From jay.dugger at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 00:17:35 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:17:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] LINK: 6th Alcor Conference on Eventful and Upcoming Message-ID: <5366105b0607311717gd3d0102l1549c145923caee0@mail.gmail.com> Monday, 31 July 2006 Hello all: The 2006 Alcor conference comes in October. I just learned about it today, and I took the liberty of adding to both Eventful (http://eventful.com/events/E0-001-001214351-0) and to Upcoming.org (http://upcoming.org/event/95307/). You can visit these sites and pick up feeds about these social calendar entries, and you can also import them into a variety of calendars, both on-line and local. These two tools also export to other non-calendar tools, such as http://del.icio.us/events. I haven't decided to go or not, but I hope those of you who do have a good time. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From atomictiki at yahoo.com Tue Aug 1 03:06:29 2006 From: atomictiki at yahoo.com (P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] LA Times Book Review - 3 books on evolution Message-ID: <20060801030629.62973.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.calendarlive.com/books/bookreview/cl-bk-hotz30jul30,0,3271158.htmlstory?coll=cl-books-top-right SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW Laws of nature A century and a half ago, Charles Darwin sparked a scientific revolution. Now that revolution has become a culture war. But does the concept of ?intelligent design? have validity as an alternative to evolution? Three new books look beyond the rhetoric.By Robert Lee Hotz July 30, 2006 The Reluctant Mr. Darwin An Intimate Portrait of Charles Darwin and the Making of His Theory of Evolution David Quammen Atlas Books/W.W. Norton: 304 pp., $22.95 Intelligent Thought Science Versus the Intelligent Design Movement Edited by John Brockman Vintage: 258 pp., $14 paper Why Darwin Matters The Case Against Intelligent Design Michael Shermer Times Books/Henry Holt: 202 pp., $22 In the border war between science and faith, the doctrine of "intelligent design" is a sly subterfuge ? a marzipan confection of an idea presented in the shape of something more substantial. As many now understand ? and as a federal court ruled in December ? intelligent design is the bait on the barbed hook of creationist belief, intended to sidestep legal restrictions on the teaching of religion in public-school science classes. The problem is not its underlying theology ? a matter properly left to individual religious belief ? but its disingenuous masquerade as a form of legitimate scientific inquiry. Proponents of intelligent design argue that the diversity of life can be explained best by a guiding intelligence ? be it a supreme deity or a space alien ? not the undirected action of evolution and natural selection. By the tenets of intelligent design, life in the universe is simply too complex to have happened by accident. Supporters argue that theirs is a scientific theory that can be tested through experiments, like other scientific ideas. The systematic campaign to make intelligent design part of school curriculums as a scientific alternative to the teaching of evolution has triggered dozens of legal and legislative disputes in 31 states, including California. Until recently, however, those scientists most qualified to defend evolutionary biology were strangely reluctant to confront these dissenters publicly. Now, in three quite different books ? a collection of essays, a biography of Charles Darwin's intellectual life and a debunker's guide to the debate ? some of the nation's most distinguished thinkers step forward as expert witnesses to challenge the ruse of intelligent design directly. Taken together, these works are essential reading for anyone who sincerely wants to "teach the controversy" as intelligent design advocates so often urge ? or to understand its dishonesty. As distillations of the best thinking on this ploy, they ought to be required reading for every high school science teacher and school board member in America. In exploring the shortcomings of intelligent design, these writers also highlight a broader struggle over the evidence of existence that is as old as science and revealed religion. Simply put, Darwin documented the transformational power of sex and death. The struggle to survive and reproduce is the natural engine of variation, he determined. In any species, more are often born than can survive. Even a slight hereditary advantage may favor one over the other. Those who survive will pass their competitive edge on to their offspring. In this way, limbs could become wings and, in 3 billion or 4 billion years, microbes could evolve into men. Modern evolutionary biology emphasizes the underlying unity of life, as amply documented in the genetic code shared by all organisms, which genome mapper and evangelical Christian Francis Collins has called "the language in which God created life." For those seeking faith-based alternatives to Darwin, however, evolutionary theory commits an unforgivable affront, these authors write. It unseats humanity as master of a divine creation. With its emphasis on the mechanism of natural selection, it puts people on equal biological footing with barnacles and baboons. "[L]et's be clear: This is not evolution versus God," writes David Quammen in "The Reluctant Mr. Darwin: An Intimate Portrait of Charles Darwin and the Making of His Theory of Evolution." "The existence of God ? any sort of god, personal or abstract, immanent or distant ? is not what Darwin's evolutionary theory challenges. What it challenges is the supposed godliness of Man ? the conviction that we above all other life forms are spiritually elevated, divinely favored, possessed of an immaterial and immortal essence, such that we have special prospects for eternity, special status in the expectations of God, special rights and responsibilities on Earth." Quammen does not flinch from "the horrible challenge" implied by Darwin's idea: "In plain language, a soul or no soul? An afterlife or not? Are humans spiritually immortal in a way that chickens or cows are not, or just another form of temporarily animated meat?" Many religious groups have accommodated the insights of evolution as an explanation of the natural world no different than findings from astronomy, medicine or meteorology, without losing faith in a divine will ? reinterpreting religious texts in line with modern scientific findings. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics and mainstream Protestants all have their own nuanced theological responses to evolutionary theory. By some measures, half of all Americans still reject the theory of evolution. Some simply don't know the difference between an opinion, a belief, a hypothesis and a formal scientific theory. But for others, the theory of evolution prompts a genuine crisis of faith. Seventy percent of evangelical Christians believe that living things have always existed in their current form, compared with 32% of mainline Protestants and 31% of Catholics, according to the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. Intelligent design is a uniquely American phenomenon, but only one of at least eight variations of the creationist idea, explains Michael Shermer in "Why Darwin Matters: The Case Against Intelligent Design." Fundamentalist proponents of intelligent design, however, make no broad claim for classroom equality on behalf of all religions because, they insist to the general public, theirs is not a faith-based initiative but "a scientific dissent from Darwinism." But as evolutionary biologist Jerry A. Coyne at the University of Chicago notes, one of intelligent design's leading proponents, William A. Dembski, undermines that objective stance: "[A]ny view of the sciences that leaves Christ out of the picture must be seen as fundamentally deficient." He quotes from Dembski's book "Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology." Indeed, the effort to inject intelligent design into science classrooms is an attempt to narrow the common ground of a secular society, writes science publishing impresario John Brockman, who commissioned a collection of essays called "Intelligent Thought: Science Versus the Intelligent Design Movement." "[R]eligious fundamentalism is on the rise around the world, and our own virulent domestic version of it, under the rubric of 'intelligent design,' by elbowing its way into the classroom abrogates the divide between church and state that has served this country so well for so long." In "Intelligent Thought," Brockman persuaded 16 distinguished scientists to address the controversy from the pulpit of their technical expertise. The assembled are knowledgeable, humane and deeply passionate about science as a way of knowing the world around us. The result is a teaching moment that encompasses all the ages of the Earth. Evolutionary biologist Neil H. Shubin of the University of Chicago writes of the way living things emerged from the seas and describes the recently discovered fossil specimen of that first terrestrial explorer. Paleontologist Tim D. White of UC Berkeley lays out the forensic evidence of pre-human descent. Nicholas Humphrey, a professor at the Center for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science at the London School of Economics, muses on how natural selection might have produced human consciousness. Harvard University cognitive neuroscientist Steven Pinker holds forth on the evolution of ethics. Harvard evolutionary psychologist Marc D. Hauser discusses the proper role of evolution in the science curriculum. Several essayists worry that the passions stirred by the intelligent design debate go well beyond the natural tension between science and religion. They suspect that baser political motives are at work in a strategy crafted to discredit science itself as an independent auditor of political claims about global warming, stem-cell research, pollution and high-tech military systems. "Whether or not evolution is compatible with faith, science and religion represent two extremely different worldviews, which, if they coexist at all, do so most uncomfortably," writes Stanford University physicist Leonard Susskind in "Intelligent Thought." "Today, in the United States, science and religion are in an angrier struggle than at any time within living memory. In itself, an intellectual battle of ideas is not at all a bad thing. But what I and many other people find deeply disturbing are the mechanisms that drive the conflict. It seems that both sides are pawns in a bigger game, a game of politics and power." Tufts University philosopher Daniel C. Dennett, however, has no patience with conspiracy theory. The intelligent design movement is simply a "hoax," he writes. Although its proponents claim that theirs is a scientific endeavor, they so far have produced "no experiments with results that challenge any mainstream biological understanding; no observations from the fossil record or genomics or biogeography or comparative anatomy that undermine standard evolutionary thinking." What they offer instead is a glib debater's ploy: "First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work, provoking an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence there is a 'controversy' to teach," Dennett writes. "You can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point amid all the difficult details." None writes so fiercely in defense of evolution as Shermer, a Scientific American columnist and founder and director of the Skeptics Society. With the sustained indignation of a former creationist, Shermer is savage about the shortcomings of intelligent design and eloquent about the spirituality of science. In "Why Darwin Matters," he has assembled an invaluable primer for anyone caught up in an argument with a well-intentioned intelligent design advocate. "Christians should embrace modern science for what it has done to reveal the magnificence of the divinity in a depth and detail unmatched by ancient texts," Shermer writes. "In contrast, Intelligent Design creationism reduces God to an artificer, a mere watchmaker piecing together life out of available parts in a cosmic warehouse." Surely, the most persuasive case for evolution arises from the example of Darwin's own struggle with the implications of the undirected but efficient process of life he had uncovered ? for Darwin himself began as a proponent of intelligent design. Award-winning science writer Quammen brilliantly and powerfully re-creates the 19th century naturalist's intellectual and spiritual journey in "The Reluctant Mr. Darwin," which was conceived as a popular companion to more scholarly volumes on Darwin's life. As Quammen so ably documents, Darwin clearly understood the challenge that natural selection posed to the conventional Victorian Christian faith that sustained his friends and family. No one was more reluctant to espouse it publicly or more distressed by its implications. Indeed, it steadily undermined his own belief in God, drove a wedge in his marriage and nearly broke his health. He brooded privately over his findings for 21 years before making them public. Yet he finally embraced his brainchild, impelled by an unflinching intellectual honesty, the weight of the evidence and the imperative of an undeniable idea. "There seems to be no more design in the variability of organic beings and in the action of natural selection," Darwin wrote, "than in the course which the wind blows." Robert Lee Hotz is a Times staff writer who covers science. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 08:55:51 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:55:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now Message-ID: E-mail losing ground to IM, text messaging Young people driving switch to instant gratification communication By Martha Irvine Updated: 5:32 p.m. ET July 18, 2006 E-mail is so last millennium. Young people see it as a good way to reach an elder ? a parent, teacher or a boss ? or to receive an attached file. But increasingly, the former darling of high-tech communication is losing favor to instant and text messaging, and to the chatter generated on blogs and social networking sites such as Facebook and MySpace. The shift is starting to creep into workplace communication, too. Much like home postal boxes have become receptacles for junk mail, bills and the occasional greeting card, electronic mailboxes have become cluttered with spam. That makes them a pain to weed through, and the problem is only expected to worsen as some e-mail providers allow online marketers to bypass spam filters for a fee. Beyond that, e-mail has become most associated with school and work. "It used to be just fun," says Danah Boyd, a doctoral candidate who studies social media at the University of California, Berkeley. "Now it's about parents and authority." It means that many people often don't respond to e-mails unless they have to. Boyd's own Web page carries this note: "please note that i'm months behind on e-mail and i may not respond in a timely manner." She, too, is more easily reached with the "ping" of an instant message. "And there is a very strong sense that the migration away from e-mail continues," says Lee Rainie, the director at Pew. --------------------------------- BillK From amara at amara.com Tue Aug 1 09:56:48 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:56:48 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] spamming ISPs like Fastweb (was: META: att.net users, you might need a different ISP) Message-ID: Thanks Brian, I need time to understand what means specifically a 'tunnel'. At the moment I'm corresponding with the ISP of my amara.com which is 'clean' of spam, in order to see if I can relay to that from my home connection ISP (the spammer ISP). Also, the documentation / instructions you posted is mostly for Windows, and I have Unix and Mac, so I have to make the 'conversion' in my head to understand the purpose of each step in the procedure. Thank you for the information, Amara From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 1 10:16:03 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:16:03 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060801101603.GS14701@leitl.org> On Tue, Aug 01, 2006 at 09:55:51AM +0100, BillK wrote: > > > E-mail losing ground to IM, text messaging > Young people driving switch to instant gratification communication It does neatly fit with the observed decline of communication skills. Email already does horrors to your ability to maintain focus and build cohesive narratives more than a couple paragraphs long, and IM and SMS just completely destroys verbal skills. > E-mail is so last millennium. Young people see it as a good way to > reach an elder ? a parent, teacher or a boss ? or to receive an > attached file. But increasingly, the former darling of high-tech > communication is losing favor to instant and text messaging, and to > the chatter generated on blogs and social networking sites such as > Facebook and MySpace. > > The shift is starting to creep into workplace communication, too. > > Much like home postal boxes have become receptacles for junk mail, > bills and the occasional greeting card, electronic mailboxes have > become cluttered with spam. That makes them a pain to weed through, > and the problem is only expected to worsen as some e-mail providers > allow online marketers to bypass spam filters for a fee. > > Beyond that, e-mail has become most associated with school and work. Oh, how absolutely dreadful. School! Work! Why bother, if we can have fun on WoW or SecondLife? Inability to hold a steady job? Look -- a bright and shiny object! Neat! ...what were you saying? > "It used to be just fun," says Danah Boyd, a doctoral candidate who > studies social media at the University of California, Berkeley. "Now > it's about parents and authority." > > It means that many people often don't respond to e-mails unless they have to. > > Boyd's own Web page carries this note: "please note that i'm months > behind on e-mail and i may not respond in a timely manner." She, too, > is more easily reached with the "ping" of an instant message. Have you ever tried working when the damned "ping" would interrupt you every half a minute? But hey, it's only work, right? That boring thing, with authorities one has to report to? Fuck that, let's go play WoW. > "And there is a very strong sense that the migration away from e-mail > continues," says Lee Rainie, the director at Pew. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Aug 1 12:35:45 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <20060801101603.GS14701@leitl.org> References: <20060801101603.GS14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: <40760.72.236.103.93.1154435745.squirrel@main.nc.us> > > Have you ever tried working when the damned "ping" would interrupt you > every half a minute? But hey, it's only work, right? That boring thing, > with authorities one has to report to? Fuck that, let's go play WoW. > I watched a young woman lose her job in two days over this! She did hardly anything but text-message. And it was, eventually, noticed. Even the person who had helped her get the job was disgusted. Regards, MB From amara at amara.com Tue Aug 1 17:06:14 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:06:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extrospiders Message-ID: The Queensland Museum in Australia is offering the opportunity to name a spider. http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/501 {begin quote} SYDNEY, 1 August 2006 - For those that have everything, a museum in Australia is offering a gift with a difference: the chance to name a spider after someone you love. With only a limited number of new spiders available, the Queensland Museum is hoping the bids will be high for the honour of bestowing a name upon a novel arachnid. If you are a bloke, add an -i, -ii, or -iae to your name. If you are a girl, then add -ae, or -iae. You get to choose which spider you like the most. Spider-namers, the museum says, will make history, forever recorded into textbooks and displayed at natural history museums. To authenticate the name, the Queensland Museum Foundation will give you a certificate that has your name and a detailed description of the spider. The naming process will take 4 weeks to authenticate and up to a year to record in the World Database of Spiders. The quirky gift idea was conceived as a way to raise money for Queensland biodiversity research. Anne Jones, Chair of the Board of the Queensland Museum said "A campaign donation will help scientists to continue their extensive research into Queensland's remarkable biodiversity and provide an enduring legacy for the people of this state." Some of the research money will go to furthering public understanding of the spider bites, creating biomedical materials, and adding to more basic applications of material science and engineering. The Bank of Queensland was the first to sign up for a spider name. A new species of ant spider, Habronestes boq has been named after the bank. David Liddy, managing director at the bank said he is very happy to be cosying up with a spider, "In line with Bank of Queensland's strategy to 'be different', I'm delighted to be at the forefront of this genuinely innovative concept." {end quote} -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "My, this game does teach new words!" --Hobbes From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 1 22:58:00 2006 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Accelerated wound healing by the body electric Message-ID: <20060801225800.58215.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com> Interesting. They have known for over a century now that when you are injured, an electric current flows from the center of the wound toward the edges. Supply an additional electric current of the proper characteristics and you can greatly speed up the healing process or slow it down. Despite New Scientist's enthusiasm about this, this has been used for years now. But the cool thing is that they think they have now pinned down the actual molecular signaling mechanism: PI-3-kinase and PTEN http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125624.400-to-heal-a-wound-turn-up-the-voltage.html Nature 442, 457-460(27 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04925; Received 13 February 2006; Accepted 15 May 2006 Electrical signals control wound healing through phosphatidylinositol-3-OH kinase- and PTEN Min Zhao1, Bing Song1, Jin Pu1, Teiji Wada2, Brian Reid1, Guangping Tai1, Fei Wang3,7, Aihua Guo1, Petr Walczysko1, Yu Gu1, Takehiko Sasaki4, Akira Suzuki5, John V. Forrester1, Henry R. Bourne3, Peter N. Devreotes6, Colin D. McCaig1 and Josef M. Penninger2 Top of pageAbstractWound healing is essential for maintaining the integrity of multicellular organisms. In every species studied, disruption of an epithelial layer instantaneously generates endogenous electric fields, which have been proposed to be important in wound healing1,2,3. The identity of signalling pathways that guide both cell migration to electric cues and electric-field-induced wound healing have not been elucidated at a genetic level. Here we show that electric fields, of a strength equal to those detected endogenously, direct cell migration during wound healing as a prime directional cue. Manipulation of endogenous wound electric fields affects wound healing in vivo. Electric stimulation triggers activation of Src and inositol?phospholipid signalling, which polarizes in the direction of cell migration. Notably, genetic disruption of phosphatidylinositol-3-OH kinase- (PI(3)K) decreases electric-field-induced signalling and abolishes directed movements of healing epithelium in response to electric signals. Deletion of the tumour suppressor phosphatase and tensin homolog (PTEN) enhances signalling and electrotactic responses. These data identify genes essential for electrical-signal-induced wound healing and show that PI(3)K and PTEN control electrotaxis. Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "God doesn't play dice with the universe." - Albert Einstein "Einstein, don't tell God what to do." - Neils Bohr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 2 19:21:42 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:21:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Songs from the Belly of the Whale Message-ID: Dear Extropes, Eugene sent me an article about wavelets that really made my day - A friend of mine, Mark Fischer, has a nice write-up about him in the New York Times. He transforms whale calls using wavelet transforms, and more recently turned those gorgeous pictures into animations playing simultaneously with the calls. Here are his animations on Google Video http://aguasonic.com/Movies/ My favorite is this (part of the the Nollman session described below minus the guitar) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8754908351846944032&q=aguasonic To see his work, images, that New York Times article, whale call MP3s and more, go to my Wavelet Sound Fun page and scroll down until you see the following text, then you can click on the links - http://www.amara.com/current/wavesoundfun.html ================= Whale Calls Mark Fischer has been analyzing whale calls in wavelet space, producing beautiful wavelet transforms that I think could stand in as a new form of art. For example, see this Blue whale "A" call (165 kBytes), which was transformed with a Biorthogonal 3.1 wavelet. (The vertical axis is not linear, so the bottom is a little stretched.) You can see a gallery of transformed whale sounds of at interspecies.com, watch and hear different species on Google Video, and read a nice New York Times article about his work. Finally, don't miss his fine collection of MP3 sounds from whales, dolphins and assorted sea life, too! ================= Mark Fischer's Web site: http://aguasonic.com/ My wavelet web site (now with a new look) that explains the basic ideas http://www.amara.com/current/wavelet.html And an "interspecies" session between Jim Nollman, his guitar and whales and dolphins lending to soothing and weirdly wonderful music (some of you might remember when I posted this a few years ago here) of Many Dolphins, Whales and a Guitar: http://www.interspecies.com/pages/dolphin%20realtime.html Ciao! Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "If you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - -Nietzsche From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 2 20:36:07 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:36:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Psychedelic Protein Synthesis: An Epic on the Cellular Level Message-ID: What a fun psychedelic dance! Seen via inkycircus (http://inkycircus.com/): (Paul Berg) Protein Synthesis: An Epic on the Cellular Level http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2657697036715872139 {copied from Video comments} On an open field at Stanford University in 1971, several hundred students convened to undulate and impersonate molecules undergoing protein synthesis by a ribosome. A few were trained dancers, wearing costumes and colored balloons to identify their roles; most were recruited with the promise of fun and refreshments. But make no mistake: despite the flower-power feel and psychedelic strains of the "Protein Jive Sutra," this is serious science. The narrator is Nobel laureate Paul Berg, who explains the process in a prologue that introduces the leading players, such as 30s Ribosome, mRNA, and Initiator Factor One. {end comments} Amara From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Aug 2 22:26:40 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:26:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ References: <200606240927.k5O9Rh1Q024702@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <003101c69835$950ca3c0$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <010701c6b682$e39f27e0$0200a8c0@Nano> Nanogirl News August 2, 2006 Carbon nanotubes offer 'green' technology for perchlorate removal. Researchers at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory have demonstrated a new, environmentally friendly process for treating water contaminated by perchlorate, a toxic chemical that has been found in drinking water in 35 states. (Physorg 7.25.06) http://www.physorg.com/news73064933.html Living with Nanotubes. Carbon nanotubes are stronger than steel and 50,000 times finer than human hair. Unfortunately they kill cells, which discourages researchers who'd like to use them to diagnose and treat disease. Now scientists have created a mimic of natural mucin that can make carbon nanotubes safe for living things. (Berkeley Lab 7.26.06) http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sabl/2006/Jul/01.html Nano World: Nanofibers for heart cells. The heart function of rats following heart attacks can be improved using heart cells wrapped in organic fibers only nanometers or billionths of a meter long that are impregnated with growth hormones, experts tell UPI's Nano World. (Physorg 5.12.06) http://www.physorg.com/news66654477.html Nanotechnology being used to improve biocompatibility of human prosthetics and implants. As populations of the world age the current trend is that people are not slowing down in their later years. The desire for increased activity among the elderly also means increased demands on medical researchers to come up with better ways to keep them active. (A2Z 8.2.06) http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=6210 Gold nanoparticles could improve antisense cancer drugs. In the fight against cancer, antisense drugs, which prevent genes from producing harmful proteins such as those that cause cancer, have the promise to be more effective than conventional drugs, but the pace of development of these new drugs has been slow. Using gold nanoparticles combined with DNA, scientists at Northwestern University now have demonstrated a new method for developing antisense drugs that outperform conventional antisense agents. The findings will be published May 19 in the journal Science. (EurekAlert 5.18.06) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/nu-gnc051606.php CMU professor says nanotechnology study may lead to tinier computers. Ever had the urge to slip your 500-gigabyte desktop computer into your back pocket? Koblar Alan Jackson is making no promises, but the Central Michigan University professor's research in nanophotonics may help lay the groundwork for future generations of computer downsizing. Think technology that one day could make the iPod's microcircuits resemble the oversize vacuum tubes in your grandfather's TV. (CMU 8.2.06) http://www.news.cmich.edu/news/index.asp?id=1448 World's tiniest test tubes get teensiest corks. Now all they need is a really, really small corkscrew. Like Lilliputian chemists, scientists have found a way to "cork" infinitesimally small nano test tubes. The goal is a better way to deliver drugs, for example, for cancer treatment. Scientists want to fill the teeny tubes with drugs and inject them into the body, where they will seek diseased or cancerous cells, uncork and spill their therapeutic contents in the right place. (nanotechwire 5.10.06) http://www.nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=3291 Sandia work launched on space shuttle shows live cells influence growth of nanostructures. Implications for sensors, tuberculosis modeling, cell preparation, surgical implant safety. Far above the heads of Earthlings, arrays of single-cell creatures are circling Earth in nanostructures. The sample devices are riding on the International Space Station (courtesy of Sandia National Laboratories and the University of New Mexico, NASA and US Air Force) to test whether nanostructures whose formations were directed by yeast and other single cells can create more secure homes for their occupants-even in the vacuum and radiation of outer space-than those created by more standard chemical procedures. (Brightsurf 7.24.06) http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/25502/Sandia_work_launched_on_space_shuttle_shows_live_cells_influence_growth_of_nanostructures.html Vertically Oriented Nanoelectronics. Engineers at Purdue University have developed a technique to grow individual carbon nanotubes vertically on top of a silicon wafer, a step toward making advanced electronics, wireless devices and sensors using nanotubes by stacking circuits and components in layers. The technique might help develop a method for creating "vertically oriented" nanoelectronic devices, the electronic equivalent of a skyscraper, said Timothy S. Fisher, an associate professor of mechanical engineering who is leading the work with Timothy D. Sands, the Basil S. Turner Professor of Engineering. (Technologynewsdaily Aug. 06) http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/3959 Blood-compatible nanoscale materials possible using heparin. Researchers from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have engineered nanoscale materials that are blood compatible using heparin, an anticoagulant. The heparin biomaterials have potential for use as medical devices and in medical treatments such as kidney dialysis. (Rensselaer 5.4.06) http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=1523&setappvar=page(1) Reflections of an Atom. Physicists have developed lenses and prisms to manipulate beams of atoms and molecules as though they were beams of light. Now, in the 21 July PRL, a team reports on their design and testing of an atomic mirror. Before reflection, the system must put the atoms into a highly excited state. Almost any atom or molecule can be excited into one of these states, so the mirror along with other components could lead to new experiments on the wave nature of atoms, as well as improved devices like gyroscopes or atomic clocks, researchers say. (PRL 8.1.06) http://focus.aps.org/story/v18/st3 Rice scientists attach motor to single-molecule car. In follow-on work to last year's groundbreaking invention of the world's first single-molecule car, chemists at Rice University have produced the first motorized version of their tiny nanocar. The research is published in the April 13 issue of the journal Organic Letters. (EurekAlert 4.12.06) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-04/ru-rsa041206.php Nanodogs could sniff out explosives in terror battle. Welsh scientists have developed a sensor they call a nanodog which is capable of 'sniffing' out microscopic low levels of explosives. It is hoped the technology will be used in the fight against terrorism, with airports and governments already showing an interest. The nanodog was developed by a team from the University of Wales, Bangor's school of chemistry, led by Professor Maher Kalaji. (Small Times 7.28.06) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=11931 Nanogenerators Convert Mechanical Energy To Electricity For Self-powered Devices. Researchers have developed a new technique for powering nanometer-scale devices without the need for bulky energy sources such as batteries. By converting mechanical energy from body movement, muscle stretching or water flow into electricity, these "nanogenerators" could make possible a new class of self-powered implantable medical devices, sensors and portable electronics. (ScienceDaily 4.16.06) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414011916.htm Carbon nanotubes enter Tour de France. If Floyd Landis wins the three-week Tour de France, it will be a victory for nanotechnology too. Landis, the leader of the Phonak team and one of the pre-race favorites, rides a bike that's been enhanced with carbon nanotubes. Although nanotubes have previously been sprinkled into cranks and other components to reduce weight and provide additional strength, the bikes ridden by the Phonak team have nanotubes swirled into the frame--a first, according to their Swiss manufacturer, BMC. (Cnet 7.7.06) http://news.com.com/Carbon+nanotubes+enter+Tour+de+France/2100-11395_3-6091347.html Nanotube membranes offer possibility of cheaper desalination. A nanotube membrane on a silicon chip the size of a quarter may offer a cheaper way to remove salt from water. Researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have created a membrane made of carbon nanotubes and silicon that may offer, among many possible applications, a less expensive desalinization. The nanotubes, special molecules made of carbon atoms in a unique arrangement, are hollow and more than 50,000 times thinner than a human hair. Billions of these tubes act as the pores in the membrane. (LLNL 5.18.06) http://www.llnl.gov/pao/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-05-06.html World's Smallest Bit of Nylon. A US scientist has made the world's smallest fragment of nylon and hopes to make more by harnessing the self-assembling properties of DNA, ABC wrote. Professor Nadrian Seeman of New York University says the long-term plan is to make ultra strong nylon. "The same properties of DNA that make it such a wonderful genetic material can be utilized in other ways," says Seeman, a pioneer of what is called structural DNA nanotechnology. (Irandaily 8.2.06) http://www.iran-daily.com/1385/2627/html/science.htm#s163947 Just one nanosecond: Clocking events at the nanoscale. As scientists and engineers build devices at smaller and smaller scales, grasping the dynamics of how materials behave when they are subjected to electrical signals, sound and other manipulations has proven to be beyond the reach of standard scientific techniques. But now a team of University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers has found a way to time such effects at the nanometer scale, in essence clocking the movements of atoms as they are manipulated using electric fields. (U of Wisconsin - Madison 5.18.06) http://www.news.wisc.edu/12614.html Scientists Image 'Magnetic Semiconductors' On The Nanoscale. In a first-of-its-kind achievement, scientists at the University of Iowa, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Princeton University have directly imaged the magnetic interactions between two magnetic atoms less than one nanometer apart (one billionth of a meter) and embedded in a semiconductor chip. (Science Daily 7.26.06) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060726180353.htm Add Nanotubes and Stir-With the Right Force. Polymer scientists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology have some stirring results to share with researchers and companies developing new, advanced composite materials with carbon nanotubes-mix carefully. In a paper for Physical Review Letters,* they explain how the amount of force applied while mixing carbon nanotube suspensions influences the way the tiny cylinders ultimately disperse and orient themselves. (nanotechwire.com 7.23.06) http://www.nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=3524 Nano Probe May Open New Window Into Cell Behavior. Georgia Tech invention captures cell properties and biochemical signals in action. Georgia Tech researchers have created a nanoscale probe, the Scanning Mass Spectrometry (SMS) probe, that can capture both the biochemical makeup and topography of complex biological objects in their normal environment - opening the door for discovery of new biomarkers and improved gene studies, leading to better disease diagnosis and drug design on the cellular level. The research was presented in the July issue of IEE Electronics Letters. (GIT 7.24.06) http://www.gatech.edu/news-room/release.php?id=1056 Nano World: Nano helps keep cells alive. Encasing living cells in networks of silica and fatty layers only nanometers or billionths of a meter in size could help keep them alive longer for use in novel chemical factories or sensors, experts tell UPI's Nano World. Scientists are tinkering with integrating cells into devices. However, the usual method of doing so involves encapsulating them in silica gel, but when these dry out, stresses are generated that kill cells. Materials scientist Jeff Brinker at Sandia National Laboratory and the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque and colleagues instead used live cells to direct the formation of scaffolds that would help keep them alive. (UPI 7.26.06) http://www.upi.com/Hi-Tech/view.php?StoryID=20060721-090232-7030r Researchers at Rice University's Laboratory for Nanophotonics (LANP) today unveiled the "nanoegg," the latest addition to their family ultrasmall, light-focusing particles. A cousin of the versatile nanoshell, nanoeggs are asymmetric specks of matter whose striking optical properties can be harnessed for molecular imaging, medical diagnostics, chemical sensing and more. Nanoeggs are described in the July 18 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. (Rice 7.20.06) http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=8658 Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Participating Member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at tsoft.com Thu Aug 3 03:55:00 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 20:55:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence Message-ID: Could an intelligence exist using our basic human architecture that could rapidly solve problems far harder than anyone can solve today? Here is what I have in mind: suppose first that there is a canonical way to extend the IQ scale. Then would it be possible for a set of atoms to exist, human in form, such that using our same sense organs and with a brain less than twice as large as ours it would have an IQ high enough to in one week flat accomplish any of the following? * figure out how a fusion energy reactor could be designed, and write up specifications sufficiently detailed so that the rest of us could build the thing * provide a specific outline of how an AGI could be coded- up following the outline/design by a good software team in six months * be able to understand at about normal reading speed any book ever written, much as you can easily understand and absorb everything being conveyed by a Dick-and-Jane book Speaking of extending the IQ scale, I have finished yet another scandalous and totally un-PC book entitled "Race Differences in Intelligence" 2006 by Richard Lynn, with the latest depressing news about human intellectual differences. Seems like we have Jews 112, East Asians 105, Europeans 100, indigenous American Indians and indigenous Latin Americans 90, blacks in America 85, blacks in Africa 75, Australian Aborigines 62, and Kalahari San 56. (The last three mentioned would be about 5 points higher but for nutritional deficiencies, it is estimated.) Also, it's the judgment of myself and some of my friends who've read Kanzi (the amazing bonobo chimpanzee) that he has the abilities of, perhaps, a four-year-old, which would put him at about IQ 25 on the human scale! Have you ever fleetingly thought "Tom is twice as smart as Sam", Tom and Sam being two of your acquaintances, only to bring yourself up short by recalling that such multiples are really meaningless? Sometimes it has seemed to me that people of IQ 140 are about twice as smart as those at 120, and so on. But the suggestive numbers above (genius bonabo 25, Kalahari San 56, Jew 112) actually derive from human age chronology: after all, IQ originally meant Intelligence Quotient, and invited us to consider---with rather amazing reliability and consistency---the average eight-year-old as being in some sense twice as smart as a four-year-old. Sometimes the social statisticians and the psychometricians do accomplish miracles of deduction by extreme attention to detail and comparison of many, many different results. But I wonder if there will be any hope of extending measures of cognitive ability above and beyond the human range. Perhaps, if the age/developmental ability of such a creature could be made parallel to human development. Lee From lcorbin at tsoft.com Thu Aug 3 03:43:52 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 20:43:52 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <40760.72.236.103.93.1154435745.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: Eugen wrote > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:16 AM > > On Tue, Aug 01, 2006 at 09:55:51AM +0100, BillK wrote: > > > > > > E-mail losing ground to IM, text messaging > > Young people driving switch to instant gratification communication > > It does neatly fit with the observed decline of communication > skills. Email already does horrors to your ability to maintain > focus and build cohesive narratives more than a couple paragraphs > long, and IM and SMS just completely destroys verbal skills. and MB testified (Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:36 AM) > I watched a young woman lose her job in two days over this! > She did hardly anything but text-message. And it was, eventually, > noticed. Even the person who had helped her get the job was disgusted. I wish I knew how important this is. A mitigating factor is that what happens to *most* young people doesn't matter. What matters is what the small percent (dare I say "elite"?) do. Somehow I doubt that the better college students are performing any worse in terms of writing skills than before. That is, probably even the most avid of the text-messagers manage to compartmentalize the behavior. Frankly, I have some doubt about Eugen's contention that "Email does horrors to your ability to maintain focus and build cohesive narratives". It probably has more of an effect on one's *desire* to write anything substantial than on one's skill. This does bring up the perennial question of what really matters and what does not regarding the entire development of society and civilization. The more you get out into the world, the more you realize how much is going on about which you have no clue. Twenty years before the web, I lived in a town of just 100,000, and everything that came from the larger world was effectively filtered through books, newspapers, and TV. Millions of on-line communities and our greatly expanded social exchanges did not exist, or at least did not exist outside the big cities. Lee From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 04:59:30 2006 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 05:59:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d71341e0608022159h1ce9c7a1xd4bd58996f53ff4@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/06, Lee Corbin wrote: > > Could an intelligence exist using our basic human architecture > that could rapidly solve problems far harder than anyone can > solve today? What do you mean by "basic human architecture"? Hardware or software? Here is what I have in mind: suppose first that there is a > canonical way to extend the IQ scale. But the IQ scale itself isn't canonical. Even among humans, who all have basically the same hardware and software architecture, there isn't a single measure - IQ is, for example, a notoriously bad predictor of things like wisdom and social skills. Then would it be possible > for a set of atoms to exist, human in form, such that using our > same sense organs and with a brain less than twice as large as > ours it would have an IQ high enough to in one week flat > accomplish any of the following? > > * figure out how a fusion energy reactor could be designed, > and write up specifications sufficiently detailed so that > the rest of us could build the thing > > * provide a specific outline of how an AGI could be coded- > up following the outline/design by a good software team > in six months > > * be able to understand at about normal reading speed any > book ever written, much as you can easily understand and > absorb everything being conveyed by a Dick-and-Jane book No. The above tasks would require _knowledge_ - whether a particular CAD design would make a viable fusion reactor, for example, is a fact about the real world, not about symbols shuffled inside the mind. And to ascertain that fact will require more than a week of work, irrespective of how fast the mind proposing the design thinks. The fantasy roleplaying game 'Dungeons and Dragons' measures the physical attractiveness of characters in the game on a numeric scale, where 10 is average and 18 is the maximum possible for any human. Inevitably given the game's subject matter, this was then extended with supplemental rules for fantastic beings, for example the goddess Venus would have a score of 20-something. Of course, once you have a number, the obvious thing to postulate is continual increases in that number. If I recall correctly, somewhere in the many volumes of D&D supplemental rules is one that states that an entity with attractiveness score of 30 or higher, when perceived by a human of the appropriate sexual orientation, can cause the hapless human to instantly drop dead of a heart attack. In this case we can all immediately see how unrealistic it is. We all know of course that while it may sometimes be convenient to assign a numerical rating to attractiveness, that's a fiction; attractiveness isn't actually a mathematical function. The same is true of intelligence; it simply isn't a mathematical function of an information processing system. There just isn't any quantity of which an increase will enable a system to deliver answers to arbitrary problems. (You can use one of the measures based on Kolmogorov complexity that have been proposed, but if you do you'll find it doesn't correlate well with performance at real world tasks.) There ain't no such thing as a free lunch... or even, alas, a budget-price one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at tsoft.com Thu Aug 3 06:01:57 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 23:01:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0608022159h1ce9c7a1xd4bd58996f53ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Russell writes > > Could an intelligence exist using our basic human architecture > > that could rapidly solve problems far harder than anyone can > > solve today? > What do you mean by "basic human architecture"? Hardware or software? I explained later in my post: limited to the same senses. Also, though, I should have indeed said something like: consisting of a single cerebral cortex. I definitely want to exclude some kind of arbitrary multi-minded computronium-based solution, because probably no one could argue that *that* would not be possible. > > Here is what I have in mind: suppose first that there is a > > canonical way to extend the IQ scale. > But the IQ scale itself isn't canonical. Even among humans, > who all have basically the same hardware and software architecture, > there isn't a single measure - IQ is, for example, a notoriously > bad predictor of things like wisdom and social skills. Of course. But as a measure of g, that is, of cognitive ability, it serves astoundingly well. * figure out how a fusion energy reactor could be designed, and write up specifications sufficiently detailed so that the rest of us could build the thing * provide a specific outline of how an AGI could be coded- up following the outline/design by a good software team in six months * be able to understand at about normal reading speed any book ever written, much as you can easily understand and absorb everything being conveyed by a Dick-and-Jane book > No. The above tasks would require _knowledge_ - whether a > particular CAD design would make a viable fusion reactor, > for example, is a fact about the real world, not about symbols > shuffled inside the mind. Well, yes. Thanks, this *is* the kind of criticism I solicit. But it'll take a little more to persuade me; after all I am positing *extreme* intelligence. No upper bound, (except as some possible limitation to our architecture). You are, of course, quite right about knowledge. But the rate at which knowledge can be acquired is surely commensurate with intelligence, wouldn't you say? As for extending IQ, recall how chess and some other straight- forward tasks work. In chess, you stand the same probability of defeating a player 100 points below you regardless of your talent or level of skill (this is how the Elo scale was devised, and how scales in East Asian sports, for example, the famous Dan and Kyu, work). By considering a huge variety of tasks, perhaps it becomes possible to describe a level of intelligence X such that X is to 200 as 200 is to 180, and then to call that 220. In other words, we take enough samples of tasks demanding cognitive capability, and calibrate our measure accordingly. (By the way, your examples of wisdom and social skills simply don't correlate with cognitive ability as measured by practitioners in the field; they're pretty much in agreement on this.) > And to ascertain that fact will require more than a week of > work, irrespective of how fast the mind proposing the design > thinks. I wish I knew how you are so confident. Are you saying that it's flat out impossible no matter how smart a piece of matter is? Or one limited to, as I say, "human architecture"? I must hasten to say that by allowing a week (or a month, whatever), I am supposing that lengthy and costly experiments do not need to me done, and I could be entirely wrong. Somehow, it seems strikingly interesting and peculiar if it emerged that no matter how smart some piece of matter was, all it could do would be to shrug and say "the data simply is not available, and you would have to do the following 26 experiments...". > The same is true of intelligence; it simply isn't a mathematical > function of an information processing system. There just isn't > any quantity of which an increase will enable a system to deliver > answers to arbitrary problems. (You can use one of the measures > based on Kolmogorov complexity that have been proposed, but if > you do you'll find it doesn't correlate well with performance at > real world tasks.) Why isn't it a mathematical function of an information processing system? Lee From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 06:56:51 2006 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:56:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: References: <8d71341e0608022159h1ce9c7a1xd4bd58996f53ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0608022356l53b0c0abncbeb04454072f92a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/06, Lee Corbin wrote: > > I explained later in my post: limited to the same senses. Also, > though, I should have indeed said something like: consisting > of a single cerebral cortex. I definitely want to exclude some > kind of arbitrary multi-minded computronium-based solution, > because probably no one could argue that *that* would not be > possible. Well that's the question - senses are easy enough, we already have many devices for extending those, but are you assuming there's still a restriction to biological neurons operating at 200 Hz, or are you assuming molecular electronics at 2 GHz or what? Not that it makes any difference to the conclusions, but I'm curious about what you meant. Of course. But as a measure of g, that is, of cognitive ability, > it serves astoundingly well. Considering that g/cognitive ability are usually defined as performance on IQ tests, it would be rather surprising if it didn't :) You are, of course, quite right about knowledge. But the rate > at which knowledge can be acquired is surely commensurate with > intelligence, wouldn't you say? It's related to intelligence, or rather intelligence is related to it; if an entity is good at acquiring knowledge quickly, we tend to say that entity is intelligent. It's also, however, related to the rate at which knowledge is available. As for extending IQ, recall how chess and some other straight- > forward tasks work. Chess is a straightforward task, yes. Specifically, of the four levels of difficulty: 1. NP-hard 2. EXPTIME-hard 3. Incomputable 4. Ill-posed problem Simple games like chess don't normally go past level 2; real world problems tend to be at level 4; so we can't draw too many useful conclusions from chess. Though it does suffice to demolish the idea of a canonical intelligence scale: how intelligent is Deep Blue? By considering a huge variety of tasks, perhaps it becomes > possible to describe a level of intelligence X such that X > is to 200 as 200 is to 180, and then to call that 220. In > other words, we take enough samples of tasks demanding > cognitive capability, and calibrate our measure accordingly. But people with IQs of say 180, greatly differ among themselves in ability to perform tasks other than taking IQ tests. And that's just members of H. sapiens with the same basic architecture; the differences among minds in general will obviously be far larger. (By the way, your examples of wisdom and social skills simply > don't correlate with cognitive ability as measured by > practitioners in the field; they're pretty much in agreement > on this.) Exactly. I wish I knew how you are so confident. Are you saying that > it's flat out impossible no matter how smart a piece of matter > is? Yes. I must > hasten to say that by allowing a week (or a month, whatever), > I am supposing that lengthy and costly experiments do not need > to me done, and I could be entirely wrong. That's what I'm saying - if you want to solve a problem, you need the relevant data, which means you need to do the experiments. If you just make up the data, the results won't correspond to reality. GIGO. Somehow, it seems > strikingly interesting and peculiar if it emerged that no matter > how smart some piece of matter was, all it could do would be to > shrug and say "the data simply is not available, and you would > have to do the following 26 experiments...". Why would you regard it as peculiar that it's not possible to calculate answers without the required data? Most of the things we want to know cannot be deduced from the axioms of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory because they simply do not logically follow from those axioms. Why isn't it a mathematical function of an information processing > system? > Because the answers we want are not functions or properties of the information processing system or its internal symbolisms - they are properties of the real world. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Thu Aug 3 17:51:04 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 19:51:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Accelerated wound healing by the body electric References: <20060801225800.58215.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015401c6b725$64a2ed70$c2911f97@nomedxgm1aalex> > "God doesn't play dice with the universe." > - Albert Einstein Not sure he wrote exactly that. In a letter to Max Born (4 December 1926), he wrote: 'Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory produces a good deal but hardly brings us closer to the secret of the Old one. I am at all events convinced that He does not play dice.' s. 'I raised just this objection [about limits of Platonism] with the (extreme) ultrafinitist Yessenin Volpin during a lecture of his. He asked me to be more specific. I then proceeded to start with 2^1 and asked him whether this is "real" or something to that effect. He virtually immediately said yes. Then I asked about 2^2, and he again said yes, but with a perceptible delay. Then 2^3, and yes, but with more delay. This continued for a couple of more times, till it was obvious how he was handling this objection. Sure, he was prepared to always answer yes, but he was going to take 2^100 times as long to answer yes to 2^100 then he would to answering 2^1. There is no way that I could get very far with this.' -Harvey M. Friedman From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Aug 3 18:25:21 2006 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2006, at 8:55 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Could an intelligence exist using our basic human architecture > that could rapidly solve problems far harder than anyone can > solve today? > > Here is what I have in mind: suppose first that there is a > canonical way to extend the IQ scale. Then would it be possible > for a set of atoms to exist, human in form, such that using our > same sense organs and with a brain less than twice as large as > ours it would have an IQ high enough to in one week flat > accomplish any of the following? > What do you mean by "human in form"? Looks like a human and acts like a human and has human DNA, etc but is much smarter? If so then adding circuitry and deep connectivity to a human brain, preferably within the skull, should allow quite a bit of improvement. Replacing select parts of the brain with electronic faster equivalents is one way to do it. > * figure out how a fusion energy reactor could be designed, > and write up specifications sufficiently detailed so that > the rest of us could build the thing > Writing detailed specs is not a function of only greater intelligence. It takes slow meat world time. So no unless the uber- human is equipped with direct computer/brain IO. > * provide a specific outline of how an AGI could be coded- > up following the outline/design by a good software team > in six months > Predesigned and simply implemented software is largely mythological for much simpler projects. So no, not exactly. > * be able to understand at about normal reading speed any > book ever written, much as you can easily understand and > absorb everything being conveyed by a Dick-and-Jane book Yes and no. Order of new knowledge would be important due to dependencies. With that caveat and the caveat that actual learning and retention were similarly enhanced, yes. - samantha From amara at amara.com Thu Aug 3 19:40:46 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:40:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] World Bank Report: Doing Business in 2006 Message-ID: Doing Business in 2006. How some countries do it better and worse than others. From the web site: http://www.doingbusiness.org/ "The Doing Business database provides objective measures of business regulations and their enforcement. The Doing Business indicators are comparable across 155 economies. They indicate the regulatory costs of business and can be used to analyze specific regulations that enhance or constrain investment, productivity and growth." Report: http://www.doingbusiness.org/documents/DoingBusines2006_fullreport.pdf Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -Thomas Edison From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Aug 3 21:11:34 2006 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:11:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 55 Cancri Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060803161031.021455d0@satx.rr.com> Space.Com - New York, New York, USA http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060801_science_tuesday.html 01 August 2006 Habitable Planet Possible Around Nearby Star System By Robert Roy Britt Senior Science Writer [...] The 55 Cancri system involves three gas giant planets and another world that could be icy or rocky and is about the size of Neptune. The setup is 41 light-years from Earth and about 4.7 billion years old, comparable to our Sun. Astronomers have said since 2002, when a planet was found at about the same orbital distance from 55 Cancri as Jupiter is from the Sun, that the star had the potential to harbor an Earth-sized world. A new computer simulation shows that amid the giant worlds orbiting 55 Cancri, a small rocky world could indeed have formed=97in theory=97and attracted enough water to support life as we know it. "Our models show a habitable planet, a planet with mass, temperature and water content similar to Earth's, could have formed," said Rory Barnes, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Arizona. Barnes and colleagues ran several simulations of varying scenarios around four stars, each known to have at least two giant planets. They put moon-sized planetary embryos into the systems during their youth and allowed them to evolve for 100 million years. The idea, based on the leading planet-formation theory, is that small objects collect more material and, if they don't collide with another big object, become planets. Star of the show Only 55 Cancri consistently yielded a world similar in size and orbital distance to Earth. Our planet sits in what's called a habitable zone, just the right distance from the Sun to allow liquid water. "Our simulations typically produced one terrestrial planet in the habitable zone of 55 Cancri, with a typical mass of about half an Earth mass," said Sean Raymond, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Colorado who worked on the project while a doctoral student at the University of Washington. "In many of the simulations, these planets accreted a decent amount of water-rich material from farther out in the disk." The research, funded by NASA and the National Science Foundation, is described in a recent issue of the Astrophysical Journal. A computer simulation is of course far from reality. But research like this can guide astronomers to solar systems worthy of further investigation as search technology improves. "Our assumptions are quite optimistic, but not crazy by any means, and we start our simulations with a decent amount of material for terrestrial planets to form," Raymond told SPACE.com. "If we are wrong about this, then only smaller, perhaps Mars-sized planets could form in the habitable zone." The best bet Two other stars yielded little suggestion of habitable worlds. Another star, named HD 38529, is likely to support an asteroid belt and objects up to the size of Mars, the simulations indicate. "In terms of the systems we looked at, 55 Cancri has the largest zone between giant planets in which terrestrial planets may form and remain on stable orbits," Raymond said. "So, I think the chance of other planets existing in the system is pretty good, but it's certainly not definitive at the moment." Other modeling by Raymond has shown that only about 5 percent of the known giant-planet systems are likely to have Earth-like planets. But, he and others have said, there may well be many solar systems similar to our own, in which the giant planets are all on the outskirts, that simply can't be detected yet. From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 21:53:01 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:53:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Accelerated wound healing by the body electric In-Reply-To: <015401c6b725$64a2ed70$c2911f97@nomedxgm1aalex> References: <20060801225800.58215.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com> <015401c6b725$64a2ed70$c2911f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Message-ID: On 8/3/06, scerir wrote: > > Not sure he wrote exactly that. In a letter to Max Born > (4 December 1926), he wrote: 'Quantum mechanics is very > impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet > the real thing. The theory produces a good deal but hardly > brings us closer to the secret of the Old one. I am > at all events convinced that He does not play dice.' > He wrote that letter in German, so we are working with a translation. "Jedenfalls bin ich ?berzeugt, dass der nicht w?rfelt". At any rate, I am convinced that He does not throw dice. Albert Einstein once noted in a letter to George Seldes, 'Many things which go under my name are badly translated from the German or are invented by other people.' The physicist said this to explain his suggested deletion from Seldes's quotation collection of, among other things, his famous observation that 'there is no hitching post in the universe.' This was said to have been Einstein's response to a reporter's request for a one-line summary of his theory of relativity. Einstein didn't delete 'God does not play dice,' the bumper-stickered version of his 1926 observation, 'I, at any rate, am convinced that He is not playing at dice.' Other references say that the dice quotation was a favorite of Einstein's and he said various versions of it throughout his life. It seems that he intended to say not that quantum mechanics theory was wrong, but rather that it was incomplete. BillK From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 04:39:23 2006 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 14:09:23 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <20060801101603.GS14701@leitl.org> References: <20060801101603.GS14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0608032139s435be1a3x8219a21de5315fd4@mail.gmail.com> On 01/08/06, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > Beyond that, e-mail has become most associated with school and work. > > Oh, how absolutely dreadful. School! Work! Why bother, if we can > have fun on WoW or SecondLife? Inability to hold a steady job? > Look -- a bright and shiny object! Neat! ...what were you saying? > > > "It used to be just fun," says Danah Boyd, a doctoral candidate who > > studies social media at the University of California, Berkeley. "Now > > it's about parents and authority." > > > > It means that many people often don't respond to e-mails unless they have to. > > > > Boyd's own Web page carries this note: "please note that i'm months > > behind on e-mail and i may not respond in a timely manner." She, too, > > is more easily reached with the "ping" of an instant message. > > Have you ever tried working when the damned "ping" would interrupt you > every half a minute? But hey, it's only work, right? That boring thing, > with authorities one has to report to? Fuck that, let's go play WoW. Oh, the horrors of a WoW addiction... I've had to learn an entirely new level of self control to work remotely on a machine with WoW installed. I've been successful though. Anyway, I've been experiencing the change in online communication styles through work. I'm currently leading a development team where everyone is remote - I'm in Adelaide, we've got two guys in Sydney (who both work from home, no office there), and a guy in Brisbane, some related people and our infrastructure in Canberra. We have a "standup meeting" every morning at 10am (eastern standard time - we had to pick a timezone as our "reference time" to make things easier), say what we did yesterday, what we are going to do today, flag any obstacles, then we sign off and off we go. That meeting is held using VoIP (Skype actually) + IM (also using Skype). Then the day commences (continues - we do start earlier than 10am!). If there is stuff that multiple people need to work on, we catch each other on IM, start up a voice conference using Skype, then someone kicks off a GotoMeeting meeting, so multiple people we can see one person's desktop (check out GotoMeeting.com, the technology is awesome for Windows people, it's owned by citrix and uses their technology, incredibly responsive). We've had many team coding sessions where people in multiple states are taking turns using one guy's machine; for example, a session a week ago where our Brisbane based guy (actually he might have been on the gold coast, he moves around a bit) shared out his dev environment, and myself and a guy in Sydney took turns coding up some difficult multi-threaded stuff to resolve a problem. We also have remote secure source control (use of which is fully integrated into the Visual Studio .net IDE through plugins), a remote secure bug tracking/issues management system, and a "content management system" (an internal portal thingy) for information storage (you know, word documents and stuff). I was working remotely a few years ago, and you could do it, but it was clunky. Now, this geographically dispersed dev team is functioning extremely smoothly - in fact, there are many ways in which it is superior to a co-located team. For instance, all our IM is recorded by default, we can easily record voice conferences and remote desktop sessions too. Sometimes when one team member is demonstrating a bunch of new stuff to the rest of the team, we record the gotomeeting session, then put the resulting .wmv file on our internal portal for later use as a canned tutorial or as documentation. Easy. IMs can be really irritating, because they interrupt you, but they are better than a phone. You can still ignore them if you want, you can use status settings to tell people you are busy, you can see if other people are busy or even at their machine before you bug them. But yes, I have total overload some days, with Skype, MSNMessenger going off while I've got urgent email turning up, phone calls, and someone standing next to me talking to me! That sucks. As for email, well, I'm only using gmail these days (much to the horror of the procedures oriented people in our org, who think we should be using our severly screwed up corporate Exchange based email). Still awesome, best email ever. Hardly any junk mail gets though the filters, either. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * Music downloads are online again! From lcorbin at tsoft.com Fri Aug 4 05:06:12 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:06:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Samantha writes > > Could an intelligence exist using our basic human architecture > > that could rapidly solve problems far harder than anyone can > > solve today? > > > > Here is what I have in mind: suppose first that there is a > > canonical way to extend the IQ scale. Then would it be possible > > for a set of atoms to exist, human in form, such that using our > > same sense organs and with a brain less than twice as large as > > ours it would have an IQ high enough to in one week flat > > accomplish any of the following? > > What do you mean by "human in form"? Looks like a human and acts > like a human and has human DNA, etc but is much smarter? Right. > If so then adding circuitry and deep connectivity to a human brain, preferably > within the skull, should allow quite a bit of improvement. Replacing > select parts of the brain with electronic faster equivalents is one > way to do it. I did want to forbid simple speed-up with, say, electronic equivalents. But your remarks on deep connectivity open an aspect I hadn't considered. > > * figure out how a fusion energy reactor could be designed, > > and write up specifications sufficiently detailed so that > > the rest of us could build the thing > > Writing detailed specs is not a function of only greater > intelligence. It takes slow meat world time. So no unless > the uber-human is equipped with direct computer/brain IO. If you and Russell are right in your negative assessments, that in itself is quite remarkable: To wit, that no matter how intelligent a human being could be, it would not be possible for him to complete this task in the allotted time. (Almost every sentence with a "no matter how" or an "every" is pretty remarkable, if true.) Consider the admittedly far more abstract task of outlining a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem that human mathematicians of 1970 could have used to construct an actual proof. I dare say that there exists a two-page description that the 1970 mathematicians could have read and understood, a description that would have allowed them a straight path to a proof along the 1994 lines that they could have implemented in a few months. Think about all the descriptions limited by (parametrized by) number of words that exists in the abstract; for example, the set of all 500 word descriptions. Such a concept can be useful. Here is one application: In philosophy, Chalmers and others consider the "hard problem" of human consciousness. But I do not think that there can exist any combination of 500 (or 5000) words that would supply the answer they're looking for, and that the reason is that they are simply looking at the problem wrong. But I do think that there exists a 15,000 word outline of how to build a nuclear power plant. So you are saying that no conceivable human would likely stumble upon that description. > > * be able to understand at about normal reading speed any > > book ever written, much as you can easily understand and > > absorb everything being conveyed by a Dick-and-Jane book > > Yes and no. Order of new knowledge would be important due to > dependencies. With that caveat and the caveat that actual > learning and retention were similarly enhanced, yes. And of course, the proposed activity of a super-smart human in devising an outline of Fermat's Last Theorem is an application of being able to read and understand almost anything. I figure that it was physically possible for some collection of molecules (in the shape of and with the mental architecture of a human) to have in 1970 thought about Fermat's Last Theorem for a few days and written up such an outline. The emphasis is on *some* collection, as the emphasis is supposed to be on "Extreme" in the subject line of these exchanges. Lee From lcorbin at tsoft.com Fri Aug 4 05:18:16 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:18:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] World Bank Report: Doing Business in 2006 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amara writes > Doing Business in 2006. How some countries do it better and worse > than others. > > From the web site: > http://www.doingbusiness.org/ > > "The Doing Business database provides objective measures of business > regulations and their enforcement. The Doing Business indicators are > comparable across 155 economies. They indicate the regulatory costs of > business and can be used to analyze specific regulations that enhance or > constrain investment, productivity and growth." > Report: > > http://www.doingbusiness.org/documents/DoingBusines2006_fullreport.pdf The table of contents to the .pdf didn't say where the summary info could be found, but page three already had quite a bit: New Zealand has the most business-friendly regulation in the world, as measured by the Doing Business indicators (table 1.2). Singapore is the runner-up. The United States is third. Five other East Asian countries-Hong Kong (China), Japan, Thailand, Malaysia and Korea- are among the top 30. So are the Baltic countries-Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. Their ranking is a remarkable achievement, as only a decade has passed since they fi rst began reforms. But the rankings on the ease of doing business also show that many reformers still have a long way to go. Although Eastern Europe was the top reforming region, some of its countries still rank poorly on the ease of doing business. For example, Serbia and Montenegro's rank is 92, Croatia's is 118 and Ukraine's 124. Egypt, another top reformer in 2004, ranks 141. And India, though making big gains on collateral recovery and ease of registering property, ranks 116-25 places behind China. Rankings on the ease of doing business do not tell the whole story. The indicator is limited in scope. It does not account for a country's proximity to large markets, quality of infrastructure services (other than services related to trading across borders), the security of property from theft and looting, macroeconomic conditions or the underlying strength of institutions. Thus while Jamaica ranks close (at 43) on the ease of doing business to France (at 44), this does not mean that businesses are better off operating in Kingston rather than in Paris. Crime and macroeconomic imbalances-2 issues not directly studied in Doing Business-make Jamaica a less attractive destination for investment. But a high ranking on the ease of doing business does mean that the government has created a regulatory environment conducive to the operation of business. Often, improvements on the Doing Business indicators proxy for broader reforms to laws and institutions, which affect more than the administrative procedures and the time and cost to comply with business regulation. TABLE 1.2 Top 30 economies on the ease of doing business 1 New Zealand 2 Singapore 3 United States 4 Canada 5 Norway 6 Australia 7 Hong Kong, China 8 Denmark 9 United Kingdom 10 Japan 11 Ireland 12 Iceland 13 Finland 14 Sweden 15 Lithuania 16 Estonia 17 Switzerland 18 Belgium 19 Germany 20 Thailand 21 Malaysia 22 Puerto Rico 23 Mauritius 24 Netherlands 25 Chile 26 Latvia Note: The rankings for all economies are benchmarked to January 2005 and reported in the Country tables. The ease of doing business averages country rankings across the 10 topics covered in Doing Business in 2006. This year's rankings are not comparable to last year's as three new sets of indicators-on dealing with licenses, paying taxes and trading across borders-have been included. See the Data notes for details. Source: Doing Business database. Nice update on Hernando De Soto's "The Other Path" and "The Mystery of Capital". Lee From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 05:34:11 2006 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 06:34:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extreme Intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d71341e0608032234s15889a46x97cacb3a3a7dc224@mail.gmail.com> On 8/4/06, Lee Corbin wrote: > > If you and Russell are right in your negative assessments, that in > itself is quite remarkable: To wit, that no matter how intelligent a > human being could be, it would not be possible for him to complete this > task in the allotted time. (Almost every sentence with a "no matter how" > or an "every" is pretty remarkable, if true.) No matter how intelligent a human being could be, it would not be possible for him to summon a demon by chanting words in Latin, determine the Earth's velocity relative to the luminiferous ether, foretell your future from your star sign, mold granite with his bare hands, or transform a road into a toad by changing the first letter of its name. Do you find these statements remarkable? Consider the admittedly far more abstract task of outlining a proof > of Fermat's Last Theorem that human mathematicians of 1970 could > have used to construct an actual proof. I dare say that there exists > a two-page description that the 1970 mathematicians could have read > and understood, a description that would have allowed them a straight > path to a proof along the 1994 lines that they could have implemented > in a few months. I dare say there exists such, too. Wouldn't surprise me if an IQ 300 mathematician starting in 1970 could have found it by 1971, even. Finding a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is, after all, in the NP category - that is, at the most trivial difficulty level. That says nothing about how hard problems must be solved. But I do think that there exists a 15,000 word outline of how to build > a nuclear power plant. So you are saying that no conceivable human would > likely stumble upon that description. There does indeed exist a short description of how to build a nuclear power plant. There does not exist a short description of how to magically generate or verify such by pure armchair thought, because that's not a property of the words; it's a property of the real world, so there's no substitute for actually doing the lab work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Fri Aug 4 06:38:31 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 08:38:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Accelerated wound healing by the body electric References: <20060801225800.58215.qmail@web60514.mail.yahoo.com><015401c6b725$64a2ed70$c2911f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Message-ID: <000301c6b790$9b09eb50$4eba1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> From: "BillK" He wrote that letter in German, so we are working with a translation. "Jedenfalls bin ich ?berzeugt, dass der nicht w?rfelt". At any rate, I am convinced that He does not throw dice. Albert Einstein once noted in a letter to George Seldes, 'Many things which go under my name are badly translated from the German or are invented by other people.' [...] # Perfect. Thanks. See below how Dirac [1] supports Einstein's 'ignorance interpretation' of qm. For a different opinion see [2]. s. [1] "This statistical interpretation is now universally accepted as the best possible interpretation for quantum mechanics, even though many people are unhappy with it. People had got used to the determinism of the last century, where the present determines the future completely, and they now have to get used to a different situation in which the present only gives one information of a statistical nature about the future. A good many people find this unpleasant; Einstein has always objected to it. The way he expressed it was: 'The good God does not play with dice'. Schroedinger also did not like the statistical interpretation and tried for many years to find an interpretation involving determinism for his waves. But it was not successful as a general method. I must say that I also do not like indeterminism. I have to accept it because it is certainly the best that we can do with our present knowledge. One can always hope that there will be future developments which will lead to a drastically different theory from the present quantum mechanics and for which there may be a partial return of determinism. However, so long as one keeps to the present formalism, one has to have this indeterminism." (P.A.M. Dirac, 'The Development Of Quantum Mechanics', 1974) [2] "In a non-deterministic world, probability has nothing to do with incomplete knowledge. Quantum mechanics is the first example in human experience where probabilities play an essential role even when there is nothing to be ignorant about." (D. Mermin) From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 07:21:27 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 09:21:27 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] TransVision06 in Second Life Message-ID: <470a3c520608040021ocdc6b11o1e8cc9b79bf2c15f@mail.gmail.com> The TransVision 2006 annual conference of the World Transhumanist Association, Helsinki 17-19 August 2006, organized by the WTA and the Finnish Transhumanist Association, will be open to remote visitors in the virtual reality world of Second Life. http://uvvy.com/index.php/TransVision06_in_SL From amaraa at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 06:50:39 2006 From: amaraa at gmail.com (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:50:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0608032139s435be1a3x8219a21de5315fd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006801c6b792$4c40c820$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> Emlyn, great to find another "real-timer," I like to call us. It's increasingly difficult for me to relate to the "old-timers" (email users) and have to spell out words - have you noticed? Skype me at "amaraangelica" any time. - AA From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 15:06:04 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 17:06:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: KurzweilAI: Transhumanists stage 'mixed reality' event In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c520608040806n69da3cf3q77bf69b89fd77efe@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Date: Aug 4, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: KurzweilAI: Transhumanists stage 'mixed reality' event To: futuretagpost at googlegroups.com, wta-talk at transhumanism.org, extropy-chat at extropy.org KurzweilAI.net, August 4, 2006 - Transhumanists stage 'mixed reality' event - Virtual-world users of Second Life will be able to participate in the TransVision 2006 annual conference of the World Transhumanist Association in Helsinki on August 17-19, 2006. The theme of the conference will be Emerging Technologies of Human Enhancement. From eugen at leitl.org Fri Aug 4 19:57:51 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:57:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <006801c6b792$4c40c820$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> References: <710b78fc0608032139s435be1a3x8219a21de5315fd4@mail.gmail.com> <006801c6b792$4c40c820$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> Message-ID: <20060804195751.GQ14701@leitl.org> On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 02:50:39AM -0400, Amara D. Angelica wrote: > Emlyn, great to find another "real-timer," I like to call us. It's If you email is not realtime, you're doing it wrong(tm). The advantage of an email exchange over an reflector vs. IM is that 1) you don't see the other party type 2) messages arrive <1 s 3) there's spam filtering 4) it's self-archived, in a web/world visible format 5) I get to used my favourite text editor 6) quite a few other things. I can type almost as fast as I can talk, and I don't get to keep searchable transcripts of audio, not quite yet. Emlyns other points are all very good. > increasingly difficult for me to relate to the "old-timers" (email users) > and have to spell out words - have you noticed? Skype me at "amaraangelica" I'm not buying Sapir-Whorf for a moment, but you're playing with fire there. > any time. - AA -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From amaraa at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 21:06:19 2006 From: amaraa at gmail.com (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 17:06:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <20060804195751.GQ14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: <021701c6b809$d5981c50$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> Hi, Eugen. It's a bit hard to explain, in this old-timer medium, what it's like to be in *real* real time :) . For me, using Skype, and other real-time tools, is similar to the exhilaration I felt when I first used email (in the 70s on Arpanet) and "computer conferencing" instead of letters and meetings, and when I first browsed the Web in 1993 instead of libraries. Wow! I mostly use Skype in text chat mode (which is self-archiving, but not via Google Desktop Search yet, and there's no spam, btw), jumping to simultaneous voice when needed, or video cam, or an instant voice conference call, or sending files, or doing a Skypecast to 100 people, etc. (I just started using Dragon NaturallySpeaking 9 Preferred, so I can create text at high speed right into the Skype window). Skype allows me to work at home transparently, "megatasking" (as I see the next step beyond wimpy multitasking) multiple projects at random hours of the night with people around the world on tight deadlines. That was formerly impossible for me to do with emails, which can take hours for people to respond to and don't allow for quickly dealing with problems interactively or spontaneous communication from a distance. Not sure how the Whorfian hypothesis fits in (it's probably true: emoticons and text abbreviations change how u think, if that's what u mean -- it seems to speed things up) or how I'm playing with fire, but it's sure a lot of fun! -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:58 PM To: amaraa at gmail.com; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 02:50:39AM -0400, Amara D. Angelica wrote: > Emlyn, great to find another "real-timer," I like to call us. It's If you email is not realtime, you're doing it wrong(tm). The advantage of an email exchange over an reflector vs. IM is that 1) you don't see the other party type 2) messages arrive <1 s 3) there's spam filtering 4) it's self-archived, in a web/world visible format 5) I get to used my favourite text editor 6) quite a few other things. I can type almost as fast as I can talk, and I don't get to keep searchable transcripts of audio, not quite yet. Emlyns other points are all very good. > increasingly difficult for me to relate to the "old-timers" (email > users) and have to spell out words - have you noticed? Skype me at "amaraangelica" I'm not buying Sapir-Whorf for a moment, but you're playing with fire there. > any time. - AA From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Fri Aug 4 20:54:09 2006 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:54:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Entropia Universe Message-ID: <380-2200685420549453@M2W033.mail2web.com> http://entropiauniverse.com/ "About The Entropia Universe is a massive online Virtual Universe. Set in a distant Sci-Fi future, participants assume the roles of colonists who must develop the untamed planet of Calypso. Populated with fierce and dangerous creatures, the perilous wilderness on Calypso is also rich in minerals and ore, both of which can be a lucrative source of income for would-be colonists." Why not an extropiauniverse? Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From amaraa at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 02:55:21 2006 From: amaraa at gmail.com (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:55:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <44D40458.7050705@goldenfuture.net> Message-ID: <02f401c6b83a$97fafc60$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> Wow: "Grognard" -- a zowie new word for me (http://www.alanemrich.com/Writing_Archive_pages/grognard.htm)! Is this a great list, or what? OK, I think it's called "loss leader" in the marketing game. Give away free international phone calls/chats to the 100 million users worldwide, BUT only between Skypers. Calls to "old timers" (the great unwashed masses huddled in the musty vaults of non-real-time) are still way cheaper than old-timer phone companies: http://skype.com/products/priceoverview/. BTW, you can make free calls via within the US and Canada until the end of 2006. Skype on, Grognard! -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Bloch [mailto:transhumanist at goldenfuture.net] Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:37 PM To: amaraa at gmail.com; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now Forgive an old Grognard like me, but how the hell do they stay in business if they don't charge anything? Joseph From transhumanist at goldenfuture.net Sat Aug 5 02:37:12 2006 From: transhumanist at goldenfuture.net (Joseph Bloch) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:37:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now In-Reply-To: <021701c6b809$d5981c50$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> References: <021701c6b809$d5981c50$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> Message-ID: <44D40458.7050705@goldenfuture.net> Forgive an old Grognard like me, but how the hell do they stay in business if they don't charge anything? Joseph Amara D. Angelica wrote: >Hi, Eugen. It's a bit hard to explain, in this old-timer medium, what it's >like to be in *real* real time :) . For me, using Skype, and other real-time >tools, is similar to the exhilaration I felt when I first used email (in the >70s on Arpanet) and "computer conferencing" instead of letters and meetings, >and when I first browsed the Web in 1993 instead of libraries. Wow! I mostly >use Skype in text chat mode (which is self-archiving, but not via Google >Desktop Search yet, and there's no spam, btw), jumping to simultaneous voice >when needed, or video cam, or an instant voice conference call, or sending >files, or doing a Skypecast to 100 people, etc. (I just started using Dragon >NaturallySpeaking 9 Preferred, so I can create text at high speed right into >the Skype window). Skype allows me to work at home transparently, >"megatasking" (as I see the next step beyond wimpy multitasking) multiple >projects at random hours of the night with people around the world on tight >deadlines. That was formerly impossible for me to do with emails, which can >take hours for people to respond to and don't allow for quickly dealing with >problems interactively or spontaneous communication from a distance. Not >sure how the Whorfian hypothesis fits in (it's probably true: emoticons and >text abbreviations change how u think, if that's what u mean -- it seems to >speed things up) or how I'm playing with fire, but it's sure a lot of fun! > >-----Original Message----- >From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl >Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:58 PM >To: amaraa at gmail.com; ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Email is for the old folk now > >On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 02:50:39AM -0400, Amara D. Angelica wrote: > > > >>Emlyn, great to find another "real-timer," I like to call us. It's >> >> > >If you email is not realtime, you're doing it wrong(tm). The advantage of an >email exchange over an reflector vs. IM is that 1) you don't see the other >party type 2) messages arrive <1 s >3) there's spam filtering 4) it's self-archived, in a web/world visible >format 5) I get to used my favourite text editor >6) quite a few other things. > >I can type almost as fast as I can talk, and I don't get to keep searchable >transcripts of audio, not quite yet. Emlyns other points are all very good. > > > >>increasingly difficult for me to relate to the "old-timers" (email >>users) and have to spell out words - have you noticed? Skype me at >> >> >"amaraangelica" > >I'm not buying Sapir-Whorf for a moment, but you're playing with fire there. > > > >>any time. - AA >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > From amara at amara.com Sat Aug 5 05:59:00 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:59:00 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Music for little transhumans Message-ID: http://www.scq.ubc.ca/?p=160 HARMONY IS ALWAYS HERE By David Ng {begin quote} I'm not entirely sure if I became a rational scientific person by nature or nurture. Whether it is genetic or whether it is the obvious result of too many years of study. Whatever the case may be, I am a slave to my curiosity, and sometimes I swear I bleed science. To me, everything needs an answer, deserves an explanation, or craves a solution. Even Ben. And it would not be a stretch to say that I have known Ben for his entire life. In fact, I was even there at his birth - an intense, wet and happy event that will forever resonate in my head. Not all that surprising when you consider that Ben is only 12 months old and also my son. And as a father, I know that children are truly marvelous creatures - they are like noisy habits, capable of providing endless emotion, delivering that bullet of equal parts joy, worry and fatigue. They are also mysterious to me. Not in the sense that being a parent fills me with fear, but more in the sense that I am often in wonder at how perfect these small beings really are - a testament, if you will, to the marvel of biology. I mean really, what exactly makes them do the things that they do? Take music, for instance - it reaches out to Ben. And for whatever reason, certain songs can even elicit specific fervent reactions. Although the examples seem to change weekly, currently they include: Vertigo by U2 (spontaneous heading bobbing - head banging really), Won't Give In by the Finn Brothers (spontaneous twirling/cuddling), and the Dora The Explorer Theme Song (spontaneous manic hip swaying) - all in a child that is a little over one year old. [...] {end quote} See the article for the rest -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Looking up gives light, although at first it makes you dizzy." --Mevlana Rumi From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 07:41:45 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:41:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Entropia Universe In-Reply-To: <380-2200685420549453@M2W033.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200685420549453@M2W033.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520608050041l361062fpd90306488c0e20d5@mail.gmail.com> Hi Natasha, I have written something on EU here: http://uvvy.com/index.php/Entropia_Universe EU is interesting at the beginning but becomes dull after a while because there is not much to do besides shooting wildlife and looking for valuable minerals. By "an extropiauniverse" I assume you mean a massive online virtual universe with some similarities to EU, but based on transhumanist ideas and vision of the cosmic future of our and other species. I am in a group that is developing precisely that. The project is at an advanced conceptual definition stage and we are set to begin soon with detailed design and, of course, looking for investors. I cannot give too many details here now but I plan to announce the project in my talk "Transhumanism in the Metaverse" at Transvision in Helsinki. G. On 8/4/06, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > http://entropiauniverse.com/ > > "About > The Entropia Universe is a massive online Virtual Universe. Set in a > distant Sci-Fi future, participants assume the roles of colonists who must > develop the untamed planet of Calypso. Populated with fierce and dangerous > creatures, the perilous wilderness on Calypso is also rich in minerals and > ore, both of which can be a lucrative source of income for would-be > colonists." > > Why not an extropiauniverse? > > Natasha From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 15:21:22 2006 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:51:22 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Health data In-Reply-To: <44933B93.40204@pobox.com> References: <61385.86.138.88.108.1150484050.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> <20060616220726.GB28766@ofb.net> <0E6C82C3-FC4F-40CF-8BD3-0B9A9B24B30C@antipope.org> <44933B93.40204@pobox.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0608050821o47777085h212af9d85b197f87@mail.gmail.com> Here (Australia), if I want to see a doctor for free I might have to search the phonebook a bit (actually I know a couple off the top of my head), or I can go to an expensive GP and pay maybe A$20 for the privelege. Never have to wait though. Jodie and I had both our kids in the public hospital system. First time was pretty mediocre, second time was great. Both were high intervention births (cezareans, first one my daughter was in intensive care for a few days). All of this, and the prenatal classes and postnatal support, cost me nothing. Well, actually we had to pay for coffees and stuff in the hospital cafeteria, but that's it. Long live socialised medicine! Emlyn On 17/06/06, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote: > Charlie Stross wrote: > > > > Oh yeah. Last time I had to go see my GP I was sitting in his > > examining room all of five hours after I picked up the phone. I keep > > *hearing* about the alleged one year waiting times, but I've never > > met anyone who actually *did* have to wait a year -- or even a week > > -- to see their GP. > > Thanks for the data - always good to hear from the front lines. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * Music downloads are online again! From amara at amara.com Sat Aug 5 15:28:20 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:28:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gilgamesh Movie? Message-ID: The following came from a 2003 story. Does anyone here know what is the status of the Gilgamesh movie? --------------------- http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/film.htm Beni Atoori is a Hollywood filmmaker and President of Stonelock Pictures in Los Angeles. He is producing the ancient epic of Gilgamesh for theatrical release, starring Michael Madsen, Omar Sharif, Billy Zane and Robert Davi. A cultural partnership has been formed between this production company and the Baghdad Museum Project, bringing to our efforts the visualization resources of a motion picture that recreates life in ancient Mesopotamia. The filmmaking process itself will explore how culture speaks to modern dilemmas. Stonelock Pictures is also the Baghdad Museum Project's first corporate sponsor, pledging $1.5 million toward our outreach campaign for community cultural development. This will be an omnimedia campaign, involving television, radio, print, internet and live events. Gilgamesh will be directed by Academy Award winner Roger Christian, who earned an Oscar for his innovative work as Art Director on the original Star Wars film, A New Hope. As Art Director and Production Designer, he went on to apply his eye for convincing detail and "used realism" to the original Alien film, for which he received an Academy Award nomination. His film, The Dollar Bottom, meanwhile had won an Academy Award for Best Dramatic Short. Roger then wrote and directed the medieval fantasy Black Angel, and has since helmed eight more motion pictures including the critically acclaimed Nostradamus starring Julia Ormond, F. Murray Abraham and Rutger Hauer. The historical biography, produced for $4.2 million, earned $89 million worldwide before video and DVD sales. Roger recently again worked alongside his old colleague George Lucas, this time as Lucas' second unit director on the Star Wars prequel, The Phantom Menace. After 20 years, he returned not only to the world of Star Wars but to location shooting in the North African deserts, where he had helped bring the first Star Wars film to life and where he will now oversee the construction of Gilgamesh's domain, the ancient city of Uruk. "I like the Baghdad Museum Project because of my own Assyrian heritage," says Stonelock Pictures' Beni Atoori. "I feel like I'm doing my part to help preserve the Assyrians' cultural property," he says. The production of Gilgamesh has been his lifelong ambition and passion. Now production is slated to begin at the end of summer in Morocco. "We're taking mankind's oldest known written epic and making it a living document," says Atoori. -------- Amara From atomictiki at yahoo.com Sat Aug 5 18:31:27 2006 From: atomictiki at yahoo.com (P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 11:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gilgamesh Movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060805183127.44003.qmail@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.stonelockpictures.com/production.html As far as I can tell, reading between the Hollywood lines of the above link, they had a wish-fulfillment start date of April 2005 that was not met. Since it is not mentioned anywhere that counts (like www.imdb.com ), I suspect that actors and/or financing fell through at the last minute, or more likely, the project was never really all was in place in the first place. Financing and casting projects like this is akin to the guy on Venice Beach who juggles a bowling ball, a running chain saw and an apple, while eating the apple. Few people can do it and more often than not, it all ends up falling apart at a producer's feet. It also seems, from other links, to have been turned into a direct to DVD release as well, which means they couldn't get a theatrical distributor (to show it in movie theaters), which means their financing and casting might have changed yet again. So now the production is in eternal "pre-production.' But it may still get made. In Hollywood, much stranger things have happened. PJ Amara Graps wrote: The following came from a 2003 story. Does anyone here know what is the status of the Gilgamesh movie? --------------------- http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/film.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Aug 6 10:29:38 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 12:29:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gilgamesh Movie? Message-ID: P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann atomictiki at yahoo.com : >It also seems, from other links, to have been turned into a direct to >DVD release as well, which means they couldn't get a theatrical >distributor (to show it in movie theaters), which means their >financing and casting might have changed yet again. So now the >production is in eternal "pre-production.' But it may still get made. >In Hollywood, much stranger things have happened. http://www.stonelockpictures.com/production.html Thanks alot, Patricia, for the Hollywood insider information. :-) The cast of actors looks great, and that little trailer makes my mouth water. I hope it makes it out soon. Amara From amara at amara.com Sun Aug 6 14:05:37 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:05:37 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Empathic Painting Message-ID: Seen on inkycircus (http://inkycircus.com/) http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_39986.shtml Scientists develop artwork that changes to suit your mood From the web page Computer scientists from Bath and Boston have developed electronic artwork that changes to match the mood of the person who is looking at it. By: University of Bath Published: Aug 3, 2006 {begin quote} Using images collected through a web cam, special software recognises eight key facial features that characterise the emotional state of the person viewing the artwork. It then adapts the colours and brush strokes of the digital artwork to suit the changing mood of the viewer. {end quote} Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute, Tucson From atomictiki at yahoo.com Sun Aug 6 21:58:01 2006 From: atomictiki at yahoo.com (P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Laughter IS the best medicine Message-ID: <20060806215801.21019.qmail@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From the H+ perspective, we clearly better start laughing more, to get those endorphins and HGH. From the storyteller's perspective, what I find the most interesting about the entire concept is that what is perceived as "funny" is completely subjective, where as what is perceived as tragic is generally objective. Almost everyone in the world finds the same things sad or dramatic. But people disagree about what is funny. That's why people either get or don't get Monty Python or Mel Brooks, but they all get Hamlet. And yet, comedy and tragedy are all about the same things -- dramatic conflicts. Just the point of view is different. So why do we see them differently? Or maybe, simply, Sir Donald Wolfit or Edmund Gwenn said it best on their deathbed (both are claimed to have said it -- there's a comedy skit in that controversy, IMHO), "Dying is easy. Comedy is hard." PJ http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1942224&page=1 Laughter May Indeed Be the Best Medicine Study Shows Laughing Changes Blood Chemistry, Helps Protect Against Disease, Depression May 10, 2006 -- - Let that belly laugh out. New research shows that it can literally change your blood chemistry and help protect you from disease and depression. For several years now, scientists have suspected that "mirthful" laughter, as distinguished from nervous or self-conscious chuckles, can help the immune system and even fight heart disease, but serious data have been lacking. Now, researchers at Loma Linda University in Southern California say they have found a physiological change that occurs when people laugh, and it lasts long after the laughter subsides. Laughter, according to the scientists, stimulates the production of beta-endorphins, also known as the body's own morphine, and human growth hormone, which helps tune up the immune system. It's a small study, and not likely to be embraced by everyone, but lead researcher Lee Berk says it's very convincing, and the changes take place "at the chemical level." The rewards, including the "feel good" attitude resulting from the increased supply of endorphins, can last up to 24 hours, he adds. The research, which was presented at a recent meeting of the American Physiological Society called Experimental Biology 2006, is consistent with findings at a number of other institutions. Cardiologists at the University of Maryland Medical Center reported a few years ago, for example, that their research showed that an active sense of humor could help prevent heart disease, but the reason why was not yet clear. Last year, they expanded on their earlier findings and reported that laughter has a direct impact on the function of blood vessels, allowing an increase in the flow of blood. Some of the current research, oddly enough, grew out of efforts to understand why exercise is so important. Berk, for example, got into the field more than three decades ago while studying the impact of exercise on stress. He found that people who exercised regularly released endorphins at a different rate than those who didn't. "I thought, how interesting, here's a behavior that actually produced an effect on the human brain," he says. That led to another question. If exercise can do it, can other positive activities have a similar impact? To find out, he needed some kind of universal, positive experience. "So I thought, what's universal? Laughter is universal. And mirthful, happy laughter is a very positive emotional experience," he says. He set out to find out if laughter could be as effective as exercise, but funding was hard to get, and experiments were costly because they required so much medical supervision. While he was "stumbling around without any money," as he puts it, he got a surprise phone call from novelist Norman Cousins. "I don't know how he found out about what we were trying to do, but he said he wanted to come to Loma Linda and see me," Berk says. Cousins had nearly died from ankylosing spondylitis, a painful rheumatic disease, but made a remarkable recovery that he attributed to changing from a negative to a positive attitude, partly by watching funny movies. "He asked what it would take to do the research," Berk recalls. "I said money. He said how much. So I gave him a figure and he said who do I make the check out to." Berk was off and running and published his first findings in 1985. But some of his most important research was revealed in 2001 when he and several colleagues reported on a study of heart patients at Loma Linda University. The 48 patients were divided into two groups, one of which watched 30 minutes of comedy every day, in addition to their regular cardiac care program. The other group didn't see the movies. The patients were followed for one year, and the results were dramatic. "Heart attacks diminished drastically in the group that watched the comedies," Berk says. Other symptoms improved to the point that medications were reduced. Only two of the patients who watched the movies had heart attacks during the experiment, compared to 10 who did not see the movies. "It blew my mind," Berk says. Cousins, who had made it possible for Berk to continue his inquiries, wasn't around for the latest result. The two talked for the last time in 1990, when Berk brought Cousins up to date on his work. "Norman died two weeks later," Berk says. Berk and several colleagues continued the line of research, resulting in the most recent findings. They recruited 16 healthy males and divided them into two groups. Blood was drawn from all the subjects before the experiment, four times during the hour-long video, and three times afterward. Members of one group watched a funny movie of their choice, but the second group didn't get to see the film. The results, Berk says, were dramatic. Even before the movie began, and long after it ended, the blood chemistry in the group watching the movie changed. Beta-endorphins, the so called body's own morphine, rose by 27 percent, and human growth hormone rose by 87 percent compared to the group that didn't see the movie. That's significant, Berk says, because of the role both those substances play. "Endorphins are the stuff that make you feel good," he says. "It's the stuff that's related to orgasmic response. It's the runner's high." It also slows down the heart rate, reduces blood pressure and opens air passages. Human growth hormone "cranks up at night, when you and I are asleep," Berk says. "It's one of the hormones that helps re-tune a lot of things. And it tunes up and optimizes the immune system." Thus, his findings indicate there is a physiological basis for the good things that come from laughing. Small studies, to be sure, and much more research needs to be done, but funding will continue to be tight. That's partly because you can't put laughter in a bottle, patent it and sell it for a profit. It's enough to make you cry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin.osborne at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 01:27:00 2006 From: kevin.osborne at gmail.com (kevin.osborne) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:27:00 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Census Declaration - Transhumanism as a Religion? Message-ID: <3642969c0608061827r63d5f99dr9502b86d7b94dfb2@mail.gmail.com> Hi All I'm about to complete my census declaration for the Australian national census tomorrow, and was wondering whether there is a concerted effort by Singulatarians/Futurists/Transhumanists to identify themselves as collective. I guess you can compare it to the 'Jedi' census-hacking thats been going on for years. I'm quite happy to complete my census declaration of religious affiliation as atheist but thought maybe we might be exploiting the chance to come to the notice of policy makers and/or the media by entering a moniker-of-choice suited to our little future-fetish. While I'm not the biggiest fan of 'Transhumanist' as a term (choosing to view 'being human' as more of an ideal, and less a biological birthright, I think we're only going to become *more* human as time progresses) I'm more than happy to enter it if that's the term we as a collective associate with the most; simply because I'd rather have , for example, 1500 australian transhumanists on the polls than 500 each of singulatarian/futurist/transhumanist. So which term? And would it be extra cheeky to list it as my Ethnic origin as well? From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 04:12:42 2006 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:42:42 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Census Declaration - Transhumanism as a Religion? In-Reply-To: <3642969c0608061827r63d5f99dr9502b86d7b94dfb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0608061827r63d5f99dr9502b86d7b94dfb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0608062112k1502ffd6ud05036d1ff68650@mail.gmail.com> Transhumanism is definitely not a religion, imo! It'd be fun to fill it in that way, but it's counterproductive I think, because we really need to steer clear of being seen as religious as much as possible (too much incorrect association with that already). I'll be putting down Atheist. Actually, ethnic group is probably closer to the thing to use ;-) Emlyn On 07/08/06, kevin.osborne wrote: > > Hi All > > I'm about to complete my census declaration for the Australian > national census tomorrow, and was wondering whether there is a > concerted effort by Singulatarians/Futurists/Transhumanists to > identify themselves as collective. > > I guess you can compare it to the 'Jedi' census-hacking thats been > going on for years. > > I'm quite happy to complete my census declaration of religious > affiliation as atheist but thought maybe we might be exploiting the > chance to come to the notice of policy makers and/or the media by > entering a moniker-of-choice suited to our little future-fetish. > > While I'm not the biggiest fan of 'Transhumanist' as a term (choosing > to view 'being human' as more of an ideal, and less a biological > birthright, I think we're only going to become *more* human as time > progresses) I'm more than happy to enter it if that's the term we as a > collective associate with the most; simply because I'd rather have , > for example, 1500 australian transhumanists on the polls than 500 each > of singulatarian/futurist/transhumanist. > > So which term? And would it be extra cheeky to list it as my Ethnic > origin as well? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * Music downloads are online again! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Aug 7 19:58:18 2006 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:58:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Census Declaration - Transhumanism as a Religion? In-Reply-To: <3642969c0608061827r63d5f99dr9502b86d7b94dfb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0608061827r63d5f99dr9502b86d7b94dfb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DB9A12C-0E0E-49DF-8736-2BF9D554D0BE@bonfireproductions.com> Personally, I don't think you should, even though the modern context and use of the word "religion" could be interpreted in that manner. Seeing that the Latin prefix of religion is rooted somehow in "supernatural" and "superstition". It's like lumping Atheism into religion. People that want to keep clear of a certain mess through choice are simply redefined by mess- participants as another form of mess. Then the meme-pool needs cleaning. Ultimately, I'm sure that there are people that view it as such, it is a personal choice. Philosophy? Yes. Religion? No. Cheers, Bret On Aug 6, 2006, at 9:27 PM, kevin.osborne wrote: > Hi All > > I'm about to complete my census declaration for the Australian > national census tomorrow, and was wondering whether there is a > concerted effort by Singulatarians/Futurists/Transhumanists to > identify themselves as collective. > > I guess you can compare it to the 'Jedi' census-hacking thats been > going on for years. > > I'm quite happy to complete my census declaration of religious > affiliation as atheist but thought maybe we might be exploiting the > chance to come to the notice of policy makers and/or the media by > entering a moniker-of-choice suited to our little future-fetish. > > While I'm not the biggiest fan of 'Transhumanist' as a term (choosing > to view 'being human' as more of an ideal, and less a biological > birthright, I think we're only going to become *more* human as time > progresses) I'm more than happy to enter it if that's the term we as a > collective associate with the most; simply because I'd rather have , > for example, 1500 australian transhumanists on the polls than 500 each > of singulatarian/futurist/transhumanist. > > So which term? And would it be extra cheeky to list it as my Ethnic > origin as well? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From mark at permanentend.org Mon Aug 7 22:58:21 2006 From: mark at permanentend.org (Mark Walker) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:58:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft Paper:Cognitive Enhancement and the Identity Objection References: <8CF6A92CB628444FB3C757618CD280398F1DE8@exbe1.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu> Message-ID: <04a201c6ba74$fb694270$9a00a8c0@old> For what it is worth, I've put an early draft of my paper, "Cognitive Enhancement and the Identity Objection" here: http://www.permanentend.org/walker/identity.html . The paper describes a couple of experiments we could try today to create posthumans, and discusses a possible objection to the idea that we might have a right to become posthuman. Cheers, Mark Dr. Mark Walker Department of Philosophy University Hall 310 McMaster University 1280 Main Street West Hamilton, Ontario, L8S 4K1 Canada From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 19:40:23 2006 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:40:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] clinical trials for stem cell spinal cord injury Message-ID: In some ways it's old news, but it's good news, hopeful news, extropic news. One thing, if and when it proves successful, the whole Luddite stem cell obstructionism is going to suffer a crushing blow. That's good, hopeful, and extropic as well. Human Tests of Embryonic Stem Cell Treatments Planned A California biotech company expects to begin trials of a treatment for spinal cord injuries next year. http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17256&ch=biotech&sc=&pg=1 -- Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Aug 8 21:25:35 2006 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 17:25:35 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? Message-ID: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> I'd like advice on software for creating brainstorming mind maps. For this project, I am placing design style just a wee bit over functionality. Can anyone suggest what software might work for me? Here are some I am thinking about: MindGenius brainbloom >> http://www.mindgenius.com/website/presenter.aspx?type=doc&uri=/home.htm ConceptDraw MINDMAP 4 http://www.conceptdraw.com/en/products/mindmap/main.php?glu Mindjet http://www.mindjet.com/us/?google=mind_mapping_software visual Mind http://www.visual-mind.com/wv.htm?0015 Thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 22:11:31 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:11:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> References: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On 8/8/06, nvitamore wrote: > I'd like advice on software for creating brainstorming mind maps. For this > project, I am placing design style just a wee bit over functionality. Can > anyone suggest what software might work for me? Here are some I am > thinking about: > > MindGenius brainbloom >> > http://www.mindgenius.com/website/presenter.aspx?type=doc&uri=/home.htm > > ConceptDraw MINDMAP 4 > http://www.conceptdraw.com/en/products/mindmap/main.php?glu > > Mindjet > http://www.mindjet.com/us/?google=mind_mapping_software > > visual Mind > http://www.visual-mind.com/wv.htm?0015 > Check out FreeMind Available for Windows, Mac and Linux. And it's free! :) BillK From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 02:18:29 2006 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:48:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] clinical trials for stem cell spinal cord injury In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0608081918n1dc03c4en349c08dc5940403a@mail.gmail.com> It wasn't old news for me, thanks Jeff. There's a big difference between "wow we've got this great theory about using stem cells to treat spinal damage" and "Human Tests of Embryonic Stem Cell Treatments Planned". Excellent. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * Music downloads are online again! On 09/08/06, Jeff Davis wrote: > > In some ways it's old news, but it's good news, hopeful news, extropic > news. > > One thing, if and when it proves successful, the whole Luddite stem > cell obstructionism is going to suffer a crushing blow. That's good, > hopeful, and extropic as well. > > Human Tests of Embryonic Stem Cell Treatments Planned > > A California biotech company expects to begin trials of a treatment > for spinal cord injuries next year. > > > > http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17256&ch=biotech&sc=&pg=1 > > -- > Best, Jeff Davis > > "Everything's hard till you > know how to do it." > Ray Charles > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.dugger at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 04:16:56 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:16:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0608082116m5fd62af0sce80011b6d46c29d@mail.gmail.com> Tuesday, 8 August 2006 I've used both Mind Manager from MindJet and Freemind for work and personal projects. At work, I've used MM for project management and that works quite well. (At least one division of SGI uses MM for the same task.) It worked well for this, but I had problems because no one else on the project used mind maps at all! I also kept a master to-do list for all of 2005 with MM, used it to analyze and modify perl scripts when I didn't know the language, and a few other tasks. Mind Manager has a slightly better feel to it, integrates with MS Office products, has better style support, filters, handles large maps well, and crashes less often than does Freemind. MM also has a very high price tag: US$350 unless you get an educational discount. Freemind, which I now use at work for cirriculum development, technical writing, and private project tracking, does perhaps two-thirds of what Mind Manager can do. It runs pretty well, and if you get all of the neat plug-ins, it might do about three-quarters of what M.M. can do. Freemind also has an open source advantage. Zero cost, and some very neat things can get built from it. For example, there exists a script to import one's del.icio.us bookmarks into a mind map, open source wikis that incorporate freemind maps, and even a tool to turn freemind maps into flash animated mind maps! Oh, and freemind can import Mind Manager maps. You can find my bookmarked links about these over at del.icio.us/jay.dugger/freemind and at del.icio.us/jay.dugger/mindmap. In short, I make two recommendations. Mind mapping software works better for me than paper; use software. Try freemind first to see if it mind mapping improves your work. Switch to MM if and only if you must, for Office integration or if the lacks of freemind irritate you, or if you can cheaply get it. Mind mapping software has limits and drawbacks. Collaborative mind mapping posed challenges for me, esp. with the expensive Mind Manager. Even freemind has this problem to some extent. You can spend more time explaining the technique than working on the project! Also, take all the claims about saving time with a grain of salt. I find that mind mapping takes longer than usually claimed. I usually spend more time thinking about the mind maps than I would without them. Most of this is not just map-fiddling. That's more or less automated on the machines I use through programs like ActiveWords (another program I wish ran on Linux). I just spend more time thinking about the task with mind maps. Feature--not bug! It resembles using speech to text programs. My writing usually ends up better because it gets more of my attention. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From estropico at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 09:24:02 2006 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:24:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] ExtroBritannia's August event (and AGM) Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90608090224l7d7a7bddp1dde5dec9e3f83f0@mail.gmail.com> Our next event is scheduled for Saturday the 19th of August 2006 starting at 2pm at Conway Hall (Tower Room 1) in Holborn, London. The event is free and everyone is welcome. We are also holding our Annual General Meeting, at the same venue, starting at 11am. All members are invited and non-members are welcome. Dr M A Twyman on "Consciousness and the transhuman" Many of the long-term futurist scenarios frequently discussed by transhumanists touch upon questions of the nature of sentience. For example: Is uploading feasible, or even possible in principle? How might we assess the degree or type of sentience in a truly alien lifeform? Serious answers to these and other questions require recourse to scientific theories of the nature of consciousness and human sentience. Dr Twyman will briefly review the principal contemporary accounts of consciousness, and then describe their relevance to areas of particular interest to transhumanism, before leading discussion of the kinds of social and research policies which transhumanists should perhaps be advocating. CONWAY HALL 25 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4RL tel 020 7242 8032 www.conwayhall.org.uk Nearest tube: Holborn MAP http://tinyurl.com/8syus --- The ExtroBritannia mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia The ExtroBritannia Blog: http://www.extrobritannia.blogspot.com ExtroBritannia is the monthly public event of the UK Transhumanist Association: http://www.transhumanist.org.uk From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 18:51:41 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:51:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Six Places to Nuke When You're Serious Message-ID: <51ce64f10608081151j331f1b0cve4a05fa2368cb3c7@mail.gmail.com> Here is a recent blog post that I put some time into: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=120 I would prefer if you would put your reactions in the comments rather than here, to keep all the discussion in one place. Also, if you find it valuable, please click the digg link at the end and register for digg if you haven't already (it takes only two minutes). The point of this post, of course, is to get people thinking about large risks and strategies to mediate them. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From atomictiki at yahoo.com Thu Aug 10 20:59:46 2006 From: atomictiki at yahoo.com (P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] META - chat admin malfunction Message-ID: <20060810205946.3217.qmail@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi -- I'm posting this because I don't know who to contact now. I'm trying to change my chat email delivery address per your website instructions, but I got the below back instead. Would the appropriate person please contact me and walk me through it? Thanks so much! Patricia Mail Delivery System wrote: From: Mail Delivery System To: atomictiki at yahoo.com Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:53:00 -0400 This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: david at lucifer.com (ultimately generated from majordomo at extropy.org) unrouteable mail domain "lucifer.com" ------ This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. ------ Return-path: Received: from web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.207.64]) by dime9.dizinc.com with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1GBHWV-00013H-W8 for majordomo at extropy.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:53:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 14496 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Aug 2006 20:52:39 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1/m1NSvcc4YbsJ9M1vRkRFW+bpXQ4VuP2iBt74vEkMsjXjj2kp4UaPnAPzUrA75oluDFIki23sU6aQjjUHVZyBb830Y4TJchPsiIpw5uQa/NJlolyddQIHQhHDftQh31J/yl0mebDMHhmiEjfNf0uWkP3I3uJZRD0d0icbMoI94= ; Message-ID: <20060810205239.14494.qmail at web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.119.251.191] by web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:52:39 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann" Subject: changing email address, etc. To: majordomo at extropy.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1113549201-1155243159=:14492" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1113549201-1155243159=:14492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atomictiki at yahoo.com Thu Aug 10 21:04:14 2006 From: atomictiki at yahoo.com (P.J. Manney & E. Gruendemann) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] META - it isn't working... Message-ID: <20060810210414.23958.qmail@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I get nothing but bounces back or if I click on your new admin link, I get "Object not found." Please write me back at this address and walk me through it, because your links are not working. Thank you. PJ Patricia Manney and Eric Gruendemann Uncharted Entertainment 23210 Mariposa de Oro Malibu, CA 90265 W: (310) 317-1598 F: (310) 317-1599 atomictiki at yahoo.com or eric at unchartedentertainment.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 14:59:21 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:59:21 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] TransVision06 in Second Life Message-ID: <470a3c520608130759x6c7e4523vf5ac0bee3b240acd@mail.gmail.com> You can attend TransVision06 next week in Second Life. See http://uvvy.com/index.php/TransVision06_in_SL I recommend to test the video stream, and change / finetune your system configuration appropriately, before the beginning of the event. See the link above for instructions. G. From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Aug 13 16:43:21 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:43:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] META - it isn't working... In-Reply-To: <20060810210414.23958.qmail@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060810210414.23958.qmail@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060813114222.04555d80@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 04:04 PM 8/10/2006, Patricia wrote: >I get nothing but bounces back or if I click on your new admin link, I get >"Object not found." Please write me back at this address and walk me >through it, because your links are not working. Thank you. I emailed John at Ziaspace and he said he would contact you. Please let us know that all is working. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Sun Aug 13 21:36:51 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:36:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: optics, mirrors and flying frogs References: <380-220067427233236953@M2W023.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <000901c6bf20$98d0b070$b1ba1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Among professor (sir) Michael Berry's webpages (yes the man of the 'Berry phase' and of the 'quantum fractals') it is sometimes possible to find interesting images. http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/gallery.html But prof. Berry is also much interested in caustics, and in magic mirror images ... -papers (pdf) http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/berry383.pdf http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0512139 -images http://www.grand-illusions.com/magicmirror/magmir1.htm http://suhasinigururaja.blogspot.com/2006/08/talks-contd-makyoh-images.html http://www.docbug.com/Pictures/Makyoh/index.html Not to mention here that prof. Berry levitates frogs, and strawberries too -images, movies http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/froglev.html http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitation-more.html http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitation-movies.html -explanation here (pdf) http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/frog-ejp.pdf From scerir at libero.it Sun Aug 13 21:37:24 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:37:24 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: optics, mirrors and flying frogs References: <380-220067427233236953@M2W023.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <000a01c6bf20$abc941b0$b1ba1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Among professor (sir) Michael Berry's webpages (yes the man of the 'Berry phase' and of the 'quantum fractals') it is sometimes possible to find interesting images. http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/gallery.html But prof. Berry is also much interested in caustics, and in magic mirror images ... -papers (pdf) http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/berry383.pdf http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0512139 -images http://www.grand-illusions.com/magicmirror/magmir1.htm http://suhasinigururaja.blogspot.com/2006/08/talks-contd-makyoh-images.html http://www.docbug.com/Pictures/Makyoh/index.html Not to mention here that prof. Berry levitates frogs, and strawberries too -images, movies http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/froglev.html http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitation-more.html http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/levitation-movies.html -explanation here (pdf) http://www.hfml.science.ru.nl/frog-ejp.pdf From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Aug 14 00:03:27 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:03:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: Tinfoil Music on Transhumanism Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060813190214.05b3b9e8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Interview: http://music.tinfoil.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1611 Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Aug 14 14:14:49 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:14:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <5366105b0608082116m5fd62af0sce80011b6d46c29d@mail.gmail.co m> References: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> <5366105b0608082116m5fd62af0sce80011b6d46c29d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060814091239.02f109f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 11:16 PM 8/8/2006, Jay wrote: >Mind mapping software has limits and drawbacks. Collaborative mind >mapping posed challenges for me, esp. with the expensive Mind Manager. >Even freemind has this problem to some extent. You can spend more time >explaining the technique than working on the project! Also, take all >the claims about saving time with a grain of salt. I find that mind >mapping takes longer than usually claimed. I usually spend more time >thinking about the mind maps than I would without them. Most of this >is not just map-fiddling. That's more or less automated on the >machines I use through programs like ActiveWords (another program I >wish ran on Linux). I just spend more time thinking about the task >with mind maps. Feature--not bug! It resembles using speech to text >programs. My writing usually ends up better because it gets more of my >attention. This information is just what I needed. Thank you Jay! Natasha Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Aug 14 14:15:54 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:15:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <380-22006828212535781@M2W002.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060814091518.02e6f8e8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 05:11 PM 8/8/2006, Bill wrote: >Check out FreeMind > > >Available for Windows, Mac and Linux. And it's free! :) Okay - will do. Thanks! Natasha Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Aug 14 15:36:05 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:36:05 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? Message-ID: >I'd like advice on software for creating brainstorming mind maps. Hi Natasha, Resending a message I wrote May 8, 2006 to the wta-talk list under the subject title: "Advice Sought on Improving Reading and Studying Skills" Amara ------------------------------------------------------ Sean Cooney scooney at purdue.edu : Welcome Sean! >My goal is to reduce my studying time as much as possible without loss >of comprehension or retention. Those last two points are critical. I >am in a very technical field of study (molecular biology, biochemistry, >neurobiology). Thus, any reduction in studying time without maintaining >or improving comprehension and retention is pointless. A few weeks ago a friend introduced me to "mind mapping". I'd heard for years about it, but no one ever demonstrated its usefulness to me before. Since I'm wrestling with a particularly complex problem for one of my research problems ("the origin of water on Earth"), I thought I'd "map" it out. Now, I'm mapping out all of the arguments in the relevant papers this way, as well as my own work on the subject, and I'm very happy with how I'm able to follow the arguments using this tool. I think that "mind mapping" is an excellent study and note-taking tool. The following graphic is a real example of my breaking down the arguments in one recent paper on this topic using mind mapping: http://www.amara.com/ASourceofWateronEarth.jpg I don't agree with all of the authors' arguments, but this way helps me to follow them. The little circles represent collapsed subjects. The icon of a notepad/pen tells me that there is a note, in my case, a reference. There are arrows to link many of the arguments to the constraints, but the lines are barely visible; the software doesn't allow me to fiddle with the arrow-line width yet. The software I used is an open source "mind mapping" package called "FreeMind". There are slicker commercial software to do this, but they cost money, and this is good enough. FreeMind is available for Windows, Linux/Unix, Mac. http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Mind Mapping in 8 Steps (to get you started) http://www.thinksmart.com/mission/workout/mindmapping_intro.html Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The purpose of models is not to fit the data but to sharpen the questions." ---Samuel Carlin From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Aug 14 16:24:22 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:24:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mind Mapping Software - Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060814112400.04963918@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 10:36 AM 8/14/2006, you wrote: > >I'd like advice on software for creating brainstorming mind maps. > >Hi Natasha, > >Resending a message I wrote May 8, 2006 to the wta-talk list under >the subject title: >"Advice Sought on Improving Reading and Studying Skills" > >Amara Perfect. Thanks. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcb at bathome.org Tue Aug 15 15:40:21 2006 From: mcb at bathome.org (mcb at bathome.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:40:21 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The 2nd IAA/ ESA/ CASI Space and Society Conference -- CfP Message-ID: <44E20705.8209.209A1A4@localhost> Esteemed colleagues, Dear friends, I wish to call your attention to an upcoming IAA conference that may find your interest -- possibly to the point of motivating you to contribute to it! Below I have included a summary of the official Call for Papers as you can find at , or through the ESA site . I shall follow up in the next few days with a message outlining some of my own ideas for creating sessions/ thematic areas. You can give me your feedback simply by replying to this message, as the list is moderated. With my best wishes, mcb ---- Marco C Bernasconi (Dr) Member IAA, IEEE & SSIT; Senior Member, AIAA. Email: mcb at ieee.org marco.c.bernasconi at alumni.ethz.ch ---- ---- CfP Starts The 2nd Space and Society Conference "Space Options for the 21st Century" 27 February - 1 March 2007 ESA/ ESTEC, Noordwijk, The Netherlands INTRODUCTION This conference follows on from the 1st Impact of Space on Society conference held as a stand-alone International Academy of Astronautics (IAA) event held in Budapest in March 2005 and is intended to gather experts interested in this broad, complex and international topic at a time when the world is celebrating not only the 50th anniversary of spaceflight, but also the 50th anniversary of the International Geophysical/Polar Year. The conference is hosted by the European Space Agency (ESA) at its large R&D establishment in Noordwijk, The Netherlands and is co-organized with the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute (CASI) and the International Academy of Astronautics. It is anticipated to hold a third such conference, organized by CASI and co-organized with ESA and the IAA in Canada in 2008. The conference will explore some of the many important and critical issues which are having an impact on society such as global warming and climate change, natural disasters, energy needs and resources, water management and security with a view to emphasizing how space systems, technologies and applications are helping to provide viable solutions to terrestrial problems. The conference will also examine the role of innovation, creativity and spin-in in conceptualizing, designing, developing and building technologies for space exploration and how this can be harnessed for societal good. To this end, entrepreneurs will be able to show how their ideas and concepts to utilize space technologies for new products and services can help meet society's needs. TOPICS Papers are sought which address such topics as: - Critical issues and choices facing society in the not so distant future - How space developments and space technologies can realistically provide solutions to urgent terrestrial challenges - Space exploration as a catalyst for providing solutions to terrestrial problems - Achieving sustainable development through space activities - National and global space policy issues and priorities - The impact that space activities are having upon society and how the public perceives them - Benefits of space in our daily life - technology transfers and spin-offs - Innovation and creativity in space systems design and development - New advances and developments outside the space sector which could spun-in to space programmes - Ethical and humanitarian issues of space activity - Ensuring greater public awareness of the role played by space systems in preserving Earth CALL FOR PAPERS Abstracts, limited to one A4 page, should be submitted preferably via the on-line form. Submitted abstracts should be in English and should contain the following information: - title of paper - name(s) of author(s) - affiliation of author(s) - a short (maximum 500 words) summary of the paper - full contact details of presenting author, including postal and e-mail addresses, phone and fax - special visual equipment required Abstract should be received by 13 October 2006. Authors will be notified of the decision of the Programme Committee by 17 November 2006. Full papers should be submitted by 2 February 2007 for inclusion in the Proceedings. WHO SHOULD ATTEND In order to obtain an interesting and lively discussion of the important issues facing society and the role that space activities do and can play in this respect, the organizers hope to bring together a group of leading environmentalists, sociologists, economists, philosophers, policy makers and industrialists to interact with visionary and specialist space experts to explore and discuss what viable options space development and space technologies can realistically provide for society in the critical years ahead. COMMITTEES & ORGANIZERS The conference is organized jointly by the European Space Agency, the International Academy of Astronautics and the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute. Programme Committee Chairman: David Raitt (ESA, The Netherlands) Pierre Brisson (ESA, The Netherlands) Olivier Arino (ESA, Italy) Arthur Woods (SpaceOp, Switzerland) Marco Bernasconi (MCB Consultants, Switzerland) Karl Doetsch (DISC, Canada) ---- CfP Ends From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 15 21:09:50 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:09:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Whoa! / Wafa Sultan In-Reply-To: <44CDAE71.2080704@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200608152128.k7FLSRYS009642@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eliezer S. Yudkowsky > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Whoa! / Wafa Sultan > > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote: ... > I was impressed by Sultan's willingness to call herself a rationalist > and to speak out passionately against the flaws of a major religion; > that's what I don't expect to see on US television. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai =214&ar=783wmv&ak=null Eli, it was on US television; FoxNews ran it. That's were I saw it first, and yes it blew my mind as well. The world need a million voices like Wafa Sultan, ten million. spike From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 15 22:58:17 2006 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer Message-ID: <20060815225817.79856.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com> Very bizarre. Turns out there is a communicable form of cancer in dogs that is not transmitted by a virus or other etiological agent but by the cancer cells themselves. Freaky. They are isolating tumors from dogs that do not belong to those dogs but to a dog or wolf that lived in Siberia between 250 and 2500 years ago. The tumor cells have essentially evolved (devolved?) from being components of a multicellular organism into bona-fide single-celled parasites. Fortunately, for now at least, its only in dogs but then again evolution never stops. http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/060810_dog_cancer.html Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "The 'I' is an illusion but that illusion needs to be experienced, and it is only by experience that it can be known as an illusion." - Shankarachanya __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 22:10:59 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:10:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Airships for Everyone Message-ID: <51ce64f10608151510t4c44f3d6o56c46e618ae29abf@mail.gmail.com> A post on airships that might interest the list members, particularly aerospace engineers or aviators: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=126 -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Aug 16 04:58:51 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:58:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: spam forms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608160511.k7G5Buh0006927@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins ... > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] ART: spam forms ... > >> Alex Dragulescu http://www.sq.ro/index.php > >> in the last years applied computational modeling > >> and visualization techniques to 'artistic' expressions. > >> In particular he wrote algorithms which analyze > >> spam text to produce (surprisingly) 'organic' images, > >> and hard structures. > > > >> 'spam plants' http://www.sq.ro/spamplants.php > >> 'spam architecture' http://www.sq.ro/spamarchitecture.php > > > > This work is amazing! > > > > Agreed. I wonder if the algorithms are reversible... > > - s Oh dear, I hope not. This weary world does not need an algorithm that takes actual art and turns it into spam. For example, Michelangelo's David would become an ad for male enhancement. spike From kevin.osborne at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 05:35:27 2006 From: kevin.osborne at gmail.com (kevin.osborne) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:35:27 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] future-sceptic jibes in the press Message-ID: <3642969c0608152235o2235a214r134a64706c1d4c4@mail.gmail.com> coming after the 'transhumanist nut jobs' comment from Wired that was noted on the list recently, here's a little nugget buried in a 9/11 counterhistory piece from New York magazine (http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/19147/): "Now, let's be clear, we're well aware that the dangers of counterfactual speculation ... are almost as grave as those of unbridled futurism." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the positions staked out on this list. Are the press actually quite right to call *bullshit* on us 'transhumanist nut jobs'? are our attempts to piece together predictive insights into a singularity path just as flaky a house of cards as second coming foreseers? Maybe it's time for a bit of searching introspection to ask if our assumptions are junk, whether we are 'Crazy People', and maybe find out what it is about our message that seems to have such a whiff. Is our 'The Singularity Is Near!' hype-train just as nutty as the wackos with 'The End is Nigh' body hoardings? Are we being just as foolish as christians since year dot thinking that 'Judgement Day' will be in their lifetimes? Like the early christians who rutted and stole so badly in their belief the that jesus was coming back next tuesday that the early church was forced to include the 'ten commandments' into the christian doctrine? (supposedly in about A.D 80, for the history curious). 2000 years later and they're still playing "Where's Waldo". I remember seeing a black and white 1940's era movie as a kid in 1983 that had the hero driving a flying bubble-mobile circa 1980; I remember thinking the eight year-old equivalent of 'what a bunch of jackasses' From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 16 11:10:11 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:10:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: The planets in our Solar System are now 12: Mercury Venus Earth Mars Ceres Jupiter Saturn Uranus Neptune Pluto Charon 2003 UB313 To make the most sense, read the docs in order. 1. Press Release 2. Resolution text 3. Questions & Answers Press release: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html Resolution text: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_resolution.html Question and Answers: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_Q_A.html Forwarded in an email from Mark Sykes, (PSI), who forwarded it from Richard Binzel at the IAU meeting in Prague: BRIEF SUMMARY (TWO PARTS) A. Planet = Hydrostatic Equilibrium Shape. Therefore: -Pluto status as planet remains unchanged. -There are currently 12 planets, and counting. -Ceres now a planet. -Charon now a planet (not a satellite; barycenter is in free space) -2003 UB313 now a planet; will be named after IAU Meeting. B. New IAU Category of planets created: "Plutons" -Pluto is the prototype. -Many new planets to be added, these will be the largest TNOs that satisfy the "planet" definition. (IAU may create a separate "pluton catalog". This is a separate discussion.) -Currently three objects recognized as "plutons": Pluto, Charon, UB313. -New discoveries of large objects (and currently known large TNOs) to be evaluated for "planet" status on a case by case basis. "Planets" among the TNOs are also known as "Plutons". NOTE: "Pluton" is an official IAU word. Terrestrial planet, classical planet, dwarf planet, etc. are all descriptive words, not IAU terms. We want to work hard to NOT have "classical planet", "dwarf planet" be mis- interpreted as official IAU categories. They are not. ======================================================================== -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From kevin.osborne at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 11:50:05 2006 From: kevin.osborne at gmail.com (kevin.osborne) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:50:05 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] future-sceptic jibes in the press In-Reply-To: <3642969c0608152235o2235a214r134a64706c1d4c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0608152235o2235a214r134a64706c1d4c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3642969c0608160450t25cec253w7904cd6785f5aba8@mail.gmail.com> coming after the 'transhumanist nut jobs' comment from Wired that was noted on the list recently, here's a little nugget buried in a 9/11 counterhistory piece from New York magazine (http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/19147/): "Now, let's be clear, we're well aware that the dangers of counterfactual speculation ... are almost as grave as those of unbridled futurism." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the positions staked out on this list. Are the press actually quite right to call *bulls--t* on us 'transhumanist nut jobs'? are our attempts to piece together predictive insights into a singularity path just as flaky a house of cards as second-coming foreseers? Maybe it's time for a bit of searching introspection to ask if our assumptions are junk, whether we are 'Crazy People', and maybe find out what it is about our message that seems to have such a whiff. Is our 'The Singularity Is Near!' hype-train just as nutty as the wackos with 'The End is Nigh' body hoardings? Are we being just as foolish as christians since year dot thinking that 'Judgement Day' will be in their lifetimes? Like the early christians who rutted and stole so badly in their belief the that jesus was coming back next tuesday that the early church was forced to include the 'ten commandments' into the christian doctrine? (supposedly in about A.D 80, for the history curious). 2000 years later and they're still playing "Where's Waldo". I remember seeing a black and white 1940's era movie as a kid in 1983 that had the hero driving a flying bubble-mobile circa 1980; I remember thinking the eight year-old equivalent of 'what a bunch of jackasses' From neptune at superlink.net Wed Aug 16 11:26:57 2006 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:26:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] If 9 were 12 Message-ID: <005401c6c126$ed9ac8e0$22893cd1@pavilion> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060816_planet_definition.html From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Aug 16 15:55:40 2006 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:55:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: spam forms In-Reply-To: <200608160511.k7G5Buh0006927@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608160511.k7G5Buh0006927@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2006, at 9:58 PM, spike wrote: >> >> Agreed. I wonder if the algorithms are reversible... >> >> - s > > > Oh dear, I hope not. This weary world does not need an algorithm > that takes > actual art and turns it into spam. For example, Michelangelo's > David would > become an ad for male enhancement. I had in mind a new encryption method rather than spam generation from perfectly fine art. - samantha From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 17:49:11 2006 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5844e22f0608161049t4a0d590dndd8a39e950e9b27a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/06, Amara Graps wrote: > The planets in our Solar System are now 12: Not quite yet. The resolution that would make Ceres, Charon, Pluto, and 2003 UB313 official IAU-recognized planets (Resolution 5 for GA-XXVI) "will be presented for voting at the 2nd session of the GA 24 August between 14:00 and 17:30 CEST". Interestingly, if they pass it, it is estimated (see FAQ page Amara linked) that another 12 to 24 trans-Neptunian objects currently being asssessed will end up classified as planets, so the list will go up into the 20s or even 30s of planets in our little ol' solar system. Best, -- Jeff Medina Sr. Systems Engineer, Lockheed Martin Sr. Programmer, Elemental Solutions "Do you want to live forever?" "Dunno. Ask me again in five hundred years." (_Guards! Guards!_, Terry Pratchett) From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 16 18:10:01 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:10:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: Dear Jeff, Do you think the resolution won't pass? I have not encountered yet any planetary scientist who seem doubtful for the new categorization. I do realize that there are a mess of TNOs out there which could easily be included too, so then perhaps school kids won't be quizzed on those (they could simply say "and those Plutons"). BUT we'll need a new mnemonic ... What should we use to replace "My very educated mother just served us nine pizzas" ? Amara (who is still in high-mood after her *wonderful* 5day trip to Sicily and Etna.. I went to the top-top-top and saw the steaming craters..!! http://www.hotelcorsaro.it/ ) From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Aug 16 18:42:44 2006 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:42:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060816133841.02557830@satx.rr.com> At 08:10 PM 8/16/2006 +0200, Amara wrote: >BUT we'll need a new mnemonic ... What should we use to replace >"My very educated mother just served us nine pizzas" ? "My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Damien From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Aug 16 19:09:21 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:09:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0608161049t4a0d590dndd8a39e950e9b27a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608161909.k7GJ9Z2D018901@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Medina >... so the list will go up > into the 20s or even 30s of planets in our little ol' solar system. ... I like what that notion does to Drake's equation. {8-] Amara will be able to answer this one. Our solar system is now considered dustier and rockier than the average solar system. True or false? Or is it less dusty and more rocky? Icier? spike From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 16 19:11:29 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:11:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: Damien Broderick: >"My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Ooh, that's good. I forwarded it to some planetary scientists in Arizona.. maybe it will catch on ! Amara From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Wed Aug 16 18:29:24 2006 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:29:24 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Protecting Animal Companions' life from Garden Toxins Message-ID: <380-220068316182924953@M2W013.mail2web.com> My family does a lot of gardening. Just recently, we have been building a zen-like patio and pathway, planting foliage, etc. To protect our dog and cats, we have kept them inside during the time, but can't wait to let them out again to enjoy. One thing I have been careful about is keeping them away from weed kill products. But now I am unnerved that even products that have no warnings could have dire consequences. If you have animal companions and also a yard or garden, please read this message I just received from a friend: "Over the weekend the doting H+ companion of two young lab mixes purchased Cocoa Mulch from Target to use in their garden. They loved the way it smelled and it was advertised to keep cats away from their garden. Their dog Calypso, decided that the mulch smelled good enough to eat and devoured a large helping. She vomited a few times which was typical when she eats something new but wasn't ac ting lethargic in any way. The next day, Mom woke up and took Calypso out for her morning walk. Half way through the walk, she had a seizure and died instantly. Although the mulch had NO warnings printed on the label, upon further investigation on the companies web site, this product is HIGHLY toxic to dogs. Cocoa Mulch is manufactured by Hershey's, and they claim that "It is true that studies have shown that 50% of the dogs that eat Cocoa Mulch can suffer physical harm to a variety of degrees (depending on each individual dog). However, 98% of all dogs won't eat it." True information about the mulch can be found here - http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/cocoa.htm This site gives the following information: Cocoa Mulch, which is sold by Home Depot, Foreman's Garden Supply and other Garden supply stores, contains a lethal ingredient called "Theo bromine". It is lethal to dogs and cats. It smells like chocolate and it really attracts dogs. They will ingest this stuff and die. Several deaths already occurred in the last 2-3 weeks. Just a word of caution ? check what you are using in your gardens and be aware of what your gardeners are using in your gardens. Theo bromine is the ingredient that is used to make all chocolate ? especially dark or baker's chocolate ? which is toxic to dogs. Cocoa bean shells contain potentially toxic quantities of theobromine, a xanthine compound similar in effects to caffeine and theophylline. A dog that ingested a lethal quantity of garden mulch made from cacao bean shells developed severe convulsions and died 17 hours later. Analysis of the stomach contents and the ingested cacao bean shells revealed the presence of lethal amounts of theobromine. Please email the manufacturer at michellemessick at hersheys.com and request that accurate information about this product be posted on the packaging to avoid further tragedy." Please pass this info on. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Wed Aug 16 19:05:42 2006 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Conference TV06: August 17-18-19, 2006 Message-ID: <20060816190542.77686.qmail@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Greetings to you all from Helsinki, Finland:-) We hope to see you, virtually, at least, during TransVision 2006... check below how to see the live webcasting... free... TransVisionarily yours, La vie est belle! Jose Kaj Sotala wrote: I sent the following e-mail to WTA-talk with the subject "TransVision 06 virtual avenues". If you know of any other mailing lists which would be appropriate for it, go ahead and spread the thing. ------------ -------------------- As a reminder to all - TransVision 06 is rapidly drawing close. Held on August 17-19, some of the most important speakers of the transhumanist scene will be coming together to hold presentations on varying subjects. This is an event you don't want to miss - and since not many of you have a chance to come to Finland to join it in flesh, here's a recap of the ways you can participate virtually. This year the theme is Emerging Technologies of Human Enhancement and we'll be looking at recent and ongoing technological developments and discussing associated ethical and philosophical questions. Some of our speakers are William Sims Bainbridge, Aubrey de Grey, Nick Bostrom, James Hughes and Natasha Vita-More. WEBCAST. There will be an online streaming video directly from the conference. Watch each of the speakers in real time! Detailed instructions on this can be found at http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/stream.php . You can also find the conference program at http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/program.php ; it's given in Finnish time, UTC+3. STATIC WEBCAST. In case you miss your favorite presentation or otherwise can't access the live stream. As time allows, saved video files will be made available for regular HTTP download shortly after the presentations. Other extra material, like slideshow files from the speeches, will also be made available on the TransVision website. For more information on this, watch http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/virtua.php . VIRTUAL DISCUSSION. There are two ways to discuss the event in real time together with other people from around the world. The official TransVision IRC channel is #transvision at IRCNet, accessible through an IRC client or alternatively through the webchat interface at http://webchat.xs4all.nl/index.php . The IRC room will also share its chat space with an area in the Second Life virtual environment - anything said in either medium will also be relayed to the other. The Second Life environment can be found by booting up the SL client (download one at http://www.secondlife.com ), finding the "uvvy" region at its map and teleporting there. SL will have some extra features that the IRC space won't, including some slideshows and a possibility to watch the streaming video from there. Regardless of the program used to access the chat space, it will be a fun way to follow and discuss the event in real time. People in the chat can submit questions to any of the speakers in the real event and have them relayed onwards, and any new files that get uploaded to the site will be announced to the chat ASAP. See http://www.uvvy.com/index.php/TransVision06_in_SL and http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/virtua.php for chat details. WEBLOG. As announced earlier, http://community.livejournal.com/transvision06/ is TransVision's official weblog community. Information about the conference gets posted there, and we are encouraging all participants to post their TV experiences there afterwards. If you want to read detailed event reports after the fact, this is the place. La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Wed Aug 16 20:49:08 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:49:08 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: spam forms References: <380-220067427233236953@M2W023.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <000901c6c175$6c74b4c0$ac901f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Samantha Atkins > I wonder if the [spam -> art] algorithms > are reversible. We may change the subject line, and in this case we have . Is there any example of that? Well, in a certain page, which is better not to go visiting, but if you wish to ... here it is: http://www.president.ir/eng/gallery/museum/museum17/museum16-1.htm , there are several items (i.e. the 'Wooden Fruit Pot', or 'Ornamental Pomegranate' ) which, in my very modest opinion, may be . Ok, there are several items also here http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/ like the anglo-american flag (look: up & right), but - please - read this one http://olehgirl.blogspot.com/2006/08/pres-ahmadinejad-trying-to-infect.html before going there. From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Wed Aug 16 18:28:44 2006 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Conference TV06: August 17-18-19, 2006 In-Reply-To: <4790334.610321155669560052.JavaMail.xuenay@sci.fi> Message-ID: <20060816182844.73668.qmail@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear friends, Greetings to you all from Helsinki, Finland:-) We hope to see you, virtually, at least, during TransVision 2006... check below how to see the live webcasting... free... TransVisionarily yours, La vie est belle! Jose Kaj Sotala wrote: I sent the following e-mail to WTA-talk with the subject "TransVision 06 virtual avenues". If you know of any other mailing lists which would be appropriate for it, go ahead and spread the thing. -------------------------------- As a reminder to all - TransVision 06 is rapidly drawing close. Held on August 17-19, some of the most important speakers of the transhumanist scene will be coming together to hold presentations on varying subjects. This is an event you don't want to miss - and since not many of you have a chance to come to Finland to join it in flesh, here's a recap of the ways you can participate virtually. This year the theme is Emerging Technologies of Human Enhancement and we'll be looking at recent and ongoing technological developments and discussing associated ethical and philosophical questions. Some of our speakers are William Sims Bainbridge, Aubrey de Grey, Nick Bostrom, James Hughes and Natasha Vita-More. WEBCAST. There will be an online streaming video directly from the conference. Watch each of the speakers in real time! Detailed instructions on this can be found at http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/stream.php . You can also find the conference program at http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/program.php ; it's given in Finnish time, UTC+3. STATIC WEBCAST. In case you miss your favorite presentation or otherwise can't access the live stream. As time allows, saved video files will be made available for regular HTTP download shortly after the presentations. Other extra material, like slideshow files from the speeches, will also be made available on the TransVision website. For more information on this, watch http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/virtua.php . VIRTUAL DISCUSSION. There are two ways to discuss the event in real time together with other people from around the world. The official TransVision IRC channel is #transvision at IRCNet, accessible through an IRC client or alternatively through the webchat interface at http://webchat.xs4all.nl/index.php . The IRC room will also share its chat space with an area in the Second Life virtual environment - anything said in either medium will also be relayed to the other. The Second Life environment can be found by booting up the SL client (download one at http://www.secondlife.com ), finding the "uvvy" region at its map and teleporting there. SL will have some extra features that the IRC space won't, including some slideshows and a possibility to watch the streaming video from there. Regardless of the program used to access the chat space, it will be a fun way to follow and discuss the event in real time. People in the chat can submit questions to any of the speakers in the real event and have them relayed onwards, and any new files that get uploaded to the site will be announced to the chat ASAP. See http://www.uvvy.com/index.php/TransVision06_in_SL and http://www.transhumanismi.org/tv06/virtua.php for chat details. WEBLOG. As announced earlier, http://community.livejournal.com/transvision06/ is TransVision's official weblog community. Information about the conference gets posted there, and we are encouraging all participants to post their TV experiences there afterwards. If you want to read detailed event reports after the fact, this is the place. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar You are receiving Individual Emails Change Delivery Settings Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Yahoo! Mail Drag & drop With the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta Yahoo! Photos Order Online Pick up at Target Start now Y! GeoCities Be Interactive Create a conver- sation with blogs. . __,_._,___ La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at tsoft.com Wed Aug 16 21:18:22 2006 From: lcorbin at tsoft.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:18:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060816133841.02557830@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: Damien contributed > >BUT we'll need a new mnemonic ... What should we use to replace > >"My very educated mother just served us nine pizzas" ? > > "My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Is nothing sacred? If we can't count on *nine* planets in our world of woes, just what can we count on? They should have denounced Pluto as a renegade, a counter- revolutionary atavistic wrecker and destroyer of ancient verities, a 20th century interloper who's been exposed for what it is, a pretender/upstart of the worst sort! I say that we make it a Law of Astronomy right up there with Kepler's, that there are---and always have been---eight planets exactly, and that short of something actually happening to one of them, it *stays* at eight, upon pain of civil prosecution. Finally: "My very Enduring Mother 'as just served us nematodes" and be done with it forever. Lee From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 01:34:31 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:34:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] future-sceptic jibes in the press In-Reply-To: <3642969c0608160450t25cec253w7904cd6785f5aba8@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0608152235o2235a214r134a64706c1d4c4@mail.gmail.com> <3642969c0608160450t25cec253w7904cd6785f5aba8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/06, kevin.osborne wrote: > > "Now, let's be clear, we're well aware that the dangers of > counterfactual speculation ... are almost as grave as those of > unbridled futurism." Actually, there is noting wrong with conterfactual speculation as one could easily wonder "If 911 had never happened would the Singularity be closer or further away?". If you understand the answers to the question it might teach you something about what things you may be doing right or wrong. Unbridled futurism is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What the author(s) may not realize is that *all* capitalism involving start up ventures involves a certain amount of unbridled futurism. The key aspect of raising funding is convincing investors that you can take something which *does not exist* and bring it into existence. It helps if you can show that once it exists it can provide a return on investment. It is extremely doubtful that investors will hand over $$$ to a risky investment if the entrepreneur is standing in front of the room and in a boring monotone repeating the words, "And then we disassemble the asteroids, rearrange the material using nanoconstructors and harvest the full solar output ending up with a monopoly on cheap energy in the solar system." People will be calling for the men in white coats unless a certain amount of "unbridled enthusiasm" is dished out as well. As a person who has devoted a nontrivial amount of thought to how we get from Point A (which is obvious to everyone) to point Q (which all but a few of the most educated view as damn near impossible) and as someone who has done several "impossible" things in his lifetime [1] I have to admit that I am still puzzled as to why people cannot connect the dots and would think that "unbridled futurism" is an undesirable activity [2]. Robert 1. My father summed this up a number of years ago, when he said "Rob, you are the only person I know who can fall into a bucket of shit and come out smelling like a rose." 2. Of course if all one does is engage in "unbridled futurist" speculation and never attempt to "make it real" then you might as well be viewed as a "lesser cow" contributing your share of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere [3]. 3. The methane that cows produce is more powerful greenhouse gas than the carbon dioxide that humans produce. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Thu Aug 17 08:28:54 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:28:54 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: Spike, >Amara will be able to answer this one. :-( No, I can't. >Our solar system is now considered dustier and rockier than the average >solar system. True or false? Or is it less dusty and more rocky? >Icier? I don't think that one can answer this question yet because I don't think that observations can resolve well-enough the debris disks to the resolution that you need; i.e. the instruments must have the the sensitivity to resolve tenuous debris disks like our Asteroid or Kuiper Belts, but around other stars. To answer your question of ice versus rock needs modeling which includes albedo and emissitivity of the dust grains too. From [1], the Fomalhaut debris has been resolved enough for this kind of work, but the models haven't been 'fine-tuned' enough to address this level of dust composition. You must also compare the relative ages because debris disks always change in time. And you must compare the same (relative to the star) radii in the debris disks. For example, our inner Solar System has experienced stochastic events producing sudden increases in dust flux during the last few Myr, which could be caused by a number of factors that are probably common in other debris disks too. Do we know what are the likely time in a debris disk evolution for these events? Not sure. According to [1], our own solar system experienced a large dynamic "re-arrangment' where the Asteroid Belt and the Kuiper Belt were depleted by factors 10-100 times during their histories (because collisional evolution would not produce the low-mass belts we see today). A Late-Heavy-Bombardment (LHB) depletion event is one good explanation, and there is some evidence for that in the lunar cratering record, but the extra dust produced would be a one-time transient event only. After a LHB event, the system would be cleared of debris and dust and would evolve slowly. Models comparing with data for extrasolar debris disks point in that direction and for our own Solar System too, the models and data indicate that our own Asteroid Belt, the earth-crossing asteroid population, and the zodiacal cloud have had nearly constant density for the past ~3 Gyr. LHB events probably happened in other debris disks too, but it is not clear if the timing of our own event is typical. Comparing to Spitzer targets, the authors of the paper [1] say that "The general lack of observed mid-IR excesses in Spitzer targets older than 30 Myr could mean: a) most systems do not have belts at temperatures like our asteroid belt, or b) most have LHB-like events earlier in their histories. and Comparing to Spitzer targets, the authors of [2, pg. 1169] say that for stars with a single measurement of 70 micron excess, the dust properties are generally consistent with Kuiper Belt configurations - distances of several tens of AU -- but at temperatures of ~50K, which exceed our Kuiper Belt's L_dust/L_star by factors of ~100. I have not answered your question to a satisfactory level, but that is all I can do now (would need to read some papers, not enough time). To give you the references that I would use myself to answer better this question, I suggest for you to take a look at the debris disk papers; it is a full and comprehensive collection! You can begin here: Mark Wyatt's publication list http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/~wyatt/ But then go to this _very extensive_ site by Paul Kalas on debris disks: http://www.disksite.com/ and click on "Virtual Library" [1] Evolution of circumstellar disks around normal stars: placing our solar system in context Meyer M. R., Backman D. E., Weinberger A., Wyatt M. C. 2006. In Protostars and Planets V, eds. B. Reipurth, D. Jewitt and K. Keil (Tucson: Univ. of Arizona Press). http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/%7Ewyatt/mbww06.pdf (look at sections 5, 6) [2] Planets and infrared excesses: Preliminary results from a SPITZER MIPS survey of solar-type stars -- pdf Authors: Beichman, C.A., Bryden, G., Rieke, G. H., et al. Journal-ref: 2005, The Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 622, pp. 1160 - 1170. http://astro.berkeley.edu/~kalas/disksite/library/beichman05a.pdf Amara From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Aug 17 12:53:20 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:53:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer In-Reply-To: <20060815225817.79856.qmail@web60518.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817085201.02e15018@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:58 PM 8/15/2006 -0700, Stuart LaForge wrote: >Very bizarre. Turns out there is a communicable form >of cancer in dogs that is not transmitted by a virus >or other etiological agent but by the cancer cells >themselves. Freaky. They are isolating tumors from >dogs that do not belong to those dogs but to a dog or >wolf that lived in Siberia between 250 and 2500 years >ago. The tumor cells have essentially evolved >(devolved?) from being components of a multicellular >organism into bona-fide single-celled parasites. >Fortunately, for now at least, its only in dogs but >then again evolution never stops. > >http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/060810_dog_cancer.html Wow! There is something related, human HeLA cells have contaminated cell cultures all over the world. Keith Henson From amara at amara.com Thu Aug 17 14:59:04 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:59:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: Damien Broderick: >"My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Please enter it here... http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=planet_mnemonic_contest Amara From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 17 15:56:53 2006 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:56:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817085201.02e15018@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817085201.02e15018@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <1613532D-7E32-43A3-81E7-45F653AE0E19@ceruleansystems.com> At 03:58 PM 8/15/2006 -0700, Stuart LaForge wrote: > Very bizarre. Turns out there is a communicable form > of cancer in dogs that is not transmitted by a virus > or other etiological agent but by the cancer cells > themselves. Freaky. They are isolating tumors from > dogs that do not belong to those dogs but to a dog or > wolf that lived in Siberia between 250 and 2500 years > ago. The tumor cells have essentially evolved > (devolved?) from being components of a multicellular > organism into bona-fide single-celled parasites. > Fortunately, for now at least, its only in dogs but > then again evolution never stops. > > http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/060810_dog_cancer.html A thought just occurred to me: perhaps this could explain some currently inexplicable cancer clusters? This reminds me of a small and somewhat remote town ("small" = ~500 people) I lived in growing up, that had a number of instances of the same kind of fatal cancer over a couple year period. A few government agencies took a keen interest but after exhaustive studies could find no plausible environmental factors (e.g. contaminants) that could explain how so many people in such a small population could develop the same kind of cancer at roughly the same time. And it disappeared as abruptly as it had come. It would seem that the spontaneous formation of a contagious cancer could reasonably explain that pattern, though at the time people would have thought you were crazy to suggest such a thing was even possible. J. Andrew Rogers From mstriz at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 16:34:28 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:34:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer In-Reply-To: <1613532D-7E32-43A3-81E7-45F653AE0E19@ceruleansystems.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817085201.02e15018@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <1613532D-7E32-43A3-81E7-45F653AE0E19@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: On 8/17/06, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > This reminds me of a small and somewhat remote town ("small" = ~500 > people) I lived in growing up, that had a number of instances of the > same kind of fatal cancer over a couple year period. A few > government agencies took a keen interest but after exhaustive studies > could find no plausible environmental factors (e.g. contaminants) > that could explain how so many people in such a small population > could develop the same kind of cancer at roughly the same time. And > it disappeared as abruptly as it had come. It would seem that the > spontaneous formation of a contagious cancer could reasonably explain > that pattern, though at the time people would have thought you were > crazy to suggest such a thing was even possible. What type of cancer was it? The original paper: http://www.striz.org/docs/canine-transmissable-cancer.pdf --Martin From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 17:03:09 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:03:09 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] First pictures of Virtual Transvision in Second Life Message-ID: <470a3c520608171003y4f2b4359s4f4dcd2f90029299@mail.gmail.com> Draft report and first pictures of Virtual Transvision in Second Life here: http://uvvy.com/index.php/TransVision06_in_SL_Report This page links to others with explanations on how to atetnd in virtual reality. G. From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Aug 17 17:16:01 2006 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:16:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Natasha Vita-More, James Hughes on MSNBC/Sexploration Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20060817121517.0304eea8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> >Will Technology Revolutionize Boinking? > >By Brian Alexander > >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14292504/ > > > > >Call it lack of imagination, but my fantasy of sex in the future is >almost entirely based on Anne Francis wearing a metallic mini-dress in >the movie "Forbidden Planet." > >Others are not so constrained. As recent news reports indicate, we're >at that 1939-World's-Fair moment in which there's just enough new >technology out there to spark some creative thinking about the shape >of boinking to come. > >When visionaries like Natasha Vita-More, an artist, futurist and >transhumanist, look through mental telescopes, they talk about >"neuromacrosensing" and millions of nanobots coursing "throughout the >body communicating with different cells, sending signals to the brain >so the whole body acts as a sensory communications system." > >That ought to make sex feel pretty good, but you'll have to wait. Such >things are a long way off. But other changes are coming much sooner. A >few have already arrived. > >Earlier this month, Palatin Technologies announced that a trial of its >new drug for post-menopausal female sexual dysfunction succeeded in >rejuvenating desire in women who had little of it. The drug, a >so-called melanocortin agonist, acts through the central nervous >system. > >Other companies have tried to gain approval for sex-stimulating drugs, >mainly testosterone, but have failed so far. Still, whether this new >one ultimately proves successful, its development indicates that the >age of pharmaceutically enhanced sex is almost upon us. (Available >impotence drugs like Viagra do not really enhance sex, they just make >it possible.) > >"One thing we will see is increasing awareness of and control over the >neurochemical basis of lust and desire," says James Hughes, a futurist >philosopher and author at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., who has >written extensively about the future of sex. > > >_______________________________________________ >wta-talk mailing list >wta-talk at transhumanism.org >http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk From bret at bonfireproductions.com Thu Aug 17 18:57:39 2006 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:57:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] future-sceptic jibes in the press In-Reply-To: <3642969c0608160450t25cec253w7904cd6785f5aba8@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0608152235o2235a214r134a64706c1d4c4@mail.gmail.com> <3642969c0608160450t25cec253w7904cd6785f5aba8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <450F1E55-EAB7-4694-A726-697CB1DB0AD8@bonfireproductions.com> Hype and credibility are inversely proportional. It may sell more movies or books, but you will suffer either on the social/societal side or the professional side. I see a lot of what Ray Kurzweil is doing as helping to popularize memes in modern science and technology in a way that Carl Sagan did for astronomy and astrophysics/general science. It is, imho, all good, but people see you doing stuff and they are going to take their shot. Even if they like what you are saying. If you look at the simplest terms - Singularity - when technological advancement accelerates to the point of infinity/unpredictability... well it is sort of that way now, isn't it? Just because we think there is going to be a better mousetrap/iPod/802.11q doesn't mean that we are predicting anything. We're just comfortable with the obvious. Toyota releases a personal air transport with a Thorium reactor tomorrow, and there is your surprise and unpredictability. Armageddon/End Days/Singularity? If you are taking one as the other or talking in similar terms with each topic, see your doctor or pharmacist. ]3 On Aug 16, 2006, at 7:50 AM, kevin.osborne wrote: > coming after the 'transhumanist nut jobs' comment from Wired that was > noted on the list recently, here's a little nugget buried in a 9/11 > counterhistory piece from New York magazine > (http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/19147/): > > "Now, let's be clear, we're well aware that the dangers of > counterfactual speculation ... are almost as grave as those of > unbridled futurism." > > Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the positions staked out on > this list. > > Are the press actually quite right to call *bulls--t* on us > 'transhumanist nut jobs'? are our attempts to piece together > predictive insights into a singularity path just as flaky a house of > cards as second-coming foreseers? > > Maybe it's time for a bit of searching introspection to ask if our > assumptions are junk, whether we are 'Crazy People', and maybe find > out what it is about our message that seems to have such a whiff. > > Is our 'The Singularity Is Near!' hype-train just as nutty as the > wackos with 'The End is Nigh' body hoardings? > > Are we being just as foolish as christians since year dot thinking > that 'Judgement Day' will be in their lifetimes? Like the early > christians who rutted and stole so badly in their belief the that > jesus was coming back next tuesday that the early church was forced to > include the 'ten commandments' into the christian doctrine? > (supposedly in about A.D 80, for the history curious). 2000 years > later and they're still playing "Where's Waldo". > > I remember seeing a black and white 1940's era movie as a kid in 1983 > that had the hero driving a flying bubble-mobile circa 1980; I > remember thinking the eight year-old equivalent of 'what a bunch of > jackasses' > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From benboc at lineone.net Thu Aug 17 19:08:42 2006 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:08:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Natasha Vita-More, James Hughes on, MSNBC/Sexploration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E4BEBA.1030506@lineone.net> "Boinking"?? What the hell is Boinking? If this is a new term, derived from "Bonking", i've never heard it before. What's wrong with "Fucking"? Or is that not euphemistic enough? ben zaiboc From benboc at lineone.net Thu Aug 17 19:14:18 2006 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:14:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> 2003 UB313 Just flows off the tongue, doesn't it? Is that Xena, or Qoaoar, or another one altogether, and if so, why doesn't it have a name, even a nickname? Surely someone has a name for it? In the extremely remote possibility that there isn't one, could i suggest "Bob Hope"? I think it would be cool if we had a planet called Bob Hope. It could one day star in a film called "The Road to Sagittarius A*" ben zaiboc (It's Xena, isn't it? clue: "My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Gets my vote!) From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Aug 17 19:18:15 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:18:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The 2nd IAA/ ESA/ CASI Space and Society Conference -- CfP In-Reply-To: <44E20705.8209.209A1A4@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817151427.02e090d8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 05:40 PM 8/15/2006 +0200, you wrote: >Esteemed colleagues, >Dear friends, > >I wish to call your attention to an upcoming IAA conference that may >find your interest -- possibly to the point of motivating you to contribute >to it! > >Below I have included a summary of the official Call for Papers as you >can find at , or through the ESA site >. I shall follow up in the next few days with >a message outlining some of my own ideas for creating sessions/ >thematic areas. > >You can give me your feedback simply by replying to this message, as >the list is moderated. For your amusement. 2000 tonne per day space elevator Abstract Text Even the most optimistic carbon nanotube materials will require some taper to build a space elevator. Tapered cables are difficult to drive mechanically, leading to complex systems of electrically powered climbers and lasers to deliver energy to the climbers. This leads to slow transit and replication times. This paper proposes the design of a moving, non-tapered space elevator cable threaded through a system of pulleys that increase the number of supporting strands as the space elevator approaches geostationary orbit (GEO). The number of pulley stations and the length of the cable will depend on the performance of the cable--projected materials have cable lengths of 50-500 times the distance to GEO. The proposed design is particularly suited to rapid buildup. The up cable goes beyond GEO before winding back down. New cable attached to the existing one at the bottom reinforces the elevator from the top. This design also makes cloning the elevator simple. Cables can move much faster than climbers, perhaps as fast as 1500 km/hr, reducing transit time to a day and replication time to 50-500 days. Maximum velocity is uncertain because part of the cable in the earth's atmosphere and subject to aerodynamic forces. This design also makes cable degradation due to molecular oxygen less of a problem since any part of the cable is only briefly exposed and the entire cable can be inspected and replaced as required. The paper analyzes a mature system able to lift 2000 metric tons per day to GEO. The mechanical power requirement is about a Gw (for scale the aircraft carrier Enterprise is rated at 0.21 Gw). Five Gw power satellites (at 2kg/kW) would mass 10,000 metric tons each, allowing a mature space elevator to transport parts for more than 50 power satellites a year. At 5 Gw-days to lift the parts, the lift energy would be paid back in one day of operation of a 5 Gw power satellite. The obvious effects of building scores of 5 Gw power satellites a year on such matters as reducing energy costs and carbon emissions are briefly discussed. http://www.liftport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21 (Photo of model. The cable on the left side of the photograph goes to the top, stress being transferred to the other cables through the pulley stations.) From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:05:34 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:05:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Natasha Vita-More, James Hughes on, MSNBC/Sexploration In-Reply-To: <44E4BEBA.1030506@lineone.net> References: <44E4BEBA.1030506@lineone.net> Message-ID: On 8/17/06, ben wrote: > "Boinking"?? What the hell is Boinking? > > If this is a new term, derived from "Bonking", i've never heard it before. > You must be English, then. :) The English dictionaries say that 'bonk' is English slang for having sex. Not really offensive as it is used in newspaper headlines. In the US, both are onomatopoeic, slang words. The US dictionaries say that 'bonk' means to 'hit' or 'bang' as in hit your head on a low door. Originating in early 20thC, from the sound made when you hit your head. 'boink' seems to be the US slang equivalent of 'bonk', meaning to have sex. Originating about mid 20thC from the sound made by bumping or bouncing. (I would have responded earlier, but researching these words tends to lead to rather distracting web sites) :) BillK From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:53:45 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:53:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] TV'06--Flickr, Plazes, eh? In-Reply-To: <5366105b0608170845r663fb298t265636f86f62022c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b0608170845r663fb298t265636f86f62022c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608171453g56699da2u1d30df6fd566178d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/06, Jay Dugger wrote: > I know the conference has an SL presence, and archives the > presentations, audio, and video. Unfortunately, I can't attend in > Finland or on-line. (I house-sit in an off-line building.) Has anyone > posted images from the building or SL to Flickr? Has anyone tagged the > building for Plazes? Here are a some screenshots of the area surrounding the SL conference hall and a few from inside: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=132 -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 18:03:25 2006 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:03:25 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> Message-ID: <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/06, ben wrote: > 2003 UB313 > > Just flows off the tongue, doesn't it? > > Is that Xena, or Qoaoar, or another one altogether, and if so, why > doesn't it have a name, even a nickname? It's Xena, altough that's only a popular nickname. 2003 UB313 is a catalog number, waiting for an official name. Interestingly enough, the IAU has never *named* a planet in all its history, since they were all aready named. This is their first time, so maybe they are just being extra careful :-) Alfio From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 18 18:04:35 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:04:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Internet gurus, how does Google get its info? If anyone puts up any website, Google knows somehow, right? It doesn't take any action on the part of the author. Google knows of every post on ExI as well as any other chat group too? It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when you're awake. How does it do that? spike From russell.wallace at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 18:10:57 2006 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:10:57 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> On 8/18/06, spike wrote: > > Internet gurus, how does Google get its info? If anyone puts up any > website, Google knows somehow, right? It doesn't take any action on the > part of the author. Google knows of every post on ExI as well as any > other > chat group too? It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when you're > awake. > > How does it do that? By spidering. A program (called a spider) starts off with a list of known web pages, then checks all the pages they link to, then all the pages those link to, etc; then when that process is complete, restarts from the beginning. (I vaguely recall the cycle time for the major search engines was measured in months, back in the early days; I'm guessing Google's available bandwidth has outpaced the growth of the web so the cycle time would now be shorter.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Aug 18 18:14:22 2006 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:14:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com > References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> At 08:03 PM 8/18/2006 +0200, Alfio wrote: >Interestingly enough, the IAU has never *named* a planet in all its >history, since they were all aready named. This is their first time, >so maybe they are just being extra careful :-) If they showed a decent respect for science fiction, they'd name it Proserpine (or Proserpina). Although that should really have gone to Charon. Damien Broderick From jay.dugger at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 18:24:53 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:24:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0608181124l445fa39fne80fe3ccb81ca305@mail.gmail.com> Decent respect? For a Johnny-come-lately such as Niven? I'd have named it Yuggoth. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 18:36:02 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:36:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0608181136s2489e246oe9dc031ef31e68e@mail.gmail.com> Decent respect? For a Johnny-come-lately such as Niven? I'd have named it Yuggoth. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Aug 18 19:12:17 2006 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:12:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <5366105b0608181124l445fa39fne80fe3ccb81ca305@mail.gmail.co m> References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> <5366105b0608181124l445fa39fne80fe3ccb81ca305@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818141107.023de890@satx.rr.com> At 01:24 PM 8/18/2006 -0500, Jay Dugger wrote: >Decent respect? For a Johnny-come-lately such as Niven? Ah, you've never read James Blish, then? Damien Broderick From davidishalom1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 19:28:45 2006 From: davidishalom1 at gmail.com (david ish shalom) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:28:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection Message-ID: . Bainbridge in his gloomy but bright lecture today in Transvisiono6 raised the issue of personality capture, in his own words: "record an individual's personality and genetic code, send them to distant planet and reconstitute the person there to begin a new life" and he continues: conducting a research and practical work on personality capture modules. a center for personality enhancement could flourish giving a service to capture, archive and computer-emulate clients and Bainbridge continue: "archive personalities, transfer them to computers, robots, and information systems and I find that rather than speculating or dwelling on developing philosophical ideas about it, I rather be practical, start where the already social sciences ..know how to measure aspects of personality and continue from there. I really pride myself that I may be the first human being who ever answered 100000 questions questioner as part of trying it on myself" so far Bainbridge's words. lately I have posted to WTA-talk an article named "Info-resurrection" a way for your personal survival besides cryonic preservation. it started a thread in WTA-talk and I thank the many participants. See also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inforesurrection/ I was much surprised to learn today in Transvision06 that the prominent Dr Bainbridge is not only supporting identical method to info-resurrection and personality capture, named "Self - Explore The Final Frontier - Yourself" http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/ see personality capture link there, but has gone a long way to practically develop such a method of capturing and storing the identity critical information for future reanimation. These days I am working on revised and longer edition about "info-resurrection", and i am much aided by Dr Max More dissertation " The Diachronic Self" in my personal exploration about the substance of the self. my argument is that in front of the existential risks awaiting in the next 20 years or so, and being unable to tell if cryonic preservation will really work, it may be a great mistake to overlook the opportunities to our survival to the transhumanist future that a method like Bainbridge's "Self - Explore The Final Frontier ? Yourself" or the much similar "info-resurrection" can truly hold, at least as backing to life extention and cryonics. I define info-resurrection as: capturing your critical self identity information , including your life goals, and transformation goals, your personal genotype {your DNA} thus for future converging technologies to be able to reconstitute your personality either as a clone of yours containing also your life experience and self identity, or in purer information technology - your conscious artificial personal intelligence, android robot of yours, etc, to the effect of your survival. I know it still sounds weird even to most of you innovative transhumanists, but today I have learnt that at least two people are investing in that method as a personal survival option, the first one is Bainbridge and hopefully many more in the future. All the best ? David Ish Shalom From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 20:06:31 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:06:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/06, spike wrote: > > Internet gurus, how does Google get its info? If anyone puts up any > website, Google knows somehow, right? It doesn't take any action on the > part of the author. Google knows of every post on ExI as well as any other > chat group too? It knows when you are sleeping, it knows when you're awake. > > How does it do that? Google doesn't know everything. Nowhere near. It just knows a lot. It is estimated that Google only indexes about 25% of the total web pages. The web is just too big (and growing fast). You are very likely to be able to browse to web pages within web sites that don't appear in any search index. Russell's description of search engine spiders is correct. But much simplified. How technical do you want to get? :) Different search engines have different algorithms and priorities. Some only index home pages of web sites, some dig deeper. Sites already in the index get rechecked quicker than new sites are searched for. And some sites, like news sites, get rechecked very frequently. Metasearch engines that combine many search engine results are useful for getting an alternative view. I use clusty and ixquick. Specialised search engines are also useful. e.g. PubMed for medical data only. By implication search engines can only index pages that have links that you can browse to. But there are databases and catalogues that don't have these links. They are called the Invisible Web and you need special techniques to get at them. gives you 100 search engines with descriptions of each one. Have fun! BillK From brian at posthuman.com Fri Aug 18 20:24:53 2006 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:24:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Also, Google and others are now providing ways for webmasters to directly submit site pages in order to make sure the maximum number of pages are indexed, and also allows you to check if there were any problems spidering your pages: https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login This helps get around the need to have spider-traversable links to every page. -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 18 21:19:31 2006 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060818211931.92046.qmail@web60512.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:03 PM 8/18/2006 +0200, Alfio wrote: > > >Interestingly enough, the IAU has never *named* a > planet in all its > >history, since they were all aready named. This is > their first time, > >so maybe they are just being extra careful :-) > > If they showed a decent respect for science fiction, > they'd name it > Proserpine (or Proserpina). Although that should > really have gone to Charon. Well respect for naming conventions to say the least. Aside from Damien's excellent suggestion of Proserpina, following the convention of naming planets after Roman gods and goddesses, there are quite a few choices remaining: Janus, Minerva, Vulcan, Bacchus, Diana, Terminus, Cupid, Faunus, and Quirinus. Personally, I like Minerva, as she was once of the major Roman dieties and probably deserving of a planet. Especially a planet that required wisdom to find. Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "The 'I' is an illusion but that illusion needs to be experienced, and it is only by experience that it can be known as an illusion." - Shankarachanya __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 03:14:23 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:14:23 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/18/06, david ish shalom wrote: > > Bainbridge in his gloomy but bright lecture today in Transvisiono6 raised > the issue of personality capture, in his own words: "record an individual's > personality and genetic code, send them to distant planet and reconstitute > the person there to begin a new life" [snip] If this is what Dr. Bainbridge actually discussed then he does not understand what happens when the singularity slope gets really steep. The first question involves what is meant by a "distant" planet? If he means within the solar system then it isn't "distant". It is highly probable that any intelligence interested in its own survival will already be widely distributed [1] throughout the solar system within the next 30-50 years -- long before there could be any "receivers" for such information or landings of nanotechnology based information carriers (sent through space at some large fraction of the speed of light) on planets tens of light years or more distant. Once ones intelligence has become distributed throughout the solar system it is next to impossible to transmit it to a relatively distant location unless you intentionally constrain it to some minute fraction of its potential. An analogy that doesn't even begin to capture the disparity would be like an intelligent dog sending an "intelligent" flea to live out its life in some remote location. The dog will have no interest in what happens to the fleas once it has rid itself of them. "archive personalities, transfer them to computers, robots, and information > systems and I find that rather than speculating or dwelling on developing > philosophical ideas about it, I > rather be practical, start where the already social sciences ..know how > to measure aspects of personality and continue from there. Yes, we may know how to measure the "personalities" of fleas. But that does one little good in measuring the personalities of dogs. > [snip] I have posted to WTA-talk an article named "Info-resurrection" a > way for your personal survival besides cryonic preservation. it started a > thread in WTA-talk and I thank the many participants. I have no argument with the concept or its potential feasibility. On my good days I even try to make a point of preserving those aspects of myself and my history that are the critical path "crystals" would exist to constrain a multi-RJB "info-resurrection". [2] On my bad days I question the usefulness of such activities. my argument is that in front of the existential risks awaiting in the next > 20 years > or so, and being unable to tell if cryonic preservation will really work, Cryonic preservation will work. The much better question to ask is whether anyone will bother to reanimate those preserved? "Oh, look mom, I've resurrected Marvin Minsky." "That's nice George W. Now why don't you go outside and do something really useful like directing the disassembly of the recently discovered pluton UB31397." I define info-resurrection as: capturing your critical self identity > information , including your life goals, and transformation goals, > your personal genotype {your DNA} thus for future converging > technologies to be able to reconstitute your personality either as a > clone of yours containing also your life experience and self identity, > or in purer information technology - your conscious artificial > personal intelligence, android robot of yours, etc, to the effect of > your survival. There is little doubt in my mind that info-resurrection will be feasible. However much more important than any external information (other than a full real time sensory I/O archive) would be the preservation of as much of the neural network as can be retained as possible. [3] There is no doubt that the external information could be used to resurrect many of us. The question should be which of the resurrections would be the *real* me? There are days that I ask myself whether or not Sasha came to understand some of these things some years before the rest of us. Robert 1. I pointed this out at Extro III nearly a decade ago in slide 16 "Super-longevity Requirements" and slide 17 "Distributed Intelligence". 2. I may have watched too much of "The Charmed Ones". 3. I suspect that even a fraction of a brain in poor condition would provide significantly more information than a very large amount of external data. In our current world perhaps the only way to guarantee robust self-destruction is to require ones body to be reliably cremated. Even then it is very difficult to eliminate all traces of and/or the possibility of reconstructing ones genome as a foundation for resurrection simulations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 03:24:06 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:24:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: > > This helps get around the need to have spider-traversable links to every > page. > But given the fact that page rankings are based in large part on links to ones pages is there much point to submitting non-spider linked pages unless you have some additional strategy for making ones page "popular" (e.g. submitting links to it in blogs, mailing lists, etc.)? Also, has anyone ever run into the problem that you can't get to *all* of the pages the search engines claim are relevant? I think at one point I tried to get the page that included results 9,090 to 9,099 of some million result search (this is an example) and the search engine wouldn't cough it up. (Or is it something weird like you have to go through the preceding 900 pages of results in order for it to cough of the 901st page?) Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 04:20:48 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 07:20:48 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c520608182120m76b21821tea545c017163b90@mail.gmail.com> David, it does not sound weird at all, and I am persuaded that capturing our critical identity information and reconstructing it in other regions of spacetime is a viable path to immortality. It is just that I don?t think we have anything close to the required technology yet. Text, Q/A sessions, video etc. represent, in my opinion, a channel with a to small (by orders of magnitude) bandwidth for this application. We need something much faster to capture a personality. Perhaps with brain implants. G. On 8/18/06, david ish shalom wrote: > . Bainbridge in his gloomy but bright lecture today in Transvisiono6 > raised the issue of personality capture, in his own words: "record an > individual's personality and genetic code, send them to distant planet > and reconstitute the person there to begin a new life" and he > continues: conducting a research and practical work on personality > capture modules. a center for personality enhancement could flourish > giving a service to capture, archive and computer-emulate clients > and Bainbridge continue: "archive personalities, transfer them to > computers, robots, and information systems and I find that rather than > speculating or dwelling on developing philosophical ideas about it, I > rather be practical, start where the already social sciences ..know > how to measure aspects of personality and continue from there. I > really pride myself that I may be the first human being who ever > answered 100000 questions questioner as part of trying it on myself" > so far Bainbridge's words. > lately I have posted to WTA-talk an article named > "Info-resurrection" a way for your personal survival besides cryonic > preservation. it started a thread in WTA-talk and I thank the many > participants. See also http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inforesurrection/ > I was much surprised to learn today in Transvision06 that the > prominent Dr Bainbridge is not only supporting identical method to > info-resurrection and personality capture, named "Self - Explore The > Final Frontier - Yourself" http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/ > see personality capture link there, but has gone a long way to > practically develop such a method of capturing and storing the > identity critical information for future reanimation. These days I am > working on revised and longer edition of this work, I want to stress > that in front of the existential risks awaiting in the next 20 years > or so, and being unable to tell if cryonic preservation will really > work, it may be a great mistake to overlook the opportunities to our > survival safely to the transhumanist future that a method like > Bainbridge's "Self - Explore The Final Frontier ? Yourself" or the > much similar "info-resurrection" can truly hold. > I define info-resurrection as: capturing your critical identity > information, including your personal genotype {your DNA} thus for > future converging technologies to be able to reconstitute your > personality either as a clone of yours containing also your life > experience and self identity, or in purer information technology - > your conscious artificial personal intelligence, android robot of > yours, etc, to the effect of your survival. I know it still sounds > weird even to most of you innovative transhumanists, but today I have > learnt that at least two people are investing in that method as a > personal survival option, the first one is Bainbridge and hopefully > many more in the future. > All the best ? David Ish Shalom > > _______________________________________________ > wta-talk mailing list > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 03:32:55 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:32:55 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608182032s1403978fsefc754a2e5ca21d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/18/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > But given the fact that page rankings are based in large part on links to > ones pages is there much point to submitting non-spider linked pages unless > you have some additional strategy for making ones page "popular" (e.g. > submitting links to it in blogs, mailing lists, etc.)? 99% of SEO (search engine optimization) strategies are useless unless you are a random porn site or some other site with thousands of competitors with the same content. Otherwise, word of mouth, original content, or offering a service that people actually need are all king. > Also, has anyone ever run into the problem that you can't get to *all* of > the pages the search engines claim are relevant? I think at one point I > tried to get the page that included results 9,090 to 9,099 of some million > result search (this is an example) and the search engine wouldn't cough it > up. (Or is it something weird like you have to go through the preceding 900 > pages of results in order for it to cough of the 901st page?) I've had this same problem. My guess is just that, for whatever reason, Google forbids it. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 19 04:40:42 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:40:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608190454.k7J4sEG3010543@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury ... There are days that I ask myself whether or not Sasha came to understand some of these things some years before the rest of us. Robert... Probably. Sasha seemed to understand everything years before the rest of us. 1. I pointed this out at Extro III nearly a decade ago in slide 16 "Super-longevity Requirements" and slide 17 "Distributed Intelligence"... I remember that excellent pitch! Please sir, was that not at Extro 4? At Berzerkeley? In 2000? spike From russell.wallace at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 05:02:55 2006 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:02:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e0608182202o463e6f8dycfeb33ccf026ae92@mail.gmail.com> On 8/19/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > > Also, has anyone ever run into the problem that you can't get to *all* of > the pages the search engines claim are relevant? I think at one point I > tried to get the page that included results 9,090 to 9,099 of some million > result search (this is an example) and the search engine wouldn't cough it > up. (Or is it something weird like you have to go through the preceding 900 > pages of results in order for it to cough of the 901st page?) > I don't know what algorithm they use for that, but notice that it says _about_ (some large number of results); that might indicate that it doesn't calculate the details of the later pages unless you go through the earlier ones. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Aug 19 03:56:11 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060818141107.023de890@satx.rr.com> References: <44E4C00A.1010706@lineone.net> <4902d9990608181103wb6658f7u974ca3214504830a@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818131143.02330420@satx.rr.com> <5366105b0608181124l445fa39fne80fe3ccb81ca305@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060818141107.023de890@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <35890.72.236.102.69.1155959771.squirrel@main.nc.us> > At 01:24 PM 8/18/2006 -0500, Jay Dugger wrote: > >>Decent respect? For a Johnny-come-lately such as Niven? > > Ah, you've never read James Blish, then? > Ah, Blish! The Seedling Stars! :) What interesting ideas! Regards, MB From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Aug 19 06:48:28 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:48:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] New Odyssey animation References: Message-ID: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano> Dear friends, please enjoy my completed fun with fractals animation called "Odyssey" scored with the music of Mozart by visiting my website here: http://www.nanogirl.com/personal/odyssey.htm Feel free to leave comments at the blog about my new animation at the blog here: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ I hope you like it! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Participating Member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 09:17:07 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:17:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/06, Brian Atkins wrote: > Also, Google and others are now providing ways for webmasters to directly > submit site pages in order to make sure the maximum number of pages are > indexed, and also allows you to check if there were any problems spidering your > pages: > > https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login > > This helps get around the need to have spider-traversable links to every page. > -- Yes, the Google sitemaps mean you can give Google a list of all the URLs in your site and run a check to see if the Google spiders find any problems with scanning your site. But this doesn't necessarily improve your Google indexing. Google say: A Sitemap provides an additional view into your site (just as your home page and HTML site map do). This program does not replace our normal methods of crawling the web. Google still searches and indexes your sites the same way it has done in the past whether or not you use this program. and, Google Sitemaps is an easy way for you to submit all your URLs to the Google index and get detailed reports about the visibility of your pages on Google. With Google Sitemaps, you can automatically keep us informed of all of your current pages and of any updates you make to those pages. Please note that submitting a Sitemap doesn't guarantee that all pages of your site will be crawled or included in our search results. ------------------------------ Google cannot index every web page in existence. The web is just too big. Their spiders don't find every page and those that they do find have to be trimmed down by their complex Page Rank system, relevance, importance, unique information, deleting spam sites, deleting stuff they don't approve of, etc. What's that? You didn't know that Google censors the net? (For your own good, of course. But don't annoy them or your site may disappear from their search results). See their quality guidelines at: Quote: If a site doesn't meet our quality guidelines, it may be blocked from the index. As an aside, the recent scare with AOL releasing customer search details has pointed out that Google also stores all your search details. Use Scroogle if you want to avoid this and the Google Ads. Clusty and ixquick also don't store search queries. BillK From sebastian at liem.se Sat Aug 19 12:15:55 2006 From: sebastian at liem.se (Sebastian Arvidsson Liem) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:15:55 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] OT: Resources on bayesian inference? Message-ID: <859bc0e00608190515g7246566p8b37ce8b3a01a1ed@mail.gmail.com> Hello, first of all sorry for being off topic. I'm a student in a Swedish gymnasium and as a such I'm required to do a year long project in my third year. I've chosen to work with the application of bayesian inference in the evaluation of hypothesis. As resources are lacking I wonder if your could give some tips on good books and papers? Preferably at the beginner or intermediate level. Thanks. -- Sebastian A. Liem From scerir at libero.it Sat Aug 19 14:48:41 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:48:41 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] OT: Resources on bayesian inference? References: <859bc0e00608190515g7246566p8b37ce8b3a01a1ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c6c39e$911c2df0$01bf1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Sebastian, follow these links: E.T.Jaynes 'Probability Theory With Applications in Science and Engineering' http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/science.pdf.html -E.T.Jaynes 'PROBABILITY THEORY: THE LOGIC OF SCIENCE' http://omega.math.albany.edu:8008/JaynesBook.html -Carlton Caves 'Resource material for promoting the Bayesian view of everything' in this page http://info.phys.unm.edu/~caves/ -Eliezer Yudkowsky An Intuitive Explanation of Bayesian Reasoning http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/bayes.html s. Here is a sample conversation between two Everettistas, who have fallen from a plane and are hurtling towards the ground without parachutes: Mike: What do you think our chances of survival are? Ron: Don't worry, they're really good. In the vast majority of possible worlds, we didn't even take this plane trip. From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:43:47 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:43:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: <200608190454.k7J4sEG3010543@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608190454.k7J4sEG3010543@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 8/19/06, spike wrote: > > > 1. I pointed this out at Extro III nearly a decade ago in slide 16 > "Super-longevity Requirements" and slide 17 "Distributed Intelligence"... > > > I remember that excellent pitch! Please sir, was that not at Extro 4? At > Berzerkeley? In 2000? Spike, according to the ExI Conferences archive [1], the talk I gave at Extro3 at the Double Tree (Red Lion) Hotel was titled "Paths to Immortality". I have a Powerpoint file which starts with that that title in the first slide and contains the slides mentioned above. The file is dated 10 Aug 1997 which agrees with the conference dates. I do have an alternate powerpoint file which is dated 1998 which contains a subset of that text but is much larger, presmably due to additional images. The images were being prepared in the mid-late '97 time frame and were my early attempts at explaning the Matrioshka Brain concepts. Unfortunately the file is partially corrupted and I am unsure as to where it might have been presented and who might have seen it. Extro4 was the conference at Berkeley in August of 1999 and the archive says that the talk was on "Genomes, Biobots, and Nanobots: Implications for 21st Century Medicine" [2]. I am not sure that I still have that presentation or my "Death to Death" lead-in to the talks by Campisi, Walford, Harley, etc. I believe those talks in part contributed to Brian Alexander writing the Wired "Don't Die, Stay Pretty" article in which I was so glowingly referred to as "a Harvard dropout and failed biotech entrepreneur" [3]. I do have a derivative of the GBN talk that I gave to introduce Nanomedicine Vol. I at the A4M conference in December of 1999. That was a rather amazing presentation as it is the only "academic" presentation I've ever witnessed that resulted in a significant fraction of the audience giving a standing ovation. [4] Robert 1. http://www.extropy.org/conferences.htm 2. Extro4 was also the conference where I objected to some claims being made by Dr. John Campbell. I believe I behaved a bit better at Extro5. 3. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.01/forever.html While Brian's statements might be considered accurate were not sourced from me and do not convey the complete context of those periods in my life, nor "The glass is half full" view of the specific events. 4. I attended something like 50+ academic and academic/commercial conferences from ~1994 thru ~2002 and standing ovations are, in my experience, very rare. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:57:10 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:57:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: On 8/19/06, BillK wrote: > As an aside, the recent scare with AOL releasing customer search > details has pointed out that Google also stores all your search > details. Use Scroogle if you want to avoid this and the Google Ads. > Clusty and ixquick also don't store search queries. ixquick.org: "Matrioshka Brain"... Featured Site Look for matrioshka brain on eBay [1] Search eBay for matrioshka brain. Bid on auctions or use Buy it Now to purchase items from customer-rated cellers. [ROTFL] But I click on the URL anyway... 0 items found for matrioshka+brain :-( R. 1. URL: http://search.ebay.com/matrioshka+brain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 19:36:16 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 20:36:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <44E62215.5000605@posthuman.com> Message-ID: On 8/19/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > > ixquick.org: "Matrioshka Brain"... > > Featured Site > > Look for matrioshka brain on eBay [1] > Search eBay for matrioshka brain. Bid on auctions or use Buy it Now to > purchase items from customer-rated cellers. > > [ROTFL] > ixquick.org is a squatter. You want You can get most things on ebay, but not (yet) M brains. :) BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 19 23:27:58 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:27:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 onpersonalitycapture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608192341.k7JNfWjC019154@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury ... Robert ... 2. Extro4 was also the conference where I objected to some claims being made by Dr. John Campbell.?? I believe I behaved a bit better at Extro5... Ja, that I do remember. But Robert, instead of thinking of it as misbehavior, I prefer to consider it your passion for the subject. {8-] spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 19 23:30:43 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:30:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608192347.k7JNlL5a008149@andromeda.ziaspace.com> OK, well in any case Robert, if a matrioshka brain does come up for sale on eBay, do let me know so I can bid on it. I have always wanted one of those, especially if it is in good condition. {8-] spike _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 10:57 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? On 8/19/06, BillK wrote: As an aside, the recent scare with AOL releasing customer search details has pointed out that Google also stores all your search details. Use Scroogle if you want to avoid this and the Google Ads. Clusty and ixquick also don't store search queries. ixquick.org: "Matrioshka Brain"... Featured Site Look for matrioshka brain on eBay [1] Search eBay for matrioshka brain. Bid on auctions or use Buy it Now to purchase items from customer-rated cellers. [ROTFL] But I click on the URL anyway... 0 items found for matrioshka+brain :-( R. 1. URL: http://search.ebay.com/matrioshka+brain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Sun Aug 20 00:56:49 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 01:56:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection References: Message-ID: <00b801c6c3f3$856e37a0$90210751@heritagekd9czj> This is an idea that I've already spent a lot of time thinking about. It's not just useful in terms of extending the lifespan of your 'empirical knowledge's essence', but it's practically useful too. Humans = mass + lots (and I mean lots) of additional mass to support them in space Space exploration needs high velocities to explore in short lifespans (and even if we manage to massively expand our own lifespans, we still won't want to spend 1,000,000 getting somewhere because everything will have decayed by the time we get back from the visit) High velocities + high mass = insane amounts of energy 'wasted' during transit + immense complexity of craft design It would be far, far easier to explore the universe by sending probes out with sensory networks on them that could be connected to our own nervous system and used as temporary bodies. Probes that didn't need food / water / heat / entertainment / room / positive pressure / etc during transit. That would also involve a large amount of communication lag (years using light and for just the closest stars) - you'd need to come up with some very funky method of experiencing consciousness & massive lifespan expansion to do it that way (if the human was still back on Earth in their normal body). There are also problems with even establishing communications over that range given signal divergence / distortion / absorption etc. Yes, technology gets better all the time, but some things are pushing the boundaries of what can actually be done according to physics, like keeping a laser beam converged, phased and out of the path of other objects over a few million years of travel is more than difficult. It's also an arguably inefficient use of time. The ultimate would be to condense your consciousness into a form that didn't require a high mass to store it and support it. I believe Arthur C Clarke mentions this idea either in 2001 or 3001, that humans eventually explore the universe as crystals of light - crystalised consciousness. Given the developments in storage and holography, this is far from sci-fi! Condensed matter states (bose einstien condensates etc) mean that we're approaching the potential of atomic level storage - slowing light to the point that it actually stops in the (none linear) optics. These technologies will develop themselves as part of the drive for better 'normal' computer storage here on Earth - there's no need for transhumanism to get too involved in that to get it moving, the big semi companies will do it themselves. Provided a full scale neural interface can be developed (which does need transhumanist help), the condensation capacity using this kind of medium for our own consciousness would be gigantic. Our entire physical presence could probably be reduced down to a few kilograms with it's support equipment. The actual 'crystal' of data would be pathetically tiny. Provided my back of the hand calculations are roughly right, there's potential for condensing an entire brain down to ~0.0000015mg of mass - including all the white matter in the core that doesn't do anywhere near as much as the cortex & the support tissues, like the blood supply (which won't be included in reality). I suspect that by the time we reach that stage, we won't bother sending lots of individual crystallised consciousnesses out to a distant planet. We'll just send some form of amalgamation or exploration group out to collect experiences and bring them back. The mass of consciousnesses will probably just stay in one place, accumulate data, experience it and work on it whilst the 'scouts' are away experiencing new things to bring back. For example, say you could record everything your nervous system experiences for an hour. You go to a concert and record it. If you'd be happy to give away your experience for free (or even sell it) to a group of other people with such interfaces, they're likely to just enjoy your recording and not bother going to the concert themselves (just like people do with CD's and have done with tapes and records - that they have to pay close to ticket prices sometimes to get anyway - provided that the price of the recording isn't disturbingly higher than just going in person, but even still... sometimes situations will still make the recording the better choice). When that concert is two thousand years away, people are almost certainly not going to bother going in person. Especially if going to that concert makes it much harder (impossible) for them to buy any other CDs because they're so far from the store. Instead, people stay at home more often and buy a load of different CDs. I think the same will hold true for space exploration. Another point I've thought about is... it's a very human idea to think that we're instantly going to want to run off and explore the rest of the universe. We will have just dived into a world where we can manipulate everything about it and exist on an entirely different plane of consciousness. I suspect what we will discover is that most of the universe is pretty boring and not worth anywhere near the time, energy and effort it takes to go and look at. That we'll actually be able to explore as interesting things, or more so, without actually going anywhere. We'll send of probes or scout groups to go and investigate things that look moderately interesting and spend the rest of our time trying to go to some even higher plane within our own personal universes - e.g. perhaps we'll work out how to disperse our consciousness about the universe as discrete pockets that somehow stay in coherence with each other. When they get back, the information they've scooped up will probably be 50%+ practical - e.g. how to build a better method of storage / transport etc. By comparison with our own world's a lot of it will probably seem quite tame. All the best! John From pj at pj-manney.com Sun Aug 20 04:58:58 2006 From: pj at pj-manney.com (pjmanney) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:58:58 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics Message-ID: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Aug 20 08:40:44 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:40:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Majorana in superposition Message-ID: Oh my!! (laughing) ---------------- http://www.andrewjaffe.net/blog/science/000205.html about the arXiV paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0605001 "The paper makes the claim that Majorana's disappearance was an example of his applying the logic of quantum mechanics to his own life (and death) - superposition, probability, uncertainty. If artists live their lives as works of art, why shouldn't scientists live theirs as if they embodied their scientific ideas?" ---------------- Amara Greetings from Helsinki http://www.mps.mpg.de/de/projekte/europlanet/ From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Aug 20 10:23:01 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 06:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Naming those planets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36584.72.236.102.75.1156069381.squirrel@main.nc.us> Amara, How about UserFriendly for Sunday? :)))) http://www.userfriendly.org/static/ specifically: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/06aug/xuf009420.gif Regards, MB From amara at amara.com Sun Aug 20 13:53:09 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:53:09 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: (thanks MB!) More relevant links related to this topic: The Division of Planetary Science of the American Astronomical Society statement: http://www.aas.org/ Comments & discussions on Resolution 5: The definition of a planet and alternative proposals: http://astro.cas.cz/nuncius/appendix_6.html And the Colbert Report... :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-7l2G2a6js&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebadastronomy%2Ecom%2Fbablog%2Fpage%2F2%2F Amara From scerir at libero.it Sun Aug 20 14:06:34 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:06:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Majorana in superposition References: Message-ID: <000a01c6c461$dc3aa320$18961f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Amara Graps: > Oh my!! (laughing) > about the arXiV paper: > http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0605001 There is a difference between what friends and collegues (Fermi, Amaldi, Pontecorvo, Segr?, etc.) wrote about him and what many outsiders are writing now. The reality is that M. was a true genius. My father (a friend of M.) told me he was able, at school, to translate perfectly a long page from Greek to Latin, or viceversa, in 5 minutes, and without dictionary. According to Fermi [1] he was like Galilei, or Newton. But then he became 'mad' (or something like that) and - it seems so - also a Nazi supporter. There are interesting (unpublished) note-books and papers and lectures. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0604064 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0607099 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0605226 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0603140 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0401062 In general these papers appear to be baffling. That is to say that their contents are well ahead of that time, and sometimes also of this time (i.e. see his 'unification' of the Schroedinger and the Dirac equations). [1] Enrico Fermi: "Al mondo ci sono varie categorie di scienziati; gente di secondo e terzo rango che fan del loro meglio ma non vanno molto lontano. C'? gente di primo rango che arriva a scoperte fondamentali per lo sviluppo della scienza. Ma poi ci sono i geni, come Galileo e Newton. Ebbene Ettore era uno di quelli. Majorana aveva quel che nessun altro al mondo ha; sfortunatamente gli mancava quel che ? invece comune trovare negli altri uomini, il semplice buon senso". From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Aug 20 15:25:27 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:25:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: <00b801c6c3f3$856e37a0$90210751@heritagekd9czj> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:56 AM 8/20/2006 +0100, you wrote: >This is an idea that I've already spent a lot of time thinking about. I venture to guess not as much as I have. :-) >It's not just useful in terms of extending the lifespan of your 'empirical >knowledge's essence', but it's practically useful too. > >Humans = mass + lots (and I mean lots) of additional mass to support them in >space > >Space exploration needs high velocities to explore in short lifespans (and >even if we manage to massively expand our own lifespans, we still won't want >to spend 1,000,000 getting somewhere because everything will have decayed by >the time we get back from the visit) > >High velocities + high mass = insane amounts of energy 'wasted' during >transit + immense complexity of craft design None of these are a problem. The output of the sun is enough to launch 1500 tons per second to near light speed. >It would be far, far easier to explore the universe by sending probes out >with sensory networks on them that could be connected to our own nervous >system and used as temporary bodies. I.e., uploaded. >Probes that didn't need food / water / >heat / entertainment / room / positive pressure / etc during transit. That >would also involve a large amount of communication lag (years using light >and for just the closest stars) - you'd need to come up with some very funky >method of experiencing consciousness & massive lifespan expansion to do it >that way (if the human was still back on Earth in their normal body). You can't have more than subjective milliseconds between you and the probe if you want to use it as an extension of your body. You *could* slow down your perception of time enough to get a real time experience with a probe light years away, but in my opinion that's a lot worse than just going there. >There >are also problems with even establishing communications over that range >given signal divergence / distortion / absorption etc. Yes, technology gets >better all the time, but some things are pushing the boundaries of what can >actually be done according to physics, like keeping a laser beam converged, >phased and out of the path of other objects over a few million years of >travel is more than difficult. It's also an arguably inefficient use of >time. Not really. Laser up to the task of pushing ships between stars have no problem sending information back to the ones who stay at home. >The ultimate would be to condense your consciousness into a form that didn't >require a high mass to store it and support it. > >I believe Arthur C Clarke mentions this idea either in 2001 or 3001, that >humans eventually explore the universe as crystals of light - crystalised >consciousness. > >Given the developments in storage and holography, this is far from sci-fi! > >Condensed matter states (bose einstien condensates etc) mean that we're >approaching the potential of atomic level storage - slowing light to the >point that it actually stops in the (none linear) optics. These technologies >will develop themselves as part of the drive for better 'normal' computer >storage here on Earth - there's no need for transhumanism to get too >involved in that to get it moving, the big semi companies will do it >themselves. Provided a full scale neural interface can be developed (which >does need transhumanist help), the condensation capacity using this kind of >medium for our own consciousness would be gigantic. Our entire physical >presence could probably be reduced down to a few kilograms with it's support >equipment. The actual 'crystal' of data would be pathetically tiny. Provided >my back of the hand calculations are roughly right, there's potential for >condensing an entire brain down to ~0.0000015mg of mass - including all the >white matter in the core that doesn't do anywhere near as much as the cortex >& the support tissues, like the blood supply (which won't be included in >reality). Extensively discussed by Charles Stross here: http://www.accelerando.org/book/ >I suspect that by the time we reach that stage, we won't bother sending lots >of individual crystallised consciousnesses out to a distant planet. You kind of miss the point. Exploring is the fun part for some people. snip >Another point I've thought about is... it's a very human idea to think that >we're instantly going to want to run off and explore the rest of the >universe. The percentage of the population who would do this is extremely small. I doubt you could find 10,000 in the whole human population. I have actually surveyed groups asking this question. >We will have just dived into a world where we can manipulate >everything about it And that may be the reason we don't see ETs. Evolution has not equipped us to resist this sort of "super dope." Keith Henson PS. Google for "far edge party." From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Aug 20 16:02:34 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:02:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:58 AM 8/20/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Forbes Magazine, always eager to put our money where their mouth is, >devotes this latest issue to Robotics (including cyborgs): > >http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/17/06egang_Robots_land.html?partner=globalnews_newsletter > >Put in your order for your exo-suit and vote on which techonology will >impact our world the most over the next decade. The front runner in the >poll so far, by a huge margin, is alternative energy. Amazing, cryonics is on the list. As big an impact as alternative energy could have, not getting an alternative energy source will have a bigger one--mass starvation and wars. Few people realize it, but there are many calories of fossil energy in every calory of food. Between running out of easy to get energy and the greenhouse gas problem, something really has to be done. Nanotechnology can solve the problems in a dozen different ways, but that may come too late. This is a group that is not into heavy engineering, but I was still surprised nobody commented on the mechanically powered space elevator I posted about. Massive investment, the cable is borderline nanotechnology, but it would solve the energy problem. It really needs to go up on a wiki page to accumulate details. Any suggestions? Keith Henson From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 20 16:58:13 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:58:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060820165813.GV14701@leitl.org> On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 11:25:27AM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > >High velocities + high mass = insane amounts of energy 'wasted' during > >transit + immense complexity of craft design > > None of these are a problem. The output of the sun is enough to launch > 1500 tons per second to near light speed. Sun's output is only ours to take if it is not already otherwise utilized, and buying a second of total stellar output might be prohibitively expensive. > >I suspect that by the time we reach that stage, we won't bother sending lots > >of individual crystallised consciousnesses out to a distant planet. > > You kind of miss the point. Exploring is the fun part for some people. Yes, a large population of agents stochastically sampling behaviour space for a long time will come up with about anything. > >Another point I've thought about is... it's a very human idea to think that > >we're instantly going to want to run off and explore the rest of the > >universe. > > The percentage of the population who would do this is extremely small. I > doubt you could find 10,000 in the whole human population. I have actually I think just 10^4 explorer types is too low, probably by a factor of 10^3 at least. > surveyed groups asking this question. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From mstriz at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 18:16:35 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:16:35 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > At 12:58 AM 8/20/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >Forbes Magazine, always eager to put our money where their mouth is, > >devotes this latest issue to Robotics (including cyborgs): > > > >http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/17/06egang_Robots_land.html?partner=globalnews_newsletter > > > >Put in your order for your exo-suit and vote on which techonology will > >impact our world the most over the next decade. The front runner in the > >poll so far, by a huge margin, is alternative energy. > > Amazing, cryonics is on the list. > > As big an impact as alternative energy could have, not getting an > alternative energy source will have a bigger one--mass starvation and > wars. Few people realize it, but there are many calories of fossil energy > in every calory of food. Between running out of easy to get energy and the > greenhouse gas problem, something really has to be done. I've been trying to promote alternative energy as a transhumanist issue for a while now. Hopefully people are starting to connect the dots. All our magic technologies have to run on something, so a transhumanist future is necessarily a Green future. That being said, I don't think alternative energy will make the greatest impact within the *10 years.* Out of that list, my vote would be wireless networking. There's no reason why Bill Gates' conception of networked home appliances couldn't happen within the next 10 years. Martin From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Aug 20 19:08:50 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:08:50 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 02:16 PM 8/20/2006 -0400, Martin wrote: snip >I've been trying to promote alternative energy as a transhumanist >issue for a while now. Hopefully people are starting to connect the >dots. All our magic technologies have to run on something, so a >transhumanist future is necessarily a Green future. The trouble is, human demand for energy is so high that small scale solutions just won't do it. The potential for wind energy, for example, isn't large enough. Fossil fuels won't last, and it would take on the order of ten thousand new nuclear plants to displace them. Power sats could tap enough energy to displace all the coal and nuclear plants. >That being said, I don't think alternative energy will make the >greatest impact within the *10 years.* You are probably right. But without a massive start in the next ten years a substantial fraction of the current population is likely to die in the next 20 years from starvation or wars from the effects of a looming bleak future. >Out of that list, my vote >would be wireless networking. There's no reason why Bill Gates' >conception of networked home appliances couldn't happen within the >next 10 years. I just can't see a toaster able to burn an image of Jesus into bread having that much of an impact on my life. Keith Henson From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 20 20:21:59 2006 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:21:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2006, at 15:08, Keith Henson wrote: > You are probably right. But without a massive start in the next > ten years > a substantial fraction of the current population is likely to die > in the > next 20 years from starvation or wars from the effects of a looming > bleak > future. I think that the market here seems to be setting the right mix of short, medium, and long range investment strategies for solving this problem. Whether it will be 'in time' is an open question, but I think that the we'll avoid the kind of doomsday scenario you're talking about - not that this means that things won't suck big time. :) -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mstriz at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 20:38:10 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:38:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > The trouble is, human demand for energy is so high that small scale > solutions just won't do it. Alternative energy, when fully implemented, won't be small scale, it will just be decentralized, and that's a benefit in itself. Having the world's energy subject to the whims of a few dozen people is scary. > The potential for wind energy, for example, isn't large enough. High altitude wind power is sufficient to supply the world's energy needs, according to many estimations. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:High_Altitude_Wind_Power http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm Other than that, energy needs will be met with resources available locally: hydroelectric where rivers are available, solar at low latitudes, etc. With advanced photovoltaic technology, every building could be energy self-sufficient. > >That being said, I don't think alternative energy will make the > >greatest impact within the *10 years.* > > You are probably right. But without a massive start in the next ten years > a substantial fraction of the current population is likely to die in the > next 20 years from starvation or wars from the effects of a looming bleak > future. A bit histrionic. Even I don't see the energy crisis looming that closely. However, I would love to see a massive start in alternative energy R&D anyway. > >Out of that list, my vote > >would be wireless networking. There's no reason why Bill Gates' > >conception of networked home appliances couldn't happen within the > >next 10 years. > > I just can't see a toaster able to burn an image of Jesus into bread having > that much of an impact on my life. That just means you shouldn't expect anything too radical in a mere 10 years. Martin From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 20:38:17 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:38:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today ...] Message-ID: There may be a significant ExI list problem (or a gmail problem -- perhaps worse), Looking at two recent replies.... On 8/20/06, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 11:25:27AM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > and Martin Striz to ExI > On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > At 12:58 AM 8/20/2006 -0400, you wrote: So I've got two (perhaps 3) examples of people citing a message (or messages) from Keith that I have *not* received. As I'm on gmail, so I don't see why Martin (also on gmail) should have received them and I should not have received them. I do *not* get that much gmail traffic that I would miss these and I can't see gmail dropping messages. It sounds to me as if the ExI-chat outgoing mail sender is dropping messages and that is *NOT* good. Alternatively the ExI-chat mail system is sending out replies to replies before finishing the sending out the replies which would suggest a queue prioritization problem. Robert From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 20 22:46:56 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:46:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson ... > > This is a group that is not into heavy engineering, but I was still > surprised nobody commented on the mechanically powered space elevator I > posted about. Massive investment, the cable is borderline nanotechnology, > but it would solve the energy problem... Keith Henson Keith, the mechanical aspects of the space cable problem might someday be solved by the appropriate materials technology, but that does not answer an issue with such a structure that I wrote about in a technical paper in 1991. Every satellite must cross the equatorial plane twice each orbit. I estimated the cumulative cross section of all the satellites below GEO and calculated that there is about a 45% chance of a catastrophic collision per year. The space station alone contributes about 20% of that risk. This is an anti-intuitive result for space guys because orbital collisions never happen. But a vertical cable is a whole nuther case: satellites are points of mass mostly traveling in the same direction, whereas a cable is a stationary line. AC Clarke *almost* dealt with this problem in Songs of Distant Earth, but his solution doesn't work. Vibrating the entire cable in a first-mode doesn't actually reduce its chance of collision. I thought of a slight improvement on Clarke's solution: twirling the entire cable around an axis so that the endpoints stay stationary. (Imagine a parenthesis twirling about a vertical axis. Endpoints rotate but do not move.) The twirling scenario solves the problem of cable flexing and the endpoint moving up and down, but even that doesn't change the cumulative probability of sub-GEO satellite collisions. It does kinda work for sci-fi stories where writers must offer *some* solution to these kinds of issues, even if they do not actually work in the real universe. So nanotech or otherwise, we cannot have a GEO cable or the elevator you proposed until we take down all the sub-GEOs. If that were not bad enough, we have no feasible means of taking down all the sub-GEOs, even if we wanted to, even assuming advanced nanotech. {8-[ Dammit. {8-[ spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 20 23:06:58 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:06:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury ... > So I've got two (perhaps 3) examples of people citing a message (or > messages) from Keith that I have *not* received. As I'm on gmail, so > I don't see why Martin (also on gmail) should have received them and I > should not have received them. I do *not* get that much gmail traffic > that I would miss these and I can't see gmail dropping messages. > > It sounds to me as if the ExI-chat outgoing mail sender is dropping > messages and that is *NOT* good... > > Robert It might be Keith's server somehow doing that. I noticed that Keith's ExI posts were getting caught in my spam filter. I set my filter to automatically always send anything by Keith to my inbox. If he takes up internet sales, he could spam my brains out. spike From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 23:13:07 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:13:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608201613y2e78c397n853c0e55142fa392@mail.gmail.com> Here is a better alternative to the classic space elevator vision: http://discuss.foresight.org/~josh/tower/tower.html Or: http://www.launchloop.com/ It's obvious that rockets won't work for serious space exploration, but then neither will space elevators. We will need to look towards other solutions, many of which aren't very fleshed out at the present time. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 01:32:12 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:32:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today...] In-Reply-To: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, spike wrote: > > It might be Keith's server somehow doing that. I noticed that Keith's ExI > posts were getting caught in my spam filter. I set my filter to > automatically always send anything by Keith to my inbox. If he takes up > internet sales, he could spam my brains out. No spike, that isn't it. If people are citing (replying to) messages from Keith then *they* almost certainly received the email from the ExI-Chat list server -- but you have a messed up server if only some fraction of the people on the list are sent the incoming messages. The fact that *you* are citing me as: > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury says that the list may be bouncing messages from me as well. That should not be the case as I only think I've sent 3 or 4 messages recently (unless the list has the maximum message per day cranked down to some really low number). Or have we got a really dumb mailer that thinks that the way to keep people from "over-replying" is that they don't get to receive mail if they have exceeded the message posting frequency maximum? (I.e. the mailer not only sidelines your incoming messages but refuses to send you any outgoing messages either -- but that doesn't make sense since I received the messages citing Keith's message just not Keith's original message). Robert From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 01:57:59 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:57:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today...] In-Reply-To: References: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: Ok, this problem was apparently mine (and/or Gmail's) and not the ExiCh mail server. (byegones) Keith's messages were getting flagged by gmail as SPAM and ended up in my SPAM box even though they were marked by my filters as being from the ExiCh list. (Apparently they will *not* show up in your inbox *or* the subject thread (within a labeled 'folder') even if they have labels attached by filters if they are flagged as spam. You have to explicitly de-spamify the messages to get them filed correctly (learn something every day I guess). I don't know whether gmail identifies only mail in my inbox from Keith as SPAM or whether it is a general aspect of all gmail SPAM filtering (if so, Keith ought to complain to Google). [1] Robert 1. Something we can all hope to aspire to... when all erudite extropian and transhumanist authors have their messages labeled as SPAM. :-? From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Aug 21 01:59:31 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:59:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridgtoday...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608210200.k7L203KQ010738@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Hmmm, ja that makes sense. I don't know what is going on. This worries me for it shows my GQ is way down from what it was several years ago (GQ=geek quotient, measure of one's IQ in techy stuff). As far as I know there is no automatic system for limiting posts, just the usual complaints start to come in if someone overposts, then we ask the person to tone down the yakkiness. Ja we probably do have a messed up server. I keep hoping some of the net gurus will step up and volunteer to fix it. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:32 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: > Bainbridgtoday...] > > On 8/20/06, spike wrote: > > > > It might be Keith's server somehow doing that. I noticed that Keith's > ExI > > posts were getting caught in my spam filter. I set my filter to > > automatically always send anything by Keith to my inbox. If he takes up > > internet sales, he could spam my brains out. > > No spike, that isn't it. If people are citing (replying to) messages > from Keith then *they* almost certainly received the email from the > ExI-Chat list server -- but you have a messed up server if only some > fraction of the people on the list are sent the incoming messages. > > The fact that *you* are citing me as: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury > > says that the list may be bouncing messages from me as well. That > should not be the case as I only think I've sent 3 or 4 messages > recently (unless the list has the maximum message per day cranked down > to some really low number). > > Or have we got a really dumb mailer that thinks that the way to keep > people from "over-replying" is that they don't get to receive mail if > they have exceeded the message posting frequency maximum? (I.e. the > mailer not only sidelines your incoming messages but refuses to send > you any outgoing messages either -- but that doesn't make sense since > I received the messages citing Keith's message just not Keith's > original message). > > Robert > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 03:09:17 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:09:17 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820225907.02df00f0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:46 PM 8/20/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson >... > > > > This is a group that is not into heavy engineering, but I was still > > surprised nobody commented on the mechanically powered space elevator I > > posted about. Massive investment, the cable is borderline nanotechnology, > > but it would solve the energy problem... Keith Henson > > >Keith, the mechanical aspects of the space cable problem might someday be >solved by the appropriate materials technology, but that does not answer an >issue with such a structure that I wrote about in a technical paper in 1991. >Every satellite must cross the equatorial plane twice each orbit. I >estimated the cumulative cross section of all the satellites below GEO and >calculated that there is about a 45% chance of a catastrophic collision per >year. The space station alone contributes about 20% of that risk. Already addressed. Part of the project involves cleaning out all the big stuff, including the space station. Ion engine tugs haul it up to GEO. You need it anyway for the counterweight. The other is that very early in the process you clone the elevator so that you can recover from it getting hit. >This is an anti-intuitive result for space guys because orbital collisions >never happen. But a vertical cable is a whole nuther case: satellites are >points of mass mostly traveling in the same direction, whereas a cable is a >stationary line. AC Clarke *almost* dealt with this problem in Songs of >Distant Earth, but his solution doesn't work. Vibrating the entire cable in >a first-mode doesn't actually reduce its chance of collision. I thought of >a slight improvement on Clarke's solution: twirling the entire cable around >an axis so that the endpoints stay stationary. (Imagine a parenthesis >twirling about a vertical axis. Endpoints rotate but do not move.) One current approach is to anchor the cable on a ship. You can predict early enough to steam the ship some miles and that moves the cable far enough to get out of the way of something. Fixed point anchors will probably wait till orbit cleaning is far along. >The twirling scenario solves the problem of cable flexing and the endpoint >moving up and down, but even that doesn't change the cumulative probability >of sub-GEO satellite collisions. It does kinda work for sci-fi stories >where writers must offer *some* solution to these kinds of issues, even if >they do not actually work in the real universe. > >So nanotech or otherwise, we cannot have a GEO cable or the elevator you >proposed until we take down all the sub-GEOs. If that were not bad enough, >we have no feasible means of taking down all the sub-GEOs, even if we wanted >to, even assuming advanced nanotech. {8-[ Dammit. {8-[ That's not true, there are many ways with and without nanotech to clean out orbits out to GEO. The more amusing problem is to drain the Van Allen belts. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 03:44:58 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:44:58 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608201613y2e78c397n853c0e55142fa392@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 04:13 PM 8/20/2006 -0700, Michael wrote: >Here is a better alternative to the classic space elevator vision: > >http://discuss.foresight.org/~josh/tower/tower.html "And the stationary skyhook is among the more sedate of the blue-sky earth-to-orbit schemes, with a respectable intellectual history and numerous references and analyses in the literature." As an engineer I would estimate that 100km towers supporting an EM accelerator are much more difficult and offer no growth ability. >Or: > >http://www.launchloop.com/ I think Keith Lofstrom (who is one of my favorite people) would agree with me that the launch loop will take post-nanotech engineering. It requires just too much reliability when you have hundreds of km of 50k/sec ribbon with 50 Gw hours of energy stored in it, all moving in a vacuum. >It's obvious that rockets won't work for serious space exploration, >but then neither will space elevators. You are certain on this point? >We will need to look towards >other solutions, many of which aren't very fleshed out at the present >time. I think in the long run people will upload and not bother going into space or anywhere else for that matter. Space elevators are like O'Neill colonies, something with a very short window if they happen at all. Keith Henson From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Aug 21 03:41:02 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:41:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridgtoday...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:58 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: > Bainbridgtoday...] > > Ok, this problem was apparently mine (and/or Gmail's) and not the > ExiCh mail server. (byegones) Bygones. {8^D > ...Keith's messages were getting flagged by gmail as SPAM and ended up in > my SPAM box even though they were marked by my filters as being from > the ExiCh list...Robert OK cool, now this makes me suspicious. Keith's posts were somehow being flagged by my system as spam too. I specifically de-spammified him, so now I get his messages, but why only his? I didn't see any other ExIers in my spam bucket. Could you-know-who have figured out a way to get his posts to trigger the spam filters? Would they do such a thing? If so how? Or has my conspiracy meter gone nuts? ExIers, is anyone else out there finding Keith's posts in their spam folder? spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 02:56:40 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:56:40 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 04:38 PM 8/20/2006 -0400, Martin wrote: >On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: snip > > The potential for wind energy, for example, isn't large enough. > >High altitude wind power is sufficient to supply the world's energy >needs, according to many estimations. > >http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:High_Altitude_Wind_Power > >http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm The engineering problems for this are *worse* than a space elevator and hundreds of power satellites. >Other than that, energy needs will be met with resources available >locally: hydroelectric where rivers are available, solar at low >latitudes, etc. With advanced photovoltaic technology, every building >could be energy self-sufficient. I agree with you, but I think you are talking post nanotechnology to do it. I don't see this inside what can be done pre singularity. > > >That being said, I don't think alternative energy will make the > > >greatest impact within the *10 years.* > > > > You are probably right. But without a massive start in the next ten years > > a substantial fraction of the current population is likely to die in the > > next 20 years from starvation or wars from the effects of a looming bleak > > future. > >A bit histrionic. Even I don't see the energy crisis looming that >closely. Do you understand the EP model of wars? All you have to do to get war memes circulating is for the general perception of the population to be of a future worse than the present. Running out of oil without something on the horizon to replace it makes for that kind of future. You can make a good case that the present mess in the mideast is an early presentation. >However, I would love to see a massive start in alternative >energy R&D anyway. A space elevator/solar power satellite project is not really research. Just large scale engineering. Keith hesnon From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 05:14:10 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:14:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608202214v18362d42rc85b05936c56b39a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > "And the stationary skyhook is among the more sedate of the blue-sky > earth-to-orbit schemes, with a respectable intellectual history and > numerous references and analyses in the literature." As an engineer I > would estimate that 100km towers supporting an EM accelerator are much more > difficult and offer no growth ability. Rockets have a "respectable intellectual history and numerous references and analyses in the literature", but they're still just bombs with a hole poked in the side. > I think Keith Lofstrom (who is one of my favorite people) would agree with > me that the launch loop will take post-nanotech engineering. It requires > just too much reliability when you have hundreds of km of 50k/sec ribbon > with 50 Gw hours of energy stored in it, all moving in a vacuum. His design is based on conventional materials, but agreed, the reliability factor is intimidating. > >It's obvious that rockets won't work for serious space exploration, > >but then neither will space elevators. > > You are certain on this point? The point is moot anyway, because we aren't going into space. Not far anyway. > I think in the long run people will upload and not bother going into space > or anywhere else for that matter. Space elevators are like O'Neill > colonies, something with a very short window if they happen at all. Agreed. Rather than spread out from the Earth, it is far more likely that we will condense into a sphere perhaps the size of a basketball. A meter is worlds away when your mind is running at 10^30 ops/sec. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From scerir at libero.it Mon Aug 21 06:31:08 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:31:08 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re:Bainbridgtoday...] References: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <003f01c6c4eb$63f29a00$c1bb1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> spike > ExIers, is anyone else out there finding > Keith's posts in their spam folder? No, using my new isp 'tiscali.it'. Big problems using my old isp 'libero.it', in this case I do not receive any posts, from Exiers, because they are (all) erased by the isp :-( s. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Aug 21 07:25:06 2006 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 02:25:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] curious over-unity claim Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060821022316.0226b9c0@satx.rr.com> hey, stop looking at me like that, I just work here Irish Scientific Firm Challenges Skeptics to Prove Them Wrong About 'Free Energy' GREGORY DAIGLE - Ohmy News.com Dublin-based technology risk management company, Steorn, has challenged the scientific community to prove it wrong. In an advertisement found in the most recent issue of The Economist it has challenged scientists and engineers to test the firm's free-energy technology and publish the findings. The challenge appears real, but is the technology? Steorn states that from all the scientists who accept their challenge, twelve will be invited to take part in a rigorous testing exercise to prove (or disprove) that Steorn's technology creates free-energy (also known as over-unity). The results will be published worldwide. According to Steorn the technology is based on the interaction of magnetic fields and allows the production of clean, free and constant energy. The technology can be scaled to virtually all devices requiring energy, from cellular phones to cars. Assuming their claims can be validated, Steorn intends to license its technology to organizations within the energy sector. It will allow use of its technology royalty-free for certain purposes including water and rural electrification projects in Third World countries. The Challenge Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, has said that he posted this challenge in the pages of The Economist to catch the attention of academicians, scientists and researchers. However, his choice of this eminent and widely read business publication is clearly gauged to catch the eye of business institutions and potentially -- funders. It is rare that such a "throwing down the gauntlet" occurs in so public a forum. But Steorn knows that its claims will encounter substantial cynicism as it goes against a basic principle of physics: the conservation of energy. So its defense is to begin with a bold offense. Patents filed by Steorn could also encounter the skepticism of various patent offices, which will not grant patents for "perpetual motion" machines. So Steorn has not patented their core technology. Rather, they have filed a sequence of patents which describe various aspects of the technology but not its overall effects. One such patent suggests an arrangement of magnets and a magnetic shield on a linear slide to act as a low-energy actuator switch turning the magnetic fields on and off. If verified then this device would be a remarkable achievement. If not, it joins a long list of failed or delayed free-energy devices including other magnetic shield devices and the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG), reportedly still in "engineering development" after many years of burning through funding capital. [] Scientists Flock to Test 'Free Energy' Discovery DAVID SMITH - The Observer (U.K.) A man who claims to have developed a free energy technology which could power everything from mobile phones to cars has received more than 400 applications from scientists to test it. Sean McCarthy says that no one was more sceptical than he when Steorn, his small hi-tech firm in Dublin, hit upon a way of generating clean, free and constant energy from the interaction of magnetic fields. 'It wasn't so much a Eureka moment as a get-back-in-there-and-check-your-instruments moment, although in far more colourful language,' said McCarthy. But when he attempted to share his findings, he says, scientists either put the phone down on him or refused to endorse him publicly in case they damaged their academic reputations. So last week he took out a full-page advert in the Economist magazine, challenging the scientific community to examine his technology. McCarthy claims it provides five times the amount of energy a mobile phone battery generates for the same size, and does not have to be recharged. Within 36 hours of his advert appearing he had been contacted by 420 scientists in Europe, America and Australia, and a further 4,606 people had registered to receive the results. [] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3902f39.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 849 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Aug 21 07:38:18 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:38:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] More string theory: The String Coffee Table Message-ID: Those of you following the discussions that emerged from Peter Woit's and Lee Smolin's books criticizing String Theory - here is a thoughtful review from Aaron Bergman. http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/string/archives/000898.html Amara From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Mon Aug 21 05:18:04 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:18:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personalitycapture vs info-resurrection References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <00ef01c6c4e1$2e043070$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> > I venture to guess not as much as I have. :-) Maybe... 8^P > None of these are a problem. The output of the sun is enough to launch > 1500 tons per second to near light speed. Not a problem, if you have an engine with an output similar to that of a star burning 700 million tonnes of hydrogen per second in a fusion reaction. Anti-matter / ion engines are a possibility of course, but even getting them will be fun. It's a shame, with fusion arriving soon we'll finally have a technology that will allow for the generation of masses of energy without the risk of explosions and meltdowns. Anti-matter is going the other way in terms of saftey, back towards another Chernobyl when it fails, but orders of manitude worse. The sun is ~1.3M times the size of Earth I believe, and can burn all of it's self up to fuel it's energy output (doesn't have to worry about not having anywhere to live afterwards). We have only the energy transistions we can get to easily and without harming our enviroment too much for use in anti-matter generation, which isn't very good. And a lot of those transistions are low yeild chemical / fission in nature. I suppose the best way to generate anti-matter would probably be with a big solar farm in space. Then you've got things like your ship melting as soon as you hit the accelerator without deflectors. Then you'll need some seriously good breaks. And all so's you can a still spend a gigantic amount of time flying from star system A->B. All of these are problems that can almost certainly be overcome. That's definitly not the point. The point is... is there an easier way? And I suspect, yes... yes there is! I think trying to drag out present bodies around with is just a waste. Rather than trying to design super-duper powerful crafts to carry them, we should just fix the problem right at the root and make our bodies more fitting for such a journey. I'm reasonably confident that'll not only be easier but produce a much more pleasing result as well. > I.e., uploaded. Just testing... [grin] > You can't have more than subjective milliseconds between you and the probe > if you want to use it as an extension of your body. You *could* slow down > your perception of time enough to get a real time experience with a probe > light years away, but in my opinion that's a lot worse than just going > there. Assumed and agreed, although there may be some scope for slowing of the controller's experience if they're sitting in some suspended condition back on Earth, not aging. They could supplement large serial data streams (like we think now) from one particular place with lots of smaller parallel steams from all over the place (kind like the far edge party idea but with consciousness and processing). Of coarse, the human mind doesn't like working on massively parallel problems (thinking of five tunes at once for instance), so you'd probably need to display it in some strange fashion or just modify the consciousness it's self. > Not really. Laser up to the task of pushing ships between stars have no > problem sending information back to the ones who stay at home. I'm not entirely sure about that. Over such distances, the beam's degredation has a huge impact on it's data capacity. Transmitting a wave of brute force energy for something to ride on is a lot easier than getting massive quantities of data into it. For an example... they're about to test this idea out with a probe aimed for Mars. The laser will have diverged enough that it's target is a quadrant of the US by the time it gets back here. Data rates will be ~10Mbs with a peak at 30Mbs under optimal conditions. Here on Earth, it's normal to get 10/20Gbs from a diode / fiber that would fit on the end of a pencil. Bearing in mind that even the diodes we have here on Earth for fibre work can't carry the quantity of data needed to support a human nervous system, we're already looking at needing a 1000 fold improvement in the data rates just between here an Mars to still fall short. Obviously, interstellar transmissions will be orders of magnitude more challenging simply because the distance / likely hood of conflicting paths, orbits, absorption & distortion will be orders of magnitude bigger. Again, it's like the star ship idea. You almost certainly could do this with enough effort, but it's whether or not it's efficient to do it in the first place. I would like to see the optics used on such a laser system however. I suspect they'd have to start at being near atomically perfect and probably have to make use of some absolute characteristics of things like superconductors or condensed states of matter. > Extensively discussed by Charles Stross here: > http://www.accelerando.org/book/ Thanks for the link, I'll have a read of it when I wake up tomorrow. > You kind of miss the point. Exploring is the fun part for some people. Only when they think there's something exciting to be found. People will probably start getting bored with it quite quickly. It'll be like exploring the outback in Australia. Some adventurous people will find it fun... at first. Then, very soon after, they start thinking "Just another deadly spider trying to bite me... I want a shower and a cuppa now" > The percentage of the population who would do this is extremely small. I > doubt you could find 10,000 in the whole human population. I have > actually > surveyed groups asking this question. I 100% agree with you, and that's part of my answer to the above bit. That the group of people who are willing to actually pioneer this will be small enough that it'll be hard getting the funding together to afford the setup costs of these projects with so many people deeming it 'pointless' until they can buy a ticket for 9.99 with EasyExtropy. The net is basically the only place where I can find people who are even remotely interested in a lot of these topics, and even then it's a difficult minority group to dig out of the hidey holes of cyberspace. When it comes to pushing the extremes of the ideas, like the practicalities of deep space exploration and what that might mean for our conscious experience of existence, I'm counting on one hand. > And that may be the reason we don't see ETs. Evolution has not equipped > us > to resist this sort of "super dope." Once we start sending probes out on interstellar exploration missions I think it'll have to be mandatory to take some form of tagging system with them to redirect any passing intelligence towards their source. It would be amusing if by the time we meet up no one is even close to being suprised beause they (the ET's) seem so normal by comparison to their new world. After a lot of thinking, I've decided I like day dreaming. People almost always use the term in a negative way or say that doing is superior to thinking. I'm not entirely okay with that. For a start, there isn't such a big difference between the world created by sensory nervous system and the virtual world created by your memories of those sensory experiences - provided you fully engage your mind when you experience something and try to soak up the sensations as much as you possibly can to produce a form of 'super delux' memory of that experience (I like to touch, smell, taste things as much as possible, even if it's just soil). Neither are there such hard limitations on the things I can think up as their are on what I can do in reality. A balance needs to be struck though, since our virtual world is built from going out and empirically experiencing things. Without the latter, you don't have much to work from in the former. But that's not to say that the latter is universally better. This is something people are forced to appreciate (often against their will, and they'll fight accepting it until they die) as they get older and can no longer do all the things they used to be capable of and have to rely on their memories. The majority seems to spend too much energy focusing on the right now, in my opinion, and not mixing it with their memories (this kind of thing is highlighted by how so many people eat junk food and don't really care much about how things taste so long as it's better than nasty, or bother listening carefully to things like classical music). Say we invented a Matrix type interfacing system tomorrow within our Extropy group here. What would probably happen is that 99% of the population of Earth would want to stick with a virtual version of reality, just tweaked a bit so they're all prettier and can fly. I think the remaining 1% would be made up of people like us and hallucinogen fans (like me as well). This facet is demonstrated by the fact that so many people who try hallucinogens try them purely to get 'messed up' and aren't particularly interested in the potential for exploring their understanding of their own consciousness. And that so few people want to try that mindset in the first place, although illegalisation, genuine risks and scare tactics play a part in dissuading a lot of people from trying them, obviously. Perhaps if we were to just create a Matrix type interface that started as a blank template and coloured it's self in with the user's subconscious thoughts, we'd end up with a percentage of the population entering going insane within a few hours. Hallucinogens show us how rapidly people can start having problems when their subconscious is moved closer to their conscious level of awareness, and their effects are quite easy (in my opinion) to ignore - people often don't realise that everyday dreams can be just as horrible and vivid, if not a lot more so, than any bad trip. Instead, a Matrix type blank template would probably need to start somewhere safe (like a simple, fixed room) where the individual could keep it under conscious control, at least at first. Users might never go too far beyond letting a computer probe some of their subconcious for rough ques on what they'd like to happen. After seeing elements of my subconscious force their way straight into my conscious when trying hallucinogens, I really do wonder just how much humans would actually enjoy this experience if it was expanded to it's full potential in a world generated from their deepest thoughts. That barrier between subconscious ramblings into strange ideas and what actually makes it into our consciousness may proove to be necessary to some extent. That barrier is essentially pattern recognition & prefiltering (validity checking & prioritising) of ideas to prevent the consciousness being flooded with every thought the subconscious comes up with. Without it, reality seems to loose it's ordering of priority, all ideas start seemingly equally probable or, worse, more or less probable than they should do. It's more than just pure freedom, it's an absolute mental mess. All the best! John From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Mon Aug 21 05:53:38 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:53:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <014301c6c4e6$266ae660$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> I was going to comment on this earlier but didn't for some reason. My comment was to be along the lines of... "I hope everyone isn't assuming that alternative energy means wind power, hydro & solar" Fusion isn't too far away and will wipe out the above three in terms of what it means for us and how practically it can be deployed in the here and now. Even the guys who build wind turbines for their home will tell you that you need a big turbine to get usable amounts of energy back. And you'll also find that the people who bother buying / building their own in the first place are energy efficient elsewhere as well, so the energy isn't being used in an extravagant, wasteful fashion of living - it's being used sensibly. Alternative energy is another point where I think people are focusing too much in one area... that being generation. And it's followed by trying to make devices ultra efficient. Both are good causes, but it's hard to effect an ultimate answer to the problem when you're approaching from only one of it's failing points. We could make these problems ten times easier by looking at some of the other failing points, like "why do people leave their lights on when they're not in the room?" and "why do people drive 100m down the road and then complain about being fat?". What will happen is that, if you're not careful, as you improve generation and device efficiency, people will just get lazier and you'll be back where you started, just a little further along. What we also need (generation / device efficiency aside) is for people to stop wasting energy when they don't need to and start respecting the general cycle of things. Finally, perhaps we need to think about the possibility of population management if the demand is really so great - think a space elevator is tricky? Try working that one out in a way that isn't going to get your ass kicked when you mention it! >we have no feasible means of taking down all the sub-GEOs, even if we >wanted >to, even assuming advanced nanotech. {8-[ Dammit. {8-[ Rockets? `.^P Best wishes, John From artianista at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 14 13:28:19 2006 From: artianista at sbcglobal.net (Mark Mars) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:28:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: Tinfoil Music on Transhumanism In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20060813190214.05b3b9e8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20060813190214.05b3b9e8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: I'm Mark Mars, I'm a video editor and media professional. My highlights are: Star Writer for MTV's AEON FLUX. National Award fort Best Public Access Television Series in the U.S. and Canada. Member, Milwaukee Press Club. CalArts Film School BFA. My Bio can be found in Marquis' Who's Who In The World (2000). I've been here in Dallas for about one year now and am always looking for work. I'm expanding my career so I can live here in Dallas where my family is. If you would, I've got a link with lots of video work samples you can look at at the link provided below. Very Truly Yours, MARK MARS 1121 Beachview Street Suite 3105 Dallas TX 75218 (214) 321-3808 artianista at sbcglobal.net (iPod or MP4) DEMONSTRATION REELS: http://web.mac.com/artianastemaudit/iWeb/iMars EDUCATION. Graduate, BFA, California Institute of the Arts, School of Film/ Video EXPERIENCE. 2005. Dialog Redevelopment Dialog Revision Direction for Voice Actors MTV Home Entertainment - for original teleplay DVD rerelease of Aeon Flux Animated Series Episodes 2001-2004. Production Assistant Systems Mgt./Maintenance Technical Coordinator - Trona/Heart Of Chaos Productions, Inc. 1999. Staff Writer. Dark Horse Interactive Hellboy: Time Of Disorder, CD-ROM Gameplay 1998. Staff Writer. MTV Networks Aeon Flux, CD-ROM Gameplay (unpublished). 1997. Author (w/ Eric Singer). MTV/Pocket Books "Aeon Flux: The Herodotus File" (softcover) 1997. Writer/Director Production Manager Technical Coordinator - MTV Networks - of six-part, nationally-deployed MTV Radio campaign to promote "Aeon Flux: The Herodotus File" 1994 - 1996. Series Writer Asst. Story Editor - MTV Networks - for MTV's animated series, Aeon Flux. 1994. Member Member of the Advisory Board of Wisconsin Visual Arts, Inc. 1992. Member Member of Wisconsin Painters & Sculptors. 1991. Executive Producer. National Award for Best Television Series in the United States and Canada: Where The Waters Meet, arts programming produced by Mark Mars and Christina Zawadiwsky for City Government Channel 26 of Milwaukee. Alliance for Community Media, 1991. 1992 - 1995; 2006 - Milwaukee Press Club Member. [SOURCE: Who's Who In The World, Millennial Edition (Marquis; 2000).] ACQUISITION (field only): Hitachi FPC-10 U 3-CCU camera w/ Sony Hi-8 dockable recorder POST: STUDIO FACILITIES AVAILABLE Licensed, Owned and Operated In-House and On Premises: INHOUSE PRO HARDWARE (Mac PowerPC) 2.3GHZ G5 DualCore Tower 7gb RAM w/.7tb inboard HD's (Mac OSX Tiger) 1.4GHZ G4 iBook 1.5gb RAM w/.2tb FireWire HD's (Mac OSX Tiger) INHOUSE PRO APPLICATIONS (Mac OS X Tiger) FINAL CUT STUDIO 5: Final Cut Pro 5.0 Adobe AfterEffects 4.1 Motion 2.0 LiveType DVD StudioPro MACROMEDIA STUDIO 8: Flash DreamWeaver FireWorks QuickTime Pro 7.0 DivX Converter 6.0 Windows Media Studio for Macintosh Toast 7.0 Titanium CMX 340x Computer Video Editing System Paltex Elite on-line Edit Controller w/ list management Grass Valley GVG1X Video Switcher w/ E-Mem Grass Valley GVG7H triple re-entry Video Switcher Sony DV Sony Hi-8 Ampex 1" VPR2B Sony 3/4" SP U-Matic Sony RM-450 Editor Oxberry 16mm Animation Camera Acme Producer Services 16mm Optical Printer MISCELLANEOUS: Calibrate NTSC per standard broadcast specifications (IRE) Rotoscoping, articulated matting, optical printer compositing Digital Video Editing Special Effects/Post-Production Specialist Mac OS Administration, Management, Maintenance, Installation and Set-Up Internet and e-mail Administration Applications Administration and Management Filetype Management and Compatibility Integration Word Processing Data Inventory Data Entry Adobe Acrobat Pro 7.0 MSOffice 2004 Pro Word 2004 Entourage PowerPoint Excel On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:03 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Interview: http://music.tinfoil.net/modules.php? > name=News&file=article&sid=1611 > > > Natasha Vita-More > Cultural Strategist.Designer-Media Artist.Futurist > Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute > Member, Association of Professional Futurists > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the > circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what > is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that > is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Darthmencken at aol.com Tue Aug 8 07:27:08 2006 From: Darthmencken at aol.com (Darthmencken at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 03:27:08 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] Census Declaration - Transhumanism as a Religion? Message-ID: <57c.30026d6.320996cc@aol.com> In a message dated 8/7/2006 4:26:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bret at bonfireproductions.com writes: Personally, I don't think you should, even though the modern context and use of the word "religion" could be interpreted in that manner. Seeing that the Latin prefix of religion is rooted somehow in "supernatural" and "superstition". It's like lumping Atheism into religion. People that want to keep clear of a certain mess through choice are simply redefined by mess- participants as another form of mess. Then the meme-pool needs cleaning. Ultimately, I'm sure that there are people that view it as such, it is a personal choice. Philosophy? Yes. Religion? No. Agreed. Humanists, at one time or another, declared their beliefs/belief system to be a "religion." Number one, it isn't. Number two, all this assertion has done for them is serve as a lightning rod for criticism and rhetoric from fundamentalists in the US. Something is a "religion" only if, among other things, it deals explicitly with the supernatural, asserts the existence and reality of such (Whether this is actually true or not is beside the point), endeavors to make at least *some* specific statements about such (There is a "God," or this many gods, this is what It/She/He/They are like, what they like, what they don't, what they've done in the past, present, and future, how "Heaven" or whatever is set up, and what kinds of subordinate beings they have under them and what these are like), and claims that its (the alleged religion's) beliefs, tenets, doctrines, etc. emanate from and are determined by such. Transhumanism, like atheism, Humanism, and also communism, democracy, capitalism, etc. does none of these things. Cheers, Bret Darth Mencken, Dark Lord of Iconoclasm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Darthmencken at aol.com Wed Aug 9 01:10:22 2006 From: Darthmencken at aol.com (Darthmencken at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:10:22 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] clinical trials for stem cell spinal cord injury Message-ID: <539.597ce7b.320a8ffe@aol.com> In a message dated 8/8/2006 3:43:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jrd1415 at gmail.com writes: In some ways it's old news, but it's good news, hopeful news, extropic news. One thing, if and when it proves successful, the whole Luddite stem cell obstructionism is going to suffer a crushing blow. Doubt they'll be finished by it anytime soon, though. Ludds honestly don't care if something works or not. They're just worried that all the psychological coping mechanisms developed to deal with Human mortality, relentlessly hammered into everyone's minds since childhood, will end up becoming useless after all. At the root of their concerns is seeing all that effort (widespread public psychological conditioning to accept what *was once* inevitable) wind up wasted. That story about the "Dragon Tyrant" from Nick Bostrom's personal site, where a huge bureaucracy develops to service the dragon, and Human dignity is conceived in terms of going willingly to be devoured when one's time comes, pretty much sums it up. And sadly, most current governments aren't even as reasonable ultimately as the king in that story. We *really* need more elected officials with a (explicitly or otherwise) transhumanist bent. I understand Natasha once held public office, as a "transhumanist" I believe :-) That's good, hopeful, and extropic as well. Human Tests of Embryonic Stem Cell Treatments Planned A California biotech company expects to begin trials of a treatment for spinal cord injuries next year. http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17256&ch=biotech&sc=&pg=1 Thanx. -- Best, Jeff Davis Darth Mencken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Darthmencken at aol.com Thu Aug 17 00:47:24 2006 From: Darthmencken at aol.com (Darthmencken at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:47:24 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets Message-ID: <4c1.78dbff80.3215169c@aol.com> In a message dated 8/16/2006 7:15:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amara at amara.com writes: Mercury Venus Earth Mars Ceres Jupiter Saturn Uranus Neptune Pluto Charon This is crap! Charon's **not** an independent planet, any more than Earth's Moon! No matter how big it is, or what it's made of, if it orbits another larger body other than a star, it ain't no planet! And Ceres?! Pul-leez! 2003 UB313 *This* one makes sense! If it's bigger than Pluto, when the latter holds that status, what else can it be but a planet? DM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Darthmencken at aol.com Fri Aug 18 23:43:56 2006 From: Darthmencken at aol.com (Darthmencken at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:43:56 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer Message-ID: In a message dated 8/17/2006 9:58:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hkhenson at rogers.com writes: There is something related, human HeLA cells have contaminated cell cultures all over the world. Keith Henson Says to me, better safeguards are needed, if such a robust cancer culture has invaded cell cultures everywhere! Darth Mencken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Aug 11 19:18:02 2006 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] ART: spam forms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060811191802.68614.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> What about human growth hormone advertised? is any of it efficacious? I wouldn't mind so much getting a mess of cool art instead of countless offers of funds and mortgages, get rich quick schemes and adverts for various unusable and inapplicable "enhancements". - s --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 05:18:16 2006 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:18:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridgtoday...] In-Reply-To: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <9b9887c80608202218g6e1ff28fkfa674625494c0bb0@mail.gmail.com> i get all messages. ilsa On 8/20/06, spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury > > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:58 PM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: > > Bainbridgtoday...] > > > > Ok, this problem was apparently mine (and/or Gmail's) and not the > > ExiCh mail server. (byegones) > > Bygones. {8^D > > > ...Keith's messages were getting flagged by gmail as SPAM and ended up in > > my SPAM box even though they were marked by my filters as being from > > the ExiCh list...Robert > > OK cool, now this makes me suspicious. Keith's posts were somehow being > flagged by my system as spam too. I specifically de-spammified him, so now > I get his messages, but why only his? I didn't see any other ExIers in my > spam bucket. Could you-know-who have figured out a way to get his posts to > trigger the spam filters? Would they do such a thing? If so how? Or has > my conspiracy meter gone nuts? > > ExIers, is anyone else out there finding Keith's posts in their spam folder? > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person. john coletrane www.mikyo.com/ilsa http://rewiring.blogspot.com www.hotlux.com/angel.htm From kazvorpal at yahoo.com Wed Aug 16 19:39:52 2006 From: kazvorpal at yahoo.com (KAZ) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060816133841.02557830@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060816193952.2619.qmail@web50407.mail.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Damien Broderick To: ExI chat list Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:42:44 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets > "My very eccentric mother's cook just served us nine pastry coated xylophones" Unfortunately, they didn't have the guts to actually propose Xena as UB232's name, so it almost certainly won't end up being called that, ruining your otherwise perfectly normal and realistic mnemonic. I still think Ceres is a boring name, and anyway 4 Vesta has nearly the same mass, so it's silly that it's disqualified purely because a coincidence has one more slightly more spheroid than the other. Has it occurred to anyone else here that the "binary planet" explanation -- the center of orbit is outside of the two bodies -- is an implicit admission that Jupiter/Sol are a binary star? The common center of orbit between Sol and Jupiter is outside of Sol, it wobbles farther than its own radius. Jupiter is actually a brown dwarf, a protostar which is indefinitely stuck in the first stage of stellar ignition, producing its own heat. They should just take the next step and call Jupiter a star and its gravitationally relaxed moons "planets". How many planets would Jupiter have, then? Oh, and bear in mind that Luna's primary orbit is not around the earth, but around Sol. I'm not kidding; look it up. Maybe it should be a planet, too. In a sense, Luna's more of a planet than Charon. Ironically, Charon's primary orbit is around Pluto, while I /think/ Pluto's primary orbit is around Sol -- Charon is only 11% of Pluto's mass. -- Words of the Sentient: Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices. --Laurence J. Peter E-Mail: KazVorpal at yahoo.com Yahoo Messenger/AIM/AOL: KazVorpal MSN Messenger: KazVorpal at yahoo.com ICQ: 1912557 http://360.yahoo.com/kazvorpal From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 08:12:56 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:12:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today...] In-Reply-To: References: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > Ok, this problem was apparently mine (and/or Gmail's) and not the > ExiCh mail server. > (byegones) > > Keith's messages were getting flagged by gmail as SPAM and ended up in > my SPAM box even though they were marked by my filters as being from > the ExiCh list. (Apparently they will *not* show up in your inbox > *or* the subject thread (within a labeled 'folder') even if they have > labels attached by filters if they are flagged as spam. You have to > explicitly de-spamify the messages to get them filed correctly (learn > something every day I guess). > > I don't know whether gmail identifies only mail in my inbox from Keith > as SPAM or whether it is a general aspect of all gmail SPAM filtering > (if so, Keith ought to complain to Google). [1] > Google's spam filters are secret (to avoid spammers bypassing their rules), but I think the same spam rules apply to all users. I received Keith's emails ok, filtered into the Extropy folder by my own filter. I quite often (about one per week) get messages sent to the Spam folder which also have one of my labels attached. I have to click on it as 'Not Spam' to get it into the inbox, then 'Archive' it to get it filed under the correct label. In theory, clicking 'Not Spam' will eventually persuade gmail to remove that particular message (or email address) from the spam filter. But you might be competing with many other users who are clicking 'Report Spam' against that message. If you have set up any of your own spam filters, they might be wrongly detecting the message as spam. Google say: Make sure you've added your friends' email addresses to your Contacts list. Gmail always delivers messages from your contacts. ------------------------- But, on the other hand, I've just received a group of messages from extropy-chat, some several days old, and out of date sequence, so maybe there is a glitch in the exi mail server. Or maybe moderation is delaying some messages. But that would delay everyone receiving the messages, not just Robert. BillK From eugen at leitl.org Mon Aug 21 09:22:26 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:22:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridg today...] In-Reply-To: References: <200608202307.k7KN744c025247@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20060821092226.GR14701@leitl.org> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 09:12:56AM +0100, BillK wrote: > But, on the other hand, I've just received a group of messages from > extropy-chat, some several days old, and out of date sequence, so > maybe there is a glitch in the exi mail server. Or maybe moderation Nope, just some delayed moderator action (new subscribers are moderated by default). > is delaying some messages. But that would delay everyone receiving the > messages, not just Robert. If any of you are still receiving mail from the listserv only sporadically, and are sure it's not your or your ISP's spam filtering being the culprit -- please contact me offlist. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Mon Aug 21 11:23:36 2006 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:23:36 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <014301c6c4e6$266ae660$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <014301c6c4e6$266ae660$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> Message-ID: <1156159417.9248.119.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Mon, 2006-08-21 at 06:53 +0100, John wrote: > I was going to comment on this earlier but didn't for some reason. > > My comment was to be along the lines of... "I hope everyone isn't assuming > that alternative energy means wind power, hydro & solar" > > Fusion isn't too far away and will wipe out the above three in terms of what > it means for us and how practically it can be deployed in the here and now. > Depending on your definition of far away. The ITER people say the Fast Track version of their plan, which needs many a billion being pumped in by about 7 countries, doesn't see commercial reactors till 2050. Big hot fusion is not going to come out of a garage. If you are hoping for self-rep nanotech to cheapen the building process, it seems to me that self-repped massive solar panel fields would be easier to design than a very complex reactor, and once they are built, bothering with fusion would seem less urgent. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Aug 21 11:40:47 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] META: mailing list problems was [Re: Bainbridgtoday...] In-Reply-To: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608210351.k7L3pHHO025853@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <36937.72.236.103.205.1156160447.squirrel@main.nc.us> I'm getting Keith's messages ok, but this morning I'm getting a number of new-to-me posts from August 8 and 9 and 14 and 16. Now. Which is very strange, IMHO. Regards, MB From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 11:52:45 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:52:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/18/06, Darthmencken at aol.com wrote: > Says to me, better safeguards are needed, if such a robust cancer > culture has invaded cell cultures everywhere! I'm not so sure that Keith's statement is true as much today (after they realized that HeLa cells could keep going and going and going...). It isn't unusual for underpaid graduate students (or undergrads) who would be charged with maintaining the cell cultures to be somewhat careless in their work. In fact being very careful in biology (or medical) research is one of the things that makes it expensive because you have to dispose of working equipment, constantly sterilize everything, etc. The classic example goes back to the cell culture experiments that produced the dogma that cells were immortal which was subsequently disproven (with significant controversy) by Hayflick. Cell culture is still to quite an extent a mixture of science and technique and if you botch the technique you get messy results. Robert From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 12:26:18 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:26:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608202214v18362d42rc85b05936c56b39a@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 10:14 PM 8/20/2006 -0700, Michael wrote: (Michael) > > >It's obvious that rockets won't work for serious space exploration, > > >but then neither will space elevators. (Keith) > > You are certain on this point? > >The point is moot anyway, because we aren't going into space. Not far anyway. > > > I think in the long run people will upload and not bother going into space > > or anywhere else for that matter. Space elevators are like O'Neill > > colonies, something with a very short window if they happen at all. >Agreed. Rather than spread out from the Earth, it is far more likely >that we will condense into a sphere perhaps the size of a basketball. >A meter is worlds away when your mind is running at 10^30 ops/sec. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/mnr/st/std076 "Such a vast increase in wealth in a short time is without precedent. But over centuries, perhaps not. Vernor Vinge (in a personal communication) thinks that in many ways individuals of today have more wealth than a thirteenth-century nation state. Isabella I had to hock the crown jewels to cross the Atlantic, something most of us can afford without credit. It is hard to compare wealth across a few centuries, but the computer on which I wrote this article is more powerful than the ones the government of the United States could afford only forty years ago. "The growth of wealth on this scale might make the sum of all the technological and social changes since we started chipping flint look tame. What the technological applications will permit us to do is easier to predict than what we might actually do: the options seem limitless at this point. For example, the human race (or some significant fraction of it) might use nanotechnology to move into hardware where thinking and social interaction went on a million times faster. Such a society might "collapse" into 600 foot spheres to minimize speed-of-light communication delays, . . ." (Article originally written in 1987, this was added before paper publication in 1990) This has been discussed here and on the SL4 list without a definitive resolution. Smaller is better for communications, but engineers worry about cooling. Other places I have mentioned sinking uploaded societies in the deep ocean for cooling. The problem is *when.* If it is clear that humankind will leave flesh behind in ten years there is no need to embark on an energy project to feed 6+ billion people. If uploading takes 30-40 years then we need a massive energy source coming on line to displace the current ones. Given that war memes do well in societies seeing a bleak future, it might be worth starting even if you think uploading will come before a full scale space elevator could be completed just to keep the war memes down. An unfriendly AI emerging as the result of desperate war research is not the stuff of pleasant dreams. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 13:38:43 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:38:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: <00ef01c6c4e1$2e043070$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821083118.02e2fb78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 06:18 AM 8/21/2006 +0100, John wrote: > > I venture to guess not as much as I have. :-) > >Maybe... 8^P > > > None of these are a problem. The output of the sun is enough to launch > > 1500 tons per second to near light speed. > >Not a problem, if you have an engine with an output similar to that of a >star burning 700 million tonnes of hydrogen per second in a fusion reaction. That sounds way high. The solar burn rate is about 1500 tons of mass to energy per second. The mass deficit is a little under 1% so fusing 150,000 tons per second would do it. snip > > Not really. Laser up to the task of pushing ships between stars have no > > problem sending information back to the ones who stay at home. > >I'm not entirely sure about that. Over such distances, the beam's >degredation has a huge impact on it's data capacity. Transmitting a wave of >brute force energy for something to ride on is a lot easier than getting >massive quantities of data into it. It has other problems too. "What happened to the Earth?"--a report presented at the Far Edge Party. Chairman: "As you all know, Earth went out of communication 240 millennia ago after a few weak garbled messages. Captain De Long's ship was closest and was dispatched back to the home planet to see what had happened. Even being closest, the message took thousands of years to catch up with him and 25,000 years for him to get back to the Solar system. I will now turn this over to Captain De Long. Captain De Long: "Thank you Mr. Chairman. As most of you know, the intention was to relay our travel logs and scientific data back to earth using our launch lasers through the earliest star systems we touched on. It was a condition for the energy and material used to launch our ships. After the lasers pushed our ships to cruise velocity, they reoriented toward earth and the beam was modulated over and over with the accumulated petabytes of information from exploring that system. "We now know the ship and crew duplication program had a programming error. It reset the target location back to the home planet at ever duplication instead of the previous location. Initially there were only 100 of those multi Tw data beams impinging on the solar system. Then 200, 400, 800, . . . . even though they were coming from further away, the power grew exponentially." "Fortunately, by the time we reached the solar system the near ones had shut off so the earth's sky was just bright instead of killing bright." "We didn't land, the earth was still too hot to support life, the seas had boiled, mountains melted." "As my chief information officer said, while gazing down at the mess: 'A clear case of burnout from information overload!'" Keith Henson From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 13:57:28 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:57:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/mnr/st/std076 > > This has been discussed here and on the SL4 list without a definitive > resolution. Smaller is better for communications, but engineers worry > about cooling. Other places I have mentioned sinking uploaded societies in > the deep ocean for cooling. > > The problem is *when.* If it is clear that humankind will leave flesh > behind in ten years there is no need to embark on an energy project to feed > 6+ billion people. If uploading takes 30-40 years then we need a massive > energy source coming on line to displace the current ones. > > Given that war memes do well in societies seeing a bleak future, it might > be worth starting even if you think uploading will come before a full scale > space elevator could be completed just to keep the war memes down. An > unfriendly AI emerging as the result of desperate war research is not the > stuff of pleasant dreams. > The whole field of AI was founded by WWII military research. The military (and civilians) have already seen a huge payback from their efforts. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan is driving more funding and research, mostly via DARPA. See: Darpa projects include the Challenge for robot vehicles, language translation, managing autonomous software agents, unmanned air vehicles for observation and combat, Lifelog cognitive computing, swarms of bot devices, etc. Also Lockheed Martin showcases air, water and underwater unmanned vehicles "Our customers want unmanned systems that can operate autonomously while integrating and communicating with each other and with other operational systems, whether these systems are in space, in the air, on the ground, or in or under the water. I expect all these projects to grow and gradually merge into something you might call a powerful human intelligence / force multiplier. It won't be self-conscious AI, but I really, really hope our side get there first. BillK From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Mon Aug 21 15:06:47 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:06:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><014301c6c4e6$266ae660$892a0751@heritagekd9czj> <1156159417.9248.119.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <008101c6c533$6cb17150$4d230751@heritagekd9czj> > Depending on your definition of far away. The ITER people say the Fast > Track version of their plan, which needs many a billion being pumped in > by about 7 countries, doesn't see commercial reactors till 2050. Big > hot fusion is not going to come out of a garage. > If you are hoping for self-rep nanotech to cheapen the building process, > it seems to me that self-repped massive solar panel fields would be > easier to design than a very complex reactor, and once they are built, > bothering with fusion would seem less urgent. Indeed, however fusion will also carry a lot of potential spin off advances in terms of how we can manipulate matter and utilise things for our own benefit. All the best, John From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Mon Aug 21 15:32:34 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:32:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821083118.02e2fb78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <008c01c6c537$06bd72f0$4d230751@heritagekd9czj> > That sounds way high. The solar burn rate is about 1500 tons of mass to > energy per second. The mass deficit is a little under 1% so fusing > 150,000 > tons per second would do it. According to my resources... [grin] "The Sun's energy output (3.86e33 ergs/second or 386 billion billion megawatts) is produced by nuclear fusion reactions. Each second about 700,000,000 tons of hydrogen are converted to about 695,000,000 tons of helium and 5,000,000 tons (=3.86e33 ergs) of energy..." But anyway, our probe probably wouldn't weigh anywhere near the weight of the mass ejected by the sun and we can probably do with accelerations under 0 to lightspeed in 1 second. I think, alongside containing and controlling that kind of quantity of energy, one of the other big problems will be harvesting it and the ethics of doing so. We have a hard time now powering lightbulbs and cars. When we're thinking of sending something that far, I think we'll have to really stop and think... "is it worth it?". I suddenly realised, the Enterprise is like a guy driving back and forth to the store at the end of a road in one of those huge opencast mine trucks you see on "the world's biggest" programmes. They scoot from place to place to do very little, at a gigantic energy cost. I think if we follow that mentality too far we'll end up having to think in terms of "which star system should I destroy today to go shopping?". "There are loads of stars, no problem... oh, we ran out.". Self preserving / serving logic (like us) exploits energy transitions to push it's self along and prevent / retard it's own thermodynamic decay. It does so often by compressing the temporal parameters of another energy transition it can tap into (nuclear fission for example, or setting fire to a lump of coal which would otherwise oxidise, very, very slowly over the eons). In doing so, it of coarse accelerates the rate at which that transition reaches thermodynamic equilibrium. Humans won't exist in their present form in a thermodynamically balanced environment (we rely on things being unbalanced to power ATP pumps etc). I think things like the Enterprise will end up having their mission prefaced by a review at "The board of thermodynamic ethics & equality - lead by John". "Our mission will be to visit the Boleans so's that ensign Harry Kim can pick up a new picture for his wall" - "REFUSED; additional, recommend C. Janeway is reassigned to refuse maintainance deputy" snip > "As my chief information officer said, while gazing down at the mess: 'A > clear case of burnout from information overload!'" Quite! All the best, John From mstriz at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 16:29:28 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:29:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > >High altitude wind power is sufficient to supply the world's energy > >needs, according to many estimations. > The engineering problems for this are *worse* than a space elevator and > hundreds of power satellites. I disagree that it is /worse/. Many things are hard until they are solved. > >Other than that, energy needs will be met with resources available > >locally: hydroelectric where rivers are available, solar at low > >latitudes, etc. With advanced photovoltaic technology, every building > >could be energy self-sufficient. > > I agree with you, but I think you are talking post nanotechnology to do > it. I don't see this inside what can be done pre singularity. I think this can be done NOW, without transhumanist technology like nano or AGI. It takes a combination of alternative energy technology AND new efficiencies so that we cut energy consumption at the same time. It should be enough to be wasteful, instead of really, really, really wasteful. > Do you understand the EP model of wars? Yes, but the model that you like to tout only accounts for a percentage of the variance. Also, I don't believe we will face the energy blight that you suggest, so the subsequent argument is moot. It really depends on when Peak Oil happens. In the worst case scenario, it happened on 5 December 2005 (or somewhere around there -- they calculated it to the day). In the best case scenario, we have 50-100 years, so if the experts know anything, your probability distribution is somewhere between there. But oil won't just dry up overnight. It will decrease along a low slope over decades as the oil fields we find become smaller and smaller (by necessity it's easier to find the biggest ones), and the cost of extraction will increase. We have some empirical data on how far supply has to drop below demand before catastrophe occurs. In the early 1970s, when OPEC decided to cap its oil production, supply fell behind demand by about 10%, and the price of gas quadruped. In California, when natural gas supply fell about 10% behind demand, the cost of NG also quadrupled. We can conclude that supply only has to fall behind demand by about 15% before we reach an economic catastrophe. That would happen about 20 years after Peak Oil. So even in the worst case scenario, we have another 20 years. But looking at the probability distribution, the *most likely* time of Peak Oil is in about 20-30 years, which gives us 40-50 years within which alternative energy must take over. That's probably enough time, but we shouldn't be sitting on our hands at this point. --Martin From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Aug 21 19:09:38 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:09:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:29 PM 8/21/2006 -0400, Martin wrote: >On 8/20/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > > >High altitude wind power is sufficient to supply the world's energy > > >needs, according to many estimations. > > > The engineering problems for this are *worse* than a space elevator and > > hundreds of power satellites. > >I disagree that it is /worse/. Many things are hard until they are solved. I don't know what level I should try to explain this. Can you tell me where you are in technical background? > > >Other than that, energy needs will be met with resources available > > >locally: hydroelectric where rivers are available, solar at low > > >latitudes, etc. With advanced photovoltaic technology, every building > > >could be energy self-sufficient. > > > > I agree with you, but I think you are talking post nanotechnology to do > > it. I don't see this inside what can be done pre singularity. > >I think this can be done NOW, without transhumanist technology like >nano or AGI. It takes a combination of alternative energy technology >AND new efficiencies so that we cut energy consumption at the same >time. It should be enough to be wasteful, instead of really, really, >really wasteful. > > Do you understand the EP model of wars? > >Yes, but the model that you like to tout only accounts for a >percentage of the variance. Ok, based on evolutionary biology (you can include memetics) explain the rest of the variance. >Also, I don't believe we will face the energy blight that you suggest, >so the subsequent argument is moot. It really depends on when Peak >Oil happens. In the worst case scenario, it happened on 5 December >2005 (or somewhere around there -- they calculated it to the day). In >the best case scenario, we have 50-100 years, so if the experts know >anything, your probability distribution is somewhere between there. > >But oil won't just dry up overnight. It will decrease along a low >slope over decades as the oil fields we find become smaller and >smaller (by necessity it's easier to find the biggest ones), and the >cost of extraction will increase. We have some empirical data on how >far supply has to drop below demand before catastrophe occurs. > >In the early 1970s, when OPEC decided to cap its oil production, >supply fell behind demand by about 10%, and the price of gas >quadruped. In California, when natural gas supply fell about 10% >behind demand, the cost of NG also quadrupled. We can conclude that >supply only has to fall behind demand by about 15% before we reach an >economic catastrophe. That would happen about 20 years after Peak >Oil. I think you are not including the rapid increase in China's consumption. >So even in the worst case scenario, we have another 20 years. But >looking at the probability distribution, the *most likely* time of >Peak Oil is in about 20-30 years, which gives us 40-50 years within >which alternative energy must take over. > >That's probably enough time, but we shouldn't be sitting on our hands >at this point. I agree. I see two approaches that don't contribute to the greenhouse gas problem and are on a scale to replace oil. Do you see others? Keith From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 22:40:35 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:40:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608211540h621397efh83622827f97a12c2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > "The growth of wealth on this scale might make the sum of all the > technological and social changes since we started chipping flint look > tame. What the technological applications will permit us to do is easier > to predict than what we might actually do: the options seem limitless at > this point. For example, the human race (or some significant fraction of > it) might use nanotechnology to move into hardware where thinking and > social interaction went on a million times faster. Such a society might > "collapse" into 600 foot spheres to minimize speed-of-light communication > delays, . . ." > > (Article originally written in 1987, this was added before paper > publication in 1990) And I thought I was being original. In 1987, here I am being all excited about being able to count to 100, and meanwhile you're talking about all of human civilization collapsing into a computronium sphere 600 feet in diameter. My preferred name for such a concept is "Rainbow Sphere", because of the huge multitude of cultures, individuals, objects, and experiences that would all be encompassed within that small space. > This has been discussed here and on the SL4 list without a definitive > resolution. Smaller is better for communications, but engineers worry > about cooling. Other places I have mentioned sinking uploaded societies in > the deep ocean for cooling. The deep ocean is extremely hot relative to the best engineered cooling solutions (liquid helium for example), and I don't see any reason why this sphere can't be suspended in the vacuum of outer space. Also keep in mind reversible computation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing And Robin Hanson's excellent paper on reversible agents: http://hanson.gmu.edu/reverse.html When a civilization has control of every atom, waste heat need not be produced. Waste heat is defined as atoms getting out of place and bumping into each other. In a civilization with atomic control over its own matterspace, you can simply catch the atoms and reroute them before they bump into each other destructively. > The problem is *when.* If it is clear that humankind will leave flesh > behind in ten years there is no need to embark on an energy project to feed > 6+ billion people. If uploading takes 30-40 years then we need a massive > energy source coming on line to displace the current ones. It could happen very quickly with recursively self-improving intelligence. From the perspective of the gaian biosphere's evolutionary processes, "this human thing" exploded everywhere in the blink of an eye. Intelligence building intelligence could easily do the same. It is unknown how long this will take though. So let's cross our fingers that ITER goes online smoothly. And that we build cars and power plants that can take ethanol. > Given that war memes do well in societies seeing a bleak future, it might > be worth starting even if you think uploading will come before a full scale > space elevator could be completed just to keep the war memes down. An > unfriendly AI emerging as the result of desperate war research is not the > stuff of pleasant dreams. I'm not too excited about advanced weaponry and UAV swarms being mass produced using Phoenix nanofactories, neither. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From sentience at pobox.com Mon Aug 21 23:22:54 2006 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:22:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608211540h621397efh83622827f97a12c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <51ce64f10608211540h621397efh83622827f97a12c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EA404E.3030303@pobox.com> Michael Anissimov wrote: > > When a civilization has control of every atom, waste heat need not be > produced. Waste heat is defined as atoms getting out of place and > bumping into each other. In a civilization with atomic control over > its own matterspace, you can simply catch the atoms and reroute them > before they bump into each other destructively. When you erase bits, you've got to produce waste heat - for example, radiate a photon, or dump a vibration into a cool molecule's vibratory degree of freedom. You can't "catch and reroute" the motions of your waste heat, because observing the motions would cost as much heat as you gained. Otherwise you'd be able to produce a perpetual motion machine. Waste heat must be produced by any civilization that is not completely reversible - even if that civilization has atomic control over its own matterspace. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mstriz at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 01:17:00 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:17:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > >I disagree that it is /worse/. Many things are hard until they are solved. > > I don't know what level I should try to explain this. Can you tell me > where you are in technical background? I have a BS in biology, an MS in biology, and am currently working on an MD. I've taken college level physics and scored a 12 (91 - 96 percentile) on the Physical Sciences section of the MCAT. You can be as technical as you want to be. > >I think this can be done NOW, without transhumanist technology like > >nano or AGI. It takes a combination of alternative energy technology > >AND new efficiencies so that we cut energy consumption at the same > >time. It should be enough to be wasteful, instead of really, really, > >really wasteful. I want to elaborate on the fact that cutting energy consumption should be part of the solution, and we already have ways of doing it. A couple of 100 W light bulbs consume more energy than a computer (running routine tasks) or a television, and many other home electronic devices (http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/appliances/index.cfm/mytopic=10040). Lights consume a considerable fraction of our home energy, and fluorescent lights with the same lux consume 75% less energy (I recently replaced some 40 W bulbs with 10 W fluorescent ones). Replacing all our lighting with fluorescent bulbs, using energy efficient appliances, heat pumps, etc., keeping the temperature low, keeping lights off when not in use, driving a car with > 40 mpg (or even > 50 mpg) fuel economy, these are all things we could do right now to cut our total energy consumption almost in half. We may eventually be able to cut it 80%. I remember a few months ago somebody pointing out that advances in materials science will allow us to build 500 lb cars, which could improve fuel economy to > 100 mpg. That's great, but it's already hard enough trying to convince people to trade their 3 ton vehicles for 1 ton vehicles. Good luck convincing them to buy quarter ton vehicles. Building the technology is only half the battle. Winning the culture war to get that technology adopted is the other half. An oil/coal shortfall may eventually force people to adopt that technology, but it will be less painful if we start winning the meme war now. As transhumanists, people who consider ourselves technologically savvy, we should be on that forefront. > > > Do you understand the EP model of wars? > > > >Yes, but the model that you like to tout only accounts for a > >percentage of the variance. > > Ok, based on evolutionary biology (you can include memetics) explain the > rest of the variance. There are lots of reasons why people go to war besides an evolved mechanism for profiteering being triggered by a blight. [snip: predictions on the timing on Peak Oil] > I think you are not including the rapid increase in China's consumption. No, those predictions include the growth of China's and India's populations. > I agree. I see two approaches that don't contribute to the greenhouse gas > problem and are on a scale to replace oil. Do you see others? Which ones are those? I can think of many parts to the solution. Switching to renewable energy, though much more costly now, has hidden savings, such as decreases in smog-related incidents of disease, decreases in the attendant health care costs, reductions in military budgets needed to defend overseas oil interests, increased safety from terrorist threats when we decentralize our energy infrastructure, and the collapse of various despotic regimes when we are no longer forced to do business with them. Let's go. --Martin From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 01:45:46 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:45:46 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608211540h621397efh83622827f97a12c2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:40 PM 8/21/2006 -0700, you wrote: >On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: snip > > This has been discussed here and on the SL4 list without a definitive > > resolution. Smaller is better for communications, but engineers worry > > about cooling. Other places I have mentioned sinking uploaded societies in > > the deep ocean for cooling. > >The deep ocean is extremely hot relative to the best engineered >cooling solutions (liquid helium for example), and I don't see any >reason why this sphere can't be suspended in the vacuum of outer >space. This is something Eric Drexler and I investigated at length back in 1979 when we wrote a paper on gigantic radiators for use in space. It's not easy to dump waste heat in space. If the radiators are operating at room temperature, they can get rid of about 1/4 kw of waste heat per square meter. And large radiators have diseconomy of scale. If you make a radiator 100 times as large it, it weighs ten times as much per kw. It is really hard to beat a planet covered with liquids and gases for a heat sink, a point Poul Anderson wrote a story around long ago. >Also keep in mind reversible computation: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing > >And Robin Hanson's excellent paper on reversible agents: >http://hanson.gmu.edu/reverse.html > >When a civilization has control of every atom, waste heat need not be >produced. See Eliezer's comment. He has it right. >Waste heat is defined as atoms getting out of place and >bumping into each other. In a civilization with atomic control over >its own matterspace, you can simply catch the atoms and reroute them >before they bump into each other destructively. > > > The problem is *when.* If it is clear that humankind will leave flesh > > behind in ten years there is no need to embark on an energy project to feed > > 6+ billion people. If uploading takes 30-40 years then we need a massive > > energy source coming on line to displace the current ones. > >It could happen very quickly with recursively self-improving >intelligence. The operative word is "could." It may go fast once it starts, but we have no idea of how long it is going to take to get to the point it takes off. > From the perspective of the gaian biosphere's >evolutionary processes, "this human thing" exploded everywhere in the >blink of an eye. Intelligence building intelligence could easily do >the same. > >It is unknown how long this will take though. So let's cross our >fingers that ITER goes online smoothly. And that we build cars and >power plants that can take ethanol. Ethanol is just barely a positive energy return. If they didn't cut the cane by hand in Brazil with extremely low cost labor, it probably would not work at all. > > Given that war memes do well in societies seeing a bleak future, it might > > be worth starting even if you think uploading will come before a full scale > > space elevator could be completed just to keep the war memes down. An > > unfriendly AI emerging as the result of desperate war research is not the > > stuff of pleasant dreams. > >I'm not too excited about advanced weaponry and UAV swarms being mass >produced using Phoenix nanofactories, neither. If you don't want war, then you need to expand the economy fast enough to get ahead of the population. Energy from space would let you do a whole lot of things. For example, the cost of aluminum is mostly electricity. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 01:53:50 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:53:50 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bainbridg today in Transvision06 on personality capture vs info-resurrection In-Reply-To: <008c01c6c537$06bd72f0$4d230751@heritagekd9czj> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060820104842.02ed2ec0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821083118.02e2fb78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821214820.02f41b10@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 04:32 PM 8/21/2006 +0100, John wrote: > > That sounds way high. The solar burn rate is about 1500 tons of mass to > > energy per second. The mass deficit is a little under 1% so fusing > > 150,000 > > tons per second would do it. > >According to my resources... [grin] > >"The Sun's energy output (3.86e33 ergs/second or 386 billion billion >megawatts) is produced by nuclear fusion reactions. Each second about >700,000,000 tons of hydrogen are converted to about 695,000,000 tons of >helium and 5,000,000 tons (=3.86e33 ergs) of energy..." You are right. That's what comes of using memory instead of the Wikipedia. But the point is that there is plenty of energy to get from one star to the next if you tape the star's energy. Keith From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Aug 22 01:58:48 2006 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:58:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2006, at 21:45, Keith Henson wrote: > Ethanol is just barely a positive energy return. If they didn't > cut the > cane by hand in Brazil with extremely low cost labor, it probably > would not > work at all. Only if you use food-grade cane (or corn) to make it. Fermentation processes in bioreactors can produce it quite efficiently and at reasonably high return rates. Or many other small molecules of that sort. DuPont, for example, has designed a bioreactor that uses transgenic microorganisms to make propylene glycol. (Which they then react with good old from-dead-dinosaurs terephthalic acid to make polytrimethylene terephthalate and claim its a "green plastic." Tradename is Sorona.) The real issue with ethanol isn't the labor costs or the red herring of pesticide/fertilizer usage: the real issue is the water-ethanol azeotrope, which means distillation becomes a real bitch. Some folks (I forget which group) are looking at using t-butanol instead, which has a lower vapor pressure, can be pipeline transported and has a better energy density (but is harder to make using conventional processes) B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 02:23:51 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:23:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:17 PM 8/21/2006 -0400, you wrote: >On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > > >I disagree that it is /worse/. Many things are hard until they are > solved. > > > > I don't know what level I should try to explain this. Can you tell me > > where you are in technical background? > >I have a BS in biology, an MS in biology, and am currently working on >an MD. I've taken college level physics and scored a 12 (91 - 96 >percentile) on the Physical Sciences section of the MCAT. > >You can be as technical as you want to be. Unfortunately that might not help much. Engineering is the practice of the paranoid, always worrying about thing like peak wind loads, icing, freeze thaw cycles, peak electrical system loading and the like. Most of the time, most of the structure is just sitting there, unneeded. Along comes Katrina and you discover how much more you needed. Relative to earth, space is benign. I would expect a power satellite to sit in orbit with little maintenance for decades > > >I think this can be done NOW, without transhumanist technology like > > >nano or AGI. It takes a combination of alternative energy technology > > >AND new efficiencies so that we cut energy consumption at the same > > >time. It should be enough to be wasteful, instead of really, really, > > >really wasteful. > >I want to elaborate on the fact that cutting energy consumption should >be part of the solution, and we already have ways of doing it. A >couple of 100 W light bulbs consume more energy than a computer >(running routine tasks) or a television, and many other home >electronic devices >(http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/appliances/index.cfm/mytopic=10040). > Lights consume a considerable fraction of our home energy, and >fluorescent lights with the same lux consume 75% less energy (I >recently replaced some 40 W bulbs with 10 W fluorescent ones). > >Replacing all our lighting with fluorescent bulbs, using energy >efficient appliances, heat pumps, etc., keeping the temperature low, >keeping lights off when not in use, driving a car with > 40 mpg (or >even > 50 mpg) fuel economy, these are all things we could do right >now to cut our total energy consumption almost in half. We may >eventually be able to cut it 80%. Some things like heat pumps that worked with 100% efficiency are still going to draw a lot of power just due to thermodynamics and the relative temperatures. And while conserving is a good idea, such a path takes us out to where there is no slack in the system. snip > > > > Do you understand the EP model of wars? > > > > > >Yes, but the model that you like to tout only accounts for a > > >percentage of the variance. > > > > Ok, based on evolutionary biology (you can include memetics) explain the > > rest of the variance. > >There are lots of reasons why people go to war besides an evolved >mechanism for profiteering being triggered by a blight. Please name them. I am not trying to be hard on you. I am profoundly disturbed by the EP model and hope someone can come up with a way out of the dire future it predicts. >[snip: predictions on the timing on Peak Oil] > > > I think you are not including the rapid increase in China's consumption. > >No, those predictions include the growth of China's and India's populations. Consumption is growing much faster than population. > > I agree. I see two approaches that don't contribute to the greenhouse gas > > problem and are on a scale to replace oil. Do you see others? > >Which ones are those? I can think of many parts to the solution. > >Switching to renewable energy, Satellite solar power is renewable and offers the prospect that it will be *much* less expensive than current or projected sources. >though much more costly now, has hidden >savings, such as decreases in smog-related incidents of disease, >decreases in the attendant health care costs, reductions in military >budgets needed to defend overseas oil interests, increased safety from >terrorist threats when we decentralize our energy infrastructure, and >the collapse of various despotic regimes when we are no longer forced >to do business with them. > >Let's go. You might consider that I have been in this business for over 30 years now. Had we done power sats starting back then, the US would be a major energy exporter and we have no reason to be concerned about oil producers. We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. Keith Henson From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Aug 22 02:19:59 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Change in Vatican Observatory. :( In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <37615.72.236.102.108.1156213199.squirrel@main.nc.us> Well, this sounds depressing. http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2006/08/catholics_retreat_into_dogma_a.php Regards, MB From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 22 03:32:52 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:32:52 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608220343.k7M3hAv4029532@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > On Aug 21, 2006, at 21:45, Keith Henson wrote: > > > Ethanol is just barely a positive energy return. If they didn't > > cut the cane by hand in Brazil with extremely low cost labor, it probably would not work at all... I was up at the ranch last week cleaning out the creek where the beavers had gnawed trees and created a gnarly mess. Couldn't we train these toothy sons-a-bitches to cut cane or corn, then haul the stalks to a collection bin for distillation? They can be manufactured in arbitrary quantities and fed on the waste products. They could be fed and housed much more cheaply than human labor. It would be even cooler if we could train them to plant and weed as well as harvest the crops. We would tap into their neurosystems in order to give them pleasant endorphins if they do the right thing, and nothing if they do otherwise. I don't see why not, we make horses, cattle and dogs work for us, so why not beavers? spike From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 22 07:07:58 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:07:58 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060822070758.GW14701@leitl.org> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 10:23:51PM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > Relative to earth, space is benign. I would expect a power satellite to > sit in orbit with little maintenance for decades Current PV arrays are already warranted for 20-25 years weathering, and they don't require to be launched, and produce power where it's consumed. PV is already economic off the grid, and will probably break-even with fossil within a decade, depending on how robust nonrenewable energy price development is. > > > I think you are not including the rapid increase in China's consumption. > > > >No, those predictions include the growth of China's and India's populations. > > Consumption is growing much faster than population. I agree that China alone is going to get quite problematic, what little I know of the problem set there from a few pages from Diamond's "Collapse". > >Switching to renewable energy, > > Satellite solar power is renewable and offers the prospect that it will be > *much* less expensive than current or projected sources. I agree that a launch cost drop to LEO by an order of magnitude would make solar satellite power cost-effective. But launch costs are far more unyielding than new PV technologies to reduce PV price by an order of magnitude (less, IIRC 2-3x would do). Installation costs are not relevant for new stuctures, designed around energy production by double duty. > You might consider that I have been in this business for over 30 years > now. Had we done power sats starting back then, the US would be a major > energy exporter and we have no reason to be concerned about oil producers. The economics of it doesn't work even now, and it would have looked even worse 30 years ago. > We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy > problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. Efficient burners (recently, pellet burners), house insulation, efficient light ICEs, thermal and PV solar and wind is doing very well here. If you remove the fossil volatility by a tax ratchet the market will do the rest quite efficiently, starting with the small end, but eventually arriving at the top end (solar power satellites). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Aug 22 07:28:47 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:28:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] New Odyssey animation/Another one References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <004d01c6c5bc$9e141e80$0200a8c0@Nano> Hi guys, I have a new zoom fractal movie called "Zenith", http://www.nanogirl.com/personal/zenith.htm this one actually zooms into one single fractal continuously. OH and guess what I cc'd Mandelbrot himself on the release of my "Odyssey" animation and this morning there was a reply sitting in my in box! He liked it and wish he had known about it in time to show at an exhibit that is going on in Madrid. Unfortunately I had only just finished it. How exciting is that! Don't forget to come over and talk on my blog my friends, Gina ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller To: lcorbin at tsoft.com ; ExI chat list Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] New Odyssey animation Dear friends, please enjoy my completed fun with fractals animation called "Odyssey" scored with the music of Mozart by visiting my website here: http://www.nanogirl.com/personal/odyssey.htm Feel free to leave comments at the blog about my new animation at the blog here: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ I hope you like it! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Participating Member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 12:31:22 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:31:22 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <20060822070758.GW14701@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:07 AM 8/22/2006 +0200, you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 10:23:51PM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > > > Relative to earth, space is benign. I would expect a power satellite to > > sit in orbit with little maintenance for decades > >Current PV arrays are already warranted for 20-25 years weathering, >and they don't require to be launched, and produce power where it's >consumed. PV is already economic off the grid, and will probably >break-even with fossil within a decade, depending on how robust >nonrenewable energy price development is. Do you go to bed when the sun goes down? > > > > I think you are not including the rapid increase in China's > consumption. > > > > > >No, those predictions include the growth of China's and India's > populations. > > > > Consumption is growing much faster than population. > >I agree that China alone is going to get quite problematic, what little >I know of the problem set there from a few pages from Diamond's "Collapse". > > > >Switching to renewable energy, > > > > Satellite solar power is renewable and offers the prospect that it will be > > *much* less expensive than current or projected sources. > >I agree that a launch cost drop to LEO by an order of magnitude would >make solar satellite power cost-effective. Not at all. Even two orders of magnitude is no where near enough. Besides, you don't want to reduce cost to LEO, you want to reduce it to GEO. >But launch costs are far more >unyielding That's the point of a mechanical (moving cable) space elevator. Once built up to a mature size, it is lifting 2000 metric tons per day and using a Gw of power. In 5 days it puts up 10,000 tons, which is enough for a 5 Gw (at the ground) power sat. So a power sat pays back the energy used to lift it to orbit in *one day*. To put it in monetary terms, a Gw hour lifts about a hundred tons. At ten cent/kwh that's a million dollars to lift 200,000 pounds or $5 a pound. Once you get the first few on line, I can't see power being rated at more than a cent/kwh, which means 50 cents a pound to GEO . . . . and falling. At some point you start building stuff our of asteroid materials just to avoid shipping on earth's surface! >than new PV technologies to reduce PV price by an order of >magnitude (less, IIRC 2-3x would do). Installation costs are not relevant >for new stuctures, designed around energy production by double duty. > > > You might consider that I have been in this business for over 30 years > > now. Had we done power sats starting back then, the US would be a major > > energy exporter and we have no reason to be concerned about oil producers. > >The economics of it doesn't work even now, and it would have looked >even worse 30 years ago. The economics were fine. See the article in Science written by O'Neill and vetted by half a dozen economists. The problem was that the overall chain of complexity of mining the moon for materials, launching them off the moon, refining them in orbit to what you needed and then building the power sats was more than investors could cope with. The payback time was a bit long, and the business went through a fair amount of money (some small fraction of what the Iraq war has cost) before it made money hand over fist. > > We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy > > problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. > >Efficient burners (recently, pellet burners), house insulation, >efficient light ICEs, thermal and PV solar and wind is doing very >well here. If you remove the fossil volatility by a tax ratchet the >market will do the rest quite efficiently, starting with the >small end, but eventually arriving at the top end (solar power >satellites). So we are seeing a year to year drop in energy use and cost? I think you have a bit of misunderstanding on this topic unless you have a pellet stove and are off the grid. Most people currently live where such things are outright impossible. If you do live such a place, you may have some idea of how much of your time is eaten by maintaining the stuff you need to live. All these things help, but not enough in the long run, not if you have any desire to live in style. Keith Henson From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 22 12:25:36 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:25:36 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 07:10:57PM +0100, Russell Wallace wrote: > from the beginning. (I vaguely recall the cycle time for the major > search engines was measured in months, back in the early days; I'm > guessing Google's available bandwidth has outpaced the growth of the > web so the cycle time would now be shorter.) I typically notice that web spiders hitting by a spike on the switch port (and soon, by a traffic quota warning). The major engines (Yahoo, Microsoft, Google) typically hit 1-2 times/month. I have a lot of data on my site, so about 90% of my traffic is due to spiders. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 22 12:58:39 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:58:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060822125839.GV14701@leitl.org> On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 08:31:22AM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > >Current PV arrays are already warranted for 20-25 years weathering, > >and they don't require to be launched, and produce power where it's > >consumed. PV is already economic off the grid, and will probably > >break-even with fossil within a decade, depending on how robust > >nonrenewable energy price development is. > > Do you go to bed when the sun goes down? Actually, the bulk of my energy use is during daytime. There's a massive overcapacity during nocturnal time, because large power plants take days to power up/down. That would not be a problem with terrestrial PV. And of course there's the grid, or if you're off-grid, you store your energy. You knew I knew that, so why did you ask? (I actually kinda anticipated people would bring up storage, but I don't have time to write treatises -- in fact, I've just dropped about 99% of my list traffic over the last two days, which should free up a couple hours for the day minimum). My point is that all the technology is already there, requires no huge R&D expenditures in large chunks (unlike solar sat fleet) and is already happening (with subsidized power buyback by the grid, which doesn't have to be subsidized after fossil break-even). > >I agree that a launch cost drop to LEO by an order of magnitude would > >make solar satellite power cost-effective. > > Not at all. Even two orders of magnitude is no where near It depends on how much mass you have to use, solar panels can be in few um range. You just have to be sufficiently high so drag doesn't bring you down faster than you can push. > enough. Besides, you don't want to reduce cost to LEO, you want to reduce > it to GEO. Most of the expensive mass lifting is for LEO, once you're there, you can unfold part of the panel and go up anywhere with very little reaction mass by ion drive, or even pure photonic pressure. I'd personally prefer coverage from LEO, using phased-array realtime beamforming by the uninsolated backside. There's not much space left in GEO, and it is really high up (both for beaming power, and ascending up there). > >But launch costs are far more > >unyielding > > That's the point of a mechanical (moving cable) space elevator. Once built You are rather fond of megascale engineering, aren't you. I have problems with terrestrial space elevators (much less so with lunar elevators), largely because of need of actively moving the ribbon to avoid perforation by debris, because the tensile strenth required is borderline to what physics gives you, with not much safety margin, and if you fail only once you've wrapped all your infrastructure around the equator. That's not so forgiving. I prefer linear-motor driven launch ramps, which are more or less unobtainium, too, but slightly less so (allright, would take more mass). As a realist, I prefer grassroot solutions. A self-inflatable photovoltaic-polymer dome with solid-state air conditioning and water condensation/desalination system for a family which fits in the back of an F250 truck and costs about as much would be a far larger progress in my book. It would empower people to be able to set up shop self-reliantly anywhere they want to, with minimal environment footprint (add a hydroponics unit, and you've partly covered caloric intake, too). > up to a mature size, it is lifting 2000 metric tons per day and using a Gw > of power. In 5 days it puts up 10,000 tons, which is enough for a 5 Gw (at > the ground) power sat. So a power sat pays back the energy used to lift it > to orbit in *one day*. To put it in monetary terms, a Gw hour lifts about > a hundred tons. At ten cent/kwh that's a million dollars to lift 200,000 > pounds or $5 a pound. Once you get the first few on line, I can't see > power being rated at more than a cent/kwh, which means 50 cents a pound to > GEO . . . . and falling. I agree that we don't have an energy crisis, we have a mental crisis. There's a lot of energy to tap, what we need is bringing down the tap costs. Right now the smallest PV unit would set me back some 25 kEUR, which is an order of magnitude too much (I'm ignoring subsidy for the moment). > At some point you start building stuff our of asteroid materials just to > avoid shipping on earth's surface! Yes, once Earth ceases to be important, it becomes really insignificant really fast. But I'm already 40, and it may well take more than my residual lifetime to see the beginnings of it. I once would have thought different, but things have turned out much slower than I anticipated. > >The economics of it doesn't work even now, and it would have looked > >even worse 30 years ago. > > The economics were fine. See the article in Science written by O'Neill and > vetted by half a dozen economists. The problem was that the overall chain > of complexity of mining the moon for materials, launching them off the > moon, refining them in orbit to what you needed and then building the power > sats was more than investors could cope with. The payback time was a bit > long, and the business went through a fair amount of money (some small > fraction of what the Iraq war has cost) before it made money hand over fist. The economics of megascale projects doesn't work because they *are* megascale projects, and they require megascale funding. Because the state is no longer concerned with our visions (unlike the Moon race), and the private enterprise is only beginning to enter the space sector. Fortunately, our control of very small packages is getting lots better, so the size of the bootstrap material will become less and less, ultimatively being in reach for smaller players, which have the motivation. > > > We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy > > > problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. > > > >Efficient burners (recently, pellet burners), house insulation, > >efficient light ICEs, thermal and PV solar and wind is doing very > >well here. If you remove the fossil volatility by a tax ratchet the > >market will do the rest quite efficiently, starting with the > >small end, but eventually arriving at the top end (solar power > >satellites). > > So we are seeing a year to year drop in energy use and cost? I think you No, I'm seeing lost higher productivity for the unit of energy consumed in EU than in NA. As to to energy use, it doesn't matter, if you're producing all the energy you can consume locally, sustainably. The energy you save you don't have to buy, which buys you time to implement more long-term plans. Such as orbital PV, for instance. > have a bit of misunderstanding on this topic unless you have a pellet stove > and are off the grid. Most people currently live where such things are > outright impossible. If you do live such a place, you may have some idea I live on the outskirts of a >10^6 city. > of how much of your time is eaten by maintaining the stuff you need to live. Pellet burners, to make an example, require as much maintenance as your oil or gas burners. > All these things help, but not enough in the long run, not if you have any > desire to live in style. The heat from a pellet burner is not measurably different from the heat of a gas burner. Insulation doesn't result in higher noxious emission, if you're putting a heat exchanger in the ventilation. A light, efficient electric/hybrid vehicle can give you the same amount of space and same or superior performance on the road as the equivalent old-style SUV. Living in style doesn't mean your environmental footprint needs to be large. With nanotechnology, the footprint can become about zero. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From russell.rukin at lineone.net Tue Aug 22 13:39:15 2006 From: russell.rukin at lineone.net (Russell Rukin) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:39:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] H+ to "finally" break into mainstream with your help In-Reply-To: <20060822070758.GW14701@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <20060822070758.GW14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: <44EB0903.9020904@lineone.net> I'm involved in H+ project with a hand picked group of commercial advertising executives, coders, designers and artists to propel a well know H+ project (well known in our circles) into public consciousness in a variety of unique ways. We need translators for our project, all languages, the work shouldn't be too time consuming, roughly 10 pages light text and it will be paid (so you have to be over 18). If possible you will be reasonably web literate (knowledge of how to use forums, lists, social networks etc). We currently have Spanish, Polish, Russian, Slovak, Turkish and may have Dutch and Czech on the way (but please get in touch if you can cover these last two languages as it may not work out). We'll also be needing volunteers when the site goes live (hopefully towards the end of September) to really fuel the fire but I'll post again about that when we are live. The project will be a year long push and although not directly mentioned in our marketing effort I think it will generate massive interest in all H+ projects and memes. Those wishing to offer translations can get in touch with me at russell.rukin at lineone.net Cheers Russell R From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 15:02:02 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:02:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pellet stoves In-Reply-To: <20060822125839.GV14701@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822105000.02f42e18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 02:58 PM 8/22/2006 +0200, Eugen wrote: >On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 08:31:22AM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: snip > > of how much of your time is eaten by maintaining the stuff you need to > live. > >Pellet burners, to make an example, require as much maintenance as your >oil or gas burners. Please resume this discussion when your pellet stove has been in use for a year. >Living in style doesn't mean your environmental footprint needs >to be large. With nanotechnology, the footprint can become about zero. "Human relations with engineered "domestic animals" might get real weird. Nomads in Africa drink the blood of their cattle. A less messy method would be to grow plugs on the animals which could be connected to humans and supply energy and materials directly to the human bloodstream. Instead of killing the sheep, you bring in a batch and "recharge" from them. A "lower on the food chain" alternative would be to have a "backpack" which would unfold when you lay down in the sun into a large photosynthetic area. Assuming the nomads' sheep didn't trample you, a few hours a day soaking up rays on 30 square meters of surface would eliminate the need to eat animals or plants. This is getting far afield from the simple uses of nanotechnology, but being modified this way would allow living the "simple" life par excellence. Such people would really leave "nothing but footprints."" http://www.alcor.org/cryonics/cryonics9101.txt Keith Henson From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 22 15:07:24 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:07:24 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pellet stoves In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822105000.02f42e18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822073814.02f45648@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822105000.02f42e18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20060822150724.GE14701@leitl.org> On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 11:02:02AM -0400, Keith Henson wrote: > Please resume this discussion when your pellet stove has been in use for a > year. Who said anything about a stove? Are you perchance unfamiliar with modern pellet burners? While I don't have one (my old apartment is being connected to Kalina-cycle geothermal) and my current one is a new-ish methane burner I understand you only have to empty the ash bin every 3 weeks during maximal burn time (winter, in our latitudes). It's every 2 months in spring/autumn, and not at all during summer, if you've got a solar thermal (i.e., not PV) system on the roof. I also understand the current systems are clean and reliable. The minus point is that the current pellets are 50% more expensive than fossil for the same caloric value. > >Living in style doesn't mean your environmental footprint needs > >to be large. With nanotechnology, the footprint can become about zero. > > "Human relations with engineered "domestic animals" might get real > weird. Nomads in Africa drink the blood of their cattle. A less messy > method would be to grow plugs on the animals which could be connected to > humans and supply energy and materials directly to the human bloodstream. > Instead of killing the sheep, you bring in a batch and "recharge" from > them. A "lower on the food chain" alternative would be to have a > "backpack" which would unfold when you lay down in the sun into a large > photosynthetic area. Assuming the nomads' sheep didn't trample you, a few > hours a day soaking up rays on 30 square meters of surface would eliminate > the need to eat animals or plants. This is getting far afield from the > simple uses of nanotechnology, but being modified this way would allow > living the "simple" life par excellence. Such people would really leave > "nothing but footprints."" > > http://www.alcor.org/cryonics/cryonics9101.txt I'd rather prefer shading off a patch of circumsolar orbit, myself. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Aug 22 16:57:05 2006 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:57:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Biomed] Contagious Cancer In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060817085201.02e15018@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <1613532D-7E32-43A3-81E7-45F653AE0E19@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Martin Striz wrote: > On 8/17/06, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >> This reminds me of a small and somewhat remote town ("small" = ~500 >> people) I lived in growing up, that had a number of instances of the >> same kind of fatal cancer over a couple year period. A few >> government agencies took a keen interest but after exhaustive studies >> could find no plausible environmental factors (e.g. contaminants) >> that could explain how so many people in such a small population >> could develop the same kind of cancer at roughly the same time. And >> it disappeared as abruptly as it had come. It would seem that the >> spontaneous formation of a contagious cancer could reasonably explain >> that pattern, though at the time people would have thought you were >> crazy to suggest such a thing was even possible. > > What type of cancer was it? I have no idea. I was a kid at the time, and would not remember now even if I had been told. The only reason I know about it is that it seriously concerned my parents and the other adults in the town at the time. I did not think much of it at the time, but it was strange enough to be memorable. J. Andrew Rogers From scerir at libero.it Tue Aug 22 17:27:15 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:27:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the dark side References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <37615.72.236.102.108.1156213199.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <007301c6c610$374198a0$bc971f97@nomedxgm1aalex> http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/08/21/dark-matter-exists/ From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 19:09:54 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:09:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 8/22/06, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > I typically notice that web spiders hitting by a spike on the > switch port (and soon, by a traffic quota warning). The major > engines (Yahoo, Microsoft, Google) typically hit 1-2 times/month. > I have a lot of data on my site, so about 90% of my traffic > is due to spiders. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFE6ve/dbAkQ4sp9r4RArouAJ9IW4+TXni95+hobcLrqvMoDkjsegCfYRTY > NRGYaZR39gXKvrWDu/qprXs= > =XkrE > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 19:12:14 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:12:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: Sorry, last message was a mistype... On 8/22/06, Eugen Leitl wrote: > The major engines (Yahoo, Microsoft, Google) typically hit 1-2 > times/month. > I have a lot of data on my site, so about 90% of my traffic is due to > spiders. I believe you can fix that by adjusting your robots.txt file, e.g. User-agent: * Crawl-Delay: 120 I'm currently noticing regular but not excessive crawling by msnbot using that. I'm less sure about Yahoo & Google. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Aug 22 19:28:33 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:28:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] how does google find out everything? In-Reply-To: References: <200608181804.k7II4nOq000976@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <8d71341e0608181110r38893a6bg16720c59fc2faa67@mail.gmail.com> <20060822122536.GU14701@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20060822192833.GG14701@leitl.org> On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 03:12:14PM -0400, Robert Bradbury wrote: > I have a lot of data on my site, so about 90% of my traffic is due > to spiders. > > I believe you can fix that by adjusting your robots.txt file, e.g. > User-agent: * > Crawl-Delay: 120 Oh, I don't mind the load, most of it is static files which lighttpd serves far better than Apache could (yeah, I know about comanche & Co and what the benchmarks say), despite running in a virtual server, on a measly 1.2 GHz Athlon XP. > I'm currently noticing regular but not excessive crawling by msnbot > using that. > I'm less sure about Yahoo & Google. I want the material to be found and indexed, and the load is negligible, and the traffic is very cheap, so I don't mind the spiders crawling. As long as there aren't too many of them, so they'd crawl the site daily. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Aug 22 20:01:47 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:01:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Contagious Cancer Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822160129.02f681d8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:57 AM 8/22/2006 -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >On Aug 17, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Martin Striz wrote: > > On 8/17/06, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > >> This reminds me of a small and somewhat remote town ("small" = ~500 > >> people) I lived in growing up, that had a number of instances of the > >> same kind of fatal cancer over a couple year period. A few > >> government agencies took a keen interest but after exhaustive studies > >> could find no plausible environmental factors (e.g. contaminants) > >> that could explain how so many people in such a small population > >> could develop the same kind of cancer at roughly the same time. And > >> it disappeared as abruptly as it had come. It would seem that the > >> spontaneous formation of a contagious cancer could reasonably explain > >> that pattern, though at the time people would have thought you were > >> crazy to suggest such a thing was even possible. > > > > What type of cancer was it? > >I have no idea. I was a kid at the time, and would not remember now >even if I had been told. The only reason I know about it is that it >seriously concerned my parents and the other adults in the town at >the time. I did not think much of it at the time, but it was strange >enough to be memorable. You might write the dog cancer researchers and mention at least the town and year this happened. It is possible tissue samples were saved, and modern genotyping could see if the cancers were not "native" to the people who got them. It would sure be a shocker. It is even possible that defending against cancers from other people is why we reject transplants. Keith Henson From mstriz at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 21:34:41 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:34:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > >There are lots of reasons why people go to war besides an evolved > >mechanism for profiteering being triggered by a blight. > > Please name them. I am not trying to be hard on you. I am profoundly > disturbed by the EP model and hope someone can come up with a way out of > the dire future it predicts. You seem to be confusing a few things. 1) I don't deny that the EP model of tribal warfare in the face of predicted hardship is erroneous. However, even if blights are very likely to cause war, that doesn't mean all war is caused by blights. People go to war for religious and other philiosophical reasons, or to plunder other people's resources even if they are not facing a blight. Some tribes during the Middle Ages made it their profession. That's why I say that blights only account for a percentage of the variance. 2) I am calling into question the very premise of a future blight, which is one argument that the "dire future" you predict won't happen. > >Switching to renewable energy, > > Satellite solar power is renewable and offers the prospect that it will be > *much* less expensive than current or projected sources. Satellite solar is certainly one good solution. > You might consider that I have been in this business for over 30 years > now. Had we done power sats starting back then, the US would be a major > energy exporter and we have no reason to be concerned about oil producers. > We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy > problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. Alas, legislation is written by money, not reason. However, the cultural element can have an impact. Martin From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Aug 23 01:04:08 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:04:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 05:34 PM 8/22/2006 -0400, you wrote: >On 8/21/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > > >There are lots of reasons why people go to war besides an evolved > > >mechanism for profiteering being triggered by a blight. > > > > Please name them. I am not trying to be hard on you. I am profoundly > > disturbed by the EP model and hope someone can come up with a way out of > > the dire future it predicts. > >You seem to be confusing a few things. > >1) I don't deny that the EP model of tribal warfare in the face of >predicted hardship is erroneous. However, even if blights are very >likely to cause war, that doesn't mean all war is caused by blights. >People go to war for religious and other philiosophical reasons, or to >plunder other people's resources even if they are not facing a blight. The argument runs this way: All war is ultimately caused by anticipation of economic crisis, usually resource related. The anticipation turns up the gain on xenophobic memes so religions or philosophical "reasons" for wars are the *outcome* of the meme amplification process tripped by anticipated hard times. I.e., a step in the causal chain rather than an origin. > Some tribes during the Middle Ages made it their profession. That's >why I say that blights only account for a percentage of the variance. It makes no sense for human to switch into war mode when it is not called for by the environment. War is worse for your gene if the future prospects are bright. Rising kids is *much* better for your genes than fighting with strangers where you stand a good chance of being killed. That is unless the prospects for not fighting are worse. If you look at the groups in the middle ages who were fighting most of the time, I think you will find that they were facing starvation if they just stayed home. >2) I am calling into question the very premise of a future blight, >which is one argument that the "dire future" you predict won't happen. The point of the model is that the xenophobic meme gain is turned up just by the anticipation of hard times a-coming. So even if the dire future is averted by some last minute discovery, we may get a war anyway. Likewise, a way to replace oil being put in place, even if it was going to take a decade or two, would improve the future prospects enough to shut off the high gain mode for xenophobic memes. > > >Switching to renewable energy, > > > > Satellite solar power is renewable and offers the prospect that it will be > > *much* less expensive than current or projected sources. > >Satellite solar is certainly one good solution. > > > You might consider that I have been in this business for over 30 years > > now. Had we done power sats starting back then, the US would be a major > > energy exporter and we have no reason to be concerned about oil producers. > > > We didn't. We are not likely to do anything useful about the energy > > problems unless someone can see huge profits to be made. > >Alas, legislation is written by money, not reason. However, the >cultural element can have an impact. True. While you could not get the government to directly invest in power sats, you might get them to commit to buy fuel for Moon/Mars missions at some rate that was a small fraction of the current lift cost to high orbits. If you *had* such a contract, it might make it possible to raise the money to put up a space elevator. Keith Henson From mstriz at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 02:11:45 2006 From: mstriz at gmail.com (Martin Striz) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:11:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/06, Keith Henson wrote: > >1) I don't deny that the EP model of tribal warfare in the face of > >predicted hardship is [plausible/likely]. However, even if blights are very > >likely to cause war, that doesn't mean all war is caused by blights. > >People go to war for religious and other philiosophical reasons, or to > >plunder other people's resources even if they are not facing a blight. > > The argument runs this way: All war is ultimately caused by anticipation > of economic crisis, usually resource related. The anticipation turns up > the gain on xenophobic memes so religions or philosophical "reasons" for > wars are the *outcome* of the meme amplification process tripped by > anticipated hard times. I.e., a step in the causal chain rather than an > origin. Then, no, I don't accept that model. > > Some tribes during the Middle Ages made it their profession. That's > >why I say that blights only account for a percentage of the variance. > > It makes no sense for human to switch into war mode when it is not called > for by the environment. But you didn't say "environment," you said "blight," which is a small subset of possible environmental causes of war. If ALL war, as you suggest, is caused by predicted economic crisis, then you are saying there's zero probability that any other environmental (or genetic) phenomenon could cause war. That's absurd. Sociopathic leaders can go to war for no reason. I just disproved your argument. And as for tribes who constitutively plundered, utilitizing a permanent war strategy is another way of testing the behavior space. There's no reason why it shouldn't happen. > War is worse for your gene if the future prospects are bright. Not if you're a militarized and highly trained band that's good at fighting, going up against nonmilitarized, poorly trained bands who spend all their time farming. Marauding bands essentially took on the role of parasites, which exist in any ecosystem. It would have happened whether or not they were running out of resources. > Rising kids is *much* better for your genes than fighting with > strangers where you stand a good chance of being killed. That is unless > the prospects for not fighting are worse. If you look at the groups in the > middle ages who were fighting most of the time, I think you will find that > they were facing starvation if they just stayed home. The marauding groups in Europe in the Middle Ages had the same resources available as the non-marauding groups: Europe. They could have settled down and started farming, but didn't. > >2) I am calling into question the very premise of a future blight, > >which is one argument that the "dire future" you predict won't happen. > > The point of the model is that the xenophobic meme gain is turned up just > by the anticipation of hard times a-coming. So even if the dire future is > averted by some last minute discovery, we may get a war anyway. True, but the problem right now is that people aren't scared ENOUGH. :) --Martin From artianista at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 22 22:44:33 2006 From: artianista at sbcglobal.net (Mark Mars) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:44:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the dark side In-Reply-To: <007301c6c610$374198a0$bc971f97@nomedxgm1aalex> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <37615.72.236.102.108.1156213199.squirrel@main.nc.us> <007301c6c610$374198a0$bc971f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Message-ID: <93708E7E-A9B9-48BF-A332-DEB96E19F2F2@sbcglobal.net> Wow. I love this. I've been doing this kind of thing since I was I think I've finally stumbled upon a truly informalized Great Conversation (while looking for my keys where I can find them)! On Aug 22, 2006, at 12:27 PM, scerir wrote: > http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/08/21/dark-matter-exists/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From scerir at libero.it Wed Aug 23 08:28:31 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:28:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the dark side References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><200608202247.k7KMlC9m009298@andromeda.ziaspace.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060820231112.02e4db30@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821080140.02e6ec60@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20060821212041.02f41910@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><37615.72.236.102.108.1156213199.squirrel@main.nc.us><007301c6c610$374198a0$bc971f97@nomedxgm1aalex> <93708E7E-A9B9-48BF-A332-DEB96E19F2F2@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <001701c6c68e$1ed52a60$0dbd1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> Mark Mars > I think I've finally stumbled upon a truly informalized Great > Conversation (while looking for my keys where I can find them)! I thought that this dark matter was nothing but spam, ejected from some galaxy or from some post-human civilization, or the inheritance of some previous cosmological superposition (? la Hawking), but now anything 'it's gettin' dark, too dark to see' [1] http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week238.html http://www.interactions.org/cms/?pid=1023641 [1] Knockin' On Heaven's Door -Bob Dylan From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Aug 23 14:47:41 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:47:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060823101014.02f43098@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 10:11 PM 8/22/2006 -0400, Martin wrote: >On 8/22/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > > >1) I don't deny that the EP model of tribal warfare in the face of > > >predicted hardship is [plausible/likely]. However, even if blights > are very > > >likely to cause war, that doesn't mean all war is caused by blights. > > >People go to war for religious and other philiosophical reasons, or to > > >plunder other people's resources even if they are not facing a blight. > > > > The argument runs this way: All war is ultimately caused by anticipation > > of economic crisis, usually resource related. The anticipation turns up > > the gain on xenophobic memes so religions or philosophical "reasons" for > > wars are the *outcome* of the meme amplification process tripped by > > anticipated hard times. I.e., a step in the causal chain rather than an > > origin. > >Then, no, I don't accept that model. Good. Propose another model rooted in evolution biology and our species long history as social primates in hunter gatherer bands. > > > Some tribes during the Middle Ages made it their profession. That's > > >why I say that blights only account for a percentage of the variance. > > > > It makes no sense for human to switch into war mode when it is not called > > for by the environment. > >But you didn't say "environment," you said "blight," which is a small >subset of possible environmental causes of war. Did I actually use "blight?" It's not a word I often use. >If ALL war, as you >suggest, is caused by predicted economic crisis, then you are saying >there's zero probability that any other environmental (or genetic) >phenomenon could cause war. That's absurd. Sociopathic leaders can >go to war for no reason. I just disproved your argument. You need to show at least an example or two where a population with bright future prospects (and was not attacked) followed a sociopathic leader into war. War is very much a group activity, you can't do it without group support. Now a population can be flipped into war mode by being fooled into thinking they were under attack, but that still consistent with the model. Consider the current mess the US is in. Bush had plans for going into Iraq long before 9/11. But without that attack (and a lot of misleading propaganda) he could never have obtained support from the US population for going into Iraq. >And as for tribes who constitutively plundered, utilitizing a >permanent war strategy is another way of testing the behavior space. >There's no reason why it shouldn't happen. > > > War is worse for your genes if the future prospects are bright. > >Not if you're a militarized and highly trained band that's good at >fighting, going up against nonmilitarized, poorly trained bands who >spend all their time farming. > >Marauding bands essentially took on the role of parasites, which exist >in any ecosystem. It would have happened whether or not they were >running out of resources. Examples? It is rather hard for marauding bands to raise children. > > Rising kids is *much* better for your genes than fighting with > > strangers where you stand a good chance of being killed. That is unless > > the prospects for not fighting are worse. If you look at the groups in the > > middle ages who were fighting most of the time, I think you will find that > > they were facing starvation if they just stayed home. > >The marauding groups in Europe in the Middle Ages had the same >resources available as the non-marauding groups: Europe. They could >have settled down and started farming, but didn't. Europe was packed tight with people since the neolithic (except when a plague had wiped a bunch of them out). When marauding bands *did* find new lands (Iceland) they became farmers. (Were there marauding bands who were not part time farmers?) > > >2) I am calling into question the very premise of a future blight, > > >which is one argument that the "dire future" you predict won't happen. > > > > The point of the model is that the xenophobic meme gain is turned up just > > by the anticipation of hard times a-coming. So even if the dire future is > > averted by some last minute discovery, we may get a war anyway. > >True, but the problem right now is that people aren't scared ENOUGH. :) I see the :) but taking your seriously, fear isn't enough. Because of the massive population growth, the entire race is in a burning building. We have to pick the right exit. That takes rational thinking, and rational thinking is the first thing to go due to our evolutionary history. Bummer. Keith From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 23 16:04:11 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:04:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060823160411.GR14701@leitl.org> On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 01:10:11PM +0200, Amara Graps wrote: > -Charon now a planet (not a satellite; barycenter is in free space) I don't understand the barycenter in free space issue -- since Jupiter/Sun barycenter is outside the Sun Jupiter doesn't orbit the Sun, and is thus not a planet? Planet, shmanet, this is a really arbitrary classification criterion. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 20:24:51 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:24:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/16/06, Amara Graps wrote: > NOTE: "Pluton" is an official IAU word. > Terrestrial planet, classical planet, dwarf planet, etc. > are all descriptive words, not IAU terms. Is there any chance the misappropriation of the word "pluton" from the geologist vocabulary [1] will cause the IAU to ditch the invention of "Pluton" to describe something *completely* different? There are apparently more than a few geologists that are miffed over this. How about "Plutite" or "Plutette" or "Plutomous" or "PWB" or "NQPSY" [2]? Robert 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluton_%28geology%29 2. "Pluto Wanna Be" & "Not Quite Pluto Sized Yet" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 21:10:27 2006 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:10:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5844e22f0608231410p7c43c6d4gbc85e223f28e6ad6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > Is there any chance the misappropriation of the word "pluton" from the > geologist vocabulary [1] will cause the IAU to ditch the invention of > "Pluton" to describe something *completely* different? There are apparently > more than a few geologists that are miffed over this. 1. I doubt it. 2. I hope not. If context can't enable someone to differentiate between which of the two completely different referents someone intends when they say or write "pluton", one has rather different, and worse, issues upon which one should be focusing. -- Jeff Medina Sr. Systems Engineer, Lockheed Martin Sr. Programmer, Elemental Solutions "Do you want to live forever?" "Dunno. Ask me again in five hundred years." (_Guards! Guards!_, Terry Pratchett) From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 22:03:43 2006 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:03:43 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Our Solar System Planets In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0608231410p7c43c6d4gbc85e223f28e6ad6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5844e22f0608231410p7c43c6d4gbc85e223f28e6ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4902d9990608231503h2c912546gdd8bf27d5331e542@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/06, Jeff Medina wrote: > If context can't enable someone to differentiate between which of the > two completely different referents someone intends when they say or > write "pluton", one has rather different, and worse, issues upon which > one should be focusing. According to Wikipedia, there's also the pluton (french nuclear missile), and eight french Navy ships (the french must really like the name). So maybe you can launch a pluton from a pluton and hit a pluton on a pluton? Is that a missile attack on a geologic formation or a pre-emptive asteroid strike from Xenians (who have really powerful rail guns) on the enemy ship's offensive system? Alfio From neomorphy at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 03:46:13 2006 From: neomorphy at gmail.com (Olie Lamb) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:46:13 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Bulk] Re: Forbes Magazine on Robotics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060823101014.02f43098@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <30197034.21661156049938103.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820114418.02e5ac18@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820145918.02e889c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060820224657.02eb8dc8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821150029.02f23980@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060821220528.02e8fe20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060822200743.02f88e68@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060823101014.02f43098@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 8/24/06, Keith Henson wrote: > At 10:11 PM 8/22/2006 -0400, Martin wrote: > >On 8/22/06, Keith Henson wrote: > > > War is worse for your genes if the future prospects are bright. > > > >Not if you're a militarized and highly trained band that's good at > >fighting, going up against nonmilitarized, poorly trained bands who > >spend all their time farming. > > > >Marauding bands essentially took on the role of parasites, which exist > >in any ecosystem. It would have happened whether or not they were > >running out of resources. > > Examples? It is rather hard for marauding bands to raise children. Not _that_ difficult - take any of the nomadic horsemen groups that have come from northeastern Eurasian steppes - the Huns, the Mongol Hordes... In particular, the Huns were reasonably well supported for several generations (4th to 6th century) by plundering Roman cities. ... As a rule, the competition will be won by the specialist -- Olie From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 11:00:49 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:00:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: List prizes [was Re: Our Solar System Planets] Message-ID: On 8/23/06, Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > According to Wikipedia, there's also the pluton (french nuclear > missile), and eight french Navy ships (the french must really like the > name). So maybe you can launch a pluton from a pluton and hit a pluton > on a pluton? Is that a missile attack on a geologic formation or a > pre-emptive asteroid strike from Xenians (who have really powerful > rail guns) on the enemy ship's offensive system? I just knew when I made the comment that that started this that the conversation would go this way. This is after all the ExI-CHAT list. :-| We should have an annual contest with prizes for messages that are (a) Most educational; (b) Most insightful; (c) Most outside-of-the-box; (d) Have the least extropic value (contain lots of data that uselessly consumes meme space). R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Thu Aug 24 19:41:20 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:41:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Change in Vatican Observatory. Message-ID: MB >Well, this sounds depressing. >http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2006/08/catholics_retreat_into_dogma_a.php I told MB privately and also made a comment on the blog, so repeating here. The events written on the blog surrounding George Coyne are completely incorrect. George Coyne is in his mid 70s, recovering from cancer, and this particular changeover has been in the works a long time [1]. Amara [1] Reference Private email correspondence with Guy Consolmagno 22-23 August 2006. From amara at amara.com Thu Aug 24 19:24:39 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:24:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Solar System Planets - Final vote Message-ID: Dear Extropes, There needed to be a separate category for Ceres and Pluto, it seems, so in the final vote of the International Astronomical Union, today, Ceres, Pluto and Charon were thrown out of the basic planet category, and now we have one less. (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune) Amara Tallinn ====================================================================== http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0603/index.html The IAU members gathered at the 2006 General Assembly agreed that a "planet" is defined as a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit. This means that the Solar System consists of eight "planets" Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. A new distinct class of objects called "dwarf planets" was also decided. It was agreed that "planets" and "dwarf planets" are two distinct classes of objects. The first members of the "dwarf planet" category are Ceres, Pluto and 2003 UB313 (temporary name). More "dwarf planets" are expected to be announced by the IAU in the coming months and years. Currently a dozen candidate "dwarf planets" are listed on IAU's "dwarf planet" watchlist, which keeps changing as new objects are found and the physics of the existing candidates becomes better known. The "dwarf planet" Pluto is recognised as an important proto-type of a new class of trans-Neptunian objects. The IAU will set up a process to name these objects. Below are the planet definition Resolutions that were passed. RESOLUTIONS Resolution 5A is the principal definition for the IAU usage of "planet" and related terms. Resolution 6A creates for IAU usage a new class of objects, for which Pluto is the prototype. The IAU will set up a process to name these objects. IAU Resolution: Definition of a Planet in the Solar System Contemporary observations are changing our understanding of planetary systems, and it is important that our nomenclature for objects reflect our current understanding. This applies, in particular, to the designation 'planets'. The word 'planet' originally described 'wanderers' that were known only as moving lights in the sky. Recent discoveries lead us to create a new definition, which we can make using currently available scientific information. RESOLUTION 5A The IAU therefore resolves that "planets" and other bodies in our Solar System be defined into three distinct categories in the following way: (1) A "planet"1 is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit. (2) A "dwarf planet" is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape2 , (c) has not cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit, and (d) is not a satellite. (3) All other objects3 except satellites orbiting the Sun shall be referred to collectively as "Small Solar-System Bodies". 1The eight planets are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. 2An IAU process will be established to assign borderline objects into either dwarf planet and other categories. 3These currently include most of the Solar System asteroids, most Trans-Neptunian Objects (TNOs), comets, and other small bodies. IAU Resolution: Pluto RESOLUTION 6A The IAU further resolves: Pluto is a "dwarf planet" by the above definition and is recognized as the prototype of a new category of trans-Neptunian objects.1 -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute, Tucson From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 19:52:20 2006 From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:52:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] New IAU definitions for planets and dwarf planets Message-ID: <4902d9990608241252j6fd78070q2153662c070613dd@mail.gmail.com> >From http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0603/index.html (1) A "planet"1 is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit. (2) A "dwarf planet" is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun, (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape2 , (c) has not cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit, and (d) is not a satellite. If I understand correctly: 1) there are eight planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune 2) there are, for now, four dwarf planets: Ceres, Pluto, Charon and Xena. Point (d) of the second statement is to avoid that all round moons become dwarf planets. Status of the biggest asteroids in the outer solar system (Quaoar, 2003 EL61, 2005 FY9, Sedna and many others) to be decided. Most of them can be considered dwarf planets. Alfio From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Aug 25 00:10:49 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:10:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Plz help! References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano> Hello, so today I bought Norton Systemware Premier for my BOXX workstation and I downloaded it, for a minute I saw an error but it continued to install, apparently it installs "Go Back" by default. I am already familiar with GoBack and I know that it creates a false partition and since that's what the raid core (I've got four or five I forget) is I didn't even want GoBack, just the rest of the Norton package. Anyways, it said it installed successfully and that I needed to reboot which I did, so the normal bios info etc.screen loads up, and the raid core one too, but then I get another black screen with a error with a go back message of some sort saying I can press a key to reboot (still in black screen mode), and then it does this whole cycle over again, etc. etc. etc. The Go back splash actually does pop up real quick in the cycle, you know where it says "if you are having problems press the space bar" I did click that and one of the options is to "disable GoBack" sounds good right, so the disable bar shows up, but only stays at 0%, and never goes any further, I think because it hasn't ever been loaded into windows yet, since I haven't gotten into windows anymore. Boxx is closed right now, I did shut my machine down now and I know I could call tomorrow but I was wondering if any of you know anything about this or can help me? Can I go into set up from BIOS and remove the nasty program or revert in time to before, how would I do this? Not sure if I backed up my last big project.......My tummy is all shakey!!!! I'm so scared.... Hope one of you can help me! Thank you ahead of time. Gina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Aug 25 01:47:41 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:47:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Plz help! References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano> <001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> Scratch that, I called Norton, they referred me here: http://service1.symantec.com/support/goback.nsf/docid/2005111514174058?Open&src=w apparently Go Back is not compatible with raidcore.........all good now! Gina ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:10 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Plz help! Hello, so today I bought Norton Systemware Premier for my BOXX workstation and I downloaded it, for a minute I saw an error but it continued to install, apparently it installs "Go Back" by default. I am already familiar with GoBack and I know that it creates a false partition and since that's what the raid core (I've got four or five I forget) is I didn't even want GoBack, just the rest of the Norton package. Anyways, it said it installed successfully and that I needed to reboot which I did, so the normal bios info etc.screen loads up, and the raid core one too, but then I get another black screen with a error with a go back message of some sort saying I can press a key to reboot (still in black screen mode), and then it does this whole cycle over again, etc. etc. etc. The Go back splash actually does pop up real quick in the cycle, you know where it says "if you are having problems press the space bar" I did click that and one of the options is to "disable GoBack" sounds good right, so the disable bar shows up, but only stays at 0%, and never goes any further, I think because it hasn't ever been loaded into windows yet, since I haven't gotten into windows anymore. Boxx is closed right now, I did shut my machine down now and I know I could call tomorrow but I was wondering if any of you know anything about this or can help me? Can I go into set up from BIOS and remove the nasty program or revert in time to before, how would I do this? Not sure if I backed up my last big project.......My tummy is all shakey!!!! I'm so scared.... Hope one of you can help me! Thank you ahead of time. Gina ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 25 03:44:55 2006 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Solar System Planets - unsatisfied In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060825034455.21696.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Dear Extropes, > > There needed to be a separate category for Ceres and > Pluto, it > seems, so in the final vote of the International > Astronomical Union, > today, Ceres, Pluto and Charon were thrown out of > the basic > planet category, and now we have one less. > > (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, > Uranus and Neptune) Did they consider the scaling of the solar system when they made their decision? I have been doing some statistical analysis of the orbital mechanics of the planets in order to more accurately determine some factors of the Drake equation. As part of my research, I discovered that, although the Titus-Bode law fails to predict Neptune, it is essentially right just horribly inaccurate. As you can calculate from my attached figure based on the SMA's of the "planets" you can see that the true Titus-Bode Law should be closer to SMA=46.3175(1.70460)^n. (Note this only works for distances in solar radii although in fact a change in units changes the factor out in front but not the base of the exponential.) I am working on a theory of statistical astromechanics that generalizes this invariant scaling of matter on large scales. The current "dogma" has little to say about the "almost success" of the Titus-Bode law. The new law is far more accurate and more begging of a theoretical explanation which I have been ruminating about some time now. I am trying to throw together a manuscript of some of my findings. Anyone know what would be the best journal to submit to? (I am more familiar with the biology journals). In any case, I think that the current definition of planet to be unsatisfactory. I think that pluto-charon, earth-luna, and Xena and its moon should all be classified as binary planets. Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "The 'I' is an illusion but that illusion needs to be experienced, and it is only by experience that it can be known as an illusion." - Shankarachanya __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: planetary_scaling.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 14005 bytes Desc: 2938638071-planetary_scaling.pdf URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:35:04 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:35:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Solar System Planets - unsatisfied In-Reply-To: <20060825034455.21696.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060825034455.21696.qmail@web60515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/24/06, The Avantguardian wrote: > The new law is far more accurate and more begging of a theoretical > explanation which I have been ruminating > about some time now. I am trying to throw together a manuscript of some of > my findings. Anyone know what > would be the best journal to submit to? (I am more familiar with the > biology journals). Stuart, Milan Cirkovic and I had relatively good luck with "New Astronomy". According to him its a relatively high profile journal and would seem to have the perspective you seek for your ideas. Robert 1. http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/601274/description -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Fri Aug 25 18:41:01 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:41:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] extropy-chat] Solar System Planets - unsatisfied Message-ID: Stuart LaForge >I have been doing some >statistical analysis of the orbital mechanics of the planets a paper from a friend/colleague (sometimes he reads this list too): http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~wayne/research/papers/bode.pdf Amara Tallinn From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 19:15:55 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:15:55 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Plz help! In-Reply-To: <005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano> <001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano> <005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: On 8/24/06, Gina Miller wrote: > > > Scratch that, I called Norton, they referred me here: > http://service1.symantec.com/support/goback.nsf/docid/2005111514174058?Open&src=w > apparently Go Back is not compatible with raidcore.........all good now! > Gina > Gina, I hate to say it and I hope you will not mind me using you as an example, but "All is *not* good". I presume you are talking about "Norton Systemworks Premier" [1]. As the Norton page says "GoBack" is included with the package. Packages typically install everything unless you select the "expert" option in which case they "may" allow you not to install the parts you don't want. Now Norton is probably reliabile enough to allow you paths to get out of the swamp when you fall into it (as you seem to have). The details of your message seem to suggest that you are on the cutting edge enough to get into real trouble. You are installing closed source system backup and scanning software from a 3rd party onto a system which already has closed source software from multiple vendors (Microsoft & whomever is supplying the "raid" system it sounds like you are using) [2]. Now, lets start with the first problem -- Why do you need Norton Systemworks in the first place? Are you running around the Internet in such a "naked" condition that viruses are infecting you left and right (I would hope that ExI list subscribers know better than that). The second problem is -- Why are you still using Windows? Are you absolutely *sure* that the software you require or its equivalent is not available under Linux? Even if its not there are several virtual/emulator approaches (Wine, Parallels, Xen, VMware, etc.) which would allow you to run Windows in a sandbox where it or the nasties it tends to promote in the world should be unable to do undo harm to your basic system. [3] Linux is *free* (and will remain that way forever and ever). It is also open source and so you can receive critical patches as soon as anyone in the world makes them available -- not when some committee in Redmond (in conjuction with its marketing people and lawyers) decide it is "safe" to release them. The people promoting Linux aren't running around trying to get legislatures to pass laws, or distributing software without telling people about its capabilities, that allows them to scan all of the information on you hard drive. Linux comes with virus scanning software (free!) if you really need it (in 32 years of using Unix/Linux I've never needed virus "disinfection" for those systems -- in the decade or so that I used Windows I was careless and may have been infected a couple of times -- but I still cleaned up the problems myself without the need for a "helping" hand.) While Linux used to be somewhat difficult to install that is no longer the case [4] So, I'll stand on the crate in front of the audience and point out very loudly -- if you aren't part of the solution -- you are part of the problem! Now, why is this important? Because the infection of machines that easily enable more infections (i.e. all of those old unupgraded, unprotected, closed source machines) are what allows SPAM to consume an increasing fraction of Internet bandwidth and enables malicious attacks (possibly supported by governments(!)) to take place [5]. Now some of you may be saying, "Oh, I've got this great firewall software installed (e.g. from Microsoft, Norton, McaAfee, etc.) that protects me from all that badness out there on the evil Internet." Sorry [6]! I will note that whether you are running Windows *or* Linux, that because the current Web interface that most people use involves a browser (IE, Firefox, etc.) if you don't have Javascript disabled you are creating the *wide open door* that those Internet nasties can sneak through. Javascript potentially enables a foreign program from any web site you visit to run on your computer! Not a program you explicitly wanted to run (as was the case with those "free" software utilities that people naively downloaded and ran when the WWW was still a relatively safe place to play) but programs that you don't even see. If said programs are clever enough they may sit, quietly... waiting... until your birthday next year when they will spring to life and demand at least 3, maybe 4 figures from you being sent by Western Union to a pickup point in Nigeria before they will turn over the password required to decrypt your hard drive. (You don't really expect the password to work do you?). As is pointed out in [7] by Stefan Wolf, "The primary gateway into the browser is JavaScript," Wolf explains. Users should deactivate the program language in their browser, or use browser extensions to define which web sites are to be trusted to execute JavaScript." Of course it would be nice if you could be sure that certain sites can be "trusted" and could not be compromised, for example government or military sites, but as [8,9,10,11,12,...] point out -- that is probably an example of playing Russian Roulette. Your choice, use whatever software you want. But as the Folding at Home team is pointing out [13] their recent efforts are devoted to pushing the computing capacity at their disposal to 1-10 petaflops. That *is* human brain equivalent capacity. Some of you should be having nightmares where you wake up in a cold sweat wondering if that money that you just wired to Nigeria is going to allow the RogueAI to buy even more computing capacity that will subsequently be used to enslave you even further. Robert 1. http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/overview.jsp?pcid=sp&pvid=nswp2006 2. Though I'm unfamiliar with these packages ("raid core" and GoBack), "Raid" is a *completely* different concept with completely different implementation details from what I suspect "Go Back" would be (a low level file version control system). The two concepts do not perform the same function at all. 3. I personally have used Windows 2000 under Parallels under Linux. It works quite well and seems to provide a very good protection for my normal system. You need enough disk space and system memory to use this approach (as is the case with Xen or VMware) but most "modern" systems should allow one to operate this way. 4. The Ubuntu version of Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/) is very user friendly. 5. "Tibetan Wi-Fi Website Attacked", Wired (17 Aug 2006). http://www.wired.com/news/technology/internet/0,71617-0.html 6. "Personal Firewalls Mostly Useless, Says Mail & Guardian" http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/136257 7. "Why home firewall software is a leaky dike" http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=275381&area=/insight/insight_tech/ 8. Google: "site hacked" gives over 3 million results. 9. Rhode Island: http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/holes/story/0,10801,108199,00.html 10. Virgina: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NEW/is_2001_June_11/ai_75497725 11. Malaysia: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NEW/is_2001_Jan_4/ai_68738874 12. U.S. Army: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200207/ai_ziff29295 13. "PS3 Client for Folding at Home Debuts, ATI GPU Version Soon" http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/129244 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Fri Aug 25 20:16:56 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:16:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Solar System Planets - Final vote Message-ID: Despite the final vote, it's not over until it is over. There is another planetary camp protesting the vote. It could be very interesting, educational and fun, as long as people keep their heads. Here is a little fun about it, already: http://www.worth1000.com/cache/contest/contestcache.asp?contest_id=11570&display=photoshop#entries Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute, Tucson From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Aug 25 21:01:13 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:01:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Plz help! References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano><001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano><005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <007e01c6c889$9d5a3f90$0200a8c0@Nano> Hello Rob, I am indeed talking about Premier and yes GoBack did install immediately with the program. The were no options for which parts may or may not be installed (you can see these afterwards but not before the install). I burned the iso image to a CD from the site link I provided, and booted from it. This was a removal tool that relieved the problem. Once I returned to Windows I had to go into Norton and remove GoBack from the options, which is permanent. To address your point number 2, while they are not the same, the incompatibility is due to the false partition generated by GoBack and my having a 5 raidcore processor (terabyte), I also have two separate processors on my system. GoBack will not work with a raidcore. They did confirm this with me on the phone. I don't want it to anyway so I'm glad to have it gone and have everything working normally. My work station is not for browsing (the web or sending emails) like this the machine I am using to right now, I only use it to create art and animation. It is a BOXX workstation (which must run on Windows professional) http://www.boxxtech.com/applications/animation_systems.asp which is a professional animation system that allows me to work in a way that an average PC would absolutely choke on (and has in the past). You have probably watched a lot of movies that have used BOXX to generate special effects, broadcast work, make animations and compile movies. The reason why I wanted Norton on my workstation is for the recovery feature, when you are working with files in the number of thousands at one time (all the many frames of animation) it becomes much easier to lose one. If that happens, Norton will allow me to look a level past things that have already been emptied from the recycle bin and recover it. This can be a lifesaver and save an entire project. My programs do not run on anything other than windows, and I really am in love with my programs. I attended animation school to become certified in 3D Studio Max (which I did - and Combustion too), so it is a serious commitment. While I understand your point, and perhaps under different conditions I would consider them and perhaps many should, but I am just not set up that way - I would probably have a physical reaction like get purple spots all over my body and melt into the floor if I could not create art and animation using my programs and my beloved BOXX.......... Gina Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Participating Member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bradbury To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Plz help! On 8/24/06, Gina Miller wrote: Scratch that, I called Norton, they referred me here: http://service1.symantec.com/support/goback.nsf/docid/2005111514174058?Open&src=w apparently Go Back is not compatible with raidcore.........all good now! Gina Gina, I hate to say it and I hope you will not mind me using you as an example, but "All is *not* good". I presume you are talking about "Norton Systemworks Premier" [1]. As the Norton page says "GoBack" is included with the package. Packages typically install everything unless you select the "expert" option in which case they "may" allow you not to install the parts you don't want. Now Norton is probably reliabile enough to allow you paths to get out of the swamp when you fall into it (as you seem to have). The details of your message seem to suggest that you are on the cutting edge enough to get into real trouble. You are installing closed source system backup and scanning software from a 3rd party onto a system which already has closed source software from multiple vendors (Microsoft & whomever is supplying the "raid" system it sounds like you are using) [2]. Now, lets start with the first problem -- Why do you need Norton Systemworks in the first place? Are you running around the Internet in such a "naked" condition that viruses are infecting you left and right (I would hope that ExI list subscribers know better than that). The second problem is -- Why are you still using Windows? Are you absolutely *sure* that the software you require or its equivalent is not available under Linux? Even if its not there are several virtual/emulator approaches (Wine, Parallels, Xen, VMware, etc.) which would allow you to run Windows in a sandbox where it or the nasties it tends to promote in the world should be unable to do undo harm to your basic system. [3] Linux is *free* (and will remain that way forever and ever). It is also open source and so you can receive critical patches as soon as anyone in the world makes them available -- not when some committee in Redmond (in conjuction with its marketing people and lawyers) decide it is "safe" to release them. The people promoting Linux aren't running around trying to get legislatures to pass laws, or distributing software without telling people about its capabilities, that allows them to scan all of the information on you hard drive. Linux comes with virus scanning software (free!) if you really need it (in 32 years of using Unix/Linux I've never needed virus "disinfection" for those systems -- in the decade or so that I used Windows I was careless and may have been infected a couple of times -- but I still cleaned up the problems myself without the need for a "helping" hand.) While Linux used to be somewhat difficult to install that is no longer the case [4] So, I'll stand on the crate in front of the audience and point out very loudly -- if you aren't part of the solution -- you are part of the problem! Now, why is this important? Because the infection of machines that easily enable more infections (i.e. all of those old unupgraded, unprotected, closed source machines) are what allows SPAM to consume an increasing fraction of Internet bandwidth and enables malicious attacks (possibly supported by governments(!)) to take place [5]. Now some of you may be saying, "Oh, I've got this great firewall software installed (e.g. from Microsoft, Norton, McaAfee, etc.) that protects me from all that badness out there on the evil Internet." Sorry [6]! I will note that whether you are running Windows *or* Linux, that because the current Web interface that most people use involves a browser (IE, Firefox, etc.) if you don't have Javascript disabled you are creating the *wide open door* that those Internet nasties can sneak through. Javascript potentially enables a foreign program from any web site you visit to run on your computer! Not a program you explicitly wanted to run (as was the case with those "free" software utilities that people naively downloaded and ran when the WWW was still a relatively safe place to play) but programs that you don't even see. If said programs are clever enough they may sit, quietly... waiting... until your birthday next year when they will spring to life and demand at least 3, maybe 4 figures from you being sent by Western Union to a pickup point in Nigeria before they will turn over the password required to decrypt your hard drive. (You don't really expect the password to work do you?). As is pointed out in [7] by Stefan Wolf, "The primary gateway into the browser is JavaScript," Wolf explains. Users should deactivate the program language in their browser, or use browser extensions to define which web sites are to be trusted to execute JavaScript." Of course it would be nice if you could be sure that certain sites can be "trusted" and could not be compromised, for example government or military sites, but as [8,9,10,11,12,...] point out -- that is probably an example of playing Russian Roulette. Your choice, use whatever software you want. But as the Folding at Home team is pointing out [13] their recent efforts are devoted to pushing the computing capacity at their disposal to 1-10 petaflops. That *is* human brain equivalent capacity. Some of you should be having nightmares where you wake up in a cold sweat wondering if that money that you just wired to Nigeria is going to allow the RogueAI to buy even more computing capacity that will subsequently be used to enslave you even further. Robert 1. http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/overview.jsp?pcid=sp&pvid=nswp2006 2. Though I'm unfamiliar with these packages ("raid core" and GoBack), "Raid" is a *completely* different concept with completely different implementation details from what I suspect "Go Back" would be (a low level file version control system). The two concepts do not perform the same function at all. 3. I personally have used Windows 2000 under Parallels under Linux. It works quite well and seems to provide a very good protection for my normal system. You need enough disk space and system memory to use this approach (as is the case with Xen or VMware) but most "modern" systems should allow one to operate this way. 4. The Ubuntu version of Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/) is very user friendly. 5. "Tibetan Wi-Fi Website Attacked", Wired (17 Aug 2006). http://www.wired.com/news/technology/internet/0,71617-0.html 6. "Personal Firewalls Mostly Useless, Says Mail & Guardian" http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/136257 7. "Why home firewall software is a leaky dike" http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=275381&area=/insight/insight_tech/ 8. Google: "site hacked" gives over 3 million results. 9. Rhode Island: http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/holes/story/0,10801,108199,00.html 10. Virgina: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NEW/is_2001_June_11/ai_75497725 11. Malaysia: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NEW/is_2001_Jan_4/ai_68738874 12. U.S. Army: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200207/ai_ziff29295 13. "PS3 Client for Folding at Home Debuts, ATI GPU Version Soon" http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/129244 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 25 23:02:40 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:02:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> The local PBS channels have been showing Animusic during the pledge drives. This whole robots playing musical instruments thing is so way cool, I am tempted to get a big-screen TV, put a big stuffy chair about 1 meter from the screen, get stoned and watch them go. Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I wouldn't know which end to light, but the music is way cool anyway. {8-] Check it out: http://www.animusic.com/dvd-info-clips-1.html spike From Pvthur at aol.com Fri Aug 25 23:56:50 2006 From: Pvthur at aol.com (Pvthur at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:56:50 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic Message-ID: Doesn't matter which end... no filter. Knock yourself out, kid. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 26 01:34:54 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:34:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608260149.k7Q1nN1W002661@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Pvthur at aol.com Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] animusic >>...I wouldn't know which end to light... spike >Doesn't matter which end...? no filter. Knock yourself out, kid. John Actually that would defeat the purpose. On a slightly related theme, I recently had an insight on why it is that Oregon seems to always be on the leading edge in the legalization of marijuana. On a recent trip there, I noticed that many, seems like most, minimum wagers had horrible dentition. I asked my dentist friend who lives there, and he suggested the reason is entirely due to methamphetamine abuse, which for some reason seems to be an Oregon thing. When one has a cold, the eyes and nose run, but we have over the counter medications that turn off the fountain. The dopers have discovered that the cold tablets can be ground up and the active ingredient extracted chemically. Then one can take the equivalent of about 20 tablets, presumably to have "fun". Of course the salivary glands shut down, the nose and eyes are dry, and most importantly the teeth have not the usual acid neutralizing mechanisms. In order to compensate, the dopers guzzle soda, preferably the high-sugar mountain dew. Bacteria attack the teeth completely unopposed. They crumble in short order. http://www.mappsd.org/Meth%20Mouth%20Photo%20Gallery.htm We see many Oregonian hipsters with few or no teeth. Given a choice between mellow grass hootsters or toothless twenty-somethings, the Oregon government has wisely chosen the former. Perhaps stem cell technology will someday repair the damage. spike From Pvthur at aol.com Sat Aug 26 02:24:55 2006 From: Pvthur at aol.com (Pvthur at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:24:55 EDT Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic Message-ID: Jesus H. McGillicutty... On a totally unrelated theme, I regressed an insight on why it is that too many questions oftimes leads to no answers worth writing about, dentition horrible or not. spike your brownie, teeth be damned -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 15:11:51 2006 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:11:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 8/25/06, spike wrote: ... > Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I wouldn't > know which end to light, ... The end that's not in your mouth. Any time. -- Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 26 15:36:12 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:36:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608261550.k7QFoXJX007773@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > > On 8/25/06, spike wrote: > ... > > Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I wouldn't > > know which end to light, ... > > The end that's not in your mouth. Best, Jeff Davis Mouth? All this time I thought they put it up their noses somehow. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Aug 26 17:13:09 2006 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: <200608261550.k7QFoXJX007773@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608261550.k7QFoXJX007773@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <40463.72.236.103.7.1156612389.squirrel@main.nc.us> Ok... You folks owe me a new keyboard! This one was not impressed with the coffee shower! :))) ROTFL. Spike, how's the boy child ? Is he enjoying his world? Regards, MB spike wrote: >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis >> >> On 8/25/06, spike wrote: >> ... >> > Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I wouldn't >> > know which end to light, ... >> >> The end that's not in your mouth. Best, Jeff Davis > > > Mouth? All this time I thought they put it up their noses somehow. > > spike > > From scerir at libero.it Sat Aug 26 19:02:25 2006 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:02:25 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Lenz-test References: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <000301c6c942$2bd98ce0$8ebd1f97@nomedxgm1aalex> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0608492 'Readers are invited to place a wager [!] on the outcome of the proposed experiment.' http://physics.ucsd.edu/~jorge/lenztest.html From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 27 02:19:33 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:19:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: <40463.72.236.103.7.1156612389.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <200608270224.k7R2Om2O001079@andromeda.ziaspace.com> The newest extropian is quite well thanks. He likes everything he sees. We took him on an all day outing today at Angel Island in the SF Bay. Fatherhood fits me well methinks, better than I expected it would. Babyhood fits him well too. {8-] spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:13 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] animusic > > Ok... You folks owe me a new keyboard! This one was not impressed with the > coffee > shower! :))) ROTFL. > > Spike, how's the boy child ? Is he enjoying his world? > > Regards, > MB From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Aug 27 06:53:44 2006 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:53:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2006, at 4:02 PM, spike wrote: > > > The local PBS channels have been showing Animusic during the pledge > drives. > This whole robots playing musical instruments thing is so way cool, > I am > tempted to get a big-screen TV, put a big stuffy chair about 1 meter > from > the screen, get stoned and watch them go. > > Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I > wouldn't > know which end to light, but the music is way cool anyway. Hmm? I became a geek, officially, by joining up with a bunch of SF techno-hippies in the mid 70s. I got pulled into a group into building their own computers from raw chips and electronics. We were out to bring power to the people, computer power that is. Thing was the meetings had so much pot being passed that if you couldn't be quite stoned and yet focused you wouldn't make it. It was all psychedelic folks. Including a couple of dudes that happened by with a prototype computer in a wooden case one meeting. So being a geek doesn't mean you don't know which end to light. Not that it matters of course. - samantha From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Aug 27 11:56:18 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:56:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: <40463.72.236.103.7.1156612389.squirrel@main.nc.us> References: <200608261550.k7QFoXJX007773@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <40463.72.236.103.7.1156612389.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, MB wrote: > > Ok... You folks owe me a new keyboard! This one was not impressed with the > coffee shower! :))) ROTFL. Totally off topic, but having dumped coffee all over the keyboard on several occasions - turn it upside down very quickly, shake it up and down (stopping the "down" acceleration quickly) to get the coffee out entirely or draining into the keys rather than onto the mylar film with the keyboard circuit traces. Dry it as much as possible with a paper towel and then preferably let the coffee evaporate with the keyboard upside down (hair dryer might help accelerate the process). This will "usually" prevent the acid and ions in the coffie from etching traces or creating electrical paths where they shouldn't be. If you have a so-damaged keyboard rewetting it to dilute the coffee ions with low-ion water and following the same procedure might help (though I haven't tried this). You can disassemble the keybard and give the mylar (which may be in multiple layers) a sponge bath as well (but this is for "true" geeks). What happened to the cool geek idea that we should be able to "talk" to the mouse (and thus allow ditching the keyboard)? Oh, and Spike, I'm *sure* if you google a little bit you will find the new Extropian is most probably contributing to an altered mental state due to the increased presence of "natural" chemicals, most probably oxytocin. No inhaling required -- though now that I think about it I wonder if baby smells induce oxytocin production? R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 27 12:42:00 2006 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:42:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: References: <200608261550.k7QFoXJX007773@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <40463.72.236.103.7.1156612389.squirrel@main.nc.us> Message-ID: On 8/27/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > Totally off topic, but having dumped coffee all over the keyboard on several > occasions - turn it upside down very quickly, shake it up and down > (stopping the "down" acceleration quickly) to get the coffee out entirely or > draining into the keys rather than onto the mylar film with the keyboard > circuit traces. Dry it as much as possible with a paper towel and then > preferably let the coffee evaporate with the keyboard upside down (hair > dryer might help accelerate the process). This will "usually" prevent the > acid and ions in the coffie from etching traces or creating electrical paths > where they shouldn't be. If you have a so-damaged keyboard rewetting it to > dilute the coffee ions with low-ion water and following the same procedure > might help (though I haven't tried this). You can disassemble the keybard > and give the mylar (which may be in multiple layers) a sponge bath as well > (but this is for "true" geeks). > Not normally found in the home, but 'waterproof' 'sealed' 'spill-proof' 'flexible' keyboards are readily available for industrial and medical uses. Keyboards harbour more germs than your toilet, so it is especially important in hospitals to use sealed keyboards. Some of them are not too expensive, starting at around 20 or 30 USD. But you would have to be able to try them out to make sure you could live with their 'touch and feel'. (Or make sure you can return it, if you don't like it). BillK From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Aug 27 13:21:16 2006 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:21:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support for an EP model of war. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060827091601.02f54400@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Some of you on this list have read my "evolution psychology, meme and the origin of war" paper. Here is additional supporting evidence for the thesis, though they don't discuss the evolved psychological mechanisms behind the behavior. Keith **************** Radiocarbon dating indicated that people relocated their residences to fortified interior locations 300 years after the island was colonized. "These were all related people who arrived in Rapa," Kennett said. "They generally get along and collaborate when they arrive, but with time and growing populations there was division, then competition between different family lineages, resulting in significant amounts of aggression. This division led to the establishment of fortifications in not very desirable locations, such as mountaintop ridges, where it's cold, windy, inhospitable for crops, and far away from water." snip "The archaeological landscape is phenomenal," Kennett said. "There are domestic and agricultural terraces all around the island. Many of the ridge tops are flattened and there are staircases carved into the mountainsides. Arable land and access to fishing grounds were limited, and the farming areas and fish traps would have been well defended." snip "Rapa is a compelling story," Kennett said. "To me, this is an example of what's happening on the planet today in terms of expanding populations, environmental degradation and increasing warfare. Rapa is a little microcosm of our planet. There are lessons about the consequences of population growth to be learned there." snip The National Geographic Society, Australian National University and the University of Oregon funded the research. Source: University of Oregon http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060825201027.htm From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 27 16:02:07 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:02:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608271602.k7RG2ETg018085@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins ... > > Hmm? I became a geek, officially, by joining up with a bunch of SF > techno-hippies in the mid 70s... Thing was > the meetings had so much pot being passed that if you couldn't be > quite stoned and yet focused you wouldn't make it. It was all > psychedelic folks. Including a couple of dudes that happened by with > a prototype computer in a wooden case one meeting. ... - samantha That must have been a California thing Samantha. My high school years were slightly later; the two stoners with the prototype computer were already distributing their products by then. In those days the stoners and the techno-geeks never hung out together, didn't like each other. The stoners were kinda retro in a lot of ways. Historians may attribute the political right surge of the 1980s to the influence of Reagan, but that trend was well under way before he got to Washington. The one thing I really hated about that trend was that by the late 70s the hipsters were insisting on preppy clothes, which were a lot more expensive than the rags that were perfectly OK in the anti-materialistic 70s. I liked the cheap tatterdemalian look, still do. Of course we geeks never knew the difference, but still. {8-] spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 27 18:34:57 2006 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:34:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic: new old age music? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608271835.k7RIZ5gA017050@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bradbury Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] animusic On 8/26/06, MB wrote: Ok... You folks owe me a new keyboard! This one was not impressed with the coffee shower! :)))??ROTFL. Totally off topic, but having dumped coffee all over the keyboard on several occasions? ... To steer this back to a topic on which I have at least a modicum of actual knowledge, do allow me to pose a question. The animusic DVDs are animated robots playing music reminiscent of artists like Kitaro, Keiko Matsui, sounds that we would have referred to back in the 80s as New Age. But in the 70s, hits from the 50s were called Golden Oldies. New Age music is now older than the oldies were back then, so do we still call it New Age? Or is it New Age Oldies? Middle Age music? Either way, animusic is still wicked cool. spike http://www.animusic.com/ From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Sun Aug 27 23:09:36 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:09:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] animusic References: <200608252322.k7PNMKU5007005@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <024d01c6ca2d$f1e825e0$bb0a0751@heritagekd9czj> >> Being a geek, I am too square to even know how to get stoned, I wouldn't >> know which end to light, ... You could always go with just eating it - that might not impress everyone else so much if it's a good will pass around. John From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Aug 29 20:37:31 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:37:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] test References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano><001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano><005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <004a01c6cbab$4abbddf0$0200a8c0@Nano> test -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.heritage at v21.me.uk Tue Aug 29 23:03:51 2006 From: john.heritage at v21.me.uk (John) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:03:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] test References: <01a601c6c35b$9471bd00$0200a8c0@Nano><001501c6c7da$eeb512c0$0200a8c0@Nano><005101c6c7e8$76c7bf20$0200a8c0@Nano> <004a01c6cbab$4abbddf0$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <001101c6cbbf$64dbdb40$e9150751@heritagekd9czj> pong ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:37 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] test test ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Wed Aug 30 00:12:16 2006 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:12:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC News: "Frozen Mice Have Healthy Pups" Message-ID: <380-22006833001216328@M2W017.mail2web.com> Frozen Mice Have Healthy Pups -- (BBC -- August 15, 2006) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4793915.stm Mice kept in the deep freeze for 15 years have fathered healthy offspring, say scientists in Japan and Hawaii. It offers hope to those trying to bring extinct animals back from the dead. In the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers wrote: "If spermatozoa of extinct mammalian species (eg woolly mammoths) can be retrieved from animal bodies that were kept frozen for millions of years in permanent frost, live animals might be restored by injecting them into oocytes from females of closely related species." Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Aug 30 06:35:49 2006 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:35:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC News: "Frozen Mice Have Healthy Pups" References: <380-22006833001216328@M2W017.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <002e01c6cbfe$fc382ef0$0200a8c0@Nano> Thank you for this link! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Everything else blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Participating Member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3D/Animation http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org ; ART-tac at yahoo.groups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:12 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC News: "Frozen Mice Have Healthy Pups" Frozen Mice Have Healthy Pups -- (BBC -- August 15, 2006) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4793915.stm Mice kept in the deep freeze for 15 years have fathered healthy offspring, say scientists in Japan and Hawaii. It offers hope to those trying to bring extinct animals back from the dead. In the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers wrote: "If spermatozoa of extinct mammalian species (eg woolly mammoths) can be retrieved from animal bodies that were kept frozen for millions of years in permanent frost, live animals might be restored by injecting them into oocytes from females of closely related species." Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From asa at nada.kth.se Wed Aug 30 07:38:26 2006 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:38:26 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Jokebook In-Reply-To: <002e01c6cbfe$fc382ef0$0200a8c0@Nano> References: <380-22006833001216328@M2W017.mail2web.com> <002e01c6cbfe$fc382ef0$0200a8c0@Nano> Message-ID: <3154.213.112.92.193.1156923506.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> At TV06 I accepted the offer to edit the "Transhumanist Joke Book" for TV07 (surprise, persuasion and drink can do that to you). One can often judge the memetic health of a movement by its sense of humour. Does it have one? Is it just directed outwards? Is it creative? Let's demonstrate our cognitive flexibility! The idea as I see it is to collect good transhumanist humour - be it jokes from and about transhumanism and transhumanist subjects, poking fun at bioconservatives and human stupidity, great postings, cartoons, maybe also TH filk, poetry and short stories. I'm aiming at TH specific jokes rather than general tech or sf jokes, although there is going to be some overlap of course. There are extropian lightbulb joke lists going back to 1992, but I'm pretty sure there are much more recent and fresh ideas around. What about transhumanist drinking songs? (for alcohol, nootropics, liquid nitrogen during suspensions and who knows what else) Can we use MRI and testing to find the optimal transhumanist joke? Practically I will likely start compiling for real sometime in spring, but I would appreciate submissions and suggestions. To help me sort it all, please email me with THUMOUR in the subject line. At the very least the joke book would be a website, but if I get enough interesting material who knows what media it may end up in. Maybe even clay tablets - I have heard that they are the next big thing. "The goal of transhumanism is to make gods that can pun." -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From femmechakra at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 02:39:00 2006 From: femmechakra at gmail.com (Anna Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:39:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) Message-ID: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> I would like to know what are the significant differences between the Extropian chat list and the Sl4 list? or What are the differences between believing in the Singularity and being an Extropian or Transhumanist? Just curious Anna:) From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 09:24:13 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:24:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Anna Taylor wrote: > > I would like to know what are the significant differences between the > Extropian chat list and the Sl4 list? Anna, the Sl4 list tends to have a greater focus on artificial intelligence and the singularity than the Extropian list. I believe, very subjectively, this may be due to the fact that some (many?) of the Sl4 subscribers believe that an AI "overlord" may be essential to a "well managed" Singularity. Or perhaps that they believe an AI will bring about the Singularity more quickly. What are the differences between believing in the Singularity and > being an Extropian or Transhumanist? I believe that most Extropians or Transhumanists believe that the Singularity is happening. The fine points involve (a) How fast is it happening? (b) Should it be accelerated or delayed? and (c) Are there "external" philosophical guidelines as to how to best manage it? Briefly... An Extropian wants to save as much past & present information as possible and maximize the amount of future information available (with careful consideration as to how much past or present information may be lost). A transhumanist just wants it to happen quickly (so they can get the benefits presumably [if some information or people get "lost" in the process they are less concerned]). A Sl4 proponent probably believes that an advanced general AI or a friendly AI are the best (fastest?) and/or safest way to get to and/or through the Singularity. I'm sure there are quite different views however. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From naogrist at yahoo.com Wed Aug 30 09:44:02 2006 From: naogrist at yahoo.com (Daniel Wolfson) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060830094402.88164.qmail@web35305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To explain the difference I will make a single statement definition of what a Tranhumanist is, what an Extropian is and what a Singulatarian is. Tranhumanists are people who believe technology can help us transcend our limitations and that that is desirable. Extropians are transhumanists who believe in the Principles of Extropy. Singulatarians believe in the probability and desirability of the Singularity, the predicted future event believed to precede immense technological progress in an unprecedentedly brief time. So the point is one can be a tranhumanist, extropian, and singulitarian at the same time, but not all transhumanists are extropians, not all extropians are singulitarians, and not all singulitarians are extropians. I don't know the differences between this list and SL4 though. --- Anna Taylor wrote: > I would like to know what are the significant > differences between the > Extropian chat list and the Sl4 list? > or > What are the differences between believing in the > Singularity and > being an Extropian or Transhumanist? > > Just curious > Anna:) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From James.Hughes at trincoll.edu Wed Aug 30 13:29:43 2006 From: James.Hughes at trincoll.edu (Hughes, James J.) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:29:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Jokebook Message-ID: <8CF6A92CB628444FB3C757618CD28039D653A6@exbe1.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu> Excellent Anders. Please also include funny H+ songs (filk) as well. Charlie Kam's song "I am the very model of a Singularitarian ..." was a big hit when we posted it at transhumanism.org. ------------------------ James Hughes Ph.D. Executive Director, World Transhumanist Association http://transhumanism.org Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies http://ieet.org Editor, Journal of Evolution and Technology http://jetpress.org Williams 229B, Trinity College 300 Summit St., Hartford CT 06106 (office) 860-297-2376 director at ieet.org From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 15:12:47 2006 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:12:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ce64f10608300812v2ca6637ch4de48f7d7e9f1131@mail.gmail.com> Anna, I have a summary of various transhumanist discussion lists here: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=136 On 8/30/06, Daniel Wolfson wrote: > in the Principles of Extropy. Singulatarians believe > in the probability and desirability of the > Singularity, the predicted future event believed to > precede immense technological progress in an > unprecedentedly brief time. Mispelled and misdefined Singularitarianism. It has little to do with technological progress, but rather smarter-than-human intelligence. Even if technological progress were slowing down, we could still have a Singularity, because it's fundamentally a *cognitive* advance, not related to technology-in-general except insofar as it would be a specific technological advance with cogntive results. Here's my short summary: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/works/singularitarianism.htm On 8/30/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > Anna, the Sl4 list tends to have a greater focus on artificial intelligence > and the singularity than the Extropian list. I believe, very subjectively, > this may be due to the fact that some (many?) of the Sl4 subscribers believe > that an AI "overlord" may be essential to a "well managed" Singularity. Or > perhaps that they believe an AI will bring about the Singularity more > quickly. No, many of us believe AI will reach superintelligence first due to it being technologically easier, so we *have* to focus on AI if we want the Singularity to go well at all. We're forced to. Talking about AI "overlords" means you've been reading too much science fiction. In sci-fi, the AIs are almost always overlords, and rarely anything else. In the real world, we'd want AIs to be our partners rather than overlords. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 30 14:59:14 2006 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:59:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Solar System Planets Definition - Petition and Grassroot efforts Message-ID: A petition (*) going around the planetary community (unfortunately during holiday time in Europe) to protest the IAU decision is closed now (**). It will be transmitted to the International Astronomical Union (IAU). However, since the IAU meets only once every 3 years, this issue won't be able to be resolved by them until 2009. In these next years then, an effort is underway to involve many people (scientists and nonscientists and the public) in order to resolve whether planets should be defined based on their dynamical properties or based on their intrinsic properties or perhaps another way. Meanwhile more than 800 KBOs (1) have been found and that number is increasing .... Amara (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt ================================================================== (*) It started out like this: Less than 5% of the astronomical community voted at the Prague IAU for a definition of 'planet' that uses dynamics (location) rather than intrinsic properties to decide if an object is or is not a planet. This result is counter to other classification schemes in astronomy (e.g., stars, galaxies, nebulae, even asteroids) in which dynamical context does not play a controlling role. Furthermore, it produces results that are incongruous and cannot be extended within our own solar system or to extra-solar planetary systems without producing immediate results that are patently absurd: e.g., a Neptune-sized object discovered beyond 150 AU could not be a planet, the presence of an Earth orbiting its star between a Jupiter and a Saturn would mean the Earth could not be considered a planet since it could not clear its "neighborhood". This definition also excludes Pluto from planethood in our solar system, something that is both scientifically questionable and publicly problematic. Both Pluto and a distant Neptune would be classified as a "dwarf planet", which is not to be considered a subcategory of "planet". -------------------------------------------- (**) http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/planetprotest/ Petition Protesting the IAU Planet Definition We, as planetary scientists and astronomers, do not agree with the IAU's definition of a planet, nor will we use it. A better definition is needed. SIGNATURES (Final - August 30, 2006 6 AM PST) [PDF] Sufficient signatures from planetary scientists and astronomers have been gathered to bring into serious question the definition for planet adopted by the IAU as fundamentally flawed, as was the process by which it was generated. The list of signatories have studied every planet in the solar system, asteroids, comets, the Kuiper Belt, and planet interactions with space environment. They have been involved in the robotic exploration of the solar system from some of the earliest missions to Cassini/Huygens, the missions to Mars, ongoing missions to the innermost and outermost reaches of our solar system, and are leading missions preparing to be launched. The list includes prominent experts in the field of planet formation and evolution, planetary atmospheres, planetary surfaces and interiors, and includes international prize winning researchers. The IAU is incapable of correcting this action until its next General Assembly in 2009. In the meantime, the IAU definition will stand as a source of confusion and incongruity to educators and the public. An alternative is needed. Planning is underway to establish an open and inclusive grass-roots process by which planetary scientists and astronomers from around the world can approach a better resolution to the issue of planets in our own solar system and elsewhere, with every step and discussion in public view. This process should culminate in a conference, not to determine a winner, but to acknowledge a consensus. The discussion will be wide ranging and should offer the public a fascinating and educational view of scientific discourse on a topic to which they can all relate. A further announcement will be made in September from the initial sponsoring institutions. Planetary Science Institute Southwest Research Institute -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 30 16:54:49 2006 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:54:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608300812v2ca6637ch4de48f7d7e9f1131@mail.gmail.com> References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> <51ce64f10608300812v2ca6637ch4de48f7d7e9f1131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060830165449.GX14701@leitl.org> On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 08:12:47AM -0700, Michael Anissimov wrote: > Talking about AI "overlords" means you've been reading too much > science fiction. In sci-fi, the AIs are almost always overlords, and > rarely anything else. In the real world, we'd want AIs to be our > partners rather than overlords. Just as we are partners with chimps and gorillas. Or with life on this planet in general. Science fiction? Unfortunately, not. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 17:57:28 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:57:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10608300812v2ca6637ch4de48f7d7e9f1131@mail.gmail.com> References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> <51ce64f10608300812v2ca6637ch4de48f7d7e9f1131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/30/06, Michael Anissimov wrote: > It has little to do with > technological progress, but rather smarter-than-human intelligence. > Even if technological progress were slowing down, we could still have > a Singularity, because it's fundamentally a *cognitive* advance, not > related to technology-in-general except insofar as it would be a > specific technological advance with cogntive results. Actually Michael, I disagree strongly with the statement that the Singularity is a result or must be based upon "cognitive advances" [1]. It is related primarily to population, knowledge and wealth, which in turn depend upon the technology at ones disposal. The progress does not involve any significant changes to human cognition which has existed for the last several thousand years. [2] The increase in population gives us greater aggregate computational power. An increase in knowledge and accumulated wealth allows us to live longer, healthier lives and devote an increased fraction of that knowledge and wealth towards increasing knowledge and accumulating more wealth. That knowledge reached the tipping point sometime in the last 40 years -- whether you view it in the invention of the transistor, the IC, the microprocessor, the Web, or Google (or some combination of these) [3]. At that point the growth of knowledge shifted significantly above the population growth rate, thus accelerating us the "natural" March to the Singularity rate. The *only* part of the Singularity that requires cognitive enhancement is the part of it which requires progress or insight which exceeds the capacity of a single human mind or a groups of well educated minds. For almost anything seen in the "transhumanist" vision (lifespan extension, posthuman bodies, robust molecular nanotechnology (the Feynman/Drexler vision), living for "free" (Sapphire Mansions), relatively unlimited energy, solar system development (Matrioshka Brains), galactic colonization (Far Side Parties), mind uploading, cryonic reanimation, etc. it can be done *without* advanced AI. The only thing that advanced AI *might* (and I stress might) do is accelerate the Singularity progress rate. Robert 1. Unless your emphasis on "cognition" is weighted heavily towards the "knowledge" (information) aspect. Entire fields such from archeology to paleontology are based on our ability to develop ways to think about raw information. It is the information and our innate ability to think about it which important. 2. One could view the "tipping" point for the start of the Singularity as the mutations in a few human genes which promoted human migration, exploration and perhaps aggression. They tipped the scales so as to allow humans to populate the world and avoid single region extinctions due to the natural hazard function. 3. One could extend this backwards to things like the Library of Alexandria or even clay tablets used in Babylon (which enabled the replication of knowledge allowing it to survive the death of single humans or tribes of humans). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From femmechakra at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 23:28:26 2006 From: femmechakra at gmail.com (Anna Taylor) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:28:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11cc03d50608301628i5a881fe5p409d59e572b05b08@mail.gmail.com> I have read every single post on the Extropy chat available as well as every post on the Sl4 list. My confusion doesn't lie in the terms, conditions and ideas of each group or the information provided. My concerns: The enormous information that most people need to read even to commence to grasp some of those ideas. There are so many opinions and organizations dealing with different issues, unless someone is extremely motivated to learn, I don't see how most of the general population will ever be able to keep up. I truly believe that technology will accelerate whether I like it or not. I do wonder what will happen once technology reaches a point that the humans that are not knowledgeable of such information will be left behind. Although I'm not supposed to mention religion, I can't grasp how the world of technology is going to interelate with the world of religion when scientists in general choose to either not talk about it or ridicule it as well as religions that deny evolution and refuse to progress with time. Religion plays a huge role on the planet earth, whether I like it or not, how can technology and religion coexist? Anyhow, just some thoughts i've had, thanks for the response and links. Anna:) On 8/29/06, Anna Taylor wrote: > I would like to know what are the significant differences between the > Extropian chat list and the Sl4 list? > or > What are the differences between believing in the Singularity and > being an Extropian or Transhumanist? > > Just curious > Anna:) > From pj at pj-manney.com Thu Aug 31 14:33:47 2006 From: pj at pj-manney.com (pjmanney) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:33:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) Message-ID: <23389966.913931157034827068.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 16:10:11 2006 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:10:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <11cc03d50608301628i5a881fe5p409d59e572b05b08@mail.gmail.com> References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> <11cc03d50608301628i5a881fe5p409d59e572b05b08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/30/06, Anna Taylor wrote: > The enormous information that most people need to read even to > commence to grasp some of those ideas. Yes. To effectively be able to grasp the concepts involved in transhumanism you are talking multiple college level courses. One could easily see degrees devoted to the topic (which would involve 2-3 years of college level courses). You have to keep in mind there are multiple PhDs theses and college level textbooks (Nanosystems, Nanomedicine, etc.) upon which many of the concepts rest. There are so many opinions and organizations dealing with different > issues, unless someone is extremely motivated to learn, I don't see > how most of the general population will ever be able to keep up. They aren't -- other than in the limited way they adopt subsets of the technology such as cell phones, Blackberries, iPods, and in the not-so-distant future cars which drive themselves. I truly believe that technology will accelerate whether I like it or not. Yes, this is the first thing one has to accept to realize there is a problem. (There is only a small fraction of the human population that really love increasing rates of change.) I do wonder what will happen once technology reaches a point that the > humans that are not knowledgeable of such information will be left behind. They aren't "left behind" so much as there is a class division developing. Just as we have the "poor" and the "rich", the "uneducated" and the "educated" we will have the "techno-savvy" and the "techno-illiterate". Although I'm not supposed to mention religion, I can't grasp how the > world of technology is going to interelate with the world of religion > when scientists in general choose to either not talk about it or > ridicule it as well as religions that deny evolution and refuse to > progress with time. Change is hard. Particularly when a large fraction of the population was indoctrinated with historic meme sets before they developed the ability for rational thought and learned the knowledge foundation necessary for thinking about "reality". Religion can coexist completely with technology so long as it is comfortable confining itself to the area of "unresolvable beliefs". It is when you try to move those beliefs into "reality" or "policy" -- such as should or should not scientists manipulate stem cells, the human genome, develop artificial intelligences, uplift animals, etc. So long as religions confine themselves to personal reality and not force their individual historic realities onto the evolving technological reality things will be fine. Only if the people who have an investment in a specific religion being the *one* true religion and try to overlay that onto the technological reality is there a problem. As the technological reality is the one we really live in then the religious realities are only noise around the edges. The problem will be if those with the various religious (or political) agendas try to force themselves onto the technological reality. One can see these tensions in places like North Korea, China and Iran. Religion plays a huge role on the planet earth, whether I like it or > not, how can technology and religion coexist? They already are. In fact religions are using technology to increase the spread of their memes to those who are susceptible to them. I ultimately come back to genetics -- the desire to survive is built into our DNA -- when push comes to shove most will choose to follow those paths which clearly enable survival (i.e. lifespan extension technology, genome upgrades, uploads, etc.) while those who have chosen to blindly follow the historic meme sets will gradually become extinct. (Nice to watch natural selection in action :-)). Now, of course the desire to reproduce is also built into our DNA, but as the technologies improve to make education cheaper (witness for example Negroponte's work on laptops for the 3rd world at $140 each), Wikipedia, universal web access (via cellphones) people will manage reproduction better and children will have better information sources than the local village witch doctor (minster, priest, etc.). Anyhow, just some thoughts i've had, thanks for the response and links. If people aren't aware of them the recent books by Sam Harris and Danniel Dennett may be good places to start on how we engage in the "science" v. "religion" collision. Side note to PJ -- you are correct regarding "bilingualism". We need a lot more "popular" work explaining these ideas to people in easy to understand terms [1]. I would suggest a strong emphasis on ideas built into people -- desire to survive, desire to live freely, desire for ones children to have the best opportunities, etc. If you translate TH ideas into those terms they will sell themselves. Robert 1. It would be interesting to know the sales numbers for TSIN -- I would expect them to be low because not many people will pick up and read a 650 page heavily referenced book. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 16:12:47 2006 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:12:47 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <23389966.913931157034827068.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <23389966.913931157034827068.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <470a3c520608310912w2adac4b3x95370fcee8ba6038@mail.gmail.com> I am in complete agreement with P here. I also thing that now the language H+ers speak is intellectual, logical, dispassionate, scientific, disciplined, and philosophical, and that we should learn to speak ALSO the language of moving visuals, aural, emotional, subjective, intimate, instant, and most importantly, in a narrative (words taken from P's blog). Why? Because this is the native language of the majority of people that we want to reach. G. On 8/31/06, pjmanney wrote: > > about making H+ more people-friendly by being able > to speak to them in a language they understand. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 16:19:51 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] LINKS: P.J. Manney's New Blog, The Space Show Message-ID: <5366105b0608310919v76049f15t894f7f861309107c@mail.gmail.com> Thursday, 31 August 2006 Hello all: Formerly I avoided link-dumps here and on my blog because I deemed social bookmarking services a better method for flagging good links than mailing lists and blog posts. I still do, but sometimes a little note helps. P.J. Manney's new >H-related home page http://www.pj-manney.com/ P.J. Manney's new >H-related blog http://pj-manney.blogspot.com/ You can find this blog and many others bookmarked at http://del.icio.us/tag/transhumanism+blog The Space Show, a podcast self-described as focussed "on timely and important issues influencing the development of outer-space commerce and space", had four guests of interest here in the last week: Robert Bigelow of Genesis I fame, Howard Bloom, Brad Edwards of space elevator fame, and the Space Frontier Foundation's Executive Director Jeff Krukin. You can find all the episodes here http://www.thespaceshow.com/ or through GigaDial, the podcasting network that supports T.S.S., or through my Odeo Inbox, http://www.odeo.com/inbox/JayDugger OBLIGATORY >H CONTENT: P.J.M.'s new web presence deserves mention. T.S.S. works to enrich our civilization's possibilities. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 16:26:10 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:26:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: References: <11cc03d50608291939u3fc8114ej4b5b887d108b6319@mail.gmail.com> <11cc03d50608301628i5a881fe5p409d59e572b05b08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0608310926l33c403cdy22fd8e80c489704f@mail.gmail.com> Thursday, 31 August 2006 On 8/31/06, Robert Bradbury wrote: > > > On 8/30/06, Anna Taylor wrote: > [snip] > Side note to PJ -- you are correct regarding "bilingualism". We need a lot > more "popular" > work explaining these ideas to people in easy to understand terms [1]. I > would suggest a > strong emphasis on ideas built into people -- desire to survive, desire to > live freely, > desire for ones children to have the best opportunities, etc. If you > translate TH ideas > into those terms they will sell themselves. > [snip] Anders Sandberg's recent mention of a transhumanist joke collection might serve as a popularizing vehicle, assuming it doesn't entirely consist of in-jokes and that the collection proves easily accessible. So remember that when you make submissions! -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 19:17:22 2006 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:17:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] REQUEST: Book Review of Bart Kosko's "Noise" Message-ID: <5366105b0608311217w3b3abdbbx96db3ff72de0e939@mail.gmail.com> Thursday, 31 August 2006 Hello all: I noticed Bart Kosko has a new non-fiction book titled "Noise." Has anyone a pointer to a reliable review? Amazon Reviews are my last choice, unless I know the reviewer's reputation. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com Thu Aug 31 18:52:31 2006 From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still confused:) In-Reply-To: <23389966.913931157034827068.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <20060831185231.26033.qmail@web56515.mail.re3.yahoo.com> PJ: Hi, I remember you from the conversation on Michael's blog...the point that I initially reacted to in what you seemed to be saying was the suggestion that in order to get more women interested in H+, we somehow need to present technology as something that can be applied to traditional, stereotypical feminine tasks and roles. I probably read your note about vaccuum cleaners and video games as childrens' entertainment more literally than you intended it to be taken, though. However, the above is resolved (in a sense) by your reconceptualization of the "goal at hand" as a form of bilingualism -- in part because this call for bilingualism is gender-neutral and therefore more realistic, since while generalizations may be useful in terms of allowing statistical analysis of trends within a population, they have an unfortunate tendency to neglect the outliers. And outliers are just as real and valid as anyone else. I certainly don't have any problem with appealing to different thought processes...one of my own pet causes is that of "neurodiversity", which takes the position (at least in my interpretation) that society has an unfortunate tendency to pathologize things that, far from being defects, are simply evidence that there's more than one valid way to function and exist as a sentient being. And by recognizing these alternate / nonstandard ways of functioning, more people in society will be able to contribute and coexist peacefully and productively. I think better communication between diverse groups and persons can certainly occur without forcing those groups or persons to assimilate or sacrifice traits and talents valued by such entities. However, I am not in agreement with an occasional tendency I observe wherein, whenever a smallish group / movement / philosophy forms, this entity (however loosely defined) must start applying role constraints to its members (e.g., "You're a woman, so your job is to recruit more women!") for the purpose of perpetuating the group's ideas. Nevertheless, language and practices that specifically exclude or discriminate (and I realize not all discrimination is overt or obvious) must certainly be watched and controlled so they don't end up alienating people unjustly. I would suggest that perhaps if this bilingualism is to become an actualized goal, it first needs to be determined what the point of the resultant bilingual communication should be (I suppose it would be to bring liberating technological advances to a wider sphere of people, thereby improving quality of life and opportunity for everyone) and whether there is actually any genuine discriminatory /exclusionary force (or forces) at work. If there is, it should certainly be identified and pointed out and addressed. And of course, there's nothing wrong with making technology fun...humor is one of the best ways to make anything less scary to a wider audience. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: