Belated reply to Spike was Re: [extropy-chat] Impeachment of etc

[Brett Paatsch]

[Spike I was away from my PC for longer than I thought I
would be over the christmas new year break and whilst
I read some posts to the Extropy Chat list I wasn't getting
email between 23 December and 13 January] 

Spike wrote:

>> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brett Paatsch
> ...
>>
>> We were getting race riots here in Australia.
>>
>> Home grown plotters have been reported in
>> the papers citing the invasion of Iraq as reasons
>> why they want to do something. Do something
>> like kill the Prime Minister and/or his family.
> ...
>> Brett Paatsch
>
>
> Brett I am still pondering the rest of your post, but
> to this comment I will respond on my way out.
> I have no doubt that the local papers cited the
> invasion of Iraq as a reason the rioters want to
> do something.

The race riots and home grown plotters were two
separate paragraphs (I was writing a lot in trying
to communicate with you but I got tired and 
abbreviated).

The race riots which do seem to have subsided are 
only symptomatic of tensions coming to the surface.
The Howard government is or now has changed 
terrorism laws here and almost all the civil libs groups
are upset. No surprise there I suppose but the media
around that feeds into the sense that Muslims are being
picked on, and of course to a certain extent they are.
Everyone says profiling isn't done exactly that would be
prejudice but of course it is. 

> The reporter who wrote this might have searched
> and found someone who made such a comment, or 
> failing that, imagined one.

You give me too little credit for reading critically
Spike. 

I don't ask you to trust me but don't please don't
assume I'm an idiot. If you don't trust me and want 
evidence then do ask for it and I'll probably be able
to give it to you. 

---

The front page story of the 17-18 December Weekend Australian
carried the story "Police taped terror plot to kill Howard".

The Weekend Australian, 17-12-2005. 

"TWO Melbourne terror suspects discussed killing
John Howard and his family, launching a large-scale 
attack at a football game and causing carnage at a train
station as part of a religious war in Australia. 

In a series of chilling conversations caught on police listening 
devices and revealed yesterday, self-styled Muslim cleric 
Abdul Nacer Benbrika, 46, and 20-year old Abdulla Merhi
discussed the terror plot as payback for the deaths of Muslims. 

"For example, if John Howard kills innocent Muslim families do
we .. do we have to kill him and his family ... (and) his people,
like at the football?" asked Mr Mehri. Mr Benbrika allegedly
replied: "If they kill our kids, we kill little kids."

"We send a message back to them", Mr Mehri allegedly said.

"That's it, an eye for an eye," Mr Benbrika replied.

The conversations, recorded on September 24 were played to
the Melbourne Magistrates Court during the unsuccessful bail
applications of two of the accused men who were charged 
after last month's early morning anti-terror raids in Melbourne."
----

So its not some reporter finding some bozo to bear out some
theory what is being quoted are comments on a police tape
being offered as evidence in court. 


> Like here
> and everywhere else, Australian news reporters
> have their own agendas to promote. 

Of course. 

>                         Of course
> they must sell newspapers, otherwise they would
> need to find a real job.

That's a tad harsh. Ben Franklin was a pamphleteer
as I understand.  There is real value in some news
papers they just need to be used intelligently. 

> It is much easier for me to believe that these riots
> are made up of good old fashioned motives that
> have always been with us: bored idle young men,
> territoriality made more acute by the persistent
> and increasing shortage of public-accessible
> oceanfront, real or perceived unfairness resulting
> in relative poverty, add testosterone and alcohol,
> stir vigorously.

Elements of that are likely to be true, but its not that
simple. 

> Look at the pictures of the rioters.  Do you see
> anyone there who looks over 40?  I see plenty of
> teens and twenties aching to demonstrate their
> manly courage. 

I can't specifically recall seeing any that look over
40 but I recall reading that at least one was 39. 

But you can't discern a bunch of rioters motives from 
pictures alone now *you* are speculating.   

> Young men like to fight; humans have evolved that way.

If you are going to be that simplistic about it, all humans
like to fight.  The genes go to the females as well.  

In this case though one group targeted was "the Lebs", short
for Lebanese. Its culture (including the media) that effects that
sort of targeting not genes.  

> But this is actually good news, for the average population
> is increasing everywhere on this planet. As time goes on, the
> world will have ever fewer of the young and the restless, and
> ever more of the old and the helpless, resulting in a more
> peaceful (even if more boring) world.

Spike, you are underestimating the depth of feeling that is around.
Whether the media is true or not it is around and it does influence. 

You don't seem to be reading the lessons of the bombings in London
where the bombers were home grown. 

In June last year there were ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence
Organisation) raids in the street where I live. During the day a friend
and I noticed federal police all over my neighbours yard and the next
day when I went out to collect the garbage bins in the morning I was
met by about thirty television newspaper and radio reporters who
were looking to interview neighbours like me or anyone who'd talk 
to them who might know anything about a raid that had taken place
under the new ASIO laws. The media interest was heightened 
because these were the first raids and those raided were not allowed
by law to speak to the media - they risk imprisonment or penalty 
for even saying a family member had been arrested or some such
silliness.

Since then about 10 Melbourne men have been picked up and are
being held under new laws. I don't know if my neighbour was amongst
them. I never met my neighbour until the day after the first raid when 
I said hello to him after the media went away. I kind of felt guilty not
knowing him at all when he'd been there so long. Another older
neighbour later told me he put him in the window as a child as a
way to get his keys when he'd locked himself out. 

Anyway obviously I don't want explosions taking place around
Melbourne and threatening the lives of people I care about and 
obviously my neighbour could be either innocent or guilty (not
really guilty - the nature of the raids is preventative and to gather
intel but guilt of speaking bad words or perhaps plotting worse)
but what really annoys me is that if I was a "terrorist" I'd probably
think the Aussies have it coming to them now just like the Brits 
and the Yanks, but most especially like the Yanks.  Don't 
democracies get the governments they deserve? 

When the rule book is torn up like the US tore it up then there
*is* no rule book anymore, there is just asymmetric warfare on
all fronts with absolutely no holds barred. All forms of violence
become  legitimate political tools to be weighted only in terms of
their effectiveness.  

I'm no terrorist to anybody Spike but it is only an accident of
location of birth that has made me not be an insurgent. And 
had your country invaded my country on a pretext and killed
my family I don't think I'd be particularly squeamish about 
upholding laws the protections of  which were denied to me
and I don't think I'd stop trying to fight you once you left my
homeland.  

I've noticed that amongst those picked up in Australia and
the UK as part of the home-grown batch there was at least
one white westerner still with a white western name.

This is another ranty post from me Spike but I can only
take this stuff a certain amount of seriously. Human barbarity
and stupidity will probably kill me indirectly if not directly
but it doesn't impress me much anymore its just too damn 
predictable. 

By nature I'm interested in stuff like politics and law and
the rational for the farcical war on terror and by circumstances
I find people around me are the subject of draconian laws
so I watch this stuff more closely that most perhaps.

I think like a "terrorist" because if my neighbour or someone really
is one I want to be ready not surprised but I also have to think
about what the government or police drop kicks might do.  

Police or skymarshalls have shot 'innocent' people in the UK
on a train and in the US. 

I feel a duty to speak up and out to a certain extent to ensure
that we don't lose the ability to be able too. 

Brett Paatsch