[extropy-chat] Still confused:)

[John]

> They're about beliefs...

Perhaps importantly, fear induced belief. Although let's not get all 
superior here when scientists scrabble away like rats to find answers in 
hope that they can avoid problems as well - like me, scared of death. It's 
just that the agnostic's end result isn't always a very happy one at the 
moment.

Luckily for the religious, there are agnostics like me around to suffer for 
them, just like Jesus, and develop their mobile phones for them, all the 
time suspecting that I'm just going to blink out of existence in a few 
decades.

I would stop and question at the exploration point, because I think there is 
some element of religion that does involve exploration of 'the bigger 
picture', although this is no way bound solely to religion and agnostic 
philosophy can provided something identical - assuming it is actually 
agnosticism and not Dawkin's-esque fundamentallism dressed up to look 
better. Neither do I think the majority of religious people, particularly in 
the West, actually engage in exploration of the bigger picture - actually, a 
lot probably do the opposite. But again, neither do all scientists - they 
can easily become caught up in the moment (see: nuclear bombs & all 
millitary funded research, which accounts for a truely staggering proportion 
of scientific R&D in my opinion).

> What I wonder is whether extropian goals can be achieved without
> the momentum of supporters/believers.

I don't think we'll need a revolution in backing from the public to achieve 
it. They'll just need continued spoon feeding with things like more 
efficient turbines to make them realise the potential.

A revolution would be nice, but it's probably unrealistic. It all comes back 
to the technological background point. I see the benefit of turbines because 
I understand where the power for my lightbulbs is coming from, and what it's 
doing both physically and philosophically (thermal equilibrium / the circle 
of life etc), and so I switch the light off when I walk out the room. It 
sounds simple, but until people can see the bigger picture of what that 
needlessly burning lightbulb represents, they'll carry on ignoring wind 
turbines until they match normal generation methods for feasibility.

People who have DIY wind turbines in their backyard switch their lights off 
too (and many more things), making turbines already feasible for them due to 
their low energy demands. The most effective way of converting people to a 
transhumanist mind set might be to investigate what prompted these DIY 
turbine people in the first place and then trying to guide the public on 
from there, which will probably be cost (which will be viewed as penny 
pinching unless it's a substantial difference that can offset the lifestyle 
change & effort) and an appreciation for life as a whole - although I fear 
the majority of people will see the DIY turbine people merely as hippys due 
to their unshaking belief in how they deserve the right to leave their 
lights on 24/7 regardless.

Best wishes!
John