[extropy-chat] Are ancestor simulations immoral?

[A B]

Hi Jef,
   
  Sorry for resurrecting an old post, but I just wanted to add to my other comments.
   
  Jef wrote:
  "My point was that it is naive, but traditionally and popularly
accepted, to think that pleasure = good. This is not to deny that
they are strongly correlated, but incorrect and dangerous to think
that they are perfectly correlated."
   
  In fact, I strongly suspect that a primary source of our human morality is the ability to *imagine* the pain that a given action would cause in other beings, and to extrapolate that pain-model to ourselves and how we as individuals would "feel" if we were on the recieving end rather than the providing end. In other words, it may be unwise for us as a society to completely disengage all forms of personal human pain (Eg. "Wire-heading"). Strictly on a volunary basis though, of course. No one should be forced to experience *any* amount of pain unless they agree to it. I just don't think it would be wise at all if our future "government" is entirely composed of a bunch of "Wire-heads".  :-)  However, I think that this world already has way too much pain, and we need to take steps to substantially reduce it in all conscious beings.
   
  Best Wishes,
   
  Jeffrey Herrlich  
  
Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
  On 5/30/06, A B wrote:
> An excellent point. Speaking for myself: Sometimes I enjoy a little bit of
> sadness. I never want to loose the ability to be emotionally moved by a work
> of art, for example. I want to be able to "feel" the despair of Mozart's
> Requiem, and sadness is definitely an element of that.

Of course, one could easily argue (or simply point out) that you're
consciously seeking pleasure from these activities and emotions.

My point was that it is naive, but traditionally and popularly
accepted, to think that pleasure = good. This is not to deny that
they are strongly correlated, but incorrect and dangerous to think
that they are perfectly correlated.

> My point, the only
> point that I've been trying to make since the beginning of this thread is
> this: *I* should be the only being that can inflict pain or death on myself.
> No one and nothing else, should have that "freedom". Ever! Under any
> circumstances. And the same goes for any other conscious being, in my
> opinion.

While I appreciate the good intent you express above, from a systems
point of view I see it as somewhat incoherent and unrealistic.

I would also offer this insight: Letting go of an unrealistic ideal
may feel like a loss initially, but it opens the door for the gift of
greater understanding.

Should a parent be prohibited from "inflicting pain" on a child, for
example, the pain of being denied something dearly wanted by the
child, and for completely stupid reasons (from the child's point of
view)?

Should you be prohibited from "inflicting death" upon an armed
dangerous intruder threatening your children in your home?

What if your posessions, your freedom and your livelihood are
threatened to be taken away by a foreign government that "knows" your
way of life is evil because your don't worship the correct god? Would
you be willing to use force to defend yourself, your loved ones, your
interests?

Obviously there are countless examples showing that there is no clear
defining line in such cases. As subjective agents, the best we can do
is act to promote our values based on our internal model approximating
physical reality. Since some actions do in fact work better than
other actions. and given differing models, conflict is intrinsic to
life and a contributor to greater success at a higher level of
organization.

Lest this appear to you to be promoting anarchy, let me emphasize that
humans (and other agents) do share considerable values in common (such
as killing and pain are bad) and increasing awareness of our
increasingly shared values that work tends to lead toward increasingly
moral decision-making.

I'll be happy to continue this discussion depending on your interest.

- Jef
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