> and our Constitution, our highest law, recognises
> the legal weight of
> treaty with foreign nations as law, subject only to
> judicial
> interpretation in cases where they conflict with
> other law.
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of
> human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of
> slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt
> (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 		
> ____________________________________________________
> 
> Yahoo! Sports 
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> 
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



		
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun 26 07:50:21 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:50:21 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626003844.25358.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626003844.25358.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <903FF8C9-8DD6-4D94-8D93-63CA1BB13D96@mac.com>


On Jun 25, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> If a draft isn't necessary why does the government need a Selective
>> Service system? Oughtn't
>> ALL libertarians be opposed to Selective Service? Draft registration
>> or any other preparation for military conscription is diametrically
>> opposed to the entire foundation of libertarianism.
>>
>
> Depends. What is the militia? It is the whole of the people, as the
> founding fathers said. How does one mobilize the militia?

Who says that "one", e.g., government is not charged with mobilizing  
the militia by force at all.  If the people believe war is necessarly  
then ample volunteers will come forth.  If not then either you are in  
over your head or the war is not the will of the people.  The Us has  
no business forcing some of the people to risk their lives in a cause  
they do not believe in.  This is slavery of the worse sort

> Militia is a
> libertarian concept. What is improper is using the militia, i.e. a
> draft, to forcibly mobilize the militia for foreign adventures against
> forces that did not attack the US or its citizens, or violate its laws
> (including treaties).
>

It is against the principles of freedom to attempt to force people to  
act against their own self interest and preservation even IF some  
force did attack the US.  We are free people if we dare to be.  We  
aren't free provisionally.   Violate whose laws?  What kind of laws?   
There are a lot of our laws than any sane person will violate and  
even more laws that are evil and pernicious.   Should we enforce some  
of the people to enforce laws lke the one that says the government  
has the right to seize your property if they believe some other  
occupier may pay them more in taxes?   Is it proper to enslave part  
of the people to enforce these laws?  How about the ruling against  
medical marijuana?

No, it is never ever by definition proper for a government  
established to safeguard the rights of a free people to deny those  
rights and enslave any of us for any purpose whatsoever.

> Enforcement of the laws is a time honored use of the militia, going
> back to the days prior to William the Conqueror, when the English
> system of constables and shire reeves was all that was needed to
> mobilize the people for either law enforcement or military defense.

Ever hear of Posse Comitatus?    It is not an American or libertarian  
honored idea that it is fine to use the military for law enforcement.

>
> We don't live in the middle ages any more, though, we are not a simple
> agrarian feudal society. Society is complex and our laws are complex,
> and our Constitution, our highest law, recognises the legal weight of
> treaty with foreign nations as law, subject only to judicial
> interpretation in cases where they conflict with other law.

Are you sure you are a libertarian?  The freedom of the people shall  
not be abridged by a legitimate government.  An illegitimate  
government should not be supported and should be opposed.   The Bill  
Of Rights is part of the highest law.  It was expressly designed to  
keep the newly formed  government in check.   If any treaty or  
domestic law violates any of these or their intent it must to the  
maximum extent possible be treated as  null and void by free  
persons.  Complexity is no excuse for condoning enslavement.

- samantha



From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 14:00:30 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:00:30 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Corvallis Gazette-Times article on transhumanism
Message-ID: <470a3c52050626070057dec24f@mail.gmail.com>

This Corvallis Gazette-Times article on
transhumanism<http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2005/06/26/news/nation/nat05.txt>is
an example of good media coverage. Facts, ideas, and the reader is
left
free to make up her mind.
HARTFORD, Conn. - Sitting in his office at Trinity College, James Hughes 
explains his vision of a family gathering a couple of hundred years from 
now: One family member is a cyborg, another is outfitted with gills for 
living underwater. Yet another has been modified to live in a vacuum.
"But they will all consider themselves as descendants of humanity,'' he 
says.
As executive director of the World Transhumanist Association, he's one of 
the leaders in a movement that sees, in the next 50 years, a world where 
flesh fuses with mechanics and brains with circuitry. He recently published 
"Citizen Cyborg'' (Westview Press, $26.95), a book that has made waves in 
academic circles and urges the need to prepare for this future.
Transhumanism, a theory that has been kicking around for a few decades, 
envisions a "post-human'' phase where technology will bring us beyond human 
capabilities. Intelligence-boosting brain chips, extended life spans and 
even immortality are all part of this vision. It's an idea that covers a lot 
of ground. Walking canes and eyeglasses are a basic form of transhumanism. 
And then there's uploading one's mind and living as sheer consciousness on a 
computer.
The [World Transhumanist Association <http://transhumanism.org/>] was 
founded in 1997 by Nick Bostrom while he was a philosophy professor at Yale. 
Hughes says it has more than 30 chapters worldwide, including recent 
additions in Somalia and Uganda.
While transhumanism was long relegated to the scientific fringe, it has 
edged closer to the mainstream in the past few years.
"I believe part of it is that these technological possibilities, five or 10 
years ago, seemed like science fiction,'' says Bostrom, now director
of the Future
of Humanity Institute at Oxford University <http://www.oxfhi.ox.ac.uk/>.
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From jonkc at att.net  Sun Jun 26 14:40:49 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:40:49 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription.
References: <20050624215345.88444.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<B43701E2-9F74-4821-9240-DB6E89099AA0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002501c57a5d$24d08640$55ef4d0c@MyComputer>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

 

> Before 2008 there will be a draft and once 

> again some will remember I said so.  

 

If the Many World's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is true then in some parallel universe that will indeed happen, but if I was a betting man I'd say the chances are somewhat higher that President Bush will die his hair blue and make a number one gangster rap album produced by Death Row records about killing a policeman.  

 

Of course if the draft were restarted it would be a dream come true for Bush haters, politically correct liberals and tree huggers, after all, a liberal is just a conservative who's been drafted and a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.

 

John K Clark




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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 16:39:41 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626045753.7191.qmail@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626163941.59351.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Your logic is impeccable, in the instance of a foreign
> invasion or flagrant disregard of treaties the
> pragmatic course would be to conscript those capable
> of bearing arms. However I was referring to the moral
> violation of the individual by the state in drafting
> civilians, acceptable to statists. For a libertarian
> to advocate conscription or even registering for
> concription (registration is reality today) would be a
> negation of the spirit if not the letter of the
> libertarian creed. 
> Your position is sound from the legal, pragmatic and
> collective moral sense-- yet there is a little more to
> it. You are tacitly admitting the state can supercede
> the individual but there is no real contradiction with
> you; all the same I am suggesting the individual can
> in this context decisively supercede the state in the
> very narrowest ethical sense. So we will have to agree
> to disagree. There is no satisfactory philosophical
> modus vivendi in this. Time will tell... there may be
> a draft later rather than sooner. Or vice versa.
> 

I tend to distinguish "is" from "ought" rather rationally, rather than
living in the land of 'ought' that too many libertarians do while
holding fingers in their ears. One of the things about "is" is that,
being one of the people who make up the militia, who participates in
the electorate and receives benefits from the state, both of tangible
and intangible nature, benefits which all libertarians also receive
while either denying their existence due to their intangibility or
otherwise making excuses, and while engaged in contracts with the state
(i.e. drivers license, deposit insurance) as well as engaging in
commerce that enjoys pricing benefits, consumer fraud protections, etc.
we are all caught up in a web of contract with the state which we
cannot get out of unless we engage in no public commerce on the open
channels, ways, or seas. 

Being caught up in this system, which, while being onerous, burdensome,
and in some ways oppressive and confiscatory of property and rights,
one must first evaluate the alternatives in current existence and one
sees that as bad as it is, it is still one of the best around, and all
of the few others that are better would not allow our immigration
there.

This being said, one does have the possibility of changing the system
through electoral politics, as I have been engaged in the last few
years. Yet I find that my efforts are hamstrung by the fact that many
of those who would support me and my candidates have a high incidence
of refusing to vote on claimed "philosophical grounds", claiming doing
so is consent to be oppressed by the majority, yet these same persons
also do not lift a finger in the only alternative, revolution, with
excuses of not 'initiating force' on "principle". The excuse making is
pungent and indicative of the symptomatic O.D.D. predeliction for
'being right' to ones own physical or financial detriment.

So, when I hear other libertarians giving me flak for my positions,
which I have worked out from first principles and pragmatic application
to reality, I generally write it off to their ODD. I appreciate, in
this instance, your honest and open evaluation of my logic and hope you
are able to appreciate that there is a difference from how things "is"
vs. how they "ought" to be. 

So long as there is tyranny in the world, there will be rational
excuses for statists to maintain powerful states, to 'protect' the rest
of us from the boogeymen, as well as ourselves. The fear of tyranny
from without will always convince the majority to accept 'temporary'
tyranny from within, and so long as those who cherish liberty make
excuses for not revolting, they lack the moral authority to disparage
those who work against the state via legitimate means, or who use the
state to destroy tyranny elsewhere.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 17:01:45 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <903FF8C9-8DD6-4D94-8D93-63CA1BB13D96@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> On Jun 25, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >
> >
> > Depends. What is the militia? It is the whole of the people, as the
> > founding fathers said. How does one mobilize the militia?
> 
> Who says that "one", e.g., government is not charged with mobilizing 
> the militia by force at all.  If the people believe war is necessarly
> then ample volunteers will come forth.  If not then either you are in
> over your head or the war is not the will of the people.  The Us has 
> no business forcing some of the people to risk their lives in a cause
> they do not believe in.  This is slavery of the worse sort.

Is forcing someone to pay for their negative externalities "slavery"? I
think not, nor do any rational libertarian thinkers (like Friedman,
Rothbard, etc). Many a polluter will claim their pollution is not
harming others and refuse to pay for their damage.

Those who refuse to vote against promoters of bad foreign policies here
commit a negative externality, a sin of omission (i.e. voting for
politicians who treat terrorism as 'a crime' to be prosecuted, or
refusing to vote). Those who make excuses for and apologies for foreign
tyrants who commit great evils and injustices, and paint our own state
as a greater evil (as Chomsky, et al do) also commit a negative
externality. 

The above logic, however, only applies to libertarians. Statists cannot
enjoy its benefits because they do not believe in it. Statists, being
statists, initiate force against others 24/7/365. They accept as a
given that the state has a right to use its power to make people do
things they do not want to do, generally because the state was
popularly elected. People who believe in statism of any form therefore
do not have a right to object to a draft, or refuse to be drafted. They
have consented by their willing agreement to use force unjustly against
their fellow citizen, in confiscating income, land, or lives to serve
their own needs (subsidized housing, crops, disaster protection, drug
wars, etc) to have the same done to themselves by the state. Thus, no
statist can rationally object to being drafted into public service of
any kind.

> 
> > Enforcement of the laws is a time honored use of the militia, going
> > back to the days prior to William the Conqueror, when the English
> > system of constables and shire reeves was all that was needed to
> > mobilize the people for either law enforcement or military defense.
> 
> Ever hear of Posse Comitatus?    It is not an American or libertarian
> honored idea that it is fine to use the military for law enforcement.

Posse Comitatus is a law that dates from the post-Civil War
reconstruction era, which was passed along with a number of Jim Crow
laws to protect locals intent on killing and lynching uppity freed
slaves from being pursued, caught, and prosecuted by federal forces.

> 
> >
> > We don't live in the middle ages any more, though, we are not a
> simple
> > agrarian feudal society. Society is complex and our laws are
> complex,
> > and our Constitution, our highest law, recognises the legal weight
> of
> > treaty with foreign nations as law, subject only to judicial
> > interpretation in cases where they conflict with other law.
> 
> Are you sure you are a libertarian?  The freedom of the people shall 
> not be abridged by a legitimate government.  An illegitimate  
> government should not be supported and should be opposed.   The Bill 
> Of Rights is part of the highest law.  It was expressly designed to  
> keep the newly formed  government in check.   If any treaty or  
> domestic law violates any of these or their intent it must to the  
> maximum extent possible be treated as  null and void by free  
> persons.  Complexity is no excuse for condoning enslavement.

No, it isn't. However, all real libertarians believe in contract law.
If you engage in contract, in commerce, you are bound by the terms you
operate by. If you commit negative externalities against others, you
also can be forced to compensate for damages, even by indenturement.
Just compensatory indenturement is not slavery.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 26 17:18:56 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:18:56 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BEE380.2080702@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>commit a negative externality, a sin of omission (i.e. voting for
>politicians who treat terrorism as 'a crime' to be prosecuted, or
>refusing to vote). Those who make excuses for and apologies for foreign
>  
>
Er... terrorism *is* a crime. It's only in the US where it generates an 
hysterical response.
Treating it as a crime is how we defeated the IRA in NI.
We didn't do it by invading the 'supporters of terrorism' ie Eire and 
the US.
We used soldiers to make the job of the IRA far more difficult esp 
during attempted execution of terrorist offences, but for the most part 
we simply sent the police around and arrested the perps, put them on 
trial and sent them to prison.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 24/06/2005



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Jun 26 17:18:55 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:18:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626171855.91623.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>

Japan is running low on workers.  They're putting pressure on the
worker-producers (increased benefits for having children) and maybe
considering allowing much more immigration although that's unlikely for
political reasons...but what they're really getting serious about is
robotics, so they can build more workers.  Better and more widely used
robotics has the potential to be a permanent solution to their problem,
not to mention it has other benefits we can take advantage of.

America is running low on soldiers.  They're putting pressure on the
soldier-producers (recruitment drives and related measures) and maybe
considering re-implementing a draft although that's unlikely for
political reasons...but what they're really getting serious about is
robotics, so they can build more soldiers.  Better and more widely used
robotics has the potential to be a permanent solution to their problem,
not to mention it has other benefits we can take advantage of.

Same problem.  Same logic.  Same solution.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Jun 26 17:30:57 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:30:57 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626170145.87811.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <93365673-3AB1-4EA6-A6CD-21847779313A@mac.com>


On Jun 26, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 25, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depends. What is the militia? It is the whole of the people, as the
>>> founding fathers said. How does one mobilize the militia?
>>>
>>
>> Who says that "one", e.g., government is not charged with mobilizing
>> the militia by force at all.  If the people believe war is necessarly
>> then ample volunteers will come forth.  If not then either you are in
>> over your head or the war is not the will of the people.  The Us has
>> no business forcing some of the people to risk their lives in a cause
>> they do not believe in.  This is slavery of the worse sort.
>>
>
> Is forcing someone to pay for their negative externalities  
> "slavery"? I
> think not, nor do any rational libertarian thinkers (like Friedman,
> Rothbard, etc). Many a polluter will claim their pollution is not
> harming others and refuse to pay for their damage.
>

Iraq is hardly my negative externality.  Neither are most of the  
foolish entanglements of politicians.  I did not agree to any such  
contract and please do not trot out the tripe that I agreed just by  
being born here.   The above has nothing to do with the question.

> Those who refuse to vote against promoters of bad foreign policies  
> here
> commit a negative externality, a sin of omission (i.e. voting for
> politicians who treat terrorism as 'a crime' to be prosecuted, or
> refusing to vote). Those who make excuses for and apologies for  
> foreign
> tyrants who commit great evils and injustices, and paint our own state
> as a greater evil (as Chomsky, et al do) also commit a negative
> externality.
>

Bullshit.  It is not my duty to attempt to babysit every busybody  
politician on the planet.

> The above logic, however, only applies to libertarians. Statists  
> cannot
> enjoy its benefits because they do not believe in it. Statists, being
> statists, initiate force against others 24/7/365. They accept as a
> given that the state has a right to use its power to make people do
> things they do not want to do, generally because the state was
> popularly elected. People who believe in statism of any form therefore
> do not have a right to object to a draft, or refuse to be drafted.  
> They
> have consented by their willing agreement to use force unjustly  
> against
> their fellow citizen, in confiscating income, land, or lives to serve
> their own needs (subsidized housing, crops, disaster protection, drug
> wars, etc) to have the same done to themselves by the state. Thus, no
> statist can rationally object to being drafted into public service of
> any kind.
>

Even statists have the right to object to their lives being spent for  
nothing of any real import.
>
>>
>>
>>> Enforcement of the laws is a time honored use of the militia, going
>>> back to the days prior to William the Conqueror, when the English
>>> system of constables and shire reeves was all that was needed to
>>> mobilize the people for either law enforcement or military defense.
>>>
>>
>> Ever hear of Posse Comitatus?    It is not an American or libertarian
>> honored idea that it is fine to use the military for law enforcement.
>>
>
> Posse Comitatus is a law that dates from the post-Civil War
> reconstruction era, which was passed along with a number of Jim Crow
> laws to protect locals intent on killing and lynching uppity freed
> slaves from being pursued, caught, and prosecuted by federal forces.
>

That is hardly an exhaustive analysis.  It is a very good idea not to  
sic a nation's troops on tis own citizens.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> We don't live in the middle ages any more, though, we are not a
>>>
>> simple
>>
>>> agrarian feudal society. Society is complex and our laws are
>>>
>> complex,
>>
>>> and our Constitution, our highest law, recognises the legal weight
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> treaty with foreign nations as law, subject only to judicial
>>> interpretation in cases where they conflict with other law.
>>>
>>
>> Are you sure you are a libertarian?  The freedom of the people shall
>> not be abridged by a legitimate government.  An illegitimate
>> government should not be supported and should be opposed.   The Bill
>> Of Rights is part of the highest law.  It was expressly designed to
>> keep the newly formed  government in check.   If any treaty or
>> domestic law violates any of these or their intent it must to the
>> maximum extent possible be treated as  null and void by free
>> persons.  Complexity is no excuse for condoning enslavement.
>>
>
> No, it isn't. However, all real libertarians believe in contract law.
> If you engage in contract, in commerce, you are bound by the terms you
> operate by. If you commit negative externalities against others, you
> also can be forced to compensate for damages, even by indenturement.
> Just compensatory indenturement is not slavery.

Their are no pertinent "externalites" in this case.

- samantha
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 17:59:57 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626171855.91623.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626175957.15298.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> Japan is running low on workers.  They're putting pressure on the
> worker-producers (increased benefits for having children) and maybe
> considering allowing much more immigration although that's unlikely
> for
> political reasons...but what they're really getting serious about is
> robotics, so they can build more workers.  Better and more widely
> used
> robotics has the potential to be a permanent solution to their
> problem,
> not to mention it has other benefits we can take advantage of.
> 
> America is running low on soldiers.  They're putting pressure on the
> soldier-producers (recruitment drives and related measures) and maybe
> considering re-implementing a draft although that's unlikely for
> political reasons...but what they're really getting serious about is
> robotics, so they can build more soldiers.  Better and more widely
> used
> robotics has the potential to be a permanent solution to their
> problem,
> not to mention it has other benefits we can take advantage of.
> 
> Same problem.  Same logic.  Same solution.

Quite so, Adrian, excellent of you to point this out. I'd like to point
out also that there are absolutely NO robot control laws in existence
at the current time. This is a golden age to build your own equipment
(expandable and upgradable, of course) so that your own robot army gets
grandfathered when the busybodies get around to promoting anti-robot
hate propaganda.

When the stormtroopers come to your door to take your toys away, you
will have your own stormtroopers to meet them head on. All those who
complain that gun owners can't fight against a military with jet
fighters is sorely wrong, if those gun owners have their robot armies...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 18:04:22 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <42BEE380.2080702@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050626180422.2233.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> >commit a negative externality, a sin of omission (i.e. voting for
> >politicians who treat terrorism as 'a crime' to be prosecuted, or
> >refusing to vote). Those who make excuses for and apologies for
> foreign
> >  
> >
> Er... terrorism *is* a crime. It's only in the US where it generates
> an hysterical response.

Terrorism is a *war crime*. As such, it must be fought against by
martial tactics and perpetrators prosecuted as *War criminal*, i.e.
under the Geneva Conventions and the UCMJ.

> Treating it as a crime is how we defeated the IRA in NI.

Bull. Britain used very heavy and heinous counterinsurgency tactics on
a par with Chile, Peru, etc. that included assasinations, torture,
kidnappings. The IRA also wore out public support with too extreme
atrocities.

> We didn't do it by invading the 'supporters of terrorism' ie Eire and
> the US.

Of course, you were occupying northern Ireland with the willful consent
of the entire populace, weren't you?


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 26 18:12:13 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:12:13 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626180422.2233.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626180422.2233.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BEEFFD.6000409@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>commit a negative externality, a sin of omission (i.e. voting for
>>>politicians who treat terrorism as 'a crime' to be prosecuted, or
>>>refusing to vote). Those who make excuses for and apologies for
>>>      
>>>
>>foreign
>>    
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Er... terrorism *is* a crime. It's only in the US where it generates
>>an hysterical response.
>>    
>>
>
>Terrorism is a *war crime*. As such, it must be fought against by
>martial tactics and perpetrators prosecuted as *War criminal*, i.e.
>under the Geneva Conventions and the UCMJ.
>
>  
>
It is if you want to lose the war.

>>Treating it as a crime is how we defeated the IRA in NI.
>>    
>>
>
>Bull. Britain used very heavy and heinous counterinsurgency tactics on
>a par with Chile, Peru, etc. that included assasinations, torture,
>kidnappings. The IRA also wore out public support with too extreme
>atrocities.
>
>  
>
Not so. Those tactics, including internement without trial, were used in 
the 1970s and found to be counterproductive. Now the US is learning the 
same lessons.

>>We didn't do it by invading the 'supporters of terrorism' ie Eire and
>>the US.
>>    
>>
>
>Of course, you were occupying northern Ireland with the willful consent
>of the entire populace, weren't you?
>  
>
No - a majority is sufficient.
BTW, does every single US citizen willfully consent to be ruled by the 
US govt?
And as a matter of history, NI has been part of the UK for longer than 
the US has existed.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Jun 26 19:15:24 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:15:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626175957.15298.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626191524.61851.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'd like to
> point
> out also that there are absolutely NO robot control laws in existence
> at the current time. This is a golden age to build your own equipment
> (expandable and upgradable, of course) so that your own robot army
> gets
> grandfathered when the busybodies get around to promoting anti-robot
> hate propaganda.

Technically, an armed robot will fall under weapons laws.  It doesn't
matter if there's a robotic trigger: a gun is a gun (although probably
a unique model of gun, so laws against specific models of guns, rather
than classifying by properties or functions, might not cover your robot
soldier).

> When the stormtroopers come to your door to take your toys away, you
> will have your own stormtroopers to meet them head on. All those who
> complain that gun owners can't fight against a military with jet
> fighters is sorely wrong, if those gun owners have their robot
> armies...

More to the point: a jet fighter has a hard time arresting people,
taking cities, et cetera.  That falls to the infantry, as it always
has...and it is there that the military has been finding particular
reluctance to recruitment.  Many of the robots there are also, and
possibly more profitably, also marketable to law enforcement.  (That's
a hint if you want to google for what's already available, and thus
what to watch out for if you want to worry about these things.)


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 19:20:50 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <56CA3DAB-5FD4-480E-BE93-182F8172BC5E@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Tell it to the Russians after Afghanistan.  What is
> our goal?  Of  
> what does completion consist?  Killing until all
> that fight the  
> occupation are dead or imprisoned?  What?

I agree with you that Iraq has the pontential to
become our Afghanistan or another Vietnam. Time is not
on our side in this venture. An enlightened strategy
would consist of a concise set of military objectives
that ended the conflict quickly and decisively without
a minimal amount of lives lost on either side and
minimal collateral damage. Killing ALL the insurgents
is definately NOT the answer. Flushing out the leaders
of the insurgents and killing them and then offering
to buy all the rest of the insurgents' weapons might
be. Such is hard to tell. I am not the field
commander. I don't have access to his on the ground
intel nor do I have a reliable assessment of the
disposition of the enemy's forces. 

> An underground resisitance to occupation nearly
> always resorts to  
> terrorism.  It is no "victory of terrorism" if the
> occupier goes  
> home.  It si a victory for self-determination for a
> people.

      That is exactly what we are trying to do there
now is give those people self determination. There are
Iraqis that want self-determination. These are the
Iraqis that risked their lives to vote in this last
election. These are the courageous Iraqi cops (hands
down the most dangerous job in the world today) that
are being captured, tortured, and shot en-masse by
your so-called underground resistance. The insurgents
are misled into thinking that they are fighting to
drive out the foreign invaders but what they are
really trying to do is topple the fledgling democracy
that has been formed by the Iraqis with our guns but
THEIR votes. That is why more Iraqis are dying by the
hand of your underground resistance than are American
troops. Our troops are defending liberty yet again but
this time it is not ours, it is the liberty of our
defeated opponents.
     This might be an expensive proposition but will
not be a waste of money, unless we fail.

> The message should be sent again and again that
> bullying and  
> occupying a country for largely imperialistic reason
> is costly and a  
> mistake.   Saying that right is on the side of
> grinding the  
> resistance into the dirt is about as evil as it
> gets.

     Samantha, your idea of occupation is one that is
no longer valid when it applies to American troops.
American soldiers are, for the most part, good kind
people. They are not vikings. They do not rape and
pillage the conquered. Every country that America has
occupied short of France has loved us for it. Our
troops bring rule of law and spend lots of money in
the local businesses.

 
> 
> >       If we pull out before Iraq's government is
> able
> > to fend for itself, it will be spun by every
> terrorist
> > rag in the world as a "victory for holy Islam".
> The
> > enemy (the true enemy and not the Iraqui
> insurgents)
> > will see this as an encouragment.
> 
> Organized terrorism has been strengthened
> immeasurably by our  
> actions.  We are our own worse enemy.

     Organized terrorism has been strengthened a
little, yes, but it has also been drawn out into the
open and into the range of the guns of the most
powerful military on this planet. This had to be done
sooner or later. We have to stabilize the Middle East
somehow. We picked the easiest country that we could
to put a huge military presence in the region. Would
you suggest, we withdraw from Iraq and attack Syria or
Iran? Would you rather we occupied Jerusalem? These
options would cost us far more dearly than staying the
course in Iraq. But the benefit would remain the same.
     I guess you could call it the bug-light manuever.
We bait the terrorists into attacking our troops
rather than our civilians and we kill them one by one.
The effect will not be immediate but sooner or later
our backyard will be relatively free of bugs. I would
rather fight this battle in Iraq than on the streets
of New York. 

> 
> We are making the ranks swell now.   Don't threaten
> with more  
> Reichtaggs please.
> 
Samantha, have you read Bin Ladin's letters? Do you
know what Jihad means? It means that they want us all
to convert to Islam and put their clerics in charge of
our lives or they will kill us. There is no diplomatic
solution to such an ultimatum. So what if that's a
laughable threat, THEY take it seriously and therefore
so do I. The biggest trap we can fall into is to allow
ourselves to underestimate them. I used to believe the
WTC/Reichstagg conspiracy theory. But when the Bush
administartion failed to produce Bin Ladin in the lead
up to and since the 2004 election, I came to the
conclusion that the U.S. Government was not involved.
Then I noticed that most of the literature on such
conspiracy theories were sourced in other countries
like Germany, France, and Canada. Countries that have
a vested interest in discrediting Bush.
     No American President no matter how slick his
willy or empty his ten gallon hat would EVER order
such an atrocity. And if he did, the Secret Service
men guarding him would shoot him down themselves.

> 
> Is Iraq itself our enemy?   There is no "decisive
> victory" in this  
> kind of conflict.  If you believe there is then
> please explain  
> exactly what it is.  The whole world is watching us
> do whatever the  
> hell we want militarily witho or without sanction or
> reason.   We are  
> creating more enemies than allies in Iraq and
> because of Iraq.

Iraq is not the enemy any more. Now they are an orphan
that needs protection. Too many times in the past the
inherent flakiness of a foreign policy that changes
every 4-8 years has caused us to topple governments
and allow whoever has the will to power to fill the
vacuum. We have messed up whole sections of the world
by doing this. Let's do it right this time so that we
don't have to do it again. There is a decisive victory
to be had in this conflict. It is the stabilization
and integration of the middle east with the rest of
the world. In a world with nukes, biotechnology, and
soon nanotechnology, we can't afford to have even one
percent of the world ideologically trapped in the
dark-ages.



The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 26 19:36:08 2005
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:36:08 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Japanese Robot Security
Message-ID: <ee50357e0506261236c6c1fa9@mail.gmail.com>

<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8330600/>

Updated: 9:54 a.m. ET June 23, 2005
TOKYO - Burglars beware, robot guards are here.

In an idea straight out of science fiction, robots could soon begin
patrolling Japanese offices, shopping malls and banks to keep them
safe from intruders.  Equipped with a camera and sensors, the
"Guardrobo D1", developed by Japanese security firm Sohgo Security
Services Co., is designed to patrol along pre-programmed paths and
keep an eye out for signs of trouble.

and ---

<http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/06/02/roborior.ap/>

Roborior decorates and guards your home
Thursday, June 2, 2005 Posted: 1609 GMT (0009 HKT)

TOKYO, Japan (AP) -- It looks like a watermelon-sized eyeball on
wheels that glows in hues of purple, blue and orange while gurgling
with whimsical buzzes and rings. But the new Roborior gadget isn't
just interior decor.

It's also a virtual guard dog. It sports a digital camera, infrared
sensors and videophone capability so absent homeowners can be notified
of intruders.

------------

No guns yet, but.....

What if you come home drunk and the house robot shoots you?  :)
Nearly as bad as a wife!  :) :)

BillK


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 26 19:43:53 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:43:53 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BF0579.3040304@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Tell it to the Russians after Afghanistan.  What is
>>our goal?  Of  
>>what does completion consist?  Killing until all
>>that fight the  
>>occupation are dead or imprisoned?  What?
>>    
>>
>
>I agree with you that Iraq has the pontential to
>become our Afghanistan or another Vietnam. Time is not
>on our side in this venture. An enlightened strategy
>would consist of a concise set of military objectives
>that ended the conflict quickly and decisively without
>a minimal amount of lives lost on either side and
>minimal collateral damage. Killing ALL the insurgents
>is definately NOT the answer. Flushing out the leaders
>of the insurgents and killing them and then offering
>to buy all the rest of the insurgents' weapons might
>be. Such is hard to tell. I am not the field
>commander. I don't have access to his on the ground
>intel nor do I have a reliable assessment of the
>disposition of the enemy's forces. 
>  
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4623507.stm
"US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld confirms media reports that US 
officials have been having talks with Iraqi rebels"
That follows on from Bush's "withdrawal with honor" speech a few days ago.
More deja vu...

For a quote of what it's like on the ground, a report from 
sci.military.moderated:

 Marine Sgt. Garrett A. Barton, now based at Camp Lejeune, N.C.,
says Marines need more realistic training, have equipment that's too
heavy, and need better-penetrating armaments, such as armor-piercing
rounds, to use against Islamist car bombers.

"A firefight in a MOUT environment against drugged-up insurgents is not
the place to discover Pfc. Smith needs to work on his shoulder pressure
and manipulation of the [testing and evaluation]. This is life and
death. The average grunt is swamped with weight," he said. Marines
carry gear and ammunition that include flak jackets, Kevlar helmets,
two ceramic plates, M-16s with seven magazines, grenades, radios,
water, chow, night-vision equipment and more. Ounces equal pounds, and
pounds equal pain. This is not good when Marines need to move quickly
in a combat situation, and the extreme weight reduces their fluidity.
As for weapons, "the M-16 is prone to jams. I can personally attest
that I kept my weapon properly cleaned and lubed yet within ten minutes
I had two jams ... in Al Fallujah. The M-16 round also is too fast, too
small and too stabilized. It cannot compete with the 7.62 fired by
Warsaw Pact weapons such as AK-47s. He has never seen armor-piercing
rounds for his M-240G medium machine gun. Our current enemies like to
use [car bombs]. Personally, I would feel more comfortable shooting at
a vehicle laden with explosives if I had armor-piercing rounds. Troops
also need more powerful hand grenades. The insurgents in Iraq like to
inject themselves with adrenaline. The casualty radius of our current
grenades is insufficient. Sgt. Barton concluded his "grunt wish list,"
which was sent to the Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory in Quantico,
Va., saying he tried not to be too critical, knowing current resources
are limited. But he noted: "Any improvement is a big step in our
capabilities."

See Vietnam era criticism of M16 (M4) versus AK47 for more deja vu and 
lessons not learned..

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 20:15:32 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42BF0579.3040304@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050626201532.1815.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:


> More deja vu...
> 
>  Marine Sgt. Garrett A. Barton, now based at Camp
. The
> insurgents in Iraq like to
> inject themselves with adrenaline. The casualty
> radius of our current
> grenades is insufficient.

You aren't kidding, Dirk. That's deja vu way back to
the middle ages. During the Crusades a secretive
Muslim cleric called the Old Man in the Mountain would
send hash smoking village youths called Hashishins on
suicide missions down into Templar camps armed with
nothing but scimitars to slaughter them in their
sleep. So now its adrenaline. Arguably more effective
than pot on a suicide mission. Incidently Hashishin is
where the English word assassin originates.
    

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From dirk at neopax.com  Sun Jun 26 21:13:48 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:13:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626210447.20943.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626210447.20943.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42BF1A8C.90709@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Bull. Britain used very heavy and heinous counterinsurgency tactics
>>>      
>>>
>>on
>>    
>>
>>>a par with Chile, Peru, etc. that included assasinations, torture,
>>>kidnappings. The IRA also wore out public support with too extreme
>>>atrocities.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Not so. Those tactics, including internement without trial, were used
>>in the 1970s and found to be counterproductive. Now the US is
>>    
>>
>learning
>  
>
>>the same lessons.
>>    
>>
>
>Ah, so what you are saying is that the British governments SURRENDER
>was what won the war? That sounds so incredibly....... French.
>  
>
Let's see now...
The IRA fought for a united Ireland.
They don't have one, or the promise of one, but have given up 'the armed 
struggle'.
Sounds like victory for Britain to me.
But then, with Rambo et al I expect you Americans think victory looks 
like Vietnam.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 26 23:57:28 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626180422.2233.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050626235728.16485.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Anyhow, the 'only' problem you have is individual conscience and free will. You can negate free will by incarcerating a draft resistor, but you cannot broach the conscience-- unless by hideous torture.

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 00:19:23 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:19:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626235728.16485.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627001923.52978.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyhow, the 'only' problem you have is individual conscience and free
> will. You can negate free will by incarcerating a draft resistor, but
> you cannot broach the conscience-- unless by hideous torture.

Well, no, the state can simply kill, as they have done in the past.
That is the sort of force you play with when you are a willing statist,
you shouldn't be surprised when turnaround comes to point its gun at
you. That is the system you voted for, the police state. A willing
statist does not have a concience with which to validly object to being drafted.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 00:27:43 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050626171855.91623.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627002743.68769.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> America is running low on soldiers.  They're putting
> pressure on the
> soldier-producers (recruitment drives and related
> measures) and maybe
> considering re-implementing a draft although that's
> unlikely for
> political reasons...but what they're really getting
> serious about is
> robotics, so they can build more soldiers.  Better
> and more widely used
> robotics has the potential to be a permanent
> solution to their problem,
> not to mention it has other benefits we can take
> advantage of.
> 
> Same problem.  Same logic.  Same solution.

Yes but while robot soldiers would be fine in a search
and destroy mission or a pitched battle, they would be
horrible for the mission in Iraq. Our mission in Iraq
currently is more like humanitarian aid than war. We
are not there to kill people and break things. We are
there to build a democracy. I don't think the
Terminator to be quite the olive branch we want to
extend to the Iraqi people right now.
  

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 27 00:26:34 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:26:34 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>


On Jun 26, 2005, at 12:20 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>       That is exactly what we are trying to do there
> now is give those people self determination.

No, we aren't.  You can give self-determination while occupying the  
country.  Bringing democracy and the rest is another ad hoc excuse  
for our actions.

> There are
> Iraqis that want self-determination. These are the
> Iraqis that risked their lives to vote in this last
> election. These are the courageous Iraqi cops (hands
> down the most dangerous job in the world today) that
> are being captured, tortured, and shot en-masse by
> your so-called underground resistance.


If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and  
consider those cops turncoats to their own people.



> The insurgents
> are misled into thinking that they are fighting to
> drive out the foreign invaders but what they are
> really trying to do is topple the fledgling democracy
> that has been formed by the Iraqis with our guns but
> THEIR votes.

To you think this Iraqi government being so slowly bolted together  
represents real democracy rather than being in large part our own  
puppets?  I believe there is ample reason to distrust this so-called  
democracy and so-called Iraqi government.

> That is why more Iraqis are dying by the
> hand of your underground resistance than are American
> troops.

It is not "my" resistance.  It is theirs.

> Our troops are defending liberty yet again but
> this time it is not ours, it is the liberty of our
> defeated opponents.

Our opponents?  We decided to invade for bogus reasons a people that  
were not remotely "our opponents".

>      This might be an expensive proposition but will
> not be a waste of money, unless we fail.
>

It is a total waste of money and lives and credibility.  It is rotten  
to the core despite the rose colored glasses you insist on viewing it  
through.


>
>> The message should be sent again and again that
>> bullying and
>> occupying a country for largely imperialistic reason
>> is costly and a
>> mistake.   Saying that right is on the side of
>> grinding the
>> resistance into the dirt is about as evil as it
>> gets.
>>
>
>      Samantha, your idea of occupation is one that is
> no longer valid when it applies to American troops.
> American soldiers are, for the most part, good kind
> people. They are not vikings. They do not rape and
> pillage the conquered. Every country that America has
> occupied short of France has loved us for it. Our
> troops bring rule of law and spend lots of money in
> the local businesses.

Good kind people?  Read the accounts of the Iraqi people attempting  
to flee Falujah.  Go check out the stories and pictures from Abu  
Gharib again.  Good kind people no doubt were part of the German  
occupation of France also.   I am sputtering I am so amazed by such a  
statement.

>>
>> Organized terrorism has been strengthened
>> immeasurably by our
>> actions.  We are our own worse enemy.
>>
>
>      Organized terrorism has been strengthened a
> little, yes, but it has also been drawn out into the
> open and into the range of the guns of the most
> powerful military on this planet.

Insurgents defending their homeland are not automatically terrorists.

> This had to be done
> sooner or later. We have to stabilize the Middle East
> somehow.

By turning it into American Empire?

> We picked the easiest country that we could
> to put a huge military presence in the region. Would
> you suggest, we withdraw from Iraq and attack Syria or
> Iran?

I suggest we withdraw militarily from the region and come home to  
spend the money on nuclear and other energy alternatives.  That would  
be much more sane.


> Would you rather we occupied Jerusalem? These
> options would cost us far more dearly than staying the
> course in Iraq. But the benefit would remain the same.
>

I would rather we not occupy any place in the region.

>      I guess you could call it the bug-light manuever.
> We bait the terrorists into attacking our troops
> rather than our civilians and we kill them one by one.

Do you actually believe this nonsense?

>
>>
>> We are making the ranks swell now.   Don't threaten
>> with more
>> Reichtaggs please.
>>
>>
> Samantha, have you read Bin Ladin's letters? Do you
> know what Jihad means?

Sure.  I know what the words of many madmen who draw power through  
the mistakes and sins of their enemies mean. That doesn't mean that  
there is any real modern jihad that has a prayer of working.  But if  
you want to go more strongly toward jihad then show the Middle East  
countries that the supposed exemplar of modern, rational, free and  
secular ways is an invader who claims the right to attack at will.

> It means that they want us all
> to convert to Islam and put their clerics in charge of
> our lives or they will kill us.

We have strengthened the hands of the theocrats as we have made the  
alternative much less palatable.

> There is no diplomatic
> solution to such an ultimatum.

We are the ones giving military ultimatums in the region.

> So what if that's a
> laughable threat, THEY take it seriously and therefore
> so do I. The biggest trap we can fall into is to allow
> ourselves to underestimate them. I used to believe the
> WTC/Reichstagg conspiracy theory.

It is pretty obvious that the official story is full of holes.

> But when the Bush
> administartion failed to produce Bin Ladin in the lead
> up to and since the 2004 election, I came to the
> conclusion that the U.S. Government was not involved.

Why would we produce such an effective agent?

> Then I noticed that most of the literature on such
> conspiracy theories were sourced in other countries
> like Germany, France, and Canada. Countries that have
> a vested interest in discrediting Bush.

I don't think so.  Most of what I read was home grown.  I also drew  
my own conclusions from the events as recounted from multiple sources  
including the official ones.


>      No American President no matter how slick his
> willy or empty his ten gallon hat would EVER order
> such an atrocity. And if he did, the Secret Service
> men guarding him would shoot him down themselves.
>

Really.  Check out FDR on Pearl Harbor.  Check out what was proposed  
by the military to fake Cuban terrorism on US soil and citizens  
during the Kennedy administration.  What makes you think any such  
conspiracy would be visible to Secret Service agents?


>
>>
>> Is Iraq itself our enemy?   There is no "decisive
>> victory" in this
>> kind of conflict.  If you believe there is then
>> please explain
>> exactly what it is.  The whole world is watching us
>> do whatever the
>> hell we want militarily witho or without sanction or
>> reason.   We are
>> creating more enemies than allies in Iraq and
>> because of Iraq.
>>
>
> Iraq is not the enemy any more. Now they are an orphan
> that needs protection. Too many times in the past the
> inherent flakiness of a foreign policy that changes
> every 4-8 years has caused us to topple governments
> and allow whoever has the will to power to fill the
> vacuum. We have messed up whole sections of the world
> by doing this. Let's do it right this time so that we
> don't have to do it again.

So this time our unjustified meddling will produce good and balanced  
results eh?  This is insanity, expecting different results from the  
same actions that have brought ruin before.

> There is a decisive victory
> to be had in this conflict. It is the stabilization
> and integration of the middle east with the rest of
> the world.

Really?  Do say exactly what this consists of and how we will know  
when the job is done.  What "rest of the world"?  The world is pretty  
diverse.

> In a world with nukes, biotechnology, and
> soon nanotechnology, we can't afford to have even one
> percent of the world ideologically trapped in the
> dark-ages.

Then we better deal with our own fundamentalist crazies at home.   
They are much more directly dangerous to our way of live.


- samantha


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Mon Jun 27 01:00:00 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:00 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>
Message-ID: <015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

> If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and  
> consider those cops turncoats to their own people.

Samantha, like you I am concerned for the Iraqi's but unlike you
I am not a citizen of the United States of America. 

Isn't the Constitution of the United States of America, every last
clause of it, *yours*?

Do you think you own fully enough what is *yours*? Do you
understand the powerful social system that is your inheritance
and at your disposal and has as its basis the US Constitution?

Please read Mike's post that points out that treaties duly ratified
are part of US law. I would like to discuss it and I would like
to discuss it with you as well. 

Before I return to my planned days work let me make one final
point Samantha. "Believing" was what the US President and his
allies claimed to be doing when they went into Iraq to find 
weapons of mass destruction. 

Believing at least strongly suggests a faith based view and 
professing belief in an emotionally charged discussion is like 
calling for others, perhaps even followers, to  answer with their
hearts and not be concerned much with the hesitancy that might
be the good counsel of their heads.  

One day I hope you might choose to express your moral 
concerns, your humanity and your convictions without invoking
"believing". 

Head and heart should proceed together. We have seen what
happens when they do not. 

Your words are yours to choose. 

Regards, 
Brett Paatsch



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 27 01:11:13 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050627002743.68769.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627011113.25154.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes but while robot soldiers would be fine in a search
> and destroy mission or a pitched battle, they would be
> horrible for the mission in Iraq.

Actually, they might be even better in Iraq.  Limited power supplies?
No problem: a secure, mobile HQ/supply depot is always somewhere in
the city.  No identified combatants?  No problem: redundant systems
mean you can take a few shots and return fire after knowing where fire
is coming from (not to mention knowing you're under fire at all).

> Our mission in Iraq
> currently is more like humanitarian aid than war.

Raiders attacking unarmed supply convoys has been an ancient problem.
A remote-controlled robot convoy, once its remote operator determined
it was under attack and that only raiders were nearby, could blow it
up.  Maybe it'd take a few of the raiders with it; it'd definitely
deny the raiders of their objective (if the blast designers made sure
the cargo would be rendered useless).  Not an option with manned supply
convoys.

> We
> are not there to kill people and break things.

Solution: send out robot scouts that can afford not to fire first, even
when knowingly walking into an ambush.  Lose a 'bot, lose a 'bot.  Lose
a human being to trip a trap?  Not happening.

> We are
> there to build a democracy. I don't think the
> Terminator to be quite the olive branch we want to
> extend to the Iraqi people right now.

One of the lessons from the Terminator series is that it's not the
robot, it's the intelligence that controls the robot.  Robots can serve
and save humanity just like real people do, if their controllers wish
it.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 02:20:08 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:20:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050627011113.25154.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627022008.15976.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

Ok, you sold me. When can we have these robots ready
by? :)

> Actually, they might be even better in Iraq. 
> Limited power supplies?
> No problem: a secure, mobile HQ/supply depot is
> always somewhere in
> the city.  No identified combatants?  No problem:
> redundant systems
> mean you can take a few shots and return fire after
> knowing where fire
> is coming from (not to mention knowing you're under
> fire at all).
> 
> > Our mission in Iraq
> > currently is more like humanitarian aid than war.
> 
> Raiders attacking unarmed supply convoys has been an
> ancient problem.
> A remote-controlled robot convoy, once its remote
> operator determined
> it was under attack and that only raiders were
> nearby, could blow it
> up.  Maybe it'd take a few of the raiders with it;
> it'd definitely
> deny the raiders of their objective (if the blast
> designers made sure
> the cargo would be rendered useless).  Not an option
> with manned supply
> convoys.
> 
> > We
> > are not there to kill people and break things.
> 
> Solution: send out robot scouts that can afford not
> to fire first, even
> when knowingly walking into an ambush.  Lose a 'bot,
> lose a 'bot.  Lose
> a human being to trip a trap?  Not happening.
> 
> > We are
> > there to build a democracy. I don't think the
> > Terminator to be quite the olive branch we want to
> > extend to the Iraqi people right now.
> 
> One of the lessons from the Terminator series is
> that it's not the
> robot, it's the intelligence that controls the
> robot.  Robots can serve
> and save humanity just like real people do, if their
> controllers wish
> it.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Jun 27 02:23:15 2005
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:53:15 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] RadioCandela - my baby step toward the transparent
	society...
Message-ID: <710b78fc05062619233f18c37b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I started something a bit weird on the weekend, and I think people
here might get something out of it.

blog: http://RadioCandela.blogspot.com
podcast: http://feeds.feedburner.com/RadioCandela

I've started a podcast audio documentary (cringe word:
"podcastumentary") of my band, Candela (the band is myself and my
wife, Jodie). We've got our first half hour gig in a couple of weeks,
all originals, and we've got a bit of a cram ahead to get enough
polished material together. The podcast is of our rehearsals, because
I thought people might be interested to hear what actually goes on
behind the scenes in this kind of endeavour. I have tried to abridge
the recordings but not sanitize them, so a lot of this stuff makes me
cringe, but it should make you laugh.

I'm hoping that at least a few of the old timers here who know or know
of my music, and perhaps also people who have some experience of
podcasts already, might have a listen and give me some feedback.

I'm actually using this as a proof of concept for a bigger
podcastumentary on a larger scale show that I'm going to be helping to
produce, and will be performing in, for the Adelaide Fringe Festival
(www.adelaidefringe.com.au). That'll follow our whole process for 6
months plus, including all the initial planning right through to final
rehearsals, if I get my way :-) . So any feedback I can get now, from
technical matters to content criticism would be invaluable.

-- 
Emlyn

btw, for more info on podcasts and for client software, go here:
http://ipodder.sourceforge.net . Note that podcasts are not just for
ipod owners; they are just the audio version of a newsfeed (most
commonly using .mp3s). The really cool thing about them is that you
can subscribe to a podcast and have the latest episodes download
automagically (using built in BitTorrent tech) as they become
available, so you can just listen to them (on a pc, an ipod, or
whatever), without needing to concern yourself about checking
websites, performing manual downloads, etc etc.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jun 27 03:15:29 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:15:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <20050627022008.15976.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627031529.38367.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ok, you sold me. When can we have these robots ready
> by? :)

Good news and bad news.

Good news: "we" don't have to.  They're being done for us.

Bad news: we don't control the schedule.  That's being done by the
people actually working on it.

Of course, if you want to work on it yourself, there are plenty of
development contracts.

My main point was, there's at least one particular alternative to the
draft that, based on (very) recent historical analogue, seems likely to
be taken.


From jonkc at att.net  Mon Jun 27 04:38:39 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:38:39 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
References: <20050626235728.16485.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003801c57ad2$28fdce10$80ee4d0c@MyComputer>

cc Wrote:



> the 'only' problem you have is individual conscience and free will. 

> You can negate free will by incarcerating a draft resistor, 

> but you cannot broach the conscience

 

I'd love to debate with you but I haven't a clue as to what on earth you could possibly be are talking about, especially your use of the very odd term "free will". What in the world could it mean?

 

John K Clark


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From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Mon Jun 27 05:31:58 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:31:58 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
Message-ID: <1119850318.32198@whirlwind.he.net>

Avantguardian wrote:
> I agree with you that Iraq has the pontential to
> become our Afghanistan or another Vietnam.


As a technical nit, this is a non sequitur. :-)

Afghanistan for the Russians was a clear cut victory, right up until the
point where the US started sending very advanced weapon systems to the
Afghans that were, quite frankly, better than anything the Russians even
had at the time.  The Aghan battlefield was terrible for heavy
mechanized units (what the Russians specialized in), but excellent for
close air support which the Russians figured out very quickly.  When the
US anti-aircraft technology took away that advantage, the war was over.

Viet Nam was a decisive military victory for the US even in the absence
of political will.  Even the communist government of Viet Nam agrees on
this matter in their version of history.  The US snatched defeat from
the jaws of victory, though to some extent one can see the political
rationalization in the US that led to that.  Whether or not we should
have been there in the first place is a matter independent of military
outcomes.

The argument for Iraq is complex.  My basic libertarian philosophy says
we should not have been there in the first place.  However, as someone
who loves history and studies geopolitics, the plan and implementation
was actually quite good from the points of view that you might get from
the whatever brains are behind the current administration.  If you
accept their basic assumptions, the plan was extremely well conceived. 
Everyone is caught up in the short-term week-to-week going ons of the
middle east, but the long-term strategy will very likely achieve the
goals of the architects of this mess.

Which is an important point.  It is one thing to measure outcomes based
on, say, my assumptions and goals and quite another to measure the
effectiveness of implementation based on the goals of the people
actually doing it.  The Bush administration has been extremely effective
in a lot of ways geopolitically, but I fear that many people lack the
historical perspective and geopolitical context to see the extent to
which it is true.  In another decade there will be some hindsight, but
right now we are too close to it.  These things are never pretty under a
microscope; they only look nice through the big picture telescope of
history.

I'd hardly be considered a raving fan of Bush by any measure, but I do
recognize that their implementation is neither stupid nor short-sighted
-- I am not so foolish as to invest emotion in my analysis.  I may not
agree with what they are doing on some levels, but I recognize the
efficacy of their methods even if it is like watching sausage being made
in the short term.


> An enlightened strategy would consist of a concise
> set of military objectives that ended the conflict
> quickly and decisively without a minimal amount of
> lives lost on either side and minimal collateral
> damage.


Easily said, but difficult to implement.  This has been by far the
cleanest war of its kind to date.  The US war colleges have a superior
reputation, but there are limits to what a military can do given
practical logistical, technological, and political parameters. 
Generally speaking, I doubt that anyone could do much better on the
ground given the same operational parameters that the US military has
been given.


> Samantha, your idea of occupation is one that is
> no longer valid when it applies to American troops.
> American soldiers are, for the most part, good kind
> people. They are not vikings. They do not rape and
> pillage the conquered. Every country that America has
> occupied short of France has loved us for it. Our
> troops bring rule of law and spend lots of money in
> the local businesses.


Yes, and it is sadly amusing that many countries dislike American
soldiers right up until the point that the American soldiers agree to leave.

Not all circumstances are the same, of course.  It is probably
educational to look at all the countries we have soldiers in, our
relationships with those countries, and how we came to be in those
countries in the first place.


> We picked the easiest country that we could
> to put a huge military presence in the region. Would
> you suggest, we withdraw from Iraq and attack Syria or
> Iran? Would you rather we occupied Jerusalem? These
> options would cost us far more dearly than staying the
> course in Iraq. But the benefit would remain the same.


Ah, so I see that there are others that can do the geopolitical
calculus.  That part of the world needed to be smacked down *hard*. 
Iraq was the blindingly obvious target of opportunity in that region,
whether one agrees with the war or not.  It is like the nitwits that
wonder why we did not go into North Korea (it is a Chinese client state)
or Iran (it is externally manipulable in many ways).  Iraq was a very
effective target with negligible geopolitical consequences.  The only
countries that are annoyed are western countries that can no longer sell
arms to them.


> We bait the terrorists into attacking our troops
> rather than our civilians and we kill them one by one.
> The effect will not be immediate but sooner or later
> our backyard will be relatively free of bugs. I would
> rather fight this battle in Iraq than on the streets
> of New York.


The unspoken obvious.  Very few of the people the US soldiers in Iraq
are fighting are actually Iraqis.  This is the world we live in.  It was
not Disneyland before, and it is not Disneyland now.  If the people in
that part of the world can be convinced to police themselves, that will
be a huge improvement for all of us.


cheers,

j. andrew rogers



From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun 27 05:45:03 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:45:03 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] eurpoean vs american electric power standards
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0506261236c6c1fa9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200506270545.j5R5j2R03372@tick.javien.com>

Hey cool, epiphany!

I have always known that European nations use 50 Hz in
power distribution, whereas the US and Canada use 60 Hz.
I never gave any thought to why that is that way until I had
a waay insightful moment this weekend.  I was installing a ceiling
fan for my brother-in-law.  This being very close to the
summer solstice and the house being in Los Angeles, you
can imagine how hot it was up there in the attic.  This
was compounded by my insistence on a belt-and-suspenders
installation, for I do not wish to learn that my brother-
in-law and his wife had been injured or seriously killed
by a falling ceiling fan.  Either way, I was a totally
soaked sweat monster afterwards.

In any case, after the lengthy and laborious installation
of this none-too-high-quality fan from Walmart, we turned
it on for a smoke test, only to find that the 60 Hz hum
rendered the device practically useless.

We all know about the 60 Hz hum, or 50 Hz if you are in
Europe or Australia, or pretty much anywhere except in
the Americas and Saudi Arabia.

http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm

Transformers make that hum, electric motors, sometimes
florescent lighting, refrigerators, a lot of stuff.  We
know the pitch.  For the trained musician, we also know
that the 60 Hz pitch isn't one of the standard notes.  It
is hard to reproduce on the saxophone: I have always known
that the 60Hz pitch is about halfway between a B and a B-flat.
It sounds exactly halfway between to my ear.  It is a
very irritating noise because of that.  They should have
made it either a B or a B flat!  But not exactly halfway
between

I know there are a lot of good arguments about efficiency 
of power transmission, and the amount of copper needed 
in transformers, etc.  In the rocket science business we 
often use 400 Hz alternating current to transmit power,
which requires less mass in copper wire and less iron in 
the transformers.  But hang on.

I calculated it and found that 50 Hz would be between
a G and a G-sharp, but it would be closer to a nice
honest G.  That somewhat sharp G pitch is more pleasant 
than an icky sharp B natural or a barfy flat B flat.

Please those who are musicians and have traveled in
both the US and otherwise, such as Emlyn Oregan, Damien,
and others, is the refrigerator hum in Europe more
pleasant than in the states?

I'm guessing Tesla wasn't a musician.

spike 







From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Jun 27 05:57:26 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:57:26 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <1119850318.32198@whirlwind.he.net>
Message-ID: <200506270557.j5R5vUR10208@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of J. Andrew Rogers
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
> 
> Avantguardian wrote:
> > I agree with you that Iraq has the pontential to
> > become our Afghanistan or another Vietnam.
> 
> 
> As a technical nit, this is a non sequitur. :-)
> 
> Afghanistan for the Russians was a clear cut victory...
> ...  If the people in
> that part of the world can be convinced to police themselves, that will
> be a huge improvement for all of us.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> j. andrew rogers


This post by j. andrew rogers reflects my views better than any
I have read on this site, better even than the posts that I 
wrote.  Way to go j. andrew!  Yours is a very well thought-out 
and evenly written post.

To your last comment, I think that part of the world will
eventually police themselves, perhaps after a horrifying
civil war, but eventually they will work it out.  

spike







From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jun 27 06:10:52 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:10:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] eurpoean vs american electric power
  standards
In-Reply-To: <200506270545.j5R5j2R03372@tick.javien.com>
References: <ee50357e0506261236c6c1fa9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506270545.j5R5j2R03372@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050627011021.01d6bc68@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 10:45 PM 6/26/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>Please those who are musicians and have traveled in
>both the US and otherwise, such as Emlyn Oregan, Damien,
>and others, is the refrigerator hum in Europe more
>pleasant than in the states?

No.

Damien 



From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 09:47:36 2005
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:47:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] An advance in organic (ie plastic) electronics (was
	self replicating machine ....)
In-Reply-To: <20050606022222.56265.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627094737.29748.qmail@web60023.mail.yahoo.com>

Enjoy.

Plastic That Performs
Organic transistors get up to speed

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/ftl_nano.asp?trk=nl

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 27 10:53:40 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:53:40 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>
	<015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <C5A073C3-6197-43DD-8298-9F68EE091D1A@mac.com>


On Jun 26, 2005, at 6:00 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>> If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and   
>> consider those cops turncoats to their own people.
>>
>
> Samantha, like you I am concerned for the Iraqi's but unlike you
> I am not a citizen of the United States of America.
> Isn't the Constitution of the United States of America, every last
> clause of it, *yours*?

Yes and no.  The Constitution is a partially flawed document  
attempting to set up and perpetuate a free republic (not a  
democracy).   Its intent is more important than legalistic arguments  
about its clauses.

>
> Do you think you own fully enough what is *yours*? Do you
> understand the powerful social system that is your inheritance
> and at your disposal and has as its basis the US Constitution?
>

Freedom is deeper and more fundamental than the Constitution.  But  
yes, basically.

> Please read Mike's post that points out that treaties duly ratified
> are part of US law. I would like to discuss it and I would like
> to discuss it with you as well.

I do not agree with this notion.  If it is fully backed by the  
Constitution then this is a place the Constitution is flawed imho.

> Before I return to my planned days work let me make one final
> point Samantha. "Believing" was what the US President and his
> allies claimed to be doing when they went into Iraq to find weapons  
> of mass destruction.

Sorry but I believe the evidence is sufficient to conclude he knew  
better.

> Believing at least strongly suggests a faith based view and  
> professing belief in an emotionally charged discussion is like  
> calling for others, perhaps even followers, to  answer with their
> hearts and not be concerned much with the hesitancy that might
> be the good counsel of their heads.

I have no idea what you are attempting to say.  On the face of the  
evidnece I very much doubt Bush believed there was significant WMD in  
Iraq.

> One day I hope you might choose to express your moral concerns,  
> your humanity and your convictions without invoking
> "believing".

Oh, this tired old hobby horse again.  Please stay with the relevant  
points.

>
> Head and heart should proceed together. We have seen what
> happens when they do not.
> Your words are yours to choose.

What you pay attention to is yours to choose.  I don't find this  
choice very relevant or useful.

- s

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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 13:52:48 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <003801c57ad2$28fdce10$80ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20050627135249.37299.qmail@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The military can't force anyone to fight, but can lock draft resistors behind bars, placing their wills in cages. The resistors can still be active in prison, but their willpower generally tends to be sapped and blunted, or 'negated' in my terminology.


 



I?d love to debate with you but I haven?t a clue as to what on earth you could possibly be are talking about, especially your use of the very odd term ?free will?. What in the world could it mean?

 



		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 16:45:11 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 26, 2005, at 12:20 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
> >       That is exactly what we are trying to do there
> > now is give those people self determination.
> 
> No, we aren't.  You can give self-determination while occupying the  
> country.  Bringing democracy and the rest is another ad hoc excuse  
> for our actions.

If the US wants Iraqi oil so badly, why did they allow a French company
to get the vast majority of the oil supply? The oil shibboleth is one
more lie of the radical left.

> 
> > There are
> > Iraqis that want self-determination. These are the
> > Iraqis that risked their lives to vote in this last
> > election. These are the courageous Iraqi cops (hands
> > down the most dangerous job in the world today) that
> > are being captured, tortured, and shot en-masse by
> > your so-called underground resistance.
>  
> If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and  
> consider those cops turncoats to their own people.

If you were an Iraqi with your lifestyle, in Iraq, you'd be dead by
now, likely at the hands of the sort of people you think of as 'the
resistance'.
 
> > The insurgents
> > are misled into thinking that they are fighting to
> > drive out the foreign invaders but what they are
> > really trying to do is topple the fledgling democracy
> > that has been formed by the Iraqis with our guns but
> > THEIR votes.
> 
> To you think this Iraqi government being so slowly bolted together  
> represents real democracy rather than being in large part our own  
> puppets?  I believe there is ample reason to distrust this so-called 
> democracy and so-called Iraqi government.

Based on what facts? The 'resistance' is a few thousand Baathist thugs
outnumbered by Saudis, Syrians, Iranian, Jordanians, Egyptians, and
other al Qaeda recruits who are against ANY sort of representative
government. How can you support a group that has openly declared its
opposition to the very idea of democracy? Your stance is typical of the
loony Chomskyan left.

> 
> > That is why more Iraqis are dying by the
> > hand of your underground resistance than are American
> > troops.
> 
> It is not "my" resistance.  It is theirs.

Bull, just above you declared you'd join them if you were Iraqi. I also
question your libertarian credentials if you think your nationality is
of any importance in this fight. Why aren't you putting your life where
your mouth is like the American left did in Spain during the 1930's?

> 
> > Our troops are defending liberty yet again but
> > this time it is not ours, it is the liberty of our
> > defeated opponents.
> 
> Our opponents?  We decided to invade for bogus reasons a people that 
> were not remotely "our opponents".

Saddam was not 'our opponent'? I see a meltdown coming...

> 
> >      This might be an expensive proposition but will
> > not be a waste of money, unless we fail.
> >
> 
> It is a total waste of money and lives and credibility.  It is rotten
> to the core despite the rose colored glasses you insist on viewing it
> through.

What credibility? You never trusted Bush's credibility since 2000. If
you are a libertarian who puts her money where her mouth is you haven't
paid taxes, and you haven't volunteered, so exactly whose money, life,
and trust are we talking about here?

> >
> >      Samantha, your idea of occupation is one that is
> > no longer valid when it applies to American troops.
> > American soldiers are, for the most part, good kind
> > people. They are not vikings. They do not rape and
> > pillage the conquered. Every country that America has
> > occupied short of France has loved us for it. Our
> > troops bring rule of law and spend lots of money in
> > the local businesses.
> 
> Good kind people?  Read the accounts of the Iraqi people attempting  
> to flee Falujah.  Go check out the stories and pictures from Abu  
> Gharib again.  Good kind people no doubt were part of the German  
> occupation of France also.   I am sputtering I am so amazed by such a
> statement.

Nazi prisoners tried to claim the same thing of allied war prisons, but
nobody believed them. Don't you know that everyone in prison in America
is innocent? Few prisoners ever admit their responsibility for their
actions, and always blame their victims, the system, society, their
guards, the state, etc. etc. etc.

> >
> >      Organized terrorism has been strengthened a
> > little, yes, but it has also been drawn out into the
> > open and into the range of the guns of the most
> > powerful military on this planet.
> 
> Insurgents defending their homeland are not automatically terrorists.

Most insurgents are not Iraqis.

> 
> > This had to be done
> > sooner or later. We have to stabilize the Middle East
> > somehow.
> 
> By turning it into American Empire?

My only opposition (and that of many libertarians I talk to about the
topic) to the UN and one world government is that they didn't adopt the
US Constitution. If the entire world adopted the US Constitution, would
that be an American Empire? And would that be so bad? That would be my
second favorite option of a future world, outside of the end of
government altogether. I'm willing to compromise and take my second
choice...

> 
> > We picked the easiest country that we could
> > to put a huge military presence in the region. Would
> > you suggest, we withdraw from Iraq and attack Syria or
> > Iran?
> 
> I suggest we withdraw militarily from the region and come home to  
> spend the money on nuclear and other energy alternatives.  That would
> be much more sane.

What, you are advocating federal spending on energy? Hardly libertarian
of you. A better idea is to either remove the inane boat anchor from
nuclear power (the dollar per kilowatt tax paid into the
decommissioning trust fund) that retards its development, or else apply
the same boat anchor to oil to pay for its pollution.

> > Would you rather we occupied Jerusalem? These
> > options would cost us far more dearly than staying the
> > course in Iraq. But the benefit would remain the same.
> >
> 
> I would rather we not occupy any place in the region.

We? We who? Please let me know when you receive your draft card.

> 
> >      I guess you could call it the bug-light manuever.
> > We bait the terrorists into attacking our troops
> > rather than our civilians and we kill them one by one.
> 
> Do you actually believe this nonsense?

Of course, because that is exactly what is going on.

> >>
> >> We are making the ranks swell now.   Don't threaten
> >> with more
> >> Reichtaggs please.
> >>
> >>
> > Samantha, have you read Bin Ladin's letters? Do you
> > know what Jihad means?
> 
> Sure.  I know what the words of many madmen who draw power through  
> the mistakes and sins of their enemies mean. That doesn't mean that  
> there is any real modern jihad that has a prayer of working.  But if 
> you want to go more strongly toward jihad then show the Middle East  
> countries that the supposed exemplar of modern, rational, free and  
> secular ways is an invader who claims the right to attack at will.

<sarcasm>
Which is why Muammar Khaddafi has become an unrepentant international
kingpin and leader of a global terrorist movement....</sarcasm> Oh,
wait....

> 
> > It means that they want us all
> > to convert to Islam and put their clerics in charge of
> > our lives or they will kill us.
> 
> We have strengthened the hands of the theocrats as we have made the  
> alternative much less palatable.

Bull. The progressive Iranians boycotted the elections because the
mullahs banned all their candidates. It is going to take a good term of
true oppression again to motivate the Iranian people to do away with
religious rule once and for all.

> 
> > There is no diplomatic
> > solution to such an ultimatum.
> 
> We are the ones giving military ultimatums in the region.

I suppose you could say "Stop giving ultimatums or die" is a sort of
ultimatum, but it is not a principal one...

> 
> > But when the Bush
> > administartion failed to produce Bin Ladin in the lead
> > up to and since the 2004 election, I came to the
> > conclusion that the U.S. Government was not involved.
> 
> Why would we produce such an effective agent?

Because Bush's election was not guaranteed by any means and he is now a
lame duck, so the election would have been the optimal time to 'catch'
him if he was our patsy.

> 
> > Then I noticed that most of the literature on such
> > conspiracy theories were sourced in other countries
> > like Germany, France, and Canada. Countries that have
> > a vested interest in discrediting Bush.
> 
> I don't think so.  Most of what I read was home grown.  I also drew  
> my own conclusions from the events as recounted from multiple sources
> including the official ones.

Home grown in the offices of the Worker's World Party, the IAC, ANSWER,
MoveOn, and other groups that have been co-opted by the WWP's
entryists. What you take as gospel is nothing but stalinist/baathist
propaganda and disinformation. Mighty libertarian of you.

> 
> 
> >      No American President no matter how slick his
> > willy or empty his ten gallon hat would EVER order
> > such an atrocity. And if he did, the Secret Service
> > men guarding him would shoot him down themselves.
> >
> 
> Really.  Check out FDR on Pearl Harbor.  Check out what was proposed 
> by the military to fake Cuban terrorism on US soil and citizens  
> during the Kennedy administration.  What makes you think any such  
> conspiracy would be visible to Secret Service agents?

Who do you think killed Kennedy? The Secret Service is an office of the
Dept of Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Kennedy was trying to take
the US Gov't off of dependency on Federal Reserve Notes with an
issuance of United States Notes to supply the governments cash needs
free of the tax of inflation.

> >
> > Iraq is not the enemy any more. Now they are an orphan
> > that needs protection. Too many times in the past the
> > inherent flakiness of a foreign policy that changes
> > every 4-8 years has caused us to topple governments
> > and allow whoever has the will to power to fill the
> > vacuum. We have messed up whole sections of the world
> > by doing this. Let's do it right this time so that we
> > don't have to do it again.
> 
> So this time our unjustified meddling will produce good and balanced 
> results eh?  This is insanity, expecting different results from the  
> same actions that have brought ruin before.

Oh, yes, that dastardly Marshall Plan, total insanity that resulted in
the terrible waste of western Europe and Japan as failed states....

> 
> > There is a decisive victory
> > to be had in this conflict. It is the stabilization
> > and integration of the middle east with the rest of
> > the world.
> 
> Really?  Do say exactly what this consists of and how we will know  
> when the job is done.  What "rest of the world"?  The world is pretty
> diverse.

It took a number of years to get Europe and Japan back on their feet,
with active infiltration and communist insurgency supported by Stalin
in both areas. You know nothing of the thousands of French communists
that de Gaulle killed after the war....

> 
> > In a world with nukes, biotechnology, and
> > soon nanotechnology, we can't afford to have even one
> > percent of the world ideologically trapped in the
> > dark-ages.
> 
> Then we better deal with our own fundamentalist crazies at home.   
> They are much more directly dangerous to our way of live.

Bias alert. Our domestic fundamentalist crazies gain credence when the
voices of liberty sound even nuttier when they allow themselves to get
conned by stalinist propaganda.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 16:58:27 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:58:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] eurpoean vs american electric power standards
In-Reply-To: <200506270545.j5R5j2R03372@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <20050627165827.50925.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

According to wikipedia, Tesla chose 60 hertz as the lowest frequency
that would not cause streetlights to flicker visibly to most people
(there is a small percent of people who can detect flicker up to above
100 hertz). Europe and everyone else chose 50 Hz because of the
predeliction of metric countries to use 1 2 5 10 number structures.

"Other frequencies were somewhat common in the first half of the 20th
century, and remain in use in isolated cases today, often tied to the
60 Hz system via a a rotary converter or static inverter frequency
changer. 25 Hz power was used in Ontario, Quebec, the northern USA, and
for electrified railroads. In the 1950's, much of this electrical
system, from the generators right through to household appliances, was
converted and standardised to 60 Hz. Some 25 Hz generators are still in
use at Niagara Falls for large industrial customers who did not want to
replace existing equipment. The lower frequency eases the design of low
speed electric motors, particularly for hoisting, crushing and rolling
applications, and commutator-type traction motors for applications such
as railways, but also causes a noticeable flicker in incandescent
lighting. 16.67 Hz power (1/3 of the mains frequency) is still used in
some European rail systems, such as in Sweden and Switzerland."

400 Hz systems used in aircraft came about because of jet engine
technology, as turbines operate in tens of thousands of rpms, which is
hard to mechanically step down too much to 60 hz. You can generate more
power at 400 hz with a given generator weight than a 60 hz genset of
equal weight. The Constant Speed Drives used to step down shaft speeds
for the generator are near optimal weight (vs generator weight) at 400
hz as well.

Yes, it also allows for lighter guage wire, which is also why aircraft
use 24 vdc or higher direct current voltages as well rather than 12 vdc
as is typical for cars. It is notable that cars are now moving to
higher voltages to save weight in wiring as a fuel economy measure.



--- spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hey cool, epiphany!
> 
> I have always known that European nations use 50 Hz in
> power distribution, whereas the US and Canada use 60 Hz.
> I never gave any thought to why that is that way until I had
> a waay insightful moment this weekend.  I was installing a ceiling
> fan for my brother-in-law.  This being very close to the
> summer solstice and the house being in Los Angeles, you
> can imagine how hot it was up there in the attic.  This
> was compounded by my insistence on a belt-and-suspenders
> installation, for I do not wish to learn that my brother-
> in-law and his wife had been injured or seriously killed
> by a falling ceiling fan.  Either way, I was a totally
> soaked sweat monster afterwards.
> 
> In any case, after the lengthy and laborious installation
> of this none-too-high-quality fan from Walmart, we turned
> it on for a smoke test, only to find that the 60 Hz hum
> rendered the device practically useless.
> 
> We all know about the 60 Hz hum, or 50 Hz if you are in
> Europe or Australia, or pretty much anywhere except in
> the Americas and Saudi Arabia.
> 
> http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm
> 
> Transformers make that hum, electric motors, sometimes
> florescent lighting, refrigerators, a lot of stuff.  We
> know the pitch.  For the trained musician, we also know
> that the 60 Hz pitch isn't one of the standard notes.  It
> is hard to reproduce on the saxophone: I have always known
> that the 60Hz pitch is about halfway between a B and a B-flat.
> It sounds exactly halfway between to my ear.  It is a
> very irritating noise because of that.  They should have
> made it either a B or a B flat!  But not exactly halfway
> between
> 
> I know there are a lot of good arguments about efficiency 
> of power transmission, and the amount of copper needed 
> in transformers, etc.  In the rocket science business we 
> often use 400 Hz alternating current to transmit power,
> which requires less mass in copper wire and less iron in 
> the transformers.  But hang on.
> 
> I calculated it and found that 50 Hz would be between
> a G and a G-sharp, but it would be closer to a nice
> honest G.  That somewhat sharp G pitch is more pleasant 
> than an icky sharp B natural or a barfy flat B flat.
> 
> Please those who are musicians and have traveled in
> both the US and otherwise, such as Emlyn Oregan, Damien,
> and others, is the refrigerator hum in Europe more
> pleasant than in the states?
> 
> I'm guessing Tesla wasn't a musician.
> 
> spike 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From dirk at neopax.com  Mon Jun 27 16:58:01 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:58:01 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C03019.9060400@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>Most insurgents are not Iraqis.
>  
>
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2005/20050327_316.html
March 27, 2005
"Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army Gen. John Abizaid, 
commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the insurgents in the 
country are Iraqis,"

So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
Here's a challenge for you - give us the official % of foreign fighters 
in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US sources eg political, 
military etc

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Mon Jun 27 17:10:13 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:10:13 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42C03019.9060400@neopax.com>
References: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<42C03019.9060400@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <42C032F5.4030203@neopax.com>

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>
>> Most insurgents are not Iraqis.
>>  
>>
> http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2005/20050327_316.html
> March 27, 2005
> "Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army Gen. John 
> Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the 
> insurgents in the country are Iraqis,"
>
> So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
> Here's a challenge for you - give us the official % of foreign 
> fighters in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US sources eg 
> political, military etc
>
Actually, I'll do it myself.
http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20050603.htm
/The New York Times/, June 3, 2005

Adriana Lins de Albuquerque, /Senior Research Assistant/, Foreign Policy 
Studies
Michael E. O'Hanlon 
<http://www.brook.edu/pagedefs/622c9b0416adff3b5ebbe7be0a141465.xml>, 
/Senior Fellow/, Foreign Policy Studies

Average Number of Insurgent Attacks per Day?May 2003: 10, June 2004: 52, 
May 2005: 70

Estimated Number of Iraqi Insurgents/Foreign Fighters?May 2003: 
3,000/100, June 2004: 15,000/300, May 2005: 16,000/1,000

Which makes Mike's 'most insurgents are foreigners' true only if  most = 
6.25%

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From beb_cc at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 17:19:50 2005
From: beb_cc at yahoo.com (c c)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 Do you mean you would almost certainly be in the resistance and you would almost certainly consider the cops to be traitors to the people? 
And why do you qualify your statement with 'almost certainly'? Why don't you say, "I would certainly..."

Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and 
> consider those cops turncoats to their own people.

		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
 Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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From dirk at neopax.com  Mon Jun 27 17:38:11 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:38:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C03983.6000106@neopax.com>

c c wrote:

>  Do you mean you would almost certainly be in the resistance and you 
> would almost certainly consider the cops to be traitors to the people?
> And why do you qualify your statement with 'almost certainly'? Why 
> don't you say, "I would certainly..."
>
> *//*

Depnds on whether one is Kurd, Shiite or Sunni.
Kurds got what they wanted (defacto independence).
Shiites got what they wanted (running the country)
Sunnis got... er...

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From jonkc at att.net  Mon Jun 27 19:04:11 2005
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:04:11 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] A Quantum Computer on the market by 2008?
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com><015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C5A073C3-6197-43DD-8298-9F68EE091D1A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>

  http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/forward_quantum.asp
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jun 27 19:34:50 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:34:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] A Quantum Computer on the market by 2008?
In-Reply-To: <003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>
	<015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C5A073C3-6197-43DD-8298-9F68EE091D1A@mac.com>
	<003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050627143035.01ce4c98@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 03:04 PM 6/27/2005 -0400, JKC wrote:

><http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/forward_quantum.asp>http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/forward_quantum.asp

< D-Wave patterns an array of loops of low-temperature superconductors such 
as aluminum and niobium onto a chip. When electricity flows through them, 
the loops act like tiny magnets. Two refrigerator magnets will naturally 
flip so that they stick together, minimizing the energy between them. The 
loops in D-Wave's chip behave similarly, "flipping" the direction of 
current flow from clockwise to counterclockwise to minimize the magnetic 
flux between them. Depending on the problem it's meant to tackle, the chip 
is programmed so that current flows through each loop in a particular 
direction. The loops then spontaneously flip until they reach a stable 
energy state, which represents the solution to the problem.

D-Wave's first computer won't be able to accomplish the most widely touted 
payoff of quantum computing: factoring the extremely large numbers at the 
heart of modern cryptographic systems exponentially faster than any known 
computer. It will, however, be ideally suited to solving problems like the 
infamous traveling-salesman problem, in which a salesman searches for the 
optimal route among cities. As their complexity grows, such problems 
quickly become intractable for traditional computers because they require 
investigating every possible answer. In searching for its own optimal 
energy state, D-Wave's chip performs exactly this type of calculation 
automatically, in seconds. >

This strikes me as interestingly similar to the attractor design of 
Hopfield nets. Might be promising as the substrate of a method of learning 
and thinking that doesn't require precise algorithms.

Of course, some maverick theorists have already suggested that mind and 
choice arise from quantum tunnelling in the brain.

Damien Broderick 



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 27 19:50:52 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:50:52 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050627164511.64277.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1EA1640D-8BE5-4289-8AC5-998AC7CFEA5E@mac.com>


On Jun 27, 2005, at 9:45 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2005, at 12:20 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>>
>>>       That is exactly what we are trying to do there
>>> now is give those people self determination.
>>>
>>
>> No, we aren't.  You can give self-determination while occupying the
>> country.  Bringing democracy and the rest is another ad hoc excuse
>> for our actions.
>>
>
> If the US wants Iraqi oil so badly, why did they allow a French  
> company
> to get the vast majority of the oil supply? The oil shibboleth is one
> more lie of the radical left.

Which of the several "reasons" trotted out over time do you believe?   
When I see such a pattern of rationalization I tend to think that the  
real "reason" is other than the claimed one.   Do you honestly think  
I am part of the "radical left"?  Do you even think that such  
category claims and venom toward certain claimed categories aids this  
conversation?


I am going to bow out of this.  I don't have the time or interest to  
continue it.  It is non-productive.

-s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jun 27 19:54:17 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:54:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <355809AE-0D05-475E-9312-D4A6EC7C18F2@mac.com>

Because I am not there on the ground to know the full story.

On Jun 27, 2005, at 10:19 AM, c c wrote:

>  Do you mean you would almost certainly be in the resistance and  
> you would almost certainly consider the cops to be traitors to the  
> people?
> And why do you qualify your statement with 'almost certainly'? Why  
> don't you say, "I would certainly..."
>
> Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the resistance and
> > consider those cops turncoats to their own people.
>
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 20:04:57 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42C03019.9060400@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050627200457.16708.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> >Most insurgents are not Iraqis.
> >  
> >
> http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2005/20050327_316.html
> March 27, 2005
> "Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army Gen. John
> Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the
> insurgents in the country are Iraqis,"
> 
> So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
> Here's a challenge for you - give us the official % of foreign
> fighters in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US sources eg
> political, military etc

Sorry, I go by what the troops on the ground say. The ones that fight
against US troops and are currently participating in negotiations with
the US and Iraqi leaders to rejoin the political process are Iraqis.
Those who car bomb Iraqis and kill Iraqi cops and soldiers are
foreigners.

While high level people on all sides tend to pin the number of foreign
insurgents at 5% of all insurgents, a number primarily promoted by Red
Crescent and Michael Moore, over 150 live foreigner insurgents have
been captured to date. This number is contradicted by others claiming
that 91% are foreigners:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1419250/posts
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/47795.htm

WHOSE INSURGENCY? 

By MARK GOLDBLATT 
   
June 7, 2005 -- ACCORDING to the SITE Institute, a respected
counter-terrorism organization, only 9 percent of suicide bombings
sponsored in Iraq by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are conducted by native
Iraqis. 
Analyzing data from a "martyrs" list posted on a Zarqawi Web site, SITE
found that 42 percent of the killers hailed from Saudi Arabia, 12
percent from Syria, 11 percent from Kuwait, with the rest from an
assortment of Asian and European nations. 

Why does it matter? 

Because it gives lie to the suggestion, often heard on the left, that
the struggle in Iraq is a distraction from the war on terror. The
antiwar crowd insists that American soldiers are now engaged in a
guerilla war with militant Iraqis ? Michael Moore has compared them to
the Minutemen of our own Revolutionary War. Except now it turns out
that fully 91 percent of suicide bombers are foreigners crossing into
Iraq with the purpose of killing civilians. 

In short, terrorists. 

American soldiers are not fighting an Iraqi insurgency. They're
fighting a terrorist insurgency. If not for jihadi nutcases pouring
across its borders, Iraq would be well on its way to a stable and
peaceful democracy. 

It's high time that truth sunk in.   

E-mail: Mgold57 at aol.com 


This is concurred by libertarian Thomas Sowell.

42% are from Saudi Arabia, which has a vested interest in keeping oil
prices up with Iraqi instability. It appears that the left-wing claim
of a 5% foreign insurgent population is a fake number drawn from
counting any Iraqi civilian who owns a gun as being "an insurgent", as
if gun ownership automatically makes one a terrorist. By faking all
Iraqi gun owners as 'insurgents', one is able to make the precent of
insurgents who are foreigners seem small by comparison.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4252

Looking Back 
by Thomas Sowell  (June 6, 2005)

Summary: What will our descendants think of us -- will they ever
forgive us -- for leaving them in such a desperate situation because we
were paralyzed by a desire to placate "world opinion"?  

 [www.CapMag.com] 

We may look back on some eras as heroic -- that of the founding fathers
or "the greatest generation" that fought World War II -- but some eras
we look back on in disbelief at the utter stupidity with which people
ruined their economies or blundered into wars in which every country
involved ended up worse off than before.

How will people a century from now look back on our era? 

Fortunately, most of us will be long gone by then, so we will be spared
the embarrassment of seeing ourselves judged.

What will future generations say about how we behaved when confronted
by international terrorist organizations that have repeatedly
demonstrated their cut-throat ruthlessness and now had the prospect of
getting nuclear weapons from rogue nations like Iran and North Korea?

What will future generations think when they see the front pages of our
leading newspapers repeatedly preoccupied with whether we are treating
captured cut-throats nicely enough? What will they think when they see
the Geneva Convention invoked to protect people who are excluded from
protection by the Geneva Convention?

During World War II, German soldiers who were captured not wearing the
uniform of their own army were simply lined up against a wall and shot
dead by American troops.

This was not a scandal. Far from being covered up by the military,
movies were taken of the executions and have since been shown on the
History Channel. We understood then that the Geneva Convention
protected people who obeyed the Geneva Convention, not those who didn't
-- as terrorists today certainly do not.

What will those who look back on these times think when they see that
the American Civil Liberties Union, and others who have made excuses
for all sorts of criminals, were pushing for the prosecution of our own
troops for life-and-death decisions they had a split second to make in
the heat of combat?

The frivolous demands made on our military -- that they protect museums
while fighting for their lives, that they tiptoe around mosques from
which people are shooting at them -- betray an irresponsibility made
worse by ingratitude toward men who have put their lives on the line to
protect us.

It is impossible to fight a war without heroism. Yet can you name a
single American military hero acclaimed by the media for an act of
courage in combat? Such courage is systematically ignored by most of
the media.

If American troops kill a hundred terrorists in battle and lose ten of
their own men doing it, the only headline will be: "Ten More Americans
Killed in Iraq Today."

Those in the media who have carped at the military for years, and have
repeatedly opposed military spending, are now claiming to be "honoring"
our military by making a big production out of publishing the names of
all those killed in Iraq. Will future generations see through this
hypocrisy -- and wonder why we did not?

What will the generations of the future say if we allow Iran and North
Korea to develop nuclear weapons, which are then turned over to
terrorists who can begin to annihilate American cities?

Our descendants will wonder how we could have let this happen, when we
had the power to destroy any nation posing such a threat. Knowing that
we had the power, they would have to wonder why we did not have the
will -- and why it was so obvious that we did not.

Nothing will more painfully reveal the irresponsible frivolity of our
times than the many demands in the media and in politics that we act
only with the approval of the United Nations and after winning over
"world opinion."

How long this will take and what our enemies will be doing in the
meantime while we are going through these futile exercises is something
that gets very little attention.

Do you remember Osama bin Laden warning us, on the eve of last year's
elections, that he would retaliate against those parts of the United
States that voted for Bush? The United States is not Spain, so we
disregarded his threats.

But what of future generations, after international terrorists get
nuclear weapons? And what will our descendants think of us -- will they
ever forgive us -- for leaving them in such a desperate situation
because we were paralyzed by a desire to placate "world opinion"?



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com 


From dirk at neopax.com  Mon Jun 27 20:24:55 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:24:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627200457.16708.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050627200457.16708.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C06097.4070000@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Most insurgents are not Iraqis.
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2005/20050327_316.html
>>March 27, 2005
>>"Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army Gen. John
>>Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the
>>insurgents in the country are Iraqis,"
>>
>>So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
>>Here's a challenge for you - give us the official % of foreign
>>fighters in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US sources eg
>>political, military etc
>>    
>>
>
>Sorry, I go by what the troops on the ground say. The ones that fight
>against US troops and are currently participating in negotiations with
>the US and Iraqi leaders to rejoin the political process are Iraqis.
>Those who car bomb Iraqis and kill Iraqi cops and soldiers are
>foreigners.
>
>While high level people on all sides tend to pin the number of foreign
>insurgents at 5% of all insurgents, a number primarily promoted by Red
>Crescent and Michael Moore, over 150 live foreigner insurgents have
>been captured to date. This number is contradicted by others claiming
>that 91% are foreigners:
>
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1419250/posts
>http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/47795.htm
>
>WHOSE INSURGENCY? 
>
>By MARK GOLDBLATT 
>   
>June 7, 2005 -- ACCORDING to the SITE Institute, a respected
>counter-terrorism organization, only 9 percent of suicide bombings
>sponsored in Iraq by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are conducted by native
>Iraqis. 
>  
>
You claimed that most ****insurgents**** are foreigners - WRONG.
Your figures refer *solely* to suicide bombings (where enough is left to 
make an ID).
Your rabid right propaganda stinks and if you think we're as stupid as 
the people who lap up that crap you are badly mistaken.
The US is getting is ass kicked again and for good reason, and now Bush 
is 'negotiating' and talking about 'withdrawal with honor'.
I've heard that kind of shit before, but you just seem to be a sucker 
for it.
*All* figures point to the fact that the resistance is getting stronger 
month by month, and if Bush tries anything against Iran and its nuclear 
program you can bet that the relatively peaceful Shia in the South with 
be joining in the ass kicking competition to make the current situation 
seem like a picnic.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From jrd1415 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 27 22:29:36 2005
From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 
	The Penrose Conjecture, was Re: A Quantum Computer...
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050627143035.01ce4c98@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050627222936.90227.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

>
> Of course, some maverick theorists have already
> suggested that mind and 
> choice arise from quantum tunnelling in the brain.


Damien, 

Do you have something more recent--links please, if
you've got 'em-- than the basic "Penrose Conjecture",
the idea of some kind of quantum coherence thing slash
entanglement thing slash other weird quantum thing
taking place in the vicinity of the actin filaments
and/or microtubules?


Best, Jeff Davis

The known is finite, the unknown infinite;
intellectually we stand on an islet in the 
midst of an illimitable ocean of inexplicability.
Our business in every generation is to 
reclaim a little more land.
                    T.H. Huxley, 1887





		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jun 27 23:12:51 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:12:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Penrose Conjecture, was Re: A Quantum
	Computer...
In-Reply-To: <20050627222936.90227.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050627143035.01ce4c98@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050627222936.90227.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050627181011.01cda298@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 03:29 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:

> > Of course, some maverick theorists have already
> > suggested that mind and
> > choice arise from quantum tunnelling in the brain.
>
>Do you have something more recent--links please, if
>you've got 'em-- than the basic "Penrose Conjecture",
>the idea of some kind of quantum coherence thing slash
>entanglement thing slash other weird quantum thing
>taking place in the vicinity of the actin filaments
>and/or microtubules?

I was thinking especially of, e.g.:

"QUANTUM THEORY OF CONSCIOUSNESS" by EVAN HARRIS WALKER

http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html

I think he's probably talking bollocks, however.

Damien Broderick 



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Jun 28 01:06:12 2005
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:06:12 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050627210135.04eb2a48@unreasonable.com>

I've just confirmed that I can now pass along the embargoed news, exciting 
for those of us whose jukebox brains sing along when reading my subject 
line --

The next issue of Physics Today will contain hitherto unseen Tom Lehrer lyrics.

For those not Amara or otherwise in a member society of the APS, you are 
likely to find PT at your local library.


-- David Lubkin.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 01:22:13 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42C03019.9060400@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050628012213.2159.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> March 27, 2005
> "Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army
> Gen. John Abizaid, 
> commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the
> insurgents in the 
> country are Iraqis,"
> 
> So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
> Here's a challenge for you - give us the official %
> of foreign fighters 
> in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US
> sources eg political, 
> military etc

Of course it would be. Do you think that Al-Quaeda is
going to try to smuggle in enough men to actually
fight a war? No, they are the officers and the
instructors and they're probably only a few dozen of
them but they come from all over the region. The rest
of them are patsies. Young Iraqis with their whole
lives ahead of them, talked and drugged into injecting
themselves with adrenaline and throwing themselves at
machine gun nests with bombs strapped to their chests.

     These young men come from the poorest of families
and are lied to every step of the way. From the moment
when some interesting stranger invites him to a feast
with wine, drugs, and dancing girls. To the speeches
about all the fire and brimstone that the infidels
from the Great Satan of the West must suffer for
having defiled the youth's homeland with their foul
presence. To the moment he straps on the bomb
believing himself soon to be in Paradise. A Paradise
where the wine will be even finer than the wine at the
feast and the dancing girls will be houris. Beautiful
angelic virgins whose sole (soul?) purpose in the
after-life is to pleasure the warriors that were brave
enough to martyr themselves for the cause of Islam.
     It is these recruiters and leiutenants that the
military must nab to break the resistance. The rest
would just as easily surrender for a hot meal.     
Damn. I almost wish I was on the ground there.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 28 01:29:02 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:29:02 +1000
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being
	SuedOverAnti-Agi
References: <BAY103-F33C5DA5BA60BB035A740A0B4EB0@phx.gbl>
	<1B6F7C81-6BD8-4891-91B5-FC5829FCD936@mac.com>
Message-ID: <02c101c57b80$c44fed90$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Samantha Atkins replies to Brian Lee:

> On Jun 22, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Brian Lee wrote:
>
>> I've got two schools of thought on this:
>> 1) The Iraq war was illegal because all wars/invasions are illegal.  (For 
>> example, in WW2, Germany waged an illegal war on France,  Poland, etc. 
>> Then the allies waged an illegal war on Germany by  invading Germany. 
>> After this point it's all arguing over what the  right motivation is and 
>> that leads me to point #2).
>> 2) Since the US Congress granted war powers to invade Iraq, the US 
>> Executive was acting legally in invading Iraq. It is up to each  country 
>> to decide what is the appropriate motivation and vote. The  US voted and 
>> decided to go to war and to continue to support the  war effort.
>>
>
> It is not at all clear to me that "war powers" were granted or that  it is 
> constitutional for Congress to grant "war powers" in the sense  of 
> enabling to use military force at will without formal  Congressional 
> authorization to the President.

Samantha, I see that you are quoting Brian's use of "war powers".

Can *anyone* help Samantha and me out, and *make* clear with a
citation from the Congress *when* and on what grounds Congress
gave the US President the authorisation to use his executive discretion
including the discretion to exercise his judgement if that be his judgement,
as commander in chief of the armed forces, to invade Iraq.

This goes to the question of whether the US Congress shares responsibly
with the US President for the decision to invade (I think it does NOT, I 
think
the decision was his alone) and that the Congress simply gave him, as the
President, the power that as, post September 11, they thought the President
needed in order to give him a full range of timely options. I think they did 
not,
I stress did not, thereby authorise any subsequent abuse of power or advance
condone any action that might amount to the President breaching his oath of
office and committing high crimes and or misdemeanours. I think the Congress
was entitled to expect that the US President would act within the confines 
of
the US Constitution.

I'd like to look at the facts.

No matter how much one might want to impeach a President such is not
something to be done lightly, when America is at war, there has to be a real
case for it.

Yet surely, honourable soldiers that are citizens and are protected by the 
bill
of rights as well as other citizens of the United States ought not be left 
under
the command of a commander in chief that is willing to go to war against
US law and against his own solemn oath of office to uphold the Constitution.

It does not seem unreasonable to consider the case for impeachment,
especially as an unimpeached President that should be impeached retains
great power to harm the interests of the United States.

Can anyone provide a link to the relevant authorisation from the Congress?

I'm wondering if an impeachment of the 43 President of the US might not
be the most important part of any withdrawal with honour, or any doing
anything with honour.

Brett Paatsch 




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 01:31:30 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050627171950.62770.qmail@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050628013130.97847.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>

cc,

Mike did not say that. Samantha said that and Mike
questioned her on it.

P.S. Who are you?

--- c c <beb_cc at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Do you mean you would almost certainly be in the
> resistance and you would almost certainly consider
> the cops to be traitors to the people? 
> And why do you qualify your statement with 'almost
> certainly'? Why don't you say, "I would
> certainly..."
> 
> Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If I was Iraqi I would almost certainly be in the
> resistance and 
> > consider those cops turncoats to their own people.
> 
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Sports
>  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy
Football>
_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 01:44:44 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:44:44 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050628012213.2159.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050628012213.2159.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C0AB8C.4050805@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>March 27, 2005
>>"Speaking to CNN?s Wolf Blitzer in Mosul, Iraq, Army
>>Gen. John Abizaid, 
>>commander of U.S. Central Command, said most of the
>>insurgents in the 
>>country are Iraqis,"
>>
>>So, where are you getting your 'facts'? Fox news?
>>Here's a challenge for you - give us the official %
>>of foreign fighters 
>>in the Iraqi resistance according to prominent US
>>sources eg political, 
>>military etc
>>    
>>
>
>Of course it would be. Do you think that Al-Quaeda is
>going to try to smuggle in enough men to actually
>fight a war? No, they are the officers and the
>instructors and they're probably only a few dozen of
>them but they come from all over the region. The rest
>of them are patsies. Young Iraqis with their whole
>lives ahead of them, talked and drugged into injecting
>themselves with adrenaline and throwing themselves at
>machine gun nests with bombs strapped to their chests.
>
>     These young men come from the poorest of families
>and are lied to every step of the way. From the moment
>when some interesting stranger invites him to a feast
>with wine, drugs, and dancing girls. To the speeches
>about all the fire and brimstone that the infidels
>from the Great Satan of the West must suffer for
>having defiled the youth's homeland with their foul
>presence. To the moment he straps on the bomb
>believing himself soon to be in Paradise. A Paradise
>where the wine will be even finer than the wine at the
>feast and the dancing girls will be houris. Beautiful
>angelic virgins whose sole (soul?) purpose in the
>after-life is to pleasure the warriors that were brave
>enough to martyr themselves for the cause of Islam.
>     It is these recruiters and leiutenants that the
>military must nab to break the resistance. The rest
>would just as easily surrender for a hot meal.     
>Damn. I almost wish I was on the ground there.
>
>  
>
Another inhabitant of Planet Fox.
The bulk of the resistance is coming from Baathists - you know - the 
secular ones that originally didn't like AQ or Islamists.
And as for soldiers drugging themselves up, well, the US military is no 
stranger to that practice.
As for the rest of your crap post - it was a waste of space.
I cannot believe how naive and gullible you actually are. It's people 
like you who start wars because they consider the 'enemy' to be someone 
to be sneered at and beaten into submission and then lose it due to 
underestimation of same enemy. A typical American.

No doubt we'll see the last US choppers out of Baghdad flying with the 
remnants of the Provisional Government hanging off the skids.
Remember the US mantras - 'Peace with Honor', and for good measure try 
parroting 'We Do Not Negotiate With Terrorists'
Bush is preparing to cut and run.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 01:49:37 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:49:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor Being
	SuedOverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <02c101c57b80$c44fed90$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050628014937.10840.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Samantha Atkins replies to Brian Lee:
> >
> > It is not at all clear to me that "war powers" were granted or that
>  it is 
> > constitutional for Congress to grant "war powers" in the sense  of 
> > enabling to use military force at will without formal 
> Congressional 
> > authorization to the President.
> 
> Samantha, I see that you are quoting Brian's use of "war powers".
> 
> Can *anyone* help Samantha and me out, and *make* clear with a
> citation from the Congress *when* and on what grounds Congress
> gave the US President the authorisation to use his executive
> discretion
> including the discretion to exercise his judgement if that be his
> judgement,
> as commander in chief of the armed forces, to invade Iraq.

Once again, Samantha merely demonstrates that she doesn't read, even
when pointed directly at the source (as she has done repeatedly
regarding the Geneva Conventions):

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces
Against Iraq 

Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and
illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of
nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the
national security of the United States and enforce United Nations
Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq; 

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a
United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq
unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear,
biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and
develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism; 

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States
intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that
Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale
biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear
weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear
weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated; 

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire,
attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and
destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development
capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors
from Iraq on October 31, 1998; 

Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of
mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and
international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in "material and
unacceptable breach of its international obligations" and urged the
President "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the
Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into
compliance with its international obligations" (Public Law 105-235); 

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of
the United States and international peace and security in the Persian
Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its
international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess
and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability,
actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and
harboring terrorist organizations; 

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations
Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its
civilian population thereby threatening international peace and
security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account
for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an
American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully
seized by Iraq from Kuwait; 

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and
willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations
and its own people; 

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing
hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States,
including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush
and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and
Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the
United Nations Security Council; 

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for
attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including
the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in
Iraq; 

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist
organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and
safety of American citizens; 

Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001
underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of
weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations; 

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons
of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either
employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United
States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists
who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to
the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to
justify action by the United States to defend itself; 

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 authorizes the
use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council
Resolution 660 and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq
to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and
security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and
refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in
violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, repression
of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security
Council Resolution 688, and threatening its neighbors or United Nations
operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council
Resolution 949; 

Whereas Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against
Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the President "to use
United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council
Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security
Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674,
and 677"; 

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it
"supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United
Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the
Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public
Law 102-1)," that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates
United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and "constitutes a
continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian
Gulf region," and that Congress, "supports the use of all necessary
means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council
Resolution 688"; 

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the
sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to
support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and
promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that
regime; 

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United
States to "work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our
common challenge" posed by Iraq and to "work for the necessary
resolutions," while also making clear that "the Security Council
resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and
security will be met, or action will be unavoidable"; 

Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on
terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups
combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct
violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United
Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the
national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of
the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if
necessary; 

Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on
terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by
the President to take the necessary actions against international
terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations,
organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided
the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored
such persons or organizations; 

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take
all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist
organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who
planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that
occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or
organizations; 

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take
action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism
against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint
resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law
107-40); and 

Whereas it is in the national security of the United States to restore
international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region; 

Now, therefore, be it resolved by the Senate and House of
Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, 

SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE. 

This joint resolution may be cited as the "Authorization for the Use of
Military Force Against Iraq". 

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS 

The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President
to-- 

(a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all
relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages
him in those efforts; and 

(b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure
that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and
promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council
resolutions. 

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. 

(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate
in order to 


(1) defend the national security of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and 
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions
regarding Iraq. 

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION. 

In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection
(a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon
there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after
exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House
of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his
determination that 

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other
peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the
national security of the United States against the continuing threat
posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all
relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq,
and 

(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United
States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions
against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including
those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized,
committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September
11, 2001. 

(c) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS. -- 


(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. -- Consistent with section
8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this
section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization
within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. 
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. -- Nothing in this resolution
supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution. 

SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS 

(a) The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the
Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution,
including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted
in section 2 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected
to be required after such actions are completed, including those
actions described in section 7 of Public Law 105-338 (the Iraq
Liberation Act of 1998). 

(b) To the extent that the submission of any report described in
subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on
matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be
submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of Public
Law 93-148 (the War Powers Resolution), all such reports may be
submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress. 

(c) To the extent that the information required by section 3 of Public
Law 102-1 is included in the report required by this section, such
report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of
Public Law 102-1. 

> 
> Yet surely, honourable soldiers that are citizens and are protected
> by the bill of rights as well as other citizens of the United States
> ought not be left under the command of a commander in chief that is
> willing to go to war against US law and against his own solemn oath
> of office to uphold the Constitution.

You are entirely right, although as an aside, I find it odd that those
who most vehemently defended the subject of an impeachment a few years
ago who quibbled in his sworn testimony as to the meaning of the word
"is", that they are demanding similar action. Keep in mind that Clinton
bombed many people to distract them from his affair.

The burden of proof is that any special prosecutor would find it well
neigh impossible make Bush testify that he has not always believed that
Hussein had WMD and/or was involved in terrorism, IN SPITE of what
repeated and historically terrible intelligence agencies claim to the
contrary. In 2003, and even today, it appears a smarter bet to believe
the opposite of whatever the CIA claims to be true, they have been
wrong so often. If CIA intel said Saddam didn't have WMD, it is
apparent that believing the contrary is and was the less risky opinion
to hold.

Whatever the facts are wrt whether Saddam had WMD, the burden of proof
of Bush's guilt is whether he believed Saddam had WMD. CIA evidence or
testimony is entirely impeachable itself. There is no hope of
convicting Bush based on anything the CIA has to say.

> 
> It does not seem unreasonable to consider the case for impeachment,
> especially as an unimpeached President that should be impeached
> retains great power to harm the interests of the United States.
> 
> Can anyone provide a link to the relevant authorisation from the
> Congress?

The Constitution says the standard for impeachment is "high crimes and
misdemeanors", which apparently does not include perjury, given
Clinton's performance. If perjury (i.e. lying in a report to congress
required by the above referenced authorization on use of force in Iraq)
is not to be included as an applicable "high crime or misdemeanor"
(perjury is in fact a felony, which is higher than a misdemeanor, but
that apparently doesn't matter if you are a democrat who feels the pain
of his interns), then you are going to have to pursue treason or
breaking his oath of office (if you tried the second, you'd have to
impeach most every elected official).



Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 02:13:01 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42C06097.4070000@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
> >
> You claimed that most ****insurgents**** are
> foreigners - WRONG.
> Your figures refer *solely* to suicide bombings
> (where enough is left to 
> make an ID).

Hey fellas. You guys are having an argument about
estimates made through the fog of war. They are
unreliable at best. Think about taking the average of
the figures insetad any one figure or other is the
closest to the truth.

> Your rabid right propaganda stinks and if you think
> we're as stupid as 
> the people who lap up that crap you are badly
> mistaken.

I don't think that partisanship is going to help the
situation very well in Iraq. Mike is not rabidly
right, his views are well thought opinions based on
different assumptions. Just as my somewhat left views
are. What's important to me is that the U.S. as a
country handle Iraq correctly. The situation in Iraq
is simultaneously a crisis and an opportunity rolled
into one ball of wax. I don't think we are doing the
correct thing there now but withdrawing from there too
soon is definately NOT the correct thing to do.

> The US is getting is ass kicked again and for good
> reason, and now Bush 
> is 'negotiating' and talking about 'withdrawal with
> honor'.
> I've heard that kind of shit before, but you just
> seem to be a sucker 
> for it.

Again? Tony Blair and the UK were part of the
COALITION of the willing too if I remember it? Or was
it the coalition of the winning and now that things
aren't so great there, you guys want to take off
running? You stand to benefit if we succeed. Indeed
the entire civilized world does. But you don't want to
help foot the bill. Typical. I don't like Bush either,
but I am not going let my country cut off its balls
just to be able to spite him.

> *All* figures point to the fact that the resistance
> is getting stronger 
> month by month, and if Bush tries anything against
> Iran and its nuclear 
> program you can bet that the relatively peaceful
> Shia in the South with 
> be joining in the ass kicking competition to make
> the current situation 
> seem like a picnic.

Well then I hope that someone between Bush and the
captains on the ground has a plan that's better than
premature withdrawal. Does anybody know if they have
any law-enforcement / espionage support there?
Detectives are better at tracking people down in an
urban enviroment than are marine grunts.





The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 02:32:17 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:32:17 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>You claimed that most ****insurgents**** are
>>foreigners - WRONG.
>>Your figures refer *solely* to suicide bombings
>>(where enough is left to 
>>make an ID).
>>    
>>
>
>Hey fellas. You guys are having an argument about
>estimates made through the fog of war. They are
>unreliable at best. Think about taking the average of
>the figures insetad any one figure or other is the
>closest to the truth.
>
>  
>
They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up captured and dead 
enemy.
And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of 'most' ie >50%

>>Your rabid right propaganda stinks and if you think
>>we're as stupid as 
>>the people who lap up that crap you are badly
>>mistaken.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't think that partisanship is going to help the
>situation very well in Iraq. Mike is not rabidly
>right, his views are well thought opinions based on
>different assumptions. Just as my somewhat left views
>are. What's important to me is that the U.S. as a
>country handle Iraq correctly. The situation in Iraq
>is simultaneously a crisis and an opportunity rolled
>into one ball of wax. I don't think we are doing the
>correct thing there now but withdrawing from there too
>soon is definately NOT the correct thing to do.
>
>  
>
Then stay and get kicked out.
A solid US defeat will make the world a better place.

>>The US is getting is ass kicked again and for good
>>reason, and now Bush 
>>is 'negotiating' and talking about 'withdrawal with
>>honor'.
>>I've heard that kind of shit before, but you just
>>seem to be a sucker 
>>for it.
>>    
>>
>
>Again? Tony Blair and the UK were part of the
>COALITION of the willing too if I remember it? Or was
>it the coalition of the winning and now that things
>aren't so great there, you guys want to take off
>running? You stand to benefit if we succeed. Indeed
>the entire civilized world does. But you don't want to
>help foot the bill. Typical. I don't like Bush either,
>but I am not going let my country cut off its balls
>just to be able to spite him.
>
>  
>
I was one of the millions who demonstrated against the war. The biggest 
demos in British history.
I'd like to see that arse licking poodle Blair hung from a lamppost.

>>*All* figures point to the fact that the resistance
>>is getting stronger 
>>month by month, and if Bush tries anything against
>>Iran and its nuclear 
>>program you can bet that the relatively peaceful
>>Shia in the South with 
>>be joining in the ass kicking competition to make
>>the current situation 
>>seem like a picnic.
>>    
>>
>
>Well then I hope that someone between Bush and the
>captains on the ground has a plan that's better than
>premature withdrawal. Does anybody know if they have
>any law-enforcement / espionage support there?
>Detectives are better at tracking people down in an
>urban enviroment than are marine grunts.
>  
>
They got into this mess because through a combination of stupidity, 
greed, and self righteous arrogance.
And your last post seemed to sum up the US attitude of sneering 
condescension towards the insurgents. You forgot to mention that good 
old standby of 'they are only blowing themselves up for the money'. 
Every time I read a post like yours I feel like cheering those bodybags 
flying to the US.
Hey - it's only a bunch of freakin ragheads - let's go kick some ass - 
yeeehaaaaaaaw!
Almost every military defeat in history has been due to underestimating 
the enemy. Wasn't the US supposed to have learned something from the 
gooks and slopes, or Vietnamese as we used to call them?

I've read reports from US troops 'on the ground' and I don't believe the 
US can maintain the current situation unless they increase the forces by 
around 50%. The Iraqis are not going to be much use, not least because 
the police and military are heavily infiltrated by insurgents. Hey - 
wanna buy a second hand Iraqi M4 carbine? never fired and only dropped once.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 03:15:33 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:15:33 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] computer chess again
In-Reply-To: <20050628014937.10840.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506280315.j5S3FVR12641@tick.javien.com>


Friends, 2005 will go down in history as the year when 
computers demonstrated a final and convincing dominance 
of humans in chess.  Kasparov lost a match against IBMs
Deep Blue ten years ago, but the top humans were equal 
to the machines until this week.  

A six game match between Englishman Michael Adams
and Hydra ended up in 5 wins for the computer and one
draw.

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2005/games/hydra01.htm

After seeing how convincingly Hydra spanked Adams in
the match, and looking in particular at games 4 and 6, 
I am now firmly convinced that Hydra can easily defeat 
the other humans at the top of the heap.

spike


(ooooooh this is soooo cool.)  {8-]







From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 28 03:47:13 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:47:13 +1000
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor
	BeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
References: <20050628014937.10840.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <030101c57b94$11b46b20$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The Constitution says the standard for impeachment is "high crimes and
> misdemeanors" which apparently does not include perjury, given
> Clinton's performance. If perjury (i.e. lying in a report to congress
> required by the above referenced authorization on use of force in Iraq)
> is not to be included as an applicable "high crime or misdemeanor"
> (perjury is in fact a felony, which is higher than a misdemeanor, but
> that apparently doesn't matter if you are a democrat who feels the pain
> of his interns), then you are going to have to pursue treason or
> breaking his oath of office (if you tried the second, you'd have to
> impeach most every elected official).

To impeach the President and let's say the Vice President as well, and
perhaps the Secretary of Defence, why would you also need to
impeach "most every elected official" ? 

I am sceptical of this particular claim of yours Mike. I wonder if you
are just suggesting that most every elected official breaks their oath,
in which case I would reply that that is really a separate matter when
one is considering the elected position of the US President. An oath
breaking major of a minor town is not as serious as an oathbreaking
President with the power to appoint judges and send military forces
into harms way. Yet the flip side is that an oathbreaking President
perceived to be an oathbreaker that had gotten away with it would
likely encourage others at lower levels of public trust to emulate the 
practice and likewise hope to escape be held to account by the 
people.  

Don't you think that if the President, Vice President and Secretary of 
Defence, were impeached, assuming for the moment the impeachment
was successful because it was well founded, that that fact would send
a very powerful political message of hope and healing across the 
country and around the world, in that justice would be seen to be done. 

Brett Paatsch



From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 04:34:19 2005
From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] New book by WFS with transhumanist chapters
Message-ID: <20050628043419.51906.qmail@web32812.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear friends,
 
     The World Future Society (WFS) is just publishing a new book to be launched in their world conference in Chicago next month. More than a thousand people will be there, and the WFS books normally sell very well, including in many places with WFS chapters around the world.
 
     I have written a chapter in the book, next to one by William Sims Bainbridge. You are welcome to read more:
 
http://www.wfs.org/volexecsum05.htm
 
     Since the WFS has over 30,000 paying members around the planet, this is a good way to convey our transhumanist meme to allied organizations. Well, I hope to see some of you in Chicago for WFS 2005 and earlier in Caracas for TV05:
 
www.TransHumanismo.org/tv05
 
     TransVisionarily yours,



La vie est belle!

Yos? (www.cordeiro.org)

Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse


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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 04:43:35 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:43:35 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] ExtroBritannia
Message-ID: <42C0D577.1090508@neopax.com>

Are they still doing regular meetings?

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 05:02:19 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:02:19 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie dogs
In-Reply-To: <20050628014937.10840.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506280502.j5S52FR24919@tick.javien.com>


Need human test subjects.  Any volunteers?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html

spike



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 28 05:34:21 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:34:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie dogs
In-Reply-To: <200506280502.j5S52FR24919@tick.javien.com>
References: <20050628014937.10840.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200506280502.j5S52FR24919@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628003229.01e00f38@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 10:02 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, spike wrote:

>Need human test subjects.  Any volunteers?
>
>http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html

what a grotesque Fox package for this uplifting story:

< [snarling rabid dog pic: Eerie ... boffins have brought dead dogs back to 
life, in the name of science. ]

< SCIENTISTS have created eerie zombie dogs, reanimating the canines after 
several hours of clinical death in attempts to develop suspended animation 
for humans. >

Ack.




From humania at t-online.de  Tue Jun 28 05:43:21 2005
From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:43:21 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>

Thanx, Dirk and Samantha,

for still sticking to your views against this rotten US patriotism of
Lorrrey and LaForge and those uglitarian callous
caluculations with the deaths of  Iraqui people. Be assured that I am
writing 2 or 3 emails a week, but then: I don't hit the send button anymore.
I am too weak now to get screwed up in this stinking pile of shit.

Love and peace

humania





From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 05:50:54 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:50:54 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie dogs
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628003229.01e00f38@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200506280550.j5S5ouR30744@tick.javien.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] zombie dogs
> 
> At 10:02 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, spike wrote:
> 
> >Need human test subjects.  Any volunteers?
> >

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html

> 
> what a grotesque Fox package for this uplifting story:
> 
> < [snarling rabid dog pic: Eerie ...
> 
> Ack.

Cool, Dr. Peter Safar, a life devoted to cheating death:

http://www.post-gazette.com/lifestyle/20020331safar0331fnp2.asp


Here's another take on it, without the use of the obscure
term "boffins."

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/1/105


And this:

http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/12/1341

The experiments appear to all be several years old.  I am
not sure if these are the same "boffins" mentioned in the
original article.  Clearly we have a job to do just in
reducing the general public's squick factor at the notion
of suppressed metabolism and reanimation.

spike





 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 28 06:08:48 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:08:48 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
In-Reply-To: <200506280550.j5S5ouR30744@tick.javien.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628003229.01e00f38@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<200506280550.j5S5ouR30744@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628010614.01ce5908@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 10:50 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, spike wrote:

>the use of the obscure term "boffins."

This is a British term derived from "to boff", or perform an act of 
carnality. It was attributed to scientists due to their notable sexual allure.

Damien Broderick 



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 28 06:20:23 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:20:23 +1000
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com><42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

If anyone is doing a tally of how many people find this particular post
objectionable then please increment it one for me.

I would not find it so objectionable if some basis was given, but none
is. It looks like pure irrational fevered hate above a love and peace
sign off.

Please Stuart, please Mike, do not dignify this with a response, it does
*not* need one.

Brett Paatsch


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hubert Mania" <humania at t-online.de>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again


> Thanx, Dirk and Samantha,
>
> for still sticking to your views against this rotten US patriotism of
> Lorrrey and LaForge and those uglitarian callous
> caluculations with the deaths of  Iraqui people. Be assured that I am
> writing 2 or 3 emails a week, but then: I don't hit the send button 
> anymore.
> I am too weak now to get screwed up in this stinking pile of shit.
>
> Love and peace
>
> humania




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Jun 28 06:29:47 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:29:47 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] German diplomacy
Message-ID: <42C0EE5B.8010404@mindspring.com>

Hubert Mania wrote:

Thanx, Dirk and Samantha,

for still sticking to your views against this rotten US patriotism of 
Lorrrey and LaForge and those uglitarian callous caluculations with the 
deaths of  Iraqui people. Be assured that I am writing 2 or 3 emails a 
week, but then: I don't hit the send button anymore. I am too weak now 
to get screwed up in this stinking pile of shit.

Love and peace

humania

FOR Hubert:


June 17, 2005 DE GUSTIBUS What Was Served With Brunch Was Bile By BRET 
STEPHENS June 17, 2005 In Beirut last month, I met a Lebanese man who 
had been savagely tortured over the course of a 12-year odyssey in 
Syrian prisons. Among the things he had endured were electrocutions, 
beatings with electric cables, and being hanged from ropes by his 
ankles. And then there was "the German chair." The German chair, as he 
described it, was something akin to a medieval rack, in which 
progressively greater doses of pain are administered an inch at a time. 
Yet why was it known as the German chair? It's a question I neglected to 
ask. But I found my answer several weeks later, in New York. What 
occasioned this discovery was meeting a relatively senior German 
diplomat posted to the New York consulate. My wife -- also German -- 
knows his wife socially; our children use the same playground. They had 
invited us to their home for Sunday brunch. I should say here that I 
speak almost no German, and it quickly became apparent that the 
diplomat's wife spoke almost no English. So it was perhaps natural that, 
soon after we arrived, she and my wife took to one corner of the 
spacious apartment while the diplomat ushered me into his study. Less 
natural was the conversation that followed. I made the normal chitchat 
of first encounters: praise for the unobstructed (and million-dollar) 
views of the Hudson River; a query about what he did at the consulate. 
But the diplomat had no patience for my small talk. Apropos of nothing, 
he said he had recently made a study of U.S. tax laws and concluded that 
practices here were inferior to those in Germany. Given recent rates of 
German economic growth, I found this comment odd. But I offered no 
rejoinder. I was, after all, a guest in his home. The diplomat, however, 
was just getting started. Bad as U.S. economic policy was, it was as 
nothing next to our human-rights record. Had I read the recent Amnesty 
International report on Guantanamo? "You mean the one that compared it 
to the Soviet gulag?" Yes, that one. My host disagreed with it: The 
gulag was better than Gitmo, since at least the Stalinist system offered 
its victims a trial of sorts. Nor was that all. Civil rights in the 
U.S., he said, were on a par with those of North Korea and rather behind 
what they had been in Europe in the Middle Ages. When I offered that, as 
a journalist, I had encountered no restrictions on press freedom, he cut 
me off. "That's because The Wall Street Journal takes its orders from 
the government." By then we had sat down at the formal dining table, 
with our backs to Ground Zero a half-mile away and our eyes on the boats 
on the river below us. My wife and I made abortive attempts at ordinary 
conversation. We were met with non sequiturs: "The only people who 
appreciate American foreign policy are poodles." After further bizarre 
pronouncements, including a lecture on the illegality of the Holocaust 
under Nazi law, my wife said that she felt unwell. We gathered our 
things and left. For days now, I've been asking myself why I didn't 
answer the diplomat in the way he deserved. Partly it had to do with my 
wish not to spoil the friendship between our wives. Partly, too, his 
assault was so discombobulating I didn't trust myself to respond 
coherently. But the main reason is that, as his guest, I was restrained 
by an innate sense of propriety, a sense the diplomat did not share. And 
herein lies the essence of the torturer's art. To inflict harm on a 
defenseless person -- whoever he may be, whatever he has done -- goes 
against the human grain. It is one thing to strike out at somebody who 
has just hit you. It's another thing entirely to abuse someone who, 
whether as prisoner or as guest, is in your power.

Long ago the Greeks understood that nothing is so barbarous as 
inhospitality. And according to popular exegesis, God did not destroy 
Sodom and Gomorrah because of its citizens' sexual crimes but because of 
their crimes against hospitality -- the rape of strangers. Torturers, 
however, are those rare people who can inflict injury on the 
defenseless, work which is made easier for them because they know most 
people are unable to respond in kind. Thus it was with the German 
diplomat. Seated at his table, I submitted to his rules. But rather than 
oblige my submission with courtesy, he took the opportunity to inflict 
his insults -- insults to which I, as a guest, was bound not to resist. 
I was, so to speak, in his German chair. I am tempted to violate 
journalistic standards here by revealing the diplomat's name. Of course 
I won't: That's not the sort of man I am. The trouble is, that's one big 
reason why he is the man he is. German readers especially may recall the 
words of Brecht: The womb is fertile still, which bore this fruit. Mr. 
Stephens is a member of the Journal's editorial board. Copyright 2005 
Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, 
Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at 
mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * 
Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting 
(USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web 
Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, 
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, 
Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at 
mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * 
Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting 
(USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web 
Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, 
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

This email was cleaned by emailStripper, available for free from 
http://www.printcharger.com/emailStripper.htm


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 07:30:40 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628010614.01ce5908@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050628073041.76367.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> At 10:50 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, spike wrote:
> 
> >the use of the obscure term "boffins."
> 
> This is a British term derived from "to boff", or
> perform an act of 
> carnality. It was attributed to scientists due to
> their notable sexual allure.

Thanks for clearing that up. Here I thought boffins
were those guys in Star Wars that died to get the
plans to the death star into the rebellion's hands.
And I didn't know that you Brits think we scientists
are so boffable. :)


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 07:46:51 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
Message-ID: <20050628074651.73653.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> >
> >Hey fellas. You guys are having an argument about
> >estimates made through the fog of war. They are
> >unreliable at best. Think about taking the average
> of
> >the figures insetad any one figure or other is the
> >closest to the truth.
> >
> >  
> >
> They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up
> captured and dead 
> enemy.
> And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of
> 'most' ie >50%

Well that could be biased by the Iraqi youths being
talked into taking the higher risk missions and
therfore getting killed more often. What we really
need is to infiltrate the resistance to find out who
and what is really going on. Its very hard to fight a
canny war when the side you are on insists on
broadcasting every little move it makes to the whole
world and the other side does everything with the
utmost secrecy.

> >  
> >
> Then stay and get kicked out.
> A solid US defeat will make the world a better
> place.

How would a solid US defeat make the world a better
place? Let you buy more McDonald's french fries for
the euro? Is that is what this all about? The United
States is not perfect by any stretch of the
imagination but we try to be better than we are.
      Admittedly I was ashamed of the stuff that I the
rest of world found out was happening in Abu Gharib
and Gitmo. And I in my capacity as an American
apologize to the world for that. This is obviously not
because I was anywhere in the chain of command at
either location nor in any other way responsible for
it, but simply because it was MY country. I would
however like to point out that the pictures and
stories from both places also came from Americans both
journalists and whistleblowing soldiers. This makes me
feel proud. There's a bad American in every lot
soldiers included, but 9 out of 10 of them good
people. And the good people in the U.S., military or
otherwise, have the will and the courage to police the
bad. 


> >
> I was one of the millions who demonstrated against
> the war. The biggest 
> demos in British history.
> I'd like to see that arse licking poodle Blair hung
> from a lamppost.

I protested the war too in some of the record
demonstrations in Los Angeles. Back when it first
started and for quite a while after it was supposed to
be over. I have never had such a hard time figuring
out what a particular war was about. Between the lies
told by the Bush administration, the bizarre
conspiracy theories, and international propaganda
campaign, I thought this was one of the most
mysterious wars in history despite the fact that it
recieved the most intensive news coverage of any war
in history.
      Now after wading through all the crap, I think I
know what the hell is happening there and why its
happening there. Yes Bush lied. My whole state and I
voted against him twice because I never trusted him.
In retrospect he could have just told us that he
wanted to garrison a large force in the middle east to
keep the peace and keep the oil flowing. Had he told
the truth about it, he might have gotten the U.N. to
go along with him like the democrats wanted all along.

But for reasons of his own, he lied about imminent
threats and WMDs. In that sense Bush sucks.
     But whereas before when I protested the war it
was because I thought we were doing the wrong thing
for the right reasons. Now I support the war because I
think we are doing the right thing for the wrong
reasons. If there really is a democracy in Iraq right
now at least as real as the one here in the States
then we did a good thing. If we leave too quickly then
either the Baathist minority that oppressed the
majority for so long resumes power or the clerics take
over which would be just as bad.
      Babylon used to be a center of civilization for
the world. We could make it so once again. 
> 
> >
> They got into this mess because through a
> combination of stupidity, 
> greed, and self righteous arrogance.
> And your last post seemed to sum up the US attitude
> of sneering 
> condescension towards the insurgents.

Yes. Bush supplied the stupidity. Cheney supplied the
greed. And somebody, possibly Colin Powell supplied
the arrogance. You could probably work your way
through Bush's cabinet with character traits like
that. But how was any post of mine condescending or
sneering to the Iraqis or the insurgents? I seem to
remember warning against underestimating them several
posts ago. I don't think Americans on the street are
condescending to the insurgents, hell I doubt the
average American knows who they are. The average
American just wants their boys to come home and Iraq
to enjoy the democracy that we had to build for them
with our tax dollars.

 You forgot to
> mention that good 
> old standby of 'they are only blowing themselves up
> for the money'.
What? Who says this? 
> Every time I read a post like yours I feel like
> cheering those bodybags 
> flying to the US.

What did I say? Do you disagree with me that the
insurgents are gullible youths that are tricked into
fighting for a cause that they hold no stake in? Would
you disagree with me that most of the U.S. marines
that are stationed there are gullible youths that are
tricked into fighting for a cause that they hold no
stake in? How is what I said condescending? 

> Hey - it's only a bunch of freakin ragheads - let's
> go kick some ass - 
> yeeehaaaaaaaw!

sigh... we're not all from Texas.

> Almost every military defeat in history has been due
> to underestimating 
> the enemy. Wasn't the US supposed to have learned
> something from the 
> gooks and slopes, or Vietnamese as we used to call
> them?

> I've read reports from US troops 'on the ground' and
> I don't believe the 
> US can maintain the current situation unless they
> increase the forces by 
> around 50%. The Iraqis are not going to be much use,
> not least because 
> the police and military are heavily infiltrated by
> insurgents. Hey - 
> wanna buy a second hand Iraqi M4 carbine? never
> fired and only dropped once.
> 
Well if they want us to leave let them vote us away.
If over half of the Iraqis want us gone, I say we
start packing.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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From humania at t-online.de  Tue Jun 28 07:47:11 2005
From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:11 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] German diplomacy
References: <42C0EE5B.8010404@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002501c57bb5$9b5c1f50$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>

> FOR Hubert:
>
>
> June 17, 2005 DE GUSTIBUS What Was Served With Brunch Was Bile By BRET
> STEPHENS

Terry,

you are committing the mistake of confusing a German asshole diplomate with
me, just because I am German citizen. I am protesting aganst a certain
callous attitude towards the lives of innocent people. The people I address,
happen to be US citizens who are posters on this list. That does not mean
that I am blindly anti American. If German, French or Canadian citizens
would exhibit such attitudes, I would attack them just the same.

humania




From amara at amara.com  Tue Jun 28 09:08:11 2005
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:08:11 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] re: european vs american electric power standards
Message-ID: <p06210204bee6c1d2aebd@[150.146.134.133]>

I was in Bern (at ISSI: http://www.issi.unibe.ch/)  last week while
this Swiss electricity-train drama played out. A short-circuit and
an unusual 'flow pattern'. Interesting!

Amara



"Swiss seek answers after trains roll to a halt"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/23/news/swiss.php

A three-decade debate in Switzerland over whether to build new
high-tension lines across the countryside to assure a stable power
supply played out dramatically Wednesday night in a failure of the
nation's railroads.

A three-hour power failure left thousands of commuters, some of them
in tunnels, stranded in unseasonably hot weather. A major European
freight link was also blocked. Newspapers Thursday showed photos of
stations in Zurich and Bern packed with passengers, many sitting on
platforms and staircases in the station foyers.

Operations returned nearly to normal Thursday as an investigation
began into all the elements of the country's first lengthy
nationwide rail failure.

The abrupt shutdown of the system occurred after a series of
coincidental events ranging from an electrical short circuit in the
Alps to ongoing maintenance work, the railroad said Thursday. But
underlying the cascading problems was the railroad's lack of a
backup power supply in electrical emergencies.

Almost the entire Swiss system is powered by electric locomotives
that draw their power from overhead 15,000-volt lines.

The shutdown started at 5:47 p.m. with a short circuit involving a
line leading from one of the railroad's six electrical plants,
according to a railroad spokesman, Christian Krauchi.

When the line from the plant at Amsteg short-circuited, a surge of
electricity was forced into other parts of the system because two
lines that normally would have rerouted the plant's output in a
normal pattern were shut down for track maintenance work.

The surge of electricity suddenly meant that there was an oversupply
of electricity to the western and southern parts of the country and
too little flowing to the north, Krauchi said. Feeder lines from
Germany were inadequate to handle the north.

All the railroad's plants then automatically shut down because of
the unstable power situation, he said.

"The Swiss network is not linked in circuits but in a star pattern,"
the spokesman said, adding that the railroad had been trying to
build electrical loops but had been slowed by public protests.

The main remaining mystery was what caused the initial short
circuit. Rail workers were surveying 40 kilometers, or about 25
miles, of line seeking the cause of the outage.

Only the railroad power supply was affected because the railroad
runs its own separate hydroelectric plants.

Switzerland has suffered some delays in the past but never on this
scale. Most recently, an information technology failure in Zurich in
February led to small delays across the country.

Benedikt Weibel, chief executive of Swiss Federal Railways, was
himself delayed on a high-speed TGV train between Paris and Bern,
according to a French daily, Le Temps. Weibel walked down the train
to apologize to passengers, the newspaper reported.

Passengers used to having their trains run like clockwork were
surprisingly calm about the delays. Ulrich Lehner, a senior civil
servant in the Foreign Ministry, said there was a sense of
solidarity between passengers stranded on a train between Bern and
Geneva. After spending some hours waiting at a small town station
midroute, the passengers were taken by bus to Lausanne, from where
many found their way to Geneva using other forms of transport.

"People are used in this country to things working," said Lehner, a
senior Foreign Ministry official who took five hours to get from
Bern to his home in Geneva, about three times the normal traveling
time. "We were very surprised to hear that the whole network was
affected at the same time."

"People took it philosophically," he said. "They were rather relaxed
when they realized there was nothing they could do about it."

On Wednesday night, rail workers led passengers out of tunnels.
Other passengers simply sat and waited, while some lucky ones
continued to their destinations behind the few available diesel
locomotives.

Rail staff handed out vouchers for future travel worth 3 million
Swiss francs, or $2.3 million, the railroad said in a news
conference Thursday in Bern. It also paid overnight accommodation
for a few hundred stranded passengers and organized bus and taxi
transit for others, including business people needing to get to
Zurich International Airport.

Unseasonably hot temperatures, which rose to 32 degrees Celsius, or
89 degrees Fahrenheit, added to the discomfort. Seven trains were
caught in some of Switzerland's many tunnels, with passengers
waiting up to 90 minutes to be taken out by rail staff.

By Thursday morning things appeared to be running as normal. Bern's
station was no more busy than on an average day. Notices in some
stations warned delays could be possible, but most trains were
running on schedule.


-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"We haven't the money, so we've got to think." -- Ernest Rutherford



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Jun 28 10:57:22 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:57:22 -0700
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>

I find many things objectionable.  Hubert spoke from his heart.  I  
for one understand how he feels.

If it does not need a response then why are you raising it up and  
suggesting a tally?

Personally I am letting a lot ride because it is not worth my energy  
and time to tease apart the in my opinion ridiculous justifications  
for the war or its continuance.  Nor is it worth my time to  
continuously check Mike as he in my opinion often gives  
libertarianism a bad name.   Nor is it worth my time to engage in  
legalistic pissing contests devoid of any real understanding or wisdom.

- samantha


On Jun 27, 2005, at 11:20 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> If anyone is doing a tally of how many people find this particular  
> post
> objectionable then please increment it one for me.
>
> I would not find it so objectionable if some basis was given, but none
> is. It looks like pure irrational fevered hate above a love and peace
> sign off.
>
> Please Stuart, please Mike, do not dignify this with a response, it  
> does
> *not* need one.
>
> Brett Paatsch
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hubert Mania" <humania at t- 
> online.de>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
>
>
>
>> Thanx, Dirk and Samantha,
>>
>> for still sticking to your views against this rotten US patriotism of
>> Lorrrey and LaForge and those uglitarian callous
>> caluculations with the deaths of  Iraqui people. Be assured that I am
>> writing 2 or 3 emails a week, but then: I don't hit the send  
>> button anymore.
>> I am too weak now to get screwed up in this stinking pile of shit.
>>
>> Love and peace
>>
>> humania
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 28 11:18:52 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:18:52 +1000
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com><42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com><002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z><038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>
Message-ID: <03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

>I find many things objectionable.  Hubert spoke from his heart.  I  
> for one understand how he feels.

I think I do too. But we are not mere brutes whose feelings are
all that matters, we are homo sapiens. It doesn't take heaps of 
imagination to understand a hound howling because it has a thorn
in its paw. Its just that the howling is a poor means of communication.  
 
> If it does not need a response then why are you raising it up and  
> suggesting a tally?

That was poor wording. I should not have said that. I don't want
a tally. I want to work over issues with people who want to work
them over. 

> Personally I am letting a lot ride because it is not worth my energy  
> and time to tease apart the in my opinion ridiculous justifications  
> for the war or its continuance. 

That is fair enough. Your time is yours. 

> Nor is it worth my time to  
> continuously check Mike as he in my opinion often gives  
> libertarianism a bad name.   

After the "as" and with the "often" that is not fair in my opinion and
its flamebait to Mike. 

>Nor is it worth my time to engage in  
> legalistic pissing contests devoid of any real understanding or wisdom.

Okay. So don't. But please be fair about it, if you have no real interest
then stay out until you do have an interest as you can only add heat
not light. Not because you couldn't add light if you did care but because
you don't care. 

Brett 



From alito at organicrobot.com  Tue Jun 28 11:48:19 2005
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:48:19 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] computer chess again
In-Reply-To: <200506280315.j5S3FVR12641@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506280315.j5S3FVR12641@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <1119959300.13617.110.camel@alito.homeip.net>

On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 20:15 -0700, spike wrote:
> A six game match between Englishman Michael Adams
> and Hydra ended up in 5 wins for the computer and one
> draw.
> 
> http://www.chessbase.com/news/2005/games/hydra01.htm
> 
> After seeing how convincingly Hydra spanked Adams in
> the match, and looking in particular at games 4 and 6, 
> I am now firmly convinced that Hydra can easily defeat 
> the other humans at the top of the heap.
> 
Those two orders of magnitude in speed wrt PCs does seem to make quite a
qualitative difference.  1...e5 though is a silly thing to reply to a
computer and it's just a pity that that is all Michael Adams ever plays
(that said, Kramnik, who I thought would be the archetypal anti-computer
player, could only draw with Fritz not very long ago)
Note though that enhanced humans are not for finished yet.  The Hydras,
both 16 and 32 CPU versions, got hammered just a month ago in an
advanced chess comp.
alejandro




From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 14:31:17 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:31:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
In-Reply-To: <20050628073041.76367.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200506281431.j5SEVDR01832@tick.javien.com>

> --- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> 

> > This is a British term derived from "to boff", or
> > perform an act of
> > carnality. It was attributed to scientists due to
> > their notable sexual allure.
> 
> And I didn't know that you Brits...

Damien is Australian, mate.

> ...think we scientists are so boffable. :)
> 
> The Avantguardian


Not all scientists, Avant, just the boffologists.

{8^D

spike







From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 28 14:49:28 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:49:28 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] computer chess again
In-Reply-To: <1119959300.13617.110.camel@alito.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <200506281449.j5SEnZR03672@tick.javien.com>

> Alejandro Dubrovsky
...
> Note though that enhanced humans are not for finished yet.  The Hydras,
> both 16 and 32 CPU versions, got hammered just a month ago in an
> advanced chess comp.
> alejandro

Ja I noticed that.  {8-]

alejandro, we should point out for the chess-nongeeks that
advanced chess is a competition that allows the humans to
use computers and team up.  I see it as wonderful advertisement
for computer enhancement of humans in athletic competitions.

spike






From scerir at libero.it  Tue Jun 28 15:00:21 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:21 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Penrose Conjecture,
	was Re: A Quantum Computer...
References: <20050627222936.90227.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c57bf2$1e4cf830$4ab71b97@administxl09yj>

From: "Jeff Davis"
> [...] the idea of some kind of quantum coherence thing
> slash entanglement thing slash other weird quantum thing
> taking place in the vicinity of the actin filaments
> and/or microtubules?

There is a journal here http://www.mindmatter.de/
and there are also many papers (pdf) here
http://www.mindmatter.de/mmissue1_1.htm
http://www.mindmatter.de/mmissue2_2.htm

See also many papers by Harald Atmanspacher
http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/cv/cv_ha.htm
here http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/info.htm#pub

The first side of the coin says that QT is the kingdom
of (irreducible) randomness. The other side of the coin
says that 'properties' (observables) of quantum objects
(atoms, molecules) can be correlated more strongly
than in classical physics. 

In principle it is possible to entangle 'properties'
(such as energies and 'proper' times) of many qudits. 
(A qudit is a D-dimensional quantum system whose
Hilbert space is spanned by discrete states |0>, |1>,...
..., |D-1>). But I do not think that entanglement
is relevant here (brain), and I do not think 
that the brain is a huge collection of qudits. 
(Khrennikov, and others, suggest that in the brain, 
and also in the society, if not in economy, there are 
interference of probabilities, quantum-like. This
is a different approach. The role of decoherence
in the - supposed quantum - brain is another approach,
similar to Penrose's ideas.)  







From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Jun 28 16:41:32 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:41:32 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] German diplomacy
In-Reply-To: <002501c57bb5$9b5c1f50$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
References: <42C0EE5B.8010404@mindspring.com>
	<002501c57bb5$9b5c1f50$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <42C17DBC.7010701@mindspring.com>

Hubert Mania wrote:

>>FOR Hubert:
>>
>>
>>June 17, 2005 DE GUSTIBUS What Was Served With Brunch Was Bile By BRET
>>STEPHENS
>>    
>>
>
>Terry,
>
>you are committing the mistake of confusing a German asshole diplomate with
>me, just because I am German citizen. I am protesting aganst a certain
>callous attitude towards the lives of innocent people. The people I address,
>happen to be US citizens who are posters on this list. That does not mean
>that I am blindly anti American. If German, French or Canadian citizens
>would exhibit such attitudes, I would attack them just the same.
>
>humania
>  
>
Hubert,

I trust no one is blindly anti-American.  I meant this as only a 
reference point.
This diplomat seems to follow a herd instinct developed by Schroeder in 
his bid
to retain power.

There exists a strong anarchistic attitude amongst some people.  IMO, 
this is a
bad approach to life.  If one expects perfection in every action in this 
world
then not much would get done.  I'm reminded of Rumsfeld's "unknown 
unknowns."
The course of history is randomly affected by inaction as well as by action.

Terry


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
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veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]

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From sjvans at ameritech.net  Tue Jun 28 16:55:25 2005
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:55:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie dogs
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628003229.01e00f38@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050628165525.58643.qmail@web81202.mail.yahoo.com>

 
> < SCIENTISTS have created eerie zombie dogs,
> reanimating the canines after 
> several hours of clinical death in attempts to
> develop suspended animation 
> for humans. >
> 
> Ack.

No doubt this story was titled this way to take
advantage of the recent release of "Land of the Dead".
 Anything for a buck, I suppose.

sjv


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 17:12:55 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat] Professor
	BeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <030101c57b94$11b46b20$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050628171255.62018.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>  
> To impeach the President and let's say the Vice President as well,
> and perhaps the Secretary of Defence, why would you also need to
> impeach "most every elected official" ? 
> 
> I am sceptical of this particular claim of yours Mike. I wonder if
> you are just suggesting that most every elected official breaks their
> oath, in which case I would reply that that is really a separate
> matter when one is considering the elected position of the US
> President. 

The claim is valid because of the nature of the oath taking. Any
senator or congressman who has voted for any gun control law, for the
Patriot Act, the REAL ID Act (all 100 Senators), or any law claiming
authority under the commerce clause that does not strictly regulate the
practice of trade between the states (see US v Lopez for some good
writing on this) such as the Gun Free School Zones Act (which was
struck down in the above case for this reason), violates their oath of
office when they pass unconstitutional laws.

They will all state that it was their good faith belief that the bill
they were passing was constitutional. The oath of office states the
office holder will "protect and defend the Constitution of the United
States from all enemies, foreign and domestic." By passing
unconstitutional law, they themselves become domestic enemies of the
Constitution and should be removed from office. However, the courts
allow the 'good faith' defense in cases such as this.

Because of this, if we apply this to Bush and Cheney, if they testify
in court that they honestly felt they were upholding their oath of
office, and honestly believed that the intelligence was bad (based on
the fact that it has been so bad for so long) and that Saddam DID have
wmd (which is still, btw, unresolved given the shipments to Syria just
prior to the invasion and Saddams history of sending his weaponry to
other nations - he sent his fighter jets to Iran during the first Gulf
War) in spite of the claims of an intel agency with a very shoddy
record, then they walk.

To hold a new standard to Bush and Cheney would require that standard
be held to all members of congress. Not that I mind, I'd love to see
elected officials get booted from office every time a law they
sponsored or voted for was ruled unconstitutional. I've been advocating
such for quite a while. People on the opposite side of the argument in
this list, though, have previously opposed this idea, though it is
illustrative that they may now support the concept...

> An oath
> breaking major of a minor town is not as serious as an oathbreaking
> President with the power to appoint judges and send military forces
> into harms way. Yet the flip side is that an oathbreaking President
> perceived to be an oathbreaker that had gotten away with it would
> likely encourage others at lower levels of public trust to emulate
> the practice and likewise hope to escape be held to account by the 
> people.  

Sure, but that was a can of worms that was opened by Clinton, and every
Democrat in congress chose to cover his ass, so the damage is already
done, there is no public trust right now to defend or protect. Any
attempt by Democrats to impeach Bush would just be seen as
partisanship. Those in his own party most likely to support such an
attempt are regarded as RINOs - Republicans in name only, so they are
generally democrats in conservative states. Impeaching Bush would only
deepen the rancor and divisiveness in this nation.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 17:28:17 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] German diplomacy
In-Reply-To: <002501c57bb5$9b5c1f50$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <20050628172817.65690.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Hubert Mania <humania at t-online.de> wrote:

> > FOR Hubert:
> >
> >
> > June 17, 2005 DE GUSTIBUS What Was Served With Brunch Was Bile By
> BRET
> > STEPHENS
> 
> Terry,
> 
> you are committing the mistake of confusing a German asshole
> diplomate with me, just because I am German citizen. 

Hubert, the problem with this statement of disownment is that your
elected government selects its consular staff for its ability to be
polite and diplomatic. The sort of rudeness and adherence to dogma and
propaganda exhibited by this consul is the sort of thing one would
expect from a Soviet government diplomat. If this consul is the
standard of politeness that Germans are proud of these days, your own
behavior (in this debate, as well as numerous others with other members
of this list in past years on other topics) is fully explained.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 17:37:10 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:37:10 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
In-Reply-To: <20050628074651.73653.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050628074651.73653.qmail@web60524.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C18AC6.5050801@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>>They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up
>>captured and dead 
>>enemy.
>>And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of
>>'most' ie >50%
>>    
>>
>
>Well that could be biased by the Iraqi youths being
>talked into taking the higher risk missions and
>therfore getting killed more often. What we really
>  
>
No, the bulk of the suicide missions are foreigners.
The bulk of the conventional warfare is Iraqi.

>>Then stay and get kicked out.
>>A solid US defeat will make the world a better
>>place.
>>    
>>
>
>How would a solid US defeat make the world a better
>place? Let you buy more McDonald's french fries for
>the euro? Is that is what this all about? The United
>States is not perfect by any stretch of the
>imagination but we try to be better than we are.
>  
>
It would make any future president think twice about invading anyone 
they don't like.
One consequence of Bush's action is that any nation that does *not* want 
to be invaded better have WMDs.
A fact not lost on the Iranians.

>>I was one of the millions who demonstrated against
>>the war. The biggest 
>>demos in British history.
>>I'd like to see that arse licking poodle Blair hung
>>from a lamppost.
>>    
>>
>
>...  But whereas before when I protested the war it
>was because I thought we were doing the wrong thing
>for the right reasons. Now I support the war because I
>think we are doing the right thing for the wrong
>reasons. If there really is a democracy in Iraq right
>  
>
It's the wrong war for the wrong reasons and every day makes the world 
an unsafer place.

>now at least as real as the one here in the States
>then we did a good thing. If we leave too quickly then
>either the Baathist minority that oppressed the
>majority for so long resumes power or the clerics take
>over which would be just as bad.
>      Babylon used to be a center of civilization for
>the world. We could make it so once again. 
>  
>
Democracy is cannot be imposed against the will of the people.
IMO the only people who will embrace democracy are the Kurds.
All the US is going to have to show for this debacle is a Kurdish state 
at war with Turkey, a Sunni Islamic state in the middle and a Southern 
Shia state as a close ally of Iran.

>with our tax dollars.
>
> You forgot to
>  
>
>>mention that good 
>>old standby of 'they are only blowing themselves up
>>for the money'.
>>    
>>
>What? Who says this? 
>  
>
That's the standard line on suicide bombings in Israel and the occuppied 
lands.

>>Every time I read a post like yours I feel like
>>cheering those bodybags 
>>flying to the US.
>>    
>>
>
>What did I say? Do you disagree with me that the
>insurgents are gullible youths that are tricked into
>fighting for a cause that they hold no stake in? Would
>you disagree with me that most of the U.S. marines
>that are stationed there are gullible youths that are
>tricked into fighting for a cause that they hold no
>stake in? How is what I said condescending? 
>
>  
>
I would say that the insurgents know full well what they are getting 
into and have a far greater stake in the war than any US marine.

>>Hey - it's only a bunch of freakin ragheads - let's
>>go kick some ass - 
>>yeeehaaaaaaaw!
>>    
>>
>
>sigh... we're not all from Texas.
>  
>
"These young men come from the poorest of families
and are lied to every step of the way. From the moment
when some interesting stranger invites him to a feast

with wine, drugs, and dancing girls. To the speeches
about all the fire and brimstone that the infidels
from the Great Satan of the West must suffer for
having defiled the youth's homeland with their foul
presence. To the moment he straps on the bomb
believing himself soon to be in Paradise. A Paradise
where the wine will be even finer than the wine at the
feast and the dancing girls will be houris. Beautiful
angelic virgins whose sole (soul?) purpose in the
after-life is to pleasure the warriors that were brave
enough to martyr themselves for the cause of Islam.
     It is these recruiters and leiutenants that the
military must nab to break the resistance. The rest
would just as easily surrender for a hot meal."    


What you wrote there are the ravings of a brainwashed ignoramus.
 

>>    
>>
>Well if they want us to leave let them vote us away.
>If over half of the Iraqis want us gone, I say we
>start packing.
>
>
>  
>
All opinion polls taken so far show the majority of Iraqis want the US 
to leave.
The Quisling government does not, for obvious reasons.
And if that govt did call for the US to leave, and started to rescind 
all those copntracts which have effecively looted the country on behalf 
of the multinationals,  it would be replaced by the US on some trumped 
up charge.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 19:15:53 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
In-Reply-To: <42C18AC6.5050801@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050628191553.33424.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> >>They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up
> >>captured and dead 
> >>enemy.
> >>And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of
> >>'most' ie >50%
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Well that could be biased by the Iraqi youths being
> >talked into taking the higher risk missions and
> >therfore getting killed more often. What we really
> >  
> >
> No, the bulk of the suicide missions are foreigners.
> The bulk of the conventional warfare is Iraqi.

One more misnomer. Guerilla insurgents do not engage in 'conventional
warfare'. They too are war criminals under the Geneva Conventions, for
not wearing uniforms, or answering to a command structure, and most
importantly, for hiding behind unarmed civilians in civilian
facilities. Whether they are 'patriots' fighting for restoration of the
Baathist (stalinist) revolution or not is immaterial to the fact that
they use illegitimate tactics. They may have no choice but to use such
tactics due to the force ratio between sides, but when you do use such
tactics, you must accept being a criminal operating outside the laws of
war and must accept the possible consequences. During and after WWII,
when Germans fought out of uniform, the allies just lined them up
against a wall and shot them all, as that is what the Conventions say
is legitimate penalty for such war crimes.

The insurgents are certainly NOT patriotic in the sense of representing
all Iraqis. The Kurds and the Shiits make up the majority of the
population and are thus, in todays world, legitimate claimants to
sovereignty, no matter how many or few Sunnis choose to participate in
government. The insurgents are clearly representative ONLY of the
former Baathist ruling class and its followers.
 
> >now at least as real as the one here in the States
> >then we did a good thing. If we leave too quickly then
> >either the Baathist minority that oppressed the
> >majority for so long resumes power or the clerics take
> >over which would be just as bad.
> >      Babylon used to be a center of civilization for
> >the world. We could make it so once again. 
> >  
> >
> Democracy is cannot be imposed against the will of the people.
> IMO the only people who will embrace democracy are the Kurds.
> All the US is going to have to show for this debacle is a Kurdish
> state at war with Turkey, a Sunni Islamic state in the middle and a
> Southern Shia state as a close ally of Iran.

The Shiite Iraqis accept secular democratic government, along with the
Kurds. A number of Sunni groups are also participating. Only die-hard
baathists and their followers continue to resist.

> >> You forgot to mention that good old standby of 'they are only
> >> blowing themselves up for the money'.
> >>    
> >>
> >What? Who says this? 
> >  
> >
> That's the standard line on suicide bombings in Israel and the
> occuppied lands.

Sure is, and it is truth. Note how the suicide bombings in Israel have
dropped off now that Saddam is unable to pay Palestinian families $50k
when their children suicide bomb others? The economics of terrorism
follow a definite supply/demand price curve...

In Iraq, though, an interesting thing is being found in car bomb
wreckage: drivers bodies are being found with their feet duct-taped to
the gas pedals and wrists handcuffed to the steering wheels.

> > >
> >What did I say? Do you disagree with me that the
> >insurgents are gullible youths that are tricked into
> >fighting for a cause that they hold no stake in? Would
> >you disagree with me that most of the U.S. marines
> >that are stationed there are gullible youths that are
> >tricked into fighting for a cause that they hold no
> >stake in? How is what I said condescending? 
> >
> >  
> >
> I would say that the insurgents know full well what they are getting 
> into and have a far greater stake in the war than any US marine.

Of course, loss of Baath Party rule means every thug insurgent is going
to have to get a real job.

> >  
> >
> "These young men come from the poorest of families
> and are lied to every step of the way. From the moment
> when some interesting stranger invites him to a feast
> with wine, drugs, and dancing girls. ..snip..
>      It is these recruiters and leiutenants that the
> military must nab to break the resistance. The rest
> would just as easily surrender for a hot meal."    
> 
> 
> What you wrote there are the ravings of a brainwashed ignoramus.

What you write sounds like the propaganda of the British Baath Party.
Is that what "The Consensus" is about?


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Tue Jun 28 19:35:34 2005
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:35:34 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] [Civil] NH development company seeks eminent domain
	on Souters residence.
Message-ID: <06685B63-18C9-43F3-ADEB-A6F2FB7A4957@bonfireproductions.com>


Since so much of our list talks about individual rights and freedoms  
(or, lack thereof), I thought many of you might enjoy this news.

A private developer in New Hampshire is approaching the Weare, NH  
Board of Selectmen seeking the property at  34 Cilley Hill Road, the  
residence of Justice Souter, to develop a hotel complex.

It does not appear to be a hoax.

http://www.freenation.tv/hotellostliberty2.html



]3
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From benboc at lineone.net  Tue Jun 28 19:56:31 2005
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:56:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: ExtroBritannia
In-Reply-To: <200506280544.j5S5iER29882@tick.javien.com>
References: <200506280544.j5S5iER29882@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <42C1AB6F.5060506@lineone.net>

 > From: Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com>
 > Subject: [extropy-chat] ExtroBritannia

 > Are they still doing regular meetings?

Yup, although no June meeting.

Look at the yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia) 
for notices about meetings.

I believe there will be one sometime next month, probably in the middle 
of it, due to Fabio having been away on holiday.

ben


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Jun 28 20:19:53 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:19:53 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: Zombie Dogs
Message-ID: <42C1B0E9.6000701@mindspring.com>

As I recall, a biochemist named Robert Cornish achieved a certain fame 
or notoriety back in the 1930's by asphyxiating dogs with nitrogen and 
then reviving them. The 1940's and 1950's Fortean writer R. DeWitt 
Miller devoted a page or so to Cornish's experiments in his 1947 book 
_Forgotten Mysteries_, and I also recall reading an article on Cornish 
and his revived dogs in FATE in the early 1950's.

Roy Stilling wrote:

>Boffins create zombie dogs
>By Nick Buchan of NEWS.com.au
>June 27, 2005
>
>SCIENTISTS have created eerie zombie dogs, reanimating the canines
>after several hours of clinical death in attempts to develop suspended
>animation for humans.
>US scientists have succeeded in reviving the dogs after three hours of
>clinical death, paving the way for trials on humans within years.
>
>Pittsburgh's Safar Centre for Resuscitation Research has developed a
>technique in which subject's veins are drained of blood and filled
>with an ice-cold salt solution.
>
>The animals are considered scientifically dead, as they stop breathing
>and have no heartbeat or brain activity.
>
>But three hours later, their blood is replaced and the zombie dogs are
>brought back to life with an electric shock.
>
>Plans to test the technique on humans should be realised within a
>year, according to the Safar Centre. 
>
>[full story at
>< http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html >]



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 20:34:28 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:34:28 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
In-Reply-To: <20050628191553.33424.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050628191553.33424.qmail@web30712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C1B454.2030208@neopax.com>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>One more misnomer. Guerilla insurgents do not engage in 'conventional
>warfare'. They too are war criminals under the Geneva Conventions, for
>not wearing uniforms, or answering to a command structure, and most
>importantly, for hiding behind unarmed civilians in civilian
>facilities. Whether they are 'patriots' fighting for restoration of the
>  
>
According to the US there are a number of 'command structures' from 
Baathist to AQ.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/
Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to 
the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts, 8 June 1977.

Art. 44. Combatants and prisoners of war

1. Any combatant, as defined in Article 43, who falls into the power of 
an adverse Party shall be a prisoner of war.

2. While all combatants are obliged to comply with the rules of 
international law applicable in armed conflict, violations of these 
rules shall not deprive a combatant of his right to be a combatant or, 
if he falls into the power of an adverse Party, of his right to be a 
prisoner of war, except as provided in paragraphs 3 and 4.

3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from 
the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish 
themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an 
attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, 
however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to 
the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish 
himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in 
such situations, he carries his arms openly:

(a) during each military engagement, and (b) during such time as he is 
visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment 
preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.

Acts which comply with the requirements of this paragraph shall not be 
considered as perfidious within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 (c).

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:26:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [Civil] NH development company seeks eminent
	domain on Souters residence.
In-Reply-To: <06685B63-18C9-43F3-ADEB-A6F2FB7A4957@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <20050628212658.50456.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Actually, it is a project I and Ed Naile, of the Coalition of New
Hampshire Taxpayers, have been working on.... Good to see its getting
coverage.

--- Bret Kulakovich <bret at bonfireproductions.com> wrote:

> 
> Since so much of our list talks about individual rights and freedoms 
> (or, lack thereof), I thought many of you might enjoy this news.
> A private developer in New Hampshire is approaching the Weare, NH  
> Board of Selectmen seeking the property at  34 Cilley Hill Road, the 
> residence of Justice Souter, to develop a hotel complex.
> 
> It does not appear to be a hoax.
> 
> http://www.freenation.tv/hotellostliberty2.html

We are mulling a theme park that will have rides such as "The Black
Hole: Your taxes at work", and "The Slippery Slope: Bill of Rights
Erosion". The hotel will be built like a concentration camp or a slave
ship/slave quarters and will serve gruel in the restaurant...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail 
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: 
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 21:33:58 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:33:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
In-Reply-To: <42C18AC6.5050801@neopax.com>
Message-ID: <20050628213358.59743.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> It would make any future president think twice about
> invading anyone 
> they don't like.
> One consequence of Bush's action is that any nation
> that does *not* want 
> to be invaded better have WMDs.
> A fact not lost on the Iranians.

That was a given BEFORE we invaded Iraq. Reference
Pakistan, India, and North Korea. Hell if I had my own
little banana republic somewhere, I would have been
trying to get nukes too. Not because of the U.S. but
because of the U.N. I noticed back when I was kid that
the U.N. takes countries with nukes more seriously
than those without. Wanna sit with the big boys at the
U.N. meetings? Get some nukes. It's been like that
since the 60's at least. 


> It's the wrong war for the wrong reasons and every
> day makes the world 
> an unsafer place.

     Unsafer? How? What are you so afraid of? The
Americans or the terrorists? Are you suddenly of a
mind to start appeasing anyone willing plant a car
bomb? Or do you actually believe that the Bush-Reich
will be invading the U.K. next?
     You really think that an immediate U.S. pullout
of Iraq and the ensuing four-faction civil war
(interim government vs. Baathists vs. Islamic fundies
vs. Kurds) there would be better for the world? Or do
think that the resulting blood bath be a small price
for humanity to pay so that we insufferable Americans
get what we deserve?  

> >
> Democracy is cannot be imposed against the will of
> the people.

How can we be sure they want it or not when there
isn't even a word for democracy their language? The
only way to find out is to let them test drive it for
a little while and see if they like it better than
they were used to. If they really don't want it, they
can go back to killing one another.


> >
> I would say that the insurgents know full well what
> they are getting 
> into and have a far greater stake in the war than
> any US marine.
 Oh yeah. After the marines leave, they can go back
gassing the kurds, strong arming the people, and
building palaces for themselves. Yeah you're right
they do have a pretty big stake in this war.


> 
> What you wrote there are the ravings of a
> brainwashed ignoramus.

Ok. I guess that using a few historical facts about
Muslim war-tactics dating back to the Crusades and my
imagination to profile a modern-day Al-Quaeda
recruitment scenario is definately evidence of
brain-washing and ignorance.  

> All opinion polls taken so far show the majority of
> Iraqis want the US 
> to leave.

If that is truly the case then I would not be against
the U.S. leaving. Despite the tremendous loss of
credibility and near disasterous consequences it would
have for the United States economically and
politically, if the MAJORITY of Iraqis want us to
leave, then I would say "withdraw". The U.S. would
survive and would recover economically in a few years.
I say we have gone out on a limb far enough to cast
pearls before swine. 

> The Quisling government does not, for obvious
> reasons.
> And if that govt did call for the US to leave, and
> started to rescind 
> all those copntracts which have effecively looted
> the country on behalf 
> of the multinationals, 

What multinationals do you mean? The French ones or
the German ones? Oh of course you mean the American
multinationals that rule the world from the smoky
Bilderberger boardrooms in Switzerland.  


 it would be replaced by the
> US on some trumped 
> up charge.

     So what is this really about, Dirk? Are you that
afraid of an American Empire? Or are you just upset
that the sun finally set on YOUR empire. It strikes me
as ironic that almost all of the countries that accuse
us of imperialism have all had empires of their own.
Let's see England? yup. France? yup. Germany? Well
they tried REAL hard so I will give them credit. But
if that's what you are worried about don't.
     The very thought of an American Empire is
ludicrous. The United States doesn't need to take over
the world. The world immigrates to us. The United
States IS the world in a microcosm. In Los Angeles
alone there are more Mexicans than any city in the
world other than Mexico City, more Koreans than any
other city than Seoul, and more Iranians than any
other than Tehran. The Iranians here I talk to say we
should liberate Iran next. But you can't trust those
Iranian Americans to tell the truth because they are
stupid, brainwashed, greedy, arrogant, lazy Americans
like the rest of us. YeeeHaaww!

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Jun 28 21:37:32 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:37:32 -0700
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>
	<03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>


On Jun 28, 2005, at 4:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>> I find many things objectionable.  Hubert spoke from his heart.   
>> I  for one understand how he feels.
>>
>
> I think I do too. But we are not mere brutes whose feelings are
> all that matters, we are homo sapiens. It doesn't take heaps of  
> imagination to understand a hound howling because it has a thorn
> in its paw. Its just that the howling is a poor means of  
> communication.

Well you watch for a time to say your piece in a balanced way.  You  
perceive the conversation being more and more unbalanced.  That gets  
frustrating.   Occasionally one or another such watcher speaks out in  
frustration and anger.  Instead of hearing the cause the frustration  
and anger is reacted to and we generally learn nothing.  Everyone is  
justified and no one learns.

>
>> If it does not need a response then why are you raising it up and   
>> suggesting a tally?
>>
>
> That was poor wording. I should not have said that. I don't want
> a tally. I want to work over issues with people who want to work
> them over.

OK.

>
>> Personally I am letting a lot ride because it is not worth my  
>> energy  and time to tease apart the in my opinion ridiculous  
>> justifications  for the war or its continuance.
>>
>
> That is fair enough. Your time is yours.
>
>> Nor is it worth my time to  continuously check Mike as he in my  
>> opinion often gives  libertarianism a bad name.
>>
>
> After the "as" and with the "often" that is not fair in my opinion and
> its flamebait to Mike.
>

That is my considered opinion as stated and there is nothing unfair  
in saying so.  I am certainly not alone among libertarians in having  
this opinion.   That his sig makes prominent his party affiliation  
leaves the inference that he speaks as a libertarian on the issues.   
As many of his positions, as he has pointed out, differ from that of  
many libertarians it is no great stretch to what I said above.


>> Nor is it worth my time to engage in  legalistic pissing contests  
>> devoid of any real understanding or wisdom.
>>
>
> Okay. So don't. But please be fair about it, if you have no real  
> interest
> then stay out until you do have an interest as you can only add heat
> not light. Not because you couldn't add light if you did care but  
> because
> you don't care.

I said no such thing.  I care very much.  I don't care for pseudo- 
intellectual bullshit that pretends to be reasoned discourse.

- samantha




From dirk at neopax.com  Tue Jun 28 21:50:13 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:50:13 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again
In-Reply-To: <20050628213358.59743.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050628213358.59743.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C1C615.7060508@neopax.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>  
>
>>It's the wrong war for the wrong reasons and every
>>day makes the world 
>>an unsafer place.
>>    
>>
>
>     Unsafer? How? What are you so afraid of? The
>Americans or the terrorists? Are you suddenly of a
>  
>
Both.
The US is effectively training the next generation of terrorists who now 
have a real appreciation for the fear that WMDs strike into the West.
They are also now getting to meet the people who made them for Saddam.

>mind to start appeasing anyone willing plant a car
>bomb? Or do you actually believe that the Bush-Reich
>will be invading the U.K. next?
>     You really think that an immediate U.S. pullout
>of Iraq and the ensuing four-faction civil war
>(interim government vs. Baathists vs. Islamic fundies
>vs. Kurds) there would be better for the world? Or do
>think that the resulting blood bath be a small price
>for humanity to pay so that we insufferable Americans
>get what we deserve?  
>
>  
>
The best option would be to break up Iraq into three nations, and then 
leave.
It's what will happen anyway now.

>>I would say that the insurgents know full well what
>>they are getting 
>>into and have a far greater stake in the war than
>>any US marine.
>>    
>>
> Oh yeah. After the marines leave, they can go back
>gassing the kurds, strong arming the people, and
>building palaces for themselves. Yeah you're right
>they do have a pretty big stake in this war.
>
>  
>
It's *their* nation - not yours.

>>The Quisling government does not, for obvious
>>reasons.
>>And if that govt did call for the US to leave, and
>>started to rescind 
>>all those copntracts which have effecively looted
>>the country on behalf 
>>of the multinationals, 
>>    
>>
>
>What multinationals do you mean? The French ones or
>the German ones? Oh of course you mean the American
>multinationals that rule the world from the smoky
>Bilderberger boardrooms in Switzerland.  
>
>  
>
The ones that have bought up Iraq will do for starters.

> it would be replaced by the
>  
>
>>US on some trumped 
>>up charge.
>>    
>>
>
>     So what is this really about, Dirk? Are you that
>afraid of an American Empire? Or are you just upset
>that the sun finally set on YOUR empire. It strikes me
>as ironic that almost all of the countries that accuse
>us of imperialism have all had empires of their own.
>Let's see England? yup. France? yup. Germany? Well
>they tried REAL hard so I will give them credit. But
>if that's what you are worried about don't.
>  
>
Then maybe you will credit us with being able to recognise the obvious - 
US imperial ambitions.
Wrapped in a self serving cloak of hypocrisy.
And it is modelled on the British empire - one of military force backing 
commercial enterprises and using puppet rulers.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 27/06/2005



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jun 28 22:10:42 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:10:42 +1000
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com><42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com><002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z><038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc><5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com><03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>
Message-ID: <049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

>> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I find many things objectionable.  Hubert spoke from his heart.   
>>> I  for one understand how he feels.
>>>
>>
>> I think I do too. But we are not mere brutes whose feelings are
>> all that matters, we are homo sapiens. It doesn't take heaps of  
>> imagination to understand a hound howling because it has a thorn
>> in its paw. Its just that the howling is a poor means of  
>> communication.
> 
> Well you watch for a time to say your piece in a balanced way. 
> You perceive the conversation being more and more unbalanced.
> That gets frustrating. 

I know what you mean. I'm sure Hubert does too. 

> Occasionally one or another such watcher speaks out in  
> frustration and anger.  Instead of hearing the cause the frustration  
> and anger is reacted to and we generally learn nothing. 

Yes.

> Everyone is justified and no one learns.

No everyone isn't justified. And some do learn even in poorer 
learning environments but certainly richer learning environments
are worth striving for, and they are the ones in which courtesy
and respect are shown and strong language is reserved until its
use is appropriate as well it might be, in my opinion, as a part
of a full repertoire of communication tools. 

Still, one abuses the tools and spoils the communication if one
uses the strong language too readily. And one likely hits ones
own credibility and standing in the community. 
 
>>
>>> If it does not need a response then why are you raising it up and   
>>> suggesting a tally?
>>>
>>
>> That was poor wording. I should not have said that. I don't want
>> a tally. I want to work over issues with people who want to work
>> them over.
> 
> OK.
> 
>>
>>> Personally I am letting a lot ride because it is not worth my  
>>> energy  and time to tease apart the in my opinion ridiculous  
>>> justifications  for the war or its continuance.
>>>
>>
>> That is fair enough. Your time is yours.
>>
>>> Nor is it worth my time to  continuously check Mike as he in my  
>>> opinion often gives  libertarianism a bad name.
>>>
>>
>> After the "as" and with the "often" that is not fair in my opinion and
>> its flamebait to Mike.
>>
> 
> That is my considered opinion as stated and there is nothing unfair  
> in saying so. 

In that case, if it is your considered opinion, I will step back on the
point and it is a matter for you and Mike. 

> I am certainly not alone among libertarians in having  
> this opinion.   That his sig makes prominent his party affiliation  
> leaves the inference that he speaks as a libertarian on the issues.   
> As many of his positions, as he has pointed out, differ from that of  
> many libertarians it is no great stretch to what I said above.

As a reader and as someone generally interested in your views I 
don't want to have to stretch to find ways to agree with your
disapproval of another poster. If I have to stretch to understand
what you are saying in more constructive, more problem-solving
oriented pursuits, then that is another matter.   
 
>>> Nor is it worth my time to engage in  legalistic pissing contests  
>>> devoid of any real understanding or wisdom.
>>>
>>
>> Okay. So don't. But please be fair about it, if you have no real  
>> interest
>> then stay out until you do have an interest as you can only add heat
>> not light. Not because you couldn't add light if you did care but  
>> because
>> you don't care.
> 
> I said no such thing.  I care very much.  I don't care for pseudo- 
> intellectual bullshit that pretends to be reasoned discourse.

I don't care for pseudo-intellectual bullshit or pretense either. 

But intelligent discourse is worthy and honest discourse. And,
I hope you will agree, discourse about the use of law and of the
legal structures that both support and constrict us is not mere
legalistic naval gazing and grandstanding. 

We need to be able to understand the law and cite the law in
order to teach each other the law. And I want to learn it.

----

Perhaps, unless Hubert wants right of reply, this Meta has gone
past its usefulness and we might relabel future posts to reflect
content?

Regards,
Brett Paatsch



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 28 22:45:15 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Iraq Report
Message-ID: <20050628224515.99049.qmail@web60517.mail.yahoo.com>

Well I finally found a pretty comprehensive report on
the current security situation in Iraq from the CSIS.
You can dowload here:

http://www.csis.org/features/050408_IraqiSecForces.pdf


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 28 22:52:13 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:52:13 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] A Quantum Computer on the market by 2008?
In-Reply-To: <003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
	<9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com>
	<015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C5A073C3-6197-43DD-8298-9F68EE091D1A@mac.com>
	<003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628175139.01d9da28@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 03:04 PM 6/27/2005 -0400, JKC wrote:

><http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/forward_quantum.asp>http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/07/issue/forward_quantum.asp

a friend comments:

This sounds completely screwy to me. Factoring large numbers is *easier*
than the traveling salesman problem: the latter is NP-complete, while the
factoring problem falls short of NP-completeness. The last time I looked
into these issues with regard to quantum computing, I read claims that it
was still undetermined whether quantum computers could "crack" the general
NP-complete problem, but it was known that they could do quick factoring.
D-Wave seems to be claiming that they have a solution to the hard problem
that isn't yet capable of handling an easier problem.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 28 23:16:21 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:16:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] android, sort of
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628181559.01da6c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

assuming this is true:

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=404



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Tue Jun 28 23:33:10 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:33:10 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] android, sort of
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628181559.01da6c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628181559.01da6c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C1DE36.7030700@humanenhancement.com>

I'm pretty sure it is.

Video can be found here:

http://www.androidscience.com/links.html

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)

Damien Broderick wrote:

> assuming this is true:
>
> http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=404
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jun 28 23:44:52 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:44:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] android, sort of
In-Reply-To: <42C1DE36.7030700@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628181559.01da6c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C1DE36.7030700@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628184236.01d2d728@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


>
>Video can be found here:
>
>http://www.androidscience.com/links.html

They look drugged, majorly autistic, or suffering from Parkinsonism. 
Impressive but uncanny.

Damien Broderick 



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jun 29 00:27:18 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:18 +1000
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat]
	ProfessorBeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
References: <20050628171255.62018.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <04bd01c57c41$4ea93e40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
>> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>  
>> To impeach the President and let's say the Vice President as well,
>> and perhaps the Secretary of Defence, why would you also need to
>> impeach "most every elected official" ? 
>> 
>> I am sceptical of this particular claim of yours Mike. I wonder if
>> you are just suggesting that most every elected official breaks their
>> oath, in which case I would reply that that is really a separate
>> matter when one is considering the elected position of the US
>> President. 
> 
> The claim is valid because of the nature of the oath taking. Any
> senator or congressman who has voted for any gun control law, for the
> Patriot Act, the REAL ID Act (all 100 Senators), or any law claiming
> authority under the commerce clause that does not strictly regulate the
> practice of trade between the states (see US v Lopez for some good
> writing on this) such as the Gun Free School Zones Act (which was
> struck down in the above case for this reason), violates their oath of
> office when they pass unconstitutional laws.
>
 > They will all state that it was their good faith belief that the bill
> they were passing was constitutional. The oath of office states the
> office holder will "protect and defend the Constitution of the United
> States from all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Actually, in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 8, of my hardcopy printout of
the US Constitution, the link to which you provided earlier, it says of
the President:

' Before he enter into the Execution of his Office, he shall take the 
following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that
I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States,
and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States." ' 

I don't know in what other documents other oaths for lesser offices
of public trust might reside, perhaps it is even the case that the oath
for lesser offices are derivative of this one, which in itself would be 
instructive ? Nonetheless, I think it might well be significant that the
drafters and of the Constitution saw fit to have a specific clause 
relating to the Presidential Oath. A Presidential Oath, is, and must
be, a personal Oath of honour of the most powerful executive in the
land to the people of that land. 

> By passing
> unconstitutional law, they themselves become domestic enemies of the
> Constitution and should be removed from office. However, the courts
> allow the 'good faith' defense in cases such as this.

I wonder if the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS), like
me, might take a particularly firm view in the case of a President, and 
especially in the case of a President that actually did send in the armed
forces which should be the most serious and last choice of such a 
Constitutionally empowered and people entrusted Executive. 

Has the SCOTUS ever, to your knowledge, allowed the good faith
defence in a case such as this.(ie. a US President, having deployed the
armed forces to invade a UN member state for weapons of mass
destruction that were subsequently not found) I, for one, cannot recall
a case such as, or substantially like this, but perhaps my understanding
of US history is letting me down.
 
> Because of this, if  we apply this to Bush and Cheney, if  they
> testify in court that they honestly felt they were upholding their oath
> of office, and honestly believed that the intelligence was bad (based on
> the fact that it has been so bad for so long) and that Saddam DID have
> wmd (which is still, btw, unresolved given the shipments to Syria just
> prior to the invasion and Saddams history of sending his weaponry to
> other nations - he sent his fighter jets to Iran during the first Gulf
> War) in spite of the claims of an intel agency with a very shoddy
> record, then they walk.

Well of course if they are innocent and did act in good faith then they
should walk.

However,  if they testify in the SCOTUS say, I'm not sure that's the
appropriate forum but whatever it is that's a detail, that they honestly
"felt" they were upholding their oath of office, and honestly believed 
that the intelligence was bad (based on the fact that it had been bad
for so long),  -- the SCOTUS would presumably be empowered 
then to check the facts that were asserted by the defendants against
other facts that might be presented perhaps by intelligence officers
or other citizens of the United States including military executives.  
 
All of this would be an excellent process to go through in my view
to underscore the immense importance that the United States 
supreme court places in oath taking and in justice being done in 
any case, even if the President, Vice President and Secretary of
Defense "walk", their characters will have been examined and 
shown to be clean if they are.  

> To hold a new standard to Bush and Cheney would require that
> standard be held to all members of congress. Not that I mind, I'd
> love to see elected officials get booted from office every time a 
> law they sponsored or voted for was ruled unconstitutional. I've 
> been advocating such for quite a while.

I think a lot of people that, as they say, hunger and thirst for justice
might like that too :-)

> People on the opposite side of the argument in
> this list, though, have previously opposed this idea, though it is
> illustrative that they may now support the concept...
> 
>> An oath
>> breaking major of a minor town is not as serious as an oathbreaking
>> President with the power to appoint judges and send military forces
>> into harms way. Yet the flip side is that an oathbreaking President
>> perceived to be an oathbreaker that had gotten away with it would
>> likely encourage others at lower levels of public trust to emulate
>> the practice and likewise hope to escape be held to account by the 
>> people.  
> 
> Sure, but that was a can of worms that was opened by Clinton, and
> every Democrat in congress chose to cover his ass, so the damage 
> is already done, there is no public trust right now to defend or protect.

Is that a fact? I don't really understand the impeachment process 
quite well enough obviously, as an Australian I confess I wasn't paying
all that much attention to the legal consequences of Clinton deciding
to US the Presidential office as an adjuct to gained sexual favours from
an intern, but I suppose I should have, it is pretty unsavory when one
thinks of it.  Not, however, anywhere near by a country mile, as wrong
though as sending one's nations armed service men and women into
harms way on a pretext or a lie. 

> Any attempt by Democrats to impeach Bush would just be seen as
> partisanship. 

As a matter of fact I am not a Democrat. You are not a Democrat
so far as I know so if we can countenance it as a possible path for
a higher purpose then I am sure others, probably including card 
carrying Republicans might too, especially once the thing got 
rolling. 

>Those in his own party most likely to support such an
> attempt are regarded as RINOs - Republicans in name only, so 
> they are generally democrats in conservative states.

I first saw the term RINO only recently in The Australian, interestingly
it was used in relation to the new US Ambassador to Australia and
in relation to Senator John McCain, both Republicans, and both men
who have served their country in battle as I understand it. 

> Impeaching Bush would only
> deepen the rancor and divisiveness in this nation.
 
I wonder about that. 

I certainly have no doubt that the US could find many capable
men and women for that matter to hold the Presidency, the 
Vice Presidency and the Secretary of Defence positions. 

So the process of impeachment need not necessarily impact
upon the real need to address appropriately the separate 
question of what is best to do on the ground in Iraq. 

In fact I have some ideas that could be useful in Iraq and
in optimally reforming the UN but I am not sure that this is
the right time or that the world with the current US President
in the white house is one in which I want to voice them. 
 
I did try, on this list, with my peers as it were, to articulate a
game theoretic way to avoid the meat grinding and it was to
no avail, so I have learned that timing matters and the people
to whom one conveys ideas must themselves have enough of
a handle on the world in which they live to be able to weight
those ideas. There was little point me talking about the UN
Charter if no one understood or read it in the audience I was
talking too.  I want to learn from my mistake and I want others
to as well. Let us not be in a position where we cannot
contribute ideas towards solutions because we do not understand
another great achievement in the history of civilization which is the
US Constitution. 

Regards,
Brett Paatsch 



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Wed Jun 29 00:40:45 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:40:45 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Not exactly a warm welcome
Message-ID: <42C1EE0D.7030702@mindspring.com>

Sierra Vista (Arizona) Herald, Sunday, 26 June 2005

*This is another dispatch from Glen and Julie Bradley, former Sierra Vistans
who are on their way around the world in their boat, the C'est Assez.*


"First of all, I recommend you tell everyone you are Canadian.  
Egyptians will
never tell you to your face, but because of the U.S. support to Israel and
the invasion of Iraq, Americans are second only to Israelis in lack of
esteem over here.  Take my advice.  You'll be safer and have a better
experience all around."

Those words shocked us, but this was sound advice from our travel agent
at the marina in Abu Tig.

The travel agent was right.  The opening phrase of most greetings in
Egypt is "Where are you from?"

Until we arrived in Cairo we did not know that all Americans and Israelis
visiting Egypt are given armed security guards who accompany them
everywhere except the hotel.

To us this seemed very unsafe.  To walk down the street with a bodyguard
or escorted by a police vehicle is like shouting that here is someone worth
attacking!  It's like waving a flag to suicide bombers or terrorists.

We were able to make this "Canada" ruse work because Glen, Bob, Cyn
and I were usually accompanied by our English-speaking Egyptian guide
who agreed with the necessity and understood our situation.

Good thing because she was incredibly hassled about us by every policeman
we saw.  Many times each day our vehicle was stopped when they saw us
through the window.

Then the driver and guide explained to the police that we were non-Jewish
Canadians and not Americans.  It also happened walking in the streets a
couple of times so it got to be that we clammed up around any public
place because armed guards and police were so numerous.

Even posing as Canadians, we had to sign a statement that we felt safe
and did not want an armed guard on forays out of the hotel.

The down side is that now it is so common for everyone from
English-speaking nations to say "we're Canadian" that the police
rarely believe it.

The other insight was the candid comments from Egyptians concerning Canada's
American neighbors.

Gee, they sure don't like America very much right now.  It seems that
Egyptians, like other Mideasterners, feel as though "they could be next" if
they don't truckle to the demands of U.S. politics.

As crazy as it sounds, there is considerable opinion here that the U.S.
president and many Americans hate Moslems.  They call it the modern
crusade against Islam.  One shopkeeper gave America what he believed
the worst insult possible by telling us, "Don't worry, soon the U.S.
dollar is weaker than Canadian dollar."

About the fifth time during one day that our van was stopped our guide
asked the policeman, "Are there four Americans missing?  Why does
everyone keep stopping us--this has never happened so often before."
Of course, no one answered her question, but we were beginning to
feel a little bit like fugitives evading detection.  We now speculate
that it was Cyn and me--both 5 feet 9 inches tall--one blonde and
one redhead that stood out so obviously.

Our guide told us that because of the atmosphere, many Americans,
Australians and Britons say they are Canadian to avoid the hassles.

It worked for us, but I think soon everyone will catch on.  It was
hard to not laugh when one shopkeeper told us, "Welcome Canadians!
Egyptians like Canadians and Canadians must like Egypt because in
the past year we have soooo many Canadians.  Thankfully, not so
many Americans!"

In any case, we owe our Canadian neighbors a big thank you for the
temporary adoption.  All four of us were quite happy to return to
trusty C'est Assez after our 10 days of land travel.

It looks like a weather window is coming and we need to get "outta
here" and head for the Mediterranean.  They still like us there,
don't they?


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 01:00:41 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat]
	ProfessorBeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <04bd01c57c41$4ea93e40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050629010041.2827.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Let us not be in a position where we cannot
contribute ideas towards solutions because we do not
understand
another great achievement in the history of
civilization which is the
US Constitution. 



Thanks, Brett. It's comforting to know that the U.S.
is not universally hated.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 01:22:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:22:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re: [extropy-chat]
	ProfessorBeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
In-Reply-To: <04bd01c57c41$4ea93e40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050629012258.55698.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
> Actually, in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 8, of my hardcopy printout
> of the US Constitution, the link to which you provided earlier, it
> says of the President:
> 
> ' Before he enter into the Execution of his Office, he shall take the
> following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that
> I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United
> States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and
> defend the Constitution of the United States." ' 
> 
> I don't know in what other documents other oaths for lesser offices
> of public trust might reside, perhaps it is even the case that the
> oath for lesser offices are derivative of this one, which in itself
> would be instructive? Nonetheless, I think it might well be
> significant that the
> drafters and of the Constitution saw fit to have a specific clause 
> relating to the Presidential Oath. A Presidential Oath, is, and must
> be, a personal Oath of honour of the most powerful executive in the
> land to the people of that land. 

Of course, and every word of that oath when it is sworn to or affirmed
is open to the understanding of the person making the oath or
affirmation, i.e. "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is'
is..."

> 
> I wonder if the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS), like
> me, might take a particularly firm view in the case of a President,
> and especially in the case of a President that actually did send in
> the armed
> forces which should be the most serious and last choice of such a 
> Constitutionally empowered and people entrusted Executive. 

The executive is the commander in chief of the armed forces, and has
war powers of his own beyond the power to declare war that the Congress
has. Primarily so the President can do his job when congress is not in
session, it is also to prevent a treasonous faction from hamstringing
the nation (as the southern states attempted by walking out of congress
in 1860, leaving it in a rump state) by rumping or filibustering.

How the President prosecutes his executive job is beyond the authority
of congress to second guess. If they pass specific legislation that
mandates specific things and he doesn't do them, or else they prohibit
certain things and he does them (as was the case during the Iran-Contra
issue in the Reagan era), the congress can then build a case against
him.

> 
> Has the SCOTUS ever, to your knowledge, allowed the good faith
> defence in a case such as this.(ie. a US President, having deployed
> the armed forces to invade a UN member state for weapons of mass
> destruction that were subsequently not found) I, for one, cannot
> recall a case such as, or substantially like this, but perhaps my
> understanding of US history is letting me down.

There is no such case, however Vietnam comes very close in that the
Tonkin Gulf Incident is widely regarded as a hoax, and furthermore, the
congressional authorization of force clearly states one of the two
goals of the use of force is to enforce all UN resolutions in Iraq (not
just those having to do with WMD), so there really is nothing to
dispute: Bush was doing what congress told him to do, not one bit more
or less. If Bush was relying more on what his invisible friend told him
more than the CIA when he advised congress that WMD was a problem (and
given the CIA's record, I would rather believe a hallucination), the
congress might feel they were snowed if Bush didn't clearly explain the
true basis of his convictions, but the fact is that only some UN
resolutions dealt with WMD, particularly the original resolutions
dealing with the first Gulf War and the cease fire agreement.

>   
> Well of course if they are innocent and did act in good faith then
> they should walk.
> 
> However, if they testify in the SCOTUS say, I'm not sure that's the
> appropriate forum but whatever it is that's a detail, 

Yeah, you don't testify before the SCOTUS, they only hear arguments
from party attorneys and amicus submitters, as well as overview the
record of lower court rulings.

In an impeachment, the Chief Justice of SCOTUS presides over
impeachment trials, but it is the Senate that is the jury and the
House's chosen representatives who are the prosecutors.

>  
> All of this would be an excellent process to go through in my view
> to underscore the immense importance that the United States 
> supreme court places in oath taking and in justice being done in 
> any case, even if the President, Vice President and Secretary of
> Defense "walk", their characters will have been examined and 
> shown to be clean if they are.  

This is questionable. As partisan as things are today over court
appointments, and the Bush v Gore ruling, the left is convinced that
whenever they lose, it is the 'conservative majority' being partisan,
while the right calls any loss legislating from the bench (which in
most cases it is, such as the eminent domain ruling the other day).
> > 
> > Sure, but that was a can of worms that was opened by Clinton, and
> > every Democrat in congress chose to cover his ass, so the damage 
> > is already done, there is no public trust right now to defend or
> protect.
> 
> Is that a fact? I don't really understand the impeachment process 
> quite well enough obviously, as an Australian I confess I wasn't
> paying all that much attention to the legal consequences of Clinton
> deciding to US the Presidential office as an adjuct to gained sexual
> favours from an intern, but I suppose I should have, it is pretty
> unsavory when one thinks of it. 

At the time, Clinton and his allies were prosecuting executives and
military officers all over the country for having workplace
relationships. Some were consensual relationships, others were coerced.
The Clinton Administration policy was that any personal relationship
between a superior and persons below them was 'sexual harrassment'
because of the disparity of power between the two. Clinton even went so
far as to drag a retired admiral out of retirement so that he could be
prosecuted under the UCMJ for a consensual relationship with a
subordinate while on active duty years before. 

All of this is immaterial to what Clinton was impeached over, except to
illustrate the atmosphere that the Clintons promulgated in the American
workplace in the 1990's. Given this policy, when it was found that
Clinton may have violated this policy himself with a consensual
workplace sexual relationship with a subordinate, it was clear to many
that excuses that Kennedy, Roosevelt, and other past presidents had
affairs was immaterial to the fact that Clinton held others to a higher
standard than he held himself to. This hypocrisy (the only valid crime,
according to liberals) was obviously something to check into, but, like
many other allegations of Clinton behavior over the years, it was
covered up, except in this case, someone had it on tape. Linda Tripp's
taping of conversations with Lewinski put the lie to Clinton's denial
on nationwide television. While it was not court testimony, it was a
slap in the face to many. What was court testimony was when he
testified in the investigation of his coverup and treatment of Tripp,
and made the ill advised equivocation about the meaning of the word
'is'. This testimony was something that nobody could cover up, nobody
could deny rationally. The GOP had the goods as much as any Perry Mason
courtroom episode. It was the perjury before the grand jury, televised,
that he was impeached on.

Despite the claims of his apologists, it wasn't "about sex", it was
about perjury. There was no chance of a 'good faith' equivocation.


> Not, however, anywhere near by a country mile, as wrong
> though as sending one's nations armed service men and women into
> harms way on a pretext or a lie. 

Yes and no. Clinton, you may recall, chose to bomb alleged al qaeda
bases (including a pharmaceutical plant) in order to deflect news
attention from the increasing allegations of his affair (the act of
using military force conflicted with his administrations long standing
policy of treating terrorism as a crime to be prosecuted). Killing
innocent people in order to avoid a PR scandal, versus Bush acting in
good faith to defend the nation, and the argument can be made that
Clinton's actions were the more despicable and craven.

> 
> > Any attempt by Democrats to impeach Bush would just be seen as
> > partisanship. 
> 
> As a matter of fact I am not a Democrat. You are not a Democrat
> so far as I know so if we can countenance it as a possible path for
> a higher purpose then I am sure others, probably including card 
> carrying Republicans might too, especially once the thing got 
> rolling. 

President Johnson led the nation through some six years of Vietnam,
using terrible tactics and strategy, refusing to win, and using heinous
rules of engagement that hamstrung the troops. Johnson got us into
Vietnam based on the fraudulent Tonkin Gulf Incident. Some say it was a
hoax, others say it was honest mistakes, but the fact stands it got us
into a war that the American people were not prepared to win, or at
least were not prepared to resist the propaganda of the enemy.

> 
> >Those in his own party most likely to support such an
> > attempt are regarded as RINOs - Republicans in name only, so 
> > they are generally democrats in conservative states.
> 
> I first saw the term RINO only recently in The Australian,
> interestingly
> it was used in relation to the new US Ambassador to Australia and
> in relation to Senator John McCain, both Republicans, and both men
> who have served their country in battle as I understand it. 

Yes, McCain is a RINO. Bush Sr. was generally regarded as one until the
Gulf War, Arlen Specter is another, as was William Weld of
Massachusetts.

> 
> > Impeaching Bush would only
> > deepen the rancor and divisiveness in this nation.
>  
> I wonder about that. 
> 
> I certainly have no doubt that the US could find many capable
> men and women for that matter to hold the Presidency, the 
> Vice Presidency and the Secretary of Defence positions. 

I am sure as well, but that isn't the point. The point is that the
polarizing partisanship here today keeps pushing things to the extreme.
Impeachment is about as extreme as you can get.


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Wed Jun 29 04:09:08 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:09:08 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>
References: <20050624201129.19550.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7F7842A5-89DF-4CE9-A41C-5444DC89C163@mac.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce0506282109523309a0@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> There will be draft and it will come from the current
> administration.  Bank on it.

http://www.ideosphere.com/fx-bin/Claim?claim=Draft

Claim Draft - US conscription < 2010
bid 31, ask 33, last 31


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Wed Jun 29 05:03:08 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:03:08 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Reanimation of Humans...
Message-ID: <42C22B8C.50600@mindspring.com>

Terry W. Colvin fnarded:
> As I recall, a biochemist named Robert Cornish achieved a certain fame 
> or notoriety back in the 1930's by asphyxiating dogs with nitrogen and 
> then reviving them. The 1940's and 1950's Fortean writer R. DeWitt 
> Miller devoted a page or so to Cornish's experiments in his 1947 book 
> _Forgotten Mysteries_, and I also recall reading an article on Cornish 
> and his revived dogs in FATE in the early 1950's.
...
>> But three hours later, their blood is replaced and the zombie dogs are
>> brought back to life with an electric shock.
>>
>> Plans to test the technique on humans should be realised within a
>> year, according to the Safar Centre.
>> [full story at
>> < http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html >]

I don't know if I've raised this issue here before, but I have grave 
misgivings on this cryro technique being applied on humans.

I have voiced my concerns elsewhere before, but the issue tends to be 
misunderstood.

Basically, it all has to do with the nature of our consciousness.

Let me state it this way -- is a book conscious? An encyclopedia? A 
computer switched off? Or anything else static? I think we can all agree 
without question with a rather emphatic "NO".

If a static system is *not* conscious, then consciousness must depend 
and "supersist" on the dynamics of a non-static system.

I think most of us can agree with a "YES" to that one.

Now, consciousness is a monastic, not dualistic phenomonea. That is, 
there is no such thing as "soul" or "spirit" in the usual mystical 
sense. Consciousness exists as a pure physical phenonomea that is rooted 
in *this* universe, not in some supernatural or metaphysical "plane".

I think most of us here would agree with a "YES" to that assertion, 
though I suspect there would be a handful that might raise objections.

Now, for those who are in agreement with all of the above:

What happens when you subject a human to cryogenic suspension and revive 
him again? During the cryro suspension, the human's brain is "clinically 
dead", meaning that if you look for neural activity, it will be 
completely absent. That is to say, the corpus becomes static, just like 
a library, etc. The physical organization of the neurons, etc., are 
preserved, but there is no activity. The person -- the consciousness -- 
no longer exists. It is not "preserved" anywhere unless you invoke a 
dualistic explanation. Yep. You'd have to come up with a supernatural 
explanation of the person's "spirit" or "soul".

I think the more scientifically astute of us would agree with that.

Now, here's the catch.

If the consciousness no longer exists for the person, then that person 
is dead. Gone. Kaput.

Now when you revive the corpus, assuming you are successful, of course, 
you restart the body. The heart begins pumping blood again, the brain is 
reactivated, and the neural dynamics is recreated. There is a 
consciousness that now exists in the brain.

My rather bold assertion is that it is not *the same* consciousness, but 
 a new one that is indistinguishable from the pre-cryro one. This 
*must* be the case since the old dynamic is not preserved across the 
cryro procedure.

It is, for all practical purposes, the functional equivalent of 
producing an exact duplicate of a person. The duplicate would be 
indistinguishable from the original, but clearly would have a new 
consciousness that is obviously not the same as the old.

The main difference here with the cryro procedure is that the original 
person is *dead*, gone forever.

Call this, if you will, "Mitchell's Paradox".

This, of course, would also apply to survivors of those being plunged 
into frigid waters long enough to cause flatwave brain activity and then 
 revived. The old person *died*, a new person indistinguishable from 
the old -- save any brain damage -- appears in his or her place.

I would like to see your responses to this here. The few I've hit with 
this found it most disturbing and was unwilling to accept it. I find it 
disturbing too, but the logic seems impeccable -- to me at least.

Well, feel free to tear this apart! Have I erred anywhere in my 
deductions? If you disagree with my assertions, why? What's your 
explanation? Can you disagree without invoking dualism? Keep in mind 
that there is a difference in preserving *the patterns* of consciousness 
and the consciousness itself. They are *not* the same. And I would 
imagine there will be some disagreement on that fine point as well.

And if you think that's crazy, let me digress into utter lunacy.

I question whether the continuum of consciousness, or "Q" as I call it, 
is preserved even when we go to sleep at night. It may well be the case 
that we -- our Q -- dies when we go to sleep, and a completely new Q 
arises when we wake up the next day. Yes, that means what you think it 
means -- that we actually die every time we slumber, and a new "us" 
replaces us when we wake, carrying the "baton" of our former selves. And 
you thought "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" was creepy enough! ;-)

Call that one the "Mitchell's Sleep Paradox". If that could be shown to 
be true, it would have all kinds of ramifications for religions, the 
justice system, ownership, etc. If I am not the same person as I was 
yesterday, can you fairly punish me for any crimes one of my former 
selves committed?

And now for the science question: is there any hope for falsifiability 
for  either of these paradoxes? And if not, what are the implications? 
If there is, how can we proceed?

-Fred Mitchell
 http://fred.mitchellware.com



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 29 06:17:41 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Reanimation of Humans...
In-Reply-To: <42C22B8C.50600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20050629061741.24373.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Now, consciousness is a monastic, not dualistic phenomonea. That is, 
> there is no such thing as "soul" or "spirit" in the usual mystical 
> sense. Consciousness exists as a pure physical phenonomea that is
> rooted 
> in *this* universe, not in some supernatural or metaphysical "plane".

> That is to say, the corpus becomes static, just
> like 
> a library, etc. The physical organization of the neurons, etc., are 
> preserved, but there is no activity. The person -- the consciousness
> -- 
> no longer exists.

My perspective:

The process that is the person is no longer active, but instead is on
pause - and can be resumed.  Analogous to a software program that's
running, then stops.  Will it ever start again?  Certain stop
conditions (which preserve the program's information) allow it to start
again; others do not (or, at least, not that instance).  Where is that
instance of the program in the mean time?  In storage, frozen - and
certainly not "active" or "living" if those terms could usually be
applied to it - but it does exist.

> It is, for all practical purposes, the functional equivalent of 
> producing an exact duplicate of a person. The duplicate would be 
> indistinguishable from the original, but clearly would have a new 
> consciousness that is obviously not the same as the old.

Only if you assume the continued-stream-of-consciousness model.  Quite
a few of us do not assume that, therefore to us it obviously *is* the
same as the old, just as "obviously" as it is not the same to you.

I wonder if we could make it required thinking, for all those who would
pose problems with interruption or translation of consciousness
eliminating one "person" and creating a "duplicate", to take into
consideration those who believe the process is the "person", rather
than the given instance which can artificially be stopped and replaced
with an "identical duplicate" who is somehow not the same person
despite being the same in all measurable respects.


From humania at t-online.de  Wed Jun 29 06:23:23 2005
From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:23:23 +0200
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com><42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com><002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z><038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc><5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com><03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc><C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>
	<049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>

> Perhaps, unless Hubert wants right of reply, this Meta has gone
> past its usefulness and we might relabel future posts to reflect
> content?
>
> Regards,
> Brett Paatsch


Well, I tried to come up with a reply. But again I deleted four drafts. Just
this:

I experienced the war on Iraq as a severe caesura. Up to that point I
enjoyed discussions about trancending the biological restrictions of
mankind. The war changed everything. Supposedly smart people outed
themselves as coolhearted revanchists and believed the lies they were told.
Worst of all was and is the US patriotism, one of the major drives and
forces behind. In this special respect, the cultural gap between the USA and
Germany is not reconcilable. I simply cannot grasp it.

I am still filled with indignation to read a post like the recent one from
Mike Lorrey where he callously calculates the "losses" in Iraq, fools around
with big numbers and tries to convince us that killing some people today
might result in better living tomorrow. Dear extropes: A man like him with
his political aspirations is a big threat to your noble case. He might be
able to pile up loads of informations to impress your innocent hungry
intellect, but the force behind it is a totalitarian one and reveals the
sheer ugliness of utilitarianism. It is a threat to your physical and
spiritual health and your freedom. And if a man like Stuart LaForge
elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on battlefields all over
the world, everything else he might contribute to this list, is in my
opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.

Since the beginning of the war on Iraq I have acquired a bad reputation as a
person who only seems to use dirty word and insult people. I do not regret a
single post and pledge for the right of *not* writing in a civil tone, while
others cold heartedly and verbosely support the killing of innocent people
10.000 miles away from their home. This movement is a dead duck, if you
allow false patriotism as a source of territorial pissings to be prolonged
into potential eternity in a future transhuman society. At least, this is
not *my* vision of transhumanism. Get a little more Un-American!

Love and Peace

humania






From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 07:06:18 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <20050629070619.36845.qmail@web60513.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Hubert Mania <humania at t-online.de> wrote:

> 
> Well, I tried to come up with a reply. But again I
> deleted four drafts. Just
> this:
> 
> I experienced the war on Iraq as a severe caesura.
> Up to that point I
> enjoyed discussions about trancending the biological
> restrictions of
> mankind. The war changed everything. Supposedly
> smart people outed
> themselves as coolhearted revanchists and believed
> the lies they were told.
> Worst of all was and is the US patriotism, one of
> the major drives and
> forces behind. In this special respect, the cultural
> gap between the USA and
> Germany is not reconcilable. I simply cannot grasp
> it.

Yeah but your grandfather and father sure could. You
are like the child that burns its hand on a stove and
thereafter lives in hatred of fire. The lesson that
you should have l


> 
> I am still filled with indignation to read a post
> like the recent one from
> Mike Lorrey where he callously calculates the
> "losses" in Iraq, fools around
> with big numbers and tries to convince us that
> killing some people today
> might result in better living tomorrow. Dear
> extropes: A man like him with
> his political aspirations is a big threat to your
> noble case. He might be
> able to pile up loads of informations to impress
> your innocent hungry
> intellect, but the force behind it is a totalitarian
> one and reveals the
> sheer ugliness of utilitarianism. It is a threat to
> your physical and
> spiritual health and your freedom. And if a man like
> Stuart LaForge
> elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on
> battlefields all over
> the world, everything else he might contribute to
> this list, is in my
> opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.
> 
> Since the beginning of the war on Iraq I have
> acquired a bad reputation as a
> person who only seems to use dirty word and insult
> people. I do not regret a
> single post and pledge for the right of *not*
> writing in a civil tone, while
> others cold heartedly and verbosely support the
> killing of innocent people
> 10.000 miles away from their home. This movement is
> a dead duck, if you
> allow false patriotism as a source of territorial
> pissings to be prolonged
> into potential eternity in a future transhuman
> society. At least, this is
> not *my* vision of transhumanism. Get a little more
> Un-American!
> 
> Love and Peace
> 
> humania
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 08:45:48 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <20050629084548.35890.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Hubert Mania <humania at t-online.de> wrote:

> I experienced the war on Iraq as a severe caesura.

I am sorry you feel that way. For what its worth my
1/250 millionth of a say, which is approximately zero,
every four years in what my country DOES was spent
trying to prevent and end this war. Unfortunately that
did not come to pass. That you choose to constantly
blame me and hold me accountable for what a President
that I did not elect says and does is rude at best and
downright irrational at worst.    

> Up to that point I
> enjoyed discussions about trancending the biological
> restrictions of
> mankind. The war changed everything. Supposedly
> smart people outed
> themselves as coolhearted revanchists and believed
> the lies they were told.

YOU find the needle of truth in the haystack of lies
then come back and show it to me. And don't tell me
all that Euroganda that I hear you guys spout is
remotely the truth. Where were your protests when the
U.S. invaded Panama in the 1990? Or Grenada? How come
you don't protest all the genocide and inhumanity in
Rawanda and a host of other places? Is it because
black people don't deserve your activism? Or is it
that all this moral posturing is really a cover for
the fact that you feel Germany's own economic
interests will be unfavorably affected by our actions
in the middle east? What? Are you upset you can't sell
Saddam any more mobile Bioweapons labs? All these
conspiracy theories about 9-11 being the American
Reichstagg. Is that the best you can do? It hasn't
escaped my notice that the 9-11 hijackers came here
from Germany. How do I know you guys didn't have
something to do with it? How many more Al-Quaeda
members are you harboring? 

> Worst of all was and is the US patriotism, one of
> the major drives and
> forces behind. In this special respect, the cultural
> gap between the USA and
> Germany is not reconcilable. I simply cannot grasp
> it.

Oh but your father could and his father too. Did the
world come down on you guys too hard for it? Is that
why you are afraid to be proud of being German. Let me
tell you something, you have the right to feel proud
you are a German. You are just not supposed to try to
beat your neighbors into submission with it. It's a
lesson my country may end up having to learn the hard
way.


> 
> I am still filled with indignation to read a post
> like the recent one from
> Mike Lorrey where he callously calculates the
> "losses" in Iraq, fools around
> with big numbers and tries to convince us that
> killing some people today
> might result in better living tomorrow.

There is no illogic in this. In medicine one often has
to cut out a diseased portion of the body so that the
rest of the body might live. It is called surgery. I
hear Josef Mengele was pretty adept at it.


 Dear
> extropes: A man like him with
> his political aspirations is a big threat to your
> noble case. He might be
> able to pile up loads of informations to impress
> your innocent hungry
> intellect, but the force behind it is a totalitarian
> one

Totalitarian? How is a guy who doesn't even believe
his own national government lawfully exists in any way
totalitarian? It's a great putdown, but what on Earth
could be your rationale for it? If liberterian means
totalitarian these days, I think you need a new
English dictionary.


 and reveals the
> sheer ugliness of utilitarianism. It is a threat to
> your physical and
> spiritual health and your freedom.

Ok. Once again I am confused. I took one university
level philosophy class and learned that that
utilitarianism is based on the utilitarian principle:
"the greatest good for the greatest number". Now I
don't know if I am necessarily qualify as utilitarian
because I am inherently somewhat selfish, but humoring
you. If I WERE a utilitarian how is that a bad thing?
When you start talking about the most good being a bad
thing, I don't know what to make of your post. Did the
list switch to newspeak where "war is peace" and
"freedom is slavery" and I not get the memo? 

> And if a man like
> Stuart LaForge
> elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on
> battlefields all over
> the world, everything else he might contribute to
> this list, is in my
> opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.

     Well unlike you, I know what I am talking about
because I was once one of those U.S. soldiers.
Eighteen years old and clueless. Wanting to make
something out of my life and uncertain as to what to
do. So I signed up to see the world. I was part of the
force that invaded Panama to oust Noriega and I don't
remember you guys getting all in a huff about that.
And the reason that the administration gave for that
one was not WMD or terrorism but simply drugs. Even as
an 18 year old, I knew that was bullshit but I went
any way to do what I saw was my honor bound duty.
There were a minimum of casualties on both sides and
Noriega was ousted.
     I can proudly say I did not do one thing that
bothered my conscience. Returning fire on someone
shooting at you is hardly wrong, it is just plain
survival. That you would judge any soldier U.S. or
otherwise a monster for that tells me you need to get
your survival instincts checked out. 

> Since the beginning of the war on Iraq I have
> acquired a bad reputation as a
> person who only seems to use dirty word and insult
> people.

I was unaware of your reputation but this post seems
to indicate that you have earned it.

> I do not regret a
> single post and pledge for the right of *not*
> writing in a civil tone, while
> others cold heartedly and verbosely support the
> killing of innocent people
> 10.000 miles away from their home.

Nobody supports the killing of innocent people. Least
of all peace and freedom loving Americans. None of the
guys strapping bombs to themselves or aiming carbines
at our soldiers are innocent. The Baathists killed
thousands during Sadam's rule and the terrorists have
been rather naughty as well. I guarantee you that
every precaution is being taken from every single
soldier to prevent civilian casualties. But when the
guys shooting at you insist on wearing plain clothes
and hiding courageously behind unarmed civillians,
mistakes do happen. I apologize for those unfortunate
deaths.
     But I don't see any of the insurgents making any
apologies for any of the civillians they kill. And I
rather certain that that number will soon be higher
than the U.S. caused civillian casualties if it is not
already.
     But considerations of the ugly reality of war
aside, who are you to stand 10,000 miles away from
combatants engaged a life and death struggle and pass
any manner of judgement on either side? You think the
American soldiers WANT to be there? Soldiers of all
nationalities pray for peace because its their asses
on the line. Not yours. 

 This movement is
> a dead duck, if you
> allow false patriotism as a source of territorial
> pissings to be prolonged
> into potential eternity in a future transhuman
> society.

Well let me clear something up here right here and
right now. My patriotism is not false. It is as not
wide-eyed and innocent as it was when I last wore a
uniform. But I still love my country, not for its
lying politicians or cheezy Hollywood movies but
because is founded on some of the most beautiful
principles ever penned. While I will agree that we
don't always live up to our own ideals, those ideals
are always there like moral GPS system to tell us
exactly how right or how wrong we, or anyone else for
that matter, really are. Furthermore I will defend
those principles and people that espouse them with my
LIFE.  

 At least, this is
> not *my* vision of transhumanism. Get a little more
> Un-American!

Yeah? And what exactly is Un-American? Every race
creed and national origin is represented in our midst
including you precious Germans. So I when I go and
drink beer at the Oktoberfest that the local German
community here in Los Angeles hold every year, am I
being Un-American enough for you? All an American
truly is is a person who is tolerant enough to call
anyone else living in his country a countryman.  Hell
I almost blame you guys for Bush. After all Bush is no
more than the mangled German surname Busch. Maybe
that's where he gets his facist sterak from. Do you
guys want him back? 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From humania at t-online.de  Wed Jun 29 09:20:11 2005
From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:20:11 +0200
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
References: <20050629084548.35890.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005101c57c8b$c67211f0$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>

Mr. Avantguardian,

thanx for your detailed answers and questions. The case is hopeless. 
We will not understand each other. Spare your time and energy for people
who still have the nerve to talk with you.

humania



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jun 29 12:37:57 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:37:57 -0500
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>
	<03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>
	<049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Frankly, a true and correct vision of transhumanism would not be 
nationalistic, but for the future - whatever organization of people and 
governing/ruling of society takes place.

Just like pitting one country against another, pitting one political 
position against another is lacking in scope and sorely missing the thrust 
of transhumanism.

This is precisely why I oppose the forced democracy of WTA and the 
insistence by James Hughes, Mike, or Dirk -  or any of us that one 
political position is better than another and that people have to fit 
neatly into a political box.  All of them - us - have positive things to 
offer to the world and it would be good to see them realized rather than 
used to dismiss and/or criticize others within our community.

What we need to do is to get futuristic and learn how to rise above this 
20th Century inability to resolve conflict.

My best to all,
Natasha



I am not saying that

At 01:23 AM 6/29/2005, you wrote:
> > Perhaps, unless Hubert wants right of reply, this Meta has gone
> > past its usefulness and we might relabel future posts to reflect
> > content?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Brett Paatsch
>
>
>Well, I tried to come up with a reply. But again I deleted four drafts. Just
>this:
>
>I experienced the war on Iraq as a severe caesura. Up to that point I
>enjoyed discussions about trancending the biological restrictions of
>mankind. The war changed everything. Supposedly smart people outed
>themselves as coolhearted revanchists and believed the lies they were told.
>Worst of all was and is the US patriotism, one of the major drives and
>forces behind. In this special respect, the cultural gap between the USA and
>Germany is not reconcilable. I simply cannot grasp it.
>
>I am still filled with indignation to read a post like the recent one from
>Mike Lorrey where he callously calculates the "losses" in Iraq, fools around
>with big numbers and tries to convince us that killing some people today
>might result in better living tomorrow. Dear extropes: A man like him with
>his political aspirations is a big threat to your noble case. He might be
>able to pile up loads of informations to impress your innocent hungry
>intellect, but the force behind it is a totalitarian one and reveals the
>sheer ugliness of utilitarianism. It is a threat to your physical and
>spiritual health and your freedom. And if a man like Stuart LaForge
>elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on battlefields all over
>the world, everything else he might contribute to this list, is in my
>opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.
>
>Since the beginning of the war on Iraq I have acquired a bad reputation as a
>person who only seems to use dirty word and insult people. I do not regret a
>single post and pledge for the right of *not* writing in a civil tone, while
>others cold heartedly and verbosely support the killing of innocent people
>10.000 miles away from their home. This movement is a dead duck, if you
>allow false patriotism as a source of territorial pissings to be prolonged
>into potential eternity in a future transhuman society. At least, this is
>not *my* vision of transhumanism. Get a little more Un-American!
>
>Love and Peace
>
>humania
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jun 29 12:40:36 2005
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:40:36 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy and Evangelism
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629073831.047eca20@pop-server.austin.rr.com>

Friends,

On NPR yesterday there was a program on the pre-Bush address which took 
place last night.  The issue was a forced or evangelistic democracy which 
could, in the end, be more detrimental to the ideology of democracy.  In 
other words, the US using "democracy" to push its agenda could backfire.

Did anyone listen to this broadcast and, if so, what are your opinions?

Thanks,
Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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From dirk at neopax.com  Wed Jun 29 12:55:13 2005
From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:55:13 +0100
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>	<03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>	<049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C29A31.9020606@neopax.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Frankly, a true and correct vision of transhumanism would not be 
> nationalistic, but for the future - whatever organization of people 
> and governing/ruling of society takes place.
>
> Just like pitting one country against another, pitting one political 
> position against another is lacking in scope and sorely missing the 
> thrust of transhumanism.
>
> This is precisely why I oppose the forced democracy of WTA and the 
> insistence by James Hughes, Mike, or Dirk -  or any of us that one 
> political position is better than another and that people have to fit 
> neatly into a political box.  All of them - us - have positive things 
> to offer to the world and it would be good to see them realized rather 
> than used to dismiss and/or criticize others within our community.
>
My position is somewhat different.
I believe groups of people should be free to determine for themselves 
how they live their lives without being subject to the dictatorship of a 
majority that they do not affect physically.

> What we need to do is to get futuristic and learn how to rise above 
> this 20th Century inability to resolve conflict.
>
We almost did that for a short time in the early 1990s
At that point it looked like we had finally got to the point where we 
realised that invading other peoples countries on any pretext other than 
direct self defence was wrong. Now Bush does it on a pretext of lies, or 
if found out, it becomes 'regime change' or 'for their own good'.

-- 
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 13:33:52 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:33:52 -0400
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
Message-ID: <254730-22005632913335214@M2W048.mail2web.com>


From: Dirk Bruere 

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Frankly, a true and correct vision of transhumanism would not be 
> nationalistic, but for the future - whatever organization of people 
> and governing/ruling of society takes place.
>
> Just like pitting one country against another, pitting one political 
> position against another is lacking in scope and sorely missing the 
> thrust of transhumanism.
>
> This is precisely why I oppose the forced democracy of WTA and the 
> insistence by James Hughes, Mike, or Dirk -  or any of us that one 
> political position is better than another and that people have to fit 
> neatly into a political box.  All of them - us - have positive things 
> to offer to the world and it would be good to see them realized rather 
> than used to dismiss and/or criticize others within our community.

"My position is somewhat different."
"I believe groups of people should be free to determine for themselves 
how they live their lives without being subject to the dictatorship of a 
majority that they do not affect physically."

Yes, certainly.  Groups can be developed in small clusters or nexui
configurations; as well as larger diverse communities/groups where people
want to develop a combined ideology that works in interesting ways. Some
people enjoy a "puzzle" in which to develop step by step the processes;
others function better with specific guidelines from the get-go.

> What we need to do is to get futuristic and learn how to rise above 
> this 20th Century inability to resolve conflict.

"We almost did that for a short time in the early 1990s
At that point it looked like we had finally got to the point where we 
realized that invading other peoples countries on any pretext other than 
direct self defense was wrong. Now Bush does it on a pretext of lies, or 
if found out, it becomes 'regime change' or 'for their own good'."

The Internet was an interesting format for establishing a protocol for
communication, trade, ownership and open source.  It was quite lovely to be
a part of difference groups/clusters which developed through their
individual groups' decisions on how to function.  

For myself, at least at this point in my life, I would prefer to be part of
an international cluster whose "citizens" were from diverse ethnic,
political and religious backgrounds, whose desire would be to build the
architecture for relationships to establish cooperation and individuality
and whose goal was to design a prototype for the world to interact smartly.
This, of course, would have to be explained in length and I just gave a
Polaroid snapshot of the terrain.

Best,
Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc


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From pgptag at gmail.com  Wed Jun 29 14:40:23 2005
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:40:23 +0200
Subject: Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <254730-22005632913335214@M2W048.mail2web.com>
References: <254730-22005632913335214@M2W048.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <470a3c5205062907405625844b@mail.gmail.com>

Where is this international cluster Natasha? I want to join!
But I am afraid such a project would be killed as soon as it starts
moving from think tank to political reality.
Since years we talk of distributed republics or new states set up on
artificial islands, but I am afraid established power structures based
on nation states would agree to crush these new realities in the
cradle.
I may be too pessimist though. Pleeeeease correct me.
G.

On 6/29/05, nvitamore at austin.rr.com <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> For myself, at least at this point in my life, I would prefer to be part of
> an international cluster whose "citizens" were from diverse ethnic,
> political and religious backgrounds, whose desire would be to build the
> architecture for relationships to establish cooperation and individuality
> and whose goal was to design a prototype for the world to interact smartly.
> This, of course, would have to be explained in length and I just gave a
> Polaroid snapshot of the terrain.
> 
> Best,
> Natasha


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 15:14:57 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:14:57 -0400
Subject: Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
Message-ID: <303120-220056329151457984@M2W114.mail2web.com>

From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 

"Where is this international cluster Natasha? I want to join!
But I am afraid such a project would be killed as soon as it starts
moving from think tank to political reality.
Since years we talk of distributed republics or new states set up on
artificial islands, but I am afraid established power structures based
on nation states would agree to crush these new realities in the
cradle.
I may be too pessimist though. Pleeeeease correct me."

I don't think you are pessimistic, but perhaps a realist :-)  I wonder why
politics lacks reason much of the time and acts as a lubricant for a
collision course of personalities and emotions.

I suppose that what we could be doing right now is to develop a resource of
political activists from all the world's ideologies, who are/were
reasonable about looking for solutions rather than political positioning
tactics.  These people would be role models of how to develop scenarios.

Politics is not the only venue where people are less than kind.  The art
world has some back-stabbers too, not to mention business and sports.  BUT,
like all else, politics does have some level-headed folks (and I know some
of you are here) - we just need to encourage that tactic.

Well, I suppose we would first have to first begins in the mind - an idea,
imaginzation, thought - and is then developed by those who have the skills
to design the plan - and this would be done by the best possible authors -
transdisciplary/multidisciplinary.

Best,
Natasha


> For myself, at least at this point in my life, I would prefer to be part
of
> an international cluster whose "citizens" were from diverse ethnic,
> political and religious backgrounds, whose desire would be to build the
> architecture for relationships to establish cooperation and individuality
> and whose goal was to design a prototype for the world to interact
smartly.
> This, of course, would have to be explained in length and I just gave a
> Polaroid snapshot of the terrain.
> 
> Best,
> Natasha
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 15:15:59 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 70% oppose resumption of military conscription
In-Reply-To: <e88b73ce0506282109523309a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050629151559.86834.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Neil Halelamien <neuronexmachina at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/24/05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> > There will be draft and it will come from the current
> > administration.  Bank on it.
> 
> http://www.ideosphere.com/fx-bin/Claim?claim=Draft
> 
> Claim Draft - US conscription < 2010
> bid 31, ask 33, last 31

And it looks like someone was paying to keep it above 25. The trend is
downward, though, after starting off around 60 in 2001. The market
agrees with me: little chance of a draft before 2010...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 15:35:42 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35:42 -0400
Subject: Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
Message-ID: <160590-220056329153542217@M2W032.mail2web.com>


Sorry, the "Well, I suppose we would first have to first begins in the mind
..." was left over from something else - don't know what, but do know that
it don't fit or make sense.

N






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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 15:47:37 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:47:37 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
Message-ID: <138320-22005632915473717@M2W081.mail2web.com>

"NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design for the
signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after revising
it to make the tower more secure."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html



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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 15:51:30 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:51:30 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
In-Reply-To: <20050629084548.35890.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<20050629084548.35890.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 01:45 AM 6/29/2005 -0700, Stuart wrote:

> > And if a man like
> > Stuart LaForge
> > elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on
> > battlefields all over
> > the world, everything else he might contribute to
> > this list, is in my
> > opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.
>
>      Well unlike you, I know what I am talking about
>because I was once one of those U.S. soldiers.
>Eighteen years old and clueless. Wanting to make
>something out of my life and uncertain as to what to
>do. So I signed up to see the world. I was part of the
>force that invaded Panama to oust Noriega and I don't
>remember you guys getting all in a huff about that.

Oh? Try: "The Panama Deception"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4078.htm

"This film shows how the U.S. attacked Panama and killed 3 or 4 thousand 
people in an invasion that the rest of the world was against.  (Sound 
familiar?) It won the Academy Award for best documentary."

Not exactly hiding its light under a Bush-ell.

True, 3/4000 people is not in the ballpark with Iraq.

>And the reason that the administration gave for that
>one was not WMD or terrorism but simply drugs. Even as
>an 18 year old, I knew that was bullshit but I went
>any way to do what I saw was my honor bound duty.

It was obviously bullshit but you were honor-bound? This is a strange argument.

Damien Broderick 



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 29 16:03:16 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:03:16 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <138320-22005632915473717@M2W081.mail2web.com>
References: <138320-22005632915473717@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <42C2C644.2040607@humanenhancement.com>

Personally, I prefer Donald Trump's idea to simply remake the towers, 
off the old footprints, one storey taller. (And, as more than one wag 
has put it, with surface-to-air missiles installed on the observation deck.)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/18/wtc.trump/

Joseph

nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:

>"NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design for the
>signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after revising
>it to make the tower more secure."
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 29 16:04:47 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <138320-22005632915473717@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20050629160447.88822.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> "NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design for
> the
> signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after
> revising
> it to make the tower more secure."
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html

So...since when has the same public/famous building, other than places
which house specific individuals (such as the President, or soldiers in
or near a contested country) that some would want to attack, ever been
successfully attacked twice?  (Granted, there is some cause and effect:
once attacked, ever vigilant.  And the politicians want to be seen as
"doing something", no matter how ineffective.  But still...)


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Jun 29 16:13:45 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:13:45 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] A Quantum Computer on the market by 2008?
References: <20050626192050.45958.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com><9132112A-F5A6-44B9-84C5-BC363474C846@mac.com><015301c57ab3$8b25eba0$6e2a2dcb@homepc><C5A073C3-6197-43DD-8298-9F68EE091D1A@mac.com><003401c57b4b$15a1dc20$32ee4d0c@MyComputer>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050628175139.01d9da28@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000401c57cc5$87362000$36b71b97@administxl09yj>

> Damien's friend comments: 
> This sounds completely screwy to me. Factoring large numbers is *easier*
> than the traveling salesman problem: the latter is NP-complete, while the
> factoring problem falls short of NP-completeness. 

Both issues (the NP-complete, and the supposed QC)
are discussed (with some humour) here
http://dabacon.org/pontiff/?p=954
(pontiff blog, 22 June)



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 29 16:12:51 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:12:51 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <20050629160447.88822.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050629160447.88822.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C2C883.5000001@humanenhancement.com>

Actually, the WTC itself was attacked twice. Remember that truck-bomb in 
1993?

I remember reading that the failure of the 1993 attack was a large part 
of the incentive for the terrorists to try again at the same target.

Joseph

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>"NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design for
>>the
>>signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after
>>revising
>>it to make the tower more secure."
>>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html
>>    
>>
>
>So...since when has the same public/famous building, other than places
>which house specific individuals (such as the President, or soldiers in
>or near a contested country) that some would want to attack, ever been
>successfully attacked twice?  (Granted, there is some cause and effect:
>once attacked, ever vigilant.  And the politicians want to be seen as
>"doing something", no matter how ineffective.  But still...)
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jun 29 16:28:27 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <42C2C883.5000001@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <20050629162827.96174.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
> Actually, the WTC itself was attacked twice. Remember that truck-bomb
> in 
> 1993?

That's why I said "successfully".


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 18:37:43 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <138320-22005632915473717@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20050629183743.59930.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> "NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design for
> the signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after
> revising it to make the tower more secure."
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html

I see they finally followed my design advice, that NYC should have one
humongous tower sticking up out of its skyline, 1,776 feet tall, as a
massive middle finger to the rest of the world (though I suggested 200
stories tall). What a quintessentially N'yawkuh-type statement.

Any bets on  when the anti-aircraft installations will be completed?

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Wed Jun 29 18:37:37 2005
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:37:37 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Reanimation of Humans...
In-Reply-To: <42C22B8C.50600@mindspring.com>
References: <42C22B8C.50600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9B92031E-B0B5-4132-B4A3-B28662941382@bonfireproductions.com>


>
> What happens when you subject a human to cryogenic suspension and  
> revive him again? During the cryro suspension, the human's brain is  
> "clinically dead", meaning that if you look for neural activity, it  
> will be completely absent. That is to say, the corpus becomes  
> static, just like a library, etc. The physical organization of the  
> neurons, etc., are preserved, but there is no activity. The person  
> -- the consciousness -- no longer exists. It is not "preserved"  
> anywhere unless you invoke a dualistic explanation. Yep. You'd have  
> to come up with a supernatural explanation of the person's "spirit"  
> or "soul".

What is a photograph in the dark?

All we need is the boot sequence. Shutdown we are gaining mastery over.

The rest of this is like the myriad "transporter accident" theorems  
or stories a la The Outer Limits. Fun to consider, but currently  
unsolvable to any practical point.

Personally, "I" am this electrical arc balanced over some fat and  
sinew. Some day it will shut off. At a later date, preserved  
properly, it will come back on.



I'll see you there,

]3


On Jun 29, 2005, at 1:03 AM, Terry W. Colvin wrote:

> Terry W. Colvin fnarded:
>
>> As I recall, a biochemist named Robert Cornish achieved a certain  
>> fame or notoriety back in the 1930's by asphyxiating dogs with  
>> nitrogen and then reviving them. The 1940's and 1950's Fortean  
>> writer R. DeWitt Miller devoted a page or so to Cornish's  
>> experiments in his 1947 book _Forgotten Mysteries_, and I also  
>> recall reading an article on Cornish and his revived dogs in FATE  
>> in the early 1950's.
>>
> ...
>
>>> But three hours later, their blood is replaced and the zombie  
>>> dogs are
>>> brought back to life with an electric shock.
>>>
>>> Plans to test the technique on humans should be realised within a
>>> year, according to the Safar Centre.
>>> [full story at
>>> < http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html >]
>>>
>
> I don't know if I've raised this issue here before, but I have  
> grave misgivings on this cryro technique being applied on humans.
>
> I have voiced my concerns elsewhere before, but the issue tends to  
> be misunderstood.
>
> Basically, it all has to do with the nature of our consciousness.
>
> Let me state it this way -- is a book conscious? An encyclopedia? A  
> computer switched off? Or anything else static? I think we can all  
> agree without question with a rather emphatic "NO".
>
> If a static system is *not* conscious, then consciousness must  
> depend and "supersist" on the dynamics of a non-static system.
>
> I think most of us can agree with a "YES" to that one.
>
> Now, consciousness is a monastic, not dualistic phenomonea. That  
> is, there is no such thing as "soul" or "spirit" in the usual  
> mystical sense. Consciousness exists as a pure physical phenonomea  
> that is rooted in *this* universe, not in some supernatural or  
> metaphysical "plane".
>
> I think most of us here would agree with a "YES" to that assertion,  
> though I suspect there would be a handful that might raise objections.
>
> Now, for those who are in agreement with all of the above:
>
> What happens when you subject a human to cryogenic suspension and  
> revive him again? During the cryro suspension, the human's brain is  
> "clinically dead", meaning that if you look for neural activity, it  
> will be completely absent. That is to say, the corpus becomes  
> static, just like a library, etc. The physical organization of the  
> neurons, etc., are preserved, but there is no activity. The person  
> -- the consciousness -- no longer exists. It is not "preserved"  
> anywhere unless you invoke a dualistic explanation. Yep. You'd have  
> to come up with a supernatural explanation of the person's "spirit"  
> or "soul".
>
> I think the more scientifically astute of us would agree with that.
>
> Now, here's the catch.
>
> If the consciousness no longer exists for the person, then that  
> person is dead. Gone. Kaput.
>
> Now when you revive the corpus, assuming you are successful, of  
> course, you restart the body. The heart begins pumping blood again,  
> the brain is reactivated, and the neural dynamics is recreated.  
> There is a consciousness that now exists in the brain.
>
> My rather bold assertion is that it is not *the same*  
> consciousness, but a new one that is indistinguishable from the pre- 
> cryro one. This *must* be the case since the old dynamic is not  
> preserved across the cryro procedure.
>
> It is, for all practical purposes, the functional equivalent of  
> producing an exact duplicate of a person. The duplicate would be  
> indistinguishable from the original, but clearly would have a new  
> consciousness that is obviously not the same as the old.
>
> The main difference here with the cryro procedure is that the  
> original person is *dead*, gone forever.
>
> Call this, if you will, "Mitchell's Paradox".
>
> This, of course, would also apply to survivors of those being  
> plunged into frigid waters long enough to cause flatwave brain  
> activity and then revived. The old person *died*, a new person  
> indistinguishable from the old -- save any brain damage -- appears  
> in his or her place.
>
> I would like to see your responses to this here. The few I've hit  
> with this found it most disturbing and was unwilling to accept it.  
> I find it disturbing too, but the logic seems impeccable -- to me  
> at least.
>
> Well, feel free to tear this apart! Have I erred anywhere in my  
> deductions? If you disagree with my assertions, why? What's your  
> explanation? Can you disagree without invoking dualism? Keep in  
> mind that there is a difference in preserving *the patterns* of  
> consciousness and the consciousness itself. They are *not* the  
> same. And I would imagine there will be some disagreement on that  
> fine point as well.
>
> And if you think that's crazy, let me digress into utter lunacy.
>
> I question whether the continuum of consciousness, or "Q" as I call  
> it, is preserved even when we go to sleep at night. It may well be  
> the case that we -- our Q -- dies when we go to sleep, and a  
> completely new Q arises when we wake up the next day. Yes, that  
> means what you think it means -- that we actually die every time we  
> slumber, and a new "us" replaces us when we wake, carrying the  
> "baton" of our former selves. And you thought "Invasion of the Body  
> Snatchers" was creepy enough! ;-)
>
> Call that one the "Mitchell's Sleep Paradox". If that could be  
> shown to be true, it would have all kinds of ramifications for  
> religions, the justice system, ownership, etc. If I am not the same  
> person as I was yesterday, can you fairly punish me for any crimes  
> one of my former selves committed?
>
> And now for the science question: is there any hope for  
> falsifiability for  either of these paradoxes? And if not, what are  
> the implications? If there is, how can we proceed?
>
> -Fred Mitchell
> http://fred.mitchellware.com
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992,  
> Frank Rice
>
>
> Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at  
> mindspring.com >
>     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
> Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/ 
> index.html >
> Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
>      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
> ------------
> Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
>   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
> veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 19:15:52 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:15:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <42C2C883.5000001@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <20050629191552.61202.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Actually, 2001 was the third time, if you count a second failed attempt
that was prevented by the FBI before they got the truck out the door. I
believe it was the second attempt that helped them finally get the
blind sheik behind bars.

--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:

> Actually, the WTC itself was attacked twice. Remember that truck-bomb
> in 
> 1993?
> 
> I remember reading that the failure of the 1993 attack was a large
> part 
> of the incentive for the terrorists to try again at the same target.
> 
> Joseph
> 
> Adrian Tymes wrote:
> 
> >--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>"NEW YORK (CNN) -- New York officials released the latest design
> for
> >>the
> >>signature building at the World Trade Center site Wednesday after
> >>revising
> >>it to make the tower more secure."
> >>
> >>http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/29/wtc.tower.redesign/index.html
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >So...since when has the same public/famous building, other than
> places
> >which house specific individuals (such as the President, or soldiers
> in
> >or near a contested country) that some would want to attack, ever
> been
> >successfully attacked twice?  (Granted, there is some cause and
> effect:
> >once attacked, ever vigilant.  And the politicians want to be seen
> as
> >"doing something", no matter how ineffective.  But still...)
> >_______________________________________________
> >extropy-chat mailing list
> >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 19:24:54 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] [Civil] NH development company seeks eminent
	domain on Souters residence.
In-Reply-To: <20050628212658.50456.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050629192454.28081.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050629/REPOSITORY/506290321/1001/NEWS01

The story is now on the AP, the Boston Globe, Drudge Report, etc. We
are encouraging groups around the country to create similar projects
for the properties of the other four justices who voted for the
majority opinion in this case: Stevens (IL), Breyer (MA), Ginsberg
(NY), and Kennedy (CA). They also have residences in the DC/VA/MD area
as well.

It has likely not been since the Amistad, Dred Scott, and other slavery
related cases that Supreme Court justices have faced such personal
consequences for their rulings. In the Amistad case, 5 of seven
justices were slave owners. Today, all nine are property owners, five
of which voted with the majority opinion in the case of Melo v City of
New London, CT (2005). It is unknown if any mid-19th Century supreme
court justices saw any of their slaves escape via Harriet Tubman's
Underground Railroad.

It is clear, though, that holding these justices to their own standard
is generating significant irony.

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Actually, it is a project I and Ed Naile, of the Coalition of New
> Hampshire Taxpayers, have been working on.... Good to see its getting
> coverage.
> 
> --- Bret Kulakovich <bret at bonfireproductions.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Since so much of our list talks about individual rights and
> freedoms 
> > (or, lack thereof), I thought many of you might enjoy this news.
> > A private developer in New Hampshire is approaching the Weare, NH  
> > Board of Selectmen seeking the property at  34 Cilley Hill Road,
> the 
> > residence of Justice Souter, to develop a hotel complex.
> > 
> > It does not appear to be a hoax.
> > 
> > http://www.freenation.tv/hotellostliberty2.html
> 
> We are mulling a theme park that will have rides such as "The Black
> Hole: Your taxes at work", and "The Slippery Slope: Bill of Rights
> Erosion". The hotel will be built like a concentration camp or a
> slave
> ship/slave quarters and will serve gruel in the restaurant...
> 
> Mike Lorrey
> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>                                       -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
> Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail 
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: 
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 21:39:32 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> >      Well unlike you, I know what I am talking
> about
> >because I was once one of those U.S. soldiers.
> >Eighteen years old and clueless. Wanting to make
> >something out of my life and uncertain as to what
> to
> >do. So I signed up to see the world. I was part of
> the
> >force that invaded Panama to oust Noriega and I
> don't
> >remember you guys getting all in a huff about that.
> 
> Oh? Try: "The Panama Deception"
> 
>
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4078.htm
> 
> "This film shows how the U.S. attacked Panama and
> killed 3 or 4 thousand 
> people in an invasion that the rest of the world was
> against.  (Sound 
> familiar?) It won the Academy Award for best
> documentary."

Ok. But the documentary doesn't show soldiers sharing
their rations with hungry natives that live in what
amounts to cardboard houses in the jungle. Or the
passing out of candy to village youths. Nor does it
show those that fell in love with Panamanian women and
brought them to U.S. Nor does it show the medical
attention army doctors offer wounded civillians or
even enemy soldiers that are not threatening. I could
list many ways that American soldiers show their
humanity in the face of being ordered to do inhumane
things by their superiors. These are not part of the
official policy of the U.S. military. Nobody orders
these soldiers to show compassion and humanity. The
soldiers just do it. Many times they are small things
done on a person to person basis that goes by under
the radar of the brass or the media. The truth is that
when I was on the convoy to the air force base getting
ready to leave Panama, there were thousands of
Panamanians lining the route for most of the 50 miles.
They were cheering and waving. Maybe they were
cheering BECAUSE we were leaving. Or maybe they were
cheering because they genuinely appreciated what we
did for them. I will never be certain why they
cheered. All I know is for that couple of hours will
forever be burned into my mind. I felt like a
triumphant hero or an astronaut recieving a ticker
tape parade. This was despite the fact that I was just
one soldier amongst many in but one truck amoungst
many and had not really done anything all that worthy
of such adulation.      

> 
> Not exactly hiding its light under a Bush-ell.
> 
> True, 3/4000 people is not in the ballpark with
> Iraq.
> 
> >And the reason that the administration gave for
> that
> >one was not WMD or terrorism but simply drugs. Even
> as
> >an 18 year old, I knew that was bullshit but I went
> >any way to do what I saw was my honor bound duty.
> 
> It was obviously bullshit but you were honor-bound?
> This is a strange argument.

This is the Oath of Enlistment that I and all American
soldiers swear upon joining the military:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will
support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that
I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and
that I will obey the orders of the President of the
United States and the orders of the officers appointed
over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code
of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US
Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first
adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October
1962)."

I bring to your attention the part that goes:
"and that I will obey the orders of the President of
the United States and the orders of the officers
appointed over me . . ."

Notice it does not say, ". . . unless the President
lies or is an asshole." It is an oath sworn to the
office of the President and not any particular person
holding that office. Thus one is honor bound to obey
even a jackass like Bush so long as he IS the
President.
Is this clear enough?


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 22:41:10 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:41:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 02:39 PM 6/29/2005 -0700, Stuart wrote:


> > >And the reason that the administration gave for that
> > >one was not WMD or terrorism but simply drugs. Even
> > > as an 18 year old, I knew that was bullshit but I went
> > >any way to do what I saw was my honor bound duty.
> >
> > It was obviously bullshit but you were honor-bound?
> > This is a strange argument.
>
>This is the Oath of Enlistment that I and all American
>soldiers swear upon joining the military:
>
>"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will
>support and defend the Constitution of the United
>States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that
>I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and
>that I will obey the orders of the President of the
>United States and the orders of the officers appointed
>over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code
>of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US
>Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first
>adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October
>1962)."
>
>I bring to your attention the part that goes:
>"and that I will obey the orders of the President of
>the United States and the orders of the officers
>appointed over me . . ."
>...
>Notice it does not say, ". . . unless the President
>lies or is an asshole." It is an oath sworn to the
>office of the President and not any particular person
>holding that office. Thus one is honor bound to obey
>even a jackass like Bush so long as he IS the
>President.
>Is this clear enough?

Agreed, this is a very difficult and troubling topic. An oath must not be 
put aside recklessly or easily. On the other hand, it is obvious that those 
in the Iraq army under Saddam also must have sworn such oaths, as must the 
German military during the Second World War. Indeed, under certain 
circumstances there is a clear moral duty not to obey immoral orders. This 
has been apparent at least since the Nuremberg trials. Consider:

http://www.crisispapers.org/texts/UCMJ.htm

Damien Broderick




From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Wed Jun 29 23:00:15 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:00:15 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 02:39 PM 6/29/2005 -0700, Stuart wrote:
>
>
> Agreed, this is a very difficult and troubling topic. An oath must not 
> be put aside recklessly or easily. On the other hand, it is obvious 
> that those in the Iraq army under Saddam also must have sworn such 
> oaths, as must the German military during the Second World War. 
> Indeed, under certain circumstances there is a clear moral duty not to 
> obey immoral orders. This has been apparent at least since the 
> Nuremberg trials. Consider:
>
> http://www.crisispapers.org/texts/UCMJ.htm
>
> Damien Broderick


Actually, the precedent set at Nuremberg was that one could not obey 
_illegal_ orders. "Morality" being such a nebulous and subjective thing, 
after all. And indeed, there are examples of even SS soldiers refusing 
to participate in atrocities and being reassigned to other duties 
immediately, lest the courts become involved and the whole mess become 
open to public scrutiny. Indeed, it was that very fact that knocked the 
block out from underneath the "I would have been arrested and executed 
if I hadn't done as I was ordered" because, in fact, many people had 
refused and were not arrested for doing so.

Now, that being said, I think there is a WORLD of difference between 
forcing unarmed Communist party officials to dig their own graves for 
summary execution in 1943, and US Marines firing at Iraqi soldiers who 
are armed with machine guns, tanks, and RPGs (or terrorists armed with 
machine guns, suicide bomb-vests, and RPGs). And if any of my European 
(or any other, for that matter) friends cannot see that distinction, 
then I mourn for the loss of any sort of substantive communication 
between us.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jun 29 23:21:25 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:21:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 07:00 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, Joseph wrote:

>I think there is a WORLD of difference between forcing unarmed Communist 
>party officials to dig their own graves for summary execution in 1943, and 
>US Marines firing at Iraqi soldiers who are armed with machine guns, 
>tanks, and RPGs (or terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide 
>bomb-vests, and RPGs). And if any of my European (or any other, for that 
>matter) friends cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for the loss of 
>any sort of substantive communication between us.

The topic was Panama, not Iraq, and the deaths of thousands of civilians on 
a pitiful pretext that Stuart says he knew was bullshit before he left. 
(Note that I am NOT accusing Stuart himself of dishonorable conduct.)

Damien Broderick 



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 23:28:04 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050629232804.75272.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> At 07:00 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, Joseph wrote:
> 
> >I think there is a WORLD of difference between forcing unarmed
> Communist 
> >party officials to dig their own graves for summary execution in
> 1943, and 
> >US Marines firing at Iraqi soldiers who are armed with machine guns,
> 
> >tanks, and RPGs (or terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide 
> >bomb-vests, and RPGs). And if any of my European (or any other, for
> that 
> >matter) friends cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for the
> loss of 
> >any sort of substantive communication between us.
> 
> The topic was Panama, not Iraq, and the deaths of thousands of
> civilians on 
> a pitiful pretext that Stuart says he knew was bullshit before he
> left. 
> (Note that I am NOT accusing Stuart himself of dishonorable conduct.)

Except that Stuart is ignoring the fact that Noriega declared war on
the US five days before the invasion, and killed a US officer. It is
hardly 'bullshit'.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 29 23:52:31 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050629232804.75272.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050629235231.4270.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Except that Stuart is ignoring the fact that Noriega
> declared war on
> the US five days before the invasion, and killed a
> US officer. It is
> hardly 'bullshit'.
> 
 Well sorry for the omission but this is the first I
heard of that. It would not surprise me if something
like that occured, but rank and file soldiers are
hardly "in the loop" when it comes to things like
that. A lot of soldiers being mobilized don't even
know WHERE they are being sent unless they manage to
catch a little CNN before they hop on their C-130s to
do their duty for honor and country.  

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jun 29 23:54:53 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:54:53 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>


On Jun 29, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

>
>
> Actually, the precedent set at Nuremberg was that one could not  
> obey _illegal_ orders. "Morality" being such a nebulous and  
> subjective thing, after all. And indeed, there are examples of even  
> SS soldiers refusing to participate in atrocities and being  
> reassigned to other duties immediately, lest the courts become  
> involved and the whole mess become open to public scrutiny. Indeed,  
> it was that very fact that knocked the block out from underneath  
> the "I would have been arrested and executed if I hadn't done as I  
> was ordered" because, in fact, many people had refused and were not  
> arrested for doing so.
>
> Now, that being said, I think there is a WORLD of difference  
> between forcing unarmed Communist party officials to dig their own  
> graves for summary execution in 1943, and US Marines firing at  
> Iraqi soldiers who are armed with machine guns, tanks, and RPGs (or  
> terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide bomb-vests, and RPGs).  
> And if any of my European (or any other, for that matter) friends  
> cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for the loss of any sort  
> of substantive communication between us.

Do you believe this in the only type of people our military forces  
are firing at, bombing and so on?

- samantha


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 00:15:08 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:15:08 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050629232804.75272.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629232804.75272.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629190859.01cf5328@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 04:28 PM 6/29/2005 -0700, Mike wrote:

>Noriega declared war on
>the US five days before the invasion, and killed a US officer. It is
>hardly 'bullshit'.

That's amazingly impressive and speedy work! Invade a nation with less than 
5 days warning.

There are other versions:

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/panamainv.html

"The US media showed little curiosity about the Dec. 16 confrontation
     that led to the death of a US Marine officer and the injury of another
     when they tried to run a roadblock in front of the PDF headquarters.
     The officers were supposedly "lost."  In view of what is now known
     about the intense pre-invasion preparations then underway ("NY Times,"
     12/24/89), is it possible the Marines were actually trying to track
     Noriega's whereabouts?
       The Panamanian version of the event was that the US soldiers, upon
     being discovered, opened fire--injuring three civilians, including a
     child--and then tried to run the roadblock.  This version was largely
     ignored by US journalists even after the shooting two days later of a
     Panamanian corporal who "signaled a US serviceman to stop," according
     to the administration.  "The US serviceman felt threatened," the
     administration claimed, after admitting that its earlier story that
     the Panamanian had pulled his gun was false ("NYT," 12/19/89)"

Damien Broderick 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 00:16:24 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050630001624.57479.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
> military forces  
> are firing at, bombing and so on?
> 
I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.
In any conflict involving U.S. troops, rules of
engagement are very clearly spelled out, flash cards
summarizing them are issued, and violations are taken
very seriously. These rules explicitly spell out
exactly when and how a soldier is allowed to fire or
return fire on an enemy. Typically such rules are
mission specific. I do not know the specific ROE in
Iraq right now but in Panama they were something like:
Do not fire unless fired upon. Make sure you can
clearly identify and see the target before firing.
Fire only single shots or controlled bursts and do not
spray fire at hidden targets. These rules are clearly
designed to minimize civillian casualties. Especially
since the PDF (Panamanian Defense Force) was known to
drag women and children out into the jungle with them
during ambushes. All in the hopes that we would
accidently shoot one of them and make ourselves look
bad.    

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jun 30 00:20:59 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:20:59 +1000
Subject: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
References: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05b001c57d09$979502b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

The Avantguardian wrote:

> This is the Oath of Enlistment that I and all American
> soldiers swear upon joining the military:
> 
> "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will
> support and defend the Constitution of the United
> States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that
> I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and
> that I will obey the orders of the President of the
> United States and the orders of the officers appointed
> over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code
> of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US
> Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first
> adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October
> 1962)."
> 
> I bring to your attention the part that goes:
> "and that I will obey the orders of the President of
> the United States and the orders of the officers
> appointed over me . . ."
> 
> Notice it does not say, ". . . unless the President
> lies or is an asshole." It is an oath sworn to the
> office of the President and not any particular person
> holding that office. Thus one is honor bound to obey
> even a jackass like Bush so long as he IS the
> President.
> Is this clear enough?

Its clear to me. And an important fact. Thanks for bringing
it up. 

I don't mean to get too gratuitous in the forking of threads
but I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't forget this fact
as I mull over some others that Mike is presenting. 

Sometimes, as I have to do other things as well, I can't 
keep up with the rate at which threads move along, and alas 
*sometimes* I find that I want to pick up discussion on a 
point later but my empassioned friends have fired so many
heated shots that they seem to retire battle weary when the 
solutions might have been within grasp. And then it can be
hard to get the conversation going again. So, I'm putting this
here as a sort  of piton, to fall back to :-)

Brett Paatsch



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 00:21:59 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629190859.01cf5328@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050630002159.74062.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> That's amazingly impressive and speedy work! Invade
> a nation with less than 
> 5 days warning.
> 
Actually there are divisions of the U.S. military like
82nd airborne and, in my case, the now defunct 7th
light infantry division that have rotating rosters of
high alert readiness at all times. Thus at any time
the U.S. can have troops deployed and on the ground
anywhere in the world in less than 48 hours. Which is
also why many soldiers don't even know where they are
going, because they barely have time to pack.   

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
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From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 00:22:30 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:22:30 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C33B46.8000207@humanenhancement.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> The topic was Panama, not Iraq,


Originally, the topic was Iraq, which is, I am sure you'll agree, more 
relevant right now. Picking such nits is beneath you, Damien.

Joseph


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 00:39:43 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:39:43 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
	<F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42C33F4F.9010307@humanenhancement.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:
>
>> Now, that being said, I think there is a WORLD of difference  between 
>> forcing unarmed Communist party officials to dig their own  graves 
>> for summary execution in 1943, and US Marines firing at  Iraqi 
>> soldiers who are armed with machine guns, tanks, and RPGs (or  
>> terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide bomb-vests, and RPGs).  
>> And if any of my European (or any other, for that matter) friends  
>> cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for the loss of any sort  
>> of substantive communication between us.
>
>
> Do you believe this in the only type of people our military forces  
> are firing at, bombing and so on?


Intentionally? Absolutely. Are there going to be unavoidable collateral 
casualties? Equally absolutely. Especially in a situation where parsing 
the enemy from the friendlies from the neutrals is ten times harder 
because the enemy deliberately tries to disguise itself as the latter 
(in contravention of the Geneva Convention which gets tossed about so 
glibly by the anti-American folks, I might add).

But to bring a little perspective into the conversation, compare the 
non-combatant deaths in Iraq (or Panama, for that matter) with those in 
World War II. The United States, in modern warfare, goes to extremes of 
care NOT to inflict collateral damage that would have seemed the height 
of absurdity to the men who planned the fire-bombing of Dresden and the 
dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If we were really possessed of the mind-set the America-bashers (and I 
employ the term loosely, knowing full well it will generate viceral 
reaction) claim, then we would have carpet-bombed Iraq from the outset, 
with no thought to the civilian toll. And yet what did we do instead? We 
were so surgical and meticulous in our attacks that Saddam Hussein 
himself was even given to say, in custody:

"America, they dumb. They bomb wrong palace."

If we were the indiscriminate barbarians some portray us as, there would 
not have been ANY "palaces" remaining after the first three days of the 
air campaign. Or precious little else.

So yes, Samantha, I DO believe that the United States military has shown 
a level of restraint unheard-of in modern history in its conduct of the 
war in Iraq, and it should be lauded for doing so. I do believe that it 
makes every effort to target only those who are trying to kill us. Does 
it sometimes get it wrong? Of course. But do you blame the military who 
is trying to be so precise, or the enemy who is deliberately hiding in 
the homes of innocent people, disguising themselves as noncombatants, 
and infiltrating Iraqi installations posing as friendly forces?

You need to reassess where the blame for innocent deaths lies, Samantha.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 00:42:05 2005
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:42:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Thread discipline (was: Re: Meta: Too far)
In-Reply-To: <42C33B46.8000207@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C33B46.8000207@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629193958.01d47e58@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 08:22 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, Joseph wrote:

>>The topic was Panama, not Iraq,
>
>Originally, the topic was Iraq, which is, I am sure you'll agree, more 
>relevant right now. Picking such nits is beneath you, Damien.

Give me a break. This specific thread began with:

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:51:30 -0500
From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far

Oddly enough, I can remember what it was about.

Damien Broderick 



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Jun 30 00:43:06 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:43:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far [Operation Just Cause: Panama]
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629181900.01d992d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C3401A.9030807@mindspring.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 07:00 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, Joseph wrote:
>
>> I think there is a WORLD of difference between forcing unarmed 
>> Communist party officials to dig their own graves for summary 
>> execution in 1943, and US Marines firing at Iraqi soldiers who are 
>> armed with machine guns, tanks, and RPGs (or terrorists armed with 
>> machine guns, suicide bomb-vests, and RPGs). And if any of my 
>> European (or any other, for that matter) friends cannot see that 
>> distinction, then I mourn for the loss of any sort of substantive 
>> communication between us.
>
>
> The topic was Panama, not Iraq, and the deaths of thousands of 
> civilians on a pitiful pretext that Stuart says he knew was bullshit 
> before he left. (Note that I am NOT accusing Stuart himself of 
> dishonorable conduct.)


< http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/just_cause.htm >

Between 200-500 civilian deaths were estimated with the high figure coming
from the United Nations.

I served in Panama from 1981 to 1984 at SSO Panama.

The Panama Canal is less vital than in past decades but still important 
to world
trade.  The anarchists and do-nothing idealists would have us do nothing.
What maroons!

Terry


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Thu Jun 30 00:50:44 2005
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:50:44 -0400
Subject: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
In-Reply-To: <05b001c57d09$979502b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<05b001c57d09$979502b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <29399372-9101-4E51-A988-9311EC2E0B52@bonfireproductions.com>


Not to mention the horror of these subjects, sub-heads, and  
organization of the threads thereof.

"Re: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far "

?


]3


On Jun 29, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Sometimes, as I have to do other things as well, I can't keep up  
> with the rate at which threads move along,

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 00:50:53 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <42C2C644.2040607@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <20050630005053.50095.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:

> Personally, I prefer Donald Trump's idea to simply
> remake the towers, 
> off the old footprints, one storey taller. (And, as
> more than one wag 
> has put it, with surface-to-air missiles installed
> on the observation deck.)

I don't really think that surface to air missiles on a
building in a crowded area like Manhattan would be all
that great of an idea. Yeah, the people in the
building would be safe, but a burning fully fueled jet
liner crashing anywhere in Manhattan would have been a
disaster. 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 00:57:05 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far [Operation Just Cause: Panama]
In-Reply-To: <42C3401A.9030807@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20050630005705.19507.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>



--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:

> The Panama Canal is less vital than in past decades
> but still important 
> to world
> trade.  The anarchists and do-nothing idealists
> would have us do nothing.
> What maroons!
> 
 I agree that it was very strategically important for
us to maintain control of the Canal Zone despite
having promised to return it to Panama in 1990. But
why couldn't the Bush (yeah it was a Bush then
too)administration have just come out and said, "We
need the Panama Canal and Noriega can't be trusted to
control it?" Instead of "Noriega caters to drug
traffickers through his country." The lie just makes
me feel dirty for doing the right thing.
 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 00:58:52 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:58:52 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <20050630005053.50095.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630005053.50095.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C343CC.3080806@humanenhancement.com>

Do you have a PayPal account? I'd like to wire you some money so you can 
buy a sense of humor.

Joseph

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Personally, I prefer Donald Trump's idea to simply
>>remake the towers, 
>>off the old footprints, one storey taller. (And, as
>>more than one wag 
>>has put it, with surface-to-air missiles installed
>>on the observation deck.)
>>    
>>
>
>I don't really think that surface to air missiles on a
>building in a crowded area like Manhattan would be all
>that great of an idea. Yeah, the people in the
>building would be safe, but a burning fully fueled jet
>liner crashing anywhere in Manhattan would have been a
>disaster. 
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
>"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
>-Bill Watterson
>
>
>		
>__________________________________ 
>Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
>Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
>http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 00:59:20 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:59:20 -0400
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>	<03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>	<049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>	<002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
Message-ID: <42C343E8.406@humanenhancement.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Frankly, a true and correct vision of transhumanism would not be 
> nationalistic, but for the future - whatever organization of people 
> and governing/ruling of society takes place.
>
> Just like pitting one country against another, pitting one political 
> position against another is lacking in scope and sorely missing the 
> thrust of transhumanism.
>
> This is precisely why I oppose the forced democracy of WTA and the 
> insistence by James Hughes, Mike, or Dirk -  or any of us that one 
> political position is better than another and that people have to fit 
> neatly into a political box.  All of them - us - have positive things 
> to offer to the world and it would be good to see them realized rather 
> than used to dismiss and/or criticize others within our community.
>
> What we need to do is to get futuristic and learn how to rise above 
> this 20th Century inability to resolve conflict.


I confess I (uncharacteristically) disagree on one level, Natasha, but 
agree on another.

Once we have achieved a PostHuman era, I agree completely that 
contemporary definitions of nationalism and political philosophy as a 
whole will be tossed out the window (by the PostHumans, that is). Once 
the first handful of us achieves the transition to true PostHuman 
status, we will begin to evolve political and social structures that are 
so beyond the imagination of us poor pre-PostHumans as to make our 
current speculations the stuff of kindergarden games.

And yet, we remain pre-PostHumans, and as such are constrained to act 
within our current limitations and psychological and social constraints. 
Our focus must perforce be not to puzzle out what sort of 
politico-socio-economic structure should or will be in place in a 
PostHuman world, but rather which contemporary structure is most 
conducive to bringing it about.

I say that if wrapping Transhumanism in the flag (whichever flag) will 
make it more palatable to the masses, and thus more likely to be adopted 
as a world-view and common vision, then wrap away! If that means that an 
America inspired by a Transhumanist vision melded with the American 
Dream ends up being the most effective way of bringing about the >H 
future, then so be it. If it means that a China inspired by a 
Transhumanist vision melded with a fusion of Chinese nationalism and 
post-Maoist ideology ends up being the most effective way of bringing 
about the >H future, than so be IT.

Nationalism, like anything else, can be a means to an end. In our case, 
that end is a PostHuman existence. We cannot, by definition, say what 
that existence will be like. But we can, with at least a modicum of 
insight, say which contemporary ideologies are most likely to bring 
about the PostHuman era.

My money is on the mixed capitalism of the United States, ultimately. 
Others may have different thoughts as to which nation(s) are most likely 
to usher in the >H era. Vive la difference! Let the better strategy win. 
I hope we'll all be friends during, and after, the competition.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 01:07:38 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <42C343CC.3080806@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <20050630010738.54385.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:

> Do you have a PayPal account? I'd like to wire you
> some money so you can 
> buy a sense of humor.
> 
> Joseph
> 

 Enough to buy a good one? Or will I have to buy the
economy model and be doomed to tell lame jokes. :)

 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 01:18:07 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:18:07 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <20050630010738.54385.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630010738.54385.qmail@web60520.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C3484F.30707@humanenhancement.com>

LOL!

I am Zinged. ;-)

Joseph

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Joseph Bloch <jbloch at humanenhancement.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Do you have a PayPal account? I'd like to wire you
>>some money so you can 
>>buy a sense of humor.
>>
>>Joseph
>>
>>    
>>
>
> Enough to buy a good one? Or will I have to buy the
>economy model and be doomed to tell lame jokes. :)
>
> 
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
>"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
>-Bill Watterson
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>


From neuronexmachina at gmail.com  Thu Jun 30 01:19:44 2005
From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:19:44 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
In-Reply-To: <20050628073041.76367.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628010614.01ce5908@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050628073041.76367.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e88b73ce0506291819165cfec4@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/28/05, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > At 10:50 PM 6/27/2005 -0700, spike wrote:
> >
> > >the use of the obscure term "boffins."
> >
> > This is a British term derived from "to boff", or
> > perform an act of
> > carnality. It was attributed to scientists due to
> > their notable sexual allure.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up. Here I thought boffins
> were those guys in Star Wars that died to get the
> plans to the death star into the rebellion's hands.
> And I didn't know that you Brits think we scientists
> are so boffable. :)

Actually, I could have sworn that boffins were the
pvc-pipe-covered-with-foam-padding swords that people repeatedly hit
each other with for fun.

Or maybe that's boffers...

http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/Boffer-Generic.html

-- Neil


From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Thu Jun 30 02:24:00 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:24:00 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
Message-ID: <1120098240.14795@whirlwind.he.net>

Avantguardian wrote:
> Actually there are divisions of the U.S. military like
> 82nd airborne and, in my case, the now defunct 7th
> light infantry division that have rotating rosters of
> high alert readiness at all times.


Well I'll be damned.  Who would have thought there was more than one
former Lightfighter on this list (yeah, me too many moons ago).  I
remember an unofficial survey on the extropians list many years ago of
how many on the list were ex-military and they came out of the woodwork.
 There were a lot of geeks and proto-extropians in the military when I
was in -- it is not a cadre of ill-educated hicks as is a popular notion.

I'll just confirm what Avantguardian stated.  The US military can put
about 50,000 soldiers anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat, with
not insignificant theater support.  It might have been more in Reagan's
time.  For a third-rate banana republic like Panama, that is more than
enough to do the job.

cheers,

j. andrew rogers



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Thu Jun 30 02:33:38 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:33:38 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
Message-ID: <1120098818.17572@whirlwind.he.net>

Avantguardian wrote:
> I don't really think that surface to air missiles on a
> building in a crowded area like Manhattan would be all
> that great of an idea. Yeah, the people in the
> building would be safe, but a burning fully fueled jet
> liner crashing anywhere in Manhattan would have been a
> disaster. 


When they wheel out the MANPADs and similar around Washington DC at
particular times, I often wonder if it isn't for show.  Such weapon
systems are nigh useless against a jetliner -- such aircraft are way
outside the kill specifications.

For a normal commercial jet, you need something on the order of the big
naval surface-to-air missiles to have a prayer of stopping it where it
stands.  Whatever makes people feel protected I guess...


cheers,

j. andrew rogers



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jun 30 02:49:39 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:49:39 +1000
Subject: Iraq and legality again Re:
	[extropy-chat]ProfessorBeingSuedOverAnti-Agi
References: <20050629012258.55698.qmail@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05ee01c57d1e$5c344ef0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, in Article 2, Section 1, Clause 8, of my hardcopy printout
>> of the US Constitution, the link to which you provided earlier, it
>> says of the President:
>>
>> ' Before he enter into the Execution of his Office, he shall take the
>> following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that
>> I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United
>> States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and
>> defend the Constitution of the United States." '
>>
>> I don't know in what other documents other oaths for lesser offices
>> of public trust might reside, perhaps it is even the case that the
>> oath for lesser offices are derivative of this one, which in itself
>> would be instructive? Nonetheless, I think it might well be
>> significant that the drafters and of the Constitution saw fit to have
>> a specific clause relating to the Presidential Oath. A Presidential
>> Oath, is, and must be, a personal Oath of honour of the most
>> powerful executive in the land to the people of that land.
>
> Of course, and every word of that oath when it is sworn to or
> affirmed is open to the understanding of the person making the
> oath or affirmation, i.e. "it depends on what the meaning of the
> word 'is'  is..."

The word 'is' doesn't occur in the Presidential Oath.

Until I see evidence to the contrary I am can't credit that the men
and women that are judges on the Supreme Court, and who are
Americans as well, would allow injustice to occur *purely* because
some 'slick-willy' word game defence might be tried out on them.

>> I wonder if the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS),
>> like me, might take a particularly firm view in the case of a President,
>> and especially in the case of a President that actually did send in
>> the armed forces which should be the most serious and last choice
>> of such a Constitutionally empowered and people entrusted
>> Executive.
>
> The executive is the commander in chief of the armed forces, and has
> war powers of his own beyond the power to declare war that the
> Congress has.


> Primarily so the President can do his job when congress
> is not in session, it is also to prevent a treasonous faction from
> hamstringing the nation (as the southern states attempted by walking
> out of congress in 1860, leaving it in a rump state) by rumping or
> filibustering.
>
> How the President prosecutes his executive job is beyond the
> authority of congress to second guess.

At the time the President does it, I think that must logically and
logistically be so, military decisions *do* have to be made in real
time and by someone and that someone is the President and head
of the armed forces.

Yet the whole point of having a procedure for impeaching the
President is to give the people (the "we the people" people)
through the congress and/or the Supreme Court a way to check
a President that is either mentally off the rails or is, or has, acted
dishonourably and in bad faith thereby bringing the office and the
honour of the United States into disrepute around the world.

Impeachment can only be for something retrospective. Just like
a trial, to be part of a just process can only be retrospective.
That is all the more reason surely to use the impeachment tool
that the Constitution provides when it is appropriate to use it.

It cannot, be unpatriotic or un-American or un-Republican to
consider the case for impeachment dispassionately (or even
passionately) when the Constitution provides to it.

A soldier on the very front rank of battle may not easily or
often be in a position where it is *practical* with regard to his
own life and the lives of his comrades, to stop and say this is
just wrong, legally wrong, morally wrong, strategically wrong,
"please America impeach the man that is the President and give
me an honourable President under which to serve", but if he or
she should do so he would not be breaking his oath of
enlistment that I can see.

Do you agree?

> If they pass specific legislation that mandates specific things and he
> doesn't do them, or else they prohibit certain things and he does
> them (as was the case during the Iran-Contra issue in the Reagan
> era), the congress can then build a case against him.

Legislation such as say, that which was included in the White House
statement of 2 October 2002, which you provided the link to earlier
and which is headed Joint Resolution to Authorise the Use of United
States Armed Forces Against Iraq, and says a lot of things but also
this:

"Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush [and no one else
or lesser in authority than President Bush himself - this brackets, my
addition for emphasis] committed the United States to "work with the
United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge"
posed by Iraq and to "work for the necessary resolutions," while also
making clear that "the Security Council resolutions [*all* the relevant
one's not just those that seem good to George W Bush personally] will
be enforced [lawfully], and the just demands of peace and security will
be met, or action will be unavoidable",

then the legislation with the Short Title "Authorisation for the Use of
Military Force Against Iraq" follows including Sections 2, Support For
United States Diplomatic Efforts and 3 Authorisation for Use of United
States Armed Forces.

Sec 2. says

"The Congress of the United States supports the efforts of the
President to -

(a) strictly enforce THROUGH THE United Nations Security Council
all relevant Security Council resolutions to Iraq and encourages him
in those efforts; and

(b) obtain prompt and decisive action [but not unlawfully and
unconstitutionally !]  by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq
abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and non-compliance and
promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council
resolutions.

Sec 3, Authorisation for Use of United States Armed Forces, says.

(a) AUTHORISATION. The President is authorised [but not required!]
to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be
necessary and appropriate [please note these words don't say as he
believes expedient or as a tool for foreign policy pursued unlawfully] in
order to

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions
regarding Iraq.    [All, would include 1441 once it was made]

So Mike, it seems to me clear that at no stage did the Congress
do anything more than empower the US President to act lawfully
and constitutionally with respect to Iraq. They did not relieve him
of his Oath, they did not relive him of any obligation to obey
US law, including the US law concerning duly ratified treaties,
one of which is the UN Charter.

Do you agree with this? Are you still following or did the train of
legal stuff, all of which I've extracted from documents and links you
have provided me, get too hard to follow? (I am still building up
my skills in presenting legal arguments too you see :-)



>> Has the SCOTUS ever, to your knowledge, allowed the good
>> faith defence in a case such as this.(ie. a US President, having
>> deployed the armed forces to invade a UN member state for
>> weapons of mass destruction that were subsequently not found)
>> I, for one, cannot recall a case such as, or substantially like this,
>> but perhaps my understanding of US history is letting me down.
>
> There is no such case,

Thanks I didn't think that there was.

                                 ... however Vietnam comes very close in 
that
> the Tonkin Gulf Incident is widely regarded as a hoax, and
>furthermore, the congressional authorization of force clearly states
>one of the two goals of the use of force is to enforce all UN
> resolutions in Iraq (not just those having to do with WMD),

I did indeed notice that, see my comments above.

> so there really is nothing to dispute: Bush was doing what congress
> told him to do, not one bit more or less.

Ah, but he certainly would have been doing more if he broke his
oath and broke the law of the US as the Congress did not authorise
him to do that anywhere.  Don't you agree?

> If Bush was relying more on what his invisible friend told him
> more than the CIA when he advised congress that WMD was
> a problem (and given the CIA's record, I would rather believe
> a hallucination), the congress might feel they were snowed if
> Bush didn't clearly explain the true basis of his convictions, (sic)
> but the fact is that only some UN resolutions dealt with WMD,
> particularly the original resolutions dealing with the first Gulf
> War and the cease fire agreement.

There seems to be a non sequitor in your sentence at the place
where I put the sic.

Yes if Bush was relying on his invisible friend when he advised
congress that WMD's were a problem then, yes, Congress
probably would have felt snowed. Quite rightly.

And if Bush misrepresented or doctored or filtered what the
CIA told him to the Congress, same result.

Congress really must be able to rely on the President to uphold
his Oath in such serious times as he is the critical bottleneck
not the CIA director or anyone else.

>>
>> Well of course if they are innocent and did act in good faith
>> then they should walk.
>>
>> However, if they testify in the SCOTUS say, I'm not sure that's
>> the appropriate forum but whatever it is that's a detail,
>
> Yeah, you don't testify before the SCOTUS, they only hear
> arguments from party attorneys and amicus submitters, as well as
> overview the record of lower court rulings.

Okay.

> In an impeachment, the Chief Justice of SCOTUS presides over
> impeachment trials, but it is the Senate that is the jury and the
> House's chosen representatives who are the prosecutors.

Okay. I remember some of this now from reading the Constitution,
I do apologise if I am slow coming up to speed on the US constitution,
it is hard to keep the details in one's head. Thanks.

>>
>> All of this would be an excellent process to go through in my view
>> to underscore the immense importance that the United States
>> supreme court places in oath taking and in justice being done in
>> any case, even if the President, Vice President and Secretary of
>> Defense "walk", their characters will have been examined and
>> shown to be clean if they are.
>
> This is questionable. As partisan as things are today over court
> appointments, and the Bush v Gore ruling, the left is convinced that
> whenever they lose, it is the 'conservative majority' being partisan,
> while the right calls any loss legislating from the bench (which in
> most cases it is, such as the eminent domain ruling the other day).

Well, I'd like to continue considering the mechanics of impeachment
here with you because its a great way to learn and an important
topic.  I do realise that politics is of course going to be a part of
any potential impeachment as a President is either going to come
from the Republican party or the Democrats and the party faithful
are not going to ever like seeing their party disgraced, and yet of
course that isn't what impeachment is about at all.

>> > Sure, but that was a can of worms that was opened by Clinton, and
>> > every Democrat in congress chose to cover his ass, so the damage
>> > is already done, there is no public trust right now to defend or
>> protect.
>>
>> Is that a fact? I don't really understand the impeachment process
>> quite well enough obviously, as an Australian I confess I wasn't
>> paying all that much attention to the legal consequences of Clinton
>> deciding to US the Presidential office as an adjuct to gained sexual
>> favours from an intern, but I suppose I should have, it is pretty
>> unsavory when one thinks of it.
>
> At the time, Clinton and his allies were prosecuting executives and
> military officers all over the country for having workplace
> relationships. Some were consensual relationships, others were
> coerced.

I can see how that would have particularly rankled. Hypocrisy is not
something people anywhere like in others.

> The Clinton Administration policy was that any personal relationship
> between a superior and persons below them was 'sexual harrassment'
> because of the disparity of power between the two. Clinton even went so
> far as to drag a retired admiral out of retirement so that he could be
> prosecuted under the UCMJ for a consensual relationship with a
> subordinate while on active duty years before.

Okay.

> All of this is immaterial to what Clinton was impeached over, except to
> illustrate the atmosphere that the Clintons promulgated in the American
> workplace in the 1990's.

Yes.

>Given this policy, when it was found that
> Clinton may have violated this policy himself with a consensual
> workplace sexual relationship with a subordinate, it was clear to many
> that excuses that Kennedy, Roosevelt, and other past presidents had
> affairs was immaterial to the fact that Clinton held others to a higher
> standard than he held himself to.

Okay. But my thought is that in any system where oaths are taken it is
at the highest level, where most is at stake, that oath breakers need to
be hit with the full measure of the law and the scrutiny of the people,
so that the message not to break oaths can trickle down.

> This hypocrisy (the only valid crime,
> according to liberals) was obviously something to check into, but, like
> many other allegations of Clinton behavior over the years, it was
> covered up, except in this case, someone had it on tape. Linda Tripp's
> taping of conversations with Lewinski put the lie to Clinton's denial
> on nationwide television.

>While it was not court testimony, it was a
> slap in the face to many. What was court testimony was when he
> testified in the investigation of his coverup and treatment of Tripp,
> and made the ill advised equivocation about the meaning of the word
> 'is'.

What was the forum in which he gave that equivocation on the meaning
of the word "is". That episode seems to have embedded itself in the
American psyche and seems to remain there as a jading influence making
people distrustful of being able to use their own institutions to hold high
office bearers to account.

>This testimony was something that nobody could cover up, nobody
> could deny rationally. The GOP had the goods as much as any Perry Mason
> courtroom episode. It was the perjury before the grand jury, televised,
> that he was impeached on.

Right the perjury.

> Despite the claims of his apologists, it wasn't "about sex", it was
> about perjury. There was no chance of a 'good faith' equivocation.

Okay.

>> Not, however, anywhere near by a country mile, as wrong
>> though as sending one's nations armed service men and women into
>> harms way on a pretext or a lie.
>
> Yes and no.

I still say yes.

>Clinton, you may recall, chose to bomb alleged al qaeda
> bases (including a pharmaceutical plant) in order to deflect news
> attention from the increasing allegations of his affair (the act of
> using military force conflicted with his administrations long standing
> policy of treating terrorism as a crime to be prosecuted).

I don't recall.

>Killing
> innocent people in order to avoid a PR scandal, versus Bush acting in
> good faith to defend the nation, and the argument can be made that
> Clinton's actions were the more despicable and craven.

Only if Bush was acting in good faith though, don't you agree?

>>
>> > Any attempt by Democrats to impeach Bush would just be seen as
>> > partisanship.
>>
>> As a matter of fact I am not a Democrat. You are not a Democrat
>> so far as I know so if we can countenance it as a possible path for
>> a higher purpose then I am sure others, probably including card
>> carrying Republicans might too, especially once the thing got
>> rolling.
>
> President Johnson led the nation through some six years of Vietnam,
> using terrible tactics and strategy, refusing to win, and using heinous
> rules of engagement that hamstrung the troops. Johnson got us into
> Vietnam based on the fraudulent Tonkin Gulf Incident. Some say it was a
> hoax, others say it was honest mistakes, but the fact stands it got us
> into a war that the American people were not prepared to win, or at
> least were not prepared to resist the propaganda of the enemy.


>>
>> >Those in his own party most likely to support such an
>> > attempt are regarded as RINOs - Republicans in name only, so
>> > they are generally democrats in conservative states.
>>
>> I first saw the term RINO only recently in The Australian,
>> interestingly
>> it was used in relation to the new US Ambassador to Australia and
>> in relation to Senator John McCain, both Republicans, and both men
>> who have served their country in battle as I understand it.
>
> Yes, McCain is a RINO. Bush Sr. was generally regarded as one until the
> Gulf War, Arlen Specter is another, as was William Weld of
> Massachusetts.

Ok, actually, lest I unintentionally mislead you, I read today in the
Australian that Australia is currently without a US Ambassador in
Canberra.  The "RINO" whose name escapes me was not apparently
an actual appointment.

What impresses me though, according to the chief political editor
of the Australian, is that Ambassadorial appointments are usually
political appointments by the President, this makes sense as the President
would want to have good lines of communication with his allied
countries, however it also points out a danger.

John Howard and Tony Blair, that lined up with the Bush administration
over the Iraq invasion probably did not have a great deal of access
to the US President in order to know his mind. They would have had
to rely on him, and on his speaking to them in good faith.

A US President determined to use a pretext to go to war could, given
the way the system is set up, mislead and draw his allies into a war
with him, if he was in bad faith.

That is another reason why I really, really want to see whether the
US President was acting in good faith at the critical junctures.

My countrymen go into harms way with the US when the cause is
right and that is right, but I do not want them going into harms way
when the cause is not right. We do not have the protection of the
US Bill of rights. We cannot impeach our Prime Minister, even if
he deserves it, like the US can impeach its President.

Though a legal case could be made and has been considered
against the Prime Minister if he broke the law our constitution is
not as strong on this point as the US.

>>
>> > Impeaching Bush would only
>> > deepen the rancor and divisiveness in this nation.
>>
>> I wonder about that.
>>
>> I certainly have no doubt that the US could find many capable
>> men and women for that matter to hold the Presidency, the
>> Vice Presidency and the Secretary of Defence positions.
>
> I am sure as well, but that isn't the point. The point is that the
> polarizing partisanship here today keeps pushing things to the
> extreme. Impeachment is about as extreme as you can get.

I don't think so. No blood is lost in an impeachment.

You and I know that one cannot take the politics out of life.
People have strong feeling on things. We need the law to be
upheld or there is no law that citizens can rely on and that
means that when there is a case for impeachment we need
to do it.

Brett Paatsch




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Jun 30 02:54:08 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:54:08 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Kyoto bill creates $1 billion deficit
Message-ID: <42C35ED0.80001@mindspring.com>

The Greenies of New Zealand were panting to ratify Kyoto because they 
thought they'd make a killing selling carbon credits to other 
countries. But then...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?mode=headlines&c_id=3&ObjectID=10331130

Thursday June 30, 2005  

Kyoto bill creates $1 billion deficit

17.06.05

By Brian Fallow

Taxpayers will be at least $1 billion worse off under revised 
Government estimates of the costs of the Kyoto treaty to combat 
global warming.

National's environment spokesman, Nick Smith, says the party, if 
elected, will consider pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol, despite the 
cost to New Zealand's international reputation, given the "hammering" 
the economy will take under the latest numbers. "It's a huge 
stuff-up." [Yes. Yes it is. --BW]

Revised projections released by the Climate Change Minister Pete 
Hodgson yesterday show we are likely to exceed our Kyoto target for 
net emissions of greenhouses gases by 36 million tonnes of carbon 
dioxide during the treaty's first commitment period, 2008 to 2012.

New Zealand would have to buy carbon credits from other Kyoto 
countries to cover that shortfall.

That is a big turnaround from last year's projections which had us in 
credit to the tune of 33 million tonnes.

At an indicative carbon price of $15 a tonne (the value used to set 
the carbon tax due to come into effect in 2007), that is a switch 
from a gain of nearly $500 million to cost of more than $500 million, 
which would fall to the taxpayer.

Taking the current price of $34 a tonne taxpayers would need to find 
$1.23 billion to buy credits on the international market.

The biggest change from last year's estimates is a 24 per cent or 38 
million tonne increase in the emissions expected from vehicle 
exhausts and smokestacks, especially the former.

That is driven by more refined modelling of the impact of economic 
growth on energy use.

Petrol and diesel represent about 35 per cent of energy demand and 
there has been little observable improvement in the efficiency with 
which those fuels are used.

The other major change is on the credit side of the ledger, where 
Kyoto's rules allow credits for the carbon dioxide taken out of the 
atmosphere by forests planted on land not previously forested.

The benefit from these forest sink credits has been revised down by 
24 million tonnes or 25 per cent.

Most of that, 15 million tonnes, is because pine trees planted on 
land previously covered with scrub are not now to be counted as 
eligible for credits.
But it also reflects a collapse in the rate of new planting of 
commercial forests and an increase in deforestation, which creates a 
liability under Kyoto's rules.

The 36 million tonnes deficit is officials' "most likely scenario" estimate.
The outcome could be up to 25 million tonnes better or worse than 
that, depending on the assumptions made.

But even the optimistic scenario has New Zealand as a net buyer of 
carbon credits in the end.

When we ratified Kyoto in 2002 one of the reasons Hodgson gave for 
doing so was that not to ratify would be to set fire to "a very big 
cheque". Then we were assumed to have a net credit position of 55 
million tonnes.



-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jun 30 05:42:57 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:42:57 +1000
Subject: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
References: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com><05b001c57d09$979502b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<29399372-9101-4E51-A988-9311EC2E0B52@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <061201c57d36$9198e6b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

Sorry :-)

I can deconstuct that for you by reading from the right and using the Re:s
as place holders.

I had posted a post headed "Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and 
legality again".
The discussion had been about "Iraq and legality" which this list has 
discussed before, going
right back to before the invasion of Iraq in fact.

I meta'ed a post that I thought, rightly or not, was not really about "Iraq 
and legality again"
but was an attack on two posters.

This Meta'ing, wise or otherwise by me, caused interest, and people joined 
the
discussion that before hand had not been in it.

Damien then pruned the subject header to "Re: Meta: Too far " dropping the 
rest of the
header but leaving my miss spelling of too.

The list reply process adds "Re: [extropy-chat]" to the front of anything, 
so we got
"Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far".

Because I have been following all of the conversation including the 
diversions I
can actually make sense of the header and did want to retain something of 
its
history because others like me may be able to read it and get meaning from 
it.

I pit the words "The Oath of Enlistment was" at the front of what to me was
and still is meaningful.

I don't mind if someone else prunes it, or leaves it, I will be able to find 
it
if I want to anyway.

Hope the above clarifies, if clarification, was necessary.

I think it was Einstein that said things should be as simple as possible but
no simpler.

Brett Paatsch


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bret Kulakovich
To: ExI chat list
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far




Not to mention the horror of these subjects, sub-heads, and organization of 
the threads thereof.


"Re: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far "


?




]3




On Jun 29, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:


Sometimes, as I have to do other things as well, I can't keep up with the 
rate at which threads move along,





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat 




From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun 30 05:59:17 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:59:17 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Kyoto bill creates $1 billion deficit
In-Reply-To: <42C35ED0.80001@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <200506300559.j5U5xER07540@tick.javien.com>

I'm proud of New Zealand for being honest enough to
admit this.  I must conclude that whatever is true for
NZ is likely true elsewhere as well: they signed on for
the money, at least partly.

Assuming that, what happens when the Kyoto agreement
is no longer profitable and starts to actually cost 
big money.  Why would we think that carbon-deficit nations 
would or could pay up?  Would the prime ministers
of the really poor nations tell their people their taxes 
are going up in order to pay for carbon dioxide emissions?
What if the really rich nations figured out how to reduce
emissions?  Would the poor nations then pay the rich?  
Willingly?  I think not.  And even if they did, I wouldn't
want to take their money.

The right way to reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere
is to build nuclear power plants.  I see no better way.

Excellent article Terry!  {8-]  spike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Terry W. Colvin
> Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Kyoto bill creates $1 billion deficit
> 
> The Greenies of New Zealand were panting to ratify Kyoto because they
> thought they'd make a killing selling carbon credits to other
> countries. But then...
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?mode=headlines&c_id=3&ObjectID=1033113
> 0
> 
> Thursday June 30, 2005
> 
> Kyoto bill creates $1 billion deficit
> 
> 17.06.05
> 
> By Brian Fallow
> 
> Taxpayers will be at least $1 billion worse off under revised
> Government estimates of the costs of the Kyoto treaty to combat
> global warming.
> 
> National's environment spokesman, Nick Smith, says the party, if
> elected, will consider pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol, despite the
> cost to New Zealand's international reputation, given the "hammering"
> the economy will take under the latest numbers. "It's a huge
> stuff-up." [Yes. Yes it is. --BW]...
> ...
> When we ratified Kyoto in 2002 one of the reasons Hodgson gave for
> doing so was that not to ratify would be to set fire to "a very big
> cheque". Then we were assumed to have a net credit position of 55
> million tonnes.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 06:22:46 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <1120098818.17572@whirlwind.he.net>
Message-ID: <20050630062246.84278.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>



--- "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew at ceruleansystems.com>
wrote:

> For a normal commercial jet, you need something on
> the order of the big
> naval surface-to-air missiles to have a prayer of
> stopping it where it
> stands.  Whatever makes people feel protected I
> guess...
> 

A bigger missile is the wrong solution anyways. The
best solution is not let the jet get hijacked in the
first place. Since a high percentage of commercial
pilots are ex-military any way, they should just
require commercial airline pilots be in the reserves
or national guard to stay in shape and issue them
weapons permits. Who needs skymarshalls or
anti-aircraft artillery when one of the pilots is a
veteran reservist with a .45? How much does a
reservist get paid for his weekend a month and two
weeks a year? How much is a .45? You could arm every
pilot in every airline for less than a dozen missiles.

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/


From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Thu Jun 30 07:10:33 2005
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:10:33 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
Message-ID: <1120115433.7154@whirlwind.he.net>

Avantguardian wrote:
> A bigger missile is the wrong solution anyways.


Of course.  I was addressing the question at hand, not endorsing a solution.


> The best solution is not let the jet get hijacked
> in the first place. Since a high percentage of
> commercial pilots are ex-military any way, they
> should just require commercial airline pilots be
> in the reserves or national guard to stay in shape
> and issue them weapons permits.


I'm sorry, but that makes too much sense.

Seriously though, that would solve 95% of the problems.  Give the pilots
(many of whom really are ex-military) and crew guns and training and
authorize them to do whatever they feel is required to save the plane.
Problem solved without having a million mouth-breathers working for the
TSA and accomplishing nothing.  Let machines scan for explosives, and
let the flight crew scan for assholes.  Problem solved at very little cost.



j. andrew rogers





From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Thu Jun 30 09:58:30 2005
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:58:30 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <20050630062246.84278.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630062246.84278.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506301155550.11244@zeus>

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>A bigger missile is the wrong solution anyways. The
>best solution is not let the jet get hijacked in the
>first place.

Speaking of which, have significant hijacking happened since 9/11? I
remember thinking that no hijacker would have a chance after that day,
because all the passengers would jump on him instead of staying quiet like
before.  And, actually, I don't seem to remember any news about hijacking
in the last few years. Is this correct?

Alfio


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 11:03:35 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:03:35 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050630001624.57479.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630001624.57479.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CB516E9D-DC89-47CE-B966-FAC8A4062FF7@mac.com>


On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:16 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
>> military forces
>> are firing at, bombing and so on?
>>
>>
> I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
> people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.

You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never kept conflicts  
free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian targets.  Check  
out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can guarantee no such  
thing.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 11:06:20 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:06:20 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <42C33F4F.9010307@humanenhancement.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>
	<F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>
	<42C33F4F.9010307@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <8F15420C-8E0E-4FFF-9821-903659746444@mac.com>


On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:39 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Now, that being said, I think there is a WORLD of difference   
>>> between forcing unarmed Communist party officials to dig their  
>>> own  graves for summary execution in 1943, and US Marines firing  
>>> at  Iraqi soldiers who are armed with machine guns, tanks, and  
>>> RPGs (or  terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide bomb-vests,  
>>> and RPGs).  And if any of my European (or any other, for that  
>>> matter) friends  cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for  
>>> the loss of any sort  of substantive communication between us.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Do you believe this in the only type of people our military  
>> forces  are firing at, bombing and so on?
>>
>
>
> Intentionally? Absolutely. Are there going to be unavoidable  
> collateral casualties? Equally absolutely. Especially in a  
> situation where parsing the enemy from the friendlies from the  
> neutrals is ten times harder because the enemy deliberately tries  
> to disguise itself as the latter (in contravention of the Geneva  
> Convention which gets tossed about so glibly by the anti-American  
> folks, I might add).

I have nothing to say in the face of this level of denial.

- s


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 11:14:33 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:14:33 -0700
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
In-Reply-To: <42C343E8.406@humanenhancement.com>
References: <20050628021301.15028.qmail@web60523.mail.yahoo.com>
	<42C0B6B1.3020403@neopax.com>
	<002201c57ba4$4d446c70$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<038301c57ba9$77533b40$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<5D8E0F37-7FC0-4A8C-A133-0B4A960FB232@mac.com>
	<03e301c57bd3$2a5979b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<C1825B18-C899-4D6E-A691-71BFDBA45AAB@mac.com>
	<049001c57c2e$397bc640$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<002301c57c73$0ef35b00$5b91fea9@maniaugal3qk6z>
	<6.2.1.2.2.20050629073334.047ec8d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com>
	<42C343E8.406@humanenhancement.com>
Message-ID: <04F28782-C2CF-413E-81B8-4897D89B5B82@mac.com>


On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:59 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>
>
>> Frankly, a true and correct vision of transhumanism would not be  
>> nationalistic, but for the future - whatever organization of  
>> people and governing/ruling of society takes place.
>>
>> Just like pitting one country against another, pitting one  
>> political position against another is lacking in scope and sorely  
>> missing the thrust of transhumanism.
>>
>> This is precisely why I oppose the forced democracy of WTA and the  
>> insistence by James Hughes, Mike, or Dirk -  or any of us that one  
>> political position is better than another and that people have to  
>> fit neatly into a political box.  All of them - us - have positive  
>> things to offer to the world and it would be good to see them  
>> realized rather than used to dismiss and/or criticize others  
>> within our community.
>>
>> What we need to do is to get futuristic and learn how to rise  
>> above this 20th Century inability to resolve conflict.
>>
>
>
> I confess I (uncharacteristically) disagree on one level, Natasha,  
> but agree on another.
>
> Once we have achieved a PostHuman era, I agree completely that  
> contemporary definitions of nationalism and political philosophy as  
> a whole will be tossed out the window (by the PostHumans, that is).  
> Once the first handful of us achieves the transition to true  
> PostHuman status, we will begin to evolve political and social  
> structures that are so beyond the imagination of us poor pre- 
> PostHumans as to make our current speculations the stuff of  
> kindergarden games.

I don't believe we will get to posthumanity if we do not change some  
of  these things as soon as possible.
>
> And yet, we remain pre-PostHumans, and as such are constrained to  
> act within our current limitations and psychological and social  
> constraints. Our focus must perforce be not to puzzle out what sort  
> of politico-socio-economic structure should or will be in place in  
> a PostHuman world, but rather which contemporary structure is most  
> conducive to bringing it about.

What if none of the contemporary structures are at all adequate?

>
> I say that if wrapping Transhumanism in the flag (whichever flag)  
> will make it more palatable to the masses, and thus more likely to  
> be adopted as a world-view and common vision, then wrap away! If  
> that means that an America inspired by a Transhumanist vision  
> melded with the American Dream ends up being the most effective way  
> of bringing about the >H future, then so be it. If it means that a  
> China inspired by a Transhumanist vision melded with a fusion of  
> Chinese nationalism and post-Maoist ideology ends up being the most  
> effective way of bringing about the >H future, than so be IT.

And if doing so leads to an arms race that ends up using most of the  
tech for aggression abroad and draconian oppression at home and we  
end up through war destroying ourselves or at least most of the  
necessary infrastructure then that is just too bad.

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 11:20:16 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:20:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <CB516E9D-DC89-47CE-B966-FAC8A4062FF7@mac.com>
References: <20050630001624.57479.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
	<CB516E9D-DC89-47CE-B966-FAC8A4062FF7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A90E6F2E-FF5B-4BC8-98C1-820AF6649CDA@mac.com>


On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:03 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:16 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
>>> military forces
>>> are firing at, bombing and so on?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
>> people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.
>>
>
> You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never kept conflicts  
> free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian targets.  Check  
> out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can guarantee no such  
> thing.

I apologize.  This one got away before being rethought and cleaned  
up.  I shouldn't do mail when half asleep.

- s



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 13:54:01 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:54:01 -0400
Subject: Meta: Too far    Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again
Message-ID: <196520-22005643013541939@M2W038.mail2web.com>

From: Joseph Bloch 

"And yet, we remain pre-PostHumans, and as such are constrained to act 
within our current limitations and psychological and social constraints. 
Our focus must perforce be not to puzzle out what sort of 
politico-socio-economic structure should or will be in place in a 
PostHuman world, but rather which contemporary structure is most 
conducive to bringing it about."

Granted, however we need to look at the social structure today and assess
where the bottle necks are blocking social responsiblity, individual
responsibility, and international/global relations.  When people/humanity
feel confident, we are less likely to engage in battle.  People/humanity
becomes confident by feeling unique within our circles/groups/locales. 
When this occurs and no one is telling ud how to brlieve, there is less of
a threat that we will coerced others to adopt their rules. 

Issues today center around rapid technological change or accelerating
change.  People feel that they are forced to accept biotechnology, for
example.  The reaction is to insist on politics or religon to protect their
own rights/beliefs.  We see this with the Christian right - who are gaining
momentum becuase they feel threatened.

In order to develop unbiased system for all of us to function, we need
develop a "give and take" system of compromise.  In order to do this, our
numbers MUST increase, and sooner rather than later.

Democracy is a good thing, to be sure.  So is vitamin C.  But forcing the
body to take it when it is already out in the sun can have side effects. 
Too much vitamin C can cause "rust" in the body
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2001news/vitaminC.htm as have ill effects on those
who have diabetes, and even cause disease.  

While it might be best not to exceed 500mg a day (although my family
member, the late Linus Pauling would have disagreed), we still need it.

In regards to pushing democracy as equality and fair-play as a mask for
aggressive behavior, I must pause and take a look at what is really going
on and I do not think it is entirely pretty.


"I say that if wrapping Transhumanism in the flag (whichever flag) will 
make it more palatable to the masses, and thus more likely to be adopted 
as a world-view and common vision, then wrap away! If that means that an 
America inspired by a Transhumanist vision melded with the American 
Dream ends up being the most effective way of bringing about the >H 
future, then so be it. If it means that a China inspired by a 
Transhumanist vision melded with a fusion of Chinese nationalism and 
post-Maoist ideology ends up being the most effective way of bringing 
about the >H future, than so be IT."

I do not agree with this because it is compromising transhumanism.  By its
very nature, transhumanism is BIGGER than a flag.

"Nationalism, like anything else, can be a means to an end. In our case, 
that end is a PostHuman existence. We cannot, by definition, say what 
that existence will be like. But we can, with at least a modicum of 
insight, say which contemporary ideologies are most likely to bring 
about the PostHuman era."

Like art, it is the process that gives quality.  I'm in no rush for
posthumanity.

"My money is on the mixed capitalism of the United States, ultimately. 
Others may have different thoughts as to which nation(s) are most likely 
to usher in the >H era. Vive la difference! Let the better strategy win. 
I hope we'll all be friends during, and after, the competition."

My money would be on a collaborative effort - joined intelligence and
creataivity and coopetition rather than competition.  But I'll work with
you on whatever level to proactively bring in the new era!

Cheers!
Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Thu Jun 30 14:32:11 2005
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:32:11 -0400
Subject: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far 
In-Reply-To: <061201c57d36$9198e6b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
References: <20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com><05b001c57d09$979502b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
	<29399372-9101-4E51-A988-9311EC2E0B52@bonfireproductions.com>
	<061201c57d36$9198e6b0$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <65BEA502-8914-407D-BF7C-2592FAC9519F@bonfireproductions.com>


Ah, of course. And not aimed specifically at you, Brett. The list in  
general seems to soften its structure when things speed up. I think  
it is thermodynamics.

Anyway - I merely spoke up because my mail.app uses referencing for  
threads (as many do) and I click on one message and they now all  
illuminate. =( So I thought I would lament to the list.


]3


On Jun 30, 2005, at 1:42 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote:

> Sorry :-)
>
> I can deconstuct that for you by reading from the right and using  
> the Re:s
> as place holders.
>
> I had posted a post headed "Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re:  
> Iraq and legality again".
> The discussion had been about "Iraq and legality" which this list  
> has discussed before, going
> right back to before the invasion of Iraq in fact.
>
> I meta'ed a post that I thought, rightly or not, was not really  
> about "Iraq and legality again"
> but was an attack on two posters.
>
> This Meta'ing, wise or otherwise by me, caused interest, and people  
> joined the
> discussion that before hand had not been in it.
>
> Damien then pruned the subject header to "Re: Meta: Too far "  
> dropping the rest of the
> header but leaving my miss spelling of too.
>
> The list reply process adds "Re: [extropy-chat]" to the front of  
> anything, so we got
> "Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far".
>
> Because I have been following all of the conversation including the  
> diversions I
> can actually make sense of the header and did want to retain  
> something of its
> history because others like me may be able to read it and get  
> meaning from it.
>
> I pit the words "The Oath of Enlistment was" at the front of what  
> to me was
> and still is meaningful.
>
> I don't mind if someone else prunes it, or leaves it, I will be  
> able to find it
> if I want to anyway.
>
> Hope the above clarifies, if clarification, was necessary.
>
> I think it was Einstein that said things should be as simple as  
> possible but
> no simpler.
>
> Brett Paatsch
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bret Kulakovich
> To: ExI chat list
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re:  
> Meta: Too far
>
>
>
>
> Not to mention the horror of these subjects, sub-heads, and  
> organization of the threads thereof.
>
>
> "Re: The Oath of Enlistment was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far "
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
>
> ]3
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote:
>
>
> Sometimes, as I have to do other things as well, I can't keep up  
> with the rate at which threads move along,
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jun 30 14:51:27 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:51:27 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050628010614.01ce5908@pop-server.satx.rr.com><20050628073041.76367.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
	<e88b73ce0506291819165cfec4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201c57d83$320826f0$7db51b97@administxl09yj>

 
Neil Halelamien
> Actually, I could have sworn that boffins were ...

Quite.

Barry Blundell
b.g.blundell at swan.ac.uk
Univ. of Wales, Swansea, UK
writes:

"I am currently carrying out research for a book
about where all the 'boffins' have gone.
These people were ordinary academics who were
extraordinary people. They were vibrant,
individualistic scientists and engineers,
who until very recently could be found on
pratically every university campus in the U.K.
Boffins typically had higly chaotic laboratories,
were equally chaotic in their teaching, but were
by and large totally dedicated to their work.
My plan is to look at the life and work of
10 or 15 individuals who were active between
1940s and the 1980s. Readers who have suggestions
of who to include are invited to contact me."   



From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Jun 30 15:14:06 2005
From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:14:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] zombie boffins
In-Reply-To: <001201c57d83$320826f0$7db51b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <200506301514.j5UFEOR12014@tick.javien.com>

> 
> "I am currently carrying out research for a book
> about where all the 'boffins' have gone...

...young girls have boffed them every one.






From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jun 30 17:11:06 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:11:06 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] cool (was zombie boffins)
References: <200506301514.j5UFEOR12014@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <001501c57d96$b4964300$90b01b97@administxl09yj>

Cool!
But what does it mean? 
I'm supposing it has to do with 
the Aristotle-Mpemba effect. 

"The fact that water has previously been warmed
contributes to its freezing quickly;
for so it cools sooner.  Hence many people,
when they want to cool hot water quickly,
begin by putting it in the sun. . ."
- Aristotle [in E.W.Webster, "Meteorologica I",
            Oxford U.P., Oxford, 1923, 348b-349a]

It was called, by Aristotle, 'antiperistasis'.
"The supposed increase in the intensity of a quality
as a result of being surrounded by its contrary quality,
for instance, the sudden heating of a warm body
when surrounded by cold."

Long time ago a friend told Mpemba (a Tanzanian high
school student) that when making ice cream, he put
the hot liquids in the refrigerator to make them freeze
_faster_.

Mpemba found that other ice cream sellers in Tanga
had the same practice.

This is the Aristotle-Mpemba effect.

Mpemba, Osborne; "Cool"; Physics Education v.4,
                 p.172-5(1969)

(More references available)





From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 17:16:07 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050629235231.4270.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050630171607.25396.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Except that Stuart is ignoring the fact that Noriega
> > declared war on
> > the US five days before the invasion, and killed a
> > US officer. It is
> > hardly 'bullshit'.
> > 
>  Well sorry for the omission but this is the first I
> heard of that. It would not surprise me if something
> like that occured, but rank and file soldiers are
> hardly "in the loop" when it comes to things like
> that. A lot of soldiers being mobilized don't even
> know WHERE they are being sent unless they manage to
> catch a little CNN before they hop on their C-130s to
> do their duty for honor and country.  

I read and heard about it in the news, both the declaration and the
shooting were headline stories.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From astapp at amazeent.com  Thu Jun 30 17:16:56 2005
From: astapp at amazeent.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:16:56 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Reanimation of Humans...
Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE0451636F@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

I fail to see the issue; it seems we are arguing semantics.

Your definition of "a consciousness" is a time continuum of 
positive brain activity. When the activity stops, that 
"consciousness" ceases to exist, and a new one is created when 
activity resumes.

My definition of "a consciousness" is that pattern of activity
which occurs when a particular brain is experiencing positive
activity. I just forget about the continuity.

Both definitions are equally valid. There's no sense arguing
over what the word means because they are two equally valid
interpretations that need to be differentiated. The whole
debate is childish in my opinion. "That's my word!" "No, it's
my word! You can't have it." Let's just share the damn word.

In my ontology, a "consciousness" is the subjective experience
of "mentation" (an active process) over the "mind" (a continuum 
of abstract data) running on a "substrate" (brain or CPU). What
you call "consciousness" I would probably call an "awakening".
A change of mind would be called "learning" if it reduced
entropy and "debilitation" if it increased entropy. A substrate
change would be "uploading". 

Terry W. Colvin wrote:
> I don't know if I've raised this issue here before, but I have grave
> misgivings on this cryro technique being applied on humans.
> 
> I have voiced my concerns elsewhere before, but the issue tends to be
> misunderstood.
> 
> Basically, it all has to do with the nature of our consciousness.
> 
> Let me state it this way -- is a book conscious? An encyclopedia? A
> computer switched off? Or anything else static? I think we can all
> agree without question with a rather emphatic "NO".
> 


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 17:21:50 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050630172150.38555.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Actually, the precedent set at Nuremberg was that one could not  
> > obey _illegal_ orders. "Morality" being such a nebulous and  
> > subjective thing, after all. And indeed, there are examples of even
>  
> > SS soldiers refusing to participate in atrocities and being  
> > reassigned to other duties immediately, lest the courts become  
> > involved and the whole mess become open to public scrutiny. Indeed,
>  
> > it was that very fact that knocked the block out from underneath  
> > the "I would have been arrested and executed if I hadn't done as I 
> 
> > was ordered" because, in fact, many people had refused and were not
>  
> > arrested for doing so.
> >
> > Now, that being said, I think there is a WORLD of difference  
> > between forcing unarmed Communist party officials to dig their own 
> > graves for summary execution in 1943, and US Marines firing at  
> > Iraqi soldiers who are armed with machine guns, tanks, and RPGs (or
> > terrorists armed with machine guns, suicide bomb-vests, and RPGs). 
> > And if any of my European (or any other, for that matter) friends  
> > cannot see that distinction, then I mourn for the loss of any sort 
> > of substantive communication between us.
> 
> Do you believe this in the only type of people our military forces  
> are firing at, bombing and so on?

They are the only type of people that our military forces are
*targeting*. If some civilians are killed because they are being used
as human shields, or because they act like insurgents (such as by
trying to run roadblock checkpoints, pointing tv cameras that look like
RPGs or Strelas, etc), that is a terrible thing, but it is not a crime.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 17:23:26 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:23:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629190859.01cf5328@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20050630172326.73329.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The New York Times is not a reliable news source.

--- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> At 04:28 PM 6/29/2005 -0700, Mike wrote:
> 
> >Noriega declared war on
> >the US five days before the invasion, and killed a US officer. It is
> >hardly 'bullshit'.
> 
> That's amazingly impressive and speedy work! Invade a nation with
> less than 
> 5 days warning.
> 
> There are other versions:
> 
> http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/panamainv.html
> 
> "The US media showed little curiosity about the Dec. 16 confrontation
>      that led to the death of a US Marine officer and the injury of
> another
>      when they tried to run a roadblock in front of the PDF
> headquarters.
>      The officers were supposedly "lost."  In view of what is now
> known
>      about the intense pre-invasion preparations then underway ("NY
> Times,"
>      12/24/89), is it possible the Marines were actually trying to
> track
>      Noriega's whereabouts?
>        The Panamanian version of the event was that the US soldiers,
> upon
>      being discovered, opened fire--injuring three civilians,
> including a
>      child--and then tried to run the roadblock.  This version was
> largely
>      ignored by US journalists even after the shooting two days later
> of a
>      Panamanian corporal who "signaled a US serviceman to stop,"
> according
>      to the administration.  "The US serviceman felt threatened," the
>      administration claimed, after admitting that its earlier story
> that
>      the Panamanian had pulled his gun was false ("NYT," 12/19/89)"
> 
> Damien Broderick 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 17:29:23 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050630002159.74062.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050630172923.49001.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > That's amazingly impressive and speedy work! Invade
> > a nation with less than 
> > 5 days warning.
> > 
> Actually there are divisions of the U.S. military like
> 82nd airborne and, in my case, the now defunct 7th
> light infantry division that have rotating rosters of
> high alert readiness at all times. Thus at any time
> the U.S. can have troops deployed and on the ground
> anywhere in the world in less than 48 hours. Which is
> also why many soldiers don't even know where they are
> going, because they barely have time to pack.   

And, moreover, the US bases in Panama, at the time, were the HQ of the
US Central Command, which is tasked with control over all rapid
deployment forces. The US had few ground units to move in country that
were not already there (the 82nd Airborne was one, I believe that moved
in). US sourced forces were primarily airpower related, particularly
the stealth fighters and the F-111Ds from my own unit at Cannon AFB,
NM.

We didn't have to 'invade', we were already there. All the hard
logistical work that takes so much time prior to an invasion had been
done decades before.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 17:44:41 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far [Operation Just Cause: Panama]
In-Reply-To: <20050630005705.19507.qmail@web60522.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050630174441.33006.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > The Panama Canal is less vital than in past decades
> > but still important 
> > to world
> > trade.  The anarchists and do-nothing idealists
> > would have us do nothing.
> > What maroons!
> > 
>  I agree that it was very strategically important for
> us to maintain control of the Canal Zone despite
> having promised to return it to Panama in 1990. 

Actually, it was returned in 1999, though the process began in 1990.
This return was the result of Carters 1977 treaty with Torrijos. The
original 1903 treaty I believe was a 999 year term.

> But
> why couldn't the Bush (yeah it was a Bush then
> too)administration have just come out and said, "We
> need the Panama Canal and Noriega can't be trusted to
> control it?" Instead of "Noriega caters to drug
> traffickers through his country." The lie just makes
> me feel dirty for doing the right thing.

Well look at what has happened since then: Chinese companies now
control both ends of the canal, and China is using it to ship tanks,
Migs, artillery, and small arms weaponry to Venezuela in quantities ten
times larger than is needed by Venezuelas army.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 18:06:58 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:06:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <20050630062246.84278.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050630180658.60300.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew at ceruleansystems.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > For a normal commercial jet, you need something on
> > the order of the big
> > naval surface-to-air missiles to have a prayer of
> > stopping it where it
> > stands.  Whatever makes people feel protected I
> > guess...
> > 
> 
> A bigger missile is the wrong solution anyways. The
> best solution is not let the jet get hijacked in the
> first place. Since a high percentage of commercial
> pilots are ex-military any way, they should just
> require commercial airline pilots be in the reserves
> or national guard to stay in shape and issue them
> weapons permits. 

Here we call them licenses, not permits, and those are only for
concealed carry. Open carry requires no license in NH, though not in
some other states. This is the problem, is that many of the states with
the biggest airport hubs have the most heinous gun control laws (that
don't work). The patchwork quilt of carry permits/licensing across the
country places  crew and passengers in jeopardy depending on where they
land or layover.

> Who needs skymarshalls or
> anti-aircraft artillery when one of the pilots is a
> veteran reservist with a .45? How much does a
> reservist get paid for his weekend a month and two
> weeks a year? How much is a .45? You could arm every
> pilot in every airline for less than a dozen missiles.

There was a bill to allow all current and retired cops to fly armed,
but that was shot down by the anti-gun crowd. Everybody is ignoring the
fact that there was never a hijacking in the US until the FAA banned
passengers flying armed. The only requirements we should have is that
the airlines issue frangible ammo with their bags of peanuts.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 18:36:59 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DESIGN:  WTC New Architecture
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0506301155550.11244@zeus>
Message-ID: <20050630183700.34534.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> >
> >A bigger missile is the wrong solution anyways. The
> >best solution is not let the jet get hijacked in the
> >first place.
> 
> Speaking of which, have significant hijacking happened since 9/11? 

Nov 17, 2002, an El Al flight from Tel Aviv to Istanbul was hijacked by
an individual with a pen knife. He was quickly subdued and taken into
custody on landing in Turkey. How a passenger got a pen-knife past
El-Al's notorious mandatory full cavity searches and baggage matching
protocols was certainly a major embarrassment for somebody.

March 23, 2003 Turkish Airlines flight out of Istanbul was hijacked.
(Maybe by the guy who did the El Al flight and was trying to get
home??? ;) )

And don't forget the infamous Richard Reid shoe bombing incident, which
was also post 9-11. One is still trying to find out if Reid was a Monty
Python fan...

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 18:44:27 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <CB516E9D-DC89-47CE-B966-FAC8A4062FF7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050630184427.96092.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:16 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
> > --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
> >> military forces
> >> are firing at, bombing and so on?
> >>
> >>
> > I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
> > people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.
> 
> You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never kept conflicts  
> free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian targets.  Check  
> out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can guarantee no such  
> thing.

Do you know anything besides what you read in left wing propaganda? Do
you have any personal experience from which to make such declaratory
statements?

There are idiots and fools who ignore their training and commit war
crimes. They are fallible human beings. The US is one of the few
countries with a long record of prosecuting its own people for war
crimes, not just the enemy. The only thing that Saddam punished his own
people for was for NOT committing war crimes.

I know what I know from personal experience, from extensive training in
the laws of war and the UCMJ and its daily application to the troops by
the chain of command. I also know from a lifelong study of military
history.

What makes YOU so certain?

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 18:54:24 2005
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] cool (was zombie boffins)
In-Reply-To: <001501c57d96$b4964300$90b01b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <20050630185424.64359.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is an interesting effect, and something like the practice of using
lasers to cool matter to near 0 K levels to make BE condensates.

However, by putting hot liquid in a freezer, the hotter vapor rising
off the liquid hits the freezer thermostat, indicating a much higher
temperature inside the freezer than actually exists. It reacts by
sending a higher voltage to the SCR controlling the refrigerant
compressor, and so the freezer goes into a higher operating mode, thus
its coils cool to a colder temperature, and this causes temps inside
the freezer to plummet quicker than if you'd put cool liquid in the
freezer. Because the coldest air settles at the bottom of the freezer,
it is separated from the layer of hot air at the top of the freezer
that is sending the heat signal to the thermostat. The compressor
doesn't back off until this top layer itself cools down, which will
happen last.

--- scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:

> Cool!
> But what does it mean? 
> I'm supposing it has to do with 
> the Aristotle-Mpemba effect. 
> 
> "The fact that water has previously been warmed
> contributes to its freezing quickly;
> for so it cools sooner.  Hence many people,
> when they want to cool hot water quickly,
> begin by putting it in the sun. . ."
> - Aristotle [in E.W.Webster, "Meteorologica I",
>             Oxford U.P., Oxford, 1923, 348b-349a]
> 
> It was called, by Aristotle, 'antiperistasis'.
> "The supposed increase in the intensity of a quality
> as a result of being surrounded by its contrary quality,
> for instance, the sudden heating of a warm body
> when surrounded by cold."
> 
> Long time ago a friend told Mpemba (a Tanzanian high
> school student) that when making ice cream, he put
> the hot liquids in the refrigerator to make them freeze
> _faster_.
> 
> Mpemba found that other ice cream sellers in Tanga
> had the same practice.
> 
> This is the Aristotle-Mpemba effect.
> 
> Mpemba, Osborne; "Cool"; Physics Education v.4,
>                  p.172-5(1969)
> 
> (More references available)
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
____________________________________________________ 
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 19:15:51 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:15:51 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050630184427.96092.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630184427.96092.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <67A7B7B8-D482-4877-82CC-235BB413AF5F@mac.com>


On Jun 30, 2005, at 11:44 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 29, 2005, at 5:16 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>>
>>> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
>>>> military forces
>>>> are firing at, bombing and so on?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
>>> people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.
>>>
>>
>> You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never kept conflicts
>> free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian targets.  Check
>> out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can guarantee no such
>> thing.
>>
>
> Do you know anything besides what you read in left wing propaganda? Do
> you have any personal experience from which to make such declaratory
> statements?

I know what I read in multiple news sources about what is happening,  
from talking to some people who were there and from my own analysis  
of sources.    Very simple analysis says no one can guarantee any  
such thing as the guarantee above.

- samantha
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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 19:19:37 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:19:37 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanofoods
Message-ID: <117310-220056430191937348@M2W040.mail2web.com>


From: Seena Sharp 

NANOFOOD ON THE HORIZON
       Researchers at the Netherlands' Wageningen University are working on
food processing techniques that incorporate nanotechnology in a new field
dubbed nanofood. A major part of the task, of course, is selling it to the
public, says Frans Kampers, program manager of bio-nanotechnology at
Wageningen. "Consumer acceptance and how they view nanotechnology in food
really needs attention. We do not want to end up in the GMO (genetically
modified organisms) situation. We have to be honest and truthful so that
the consumer can balance the risks and the benefits of nanofoods." Kampers
envisions using nanotechnology in two ways during the food production
process -- on the processing line, where tiny sensors and diagnostic
machines could detect harmful microbes and establish a more accurate
shelflife for products, and as a means of creating food that can carry
medicines and nutritional supplements via tiny edible capsules, or
nanoparticles, to targeted spots in the body. And while the first
application likely won't run into too much trouble, Kampers worries about
consumer backlash against tinkering with the food supply. The nanoparticles
that would be added to food include both "soft particles" -- those using
common biological materials -- and "hard particles" made up of non-organic
substances, such as silicon or ceramics, or materials that react with the
body's heat or chemistry, such as polymers. And while the idea is still
percolating in the lab, Kampers hopes to raise awareness of the
possibilities among corporate food giants such as General Mills and Nestle.
"The food industry is on average reluctant to adopt new technologies. We
would like to show them what the possibilities are and what academia is
working on and see if this triggers something. We would like to communicate
that we are ready to help them." (Food Production Daily 17 Jun 2005)
<http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?id=60733>


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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun 30 19:59:29 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanofoods
In-Reply-To: <117310-220056430191937348@M2W040.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20050630195929.99848.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> <http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?id=60733>

...now *that* is an unfortunate choice of names, given the climate.
People are going to be attacking it based on the name alone.


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Jun 30 20:13:12 2005
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:13:12 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanofoods
Message-ID: <10710-220056430201312153@M2W103.mail2web.com>

From: Adrian Tymes 

--- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" <nvitamore at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> <http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?id=60733>

"...now *that* is an unfortunate choice of names, given the climate.
People are going to be attacking it based on the name alone."

The marketing team could have displayed more due diligence on social
sentiment re nanotechnology.  Unless there is a very cute cartoon for the
children and a little toy nanofoodie, I'm afraid this might be a pass.

Natasha

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From scerir at libero.it  Thu Jun 30 20:17:01 2005
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:17:01 +0200
Subject: [extropy-chat] cool (was zombie boffins)
References: <20050630185424.64359.qmail@web30711.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c57db0$ad62da20$a3bf1b97@administxl09yj>

Mike 
> This is an interesting effect, 
> and something like the practice of using
> lasers to cool matter to near 0 K levels 
> to make BE condensates.

It is cool, yes. My friend Italo gave me
this link. I must read it, tomorrow
http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/%7Edkoks/Faq/General/hot_water.html




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 21:25:12 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:25:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <CB516E9D-DC89-47CE-B966-FAC8A4062FF7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20050630212512.86581.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never
> kept conflicts  
> free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian
> targets.  Check  
> out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can
> guarantee no such  
> thing.
> 

Look Samantha,

It is obvious that you have made up your mind and
chosen your side in this debate. It is clear now that
no logic or rationale will shake your irrational
hatred of this country and the men in uniform that
keep you safe. So I will stop trying. That you hold so
much contempt for the country that explicitly gives
you the right to voice your contempt would be ironic
if it wasn't so sad. Might I suggest you might be
happier living elsewhere? Despite your love for the
insurgent cause I would not suggest it be Iraq. But
maybe someplace in Western Europe might suit you.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jun 30 23:05:22 2005
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:05:22 +1000
Subject: Rules of Engagement was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
References: <20050630001624.57479.qmail@web60525.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <06da01c57dc8$31576730$6e2a2dcb@homepc>

The Avantguardian wrote:

> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> Do you believe this in the only type of people our
>> military forces are firing at, bombing and so on?
>> 
> I can guarantee you that those are the only type of
> people our military is purposely firing at or bombing.

I understand chain of command, I understand, I think,
the concept of rules of engagement,  I'd be inclined
to agree that in the overwhelming majority the men
and women in the US armed services would try to 
conduct themselves appropriately even under stress,
and I get that the military is a collective term, an
aggregation, that averages out the actions of individuals
so I get that there is a sense in which one could generalise
and say our military. 

But how can *you* guarantee it Stuart? What does 
your *guarantee* mean in this context?

Is it a legal term? Are you promising Samantha or others
that if the military fires at, or bombs  people that you 
personally will make good on any loss?

> In any conflict involving U.S. troops, rules of
> engagement are very clearly spelled out, flash cards
> summarizing them are issued, and violations are taken
> very seriously.

In any? ;-)  That is truly a magnificent accomplishment.
Perhaps the military should be running all aspects of 
government and management then, if they have reached
such sophistication in anticipation and education.

> These rules explicitly spell out
> exactly when and how a soldier is allowed to fire or
> return fire on an enemy. Typically such rules are
> mission specific. I do not know the specific ROE in
> Iraq right now but in Panama they were something like:
> Do not fire unless fired upon. Make sure you can
> clearly identify and see the target before firing.
> Fire only single shots or controlled bursts and do not
> spray fire at hidden targets. These rules are clearly
> designed to minimize civillian casualties. Especially
> since the PDF (Panamanian Defense Force) was known to
> drag women and children out into the jungle with them
> during ambushes. All in the hopes that we would
> accidently shoot one of them and make ourselves look
> bad.    

Perhaps the US Constitition and the UN Charter should
be relabelled and called the US Rules of Engagement
and the UN Rules of Engagement.  ;-)

Brett Paatsch




From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Jun 30 23:07:58 2005
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:07:58 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050630212512.86581.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630212512.86581.qmail@web60516.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43267A1E-F5C0-41FD-9F4C-851AE36905AD@mac.com>


On Jun 30, 2005, at 2:25 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>> You are a fool.  The rules of engagement have never
>> kept conflicts
>> free of bobing asd shooting civilians and civilian
>> targets.  Check
>> out the stories from Fallujah for one.   You can
>> guarantee no such
>> thing.
>>
>>
>
> Look Samantha,
>
> It is obvious that you have made up your mind and
> chosen your side in this debate. It is clear now that
> no logic or rationale will shake your irrational
> hatred of this country and the men in uniform that
> keep you safe.

I have no such hatred.  I am no longer sorry I called you a fool.   
You have now earned it if you take my legitimate concerns to be  
irrational hatred.


Welcome to my kill file fool.

- samantha




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Jun 30 23:13:06 2005
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:13:06 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Can a single brain cell recognize Bill Clinton?
Message-ID: <42C47C82.4050809@mindspring.com>

Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss

< http://www.science-frontiers.com >

SCIENCE FRONTIERS, No. 160, Jul-Aug 2005, p.  2


BIOLOGY

Can a single brain cell recognize Bill Clinton?

With this politically charged title, J. Horgan begins to cast doubt upon the
pixel theory of the brain's image processing.  A pixel is a single 
visual dot
in the array of dots that create the picture you see on the screen of a
digital camera.  The digital representation of a pixel includes color and
intensity.  A digital camera arranges millions of pixels in an array that
passes for a picture of, say, Bill Clinton!

Most neuroscientists adhere to the "pixel" theory of brain visualization;
that is, individual brain cells, the neurons, are capable of processing 
*only
one* pixel each from among the millions in an image flashed to the brain by
the optical system.  In other words a single neuron is generally thought to
be incapable of pattern recognition---dots and that's all!

   But Itzhak Fried, the neurosurgeon who implanted the electrodes
   in Danny's brain [Danny is a 21-year-old college student] and who
   leads this UCLA research program, believes he has found
   "thinking cells" in the brains of subjects like Danny.  If he's
   right, neuroscientists may be forced to overhaul their view
   of how the human brain works.

The thought that a single brain cell can process many pixels in the data 
stream
transmitted from eyes began with research with animals.

In the 1970s, experiments with monkeys by C. Gross at Princeton found that
single brain cells did indeed respond selectively to various hands and 
faces---
but not *specific* faces.  In other words, *any* face would elicit an
electrical signal from a so-called "face cell."

Experiments then moved logically to electrodes implanted in human brains.
There, single cells were located that responded to images of *specific* life
forms---eagles, rabbits, etc.---but only one species per "thinking cell".
These cells were mute when pictures of different animals were shown to
the subjects.

Next, it was discovered that some cells could distinguish between smiling
and scowling faces.  Finally, a "Bill Clinton" cell was located in a 
subject's
brain.  This cell responded only when the subject was shown virtually any
picture of Bill Clinton, regardless of his mood or physical appearance.
For good reason, these advanced pattern-recognition cells were called
Bill Clinton cells.

The use of mirrors proved that *narcissism* cells are also present in the
human brain!

(Horgan, John; "Can a Single Brain Cell Recognize Bill Clinton?" *Discover*,
26:64, June 2005)

Questions

(1) How can single, ostensibly rather simple, neurons process the flood 
of bits
arriving from subject's optical system?

(2) Can Darwinian evolution account for single-cell pattern recognition?  Of
course it can; it *must*!

(3) Has the data stream from the subject's optical system been preprocessed
by the optical system itself, leaving little for the neurons to do?

(4) Are the Bill Clinton cells only the output terminals of holographic
(whole-brain) image processing.


SCIENCE FRONTIERS is a bimonthly collection of scientific anomalies in
the current literature.  Published by the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107,
Glen Arm, MD 21057 USA.  Annual subscription: $8.00.


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
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   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia
veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]



From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 23:40:04 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:40:04 -0400
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <8F15420C-8E0E-4FFF-9821-903659746444@mac.com>
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050629104805.01e124c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<20050629213933.73636.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com>	<6.2.1.2.0.20050629173500.01ccf120@pop-server.satx.rr.com>	<42C327FF.3010609@humanenhancement.com>	<F0E24CCB-6BAA-41EF-A423-F44B4D4DD2A1@mac.com>	<42C33F4F.9010307@humanenhancement.com>
	<8F15420C-8E0E-4FFF-9821-903659746444@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42C482D4.1010607@humanenhancement.com>

Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
>> Intentionally? Absolutely. Are there going to be unavoidable  
>> collateral casualties? Equally absolutely. Especially in a  situation 
>> where parsing the enemy from the friendlies from the  neutrals is ten 
>> times harder because the enemy deliberately tries  to disguise itself 
>> as the latter (in contravention of the Geneva  Convention which gets 
>> tossed about so glibly by the anti-American  folks, I might add).
>
>
> I have nothing to say in the face of this level of denial.


So it's your contention that the Al Quaeda and other terrorists in Iraq 
are all wearing standardized uniforms, and are taking pains to 
distinguish themselves from the innocent civilian population? That they 
are not, in fact, doing everything they can to blend into the local 
population to escape detection and maximize the damage they can wreak on 
civilians and Coalition forces?

You're the one who's in denial.

Nothing left to say here, I think. Let's move on to happier and more 
productive topics.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 30 23:41:06 2005
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rules of Engagement was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <06da01c57dc8$31576730$6e2a2dcb@homepc>
Message-ID: <20050630234106.41912.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>



--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> But how can *you* guarantee it Stuart? What does 
> your *guarantee* mean in this context?
> 
> Is it a legal term? Are you promising Samantha or
> others
> that if the military fires at, or bombs  people that
> you 
> personally will make good on any loss?

Sheesh. Too many attorneys on the list. ;) Actually I
may have overstated myself. To rephrase more
accurately, I am certain, to my own satisfaction mind
you, that the U.S. military mandates and takes great
pains these days to make sure that innocent civilians
are not harmed by their soldiers during armed
conflict. The civillian casualties that do occur are
almost all accidents. Those very few soldiers that
purposefully disregard this are brought to justice by
their peers and their chain of command. And to a
certain extent, yes, I do personally feel remorse at
the death of civillians even when I am not the one
pulling the trigger.  

> > In any conflict involving U.S. troops, rules of
> > engagement are very clearly spelled out, flash
> cards
> > summarizing them are issued, and violations are
> taken
> > very seriously.
> 
> In any? ;-)  That is truly a magnificent
> accomplishment.
> Perhaps the military should be running all aspects
> of 
> government and management then, if they have reached
> such sophistication in anticipation and education.

ummmm.... NO. Although there does seem to be a rise in
armed conflicts in American schools these days, using
the military to solve this would be like using a
sledge hammer to fix a toothache.



> Perhaps the US Constitition and the UN Charter
> should
> be relabelled and called the US Rules of Engagement
> and the UN Rules of Engagement.  ;-)

heh. I personally don't think that there will be a one
world goverment unless or until it can be demonstrated
that potentially hostile intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe. There just isn't enough
evolutionary pressure to select for it. But if it
should ever, for whatever reason, come about, I hope
whatever charter or constitution the United Nations of
Earth adopts would be based in large part upon the
U.S. Constitution. Even if the barbarians have sacked
our cities by then. 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Make Yahoo! your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jun 30 23:50:53 2005
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Can a single brain cell recognize Bill Clinton?
In-Reply-To: <42C47C82.4050809@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20050630235053.65171.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> (1) How can single, ostensibly rather simple, neurons process the
> flood 
> of bits
> arriving from subject's optical system?

As you noted, it might simply be the end cell for a bunch of other
processing.  It could, say, filter the values from other cells that
recognized eye spacing, other cells that recognized lip thickness, and
so on for other characteristics - many of which are used by the better
computer facial recognition algorithms today.

Unless all or most visual neurons link directly to these cells (which
would be easy to notice and remarkable in itself, given the unusually
high number of input synapses they would possess), something like this
would have to be the case.  True, one can imagine data from multiple
visual neurons being encoded into single-neuron inputs - but any method
that did this while preserving the information might not be
distinguishable from the encoding doing the preprocessing.  Every
neuron is a computational element of some sort, and there's a limit to
how far a single neuron can transmit its data.  Thus, information can
not get from one part of the brain to a relatively distant part without
potentially going through quite a lot of processing.

> (2) Can Darwinian evolution account for single-cell pattern
> recognition?  Of
> course it can; it *must*!

Kin recognition, mate recognition...there are quite a few social
functions that evolution would easily capitalize on, and homo sapiens
is definitely a social animal.

Which is not to say that Darwinian evolution accounts for all things,
at least not in the strongest positive sense.  It is arguable whether
evolution "accounts" for vestigial things like a human's appendix, even
if it can explain how such things came to be.


From jbloch at humanenhancement.com  Thu Jun 30 23:55:49 2005
From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:55:49 -0400
Subject: Rules of Engagement was Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Meta: Too far
In-Reply-To: <20050630234106.41912.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050630234106.41912.qmail@web60521.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <42C48685.9060208@humanenhancement.com>

When conversations have risen to such a level of absurdity (and I speak 
here of Brett's questions, not Stuart's answers) then perhaps the time 
has come to move on to more productive conversations.

Joseph

Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": 
http://www.humanenhancement.com
New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta
PostHumanity Rising: http://transhumanist.blogspot.com/ (updated 6/14/05)

The Avantguardian wrote:

>--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>But how can *you* guarantee it Stuart? What does 
>>your *guarantee* mean in this context?
>>
>>Is it a legal term? Are you promising Samantha or
>>others
>>that if the military fires at, or bombs  people that
>>you 
>>personally will make good on any loss?
>>    
>>
>
>Sheesh. Too many attorneys on the list. ;) Actually I
>may have overstated myself. To rephrase more
>accurately, I am certain, to my own satisfaction mind
>you, that the U.S. military mandates and takes great
>pains these days to make sure that innocent civilians
>are not harmed by their soldiers during armed
>conflict. The civillian casualties that do occur are
>almost all accidents. Those very few soldiers that
>purposefully disregard this are brought to justice by
>their peers and their chain of command. And to a
>certain extent, yes, I do personally feel remorse at
>the death of civillians even when I am not the one
>pulling the trigger.  
>
>  
>
>>>In any conflict involving U.S. troops, rules of
>>>engagement are very clearly spelled out, flash
>>>      
>>>
>>cards
>>    
>>
>>>summarizing them are issued, and violations are
>>>      
>>>
>>taken
>>    
>>
>>>very seriously.
>>>      
>>>
>>In any? ;-)  That is truly a magnificent
>>accomplishment.
>>Perhaps the military should be running all aspects
>>of 
>>government and management then, if they have reached
>>such sophistication in anticipation and education.
>>    
>>
>
>ummmm.... NO. Although there does seem to be a rise in
>armed conflicts in American schools these days, using
>the military to solve this would be like using a
>sledge hammer to fix a toothache.
>
>
>
>  
>
>>Perhaps the US Constitition and the UN Charter
>>should
>>be relabelled and called the US Rules of Engagement
>>and the UN Rules of Engagement.  ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>heh. I personally don't think that there will be a one
>world goverment unless or until it can be demonstrated
>that potentially hostile intelligent life exists
>elsewhere in the universe. There just isn't enough
>evolutionary pressure to select for it. But if it
>should ever, for whatever reason, come about, I hope
>whatever charter or constitution the United Nations of
>Earth adopts would be based in large part upon the
>U.S. Constitution. Even if the barbarians have sacked
>our cities by then. 
>
>The Avantguardian 
>is 
>Stuart LaForge
>alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu
>
>"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
>-Bill Watterson
>
>
>		
>__________________________________ 
>Do you Yahoo!? 
>Make Yahoo! your home page 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>