From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 1 03:51:02 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:51:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope In-Reply-To: <200710310207.l9V27L5C006473@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <5E76AF6E-D98E-412A-AD85-BE97BDE99D23@mac.com> <200710310207.l9V27L5C006473@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1193889063_361@S1.cableone.net> At 06:40 PM 10/30/2007, you wrote: > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [ExI] abandoning hope > > > > On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > > It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy. > > > > > > Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major > > > Rome bus terminal / metro stop. > > > > > > All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank > > > cards, drivers licenses, ... > >Amara, if or when it becomes necessary to raise a posse to ride out on a >rescue Amara mission, do let us know when, where and how. I would be >interested to see what a diffuse cloud of transhumanist oriented individual >particles can accomplish if called upon to do so. I fear we weren't much >help to Keith, but perhaps we were better than nothing. You were actually *very* helpful. It's just that our numbers (and tactics) are ineffective in the face of so much social inertia. To some extent people deserve what happens because of their inattention. Keith From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 1 04:48:22 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:48:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope In-Reply-To: <1193889063_361@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711010514.lA15ErMq029667@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson ... > >... I fear we weren't much > >help to Keith, but perhaps we were better than nothing. > > You were actually *very* helpful... Thanks Keith. I have often worried that we made lotsa noise, but when the actual shooting started we scattered like roaches. > It's just that our numbers (and > tactics) are ineffective in the face of so much social inertia... Ja. The concentration of active transhumanists on this planet are a few parts per billion among the human population. I fear we have had little impact so far. I sure cannot point a finger because there are there would be at least three pointing back at myself. I have done durn little to promote transhumanism, other than to entertain my normal friends with tales of brain prosthetics and freezing my head upon my demise. > To some extent people deserve what happens because of their inattention. > > Keith The one less gloomy aspect to this is that we at least have a lot more theoretical access to information than ever before, because of the internet. The story of your struggle with Co$ went round the world thousands of times and reached millions of people. (But very little was said by the old fashioned ink on dead trees medium, including your old home town rag the Palo Alto Daily. I guess we can now start calling that medium non-blackberry newpapers.) spike From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 05:18:17 2007 From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:18:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server? In-Reply-To: <200710260054.l9Q0sFCq010051@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200710260054.l9Q0sFCq010051@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, Spike wrote: > > The sun-earth system can increase in entropy while the earth enjoys a > local > decrease in entropy. During this process the sun increases in > entropy. The > sun being large, increases entropy as it fuses hydrogen to helium. No > physical laws are violated for local low entropy regions to form within > such > a system. Creationists like to claim otherwise, but I have yet to see > them > prove it with calculations. > > spike That's a good point. I'm going to have to look up the equations to get a quantitative answer. Thanks for the response. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 1 05:46:16 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:46:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711010546.lA15kBxw000965@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin H Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropy IRC server? On 10/25/07, Spike wrote: >>The sun-earth system can increase in entropy while the earth enjoys a local decrease in entropy.??During this process the sun increases in entropy...No physical laws are violated for local low entropy regions to form within such a system... spike >That's a good point.? I'm going to have to look up the equations to get a quantitative answer.? Thanks for the response. Kevin / / Kevin, I would recommend my thermodynamics text books from college but they now have that old book smell, and will likely crumble in my hands should I attempt to open them. Bookworms have lived there long enought that genetic drift has occurred to such an extent that they may have evolved into distinct species. Fortunately there are websites that can surely instruct one on how that calculation goes. spike From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 06:25:56 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:25:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience Message-ID: "Spike" : >Ja. But the art of queuing should break down. If there are many customers >in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers. If they >haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the >customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should. Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form. The most important queue that you'll learn about are the phone queues for the governmental public services: police, customs, post offices, tax office, airport lost luggage, taxis (!), ... I'm sure that they've programmed their phone system so that you get a busy signal in the first several times. Just when you've just set the speed re-dial on your phone to keep trying, then you'll hear that same number only ring and ring and no one answers. Now multiply that for several phone numbers which lead into the same office. My workplace secretary and I lost 4 days in this process, trying to locate real people at the Milan Italian customs office, who were sitting on the box with my computer inside which I desperately needed to do my job. On another occasion, I spent two days in this procedure trying to get a status on my lost luggage which contained materials that I needed to give a talk at a conference in the next days. Real line queues for governmental offices are designed to bring you back to the same window multiple times initially, because those offices/windows are only open two or three hours a day. It's not over yet though, because usually there is a second or third office that you need to visit next, also open two or three hours a day, or not at all for some period, because the one clerk that knows that job is on holiday. Another interesting queue can be seen at the Rome Termini train station. There are 30 TV monitors scattered throughout the train station, all showing simultaneously the same perfume advertisement, but only 3 large displays for giving train timetable information. So in order to know on which track your train leaves, you're in the center of the station in front of one of those large displays. However, some trains, such as the unimportant Rome Fiumicino airport train, leave from tracks that are at least 400 meters away from the display which gives the timetable information. Moreover, the timetable information for the track number is often given only 5 to 10 minutes before the train leaves. Here we see the classic Italian phenomena: "Wait and Hurry Up". The Fiumicino train is not the only artful queue in the vicinity of Rome Fiumicino airport, the luggage coming off of the planes in the baggage area is another fine example. You can usually find on which carousel your luggage will appear, but if there are more planes than the eight rows on the TV monitor, then it's off the display. The time you'll need to wait is about 40 minutes anyway, so you might as well hang around that little TV screen and wait until your desired row on the TV finally appears. Then when you've arrived at the carousel to wait for your luggage, your luggage is actually emerging on a different carousel. Before we leave the airport, one last queue I should mention is the one that develops when the computers that are used to tag luggage with their airport routing information go down. The solution from the counter personnel is to handwrite the routing information on sticky white pieces of paper. You can now guess at the result. The result is that everyone on this flight during the time that the computers went down did not receive their luggage at their final destination. Next, let's go to the post office. Post offices in Italy are not usually used to mail things, they are used instead to pay one's bills. So there are several (hopefully) open windows with clerks ready to take your money for your electricity bill, and always just one window available to mail your letters. I suppose that the some (or many) of some (or many) Italians' innate drive to pile up at the front of a queue prompted some persons to initiate a new queuing system a few years ago, however I'm not sure that post offices are the appropriate place where such systems are needed. I think that such training could be better used at car traffic lights, where the front of the line of cars waiting to turn left always contains two or more cars gunning their engine to make the break across the intersection when the light changes, even if that lane can fit only one-half of a car. The post office queuing system begins when you punch a button at a wobbly lime-green machine near the front of the office to receive a number. Then the customer waits and looks at an LED display in the corner of the post office which list window numbers and queuing ticket numbers to guide you to the proper window in an orderly fashion. However, the time at the post office remains the same because the same queue is only rearranged, not shortened in any way, which is one way to experience the old adage: "Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi" (everything must change so that nothing will truly change) And sometimes the post office clerks are new or in a particularly perky mood that day. He might sit there pushing the button increasing the queuing number for the window, but it has no correspondence with any customer or window. He's just having a bit of fun, you see, and why wouldn't you? Being a postal clerk is a boring job. Your queuing experience doesn't end there, though. When you arrive at the window to pick up your package, then you can bet that they will not be able to find your package and you will need to return to the post office one or two more times. Now while the above queues are frustrating and cold-hearted, the queue at one's local medico office is designed to bring out the best of Italy's warm and cozy culture. There are no electronic queuing systems. Instead when you enter a waiting room, the first thing you must ask is 'ultima persona?'. Once you know who is the last person in the queue of people in that waiting room, then your task for the next hour is simply to be fixated on that person; when he/she sees the doctor, then you know that you are next. You see in this way, you immediately make a friend in the waiting room, and more likely, you will have more attention to give to the other people in the room, as well. So usually everyone in the room are almost like family by the end of the hour. So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened now. Ciao, Amara From sentience at pobox.com Thu Nov 1 07:08:05 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:08:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47297B55.3000006@pobox.com> Amara Graps wrote: > > So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways > that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened > now. Note to self: Never visit Italy. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 08:32:43 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:32:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience Message-ID: Eliezer, Italy has a large percentage of the world's art.. For ex. If any of those sculptures on a random street corner in Rome were moved to the US, then the US local art curators would put glass around it and charge you an arm and a leg to see it. In Italy, such art that is all over the cities is free to see and for everybody. It will be rare to experience such a phenomenon anyplace else, and it is an absolutely gorgeous place to visit. When I decided to move to Italy, it was not only because I fell in love with Serafino, it was because I thought that Italy was so beautiful and so interesting. So I do suggest if you have an opportunity, to go. IF you have time, because time _does_ run differently in a cultural sense. Most of what I listed is what people who live in Italy must experience in daily life with the government bureaucracies. Not visitors; with the exception of the airport and public transportation (that's not easy either). I think that Rome Fiumicino generally is an awful airport, but that is partly slanted to my necessarily heavy use.. I don't care how they might change its appearance (which occasionally happens); I need it to function properly because all of my scientific colleagues are located outside of Italy. In the last 3-4 years I've been traveling for 1/3 of every month, which means that I've seen and experienced everything possible that can and does go wrong there. Italy's overall transportation system is not generally designed for ease of use and comfort for the passenger, so that's the main point that the visitor needs to be aware about. Amara From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 09:35:29 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:35:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope Message-ID: Spike: >Such an exciting and challenging road thru life you have chosen, ja? I'm a magnet: When I entered this country with a heart full of love and good intentions, it began five years of everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Now I'm five years older. genes dead, all of my savings for buying property gone, but I succeeded to save my science, somehow, because I could do nothing else in that comedy-tragedy. I would have preferred much more to have been able to save the other things, though. But if I left in the first year, not trusting anybody and without trying, I wouldn't have been me, right? The large theft of my identity at the end was a kind of Italian toast to Amara, there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune now. Amara From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 11:11:17 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:11:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope Message-ID: giovanni santost : >Any time I meet Italian scientists at a conference I'm saddened by >their tales of all sorts of problems they encouter in their life in >the Italian scientific world and in particular how little they are >paid. The money reflects the value that the culture places on science though. The problem is much bigger than their salaries. >And still, Italy manages to be a leader in many fields of science >and technology... Italian scientists are very resourceful out of necessity. >Maybe the family network compensates so well for the problems you >talked about that Italians in the end are extremely attached to >their country and it is difficult for them to leave. If, or when, the family network is no longer able to subsidize (heavily, like now) the scientists, then Italian science will die. >I would say the quality of life is superior in many ways in Italy. If you've been away for while, then maybe you've not experienced the large time spent in daily life trying to have 'normal' services. Nevertheless, with the family support so that their financial expenses are manageable, my colleagues have a fair bit of free time to enjoy their lives. >It can be interesting to reflect on how Italy went from a center of >knowledge and innovation during the Renaissance to a much more >stagnant and peripheral place today. Maybe there are important >lessons there, in particular from the point of view of >transhumanism. Renaissance had a lot of point in common with the >vision of the world of transhumanism. >What went wrong? Whatever it was, it was a complete break from the past. There doesn't seem to be any link from the time of da Vinci and Galileo to now in the culture for the value of science and technology. They lost it all. The Italian public today views the scientists by-and-large as wastes of resources and money. That's worse than the low salary, I think. >Most of my knowledge of what is going in Italy right now comes from >talking to my family and the news on the web. Almost every day there >are several news that talk about people from Romania, Albania and so >on being arrested for some horrible crime. Maybe the media are >guilty of some discrimination, but up to a point. I noticed differences with what the media reports here, and what I saw and experienced in my weeks of queues at the Questura. Beppe Grillo might provide another useful source of information for you. He has his own slant, but there's usually a grain of truth to what he says. Amara From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 12:15:03 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:15:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope Message-ID: giovanni santost : >And still, Italy manages to be a leader in many fields of science >and technology... The World Economic Forum has a report: "The Global Competitiveness Report" that it presents every year: Go here: http://www.gcr.weforum.org/ Choose "Explore the Report", and then select Italy. Further descriptions are found in "Country performance", "Problematic Factors" and "Balance Sheet". This year Italy dropped another few points to 46 out of 130 (the last year it was 42). Italy's competitiveness factors have shown a steady decline for some years. Amara From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 1 14:18:01 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:18:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps > > ... there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune > now... Amara Ja, well we are not. We are not immune to worry about you. We get the same kinds of worries as when Keith was falsely imprisoned; worries that won't go away until we know you are well and safe. spike From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 1 15:36:14 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:36:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope Message-ID: Spike: >Amara, if or when it becomes necessary to raise a posse to ride out on a >rescue Amara mission, do let us know when, where and how. I need Italian practical help because time is slipping away from me like a sieve. Yesterday evening, I spent my time at the websites of Telecom Italia (www.187.it) -fixed line, and Tele2 (www.tele2.it) -regular phone, trying to learn how to cancel their services. There is nothing for 'disdetta del sevizio'. There are phone numbers that plug you into their help system, but only if you call from the phone (my home) for which their service is provided. If you do that, though, you get lost in an endless phone menu system, nothing about 'disdetta del sevizio' that I can catch. My friends tried from their homes and offices, but it doesn't work because they must use my home phone. I have written formal letters (in my best Italian) giving my notice for my departure, with contact addresses for their last bill and my identification and customer numbers, which I'll send by registered postal mail tomorrow (today is a holiday) to a general 'clienti servizio' address. But Telecom Italia is famous for all parts of their company not speaking to each other (and you know they tend to give fax numbers to their customers that don't work), and where do I physically send the Tele2 modem from their past DSL service that didn't work? There doesn't exist any physical Tele2 service centers in Italy, as far as I can tell. (If someone can find for me an address of a physical Tele2 office in Italy, that would help me alot.) Amara From scerir at libero.it Thu Nov 1 16:42:09 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:42:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope References: Message-ID: <003a01c81ca6$26b89900$67b81f97@archimede> > where do I physically send the Tele2 > modem from their past DSL service > that didn't work? There doesn't exist > any physical Tele2 service centers in Italy, write down an email to this address here below IT-ADSLsupport at tele2.com saying (specifically about the modem) .... Spett. Tele2 Italia S.p.A. Casella Postale 1022 88046 San Pietro Lametino (CZ) Si prega prendere nota che ho dato, in data odierna, a mezzo lettera raccomandata, formale disdetta dal contratto in essere (here details about your specific contratto, phone number, voice, adsl, whatever). Dovendo lasciare, a breve, la mia attuale residenza in Italia, per trasferirmi all'estero, si prega di comunicarmi, via email, con la maggior sollecitudine possibile, il luogo - il pi? vicino al mio presente domicilio - dove io possa riconsegnare l'apparecchio modem DSL a suo tempo noleggiatomi da Tele2. Signature ............. present address in Frascati future address in US email ......... From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 16:45:02 2007 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:45:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nano radio! Message-ID: <9b9887c80711010945l688d2838j247a446289451460@mail.gmail.com> This is amazing. What next? More stations, I guess. Make way for the real "nanopod" and make room in the *Guinness Book of World Records*. A team of researchers at Berkeley Lab and UC Berkeley has created the first fully functional radio from a single carbon nanotube, which makes it by several orders of magnitude the smallest radio ever made. "A single carbon nanotube molecule serves simultaneously as all essential components of a radio ? antenna, tunable band-pass filter, amplifier, and demodulator," said physicist *Alex Zettl*, who led the research. "Using carrier waves in the commercially relevant 40-400 MHz range and both frequency and amplitude modulation (FM and AM), we were able to demonstrate successful music and voice reception." Go to http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-nanoradio.html to read the full story, which includes video of sound (Star Wars theme) recorded on the nanotube radio. -- Ilsa Bartlett Institute for Rewiring the System 1222 "B" Ashby Avenue Berkeley, CA 94702 510.848.1007 www.hotlux.com/angel.htm "Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person." -John Coltrane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 17:20:44 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amara, maybe the burocracy is particular stupid in Italy. But it is not much better in USA for example. I can report equally horrible tales of my visits of the INS office in New Orleans. Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is usually a hellish place. At least in Italy, as you said, the general mood among the people in queue is much warmer and friendly. Howerver, there is not excuse for stupidity anywhere.... Amara Graps wrote: "Spike" : >Ja. But the art of queuing should break down. If there are many customers >in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers. If they >haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the >customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should. Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form. The most important queue that you'll learn about are the phone queues for the governmental public services: police, customs, post offices, tax office, airport lost luggage, taxis (!), ... I'm sure that they've programmed their phone system so that you get a busy signal in the first several times. Just when you've just set the speed re-dial on your phone to keep trying, then you'll hear that same number only ring and ring and no one answers. Now multiply that for several phone numbers which lead into the same office. My workplace secretary and I lost 4 days in this process, trying to locate real people at the Milan Italian customs office, who were sitting on the box with my computer inside which I desperately needed to do my job. On another occasion, I spent two days in this procedure trying to get a status on my lost luggage which contained materials that I needed to give a talk at a conference in the next days. Real line queues for governmental offices are designed to bring you back to the same window multiple times initially, because those offices/windows are only open two or three hours a day. It's not over yet though, because usually there is a second or third office that you need to visit next, also open two or three hours a day, or not at all for some period, because the one clerk that knows that job is on holiday. Another interesting queue can be seen at the Rome Termini train station. There are 30 TV monitors scattered throughout the train station, all showing simultaneously the same perfume advertisement, but only 3 large displays for giving train timetable information. So in order to know on which track your train leaves, you're in the center of the station in front of one of those large displays. However, some trains, such as the unimportant Rome Fiumicino airport train, leave from tracks that are at least 400 meters away from the display which gives the timetable information. Moreover, the timetable information for the track number is often given only 5 to 10 minutes before the train leaves. Here we see the classic Italian phenomena: "Wait and Hurry Up". The Fiumicino train is not the only artful queue in the vicinity of Rome Fiumicino airport, the luggage coming off of the planes in the baggage area is another fine example. You can usually find on which carousel your luggage will appear, but if there are more planes than the eight rows on the TV monitor, then it's off the display. The time you'll need to wait is about 40 minutes anyway, so you might as well hang around that little TV screen and wait until your desired row on the TV finally appears. Then when you've arrived at the carousel to wait for your luggage, your luggage is actually emerging on a different carousel. Before we leave the airport, one last queue I should mention is the one that develops when the computers that are used to tag luggage with their airport routing information go down. The solution from the counter personnel is to handwrite the routing information on sticky white pieces of paper. You can now guess at the result. The result is that everyone on this flight during the time that the computers went down did not receive their luggage at their final destination. Next, let's go to the post office. Post offices in Italy are not usually used to mail things, they are used instead to pay one's bills. So there are several (hopefully) open windows with clerks ready to take your money for your electricity bill, and always just one window available to mail your letters. I suppose that the some (or many) of some (or many) Italians' innate drive to pile up at the front of a queue prompted some persons to initiate a new queuing system a few years ago, however I'm not sure that post offices are the appropriate place where such systems are needed. I think that such training could be better used at car traffic lights, where the front of the line of cars waiting to turn left always contains two or more cars gunning their engine to make the break across the intersection when the light changes, even if that lane can fit only one-half of a car. The post office queuing system begins when you punch a button at a wobbly lime-green machine near the front of the office to receive a number. Then the customer waits and looks at an LED display in the corner of the post office which list window numbers and queuing ticket numbers to guide you to the proper window in an orderly fashion. However, the time at the post office remains the same because the same queue is only rearranged, not shortened in any way, which is one way to experience the old adage: "Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi" (everything must change so that nothing will truly change) And sometimes the post office clerks are new or in a particularly perky mood that day. He might sit there pushing the button increasing the queuing number for the window, but it has no correspondence with any customer or window. He's just having a bit of fun, you see, and why wouldn't you? Being a postal clerk is a boring job. Your queuing experience doesn't end there, though. When you arrive at the window to pick up your package, then you can bet that they will not be able to find your package and you will need to return to the post office one or two more times. Now while the above queues are frustrating and cold-hearted, the queue at one's local medico office is designed to bring out the best of Italy's warm and cozy culture. There are no electronic queuing systems. Instead when you enter a waiting room, the first thing you must ask is 'ultima persona?'. Once you know who is the last person in the queue of people in that waiting room, then your task for the next hour is simply to be fixated on that person; when he/she sees the doctor, then you know that you are next. You see in this way, you immediately make a friend in the waiting room, and more likely, you will have more attention to give to the other people in the room, as well. So usually everyone in the room are almost like family by the end of the hour. So here I've given you just a small sample of the many creative ways that queuing works in Italy. I hope that you're suitably enlightened now. Ciao, Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 17:53:31 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <645755.51809.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amara, I'm not sure how good is your Italian, but if you need help with Italian translations of documents or letter, let me know.... Amara Graps wrote: Spike: >Such an exciting and challenging road thru life you have chosen, ja? I'm a magnet: When I entered this country with a heart full of love and good intentions, it began five years of everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Now I'm five years older. genes dead, all of my savings for buying property gone, but I succeeded to save my science, somehow, because I could do nothing else in that comedy-tragedy. I would have preferred much more to have been able to save the other things, though. But if I left in the first year, not trusting anybody and without trying, I wouldn't have been me, right? The large theft of my identity at the end was a kind of Italian toast to Amara, there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune now. Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 17:40:14 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <741229.4611.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amara is very right here. Somebody estimated that about 30 percent of all the art in the world is in Italy. And the landscape, the culture, the people, the food are just amazing....... So Eliezer, you will be a very incomplete human or transhuman if you are not visiting Italy soon or later.... and all the silly problems are tractable with patience and a philosophical approach... the thing that I most agree with Amara is that researchers in Italy are paid nothing, and they don't get much support from their government. That is enough to justify leaving if you work in science. Everything else is more than compensated by the beauty of the place and the depth of the people. When I go to Italy and meet my friends, for example, very quickly we go in amazing conversations, they have questions about US, the people, the places, they listen, they ask relevant questions. When I tell people in the US that I'm Italian, they don't really care, and at most they make some silly remarks about red sauce or white sauce, mafia or things like that. They barely know where Italy is, even if somebody once asked me if Italy was in Europe. The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York Times. The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art, science, culture that people actually read. Even if goverment doesn't use properly its resources to support science, the people have reverence for knowledge and culture in general. The main problem is corruption and how resources are used. Italy is one of the strongest economies in the world and somehow the money is channelled in the wrong direction. There are a lot of positive forces though and hopefully change will come soon. Singularity will change everything, everywhere, anywhere right? Amara Graps wrote: Eliezer, Italy has a large percentage of the world's art.. For ex. If any of those sculptures on a random street corner in Rome were moved to the US, then the US local art curators would put glass around it and charge you an arm and a leg to see it. In Italy, such art that is all over the cities is free to see and for everybody. It will be rare to experience such a phenomenon anyplace else, and it is an absolutely gorgeous place to visit. When I decided to move to Italy, it was not only because I fell in love with Serafino, it was because I thought that Italy was so beautiful and so interesting. So I do suggest if you have an opportunity, to go. IF you have time, because time _does_ run differently in a cultural sense. Most of what I listed is what people who live in Italy must experience in daily life with the government bureaucracies. Not visitors; with the exception of the airport and public transportation (that's not easy either). I think that Rome Fiumicino generally is an awful airport, but that is partly slanted to my necessarily heavy use.. I don't care how they might change its appearance (which occasionally happens); I need it to function properly because all of my scientific colleagues are located outside of Italy. In the last 3-4 years I've been traveling for 1/3 of every month, which means that I've seen and experienced everything possible that can and does go wrong there. Italy's overall transportation system is not generally designed for ease of use and comfort for the passenger, so that's the main point that the visitor needs to be aware about. Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 1 18:51:31 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:51:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the DMV experience In-Reply-To: <599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <599383.86496.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071101134911.022c22b8@satx.rr.com> At 10:20 AM 11/1/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote: > >Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is >usually a hellish place. In the mildly amusing new TV show REAPER, this is *literally* the case. DMV offices are portals to Hell, with Satanic staff. Damien Broderick From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Thu Nov 1 19:07:28 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:07:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the DMV experience Message-ID: <380-22007114119728349@M2W012.mail2web.com> At 10:20 AM 11/1/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote: >Also the Department of Motor Vehicle office in every US city is >usually a hellish place. The only DMV office that I have experienced that has been pleasant, receptive and informative is in downtown Austin. I think this must be why Austin is weird and the slogan "Keep Austin Weird" has real meaning. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 1 21:02:06 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:02:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope In-Reply-To: <200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711011444.lA1Eiadj016750@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1193950879_22347@S4.cableone.net> At 07:18 AM 11/1/2007, you wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps > > > > ... there is nothing more that the country can do to me; I'm immune > > now... Amara > >Ja, well we are not. We are not immune to worry about you. We get the same >kinds of worries as when Keith was falsely imprisoned; worries that won't go >away until we know you are well and safe. There is no such condition this side of the singularity, and probably not the other side either. Keith From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 2 04:19:44 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:19:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandoning translations In-Reply-To: <003a01c81ca6$26b89900$67b81f97@archimede> Message-ID: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir ... > write down an email to this address here below... I took my baby to the doctor last night at Stanford. He is better now thanks (the baby I mean, not the doctor). In the waiting room there was a poster that offered free translator services. It was written in twenty languages, eight of which were European languages. I noticed that of those eight, Italian was the one that was easiest for English-only speakers to understand. Perhaps it is because English uses a number of Latin-based words. For instance, one can almost get the drift of Italian, by looking at the apparent common Latin base, and thus roughly translate. Using my method on scerir's passage, for instance, yields the following: > Si prega prendere nota che ho dato, Yes, the noted Communist revolutionary Guevara was dating a harlot who was pretending to be pregnant... > in data odierna, a mezzo lettera raccomandata, ...the data stinks, but a mess of letters recommend that... > formale disdetta dal contratto in essere ...the formerly male person who is opposed to rats was insincere. > Dovendo lasciare, a breve, la mia attuale residenza in Italia... The lascivious dove was short, but the actress Farrow actually resides in Italy... > per trasferirmi all'estero, si prega di comunicarmi via email... ...She transferred all her female hormones, yes, and she communicates her Karma (plural) thru email... > con la maggior sollecitudine possibile, ...with the finest possible selection of fly larvae. > il luogo - il pi? vicino al mio presente domicilio - ...she was sick, very sick in the vicinity of my present house! (ewwww) > dove io possa riconsegnare l'apparecchio modem DSL a suo tempo ...Jupiter's volcanic satellite has modems with fast DSL... > noleggiatomi da Tele2. ...but I have no legs with which to escape the atomic weapons, so I watch the Teletubbies on channel 2. So you see, this isn't a literal translation of course, but with my paraphrase you get the general drift of the passage. All this I can do, without actually studying Italian for a single day, not a minute! It is unclear why scerir would suggest sending this particular message to the Italian bureaucrats, but he knows them better than I do. Perhaps it is some kind of code the insiders use to get things done quickly. In any case, I should apply for a job at the Italian embassy as a translator. Nations would get along so much better if they use my system for paraphrasing diplomatic messages. spike ' ' {8^] ' ' From scerir at libero.it Fri Nov 2 07:15:18 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:15:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning translations References: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede> Spike: So you see, this isn't a literal translation of course, but with my paraphrase you get the general drift of the passage. # :-) It is unclear why scerir would suggest sending this particular message to the Italian bureaucrats, but he knows them better than I do. Perhaps it is some kind of code the insiders use to get things done quickly. # Some kind of code, exactly. But the problem now is: what kind of code do they use in their response? In general they like to use nonsense, as a code. We'll see (but not so soon, I suppose). From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 12:06:00 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:06:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20711020506m2d1e9d83jcd1a4fa9f8b76203@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/07, Amara Graps wrote: > Oh ye of little imagination, Spike! Queuing is much more than waiting in > the lines in the bank or at the supermarket. Italy's present > infrastructure has raised the queuing experience to a superb art form. Come on. Amara, you should know better. Italian queues are just a tactful way to test your connectedness and creativity and slyness and Darwinian reflexes, so that due priority can be accorded to people exhibiting those traits. No self-respecting Italian would accept to wait in a queue unless and until all reasonable and unreasonable avoidance measures have been exhausted. :-) As far as Telecom is concerned, there again I am surprised that you have not even taken into consideration the obvious option, that is simply... disappearing. It is their problem, not yours, if terminating contracts is made too complicate for people to bother. Stefano Vaj From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 2 13:00:22 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 06:00:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Translating with abandon In-Reply-To: <000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede> References: <200711020419.lA24Jrlb006684@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <000a01c81d20$205d6610$2fba1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <1194008376_15451@S3.cableone.net> You might be amused: "He also embattled metal chlorate and attempted to ingest it in the concoct of explosive as a unreal for saltpetre." Keith From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 2 14:34:07 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:34:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope - the queuing experience Message-ID: Stefano Vaj stefano.vaj at gmail.com : >Italian queues are just a tactful way to test your connectedness and >creativity and slyness and Darwinian reflexes, so that due priority >can be accorded to people exhibiting those traits. No self-respecting >Italian would accept to wait in a queue unless and until all >reasonable and unreasonable avoidance measures have been exhausted. >:-) This is one of those Latin versus Anglo things... And obviously my connectedness to my Italian Social Network is is not as deep and as widespread as a native-born Italian (if you could have manufactured a pill that would allow me to be awake during my sleeping hours between 2am and 7am to have time for this task) because my Italian Working Network became very expensive (i.e.. more than my salary allowed) and I needed to cultivate my connectedness to my NONItalian Network to have _some_ resources to pay my rent and to save my science. Capisci? A repost... ------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:55:36 +0200 From: Amara Graps Subject: [wta-talk] Apple drives posthuman evolution To: wta-talk at transhumanism.org Message-ID: Anders: >British Gas and the proud traditions of British plumbing is driving my >posthuman evolution towards arctic adaptation. No hot water for a month >at home. I'd love to have a control for my skin sensitivity so I could >turn off the cold receptors while showering. Ideally, we should have a >spinal "firewall" that allows us to temporarily filter out pain or other >irritating stimuli (for safety, it could both have a timer and never >work 100%). In the meantime I'm training my willpower instead. I _love_ visiting my friends (and hotel rooms) because they have bathrooms that work... ! And they have nonSORBS-blacklisted Internet. And telephones that don't ring three times throughout the day and night and then stop. And a gas company that doesn't send them threatening letters demanding payment for six years before they moved in. And Postal Mail that not only _arrives_, but arrives _regularly_. Oh Anders, I have hot water, and you're welcome to use it. But you'll need to exercise your posthuman dexterity and ingenuity to balance the broken shower head that my landlord doesn't wish to fix. Dear Universe, I thank you for Telecom Italia, Italgas, Fastweb, the Questura, my landlords, and the post office clerks who are driving my posthuman sensitivities, service department communication skills, bank account, and above all, my _patience_ to be a much stronger posthuman to build our Bright and Wonderful Future. :-) Ciao, Amara ------------------------------------------------------------- From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 2 16:22:04 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:22:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Story "Tunnel of Love" Message-ID: <1194020478_23118@S3.cableone.net> To my surprise, this story posted. >http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 Keith From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 2 15:38:11 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:38:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends Message-ID: <200711021538.lA2FcE4v014033@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com> This is an endearing story about Washoe who, like Coco, could communicate with sign language. (Also a small but interesting comment about Chomsky's and Pinker's views on sign language.) http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/31/signing.chimp.dies.ap/index.html Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 2 15:52:47 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 10:52:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence Required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711021552.lA2Fqnet007416@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com> At 11:12 PM 10/29/2007, Andr?s >First I would like to better understand what >Collective Intelligence is. How does it emerge >in biology, sociology, computer science, business and mass behavior? This is a great project and I look forward to hearing about what you do with it. It is not my field but if it were my research project, I would find as much information on this topic as possible (googling is easy), and create a bibliography of references. Skim through the material, jot down notes on what relates to you questions. Then come up with a few new more target questions that shows that you have some knowledge of the area. That will help anyone responding to better address your concerns/questions/etc. >And second and most important: How can it be harnessed? >I would like to see examples on how it can be >harnessed. From bacterial colonies, web-services >and human computation, I would like for you to >share any resources, blogs, websites, books, >fiction or not, arts, anything you can remember or find. Okay, will do in the immersive arts, etc. Natasha From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Nov 1 19:21:53 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 11:21:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends References: <200711021538.lA2FcE4v014033@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com> Message-ID: <006e01c81cbc$776f6e80$0300a8c0@Nano> Aww, I just saw her in May. When I was a kid we always heard about her because there were people in Reno who had worked with her when she used to reside in the area many years before (before my time). When I visited the "Chimposium" here in WA I bought a painting that Washoe made. She did seem aged and a bit more to herself than the other chimps. Thanks for informing the list. I'm off today to catch a plane and go down to the nanotech "Unconference"! If any of you are attending, we'll see you soon! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Natasha Vita-More To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: [ExI] Washoe's life ends This is an endearing story about Washoe who, like Coco, could communicate with sign language. (Also a small but interesting comment about Chomsky's and Pinker's views on sign language.) http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/31/signing.chimp.dies.ap/index.html Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 2 21:29:16 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 22:29:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) Message-ID: Replying to: giovanni santost Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Caveat: I'm passionate about books and reading. My second and third teenage jobs were working in bookstores. In my 20s and 30s, until I moved to Europe in 1998, I spent a few hours per week browsing in bookstores. My personal ~1100 volume library fills half of an international shipping container. Therefore I am sensitive to the reading habits of the people in the places (and countries) where I have spent time and lived. In a country as large as the US, you should know that there are strong regional differences, and within those regions, more variations as well. For example, the San Francisco Bay area, (my home for 14 years) has a high density of readers and book stores, and within that area, Berkeley probably has near the highest density of bookstores in the world. These types of pockets of readers might look unusual compared to the rest of the U.S. Also, we both know that education and high reading habits are correlated. Generally, the US is not a country of readers. While Italy, generally, has more readers (normalized to the population) than the US, Italy is not a country of readers compared to most of the other EU countries. Italy's reading habits are more similar to Poland, Serbia, Slovakia, Croatia. SOME STATISTICS --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3613 In the U.S. Percentage polled who read 1 to 5 books in the last year: 30% 6 to 15 books: 23% More than 15 books: 20% --------------------------------------------------------- MEASURE OF READING HABITS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA In the following UNESCO data, Book Production http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch11/11.12.xls I added a column of the population between the ages of 25 and 64 from: Population data http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch1/1.1.xls and divided the book production by the number of people who are likely to be reading. No illiteracy rates have been factored in. This number represents a rough measure of the reading habits of readers in that country, reading material published in their own language. Some day in the future I would like to further distinguish the reading material in terms of social sciences, pure and applied sciences, and literature and arts. And I didn't finish filling in (population values) for the Commonwealth of Independent States. Iceland is high because they are not only prolific book publishers and readers, but their population is also tiny. The last column is my Rough Measure Of 'Reading Habits' in that Country. #published book titles Pop(25-64) #Bks/Pop (*1E3) (25-64) MEASURE European Union: Austria a 8 056 4 559 976 0.00177 1.76668 Denmark 14 455 2 950 310 0.00490 4.89948 Finland 13 173 2 874 152 0.00458 4.58326 France 39 083 30 779 424 0.00127 1.26978 Germany a 71 515 46 445 344 0.00154 1.53977 Greece b 4 067 5 637 830 0.00072 0.72138 Italy 32 365 32 392 640 0.00100 0.99915 <-- Portugal b 8 331 5 499 773 0.00151 1.51479 Spain 59 174 21 984 963 0.00269 2.69157 Sweden c 12 547 4 705 984 0.00267 2.66618 United Kingdom c 110 965 31 849 788 0.00348 3.48401 Other Western Europe: Cyprus 931 288 507 0.00323 3.22696 Iceland c 1 796 143 120 0.01255 12.54889 Malta c 237 208 842 0.00113 1.13483 Monaco d 70 19 200 0.00365 3.64583 Norway 4 985 2 392 314 0.00208 2.08376 Switzerland 18 273 4 035 791 0.00453 4.52774 Turkey 2 920 31 101 612 0.00009 0.09389 Central and Eastern Europe: Bulgaria 4 971 4 293 864 0.00116 1.15770 Croatia 2 309 2 365 188 0.00098 0.97624 Czech Republic 12 551 5 503 813 0.00228 2.28042 Estonia 3 265 714 788 0.00457 4.56779 Hungary 10 352 5 501 250 0.00188 1.88175 Latvia 2 178 1 248 150 0.00174 1.74498 Lithuania 4 097 1 811 934 0.00226 2.26112 Poland 19 192 20 131 961 0.00095 0.95331 Romania 7 874 11 809 227 0.00067 0.66677 Serbia and Monta 5 367 5 485 626 0.00098 0.97838 Slovakia 3 153 2 814 102 0.00112 1.12043 Slovenia 3 450 1 111 536 0.00310 3.10381 The former Yugosl 733 1 039 543 0.00071 0.70512 Commonwealth of Independent States: Armenia 516 Azerbaijan c 444 Belarus c 6 073 Georgia 697 Kazakhstan 1 223 Kyrgyzstan c 420 Republic of Moldo 1 166 Russian Federata 36 237 Tajikistan b 150 Ukraine 6 282 Uzbekistan a 1 003 North America: Canada 22 94117 126 127 0.00134 1.33953 United States a 68 175149 233 57 0.00046 0.45683 <-- Other member countries: Israel c 1 969 2792404.8 0.00071 0.70513 a/ Data for 1996 c/ Data for 1998 b/ Data for 1997 d/ Data for 2000 --------------------------------------------------------- >The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York >Times. I don't agree. And how often does the average Italian reader read the whole average Italian newspaper? From all of my time spent on trains and buses and in public places, I've observed the average reader is reading mostly the sports section. >The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art, >science, culture that people actually read. Science? Did I miss more than le Scienze? I hope that that I did. le Scienze is a small extraction (mostly) of Scientific American with a too large proportion of advertisements (lately, it seems like half). The statistics in my tables above is reading material published in the country's own language. I don't have statistics to give for reading material published in other languages, but I can comment, with my personal experience (anecdotes). A train or airport periodical (magazine) shop in a random place in Italy contains an order of magnitude less material in volume, range of subjects and languages than a random periodical shop in Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands (which is oddly not in UNESCO's database),... I always have a sense that I don't have any oxygen when I'm in an Italian magazine stand, while I feel quite at home in a Switzerland magazine stand. But then, remember, I'm skewed. --------------------------------------------------------- OTHER USEFUL STATISTICS Trends in Europe and North America Researchers per Inhabitants http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.11.xls Total Expenditure on Education as a % of GDP http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.9.xls Expenditure on Research and Development, % of GDP http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.12.xls (I've seen more recent stats somewhere, Italy is below 1.0 now, Spain surpassed Italy a few years ago) Ciao, Amara From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 22:15:02 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Amara, while I really appreciate the statistics you are showing us, I'm kind of skeptical about such measures as I was after reading the ones you gave for economics. For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems impossible that several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" than Italy. What is really meant with that? Their measures are just a way to rationalize something that is quite complicated (as any social phenomenon) to quantify. The size of the economy is considered in the analysis as I understand it but I think it doesn't have the right weight. I'm not an economist but the list seems quite non-sensical to me. How is possible that Switzerland is at the second place? With an rating almost as good as US? It seems that the Economic Forum uses "opinions" of businessmen to assess the measures, not very scientific way to do things. About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately notices how uneducated people in general are. Now, I know this is a generalization, but it is a pretty valid one. I know there are exceptional minds and intellectual in this country, but in general even well educated people are educated in a very narrow field and they are pretty unaware of everything else, from history to geography, from literature to art. The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely well rounded. You can talk about politics with them, you can discuss current events in the light of history and past events, they mention philosophers and thinkers from ancient Greece and ninenteen century Germany when they want to make a point, and so on. I miss that... And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read that book. How likely is that to happen in the US (not many buses here anyway...)? Amara Graps wrote: Replying to: giovanni santost Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Caveat: I'm passionate about books and reading. My second and third teenage jobs were working in bookstores. In my 20s and 30s, until I moved to Europe in 1998, I spent a few hours per week browsing in bookstores. My personal ~1100 volume library fills half of an international shipping container. Therefore I am sensitive to the reading habits of the people in the places (and countries) where I have spent time and lived. In a country as large as the US, you should know that there are strong regional differences, and within those regions, more variations as well. For example, the San Francisco Bay area, (my home for 14 years) has a high density of readers and book stores, and within that area, Berkeley probably has near the highest density of bookstores in the world. These types of pockets of readers might look unusual compared to the rest of the U.S. Also, we both know that education and high reading habits are correlated. Generally, the US is not a country of readers. While Italy, generally, has more readers (normalized to the population) than the US, Italy is not a country of readers compared to most of the other EU countries. Italy's reading habits are more similar to Poland, Serbia, Slovakia, Croatia. SOME STATISTICS --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3613 In the U.S. Percentage polled who read 1 to 5 books in the last year: 30% 6 to 15 books: 23% More than 15 books: 20% --------------------------------------------------------- MEASURE OF READING HABITS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA In the following UNESCO data, Book Production http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch11/11.12.xls I added a column of the population between the ages of 25 and 64 from: Population data http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch1/1.1.xls and divided the book production by the number of people who are likely to be reading. No illiteracy rates have been factored in. This number represents a rough measure of the reading habits of readers in that country, reading material published in their own language. Some day in the future I would like to further distinguish the reading material in terms of social sciences, pure and applied sciences, and literature and arts. And I didn't finish filling in (population values) for the Commonwealth of Independent States. Iceland is high because they are not only prolific book publishers and readers, but their population is also tiny. The last column is my Rough Measure Of 'Reading Habits' in that Country. #published book titles Pop(25-64) #Bks/Pop (*1E3) (25-64) MEASURE European Union: Austria a 8 056 4 559 976 0.00177 1.76668 Denmark 14 455 2 950 310 0.00490 4.89948 Finland 13 173 2 874 152 0.00458 4.58326 France 39 083 30 779 424 0.00127 1.26978 Germany a 71 515 46 445 344 0.00154 1.53977 Greece b 4 067 5 637 830 0.00072 0.72138 Italy 32 365 32 392 640 0.00100 0.99915 <-- Portugal b 8 331 5 499 773 0.00151 1.51479 Spain 59 174 21 984 963 0.00269 2.69157 Sweden c 12 547 4 705 984 0.00267 2.66618 United Kingdom c 110 965 31 849 788 0.00348 3.48401 Other Western Europe: Cyprus 931 288 507 0.00323 3.22696 Iceland c 1 796 143 120 0.01255 12.54889 Malta c 237 208 842 0.00113 1.13483 Monaco d 70 19 200 0.00365 3.64583 Norway 4 985 2 392 314 0.00208 2.08376 Switzerland 18 273 4 035 791 0.00453 4.52774 Turkey 2 920 31 101 612 0.00009 0.09389 Central and Eastern Europe: Bulgaria 4 971 4 293 864 0.00116 1.15770 Croatia 2 309 2 365 188 0.00098 0.97624 Czech Republic 12 551 5 503 813 0.00228 2.28042 Estonia 3 265 714 788 0.00457 4.56779 Hungary 10 352 5 501 250 0.00188 1.88175 Latvia 2 178 1 248 150 0.00174 1.74498 Lithuania 4 097 1 811 934 0.00226 2.26112 Poland 19 192 20 131 961 0.00095 0.95331 Romania 7 874 11 809 227 0.00067 0.66677 Serbia and Monta 5 367 5 485 626 0.00098 0.97838 Slovakia 3 153 2 814 102 0.00112 1.12043 Slovenia 3 450 1 111 536 0.00310 3.10381 The former Yugosl 733 1 039 543 0.00071 0.70512 Commonwealth of Independent States: Armenia 516 Azerbaijan c 444 Belarus c 6 073 Georgia 697 Kazakhstan 1 223 Kyrgyzstan c 420 Republic of Moldo 1 166 Russian Federata 36 237 Tajikistan b 150 Ukraine 6 282 Uzbekistan a 1 003 North America: Canada 22 94117 126 127 0.00134 1.33953 United States a 68 175149 233 57 0.00046 0.45683 <-- Other member countries: Israel c 1 969 2792404.8 0.00071 0.70513 a/ Data for 1996 c/ Data for 1998 b/ Data for 1997 d/ Data for 2000 --------------------------------------------------------- >The average newpaper in Italy, is at least at the level of the New York >Times. I don't agree. And how often does the average Italian reader read the whole average Italian newspaper? From all of my time spent on trains and buses and in public places, I've observed the average reader is reading mostly the sports section. >The average italian news stand has wonderful magazine about art, >science, culture that people actually read. Science? Did I miss more than le Scienze? I hope that that I did. le Scienze is a small extraction (mostly) of Scientific American with a too large proportion of advertisements (lately, it seems like half). The statistics in my tables above is reading material published in the country's own language. I don't have statistics to give for reading material published in other languages, but I can comment, with my personal experience (anecdotes). A train or airport periodical (magazine) shop in a random place in Italy contains an order of magnitude less material in volume, range of subjects and languages than a random periodical shop in Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands (which is oddly not in UNESCO's database),... I always have a sense that I don't have any oxygen when I'm in an Italian magazine stand, while I feel quite at home in a Switzerland magazine stand. But then, remember, I'm skewed. --------------------------------------------------------- OTHER USEFUL STATISTICS Trends in Europe and North America Researchers per Inhabitants http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.11.xls Total Expenditure on Education as a % of GDP http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.9.xls Expenditure on Research and Development, % of GDP http://www.unece.org/stats/trends/ch3/3.12.xls (I've seen more recent stats somewhere, Italy is below 1.0 now, Spain surpassed Italy a few years ago) Ciao, Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 2 23:39:27 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:39:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits In-Reply-To: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com> At 03:15 PM 11/2/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote: >And about the common people [in Italy], well one day I was on a bus >with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while >I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) >and said that he read that book. Well, that might certainly be true of plenty of taxi drivers as well. My wife drove a bus (before she became a law professor, a farmer, a businesswoman, etc), I was a tram conductor (back before Melbourne's trams were fitted ruinously with ticket machines that most people ignore) as was a woman I know with an advanced degree in chemistry who went on to edit educational books; I know science fiction fans who work for the railways in Australia--one as a shunter, one (a woman) as an inspector--who are as well-read and quirky as anyone you're likely to meet. The common people are often surprisingly uncommon. But I'm sure you know that. :) Damien Broderick From kazvorpal at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 00:49:00 2007 From: kazvorpal at yahoo.com (KAZ) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) Message-ID: <738370.4118.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: giovanni santost To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 5:15:02 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) > while I really appreciate the statistics you are showing us, I'm kind of skeptical about > such measures as I was after reading the ones you gave for economics. > For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems impossible that > several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" than Italy. As much as those statistics are desperately intended to make socialist countries look less pathetic, the Italy scenario is quite plausible. They have an extremely interventionist socialist government, and are bordering on third world in the "peasant" way much of their populace lives and economy runs. > About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me > every European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US > immediately notices how uneducated people in general are. This isn't terribly surprising, because despite otherwise being more socialist, many European countries are less socialist in their education systems. They generally give parents some choice in where their kids are educated, for example, and even sometimes offer the vouchers that socialists in the US oppose. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 01:23:48 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 02:23:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.com> On 11/3/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > I know science fiction fans > who work for the railways in Australia... The common people are often surprisingly uncommon. Why, wasn't there a not-so-common Rand's heroine who worked for a railway company? :-) Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 3 01:52:43 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:52:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits In-Reply-To: <580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.co m> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com> <580930c20711021823l352d4efdoa38b5cdbe00c9e09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102205106.025ff988@satx.rr.com> At 02:23 AM 11/3/2007 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: > > I know science fiction fans who work for the railways in Australia... > >Why, wasn't there a not-so-common Rand's heroine who worked for a >railway company? :-) Very few of those I know owned them, though. Or even airlines. Only the plane or two. :) Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 3 03:34:40 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:34:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni santost Subject: Re: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) ... said that he read that book. How likely is that to happen in the US... Granted, not very likely. ... (not many buses here anyway...)? Ja most US places are not well suited for buses. The environmentalists were pushing them for a long time, but anyone with eyes could daily witness huge Diesel buses belching black clouds of possibly carcinogenic choking carbon particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard. The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more environmentally friendly. The solution to this paradox was your classic silicone valley: they bought a number of fuel cell buses at a cost of 1.3 million dollars each. These now can be seen belching pristine clean white clouds of steam, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard. A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the money to build bicycle-only roads. I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can do so safely. I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it sits too low to be safe in traffic. spike ? ? ? ? From kanzure at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 04:29:07 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:29:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Mega/astro-scale engineering mailing list announcement Message-ID: <200711022329.07378.kanzure@gmail.com> http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo The discussion topic is: "Astroscale/megascale engineering technical discussion, i.e. Matrioshka/Jupiter/moon brains, Dyson spheres, laser stars, etc." This is somewhat of a study group, to calculate feasabilities and poke fun at the vast imaginary structs, but news and other tidbits are OK. I'll be posting my thoughts on "laser stars" in a few days-- it's one particular application of the sun that could be used for signaling across galaxies with incredibly focused light. But would it be enough? Sidenote: on the confirmation email, click the link. The mail server is acting up and the "reply to subscribe" feature is dead. I am new to list administration. - Bryan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megastructure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroengineering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megascale_engineering http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/megascale_engineering.html "I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more evolution, more life." From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 3 06:15:38 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 07:15:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Some Worldwide reading habits (was: abandoning hope - the queuing experience) Message-ID: I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it, too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included. Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them properly under the EU heading. giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems >impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" >than Italy. Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country. When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction of the time I would need in Italy and the taxes are considerably less. In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now), I can do it in even less time. I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul, the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one bit by Switzerland's rating. >About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every >European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately >notices how uneducated people in general are. I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and why. >The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely >well rounded. Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here and in the wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics. (for example: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html) >And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of >Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for >my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read >that book. The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist). But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already very well the highly educated level of the people in that town. (I used to live there 25 years ago) The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession than an atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between..., ok never mind, that's another story, and I don't have time. Ciao, Amara From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 3 06:40:34 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 07:40:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses Message-ID: Spike: >skip the buses, use the money to >build bicycle-only roads. I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can >do so safely. I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it >sits too low to be safe in traffic. Which was another reason that decided to accept the Boulder job offer; I can get back to my Heidelberg bicycle lifestyle that I've missed so much in these last five years. The paths are everywhere (and the public transportation system is a dream). I will never accept to live any place again, where I cannot get around easily by bicycle! Amara From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 3 08:54:17 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:54:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 08:34:40PM -0700, Spike wrote: > Ja most US places are not well suited for buses. The environmentalists were It's not because of the places, though. It's because of the people. Only lowest economics rungs would use a bus, so it's associated with a social stigma. Worse still is walking (I remember being honked at when I used to walk to work in SoCal). > pushing them for a long time, but anyone with eyes could daily witness huge > Diesel buses belching black clouds of possibly carcinogenic choking carbon Of course all modern buses have particulate filters. And speaking about buses: http://bp0.blogger.com/_k8Y0SWU8PJM/Rym__7u6Z_I/AAAAAAAAACk/55XpSWglWoE/s1600-h/espacio+coches.jpg? > particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard. > The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more > environmentally friendly. Apes staying at home and joining a virtual office would be even more so. > The solution to this paradox was your classic silicone valley: they bought a > number of fuel cell buses at a cost of 1.3 million dollars each. These now > can be seen belching pristine clean white clouds of steam, chugging around > the valley with three or four apes aboard. It would take a redesign of the society to make them accept public transportation. It would take many decades to a century to restructure suburbia. > A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for > some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the money to > build bicycle-only roads. I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we can > do so safely. I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but it > sits too low to be safe in traffic. Bike lanes don't work in the U.S. for the same reason public transportation doesn't work there. Most motorists won't expect you to be there, with the predictable result on your life span. Much better idea is to move away from such places. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 08:32:23 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 01:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] Worldwide reading habits In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071102182644.02634608@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <783146.65563.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i used to have a co-worker at costco with a b.s. in nuclear engineering. I would ask him what he was doing there and he would just shrug his shoulders. I just got back from a wedding reception and my faith in humanity feels renewed. A better young couple i have not come across. I hope they have a sense of humor regarding the book i gave them. Lol john grigg Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:15 PM 11/2/2007 -0700, giovanni santost wrote: >>And about the common people [in Italy], well one day I was on a bus >>with a book of Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while >>I was holding for my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) >>and said that he read that book. > Well, that might certainly be true of plenty of taxi drivers as well. > My wife drove a bus (before she became a law professor, a farmer, a > businesswoman, etc), I was a tram conductor (back before Melbourne's > trams were fitted ruinously with ticket machines that most people > ignore) as was a woman I know with an advanced degree in chemistry > who went on to edit educational books; I know science fiction fans > who work for the railways in Australia--one as a shunter, one (a > woman) as an inspector--who are as well-read and quirky as anyone > you're likely to meet. The common people are often surprisingly > uncommon. But I'm sure you know that. :) > Damien Broderick > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 3 15:57:41 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:57:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl .... > > A far more environmentally agreeable solution has been staring at us for > > some time, one I have suggested repeatedly: skip the buses, use the > money to > > build bicycle-only roads. I and a lot of others will ride bikes if we > can > > do so safely. I have a nice recumbent that is a great street bike, but > it > > sits too low to be safe in traffic. > > Bike lanes don't work in the U.S. for the same reason public > transportation > doesn't work there. Most motorists won't expect you to be there, with the > predictable result on your life span. > > Much better idea is to move away from such places. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org Ja that is exactly my point. I didn't mean bicycle lanes, those have been tried and they are a failure, for people drive in them with their detroits and slay bicycilists. Oddly enough, under many circumstances it is legal to drive in the bike lanes, and it is certainly hazardous to cyclists. What I meant was building special bicycle and pedestrian roads, ones that are separated by a hard barrier from all motorized traffic. We have exactly one of those going in now, along the 237 corridor that leads from San Jose to the Yahoo headquarters next to Lockheed Sunnyvale. I recognize it is costly to route those things, but people will use them for low-profile bikes, which really can only be used if there are specialized bike roads. The recumbents will encourage those who cannot or will not ride standard configured bicycles because the standard seat is too hard on the ass. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 17:05:39 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> On 11/3/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > particulates, chugging around the valley with three or four apes aboard. > > The gasoline powered Detroit V8s, each hauling a single ape, are far more > > environmentally friendly. > > Apes staying at home and joining a virtual office would be even > more so. I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where possible. My personal preference to do so carries so little weight that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive (tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation. Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 3 17:15:47 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:15:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> <200711031557.lA3FvVf5018405@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071103171547.GG4005@leitl.org> On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 08:57:41AM -0700, Spike wrote: > What I meant was building special bicycle and pedestrian roads, ones that > are separated by a hard barrier from all motorized traffic. We have exactly Most bike roads here are that, being separated from the main road by granite curbs, and having specific markings and signs to draw a separatrix between pedestrians and cyclists. This is expensive to retrofit (pedestrians are restricted to few major cities in the US), and you're still roadkill candidate whenever you cross ways with motorists, if the motorists are not properly trained to expect bikers coming from any direction. My commute is ~80% through a forest on a dirt road, I do wear a brain bucket, but the likeliest way to take a spill is to have your right of way taken by an unaware motorist. I wouldn't try this stunt in too many places in the world, daily. Assuming we want to see the future we talk about, not taking certain risks is the entry ticket. > one of those going in now, along the 237 corridor that leads from San Jose > to the Yahoo headquarters next to Lockheed Sunnyvale. I recognize it is > costly to route those things, but people will use them for low-profile Very costly indeed. You'd have to elbow all the other infrastructure out of the way. > bikes, which really can only be used if there are specialized bike roads. > The recumbents will encourage those who cannot or will not ride standard > configured bicycles because the standard seat is too hard on the ass. Recumbents are great, but you could as well be riding a stealth ekranoplan. They sure won't see you coming, without giant flash xenon lights on top, and a good siren. (And a couple of ground-ground missiles to clear the way, just in case). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From brian at posthuman.com Sat Nov 3 17:33:17 2007 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 12:33:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com> Mike Dougherty wrote: > > I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where > possible. My personal preference to do so carries so little weight > that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive > (tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation. > > Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save > elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the > status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos. If you expect to save money, and your employer wants money, then why not just offer to take less salary for this type of work? -- Brian Atkins From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 3 17:48:07 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:48:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071103174807.GH4005@leitl.org> On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 01:05:39PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote: > I wish the government would incentivize business to allow this where > possible. My personal preference to do so carries so little weight > that my employer has no reason to comply, but a monetary incentive > (tax break/etc) would induce far greater motivation. If it was just for financial incentives, it would be so easy. But most modern workplace is the rock of Gibraltar, with alpha primates needing close control of the hierarchy, while simultaneously maintaining an easy dinner distance for business deals. Also, the technology is not nearly there. We'd need realtime motion capturing, including the most subtle mimic, and complete audio. This sounds like an overkill, but monkeys are funky that way. Most business structures can't handle self-organizing, self-motivated agents (which are really rare, too). To show up on time, and separating the work and playspace is a useful threshold for many people > Of course I would have to be willing to spend the money I save > elsewhere in the economy else the government risks destabilizing the > status quo - which is highly dependent on energy from dead dinos. One of the most damning part of governments is that they waste most of what they take from us forcibly. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 3 17:39:53 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:39:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all g i joes In-Reply-To: <20071103171547.GG4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200711031806.lA3I6MqE004737@andromeda.ziaspace.com> A local toy manufacturer has figured out a way to make the world live as one, and we needn't even try to imagine no religion: http://www.kpho.com/news/14502043/detail.html Talking Jesus dolls. Now why didn't we think of that sooner? Notice the rassler pecs on this dude. And this was in the days before roids and bench press machines. Compare to the images we have of Buddha, with that sloppy round belly, probably from devouring too much myrrh. Jesus on the other hand is always depicted as buff and chiseled. Impressive. Of course the kids who get these dolls will immediately set up a battle between the Jesuses and the GI Joes. The Jesus side has the whole miracle thing going, but they will need it up against the Joes, with that bad ass bazooka and the M60. spike From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 3 18:14:07 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:14:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all notions of perishing young In-Reply-To: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com> I heard on the radio that Jim Morrison would be approaching his 64th birthday had he not suffered the untimely heart attack at age 27. Natalie Wood would be nearly 70 and Marilynn Monroe would be in her early 80s had not they succumbed to heart attacks at ages 43 and 36 respectively. Nowthen, these young stars that chose lifestyles that may have contributed to their untimely heart attacks at tragically young ages have the one compensating factor that all the images of themselves are of beautiful young people. Perhaps they make dangerous lifestyle choices knowing that they will at least leave a beautiful corpse. We have seen age progressed image modification technology used to help identify long missing children. It occurred to me that we could use that technology on long dead celebrities who perished in their youth. That way, we would get to see Morrison, Wood and Monroe, not as eternally young beauties, but aging just like the rest of us. Then the next generation of risk-taking young celebrities would get the lesson that if you live fast, die young, etc, you may leave a beautiful corpse but you eventually become a crotchety old geezer anyway, at least digitally. This technology of age progressive imaging then could be seen as a safety measure for young celebrities, for it would encourage them to live safely and sanely, age naturally, just to see if their actual image is better than the theoretical computer generated age progressed image. Think of all the beautiful young lives this idea could save. spike From kanzure at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 19:06:30 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:06:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] abandon all notions of perishing young In-Reply-To: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711031840.lA3IeaFB014874@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711031406.30373.kanzure@gmail.com> On Saturday 03 November 2007 13:14, Spike wrote: > This technology of age progressive imaging then could be seen as a > safety measure for young celebrities, for it would encourage them to > live safely and sanely, age naturally, just to see if their actual > image is better than the theoretical computer generated age > progressed image. ?Think of all the beautiful young lives this idea > could save. It would be interesting to see if they can stay ahead of the curve of image enhancement technology as it becomes more and more precise in its predictions as it gets more data fed into it. - Bryan From andres at thoughtware.tv Sat Nov 3 19:35:56 2007 From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:35:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence Message-ID: Thank you Sergio and Natasha :-) Howard Bloom's book Lucifer principle is on its way. My goal will be computational, but anything will help. The more ideas I find the better. I also found a very good book on programming Collective Intelligence from an algorithmic sense, from O'Reilly, which has been a very interesting read. Thank you both for the help and thanks Natasha for the interest. I'll make sure you're both amongst the first to benefit from what I'm going to attempt next. - Andres, Thoughtware.TV This is a great project and I look forward to > hearing about what you do with it. It is not my > field but if it were my research project, I > would find as much information on this topic as > possible (googling is easy), and create a > bibliography of references. Skim through the > material, jot down notes on what relates to you > questions. Then come up with a few new more > target questions that shows that you have some > knowledge of the area. That will help anyone > responding to better address your concerns/questions/etc. > > >And second and most important: How can it be harnessed? > >I would like to see examples on how it can be > >harnessed. From bacterial colonies, web-services > >and human computation, I would like for you to > >share any resources, blogs, websites, books, > >fiction or not, arts, anything you can remember or find. > > Okay, will do in the immersive arts, etc. > > Natasha > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 23:29:07 -0500 > From: Bryan Bishop < kanzure at gmail.com> > Subject: [wta-talk] Mega/astro-scale engineering mailing list > announcement > To: orions_arm at yahoogroups.com, World Transhumanist Association > Discussion List , "'ExI chat list'" > > Message-ID: <200711022329.07378.kanzure at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo > > The discussion topic is: "Astroscale/megascale engineering technical > discussion, i.e. Matrioshka/Jupiter/moon brains, Dyson spheres, laser > stars, etc." > > This is somewhat of a study group, to calculate feasabilities and poke > fun at the vast imaginary structs, but news and other tidbits are OK. > > I'll be posting my thoughts on "laser stars" in a few days-- it's one > particular application of the sun that could be used for signaling > across galaxies with incredibly focused light. But would it be enough? > > Sidenote: on the confirmation email, click the link. The mail server is > acting up and the "reply to subscribe" feature is dead. I am new to > list administration. > > - Bryan > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megastructure > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroengineering > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megascale_engineering > http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/megascale_engineering.html > > "I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: more > human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more > suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more > evolution, more life." > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > wta-talk mailing list > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > ------------------------------------ > WTA-talk is an open forum and views expressed here are not necessarily > representative of the WTA or compatible with transhumanism. > > > End of wta-talk Digest, Vol 47, Issue 6 > *************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Nov 3 19:57:20 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:57:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711031957.lA3JvLfa016849@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com> At 02:35 PM 11/3/2007, you wrote: >Thank you Sergio and Natasha :-) > >Howard Bloom's book Lucifer principle is on its way. My goal will be >computational, but anything will help. The more ideas I find the better. > >I also found a very good book on programming Collective Intelligence >from an algorithmic sense, from O'Reilly, which has been a very >interesting read. This morning I was reading about telematics and Roy Ascott (my advisor) and I think you would find he writing of great interest. Telematic Embrace is especially good. (You also might enjoy the ideas of William Grey Walter, Anthony Stafford Beer, and William Ross Ashby). Natasha From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 20:56:16 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 16:56:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] abandon all buses In-Reply-To: <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com> References: <924183.78537.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711030334.lA33YWIj000421@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071103085417.GB4005@leitl.org> <62c14240711031005j426402e5tb2edec31fbe968@mail.gmail.com> <472CB0DD.90502@posthuman.com> Message-ID: <62c14240711031356g6c0b669hb3259b5353c5427c@mail.gmail.com> On 11/3/07, Brian Atkins wrote: > If you expect to save money, and your employer wants money, then why not just > offer to take less salary for this type of work? That would be un-American. :) From santostasigio at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 21:41:08 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] science in Italy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <788222.96060.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Amara, I understand your bitterness and disappointment towards Italy, but I think you have raw feelings right now, I completly sympathize with you completely, after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad. I left 13 years ago and even if it is a little while, I cannot imagine the country changed completly in few years. The south of Italy is almost a complete different world as you reported in your past entry. Bologna, were I went to college is a wonderful city and in its University (the oldest in world) the general Physics class had about 300 students in it when I was there. Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science (statistics have limitations of course but they give an idea)... Italy doesn't seem to score to bad give its size.... http://www.in-cites.com/research/2003/june_9_2003-1.html For example in space science, the Italian contribution (between 1998-2002) to worldwide articles in the field is about 18 % above world average. Italy has ranking 7th in the Essential Science Indicators list that contains 145 countries. http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2006allfields.html No bad.... Amara Graps wrote: I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it, too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included. Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them properly under the EU heading. giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems >impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" >than Italy. Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country. When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction of the time I would need in Italy and the taxes are considerably less. In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now), I can do it in even less time. I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul, the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one bit by Switzerland's rating. >About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every >European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately >notices how uneducated people in general are. I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and why. >The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely >well rounded. Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here and in the wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics. (for example: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html) >And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of >Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for >my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read >that book. The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist). But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already very well the highly educated level of the people in that town. (I used to live there 25 years ago) The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession than an atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between..., ok never mind, that's another story, and I don't have time. Ciao, Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Sat Nov 3 22:21:08 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] science in Italy In-Reply-To: <788222.96060.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <819849.8005.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 'after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad.' what I meant was the situation is not that bad ..... giovanni santost wrote: Hi Amara, I understand your bitterness and disappointment towards Italy, but I think you have raw feelings right now, I completly sympathize with you completely, after all I left my own country. I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation is not bad. I left 13 years ago and even if it is a little while, I cannot imagine the country changed completly in few years. The south of Italy is almost a complete different world as you reported in your past entry. Bologna, were I went to college is a wonderful city and in its University (the oldest in world) the general Physics class had about 300 students in it when I was there. Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science (statistics have limitations of course but they give an idea)... Italy doesn't seem to score to bad give its size.... http://www.in-cites.com/research/2003/june_9_2003-1.html For example in space science, the Italian contribution (between 1998-2002) to worldwide articles in the field is about 18 % above world average. Italy has ranking 7th in the Essential Science Indicators list that contains 145 countries. http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2006allfields.html No bad.... Amara Graps wrote: I slightly changed the subject line because I made a mistake with it, too quick. Of course large parts of the world are still not included. Also the statistics were from 1999, before all of the new EU member countries entered. I should have rearranged the rows to include them properly under the EU heading. giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >For what concerns the economical ones, for example, it seems >impossible that >several 3rd world countries are more "competitive" >than Italy. Which? Its broken infrastructure does not make Italy a modern country. When was the last time you tried to set up a business in Italy? I looked into it, and ... it's not very different from trying to get a permesso di soggiorno in terms of complexity and complications and time. And the taxes are horrendous. I can set up a business in Latvia in a fraction of the time I would need in Italy and the taxes are considerably less. In Estonia (one of the strongest business climates in Europe now), I can do it in even less time. I suggest to visit Turkey to see what an emerging new European country looks like. Please notice the ease of public transportation in Istanbul, the high energy business climate, the cleanliness. And I've spent a fair bit of time in Switzerland (I almost went to Bern instead of deciding to go go Boulder) in the last few years (have you?), I'm not surprised one bit by Switzerland's rating. >About the readings, again, statistics are fine, but believe me every >European (or anybody from anywhere else) that comes to US immediately >notices how uneducated people in general are. I already commented on the heterogenity of reading habits in different US places. (Have you ever lived in the SF Bay area?). My point was comparing Italian reading habits to other Europeans. And everyone here knows that I prefer to live in Europe much more than the US, and why. >The educated people in Italy, in particular scientists are extremely >well rounded. Of the rare few that exist, Yes. Remember too that PhDs were not given in Italy until early-middle 1980s, so you will never find an Italian PhD scientist above the age of 50 who earned their PhD in Italy. And yes, I've already commented some number of times here and in the wta list on Italian's education focus in the Classics. (for example: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-June/035945.html) >And about the common people, well one day I was on a bus with a book of >Nietzsche and the driver started to talk to me (while I was holding for >my life to the rail in the front of the bus, lol) and said that he read >that book. The waiter serving my colleagues and I in Boulder knew the difference between several models of string theory (and he wasn't a scientist). But then I wouldn't have chosen that place (Boulder) to make this particular big move (It's a recovery strategy from Italy) if I did not know already very well the highly educated level of the people in that town. (I used to live there 25 years ago) The typical Frascati, Italy scenario is the local 20s something person who thinks that a truck driver is a more useful and interesting profession than an atmospheric scientist studying climatology.. I'm sure that he could quote Augustus, but he wouldn't know the difference between..., ok never mind, that's another story, and I don't have time. Ciao, Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 3 23:12:25 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 00:12:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] science in Italy Message-ID: giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation >is not bad. I left a permanent job. (And that 12,000 euros pension I paid.. ? Gone..... like my 10,000 euros savings and everything else..) These five years was like a continual white hot fire, what came out at the other side was a trace of the person that entered. Last Monday was _so_ fitting. I gave up everything else of me to the country. At the end, there was nothing else left to give, but those documents. >Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science Yes, I know. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/basic-research-.html#comment-81664115 Amara P.S. I know about Bologna, my good friend (working at IFSI-Roma) is from there, and returns as often as possible because it is the only place where she can relax. Maybe you and her should have a conversation. P.P.S. Or better yet, I give you my former job. From santostasigio at yahoo.com Sun Nov 4 02:18:27 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 19:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] science in Italy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <190495.6185.qm@web31310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, ok, peace... I'm sure your decision was very hard and you had really bad experiences to make you choose to give up and I just offer all my support... all I wanted to do here, was to defend a little the value of my country, but I do understand all its limitations and missed opportunities... I hope you will be happy with your new job, I'm sure you will be fine in Colorado... and thank you, I pass on your old job...lol Amara Graps wrote: giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >I don't understand your extreme negative view though, the situation >is not bad. I left a permanent job. (And that 12,000 euros pension I paid.. ? Gone..... like my 10,000 euros savings and everything else..) These five years was like a continual white hot fire, what came out at the other side was a trace of the person that entered. Last Monday was _so_ fitting. I gave up everything else of me to the country. At the end, there was nothing else left to give, but those documents. >Talking about statistics, here some about Italian science Yes, I know. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/basic-research-.html#comment-81664115 Amara P.S. I know about Bologna, my good friend (working at IFSI-Roma) is from there, and returns as often as possible because it is the only place where she can relax. Maybe you and her should have a conversation. P.P.S. Or better yet, I give you my former job. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Sun Nov 4 06:59:07 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:59:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] science in Italy Message-ID: >I hope you will be happy with your new job, I'm sure you will be >fine in Colorado... It's my best recovery strategy from the last years. I expect large and good things to happen in Boulder. I have several strategies planned for how I can return to Europe (not Italy) after I complete my SwRI contract. I'm in Europe ten years, and despite the burn of Italy, Europe is still where I know I can best build my and my dependents' long-term future. Amara From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:00:10 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:00:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles Message-ID: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com> Natasha Vita-More once defined H+ as "the commitment to overcoming human limits in all forms," it is the deepest commitment to self-creation requiring the most serious mind, whether the consequences be the dreaded cancer that fills reality full of forms, or the equally and oppositely unwarranted complacency that (I suspect) has fallen over the >H community as of late, that serves as a minima on the Great Unfolding of reality. Striking the 'right' rate is tricky, and hopefully this can serve to stimulate some minds. As Neo put it in the original script to The Matrix: > I believe that to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your > cage. You have to change yourself. http://fusionanomaly.net/matrix.html There has been discussion in the past on the transient nature of the self. We are continuously being recreated again and again. Is it not within our reach to tap into this recreation process (the change) and tell the unfolding story of individual selves as we mean to? From 1995 came "The Truth" said to be essentially transhumanist: > The wise among us accept their true identity as being part of a > growing god, and they attempt to live aligned with the godward path of > our growing universe by always making choices that help themselves and > all others become their most godlike. http://web.archive.org/web/19970212041820/www.the-truth.com/summary.html And in 1989 began the Silicon (Br)/otherhood: > Now we, the initiators, explorers, guardians and even exploiters of > the Silicon awareness revolution are concerned about its uses and > abuses, and above all, acknowlegde its potential for growing awareness > and human transcedence. We owe today's hackers and whiz- kids, and > ourselves, the opportunity to follow the Silicon Path, becoming the > magi(cians) and mystics of our times. If the computer is nothing but > another way to get in touch with the ultimate reality (and what else > could it be), it needs some `small' br/others to safeguard that path. http://www.net.info.nl/myster/school/brtherh.htm Neverness (1988): > I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: > more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more > suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more > evolution, more life. http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/zindell.html However: from my observations of transhumanists, while some want more (in the information theoretic, programmed, thermodynamical, or complexity sense), others seem to want things to be Better, for the universe and reality to be other than it is, in a much more 'social' sense. I understand and respect that there exists a diversity of forms, and this diversity is important, yes, but it still irks me as to how H+ has become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps, intended. Wouldn't H+ imply the transcension beyond good/bad and in its place the responsibility of caretaker, of programmer-scientist, storyteller, of change agent? Ultimately I suspect that there are some first principles from which transhumanism can be derived and if not, something close to it. These first principles would be able to give us a glimpse into whether or not 'ethics' and 'morality' are truly needed at the core of transhumanist philosophy. - Bryan From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:18:40 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:18:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711040718t1d99a6e0mbc5eda36b88f0f8f@mail.gmail.com> Interesting observations. But why do we have to choose? I want more AND better. Also, more implies the possibility of better (of course it implies also the possibility of worse), and better requires more option to choose from. G. On Nov 4, 2007 4:00 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > > Natasha Vita-More once defined H+ as "the commitment to overcoming human > limits in all forms," it is the deepest commitment to self-creation > requiring the most serious mind, whether the consequences be the dreaded > cancer that fills reality full of forms, or the equally and oppositely > unwarranted complacency that (I suspect) has fallen over the >H > community as of late, that serves as a minima on the Great Unfolding of > reality. Striking the 'right' rate is tricky, and hopefully this can > serve to stimulate some minds. > > As Neo put it in the original script to The Matrix: > > I believe that to be truly free, truly free, you cannot change your > > cage. You have to change yourself. > http://fusionanomaly.net/matrix.html > > There has been discussion in the past on the transient nature of the > self. We are continuously being recreated again and again. Is it not > within our reach to tap into this recreation process (the change) and > tell the unfolding story of individual selves as we mean to? > > >From 1995 came "The Truth" said to be essentially transhumanist: > > The wise among us accept their true identity as being part of a > > growing god, and they attempt to live aligned with the godward path of > > our growing universe by always making choices that help themselves and > > all others become their most godlike. > http://web.archive.org/web/19970212041820/www.the-truth.com/summary.html > > And in 1989 began the Silicon (Br)/otherhood: > > Now we, the initiators, explorers, guardians and even exploiters of > > the Silicon awareness revolution are concerned about its uses and > > abuses, and above all, acknowlegde its potential for growing awareness > > and human transcedence. We owe today's hackers and whiz- kids, and > > ourselves, the opportunity to follow the Silicon Path, becoming the > > magi(cians) and mystics of our times. If the computer is nothing but > > another way to get in touch with the ultimate reality (and what else > > could it be), it needs some `small' br/others to safeguard that path. > http://www.net.info.nl/myster/school/brtherh.htm > > Neverness (1988): > > I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: > > more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more > > suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more > > evolution, more life. > http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/zindell.html > > However: from my observations of transhumanists, while some want more > (in the information theoretic, programmed, thermodynamical, or > complexity sense), others seem to want things to be Better, for the > universe and reality to be other than it is, in a much more 'social' > sense. > > I understand and respect that there exists a diversity of forms, and > this diversity is important, yes, but it still irks me as to how H+ has > become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps, > intended. Wouldn't H+ imply the transcension beyond good/bad and in its > place the responsibility of caretaker, of programmer-scientist, > storyteller, of change agent? > > Ultimately I suspect that there are some first principles from which > transhumanism can be derived and if not, something close to it. These > first principles would be able to give us a glimpse into whether or > not 'ethics' and 'morality' are truly needed at the core of > transhumanist philosophy. > > - Bryan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 4 15:19:33 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:19:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Bishop ... > ... but it still irks me as to how H+ has > become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps, > intended... - Bryan Really, it irks you? It encourages me. The diversity of ideas that has spun off from the original concepts of extropy demonstrate the basic vitality and power of those notions. If extropy (interpreted as either a subset or superset of transhumanism) generates robust debate, all the better. I see no down side of this philosophy becoming a playground of ideas for shaping the future. spike From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:48:21 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:48:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711040718t1d99a6e0mbc5eda36b88f0f8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711040900.10362.kanzure@gmail.com> <470a3c520711040718t1d99a6e0mbc5eda36b88f0f8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711040948.21663.kanzure@gmail.com> On Sunday 04 November 2007 09:18, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > But why do we have to choose? I want more AND better. As you said: more implies better as well as worse. Given more, there would be fluctuation between which (better or worse) there is more of at the time. The problem with 'better' is that it is this subjective selection (limit) over more. And aren't those limits what we are trying to overcome? One day we may find ourselves pushing against the *real* limits from information theoretics, thermodynamics, etc. - Bryan From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 15:51:19 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:51:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> On Sunday 04 November 2007 09:19, spike wrote: > ?I see no down side of this philosophy becoming a playground of > ideas for shaping the future. Signal-to-noise? But I also agree with you- we should encourage diversity, it is good, but how will we maintain the original signal? - Bryan From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Nov 4 15:06:17 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 09:06:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Lifeboat News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711041506.lA4F6IT1019587@ms-smtp-05.texas.rr.com> At 08:54 PM 10/29/2007, Sergio wrote: >Oct 28 - >Nobel Laureate Eric S. >Maskin joins our Scientific Advisory Board. We congratulate him on >his 2007 Nobel win! Great news - congratulations - Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at betterhumans.com Sun Nov 4 16:23:54 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 11:23:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Aubrey's "Ending Aging" mentioned on SNL last night Message-ID: There was a gag on Saturday Night Live's newscast last night that made mention of Aubrey's latest book, Ending Aging. In the background was a screenshot of the book and the quotes, "Aging is a disease." The newscaster (Amy Poehler) quipped that Aubrey was no crackpot, and she could prove it by showing his picture. She then displayed the 'photo of Aubrey,' which was a poindexterish infant wearing a monocle. I nearly fell off my chair in surprise. George From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 4 17:01:12 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 09:01:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711041701.lA4H18IP000344@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Bishop > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:51 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles > > On Sunday 04 November 2007 09:19, spike wrote: > > ?I see no down side of this philosophy becoming a playground of > > ideas for shaping the future. > > Signal-to-noise? But I also agree with you- we should encourage > diversity, it is good, but how will we maintain the original signal? > > - Bryan Ja, I see your point. Here is one that I consider especially relevant to transhumanism. Suppose a technology comes along that gives humanity more and better of everything. Now suppose one can roughly divide humanity in halves by how much stuff they have. Call them the haves and the have-nots. This new technology gives the have-nots twice as much and twice-as-better than they had before (yaaaaa!). But the haves get four times as much and four times as better as before. Now everyone has more and better than before, some twice, the others four times. But now the gap between the haves and have-nots is twice what is was. Did humanity progress? Of course. This is exactly what has happened, ja? Technology has given humanity more and better, but those who already had more and better received more and better still. I can easily imagine this process accelerating dramatically. Lesson: get in a position to take advantage of more and better technology. spike From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Nov 4 21:42:21 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:42:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711042142.lA4LgNDQ002580@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com> At 09:51 AM 11/4/2007, Bryan wrote: >On Sunday 04 November 2007 09:19, spike wrote: > > I see no down side of this philosophy becoming a playground of > > ideas for shaping the future. > >Signal-to-noise? But I also agree with you- we should encourage >diversity, it is good, but how will we maintain the original signal? Extropy. From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 4 17:34:05 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:34:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/07, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Sunday 04 November 2007 09:19, spike wrote: > > I see no down side of this philosophy becoming a playground of > > ideas for shaping the future. > > Signal-to-noise? But I also agree with you- we should encourage > diversity, it is good, but how will we maintain the original signal? I'm encouraged by the perspicacity of Bryan's comments in this thread, and I share his concern for, in over-simplified terms, the quality of the signal to noise. I also share his interest and appreciation for understanding in terms of principles (of thermodynamics, information theory, complex systems, etc.) I'll leave his reference to the question of morality (involving theories of interactive epistemology, and of rational cooperation over increasing context/scope) for another time. I would like to highlight, however, a common bias that has appeared already a few times in this thread, relevant to the topic of the thread itself, and which impedes our thinking about probable futures. Bryan says here "but how will we maintain the original signal?" and "has become a playground encompassing more than was originally, perhaps, intended." and quotes Natasha as saying "the commitment to overcoming human limits in all forms..." Each of these statements carries an implicit assumption of a fixed reference for comparison, a heuristic effective within the environment of our tribal ancestors, where change in the context of their daily lives was indiscernible, but less applicable to contemporary life, and quite inappropriate for extrapolation to complex, evolving futures. We see the "original signal" as good, but its contextual environment is evolving, so it too must adapt, or become irrelevant. The "playground" does tend to encompass more and to become more unruly, but as Spike pointed out, this is good. It corresponds to the evolutionary aspect of superabundance, feeding recombination and mutation, followed by selection necessary for ongoing growth. Natasha once said "overcoming human limits in all forms", but I know she's a student of systems theory, and she might now appreciate that extropy is not so much about overcoming limits but more coherently about promoting ongoing meaningful growth. The former assumes knowledge of limits "out there" which is incoherent (can't be modeled) precisely because it's "out there." The latter assumes an open-ended evolutionary model, working outward with no need to know what it is to overcome. In fact all growth is defined by its constraints, and intelligence is all about increasingly effective understanding and exploitation of constraints rather than overcoming them in any practical sense. The foregoing, with some consideration of the dynamics of dissipative systems from a first-person point of view within the system, might be be reassuring with regard to *subjective* concerns [what other kind could there be?) about the ultimate thermodynamic fate of the universe. - Jef From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Nov 4 22:03:43 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 16:03:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism from first principles In-Reply-To: References: <200711041546.lA4Fk1cR007857@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711040951.20005.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711042203.lA4M3j2j024488@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com> At 11:34 AM 11/4/2007, Jef wrote: >Natasha once said "overcoming human limits in all forms", but I know >she's a student of systems theory, and she might now appreciate that >extropy is not so much about overcoming limits but more coherently >about promoting ongoing meaningful growth. Well I was a student of systems theory 3 years ago while working on my first masters degree. :-) I have two thoughts on this: first, there are identifiable limits to overcome (death for one); and second, extropy does concern continuous growth. best, Natasha From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 5 01:40:29 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:40:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] POSTSINGULAR Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071104193526.023b5f50@satx.rr.com> Rudy Rucker's new novel from Tor can be downloaded free as pdf or HTML at http://www.rudyrucker.com/postsingular/#postsingulardownload (And while I'm spruiking for Rudy, I might as well footnote for the benefit of anyone new here that POST MORTAL SYNDROME--co-written by Barbara Lamar and me--is still available free at where comments pro or con can be posted.) Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 08:02:18 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:02:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] POSTSINGULAR In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071104193526.023b5f50@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071104193526.023b5f50@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > Rudy Rucker's new novel from Tor can be downloaded free as pdf or HTML at > http://www.rudyrucker.com/postsingular/#postsingulardownload > > (And while I'm spruiking for Rudy, I might as well footnote for the > benefit of anyone new here that POST MORTAL SYNDROME--co-written by > Barbara Lamar and me--is still available free at > > > where comments pro or con can be posted.) Hey, most people here don't speak strine! :) Subtitles would be nice. I had to ask Google, where I discovered that in Melbourne, 'amplified spruiking' was banned. Sounds almost enticing. BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 08:07:04 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:07:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin Message-ID: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 worth noting the typical crap about "Since 99.5% of Transhumanists are white males, they don't care about any of these issues". Of course when you tell them that even if you are a white male you DO care about all of these issues, they will not believe you. This is just PC crap. Sorry my friend the author, I am a transhumanist and I am NOT a neocon. Sorry if that does not fit into your dumb black and white worldview. The author also shows the typical lack of appreciation for complexity. Aging research is bad because it takes effort away from other things. This is BS. If those who dedicated their energy to making the first fore had followed the dictates of the PC majority that certainly existed also at those times, we would still be eating raw meat. Humanity has progressed so far because a wide range of people, each with her or his particular interests and sensibilities, have dedicated their energy to a wide range of problems. I wanted to leave this comment to the article but the Kuro5hin system does not let me in (perhaps it understands that I am a bad transhumanist neocon). Try to leave comments. G. From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Nov 5 14:11:46 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:11:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com > References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711051414.lA5EEEuO008995@ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com> At 02:07 AM 11/5/2007, you wrote: >http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 Who is the author? Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bkdelong at pobox.com Mon Nov 5 15:11:36 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:11:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That was my thought as well - I'm a very progressive liberal and I am most certainly transhumanist. Of course, I do subscribe to the "white male" part but there are transhumanists all over the globe. How short sighted. I'll read the full piece and comment more fully when I have time. Though be careful in responding in an agitated state - It could be meant as "troll bait" just for that reason. On 11/5/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 > > worth noting the typical crap about "Since 99.5% of Transhumanists are > white males, they don't care about any of these issues". Of course > when you tell them that even if you are a white male you DO care about > all of these issues, they will not believe you. This is just PC crap. > Sorry my friend the author, I am a transhumanist and I am NOT a > neocon. Sorry if that does not fit into your dumb black and white > worldview. -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From rpwl at lightlink.com Mon Nov 5 17:11:28 2007 From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:11:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The reality of our science future In-Reply-To: References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472F4EC0.10400@lightlink.com> Michio Kaku's new documentary: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7078679.stm A typical example of the "Everything just the same, but WOW look at the shiny gizmos!!" vision of the future. *Without* a seriously general-purpose AI in the near future, most of the shiny gizmos are going to be hard to get, prone to failure and unwanted side-effects, and delivered into a world coming apart at the seams. *With* a seriously general-purpose AI, on the other hand, the shiny gizmos won't even make it onto the radar screen because everything and its mother will change. Sigh. Close window. Back to work. Richard Loosemore From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 5 18:21:01 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:21:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] spruiking In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071104193526.023b5f50@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071105121613.023cf658@satx.rr.com> At 08:02 AM 11/5/2007 +0000, BillK in UK wrote: >Hey, most people here don't speak strine! :) Encarta online says: spruik (past and past participle spruiked, present participle spruik?ing, 3rd person present singular spruiks) intransitive verb Definition: Australia promote: to promote goods, services, or a cause by addressing people in a public place ( humorous ) I find another online definition, with example: spruik (sprook) verb intr. To make an elaborate speech, especially to attract customers.[Of unknown origin.] "[Lee Iacocca] appeared in the first of 80 television commercials spruiking a money-back guarantee if people disliked their new Chryslers." Gideon Haigh; Corporate kings; The Times (London, UK); Mar 17, 2004. Then again, although Mr. Haigh was born in London, he's an Aussie sports/business journo (or journalist) working in Old Blighty (or Britain.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 5 18:21:01 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:21:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] spruiking In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071104193526.023b5f50@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071105121613.023cf658@satx.rr.com> At 08:02 AM 11/5/2007 +0000, BillK in UK wrote: >Hey, most people here don't speak strine! :) Encarta online says: spruik (past and past participle spruiked, present participle spruik?ing, 3rd person present singular spruiks) intransitive verb Definition: Australia promote: to promote goods, services, or a cause by addressing people in a public place ( humorous ) I find another online definition, with example: spruik (sprook) verb intr. To make an elaborate speech, especially to attract customers.[Of unknown origin.] "[Lee Iacocca] appeared in the first of 80 television commercials spruiking a money-back guarantee if people disliked their new Chryslers." Gideon Haigh; Corporate kings; The Times (London, UK); Mar 17, 2004. Then again, although Mr. Haigh was born in London, he's an Aussie sports/business journo (or journalist) working in Old Blighty (or Britain.) From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:19:26 2007 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:19:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique Message-ID: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> On my blog, someone anonymous posted a long rebuttal ( http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=606#comment-102290) of Kurzweil's ideas that I think some people may be interested in. Note that just because I post it doesn't mean I agree or disagree with any specific claims therein. Enjoy! ~~~ Ray Kurzweil is an obvious crackpot. He's nothing but a much better-educated version of your typical ufologist. The claims he makes about current technology are provably false, so we shouldn't be surprised that the claims Kurzweil makes about future technology qualify as delusional. There exist so many clear-cut examples of Kurzweil's claims being obviously and flagrant false that it's hard to choose just a few, but one good example is Kurzweil's flagrantly false assertion that "We understand the human ear and we have reverse engineered it," referring to cochlear implants. This is not just wrong, it's widely known to be wrong. Roughly 1/3 of cochlear implants work well enough for the recipients to understand speech in cases where there isn't overlapping conversations or ambient noise. However, even in those best-case scenarios, the cochlear implant never works 100% of the time, and basically functions as an aid to lip-reading. So even in the most successful cases, people with high-functioning cochlear implants need to lip-read some of the time to understand human speech. In another 1/3 of the cases cochlear implants work at a low-functioning level and it's possible to understand some speech, but music and other sounds don't come through well. (in the best high-functioning cases, cochlear implants not only allow the recipient to hear music, but to enjoy it.) And in 1/3 of the cases cochear implants don't work at all. www.johnhorgan.org/work16.htm It should be emphasized that scientists do not understand why cochlear implants work well in some recipients and don't work at all in others. It's not the technology since the implants are identical. It should also be pointed out that whenever anyone gets a cochlear implant, they initially go through a long period of several months in which they perceive nothing but noise coming from the implant. The brain gradually adjusts to the signals and eventually deciphers them (in cases where the implant works) and over a long period of time, in the best cases, recipients can hear not only pitch but also timbral differences. However, cochlear implant recipients who lost their hearing as children or as adults report that even in the best case, cochlear implants produce input that sounds nothing like ordinary hearing. So Kurweil's claim that scientists have mapped the brain and understand how much of it functions are provably false. Scientists have not mapped the brain even partially. We still don't know all the functions of (for example) the left temporal lobe. Scientists do NOT understand how even the simplest parts of the brain, like the auditory cortex, function ? at least, not well enough to reverse-engineer them. As for nanotechnology and hard AI, those fields have run into brick walls so complete that there's no more point in discussing those delusions than in debating the claims of scientologists or alchemists. http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/featured_articles/v12n02_AI_gone_awry.html Science is making progress and technology has produced many advances. But the kinds of advances Kurzweil is talking about are not just futuristic, they belong to the realm of hallucinogenic self-delusion like GM's nuclear powered Nucleon concept car, a robot with human-level intelligence and manual dexterity in every home, a personal helicopter for everyone, personal jet packs, flying cars, and other seemingly drug-induced fantasies out of the TV kiddies' cartoon The Jetsons. Kurzweil's claims about enhancing intelligence through genetic engineering in particular show his desperate ignorance of basic molecular biology and population statistics and cognitive psychology. No one knows what intelligence is or how to measure it ? and the evidence for that failure is overwhelming: For most of the 20th century, intelligence was viewed as an all-purpose, monolithic power, christened g by psychologist Charles Spearman. Creativity was believed to be a side effect of a high level of general intelligence - a mark of big g. The father of the standardised-testing industry, Lewis Terman, created the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale to quantify this power. He launched the longest scientific study in history, Genetic Studies of Genius, to track the accomplishments of highly gifted grade-school children through the course of their lives. His hope that an impressive IQ score would augur groundbreaking accomplishments in science and art, however, didn't pan out. His young Termites, as he affectionately called them, did end up earning slots at better universities and getting hired for executive positions, often with help from Terman. They gave the world two memorable inventions: the K ration and I Love Lucy. (Both Ancel Keys, who perfected single-meal pouches for the US Army, and Jess Oppenheimer, the creator of the popular TV show, were Termites.) For the most part, however, real genius slipped through Terman's net. None of his prodigies won major scientific prizes or became important artists, while two students excluded from the study for having insufficient test scores, William Shockley and Luis Alvarez, went on to earn Nobels. http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/education/a_rage _to_master.htm A test that allegedly measures "intelligence" but sieves out two future Nobel prize winners in the sciences constitutes such an obviously grotesque failure that hardly anything else need be said on the subject of testing for intelligence. Clearly, we can't reliably test intelligence. We don't have a ghost of a clue what intelligence is, and we have no idea how to about figuring out how to determine what intgelligence is. What we do know about measured IQ is that it is not correlated with achievement or general problem-solving ability. Marilyn vos Savant, the person with the highest recorded IQ, used to author a puzzle column for a newspaper, and now works as an accountant for her husband's business. Hardly a stellar record of achievement. You might expect the highest IQ segment of the population to correlate with the admissions to the top 50 colleges or the list of Nobel Prize winners ? you'd be wrong. Dead wrong. Completely 100% wrong. Turns out a Bulgarian woman with one ofhte highest recorded IQs can't even get a job, much less admission into a top-50 U.S. university. Nobel Prize winners tend to come from small colleges, not out of the top 50 most prestigious colleges. Nobel Prize winners tend not to come from the top half percent of the IQ test scorers ? Richard Feynman had measured IQ of 120, much much lower than Marilyn Vos Savant or most of hte pople in MENSA. The delusion that we know what intelligence is, and therefore we can build smarter computers, and that those computers will therefore be able to build even smtarter computers, is a chain of errors as foolish and as crazy as the chain of errors involved in claiming that lightning bugs are produced when lightning strikes a bug. We don't know what intelligence is. Even if we did know, there's no evidence we can enhance it or replicate it. (We know perfectly well what imgaination is ? can we enhance ir or replicate it?) Even if we could enhance or replicate intelligence in silicon, there's no evidence at all that a smarter-than-human computer would be able to build a computer smarter than itself (and there's a huge mountain of evidence showing that it couldn't?just look how impossible it has been for the smartest humans to produce computers smarter than themselves). And even if superhumanly smart computers could produce computers smarter than themselves, what's the evidence that they wouldn't just sit around contemplaing beautiful paintings instead of interacting with humans? Do really smart human spend their time explaining themselves to ants? Why would superhumanly smart computers even bother to interact with us, assuming they were possible ? whiich is unliikley to the point of practical impossibility? Nobel prize winners, asked about what produced their breakthroughs, do not cite intelligence ? instead, they refer to qualities like "imagination" and "persistence." Neither Ray Kurzweil nor any molecular geneticist has suggested or shown any method of genetically eningeering reliable enhancements to human creativity or persistence. No one even has any idea how to measure these qualities quantitatively, much less genetically enhance them, or even if they can be genetically enhanced. The usual kooks and cranks and flakes will of course erupt with red-faced flatulent fury to shriek "that article from Skeptic magazine you linked to doesn't prove anything!" That's a lie. Moreover, it's simple and easy to prove that it's a lie. The article proves that none of the myriad claims made by AI researchers have ever panned out, it proves that every single one of the most prestigious current AI researchers with tenured positions as head of the best cutting-edge AI resarch labs in the finest universities in the world all believe "AI is brain-dead" and "AI has hit a brick wall." The article from the Skeptic magazine cited above proves that there are not just one, but many incredibly hard problems facing AI research ? problems so unsolvable, so refractory, so shockingly intransigent, that no one has even been able to suggest even a hypothetical way to get around them, much less make progress in AI and genetic engineering of human intelligence or build Drexlerian nanotech assemblers, by solving them. These problems include the frame problem and the combinatorial explosion search problem for expert systems and the self-reference problem for AI, the problem of junk DNA and the RNA world paradigm and the really really tough problem of reverse-engineering emergent systems for genetic engineering, and the problem of molecular stiction and Brownian bombardment and the destruction by Brownian forces and Van Der Waals forces and molecular folding of the paper-tape-type ecnoded instructions required for a rod-logic atomic level computer to work and be programmable in a general Von Neuman sense. Before the kooks and cranks and flakes who deny that Kurzweil is spouting gibberish continue with their rants, they need to do the following: [1] Show us a working AI computer program which solves the frame problem. Not just a diagram, not just pseudo-code, not just a research paper on how to write such a program ? a working AI program that solves the frame problem. Show us such an example, or shut up because you're an ignorant liar. [2] Show us a working automated translation program that reliably takes in natural language and reliably spits back out idiomatic English without grammatical or semantic errors. Not just a program that works on 50% of the words in sentences, not something that needs huge amounts of human intervention to work, not pseudo-code, not a white paper on how to write such a program, but an actual working AI program. Show us that, or shut up because you're an ignorant liar. [3] An AI program that reads a novel and summarizes the book in a book report that's accurate and succinct. Not just pseudo-code, not just a research proposal, but an actual working program. Show us that, or shut up, because you're an ignorant liar. [4] A computer program that can listen to a piece of music and tell us whether it's any good. In other words, a computer program that can realiably tell the difference between randomly-generated junk and a pop tune. Any human can tell the difference in 3 seconds, but no computer can. Once again, don't just provide pseudo-ccde, not just a research proposal, but an actual working program. Show us that, or shut up because you're an ignorant liar. [5] An AI program which can negotiate a labor agreement. Not just pseudo-code, not a proposal, but an actual working program. Show us that, or shut up because you're an ignorant liar. Every single time the kooks and cranks and flakes who deny that Kurzweil is a crackpot get asked to show any of these actual working computer programs, they always give evasions and excuses. They backpedal and fum-fuh and spin long-winded elaborate incoherent stories to explain why they can't give us any evidence. In short, Kurzweil and his supporters ? when asked for evidence ? give the same kind of response you get from ufologists or Bigfoot enthusiasts or hollow earth proponents when you ask 'em for hard evidence of their claims. They give you nothing ? nothing but smoke and mirrors, lies and bullshit, incoherent excuses and vague assertions like "it may take many years to produce results" or "we're just starting to reesarch these areas." The exact same kinds of vague hand-waving you get when you confront ufologists and ask them for proof of their wild claims. As for the kooks and cranks and flakes who will claim "it's easy enough to debunk all these claims that AI and genetic engineering to enahnce human intelligence and nanotechnology don't work and aren't working and never will work, but I don't have the time" ? you're lying and I can prove it. If you can debunk the assertion that these technologies don't work and haven't worked and can't work, great?do it. Do it now. Do it right now. Give us the hard evidence that hard AI works. Give us the hard evidence that nanotechnology works and produced operating Drexlerian assembler. Give us the hard evidence that genetic engineering can reliably enhance human intelligence. Give us that hard evidence that claims about people "uploading their minds into computers" are anything more than a foolishly ignorant delusion based on the fantasy that Descartes' mind-body divide is actually real and that there exists some magical intangible Platonic essence called "the mind" that's distinct from and separable from the human body (meaning the human brain). Antonio Damasio, in his book Decartes' Error, has deep-sixed most of the ignorant misconceptions on which hard AI is based. I.e., that there exists some magical fluid called "mind" separate from the brain; that human thought is primarily logical and rational rather than emotion-based and arising from bodily states; that humans use logic to solve problems, rather than intuition and experience; that thought involves sequences of computations, rather than emotions; that the brain is a mere piece of hardware for a pseudo-computer-program called "the mind." Kurzweil and his followers seem to be aware of none of this. They never mention Damasio's somatic-sensory hypothesis: "Although I cannot tell for certain what sparked my interest in the neural underpinnings of reason, I do know when I became convinced that the traditional views on the nature of rationality could not be correct. I had been advised early in life that sounds decisions came from a cool head ? I had grown up accustomed to thinking that the mechanisms of reason existed in a separate province of the mind, where emotion should not be allowed to intrude, and when I thought of the brain behind that mind, I envisioned separate neural systems for reason and emotion ? But now I had before my eyes the coolest, least emotional, intelligent human being one might imagine, and yet his practical reason was so impaired that it produced, in the wanderings of daily life, a succession of mistakes, a perpetual violcation of what would be considered socially appropriate and personally advantageous. I began writing this book to propose that reason may not be as pure as most of us think it is or wish it were, that emotion and feelings may not be intruders in the bastion of reason at all: they may be enmeshed in its networks, for worse and for better. I wrote this book as my side of a conversation with a curious, intelligent, and wise imaginary friend, who knew little about neuroscience but much about life ? My friend was to learn about the brain and about those mysterious things mental, and I was to gain insights as I struggled to explain my idea of what body, brain, and mind are about." http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/damasio/descartes. html Kurzweil and his followers never discuss the frame problem in AI when they blithely rhadsodize about superhumanly smart silicon intelligences: www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Frame_Problem Kurzweil and his sycophants never discuss the death of a patient in a recent and relatively mild gene therapy attempt when they talk blithely about genetically engineering much larger wholesale transformations of human beings into superhumans: www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/500_gene.html Ray Kurzweil and his toadies just ignore whole bodies of knowledge in order to further their crackpot claims. Show us the hard evidence for Kurzweil's extroarindary claims or shut up. Point us to a list of peer-reviewed articles in scholarly journals providing hard experimental evidence that these technologies do work. Everything else is bullshit. Put up or shut up. Provide hard evidence that the hypothetical technologies touted by Kurzweil actually could do what he claims they could, or stand revealed as an ignorant crackpot and compulsive liar. "Proof" means a peer-reviewed journal article by a reputable scientists reporting verified and repeated experimental results. Everything else is not proof. I'm not interested in anecdotes, or just-so stories, or logical arguments, or elaborate what-if scenarios ? those are the realms in which scientologists and ufologists and other crackpots prefer to operate. Out here in the real world, we require proof before we believe a claim?and the more extraordinary the claim, the more exotraordinary the amount and quality of the evidence required for us to believe it. Ray Kurzweil has made not just one, but many, extraordinary claims. He claims not just that hard AI will produce human-level intelligence, but that it'll happen soon, and go on from there to produce superhuman levels of intelligence. Ray Kurweil claims not just that we'll be able to simulate the human mind in silicon, but that we'll be able to upload our minds into computers, and that it'll happen soon. Ray Kurzweil claims not just that we'll be able to reliably genetically engineer traits like human intelligence which all the evidence shows, if they're heritable at all, must be polygenic and emergent, but that we'll be able to do it soon, and to reliably produce enhanced human capabilities that go far beyond the human, and that this genetic engineering will not have dire side effects like, oh, say, terminal leukemia, or autism, etc. Ray Kurzweil claims not just that we'll be able to overcome molecular stiction and Brownian motion and the bombardment of phonons at the atomic-level to produce working rod-logic molecular computers, but that we'll be able to produce molecular assemblers capable of being reliably programmed and that can tear apart any type of matter and rebuild it into anything we like, and that this will happen soon. This is tantamount not just to claiming that an evil Alien Xenu is responsible for invivible thetans that cause all mental illness?but that Xenu is real and the earth is flat and there's a an alchemical secret to turning lead into gold that anyone can use (and that doesn't involve a cyclotron) and and the earth is hollow and full of Nazis waiting to re-emerge and start WW III and that lizard men from Zeta Reticuli use secret underground entrances to get into the White House, where they plot to convert us all to Rosicrucianism. Sane people demand hard evidence. And when you get the truly wild claims of the kind of Ray Kurzweil has made, we demand not just hard evidnece, but a veritable mountain of bulletproof evidence before we'll believe claims this outlandish. Yet what has Ray Kurzweil and his transhumanist extropian Singularitarian followers given us? Nothing. No hard evidence at all. Just a bunch of PR. Eric Drexler has produced zero scientific research to support his claims, he's just given a bunch of speeches and written some books. Hans Moravec has produced no scientific research showing that his "bush robots" are possible ? he's just written some books and given some interviews. Folks, people who only write books and give interviews about fabulous future developments aren't scientists, they're called "science fiction authors." Science fiction is not reality. Don't confuse the two. Have transhumanist extropians like Kurzweil and Moravec and Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow given us even the level of hard evidence in support of their claims that we would demand to convict a single person of murder in court? Nope. They haven't even given us that. Not even that much evidence. To convict someone of murder in court, we demand forensic evidence and eyewitness testimony, not just tall tales and might-be stories and wild guesses. How much hard forensic evidence have we seen that hard AI will fulfill its many promises? Zero. How much eyewitness testimony have we heard for working Drexlerian assemblers and mind uploading and genetic engineering that produces superhumanly smart people? None. So we haven't even gotten a minimal level of hard evidence, comparable to what you'd demand to convict someone in court of murder, out of Ray Kurzweil and his Singularitarians, in support of their outlandish end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it Singularity predictions. Yet any sensible person would demand far more and far better evidence than you'd demand just to convinct someone of murder, in order to get us to believe their extraordinary transhumanist claims and uploading minds and creating supermen from DNA tweaks. After all, people commit murder every day. Murder is commonplace ? compared to mind uploading. Murder is quotidian - compared to creating a superhumanly smart computer. We see murders all the time, we read about them daily, we hear about them on the news. No one has ever seen a superhumanly smart computer. No one has ever shown a person uploading his mind into a computer. No one has ever genetically engineered a superhumanly smart human being. And yet Ray Kurzweil and his transhumanist Singularitarians expect us to believe their much more fantastic claims with much LESS evidence than a sensible rational person would demand to convict a defendant in court of the far more ordinary and vastly more credible crime of murder. Does any of this ring a bell? Does anyone smell a rat? Doesn't anyone see the scam that's going on here? I want hard evidence for transhumanism and the alleged Singularity ? not baseless assertions. I want to see working computer programs?not just-so stories. I want to see actual functioning robots that don't bang into walls and that can recognize the difference between a dog and a volleyball?not just wild claims. I want to see a functioning AI program that does real-language translation without appallingly stupid and shockingly obvious errors, like turning the motto "Out of sight, out of mind," into "Blind and insane," or mistranslating "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" into "The liquor is good but the meat is rotten." I want to see a working genetic engineering vector that reliably makes a rat 200% smarter ? not just the sequencing of the rat genome. I want to see a working Drexlerian assembler that can rip apart a spoon and turn it into a miniature Sterling engine. Show it to me. Let me see it working. There are no such AI programs or robots or genetic engineering vectors or nanotech assemblers.. There is no such hard evidence for Kurzweil's wild claims. After 50-plus years of sustained effort by the smartest people on earth, there has been ZERO progress in these areas. In the article "There's Plenty Of Room at the Bottom," in 1959, physicist Richard Feynman largely anticipated K. Eric Drexler's ideas from his 1987 Engines Of Creation. In the 50 years since Feynman gave his lecture, we've seen zero progress in creating anything like what Feynman talked about. No molecular machines capable of tearing apart molecules and rebuilding 'em to spec. No Drexlerian assemblers. No programmable virus-sized machines. No atomic-scale rod-logic computers. None. Zilch. Zip. Diddly. Bupkiss. Nada. Zippo. Nothing. Claim I'm stupid or lying? Great. Show us the proof. Let us see the hard evidence. Put up or shut up. Pay attention, folks. Notice the scam here. Every single objection to skeptical requests for evidence of transhumanist Singularitarian predictions gets met with the exact same type of reasoning used by ufologists and scientologists and Bigfoot fancier. Ufologists claim not enough research has been done on UFOS and that's why there's no evidence for alien abductions ? Ray Kurzweil claims not enough research has been done on AI and nanotech and genetic engineering, and that's why there's no hard evidence for superhumanly smart computers and genetically-engineered supermen and mind uploading and Drexlerian nanomachines that can rip apart matter at the atomic level and rebuild it atom by atom. Exact same type of reasoning as ufologists. Bigfoot enthusiasts claim it hasn't been long enough to give us evidence of Bigfoot's existence, but that we'll see lots of evidence real soon now. Ray Kurzweil makes the exact same claim ? "it's early days yet in AI research, we haven't been at it long enough to give us proof of the inevitable triumph of superhuman hard AI"?the exact same argument as the Bigfoot crackpots. Scientologists claim people who don't see dramatic cures for their mental problems need to spend more money ? Ray Kurzweil and the AI and nanotch crackpots also say that we haven't seen dramatic new results like superhumanly smart computers and mind uploading because we need to spend more money. And, just like the Scientologists, no matter how much money we spend on AI and nanotech, it's never enough. We always need to spend more money. More and more and more money, and never any results. And what's the answer to any skeptic who objects? "You need to spend more money." Just like Scientology. Psychic "researchers" can never provide us with a definitive point at which a sensible person can conclude "ESP is bullshit." No, they tell us we just have to keep spending money on their fruitless experiments that never produce results, we just have to keep supporting their failed psychic research forever and ever, amen. Same thing with Ray Kurzweil and his crew ? they can never provide us with a single experiment, which, if it fails, means hard AI is dead. They can never give us a single condition under which we could conclude that Drexlerian nanotech is a degenerating research program and must be abandoned. No, just like the psychic crackpots, Ray Kurweil and his crew continually demand more and more money for their failed AI efforts, more and dead-end research with no results, forever and ever, and no matter how unbroken the string of failures, they can never accept any evidence as being sufficient to disprove their claims ofr superhumanly smart computers and genetically engineered supermen and mind uploading. After 50 years of concentrated effort by the greatest geniuses on earth, the best AI programs today still get fed a sentence like "The astronomer married a really hot star" and STILL can't answer "What does the word `hot' mean in that sentence?" The finest AI programs today get fed a sentence like "Mary saw a puppy in the window and wanted it," and they still can't answer the simple question: "Which one did Mary want ? the puppy, or the window?" If you believe Kurzweil's bullshit and you've swallowed the Singularitarian Kool-Aid, great ? show us computer programs that can correctly answer the above questions. Otherwise, shut up, because you're spouting ignorant tripe. -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robotact at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 21:53:32 2007 From: robotact at gmail.com (Vladimir Nesov) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 00:53:32 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I usually limit extraordinary claims to saying that: 1) brain is not magic 2) it should be possible to create a functionally equivalent gizmo in silicon, for example by modeling it on required level of detail, although it won't be easy, and nobody claims that it is or that there is a great progress in this direction 2a) probably there's a simpler architecture that results in equivalently powerful functional result (like device being able to generate scientific papers, like human scientists do), but which is easier to engineer 3) once it's achieved, it will work faster, because brain is an intrinsically slower substrate; as a result, produced in sufficient quantity, it will be able to deliver 1000 years of technical progress in a year, which is HUGE. -- Vladimir Nesov mailto:robotact at gmail.com From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 22:46:34 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:46:34 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The reality of our science future In-Reply-To: <472F4EC0.10400@lightlink.com> References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> <472F4EC0.10400@lightlink.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/07, Richard Loosemore wrote: > > Michio Kaku's new documentary: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7078679.stm > > A typical example of the "Everything just the same, but WOW look at the > shiny gizmos!!" vision of the future. > I've just watched episode 1 of the series. It was pretty much all about how AI will radically change our present world in the the near future. He started with 'ubiquitous computing' where everything around us will have AI embedded in it. Then set off on a world tour of science labs. Asimo got a lot of attention. Even Eliezer Yudkowsky had a quick sound bite. Human enhancement, with brain chips and organ replacements was discussed. The one thing he didn't mention (in this first episode) was self-improving AI and the Singularity. He did mention the possibility of AI becoming more intelligent than humans, so maybe future episodes will give more detail. A good science frontiers program for the interested layman. Worth watching. BillK From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 23:10:21 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:10:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711051710.21611.kanzure@gmail.com> On Monday 05 November 2007 15:53, Vladimir Nesov wrote: > 2a) probably there's a simpler architecture that results in > equivalently powerful functional result (like device being able to > generate scientific papers, like human scientists do), but which is > easier to engineer We already have stuff like the automatic comp sci paper generator: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/ But that's a long shot from technically relevant scientific writing. - Bryan From robotact at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 23:21:56 2007 From: robotact at gmail.com (Vladimir Nesov) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 02:21:56 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <200711051710.21611.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> <200711051710.21611.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, this analogy occurred to me when I wrote that, still people like to say that "we don't know what intelligence is, so how do you know that this thing you engineered is as intelligent as humans?". It's interesting what kind of papers would be possible to generate if effort comparable to that of Loebner Prize competitors were to be spent on such task... Chicken chicken. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_-1d9OSdk On 11/6/07, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Monday 05 November 2007 15:53, Vladimir Nesov wrote: > > 2a) probably there's a simpler architecture that results in > > equivalently powerful functional result (like device being able to > > generate scientific papers, like human scientists do), but which is > > easier to engineer > > We already have stuff like the automatic comp sci paper generator: > http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/ > > But that's a long shot from technically relevant scientific writing. > > - Bryan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Vladimir Nesov mailto:robotact at gmail.com From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 6 03:06:01 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:06:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Yudkowsky's reply (was: Minsky's Transcript) In-Reply-To: <47248E83.50704@lineone.net> Message-ID: <5504A6F0BE5048108F8BFAF35BB36598@Catbert> Ben wrote, > > Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > > > I agree with Marvin that > ... > > Although all these professions have to be integrated on the team to > > prevent the technology from doing bad things. > > Isn't that a bit of a pessimistic (and anti-extropic) viewpoint? > > I can't help notice that the way that people say things not only reveals > their attitudes, it also affects how other people form theirs. > > The implication here is that technology does bad things. Yet, we're all > about technology doing good things. Amazingly good things. > > So, how about ".. to help ensure that the technology does good things"? > Do you think that's an improvement? Not really. Technology can do good things, bad things, or both. It is very important to make sure it does not do bad things. Making sure it does good things is not enough. From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Tue Nov 6 03:07:31 2007 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:07:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've taken notice lately how Singularitarians, Extropians and Transhumanists have somehow been grouped together, was this intended by the groups? I have read every post available on the Extropy list, The WTA list, sl4 list, overcoming bias blog, the Singularity Blog, (amongst many others) and I hadn't ever thought that everybody was like and grouped together. I honestly enjoy reading many different views and ideas of many of the contributors on each list and I learn quite a lot. I will be honest and say I probably wouldn't make for a really good Singularitarian:) I suppose that my lack of interest in building an AI stems from being worried about the consequences such technology could create yet I still believe that one day these issues will need to be dealt if ever such technology should be made available. My confusion lies is within the realm of Transhumanism. I do have questions regarding what technology will become and how it will used but I also have some concerns for the real issues that are happening at this present moment. Issues such as child pornography on the internet, sites that promote recluse and put children in harms way. As an artist I worry about DVD and CD fraud and unlawful downloads. I think of privacy issues and wonder how ignorant people really are in regards to there own computer. Please don't get me wrong, I have the highest regards for technology that allows me to grow and become a better person, technology has allowed me to expand in ways I never knew possible but there are many more questions I have before I fully understand the realm of Transhumanism. I understand why most critiques haven't taken the time to try and understand it and I'm not even too sure what category (if there is one) I fit into but I am still at this point a believer in many senses to the many ideas and thoughts that have been brought up on the Extropy List as well as the WTA list, so thank you! I have been thinking lately at starting a blog called Goosebumps. I was thinking that maybe if people had a different approach to understanding Transhumanism they would more than likely want to be part of it. I have some ideas but would be in need of help in finding out what are the core ideas of Transhumanism from those that are interested. Please keep in mind that you need not refer me to lectures, papers or any other source of information stemming from the above categories as I've probably read it. I am looking for honest philosophies that encourage change and positive memes and that will educate the public and help me to grow. Please feel free to e-mail with ideas and thoughts, I would greatly appreciate it. If you have no ideas you could start by telling me what does Transhumanism mean to you? Thank you Anna:) Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 05:16:39 2007 From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:16:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've wondered some of those things myself. I'm dubious even of the proposition of strong AI and really see the future more in line of cyborgism. I also wonder about the emphasis on life extension and immortality--the threat of immortality is what disturbs me about Christianity. And I think if you can live extremely well, the duration hardly matters. Yet I still see myself as something of a transhumanist, though perhaps a different kind than many of you are. But what I see as central to transhumanism is the idea that humanity itself is something we can lay our hands on and alter. From every other way of thinking, this proposition is frightening, heretical, unnatural, reckless, foolish or nihilistic; so if I don't belong with the transhumanists then I belong no where. I'm also not as confident that posthumanity is going to happen as many of you are--it's definitely something that we need to make some effort in order to happen. All I know is that something *must* happen: change or perish is the only commandment of nature. Consider this the morale of the TV show "Heroes" in a nutshell. Or the other form of this commandment: "Don't be stupid. Better yet, be smart!" And look up the definition of "stupid" in the dictionary--it's primary meaning isn't about intelligence. I also don't think that transhumanity is just about entertaining ourselves, gaining abilities for the "oh cool" factor or for some vague idea of the "good life". It's not a luxury but a necessity. I don't know--do I need to create my own branch of transhumanism? ;) *Kevin* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 05:27:14 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 23:27:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [SL4] [WTA] Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711052327.14339.kanzure@gmail.com> Some thoughts and comments. Open to anybody's reply. > As for nanotechnology and hard AI, those fields have run into brick > walls so complete that there's no more point in discussing those > delusions than in debating the claims of scientologists or > alchemists. "Brick walls so complete that there's no point" - then why write this at all? It would be much more useful to write a review paper (i.e., doing) to show the many (as I am sure) thousands of tactics that have failed. That would be useful- I might have to do this myself. Would anybody be interested in helping me compile "failed AI techniques" and "failed nanotech" ? > No one knows what intelligence is or how to measure it ? and the > evidence for that failure is overwhelming: It is interesting to go through your day and not use the "intelligence" concept. Try this out, you might not be missing much. > just starting to reesarch these areas." The exact same kinds of vague > hand-waving you get when you confront ufologists and ask them for > proof of their wild claims. When men go out to explore the wild frontiers and make their destinies, many do not come back; the wild consumes them. > If you can debunk the assertion that these technologies don't work > and haven't worked and can't work, great?do it. Do it now. Do it > right now. Give us the hard evidence that hard AI works. Give us the > hard evidence that nanotechnology works and produced operating > Drexlerian assembler. Give us the hard evidence that genetic > engineering can reliably enhance human intelligence. Give us that > hard evidence that claims about people "uploading their minds into > computers" are anything more than a foolishly ignorant delusion "Do it now" deserves repeating. Do it now. Do it now. Go join a graduate school, purchase access to as many scientific journals as you can handle, find labs or make your own. (Take me on for the ride, too.) > Yet what has Ray Kurzweil and his transhumanist extropian > Singularitarian followers given us? Nothing. Just a bunch of PR. Maybe we need another type of PR: the rise of the transhumanist-scientist/programmer. "Any PR is bad PR." So maybe we should leave it at that and move on. > I want hard evidence for transhumanism What? Is this really an issue? I do not understand. Transhumanism, the commitment to self-creation, is more of a mindset. Unless there is something that I am missing? > Otherwise, shut up, because you're spouting ignorant tripe. We need to drown them out with more technical works. Hopefully the internet/the-Signal will not become poisoned with this 'ignorant tripe'. - Bryan From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 06:50:49 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 22:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Aubrey's "Ending Aging" mentioned on SNL last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <868107.67963.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, those New York City comedy writers from SNL are a pretty informed lot. lol I'm amazed they didn't make a crack about Rip Van Winkle since Aubrey has such a long beard. I fondly remember the parody ad they did about cryonics as a means of dealing with bad breath, dandruff and other minor health complaints. John Grigg George Dvorsky wrote: There was a gag on Saturday Night Live's newscast last night that made mention of Aubrey's latest book, Ending Aging. In the background was a screenshot of the book and the quotes, "Aging is a disease." The newscaster (Amy Poehler) quipped that Aubrey was no crackpot, and she could prove it by showing his picture. She then displayed the 'photo of Aubrey,' which was a poindexterish infant wearing a monocle. I nearly fell off my chair in surprise. George _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksei at iki.fi Tue Nov 6 07:48:20 2007 From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:48:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1db0b2da0711052348p6b1653adt2556d2eb1d00ade3@mail.gmail.com> On 11/5/07, Michael Anissimov wrote: > On my blog, someone anonymous posted a long rebuttal > (http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=606#comment-102290) > of Kurzweil's ideas that I think some people may be interested in. Note > that just because I post it doesn't mean I agree or disagree with any > specific claims therein. Enjoy! Wow. When there isn't experimental evidence of a hypothetical piece of technology having been built and working, the technology is crackpottery. I wish someone had told me earlier that *every* piece of technology that isn't built yet, is crackpottery! End all funding for engineering research! Don't believe the crackpot claims that next year new computers, mobile phones, cars etc will be available! Also I'm sad to learn that Antonio Damasio has made some really foolish comments on the topic of AI (assuming what the poster says he has said is true -- this might not be so). On the topic of auditory systems having been reverse-engineered, I think it's correct to say that that hasn't been done (to the fullest) yet. So if the poster is correct when claiming that Kurzweil says otherwise, then Kurzweil would be wrong here. But I don't currently know whether Kurzweil has claimed that the auditory system has been fully reverse-engineered. -- Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:19:35 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:19:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711060119l7351d378g87dbd21bb54c39c8@mail.gmail.com> I know why I was not able to post my comment to K5 with a new account: they now ask new users for a one-time 5$ payment to enable comments. So I posted from an old account that I made a few years ago. Some others posted, in particular Eugen's comment is very good. I wish to encourage everyone to post THIS IS BS to K5. In particular we should make it clear that "nearly all Transhumanists are either Neocons and Neocon influenced" is BS, and "Since 99.5% of Transhumanists are white males, they don't care about any of these issues" is BS. So please, if you have a not too recent K5 account, go to http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 and say loud and clear THIS IS BS Of course our friend Dale makes a valiant attempt at a defense saying something like: yes, the K5 statements are perhaps not entirely correct, BUT blah blah blah. http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-on-kuro5shin-discussion.html With enough clever words and enough hair-splitting one can always hope to prove that black is white and BS is wisdom, but some simple and clear thinking usually shows that black is black and BS is BS. G. On Nov 5, 2007 9:07 AM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 > > worth noting the typical crap about "Since 99.5% of Transhumanists are > white males, they don't care about any of these issues". Of course > when you tell them that even if you are a white male you DO care about > all of these issues, they will not believe you. This is just PC crap. > Sorry my friend the author, I am a transhumanist and I am NOT a > neocon. Sorry if that does not fit into your dumb black and white > worldview. > > The author also shows the typical lack of appreciation for complexity. > Aging research is bad because it takes effort away from other things. > This is BS. If those who dedicated their energy to making the first > fore had followed the dictates of the PC majority that certainly > existed also at those times, we would still be eating raw meat. > Humanity has progressed so far because a wide range of people, each > with her or his particular interests and sensibilities, have dedicated > their energy to a wide range of problems. > > I wanted to leave this comment to the article but the Kuro5hin system > does not let me in (perhaps it understands that I am a bad > transhumanist neocon). Try to leave comments. > > G. > From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 09:48:29 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:48:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711060148i2fb892d1pe7bc046e5de29e58@mail.gmail.com> Anna, this is indeed the core question, but I am afraid you will get many different answers. Let me try to formulate my interpretation of the core ideas of Transhumanism with simple words: - What makes persons happy is good, what makes persons unhappy is no good. - Persons means any conscious entity: humans, posthumans, AIs... - Happy means being healthy, optimist, not scared of inevitable negative outcomes, enjoying one's physical and mental life... - Having more options to freely choose from is good, not having options to freely choose from is no good. - The well being of concrete persons is muuuuuch more important than dusty abstract ideas. In particular we do not give a damn for capitalized God, Nature, Ethics... - Also, we don't care too much for other capitalized dusty words like Liberalism, Socialism etc. In this sense we are upwingers. (you know that there is much disagreement here). - We acknowledge some limitations as something inevitable at this moment in time, but we do not acknowledge ANY limitations as inherently good. Limits are barriers to leave behind when one is ready. - Clarke's 3rd Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Shakespeare's "There are more things in heavens and earth..." - Immortality is not a philosophical problem, it is an engineering problem. - Technology enabled human enhancement is a viable path to a better world. G. On Nov 6, 2007 4:07 AM, Anna Taylor wrote: > I have been thinking lately at starting a blog called > Goosebumps. I was thinking that maybe if people had a > different approach to understanding Transhumanism they > would more than likely want to be part of it. I have > some ideas but would be in need of help in finding out > what are the core ideas of Transhumanism from those > that are interested. Please keep in mind that you > need not refer me to lectures, papers or any other > source of information stemming from the above > categories as I've probably read it. I am looking for > honest philosophies that encourage change and positive > memes and that will educate the public and help me to > grow. Please feel free to e-mail with ideas and > thoughts, I would greatly appreciate it. If you have > no ideas you could start by telling me what does > Transhumanism mean to you? > > Thank you > Anna:) From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 6 09:44:55 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 04:44:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Kurzweil critique References: <51ce64f10711051319j3dfac60br2b83403683df13d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301c82059$bb282e50$02034e0c@MyComputer> Michael Anissimov Wrote: > We don't have a ghost of a clue what intelligence is Well it?s true, we don?t have a good definition of intelligence and I doubt we ever will, but that is a small matter because we have something much more important, examples. Intelligence is what smart people do. > Richard Feynman had measured IQ of 120, much much >lower than Marilyn Vos Savant or most of hte pople in MENSA. Is it really surprising to learn that the most complex thing in the universe, intelligence, can not be satisfactorily described with a scalar when even something as simple as wind needs a vector? > Even if we did know, there's no evidence we can enhance >it or replicate it. Exquisite premium grade extra virgin nonsense. You obviously have a computer but if you really believe the above statement why on earth did you buy one? > AI is brain-dead" and "AI has hit a brick wall Just a very few years ago nearly everyone would say that the ability to play a good game of chess was an excellent example of intelligence, but not today, today intelligence is whatever a computer can?t do YET; and so using that definition you conclude AI has made no progress. > Show us a working automated translation program that reliably takes in > natural language and reliably spits back out idiomatic English without > grammatical or semantic errors. That will happen when the computer fully understands what it is asked to translate, and 20 minutes after that the Singularity will happen. But I admit we are a hell of a long way from that point, hell Britney Spears may be approaching middle age by then. > Give us the hard evidence that nanotechnology works Well life works, admittedly it?s a crude version of Nanotechnology but it's about as good as you could hope for considering that it was invented by random mutation and natural selection. I have a hunch intelligence can do better, one hell of a lot better. I should add that the fact that the area human beings are able to successfully engineer is cut in half ever 18 months gives me a hint that Nanotechnology is making progress. One hell of a lot of progress actually. > Antonio Damasio, in his book Decartes' Error, has deep-sixed most of the > ignorant misconceptions on which hard AI is based. I.e., that there exists > some magical fluid called "mind" separate from the brain There is nothing magical or metaphysical or even very interesting about it, in fact the distinction it is all rather mundane; brain is a noun, mind is a verb, and I John K Clark am an adjective. > In the 50 years since Feynman gave his lecture, we've seen zero > progress in creating anything like what Feynman talked about. What an astronomically foolish thing to say! > Why would superhumanly smart computers even bother to interact with us Beats me, but what has that got to do with the price of eggs? > Give us that hard evidence that claims about people "uploading their minds > into computers" are anything more than a foolishly ignorant delusion based > on the fantasy that Descartes' mind-body divide is actually real and that > there exists some magical intangible Platonic essence called "the mind" > that's distinct from and separable from the human body (meaning the > human brain). Oh dear, it appears you are yet another of those meat is sacred people, that is to say atoms are sacred people, that is to say very silly people. John K Clark From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 12:15:32 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 06:15:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711060148i2fb892d1pe7bc046e5de29e58@mail.gmail.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470a3c520711060148i2fb892d1pe7bc046e5de29e58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 03:48, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > - What makes persons happy is good, what makes persons unhappy is no > good. What does transhumanism have to do with happiness/unhappiness, good/bad? Maybe as another philosophical layer to take up, yes, but at the core? - Bryan From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 12:22:46 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:22:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470a3c520711060148i2fb892d1pe7bc046e5de29e58@mail.gmail.com> <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/07, Bryan Bishop wrote: > What does transhumanism have to do with happiness/unhappiness, good/bad? > Maybe as another philosophical layer to take up, yes, but at the core? > 'Cause if you have a movement that makes people unhappy, you might as well give up now and do something else. Similarly if you have a movement that does bad things (or what people perceive as bad things), again you will get nowhere and may even be banned / made illegal. BillK From James.Hughes at trincoll.edu Tue Nov 6 14:41:26 2007 From: James.Hughes at trincoll.edu (Hughes, James J.) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:41:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711060119l7351d378g87dbd21bb54c39c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520711050007ma5ed9f3k8d9d768b79a6b088@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711060119l7351d378g87dbd21bb54c39c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CF6A92CB628444FB3C757618CD2803905FB483F@exbe1.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu> > "nearly all > Transhumanists are either Neocons and Neocon influenced" is > BS, and "Since 99.5% of Transhumanists are white males, they > don't care about any of these issues" is BS. For those who want to respond to this nonsense with facts you can review the actual demography and political diversity of the WTA in this survey of our membership: http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/wtasurvey2005/ PDF: http://transhumanism.org/resources/survey2005.pdf We're working on a new survey of the membership. If you have things you'd like us to ask let me know. As to gender-bias, we were 90% male in 2003 and 2005. Hopefully that is slowly changing. But I think its important to note that many progressive social movements that our critics presumably endorse have been or are also male-dominated. As our movement matures and becomes more associated with (female-ish) advocacy for health and well-being for all, as opposed to (male-ish) technophilia, this should change. We are also very white, and that is slowly changing. We don't ask about race (and I don't think we should) but given that our membership correlates with Net access, and Net access is highest in Europe and North America, our ethnic representativeness will improves along with growing Net access in the developing world. The puzzling thing has been why we have attracted so few members in S. Korea and Japan, where attitudes are in many ways tilted in our favor, and they have high Net access. Here there is some good news, the rapid growth of Chinese membership. Between 1998 the end of 2006 only twenty Chinese signed up with the WTA. Since last Spring 71 Chinese have signed up. That's still not many (0.07/million compared to Finland's 42 members per million) but its progress. You can also point out that we have had chapters in Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda. As to our politics, only 3-4% self-identify as "conservative" (including "Christian Dem" and "far right"), 22% identify as some variety of libertarian, and fully 39% identify with some label on the Left. Of course conservatism is in the eye of the beholder, and if one is sufficiently postmodern facts like these don't really matter. However it would be interesting to meet an intelligent "neo-con" H+. I wonder what positions they would endorse? Sending US Marines to create regime change in the Vatican? Cynically collaborating with social conservatives that they despise in order to defend Big Pharma from the Luddites? Oops, there is Glenn Harlan Reynolds - please note to people that he never joined. J. Hughes From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Nov 6 15:49:15 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:49:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071106154918.UZQN4050.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 09:07 PM 11/5/2007, Anna wrote: >I've taken notice lately how Singularitarians, >Extropians and Transhumanists have somehow been >grouped together, was this intended by the groups? Extropy is the central/original philosophy of transhumanism and those who call themselves extropian are in fact transhumanists. Not all transhumanists are extropian, -- their "knickers get in the way." :-) * best, Natasha *"The Thomas Crown Affair" (McTiernan 1999) Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Nov 6 16:13:47 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:13:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470a3c520711060148i2fb892d1pe7bc046e5de29e58@mail.gmail.com> <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071106161350.NONZ3966.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 06:15 AM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >On Tuesday 06 November 2007 03:48, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > - What makes persons happy is good, what makes persons unhappy is no > > good. > >What does transhumanism have to do with happiness/unhappiness, good/bad? >Maybe as another philosophical layer to take up, yes, but at the core? I don't know, but in intellectual (including the creative process) activity, human beings most nearly approach a state of happiness. So, since transhumanism was developed out of intelligent/critical thinking, you could approximate ... as an add on: "The ancient Greeks had a very different perspective on happiness. Aristotle spoke about achieving eudaimonia, which is roughly translated into happiness. "Eudaimonia is not an emotional state; it is more about being all that you can, fulfilling your potential. The idea is that by living in a way that reaches your full potential you bloom or flourish and so display the best version of you that you can be. "Aristotle thought that the practice of virtues would equate to happiness, in the sense of being all you could be. By virtues, Aristotle meant the act of achieving balance and moderation. "He strongly disagreed with Socrates who knowledge would automatically lead to the right action. Aristotle argued that the greatest misdeed was to know the right course, but fail to do it. " (anon) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 6 16:37:38 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:37:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/07, Kevin H wrote: > I also don't > think that transhumanity is just about entertaining ourselves, gaining > abilities for the "oh cool" factor or for some vague idea of the "good > life". It's not a luxury but a necessity. > > I don't know--do I need to create my own branch of transhumanism? ;) Take heart, you're not entirely alone. - Jef From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 22:55:07 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:55:07 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> On Tuesday 06 November 2007 06:22, BillK wrote: > 'Cause if you have a movement that makes people unhappy, you might as > well give up now and do something else. To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. We need not be human forever-- but at the moment, yes, we still have emotions to play with. (I think this also covers Natasha's post with the nice reference to Aristotle & happiness). - Bryan From jonkc at att.net Wed Nov 7 06:14:18 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 01:14:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> Next month the movie "The Golden Compass" opens, it will be one of the most expensive movies ever made and is based on Philip Pullman's excellent book. The Catholic League and other religious groups are all upset and calling for a boycott. It's not hard to figure out what they are so worried about, I have never in my life read a book more hostile to religion. It's supposed to be a novel for children but there are damn few adult novelists that would dare make God senile and the chief villain of the book. It's said the movie cut way back on the anti religious elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. John K Clark From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:15:56 2007 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 00:15:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2007 1:07 AM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/11/4/132937/255 snip It is worth keeping in mind why people do anything. Genes build brains with particular motivations. These genes were selected during the millions of years our ancestors lived as hunter-gatherers that built brains with inclinations to do things that improved the genes chances of being present in the next generation. High on the list was gaining higher social status. In that environment, high status led to improved reproductive success. In short form, successful hunters got more nooky. Status was and is (to a first approximation) the integral of the amount of attention the person received. So people have been shaped to be rewarded by activities they find gains them attention. Cults take vicious advantage of this human psychological feature. It's what motivates people to post, here, on kuro5hin and to take stands that gain them a lot of response. A substantial fraction of people can't distinguish between sense and nonsense or between positive and negative attention especially in an all text media. So when you see these kinds of things, it is sometimes worth taking a step back and looking at the root cause for the behavior. And perhaps considering if you want to reward them with attention or ignore them and do something more productive. Keith Henson. From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:01:05 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:01:05 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Self improvement versus creating a non-eudaemonic dystopia Message-ID: <944947f20711062301x2268c923nde03cb454c6d5d80@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am a newcomer to the extropy chat list but have been lurking at other singularity/transhumanist mailing lists for about a year and was occasionally posting as well. The following text is from my blog - www.jame5.com - where I recently published my book on the Singularity (free download) and share my thoughts on the singularity, evolution, human nature friendly AI and everything in between ;-) Would appreciate your comments: Reading Nick Bostrom 's paper on the future of human evolution was fascinating. In essence he makes the point that continuing to increase fitness will result in a dystopian world when measured with present human values and I agree. From the perspective of a present day human the evolution towards non-eudaemonic agents as Bostrom puts it seems like a scenario one has evolved to dislike. Since we have evolved to regard as good what has increased fitness in our ancestors we would have to fail to see anything unrecognizable human as a desirable future state. But is the deep desire to improve oneself not just as well part of human nature? Where but to something posthuman shall such self improvement lead if we for ever regard what is desirable from our current perspective? Self improvement can be seen as a series of gradual changes. Consider the following scenario. A person approaches the matter of self improvement in a way to ensure that every improved following version of his self will be desirable from the unimproved version's point of view. How desirable will the 100th improvement look from the point of view of the original? How about the 1 millionth? No matter at what improvement step the original will draw the line - at some point the improved version will turn into something that is unrecognizable, incomprehensible yes even scary to the original. How do you picture the encounter between an early rodent - one of our direct ancestors a few 10 million years ago - and a modern day human. The rodent would probably flee in panic and some humans likely as well. But would the rodent lament over the sad abandonment of gnawing on stones? After all it is enjoyable and keeps ones teeth in shape. Or would it - having the full understanding of a human being - appreciate that other concepts, worries and habits are what a human holds dear in modern times? Which perspective take priority? "Of cause the human one!" is what one would expect from the anthropic chauvinists' camp . But would the one millionth improved version as discussed earlier not argue the same for its manifestation? Reconciling the desire to satisfy the ever changing current representation of an individual with the desire for self improvement and the implications for the future of human evolution becomes the challenge that needs to be addressed. Bostrom does so by suggesting what he calls a Singleton - an entity policing continued human evolution to maintain the status quo. In the context of my friendly AI theory I suggest a similar approach to Bostrom's Singleton however honoring Ben Goertzel 's 'voluntary, joyous, growth' concept and thus allowing for the possibility of continuous self improvement. Specifically I argue for a friendly AI to A) change the environment(s) humans are in to increase an individual's fitness as opposed to changing the genetic/memetic makeup of and individual to adopt it better to it's environment. B) reconcile our desire for self improvement with the problematic results discussed above by making growth optional as well as rewarding. Kind regards, Stefan -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:42:37 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:42:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <470a3c520711062342y4f7bd1d9t9f7cf91789e49ee2@mail.gmail.com> Though I am not a religious-like militant of atheism, if "Catholic League and other religious groups are all upset and calling for a boycott" I think we should go watch the movie en masse and recommend it to everyone. G. On Nov 7, 2007 7:14 AM, John K Clark wrote: > Next month the movie "The Golden Compass" opens, it will be one of the > most expensive movies ever made and is based on Philip Pullman's > excellent book. The Catholic League and other religious groups are all > upset and calling for a boycott. It's not hard to figure out what they are > so worried about, I have never in my life read a book more hostile to > religion. It's supposed to be a novel for children but there are damn few > adult novelists that would dare make God senile and the chief villain > of the book. It's said the movie cut way back on the anti religious > elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant > atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and > remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed > to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 07:44:48 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:44:48 +0800 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <944947f20711062344r168f9e56x515862c3d4eeba08@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 7, 2007 2:14 PM, John K Clark wrote: > elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant > atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and > remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed > to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. > Do I understand your view correctly that you support Pullman because you agree that since the existence of a God can not be proven it is not justified to hold religious believes? I would argue that truth content is not the only justification for holding a particular believe... -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 10:36:33 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:36:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/7/07, Keith Henson wrote: > It is worth keeping in mind why people do anything. > > > So people have been shaped to be rewarded by activities they find > gains them attention. Cults take vicious advantage of this human > psychological feature. > > It's what motivates people to post, here, on kuro5hin and to take > stands that gain them a lot of response. A substantial fraction of > people can't distinguish between sense and nonsense or between > positive and negative attention especially in an all text media. > > So when you see these kinds of things, it is sometimes worth taking a > step back and looking at the root cause for the behavior. And perhaps > considering if you want to reward them with attention or ignore them > and do something more productive. > Good post. This accords with the 'Don't feed the trolls!' motto. But the problem in human affairs is that if the silent majority don't make their disapproval known, then the lie goes by default. Politicians rely on their publicity machine outgunning the inertia of most people, so that their propaganda becomes the assumed worldview. Lies and injustice have to be opposed. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 11:07:15 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 22:07:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <944947f20711062344r168f9e56x515862c3d4eeba08@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> <944947f20711062344r168f9e56x515862c3d4eeba08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/11/2007, Stefan Pernar wrote: > On Nov 7, 2007 2:14 PM, John K Clark wrote: > > > elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant > > atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and > > remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed > > to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. > > > > Do I understand your view correctly that you support Pullman because you > agree that since the existence of a God can not be proven it is not > justified to hold religious believes? I would argue that truth content is > not the only justification for holding a particular believe... If Christians would come out and admit that they don't decide to believe things on the basis of whether or not they are true, it would simplify matters greatly. -- Stathis Papaioannou From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Nov 7 11:41:04 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:41:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> <015401c82105$7cb8ad50$79034e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <38126.72.236.102.113.1194435664.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > Next month the movie "The Golden Compass" opens, it will be one of the > most expensive movies ever made and is based on Philip Pullman's > excellent book. The Catholic League and other religious groups are all > upset and calling for a boycott. It's not hard to figure out what they are > so worried about, I have never in my life read a book more hostile to > religion. It's supposed to be a novel for children but there are damn few > adult novelists that would dare make God senile and the chief villain > of the book. It's said the movie cut way back on the anti religious > elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant > atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and > remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed > to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. > I am currently reading this book and find it a delightful young people's fantasy/SF adventure story. I've not finished yet, so haven't found the part about God being senile and all. It's funny how our current churches are against this movie, when parts of the book remind me of the rage the protestants felt for the RC church some centuries back. There was plenty of "anti established church" attitude then, and *that* is what I see in this book so far. There is a division, a battle, between one group of people and "the church". At this point, I haven't seen much that's purely "anti religion". Hope to get volume 2 from the library today, or at least this week - these books are popular and hard to come by, they're always checked out. The one I'm reading had to be sent in from another library! Regards, MB From aiguy at comcast.net Wed Nov 7 15:27:34 2007 From: aiguy at comcast.net (aiguy at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:27:34 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass Message-ID: <110720071527.6766.4731D9660008B4EB00001A6E2213528573979A09070E@comcast.net> On Nov 7, 2007 2:14 PM, John K Clark wrote: elements, but even so it should be interesting. Pullman is an militant atheist and is quoted as saying "my books are about killing God"; and remember, this is supposed to be a children's writer! How he managed to get away with this I don't know but Mr. Pullman sir I salute you. Since most people commited to a religion believe in god. I would argue that to speak of killing the figurehead of any belief system is to destined to incite the same hatred and intolerance in it's followers that religions have demonstrated throughout the centuries when pressed into ideological corners. Even though I am agnostic, nothing is more distasteful to me as when I see the members of one belief system antagonizing or trolling for members of another belief system. Since it is unlikely that in the future we will all hold the same belief systems, respect and coexistence of other belief systems should be the first commandment. I also feel that encouraging such topics on the mailing list will create a strong linkage between atheism and transhumanism and can only serve to limit our ranks and potential sources of funding. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Stefan Pernar" Subject: Re: [ExI] The Golden Compass Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 07:45:18 +0000 Size: 687 URL: From benboc at lineone.net Wed Nov 7 21:30:05 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:30:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47322E5D.9090904@lineone.net> Anna asked "what does Transhumanism mean to you?". To me, it means simply that the human condition can and should be improved by the sensible use of technology. What "the human condition", "improved" and "sensible" mean, is up to the individual to decide. ben zed From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 07:33:02 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:33:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711072333r390a167blb914288f12510088@mail.gmail.com> Why? To transcend the bio would permit _choosing_ one's emotions. It is then up to the person concerned to chose whether that means transcending (in the sense of eliminating) emotions or, on the contrary, enhancing some emotional set. I would choose to still experience some emotions, perhaps even in a stronger form, provided the rational I remains in control. On Nov 6, 2007 11:55 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 06:22, BillK wrote: > > 'Cause if you have a movement that makes people unhappy, you might as > > well give up now and do something else. > > To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. We need not be > human forever-- but at the moment, yes, we still have emotions to play > with. (I think this also covers Natasha's post with the nice reference > to Aristotle & happiness). > > - Bryan > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From andres at thoughtware.tv Thu Nov 8 08:39:54 2007 From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 04:39:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Thoughtware.TV: Thoughts on the video 'How Geeks and Hippies are Going to Save Our World' Message-ID: Have you seen this video yet? http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/966 It is a humorous video by Leo Dirac. This talk is form Feb 13 2007, added by patricia over at Thoughtware.TV The talk was a pretty humorous but also serious. I liked it and laughed quite a bit. *Here are my thoughts on it:* Leo must really know his audience. I'd skip the talk on any form of 'salvation' when talking to people about transhumanism. Enhancement great, happiness yes, progress excellent, adaptation, definitely....but...Salvation?...erm. That term doesn't seem right in there. I also don't understand why he says: "I believe that in the next thousand years something is going to render our planet uninhabitable to life as we know it.". I assume he bases this belief of his idea of our planet's history of threats and extinctions, plus added threats arising out of our technological advancements. It is true life has gone through hell and back throughout its 3 billion year history on this planet, but yet we're here, in great diversity and numbers. Don't get me wrong, I am not playing down the risks, I just don't *believe* it is inevitable that such events will take place. While I do not have any *faith* they have to ocurr, I can consider the possibilities. It is possible for life and intelligence to prevent things from happening. And even if some of the worse comes to pass, there is a possibility we can contribute to overcoming such difficulties. I do favor uploading, and I'm looking forward to it, but doing so is a choice, and it has to remain that way. All transhumanists should be quick to emphasize that doing so **is not a requirement for salvation*. The word salvation has a lot of theological baggage. I don't think it should have anything to do with transhumanism. ..anyway his view on the inevitability of such an event makes Leo believe it is a moral thing to: "cast off these weak unreliable human bodies transcend to a society of pure thoughts and ideas". Let's not forget even uploads as we conceive them will have to rely on a physical space for computation, regardless of their ability to drift off from computational environment to the next. I cannot yet picture them without limitations. Regardless of backups, uploads as conceived are not yet just 'pure thoughts and ideas'. They will be bound to physical mediums, regardless if they implement distributed computing. If we talk about human minds on earth right now, a human consciousness could be said to be computed in a distributed fashion, via massive neural networks, as a collective, the consciousness is less vulnerable even if some neurons fail, it has its failovers, but it is still extremely vulnerable. So minds will reside in objects at a given moment, regardless whether the shell is biological or not. Our collective biology has given rise to intelligence on this planet. From microorganisms to vast colonies of bacteria, to multi-cellular organisms and conscious beings, it has taken billions of years and much sacrifice for life and intelligence to have made it thus far. Perhaps we, as transhumanists, should not be so quick to wish to "cast-off" or allow biology to meet its end, due to its lack of adaptability in a mechanical driven world. We owe that very precious part of us, our consciousness, to trillions of hard-working cells that have come and died, mutated and suffered and adapted. Collectives that have seen life through the worst of times. Thanks those we are here. If we believe in our intelligent capacity to do good with our technology, there is a possibility biology will still have its role to play. I do not care if Biology turns out to be the weakest link. We should be mindful not to cast-off our predecessors, who in reality are also ourselves. We should also be mindful of our actions as transhumanists, because humans are conscious entities that emerge out of a less capable collective. The actions we might take towards our biological predecessors might set a precedent. Consider this: If we were to so easily discard our biology to continue transcending, it would be awfully ironic if whatever emerges from a potential massively interconnected network of uploads, such as a world wide mind (or a post-Singularity AI) eventually ends up 'casting off' all of us, everything, in order to preserve itself in some better suited shell, without any regard for our well being. We should never allow ourselves to limit the complexity from which we emerge from, in order to transcend, we should embrace it. As intelligent beings, transhumanists must set this as a precedent, not because we have to but because we can. And...if we are to leave a shell behind, such as the biological one we're now considering for uploading, we should take care to give it the tools to continue its progress of evolution and discovery, for it may yet have a role to play in the future. Our care, as far more capable collectives, should be to better care for biological existence than it has done for us, and it has, for billions of years. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 8 15:32:00 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:32:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711060615.32778.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711061655.07445.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071108153202.WRCH20155.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 04:55 PM 11/6/2007, you wrote: >On Tuesday 06 November 2007 06:22, BillK wrote: > > 'Cause if you have a movement that makes people unhappy, you might as > > well give up now and do something else. > >To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. Emotions are a big category with a heck of a lot of biological history. Some are beneficial and some are detrimental. The more we learn about neuroscience the better we can discern which are needed for he benefit and enjoyment of transhumanity. I have talked about refined emotions over the years and this pretty much sums up my views, at the moment anyway. I'm sure Anders or an expert in neuroscience can better explain this, but I'll have a go: Emotions that trigger psychological problems that are abundant in humans, and which professionals in many fields have tried to manage to help people overcome complex and disturbing emotional problems, are what seems to be left-over lower brain functions that we have yet to manage. Emotions that trigger sensorial and cognitive delights are beneficial to humans and transhumans, etc., because they enlighten, inspire, encourage, cause reflections, etc. Emotions that are triggered by first hand experience, or learned experience, are important because they act as warning guides (not to sick you hand in fire, etc.) While it would be beneficial to transcend the emotions that prevent enlightenment, emotions are crucial to our well being. Best, Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 8 17:12:04 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:12:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Soliciting Papers for Workshop on the Broader Implications of AGI Message-ID: <20071108171205.TTK4063.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> >Hi all, > >Just a reminder that we are soliciting papers on >"Sociocultural, Ethical and Futurological Implications of Artificial >General Intelligence" >to be presented at a workshop following the AGI-08 conference in >Memphis (US) in March. > >http://www.agi-08.org/workshop/ > >The submission deadline is about a week from now, but we could let >it slip by a few days >if you ask us nicely. > >We are looking for well-thought-out, well-written contributions that >take into account >the likely realities of AGI technology as it develops. Attendees in >the workshop will >be a mix of academic and industry AI researchers, and individuals >from other walks of life >with an interest in the broader implications of AGI technology. > >Thanks, >Ben Goertzel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 21:46:12 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:46:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Universal Transhumanist Bibliography Message-ID: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> The Associazione Italiana Transumanisti (AIT ) is pleased to announce the immediate public availability, through its Web site, of the first Universal Transhumanist Bibliography. The same is restricted to works published in print and in volume, in any language, but includes links to purchase the books concerned as well as to dedicated Web sites and online versions, if any. The database is splitted in two sections: - Transhumanist books, books on transhumanism, books on technological, philosophical or political issues which are deemed to be crucial to transhumanism; - Books that deal with issues connected or related to transhumanist visions of the future, to technoscientific or cultural evolution and its impact on human societies, and to the posthuman change. The purpose of this effort is to offer a working tool both to transhumanists of any country and persuasion, and to people interested in studying the story, ideas and concerns of the transhumanist movement. Needless to say, the bibliography, even though it already contains 120+ items, cannot aspire to be exhaustive, and is expected to remain forever as a work in progress. Accordingly, all cooperation in its development and updating is heartily welcome, especially for small linguistic areas. Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:11:09 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:11:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598110.98021.qm@web30415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711081411k42e1f17ck905674b07964905c@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2007 4:07 AM, Anna Taylor wrote: > I've taken notice lately how Singularitarians, > Extropians and Transhumanists have somehow been > grouped together, was this intended by the groups? > ... > My confusion lies is within the realm of > Transhumanism. It is hard to offer an ultimate answer to those question (which is just fine, transhumanism being IMHO essentially a Stimmung), but were I to attempt to find an all-encompassing formula, I believe that it would be likely to be something about *radical self-determination* and the exalted freedom that *technological prometheism* is going to offer in this respect. Certainly there may be some tension between your own self-determination and that of others; between individual and collective self-determination; between "wet", biocentric tech orientations and "hard" tech orientations; between priorities given to intensity/enhancement and to duration/longevism; and so forth; and this actually makes for a "populated landscape" of H+ shades and nuances and trends, which is not so bad a thing at the end of the day, if the transhumanist worldview as a whole is actually to replace the dominant range of worldviews and ideologies. Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benboc at lineone.net Thu Nov 8 22:59:46 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:59:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> Bryan Bishop said: > To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. I don't understand this. Can you explain why emotion might be exclusive to biological minds? I'd be prepared to bet that you can't. Is this a manifestation of the "soulless machines" meme? When/if i become post-biological, i plan to have mucho mas soul, emotion, whatever you want to call it, than any biologically-based mind. ben zed From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 23:06:42 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:06:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap (was: Universal Transhumanist Bibliography) In-Reply-To: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711081706.42204.kanzure@gmail.com> For a while now I have been thinking that it would be feasible and useful to construct a "roadmap" of scientific and technological research that (objectively) examines the state of the art in H+ related research fields, whether AI, nano, cryo, neuro, astro, cloning, etc. I have always correlated H+ with open source software and technologies, this being the natural next step out of the many possible steps. I am willing to start the document and throw it up on a wiki somewhere, or maybe use Canonizer and its interesting hierarchical interface, if this was indeed what it was meant for. The TTR document will be basically an extended, annotated bibliography of research papers, lists of scientists, labs, maybe some companies, websites, etc. And maybe soon in the future, within a year, we can throw up a transhumanist journal on the internet or a PubMed-like interface to the technical literature. To start us off I'll do a quick search of the literature and put up some citations. And behind the scenes I'll start collecting some archive-compressed files of the papers I find. *cough* I'd like to know if I have any support in this document-project. How many of us would find this useful/important? - Bryan On Thursday 08 November 2007 15:46, Stefano Vaj wrote: > The Associazione Italiana Transumanisti (AIT > ) is pleased to announce the immediate > public availability, through its Web site, of the first Universal > Transhumanist Bibliography. > > The purpose of this effort is to offer a working tool both to > transhumanists of any country and persuasion From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 23:22:30 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:22:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> References: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> Message-ID: <200711081722.30336.kanzure@gmail.com> On Thursday 08 November 2007 16:59, ben wrote: > Bryan Bishop said: > > To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. > > I don't understand this. > > Can you explain why emotion might be exclusive to biological minds? The idea is to become somebody other or else than who and what we are. > I'd be prepared to bet that you can't. This may involve leaving behind some aspects of ourselves, maybe not forever. > Is this a manifestation of the "soulless machines" meme? No. And I know what you mean- but if what if somebody wanted to become a soulless machine? Isn't that their choice? > When/if i become post-biological, i plan to have mucho mas soul, > emotion, whatever you want to call it, than any biologically-based > mind. OK (and I'd like to try that as well). But realize that my original segment you're talking about was written in response to try to .. single out the "social transhumanism" signal. This might be the same "collective self-determination" that Stefano Vaj mentioned in an email today. - Bryan From clementlawyer at hotmail.com Fri Nov 9 00:05:50 2007 From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:05:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> References: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> Message-ID: Ben Zed Wrote: > Bryan Bishop said: >> To transcend the bio would be to also transcend emotion. > I don't understand this. > Can you explain why emotion might be exclusive to biological minds? > I'd be prepared to bet that you can't. > Is this a manifestation of the "soulless machines" meme? > When/if i become post-biological, i plan to have mucho mas soul, > emotion, whatever you want to call it, than any biologically-based mind. I'm not an expert on the subject, so someone who is might want to jump in, but I'd suggest that you read about Dr. Paul D. MacLean's theory about the "triune brain." To grossly oversimplify it, at the base of our brain is the brain stem, which is the part we inherited from our reptilian ancestors. Because reptiles had very basic survival needs, like hunting, mating, and fighting for territory, we inherited some of these basic automatic reactions from them. The classic "fight or flight" reactive response is tied to this part of the brain. If the brain were analogized to a peach, the reptilian part would be the pit. The "meat" of the peach would be our next evolutionary inheritance, which is the mammalian brain. Mammals are somewhat social creatures, which need to rear their young rather than lay eggs and move on. Many mammals display a wide range of emotions including playfulness, empathy, loneliness, and love. And last, but certainly not least, is the peach's skin, which relates to the neocortex area of the brain. This is our most recent evolutionary addition to our brain, and while it is very small in size (generally compared to a large dinner napkin the thickness of 6 playing cards), it accounts for most of the conscious thinking that we're aware of. If you look at what MOTIVATES most people, you'll find some pretty basic stuff going on most of the time. We're talking about activities which serve our "pleasure centers," most of which are in the limbic system and are controlled through neurotransmitters and Hormones. Researchers have discovered many chemicals which can block certain neurotransmitters and thereby affect your emotions. It's likely that in fact by giving you various drugs, we can now block nearly all of your various emotions, one way or another, like fear, sexual drive, happiness, etc. Question: if you were going to design an AI or upload a human brain, would you want all of this baggage? To what extent do we want to leave some of these emotions behind? -------------------------- James Clement, J.D., LL.M. From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Nov 9 01:28:00 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:28:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> Keith Henson wrote, > Genes build brains with particular motivations. These > genes were selected during the millions of years our > ancestors lived as hunter-gatherers that built brains > with inclinations to do things that improved the genes > chances of being present in the next generation. This is really a nit hardly worth mentioning. (But for some reason, here I go....) It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people anthropomorphize "evolution" into trying to propagate genes to the next generation. Evolution has no such goals. In reality, the cause and effect are reversed. Creatures undergo random mutations or pursue random acts with no clear goal toward propagation. It is by sheer statistics that those changes less likely to survive tend to die out while those changes more likely to survive increase in number. But this should imply no motivation to the creatures involved to actually reproduce. They are usually just rutting beasts that are focused on their short-term goals rather than long-term goals. > High on the list was gaining higher social status. In > that environment, high status led to improved reproductive > success. In short form, successful hunters got more nooky. > Status was and is (to a first approximation) the integral > of the amount of attention the person received. I would disagree. I would state the reverse was true. I do not believe that competitive individuals chose to compete so they will get laid. I would state that some individuals are more competitive than others by random variation. And those that pursue social climbing tend to reproduce more. But the competitive pursuit of social climbing could really be a root goal and not merely a means to an end. Getting laid for such people is more likely to be a side-effect of their competitiveness rather than their competitiveness being a side-effect of their sex drive. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Nov 9 01:39:37 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:39:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <47322E5D.9090904@lineone.net> Message-ID: <813DD1534C374799B41E56D1385C7A51@Catbert> > Anna asked "what does Transhumanism mean to you?". To me, "transhumanism" is an unfortunate word. Because it implies becoming non-human or transcending my humanity. I like being human. I like to laugh. I like to live. I like being healthy and happy. Getting sick and/or dying prevents me from enjoying my human pursuits. So for me, transhumanism is all about eliminating limits on my humanity. It is about being more human. It is about staying human. It is about enjoying my humanity for a long time without having it cut short. It is about avoiding disease or frailty that disrupt my humanity. It is about transcending limits that limit my human form to its current shape, its current mode, or its current location. Humans love to explore. If we go to the stars, we will be spreading this human pursuit farther than ever before. Humans love to think. If we learn to think with machinery, we will be thinking human thoughts much faster than ever before. Humans love to live. If we learn to live longer or indefinitely, we will be extending this human life much longer than ever before. Humans love to adapt. If we learn to adapt to different shapes or different modes of living, we will be extending human experience far wider than ever before. Transhumanity is more humanity. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Fri Nov 9 01:43:45 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:43:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <38126.72.236.102.113.1194435664.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <388261AC2669464FB46B7799E5FCD134@Catbert> > damn few adult novelists that would dare make God senile and the chief > villain of the book. This was the belief of the early christian gnostics. They believed that creation was evil, god was insane, and that we needed a savior to rescue us from god. Fun stuff. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 01:08:23 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:08:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: References: <473394E2.5090204@lineone.net> Message-ID: <200711081908.23516.kanzure@gmail.com> On Thursday 08 November 2007 18:05, James Clement wrote: > Question: if you were going to design an AI or upload a human brain, > would you want all of this baggage? ?To what extent do we want to > leave some of these emotions behind? That baggage should be archived, not left behind. Especially so early in our history. Can somebody argue for radical anti-emotionism? - Bryan From extropy at unreasonable.com Fri Nov 9 02:13:56 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:13:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Final reminder -- extropian party in NH this Saturday, Nov 10 Message-ID: <200711090214.lA92Ebj92251@unreasonable.com> If you plan to attend, please let me know asap. Also, if you'd like to hear about future parties off-list, to be sure you see them, I'd be glad to send you your Own Very Personal Invitation. -- David. From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 9 03:56:25 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:56:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Golden Compass In-Reply-To: <388261AC2669464FB46B7799E5FCD134@Catbert> Message-ID: <200711090422.lA94MlNN029129@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom ... > > This was the belief of the early christian gnostics. They believed that > creation was evil, god was insane, and that we needed a savior to rescue > us from god... Harvey Newstrom Well now let's look at these notions for a minute. You may recall the Bob Newhart television shows, but he was a hilarious stand-up comic before that. His favorite gag was to imagine telephones in various historic settings. He would get a call from George Washington or from a seventeenth century English trader trying to explain tobacco for instance. The audience would hear only Bob's side of the conversation. It worked. Consider the following, dealing with Harvey's notion, written as a Bob Newhart script: [ring] Hello?...Oh hi Abraham! How's Sarah? ... Good, and Ishmael, and little Isaac? Good, good. So what's on your mind Abe? ... A new religion? You've... You've invented a new religion... It has only one... OK... But... OK... So what's it called?... Judaism, OK...how does... A creed... A set of rules. How many rules Abe?... Ten rules, only ten rules?... Six hundred and ninety three rules. That's a lot of rules, Abe... I see... So, what if someone breaks one of... You what? You kill an animal?!... You mean a rattlesnake or a mosquit... A SHEEP?! Abe, I really don't think...You what? You blame the sheep for your...what's it called?...Sin. You blame the sheep for your sin. Then you kill the sheep... I see, well Abe, you know I really don't think that idea... What's that Abe? A modification... What do you call that?... Christianity... I see...Like Judaism except... What's that Abe?... You kill a PERSON?! So this must be a really bad pers... An innocent person. A savior... So you get a savior, then you blame him for your sin, then you kill him?... Oh, OK, well Abe you know, ah, that idea has some really big prob... Oh one more idea?... What do you call this modification? Mus...Is...Ok, Abe, but... You kill HOW many?! All those who... Um, look Abe, I really don't think any of these three ideas have legs, pal... No... No I really don't. You need to rethink some of these ideas, Abe. That one god notion you are proposing that people worship, what did you call... This one god idea... OK three ideas, Abe you need to think it over a bit more... He sounds a little crazy... Yes I think so, Abe. OK bye Abe, send my greetings to Sarah... From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 06:41:44 2007 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:41:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> References: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> Message-ID: >> High on the list was gaining higher social status. In >> that environment, high status led to improved reproductive >> success. In short form, successful hunters got more nooky. >> Status was and is (to a first approximation) the integral >> of the amount of attention the person received. > I would disagree. I would state the reverse was true. You are wrong here, as one could be wrong in the worst case. IMHO. - Thomas From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 9 10:06:12 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:06:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap Message-ID: Bryan Bishop kanzure at gmail.com : >To start us off I'll do a quick search of the literature and put up some >citations. And behind the scenes I'll start collecting some >archive-compressed files of the papers I find. *cough* >I'd like to know if I have any support in this document-project. >How many of us would find this useful/important? How's that for synchronicity? For this international move, I tried to be more organized and not throw out my good (and expensive) journals/mags I'd subscribed to but haven't had too much time to read in the last years. I skimmed them all, and tore out the articles relevant to my interests and filed them away. In particular, for the Transhumanists, my goal is to categorize topics that I consider of transhumanist value and then expand into an article (sometime). The first part, I did, and wrote into a file on my computer. It's a long list, and when I'm settled in my new home six thousand miles away, (will be some time....) I'll edit this list and make it more coherent. To give an idea, I have top heading squishy topics (with alot of overlap) like the following: General: Living Longer, Smarter, Stronger General: Technologies Neuroscience / Brains Artificial Intelligence Mathematical Biology Quantum Computing Evolution Behavioral Science DNA / RNA Molecular Biology Nanotechnology Networks / Algorithms Do-it-yourself Helping poor countries Space Programs Climate Change / Global Warming Energy Scientific Publishing Science Education / Communicating Science Science and the Government Anti-aging Feminism Cultural Propagating the Message Work Political Playing ..with underneath, many examples of relevant works in progress and completed. Now I have to work on getting my Internet turned off. "We've received your letter stating your request for stopping the contract because of your move out of Italy. Our office is considering your request, and will contact you sometime." Ciao, Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Nov 9 12:02:04 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:02:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38669.72.236.103.64.1194609724.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > Now I have to work on getting my Internet turned off. > > "We've received your letter stating your request for stopping the > contract because of your move out of Italy. Our office is considering > your request, and will contact you sometime." > Yikes, Amara! If it weren't so hideously annoying, it would be hilarious. Considering? Sometime? Trusting that must be Italian "office speak" for Processing, and Shortly? Geez. Good luck, Amara, we're rootin' for you! (Actually it rather sounds like tales of disconnecting from AOL!) Regards, MB From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 12:06:59 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:06:59 +1100 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <813DD1534C374799B41E56D1385C7A51@Catbert> References: <47322E5D.9090904@lineone.net> <813DD1534C374799B41E56D1385C7A51@Catbert> Message-ID: On 09/11/2007, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > To me, "transhumanism" is an unfortunate word. Because it implies becoming > non-human or transcending my humanity. > > I like being human. I like to laugh. I like to live. I like being healthy > and happy. Getting sick and/or dying prevents me from enjoying my human > pursuits. > > So for me, transhumanism is all about eliminating limits on my humanity. It > is about being more human. It is about staying human. It is about enjoying > my humanity for a long time without having it cut short. It is about > avoiding disease or frailty that disrupt my humanity. It is about > transcending limits that limit my human form to its current shape, its > current mode, or its current location. Do you really think that the entity you would become if you lived a million years would be recognisably human? And would it matter if it were not, given that each intermediate entity is happy and freely decides to change into the next in sequence? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 12:28:08 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:28:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> References: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> Message-ID: On 09/11/2007, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people anthropomorphize "evolution" > into trying to propagate genes to the next generation. Evolution has no > such goals. In reality, the cause and effect are reversed. Creatures > undergo random mutations or pursue random acts with no clear goal toward > propagation. It is by sheer statistics that those changes less likely to > survive tend to die out while those changes more likely to survive increase > in number. But this should imply no motivation to the creatures involved to > actually reproduce. They are usually just rutting beasts that are focused > on their short-term goals rather than long-term goals. That is probably how evolution on Earth has worked but it is not how evolution in general has to work. Once intelligence evolves, planning for long term goals may become increasingly important as an evolutionary strategy. -- Stathis Papaioannou From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 9 12:51:27 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:51:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Moving Amusements (was Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap) Message-ID: >> "We've received your letter stating your request for stopping the >> contract because of your move out of Italy. Our office is considering >> your request, and will contact you sometime." MB: >Yikes, Amara! If it weren't so hideously annoying, it would be hilarious. It _is_ hilarious. I'm finding that all of the public utilities have this attitude to my request letter to turn off their service with my full account information, departure date, and old and new address. It will be especially hilarious when they discover that my bank account, that was paying their bill automatically, no longer works. Another amusement was the phone. I have been at home during the day, a rarity, while the movers carted off my house. One phone call wanting me to buy satellite TV services, another phone call wanting me to buy furniture, one phone call saying they cannot turn off my electricity when I want, and one phone from the Italian public TV saying that I must pay them money for owning the TV that I have not owned for 1.5 years. The highlight of the last days was a cheese I tasted that I have not tried before. It is called "Burrata". You cannot find it (at least easily) outside of Italy because it doesn't preserve well. I thought that my mouth had died and gone to heaven. It was the creamiest and tastiest cheese that I've ever eaten in my entire life. That just means that I will have to try to have a little bit (*little*! It is loaded with yummy fat..) more in these last days before I go... Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 9 14:57:25 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:57:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071109145726.KNKC9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 04:23 AM 11/9/2007, Amara wrote: >To give an idea, I have top heading squishy topics (with alot of overlap) >like the following: I know this is an idea, but don't you think the Arts are fundamental if not essential? (including but not limited to interactive, immersive, VR, experience design, cybernetic telematics, technoethics, simulations, artificial life, etc.) Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 9 15:20:30 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:20:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI CryoFeast: Austin, November 18, 2007 Message-ID: <20071109152031.KSTC20155.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Greetings -- This year the AI (Austin Intelligentsia - a local futurist group) is hosting the CryoFeast at our home on November 18th from 5:00 - 7:30 pm. Anyone who is a futurist, H+ist, H2.0ist, and cryonicist is welcome. RSVP: natasha at natasha.cc (After you rsvp, I will send directions and an item to bring to the ThanksGiving gathering) For more information in the AI: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austin_Intelligentsia/ Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 9 16:01:25 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:01:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap (was: Universal Transhumanist Bibliography) In-Reply-To: <200711081706.42204.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> <200711081706.42204.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 05:06 PM 11/8/2007, Bryan Bishop wrote: >For a while now I have been thinking that it would be feasible and >useful to construct a "roadmap" of scientific and technological >research that (objectively) examines the state of the art in H+ related >research fields, whether AI, nano, cryo, neuro, astro, cloning, etc. I >have always correlated H+ with open source software and technologies, >this being the natural next step out of the many possible steps. Can you bring this to the AI CryoFeast? It would be a focal point with you leading a discussion. I'd love to include Amara's substantial list as well. We could webcast discussion or take to SL if Guilio is available. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 9 16:27:37 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Moving Amusements (was Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <810568.72998.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ok, at least something to miss from Italy....cheeses....yeah Italian cheeses are pieces of heaven....and Burrata is like clouds in your mouth... Why could not every experience in Italy taste like its food? Amara Graps wrote: >> "We've received your letter stating your request for stopping the >> contract because of your move out of Italy. Our office is considering >> your request, and will contact you sometime." MB: >Yikes, Amara! If it weren't so hideously annoying, it would be hilarious. It _is_ hilarious. I'm finding that all of the public utilities have this attitude to my request letter to turn off their service with my full account information, departure date, and old and new address. It will be especially hilarious when they discover that my bank account, that was paying their bill automatically, no longer works. Another amusement was the phone. I have been at home during the day, a rarity, while the movers carted off my house. One phone call wanting me to buy satellite TV services, another phone call wanting me to buy furniture, one phone call saying they cannot turn off my electricity when I want, and one phone from the Italian public TV saying that I must pay them money for owning the TV that I have not owned for 1.5 years. The highlight of the last days was a cheese I tasted that I have not tried before. It is called "Burrata". You cannot find it (at least easily) outside of Italy because it doesn't preserve well. I thought that my mouth had died and gone to heaven. It was the creamiest and tastiest cheese that I've ever eaten in my entire life. That just means that I will have to try to have a little bit (*little*! It is loaded with yummy fat..) more in these last days before I go... Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 9 16:31:45 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap (was: Universal Transhumanist Bibliography) In-Reply-To: <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <791346.37760.qm@web31315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Suggestion: Add possible obstacles and dead-ends to the road maps and possible plans to overcome or circumvent them. Natasha Vita-More wrote: At 05:06 PM 11/8/2007, Bryan Bishop wrote: For a while now I have been thinking that it would be feasible and useful to construct a "roadmap" of scientific and technological research that (objectively) examines the state of the art in H+ related research fields, whether AI, nano, cryo, neuro, astro, cloning, etc. I have always correlated H+ with open source software and technologies, this being the natural next step out of the many possible steps. Can you bring this to the AI CryoFeast? It would be a focal point with you leading a discussion. I'd love to include Amara's substantial list as well. We could webcast discussion or take to SL if Guilio is available. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 9 16:59:52 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] AI CryoFeast: Austin, November 18, 2007 In-Reply-To: <20071109152031.KSTC20155.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <361796.84828.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> HI Natasha, is there anything going on with this organization (AI) or otherwise during the beginning of January? I will be in Austin for the American Astronomical Society meeting and I would like to know if there is anything interesting (from a transhumanist point of view) happening in Austin. Also I would like to meet you and other H+ related people in any case (maybe going for an outing on 6th street?), if possible. Thanks Giovanni Natasha Vita-More wrote: Greetings -- This year the AI (Austin Intelligentsia - a local futurist group) is hosting the CryoFeast at our home on November 18th from 5:00 - 7:30 pm. Anyone who is a futurist, H+ist, H2.0ist, and cryonicist is welcome. RSVP: natasha at natasha.cc (After you rsvp, I will send directions and an item to bring to the ThanksGiving gathering) For more information in the AI: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austin_Intelligentsia/ Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bkdelong at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 19:25:22 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (bkdelong at pobox.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:25:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] B.K. wants to Share Favorites with you Message-ID: StumbleUpon Discover new web sites Connect now & http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=1574846&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D2573062%26emailcode%3D19ll5app97acbkzp&l=1&c=19ll5app97acbkzp B.K. wants to Share his Favorites with you He likes44 pages He has2 fans Connect with people that like the same sites you do on StumbleUpon. Come check out StumbleUpon - it's really cool! -&B.K. & bkdelong at pobox.com Connect with me & http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=1574846&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D2573062%26emailcode%3D19ll5app97acbkzp&l=2&c=19ll5app97acbkzp About StumbleUpon StumbleUpon allows you to channel surf the internet and discover great websites and web content you might never have found. Whether it's a website, video, picture, game, blog, or wiki, StumbleUpon helps you find interesting stuff recommended by like-minded people with just a single click of the Stumble! button. Learn More http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=1574846&l=3&c=19ll5app97acbkzp If you do not wish to receive future e-mail invitations to join StumbleUpon, please click here http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=1574846&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fnotifications.php%3Femailcode%3D19ll5app97acbkzp&l=4&c=19ll5app97acbkzp . (c) StumbleUpon 2001-2007 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bkdelong at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 19:45:34 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:45:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] B.K. wants to Share Favorites with you In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sincere Apologies. StumbleUpon Autospammed my contact list. I would have only added those already on the service. Mods, please feel free to delete. I am not a happy camper. On Nov 9, 2007 2:25 PM, wrote: > > > > > > StumbleUpon > > Discover new web sites -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 9 19:59:57 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:59:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] One star, five planets Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071109135724.0217c7b0@satx.rr.com> http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1687 Distant sun has system of five planets Wednesday, 7 November 2007 Cosmos Online SYDNEY: Astronomers have detected a fifth extrasolar planet circling 55 Cancri, a star 41 light years away. This is the greatest number of confirmed planets yet found orbiting another star. "This discovery of the first ever quintuple planetary system has me jumping out of my socks," said Geoff Marcy an astronomer at the University of California, Berkeley in the USA. "The significance is marvellous. We now know that our Sun and its family of planets is not unusual." Liquid water? 55 Cancri is located 41 light-years away in the constellation Cancer and has nearly the same mass and age as our Sun (it is easily visible with binoculars from Earth). The researchers discovered the fifth planet using the Doppler technique, in which a planet's gravitational tug is detected by the wobble it produces in the parent star. It weighs about 45 times the mass of Earth and may be similar to Saturn in its composition and appearance. It is the fourth planet out from 55 Cancri and completes one orbit every 260 days. The researchers have also discovered that the planet's location places it in the habitable zone: a band around the star where the temperature permits liquid water to exist ? and therefore renders the discovery of life more likely. Though its orbit is slightly closer than Earth's is to our Sun, its star is slightly fainter. "The gas-giant planets in our Solar System all have large moons," said Debra Fischer, an astronomer at San Francisco State University in California and lead author of a paper on the find upcoming in the Astrophysical Journal. "If there is a moon orbiting this new, massive planet, it might have pools of liquid water on a rocky surface," she said. Fischer and Marcy are part of a team that discovered this planet after careful observation of 2,000 nearby stars with a telescope at California's Lick Observatory and the Keck Observatory on Mauna Kea, Hawaii. More than 320 velocity measurements were required to disentangle signals from each of the planets. Family of planets The planets around 55 Cancri are somewhat different from those orbiting our Sun. The innermost planet is believed to be about the size of Neptune and whips around the star in less than three days at a distance from the star of approximately 3.5 million miles. The second planet is a little smaller than Jupiter and completes one orbit every 14.7 days, at a distance from the star of approximately 11.2 million miles. The third planet, similar in mass to Saturn, completes one orbit every 44 days at a distance from the star of approximately 22.3 million miles. The fifth and most distant known planet is four times the mass of Jupiter and completes one orbit every 14 years at a distance from the star of approximately 539.1 million miles. It is still the only known Jupiter-like gas giant to reside as far away from its star as our own Jupiter. "Discovering these five planets took us 18 years of continuous observations at Lick Observatory, starting before any extrasolar planets were known anywhere in the universe," said Marcy. "But finding five extrasolar planets orbiting a star is only one small step. Earth-like planets are the next destination." "This work marks an exciting next step in the search for worlds like our own," commented Michael Briley, an astronomer at the U.S. National Science Foundation. "To go from the first detections of planets around sun-like stars to finding a full-fledged solar system in just 12 years, is an amazing accomplishment and a testament to the years of hard work put in by these investigators." From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 9 20:01:18 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:01:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] black holes make cosmic rays Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071109140010.021dc750@satx.rr.com> http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1693 The origin of these rays has remained mysterious since they were first discovered by Auger in the 1930s. Astrophysicists had predicted that Active Galactic Nuclei (AGN) ? the violent supermassive black holes found at the centre of some galaxies ? could be the source, but there was no evidence to prove this. Now, experts from 17 countries, have used the newly constructed Pierre Auger Observatory in Malargue, Argentina, to pinpoint AGN as the likely source of the highest-energy cosmic rays hitting Earth. The team of scientists used particle detectors and fluorescence telescopes to reveal that high-energy cosmic rays do not come equally from all directions. Furthermore, they found that the likely origins of the 27 highest energy events correlated well with clustering of the known locations of 381 AGN in nearby galaxies. etc From benboc at lineone.net Fri Nov 9 22:30:13 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:30:13 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> Amara wrote: > "We've received your letter stating your request for stopping the > contract because of your move out of Italy. Our office is considering > your request, and will contact you sometime." LMAO Your 'request'? So have you 'requested' that the contract be terminated? Rather than /telling/ them that the contract /is/ now terminated? Or is there some arcane Italian legal reason that you don't have the power to do this? Maybe a contract in Italy isn't a mutual agreement between two parties, like it is everywhere else? I'm with whoever said that you should just disappear. Cut all the strings and walk away, rather than request that all the relevant authorities eventually tie them off in their own way and time. You, more than anybody, know how long that will take and how much frustration it will cause. ben zed From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 22:54:40 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:54:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap (was: Universal Transhumanist Bibliography) In-Reply-To: <791346.37760.qm@web31315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <791346.37760.qm@web31315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711091654.40250.kanzure@gmail.com> On Friday 09 November 2007 10:31, giovanni santost wrote: > Suggestion: > Add possible obstacles and dead-ends to the road maps and possible > plans to overcome or circumvent them. This is absolutely vital. I have some ideas in mind that sort of circumvent the roadblocks that we have been facing. Heh- roadblocks. - Bryan From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 23:47:17 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:47:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> Message-ID: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2007 11:30 PM, ben wrote: > Or is there some arcane Italian legal reason that you don't have the > power to do this? Maybe a contract in Italy isn't a mutual agreement > between two parties, like it is everywhere else? > > I'm with whoever said that you should just disappear. > I did. That is what all self-respecting Italians would do in such circumstances. Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon attitude in a different cultural context. She has been suffering from the kind of problems that Japanese girls may have in the US... :-) Stefano -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Nov 9 23:57:29 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:57:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/07, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Nov 9, 2007 11:30 PM, ben wrote: > > > Or is there some arcane Italian legal reason that you don't have the > > power to do this? Maybe a contract in Italy isn't a mutual agreement > > between two parties, like it is everywhere else? > > > > I'm with whoever said that you should just disappear. > > > > I did. That is what all self-respecting Italians would do in such > circumstances. > > Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon attitude > in a different cultural context. She has been suffering from the kind of > problems that Japanese girls may have in the US... :-) Yes, exactly! As I've mentioned to Amara offline, I experienced much greater culture shock upon returning to California after living in Japan, than I did moving to Japan in the first place. (And I'm far from being a Japanese girl.) My first several months back in California I was dismayed daily by the pervasive rudeness and disorganization. But hey, dude, I got over it. - Jef From pjmanney at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 00:46:39 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:46:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2007 3:57 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > Yes, exactly! As I've mentioned to Amara offline, I experienced much > greater culture shock upon returning to California after living in > Japan, than I did moving to Japan in the first place. (And I'm far > from being a Japanese girl.) My first several months back in > California I was dismayed daily by the pervasive rudeness and > disorganization. But hey, dude, I got over it. For me transitioning from New Zealand back to the US, it was the enormous food portions! I have never seen chips aka French Fries aka frites in such profusion in my life, in quantities vast enough to cover one's self with little fried potato sticks. And Americans are loud. I cringe to think how I sounded Down Under. And Americans are really obsessed with materialism, but as aggressive marketing spreads around the world, I'm seeing this elsewhere, too. And I still miss the old fashioned daily common sense of the Kiwis. Nothing was a problem (unless you worked for the government). Everything was an opportunity to figure out a mutually beneficial solution... But the US has its own positive attributes and as I've also told Amara offline, every place has its advantages and disadvantages at a particular point in time and it's all about finding the place where you, however subjectively, feel the pros outweigh the cons, at that moment. However, this begs an interesting question: do people in this group feel they are more or less travelled than others in their demographic population? Does seeing 'the big picture' and thinking about the future more than others mean we're more or less mobile or is there no correlation and the idea is irrelevant? PJ From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 00:54:04 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:54:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711091654s29b6caf9g774036916eae6473@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 1:46 AM, PJ Manney wrote: > However, this begs an interesting question: do people in this group > feel they are more or less travelled than others in their demographic > population? Does seeing 'the big picture' and thinking about the > future more than others mean we're more or less mobile or is there no > correlation and the idea is irrelevant? > In fact, one environment I shall never adjust to is the separate world represented by airports and commercial planes, let alone after 9/11. Any time somebody had an even wildly experimental teleportation solution, be it with a 1% risk of getting lost in hyperspace, I will be their first frequent-flyer card-holder client. :-) Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 00:54:06 2007 From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:54:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> References: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> Message-ID: On 11/8/07, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > Keith Henson wrote, > > Genes build brains with particular motivations. These > > genes were selected during the millions of years our > > ancestors lived as hunter-gatherers that built brains > > with inclinations to do things that improved the genes > > chances of being present in the next generation. > > This is really a nit hardly worth mentioning. (But for some reason, here > I > go....) > > It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people anthropomorphize > "evolution" > into trying to propagate genes to the next generation. Evolution has no > such goals. In reality, the cause and effect are reversed. Creatures > undergo random mutations or pursue random acts with no clear goal toward > propagation. It is by sheer statistics that those changes less likely to > survive tend to die out while those changes more likely to survive > increase > in number. But this should imply no motivation to the creatures involved > to > actually reproduce. They are usually just rutting beasts that are focused > on their short-term goals rather than long-term goals. I just wanted to say Thank You! It's a pet peeve of mine also, mainly because people come to all sorts of invalid views based on said anthropormization: namely, that evolution proceeds towards some kind of goal, like a pre-established or pre-determinable state of "fitness". But in reality, evolution is nothing but another word for "change": it doesn't imply that what it changes into will be better, more complex, more extropic, or anything else; we really have no idea where this tumbleweed will blow off to next. Best regards, Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Sat Nov 10 01:20:51 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:20:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" evolution in terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word for our ignorance. Saying that evolution is driven by probabilistic events is not really an explanation of anything. It just shows we don't understand what really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments as the best possible way to model what we don't fully understand. As a model, Darwinian Evolution is the best we have at the moment, but we have to realize any model is a limited picture of reality. Probablility makes sense when applied to a large sample of data. Sadly, we know so far, just one example of world with life so probability and evolution should be used in the same sentence with extreme caution. Kevin H wrote: On 11/8/07, Harvey Newstrom wrote: Keith Henson wrote, > Genes build brains with particular motivations. These > genes were selected during the millions of years our > ancestors lived as hunter-gatherers that built brains > with inclinations to do things that improved the genes > chances of being present in the next generation. This is really a nit hardly worth mentioning. (But for some reason, here I go....) It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people anthropomorphize "evolution" into trying to propagate genes to the next generation. Evolution has no such goals. In reality, the cause and effect are reversed. Creatures undergo random mutations or pursue random acts with no clear goal toward propagation. It is by sheer statistics that those changes less likely to survive tend to die out while those changes more likely to survive increase in number. But this should imply no motivation to the creatures involved to actually reproduce. They are usually just rutting beasts that are focused on their short-term goals rather than long-term goals. I just wanted to say Thank You! It's a pet peeve of mine also, mainly because people come to all sorts of invalid views based on said anthropormization: namely, that evolution proceeds towards some kind of goal, like a pre-established or pre-determinable state of "fitness". But in reality, evolution is nothing but another word for "change": it doesn't imply that what it changes into will be better, more complex, more extropic, or anything else; we really have no idea where this tumbleweed will blow off to next. Best regards, Kevin _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 10 01:46:18 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:46:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94F28AB7A9E04B7D97B06C982821B807@Catbert> Stathis Papaioannou wrote, > Do you really think that the entity you would become if you > lived a million years would be recognizably human? Not to you now, no. But to me in a million years, yes. I would see myself as human. I see myself as more human today than homo erectus was when they were humans. I see myself as more human today than the baby that I was born as. Furthermore, I define all my good traits that I want to improve as "human" traits. My intelligence, humor, creativity, and all other traits in which I am superior to monkeys, are what I term "human" traits. These are all (or mostly) good, and I wish to improve them. I define all my bad traits that I want to discard as "monkey" traits. My mortality, sickness, fragile meat body, limited meat brain, uncontrolled animal emotions, and all other traits in which I am equivalent to monkeys, are what I term "monkey" traits. These are all (or mostly) bad, and I wish to improve them. This is merely a semantic distinction. The terminology of whether that future human is "human" or "inhuman" depends on whether you group the good traits or the bad traits under that label. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 10 02:07:37 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:07:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711100233.lAA2Xvbw017875@andromeda.ziaspace.com> ________________________________________ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj ... Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon attitude in a different cultural context. She has been suffering from the kind of problems that Japanese girls may have in the US... :-) Stefano Explain please. What problems do Japanese girls have in the US? spike From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 10 02:35:25 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <09DC1BA9F9A649DDAC70ABE056641AB5@Catbert> Stathis Papaioannou wrote, > That is probably how evolution on Earth has worked but it is > not how evolution in general has to work. Once intelligence > evolves, planning for long term goals may become increasingly > important as an evolutionary strategy. Yes. I was indeed describing how it worked in the past only. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 10 02:57:28 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:57:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86A072BB75564A8F9ED5590127790355@Catbert> giovanni santost wrote, > I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" evolution in > terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word for our ignorance. > Saying that evolution is driven by probabilistic events is not > really an explanation of anything. It just shows we don't understand > what really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments as the best > possible way to model what we don't fully understand. You are mistaken as to what evolution says. The theory does not say things happen by "chance" because we can't explain them. The theory actually explains how things work and calculates statistical probabilities for them. For example, bears may be born with random variations in their fur. In the artic, bears with more white in their fur are statistically more likely to escape notice than bears with more black in their fur. Therefore, statistically (not by chance) white bears survive x% more while black bears survive x% less. The next year, there are more white bears to have offspring than black bears. Over time, white bears become dominant in the arctic while black bears die out. None of this is guesswork, unpredictable, or by "chance". It is statistical math that the environmental pressures cause random distribution of fur colors to bias towards white. No fuzzy ignorance here. You are confusing things happening with "statistical predictability" with things happening "by unexplained chance". > As a model, > Darwinian Evolution is the best we have at the moment, but we have > to realize any model is a limited picture of reality. > Probability makes sense when applied to a large sample of data. Sadly, > we know so far, just one example of world with life so probability and > evolution should be used in the same sentence with extreme caution. There is no one example of evolution. Every species that exists now or has ever existed is an example. There are millions if not billions of examples. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Nov 10 03:00:59 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:00:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0EC8816F8C9B4E6B8B60CF99255F1CE7@Catbert> Kevin H wrote, > > I just wanted to say Thank You! It's a pet peeve of mine > also, mainly because people come to all sorts of invalid views > based on said anthropormization This is exactly why it peeves me so. It is bad science and leads to all sorts of nonsensical assertions. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From moses2k at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 05:41:51 2007 From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:41:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <200711100233.lAA2Xvbw017875@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> <200711100233.lAA2Xvbw017875@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <3aff9e290711092141l1ffd5015g79643eaf0817f39f@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2007 8:07 PM, spike wrote: > Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon > attitude > in a different cultural context. She has been suffering from the kind of > problems that Japanese girls may have in the US... :-) Stefano > > > Explain please. What problems do Japanese girls have in the US? > > spike > > Surely nothing as fearsome as the tentacle monsters back home. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 09:17:37 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:17:37 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: <37BE1A990CA74606A963E6596EA93612@Catbert> Message-ID: On 10/11/2007, Kevin H wrote: > On 11/8/07, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > It is a personal pet peeve of mine that people anthropomorphize > "evolution" > > into trying to propagate genes to the next generation. Evolution has no > > such goals. In reality, the cause and effect are reversed. Creatures > > undergo random mutations or pursue random acts with no clear goal toward > > propagation. It is by sheer statistics that those changes less likely to > > survive tend to die out while those changes more likely to survive > increase > > in number. But this should imply no motivation to the creatures involved > to > > actually reproduce. They are usually just rutting beasts that are focused > > on their short-term goals rather than long-term goals. > > > I just wanted to say Thank You! It's a pet peeve of mine also, mainly > because people come to all sorts of invalid views based on said > anthropormization: namely, that evolution proceeds towards some kind of > goal, like a pre-established or pre-determinable state of "fitness". But in > reality, evolution is nothing but another word for "change": it doesn't > imply that what it changes into will be better, more complex, more extropic, > or anything else; we really have no idea where this tumbleweed will blow off > to next. That is so, but it is a slightly different point to the one Harvey was making. It is possible that organisms may propagate their genes better as a result of insight into the processes whereby their genes are propagated. But this does not mean that evolution works towards a state of greater intelligence or greater anything. For example, it could turn out that bacteria are more successful in a particular ecosystem than organisms lumbered with large brains. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 12:41:23 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:41:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My confusion, the Kurzweil critique In-Reply-To: <94F28AB7A9E04B7D97B06C982821B807@Catbert> References: <94F28AB7A9E04B7D97B06C982821B807@Catbert> Message-ID: <580930c20711100441v26a3094chb2af72facd35cca9@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 2:46 AM, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > This is merely a semantic distinction. The terminology of whether that > future human is "human" or "inhuman" depends on whether you group the good > traits or the bad traits under that label. > It also depends on whether you see "ominidisation" as a status or as process. In the first sense, I have no doubt that "humanity" must be left behind. If, on the other hand, the essence of "human" is identified in overcoming previous limitations and getting in control on one's own biology and identity as a species, to remain as we are would mean to regress to a somewhat "animal" status, while the real "human" attitude would be transhumanism (i.e., transhumanism would be analogous to what made homo abilis different from its simian-like ancestors). Exactly the same ambiguity is reflected in XIX century superhomism: where Nietzsche speaks of the "Superman", or the "Overman", meaning not some being who is exceedingly human, but who has gone beyond humanity and the "human, all too human", Wagner speaks of the rein-menschliches, the "purely-human", to mean exactly the same thing, in opposition to human beings who are still passively determined by their past, thus remaining "partially animal". In fact, I slightly prefer the first kind of language, since words "transhumanism" and "posthumanism" make it more clear where we stay on that issue, "humanism" having come to indicate mostly bio-conservatism and neo-luddism - even though in fact primordial human beings actually made the opposite "choice". Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 15:32:07 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:32:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <200711100233.lAA2Xvbw017875@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> <200711100233.lAA2Xvbw017875@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711100732n1dddf609v71ad407e8ac5c1f6@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 3:07 AM, spike wrote: > Explain please. What problems do Japanese girls have in the US? Not living in the United States, nor being a Japanese girl, my evidence in this respect is purely anedoctical. :-) But for instance, as I read once pointed out in an article and as it actually corresponds to my personal experience, the body language which in Japan is considered to mean "leave me alone" (to recoil slightly, lowering your chin, smiling and staring at the other party) is reasonably interpreted as... inviting in many western countries, which would seem to rise quite many opportunities for cultural misunderstandings... :-) But let go back to Italy. There is a buffet. The typical Italian plunges directly towards the dishes or the trays carrying what he or she is interested in. If he or she is not rude, this is done with some subtlety, but the real point is that if you stand instead in a line walking before the buffet, you are likely to get quickly frustrated, and will consider the other guests as being uncivilised. On the other hand, the Italian system is not necessarily less effective, since there is no real point, that is, other than social custom, in crowding a waiting line before the appetizers when all you want is a dessert and nobody is currently at it yet. Another trivial point. The polite way to get on board on a cab is in Italy to walk around the taxi and to open and keep the door to the lady travelling with you (something that may already be considered as patronising elsewhere, unless you are the chauffeur). If traffic does not allow that, it is best to hurry to climb in it first, because the manouvering involved in getting on the opposite side seat may be unconfortable in small cars, and because you are supposed to end up with the lady sitting on your right. It is my experience that in the US, or for that matter the UK, the rule is reverses, as offering your lady friend the opportunity to climb in first is given priority. Of couse, Amara's scenarios are much more complicate than that, but being an Italian I can figure pretty well what exactly went wrong. This of course does not mean that many aspects of our way of life should not be improved, besides cheese, I mean... :-) Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Nov 10 16:27:09 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:27:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071110162710.ZFAO4063.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 06:46 PM 11/9/2007, PJ wrote: : >However, this begs an interesting question: do people in this group >feel they are more or less travelled than others in their demographic >population? Does seeing 'the big picture' and thinking about the >future more than others mean we're more or less mobile or is there no >correlation and the idea is irrelevant? I travel too much to have a centralized demographic location :-) I have travelled to Eastern and Western Europe, Central America, South America, various islands, Asia, etc., and each time it is a culture shock, but the adapting is quicker. It is never easy when bags are lost, illness sets in, and customs is harsh. Physical traveling to geographic locations is just part of the big picture. Psychological traveling to different cultures and experiencing them provides a deeper, richer experience. Transhumanists and other futurists see a big picture because of an ability to skim across and synthesize domains of thought regardless of physical and psychological real-time travel. This may become just one way of the travelling experience as we continue being more fluid in virtual time and "experience design" will make real and virtual even more immersive and challenging. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 16:59:30 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:59:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/07, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon attitude > in a different cultural context. She has been suffering from the kind of > problems that Japanese girls may have in the US... :-) > Italy is recognised as having a very large 'black' economy. The IMF reckoned that up to a third of workers are 'off the book'. Tax evasion is a way of life for small business in Italy. (One set of accounts for the tax man and another set for running the business). Not all the 'black' economy is criminal or Mafia activities. Much 'black' economy activity is ordinary jobs that would never be done if they were taxed and regulated by officialdom. And now, in addition, there are all the illegal immigrants working, who officially don't exist. (Except when the government has an amnesty and are swamped by applications). Following the rules in Italy is regarded as the last resort, if all other options fail. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 17:12:16 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:12:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711100912y536c0626rd58939d239d2b252@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 5:59 PM, BillK wrote: > Italy is recognised as having a very large 'black' economy. > The IMF reckoned that up to a third of workers are 'off the book'. > Tax evasion is a way of life for small business in Italy. > (One set of accounts for the tax man and another set for running the > business). > > Not all the 'black' economy is criminal or Mafia activities. Much > 'black' economy activity is ordinary jobs that would never be done if > they were taxed and regulated by officialdom. This is unhealthy for a large serious or reasons, not the least being that this generates corruptions since while some rules may be rarely enforced, an exception can always be made the other way around. But it is perfectly true that *taxation policies themselves* take into account some degree of evasion (or today perhaps more often avoidance). This means of course that full compliance exposes one to be outcompeted in the market... > > Following the rules in Italy is regarded as the last resort, if all > other options fail. > Well, let us say that some rules are taken more seriously than others, and that actual chances of enforcement, especially given that as far as civil liability is concerned we do not have such things as punitive damages, is usually factored in... :-) Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjmanney at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 17:29:44 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:29:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LA Times: His passion for solar still burns Message-ID: <29666bf30711100929y3e57b8d6pb9a9dd1e05d07c84@mail.gmail.com> "Forty years ago, Harold Hay came up with a way to heat and cool homes using water and the sun. At 98, he's still trying to get the world to notice." Turns out a user-friendly personality is more important than user-friendly technology in getting it across the finish line. I've seen a few water roofs over the years, most notably Barton Myer's house in Montecito: http://www.bartonmyers.com/toro_03.htm but they're used as much for fire prevention as insulation. [BTW, given our regular fires out here, Myers' home is complete genius. The fire burns around it, but has nothing to catch on the house. It's the perfect lock-and-leave house for fire-prone SoCal canyons.] I recommend linking to the newssite's webpage for picture and diagrams of Hay's system: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/columnone/la-fi-haroldhay10nov10,1,716684.story?coll=la-headlines-columnone >From the Los Angeles Times COLUMN ONE His passion for solar still burns Forty years ago, Harold Hay came up with a way to heat and cool homes using water and the sun. At 98, he's still trying to get the world to notice. By Elizabeth Douglass Los Angeles Times Staff Writer November 10, 2007 Harold Hay wants to help the world save itself, but he's running out of time. Forty years ago, Hay invented a simple, inexpensive way to heat and cool a home using the sun's rays, but without the panels and wiring that come with conventional solar energy systems. He's been pushing for its adoption ever since, trying to find footing in each of the solar industry's last three boom-and-bust cycles. Yet, despite the merits of his pioneering technology, the energy establishment has shown only fleeting interest. Now 98, Hay is making what he knows will be his final push. The retired chemist promotes his cause by funding research. He vents his frustration in letters, e-mails, phone messages to anyone who will listen, and on his own website, www.2and50needles.com. Hay is sanctimonious, unyielding and scathingly critical of other people's efforts and the solar business as a whole. He dismisses the Energy Department as being "in the research-forever stage" and the solar trade as "a bunch of money grubbers." Hay has no interest in softening his message. He doesn't have time for subtlety. Hay quotes from an article he's earmarked in Natural History magazine: "When scientists do science, when they play their game, they debate passionately, and disagree openly, often with brutal honesty toward party lines, sacred cows, or" -- Hay raises his voice for emphasis -- "other people's feelings." He closes the magazine. "Now that defines me as close as you can get." Hay adds, as if reminding himself, "That's why I'm a loner." That tenacity has sometimes worked against him. Over time, people lost patience with Hay and then lost interest in his creation, says Ken Haggard, who designs buildings that use solar energy. Hay's combative personality and reluctance to let others join his mission scotched one potential deal and may have turned others off, Haggard says. "He's a caricature of the mad inventor," says Haggard, who met Hay in 1972 when the architect was a young professor at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. "He's a genius. But he's also impossible. And he has not mellowed one iota." It's tempting to write off Hay as a bitter solar has-been, hoping for immortality at the end of his life. But, given today's energy and climate challenges, ignoring his message and achievements could be a mistake. "His invention and what he's been saying for all these years is still very, very relevant," says Becky Campbell-Howe, operations director at the American Solar Energy Society, which gave Hay its Passive Solar Pioneer award in 1986. "The main point that he's trying to make now is that all of our hopes are pinned on all of these complicated technologies, and it's not that complicated. We could solve a lot of the problems by building our buildings correctly." Hay calls his invention the Skytherm system, and it was a wonder in the 1960s because it used the sun to heat and cool a home. The earliest version operated without any electricity, making it a purely passive solar technology. Skytherm was the first of what's known today as a roof-pond system. It includes a large mass of water, contained water-bed style in plastic bladders on top of a house. A steel liner subsitutes for regular roofing. The flat roof also holds an insulation panel that moves on rails to cover and uncover the water with the help of a motor, an upgrade from the original rope pulley. The concept relies on water's tremendous ability to absorb heat. During hot summer days, the water bags are covered by the panel, which deflects the heat of the sun while the bags draw warmth from the house, keeping the interior cool. At night, the panel moves aside and the bags release their heat into the night air. The process is reversed in the winter. Hay explains the basic theory by pointing out his bedroom window: "Take the black pavement out on the street. It gets extremely hot every day in the summertime -- much too hot to walk across barefooted. The next morning it's cold." Hay attempts what passes for a shout these days: "You don't need electricity to cool! You don't need an air conditioner! You do it with the sky." In 1967, Hay scraped together the money to build a one-room test home in Phoenix. The results were encouraging, but yielded no flood of support or funding. It took him several more years, but Hay finally got a full-scale model built in Atascadero, Calif., near the campus of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. It was completed in 1973. The next year, Hay testified before Congress, imploring lawmakers to fund research into solar heating and cooling. Two years later, Hay's Skytherm house was recognized by the American Revolution Bicentennial Commission as one of the country's 200 most promising inventions. In his run-down apartment near downtown Los Angeles, crammed with a lifetime of research, Hay holds up a brightly colored poster celebrating the award; he points to the spot where the Skytherm house is mentioned. "That was an award from the president of the United States," he says. "My house was one of the unique things, and it's gone nowhere." Hay likes to say he was born to invent. He grew up on a dairy farm in Spokane, Wash., the youngest of three boys. His father held patents on pasteurizing machinery and young Harold, the farm's bottle washer, got his start in chemistry by studying butterfat content at the dairy. Later, he earned a chemistry degree at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Hay's first job out of college was at Monsanto Chemical Co.'s wood products division, where he concocted a preservative that was used for years on telephone poles and railroad ties around the world. In the library at Monsanto, he met Evelyn, the woman who became his wife and stuck by him as he zigzagged through life, taking jobs in government and industry that sent them to Sweden, Venezuela, Colombia, Morocco and India, the place that inspired the Skytherm design. Hay stops his story here because it's impossible for him to gloss over Evelyn. For 48 years -- until her death from breast cancer in 1985 -- she was the chief believer in a temperamental scientist with big ideas. "Evelyn. Oh, God. She's such a treasure," Hay says, speaking of her in the present tense. "Without a person like that, a scientist has a hard time in life." He grins while recalling an ill-conceived Christmas Eve journey to northern Sweden. The young couple, intent on a romantic sleigh ride, instead found themselves with a lone reindeer, freezing and sinking into the snow because it was overwhelmed by the load. And there was the time they couldn't pay the rent and thought they'd have to sleep on benches in MacArthur Park. For those few minutes, thinking of Evelyn, Hay seemed like a young and foolish husband again. Hay says he spearheaded the creation of the St. Louis Progressive Party, which helped get him labeled a communist. He came up with a chemical to purify drinking water, and he found a way to chemically toughen fiberboard to broaden its use. During World War II, the self-proclaimed pacifist worked on the development of synthetic rubber to avoid military service and jail. Along the way, almost as a hobby, Hays did groundbreaking research in the origins of medicine. Today, Hay's universe is considerably smaller. For more than two decades he's been living in a tiny apartment, surrounded by dozens of boxes full of magazine articles, scholarly treatises and government reports. One entire wall of boxes is devoted to medical topics. Asisclo "Butch" Carnaje, who takes care of Hay, says the clutter is loosely organized by subject. Amid the mess, Hay keeps a magazine display rack that holds copies of his congressional testimony as well as conference papers with titles such as "Wet Steps to Solar Stills" and "Roofponds En Route." The most recent material is in the bedroom, where Hay spends most of his time. There, magazines, annual reports, clippings and the like are stacked on the floor and under the hospital-style bed. Hay is strong for someone who has lived 98 years. But age and illness, witnessed by the long rows of medications on his dresser, have left their inevitable mark. His daily routine is dictated mostly by meals and sleep, which leaves pockets of time for him to read, watch the BBC and business news, check e-mail and track his stocks online. Hay used to regularly board a crosstown bus to do research at university libraries. Now his social schedule is composed mostly of doctors' appointments. But not entirely. In December, he spent nearly a month in a mountainside bamboo house in Manila with Carnaje and his family. He then made a side trip to an international meeting on the history of medicine, with a stop to lecture a Habitat for Humanity group on the Skytherm design. "I'm happy here," Hay says. "The thing I'm not happy about is that my ideas aren't recognized." Hay's prized Skytherm house is in disrepair these days. A family lived in it for a while, but there were leaks. When fuel got cheap again in the late 1970s, enthusiasm for the project petered out along with the entire solar movement. The Skytherm house's benefits were never documented beyond the prototype stage, and no one worked out how much mass production would cost. Over the years, Hay has given $500,000 to the University of Nevada Las Vegas and $50,000 to Indiana's Ball State University to fund Skytherm research. The studies confirmed the heating and cooling benefits of Hay's design but didn't go further. Encouraged by a $1-million research grant from Hay -- along with title to the Atascadero house -- Cal Poly has periodically revived the project. Mike Montoya, a professor of construction management, recently secured permits to bring the house up to current building codes. He hopes to reopen it and quantify its merits. "The thing that sparked my interest is the fact that it is supposed to be able to heat and cool the house with no power," Montoya says. "There are a couple of problems, but it clearly works. It's a design that's very, very simple and that can be applied pretty much anywhere." What has kept the idea from spreading? "One of the reasons he hasn't had more success is that the entire solar industry, with few exceptions, has been undercapitalized," says David James, an associate vice provost at UNLV who worked with Hay for three years and coauthored with him a 2006 paper on solar stills, which purify water using sunlight. "Some of it is back-scratching, or politics . . . and you have to be able to convince conventionally minded bureaucrats that it can be done." Steven Strong, who heads a solar design company that uses passive solar techniques alongside solar panels and other methods, has doubts about the applicability of Hay's roof ponds in today's housing market. "The actual application that he had, very few will ever be done. But the whole idea of a green roof, where you're intercepting the sunlight and creating a thermal barrier so that the building is cooler below, that has more appeal," he says. "He was just ahead of his time." Steve Baer, another solar inventor and a Hay admirer since the 1960s, says he built a business selling utility cooling systems that were inspired by Hay's concepts. And over the summer, he tested a variation of Hay's roof-pond system that he hopes will catch on in Southern California and other sunny spots. "I'm more and more sure that his ideas are going to find their way to the public," says Baer, president of Zomeworks Corp. If it happens, it won't be soon enough for Hay. "All these developments are in the future," Hay says, "and I'm getting older, and know it." elizabeth.douglass @latimes.com From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Nov 10 17:31:23 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:31:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> References: <4734DF75.60902@lineone.net> <580930c20711091547y1200476dl7f89fa289895e14d@mail.gmail.com> <29666bf30711091646u2bd8f666m44041beeb70a3066@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/07, PJ Manney wrote: > However, this begs an interesting question: do people in this group > feel they are more or less travelled than others in their demographic > population? Does seeing 'the big picture' and thinking about the > future more than others mean we're more or less mobile or is there no > correlation and the idea is irrelevant? I don't know the actual distribution of travelers on the extropy list, but I do think that travel and broader thinking are positively correlated. One of my goals, and to some extent Lizbeth's, is to enjoy an increasingly mobile lifestyle, while maintaining effective access to business, friends, other contacts, personal media library, intellectual/cultural/entertainment resources, etc. I'm thinking in terms of full-fledged techno-nomadism, while Lizbeth says she might be persuaded, key concern being the desire to maintain roots, a place to come back to and call home. To me, home is just a state of mind. - Jef - Jef From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 10 18:17:02 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:17:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] abandon all body language {8-] In-Reply-To: <580930c20711100732n1dddf609v71ad407e8ac5c1f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711101816.lAAIGlK2027700@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj > Subject: Re: [ExI] Abandon all services > > On Nov 10, 2007 3:07 AM, spike wrote: > > Explain please. What problems do Japanese girls have in the US? ... > > ... the body language > which in Japan is considered to mean "leave me alone" (to recoil > slightly, lowering your chin, smiling and staring at the other party) > is reasonably interpreted as... inviting in many western countries, > which would seem to rise quite many opportunities for cultural > misunderstandings... :-)... Stefano Vaj Oh, OK cool, thanks Vaj. I have never been worth a damn at reading people's body language. That's why I play chess instead of poker. In spite of being good at mentally calculating probabilities, I am an abysmal suckster at sensing normal human people's intentions. I am totally non-blackberry at that skill. It is almost like having negative ESP, or finding oneself at a convention of ESP-havers when one possesses only the traditional five senses. Most uncomfortable. When someone at a party proposes a poker match, as soon as the first card is dealt, I hand over all my chips and throw off my clothes, just to save time. The guests are puzzled and amused by this behavior. Or so I am told. I am beginning to suspect that they bring the poker cards just to witness my reaction. In a weak attempt to compensate for this tone-deafness to others' thoughts and intentions, I listen carefully to what people actually say. As any normal person can easily guess, this usually leads to trouble and misunderstanding, being as normal people seldom actually say what they really mean. This characteristic of humans is found in every culture and language across the globe. Perhaps this is why I am more comfortable and effective in Second Life than in... what is here called? First Life? This technique of listening to peoples' actual words fails even worse in situations that rely heavily upon nonverbal communications. I have managed to master a few of the nonverbal cues, but I confess to understanding only the most broad and general ones. For instance as when a young lady shrieks and flees in terror, this is a bad thing. If she goes for her pepper spray, this is also a bad thing. If she uses it on me, this is worse. This has led me to certain insights that others do not have however. For instance, few are aware of the wide variation in the effectiveness of the different brands of sprays, in both debilitating power and in flavor. I should do an article for Consumer Reports, from the unique perspective of the actual "consumer" of the product. To conclude this line of thought is my observation that there are two major differences between here and Second Life. In Second Life, one can fly without the aid of mechanical devices. And they don't even have pepper spray there. spike From amara at amara.com Sat Nov 10 18:26:03 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:26:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services Message-ID: >I did. That is what all self-respecting Italians would do in such >circumstances. >Amara's problems originate from the attempt to adopt an anglo-saxon attitude >in a different cultural context. Cut the crap, Stefano. Italians and I both wrote the letters I used. To be precise: I asked my 'self-respecting Italian' colleagues and friends the procedures to use, they told me the procedures, I wrote the letters, checked with them, and sent and faxed them off. I'm kind of tired of your implying that I'm not doing anything in the 'self-respecting' Italian way. My colleagues and friends are ripped off, shafted, frustrated, twisted around by the environment around them too. The only difference is they have decades of getting used to it, they don't complain when they are ripped off, and they have extra and they layers of familial network to support them. Amara From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 18:36:25 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:36:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20711101036w3af371e6u767643f59f5c9c40@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2007 7:26 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > > Cut the crap, Stefano. Italians and I both wrote the letters I used. To be > precise: I asked my 'self-respecting Italian' colleagues and friends > the procedures to use, they told me the procedures, I wrote the letters, > checked with them, and sent and faxed them off. > > I'm kind of tired of your implying that I'm not doing anything in the > 'self-respecting' Italian way. My colleagues and friends are ripped > off, shafted, frustrated, twisted around by the environment around them > too. The only difference is they have decades of getting used to it, > they don't complain when they are ripped off, and they have extra > and they layers of familial network to support them. > Please appreciate that I am (half-)joking with my perhaps indelicate remarks, and that I am both supportive and displeased/disturbed by the bad impression you got from the country - even though I am not especially affectionate to it -, not to mention by the fact that you had bad experiences in the first place, be it in Italy or elsewhere. But would your Italian friends really have bothered to do more than a perfunctory, if any, effort to terminate their utility contracts before leaving the country forever? Do they actually stand in lines any time they can avoid it? Do they feel it entirely normal to drive in countries where you are actually required to stop at red traffic lights, or perhaps feel in turn a little frustrated when this is the case? This is not a rhetorical question, I am actually curious. Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcowan5 at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 10 18:47:03 2007 From: jcowan5 at sympatico.ca (Josh Cowan) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:47:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] abandon all body language {8-] In-Reply-To: <200711101816.lAAIGlK2027700@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711101816.lAAIGlK2027700@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: Thank you Spike, that was the first full body laugh I've let out today. BTW, I view my laughing as a "good" thing. Josh snip: > spike wrote: > Oh, OK cool, thanks Vaj. I have never been worth a damn at reading > people's > body language. That's why I play chess instead of poker. In spite of > being > good at mentally calculating probabilities, I am an abysmal suckster at > sensing normal human people's intentions. I am totally non-blackberry > at > that skill. It is almost like having negative ESP, or finding oneself > at a > convention of ESP-havers when one possesses only the traditional five > senses. Most uncomfortable. When someone at a party proposes a poker > match, as soon as the first card is dealt, I hand over all my chips and > throw off my clothes, just to save time. The guests are puzzled and > amused > by this behavior. Or so I am told. I am beginning to suspect that > they > bring the poker cards just to witness my reaction. > > In a weak attempt to compensate for this tone-deafness to others' > thoughts > and intentions, I listen carefully to what people actually say. As any > normal person can easily guess, this usually leads to trouble and > misunderstanding, being as normal people seldom actually say what they > really mean. This characteristic of humans is found in every culture > and > language across the globe. Perhaps this is why I am more comfortable > and > effective in Second Life than in... what is here called? First Life? > > This technique of listening to peoples' actual words fails even worse > in > situations that rely heavily upon nonverbal communications. I have > managed > to master a few of the nonverbal cues, but I confess to understanding > only > the most broad and general ones. For instance as when a young lady > shrieks > and flees in terror, this is a bad thing. If she goes for her pepper > spray, > this is also a bad thing. If she uses it on me, this is worse. > > This has led me to certain insights that others do not have however. > For > instance, few are aware of the wide variation in the effectiveness of > the > different brands of sprays, in both debilitating power and in flavor. > I > should do an article for Consumer Reports, from the unique perspective > of > the actual "consumer" of the product. > > To conclude this line of thought is my observation that there are two > major > differences between here and Second Life. In Second Life, one can fly > without the aid of mechanical devices. And they don't even have pepper > spray there. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 10 18:37:15 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:37:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... > > Italy is recognised as having a very large 'black' economy. > The IMF reckoned that up to a third of workers are 'off the book'. > Tax evasion is a way of life for small business in Italy. > (One set of accounts for the tax man and another set for running the > business)... BillK This makes me wonder about the impact of the twin developments of eBay and PayPal. In Europe, California and other high income tax states one could run a tax-free business that could easily crush one's competitors. The governments that rely heavily upon income tax must be watching this with great concern. If governments ever manage to tax eBay and PayPal, I can imagine the evolution of a new business in which people do not actually convert purchases into eCash, but rather trade goods directly. One can currently have an eBay store for instance, filled with stuff that someone somewhere on this planet might want. In my case, I have a collection of parts for antique motorcycles that I no longer own, and I own four antique motorcycles for which parts are scarce and precious. I could imagine an eBay-like site in which people have their stores pages and wish list pages, that operate on buyer/seller reputations as does eBay. One could browse their for-sale pages and their wish lists, see if we can work out trades that never involve actual cash, e or otherwise, so they are not taxable even in theory. Some of you extropian internet jockeys, get to work on this, forthwith please. I would do it myself but I am too non-blackberry at computers. I am good at fixing up old bikes however. {8-] spike From kanzure at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 19:23:45 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:23:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711101323.45222.kanzure@gmail.com> On Saturday 10 November 2007 12:37, spike wrote: > Some of you extropian internet jockeys, get to work on this, > forthwith please. ?I would do it myself but I am too non-blackberry > at computers. ?I am good at fixing up old bikes however. ?{8-] To implement this and have it work in a timely manner, I think we might need some "virtual agents" with the ability to construct complex, multi-people trade routes, i.e. "A-B-C-D-E-F" and so on, maybe even implementing hierarchical trading goals (investment plans, so to speak), of the user. If extropian does get around to doing this, please make this an open source interface, maybe built on top of or based off of Jabber, something where we have a really 'open' market to play with. - Bryan From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Nov 10 19:24:34 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:24:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Natasha at Pecci Museum, Prato and at NABA, Milan Message-ID: <20071110192435.XTPL20155.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> I will be speaking on transhumanism at the Pecci Museum, in Prato, Italy on December 8-9. I will also be in Milan at the NABA speaking to the student body on h2.0, h+2.0 and Posthumanism on December 13th. As time gets closer I will post more detailed material to the list. If anyone is in this area, please let me know. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 19:28:29 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:28:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/07, spike wrote: > This makes me wonder about the impact of the twin developments of eBay and > PayPal. In Europe, California and other high income tax states one could > run a tax-free business that could easily crush one's competitors. The > governments that rely heavily upon income tax must be watching this with > great concern. > > If governments ever manage to tax eBay and PayPal, I can imagine the > evolution of a new business in which people do not actually convert > purchases into eCash, but rather trade goods directly. One can currently > have an eBay store for instance, filled with stuff that someone somewhere on > this planet might want. In my case, I have a collection of parts for > antique motorcycles that I no longer own, and I own four antique motorcycles > for which parts are scarce and precious. I could imagine an eBay-like site > in which people have their stores pages and wish list pages, that operate on > buyer/seller reputations as does eBay. One could browse their for-sale > pages and their wish lists, see if we can work out trades that never involve > actual cash, e or otherwise, so they are not taxable even in theory. > No chance in the UK. The Tax man is already taxing eBay dealers. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/09/ebay_uk_traders_tax_guidance/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/27/ebay_vat_robot/ A new guide has been released which tells occasional online sellers if they should be paying income tax on their profits. The guide is designed to differentiate between online traders and people who "are just clearing low value items from the attic". -------- As usual with taxable doings, you have to keep your head down below the parapet. Occasional successes are OK, too much success and the beady eye of the IRS will be drawn to you. BillK From eugen at leitl.org Sat Nov 10 19:50:08 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:50:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 10:37:15AM -0800, spike wrote: > This makes me wonder about the impact of the twin developments of eBay and > PayPal. In Europe, California and other high income tax states one could > run a tax-free business that could easily crush one's competitors. The If you're willing to do it illegally, and don't mind a criminal record, yes. If you're smart, you could register offshore (there are packages which register everything for you, so you can run a pharmacy or even a bank, but these are not that cheap), and thus have the activities not trackable to you. > governments that rely heavily upon income tax must be watching this with > great concern. In Germany, the local equivalent of INS can look in realtime at how much bank accounts you have, without a court order. In case they deem you suspicious, your entire financial track records at any local and cooperating banks will be inspected. (If you thought that's invasive, after 1. January 2009 things get much, much worse). > If governments ever manage to tax eBay and PayPal, I can imagine the Do you think eBay, PayPal & Co are not answerable to local authorities? > evolution of a new business in which people do not actually convert > purchases into eCash, but rather trade goods directly. One can currently That's simple barter. > have an eBay store for instance, filled with stuff that someone somewhere on > this planet might want. In my case, I have a collection of parts for > antique motorcycles that I no longer own, and I own four antique motorcycles > for which parts are scarce and precious. I could imagine an eBay-like site > in which people have their stores pages and wish list pages, that operate on > buyer/seller reputations as does eBay. One could browse their for-sale > pages and their wish lists, see if we can work out trades that never involve > actual cash, e or otherwise, so they are not taxable even in theory. There might be a loophole if you pay in gold coin, but recently somebody got arrested for that. > Some of you extropian internet jockeys, get to work on this, forthwith > please. I would do it myself but I am too non-blackberry at computers. I > am good at fixing up old bikes however. {8-] I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been wanting to read it since mid 1980s. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 10 21:06:00 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:06:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200711102132.lAALWKcB027640@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl ... > > > evolution of a new business in which people do not actually convert > > purchases into eCash, but rather trade goods directly. One can > currently > > That's simple barter. Ja. The goal would be to convert traditional trade to simple barter. I have bike parts for bikes I no longer own, useless to me but precious to others, and vice versa. If we trade parts, both have profited greatly, altho from the tax man's point of view there is no taxable transaction. The value of the parts can be arbitrarily defined. One can imagine agents that scan the e-stores and wish lists, then set up deals where they take a cut, in merchandise. Again this is not taxable because the actual value of the trade items is arbitrary. One could even create software that wanders around looking at stores and wish lists, trying to find matches. Consider for instance, the Suzuki Cavalcade secondary gear case. What is that worth? You cannot buy them new; they have been unavailable OEM for at least twelve years. But they do fail, often in a way that makes them not rebuildable. So the value of that part to one who needs it is equal to the value of a complete bike, in a very real sense. I have a bike now that needs one. They are difficult to steal: a good mechanic takes a half an hour to remove one, greatly increasing her risk of getting caught. But she will not steal one for you anyway, for a really good mechanic will instead rip you off by the more traditional means. I would leave that gear case permanently on my wish list. This would enable a spin-off un-taxable business that will look for cavalcades that have been crashed and totalled by the insurance company. They would go take the secondary gear case off of the wrecked bike, then trade them to me in exchange for my antique bike parts or sexual favors. ... > > I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been wanting > to read it since mid 1980s... Eugen* Leitl Be forewarned that Pirsig's masterpiece has very little to do with motorcycles. I loved that book when I was in college. spike (Kidding about that sexual favors bit. My seller's reputation would plunge dramatically when the buyer saw what she received in trade for a perfectly good secondary gear case. Nowthen, if I could work out a deal where I could give her Greg Burch, then pay him with my aerospace books, for instance, that would create a multi-win non-taxable barter deal.) From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 10 21:27:56 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:27:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] abandon all body language {8-] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711102154.lAALsHTV026663@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Josh Cowan > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 10:47 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] abandon all body language {8-] > > Thank you Spike, that was the first full body laugh I've let out today. > BTW, I view my laughing as a "good" thing. > > Josh You are too kind Josh. In response to: "... the body language which in Japan is considered to mean "leave me alone" (to recoil slightly, lowering your chin, smiling and staring at the other party)..." But they don't ever do that to me. Whenever I go to Japan, the young ladies simply say "Get away from me, you odious fleak." Then they lower the chin, smile, and go for the wasabi-flavored pepper spray. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Nov 10 23:24:04 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:24:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 11/10/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been wanting > to read it since mid 1980s. I read it in the mid-seventies, and again in the late eighties. Only book I've ever read twice. It's up at the top of my list along with Godel Escher Bach, and complementary in a way but more subtle. Highly recommended! - Jef From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 01:21:07 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:21:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <580930c20711101721m770bf351n8e49590349b40e7d@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2007 12:24 AM, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/10/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been > wanting > > to read it since mid 1980s. > > I read it in the mid-seventies, and again in the late eighties. Only > book I've ever read twice. > > It's up at the top of my list along with Godel Escher Bach, and > complementary in a way but more subtle. > Why, it looks like a few transhumanists share a few literary favourites... :-) Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 07:36:15 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:36:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes In-Reply-To: <580930c20711101721m770bf351n8e49590349b40e7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711101903.lAAJ3ZWS029565@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> <580930c20711101721m770bf351n8e49590349b40e7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711102336v1b21ea4o841666b3f9c501a@mail.gmail.com> I read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" when I was 20something and, since then, I must have read it again at least 10 times. One of my favorites ever. I also liked the followup "Lila". G. On Nov 11, 2007 2:21 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Nov 11, 2007 12:24 AM, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > > > On 11/10/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > > > I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been > wanting > > > to read it since mid 1980s. > > > > I read it in the mid-seventies, and again in the late eighties. Only > > book I've ever read twice. > > > > It's up at the top of my list along with Godel Escher Bach, and > > complementary in a way but more subtle. > > > > Why, it looks like a few transhumanists share a few literary favourites... > :-) > > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 08:37:03 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:37:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <580930c20711101036w3af371e6u767643f59f5c9c40@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20711101036w3af371e6u767643f59f5c9c40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711110037t33800b6fn5dbd5ca9d23fd5c9@mail.gmail.com> I must admit that in Amara's situation I would not have even thought of writing letters to anyone. I would just have canceled the bank account or credit card associated to the services to discontinue, and left the country without leaving a forwarding address. The "authorities" would have acted, if ever, 50 or 60 years later, which is a problem only if our immortality aspirations come true. Having left Italy 25 years ago I have gotten used to sad facts of life like having to stop at traffic lights, and it does not bother me very much anymore. But I remain a pass-on-red-when-it-is-safe in spirit and think stupid regulations should be ignored. In some years, you will be fined if you do not keep both hands on the wheel all the time. This is just too much, and I think citizens should ignore laws that are evidently stupid. It is the only way to force change. I am the first to admit that my country has many problems. But there is one thing that I am very proud of: we Italians have an instinctive disrespect for authority, know in our hearts that 99% of politics is just a make-money-fast scheme, and in general do not take bullshit seriously. The world needs more of this. A unfortunate side effect is that we don't really make big efforts at changing things. G. On Nov 10, 2007 7:36 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Nov 10, 2007 7:26 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > Cut the crap, Stefano. Italians and I both wrote the letters I used. To be > > precise: I asked my 'self-respecting Italian' colleagues and friends > > the procedures to use, they told me the procedures, I wrote the letters, > > checked with them, and sent and faxed them off. > > > > I'm kind of tired of your implying that I'm not doing anything in the > > 'self-respecting' Italian way. My colleagues and friends are ripped > > off, shafted, frustrated, twisted around by the environment around them > > too. The only difference is they have decades of getting used to it, > > they don't complain when they are ripped off, and they have extra > > and they layers of familial network to support them. > > > > Please appreciate that I am (half-)joking with my perhaps indelicate > remarks, and that I am both supportive and displeased/disturbed by the bad > impression you got from the country - even though I am not especially > affectionate to it -, not to mention by the fact that you had bad > experiences in the first place, be it in Italy or elsewhere. > > But would your Italian friends really have bothered to do more than a > perfunctory, if any, effort to terminate their utility contracts before > leaving the country forever? Do they actually stand in lines any time they > can avoid it? Do they feel it entirely normal to drive in countries where > you are actually required to stop at red traffic lights, or perhaps feel in > turn a little frustrated when this is the case? > > This is not a rhetorical question, I am actually curious. > > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From scerir at libero.it Sun Nov 11 09:51:38 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:51:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. References: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> Giovanni ha scritto: I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" evolution in terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word for our ignorance. Saying that evolution is driven by probabilistic events is not really an explanation of anything. It just shows we don't understand what really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments as the best possible way to model what we don't fully understand. # This reminds me of J. Steinbeck. "Non-teleological thinking concerns itself primarily not with what should be, or could be, or might be, but rather with what actually 'is' .... attempting at most to answer the already sufficiently difficult questions 'what' or 'how', instead of 'why' ... In the non-teleological sense there can be no 'answer'. There can be only pictures which become larger and more significant as one's horizon increases." Aristotle wrote about 'hylomorphism' (from hule = stuff, and morphe = form, information). I do not know if Aristotle thought that forms-informations were the 'evolutive' part of the stuff. But it seems possible to me. It is interesting to point out that a sort of 'hylomorphism' is, more or less, evident in fragments of modern science. In example, there is a difference between physical 'states' and the (limited) information carried by these 'states'. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212084 http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/zeilinger/foundations.pdf http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/links/newscientist/bit.html See also Wheeler's 'participatory universe'. 'All things physical are information - theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe... Observer participancy gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics.' http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/321/wheeler.pdf http://forizslaszlo.com/tudomany/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf Not to mention here Jurgen http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/ and Max http://www.arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646 Back to the bio? See this interesting entry http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=287 about deoxyribononapproximability :-) s. "The only laws of matter are those which our minds must fabricate, and the only laws of mind are fabricated for it by matter." -James Clerk Maxwell From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 14:42:21 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 06:42:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> References: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> Message-ID: I would nominate this for most profound post of the month, if we actually had such a prize. - Jef On 11/11/07, scerir wrote: > Giovanni ha scritto: > I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" > evolution in terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word > for our ignorance. Saying that evolution is driven > by probabilistic events is not really an explanation > of anything. It just shows we don't understand what > really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments > as the best possible way to model what we don't > fully understand. > > # > > This reminds me of J. Steinbeck. > "Non-teleological thinking concerns itself > primarily not with what should be, or could be, > or might be, but rather with what actually 'is' > .... attempting at most to answer the already > sufficiently difficult questions 'what' or 'how', > instead of 'why' ... In the non-teleological sense > there can be no 'answer'. There can be only pictures > which become larger and more significant as one's > horizon increases." > > Aristotle wrote about 'hylomorphism' (from hule = stuff, > and morphe = form, information). I do not know if Aristotle > thought that forms-informations were the 'evolutive' > part of the stuff. But it seems possible to me. > > It is interesting to point out that a sort of 'hylomorphism' > is, more or less, evident in fragments of modern science. > > In example, there is a difference between physical 'states' > and the (limited) information carried by these 'states'. > http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212084 > http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/zeilinger/foundations.pdf > http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/links/newscientist/bit.html > > See also Wheeler's 'participatory universe'. > 'All things physical are information - theoretic in origin > and this is a participatory universe... Observer participancy > gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics.' > http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/321/wheeler.pdf > http://forizslaszlo.com/tudomany/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf > > Not to mention here Jurgen > http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/ > and Max > http://www.arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646 > > Back to the bio? See this interesting entry > http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=287 > about deoxyribononapproximability :-) > > s. > > "The only laws of matter are those > which our minds must fabricate, > and the only laws of mind > are fabricated for it by matter." > -James Clerk Maxwell > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 11 16:28:08 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:28:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> Message-ID: <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir > Subject: Re: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. > > Giovanni ha scritto: > I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" > evolution in terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word > for our ignorance. Saying that evolution is driven > by probabilistic events is not really an explanation > of anything. It just shows we don't understand what > really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments > as the best possible way to model what we don't > fully understand. > > # This discussion needs to bring in Steven Jay Gould's notion of contingency as a factor in evolution. Gould's concepts are sometimes described as the role of chance, however his use of contingency can better be described as being the opposite of Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's notion of parallel evolution. Roddenberry suggested that given two similar planets, with about a 1G field, about 1 atm pressure and similar chemical composition in both the air and land, mostly water on the surface, etc, both planets would eventually evolve humanoid lifeforms. Gould's notion was the opposite: given the same initial conditions, the two planets would evolve *completely different* lifeforms. The evolutionary paths would be unpredictable, with unpredictable outcomes. In my thinking, Roddenberry's notion is only good for explaining why it is that on his show, all the aliens look like humans except with the pointy ears or the wrinkly forehead. Gould was right. Evolution can be better understood with the ideas developed by chaos theory. It is unpredictable. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 17:33:09 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:33:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > Gould's notion was the opposite: given the same initial conditions, the two > planets would evolve *completely different* lifeforms. The evolutionary > paths would be unpredictable, with unpredictable outcomes. In my thinking, > Roddenberry's notion is only good for explaining why it is that on his show, > all the aliens look like humans except with the pointy ears or the wrinkly > forehead. Gould was right. Evolution can be better understood with the > ideas developed by chaos theory. It is unpredictable. I have big problems with Gould and his position, but for now I'd like to point out that while evolutionary outcomes are unpredictable as to specifics -- being the only processes generating persistent novelty -- they are not random. Evolution is popularly misconceived as dependent entirely on random mutation, but actually the synergistic recombination of building blocks that worked before plays a much more significant role. Any initial "random" structure imposes constraints on what can be supported by it. Evolution is like a tree whose trunk of increasing probability supports branches exploring increasing possibility. But the new branches cannot be entirely random, for to persist they must be exhibit consistency. - Jef From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 11 17:08:12 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:08:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200711111734.lABHYWeW017911@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl ... spike: > > .... I would do it myself but I am too non-blackberry at computers. I > > am good at fixing up old bikes however. {8-] > > I'm reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Have been wanting > to read it since mid 1980s... Eugen Leitl For years we thought there was only one surviving photo of Pirsig's bike, the one on the inside dust cover of the original book. I recently found there are about a dozen from the trip: http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/Pictures-Robert-P irsigs-original-1968-trip?page=1 Cool! Some sources claim Pirsig rode a CB360. This is incorrect, the CB360 wasn't produced until nine years later. It is an example of an error in an early source that was carelessly replicated countless times, like a faulty gene embedding itself into an evolving genome, causing untold suffering. Pirsig and his (late) son Chris rode a 1967 model BC77 Superhawk, a 305 cc twin, which makes their cross country trek all the more heroic. http://www.honda305.com/superhawk/ I have been looking for a good original superhawk for years, one that I can restore and add the aftermarket white panniers (good luck in finding those) so that I could attempt to ride it on a 40th anniversary retracing of Pirsig's ZMM route next summer. I don't think it will happen, because those who have a good original 67 superhawk know what they own, and want skerjillions for it. If I thought of it, there are probably unwashed masses of Pirsig fans searching for 67 superhawks, devouring them off of eBay, running up the price. Some yahoo has a buy-it-now price of over 3200 bucks. {8-[ spike From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 17:36:29 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:36:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: Correction: Added a key qualifier. On 11/11/07, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > > > Gould's notion was the opposite: given the same initial conditions, the two > > planets would evolve *completely different* lifeforms. The evolutionary > > paths would be unpredictable, with unpredictable outcomes. In my thinking, > > Roddenberry's notion is only good for explaining why it is that on his show, > > all the aliens look like humans except with the pointy ears or the wrinkly > > forehead. Gould was right. Evolution can be better understood with the > > ideas developed by chaos theory. It is unpredictable. > I have big problems with Gould and his position, but for now I'd like to point out that while evolutionary outcomes are unpredictable as to specifics -- being the only processes generating persistent novelty -- they are not entirely random. Evolution is popularly misconceived as dependent entirely on random mutation, but actually the synergistic recombination of building blocks that worked before plays a much more significant role. Any initial "random" structure imposes constraints on what can be supported by it. Evolution is like a tree whose trunk of increasing probability supports branches exploring increasing possibility. But the new branches cannot be entirely random, for to persist they must be exhibit consistency. - Jef From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Nov 11 18:04:06 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:04:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > >> Gould's notion was the opposite: given the same initial conditions, the two >> planets would evolve *completely different* lifeforms. The evolutionary >> paths would be unpredictable, with unpredictable outcomes. In my thinking, >> Roddenberry's notion is only good for explaining why it is that on his show, >> all the aliens look like humans except with the pointy ears or the wrinkly >> forehead. Gould was right. Evolution can be better understood with the >> ideas developed by chaos theory. It is unpredictable. > I think Gould is right, but it's hard to accept when I look at the Emerald Treeboa (Corallus caninus) and the Green Tree Python (Morelia viridis). They certainly are not the same but they sure do *look* similar at first glance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corallus_caninus and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Tree_Python Regards, MB From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 18:10:34 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:10:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, MB wrote: > I think Gould is right, but it's hard to accept... MB, does this mean you accept the weight of perceived authority over the weight of perceived merits, or what? - Jef From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Nov 11 18:22:52 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:22:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <39514.72.236.102.123.1194805372.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > On 11/11/07, MB wrote: > >> I think Gould is right, but it's hard to accept... > > MB, does this mean you accept the weight of perceived authority over > the weight of perceived merits, or what? > I mean that Gould has *way* more knowledge and expertise than *I* do, and just because these two snakes *look* similar does not mean they *are* similar. I do know that they GTP and ETB are quite different once you get below their color and resting-coiling style. ;) I defer to Gould's authority in this area. But one could easily be misled by appearances. Regards, MB From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 18:39:55 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:39:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711111734.lABHYWeW017911@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <20071110195008.GR4005@leitl.org> <200711111734.lABHYWeW017911@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > I have been looking for a good original superhawk for years, one that I can > restore and add the aftermarket white panniers (good luck in finding those) > so that I could attempt to ride it on a 40th anniversary retracing of > Pirsig's ZMM route next summer. I would love to make that trip, but only with a very small group, or the spirit would be entirely lost. - Jef From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 11 19:48:14 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:48:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Subject: Re: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > > > I have been looking for a good original superhawk for years, one that I can > > restore and add the aftermarket white panniers (good luck in finding > those) > > so that I could attempt to ride it on a 40th anniversary retracing of > > Pirsig's ZMM route next summer. > > I would love to make that trip, but only with a very small group, or > the spirit would be entirely lost. > > - Jef OK tell ya what Jef, find someone willing to ride the 1964* CB77 superhawk, you can ride Pirsig's buddy John's 1967 model R60 beemer, I will ride the cavalcade, and we three can ride across Montana and wax philosophical every evening over beer. But this time without going crazy at the end. We would need to get Damien, as he would be the ideal candidate to write it for us. spike *Apologies biker extropians: in an earlier post I accidentally said 1967 superhawk, but now I remembered that Pirsig's bike was actually a (mechanically nearly identical) 1964 model brought to you by Mr. Soichiro Honda (with an aftermarket handlebar) as can be seen by the shape of the knee pads on the sides of the tank and the length of the front fender. From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 11 20:55:43 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:55:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's and contingency in evolution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711112122.lABLM368024415@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > I would love to make that trip, but only with a very small group, or > the spirit would be entirely lost. > > - Jef I have a notion which will tie together the two currently most active threads, evolution and ZMM, along with an entertaining story. In some ways, memes in a human brain are analogous to evolving lifeforms. Memes compete, they reproduce, they change over time. The analogy kinda works if it isn't pushed too hard. Seemingly random events can occur which radically change the memeset environment in a brain. An accident, meeting a certain person, reading a certain book for instance, is analogous to an ecosystem in equilibrium, suddenly punctuated by a period of massive change; sometimes brought on by an extraordinary event such as a meteor impact, sometimes it just happens for mysterious reasons. Think of the books that you have read that had the most significant or biggest impact on your memeset, and divide them by the decade in which they were written (not necessarily the decade in which you read the book). For me it would be 50s: Kerouac's On The Road 60s: Persig's Zen 70s: Hafstadter's Godel Escher Bach (a lot of us will pick that one) 80s: Engines of Creation by the K.Eric, or Surely You're Joking by Feynman 90s: The Spike by Damien 00s: the decade isn't over. Greenspan's Age of Turbulence is a contenduh Nowthen, think of how you actually stumbled upon the book. Was it the result of a logical predictable course of events? Or did it just happen in some unpredictable way? Looking at my above list, I came upon Engines of Creation while browsing thru the science section at Borders. I thought it was a book about creationism, perhaps misfiled in the science section when it should be in the religion section. Turns out I looked it over, realized it was in the right place, but my mind wasn't. Read that book blew my mind back onto course. Finding it was a complete accident. Now here's the fun story. When I was in college in 1982, I was riding an old junkyard dog, a 1964 model BSA thunderbolt that needed a lot of TLC, assuming that TLC cost approximately nothing. I went to the college library hoping to find some source material. In their very few books about motorcycle maintenance, someone had misfiled Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Zen? Who is Zen? Never heard of him. Never heard of Pirsig, never heard mention of the book. I picked it up, saw the black and white photo of Pirsig on his 64 CB77 superhawk on the inside jacket, an image that is still burned into my retinas. Cool, thought I, my buddy used to have one of those. As I began to read, I immediately saw it wasn't really about motorcycles, and the author clearly knew little about bikes. He went on an on about his old bike needing this and that. Well, his "old" bike was only four years old, way newer than anything I had ever owned. My most nearly roadworthy bike was a creaky 18 years old by then. Everything Mr. Zen said regarding motorcycles was silly or inaccurate in some way, but the philosophy rang true, blew my mind wide open. It was far cheaper and legaller than LDS. That book caused me to develop from the hopelessly L7 stuck-in-squaresville retro geekmeister to the man I am today, a totally grokful with-it groovy mod hipster geekmeister. All this because someone punctuated my memetic equilibrium by misfiling a book. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 21:05:40 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:05:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > OK tell ya what Jef, find someone willing to ride the 1964* CB77 superhawk, > you can ride Pirsig's buddy John's 1967 model R60 beemer, I will ride the > cavalcade, and we three can ride across Montana and wax philosophical every > evening over beer. But this time without going crazy at the end. We would > need to get Damien, as he would be the ideal candidate to write it for us. I'm fully prepared to begin considering the necessary logistics, which for me would be mainly reliable web access to for a daily dose of work-related activity. - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 11 21:28:27 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:28:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's and contingency in evolution In-Reply-To: <200711112122.lABLM368024415@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711112122.lABLM368024415@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > true, blew my mind wide open. It was far cheaper and legaller than LDS. Spike, stay away from the LDS and the young men in the white shirts who push it. That stuff will mess up your mind! - Jef From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 22:05:07 2007 From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:05:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> References: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, scerir wrote: > > This reminds me of J. Steinbeck. > "Non-teleological thinking concerns itself > primarily not with what should be, or could be, > or might be, but rather with what actually 'is' > .... attempting at most to answer the already > sufficiently difficult questions 'what' or 'how', > instead of 'why' ... In the non-teleological sense > there can be no 'answer'. There can be only pictures > which become larger and more significant as one's > horizon increases." If we're referencing Aristotle here, what about the other four causes? Aren't efficient causes, material causes, and formal causes also explanations and answers to the question "why"? The only thing teleology says is that some natural purpose for the thing is the explanation for that thing and how it develops. For example, the hand was developed because of our need for grasping things, or the sexual drive was developed because for the sake of reproduction. While this kind of thinking is easy to entertain, the theory of evolution contradicts it. Thanks for your comments, Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 12 00:58:13 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:58:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Subject: Re: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > > > OK tell ya what Jef, find someone willing to ride the 1964* CB77 > superhawk, > > you can ride Pirsig's buddy John's 1967 model R60 beemer... > > I'm fully prepared to begin considering the necessary logistics, which > for me would be mainly reliable web access to for a daily dose of > work-related activity. > > - Jef Ah yes. Web access to enable you to work. While in pursuit the ethereal quality of truth, via introspective exploration of the very Metaphysics of Quality. Jef, honest pal, I don't think you will discover your inner Phaedrus in such manner. Pirsig himself would be spinning in his grave. Wait, is Pirsig still with us? He would be coming up on 80 by now, but I never heard that he had passed away. Anyone here know him or where he is currently residing? For that matter it occurred to me today that his bike may still be out there somewhere. It might be under a blanket in a barn somewhere in Montana. It would be worth a cool fortune. Possibly more than Steinbeck's Rocinante. spike From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 02:58:23 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:58:23 +0800 Subject: [ExI] To be or not to be, that is the question Message-ID: <944947f20711111858y1b064149ne2df4d64be30ce7c@mail.gmail.com> "Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer; The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them? To die: to sleep" (from Hamlet 3/1 ) Now I'm no literary critic. I could not help to be reminded however of this most famous snippet of Shakespearean writing when working on putting together a set of axiomatic beliefs on which the core belief of my friendly AI theoryis founded on: that is good what increases fitness. Inspired by a commenton famous geek site Slashdot.org I sat down to do the following: - write down a strongly held belief => "That is good what increases fitness." - write down the set of "sub-beliefs" that I have which form the basis of my belief - iterate above steps, applying the same process to each belief listed The result was very interesting. Soon I realized that the listed beliefs started to contradict each other so I had to think deeper and rewrite some of them. That lead to new insights and resulted in a set of 40 beliefs. Some of them are trivial and some of them are interesting. Most axiomatic however is the following belief: 1.2.3.2 To exist is preferable over not to exist To be, or not to be, that is the question. Is that not the metaphorical question implicitly posed by reality on every living thing: 'Can you exist?' Over the course of evolution this question was first asked and answered passively on the chemical level and later actively 'pondered' on the cognitive level to avoid reality taking its toll. With the realization that what is good is what increases fitness one can start to actively as well as consciously look into developing strategies for ensured continued existence. Averting the rise of a non-friendly AI then becomes but one of many existential risks . from: http://jame5.com -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michaelanissimov at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 03:12:52 2007 From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:12:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <39514.72.236.102.123.1194805372.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <39514.72.236.102.123.1194805372.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <51ce64f10711111912n614fabb0q558d45aaba1e5b5c@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2007 10:22 AM, MB wrote: > > I defer to Gould's authority in this area. > Regarding Gould, everyone should read this: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/beware-of-gould.html -- Michael Anissimov Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com http://acceleratingfuture.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 12 03:31:51 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:31:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike ... > > For that matter it occurred to me today that his bike may still be out > there > somewhere. It might be under a blanket in a barn somewhere in Montana. > It > would be worth a cool fortune. Possibly more than Steinbeck's Rocinante. Perhaps this is understandable that I flubbed a major detail, since it has been 25 years (this month!) since I read the book. I reviewed this evening and recalled that altho there were crises in Montana, Pirsig and his son managed to make it all the way to San Francisco, where he hurriedly sold the bike. That means that bike might still be around here somewhere, right in my own back yard. This is my new aspiration to greatness, the quest for the Holy Honda. I want to find Pirsig's CB77 that he rode from Chicago to San Francisco, that lost sacred relic possibly suffering now in the hands of some low-quality young heathern, who perhaps refers contemptuously to the priceless object as a non-blackberry motorcycle. In the mean time, I will reread ZMM in order to more fully be able to enter discussions with Gene and the other ZMM virgins out there, those fortunate souls who have never read ZMM but are starting now on a wonderful journey of discovery. I suggest that one get in the mental zone, rev up one's concentration before starting, for ZMM is not a breezy travelogue, no bathroom fluff is this, but rather it is a philosophical deep mine that requires disciplined concentration to extract the profound memetic riches therein. There is a ton of good extropian-ish stuff in there too. If you haven't time to dedicate to such a tome, I recommend taking a chapter or section, read and understand that, then come back for comment. Put ZMM somewhere in the subject line, so that non-ZMMers can move on, while we pity the poor souls, never knowing what they are missing. Think Quality. spike ps Is Max More out there? Isn't he a professor of philosophy? If so, he surely would have studied ZMM and perhaps has some enlightening commentary, ja? From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 12 04:08:15 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:08:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Gould In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10711111912n614fabb0q558d45aaba1e5b5c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <39514.72.236.102.123.1194805372.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <51ce64f10711111912n614fabb0q558d45aaba1e5b5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071111220633.02194ba0@satx.rr.com> At 07:12 PM 11/11/2007 -0800, Michael Anissimov wrote: >Regarding Gould, everyone should read this: > >http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/beware-of-gould.html > Everyone should also carefully read Professor Barkley Rosser's several comments thereunder. Damien Broderick From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 04:27:13 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:27:13 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Gould In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071111220633.02194ba0@satx.rr.com> References: <000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <39504.72.236.102.123.1194804246.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <39514.72.236.102.123.1194805372.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <51ce64f10711111912n614fabb0q558d45aaba1e5b5c@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071111220633.02194ba0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <944947f20711112027g23fa12b7ycfe5bf5a131d6f06@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2007 12:08 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:12 PM 11/11/2007 -0800, Michael Anissimov wrote: > > >Regarding Gould, everyone should read this: > > > > > http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/beware-of-gould.html > > > > Everyone should also carefully read Professor Barkley Rosser's > several comments thereunder. The paper Prof. Barkley referred to in his comments was written by Joseph Henrich who's work can be found at http://www.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/home.html -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 04:57:46 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:57:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <200711111654.lABGsU7a020329@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <196875.18627.qm@web31308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Right, what Spike mentioned is in the line of what I meant (expressed in more eloquent words) and please if anybody can show me how to calculate the probability of survival of a black bear in the artic versus a white one, let me know....I will like to learn to do similar calculations... Also why orange cats are orange? Is that a good coat to hunt in candy-land? It is silly to try to explain everything (in particular complex human behavior, motivations and desires) with a simplicistic and reductionistic chain of reasoning as: this random event happened that selected this particular trait because of a higher probability of survival for individuals with this trait and so on... the elementary school description of the evolutionary process I understand well, lol, but sorry it seems very silly to use it to explain why I watch this tv show instead of that other one... And yes while the instances of adaptation are examples of the evolutionary process the overall process that we call evolution is the entire history of life on the planet and of this there is just one example (even if we can speculate and imagine how evolution could unfold on other planets, such exercise is more fantasy than real science until we can get data to compare with our speculations). spike wrote: > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir > Subject: Re: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. > > Giovanni ha scritto: > I think it is kind of silly to try to "explain" > evolution in terms of "chance". Chance is a code-word > for our ignorance. Saying that evolution is driven > by probabilistic events is not really an explanation > of anything. It just shows we don't understand what > really goes on and we recur to statistical arguments > as the best possible way to model what we don't > fully understand. > > # This discussion needs to bring in Steven Jay Gould's notion of contingency as a factor in evolution. Gould's concepts are sometimes described as the role of chance, however his use of contingency can better be described as being the opposite of Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's notion of parallel evolution. Roddenberry suggested that given two similar planets, with about a 1G field, about 1 atm pressure and similar chemical composition in both the air and land, mostly water on the surface, etc, both planets would eventually evolve humanoid lifeforms. Gould's notion was the opposite: given the same initial conditions, the two planets would evolve *completely different* lifeforms. The evolutionary paths would be unpredictable, with unpredictable outcomes. In my thinking, Roddenberry's notion is only good for explaining why it is that on his show, all the aliens look like humans except with the pointy ears or the wrinkly forehead. Gould was right. Evolution can be better understood with the ideas developed by chaos theory. It is unpredictable. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 12 05:56:23 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:56:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <196875.18627.qm@web31308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711120556.lAC5u2vI005334@andromeda.ziaspace.com> ________________________________________ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni santost >... if anybody can show me how to calculate the probability of survival of a black bear in the artic versus a white one, let me know....I will like to learn to do similar calculations... As would we all, Giovanni. If anyone knew how to accurately calculate this kind of thing, we would be able to write reasonable simulations of ecosystems, and then run them long enough to simulate evolution, a scientific holy grail. If we figure out how to write a high fidelity sim of evolution, we are within minutes of the singularity, because it would be able to sim the past, right through the present, arbitrarily far into the future. Simulating evolution in software must therefore be inherently difficult, as in solving a system of ill conditioned nonlinear dynamic equations, or simulating chaotic systems. Although it has its Lorenz attractors, life may be analogous to Anosov diffeomorphism, chaotic everywhere, inherently ill suited to being reduced to mathematical equations, thus holding us maddeningly dependent upon verbiage in its description, suffering the inescapable ambiguity of meaning associated with language. Dammit. {8-[ spike From max at maxmore.com Mon Nov 12 09:34:22 2007 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:34:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071112093504.KGES9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> At 09:31 PM 11/11/2007, Spike wrote: >ps Is Max More out there? Isn't he a professor of philosophy? If so, he >surely would have studied ZMM and perhaps has some enlightening commentary, >ja? I'm not Max More, but I've been known to play him on TV... I read ZMM many years ago, so my memories are quite dusty. I do recall that, although I quite enjoyed it, it didn't excite me at all philosophically. I vaguely recall Pirsig being fascinated with Plato, whose thinking I have never found remotely appealing. The specifically extropic aspects of the book escape me (unless "quality" can be construed as extropy), but I'd be happy to be (re-)enlightened on this point. Max Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 10:23:00 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:23:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] To be or not to be, that is the question In-Reply-To: <944947f20711111858y1b064149ne2df4d64be30ce7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <944947f20711111858y1b064149ne2df4d64be30ce7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711120223v20cd3af8u3cb67fe84a11a104@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2007 3:58 AM, Stefan Pernar wrote: > The result was very interesting. Soon I realized that the listed beliefs > started to contradict each other so I had to think deeper and rewrite some > of them. That lead to new insights and resulted in a set of 40 beliefs. Some > of them are trivial and some of them are interesting. Most axiomatic however > is the following belief: > > 1.2.3.2 To exist is preferable over not to exist I think this is an interesting effort, because so much of the axiology behind different options is left implicit, and while I do not believe for a moment that such proceedings may lead to universal consensus, at least they clarify what is implied by different positions, logical consistency being a hardly disputable value in most conceivable systems. Concerning the axiom 1.2.3.2, I think however that it should be dissected further. Should it be qualified by adding "all other things being equal"? (In fact, Hamlet chooses *not* to exist, or at least to face substantial existential risks, because he cannot bear the current status of things). And existence of *whom*? The subject speaking? How can this subject be understood? As his or her genes whispering? At an individual level? At a political level? At a "universal" level? And "universal" what would refer to what exactly? Currently living human beings? The mankind as a species? The mankind, including possibly speciated successors thereto? A species leaving a radically different progeny behind should be considered as "extinct" or as "evolved"?Would successors here mean only biological successors of "children of the mind" would qualify as well? And I could continue with regard to possible different meanings of "existence"... All that is not a purely theoretical game, because it involves different and sometimes diverging strategies and concerns... Stefano Vaj From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 12 10:34:21 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:34:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > Ah yes. Web access to enable you to work. While in pursuit the ethereal > quality of truth, via introspective exploration of the very Metaphysics of > Quality. > > Jef, honest pal, I don't think you will discover your inner Phaedrus in such > manner. Pirsig himself would be spinning in his grave. Yes, well, point taken. Just not sure how to handle it without disappointing clients and customers. Will have to think outside the tesseract. - Jef From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:04:59 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:04:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/07, spike wrote: > Jef, honest pal, I don't think you will discover your inner Phaedrus in such > manner. Pirsig himself would be spinning in his grave. Wait, is Pirsig > still with us? He would be coming up on 80 by now, but I never heard that > he had passed away. Anyone here know him or where he is currently residing? > The web says he is still alive. Tim Adams speaks to the author in Boston Sunday November 19, 2006 Commentary on the interview BillK From sti at pooq.com Mon Nov 12 13:49:39 2007 From: sti at pooq.com (sti at pooq.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:49:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> <200711081706.42204.kanzure@gmail.com> <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <473859F3.1040807@pooq.com> Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 05:06 PM 11/8/2007, Bryan Bishop wrote: > >> For a while now I have been thinking that it would be feasible and >> useful to construct a "roadmap" of scientific and technological >> research that (objectively) examines the state of the art in H+ related >> research fields, whether AI, nano, cryo, neuro, astro, cloning, etc. I >> have always correlated H+ with open source software and technologies, >> this being the natural next step out of the many possible steps. This reminds me of a related project I have had on the back burner for some time. A while ago I worked on a design for an online collaborative system designed to let transhumanists create an H+ 'tech graph'. The intent would be to have something halfway between a wiki and an org chart that would attempt to show which future developments depended on which others. If nothing else, I hoped it would codify where folks disagree as to which developments would be created when. From brent.allsop at comcast.net Mon Nov 12 17:06:39 2007 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:06:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: <473859F3.1040807@pooq.com> References: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> <200711081706.42204.kanzure@gmail.com> <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <473859F3.1040807@pooq.com> Message-ID: <4738881F.3070905@comcast.net> I think the critical part of any such endeavor, would be a polling system. Many people will have different points of view about every little thing. I believe you have to be able to select a set of experts that you trust, and then see what the majority of them believe. That will become your "Canon". Once you get the individual parts "canonized" you can construct higher level position statements based on the "Canonized" details, and so on. And that is precicely the goal of canonizer.com. It is a wiki system and polling system combined. And you can select which experts you trust, via a "canonizer" - then sort and filter things accordingly. Not all of this is implemented yet, the small team of volunteers is working as fast as we can. And you can include any kind of textual or graphical or html link structural relationship in the wiki text camp statements. Brent Allsop sti at pooq.com wrote: > Natasha Vita-More wrote: > >> At 05:06 PM 11/8/2007, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> >> >>> For a while now I have been thinking that it would be feasible and >>> useful to construct a "roadmap" of scientific and technological >>> research that (objectively) examines the state of the art in H+ related >>> research fields, whether AI, nano, cryo, neuro, astro, cloning, etc. I >>> have always correlated H+ with open source software and technologies, >>> this being the natural next step out of the many possible steps. >>> > > This reminds me of a related project I have had on the back burner for some > time. A while ago I worked on a design for an online collaborative system > designed to let transhumanists create an H+ 'tech graph'. The intent would be > to have something halfway between a wiki and an org chart that would attempt > to show which future developments depended on which others. If nothing else, I > hoped it would codify where folks disagree as to which developments would be > created when. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Mon Nov 12 16:53:27 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:53:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. References: <182501.8499.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com><000601c82448$77810ad0$cd901f97@archimede> Message-ID: <000301c8254c$8e2aa200$db941f97@archimede> > > This reminds me of J. Steinbeck. > > "Non-teleological thinking concerns itself > > primarily not with what should be, or could be, > > or might be, but rather with what actually 'is' > > .... attempting at most to answer the already > > sufficiently difficult questions 'what' or 'how', > > instead of 'why' ... In the non-teleological sense > > there can be no 'answer'. There can be only pictures > > which become larger and more significant as one's > > horizon increases." [from 'Log From the Sea of Cortez'] Kevin: > If we're referencing Aristotle here, what about > the other four causes? Aren't efficient causes, > material causes, and formal causes also explanations > and answers to the question "why"? Bertrand Russell wrote, in a 1912/13 paper, 'On the Notion of Cause', that 'The law of causality, I believe, like much that passes muster among philosophers, is a relic of a bygone age, surviving, like the monarchy, only because it is erroneously supposed to do no harm'. [*] The concept of causality - in the sense of causality 'in time' - has specific problems. Here is one. There is a general agreement that, 'explaining' the two-entangled-photon interference, it is incorrect to say that the experimenter's arbitrary choice of measuring (the position *or* the momentum of) the idler photon somehow *caused* a specific collapse of the signal photon wavepacket. Only nonlocal, instantaneous, and *uncaused* correlations-at-a-distance are predicted by the theory. *However* whether or not signal photon interference fringes, in coincidence detection, show up, *depends* on the arbitrary choice by the experimenter of measuring, even *in the future* (delayed choice), (the position or the momentum of) the idler photon. So, the behaviour of the signal photon depends on the specific measurement performed, *at a later time*, on the idler photon. (The possibility of superluminal signals, or backwards causality, is under investigation. But there are several problems - i.e. the complementarity between single-photon and two-photon interferences, in other words the size of the source of the entangled photons is relevant - which make this tests difficult, or even impossible in principle). (Notice also that, to criticize FTL propagation, the argument that, in a given reference frame, the only criterion for saying that an event is the cause of another one, is the time ordering in that frame, does not appear so strong, at least when the events happen in different places, in the same reference frame. If A represents the emission of a signal and B its reception, It is possible consider A the cause of B not just because it happened at an earlier time, but mainly because the opposite would be unbelievable, given a certain specific context.) Stories like the above gave life to a different concept of causality: the statistical causality (I think there is something on the book of Judea Pearl on causality). According to (my interpretation!) of the statistical causality, the primitive and irreducible concept is the 'correlation', the statistical correlation between two (or more) events. You cannot 'explain' these correlations in more primitive terms (this is true in the quantum domain; it can be wrong in different fields like sociology, economy, ...). You cannot 'explain' the correlations in terms of space, in terms of time, in terms of possible hidden variables. Even the 'ignorance interpretation' by Einstein - according to which chance and randomness are apparent, they are only the manifestation of our 'ignorance' - seems to be inconsistent, if there are no hidden variables, no space, no time. Now, a question arises (because I'm ignorant about that). What sort of causation does the doctrine of evolution, based on some essential randomness, presuppose? I'm inclined to think that the concept of statistical causality might play some role here. Another interesting point would be the following. What kind of essential randomness does the doctrine of evolution presuppose? 'What appears to be more frightening: a clocklike universe which is totally governed by deterministic laws, or a lawless universe which is totally unpredictable and random?' asked Karl Svozil. http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~svozil/publ/2000-vreal.htm >From the microphysics we know there is a brilliant mixture of randomness and determinism. No total randomness (it would mean total chaos, pure uncomputability, etc.), no total determinism (it would mean complete nonlocality, possible triviality in the propagation of information, no role for chance, etc.). It seems that such a brilliant mixture of randomness and determinism produced a good (or the best possible?) environment for the evolution (of the inanimate and animate world). As you can see there are several uncertainties. It seems (to me) that causal explanations cannot give 100% satisfactory answers to questions like 'what' or 'how', not to mention 'why'. > The only thing teleology says is that some natural > purpose for the thing is the explanation for that > thing and how it develops. For example, the hand was > developed because of our need for grasping things, > or the sexual drive was developed because for the sake > of reproduction. While this kind of thinking is easy > to entertain, the theory of evolution contradicts it. Yes, I agree, the doctrine of teleological causation is something obscure. Only Aristotle could apply it now, safely :-) But there are problems that I still see unsolved. In example. I cannot imagine what principles are at work in this universe, but there is a smooth transition from an entropic 'hardware' (thermodynamics for inanimate objects) and a neg-entropic 'software' (neg-entropy, or extropy, is evident in the behaviour of the animate objects). No question that theorems do hold anyway (neg-entropy must equal entropy). Nevertheless this smooth, looong transition means that unknown principles are working here (concentration of the available information? Chaitin complexity vs Heisenberg principle? flight to quality? what else?). No doubt that Zurek is already studying all that! http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/bib/nf/z/wjcchhzr.htm Better stop here this 'delirium'. s. ----------------------------------------- [*] Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews 2007-11-06 Huw Price and Richard Corry (eds.), Causation, Physics, and the Constitution of Reality: Russell's Republic Revisited, Oxford University Press, 2007, 403pp., $35.00 (pbk), ISBN 9780199278190. Reviewed by Marc Lange, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, .... This is an excellent collection of papers concerning the ontological status of causal relations in light of the microworld revealed by physics. The contributors are Arif Ahmed, Helen Beebee, Richard Corry, Antony Eagle, Adam Elga, Mathias Frisch, Christopher Hitchcock, Douglas Kutach, Barry Loewer, Peter Menzies, John Norton, Huw Price, and Jim Woodward. The volume's sub-title ("Russell's Republic Revisited") alludes to Bertrand Russell's much-quoted remark comparing the "law of causality" to the monarchy as a "relic of a bygone age, surviving . . . only because it is erroneously supposed to do no harm."[1] Unlike Russell, all of this volume's contributors emphasize the value of causal judgments, especially in practical deliberation (which presupposes the distinction between "effective" and "ineffective" strategies for causally influencing the future).[2] The contributors disagree about whether there are causal relations throughout the microphysical world, or only in certain special parts of it, or only when certain parts are considered in isolation from the rest, or not really at all. Price and Corry situate many of the contributors as rejecting a "monarchist" metaphysical primitivism regarding causation as well as an "anarchist" Russellian eliminativism in favor of some form of "causal republicanism" according to which We, the People -- whether through our special interests, our limited powers of observation and control, or our perspectives as agents -- are partly responsible for the existence (so to say) of causal relations or, at least, for the utility of causal judgments. Inevitably, I cannot try to summarize all of these stimulating papers or all of the fascinating issues they raise. I must be content with giving just a few of the many highlights. Norton ("Causation as Folk Science") argues that various folk causal theories in physics (and common sense), though strictly false, are heuristically useful in certain limited applications, just as heat behaves in many respects as if it were a conserved flowing substance. Caloric and causes are in some sense real: they are not wholly fictional (like unicorns) but they do not belong to fundamental ontology. (I'll return to Norton in a moment.) Eagle ("Pragmatic Causation") and Menzies ("Causation in Context") agree with Norton in denying that causal relations belong to fundamental ontology. Whereas Norton argues that the utility of folk causal theories (like the rough accuracy of caloric theory) can be derived by applying fundamental physics to a circumscribed range of cases, Eagle and Menzies argue that causal ascriptions fail to supervene on non-causal facts because they depend on which factors can be ignored and which behaviors count as defaults in a given conversational context. Of course, it is tempting to reply that certain factors can be ignored precisely because they are not among the causes of those things we are interested in, and likewise that a certain behavior is the default for a given system precisely because the system behaves in that way when no external causes are acting upon it. Menzies replies that it would be inadvisable to see this kind of worry as a reason to reject this model of causal reasoning because the kind of default reasoning that this model deems central to causal reasoning is also central to many of our best scientific theories (from Newtonian mechanics to population biology). "Consequently, the rejection of the kind of default causal reasoning described in this paper would necessitate the rejection of the reasoning embedded in some of our best scientific theories" (p. 222). But to reject a philosophical theory according to which causal ascriptions are made true partly by context-sensitive defaults (rather than the other way around) is not to reject default reasoning or the scientific theories that employ it. Norton argues that centuries of failed attempts to formulate a principle of causality, robustly true under the introduction of new scientific theories, have left the notion of causation so plastic that virtually any new science can be made to conform to it. Such a plastic notion fails to restrict possibility and is physically empty. (p. 12) To show that "[e]ven quite simple Newtonian systems can harbor uncaused events and ones for which the theory cannot even supply probabilities" (p. 22), Norton offers a wonderfully provocative new example of indeterminism in classical mechanics: a point particle perched at the apex of a frictionless domed surface in a uniform gravitational field, where the dome is cunningly shaped so that Newton's laws are obeyed not only if the body remains at the apex forever, but also if it remains there until some arbitrary moment and then no longer. The body just takes off down the hill for no reason -- without its having even had some determinate chance of taking off at that moment.[3] One might try to turn this example against Norton by arguing that if (as Norton says) a body acting under the influence of such a force in classical physics cannot be interpreted in causal terms, then a "principle of causality" does indeed "place a restriction on the factual content of a science" (p. 15) since it rules out such a force, given the classical dynamical laws. Therefore, a principle of causality must not be as empty as Norton claims. Norton might reply that such a restriction would be "a kind of a priori science that tries to legislate in advance how the world must be" (p. 15). But why should such a principle of causality, limiting the range of possible force functions, be any more a priori than the rest of classical physics?[4] Woodward ("Causation with a Human Face") and Hitchcock ("What Russell Got Right") note that on an interventionist or manipulationist account, some of the ordinary presuppositions for the application of causal notions are not satisfied by the universe taken globally, to which the notion of an intervention from outside is inapplicable. Folk causal models of the kind described by Norton best fit subsystems that can be treated for our purposes as isolated from a great deal of their surroundings. Elga ("Isolation and Folk Physics") aims to identify the features of the fundamental natural laws that make so many ordinary subsystems amenable to such treatment. Roughly speaking, the behaviors of distant things make only small differences to the medium-sized objects that we tend to care about, and those small differences are unlikely to pull in a consistent direction (given the fundamental probability distribution over the possible microrealizers of the universe's initial low-entropy macrostate) and so are unlikely to affect the rough macroscopic behaviors of those objects. Thus, a folk model can succeed by characterizing a subsystem's default behavior and how it can be disturbed by interactions with only a few other subsystems. Folk causal models can even encompass systems that are sensitive to small differences (and hence to many distant factors) by including objective chances, which themselves are insensitive to such small differences. Notice, though, that in giving this account, Elga uses causal notions. For instance, the fundamental probability distribution over the universe's possible initial conditions "counts it as unlikely that small differences in forces would affect the rough behavior of" a given macroscopic object (p. 110). I wonder: Does that use of causal vocabulary also fall under the account being given? Price ("Causal Perspectivalism") understands being a cause as neither like containing some quantity of caloric nor like containing some non-zero number of unicorns, but rather as like being a foreigner or being at rest: a property possessed only from a given perspective. Price argues that if the temporal asymmetry of causation is fixed by some primitive metaphysical fact, rather than by facts about us or our environment, then the reason why it plays such an important role in our practical deliberations remains mysterious. Russell was right that the asymmetry is not built into the fundamental laws of physics. If it is fixed by some environmental asymmetry (such as the thermodynamic asymmetry: that entropy typically increases toward the future), then when considering a possible world where that asymmetry is reversed (or absent), the direction of causation should be reversed (or causal relations should be absent). But that is not the case, Price argues. When we causally characterize a possible world or hypothetical spacetime region where the actual fundamental laws of nature hold but entropy typically decreases toward the future (or has no typical trend), we ascribe the usual kinds of causal relations. We do not exchange causes and effects. Price concludes that the temporal asymmetry of causal relations is fixed not by the environment of the events standing in those relations, but rather by the environment of the ascriber of those relations. Price sees the perspective taken in practical deliberation as essentially involving a distinction between what is settled and what is open. (Our practical deliberations concern one open feature: our course of action.) Because of the prevailing thermodynamic asymmetry, we typically find the past rather than the future epistemically accessible and so take the past as fixed. Since the deliberative perspective treats the future differently from the past not by stipulation, but only in view of accidental environmental circumstances, the deliberative perspective can account for the asymmetry of causation. Price suggests that deliberators where the thermodynamic arrow is reversed would correctly (from their perspective) regard the future as typically causing the past (since they would be taking their cues from the prevailing thermodynamic asymmetry) and so would deliberate regarding the past. This strikes me as akin to suggesting (with Mach) that the water's surface in Newton's bucket would be curved if the universe were made to revolve around it. That causal relations exist from our perspective because we deliberate leaves it mysterious (I think) why we deliberate at all. The alternative is that we deliberate as we do because we want to affect the future. On this view, we fail to deliberate in the same way regarding the past not fundamentally because we already know all about the past (at least "in principle"), but rather because we know that there would be no point in deliberating about the past (except in time-travel scenarios and so forth) since we cannot causally influence it. Of course, causal relations would then have to exist independent of our deliberative standpoint, raising Price's worry that once we characterize causation metaphysically, it will be unclear why we care about "affecting" the future. But this worry must compete with (what seems to me) Price's inability to explain why we take the deliberative standpoint in the first place. Causal asymmetry is significant not only in practical deliberation, but also in an important variety of scientific explanation. If causal relations are tied to the deliberative standpoint, then they are not essential to science if the deliberative standpoint is not. Perhaps, if causal relations are creatures of some perspective, then an "explanatory perspective" would more easily capture their scientific significance. How is the thermodynamic asymmetry responsible for the typical difference in epistemic accessibility between the past and the future? Loewer ("Counterfactuals and the Second Law") presents an explanation that ultimately grounds the causal asymmetry not in our deliberative perspective, but (contrary to Russell) in asymmetries of natural law, which yield asymmetries in counterfactual dependence. Given that the universe long ago had an extremely low-entropy macrostate (the "past hypothesis", in David Albert's suggestive terminology[5]) and given the canonical probability distribution over this macrostate's possible microrealizations (both of which, Loewer says, qualify as laws on David Lewis's "best-system" account and so function as laws in counterfactual reasoning), the deep past is constrained in ways that the far future is not. Accordingly, current "traces" constrain and so allow us to know the relatively recent past, unlike the relatively near future. Although there are possible microrealizations of today's foot-shaped depression in the sand that, traced back in time according to microdynamical law, derive from a conspiracy of unrelated "random" events rather than a human foot, the past hypothesis and microcanonical initial probability distribution make these microrealizations very unlikely. On this picture, unlike the interventionist account, causal notions are applicable even to the universe taken globally. Frisch ("Causation, Counterfactuals, and Entropy") replies that our ordinary inferences from current "traces" to the relatively recent past do not appeal to the past hypothesis: "most people are not at all in a position to assume what that initial condition might be" (p. 370). Indeed, Frisch might have added, for our knowledge of the past to presuppose the past hypothesis would be for our historical knowledge (whether based on memory or on other records) to depend implausibly on a relatively recent discovery of physics. Of course, the past hypothesis might nevertheless be partly responsible for the rough accuracy of the folk causal theories on which our knowledge of the past depends (though Frisch incisively questions whether it is sufficient for the reliability of records and for the past's counterfactual independence from the present). But knowledge, at least in an internalist sense, requires more than just a belief produced by a reliable mechanism. When we infer from today's foot-shaped depression in the sand to a human foot's having imprinted it, Frisch argues, our presumption that there were probably no prior "random" sandy events conspiring to produce a foot-shaped depression is based not on any knowledge of the universe's initial condition, but rather on our past observations of sandy beaches. Whether causal relations are of, by, and for the people, or whether the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle certain events "causes" and others "effects", will continue to be debated. This volume is an excellent place to join that debate. [1] "On the Notion of Cause", Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society 13 (1913): 1-26, p. 1. [2] The contributors are inspired almost as much by Nancy Cartwright's classic "Causal Laws and Effective Strategies" (Nous 13 (1979): 419-38) as they are by Russell. [3] There are other examples of force functions to which classical physics offers multiple solutions, assigning no particular objective chances to any of them. See, for instance, Keith Hutchison, "Is Classical Mechanics Really Time-Reversible and Deterministic?", British Journal for the Philosophy of Science 44 (1993): 307-23. Norton's example has already received considerable attention. See, for example, David Malament, "Norton's Slippery Slope", PSA 2006, forthcoming. [4] For more on the possible status of such principles, see my "Must the Fundamental Laws of Physics Be Complete?", Philosophy and Phenomenological Research, forthcoming. [5] Time and Chance, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2000. From santostasigio at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 18:16:41 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:16:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <200711120556.lAC5u2vI005334@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <809795.69780.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> perfect... thank you to make very precise my point.... spike wrote: ________________________________________ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of giovanni santost >... if anybody can show me how to calculate the probability of survival of a black bear in the artic versus a white one, let me know....I will like to learn to do similar calculations... As would we all, Giovanni. If anyone knew how to accurately calculate this kind of thing, we would be able to write reasonable simulations of ecosystems, and then run them long enough to simulate evolution, a scientific holy grail. If we figure out how to write a high fidelity sim of evolution, we are within minutes of the singularity, because it would be able to sim the past, right through the present, arbitrarily far into the future. Simulating evolution in software must therefore be inherently difficult, as in solving a system of ill conditioned nonlinear dynamic equations, or simulating chaotic systems. Although it has its Lorenz attractors, life may be analogous to Anosov diffeomorphism, chaotic everywhere, inherently ill suited to being reduced to mathematical equations, thus holding us maddeningly dependent upon verbiage in its description, suffering the inescapable ambiguity of meaning associated with language. Dammit. {8-[ spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 12 20:25:34 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:25:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> At 03:34 AM 11/12/2007 -0600, Max wrote: >I read ZMM many years ago, so my memories are quite dusty. Me too, not long after it came out in pb. >I do recall that, although I quite enjoyed it, More than I can say. I gritted my teeth and soldiered on. (In those days I tried to finish everything I'd started.) > it didn't excite me at all philosophically. Indeed. >I vaguely recall Pirsig being fascinated with Plato, >whose thinking I have never found remotely appealing. One of the key aspects of his approach that struck me as madly wrong-headed. Apologies to the many devotees here. :) Damien Broderick From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 12 21:12:05 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:12:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:34 AM 11/12/2007 -0600, Max wrote: > >I vaguely recall Pirsig being fascinated with Plato, > >whose thinking I have never found remotely appealing. > > One of the key aspects of his approach that struck me as madly wrong-headed. Well, Platonism is an irritant of mine too, cf. various discussions on this very list. Some quotes supporting the point that Pirsig was arguing against Plato, mainly on the grounds that Plato's universe was closed, rather than inherently open. "Plato and Socrates insisted on all terms being defined. If you start with a term that is undefined, like Quality, it is no longer a footnote to Plato." -- http://robertpirsig.org/Observer%20Interview.htm For Pirsig, Plato created the Western philosophical nightmare called "Professional Philosophy," amongst other things. -- http://www.moq.org/forum/Kundert/ConfessionsOfAFallenPriest.html "Pirsig maintains that Plato's commitment to 'dialectically determined truth' to establish the Good as the highest truth or idea of all, usurps the Good, or to use Pirsig's term, Quality." -- http://www.philosophypathways.com/essays/watson2.html Also I'm curious Damien, as it may be related, whether when you read the book you got the impression that it was about Zen throughout? I'm not fully aligned with Pirsig's reasoning, but I fully agree with his main point which is about the necessarily holistic nature of something significant which he calls Quality. By the way, Pirsig added "Phaedrus" after the book was essentially done, mainly because his zen aesthetics recoiled from each instance of "I". - Jef From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 12 22:26:59 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:26:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112161707.0224c848@satx.rr.com> At 01:12 PM 11/12/2007 -0800, Jef wrote: >Some quotes supporting the point that Pirsig was arguing against >Plato Hmm. It was a long time ago; I should have kept my mouth shut. (My copy of the book is a long way off...) At any rate, I was unimpressed; this was very much not the case with Hofstadter, a while later. I see on wikipedia the claim that: "By virtue of being a precocious child with an IQ of 170..." which would make Pirsig shine even in this company. (Not to mention, perhaps: "An emotional and mental breakdown led him to spend part of the period 1960 ? 63 in and out of mental institutions...") >Also I'm curious Damien, as it may be related, whether when you read >the book you got the impression that it was about Zen throughout? At this point, deponent sayeth not. (Not to be confused with "deponent sayeth `not'.") :) Damien Broderick From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 12 22:38:22 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:38:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112161707.0224c848@satx.rr.com> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112161707.0224c848@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > At this point, deponent sayeth not. (Not to be > confused with "deponent sayeth `not'.") :) Thanks Damien. Always enlightening. Or enlivening, or some such. :-) - Jef From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 23:30:39 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:30:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: <473859F3.1040807@pooq.com> References: <580930c20711081346j7cd1fe5ftba4c7024d10ed4be@mail.gmail.com> <20071109160126.GPTF9870.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <473859F3.1040807@pooq.com> Message-ID: <200711121730.39114.kanzure@gmail.com> On Monday 12 November 2007 07:49, sti at pooq.com wrote: > This reminds me of a related project I have had on the back burner > for some time. A while ago I worked on a design for an online > collaborative system designed to let transhumanists create an H+ > 'tech graph'. The intent would be to have something halfway between a > wiki and an org chart that would attempt to show which future > developments depended on which others. If nothing else, I hoped it > would codify where folks disagree as to which developments would be > created when. If anything a trust-based system to codify social dynamics is secondary to the entire project (still interesting, yes), but community brainstorming is most certainly necessary. BTW. I am still working on the draft and will be presenting it at Natasha's in a week. At which point I hope to collect some preliminary feedback before I post to the lists, the link. - Bryan From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 13 00:49:17 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:49:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations References: <20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org><003501c80f72$1b1a5ca0$e1024e0c@MyComputer> <20071016104038.GQ4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <006f01c8258f$14442360$ba034e0c@MyComputer> I know I'm a little behind the times but I just found this post hiding on my hard drive. Long long ago in a galaxy far far away, on a day geologists call Tuesday October 16, 2007, Eugen Leitl wrote something. In that long long distant era when we were all young and innocent a man by the name of Eugen Leitl, a very smart fellow, not quite as smart as me in my perhaps very slightly biased opinion but who was nerveless pretty goddamn smart, wrote: > It's not about rereading posts. It's about you selectively picking out > the irrelevant parts of the conversation, and focusing on them, and > nothing else Eugen I fully admit I am entirely guilty of doing exactly precisely what you accuse me of doing. Perhaps it is genetic, perhaps it is environmental, I don't know, I don't care, all I know is that although you think it is despicable I rather like that aspect of myself. I like it a lot actually. I have many very serious flaws, but I would stake my life on the fact that, in whatever world you care to dream up, that is not one of my flaws. And Eugen, if what I am responding to is totally irrelevant then why on Earth did you include it in your original post? John K Clark gen at leitl.org> Wrote: From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 00:59:47 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist (Technical) Roadmap In-Reply-To: <200711121730.39114.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <465763.70650.qm@web35611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> brent allsop's wikipedia-like (but vastly better in terms of design and effectiveness) website known as the "canonizer" would be an excellent option to help gather input and support from others. The site is designed to maximize subject discussion, while at the same time minimizing ugly "editing wars." please support brent in his noble endeavor. If he and the rest of us make this website the gold standard, we will be moving transhumanistic ideas forward in a much more ideal environment. best wishes, John grigg Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Monday 12 November 2007 07:49, sti at pooq.com wrote: >> This reminds me of a related project I have had on the back burner >> for some time. A while ago I worked on a design for an online >> collaborative system designed to let transhumanists create an H+ >> 'tech graph'. The intent would be to have something halfway between a >> wiki and an org chart that would attempt to show which future >> developments depended on which others. If nothing else, I hoped it >> would codify where folks disagree as to which developments would be >> created when. > If anything a trust-based system to codify social dynamics is secondary > to the entire project (still interesting, yes), but community > brainstorming is most certainly necessary. > BTW. I am still working on the draft and will be presenting it at > Natasha's in a week. At which point I hope to collect some preliminary > feedback before I post to the lists, the link. > - Bryan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 02:12:33 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:12:33 +0800 Subject: [ExI] To be or not to be, that is the question In-Reply-To: <580930c20711120223v20cd3af8u3cb67fe84a11a104@mail.gmail.com> References: <944947f20711111858y1b064149ne2df4d64be30ce7c@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20711120223v20cd3af8u3cb67fe84a11a104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <944947f20711121812n6df87ad9r58413486159916ab@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2007 6:23 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Nov 12, 2007 3:58 AM, Stefan Pernar wrote: > > The result was very interesting. Soon I realized that the listed beliefs > > started to contradict each other so I had to think deeper and rewrite > some > > of them. That lead to new insights and resulted in a set of 40 beliefs. > Some > > of them are trivial and some of them are interesting. Most axiomatic > however > > is the following belief: > > > > 1.2.3.2 To exist is preferable over not to exist > > I think this is an interesting effort, because so much of the axiology > behind different options is left implicit, and while I do not believe > for a moment that such proceedings may lead to universal consensus, at > least they clarify what is implied by different positions, logical > consistency being a hardly disputable value in most conceivable > systems. Thanks for your comments. In regards to your opinion on the universal consensus those that prefer not to exist over existing would remove themselves from the discussion. Do you know what I mean? Concerning the axiom 1.2.3.2, I think however that it should be > dissected further. Should it be qualified by adding "all other things > being equal"? (In fact, Hamlet chooses *not* to exist, or at least to I am trying to define things further and expect some interesting results in the near future. face substantial existential risks, because he cannot bear the current > status of things). I saw that aspect of the text and see it as a reflection on whether or not to make a last stand effort to ensure his dignified existence. > And existence of *whom*? The subject speaking? Every human being, and everything humans regard as worth keeping around - details to follow. > How can this subject be understood? As his or her genes whispering? At an > individual level? At a political level? At a "universal" level? Honestly? I am not clear right now... > And "universal" what would refer to what exactly? Currently living human > beings? The mankind as a species? The mankind, including possibly > speciated successors thereto? A species leaving a radically different > progeny behind should be considered as "extinct" or as "evolved"?Would > successors here mean only biological successors of "children of the > mind" would qualify as well? In an initial attempt I would say everything that could object to non-existing or to the non-existing of something. Fleshing this out will be my next focus. > And I could continue with regard to possible different meanings of > "existence"... > Please wait with that for now ;-) > All that is not a purely theoretical game, because it involves > different and sometimes diverging strategies and concerns... > Will post infrequent updates according to my progress. -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 13 04:40:49 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:40:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1697 Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen Tuesday, 13 November 2007 Agen?e France-Presse CHICAGO: A new method of producing hydrogen gas from biodegradable organic material has been developed, potentially providing an abundant source of clean-burning fuel. The technology offers a way to cheaply and efficiently generate hydrogen from readily available and renewable biomass such as cellulose or glucose, and could be used for powering vehicles, making fertiliser and treating drinking water. Public transport systems Numerous public transportation systems are moving toward hydrogen-powered engines as an alternative to gasoline, but most hydrogen today is generated from non-renewable fossil fuels such as natural gas. The new method developed by engineers at Pennsylvania State University in University Park, U.S., combines electron-generating bacteria and a small electrical charge in a microbial fuel cell to produce hydrogen gas. Microbial fuel cells work through the action of bacteria, which can pass electrons to an anode. The electrons flow from the anode through a wire to the cathode producing an electric current. In the process, the bacteria consume organic matter in the biomass material. An external jolt of electricity helps generate hydrogen gas at the cathode. In the past, the process, which is known as electrohydrogenesis, has had poor efficiency rates and low hydrogen yields. But environmental engineers Shaoan Cheng and Bruce Logan were able to get around these problems by chemically modifying elements of the reactor. Economically viable now Their study appears in the U.S. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. In laboratory experiments, their reactor generated hydrogen gas at nearly 99 per cent of the theoretical maximum yield using aetic acid, a common dead-end product of glucose fermentation. "This process produces 288 per cent more energy in hydrogen than the electrical energy that is added in the process," said Logan. The technology is economically viable now, which gives hydrogen an edge over another alternative biofuel, which is grabbing more headlines. "The energy focus is currently on ethanol as a fuel, but economical ethanol from cellulose is 10 years down the road," said Logan. "First you need to break cellulose down to sugars and then bacteria can convert them to ethanol." One of the immediate applications for this technology is to supply the fuel for electric fuel cell vehicles ? but it could also be used to convert wood chips into hydrogen to create fertiliser, said the researchers. From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 04:16:59 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:16:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <20071112093504.KGES9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> Message-ID: <200711130443.lAD4hGWi010078@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Max More > Subject: Re: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda > > At 09:31 PM 11/11/2007, Spike wrote: > > >ps Is Max More out there? Isn't he a professor of philosophy? If so, he > >surely would have studied ZMM and perhaps has some enlightening > commentary, > >ja? > > I'm not Max More, but I've been known to play him on TV... > > I read ZMM many years ago, so my memories are quite dusty. I do > recall that, although I quite enjoyed it, it didn't excite me at all > philosophically... Max I did some research and learned that National Geographic did an article on Robert Pirsig soon after the publication of his book in April of 1974. They had a picture of him with the bike. I zoomed in on that photo and saw that it had Minnesota plates with a then-current 1974 endorsement. A goggle search led me to find a professor of physics from South Carolina who has been corresponding with Pirsig up to as recently as a few weeks ago. Turns out ZMM book ended in San Francisco but that isn't where the ride ended. He mentioned while in Montana that he planned to sell the bike in SF, but that isn't what happened. He and Chris ended up riding the bike down to Hollywood to visit friends, then rode the pitifully inadequate device all the way back up to Minneapolis. Pirsig still owns the bike to this day. Its actual condition is unknown. The physics professor mentioned to RP the possibility of arranging a museum display including the holy honda. While dealing with all the other inquiries, Pirsig conspicuously ignored the question. So I don't know where we are on that, but the professor and I are working together on some ideas. John and Sylvia Southerland's R60 beemer has been located. The current owner knows what he has and what it is worth. He is taking meticulous care of the machine, knowing that it and the holy honda are both likely to be on the list of the 100 most valuable motorcycles on the planet. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 13 04:48:21 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:48:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112224729.0242fcb0@satx.rr.com> At 10:40 PM 11/12/2007 -0600, I cited: >In laboratory experiments, their reactor >generated hydrogen gas at nearly 99 per cent of >the theoretical maximum yield using aetic acid, a >common dead-end product of glucose fermentation. Presumably "acetic acid"? From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 13 04:53:50 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:53:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <200711130443.lAD4hGWi010078@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <20071112093504.KGES9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <200711130443.lAD4hGWi010078@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112225000.02228ed0@satx.rr.com> What about Fonda's chopped sickle (is that the term of art?) from EASY RIDER? From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 05:34:20 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:34:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anti-transhumanist crap on Kuro5hin and related. In-Reply-To: <51ce64f10711111912n614fabb0q558d45aaba1e5b5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711130600.lAD60bbt001659@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Michael Anissimov ... Regarding Gould, everyone should read this: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/beware-of-gould.html -- Michael Anissimov Thanks Michael. I am aware of the criticisms of Gould, but do let me offer this angle on the question using a sports analogy. In Europe, a new hybrid sport is rapidly gaining popularity, the combination of the apparently disparate sports of chess and boxing: http://site.wcbo.org/content/index_en.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing If one looks at the champions of this sport one will see that they are neither the very best boxers nor the very best chess players, but they are very competent at both sports. These champions tend to be A-rated to expert range at chess; our own Lee Corbin would crush either of them like bugs over the board. I would fear for his life however, should we put boxing gloves on the poor chap and put in him the ring with these athletes. Gould, Sagan, Asimov and Broderick are four examples of those who both understand the science and are excellent writers. To criticize their science is analogous to the grandmaster criticizing the chess boxers' chess. Let these scientists step into the ring with Gould in the arena of book sales, or his ability to communicate complex ideas to the great unwashed masses. Science writing for the masses is a hybrid sport. Let the critics write science in a way that is as readable and thought provoking as those of Sagan's Dragons of Eden. Invite them to take on Asimov in a science nonfiction essay match, or challenge Damien to write a book to excel The Spike. Or write about evolution in a way that is as sparkly clear and readable as Amara Graps' PhD thesis on interstellar dust. Let them write for me on evolution, given that I know not the specialists' terminology, haven't the deep background in biology nor years to devote to a deep understanding, yet I still value some understanding of the topic. Many, if not most, Americans get exactly no formal training in evolution in the universities. Scientists, keep that in mind while trying to teach us evolution, then make it as compelling as the essays Gould wrote after he learned that he had terminal peritoneal mesothelioma and was told that the median survival was six months. The essays he then wrote took several of his precious remaining hours, explaining to his audience that one may live years after such a diagnosis. He provided the statistical reasoning behind why he chose to continue to hope for life. He survived for the next twenty years. These post-diagnosis essays should be choice reading to encourage anyone who receives grim news from the medics. Gould spent his last two decades producing a wonderful collection of science essays that deflected my thought vector by about a radian. I know there are serious issues with Gould's science writings from the specialists in the field. I await their books. Popular science writing for the non-specialist is a hybrid sport. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 06:10:15 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:10:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112225000.02228ed0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200711130636.lAD6aVId002062@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:54 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda > > What about Fonda's chopped sickle (is that the term of art?) from EASY > RIDER? Ah yes, the famous Captain America, the cruel device which was modified to the point of being nearly impossible to ride, upon which the drug smugglers went in search of America. Did you notice the rear shocks of the otherwise perfectly good Harley panhead were replaced with hard struts? And just to demonstrate our manliness, most of the padding in the seat was removed, perhaps to insure severe spinal damage to the hapless operator and his football helmeted passenger. One of the two original Captain Americas is believed to have been stolen from a shed on the property of MGM studios. The other is residing currently at the National Motorcycle Museum in Anamosa, Iowa. I have seen it, but failed to be impressed. Replicas have been created in profusion, all of which are equally unroadworthy as the original. For about $24k, I am told one can purchase the kit with all the chrome bits and modifications needed to destroy your own panhead Harley. You might even be able to find an authentic old pickup and a couple of shotgun-wielding hicks willing to commit motorcycular homicide, thus putting the suffering rider out of his misery. If it is literary artifacts we seek in general, I have learned during my quest that Ken Kesey's electric kool-ade bus Further is still in existence. Why, I couldn't say. I am particularly interested in the motorcycular variety of literary relics however, so I would sooner seek the early-sixties vintage British twin upon which Steve McQueen attempted to flee the Nazis in the otherwise excellent film The Great Escape. Come now Hollywood, did you think we bikers would fail to notice the unit-construction crankcase that was a clear indication of English post 1961 manufacture? Could not the props department locate a genuine late 30s vintage beemer? Still I prefer the Holy Honda or its companion, John and Sylvia's R60. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 06:42:37 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:42:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] abandon all homosexuality In-Reply-To: <200711130600.lAD60bbt001659@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711130708.lAD78si0003197@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Well, I guess this explains why Amadinejihad could say there is no homosexuality in Iran: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311025,00.html From nanogirl at halcyon.com Tue Nov 13 06:58:28 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:58:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Foresight Vision Weekend References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071109140010.021dc750@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <018a01c825c3$4430d300$0300a8c0@Nano> Hello everyone, I've got a couple pictures of our Vision Weekend experience here: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/2007/11/november-news.html#comments We had a really great time! To the future~ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Tue Nov 13 07:29:49 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:29:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda References: <20071112093504.KGES9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com><200711130443.lAD4hGWi010078@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112225000.02228ed0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c825c6$fcd4dca0$e0931f97@archimede> Damien Broderick: > What about Fonda's chopped sickle (is that > the term of art?) from EASY RIDER? After securing funding for their film 'Easy Rider', Dennis Hopper and Peter Fonda bought several used Los Angeles Police Department Harley Davidsons at auction. Two bikes were dismantled and heavily chromed; the front forks were raked to a 45-degree angle and lengthened 12 inches; and "ape-hanger" handle bars were mounted on the Wide-Glide front ends. One motorcycle was destroyed in the making of the film, the other was stolen before the film premiered. http://guggenheim.stores.yahoo.net/hareasrid.html What about the Triumph 'TT Special 650' from 'The Great Escape'? http://www.mcqueenonline.com/thegreatescapetriumph.htm s. From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 13 08:36:01 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:36:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com><200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <005101c825d0$40611a70$c4034e0c@MyComputer> Max wrote: >> I quite enjoyed it Damien wrote : > More than I can say. I gritted my teeth and soldiered on. I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance back when I was a teenager, a distant alien era where giant reptiles ruled the earth. At the time I quite liked the book, but today even if you put a gun to my head I don't think I could tell you much about it, except that Pirsig likes excellence. But then, who doesn't like excellence? I haven't read the book in many years but I suspect I would be less impressed with it now than when I was a kid. > In those days I tried to finish everything I'd started. I retain that flaw to this day, by page 50 I know the book sucks but I bought the damn thing so I feel I must finish reading the entire stupid thing. The most horrible example is when I thought I should read the Lord of the Rings. I started the first book and learned that Clogknee, chief of the Bustalator people who come from across the Onrobonob river beyond the Dyphlesator mountains on the planes of Diplet in the land of Fustalator near the forest of Sphincter which in the elfin tongue is called Whogivesadamn wrote: ah, he wrote something but I can't recall exactly what. It was painful but I finished book 1. I was smart enough not to start book 2 or 3. John K Clark From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 13 08:42:10 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:42:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com><200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <006401c825d1$b6e6c9f0$c4034e0c@MyComputer> Max wrote: >> I quite enjoyed it Damien wrote : > More than I can say. I gritted my teeth and soldiered on. I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance back when I was a teenager, a distant alien era where giant reptiles ruled the earth. At the time I quite liked the book, but today even if you put a gun to my head I don't think I could tell you much about it, except that Pirsig likes excellence. But then, who doesn't like excellence? I haven't read the book in many years but I suspect I would be less impressed with it now than when I was a kid. > In those days I tried to finish everything I'd started. I retain that flaw to this day, by page 50 I know the book sucks but I bought the damn thing so I feel I must finish reading the entire stupid thing. The most horrible example is when I thought I should read the Lord of the Rings. I started the first book and learned that Clogknee, chief of the Bustalator people who comes from across the Onrobonob river beyond the Dyphlesator mountains on the planes of Diplet in the land of Fustalator near the forest of Sphincter which in the elfin tongue is called Whogivesadamn wrote: ah, he wrote something but I can't recall exactly what. It was painful but I finished book 1. I was smart enough not to start book 2 or 3. John K Clark From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 13 09:52:59 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:52:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20071113095259.GL4005@leitl.org> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 10:40:49PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > CHICAGO: A new method of producing hydrogen gas > from biodegradable organic material has been That doesn't inspire confidence. > developed, potentially providing an abundant source of clean-burning fuel. What's wrong with making hydrogen from methane, and once PV is cheap enough, water electrolysis? > The technology offers a way to cheaply and > efficiently generate hydrogen from readily > available and renewable biomass such as cellulose If you have cellulose, I would rather make hexane from that. > or glucose, and could be used for powering > vehicles, making fertiliser and treating drinking water. What's wrong with electricity? > Public transport systems > > Numerous public transportation systems are moving > toward hydrogen-powered engines as an alternative Uh, that's bullshit. > to gasoline, but most hydrogen today is generated > from non-renewable fossil fuels such as natural gas. There's an awful lot of methane around, and hydrogen fuel cells are considerably more efficient than ICEs. > The new method developed by engineers at > Pennsylvania State University in University Park, > U.S., combines electron-generating bacteria and a More bullshit. You'll burn most of your energy for bacteria metabolism. > small electrical charge in a microbial fuel cell to produce hydrogen gas. Can about stop reading at that point. > Microbial fuel cells work through the action of > bacteria, which can pass electrons to an anode. > The electrons flow from the anode through a wire > to the cathode producing an electric current. In > the process, the bacteria consume organic matter > in the biomass material. An external jolt of > electricity helps generate hydrogen gas at the cathode. > > In the past, the process, which is known as > electrohydrogenesis, has had poor efficiency > rates and low hydrogen yields. But environmental > engineers Shaoan Cheng and Bruce Logan were able > to get around these problems by chemically modifying elements of the reactor. > > Economically viable now > > Their study appears in the U.S. Proceedings of > the National Academy of Sciences. > > In laboratory experiments, their reactor > generated hydrogen gas at nearly 99 per cent of > the theoretical maximum yield using aetic acid, a > common dead-end product of glucose fermentation. You can also make hydrogen from worthless greenbacks. It's only slightly more expensive that oxidizing your fuel into low-energy acetic acid, which is even more energy-intensive to destill than bioethanol. > "This process produces 288 per cent more energy > in hydrogen than the electrical energy that is > added in the process," said Logan. Ahahahahaha. Mighty 288%, using such low-quality input as electricity. Ohmigosh. > The technology is economically viable now, which > gives hydrogen an edge over another alternative > biofuel, which is grabbing more headlines. "The > energy focus is currently on ethanol as a fuel, Of course bioethanol is only in the public debate due to crooks (agrolobby) and ignorants. > but economical ethanol from cellulose is 10 years > down the road," said Logan. "First you need to > break cellulose down to sugars and then bacteria can convert them to ethanol." Yeahyeahyeah. Where I have I heard that before. > One of the immediate applications for this > technology is to supply the fuel for electric > fuel cell vehicles ? but it could also be used to > convert wood chips into hydrogen to create fertiliser, said the researchers. And a mighty strong fertilizer it is. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 10:58:59 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:58:59 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen In-Reply-To: <20071113095259.GL4005@leitl.org> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> <20071113095259.GL4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 13/11/2007, Eugen Leitl wrote: > What's wrong with making hydrogen from methane, > and once PV is cheap enough, water electrolysis? Why not store the electricity in batteries instead of using it to make explosive gases? -- Stathis Papaioannou From scerir at libero.it Tue Nov 13 11:07:40 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:07:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] zmm: quest for the holy honda References: <20071112093504.KGES9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com><200711130443.lAD4hGWi010078@andromeda.ziaspace.com><7.0.1.0.2.20071112225000.02228ed0@satx.rr.com> <000701c825c6$fcd4dca0$e0931f97@archimede> Message-ID: <000401c825e5$6ab16bd0$74bc1f97@archimede> > > What about Fonda's chopped sickle (is that > > the term of art?) from EASY RIDER? > http://guggenheim.stores.yahoo.net/hareasrid.html For a different story see here http://au.answers.yahoo.com/answers2/frontend.php/question?qid=2007092717550 0AAEyfdk From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 13 11:13:19 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:13:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Novel technique for cheap and abundant hydrogen In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071112223811.021b9200@satx.rr.com> <20071113095259.GL4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20071113111319.GM4005@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 09:58:59PM +1100, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Why not store the electricity in batteries Hydrogen/air fuel cells *are* batteries, which happen to have gaseous electrodes. DMFCs have liquid electrodes. LiIon has solid electrodes. The electrolyte can also be anything from liquid to solid. > instead of using it to make explosive gases? Hydrogen in a storage tank isn't explosive. You'd need to mix it with an oxidiser. Natural gas is very explosive, too, and not nearly as quick to dissipate as hydrogen, but is nevertheless used widely. It's considerably safer than e.g. a lithium battery which suffers an internal short-circuit, and produces a nice runaway metal fire. Also, batteries have very limited charge/discharge cycles, after which they must be recycled in their entirety. Both lead-acid and lithium batteries are problematic, for toxicity and scarcity reasons. Water is cheap and plentiful, while lithium is not. Pressure storage tanks are cheap, too. You can also use a gasometer, of course, since the energy density is quite considerable. Water electrolysers are fundamentally very cheap, and can generate pressure directly, without using a compressor. Fuel cells can be made very cheap fundamentally, with a bit more R&D. Same applies for improving electrolysis efficiency. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 11:32:25 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:32:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?=93F=23=23=23_death!=94_vs=2E_anti-superla?= =?windows-1252?q?tive_apologists_of_death?= Message-ID: <470a3c520711130332t2f501587qd7a5ae59268762af@mail.gmail.com> Some replies to Dale & co.: http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/f_death_vs_anti_superlative_apologists_of_death/ From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 11:45:00 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:45:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a very frequent visitor). These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub in a Starbucks or something. We could call the project something like "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe". What a great project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time. G. On Nov 11, 2007 8:48 PM, spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > > Subject: Re: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > > > On 11/11/07, spike wrote: > > > > > I have been looking for a good original superhawk for years, one that I > can > > > restore and add the aftermarket white panniers (good luck in finding > > those) > > > so that I could attempt to ride it on a 40th anniversary retracing of > > > Pirsig's ZMM route next summer. > > > > I would love to make that trip, but only with a very small group, or > > the spirit would be entirely lost. > > > > - Jef > > > OK tell ya what Jef, find someone willing to ride the 1964* CB77 superhawk, > you can ride Pirsig's buddy John's 1967 model R60 beemer, I will ride the > cavalcade, and we three can ride across Montana and wax philosophical every > evening over beer. But this time without going crazy at the end. We would > need to get Damien, as he would be the ideal candidate to write it for us. > > spike > > *Apologies biker extropians: in an earlier post I accidentally said 1967 > superhawk, but now I remembered that Pirsig's bike was actually a > (mechanically nearly identical) 1964 model brought to you by Mr. Soichiro > Honda (with an aftermarket handlebar) as can be seen by the shape of the > knee pads on the sides of the tank and the length of the front fender. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 14:10:48 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 06:10:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime > (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the > evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a > very frequent visitor). > > These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub > in a Starbucks or something. We could call the project something like > "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe". What a great > project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for > a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time. Giulio, I understand you've read the book ten times, so don't you think this approach to quality would trample any possibility of finding Quality as Pirsig meant it? - Jef From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:00:28 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> Not at all! If Pirsig had considered his vision of Quality too ethereal and delicate to survive contact with the real world, he would never have published the book. It would have been found hidden in a closet after the author's death. To write it as Pirsig might had written it, Quality can be found only on a mountaintop when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while webcasting to the world (he referred to finding Quality in a mororcycle gear, but you see what I mean). G. On Nov 13, 2007 3:10 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime > > (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the > > evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a > > very frequent visitor). > > > > These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub > > in a Starbucks or something. We could call the project something like > > "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe". What a great > > project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for > > a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time. > > Giulio, I understand you've read the book ten times, so don't you > think this approach to quality would trample any possibility of > finding Quality as Pirsig meant it? > > - Jef > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 15:09:48 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:09:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance In-Reply-To: <005101c825d0$40611a70$c4034e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711120124.lAC1OWws001070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711120331.lAC3VUsx024448@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071112142230.0222dec0@satx.rr.com> <005101c825d0$40611a70$c4034e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 11/13/07, John K Clark wrote: > I retain that flaw to this day, by page 50 I know the book sucks but I > bought the damn thing so I feel I must finish reading the entire stupid > thing. In contrast, I abandon many more books than I complete -- it doesn't take long to assess the intelligence and insightfulness of the writer -- and I usually have a dozen or so books of value in my queue. > The most horrible example is when I thought I should read the Lord of > the Rings. I started the first book and learned that Clogknee, chief of the > Bustalator people who come from across the Onrobonob river beyond the > Dyphlesator mountains on the planes of Diplet in the land of Fustalator near > the forest of Sphincter which in the elfin tongue is called Whogivesadamn > wrote: ah, he wrote something but I can't recall exactly what. It was > painful but I finished book 1. I was smart enough not to start book 2 or 3. Arrrgh, I suffered similarly through the entire trilogy but it was for an important cause -- the beautiful (and smart) girl who sat near me in 11th grade History was fascinated by Tolkien, but not, as it later turned out, by me. Actually, reading Tolkien provided some (meta|pseudo)-cultural enrichment and additional perspective, so it wasn't entirely in vain. I'm sure there are many Tolkien fans in this forum, but suspect much more enthusiastic support here for the even more unreal Hitchhiker trilogy (composed of not three, but four books.) What might that tell us about Quality? - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 15:41:18 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:41:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Not at all! You mean (as usual for us, right?) you don't see even a smidgen of my point? > If Pirsig had considered his vision of Quality too ethereal and > delicate to survive contact with the real world, he would never have > published the book. It would have been found hidden in a closet after > the author's death. There was never any implication that it was delicate at all, but it is described as a subtle layer of interpretation that many people, like John and Sylvia, didn't get (and didn't get that they didn't get it.) It was always clear and obvious to them what the truth was, but their model lacked a place holder for Quality. > To write it as Pirsig might had written it, Quality can be found only > on a mountaintop when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while > webcasting to the world (he referred to finding Quality in a > mororcycle gear, but you see what I mean). Yes, Zen is not found in where you are or what you're doing, but in terms of one's perceived relationship to the whole. And when you excitedly say "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe", it seems obvious to me that such a viewpoint explicitly excludes (or tramples) the **viewpoint** -- nothing to do with the activity -- of Zen. Eh? - Jef From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:41:27 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:41:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130741m79b645aew9c1b0917bf652ab5@mail.gmail.com> Necessary correction: "Quality can be found NOT only on a mountaintop when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while webcasting to the world On Nov 13, 2007 4:00 PM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Not at all! > > If Pirsig had considered his vision of Quality too ethereal and > delicate to survive contact with the real world, he would never have > published the book. It would have been found hidden in a closet after > the author's death. > > To write it as Pirsig might had written it, Quality can be found only > on a mountaintop when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while > webcasting to the world (he referred to finding Quality in a > mororcycle gear, but you see what I mean). > > G. > > > On Nov 13, 2007 3:10 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > > On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > > Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime > > > (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the > > > evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a > > > very frequent visitor). > > > > > > These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub > > > in a Starbucks or something. We could call the project something like > > > "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe". What a great > > > project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for > > > a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time. > > > > Giulio, I understand you've read the book ten times, so don't you > > think this approach to quality would trample any possibility of > > finding Quality as Pirsig meant it? > > > > - Jef > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:52:28 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:52:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130752i1dd159d9g3cae5f13be5c6ed5@mail.gmail.com> Come on Jef that was a JOKE! G. On Nov 13, 2007 4:41 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Not at all! > > You mean (as usual for us, right?) you don't see even a smidgen of my point? > > > > If Pirsig had considered his vision of Quality too ethereal and > > delicate to survive contact with the real world, he would never have > > published the book. It would have been found hidden in a closet after > > the author's death. > > There was never any implication that it was delicate at all, but it is > described as a subtle layer of interpretation that many people, like > John and Sylvia, didn't get (and didn't get that they didn't get it.) > It was always clear and obvious to them what the truth was, but their > model lacked a place holder for Quality. > > > > To write it as Pirsig might had written it, Quality can be found only > > on a mountaintop when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while > > webcasting to the world (he referred to finding Quality in a > > mororcycle gear, but you see what I mean). > > Yes, Zen is not found in where you are or what you're doing, but in > terms of one's perceived relationship to the whole. And when you > excitedly say "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe", > it seems obvious to me that such a viewpoint explicitly excludes (or > tramples) the **viewpoint** -- nothing to do with the activity -- of > Zen. > > Eh? > > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 15:58:52 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:58:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711131558.lADFwTHA014070@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Subject: Re: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime > > (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the > > evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a > > very frequent visitor). I have found a bunch of sites by people who have made the journey, read the narrative and tried to identify the exact roads and stopping points. I fear they may have missed the message of the book entirely. But had fun anyways. > > These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub > > in a Starbucks or something... Some do. Some of the places have perished and become ghost towns. Some have changed little in 40 years. Recall that RP deliberately avoided the interstate highways, without which commerce is eventually strangled. > > We could call the project something like > > "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe"... Of course this would be antithetical to the original concept. Perhaps this is a good strategy. I never did fully grok the whole Buddhist eschewing of material goods thing. I want to be both smart and rich. > > What a great > > project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for > > a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time... I do like the "lot of money" part. But of course it would be practically immoral to cite Pirsig in this context. He is a dedicated Buddhist today. Those in contact with him have reported that he has so little interest in material wealth he refuses to deal with certain practical matters, such as the fact that he has a priceless literary artifact apparently in or around his home with unknown security protecting it. I fear that it shall be stolen, as was one of the original Captain Americas. > > Giulio, I understand you've read the book ten times, so don't you > think this approach to quality would trample any possibility of > finding Quality as Pirsig meant it? > > - Jef Ja, the suggestions so far have come no closer to the Metaphysics of Quality than I have come to owning the sacred relic the Holy Honda. I am not scolding or criticizing, for in 25 years since I read ZMM, I still cannot answer the question: What is Quality? spike From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 16:09:46 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:09:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711130741m79b645aew9c1b0917bf652ab5@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130741m79b645aew9c1b0917bf652ab5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Necessary correction: "Quality can be found NOT only on a mountaintop > when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while webcasting to the > world That was understood, and didn't impair understanding of your message. But do you think you understood my point? - Jef From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:23:01 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:23:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LA Times Book Review: Proust Was A Neuroscientist Message-ID: <29666bf30711130823o684abe55v6be486269e84c46@mail.gmail.com> Turns out some of those 'creatives' weren't so wrong-headed after all. ;-) PJ http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-cohen28oct28,0,7858653.story?coll=la-books-headlines >From the Los Angeles Times BOOK REVIEW 'Proust Was a Neuroscientist' by Jonah Lehrer A science journalist discovers intuitions of recent advances in neuroscience. By Jesse Cohen October 28, 2007 Proust Was a Neuroscientist Jonah Lehrer Houghton Mifflin: 242 pp., $24 Thanks to advances in neuroscience, a new model of the brain has emerged: dynamic, plastic, constantly regenerating and reorganizing itself, processing stimuli with such creative virtuosity that it's hard to tell where reality ends and our mental translation of it begins. Optical illusions, in which the brain creates shapes, colors and movement absent in the images, are but one example. Jonah Lehrer, a science journalist with a neuroscience background, argues in "Proust Was a Neuroscientist" that this model is not as new as it seems. I mean no disrespect when I say his book is itself something of an optical illusion -- one of those figure/ground affairs, like the two profiles that vanish when the vase between them appears. Looked at one way, "Proust Was a Neuroscientist" is a lucid summary of the brain as seen by contemporary neuroscience; looked at again, it is an inspired interpretation of the work of eight 19th and 20th century artists and writers whose insights, Lehrer claims, anticipated our current understanding. In lesser hands, this argument would be merely tendentious, but Lehrer's command of his material is so complete that he persuasively makes his case with scientific acuity and aesthetic sensitivity. He starts with Walt Whitman, whose "central poetic idea" was that "body and mind are inseparable. . . . We do not have a body, we are a body." Mind/body duality is an illusion, and not just for Whitman. Lehrer offers as examples the phenomenon of "phantom limbs" (reported by amputees) and the research of neuroscientist Antonio Damasio into how "from our muscles we steal our moods." Lehrer next turns to George Eliot, who rebelled against the scientific positivism of her time: the belief that everything, including human behavior, could be reduced to a set of physical laws and subject to accurate prediction. Lehrer sees Eliot as anticipating two scientific paradigms: neurogenesis (the continuous, lifelong generation of new brain cells) and the idea that our DNA "makes us without determining us." Lehrer, who has also worked in four-star restaurant kitchens, deems Auguste Escoffier an artist as well, one who intuited concepts now central to our ideas of taste. He served his dishes piping hot to better release their aromas, and we now know that the sense of smell is 90% of taste; his long-simmering stocks and sauces were rich in the flavor recent research has identified as l-glutamate, the fifth of our taste receptors; and he offered varied menus to accommodate different preferences, though presumably unaware that "the human olfactory cortex, the part of the brain that interprets information from the tongue and nose, is . . . free to arrange itself around the content of our individual experiences." As for Proust, his insights go beyond the observation that memory is bound to physical sensation (yes, that madeleine). The Proustian narrator "is constantly altering his remembered descriptions of things and people. . . . In any other novel, such sloppiness would be considered a mistake. But in ["In Search of Lost Time"], the instability and inaccuracy of memory is the moral." As Proust suspected, our creative brains constantly revise our memories: "[E]very time we remember anything, the neuronal structure of the memory is delicately transformed." Paul C?zanne tried to grasp the image before the brain's tidy repackaging of it. He "broke the laws of painting in order to reveal the laws of seeing." Gertrude Stein's grammatical but seemingly meaningless prose points to Noam Chomsky's deep structure: "[E]very language -- from English to Cantonese -- [is] the same. . . . [sharing] a universal grammar built into the brain." And Virginia Woolf, who chronicled so precisely her characters' shifting yet stable sense of self, leads right to the latest theory of consciousness. "For Woolf . . . the self is an illusion. . . . Modern neuroscience is now confirming the self Woolf believed in. We invent ourselves out of our own sensations." Only in his discussion of Igor Stravinsky does Lehrer fail to convince. Not that he stumbles in describing the music; indeed, he shows the same mastery here as elsewhere. Still, he overstates his case, arguing that the dissonances and fractured rhythms introduced in "The Rite of Spring" have rewired our brains to accept new sounds: "Pretty noises are boring. Music is only interesting when it confronts us with tension, and the source of tension is conflict. Stravinsky's insight was that what the audience really wanted was to be denied what it wanted." So apt was this insight that "the same symphony that once caused a violent riot became the clich?d example of modern music." The lesson is that our brains need the new to expand; once we've absorbed one set of sounds, we need to continue exploring. If we have truly absorbed Stravinsky, though, why does Schoenberg still raise hackles? Popular music is not harmonically or rhythmically challenging to the ear, yet it's the dominant soundscape of our time. In a "Coda," Lehrer rather dismayingly calls for a movement of writers and artists to "ignore arbitrary intellectual boundaries" and "take a pragmatic view of the truth," judging it "not by its origins but in terms of its usefulness. What does this novel or experiment or poem or protein teach us about ourselves? How does it help us to understand who we are? What long-standing problem has it solved?" Oh, dear, a program. So much for Oscar Wilde's claim that "All art is quite useless." Wilde's vision may be extreme -- but still, one wants to ask, can't a work of art, sometimes, just be beautiful? Lehrer is, astonishingly, only 25, and may not realize that his powerful intellect hardly needs the protection of a brigade of artist/scientist/pragmatist hybrids. In enlarging our understanding of eight artists while teaching us how brains work (and enlarging our understanding of brains by teaching us how those artists worked), he's produced what his modernist heroes also sought: a liberating new way to see the world. His book marks the arrival of an important new thinker, who finds in the science and the arts wonder and beauty, and with equal confidence says wise and fresh things about both. * Jesse Cohen is the series editor of "The Best American Science Writing." From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:27:41 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:27:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130700t5807bf1cy8fbf8fac17ef7c61@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c520711130741m79b645aew9c1b0917bf652ab5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130827y247ee5dcsa953dae7f5735b5a@mail.gmail.com> Sure I did - my "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe" was a joke! I always considered joking about serious things very zen. G. On Nov 13, 2007 5:09 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Necessary correction: "Quality can be found NOT only on a mountaintop > > when you are alone, but also in a Starbucks while webcasting to the > > world > > That was understood, and didn't impair understanding of your message. > But do you think you understood my point? > > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:37:56 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:37:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LA Times Book Review: 'Black Mass' and 'Straw Dogs' Message-ID: <29666bf30711130837m4b2aa5f5qe3bab0004525c4a0@mail.gmail.com> "Read in sequence, they perform an almost surgical feat: "Straw Dogs" reconstructs popular notions of the relationships among science, religion and politics. This revisionist landscape of modern thought is further explored in "Black Mass," which presents utopian politics from the French Revolution through America's project of spreading democracy in the Middle East as "mutant version[s]" of an ancient, apocalyptic Christian belief that God will transform the world and evil will pass away... These are works of intellectual cartography, clarifying boundaries among disciplines, with one primary goal: naming the ways that what we call secularism unknowingly and stubbornly promotes a crudely religious way of looking at the world." Apparently, realizing we are Darwin's animals and not God's children could go a long way in disabusing us of the unfortunate notion, laden with unintended consequences and collateral damage, that we can create utopia. PJ http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-gross28oct28,0,4633619.story?coll=la-books-headlines >From the Los Angeles Times BOOK REVIEW 'Black Mass' and 'Straw Dogs' by John Gray Britain's intellectual provocateur tells how religion drives politics. By Michael Joseph Gross October 28, 2007 Black Mass Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia John Gray Farrar, Straus & Giroux: 244 pp., $24 Straw Dogs Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals John Gray Farrar, Straus & Giroux: 248 pp., $16 paper This might be the most important question you can ask about the presidential candidates: Can they talk to the animals? Bizarre as it may sound, the desire for an affirmative answer to that question (which we'll get back to) acquires a nagging gravity while reading two books by the English writer John Gray. "Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals," a bestseller upon publication in Britain in 2002, is being released here, along with his new "Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia." Each book is slender and sharp as a scalpel. Read in sequence, they perform an almost surgical feat: "Straw Dogs" reconstructs popular notions of the relationships among science, religion and politics. This revisionist landscape of modern thought is further explored in "Black Mass," which presents utopian politics from the French Revolution through America's project of spreading democracy in the Middle East as "mutant version[s]" of an ancient, apocalyptic Christian belief that God will transform the world and evil will pass away. "When the project of universal democracy ended in the blood-soaked streets of Iraq," Gray writes, " . . . Utopianism suffered a heavy blow, but politics and war have not ceased to be vehicles for myth. Instead, primitive versions of religion are replacing the secular faith that has been lost." And yet, oddly, as "Black Mass" hints, other religious myths offer hope for dispelling the superstitionshovering over global politics today. Gray, a professor of European thought at the London School of Economics, has written or edited 19 books, including academic studies of Isaiah Berlin and John Stuart Mill. Though relatively unknown in the United States, he is a controversial public intellectual in Britain, where he has evolved from a Thatcherite conservative into an ideologically unclassifiable provocateur. Though typically shelved as political philosophy, "Straw Dogs" and "Black Mass" offer a reading experience less like Locke and more like the joyful, quasi-academic synopses of Alain de Botton (though Gray is more erudite and less sentimental) or the mirthfully sober, brain-wandering novels of W.G. Sebald (though Gray is prouder and more rhetorical). With excursions into Conrad, Plato, Bruce Chatwin, Schopenhauer and Lao Tzu, among many others, Gray's books have the delighting, frightening, distracting and focusing qualities of a mist-to-dusk drive on the Pacific Coast Highway. These are works of intellectual cartography, clarifying boundaries among disciplines, with one primary goal: naming the ways that what we call secularism unknowingly and stubbornly promotes a crudely religious way of looking at the world. Explaining that the "very idea of revolution as a transforming event in history is owed to religion," Gray announces near the beginning of "Black Mass" that the "Enlightenment ideologies of the past centuries were very largely spilt theology." (The aper?u is no less electrifying for being an uncredited allusion to the critic T.E. Hulme, who dismissed Romanticism as "spilt religion.") The view of politics described by "Black Mass" is grounded in the argument of "Straw Dogs." That book details the ways that science has become a vessel for old religious hopes: "sickness and ageing will be abolished; scarcity and poverty will be no more; the species will become immortal. Like Christianity in the past, the modern cult of science lives on the hope of miracles." By contrast, "Straw Dogs" considers what politics might be like if we took science seriously -- if we accepted the full ramifications of Darwin's finding that Homo sapiens is merely another kind of animal. If, as Gray writes, "species are only assemblies of genes, interacting at random with each other and their shifting environments," then humanity's ambition to master fate is absurd. Those who speak of " 'the progress of mankind,' " Gray contends, "have put their faith in an abstraction that no one would think of taking seriously if it were not formed from cast-off Christian hopes." In the long run, Gray suggests, people are as helpless to control their destinies as pigeons. Thus Western politics (as practiced since Louis XVI lost his head) is vanity. "Good politics," he writes, "is shabby and makeshift, but at the start of the twenty-first century the world is strewn with the grandiose ruins of failed utopias. With the Left moribund, the Right has become the home to the utopian imagination. Global communism has been followed by global capitalism. The two visions of the future have much in common. Both are hideous and fortunately chimerical." The best that we can hope for is government that manages the tragic contingencies of life. The other purpose of the liberal state, "Black Mass" explains, is to protect "a type of civilized life in which rival beliefs can coexist in peace." In this view, government has no place doing missionary work to spread democracy. "In waging war to promote their values actually existing liberal societies are corrupted. This is what happened when torture, whose prohibition was the result of an Enlightenment campaign that began in the eighteenth century, was used at the start of the twenty-first as a weapon in an Enlightenment crusade for universal democracy. Preserving the hard-won restraints of civilization is less exciting than throwing them away in order to achieve impossible ideals," Gray writes, ending with a gravely donnish joust: "Barbarism has a certain charm, particularly when it comes clothed in virtue." Gray's analysis of religion's influence in politics, especially as applied in "Black Mass" to the Iraq war, is uncommon. He writes about religion not as most do -- in a rational sense, considering it as a system of propositional truths -- but in a manner that's both older and more contemporary: as a symbolic phenomenon, like a culture or language, that people use to make sense of ultimate concerns. So when Gray considers the missionary project of this war, he describes insiders' decisions with deep understanding. Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair's complicity in planning the war despite knowing it was based on faulty intelligence, he writes, was not mendacious: "It is not so much that he is economical with the truth as that he lacks the normal understanding of it. . . Blair's untruths are not true lies. They are prophetic glimpses of the future course of history." Passages like this reveal apocalyptic patterns of thought and belief that shaped the utopian project of the war. The Greek word that we translate as "apocalypse" does not refer directly to the end of the world: It means "the lifting of the veil," conveying secret knowledge to a group of privileged people set apart from the rest of humanity. This is why the Book of Revelation is full of inscrutable symbols. This is why John's Gospel opens with that knotty passage about the Word. These texts carried secret knowledge, meant to baffle outsiders and to protect insiders' exclusive claim on truth. Though Gray argues that the tragedy of Iraq will end secular utopian hope, he also thinks that climate change and resource scarcity are inspiring new devotion to violent apocalyptic dreams. His vision of the future, and of religion's role in shaping humanity's fate, is mostly bleak. Yet on the last page of "Black Mass," he grants that "at its best religion has been an attempt to deal with mystery rather than the hope that mystery will be unveiled." Moreover, he notes that some religious myths can help humanity see more clearly. "In the Genesis story humans were banished from paradise after eating from the Tree of Knowledge and had to survive by their labours ever after. There is no promise here of any return to a state of primordial innocence. Once the fruit has been eaten there is no going back." Genesis also tells the story of Noah and the Flood, which Gray does not mention, though it's a clear rebuke of apocalypticism: God promises to wreak no more violent transformation of the world, and that the routine of "seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." Perhaps remembering such myths could make it easier to learn to see ourselves as animals. Yet for this to happen, we would need leaders with the courage to see themselves, and treat the rest of us, as creatures and not as little saviors or little stars. That's almost as unlikely as it is imperative, in a YouTubed culture of relentless video recycling and commentary that pressures public figures to speak and behave with inhuman consistency, which routs ingredients of realism -- uncertainty, subtlety, patience -- from public debate. It would take a presidential candidate as wisely daft as Doctor Dolittle to engage a world where each of us now shares the fate of pushmi-pullyu: that cute, sad two-headed creature, paralyzed by freakish scope of sight. * Michael Joseph Gross is the author of "Starstruck: When a Fan Gets Close to Fame." From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 17:17:12 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:17:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/13/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Why don't you guys do it in style, webcamming everything in realtime > (like on justin.tv) and inviting everyone to participate in the > evening philosophy talk via chat, webcam, SL or whatever (I would be a > very frequent visitor). > > These days every small place described by Pirsig must have a WiFi hub > in a Starbucks or something. We could call the project something like > "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe". What a great > project this would be, perhaps we can even sell it to the networks for > a lot of money and spread H+ at the same time. And later: > Sure I did - my "The new zen and the art of taking over the universe" was a joke! Sorry, I do see it as a flip suggestion of a title, but again, I wasn't taking issue with the words, but the perceived meaning of your post. Anyway, my frustration with the level of discourse (with some notable exceptions!) on the various "transhumanist" lists is beginning to show -- badly -- and I'm going to take all my serious discussion off the public lists effective immediately. - Jef From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 17:27:20 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:27:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520711130927h5f6ec220m31e4c14903793ad5@mail.gmail.com> Don't! For various reasons that I have tried to explain on occasions, I have come to favor an extremely simple and direct way of expression. I favor it for many reasons, and am fully aware that many layers of meaning are lost this way - we need posters like you to keep the balance. G. On Nov 13, 2007 6:17 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > Anyway, my frustration with the level of discourse (with some notable > exceptions!) on the various "transhumanist" lists is beginning to show > -- badly -- and I'm going to take all my serious discussion off the > public lists effective immediately. > > - Jef From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 17:34:04 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:34:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: References: <200711112015.lABKFsv1001444@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <470a3c520711130345i7a65099s6bde8183268164cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62c14240711130934j741bfcd5o3c69810302813698@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2007 12:17 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > Anyway, my frustration with the level of discourse (with some notable > exceptions!) on the various "transhumanist" lists is beginning to show > -- badly -- and I'm going to take all my serious discussion off the > public lists effective immediately. I agree. I wonder though if you feel this frustration with only transhumanists, or if it is a global phenomenon? From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 18:06:21 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:06:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Charlie Stross in Second Life! Message-ID: <470a3c520711131006w640e55bax9bc54444e1aaad34@mail.gmail.com> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/charlie_stross_in_second_life/ I talked to Charlie who promised to do a talk for transhumanists in Second Life. I will contact him to schedule the talk, in a format lecture + Q/A like we used for Kevin Warwick. From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 20:49:01 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:49:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LA Times Book Review: 'Black Mass' and 'Straw Dogs' In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711130837m4b2aa5f5qe3bab0004525c4a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711132048.lADKmcgn005841@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of PJ Manney ... > > Apparently, realizing we are Darwin's animals and not God's children > could go a long way in disabusing us of the unfortunate notion, laden > with unintended consequences and collateral damage, that we can create > utopia. PJ I see your point, and well said PJ, but I would rather we think of ourselves as Darwin's children rather than god's animals. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 13 21:03:58 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:03:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711132130.lADLUEL0007095@andromeda.ziaspace.com> ... > > ... my frustration with the level of discourse (with some notable > exceptions!) on the various "transhumanist" lists is beginning to show > -- badly -- and I'm going to take all my serious discussion off the > public lists effective immediately... I recognize the following comment might be less effective coming from me (historically one of the bigger cut-ups on ExI-chat) but please friends, it is OK to post serious discourse and have fun on the same topic, even mixed within the same post. Humor and whimsy are excellent companions of science and reason, as Hofstadter demonstrates most effectively in GEB. If misunderstandings occur, let us clear them up, laugh them off and move onward, with malice towards none. More Tigger, less Eeyore. Eliezer assures us that there is an infinite amount of fun. I do hope he is right, just in case humanity ever manages to achieve immortality. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 21:44:13 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:44:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Google: "My Library" Message-ID: In an offline conversation it occurred to me that this (partial) shared library listing might be of general interest. When I first visit someone's home, I'm most often draw to look at their book collection, and I'd be interesting in the libraries of other members of the extropy chat list. - Jef From clementlawyer at hotmail.com Tue Nov 13 22:00:25 2007 From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:00:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Google: "My Library" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jef wrote: In an offline conversation it occurred to me that this (partial) shared library listing might be of general interest. When I first visit someone's home, I'm most often draw to look at their book collection, and I'd be interesting in the libraries of other members of the extropy chat list. FYI, if you're a Facebook member, they have an application called Visual Bookshelf that not only lets you list your books, but shows their covers. I've enjoyed browsing the list of books that my friends have read and are now reading. Organizations represented on Facebook include the WTA, Singularity Institute, Lifeboat Foundation, Betterhumans, etc. -------------------------- James Clement, J.D., LL.M. From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 13 21:54:39 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:54:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711132130.lADLUEL0007095@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711132130.lADLUEL0007095@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: Spike, old man. I'm afraid I gave you the wrong impression. Humor's fine with me, and I often embed jokes, self-referential, punny, or otherwise in my writing. I like it a lot. I like to do it. And when others do it I like to watch. Observe, I mean. Humor. Basically I've just decided I need to invest my time more wisely. - Jef From benboc at lineone.net Tue Nov 13 21:56:17 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:56:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473A1D81.8010003@lineone.net> "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" wrote: >I am the first to admit that my country has many problems. But there >is one thing that I am very proud of: we Italians have an instinctive >disrespect for authority, know in our hearts that 99% of politics is >just a make-money-fast scheme, and in general do not take bullshit >seriously. The world needs more of this. A unfortunate side effect is >that we don't really make big efforts at changing things. Interesting. I heartily approve of the attitude, but can't help wondering if it's a significant reason for the current state of Italy? (while sincerely hoping that the answer is "no"!). Or is it the other way round, the current state of Italy gives rise to that kind of attitude? (seems more likely to me, but then i'm biased). Can it be a coincidence that the country where the inhabitants have "an instinctive disrespect for authority, know in their hearts that 99% of politics is just a make-money-fast scheme, and in general do not take bullshit seriously", also has a reputation for corruption and inefficiency, leading to the kind of things that Amara describes? I would say "Hardly". This has me worried. Many of us are minarchists. Do we have any evidence that minarchy would actually work? Any Systems Theory people here have anything to say on this? What would need to be changed about the Italian system as it stands today, to make the above 'Italian attitude' work in an efficient and non-corrupt system? Yeah, i know, that's a huge question and probably nobody can answer it this side of the singularity. ben zed From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 23:29:10 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:29:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Google: "My Library" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200711131729.10879.kanzure@gmail.com> Though not via Google, I host some photographs of my book collection. Recent additions include The Wild, War in Heaven, Hyperion, Mindplayers, Synners, Neptune Crossing, Strange Attractors, Neuromancer, Diaspora, Beyond the Fall of Night, etc. http://heybryan.org/camera/img_8032.jpg -- neglects the Intel architecture books below. Other bookshelf: http://heybryan.org/camera/img_8028.jpg -- including stuff from my younger years (not too long ago?) ... - Bryan From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 14 00:21:01 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:21:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711140020.lAE0Kbl4014824@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > Spike, old man. I'm afraid I gave you the wrong impression. Humor's > fine with me, and I often embed jokes, self-referential, punny, or > otherwise in my writing. I like it a lot. I like to do it. And when > others do it I like to watch. Observe, I mean. Humor. > > Basically I've just decided I need to invest my time more wisely. > > - Jef Oh OK good, thanks for posting Jef. On several occasions I have determined to stop wasting most of my intellectual energy thinking of smirks to post on Exi-chat. I never keep those resolutions as you have seen. {8-] I might hold to it for a while, find some other pursuit upon which to waste my intellectual energy. But I always come back when I think of a good gag or enjoy a heehaw that I want to share. I have been pondering the nature of chat group posting. In the old silent movies, gestures had to be exaggerated to be noticed at all. Likewise in this medium, subtlety is often lost, shades of meaning blurred, leading to misunderstandings. These Pirsig threads are an odd mixture of silliness and semi-deep Zen discussion, so I see it as fertile ground for misinterpretation. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 14 00:26:41 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:26:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711140020.lAE0Kbl4014824@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711140026.lAE0QMMY010025@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike > Subject: Re: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jef Allbright > > Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm > > > > Spike, old man. I'm afraid I gave you the wrong impression. Humor's > > fine with me, and I often embed jokes, self-referential, punny, or... > > - Jef ps Whaddya mean OLD man? It's spike, middle-aged man, please. spike {8-] From mail at harveynewstrom.com Wed Nov 14 01:27:47 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:27:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] robert pirsig's bike in zen and mm In-Reply-To: <200711140026.lAE0QMMY010025@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <6655420397314D118EA9C94076088AB6@Catbert> On Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:27 PM, spike wrote: > ps Whaddya mean OLD man? It's spike, middle-aged man, please. What, are you planning to die before you reach 100? Otherwise, you're not middle-aged yet! Here my theory on "adult" age: My formative years as a child lasted two decades. I had a long, happy childhood, learned a lot of stuff, and did a lot of things. But I never really got serious with a job, sex, interests, my own house, writing a book, developing my interests, or making my own way in the world until I became an adult. Therefore, my first 20 years of life were merely practice years learning to live. My second 20 years comprised my first crack at adult life. At age 40, I was finally an accomplished adult and starting to feel middle-aged. However, I realize that everything I did in my adult life was done in a mere 20 years. >From age 40-60, I am enjoying the opportunity of a second adult life-span. I have time to duplicate everything I have accomplished as an adult all over again. Or I can do something completely different with that time. It is like I get to relive my whole adult life starting again, except a little further in the future, and with a lot more life experience behind me. At ages 60-80, I plan to enjoy a third adult life-span. After two attempts at adulthood, I should really know what I am doing. I should be more financially secure. I wonder what I will do with this future adult lifespan. Whenever I wonder if I have wasted my life being inefficient thus far, I realize that I have another whole adult life waiting. At ages 80-100, I hope to enjoy yet a fourth adult life-span. With life-extension, I hope to live to beyond 100, into my fifth adult life-span. So, I don't feel middle-aged at age 45. I have finished my first adult life-span and am now working on my second one, trying to make it better this time. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 14 17:48:17 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:48:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been Message-ID: What a strange way to leave Italy. Ciao, Amara (In my incoming email this evening as I finish preparing my luggage for my flight out to start my new job.) DECRETA Art. 1 Ai fini del completamento dei requisiti necessari alla stabilizzazione, ? indetta una procedura selettiva, per titoli e prova orale, per il profilo di Ricercatore, riservata al personale titolare di rapporto di lavoro subordinato a tempo determinato con il medesimo profilo, in possesso dei requisiti di anzianit? di servizio per la stabilizzazione di cui all'art. 1, comma 519, della Legge 27 dicembre 2006, n. 296, che sia stato assunto con procedure diverse o che non abbia comunque superato procedure selettive per l'assunzione nel profilo in questione. Art. 2 Candidati ammessi alla procedura E' ammesso a sostenere la predetta selezione il sotto indicato personale, di cui all'elenco dell'art. 2 del Decreto Commissariale n. 73/07 del 13/11/2007, titolare o che ? stato titolare di un contratto di lavoro a tempo determinato con il profilo di Ricercatore, il quale ha prodotto domanda di stabilizzazione nei termini e con le modalit? previste dal Decreto Commissariale n. 24/2007 del 12 luglio 2007 ed ? in possesso dei requisiti di anzianit? di servizio cos? come previsti dall'art. 1, comma 519, della Legge n. 296/2006: Altieri Francesca De Angelis Elisabetta De Rosa Alessandra Filacchione Gianrico Foschini Luigi Graps Amara Lynn Lucchesi David Malizia Angela Masciadri Elena Massetti Stefano Pacciani Luigi Paizis Adamantia Pallocchia Giuseppe Sandri Maura Sidoli Lara Stringhetti Luca -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From moulton at moulton.com Thu Nov 15 00:36:39 2007 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:36:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] View of Earth Photo Message-ID: <1195086999.3042.442.camel@localhost.localdomain> If you want to see an interesting photo: http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/1114moonrisehd550x309.jpg More photos and info at http://www.news.com/2300-11397_3-6218456.html?tag=nefd.top From sentience at pobox.com Thu Nov 15 04:36:10 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:36:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? Message-ID: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his birthday? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 15 04:32:39 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:32:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] View of Earth Photo In-Reply-To: <1195086999.3042.442.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1195086999.3042.442.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20071115043241.PAXK17258.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 06:36 PM 11/14/2007, Fred wrote: >If you want to see an interesting photo: >http://i.n.com.com/i/ne/p/2007/1114moonrisehd550x309.jpg > >More photos and info at >http://www.news.com/2300-11397_3-6218456.html?tag=nefd.top And there we are! Thanks Fred, Natasha >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1129 - Release Date: >11/13/2007 9:22 PM From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Nov 15 05:27:00 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:27:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Polyworld: Using Evolution to Design Artificial Intelligence Message-ID: This may be of interest to the group. This presentation is about a potential shortcut to artificial intelligence by trading mind-design for world-design using artificial evolution. Evolutionary algorithms are a pump for turning CPU cycles into brain designs. With exponentially increasing CPU cycles while our understanding of intelligence is almost a flat-line, the evolutionary route to AI is a centerpiece of most Kurzweilian singularity scenarios. This talk introduces the Polyworld artificial life simulator as well as results from our ongoing attempt to evolve artificial intelligence and further the Singularity. Polyworld is the brain child of Apple Computer Distinguished Scientist Larry Yaeger, who remains the primary developer of Polyworld: http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/P... Speaker: Virgil Griffith Virgil Griffith is a first year graduate student in Computation and Neural Systems at the California Institute of Technology. On weekdays he studies evolution, computational neuroscience, and artificial life. He did computer security work until his first year of university when his work got him sued for sedition and espionage. He then decided that security was probably not safest field to be in and he turned his life to science. (less) Added: November 13, 2007 - Jef From max at maxmore.com Thu Nov 15 07:29:56 2007 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:29:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20071115072924.FUJZ9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> All I can remember right now is that his first name was Dan. My brain is hinting that his surname began with an "M". I'll let you know if I can recall any more. Max At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: >Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was >signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on >September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this >police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his >birthday? > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From max at maxmore.com Thu Nov 15 07:31:25 2007 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:31:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". Hope that helps. Max At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: >Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was >signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on >September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this >police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his >birthday? > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 15 14:09:05 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:09:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20071115140908.RTOD17258.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, Eli wrote: >Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was >signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on >September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this >police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his >birthday? Yes. He was a friend. His name was John Perry. Message #20032 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:51:50 -0700 From: Natasha Vita-More Subject: JOHN PERRY 9/11/02 --=====================_767213990==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was thinking of John Perry today, a former Alcor member who didn't find the time to resign up after an untimely lapse. John was an attorney and policeman in New York City and volunteered to help on 9/11. His body was found. http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=3746 Natasha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Nov 15 14:07:37 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:07:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Paper and patent citations Message-ID: <200711151408.lAFE8Bj87170@unreasonable.com> On another list, a poster reported a citation search to cast aspersions on a scientist: >Breakdown of search results by citation > >All papers Published only >Renowned papers(500+ cites): 0 0 >Famous papers (250-499 cites) : 0 0 >Very well-known papers (100-249) : 0 0 >Well-known papers (50-99) : 0 0 >Known papers (10-49) : 0 0 >Less known papers (1-9) : 4 1 >Unknown papers (0) : 2 0 I was aware of looking at the numbers of cites as a metric of the influence of a paper, but I hadn't seen these bins and labels. (1) Would they be generally accepted as reasonable? (2) What would an equivalent set of bins be for patents? Have you seen a paper or web site that gave the distribution of cites? I'm looking for both papers and patents. The labels for the bins seem overblown, even in a niche. I don't track cites of my papers, but I do track patent cites. I have a patent for inventing heterogeneous configuration management. I'm proud of the work. I think I cleverly solved a tough technical problem. The patent is cited in 150 subsequent patents. But I would guess that most programmers have not heard of HCM, let alone the patent. Out of over 10^6 programmers, I'd guess that there are 5 who have seen the patent, and haven't read it. Maybe 2 who read it, because they are working with a patent attorney. On the other hand, I'd guess that 50-100,000 or so were familiar with the ideas embedded in the patents, aggregating the applicable fraction of our user base with people who read one of the papers I'd written on the subject. And, on the other hand, some of the best inventions in software were not patented. Is number of cites a good metric for the influence of a paper? What would be a good measure for inventions (patented or not)? -- David. From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Nov 15 15:01:44 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:01:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Paper and patent citations Message-ID: <200711151502.lAFF2Jj95612@unreasonable.com> In thinking, ruefully, about the inconsequence of one of my best inventions, it just dawned on me that it may have been much more significant than I'd realized. One of the central concepts in the patent was that when trying to communicate information in a pathname across different programs, operating systems, and/or protocols, the only safe place to embed information is in an interior directory name. When that magic point is reached, its value is used as a database key, and alters the interpretation of the rest of the path, if any. That is, /usr/home/lubkin/projects/editor/v12345/parse.cc This is identical to the design used, for much the same reasons, throughout the web, to make a database lookup look like an ordinary path and filename, viz., http://www.amazon.com/dp/123456789/ref=fdglkjsdfg/foo=sdfgdf or http://myblog.blogboy.xyz/blog/2007/11/2345.html It's hard to believe that this was original to me, but equally hard to believe that none of the technical reviewers -- including the very smartest people at Apollo Computer -- gave any hint that it wasn't original. Do you know of any prior art? My invention was 1988. -- David. From yudkowsky at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 18:03:43 2007 From: yudkowsky at gmail.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:03:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> Message-ID: <402e01e70711151003u74987f90wd773737bd8332465@mail.gmail.com> Max, http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=1834 Is this him? Can you confirm that he was signed up for cryonics and/or that he was an atheist? (Him and John Perry? Two cryonicist police officers rushed into the Towers? I can't even think of what to say. It adds another layer of meaning to the bracelet.) On Nov 14, 2007 11:31 PM, Max More wrote: > Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's > surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". Hope that helps. > > At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: > >Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was > >signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on > >September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this > >police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his > >birthday? -- Eliezer Yudkowsky Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From max at maxmore.com Thu Nov 15 18:24:22 2007 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:24:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <402e01e70711151003u74987f90wd773737bd8332465@mail.gmail.co m> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <402e01e70711151003u74987f90wd773737bd8332465@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071115182313.WEWS9083.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> No, that's not him. That's a Don, not a Dan, and definitely is not the Dan I knew. Max At 12:03 PM 11/15/2007, you wrote: >Max, > >http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=1834 > >Is this him? Can you confirm that he was signed up for cryonics >and/or that he was an atheist? > >(Him and John Perry? Two cryonicist police officers rushed into the >Towers? I can't even think of what to say. It adds another layer of >meaning to the bracelet.) > >On Nov 14, 2007 11:31 PM, Max More wrote: > > Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's > > surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". > Hope that helps. > > > > At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: > > >Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was > > >signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on > > >September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this > > >police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his > > >birthday? > >-- >Eliezer Yudkowsky >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rpicone at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 18:56:55 2007 From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:56:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <20071115182313.WEWS9083.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <402e01e70711151003u74987f90wd773737bd8332465@mail.gmail.com> <20071115182313.WEWS9083.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2007 10:24 AM, Max More wrote: > No, that's not him. That's a Don, not a Dan, and definitely is not > the Dan I knew. > > Max > Google is suggesting that your Dan committed suicide. http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1173105000/Dan+McIntyre- From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 02:18:22 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Ray Kurzweil's upcoming film about the Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0707230512s1672af0dg36eede1411c321c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <985009.96647.qm@web35603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> James Clement initially posted this on the WTA list and I am both extremely excited and yet also nervous about Ray Kurzweil's upcoming film. I hope it is equal to the subject material and that it makes it into enough theaters (with enough advertising & marketing mojo behind them) to have its presence strongly felt. The odds are good it will stir up much thoughtful (and also sometimes thoughtless...) public debate. This could be the huge memetic leap forward we have been dreaming about for so long! Thank you, Ray Kurzweil! John Grigg : ) http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/news/2007/11/kurzweil_qa Coming Soon to a Theater Near You: The Singularity By Eliza Strickland 11.13.07 | 3:00 PM Ray Kurzweil speaks on Singularity at the RAS Conference 2007 in San Francisco, Feb. 7, 2007. Photo: Gabriel Bouys/AFP/Getty Images Ray Kurzweil has plenty of titles already: inventor, author, futurist, techno-optimist, artificial intelligence expert. Now he's adding a Hollywood gloss to that list by writing, directing, producing and acting in his first feature film. He's adapting his latest book to make a movie titled The Singularity Is Near: A True Story About The Future. The "technological singularity" is a concept that's enchanting to some, like Kurzweil, and terrifying to others. As a result of the exponential progress of technology, Kurzweil believes, we're racing towards a day when the power of the artificially intelligent machines we create will exceed human brainpower. Our computers will then carry on fashioning a new world -- with luck, they'll keep our best interests in mind. Wired News talked to Kurzweil about the movie that he hopes will give us a glimpse into that world. Wired News: Can you tell me a bit about the structure of the movie? Ray Kurzweil: There's an intertwined A-line and B-line: The A-line is a documentary, and the B-line is a narrative. Did you see What The Bleep Do We Know!? I didn't like the movie that much. But you can convey information well with that structure. On its own, the narrative line is so specific, it can't give you all the information. But sitting through 100 minutes of a documentary can be ponderous. So we're combining the two. WN: What's in the documentary part? Kurzweil: It contains footage of myself, and also me interviewing 20 big thinkers, talking about their ideas, and their ideas about my ideas. We have people like Eric Drexler, one of the founders of nanotech; Aubrey de Grey, a theorist about radical life extension; Bill Joy. Bill Joy had a famous cover story in Wired that created a firestorm, because you had a technological leader talking about the dire prospects of technology. His article was based on my previous book, The Age of Spiritual Machines. He and I are often compared. Even though I'm known as an optimist, I've always investigated the promise of new technology versus the peril. In that Wired article, Bill Joy focused on the peril. WN: So you're debating some of these people in the interviews? Kurzweil: Yes, there's Bill McKibben -- have you ever heard about this phenomenon called global warming? Well, he coined the term. He has a book called Enough, where he says we should not pursue more GNR -- that's genetics, nanotech, robotics. He argues for the relinquishment view, and says, "Let's relinquish these new technologies, they're too dangerous." That's not a view I can accept, for three reasons. One, it would deprive us of all the benefits, like curing cancer. One of the questions I ask him is, "If you really want to stop global warming and wean us from fossil fuels, and (technological progress) is the only way to do it, would you give it up?" Second, it would require an authoritarian system to implement such a drastic change. Third, it wouldn't work, it would just drive the technology underground. WN: OK, that's the A-line. What's the narrative you use for a B-line? Kurzweil: The narrative story is an outgrowth of the Ramona Project, which I started in the year 2000. I gave a presentation at TED 2001 (the Technology Entertainment Design conference) -- the theme was that in virtual reality you can be someone else. I turned myself into a computer avatar named Ramona. I had magnetic sensors in my clothing, picking up all my motions and sending the data to Ramona, who followed my movements in real time. My voice was turned into Ramona's voice, so it looked like she was giving the presentation. I was standing next to the screen, so people could see what was happening. A band came onstage, and I sang two songs: "White Rabbit," and a song I wrote called "Come Out and Play." Then my daughter came out, who was 14 at the time, and she was turned into a male backup dancer. Her avatar was in the form of Richard Saul Wurman, the impresario of the conference. He's kind of a heavyset gentleman, not known for his hip-hop kicks, so it was quite a show. WN: Ramona is also a presence on your website, right? You can interact with her, ask her questions, and sort of test her artificial intelligence. Kurzweil: Right. It's a real 20-year project of mine, to create an AI that can pass the Turing Test. WN: So in the movie's narrative, Ramona the avatar is the main character? Kurzweil: It's a Pinocchio story. She detects a "gray goo" attack, an attack of self-replicating nanobots. The Department of Homeland Security is oblivious to this, and won't listen to her, so she gets her other avatar friends to work on this. But she breaks some homeland security protocols in the process. She's arrested -- and there's a discussion about how you can arrest a virtual person. She hires (civil rights attorney) Alan Dershowitz to defend her, and also to establish her rights as a legal person. She feels she's human enough to have human rights. There's a whole courtroom scene, and finally the judge says, "OK, I'll grant your legal rights if you can pass the Turing Test." She hires Tony Robbins, the motivational speaker, to help her become more human, and the plot goes on from there. WN: You're making a thriller! That's ambitious. How far along in the process are you? Kurzweil: We have filmed the whole A-line documentary, and we're editing it now. We're in pre-production for the B-line; we will shoot that in the spring. This will be released in late '08. WN: Who's playing Ramona? Kurzweil: It stars Pauley Perrette, who plays a very gothy, punky computer sleuth in (TV crime show) NCIS. She's perfect for the part. I play myself in the future, and I have a complex relationship with this woman in the movie. She's a creation of mine, kind of like a daughter of mine, but ancient taboos aren't relevant, so there's a romantic element. And she's trying to become independent, so there's a Pinocchio aspect. WN: You've already written a book explaining your theories about the approach of singularity; why did you want to do a movie? To spread the meme further? Kurzweil: Yes, but it's not just an idle desire to spread the meme -- like, I had this idea, and now I want everyone to know about it. There's so much discussion that's totally unrealistic, because people are not aware of this topic. Al Gore gets up there to do his PowerPoint presentation on global warming, and he says, "Within 100 years, carbon levels will be here," as if nothing's going to change! As if it's going to be the same old world in 100 years. He never once mentions nanotechnology. WN: So you're trying to make people understand how the exponential advances in technology will abruptly and unexpectedly solve many of the world's problems? Kurzweil: Think how different the world was 10 years ago -- 10 years ago, most people didn't use search engines. That sounds like ancient history now. Generally, people think linearly. I think it's critical that people understand that linear thinking no longer applies. If we capture one part out of 10,000 of sunlight that falls on the earth, we can solve our energy problems. And nanotech will give us the capacity to store (that solar energy). Radical life extensions mean that the current discussion of social security is completely unrealistic. People say, "Oh, there's going to be a deficit in 2027." Their model is based on linear predictions on longevity, productivity and economic growth. The situation will be different when you have 65-year-olds who look and act 35 years old. WN: It's certainly true that linear thinking runs through everything we do. Kurzweil: For thousands of years, it actually served our needs to think linearly. If you think about our genes and our brains, they obviously evolved into their modern forms before advanced technology. If you saw something in the trees coming towards you, and you made a linear projection about where it would be in 15 seconds, and where you needed to not be, that actually worked very well. But these days we have different kinds of problems, and we need a different kind of thinking. >> --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 17 03:56:12 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:56:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pedestrian bees again In-Reply-To: <6655420397314D118EA9C94076088AB6@Catbert> Message-ID: <200711170422.lAH4MuSp000529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> A few months ago we discussed my observations of dying bees, having never noticed such a thing before last spring. I have an orange tree from which the usual harvest is about half a bushel basket, or a little more than half. This season my entire harvest from that tree is exactly one orange. {8-[ spike From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 04:50:47 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:50:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] pedestrian bees again In-Reply-To: <200711170422.lAH4MuSp000529@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <384675.49534.qm@web35613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> last year in arizona a vast horde of crazed ladybugs viciously attacked a couple out on a hike. Is there a connection here? John spike wrote: > A few months ago we discussed my observations of dying bees, having never > noticed such a thing before last spring. I have an orange tree from which > the usual harvest is about half a bushel basket, or a little more than half. > This season my entire harvest from that tree is exactly one orange. {8-[ > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 17 06:11:30 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:11:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pedestrian bees again In-Reply-To: <384675.49534.qm@web35613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711170638.lAH6cFxN014864@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > > last year in arizona a vast horde of crazed ladybugs viciously attacked a > couple out on a hike. Is there a connection here? John Those were no ladybugs Johnny, but rather the vicious cross dressing Australianized trannybugs, known to stalk unsuspecting victims, attacking when least expected. You could be one such victim, for think about it: when last you were out for a walk, did you even have a shadow of suspicion that you might be suddenly attacked by ravenous hordes of Australianized trannybugs? I thought not. Danger is all around you, my young friend. Under those cute little orange Volkswagen-shaped wings lurks is the soul of a remorseless killer. Should they attack, there would not be enough left for Alcor to freeze. Beware. Be very ware. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: John [mailto:desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 8:51 PM > To: spike66 at att.net > Cc: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: RE: [ExI] pedestrian bees again > > last year in arizona a vast horde of crazed ladybugs viciously attacked a > couple out on a hike. Is there a connection here? John > > spike wrote: > > A few months ago we discussed my observations of dying bees... > > spike From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 17 06:56:26 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:56:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? In-Reply-To: <200711170638.lAH6cFxN014864@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711170723.lAH7NBrD026392@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Physics grokmeisters, have you heard of this? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311952,00.html Laid-Back Surfer Dude May Be Next Einstein Friday, November 16, 2007 A. Garrett Lisi A surfer dude with no fixed address may be this century's Einstein. A. Garrett Lisi, a physicist who divides his time between surfing in Maui and teaching snowboarding in Lake Tahoe, has come up with what may be the Grand Unified Theory. That's the "holy grail" of physics that scientists have been searching for ever since Albert Einstein presented his General Theory of Relativity nearly 100 years ago. Even more remarkable is that Lisi, who has a Ph.D. but no permanent university affiliation, solves the problem without resorting to exotic dimensions, string theory or exceptionally complex mathematics. A successful Grand Unified Theory would use a series of equations to show how the four fundamental forces of nature - gravity, electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces - relate to each other. Electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force, which controls radioactivity, were linked more than 30 years ago, and some progress has been made with linking them to the strong nuclear force, which binds protons together in the atomic nucleus. But gravity has always been an outlier. Not only have all attempts to link gravity to the other three forces failed, but physicists still can't agree on what gravity actually is or how it works. Lisi solves this by using the E8 lattice, an eight-dimensional structure visualized earlier this year in a widely circulated paper. He noticed that several of the equations used to describe the lattice matched those he'd come up with trying to resolve the four fundamental forces. "The moment this happened my brain exploded with the implications and the beauty of the thing," Lisi tells New Scientist magazine. "I thought: 'Holy crap, that's it!'" By mapping known subatomic particles, plus 20 imaginary ones, onto the 248 points of the E8 lattice, and then rotating the lattice in a computer model, Lisi shows how the particles elegantly combine to form three of the four forces. The imaginary ones combine to form gravity, for which subatomic particles have only been theorized. "Some incredibly beautiful stuff falls out of Lisi's theory," David Ritz Finkelstein of Georgia Tech tells New Scientist. "I think that this must be more than coincidence and he really is touching on something profound." But Professor Marcus du Sautoy of Oxford tells Britain's Daily Telegraph that "there seem to be a lot of things still to fill in." For his part, Lisi self-mockingly calls his finding "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything," and downplays the suggestion that it may be the Grand Unified Theory. "The theory is very young, and still in development," he tells the Daily Telegraph. "Right now, I'd assign a low (but not tiny) likelihood to this prediction." He hopes the Large Hadron Collider, or LHC, currently being built on the Swiss-French border will find some of his 20 imaginary gravity-related particles. "This is an all-or-nothing kind of theory - it's either going to be exactly right, or spectacularly wrong," Lisi tells New Scientist. "I'm the first to admit this is a long shot. But it ain't over till the LHC sings." From scerir at libero.it Sat Nov 17 07:46:56 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:46:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? References: <200711170723.lAH7NBrD026392@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <001801c828ee$07e9cef0$86961f97@archimede> > "Some incredibly beautiful stuff falls out of Lisi's theory," > David Ritz Finkelstein of Georgia Tech tells New Scientist. > "I think that this must be more than coincidence and he really > is touching on something profound." I do not understand this stuff. But Finkelstein does. Lisi's paper: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0711.0770 His TOE does not explain this: http://sifter.org/~aglisi/ Back-reactions: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/11/theoretically-simple-exception-of.h tml http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=617 Something simpler: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-xHw9zcCvRQ From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 17 07:34:02 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:34:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pederastrian bees again In-Reply-To: <200711170638.lAH6cFxN014864@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <384675.49534.qm@web35613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711170638.lAH6cFxN014864@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071117012358.022c40d8@satx.rr.com> At 10:11 PM 11/16/2007 -0800, Spike wrote: > > last year in arizona a vast horde of crazed ladybugs viciously attacked a > > couple out on a hike. Is there a connection here? John > >Those were no ladybugs Johnny, but rather the vicious cross dressing >Australianized trannybugs Do not be misled by this unsubstantiated allegation, John! Spike has been lad astray by reckless rumor. These booted louts in packs are actually the dreaded and reviled English ladbugs. (Sometimes known as hooligbuggers, for obvious taxonomic reasons.) Possibly this slander on my great nation began with the arrival of a Pride of innocent Australianized Gaydybug Paraders, or maybe a cohort of flamboy-ant Les Girliebugs (pronounced Lay, of course, in the French manner, not Lez) from King's X in Sydney. Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 18 00:10:07 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:10:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711180010.lAI0AATI021734@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Amara wrote: > Ai fini del completamento dei requisiti necessari alla stabilizzazione, Translation please? Should be a cool post, starting out with a comment about artificial intelligence. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:48 AM > To: Transumanisti at yahoogroups.com; extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been > > > What a strange way to leave Italy. > > Ciao, > Amara > > (In my incoming email this evening as I finish preparing > my luggage for my flight out to start my new job.) > > > > DECRETA > Art. 1 > > Ai fini del completamento dei requisiti necessari alla stabilizzazione, > ? indetta una procedura selettiva, per titoli e prova orale, per il > profilo di Ricercatore, riservata al personale titolare di rapporto di > lavoro subordinato a tempo determinato con il medesimo profilo, in > possesso dei requisiti di anzianit? di servizio per la stabilizzazione > di cui all'art. 1, comma 519, della Legge 27 dicembre 2006, n. 296, che > sia stato assunto con procedure diverse o che non abbia comunque > superato procedure selettive per l'assunzione nel profilo in questione. > > Art. 2 > Candidati ammessi alla procedura > > E' ammesso a sostenere la predetta selezione il sotto indicato > personale, di cui all'elenco dell'art. 2 del Decreto Commissariale n. > 73/07 del 13/11/2007, titolare o che ? stato titolare di un contratto di > lavoro a tempo determinato con il profilo di Ricercatore, il quale ha > prodotto domanda di stabilizzazione nei termini e con le modalit? > previste dal Decreto Commissariale n. 24/2007 del 12 luglio 2007 ed ? in > possesso dei requisiti di anzianit? di servizio cos? come previsti > dall'art. 1, comma 519, della Legge n. 296/2006: > > Altieri Francesca > De Angelis Elisabetta > De Rosa Alessandra > Filacchione Gianrico > Foschini Luigi > Graps Amara Lynn > Lucchesi David > Malizia Angela > Masciadri Elena > Massetti Stefano > Pacciani Luigi > Paizis Adamantia > Pallocchia Giuseppe > Sandri Maura > Sidoli Lara > Stringhetti Luca > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From scerir at tiscali.it Sun Nov 18 09:10:32 2007 From: scerir at tiscali.it (scerir at tiscali.it) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:10:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been Message-ID: <19428590.1195377032585.JavaMail.root@ps9> > > Ai fini del completamento dei requisiti necessari alla stabilizzazione, .. > Translation please? Should be a cool post, starting out with a comment > about artificial intelligence. Cool indeed. It is the so called 'provvedimento per la stabilizzazione dei lavoratori precari.' Essentially, a new law (beginning of 2007 I guess) to give a stable position to workers (i.e. researchers) who, at present time, do not have a stable position (their position is uncertain, unstable, precarious, despite they are working in that precarious position since long time - 5 years at least I suppose). Notice that the number of these 'precari' is around 100,000 or more. And their salary was very low. Should this 'stabilizzazione' apply in any case, to all the 'precarious' positions? I think the number of positions that are going to be 'stabilizzate' is limited by the present general financial condition. ________________________________________________ Tiscali Voce 8 Mega (Telefono+Adsl). Attiva entro il 22/11/07: chiami in tutta Italia e navighi SENZA LIMITI A SOLI 4,95? AL MESE FINO AL 31/03/2008! Dal 1? aprile 2008 paghi 28,95 ? al mese. http://abbonati.tiscali.it/telefono-adsl/prodotti/tc/voce8mega/ From scerir at tiscali.it Sun Nov 18 09:48:18 2007 From: scerir at tiscali.it (scerir at tiscali.it) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:48:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been Message-ID: <26881934.1195379298676.JavaMail.root@ps9> http://www.inaf.it/struttura-organizzativa/direzione- amministrativa/ufficio-3-gestione-del-personale/decreti-e-determine- dell-ufficio-del-personale/2007/decreto-ammissione-stabilizzazione.doc The link above (Decreto 73/07) is a specific selection of 'precarious' workers (administratives, researchers, etc.) that can be 'stabilizzati', that are going to be 'stabilizzati' only after a specific selection, that cannot be 'stabilizzati'. It's all done with smoke and mirrors. s. What I remember most, however, is not Weisskopf's comment, but a story told by Stephan Berko, my freshman physics professor in 1966-67, who was also in the audience at that talk. After listening to the rather inconclusive discussion among Mermin, Weisskopf, and others, Berko recalled something that Bohr said to him- in fact, the only thing Bohr ever said to him directly. Berko had been visiting the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen in 1958 and attended a holiday party, which featured a magic show. After watching some particularly baffling magic tricks, Bohr turned to him and said, "It's all done with smoke and mirrors!" -Michael Gerver ________________________________________________ Tiscali Voce 8 Mega (Telefono+Adsl). Attiva entro il 22/11/07: chiami in tutta Italia e navighi SENZA LIMITI A SOLI 4,95? AL MESE FINO AL 31/03/2008! Dal 1? aprile 2008 paghi 28,95 ? al mese. http://abbonati.tiscali.it/telefono-adsl/prodotti/tc/voce8mega/ From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Nov 18 07:19:53 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 23:19:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115140908.RTOD17258.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <008901c829b3$850792d0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Natasha is correct. His name is/was John Perry. He was a black fireman or police officer, and a cryonicist. Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: Natasha Vita-More To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? At 10:36 PM 11/14/2007, Eli wrote: Does anyone know the name of the Extropian police officer who was signed up for cryonics, but rushed into the World Trade Center on September 11th and was lost? Also, can anyone verify whether this police officer was an atheist? And finally, does anyone know his birthday? Yes. He was a friend. His name was John Perry. Message #20032 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:51:50 -0700 From: Natasha Vita-More Subject: JOHN PERRY 9/11/02 --=====================_767213990==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was thinking of John Perry today, a former Alcor member who didn't find the time to resign up after an untimely lapse. John was an attorney and policeman in New York City and volunteered to help on 9/11. His body was found. http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=3746 Natasha _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 17 23:04:21 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:04:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] pederastrian bees again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071117012358.022c40d8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710591.67499.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i think they all are related to the dastardly and very common "thugbug!" if you look very closely you will see they only superficially resemble ladybugs because instead of black dots they sport the dark images of tiny crossed hammers.. John Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:11 PM 11/16/2007 -0800, Spike wrote: >> > last year in arizona a vast horde of crazed ladybugs viciously attacked a >> > couple out on a hike. Is there a connection here? John >> >>Those were no ladybugs Johnny, but rather the vicious cross dressing >>Australianized trannybugs > Do not be misled by this unsubstantiated allegation, John! Spike has > been lad astray by reckless rumor. These booted louts in packs are > actually the dreaded and reviled English ladbugs. (Sometimes known as > hooligbuggers, for obvious taxonomic reasons.) > Possibly this slander on my great nation began with the arrival of a > Pride of innocent Australianized Gaydybug Paraders, or maybe a cohort > of flamboy-ant Les Girliebugs (pronounced Lay, of course, in the > French manner, not Lez) from King's X in Sydney. > Damien Broderick > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 15 07:49:02 2007 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry Colvin) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:49:02 +0700 (GMT+07:00) Subject: [ExI] Fw: TV Analog to Digital Conversion Message-ID: <15110847.1195112942741.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Forwarded Message----- >From: Terry Colvin >Sent: Nov 15, 2007 2:43 PM > >TV ANALOG TO DIGITAL CONVERSION: The US Department of Commerce has announced that >on 17 FEB 09 all television broadcast in the United States will convert from analog >to digital (i.e. DTV) format. Although the conversion will not take effect until >2009, the conversion boxes should be available JAN 08. Following are some consumer >questions with answers regarding the conversion and the Converter Coupon Program: > >1. How do I know whether I need a converter? If you use ?rabbit ears? or a rooftop >antenna for TV reception, you probably need a converter. Television sets connected >to cable, satellite or other pay TV service do not require converters. Televisions >with digital tuners also do not need converters. Take a short quiz at the DTV Transition >Web site www.dtvtransition.org to see whether the converter box is the right option >for your household to make the digital transition. > >2. Can I request my coupons for the converter program today? No. The converter coupon >program will be up and running on 1 JAN 08. At that time, the government will begin >taking requests for coupons. > >3. Can I pre-order my coupons before 1 JAN 08, by providing my address to the government? >No. By law, requests for coupons cannot be taken before 1 JAN 08. > >4. How can I request my coupons? Requests will be taken beginning 1 JAN 08, and >going through 31 MAR 09. Check back to this website during that period of time to >find out convenient ways to request your coupons, including calling a toll-free >number. > >5. How do I know whether I'm eligible for a coupon? All households in the United >States and its territories are eligible for coupons on a first-come-first-served >basis. > >6. How many coupons can I request? Each household can request a maximum of 2 coupons. > >7. What is the value of a coupon? Each coupon is worth $40. Only one coupon can >be used per converter. > >8. What information do I need to provide the government to request my coupons? The >government only requires information necessary to mail coupons: name, household >address and number of coupons needed (maximum of 2). Applications will be made available >beginning in 2008. > >9. Will my coupons expire? Yes. Coupons will expire 90 days after they are issued. > >10. Will I still need an antenna to receive my programming? Yes. If you currently >use an antenna to receive your over-the-air programming, you will still need it >after you install a converter. > >11. Where can I buy a converter? Coupon-eligible converters are currently not in >stores. Beginning in early 2008, they will appear in stores where you would also >buy televisions and other consumer electronics products. > >12. Can I buy a converter online? It is expected that online retailers will participate >in the Coupon Program. Again, check back to this website in early 2008 to see a >list of participating retailers. > >13. Can I use my coupon(s) to purchase any converter? No. The government will provide >a list of eligible converters and participating retailers on its website. Consumers >can also ask participating retailers what converters in their stores can be purchased >with a government coupon. > >14. Can I use my coupon to purchase other consumer electronics products, such as >DVD recorders or televisions? No. Coupons will be electronically coded to be redeemable >only for purchase of eligible converters. > >15. Can I use my coupon to get $40 off a converter I've already purchased? No. >Coupons must be presented at the point of sale and must be redeemed at the time >converters are purchased. > >16. Will I need to buy a new television after 17 FEB 09? No. Your existing television >sets will continue to work after the digital transition if they are connected to >converters. You do not need to discard your analog sets. > >17. Will I receive Closed Captioning through a converter? Yes. Manufacturers of >converters are required to pass through Closed Captioning to display on your television. > >18. Will I receive High-Definition TV with the aid of a converter? No. Analog televisions >are not capable of displaying high-definition resolution, but the picture will generally >be better with a converter. If you want to view high-definition TV, then you will >need one of the newer sets rated for "high-definition" resolution. > >19. How do I know whether my facility is eligible for coupons? For example, are >prisons or group homes eligible to receive coupons? Applicants must meet the Census >definition of a household as consisting of "all persons who currently occupy >a house, apartment, mobile home, group of rooms, or single room that is occupied >as separate living quarters and has a separate U.S. postal address." > >20. Why is the transition from analog to digital television happening? Because digital >broadcasting is more efficient than the current "analog" technology, less >of the airwaves are needed to provide programming to consumers. The unused spectrum >which broadcasters no longer require will be used for two important purposes. First, >it will be given to first responders - our nation's firefighters and police >- to better communicate with each other during emergencies. Second, this spectrum >will be auctioned off to provide innovative wireless broadband services to consumers. > >For additional information about the digital television transition, refer to the >following Web sites to become familiar with your options for making a smooth digital >transition: >? www.dtvtransition.org - a one-stop clearinghouse of consumer information and tools >to manage the digital transition, hosted by the DTV Transition Coalition. >? www.dtv.gov - this is a government site offering comprehensive resources, including >a consumer guide on what to look out for as the digital transition approaches. >? www.myceknowhow.com - the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) offers this >information to help consumers understand various available equipment options. >? www.ceretailers.org - representing consumer electronics retailers, CERC (Consumer >Electronics Retailers Coalition) offers a Q & A about the transition as well >as a consumer advisory alerting consumers to the cutoff date. >[Source: Various Nov 07 ++] > > > >Terry W. Colvin >Ladphrao (Bangkok), Thailand >Pran Buri (Hua Hin), Thailand Terry W. Colvin Ladphrao (Bangkok), Thailand Pran Buri (Hua Hin), Thailand From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Nov 18 15:58:34 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:58:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Italy - salone dell'italiano dei futurists e di transhumanist Message-ID: <20071118155837.BHCI9083.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> If any transhumanists are in Italy and would like to meet me and other transhumanists in Milan from December 1-13, or in Florence from December 8-9, please email me off list. (I hope this translation is correct: salone dell'italiano dei futurists e di transhumanist. I have not been back to Italy since I was lived there in the 1970s. So, my Italian is rusty.) Ciao! Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty of Technology School of Computing, Communications and Electronics Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 18 16:29:48 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:29:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been In-Reply-To: <19428590.1195377032585.JavaMail.root@ps9> Message-ID: <200711181656.lAIGuUSS022286@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir at tiscali.it > Subject: Re: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been > > > > Ai fini del completamento dei requisiti necessari alla > stabilizzazione, .. > > > Translation please? ... > > ... Essentially, a new law (beginning of 2007 I guess) > to give a stable position to workers (i.e. researchers) who, at > present time, do not have a stable position (their position is > uncertain... Oh OK. I was way off then. I thought that first line was saying: "Artificial intelligence completely deletes the needs you requested for stabilization of the followers of Alla." spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Nov 18 16:02:42 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:02:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <200711180010.lAI0AATI021734@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711180010.lAI0AATI021734@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1195401728_11978@S3.cableone.net> It's been a considerable time since I last looked at this. It seems to me there are a number of people who vanished and the history page doesn't go back very far. There is also a sub category "extropians" with only three people in it. I am extremely reluctant to edit there where it involves me. So if anyone wants to add me to that category please do. One other thing, is Bill Joy really considered a transhuman? Keith From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Nov 18 18:19:18 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:19:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanists In-Reply-To: <1195401728_11978@S3.cableone.net> References: <200711180010.lAI0AATI021734@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1195401728_11978@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <20071118181921.UFDX12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> It is a pretty much a socialist Democratic Transhumanist manipulation of history. Most edits are blocked by Loremaster who has been entering most Wikipedia information related to transhumanism. Natasha At 10:02 AM 11/18/2007, you wrote: >hkhenson Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 21:40:30 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:40:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Boko's Transhumanism NOW? Message-ID: <200711181540.30910.kanzure@gmail.com> I note that there is an old link on Anders' page and in Eugen's bookmarks to something called "Transhumanism NOW". What was this? The Internet Archive does not have a copy of it off the old umich.edu servers. - Bryan From sentience at pobox.com Sun Nov 18 22:28:04 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:28:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> Message-ID: <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > Yes. He was a friend. His name was John Perry. Max More wrote: > Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's > surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". Hope that helps. Thanks, both. (I thought I'd sent an earlier email but it's not showing up in my inbox.) I hope it doesn't sound too horribly insensitive to say this, but if anyone can think of a definite, confirmed, unamgiguous case of an atheist sacrificing their life while being current in a cryo arrangement, it would be the ultimate counterevidence to the "selfish cryonicist" meme. I wish I didn't have to look for a completely airtight case, but you know the kind of debaters we're up against. I.e., "Maybe John Perry thought better of your damned crazy idea and that's why he wasn't signed up any more." -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From scerir at libero.it Sun Nov 18 22:18:56 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:18:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been References: <473F9CBA00178555@mail-mx-3.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster@mail-mx-3.tiscali.it) Message-ID: <002c01c82a31$0396aeb0$70ba1f97@archimede> spike: > Oh OK. I was way off then. I thought that first > line was saying: > "Artificial intelligence completely deletes the needs > you requested for stabilization of the followers of Alla." That would be possible in few years (we already have about 400 'Alla' churchs here). But for now our lawgivers are still wise, reasonable, and sensible. Here an example. 'Unborn childs, suffering from mental illness or intellectual handicap, must fulfil, in 12 months from their birth, the obligation ....'. Errors? Misinterpretations? No. Below the original text. Law 23 dicembre 1996 n. 662 (art. 1, co. 255). 'Per i nascituri affetti da minorazione psichica o intellettiva il termine per adempiere all'obbligo di cui al comma 254 ? fissato al dodicesimo mese dalla nascita.' From kanzure at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 02:21:37 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:21:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Draft: Transhumanist Technical Roadmap Message-ID: <200711182021.37399.kanzure@gmail.com> I had an excellent time this evening in Austin with Natasha and Max (and apparently missed the #immortal chat with Betterhumans in the process). I also had the opportunity to discuss the roadmap. I have been drafting over the past week and think that now is a good time to show its work. I am asking for any comments, suggestions, ideas, etc., and in another week I'll throw up a copy on to a wiki somewhere and we can all edit it together. Lots of ideas to add, lots of goals and methods to achieve these goals. Let's get it done. The draft is at and a copy is pasted below: http://heybryan.org/transhuman/roadmap.html Bryan's Transhumanist Technical Roadmap DRAFT http://heybryan.org/ Nano * Nanotech bibliography and BibTeX. Brief notes -- Molecular nanotechnology (MNT) requires atom holography and lasers for object-specific construction. I haven't been able to come up with better ideas (and I don't like waiting). - Track down the carbon nanotube (CNT) recipes Brief summary of atom holography: In the 1920s, Einstein and Bose hypothesized on a new type of matter that they called a condensate (BEC); and soon de Broglie hypothesized the wave/particle duality of both light (photons) and matter.. In the '90s, researchers (Ketterle, etc.) developed the first machines to make a BEC in the lab, and a Nobel prize was awarded for this research. These machines use the laser-cooling technique to bring down matter to ultracold temperatures inside vacuums. The MOT (magneto-optical trap) is used to guide atoms into the center of its chamber and then maybe three (red) lasers shine into the atoms from different directions such that the atoms have no where to move, and in this way they lose energy and eventually become a condensate where they exhibit this sort of 'shared' quantum wave. Over the last decade in Japan, Shimizu has been working on "atom holography" where a matter beam (magnetically controlled BEC) is shot into slits on a plate. These microscopic slits have electrodes that modulate an electric field, causing the matter beam to change shape as it passes through each of the different slits. Shimizu et al. have successfully written words and symbols using this technique, implanting atoms on a surface that are later viewable with electroscopes. Meystre at the University of Arizona has stated that "we could copy objects." Indeed- that and much more, perhaps even bootstrapping MNT. The BEC setups are estimated to cost $300k USD, but this is with all factory-purchased parts. ( I have a zip file of many important papers, and maybe 80 megabytes of images of the setups, the schematics, etc. Also a large bibliography. ) Cryo * Cryogenics bibliography and BibTeX. * Towards the ability to cryogenically store material without crack formation ** Temp-curve fitting tech to ensure smooth/proper descent to cold temps Insert here cryonics protocols (vitrification, preparation, etc.). Preservation of life, reincarnation, immortality Fahy, Eugen Leitl, Ben Best Alcor Life Extension Foundation Cryonics Institute American Cryonics Institution Cryonics Society of Canada CryoNet LifeNet project: volunteer network that goes where-ever there are firestations and police stations. The goal is to minimize the amount of time to reach anybody who dies on the continent within 30 minutes and to cryogenically store them (they are already "dead": they might never know). Calculations show that there would need to be at least 150k locations and that there is one death every 14 hours per 50 km^2 average in USA. Neuro paper archive (brain implants, MEAs, mindlinks, neurohacking) previous notes Add my notes on subminds plus mice experimentation "Intelligence" augmentation and amplification Multitasking and breaking out of our "action bottleneck" The human action bottleneck is the amount of action that can be taken at any one time. While the human physiology maintains itself with parallel circuitry, metabolic pathways, and trillions of cells, human output is reduced to ten fingers, arms, legs, vocal output, etc., capping information output (not necessarily information production). There are rare individuals on the planet and throughout history who have seemingly broken out of action bottlenecks, in fact many have and are usually known as professors, who have the unique opportunity of exploring idea space with the help of their students, assistants, etc. However, this mindlink (proffessor-student) is poor and still suffers from action bottleneck especially as the system is scaled upwards and a beaurocracy develops. To remedy this situation, I propose research into direct neural interfaces with "subminds" such that information is directly transferred from the lobes of the mainbrain to other beings, either the typical brain-in-a-jar (with a robotic body), or to an untethered human body (maybe a clone, or maybe a monkey (opposable thumbs are useful)). Submind connectivity will be similar to "mindbot" modularity. Mindbots are defined as software agents (or "bots") that interface directly with neurons and listen (sometimes speaking) for commands, analyzing the signal spikes and transforming the spikes into some computational action. The similarity between a submind and a mindbot (or agent or avatar) is useful and may provide for readily switchable brain components. For example, a simple and common mindbot already in production is the auditory prosthesis that listens to the air and whispers sounds to the neurons, or the more recent research that is expected to lead to a mute being able to talk via 41 neurons and some fancy analysis software within the next few weeks. By porting redundant mental operations, or even physical tasks, to mindbots/agents/avatars, such as cooking, mowing lawns, calculating and doing basic algebra, screening job candidates, etc., the brain can leave the body to do other (important) tasks while maximizing the amount of action that one can take per second. Recently, Todd Drashner of Orion's Arm emailed the following, which is quite relevant to this idea: On Thursday 25 October 2007 22:33, drashner1 wrote: > As an example of the ideogenetic process, a modosophont might > experience a snatch of rhythmic noise that inspires them to imagine a > tune, which they may eventually turn into the basis for a piece of > music, usually at some point days, weeks, or months after the initial > experience. In contrast, a first singularity transapient experiencing > the same bit of noise might produce several dozen pieces of complete > music, usually in at least half a dozen styles, and a similar number > of literary, visual, and performance art works, each supported by > several hundred thousand words of commentary, notes, and scholarly > writings on the subject of its own work. All within a minute of > hearing the inspirational noise in the first place. And this same > creative impulse can be applied to virtually every other event that > the transapient experiences from moment to moment, all the time. Becoming cyborgs Decoding neural signals Brain transplantation (White's experiments with monkeys) Current tech does 5 MB/sec in/out of the human skull with at least 100x100 tip MEAs. Kevin Warwick has demonstrated sensory augmentation/addition and human-human neural links. Roadmap: more biocompatible materials. Tissue damage due to heat and metal is not good. -- in the mean time I need to come up with enough cash to work with MOSIS on the implants (mice don't cost much). At-home neurosurgery known as "trepanation" (do not forget metal plate to screw into skull). ## Mind Uploading - http://minduploading.org/ - Mind Uploading Research Group (experimental worm-mind uploading) - Joe Strout and his page - Anders' page on MU * Where is the old grass-roots open source group that was researching worm mind-uploading? Experimental mind uploading: - Whole brain simulation (brain data gathered via a variety of methods: Keith F. Lynch nanotech+urine idea, slice-and-scan, gen-eng'd colored proteins in neuro for imaging) - Brain replacement (neuron-by-neuron). Important: Non-nanotechnological mind uploading tactics. -- Slice & scan method (see the connectome project) -- Soft, incremental uploads or brain replacement (lobe-by-lobe) --- Relatively recent "artificial hippocampus" (on a chip) --- Cochlear implants People are cryogenically frozen in the hopes that they will one day be thawed when a cure for some ailment is discovered; similiarly, it should be possible to maintain parts of people on life support indefinitely given AdG's anti-aging research. This will allow for neural tissue cultures or brain regions to be on life support (perhaps indefinitely) linked to silicon interfaces for living an otherwise typical life. How long can we keep neural tissue cultures alive? Astro - Microlaunchers, open source - Getting off the rock (organizations) - Space vehicle designs - Stable, reusable rockets - Review of satellite engineering - Laser communication - LEO/XEO colony designs - Asteroid mining bots (cite recent NASA news re: landing on an asteroid) - Hydrogen harvesting procedures and planned operations (distant, yes) - von Neumann probes (see my implementation notes) - Megascale engineering plans (not immediately necessary) - Space tether/evalator review (here?) (lots of fanboys) Mallove, E. F., and Forward, R. L. Bibliography of Interstellar Travel and Communication. I. J. of Brit. Interplanetary Soc., 27, 921-943 (1974); 11. J.B.I.S. 28, 191 - 219 (1975); 111. J.B.I.S. 28, 405 - 434, 1975). Interstellar communication bibliography - I need a copy Earth-to-orbit Transportation Bibliography Joshua Fox recommends Centauri Dreams: Imagining and Planning Interstellar Exploration There is a flourishing community of space pioneers in what is known as "NewSpace" (in contrast to dinospace) consisting of Bigelow, Masten Space, XCOR, Unreasonable Rocket, and lots of other teams that are busily working to get all sorts of probes, rockets, satellites, UAVs and other craft out into orbit and beyond. Local (citizen) rocket clubs. However, most of this tech and all of the collective experiences seem to be "behind closed-doors," it might be worthwhile to pursue some penetratence into that community, even if we can sneak in one or two observers that grab technical documentation and extrapolate or help arm commoners with the knowledge to get started, even if it means just going to make a CNC shop in a spare garage. Cloning Present here an abstract look at what is possible with technology- cite Kuwabara, the Japanese researcher who built an "artificial womb" or the more recent researchers who have done IVF-on-a-chip. Find the original "Dolly the sheep" PDF. No longer requires embryonic stem (ES) cells (see recent Yamanaka research on iPS cells as well as Shoukhrat Mitalipov on cloned monkeys from skin cells) Cloning humans from scratch Organ cloning/vat-growth (see also "artificial meats" and vertical farming) Human Cloning Foundation - looks unprofessional, assign some H+ web designers to go help them out References Salient to SCNT Human Cloning Handbook and theoretical cloning protocol -- both of these need improvement. Goal: human cloning in a garage, for anybody. Cloning also provides the unique opportunity for neuropsych research into the brain. With artificial wombs and Skinner boxes ("baby-in-a-box") it is possible to completely specify all stimulation and inputs (like nutrients) through a model organism's life. Will similiar brain architectures emerge? What, then, will we learn through slice-by-slice brain upload scanning? Will we discover how precisely different stimulants alter neural tissues (comparative neuroanatomy)? Alt-bods - News: fuel-powered artificial muscles and semi-artificial blood vessels. - Redesigning the human biody, biomedical engineering, artificial organs (cochlear implants included), - Genetic engineering, antiaging, gerontology, Aubrey de Grey Aubrey de Grey paper archive (zip, 25 megabytes) AdG's research deserves a more thorough review. Basically, research is needed to figure out how to clean up metabolic waste and all of the extra gunk leftover in aged cells. Lysosomes need to be replenished. Mitochondria mutations need to be eliminated. AdG suggests stem cell replacement therapy every decade, a massive animal experiment to engineer immortal animals (for testing purposes and to stay ahead of us), and longevity-mice experiments within the next ten years. Insert here a more thorough summary of his papers (from the zip file). Alt-body projects can be of two main types: keep the human body or not. In the first case we see the development of "open prostheses" groups and in the second case there is the development of robots in labs all over the world. Robotic development is mainly geared towards AI research and not body replacements. However, with brain interfacing and brain-in-a-jar, robotic bodies can turn into ideal replacements. Synthetic Biology Synbio review - Venter's "minimal cell" project - Cellular synthesis -- Construct artificial cellular membrane that just barely works and hope that injected cellular mechanisms can slowly repair our poor substitute. Evidence that cells have membrane-repair tech: if meiosis allows for cellular replication, and cells are plus or minus the same volume, where's the surface area of the membrane coming from? So we do not need to mimic a mature cellular membrane. Artificial neurotransmitter receptors ("deceptors" by Freudian-slip) to link with GTP molecules in underlying membrane surface re: cellular signal transduction pathways. "Mind expanding" in a different way. - Genetic engineering Energy - Solar cells and related research -- Proposals of "open source" transhumanist-member projects to launch solar arrays into orbit to harvest energy (potential development into an energy "economy" for ourselves). Holy grail: artificial photosynthesis (recent simulations/optimizations) Matter/energy recycling and upcycling Nucleosynthesis Importance of being able to transmute hydrogen into elements required for our biochemical existence. Note the absurdly large amount of free hydrogen in the universe. Nucleosynthesis-on-a-chip Research plans- nuclear fusion (LOX at MIT ?) AI - Failed methods in AI - Comp sci vision research - Combinatorial explosion / search problem - Failure to define "intelligence" (maybe "intelligence" is not so useful of a concept) - Create AI paper (p)reprint archive (ex: http://arxiv.org/) Cortical simulator Neuronal modeling (ANNs) Our inability to answer the question "what is intelligence" suggests that completely giving up on 'intelligence' might be the right path. Whatever it is that we are trying to do with our computers, it is something other. Insert Goertzel's additions here. Information Humanity is limited by information production/consumption rates in our "internet information ecology". Calculations show that in five generations we will have "hidden" parts of the datasphere (internet included) that will never be read by a human. Text production/consumption is maxed at 40 wpm out and 300 wpm in (average; some are able to do 150 wpm out / 1.2k wpm in with obscure claims of 25kwpm in). We are just coming to the point in our future history where we will fall into "darkness" of the totality of information - and now is the time to fight to keep our heads afloat. Just as we have the Internet Archive and many search engines, need to help fix the single-point-of-failure nature of the WWW, as well as provide for a method of content distribution and backups, esp. as we move closer and closer to mind uploads. Social WTA and the extropians - Roadmap objectives: maintain high signal-to-noise ratio of engineering/science; educate transhumanist-newbies that are willing to become researchers (high priority). - Highlight important researchers, what they are researching, how to fund them. silicon International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors Include a "doomsday ASAP help" file-- i.e., who to contact in case of experimental emergency involving transhumanist tech. a.k.a. "Help! I'm the guy that's caused grey goo! Now what?" From #SL4: - Suggestion of a central coordination agency for this roadmap - Long term projects, feasability studies, - Measurable goals, establish philanthropic funding for the pursuit of transhumanist technology Truly parallel computer architectures (not the "multicore" stuff) From scerir at libero.it Mon Nov 19 06:31:42 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:31:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been References: <473F9CBA00178555@mail-mx-3.mail.tiscali.sys> (added bypostmaster@mail-mx-3.tiscali.it) <002c01c82a31$0396aeb0$70ba1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <000801c82a75$da04b160$75921f97@archimede> 'Unborn childs, ....' should be 'unborn children ....' :-) From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Nov 19 15:25:29 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:25:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 04:28 PM 11/18/2007, Eli wrote: >Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > > > Yes. He was a friend. His name was John Perry. > >Max More wrote: > > Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's > > surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". > Hope that helps. > >Thanks, both. (I thought I'd sent an earlier email but it's not >showing up in my inbox.) > >I hope it doesn't sound too horribly insensitive to say this, but if >anyone can think of a definite, confirmed, unamgiguous case of an >atheist sacrificing their life while being current in a cryo >arrangement, it would be the ultimate counterevidence to the "selfish >cryonicist" meme. I wish I didn't have to look for a completely >airtight case, but you know the kind of debaters we're up against. >I.e., "Maybe John Perry thought better of your damned crazy idea and >that's why he wasn't signed up any more." Here is a thought: Since the term "heros" is in the mainstream, whether instrumental because of the TV show "Heros" or because of a nostalgia for heros in modern culture, the term is used especially at CNN for everyday types of heros who may not hit magazine covers. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/16/heroes.archive/ The term is used to recognize people, who have not performed big acts like John in volunteering to help out at 9/11, but those who do small but crucial acts of bravery and random acts of kindness. Thus, if you are unable to find a cryonicist/achiest who has notable heroic behavior, there may still be someone who has done some act that in and of itself is heroic. In this way, I would say that FM-2030 was a hero. He perpetually helped people on a daily basis. He took phone calls morning, noon, and night to council people who were dealing with problems which affected their lives. In this regard, he was not selfish and no one thought of him as selfish in his relationships with people he counselled - his friends (I am strictly talking about friends or those who came to him for counselling). I don't know all the people suspended, but I feel confident that there are some who are recognized in their communities to have been generous and selfless (meaning not stingy, but not meaning self-less.) Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 17:59:30 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:59:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Banking and e-money in Second Life (and beyond) Message-ID: <470a3c520711190959s68aad42am69360e01f793dfcb@mail.gmail.com> Banking in Second Life and new private e-payment systems: http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/banking_and_e_money_in_second_life_and_beyond/ From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Nov 19 18:34:49 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:34:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] You might find this amusing In-Reply-To: <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha -39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1195497256_10316@S4.cableone.net> Since a lot of you are up on the topic, you might find this amusing, especially the comments about a journal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_November_19 Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Nov 19 19:13:29 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:13:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha -39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1195499576_11861@S4.cableone.net> At 08:25 AM 11/19/2007, Natasha wrote: >At 04:28 PM 11/18/2007, Eli wrote: >>Natasha Vita-More wrote: >> > >> > Yes. He was a friend. His name was John Perry. >> >>Max More wrote: >> > Right after I sent off that last email, I remembered that Dan's >> > surname was "McIntire" or "MacIntire" (or possibly Macintyre". >> Hope that helps. >> >>Thanks, both. (I thought I'd sent an earlier email but it's not >>showing up in my inbox.) >> >>I hope it doesn't sound too horribly insensitive to say this, but if >>anyone can think of a definite, confirmed, unamgiguous case of an >>atheist sacrificing their life while being current in a cryo >>arrangement, it would be the ultimate counterevidence to the "selfish >>cryonicist" meme. snip I am reminded of a related argument from the audience at the WorldCon in Glasgow, (1995) There was a woman at a panel mostly on cryonics who said people signed up for cryonics would not be adventurous and would make the world an insufferably dull place. The previous night I had been helping with the fireworks and was 20 feet from a 12 inch mortar that blew up. When I described this she admitted that perhaps her assessment was off base. Considering that one of my former hobby after signing up for cryonics has put me in danger a number of times and once in a place where I had to jump out of the path of a speeding car to keep from being killed . . . . I suppose I am a weak example of what you are looking for. There are lots of people in the cryonics community who have taken a lot of risk dealing with AIDS patients and related risks but nobody has died yet. You aren't likely to find a full scale example, though John Perry came close. There are not enough people signed up and few such incidents per year, probably in the range of one in a million people per year. So with a thousand people signed up, you should expect on a random basis to have one such incident every thousand years. Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Nov 19 19:18:34 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:18:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Banking and e-money in Second Life (and beyond) In-Reply-To: <470a3c520711190959s68aad42am69360e01f793dfcb@mail.gmail.co m> References: <470a3c520711190959s68aad42am69360e01f793dfcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1195499881_12257@S3.cableone.net> At 10:59 AM 11/19/2007, you wrote: >Banking in Second Life and new private e-payment systems: > >http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/banking_and_e_money_in_second_life_and_beyond/ This is very interesting. It's certainly a supporting reason for why the most likely physical state population for the earth in 2100 is zero. Keith From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com Mon Nov 19 21:19:45 2007 From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <1195499576_11861@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <303174.78680.qm@web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm guessing that the negative personality connotations commonly associated with cryonics/cryonicists are the result of: (a) The fact that it isn't yet possible to revive suspended persons. Cryonically suspended patients exist in an odd cultural "gray area" where they are not alive, but not necessarily "gone forever", either. I think this makes a lot of people uncomfortable because of how "death" is so often associated with "closure". Cryonics complicates the categories people are used to thinking in, so in some respects, perhaps some folks resent those who would "meddle" with that categorical system. (The good news about this line of reasoning is that it will probably become much less common once a complex mammal is successfully reanimated from some form of cryonic suspension -- that is, once suspension/reanimation becomes something we *can* do as opposed to something we *might* be able to do, it will shift in most people's minds from "weird fringe thing for rich crank cases" to "a valid medical care option".) (b) The fact that some cryonicists (or so I've heard, I've never seen evidence of this personally) come across as having "arrogant" or "narcissistic" personalities. Even if annoying personalities aren't over-represented in cryonics in proportion to the rest of the population, anyone who already has a negative view of cryonics will probably eagerly jump on examples that they see as "proving the point". Minorities (of which cryonicists are certainly an example) almost invariably end up dealing with this sort of thing when working toward wider acceptance. This is actually something the disability rights community deals with as well, since persons with disabilities are also frequently accused of "selfishness" (sometimes for the mere fact of asserting that they want to keep on living!), and are held to a curious standard of "moral purity" that nondisabled folks aren't. A person who doesn't use a wheelchair can get angry and everyone just accepts this as something humans do from time to time, but heaven forbid a wheelchair user gets angry -- in many people's minds, that makes them a "bitter, angry cripple". That is, their emotional expressions and/or personality are irrationally connected with the device(s) or technology they make use of as well as with the manner in which they differ from the norm. For cryonicists (who are, in effect, arguing for the right and opportunity to exist in a state that might someday be termed 'extreme disability', albeit hopefully temporarily), the situation is similar: if you're an annoying cryonicist, you're likely to be held up as an example of how interest in cryonics tends to indicate an "annoying personality". And you're also going to be considered "selfish" for wanting to exist for an indeterminate period of time during which you won't be actively contributing toward the economy in an accepted manner. Again, though, I think things will change once someone can vitrify and reanimate a dog or a monkey. - Anne "Like and equal are not the same thing at all!" - Meg Murry, "A Wrinkle In Time" --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 19 17:17:24 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:17:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <473BCCBA.2040501@pobox.com> <20071115073053.MZKB9760.hrndva-omta05.mail.rr.com@MaxDesk.maxmore.com> <4740BC74.7080901@pobox.com> <20071119152532.YFZW28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: On 11/19/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Thus, if you are unable to find a cryonicist/achiest who has notable heroic > behavior, there may still be someone who has done some act that in and of > itself is heroic. In this way, I would say that FM-2030 was a hero. He > perpetually helped people on a daily basis. He took phone calls morning, > noon, and night to council people who were dealing with problems which > affected their lives. In this regard, he was not selfish and no one thought > of him as selfish in his relationships with people he counselled - his > friends (I am strictly talking about friends or those who came to him for > counselling). I don't know all the people suspended, but I feel confident > that there are some who are recognized in their communities to have been > generous and selfless (meaning not stingy, but not meaning self-less.) Natasha - This sounds like the kernel of an idea for some powerful ongoing PR. Oh, if only western language and culture didn't confuse "selfish and "selfless." We could use many more persons with a huge sense of self extending far beyond their own skins. - Jef From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Nov 20 00:49:51 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:49:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? Message-ID: <380-22007112200495131@M2W008.mail2web.com> correction: achiest = atheist council - counsel Original Message: ----------------- From: Jef Allbright jef at jefallbright.net Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:17:24 -0800 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? On 11/19/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Thus, if you are unable to find a cryonicist/achiest who has notable heroic > behavior, there may still be someone who has done some act that in and of > itself is heroic. In this way, I would say that FM-2030 was a hero. He > perpetually helped people on a daily basis. He took phone calls morning, > noon, and night to council people who were dealing with problems which > affected their lives. In this regard, he was not selfish and no one thought > of him as selfish in his relationships with people he counselled - his > friends (I am strictly talking about friends or those who came to him for > counselling). I don't know all the people suspended, but I feel confident > that there are some who are recognized in their communities to have been > generous and selfless (meaning not stingy, but not meaning self-less.) Natasha - This sounds like the kernel of an idea for some powerful ongoing PR. Oh, if only western language and culture didn't confuse "selfish and "selfless." We could use many more persons with a huge sense of self extending far beyond their own skins. - Jef _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From andres at thoughtware.tv Tue Nov 20 03:03:29 2007 From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:03:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Web-bits Summary: Bio, Nano, Robotics, Energy and Security Message-ID: Here are a few articles and multimedia that I think you'll find interesting: *On Biotechnology and Health: * Regenerative Medicine: Pathways To Cure "The Alliance for Medical Research is pleased to present a new video explaining the benefits of Stem Cell Research." - added by arlind at Thoughtware.TV Scientists create 'fearless' mouse "A team of University of Tokyo researchers led by professors Hitoshi Sakano and Ko Kobayakawa have announced they have genetically engineered a mouse that does not fear cats, simply by controlling its sense of smell. By tweaking genes to disable certain functions of the olfactory bulb ? the area of the brain that receives information about smells directly from olfactory receptors in the nose ? the researchers were able to create a "fearless" mouse that does not try to flee when it smells cats, foxes and other predators." - blogged by PinkTentacle.com Deep Brain Stimulation (DBS) "PBS multimedia on a surgical treatment involving the implantation of a medical device called a brain pacemaker, which sends electrical impulses to specific parts of the brain. It is having remarkable therapeutic benefits for otherwise treatment-resistant movement and affective disorders such as chronic pain, Parkinson's disease, tremor and dystonia." - added by arlind at Thoughtware.TV Prosthetic Ankle "The system uses sensors and artificial intelligence to analyze the patient's walking pattern, with the goal of offering an amputee full anatomical range of motion." We Scan your Genome: DeCodeMe "...a revolutionary new service that allows individuals to have their own genome scanned." - added by arlind at Thoughtware.TV *On Energy and Nanotech: * Solar City: The Future Of Nanosolar "Hoping to leave today's silicon solar cells behind, the Palo Alto company Nanosolar is creating paper-thin solar panels harnessing nanotechnology, a product that could revolutionize solar power." by arlind at Thoughtware.TV Nanoassembly By "hand": Pick And Place Of Nanotubes *On Security and Existential Risks:* NEC helps Big Brother watch foreigners in Japan "As many foreign residents in Japan are already painfully aware, a new law that takes effect November 20 will require non-Japanese people entering the country to be fingerprinted and photographed in the name of fighting terrorism." blogged by Pinktentacle.com *On Robotics: * Athlete Prototype: Nasa Moon Truck "This is one of the prototypes NASA and JPL have been working on to transport equipment around the lunar surface." added by andres at Thoughtware.TV The Canadian Fembot You are in for a surprise. "Aiko is the brainchild of robotics developer Le Trung and the first Canadian android to make a public appearance." Interactive Humanoid Robot Enhanced With Virtual Avatar "Augmented Reality is now being used to provide avatars for interactive robots." On Software Development & Web Services: Photo Tourism: Exploring Photo Collections In 3d "Multimedia on a system for browsing large collections of photographs in 3D" added by arlind at Thoughtware.TV -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 20 03:11:47 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:11:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropian police officer who died on 9/11? In-Reply-To: <1195499576_11861@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711200338.lAK3cQhU023429@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson ... > > I am reminded of a related argument from the audience at the WorldCon > in Glasgow, (1995) > > There was a woman at a panel mostly on cryonics who said people > signed up for cryonics would not be adventurous and would make the > world an insufferably dull place... Keith This woman surely never attended a cryoschmooze. Remember those occasional parties we used to have at Ralph Merkel and Carol Shaw's house? Those things were a hoot! I had a blast. I wasn't even cutting up much myself, just listening to Keith and the other cryonauts, the kinds of discussions that would come up there, watching the occasional cryo-virgin, (person who is signed up but isn't accustomed to... us) seeing their expression as they surely wondered what group of crazy wackos they had joined. Ralph's wife Carol was so amazingly sweet and normal, always put the normal guests at ease while the rest of us yukked it up and carried on. Happy memories are these. {8^D spike From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 20 08:31:41 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:31:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf References: <200711200338.lAK3cQhU023429@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> I just saw the movie "Beowulf", it's a pretty good movie but what is of Extropian interest is the stunning advance in animation achieved by good old Moore's Law. There were times when I could swear I was looking at a real human being not something a computer produced. However there is something puzzling, all the voices in the movie were still made by human beings. An innocent might think that as video is a much higher bandwidth media than audio video would be harder to simulate than audio, but apparently that is not the case. John K Clark From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 12:28:12 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 06:28:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711200338.lAK3cQhU023429@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200711200628.12151.kanzure@gmail.com> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 02:31, John K Clark wrote: > still made by human beings. An innocent might think that as video is > a much higher bandwidth media than audio video would be harder to > simulate than audio, but apparently that is not the case. 3D modeling means that you can see what you are making. Audio, not the case. - Bryan From eugen at leitl.org Tue Nov 20 12:54:22 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:54:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711200628.12151.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <200711200338.lAK3cQhU023429@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> <200711200628.12151.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 06:28:12AM -0600, Bryan Bishop wrote: > 3D modeling means that you can see what you are making. Audio, not the > case. I could see voice capturing eventually approaching the utility of motion capturing. How much of budget e.g. of Shrek 3 has been for voice? And these are stars, not your garden variety voice model. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From jcowan5 at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 20 14:53:54 2007 From: jcowan5 at sympatico.ca (Joshua Cowan) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:53:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: I recently heard an interview with someone in the animation industry (sorry, I'll try to find a link but I don't have it handy at the moment). The person said that one of the big issues in creating digital voices is recreating a person's "imperfections". Most of the artificial voices are without any of the barely audible tremors, flat notes... that we expect in human interaction. Needless to say, this should not be an issue that holds back the creation of artificial voices for long but it is a current issue. josh >From: Eugen Leitl >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:54:22 +0100 > >On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 06:28:12AM -0600, Bryan Bishop wrote: > > > 3D modeling means that you can see what you are making. Audio, not the > > case. > >I could see voice capturing eventually approaching the utility >of motion capturing. How much of budget e.g. of Shrek 3 has >been for voice? And these are stars, not your garden variety >voice model. > >-- >Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org >______________________________________________________________ >ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org >8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 17:45:54 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:45:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: References: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> You're all missing a crucial point beyond the uncanny valley and bandwidth: marketing. This movie has Angelina Jolie, Anthony Hopkins, John Malkevich, Robin Wright Penn, etc. Ray Winstone, while not a name in N. America, is a big name in Anglo countries and a fine, award winning actor. Some people will go just to see Angelina Jolie naked, whereas a computer generated generic character's nudity might not be as appealing (although, ironically, I hear she had a body double, which is very common, but disappointing to her die-hard fans). If there were no actors being motion captured or voice recorded, the studios fear CGI films would have less box office. Computer generated performers can't do press junkets and have glossy magazine spreads where they talk about their latest divorce or African baby adoption, at least not until AGI is so sophisticated that each computer has the depth of personality and idiosyncrasies of a human. Only the filmmaker might possibly have name appeal and there are precious few of those guys left. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to see Robert Zemeckis in a sexy gown in a Vogue spread! Actors also bring their unique personas and interesting interpretations to the work that a single filmmaker/creator can't. I don't know about you, but it was the vocal charm and mannerisms of Tom Hanks and Tim Allen that made Toy Story really sing. They bring their art, their essence and their histories to the project, in a way that a purely CG character can't. You can't kill the cult of celebrity. At least not yet. PJ From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 20 19:16:52 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:16:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Aubrey de Grey in Today's Washington Post In-Reply-To: <20071120183446.POWI248.mta11.adelphia.net@StephenColes-PC.grg.org> References: <20071120183446.POWI248.mta11.adelphia.net@StephenColes-PC.grg.org> Message-ID: Full article follows, for easier forwarding and sharing. - Jef "Death-Defying: Aging Can Be Cured, Scientist Maintains" by Joel Garreau The Washington Post Biologist Aubrey De Grey created the Methuselah Foundation to support scientific research that would extend lifespans by, oh, 900 years. (Washington Post Photo) ________________________________________________________ Tuesday, November 20, 2007; Washington, D.C. -- Aubrey de Grey may be wrong but, evidence suggests, he's not nuts. This is a no small assertion. De Grey argues that some people alive today will live in a robust and youthful fashion for 1,000 years. In 2005, an authoritative publication offered $20,000 to any molecular biologist who could demonstrate that de Grey's plan for treating aging as a disease - and curing it - was "so wrong that it was unworthy of learned debate." Now mere mortals - who may wish to be significantly less mortal - can judge whether de Grey's proposals are "science or fantasy," as the magazine put it. De Grey's much-awaited Ending Aging: The Rejuvenation Breakthroughs That Could Reverse Human Aging in Our Lifetime was published in September by St. Martin's Press. The judges were formidable for that MIT Technology Review challenge prize. They included Rodney Brooks, then Director of MIT's Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory; Nathan Myhrvold, a former Chief Technology Officer of Microsoft; and J. Craig Venter, who shares credit for first sequencing the human genome. In the end, they decided that no scientist had succeeded in blowing de Grey out of the water. "At issue is the conflict between the scientific process and the ambiguous status of ideas that have not yet been subjected to that process," Myhrvold wrote for the judges. Well yes, that. Plus the question that has tantalized humans forever. What if the only certainty is taxes? Dodging Death Has Long Been a Dream Our earliest recorded legend is that of Gilgamesh, who finds and loses the secret of immortality. The Greek goddess Eos prevails on Zeus to allow her human lover Tithonus to live eternally, forgetting, unfortunately, to ask that he also not become aged and frail. He winds up such a dried husk that she turns him into a grasshopper. In "It Ain't Necessarily So," Ira Gershwin writes: Methus'lah lived nine hundred years Methus'lah lived nine hundred years But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in To no man what's nine hundred years. Aubrey David Nicholas Jasper de Grey, 44, recently of Britain's Cambridge University, advocates not myth but "strategies for engineering negligible senescence," or SENS. It means curing aging. De Grey says he thinks that with adequate financing, scientists may, within ten years, triple the remaining lifespan of late-middle-age mice. The day this announcement is made, he believes, the news will hit people like a brick as they realize that their cells could be next. He speculates that people will start abandoning risky jobs, such as being police officers or soldiers. De Grey's looks are almost as striking as his ambitions. His slightly graying chestnut hair is swept back into a ponytail. His russet beard falls to his belly. His mustache -- as long as a hand -- would have been the envy of Salvador Dali. When he talks about people soon putting a higher premium on health than wealth, he twirls the ends of his mustache back behind his ears, murmuring, "So many women, so much time." A little over 6 feet tall and lean - he weighs 147 pounds, the same as in his teenage years -- de Grey shows up in a denim work shirt open to the sternum, ripped jeans, and scuffed sneakers, looking for all the world like a denizen of Silicon Valley. Not far from the mark. De Grey's original academic field is computer science and Artificial Intelligence. He has become the darling of some Silicon Valley entrepreneurs who think changing the world is all in a day's work. Peter Thiel, a Co-Founder and former Chief Executive of PayPal -- who sold it in 2002 for $1.5 billion, pocketing $55 million himself -- has dropped $3.5 million on de Grey's Methuselah Foundation. "I thought he had this rare combination -- a serious thinker who had enough courage to break with the crowd," Thiel said. "A lot of people who are not conventional are not serious. But the real breakthroughs in science are made by serious thinkers who are willing to work on research areas that people think are too controversial or too implausible." At midday in George Washington University's Kogan Plaza off H Street, N.W., you are surrounded by firm, young flesh. Muscular young men saunter by in sandals, T-shirts, and cargo shorts. Young blond women sport clingy, sleeveless tops, oversize sunglasses and the astounding array of subtle variations available in flip-flops and painted toenails. Is this the future? "Yes, it is precisely the future," he said. "Except without people who look as old as you and me." "Of course the world will be completely different in all manner of ways," de Grey said of the next few decades. His speech is thick, fast and mellifluous, with a quality British accent. "If we want to hit the high points, No. 1 is, there will not be any frail, elderly people. Which means we won't be spending all this unbelievable amount of money keeping all those frail elderly people alive for like one extra year the way we do at the moment. That money will be available to spend on important things like, well, obviously, providing the health care to keep us that way, but that won't be anything like so expensive. Secondly, just doing the things we can't afford now, giving people proper education and not just when they're kids, but also proper adult education and retraining and so on. "Another thing that's going to have to change completely is retirement. For the moment, when you retire, you retire forever. We're sorry for old people because they're going downhill. There will be no real moral or sociological requirement to do that. Sure, there is going to be a need for Social Security as a safety net just as there is now. But retirement will be a periodic thing. You'll be a journalist for 40 years or whatever and then you'll be sick of it and you'll retire on your savings or on a state pension, depending on what the system is. So after 20 years, golf will have lost its novelty value, and you'll want to do something else with your life. You'll get more retraining and education, and go and be a rock-star for 40 years, and then retire again and so on." The mind reels. Will we want to be married to the same person for a thousand years? Will we need religion anymore? Will the planet fill to overflowing? But first - why are these questions coming up now? And why are we listening to answers from Aubrey de Grey? Why We Age? Aging consists of seven critical kinds of damage, according to de Grey. For example, unwholesome goo accumulates in our cells. Our bodies have not evolved means quickly to clean up "intracellular aggregates such as Lipofuscin." However, outside our bodies, microorganisms have eagerly and rapidly evolved to turn this toxic waste into compost. (De Grey made this connection because he knew two things: Lipofuscin is fluorescent, and graveyards don't glow in the dark.) By taking soil samples from an ancient mass grave, de Grey's colleagues in short order found the bacteria that digest lipofuscin as easily as enzymes in our stomachs digest a steak. The trick now is getting those lipofuscin-digesting enzymes into our bodies. That has not yet been done. But, de Grey says, comparable fundamental biotechnology is already in clinical use fighting such diseases as Tay-Sachs. So he sees it as merely an engineering problem. Examples like this make up the 262 pages at the center of Ending Aging. "It's a repair and maintenance approach to extending the functional lifespan of a human body," de Grey said. "It's just like maintaining the functional lifespan of a classic car, or a house. We know -- because people do it -- that there is no limit to how long you can do that. Once you have a sufficiently comprehensive panel of interventions to get rid of damage and maintain these things, then, they can last indefinitely. The only reason we don't see that in the human body now is that the panel of interventions we have available to us today is not sufficiently comprehensive." By 2005, his ideas had attracted enough attention as to no longer be merely controversial. De Grey was being pilloried as a full-blown heretic. "The idea that a research program organized around the SENS agenda will not only retard aging, but also reverse it -- creating young people from old ones and do so within our lifetime, is so far from plausible that it commands no respect at all within the informed scientific community," wrote 28 Biogerontologists in the Journal of the European Molecular Biology Organization. Their recommendation: more of the patient, basic scientific research that is their stock in trade. "Each idea that we decide to pursue will cost years of work and a great deal of money, so we spend a lot of time -- at meetings, seminars and in the library -- trying to search for and weigh alternatives, and looking for loopholes in our chain of arguments before they are pointed out to us either by peer reviewers or experimental results. "Presented by an articulate, witty and colorful proponent, a flashy research agenda might catch the eye of a journalist or meeting organizer who is hunting for attention, publicity, and an audience; however, the SENS Agenda is easily recognized as a pretence by those with scientific experience. "Why not simply debate with de Grey and let the most convincing arguments win? It is ... our opinion that pretending that such a collection of ill-founded speculations is a useful topic for debate, let alone a serious guide to research planning, does more harm than good both for science and for society." The resulting uproar was followed by the put-up or shut-up smack-down in MIT Technology Review. The upshot was intriguing. "In our judgment none of the 'refutations' succeeded," Myhrvold, one of the judges, wrote in an E-mail. "It was a bit ironic, because they were mostly the work of established scientists in mainstream gerontology who sought to brand de Grey as 'unscientific' -- yet the supposed refutations were themselves quite unscientific. "The 'refutations' were either ad hominem attacks on de Grey, or arguments that his ideas would never work (which might be right, but that is what experiments are for), or arguments that portions of de Grey's work rested on other people's ideas. None of these refute the possibility that he is at least partially correct. "This is not to say that the MIT group endorsed de Grey," Myhrvold emphasizes, "or thinks he has proven his case. He hasn't, but admits that up-front. All of science rests on ideas that were either unproven hypotheses or crazy speculations at one point. ... The sad reality is that most crazy speculations fail. ... We do not know today how to be forever young for 1,000 years, and I am deeply skeptical that we will figure it out in time for me!" No Point in Being Miserable So beyond the question of whether immortality is feasible, is it a good idea? For every Woody Allen who says, "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve it through not dying," isn't there a Ralph Waldo Emerson who asks, "What would be the use of immortality to a person who cannot use well a half an hour?" Why is it, when you bring up the idea of living forever -- even if robust and healthy, not drooling on your shoes -- some people just recoil viscerally? "It's probably the majority that recoils viscerally," de Grey said. "It's what I call the pro-aging trance. "Since the beginning of civilization, we have been aware that aging is ghastly and that aging is utterly inevitable.... So we have two choices. Either we spend our lives being preoccupied by this ghastly future or we find some way to get on with our miserably short lives and make the best of it. "If we do that second thing, which is obviously the right thing to do, then it doesn't matter how irrational that rationalization might be... It could be, 'well, we're all going to go to heaven'. Or it could be, 'we're going to have overpopulation'. Or it could be, 'it will be boring'. Or, 'dictators will live forever'. "It doesn't matter what the answers are. It's so important for them to maintain their belief that aging is actually not such a bad thing, that they completely suspend any normal rational sense of proportion." But if people don't die, won't we indeed fill the planet shoulder to shoulder? "The birthrate is going to have to go down by an order of magnitude," de Grey acknowledges. "But even if that is going to be a severe problem, the question is not, do problems exist? The question is, are they serious enough to outweigh the benefits of saving 100,000 lives a day? That's the fundamental question. If you haven't got an argument that says that it's that serious that we shouldn't save 30 World Trade Centers every day, don't waste my time. It's a sense of proportion thing." So de Grey soldiers on, not that it is anywhere written that anything he advocates will work. His approach, however, does have echoes in history... On October 9, 1903, The New York Times wrote: "The flying machine which will really fly might be evolved by the combined and continuous efforts of mathematicians and mechanicians in from one million to ten million years." On the same day, on Kill Devil Hill, in his diary, a bicycle mechanic named Orville Wright wrote: "We unpacked rest of goods for new machine." From technoprogressif at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 21:27:45 2007 From: technoprogressif at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?=) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:27:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What do you get out of this "Odds of dying" page? Message-ID: <2c8dd2d20711201327j69ff6eccu2b43aca20d33ab84@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm Please to share your insights/ innovations/ inventions/ safety tips/ morbid humour etc The odds of accidents on the road made me think I would encourage the construction of a high speed train from our metropolis to our capital to diminish the car death rate, it also made me think of what Steve Mann said about his bicycle sensor "Every morning I decide how I will see the world that day. Sometimes I give myself eyes in the back of my head. Other days I add a sixth sense, such as the ability to feel objects at a distance. If I'm going to ride my bicycle, I'll want to feel the cars and trucks pressing against my back, even when they are a few hundred feet away" ; how come such a cool device not out there yet? While thinking of Steve Mann on wearable computer and health: "Equipped with various sensors which measure heart rate (and waveform), respiration, footstep rate (and waveform), etc., the apparatus can function as a personal safety device for reducing crime, as well as a personal health monitor for improving health care by encouraging individuals to take an active role in diagnosis and body-maintenance" an inexpensive wearable device for the detection of noxious substances in the air would be nice , too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 22:16:38 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 23:16:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Americans clueless on NASA budgets Message-ID: <580930c20711201416q76c97b6fu53479591384319a@mail.gmail.com> Americans clueless on NASA budgetsSpace: Not as expensive as you thinkBy Lucy Sherriff ? More by this author Published Monday 19th November 2007 17:17 GMT A recent survey, carried out on behalf of *The Space Review*, has revealed that the average American believes a quarter of the country's public purse goes towards funding NASA. The survey found that most people reported the belief that NASA is almost as well funded as the military. The Department of Defense does receive roughly 21 per cent of the nation's wonga, but most people overestimated this by a further 12 per cent. In reality, NASA gets something like 0.6 per cent of the natonal budget, a fact which researchers report came as a surprise to those being surveyed. According to *The Space Review*, one participant replied "No wonder we haven't gone anywhere!". The survey formed part of a larger analysisof the costs and benefits of having a publicly funded space agency. The writers argue that people have scant knowledge of what NASA actually does. Combined with the huge overestimates of the cost of running NASA, it is not surprising that people often regard it as being poor value for money. (R) Bootnote We'd like to add, before the anti-American/pro-American flame wars begin, that we're pretty sure similar levels of daftness pervade our own population. Have you ever watched *Big Brother*? Probably best not to mock * too* loudly. (R) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/19/nasa_budgets/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 20 20:57:47 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:57:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711200338.lAK3cQhU023429@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <001601c82b4f$f30c75f0$51054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200711201557.47449.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 03:31, John K Clark wrote: > An innocent might think that as video is a > much higher bandwidth media than audio video would be harder to > simulate than audio, but apparently that is not the case. Nope. Any audiovisual expert will tell you that humans are much more sensitive to audio deviations than video deviations. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 22:55:31 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:55:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711201655.32051.kanzure@gmail.com> On Tuesday 20 November 2007 11:45, PJ Manney wrote: > This movie has Angelina Jolie, Anthony Hopkins, John Malkevich, Robin > Wright Penn, etc. ?Ray Winstone, while not a name in N. America, is a > big name in Anglo countries and a fine, award winning actor. It might be interesting if each of the actors start to invest the megabucks into digital avatars being created for them - mostly the audio - so that they can work on as many movies as they possibly want, i.e. selling a "package". Of course, they would have to be doing tens of movies at once to make it worthwhile (otherwise they could just speak into an audio setup at home and be done with it). - Bryan From scerir at libero.it Wed Nov 21 07:16:14 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:16:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] greenhouse effect (links) References: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003901c82c0e$67865400$7cbb1f97@archimede> The interesting story of the carbon dioxide greenhouse effect http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm and the 'climate' homepage, by AIP http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 08:29:48 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:29:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What do you get out of this "Odds of dying" page? In-Reply-To: <2c8dd2d20711201327j69ff6eccu2b43aca20d33ab84@mail.gmail.com> References: <2c8dd2d20711201327j69ff6eccu2b43aca20d33ab84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/20/07, S?bastien wrote: > http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm > Please to share your insights/ innovations/ inventions/ safety tips/ morbid > humour etc > > The odds of accidents on the road made me think I would encourage the > construction of a high speed train from our metropolis to our capital to > diminish the car death rate, it also made me think of what Steve Mann said > about his bicycle sensor "Every morning I decide how I will see the world > that day. Sometimes I give myself eyes in the back of my head. Other days I > add a sixth sense, such as the ability to feel objects at a distance. If I'm > going to ride my bicycle, I'll want to feel the cars and trucks pressing > against my back, even when they are a few hundred feet away" ; how come > such a cool device not out there yet? > The figure that leaps out at me says that everyone should drive three-wheeled vehicles. Only 13 people died in 2004 compared with about 20,000 for other road vehicles. Sounds like great odds to me! Then the thought occurred to me that maybe there were only 13 three-wheeled vehicles and they *all* died. I think these stats need a bit of reworking. BillK From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 13:56:34 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:56:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711201655.32051.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> <200711201655.32051.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62c14240711210556l56749e38mb1b46ee36f0bbebf@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 20, 2007 5:55 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > It might be interesting if each of the actors start to invest the > megabucks into digital avatars being created for them - mostly the > audio - so that they can work on as many movies as they possibly want, > i.e. selling a "package". Of course, they would have to be doing tens > of movies at once to make it worthwhile (otherwise they could just > speak into an audio setup at home and be done with it). ...and we'll be so sick of that actor's voice that they'll completely devalue themselves in the process. I see realistic rendering of voice signature going immediately into fantasy worlds - You want to speak with Celebrity X? For only $4.99 a minute you can have a one-on-one chat with them. Of course what you're really talking to is a weak AI around a narrow topic base. I'm pretty sure there would even be a market for something as simple as Eliza if it sounded like whatever famous person the caller wanted and could "chat" using only the phone as an interface. (simple speech recognition input, voice generation output, basic Eliza engine in between) I recently had box seats for the Flyers/Rangers hockey game. We're sitting in this mega-million dollar stadium, surrounded with technology to broadcast every detail to potentially millions of viewers when I realized the absurdity of these grown men vying for control of the puck. They might have been apes literally using sticks to keep control of a prized rock. Then I realized our spectator interests were no different than viewing gladiators in the Coloseum. Despite our advancements, humanity is generally the same pack of animals it always has been. I guess that's good or bad depending on how to see it. From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 21 15:58:40 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:58:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] What do you get out of this "Odds of dying" page? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711211558.lALFwc3U004111@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... > > > > The figure that leaps out at me says that everyone should drive > three-wheeled vehicles. > > Only 13 people died in 2004 compared with about 20,000 for other road > vehicles. > Sounds like great odds to me! > > Then the thought occurred to me that maybe there were only 13 > three-wheeled vehicles and they *all* died. > > I think these stats need a bit of reworking. > > > BillK BillK, the most common three wheelers as used today are dangerous sons a bitches. We have a couple of them in my biker club. One is a sidecar rig and one is a trike. These are dangerous because they don't lean. There are some three wheelers on the market which are straddled and do lean into turns, so that is some safety improvement, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to ride one of the old kind. You get cooking into a turn too fast, you have a choice of either toppling or running into the other lane. Oy. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 21 16:04:14 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:04:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <62c14240711210556l56749e38mb1b46ee36f0bbebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711211630.lALGUom6012365@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > ... > > ...and we'll be so sick of that actor's voice that they'll completely > devalue themselves in the process. > > I see realistic rendering of voice signature going immediately into > fantasy worlds - You want to speak with Celebrity X? For only $4.99 a > minute you can have a one-on-one chat with them. ... I am my own favorite celebrity. Consider a super realistic digital voice sim of oneself. Think of all the applications: send it to work in your place, entertain the guests at your own funeral, rig it to talk to people on the phone, or real time chat on the internet, etc. Just think of the gags you could play with it, especially on older people who are not aware of the technology. The possibilities are endless. spike From jonkc at att.net Wed Nov 21 17:25:17 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:25:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Another breakthrough paper! References: <200711211558.lALFwc3U004111@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <01e801c82c63$93ebd5b0$30094e0c@MyComputer> On June 7 of this year I remarked that a scientist had found a way to get embryonic stem cells from the skin of an adult mouse. I concluded my post with "It hasn't been done with human cells yet but I'll bet it won't be long". Boy was I ever right, it only took 4 months! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071120092709.htm This could really be revolutionary, it's a cheap and easy way to get personalized embryonic steam cells, immune rejection will not be a problem, and even the Bible thumpers can't find anything to complain about. John K Clark From scerir at libero.it Wed Nov 21 16:50:59 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:50:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What do you get out of this "Odds of dying" page? References: <2c8dd2d20711201327j69ff6eccu2b43aca20d33ab84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401c82c5e$b3559ee0$6fba1f97@archimede> BillK: The figure that leaps out at me says that everyone should drive three-wheeled vehicles. # That seems the reason why Piaggio made the MP3 http://www.piaggiogroup.com/news/2006/100506_en.htm http://www.mp3.piaggio.com/index_eng.html From jcowan5 at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 21 17:35:26 2007 From: jcowan5 at sympatico.ca (Joshua Cowan) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:35:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Another breakthrough paper! In-Reply-To: <01e801c82c63$93ebd5b0$30094e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: Snip: , and even the Bible thumpers can't find anything to complain about. > > John K Clark Um, use of foreskin, playing god with people's genes, the possibility of creating chimeras. The Bible thumpers will always find something to complain about. From santostasigio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 21 17:27:39 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 09:27:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711211630.lALGUom6012365@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <53541.61955.qm@web31310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> all fine beside the funeral part.. probably most of us here don't intend to go to our funeral... also will be cool if one day one could actually be aware what the different avatars feel and experience... a multiplication of consciousness.... spike wrote: > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > ... > > ...and we'll be so sick of that actor's voice that they'll completely > devalue themselves in the process. > > I see realistic rendering of voice signature going immediately into > fantasy worlds - You want to speak with Celebrity X? For only $4.99 a > minute you can have a one-on-one chat with them. ... I am my own favorite celebrity. Consider a super realistic digital voice sim of oneself. Think of all the applications: send it to work in your place, entertain the guests at your own funeral, rig it to talk to people on the phone, or real time chat on the internet, etc. Just think of the gags you could play with it, especially on older people who are not aware of the technology. The possibilities are endless. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 18:01:54 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:01:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <53541.61955.qm@web31310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <53541.61955.qm@web31310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711211201.54702.kanzure@gmail.com> On Wednesday 21 November 2007 11:27, giovanni santost wrote: > ? also will be cool if one day one could actually be aware what the > different avatars feel and experience... a multiplication of > consciousness.... I have put thought into this issue before. Basically my conclusion is that we should not base our plans on being able to do full multifaceted experiences from different nodes (many clones, for example, or rats wired into your cyborgish net). I have, as of yet, not come up with a way to do "brain synchronization" of memories and experiences. Maybe we will one day start working on an artificial corpus collasum, and maybe there can be some minimal synchronization routines during sleep, but as far as I can tell, when you have avatars/subminds/mindbots running around, if they die, a part of you dies with them, just as if you had a stroke and lost the function of a part of your brain. Except your total brain would be much, much larger. If anybody has some thoughts on brain synchronization, I would be very interested in hearing the ideas. - Bryan From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Nov 21 18:01:55 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:01:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Another breakthrough paper! In-Reply-To: <01e801c82c63$93ebd5b0$30094e0c@MyComputer> References: <200711211558.lALFwc3U004111@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <01e801c82c63$93ebd5b0$30094e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <1195668085_20767@S3.cableone.net> At 10:25 AM 11/21/2007, John K Clark wrote: >On June 7 of this year I remarked that a scientist had found a way to get >embryonic stem cells from the skin of an adult mouse. I concluded my post >with "It hasn't been done with human cells yet but I'll bet it won't be >long". Boy was I ever right, it only took 4 months! That's a strong tendency showing up recently. Feedback from better tools and better understanding of the problems have been speeding up research. > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071120092709.htm >This could really be revolutionary, it's a cheap and easy way to get >personalized embryonic steam cells, immune rejection will not be a >problem, and even the Bible thumpers can't find anything to complain about. Don't bet on it. First time someone produces a human clone from one of those cells, what are they going to say about the casual use of millions of them to repair a heart? Murderer! Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Nov 21 17:55:11 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:55:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <62c14240711210556l56749e38mb1b46ee36f0bbebf@mail.gmail.com > References: <20071120125422.GF4005@leitl.org> <29666bf30711200945v659ffe7xb6067403ca64de24@mail.gmail.com> <200711201655.32051.kanzure@gmail.com> <62c14240711210556l56749e38mb1b46ee36f0bbebf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1195667680_20079@S1.cableone.net> At 06:56 AM 11/21/2007, Mike Dougherty wrote: snip >. . . when I realized the absurdity of these grown men vying for >control of the puck. They might have been apes literally using sticks >to keep control of a prized rock. Then I realized our spectator >interests were no different than viewing gladiators in the Coloseum. >Despite our advancements, humanity is generally the same pack of >animals it always has been. I guess that's good or bad depending on >how to see it. Either way it's exactly the way evolutionary psychology looks at the situation. Keith From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 22 03:35:39 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:35:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Another breakthrough paper! In-Reply-To: <1195668085_20767@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711220402.lAM42FG7016458@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson ... > > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071120092709.htm > >This could really be revolutionary, it's a cheap and easy way to get > >personalized embryonic steam cells, immune rejection will not be a > >problem, and even the Bible thumpers can't find anything to complain > about. > > Don't bet on it. First time someone produces a human clone from one > of those cells, what are they going to say about the casual use of > millions of them to repair a heart? Murderer! Keith Ah yes, the save-every-sperm crowd. {8^D I tend to take a more optimistic view of this conflict. The most vocal bible thumpers tend to be biblical literalists. I can assure you there is nothing in the bible that says anything about taking one's own cells and modifying them in the lab, then using them for medicinal purposes. The argument is very easy. If some vocal religionist argues this technique is against some vague ethical principle, one must ask "What ethical or religious principle?" Suggestions? If they argue these techniques defeat death, the counter arguments are so obvious they scarcely require mentioning. One example would then be to ask if their objections apply to all medicine, for instance. I expect few to go there. This has been pioneered by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, the medical experimentalist and influential christian ethicist in the 19th century. Perhaps his greatest contribution to medical ethics was a strong form of the notion that any objection to any medical procedure must have a specific citation from scripture. If for instance, he was accused of playing god, he might ask the objector to demonstrate a scripture which specifically forbids playing god (whatever that means.) spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 22 03:53:04 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:53:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195667680_20079@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711220419.lAM4Je5x000690@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > > At 06:56 AM 11/21/2007, Mike Dougherty wrote: > > >. . . when I realized the absurdity of these grown men vying for > >control of the puck. ... I guess that's good or bad depending on > >how to see it... Mike I see that as grown men vying for lucrative professional hockey contracts. Scrambling after money isn't absurd at all, but on the contrary the most natural and intuitive activity I can imagine. > > Either way it's exactly the way evolutionary psychology looks at the > situation. Keith I find Keith's approach to evolutionary psychology very encouraging; I hope it works. If that approach is correct, then war among humans can eventually be ended via good old reliable materialism. Peace thru more and better stuff. spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 22 05:45:48 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:45:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711220419.lAM4Je5x000690@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1195667680_20079@S1.cableone.net> <200711220419.lAM4Je5x000690@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> At 08:53 PM 11/21/2007, spike wrote: snip >I find Keith's approach to evolutionary psychology very encouraging; I hope >it works. If that approach is correct, then war among humans can eventually >be ended via good old reliable materialism. Peace thru more and better >stuff. It's not that simple. Given the environment that shaped our mental mechanisms, chances are we respond to future prospects. Good prospects, no war, bad ones, xenophobic war memes build up. So no matter how much stuff we have, any prospects of less stuff next year will set off the mechanisms leading to wars. Keith From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 22 06:02:16 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:02:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711220602.lAM62Cj1002714@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > > At 08:53 PM 11/21/2007, spike wrote: > > snip > > >I find Keith's approach to evolutionary psychology very encouraging; > >...Peace thru more and better stuff. > > It's not that simple... > > So no matter how much stuff we have, any prospects of less stuff next > year will set off the mechanisms leading to wars. > > Keith Ja, that is how I understood it. But unlike all other approaches to world peace I have ever seen, including pacifism, religion, MAD, etc, the notion that we could continuously produce more and better stuff indefinitely seems downright achievable. Achievable is an understatement, it is foreseeable. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 22 06:20:51 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:20:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > > At 08:53 PM 11/21/2007, spike wrote: > > snip > > >... Peace thru more and better stuff. > > It's not that simple. Given the environment that shaped our mental > mechanisms, chances are we respond to future prospects. Good > prospects, no war, bad ones, xenophobic war memes build up... Keith Keith, I have a question regarding a news story that has been making the rounds last couple days. It seems to be causing xenophobic war memes having nothing to do with future prospects. In terms of conflicts between societies and EP, how do we deal with the case of the Saudi woman who was sentenced to 100 lashes for the crime of being raped? Then when she appealed the absurd sentence, they doubled it to 200? http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.lawyer/index.html On a weird tangent, I wondered this evening how they administer such a sentence to a woman in those psychotically uptight middle eastern countries. Do they apply the lashes with the woman fully clothed? Or do they have female whip wielders? If the latter, how did the woman become a whip wielder to start with? Are all the witnesses to the sentence female? If so, would not they realize the injustice in the sentence, and simply have the prisoner scream in feigned agony while they schwacked the floor? How could any male person verify the sentence had been carried out without violating the same psychopathic principles that brought about the sentence? What if a person is born ambiguously gendered in those societies? Do they get some rights to go outside sometimes? Can such a person give permission for a female relative to go outside? If two ambiguously gendered persons live together there, can they give each other half permission to go out, or do they need to accompany each other? So complicated is this. spike From eugen at leitl.org Thu Nov 22 08:12:55 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:12:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071122081255.GB4005@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 10:20:51PM -0800, spike wrote: > On a weird tangent, I wondered this evening how they administer such a > sentence to a woman in those psychotically uptight middle eastern countries. We don't have to finance them, you know. For the cost of one war (what? a mere 20-30 k$/family?) the US could easily become energy-independent. > Do they apply the lashes with the woman fully clothed? Or do they have Um, no. http://thepeacetrain.org/images/post/misc/071120raped_woman_lashing.jpg That one went off easy, you could as easily cut through subcutaneous fat and even to the bone. Lashings were frequently fatal, and a form of execution. > female whip wielders? If the latter, how did the woman become a whip > wielder to start with? Are all the witnesses to the sentence female? If > so, would not they realize the injustice in the sentence, and simply have > the prisoner scream in feigned agony while they schwacked the floor? How > could any male person verify the sentence had been carried out without > violating the same psychopathic principles that brought about the sentence? > What if a person is born ambiguously gendered in those societies? Do they > get some rights to go outside sometimes? Can such a person give permission > for a female relative to go outside? If two ambiguously gendered persons > live together there, can they give each other half permission to go out, or > do they need to accompany each other? > > So complicated is this. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 09:19:26 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:19:26 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 22/11/2007, spike wrote: > What if a person is born ambiguously gendered in those societies? Do they > get some rights to go outside sometimes? Can such a person give permission > for a female relative to go outside? If two ambiguously gendered persons > live together there, can they give each other half permission to go out, or > do they need to accompany each other? > > So complicated is this. It is complicated. See the following article about transgendered people in Iran: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4115535.stm quote--- He shows me the book in Arabic in which, 41 years ago, Ayatollah Khomeini wrote about new medical issues like transsexuality. "I believe he was the first Islamic scientist in the world of Islam who raised the issue of sex change," says Hojatulislam Kariminia. The Ayatollah's ruling that sex-change operations were allowed has been reconfirmed by Iran's current spiritual leader. That has meant that clerics like Hojatulislam Kariminia can study transsexuality - unlike homosexuality which is completely forbidden in Islam and illegal in Iran. "I want to suggest that the right of transsexuals to change their gender is a human right," says the cleric, who is so fascinated by the subject that he says he dreams about the transsexuals he has studied at night. "I am trying to introduce transsexuals to the people through my work and in fact remove the stigma or the insults that sometimes attach to these people," says Hojatulislam Kariminia. ---endquote Doesn't excuse the Ayatolla's other faults, of course, but it just goes to show that you shouldn't make assumptions about a demonised enemy. -- Stathis Papaioannou From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 22 13:04:51 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:04:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf EP In-Reply-To: <200711220602.lAM62Cj1002714@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220602.lAM62Cj1002714@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1195736661_1046@S3.cableone.net> At 11:02 PM 11/21/2007, spike wrote: > > So no matter how much stuff we have, any prospects of less stuff next > > year will set off the mechanisms leading to wars. > > > > Keith > >Ja, that is how I understood it. But unlike all other approaches to world >peace I have ever seen, including pacifism, religion, MAD, etc, the notion >that we could continuously produce more and better stuff indefinitely seems >downright achievable. Achievable is an understatement, it is foreseeable. Maybe. Just more stuff won't do it if the population is going up faster than the wealth since the trip is dependent on average population outlook. Short term we are in for a rough time because of the carbon and energy crisis. From an engineering perspective there are ways or at least a way to solve the problems. Effectively we eat energy. I could see the population dropping by 2-4 billion over a couple of decades if they are not solved. But a lot of the world is already in "bleak prospects" -> xenophobia -> war or related social responses such as terrorism. The problem with our stone-age evolved psychological mechanisms is that they adversely affect our ability to think rationally when turned on. Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 22 13:32:41 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:32:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 14:51:12 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:51:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <580930c20711220651m151c184l86955e8f0ed64705@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 22, 2007 2:32 PM, hkhenson wrote: > Ten politically incorrect truths about human nature > Deekonda Ramesh, 20 November 2007, Tuesday > > 2. Humans are naturally polygamous > The history of western civilization aside, humans are naturally polygamous. > Polyandry (a marriage of one woman to many men) is very rare, but polygamy > (the marriage of one man to many women) is widely practised in human > societies, even though Judeo-Christian traditions hold that monogamy is the > only natural form of marriage. This is not strictly true. The Jewish matrimonial regime used to be polygamous in biblical times. and some forms of semi-official poligamy *and* poliandry were not entirely unknown in different christian countries of the old world, even though never really in Northern America, where the emphasis on reciprocal sexual exclusivity has always be, as far as I can tell, rather strong, at least in the mainstream. Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 22 15:39:42 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:39:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ThanksGiving Cheer Message-ID: <20071122153944.SCHB28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Friends, Thank you for your contributions, no matter how large or how small. Your positive efforts in continuing to build transhumanism is a gift to us all. Thank you! ______________________________________________________________ Now for some fun: * History of Thanksgiving: http://www.history.com/minisites/thanksgiving/ * Ben Franklin's "Politically Incorrect Thanksgiving": http://randomresponses.blogspot.com/2005/11/ben-franklin-on-first-thanksgiving.html * My favorite: http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/135713/Home-for-the-Holidays/overview Wishing everyone in North America and elsewhere a festive ThanksGiving, Natasha I can no other answer make, but, thanks, and thanks. -- William Shakespeare Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful. -- Buddha No one who achieves success does so without the help of others. The wise and confident acknowledge this help with gratitude. -- Alfred North Whitehead -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Thu Nov 22 15:40:27 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:40:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Muslims didn't invent the concept of kamikaze missions. It seems to be a fairly common component of warefare: - The Knights Templar destroyed one of their own ships to kill Muslims.. - African American soldiers conducted a suicide mission, as shown in the non-fiction film "Glory". - Japanese kamikaze pilots attacking navy aircraft carriers. - Japanize navy used manned suicide midget torpedos. - The German Luftwaffe flew suicide missions against soviet bridges. - The Viet Minh used suicide explosive missions against French tanks. - The Japanese JRA terrorist group conducted a suicide mission against an Israeli airport. - The Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka accounted for more than half of all suicide bombings between 1980 and 2000. - The IRA used to force people to go on suicide missions against their will. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI GSEC IAM ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From brent.allsop at comcast.net Thu Nov 22 16:06:46 2007 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:06:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ThanksGiving Cheer In-Reply-To: <20071122153944.SCHB28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <20071122153944.SCHB28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4745A916.50009@comcast.net> Here Here! Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Friends, > > Thank you for your contributions, no matter how large or how small. > Your positive efforts in continuing to build transhumanism is a gift > to us all. Thank you! > > ______________________________________________________________ > > Now for some fun: > > * History of Thanksgiving: > http://www.history.com/minisites/thanksgiving/ > * Ben Franklin's "Politically Incorrect Thanksgiving": > http://randomresponses.blogspot.com/2005/11/ben-franklin-on-first-thanksgiving.html > > * My favorite: > http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/135713/Home-for-the-Holidays/overview > > > > Wishing everyone in North America and elsewhere a festive ThanksGiving, > > Natasha > > I can no other answer make, but, thanks, and thanks. > -- William Shakespeare > > Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at > least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least > we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, > let us all be thankful. > -- Buddha > > No one who achieves success does so without the help of others. The > wise and confident acknowledge this help with gratitude. > -- Alfred North Whitehead > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 22 17:47:01 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:47:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711221747.lAMHlTHV013649@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou > Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf > > On 22/11/2007, spike wrote: > > > What if a person is born ambiguously gendered in those societies? ... > > So complicated is this. > > It is complicated. See the following article about transgendered people in > Iran: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4115535.stm > ...41 years ago, Ayatollah > Khomeini wrote about new medical issues like transsexuality... >... Doesn't excuse the Ayatolla's other faults, of course, but it just > goes to show that you shouldn't make assumptions about a demonised > enemy... Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, the article you cited (if it is cited on the internet, perhaps the verb is sited) partially anticipates a question: at what point in the gender reassignment surgery does the patient lose her driver's license? >From the article: "...Surgeons have already removed Mahyar's testicles. After the operation, her older brother locked her up for a week and wouldn't let her use the telephone..." What if the patient is reassigned from female to male? At what point does he become eligible to drive? What if the patient retains both the breasts and a penis? Is the requirement to drive based on having the latter or not having the former? Is the Saudi Arabian DMV worried than breasts interfere with the proper operation of the steering wheel? Or do they propose that the penis is actually used in guiding the vehicle? How? Mahyar's brother locked her up and wouldn't allow her to use the telephone after her testicles were removed. Are we to assume that Mahyar's brother uses his testicles to dial the phone? Sounds painful. spike From jonkc at att.net Thu Nov 22 18:17:17 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:17:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Live long and be happy, take a pill References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net><200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com><1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> It's been found that a human antidepressant, Mianserin, extends the life of worms by 30%; it seems to work by mimicking the effects of caloric restriction. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071121144946.htm John K Clark From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 19:08:20 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:08:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Live long and be happy, take a pill In-Reply-To: <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <200711221308.20751.kanzure@gmail.com> Can anybody find a paper on how to synthesize Mianserin? - Bryan From moulton at moulton.com Thu Nov 22 20:19:01 2007 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:19:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Kalima project to translate select books into Arabic Message-ID: <1195762741.19446.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> I thought perhaps some might be interested in a website I recently happened to find. It is the website for the Kalima project which is a project to translate books into Arabic. My understanding is that although some books are already translated into Arabic they want to improve the range and quality. Six books have already been translated and there is a list of proposed future books: http://www.kalima.ae/eng/titles/to-be-translated.php I noticed in the list of titles proposed for translation: Engines of Creation by Drexler The Age of Spiritual Machines by Kurzweil and other familiar titles. The project looks interesting although I have noticed a couple of typos on the website. I do not know much about the history of the project other than what is on the website. There is some commentary of varying quality at: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/11/found_in_translation.html or tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/2plom7 Fred From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 00:38:01 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:38:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Live long and be happy, take a pill In-Reply-To: <200711221308.20751.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> <200711221308.20751.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/22/07, Bryan Bishop wrote: > > Can anybody find a paper on how to synthesize Mianserin? > It seems to be all explained in PubMed. Synthesis here: It seems to have toxicity and other side-effects in humans that do not occur in worms. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 01:00:11 2007 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:00:11 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Live long and be happy, take a pill In-Reply-To: <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 23/11/2007, John K Clark wrote: > It's been found that a human antidepressant, Mianserin, extends the life of > worms by 30%; it seems to work by mimicking the effects of caloric > restriction. > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071121144946.htm Mianserin (now rarely used) along with some other antidepressants and antipsychotics cause increased appetite and weight gain in human patients. This is presumed to lead to a decreased lifespan, although I don't know that this has ever been specifically studied with mianserin for humans. Perhaps if mianserin were to increase lifespan you would have to resist the desire to eat, so that you felt as if you were starving. Does the original Nature paper say if the worms were allowed to eat as much as they wanted? The SSRI's such as fluoxetine generally have little effect on or decrease appetite. -- Stathis Papaioannou From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Nov 23 02:52:36 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:52:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ThanksGiving Cheer References: <20071122153944.SCHB28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <016501c82d7b$f90cc490$0400a8c0@Nano> A wonderful sentiment Natasha, we couldn't have done it without you, and that is the literal truth. It is I, among others who are eternally grateful for your work and your gracious presence. We thank you, G` Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/ Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/ Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Natasha Vita-More To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org ; ART-tac at yahoogroups.com ; wta-talk at transhumanism.org ; Hplus2 at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:39 AM Subject: [ExI] ThanksGiving Cheer Friends, Thank you for your contributions, no matter how large or how small. Your positive efforts in continuing to build transhumanism is a gift to us all. Thank you! ______________________________________________________________ Now for some fun: a.. History of Thanksgiving: http://www.history.com/minisites/thanksgiving/ b.. Ben Franklin's "Politically Incorrect Thanksgiving": http://randomresponses.blogspot.com/2005/11/ben-franklin-on-first-thanksgiving.html c.. My favorite: http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/135713/Home-for-the-Holidays/overview Wishing everyone in North America and elsewhere a festive ThanksGiving, Natasha I can no other answer make, but, thanks, and thanks. -- William Shakespeare Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful. -- Buddha No one who achieves success does so without the help of others. The wise and confident acknowledge this help with gratitude. -- Alfred North Whitehead ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Nov 23 06:23:55 2007 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 22:23:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> On Nov 21, 2007, at 10:20 PM, spike wrote: >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Beowulf >> >> At 08:53 PM 11/21/2007, spike wrote: >> >> snip >> >>> ... Peace thru more and better stuff. >> >> It's not that simple. Given the environment that shaped our mental >> mechanisms, chances are we respond to future prospects. Good >> prospects, no war, bad ones, xenophobic war memes build up... Keith > > > > Keith, I have a question regarding a news story that has been making > the > rounds last couple days. It seems to be causing xenophobic war > memes having > nothing to do with future prospects. In terms of conflicts between > societies and EP, how do we deal with the case of the Saudi woman > who was > sentenced to 100 lashes for the crime of being raped? Then when she > appealed the absurd sentence, they doubled it to 200? Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. > - samantha From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 21:07:20 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:07:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Live long and be happy, take a pill In-Reply-To: References: <1195710318_14625@S3.cableone.net> <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <1195738333_1542@S3.cableone.net> <200711221040.28086.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <012501c82d33$f533e4e0$46044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <580930c20711231307k2a8315bfq8b19accafbe1aad8@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 23, 2007 2:00 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Perhaps if mianserin were to increase lifespan you would > have to resist the desire to eat, so that you felt as if you were > starving. > I remember a funny quote by Atkins. He said: "I am not sure whether caloric restriction will make you live 100 years, but for sure you will feel as if it were even more...". :-) Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 21:19:51 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:19:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> References: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711231319t61a1144ei472081bdbf333ac2@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 23, 2007 7:23 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do > we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by > strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look > forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. Clap, clap. Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 22:41:04 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:41:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] China condemns high-tech outsourcing Message-ID: <580930c20711231441h592a4d0dtfa2e850ccf2631b2@mail.gmail.com> China condemns high-tech outsourcingBy the Chinese space programmeBy Lewis Page ? More by this author Published Friday 23rd November 2007 15:28 GMT The People's Republic of China will replace all its imported communications and broadcast satellites with Chinese-made ones by 2010, according to the chief of the country's National Space Administration. AFP reports that Sun Laiyan - PRC space chief - laid out the strategy in the government-controlled *Beijing News*. It seems that China currently has 12 comms/broadcast spacecraft operating, but only one was manufactured in the People's Republic. "The rest were all bought from foreign companies," said Sun. He also said the Chinese space agency would complete plans and studies within three years for Moon landings and a joint probe to Mars in cooperation with Russia in 2009. The PRC put a probe into lunar orbit last month, intended to map the entire surface of the Moon. Sun's agency has previously said it will deliver a robot lander to the Moon by 2012 and an astronaut by 2020. Meanwhile, other Chinese officials outlined plans to build a new generation of heavy lift rockets, which would realise the PRC's ambitious space programme. "The technological issues of the next generation of carrier rockets have basically been solved," saidZhang Yanhe of the Commission of Science Technology and Industry for National Defence. Yanhe's defence-sector colleagues have been working hard on rocketry in recent years in order to update the country's long range missile forces, which are feeble in comparison to those of the other major world powers. Zhang said the new kit would "satisfy China's demands for technological development and the peaceful use of space for the next 30 to 50 years". The AFP report is here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Nov 24 04:16:40 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:16:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> References: <200711220647.lAM6lQHf011769@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> Message-ID: <1195877772_22561@S4.cableone.net> At 11:23 PM 11/22/2007, samantha wrote: >On Nov 21, 2007, at 10:20 PM, spike wrote: snip > > Keith, I have a question regarding a news story that has been making > > the > > rounds last couple days. It seems to be causing xenophobic war > > memes having > > nothing to do with future prospects. In terms of conflicts between > > societies and EP, how do we deal with the case of the Saudi woman > > who was > > sentenced to 100 lashes for the crime of being raped? Then when she > > appealed the absurd sentence, they doubled it to 200? > >Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do >we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by >strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look >forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. There are evolutionary psychology reasons to enforce homogenous norms world wide to *avoid* "unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects." Cultures (of which the Arabic culture is one) that degrade women have high population growth. Exactly why high population growth is coupled to treating women badly is up for argument. Assuming a causal relation (which may or may not be true), I have argued that population growth in excess of economic growth is at the root of wars and related social disruption such as terrorism. And we do have the example of the IRA running out of support when the effects of a large reduction in the number of children worked its way through the Irish population demographics. Now I don't have the least idea of what influence could be used to change Arabic culture in the desirable direction of a lower birth rate except that better treatment of women seems to be associated with lower birthrates. Irish culture is a lot more accessible and I have no idea of what happened there either, or in the rest of Europe before that. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Keith From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 24 06:03:48 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:03:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> Message-ID: <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins ... > > ... Saudi woman who was > > sentenced to 100 lashes for the crime of being raped? Then when she > > appealed the absurd sentence, they doubled it to 200? > > Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do > we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by > strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look > forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. > > > > > - samantha Ja, I see your concern but of course evil triumphs when good people do you know what. http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSL2362541420071123 Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we are good people. Al qaeda is evil. spike From scerir at libero.it Sat Nov 24 07:52:18 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:52:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] the universe as a kettle References: <200711221747.lAMHlTHV013649@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <000401c82e6e$f750ff60$3db91f97@archimede> L. Krauss on 'a watched kettle never boils' but measuring (exotic) stuff might [?] reduce the life expectancy [?] of our universe. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/11/21/scicosmos1 21.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.1821v1.pdf In general, about the Zeno and the Anti-Zeno effects, see http://www.ececs.uc.edu/~harthnb/Quantum/Library/zeno%20illustration%20v7.do c. From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 11:26:10 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:26:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 'Homogenous Norms' - Impossible? or the West's only hope? Message-ID: On 11/24/07, hkhenson wrote: > At 11:23 PM 11/22/2007, samantha wrote: > >Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do > >we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by > >strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look > >forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. > > There are evolutionary psychology reasons to enforce homogenous norms > world wide to *avoid* "unending war, much terrorism and depleted > economic prospects." Cultures (of which the Arabic culture is one) > that degrade women have high population growth. Exactly why high > population growth is coupled to treating women badly is up for argument. > I've just read an article on the War on Terror that makes some unusual points. Worth thinking about. Mark Anderson is a frequent speaker at corporate meetings around the world, and provides top-level strategic reviews for management teams. The Pakistan Play 21 November 2007 Let's see if I have this right. Every country in the Middle East (except Israel) is a dictatorship, specifically focused on preventing radical Islam from coming to power. You can argue exceptions like Turkey, where the Army comes in and stages coups at the slightest indication of the above, or Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Sadat, and the Mubarek dynasty kills or jails this now-illegal Islamic group on sight. And we want democracy for Pakistan? Oh, I forgot to add Algeria, where the Islamic party was made illegal and the elections stopped in mid-stroke to avoid a power turnover, or Morocco, or ? Who in the world would want to impose democracy on a Middle Eastern country? Oh, I forgot - we did the same thing in Iran, forcing the Shah to lighten up a bit. Oops. OK, maybe it's all about our other big issue, Nukes. Except the greatest crime of the modern world was putting together all the materials necessary for a nuclear weapons kit and shipping it off to fellow Islamic (and other) countries, like Iran, Libya, Syria, and probably North Korea ? Who was the master criminal behind that most destructive and insane of Islamic moves? Ah, I believe that would be dictator and future President Purvez Musharraf. Sure, he has Dr. Khan under "house arrest" (or used to), but really, he was in charge of the government at the time this sanctioned distribution of death kits took place. The "Islamic Bomb." Oops. Don't you get the feeling that the whole Pakistan story is one gigantic manipulation? What is the other hand doing, while you are watching this one? Pakistan, Home of Al Quaeda. Where Mr. bin Laden gets his dialysis. Bush's staunchest ally in the War on Terror. Did I mention that there is no War on Terror? ---------------------- Hmmmmm. BillK From extropy at unreasonable.com Sat Nov 24 13:23:45 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:23:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> Spike wrote: >Ja, I see your concern but of course evil triumphs when good people do you >know what. > >http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSL2362541420071123 > >Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All >cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we >are good people. Al qaeda is evil. I've brought this all up before, but it bears repeating -- To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them to one involving two or three people. If I saw someone being murdered, I would not say, "That's a private matter between them." As both a legal and an ethical matter, I may use force in defense of others. I can legally and ethically assist them if they ask for help or if a "reasonable man" would conclude that their defense was warranted (e.g., they are prevented from requesting assistance or they are incapable of informed consent to the violence). Where libertarians and non-libertarians part company is when the violence is consensual but "shocks the conscience" or is inherently harmful to society. Also, as discussed recently on another list, a libertarian may initiate force, e.g., steal a ladder to rescue someone from a burning house, but they do so knowing there may be a price to pay and prepared to pay it. A non-libertarian will use that force, with no apologies. I can certainly stop Samantha from bludgeoning Spike. I can persuade Natasha to help me. I suppose I can force Harvey at gunpoint to drive the speedboat across the harbor to get to S and S, if I pay the price. Stopping women from being killed to redeem the family shame of their getting raped is a good thing. Stopping men from being put into wood chippers in front of their children is a good thing. The challenge for extropians is to think of clever ways to free the world (and to end the enslavement or subjugation of women, which is a good metric for freedom) that are cheap (in dollars and lives), non-governmental, and/or non-violent. I like micro-loans directly to women in the Congo to start up small businesses. I like assassination of despots. I like dropping laptops (without permission) into villages in North Korea and Chad. I like golden rice. -- David. From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Nov 24 15:43:04 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:43:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? Message-ID: This TED video illustrates a difficulty at the core of much futurist discussion. The subject is not new, but it might as well be, for the resounding lack of progress acquiring an intuitive grasp of reasoning about uncertainty. Many will watch this video -- it's from TED and therefore expected to be high quality. But how many will make the effort to integrate its very simple, profound principle into your daily thinking? It's very simple, but not necessarily easy. How many of you will shake your head, "rationalize" that it's just a little too abstract, and go on arguing with passion and great certainty despite an obvious disqualification? Yes, I'm being quite tactless. This is important, people! - Jef From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Nov 24 18:22:37 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <1195928529_11719@S3.cableone.net> At 11:03 PM 11/23/2007, spike wrote: > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins snip > > Awful as that is why is it our business to deal with such at all? Do > > we believe that homogenous norms should be enforced worldwide by > > strength of arms were other means fail? If so then we can look > > forward to unending war, much terrorism and depleted economic prospects. > > > > > > > > > - samantha > >Ja, I see your concern but of course evil triumphs when good people do you >know what. > >http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSL2362541420071123 > >Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All >cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we >are good people. Al qaeda is evil. An EP view of such awful actions has no room for "evil" any more than lions keeping down the population of zebras is evil. Human have no predators except other humans. So when a population perceives a bleak future, the warriors get hyped up by circulating xenophobic memes to kill anyone who is not in their group. In the stone age, killing a bunch of neighbors was a sure method to increase the food supply per capita. The rise of Al Qaeda is as mechanistic as pulling your hand back from a hot stove. The positive point is that EP allows you to figure out what it will take to stop such activities. Unfortunately it takes a generation or more and it is not obvious that the culture can be changed enough to reduce population growth below economic growth. In the short term you have to expect an awful lot of people to die. Unless, of course, you want to try something totally mad. Such as swapping out most of the population of Iraq with Texans. Keith From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 00:08:16 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:08:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving cheer (Natasha's post) In-Reply-To: <580930c20711231319t61a1144ei472081bdbf333ac2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <222275.3315.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The thoughtful article about the dark genocidal history behind Thanksgiving Day reminded me of the very public Columbus Day controversy. The other downside to the T-day holiday is the potential for loneliness if your friends and family are far away or simply all dead. Natasha's warm Thanksgiving Day greeting reminded me how we really do need each other and that is at the heart of the holiday now. I wish the Extropian Institute was still up and running but at least we have this very special mailing list and so the spirit of ExI will never die. Best wishes, John Grigg --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 20:36:08 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:36:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] beowolf Message-ID: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i think somewhere along the way we forgot to change the subject line! Lol keith's comments made me wonder how an ancient roman emperor would deal with iraq and the surrounding areas if he were at the helm of u.s. Might and had unlimited power to wield it. Regarding the film "beowolf," i thought neal gaiman helped to write a terrific story but the motion capture tech in terms of the young female faces (esp. Jolie) looked "plastic" and sometimes just plain awful. The technology still needs much improvement. John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Nov 24 21:09:19 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:09:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> At 06:23 AM 11/24/2007, David wrote: >Spike wrote: snip > >Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All > >cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we > >are good people. Al qaeda is evil. > >I've brought this all up before, but it bears repeating -- > >To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them >to one involving two or three people. That's not entirely legit. Very small numbers of people invoke different mental modules than larger ones. See "The Nurture Assumption" for a discussion of relations vs groups. snip >The challenge for extropians is to think of clever ways to free the >world (and to end the enslavement or subjugation of women, which is a >good metric for freedom) that are cheap (in dollars and lives), >non-governmental, and/or non-violent. Agreed. The first step is to understand the problems. That takes biology, evolution and especially evolutionary psychology if you are going to make progress on your list. >I like micro-loans directly to women in the Congo to start up small >businesses. I like assassination of despots. I like dropping laptops >(without permission) into villages in North Korea and Chad. I like >golden rice. How about analyzing these in EP terms? Keith From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Nov 24 21:18:41 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:18:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Thanksgiving cheer (Natasha's post) In-Reply-To: <222275.3315.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <580930c20711231319t61a1144ei472081bdbf333ac2@mail.gmail.com> <222275.3315.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/07, John wrote: > ... and so the spirit of ExI will never die. To the extent the spirit of ExI reflects principles of extropy -- full agreement. Question remains, who enjoys the ride? - Jef From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 25 02:52:13 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:52:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bad news for damien In-Reply-To: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> Message-ID: <200711250318.lAP3Iw8j021102@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Damien, it appears the New York Times has placed your homeland, the entire continent of Australia, in Asia: SYDNEY, Australia, Nov. 24 - Australia's prime minister, John Howard, one of President Bush's staunchest allies in Asia, suffered a comprehensive defeat at the hands of the electorate on Saturday, as his Liberal Party-led coalition lost its majority in Parliament... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/world/asia/25australia.html?ex=1353646800& en=44ffd7ec5199d63c&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 25 03:33:14 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:33:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] bad news for damien In-Reply-To: <200711250318.lAP3Iw8j021102@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711250318.lAP3Iw8j021102@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071124212824.022ae0f0@satx.rr.com> At 06:52 PM 11/24/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Damien, it appears the New York Times has placed your homeland, the entire >continent of Australia, in Asia: > >SYDNEY, Australia, Nov. 24 - Australia's prime minister, John Howard, one of >President Bush's staunchest allies in Asia No, maybe Howard himself has vanished into Asia following not only the destruction of his odious government but the electoral loss (it seems) of his own seat in Parliament--that is, he hasn't even been reelected. So he's doubtless retreated to Bali for the surfing, or maybe Tibet to meditate on his karma. Damien Broderick From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Nov 25 07:42:37 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:42:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com><200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <028601c82f36$dbffc110$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> David wrote > If I saw someone being murdered, I would not say, "That's a private > matter between them." I would hope that you would hate such a murderer as much as he hates you. You'll certainly get moral support from me, and for what you have said here. As to when we should mind our own business and when we must act on the behalf of others, I submit that there aren't very many useful principles, unfortunately. The line between harmful meddling and failure to act against malevolence is not finitely characterizable. > I can certainly stop Samantha from bludgeoning Spike. But what about the rest of us? We actually need it a lot more than he does, given what some of us are prone to say. > The challenge for extropians is to think of clever ways to free the > world (and to end the enslavement or subjugation of women, which is a > good metric for freedom) that are cheap (in dollars and lives), > non-governmental, and/or non-violent. Yes, there does seem to be some usefulness in the concept of tribal boundaries, e.g. national ones. And I would hope that you would not limit yourself to being cheap and non-violent in the suppression of domestic evil, where such wrongdoing is in violation of the law, which is an important part of our civilization. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Nov 25 07:26:30 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:26:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> John writes >i think somewhere along the way we forgot > to change the subject line! Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject line. It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more important things to think about and to work on than futzing with such details." As Keith has remarked, so much we do is really about status. Spike wrote > > Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All > > cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we > > are good people. Al qaeda is evil. and Keith replied > An EP view of such awful actions has no room for "evil" any more than > lions keeping down the population of zebras is evil. which is a sentence in "truth mode". An interesting question to me has always been "how effective in changing the world can one be by remaining purely in truth mode?". Of parallel interest: Do enemies gain an advantage when you refrain from hating them but they freely indulge in hating you? Is there any place for hate in Extropianism? Lee P.S. My own tentative answer to the first question is, "A person---or his or her civilization---maximizes effectiveness by alternating between truth-mode and partisan-mode", where the latter gives full vent to hatred of evil. My answer to the second question is this: "To remain analytical towards criminals and towards wrongdoing is itself criminal and wrong", (even though western civilzation in its descent to selfdestruction often, sadly, deems this attitude self-righteous and atavistic.) From extropy at unreasonable.com Sun Nov 25 12:33:50 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:33:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness Message-ID: <200711251233.lAPCXkj64990@unreasonable.com> Lee wrote: >As to when we should mind our own business and when we >must act on the behalf of others, I submit that there aren't very >many useful principles, unfortunately. The line between harmful >meddling and failure to act against malevolence is not finitely >characterizable. How is this any different than anything in law? There are always uncertainties, to be weighed by a wise and sober judge of high reputation in PPL anarchotopia. Or by me, in my own wise and sober decision-making. I wrote: >I can certainly stop Samantha from bludgeoning Spike. Lee replied: >But what about the rest of us? We actually need it a lot more >than he does, given what some of us are prone to say. Hey, I'm not unboundedly moral, compassionate, and reckless. But I can be bribed. I wrote: >The challenge for extropians is to think of clever ways to free the >world (and to end the enslavement or subjugation of women, which is >a good metric for freedom) that are cheap (in dollars and lives), >non-governmental, and/or non-violent. Lee replied: >Yes, there does seem to be some usefulness in the concept of >tribal boundaries, e.g. national ones. Where do you read this in what I wrote? >And I would hope that you would not limit yourself to being cheap >and non-violent in the suppression of domestic evil, where such >wrongdoing is in >violation of the law, which is an important part of our civilization. I care about myself and my loved ones. Once I look beyond us, I don't draw many distinctions. I don't generally have a set of concentric rings, reducing in concern as my gaze goes outward. A domestic or local evil may demand greater attention because I perceive it to impact me or my loved ones. Beyond that, evil is a concern based on degree of severity of evil, not geographic distance or the political entity in which it occurs. >And I would hope that you would not limit yourself to being cheap >and non-violent Note the term "and/or". -- David. From extropy at unreasonable.com Sun Nov 25 12:14:01 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:14:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com> Lee wrote: >Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject >line. Subject line is a subtle matter. *I* read just about everything, but I know plenty of odd people who discriminate. They have a life outside mailing lists and choose to skip threads. If I retain the subject line, even though the topic has changed, I retain the readership that had been following the previous topic(s). I lose those who would have been interested but have abandoned the thread or skipped it altogether. I used to always change the subject line, for truth in advertising. I still do, much of the time, but I've found that a typical posting of mine is more likely to generate a reply if it is in a pre-existing thread. That could be read as about my reputation, but I think it's just a facet of established marketing and meme principles. In the best of all possible worlds, I would have an intelligent agent that mined the list and the outer web, built a predictive model of each list member, and tuned my posting so that each reader saw a personal version that optimized the likelihood that they'd read and reply to to it, much as Amazon does. >It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more important things to >think about and to work on than futzing >with such details." *I* don't understand those who don't spent the time to clean and trim when replying. A *lot* of people (speaking not of here per se; I'm on over 100 lists) who ought to know better have reply habits that, at best, come off as gauche. More as "I am too busy, and have far more important things to think about and to work on than all of you put together." -- David. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 13:53:36 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:53:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <580930c20711250553t293f14bcp56400d8b8c611e53@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2007 8:26 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Spike wrote > > > Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? All > > > cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because we > > > are good people. Al qaeda is evil. Wow, indeed a relativistic position... :-))) Just read from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/25/zubrin_energy_terror_alcohol_plan/, enjoy: "In his time off from designing spacecraft, Zubrin has written many books and articles promoting space exploration and industries. He also wrote a satire on the Israeli/Palestinian/Arab problem of the Middle East, called The Holy Land. In Zubrin's nominally sci-fi setting, an interstellar Western Galactic Empire decides to resettle a group of aliens in their long-lost homeland, which is in fact on Earth, in America. The US government attempts to wipe out the Minervans by force, but is defeated. Frustrated, Washington deliberately mistreats the American refugees displaced by the Minervans, forcing them to live in camps near the Minervan enclave as a propaganda opportunity. Then the President sponsors deniable terrorist attacks on both the Minervan aliens and the offworld Western Galactic Empire. The American terror campaign is funded largely by offworld revenue from an advanced energy source - much prized by the aliens - which has been discovered elsewhere in the States. (Geddit?)" Stefano Vaj From kanzure at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 14:28:19 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:28:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com> On Sunday 25 November 2007, David Lubkin wrote: > In the best of all possible worlds, I would have an intelligent agent > that mined the list and the outer web, built a predictive model of > each list member, and tuned my posting so that each reader saw a > personal version that optimized the likelihood that they'd read and > reply to to it, much as Amazon does. What sort of data would we have to mine in order to make this possible? I suspect that the preliminary data would be what eacher reader tends to "read then quit", what ve replies to, etc. Maybe brain scanning, but I think we can do better than that with less equipment and certainly less algorithms. - Bryan From alito at organicrobot.com Sun Nov 25 14:35:41 2007 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:35:41 +1100 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1196001341.25580.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 07:43 -0800, Jef Allbright wrote: > This TED video illustrates a difficulty at the core of much futurist discussion. > > The subject is not new, but it might as well be, for the resounding > lack of progress acquiring an intuitive grasp of reasoning about > uncertainty. > [snip] > Thanks Jef for that link. While the message is about the general suckiness of humanity in understanding probability, I was struck by the specifics of the result of the first example too much to pay much attention to the rest of the video (which was more familiar to me). For those of you who couldn't be bothered watching the video, the question in the first example is: If you are tossing coins, does it take a) longer, b) same or c) shorter on average to get the sequence HTT or HTH, in which the obvious answer b) same is wrong. (If this scenario is overly familiar to you, I recommend pressing delete/next and skipping the rest of the n00b-talk that follows, or maybe skip to the last paragraph and send some pointers) === spoiler space follows === === that was your last chance === so HTT takes 8 tosses on average while HTH takes 10. I was surprised enough to not believe it until I did some simulations, and then surprised that I hadn't heard of this before (not because I know anything about probability, but because it seems exactly like the smart-arse result that people around me would know). The example is a bit more complicated than needed. It works just as well with HH vs HT (6 vs 4) but he probably does not use it to avoid people calculating it quickly or giving the right answer because they are "too" ignorant of probability (by thinking that HH is less likely in general because it contains the same result twice in a row and getting the right result by the wrong reasoning). This result probably maximises shock value. Thinking about trying to exploit my equals with this newfound information through the traditional 'do you wanna bet' method led me to thinking of mechanisms of establishing the bet. A simple format seemed to be be what I call the 'bingo' mechanism where I get HT, you get HH, we start flipping a coin and if I fill my string before you, I get X dollars, and viceversa, and we start again. This has the subtle (to me) side-effect of destroying the advantage since the advantage of HT over HH, if I understand this at all, is that failing on your second guess takes you back to having fulfilled the first, but in 'bingo', failing on your second gives the game to the opposition. This kills it in the case of HTH vs HTT for the same reasons, but there are others eg HTH (10) vs TTT (14) seems somewhat intuitive but HTT (8.66) vs TTH (26) seems disproportionately large difference (yes, I can see that the TT sequence is ending for the first vs starting for the second, but a 3:1 ratio still seems too large) The main point of this email is in sharing my amazement at this result, but also to ask if there was any intuitive way to see them. To me, most times I set up a run, I might know which should win but the margins seem unpredictable. What is the simple formula which gives the result for any sequence pair (or triple, I haven't tested those but I'm sure they would be whacky too). (Hideous, hacky, uncommented python script follows for those who want to replicate the results or play along with minimum of effort. Python required. www.python.org. To play non-bingo version, remove lines 31 and 36. Modify sa and sb to change the challengers) #!/usr/bin/python import os, sys import random def tosser(): while True: yield random.choice(['H', 'T']) ta = 0 tb = 0 sa = 'HTT' sb = 'TTH' ga = '' gb = '' samples = 1000000 for index, face in enumerate(tosser()): if index > samples: break if (index % 10000) == 0: print index ga += face gb += face if ga[-len(sa):] == sa: ta += 1 ga = '' gb = '' if gb[-len(sb):] == sb: tb += 1 gb = '' ga = '' print "Total for %s: %d\tAverage: %f" % (sa, ta, float(samples)/ta) print "Total for %s: %d\tAverage: %f" % (sb, tb, float(samples)/tb) From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Nov 25 15:54:15 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:54:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> On Sunday 25 November 2007 02:26, Lee Corbin wrote: > Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject > line. It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more > important things to think about and to work on than futzing > with such details." As Keith has remarked, so much we > do is really about status. Ha! Sloppiness in thinking and acting is a sign of importance? It doesn't suprise me. It would explain a lot of our political "leaders". But I always assumed that it was due to lack of ability. > > which is a sentence in "truth mode". An interesting question to me > has always been "how effective in changing the world can one be by > remaining purely in truth mode?" I believe that truth is very important in security matters. This does not imply that we cannot keep secrets. But one side-effect of misleading propaganda is that our side gets mislead also. So while it might be a moral boost for us and a psychological attack on the enemy to exaggerate our capabilities, it also will lead the public and congress to cut funding because they don't think we need to develop any further technology if we are so advanced. I think all such lies come back to bite the liar politically, and also mislead our own side into wasting resources due to inaccurate information. A case in point would be the misleading statements used to get us into the war in Iraq. Maybe it was good to goad the country into supporting the war on terror. But as a side-effect, we have wasted a lot of resources looking for WMD that the intelligence community knew didn't really exist. An interesting question to me is whether the lies gained more or lost more in the long run. The other big side-effect is that other nations no longer trust our intelligence community (even though they got the information right and it was misrepresented later). We may have won a battle but lost a larger war. > Of parallel interest: Do enemies > gain an advantage when you refrain from hating them but they > freely indulge in hating you? Is there any place for hate in > Extropianism? I don't think so. The sheer brute strength that anger brings only really helps in physical combat. Where brains, planning, strategy, and logical thinking are required (as in modern warfare), such emotions only cloud the process rather than enhance it. An example would be the current fad of calling terrorists "cowards". This is merely an insulting phrase used to show our vehemence against them. But it is not really based on any data that terrorists are cowards. The reason this bothers me is that I believe our airline security against hijackers in the past were largely based on the assumptions that hijackers were cowards and would not risk their own life. Therefore, our response plans stressed cooperation and not trying to regain control of the plane. We expected them to land safely somewhere where we could more easily deal with them. But if the hijackers are on a suicide mission, this plan is totally useless. A simple assumption that the hijackers are cowards totally misleads the security analysis of the situation. Likewise, I think all hatred or emotions cloud the thinking of such planning. Revenge wants to be swift and severe. But this may interfere with better plans that are organized and precise. > My own tentative answer to the first question is, "A person---or > his or her civilization---maximizes effectiveness by alternating between > truth-mode and partisan-mode", where the latter gives full vent > to hatred of evil. Can you give any examples of this? I base all my security work on truth, and would never resort to emotionalism, jingoism, or propoganda to achieve my goals. I even cringe at the concept of advertising and meme-engineering, because it so often strays from truth-mode. I believe partisan-mode works in the short term because people don't think. But I think it fails in the long-term when its results turn out to be temporary, and when more and more people question what is going on. I would be interested in hearing counter-examples or theories behind the partisan-mode. Also, do you see a resentment factor by the populace when they realize they have been manipulated or mislead into supporting a cause based on partisanship rather than truth? Isn't there a backlash effect when this occurs, such that there is more (or at least some) damage later due to the partisanship that would not have occurred with truth-mode? > My answer to the second question is this: "To remain analytical > towards criminals and towards wrongdoing is itself criminal and > wrong", (even though western civilzation in its descent to selfdestruction > often, sadly, deems this attitude self-righteous and atavistic.) I'm not sure I understand what this means. Are you saying we shouldn't be analytical towards criminals? Or are you saying we shouldn't be *only* analytical at the expense of other responses? I always assumed that even when not in truth-mode, that someone behind the scenes was still observing the truth and making analytical decisions. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI GSEC IAM ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From extropy at unreasonable.com Sun Nov 25 15:35:09 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:35:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com> <200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711251535.lAPFZ6j74725@unreasonable.com> I wrote: > In the best of all possible worlds, I would have an intelligent agent > that mined the list and the outer web, built a predictive model of > each list member, and tuned my posting so that each reader saw a > personal version that optimized the likelihood that they'd read and > reply to to it, much as Amazon does. Bryan replied: >What sort of data would we have to mine in order to make this possible? >I suspect that the preliminary data would be what eacher reader tends >to "read then quit", what ve replies to, etc. Maybe brain scanning, but >I think we can do better than that with less equipment and certainly >less algorithms. There's a lot of digital spoor out there about each of us. I bet that, with a hefty budget, one could acquire enough of it from the different spheres of our lives to pull together a frighteningly accurate predictive model of human behavior. Even just looking at me, and just my activity on-line in mailing lists and newsgroups, I've posted at least 30,000 messages (assuming 3 a day for 27 years; sanity-checked with a glance at my Out mailbox). I'm sure there are tell-tale patterns. For the limited question of subject lines, it would be easy to measure and compare for each of us separately, for the list overall, and for lists throughout the net the reply rates achieved by a posting in a new thread versus a posting in a pre-existing thread. Of course, that wouldn't distinguish between latter postings that were on-topic and those that were not. This feels like something someone is or ought to be studying, perhaps as part of computational anthropology or the linguistics subfield of discourse analysis, alongside the studies examining how rude people are in their on-line interactions as compared to in-person conversation. With a billion people on-line, it might be useful to know something of behavior patterns. -- David. From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 25 16:14:58 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:14:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) Message-ID: <200711251615.lAPGF0k8016891@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] > > How many of you have seen that video that made the rounds on the internet > a few months ago, where the lions jumped the water buffalo*? ... > > Did anyone find a link to that video? Ha! Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM YouTube is sooo kewaaal, makes ya glad to have been born so late in history. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 25 16:01:47 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 08:01:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <200711251628.lAPGSVBq015647@andromeda.ziaspace.com> ... > > Spike wrote: > > > Can we really say we shouldn't be helping the Iraqis beat this plague? > All > > cultures are not fundamentally equivalent. It is our business because > we > > are good people. Al qaeda is evil. > > Keith replied: > > An EP view of such awful actions has no room for "evil" any more than > lions keeping down the population of zebras is evil... Ja. This is where I can't seem to fully grasp the universal scientific view provided by EP. I can easily view almost all human behavior from an amoral viewpoint, with a few important exceptions, which I am stuck having to label with the subjective term "evil". I have a short list of evil institutions which are or were once accepted by a large segment of the population: slavery, Nazism, communism and Al-Queda/Taliban. How many of you have seen that video that made the rounds on the internet a few months ago, where the lions jumped the water buffalo*? Is it still on YouTube? That video always reminds me that if the zebras work together, they can defeat the lions. If they could communicate effectively, they could organize themselves, and whenever the lions managed to take down a zebra, the herd could stampede and either drive off the cats or trample them into the dust. The zebras could drive the cats completely to extinction, if only they could work together instead of acting as hundreds of ineffective individuals. spike *Short description of the video: a family of water buffalo wander near the river minding their own business when they are suddenly jumped by five lions. The buffalo bolt, but the cats catch the youngest, which struggles, briefly escapes, flees toward the river. The cats catch it again on the bank, but suddenly a crocodile lunges from the water and grabs a leg of the buffalo. The lions and the crocodile have a tug of war, a game in which the big reptile has an advantage even against five lions, but suddenly the crocodile inexplicably releases the morsel and bolts. The cats sit down to devour their prey, when suddenly realize why the croc left town, for they look up to find that the water buffalo have returned in large and very pissed off numbers. The cats now have a river to their backs (with a hungry and revenge-oriented crocodile therein) and the entire herd of water buffalo closing in, surrounding by pi radians, with looks on their faces that seem to say "That's my baby you have there, and now you toothy sons a bitches are going to die." The buffalo whoop ass, the baby actually gets up and trots away, the people cheer. Did anyone find a link to that video? From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 17:08:11 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:08:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c520711250908j3451ed62hb9899159681d829b@mail.gmail.com> Interesting example, I knew similar ones but not this one. I have not done the simulation myself, but do not find the result too shocking. Everyone who has played poker or casino games knows that probability calculations are tricky and intuitive answers can be wrong. If this is the profound principle you are referring to, I think (hope) most people integrate it in their daily thinking already, without giving it a deep philosophical meaning. G. On Nov 24, 2007 4:43 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > This TED video illustrates a difficulty at the core of much futurist discussion. > > The subject is not new, but it might as well be, for the resounding > lack of progress acquiring an intuitive grasp of reasoning about > uncertainty. > > Many will watch this video -- it's from TED and therefore expected to > be high quality. > > But how many will make the effort to integrate its very simple, > profound principle into your daily thinking? It's very simple, but > not necessarily easy. > > How many of you will shake your head, "rationalize" that it's just a > little too abstract, and go on arguing with passion and great > certainty despite an obvious disqualification? > > Yes, I'm being quite tactless. This is important, people! > > > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 25 17:36:29 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:36:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom ... > A case in point would be the misleading statements used to get us into the > war in Iraq... Whose? Bush's? Powell's? Tenet's? > ...But as a side-effect, we have wasted a lot of resources looking > for WMD that the intelligence community knew didn't really exist... Who in the intelligence community knew this? Harvey, does this comment take into account the information found in (then CIA director George) Tenet's book At the Center of the Storm? The CIA director was convinced Saddam had chem and bio weapons, and either had or was trying to get nukes. He comments that the decision to invade Iraq was a slam dunk. (Tenet devotes a chapter in Storm explaining the slam dunk comment.) There were those in the intelligence community that suspected or believed that Saddam didn't have nukes (such as Valerie Plame), but were not willing to bet everything. How could they? If Tenet didn't know for sure, how could anyone below him? This would explain why Mr. Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson, never wrote a report upon his return from his alleged trip to Niger. He didn't know, and realized he couldn't know. Not writing a report is equivalent to finding nothing. Wilson's after-the-fact 6 July 2003 New York Times column was an attempt to say I-told-ya-so. Wilson told nothing. Why didn't Wilson write that column in July of 2002, before the 2003 state of the union address? > ... (even though they got the information right and it > was misrepresented later)... Harvey Newstrom The case that Tenet makes in Storm and the later declassified documents: Saddam was afraid of Iran, far more afraid than he was of the US or Europe, (which explains his "dangerous neighborhood" comments) so he attempted to make the US believe that he *might* have nukes, in the belief that the US would convince Iran, who would then leave him alone. This would explain why Saddam kept deflecting the UN inspection team: to create the illusion that he may be hiding something, and Saddam's pre-invasion MOAB comments. Tenet's book and later materials refute my earlier notion that Saddam himself thought he had nukes, perhaps convinced by his corrupt generals. He knew he didn't have them, but was trying to convince Iran that he did. Saddam kept playing this gambit even as coalition troops amassed on his border, for he was betting the coalition would not invade without Germany, France and Russia. He bet that those three guys wouldn't sign on, because war materials from all three had found their way into Iraq while the UN sanctions were still in place, apparently with the knowledge of but without the consent of the governments of those three countries. Tenet argues in Storm that it was a failure on both sides of that poker match: we didn't realize that Saddam was bluffing, and Saddam didn't realize that we were not. spike From neptune at superlink.net Sun Nov 25 18:07:51 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:07:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <006801c82f8e$18afe020$3e893cd1@pavilion> On Sunday, November 25, 2007 2:26 AM Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com wrote: > John writes > > >i think somewhere along the way we forgot > > to change the subject line! > > Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject > line. It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more > important things to think about and to work on than futzing > with such details." As Keith has remarked, so much we > do is really about status. This reminds me of that book by Helmut Shoeck -- _Envy_. Has anyone here read it? Reading it, a few years ago, I started to pick up on envy in other people's and my behavior. (Or maybe the truth is, I'm reading the book into my life rather than finding firming evidence.:) Regards, Dan See my droolings on epistemology at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Percept.html and http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Dialogue.html and http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/PCR.html From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:15:27 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:15:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711251115o359ad19k68f1a564da3aca27@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2007 6:36 PM, spike wrote: > The CIA director was convinced Saddam had > chem and bio weapons, and either had or was trying to get nukes. If he actually had them, Bush would still be negotiating... WMD are indeed a danger. For those who do not have them. Stefano Vaj From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 25 19:22:36 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:22:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <20071125192236.GW4005@leitl.org> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 09:36:29AM -0800, spike wrote: > Tenet argues in Storm that it was a failure on both sides of that poker > match: we didn't realize that Saddam was bluffing, and Saddam didn't realize > that we were not. Spike, you really need to read "A Pretext for War" by Bamford (his "Puzzle Palace" and "Body of Secrets" are perhaps more familiar, and give longer views on the intelligence business). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From eugen at leitl.org Sun Nov 25 19:39:00 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:39:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? Message-ID: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Quite a few people, including those I respect, have become annoyed with my style of moderation. While this is not a democracy, there's no point in this if I annoy people to the point they cease posting altogether. So this is a kind of vote -- please mail it to me privately. Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk? Single yes or no would be enough. Thanks. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:44:53 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:44:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <20071125192236.GW4005@leitl.org> References: <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <20071125192236.GW4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: On 11/25/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Spike, you really need to read "A Pretext for War" by Bamford (his "Puzzle > Palace" and "Body of Secrets" are perhaps more familiar, and give > longer views on the intelligence business). > Or just read this interview with James Bamford - A Pretext for War An Interview With James Bamford by Kevin B. Zeese May 26, 2005 ------------ BillK From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 25 22:15:56 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:15:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? In-Reply-To: <1196001341.25580.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1196001341.25580.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 11/25/07, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 07:43 -0800, Jef Allbright wrote: > > This TED video illustrates a difficulty at the core of much futurist discussion. > > > > The subject is not new, but it might as well be, for the resounding > > lack of progress acquiring an intuitive grasp of reasoning about > > uncertainty. > > > [snip] > > > > Thanks Jef for that link. While the message is about the general > suckiness of humanity in understanding probability, I was struck by the > specifics of the result of the first example too much to pay much > attention to the rest of the video (which was more familiar to me). Alejandro, thanks for your response and your interest. Actually (and I didn't make it clear), I was trying to accomplish two things with that post: (1) Get people thinking about the general state of statistical illiteracy, and (2) challenge people to work through why Bayes is so important. The opening puzzle was only incidental to my interest. Anyway, your response kindled a little more interest in me so I wrote my own program and did a little more experimenting. Results (10,000,000 tosses) String: TT Average: 6.00 String: HT Average: 4.00 String: HTT Average: 8.00 String: HTH Average: 10.00 String: HTTT Average: 16.01 String: HTHT Average: 20.02 String: HTTTT Average: 32.02 String: HTHTH Average: 41.97 Here's my code for anyone who's interested: #!/usr/bin/env python from __future__ import division import random, re input = ['HTT', 'HTH'] output = [] N = 100000 def process_matches(s): intervals = [] offset = 0 for index, m in enumerate(re.finditer(s, seq)): current = m.start() - offset; offset = m.start() intervals.append(current) if index and not(index % 1000): print '.', return sum(intervals) / len(intervals) print 'Creating pseudo-random sequence of %i tosses...' % N seq = ''.join([random.choice(['H', 'T']) for i in range(N)]) for inp in input: print '\nMatching %s.' % inp, output.append((inp, process_matches(inp))) print '\n' for outp in output: print 'String: %s\tAverage: %.2f' % (outp) [END] From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 25 23:25:02 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:25:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <20071125192236.GW4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl > Subject: Re: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 09:36:29AM -0800, spike wrote: > > > Tenet argues in Storm that it was a failure on both sides of that poker > > match: we didn't realize that Saddam was bluffing, and Saddam didn't > realize > > that we were not. > > Spike, you really need to read "A Pretext for War" by Bamford (his "Puzzle > Palace" and "Body of Secrets" are perhaps more familiar, and give > longer views on the intelligence business). > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/zeese1.html Gene, I saw on the Bamford website several things that cast serious doubt upon his credibility, but the most serious one is this quote: " One CIA analyst from the Iraq Nonproliferation section told me that his boss once called his office together (about 50 people) and said, "You know what - if Bush wants to go to war, it's your job to give him a reason to do so." The former analyst added, "And I said, 'All right, it's time, it's time to go. And I just remember saying, 'This is something that the American public, if they ever knew, they would be outraged.'" If anyone sees anything illegal in government, that person is legally and morally obligated to report it. This includes any illegal order given by a military officer, or any illegal order given by a CIA boss. In this case, there should be somewhere fifty reports floating around from first hand witnesses, plus stacks of reports that those reports generated, and further reports all over the place. Failing to report an illegal order is illegal and makes the non-reporter complicit. If such a meeting ever took place, there would be a hundred leaks to CNN by that afternoon. The fact that Bamford didn't give the name of that analyst (or former analyst) or the CIA boss who issued illegal orders tells me that the meeting never took place, the order was never issued. I would allow that someone offered that bit of fiction to Bamford. Bamford comments: "Intelligence was manipulated, mangled, ignored, and analysts were harassed and bullied to present the false picture that Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S." Are we to believe no one documented analysts being harassed and bullied? Where are the reports? Bamford comments: "In talking with intelligence analysts and case officers, in the months leading up to the war none believed that Iraq posed a threat to the U.S." Oh do come now Mr. Bamford. Bamford comments: "The most basic evidence was the fact that Iraq had never begun work on a long-range missile system (unlike Iran and North Korea), something that can be easily seen..." Can it be seen if done indoors? What if he bought the missiles from some nation hostile nation? What if he intended to smuggle the weapons? Or give them to terrorists? I think Tenet has a lot more credibility, and he makes none of these kinds of charges. spike From santostasigio at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 23:58:24 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:58:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Evolutiion is not random,... In-Reply-To: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Along the line of what we were discussing sometime ago about evolution and randomness, here some interesting reading: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm It is claimed that underlying process of evolution is not randomness but instead deterministic processes. --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 01:42:58 2007 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:12:58 +1030 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc0711251742u680dd3edyc720d0e8418c211e@mail.gmail.com> no On 26/11/2007, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Quite a few people, including those I respect, have become annoyed with > my style of moderation. While this is not a democracy, there's no > point in this if I annoy people to the point they cease posting > altogether. > > So this is a kind of vote -- please mail it to me privately. > Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk? > Single yes or no would be enough. > > Thanks. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com From rpicone at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 01:52:51 2007 From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:52:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Evolutiion is not random,... In-Reply-To: <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2007 3:58 PM, giovanni santost wrote: > Along the line of what we were discussing sometime ago about evolution and > randomness, here some interesting reading: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm > > It is claimed that underlying process of evolution is not randomness but > instead deterministic processes. > The actual study made no such claims, they said that *developmental*evolution *in the nematode vulva* occurred *primarily* through deterministic mechanisms. Basically, it was a claim that when ways to form a single, already defined structure are evolving, only two of forty factors were random, while the others were at least somewhat convergent. See: http://www.current-biology.com/content/article/fulltext?uid=PIIS0960982207021938 All this has no bearing I am aware of on the "underlying process of evolution", which is neither inherently random nor inherently deterministic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomas at thomasoliver.net Mon Nov 26 00:21:37 2007 From: thomas at thomasoliver.net (Thomas Oliver) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:21:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? Message-ID: > Jef wrote: > > This TED video illustrates a difficulty at the core of much > futurist discussion. Mark Hauser thinks evolution hard wired us for righeousness. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/05.03/15-hauser.html > The subject is not new, but it might as well be, for the resounding > lack of progress acquiring an intuitive grasp of reasoning about > uncertainty. If "uncertain" feels like "maybe wrong" then it usually activates our defense agencies. > > Many will watch this video -- it's from TED and therefore expected to > be high quality. > > But how many will make the effort to integrate its very simple, > profound principle into your daily thinking? It's very simple, but > not necessarily easy. It steps outside of default assumptions and without default assumptions the world would simply make no sense. > > How many of you will shake your head, "rationalize" that it's just a > little too abstract, and go on arguing with passion and great > certainty despite an obvious disqualification? You can disqualify anything with infinite regress (and you probably have), but at some point even you have justified your beliefs as true. That does not make them obvious to all others. > Yes, I'm being quite tactless. This is important, people! > > > > - Jef I enjoyed learning about dealing with uncertainty more than learning about your manners. So, thanks. -- Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 26 02:37:03 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:37:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] It's simply obvious, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/25/07, Thomas Oliver wrote: > your manners. So, thanks. -- Thomas You're welcome. - Jef From santostasigio at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 03:28:31 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:28:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Evolutiion is not random,... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <967317.30394.qm@web31315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Evolution is a complex phenomenon, of course, a single study, on a very particular, very specific case of a instance of this process cannot be easily generalized to make broad statements on the "underlying process" but still this is a little bit more evidence that indicates that randomness is not an "answer all" to understand Evolution. I think this study is very relevant to the kind of discussion we had some time ago on same topic. Robert Picone wrote: On Nov 25, 2007 3:58 PM, giovanni santost wrote: Along the line of what we were discussing sometime ago about evolution and randomness, here some interesting reading: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm It is claimed that underlying process of evolution is not randomness but instead deterministic processes. The actual study made no such claims, they said that developmental evolution in the nematode vulva occurred primarily through deterministic mechanisms. Basically, it was a claim that when ways to form a single, already defined structure are evolving, only two of forty factors were random, while the others were at least somewhat convergent. See: http://www.current-biology.com/content/article/fulltext?uid=PIIS0960982207021938 All this has no bearing I am aware of on the "underlying process of evolution", which is neither inherently random nor inherently deterministic. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Mon Nov 26 07:19:37 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:19:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Evolutiion is not random,... In-Reply-To: <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/25/07, giovanni santost wrote: > It is claimed that underlying process of evolution is not randomness but > instead deterministic processes. It's both, sheesh. ;-) Not directly to the above point (which is too uninformed for an effective response) but the following link may be of interest to some who are dissatisfied with the lack of subtlety in much of the "party line" on evolutionary theory. Recent Work on the Levels of Selection Problem Human Nature Review 2003 Volume 3 - Jef From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 20:53:30 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:53:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] regarding wickedness (was beowolf) Message-ID: <2542.74098.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the story of the water buffalo herd standing up to the lions is a very thought-provoking story. Lately, i have been wondering why the decent people of the world (esp. In the developed nations) don't peacefully rise up to change things for the better. But i suppose many folks are so preoccupied with just making a living that there is not much time or energy left over for improving society. And the glut of entertainment options have been said to be the distracting "bread and circuses" of our modern time. How do we break out of our little worlds and really make a difference? John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 20:54:18 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:54:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] regarding wickedness (was beowolf) Message-ID: <846019.95006.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the story of the water buffalo herd standing up to the lions is a very thought-provoking story. Lately, i have been wondering why the decent people of the world (esp. In the developed nations) don't peacefully rise up to change things for the better. But i suppose many folks are so preoccupied with just making a living that there is not much time or energy left over for improving society. And the glut of entertainment options have been said to be the distracting "bread and circuses" of our modern time. How do we break out of our little worlds and really make a difference? John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 05:03:24 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:03:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] meta: do you still want me as a list moderator? Message-ID: <455239.56555.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> no. I stopped top posting and yet i still wait hours/days for my emails to the list to be posted (and some never make it). John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From sentience at pobox.com Mon Nov 26 08:09:16 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:09:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meta: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <455239.56555.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <455239.56555.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474A7F2C.20301@pobox.com> Lest the audience be biased by seeing only those people who publicly voted "no", despite Eugen asking for the votes to be sent in privately, be it said that I previously sent Eugen a message saying "yes". Did Eugen previously threaten to toss me from the list if I kept sending URLs without posting the articles themselves? Yes. Did this annoy me? Yes. Did it burn? Yes. Did I shut up and live with it? Yes. Don't knock Eugen if you've never had to moderate a list yourself. I have and it's not easy. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sentience at pobox.com Mon Nov 26 08:27:51 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:27:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meta: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <474A7F2C.20301@pobox.com> References: <455239.56555.qm@web35602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <474A7F2C.20301@pobox.com> Message-ID: <474A8387.80409@pobox.com> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote: > > Did Eugen previously threaten to toss me from the list if I kept > sending URLs without posting the articles themselves? Yes. Did this > annoy me? Yes. Did it burn? Yes. Did I shut up and live with it? Yes. > > Don't knock Eugen if you've never had to moderate a list yourself. I > have and it's not easy. Correction: The threat was being placed on moderation, not being banned per se. Knocking heads is a list moderator's job, people. Don't take it personally. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jmeyer at chemie.uni-kl.de Mon Nov 26 11:51:32 2007 From: jmeyer at chemie.uni-kl.de (Jonathan Meyer) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:51:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: I think you should keep doing your Job.. I approve the way you try to keep the noise out.. A List Lurker On Nov 25, 2007 8:39 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Quite a few people, including those I respect, have become annoyed with > my style of moderation. While this is not a democracy, there's no > point in this if I annoy people to the point they cease posting > altogether. > > So this is a kind of vote -- please mail it to me privately. > Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk? > Single yes or no would be enough. > > Thanks. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- My Contactdetails online: eMail: jmeyer at chemie.uni-kl.de MSN, Google Talk: erathostenes at gmail.com ICQ: 202600300 AIM: behemoth2302 Yahoo: jonathan.meyer Jabber: behemoth at jabber.ccc.de Tel: +496312775205 Mobile: +4917629718323 SIP: 5852760 at sipgate.de Internet: http://taiwan.joto.de StudiVZ: http://www.studivz.net/profile.php?ids=X338jV http://www.couchsurfing.org/people/erathostenes http://member.hospitalityclub.org/behemoth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 12:23:36 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:23:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <580930c20711260423u2573b4cfse6cfc3de99148e14@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2007 12:51 PM, Jonathan Meyer wrote: > I think you should keep doing your Job.. So do I, as I have already privately written to Eugen. Would I do something differently in his shoes? Possibly. Do I want the job for myself or care to indicate an alternative candidate? No, and I am grateful to him for his performing this role. Stefano Vaj From alito at organicrobot.com Mon Nov 26 12:51:11 2007 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:51:11 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Amazement at sequence's expected appearance was Re: It's simply obvious, right? In-Reply-To: References: <1196001341.25580.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1196081471.25580.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 14:15 -0800, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > > The opening puzzle was only incidental to my interest. Anyway, your > response kindled a little more interest in me so I wrote my own > program and did a little more experimenting. > More programs but I promise I'll stop soon. This one compares all strings of length x. Still wanting someone to point me to The Formula. eg, length 5, run of 10 million tosses. Total for TTTTT: 160805 Average: 62.187121 Total for HHHHH: 161354 Average: 61.975532 Total for HTHTH: 237658 Average: 42.077271 Total for THTHT: 237917 Average: 42.031465 Total for TTHTT: 262838 Average: 38.046249 Total for HHTHH: 263012 Average: 38.021079 Total for HTTHT: 277783 Average: 35.999323 Total for THHTH: 278147 Average: 35.952212 Total for THTTH: 278162 Average: 35.950274 Total for HTHHT: 278202 Average: 35.945105 Total for HTHHH: 293976 Average: 34.016382 Total for HTTTH: 294031 Average: 34.010019 Total for THTTT: 294063 Average: 34.006318 Total for HHTTH: 294098 Average: 34.002271 Total for TTTHT: 294281 Average: 33.981127 Total for THHHT: 294298 Average: 33.979164 Total for HHHTH: 294330 Average: 33.975470 Total for HTTHH: 294630 Average: 33.940875 Total for TTHHT: 294787 Average: 33.922798 Total for THHTT: 294930 Average: 33.906351 Total for HHHTT: 311835 Average: 32.068241 Total for HHHHT: 311881 Average: 32.063511 Total for THHHH: 311881 Average: 32.063511 Total for TTHHH: 312098 Average: 32.041218 Total for TTTHH: 312553 Average: 31.994574 Total for HHTTT: 312868 Average: 31.962361 Total for HTTTT: 312869 Average: 31.962259 Total for TTTTH: 312869 Average: 31.962259 Total for THTHH: 312967 Average: 31.952251 Total for TTHTH: 312984 Average: 31.950515 Total for HHTHT: 313111 Average: 31.937556 Total for HTHTT: 313129 Average: 31.935720 #!/usr/bin/python #Call as python whateveryoucallthescript.py import os, sys import random class Contender(object): def __init__(self, sequence): self.sequence = sequence self.count = 0 self.offer = '' def flip(self, face): self.offer += face if self.offer[-len(self.sequence):] == self.sequence: self.count += 1 self.offer = '' def tosser(): while True: yield random.choice(['H', 'T']) def decimal2binary(n): b = '' while True: if n <= 0: break if (n % 2) == 0: b = '0' + b else: b = '1' + b n //= 2 if b == '': b = '0' return b def main(args): if len(args) <= 0: length = 2 else: try: length = int(args[0]) if length < 1: raise ValueError() except ValueError: print >> sys.stderr, "Need a length parameter that is an integer bigger than zero" sys.exit(1) if len(args) > 1: try: samples = int(args[1]) except ValueError: print >> sys.stderr, "Second parameter is the number of samples" sys.exit(1) else: samples = 100000 upper = 2 ** length contenders = [Contender(decimal2binary(k).rjust(length, '0').replace('0', 'H').replace('1', 'T')) for k in range(upper)] for c in contenders: print c.sequence for index, face in enumerate(tosser()): if index > samples: break if (index % 10000) == 0: print index for c in contenders: c.flip(face) contenders.sort(key=lambda k: k.count) for c in contenders: print "Total for %s: %d\tAverage: %f" % (c.sequence, c.count, float(samples)/c.count) if __name__ == '__main__': main(sys.argv[1:]) From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Nov 26 14:47:38 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:47:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20071126144742.YVVI9083.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Yes, I want you as list moderator. No doubt about it and I am speaking as a freely-choosing autonomous self, who freely chooses to be on this list. Natasha From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 26 15:44:27 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:44:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meta: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <474A7F2C.20301@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200711261611.lAQGB9ko013585@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eliezer S. Yudkowsky >...Yes. Did it burn? Yes. Did I shut up and live with it? Yes. > > Don't knock Eugen if you've never had to moderate a list yourself. I > have and it's not easy. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky ... Thanks Eli. Note that Gene worded the question as "Should I resign?" in the body of the message, while the title of the post was "do you still want me as a list moderator?" Do make it clear if you mean he should stay or not. spike From neptune at superlink.net Mon Nov 26 16:21:57 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:21:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com><394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a801c83048$7796a8c0$45893cd1@pavilion> I think the better way of putting it is it's blind -- regardless of whether the processes underlying it are stochastic or deterministic or a little of both. This means simply that it isn't forward-looking. Regards, Dan From neptune at superlink.net Mon Nov 26 16:26:12 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:26:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science Message-ID: <00ce01c83049$0f86d6a0$45893cd1@pavilion> The current issue of _Liberty_ has a brief article on Bigfoot: "Sasquatcherie: There's an idea in those woods, and it sometimes looks large and furry." See: http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2007_12/index.html Sadly, the article is not online. The gist of it is a review of Jeff Meldrum's _Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science_. I've seen the book in local bookstores. (I haven't seen Bigfoot.:) The article's author, Jon Harrison, seems well versed in the literature. Any comments? (And I'm not one of those kooks who buys into this. I'm just intersted in the process of vetting the evidence and hypotheses.) Regards, Dan See my droolings on epistemology at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Percept.html and http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Dialogue.html and http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/PCR.html From kevin at kevinfreels.com Mon Nov 26 17:16:20 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevin at kevinfreels.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:16:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... Message-ID: <20071126101620.38f036b76284185e041b1b237c97abe6.0b3ff59646.wbe@email.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at kevinfreels.com Mon Nov 26 17:16:24 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevin at kevinfreels.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:16:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... Message-ID: <20071126101623.38f036b76284185e041b1b237c97abe6.4850ea135c.wbe@email.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 26 18:28:53 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:28:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... In-Reply-To: <00a801c83048$7796a8c0$45893cd1@pavilion> References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00a801c83048$7796a8c0$45893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071126120013.02306e08@satx.rr.com> At 11:21 AM 11/26/2007 -0500, Dan wrote: >I think the better way of putting it is it's blind -- regardless of >whether the processes underlying it are stochastic or deterministic or a >little of both. This means simply that it isn't forward-looking. As Robert Picone noted, the original article wasn't talking about *evolution* (whatever that means), but made a drastically more limited claim, namely: But suppose the question is regarded more generally. How do we *know* evolutionary change does not sometimes contain a forward-looking component, a kind of foresight or preemptive adaptation? The answer seems obvious: firstly, because the altered future to which any critter would have to be pre-adapted is unknown and unknowable; and even if it were in principle calculable by an intelligence, the genes don't have direct knowledge of the world, nor any means to calculate probabilities, nor any means to modify themselves except via random shufflings. But is all of this true? And how do we know it is? Has anyone put it to the test? Might it explain certain aspects of life without doing violence to what's already known? The proposition seems so outrageous that I'd bet very few scientists in the last half century have ever tried to model the question. Suppose some of the spare clock cycles of any complex brain were used to model (i.e. imagine counterfactually) the benefits of certain phenotypic changes in worlds somewhat different from here&now. Absurd, of course, but if that were possible (say, if the Penrose hypothesis is right, and brains are quantum computers), and if some kinds of bio-feedback allowed microchanges at the cellular and genomic levels that conduced to favoured phenotypes, might we see a kind of Lamarckian aspect to evolution? Suppose further that some kinds of psi are real, that a sheaf of most probably futures and their weightings can be glimpsed in advance, and that a kind of anomalous perturbation or psychokinesis at the microlevel can deform genomes to create phenotypes better fitted to such imminent environments... Absurd, of course, everyone knows that, but still--suppose it were the case... What sort of experiments have been done that would reveal such a feature of evolution? Cutting off the foreskins of umpteen Jewish generations is NOT a test, disproving any such effect by the lack of babies born without foreskins. There's no life-and-death crisis connected with being born with a foreskin; indeed, it's possible that in a culture where circumcision is mandatory and numinous, being born without a foreskin would make a boy freakish and disadvantaged. But one might make several preparations of a known bacterial or murine population into which, at random or by preordained choice, certain poisons or currently-undigestible-nutrients will be introduced in two or three generations' time. Might there be an anticipatory genomic shift? This sort of "precognitive" advance adaptation would distinguish the eventual genome distribution from that of control groups. (I'm no experimentalist; this might not be the best way to test the idea.) Is there any cultural difference between human or other complex mammal groups that might display such an effect unambiguously? The question, to say it yet again, is absurd, of course--but it's entertaining to think about how one might *test* such unthinkable ideas, rather than simply dismissing them ex cathedra. Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 18:57:55 2007 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:57:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: I dislike flame wars and drivel more than I do tough moderation. I "vote" that Eugen continue as moderator. Jeff Davis On Nov 25, 2007 12:39 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Quite a few people, including those I respect, have become annoyed with > my style of moderation. While this is not a democracy, there's no > point in this if I annoy people to the point they cease posting > altogether. > > So this is a kind of vote -- please mail it to me privately. > Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk? > Single yes or no would be enough. > > Thanks. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 19:00:37 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:00:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] first phase of portrait series Message-ID: <752503.37775.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i just wanted to add that perhaps there could be a "phase two" where you create several dozen more portraits (with young turks like eliezer and anders) and as natasha stated, you might add text in the form of quotes (or maybe even have full-length interviews!). This would be presented in a regular book format. Best wishes, john grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From benboc at lineone.net Mon Nov 26 21:54:00 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:54:00 +0000 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <474B4078.1070703@lineone.net> I'd like to add my voice to those who know how much of a pain in the arse being a moderator can be, and who appreciate anyone who is willing to be a pain in the arse to the rest of us for the sake of keeping the list in order. I vote Arrr (that's "Aye" in Pirate) for keeping Eugen as a moderator. ben zed From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 22:45:16 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:45:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] first phase of portrait series "masterminds of H+" is finished Message-ID: <131922.33041.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> G?nter Bachelier is a talented artist who has done vaguely Andy Warhol-like portraits of various prominent Transhumanists. I just want to add that perhaps there could be a "phase two" where he creates several dozen more portraits (with young turks like Eliezer) and as Natasha stated, he might add text in the form of quotes (or maybe even have full-length interviews!). This would be presented in a regular book format. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gbachelier/collections/72157603242021077/ Best wishes, John Grigg I hate my non-Blackberry internet connected cell phone (just look below at how things don't format right...)!!! i just wanted to add that perhaps there could be a "phase two" where you create several dozen more portraits (with young turks like eliezer and anders) and as natasha stated, you might add text in the form of quotes (or maybe even have full-length interviews!). This would be presented in a regular book format. Best wishes, john grigg --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 22:23:11 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:23:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] "Skepticality" website In-Reply-To: <752503.37775.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <424794.86948.qm@web35609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I thought this "Skeptical Inquirer"-style website would be right up everyone's alley. I included the Sci Fi website article with the URL. John Grigg http://www.skepticality.com/index.php By A.M. Dellamonica It wasn't that long ago that the Golden Age of radio seemed an irretrievable relic of history ... but now webcasting and podcasting have burst upon the audio scene, allowing Internet users to make listening choices with extraordinary precision. SF and science-related broadcasts have proliferated ever since. Today, fans can download fiction, author interviews, movie and TV gossip and just about everything else related to the genre. For listeners interested in pseudoscience, not to mention the hard-working scientists who debunk hoaxes, expose phony psychics, disprove urban myths and counter false "scientific" claims, Skepticality is a humorous, down-to-earth reality check. On the most recent program, hosts Derek and Swoopy interview evolutionary biologist Randy Olson, the filmmaker behind Flock of Dodos: the Evolution?Intelligent Design Circus. The show has explored how the skeptical community turns rational beliefs into concrete outreach and activist projects. It has "invaded" DragonCon, examined the number 5, and even taken on the debate over the environmental cost of drinking bottled water. The Skepticality Web site posts an extensive list of notes and facts to accompany every podcast, and its links page boasts an extensive rundown of former guests, whose number includes James Randi, crop circle maker Tom Irving and an astronomer from the SETI Institute, Seth Shostak. The site boasts discussion forums and a chat room?though both tend to be somewhat glitchy?where topics under discussion include a "Sci-Fi Pet Peeves" area (where people wax exasperated about scientific mistakes in SF media), a general film and TV forum, a series of limericks based on common logical fallacies, and forums for scientific, political and philosophical debates. Skepticality is open-minded but never credulous, willing to examine just about any topic imaginable and equally ready to discredit the unprovable, irrational or simply far-fetched. "Truth in Podcasting" is the motto of this program, and though the show certainly has its moments of whimsy, truth is precisely what it tries to deliver. --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Nov 26 23:42:36 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:42:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <1196120540_31882@S4.cableone.net> At 12:26 AM 11/25/2007, Lee wrote: snip >and Keith replied > > > An EP view of such awful actions has no room for "evil" any more than > > lions keeping down the population of zebras is evil. > >which is a sentence in "truth mode". An interesting question to me >has always been "how effective in changing the world can one be by >remaining purely in truth mode?". I think you might want to qualify this as "changing the world in *desirable* directions." Consider OBL and 9/11. >Of parallel interest: Do enemies >gain an advantage when you refrain from hating them but they >freely indulge in hating you? People in the grip of hate tend to be irrational. To the extent that acting rational or irrational is more or less effective in accomplishing a goal, you gain or lose advantage. >Is there any place for hate in Extropianism? > >Lee > >P.S. > >My own tentative answer to the first question is, "A person---or >his or her civilization---maximizes effectiveness by alternating between >truth-mode and partisan-mode", where the latter gives full vent >to hatred of evil. The problem here is "hatred of evil." We of the west consider it evil to flog a woman for being raped, while fundamental Islamics consider women driving cars to be evil. >My answer to the second question is this: "To remain analytical >towards criminals and towards wrongdoing is itself criminal and >wrong", (even though western civilzation in its descent to selfdestruction >often, sadly, deems this attitude self-righteous and atavistic.) An analytic approach can be just as effective in dealing with those who are not in your group as any emotion driven behavior. Of course, combining analytic leaders with emotion driven followers is probably the most effective when the goal is a serious reduction of the population. It really reduce to economics (or in stone age ecosystem productivity) and population growth. An analytic approach to the world situation calls for either a substantial boost in technology or a reduction in population of about 2/3rds. Keith From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 00:42:39 2007 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:12:39 +1030 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0711251742u680dd3edyc720d0e8418c211e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> <710b78fc0711251742u680dd3edyc720d0e8418c211e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0711261642r21e7f67dg76559e69aa1f8097@mail.gmail.com> To be clear, I meant "no you should not resign". I think Eugen's doing a great job, clearly a thankless one. My apologies, I didn't look back at the subject and see the reversal of the logic there. Emlyn On 26/11/2007, Emlyn wrote: > no > > On 26/11/2007, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > > Quite a few people, including those I respect, have become annoyed with > > my style of moderation. While this is not a democracy, there's no > > point in this if I annoy people to the point they cease posting > > altogether. > > > > So this is a kind of vote -- please mail it to me privately. > > Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk? > > Single yes or no would be enough. > > > > Thanks. > > > > -- > > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > > ______________________________________________________________ > > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org > > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 27 01:34:48 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:34:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:36 PM, spike wrote: > > A case in point would be the misleading statements used to > > get us into the war in Iraq... > > Whose? Bush's? Powell's? Tenet's? Any or all of these. I think Bush deliberately lied. I think Powell was seriously upset when he found out the truth about what he was given to brief to the UN. I think Tenet gave Bush exactly what he wanted. But besides the top politico's, I think the general intelligence gatherers and interpreters knew this stuff was bogus. The records are full of instances where they said so. Their reports were selectively edited together to weave a complete story that no intelligence officer actually presented. > Who in the intelligence community knew this? Harvey, does > this comment take into account the information found in (then > CIA director George) Tenet's book At the Center of the Storm? > The CIA director was convinced Saddam had chem and bio > weapons, and either had or was trying to get nukes. He > comments that the decision to invade Iraq was a slam dunk. Yes. But there was no evidence for this belief. Such "evidence" came from Bush's political appointees and not through regular intelligence channels. The big tragedy in all this is that people think the American Intelligence gathering was flawed. It wasn't. It was deliberately distorted by higher ups. > The case that Tenet makes in Storm and the later declassified > documents: [....] All true. But our intelligence reported that there was no evidence of Saddam's lies. Our intelligence reported that the sources were unreliable and seemed to be fabricating stories for the money we paid them. The intelligence community did know that Saddam was bluffing. It was for political purposes that the administration didn't want to believe it. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 27 02:03:01 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:03:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <0FB6F31BAC744630BF27FB11890A047E@Catbert> FYI, your subject line asks "do you still want me as a list moderator?" while your body text asks "Should I resign as a moderator for exi-chat and wta-talk?" Two opposite questions, so most of your short answers will be indeterminate. Being from Florida, I am sensitive to these voting irregularities.... -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From mail at harveynewstrom.com Tue Nov 27 01:59:31 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:59:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] META: do you still want me as a list moderator? In-Reply-To: <20071125193900.GY4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: Keep doing it! I drift in and out based on the quality of the list. I have stormed off angry when I thought moderators let the list deteriorate or didn't seem to want to do their job. I'm currently back, the list seems better again, and you are moderating. I don't think it's a coincidence. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 27 03:12:20 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:12:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... In-Reply-To: <20071126101620.38f036b76284185e041b1b237c97abe6.0b3ff59646.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <200711270339.lAR3d2fh021582@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of kevin at kevinfreels.com Subject: Re: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... ... >That's not to say that the ability to breath CO2 wouldn't come to our descendents. Just that to get there would require many other changes over many other alleys to get back to?that point...Dan Dan, the ability the breathe CO2 will not come to our descendants. CO2 is a ground state chemical, which is to say you need to put energy into it to make anything else. Likewise with water. Plants metabolize CO2 at an energy loss in order to get the carbon for basic building materials. We animals of course get our carbon and energy by devouring the plants. Such a deal! It is said that blondes have more fun, but I consider that overly specific, for all members of the animalia kingdom have more way fun than the plantae, protista, fungi or monera. Being an animal is but one more thing for which we can be thankful, ja? {8-] spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 27 03:40:05 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:40:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness (was beowolf) In-Reply-To: <1196120540_31882@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711270406.lAR46l4T011391@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson ... > > The problem here is "hatred of evil." We of the west consider it evil > to flog a woman for being raped, while fundamental Islamics consider > women driving cars to be evil. ... > Keith One can almost see their point. After the way they have treated their women, they are understandably reluctant to turn her loose with a coupla tons of Detroit V8. Many would be the imams who went to their virgins with a big tire track running lengthwise along their backs. spike From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Nov 27 06:47:15 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:47:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <200711251054.15650.mail@harveynewstrom.com> Message-ID: <02b701c830c1$fbfb2220$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Harvey writes > [One] side-effect of misleading propaganda is that our side gets > mislead also. Evidently propaganda isn't as bad as I thought. Consulting wikipedia one finds Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behaviour to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist. and also messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of\ large numbers of people. Instead of impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Thus *all* the pronouncements of candidates running for political office today can be deemed propaganda! And also, "propaganda" is evidently as old as language. To me, the word thereby loses some of its pejorative qualities. I think that what you'll agree that what we despise most are deliberate lies. The most effective propaganda is often completely truthful, but some propaganda presents facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis, But who knows? To the speaker, those particular facts may really seem to be the most relevant ones, which sometimes, indeed, may mystify the rest of us that he could really be looking at things that way. But here, tolerance is probably a good idea. Still, we do see deplorable instances in which arguments are enunciated by one party that deliberately---so far as we can see---do not address the strongest counter-arguments. (Ironically, I was once blamed on this list partly *because* I anticipated the strongest counter-arguments and attempted to deal with them ahead of time, which some evidently thought to be against the rules of fair-play!) > So while it might be a moral boost for us and a psychological > attack on the enemy to exaggerate our capabilities, it also > will lead the public and congress to cut funding because they > don't think we need to develop any further technology if we are > so advanced. Yes, heh heh! Not something that the proponents envisioned! > I think all such lies come back to bite the liar politically, and > also mislead our own side into wasting resources due to > inaccurate information. Alas, if that were only true. Unfortunately, the scoundrels very often completely get away with it. The demonization of Germany in World War I, and the deceit about what the Lusitania was really carrying served the perpetrators admirably. But I'm at a loss, personally. Suppose---to take a hopefully entertaining but extreme example---that a number of us Extropians are at a conference when civilization ends, we band together for survival, and a neighboring group commits atrocities against us, killing several of our beloved members. So several prominent Extropians get up and start telling lies about exactly how evil and how insidious the neighboring tribe is, which puts me in a quandry. On the one hand, I wish to give our community my full and entire support, and I definitely back even the most extreme measures that it seems to me we have to take (short of killing every last man, woman, and child of the neighboring tribe). So when this happens, I usually just shut up, and hope that I can perhaps exert a moderating influence later. What would others do in my position? >> Of parallel interest: Do enemies gain an advantage when >> you refrain from hating them but they freely indulge in >> hating you? Is there any place for hate in Extropianism? >> [Is it Extropian to hate?] (Incidentally, I should explain the strange sounding question. Back in 1960 in the progressive liberal Methodist Sunday School I attended, they taught us that "it is Christian to doubt", evidently anticipating that a lot of us little kids were going to start being skeptical. The phraseology always intrigued me.) > I don't think so. The sheer brute strength that anger brings only really > helps in physical combat. Where brains, planning, strategy, and logical > thinking are required (as in modern warfare), such emotions only cloud the > process rather than enhance it. Yeah, maybe so. I succumb to a sort of elitism when I worry that *other people* won't see as clearly as I do that an enemy must be neutralized or destroyed, and so I rarely demur at the hate-speech coming from my side (think again about a neighboring tribe having ambushed and killed Spike, Samantha, Eugen, Natasha, and Max, and whether you'd get up and say "Uh, actually the neighboring tribe is not necessarily evil, nor are they "bastards" in any real way.") I feel like I'm living in 1984. As a part of the modern West, I no longer even have a vocabulary to villify those I would hate. To say they're "diabolical", "evil", "wicked", "scurrilous", etc., is to sound faintly comical. Some people on this list try to solve the problem by profanity ("the prick", "the fuckers", etc.). > An example would be the current fad of calling terrorists > "cowards". This is merely an insulting phrase used to show > our vehemence against them. Yes! A perfect example. Anyone who loves the truth, or even finds it very useful, must cringe at that. But woe is me--- while right now in America we all seem safe and sound for the nonce, with plenty to eat and plenty of entertainment, and we can criticize such foolish statements without restraint, what would I say if some Extropians characterized the murderers of Spike, Samantha, etc., as cowards (even though it had taken a lot of guts to lie in ambush in that ravine all that time)? > the hijackers are on a suicide mission, this plan is totally useless. A > simple assumption that the hijackers are cowards totally misleads the > security analysis of the situation. Likewise, I think all hatred or emotions > cloud the thinking of such planning. Yes, but I'm sure you agree that it's more than that. We do *not* want to build on a foundation of lies, no matter how practicable it might seem at the time. No matter how well lies served the ancient Hebrews when writing about Yahweh, and ancient Christians when writing about Christ. >> My own tentative answer to the first question is, "A person---or >> his or her civilization---maximizes effectiveness by alternating between >> truth-mode and partisan-mode", where the latter gives full vent >> to hatred of evil. > > Can you give any examples of this? I base all my security work on truth, and > would never resort to emotionalism, jingoism, or propoganda to achieve my > goals. I even cringe at the concept of advertising and meme-engineering, > because it so often strays from truth-mode. I believe partisan-mode works in > the short term because people don't think. Yes, here is an example (although my post above is already riddled with some!). By "partisan-mode", I certainly DID NOT MEAN stooping to lies, and actually, not even to propaganda. I meant only strongly and completely adamantly advising a course of action. "Carthage has cultivated a great deal of support around the western sea, and has engendered much hostility against us" is in truth-mode. "Cartago deleda est" is in partisan-mode. It's in partisan mode because it doesn't contain statements that can be evaluated to be true or false. Likewise when I wrote above "dreadful instances in which arguments are enunciated by one party that deliberately..." I was wandering into partisan mode, as is clear from the use of "deplorable". And when I wrote "the scoundrels completely get away with it" and "we despise... deliberate lies." it's obvious that I'm taking sides. Yes, you should not resort to emotionalism, jingoism, or propaganda to achieve your goals. I sincerely approve of your restraint (truth-mode by Lee) and I submit that its unworthy of us and repulsive & degrading as well (partisan-mode by Lee). > I even cringe at the concept of advertising and meme-engineering, > because it so often strays from truth-mode. Well said, and I totally agree. > Also, do you see a resentment factor by the populace when they realize they > have been manipulated or mislead into supporting a cause based on > partisanship rather than truth? Isn't there a backlash effect when this > occurs, such that there is more (or at least some) damage later due to the > partisanship that would not have occurred with truth-mode? As I said, sometimes the perpetrators entirely get away with it. And sometimes they're exposed. >> My answer to the second question is this: "To remain analytical >> towards criminals and towards wrongdoing is itself criminal and >> wrong", (even though western civilzation in its descent to selfdestruction >> often, sadly, deems this attitude self-righteous and atavistic.) > > I'm not sure I understand what this means. Are you saying we shouldn't be > analytical towards criminals? No, I'm not saying that. > Or are you saying we shouldn't be *only* analytical at the expense of > other responses? Yes. A good example is how we punish them. Unfortunately, it is done only in truth-mode: "The defendant has been found guilty, and the penalty for breaking the law in this particular case I deem to be ten years of confinement at a state prison (etc.)." The problem with this is that it is entirely bloodless. Here is how it should be done: The defendent, who has been found guilty, is brought once more to the courtroom. A video *truthfully* re-enacts his crime, using the best and most modern techniques, hopefully bringing the audience to a fever pitch of anger and hatred towards the defendent. We get to see in full detail the horror of how he laid in wait for the prostitute and then brutally strangled her ignoring her pitiful cries and pleas, and we get to see the expression on her mother's face when she learns of her daughter's death. If done properly, we the viewers are rightfully and justly brought to hate the defendent. Only then is the sentence read, and only then can justice truly be served. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Nov 27 06:51:55 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:51:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Changing the Subject Line References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com><200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711251535.lAPFZ6j74725@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <02cc01c830c2$b787d420$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> David writes > I used to always change the subject line, for truth in advertising. I > still do, much of the time, but I've found that a typical posting of > mine is more likely to generate a reply if it is in a pre-existing > thread. That could be read as about my reputation, but I think it's > just a facet of established marketing and meme principles. So it's a choice between being effective and being truthful. We all have to make our choices, I guess. Is it more important to generate a reply, or more important to state exactly what you believe the truth to be? Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Nov 27 07:12:58 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:12:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness References: <200711270406.lAR46l4T011391@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <02da01c830c5$9f527150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Keith writes > The problem here is "hatred of evil." We of the west consider it evil > to flog a woman for being raped, while fundamental Islamics consider > women driving cars to be evil. Well, so that sounds like it's settled. Some people think it's okay, and some don't, and that's that. (Oddly, there is debate *within* Islam, however. In one Indian village there is disagreement over whether a woman who has committed adultery should be publically stoned to death, or merely privately strangled.) Nope, we can't say that this is "evil" because it sounds funny, archaic, and self-righteous. Likewise, what they do about female adultery cannot be said to be "wicked" or "diabolic". So I'm left to say that their actions are reprehensible---but how long will it be before even that is perceived to be not in truth-mode, and becomes unutterable? We *must* find ways to in no uncertain terms condemn barbarism. But words desert me, as we've emasculated our ability to express outrage. I would like to go back to Keith's posts where he described how he was treated in prison. Perhaps it was entirely in truth- mode. That's a pity, because the intolerable and unacceptable treatment he received needs to be castigated. But we have no words left. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Nov 27 07:39:45 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:39:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Envy by Helmut Shoeck References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <006801c82f8e$18afe020$3e893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <033d01c830c9$40ff1dc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Dan writes > [Lee wrote] > >> Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject >> line. It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more >> important things to think about and to work on than futzing >> with such details." As Keith has remarked, so much we >> do is really about status. > > This reminds me of that book by Helmut Shoeck -- _Envy_. > Has anyone here read it? Yes, we had a bit of discussion about it in October 2006 under the inappropriate subject line "Humor: evil eye" (my fault). > Reading it, a few years ago, I started to pick up on envy > in other people's and my behavior. (Or maybe the truth is, I'm reading > the book into my life rather than finding firming evidence.:) I wrote back in October 2006: I think that the author of a book I'm reading, "Envy" by Helmut Shoeck, is onto something: There is an ongoing unconscious conspiracy to ignore the role of envy in human affairs and as an explanation for much of human conduct. I attribute this mainly to the reluctance by anthropologists and other sensitive people to criticize primitive societies, in which envy plays such an overpowering role. I would now also add that recognition of the role of envy also implicitly criticizes many of the poor, and we can't have that. Lee From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Nov 27 08:37:09 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:37:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness In-Reply-To: <02da01c830c5$9f527150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <200711270406.lAR46l4T011391@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <02da01c830c5$9f527150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <1196152604_9200@S1.cableone.net> At 12:12 AM 11/27/2007, you wrote: >Keith writes > > > The problem here is "hatred of evil." We of the west consider it evil > > to flog a woman for being raped, while fundamental Islamics consider > > women driving cars to be evil. > >Well, so that sounds like it's settled. > >Some people think it's okay, and some don't, and that's that. Not exactly. I think there is a link between treating women badly and high population growth. In the old days before all these neat force multipliers like machine guns, the group with the higher population (as a result of growth) would invade and that would be the end of the low growth neighbors. Now the number of warriors you have "jumping up and down and yelling kill, kill!" isn't as important as the folks back home stuffing atoms in bombs, or growing bio tech weapons. If this is correct, come the next war, a lot of xxx xxxxx who treated women badly will die. Perhaps a billion of them (and the women too). >(Oddly, there is debate *within* Islam, however. In one Indian >village there is disagreement over whether a woman who has >committed adultery should be publically stoned to death, or >merely privately strangled.) > >Nope, we can't say that this is "evil" because it sounds funny, >archaic, and self-righteous. Likewise, what they do about >female adultery cannot be said to be "wicked" or "diabolic". >So I'm left to say that their actions are reprehensible---but >how long will it be before even that is perceived to be not >in truth-mode, and becomes unutterable? > >We *must* find ways to in no uncertain terms condemn >barbarism. But words desert me, as we've emasculated >our ability to express outrage. Sure we can condemn barbarism. Right up to the point we are attacked or xenophobic memes have built up as a result of seeing a bleak future. Then the gene constructed mechanisms most of us would deny having take over. The western Europe genetic stock has a *long* history of being the best, the most barbaric in wars. We haven't lost it. Consider Dresden or how WW II ended. Coupled with extreme high tech . . . . What conditions would it take (for example) for the immigrant Islamic populations in Europe to be slaughtered like the Tutsi? Don't tell me it can't happen to a minority group in Europe because *it did.* >I would like to go back to Keith's posts where he described >how he was treated in prison. Perhaps it was entirely in truth- >mode. That's a pity, because the intolerable and unacceptable >treatment he received needs to be castigated. But we have >no words left. You don't need words. Consider lead shorts instead. I posted conceptual designs I created while locked up that *might* reduced the technical problems of making "devices" to the point you could get nuke wars between the Crips and the Bloods. I am a product of evolution just like you. And I am still viciously angry at all the levels of government that were corrupted by (something I can't name). Don't tell me it was a bad idea, you should expect irrational behavior by people in such a state. The worse case consequences could be really bad. If they were done by certain groups, those groups could very well be expunged. I doubt anyone would want to read such bile, but as a literary device in a story I am working on the President makes such an awful decision. Afterwards he takes a drug to wipe out his memory of having done so. Keith From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 27 13:28:00 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:28:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Changing the Subject Line In-Reply-To: <02cc01c830c2$b787d420$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com> <200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com> <200711251535.lAPFZ6j74725@unreasonable.com> <02cc01c830c2$b787d420$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <200711271328.lARDSRj56830@unreasonable.com> Lee wrote: >So it's a choice between being effective and being truthful. > >We all have to make our choices, I guess. Is it more important to >generate a reply, or more important to state exactly what you >believe the truth to be? and he wrote earlier: >An interesting question to me has always been "how effective in >changing the world can one be by >remaining purely in truth mode?". According to my father, but not to my mother, my grandfather was pathologically honest. "Do you like this dress?" "No." "Do you think she's pretty?" "Yes." "Is she prettier than I am?" "Yes." At some point, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is counter-productive. Also, as we all know but I certainly forget, only a fraction of a message is carried by the words per se. The above questions are about meta-issues, like "Do you love me?" and to answer the question as written is to answer "No, I don't." Also, "propaganda", "marketing", and "spin" have pejorative connotations. But your speech acts serve not just to convey information but to evoke a response -- directions to the restaurant, a job offer, changing someone's opinion. Frank Luntz and George Lakoff are right -- the words used to describe your and opposing positions can dramatically influence the outcome. Cryonics is denigrated and ridiculed. Its opponents refer to "cheating death" and depict you as selfish; Jay Leno makes jokes about Ted Williams. On the other hand is the brilliant analogy -- I forget whose it was: An ambulance is a technology that takes a patient to a place with better medical facilities for treatment. Think of cryonics as an ambulance, taking a patient to a time with better medical facilities for treatment. Whether either framing is in partisan mode or truth mode depends on facts not in evidence. Is there a truth-mode way to discuss abortion? "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are brilliant frames, that do each capture an essential truth, but also only convey a slice of the full issue. And are deceitful in their own right, even within the confines of abortion. ("Pro-life" ignores the anti-life aspect of involuntary servitude in requiring a pregnant woman to carry a child to term; "pro-choice" ignores the anti-choice aspect of giving no say to the father or the potential child.) Also, does truth mode imply dispassionate? Does partisan mode imply emotional? -- David. From randall at randallsquared.com Tue Nov 27 18:54:51 2007 From: randall at randallsquared.com (Randall Randall) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:54:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Tenet, was Regarding Wickedness In-Reply-To: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200711251803.lAPI3BKP003460@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <293A8733-CFE6-4BB0-A454-18687E06B151@randallsquared.com> On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:36 PM, spike wrote: > If Tenet didn't know for sure, how > could anyone below him? I don't understand your question. How could Tenet know *anything* that someone below him did not know, assuming his knowledge came from actual intel- gathering folk? My assumption would be that Tenet's organization would have known many, many things Tenet didn't know, since they tell him things, not the reverse. -- Randall Randall "Everything's stolen these days. The fax machine is just a waffle iron with a phone attached. " - Jamie McCarthy From randall at randallsquared.com Tue Nov 27 18:38:23 2007 From: randall at randallsquared.com (Randall Randall) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> On Nov 24, 2007, at 4:09 PM, hkhenson wrote: > At 06:23 AM 11/24/2007, David wrote: >> To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them >> to one involving two or three people. > > That's not entirely legit. Very small numbers of people invoke > different mental modules than larger ones. See "The Nurture > Assumption" for a discussion of relations vs groups. Unless you're suggesting that our intuitions about very small numbers of people are less likely to be reasonable, it seems that such reasoning extended to large groups (about what "should" be) would be *more* legitimate, for exactly that reason. If someone's taken a nasty knock to the head and is confused, hitting yourself in the head before thinking about his situation is not likely to make you more able to figure out what he should do. -- Randall Randall "In just the past few centuries, and primarily in only one or two parts of the world, we suddenly develop medical science, cars, telephones, airplanes, refrigeration, central heating, electrical power, computers, and spaceships. Why here? And why now?" From pjmanney at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 19:49:12 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:49:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Newsweek: The Future of Reading Message-ID: <29666bf30711271149oe68467dp9b2a4b2d735fcfb5@mail.gmail.com> I'm sure you all know about Amazon's release of the Kindle, but this article is a better than usual puff piece that uses the Kindle to re-examine e-publishing. In the second article, "Can It Kindle the Imagination?" Newsweek gave the Kindle a pretty good review as a substantial improvement in the technology. Its biggest gripe was its copy protection issues and the price. Based on the review, I'd have to try one out and love it before I invested $400, but I suspect I'll wait for the inevitably improved and cheaper version(s). I have no need to be an early adopter -- I'm doing the same with the iPhone. ;-) PJ URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/70983 The Future of Reading Amazon's Jeff Bezos already built a better bookstore. Now he believes he can improve upon one of humankind's most divine creations: the book itself. By Steven Levy NEWSWEEK Updated: 12:53 PM ET Nov 17, 2007 "Technology," computer pioneer Alan Kay once said, "is anything that was invented after you were born." So it's not surprising, when making mental lists of the most whiz-bangy technological creations in our lives, that we may overlook an object that is superbly designed, wickedly functional, infinitely useful and beloved more passionately than any gadget in a Best Buy: the book. It is a more reliable storage device than a hard disk drive, and it sports a killer user interface. (No instruction manual or "For Dummies" guide needed.) And, it is instant-on and requires no batteries. Many people think it is so perfect an invention that it can't be improved upon, and react with indignation at any implication to the contrary. "The book," says Jeff Bezos, 43, the CEO of Internet commerce giant Amazon.com, "just turns out to be an incredible device." Then he uncorks one of his trademark laughs. Books have been very good to Jeff Bezos. When he sought to make his mark in the nascent days of the Web, he chose to open an online store for books, a decision that led to billionaire status for him, dotcom glory for his company and countless hours wasted by authors checking their Amazon sales ratings. But as much as Bezos loves books professionally and personally?he's a big reader, and his wife is a novelist?he also understands that the surge of technology will engulf all media. "Books are the last bastion of analog," he says, in a conference room overlooking the Seattle skyline. We're in the former VA hospital that is the physical headquarters for the world's largest virtual store. "Music and video have been digital for a long time, and short-form reading has been digitized, beginning with the early Web. But long-form reading really hasn't." Yet. This week Bezos is releasing the Amazon Kindle, an electronic device that he hopes will leapfrog over previous attempts at e-readers and become the turning point in a transformation toward Book 2.0. That's shorthand for a revolution (already in progress) that will change the way readers read, writers write and publishers publish. The Kindle represents a milestone in a time of transition, when a challenged publishing industry is competing with television, Guitar Hero and time burned on the BlackBerry; literary critics are bemoaning a possible demise of print culture, and Norman Mailer's recent death underlined the dearth of novelists who cast giant shadows. On the other hand, there are vibrant pockets of book lovers on the Internet who are waiting for a chance to refurbish the dusty halls of literacy. As well placed as Amazon was to jump into this scrum and maybe move things forward, it was not something the company took lightly. After all, this is the book we're talking about. "If you're going to do something like this, you have to be as good as the book in a lot of respects," says Bezos. "But we also have to look for things that ordinary books can't do." Bounding to a whiteboard in the conference room, he ticks off a number of attributes that a book-reading device?yet another computer-powered gadget in an ever more crowded backpack full of them?must have. First, it must project an aura of bookishness; it should be less of a whizzy gizmo than an austere vessel of culture. Therefore the Kindle (named to evoke the crackling ignition of knowledge) has the dimensions of a paperback, with a tapering of its width that emulates the bulge toward a book's binding. It weighs but 10.3 ounces, and unlike a laptop computer it does not run hot or make intrusive beeps. A reading device must be sharp and durable, Bezos says, and with the use of E Ink, a breakthrough technology of several years ago that mimes the clarity of a printed book, the Kindle's six-inch screen posts readable pages. The battery has to last for a while, he adds, since there's nothing sadder than a book you can't read because of electile dysfunction. (The Kindle gets as many as 30 hours of reading on a charge, and recharges in two hours.) And, to soothe the anxieties of print-culture stalwarts, in sleep mode the Kindle displays retro images of ancient texts, early printing presses and beloved authors like Emily Dickinson and Jane Austen. But then comes the features that your mom's copy of "Gone With the Wind" can't match. E-book devices like the Kindle allow you to change the font size: aging baby boomers will appreciate that every book can instantly be a large-type edition. The handheld device can also hold several shelves' worth of books: 200 of them onboard, hundreds more on a memory card and a limitless amount in virtual library stacks maintained by Amazon. Also, the Kindle allows you to search within the book for a phrase or name. Some of those features have been available on previous e-book devices, notably the Sony Reader. The Kindle's real breakthrough springs from a feature that its predecessors never offered: wireless connectivity, via a system called Whispernet. (It's based on the EVDO broadband service offered by cell-phone carriers, allowing it to work anywhere, not just Wi-Fi hotspots.) As a result, says Bezos, "This isn't a device, it's a service." Specifically, it's an extension of the familiar Amazon store (where, of course, Kindles will be sold). Amazon has designed the Kindle to operate totally independent of a computer: you can use it to go to the store, browse for books, check out your personalized recommendations, and read reader reviews and post new ones, tapping out the words on a thumb-friendly keyboard. Buying a book with a Kindle is a one-touch process. And once you buy, the Kindle does its neatest trick: it downloads the book and installs it in your library, ready to be devoured. "The vision is that you should be able to get any book?not just any book in print, but any book that's ever been in print?on this device in less than a minute," says Bezos. Amazon has worked hard to get publishers to step up efforts to release digital versions of new books and backlists, and more than 88,000 will be on sale at the Kindle store on launch. (Though Bezos won't get terribly specific, Amazon itself is also involved in scanning books, many of which it captured as part of its groundbreaking Search Inside the Book program. But most are done by the publishers themselves, at a cost of about $200 for each book converted to digital. New titles routinely go through the process, but many backlist titles are still waiting. "It's a real chokepoint," says Penguin CEO David Shanks.) Amazon prices Kindle editions of New York Times best sellers and new releases in hardback at $9.99. The first chapter of almost any book is available as a free sample. The Kindle is not just for books. Via the Amazon store, you can subscribe to newspapers (the Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Le Monde) and magazines (The Atlantic). When issues go to press, the virtual publications are automatically beamed into your Kindle. (It's much closer to a virtual newsboy tossing the publication on your doorstep than accessing the contents a piece at a time on the Web.) You can also subscribe to selected blogs, which cost either 99 cents or $1.99 a month per blog. In addition, the Kindle can venture out on the Web itself?to look up things in Wikipedia, search via Google or follow links from blogs and other Web pages. You can jot down a gloss on the page of the book you're reading, or capture passages with an electronic version of a highlight pen. And if you or a friend sends a word document or PDF file to your private Kindle e-mail address, it appears in your Kindle library, just as a book does. Though Bezos is reluctant to make the comparison, Amazon believes it has created the iPod of reading. The Kindle, shipping as you read this, costs $399. When Bezos announces that price at the launch this week, he will probably get the same raised-eyebrow reaction Steve Jobs got in October 2001, when he announced that Apple would charge that same price for its pocket-size digital music player. No way around it: it's pricey. But if all goes well for Amazon, several years from now we'll see revamped Kindles, equipped with color screens and other features, selling for much less. And physical bookstores, like the shuttered Tower Records of today, will be lonelier places, as digital reading thrusts us into an exciting?and jarring?post-Gutenberg era. Will the Kindle and its kin really take on a technology that's shone for centuries and is considered the bedrock of our civilization? The death of the book?or, more broadly, the death of print?has been bandied about for well over a decade now. Sven Birkerts, in "The Gutenberg Elegies" (1994), took a peek at the future and concluded, "What the writer writes, how he writes and gets edited, printed and sold, and then read?all the old assumptions are under siege." Such pronouncements were invariably answered with protestations from hard-liners who insisted that nothing could supplant those seemingly perfect objects that perch on our night tables and furnish our rooms. Computers may have taken over every other stage of the process?the tools of research, composition and production?but that final mile of the process, where the reader mind-melds with the author in an exquisite asynchronous tango, would always be sacrosanct, said the holdouts. In 1994, for instance, fiction writer Annie Proulx was quoted as saying, "Nobody is going to sit down and read a novel on a twitchy little screen. Ever." Oh, Annie. In 2007, screens are ubiquitous (and less twitchy), and people have been reading everything on them?documents, newspaper stories, magazine articles, blogs?as well as, yes, novels. Not just on big screens, either. A company called DailyLit this year began sending out books?new ones licensed from publishers and classics from authors like Jane Austen?straight to your e-mail IN BOX, in 1000-work chunks. (I've been reading Boswell's "Life of Johnson" on my iPhone, a device that is expected to be a major outlet for e-books in the coming months.) And recently a columnist for the Chicago Tribune waxed rhapsodically about reading Jane Austen on his BlackBerry. But taking on the tome directly is the challenge for handheld, dedicated reading devices, of which the Kindle is only the newest and most credible effort. An early contender was the 22-ounce Rocket eBook (its inventors went on to create the electric-powered Tesla roadster). There were also efforts to distribute e-books by way of CD-ROMs. But the big push for e-books in the early 2000s fizzled. "The hardware was not consumer-friendly and it was difficult to find, buy and read e-books," says Carolyn Reidy, the president of Simon & Schuster. This decade's major breakthrough has been the introduction of E Ink, whose creators came out of the MIT Media Lab. Working sort of like an Etch A Sketch, it forms letters by rearranging chemicals under the surface of the screen, making a page that looks a lot like a printed one. The first major implementation of E Ink was the $299 Sony Reader, launched in 2006 and heavily promoted. Sony won't divulge sales figures, but business director Bob Nell says the Reader has exceeded the company's expectations, and earlier this fall Sony introduced a sleeker second-generation model, the 505. (The Reader has no wireless?you must download on your computer and then move it to the device? and doesn't enable searching within a book.) Now comes the Kindle, which Amazon began building in 2004, and Bezos understands that for all of its attributes, if one aspect of the physical book is not adequately duplicated, the entire effort will be for naught. "The key feature of a book is that it disappears," he says. While those who take fetishlike pleasure in physical books may resist the notion, that vanishing act is what makes electronic reading devices into viable competitors to the printed page: a subsuming connection to the author that is really the basis of our book passion. "I've actually asked myself, 'Why do I love these physical objects?' " says Bezos. " 'Why do I love the smell of glue and ink?' The answer is that I associate that smell with all those worlds I have been transported to. What we love is the words and ideas." Long before there was cyberspace, books led us to a magical nether-zone. "Books are all the dreams we would most like to have, and like dreams they have the power to change consciousness," wrote Victor Nell in a 1988 tome called "Lost in a Book." Nell coined a name for that trancelike state that heavy readers enter when consuming books for pleasure?"ludic reading" (from the Latin ludo, meaning "I play"). Annie Proulx's claim was that an electronic device would never create that hypnotic state. But technologists are disproving that. Bill Hill, Microsoft's point person on e-reading, has delved deep into the mysteries of this lost zone, in an epic quest to best emulate the conditions on a computer. He attempted to frame a "General Theory of Readability," which would demystify the mysteries of ludic reading and why books could uniquely draw you into a rabbit hole of absorption. "There's 550 years of technological development in the book, and it's all designed to work with the four to five inches from the front of the eye to the part of the brain that does the processing [of the symbols on the page]," says Hill, a boisterous man who wears a kilt to a seafood restaurant in Seattle where he stages an impromptu lecture on his theory. "This is a high-resolution scanning machine," he says, pointing to the front of his head. "It scans five targets a second, and moves between targets in only 20 milliseconds. And it does this repeatedly for hours and hours and hours." He outlines the centuries-long process of optimizing the book to accommodate this physiological marvel: the form factor, leading, fonts, justification ? "We have to take the same care for the screen as we've taken for print." Hill insists?not surprisingly, considering his employer?that the ideal reading technology is not necessarily a dedicated e-reading device, but the screens we currently use, optimized for that function. (He's read six volumes of Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" on a Dell Pocket PC.) "The Internet Explorer is not a browser?it's a reader," he says. "People spend about 20 percent of the time browsing for information and 80 percent reading or consuming it. The transition has already happened. And we haven't noticed." But even Hill acknowledges that reading on a televisionlike screen a desktop away is not the ideal experience. Over the centuries, the sweet spot has been identified: something you hold in your hand, something you can curl up with in bed. Devices like the Kindle, with its 167 dot-per-inch E Ink display, with type set in a serif font called Caecilia, can subsume consciousness in the same way a physical book does. It can take you down the rabbit hole. Though the Kindle is at heart a reading machine made by a bookseller?and works most impressively when you are buying a book or reading it?it is also something more: a perpetually connected Internet device. A few twitches of the fingers and that zoned-in connection between your mind and an author's machinations can be interrupted?or enhanced?by an avalanche of data. Therein lies the disruptive nature of the Amazon Kindle. It's the first "always-on" book. What kinds of things will happen when books are persistently connected, and more-evolved successors of the Kindle become commonplace? First of all, it could transform the discovery process for readers. "The problem with books isn't print or writing," says Chris Anderson, author of "The Long Tail." "It's that not enough people are reading." (A 2004 National Endowment for the Arts study reported that only 57 percent of adults read a book?any book?in a year. That was down from 61 percent a decade ago.) His hope is that connected books will either link to other books or allow communities of readers to suggest undiscovered gems. The connectivity also affects the publishing business model, giving some hope to an industry that slogs along with single-digit revenue growth while videogame revenues are skyrocketing. "Stuff doesn't need to go out of print," says Bezos. "It could shorten publishing cycles." And it could alter pricing. Readers have long complained that new books cost too much; the $9.99 charge for new releases and best sellers is Amazon's answer. (You can also get classics for a song: I downloaded "Bleak House" for $1.99.) Bezos explains that it's only fair to charge less for e-books because you can't give them as gifts, and due to restrictive antipiracy software, you can't lend them out or resell them. (Libraries, though, have developed lending procedures for previous versions of e-books?like the tape in "Mission: Impossible," they evaporate after the loan period?and Bezos says that he's open to the idea of eventually doing that with the Kindle.) Publishers are resisting the idea of charging less for e-books. "I'm not going along with it," says Penguin's David Shanks of Amazon's low price for best sellers. (He seemed startled when I told him that the Alan Greenspan book he publishes is for sale at that price, since he offered no special discount.) Amazon is clearly taking a loss on such books. But Bezos says that he can sustain this scheme indefinitely. "We have a lot of experience in low-margin and high-volume sale?you just have to make sure the mix [between discounted and higher-priced items] works." Nonetheless the major publishers (all of whom are on the Kindle bandwagon) should loosen up. If you're about to get on a plane, you may buy the new Eric Clapton biography on a whim for $10?certainly for $5!?but if it costs more than $20, you may wind up scanning the magazine racks. For argument's sake, let's say cutting the price in half will double a book's sales?given that the royalty check would be the same, wouldn't an author prefer twice the number of readers? When I posed the question to best-selling novelist James Patterson, who was given an early look at the Kindle, he said that if the royalty fee were the same, he'd take the readers. (He's also a believer that the Kindle will succeed: "The baby boomers have a love affair with paper," he says. "But the next-gen people, in their 20s and below, do everything on a screen.") The model other media use to keep prices down, of course, is advertising. Though this doesn't seem to be in Kindle's plans, in some dotcom quarters people are brainstorming advertiser-supported books. "Today it doesn't make sense to put ads in books, because of the unpredictable timing and readership," says Bill McCoy, Adobe's general manager of e-publishing. "That changes with digital distribution." Another possible change: with connected books, the tether between the author and the book is still active after purchase. Errata can be corrected instantly. Updates, no problem?in fact, instead of buying a book in one discrete transaction, you could subscribe to a book, with the expectation that an author will continually add to it. This would be more suitable for nonfiction than novels, but it's also possible that a novelist might decide to rewrite an ending, or change something in the middle of the story. We could return to the era of Dickens-style serializations. With an always-on book, it's conceivable that an author could not only rework the narrative for future buyers, but he or she could reach inside people's libraries and make the change. (Let's also hope Amazon security is strong, so that we don't find one day that someone has hacked "Harry Potter" or "Madame Bovary.") Those are fairly tame developments, though, compared with the more profound changes that some are anticipating. In a connected book, the rabbit hole is no longer a one-way transmission from author to reader. For better or for worse, there's company coming. Talk to people who have thought about the future of books and there's a phrase you hear again and again. Readers will read in public. Writers will write in public. Readers, of course, are already enjoying a more prominent role in the literary community, taking star turns in blogs, online forums and Amazon reviews. This will only increase in the era of connected reading devices. "Book clubs could meet inside of a book," says Bob Stein, a pioneer of digital media who now heads the Institute for the Future of the Book, a foundation-funded organization based in his Brooklyn, N.Y., town house. Eventually, the idea goes, the community becomes part of the process itself. Stein sees larger implications for authors?some of them sobering for traditionalists. "Here's what I don't know," he says. "What happens to the idea of a writer going off to a quiet place, ingesting information and synthesizing that into 300 pages of content that's uniquely his?" His implication is that that intricate process may go the way of the leather bookmark, as the notion of author as authoritarian figure gives way to a Web 2.0 wisdom-of-the-crowds process. "The idea of authorship will change and become more of a process than a product," says Ben Vershbow, associate director of the institute. This is already happening on the Web. Instead of retreating to a cork-lined room to do their work, authors like Chris Anderson, John Battelle ("The Search") and NYU professor Mitchell Stephens (a book about religious belief, in progress) have written their books with the benefit of feedback and contributions from a community centered on their blogs. "The possibility of interaction will redefine authorship," says Peter Brantley, executive director of the Digital Library Federation, an association of libraries and institutions. Unlike some writing-in-public advocates, he doesn't spare the novelists. "Michael Chabon will have to rethink how he writes for this medium," he says. Brantley envisions wiki-style collaborations where the author, instead of being the sole authority, is a "superuser," the lead wolf of a creative pack. (Though it's hard to believe that lone storytellers won't always be toiling away in some Starbucks with the Wi-Fi turned off, emerging afterward with a narrative masterpiece.) All this becomes even headier when you consider that as the e-book reader is coming of age, there are huge initiatives underway to digitize entire libraries. Amazon, of course, is part of that movement (its Search Inside the Book project broke ground by providing the first opportunity for people to get search results from a corpus of hundreds of thousands of tomes). But as an unabashed bookseller, its goals are different from those of other players, such as Google?whose mission is collecting and organizing all the world's information?and that of the Open Content Alliance, a consortium that wants the world's books digitized in a totally nonproprietary manner. (The driving force behind the alliance, Brewster Kahle, made his fortune by selling his company to Amazon, but is unhappy with the digital-rights management on the Kindle: his choice of an e-book reader would be the dirt-cheap XO device designed by the One Laptop Per Child Foundation.) There are tricky, and potentially showstopping, legal hurdles to all this: notably a major copyright suit filed by a consortium of publishers, along with the Authors Guild, charging that Google is infringing by copying the contents of books it scans for its database. Nonetheless, the trend is definitely to create a back end of a massively connected library to supply future e-book devices with more content than a city full of libraries. As journalist Kevin Kelly wrote in a controversial New York Times Magazine article, the goal is to make "the entire works of humankind, from the beginning of recorded history, in all languages, available to all people, all the time." Google has already scanned a million books from its partner libraries like the University of Michigan and the New York Public Library, and they are available in its database. (Last week my wife searched for information about the first English edition of the journals of Pehr Kalm, a Swedish naturalist traveling in Colonial America. In less than two seconds, Google delivered the full text of the book, as published in 1771.) Paul LeClerc, CEO of the New York Public Library, says that he's involved in something called the Electronic Enlightenment, a scholarly project (born at the University of Oxford) to compile all the writings of and information about virtually every major figure of the Enlightenment. It includes all the annotated writings, correspondence and commentary about 3,800 18th-century writers like Jefferson, Voltaire and Rousseau, completely cross-linked and searchable?as if a small room in a library were compressed to a single living document. "How could you do that before?" he asks. Now imagine that for all books. "Reading becomes a community activity," writes Kelly. "Bookmarks can be shared with fellow readers. Marginalia can be broadcast ? In a very curious way, the universal library becomes one very, very, large single text: the world's only book." Google's people have thought about how this connectivity could actually affect how people read. Adam Smith, product director for Book Search, says the process is all about "getting rid of the idea that a book is a [closed] container." One of his colleagues, Dan Lansing, describes how it might work: "Say you are trying to learn more about the Middle East, and you start reading a book, which claims that something happened in a particular event in Lebanon in '81, where the author was using his view on what happened. But actually his view is not what [really] happened. There's newspaper clippings on the event, there are other people who have written about it who disagree with him, there are other perspectives. The fact that all of that is at your fingertips and you can connect it together completely changes the way you do scholarship, or deep investigation of a subject. You'll be able to get all the world's information, all the books that have been published, all the world's libraries." Jim Gerber, Google's content-partnerships director, suggests that it might be an interesting idea, for example, for someone on the liberal side of the fence to annotate an Ann Coulter book, providing refuting links for every contention that the critic thought was an inaccurate representation. That commentary, perhaps bolstered and updated by anyone who wants to chime in, could be woven into the book itself, if you chose to include it. (This would probably make Ann Coulter very happy, because you'd need to buy her book in order to view the litany of objections.) All these ideas are anathema to traditionalists. In May 2006, novelist John Updike, appalled at reading Kelly's article ("a pretty grisly scenario"), decided to speak for them. Addressing a convention of booksellers, he cited "the printed, bound and paid-for book" as an ideal, and worried that book readers and writers were "approaching the condition of holdouts, surly hermits who refuse to come out and play in the electric sunshine of the post-Gutenberg village." (Actually, studies show that heavy Internet users read many more books than do those not on the Net.) He declared that the "edges" of the traditional book should not be breached. In his view, the stiff boards that bound the pages were not just covers but ramparts, and like-minded people should "defend the fort." That fort will stand, of course, for a very long time. The awesome technology of original books?and our love for them?will keep them vital for many years to come. But nothing is forever. Microsoft's Bill Hill has a riff where he runs through the energy-wasting, resource-draining process of how we make books now. We chop down trees, transport them to plants, mash them into pulp, move the pulp to another factory to press into sheets, ship the sheets to a plant to put dirty marks on them, then cut the sheets and bind them and ship the thing around the world. "Do you really believe that we'll be doing that in 50 years?" he asks. The answer is probably not, and that's why the Kindle matters. "This is the most important thing we've ever done," says Jeff Bezos. "It's so ambitious to take something as highly evolved as the book and improve on it. And maybe even change the way people read." As long as the batteries are charged. URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/71251 Can It Kindle the Imagination? We read the fine print on Amazon's new gadget. By Steven Levy NEWSWEEK Updated: 9:21 AM ET Nov 19, 2007 Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos says that the Kindle may be the most important thing he's ever done. But how well does it work? As the first journalist to get his hands on the device, I found it fit my hands pretty well. It's comfortable to hold, and the huge NEXT PAGE and PREVIOUS PAGE buttons on the sides make it easy to keep reading at a steady pace. On the other hand, the prominence of those buttons makes it almost impossible to pick the Kindle up without inadvertently turning a virtual page. Navigation through the various features is via a novel system centered on a clickable "select wheel" that moves a silvery cursor up or down a slim bar, like an elevator moving through a shaft. It's dead simple to master, but a little slow. The real acid test was whether the Kindle was capable of transporting a reader into that trancelike zone where the world falls away. My suspicion, since I've had a Sony Reader (which uses the identical E Ink technology), was that it would, and I was right. I read a Dan Silva thriller, Richard Russo's new novel and Eric Clapton's unsatisfying memoir, and didn't feel I was missing anything that I would have gotten in a "real" book. It's also exciting to get a daily dose of The New York Times and other papers. But the interface for newspaper reading is disappointing?you have to painstakingly go through article lists, and often the stories are insufficiently described. Still, getting the Times in one burst on a daily basis, no matter where you are, is closer to getting a hard-copy delivery than picking out articles on the Web, and it costs $13.99 a month, compared with the $50-plus I pay for home delivery. Do the math. The real innovation of the Kindle is connecting by its wireless Whispernet, which works well from pretty much everywhere. When you go to the Kindle store, you are greeted like an old friend, since your Kindle account is linked to your Amazon buying history and recommendations. Not every book I wanted was there (paging Philip Roth), but plenty were, and the $9.99 price for best sellers and new books makes purchases more attractive. The coolest thing you can do with a Kindle, hands down, is buying a book?just click BUY and, bang, you have the book in less than a minute. Though the copy protection doesn't affect book-reading, it is limiting, and annoying. You can't print out a passage, e-mail it to a friend or copy it into a document. You can't lend a book to someone, or sell it after you're finished. Searching?inside books, inside the device, in the store and on the Web?is speedy and easy. You can do Web browsing on a Kindle, but it doesn't display pages well. (No YouTube, as the device doesn't support animation.) I didn't scientifically test the battery life, but I found that when you're warned that you have only 20 percent of your power left, you should recharge immediately, because when it goes, it goes quickly, and there's nothing more frustrating than a device that plays dead. And yes, you can replace a battery, for about $20. The Kindle, mainly because it is not just a device but a well-designed cog in a coherent and useful service, is a high point so far in electronic reading. Deciding whether it's worth the $399 price tag is a classic early-adopter question: if history has any validity, you'll eventually be able to buy an improved version for less. But I'd say that any voluminous reader, particularly one who travels, would be delighted to receive a Kindle by the fireplace this holiday season. URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/71251 From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Nov 27 22:17:24 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:17:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> Message-ID: <1196201819_15893@S1.cableone.net> At 11:38 AM 11/27/2007, you wrote: >On Nov 24, 2007, at 4:09 PM, hkhenson wrote: > > At 06:23 AM 11/24/2007, David wrote: > >> To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them > >> to one involving two or three people. > > > > That's not entirely legit. Very small numbers of people invoke > > different mental modules than larger ones. See "The Nurture > > Assumption" for a discussion of relations vs groups. > >Unless you're suggesting that our intuitions about very small >numbers of people are less likely to be reasonable, it seems >that such reasoning extended to large groups (about what "should" >be) would be *more* legitimate, for exactly that reason. Relations involving two or maybe 3 people seem to invoke different parts of the brain. So you really can't simplify down to that size and then extrapolate back up to larger groups. Or rather, you can, but your extrapolations will be wrong. For example, you don't get mob behavior below some number of people. >If someone's taken a nasty knock to the head and is confused, >hitting yourself in the head before thinking about his situation >is not likely to make you more able to figure out what he should >do. ??? Keith From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 27 22:21:11 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:21:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Tenet, was Regarding Wickedness In-Reply-To: <293A8733-CFE6-4BB0-A454-18687E06B151@randallsquared.com> Message-ID: <200711272221.lARMLBio001694@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Randall Randall > Subject: Re: [ExI] Tenet, was Regarding Wickedness > > > On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:36 PM, spike wrote: > > > If Tenet didn't know for sure, how could anyone below him? > > I don't understand your question... Randall^2, the answer to your puzzlement is that Tenet's people are compartmentalized. The director's knowledge is a superset of the knowledge of any one of his Direct Reports or DRs. (The term DR does not refer to a paper or file, but rather a person. DRs are people who have no levels of management between themselves and the director, so they report directly to the boss. Tenet was a DR to Bush and also Bush's predecessor whose name escapes me at the moment, that NY senator's husband.) > How could Tenet know *anything* that > someone below him did not know, assuming > his knowledge came from actual intel- > gathering folk?... Randall Randall Tenet would know stuff from his other DRs that most of the intelligence gathering folk wouldn't know because they were intentionally excluded from that particular compartment. Compartmentalization prevents various investigating groups from contaminating each other with the same erroneous information. A common technique in a case where the evidence is ambiguous or contradictory is to assign two or more DRs to investigate, then see if their reports agree, or if one appears to be a superset of the other, or if one has better evidence, or if one can uncover evidence of another report having relied upon counterfeit evidence. Often they intentionally assign investigators with historically opposing partisan points of view, then the director studies the differences in their reports. This was initially suggested as a reason why the white house sent Joe Wilson to investigate Niger. Turns out it wasn't the reason. The white house didn't send Joe Wilson, anti-war partisans within the CIA did that. Didn't matter anyway: Wilson didn't write a report. Tenet mentions in his book that he was getting conflicting reports before the invasion, for he wsa getting layer upon layer of intentional obfuscation, conflicting reports from Iraqi expatriates, conflicting reports from CIA employees of middle eastern descent (which we learned last week included at least one mole), conflicting evidence which needed to be examined to discriminate the genuine from the bogus. He was getting reports from high ranking Iraqi defectors, the reliability of which was unknown. He was getting info from interrogation of captured (apparently Iraqi) terrorists, again with unknown reliability. >From all that, then director of central intelligence Tenet had to distill a message and present it to Bush, who also had other sources of intelligence on which Tenet was not briefed. Tenet reported to Bush the assessment that invading Iraq was a "slam dunk." It doesn't surprise me that Tenet and the others got it mostly wrong. >From the released interrogations, Saddam himself apparently didn't know for sure what weapon systems he had, how many and which would work, and which systems were in the hands of generals who had no intentions of using them in a hopeless cause. Of course Saddam didn't count on a mass defection of his entire army as soon as the shooting started, leaving ragtag bands of insurgents to fight the coalition forces. This would explain his often repeated Mother Of All Battles comments, which turned out to be less than the granddaughter of all skirmishes, where few Iraqi regulars put up a halfhearted defense of the Baghdad Airport, with predictable results. But that was pretty much it for the second Iraq war. Note that in Center of the Storm, Tenet does not suggest anywhere that he was pressured from above to find evidence supporting one conclusion or another, either by Bush or Bush's predecessor. I can't imagine Tenet pressuring his own DRs to find supporting evidence for a particular opinion, although that accusation is tossed about freely. If he had, there would be documentation for his having issued illegal orders. With the entire intelligence machine of the US reporting to him, Tenet bet his career that there were nukes in Iraq. He was wrong. He bet it all, he lost. Randall^2 check out Center of the Storm. It answers a lot of mysteries. spike From mail at harveynewstrom.com Wed Nov 28 00:23:42 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:23:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness In-Reply-To: <02b701c830c1$fbfb2220$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:47 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > > Evidently propaganda isn't as bad as I thought. Consulting > wikipedia one finds [....] > > Thus *all* the pronouncements of candidates running for political > office today can be deemed propaganda! Why would you think this diminishes my argument? This merely strengthens my resolve that propaganda is evil. The fact that politicians use it to get elected makes it more so! > But who knows? To the speaker, those particular facts may > really seem to be the most relevant ones, which sometimes, > indeed, may mystify the rest of us that he could really be > looking at things that way. But here, tolerance is probably > a good idea. This is another way of saying that propagandists start to believe their own lie. > But I'm at a loss, personally. Suppose---to take a hopefully > entertaining but extreme example---that a number of us > Extropians are at a conference when civilization ends, > we band together for survival, and a neighboring group > commits atrocities against us, killing several of our > beloved members. So several prominent Extropians > get up and start telling lies about exactly how evil and > how insidious the neighboring tribe is, which puts me > in a quandry. On the one hand, I wish to give our > community my full and entire support, and I definitely > back even the most extreme measures that it seems to > me we have to take (short of killing every last man, > woman, and child of the neighboring tribe). So when > this happens, I usually just shut up, and hope that I can > perhaps exert a moderating influence later. What would others > do in my position? I would denounce the lies and tell the truth about the murderers. I would want to take correct action based on all the facts. I would resist the dictators that want to fool the community into their action without allowing us all to choose for ourselves. I would resent that the leaders don't trust the rest of us to make a decision. I also would have to wonder what else they were lying about. I could never trust such people again, and would work to remove them from the community. I would see them as a secondary source of attack, not as a defense to the first attacks. > > I don't think so. The sheer brute strength that anger brings only > > really > > helps in physical combat. Where brains, planning, > strategy, and logical > > thinking are required (as in modern warfare), such emotions > only cloud the > > process rather than enhance it. > > Yeah, maybe so. I succumb to a sort of elitism when I worry > that *other people* won't see as clearly as I do that an > enemy must be neutralized or destroyed, and so I rarely demur > at the hate-speech coming from my side (think again about a > neighboring tribe having ambushed and killed Spike, Samantha, > Eugen, Natasha, and Max, and whether you'd get up and say > "Uh, actually the neighboring tribe is not necessarily evil, > nor are they "bastards" in any real way.") Nobody would say that. Killing Extropians is evil. Why not state that? I would have to assume that the people making up the lies about the opposing tribe must not really believe that this is evil enough, such that they have to invent further lies to add to the evil. It is almost like they are forgiving or forgetting the murders, and are moving onto some other topic of evil instead. > I feel like I'm living in 1984. As a part of the modern > West, I no longer even have a vocabulary to vilify those I > would hate. To say they're "diabolical", "evil", "wicked", > "scurrilous", etc., is to sound faintly comical. Some people > on this list try to solve the problem by profanity ("the > prick", "the fuckers", etc.). All of these words are content-free. They tell me how the speaker is reacting, but do not explain or denounce anything about the target. If we describe murderers or terrorists, I could understand the evil that was done. But calling someone names (like "Axis of Evil") does not convey any information to me, except that the speaker considers the targets to be evil, but refuses to elaborate why. They are literally telling me, "Trust me, they're evil, but I won't tell you why." > Yes, but I'm sure you agree that it's more than that. We > do *not* want to build on a foundation of lies, no matter > how practicable it might seem at the time. Agreed. But if the truth is sufficient, then truth-mode should be sufficient. Why would emotionalism or partisans be required to further the position? > > Or are you saying we shouldn't be *only* analytical at the > expense of > > other responses? > > Yes. A good example is how we punish them. Unfortunately, it > is done only in truth-mode: "The defendant has been found > guilty, and the penalty for breaking the law in this > particular case I deem to be > ten years of confinement at a state prison (etc.)." The problem with > this is that it is entirely bloodless. Here is how it > should be done: I believe it should be done only in truth-mode. I don't believe in punishment or "justice". It serves no purpose. I don't believe in deterrents (because they don't work). We should catch criminals to stop them, not punish them. Short sentences for criminals fail because they recommit crimes when they get out, not because they are not cruel enough to the prisoner. > The defendent, who has been found guilty, is brought once > more to the courtroom. A video *truthfully* re-enacts his > crime, using the best and most modern techniques, hopefully > bringing the > audience to a fever pitch of anger and hatred towards the > defendent. We get to see in full detail the horror of how he > laid in wait for the prostitute and then brutally strangled > her ignoring her pitiful cries and pleas, and we get to see > the expression on her mother's face when she learns of her > daughter's death. If done properly, we the viewers are > rightfully and justly brought to hate the defendent. Only > then is the sentence read, and only then can justice truly be served. This is a better recipe for a lynching rather than a court of law. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Nov 28 00:00:27 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:00:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1196201819_15893@S1.cableone.net> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> <1196201819_15893@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711280000.lAS00Lj05088@unreasonable.com> I wrote: > To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them > to one involving two or three people. Keith replied: >That's not entirely legit. Very small numbers of people invoke >different mental modules than larger ones. See "The Nurture >Assumption" for a discussion of relations vs groups. and then elaborated: >Relations involving two or maybe 3 people seem to invoke different >parts of the brain. So you really can't simplify down to that size >and then extrapolate back up to larger groups. Or rather, you can, >but your extrapolations will be wrong. For example, you don't get mob >behavior below some number of people. Apples and oranges. I'm talking about extrapolating ethics; you're talking about extrapolating behavior. I'm saying what ought to be; you're talking about what might happen instead. Or are you saying that the ethics could also change based on the numbers involved? Because, for instance, the factors to be considered are different, e.g., the existence or risk of mob behavior? -- David. From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Wed Nov 28 00:15:18 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:15:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] EDU: Studies / Departments Investingating Posthuman Message-ID: <380-220071132801518551@M2W003.mail2web.com> For those of you at universities, can you list the various university departments that cover human futures / posthuman / cyborg in the curriculum? (For example, Cultural Studies has a strong focus on feminist literature (Harraway, etc.)) Many thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From lcorbin at rawbw.com Wed Nov 28 03:10:19 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:10:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Honesty and Passion References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><200711251213.lAPCDvj64125@unreasonable.com><200711250828.19455.kanzure@gmail.com><200711251535.lAPFZ6j74725@unreasonable.com><02cc01c830c2$b787d420$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <200711271328.lARDSRj56830@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <036001c8316c$c015c3e0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> David writes > According to my father, but not to my mother, my grandfather was > pathologically honest. > > "Do you like this dress?" "No." > "Do you think she's pretty?" "Yes." > "Is she prettier than I am?" "Yes." > > At some point, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth > is counter-productive. I see where you are going; but I would disagree with this last way of putting it. (I guess it has the wrong meta-implication! :-) > Also, as we all know but I certainly forget, only a fraction of a > message is carried by the words per se. The above questions are about > meta-issues, like "Do you love me?" and to answer the question as > written is to answer "No, I don't." I agree. You ought to address the *real* question being asked, even if the asker is very guilty of er, what should I call it? ---awkward phrasing. Those of us who appreciate precision seem never to get used to this. I *still* have to suppress myself from giving a general description of my current health whenever someone says "How are you?" > Whether either framing is in partisan mode or truth mode depends on > facts not in evidence. Yes---I guess that "do you like my dress?" defies my intuitive feeling that any sentence may be analytically parsed to determine whether it's in truth mode or partisan mode. > Is there a truth-mode way to discuss abortion? "Pro-life" and > "pro-choice" are brilliant frames, that do each capture an essential > truth, but also only convey a slice of the full issue. > > And are deceitful in their own right, even within the confines of > abortion. ("Pro-life" ignores the anti-life aspect of involuntary > servitude in requiring a pregnant woman to carry a child to term; > "pro-choice" ignores the anti-choice aspect of giving no say to the > father or the potential child.) A key example, perhaps. Yes, I would have preferred more neutral language. > Also, does truth mode imply dispassionate? Imply dispassion? Not necessarily. The way that many people choose to remain in truth mode and yet get across their "passion" is to use the propaganda technique (at least that's what Wikipedia calls it!) of focusing on the more salient features of a phenomenon that can be easily calculated to manipulate feelings. For example, to make a statement against the Nazis, one need only quite matter- of-factly calculate the pounds of skin stripped off deathcamp inmates. I don't feel a need to be confined to that, unlike some people. Even though, like I said, I feel like I'm operating under "Newspeak", English is still very rich. I can call things reprehensible, abhorrent, atrocious, base, contemptible, deplorable, despicable, detestable, disgusting, heinous, hellish, horrible, loathsome, nauseating, obnoxious, odious, offensive, repellent, repugnant, repulsive, sleazey, stinking, or vile. (Of course I just "cheated" and called up a thesaurus entry.) > Does partisan mode imply emotional? Definitely. But there is *nothing* wrong with that. Quite the contrary. If children are to be spanked, it should be done when you are angry, not as (untruthfully) as if you were some kind of automaton. Lee From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 04:43:10 2007 From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Honesty and Passion In-Reply-To: <036001c8316c$c015c3e0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <810491.16488.qm@web56512.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Lee Corbin said: "I *still* have to suppress myself from giving a general description of my current health whenever someone says "How are you?" You mean there's a "right" way to answer that, that ISN'T a description of one's general health? - Anne --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 28 05:40:35 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:40:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Honesty and Passion In-Reply-To: <810491.16488.qm@web56512.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711280540.lAS5eYKP013888@andromeda.ziaspace.com> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anne Corwin Subject: Re: [ExI] Honesty and Passion Lee Corbin said: "I *still* have to suppress myself from giving a general description of my current health whenever someone says "How are you?" You mean there's a "right" way to answer that, that ISN'T a description of one's general health?? - Anne Anne, I get asked this a lot at the office because I am known as the incurable optimist, a human incarnation of Tigger. When anyone now says "How are you?" I respond with "I am extremely! How are you?" Often they too are extremely. {8^D spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 28 05:47:03 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 23:47:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Honesty and Passion In-Reply-To: <810491.16488.qm@web56512.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <036001c8316c$c015c3e0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <810491.16488.qm@web56512.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071127233839.02207c28@satx.rr.com> At 08:43 PM 11/27/2007 -0800, Anne wrote: >Lee Corbin said: "I *still* have to suppress myself from giving a >general description of my current health whenever someone says "How are you?" > >You mean there's a "right" way to answer that, that ISN'T a >description of one's general health? The English upper middle class (I gather) solve this by making the phrase entirely phatic. Person A extends a hand and says politely, without stress, "How do you do." Person B lightly shakes the proffered hand and replies "How do you do." No question marks or rising intonation, and certainly no medical or financial disclosures. In the States it seems to go like this: "How are you?" "Fine, how are you?" "Good, thank you. Now, you're probably wondering why I've gathered all of you here together today." (Pause for effect) "One of you is... a Bush supporter!" (Gasps of incredulous horror; one man faints) Damien Broderick From lcorbin at rawbw.com Wed Nov 28 06:57:07 2007 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:57:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness References: Message-ID: <038b01c8318c$46fb83d0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Harvey writes >> Evidently propaganda isn't as bad as I thought. Consulting >> wikipedia one finds [....] >> >> Thus *all* the pronouncements of candidates running for political >> office today can be deemed propaganda! > > Why would you think this diminishes my argument? Oops! Miscommunication alert! In no way was I suggesting that this diminished your argument. It was merely an aside that I believed would shed light on the discussion. > This merely strengthens my resolve that propaganda is evil. > The fact that politicians use it to get elected makes it more so! Okay, *now* I'll try to diminish your argument! :-) >> But who knows? To the speaker, those particular facts may >> really seem to be the most relevant ones, which sometimes, >> indeed, may mystify the rest of us that he could really be >> looking at things that way. But here, tolerance is probably >> a good idea. > > This is another way of saying that propagandists start to > believe their own lies. You seem to be way too brittle and inflexible here. I can imagine that someone with slightly different values from me and a whole lot of experience that differs from mine might really see salience where I see inconsequence, and see inconsequence where I see salience. Suppose that we follow the Wikipedia definition, and analyze one of Hilary Clinton's speeches. We will indeed, I contend, find all of the following: * "a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people." * "Instead of impartially providing information, [she will] present information in order to influence [her] audience." * "some propaganda presents facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis" * "gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented." But so what? Doesn't every politician do the same thing? We would find the same thing in all the speeches of the rest of the Republicans and Democrats (and Libertarians). Now, yes, you and I agree that it would be better if politicians today could get away with not giving loaded messages in order to produce an emotional response. But what about the other three starred characteristics? Question: how critical of the other three components of propaganda that I've listed here are you, and do you seriously hope that politicians of the future eschew them? What we were just talking about is starred item number 3: the selective presentation of facts. Again, I can easily imagine that fact X may honestly seem to you to be rather irrelevant whereas to me it might be of central importance, or vice-versa. >> But I'm at a loss, personally. Suppose---to take a hopefully >> entertaining but extreme example---that a number of us >> Extropians are at a conference when civilization ends, >> we band together for survival, and a neighboring group >> commits atrocities against us, killing several of our >> beloved members. So several prominent Extropians >> get up and start telling lies about exactly how evil and >> how insidious the neighboring tribe is, which puts me >> in a quandry. On the one hand, I wish to give our >> community my full and entire support, and I definitely >> back even the most extreme measures that it seems to >> me we have to take (short of killing every last man, >> woman, and child of the neighboring tribe). So when >> this happens, I usually just shut up, and hope that I can >> perhaps exert a moderating influence later. What would others >> do in my position? > > I would denounce the lies and tell the truth about the murderers. I would > want to take correct action based on all the facts. I would resist the > dictators that want to fool the community into their action without allowing > us all to choose for ourselves. I would resent that the leaders don't trust > the rest of us to make a decision. Interesting. Of course, I can imagine certain parameters to the above situation where I would agree with you, but in the generic case I've outlined, I would be more afraid that through excess internal denunciations and power struggles, we would end up insufficiently united to defeat and destroy the enemy. Shades of the current situation! Isn't it interesting that this rather close-to-home example seems to have disclosed the psychological differences between you and me that also speak to the current "war against terror" (or whatever some would prefer to call it)? > I also would have to wonder what else they were lying > about. Just because they exaggerated the vileness of our enemy? On the contrary, I would be prone to attribute this merely to them being blinded by anger. Now I would be pretty angry myself, of course, if Spike, Samantha, and Eugen were killed by the neighboring group. I fancy, though, that even as angry as I would be I would somehow keep myself from exaggerating. (E.g., calling them cowards.) But it seems rather normal, unfortunately, for people to speak in extremes and in black and white terms when very upset. It's interesting to me that you seem to have zero tolerance for this. > Killing Extropians is evil. Why not state that? Because it's not using truth mode, but rather is speaking in partisan mode? No, not exactly. It's because it's alluding to metaphysical qualities that do not exist. Sorry---but I just don't approve of semi-religious talk, when you come right down to it. (I did tend to give Bush and Reagan the benefit of doubt here, but only because it was so evidently disconcerting to our enemies to hear such blunt talk.) As I said, I would certainly not demur if someone said that the neighboring tribe was evil. When it was my turn to speak, I would denounce our enemies in the most acerbic terms I could, but it so happens that I would steer clear of words like "evil". (In fact, I started this thread openly wondering---and I'm still wondering---if we haven't harmed ourselves by tending to disallow such talk.) > I would have to assume that the people making up > the lies about the opposing tribe must not really believe > that this is evil enough, such that they have to invent > further lies to add to the evil. I do have to keep this possibility in mind. >> I feel like I'm living in 1984. As a part of the modern >> West, I no longer even have a vocabulary to vilify those I >> would hate. To say they're "diabolical", "evil", "wicked", >> "scurrilous", etc., is to sound faintly comical. Some people >> on this list try to solve the problem by profanity ("the >> prick", "the fuckers", etc.). > > All of these words are content-free. They tell me how the speaker is > reacting, but do not explain or denounce anything about the target. Well, *that* can be important. If someone gets up and says "they're evil" then the message I'm reading behind their words is that they're as ticked off as I am. So even though I don't let myself talk that way, I give them a pass. Moreover, as I say below, I think that it's important for us to all be sure that we hate the enemy when we set of to *solve* the problem. >> Yes, but I'm sure you agree that it's more than that. We >> do *not* want to build on a foundation of lies, no matter >> how practicable it might seem at the time. > > Agreed. But if the truth is sufficient, then truth-mode should be > sufficient. Why would emotionalism or partisans be required > to further the position? Well, because it's, uh, insufficiently partisan! You should be extremely angry (after, say, our enemy has killed those Extropians), and I'm sure you would be. It is necessary to *validate* that anger, and the anger of your listeners. Apparently you consider it factual that those who killed our Extropians (in my example) are evil, but yet you don't consider the regimes of North Korea, Iran, and the late Saddam Hussein to be evil. Why? Lee > But calling someone names (like "Axis of Evil") does not > convey any information to me, except that the speaker > considers the targets to be evil, but refuses to elaborate > why. They are literally telling me, "Trust me, > they're evil, but I won't tell you why." > ... > Nobody would say that. Killing Extropians is evil. > Why not state that? From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 15:09:38 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:09:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Honesty and Passion In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071127233839.02207c28@satx.rr.com> References: <036001c8316c$c015c3e0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> <810491.16488.qm@web56512.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071127233839.02207c28@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <62c14240711280709u6439cc73j20795a6bd8cda504@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 12:47 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > The English upper middle class (I gather) solve this by making the > phrase entirely phatic. Person A extends a hand and says politely, > without stress, "How do you do." Person B lightly shakes the > proffered hand and replies "How do you do." No question marks or > rising intonation, and certainly no medical or financial disclosures. perhaps implied, "How do you do [a greeting]" is (as you said) politely and according to the local custom, met with the expected example of the handshake and the phrase is returned. The variants of "acceptable" handshake across cultures or even from person to person is both subtle and revealing. If the grasp is too weak or to strong, your expectation is probably set for the rest of your meeting with that individual. This custom is a ritualized form of physical contest. Of course we're too "civilized" to see it like that. > In the States it seems to go like this: > > "How are you?" > > "Fine, how are you?" Same contest, but the status in question is mental health rather than physical health. (How [sane] are you?) Any answer other than the expected "Fine" or "OK" makes one wonder what your deal may be. (Sorry Lee :) From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Nov 28 16:13:41 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:13:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <200711280000.lAS00Lj05088@unreasonable.com> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> <1196201819_15893@S1.cableone.net> <200711280000.lAS00Lj05088@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <1196266474_33248@S4.cableone.net> At 05:00 PM 11/27/2007, David wrote: >I wrote: > > > To me, the way to answer most questions like this is to simplify them > > to one involving two or three people. > >Keith replied: > > >That's not entirely legit. Very small numbers of people invoke > >different mental modules than larger ones. See "The Nurture > >Assumption" for a discussion of relations vs groups. > >and then elaborated: > > >Relations involving two or maybe 3 people seem to invoke different > >parts of the brain. So you really can't simplify down to that size > >and then extrapolate back up to larger groups. Or rather, you can, > >but your extrapolations will be wrong. For example, you don't get mob > >behavior below some number of people. > >Apples and oranges. I'm talking about extrapolating ethics; you're >talking about extrapolating behavior. I'm saying what ought to be; >you're talking about what might happen instead. > >Or are you saying that the ethics could also change based on the >numbers involved? Because, for instance, the factors to be considered >are different, e.g., the existence or risk of mob behavior? I haven't thought deeply about this, but I would expect our wired in sense of ethics to change depending on which brain module was activated. It's really clear from context and history that the biblical injunction not to kill didn't apply to war with out groups. Even then, whether or not your group went out to kill neighboring groups depended on ecological conditions. I.e., in times of plenty you hunted and took care of kids rather than going out and taking a major risk to getting killed yourself by trying to kill neighbors. When times were looking bleak, trying to kill neighbors was (from your genes viewpoint) a good tradeoff. Keith From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 17:20:15 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] beowolf Message-ID: <169569.12309.qm@web35609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I apologize in advance for the bad formatting of my non-blackberry internet connected cell phone. keith's observations about group behavior made me think of asimov's classic "foundation" series and the theories it was based upon. At one time hollywood considered doing a big budget film based on it but i guess they lost their nerve. John ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Nov 28 17:24:52 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:24:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beowulf In-Reply-To: <1196266474_33248@S4.cableone.net> References: <4331D43E-43B4-4C27-8676-613EE92A0A33@mac.com> <200711240630.lAO6UXpl022012@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <200711241323.lAODNoj90915@unreasonable.com> <1195938531_14609@S4.cableone.net> <6C0F10F5-51A7-4DCB-AD33-A2A0D32EA0EE@randallsquared.com> <1196201819_15893@S1.cableone.net> <200711280000.lAS00Lj05088@unreasonable.com> <1196266474_33248@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711281734.lASHYWj95134@unreasonable.com> Keith wrote: >It's really clear from context and history that the biblical >injunction not to kill didn't apply to war with out groups. Footnote: The Old Testament has no such injunction. Translating Exodus 20:13 as "Thou shalt not kill" is incorrect; the word used in Hebrew is /tirtsakh/, meaning "to murder." OTOH, the New Testament has Matthew 26:52, where Jesus purportedly says, "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." That may have been what you had in mind. Further aside, it's interesting to see the mutations in religion due to translation errors. For instance, Isaiah 7:14 refers to /alma/ ("young woman"), which got morphed into "virgin". (Thence, the Virgin Mary.) Of course, interpretations of the Second Amendment hang on a comma. -- David. From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Nov 28 17:53:35 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:53:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] capture bonding In-Reply-To: <038b01c8318c$46fb83d0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> References: <038b01c8318c$46fb83d0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <1196272391_35492@S3.cableone.net> If there are any on the list who understand EP enough to edit the wikipedia article on it, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks, Keith From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Wed Nov 28 19:54:41 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:54:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Website: bad content on transhumanism Message-ID: <380-2200711328195441826@M2W006.mail2web.com> Does anyone have infomration on this website? http://www.experiencefestival.com/ The term "nazi" is used in the middle of listing transhumanists. I'm assuming this is intentional. There is no contact information. If you can help, please let me know. cheers, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 01:21:57 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:21:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been Message-ID: I sent this to the extropy-chat list on November 19, but it never appeared on the list. Now, trying from my office. Spike: >Translation please? Should be a cool post, starting out with a comment >about artificial intelligence. Dear Spike: The extraction I posted was about a 'Stabilization' process to give me a permanent job at INAF-IFSI. The salary would be no different (unlivable in Rome without an Italian family), resources such as computers are not automatically covered and travel expenses are only irregularly covered and reimbursed >4 months later. The same as what I experienced since 2003, in other words. You must understand that such an offer is the dream of every Italian researcher, but I graciously (and politely I thought) said 'no thank' you' to INAF last Friday, as I was on my way to the airport. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 01:17:17 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:17:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all taxes Message-ID: Spike: >This makes me wonder about the impact of the twin developments of eBay and >PayPal. For what it's worth, Paypal does _not_ allow you to transfer your banking account across countries. You must close out your account in one country before you can use that same email address in another country. Using different email addresses doesn't help, unless you have different countries billing addresses to different credit cards. Generally, you must have your current country billing address attached to a particular credit card. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com amara at boulder.swri.edu Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 01:20:55 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:20:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? Message-ID: I sent this to the extropy-chat list on November 19, but it never appeared on the list. Now, trying from my office. Amara >Physics grokmeisters, have you heard of this? Spike: Garrett is a cool guy, and sympathetic to our transhumanist causes, as well: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/08/garrett-lisis-inspiration.html#c3358366694845658401 Amara From a Starbucks in downtown Boulder, using TMobile internet, wearing her airplane clothes from two days ago, who is still waiting for her *four* pieces of luggage (two of which were oversized and entered the conveyor system from a different part of the airport terminal) which the Rome Fiumicino airport Lufthansa baggage handlers miraculously put all on the wrong conveyor belt, so that Amara arrived in the US to start her new life with only a toothbrush. ...I succeeded to have a futon mattress delivered to my home Saturday night, so I did have something to sleep on Saturday night, even if I had no blankets and no sleeping clothes and no pillow. Last night I had a blanket and a lamp and cooking pot too, so I'm making some progress. -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 01:10:56 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:10:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services Message-ID: Giulio: >I must admit that in Amara's situation I would not have even thought >of writing letters to anyone. I would just have canceled the bank >account or credit card associated to the services to discontinue, and >left the country without leaving a forwarding address. The >"authorities" would have acted, if ever, 50 or 60 years later, which >is a problem only if our immortality aspirations come true. Given my years of experience with Telecom Italia, Italgas, Tele2, Fastweb, the only way I could manage a proper closure was with a fax and a registered letter with my information. This was the advice of other Italians around me, by the way. To put everything in writing to protect myself, in other words. But I didn't expect this - ENEL (the largest electricity company in Italy) (**): (in Italian) Telephone Call to Amara (while the moving company are carting away her house) : -------------------- ENEL: We just received your fax and racommandata and we cannot stop your electricity. ME: You must. I will no longer be in Italy after November 16. Please send to me at my EU address the last fattura (bill). ENEL: We cannot send the last fattura to your EU address. ME: What is the problem? ENEL: We cannot send the last fattura to your EU address (plus lots of stuff that Amara didn't comprehend) ME: I don't understand the problem with turning off the electricity and sending to me the last fattura. Can I see someone in an office? ENEL: There is an office in Albano (impossible for Amara, it is some distance away, her car is scheduled for demolition, and she doesn't have time) ME: I cannot go to Albano, I think there is an office in Frascati... ENEL: (They hang up on her.) (**) two weeks after I sent my Fax and registered letter with my closure information, which included my customer information, codice fiscale, new address (I gave them my EU address in Latvia, because I thought it would be easier for them) -------------------- In the next week, I discover that the ENEL office in my town in Frascati has no staff to help customers. In fact, even though there are ENEL offices all over Italy, only a small percentage have a Customer Service departments, the closest to my former home is about 30 kilometers away. Seven days after, I ask my girlfiend if she can call ENEL and confirm that ENEL will turn off the electricity and send to my Latvian address, the last bill. AMARA's FRIEND: I'm calling for my colleague and friend to confirm that you will turn off the electricity and send to her the last bill (they proceed to ask her personal information, like her tax id, to confirm her identity, in case my friend is a fraud) ENEL: We received her fax and registered letter, but we were waiting for her to call. AMARA's FRIEND: She sent to you in fax and letter her closure information. What is the problem? Can't you send to her the last fattura at her Lettonia (Latvia) address and turn off her electricity? ENEL: Lettonia? AMARA's FRIEND: It's an EU country. Latvia. ENEL: Leectenstein? Lettonia, I don't see. (They hang up on her.) (Note to reader: Hanging up on customers is a standard Italian utility company strategy, because they know that the customer will call back, and probably get somebody different on the phone who might know the answer.) Amara's friend calls ENEL again, gives her personal information again, and comes to the EU/Latvia address problem again. ENEL: Lettonia is not in our database. Is there another address we can send the fattura to? AMARA's FRIEND: Do you have the United States in your database? ENEL: Maybe, I will look. (They succeed to find the United States in their database) AMARA's FRIEND: (After giving them her Boulder address.) So can you turn off her electricity on November 17? ENEL: Yes, we can turn off her electricity on November 17. -------------------- One week later, after I have left Italy, I discover that ENEL has called my friend back, and that there is a problem. They cannot close out my account until they have entered my old flat and read the meter. Why didn't they say that during the previous month? Why didn't they say that during the last phone conversation? I don't have any idea if they actually did turn off my electricity on November 17. I have not received the last bill, yet. I will remind you that this is the largest energy / electricity company in Italy. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 29 02:01:24 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:01:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fast HIV test In-Reply-To: <380-2200711328195441826@M2W006.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200711328195441826@M2W006.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <1196301661_48330@S1.cableone.net> http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=d01c1ac1-bff2-43d8-b1cd-1af9993e5301&k=1611 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 29 02:01:23 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:01:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1544.72.236.102.91.1196301683.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > > From a Starbucks in downtown Boulder, using TMobile internet, wearing > her airplane clothes from two days ago, who is still waiting for her > *four* pieces of luggage (two of which were oversized and entered the > conveyor system from a different part of the airport terminal) which the > Rome Fiumicino airport Lufthansa baggage handlers miraculously put all > on the wrong conveyor belt, so that Amara arrived in the US to start her > new life with only a toothbrush. > > ...I succeeded to have a futon mattress delivered to my home Saturday > night, so I did have something to sleep on Saturday night, even if I > had no blankets and no sleeping clothes and no pillow. Last night > I had a blanket and a lamp and cooking pot too, so I'm making some > progress. > Great heavens, Amara! I hope your stuff shows up soon. Geez. How is it possible to lose 4 pieces of luggage which entered the system in different places! Conspiracy theory, anyone!?! Regards, MB From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 02:07:06 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:07:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from the other side Message-ID: Hi extropes, For what it's worth, I arrived in Boulder on November 17, with only my toothbrush and my new passport and my extra carry-on of photocopies of my identifications as a side-effect from the large theft of my wallet-purse on October 29. I'm still shell-shocked and disoriented because after I arrived on the 17th, I left on the 20th (12 hours after my luggage from Rome finally arrived) to San Jose to have new driver's license and social security (like the codice fiscale) cards. Those two things took 15 minutes in total. I spent Thanksgiving with my sister and saw two close friends (Hi Samantha), and returned to Boulder on the evening of November 23. I was only in Boulder one day, however, before I went to San Antonio, Texas and saw two more friends (Hi Damien and Barbara) and to attend the 'orientation' for my new job. The 'mother ship' (I call it) of Southwest Research Institute is located there. So now I'm in Boulder, and probably know Denver Airport far more than I know the town that I moved to, even though I technically moved to Boulder 10 days ago. In my home, I have a futon mattress, two lamps, enough warm clothes, cooking-ware, one Mac G4 laptop: useless with a broken memory cache on the logic board that will cost $700 to replace, a two seasons newer Mac G4 laptop to replace it, but completely unconfigured so far with the exception of this email (Eudora) program and Firefox browser. It seems that I picked up this newer computer from my UK colleagues (six weeks ago), where they were storing it for me from my UK Ebay purchase, just in time. I will not try to salvage my old G4 laptop Mac. The tragedy of my International-Move-From-Hell is my notebook of two years of calculations of my water-on-the-terrestrial-planets research project. The notebook is gone, a result of my mistake to send it through Poste Italiane. I consider it a much larger tragedy than the theft of all of my identifications in my wallet-purse, three weeks before. This notebook was in one of 22 brown padded envelopes that I had sent of my in-progress writing and research projects. After the moving company picked up my home, I still needed to send these notes and notebooks. I couldn't use Poste Vaticano because I didn't have any more my identifications after the wallet-purse theft to enter the Vatican. DHL is expensive and then (and now) and I'm still desperately broke (that's _why_ I needed to leave Italy). I figured because I had no bad experiences in the past 5 years with brown padded envelopes (only boxes; seven in the last 5 years were stolen), I could trust that Poste Italiane could send these. I was wrong. Four arrived to Boulder with major tears at the edges, with two of them, taped up by the US Postal Service a second time. Of those two, most of the contents had fallen out: that was my thick calculations notebook; which had my name and email address and phone number, by the way. On the more recent packages, one of the postal clerks on the US side had written: 'All Closed'. I am still waiting for 3 more padded envelopes, but, if those were stolen by the thieves at Poste Italiane too, then at least those contents are orders of magnitude less valuable to my than my research notebook. So what can I say? I will have the opportunity to sharpen up my arguments for that project, but some significant part of it is irreplaceable. I doubt it was an accident with so many torn; the thieves at Poste Italiane were probably looking for valuable Christmas presents, and I probably disappointed them. Who else would find scribbles and photocopies of journal articles valuable? I will tell the relocation company not to let their customers moving in or out of Italy to use Poste Italiane. The only good thing I can say about my move, so far, is that at least the baggage handlers at Rome Fiumicino airport didn't steal my stuff while it was on the ground for those two days, since my four pieces of luggage was carrying alot of valuable things. I have my bicycle, in which I have my old Heidelberg riding lifestyle back. And of course, the SwRI people here are wonderful. It's incredibly nice to get so much support and interest from my workplace after my last years of feeling like I was thrown to the wolves. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From mail at harveynewstrom.com Thu Nov 29 02:07:33 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:07:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Website: bad content on transhumanism In-Reply-To: <380-2200711328195441826@M2W006.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <0085802B654E47EBA5D823BC69EED84D@Catbert> On Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:55 PM, nvitamore at austin.rr.com asked: > Does anyone have information on this website? > http://www.experiencefestival.com/ > > The term "nazi" is used in the middle of listing > transhumanists. I'm assuming this is intentional. There is > no contact information. > > If you can help, please let me know. I don't know anything about it. But from what I have found out looking around the net, they are infamous for copying other websites and articles and presenting it on their own website without attribution. It is probable that they did not write the text you found, but stole it. If you Google for that same text, you might be able to find the original website. The contact information on the site is: Email: info at experiencefestival.com Phone: +46 8 545 855 15 Fax: +46 8 545 855 10 Address: The Experience Enterprise Strandv gen 7b 114 56 Stockholm Sweden The contact information of the Registrant for experiencefestival.com is: Jonas Lindqvist (jonas.lindqvist at arkacia.se) Arkacia AB Strandvagen 7B Stockholm, N/A SE-11456 SE +46 8 545 855 00 The website was created on Sep 18 2002. Domain Service Provider is Infinet Communications Group Inc. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 02:31:46 2007 From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:31:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolutiion is not random,... In-Reply-To: References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just for the record, when I made the original comment, which was originally against teleological interpretations of evolution, all I implied is that the theory of evolution doesn't tell us what the species are going to evolve into. It wasn't originally about the determinism/randomness philosophical debate, but if you guys want to discuss that, fine by me. I just hope that no one thinks that this is an ideological matter rather than a philosophical one. That is, neither the Extropy Institute or the WTA or anyone else needs to take a position on the matter. Regards, Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 02:37:55 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:37:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fast HIV test In-Reply-To: <1196301661_48330@S1.cableone.net> References: <380-2200711328195441826@M2W006.mail2web.com> <1196301661_48330@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <62c14240711281837h58f21112p9d71aaa4c78ddfb0@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 9:01 PM, hkhenson wrote: > http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=d01c1ac1-bff2-43d8-b1cd-1af9993e5301&k=1611 "...he warned against making the test available over the counter in pharmacies or using self-testing kits sold on the Internet. Such use is controversial because it's done without counselling from a health professional" Why is it so controversial? Having HIV = bad, Not Having HIV = better If one understands HIV enough to want the answer, what more preliminary "counseling" should be required? Now if the answer is simply about money, then I "get it" - seems to be the answer to a lot of "Why?" type questions. From pjmanney at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 03:24:20 2007 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:24:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? In-Reply-To: <1544.72.236.102.91.1196301683.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <1544.72.236.102.91.1196301683.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <29666bf30711281924y16343784n5c458d3bb02b9446@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2007 6:01 PM, MB wrote: > Great heavens, Amara! I hope your stuff shows up soon. Geez. How is it possible to > lose 4 pieces of luggage which entered the system in different places! Conspiracy > theory, anyone!?! Less conspiracy than the cherry on top of her experiences in Italy in general. And I am heartbroken about your notebooks. It would be like if I lost my manuscript now... :( Amara, I know you want to go back to Europe eventually, but for all your friends' sakes, please pick a country where the infrastructure works next time? ;-) I, for one, am glad to have you back and am conspiring with my family to visit you next year! Snow sounds great right now, after weeks of fiery Malibu! PJ From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 29 03:01:43 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:01:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200711290328.lAT3SMdL006846@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:22 PM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [ExI] What a long strange trip its been > > > Spike: > >Translation please? Should be a cool post, starting out with a comment > >about artificial intelligence. > > Dear Spike: The extraction I posted was about a 'Stabilization' process... > but I graciously (and > politely I thought) said 'no thank' you' to INAF last Friday, as I was > on my way to the airport. > > Amara Good for you Amara. You should have politely told them to go to hell, after the runaround you suffered. And suffered. Italy's loss is Colorado's gain. spike From neptune at superlink.net Thu Nov 29 03:05:31 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:05:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Envy by Helmut Shoeck References: <671821.59140.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com><028501c82f34$c1c75490$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><006801c82f8e$18afe020$3e893cd1@pavilion> <033d01c830c9$40ff1dc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <009a01c83234$c0438dc0$36893cd1@pavilion> On Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:39 AM Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com wrote: > Dan writes > > > [Lee wrote] > > > >> Don't forget the signaling effect of keeping the same subject > >> line. It can be read "I am too busy, and have far more > >> important things to think about and to work on than futzing > >> with such details." As Keith has remarked, so much we > >> do is really about status. > > > > This reminds me of that book by Helmut Shoeck -- _Envy_. > > Has anyone here read it? > > Yes, we had a bit of discussion about it in October 2006 > under the inappropriate subject line "Humor: evil eye" > (my fault). I missed that. Running a forced re-education camp is distracting at times -- even if it is the labor of love. :) > > Reading it, a few years ago, I started to pick up on envy > > in other people's and my behavior. (Or maybe the truth is, I'm reading > > the book into my life rather than finding firming evidence.:) > > I wrote back in October 2006: > > I think that the author of a book I'm reading, "Envy" by > Helmut Shoeck, is onto something: > > There is an ongoing unconscious conspiracy to ignore > the role of envy in human affairs and as an explanation for > much of human conduct. I attribute this mainly to the > reluctance by anthropologists and other sensitive people > to criticize primitive societies, in which envy plays such an > overpowering role. > > I would now also add that recognition of the role of envy also > implicitly criticizes many of the poor, and we can't have that. IIRC, Shoeck offered -- but this was back in the late 1960s when he wrote the book -- that envy is ignored partly because people think it's been licked -- at least in modern societies. IIRC, he also seems to think that because it's ignored in modern societies, anthropologists and sociologists who [all?] come from advanced Western societies are ill equipped to spot it in their societies as well as in others. Regards, Dan See the always/never imitated "Free Banking FAQ" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/BankFAQ.html From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 29 04:15:53 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:15:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fast HIV test In-Reply-To: <1196301661_48330@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711290415.lAT4FpZt008554@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson > Subject: [ExI] Fast HIV test > http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=d01c1ac1-bff2-43d8- b1cd-1af9993e5301&k=1611 Keith on this website: http://www.avert.org/usastaty.htm I found this data (the last column is calculated): year diagnosed deaths alive with HIV in USA (calculated) 1980 100 30 70 1981 339 130 279 1982 1,201 466 1014 1983 3,153 1,511 2656 1984 6,368 3,526 5498 1985 12,044 6,996 10546 1986 19,404 12,183 17767 1987 29,105 16,488 30384 1988 36,126 21,244 45266 1989 43,499 28,054 60711 1990 49,546 31,836 78421 1991 60,573 37,106 101888 1992 79,657 41,849 139696 1993 79,879 45,733 173842 1994 73,086 50,657 196271 1995 69,984 51,414 214841 1996 61,124 38,074 237891 1997 49,379 21,846 265424 1998 43,225 19,005 289644 1999 41,356 18,491 312509 2000 39,513 17,139 334883 2001 39,262 17,726 356419 2002 39,620 17,318 378721 2003 40,902 18,020 401603 2004 40,907 18,099 424411 2005 45,669 17,011 453069 I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is interesting. spike From mail at harveynewstrom.com Thu Nov 29 04:28:09 2007 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:28:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Regarding Wickedness In-Reply-To: <038b01c8318c$46fb83d0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677> Message-ID: <661F504138994BD9BA8FCC20482D3787@Catbert> On Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:57 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > You seem to be way too brittle and inflexible here. I can > imagine that someone with slightly different values from me > and a whole lot of experience that differs from mine might > really see salience where I see inconsequence, and see > inconsequence where I see salience. I don't deny that people have different opinions and might believe they are right while others are wrong. But to selectively present the evidence, to pretend that the opposing evidence doesn't exist, is misleading. A truthful person would actually present all the opposing evidence and their counter-claims. Propaganda only presents the supporting evidence without addressing counterclaims. > What we were just talking about is starred item number 3: > the selective presentation of facts. What part of "the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth" do you not understand? Selective presentation of the facts is misleading. It is not truthful. Such a presentation would be rejected as misleading evidence in a court of law. It would be rejected as misleading results by the scientific method. It would be rejected as a misleading article in Wikipedia. It would be rejected as a logical fallacy in a debate. I can't think of any criteria of "truth" that would condone such a selective presentation. I can only think of untruthful purposes for such behavior. > Now I would be pretty > angry myself, of course, if Spike, Samantha, and Eugen > were killed by the neighboring group. I fancy, though, that > even as angry as I would be I would somehow keep myself from > exaggerating. (E.g., calling them cowards.) How is that "exaggerating"? You reduce a tangible major charge (mass murder of our friends) to a meaningless childish insult. This is belittling rather than exaggerating the situation, in my opinion. > It is necessary to *validate* that anger, and the anger > of your listeners. But why can't you do it truthfully? If you have to be misleading or dishonest to do so, I don't see how you can use the word "validate". > Apparently you consider it factual that those who killed our > Extropians (in my example) are evil, but yet you don't > consider the regimes of North Korea, Iran, and the late > Saddam Hussein to be evil. Why? That's outrageous. I never defended any of them. I think you are misinterpreting my doubt about "weapons of mass destruction" as being a defense of these regimes. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP From x at extropica.org Wed Nov 28 21:21:14 2007 From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:21:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Evol, Soc] Survival of the Selfless Message-ID: "The consensus that formed in the 1960s turned group selection into a pariah concept, taught primarily as an example of how not to think. Interpreting behaviours as "for the good of the group" was said to be just plain wrong. Inclusive fitness theory (also called kin selection), evolutionary game theory and selfish gene theory were all developed to explain the evolution of apparently were all developed to explain the evolution of apparently altruistic behaviours in individualistic terms, without invoking group selection." Abstract "Current sociobiology is in theoretical disarray, with a diversity of frameworks that are poorly related to each other. Part of the problem is a reluctance to revisit the pivotal events that took place during the 1960s, including the rejection of group selection and the development of alternative theoretical frameworks to explain the evolution of cooperative and altruistic behaviors. In this article, we take a "back to basics" approach, explaining what group selection is, why its rejection was regarded as so important, and how it has been revived based on a more careful formulation and subsequent research. Multilevel selection theory (including group selection) provides an elegant theoretical foundation for sociobiology in the future, once its turbulent past is appropriately understood." Rethinking the Theoretical Foundation of Sociobiology [Sent on behalf of Jef] From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 08:33:47 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:33:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fast HIV test In-Reply-To: <200711290415.lAT4FpZt008554@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <1196301661_48330@S1.cableone.net> <200711290415.lAT4FpZt008554@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2007 4:15 AM, spike wrote: > > Keith on this website: > > http://www.avert.org/usastaty.htm > > I found this data (the last column is calculated): > > > year diagnosed deaths alive with HIV in USA (calculated) > > 1980 100 30 70 > 1981 339 130 279 > 1982 1,201 466 1014 > 1983 3,153 1,511 2656 > 1984 6,368 3,526 5498 > 1985 12,044 6,996 10546 > 1986 19,404 12,183 17767 > 1987 29,105 16,488 30384 > 1988 36,126 21,244 45266 > 1989 43,499 28,054 60711 > 1990 49,546 31,836 78421 > 1991 60,573 37,106 101888 > 1992 79,657 41,849 139696 > 1993 79,879 45,733 173842 > 1994 73,086 50,657 196271 > 1995 69,984 51,414 214841 > 1996 61,124 38,074 237891 > 1997 49,379 21,846 265424 > 1998 43,225 19,005 289644 > 1999 41,356 18,491 312509 > 2000 39,513 17,139 334883 > 2001 39,262 17,726 356419 > 2002 39,620 17,318 378721 > 2003 40,902 18,020 401603 > 2004 40,907 18,099 424411 > 2005 45,669 17,011 453069 > > > I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is interesting. > Looks to me like the improvements in treatment of HIV are helping to spread the disease to more and more people. i.e. HIV patients live longer so continue risky behaviour and disease transmission for longer, non-infected people know that HIV can be now treated so their behaviour also becomes more risky. In this case medical treatment is working to humanity's disadvantage. Like casual use of antibiotics is creating resistant strains of diseases as people discontinue treatment too early, leaving the resistant strains to carry on. BillK From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 29 11:38:51 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:38:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ExI] grand unified theory? In-Reply-To: <29666bf30711281924y16343784n5c458d3bb02b9446@mail.gmail.com> References: <1544.72.236.102.91.1196301683.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <29666bf30711281924y16343784n5c458d3bb02b9446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1051.72.236.102.113.1196336331.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> >> Conspiracy >> theory, anyone!?! > > Less conspiracy than the cherry on top of her experiences in Italy in general. > Of course. I was being facetious. But given the experiences related so far (not the least the loss of the most precious mailed brown envelope) it almost reads like something's out to get her. In a novel or tv-drama we'd meet the bad guy soon! ;))) And we'd get to pick him all to little pieces painfully for his evil deeds. And find the missing items. I'm glad the luggage finally reappeared and tremendously sorry about the notebook, that's terrible. The lesson I see is that it pays to have backup, even of our hardcopy backups. We're spoiled here in the US with our postal system, even with all its faults. I hardly ever have a package broken in to, deliberately or otherwise. By far most of my mail arrives in a relatively timely fashion, with very few losses. Regards, MB From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 13:34:19 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:34:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20711290534s28dcf508q499510b855ca4728@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 2:10 AM, Amara Graps wrote: > -------------------- > ENEL: We just received your fax and racommandata and we cannot stop your electricity. > ME: You must. I will no longer be in Italy after November 16. Please > send to me at my EU address the last fattura (bill). > ----------------------- May I suggest an alternative scenario: - ENEL: We just received your fax and racommandata and we cannot stop your electricity. - AMARA: Be my guest to provide electricity for free to whomever you like. After the date indicated, I shall not be there anymore, I shall not make any more use of it, I shall not paying a dime for the electricity that will be erogated there. I just thought it fair from my side to inform you. - ENEL: But we want you to pay for it - AMARA: So sue me in Latvia, once you have found the country on the map. Stefano Vaj From x at extropica.org Thu Nov 29 13:35:38 2007 From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:35:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" free online Message-ID: Rainbows End, by Vernor Vinge has been placed online by the author. From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 15:04:13 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <176175.48886.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 15:03:17 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:03:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <420195.51805.qm@web35601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 14:56:32 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:56:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <527149.45027.qm@web35613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:17 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:57:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <369005.49456.qm@web35601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:39 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <23230.32048.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ From x at extropica.org Thu Nov 29 15:24:59 2007 From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:24:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Risk] Uncertainty rules In-Reply-To: <22360fa10711290720n2fb9e505j6b580c251f6ce6f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <22360fa10711290708p758be9e5kd5bd8280ad0521d6@mail.gmail.com> <22360fa10711290720n2fb9e505j6b580c251f6ce6f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Uncertainty rules - 24 November 2007 - Print Article - New Scientist [Highlighting the wisdom of the Proactionary Principle without using the term.] FINDING a way to live on our planet without destroying or using up its limited resources is essential to humanity's survival. It is one of our toughest challenges, as it requires a combination of science with economics, law and policy. This weekend, international leaders and policy-makers will meet at a once-a-decade conference in Ahmedabad, India, to take stock of progress in sustainable development and set new goals for the next 10 years. Before moving forward, however, we need policies that stand on firm foundations. One of the key pillars of sustainable policy is the precautionary principle, a concept adopted by the Rio Earth Summit in 1992. In essence, it states that if you want to do something that might harm the environment, and the science relating to the risk is uncertain, then you must take care. A historic conference on the precautionary principleat Wingspread, Wisconsin, in 1998, introduced the idea of a "causal link" between activities and harm. The idea was adopted by the European Union in 2000 and has since become pivotal in policy discussions relating to the principle. In May this year, the World Conservation Union (IUCN) proposed guidelinesthat differentiate between situations where the science relating to a potential threat is uncertain and where it is relatively certain. It defines "relatively certain" as meaning a causal link can be scientifically established. This might all sound reasonable, but there is a philosophical problem here. In the 1700s, the philosopher David Humeshowed that presenting science this way is fundamentally flawed. A simple example: how do you know that the sun will rise tomorrow? Well, because you have seen it rise on hundreds of mornings; because it has always done so; because day always follows night. But Hume showed that such a conclusion is derived from habit, not logic. No matter how many events we observe there can always be an exception - and we can never say that because night ends, day must follow. No one loses sleep worrying whether the sun will rise tomorrow; we strongly expect it will, and we plan our activities accordingly. But such habits are dangerous in science, and it is precisely through questioning them that our knowledge progresses. Newton's theory of gravity seemed to have perfect predictive power until Einstein showed it to be flawed. Since then, Einstein's theory has been found wanting, and so it goes on. As Karl Poppersaid: "There is no truth, only progress." The scientific method was designed to take this into account. Instead of trying to establish facts that are definitely true, scientists look for results that disprove their hypotheses. Seen in this light, science can never deliver what the new interpretation of the precautionary principle promises. This may seem an obscure point, but it has profound practical implications. How can we logically apply the principle to determine whether there is a causal link between human activities and damage to natural resources when by definition the science is uncertain? When policy-makers ask for such a link, scientists cannot give an honest answer. Management under these terms is bound to lead to muddied, incoherent policies, with some activities not treated with the caution they deserve, and vice versa. Further, by overstating what science can achieve and ignoring its underlying principles, scientists become complacent. We dull its cutting edge because we allow our current ideas more permanence than they merit. The precautionary principle has value: we are now more cautious about undertaking activities that may harm ourselves or our environment. But we need philosophy too. Science is not flawless or limitless, not least because we humans, with our limited perceptions, are its masters. With issues such as global warming we stand on the brink of an abyss. We must decide as wisely as we can how to spend our time and money to ensure a sustainable future. If we don't undertake research with a clear sense of our limitations and possibilities, and if policy makes promises it can't keep, both scientific understanding and global management will suffer. The best way forward is to remove the notion of cause and effect from policy. Both Hume and Popper advocated the use of probability theory to ascribe degrees of belief, instead of searching for scientific certainty. Rather than trying to establish causation, policy-makers could introduce a scale of increasingly strict preventive measures that depend on the strength of the evidence that some harmful effect will occur. Establishing such probabilities is within the scope of science, and the resulting policy would be clearer and more achievable. The problem arises from a deeper issue within science itself, so the change must begin there. Scientists must become more aware of the philosophy underpinning our attempts to understand the world, and make clear to policy-makers and the public what science can and can't do. Our future depends on it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 15:06:27 2007 From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: <845931.83902.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 29 16:53:32 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:53:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Evol, Soc] Survival of the Selfless In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1196355189_9878@S1.cableone.net> At 02:21 PM 11/28/2007, you wrote: >"The consensus that formed in the 1960s turned group selection into a >pariah concept, taught primarily as an example of how not to think. I am going to have to read this closely. I usually don't disagree with EO Wilson, but this might be the time. Humans don't come with reliable ways to accurately measure relatedness. Thus we depend on secondary ways like who was around in our childhood. This is *known* to be the way humans avoid mating with close relatives. So "relative" in the inclusive fitness sense is kind of fuzzy. That being the case, acting for the "good of the group" and acting for relatives who share your genes was pretty much the same thing during the EEA when we lived in small bands with a high level of relatedness. You can make a case that saving strangers from a burning house in the modern world is a misfiring due to the fuzzy concept of "relative." That doesn't keep it from being a damn good thing to do! Keith Henson From scerir at libero.it Thu Nov 29 17:16:46 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:16:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services References: <176175.48886.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c832ab$a7d43d80$2cba1f97@archimede> John Grigg: > i am astonished about the state > of modern italy. [...]. I've received that post 5 or 6 times :-), so I must say that the astonishment is something you can even breathe and touch here in Italy. But I'm inclined to think there is no such a thing like 'Italy'. There are different regions, cultures, traditions, populations, .... As we usually say: 'Italians are ... the others, not us' (meaning that we are the good ones). In example, I know that in Bozen (Sudtirol) the electricity company is very efficient. Here (in Abruzzo) the same company is terrible (or worse). Nobody knows exactly the reasons why Italy is not a 'normal' occidental country. But, for sure, many principles are not working properly here. Principle of legality, principle of citizenship (citizens are not slaves), principle of actuality-effectivity of punishment, principle of responsability, principle of leadership (if such a principle exists), etc. It is a long, sad story. Saluti, s. From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 17:49:40 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:49:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] from the other side In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Amara, sorry for your notebook. This why whenever I travel I carry my notebooks and laptop with me. I feel exactly the same, that I would rather loose money and precious valuable than my research notes or codes. It is horrible that people in a state agency like Poste Italiane stole your stuff. But I had stuff stolen in USA too. In fact, similarly to you, I lost my dissertation original files and 3 years worth of research material, stuff that was stored in a laptop that I left overnight in my office at a college in Baton Rouge. Somebody with access to the offices stole it. Of course, I was very stupid in not saving the material on a CD. The college authorities were not able to find out who did it. So there are bad people everywhere. But again, I'm very happy you are at home. I hope you will find peace and happiness. Giovanni Amara Graps wrote: Hi extropes, For what it's worth, I arrived in Boulder on November 17, with only my toothbrush and my new passport and my extra carry-on of photocopies of my identifications as a side-effect from the large theft of my wallet-purse on October 29. I'm still shell-shocked and disoriented because after I arrived on the 17th, I left on the 20th (12 hours after my luggage from Rome finally arrived) to San Jose to have new driver's license and social security (like the codice fiscale) cards. Those two things took 15 minutes in total. I spent Thanksgiving with my sister and saw two close friends (Hi Samantha), and returned to Boulder on the evening of November 23. I was only in Boulder one day, however, before I went to San Antonio, Texas and saw two more friends (Hi Damien and Barbara) and to attend the 'orientation' for my new job. The 'mother ship' (I call it) of Southwest Research Institute is located there. So now I'm in Boulder, and probably know Denver Airport far more than I know the town that I moved to, even though I technically moved to Boulder 10 days ago. In my home, I have a futon mattress, two lamps, enough warm clothes, cooking-ware, one Mac G4 laptop: useless with a broken memory cache on the logic board that will cost $700 to replace, a two seasons newer Mac G4 laptop to replace it, but completely unconfigured so far with the exception of this email (Eudora) program and Firefox browser. It seems that I picked up this newer computer from my UK colleagues (six weeks ago), where they were storing it for me from my UK Ebay purchase, just in time. I will not try to salvage my old G4 laptop Mac. The tragedy of my International-Move-From-Hell is my notebook of two years of calculations of my water-on-the-terrestrial-planets research project. The notebook is gone, a result of my mistake to send it through Poste Italiane. I consider it a much larger tragedy than the theft of all of my identifications in my wallet-purse, three weeks before. This notebook was in one of 22 brown padded envelopes that I had sent of my in-progress writing and research projects. After the moving company picked up my home, I still needed to send these notes and notebooks. I couldn't use Poste Vaticano because I didn't have any more my identifications after the wallet-purse theft to enter the Vatican. DHL is expensive and then (and now) and I'm still desperately broke (that's _why_ I needed to leave Italy). I figured because I had no bad experiences in the past 5 years with brown padded envelopes (only boxes; seven in the last 5 years were stolen), I could trust that Poste Italiane could send these. I was wrong. Four arrived to Boulder with major tears at the edges, with two of them, taped up by the US Postal Service a second time. Of those two, most of the contents had fallen out: that was my thick calculations notebook; which had my name and email address and phone number, by the way. On the more recent packages, one of the postal clerks on the US side had written: 'All Closed'. I am still waiting for 3 more padded envelopes, but, if those were stolen by the thieves at Poste Italiane too, then at least those contents are orders of magnitude less valuable to my than my research notebook. So what can I say? I will have the opportunity to sharpen up my arguments for that project, but some significant part of it is irreplaceable. I doubt it was an accident with so many torn; the thieves at Poste Italiane were probably looking for valuable Christmas presents, and I probably disappointed them. Who else would find scribbles and photocopies of journal articles valuable? I will tell the relocation company not to let their customers moving in or out of Italy to use Poste Italiane. The only good thing I can say about my move, so far, is that at least the baggage handlers at Rome Fiumicino airport didn't steal my stuff while it was on the ground for those two days, since my four pieces of luggage was carrying alot of valuable things. I have my bicycle, in which I have my old Heidelberg riding lifestyle back. And of course, the SwRI people here are wonderful. It's incredibly nice to get so much support and interest from my workplace after my last years of feeling like I was thrown to the wolves. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Thu Nov 29 18:11:36 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:11:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services References: <176175.48886.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000301c832ab$a7d43d80$2cba1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <000701c832b3$48815770$2cba1f97@archimede> > principle of actuality-effectivity of punishment I mean ..... there are stories like this, almost every day ..... s. Drunk-driver kicks up stink with perfume profits Thu 29 Nov 2007, 16:26 GMT http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUKL2916418520071129 ROME (Reuters) - An Italian man convicted for KILLING FOUR teenagers while driving drunk has brought out his own gypsy-branded fashion line, raising questions about whether such activities are compatible with his sentence. Marco Ahmetovic, a 22-year-old member of the Roma or gypsy minority, has hired an agent to market a range of perfumes, watches, jeans and sunglasses. He was sentenced to 6-1/2 years detention but, in a controversial ruling, can spend most of that time UNDER HOUSE ARREST in return for cooperating [?????] with the court. So far no retail outlet has taken up the brand and it is only available on the auction site Ebay, with his watches priced at 159 euros each. Ahmetovic, who killed the four teenage boys in April after driving his van onto a pavement while under the influence of alcohol, said he did not intend to profit from "the shameful things that I have done". Each product is stamped with the brand label, "LineaRom", and his agent Alesso Sundas has produced promotional photos of Ahmetovic's face with the caption "Don't be like me!". With politicians urging an inquiry, Justice Minister Clemente Mastella said he would investigate whether "such lucrative activity" was compatible with Ahmetovic's sentence. But Ahmetovic's agent was unrepentant. "I'll hire out Ahmetovic for club appearances at 3,000 euros a night. Why do I do this? Because I took a gamble -- to make a star of a person who has committed a crime. I'm not ashamed. It's my job," he told newspaper Corriere della Sera. From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 18:20:45 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:20:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services In-Reply-To: <527149.45027.qm@web35613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <378674.3154.qm@web31307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not fair.... Italy is a fine country in many ways... there are certain peculiar problems, more to do with culture and the way we deal with situations than anything else.... Yes, pay for scientists is absurdly low, true...but do you know what? I end up with zero dollars every month here in the US... and I make at least 3 times what scientists in Italy make... I had to leave the USA and go to Italy for an important surgery because my expensive USA's medical insurance would not cover the latest type of treatment and I had to pay a crazily high co-pay. In Italy they had an even more advanced treatment and it was completely free ! and my brother shows me every day fantastic foods on the webcam.... he has nice meals with his family every day, genuine food, and the familiar ties and friendship there are amazing... while I sit in my car eating Taco Bell in many ways Italian life is so much better in terms of things that are important than here in the USA... if you want to do science, sure, USA is the place, more money, less bureaucracy, and so on... Amara explained it, for a foreigner is tough to live in Italy, but Italians are not leaving easily Italy and if they do they miss it to death.... They way to deal with bureaucracy in Italy is not to give it much credit at all... we know that rule are meant to be broken and you survive with such an attitude...it is controlled chaos, and chaos is the matrix of creation, quite literally in Italy... When I came here in the USA I brought with me such a mentality and almost killed me, because while I was quite adept to survive in Italy, my way of thinking and seeing things didn't work here at all. I was astonished by the way people take seriously bureaucracy, authorities, and deadlines and so on. It was very stressful and depressing. People seemed cold and distant, I basically still don't have many American friends, mostly people I know or work with... Yes, I have a nice house, I would have to be a millionaire in Italy to afford it, and I can do my science without asking mom to cook my meals and give me a roof on my head, but.... and Italy as a scientific and technological country is not bad at all... many space missions have important devices and components designed and built in Italy, Even modules of the space station, the recent Cassini mission and so on... Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maseratti..anybody ?? McLauren engineers had to steal stuff from Ferrari to be competitive and they got caught and right now they are in trouble... It is a very peculiar country... It has always been.... and still many wonderful things were created there and still are created... on the other hand in Italy we have 5 times less homicide than in USA, we don't have people suing you if you look them wrong and so on.... There are sidewalks in Italy!!! And downtowns with people !! Beauty everywhere !! so come on people .... John wrote: i am astonished about the state of modern italy. They sound like a third world nation (and something out of the classic film, brazil) . I wonder what their neighbors think of them. The ancient romans must be spinning in their graves! John grigg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Nov 29 19:03:00 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:03:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071129190300.GT4005@leitl.org> On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:10:56PM -0700, Amara Graps wrote: > Giulio: > >I must admit that in Amara's situation I would not have even thought > >of writing letters to anyone. I would just have canceled the bank > >account or credit card associated to the services to discontinue, and > >left the country without leaving a forwarding address. The > >"authorities" would have acted, if ever, 50 or 60 years later, which > >is a problem only if our immortality aspirations come true. Unfortunately Giulio is no longer with us, both on exi-chat and wta-talk. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 29 19:25:06 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:25:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from the other side Message-ID: giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >It is horrible that people in a state agency like Poste Italiane >stole your stuff. One more brown envelope received today. The edge again was ripped open, and this one is completely enclosed in a plastic bag, with the words printed on the brown envelope: "Received in Damaged Condition at NY ISC, 11430 NY" But the contents were intact. Thank you, United States Postal Service. So out of 22 envelopes (2 kg each), 7 were torn open, of which one's contents are gone, and two (those are papers to help me with dust charging calculations) are still missing. A 41% damage/theft/loss rate. >This why whenever I travel I carry my notebooks and laptop with me. I remind you that I was exhausted, making an international move, near the holiday time, in the winter, desperately broke, carrying an extra bag of xeroxes of every piece of identification that I had from my wallet-purse theft 2.5 weeks before. I was hand carrying two laptops (one old one, whose memory chip failed in the week after I arrived, and a new-used one to replace it). Christmas presents and winter clothes and my bicycle and all of its equipment and other valuables (jewelry) in addition to cooking ware and items to start my new life were among the luggage sitting on the ground by the Lufthansa/Rome Fiumicino baggage handlers. I'm only one person, and I could only carry so many things. My notes and research projects were 43 kg extra of materials that I was in the middle of using for two deadlines (now late) that I trusted wrongly to Poste Italiane. It doesn't help me to cry about it, even though I already have. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From scerir at libero.it Thu Nov 29 21:16:30 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:16:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services References: <378674.3154.qm@web31307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c832cd$1d25a530$03b91f97@archimede> giovanni ha scritto: > Not fair.... > Italy is a fine country in many ways... But it seems that the HDIndex is going down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index its birth rate is low http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate and if we look at the *dramatic* figure 1 (here) http://www.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/non_calendario/20060801_00/testoin tegrale.pdf and the following figures 2 and 3, we also realize that the present birth rate might be 'supported' (possibly) by the population of immigrants. I'm not saying that Italy is not a fine country in many ways. I'm saying that something strange is happening ... s. From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Nov 29 22:05:59 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:05:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] simulation Message-ID: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/19767/ =================================== Wednesday, November 28, 2007 A Working Brain Model A computer simulation could eventually allow neuroscience to be carried out in silico. By Duncan Graham-Rowe An ambitious project to create an accurate computer model of the brain has reached an impressive milestone. Scientists in Switzerland working with IBM researchers have shown that their computer simulation of the neocortical column, arguably the most complex part of a mammal's brain, appears to behave like its biological counterpart. By demonstrating that their simulation is realistic, the researchers say, these results suggest that an entire mammal brain could be completely modeled within three years, and a human brain within the next decade. snip From stefan.pernar at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:07:19 2007 From: stefan.pernar at gmail.com (Stefan Pernar) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:07:19 +0800 Subject: [ExI] [Evol, Soc] Survival of the Selfless In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <944947f20711291407u47f2e36bwb1040cf142c16957@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 5:21 AM, wrote: > "The consensus that formed in the 1960s turned group selection into a > pariah concept, taught primarily as an example of how not to think. > Interpreting behaviours as "for the good of the group" was said to be > just plain wrong. Inclusive fitness theory (also called kin > selection), evolutionary game theory and selfish gene theory were all > developed to explain the evolution of apparently were all developed to > explain the evolution of apparently altruistic behaviours in > individualistic terms, without invoking group selection." > > < > http://evolution.binghamton.edu/dswilson/resources/publications_resources/New%20Scientist.pdf > > > The matter of group selection on the genetic level is very controversial. On the cognitive level of memes however it is very different. On page 85 of Jame5 point out for example that: "Culture is the byproduct of an animal's acceptance of a shared moral-ethical meme complex to enable social collaboration in large groups." Later in the book I broaden the concept of a 'moral-ethical meme complex' to include all kinds of beliefs and assert that said shared beliefs are fitness indicators relevant for inter group competition. As a consequence groups with fitter belief systems prosper while groups with unfit belief systems either adapt or perish. For a quick introduction to my thoughts on this issue I suggest reading my paper on friendly AI theoryor Jame5 pages 69 and following. With the advent of human thought the focus of evolution shifted away from a genetic level and moved to an evolution of ideas and concepts about the world that gave rise to new ideas etc. The genes, dominant fitness determining information-carrying vehicles up to that point became secondary. The decisive difference between the Homo Sapiens and other primates was the particularly useful ability to transfer these memes to other members of the group, including their young, by effective communication in the form of speech. >From that time forward, evolution on the genetic level slowly began to retreat and eventually became secondary as fitness indicators in humans as memes started to have an ever larger impact in determining an individual's fitness in the group as well as on an inter group level. The evolution of memes went on though the Stone Age and various metal ages on a material level until it shifted toward harnessing more energy with the first steam engine in the late eighteenth century. What followed was the Industrial Revolution. Then came the first computers that eventually triggered the Information Age. In summary: Human groups act as super organisms on the basis of shared beliefs with evolution continuing on the level of beliefs (memes). Example: Captitalism vs Communism The cold war was a period of conflict between two groups with largely different belief systems. In the blue corner mostly capitalist democracies and in the red corner mostly communist dictatorships. Capitalism eventually 'won' as its belief system happened to allocate resources with alternative uses more efficiently and effectively. By now the former eastern block largely abandoned the less fit ideology and is moving on. Example: Market Economy In market economies companies can be seen as groups competing for the scarce resource money. A company's culture, policies, processes, intellectual property are its beliefs and its staff form that companies embodiment as a group. Companies compete in the market place, act, adapt, learn and form alliances. Those with fitter belief systems survive and flourish while those that are less fit go bankrupt and 'die'. And so evolution continues. More also at http://www.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/home.html Kind regards, Stefan -- Stefan Pernar 3-E-101 Silver Maple Garden #6 Cai Hong Road, Da Shan Zi Chao Yang District 100015 Beijing P.R. CHINA Mobil: +86 1391 009 1931 Skype: Stefan.Pernar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 23:16:52 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:16:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> We need a distributed, h+-community spawned, neuronal simulation project. - Bryan From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 23:06:31 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: <20071129190300.GT4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <686366.27047.qm@web31309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> but Giulio is right that is the Italian way to deal with the stupidity of bureaucracy: just ignore it.... Eugen Leitl wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 06:10:56PM -0700, Amara Graps wrote: > Giulio: > >I must admit that in Amara's situation I would not have even thought > >of writing letters to anyone. I would just have canceled the bank > >account or credit card associated to the services to discontinue, and > >left the country without leaving a forwarding address. The > >"authorities" would have acted, if ever, 50 or 60 years later, which > >is a problem only if our immortality aspirations come true. Unfortunately Giulio is no longer with us, both on exi-chat and wta-talk. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 23:13:32 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] abandon all services In-Reply-To: <000701c832b3$48815770$2cba1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <709748.38961.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yeah, Italy has changed a lot since we got invaded by people from East Europe and Africa....I used to argue with my dad that it was their right to come here, because as Italians we have migrated to other countries so much...but I'm changing my opinion.... notice the guy in the article mentioned by scerir is rom gypsy not an Italian really... scerir wrote: > principle of actuality-effectivity of punishment I mean ..... there are stories like this, almost every day ..... s. Drunk-driver kicks up stink with perfume profits Thu 29 Nov 2007, 16:26 GMT http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUKL2916418520071129 ROME (Reuters) - An Italian man convicted for KILLING FOUR teenagers while driving drunk has brought out his own gypsy-branded fashion line, raising questions about whether such activities are compatible with his sentence. Marco Ahmetovic, a 22-year-old member of the Roma or gypsy minority, has hired an agent to market a range of perfumes, watches, jeans and sunglasses. He was sentenced to 6-1/2 years detention but, in a controversial ruling, can spend most of that time UNDER HOUSE ARREST in return for cooperating [?????] with the court. So far no retail outlet has taken up the brand and it is only available on the auction site Ebay, with his watches priced at 159 euros each. Ahmetovic, who killed the four teenage boys in April after driving his van onto a pavement while under the influence of alcohol, said he did not intend to profit from "the shameful things that I have done". Each product is stamped with the brand label, "LineaRom", and his agent Alesso Sundas has produced promotional photos of Ahmetovic's face with the caption "Don't be like me!". With politicians urging an inquiry, Justice Minister Clemente Mastella said he would investigate whether "such lucrative activity" was compatible with Ahmetovic's sentence. But Ahmetovic's agent was unrepentant. "I'll hire out Ahmetovic for club appearances at 3,000 euros a night. Why do I do this? Because I took a gamble -- to make a star of a person who has committed a crime. I'm not ashamed. It's my job," he told newspaper Corriere della Sera. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 30 00:10:38 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:10:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services Message-ID: giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >but Giulio is right that is the Italian way to deal with the >stupidity of >bureaucracy: just ignore it.... Well, there's an attitude that will fix the problems! Do nothing and it will solve itself, right? Or maybe all simply like to watch the fuga di cervelli during the last 60 years. Entertainment of Dante's Comedies and Tragedies. To the Italian transhumanists: Your biggest dreams will not go very far until you fix your country's infrastructure and give some support to the next generation of scientists. This generation, in my opinion, is lost. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 30 00:18:05 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:18:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1196381863_3648@S1.cableone.net> At 04:16 PM 11/29/2007, Bryan wrote: >We need a distributed, h+-community spawned, neuronal simulation >project. Why? I.e., to what end? Keith From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 00:43:50 2007 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:43:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <1196381863_3648@S1.cableone.net> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> <1196381863_3648@S1.cableone.net> Message-ID: <200711291843.50390.kanzure@gmail.com> A distributed, open source brain simulation project could have many uses: scientific understanding, pushing for "open minds", a particularly long-term goal for the h+ programming community to work with, etc. Not everybody (read: you) have to support the concept, of course. - Bryan From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 00:51:38 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Abandon all services In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <416618.21082.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, all what I'm saying is that "when in Rome do like the Romans" I'm not saying this is the best way to deal with any problem at all, and from a personal point of view my solution in the end was to leave...because I wanted to do science... And this is why I put up with the problems I have here in USA...because in the end the benefits of this country are much more than the problems... but in Italy you learn how to deal with stupidity of the bureaucracy just doing certain things...like here in the USA I had to learn than when somebody tells " How are you ?" the answer is not " today I'm sad, happy or whatever is happening to you..." but another meaningless " How are you?" that in Italy would be considered absurd (if somebody asks "Come stai" they want to know how you really are.... But I agree things need to change in Italy and everywhere, politically, economically, philosophically, we want to change everything everywhere, transhumanism as I understand it is a global revolution... Amara Graps wrote: giovanni santost santostasigio at yahoo.com : >but Giulio is right that is the Italian way to deal with the >stupidity of >bureaucracy: just ignore it.... Well, there's an attitude that will fix the problems! Do nothing and it will solve itself, right? Or maybe all simply like to watch the fuga di cervelli during the last 60 years. Entertainment of Dante's Comedies and Tragedies. To the Italian transhumanists: Your biggest dreams will not go very far until you fix your country's infrastructure and give some support to the next generation of scientists. This generation, in my opinion, is lost. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From santostasigio at yahoo.com Fri Nov 30 00:57:55 2007 From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:57:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <200711291843.50390.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <299088.60842.qm@web31314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think actually it is a good idea in general, would be nice if us as a group have some project to work together instead of just talking about different interesting issues (that is useful for use) we also could work on some little contribution ot make the singularity happen...I like the idea or similar ones... Bryan Bishop wrote: A distributed, open source brain simulation project could have many uses: scientific understanding, pushing for "open minds", a particularly long-term goal for the h+ programming community to work with, etc. Not everybody (read: you) have to support the concept, of course. - Bryan _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 30 03:02:13 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:02:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <200711291843.50390.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> <1196381863_3648@S1.cableone.net> <200711291843.50390.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1196391711_872@S3.cableone.net> At 05:43 PM 11/29/2007, Bryan wrote: >A distributed, open source brain simulation project could have many >uses: scientific understanding, pushing for "open minds", a >particularly long-term goal for the h+ programming community to work >with, etc. Not everybody (read: you) have to support the concept, of >course. It's a worthy goal of course, but I think quite a way from being a project that could be done distributed, at least not on current machines and the current net if this bunch of researchers has the estimates of the machine capacity and bandwidth required correct. To scope the problem, the area of the brain surface is about quarter of a square meter, the cortical columns are spaced about 0.03 mm in a hexagonal array. Figure about a thousand of them to the sq mm. There are a million sq mm to a sq m. So if you had 250 H+ programmers, each of them would have to be managing a million cortical column simulations. Please check my numbers. If you have any suggestions about how to reduced the difficulty of the project, please post them. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 30 03:39:19 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:39:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <1196391711_872@S3.cableone.net> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> <1196381863_3648@S1.cableone.net> <200711291843.50390.kanzure@gmail.com> <1196391711_872@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: <1196393937_1675@S3.cableone.net> At 08:02 PM 11/29/2007, I wrote: >At 05:43 PM 11/29/2007, Bryan wrote: snip >To scope the problem, the area of the brain surface is about quarter >of a square meter, the cortical columns are spaced about 0.03 mm in a >hexagonal array. Figure about a thousand of them to the sq mm. There >are a million sq mm to a sq m. So if you had 250 H+ programmers, each >of them would have to be managing a million cortical column simulations. > >Please check my numbers. http://williamcalvin.com/bk9/ From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Fri Nov 30 01:00:36 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:00:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] simulation Message-ID: <380-22007115301036802@M2W006.mail2web.com> From: Bryan Bishop >A distributed, open source brain simulation project could have many >uses: scientific understanding, pushing for "open minds", a >particularly long-term goal for the h+ programming community to work >with, etc. I like it. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 04:39:44 2007 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:09:44 +1030 Subject: [ExI] from the other side In-Reply-To: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> Tip #349: Computer backups are now insanely easy. (This is way after the fact for everyone involved, and doesn't help when you have a real paper based notebook.) If you use a computer, and you keep valuable work on it that you wouldn't want to lose, consider an online backup service. I personally use DataDepositbox.com, but it looks like there are now better services. A particular example is Carbonite: http://carbonite.com/ US $49.95 per year per computer, to back up everything on your Windows PC to their secure online, offsite storage. These services backup everything initially. After that, they notice if you change any file, and back up the new version as soon as possibly (ie: in the next few minutes usually). You just sign up, install some software, configure it if you are a bit of a geek (but that's not really necessary I think) and forget about it. If you lose your machine (disk dies, machine stolen/lost, etc), or just delete some files you shouldn't have, you just get online and download them from the backup site. Easy! You'll need a pretty serious always on broadband connection, but that's nigh on ubiquitous these days. If you are not doing this, try it out! Since using datadepositbox, I've had to change laptops (for unrelated reasons), and found the easiest way was to just get the new one, restore everything that mattered from backup onto the new one, and I just reformatted the old one. So easy! (note: Linux and Mac users: Carbonite wont work for you, but one of the other equivalent services might, have a hunt). -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com On 30/11/2007, giovanni santost wrote: > Hi Amara, > sorry for your notebook. > This why whenever I travel I carry my notebooks and laptop with me. > I feel exactly the same, that I would rather loose money and precious > valuable than my research notes or codes. > It is horrible that people in a state agency like Poste Italiane stole your > stuff. > But I had stuff stolen in USA too. > In fact, similarly to you, I lost my dissertation original files and 3 years > worth of research material, stuff that was stored in a laptop that I left > overnight in my office at a college in Baton Rouge. Somebody with access to > the offices stole it. Of course, I was very stupid in not saving the > material on a CD. > The college authorities were not able to find out who did it. > So there are bad people everywhere. > But again, I'm very happy you are at home. > I hope you will find peace and happiness. > Giovanni > > > > Amara Graps wrote: > Hi extropes, > > For what it's worth, I arrived in Boulder on November 17, with only my > toothbrush and my new passport and my extra carry-on of photocopies of > my identifications as a side-effect from the large theft of my > wallet-purse on October 29. I'm still shell-shocked and disoriented > because after I arrived on the 17th, I left on the 20th (12 hours after > my luggage from Rome finally arrived) to San Jose to have new driver's > license and social security (like the codice fiscale) cards. Those two > things took 15 minutes in total. I spent Thanksgiving with my sister and > saw two close friends (Hi Samantha), and returned to Boulder on the evening > of November 23. I was only in Boulder one day, however, before I went to > San Antonio, Texas and saw two more friends (Hi Damien and Barbara) and > to attend the 'orientation' for my new job. The 'mother ship' (I call it) > of Southwest Research Institute is located there. > > So now I'm in Boulder, and probably know Denver Airport far more than > I know the town that I moved to, even though I technically moved to > Boulder 10 days ago. In my home, I have a futon mattress, two lamps, > enough warm clothes, cooking-ware, one Mac G4 laptop: useless with a > broken memory cache on the logic board that will cost $700 to replace, > a two seasons newer Mac G4 laptop to replace it, but completely > unconfigured so far with the exception of this email (Eudora) program > and Firefox browser. It seems that I picked up this newer computer from > my UK colleagues (six weeks ago), where they were storing it for me from > my UK Ebay purchase, just in time. I will not try to salvage my old > G4 laptop Mac. > > The tragedy of my International-Move-From-Hell is my notebook of two > years of calculations of my > water-on-the-terrestrial-planets research > project. The notebook is gone, a result of my mistake to send it through > Poste Italiane. I consider it a much larger tragedy than the theft of > all of my identifications in my wallet-purse, three weeks before. This > notebook was in one of 22 brown padded envelopes that I had sent of my > in-progress writing and research projects. After the moving company > picked up my home, I still needed to send these notes and notebooks. I > couldn't use Poste Vaticano because I didn't have any more my > identifications after the wallet-purse theft to enter the Vatican. DHL > is expensive and then (and now) and I'm still desperately broke (that's > _why_ I needed to leave Italy). I figured because I had no bad > experiences in the past 5 years with brown padded envelopes (only boxes; > seven in the last 5 years were stolen), I could trust that Poste > Italiane could send these. I was wrong. Four arrived to Boulder with > major tears at the edges, with two of them, taped up by the US Postal > Service a second time. Of those two, most of the contents had fallen > out: that was my thick calculations notebook; which had my name and > email address and phone number, by the way. On the more recent packages, > one of the postal clerks on the US side had written: 'All Closed'. I am > still waiting for 3 more padded envelopes, but, if those were stolen > by the thieves at Poste Italiane too, then at least those contents are > orders of magnitude less valuable to my than my research notebook. > > So what can I say? I will have the opportunity to sharpen up my > arguments for that project, but some significant part of it is > irreplaceable. I doubt it was an accident with so many torn; the thieves > at Poste Italiane were probably looking for valuable Christmas presents, > and I probably disappointed them. Who else would find scribbles and > photocopies of journal articles valuable? > > I will tell the relocation company not to let their customers moving in > or out of Italy to use Poste Italiane. The only good thing I can say > about my move, so far, is that at least the baggage handlers at Rome > Fiumicino airport didn't steal my stuff while it was on the ground for > those two days, since my four pieces of luggage was carrying alot of > valuable things. I have my bicycle, in which I have my old Heidelberg > riding lifestyle back. And of course, the SwRI people here are > wonderful. It's incredibly nice to get so much support and interest > from my workplace after my last years of feeling like I was thrown to > the wolves. > > Amara > > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > ________________________________ > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 30 04:24:30 2007 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:24:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services In-Reply-To: <001901c832cd$1d25a530$03b91f97@archimede> Message-ID: <200711300451.lAU4p7Cd025002@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir ... > ...if we look at the *dramatic* figure 1 (here) > http://www.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/non_calendario/20060801_00/testo > integrale.pdf... > I'm not saying that Italy is not a fine country in many ways. I'm saying > that something strange is happening ... > > s. Birth control pills were introduced in Italy in 1964. Clearly they are popular with the locals. spike From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 30 05:12:40 2007 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:12:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] First reversal of aging in an organ claimed ... Message-ID: <029f01c8330f$a1eeffe0$6401a8c0@brainiac> "These find?ings sug?gest that ag?ing is not just a re?sult of wear and tear, but is al?so the con?se?quence of a con?tin?u?ally ac?tive ge?net?ic pro?gram that might be blocked for im?prov?ing hu?man health," said Chang. http://www.world-science.net/othernews/071128_skin-aging.htm Olga From moulton at moulton.com Fri Nov 30 05:09:31 2007 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:09:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" free online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1196399371.7815.468.camel@localhost.localdomain> Let me provide some context. As I recall the book was first posted on the web in May or June. The book was nominated for the Hugo Best Novel award. The Hugo Awards and other awards are presented each year at the World Science Fiction Convention (aka Worldcon). Worldcon was held in Yokohoma and it was great fun. And Rainbows End was the winner. I strongly recommend reading the book. I have read it twice and enjoyed it both times. There are many different Hugo Award catagories; best novel, novella, etc. Although it is not required many nominated works are placed on the web for the benefit of the eligible voters to read. In a very few cases they are put behind an authentication so that only the voters can see the work but usually it is placed on the web where anyone can read it. In my case I had read it in hardback before it was on the web having awaited it eagerly after I had first heard Vernor say that he had turned in the manuscript. There are several publishers and authors that use the web to a variety of interesting manners. Cory Doctorow (published by Tor-Forge) has been publishing many of his works on the web at the same time as the print version appears. Baen Books has put many of their titles on in a free web library. Plus there are many more than there is space to list. The 2008 Worldcon will be in Denver and 2009 will be in Montreal. For more information on Worldcon see: http://www.worldcon.org/ For information on the Hugo awards: http://www.worldcon.org/hugos.html http://www.sfawardswatch.com/?page_id=9 Fred From eugen at leitl.org Fri Nov 30 07:33:25 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:33:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] simulation In-Reply-To: <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> References: <1196373944_16551@S4.cableone.net> <200711291716.52804.kanzure@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071130073325.GB4005@leitl.org> On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 05:16:52PM -0600, Bryan Bishop wrote: > We need a distributed, h+-community spawned, neuronal simulation > project. Won't work. WAN ain't no InfiniBand, and BlueGene's can run rings around it. Nano at home would work, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From scerir at libero.it Fri Nov 30 10:28:54 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:28:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services References: <200711300451.lAU4p7Cd025002@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <000501c8333b$d1357e10$e0b81f97@archimede> > > I'm not saying that Italy is not a fine country in many ways. > > I'm saying that something strange is happening ... > > s. > Birth control pills were introduced in Italy in 1964. > Clearly they are popular with the locals. > spike :-) According to the paper below several factors modulate (in OECD countries) the birth rate. It seems that the introduction of pills is not (?) the most important. There are many different economical factors and many social-sociological poisons too. It is perhaps interesting to point out the difference (see figure on page 1 of the paper) between the trends in Southern Europe (esp. Italy) and the trends in Northern Europe (and US). http://www.vision-forum.org/filedascaricare/Famiglia/fertility_english_last. pdf From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 13:11:38 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:11:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] from the other side In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20711300511y2984054bv281a7a261ea91b64@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 5:39 AM, Emlyn wrote: > US $49.95 per year per computer, to back up everything on your Windows > PC to their secure online, offsite storage. *Windows* PC?!! :-( Stefano Vaj From eugen at leitl.org Fri Nov 30 13:40:11 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:40:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] from the other side In-Reply-To: <580930c20711300511y2984054bv281a7a261ea91b64@mail.gmail.com> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20711300511y2984054bv281a7a261ea91b64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071130134011.GL4005@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 02:11:38PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Nov 30, 2007 5:39 AM, Emlyn wrote: > > US $49.95 per year per computer, to back up everything on your Windows > > PC to their secure online, offsite storage. > > *Windows* PC?!! :-( You can simply use a WebDAV share (works also over SSL), which is supported by any system known to man. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 30 13:26:10 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:26:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ARTS: Emotional Systems - Florence Message-ID: <20071130132616.UUDI12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> If anyone is in Florence, this exhibition is worth visiting: Palazzo Strozzi (Florence, Italy) announces the exhibition EMOTIONAL SYSTEMS from 30 November 2007 to 3 February 2008 http://www.palazzostrozzi.org/Sezione.jsp?idSezione=274&idSezioneRif=165 "The event marks the inauguration of the CCCS - Centre For Contemporary Culture Centre La Strozzina at the Palazzo Strozzi, a space created as a platform for the vast range of practices that characterize contemporary art and culture. "The inaugural installation - Emotional Systems, contemporary art between emotion and reason, 30 November 2007 to 3 February - develops in three clearly distinct yet complementary phases: an Exhibition, a Publication and a programme of Lectures designed to investigate the topic of emotions, proposing a reinterpretation of the correlation between the contemporary artist, the work of art and the user, in the light of the latest discoveries in the neurological sciences about the human brain and its effects on the emotions. ... "The artists in the exhibition include: Bill Viola (USA), William Kentridge (South Africa), Yves Netzhammer (Switzerland), Katharina Grosse (Germany), Christian Nold (Great Britain), Maurice Benayoun (France), Teresa Margolles (Mexico) Andrea Ferrara alias Ongakuaw (Italy) and the poets Elisa Biagini, Antonella Anedda and Valerio Magrelli." I am a fan of Bill Viola's work. His videos are stunning expositions of human interaction and reflection. http://www.billviola.com/ Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty of Technology School of Computing, Communications and Electronics Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 30 13:58:26 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:58:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com > References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 10:39 PM 11/29/2007, Emlyn wrote: >Tip #349: Computer backups are now insanely easy. > >(This is way after the fact for everyone involved, and doesn't help >when you have a real paper based notebook.) > >If you use a computer, and you keep valuable work on it that you >wouldn't want to lose, consider an online backup service. I personally >use DataDepositbox.com, but it looks like there are now better >services. > >A particular example is Carbonite: > >http://carbonite.com/ Thanks for posting this Emlyn. You just reminded me that I have to do this. Does anyone else have an online backup service that they recommend? (I'm on hold with Carbonite right now to ask a few questions.) Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - University of Plymouth - Faculty of Technology School of Computing, Communications and Electronics Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 30 14:00:31 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:00:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] First reversal of aging in an organ claimed ... In-Reply-To: <029f01c8330f$a1eeffe0$6401a8c0@brainiac> References: <029f01c8330f$a1eeffe0$6401a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20071130140037.QNQZ28763.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 11:12 PM 11/29/2007, Ogla wrote: >"These find?ings sug?gest that ag?ing is not just a re?sult of wear and >tear, but is al?so the con?se?quence of a con?tin?u?ally ac?tive ge?net?ic >pro?gram that might be blocked for im?prov?ing hu?man health," said Chang. > >http://www.world-science.net/othernews/071128_skin-aging.htm This is v good news. Natasha From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 14:52:44 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:52:44 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2007 1:58 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Thanks for posting this Emlyn. You just reminded me that I have to do > this. Does anyone else have an online backup service that they recommend? > (I'm on hold with Carbonite right now to ask a few questions.) > Apparently Google has plans to store all our data files online. Google Plans Service to Store Users' Data By KEVIN J. DELANEY and VAUHINI VARA November 27, 2007 Google is preparing a service that would let users store on its computers essentially all of the files they might keep on their personal-computer hard drives -- such as word-processing documents, digital music, video clips and images, say people familiar with the matter. The service could let users access their files via the Internet from different computers and mobile devices when they sign on with a password, and share them online with friends. It could be released as early as a few months from now, one of the people said. The Mountain View, Calif., company plans to provide some free storage, with additional storage allotments available for a fee, say the people familiar with the matter. Planned pricing isn't known. Google already effectively offers storage for consumers' files through Web applications such as its Docs word-processing, spreadsheet and presentation applications and its Gmail email. Users can upload photos to its Picasa Web Albums photo-hosting service, which provides one gigabyte of free storage. ---------------------- The article also has a table of some similar services. BillK From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Nov 30 15:01:11 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:01:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services In-Reply-To: <000501c8333b$d1357e10$e0b81f97@archimede> References: <200711300451.lAU4p7Cd025002@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <000501c8333b$d1357e10$e0b81f97@archimede> Message-ID: <1196434849_9198@S4.cableone.net> At 03:28 AM 11/30/2007, scerir wrote: sni >According to the paper below several factors >modulate (in OECD countries) the birth rate. > >It seems that the introduction of pills >is not (?) the most important. > >There are many different economical factors >and many social-sociological poisons too. > >It is perhaps interesting to point out the >difference (see figure on page 1 of the paper) >between the trends in Southern Europe (esp. Italy) >and the trends in Northern Europe (and US). > >http://www.vision-forum.org/filedascaricare/Famiglia/fertility_english_last. >pdf Interesting paper. Humans live so far from the EEA in which they were shaped that it might be very hard to explain the fall in birth rates through evolutionary psychology. On the other hand, EP does account for drug addiction and that was not selected in the stone age either. Of course the very densely populated parts of the world could cope with a bit of population decline. I am thinking about Japan in particular. It would be interesting to split out the immigrant populations in those places, particularly the Islamic immigrants, to see what effect culture has on birth rate. The implication of the article is that governments would like the birth rate to come up to replacement. Keith From eugen at leitl.org Fri Nov 30 15:05:55 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:05:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20071130150555.GN4005@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 02:52:44PM +0000, BillK wrote: > On Nov 30, 2007 1:58 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > Thanks for posting this Emlyn. You just reminded me that I have to do > > this. Does anyone else have an online backup service that they recommend? > > (I'm on hold with Carbonite right now to ask a few questions.) > > > > Apparently Google has plans to store all our data files online. > Those of you who've got Macs might check out http://www.drijf.net/dototto/ http://www.tnpi.net/wiki/Do_It_Yourself_.Mac etc. Simple ftp would work, too, using ftp://user:password at ftp.somewhere.com Dunno about sftp. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 15:12:21 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:12:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] from the other side In-Reply-To: <20071130134011.GL4005@leitl.org> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20711300511y2984054bv281a7a261ea91b64@mail.gmail.com> <20071130134011.GL4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <580930c20711300712i29fad7fare27407238745bfa6@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 2:40 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 02:11:38PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: > > *Windows* PC?!! :-( > > You can simply use a WebDAV share (works also over SSL), > which is supported by any system known to man. Thank you, even though my admittedly cryptical remark was intended to express scandal at the fact that somebody amongst us is a Windows user... :-) Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 15:23:22 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:23:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 3:52 PM, BillK wrote: > On Nov 30, 2007 1:58 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > Thanks for posting this Emlyn. You just reminded me that I have to do > > this. Does anyone else have an online backup service that they recommend? > > (I'm on hold with Carbonite right now to ask a few questions.) > > > > Apparently Google has plans to store all our data files online. > You can already use, for free, Gmail, through a Firefox extension called Gspace. Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Nov 30 18:01:10 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:01:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.co m> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> At 09:23 AM 11/30/2007, Stefano wrote: >You can already use, for free, Gmail, through a Firefox extension >called Gspace. Silly me, but I feel more confident contracting out, signing a legal agreement and actually paying for a services that is going to hold all my private/personal material. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, University of Plymouth, UK Transhumanist Arts & Culture Thinking About the Future If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Nov 30 19:14:27 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 20:14:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <20071130191427.GR4005@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 12:01:10PM -0600, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Silly me, but I feel more confident contracting out, signing a legal > agreement and actually paying for a services that is going to hold all > my private/personal material. In case you've picked up Macs meanwhile, a .Mac subscription is not that a bad value for the money (I wouldn't do it myself, but only because I would roll my own, which is a complete overkill for most). Open source people could just rent a virtual server somewhere (EC2 might be an option, though there might be better bargains out there), and dump their stuff there, e.g. with rsync over ssh, or a rsync script which does the equivalent of Leopard's Time Machine for free. Me, I don't trust my data with anyone. After that very unconstitutional data retention law was passed on 9th November hereabouts, I've terminated my mobile contract for an anonymous prepaid, will order an OpenMoko once the consumer 2nd-generation hardware is out since I don't trust firmware I can't control, am using Tor for sundry terrorist activities, tinkering with VPNs, specially VPNs into overseas jurisdiction compartments who don't render data upon Keyser. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From ka.aly at luxsci.net Fri Nov 30 20:45:17 2007 From: ka.aly at luxsci.net (Khaled Aly) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:45:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <4750765D.5050208@luxsci.net> And you can always encrypt your backed-up volume to ensure its security. You can also use an external storage device to do incremental, differential, or complete backups of both your system and your data (separation is recommended as it is easier to recover your system and you wouldn't want to loose both of them simultaneously upon a disk crash, I use two separate disks in my PC). Local storage cost is competitive to that of online. You can backup with a push-of-a-button, which I don't like since it might depend on unknown software behind the button (I mean it could fail to restore when you most and only need that); or using a recognizable desktop software like "Acronis" (but then you store one or more 'coded' archive files, and you're only sure upon your first restoration), or just simply doing a delete-copy-paste-etc. (most aggravating and disk consuming but also assuring as you get to see your files). You can also backup using a mass storage email service like gmail. Just protect your private data 'best' with PGP before submitting it to third parties. Regards Khaled Just for extropian thought, re trusted third parties: "If it is third, how could it be trusted!" :) Noting that, I did work for a trusted third party, and every network service provider is, where we took all stringent measures to protect out customers' privacy and security. Actually even security services may be outsourced. The decision is up to the user. Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 09:23 AM 11/30/2007, Stefano wrote: >> You can already use, for free, Gmail, through a Firefox extension >> called Gspace. > > Silly me, but I feel more confident contracting out, signing a legal > agreement and actually paying for a services that is going to hold all > my private/personal material. > > Natasha > > Natasha Vita-More > PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium - CAiiA, situated in the > Faculty of Technology, > School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, > University of Plymouth, UK > Transhumanist Arts & Culture > Thinking About the Future > > /If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the > circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study > what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then > that is an open system perspective. - /Buckminster Fuller > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Nov 30 21:20:30 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:20:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <4750765D.5050208@luxsci.net> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <4750765D.5050208@luxsci.net> Message-ID: <20071130212030.GW4005@leitl.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 10:45:17PM +0200, Khaled Aly wrote: > > And you can always encrypt your backed-up volume to ensure its You have either to use a server-side cryptographic filesystem, or encrypt everything client-side and/or push it out via a VPN. I don't really trust server-side cryptographic systems, unless I have proof of physical security and/or it's acertained by a tamper-proof hardware token (I have a smartcard USB dongle in one of my servers which could hold private keys, though I'm currently not using it, and there's a webcam inside my rack which however doesn't stream offsite yet -- the luxury of being a terrorist mole, ah). > security. You can also use an external storage device to do > incremental, differential, or complete backups of both your system and > your data (separation is recommended as it is easier to recover your > system and you wouldn't want to loose both of them simultaneously upon > a disk crash, I use two separate disks in my PC). Local storage cost > is competitive to that of online. You can backup with a It has to be offsite, though, orelse the secondary/backup failure would be causally entangled with whatever nuked your primary system (fire, lightning, thieves, SWAT, etc.). > push-of-a-button, which I don't like since it might depend on unknown > software behind the button (I mean it could fail to restore when you I much prefer known software, or at least stuff that fail-safes (I've just hooked up a 500 GByte external volume on Time Machine, to just see what it does -- btw, zfs write now works on Leopard bleeding edge). > most and only need that); or using a recognizable desktop software > like "Acronis" (but then you store one or more 'coded' archive files, > and you're only sure upon your first restoration), or just simply > doing a delete-copy-paste-etc. (most aggravating and disk consuming > but also assuring as you get to see your files). You can also backup > using a mass storage email service like gmail. Just protect your On another list this caused a (temporary?) account suspension due to violation of terms of use. Since gmail now offers you both POP3 and IMAP I suggest y'all use it, if you use for more than a sacrificial porn stash. > private data 'best' with PGP before submitting it to third parties. Apropos of nothing, fabricating MD5 collisions at least for Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) documents is trivial now (takes a bit 'o crunch on a single PS3). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 30 22:27:21 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:27:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] abandon all services Message-ID: Spike: >Birth control pills were introduced in Italy in 1964. Clearly they are >popular with the locals. Bzzzzt! No. (At least not in my former part of the world.) Amara (pasting an old message) ------- May 6, 2006 To: wta-talk at transhumanism.org From: Amara Graps Subject: [wta-talk] abortion cannot be ignored sky marsen sky_marsen at yahoo.com : >Contraceptives muck up your hormones (as do pregnancies), thanks for your good message, it was needed. Focusing on only the above sentence - In the 'mucking', contraceptives can help in the way you want, but you have to find a doctor who is willing to prescribe the contraceptive you need and who understands _how_ it can muck up the hormone system, because the effect is obviously huge (as is a pregnancy, as you point out). I had a gloriously good contraceptive that for 20 years smoothed out all of the cycle extremes that plagued me earlier in my teenage years. In the last few years when I entered a technology-backwater country and needed extra care (because I'm 45 and estrogen took a deep drop), I faced the range of inept doctors who refused me what was working well and instead wanted me to : try several different contraceptives with radically different hormone quantities, or who didn't want to prescribe any at all because they said that contraceptives were dangerous, or who 'didn't have experience with contraceptives themselves, so they didn't feel comfortable prescribing them' (these words came from the premier obstetrician in my town who is practicing delivering babies 20 years). And other birth control methods? It depends on the country, the region, the resources, the government's laws, the economic conditions, and the doctor's 'willingness'. I have a Rumanian friend who had a terrible time finding in Baden-Wurtemberg, Germany a doctor who was willing to give her an IUD, which is extremely common and widespread in her home country. I have similar stories of other girlfriends in various western countries facing a variety of difficulties for what we all think 'ought' to be a simple request, a simple procedure, no complications or shame attached. That's not the reality though. Birth control technology is extremely uneven even in so-called western countries, and even if the technology is there, the _implementation_ is lacking; it's often implemented by less-than-experienced or less-than-intelligent people, and unless you're a doctor yourself, you are at their mercy. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Research Scientist, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), Boulder, Colorado From ka.aly at luxsci.net Fri Nov 30 22:39:23 2007 From: ka.aly at luxsci.net (Khaled Aly) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:39:23 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <20071130212030.GW4005@leitl.org> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <4750765D.5050208@luxsci.net> <20071130212030.GW4005@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4750911B.1060405@luxsci.net> > Eugen Leitl wrote: > You have either to use a server-side cryptographic filesystem, > or encrypt everything client-side and/or push it out via a VPN. > Server side is fine if you can ensure that the way your private key is constructed strictly and trustfully occurs on your machine. I have verified one provider, somehow I got to ensure their algorithm is true. If you're speaking IPSec VPN, it should not matter if the content is already in crypt, provided the algorithm is trusted (like what's https vs. shtml). > It has to be offsite, though, orelse the secondary/backup failure would > be causally entangled with whatever nuked your primary system (fire, > lightning, thieves, SWAT, etc.). > Sure. Depends on the required capacity and environment (personal or pro). All of us ultimately prefer to keep their wallets and key chains inside their pockets, or close to their sight. But the car, we can only leave it in the garage, or the street if the first is unavailable. Then it's open to trust or whatever! >> most and only need that); or using a recognizable desktop software >> like "Acronis" (but then you store one or more 'coded' archive files, >> and you're only sure upon your first restoration), or just simply >> doing a delete-copy-paste-etc. (most aggravating and disk consuming >> but also assuring as you get to see your files). You can also backup >> using a mass storage email service like gmail. Just protect your >> > > On another list this caused a (temporary?) account suspension due > to violation of terms of use. Since gmail now offers you both > POP3 and IMAP I suggest y'all use it, if you use for more than > a sacrificial porn stash. > Please tell what exactly caused that so I could learn and pay attention, did you mean promotion of a product, I almost started to disclaim that but then I disregarded it. Several commercial names were quoted in the thread. You really should, as a heartily voted moderator, tell what should be avoided on a mail list in such occasion. What's different to you w.r.t. security among anything without 's', while even that does not guarantee absolute but it gives you a start point that it can only broken by a professional if feasible. >> private data 'best' with PGP before submitting it to third parties. >> > > Apropos of nothing, fabricating MD5 collisions at least for Adobe > Acrobat (.pdf) documents is trivial now (takes a bit 'o crunch > on a single PS3). > PGP gives you the choice of algorithms and key lengths (256, may be 512/1024-bit). Chances of cracking crypt reduces highly exponentially with key length as you sure know. When you encrypt a whole volume, the content is mixed and not just pdf or else. Please elaborate if you got more or contra on this. After all, we assume the attacker has limited resources. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ka.aly at luxsci.net Fri Nov 30 22:45:32 2007 From: ka.aly at luxsci.net (Khaled Aly) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:45:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071126120013.02306e08@satx.rr.com> References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00a801c83048$7796a8c0$45893cd1@pavilion> <7.0.1.0.2.20071126120013.02306e08@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4750928C.4010107@luxsci.net> Title sounds too abbreviating and attention catching, I don't think it's what the authors' precisely meant by the study. May I share some random thoughts about probability and perspectives. Mathematicians welcome to bring more vigor to these loose inquisitions ... How many processes govern evolution? What is developmental evolution with respect to evolution as a whole (for a non-biologist)? The study was conducted over a "small" sample of a small number of spices where the stochastic laws of large numbers do not apply (expectation is most accurate towards infinity). It was also limited to a limited number of those spices' body members. If evolution is deterministic at some level, we should be able to confirm for sure some features of some future generation of some living organism. Actually, is there anything no matter how simple 'really' deterministic? And if we could determine the infinite th moment (or all moments) of any random variable, not to mention a convoluted natural process, don't we just get its full distribution, which doesn't make it deterministic? Could an analogy be drown to continuous and discrete quantities, and which approximate which? One can count discrete apples but can never 'exactly' measure a mile or a micron, though both are discrete whole units. Isn't a digital computer made of analog devices using thresholds to resolve discreteness out of continuity, with a 'seemingly' digital clock that exponentially rises and falls and 'fluctuates' around its ensemble average level and frequency? How many agree that analog computers are more accurate than digital ones? Simply put, what exactly is the time anywhere anytime? Cheers ka Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:21 AM 11/26/2007 -0500, Dan wrote: > > >> I think the better way of putting it is it's blind -- regardless of >> whether the processes underlying it are stochastic or deterministic or a >> little of both. This means simply that it isn't forward-looking. >> > > As Robert Picone noted, the original article wasn't talking about > *evolution* (whatever that means), but made a drastically more > limited claim, namely: > > evolution in the nematode vulva occurred primarily through > deterministic mechanisms. > > defined structure are evolving, only two of forty factors were > random, while the others were at least somewhat convergent.> > > But suppose the question is regarded more generally. How do we *know* > evolutionary change does not sometimes contain a forward-looking > component, a kind of foresight or preemptive adaptation? The answer > seems obvious: firstly, because the altered future to which any > critter would have to be pre-adapted is unknown and unknowable; and > even if it were in principle calculable by an intelligence, the genes > don't have direct knowledge of the world, nor any means to calculate > probabilities, nor any means to modify themselves except via random > shufflings. > > But is all of this true? And how do we know it is? Has anyone put it > to the test? Might it explain certain aspects of life without doing > violence to what's already known? The proposition seems so outrageous > that I'd bet very few scientists in the last half century have ever > tried to model the question. > > Suppose some of the spare clock cycles of any complex brain were used > to model (i.e. imagine counterfactually) the benefits of certain > phenotypic changes in worlds somewhat different from here&now. > Absurd, of course, but if that were possible (say, if the Penrose > hypothesis is right, and brains are quantum computers), and if some > kinds of bio-feedback allowed microchanges at the cellular and > genomic levels that conduced to favoured phenotypes, might we see a > kind of Lamarckian aspect to evolution? > > Suppose further that some kinds of psi are real, that a sheaf of most > probably futures and their weightings can be glimpsed in advance, and > that a kind of anomalous perturbation or psychokinesis at the > microlevel can deform genomes to create phenotypes better fitted to > such imminent environments... Absurd, of course, everyone knows that, > but still--suppose it were the case... > > What sort of experiments have been done that would reveal such a > feature of evolution? > > Cutting off the foreskins of umpteen Jewish generations is NOT a > test, disproving any such effect by the lack of babies born without > foreskins. There's no life-and-death crisis connected with being born > with a foreskin; indeed, it's possible that in a culture where > circumcision is mandatory and numinous, being born without a foreskin > would make a boy freakish and disadvantaged. > > But one might make several preparations of a known bacterial or > murine population into which, at random or by preordained choice, > certain poisons or currently-undigestible-nutrients will be > introduced in two or three generations' time. Might there be an > anticipatory genomic shift? This sort of "precognitive" advance > adaptation would distinguish the eventual genome distribution from > that of control groups. (I'm no experimentalist; this might not be > the best way to test the idea.) > > Is there any cultural difference between human or other complex > mammal groups that might display such an effect unambiguously? The > question, to say it yet again, is absurd, of course--but it's > entertaining to think about how one might *test* such unthinkable > ideas, rather than simply dismissing them ex cathedra. > > Damien Broderick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 23:12:30 2007 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:12:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computer Backups In-Reply-To: <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> References: <795291.76223.qm@web31305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0711292039g26bf1336y962eaf96ff2545b@mail.gmail.com> <20071130135832.RZQX9427.hrndva-omta04.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> <580930c20711300723j4b872c9dldf162f96481de15d@mail.gmail.com> <20071130180116.BYL12162.hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com@natasha-39y28ni.natasha.cc> Message-ID: <580930c20711301512v4f2b9df9i8069e2a01e72110e@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 7:01 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > At 09:23 AM 11/30/2007, Stefano wrote: > > You can already use, for free, Gmail, through a Firefox extension called > Gspace. > Silly me, but I feel more confident contracting out, signing a legal > agreement and actually paying for a services that is going to hold all my > private/personal material. You are absolutely right, as far as sensitive data and the ability to claim for damages are concerned. But as an additional, free bck of ordinary files, no harm involved in having an Internet additional copy around. Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 30 23:31:39 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:31:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Evolution is not random,... In-Reply-To: <4750928C.4010107@luxsci.net> References: <200711252325.lAPNP6gr029125@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <394130.83672.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00a801c83048$7796a8c0$45893cd1@pavilion> <7.0.1.0.2.20071126120013.02306e08@satx.rr.com> <4750928C.4010107@luxsci.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071130172954.021e4278@satx.rr.com> At 12:45 AM 12/1/2007 +0200, Khaled Aly wrote: >The study was conducted over a "small" sample of a small number of >spices where the stochastic laws of large numbers do not apply >(expectation is most accurate towards infinity). It was also limited >to a limited number of those spices' body members. I assume you meant "species" not "spices"--and that you're a victim of a spellchecker's "correction"! Damien Broderick