From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 00:32:14 2007
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:32:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Media and memes, was: "Animal-monitoring modules"?
Message-ID: <29666bf30709301732t5cd0982epd1b7b4ed2a0ec13e@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/29/07, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I read once that the xenophobic meme phase seems to coincide with
> escapist fatasy being a popular entertainment genre.  When there is
> less fear, science fiction becomes more prevalent in entertainment.
> With that in mind (without rigorous proof) I was considering the
> recent thread about responsible singularity PR.
>
> Do we think entertainment media can/should be used to prepare the
> general public to accept a higher level of technological possibility?

I've never heard about a specific correlation between Fantasy and
xenophobic memes (and I'd love to see the actual research), but if you
think about it in general, there is definitely a growth in fantasy
media during wars, depressions, etc., because people need the mental
escape.  People needed to see Good triumph over Evil.  Comic books,
movies, pulp fiction, etc. certainly reflected this in the 20th
Century.  But fantasy wasn't just relegated to the fantastical.  It
was equally about economic fantasies, like Fred & Ginger musicals,
"Cinderella" stories, etc.

We have the nerve to tell the depressing stories, of which SF is
usually a part because of its reliance on distopias as a genre, when
we're secure enough to hear them.

In many ways, it's immaterial whether media can or should be used to
prepare the public, because propagandistic intent is usually not part
of the motivation to either create or distribute mainstream Fantasy or
SF content.  The motivation is usually money!  However, media prepares
the public, regardless.  It seems to me the determining factor of its
success is how far ahead is the preparation and for what?  For
instance, SF has always inspired people to create things that don't
yet exist.  My kids love the show "How William Shatner Changed the
World" in which the irrepressible actor shows how "Star Trek" inspired
an entire generation of kids to grow up and create real versions of
the futuristic technologies they were watching.  I think the reason
Star Trek was such an effective inspiration was 1) it was in kids'
living rooms each week (or daily in syndication); 2) the stories were
fun, simple and it took little effort to link the story parallels to
the viewers' present (Vietnam/racism/etc.); and 3) it was a soothing,
Utopian vision of humanity.  We were the good guys and we'd worked
most of our speciel crap out before he hit the galaxy to force
peaceful co-existence down everyone else's throats.  It went down
easy.

But you only have to look at the history of SF to see how some stories
and writers have presaged larger trends and changes.

HOWEVER, there is quite a long lead time between the initial
publication of someone like Jules Verne and his eventual technological
vindication, so most of his futuristic ideas are acknowledge only in
retrospect.  In my opinion, it's the work of more near-term creators
that has any hope of preparing a public for a prompt change.  There's
a reason Michael Crichton has a larger and more mainstream readership
than anyone in the traditional SF pantheon.  It's because people don't
think they're reading SF.  They are reading a "techno-thriller" which
by definition employs SF, but it also has as much in common with spy
thrillers and combat stories as SF.  He writes character-based
adventures and the world he describes is here and now, except with
genetically-engineered
dinosaurs/nano-swarms/cyborgs/fill-in-the-technological-boogieman-blank.

Of course, many could say that's nonsense.  A single technology does
not exist in a vacuum and the advance of technology across the board
would make the story, by definition, anachronistic and impossible.
But that's not what attracts readers.  They want to know about now.
Not decades hence.  Otherwise, it has no relevance and no immediacy.
That means fewer eyeballs, either on screens or on the page.  And that
makes preparing the public, who won't know about your ideas if they
haven't seen/heard/read them, much harder.

I know I've said this all before, but there it is.  Again.

PJ


From andres at thoughtware.tv  Mon Oct  1 03:40:08 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:40:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy Empty
	Space:
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>

I understand the concept of why empty space has non-zero energy. After being
introduced to the casimir effect and quantum fluctuations, I finally decided
to ask the list in the hopes that one of the physicist here can answer me
this question that has been bothering me.

If energetic particles are constantly blinking in and out of existence in
empty space...why doesn't this violate the second law of thermodynamics?

..in short:

Q. Why don't vacuum fluctuations violate the second law of thermodynamics?

Share the answer and enjoy this
video<http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/837>on the conservation of
energy at
Thoughtware.TV

Andr?s,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.tv>
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From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Oct  1 03:54:16 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:54:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy
 Empty	Space:
In-Reply-To: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070930225254.02227470@satx.rr.com>

At 11:40 PM 9/30/2007 -0400, Andr?s wrote:
>If energetic particles are constantly blinking 
>in and out of existence in empty space...why 
>doesn't this violate the second law of thermodynamics?

1) Because the second law of thermodynamics is statistical.
2) Because the debt is paid back quickly. 



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  1 04:06:10 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:06:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

James writes

> Lee;
> 
> Like any issue, there are those whose motives are unimpeachable (whether
> they're factually right or wrong), and those whose motives are biased.  This
> is the sole point of my posting - that neither side is completely free from
> bias, and we should avoid making sweeping statements that try to paint
> everyone on one side with a single brush.  Maybe the media and the
> politicians can make use of such mud-slinging, but anyone who has the skills
> of critical thinking should be more concerned with uncovering and evaluating
> the facts for themselves.

Very good.  I can hardly ask for more.

But I can, actually.  While it is great to participate in discussions
where people (i) admit their biases when they are able, (ii) sincerely
wish to know the truth, (iii) are willing to expend a modicum of
effort,  THEN some progress can be made. 

I'm after further ideas and further information. Scanning lists of 
skeptics or believers does some help, but this thread has so far
exposed some weaknesses of relying merely on this. But we
can do more.

1. we can give narratives of the formation of our own beliefs;
    any asymmetries can be revealing
2. we can search for well-pedigreed pundits on this issue
    (well-pedigreed amounting to having a history of non-
    ideological and non-political serious inquiry)

That's all I've been able to think of right now. I strongly welcome
any testimonials of the form (i) and will write one myself.  And we
(collectively) must surely be able to point to *some* examples of (ii).
I suppose that libertarians and conservatives may tend to be on
the same side here, because there is a strong and on this issue
very relevant common denominator of opposing large government
and being very skeptical of programs to be executed by government.
(People doubting my bonafides should appreciate that last, just as
I explicitly appreciated several of James' points that did not help my
own case.)

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:29 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
> 
> James writes
> 
>> you're not suggesting that there are no financial incentives for
>> those who write research papers against Global Warming, are you?  See
>>
>>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/science/28climate.html?ex=1311739200&en=00
> d5453101bbc950&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
> 
> Thanks.  Indeed I was not aware that any outside agencies were paying
> any scientists who did not support the view that global warming was
> being oversold. But you should wince a little at the tone of that article,
> which begins
> 
> Utilities Pay Scientist Ally on Warming
> 
>> BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>> Published: July 28, 2006
>> WASHINGTON, July 27 - Coal-burning utilities are contributing money to
>> one of the few remaining climate scientists openly critical of the broad 
>> consensus that fossil fuel emissions are intensifying global warming.
> 
> The bias of this lead sentence is large and obvious. The writer is
> apparently
> someone who would find it somewhat painful to complete any full
> sentence without pushing the point of view he personally believes in.
> Everything from "few remaining..." to "broad consensus".  Now 
> explain *why* a journalist, indeed writing for the Associated Press,
> would have such an agenda?    Of course, we do or should be able
> to individually acknowledge the general overt bias of western media in 
> politically related questions, of which this is a sample.
> 
>> There are tremendous amounts of money to be made and lost by corporations
> as
>> a result of environmental decisions by governments, which under our
> current
>> structure leads to tremendous pressure by some to retain the status quo,
> and
>> by others to push for changes and punish their competition.
> 
> Yes (and thank you for admitting that last phrase; we must strive for
> objectivity).  But you haven't said whether you agree with the point
> that the traditional left seems to have a horse in this race that's not
> simply scientific.
> 
> The bigger question I'm addressing is the bias itself, from both sides,
> and why we think what we think. On a number of occasions, I have
> to brag, a desire to explain *this* phenomenon in unbiased terms
> has always seemed to be coming much more from my side of the
> political spectrum. 
> 
> No one has yet addressed either way my contention that the social
> idealism (quite apart from literally saving the Earth) of many on the
> left---idealism that manifests itself in wanting bigger government
> and greater regulation---is behind a great deal of the support for
> global warming and a very great amount of support for the belief
> in catastrophic global warming.
> 
> One way to address this might be if anyone has attempted to poll
> scientists who are entirely unpolitical or ideological (I understand
> the difficulty of this). But we may ourselves have some success in
> soliciting opinion from well-known extropians who have never
> voiced a political opinion.
> 
> Lee
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
>> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:04 AM
>> To: ExI chat list
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
>>
>> BillK writes
>>
>>> On 9/30/07, Lee Corbin wrote:
>>>> Be sure to see
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2007/06/global-warming-.html
>>>>
>>>> Global Warming scientist skeptics list is growing...
>>>> ... to the absolute chagrin of the kool-aid drinking members of the
>> Church of Chicken
>>>> Little.  Stumbled across this today and thought it worthy of our
>> attention:
>>>
>>> As the last reader comment on that item notes...
>>> He also notes that this opposes the thousands of scientists who
>>> support the theory that humans are a major part of the cause of global
>>> warming.
>>>
>>> You can probably find more 'scientists' that deny the theory of
> evolution.
>>> Some even still deny that smoking causes cancer.
>>
>> There are a number of differences. One is to check if you can be
>> suspicious of some prior crackpot element.  Clearly in the case
>> of evolution we have ample explanation of the motives of some
>> of the creationists and so on---religion is a huge force in human
>> thinking and motivation. So what would be the analogy here?
>> Do a lot of the names on these list jump out at you as being bought
>> and paid for by people who can somehow make money if global
>> warming is false?
>>
>> Another is the incredible yet obvious, amazing yet not-so-perplexing
>> political component of this scientific issue.
>>
>> Political component?  Now, how could that be?  I ask seriously, but
>> especially if anyone wishes to make an unbiased stab at answering,
>> i.e. answering in such a way that the writer's own biases or political
>> allegiances are not patent (though of course all comments welcome).
>>
>> But being political, one may ask (just as one does in tobacco cases) who
>> does the funding?  In this case, it's almost entirely governments and
> those
>> who hope for government grants.  Thus we instantly see the especially
>> harmful effects of funding that is partly or mainly politically or
>> ideologically motivated.
>>
>> The iron law of government bureaucracies is growth, growth, and more
>> growth.  A "crisis" real or imagined is damn, damn fine for government
>> growth, and is a very convenient truth for those who believe that
>> governments ought to be actively improving our lives a lot more than
>> they supposedly are already.
>>
>> Lee
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 04:14:46 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:14:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy Empty
	Space:
In-Reply-To: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 30 September 2007 22:40, Andres Colon wrote:
> Q. Why don't vacuum fluctuations violate the second law of
> thermodynamics?

A friend says: "The uncertainty principle can be applied here. Usually 
the uncertainty principle has to do with velocity and position. In this 
case it would deal with energy and time."

But I think a more interesting question is "how can we reconcile the 
localized conservation of energy with our uncertainty as to whether or 
not energy is conserved on the much larger macroscopic scales of our 
universe." Thoughts?

- Bryan


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  1 04:16:48 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:16:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
In-Reply-To: <008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>
	<008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>

In his discussion on the "Proactionary Principle" at the TransVision 2007
conference, Max More alluded to his acceptance of Global Warming, based on
his own reading of the evidence.  I would like to hear more about his
thoughts, or read any papers he's written on this subject, since he has
represented the Libertarian side of the Transhumanist movement for many
years.  If I'm mistaken about his remarks or the portrayal, then I apologize
in advance.

Can this be arranged Natasha?

James Clement 

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:06 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?

James writes

> Lee;
> 
> Like any issue, there are those whose motives are unimpeachable (whether
> they're factually right or wrong), and those whose motives are biased.
This
> is the sole point of my posting - that neither side is completely free
from
> bias, and we should avoid making sweeping statements that try to paint
> everyone on one side with a single brush.  Maybe the media and the
> politicians can make use of such mud-slinging, but anyone who has the
skills
> of critical thinking should be more concerned with uncovering and
evaluating
> the facts for themselves.

Very good.  I can hardly ask for more.

But I can, actually.  While it is great to participate in discussions
where people (i) admit their biases when they are able, (ii) sincerely
wish to know the truth, (iii) are willing to expend a modicum of
effort,  THEN some progress can be made. 

I'm after further ideas and further information. Scanning lists of 
skeptics or believers does some help, but this thread has so far
exposed some weaknesses of relying merely on this. But we
can do more.

1. we can give narratives of the formation of our own beliefs;
    any asymmetries can be revealing
2. we can search for well-pedigreed pundits on this issue
    (well-pedigreed amounting to having a history of non-
    ideological and non-political serious inquiry)

That's all I've been able to think of right now. I strongly welcome
any testimonials of the form (i) and will write one myself.  And we
(collectively) must surely be able to point to *some* examples of (ii).
I suppose that libertarians and conservatives may tend to be on
the same side here, because there is a strong and on this issue
very relevant common denominator of opposing large government
and being very skeptical of programs to be executed by government.
(People doubting my bonafides should appreciate that last, just as
I explicitly appreciated several of James' points that did not help my
own case.)

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:29 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
> 
> James writes
> 
>> you're not suggesting that there are no financial incentives for
>> those who write research papers against Global Warming, are you?  See
>>
>>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/science/28climate.html?ex=1311739200&en=00
> d5453101bbc950&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
> 
> Thanks.  Indeed I was not aware that any outside agencies were paying
> any scientists who did not support the view that global warming was
> being oversold. But you should wince a little at the tone of that article,
> which begins
> 
> Utilities Pay Scientist Ally on Warming
> 
>> BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>> Published: July 28, 2006
>> WASHINGTON, July 27 - Coal-burning utilities are contributing money to
>> one of the few remaining climate scientists openly critical of the broad 
>> consensus that fossil fuel emissions are intensifying global warming.
> 
> The bias of this lead sentence is large and obvious. The writer is
> apparently
> someone who would find it somewhat painful to complete any full
> sentence without pushing the point of view he personally believes in.
> Everything from "few remaining..." to "broad consensus".  Now 
> explain *why* a journalist, indeed writing for the Associated Press,
> would have such an agenda?    Of course, we do or should be able
> to individually acknowledge the general overt bias of western media in 
> politically related questions, of which this is a sample.
> 
>> There are tremendous amounts of money to be made and lost by corporations
> as
>> a result of environmental decisions by governments, which under our
> current
>> structure leads to tremendous pressure by some to retain the status quo,
> and
>> by others to push for changes and punish their competition.
> 
> Yes (and thank you for admitting that last phrase; we must strive for
> objectivity).  But you haven't said whether you agree with the point
> that the traditional left seems to have a horse in this race that's not
> simply scientific.
> 
> The bigger question I'm addressing is the bias itself, from both sides,
> and why we think what we think. On a number of occasions, I have
> to brag, a desire to explain *this* phenomenon in unbiased terms
> has always seemed to be coming much more from my side of the
> political spectrum. 
> 
> No one has yet addressed either way my contention that the social
> idealism (quite apart from literally saving the Earth) of many on the
> left---idealism that manifests itself in wanting bigger government
> and greater regulation---is behind a great deal of the support for
> global warming and a very great amount of support for the belief
> in catastrophic global warming.
> 
> One way to address this might be if anyone has attempted to poll
> scientists who are entirely unpolitical or ideological (I understand
> the difficulty of this). But we may ourselves have some success in
> soliciting opinion from well-known extropians who have never
> voiced a political opinion.
> 
> Lee
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
>> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
>> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:04 AM
>> To: ExI chat list
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
>>
>> BillK writes
>>
>>> On 9/30/07, Lee Corbin wrote:
>>>> Be sure to see
>>>>
>>>>
>>
http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2007/06/global-warming-.html
>>>>
>>>> Global Warming scientist skeptics list is growing...
>>>> ... to the absolute chagrin of the kool-aid drinking members of the
>> Church of Chicken
>>>> Little.  Stumbled across this today and thought it worthy of our
>> attention:
>>>
>>> As the last reader comment on that item notes...
>>> He also notes that this opposes the thousands of scientists who
>>> support the theory that humans are a major part of the cause of global
>>> warming.
>>>
>>> You can probably find more 'scientists' that deny the theory of
> evolution.
>>> Some even still deny that smoking causes cancer.
>>
>> There are a number of differences. One is to check if you can be
>> suspicious of some prior crackpot element.  Clearly in the case
>> of evolution we have ample explanation of the motives of some
>> of the creationists and so on---religion is a huge force in human
>> thinking and motivation. So what would be the analogy here?
>> Do a lot of the names on these list jump out at you as being bought
>> and paid for by people who can somehow make money if global
>> warming is false?
>>
>> Another is the incredible yet obvious, amazing yet not-so-perplexing
>> political component of this scientific issue.
>>
>> Political component?  Now, how could that be?  I ask seriously, but
>> especially if anyone wishes to make an unbiased stab at answering,
>> i.e. answering in such a way that the writer's own biases or political
>> allegiances are not patent (though of course all comments welcome).
>>
>> But being political, one may ask (just as one does in tobacco cases) who
>> does the funding?  In this case, it's almost entirely governments and
> those
>> who hope for government grants.  Thus we instantly see the especially
>> harmful effects of funding that is partly or mainly politically or
>> ideologically motivated.
>>
>> The iron law of government bureaucracies is growth, growth, and more
>> growth.  A "crisis" real or imagined is damn, damn fine for government
>> growth, and is a very convenient truth for those who believe that
>> governments ought to be actively improving our lives a lot more than
>> they supposedly are already.
>>
>> Lee
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Oct  1 04:47:21 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:47:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>
	<008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070930233352.021ee238@satx.rr.com>

At 09:16 PM 9/30/2007 -0700, JC wrote:

>In his discussion on the "Proactionary Principle" at the TransVision 2007
>conference, Max More alluded to his acceptance of Global Warming

You've left out a key modifier: anthropogenic. Dyson, e.g., accepts 
that climate is warming, but thinks it's primarily a cycle in solar 
oscillations of some sort. Others agree global warming is clearly 
evident, but regard the human-added factors variously relevant. If 
vagaries of insolation are responsible for a real effect (as hinted 
by the synchronous "global warming" on Mars), an obvious technical 
fix is a soletta-type "umbrella" or "diffuser" at Earth-Sun 
Lagrange-1. Hardly anyone considers this seriously, least of all 
those for whom our presumed plight is a wake-up call to moral virtue, 
technical modesty and belt-tightening. I see some resemblances here 
to medical and ecclesiastical opposition to anesthetic relief during 
childbirth--women were *meant* to suffer, damn it!

Damien Broderick 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  1 05:15:33 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:15:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070930233352.021ee238@satx.rr.com>
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>	<008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070930233352.021ee238@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV377B6240C6202B6EF25DAA3AD0@phx.gbl>

Damien;

Without a transcript, or other writings of Max's, I would not be able to say
what his views are.  I haven't studied the field, and would certainly make
no pretense of holding any special knowledge.  If indeed the evidence shows
there is Global Warming, then it would seem prudent that the Government
would be concerned over predicted effects of such, would it not?  How the
politicians "spin" the issue will depend on their integrity and biases.
What will be done about it, should the evidence point to the necessity for
action, will likely be a combination of governmental and private action.

My object is to learn, not to proselytize.

James   

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien
Broderick
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:47 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?

At 09:16 PM 9/30/2007 -0700, JC wrote:

>In his discussion on the "Proactionary Principle" at the TransVision 2007
>conference, Max More alluded to his acceptance of Global Warming

You've left out a key modifier: anthropogenic. Dyson, e.g., accepts 
that climate is warming, but thinks it's primarily a cycle in solar 
oscillations of some sort. Others agree global warming is clearly 
evident, but regard the human-added factors variously relevant. If 
vagaries of insolation are responsible for a real effect (as hinted 
by the synchronous "global warming" on Mars), an obvious technical 
fix is a soletta-type "umbrella" or "diffuser" at Earth-Sun 
Lagrange-1. Hardly anyone considers this seriously, least of all 
those for whom our presumed plight is a wake-up call to moral virtue, 
technical modesty and belt-tightening. I see some resemblances here 
to medical and ecclesiastical opposition to anesthetic relief during 
childbirth--women were *meant* to suffer, damn it!

Damien Broderick 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct  1 05:22:34 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:22:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] macdac's rocket scientists
In-Reply-To: <004f01c802dc$48c463f0$6401a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <200710010549.l915nIea010113@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Olga Bourlin
...
> 
> My husband - who's known a lot of those fabled "rocket scientists" at
> McDonnell Douglas (where he used to work for 15 years) ... found a lot of
> them wanting when it came to interdisciplinary thinking (e.g., there were
> a couple of them who were creationists)... Olga


Ja, Olga, I too have serious doubts about MacDonnnelll Doouglas' rocket
scientists.  {8^D  Oddly enough, creationism is a surprisingly common
outlook among "rocket scientists".  We have a few of these at Lockheeed.  I
never have been able to figure out why, but I will offer a theory: one can
be a rocket scientist without actually having a deep seated science mindset.
If one is really good with the mechanics of mathematics, if one can model a
physical object as a system of simultaneous differential equations and solve
for any variable therein, one can be a rocket scientist.  A rocket scientist
is really a very sophisticated technician, in a sense.  I don't doubt that
super-technicians are smart guys, but they can (and often do) convince
themselves of some wacky stuff.


New subject: at the risk of rooting for my own competitors, check this:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298581,00.html


U.S. Successfully Tests Missile Defense System Saturday, September 29, 2007

VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -  A ground-based missile successfully
intercepted a target missile Friday in a test of the nation's defense
system, the Missile Defense Agency said.

An intercontinental ballistic missile interceptor blasted out of an
underground silo at Vandenberg Air Force Base shortly after 1:15 p.m., and
tracked a target missile that had lifted off from the Kodiak Launch Complex
in Alaska, the Boeing Co. said in a statement.

The Missile Defense Agency said initial results show the interceptor's
rocket motor system and kill vehicle performed as planned. Boeing said the
warhead was tracked, intercepted and destroyed.

Boeing is the prime contractor for what is formally known as the
Ground-Based Midcourse Defense system.

The MDA expects to invest $49 billion in ballistic missile defense
development and fielding over the next five years.

Two operational interceptor missiles are currently based at Vandenberg and
there are 11 deployed at Fort Greely, Alaska.






I offer my grudging congratulations to Booeing, for this is a competition in
which all humanity wins if the rocket scientists win:

There were recent disparaging comments here regarding FoxNews.  However, Fox
was the only mainstream news agency that carried this story (unless I missed
it elsewhere or it hasn't shown up yet) outside of my own rocket science
news outlets.  So without Fox, how would the public hear of this kind of
success?  This is certainly newsworthy, an extraordinary accomplishment, ja?

spike








From scerir at libero.it  Mon Oct  1 06:17:01 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:17:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy
	EmptySpace:
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede>

> But I think a more interesting question is "how can we reconcile the 
> localized conservation of energy with our uncertainty as to whether or 
> not energy is conserved on the much larger macroscopic scales of our 
> universe." Thoughts?
> 
> - Bryan

Not sure I understand.

Radiation energy decreases due to the universal
expansion and related red/black shifting, 
dark energy would increase due to expansion ....

It is supposed that total energy (radiation,
matter, dark energy, + gravitational field energy)
is conserved (by definition, I would say).


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 10:18:17 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:18:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] macdac's rocket scientists
In-Reply-To: <200710010549.l915nIea010113@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004f01c802dc$48c463f0$6401a8c0@brainiac>
	<200710010549.l915nIea010113@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710010318i511a1598jf59c2e6b28eff770@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> for any variable therein, one can be a rocket scientist.  A rocket
> scientist
> is really a very sophisticated technician, in a sense.  I don't doubt that
> super-technicians are smart guys, but they can (and often do) convince
> themselves of some wacky stuff.
>

In fact, "science" has a rather peculiar usage in English. In Neolatin
languages, "rocket scientist" cannot even be literally translated, because
engineering, as practical medicine, are considered "know-hows", distinct as
such from the sciences they are based on, as speaking a language is distinct
from philology...

Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 11:46:39 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:46:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] macdac's rocket scientists
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710010318i511a1598jf59c2e6b28eff770@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004f01c802dc$48c463f0$6401a8c0@brainiac>
	<200710010549.l915nIea010113@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<580930c20710010318i511a1598jf59c2e6b28eff770@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710010446v521a9fbbme2ffad065457bbca@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> In fact, "science" has a rather peculiar usage in English. In Neolatin
> languages, "rocket scientist" cannot even be literally translated, because
> engineering, as practical medicine, are considered "know-hows", distinct as
> such from the sciences they are based on, as speaking a language is distinct
> from philology...
>

Hmmm.
Well, in French, 'rocket scientist' is 'scientifique de fus?e', which
literally is 'scientist of rocket or missile'.  'rocket engineer'
translates to 'ing?nieur de fus?e', which literally is 'engineer of
rocket or missile'.

So I think the phrase can be literally translated.
But maybe you are making the subtle distinction, which applies across
many languages and societies, that 'scientist' means different things
to different people.
Just like 'doctor' means something different to an American and a Zulu.

BillK


From neomorphy at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 12:34:12 2007
From: neomorphy at gmail.com (Olie Lamb)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:34:12 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
In-Reply-To: <000001c80375$13eb64f0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <46FF2855.30303@pooq.com> <000001c80375$13eb64f0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <f3afeba0710010534w67cd8a97s3397a29c747ac70a@mail.gmail.com>

Uh, Damien Spikey,

There are a lot of people _seriously_ considering the feasibility of
affecting the Earth's albedo, such as by setting up very large 'mirrors' in
deserts, if warming is strong, incremental, and gradual over the next few
decades.  Unless the cost of space payloads drop dramatically (yes, a space
elevator would change this), the cost of terrestrial reflectors is likely to
remain many orders of magnitude lower than those for solar diffusers.
(Besides, very lightweight celestial umbrellas would turn into solar
sails...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitigation_of_global_warming

"If vagaries of insolation are responsible for a real effect (as hinted
by the synchronous "global warming" on Mars), an obvious technical
fix is a soletta-type "umbrella" or "diffuser" at Earth-Sun
Lagrange-1. Hardly anyone considers this seriously, least of all
those for whom our presumed plight is a wake-up call to moral virtue,
technical modesty and belt-tightening"

ALSO,

On 10/1/07, Gary Miller <aiguy at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Jan Veizer, one of Canada's top earth scientists, published a
> comprehensive
> review of recent findings and concluded, "empirical observations on all
> time
> scales point to celestial phenomena as the principal driver of climate,
> with
> greenhouse gases acting only as potential amplifiers."
>


This statement is either approaching tautological (and so, nearly
meaningless), or completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_Gun_Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene-Eocene_Thermal_Maximum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming
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From rpwl at lightlink.com  Mon Oct  1 13:09:32 2007
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:09:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Testimonial of the form (i) [WAS Re: Global Warming Skeptics
 as Interview Subjects?]
In-Reply-To: <008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>
	<008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <4700F18C.9050105@lightlink.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
> James writes
> 
>> Lee;
>>
>> Like any issue, there are those whose motives are unimpeachable (whether
>> they're factually right or wrong), and those whose motives are biased.  This
>> is the sole point of my posting - that neither side is completely free from
>> bias, and we should avoid making sweeping statements that try to paint
>> everyone on one side with a single brush.  Maybe the media and the
>> politicians can make use of such mud-slinging, but anyone who has the skills
>> of critical thinking should be more concerned with uncovering and evaluating
>> the facts for themselves.
> 
> Very good.  I can hardly ask for more.
> 
> But I can, actually.  While it is great to participate in discussions
> where people (i) admit their biases when they are able, (ii) sincerely
> wish to know the truth, (iii) are willing to expend a modicum of
> effort,  THEN some progress can be made. 
> 
> I'm after further ideas and further information. Scanning lists of 
> skeptics or believers does some help, but this thread has so far
> exposed some weaknesses of relying merely on this. But we
> can do more.
> 
> 1. we can give narratives of the formation of our own beliefs;
>     any asymmetries can be revealing
> 2. we can search for well-pedigreed pundits on this issue
>     (well-pedigreed amounting to having a history of non-
>     ideological and non-political serious inquiry)
> 
> That's all I've been able to think of right now. I strongly welcome
> any testimonials of the form (i) and will write one myself.  And we
> (collectively) must surely be able to point to *some* examples of (ii).

The formation of beliefs, on issues such as the global warming debate, 
is simple if you use the scientific method:  test all the claims made by 
tracking back to sources and doing some fact-checking and cross-examination.

What happens when you do this is that (usually) one set of opinions 
collapses in self-contradiction and/or lies.  Lomborg's book is a 
perfect example:  take any one of his claims, start tracking it back to 
source, do the cross checking, etc., and you very quickly find the 
arguments fall apart.  The text is replete with exaggerations, extreme 
distortions, omission of crucial facts, irrelevancies and statistical 
sleight of hand.

Do the same to the data and opinions generated by those who believe that 
global warming is (likely to be) anthropogenic, and you find that the 
web of facts surrounding their claims simply does not fall apart, does 
not contain huge omissions, and gets stronger and more self-consistent 
the more you look at it.

The same can be done with any other issue, scientific or political.

Your option (2) above is just comparing the size of megaphones:  that's 
the pseudoscientific method.


Richard Loosemore


From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Oct  1 14:57:32 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:57:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl>
	<008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200710011457.l91EvtB7008426@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>

At 11:16 PM 9/30/2007, JC wrote:

>In his discussion on the "Proactionary Principle" at the TransVision 2007
>conference, Max More alluded to his acceptance of Global Warming, based on
>his own reading of the evidence.  I would like to hear more about his
>thoughts, or read any papers he's written on this subject, since he has
>represented the Libertarian side of the Transhumanist movement for many
>years.

You are mixing politics with science and philosophy.  And this is 
quite a narrow-minded statement because Max represented much more 
than a "Libertarians side of Transhumumanist movement".  (I can see 
the WTA has gotten to you.)

Max has represented all sides of transhumanist but the religious and 
socialist side.

>If I'm mistaken about his remarks or the portrayal, then I apologize
>in advance.
>
>Can this be arranged Natasha?

You can call him yourself James.  In fact, you were supposed call him 
some weeks ago.

Best wishes,
Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, Centre for 
Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From jonkc at att.net  Mon Oct  1 15:24:36 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:24:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Global Warming Skeptics as Interview Subjects?.
References: <006501c803b1$c2687720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><BAY124-DAV8B57455A7A33330CDD355A3AC0@phx.gbl><008e01c803e0$b1fcc6f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><BAY124-DAV61756D53EADA3F4C00CDAA3AD0@phx.gbl>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070930233352.021ee238@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001301c8043f$4195b480$5e0a4e0c@MyComputer>

"Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com>

> I see some resemblances here  to medical and 
> ecclesiastical opposition to anesthetic relief during
> childbirth--women were *meant* to suffer, damn it!

Damn, I wish I'd said that! Oh well, undoubtly I will.

First rate post Damien, although next time have the courtesy to say 
something I disagree with so we can argue.

  John K Clark 




From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 20:04:57 2007
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:04:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Futurism in the Geekipedia
Message-ID: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone gotten a look at Wired's Geekipedia?  Under the entry
"Futurism" is a breakdown of supposed Futurist schools: Capitalists,
Socialists, Totalitarians and Apocalyptics.

http://www.wired.com/culture/geekipedia/magazine/geekipedia/futurism

Here's what they say about people we supposedly resemble:

"Totalitarians:
Futurists of this variety don't merely forecast or speculate.  The
have a rigid ideological conviction about what the future holds, and
they'll happily force it on anyone within reach.  Prominent schemes
come from situationists, singularity enthusiasts and transhumanist
visionaries who are so desperate to escape the nightmare of history
that nobody else can figure out what they're talking about.  Major
proponent: Project for the New American Century."

HUH?!  In their wildest imaginings, when did transhumanists or
singulartarians become neo-cons???!!!  Did I just wake up and you all
invaded Iran while I slept???

Some of us may partially resemble the capitalists and some of us the
socialists and some both simultaneously (and none ,thank goodness,
resemble the Apocalyptics, who are Fundies), but for Pete's sake, do
these guys know anything about actual futurism???

PJ


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 21:54:13 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:54:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy
	EmptySpace:
In-Reply-To: <000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede>
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede>
Message-ID: <200710011654.13514.kanzure@gmail.com>

I would agree that energy, by definition, would have to be conserved 
since we came up with the concept in the first place. However, what 
about the expansion of space? If there is a finite amount of energy and 
mass, then the vacuum fluctuations should be increasingly less 
localized. Right?

(Don't call me right off on this- just back from a long day. :))

- Bryan


From mmbutler at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 22:08:58 2007
From: mmbutler at gmail.com (Michael M. Butler)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:08:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Futurism in the Geekipedia
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7d79ed890710011508j3e144a7bybcce371f6ab66a0f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> [F]or Pete's sake, do
> these guys know anything about actual futurism???

It's Wired. So the general answer to "[D]o these guys know
anything...?" is "...No".

-- 
         Michael M. Butler  :  m m b u t l e r  ( a t )  g m a i l . c o m
           Loneliness is the ultimate poverty.  --Abigail Van Buren


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Oct  2 04:25:38 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:25:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Nanotech opposition
Message-ID: <200710020427.l924RIj17561@unreasonable.com>

I just received a job posting on one of my lists 
for a position whose holder is likely to be a 
public voice in opposition to much that we want to see.


-- David.

======================================
Director, Nanotechnology Project
Center for the Study of Responsive Law (CSRL)
Washington, DC

Description:

The Nanotechnology Project* seeks a Project 
Director to develop an independent group working 
on the oversight of nanotechnology. The mission 
of the project is to educate the public and 
policymakers about nanotechnology's risks to human health and the environment.

Specific Responsibilities Include:

Activities

?         Developing and directing public education programs
?         Monitoring Congressional action on nanotechnology initiatives
?         Developing and maintaining 
relationships with allied organizations and individuals
?         Representing the group and its members 
at meetings, pubic hearings and other events

Writing

?         Authoring and editing articles, 
reports, regulatory comments and news releases
?         Developing and producing a short newsletter and information alerts
?         Writing and editing grant proposals

Group Operations

?         Overseeing general operations of the organization
?         Overseeing the communications program
?         Hiring, training and supervising other staff/interns
?         Developing fundraising programs

Desired Skills/Qualifications

?         Excellent verbal, written and interpersonal communications skills
?         Ability to build effective 
relationships with allied organizations and individuals
?         Demonstrated success in project management
?         Be a self-starter and highly motivated
?         Strong organizational skills and 
experience managing multiple tasks and projects
?         Previous experience with nanotechnology 
or technology issues highly preferable
?         Graduate degree in law, engineering or other relevant field desirable


* A project of the Center for the Study of Responsive Law (CSRL).


Center for the Study of Responsive Law (CSRL) is 
a nonprofit Ralph Nader organization that 
supports and conducts a wide variety of research 
and educational projects to encourage the 
political, economic and social institutions of 
this country to be more aware of the needs of the 
citizen-consumer. The Center serves to empower 
citizens, guard the environment, protect 
consumers and monitor worker health and safety issues.

How to Apply:

Email resume and cover letter to Adam Tapley, atapley at csrl.org.

  



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Oct  2 05:12:51 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:12:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>


On Sep 26, 2007, at 10:34 PM, Emlyn wrote:

> This isn't new, but it is interesting, I thought some people mightn't
> have seen it. It'll read as pretty strongly partisan, so get past that
> if you can. Do you think things are really as bad as she describes?

Yes.

1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.

2) 911 was then used to curtail civil liberties and all but  
rubberstamp subsequent government power grabs.

3) 911 is used to justify current and future wars and indeed "war  
without end".  Out of generated and nurtured sustained fear the people  
go along.

4) Our economy is a tottering house of cards with the dollar fast  
running off the rails.

5) Peak Oil is real.

6) 4 & 5 and the knowledge thereof and how bad it really is likely  
explain why (1) was considered justified and why it and subsequent  
developments raise so little outcry in either major party.

7) Given a coming economy crash and subsequent mass unrest the state  
wants and has acquired the means to do whatever it wishes to and with  
the people to perpetuate its own existence or at least the comfort of  
the power elites.

on her (2) I don't think it is an accident that we jail a larger  
percentage of our citizens than any other government or that much more  
prison capacity is being planned and built out.   I find it very  
chilling that already signed executive orders give the President  
authority to have anyone he wants arrested and effectively disappeared  
without trial or rights simply by applying the label 'enemy combatant'  
or 'terrorist' without any standard of proof.

(4), surveillance, worries me greatly.  Past States leaning toward  
totalitarianism could not dream of the level of surveillance that is  
technically possible today.  With increasingly powerful and ubiquitous  
surveillance resistance become not merely futile but nearly impossible.

She is right on (5) that the definition of "terrorism" is much too  
loose and fluid.  It is easy to label something or someone as  
terrorist and remove many legal protections and quiet objections.

She is right about the dangers and about every specific development  
she mentions in its dangers and implications.

This is a very dangerous situation for we who live on this side of the  
pond.  So why is most of the response here about how much of an  
intellectual she is or is not and other side matters?   Is the heart  
of the matter so easily dismissed?  Or is it simply to disheartening  
and difficult to take on?  Would we really argue about what "fascism"  
means or strut our intellectual wit while our freedoms and our future  
are taken away?    Perhaps "fascism" is not technically the right  
word.  Perhaps the author does overly inflate.   But the subject is  
far too deadly serious to treat lightly or to distract ourselves with  
lesser matters from considering.


- samantha



From mmbutler at gmail.com  Tue Oct  2 05:45:26 2007
From: mmbutler at gmail.com (Michael M. Butler)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:45:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.

Ballocks. Makes it very hard to take the rest of what you write
seriously, even though I do.

Eugene? I tried to quit the list twice already. What does it take?


-- 
         Michael M. Butler  :  m m b u t l e r  ( a t )  g m a i l . c o m
           Loneliness is the ultimate poverty.  --Abigail Van Buren


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Oct  2 15:37:11 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:37:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Futurism in the Geekipedia
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710021537.l92FbZfj017389@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>

At 03:04 PM 10/1/2007, PJ Manney wrote:

>Has anyone gotten a look at Wired's Geekipedia?  Under the entry
>"Futurism" is a breakdown of supposed Futurist schools: Capitalists,
>Socialists, Totalitarians and Apocalyptics.
>
>http://www.wired.com/culture/geekipedia/magazine/geekipedia/futurism
>
>Here's what they say about people we supposedly resemble:
>
>"Totalitarians:
>Futurists of this variety don't merely forecast or speculate.  The
>have a rigid ideological conviction about what the future holds, and
>they'll happily force it on anyone within reach.  Prominent schemes
>come from situationists, singularity enthusiasts and transhumanist
>visionaries who are so desperate to escape the nightmare of history
>that nobody else can figure out what they're talking about.  Major
>proponent: Project for the New American Century."
>
>HUH?!  In their wildest imaginings, when did transhumanists or
>singulartarians become neo-cons???!!!  Did I just wake up and you all
>invaded Iran while I slept???
>
>Some of us may partially resemble the capitalists and some of us the
>socialists and some both simultaneously (and none ,thank goodness,
>resemble the Apocalyptics, who are Fundies), but for Pete's sake, do
>these guys know anything about actual futurism???

Yes I think they do but in this thing - this pedia - whatever it is - 
they are ignorantly segregating for effect.
Years ago Wired was friendly with transhumanism, especially its 
philosophy of Extropy.  Kevin Kelly, the founder, is a friend and he 
admires Max and Eric, etc.  As I emailed Mike La Torra privately, I 
have been written up in Wired several times and never criticized or 
made to look bad.  There was no hate, but a genuine fondness and 
appreciation.  Wired had been the darling of futurist ideas for many 
years.  Then little by little things started changing.  When Alex 
Herd wrote about transhumanists for the New York Times in 1999, he 
was objective and favorable.  He later became editor of Wired and 
things changed.  I know he left quickly thereafter.  Wired started 
getting a little mean-spirited.  But there was still people like Mark 
Frauenfedler and Brian Alexander and RU Sirius who were not 
transhumanists but respected us.  Over time, changed continued and 
some of the writers got snotty.  Bruce Sterling still writes for 
Wired.  Bruce does not speak well of transhumanism and he has a loud voice.

In short, Wired has changed.

Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, Centre for 
Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct  3 01:32:28 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:32:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>


On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:45 PM, Michael M. Butler wrote:

> On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
>
> Ballocks. Makes it very hard to take the rest of what you write
> seriously, even though I do.

It will take a lot more than your say-so to make the official story  
hold water.

- s


From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Wed Oct  3 00:56:00 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 02:56:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: The FP e-Alert: Why Climate Change Can't Be Stopped
References: <LYRIS-729198-232199-2007.10.01-22.26.07--sergiomartinez#mac.com@list.carnegieendowment.org>
Message-ID: <F2446F44-E5D4-48C8-B58F-CBDEA700339B@mac.com>

Some of you might find some of these articles (my own selection from  
FP's last e-Alert) interesting...

Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> WHY CLIMATE CHANGE CAN'T BE STOPPED
>
> By Paul J. Saunders and Vaughan Turekian
> Environmental advocates have finally managed to put the issue of  
> global warming at the top of the world's agenda. But the  
> scientific, economic, and political realities may mean that their  
> efforts are too little, too late.
>
>
> From the latest issue of FP
>
> HOW CAPITALISM IS KILLING DEMOCRACY
> By Robert B. Reich
> JUST SAY NO TO PROHIBITION
> By Ethan Nadelmann
> HOW TO MAKE A SPY
> By Tim Weiner
> THE TERRORISM INDEX
>
> More Web Exclusives Available at ForeignPolicy.com:
>
> The List
>
> SPUTNIK PLUS 50
> It's been 50 years since a tiny, bleeping orb named Sputnik  
> triggered a decades-long competition between the United States and  
> the Soviet Union to rule the heavens. But if you thought the space  
> race was over, think again. In this List, FP looks at the five  
> hottest contests for space dominance.
>
>
>
> FIVE POPULATION TRENDS TO WATCH
> Military experts have a saying: Amateurs study strategy;  
> professionals study logistics. When it comes to geopolitics,  
> professionals study demographics. In this List, FPsurveys the five  
> population trends that will shape our world in the years to come.
>
>
>
> THE WORLD ACCORDING TO JOHN BOLTON
> Negotiations with North Korea are on a knife's edge. Rumors of  
> secret Israeli raids on alleged Syrian nuclear facilities and  
> possible U.S. airstrikes on Iran are roiling political salons from  
> Washington to Riyadh. In this Seven Questions, former U.S.  
> Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton offers some advice for  
> those confronted with a dangerous world.
>
>
>
>
>
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From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct  2 19:52:16 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:52:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
Message-ID: <7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>

>
> A transcript of Sam Harris' recent (controversial) speech at the  
> Atheist Alliance Conference is now available on the Washington  
> Post / Newsweekwebsite.
>
> It can be read here: The Problem with Atheism
>

This was an important talk, so I'm passing along the link to its  
transcript.

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
Lifeboat Foundation     http://lifeboat.com
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From scerir at libero.it  Tue Oct  2 20:52:00 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:52:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero
	EnergyEmptySpace:
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com><200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com><000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede>
	<200710011654.13514.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601c80536$17e55ee0$a2b81f97@archimede>

Bryan:
However, what about the expansion of space?
If there is a finite amount of energy and mass,
then the vacuum fluctuations should be increasingly
less localized. Right?

#

Imagine removing from the universe the matter,
the radiation, and the other exotic stuff.
The resulting content is vacuum, the unobservable
lowest possible energy state. 

There are many effects which contribute to the total 
vacuum energy, including vacuum fluctuations (if energy 
conservation is violated when the particles are created, 
then all of that energy is restored when they annihilate 
again, and according to a vacuum conservation theorem, 
at a classical level the vacuum must be stable against 
spontaneous matter creation processes). 

Essentially the effect of vacuum energy is to contribute 
to the universal expansion, and not to the self-gravity 
effects. 

A quintessential possibility is that the vacuum energy 
changes with time. In this case, the problem of 
conservation/localization of vacuum energy may find 
a solution (ecological too).

Another possibility is a sort of inflationary scenario. 

The best possibility seems that the expansion is fueled 
by our lack of understanding :-)

I did not check Ned Wright
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
or Sean Carroll
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0004075
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310342
maybe you can find something there.



From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Wed Oct  3 18:43:14 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:43:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mental Floss:  Puffed-up virtuosos
Message-ID: <380-220071033184314484@M2W032.mail2web.com>

Christopher Smith's article for Mental Floss is a good read:
     
"(Mental Floss) -- They say a lot of artistic expression is motivated by
self-loathing. But not for these folks! Long before the Material Girl
ordered papa to stop preaching, these six puffed-up virtuosos knew darn
well how to strike a pose."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/worklife/09/28/mf.prima.donnas/index.html

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider -
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 19:54:57 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:54:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/07, Samantha  Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:45 PM, Michael M. Butler wrote:
>
> > On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
> >
> > Ballocks. Makes it very hard to take the rest of what you write
> > seriously, even though I do.
>
> It will take a lot more than your say-so to make the official story
> hold water.

Bottom line: the "inside" part of "inside job" may mean many things
(what degree of active or passive involvement? at what level?), but
the point is that the burden of proof is on those affirming the
official version.

And while I doubt that any of those challenging it can claim to know
"the truth, all the truth" about 9/11, I think that they have more
than successfully shown that the official version is far from being
proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Stefano Vaj


From scerir at libero.it  Wed Oct  3 20:51:17 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:51:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and
	Non-ZeroEnergyEmptySpace:
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com><200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com><000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede><200710011654.13514.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<000601c80536$17e55ee0$a2b81f97@archimede>
Message-ID: <001701c805ff$25c388b0$9cbf1f97@archimede>

[the questions by Andres and Bryan
were interesting (at last to me)
so I asked an expert ...]

> Is the vacuum energy density constant
> in the universe?

This depends upon who you talk to --- :-o .
Steinhardt came up with an idea that
the cosmological constant /\ was dependent
(eg no longer constant) upon a field phi,

/\ = /\(phi, phi_{,a}),

and since the cosmological constant is
related to the density and pressure by

/\ = 8pi G/c^2(e + p)

a cosmological term that varies in time
and space means that the energy density e
and pressure p will change as well.
This idea is called quintessence.

Is supect that quintessence is a phase
condition for the universe and vacuum,
along with dark energy and phantom energy.
These have curious analogues to Landau theory
of Fermi fluids in solid state physics.

> Having in mind the universal expansion,
> and if the vacuum energy density is constant,
> does it mean there is a continuous production
> of vacuum energy caused by the universal expansion,
> or causing the universal expansion?

This is one reason for dark energy and
negative pressure.  The equation of state is
p = we, for w a particular number.

The first law of thermodynamics is dE = -dW + TdS.
As you observe if the vacuum density of
the universe is a constant then as the volume
of the universe increases more energy would be
created for free.  Yet the total energy
of the universe should be zero, so we set
dE = 0 and dW = -de, and TdS = dp (units assumed)
we have that
dE = 0 = de + dp,
or in covariant terms
nabla_u(E) = 0 = (e + p)U^a_{;a}
and so we must have e = -p,
or that w = -1.

SN1A and WMAP data put w = -1.02 +- .01 or so.
Now in this first law view what is happening
is that internal energy is being created in
the universe, and so to conserve total energy
the vacuum absorbs work from the universe.

This is why there is negative pressure which we
interpret as dark energy.  This prevents the
expansion of the universe from creating energy
in a runaway process.

> (I can agree these are maybe little stupid
> questions, but I could not find easy answers ...)
> s.

Not stupid, but what is stupid is why nobody
asked these questions before 1997.
Before Perlmutter found SN1A luminosities implied
an accelerated universe it was known that inflation
acted on the universe in much the way I illustrate
above.  I suppose everyone was sure that /\ = 0.
However, once /\ =/= 0 the accelerated universe
and dark energy are almost manditory.  Why nobody
saw this before 10 years ago is almost a mystery.

> " One must be able to say
> 'tables, chairs, beer-mugs'
> each time in place of
> 'points, lines, planes' "
> -David Hilbert
> (returning home to K?rnigsberg from
> attending a lecture in Halle, by Hans Wiener,
> on the foundations and structure of geometry).






From extropy at unreasonable.com  Wed Oct  3 19:55:31 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:55:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Party scheduling
Message-ID: <200710031957.l93JvBj80965@unreasonable.com>

My next party is upcoming, and I want to set tentative dates for 
2008. If you are a potential or likely attendee, please let me know 
which alternative dates work better for you. The actual dates are 
chosen to best accommodate folks, particularly someone who's rarely 
in the Boston vicinity. This coming party will probably be scheduled 
around Joe and Gay Haldeman's availability, since they're only around 
in the fall.

Parties are at my house in southern New Hampshire, on a Saturday, 
from around 2 pm on. Some people have other commitments and arrive 
late. We've traditionally gotten a massive Chinese take-out order; 
last time we went out to the excellent Korean sushi restaurant down 
the road. Most people leave around 9 or 10; there tends to be a few 
staying to 1 am or so.

Attendees are all smart, with a broad range of interests and an open 
mind. About half I know from our shared spheres -- extropian, 
cryonics, libertarian, sf, space advocacy, AI, nanotech, etc. The 
rest are friends from other circles all of whom can hold their own in 
conversation.

There's usually a ride available for someone car-less, and we've had 
groups drive up from places like NYC.

In planning when to hold the parties, I look at predictable conflicts 
that I know I or regulars would have -- e.g., holidays, conferences, 
conventions. This led to these candidates:

Next party	Oct 20 [most likely], Nov 3, or Nov 10
Winter		Jan 26 or Feb 2, 2008
Spring		Apr 12 or May 3
Summer	Jul 26 or Aug 2
Fall		Oct 18 or Oct 25

The summer party is outdoors, extending the invitation to kids and 
dogs. (But cerebral kids who'd want to participate in the regular 
gusher of conversation are welcome at any of the parties.)

Also, if you can't come but have a friend near here who you think 
would fit right in, tell me about them. And if you're going to be 
around here non-adjacent to a party, give a holler. I can probably 
rustle up a coterie for dinner.


-- David.



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct  3 14:54:58 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:54:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>

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From michaelanissimov at gmail.com  Tue Oct  2 14:16:33 2007
From: michaelanissimov at gmail.com (Michael Anissimov)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:16:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Futurism in the Geekipedia
In-Reply-To: <20071002063147.GS4005@leitl.org>
References: <29666bf30710011304m208d911cy7e39de1021816bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ff585550710011349k3688e1f6x7333e0983c3c4517@mail.gmail.com>
	<29666bf30710011442oed1c285t8854d53b23401c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071002063147.GS4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <51ce64f10710020716ofb019ap8f018798f922c0d6@mail.gmail.com>

More evidence that WIRED sucks!  It should have been put to bed when the
bubble burst.

By the way it's funny to see posts from wta-talk and ExI play out in the
same thread.  Gmail merges them all together.

Wta-talk and ExI are "sister lists", isn't that cute?

-- 
Michael Anissimov
Lifeboat Foundation   http://lifeboat.com
http://acceleratingfuture.com
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 15:06:11 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:06:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero
	EnergyEmptySpace:
In-Reply-To: <000601c80536$17e55ee0$a2b81f97@archimede>
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede>
	<200710011654.13514.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<000601c80536$17e55ee0$a2b81f97@archimede>
Message-ID: <62c14240710030806n7bcc07f2xf524518ad213997e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/07, scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:
> The best possibility seems that the expansion is fueled
> by our lack of understanding :-)

armchair physicist thought:  Could the expansion be the increase in
entropy due to the passage of time.  (our awareness of time as a
passage)  Maybe the information required to reverse computation of
this universe is represented in the subspace (to borrow a scifi term)
that seems to be expanding space.  If plausible, it would suggest that
at the 'end of time' the amount of reversal potential would be
maximized so another 'big bang' would start a forward process of
uncomputing the universe.  What if the universal Turing tape is a
palindrome written on a moebius strip?


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  2 21:04:16 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:04:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.

I must agree with Michael Butler, that, depending on what you mean by
it, this assertion could seriously diminish your credibility on this
matter.   Could you elaborate?

-- 
Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you
                     know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Oct  4 06:08:15 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:08:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710040855.l948t4Sv015726@reva.xtremeunix.com>



________________________________________
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:55 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: New Article

At 12:52 PM 10/2/2007, Sergio wrote:


A transcript of Sam Harris' recent (controversial) speech at the Atheist
Alliance Conference is now available on the Washington Post /
Newsweekwebsite.

It can be read here: The Problem with Atheism

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/10/the_problem_wi
th_atheism.html




This is the first time I had read Harris, altho I had heard of him.  In some
ways I actually like Harris' approach better than Dawkins.  I will give this
more thought and check back in a week or so.

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct  4 08:56:27 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:56:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/07, hkhenson wrote:
<snip>
>  Of course even understanding the problem may not lead to a solution.  And
> it may be that the explanation is too bitter a pill.
>
>  If anyone has a way to get Sam Harris' attention, please let me know.
>


He is making the case that all religions are not equal and the Muslim
religion is much more likely to produce jihadist murderers than other
religions.
So there is also a specific Muslim problem to deal with.

Sam Harris has a website with a 'contact the author' page.
Obviously he gets a *lot* of email, but you are probably famous enough
yourself to get his attention, if you name-drop a bit.  ;)

<http://www.samharris.org/site/contact_author/>

BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Oct  3 19:49:02 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:49:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [wta-talk] Fwd: The FP e-Alert: Why Climate Change Can't
	Be Stopped
In-Reply-To: <F2446F44-E5D4-48C8-B58F-CBDEA700339B@mac.com>
References: <LYRIS-729198-232199-2007.10.01-22.26.07--sergiomartinez#mac.com@list.carnegieendowment.org>
	<F2446F44-E5D4-48C8-B58F-CBDEA700339B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710031249w54cb297dx7fe76b159eafd21d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/07, Sergio M.L. Tarrero <sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com> wrote:
>
>  Some of you might find some of these articles (my own selection from FP's last e-Alert) interesting...
>
> WHY CLIMATE CHANGE CAN'T BE STOPPED
> By Paul J. Saunders and Vaughan TurekianEnvironmental advocates have finally managed to put the issue of global warming at the top of the world's agenda. But the scientific, economic, and political realities may mean that their efforts are too little, too late.

Mmhhh. "Too little, too late" in connection to what? If there were,
say, a a global consensus on a 100% chance of life extinction on the
planet Earth in two-years' time depending on anthropic emissions of
greenhouse gases, does one really believe that the "scientific,
economic and political realities" would prevent us to do anything
about it? I suspect that most people would kill on sight anybody
suspected of such emissions, in spite of any conceivable inertia.

The real issue is the break-even point between the expected costs of
GW vs. the expected costs of forced gas emission reductions vs. the
costs and collateral effects of possible alternative measures.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Oct  4 21:30:43 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 23:30:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710041430q58b558ccqa3c52a254b179947@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/4/07, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> He is making the case that all religions are not equal and the Muslim
> religion is much more likely to produce jihadist murderers than other
> religions.

On the other hand, one should recognise and remember that Muslims are
amongst monotheists the least opposed to H+ and self-determination
technologies, including PDG and eugenetic abortion.

Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Oct  4 21:56:34 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:56:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>

At 02:04 PM 10/2/2007 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:

>Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> > 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
>
>I must agree with Michael Butler, that, depending on what you mean by
>it, this assertion could seriously diminish your credibility

Has instantly done so.

>on this matter.

On any matter, by contagion. Shame; but it's always useful to have 
these triangulation data.

2 cents.

Damien Broderick



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Oct  4 22:42:28 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:42:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>

At 01:56 AM 10/4/2007, BillK wrote:
>On 10/3/07, hkhenson wrote:
><snip>
> >  Of course even understanding the problem may not lead to a solution.  And
> > it may be that the explanation is too bitter a pill.
> >
> >  If anyone has a way to get Sam Harris' attention, please let me know.
> >
>He is making the case that all religions are not equal and the Muslim
>religion is much more likely to produce jihadist murderers than other
>religions.
>So there is also a specific Muslim problem to deal with.

I would disagree with him there.  *All* religions can inspire 
warriors to jump up and down and yell "kill, kill."  That's the 
evolved *function* of religions and if one has drifted away from its 
function, it can jolly well swim back as needed.  Remember the crusades!

>Sam Harris has a website with a 'contact the author' page.
>Obviously he gets a *lot* of email, but you are probably famous enough
>yourself to get his attention, if you name-drop a bit.  ;)

You overrate my fame.

Keith 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Oct  4 15:51:23 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 08:51:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>

Dollar gas

With enough investment, engineers can do just 
about anything not forbidden by physical laws.

Gasoline is just a form of stored chemical 
energy.  It is compact because 65% of the mass of 
the reaction products (CO2 and water) comes from 
oxygen in the air.  Gasoline or equal chemical 
energy sources can be synthesized from air and 
water at reasonable cost if you have a source of really inexpensive energy.

How inexpensive?  As a rough estimate, the cost 
of electrical energy will have to be 10-20% of 
the cost of the product.  The energy in gallon of 
gasoline is about 40 kWh or at 5 cents a kWh 
about two dollars, implying that we could make 
gasoline from electricity today at some $10-20 a 
gallon.  The cost of energy to run a synthetic 
fuel plant would have to fall to the sub cent per 
kWh range to expect liquid fuels at a dollar a gallon.

Is that possible?  Assuming solar, i.e., no cost 
for fuel, the cost is mostly due to capital 
costs.  There are about 8,000 hours in a 
year.  Taking a 4 year payback, that?s 32,000 
hours, which means (selling the power for a 
cent/kWh) the installed cost of a kW has to be $320 or less.

Is *this* possible?  At extremely high levels of 
production, costs approach the cost of materials 
and energy.  The parts of a solar power satellite 
consist of supporting wings, solar cells, 
transmitter and ground station.  A kW is 2-4 
square meters of wing surface.  The estimated 
mass, including the transmitter is 2kg/kW, half 
of which will probable be Invar.  Because of the 
35% nickel content of Invar, the material cost of 
the support structure will be in the range of $10 
an installed kW.  The cost of solar cells in the 
extreme case is mostly due to the energy required 
to reduce sand (zero cost) and purify the 
silicon.  In very high volume, this would be 
about 40kWh/kg or $4 down to 40 cents at the 
target energy cost.  The space elevator energy 
cost is about a Gw-day to lift a Gw of capacity, 
so an installed kW would take 24 kWh, 24 cents at 
the target energy price.  In the limiting case, 
it seems possible that an installed kW in space 
could be done for under $200 a kW.

There will be some low cost structural mass in 
the rectennas because it takes 4 square meters to 
collect a kW.  It should take in the order of 100 
microwave diodes, but those are already in the 
sub cent range.  Diodes, antenna support, and 
DC/AC power conversion (based on the cost of PC 
power supplies) might be in the $100/kW 
range.  (For a sanity check, 1/3kW PC power 
supplies cost no more than $30 to make.)  Land is 
assumed at zero cost because rectennas can be installed over farmland.

So while initial power sat energy would be sold 
into the market a 5-10 cents a kWh, there are no 
barriers I can see to the cost of bus bar energy 
to synthetic fuel plants falling over time into 
the sub cent per kWh?implying that dollar a 
gallon (or even less) fuels are within physical reality.

Of course, the lower you want to drive cost, the 
higher the initial investment.  Even making use 
of surplus items such as the Enterprise for the 
surface anchor, the cost of the space elevator 
project may be the most expense project ever under taken.

It just depends on how much people want dollar gasoline.

Keith Henson

PS  This sort of material really should go on a 
wiki.  Anyone have a wiki site available?



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Oct  4 15:44:31 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:44:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] SENS 3 talks now online
Message-ID: <200710041544.l94FiVLV025461@ms-smtp-02.texas.rr.com>

Forwarded from Fabio:

>Not to be missed!
>
><http://www.sens.org/sens3/talks.htm>http://www.sens.org/sens3/talks.htm
>
>Or here for the [excellent!] streaming video versions:
>
><http://richardjschueler.com/wp-gallery2.php?g2_itemId=56847>http://richardjschueler.com/wp-gallery2.php?g2_itemId=56847
-------------- next part --------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct  4 23:15:44 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:15:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/4/07, hkhenson wrote:
> Dollar gas
>
> With enough investment, engineers can do just
> about anything not forbidden by physical laws.
>
<snip>
> So while initial power sat energy would be sold
> into the market a 5-10 cents a kWh, there are no
> barriers I can see to the cost of bus bar energy
> to synthetic fuel plants falling over time into
> the sub cent per kWh?implying that dollar a
> gallon (or even less) fuels are within physical reality.
>
> Of course, the lower you want to drive cost, the
> higher the initial investment.  Even making use
> of surplus items such as the Enterprise for the
> surface anchor, the cost of the space elevator
> project may be the most expense project ever under taken.
>
> It just depends on how much people want dollar gasoline.
>


Not that much, is the answer.

Yes, it would be nice, but not if it needs much effort to get it.

The present US price is around 3 USD per US gallon.
Here in the UK we fall about laughing at such a ridiculously cheap price.

The UK has just had a tax increase on fuel, making it about 98p per litre.
The exchange rate is 2.04 USD to 1 UK pound.
I US gallon = 3.785 litres.
So, converting,
0.98 x 3.785 x 2.04 = 7.56 USD per US gallon.

But there is still little interest in alternative fuels in the UK.
Partly because mileage driven is smaller also, and partly because
narrower, congested roads encourage the use of smaller cars that use
less fuel..

The secret to high fuel prices is to have slow but steady increases.
People don't really notice the water getting hotter if it is gradual
enough.


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 02:04:22 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:04:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/4/07, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> The secret to high fuel prices is to have slow but steady increases.
> People don't really notice the water getting hotter if it is gradual
> enough.

Nice, but I don't want to be a boiled frog.  You do have a point
though about the effort needed to get cheaper energy is what prevents
us from doing so.

I'm surprised Keith would suggest we would even consider doing real
work to get cheaper power.  As long as the "haves" retain enough
influence to squeeze small amounts of energy from increasingly larger
amounts of the "have not," then there is no motivation to risk the
status quo.

I wonder; even if the metaphorical increase in temperature remains
linear will we build the replacement power source before we've
exhausted the resources to do so?  What will it take to motivate us to
make the investment?


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct  5 04:50:09 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:50:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191559734_1056@S1.cableone.net>

At 07:04 PM 10/4/2007, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>On 10/4/07, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The secret to high fuel prices is to have slow but steady increases.
> > People don't really notice the water getting hotter if it is gradual
> > enough.
>
>Nice, but I don't want to be a boiled frog.  You do have a point
>though about the effort needed to get cheaper energy is what prevents
>us from doing so.

Until the idea of combining space elevators and solar power 
satellites came along, there really wasn't a known way to get cheaper 
energy.  Well, actually there is, but you probably consider gigadeath 
undesirable.  Perhaps I should post a screed on that.

>I'm surprised Keith would suggest we would even consider doing real
>work to get cheaper power.  As long as the "haves" retain enough
>influence to squeeze small amounts of energy from increasingly larger
>amounts of the "have not," then there is no motivation to risk the
>status quo.

I am not adverse to your basic thesis, but I don't see your 
point.  How about some examples?

>I wonder; even if the metaphorical increase in temperature remains
>linear will we build the replacement power source before we've
>exhausted the resources to do so?  What will it take to motivate us to
>make the investment?

Well, the very first thing is to get widespread agreement that space 
elevators building solar power satellites are even *possible.*  I 
think they are, but is that just wishful thinking?  If they are 
possible, can we make a case for them providing a reasonable (or 
better an unreasonable) return on investment.  Again, that's going to 
take serious work, far more than what one person can do.

There are many ways this could turn out.  For example, 
nanotechnology/uploading could massively reduce the need for energy 
as could live, power producing roof plants.  But if you stick to the 
sources we are using today, then we are going to be in dire straights 
as we slide down the back half of peak oil.

Keith Henson 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct  5 05:01:31 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:01:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The bright side of Gigadeath.
Message-ID: <1191560416_1285@S4.cableone.net>


Before expounding on the down side of populations in the billions, 
large populations definitely have some positive points.

First is the advantage of large markets.  A lot of products, drugs, 
computer chips, software, movies and cars have high development 
costs.  The cost have to be spread over large production runs to make 
the cost per unit reasonable.  This is an application of extreme 
specialization (see Adam Smith's description of pin makers).

And large populations make for larger number of those 3-6 SD geniuses 
that drag the rest of the population along in their wake.

But large populations are the direct or indirect cause of virtually 
every problem we have today from global warming and lose of 
biodiversity to terrorism and wars.  Engineering in the broad sense 
has stayed just ahead of population growth for some decades, but 
business as usual can't continue on the down slope of peak oil.

What we have been doing in the last 4 generations is converting oil 
into people through food.  Running out of oil is the same as running 
out of food.  You can see the leading edge as corn ethanol drives up 
the price of tortillas in Mexico.  Unless something replaces oil in a 
really big way, the human population will fall along with the available energy.

This isn't the first time human populations have been cut way back or 
even wiped out.  Jarrad Diamond in _Collapse_ discusses the Greenland 
Norse (wiped out), the Easter Island Polynesians and the Mayans. 
Steven Lablank describes the near total destruction of the southwest 
corn farmers.

It is true that history repeats itself (though never exactly).  The 
reason is that the stone-age mechanisms that lead to war and the 
death of up to half the adults in some tribal societies still 
exist.  They just don't get turned on as often in places with slow 
population growth below economic growth.

Terrorism is a stunted version of war that occurs when conventional 
war is inhibited by wide gaps between the ability of a stressed 
population to wage war and the inhibition (at present) of technically 
advanced societies to impose "biblical" solutions.  The German 
extermination of the Jews, the bombing of Dresden and Tokyo and the 
use of nuclear weapons on Japan shows that this inhabitation by 
advanced societies is a chancy thing.

Given how dependant economic activity is on energy, you can see how 
this couples.  It has always been self correcting.  With a fall to 
about 1 billion people, energy problems would go away for a considerable time.

Keith Henson



From scerir at libero.it  Fri Oct  5 07:56:54 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:56:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and
	Non-ZeroEnergyEmptySpace:
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com><200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com><000401c803f2$b157a820$89931f97@archimede><200710011654.13514.kanzure@gmail.com><000601c80536$17e55ee0$a2b81f97@archimede>
	<62c14240710030806n7bcc07f2xf524518ad213997e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c80725$4e91edf0$6d941f97@archimede>

From: "Mike Dougherty" 

> armchair physicist thought:  Could the expansion 
> be the increase in entropy due to the passage of time.

To explain expansion cosmologists use dark, exotic, 
virtual, phantom matters and processes, and they
'are often wrong, but never in doubt', as Lev Landau
declared. So your thought could be a professional
cosmologist thought. 

I have a personal theory, that expansion is caused 
by the impossibility to delete quantum states (it is
called principle of conservation of quantum information,
the opposite of the quantum no cloning theorem). 
In other words there is, everywhere, a toxic quantum 
spam that inflates the universe :-)

( BTW, principle of conservation of quantum information
and second principle of thermodynamics have something
in common. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0306044 )
  



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct  5 08:32:36 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:32:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071005083236.GK4005@leitl.org>

On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 10:04:22PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> I wonder; even if the metaphorical increase in temperature remains
> linear will we build the replacement power source before we've

PV electricity will have crossed over somewhen within the next decade,
depending on where, how high fossil will go, and whether CuInSe and
CdTe will be there on time.

> exhausted the resources to do so?  What will it take to motivate us to
> make the investment?

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 14:13:38 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:13:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dollar a gallon gasoline
In-Reply-To: <1191559734_1056@S1.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191513007_20699@S1.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710041615x33b6c152o8e7f719b5a323011@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710041904m363823bdn4ce3d381dee9b7d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191559734_1056@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <62c14240710050713mb82d27aheecc483e4007683a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> At 07:04 PM 10/4/2007, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> >I'm surprised Keith would suggest we would even consider doing real
> >work to get cheaper power.  As long as the "haves" retain enough
> >influence to squeeze small amounts of energy from increasingly larger
> >amounts of the "have not," then there is no motivation to risk the
> >status quo.
>
> I am not adverse to your basic thesis, but I don't see your
> point.  How about some examples?

Pharaoh had no reason to enlighten his people.  The entire society was
so convinced of the legitimacy of Pharaoh's rule that when Ankenaten
tried to bring change, he was tolerated for the duration of his reign
(as god on earth) then his changes were undone and the old regime was
reinstated.  Is this an extreme case?  Possibly, but it is blatantly
obvious.

The Indian caste system is another example of how the status quo is
defended against change by those who hold power.  I'm sure there have
been improvements in the public perception of this culture, but the
personal biases remain long after the official policy has been made
more palatable.

European monarchy managed change by granting concessions to feudal
lords - giving them a vested interest in preserving the "order" that
kept resources flowing up the chain.  The average person lived in
deplorable conditions while those at the top were in luxury. For
example; who would turn down the opportunity to live at Versailles in
18th century France?  If not Versailles, consider the Forbidden City
in 15th century China.  Those who had consolidated power were not
about to allow change that would threaten their standard of living.

I don't think that basic premise is much different across recorded history.

The motivation I asked about being a requirement for a space elevator
is probably analogous to finding a sea route to Asian spices and
textiles for European entrepreneurs.  I believe educated people in
Columbus' day knew the world was not flat, but then-common knowledge
was that his proposal was incredibly dangerous and probably not worth
the risk.  Cortez was another opportunist who secured a huge win for
those in power in exchange for some of his own.  Imagine where we'd be
today if European expansionism wasn't so resource-hungry (and damned
clever about it) in the 16th century.

(I jumped around a lot, citing no sources for my proposition.  I hope
I can get away with a referral to General Knowledge since I've only
referenced the commonly covered history topics that I have been
exposed to)


From jonkc at att.net  Fri Oct  5 16:21:32 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:21:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks  (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
Message-ID: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>

"Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com> Wrote:

> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job,
> seriously inside.

I won't say that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but I do believe the
above deserves to be somewhere on the top ten list of the stupidest
remarks ever made on the Extropian List. At least the UFO, ESP, 
Big Foot, and Cold Fusion people's ideas were not vicious.

  John K Clark









From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct  5 19:18:52 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:18:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks  (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John K Clark
> Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,in 10 Easy
> Steps)
> 
> "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com> Wrote:
> 
> > 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job,
> > seriously inside.
> 
> I won't say that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but I do believe
> the
> above deserves to be somewhere on the top ten list of the stupidest
> remarks ever made on the Extropian List. At least the UFO, ESP,
> Big Foot, and Cold Fusion people's ideas were not vicious.
> 
>   John K Clark



I propose a different way to look at this, one that might appeal to the
mathematically minded among ExIers, which are many methinks.

When someone suggests something like number 1 above, we often dismiss it
with an "oh, that's silly" or equivalent.  Instead, let us assign to it a
probability of being true.  The group of truthers that recently confronted
Geraldo insisting that 911 was an inside job, for instance, would assign a
probability of at least .5, otherwise they wouldn't be out there.  Some may
assign it as high as .95.  Few there would rationally suggest such an
extraordinary claim would have a greater than 95% chance of being true, ja?


But even the most skeptical among us would likely assign some probability,
perhaps 1E-6, that 911 was an inside job.  I would be comfortable with at
least one in a million; I would estimate the chances at about ten in a
million, 1E-5.  The way Samantha worded her comment number 1, we might
estimate her belief in the meme 911 was an inside job, a conspiracy
involving top levels of the US government at greater than .8, otherwise she
might have stated it as "911 was probably an inside job".

As a game or thought experiment, rate comment 1 above.  If you think 911 was
a conspiracy of US gov (call the meme 911con ala ideas futures) was probably
true, then 911con = .6 or if you think it was possibly true, then 911con =
.2 and so on.

For me, 911con = 1E-5.

Now we can derive a constant K(911con) by taking the ratio of another
person's Con911 with yours.  In this case my K(911con) with respect to
Samantha would be K(sp/sa) = (1e-5/8E-1) = 1.2E-5.  

Then when any meme that is related to this topic is uttered by Samantha, I
look up in my database K(sp/sa) and multiply thru by this constant to derive
how much that belief will impact my own.  

Clearly if someone with whom you generally agree utters a comment, that
often has influence on ones own thinking.  If they espouse memes which you
consider silly, then the K goes way down and one is not greatly influenced
by their comments.

spike





  





From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 21:10:51 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:10:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710051410n2fba1479yc2a6f6a9bbc2204f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Clearly if someone with whom you generally agree utters a comment, that
> often has influence on ones own thinking.  If they espouse memes which you
> consider silly, then the K goes way down and one is not greatly influenced
> by their comments.

That is exactly why Reasonable People have so little hope of
retrieving those who have succumbed to the Religion meme ...and vice
versa.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 22:30:29 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:30:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/4/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> At 02:04 PM 10/2/2007 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
>
> >Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > > 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
> >
> >I must agree with Michael Butler, that, depending on what you mean by
> >it, this assertion could seriously diminish your credibility
>
> Has instantly done so.
>
> >on this matter.
>
> On any matter, by contagion. Shame; but it's always useful to have
> these triangulation data.
>
> 2 cents.
>
> Damien Broderick

Damien,

I agree, again.  But I have often observed Samantha fighting the good
fight, so I wanted to give her an opportunity to explain her position.

So many seemingly intelligent, seemingly normal folks have fallen for
the "911 Truth" hoohah.  Incredible! So, I've returned to the question
"What in the human animal makes this "brain/behavioral disease"
possible?"   My jumping-off-point is tribalism and the peer
pressure/echo chamber of the mob, but I want more substance.  I would
like to hear from the EP folk

Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you
                     know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct  5 23:23:03 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:23:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,
 in 10  Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710051410n2fba1479yc2a6f6a9bbc2204f@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<62c14240710051410n2fba1479yc2a6f6a9bbc2204f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191626509_37232@S1.cableone.net>

At 02:10 PM 10/5/2007, you wrote:
>On 10/5/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Clearly if someone with whom you generally agree utters a comment, that
> > often has influence on ones own thinking.  If they espouse memes which you
> > consider silly, then the K goes way down and one is not greatly influenced
> > by their comments.
>
>That is exactly why Reasonable People have so little hope of
>retrieving those who have succumbed to the Religion meme ...and vice
>versa.

There is a human trait to be infected by religious memes, but no "the 
Religion meme."  There is a tendency for humans to play games, but no 
"the game meme" either.  Lots of games some related, lots of 
religions, some of them related.

Keith Henson 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct  6 00:13:12 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:13:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>

At 03:30 PM 10/5/2007, Jeff Davis wrote:

snip

>So many seemingly intelligent, seemingly normal folks have fallen for
>the "911 Truth" hoohah.  Incredible! So, I've returned to the question
>"What in the human animal makes this "brain/behavioral disease"
>possible?"   My jumping-off-point is tribalism and the peer
>pressure/echo chamber of the mob, but I want more substance.  I would
>like to hear from the EP folk

I guess I am the resident EP guy, though if there are others, please speak up.

You are right about "tribalism and the peer pressure/echo chamber of 
the mob" but you need to go back even further and think about the 
genes that built humans with such traits.

The basic theory of EP is that if humans have a behavioral trait 
today it is the result of selection (ultimately of genes) in the EEA.

So you need rephrase such questions into how the trait you are 
thinking about could have made a difference in the reproductive 
success of our ancestors.  You need to watch out for the trait being 
a side effect of something that was under selection pressure (like 
drug addiction being a side effect of chemical social brain reward mechanisms).

I have seen people make a case (in, for example, _Human Inference_ by 
Nesbitt and Ross) that making good enough decisions fast was a 
positively selected trait.  Jumping to the conclusion that a bush 
shaking was due to a bear wasn't a bad idea when there were bears in 
the bushes.  That extended to hearing from someone else there was a 
bear in the cave or the next valley.  This could be corrected by 
looking to see if the bear had moved on.

Now if something like this is an evolved behavior trait in humans, it 
isn't hard to see how vivid and memorable stories (memes) of bears 
[class dangerous] could spread among people and how it would be hard 
to correct them, especially when part of the meme is "don't trust the 
authorities," and you don't have any personal way to see the bear has 
left the cave.

Belief in these sorts of stories isn't likely to threaten your 
survival or reproductive success even today.  All it's likely to do 
is downgrade your reputation among a statistically insignificant pool 
of people.

Keith Henson

PS  One of the persistent stories I have read about is that the feds 
didn't investigate to find who was behind the well known speculation 
of AA and UAL stock in the days before 9/11 (and won't let it be 
privately investigated either).  I have no way to verify this 
story.  My own experience with the government has not been good as 
you are well aware.  I don't think our leaders are that competent 
enough to run 9/11 as an operation.










From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 00:21:55 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:21:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stop Congress from Restricting Access to DHEA
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV17840F4641A10B57155EFAA3AA0@phx.gbl>

The following comes from Ray Kurzweil & Dr. Terry Grossman's "Fantastic
Voyage," page 285: 

 

DHEA, or dehydroepiandrosterone, is the most abundant steroid hormone
produced in the human body.  In the past, DHEA was thought to simply be a
precursor to other hormones, which no particular physiological function of
it's own.  But the late William Regelson, M.D., a well-known anti-aging
physician-researcher, has referred to DHEA as the "superstar of the super
hormones."  DHEA levels peak around 25 years of age, then steadily decline
by 50 percent in your 40s and fall further to around 5 percent of youthful
levels by age 85.  Does this mean DHEA could play a role in longevity?  Some
animal experiments have indeed confirmed that taking DHEA can slow down
aging and increase longevity." [citations removed].

 

Benefits of DHEA include: decrease risk of heart disease, fights stress,
boosts immune function, reduces depression, improves memory, relieves
symptoms of menopause, prevents bone loss, enhances libido, improves insulin
sensitivity and glucose tolerance, and increases lean body mass.

 

In June, 2007, the Life Extension Foundation published an article on the
benefits of DHEA as well as their view as to why some drug companies are
lobbying Congress to ban DHEA:
http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0
<http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=912&query=dhe
a&hiword=DHEAA%20DHEAS%20dhea%20>
&page_id=912&query=dhea&hiword=DHEAA%20DHEAS%20dhea%20

 

Additional articles discuss DHEA as a weight loss and depression supplement:


http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?id=1044; and

 

http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=1020 

 

Additional Background: 

 

In 2004, Congress passed and the President signed into law the Anabolic
Steroid Control Act, which provided for the listing of steroid hormone
precursors such as androstenedione ("andro") under the Controlled Substances
Act. This statute now prohibits the marketing of these substances as dietary
supplements by regulating them as Schedule III controlled substances.
However, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act contained a provision that
exempted the dietary ingredient DHEA, a prohormone with little or no
potential for abuse as a performance-enhancing ingredient, but with
demonstrated value in supporting normal hormone levels during aging. 

 

DHEA offers many benefits and is most frequently used by elderly consumers
and others with deficient hormone levels. It has been on the market as a
dietary supplement for the last 20 years and currently has sales of about
$50 million, almost entirely for uses related to aging. DHEA is not like
illegal anabolic steroids such as testosterone or precursors such as
androstenedione, which have been the targeted for federal and state
restrictions over the last two years. Unlike these other substances, DHEA
cannot be used by younger, healthy adults to build muscle mass or enhance
performance, nor is there evidence that DHEA would product the negative
effects commonly associated with steroid abuse.

 

Acting on false information and understandably concerned about the public
outrage over the abuse of steroids, Senators Charles Grassley (Iowa), John
McCain (Arizona), and Richard Durbin (Illinois) have introduced S. 762,
which would nullify the DHEA exemption contained in the Anabolic Steroid
Control Act and effectively place DHEA on the Schedule III controlled
substances list. 

 

 

Senate Bill 762 & House Bill 1249 would restrict access to DHEA 

 

Your access to DHEA is in jeopardy! The Senate is considering a bill, S.
762, to classify DHEA as an anabolic steroid, adding it to the list of
controlled substances and removing it from the market. H.R. 1249 is the
companion bill in the U.S. House of Representatives. Your immediate help is
needed to keep this safe and effective dietary supplement legal and
accessible. 

 

DHEA is not an anabolic steroid. It is a naturally occurring hormone that
has a wide range of benefits, including maintaining muscle strength and
strong bones, boosting immunity, and improving mood and sleep patterns.
Further studies suggest that DHEA may be helpful for such conditions as
obesity, cancer and Alzheimers disease. DHEA dietary supplements, which have
been on the market for over 20 years, are derived from a plant in the wild
yam family; for more information. -

http://www.capwiz.com/nnfa/issues/bills/?bill=9492216 "

 

We need your help to keep DHEA legal. Send a message to Congress asking your
Senators and Representative to oppose S. 762 and H.R. 1249 and any amendment
to restrict access to DHEA to minors. Congress should not restrict access to
a dietary supplement that has given health to millions of Americans. Take
action now! 

 

 

 

James Clement

 

 

 

 

 

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From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 01:05:29 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 18:05:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>

The reaction which individuals have to statements like "911 was almost
certainly an inside job," primarily reflects their personal worldview more
than it reflects their rationality.  One's worldview will be different if
their beliefs include examples of secret government wars, cover-ups, ops,
etc.  Such a person might rationally view such a statement with less
skepticism than someone who's worldview discounted such beliefs.  

For example, if you grew up in an environment where the Police are looked
upon with fear and suspicion, and your only personal experience with them
includes being intimidated, roughed up, and degraded by them, then your
worldview will result in less skepticism about statements like "the police
framed O.J. Simpson" than someone from an opposite background.

So, when someone makes a statement like "911 was almost certainly an inside
job," we can probably speculate on their worldview with some accuracy.  This
however, tells us nothing about the veracity of the statement.  Rather than
condemning someone for making such a statement, IMHO we should either try to
understand their worldview or ask them for the facts upon which they base
their opinions.  Either answer will help broaden our understanding,
regardless of the ultimate veracity of the statement.

James Clement



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 01:39:50 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:39:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <1191626509_37232@S1.cableone.net>
References: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<62c14240710051410n2fba1479yc2a6f6a9bbc2204f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191626509_37232@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <62c14240710051839i58fa61f3scb46101c194bc399@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> There is a human trait to be infected by religious memes, but no "the
> Religion meme."  There is a tendency for humans to play games, but no
> "the game meme" either.  Lots of games some related, lots of
> religions, some of them related.

noted.  Was my point lost by the poor word choice or was there no point to lose?


From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sat Oct  6 01:29:50 2007
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:29:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <4706E50E.8010105@mydruthers.com>

> PS  One of the persistent stories I have read about is that the feds 
> didn't investigate to find who was behind the well known speculation 
> of AA and UAL stock in the days before 9/11 (and won't let it be 
> privately investigated either).  I have no way to verify this 
> story. 

snopes.com to the rescue:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

> Claim: In the days just prior to the 11 September 2001, large 
> quantities of stock in United and American Airlines were traded by 
> persons with foreknowledge of the upcoming 9/11 attacks.
> 
> Status:   False. 


Chris
-- 
I think that, for babies, every day is first love in Paris. Every
wobbly step is skydiving, every game of hide and seek is Einstein
in 1905.--Alison Gopnik (http://edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html#gopnik)

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
Blog:   http://pancrit.org



From jnh at vt11.net  Sat Oct  6 04:00:54 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 00:00:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <20071006040054.GL1016@vt11.net>

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 05:13:12PM -0700, hkhenson wrote:
> PS  One of the persistent stories I have read about is that the feds 
> didn't investigate to find who was behind the well known speculation 
> of AA and UAL stock in the days before 9/11 (and won't let it be 
> privately investigated either).  I have no way to verify this 
> story.

The 9/11 Commission Report briefly mentions this briefly, but only in
a footnote.

Note 130, page 499 (p. 516 in the PDF) states:

 130.  Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of
 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity
 in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks.  Some unusual
 trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an
 innocuous explanation.  For example, the volume of put options--
 investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price-- surged in
 the parent companies of United Airlines on September 6 and American
 Airlines on September 10-- highly suspicious trading on its face. 
 Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no
 connection with 9/11.  A single U.S.-based institutional investor
 with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL
 puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included
 buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10.  Similarly, much
 of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was
 traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to
 its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these
 trades.  These examples typify the evidence examined by the
 investigation.

 The SEC and the FBI, aided by other agencies and the securities
 industry, devoted enormous resources to investigating this issue,
 including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments.These
 investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently
 proved innocuous. Joseph Cella interview (Sept. 16, 2003; May 7, 2004;
 May 10-11, 2004); FBI briefing (Aug. 15, 2003); SEC memo, Division of
 Enforcement to SEC Chair and Commissioners, "Pre-September 11, 2001
 Trading Review," May 15, 2002; Ken Breen interview (Apr. 23, 2004); Ed
 G. interview (Feb. 3, 2004).


Notice that they decline to mention the particular institutional
investor involved, and don't say anything about the suspicious
connection of A. B. Brown / Deutsche Bank to most of these trades.

> My own experience with the government has not been good as you are
> well aware.  I don't think our leaders are that competent enough to
> run 9/11 as an operation.

Not many think the political leadership as a whole had any
involvement.  Certain individuals, perhaps.

-- 
Jordan.


From jnh at vt11.net  Sat Oct  6 03:28:27 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:28:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <005c01c807b4$fc803ef0$f580bcd0$@com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<005c01c807b4$fc803ef0$f580bcd0$@com>
Message-ID: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 06:05:29PM -0700, James Clement wrote:
> The reaction which individuals have to statements like "911 was almost
> certainly an inside job," primarily reflects their personal worldview more
> than it reflects their rationality.  One's worldview will be different if
> their beliefs include examples of secret government wars, cover-ups, ops,
> etc.  Such a person might rationally view such a statement with less
> skepticism than someone who's worldview discounted such beliefs.  
> 
> For example, if you grew up in an environment where the Police are looked
> upon with fear and suspicion, and your only personal experience with them
> includes being intimidated, roughed up, and degraded by them, then your
> worldview will result in less skepticism about statements like "the police
> framed O.J. Simpson" than someone from an opposite background.
> 
> So, when someone makes a statement like "911 was almost certainly an inside
> job," we can probably speculate on their worldview with some accuracy.  This
> however, tells us nothing about the veracity of the statement.  Rather than
> condemning someone for making such a statement, IMHO we should either try to
> understand their worldview or ask them for the facts upon which they base
> their opinions.  Either answer will help broaden our understanding,
> regardless of the ultimate veracity of the statement.

Good points.  Conversely, coming to accept, or even seriously consider
such a hypothesis, however reluctantly, can be enough to cause a shift
in one's worldview.

There are certainly a lot of ridiculous theories surrounding 9/11, but
amidst the inanity, some more reasoned arguments do exist.


Here's an interesting paper focusing on the three WTC building
collapses, from a physics perspective:

 http://journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf

It was written by Dr. Steven E. Jones, formerly of Brigham Young
University, and hosted on the BYU website when I first came across it.
Since then, political controversity surrounding this subject has
forced the author into early retirement.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

Jones is a devout Mormon, but try to look past that and judge his work
on its merits.  I'd be interested to hear any reactions to the above
paper.



> James Clement
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Jordan.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 04:13:09 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:13:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b801c807cf$71c06cc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jeff writes

> So many seemingly intelligent, seemingly normal folks have fallen for
> the "911 Truth" hoohah.  Incredible! So, I've returned to the question
> "What in the human animal makes this "brain/behavioral disease"
> possible?"   My jumping-off-point is tribalism and the peer
> pressure/echo chamber of the mob, but I want more substance.  I would
> like to hear from the EP folk

The only thing I know of that tribalism contributes to people
believing strange things is that having an enemy ("them") lends
credence to malicious intent. This is actually quite justifiable in
EP terms. For when there *is* a malicious element in the 
environment, indeed it often is the cause of tribulation. (To
refer to an earlier thread, this is why having a co-worker 
zap you once a day with a rubber band behind the ear is
more threatening and dangerous than a headache.)

But I think that *rationality* is a stronger cause of what you
are calling a "brain/behavioral disease"!  Take something unlike
the 9-11 responsibility that we all here can agree on for an
example. What would cause people to endorse the notion
that the 1969 trip to Luna was a "moon hoax"? 

You will find if you talk to people who believe that it was a hoax
that they, just like Kennedy Assassination buffs, have long chains
of intricate reasoning that they use to bolster their view.  I have
two claims about this:

1. the long chains of reasoning were not the prior causes. Indeed,
    often it could be a conscious or unconscious suspicion that 
    certain pre-established enemies ( i.e. "the commies", "the 
    government", whoever) that probably were behind whatever-bad-
    it-was. And it could even be your tribalism that is contributing here.
2. without the left-hemisphere being able to pump out a lot of 
    rational sentences to back up the suspicion, doubt would creep
    in and calm the person down.

Therefore I submit that when people believe things that seem really
peculiar and stupid to you, the chances are good that (in many cases
at least) blame should rest on unbridled rationalization.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 04:18:31 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:18:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America in 10 Easy Steps
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com><1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

James writes


> The reaction which individuals have to statements like "911 was almost
> certainly an inside job," primarily reflects their personal worldview more
> than it reflects their rationality.  One's worldview will be different if
> their beliefs include examples of secret government wars, cover-ups, ops,
> etc.  Such a person might rationally view such a statement with less
> skepticism than someone who's worldview discounted such beliefs.  

That seems quite right to me.  But what do you think is behind their
having "such [aberrant] beliefs", if anything?  That is, what caused them
to have unusual beliefs and not you or me?  I'd like to know your
opinion.

> For example, if you grew up in an environment where the Police are looked
> upon with fear and suspicion, and your only personal experience with them
> includes being intimidated, roughed up, and degraded by them, then your
> worldview will result in less skepticism about statements like "the police
> framed O.J. Simpson" than someone from an opposite background.

Quite right.

> So, when someone makes a statement like "911 was almost certainly an inside
> job," we can probably speculate on their worldview with some accuracy.  This
> however, tells us nothing about the veracity of the statement.  Rather than
> condemning someone for making such a statement, IMHO we should either try to
> understand their worldview or ask them for the facts upon which they base
> their opinions.  Either answer will help broaden our understanding,
> regardless of the ultimate veracity of the statement.

Of course.  But we still want to know *how* they got their views. The ultimate
goal, of course, is that we might find a means of judging the likelihood that
our *own* views are bonkers.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 03:55:59 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:55:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler><7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com><1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes

> At 01:56 AM 10/4/2007, BillK wrote:
> 
>> [Sam Harris] is making the case that all religions
>> are not equal and the Muslim religion is much
>> more likely to produce jihadist murderers than other
>> religions.
>> So there is also a specific Muslim problem to deal with.
> 
> I would disagree with him there.  *All* religions can inspire 
> warriors to jump up and down and yell "kill, kill."  That's the 
> evolved *function* of religions and if one has drifted away from its 
> function, it can jolly well swim back as needed.  Remember the crusades!

One of the crucial and important questions that has been 
at the forefront of discussions about religion is the actual
amount of harm that can be laid at the feet of religion, or
very specifically in other words:

Just how much of the same harm would have occurred anyway?

The data is rather scant, unfortunately.  We do have samples
of cultures where the religion though present did not have the
usual trappings we are familiar with.  One example is the Mongol
nation during the first part of the second millenium, i.e. 1100 - 1500 AD.
Some of their massacres were indeed justified in the name of their
religion, which amounted to a worship of Tangri, The Deep Blue Sky.

But it seems quite clear, at least to me, that deeper evolutionary forces
were actually at work, and the so-called religious sentiments merely
a post-hoc rationalization.

Sooner or later in the steppes of eastern Asia---as actually happened
many times---one tribe will gain dominance over a few nearby tribes.
The martial skill and practice thus obtained made further conquests
relatively easy. So every so often, as especially indicated in the most
famous case (Genghis Khan), an empire is formed.  And when
it works, *anything* can be evolutionarily favored. The tremendous
carnage of the Mongol Empire it seems to me, would have occurred
religion or no. So religion in some of these cases clearly had nothing
to do with conduct by our standards today utterly cruel and destructive.

Yet we have other unmistakeable examples of the very workings
of abstract theology serving to accentuate all the worst that societies
are otherwise capable of, much in the way  that technology *enabled*
some modern nations to achieve greater harm than they would have
otherwise.  But we can see that technology *per se* is not the
actual causative agent.  Yet this isn't enough to let religion off
the hook.  I think that we just don't know the relative merits
of religion in the world pre-1800.  The Aztecs and Maya, for example,
justified their ritual torture and human sacrifice by appeal to religion.
But are we sure these activities would not have ensued anyway.

In reading Will Durant (for example, the earliest pages of "The
Reformation") a great deal can be said in favor of the effects of
religion in the pre-1800 era. Yet who can say whether the same
effects would not have arisen in the absence of religion?

I think we have to keep open minds and continue in our reading
to rack up the plusses and minuses, insofar as we can guess that
certain effects stem from religion alone.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 04:34:14 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:34:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP in 10 Easy Steps
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com><a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <01c101c807d2$40123200$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes


> At 03:30 PM 10/5/2007, Jeff Davis wrote:
> 
>> ...I've returned to the question "What in the human animal
>> makes this "brain/behavioral disease possible?"   My jumping-
>> off-point is tribalism and the peer pressure/echo chamber of
>> the mob, but I want more substance.  I would
>> like to hear from the EP folk
> 
> I guess I am the resident EP guy, though if there are others, please speak up.

Okay  :-)

> You are right about "tribalism and the peer pressure/echo chamber of 
> the mob" but you need to go back even further and think about the 
> genes that built humans with such traits.

Yes, I like Jeff's comment as well. We may speculate that (especially
with the web today) when one has a hunch it's all too easy to find
supporting evidence (and, alas, emotionally gratifying substantiation).
Though, to be fair to the web, in free countries for a long time
it's been possible to find literature that supports your views if you look
hard enough, support that seems to offer good explanations that fit
with your hunch.

Keith writes

> So you need rephrase such questions into how the trait you are 
> thinking about could have made a difference in the reproductive 
> success of our ancestors...
> Jumping to the conclusion that a bush  shaking was due to a bear 
> wasn't a bad idea when there were bears in the bushes.  That
> extended to hearing from someone else there was a bear in the
> cave or the next valley.

Yes! The rumors engage our rational facitities because they provide
what seem to be good explanations.  So the very technique of 
learning that is *so* useful in other situations, e.g., I myself don't
need to serve time in prison if I can learn what the situation is
from someone who has and profit thereby, or I don't need to touch
a hot stove if I hear my big brother yelp when he does, this useful
technique is naturally two-edged, and one simply can pick up a
lot of bad info if one is not discriminating and skeptical.

> Now if something like this is an evolved behavior trait in humans, it 
> isn't hard to see how vivid and memorable stories (memes) of bears 
> [class dangerous] could spread among people and how it would be hard 
> to correct them, especially when part of the meme is "don't trust the 
> authorities," and you don't have any personal way to see the bear has 
> left the cave.
> 
> Belief in these sorts of stories isn't likely to threaten your 
> survival or reproductive success even today.

Yes, but sometimes it's really very *helpful* to believe these stories.
As I said, one really needs to develop better and better abilities of
discrimination and skepticism, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

All I can say is that I hope that over a lifetime one gets better at 
making such discriminations, because I see no easy black and white
answers here.

Lee



From scerir at libero.it  Sat Oct  6 05:13:39 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 07:13:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Question on Vacuum fluctuations and Non-Zero Energy
	EmptySpace:
References: <f1d9c15f0709302040t513c3f6bt626eab315575232b@mail.gmail.com>
	<200709302314.46134.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701c807d7$a8c7d250$8e961f97@archimede>

'Vacuum Fluctuations Cannot Mimic 
a Cosmological Constant'

Robert D. Klauber
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/0707.2957

Abstract: When the vacuum fluctuation pressure 
is calculated directly from fundamental principles 
of quantum field theory, in the same manner as 
vacuum fluctuation energy density is commonly 
calculated, one finds it is not equal to the 
negative of the vacuum fluctuation energy density. 
Thus, vacuum fluctuations cannot manifest as 
a cosmological constant of any order.

---------------

'You can't have a bottle of
negative-pressure material 
sitting on your shelf.'
-BK


From jef at jefallbright.net  Fri Oct  5 20:51:26 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:51:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<200710051945.l95Jjckh012031@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710051351m29118ad8m8948e1bf0a1446c7@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> I propose a different way to look at this, one that might appeal to the
> mathematically minded among ExIers, which are many methinks.

<snip>

> Clearly if someone with whom you generally agree utters a comment, that
> often has influence on ones own thinking.  If they espouse memes which you
> consider silly, then the K goes way down and one is not greatly influenced
> by their comments.

For those who are interested, this relates closely to Aumann's
agreement theorem and the interactive epistemology associated with my
Arrow of Morality thinking.  Googling "interactive epistemology"
provides links to more formal literature.

- Jef


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct  6 05:09:07 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 22:09:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Hazen
...
> 
> 
> Here's an interesting paper focusing on the three WTC building
> collapses, from a physics perspective:
> 
> 
> http://journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCent
> erBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf
> 
> It was written by Dr. Steven E. Jones, formerly of Brigham Young
> University, and hosted on the BYU website when I first came across it.
> Since then, political controversity surrounding this subject has
> forced the author into early retirement.
> 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones
> 
> Jones is a devout Mormon, but try to look past that and judge his work
> on its merits.  I'd be interested to hear any reactions to the above
> paper.
> 
> > James Clement


The paper uses enthalpy of reaction of jet fuel in air to calculate a flame
temperature of about 650C, but this is an adiabatic flame temperature
assuming the reactants start at about room temperature.  The fire started at
that temperature of course, but as the fire continued, the reactants
continued to heat before igniting.  So if the reactants start hotter than
room temperature, the products end up at higher than 650C.  This alone is
all that is needed to explain the molten metal in the basement after
collapse, and also to explain why the buildings did not collapse immediately
but rather only after the fire had burned for some time.  

A similar effect was seen in the fire that caused the bridge collapse in
Oakland after a fuel truck crashed and ignited.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL

I expected that event to put an end to the truther movement, but they appear
to be making a comeback.  Perhaps they will theorize that the bridge was
rigged with explosives?

Recall that the ancients managed to make molten iron by alternating layers
of ore and charcoal, long before modern techniques using electric resistance
to heat the ore.  Clearly this is a hydrocarbon fire, but still it gets hot
enough to melt iron.  Perhaps we should ask Dr. Steven E. Jones (no
relation) if he believes the ancient ironsmiths used the thermite reaction.


spike







From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Oct  6 06:08:35 2007
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:08:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I am creating artificial life ...
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com><a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com><1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<01c101c807d2$40123200$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <000701c807df$565399c0$6401a8c0@brainiac>

... declares US gene pioneer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/oct/06/genetics.climatechange

Olga


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 06:56:29 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 23:56:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)
In-Reply-To: <01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler><7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com><1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>

I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The History
of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would be happy to
email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks, in the 4th Century
BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.

James Clement 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 07:29:01 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 00:29:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com><1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>

Lee Corbin writes


> That seems quite right to me.  But what do you think is behind their
> having "such [aberrant] beliefs", if anything?  That is, what caused them
> to have unusual beliefs and not you or me?  I'd like to know your
> opinion.


Check out Social Anthropology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_anthropology

A lot of people make what they believe are intelligent statements about the
thoughts and motivations of other people.  But, IMHO, if you want to learn
why other people think the way they do, you have to put yourself in their
position (if not literally, then at least figuratively).  That is, if you
cannot walk in their shoes, then at least read and listen to what they are
exposed to.  Your framework will never be identical (for one thing your
brain is imprinted differently by your environment), but it will help you
understand and empathize with their viewpoints.

I'm sure some individuals on this list can tell you that not every
"conspiracy theory" is a paranoid delusion - take the case of a Church
ganging up on an outsider and trying to have him imprisoned or murdered.  It
would be easy to scoff at such a story.  To the people who experience such,
their particular viewpoint is forever changed, and may now be "aberrant"
(i.e., departing from the "norm"), but that does not make it incorrect.

James Clement



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 13:42:38 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 06:42:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs (was Fascist America)
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com><1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

James writes

> Lee Corbin writes
> 
>> But what do you think is behind [some people]
>> having "such [aberrant] beliefs", if anything?  That is, what caused them
>> to have unusual beliefs and not you or me?
> 
> Check out Social Anthropology:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_anthropology

My brother is a cultural anthropologist and I've been exposed to that
point of view a long time. Indeed, the first criticism I had of libertarianism
(and I'm still at least half-libertarian) is that it entirely fails to take culture
into account. Reading most libertarian literature, you'd think that all of
humanity was white, middle-class American. Does much in libertarian
writing read as well if you keep Japanese people in mind as you read?

Yet the general theses of cultural anthropology have always been very
overblown in my view. There is a tendency there to equate all cultures
as having equally valid points of view, whereas in general primitive
cultures have (for example) an extremely limited scientific view of the
world, and views that they have that are in opposition to a scientific
understanding---, well, practically everyone I know rejects such views.
I certainly do.

Moreover, the progress of EP over the last 30 years further diminishes
the relevance (and plasibility), it seems to me, of the basic views
espoused by cultural anthropologists. There does seem to be a basic
*human nature*.  We all share a greater amount of behavior than was
appreciated 50 years ago.

> A lot of people make what they believe are intelligent statements about the
> thoughts and motivations of other people.  But, IMHO, if you want to learn
> why other people think the way they do, you have to put yourself in their
> position (if not literally, then at least figuratively).  That is, if you
> cannot walk in their shoes, then at least read and listen to what they are
> exposed to.

Well, that's certainly valuable advice. This does have to be checked out
before anything.  E.g., to take an extreme example, what *made* the
mass-murderer go on a rampage? What could cause me to climb a
tower and begin picking random people off with a rifle?  Who knows,
maybe if we listen to her story and try to understand her anger, we can
sympathize.  But the chances aren't good.

> I'm sure some individuals on this list can tell you that not every
> "conspiracy theory" is a paranoid delusion - take the case of a Church
> ganging up on an outsider and trying to have him imprisoned or murdered.  It
> would be easy to scoff at such a story.  To the people who experience such,
> their particular viewpoint is forever changed, and may now be "aberrant"
> (i.e., departing from the "norm"), but that does not make it incorrect.

That's for damned sure!  

Still, *after* we've checked out trying to see the situation from someone
else's viewpoint, trying to understand the environmental cues to which
he responded and the cultural influences to which he was exposed, there
are still many unexplained cases. In some cases, the people are just clearly
wired very differently.  

In other extreme cases, people who are otherwise entirely normal have
a pronounced tendency to believe almost every conspiracy theory they
hear (I'm certainly talking about no one on this list).  That's one thing
that needs accounting for.  Another is a single individual who is almost
always sensible from the majority's viewpoint, but has one or two
pet-peeves that seem incomprehensible. This latter case evades any
comprehensive explanation that I can offer.

Lee



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct  6 15:34:36 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:34:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Melted steel
In-Reply-To: <200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
	<200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>

At 10:09 PM 10/5/2007, Spike wrote:

snip

>The paper uses enthalpy of reaction of jet fuel in air to calculate a flame
>temperature of about 650C, but this is an adiabatic flame temperature
>assuming the reactants start at about room temperature.  The fire started at
>that temperature of course, but as the fire continued, the reactants
>continued to heat before igniting.  So if the reactants start hotter than
>room temperature, the products end up at higher than 650C.  This alone is
>all that is needed to explain the molten metal in the basement after
>collapse, and also to explain why the buildings did not collapse immediately
>but rather only after the fire had burned for some time.
>
>A similar effect was seen in the fire that caused the bridge collapse in
>Oakland after a fuel truck crashed and ignited.
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL
>
>I expected that event to put an end to the truther movement, but they appear
>to be making a comeback.  Perhaps they will theorize that the bridge was
>rigged with explosives?

It's clear from the pictures that there was little or no *melting* in 
this crash and fire.  Not that it mattered, the metal got hot enough 
it could no longer hold up its own weight and sagged.

>Recall that the ancients managed to make molten iron by alternating layers
>of ore and charcoal, long before modern techniques using electric resistance
>to heat the ore.  Clearly this is a hydrocarbon fire, but still it gets hot
>enough to melt iron.  Perhaps we should ask Dr. Steven E. Jones (no
>relation) if he believes the ancient ironsmiths used the thermite reaction.

It is certainly possible to melt iron with hydrocarbons, but it takes 
a rather special setup to do it, forced draft among them.

On the other hand the WTC could well have provided that from a 
chimney effect.  Jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts would 
result in forced air combustion that could have melted steel or at 
least got it to yellow heat.  That might have caused the interior 
steel to fail first.

It kind of amazes me that the buildings they are putting up look like 
they would be subject to the same kind of failure if the same thing 
happened to them.

Keith Henson 



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 16:12:33 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:12:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Melted steel
In-Reply-To: <1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>
References: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
	<200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710060912v7462e830h177a74f45d72fa98@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, hkhenson wrote:
> It's clear from the pictures that there was little or no *melting* in
> this crash and fire.  Not that it mattered, the metal got hot enough
> it could no longer hold up its own weight and sagged.
>
> It is certainly possible to melt iron with hydrocarbons, but it takes
> a rather special setup to do it, forced draft among them.
>
> On the other hand the WTC could well have provided that from a
> chimney effect.  Jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts would
> result in forced air combustion that could have melted steel or at
> least got it to yellow heat.  That might have caused the interior
> steel to fail first.
>
> It kind of amazes me that the buildings they are putting up look like
> they would be subject to the same kind of failure if the same thing
> happened to them.
>

The WTC was a special case. There was very little load-bearing steel
in the interior,  except  around the elevators. The outer walls
supported the weight of the building.
The WTC didn't use the 'old-fashioned' steel girders and concrete.

Quote:
The WTC used tubular steel bearing walls, fluted corrugated steel
flooring and bent bar steel truss floor supports.

Guess what? Tubular steel and corrugated steel weakens much faster
than solid steel girders when exposed to a very hot fire. Once one
floor gave way, the weight of all the floors above smashing down
exceeded the design limits of the floor below and the whole thing
collapsed.

See:  <http://vincentdunn.com/wtc.html>
and many others.


BillK


From jef at jefallbright.net  Sat Oct  6 16:36:40 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:36:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs (was Fascist America)
In-Reply-To: <01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> My brother is a cultural anthropologist and I've been exposed to that
> point of view a long time. Indeed, the first criticism I had of libertarianism
> (and I'm still at least half-libertarian) is that it entirely fails to take culture
> into account.

An astute observation, and one I didn't realize we share.  I thought
you claimed devout Libertarianism.

Further to your point, I'd say it's about blindness to the essential
structure supporting their individual efforts.  Much as an arrogant
software engineer, proud of his creations, might extrapolate to grand
visions of what he might achieve if not held back by the regressive
forces surrounding him, with little regard for the adaptations baked
in to the editors, compilers, OS, microcode, hardware, and the people
and institutions (and deeper) from which these grow.

On the other hand, which is worse, Libertarian fixation on maximizing
personal liberty or the liberal ideal of one agent: one equal vote?
Both lack the dimensionality necessary for success in the bigger
picture.


> Moreover, the progress of EP over the last 30 years further diminishes
> the relevance (and plasibility), it seems to me, of the basic views
> espoused by cultural anthropologists. There does seem to be a basic
> *human nature*.  We all share a greater amount of behavior than was
> appreciated 50 years ago.

Like a tree with roots firmly grounded in its interactions with a
consistent (but always only incompletely knowable) "physics", each of
the individual leaves can find a basis for pragmatic agreement at some
level.  Therein lies the seed of a pragmatic politics of private
choices and public consequences.


> > A lot of people make what they believe are intelligent statements about the
> > thoughts and motivations of other people.  But, IMHO, if you want to learn
> > why other people think the way they do, you have to put yourself in their
> > position (if not literally, then at least figuratively).  That is, if you
> > cannot walk in their shoes, then at least read and listen to what they are
> > exposed to.

The degenerate case exemplified by the all-to-common practice on these
discussion lists of one aiming to attack the points of another, all
the while being unable to effectively summarize the other's position.
True understanding entails encompassing, rather than undermining, the
understanding of another.


> Well, that's certainly valuable advice. This does have to be checked out
> before anything.  E.g., to take an extreme example, what *made* the
> mass-murderer go on a rampage? What could cause me to climb a
> tower and begin picking random people off with a rifle?  Who knows,
> maybe if we listen to her story and try to understand her anger, we can
> sympathize.  But the chances aren't good.
>
> > I'm sure some individuals on this list can tell you that not every
> > "conspiracy theory" is a paranoid delusion - take the case of a Church
> > ganging up on an outsider and trying to have him imprisoned or murdered.  It
> > would be easy to scoff at such a story.  To the people who experience such,
> > their particular viewpoint is forever changed, and may now be "aberrant"
> > (i.e., departing from the "norm"), but that does not make it incorrect.
>
> That's for damned sure!
>
> Still, *after* we've checked out trying to see the situation from someone
> else's viewpoint, trying to understand the environmental cues to which
> he responded and the cultural influences to which he was exposed, there
> are still many unexplained cases. In some cases, the people are just clearly
> wired very differently.

Each person's model of reality is entirely valid, to that person. Thus
the protracted debates where one party aims to shoot holes in
another's model, while being unable to effectively describe the
target.


> In other extreme cases, people who are otherwise entirely normal have
> a pronounced tendency to believe almost every conspiracy theory they
> hear (I'm certainly talking about no one on this list).  That's one thing
> that needs accounting for.

The same non-linear responses tuned in the environment of adaptation
are naturally susceptible to being pushed into auto-immune behavior,
whether in the body or the mind.


> Another is a single individual who is almost
> always sensible from the majority's viewpoint, but has one or two
> pet-peeves that seem incomprehensible. This latter case evades any
> comprehensive explanation that I can offer.

Like a child raised in an abusive home becoming a bully in turn?  Or
perhaps closer to home, one who has been bullied tending to view any
sharply pointed criticism as bullying?

- Jef


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Oct  6 13:58:23 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:58:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200710061358.l96DwOJa008866@ms-smtp-06.texas.rr.com>

At 01:56 AM 10/6/2007, James wrote:

>I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The History
>of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would be happy to
>email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks, in the 4th Century
>BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.

Yes James, please do send me a copy.  Thanks!


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct  6 17:50:20 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 10:50:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>


On Oct 3, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 10/3/07, Samantha  Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:45 PM, Michael M. Butler wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
>>>
>>> Ballocks. Makes it very hard to take the rest of what you write
>>> seriously, even though I do.
>>
>> It will take a lot more than your say-so to make the official story
>> hold water.
>
> Bottom line: the "inside" part of "inside job" may mean many things
> (what degree of active or passive involvement? at what level?), but
> the point is that the burden of proof is on those affirming the
> official version.
>

Already well done.  Google is your friend.   The burden of explanation  
is on everyone offering an explanation not just those who point out  
the obvious holes in the official explanation.  Those offering the  
official explanation have by no means produced a fully coherent and  
well-proven case.    So a bit of balance is in order.

> And while I doubt that any of those challenging it can claim to know
> "the truth, all the truth" about 9/11, I think that they have more
> than successfully shown that the official version is far from being
> proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
>

Yes.  Here is a small sampling of some of the official story things  
requiring much better explanation.

1) No steel framed buildings in history before this have ever fallen  
due to heat softening the infrastructure;
2) The buildings fell is free fall time which is inconsistent with  
pancake collapse theories;
3) 6 of the claimed terrorists are very much alive and were not  
anywhere near these events;
4) normal hijacking handling policy on the militaries part was totally  
suspended on that day which requires complicity from the top;
5) The Pentagon is designed to withstand most non-nuclear attacks  
including heavy anti-aircraft batteries that will fire on any non  
military-id craft aggressively approaching it.   Yet well after we  
knew we were under attack it was allowed to be hit by a hijacked  
craft.  This also required a stand down order;
6)  Building 7 was on the air admitted to being "pulled" which means  
it must have been rigged with explosives well beforehand.

A question:

If you knew beyond reasonable doubt that your government set-up 911 to  
stampede the country in the direction they wanted, what would you do  
differently?   How would you look at current events and and the "war  
or terror"?



- samantha



From adolfoaz at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 17:56:31 2007
From: adolfoaz at gmail.com (Adolfo De Unanue)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:56:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)
In-Reply-To: <200710061358.l96DwOJa008866@ms-smtp-06.texas.rr.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<200710061358.l96DwOJa008866@ms-smtp-06.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20071006125631.00fad9e9@avatar>

Hi James!

I want a copy too! Please...
Thanks in advance !

Adolfo

El Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:58:23 -0500
Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> escribi?:

> At 01:56 AM 10/6/2007, James wrote:
> 
> >I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The
> >History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would
> >be happy to email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks,
> >in the 4th Century BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.
> 
> Yes James, please do send me a copy.  Thanks!
> 
> 
> <http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
> PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
> Computing, Communications and Electronics,
> University of Plymouth, UK
> <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
> <http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future
> 
> If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
> circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
> is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
> an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
> 
> 


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 18:02:47 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:02:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs (was Fascist America)
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710061102k1fbc44fbx3973238ba399ee82@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
> The degenerate case exemplified by the all-to-common practice on these
> discussion lists of one aiming to attack the points of another, all
> the while being unable to effectively summarize the other's position.
> True understanding entails encompassing, rather than undermining, the
> understanding of another.

This is an important point to highlight.

Understanding someone else is much more difficult than restating your own point.

Great observation Jef.


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct  6 19:03:10 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:03:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>


On Oct 2, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:

> On 10/1/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
>
> I must agree with Michael Butler, that, depending on what you mean by
> it, this assertion could seriously diminish your credibility on this
> matter.   Could you elaborate?

Here is where the evidence points to the best of my efforts to  
understand it.

The highest levels of government knew of and participated in the  
staging of this attack.  They also participated in stonewalling a full  
investigation for three years and then doing a tame investigation that  
avoided many issues and questions that are critical.   When I say  
highest level I mean all the way up to at least Cheney and very likely  
Bush.

I cannot do the case justice in this or any email list.  I would  
recommend the books, video, and online materials from David Griffin as  
a good source referencing many others for those interested.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/index.html

The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions (book)

The New Pearl Harbor (book)

September Eleventh: Should the truth be revealed or concealed? (video)

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct  6 19:04:52 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:04:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <13DCBA39-A43D-449F-A2EA-1E1AD238F13C@mac.com>


On Oct 4, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> At 02:04 PM 10/2/2007 -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
>
>> Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job, seriously inside.
>>
>> I must agree with Michael Butler, that, depending on what you mean by
>> it, this assertion could seriously diminish your credibility
>
> Has instantly done so.

Not except to those who have not bothered to consider the  
reasonableness of the official story.  I am not a fool and I do not  
make such statements lightly.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct  6 19:24:13 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:24:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks  (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <A5CFEEAC-9724-4328-B4AC-276DBBB0FAFD@mac.com>


On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:21 AM, John K Clark wrote:

> "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com> Wrote:
>
>> 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job,
>> seriously inside.
>
> I won't say that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but I do  
> believe the
> above deserves to be somewhere on the top ten list of the stupidest
> remarks ever made on the Extropian List. At least the UFO, ESP,
> Big Foot, and Cold Fusion people's ideas were not vicious.
>

Actually it is the saddest and one of the most difficult to accept  
conclusions I have ever come to.  But if by "stupid" you mean  
obviously false or silly or frivolous you are very much wrong.  If by  
"stupid" you mean that the conclusion can not be boldly stated without  
seriously weakening the point then I obviously disagree.  I believe  
the case that we have been lied to and that the greatest treason was  
committed against the American people is quite strong and that it is  
past time to shake people out of their complacency.

- samantha




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct  6 19:36:14 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:36:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion ?
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1191699301_13062@S4.cableone.net>

At 11:56 PM 10/5/2007, James Clement wrote:
>I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The History
>of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would be happy to
>email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks, in the 4th Century
>BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.

While there has certainly been memetic competition between memes or 
meme sets of science and religion, I don't think a case can be made 
for "damage" as in war damage.  The point of the EP model I presented 
was that the spread of xenophobic memes is a step on the path to war, 
but not causal, just a consequence of the way human psychological 
traits were wired up by evolution.

BTW, the model is either so obvious that people won't comment about 
it or so hard to understand that they won't.  I can't tell which from 
near zero responses.

Keith




From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct  6 19:49:19 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 12:49:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Melted steel
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710060912v7462e830h177a74f45d72fa98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
	<200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710060912v7462e830h177a74f45d72fa98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FA97A98-2608-4EDA-BA56-7A17E5465435@mac.com>


On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:12 AM, BillK wrote:

> On 10/6/07, hkhenson wrote:
>> It's clear from the pictures that there was little or no *melting* in
>> this crash and fire.  Not that it mattered, the metal got hot enough
>> it could no longer hold up its own weight and sagged.
>>
>> It is certainly possible to melt iron with hydrocarbons, but it takes
>> a rather special setup to do it, forced draft among them.
>>
>> On the other hand the WTC could well have provided that from a
>> chimney effect.  Jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts would
>> result in forced air combustion that could have melted steel or at
>> least got it to yellow heat.  That might have caused the interior
>> steel to fail first.
>>
>> It kind of amazes me that the buildings they are putting up look like
>> they would be subject to the same kind of failure if the same thing
>> happened to them.
>>
>
> The WTC was a special case. There was very little load-bearing steel
> in the interior,  except  around the elevators. The outer walls
> supported the weight of the building.
> The WTC didn't use the 'old-fashioned' steel girders and concrete.

I have heard that it was part of the known design of WTC that it had  
massive central support structure.     I am attempting to find pre-911  
details of WTC construction as I don't automatically trust claims on  
either side afterwards about those details.  They should be somewhere  
on the web.  I am looking for clean architectural and engineering  
documents preferably.

- samantha





From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sat Oct  6 20:03:00 2007
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:03:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fw:  Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)
Message-ID: <001001c80853$e6173ed0$6401a8c0@brainiac>

Me, too, James ... please and thanks!

Olga
fauxever at sprynet.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adolfo De Unanue" <adolfoaz at gmail.com>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion (was Fwd: New Article)


> Hi James!
>
> I want a copy too! Please...
> Thanks in advance !
>
> Adolfo
>
> El Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:58:23 -0500
> Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> escribi?:
>
>> At 01:56 AM 10/6/2007, James wrote:
>>
>> >I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The
>> >History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would
>> >be happy to email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks,
>> >in the 4th Century BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.
>>
>> Yes James, please do send me a copy.  Thanks!
>>
>>
>> <http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
>> PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of
>> Computing, Communications and Electronics,
>> University of Plymouth, UK
>> <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
>> <http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future
>>
>> If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the
>> circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what
>> is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is
>> an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  6 21:09:31 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:09:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion ?
In-Reply-To: <1191699301_13062@S4.cableone.net>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<1191699301_13062@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <62c14240710061409w6d746eer359db1da03f7dca3@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> BTW, the model is either so obvious that people won't comment about
> it or so hard to understand that they won't.  I can't tell which from
> near zero responses.

It could also be that people don't like to think of themselves as
bound by primitive desires over which they have little control even
when they're aware.  I admit that EP makes a great deal of sense, even
if I don't like the conclusions I'm forced to by it.


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 21:24:44 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:24:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
Message-ID: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Several people, notably Natasha and PJ Manney, are using
the term in a way that I don't understand.  The latter, in fact,
wrote on September 27

    "But remember this: even fascists believe they're doing the right
    thing.  They balance what they and the country gain by their actions
    against what they and the country might lose if they refrained.
    Hence, their behavior."

I would like to know who or what is being described. Yes I do
understand that the main target of these remarks, perhaps quite
justifiably but perhaps not, is the Bush administration. But what
exactly is the meaning of "fascism" here?

(No doubt the above was not meant to be defining. If "fascist"
were to mean that the *only* considerations the leaders of a 
country make are whether or not actions benefit/harm their
nation, then no country in modern history is fascist, because
there are *always* other considerations, e.g., pilfering. But
I do understand that the above may be a step towards such
a definition.)

The answers to even a few of the following "yes and no" type
questions will help a lot.

1. Is Russia at the present time a fascist country?

2. Are there countries of Western Europe that are fascist
    at the present time?

3. Is Mexico or Cuba fascist at the present time?  I ask because
    both the Federalis and Castro's henchmen appear to violate
    people's liberties almost at will.

4. If two countries have identical profiles of freedom and economic
    structure, but one is an ally of the United States and one is an 
    enemy, is the former thereby more fascist?

5. Can a country be a little bit fascist?  That is, if there has been
    a single incident of government action that has resulted in a 
    clearly unjustifiable loss of liberty (e.g. Norway), is the country
    thereby fascist?  Or is it a matter of degree?  

6. Do the civil liberties of a substantial number of people actually
    have to be infringed, or is it enough that the laws (or known
    potential) provide the possibility for such? 

7. During what decade did the United States become fascist? Was
    the U.S. fascist during the McCarthy years?  What about during
    the sixties when the FBI spyed on prominent members of the
    Civil Rights movement?

8. What other terms of approbation are used which are not employed
    by anyone to self-describe them?  That is, I consider it a great blow
    against any political term if no one can be found who embraces that
    term. If everyone says, "I'm not a fascist", then the meaning of the
    term is made much, much more difficult. Why use a term that no
    one employs self-descriptively?

Thanks,
Lee



From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Sat Oct  6 21:28:57 2007
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:28:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
Message-ID: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net>


Extropians,

My entire life, I've always enjoyed the lemmings all jumping off a cliff 
type ideas in our culture.

The most recent great example I've seen is Wendy's new advertisement 
which can bee seen here:

http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story=aa6b272e936328725aefe9438047471199722917

My feeling that everyone is jumping in the grave, when something so much 
more could be done, is surely the reason for enjoying all these so much.

How many of you have real problems going to the funerals of loved ones, 
where they bury people to rot in the grave, while having these types of 
images going through your head?  I always wish I could just screeeem!

Have any of you ever considered the idea of doing something like wearing 
a black suit, along with a bright pink braided hair set like this guy in 
this commercial, to a funeral, like I have?

Wouldn't it be great if there was some well recognized, something like 
this, we could all do in such cases?  Maybe even something a bit less 
loud than pink hair braids, but still recognizable?  Or must we continue 
to just watch all this insanity in silence?

Anyway, funerals are always hard for me.  How many of you have the same 
problem?  And how many of you try to think of schemes that might be a 
little more socially acceptable than running around screaming and 
slapping everyone at a funeral trying to shake them out of their 
primitive insanity?

Brent Allsop






From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 21:47:16 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:47:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jef writes (I'm back to reading his posts, just not having a very good
ability to hold a grudge)


> On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
>> My brother is a cultural anthropologist and I've been exposed to that
>> point of view a long time. Indeed, the first criticism I had of libertarianism
>> (and I'm still at least half-libertarian) is that it entirely fails to take culture
>> into account.
> 
> An astute observation, and one I didn't realize we share.  I thought
> you claimed devout Libertarianism.

Please.  Our discussions should not be about me.

> Further to your point, I'd say it's about blindness to the essential
> structure supporting their individual efforts.  Much as an arrogant
> software engineer, proud of his creations, might extrapolate to grand
> visions of what he might achieve...

Sorry, but you lost me with the first sentence. Whose individual efforts?

> if not held back by the regressive
> forces surrounding him, with little regard for the adaptations baked
> in to the editors, compilers, OS, microcode, hardware, and the people
> and institutions (and deeper) from which these grow.

I think that you're saying something like "there can be too much
theory with too little adaptation to realities"?

> On the other hand, which is worse, Libertarian fixation on maximizing
> personal liberty or the liberal ideal of one agent: one equal vote?
> Both lack the dimensionality necessary for success in the bigger
> picture.

I agree that both normally laudable principles are dangerous
when carried to extremes. Yes, without principles we'd be
entirely lost, but just as you say we should always be careful
about their "low dimensionality".

>> Moreover, the progress of EP over the last 30 years further diminishes
>> the relevance (and plasibility), it seems to me, of the basic views
>> espoused by cultural anthropologists. There does seem to be a basic
>> *human nature*.  We all share a greater amount of behavior than was
>> appreciated 50 years ago.
> 
> Like a tree with roots firmly grounded in its interactions with a
> consistent (but always only incompletely knowable) "physics", each of
> the individual leaves can find a basis for pragmatic agreement at some
> level.  Therein lies the seed of a pragmatic politics of private
> choices and public consequences.

Sorry!  I have a feeling that I agree with that, but it's a little too abstract.
That is, after re-reading a couple of times, I just don't want to speculate
on exactly what is meant.  In fact, this seems to me to be an example
of what we are talking about:  unless such description is tied more closely
to actual circumstances, its "dimensionality" may be too large or too small.
Besides, it seems to blow communication all to hell.

Rather than complaining, I probably ought to just remain silent. Sorry.

>> > A lot of people make what they believe are intelligent statements about the
>> > thoughts and motivations of other people.  But, IMHO, if you want to learn
>> > why other people think the way they do, you have to put yourself in their
>> > position (if not literally, then at least figuratively).  That is, if you
>> > cannot walk in their shoes, then at least read and listen to what they are
>> > exposed to.
> 
> The degenerate case exemplified by the all-to-common practice on these
> discussion lists of one aiming to attack the points of another, all
> the while being unable to effectively summarize the other's position.
> True understanding entails encompassing, rather than undermining, the
> understanding of another.

An admirable bit of Rogerian psychology.  Indeed, if I knew that I
was indeed incapable of effectively expressing someone else's position,
it would give me grave concern.  You're probably right that all too
often we just *think* that we could make the same points. But it's
an expensive exercise to check some original prose you have written
to see if it passes criticism from the person whose views you are trying
to successfully articulate. 

>> Another is a single individual who is almost
>> always sensible from the majority's viewpoint, but has one or two
>> pet-peeves that seem incomprehensible. This latter case evades any
>> comprehensive explanation that I can offer.
> 
> Like a child raised in an abusive home becoming a bully in turn?  Or
> perhaps closer to home, one who has been bullied tending to view any
> sharply pointed criticism as bullying?

Are you into discussing your favorite subject, i.e. me, again?
I'll not waste my time with that.

But I do sincerely thank you for your substantive comments, a few
of which were both productive and illuminating.  I am not being
sarcastic.

Lee



From dmasten at piratelabs.org  Sat Oct  6 21:25:48 2007
From: dmasten at piratelabs.org (David Masten)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 14:25:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>

On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 10:50 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Yes.  Here is a small sampling of some of the official story things  
> requiring much better explanation.

Actually they don't require better explanation, but better understanding
of thermal dynamics and structural design is required of the Truthers.

> 1) No steel framed buildings in history before this have ever fallen  
> due to heat softening the infrastructure;

And how many modern high-rise structures have been struck by modern wide
body airliners? Or putting it another way - how many buildings with
modern elevator shafts and modern HVAC systems have had thousands of
gallons of kerosene burning inside them?

> 2) The buildings fell is free fall time which is inconsistent with  
> pancake collapse theories;

What is "free fall" time? Please show accelerations and terminal
velocity, please. Also please show the assumptions for determining
coefficient of drag of debris. 

Despite that, typical demolitions practice for tall buildings is to cut
the structure at key points and allow the upper stories to bring down
the stories below it, i.e. the collapse should be nearly identical
whether it was a demolition job or weakening from a kerosene fire. 

> 3) 6 of the claimed terrorists are very much alive and were not  
> anywhere near these events;

What does this have to do with the building collapse? My understanding
was that the six were found to not be involved, but were "persons of
interest" for other reasons.

> 4) normal hijacking handling policy on the militaries part was totally  
> suspended on that day which requires complicity from the top;

When did the aircraft involved start squawking the hijack signal on the
transponders? I'll give you the answer - they didn't. No one realized
that there were 4 hijackings until it was too late for the first three.
Then there is the problem of what exactly is the military's hijack
procedure? The standard law enforcement procedure prior to 9/11 was to
do nothing to upset the hijackers, which would imply little for the
military to do. 

> 5) The Pentagon is designed to withstand most non-nuclear attacks  
> including heavy anti-aircraft batteries that will fire on any non  
> military-id craft aggressively approaching it.   Yet well after we  
> knew we were under attack it was allowed to be hit by a hijacked  
> craft.  This also required a stand down order;

This is a truly extraordinary claim. Buildings "designed to withstand
attacks" are not invincible, but rather allow the occupants a defensible
position with reduced (not zero) casualties from an attack. The damage
seen from the airliner is perfectly consistent with this. Also, what AAA
unit(s) was assigned to the Pentagon? IIRC, there have not been AAA
batteries at the pentagon for decades. The only defense at the Pentagon
was a security scheme to prevent unauthorized personnel from wandering
around inside.

Incompetence and surprise explains 4 and 5 far better than malice.

> 6)  Building 7 was on the air admitted to being "pulled" which means  
> it must have been rigged with explosives well beforehand.

Cite? I suspect being "pulled" referred to ordering firefighters out of
the building.

> A question:
> 
> If you knew beyond reasonable doubt that your government set-up 911 to  
> stampede the country in the direction they wanted, what would you do  
> differently?   How would you look at current events and and the "war  
> or terror"?

Mu.

Dave



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Sat Oct  6 21:53:41 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:53:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion ?
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler><7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com><1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net><ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com><1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net><01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<1191699301_13062@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <021001c80863$ed9e05c0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes

> At 11:56 PM 10/5/2007, James Clement wrote:
> 
>>I have a pdf version of William Draper's excellent 1874 book; "The History
>>of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," which I would be happy to
>>email to anyone interested.  It starts with the Greeks, in the 4th Century
>>BCE, and progress through the 19th Century.
> 
> While there has certainly been memetic competition between memes or 
> meme sets of science and religion, I don't think a case can be made 
> for "damage" as in war damage.

That seems right to me.

> The point of the EP model I presented was that the spread of xenophobic
> memes is a step on the path to war, but not causal, just a consequence of
> the way human psychological traits were wired up by evolution.

You are now saying that the spread of xenophobic memes is not 
causal, i.e., does not cause war?  That it is just a symptom or
signature?  If that's what you are saying, then yes, I did miss that
(but then, I probably have not attended your writings as much as
I could have, due to time constraints).

I would have sworn that you saw a causal step in the spread of such
memes.

> BTW, the model is either so obvious that people won't comment about 
> it or so hard to understand that they won't.  I can't tell which from 
> near zero responses.

Alas, these days on this list one can never tell anything from zero
responses. All of the above is in part explained by the difficulties
of having to cope with too much information.

Lee



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Oct  6 22:08:26 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:08:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <200710062208.l96M8SFO021492@ms-smtp-06.texas.rr.com>

At 04:24 PM 10/6/2007, Lee wrote:

>Several people, notably Natasha and PJ Manney, are using
>the term in a way that I don't understand.  The latter, in fact,
>wrote on September 27

What?  I said fascism comes in many shapes and sizes and is ugly.  I 
used the term ugly because I had been reflecting on the concept of 
beauty as used in the authors early writing and in regards to behavior.

Natasha

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From sentience at pobox.com  Sat Oct  6 22:09:37 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:09:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
In-Reply-To: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net>
References: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <470807A1.7090307@pobox.com>

Brent Allsop wrote:
> 
> Anyway, funerals are always hard for me.  How many of you have the same 
> problem?

Yo.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:25:58 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:25:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
In-Reply-To: <470807A1.7090307@pobox.com>
References: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net> <470807A1.7090307@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV1554675E0DBDD7F9364B36A3AA0@phx.gbl>


Brent Allsop wrote:
> 
> Anyway, funerals are always hard for me.  How many of you have the same 
> problem?


Yes, I always feel bad that the individual didn't sign up for cryonics!  I
then think "sometime in the near future children will screw up their faces
and ask their parents about the old times when people actually 'died' and
never came back."

James




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 22:33:39 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:33:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071006173040.021f6bd8@satx.rr.com>

At 02:24 PM 10/6/2007 -0700, Lee wrote:

>Several people, notably Natasha and PJ Manney, are using
>the term in a way that I don't understand.  The latter, in fact,
>wrote on September 27

Go back to the original essay url'd by Emlyn on September 27:

<Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
Naomi Wolf

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51150/?page=entire

Last autumn, there was a military coup in Thailand. The leaders of the
coup took a number of steps, rather systematically, as if they had a
shopping list. In a sense, they did. Within a matter of days,
democracy had been closed down -- the coup leaders declared martial
law, sent armed soldiers into residential areas, took over radio and
TV stations, issued restrictions on the press, tightened some limits
on travel and took certain activists into custody.

They were not figuring these things out as they went along. If you
look at history, you can see that there is essentially a blueprint for
turning an open society into a dictatorship. That blueprint has been
used again and again in more and less bloody, more and less terrifying
ways. But it is always effective. It is very difficult and arduous to
create and sustain a democracy, but history shows that closing one
down is much simpler. You simply have to be willing to take the 10
steps.>







From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Oct  6 22:43:59 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:43:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Melted steel
In-Reply-To: <8FA97A98-2608-4EDA-BA56-7A17E5465435@mac.com>
References: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
	<200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710060912v7462e830h177a74f45d72fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FA97A98-2608-4EDA-BA56-7A17E5465435@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071006174253.022adae8@satx.rr.com>


> > The WTC was a special case. There was very little load-bearing steel
> > in the interior,  except  around the elevators. The outer walls
> > supported the weight of the building.
> > The WTC didn't use the 'old-fashioned' steel girders and concrete.
>
>I have heard that it was part of the known design of WTC that it had
>massive central support structure.     I am attempting to find pre-911
>details of WTC construction as I don't automatically trust claims on
>either side afterwards about those details.  They should be somewhere
>on the web.  I am looking for clean architectural and engineering
>documents preferably.
>
>- samantha

Here's the Real Secret Explanation:

http://www.superdickery.com/dick/178.html




From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:46:31 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:46:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV1399BAC4DADE1B067F5ECBA3AA0@phx.gbl>

On a related note - I'd like to recommend two books which, IMHO, help
explain why and what some followers of "authoritarian conservatism" will do:

John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience."
http://www.amazon.com/Conservatives-Without-Conscience-John-Dean/dp/06700377
45/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-7291230-7455224

and 

George Crile's "Charlie Wilson's War."
http://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Wilsons-War-Extraordinary-Congress/dp/08021412
42/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7291230-7455224?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191710260&sr=1-1

There seem to be plenty of fascists in America, who would not blink at
taking U.S. citizens out into international waters and torturing them,
blowing up buildings, or anything else their superiors "suggested" was in
the best interests of the Country...

If anyone has suggestions for other books which are related, please let me
know.

James Clement 





From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Oct  7 00:00:52 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:00:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Melted steel
In-Reply-To: <8FA97A98-2608-4EDA-BA56-7A17E5465435@mac.com>
References: <20071006032827.GK1016@vt11.net>
	<200710060535.l965ZqL5012910@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<1191684803_6315@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710060912v7462e830h177a74f45d72fa98@mail.gmail.com>
	<8FA97A98-2608-4EDA-BA56-7A17E5465435@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20071007000052.GM1016@vt11.net>

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:49:19PM -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 
> On Oct 6, 2007, at 9:12 AM, BillK wrote:
> > The WTC was a special case. There was very little load-bearing steel
> > in the interior,  except  around the elevators. The outer walls
> > supported the weight of the building.
> > The WTC didn't use the 'old-fashioned' steel girders and concrete.
> 
> I have heard that it was part of the known design of WTC that it had  
> massive central support structure.     I am attempting to find pre-911  
> details of WTC construction as I don't automatically trust claims on  
> either side afterwards about those details.  They should be somewhere  
> on the web.  I am looking for clean architectural and engineering  
> documents preferably.
> 
> - samantha


Scanned copies of the original WTC1 (North Tower) blueprints were
leaked earlier this year, and posted to several web sites, one of
which converted the raw .TIFF files for easier online viewing:

 http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

Image quality of these scans isn't the best, and even at 4896x3632
("Original" resolution) some of the text and fine details are hard to
make out, especially on a small monitor.  Printing them might help.

On 9/11, the damage to this tower from the plane impact (AA 11)
affected floors 92 through 98.

Some interesting construction details:

 - Core box columns are very thick near the bottom, gradually tapering
   towards the top; same with the perimeter columns, which are deeper
   (but not wider) on the low floors.

   I've read that the WTC design called for core columns to support
   60% of the static gravity load, with perimeter coluns handling 40%
   of gravity and 100% of lateral loads (side-to-side swaying from
   wind).


 - Only one (freight) elevator shaft is contiguous through the entire
   height of building.  Apart from that, Express Elevators linked the
   bottom level to two "sky lobbies" on the 44th and 78th floors
   (these went no higher than the 78th), where passengers would switch
   to a local elevator to reach their final floor.  There were heavy
   mechanical floors above each express elevator as well... this
   division of each tower into thirds is visible in some exterior
   photographs also.


 - Within each of the stacked 1/3rd-tower segments, some local
   elevator shafts served only the lower floors, allowing for more
   open floor space on upper levels.

   See also

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_Trade_Center_Building_Design_with_Floor_and_Elevator_Arrangment.svg

   although that image appears to mis-label the single freight
   elevator as an express elevator.

 - Not all core columns were adjacent to elevator shafts, although
   most were, and these extended all the way up even where nearby
   elevator shafts did not.


-- 
Jordan.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Oct  6 22:22:34 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:22:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
In-Reply-To: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net>
References: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200710062222.l96MMawo028329@ms-smtp-05.texas.rr.com>

At 04:28 PM 10/6/2007, Brent wrote:


>My entire life, I've always enjoyed the lemmings all jumping off a cliff
>type ideas in our culture.

The masses following popular behavior toward fatal consequences?!

>The most recent great example I've seen is Wendy's new advertisement
>which can bee seen here:
>
>http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story=aa6b272e936328725aefe9438047471199722917
>
>My feeling that everyone is jumping in the grave, when something so much
>more could be done, is surely the reason for enjoying all these so much.

Okay, this I agree with.  When I saw the ad for 
the firs time, I though they were imitating the 
red braids of Pippi Longstocking or Pippi 
L?ngstrump (Lindgren 1945).  But when I realized 
they were jumping into their graves I felt v. uncomfortable.

>How many of you have real problems going to the funerals of loved ones,
>where they bury people to rot in the grave, while having these types of
>images going through your head?  I always wish I could just screeeem! ...
>Anyway, funerals are always hard for me.  How many of you have the same
>problem?

Yes I do.  Very difficult.

Natasha

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From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Oct  7 00:54:01 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:54:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
Message-ID: <20071007005401.GN1016@vt11.net>

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 02:25:48PM -0700, David Masten wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 10:50 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> > Yes.  Here is a small sampling of some of the official story things  
> > requiring much better explanation.
> 
> Actually they don't require better explanation, but better understanding
> of thermal dynamics and structural design is required of the Truthers.
> 
> > 1) No steel framed buildings in history before this have ever fallen  
> > due to heat softening the infrastructure;

Some have partially collapsed, though nothing so complete or sudden as
at WTC.  The Windsor Tower fire in Madrid is often brought up for
comparison:

 http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/default.htm

That was a smaller building, but the fire was more widespread,
eventually engulfing all of it.

After three hours ablaze, parts of the upper facade started falling
off.

After another two hours, Windsor's upper floors started to collapse. 

That collapse left the building's core intact, though, and stopped at
the first reinforced "technical floor" (itself surrounded by fire)
whereas the WTC's much more rapid collapse front didn't even slow down
when passing through intact, reinforced floors at the 78th and 45th
storeys.


> And how many modern high-rise structures have been struck by modern wide
> body airliners? Or putting it another way - how many buildings with
> modern elevator shafts and modern HVAC systems have had thousands of
> gallons of kerosene burning inside them?

WTC's HVAC included a damper system, to help slow the spread of fire
between floors, and its two-tiered express elevator / local elevator
system limited the number of floors served by each elevator shaft. 

Only one freight elevator served all of the floors directly.

In WTC 1, other shafts present on the plane impact floors descended
only to the 77th level sky-lobby.

 
> > 2) The buildings fell is free fall time which is inconsistent with  
> > pancake collapse theories;

A little slower than free-fall, actually.  Compare the fall times of
steel beams ejected horizontally for each building to the advancing
collapse wave, which moves a bit slower (still at a tremendous speed,
which remains constant even when traversing the heavily-reinforced
mechanical floors).

> What is "free fall" time? Please show accelerations and terminal
> velocity, please. Also please show the assumptions for determining
> coefficient of drag of debris. 

Those making this argument usually start with a "free fall in vacuum"
figure, e.g.

 1355 ft = 1/2 (32 ft/s^2) t^2

 9.2 sec = t

Oversimplified as it is, this is still a conservative lower bound,
since the neglected air resistance would act only to increase the
free-fall time, never to decrease it.

In comparison, the observed collapse time was between 12 and 15
seconds.  The huge volumes of pulverized material enveloping each
tower's base towards the end make it it difficult to pinpoint an exact
time.

 
> Despite that, typical demolitions practice for tall buildings is to cut
> the structure at key points and allow the upper stories to bring down
> the stories below it, i.e. the collapse should be nearly identical
> whether it was a demolition job or weakening from a kerosene fire. 

But achieving a straight-down, symmetrical collapse (implosion)
requires precise control over the timing at which individual supports
are cut.

Demolition companies would never attempt to bring a building down by
setting fires.  Even at temperatures high enough to assure complete
column failure, the sequencing would just be too unpredictable, likely
causing the building to topple over onto an adjacent structure.

Conventional demolitions are also done bottom-up (like WTC 7);
top-down would be much harder.

-- 
Jordan.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Oct  7 03:03:20 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:03:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Damage Due to Religion ?
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710061409w6d746eer359db1da03f7dca3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<01af01c807cd$55bbcbc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV1664FEBA9713A759E9F65CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<1191699301_13062@S4.cableone.net>
	<62c14240710061409w6d746eer359db1da03f7dca3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191726128_9590@S1.cableone.net>

At 02:09 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
>On 10/6/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> > BTW, the model is either so obvious that people won't comment about
> > it or so hard to understand that they won't.  I can't tell which from
> > near zero responses.
>
>It could also be that people don't like to think of themselves as
>bound by primitive desires over which they have little control even
>when they're aware.  I admit that EP makes a great deal of sense, even
>if I don't like the conclusions I'm forced to by it.

I don't often like the conclusion either.  But if you don't 
understand your "primitive desires" you are going to be far more 
"bound" to them than if you don't.

The EP/memes/war connection explains a lot, for example why Europe 
has not had a major war in the last 60 years and why the IRA went out 
of business.  It tells you what won't work and what probably would 
work with the current Islamic mess.

Keith 



From jef at jefallbright.net  Sun Oct  7 06:45:01 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 23:45:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs
In-Reply-To: <020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
	<020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Jef writes (I'm back to reading his posts, just not having a very good
> ability to hold a grudge)

And I'm reminded again of the slightly bizarre flavor of our
interactions.   Difficult to pin down precisely due to the nature of
the medium, but typically and distinctly off.


> > On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> >
> >> My brother is a cultural anthropologist and I've been exposed to that
> >> point of view a long time. Indeed, the first criticism I had of libertarianism
> >> (and I'm still at least half-libertarian) is that it entirely fails to take culture
> >> into account.
> >
> > An astute observation, and one I didn't realize we share.  I thought
> > you claimed devout Libertarianism.
>
> Please.  Our discussions should not be about me.

I expressed some surprise and interest in your apparently changing
Libertarian beliefs, and I think you broached the topic. My interest
in the evolution of political processes and beliefs has been ongoing
for years and has nothing to do with you personally.


> > Further to your point, I'd say it's about blindness to the essential
> > structure supporting their individual efforts.  Much as an arrogant
> > software engineer, proud of his creations, might extrapolate to grand
> > visions of what he might achieve if not held back by the regressive
> > forces surrounding him, with little regard for the adaptations baked
> > in to the editors, compilers, OS, microcode, hardware, and the people
> > and institutions (and deeper) from which these grow.

> Sorry, but you lost me with the first sentence. Whose individual efforts?

Further to your preceding point that Libertarianism "entirely fails to
take culture into account", the efforts of those who might act
according to that caricature of Libertarianism.


> I think that you're saying something like "there can be too much
> theory with too little adaptation to realities"?

I don't think that's implied by what I wrote.

I described a fairly common example of na?ve lack of accounting, not
just for surrounding culture [your claim], but for a complex, dynamic,
social-technological structure constructed via eons of adaptation.
The proud but na?ve programmer in the example sees his lines of code
as constituting the value of his product, and in an everyday sense
where we don't need to consider the infrastructure, like we don't need
to consider the air we breathe, that's quite adequate.  But such
thinking, all-to-common, is ineffective when applied to the challenges
of the larger system, e.g. what it would take to grow social
decision-making beyond the present politics of scarcity.

That pure radiant ideal of maximizing personal freedom in "politics"
is akin to the elegant and ineffective ideal of Solomonoff induction
in machine intelligence.  Each is like a hair on a pimple on the hiney
of a much higher-dimensional beast, and the nature of that beast,
however arbitrary, imposes computationally irreducible constraints on
the possibility-space of that hair.  Would-be extenders tend to ignore
the beast.


> > On the other hand, which is worse, Libertarian fixation on maximizing
> > personal liberty or the liberal ideal of one agent: one equal vote?
> > Both lack the dimensionality necessary for success in the bigger
> > picture.
>
> I agree that both normally laudable principles are dangerous
> when carried to extremes. Yes, without principles we'd be
> entirely lost, but just as you say we should always be careful
> about their "low dimensionality".

I'm not talking about systems at their extremes.  I'm talking about
supposed Flatlanders blocked in their road building until they
discover that overpasses have always been a possibility.


> >> Moreover, the progress of EP over the last 30 years further diminishes
> >> the relevance (and plasibility), it seems to me, of the basic views
> >> espoused by cultural anthropologists. There does seem to be a basic
> >> *human nature*.  We all share a greater amount of behavior than was
> >> appreciated 50 years ago.
> >
> > Like a tree with roots firmly grounded in its interactions with a
> > consistent (but always only incompletely knowable) "physics", each of
> > the individual leaves can find a basis for pragmatic agreement at some
> > level.  Therein lies the seed of a pragmatic politics of private
> > choices and public consequences.

> Sorry!  I have a feeling that I agree with that, but it's a little too abstract.

It is indeed an abstract metaphor, but one I think isn't too obscure
for many on this list.

I think I'll let it rest for now at that

- Jef

From jonkc at att.net  Sun Oct  7 15:59:07 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:59:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5CFEEAC-9724-4328-B4AC-276DBBB0FAFD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c808fb$11843670$00054e0c@MyComputer>

"Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>

> one of the most difficult to accept
> conclusions I have ever come to.

I disagree, the UFO and ESP people have conclusions too and they are
about equally difficult to accept because they are as STUPID as your idea.
However your conclusion has an additional dimension besides idiocy,
your crap is vicious.

Samantha you have every right to be angry about the war in Iraq, I'm angry
too, but you shouldn't let your anger rise to a point where it overwhelms
your rationality. If the silly ideas you were pedaling were to become widely
believed, (and we both know history is full of silly ideas that were widely
believed) then there will be a demand for revenge against the American
"traitors" involved in this evil 911 "plot". And that could lead to far
worse things than the war in Iraq.

You worry about civil rights and I do too, but now you would have
American citizens rounded up and put in camps for being involved
in an evil 911 conspiracy that in fact never existed. If I don't like your
politics I'll put you in the camp too; true I can't prove you had anything
to do with the plot, but that is a small point because I can't prove that
anybody in the camp had anything to do with it either because there
was no plot to be involved in.

It turned out that the rational for the war was built on a house of cards,
but if you have your way the violent backlash would have an equally shaky
foundation. You are doing EXACTLY what George Bush did 5 years ago,
letting your emotions run away with you.  Saddam Hussein had weapons
of mass destruction or he did not, there was an evil American plot to crash
airliners into buildings or there was not. Science will not be fooled and
that is why policies built on a bullshit premise will lead to disaster.

 John K Clark





From jef at jefallbright.net  Sun Oct  7 17:01:21 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:01:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
	<020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710071001m7e7c90e5ydd62b03fc5d091f7@mail.gmail.com>

Re-send due to offlist requests from a few people saying that the
earlier post was garbled.

I dunno, it looks okay to me here in gmail and in the Exi archives at
<http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-October/037951.html>.

Could it be something to do with certain email clients and utf-8 encoding?

- Jef

----------------------------------

On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> Jef writes (I'm back to reading his posts, just not having a very good
> ability to hold a grudge)

And I'm reminded again of the slightly bizarre flavor of our
interactions.   Difficult to pin down precisely due to the nature of
the medium, but typically and distinctly off.


> > On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> >
> >> My brother is a cultural anthropologist and I've been exposed to that
> >> point of view a long time. Indeed, the first criticism I had of libertarianism
> >> (and I'm still at least half-libertarian) is that it entirely fails to take culture
> >> into account.
> >
> > An astute observation, and one I didn't realize we share.  I thought
> > you claimed devout Libertarianism.
>
> Please.  Our discussions should not be about me.

I expressed some surprise and interest in your apparently changing
Libertarian beliefs, and I think you broached the topic. My interest
in the evolution of political processes and beliefs has been ongoing
for years and has nothing to do with you personally.


> > Further to your point, I'd say it's about blindness to the essential
> > structure supporting their individual efforts.  Much as an arrogant
> > software engineer, proud of his creations, might extrapolate to grand
> > visions of what he might achieve if not held back by the regressive
> > forces surrounding him, with little regard for the adaptations baked
> > in to the editors, compilers, OS, microcode, hardware, and the people
> > and institutions (and deeper) from which these grow.

> Sorry, but you lost me with the first sentence. Whose individual efforts?

Further to your preceding point that Libertarianism "entirely fails to
take culture into account", the efforts of those who might act
according to that caricature of Libertarianism.


> I think that you're saying something like "there can be too much
> theory with too little adaptation to realities"?

I don't think that's implied by what I wrote.

I described a fairly common example of na?ve lack of accounting, not
just for surrounding culture [your claim], but for a complex, dynamic,
social-technological structure constructed via eons of adaptation.
The proud but na?ve programmer in the example sees his lines of code
as constituting the value of his product, and in an everyday sense
where we don't need to consider the infrastructure, like we don't need
to consider the air we breathe, that's quite adequate.  But such
thinking, all-to-common, is ineffective when applied to the challenges
of the larger system, e.g. what it would take to grow social
decision-making beyond the present politics of scarcity.

That pure radiant ideal of maximizing personal freedom in "politics"
is akin to the elegant and ineffective ideal of Solomonoff induction
in machine intelligence.  Each is like a hair on a pimple on the hiney
of a much higher-dimensional beast, and the nature of that beast,
however arbitrary, imposes computationally irreducible constraints on
the possibility-space of that hair.  Would-be extenders tend to ignore
the beast.


> > On the other hand, which is worse, Libertarian fixation on maximizing
> > personal liberty or the liberal ideal of one agent: one equal vote?
> > Both lack the dimensionality necessary for success in the bigger
> > picture.
>
> I agree that both normally laudable principles are dangerous
> when carried to extremes. Yes, without principles we'd be
> entirely lost, but just as you say we should always be careful
> about their "low dimensionality".

I'm not talking about systems at their extremes.  I'm talking about
supposed Flatlanders blocked in their road building until they
discover that overpasses have always been a possibility.


> >> Moreover, the progress of EP over the last 30 years further diminishes
> >> the relevance (and plasibility), it seems to me, of the basic views
> >> espoused by cultural anthropologists. There does seem to be a basic
> >> *human nature*.  We all share a greater amount of behavior than was
> >> appreciated 50 years ago.
> >
> > Like a tree with roots firmly grounded in its interactions with a
> > consistent (but always only incompletely knowable) "physics", each of
> > the individual leaves can find a basis for pragmatic agreement at some
> > level.  Therein lies the seed of a pragmatic politics of private
> > choices and public consequences.

> Sorry!  I have a feeling that I agree with that, but it's a little too abstract.

It is indeed an abstract metaphor, but one I think isn't too obscure
for many on this list.

I think I'll let it rest for now at that

- Jef

From jef at jefallbright.net  Sun Oct  7 17:39:47 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:39:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining Unusual Beliefs
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710071001m7e7c90e5ydd62b03fc5d091f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
	<020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710071001m7e7c90e5ydd62b03fc5d091f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710071039p5dddbeearaf3f5459718b27a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
> Re-send due to offlist requests from a few people saying that the
> earlier post was garbled.
>
> I dunno, it looks okay to me here in gmail and in the Exi archives at
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2007-October/037951.html>.
>
> Could it be something to do with certain email clients and utf-8 encoding?

It turns out that each person experiencing a problem is using Eudora.
See the following URI for an explanation and a possible fix for
Eudora's non-compliant rendering of standard utf-8 text.

The symptoms were apparently triggered by my use of the i diaeresis in
"naive" rather than the "naive" spelling of "naive".

<http://www.windharp.de/software/utf8iso.htm>

- Jef


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 19:07:17 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:07:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks (was: Fascist America,
	in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/07, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>
> "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com> Wrote:
>
> > 1) 911 almost certainly was an inside job,
> > seriously inside.
>
> I won't say that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen, but I do believe
> the
> above deserves to be somewhere on the top ten


I would submit that the real issues here are "job", "inside" and
"seriously".

That is, I do not believe anybody can claim certainty on how determinant and
active, rather than passive, the "insiders" involvement was, and what level
it reached in official, and/or real, US powers that be. Let us say, however,
that "some" kind of involvement, at "some" level, seems much more likely a
scenario than the opposite.

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 19:18:22 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:18:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> But what
> exactly is the meaning of "fascism" here?

I have myself insisted on the idea that the word "fascism" (as
"christian", "libertarian", "communist", etc.) should not be employed
as some kind of categorical, metaphysical anathema, but rather
restricted to what self-defined fascists have themselves identified as
their historical identity. For instance, strictly speaking, many
Italian fascist intellectuals  doubted in the thirties that the Third
Reich itself could be considered as a "true" fascist regime.

To wonder whether Montezuma or Ramses or Torquemada or Louis XIV or
Breznev, or for that matter Bush, are "fascists" in some sense is just
bad rethorics, since there are obvious cultural gaps that make the
comparison moot, whatever blame their regimes may deserve.

Stefano Vaj


From andres at thoughtware.tv  Sun Oct  7 20:18:09 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:18:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Malicious Mindware for Reality-Enhancers,
	Uploads and visual AIs?
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710071318s18f3e386k3bb0fa5786229cea@mail.gmail.com>

Reality-enhancers (meaning transhumans that will heavily implement Augmented
Reality Technology as an enhancement on a daily basis), AI or Uploads could
face threats from malicious mindware. These threats could range from minor
annoyances (as the prototype you'll soon see) all the way up to some serious
threats.

Video link: Malicious Mindware via Augmented
Reality<http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/849>

This Thoughtware.TV video introduces you to an installation that explores
the notion that our virtual identity could be constantly under threat of
attack by a swarm of 'bugs' trying to feed off the fabric of our virtual
being.

Thoughtware.TV asks: How will you protect yourself and others from Malicious
Mindware trying to impose or corrupt your perception of Reality?

To me these technologies could be so disastrous to our identity, that they
could border on what I jokingly consider "sinful software" (sinware)...Its
in our best interest as transhumans to take future malware seriously as the
technologies we wish to implement and enhance ourselves with approach.

Feel free to share any resources that have considered the idea.

Andr?s,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.tv> - "..your pool of Transhuman
Memes"
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From jonkc at att.net  Sun Oct  7 20:25:40 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:25:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>

Stefano Vaj Wrote:


> Let us say, however, that "some" kind of involvement, at "some" level,
> seems much more likely a scenario than the opposite.

As there is no rational reason or the smallest particle of evidence to
believe in such a thing I can only conclude that you received this
information from the Blessed Virgin in a dream, or perhaps it was
miraculously spelled out in pepperonis in a pizza that you bought.

There is stupid and then there is Mega Stupid, and that particular
conspiracy theory is Mega Stupid! And it's not like I'm the champion for the
status quo, I defy you to find anyone on this list who has written more or
better anti government screeds than me! But as angry as I got I never
became completely insane (OK maybe a little but not completely). Yes I
understand it feels very good to imagine that your political opponents are
capable of such enormous depravity, and yes it really does make one feel
wonderfully virtuous by comparison, but such gross self deceptions can
never lead to good things, certainly not to good policy.

 John K Clark






From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 20:55:42 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:55:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> Stefano Vaj Wrote:
>
> > Let us say, however, that "some" kind of involvement, at "some" level,
> > seems much more likely a scenario than the opposite.
>
> As there is no rational reason or the smallest particle of evidence to
> believe in such a thing I can only conclude that you received this
> information from the Blessed Virgin in a dream, or perhaps it was
> miraculously spelled out in pepperonis in a pizza that you bought.

Why, I say that "some" involvement (the degree, level and nature
thereof remaining debatable) seems very plausible. You say that you
know for a fact, with a 100% certainty, that no such thing, in any
sense whatsoever, could ever have happened.

Yet, you may well be right, and I may be wrong, and I do not believe
that this is the right place to discuss the at least circumstantial
evidence that encourages me - as well as a significant chunk of even
the American public! - to think that a more than reasonable doubt
exists.

But were I professing such an unwaivering article of faith as you do,
I would certainly not characterise any opposite position as
"information received from the Virgin Mary" for fear of ridicule.
Certainly, the burden of proof is on the official version, not on
those remarking where it may be unsatisfactory or inconsistent or
insufficient. On the contrary, the number alternative hypotheses, even
when they are mutually exclusive, reinforces the idea that such
official version is far from being "the truth, all the truth, nothing
but the truth".

> There is stupid and then there is Mega Stupid, and that particular
> conspiracy theory is Mega Stupid!

The problem with conspiracies is that conspiracies sometimes... do
exist. What is far-fetched and delusional is the idea of an
omnipotence of conspirators. On the contrary, it can probably be said
that for any events, 9/11 included, there are forces and powers who
are directly or indirectly benefitted and other who are harmed.

> Yes I
> understand it feels very good to imagine that your political opponents are
> capable of such enormous depravity, and yes it really does make one feel
> wonderfully virtuous by comparison,

A "political opponent" such as bin Laden, for instance?

Whose ambiguous statements, by the way, never included the smallest
evidence that he  was actually informed of the attacks beforehand, or
that details that only the organisers might know were available to
him?

Stefano Vaj


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Sun Oct  7 21:00:02 2007
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:00:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>

John K Clark wrote:
> Stefano Vaj Wrote:
> 
> 
>> Let us say, however, that "some" kind of involvement, at "some" level,
>> seems much more likely a scenario than the opposite.
> 
> As there is no rational reason or the smallest particle of evidence to
> believe in such a thing I can only conclude that you received this
> information from the Blessed Virgin in a dream, or perhaps it was
> miraculously spelled out in pepperonis in a pizza that you bought.

If this means what I think it means, the your comment puts you in the 
same bracket as Samantha:  pretending that obvious evidence does not 
exist is just as irrational as gullibly swallowing non-existent evidence.

It is quite easy to assemble a prima-facie case for *passive* 
involvement:  that prima facie case simply involves the deliberate 
avoidance of all efforts to counter a pending terrorist attack, in the 
hope that the attack would get through and give the administration the 
excuse it needed for implementing its policies.

This is what I assume Stefano meant by "passive involvement".  [Stefano: 
correct me if I am wrong].

There was abundant evidence for that scenario, starting the early 
position paper written by the Neo-Cons when Bush Senior was in power 
(after reading their position paper, GHW Bush threw it in the trash in 
front of a witness and dismissed the authors as lunatics).  That 
position paper basically said that probably the only thing that would 
allow the proposal to become a reality was the occurrence of a new 
"Pearl Harbor".  Later, of course, there was the extraordinary and 
mind-boogling go-slow on anti-terrorism activities that started when the 
present administration first arrived in office, as documented in detail 
by Richard Clarke and others.  The full extent of that go-slow has many 
components to it, all interlocking into one chilling picture.

There does not need to be any suggestion that anyone knew any precise 
details of the attacks.  No conspiracy to do anything at all (and 
certainly not a conspiracy to blow anything up).  And no knowledge of 
exactly what the attack would be.  Just a decision, at some level, that 
they had to allow the widely expected big attack to get through.

The one piece of evidence that counts against this passive involvement 
scenario is that the administration is so stupid at its highest level 
that thinking that far ahead is impossible for it.  On balance, I think 
it's fifty-fifty there.

If what you were intending, by your remark, John, was to attack some 
more nefarious meaning of "passive involvement" for which there really 
is no evidence, then I withdraw paragraph one, above.



Richard Loosemore




From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 22:48:57 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:48:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> The highest levels of government... participated in stonewalling a full investigation
> for three years and then doing a tame investigation that avoided many issues
> and questions that are critical.

In this I unreservedly agree.  The 9/11 commission report is brazen,
transparent, insulting garbage.  The resistance to a post-event
investigation and the deceitfulness of the eventually coerced report
stand as a stark indictment of the entire political class.

Going from the 9/11 cover-up to the conclusion that the political
elite planned the whole thing, has a certain logical coherence   Plus
the political elite's proven capacity for evil (lying, stealing,
killing) is completely consistent with what would be required of them
to plan and execute the entire 9/11 atrocity.  Here is the crucial mix
that finally tips the balance and persuades otherwise reasonable
people to conclude (mistakenly; YMMV) that 9/11 was "an inside job".
This, plus a barrage of technical arguments which seem plausible, but
only if one lacks the technical sophistication to dispose of them.
(Other list members have already done that, so I needn't go into it.)

But look to the other side of the argument.  The 9/11 report, cover-up
that it was, was not about covering up a masterfully planned and
executed plot to subvert our republic and establish an empire, but
rather a garden variety procedural exercise in domestic political
damage control.  The elite needed to cover up the glaring fact that
the Bushcabal had at best, been asleep at the switch, at worst,
abandoned its post.  (LIke Bush in the Texas Air National Guard, off
somewhere, partying.)

But for me, there is the one factor above all others that weighs
against a "9/11 inside job": the issue of competence.  The Bushcabal
hasn't any.  Not in the real world.  Not in the world outside their
imagination.  They couldn't have pulled off 9/11 as an inside job if
they wanted to.   This is the gang that can't, shoot straight.  These
are people who have their heads up their backsides and think it's
nighttime.  Fueled by their ambition and blinded by the darkness that
comes with believing you're smarter than everyone else, they have
launched themselves beyond the surly bonds of reality.

And how is that?

They have but one area of competence.  They are the Guinness Book of
World Records champeen liars.  And that's saying something, because
lying is a very mainstream activity with many a skilled practitioner.
Getting to the top of that dung heap is no small accomplishment.
But the mastery of serial dishonesty has exacted its toll: a stark
disconnect from reality.  Believing your own echo chamber,
narcissistic, arrogant hogwash propels you past the boundaries of
reality.   Beyond which there be dragons,...the dragons of
incompetence.

-- 
Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you
                     know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 23:29:29 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 01:29:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710071629l2c2b48cdn70625c06f0436723@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com> wrote:
>
>
> It is quite easy to assemble a prima-facie case for *passive*
> involvement:  that prima facie case simply involves the deliberate
> avoidance of all efforts to counter a pending terrorist attack, in the
> hope that the attack would get through and give the administration the
> excuse it needed for implementing its policies.


This is what I assume Stefano meant by "passive involvement".  [Stefano:
> correct me if I am wrong].


Correct. Of course, it may go from pure inertia to some forms of
"facilitating", and there again it may involve different levels of people
and different degrees of knowledge.

The one piece of evidence that counts against this passive involvement
> scenario is that the administration is so stupid at its highest level
> that thinking that far ahead is impossible for it.
>

Sure. But "inside" simply means American, and need not refer to the
administration - that is, ultimately the President - as such. Some theories
even suggest that Bush and his immediate staff were to an extent the
not-too-reluctant "victims" of forces and groups who were afterwards to see
their weight and power significantly enhanced. Not that this alternative
possibility definitely excludes the possibility you are taking into
consideration.

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 23:49:20 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 01:49:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710071649j1489bf68q5c457a6fea3ef224@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The 9/11 report, cover-up
> that it was, was not about covering up a masterfully planned and
> executed plot to subvert our republic and establish an empire, but
> rather a garden variety procedural exercise in domestic political
> damage control.  The elite needed to cover up the glaring fact that
> the Bushcabal had at best, been asleep at the switch, at worst,
> abandoned its post.  (LIke Bush in the Texas Air National Guard, off
> somewhere, partying.)
>

I do not see this idea as too inconsistent with that of an "inside job".

To get back to transhumanism, let us say that wanting a divorce I
manufacture a Frankenstein monster, let him free in the garden and leave the
door of my bride's bedroom open. I may have "forget" it open, for sure I did
not organise her murder, but let us say that were I or not aware in advance
of the details of what was going to happen it cannot be exactly claim that I
am really surprised by, and/or entirely innocent of, the developments.

What is exactly the border line? The fact that some federal agent or other,
as opposed to purely independent players, were informed in advance of the
date? Of the target? Of the techique? Or the fact that a written order
signed by the President of the United States was signed or not, indicating
the model of plane to be used, and the buildings to attack? Or was not a
king of England who once expressed his wishes to be freed by an inconvenient
presence by some unspecified occurrence? The chain of command works best not
when micromanaging, ? la Nixon, but simply conveying the idea that "what
shold be done, should be done", maintaining flexibility and deniability all
the way.

Stefano Vaj
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From jnh at vt11.net  Mon Oct  8 00:11:40 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:11:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710071629l2c2b48cdn70625c06f0436723@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
	<580930c20710071629l2c2b48cdn70625c06f0436723@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071008001140.GO1016@vt11.net>

On 10/7/07, Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com> wrote:
> > The one piece of evidence that counts against this passive
> > involvement scenario is that the administration is so stupid at
> > its highest level that thinking that far ahead is impossible for
> > it.
 
On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 01:29:29AM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Sure. But "inside" simply means American, and need not refer to the
> administration - that is, ultimately the President - as such. Some
> theories even suggest that Bush and his immediate staff were to an
> extent the not-too-reluctant "victims" of forces and groups who were
> afterwards to see their weight and power significantly enhanced. Not
> that this alternative possibility definitely excludes the
> possibility you are taking into consideration.

Have you read Chapter 9 of Tarpley's book, regarding the coded "Angel
is Next" message to Air Force One?  Although this line of argument
involves some speculation, it does fit well with Bush's otherwise very
unusual behavior on the day of the attacks.

> Stefano Vaj

-- 
Jordan.


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 01:17:30 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:17:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: BCI lit (was Re: Michael's question)
Message-ID: <200710072017.30564.kanzure@gmail.com>

Extropians: I posted this over to [wta-talk] and figure it's close 
enough to be of importance to forward. Any thoughts? .. or anybody 
already with implants on the list?

- Bryan

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Re: BCI lit (was Re: Michael's question)
Date: Sunday 07 October 2007 20:14
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List 
<wta-talk at transhumanism.org>

Got through some of the papers and typed out some quick notes, found
some more and threw them into the directory. So there's new content
there. The research is really interesting.

One of my favorites is the 5 MB/sec bidirectional optical (infrared)
brain-machine interface based on the Utah microelectrode array
(10-by-10). There's also Irazoqui's 2003 neurotransceiver based on RF
data/power transception into the telencephalon. Kevin Warwick and his
wife appear at least once. Experimenters have worked with mice, guinnea
pigs, zebra finches, monkeys, and even sharks.

I hope this helps facilitate more tech-related discussion on the list.
 I am tempted to announce my desire to try to attain my own implant,
 but it's too soon and I do not have any outlines of what I'd have to
 do to meet up with the right people to make the surgery happen or to
 make sure my circuits are going to function.

- Bryan
(who has just picked up "The Singularity is Near" for the first time)

On Friday 05 October 2007 17:40, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> Also: I have collected some files on BCIs.
> http://heybryan.org/docs/neuro/
>
> This weekend I will be doing some writeups and reviews

-------------------------------------------------------


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Oct  7 23:16:59 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 18:16:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Take Off List (Re:  Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>

Is there anyone beside Max and me who would like to see this thread 
be taken off list?

Thanks,
Natasha


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, Centre for 
Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  8 01:25:31 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:25:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Stephano writes

> On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
> > But what exactly is the meaning of "fascism" here?
> 
> I have myself insisted on the idea that the word "fascism" (as
> "christian", "libertarian", "communist", etc.) should not be employed
> as some kind of categorical, metaphysical anathema...

Evidently the folks using the term on this list deny that it's
as you say "categorical metaphysical anathema", but yet
they still haven't answered some very basic questions
about JUST WHAT THE DEVIL THEY MEAN.

I have asked questions like

      Is Cuba a fascist country?

      Is Fidel Castro a fascist?

and all I get back are claims that there are certain *American*
"fascists" who'd "not blink at taking U.S. citizens out into
international waters and torturing them, blowing up buildings,
or anything else their superiors "suggested" was in the best
interests of the Country...".

Which leads me to wonder whether people who'd act in such
highhanded ways for Cuba, or for Mexico, or for the former
U.S.S.R. would properly be called fascists by the people here
making great hay with the term.  

The silence on these questions leads me to conjecture that
"fascist" means to them, such the example above might suggest,
someone who is an American and who would do these extreme
things.  Analogously, a "fascist country" would be either
(a) America, or (b) an ally of America that denied its citizens
certain rights.  But in all cases, so I'm surmizing, it simply
cannot be the case that a progressive country like Cuba or North
Korea is fascist according to their usage.  But surely someone
who uses the term will answer the above questions and the
ones like them in my original post.

> but rather restricted to what self-defined fascists have
> themselves identified as their historical identity.

Now, *that* would be sensible indeed, but would lack political
and partisan propaganda utility, I suspect.

> For instance, strictly speaking, many Italian fascist intellectuals
> doubted in the thirties that the Third Reich itself could be
> considered as a "true" fascist regime.
> 
> To wonder whether Montezuma or Ramses or Torquemada or Louis XIV or
> Breznev, or for that matter Bush, are "fascists" in some sense is just
> bad rethorics, since there are obvious cultural gaps that make the
> comparison moot, whatever blame their regimes may deserve.

I agree.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  8 01:38:31 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:38:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
References: <4707FE19.1010903@comcast.net> <470807A1.7090307@pobox.com>
	<BAY124-DAV1554675E0DBDD7F9364B36A3AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <025301c8094c$14e055f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Brent wrote

> Anyway, funerals are always hard for me.  How many of you have the same 
> problem?

Yes, but funerals are hard for almost everyone. Still, many people
believe that it's necessary to go anyway. In very early times, it
was necessary  so that the deceased would have a better time of
it on the other side.  Now it's a tie between "wanting to show
respect" and "getting closure with vis a vis the person's death".

So I force myself to go to funerals when I think that very few
people will be attending, *and* that my presence will be of some
aid to the friends and relatives.  I've stopped going if I believe
many people will be there, and I've stopped going in the cases
where no one cares much about my presence.  The wife of our
dearly beloved boss was quite upset at me for missing, but I
simply didn't have a good reason to go:  our boss had hundreds
of friends and relatives who did.

Lee



From andres at thoughtware.tv  Mon Oct  8 02:03:59 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:03:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thoughtware.TV news: First artificial life form created
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710071903i3f740927u98951086b39863d5@mail.gmail.com>

DNA researcher Craig Venter "has built a synthetic chromosome out of
laboratory chemicals and is poised to announce the creation of the first new
artificial life form on Earth."

The new species is made from an artificial chromosome constructed by a team
of 20 leading scientists led by Nobel laureate Hamilton Smith. The
chromosome is "381 genes long and contains 580,000 base pairs of genetic
code."

While this is a Bio-conservative's post on this topic, I figure everyone
here will want to read this:
http://crunchgear.com/2007/10/06/head-for-the-hills-first-new-artificial-life-form-created/

Related news:
http://news.google.com/?ned=us&ncl=1121772484&hl=en&topic=t

Andr?s,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.tv> - "...artificial, but sexy"
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From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 02:04:17 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 19:04:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>

Lee;

Since you quoted partially from my post, I'll take the bait and say that I
think Wikipedia (as usual) does an adequate job of explaining what is meant
by Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism ):"Fascism is an
authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that
considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs
of the state."

If you're trying to infer from my post that I only consider America or
Americans to be fascist, that would be totally incorrect.  In fact I would
say that only a small number of Americans would have such statist,
authoritarian, anti-individualist leanings...  The list of Fascist countries
would probably be very long.

James Clement



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Lee Corbin
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 6:26 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?

Stephano writes

> On 10/6/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:
> 
> > But what exactly is the meaning of "fascism" here?
> 
> I have myself insisted on the idea that the word "fascism" (as
> "christian", "libertarian", "communist", etc.) should not be employed
> as some kind of categorical, metaphysical anathema...

Evidently the folks using the term on this list deny that it's
as you say "categorical metaphysical anathema", but yet
they still haven't answered some very basic questions
about JUST WHAT THE DEVIL THEY MEAN.

I have asked questions like

      Is Cuba a fascist country?

      Is Fidel Castro a fascist?

and all I get back are claims that there are certain *American*
"fascists" who'd "not blink at taking U.S. citizens out into
international waters and torturing them, blowing up buildings,
or anything else their superiors "suggested" was in the best
interests of the Country...".

Which leads me to wonder whether people who'd act in such
highhanded ways for Cuba, or for Mexico, or for the former
U.S.S.R. would properly be called fascists by the people here
making great hay with the term.  

The silence on these questions leads me to conjecture that
"fascist" means to them, such the example above might suggest,
someone who is an American and who would do these extreme
things.  Analogously, a "fascist country" would be either
(a) America, or (b) an ally of America that denied its citizens
certain rights.  But in all cases, so I'm surmizing, it simply
cannot be the case that a progressive country like Cuba or North
Korea is fascist according to their usage.  But surely someone
who uses the term will answer the above questions and the
ones like them in my original post.

> but rather restricted to what self-defined fascists have
> themselves identified as their historical identity.

Now, *that* would be sensible indeed, but would lack political
and partisan propaganda utility, I suspect.

> For instance, strictly speaking, many Italian fascist intellectuals
> doubted in the thirties that the Third Reich itself could be
> considered as a "true" fascist regime.
> 
> To wonder whether Montezuma or Ramses or Torquemada or Louis XIV or
> Breznev, or for that matter Bush, are "fascists" in some sense is just
> bad rethorics, since there are obvious cultural gaps that make the
> comparison moot, whatever blame their regimes may deserve.

I agree.

Lee

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  8 04:10:19 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:10:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <027601c80961$cd248720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Richard writes

> There does not need to be any suggestion that anyone knew any precise 
> details of the attacks.  No conspiracy to do anything at all (and 
> certainly not a conspiracy to blow anything up).  And no knowledge of 
> exactly what the attack would be.  Just a decision, at some level, that 
> they had to allow the widely expected big attack to get through.

A decision, at some level, "to allow the widely expected big
attack to get through" would leave traces, no?  Again, a conspiracy
must be immune to defectors and to people wanting to write a lot
of books and become celebrities like John Dean.

Now, how many people would have to be involved in that 
conspiracy?  (I honestly ask for estimates.)  Do you suppose
that the 9-11 pictures, TV shots of people jumping from 
buildings, and so on, never cause these people remorse
or second thoughts?  All in all, conspiracies require a lot
of evidence to be believed in.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  8 04:29:51 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:29:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

James writes

> ...I think Wikipedia (as usual) does an adequate job of explaining what is meant
> by Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism ):"Fascism is an
> authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that
> considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs
> of the state."

Fine.

> If you're trying to infer from my post that I only consider America or
> Americans to be fascist, that would be totally incorrect.

Glad to hear it. Then you'll join me, I imagine, in noting how
strange it is that the word is never used except as a pejorative
against certain patriotic (or hyper-patriotic) Americans and
their allies. How strange.  Especially since the people in question
*never* use the term to describe themselves.

Are people on this list really so vocabulary-challenged that
for a pejorative they need to reach back to Mussolini's Italy?

As the wikipedia article says:

    Fascist as epithet

    The word fascist has become a slur throughout the political
    spectrum following World War II (WWII), and it has been uncommon
    for political groups to call themselves fascist. In contemporary
    political discourse, adherents of some political ideologies tend
    to associate fascism with their enemies, or define it as the
    opposite of their own views. In the strict sense of the word,
    Fascism covers movements before WWII, and later movements are
    described as Neo-fascist.

    Some have argued that the term fascist has become hopelessly
    vague over the years and that it has become little more than a
    pejorative epithet. George Orwell wrote in 1944:

    "...the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In
    conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in
    print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social
    Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the
    1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang
    Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels,
    astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any
    English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for
    'Fascist'.[19]

Ha! 1944!  Orwell would probably be astonished that things
had not progressed any during the 63 years since then!

Let's face it.  It's a code word spoken by liberals/leftists/progressives/
collectivists/... (those labels keep evolving at a high rate, but I do
think it appropriate to call people by the descriptions they themselves
provide).  The code word is used as a signal of solidarity among
them to each other---and, equally, as a signal to their adversaries.
It's really worse than the <n-word> , because at least the <n-word>
is often used among the very targeted people themselves!

> In fact I would say that only a small number of Americans would
> have such statist, authoritarian, anti-individualist leanings...  The list
> of Fascist countries would probably be very long.

Yes, and I do appreciate your calm rationality on the issue.  Yet I
don't expect to ever hear you use the term to describe any people
whatsoever in those countries. And when, next, do you suppose
that the leaders of some horribly authoritarian little African state
are next going to be described as "fascist"?

Lee



From jonkc at att.net  Mon Oct  8 05:46:23 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 01:46:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>

Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> that prima facie case simply involves the deliberate avoidance of all
> efforts to counter a pending terrorist attack

After ANY intelligence failure, from Peal Harbor to the Kennedy
assassination to 911 it is always easy to find things that should have been
followed up but were not; but unfortunately it is not nearly as easy to do
BEFORE the event. The problem is never too little information but too
much, the problem is knowing what is worth more investigation and what
is not. Afterwards it's easy to know but not before.

Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> You say that you know for a fact, with a 100% certainty, that no such
> thing, in any sense whatsoever, could ever have happened.

Certainty is a state of mind and I said not one word about it. What I did
say is that Samantha's statement is as close to being objectively STUPID as
a mere human being is likely to ever encounter. I stand by that.

> the burden of proof is on the official version

So you do not have to prove I was part of this "plot",
I have to prove I was not. Can you say witch hunt?

> I do not believe that this is the right place to discuss the at least
> circumstantial evidence that encourages me - as well as a significant
> chunk of even the  American public!

You are quite correct, the Extropian list is not the place to discuss your
crappy "evidence" and for the same reason we don't discuss a picture of
Jesus found in a pizza, it's crappy. As for the American public, yes a
significant chunk no doubt believes in some sort of screwy 911 conspiracy.
They believe in a pizza Jesus too.

> to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.

More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the evidence is good enough right
now to put American citizens in gas chambers for this phantom conspiracy.
This is what I meant when I said it's not only idiotic it's vicious.

Don't embarrass yourself people!

 John K Clark




From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Mon Oct  8 06:27:25 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:27:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Importance of Clear Writing (was Explaining Unusual
	Beliefs)
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20071004165222.0223f908@satx.rr.com><a6a17bd40710051530k2dd16e5bse960e323f7b53f2e@mail.gmail.com><1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net><BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl><01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl><01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677><f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com><020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028b01c80974$ba033d90$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jef writes

> > I think that you're saying something like "there can be too much
> > theory with too little adaptation to realities"?

(My feeble attempt to conjecture just what you were getting at.)

> I don't think that's implied by what I wrote.

Okay.

> I described a fairly common example of na?ve lack of accounting, not
> just for surrounding culture [your claim], but for a complex, dynamic,
> social-technological structure constructed via eons of adaptation.

Sorry, Jef, but this is just unclear. Accounting of what? Accounting
by whom?  Which structure?  Yes, I'll grant that the structure you
probably mean is *society*, and that the actor you probably mean is
*libertarianism*, but my last conjecture as to what you meant failed
utterly.

Suggestion:  every time you unload such an abstract sentence,
immediately follow it up with an ambiguity-decreaser, another
sentence that says essentially the same thing only using different
words. (And a good trick is to throw in, in this follow-up sentence,
just a tad of new information, so that the redundancy isn't exact
and isn't obvious.)

All readers make conjectures of what is meant every single
time that they read, (a tenet of evolutionary epistemology).
And no prose itself perfectly carries meaning, especially to all
readers. So anything that enables the reader to parse back
the tree of possible conjectures greatly simplifies his task,
and makes the writing lucid.

> That pure radiant ideal of maximizing personal freedom in "politics"
> is akin to the elegant and ineffective ideal of Solomonoff induction
> in machine intelligence.  Each is like a hair on a pimple on the hiney
> of a much higher-dimensional beast, and the nature of that beast,
> however arbitrary, imposes computationally irreducible constraints on
> the possibility-space of that hair.  Would-be extenders tend to ignore
> the beast.

Perhaps others enjoy parsing such paragraphs, but I sure don't.
"Each [ideal?] is like a hair on a pimple on the hiney
of a much higher-dimensional beast [whose] nature,
however arbitrary, imposes computationally irreducible
constraints on the possibility-space of that hair..."

I trust that you are not having a big joke here, and are not just
trying out a talk-bot.  At least I *think* that I can read more
meaning into paragraphs like that than any talk-bot can today
generate.

But is it really necessary to try to *communicate* that way?
Why can't you try writing without all the potential ambiguity?
I hope that you're not afraid of appearing dumb just because
your writing is transparent.

Lee



From amara at amara.com  Mon Oct  8 06:05:55 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:05:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Using quantum mechanics to sell Ricoh Printers:
Message-ID: <p06230900c32f78d0bab6@[23.237.66.13]>


Here is a remarkable ad, using quantum mechanics to sell Ricoh Printers:

Ricoh Printers: Intelligent Model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saWCyZupO4U

The words, came directly from Scott Aaronson's lectures, without his
knowing (or permission), causing some discussion:

Australian actresses are plagiarizing my quantum mechanics lecture to
sell printers

http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=277


... It goes to show... you never know where your words might appear!

Amara


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct  8 07:18:26 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:18:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: quoting
Message-ID: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>


Folks, I've had enough. Anyone who'll be caught top-posting,
and/or not trimming down cited material will go on moderation.

And please kill that 9/11 thread as well.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 07:27:51 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:27:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Take Off List (Re: Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710080027y7ffe58edi2360e5ae9269a078@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>
>  Is there anyone beside Max and me who would like to see this thread be
> taken off list?
>


I agree.
I don't mind a bit of conspiracy theory nonsense, but this one has
gone on long enough.

There are thousands of conspiracy sites out there - It's like an
internet virus, spreading like the plague. But I don't understand how
all these people and sites enjoy knowing about this 'top-secret'
information. How can it be 'top-secret' when Google brings up
thousands upon thousands of pages of gossip about them?

Ref: Michael Shermer book
<http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0805070893>
'Why People Believe Weird Things :
Pseudoscience, Superstition & Other Confusions of Our Time'.

Shermer's conclusion is very simple. People believe weird things
because of wishful thinking and continue to believe in those things
despite contrary evidence because they are unwilling to alter
preconceived notions. The reasons for the unwillingness to shift
paradigms are many. People don't want to admit they are wrong. They
sometimes want something comfortable rather than something true (even
if they play a game of pretend by calling their fantasies and wishes
true). Racism and group think also play major roles. These weird
theories are propagated through 'feedback loops' which Shermer
explains by using the witch hunts as an example. Numerous other
feedback loops have been created recently. The media (especially now
with information being so easily exchanged on a national and global
basis) has been a major player in starting and defusing these loops.

Note: The latest edition includes a new chapter on why *smart* people
believe weird things.

Video talk here, if you can't get the book
<http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/22>


BillK


From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Mon Oct  8 08:52:14 2007
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 04:52:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Dumbest?
In-Reply-To: <005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <622515.40604.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You are really rude John K Clark, you should look into
taking diplomacy classes.

Samantha, you fascinate me, I assume you have a really
great reason why you think 9/11 was pre-organized but
as so far as I've read, there is no proof.  As to what
John was refering to regarding esp people was that in
the effect that there in no (scientific) proof
available.  That doesn't mean that your conspiracy
idea has no claims.
It just means that there is no claim proof.  

Hope I got the basic idea.
Anna:)


--- John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
> 
> > that prima facie case simply involves the
> deliberate avoidance of all
> > efforts to counter a pending terrorist attack
> 
> After ANY intelligence failure, from Peal Harbor to
> the Kennedy
> assassination to 911 it is always easy to find
> things that should have been
> followed up but were not; but unfortunately it is
> not nearly as easy to do
> BEFORE the event. The problem is never too little
> information but too
> much, the problem is knowing what is worth more
> investigation and what
> is not. Afterwards it's easy to know but not before.
> 
> Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> 
> > You say that you know for a fact, with a 100%
> certainty, that no such
> > thing, in any sense whatsoever, could ever have
> happened.
> 
> Certainty is a state of mind and I said not one word
> about it. What I did
> say is that Samantha's statement is as close to
> being objectively STUPID as
> a mere human being is likely to ever encounter. I
> stand by that.
> 
> > the burden of proof is on the official version
> 
> So you do not have to prove I was part of this
> "plot",
> I have to prove I was not. Can you say witch hunt?
> 
> > I do not believe that this is the right place to
> discuss the at least
> > circumstantial evidence that encourages me - as
> well as a significant
> > chunk of even the  American public!
> 
> You are quite correct, the Extropian list is not the
> place to discuss your
> crappy "evidence" and for the same reason we don't
> discuss a picture of
> Jesus found in a pizza, it's crappy. As for the
> American public, yes a
> significant chunk no doubt believes in some sort of
> screwy 911 conspiracy.
> They believe in a pizza Jesus too.
> 
> > to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.
> 
> More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the
> evidence is good enough right
> now to put American citizens in gas chambers for
> this phantom conspiracy.
> This is what I meant when I said it's not only
> idiotic it's vicious.
> 
> Don't embarrass yourself people!
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



      Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail.  Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. Start today at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Oct  8 10:57:34 2007
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 06:57:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] META: quoting
In-Reply-To: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <57811.72.236.102.103.1191841054.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

>
> Folks, I've had enough. Anyone who'll be caught top-posting,
> and/or not trimming down cited material will go on moderation.
>

This is fine. I've made similar requests as mod on other lists.

> And please kill that 9/11 thread as well.


Dang, Eugen. I find that thread interesting. I'm saving some posts, reading them
over. I'm trying to understand/enlarge/refine my concept of fascism. I learned
things there about buildings and building codes. And about *exceptions* to building
codes for certain pseudo-government bodies.

So now you say we must kill it?

This is the second thread recently that I've found interesting that you've asked to
be killed.  Maybe I'm on the wrong list. But this is the most interesting list I'm
on. :(

Regards,
MB




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct  3 05:52:36 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:52:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new email @
Message-ID: <200710030652.l936qdNR002799@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

 

Greetings friends!  My old email @ was spike66 at comcast.net and the new email
address is

 

spike66 at att.net

 

greg spike jones

 

 

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From randall at randallsquared.com  Mon Oct  8 11:44:09 2007
From: randall at randallsquared.com (Randall Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:44:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>

On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:46 AM, John K Clark wrote:
> Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
>> to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.
>
> More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the evidence is good  
> enough right
> now to put American citizens in gas chambers for this phantom  
> conspiracy.

I think you misunderstand that phrase.  As usually
used, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means *less* than
a reasonable doubt, not more than.

--
Randall Randall <randall at randallsquared.com>
"If I can do it in Alabama, then I'm fairly certain you
  can get away with it anywhere." -- Dresden Codak





From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 12:55:08 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:55:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710080555l639a5ce7r4c5a12a580fd3c93@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Randall Randall wrote:
> I think you misunderstand that phrase.  As usually
> used, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means *less* than
> a reasonable doubt, not more than.
>

No. I think you've got that wrong.
"beyond a reasonable doubt" means that you're going to jail.
See: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof>

The standard of proof is the level of proof required in a legal action
to discharge the burden of proof, ie convince the court that a given
proposition is true. The degree of proof required depends on the
circumstances of the proposition. Typically, most countries have two
levels of proof: the balance of probabilities (BOP), called the
preponderance of evidence in the U.S., (which is the lowest level,
generally thought to be greater than 50%, although numeric
approximations are controversial) and beyond a reasonable doubt (which
is the highest level, but defies numeric approximation). In addition
to these, the U.S. introduced a third standard called clear and
convincing evidence, (which is the medium level of proof).

In colloquial language you can also say "his guilt was established
beyond a shadow of a doubt" when he is caught dead to rights.


I think the problem is that English is not Stefano's first language.
Stefano wrote (rather confusingly) "to discuss the circumstantial
evidence that encourages me to think that a more than reasonable doubt
exists".
What he could have said was "to discuss the circumstantial evidence
that encourages me to think that it is more than reasonable to doubt
the official version".


BillK


From hemm at openlink.com.br  Mon Oct  8 13:24:15 2007
From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado (oplnk))
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:24:15 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>

Important theme. However I strongly disagree with Mr Harris in one thing.
Basically he's saying to atheists in general to get in the closet. I don't
think we should lie or hide anything. We should state clearly our position.
To prove my point, let me suggest an exercise. Suppose you're a gay activist
fighting for the rights of homossexuals. Now take Sam's text and replace the
words "atheist", "humanist", "secularist" etc by "gay", "homosexual", etc.
How would you feel about his speech now?
Let's NOT get in the closet.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sergio M.L. Tarrero
To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List ; 
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:52 PM
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article

A transcript of Sam Harris' recent (controversial) speech at the Atheist 
Alliance Conference is now available on the Washington Post / 
Newsweekwebsite.



From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 13:33:07 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:33:07 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>

On 08/10/2007, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:

> There is stupid and then there is Mega Stupid, and that particular
> conspiracy theory is Mega Stupid! And it's not like I'm the champion for the
> status quo, I defy you to find anyone on this list who has written more or
> better anti government screeds than me! But as angry as I got I never
> became completely insane (OK maybe a little but not completely).

I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
he changed his mind. He stopped the antipsychotics, and the conspiracy
came back. Then he went back on the antipsychotics and the conspiracy
went away again. Presented as an extra piece of empirical data to do
with as you please.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 14:01:28 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:01:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> he changed his mind. He stopped the antipsychotics, and the conspiracy
> came back. Then he went back on the antipsychotics and the conspiracy
> went away again. Presented as an extra piece of empirical data to do
> with as you please.

There's a scientific approach.  What if I told you I put an
unrepentant atheist on antipsychotics and they found god, then they
stopped taking drugs to chemically alter their thinking and went back
to being an atheist.  That's proof, right?

Proof that this argument makes no sense.


From pgptag at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 14:14:29 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:14:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at CINUM 2007 - Digital Civilizations
Message-ID: <470a3c520710080714pba63a10ye51060968819f97c@mail.gmail.com>

My report:

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/cinum_2007_digital_civilizations/


From randall at randallsquared.com  Mon Oct  8 14:20:14 2007
From: randall at randallsquared.com (Randall Randall)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:20:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710080555l639a5ce7r4c5a12a580fd3c93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
	<ee50357e0710080555l639a5ce7r4c5a12a580fd3c93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F3B9365C-AB97-48AD-AF94-03BACCE38530@randallsquared.com>


On Oct 8, 2007, at 8:55 AM, BillK wrote:
> On 10/8/07, Randall Randall wrote:
>> I think you misunderstand that phrase.  As usually
>> used, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means *less* than
>> a reasonable doubt, not more than.
>
> No. I think you've got that wrong.

Actually, I have that quite right (if there is any
reasonable doubt, then there's no going to jail...).
However, on rereading, it's not clear to me that
that was what was meant.

> "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that you're going to jail.
> See: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof>

Right, but the official story is what's "on trial" in
the email that Clark quoted.  After rereading it, it
seems to me that it's not clear whether he meant, as I
thought, that the official story was not proven beyond
reasonable doubt, or meant, as you and Clark seem to
be saying he meant, that the official story was
*disproven* beyond a reasonable doubt.

These are very different assertions, but I see upon
further reflection how you could believe he meant the
latter.  We need a clarification. :)


--
Randall Randall <randall at randallsquared.com>
"[K]nock the whole copyright system down!
  Pitchforks and Torches available to my right!" -- johnnyeponymous




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Oct  8 15:17:50 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:17:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>

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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Oct  8 15:38:01 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:38:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Take Off List (Re: Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710080027y7ffe58edi2360e5ae9269a078@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
	<ee50357e0710080027y7ffe58edi2360e5ae9269a078@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191857809_57867@S4.cableone.net>

At 12:27 AM 10/8/2007, BillK wrote:

snip

>Ref: Michael Shermer book
><http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0805070893>
>'Why People Believe Weird Things :
>Pseudoscience, Superstition & Other Confusions of Our Time'.
>
>Shermer's conclusion is very simple. People believe weird things
>because of wishful thinking and continue to believe in those things
>despite contrary evidence because they are unwilling to alter
>preconceived notions.

I know Shermer slightly.  I should bug him because when "Why people . 
. . " is written down, any explanation should go back to the EEA if 
you want to put a scientific, that is EP level, understanding on it.

>The reasons for the unwillingness to shift
>paradigms are many. People don't want to admit they are wrong.

Why?  We understand status in social primates.  Is admitting being 
wrong worse for your social status?

>They
>sometimes want something comfortable rather than something true (even
>if they play a game of pretend by calling their fantasies and wishes
>true).

At least one kind of irrational behavior comes from the interests of 
a person and their genes diverging.  Is this a feature of these 
mental mechanisms being partly activated?  (Like there is a partial 
activation of the capture-bonding mechanisms in BDSM.)

>Racism and group think also play major roles. These weird
>theories are propagated through 'feedback loops' which Shermer
>explains by using the witch hunts as an example. Numerous other
>feedback loops have been created recently. The media (especially now
>with information being so easily exchanged on a national and global
>basis) has been a major player in starting and defusing these loops.
>
>Note: The latest edition includes a new chapter on why *smart* people
>believe weird things.

Being smart doesn't protect you from being a drug addict either.

Keith Henson

>Video talk here, if you can't get the book
><http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/22>




From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Mon Oct  8 16:06:34 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:06:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
Message-ID: <BDD20B8C-0635-4810-8AF4-975BD6A16AEC@mac.com>

Henrique,

I think the idea of not using the word "atheist" is mainly strategic,  
since it is proving very hard to convince many people who hate the  
term "atheist" (who have built a mighty perceptual filter against the  
term) to seriously pay attention to your arguments, much less become  
"atheists" themselves, if they associate your person with a (yuck!)  
lowly ignorant unenglightened "atheist" ("I know God is there because  
I've felt him... he doesn't, and he'll never understand... he's an  
ATHEIST, for god's sakes!!!", they tend to think).  Because of the  
stigma associated with the word, they take "atheists" themselves as a  
crazy cult, (while, however, it is no problem to *use* the word  
presuasively, like Harris does, in order to help a believer  
understand the point that "we're all atheists with respect to Thor;  
or to any of today's religions' gods, from the perspective of another  
religion"). So, what he's proposing is not using any specific word to  
label yourself in this regard, while you fight silly ideas where you  
find them, simply appealing to words like "reason", "logic",  
"evidence" or "intellectual honesty". If you need a label, maybe you  
can use the term "rationalist" instead (or others you may prefer),  
which is harder for anyone to argue against or immediately feel  
horrified about.

So, I don't think you would be "in the closet" for avoiding the word  
"atheist" (and you will still not feel insulted if someone calls you  
an "atheist", obviously), since you can still argue that you don't  
believe in any personal or even creator god. But you can explain that  
the word doesn't make much sense, it's a pretty useless term - the  
burden of proof (for god's alleged existence) is more on your  
opponent and vis outrageous, lofty, miraculous claims, and they have  
no "proof" for any of this nonsense (except for the grand unified  
theory of intelligent design, of course...  "faith" -irrational blind  
belief- in ancient books of religious fiction is not proof of  
anything and, as much as they hate to hear it, they know it is so). I  
don't go around with a label for being a "non-baseball-fan" since,  
for me, "baseball doesn't exist" (I no longer live in the US). If  
your claim is that X doesn't exist (in our case god) you really  
shouldn't need to label yourself an a-Xer. Even if something exists  
you don't need to label yourself as a non-something. While you can be  
an astrologer, the term non-astrologer sounds silly. Now I wonder why  
the term "non-believer" sounds so natural, so "everyday"... it should  
sound just as weird.  Also, you can say someone is being irrational  
(about something), but you don't define someone as "an irrational".  
Or as an "acook".

If you're a gay activist (in most places - everyone knows there's no  
gays in Iran by now...) you can just argue for human rights, and  
equal rights for all men and women (gay or otherwise). And I guess  
the main reason some gay people stay "in the closet" (something more  
uncommon every day in free societies, you must admit) is mainly due  
to social pressure/stigma (our stupid backwards societies/religions  
corner these people, quite literally, into a closet). A small but  
very significant percentage of the population is most obviously  
inclined to not be "straight", by nature.  So, there is a  
difference.  It doesn't make much sense for a homosexual man to argue  
against the label, I guess, since the definition of homosexual is,  
pretty much, a man who likes men, romantically/sexually (and if one  
feels that way, one should of course fight for his basic rights to  
express this and live his life as he pleases, and a free -albeit  
backwards- society will, eventually, have to accept it). But the  
definition of "atheist" as a label for a person is based on the  
proposed existence or claim of a "god" or "gods". If your claim is  
that there are no god or gods to be found anywhere, no clear evidence  
whatsoever for them, then you're a rationalist, or a realist, or  
whatever. After all, you have a right to insist that you don't like  
being defined by a word with theological implications!!  (since  
religion is, after all, "the root of all evil")   ;-)

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero


On Oct 8, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado (oplnk) wrote:

> Important theme. However I strongly disagree with Mr Harris in one  
> thing.
> Basically he's saying to atheists in general to get in the closet.  
> I don't
> think we should lie or hide anything. We should state clearly our  
> position.
> To prove my point, let me suggest an exercise. Suppose you're a gay  
> activist
> fighting for the rights of homossexuals. Now take Sam's text and  
> replace the
> words "atheist", "humanist", "secularist" etc by "gay",  
> "homosexual", etc.
> How would you feel about his speech now?
> Let's NOT get in the closet.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sergio M.L. Tarrero
> To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List ;
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:52 PM
> Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
>
> A transcript of Sam Harris' recent (controversial) speech at the  
> Atheist
> Alliance Conference is now available on the Washington Post /
> Newsweekwebsite.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Oct  8 16:09:58 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:09:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Importance of Clear Writing
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710080909y7bfe763byf5897049f8676041@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Lee Corbin <lcorbin at rawbw.com> wrote:

> But is it really necessary to try to *communicate* that way?
> Why can't you try writing without all the potential ambiguity?
> I hope that you're not afraid of appearing dumb just because
> your writing is transparent.

No, I'm not concerned that I'd appear stupid if my writing were more
concrete and simpler to unpack.

My writing on these forums tends to be abstract and metaphorical to a
fault.  The reason is simple:  I'm trying to convey big pictures, but
with very limited bandwidth.

By bandwidth, I mean the bandwidth of the medium of email discussion
lists, constrained by the communication channel as well as human
attention, and my own personal bottleneck due to most of my available
resources going to my business, my studies, and my relationship with
Lizbeth.

But I persist in monitoring and occasionally engaging in this and
other forums; the payoff being some very rewarding offlist contacts
and relationships; the payment being the Pareto  problem of dealing
with the 80% (or more) that is crap.

If you'd like to continue this thread (never mind the aborted thread
about the failings of lower-dimensional models of social
decision-making) I'd be interested in your thoughts as to the
possibility that you habitually approach these discussions as if they
were chess games, thus your apparent tactics of disruption, isolation,
misdirection and so on.

- Jef


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 16:29:43 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:29:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Take Off List (Re: Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710080929p37b45533m87d78119b1ceb41e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
>
>  Is there anyone beside Max and me who would like to see this thread be
> taken off list?
>


I do. I do not even remember what the connection with H+ was, but for sure
it was entirely lost many msgs ago...

Stefano Vaj
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Oct  8 16:52:52 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:52:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710080952r241f08cam928c84164013d443@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/8/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> > he changed his mind. He stopped the antipsychotics, and the conspiracy
> > came back. Then he went back on the antipsychotics and the conspiracy
> > went away again. Presented as an extra piece of empirical data to do
> > with as you please.
>
> There's a scientific approach.  What if I told you I put an
> unrepentant atheist on antipsychotics and they found god, then they
> stopped taking drugs to chemically alter their thinking and went back
> to being an atheist.  That's proof, right?
>
> Proof that this argument makes no sense.

Mike, is your argument based on "anti-psychotic medication" simply as
"a mind-altering substance", or are you considering the mass of
evidence associated with anti-psychotic medications showing its
pro-rational effects, or [other]?

Probability mass must sum to unity.

- Jef


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 17:05:22 2007
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:05:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Take Off List (Re: Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps)
In-Reply-To: <200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710021404m10419b72t510b9da3182705d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<749D1696-EF0E-4011-A8D9-F30417BCB70C@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710071548l485f4ce9ge85a8458eb0f3805@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710072317.l97NH10e028113@ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <29666bf30710081005o543572d4rcb06dbb1d2e857fa@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/07, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> Is there anyone beside Max and me who would like to see this thread be taken
> off list?

Did that make us early responders "premature anti-fascists"**?  ;-)

If so, yes, I'm done.

PJ

** the label used by the US government in the 1940s and 50s for the
Americans who fought in the Spanish Civil War with the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade to fight fascism.  Distrusted for their premature beliefs and
their links to communism, they were sidelined during WWII and
persecuted during McCarthyism.


From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Mon Oct  8 17:16:59 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:16:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <D3ED72C4-2699-421C-A2CC-8F3A40B70FF8@mac.com>


On Oct 5, 2007, at 12:42 AM, hkhenson wrote:

> At 01:56 AM 10/4/2007, BillK wrote:
>> On 10/3/07, hkhenson wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>  Of course even understanding the problem may not lead to a  
>>> solution.  And
>>> it may be that the explanation is too bitter a pill.
>>>
>>>  If anyone has a way to get Sam Harris' attention, please let me  
>>> know.
>>>
>> He is making the case that all religions are not equal and the Muslim
>> religion is much more likely to produce jihadist murderers than other
>> religions.
>> So there is also a specific Muslim problem to deal with.
>
> I would disagree with him there.  *All* religions can inspire
> warriors to jump up and down and yell "kill, kill."  That's the
> evolved *function* of religions and if one has drifted away from its
> function, it can jolly well swim back as needed.  Remember the  
> crusades!

I don't think you'll find many jains jumping up and down yelling  
"kill, kill". I do think the specific set of memes found in a given  
religion, and how seriously (and literally) hosts take these ideas  
and the strategies the religion proposes to enhance its survival or  
growth, to make a difference.

You may find jains ganging up to defend themselves, maybe. In the  
case of islam, though, there is a level of unprovoked belligerance  
and constant need to expand the "house of allah" (until the whole  
world is converted or destroyed) that you simply don't find in other  
creeds.

I would also venture that a religion (and certainly some of its  
offshoots) may lose its evolutionary function until it's  
unrecognizable (and even unrecoverable).

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Oct  8 17:24:59 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:24:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at CINUM 2007 - Digital Civilizations
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520710080714pba63a10ye51060968819f97c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <470a3c520710080714pba63a10ye51060968819f97c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710081024w523c1adfu6b7ce03e76a7f1d2@mail.gmail.com>

Giulio, I just want to say thanks for this and your other reports.  I
frequently disagree with aspects of your interpretations and
formulations but I always appreciate your efforts and intentions
toward a better future.

- Jef

[Meta: This is an example of appropriate top-quoting, in my opinion.]

----------------------------

On 10/8/07, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <pgptag at gmail.com> wrote:
> My report:
>
> http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/cinum_2007_digital_civilizations/


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 18:46:57 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:46:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710080952r241f08cam928c84164013d443@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710080952r241f08cam928c84164013d443@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710081146i43595e96vaf0c46f5910ff5d9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Jef Allbright <jef at jefallbright.net> wrote:
> Mike, is your argument based on "anti-psychotic medication" simply as
> "a mind-altering substance", or are you considering the mass of
> evidence associated with anti-psychotic medications showing its
> pro-rational effects, or [other]?
>
> Probability mass must sum to unity.

Actually, my argument is based on a knee-jerk reaction due to Stathis'
factoid presented as 'evidence.'

To answer your question: both.  I doubt medication was given without
any reinforcement suggestion (which would cloud the issue of whether
it is the medication that produces more rational thinking, or the
medication lowers one's ability to ignore the suggestion to
'normative' thinking.)

If we have a difference of opinion and I buy you a two martini lunch
while I make my case, there is a good chance you will be more
"reasonable" or "rational" because you start to see things my way.
That does not make a case for alcohol being a 'pro-rational' drug.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Oct  8 19:07:23 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:07:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>

At 07:01 AM 10/8/2007, you wrote:
>On 10/8/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> > he changed his mind. He stopped the antipsychotics, and the conspiracy
> > came back. Then he went back on the antipsychotics and the conspiracy
> > went away again. Presented as an extra piece of empirical data to do
> > with as you please.

Interesting observation which fits in with evolved behavior switch concepts.

>There's a scientific approach.  What if I told you I put an
>unrepentant atheist on antipsychotics and they found god, then they
>stopped taking drugs to chemically alter their thinking and went back
>to being an atheist.

I would find that remarkable.  Perhaps not impossible, but if it were 
shown to get a common phenomena it would take a lot of thinking to 
come up with a way to account for it.

>That's proof, right?

It wasn't presented as proof, just an interesting observation.  It 
would be most interesting to do a study about the effect of 
antipsychotics on irrational beliefs.

snip

Keith Henson



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 19:10:49 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:10:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <20071008001140.GO1016@vt11.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
	<580930c20710071629l2c2b48cdn70625c06f0436723@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071008001140.GO1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <580930c20710081210v52478fefm685719b159761c53@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Jordan Hazen <jnh at vt11.net> wrote:
> Have you read Chapter 9 of Tarpley's book, regarding the coded "Angel
> is Next" message to Air Force One?  Although this line of argument
> involves some speculation, it does fit well with Bush's otherwise very
> unusual behavior on the day of the attacks.

No, but it sounds interesting, and I will.

Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 19:13:40 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:13:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 08/10/2007, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
>
> > There is stupid and then there is Mega Stupid, and that particular
> > conspiracy theory is Mega Stupid! And it's not like I'm the champion for
> the
> > status quo, I defy you to find anyone on this list who has written more
> or
> > better anti government screeds than me! But as angry as I got I never
> > became completely insane (OK maybe a little but not completely).
>
> I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> he changed his mind.
>

"Conspiracy theorist" being defined as an "Al-Qaeda conspiracy theorist" or
a "Bush administration conspiracy theorist"?

Or does it work with both? :-)

Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 19:27:49 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:27:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710081227y2a2d1d2cxb62703b5b023844c@mail.gmail.com>

To put it very simply: a reasonable doubt is sufficient to consider
that one did not make one's case. If the doubt is more than
reasonable, i.e., it is not only reasonable but plausible or even
compelling, this is of course also true.

If any possible doubt is less than reasonable, it does not count,
because the case has been proved beyond the threshold of "reasonable".

Accordingly, if the official version for 9/11 bears the burden of
proof, the existence of one or more reasonable doubts, even
inconsistent amongst them, makes it unproved.

On 10/8/07, Randall Randall <randall at randallsquared.com> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:46 AM, John K Clark wrote:
> > Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
> >> to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.
> >
> > More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the evidence is good
> > enough right
> > now to put American citizens in gas chambers for this phantom
> > conspiracy.
>
> I think you misunderstand that phrase.  As usually
> used, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means *less* than
> a reasonable doubt, not more than.
>
> --
> Randall Randall <randall at randallsquared.com>
> "If I can do it in Alabama, then I'm fairly certain you
>   can get away with it anywhere." -- Dresden Codak
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 19:53:09 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:53:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710081253r66531246k806d28b0cfa58cc7@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, hkhenson wrote:
<snip>
> It wasn't presented as proof, just an interesting observation.  It
> would be most interesting to do a study about the effect of
> antipsychotics on irrational beliefs.
>

Done already.

I am not a medical professional, but Stathis can probably correct
where necessary. :)

The use of anti psychotic drugs has been widely studied and tested.
They are drugs - they have to be tested.  But the range of mental
illness is very wide. Schizophrenia is one of the most disabling forms
of mental illness.

But *non-bizarre* irrational beliefs on their own, without any of the
other symptoms of schizophrenia, come under the heading of Delusional
Disorder.

<http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/delusional.html>
<http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/delusional_disorder.htm>
Quote:
Delusional disorder refers to a condition associated with one or more
non-bizarre delusions of thinking?such as expressing beliefs that
occur in real life such as being followed, being poisoned, being loved
or deceived, or having an illness, provided no other symptoms of
schizophrenia are exhibited.
Delusions may seem believable at face value, and patients may appear
normal as long as an outsider does not touch upon their delusional
themes.
----------------

And, yes, anti psychotic drugs are often very effective in treatment.
But there are problems with long-term use of anti psychotics, so
treatment can get complicated.

BillK


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Mon Oct  8 20:04:57 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:04:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Conspiracy Theory Posts - Take off List
Message-ID: <380-22007101820457839@M2W031.mail2web.com>

Please take your discussion of conspiracy theories off this list unless
they pertain directly to transhumanism and its philosophy of Extropy.

Thank you,

Natasha Vita-More


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Mon Oct  8 20:28:54 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:28:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
Message-ID: <D718F31F-27DE-4BEC-9A1D-9A547DBD9978@mac.com>


On Oct 8, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado (oplnk) wrote:

> Important theme. However I strongly disagree with Mr Harris in one  
> thing.
> Basically he's saying to atheists in general to get in the closet.  
> I don't
> think we should lie or hide anything. We should state clearly our  
> position.
> To prove my point, let me suggest an exercise. Suppose you're a gay  
> activist
> fighting for the rights of homossexuals. Now take Sam's text and  
> replace the
> words "atheist", "humanist", "secularist" etc by "gay",  
> "homosexual", etc.
> How would you feel about his speech now?
> Let's NOT get in the closet.

Appropriate as a follow-up to this issue, Sam Harris has posted an  
additional explanation to his fellow atheists, some of whom have been  
very critical of his talk, for his rationale...

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-my-fellow-atheists/

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Oct  8 20:57:25 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:57:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <D3ED72C4-2699-421C-A2CC-8F3A40B70FF8@mac.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1191423226_42513@S3.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710040156w569ede10k6cff334c8fe160b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191537673_34341@S3.cableone.net>
	<D3ED72C4-2699-421C-A2CC-8F3A40B70FF8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1191876975_66391@S1.cableone.net>

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From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Oct  9 02:31:15 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:31:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com><005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
Message-ID: <02b601c80a1c$d2631510$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:46 AM, John K Clark wrote:

> Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
>> to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.
>
> More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the evidence
> is good enough right now to put American citizens in gas
> chambers for this phantom conspiracy.

It sounds to me that you're jumping pretty far here. No
one is suggesting that anyone be persecuted without a
fair trial.

Far more than wanting anyone to be executed for any
supposed role in 9-11, our vociferous friends here would
prefer an investigation.  Many investigations.  Investigations
day and night.  Investigations 24/7.  

Because investigations---whether they lead anywhere or
not is completely immaterial---provide the best propaganda
and cast the greatest aspersions. Ultimately it's not about
punishing anyone at all, it's about political advantage, and
trying to make political adversaries look bad. 

Lee



From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  9 02:19:13 2007
From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] New Wendy's Add?
In-Reply-To: <200710062222.l96MMawo028329@ms-smtp-05.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <70962.62202.qm@web35609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

At 04:28 PM 10/6/2007, Brent wrote:

  My entire life, I've always enjoyed the lemmings all jumping off a cliff 
type ideas in our culture.
  
The masses following popular behavior toward fatal consequences?!

  The most recent great example I've seen is Wendy's new advertisement 
which can bee seen here:

http://usatoday.feedroom.com/index.jsp?fr_story=aa6b272e936328725aefe9438047471199722917 

My feeling that everyone is jumping in the grave, when something so much 
more could be done, is surely the reason for enjoying all these so much.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
   
  I just finished watching the fantastic Ken Burns documentary, "The War" and it deeply saddens me to consider the statistic that on an average day the United States loses to death roughly 1,000 of it's World War II veterans.  I think all that life experience needs to be saved for a world which rapidly forgets its past and lessons learned the hard way.   
   
  John Grigg  : (

  P.S. If only society could offer the scenario in John Scalzi's novel, "Old Man's War."  Attending the latest Alcor Conference in Scottsdale had me thinking along those lines.   Michael West is something else!
   
   

       
---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct  9 02:50:08 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:50:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
Message-ID: <200710090316.l993Gobx002696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> 
> On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 10:50 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
...
> 
> > 4) normal hijacking handling policy on the militaries part was totally
> > suspended on that day which requires complicity from the top;

This one is easily testable.  All you need to do is find any evidence that
the normal military procedures were suspended on that day.  Has anyone in
the military suggested they received such an order?

> > 5) The Pentagon is designed to withstand most non-nuclear attacks
> > including heavy anti-aircraft batteries that will fire on any non
> > military-id craft aggressively approaching it.   Yet well after we
> > knew we were under attack it was allowed to be hit by a hijacked
> > craft.  This also required a stand down order;... Samantha


Same as above.  Are we being asked to believe that every commander who
received such orders is now covering it?  The US military is having
extraordinary difficulty keeping anything secret in these times of steadily
increasing transparency.  If there were any such orders it would be easy to
find out about them.  Are you theorizing that the entire military command
structure is complicit?

spike







From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Oct  9 03:39:48 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:39:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What is meant here by "fascism"?
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Keith writes

> At 09:29 PM 10/7/2007, Lee wrote:
> 
> > James writes
> > > If you're trying to infer from my post that I only consider America or
> > > Americans to be fascist, that would be totally incorrect.
> > 
> > Glad to hear it. Then you'll join me, I imagine, in noting how
> > strange it is that the word is never used except as a pejorative
> > against certain patriotic (or hyper-patriotic) Americans and
> > their allies. How strange.  Especially since the people in question
> > *never* use the term to describe themselves.
> 
> Of course not.  But by the above definition it applies to groups that
> are facing war or something similar.  About 20 years ago I noted:
> 
>      "Some memes (for example Nazism) are observed to thrive
>      during periods of economic chaos just as diseases flourish in
>      an undernourished population.  Thus it is not much of a surprise
>      that Nazi-related beliefs emerged in the Western farm states 
>      during the recent hard times."

If we do use a "base line" of democracy and democratic
institutions in the West---which is not unreasonable---
then the Weimar Republic and potentially today the U.S.
and other Western nations are logically potentially subject
to the same mechanism.  In other words, yes, it could
happen here too.

But I'm a little perplexed about the part of "western farm
states". Clearly a reference to the United States, it was
apparent that Neo-Nazi activity was stronger in those
states than in, say, New York?  I don't have any memory
of such geographical relatedness.  Can you elaborate?
(Perhaps I've misunderstood you.)

> snip (Fascist as epithet)
> 
> > Let's face it.  It's a code word spoken by liberals/leftists/progressives/
> > collectivists/... (those labels keep evolving at a high rate, but I do
> > think it appropriate to call people by the descriptions they themselves
> > provide).  The code word is used as a signal of solidarity among
> > them to each other---and, equally, as a signal to their adversaries.
> > It's really worse than the <n-word> , because at least the <n-word>
> > is often used among the very targeted people themselves!
> 
> Solidarity is the correct way to put it.

Ha!  That's ironic!  We might then slightly more abstractly consider
all those people who are very prone to use coded political-speak
(i.e. all those people whose political allegiance you can tell from
their vocabulary) as displaying fascist tendencies!

Logically, I suppose, it fits. Signs of such group solidarity would
go hand in hand with elevating the goals of the group, and so would
clear the way towards making sacrifices for the group, up to and
including some people in a democracy persecuting others and
depriving them of their ostensible rights.  I am reminded of those
who on the one hand defend the first amendment and on the other
are eager to shout down all opposing voices, drive them off of
radio stations, and even shut down newpapers (as FDR did). 

> The "bundle" of wood bound up made the point that you could
> break the individual stick but it was much harder to break a
> number of bound up stick or a group of aligned people than
> single sticks or people one at a time.
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fascist
> 
> 1921, from It. partito nazionale fascista, the anti-communist political
> movement organized 1919 under Benito Mussolini...

The following quote is extremely important, I think, in trying
to delineate what "Fascism" means to many people on this
list:

>   "A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation
>    with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by
>    compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a
>    mass-based party of committed....

So far, this would apply to the left as well as the right, but now it
gets interesting:

> nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration
> with traditional elites,

A key factor I'm beginning to think!  Castro can do any number of
things to any number of people, but he's not a fascist simply because
he was never aligned with the traditional elites!

> abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence
> and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and
> external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

Thanks for the quote.

> Which is just what you would expect from a stone age tribe about to
> go to war because times are looking bleak.

Well, yes, but I would say not *exclusively* because times are looking
bleak. An attitude marked by "obsessive preoccupation with 
community decline, humiliation or victimhood"  would apply to 
black militants and reactionary conservatives. 

But notice!  My conjecture is strengthened.  The black militants would
never be called fascists---and it seems to me that the main reason is
that they are not in collusion with traditional elites!

So the epithet "fascism" really revolves around an ancient left/right
split ever since the French Revolution.  Any lamentable activity
(again from the standard of Western democracy and Western
principles) that is allied with older elites can be called "fascist".
The name-calling (again, no current group embraces the label)
has the practical effect of making lamentable activies by leftists
less visible.

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Tue Oct  9 03:50:26 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 20:50:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Importance of Clear Writing
References: <f7bfe5740710080909y7bfe763byf5897049f8676041@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02e101c80a28$06cbac80$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Jef writes


>> But is it really necessary to try to *communicate* that way?
>> Why can't you try writing without all the potential ambiguity?
>> I hope that you're not afraid of appearing dumb just because
>> your writing is transparent.
> 
> No, I'm not concerned that I'd appear stupid if my writing were more
> concrete and simpler to unpack.

Good.

> My writing on these forums tends to be abstract and metaphorical to a
> fault.  The reason is simple:  I'm trying to convey big pictures, but
> with very limited bandwidth.

Oh, that's fine.  But I suppose that you really are trying to communicate
ideas, and not simply engage in a literary art form. If so, then striving
for utter transparency and lucidity will be important to you.

> If you'd like to continue this thread (never mind the aborted thread
> about the failings of lower-dimensional models of social
> decision-making) I'd be interested in your thoughts as to the
> possibility that you habitually approach these discussions as if they
> were chess games, thus your apparent tactics of disruption, isolation,
> misdirection and so on.

I started this thread to be about *communication*.  No, I don't want
to get into an analysis of your psychoanalysis of my "apparent tactics".
I consider all those charges, above, to be silly and completely wrong-
headed.   Of all the crap---to happen to have learned that I play
chess and so therefore am always trying to play games with ideas
with the only goal of *winning*---it's cheap and idiotic, and no
I won't discuss it with you.   For your own exercise, why don't
you carefully read the last email I wrote (just a few minutes ago)
and see if you can determine what kind of game-playing I'm engaged
in there?

"Disruption, isolation, misdirection and so on."  Why don't you add
larceny, lying, and consorting with the devil to your list?   Go ahead,
post more insults, I really don't care.   You only expose your own
foolish tactics of personal assassination to the public.

Lee



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 04:31:41 2007
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:31:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Shall we all take a deep breath and have a giggle?
Message-ID: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.com>

I've noticed that there have been some especially heated discussions
lately on these lists and thought the following might be a useful
intermission, since it appeals to both sides of the fence for their
own reasons:

Jonathan Coulton's "The Future Soon":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhwKseS__kE

Gotta love a guy who can write songs about H+ geeks, evil geniuses,
zombies and self-loathing giant squids.

Enjoy!
PJ


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 04:33:34 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:33:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] UTF8ISO.DLL
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710071039p5dddbeearaf3f5459718b27a8@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191629519_37834@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV398ACFD8336F3C9F6BB5CA3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01bb01c807d0$25e5ac60$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV164B71CA186BBE77243288A3AA0@phx.gbl>
	<01e001c8081f$448626f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710060936l42825ebfl19c9b9ee3630ba45@mail.gmail.com>
	<020a01c80862$864dc500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<f7bfe5740710062345p3cc2e67cm55fa6e248d163d23@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710071001m7e7c90e5ydd62b03fc5d091f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710071039p5dddbeearaf3f5459718b27a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071008232949.021d29e8@satx.rr.com>

At 10:39 AM 10/7/2007 -0700, Jef wrote:

>It turns out that each person experiencing a problem is using Eudora.
>See the following URI for an explanation and a possible fix for
>Eudora's non-compliant rendering of standard utf-8 text.
>
>The symptoms were apparently triggered by my use of the i diaeresis in
>"naive" rather than the "naive" spelling of "naive".
>
><http://www.windharp.de/software/utf8iso.htm>

This might affect others as well, so I'll send it to the list:

Nearly a year ago I copied UTF8ISO.DLL, from that site, to my Eudora 
Plugins folder. Nothing changed. When I look now at the list of 
Message Plug-ins Settings, under the Special dropdown menu, I find it 
listed but with a red cross through a UTF8 icon. Perhaps it's been 
automatically disabled. Wtf?

Damien Broderick 



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct  9 04:35:44 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:35:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Killed thread:  10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <200710090316.l993Gobx002696@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200710090502.l9952RtU010040@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps


>... Are you theorizing that the entire military command
> structure is complicit?
> 
> spike


Apologies, I was away for the weekend, didn't see the request for killthread
until after I had read past the post to which I replied.  Shows to go ya,
when one has been away, one must read everything before posting anything,
ja?  {8-]

spike








From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct  9 06:12:45 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:12:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re:  What is meant here by "fascism"?
In-Reply-To: <02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>

At 08:39 PM 10/8/2007, Lee wrote:
>Keith writes

snip

> > Of course not.  But by the above definition it applies to groups that
> > are facing war or something similar.  About 20 years ago I noted:
> >
> >      "Some memes (for example Nazism) are observed to thrive
> >      during periods of economic chaos just as diseases flourish in
> >      an undernourished population.  Thus it is not much of a surprise
> >      that Nazi-related beliefs emerged in the Western farm states
> >      during the recent hard times."
>
>If we do use a "base line" of democracy and democratic
>institutions in the West---which is not unreasonable---
>then the Weimar Republic and potentially today the U.S.
>and other Western nations are logically potentially subject
>to the same mechanism.  In other words, yes, it could
>happen here too.

Exactly.  And the bleak future, xenophobic meme, war pattern would be 
the same.  The constant element is humans carrying stone age 
psychological baggage.

>But I'm a little perplexed about the part of "western farm
>states". Clearly a reference to the United States, it was
>apparent that Neo-Nazi activity was stronger in those
>states than in, say, New York?  I don't have any memory
>of such geographical relatedness.  Can you elaborate?
>(Perhaps I've misunderstood you.)

No, back in the late 1970 there was a pattern.  Perhaps because the 
economic ups and downs hit the farm states worse than the coast 
cities.  In any case, those areas were the strongholds of Neo-Nazi activity.

snip

> > Which is just what you would expect from a stone age tribe about to
> > go to war because times are looking bleak.
>
>Well, yes, but I would say not *exclusively* because times are looking
>bleak. An attitude marked by "obsessive preoccupation with
>community decline, humiliation or victimhood"  would apply to
>black militants and reactionary conservatives.

Sure, but "community decline, humiliation or victimhood" are 
typically what happens to a group that sees bleak future conditions 
or is under attack.

>But notice!  My conjecture is strengthened.  The black militants would
>never be called fascists---and it seems to me that the main reason is
>that they are not in collusion with traditional elites!

Considering fascism as a typical response to bleak times a-coming, I 
would say that "collusion with traditional elites" is probably 
optional in the run up to war or related.

>So the epithet "fascism" really revolves around an ancient left/right
>split ever since the French Revolution.  Any lamentable activity
>(again from the standard of Western democracy and Western
>principles) that is allied with older elites can be called "fascist".
>The name-calling (again, no current group embraces the label)
>has the practical effect of making lamentable activies by leftists
>less visible.

It really doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum wins 
out.  Come the war you are just as dead.

Keith 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 07:26:38 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 00:26:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>


Keith write:

> The constant element is humans carrying stone age 
> psychological baggage.

If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected computers
running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from our
reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
reprogram these?  I haven't been able to keep up with psychpharmacology;
what's going on to alter the brain chemistry of violent criminals,
terrorists, etc.?  

Thanks,
James Clement



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 09:45:00 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:45:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <BDD20B8C-0635-4810-8AF4-975BD6A16AEC@mac.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
	<BDD20B8C-0635-4810-8AF4-975BD6A16AEC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710090245y1cc598a7m46b7805f1811be4a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/07, Sergio M.L. Tarrero <sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com> wrote:
>  I guess, since the definition of homosexual is,
> pretty much, a man who likes men, romantically/sexually.

No. Actually, it means one that is sexually oriented towards
individuals of the same sex (here "homos" is Greek for "same", as in
"homogeneity" not Latin "homo, hominis" for "man"). One needs not be a
man, nor a human being for that matter. Nor it is necessary that a
homosexual actually like, romantically or otherwise, individuals of
the same sex - exactly as a perfectly heterosexual man can be a
mysoginist.

> If your claim is
> that there are no god or gods to be found anywhere, no clear evidence
> whatsoever for them, then you're a rationalist, or a realist, or
> whatever.

Dawkins and Dennett suggest the word "bright" to define their brand of
(non-)religious approach.

Stefano Vaj


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 10:13:41 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:13:41 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710090313x5665a894ned3612d68a88d33c@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/10/2007, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/8/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> > he changed his mind. He stopped the antipsychotics, and the conspiracy
> > came back. Then he went back on the antipsychotics and the conspiracy
> > went away again. Presented as an extra piece of empirical data to do
> > with as you please.
>
> There's a scientific approach.  What if I told you I put an
> unrepentant atheist on antipsychotics and they found god, then they
> stopped taking drugs to chemically alter their thinking and went back
> to being an atheist.  That's proof, right?

Antipsychotics as a test of delusional thinking have a moderately high
sensitivity (low false negative rate) but a very high specificity (low
false positive rate). If you give them to a well person, all that
happens is that they get side-effects. If you give them to a psychotic
patient, if anything there will be a reverse placebo effect:
delusional patients by definition honestly believe what they claim to
believe, and get annoyed at the suggestion that their thinking might
be symptomatic of an illness that might be altered by medication,
insisting despite any evidence to the contrary that medication has had
no effect or has made them worse. The only way you might get a false
positive is if someone was pretending to be delusional and then
pretended to get better on medication and relapse off medication, for
example a criminal trying for a more lenient sentence.

> Proof that this argument makes no sense.

Fair enough, since even a paranoid person could turn out to be right
(mental illness is about cognitive processes, and only incidentally
about truth out there in the world). But I thought I'd report that
delusions about 9-11 conspiracies are now out there in the psychiatric
population.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 10:25:44 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:25:44 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710081146i43595e96vaf0c46f5910ff5d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710080952r241f08cam928c84164013d443@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710081146i43595e96vaf0c46f5910ff5d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710090325k54560eb1udb575f123553c361@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/10/2007, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To answer your question: both.  I doubt medication was given without
> any reinforcement suggestion (which would cloud the issue of whether
> it is the medication that produces more rational thinking, or the
> medication lowers one's ability to ignore the suggestion to
> 'normative' thinking.)
>
> If we have a difference of opinion and I buy you a two martini lunch
> while I make my case, there is a good chance you will be more
> "reasonable" or "rational" because you start to see things my way.
> That does not make a case for alcohol being a 'pro-rational' drug.

Antipsychotics are not like alcohol. You have to take them
consistently for usually a period of weeks to months before there is
any antipsychotic effect, while side-effects manifest immediately.
Suggestibility has nothing to do with it, as the patients may be
literally violently opposed to any suggestion that they may be
experiencing delusions, or any attempt to give them medication. Even
after their delusions go away they frequently insist that they just
changed their mind - that they were never deluded and the medication
had no role to play. This (and dislike of side-effects) is why they
keep stopping their medications and relapsing.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From alex at ramonsky.com  Tue Oct  9 10:18:30 2007
From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 11:18:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Malicious Mindware for Reality-Enhancers,
 Uploads and visual AIs?
References: <f1d9c15f0710071318s18f3e386k3bb0fa5786229cea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470B5576.6020501@ramonsky.com>

..."Malicious Mindware trying to impose or corrupt your perception of 
Reality?"
...Well there's this light/sound machine, called television...  :  )
Best,
AR
*********

Andres Colon wrote:

> Reality-enhancers (meaning transhumans that will heavily implement 
> Augmented Reality Technology as an enhancement on a daily basis), AI 
> or Uploads could face threats from malicious mindware. These threats 
> could range from minor annoyances (as the prototype you'll soon see) 
> all the way up to some serious threats.
>
> Video link: Malicious Mindware via Augmented Reality 
> <http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/849>
>
> This Thoughtware.TV video introduces you to an installation that 
> explores the notion that our virtual identity could be constantly 
> under threat of attack by a swarm of 'bugs' trying to feed off the 
> fabric of our virtual being.
>
> Thoughtware.TV asks: How will you protect yourself and others from 
> Malicious Mindware trying to impose or corrupt your perception of 
> Reality?
>
> To me these technologies could be so disastrous to our identity, that 
> they could border on what I jokingly consider "sinful software" 
> (sinware)...Its in our best interest as transhumans to take future 
> malware seriously as the technologies we wish to implement and enhance 
> ourselves with approach.
>
> Feel free to share any resources that have considered the idea.
>
> Andr?s,
> Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.tv> - ".. your pool of 
> Transhuman Memes"
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>  
>

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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 10:50:09 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:50:09 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710090350i3541a3a3ic5ba884b289a1eff@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/10/2007, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:

> It wasn't presented as proof, just an interesting observation.  It
> would be most interesting to do a study about the effect of
> antipsychotics on irrational beliefs.

Alas, antipsychotics do not work on all irrational beliefs, only
irrational beliefs due to a mental illness. You can have irrational
beliefs because you're gullible, or because you grew up in a community
where everyone holds those beliefs and medication will do nothing at
all for you. This is noted all the time in people who are treated for
a psychotic illness and incidentally have another belief, which on the
face of it is just as irrational as the newly-developed delusion, but
which they have held for most of their lives.

Occasionally it is difficult to decide if a member of a far-out
religious group is psychotic or not since all of them claim to hear
God speaking to them and so on; but in these cases, the others might
point to the mentally person and declare them to be crazy, or at least
possessed by a nastier than usual breed of demon.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct  9 11:04:57 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:04:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710090245y1cc598a7m46b7805f1811be4a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1101831252530.1101378562372.1738.6.5135501@scheduler>
	<7D4D7C96-D35F-4260-A991-A128AD1587F0@mac.com>
	<1b5c01c809ae$86518cb0$fe00a8c0@cpd01>
	<BDD20B8C-0635-4810-8AF4-975BD6A16AEC@mac.com>
	<580930c20710090245y1cc598a7m46b7805f1811be4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F0BB5AE5-CE3F-4BE1-BA5D-2593A104373F@mac.com>


On Oct 9, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 10/8/07, Sergio M.L. Tarrero <sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com> wrote:
>>  I guess, since the definition of homosexual is,
>> pretty much, a man who likes men, romantically/sexually.
>
> No. Actually, it means one that is sexually oriented towards
> individuals of the same sex (here "homos" is Greek for "same", as in
> "homogeneity" not Latin "homo, hominis" for "man"). One needs not be a
> man, nor a human being for that matter. Nor it is necessary that a
> homosexual actually like, romantically or otherwise, individuals of
> the same sex - exactly as a perfectly heterosexual man can be a
> mysoginist.
>
Absolutely. Of course. My bad.

>> If your claim is
>> that there are no god or gods to be found anywhere, no clear evidence
>> whatsoever for them, then you're a rationalist, or a realist, or
>> whatever.
>
> Dawkins and Dennett suggest the word "bright" to define their brand of
> (non-)religious approach.

Yes. And maybe "super" for the superstitious, Dennett suggests ('or  
whatever they wanna call themselves'). This has not been very well  
received, I don't think it's gonna catch on.
>
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:06:55 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:06:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Today's Dilbert
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710090406y49ee3054l51af9a31c54b3054@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071009.html

Anybody here identify with today's cartoon?

Oh, everybody!  OK, right on!


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:09:31 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:09:31 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710090409u4733e3a4w99d9acdd556d6724@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/10/2007, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I put a September 11 conspiracy theorist on antipsychotics once, and
> > he changed his mind.
> >
>
> "Conspiracy theorist" being defined as an "Al-Qaeda conspiracy theorist" or
> a "Bush administration conspiracy theorist"?
>
> Or does it work with both? :-)

He was a Bush administration conspiracy theorist, but I guess it would
work with both. The striking thing in this case was that he could,
quite reasonably, point out that many people around the world share
his beliefs. At this point, there would have been no indication to
diagnose a mental illness. However, he became increasingly preoccupied
with proving his theory to the point where he was neglecting his work
and his family, and eventually started thinking that the Americans
might try to kill him because he knew too much. It was at this point
that treatment was started, but the treatment had the effect that even
the more "normal" beliefs became greatly attenuated, thus proving that
they were part of a psychotic illness.

The point is, psychotic illnesses screw up your thinking so that you
are more likely to arrive at a false belief. A belief that changes
with antipsychotic medication is therefore a belief that was arrived
at due to a psychotic illness, hence a delusional belief (because
antipsychotics make no difference to normal reasoning). But just as a
belief arrived at through normal reasoning can be false, so a belief
that was arrived at through delusional thinking could turn out to be
true. It's just that the delusional belief is statistically less
likely to be true.






-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:31:13 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:31:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710081253r66531246k806d28b0cfa58cc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710081253r66531246k806d28b0cfa58cc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710090431h7f9d7a87pff87e9d99431601d@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/10/2007, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> But *non-bizarre* irrational beliefs on their own, without any of the
> other symptoms of schizophrenia, come under the heading of Delusional
> Disorder.
>
> <http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/delusional.html>
> <http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/delusional_disorder.htm>
> Quote:
> Delusional disorder refers to a condition associated with one or more
> non-bizarre delusions of thinking?such as expressing beliefs that
> occur in real life such as being followed, being poisoned, being loved
> or deceived, or having an illness, provided no other symptoms of
> schizophrenia are exhibited.
> Delusions may seem believable at face value, and patients may appear
> normal as long as an outsider does not touch upon their delusional
> themes.

True, but in practice it is almost always obvious even to a layperson
that the delusional belief is delusional. The best single test of a
delusion (other than a trial of antipsychotic)  is to put yourself in
the patient's shoes and ask, Could I believe the same things given his
background and experience?

The other comment about subtypes of psychotic illnesses is that we
don't really have a test which can be used to show that these are
pathologically distinct entities. Different patterns are recognised,
but they all appear to merge seamlessly at the edges: delusional
disorder with paranoid schizophrenia, schizophrenia with
schizoaffective disorder, schizoaffective disorder with bipolar
disorder. The multiple genes implicated in each subtype overlap, and a
family history of one predisposes to all of the others. Moreover, they
all respond in much the same way to antipsychotic medication. Thus, it
may turn out that there is only one psychotic illness with different
symptoms in different cases.

> And, yes, anti psychotic drugs are often very effective in treatment.
> But there are problems with long-term use of anti psychotics, so
> treatment can get complicated.

True.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct  9 12:12:55 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:12:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: New Article in the LA Times
References: <1101838194108.1101378562372.1738.6.5032501@scheduler>
Message-ID: <A97CDC97-715B-4DA3-AFB1-AADFEAD9AEB3@mac.com>



Begin forwarded message:

> Sam Harris and Salman Rushdie have jointly published an op-ed in  
> today'sLos Angeles Times in support of Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
>
> Ayaan Hirsi Ali: abandoned to fanatics

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Oct  9 14:22:21 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:22:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Shall we all take a deep breath and have a giggle?
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710091422.l99EMO4o013184@ms-smtp-05.texas.rr.com>

At 11:31 PM 10/8/2007, PJ Manney wrote:
>I've noticed that there have been some especially heated discussions
>lately on these lists and thought the following might be a useful
>intermission, since it appeals to both sides of the fence for their
>own reasons:
>
>Jonathan Coulton's "The Future Soon":
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhwKseS__kE

Great one!  But I have to say I still love 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwTZ2xpQwpA
to lift my spirits :-)


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, Centre for 
Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Oct  9 14:32:27 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:32:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Today's Dilbert
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710090406y49ee3054l51af9a31c54b3054@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710090406y49ee3054l51af9a31c54b3054@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710090732r3d4d2o29f4f201eb360ecc@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/07, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071009.html
>
> Anybody here identify with today's cartoon?
>
> Oh, everybody!  OK, right on!

Thanks BillK.  While petty primate infighting over issues of status is
always ongoing, might the apparent recent surge on this and other H+
related groups be indicative of a decline in focus on external
objectives?   Is there a sense of direction or progress in the
transhumanist/singularitarian/AGI/Futurist/Extropian communities?  I
think there was...

- Jef


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct  9 15:30:50 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:30:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>

At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:

>Keith write:
>
> > The constant element is humans carrying stone age
> > psychological baggage.
>
>If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected computers
>running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from our
>reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
>reprogram these?

You should approach the subject "override or reprogram" with *great* 
caution.  Perhaps some of these long evolved psychological mechanisms 
are useless in the present world, but then again you can't be sure 
and you certainly can't be sure what the future holds.

Take the trait of fighting with great vigor when attacked, or by 
extension when a group sees that it will be attacked, or by even more 
of an extension when a group sees that it is attack neighbors or 
starve next winter.  Rather than edit out these traits, I would try 
to keep them turned off.  Long term this means population growth at 
or below economic growth.  For some cultures birth control has worked 
and for others not.  The places where it has not already are or will 
be problems.

>I haven't been able to keep up with psychpharmacology;
>what's going on to alter the brain chemistry of violent criminals,
>terrorists, etc.?

Virtually nothing.  The problems are not well understood at the brain 
chemistry level.  If they were drug addiction would be a thing of the 
past.  A scientific understanding will be based on evolutionary 
psychology, and that depends on evolution.  At least in the US, 
sensible policy that is based on evolution is politically unlikely.

I may have more to say about this later.

Keith Henson



From rpwl at lightlink.com  Tue Oct  9 16:23:54 2007
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:23:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <02b601c80a1c$d2631510$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com><005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
	<02b601c80a1c$d2631510$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <470BAB1A.1020008@lightlink.com>

Lee Corbin wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:46 AM, John K Clark wrote:
> 
>> Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com>
>>> to think that a more than reasonable doubt exists.
>> More than a reasonable doubt? So you think the evidence
>> is good enough right now to put American citizens in gas
>> chambers for this phantom conspiracy.
> 
> It sounds to me that you're jumping pretty far here. No
> one is suggesting that anyone be persecuted without a
> fair trial.
> 
> Far more than wanting anyone to be executed for any
> supposed role in 9-11, our vociferous friends here would
> prefer an investigation.  Many investigations.  Investigations
> day and night.  Investigations 24/7.  
> 
> Because investigations---whether they lead anywhere or
> not is completely immaterial---provide the best propaganda
> and cast the greatest aspersions. Ultimately it's not about
> punishing anyone at all, it's about political advantage, and
> trying to make political adversaries look bad. 

The above quote is being wrongly attributed to me:  John Clark made the 
initial editing mistake.  It was originally said by Stefano Vaj.

I do agree with Stefano's point, however.

As for your comments:  it looks like this thread, with John Clark's 
enthusiastic assistance, has degenerated into a political mudslinging 
episode, with no relevance to this list.




Richard Loosemore


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 17:01:09 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:01:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP
Message-ID: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>


At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:

>If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected
computers
>running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from our
>reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
>reprogram these?

This a topic of great interest to me.  The inherited reptilian program is
dangerous in many environments.  One decidedly noticeable environment is
when humans interface with machines, especially automobiles.  If you
sharpen your focus onto the body language and facial expression of drivers,
it is exceedingly apparent that they perform like tightly wound aggressors
vying for position, as if the urgency of their need entitles them to make
abrupt and savage behavior.

Of course it is necessary to have internal and external warning systems but
I think that humanity cannot overcome many of our current foibles unless
and until we manage the hyperemotional disarray our inheritance and enhance
our sensory awareness.

I remember back in the late 1960s when Maharishi suggested that if 10% of
humanity repeated a "Om" mantra, that there would be a rise in
consciousness for all.  I feel quite deeply that the consciousness of
humanity can only be raised if we engineer our brains.  More on this if
anyone is interested, but I think my paper "Wisdom through AGI / Neural
Macrosensing" says it fairly clearly.

Natasha



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider -
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange




From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 19:01:47 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:01:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV11308F0FD114E555A4F584A3A50@phx.gbl>

Natasha;


Howard Bloom wrote an excellent book, titled "The Lucifer Principle: A
Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History," in which he describes
many of these inherited mental mechanisms.  I found his description of how
"Pecking Order" works in other species and in humans very informative.  His
theory, which I'm not certain I accept," is that you have to be careful
about helping downtrodden groups, since the higher up you are in the Pecking
Order, the more they desire to be #1.  All in all, however, a very
interesting book, which I highly recommend.

http://www.amazon.com/Lucifer-Principle-Scientific-Expedition-History/dp/087
1136643/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7291230-7455224?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191956514&sr=8
-2


Best regards,
James Clement



From jonkc at att.net  Tue Oct  9 19:54:50 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:54:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com><005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com><02b601c80a1c$d2631510$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<470BAB1A.1020008@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <003201c80aae$4e149c60$e7024e0c@MyComputer>

"Richard Loosemore" <rpwl at lightlink.com>

> John Clark made the initial editing mistake.

I made no such mistake.

 > It was originally said by Stefano Vaj.

Yes I know, as I made very clear in my post.

> I do agree with Stefano's point, however.

So you also think you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Americans
were involved in the 911 mass murder. You realize I hope that if you can 
really do that then you can send someone to the gas chamber. 
But no doubt the proof is similar to the one about my attribution "error". 
And that's what makes this crap not only idiotic but scary.

 John K Clark





From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Tue Oct  9 20:31:48 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:31:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Today's Dilbert
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710090732r3d4d2o29f4f201eb360ecc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710090406y49ee3054l51af9a31c54b3054@mail.gmail.com>
	<f7bfe5740710090732r3d4d2o29f4f201eb360ecc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8B05EE2C-E264-45FC-8DBC-28CAD9FA8075@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 9, 2007, at 7:32 AM, Jef Allbright wrote:
> While petty primate infighting over issues of status is
> always ongoing, might the apparent recent surge on this and other H+
> related groups be indicative of a decline in focus on external
> objectives?   Is there a sense of direction or progress in the
> transhumanist/singularitarian/AGI/Futurist/Extropian communities?  I
> think there was...


Individuals with a focus on external objectives do not have time to  
participate in primate mailing list games, so there is a selection  
effect.  People doing don't have much time for the people talking and  
no time at all for the people engaged in petty arguments.

This is the problem with mailing lists.  Those with something worth  
saying rarely have time to say it.

J. Andrew Rogers



From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 22:04:54 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:04:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200710091704.54891.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Tuesday 09 October 2007 12:01, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:
> > If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected
> > computers running many programs and subroutines, most of which are
> > inherited from our reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can
> > we do to override or reprogram these?  
>
> This a topic of great interest to me. 
(since you pointed out that subsection)

I am reminded of the following scene in Neverness:
> "We should all know the code of our metaprograms," he said. "Otherwise
> we can never be free." 

- Bryan


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct  9 22:06:53 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:06:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200710291719180@M2W032.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <1191967542_35565@S3.cableone.net>

At 10:01 AM 10/9/2007, you wrote:

>At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:
>
> >If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected
>computers
> >running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from our
> >reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
> >reprogram these?
>
>This a topic of great interest to me.  The inherited reptilian program is
>dangerous in many environments.

Our line parted ways with the reptiles a *long* time 
ago.  Psychological traits that were not conducive to reproductive 
success in the last few million years when our ancestors lived as 
hunter gatherers would have been bred out of the line.  (Keeping in 
mind "inclusive fitness.")

>One decidedly noticeable environment is
>when humans interface with machines, especially automobiles.  If you
>sharpen your focus onto the body language and facial expression of drivers,
>it is exceedingly apparent that they perform like tightly wound aggressors
>vying for position, as if the urgency of their need entitles them to make
>abrupt and savage behavior.

I have not noticed this, but I seldom concentrate on the drivers 
inside.  It has been my experience that most of the time people are 
fairly cooperative in traffic.  There may be wide variations 
depending on the geographic location though.  But given that your 
observations and inferences of the internal state of drivers are 
correct, how was it that genes that contributed to this behavior 
contributed to reproductive success in the lives of our ancestors?

>Of course it is necessary to have internal and external warning systems but
>I think that humanity cannot overcome many of our current foibles unless
>and until we manage the hyperemotional disarray our inheritance and enhance
>our sensory awareness.

I see your point.  I don't think we are going to get far with either 
unless we understand at least the evolutionary origin of our 
psychological traits and perhaps it will take understanding even the 
circuit wiring.

However, consider "hyper emotional disarray [of?] our 
inheritance."  Whatever emotional traits we have come from 
selection.  They are not likely to be in disarray in the environment 
of evolutionary adaptiveness  (EEA), at least when considered from 
the viewpoint of the genes that construct our emotional circuits.  If 
they are in disarray today, it's because the environment (material 
and memetic culture) has changed and genes have not kept up.  How has 
culture changed?  Is the change permanent?  If we could, what changes 
should we make in these traits?  (We will have the ability to do it 
soon, so thinking about this might be rather useful.)

"[A]nd enhance our sensory awareness."  We are not aware or conscious 
of everything that goes on.  Why?  I suspect awareness is a limited 
and precious mental resource.  We probably have a lot of hardwired 
circuits to focus it on matters of pressing importance, and I think 
there are mental illness states involving awareness.  If we were to 
enhance our sensory awareness, what would it take?  What might it 
cost in terms of other mental features?

>I remember back in the late 1960s when Maharishi suggested that if 10% of
>humanity repeated a "Om" mantra, that there would be a rise in
>consciousness for all.  I feel quite deeply that the consciousness of
>humanity can only be raised if we engineer our brains.

An analogy that might help is that we have engineered our immune 
systems since the invention of inoculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inoculation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination

You could say that education is brain engineering in the same 
sense.  However, while cowpox really does confer immunity to 
smallpox, I know of no such programs (even "critical thinking") that 
have been shown in a scientific test to confer immunity to cults or 
other kinds of irrational thinking.  If anyone has an idea of how 
such a program could be designed *and* tested, I would be *most* 
interested.  If you want to know why testing is so important, read 
the criticisms section here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.A.R.E.

>More on this if
>anyone is interested, but I think my paper "Wisdom through AGI / Neural
>Macrosensing" says it fairly clearly.

Is there a text version or a recording of your talk?

Keith Henson 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 22:30:12 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:30:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-sufficient space habitat designed
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009172624.02195b90@satx.rr.com>

fwiw:

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1646


SYDNEY: Australian-led scientists have designed a new space habitat 
that might one day allow astronauts on the Moon or Mars to be 90 to 
95 per cent self-sufficient.

The development of such as system could save billions of dollars in 
shuttle trips to re-supply lunar or space colonies and brings closer 
the vision of a human habitat on Mars.

The technology could also have applications on Earth to develop more 
sustainable farming techniques and improve recycling processes.

Luna Gaia

Some systems to recycle water and air have already been developed and 
rudimentary versions are presently used in the International Space 
Station (ISS). However, the proposed new lunar habitat "combines our 
existing knowledge" of physical, chemical and biological processes to 
provide an "overall picture of how a minibiosphere would work," said 
James Chartres, aerospace engineer at the University of Adelaide in 
South Australia. He gave a talk detailing the design at the 
Australian Space Science Conference held in Sydney last month.
[etc etc]

======================

Btw, does the hazy light around the spots in the illustration imply 
that they have a lot of air escaping? Or is the artist emulating an 
effect produced by (1) the eye, or (b) photon scattering on film or 
digital recorder?

Damien Broderick 



From kanzure at gmail.com  Tue Oct  9 22:49:57 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:49:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-sufficient space habitat designed
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009172624.02195b90@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009172624.02195b90@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200710091749.57774.kanzure@gmail.com>


Can anybody get us the schematics / blueprints of this design? Otherwise 
I think we would all have to admit that it doesn't matter because it's 
inaccessible.

- Bryan
(off to go ask the AR mailing list)


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Tue Oct  9 23:03:06 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:03:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] EP
Message-ID: <380-2200710292336676@M2W029.mail2web.com>


At 10:01 AM 10/9/2007, Keith wrote:

>At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:
> >If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected
>computers
> >running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from
our
> >reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
> >reprogram these?

Natasha wrote:
>This a topic of great interest to me.  The inherited reptilian program is
>dangerous in many environments.

"Our line parted ways with the reptiles a *long* time 
ago.  

My line has its amygdalae.

"Psychological traits that were not conducive to reproductive 
success in the last few million years when our ancestors lived as 
hunter gatherers would have been bred out of the line.  (Keeping in 
mind 'inclusive fitness.')"

http://www.archetypediscoveriesworldwide.com/threebrains.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/interviews/rapaille
.html
http://www.2012.com.au/reptilian_brain.html

>One decidedly noticeable environment is
>when humans interface with machines, especially automobiles.  If you
>sharpen your focus onto the body language and facial expression of drivers,
>it is exceedingly apparent that they perform like tightly wound aggressors
>vying for position, as if the urgency of their need entitles them to make
>abrupt and savage behavior.

"I have not noticed this, but I seldom concentrate on the drivers 
inside.  It has been my experience that most of the time people are 
fairly cooperative in traffic.  There may be wide variations 
depending on the geographic location though.  But given that your 
observations and inferences of the internal state of drivers are 
correct, how was it that genes that contributed to this behavior 
contributed to reproductive success in the lives of our ancestors?"

I don't know, genetics is not my expertise.  But it's competitive
aggression to get ahead of the other guy for getting the food or survival.
Getting ahead is not determined by the destination but more from the
physical relationship of position and speed.

I watch behaviors in a lot of environments.  Airports are good too -
watching how people come and go and the relationships of people getting on
and off planes, etc.  Grocery stores are also quite fascinating, especially
in different countries and cultures.  (Communications / media designers
tend to do this as part of our visual narrative.)

>Of course it is necessary to have internal and external warning systems but
>I think that humanity cannot overcome many of our current foibles unless
>and until we manage the hyperemotional disarray our inheritance and enhance
>our sensory awareness.

"I see your point.  I don't think we are going to get far with either 
unless we understand at least the evolutionary origin of our 
psychological traits and perhaps it will take understanding even the 
circuit wiring."

"However, consider "hyper emotional disarray [of?] our 
inheritance.

[of?]  (Yes, thanks -  I'm multi-tasking as I am writing ...)

"Whatever emotional traits we have come from 
selection.  They are not likely to be in disarray in the environment 
of evolutionary adaptiveness  (EEA), at least when considered from 
the viewpoint of the genes that construct our emotional circuits.  If 
they are in disarray today, it's because the environment (material 
and memetic culture) has changed and genes have not kept up.  How has 
culture changed?  Is the change permanent?  If we could, what changes 
should we make in these traits?  (We will have the ability to do it 
soon, so thinking about this might be rather useful.)"

You are placing more emphasis on genes and I am placing more emphasis on
behavior.  I'm not an essentialist, so I have to say that behavior is
partially genetic and partially adaptive and influenced by many variables.

"'[A]nd enhance our sensory awareness.'  We are not aware or conscious 
of everything that goes on.  Why?  I suspect awareness is a limited 
and precious mental resource.  We probably have a lot of hardwired 
circuits to focus it on matters of pressing importance, and I think 
there are mental illness states involving awareness.  If we were to 
enhance our sensory awareness, what would it take?  What might it 
cost in terms of other mental features?"

If not done with elegant science and a very smart control gauge, it would
cost a hell of a lot.  

>I remember back in the late 1960s when Maharishi suggested that if 10% of
>humanity repeated a "Om" mantra, that there would be a rise in
>consciousness for all.  I feel quite deeply that the consciousness of
>humanity can only be raised if we engineer our brains.

"An analogy that might help is that we have engineered our immune 
systems since the invention of inoculation.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inoculation
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination


>More on this if
>anyone is interested, but I think my paper "Wisdom through AGI / Neural
>Macrosensing" says it fairly clearly.

"Is there a text version or a recording of your talk?"

A shortened text version is here: 
http://www.natasha.cc/consciousnessreframed.htm

Natasha


--------------------------------------------------------------------
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application
hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 00:11:37 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:11:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-sufficient space habitat designed
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009172624.02195b90@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009172624.02195b90@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1191975026_40239@S3.cableone.net>

At 03:30 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:
>fwiw:
>
>http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1646

snip

This is really sad.  My ex-wife and I did a better job on a highly 
closed space farm design in 1975.

Even NASA knows you can't feed people much algae (gives them gas).

I didn't think the 1975 paper was on the net, but it is if anyone 
wants to spend $25.

Keith Henson








From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 00:34:14 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:04:14 +0930
Subject: [ExI] The best thing I've seen all day...
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710091734m1e619b58yaf83320f185ec2d1@mail.gmail.com>

An animated wi-fi detecting t-shirt

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/991e/

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 10 03:15:04 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:15:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710100315.l9A3F50U005945@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson
...
> 
> You should approach the subject "override or reprogram" with *great*
> caution.  Perhaps some of these long evolved psychological mechanisms
> are useless in the present world, but then again you can't be sure
> ... what the future holds. Keith Henson

Ja, so true.  Just because we have a reptilian fear of something does not
mean that the something is not dangerous.

Imagine this scenario as a Monte Python routine.  Man listening to crystal
set, President Roosevelt declares, "The only thing we have to feah is feah
itself!"

The man nods in agreement, switches off the radio, returns complacently to
his newspaper.  An ad suggests he "Fear This" and soon he gets nervous,
which leads to butterflies in the stomach, then a gnawing discomfort, which
soon results in palpable anxiety, sweating, jitters, which causes him to
startle, which causes him to cry out in nameless fear, which causes more
fear in a runaway positive feedback loop, which leads to stark terror, then
mindless panic, followed by a massive coronary.

If we have nothing to fear but fear itself, this does not mean that fear
itself is not to be feared.

spike







From andres at thoughtware.tv  Wed Oct 10 03:21:59 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 23:21:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Non-Profits should reach the masses
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710092021u43c2655dl2cf381cef82abdeb@mail.gmail.com>

"Do you want to connect with your supporters, volunteers, and donors but
don't have the funds to launch expensive outreach campaigns?"

Transhumanist non-profits, regardless if your goal is the Defeating Aging,
bringing about a safe Singularity, igniting optimism towards the future,
whatever it is...feel free to make us of this new tool to reach the world:

http://www.youtube.com/nonprofits

Andr?s,
Thoughtware.TV - "...ponder these two memes, rich in H+ vitamins, and call
me in the morning. ; )"
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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 03:36:14 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:36:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris9oct09,0,3734484.story?coll=la-opinion-center

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: abandoned to fanatics

The outspoken former Dutch legislator deserves the protection her 
country promised before she ran for parliament.

By Sam Harris and Salman Rushdie
October 9, 2007
As you read this, Ayaan Hirsi Ali sits in a safe house with armed men 
guarding her door. She is one of the most poised, intelligent and 
compassionate advocates of freedom of speech and conscience alive 
today, and for this she is despised in Muslim communities throughout 
the world. The details of her story bear repeating, as they 
illustrate how poorly equipped we are to deal with the threat of 
Muslim extremism in the West.

snip

It's worth taking the link and reading the rest, but there is no insight to:

"How poorly equipped we are to deal with the threat of Muslim 
extremism in the West."

Sam and Salman, it's not just the West, we humans are poorly equipped 
to deal with any kind of extremism anywhere in the world.

We don't even understand why Muslim extremism has become a more 
serious problem over the last 40 or 50 years.  The situation is 
analogous to the pre-germ theory times when humans were poorly 
equipped to deal with infectious diseases.

In fact, you can make the case that solving infectious diseases is 
part of what led up to Muslim extremism.  Reducing child and infant 
mortality is a good thing only if accompanied by enough birth control 
to keep the population out of foreseeing a "bleak future," i.e., the 
population growth stays below the economic growth.

Keith Henson






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Oct 10 03:55:21 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:55:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>

At 08:36 PM 10/9/2007 -0700, Keith wrote:

>Reducing child and infant
>mortality is a good thing only if accompanied by enough birth control
>to keep the population out of foreseeing a "bleak future," i.e., the
>population growth stays below the economic growth.

All this is so, but don't neglect the sociological level. Women have 
to *want* to restrict their fertility and be *able* to bring suitable 
pressures to bear, and men need an incentive to allow them to rather 
than kicking their teeth out immediately. I have the impression that 
all the hotbeds of this insanity are either snookered out of the 
global economy--or depend on tearing out raw resources, in which case 
big swinging dick gynophobes rule the roost *because they can*--the 
nation's wealth doesn't depend on having as many smart humans as 
possible being productive economic players.

Damien Broderick 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 04:47:58 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:47:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <380-2200710292336676@M2W029.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200710292336676@M2W029.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <1191991609_49750@S3.cableone.net>

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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 05:03:35 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:03:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>

At 08:55 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:
>At 08:36 PM 10/9/2007 -0700, Keith wrote:
>
> >Reducing child and infant
> >mortality is a good thing only if accompanied by enough birth control
> >to keep the population out of foreseeing a "bleak future," i.e., the
> >population growth stays below the economic growth.
>
>All this is so, but don't neglect the sociological level. Women have
>to *want* to restrict their fertility and be *able* to bring suitable
>pressures to bear, and men need an incentive to allow them to rather
>than kicking their teeth out immediately.

That's a good point.  How the heck *did* women get the idea to 
strongly restrict the number of kids they had and get the men to go 
along with it?  It happened in a number of cultures/language 
groups.  It seems to have happened in Iran (which is Islamic but not 
Arab) but not in a number of other places.

>I have the impression that
>all the hotbeds of this insanity are either snookered out of the
>global economy--or depend on tearing out raw resources, in which case
>big swinging dick gynophobes rule the roost *because they can*--the
>nation's wealth doesn't depend on having as many smart humans as
>possible being productive economic players.

Maybe.  I get the impression that it is more complicated.  I sure 
wish I understood what led to the strong reduction in birth 
rates.  Since women are the major players here I think us males 
should ask their opinions.  Not that I think that's going to give us 
a solid idea of what really happened because it probably was below 
the conscious level in both men and women.

Keith 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 05:12:04 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:12:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
	<1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV73CB93B610AF110E3FDEDA3A60@phx.gbl>

Keith;

Legalized abortion and birth control pills might be one answer.  See
Levitt's book; "Freakonomics."

James Clement

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:04 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Islamic extremism

At 08:55 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:
>At 08:36 PM 10/9/2007 -0700, Keith wrote:
>
> >Reducing child and infant
> >mortality is a good thing only if accompanied by enough birth control
> >to keep the population out of foreseeing a "bleak future," i.e., the
> >population growth stays below the economic growth.
>
>All this is so, but don't neglect the sociological level. Women have
>to *want* to restrict their fertility and be *able* to bring suitable
>pressures to bear, and men need an incentive to allow them to rather
>than kicking their teeth out immediately.

That's a good point.  How the heck *did* women get the idea to 
strongly restrict the number of kids they had and get the men to go 
along with it?  It happened in a number of cultures/language 
groups.  It seems to have happened in Iran (which is Islamic but not 
Arab) but not in a number of other places.

>I have the impression that
>all the hotbeds of this insanity are either snookered out of the
>global economy--or depend on tearing out raw resources, in which case
>big swinging dick gynophobes rule the roost *because they can*--the
>nation's wealth doesn't depend on having as many smart humans as
>possible being productive economic players.

Maybe.  I get the impression that it is more complicated.  I sure 
wish I understood what led to the strong reduction in birth 
rates.  Since women are the major players here I think us males 
should ask their opinions.  Not that I think that's going to give us 
a solid idea of what really happened because it probably was below 
the conscious level in both men and women.

Keith 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 10 04:56:36 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 21:56:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robugs
In-Reply-To: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710100523.l9A5NGsc025638@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


Damien Broderick in his book Transcension, describes bees that are made into
robots for the purpose of spying on or otherwise influencing people.
According to the Daily Koz, DARPA is already there.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/9/10118/4071

{8^D

spike







From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 05:29:21 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:29:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
	<1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <1191994091_50966@S3.cableone.net>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

Reptilian humanoids

In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest 
Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in 
which he identified the extraterrestrial Prison 
Warders as reptilians from the constellation 
Draco. [24]They walk erect and appear to be 
human, living not only on the planets they come 
from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the 
earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which 
has created "hybrids" who are "possessed" by the 
full-blooded reptilians. [25] The reptiles' 
hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change 
from reptilian to human form if they consume 
human blood. Icke has drawn parallels with the 
1980s science-fiction series V, in which the 
earth is taken over by reptiloid aliens disguised as humans.

According to Icke, the reptilian group includes 
many prominent people and practically every world 
leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George 
H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and 
Tony Blair. These people are either themselves 
reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke 
calls slave-like victims of multiple personality 
disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the 
British royal family, and the ruling political 
and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of 
the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is 
not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best 
they can a genetic structure ? the 
reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'." [4]

Icke has since published additional books on the 
same theme. His latest work sees George W. Bush, 
also a reptilian, playing a key role in what Icke 
alleges is a 9/11 conspiracy. In Tales From The 
Time Loop and other works, Icke states that most 
organized religions, especially Judaism, 
Christianity, and Islam, are Illuminati creations 
designed to divide and conquer the human race 
through endless conflicts. In a similar vein, 
Icke believes racial and ethnic divisions are an 
illusion promoted by the reptilians, and that 
racism fuels the Illuminati agenda.

*************

Man does that explain a lot.

Keith Henson



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 05:32:00 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:32:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191994091_50966@S3.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>	<1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
	<1191994091_50966@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV11CEDC5AFA193B4BC6DC83A3A60@phx.gbl>

I think I saw this on a Stargate SG1 episode...

James

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:29 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Islamic extremism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

Reptilian humanoids

In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest 
Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in 
which he identified the extraterrestrial Prison 
Warders as reptilians from the constellation 
Draco. [24]They walk erect and appear to be 
human, living not only on the planets they come 
from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the 
earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which 
has created "hybrids" who are "possessed" by the 
full-blooded reptilians. [25] The reptiles' 
hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change 
from reptilian to human form if they consume 
human blood. Icke has drawn parallels with the 
1980s science-fiction series V, in which the 
earth is taken over by reptiloid aliens disguised as humans.

According to Icke, the reptilian group includes 
many prominent people and practically every world 
leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George 
H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and 
Tony Blair. These people are either themselves 
reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke 
calls slave-like victims of multiple personality 
disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the 
British royal family, and the ruling political 
and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of 
the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is 
not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best 
they can a genetic structure - the 
reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'." [4]

Icke has since published additional books on the 
same theme. His latest work sees George W. Bush, 
also a reptilian, playing a key role in what Icke 
alleges is a 9/11 conspiracy. In Tales From The 
Time Loop and other works, Icke states that most 
organized religions, especially Judaism, 
Christianity, and Islam, are Illuminati creations 
designed to divide and conquer the human race 
through endless conflicts. In a similar vein, 
Icke believes racial and ethnic divisions are an 
illusion promoted by the reptilians, and that 
racism fuels the Illuminati agenda.

*************

Man does that explain a lot.

Keith Henson

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 10 05:39:28 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:39:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV73CB93B610AF110E3FDEDA3A60@phx.gbl>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<580930c20710071218j7159dddfj129e73c8e825fadc@mail.gmail.com>
	<025201c8094c$14bca150$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<BAY124-DAV16EBE06BFBB2D70168E9F5A3A40@phx.gbl>
	<027a01c80963$e7666980$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net>
	<1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
	<1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV73CB93B610AF110E3FDEDA3A60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1191994697_53232@S4.cableone.net>

At 10:12 PM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:
>Keith;
>
>Legalized abortion and birth control pills might be one answer.  See
>Levitt's book; "Freakonomics."

Of course they are one "answer" but you have to get both 
legalized.  Neither are in (for example) Saudi Arabia.

Legalized abortion (in the USSR) is probably the reason the cold war 
never turned hot.

Keith 



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 12:00:44 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:00:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] robugs
In-Reply-To: <200710100523.l9A5NGsc025638@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710100523.l9A5NGsc025638@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710100500n5190440ej32e1398dc86f16ad@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/07, Spike wrote:
>
> Damien Broderick in his book Transcension, describes bees that are made into
> robots for the purpose of spying on or otherwise influencing people.
> According to the Daily Koz, DARPA is already there.
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/9/10118/4071
>

You can take your tin-foil hat off, Spike.
They actually were big dragon flies. They are often seen in Washington.

Kos was just quoting a rubbish Washington Post article.

1) Why use an expensive experimental insect camera on anti-war
protesters? It was a public protest where ordinary cameras (with
telephoto lenses if necessary) could legally be used and produce much
better quality photos.
2) I thought protesters liked cameras to document police brutality?
3) How come nobody photographed these insect spies? I thought
everybody had at least cell-phone cameras nowadays. And, at a protest,
surely cameras would be widely used? The article showed stock photos
and video from their files, not from the protest.
4) An 'expert' said that several were seen flying in unison and
dragonflies never do that. Well, not normally, but they do when they
are trying to mate. :)
4) The problem with flapping insect sized experimental drones is that
the flight time is very short. Fixed wing, propeller driven drones
have longer flight times and are already used in Iraq.
<http://www.avinc.com/UAS_products.asp>
5) Maybe somebody has been to RadioShack?
<http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032406&cp=2032062.2032402&allCount=38&fbc=1&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAir&fbn=Type%2FAir>


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 12:54:08 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:54:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710090409u4733e3a4w99d9acdd556d6724@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30710090409u4733e3a4w99d9acdd556d6724@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710100554j599347ayd4bdaadc782d4d76@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/10/2007, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Conspiracy theorist" being defined as an "Al-Qaeda conspiracy theorist" or
> > a "Bush administration conspiracy theorist"?
> >
> > Or does it work with both? :-)
>
> He was a Bush administration conspiracy theorist, but I guess it would
> work with both. The striking thing in this case was that he could,
> quite reasonably, point out that many people around the world share
> his beliefs. At this point, there would have been no indication to
> diagnose a mental illness. However, he became increasingly preoccupied
> with proving his theory to the point where he was neglecting his work
> and his family, and eventually started thinking that the Americans
> might try to kill him because he knew too much.

Why, if it works also with Al-Qaeda/Iraq conspiracy theorists, and one
replace "American" with "Muslims", some might argue that Mr. Bush
himself would correspond quite well to your description... :-)

Stefano Vaj


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 13:09:37 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:09:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Islamic extremism
In-Reply-To: <1191994091_50966@S3.cableone.net>
References: <020001c8085f$b84a94f0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191856601_54585@S3.cableone.net>
	<02c401c80a26$9f0fffc0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1191910293_11145@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV11BBBDEE1E81B9B332341EA3A50@phx.gbl>
	<1191943779_21698@S1.cableone.net> <1191987303_49712@S4.cableone.net>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071009224741.022be048@satx.rr.com>
	<1191992545_52273@S4.cableone.net> <1191994091_50966@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <62c14240710100609j66cd8747v273f269bfa3e02d0@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> Reptilian humanoids

That sounds a lot like the reptilian creatures some of the subjects
experienced under the effects of DMT in Rick Strassman's research
experiments.  It's an interesting read. Unfortunately the inclusion of
"spirit" in the title probably turns off a lot of serious scientific
types, but it is written to a more scientific/clinical interest than
any other psychedelic investigation I've read.

Even if the original point was to laugh at Icke's 'theory' - is there
a serious comment to be made about common representation of altered
states?  For example, the phenomenon of abduction memories being
commonly blocked by the memory of an owl looking in the bedroom
window.  I'm not interested in the truth or fiction of gray aliens as
much as the similarity of reports from such a large number of claims.
Does this provide some indirect clue to a function of the brain?  Same
question regarding NDE - it's not about what people believe happens
after death, but what physical functions give rise to common
perception/reports of the 'mystical' process.

[1] http://www.google.com/search?q=Strassman+DMT+molecule


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Oct 10 13:31:18 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:31:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] EP
In-Reply-To: <1191991609_49750@S3.cableone.net>
References: <380-2200710292336676@M2W029.mail2web.com>
	<1191991609_49750@S3.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710101331.l9ADVMjG018886@ms-smtp-05.texas.rr.com>

At 11:47 PM 10/9/2007, Keith wrote:
>At 04:03 PM 10/9/2007, Natasha wrote:
>
>>At 10:01 AM 10/9/2007, Keith wrote:
>>
>> >At 12:26 AM 10/9/2007, James Clement wrote:
>> > >If the brain can be looked upon as a combination of interconnected
>> >computers
>> > >running many programs and subroutines, most of which are inherited from
>>our
>> > >reptile, mammal, and primate ancestors, what can we do to override or
>> > >reprogram these?
>>
>>Natasha wrote:
>> >This a topic of great interest to me.  The inherited reptilian program is
>> >dangerous in many environments.
>>
>>"Our line parted ways with the reptiles a *long* time
>>ago.
>>
>>My line has its amygdalae.
>
>My line has the remnants gill slits of which I can feel in the roof 
>of my mouth with my tongue.  It also has a swim bladder that has 
>been modified into lungs and three reptile jaw bones that have 
>become hammer, anvil and stirrup in my ear.  Point being is that 
>over evolutionary time parts can really shift function.

I have a another remnant, but it is too privately located to discuss.

>>"Psychological traits that were not conducive to reproductive
>>success in the last few million years when our ancestors lived as
>>hunter gatherers would have been bred out of the line.  (Keeping in
>>mind 'inclusive fitness.')"
>>
>>http://www.archetypediscoveriesworldwide.com/threebrains.html
>
>Badly over simplified.  Parts of the medial frontal lobes (cortex in 
>nature) are considered essential elements of the limbic 
>system.  Modern anatomy of the brain as seen by fMIR recognizes at 
>least several dozen distinct functional regions.

Yes, but has a few good points.

>>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/interviews/rapaille.html 
>>
>
>Interesting, but it's really hard to ascribe this entirely to 
>hardware.  Is the attractiveness of round headlights on a jeep due 
>to classing one as an animal or due to all the WW II jeeps seen in movies?

I enjoyed his approach.

>>http://www.2012.com.au/reptilian_brain.html
>
>Oh my, David Icke, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke quoting 
>Carlos Castaneda, quoting "Don Juan," the Mexican Yaqui Indian shaman?

Haha!  I thought it was really kind of funny, actually.  I have a 
thing with Carlos Castaneda.  (I lived with the foremost Navajo 
Indian' Medicine Man known as "Longsalt" and his family before Carlos 
wrote his famous books.  I can tell you first hand that Carlos is a 
marvelous fiction writer.)

>When I was going to the U of A I worked across the street from 
>Pascua Village in Tucson.  So I knew a _great deal_ about the Yaqui 
>Indians.  I also knew the son of the guy who was reputed to be the 
>prototype for the fictional "Don Juan."  This is appealing, popular 
>material but it is also the kind of material that would tend to turn 
>off hard science people.  Incidentally a hard science question would 
>be just why Carlos Castaneda had so much appeal.  Or others I am now 
>under legal advice not to mention.

Understood.

>> >One decidedly noticeable environment is
>> >when humans interface with machines, especially automobiles.  If you
>> >sharpen your focus onto the body language and facial expression of drivers,
>> >it is exceedingly apparent that they perform like tightly wound aggressors
>> >vying for position, as if the urgency of their need entitles them to make
>> >abrupt and savage behavior.
>>
>>"I have not noticed this, but I seldom concentrate on the drivers
>>inside.  It has been my experience that most of the time people are
>>fairly cooperative in traffic.  There may be wide variations
>>depending on the geographic location though.  But given that your
>>observations and inferences of the internal state of drivers are
>>correct, how was it that genes that contributed to this behavior
>>contributed to reproductive success in the lives of our ancestors?"
>>
>>I don't know, genetics is not my expertise.  But it's competitive
>>aggression to get ahead of the other guy for getting the food or survival.
>
>You might want to consider chimps or the anthropology of primitive 
>cultures such as the Yanamano.  At least with men (or male chimps) 
>in a tribe, the watchword is (guarded) cooperation.  de Waal's books 
>are an interesting read as are Jane Goodall.
>
>>Getting ahead is not determined by the destination but more from the
>>physical relationship of position and speed.
>
>Gasoline and testosterone.  :-)  Men are risk takers.  Used to be, 
>and still is in some places, a high fraction of them died.  It's not 
>a constant though, it is modulated by environmental outlook.

Women too, incidentally.  Many of the women driving the big SUV's 
here in Austin are Hispanic.  Big SUVs, little roundish ladies and 
stern looks on their faces.  I think it is more of a status symbol 
for gender though - "My man is a great hunter gatherer and I am 
taking control of his procurement."

>>I watch behaviors in a lot of environments.  Airports are good too -
>>watching how people come and go and the relationships of people getting on
>>and off planes, etc.  Grocery stores are also quite fascinating, especially
>>in different countries and cultures.  (Communications / media designers
>>tend to do this as part of our visual narrative.)
>>
>> >Of course it is necessary to have internal and external warning systems but
>> >I think that humanity cannot overcome many of our current foibles unless
>> >and until we manage the hyperemotional disarray our inheritance and enhance
>> >our sensory awareness.
>>
>>"I see your point.  I don't think we are going to get far with either
>>unless we understand at least the evolutionary origin of our
>>psychological traits and perhaps it will take understanding even the
>>circuit wiring."
>>
>>"However, consider "hyper emotional disarray [of?] our
>>inheritance.
>>
>>[of?]  (Yes, thanks -  I'm multi-tasking as I am writing ...)
>>
>>"Whatever emotional traits we have come from
>>selection.  They are not likely to be in disarray in the environment
>>of evolutionary adaptiveness  (EEA), at least when considered from
>>the viewpoint of the genes that construct our emotional circuits.  If
>>they are in disarray today, it's because the environment (material
>>and memetic culture) has changed and genes have not kept up.  How has
>>culture changed?  Is the change permanent?  If we could, what changes
>>should we make in these traits?  (We will have the ability to do it
>>soon, so thinking about this might be rather useful.)"
>>
>>You are placing more emphasis on genes and I am placing more emphasis on
>>behavior.  I'm not an essentialist, so I have to say that behavior is
>>partially genetic and partially adaptive and influenced by many variables.
>
>It depends on the behavior.  Ultimately all behavior is the result 
>of genes that build animals able to behave at all.  Some behaviors 
>are much more hardwired than others.  The most hardwired we may not 
>even be aware of.  See the EP explanation of capture-bonding.

Can't agree.  The senses take on a life of their own.  Yes they were 
engineered to sniff out the environment and protect us, etc., but 
they also are worthy of so much more.  I think this century will be 
the century of the senses.


>>"'[A]nd enhance our sensory awareness.'  We are not aware or conscious
>>of everything that goes on.  Why?  I suspect awareness is a limited
>>and precious mental resource.  We probably have a lot of hardwired
>>circuits to focus it on matters of pressing importance, and I think
>>there are mental illness states involving awareness.  If we were to
>>enhance our sensory awareness, what would it take?  What might it
>>cost in terms of other mental features?"
>>
>>If not done with elegant science and a very smart control gauge, it would
>>cost a hell of a lot.
>
>Right.  Awareness is only one mental time sharing process.

Nicely put.


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Oct 10 13:33:19 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:33:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Non-Profits should reach the masses
In-Reply-To: <f1d9c15f0710092021u43c2655dl2cf381cef82abdeb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <f1d9c15f0710092021u43c2655dl2cf381cef82abdeb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710101333.l9ADXNWe012123@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>

At 10:21 PM 10/9/2007, Andres Colon wrote:

>"Do you want to connect with your supporters, 
>volunteers, and donors but don't have the funds 
>to launch expensive outreach campaigns?"
>
>Transhumanist non-profits, regardless if your 
>goal is the Defeating Aging, bringing about a 
>safe Singularity, igniting optimism towards the 
>future, whatever it is...feel free to make us of 
>this new tool to reach the world:


Thank you for sending this Andr?s

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of 
Plymouth - Faculty of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and 
Electronics, Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only 
what's inside the circle, then that is a 
closed-system perspective. If you study what is 
inside the circle and everything outside the 
circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Oct 10 13:34:10 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:34:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The best thing I've seen all day...
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710091734m1e619b58yaf83320f185ec2d1@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0710091734m1e619b58yaf83320f185ec2d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710101334.l9ADYDvn026232@ms-smtp-06.texas.rr.com>

At 07:34 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:
>An animated wi-fi detecting t-shirt
>
>http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/991e/
>
>--
>Emlyn


Cool.


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium -University of Plymouth - Faculty 
of Technology,
School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, Centre for 
Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 13:36:29 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:36:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710090431h7f9d7a87pff87e9d99431601d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net>
	<ee50357e0710081253r66531246k806d28b0cfa58cc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30710090431h7f9d7a87pff87e9d99431601d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710100636s43fb3c9bh7816bba8a20d28b2@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> The other comment about subtypes of psychotic illnesses is that we
> don't really have a test which can be used to show that these are
> pathologically distinct entities. Different patterns are recognised,
> but they all appear to merge seamlessly at the edges: delusional
> disorder with paranoid schizophrenia, schizophrenia with
> schizoaffective disorder, schizoaffective disorder with bipolar
> disorder. The multiple genes implicated in each subtype overlap, and a
> family history of one predisposes to all of the others. Moreover, they
> all respond in much the same way to antipsychotic medication. Thus, it
> may turn out that there is only one psychotic illness with different
> symptoms in different cases.

You present a clear point, free of emotional bias.  I admit my initial
post on this thread was completely reactionary.  My personal
experience with the field of psychiatry was overwhelmingly
unfortunate.  Perhaps if doctors established some level of trust
before prescribing medication, there would be a greater acceptance of
their proposed treatment program.  I understand that circumstances
affect the feasibility of this approach.

Where is line drawn for mental health professionals?  Is every
observable behavior just cause for diagnosis of disorder?  In my
experience, every glance or body position was scrutinized for some
deviation from normal or acceptable (read: statistical average) - so
how can someone be more than a standard deviation from the top of the
curve and avoid unfavorable psychiatric labels?  (My guess would be
that most of this list's members would  land outside the range of
average for most standardized tests)


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Wed Oct 10 14:06:09 2007
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:06:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer><f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com><62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com><1191870372_65157@S4.cableone.net><ee50357e0710081253r66531246k806d28b0cfa58cc7@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30710090431h7f9d7a87pff87e9d99431601d@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710100636s43fb3c9bh7816bba8a20d28b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c80b46$b5b89bd0$6401a8c0@brainiac>

From: "Mike Dougherty" <msd001 at gmail.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> My personal experience with the field of psychiatry was overwhelmingly
> unfortunate.

There are far too many different "schools" in psychology/psychiatry - makes 
one wonder, doesn't it?

> Where is line drawn for mental health professionals?

They have to be coo-coo themselves.

Olga 



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 14:48:31 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:48:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] robugs
In-Reply-To: <200710100523.l9A5NGsc025638@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <29666bf30710082131m515b7585j306a9d21ca289a11@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710100523.l9A5NGsc025638@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710100748j5c747b7eu56f7812555e04509@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/07, Spike wrote:
>
> Damien Broderick in his book Transcension, describes bees that are made into
> robots for the purpose of spying on or otherwise influencing people.
> According to the Daily Koz, DARPA is already there.
>

Wired has just published a review of UAVs, with photos.
<http://www.wired.com/politics/security/multimedia/2007/10/gallery_uavs>

They mention that terrorists might use the larger models to deliver bombs.
I suppose that's possible, if they get bored with roadside bombs and
suicide bombers.


BillK


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 18:25:06 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:25:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
Message-ID: <A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>


On Oct 6, 2007, at 2:25 PM, David Masten wrote:

> On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 10:50 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>> Yes.  Here is a small sampling of some of the official story things
>> requiring much better explanation.
>
> Actually they don't require better explanation, but better  
> understanding
> of thermal dynamics and structural design is required of the Truthers.

Sorry. Please show me where you get the requisite heat to soften steel  
sufficiently and why molten metal has been reported at the site  
afterwards by many observers.  Also please show me how softened steel  
and a purported pancaking of floors can result in nearly free fall  
collapse time.

>
>
>> 1) No steel framed buildings in history before this have ever fallen
>> due to heat softening the infrastructure;
>
> And how many modern high-rise structures have been struck by modern  
> wide
> body airliners? Or putting it another way - how many buildings with
> modern elevator shafts and modern HVAC systems have had thousands of
> gallons of kerosene burning inside them?
>

Irrelevant as many have burned at much higher temperatures for a  
substantially longer time without collapse.

>> 2) The buildings fell is free fall time which is inconsistent with
>> pancake collapse theories;
>
> What is "free fall" time? Please show accelerations and terminal
> velocity, please. Also please show the assumptions for determining
> coefficient of drag of debris.
>

Both buildings fell in approximately 10s.  Do the math yourself.

> Despite that, typical demolitions practice for tall buildings is to  
> cut
> the structure at key points and allow the upper stories to bring down
> the stories below it, i.e. the collapse should be nearly identical
> whether it was a demolition job or weakening from a kerosene fire.
>

The cutting is the critical aspect that should have been absent in WTC  
by the official story.  Without it you would not see the same behavior.

>> 3) 6 of the claimed terrorists are very much alive and were not
>> anywhere near these events;
>
> What does this have to do with the building collapse? My understanding
> was that the six were found to not be involved, but were "persons of
> interest" for other reasons.
>

It has to do with the official story being full of holes of course.

>> 4) normal hijacking handling policy on the militaries part was  
>> totally
>> suspended on that day which requires complicity from the top;
>
> When did the aircraft involved start squawking the hijack signal on  
> the
> transponders? I'll give you the answer - they didn't. No one realized
> that there were 4 hijackings until it was too late for the first  
> three.
> Then there is the problem of what exactly is the military's hijack
> procedure? The standard law enforcement procedure prior to 9/11 was to
> do nothing to upset the hijackers, which would imply little for the
> military to do.
>

The FAA observes all transponder signals and squawks within minutes.    
The policy for decades has been to scramble fighters as soon as there  
is a report.  Go back and look at the footage on the tube that day.   
We knew as many as four planes were hijacked much earlier than you are  
claiming.  You are making this stuff up.


>> 5) The Pentagon is designed to withstand most non-nuclear attacks
>> including heavy anti-aircraft batteries that will fire on any non
>> military-id craft aggressively approaching it.   Yet well after we
>> knew we were under attack it was allowed to be hit by a hijacked
>> craft.  This also required a stand down order;
>
> This is a truly extraordinary claim. Buildings "designed to withstand
> attacks" are not invincible, but rather allow the occupants a  
> defensible
> position with reduced (not zero) casualties from an attack. The damage
> seen from the airliner is perfectly consistent with this. Also, what  
> AAA
> unit(s) was assigned to the Pentagon? IIRC, there have not been AAA
> batteries at the pentagon for decades. The only defense at the  
> Pentagon
> was a security scheme to prevent unauthorized personnel from wandering
> around inside.
>

The central point is that the plane would not have normally been  
allowed anywhere near the Pentagon and certainly not when we knew an  
attack was in progress.   Again you are mistaken about the facts.

> Incompetence and surprise explains 4 and 5 far better than malice.
>

Incompetence on this scale would have brought down major repercussions  
especially on those charged with defending this nation.

>> 6)  Building 7 was on the air admitted to being "pulled" which means
>> it must have been rigged with explosives well beforehand.
>
> Cite? I suspect being "pulled" referred to ordering firefighters out  
> of
> the building.
>

Look it up yourself.

>> A question:
>>
>> If you knew beyond reasonable doubt that your government set-up 911  
>> to
>> stampede the country in the direction they wanted, what would you do
>> differently?   How would you look at current events and and the "war
>> or terror"?
>
> Mu.
>

Clever.  NOT.



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 18:37:36 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:37:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <001e01c808fb$11843670$00054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5CFEEAC-9724-4328-B4AC-276DBBB0FAFD@mac.com>
	<001e01c808fb$11843670$00054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <E2AFB355-6F0E-4DA9-87A0-312BDD575484@mac.com>


On Oct 7, 2007, at 8:59 AM, John K Clark wrote:

> "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>
>
>> one of the most difficult to accept
>> conclusions I have ever come to.
>
> I disagree, the UFO and ESP people have conclusions too and they are
> about equally difficult to accept because they are as STUPID as your  
> idea.
> However your conclusion has an additional dimension besides idiocy,
> your crap is vicious.

Thanks a lot for your insightful analysis.  NOT.  Please stop the  
personal attacks now.

>
>
> Samantha you have every right to be angry about the war in Iraq, I'm  
> angry
> too, but you shouldn't let your anger rise to a point where it  
> overwhelms
> your rationality. If the silly ideas you were pedaling were to  
> become widely
> believed, (and we both know history is full of silly ideas that were  
> widely
> believed) then there will be a demand for revenge against the American
> "traitors" involved in this evil 911 "plot". And that could lead to  
> far
> worse things than the war in Iraq.

If 10% of the things wrong with the official explanation were  
seriously examined we would have many "leaders" on trial for treason.   
That would be just and utterly necessary if we are going to escape the  
end of freedom in America.   Or don't you believe in finding the truth  
and punishing those who have done wrong?
>
> You worry about civil rights and I do too, but now you would have
> American citizens rounded up and put in camps for being involved
> in an evil 911 conspiracy that in fact never existed. If I don't  
> like your
> politics I'll put you in the camp too; true I can't prove you had  
> anything
> to do with the plot, but that is a small point because I can't prove  
> that
> anybody in the camp had anything to do with it either because there
> was no plot to be involved in.
>

What are you talking about?  I advocated no such thing.  I advocate  
reopening the investigation and letting the truth fall where it may.    
It is the government that has spoken of camps and taking away all  
rights on their say-so, not I.


> It turned out that the rational for the war was built on a house of  
> cards,
> but if you have your way the violent backlash would have an equally  
> shaky
> foundation. You are doing EXACTLY what George Bush did 5 years ago,
> letting your emotions run away with you.  Saddam Hussein had weapons
> of mass destruction or he did not, there was an evil American plot  
> to crash
> airliners into buildings or there was not. Science will not be  
> fooled and
> that is why policies built on a bullshit premise will lead to  
> disaster.
>

It was obviously a house of cards.  I said so from day 1 and was  
vilified here with great enthusiasm for doing so.   I am doing what  
Bush did?  What kind of empty and utterly spurious argument is  
that?    Show me the science then.  I am waiting.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 18:48:33 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:48:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <027601c80961$cd248720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
	<027601c80961$cd248720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <C8B4EBA7-27EF-4248-BF06-625994CED5D9@mac.com>


On Oct 7, 2007, at 9:10 PM, Lee Corbin wrote:

> Richard writes
>
>> There does not need to be any suggestion that anyone knew any precise
>> details of the attacks.  No conspiracy to do anything at all (and
>> certainly not a conspiracy to blow anything up).  And no knowledge of
>> exactly what the attack would be.  Just a decision, at some level,  
>> that
>> they had to allow the widely expected big attack to get through.
>
> A decision, at some level, "to allow the widely expected big
> attack to get through" would leave traces, no?  Again, a conspiracy
> must be immune to defectors and to people wanting to write a lot
> of books and become celebrities like John Dean.
>

Yes.  If an investigation is allowed to look into them.  A conspiracy  
needs to control who knows what and prevent to deep a probing for the  
facts afterwards and be able to discredit defectors adequately.  It  
does not need to be perfect to succeed.  That history is replete with  
conspiracies only widely believed long after the event should teach us  
that even large-scale conspiracies do occur.

> Now, how many people would have to be involved in that
> conspiracy?  (I honestly ask for estimates.)

A handful of people at the top able to give appropriate commands and  
true believers to do a few necessary bits of work would be sufficient  
to create the event.

> Do you suppose
> that the 9-11 pictures, TV shots of people jumping from
> buildings, and so on, never cause these people remorse
> or second thoughts?  All in all, conspiracies require a lot
> of evidence to be believed in.
>

I have no idea or interest in whether there is remorse or second  
thoughts.  I want a full real investigation into the facts of this  
great tragic event that changed so much.

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 18:50:38 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:50:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] META: quoting
In-Reply-To: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <1B75B959-94BE-4FA7-B3B6-679605F51AE2@mac.com>


On Oct 8, 2007, at 12:18 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

>
> Folks, I've had enough. Anyone who'll be caught top-posting,
> and/or not trimming down cited material will go on moderation.

What?  Not that long ago top posting was advised as being less  
annoying that having to scan through quotes.

- s


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 10 19:09:29 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:09:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710080701h12d9f557v62451472ba908a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C42AC5CE-F0F1-40A2-8E27-9406F00E1106@mac.com>

This is the last thing I will say on this subject for now.  I find it  
very interesting and telling that many more people here will  
respectfully respond to and consider opinions that global warming is  
largely false than will consider the possibility that there is much  
more to 911 than the official story.   Yet global warming is much more  
deeply and broadly accepted than the official 911 story.  But bringing  
up alternative ideas on 911 subjects me immediately to personal attack  
and vilification.   This leads me to conclude that most people do not  
think objectively about this subject and react largely emotionally.

My apologies for disturbing your slumber.  There is no danger most of  
the frogs here will jump out of the pot before being cooked.

- samantha



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 10 19:14:23 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:14:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 10, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Also please show me how softened steel
> and a purported pancaking of floors can result in nearly free fall
> collapse time.


This is really, really obvious with any kind of rudimentary  
engineering background.  The general engineering core most undergrad  
engineering students are required to take supply more than adequate  
knowledge for the "how" of this to be obvious.

I have seen this elaborated on ad nauseum elsewhere by engineers, so  
I don't see the need to elaborate on it here.  Since you have clearly  
spent a lot of time thinking about this, you either refused to  
believe the basic engineering explanations, did not understand the  
basic engineering explanations, or are doing all your research from  
sources so grossly biased that the basic engineering explanation is  
not even mentioned.

Either way, explaining this to your satisfaction will be a waste of  
time on the part of the list.  There may have been a conspiracy, but  
the way the buildings collapsed provide no evidence of it.

J. Andrew Rogers


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Oct 11 01:31:30 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:31:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robugs
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710100500n5190440ej32e1398dc86f16ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710111031.l9BAVUk3015084@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] robugs
> 
> On 10/10/07, Spike wrote:
> >
> > Damien Broderick in his book Transcension, describes bees that are made
> into
> > robots for the purpose of spying on or otherwise influencing people.
> > According to the Daily Koz, DARPA is already there.
> >
> > http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/9/10118/4071
> > {8^D
> 
> You can take your tin-foil hat off, Spike...

Ja, it was a joke.  That was why the original post contained a {8^D.  I
thought it entertaining that these protestors thought themselves interesting
enough to deploy expensive surveillance gear.  I can see more of them than I
care to know about from a safe distance with no optical equipment.

> They actually were big dragon flies. They are often seen in Washington...

I grew up in Florida, where dragonflies are often huge.  Protestors that
come to Washington from other parts are often astounded by these monsters.
I thought it hilarious in any case.

> 1) Why use an expensive experimental insect camera on anti-war
> protesters?...

Roger that.  One of the protestors carried a sign that read "Stop the war
now!"  Well, we ARE stopping the war now.  Wait until they see what happens
when we stop stopping the war.

spike







From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Thu Oct 11 14:44:33 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:44:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<470948D2.2090402@lightlink.com>
	<027601c80961$cd248720$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<C8B4EBA7-27EF-4248-BF06-625994CED5D9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c80c15$a901c090$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Samantha writes

> On Oct 7, 2007, at 9:10 PM, Lee Corbin wrote:
> 
>> A decision, at some level, "to allow the widely expected big
>> attack to get through" would leave traces, no?  Again, a conspiracy
>> must be immune to defectors and to people wanting to write a lot
>> of books and become celebrities like John Dean.
> 
> Yes.  If an investigation is allowed to look into them.

What I have in mind are "tell-all" books, trips to the N.Y.T,  and late-night TV.

> A conspiracy  
> needs to control who knows what and prevent to deep a probing for the  
> facts afterwards and be able to discredit defectors adequately.  It  
> does not need to be perfect to succeed.  That history is replete with  
> conspiracies only widely believed long after the event should teach us  
> that even large-scale conspiracies do occur.

It would be helpful if you could think of an example or two
of the kind of thing you have in mind.  I myself am having a
hard time coming up with modern conspiracies at all. (Thanks.)
 
> A handful of people at the top able to give appropriate commands and  
> true believers to do a few necessary bits of work would be sufficient  
> to create the event.

Yeah, examples like that, I mean.  And the necessary example or two
should have occurred in western democracies (they're all too easy in
dictatorships). 

Yet one separate problem I have altogether with 9/11 itself is
that the temptations on Bush the last few years would have been
immense to "allow" another huge event.  One 9/11 size event every
couple of years would keep the Americans in a war fever. (After 
all, everyone agrees that without 9/11 in the first place, neither
the Patriot Acts nor foreign invasions could have occurred.)
So if you believe that (i) the Administration could be so wicked
(ii) it really is practical for them to pull off such things without
getting caught, then why haven't any terrorist events of any
significance happened since?

Lee



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 11 11:59:49 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:59:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] robugs
In-Reply-To: <200710111031.l9BAVUk3015084@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0710100500n5190440ej32e1398dc86f16ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710111031.l9BAVUk3015084@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20071011115949.GJ4005@leitl.org>

On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 06:31:30PM -0700, Spike wrote:

> Ja, it was a joke.  That was why the original post contained a {8^D.  I
> thought it entertaining that these protestors thought themselves interesting

UAVs (and even military jets overflight) are becoming common to document 
and protesters. But mostly to intimidate them. Vee are vatching you, and
ve haff vays, you know. Do your guys are as good at demolitioning your
constitution as ours? Well, it's a contest that only can't be won by
not playing.

> enough to deploy expensive surveillance gear.  I can see more of them than I

UAVs are now cheap enough that a single person can buy one.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=uav

And some people will soon learn to fear the open skies, and jam certain
frequencies, GPS included. What fun! What next, IEDs?

> care to know about from a safe distance with no optical equipment.

You can't build a profile without records. And biometrics is next,
and area denial (Raytheon style) next still. Until the streets are clear, 
and there's law, and order. Well, perhaps not law, but certainly order.
 
> > They actually were big dragon flies. They are often seen in Washington...
> 
> I grew up in Florida, where dragonflies are often huge.  Protestors that
> come to Washington from other parts are often astounded by these monsters.
> I thought it hilarious in any case.

That doesn't look like dragonflies to me

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2007/10/04/VI2007100400958.html
 
> > 1) Why use an expensive experimental insect camera on anti-war
> > protesters?...
> 
> Roger that.  One of the protestors carried a sign that read "Stop the war
> now!"  Well, we ARE stopping the war now.  Wait until they see what happens
> when we stop stopping the war.

I hope this is another tongue-in-cheek, because you sure can't turn fish
soup back into aquarium again. Or can someone raise over a million dead?
I don't think so.

I do have some opinions about this, but they're illegal in several places,
and I don't want to taint y'all by association.


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 11 11:31:18 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:31:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: quoting
In-Reply-To: <1B75B959-94BE-4FA7-B3B6-679605F51AE2@mac.com>
References: <20071008071826.GC4005@leitl.org>
	<1B75B959-94BE-4FA7-B3B6-679605F51AE2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20071011113118.GH4005@leitl.org>


Samantha is now on moderation.

On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 11:50:38AM -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> What?  Not that long ago top posting was advised as being less  
> annoying that having to scan through quotes.

Whoever was advising it, wasn't speaking for me. Neither excessive
quoting nor top-posting, and especially a combination of both
will not be tolerated. Same thing for wta-talk@

If you're not happy, complain to the list owners.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 11 11:32:39 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:32:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <E2AFB355-6F0E-4DA9-87A0-312BDD575484@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5CFEEAC-9724-4328-B4AC-276DBBB0FAFD@mac.com>
	<001e01c808fb$11843670$00054e0c@MyComputer>
	<E2AFB355-6F0E-4DA9-87A0-312BDD575484@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20071011113239.GI4005@leitl.org>

On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 11:37:36AM -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> Thanks a lot for your insightful analysis.  NOT.  Please stop the  
> personal attacks now.

There will be no reply forthcoming from John Clark, because he complied with 
the killthread.
 
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 21:52:08 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:52:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Doubts and gas chambers
In-Reply-To: <003201c80aae$4e149c60$e7024e0c@MyComputer>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071355m26b85424h1ddb25cc0a816a55@mail.gmail.com>
	<005201c8096e$9cacc500$88054e0c@MyComputer>
	<A5529580-425D-4468-9D67-F956504E890B@randallsquared.com>
	<02b601c80a1c$d2631510$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<470BAB1A.1020008@lightlink.com>
	<003201c80aae$4e149c60$e7024e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <580930c20710101452r36e91fb7pa15a17b9400caabb@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/9/07, John K Clark <jonkc at att.net> wrote:
> So you also think you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Americans
> were involved in the 911 mass murder. You realize I hope that if you can
> really do that then you can send someone to the gas chamber.
> But no doubt the proof is similar to the one about my attribution "error".
> And that's what makes this crap not only idiotic but scary.

No, my point is that more than a reasonable doubt exists that the
official version is not "the truth, all the truth, nothing but the
truth", which is exactly the opposite.

But let us stop that here, unless you can find some H+ connection.

Stefano Vaj


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Oct 10 13:22:10 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:22:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710100554j599347ayd4bdaadc782d4d76@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer>
	<580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer>
	<f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f21c22e30710090409u4733e3a4w99d9acdd556d6724@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20710100554j599347ayd4bdaadc782d4d76@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710101322.l9ADMDBi022516@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>

Please remove this discussions on conspiracy theories off this list.

Thank you,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More


At 07:54 AM 10/10/2007, you wrote:
>On 10/9/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 09/10/2007, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Conspiracy theorist" being defined as an "Al-Qaeda conspiracy 
> theorist" or
> > > a "Bush administration conspiracy theorist"?
> > >
> > > Or does it work with both? :-)
> >
> > He was a Bush administration conspiracy theorist, but I guess it would
> > work with both. The striking thing in this case was that he could,
> > quite reasonably, point out that many people around the world share
> > his beliefs. At this point, there would have been no indication to
> > diagnose a mental illness. However, he became increasingly preoccupied
> > with proving his theory to the point where he was neglecting his work
> > and his family, and eventually started thinking that the Americans
> > might try to kill him because he knew too much.
>
>Why, if it works also with Al-Qaeda/Iraq conspiracy theorists, and one
>replace "American" with "Muslims", some might argue that Mr. Bush
>himself would correspond quite well to your description... :-)
>
>Stefano Vaj
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1060 - Release Date: 
>10/9/2007 4:43 PM

<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 10 21:11:16 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:11:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>

Samantha,

The passage below says it all,

On 10/10/07, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:

> Since you have clearly
> spent a lot of time thinking about this, you either refused to
> believe the basic engineering explanations, did not understand the
> basic engineering explanations, or are doing all your research from
> sources so grossly biased that the basic engineering explanation is
> not even mentioned.

and the operative word is "refused".   The proof is simple.  The
consensus among engineering experts who are ideologically and
intellectually neutral and who have studied the facts have concluded
that the conspiracy narrative is full-throated hoohah.  For your point
of view to be correct then, either the expertise of these people would
have to be thoroughly imaginary, or all these people would have to be
part of the consipracy.  Ain't happenin'.

Too many progressives like yourself have shredded their credibility by
falling for this nutzo nonsense.  I won't presume tell you which ideas
to believe or to give voice to, but if you value in the least your
effectiveness in pursuing a more just world, then you should keep your
views on this business to yourself

-- 
Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you
                     know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 11 23:00:05 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:00:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Intel Completes Photonics Trifecta
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710111600o500216a7mab1b7682457a97c@mail.gmail.com>

Not suprising.  Not all that exciting.  Gradually, quietly, behind the
scenes, technical progress moves right along.

Does anyone know the ballpark of the increased performance specs of
photonic computation?

Intel Completes Photonics Trifecta
http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/19500/page1/

-- 
Best, Jeff Davis

               "Everything's hard till you
                     know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles


From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Oct 11 23:07:24 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:07:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cloning / Growing Human Organs for Transplanting
Message-ID: <380-220071041123724895@M2W030.mail2web.com>

Does anyone have references to literature concerning cloning and growing 
your own organs to be used now (or stored for later) for transplantation 
into your own body (as an alternative to xenotransplantation (pigs)). 
Also, if 
you aware of any companies doing R&D on cloning and growing personalized 
organs, please let me know.

Many thanks, 
Natasha 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft?
Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail




From rpwl at lightlink.com  Thu Oct 11 20:40:49 2007
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:40:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
	<a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com>

Jeff Davis wrote:
> Samantha,
> 
> The passage below says it all,
> 
> On 10/10/07, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:
> 
>> Since you have clearly
>> spent a lot of time thinking about this, you either refused to
>> believe the basic engineering explanations, did not understand the
>> basic engineering explanations, or are doing all your research from
>> sources so grossly biased that the basic engineering explanation is
>> not even mentioned.
> 
> and the operative word is "refused".   The proof is simple.  The
> consensus among engineering experts who are ideologically and
> intellectually neutral and who have studied the facts have concluded
> that the conspiracy narrative is full-throated hoohah.  For your point
> of view to be correct then, either the expertise of these people would
> have to be thoroughly imaginary, or all these people would have to be
> part of the consipracy.  Ain't happenin'.
> 
> Too many progressives like yourself have shredded their credibility by
> falling for this nutzo nonsense.  I won't presume tell you which ideas
> to believe or to give voice to, but if you value in the least your
> effectiveness in pursuing a more just world, then you should keep your
> views on this business to yourself
> 
Jeff,

Please be careful about using words like "progressives" in discussing 
this matter, lest you fall prey to the kind of carelessness you are 
targetting.

"Progressives" do not give credence to the conspiracy theories any more 
than you do, and my understanding is that Samantha is not coming from a 
"progressive" POV at all.

The vast majority of progressives believe that the attacks were a 
hideous crime, and that the government was negligent in the extreme, but 
their position is a million miles away from the idea that someone in the 
government conspired to perpetrate the attacks.



Richard Loosemore













From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Thu Oct 11 19:53:03 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:53:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] META: Re:  Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
	<a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18027E46-5A82-4BCD-8F2E-08506E6E07FF@ceruleansystems.com>


FYI, this thread was officially killed.  I was remiss in responding  
to it in the first place, mostly because I didn't notice that it was  
supposed to be dead.  I'm replying here just in case anyone else  
missed it.

J. Andrew Rogers



On Oct 10, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> Samantha,
>
> The passage below says it all,
>
> On 10/10/07, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:
>
>> Since you have clearly
>> spent a lot of time thinking about this, you either refused to
>> believe the basic engineering explanations, did not understand the
>> basic engineering explanations, or are doing all your research from
>> sources so grossly biased that the basic engineering explanation is
>> not even mentioned.
>
> and the operative word is "refused".   The proof is simple.  The
> consensus among engineering experts who are ideologically and
> intellectually neutral and who have studied the facts have concluded
> that the conspiracy narrative is full-throated hoohah.  For your point
> of view to be correct then, either the expertise of these people would
> have to be thoroughly imaginary, or all these people would have to be
> part of the consipracy.  Ain't happenin'.
>
> Too many progressives like yourself have shredded their credibility by
> falling for this nutzo nonsense.  I won't presume tell you which ideas
> to believe or to give voice to, but if you value in the least your
> effectiveness in pursuing a more just world, then you should keep your
> views on this business to yourself
>
> -- 
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>                "Everything's hard till you
>                      know how to do it."
>                               Ray Charles
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From andres at thoughtware.tv  Thu Oct 11 05:42:53 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:42:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thoughtware.TV: New Scientist Video -Quest For Immortality
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710102242x56fc5fb7wed84bba3ea23d01f@mail.gmail.com>

New Scientist is introducing transhumanism to the public. Have you seen the
video yet?

They have interviewed Nick Bostrom, Anders Sandberg and Aubrey de Grey.

Members have already added it at Thoughtware.TV:
http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/853

The topics covered are: Uploading, Repair and Reverse of Aging, Transhumanism
and common questions regarding these possible scenarios.

Come Watch it. If you want to share it just copy the embed code and
redistribute it all over the web or share the link.

Enjoy!

Andres,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.TV> - " ...take your positive H+
memes, put them in a bag and head out with them in search of adventure"
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Oct 12 00:23:42 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:23:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cloning / Growing Human Organs for Transplanting
In-Reply-To: <380-220071041123724895@M2W030.mail2web.com>
References: <380-220071041123724895@M2W030.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200710111923.42312.kanzure@gmail.com>

Natasha, 

I went off to search ScienceDirect, SpringerLink, and whatever else 
Google has picked up in the last two or three years on this research 
(but not yet Scholar). There's a surprisingly large lack of organ 
cloning research going on.

However, I do have some links on cloning topics in general, perhaps some 
cross-references over on PubMed Central can help track things down:

How to clone a human v1.1
http://www.biofact.com/cloning/human.html

"References salient to SCNT"
http://home.cfl.rr.com/chaosdriven/references.html

Human cloning handbook
http://home.cfl.rr.com/chaosdriven/hch.html

Growing new organs (2000)
http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/cellbiol/2000-February/012238.html

Nature's blueprints to growing organs (2002)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-01-23-cover-organs.htm

Successful lab-grown bladder transplant (2006)
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/04/1455259
http://www.physorg.com/news63362878.html

Lab grown skin? (questionable) (1999)
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/06/0740209

And I remember finding this weird website one day:
http://babytron.com/

- Bryan

On Thursday 11 October 2007 18:07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote:
> Does anyone have references to literature concerning cloning and
> growing your own organs to be used now (or stored for later) for
> transplantation into your own body (as an alternative to
> xenotransplantation (pigs)). Also, if
> you aware of any companies doing R&D on cloning and growing
> personalized organs, please let me know.
>
> Many thanks,
> Natasha


From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Oct 12 01:21:55 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:21:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top ten dumbest remarks
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><011b01c8076b$d7df2640$93044e0c@MyComputer><580930c20710071207i36b2538fw4f47538cda88b2ee@mail.gmail.com><007801c80920$6a151870$1d054e0c@MyComputer><f21c22e30710080633s1276861dsbc7a6c9a06df3d72@mail.gmail.com><580930c20710081213t5c3d5266ydfe95b4e1437d53b@mail.gmail.com><f21c22e30710090409u4733e3a4w99d9acdd556d6724@mail.gmail.com><580930c20710100554j599347ayd4bdaadc782d4d76@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710101322.l9ADMDBi022516@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <008601c80c6e$d7647500$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

Natasha writes

> Please remove this discussions on conspiracy theories off this list.  

Well, that's clearer than your first message. I wasn't real certain
just what you were asking be halted.

Even so, "this discussions"  could still mean this particular thread,
or discussion theories in all aspects.  I thought that the first warning
was with regard to 9-11 details.

> Thank you,
> Natasha 

Lee



From lcorbin at rawbw.com  Fri Oct 12 01:27:19 2007
From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:27:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Progressives
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com><a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
	<470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com>
Message-ID: <008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>

I just happened to email Jeff on this same subject, but Richard has
now raised my query explicitly.

> Please be careful about using words like "progressives" in discussing 
> this matter, lest you fall prey to the kind of carelessness you are 
> targetting.
> 
> "Progressives" do not give credence to the conspiracy theories any more 
> than you do, and my understanding is that Samantha is not coming from a 
> "progressive" POV at all.
> 
> The vast majority of progressives believe that....

Are most of the people I used to rail against as (American) "liberals" now
calling themselves "progressives"?

For those who are, is there much consciousness, do you think, of a link
with the historical Progressive Movement of 1890 - 1920?  (See the wikipedia
article.)

The very psychology of changing labels---if not orientations---is very interesting
and reflects something about our thought processes (or at least about the thought
processes of some of us).

Lee



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 12 06:36:46 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:36:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notice
Message-ID: <20071012063646.GY4005@leitl.org>


Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> is now on moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 12 06:47:56 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:47:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notice
Message-ID: <20071012064756.GB4005@leitl.org>


Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com is now on moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 12 06:49:02 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:49:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notice
Message-ID: <20071012064902.GC4005@leitl.org>


Stefano Vaj stefano.vaj at gmail.com is now on moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 12 06:52:44 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:52:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notice
Message-ID: <20071012065244.GE4005@leitl.org>


Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com> is now on moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Oct 12 14:14:44 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:14:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
Message-ID: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>


Last night I had to fill out a form for an MRI.  It was a regular, 
usual form, nothing out of the ordinary.  Had a drawing of a body, 
front and back.

The list has such items listed as:

electronic implant or device
Magnetically-activated implant or device
Magnet therapy patch
Neurostimulation system
Spinal cord stimulator
Internal electrodes or wires
Bone growth/bone/fusion stimulator
Implanted drug infusion device
Any type of prosthesis/implant (eye, penile, etc.)
Eyelid spring or wire
Artificial or prosthetic limb
Radiation seeds or implants
Tissue expander

(and the lists goes on....)

When I see it in black and white, written down on a form, I have to 
laugh at how cyborgization of body is an every day affair.

Natasha




From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Oct 12 15:54:12 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:54:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notification
Message-ID: <20071012155412.GY4005@leitl.org>


Richard Loosemore <rpwl at lightlink.com> has been removed from moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Oct 12 14:00:41 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:00:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cloning / Growing Human Organs for Transplanting
In-Reply-To: <200710111923.42312.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <380-220071041123724895@M2W030.mail2web.com>
	<200710111923.42312.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710121401.l9CE13As008617@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>

At 07:23 PM 10/11/2007, Brian wrote:

>I went off to search ScienceDirect, SpringerLink, and whatever else
>Google has picked up in the last two or three years on this research
>(but not yet Scholar). There's a surprisingly large lack of organ
>cloning research going on.
>
>However, I do have some links on cloning topics in general, perhaps some
>cross-references over on PubMed Central can help track things down:
>
>Growing new organs (2000)
>http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/cellbiol/2000-February/012238.html
>
>Nature's blueprints to growing organs (2002)
>http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-01-23-cover-organs.htm
>
>Successful lab-grown bladder transplant (2006)
>http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/04/1455259
>http://www.physorg.com/news63362878.html
>
>Lab grown skin? (questionable) (1999)
>http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/06/0740209

These are great.  Thank you.

Natasha




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct 12 16:47:40 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:47:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>

At 07:14 AM 10/12/2007, Natasha wrote:

>Last night I had to fill out a form for an MRI.  It was a regular,
>usual form, nothing out of the ordinary.  Had a drawing of a body,
>front and back.
>
>The list has such items listed as:
>
>electronic implant or device
>Magnetically-activated implant or device
>Magnet therapy patch
>Neurostimulation system
>Spinal cord stimulator
>Internal electrodes or wires
>Bone growth/bone/fusion stimulator
>Implanted drug infusion device
>Any type of prosthesis/implant (eye, penile, etc.)
>Eyelid spring or wire
>Artificial or prosthetic limb
>Radiation seeds or implants
>Tissue expander
>
>(and the lists goes on....)
>
>When I see it in black and white, written down on a form, I have to
>laugh at how cyborgization of body is an every day affair.

I don't know if the big magnet would rip something magnetic out of a 
person, but those big magnets are *dangerous.*

Few years ago I was talking to a MRI tech who told me about the time 
someone brought a steel E cylinder into the room in spite of all the 
warnings to keep iron out.  About 15 or 20 feet from the magnet the 
cylinder ripped loose at 50 g acceleration and went into the magnet 
bore at about the velocity of an 18th century cannon 
ball.  Fortunately nobody was in the way.  Took 6 days to cycle the 
magnet down, pull out the oxygen cylinder and bring the magnet back 
up to strength.

Keith 



From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Fri Oct 12 18:06:29 2007
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:06:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
	<1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <470FB7A5.60209@comcast.net>


Natasha,

I've got two plates, and a bunch of screws holding my left elbow together.

See: http://home.comcast.net/~brent.allsop/04_12_24_elbow1.jpg

Also, I am a diabetic, so I take insulin, and use a monitoring device to 
know how much I need to take.  They now have artificial pancreases (for 
both inside and external to the body) that do parts of this, at least 
temporarily, already, but I'm looking forward to the day when they 
perfect something that is as good as the original.  For 25 years now, 
since I was diagnosed with this, they've been claiming they'll have this 
in another 5 years.  Unfortunately, they're still saying about another 5 
years.  In another 5 years or so, I may start to believe them! I'm not 
dead yet! ;)

Thanks for that fascinating list letting me know that I'm no longer so 
unique!

Brent Allsop




From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Fri Oct 12 18:33:53 2007
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:33:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <470FBE11.20006@kevinfreels.com>

It's fascinating. But what concerns me is that as we continue to 
increase the number and complexity of devices, we may have to find a new 
way to get the data we now receive from an MRI.

Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> Last night I had to fill out a form for an MRI.  It was a regular, 
> usual form, nothing out of the ordinary.  Had a drawing of a body, 
> front and back.
>
> The list has such items listed as:
>
> electronic implant or device
> Magnetically-activated implant or device
> Magnet therapy patch
> Neurostimulation system
> Spinal cord stimulator
> Internal electrodes or wires
> Bone growth/bone/fusion stimulator
> Implanted drug infusion device
> Any type of prosthesis/implant (eye, penile, etc.)
> Eyelid spring or wire
> Artificial or prosthetic limb
> Radiation seeds or implants
> Tissue expander
>
> (and the lists goes on....)
>
> When I see it in black and white, written down on a form, I have to 
> laugh at how cyborgization of body is an every day affair.
>
> Natasha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>   


From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Fri Oct 12 18:36:45 2007
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:36:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
	<1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <470FBEBD.7030209@kevinfreels.com>

There are many excellent videos on youtube that show what happens when 
someone has a metallic object in the room with an MRI. One is a chair 
that flies up in the air and gets stuck to it! Neat stuff.

hkhenson wrote:
> At 07:14 AM 10/12/2007, Natasha wrote:
>
>   
>> Last night I had to fill out a form for an MRI.  It was a regular,
>> usual form, nothing out of the ordinary.  Had a drawing of a body,
>> front and back.
>>
>> The list has such items listed as:
>>
>> electronic implant or device
>> Magnetically-activated implant or device
>> Magnet therapy patch
>> Neurostimulation system
>> Spinal cord stimulator
>> Internal electrodes or wires
>> Bone growth/bone/fusion stimulator
>> Implanted drug infusion device
>> Any type of prosthesis/implant (eye, penile, etc.)
>> Eyelid spring or wire
>> Artificial or prosthetic limb
>> Radiation seeds or implants
>> Tissue expander
>>
>> (and the lists goes on....)
>>
>> When I see it in black and white, written down on a form, I have to
>> laugh at how cyborgization of body is an every day affair.
>>     
>
> I don't know if the big magnet would rip something magnetic out of a 
> person, but those big magnets are *dangerous.*
>
> Few years ago I was talking to a MRI tech who told me about the time 
> someone brought a steel E cylinder into the room in spite of all the 
> warnings to keep iron out.  About 15 or 20 feet from the magnet the 
> cylinder ripped loose at 50 g acceleration and went into the magnet 
> bore at about the velocity of an 18th century cannon 
> ball.  Fortunately nobody was in the way.  Took 6 days to cycle the 
> magnet down, pull out the oxygen cylinder and bring the magnet back 
> up to strength.
>
> Keith 
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>   
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Fri Oct 12 17:30:58 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:30:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] TED | Talks | Hod Lipson: Robots that are "self-aware" (video)
In-Reply-To: <22360fa10710121028l2193b9e8mf4f125ed6476c9bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22360fa10710121028l2193b9e8mf4f125ed6476c9bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com>

Hod Lipson demonstrates a few of his cool little robots, which have
the ability to learn, understand themselves and even self-replicate.
At the root of this uncanny demo is a deep inquiry into the nature of
how humans and living beings learn and evolve, and how we might
harness these processes to make things that learn and evolve.

TED | Talks | Hod Lipson: Robots that are "self-aware" (video)
<http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/165>


From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Oct 12 22:34:31 2007
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:34:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <470FBEBD.7030209@kevinfreels.com>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
	<1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net>
	<470FBEBD.7030209@kevinfreels.com>
Message-ID: <C7D3BCE0-76E1-4830-A58F-CDA9801D8C82@freeshell.org>


On Oct 12, 2007, at 14:36, Kevin Freels wrote:

> There are many excellent videos on youtube that show what happens  
> when someone has a metallic object in the room with an MRI. One is  
> a chair that flies up in the air and gets stuck to it! Neat stuff.

I remember watching Quinn Norton talking about the rare earth magnet  
she had implanted in her finger that gave her a "sixth sense" for EM  
fields. (I believe this was her talk to the CCC <http://events.ccc.de/ 
congress/2006/Fahrplan/events/1629.en.html>)  The magnet had  
shattered in her finger, and her doctor had warned her that if any  
slivers of it were still in her finger, and she had an MRI done,  
she'd better make damned sure that none of the rest of her would be  
between that finger and the magnet... :)

B

--
Brent Neal
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>





From andres at thoughtware.tv  Sat Oct 13 00:27:59 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:27:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710121727w79192177ja76851ebf4bae57c@mail.gmail.com>

Fascinating! I'm glad you shared this Natasha :-)

"...The list has such items listed as:

electronic implant or device
Magnetically-activated implant or device
Magnet therapy patch
Neurostimulation system
Spinal cord stimulator
Internal electrodes or wires
Bone growth/bone/fusion stimulator
Implanted drug infusion device
Any type of prosthesis/implant (eye, penile, etc.)
Eyelid spring or wire
Artificial or prosthetic limb
Radiation seeds or implants
Tissue expander

(and the lists goes on....)

When I see it in black and white, written down on a form, I have to
laugh at how cyborgization of body is an every day affair.

Natasha"
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 13 02:37:36 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:37:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



Hey, cool!

...According to the report, "a single kilometer-wide band of geosynchronous
earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly equal the
amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional oil
reserves on Earth today."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301479,00.html

{8-]

spike







From aiguy at comcast.net  Sat Oct 13 03:44:25 2007
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:44:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <009a01c80d4b$5971aef0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>

In what form is the energy being beamed back to Earth?

If Microwaves or lasers this sounds like it could easily be used as a war
machine making it a high value
target in any conflict we are likely to find ourselves in.

Also if the targeting system was ever hacked or malfunctioned it could
become a more powerful terrorist weapon than an
atomic bomb by lighting major cities a blaze or bombarding highly populated
areas with intense microwaves.

I would love for this form of power be the solution to all of our energy
problems but I can't see this happening without 
major opposition from other countries and skeptics who would fear the worst
perhaps with good reason. 

I understand that the government would build in lots of failsafe mechanisms.
But sell other countries and the average
American on the infallibility of such a system would be nearly impossible.

When I compare this in my mind to new nuclear designs, the nuclear seems a
lot less controversial and easier to 
implement and we're have trouble getting any of those approved.


>> Hey, cool!

...According to the report, "a single kilometer-wide band of geosynchronous
earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly equal the
amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional oil
reserves on Earth today."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301479,00.html

{8-]

spike





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date: 10/11/2007
3:09 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date: 10/11/2007
3:09 PM
 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct 13 04:39:48 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:39:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <009a01c80d4b$5971aef0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<009a01c80d4b$5971aef0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <1192250321_71738@S1.cableone.net>

At 08:44 PM 10/12/2007, you wrote:
>In what form is the energy being beamed back to Earth?
>
>If Microwaves or lasers this sounds like it could easily be used as a war
>machine making it a high value
>target in any conflict we are likely to find ourselves in.

This was developed back in the heart of the cold war, so the design 
was such that they could not be used as weapons.  The microwave beam 
is only about 1/4 as intense as sunlight for that reason (but the 
collector are a lot more efficient and less expensive).  They can't 
be focused any better because they are at the diffraction limit for 
the wavelength being generated by the transmitting 
antenna.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk

Put in the numbers for the distance to GEO and the wave length and 
the transmission diameter

>Also if the targeting system was ever hacked or malfunctioned it could
>become a more powerful terrorist weapon than an
>atomic bomb by lighting major cities a blaze or bombarding highly populated
>areas with intense microwaves.

In order for the power to come down where it is wanted, the designers 
had to use a pilot beam that phases all the transmitters.  If that 
failed, the transmitter disk went incoherent and the microwaves no 
longer focused.  Now you could capture the beam with a mobile pilot 
beam transmitter and drive from a rectenna into town dragging the 
beam along with you.  But it's not much of a weapon when it will only 
add about 25% to the sunlight and can be warded off by a tinfoil hat.

Lasers, because they have a *much* shorter wavelength are a different 
story.  I once did a story (though I can't find it now) about someone 
on a speaking platform who calls for ghod to strike him down if he is 
not telling the truth.  There is a shaft of light from the heavens 
and a cloud of smoke drift's downwind.

>I would love for this form of power be the solution to all of our energy
>problems but I can't see this happening without
>major opposition from other countries and skeptics who would fear the worst
>perhaps with good reason.

There is a decent case to be made (I made it here recently) that SPS 
energy could get down to the point of making dollar a gallon 
fuel.  There is no other carbon free method for making baseload power 
except nuclear.

>I understand that the government would build in lots of failsafe mechanisms.
>But sell other countries and the average
>American on the infallibility of such a system would be nearly impossible.
>
>When I compare this in my mind to new nuclear designs, the nuclear seems a
>lot less controversial and easier to
>implement and we're have trouble getting any of those approved.

There is an unrecognized problem with anything that generates 
neutrons.  They can be used with a little plumbing and some depleted 
uranium to make exceptionally high grade plutonium, stuff you can 
convert into bombs with the resources of a decent sized street gang.

The *big* problem with SPS is getting 2000 tons a day out to 
GEO.  Think 2 Saturn 5 launches an hour.  But if you can make a 
moving cable space elevator, you can do it with a big motor driving the cable.

Keith




From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Oct 13 12:48:25 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:48:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>

On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 07:37:36PM -0700, Spike wrote:

> ...According to the report, "a single kilometer-wide band of geosynchronous
> earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly equal the
> amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional oil
> reserves on Earth today."
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301479,00.html

IIRC 0.0001 of total insolation on Earth surface is enough to 
cover humanity's current energy needs.

You don't need to launch your house into space, it can
stay right where it is.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullenergiehaus
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plusenergiehaus

Plenty of links there.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From aiguy at comcast.net  Sat Oct 13 14:05:14 2007
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:05:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
References: <f7bfe5740710121030w598c241q195aaa5849a66115@mail.gmail.com><200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Eugene said "You don't need to launch your house into space, it can stay
right where it is."

Traditional solar energy and solar efficient home designs may be practical
for those living in the sunbelt or the desert but for those of us with snow
and grey sky much of the year we're still going to have to depend on other
sources of power.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1067 - Release Date: 10/12/2007
6:02 PM
 



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Oct 13 07:07:54 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:07:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>

Does anyone know what the danger is from geosynchronous "space junk"?   
I would expect most of the junk is in lower orbits but it seems like a  
good thing to know in planning such a large orbital project.

- samantha

On Oct 12, 2007, at 7:37 PM, Spike wrote:

>
>
> Hey, cool!
>
> ...According to the report, "a single kilometer-wide band of  
> geosynchronous
> earth orbit experiences enough solar flux in one year to nearly  
> equal the
> amount of energy contained within all known recoverable conventional  
> oil
> reserves on Earth today."
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301479,00.html
>
> {8-]
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Oct 12 04:49:58 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:49:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Progressives
In-Reply-To: <008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
	<a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
	<470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com>
	<008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
Message-ID: <1025FED3-32BF-4E65-AB54-E63B1141AAC3@mac.com>

Personally I don't use such simplistic labels for myself or anyone  
else as "progressive".  I thought we all claimed "upwinger" or some  
such anyway.

- s



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Oct 13 14:48:41 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:48:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
Message-ID: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 10:05:14AM -0400, Gary Miller wrote:

> Traditional solar energy and solar efficient home designs may be practical
> for those living in the sunbelt or the desert but for those of us with snow

Look at the links I sent. Germany and Switzerland can hardly be called 
the sunbelt. 

> and grey sky much of the year we're still going to have to depend on other

Diffuse light is still light. Good insulation is equally important both 
for hot and cold climates. In coastal regions/north there's typically 
plenty of wind, which is also just the big fusion plant in the sky,
repackaged. So is hydro, and so is fossil (at a lousy efficiency),
and so is biomass. Even fissible elements have been produced in
stellar explosions.

> sources of power.

There are not many people living around the arctic circle.
There's plenty of daylight during the summer there, and you have to
do something about the winter, agreed.

I'm not dissing solar satellites. Far from it. But that's not how
you get away from burning dead dinos. Small and cheap and DIY is
the ticket.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Oct 13 14:49:32 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:49:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] META: moderation notice
Message-ID: <20071013144932.GS4005@leitl.org>


Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> is no longer on moderation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 13 15:41:12 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:41:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/13/07, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
> I'm not dissing solar satellites. Far from it. But that's not how
> you get away from burning dead dinos. Small and cheap and DIY is
> the ticket.
>

Article in today's Times newspaper:
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2648540.ece>

Saving energy at home could take 200 years to repay its cost.

The Energy Performance Certificates which are now required with all
Home Information Packs for houses with three or more bedrooms list
eight measures to secure a high rating of A or B against a poor rating
of F or G.

But the study from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors shows
that some of the measures, such as solar panels to heat water, would
cost ?5,000 to install but reduce average bills by only ?24 a year and
would take about 208 years to pay back.
-----------------

The RICS Excel spreadsheet is here:
<http://www.building.co.uk/Journals/Builder_Group/Building/2007_issue_41/attachments/BCIS%20Research%20on%20Payback%20Times%20for%20EPCs.xls>

-------------------

Some of the comments on the article say that their cost figures seem
high. I suspect this is because they have assumed professional
installation not DIY.

Cavity wall insulation seems to be the only worthwhile enhancement to
pay contractors to install.  If you are fit, then DIY loft insulation
is also worth doing.

Legislation in the UK stops DIY work on gas and electrical installations.

So solar power has to have a substantial cost reduction before it
becomes practical. I keep reading articles predicting cost
breakthroughs in solar cells, so hopefully price reductions will be
coming soon.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 13 17:28:01 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:28:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710131727.l9DHRtns018504@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
> 
> But the study from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors shows
> that some of the measures, such as solar panels to heat water, would
> cost ?5,000 to install but reduce average bills by only ?24 a year and
> would take about 208 years to pay back.... BillK


Bill, once interest is taken into account, this is a dead loss, no payback
in 200 years or ever.  There are conservation measures which have a payback
in excess of current interest rates, such as installation of solar water
heating and in some cases PV panels.

It is actually a threat to renewable energy sources when investments are
made which fail to return at least the prime lending rate.  We had that
situation in the states back in the 70s and early 80s when some state
governments subsidized solar collectors, most of which were quietly removed
after some time.

spike








From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct 13 18:03:44 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:03:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1192298558_88565@S4.cableone.net>

At 12:07 AM 10/13/2007, samantha wrote:
>Does anyone know what the danger is from geosynchronous "space junk"?
>I would expect most of the junk is in lower orbits but it seems like a
>good thing to know in planning such a large orbital project.

If you are *in* GEO, it's all going the same speed.

But re "junk," a critical part of a space elevator project would be 
to clean up as much as you could, both because you don't want it 
banging into and cutting the cables and because you *need* the junk 
for the space elevator counterweight.

If you have more junk than you need, you store it at the GEO 
station.  Very large masses at GEO make the consequences of a cable 
cut less of a problem.

Keith 



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Oct 13 18:35:09 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:35:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071013183509.GU4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 04:41:12PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Article in today's Times newspaper:
> <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2648540.ece>
> 
> Saving energy at home could take 200 years to repay its cost.

Bulllllllshit. Saving is all about the costs.

http://www.passivhaustagung.de/Passivhaus_D/Graue_Energie_und_Passivhaus_2007.htm

This is not just money, this is energy ROI over life time.
 
> The Energy Performance Certificates which are now required with all
> Home Information Packs for houses with three or more bedrooms list
> eight measures to secure a high rating of A or B against a poor rating
> of F or G.
> 
> But the study from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors shows
> that some of the measures, such as solar panels to heat water, would
> cost ?5,000 to install but reduce average bills by only ?24 a year and

How about 60% less heating costs, every year?

> would take about 208 years to pay back.

How about after 8 years, worst case?

> Some of the comments on the article say that their cost figures seem
> high. I suspect this is because they have assumed professional
> installation not DIY.

8 years is for professional installation. DIY is probably 3-5 years.
 
> Cavity wall insulation seems to be the only worthwhile enhancement to

Insulation is the investment with highest ROI. Solar thermal is the next
item. Somewhen much later is lighting.

http://www.economist.com/surveys/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9217972

Irrational incandescence indeed.

> pay contractors to install.  If you are fit, then DIY loft insulation
> is also worth doing.
> 
> Legislation in the UK stops DIY work on gas and electrical installations.

Sounds like a good thing. Certainly not a show-stopper.
 
> So solar power has to have a substantial cost reduction before it
> becomes practical. I keep reading articles predicting cost

If I drive around the neighborhood, I would say that solar has become
practical a decade ago, at least. Did I mention that the place I rent
out is heated by geothermal, Kalina cycle?

> breakthroughs in solar cells, so hopefully price reductions will be
> coming soon.

PV is only about electricity. Crossover outside of niches (it has already
occured in temporal and spatial niches) there should happen within the next
decade, depending on development of fossil costs and whether the market
can meet demand, so that prices don't stay up.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dmasten at piratelabs.org  Sat Oct 13 18:52:09 2007
From: dmasten at piratelabs.org (David Masten)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:52:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 00:07 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Does anyone know what the danger is from geosynchronous "space junk"?   
> I would expect most of the junk is in lower orbits but it seems like a  
> good thing to know in planning such a large orbital project.

Somewhere between minimal and none. Satellite operators pretty much own
their 'slots' in practice so they keep their slots clean - retired
satellites are put in a lower junkyard orbit.

But this raises an interesting question - what slots are these space
solar satellites going to occupy? Most of the useful slots (i.e. the
ones visible from industrialized nations) are already filled.

Dave 



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Oct 13 19:22:38 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:22:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710131727.l9DHRtns018504@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710131727.l9DHRtns018504@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20071013192238.GY4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 10:28:01AM -0700, Spike wrote:

> Bill, once interest is taken into account, this is a dead loss, no payback

Spike, you took his numbers at face value. The numbers are complete bogus.

> in 200 years or ever.  There are conservation measures which have a payback

If I take interest into account, I'm losing money at 4.5% day account
(I'm only keeping a modest sum there because I can pull it out within hours,
and the bank is reinsured against bankruptcy). I'm losing money because the
real inflation rate is considerably higher than the 2-3% officially reported.

Any higher interest requires committing for longer. Sorry, can't do that, Dave.
The U.S. dollar is teetring on the brink of the collapse, and once the US
economy has tanked (it is currently in the process), the rest of the world 
is very soon to go boom, like a lead baloon.

We used to have discussions here about irrational exhuberance, and the hyperboom
market being the outskirts of the Singularity, etc. Several of us here were warning
it was a bubble. Well, it was a bubble, and many people here took considerable
hits after .bomb. Some people (not necessarily here0 even lost their complete assets 
they saved up for retirement.

Then, we had the housing bubble. It was also quite clear it was a bubble, about
to pop. It popped, and will continue deflating for the next year, or so, until the
regular niveau (slightly above half, or less of peak) is reached.

Okay, I hate to sound like Kassandra, but there is another one coming. 
And it's nasty. Make your preparations.

> in excess of current interest rates, such as installation of solar water

I consider me buying a wood/coal oven, investing in insulation and passive solar
and geothermy an excellent investment, anticipating a giant hike of methane prices,
and quite likely outages. Methane is great, except it comes from a single source,
and you can't store it. Oops.

> heating and in some cases PV panels.
> 
> It is actually a threat to renewable energy sources when investments are
> made which fail to return at least the prime lending rate.  We had that
> situation in the states back in the 70s and early 80s when some state
> governments subsidized solar collectors, most of which were quietly removed
> after some time.

>From what little I know about, the U.S. technology back then was crud.
Solar industry is booming over here (some 300 k jobs there -- this means
a lot in the current economy and the small population size). There's probably
a reason why it is booming. 

I'll make another prediction (hey, these are cheap), and wage that burning
dead dinos will become a rapidly shrinking item in another decade, tops in 
in two.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From aiguy at comcast.net  Sat Oct 13 19:50:46 2007
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:50:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071013183509.GU4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org><00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2><20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org><ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071013183509.GU4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <00e501c80dd2$5f3d3840$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>

>> Insulation is the investment with highest ROI. Solar thermal is the next
item. Somewhen much later is lighting 

There is quite a bit of concern with too much insulation making a house too
airtight and causing it to accumulate too high of concentrations of carbon
dioxide, carbon monoxide, fumes from cleaning chemicals, radon, mold, smoke
particles from cooking, fireplaces, and second hand smoke, and even the
older types of insulation typical in the 70's itself.  

http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001201-d001300/d001242/d001242.html


Some of these contaminents can be removed by HEPA filtration systems but
many of units sold are not effective at removing enough of the smaller
particles.

Ground Pile Geothermal in this article is being quoted as having a 3.8 year
payback.

http://www.geothermie.de/oberflaechennahe/description_of_ground_source_typ.h
tm

But back about 5 years ago when I was thinking of converting my traditional
electric furnace system to a ground pile system the payback worked out to
about 8 years for some reason, so I didn't go foreward with it.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1067 - Release Date: 10/12/2007
6:02 PM
 



From jonkc at att.net  Sat Oct 13 20:09:57 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:09:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org><00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>

"Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org>

> I'm not dissing solar satellites. Far from it. But that's not how you get
> away from burning dead dinos. Small and cheap and DIY is the ticket.

And I'm not dissing insulation or solar heating or getting rid of
incandescent light bulbs, but as you say all these things are very small
and if you want to get away from dead dinosaurs somebody is going to
have find something HUGE. It would take 84 square miles of photovoltaic
cells to equal the energy of one gas station according to the CEO of Exxon.
In the USA alone there are about 20,000 gas stations.

It seems to me that the only technology able to take a significant chunk out
of oil right now is nuclear fission. Fusion maybe someday, although from
the 1950's it's always been 30 years away.

John K Clark




From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 13 20:35:37 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:35:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071013192238.GY4005@leitl.org>
References: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710131727.l9DHRtns018504@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071013192238.GY4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710131335o6dad578ema137dad606de7e56@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/13/07, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>
> Spike, you took his numbers at face value. The numbers are complete bogus.
>


The numbers are issued by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors.
Every house that is bought and sold in the UK is surveyed and reported
on by their members. I doubt that they intend to ruin their reputation
by producing rubbish figures.

Their spreadsheet says a typical price for a home solar water heater,
Thermal Panels, (flat plate type), professionally installed, would be
?5,000. A quick Google of UK prices indicates that this is not a
ridiculous figure.

They estimate an energy saving of ?24 per year. This is where the
finger in the air assumptions enter. Water heating is estimated at 25%
to 30% of the total home energy bill. Solar panels may save up to 50%
of this, depending on latitude, shade, building alignment, etc. And a
solar system uses mains electricity to drive the pumps. There are
actually about a dozen variables, with assumptions, that should be
included, so really it is anybody's guess. (And fuel prices in the UK
are probably different to Germany).

But so far, in the UK, it is not at all obvious that everyone should
rush out and get solar water heating installed. Wait and see is safer
at present.

BillK


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sat Oct 13 22:56:52 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:56:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>

At 01:09 PM 10/13/2007, John K Clark wrote:

>And I'm not dissing insulation or solar heating or getting rid of
>incandescent light bulbs, but as you say all these things are very small
>and if you want to get away from dead dinosaurs somebody is going to
>have find something HUGE.

That's why I worked backwards from doing something HUGE, replacing 
all US coal plants in a year.  That's where 2000 tons a day to GEO comes from.

>It would take 84 square miles of photovoltaic
>cells to equal the energy of one gas station according to the CEO of Exxon.
>In the USA alone there are about 20,000 gas stations.
>
>It seems to me that the only technology able to take a significant chunk out
>of oil right now is nuclear fission. Fusion maybe someday, although from
>the 1950's it's always been 30 years away.

Both fusion and fission generate neutrons.  There is a really big 
problem in that neutrons can be silently diverted into making Pu 
239.  The problem will only be recognized when a city is terror nuked 
without warning.

Also, the biggest use of oil is transport fuel, and that not easy to 
displace with fission.  It can be done, but the resultant fuel will 
be very expensive.  See my discussion on dollar gasoline here a while back.

Keith 



From ka.aly at luxsci.net  Sat Oct 13 22:52:27 2007
From: ka.aly at luxsci.net (Khaled Aly)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:52:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Progressives
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com><65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com><7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com><43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com><580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com><FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com><1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org><A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com><B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com><a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com><470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com><008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1025FED3-32BF-4E65-AB54-E63B1141AAC3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <011801c80deb$bee7d840$5ca367d4@pcd>

From: "Samantha Atkins" <sjatkins at mac.com>
| Personally I don't use such simplistic labels for myself or anyone
| else as "progressive".  I thought we all claimed "upwinger" or some
| such anyway.
|
** Regardless of the original topic where the term has occured, which I 
couldn't locate- not sure if you're against it in terms of a political 
direction, or of an overly simplistic labels.  I quote once more from the 
American Heritage dictionary "Progressive: 1. Moving forward; advancing; . . 
. 2. Promoting or favoring polticial reform ; liberal  ... etc.

** I am just curious why you consider it a simplistic label. I'm mainly 
asking because I happen to strongly believe in the word. The opposite is 
"bakward thinking". And the neutral non-contrary would be "stallment". I am 
not American and I have no right to argue naming conventions of political 
wings, if that's the issue here. But I think if the world, with its east and 
west, Christian and Moslem and Jewish and other populations and 'faiths', 
did not think progressively; we will never get out of the current global 
violence swamp that is indeed going to impact just about every nation on 
Earth. Easily foresee a third world war developing in southwestern Asia 
because non of the parties involved (help me count how many) is thinking 
progressively enough. In my own "poor" interpretation of the very word, that 
would be getting over minor ritual differences and unyielding conflicts of 
interest for the overall benefit of humanity. Both (or rather either) of the 
costs of ongoing wars and/or the wealth gained by the polynomial rise in oil 
prices could have fixed most of the indecent regimes that gain credibility 
by their people merely due to their falsely presented economical conditions. 
Progressive may equal "Don't beat them, don't fight them, educate them". 
It's much easier and it costs much less. Educate them the basic and applied 
sciences. Then only they will be able to make qualified about the relation 
of religion to politics.


From: "Lee Corbin" <lcorbin at rawbw.com>
| The very psychology of changing labels---if not orientations---is very 
interesting
| and reflects something about our thought processes (or at least about the 
thought
| processes of some of us).

** Well yes, the thought process is supposed and meant to be evolutionary. 
Changing labels is probably a psychological reaction to the commonly used 
labels beginning to lose content, and hence lose value. These are not taboos 
or stereotypes but expressions of thought and behavior. I feel it is 
perfectly OK to think outside the mainstream academic realm of social and 
political terms. The word reflects the culture of inducing changes. Wouldn't 
you agree that "Change is the only constant"?

What was the initial debate about BTW :)

Cheers
ka 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Oct 13 23:57:52 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:57:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Progressives
In-Reply-To: <011801c80deb$bee7d840$5ca367d4@pcd>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
	<a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
	<470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com>
	<008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1025FED3-32BF-4E65-AB54-E63B1141AAC3@mac.com>
	<011801c80deb$bee7d840$5ca367d4@pcd>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071013185427.023a4588@satx.rr.com>

At 12:52 AM 10/14/2007 +0200, Khaled Aly <ka.aly at luxsci.net> wrote:

>Progressive may equal "Don't beat them, don't fight them, educate them".
>It's much easier and it costs much less. Educate them the basic and applied
>sciences.

People tried to do that in the USA, but it didn't seem to take very 
well, or at any rate very widely. It's extremely disheartening to see 
how many of the major names in US science came from somewhere else.  :(

>Then only they will be able to make qualified about the relation
>of religion to politics.

See above.

Damien Broderick



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 14 04:03:12 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:03:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] SciFi Realty Progam Looking for Volunteers
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV586CCBDD411BF25CC3C7FA3A20@phx.gbl>

 

 

http://www.scifi.com/braintrust/

 

 

Calling all Geniuses! 

SCI FI is casting a new reality pilot called "Brain Trust"! 

We're looking for geniuses from all walks of life to become part of Sci Fi's
"Brain Trust" -- a super-smart swat team to tackle previously unsolvable
problems. But we're leaving global warming and world peace to the other guys
-- the "Brain Trust" will solve the every-day, insidious annoyances that vex
us all. What's the most efficient strategy to snag the best parking spot at
the mall? How can you make it statistically more likely that you'll get some
action tonight? SCI FI is going to put the best minds and most original
thinkers on the case! 

We're looking for people from all disciplines and all walks of life -- from
rocket scientists to backyard inventors to puzzle fanatics. The only
requirements are ingenuity, a knack for out of the box problem solving, and
an outgoing personality! 

Think you're up for it? E-mail  <mailto:casting at idiotboxproductions.com>
casting at idiotboxproductions.com with your name, address, contact info, age,
and a recent picture. Plus, provide detailed answers to the following
questions: 

1.      What is your educational background? 

2.      What do you do for a living? 

3.      Are you a genius? If so, how has this affected your life? 

4.      Do you have any intellectually rigorous hobbies? How about
not-so-intellectually rigorous hobbies? 

5.      How would your friends describe your personality? 

6.      If you could put the greatest minds in the country together to solve
a single everyday problem OF NO MAJOR SOCIAL IMPORTANCE (i.e. developing a
theory of how to pick the fastest line at the supermarket), what would it
be? And what out of the box approach would you use to solve it? 

Or, if you're feeling creative (and we like creative!), give us your answers
on video, and send the DVD to: 

Idiot Box Productions
c/o Casting Department
1419 Wilcox, Suite B
Hollywood, Calif. 90028



Casting only lasts for a couple weeks, so send your submissions in ASAP!

 

Posted by James Clement

 

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From jonkc at att.net  Sun Oct 14 05:10:47 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:10:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org><00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2><20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org><001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <012001c80e20$9a5c9440$51054e0c@MyComputer>

"hkhenson" <hkhenson at rogers.com>
> The microwave beam is only about 1/4 as intense as sunlight

If you just wanted it to produce enough energy to just run the cars in the
USA the solar satellite in Geosynchronous orbit would look larger than the
full moon as seen on the Earth, and the receiving antenna would cover
several of the larger states in the western USA. Just doesn't sound terribly
practical to me.

> Both fusion and fission generate neutrons.

Not all fusion reactions produce neutrons. The fusion reaction between non
radioactive deuterium (Hydrogen 2) and non radioactive Helium 3 produces
non radioactive Helium 4, an easily controlled proton, 18.3 mev of energy,
and most important of all, no neutrons.

Unfortunately you need a higher temperature to achieve it than the
deuterium tritium reaction most are talking about. Also, there is not much
Helium 3 on the Earth, although there is probably a lot of it that could be
mined on comets and on the ice moons of the outer planets. Obviously this
is not exactly a short term solution; if regular fusion is always 30 years
away then Helium 3 will happen 30 years after that.

> neutrons can be silently diverted into making Pu 239.

That is true, in fact you don't even need to do any secret diverting, all
nuclear power reactors produce Plutonium, it can't be prevented. However
as we've already made thousands of tons of the stuff and you only need
about 10 pounds to make a bomb the cat is already out of the bag; I'm
not sure a little more Plutonium in the world will make things substantially
more dangerous than it already is.

 John K Clark





From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Oct 14 05:46:05 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:46:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>


On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
>
> Both fusion and fission generate neutrons.  There is a really big
> problem in that neutrons can be silently diverted into making Pu
> 239. The problem will only be recognized when a city is terror nuked
> without warning.
>

I have heard it said that such usages to produce Pu 239 is not a  
simple process and leaves telltales allowing detection.   As far as it  
being possible I think this is very well recognized as it is used as  
an argument against countries like Iran developing even supposedly  
peaceful nuclear tecnology.  So I doubt very much we are blind to the  
possibility or require a city being nuked to alert us.


> Also, the biggest use of oil is transport fuel, and that not easy to
> displace with fission.  It can be done, but the resultant fuel will
> be very expensive.  See my discussion on dollar gasoline here a  
> while back.
>

What kind of transport are we talking?  Some 60+% of oil used in the  
US is used by cars and trucks.  How many of them could run just fine  
off of electricity generated by nuclear power?

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sun Oct 14 05:49:05 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:49:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] SciFi Realty Progam Looking for Volunteers
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV586CCBDD411BF25CC3C7FA3A20@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY124-DAV586CCBDD411BF25CC3C7FA3A20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <19A2C7CC-F1CD-428D-8D05-4B7A5424421C@mac.com>


On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:03 PM, James Clement wrote:

>
>
> http://www.scifi.com/braintrust/
>
>
> Calling all Geniuses!
>
> SCI FI is casting a new reality pilot called "Brain Trust"!
>
> We're looking for geniuses from all walks of life to become part of  
> Sci Fi's "Brain Trust" ?? a super?smart swat team to tackle  
> previously unsolvable problems. But we're leaving global warming and  
> world peace to the other guys ?? the "Brain Trust" will solve the  
> every?day, insidious annoyances that vex us all. What's the most  
> efficient strategy to snag the best parking spot at the mall? How  
> can you make it statistically more likely that you'll get some  
> action tonight? SCI FI is going to put the best minds and most  
> original thinkers on the case!

Hopefully such drivel precludes real geniuses from getting involved.   
YAWN.

> Or, if you're feeling creative (and we like creative!), give us your  
> answers on video, and send the DVD to:
> Idiot Box Productions

Hehehehe.  OK, so it was a joke.  Fooled again.  :-)


- samantha

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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Oct 14 06:34:55 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 23:34:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <012001c80e20$9a5c9440$51054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<012001c80e20$9a5c9440$51054e0c@MyComputer>
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From mfj.eav at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 07:23:35 2007
From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:23:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropian Politics
In-Reply-To: <61c8738e0710130912v2594dbey3832d8a6c80da350@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61c8738e0710130912v2594dbey3832d8a6c80da350@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61c8738e0710140023w7be18ddbpf9739c4a030d9aa@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Morris Johnson <mfj.eav at gmail.com>
Date: Oct 13, 2007 9:12 AM
Subject: Extropian Politics
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

can the list post the files attached?

As you can see I may on November 07 become one of the first politicians with
a
background covering bioproducts from the food, fuel and pharma areas.....
As well being part of the mangerial team overseeing  the public medicare
system with a view to
not just emeliorate but to augment and improve the human condition.

I would ask for advice from all interested to suggest how to apply the KISS
rule
to explain  notions like SENS and an integrated food/fuel/pharma
bioeconomy to an electorate which generally speaking has very little
knowledge of such AND COME OFF  AS CREDIBLE AND NO SOME KIND OF
UNINTELLIGIBLE GEEKY NUT CAKE.

Morris Johnson
My cel is the preferred phone number days and the land line PM and weekends

-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411 cel
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com<http://www.4xtralifespans.bravehost.com/>
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Extreme Life-Extension ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Leon Kass , Bioethics Advisor to George Herbert Walker Bush,
June 2005



-- 
LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc.
Extropian Agroforestry Ventures  Inc.
306-447-4944
701-240-9411
Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan
Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals
http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan
http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com
megao at sasktel.net,  arla_j at hotmail.com, mfj.eav at gmail.com
extropian.pharmer at gmail.com

Extreme Life-Extension ..."The most dangerous idea on earth"
-Leon Kass , Bioethics Advisor to George Herbert Walker Bush,
June 2005
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From max at maxmore.com  Sun Oct 14 06:02:06 2007
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:02:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Please indicate if you have any one of the following:
In-Reply-To: <470FB7A5.60209@comcast.net>
References: <200710121414.l9CEEmws001958@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>
	<1192207592_37972@S4.cableone.net> <470FB7A5.60209@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200710140602.l9E621ff013048@ms-smtp-02.texas.rr.com>

Damn. I feel like such a fraud as a transhumanist. At present, I have 
ZERO implants--unless you can count my contact lenses.

Max


At 01:06 PM 10/12/2007, you wrote:

>Natasha,
>
>I've got two plates, and a bunch of screws holding my left elbow together.
>
>See: http://home.comcast.net/~brent.allsop/04_12_24_elbow1.jpg
>
>Also, I am a diabetic, so I take insulin, and use a monitoring device to
>know how much I need to take.  [...]
>
>Brent Allsop


Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Sun Oct 14 18:51:13 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:51:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>

At 10:46 PM 10/13/2007, you wrote:

>On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
> >
> > Both fusion and fission generate neutrons.  There is a really big
> > problem in that neutrons can be silently diverted into making Pu
> > 239. The problem will only be recognized when a city is terror nuked
> > without warning.
> >
>
>I have heard it said that such usages to produce Pu 239 is not a
>simple process and leaves telltales allowing detection.   As far as it
>being possible I think this is very well recognized as it is used as
>an argument against countries like Iran developing even supposedly
>peaceful nuclear tecnology.  So I doubt very much we are blind to the
>possibility or require a city being nuked to alert us.

Google "Keith Henson" plutonium

> > Also, the biggest use of oil is transport fuel, and that not easy to
> > displace with fission.  It can be done, but the resultant fuel will
> > be very expensive.  See my discussion on dollar gasoline here a
> > while back.
> >
>
>What kind of transport are we talking?  Some 60+% of oil used in the
>US is used by cars and trucks.  How many of them could run just fine
>off of electricity generated by nuclear power?

Not very many of them.  But even if *half* could, it won't solve the 
carbon and energy problem.

Keith 



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Oct 14 20:19:00 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:19:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>

On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 04:09:57PM -0400, John K Clark wrote:

> And I'm not dissing insulation or solar heating or getting rid of
> incandescent light bulbs, but as you say all these things are very small

They're only small if you're considering them isolated. In terms
of existing public momentum they're huge. In terms of ROI solar satellites
made from current launchers are ridiculous, even using Ukrainian
launchers, which are 7.5 k$/kg for LEO. There will be no solar 
satellites unless the launch costs have dropped by 2 orders of 
magnitude.

Space elevators don't exist. It is not obvious they will ever exist.
They certainly won't exist within next 10-20 years, by which time
renewable energy sources will have radically shrunk the fraction of
fossil and nuclear energy sources in our global budget.

> and if you want to get away from dead dinosaurs somebody is going to
> have find something HUGE. It would take 84 square miles of photovoltaic

Remember, suburbia would be net energy producer. There would be no longer
need for gas stations, or the electric grid (you'd use a local smart grid,
which would load-level among local demand cells). Industry would have to 
care to their own, unless residential surplus will be exported as hydrogen.

> cells to equal the energy of one gas station according to the CEO of Exxon.

Vehicular applications are but a fraction of total energy use, and personally
there's nothing in the physics of transporting 75-90 kg primates which requires
several tons worth of metal, plastic, and an ICE. A few weeks ago I've seen
an electrical scooter which was recharged with solar panels. The panels were
integrated into the vehicle, and unfolded in the back. Effectively, the 
additional space demand is zero. I don't see why a very performant residential
EV vehicle would need more than 1-2 l/100 km diesel equivalent.

> In the USA alone there are about 20,000 gas stations.

Great, we can get rid of 20 k gas stations, and the infrastructure
to supply them. Tankers, refineries, and we can actually use dead dinos
for chemistry, not burning them.
 
> It seems to me that the only technology able to take a significant chunk out
> of oil right now is nuclear fission. Fusion maybe someday, although from
> the 1950's it's always been 30 years away.

I'm using fusion right now. It's called PV and solar.

Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to
keep current humanity in business indefinitely. This means there
is no need for additional surfaces, just tiling a fraction of our
existing structures with PV panels.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 20:45:05 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:45:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] stem cell aging
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710141345q6ce2d055g2543cfbba56fc125@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.stowers-institute.org/WhatsNew/pr2007/PR101007.asp

It is widely postulated that a decrease in the number and activity of
stem cells contributes to the aging of human tissue. These changes
could be fundamental to many symptoms of aging such as wrinkling of
skin and decreased organ function.

     The control of stem cell aging has, until now, been poorly
understood, but the Xie Lab has demonstrated that specific factors are
associated with an age-dependent decline in the function of stem cells
and their microenvironment, called a niche.

...

"Inefficient replacement of worn-out cells in adult tissues due to the
declining function of stem cells over time may be a primary cause of
human aging," says Dr. Xie. "If we learn how to slow down stem cell
aging by manipulating functions of stem cells and/or their niche, we
may be able to slow down human aging and the progression of
age-related degenerative diseases."
--
Best, Jeff Davis

              "Everything's hard till you
                    know how to do it."
                             Ray Charles


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Oct 14 21:01:00 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:01:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] WTA SL meeting on uvvy, Saturday 20th October 1:00 PM PDT
Message-ID: <20071014210100.GI4005@leitl.org>


We're trying to revive the WTA activities in Second Life.
There will be a meeting on planned new focus on location and
type of activities. It would be nice to see a few new avatars
there.

Location and time:

	 WTA SL meeting on uvvy, Saturday 20th October 1:00 PM PDT

(to find it, do a search for uvvy, an teleport to uvvy island).  

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From brentn at freeshell.org  Sun Oct 14 22:55:46 2007
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:55:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
	<1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>


On Oct 13, 2007, at 14:52, David Masten wrote:

> But this raises an interesting question - what slots are these space
> solar satellites going to occupy? Most of the useful slots (i.e. the
> ones visible from industrialized nations) are already filled.

I'd guess they'd try to piggyback slots - i.e. replace communication  
satellites with power satellites with communications relays on them.  
Not like powering the relays would be a problem. :)

B


--
Brent Neal
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>





From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Oct 14 23:18:15 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:18:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
	<1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
	<DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <20071014231815.GR1016@vt11.net>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 06:55:46PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
> On Oct 13, 2007, at 14:52, David Masten wrote:
> 
> > But this raises an interesting question - what slots are these space
> > solar satellites going to occupy? Most of the useful slots (i.e. the
> > ones visible from industrialized nations) are already filled.
> 
> I'd guess they'd try to piggyback slots - i.e. replace communication  
> satellites with power satellites with communications relays on them.  
> Not like powering the relays would be a problem. :)

Many existing comsats already share orbital positions, some operating
on different frequency bands (C/Ku/Ka), others serving as on-orbit
spares.

To make stationkeeping less critical, members of these satellite
constellations are usually kept a few hundred km apart, which is only
a fraction of a degree's difference from the ground, close enough for
one antenna to "see" all of them at once.  Such a wide separation
might even be enough to squeeze in a large SPS collector.

 
> B
> 
> --
> Brent Neal
> http://brentn.freeshell.org
> <brentn at freeshell.org>

-- 
Jordan.


From jnh at vt11.net  Sun Oct 14 23:06:29 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:06:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 10:19:00PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I'm using fusion right now. It's called PV and solar.

Have you watched your PV system's activity during sudden changes in
cloudcover?  Mine will drop to 10% of full-sun production as a heavy
cloud rolls in, going from net energy export to import within about
five seconds, and reversing just as quickly as the sun breaks through.

This extreme variability is fine so long as solar amounts to only a
small fraction of total grid generation, as it is now.  Spinning
reserves at nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden
shortfalls, keeping frequency and voltage within spec.  But, there are
limits as to how much non-dispatchable generation existing grids can
accomodate.  Getting beyond about 20% renewables (still room for 5-10x
growth), or trying to use PV & Wind for baseload generation will
require very large-scale energy storage-- something better than pumped
hydro and lead-acid batteries (even today, PbA is still the best
option for off-grid sites, sadly).

At least one US utility has been experimenting with large,
megawatt-sized NaS batteries, deployed to substations for
peak-shaving.  These could form part of the solution, perhaps
supplemented by super-cap banks and intellient load shedding, but a
stable grid will probably always need at least a few large,
traditional baseload plants.  In Europe, France's existing fleet of
nukes might fill this role for a while.  Areas with a lot of existing
hydro (northwestern US & Canada, Quebec...) may be able to go 100%
renewable early on.

> Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to
> keep current humanity in business indefinitely.

At 100% collection efficiency?  Or the 14% (minus weather effects,
shading, and conversion losses) of current-tech PV?

-- 
Jordan.


From aiguy at comcast.net  Mon Oct 15 00:03:01 2007
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:03:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org><001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer><20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
	<20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <016901c80ebe$c06ad0e0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>

Jordan said "Have you watched your PV system's activity during sudden
changes in cloudcover?  Mine will drop to 10% of full-sun production as a
heavy cloud rolls in, going from net energy export to import within about
five seconds, and reversing just as quickly as the sun breaks through" 


But isn't the point that if enough users having PV systems then it's not
cloudy everywhere at once so they compensate for each other.

And even now supposedly if generators in Western PA go out the power grids
in Ohio are supposed to kick in and provide the needed electricity to
compensate.

The batteries would still be necessary to provide night power of course and
I still think there would need to be big jump in solar cell efficiency in
order for people living in the snowbelt to generate sufficient energy in the
winter months.

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: 10/13/2007
7:26 PM
 



From aiguy at comcast.net  Sun Oct 14 23:54:45 2007
From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:54:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org><001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer><20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
	<20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <016801c80ebd$9bef7af0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>

 

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Hazen
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:06 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 10:19:00PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I'm using fusion right now. It's called PV and solar.

Have you watched your PV system's activity during sudden changes in
cloudcover?  Mine will drop to 10% of full-sun production as a heavy cloud
rolls in, going from net energy export to import within about five seconds,
and reversing just as quickly as the sun breaks through.

This extreme variability is fine so long as solar amounts to only a small
fraction of total grid generation, as it is now.  Spinning reserves at
nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden shortfalls, keeping
frequency and voltage within spec.  But, there are limits as to how much
non-dispatchable generation existing grids can accomodate.  Getting beyond
about 20% renewables (still room for 5-10x growth), or trying to use PV &
Wind for baseload generation will require very large-scale energy storage--
something better than pumped hydro and lead-acid batteries (even today, PbA
is still the best option for off-grid sites, sadly).

At least one US utility has been experimenting with large, megawatt-sized
NaS batteries, deployed to substations for peak-shaving.  These could form
part of the solution, perhaps supplemented by super-cap banks and intellient
load shedding, but a stable grid will probably always need at least a few
large, traditional baseload plants.  In Europe, France's existing fleet of
nukes might fill this role for a while.  Areas with a lot of existing hydro
(northwestern US & Canada, Quebec...) may be able to go 100% renewable early
on.

> Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to keep 
> current humanity in business indefinitely.

At 100% collection efficiency?  Or the 14% (minus weather effects, shading,
and conversion losses) of current-tech PV?

--
Jordan.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: 10/13/2007
7:26 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: 10/13/2007
7:26 PM
 



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Oct 15 00:28:19 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:28:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] solar and storage
In-Reply-To: <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071014192713.02342a08@satx.rr.com>


>This extreme variability is fine so long as solar amounts to only a
>small fraction of total grid generation, as it is now.  Spinning
>reserves at nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden
>shortfalls, keeping frequency and voltage within spec.

Speaking of spinning, flywheels?

http://www.answers.com/topic/flywheel-energy-storage




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 15 06:59:41 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:59:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
	<1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
	<DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <20071015065941.GJ4005@leitl.org>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 06:55:46PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:

> I'd guess they'd try to piggyback slots - i.e. replace communication  
> satellites with power satellites with communications relays on them.  
> Not like powering the relays would be a problem. :)

There are advantages in dynamic LEO satellite configurations.
You have to maintain a critical density (depends on orbit height)
in order to achieve a smooth handover for Earth-side rectenna
arrays. 

There are multiple technologies which allow you to dramatically
reduce launch costs (high accelerations/small packages, so unsuitable
for large payloads and people), and which get you to LEO.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 15 07:25:05 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:25:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 07:06:29PM -0400, Jordan Hazen wrote:

> Have you watched your PV system's activity during sudden changes in

I don't have one yet -- I'm first exhausting all other easy-ROI options,
such as lighting, wood/coal oven, insulation, power saving. I'm planning a pilot
in a couple of years to run the computers and the LED lighting off
it.

> cloudcover?  Mine will drop to 10% of full-sun production as a heavy

Sounds like monocrystalline cells.

> cloud rolls in, going from net energy export to import within about
> five seconds, and reversing just as quickly as the sun breaks through.

Yeah, you need a buffer. Also, long-term there's no weather nor night
in space.
 
> This extreme variability is fine so long as solar amounts to only a
> small fraction of total grid generation, as it is now.  Spinning

Don't think the grid, think in terms of powering your home with it.
You can buffer local demand spikes by trading with your neighbours,
which is a very local, power microgrid.

> reserves at nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden
> shortfalls, keeping frequency and voltage within spec.  But, there are

What's wrong with DC?

> limits as to how much non-dispatchable generation existing grids can
> accomodate.  Getting beyond about 20% renewables (still room for 5-10x

I agree that current grids are already overloaded with variability
of the renewables. We need to get rid of them. Make the power where
you consume it, buffer slightly, and do conventional large-scale
stuff (which has 2-3 days of thermal inertia, anyway) during the 
night, for time being. 

> growth), or trying to use PV & Wind for baseload generation will
> require very large-scale energy storage-- something better than pumped
> hydro and lead-acid batteries (even today, PbA is still the best

Yes, I'm planning to run my computers off it. I already have everything
on UPS, so that won't be much of a difference. Properly recycled
lead-acid aren't that bad.

> option for off-grid sites, sadly).

A chicken in every pot, a hybrid/EV in every garage.
 
> At least one US utility has been experimenting with large,
> megawatt-sized NaS batteries, deployed to substations for
> peak-shaving.  These could form part of the solution, perhaps
> supplemented by super-cap banks and intellient load shedding, but a
> stable grid will probably always need at least a few large,

I don't see it happening. What I could see happening is that PV
becomes effectively free, and people can afford doing things like
water electrolysis/fuel cell, which are currently not cost effective.

> traditional baseload plants.  In Europe, France's existing fleet of
> nukes might fill this role for a while.  Areas with a lot of existing
> hydro (northwestern US & Canada, Quebec...) may be able to go 100%
> renewable early on.
> 
> > Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to
> > keep current humanity in business indefinitely.
> 
> At 100% collection efficiency?  Or the 14% (minus weather effects,

Solar thermal has nearly quantitative efficiency.

> shading, and conversion losses) of current-tech PV?

I presume it's 100% of what hits the bottom of the gravity well,
with weather factored in. But whether it's 0.0001 or 0.0002, that's
not one heck of a difference. 

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 11:12:38 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:12:38 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>

On 15/10/2007, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> I don't have one yet -- I'm first exhausting all other easy-ROI options,
> such as lighting, wood/coal oven, insulation, power saving. I'm planning a pilot
> in a couple of years to run the computers and the LED lighting off
> it.

LED's have made incredible leaps in the past year or two, going from
an efficiency of around 40 lumens/watt to 100 lumens/watt or more for
devices that can be readily bought for just a few dollars. When you
see a flashlight not much bigger than your thumb using one of these
things light up a room brighter than a clunky 3D Maglight it is clear
that the days of the incandescent lamp are numbered.



Stathis Papaioannou


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 15 11:29:45 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:29:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
	<f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 09:12:38PM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> LED's have made incredible leaps in the past year or two, going from
> an efficiency of around 40 lumens/watt to 100 lumens/watt or more for
> devices that can be readily bought for just a few dollars. When you

The best LEDs (not yet commercially available) have twice the lumens/Watt
of best fluorescents. But the 3 W LED spots you can now buy for 25 EUR are
only useful as reading lights and auxiliary lighting, being the 
equivalent of 20 W halogens in the lit field. However metal halide (HQI) 
are much more cost effective -- a 70 W WDL Osram ceiling flooder is 
sufficient for your living room (150 W would be an overkill, though
WDL is slightly dimmer than NDL, and you might have a large/absorbent
living room), at mere 8 EUR/bulb (good for 12 kHours), and some 120 EUR for the
lamp + electronic ballast.

I think in another 5 years LEDs will be more cost effective than HQI.

> see a flashlight not much bigger than your thumb using one of these
> things light up a room brighter than a clunky 3D Maglight it is clear
> that the days of the incandescent lamp are numbered.

Indeed. And good riddance.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From jnh at vt11.net  Mon Oct 15 15:17:59 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:17:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 09:25:05AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 07:06:29PM -0400, Jordan Hazen wrote:
> 
> > Have you watched your PV system's activity during sudden changes in
> > cloudcover?  Mine will drop to 10% of full-sun production as a heavy
> 
> Sounds like monocrystalline cells.

Mixed mono & polycrystalline array.  I've read that thin-film
amorphous does better in low-light conditions, but haven't seen any
hard numbers, and that type of panel has its own drawbacks.

 
> > This extreme variability is fine so long as solar amounts to only a
> > small fraction of total grid generation, as it is now.  Spinning
> 
> Don't think the grid, think in terms of powering your home with it.


Grid-tie is nice for preventing any waste of PV energy, during times
when production exceeds household load... for example, if you're away
from home during peak sun hours, with most equipment turned off.  At
the scale of an individual household, the grid can be treated as an
infinite storage battery-- feed it excess joules during the day
(turning the meter backwards), and draw them back at night.

On the negative side, typical grid-tie systems have no autonomy, their
inverters being required to shut down during a utility outage
("anti-islanding").  Some can revert to standalone mode, with
batteries for buffering, but at greater cost and lower overall
efficiency, as safety requirements in most areas limit DC battery bus
voltage to a nominal 48V.

 
> > reserves at nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden
> > shortfalls, keeping frequency and voltage within spec.  But, there are
> 
> What's wrong with DC?

At the low DC voltages commonly used off-grid, I^2R losses over any
significant distance (even in house wiring) can be high, unless very
thick conductors are used.  It can work well for low-wattage loads.

For utility-scale transmission and distribution, although DC-DC
voltage converters are gradually improving, they still tends to be far
more expensive, less efficient, and more vulnerable to surges &
spikes, compared to the simple and rugged AC transformer.

High-voltage (700kV - 1M V) DC power transmission is already used in a
few places, though, and may become more popular over time.


For end users, though, there's too much inertia, and legacy equipment
tied to AC for customer power standards to change anytime soon.


(Interestingly, though, most electronics and CFL lighting is perfectly
happy running on DC, at 1.4 times its rated AC line voltage-- i.e.
~160V in 120V countries, or 320V in the EU.  Switchmode power supplies
in this type of equipment tend to immediately rectify the incoming
line, and are sensitive to peak voltage, not RMS.  Active power-factor
correction circuitry may complicate things...)


> > growth), or trying to use PV & Wind for baseload generation will
> > require very large-scale energy storage-- something better than pumped
> > hydro and lead-acid batteries (even today, PbA is still the best
> 
> Yes, I'm planning to run my computers off it. I already have everything
> on UPS, so that won't be much of a difference. Properly recycled
> lead-acid aren't that bad.

Special power supplies are available for running computers directly
from DC.  I do this at home, floating most equipment on a 12V bus, and
avoiding inverter losses.  Just remember the I^2R considerations, and
try to keep all low-voltage cabling as short as possible.

-- 
Jordan.


From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Oct 15 15:23:13 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:23:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Meaning That Immortality Gives to Life
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710150637r16b97238q1ca386e263ca0622@mail.gmail.com>
References: <471302AC.2050506@pobox.com>
	<f21c22e30710150637r16b97238q1ca386e263ca0622@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710150823v7c60ba61sc7f4627867127fa7@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/07, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15/10/2007, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky <sentience at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/10/14/the-meaning-that-immortality-gives-to-life/
>
> Very good essay. Bizarre that one should need to spend rhetorical
> effort to make the point that BEING HIT ON THE HEAD WITH A BASEBALL
> BAT IS BAD.

Yes, an excellent essay. Thanks Eliezer!

In response to some of the subsequent comments however:

It's not bizarre at all that people commonly hold such partially
informed and passionately protected beliefs about aging and death,
religious authority, evolution, morality, or the primacy of the
first-person point of view.

Making a mockery of the target worldview, while attractive, is a
prescription for memetic failure in the bigger picture, unless one's
aim is to strengthen the in-group/out-group distinction.

While I agree with the simple statement that "being hit on the head is
bad", those who think it's all that simple and obvious might find it
edifying to consider the essential role of constraints in any process
of growth.

- Jef


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 15 15:52:36 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:52:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org> <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <20071015155236.GA4005@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:17:59AM -0400, Jordan Hazen wrote:

> Mixed mono & polycrystalline array.  I've read that thin-film
> amorphous does better in low-light conditions, but haven't seen any

It's less low-light than diffuse vs. direct insolation.

> hard numbers, and that type of panel has its own drawbacks.

Yes, but the aging is not nearly as bad now. I wonder how CdTe and
CuInSe2 does these days.
 
> Grid-tie is nice for preventing any waste of PV energy, during times

PV allows you live off the grid, which is otherwise prohibitively
expensive. If we think of it, then water electrolysis is much better
than letting the electrons idle, even if overall efficiency is much worse
than conventional electrochemical storage.

> when production exceeds household load... for example, if you're away
> from home during peak sun hours, with most equipment turned off.  At

You can wash the dishes, or run the washing machine, or an air conditioner.
Or heat your water tank, for later use.

> the scale of an individual household, the grid can be treated as an
> infinite storage battery-- feed it excess joules during the day
> (turning the meter backwards), and draw them back at night.

It sure is nifty, especially since subsidizing panels and selling juice
to the grid at artificially marked up prices makes it actually
cost effective (IIRC last time I looked it took about 50 years 
to economicaly ROI at current electricity prices, which is beyond 
of panel life time). 

I just don't believe in cheating physics with economics, that's why
I omitted that obvious loophole.
 
> On the negative side, typical grid-tie systems have no autonomy, their
> inverters being required to shut down during a utility outage
> ("anti-islanding").  Some can revert to standalone mode, with

I'm thinking about running the prototype autonomous, with no connection
to the main grid. The drain would probably be no more than 50 W tops.

> batteries for buffering, but at greater cost and lower overall
> efficiency, as safety requirements in most areas limit DC battery bus
> voltage to a nominal 48V.

If I roll my own, I don't have that problem. I would still stay way
below 200 V, though.

> > What's wrong with DC?
> 
> At the low DC voltages commonly used off-grid, I^2R losses over any

I don't see much loss on a neighbourly grid of less than 100 m, if 
several 100 V or up to kV are being used.

> significant distance (even in house wiring) can be high, unless very
> thick conductors are used.  It can work well for low-wattage loads.

I'm quite aware of the requirement. I was thinking of hot-soldering 
the connectors to minimize lossage and heating. Copper is expensive,
but there's not much copper in a short, radial-pattern home setting. 
 
> For utility-scale transmission and distribution, although DC-DC
> voltage converters are gradually improving, they still tends to be far
> more expensive, less efficient, and more vulnerable to surges &
> spikes, compared to the simple and rugged AC transformer.

DC-DC does great for powering small devices, and it's really efficient
these days.
 
> High-voltage (700kV - 1M V) DC power transmission is already used in a
> few places, though, and may become more popular over time.

Any idea whether 1 kV would be safe in a thinnish, but properly
insulated earth cable? 
 
> For end users, though, there's too much inertia, and legacy equipment
> tied to AC for customer power standards to change anytime soon.

Isn't the new automobile standard 48 V, or hereabouts? That could be
a kickstarting market.
 
> (Interestingly, though, most electronics and CFL lighting is perfectly

Any idea about HQI, with electronic ballast?

> happy running on DC, at 1.4 times its rated AC line voltage-- i.e.
> ~160V in 120V countries, or 320V in the EU.  Switchmode power supplies
> in this type of equipment tend to immediately rectify the incoming
> line, and are sensitive to peak voltage, not RMS.  Active power-factor
> correction circuitry may complicate things...)

I'm a bit afraid to test it, lest it becomes a real smoke-test.

> Special power supplies are available for running computers directly
> from DC.  I do this at home, floating most equipment on a 12V bus, and

I was thinking about going Mac Mini 24/7/365 instead of my current 1/4 kW
box.

> avoiding inverter losses.  Just remember the I^2R considerations, and
> try to keep all low-voltage cabling as short as possible.

One of the plans is to remove the sea of wall warts, which is ugly as sin,
and cumulates the aggregated losses to some 50 W, or more.

Thanks for all the interesting info. Much appreciated.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From jonkc at att.net  Mon Oct 15 16:23:03 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:23:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org><001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>

"Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org>

> Vehicular applications are but a fraction of total energy use

But that would seem to strengthen my argument not yours.

> A few weeks ago I've seen an electrical scooter which was
> recharged with  solar panels.

Yes, and people could ride to work right now on solar electrical scooters,
but they don't; even in the third world a bicycle is preferred. People will
never want to ride to work on slow, uncomfortable, inconvenient, and
dangerous machines unless there was absolutely no alternative. There will
always be alternatives.

There are limits to of conservation; if somebody invented a cheap gadget
that doubled the fuel efficiency of automobiles fuel consumption would not
be cut in half because then people would be driving bigger more muscular
cars and be taking more and longer trips. The amount of energy used by the
human race can only go up over the years, probably dramatically, and
florescent or even LED light bulbs won't change that.

> Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to
> keep current > humanity in business indefinitely

If that cryptic remark means what I think it does then I'd say it is a very
questionable statistic indeed.

> This means there is no need for additional surfaces, just tiling a
> fraction of our existing structures with PV panels.

It means finding a way to make to make PV panels that are dirt cheap, it
means PV panels that are so efficient and so durable that they produce
more energy over their lifetime than it took to make them, and it means
figuring out what to do at night or on cloudy days. It means your use of
the word "just" may not be entirely accurate.

John K Clark




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Oct 15 17:00:41 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:00:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
	<015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 12:23:03PM -0400, John K Clark wrote:

> > Vehicular applications are but a fraction of total energy use
> 
> But that would seem to strengthen my argument not yours.

It would seem, if you snip the rest of my post. So it would seem.
 
> > A few weeks ago I've seen an electrical scooter which was
> > recharged with  solar panels.
> 
> Yes, and people could ride to work right now on solar electrical scooters,

I just *thought* you would latch on that illustration, and ignore the
rest of my points.

> but they don't; even in the third world a bicycle is preferred. People will

Actually, the electroscooter is huge in the third world. Just not the PV-powered
scooter, but that's a cost issue. Make it cheap, and they will come.

> never want to ride to work on slow, uncomfortable, inconvenient, and
> dangerous machines unless there was absolutely no alternative. There will
> always be alternatives.

Current EVs have excellent driving characteristics. The bottleneck
is traction on the road, not performance. Ranger is not really an
issue in a commuter setting, and hybrids and DMFCs can easily beat
existing systems.
 
> There are limits to of conservation; if somebody invented a cheap gadget
> that doubled the fuel efficiency of automobiles fuel consumption would not
> be cut in half because then people would be driving bigger more muscular

I guess I'm not people. On the average, the european cars are considerably
smaller and more fuel efficient, though there has been some SUV (especially
Cayenne) creep here as well. I think the other day I've even seen the pinnacle 
of primate dominance display, a Hummer. 

Energy is apparently still way too cheap. Not enough folks hurtin'.

> cars and be taking more and longer trips. The amount of energy used by the
> human race can only go up over the years, probably dramatically, and

It will get up dramatically. But in order for it to go up dramatically, we
need solar satellites, and that's a high threshold. Meanwhile, fossil energy
is getting more and more expensive year by year. Rural US certainly seems
to be hurting, according to what I hear. Here's people with a huge commute,
and old clunkers they can't really afford.

> > Remember, 1/10000th of terrestrial insolation is enough to
> > keep current > humanity in business indefinitely
> 
> If that cryptic remark means what I think it does then I'd say it is a very
> questionable statistic indeed.

I don't see what is questionable about it. How does 0.6% of Germany sounds
like? (Germany is reasonably densely populated, most other places would be 
negligible).
 
> > This means there is no need for additional surfaces, just tiling a
> > fraction of our existing structures with PV panels.
> 
> It means finding a way to make to make PV panels that are dirt cheap, it

Right, that's the ticket.

> means PV panels that are so efficient and so durable that they produce
> more energy over their lifetime than it took to make them, and it means

That's a pretty questionable statistic. Even classical PV ROIs energetically
within a couple years, or so. It's just financially it would take some 50
years, in Germany at least. I should run the numbers again. Perhaps things
have changed meanwhile.

> figuring out what to do at night or on cloudy days. It means your use of

I don't know what you do at night, but I sleep, or sit at the computer, or
watch movies. Cloudy days are not night.

> the word "just" may not be entirely accurate.

Maybe I live in an alternative reality, but the place I rent out is heated
(and partly, powered) by geothermal, via 120 C hot water from a few km depth.
I see PV and solar collectors on every second roof, in places. I see farmer
barns covered by PV entirely -- they're making a fair money on it, thanks to
subsidy, but it's real money for them.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 17:10:55 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:10:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org>
	<015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710151010q14ce2a02t654eb43a7c4c0345@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/15/07, John K Clark wrote:
> Yes, and people could ride to work right now on solar electrical scooters,
> but they don't; even in the third world a bicycle is preferred. People will
> never want to ride to work on slow, uncomfortable, inconvenient, and
> dangerous machines unless there was absolutely no alternative. There will
> always be alternatives.
>

See: <http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6212734.html?tag=nl.e622>
China 'e' bikes silently drive lead demand.
Quote:
China produced 19 million battery driven bikes in 2006, and that
figure could rise by 30 percent this year, said Zhang Changhai, lead
analyst with metals consultancy Antaike in Beijing.


>
> It means finding a way to make to make PV panels that are dirt cheap, it
> means PV panels that are so efficient and so durable that they produce
> more energy over their lifetime than it took to make them, and it means
> figuring out what to do at night or on cloudy days. It means your use of
> the word "just" may not be entirely accurate.
>

Yup. PV panels are still too expensive. But the price is coming down.
And home windmills help too.
(If the neighbours or zoning regs don't complain).


BillK


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 17:27:07 2007
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI))
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:27:07 -0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org><015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <004b01c80f50$9ec52660$fe00a8c0@cpd01>

I think we waste a lot of opportunities to generate electricity.
For instance, I don't know if this already exists, but here's an idea 
(stupid idea? Please don't laugh that loud...:-)).
Make sidewalks generate energy with people's footsteps. I know there are 
materials that generate electricity when pressed. Take the most crowded 
sidewalks of any city. The steps of thousands of walkers could probabily 
generate a good amount of energy.

Another stupid idea: A smal generator in a revolving door could charge the 
battery of an emergency light for a room.




From jnh at vt11.net  Mon Oct 15 18:12:09 2007
From: jnh at vt11.net (Jordan Hazen)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:12:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015155236.GA4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org> <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015155236.GA4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20071015181209.GT1016@vt11.net>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 05:52:36PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I'm thinking about running the prototype autonomous, with no connection
> to the main grid. The drain would probably be no more than 50 W tops.

For a 50W constant load, you'll probably want at least 300W of PV.

50W*24 -> 1200 Wh/day, dividing by, say 5 effective sun-hours per day
(look up worst-case winter values for your location) would give a 240W
minimum, but you want a little extra to allow batteries to gradually
recharge after a cloudy day.

Battery requirements depend on how many consecutive low-sun days you
want to allow for.  Four of "golf-cart" size (6V, 220 Ah) would allow
two sunless day's operation without dropping below the recommended 50%
depth-of-discharge limit.

Requirements could be reduced if you're willing to shut down under
adverse conditions, or occasionally recharge from the grid.
 
> DC-DC does great for powering small devices, and it's really efficient
> these days.

Yup.  Non-isolated "buck" converters (common ground, voltage reducing)
can exceed 96%.
  
> Any idea whether 1 kV would be safe in a thinnish, but properly
> insulated earth cable? 

The insulation on most power wiring in the US is rated for only 600V.
I don't know how EU standards compare... your 400V 3-phase would reach
566V peak-to-peak, so perhaps insulation intended for that type of
service is thicker.  Best double-check, though.
 
> > For end users, though, there's too much inertia, and legacy equipment
> > tied to AC for customer power standards to change anytime soon.
> 
> Isn't the new automobile standard 48 V, or hereabouts? That could be
> a kickstarting market.

They're calling that standard "42V", but it's 36V nominal (18 2V cells
in series, equivalent to three 12V batteries), rising to 42V when the
alternator's running.

48V (24 cells; 52-55V float) is a commonly used for for telecom
equipment.  Some countries use a 60V (65-68V float) telco voltage
instead.

  
> > (Interestingly, though, most electronics and CFL lighting is perfectly
> 
> Any idea about HQI, with electronic ballast?

Don't know... I've never tried that type of lighting.
 
> > happy running on DC, at 1.4 times its rated AC line voltage-- i.e.
> > ~160V in 120V countries, or 320V in the EU.  Switchmode power supplies
> > in this type of equipment tend to immediately rectify the incoming
> > line, and are sensitive to peak voltage, not RMS.  Active power-factor
> > correction circuitry may complicate things...)
> 
> I'm a bit afraid to test it, lest it becomes a real smoke-test.

It's best to have a look inside first.  Check where the incoming AC
line goes-- if it connects to anything but a diode rectifier bridge,
don't try it.

Measuring resistance across the AC power contacts (while any 'hard'
power switch is turned on) can be helpful.  Any reading below a few
hundred Kohm would be worrying.  Above that, it may not work, but
shouldn't blow up if you try.  Half-wave rectifiers will want a
particular polarity; full waves don't care.

> > Special power supplies are available for running computers directly
> > from DC.  I do this at home, floating most equipment on a 12V bus, and
> 
> I was thinking about going Mac Mini 24/7/365 instead of my current 1/4 kW
> box.

Consider also a mini-ITX board, or laptop w/ automotive adapter.

> > avoiding inverter losses.  Just remember the I^2R considerations, and
> > try to keep all low-voltage cabling as short as possible.
> 
> One of the plans is to remove the sea of wall warts, which is ugly as sin,
> and cumulates the aggregated losses to some 50 W, or more.

Good idea. I removed the last of those a few months back.  A few
devices depend on the wall-wart's transformer isolation, and need 
extra work to avoid conducted interference, ground loops etc.

-- 
Jordan.


From jonkc at att.net  Mon Oct 15 21:26:24 2007
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:26:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org><015101c80f47$b7f4d670$6a054e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <003501c80f72$1b1a5ca0$e1024e0c@MyComputer>

"Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org>

> It would seem, if you snip the rest of my post. So it would seem.

I have heard others complain about me doing this before, and I am just as
baffled now as I was the first time I heard it. If anyone wants to reread
your entire post it will take them about .9 seconds to find it. Perhaps they
can see what I could not, the thing you said that you think would prove
my response to be wrong.

When I become ruler of the universe and all wizards fear to speak my
name the first thing I will do is pass a law saying if you want to include
quoted material you must laboriously type it all in yourself, every god
damn word, the respond button would not be allowed. I'll bet then we
wouldn't have quotes of quoted of quotes of quotes, of quotes of
quotes of quotes. Oh and don't forget the quotes.

> Actually, the electroscooter is huge in the third world.

Well I don't know about the "electro" part but scooters are big in the third
world, because it's better than walking, and it's all they can afford. In
America we can afford better so the closest thing you are likely to find to
an electric scooter is a Harley-Davidson. And that's not very close.

> On the average, the european cars are considerably smaller and
> more fuel  efficient

True, and the reason is that gas is more expensive in Europe because it is
more highly taxed; if it were as cheap as it is in America then European
cars would get bigger and more powerful because that is the sort of car
most people would prefer to have. Until then most (but certainly not all!)
European cars will look like toys to American eyes.

> Energy is apparently still way too cheap.

Too Cheap?! I just would not consider it as a great monument to
progress if I had to trade in my 306 hp Lexus for some crappy little
1.5 hp scooter that toped out at 18mph. Call me the devil incarnate
if you want but I just would not be a happy man.

> Not enough folks hurtin'.

Eugen I think I've know you long enough to know it is unlikely that you've
suddenly embraced a philosophy common among Christian
fundamentalists, that pain and adversity builds character. I really don't
think that was the point  you were trying to make, but what you were
trying to say I have no idea.

I just hope you haven't watched Al Gore's movie too many times.

> fossil energy is getting more and more expensive year by year.

It may take more pictures of George Washington to buy a gallon of gas,
but as a fraction of income gas is about as cheap as it has ever been.

> the place I rent out is heated (and partly, powered) by geothermal

If you live in Iceland geothermal is a no brainer, it is also an option if
you live in perhaps .7% of the earth's suffice, otherwise you'd better
think of something else.

John K Clark




From scerir at libero.it  Mon Oct 15 21:28:37 2007
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:28:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
References: <ee50357e0710130841qa392c72q93a984fb56e5a0c9@mail.gmail.com><200710131727.l9DHRtns018504@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20071013192238.GY4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <006f01c80f72$59c0e000$61bc1f97@archimede>

Eugen
> I consider me buying a wood/coal oven, 
> investing in insulation and passive solar
> and geothermy an excellent investment, 

don't forget to melanize the backyard
http://tinyurl.com/yp73eg




From russell.wallace at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 01:46:47 2007
From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:46:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Extropian Politics
In-Reply-To: <61c8738e0710140023w7be18ddbpf9739c4a030d9aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61c8738e0710130912v2594dbey3832d8a6c80da350@mail.gmail.com>
	<61c8738e0710140023w7be18ddbpf9739c4a030d9aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8d71341e0710151846p4e37f839q41cb39ce6caebed9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/14/07, Morris Johnson <mfj.eav at gmail.com> wrote:
> can the list post the files attached?

Seem to have come through okay.

> As you can see I may on November 07 become one of the first politicians with
> a
> background covering bioproducts from the food, fuel and pharma areas.....
> As well being part of the mangerial team overseeing  the public medicare
> system with a view to
> not just emeliorate but to augment and improve the human condition.

Good luck!

> I would ask for advice from all interested to suggest how to apply the KISS
> rule
> to explain  notions like SENS and an integrated food/fuel/pharma
> bioeconomy to an electorate which generally speaking has very little
> knowledge of such AND COME OFF  AS CREDIBLE AND NO SOME KIND OF
> UNINTELLIGIBLE GEEKY NUT CAKE.

I don't know how an integrated food/fuel/pharma bioeconomy would work,
or the issues involved, but as far as SENS goes, it seems to me that
the key is to avoid presenting it as immortality, because that's the
domain of religion. In the strict sense it really is - there's no
scientific evidence for the possibility of literally infinite
lifespan. (I'm not claiming to know infinite lifespan to be
impossible, only that there's no evidence for it, so belief therein
has to come down to faith.)

Instead, as others have remarked (I believe there were links posted on
the topic awhile ago), SENS should be regarded as a form of medical
treatment justified not by unintelligible geeky arguments about what
might happen in a million years, but by common sense in the here and
now.

So I think this is one of the two keys to justification of SENS:

If an 8 year old is dying of pneumonia, do we try to treat the disease
or let him die because it's the will of God/nature/fate/whatever?
Every sane and moral person agrees on the former.

If an 80 year old is dying of Alzheimer's, do we try to treat the
disease or let him die because it's the will of blah-blah? Every sane
and moral person should agree on the former. And it's better to tackle
the root cause than only the symptoms. The best way to tackle
Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease and the other myriad conditions of
old age, is to slow down or even partly reverse (not fully - that's
not on the cards in the foreseeable future - but partly) the
deterioration that's the real cause.

The second key is disambiguation of the type missed by the fabled
sorcerer who wished for eternal life but whose genie didn't by default
include eternal youth in the package.

Do I want to live to be 100? Frankly as things stand right now, no, I
don't. The last yea many years of such a lifespan tend to consist of
little but pointless suffering with neither productivity, joy nor
hope. Do I want to be alive _and healthy_ at 100? Damn right I do!
It's commonplace for people to say they'd turn down a longer lifespan,
but how many people over the age of 30 would turn down the opportunity
to look and feel younger? Damn few, judging by the market for cosmetic
treatments that don't even work.

The term "healthspan" has been suggested. Maybe that'll work, maybe
not, I'm not a marketing expert, but the point is that what's being
advocated isn't immortality, nor additional years tacked onto the end
of a life as we currently know it - but the opportunity to stay young
and healthy for longer.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct 16 03:30:40 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 20:30:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power factor correction
In-Reply-To: <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org> <20071015151759.GS1016@vt11.net>
Message-ID: <1192505375_16730@S1.cableone.net>

At 08:17 AM 10/15/2007, Jordan Hazen  wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 09:25:05AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 07:06:29PM -0400, Jordan Hazen wrote:

snip

>On the negative side, typical grid-tie systems have no autonomy, their
>inverters being required to shut down during a utility outage
>("anti-islanding").  Some can revert to standalone mode, with
>batteries for buffering, but at greater cost and lower overall
>efficiency, as safety requirements in most areas limit DC battery bus
>voltage to a nominal 48V.

I have seen it higher, the American Express UPS battery bank was in 
the several hundred volts range.  But that's special industrial, not 
something you would see in a home very often.

> > > reserves at nearby power plants instantly make up any sudden
> > > shortfalls, keeping frequency and voltage within spec.  But, there are
> >
> > What's wrong with DC?
>
>At the low DC voltages commonly used off-grid, I^2R losses over any
>significant distance (even in house wiring) can be high, unless very
>thick conductors are used.  It can work well for low-wattage loads.
>
>For utility-scale transmission and distribution, although DC-DC
>voltage converters are gradually improving, they still tends to be far
>more expensive, less efficient, and more vulnerable to surges &
>spikes, compared to the simple and rugged AC transformer.
>
>High-voltage (700kV - 1M V) DC power transmission is already used in a
>few places, though, and may become more popular over time.
>
>
>For end users, though, there's too much inertia, and legacy equipment
>tied to AC for customer power standards to change anytime soon.
>
>
>(Interestingly, though, most electronics and CFL lighting is perfectly
>happy running on DC, at 1.4 times its rated AC line voltage-- i.e.
>~160V in 120V countries, or 320V in the EU.  Switchmode power supplies
>in this type of equipment tend to immediately rectify the incoming
>line, and are sensitive to peak voltage, not RMS.  Active power-factor
>correction circuitry may complicate things...)

It might, but having recently designed an active power factor 
correction circuit for commercial use, and reviewing the schematics I 
still have on this computer, I think PFC designs could be made to run 
off DC just fine with few if any modifications.  The way they work 
boosting the rectified line voltage to roughly 10% over the AC 
waveform peak, using an inductor and a MOSFET that shorts the 
inductor to ground and a second catch diode that isolates the inductor power.

If you are really serious about understanding what Jordan was talking 
about here is the data sheet for the MC34262 that I used.

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC34262-D.PDF

>Special power supplies are available for running computers directly
>from DC.  I do this at home, floating most equipment on a 12V bus, and
>avoiding inverter losses.  Just remember the I^2R considerations, and
>try to keep all low-voltage cabling as short as possible.

Jordan knows what he is talking about here.

With respect to up/down conversion loses, transformers give you lower 
loses than boost/buck circuits.  And above about a 6 to one voltage 
ratio, boost/buck circuits are not as efficient as switching circuits 
and transformers.

Keith Henson 



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Oct 16 03:19:45 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:19:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
	<f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <200710160321.l9G3LJj62213@unreasonable.com>

Stathis wrote:

>see a flashlight not much bigger than your thumb using one of these 
>things light up a room brighter than a clunky 3D Maglight it is 
>clear that the days of the incandescent lamp are numbered.

Eugen replied:

>Indeed. And good riddance.

But don't get rid of that MagLite. When my daughter just replaced her 
stolen car, the first thing I offered to pay for was a MagLite to 
replace the one I'd gotten her for her old car. That itty bitty LED 
flashlight ain't gonna do much to protect her.

BTW, the Mini MagLite (the AA size flashlight) can also serve as a 
weapon; Mas Ayoob has a class that's essentially on how to.


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Oct 16 08:52:14 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:52:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710160321.l9G3LJj62213@unreasonable.com>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
	<f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>
	<200710160321.l9G3LJj62213@unreasonable.com>
Message-ID: <20071016085214.GJ4005@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 11:19:45PM -0400, David Lubkin wrote:

> But don't get rid of that MagLite. When my daughter just replaced her 
> stolen car, the first thing I offered to pay for was a MagLite to 
> replace the one I'd gotten her for her old car. That itty bitty LED 
> flashlight ain't gonna do much to protect her.

I would move away to a place where cars don't get stolen and
streets are safe of nights for women.

I'm serious; one of the reasons that I am where I am is because
nothing ever happens here.
 
> BTW, the Mini MagLite (the AA size flashlight) can also serve as a 
> weapon; Mas Ayoob has a class that's essentially on how to.

How about a taser, or a gun, and martial arts training?

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 09:24:20 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:24:20 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071016085214.GJ4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
	<f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>
	<200710160321.l9G3LJj62213@unreasonable.com>
	<20071016085214.GJ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710160224y482ce8e7j4142f8ee3398333a@mail.gmail.com>

On 16/10/2007, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> > BTW, the Mini MagLite (the AA size flashlight) can also serve as a
> > weapon; Mas Ayoob has a class that's essentially on how to.
>
> How about a taser, or a gun, and martial arts training?

I guess flashlights have the advantage of still being legal in most
jurisdictions.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Oct 16 10:40:38 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:40:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <003501c80f72$1b1a5ca0$e1024e0c@MyComputer>
References: <20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org>
	<003501c80f72$1b1a5ca0$e1024e0c@MyComputer>
Message-ID: <20071016104038.GQ4005@leitl.org>

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 05:26:24PM -0400, John K Clark wrote:

> I have heard others complain about me doing this before, and I am just as
> baffled now as I was the first time I heard it. If anyone wants to reread
> your entire post it will take them about .9 seconds to find it. Perhaps they

It's not about rereading posts. It's about you selectively picking out
the irrelevant parts of the conversation, and focusing on them, and nothing
else. Conveniently forgetting my other points, as if I never said them. 
You might be not doing it on purpose, but it's a distinct pattern.

> can see what I could not, the thing you said that you think would prove
> my response to be wrong.
> 
> > Actually, the electroscooter is huge in the third world.
> 
> Well I don't know about the "electro" part but scooters are big in the third

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6212734.html

... 

"China produced 19 million battery driven bikes in 2006, and that figure 
could rise by 30 percent this year, said Zhang Changhai, lead analyst with 
metals consultancy Antaike in Beijing."

A drop in the sea, sure, but it's not negligible, and the drive is one
of the worst urban pollutions in the world. The e-bike is lightweight,
and requires so little power that it can be readily recharged from wall
sockets or PV panels, once these have become a cheaper and more reliable
power source than the electric grid, assuming there is a grid. 

Once that infrastructure is established, you can scale up the requirements,
until such comfortable, safe systems are in use everywhere in the world.

> world, because it's better than walking, and it's all they can afford. In

Once again it doesn't matter why they do it, but that they do it.
We live on on the bottom of a small gravity well, with pollution knowing 
no boundaries. A lot of what happens in China crosses the Pacific.
We also live in a limited-resource place, because our technology is
so pitiful it can't yet close material and energy flow loops, like biology
does. Unless we make that work, we have to work within our limits.

> America we can afford better so the closest thing you are likely to find to

The U.S. is not the whole world, and its fraction of importance is shrinking
as developing countries come online in full force. There are great chances
in developing technologies which won't doom them to repeat our mistakes.
It's in our own best interest to do so, both short- and long-term.

> an electric scooter is a Harley-Davidson. And that's not very close.

And many are driving a battered F250 truck, and can't afford the fuel for
the commute, nevermind a hog. Things are not so rosy outside of urban areas.
I don't know how sheltered you are, but things have been rumbling in the 
workforce. The income disparity has resulted in a very real loss of purchasing
capacity (availability of fundamentally new classes of consumables are
beside the point) in much of the populace, despite of rosy official figures. 
 
> > On the average, the european cars are considerably smaller and
> > more fuel  efficient
> 
> True, and the reason is that gas is more expensive in Europe because it is

The tax rate is some 1/2 to 2/3rds of the final fuel price. Assuming the
tax would go into development of renewables and maintaining the infrastructure
I don't have problems with it. I do have considerable issues with that
being deliberately put into the common pot, removing accountability in the
local government.

> more highly taxed; if it were as cheap as it is in America then European
> cars would get bigger and more powerful because that is the sort of car

I don't think the SUV thing is rational. It's not even safe, statistically.

As to bigger and more powerful, that's not equivalent to larger motor, and
more fossil fuel. The iterative loop of more mass, larger motor, more mass,
till equilibrium also works in the reverse. Electromagnetic drives, spike
caches and electrochemical energy sources are fundamentally game-changing,
and will eventually put the classical ICE out if its misery. As an even
more dramatic game-changer is deployment of symmetrical high-bandwith
residential networks, and virtual and augmented reality technologies.
This took two decades longer than expected, but it finally has started
happening. 

> most people would prefer to have. Until then most (but certainly not all!)
> European cars will look like toys to American eyes.

There is no such thing as a European car. Most of "European" cars are made
in the Far East. The reason U.S. cars don't sell well abroad is frankly
a bad reliability record, poor design and atrocious operatoin economics.
 
> > Energy is apparently still way too cheap.
> 
> Too Cheap?! I just would not consider it as a great monument to
> progress if I had to trade in my 306 hp Lexus for some crappy little

You haven't bought your car because it has 306 hp, or an ICE burning
dead dinos in it. You bought it because you wanted to travel quickly
in comfort and safety. Carbon composite, regenerative braking and
spike cache can give you the speed (not that there's much use in the
U.S. for that), acceleration, safety in a much lighter package, driven
by electrochemical energy sources and not by a clunky Carnot cycle
engine with greenhouse, aerosol and hydrocarbon exhaust.

> 1.5 hp scooter that toped out at 18mph. Call me the devil incarnate
> if you want but I just would not be a happy man.

Nobody asks you to buy a scooter. I wouldn't buy a scooter myself, I
have a mountain bike and Far-East car with a very good reliability
record that doesn't cost me more than 50 EUR/month in fuel.
 
> Eugen I think I've know you long enough to know it is unlikely that you've
> suddenly embraced a philosophy common among Christian
> fundamentalists, that pain and adversity builds character. I really don't

Clearly there is no pain yet, or people would use sensible technology.

As an anarchist, I'm sitting between the chairs of strong government
and strong corporation/free market types. I don't like either, and
prefer bottom-up organization principle of smart, informed agents.

However, in the current reality the agents are neither smart, nor informed,
which is why we need both state and corporations, with the state
adding the long-term optimization component to the market's short-term
optimization, both living in an uneasy truce with each other.

This is also an ideal picture we don't see in reality very often.

The reality is that powerful lobbies own the government, and old
democracies are slowly breaking down into oligarchies, with potentially
disastrous slippage into totalitarian regime.

> think that was the point  you were trying to make, but what you were
> trying to say I have no idea.
> 
> I just hope you haven't watched Al Gore's movie too many times.

I have absolutely no idea what's in the movie and in general I
value my time too much to spend listening to self-promotion PR
folks, who have to sell themselves to the lowest common denominator.

I'm also not sufficiently interested by the climate issue to spend
quality time with primary and secondary literature.

My interest with low-footprint and renewables is because they're fundamentally
local, and out of control, and will crossover with centralistic/nonrenewables
within the next decade outside of spatial and temporal niches. These are
technologies which empower individuals (including myself) and small groups 
of people, instead of maximizing government taxes and revenue of large 
corporations.
 
> > fossil energy is getting more and more expensive year by year.
> 
> It may take more pictures of George Washington to buy a gallon of gas,
> but as a fraction of income gas is about as cheap as it has ever been.

Wrong again. Real income has been stagnating since mid 1990s (and insidentally,
the GNP minus debt hasn't risen since that time), and most of the inflation
is in fossil prices.
 
> > the place I rent out is heated (and partly, powered) by geothermal
> 
> If you live in Iceland geothermal is a no brainer, it is also an option if
> you live in perhaps .7% of the earth's suffice, otherwise you'd better

I'm not sure where you take these numbers. Notice that southern Bavaria
is in general not considered a classical geothermal location. It's not
a fluke, however, though I question the economics of the entire pilot,
since there were cost overruns which however were absorbed by the drilling
company, and not the local community which runs the GmbH operating the
plant.

> think of something else.

See, you're doing it again. I'm sure it would drive you up the wall
if I started reciprocating in the same vein.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 11:20:01 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:20:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article here:
<http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4025>

The List: World's Healthiest Countries
Posted October 2007
Health headlines are more likely to focus on countries that have
worsening HIV epidemics or that play host to the latest disease
outbreak. But in a select few places, longevity and fitness trump
viruses and early deaths. In this week's List, FP examines five
countries that boast the cleanest bills of health.
----------------

OK, Japan, France, Iceland and Sweden, fine.

But Cuba???? How did they do it?
Cuba is a poor country and when people get sick, medicines and medical
equipment are often in short supply.

Their answer is low-tech preventive medicine. And it works.
They have more doctors per capita than any other country.
So better child care produces low infant mortality.
Lots of doctors means early detection and prevention.

And, being poor, they can't afford the American diet.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 11:52:39 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:52:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071016104038.GQ4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071015170040.GC4005@leitl.org>
	<003501c80f72$1b1a5ca0$e1024e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071016104038.GQ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710160452u2a68780aoffbcd2b731e3ae92@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/07, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> My interest with low-footprint and renewables is because they're fundamentally
> local, and out of control, and will crossover with centralistic/nonrenewables
> within the next decade outside of spatial and temporal niches. These are
> technologies which empower individuals (including myself) and small groups
> of people, instead of maximizing government taxes and revenue of large
> corporations.
>


Governments never accept reduced income from taxes.
If oil runs out, they will find something else to tax.

Many countries are looking at 'congestion' taxes if you drive into
cities. 'Road-pricing' taxes are also on the way up. Vehicle ownership
taxes will go up. Windmills and solar power installations will have to
be licensed. There is no end to the invention of new taxes.

The only way to avoid government taxes is to do something different to
the mass of the tax-paying public.


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 12:30:13 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:30:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710160530r5e316396wa610884a3709b013@mail.gmail.com>

On 16/10/2007, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting article here:
> <http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4025>

> OK, Japan, France, Iceland and Sweden, fine.
>
> But Cuba???? How did they do it?
> Cuba is a poor country and when people get sick, medicines and medical
> equipment are often in short supply.
>
> Their answer is low-tech preventive medicine. And it works.
> They have more doctors per capita than any other country.
> So better child care produces low infant mortality.
> Lots of doctors means early detection and prevention.
>
> And, being poor, they can't afford the American diet.

Note also that all these countries apportion the finite health budget
according to need, or (equivalently in the ideal case) according to
where it will do most good. That requires centralised planning.
Unfortunately, some nations' ideological aversion to centralised
planning gets as much in the way of an optimal outcome as other
nations' ideological commitment to it does.




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Oct 16 13:37:53 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:37:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071016085214.GJ4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<20071014201900.GH4005@leitl.org> <20071014230629.GQ1016@vt11.net>
	<20071015072505.GK4005@leitl.org>
	<f21c22e30710150412h23022dd8v19122122e248bfd0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071015112945.GS4005@leitl.org>
	<200710160321.l9G3LJj62213@unreasonable.com>
	<20071016085214.GJ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <200710161340.l9GDeWj96435@unreasonable.com>

I wrote:

 > BTW, the Mini MagLite (the AA size flashlight) can also serve as a
 > weapon; Mas Ayoob has a class that's essentially on how to.

 > But don't get rid of that MagLite. When my daughter just replaced her
 > stolen car, the first thing I offered to pay for was a MagLite to
 > replace the one I'd gotten her for her old car. That itty bitty LED
 > flashlight ain't gonna do much to protect her.

Eugen replied:

>I would move away to a place where cars don't get stolen and
>streets are safe of nights for women.
>
>I'm serious; one of the reasons that I am where I am is because
>nothing ever happens here.

Ditto.

>How about a taser, or a gun, and martial arts training?

Stathis replied to Eugen:

>I guess flashlights have the advantage of still being legal in most
>jurisdictions.

Most specifically, a flashlight in a car is legal, reasonable, and 
useful where there is no defense hazard. It can legitimately be in 
your hand, ready to go, without arousing suspicion from either 
authorities or anyone you encounter. It is also a no-brainer gift for 
people you care about, who may not be willing to go beyond that in preparation.

Tasers, guns, and martial arts training have their uses. But bear in 
mind that police officers, who may have all three along with other 
defense assets, still carry MagLites. (Tactical flashlights, like 
SureFire, are also useful to have, but not as weapons in of themselves.)

Generalizing, there are three questions that we all need to keep in 
mind, and should reassess on a regular basis:

(1) How can we structure our lives for the best reduction of risk 
from hazards (earthquakes, taxes, death, time delay, UFAI, ...) that 
will interfere with our goals? Choosing where to live, as you do, is 
an obviously useful measure. (But each of us has different criteria 
for "best" -- Perry chooses to remain in NYC.)

(2) What should we do to prepare for when a direct threat comes 
anyway? (What do you keep in your car for emergencies? Do you have an 
internist and a criminal defense attorney you trust? Do you know a 
way to get home that doesn't use highways?)

(3) What can we do to safeguard the people we love re (1) and (2)? 
They will make choices on their own.

My general philosophy is that if I feel strongly about a choice that 
others will make, at work or among friends or family, my duty as a 
mensch is to (a) make my case, then (b) shut up about it, and (c) 
where reasonable and appropriate, provide a safety net for them 
consonant with their choice.

(Your boss won't include a feature you think is needed -- design the 
API so it could be added easily. Your friend lives with an abusive 
boyfriend -- have a spare room, and let her know she's always welcome.)


-- David.



From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 16 17:54:04 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:54:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84117182-BF29-4B03-974D-BB6A58B8EE43@mac.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:20 PM, BillK wrote:

> Interesting article here:
> <http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4025>

Here's another article, with a link to the full list...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/774434.stm

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
Lifeboat Foundation
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Oct 16 18:31:39 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:31:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>


On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:51 AM, hkhenson wrote:

> At 10:46 PM 10/13/2007, you wrote:
>
>> On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
>>>
>>> Both fusion and fission generate neutrons.  There is a really big
>>> problem in that neutrons can be silently diverted into making Pu
>>> 239. The problem will only be recognized when a city is terror nuked
>>> without warning.
>>>
>>
>> I have heard it said that such usages to produce Pu 239 is not a
>> simple process and leaves telltales allowing detection.   As far as  
>> it
>> being possible I think this is very well recognized as it is used as
>> an argument against countries like Iran developing even supposedly
>> peaceful nuclear tecnology.  So I doubt very much we are blind to the
>> possibility or require a city being nuked to alert us.
>
> Google "Keith Henson" plutonium
>
>>> Also, the biggest use of oil is transport fuel, and that not easy to
>>> displace with fission.  It can be done, but the resultant fuel will
>>> be very expensive.  See my discussion on dollar gasoline here a
>>> while back.
>>>
>>
>> What kind of transport are we talking?  Some 60+% of oil used in the
>> US is used by cars and trucks.  How many of them could run just fine
>> off of electricity generated by nuclear power?
>
> Not very many of them.  But even if *half* could, it won't solve the
> carbon and energy problem.
>

Why can't all cars and light trucks be electric?  And why wouldn't a  
substantial decrease in oil burned help?

- s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Tue Oct 16 18:55:01 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071015065941.GJ4005@leitl.org>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
	<1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
	<DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
	<20071015065941.GJ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <DCC6D521-A848-4522-A3B9-C49DD78A8F74@mac.com>

What of the possibility of autonomous and tele-operated robotic mining  
of near-earth asteroids and space manufacture of some of the larger  
solar sat components?  If possible it would help avoid having to drag  
so much out of the gravity well.   Not to mention that extraction of  
bullion (!), metals and combustibles is space could generally greatly  
enhance space opportunities.    I heard about such things ages ago but  
haven't seen a lot since.

- samantha

On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:59 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 06:55:46PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
>
>> I'd guess they'd try to piggyback slots - i.e. replace communication
>> satellites with power satellites with communications relays on them.
>> Not like powering the relays would be a problem. :)
>
> There are advantages in dynamic LEO satellite configurations.
> You have to maintain a critical density (depends on orbit height)
> in order to achieve a smooth handover for Earth-side rectenna
> arrays.
>
> There are multiple technologies which allow you to dramatically
> reduce launch costs (high accelerations/small packages, so unsuitable
> for large payloads and people), and which get you to LEO.
>
> -- 
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 19:28:25 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:28:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <84117182-BF29-4B03-974D-BB6A58B8EE43@mac.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<84117182-BF29-4B03-974D-BB6A58B8EE43@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710161228y74185f30o39d420defb5d0f2a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/07, Sergio M.L. Tarrero wrote:
> Here's another article, with a link to the full list...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/774434.stm
>

That's the year 2000 report.
The WHO has now issued the year 2007 statistics.
You can download the pdf files here:
<http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat2007/en/index.html>

They provide the stats in alphabetical order and don't provide country
rankings, probably for political reasons.

But extracting the data for life expectancy at birth for 2005 -

                          male        female
Japan                   79             86
France                  77             84
Iceland                  79             83
Sweden                 79             83

Cuba                     75             79

USA                      75             80


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Oct 16 19:32:52 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:32:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <DCC6D521-A848-4522-A3B9-C49DD78A8F74@mac.com>
References: <200710130304.l9D34CCb025790@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<147A42E4-92E2-4248-AF9E-2853DBF3A473@mac.com>
	<1192301529.23110.10.camel@localhost>
	<DF341628-4A3E-4570-8300-D0D0ABA72A21@freeshell.org>
	<20071015065941.GJ4005@leitl.org>
	<DCC6D521-A848-4522-A3B9-C49DD78A8F74@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20071016193252.GM4005@leitl.org>

On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 11:55:01AM -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:

> What of the possibility of autonomous and tele-operated robotic mining  
> of near-earth asteroids and space manufacture of some of the larger  

Autonomous self-replication, in a small package is hard. Nobody knows exactly 
how to do it yet. Even teleoperation with enough relativistic lag (which

	http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm

implies distance, and large delta v) is hard.

The closest nontrivial amount of extraterrestrial material with low
delta-v and negligible (2 s ping-pong) is lunar surface. Even so bootstrapping
a fabbing/launch bridghead on the Moon is nontrivial, and might require
much cheaper launches than today. A useful package of material to deorbit
would seem in some 10-100 kg, which implies of putting a mass of about a 
ton into LEO (transfer time about half a year). Possible alternative
launch methods are a gas gun, or a maglev/scramjet, or carrier/scramjet
(anything else?). A ton is a lot for these. 100 kg LEO is more realistic.
100 kg spun int 10 um material goes a long way.

> solar sat components?  If possible it would help avoid having to drag  
> so much out of the gravity well.   Not to mention that extraction of  
> bullion (!), metals and combustibles is space could generally greatly  

At current launch costs, material put to LEO could as well be solid gold.
On the other hand suitably sheathed material can be deorbited and aerobraked.
This might or might now work out for lunar materials. 

> enhance space opportunities.    I heard about such things ages ago but  

I don't see how suited or canned monkeys have much of a future in space.
The logistics is very much different for solid-state beings which travel 
to the resources and multiply there. This even applies to people, though
less so.

> haven't seen a lot since.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Oct 16 18:55:44 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:55:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710161856.l9GIuvj19304@unreasonable.com>

Foreign Policy reported:

>Health headlines are more likely to focus on countries that have
>worsening HIV epidemics or that play host to the latest disease
>outbreak. But in a select few places, longevity and fitness trump
>viruses and early deaths. In this week's List, FP examines five
>countries that boast the cleanest bills of health.

leading Bill K to ask:

>OK, Japan, France, Iceland and Sweden, fine.
>
>But Cuba???? How did they do it?

First, the article doesn't say these are the *top* five. If you look 
at the full list that Sergio pointed us to, Cuba is #33.

Which still seems too high, relative to where the US and New Zealand 
are. I have my suspicions. I spent a few minutes on the WHO site, but 
can neither confirm nor deny them, and am not inclined to delve further.

The press release from WHO doesn't say where they got the numbers 
from that the report was based on. I suspect that, particularly for a 
country like Cuba, WHO relies on numbers provided to them from the 
government. I further suspect that Cuba is lying wildly in any such 
reporting, given the nature and history of the regime there and the 
known monumental distortions, exaggerations, and fabrications of 
similar regimes. (There is no famine in Ukraine. There are no gays in 
Iran. These are not the drones you're looking for.)


-- David.



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Tue Oct 16 19:38:26 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:38:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 4:20 AM, BillK wrote:
> OK, Japan, France, Iceland and Sweden, fine.
>
> But Cuba???? How did they do it?
> Cuba is a poor country and when people get sick, medicines and medical
> equipment are often in short supply.
>
> Their answer is low-tech preventive medicine. And it works.
> They have more doctors per capita than any other country.
> So better child care produces low infant mortality.
> Lots of doctors means early detection and prevention.


I was under the impression that prevention is greatly over-rated both  
in terms of cost effectiveness and actual value to health, at least  
when actually studied in economic terms.  The level at which it makes  
a difference is so low that it is not a substantial differentiator in  
the industrialized world.  That said, the reasons US disease survival  
rates are much better than the rest of the industrialized world have  
often been argued to be the result of excellent ubiquitous early  
detection technology and treatment.  So if early detection and  
prevention mattered, the US should be leading the pack but clearly  
the US is not.


> And, being poor, they can't afford the American diet.


Genetics and diet are probably responsible for the bulk of the  
difference in the industrialized world; when you look at the enormous  
variation in health and life expectancy across the individual US  
states (perhaps a better control than comparing individual countries)  
and correlate it with demographics and diet, the patterns make this  
more obvious.

If you remove things like accidents from the death statistics (which  
are atypically high in the US), you find that Americans are about the  
longest lived people in the industrialized world.  It is not because  
Americans are particularly healthy, but that the survival rates for  
many dangerous diseases (and particularly cancer) in the US often  
dwarf that of the rest of the industrialized world.  As an extreme  
example that was in the news recently, an average person with cancer  
in the US has a 30-35% higher survival rate than the average person  
with cancer in the UK.  As the population ages, factors like this  
will matter greatly.

Americans in many parts of the country have crap diets, but then  
compensate with superior early detection and treatment of significant  
diseases.  The healthiness of Americans has nothing to do with the  
healthcare available to them.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers


From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Tue Oct 16 20:01:36 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:01:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86356DE1-6144-4B22-A853-4370F753AFF0@ceruleansystems.com>

To add some statistical references to what I was talking about with  
regard to US survival rates:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/21/ 
ncancer121.xml

UK cancer survival rates are among the lowest in Europe, and all of  
Europe has significantly lower cancer survival rates than the US.  As  
a general pattern, a "life threatening" illness is significantly less  
life threatening in the US than elsewhere.  There are plenty of other  
problems in the US, mostly revolving around poor diet/lifestyle and  
high accident rate (due largely to excessive driving), but the  
quality of the medical care the average person receives is not one of  
those problems and actually compensates for a mediocre baseline.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers




From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct 16 20:16:57 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:16:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>

At 11:31 AM 10/16/2007, Samantha  wrote:

>On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:51 AM, hkhenson wrote:
>
> > At 10:46 PM 10/13/2007, Samantha  wrote:
> >
> >> On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:56 PM, hkhenson wrote:
>snip
> >>> Also, the biggest use of oil is transport fuel, and that not easy to
> >>> displace with fission.  It can be done, but the resultant fuel will
> >>> be very expensive.  See my discussion on dollar gasoline here a
> >>> while back.
> >>
> >> What kind of transport are we talking?  Some 60+% of oil used in the
> >> US is used by cars and trucks.  How many of them could run just fine
> >> off of electricity generated by nuclear power?
> >
> > Not very many of them.  But even if *half* could, it won't solve the
> > carbon and energy problem.
>
>Why can't all cars and light trucks be electric?

It's the same reasons we are having so many problems with trying to 
design and build electric cars now.  But you mentioned 
"trucks."  Every calculated how much energy it takes for a big truck 
to go over the passes in California?  The key to hydrocarbons is they 
are energy dense and 65% of the mass of the products comes from 
sucking in air.  Refueling an automobile from a gas pump is (from 
memory) 20 MWs thermal.  I.e., if you just burned the gas coming out 
of the pump, the flame would be 20 MW.  (For comparison, a large line 
locomotive at full power might produce 3 MW.)

>And why wouldn't a  substantial decrease in oil burned help?

Because you are not going to get it.  Any savings the US might manage 
are going to be sucked up other places in the world.  We have to 
displace oil and coal with something better.  Nuclear power is a 
relatively short term solution (limited supplies of uranium) and has 
really horrible risks.  If there were no other choice, I would 
reluctantly support it.  It may turn out there is no other choice if 
there is some engineering/physical reason we can't build SPS.

Keith Henson

PS, one alternative to abundant energy is some combination of war, 
starvation and disease that cuts the population back.  Oil supplies 
would last a lot longer if there were far fewer people. 



From dagonweb at gmail.com  Tue Oct 16 20:47:50 2007
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:47:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>

The immense difficulty of creating an industry in near-space,
with development of lunar or NEAR asteroid ores, as well as
harvesting solar energy is so incredibly disheartening it gives
me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
all wrong.

It is all but certain that we will need to take this step, barring
a Kurzweilean quantum leap in AI/Nanotech/longevity advances.
I am concerned to rely in my expectations on any singularities,
it would be just too convenient. I really want to see industry
and accompanying economical growth start real fast, as I
am really starting to get nervous about the Peak Oil issue.


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct 16 21:54:08 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:54:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <200710161856.l9GIuvj19304@unreasonable.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710161856.l9GIuvj19304@unreasonable.com>
Message-ID: <1192571584_53601@S1.cableone.net>

At 11:55 AM 10/16/2007, David Lubkin wrote:

snip

>The press release from WHO doesn't say where they got the numbers
>from that the report was based on. I suspect that, particularly for a
>country like Cuba, WHO relies on numbers provided to them from the
>government. I further suspect that Cuba is lying wildly in any such
>reporting, given the nature and history of the regime there and the
>known monumental distortions, exaggerations, and fabrications of
>similar regimes. (There is no famine in Ukraine. There are no gays in
>Iran. These are not the drones you're looking for.)

Droids.  :-)

Keith 



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct 16 22:23:03 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:23:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1192573319_54829@S1.cableone.net>

At 01:47 PM 10/16/2007, "Dagon Gmail" wrote:
>The immense difficulty of creating an industry in near-space,
>with development of lunar or NEAR asteroid ores, as well as
>harvesting solar energy is so incredibly disheartening it gives
>me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
>all wrong.

I agree with you, but I think it is instructive to see why.  It isn't 
because of physical reality, there are probably several ways you 
could build a huge space industry, the key to all pre nanotech ways 
is a low cost way to get into space.  My favorite is a moving cable, 
stepped taper, space elevator, partly because it is highly 
efficient.  But really huge lasers for laser launch offer another 
possibility.  The problems are at other levels, in my opinion more 
intractable levels because they are poorly understood.  (In some 
cases, discount economics gives wrong answers.)

>It is all but certain that we will need to take this step, barring
>a Kurzweilean quantum leap in AI/Nanotech/longevity advances.
>I am concerned to rely in my expectations on any singularities,
>it would be just too convenient. I really want to see industry
>and accompanying economical growth start real fast, as I
>am really starting to get nervous about the Peak Oil issue.

With good reason.  The consequence of economic growth below 
population growth leads to those populating becoming xenophobic and 
war-like.  There is a growing realization that solving terrorism 
(driven now by this underlying situation) will probably require a few 
billions of people to die.  Marvin Cetron discusses this around the 
edges in an article in the May/June issue of "The Futurist" earlier 
this year.  This situation is likely to come about well before the 
most thoughtful predictions of the singularity (Ray Kurzweil, mid 2040s).

Keith Henson

PS  I have been working on a description of space elevator and SPS 
construction in the context of part of a novel.  If you want to read 
it and comment, ask. 



From matus at matus1976.com  Tue Oct 16 23:58:29 2007
From: matus at matus1976.com (matus)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:58:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Stem cell research vs advocacy
Message-ID: <9A889C98287D4A599E523849B36D1734@silverbook>

I collected the information of a few organizations which do direct stem cell
research and tried to find a breakdown of how much actually goes to
research.  Results were typically 20% - 40% so far, although one institute,
the Bedford Stem Cell Research Foundation - http://www.bedfordresearch.org,
according to their director, get 88%-90% to direct research.  The director
also asked me this, which I thought members of this list might be interested
in assisting.
 
"I'm currently working on an article for BioLaw and Business that outlines
the role/need for philanthropy in new biomedical research -- I'm trying to
come up with the cost to taxpayers of a federal dollar re-cycled to research
versus the cost of an individual taxpayer dollar donated directly to a
non-profit for the same research.
Any thoughts/info on this?"  - info at bedfordresearch.org
 
You can find my current list here:
http://www.matus1976.com/science/stem_cell_support.htm
 
- Michael F Dickey
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 00:56:35 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:56:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stem cell research vs advocacy
In-Reply-To: <9A889C98287D4A599E523849B36D1734@silverbook>
References: <9A889C98287D4A599E523849B36D1734@silverbook>
Message-ID: <200710161956.35974.kanzure@gmail.com>

On the same thread subject, and I apologize for creating this hijacked 
subthread, does anybody have any stem cell research articles that they 
think should be read by the extropians on the list at large?

- Bryan


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 01:08:09 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:08:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>

J. Andrew wrote:

> I was under the impression that prevention is greatly over-rated both  
> in terms of cost effectiveness and actual value to health, at least  
> when actually studied in economic terms.  The level at which it makes  
> a difference is so low that it is not a substantial differentiator in  
> the industrialized world.  That said, the reasons US disease survival  
> rates are much better than the rest of the industrialized world have  
> often been argued to be the result of excellent ubiquitous early  
> detection technology and treatment.  So if early detection and  
> prevention mattered, the US should be leading the pack but clearly  
> the US is not.

I'm no doctor, but it seems to me that the "detection and treatment" process
doesn't kick in until the condition is acute.  IMHO there's a big difference
between PREVENTING a disease and waiting until something is terribly wrong
and then trying to notice it as soon as possible and then treat it.

James Clement




From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 01:39:04 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:39:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pax Romana touted as new Transhumanist Comic
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV17B2739B2D6828B89D6644A39D0@phx.gbl>

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12132

HICKMAN SAVES THE FUTURE, DESTROYS THE PAST IN "PAX ROMANA" 
by Andy Khouri, Staff Writer 

October 16, 2007 -

"Pax Romana" #1 on sale November 28

Readers of Image Comics' "The Nightly News" are already familiar with
creator Jonathan Hickman's penchant for iconoclasm, both in terms of his
startlingly original comic book artwork as well as his exquisite
eviscerations of conventional wisdom, authority and more or less anything we
tend to consider "truth." Having spilled quite a lot of blood on the
newsroom floor in his debut work, Hickman's next subject is one even more
complex than The Media itself. 

Written and lavishly illustrated by Hickman, November's "Pax Romana"
continues the author's exploration of cultural and philosophical constructs
in an ambitious tale of religious strife, epic wars, time travel across
millennia and --simply enough-- how to build a "perfect" society. CBR News
reconnected with Hickman to learn all he had to teach us about "Pax Romana."


"'Pax Romana' takes place in a future when Islam has overrun Western Europe
and monotheism is on the wane in the East and the West," Jonathan Hickman
told CBR News. "There's a breakthrough. They discover time travel in a
scientific lab that's secretly funded by the Vatican. The pope sends a
private army back in time to conquer the world and maintain the dominance of
Catholicism. 
"Obviously, it's a very small, personal story about finding yourself." 

Into the time of the first Christian emperor, Constantine, go five thousand
of the future's most heavily armed and genetically enhanced crusaders, with
enough religious zeal to match their enormous guns. Led by cardinals of the
Pope's own choosing, the time-traveling Vatican army fights to save the
future by destroying the past. "And all of their plans go wrong," Hickman
said. 

Their explicit goal nothing less than to keep the Roman Empire from
crumbling to dust, the players of "Pax Romana" are faced with challenges so
tremendous and decisions so terrible, to examine them too closely is all but
stupefying. But in the best tradition of science fiction, "Pax Romana" seeks
to expose in the most meaningful terms why this massive endeavor would or
would not work. 

"What kind of mentality would it take to build a 'perfect society?'" said
Hickman of the "Pax Romana" cast, which is a varied group of cardinals,
generals, popes, a child emperor and of course Constantine himself. "There
aren't any good guys, I didn't write any good guys. [laughs] There are
people that believe in things, but it doesn't mean they're believing in the
right things. 

"What starts off as a religious crusade turns into a social experiment,
except these guys are deadly serious and they're going to be committed to it
for the rest of their lives. Their kids are going to be committed to it. 

"If you're going to build a 'perfect society' you have to compromise along
the way because you can't be concerned with the Individual; with the humans
around you. You have to be worried about the larger human group. In other
words, would you allow slavery to continue for a period of time because you
need to build an infrastructure and a sewage system so you don't get the
black plague and stuff like that? 'Pax Romana' is tough questions like
that." 
Hickman was inspired in the creation of "Pax Romana" by the celebrated
author Frank Herbet, most specifically his novel "God Emperor of Dune."
"That's one of the inspirations for it," Hickman said. "The other one is I
just really wanted to do a time travel story!" 

"The Nightly News" was heavily informed by an intense crash course in
journalism, politics and statistics. Hickman has similarly prepared himself
for "Pax Romana" with a prodigious study of history, geography, geology and
philosophy. "I've been reading a lot of Hegel," Hickman said. "A lot of 'The
History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' by Edward Gibbon, and
all the armory books I can get a hold of so I can learn what they used to
wear back then and what the social practices were. I've been doing a lot of
research about the geographic changes of the state of Rome over the 300-year
period of the fall of the Roman Empire and trying to figure out how I would
consolidate borders and stuff like that." 

Given Hickman's highly distinctive art style, comparisons between "Pax
Romana" and "The Nightly News" will be inevitable, but Hickman believes his
new book surpasses the visual richness of his superlative debut. "'Pax
Romana' is going to be, obviously, graphic design-heavy," explained Hickman.
"But the 'graphic designy' stuff will be more 'graphic designy' and the art
will be more analogue, if that makes sense. So instead of it being just
trendy pop graphic design, it's going to be a lot more 'cutting edge' than
just black and white line art. It's going to be painted in some places, a
multimedia kind of thing, kind of a collage in some spots." 

In terms of story comparison, Hickman says, "The scope [of 'Pax Romana'] is
about the same [as 'The Nightly News']. Even though it may be a grander
scale, I think I'm still trying to tell a story on multiple levels. I think
that is true. I think I'm trying to tell a story that has multiple themes as
well as an overarching narrative." 

"The Nightly News" represented for Jonathan Hickman a total commitment to
professional comicbookery, and the auspicious newcomer has loads more to
say. "Pax Romana" debuts barely two months after "The Nightly News" graphic
novel collection hit stores; Hickman contributed to Image's hotly
anticipated "Popgun" anthology; and as previously reported on CBR News, "A
Red Mass for Mars" follows in December, and is Hickman's first work to be
illustrated by another artist, the emerging talent Ryan Bodenheim (Hickman
will provide color art). And in March of 2008, Hickman plans to release
"Transhuman," a comic book mockumentary about the rise of genetic
engineering. 

"'Transhuman' is kind of a comedy," Hickman said. "It's a lot of
tongue-in-cheek. It's really sarcastic. Not a lot of 'ha ha!' jokes but
there's a lot of stuff that'll make you chuckle. A guy named JM Renguit is
drawing it. He's colored some things for BOOM! Studios. He's got a kind of
Mike Oeming/Tim Sale thing going." 

Perhaps paradoxically, most professionals in all facets of the comics
industry read fewer and fewer comic books after finding themselves in the
business of making and selling them. Just one graphic novel deep, Jonathan
Hickman is no exception -- but still better than many at keeping up with
some of the medium's best books. 

"I've become really oversensitive to ripping people off," Hickman remarked.
"Not intentionally -- you don't mean to do that. But whatever you read, it
kind of filters into what you're doing. I stopped reading a lot of stuff but
two of my better buys were 'Batman: Year 100' by Paul Pope and 'Pulphope.' I
liked it - a lot. I've been reading 'Fables.' I love 'Fables,' that's very,
very good. I also read 'Y: The Last Man.' I've been reading '100 Bullets'
lately. That's pretty amazing. I'm a pretty big fan. I didn't even know who
Eduardo Risso was but I've become a huge fan overnight." 

Hickman has plans to continue the mythology of "Pax Romana" after the
conclusion of this maiden miniseries. "The whole thing is kind of structured
like 'Hellboy' in that it's something that I can revisit once a year or
something like that, do a miniseries, and it keeps building on the world,"
Hickman explained. "I've got a whole lot of that stuff already plotted out
and this is just the first little bit. It takes place over 150 years over
the first four issues. And it's really about society building. It's what the
story's all about." 

Posted by James Clement



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Wed Oct 17 01:08:47 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:08:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>

Dagon wrote:

>The immense difficulty of creating an industry in near-space,
>with development of lunar or NEAR asteroid ores, as well as
>harvesting solar energy is so incredibly disheartening it gives
>me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
>all wrong.
>
>It is all but certain that we will need to take this step, barring
>a Kurzweilean quantum leap in AI/Nanotech/longevity advances.
>I am concerned to rely in my expectations on any singularities,
>it would be just too convenient. I really want to see industry
>and accompanying economical growth start real fast, as I
>am really starting to get nervous about the Peak Oil issue.

I'm not convinced that the early analyses (Stine's The Third 
Industrial Revolution, Bova's The High Road, and the more detailed 
works) were wrong about the technical feasiblilty of and approaches 
to mining the asteroids. It seems to me that a Paul Allen or Jeff 
Bezos could (and profitably) fund the start-up out of pocket by 
themselves. I think the 1970's estimates were around $150 million to 
bring a decent nickel-iron asteroid back, which translates to about 
$500 million today. Even off by a factor of ten, it can be funded by 
one person. I am surprised that none of the tech rich who are putting 
money in space are talking about asteroids. Maybe (he hoped) they're 
working on it, but quietly.

I do feel very strongly that getting off this planet *asap* is vital, 
for all manner of reasons, without regard to how easy it would be 
given other technologies (MNT) that we expect but haven't happened yet.


-- David.



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 01:57:50 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:57:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192573319_54829@S1.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org> <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1192573319_54829@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710161857y1b96218fhe1555088a1a3d992@mail.gmail.com>

I've found this thread quite fascinating as, it seems, have many.  So
I would like pose two questions related to asteroid mining.

Ion drives provide impressive gains in performance over chemical
propulsion, and seem particularly suited to operation in vacuum and
out of an atmosphere-blanketed gravity well.

I asked sometime back about using other substances than Xenon for the
reaction mass, with an eye to using native asteroid material. Sadly
the responses were disappointingly uncreative, emphasizing for example
the way bulk iron doesn't present itself as individual atoms but comes
all clumped together.  Well, duh!  Whether you grind it up, oxidize
it, or vaporized it, it all boils down to the same thing, you're going
to have to work the bulk material into a form suitable for use as
reaction mass.  That may take equipment and energy, but I doubt it
will turn out to be technically daunting.  If you're on earth with
availability and cost what they are hereabouts, then Xenon is
terrific.  It's good to go in its native form.  But out in the 'roid
belt...

Anything with mass that can be ionized and propelled out the back can
be used as reaction mass. Xenon is probably not all that abundant out
in the vicinity of the asteroid belt, so what do you do?. You find
something else.  Put your thinking caps on folks and help me out here.
 There's lots of mass out there so some way needs to be found to make
it into "fuel".  Iron's plentiful, why not use it?  Or something else,
then.  C'mon.

Which brings me to my real question.  Your ion tug has hooked onto a
particularly juicy asteroid fragment, and has set it on course toward
earth.  Since you're moving "down" the solar gravity well, the ion tug
will have to slow you down gradually as you spiral in, or, if your
taking a more direct route, you're going to have to find another way
to decelerate when you reach your destination.  How could you do this?
 If you had a processing plant on the moon, you could just slam right
on in.  Could you keep the relative velocity low enough to keep your
goods from vaporizing  or keep from causing excess environmental
damage to the moon?  Or perhaps you aim for the earth, grazing the
atmosphere but of course avoiding actually grazing the surface.  I
suspect that some of the folks on earth my look askance at such a
method, but hey, we're just talkin' her, right?

Anyway, your thoughts on the matter?

Oh, one other little question.  Does being on moderation mean I'm
banned from posting, or just subject to oversight, or ,...what?

I guess I'll find out.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 02:21:24 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:21:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org> <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710161921w34a8de0cr792a7abfaaca514f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/07, David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> I am surprised that none of the tech rich who are putting
> money in space are talking about asteroids. Maybe (he hoped) they're
> working on it, but quietly.

Or maybe they just don't think it's a reality-based project.  To be
tech rich might imply feet firmly on the ground.

Also, what kind of profitability are we talking about here?  What kind
of Stuff do you go after first?  Surely it's got to be something more
valuable that a hunk of iron/nickel.  You know, something like  gold,
platinum, palladium, tungsten.  With all that stuff broken up into
chunks, what exactly would be considered "the motherload"?

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                           Ray Charles


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 17 02:10:17 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:10:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
Message-ID: <1192586954_60110@S3.cableone.net>

At 06:08 PM 10/16/2007, David Lubkin  wrote:

snip

>  I think the 1970's estimates were around $150 million to
>bring a decent nickel-iron asteroid back, which translates to about
>$500 million today. Even off by a factor of ten, it can be funded by
>one person.

You might be off by a factor of ten or even more.  It depends 
entirely on how you do it.

>I am surprised that none of the tech rich who are putting
>money in space are talking about asteroids. Maybe (he hoped) they're
>working on it, but quietly.
>
>I do feel very strongly that getting off this planet *asap* is vital,
>for all manner of reasons, without regard to how easy it would be
>given other technologies (MNT) that we expect but haven't happened yet.

The consequences of not getting off the planet in a really big way 
are dire.  For the energy structure we can see on the downside of 
peak oil, billions will die because oil is what keeps them alive.

Oil is what grows and transports food to places with oil but not much 
water.  The impressive number (to me) is that a ton of wheat took 
1000 tons of water to grow.

MNT isn't likely to come along before the oil runs out.

Keith Henson 



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 04:10:36 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:10:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
	<BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 6:08 PM, James Clement wrote:
> I'm no doctor, but it seems to me that the "detection and  
> treatment" process
> doesn't kick in until the condition is acute.  IMHO there's a big  
> difference
> between PREVENTING a disease and waiting until something is  
> terribly wrong
> and then trying to notice it as soon as possible and then treat it.


Most of, at least, the economics literature I am aware of seems to  
indicate that prevention does not buy you anything worth the expense  
beyond the very rudimentary.  Aggressive prevention has a very low  
return on investment any way you calculate it and gives much better  
return invested in advanced and available treatment.  Are you arguing  
that this is incorrect?

Ignoring the whole "healthy lifestyle and diet" thing which is rarely  
controlled for, it seems that the optimal situation from a healthcare  
standpoint is basic prevention -- which the entire industrialized  
world has -- and very advanced and fast treatment of problems as they  
occur.  By the standards of most western countries, the treatment  
turnaround in the US after a problem is reported is extremely short,  
which undoubtedly also helps.  I was reading something the other day  
that stated the US has five times as many MRI machines per capita as  
Canada (and not surprisingly shorter waits for such machines), and at  
least in US medicine MRI machines are considered essential diagnostic  
technology that improve treatment performance.  But if the Canadian  
population is doesn't have a crap lifestyle and diet relative to the  
USians they will still be healthier.

The US has perfectly adequate prevention, a crap lifestyle and diet,  
and superior medical treatment.  The crap lifestyle and superior  
medical treatment essentially cancel each other out and leave the US  
as an average country statistically.  Some European countries have a  
healthier lifestyle, but get taken down a couple notches because the  
medical treatment is not as good or available as in the US.


If you want spectacular results, combine a healthy lifestyle with US  
medical treatment performance.  There are regional demographics in  
the US that already outperform any other equivalent demographic in  
the world.  Even among the individual US states the average life  
expectancy range is 8-9 years(!), so clearly there is a rather large  
standard deviation at play here that gets lost when averaging the  
continent.  Since we are all individuals rather than averages,  
individual Americans should take advantage of the superior medical  
treatment by also leading a healthy lifestyle.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 04:41:16 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:41:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>	<BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV11D59F18F3E6CF85E8AC4DA39D0@phx.gbl>

Thanks, J. Andrew for your reply:

> Most of, at least, the economics literature I am aware of seems to  
> indicate that prevention does not buy you anything worth the expense  
> beyond the very rudimentary.  Aggressive prevention has a very low  
> return on investment any way you calculate it and gives much better  
> return invested in advanced and available treatment.  Are you arguing  
> that this is incorrect?

I haven't seen such literature, so I can't comment on their premises or
assumptions.  Please feel free to send me an example of such.

> Ignoring the whole "healthy lifestyle and diet" thing which is rarely  
> controlled for,... 

> The US has perfectly adequate prevention, a crap lifestyle and diet,  
> and superior medical treatment.  The crap lifestyle and superior  
> medical treatment essentially cancel each other out and leave the US  
> as an average country statistically.  Some European countries have a  
> healthier lifestyle, but get taken down a couple notches because the  
> medical treatment is not as good or available as in the US.

How do you define "prevention"?  Here in the States, "healthy lifestyle and
diet" are one of the first things one is told is best for prevention, after
that, many other things including stress reduction, vitamins/supplements,
etc. are encouraged, depending on the individual's genetic and environmental
risks (see below). 

> If you want spectacular results, combine a healthy lifestyle with US  
> medical treatment performance.  There are regional demographics in  
> the US that already outperform any other equivalent demographic in  
> the world.  Even among the individual US states the average life  
> expectancy range is 8-9 years(!), so clearly there is a rather large  
> standard deviation at play here that gets lost when averaging the  
> continent.  Since we are all individuals rather than averages,  
> individual Americans should take advantage of the superior medical  
> treatment by also leading a healthy lifestyle.

I would agree that lifestyle, which is major aspect of prevention, plays a
crucial role in improving health.  

Over the years, I've read many articles which speculate the savings in
disease treatment which could be avoided if certain preventive measures were
taken...  Here are some examples:


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-122379097.html


WASHINGTON, Sept. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- A study released today shows that daily
use of calcium would prevent 734,000 hip fractures and save $13.9 billion in
health care costs over the next five years. Daily use of folic acid by women
would prevent 600 cases of neural tube birth defects yearly, saving $1.3
billion in lifetime medical costs over five years. Omega-3 fatty acids,
glucosamine and saw palmetto supplements showed substantial promise for
improving health and quality of life and potentially reducing health care
costs.


********************

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-11170765_ITM

Industry study boosts case for supplements.

COPYRIGHT 2005 The Salt Lake Tribune 

Byline: Robert Gehrke 

Nov. 3--WASHINGTON -- Use of two types of dietary supplements could save the
country $5.6 billion in health-care costs for seniors alone, according to a
study released Wednesday funded by an industry-backed group. 

The Dietary Supplement Education Alliance, an industry-funded advocacy group
said the use of omega-3 fatty acids by seniors could save $3.1 billion by
preventing coronary heart disease costs, while lutein and zeaxanthin could
save $2.5 million in curbing macular degeneration. 

********************
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3880-polypill-could-slash-heart-attack
s-and-strokes.html

A wonder pill that could slash the rate of deaths from heart attack or
stroke by over 80 per cent is being proposed by UK researchers.

The "Polypill" would contain a cocktail of six existing drugs and should be
given to everybody over the age of 55, the researchers argue. It could
potentially save 200,000 lives every year in the UK alone, they say.

"There's probably no other preventative measure which would have greater
impact on public health in the Western world," says Nicholas Wald, research
leader and an expert in preventative medicine at the Wolfson Institute of
Preventive Medicine, London. 

"In people who start taking it at 55, about a third would expect to
benefit," he says. "Each of these individuals would gain about 12 years
extra life - that is enormous." In some cases the increase in longevity
might be as much as 20 years, says the proposal.


James Clement



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Wed Oct 17 04:46:50 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:46:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710161921w34a8de0cr792a7abfaaca514f@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org> <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
	<a6a17bd40710161921w34a8de0cr792a7abfaaca514f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1192596347_65847@S4.cableone.net>

At 07:21 PM 10/16/2007, Jeff Davis wrote:
>On 10/16/07, David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:
>
> > I am surprised that none of the tech rich who are putting
> > money in space are talking about asteroids. Maybe (he hoped) they're
> > working on it, but quietly.
>
>Or maybe they just don't think it's a reality-based project.  To be
>tech rich might imply feet firmly on the ground.

It's the same exact problem space colonies/SPS had clear back in the 
1970s.  Human minds just stall out when the number of step to get to 
a goal exceed some smallish number.  That might be correct.  When you 
stack enough tasks in series, each one of which has a significant (or 
unknown) chance of failing, the whole thing just gets to be impossible looking.

>Also, what kind of profitability are we talking about here?  What kind
>of Stuff do you go after first?

One metric Eric Drexler used was the time for a machine to process 
it's own weight in material.  Vapor deposit metal boilers could 
vaporize their own mass in iron in 8 hours.  ~1000 times per year.

If you were processing a iron/nickel asteroid for 1 ppm gold with 
such a plant, a tonne of processing plant would process 1000 tonnes 
of asteroid a year--giving you a kg of gold for your trouble--which 
at today's price is in the range of $24,000.

Of course you could also get 100 tonnes of nickel, which at $50,000 
mt would be worth $5 million--if you could get it back to a market.

In both cases, space based production would probably break the market 
from a few plants starting up and prices would fall to 1/1000 times 
the present value.

At 2kg/kW and $0.10/ kWh, a tonne of SPS parts delivered to GEO will 
return about $440 a year in electricity sales, with this income 
stream perhaps falling to $50 per tonne per year over a decade or so.

>Surely it's got to be something more
>valuable that a hunk of iron/nickel.  You know, something like  gold,
>platinum, palladium, tungsten.  With all that stuff broken up into
>chunks, what exactly would be considered "the motherload"?

There are lots of things to make money on, but I expect that the 
demand for such materials will dry up about the time the plants come on line.

Keith Henson

PS.  You probably want to use the 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process, to process nickel/iron asteroids. 



From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 04:56:09 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:56:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192596347_65847@S4.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>	<200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>	<a6a17bd40710161921w34a8de0cr792a7abfaaca514f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1192596347_65847@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV15B8109877EE8EDA1728E1A39D0@phx.gbl>

hkhenson, Jeff Davis, David Lubkin, et al. writes:

>Also, what kind of profitability are we talking about here?  What kind
>of Stuff do you go after first?


Check out this article:

They're Baaacckkk.the Trillion Dollar Asteroid Miners August 4, 2007

http://spacecynic.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/theyre-baaacckkkthe-trillion-doll
ar-asteroid-miners/
  


James Clement



From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Wed Oct 17 04:43:54 2007
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew at ceruleansystems.com>
wrote:

>By the standards of most western countries, the
>treatment turnaround in the US after a problem is
>reported is extremely short,which undoubtedly also
>helps.  I was reading something the other day that
>stated the US has five times as many MRI machines
>per capita as Canada (and not surprisingly shorter
>waits for such machines), and at least in US
>medicine MRI machines are considered essential
>diagnostic  technology that improve treatment
>performance.  

I would assume this is in relevant to the fact that
Canadians have an unlimited health care system.  As a
Canadian, i'm proud that every hospital provides some
kind of emergency assistance.  It can't provide the
highest level of manufacturing as it's busy trying to
provide for all.  I would agree that US may have five
times as many MRI machines per capita as Canada and
guaranteed shorter waits for such machines but at
least they are available to all individuals.  

Thanks for the thought.
Anna:)




      Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca



From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 05:14:56 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:14:56 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
	<BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710162214h1092740fma5f01e0a6ea856a2@mail.gmail.com>

On 17/10/2007, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:

> Most of, at least, the economics literature I am aware of seems to
> indicate that prevention does not buy you anything worth the expense
> beyond the very rudimentary.  Aggressive prevention has a very low
> return on investment any way you calculate it and gives much better
> return invested in advanced and available treatment.  Are you arguing
> that this is incorrect?

It's not clear what you are referring to here. Would you say that it
easier to detect and treat lung cancer or emphysema than try to reduce
the rate of smoking in a country, for example?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From sentience at pobox.com  Wed Oct 17 05:25:02 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:25:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV15B8109877EE8EDA1728E1A39D0@phx.gbl>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710170110.l9H1A3j43769@unreasonable.com>
	<a6a17bd40710161921w34a8de0cr792a7abfaaca514f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1192596347_65847@S4.cableone.net>
	<BAY124-DAV15B8109877EE8EDA1728E1A39D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47159CAE.7040503@pobox.com>

James Clement wrote:
> hkhenson, Jeff Davis, David Lubkin, et al. writes:
> 
>>Also, what kind of profitability are we talking about here?  What kind
>>of Stuff do you go after first?
> 
> Check out this article:
> 
> They're Baaacckkk.the Trillion Dollar Asteroid Miners August 4, 2007
> 
> http://spacecynic.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/theyre-baaacckkkthe-trillion-doll
> ar-asteroid-miners/

Better yet,

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Dig_20up_20the_20Earth_27s_20core

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 05:35:21 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:35:21 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>

On 17/10/2007, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew at ceruleansystems.com>
> wrote:
>
> >By the standards of most western countries, the
> >treatment turnaround in the US after a problem is
> >reported is extremely short,which undoubtedly also
> >helps.  I was reading something the other day that
> >stated the US has five times as many MRI machines
> >per capita as Canada (and not surprisingly shorter
> >waits for such machines), and at least in US
> >medicine MRI machines are considered essential
> >diagnostic  technology that improve treatment
> >performance.
>
> I would assume this is in relevant to the fact that
> Canadians have an unlimited health care system.  As a
> Canadian, i'm proud that every hospital provides some
> kind of emergency assistance.  It can't provide the
> highest level of manufacturing as it's busy trying to
> provide for all.  I would agree that US may have five
> times as many MRI machines per capita as Canada and
> guaranteed shorter waits for such machines but at
> least they are available to all individuals.

The fact that there are five times as many MRI machines in the US as
Canada suggests that there is more profit to be made in MRI's. If it
actually turned out that diverting funds from other areas to MRI
machines improved health outcomes then why wouldn't bureaucrats in
Canada or anywhere else do this?





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 05:57:04 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:57:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>

Stathis wrote:

> The fact that there are five times as many MRI machines in the US as
> Canada suggests that there is more profit to be made in MRI's. If it
> actually turned out that diverting funds from other areas to MRI
> machines improved health outcomes then why wouldn't bureaucrats in
> Canada or anywhere else do this?

I think it would be informative to ask a Canadian hospital diagnostician
whether they'd WANT more MRIs if they could just requisition them (i.e., if
the bureaucrats didn't limit them, probably because of budgets).  

There are ads that run on Tv here in San Jose sponsored by the County
Hospitals.  They say "no one is ever turned away for not being able to pay
or not having insurance."  Then then go on to say that $8.5 Billion in such
services went uncollected last year - that's just for Northern Calif.
 
Most County Hospitals are required to treat you, regardless of abiltiy to
pay.  As you say, we have already have a form of "free" medical care now,
it's just highly inefficient to wait until a problem has reached a critical
stage and go to the emergency room for treatment than to try to catch it
earlier with local, community health clinics.  However, I for one like the
idea that each State can experiment with various ways of dealing with this
problem without the Federal Government stepping in and mandating a
"National" one-size-fits-all policy.

James Clement



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 06:02:31 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:02:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0E3E10E1-88BA-4960-B93D-C7F71D00A3CB@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:43 PM, Anna Taylor wrote:
> I would assume this is in relevant to the fact that
> Canadians have an unlimited health care system.  As a
> Canadian, i'm proud that every hospital provides some
> kind of emergency assistance.  It can't provide the
> highest level of manufacturing as it's busy trying to
> provide for all.


Here is the monkey wrench, and I can't fully explain it so don't ask  
me to:  healthcare outcomes follow roughly the same distribution as a  
function of individual income as they do in the US.  There may be  
nominal equality of access as far as the Canadian public healthcare  
systems is concerned, but there is not an equality of outcome for  
Canadians.

Clearly the picture is a bit more complicated and what you have  
actually bought (even if it is just social righteousness and peace of  
mind) is not what you seem to think you have bought.


> I would agree that US may have five
> times as many MRI machines per capita as Canada and
> guaranteed shorter waits for such machines but at
> least they are available to all individuals.


MRIs are available to all individuals in the US as well, though the  
routes to them may vary depending on your situation.  The US has de  
facto universal healthcare even though it does not have it  
officially.  A lot of the healthcare argument is about whether or not  
to make the "de facto" into "official".

The problem with your reasoning is that you are effectively denying  
MRI access to a much broader swath of the population than the small  
minority that hypothetically might be denied in the US.   Have you  
looked at the average wait times for MRIs in Canada?

Does it count as "universal access" if you die or suffer permanent  
injury in the intervening months while waiting for your scheduled MRI  
because treatment was not possible?  Is it "universal access" if I  
put a million dollars at the bottom of Lake Tahoe for every man,  
woman, and child in the country that can find it?  Technically yes,  
in reality no.

Which may, in fact, help explain why Canadian healthcare outcomes are  
a function of income the same as they are in the US:  a timely MRI is  
right next door in the US if you don't mind paying for it.


Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 06:11:10 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:11:10 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>

On 17/10/2007, James Clement <clementlawyer at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Stathis wrote:
>
> > The fact that there are five times as many MRI machines in the US as
> > Canada suggests that there is more profit to be made in MRI's. If it
> > actually turned out that diverting funds from other areas to MRI
> > machines improved health outcomes then why wouldn't bureaucrats in
> > Canada or anywhere else do this?
>
> I think it would be informative to ask a Canadian hospital diagnostician
> whether they'd WANT more MRIs if they could just requisition them (i.e., if
> the bureaucrats didn't limit them, probably because of budgets).

Of course they couldn't just requisition anything they wanted. I work
in the public hospital system in Australia, and everyone is always
bitching about not enough beds, not enough staff etc. But there is
only a finite amount of money available for health care; the problem
is how to allocate this money so that it does the most good, not so
that it makes someone the most profit. There are some situations where
the free market does not do the best job of allocating resources, and
health is one of them, along with education, law enforcement, and
defence.





-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 06:27:35 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:27:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710162214h1092740fma5f01e0a6ea856a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
	<BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<f21c22e30710162214h1092740fma5f01e0a6ea856a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C935C008-C0CA-411A-A0C3-9E2E5718473C@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 10:14 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> It's not clear what you are referring to here. Would you say that it
> easier to detect and treat lung cancer or emphysema than try to  
> reduce the rate of smoking in a country, for example?


Lifestyle modification is not preventative medicine in the sense that  
it is usually used when discussing policy.  Yes, you could  
hypothetically legislate all junk food out of the country and mandate  
regular exercise, but would that be preventative medicine?  Note that  
this is one of the other reasons some people cast a jaundiced eye on  
expansive mandatory universal preventative medicine -- it is easy to  
imagine something like this happening because there is precedent  
under similar auspices.

Preventative medicine usually refers to regular checkups,  
diagnostics, vaccinations, etc.  Some of these, like certain  
vaccines, have an unambiguous net medical benefit.  But for many  
other types of common preventative medicine the total cost to society  
of universal access significantly exceeds the total cost of not doing  
it at all.  Now, as a wealthy society we have the luxury of  
individually engaging in economically dubious preventative medicine  
and we engage in it prodigiously, but if you make it mandatory and  
universal would it be just to make everyone pay for an economically  
foolish expenditure?


The real tradeoff is this:  we can spend lots and lots of money on  
extensive universal preventative care, or we can spend a lot less  
money on very basic preventative care and spend the balance on very  
advanced diagnostics (like all those MRIs) and treatments.  In terms  
of health outcomes, the latter choice is better.  But people really  
like their preventative care even if the benefit is dubious, so it is  
politically potent, never mind the problem of incentives.

The reason this is such a hard issue is that no one wants to make  
tradeoffs.  Are you willing to reduce your own average healthcare  
outcome in order to help ensure equality of access?  Since no one is  
suggesting massively increasing healthcare spending (and independent  
of the question of systemic inefficiency), this is the question that  
needs to be answered.  If it would be detrimental to the healthcare  
outcomes of the majority of people, would it even be just?  I am okay  
with people proposing the universal healthcare, but let's not pretend  
that it does not have some serious downsides with real consequences  
for average people.


Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 06:42:17 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:42:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD03EC0F-0F78-490C-A598-D2235624EC80@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> There are some situations where
> the free market does not do the best job of allocating resources, and
> health is one of them, along with education, law enforcement, and
> defence.


Odd.  Public universal education in the US (a 20th century invention)  
did not significantly improve educational outcomes but it *massively*  
increased cost.  Far more tax dollars are spent on education than  
defense, but an argument could be made that the latter has been much  
more efficient at producing results.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 06:45:40 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:45:40 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <C935C008-C0CA-411A-A0C3-9E2E5718473C@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
	<BAY124-DAV16BD7F4BC9280C15BBE7C1A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<f21c22e30710162214h1092740fma5f01e0a6ea856a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<C935C008-C0CA-411A-A0C3-9E2E5718473C@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710162345l6fb7489m5b010927f5447e4e@mail.gmail.com>

On 17/10/2007, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:

> The real tradeoff is this:  we can spend lots and lots of money on
> extensive universal preventative care, or we can spend a lot less
> money on very basic preventative care and spend the balance on very
> advanced diagnostics (like all those MRIs) and treatments.  In terms
> of health outcomes, the latter choice is better.  But people really
> like their preventative care even if the benefit is dubious, so it is
> politically potent, never mind the problem of incentives.

With the sort of expensive preventative care that you're suggesting I
think the problem is as much a lack of proof of net benefit as an
economic one. It might seem that it would be a good idea to do a
coronary angiogram on everyone at age 40, for example, but no-one has
ever done a study to show that it would in fact do more good than
harm, let alone be cost effective. We must use evidence-based
practice.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 06:47:07 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:47:07 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <CD03EC0F-0F78-490C-A598-D2235624EC80@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD03EC0F-0F78-490C-A598-D2235624EC80@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710162347q6bfe4a49rbb031692d709d59b@mail.gmail.com>

On 17/10/2007, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > There are some situations where
> > the free market does not do the best job of allocating resources, and
> > health is one of them, along with education, law enforcement, and
> > defence.
>
>
> Odd.  Public universal education in the US (a 20th century invention)
> did not significantly improve educational outcomes but it *massively*
> increased cost.  Far more tax dollars are spent on education than
> defense, but an argument could be made that the latter has been much
> more efficient at producing results.

Are you saying that people were just as well educated in the nineteenth century?




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Oct 17 06:51:18 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:51:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <20071017065118.GO4005@leitl.org>

On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 01:16:57PM -0700, hkhenson wrote:

> >Why can't all cars and light trucks be electric?
> 
> It's the same reasons we are having so many problems with trying to 
> design and build electric cars now.  But you mentioned 

In principle modern cars could be self-guiding, so a PV
electrified rail along the highway would work. As a bonus, no
more traffic contention.

> "trucks."  Every calculated how much energy it takes for a big truck 
> to go over the passes in California?  The key to hydrocarbons is they 

The advantage of electric (and hybrid) drives so that you can
regenerate large fraction of the energy in such and similiar
(stop-and-go traffic) cases.

> are energy dense and 65% of the mass of the products comes from 
> sucking in air.  Refueling an automobile from a gas pump is (from 

Methanol has only half the energy density of diesel, is low on
carbon and rich in hydrogen and the other electrode in fuel cells
is also air. The raw efficiency is 2-3 times that of an ICE,
even without lightweight structures, regenerative braking and smaller
engine and a spike cache.

> memory) 20 MWs thermal.  I.e., if you just burned the gas coming out 
> of the pump, the flame would be 20 MW.  (For comparison, a large line 
> locomotive at full power might produce 3 MW.)

Very large trucks and newer naval carriers are hybrid. It's only a
question of time before fuel cells will force out the ICE and the
gas turbines.
 
> >And why wouldn't a  substantial decrease in oil burned help?
> 
> Because you are not going to get it.  Any savings the US might manage 
> are going to be sucked up other places in the world.  We have to 

We're going to start saving anyway, because Peak Oil scenario seems
to turn out true. It's probably not smart to go nuclear exchange over
resources. Nobody's going to win that one.

> displace oil and coal with something better.  Nuclear power is a 
> relatively short term solution (limited supplies of uranium) and has 

Thorium is quite a bit better, but I don't like nuclear power for
terrestrial applications. People can't handle radioisotopes, and
every mole of free neutrons only aids proliferation.

> really horrible risks.  If there were no other choice, I would 
> reluctantly support it.  It may turn out there is no other choice if 
> there is some engineering/physical reason we can't build SPS.

As far as I can see the first issue is launch costs, and use
of extraterrestrial resources.
 
> Keith Henson
> 
> PS, one alternative to abundant energy is some combination of war, 
> starvation and disease that cuts the population back.  Oil supplies 
> would last a lot longer if there were far fewer people. 

Ever the optimist, eh.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Oct 17 06:58:12 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:58:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>

On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:47:50PM +0200, Dagon Gmail wrote:

> The immense difficulty of creating an industry in near-space,
> with development of lunar or NEAR asteroid ores, as well as
> harvesting solar energy is so incredibly disheartening it gives

We *are* already harvesting solar energy. There's four orders
of magnitude more energy at the bottom of the gravity well
we currently need. Advanced cultures probably don't need more
than 10-100 W for a single human equivalent individual.

> me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
> all wrong.

Then go into engineering, or start a business, and make it happen.
I'm serious. If you don't yet know what do with your life, that's
an interesting and lucrative niche. Before very long, it will
become a mature industry, and entry threshold will have become
too high for small new players.
 
> It is all but certain that we will need to take this step, barring
> a Kurzweilean quantum leap in AI/Nanotech/longevity advances.
> I am concerned to rely in my expectations on any singularities,
> it would be just too convenient. I really want to see industry
> and accompanying economical growth start real fast, as I
> am really starting to get nervous about the Peak Oil issue.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Oct 17 07:00:10 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:00:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <0E3E10E1-88BA-4960-B93D-C7F71D00A3CB@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0E3E10E1-88BA-4960-B93D-C7F71D00A3CB@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071017015733.0237ab10@satx.rr.com>

At 11:02 PM 10/16/2007 -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:
>MRIs are available to all individuals in the US as well, though the
>routes to them may vary depending on your situation.  The US has de
>facto universal healthcare even though it does not have it
>officially.  A lot of the healthcare argument is about whether or not
>to make the "de facto" into "official".
>
>The problem with your reasoning is that you are effectively denying
>MRI access to a much broader swath of the population than the small
>minority that hypothetically might be denied in the US.   Have you
>looked at the average wait times for MRIs in Canada?
>
>Does it count as "universal access" if you die or suffer permanent
>injury in the intervening months while waiting for your scheduled MRI
>because treatment was not possible?

quoting from somebody on another list:

<Now, I am quite aware that private insurance in the US accounts for 
a far larger quantity of GDP than it does in a largely public system, 
but then insurance companies are businesses whose primary motivation 
is business profit. In such a scenario, it doesn't surprise me at all 
that the GDP percentage is higher, for the same reason that I cannot 
share your enthusiasm for insurance company-run healthcare. In your 
response you accepted that much of the additional 5% represents waste 
in the system, but appeared to suggest that this was primarily within 
the socialised aspects. I am sure this is true to some degree, but I 
wonder if you are sufficiently accounting for the quantity of money 
that simply disappears from the system in the form of insurance 
company profits.

I personally consider it dangerous and inefficient to trust your 
healthcare system to organisations akin to gambling empires whose 
primary motivation is profit creaming.

I personally have argued the toss with an insurance company who held 
that a 40 year old working single mother, fully insured, was 
demanding "elective" surgery when asking for a new hip replacement, 
when her old one was well over a decade old, had come loose four 
years previously, and was hammering into her femur with every step 
like a mortar and pestle, having already shortened her leg on that 
side by an inch, and split the top of the femur. We of course had 
letters from various prominent surgeons attesting that this surgery 
was vital, and in no way elective. But the company was willing to go 
to the mat, and their litigation gamble worked, since she simply 
couldn't afford to argue the toss further in court. Contrast this 
with the immediate, as-required hip replacement for my wife's 93 year 
old grandmother, on the NHS.

I personally helped a woman suffer through the indignities and 
distress of residing in self-catering hotel accommodation while 
receiving "compassionate" treatment at the Texas Medical Center in 
Houston, while barely able to breathe due to constant flooding of the 
pleura secondary to clear-cell renal metastases, since her insurance 
wouldn't cover residential treatment in this case, and hospital beds 
were thousands of dollars a night, just for the bed, in that 
facility. In that case, the "hotel" was more like a sizeable village, 
or town, whose inhabitants were almost exclusively patients of one 
stripe or another, inadequately covered to afford them a place in an 
actual hospital. This suggests that hidden in that 15%, apart from 
all the reinsurance dollars laundered in Bermuda and the Caymans, are 
whole subsidiary profit making sectors, such as provision of medium 
or low-cost accommodation, creaming slices out of the insurance 
company profit stream at the fringes of an over-inflated central market. >

Damien Broderick





From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 07:34:56 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:34:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710162347q6bfe4a49rbb031692d709d59b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD03EC0F-0F78-490C-A598-D2235624EC80@ceruleansystems.com>
	<f21c22e30710162347q6bfe4a49rbb031692d709d59b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD8EEA8E-17A8-472C-A4F7-04DB32365B57@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 17/10/2007, J. Andrew Rogers <andrew at ceruleansystems.com> wrote:
>> Odd.  Public universal education in the US (a 20th century invention)
>> did not significantly improve educational outcomes but it *massively*
>> increased cost.  Far more tax dollars are spent on education than
>> defense, but an argument could be made that the latter has been much
>> more efficient at producing results.
>
> Are you saying that people were just as well educated in the  
> nineteenth century?


19th century Americans were exceptionally literate by all accounts,  
due in large part to a confluence of social and cultural pressures  
that demanded literacy from all individuals as a matter of basic  
decency and went to great lengths to ensure that everyone was decent  
in that sense.  A number of foreign historians of the period marveled  
at it, and the printing and publishing records of the period strongly  
suggest it.  I think it was Alexis de Tocqueville (circa 1830) who  
wrote something to the effect that the street urchins were as well- 
educated as the aristocrats in Europe.  Some of my very old relatives  
that I have met were common rural folk that were educated before the  
availability of public education but it did not stop them from  
getting science and engineering degrees from good universities.  It  
is an anecdote and all of those relatives have died over the last  
couple decades, but it indicates to me that the pre-public system was  
not exactly poor.  It is a pity education is not valued nearly as  
much today in American culture as it was back then.

The history of education in the US is unique and pretty interesting;  
I do not know of any other country with an education history quite  
like it.  The advent of public education was the result of political  
power plays; it was forced on a population that neither wanted it nor  
saw a use for it.  The results were widely considered deplorable  
relative to the non-public alternative at the time and little seems  
to have changed, but laws were passed that made it the only choice  
for all practical purposes.


US history is a bit unintuitive.  Virtually every government  
institution we have today was invented at some point in the 20th  
century, but it feels like they've been there since the beginning.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers


From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Oct 17 15:05:50 2007
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:05:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471624CE.5090000@mac.com>

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> On 17/10/2007, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>   
>> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew at ceruleansystems.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> By the standards of most western countries, the
>>> treatment turnaround in the US after a problem is
>>> reported is extremely short,which undoubtedly also
>>> helps.  I was reading something the other day that
>>> stated the US has five times as many MRI machines
>>> per capita as Canada (and not surprisingly shorter
>>> waits for such machines), and at least in US
>>> medicine MRI machines are considered essential
>>> diagnostic  technology that improve treatment
>>> performance.
>>>       
>> I would assume this is in relevant to the fact that
>> Canadians have an unlimited health care system.  As a
>> Canadian, i'm proud that every hospital provides some
>> kind of emergency assistance.  It can't provide the
>> highest level of manufacturing as it's busy trying to
>> provide for all.  I would agree that US may have five
>> times as many MRI machines per capita as Canada and
>> guaranteed shorter waits for such machines but at
>> least they are available to all individuals.
>>     
>
> The fact that there are five times as many MRI machines in the US as
> Canada suggests that there is more profit to be made in MRI's. If it
> actually turned out that diverting funds from other areas to MRI
> machines improved health outcomes then why wouldn't bureaucrats in
> Canada or anywhere else do this?
>
>   
Budget constraints?  Socialized care means that politicians decide what 
are reasonable treatment levels and facilities.  I am not at all sure 
this is better than private industry of various medical kinds doing the 
same.  At least the private system is likely to have a bit more 
competition.   I am not sure which of the ills of US medicine to blame 
on insurance companies, hospitals and other private groups versus how 
much is largely precisely because of much greater government involvement 
in US healthcare for quite some time now.   Would fully socialized 
government-run health care be better than this mixture.  Maybe.  But I 
would give a larger "maybe" that getting government almost completely 
out of healthcare would be better. 

Bottom line for me personally is where I can get the best care as this 
boomer body of mine ages.   So far I don't believe that is anywhere else 
that has socialized medicine.    That being the case I don't see why I 
would push for it here.

- samantha





>
>
>   

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From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 08:16:09 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:16:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071017015733.0237ab10@satx.rr.com>
References: <187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<0E3E10E1-88BA-4960-B93D-C7F71D00A3CB@ceruleansystems.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071017015733.0237ab10@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6BF2B972-FA2F-473E-9F34-44D07F067B71@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 17, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> quoting from somebody on another list:


I appreciate the anecdote, but it does not recommend anything.  I'm  
not against universal healthcare per se, I'm just against replicating  
every bad mistake made in other universal healthcare systems.  Most  
proponents of copying various socialized medicine systems from other  
countries tend to willfully overlook the serious downsides to those  
models which does not help their position.

On the purely anecdotal level, I grew up on "free" US healthcare so  
it is not exactly a foreign concept to me.


My study of the subject leads me to the following "facts" of sorts:

- US-style healthcare is economically inefficient in many ways

- European-style healthcare delivers relatively poor outcomes  
compared to what is possible

- Both the US and European models are considered fundamentally broken  
by economists for different reasons, and they suggest new models that  
no one is using.

- US healthcare delivers significantly superior average outcomes that  
set the benchmark for absolute quality

- European healthcare delivers significantly more even access to  
treatment at less cost

- The average health of citizens has almost nothing to do with  
healthcare access, as that is primarily a function of lifestyle


We can do a lot better and it does not involve copying someone else's  
crap system.  The world needs a system that is willing to invest in  
maximizing outcomes like the US, but without the byzantine  
inefficiency and conflicting incentives.  The world needs a system  
that is more accessible like Europe, but without sacrificing  
improving average outcomes to rationing and equality of access.

Moving the US system to a European system would be a disaster because  
it destroy average healthcare outcomes and would kill a lot of people  
needlessly.  Also, the entire world benefits from the amount of  
research the US actually does toward improving outcomes, so  
disincentivizing the US would be bad for everyone.  At the same time,  
there is no reason whatsoever for countries with European style  
healthcare to copy the inefficient and byzantine structure of US  
healthcare; it is not the inefficient and byzantine parts that  
produce the superior health outcomes.


In short, show me something better rather than differently broken.   
In the particular case of the US there is some value in maintaining  
an incentive structure that tends to improve outcomes even if it is  
grossly inefficient as currently implemented, primarily because there  
is no one else waiting in the wings to pick up the slack if the US  
stops investing in this.  If a major European country switched to a  
US-style system it would be no great disaster, but if the US switched  
to a European-style system it would affect everyone.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From andrew at ceruleansystems.com  Wed Oct 17 08:22:55 2007
From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:22:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <471624CE.5090000@mac.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<471624CE.5090000@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00F6FF46-A03A-4285-9473-0AA882D60B6A@ceruleansystems.com>


On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:05 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> Socialized care means that politicians decide what are reasonable  
> treatment levels and facilities.


To put it concisely in terms that will make it easy to digest:    
Would anyone here like the Christian Fundamentalist wing of the  
Republican party legislating what healthcare you may or may not  
receive?  It takes but a single election...

When you give the government a power, you give it to both your best  
political allies and your worst political enemies.  If you don't mind  
your worst political enemies dictating your healthcare, then by all  
means give them the power because eventually that power will rest in  
their hands.

Cheers,

J. Andrew Rogers



From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 10:42:27 2007
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:42:27 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <471624CE.5090000@mac.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<471624CE.5090000@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f21c22e30710170342t6cb2679fx8d47ffae2c10539a@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/10/2007, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

>  The fact that there are five times as many MRI machines in the US as
> Canada suggests that there is more profit to be made in MRI's. If it
> actually turned out that diverting funds from other areas to MRI
> machines improved health outcomes then why wouldn't bureaucrats in
> Canada or anywhere else do this?
>
>
>  Budget constraints?  Socialized care means that politicians decide what are
> reasonable treatment levels and facilities.  I am not at all sure this is
> better than private industry of various medical kinds doing the same.  At
> least the private system is likely to have a bit more competition.

The competition will be competition to make as much profit as
possible. What works to bring about cheaper and better consumer goods
will not necessarily work for health care, that's the problem. The US
spends a greater proportion of GDP on health care than most developed
countries but has worse overall health outcomes than most developed
countries. There may be multiple reasons for this but the net
conclusion has to be, someone must be profiting at the expense of the
average US health consumer.

>  Bottom line for me personally is where I can get the best care as this
> boomer body of mine ages.   So far I don't believe that is anywhere else
> that has socialized medicine.    That being the case I don't see why I would
> push for it here.

If cost is no object to you then there isn't anything you can get
anywhere else in the world that you won't get in the US. But in most
other developed countries, you can get a similar level of care at no
cost or minimal cost. In many of these countries there is a parallel
private health care system for those that prefer it. In Australia, the
advantage of the private system is that there are shorter waiting
lists for elective surgery, and you have a greater choice of hospital
and doctor. The disadvantage is that the largest centres where the
most costly and complex procedures are performed are all public
anyway.



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From amara at amara.com  Wed Oct 17 07:41:07 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:41:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
Message-ID: <p06230900c33b6826b9cf@[192.168.11.3]>

From: David Masten <dmasten at piratelabs.org>
>On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 00:07 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>>  Does anyone know what the danger is from geosynchronous "space junk"?
>>  I would expect most of the junk is in lower orbits but it seems like a
>>  good thing to know in planning such a large orbital project.

>Somewhere between minimal and none. Satellite operators pretty much own
>their 'slots' in practice so they keep their slots clean - retired
>satellites are put in a lower junkyard orbit.

And when the satellites are moved up or down from GEO, where do you you
think the debris particles go ? Nobody thinks very much about the sub-cm
stuff because there are few/no debris-dust detectors in GEO. But if anyone
cares to know, there is 4-5 times more debris particles in GEO than
natural micrometeorites, and the debris particles have surprisingly long
lifetimes. (> year for particles < 10^{-4} m [1])

>But this raises an interesting question - what slots are these space
>solar satellites going to occupy? Most of the useful slots (i.e. the
>ones visible from industrialized nations) are already filled.

Can the existing satellite operators can 'sell' their slot? As I
understand, those GEO slots are negotiated in international
governmental agreements,  not very different from the the
allocation of radio frequency slots on a local level. (Hopefully
people who know more can jump in.)

Amara
www.amara.com

Reference
[1] Bunte, Kalle, "Debris Cloud Evolution", Technical Note of
Work Package B410, ESA Contract: 16272/02/NL/EC, Processing,
Analysis and Interpretation of Data from Impact Detectors,
2004-01-30.



From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 11:36:18 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:36:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <200710170636.19063.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 17 October 2007 01:58, Eugen Leitl wrote: 
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:47:50PM +0200, Dagon Gmail wrote:
> > me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
> > all wrong.
>
> Then go into engineering, or start a business, and make it happen.
> I'm serious. If you don't yet know what do with your life, that's
> an interesting and lucrative niche. Before very long, it will
> become a mature industry, and entry threshold will have become
> too high for small new players.

Better yet, to get the space-industry you (Dagon) want, try also helping 
out the open source rocketry scene. At the moment it is quite limited:

http://opensourcespacecraft.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.developspace.net/wiki/Main_Page

Akin's laws of spacecraft design:
http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/academics/akins_laws.html 

Our friends at Artemis (join the mailing list):
http://www.asi.org/adb/04/02/

Some spacecraft design references:
http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/design_lib/design_lib.html

Note URL:
http://www.hellsgeriatrics.co.uk/diy-spacecraft.htm
http://spacecraft.sourceforge.net/

Spacecraft design archives:
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~cdhall/Space/archives/cat_design.html

My favorite spacecraft design bibliography:
http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/general/bib.html

http://spacelist.org/design.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_design
http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/design_lib/SC_design_library.html

- Bryan


From alito at organicrobot.com  Wed Oct 17 12:13:02 2007
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:13:02 +1000
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <ee50357e0710160420v2050d8aap5937954a2adce48e@mail.gmail.com>
	<08F0DDA2-84AE-4BE4-93EC-BB057776E323@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <1192623182.12297.188.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 12:38 -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:
> If you remove things like accidents from the death statistics (which  
> are atypically high in the US), you find that Americans are about the  
> longest lived people in the industrialized world.  It is not because  
> Americans are particularly healthy, but that the survival rates for  
> many dangerous diseases (and particularly cancer) in the US often  
> dwarf that of the rest of the industrialized world.  As an extreme  
> example that was in the news recently, an average person with cancer  
> in the US has a 30-35% higher survival rate than the average person  
> with cancer in the UK.  As the population ages, factors like this  
> will matter greatly.
> 

Unless by 'thing like accidents' you mean heart disease, your statement
is at odds with the numbers I see.  

The US has a lifespan in the bottom half of the OECD countries.  It is
way below the top countries (77.8 @2004 vs 82.1 for Japan.  Japan hasn't
been below 77.8 since 1988) It goes to the top half at 65 years of age,
but it is still not in the top ten.  (see
http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,3343,en_2825_495642_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html , get the sample data).  Or go through their beta statistics page which should stay in beta. (http://stats.oecd.org/wbos/default.aspx)

The problem is not accident rate, but heart disease (see
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/57/63/35625138.pdf). The differences there
dominate the  differences in cancer death rates (see top graphs of
<http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/pubs/system-regime/2002-fed-comp-indicat/2002-health-sante6_e.html> or page 27 of  <http://books.google.com/books?id=VwepWgIN_0YC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=cancer+death+rate+oecd&source=web&ots=RIts_V6KbW&sig=aI18VIo8eVrupAkgwOwO_GO1xhI> )

Survival is high, but death rate is "standard" => high level of early
detection?





From extropy at unreasonable.com  Wed Oct 17 16:53:58 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:53:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How to get a healthy country
In-Reply-To: <CD8EEA8E-17A8-472C-A4F7-04DB32365B57@ceruleansystems.com>
References: <6D01B77F-F300-4183-AD9C-1102A9B67D4C@ceruleansystems.com>
	<187000.26244.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f21c22e30710162235l768d599cwe2e971fc94e8d5e0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY124-DAV12FF4B004E999B1ABC4153A39D0@phx.gbl>
	<f21c22e30710162311t5ee4b44ex32a43a284e497332@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD03EC0F-0F78-490C-A598-D2235624EC80@ceruleansystems.com>
	<f21c22e30710162347q6bfe4a49rbb031692d709d59b@mail.gmail.com>
	<CD8EEA8E-17A8-472C-A4F7-04DB32365B57@ceruleansystems.com>
Message-ID: <200710171655.l9HGtAj09489@unreasonable.com>

Stathis asked:

 > Are you saying that people were just as well educated in the
 > nineteenth century?

To add to what J. Andrew Rogers said --

Somewhere I have 19th century US grade school proficiency tests and 
college entry exams. It is jaw-dropping to see how much folks were 
expected to know. I'm going to make a note to look for them.

Since I don't have them, I quote from Heinlein ("The Happy Days 
Ahead", in Expanded Universe, pp 521-2 in the hardcover) --

[eliding his comments on what was being taught in schools when he 
wrote the essay in 1980]

>My father never went to college. He attended high school in a 
>southern Missouri town of 3000+, then attended a private 2-year 
>academy roughly analogous to junior college today, except that it 
>was *very* small -- had to be; a day school, and Missouri had no paved roads.
>
>Here are some of the subjects he studied in back-country 19th 
>century schools: Latin, Greek, physics (natural philosophy), French, 
>geometry, algebra, 1st year calculus, bookkeeping, American history, 
>World history, chemistry, geology.
>
>Twenty-eight years later I attended a much larger city high school. 
>I took Latin and French but Greek was not offered; I took physics 
>and chemistry but geology was not offered. I took geometry and 
>algebra but calculus was not offered. I took American history and 
>ancient history but no comprehensive history course was offered. 
>Anyone wishing a comprehensive history course could take (each a 
>one-year 5-hrs/wk course) ancient history, medieval history, modern 
>European history, and American history -- and note that the 
>available courses ignored all of Asia, all of South America, all of 
>Africa except ancient Egypt, and touched Canada and Mexico solely 
>with respect to our wars with each.
         :
> From my father's textbook I know that the world history course he 
> studied was not detailed (how could it be?) but at least it treated 
> the world as *round*; it did not ignore three fourths of our planet.
         :
>[H]igh school and college students can't do simple arithmetic 
>without using a pocket calculator. (I mean with pencil on paper; to 
>ask one to do *mental* arithmetic causes jaws to drop -- say 17 x 
>34, done mentally. How? Answer: Chuck away the 34 but remember it. 
>(10 + 7)**2 is 289, obviously. Double it: 2 *(300-11), or 578.
>
>But my father would have given the answer at once, as his country 
>grammar school a century ago required *perfect* memorizing of 
>multiplication tables *through 20 x 20 = 400* ... so his ciphering 
>the above would have been merely the doubling of a number already 
>known (289) -- or 578. He might have done it again by another route 
>to check it: (68 + 510) -- but his hesitation would not have been noticeable.


-- David.



From amara at amara.com  Wed Oct 17 18:02:27 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:02:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
Message-ID: <p06230904c33bfe45eea3@[150.146.134.133]>

Some information, related to this topic.
Amara


Orbital Debris Quarterly News
Volume 11, Issue 3 July 2007


Detection of Debris from Chinese ASAT Test
Increases; One Minor Fragmentation Event
in Second Quarter of 2007

The extent of the debris cloud created by the destruction of the
Fengyun-1C meteorological satellite on 11 January 2007 by a Chinese
ballistic interceptor is becoming more apparent as routine and special
radar observations of the fragments provide more data. By the end of
June 2007 the U.S. Space Surveillance Network (SSN) was tracking more
than 2200 objects with a size of at least 5 cm.

More than 1900 of these debris had been officially cataloged, making
the event by far the worst satellite fragmentation of the space age. The
Chinese anti-satellite (ASAT) test coupled with other satellite breakups
in the first quarter of the year has resulted in an increase of
fragmentation debris in Earth orbit of an estimated 75% (Figure 1).

The Fengyun-1C debris cloud extends from 200 km to 4000 km in altitude,
with the highest concentration near the breakup altitude of
approximately 850 km. The debris orbits are rapidly spreading (Figure 2)
and will essentially encircle the globe by the end of the year. Only a
few known debris had reentered more than five months after the test,
and the majority will remain in orbit for many decades.

The large number of debris from Fengyun-1C are posing greater collision
risks for spacecraft operating in low Earth orbit. The number of close
approaches has risen significantly. On 22 June, NASA's Terra spacecraft
had to execute a collision avoidance maneuver to evade a fragment from
Fengyun- 1C that was on a trajectory which would have passed within 19
meters of Terra.

After a flurry of satellite breakups in the first quarter of 2007, the
next three months witnessed only one minor fragmentation classified as
an anomalous event. An anomalous event is normally characterized by the
release of only one or a few debris with very small separation
velocities. The debris appear to "fall-off " their parent satellites,
probably due to environmental degradation or small particle impacts
(Johnson, 2004).

In April a new piece (U.S. Satellite Number 31408) from the derelict
U.S. Seasat spacecraft (International Designator 1978- 064A, U.S.
Satellite Number 10967) was detected. This was the 15th debris from
Seasat cataloged since 1983 and the fourth seen during the past four
years (Figure 3). These debris exhibit a variety of ballistic coeffi-
cients, but all decay relatively rapidly compared to Seasat itself,
which is in a stable, nearly circular orbit near 750 km. Additional
debris have been briefly detected from Seasat, but they have reentered
prior to being cataloged. The source of the debris could be either the
spacecraft or the Agena upper stage to which it is still attached.

Early in 2006 an anomalous event involving the 46-year-old Vanguard 3
was detected (Orbital Debris Quarterly News, 10-3, p. 2). A second piece
has now been cataloged (U.S. Satellite Number 31405), and it is likely
to have also separated from Vanguard 3 in 2006, possibly about the time
of the first piece. The newly discovered debris is decaying at a slower
pace than the debris seen last year, but both are falling back to Earth
much faster than Vanguard 3 from its orbit of 500 km by 3300 km.

1. Johnson, N.L., "Environmentally-Induced Debris Sources", Advances in
Space Research, Vol. 34, Issue 5, pp. 993-999, 2004.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 21:35:37 2007
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:35:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/16/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Why can't all cars and light trucks be electric?  And why wouldn't a
> substantial decrease in oil burned help?

Absolutely spot on Samantha.

This thread has gone in many directions.  Permit me to pull a few of
those diverse elements together.  Call this sub-thread The Smart Grid
Smart Transport System (SGSTS).

I think Eugen was the first to mention here(though it's otherwise an
old concept) the use of roof-top PV as a widespread decentralized
power generation system.   I would add to that a road surface PV
system.  This dual use strategy adds substantial power collection area
without using up more land.  Electrifying the roadway, that is making
the electricity available to the vehicles on the road, would merely be
an additional feature of an SGSTS system.

The electric vehicles, the roadway system, and the larger power grid
would all communicate and deploy their resources in a coordinated
fashion.  This coordination gives the system its "smartness" and
delivers substantial benefits.

Vehicles for the most part drive themselves, and receive the necessary
location, local road and traffic condition, and other vital data from
the system, which obviously would be thoroughly networked with a wider
world data network (www v5.0).  Safety, energy efficiency, and time
savings would be substantial.  Trucks would convoy nose to tail
markedly reducing energy use by reducing drag.  (An adjunct to road
transport would be high speed vacuum tunnel trains, further increasing
time savings and further reducing energy costs.)  All vehicles would
have their routing coordinated so there would be very little stop and
go, which reduces travel time and eliminates losses from unnecessary
acceleration and braking (the latter in any event would be
regenerative).

Each individual electric vehicle would have a battery pack of
appropriate capacity, and the combined inventory of hundreds of
millions (billions worldwide) of these "energy storage units"  would
be "smartly" connected to the larger power grid and employed(in the
many hours when not actually on the road and consuming electricity) in
a load smoothing function.  The capital costs of power generation
would thus be reduced because vehicle batteries would be charged at
night when power consumption would otherwise be low and expensive
power generation infrastructure otherwise operating well below (ie
wastefully) capacity.

These are the kinds of benefits to be derived from the information
revolution.  This is what "smart" means when we speak of smart cars
and roads and houses and business, etc.

Tip of the "smart" iceberg.

Are we having fun yet?  He he he he.
--
Best, Jeff Davis

              "Everything's hard till you
                    know how to do it."
                             Ray Charles


From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 22:06:41 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:06:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710171706.42024.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 17 October 2007 16:35, Jeff Davis wrote:
> I think Eugen was the first to mention here(though it's otherwise an
> old concept) the use of roof-top PV as a widespread decentralized
> power generation system. ? I would add to that a road surface PV
> system.

I seem to remember plans for large Tesla coils on the side of the road 
as a way of wireless/inductive energy transfer to moving vehicles. I am 
not sure if it is practical, i.e. if the coils would have to be so 
close making it all ridiculous.

- Bryan


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Oct 18 00:11:25 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:11:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Smart Grid Smart Transport System (SGSTS).
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<00bf01c80da2$1a3800c0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2>
	<20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1192666223_26689@S4.cableone.net>

At 02:35 PM 10/17/2007, Jeff Davis wrote:

snip

>I think Eugen was the first to mention here(though it's otherwise an
>old concept) the use of roof-top PV as a widespread decentralized
>power generation system.   I would add to that a road surface PV
>system.

Do you have the *least* idea of the engineering and maintenance 
problems you would have with a PV surface on the roads?  Talk to an 
engineer or better yet the grunts that work on road surfaces.  Pre 
smart matter, this is just impossible.  Post smart matter I doubt 
anyone will care.

>This dual use strategy adds substantial power collection area
>without using up more land.  Electrifying the roadway, that is making
>the electricity available to the vehicles on the road, would merely be
>an additional feature of an SGSTS system.

Again, how are you going to transfer the energy to the 
vehicles?  What's it going to cost?  How is it going to be maintained?

>The electric vehicles, the roadway system, and the larger power grid
>would all communicate and deploy their resources in a coordinated
>fashion.  This coordination gives the system its "smartness" and
>delivers substantial benefits.
>
>Vehicles for the most part drive themselves, and receive the necessary
>location, local road and traffic condition, and other vital data from
>the system, which obviously would be thoroughly networked with a wider
>world data network (www v5.0).  Safety, energy efficiency, and time
>savings would be substantial.  Trucks would convoy nose to tail
>markedly reducing energy use by reducing drag.  (An adjunct to road
>transport would be high speed vacuum tunnel trains, further increasing
>time savings and further reducing energy costs.)  All vehicles would
>have their routing coordinated so there would be very little stop and
>go, which reduces travel time and eliminates losses from unnecessary
>acceleration and braking (the latter in any event would be
>regenerative).
>
>Each individual electric vehicle would have a battery pack of
>appropriate capacity, and the combined inventory of hundreds of
>millions (billions worldwide) of these "energy storage units"  would
>be "smartly" connected to the larger power grid and employed(in the
>many hours when not actually on the road and consuming electricity) in
>a load smoothing function.  The capital costs of power generation
>would thus be reduced because vehicle batteries would be charged at
>night when power consumption would otherwise be low and expensive
>power generation infrastructure otherwise operating well below (ie
>wastefully) capacity.
>
>These are the kinds of benefits to be derived from the information
>revolution.  This is what "smart" means when we speak of smart cars
>and roads and houses and business, etc.
>
>Tip of the "smart" iceberg.
>
>Are we having fun yet?  He he he he.

Ah.  Joke. Sorry.

Keith 



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 06:16:33 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:46:33 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>

I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
upcoming elections:

http://www.senatoronline.org.au/

>From the site:
-----------
Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.

Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party? it is
neither Liberal nor Labor.

Senator On-Line ('SOL') is a truly democratic party which will allow
everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the
internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators
vote in accordance with a clear majority view.

We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House
(Senate) elections.

When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:

- Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues
- The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral
roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing
our country
- A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament
- Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one
vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.

SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the
clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.

Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the
political process and the shaping of our country.
-----------

Related news:

Online Party Hopes to Click with Voters
http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/online-party-hopes-to-click-with-voters/2007/10/18/1192300920221.html?page=2

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 18 06:39:23 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:39:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710171706.42024.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710171706.42024.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071018063922.GN4005@leitl.org>

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 05:06:41PM -0500, Bryan Bishop wrote:

> I seem to remember plans for large Tesla coils on the side of the road 
> as a way of wireless/inductive energy transfer to moving vehicles. I am 

It doesn't have to be wireless. Ever ridden in a trolley bus, or
a subway?

> not sure if it is practical, i.e. if the coils would have to be so 
> close making it all ridiculous.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Oct 18 06:58:39 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:58:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071018015703.0232dc78@satx.rr.com>

At 03:46 PM 10/18/2007 +0930, Emmers admired:

>Senator On-Line ('SOL')

Pity "SOL" is vernacular for "Shit Outta Luck." These comrades need 
some PR assist.

Damien Broderick



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 07:24:11 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:54:11 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071018015703.0232dc78@satx.rr.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071018015703.0232dc78@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710180024s5b650248wbfa0de428435ac9@mail.gmail.com>

I'm a bit concerned by this:

"When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will
provide..."

I'm thinking they might want to start on that web site early. I don't
think a last minute FrontPage job is going to do the trick...

Emlyn

On 18/10/2007, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> At 03:46 PM 10/18/2007 +0930, Emmers admired:
>
> >Senator On-Line ('SOL')
>
> Pity "SOL" is vernacular for "Shit Outta Luck." These comrades need
> some PR assist.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 18 00:19:50 2007
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:19:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4716A6A6.4050806@mindspring.com>

Excellent idea.  If they get good response to the initial concept, may I 
suggest this addition which is like the idea of delegation advocated 
independently about 30 years ago by Professor John McCarthy and myself 
at Stanford:

Trying to make the many decisions of a modern nation will overload and 
wear out most of the direct voters of SOL.  Consider adding the ability 
to say "make my votes like the recommendations of NNN", where NNN is any 
member willing to be considered an opinion leader or wise 
representative.  Or accomplish the same thing with explicit electronic 
"proxies" that can be cast by the person who holds them.  Overloaded 
voters can give their proxies to anyone they trust, reducing the 
information processing load on them.

  - David Harris, Palo Alto


Emlyn wrote:
> I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
> upcoming elections:
>
> http://www.senatoronline.org.au/
>
> >From the site:
> -----------
> Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.
>
> Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party? it is
> neither Liberal nor Labor.
>
> Senator On-Line ('SOL') is a truly democratic party which will allow
> everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the
> internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators
> vote in accordance with a clear majority view.
>
> We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House
> (Senate) elections.
>
> When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:
>
> - Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues
> - The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral
> roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing
> our country
> - A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament
> - Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one
> vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.
>
> SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the
> clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.
>
> Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the
> political process and the shaping of our country.
> -----------
>
> Related news:
>
> Online Party Hopes to Click with Voters
> http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/online-party-hopes-to-click-with-voters/2007/10/18/1192300920221.html?page=2
>
>   

-- 
 David Harris, Palo Alto, California.
               GPS location: 37.41988, -122.13388 (1984 WGS system).
 Active account: dharris234 at mindspring.com 
 Phone: 1-650-856-9126 (has answering machine or me)
 Lifetime e-mail forwarding account: David.C.Harris at stanfordalumni.org
 Postal ("snail mail") address: David Harris
                                Medintrans
                                455 Margarita Ave.
                                Palo Alto, CA  94306-2827



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 07:50:02 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:20:02 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <4716A6A6.4050806@mindspring.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<4716A6A6.4050806@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710180050r3262fe11va0debfe8c70cb5ba@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not a political scientist, but...

IMO, that's a bad idea. It's going to lead to major party voting
blocks, like we have now. I really think, if you care about an issue,
then vote on it. If you don't really know, can't figure it out, can't
be bothered, then don't.

With a proxy scheme like below, I imagine the major parties would go
round up enough true believers to have large voting power, then duke
it out amongst themselves, making a mockery of the whole idea, leaving
people who really care about issues but who haven't gathered proxies
out in the cold.

If you want representative democracy, you already have it. The point
of this idea is to try out something else (participatory online
democracy).

Emlyn

On 18/10/2007, David C. Harris <dharris234 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Excellent idea.  If they get good response to the initial concept, may I
> suggest this addition which is like the idea of delegation advocated
> independently about 30 years ago by Professor John McCarthy and myself
> at Stanford:
>
> Trying to make the many decisions of a modern nation will overload and
> wear out most of the direct voters of SOL.  Consider adding the ability
> to say "make my votes like the recommendations of NNN", where NNN is any
> member willing to be considered an opinion leader or wise
> representative.  Or accomplish the same thing with explicit electronic
> "proxies" that can be cast by the person who holds them.  Overloaded
> voters can give their proxies to anyone they trust, reducing the
> information processing load on them.
>
>  - David Harris, Palo Alto
>
>
> Emlyn wrote:
> > I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
> > upcoming elections:
> >
> > http://www.senatoronline.org.au/
> >
> > >From the site:
> > -----------
> > Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.
> >
> > Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party? it is
> > neither Liberal nor Labor.
> >
> > Senator On-Line ('SOL') is a truly democratic party which will allow
> > everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the
> > internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators
> > vote in accordance with a clear majority view.
> >
> > We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House
> > (Senate) elections.
> >
> > When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:
> >
> > - Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues
> > - The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral
> > roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing
> > our country
> > - A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament
> > - Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one
> > vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.
> >
> > SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the
> > clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.
> >
> > Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the
> > political process and the shaping of our country.
> > -----------
> >
> > Related news:
> >
> > Online Party Hopes to Click with Voters
> > http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/online-party-hopes-to-click-with-voters/2007/10/18/1192300920221.html?page=2
> >
> >
>
> --
>  David Harris, Palo Alto, California.
>               GPS location: 37.41988, -122.13388 (1984 WGS system).
>  Active account: dharris234 at mindspring.com
>  Phone: 1-650-856-9126 (has answering machine or me)
>  Lifetime e-mail forwarding account: David.C.Harris at stanfordalumni.org
>  Postal ("snail mail") address: David Harris
>                                Medintrans
>                                455 Margarita Ave.
>                                Palo Alto, CA  94306-2827
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 10:14:12 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:14:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org> <20071013144841.GR4005@leitl.org>
	<001c01c80dd5$15f7b6d0$ff044e0c@MyComputer>
	<1192316146_98853@S4.cableone.net>
	<6410423A-80F2-4062-A42F-305B29C7B100@mac.com>
	<1192387807_39235@S1.cableone.net>
	<8415B6B0-BC0F-46F5-990D-2429095D2626@mac.com>
	<1192565753_50032@S1.cableone.net>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710180314i33f4a63at9fc9ce613527117f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/07, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> We *are* already harvesting solar energy. There's four orders
> of magnitude more energy at the bottom of the gravity well
> we currently need. Advanced cultures probably don't need more
> than 10-100 W for a single human equivalent individual.
>


Yes, Solar power seems to be the tech to bet your money on.

Another blog entry makes the point that when contemplating the future,
we should remember the basic principle that 'What we will get is what
the Pentagon wants'.

<http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/columns/executive_tech/article.php/3705786>
Quote:
Computers, cell phones, the Internet and GPS -- these
world-transforming technologies exist, and work they way they do, only
because the military needed them. And they proliferate in the consumer
marketplace because they're compatible with human desire.
-------------------

The Pentagon currently has a huge logistical problem supplying
gasoline and batteries to the troops in Iraq. And I mean 'HUGE'.
They desperately need solar power (or some equivalent universal power
source) and they will keep funding R&D until they get it.
Then the consumers will get it also.

BillK


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Oct 18 10:44:47 2007
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710180024s5b650248wbfa0de428435ac9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071018015703.0232dc78@satx.rr.com>
	<710b78fc0710180024s5b650248wbfa0de428435ac9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60871.72.236.103.35.1192704287.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

> I'm a bit concerned by this:
>
> "When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will
> provide..."
>
> I'm thinking they might want to start on that web site early. I don't
> think a last minute FrontPage job is going to do the trick...
>

I would think the security could be a problem. A "bad guy" could send many votes to
throw things one direction or another. IMHO this could have the same difficulties as
on-line elections...

Regards,
MB



From dagonweb at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 12:56:11 2007
From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:56:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <200710170636.19063.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
	<200710170636.19063.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf3acbfc0710180556s29b96f49t2c0ede4ebc5449f7@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for urging me to become a rocket scientist.

> On Wednesday 17 October 2007 01:58, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:47:50PM +0200, Dagon Gmail wrote:
> > > me a nauseous feeling. My gut is telling me things are going
> > > all wrong.
> >
> > Then go into engineering, or start a business, and make it happen.
> > I'm serious. If you don't yet know what do with your life, that's
> > an interesting and lucrative niche. Before very long, it will
> > become a mature industry, and entry threshold will have become
> > too high for small new players.
>
> Better yet, to get the space-industry you (Dagon) want, try also helping
> out the open source rocketry scene. At the moment it is quite limited:
>
> http://opensourcespacecraft.org/wiki/Main_Page
> http://www.developspace.net/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Akin's laws of spacecraft design:
> http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/academics/akins_laws.html
>
> Our friends at Artemis (join the mailing list):
> http://www.asi.org/adb/04/02/
>
> Some spacecraft design references:
> http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/design_lib/design_lib.html
>
> Note URL:
> http://www.hellsgeriatrics.co.uk/diy-spacecraft.htm
> http://spacecraft.sourceforge.net/
>
> Spacecraft design archives:
> http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~cdhall/Space/archives/cat_design.html
>
> My favorite spacecraft design bibliography:
> http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/archive/general/bib.html
>
> http://spacelist.org/design.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_design
> http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/old_site/design_lib/SC_design_library.html
>
> - Bryan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Oct 18 13:15:08 2007
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:15:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pentagon wants orbiting solar power stations
In-Reply-To: <bf3acbfc0710180556s29b96f49t2c0ede4ebc5449f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071013124825.GM4005@leitl.org>
	<bf3acbfc0710161347w70d4624fnfac9e5e639a14edb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071017065812.GQ4005@leitl.org>
	<200710170636.19063.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<bf3acbfc0710180556s29b96f49t2c0ede4ebc5449f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071018131508.GW4005@leitl.org>

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 02:56:11PM +0200, Dagon Gmail wrote:

> Thanks for urging me to become a rocket scientist.

I didn't. If you want to make private space development happen,
create a successful business, and invest earned gigabucks into space
projects. If you can pull that off, the more power to you.

Rocketry is a mature discipline, it takes exceptional personal
and financial resources to make a difference there.

Entering a career in renewables is small-scale and relatively
easy in comparison. 

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From brent.allsop at comcast.net  Thu Oct 18 16:56:42 2007
From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:56:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710180050r3262fe11va0debfe8c70cb5ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>	<4716A6A6.4050806@mindspring.com>
	<710b78fc0710180050r3262fe11va0debfe8c70cb5ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4717904A.9090902@comcast.net>


Emlyn,

Yes that isn't the way to do it.  You don't want just another party 
system with only two choices for everything.
And even having a bunch of representative leaders that are expected to 
vote on everything results in terrible leadership bottle necks.  You 
can't expect any single leader at the top of a hierarchy to be an expert 
on all issues a government must vote on.

We're trying something completely different with the Canonizer, and a 
prototype is already running at http://canonizer.com.

Anyone can delegate their "vote" to any other person, on any topic or 
issue being voted on resulting in a hyperdelegated networks of trees on 
all issues.  So you get leaders, or delegates, with large earned tree 
structures of trust on single issues.  The larger a tree a person 
"earns" the more influence they get (since all delegated votes in a tree 
follow them as they jump "camps"), at least on that one issue.  If 
anyone ever screws up, their delegated tree can vanish instantly as 
voters switch to other growing trees of still trusted people.  Each 
issue to be voted on can have drastically different delegated tree 
structures, effectively resulting in different, possibly very powerful, 
leaders on each issue.  You no longer have to just be either democrat or 
republican.  You get to choose your delegates for each issue, at any 
level, with hyper networked delegated tree structures.

In this way, you have all the benefits of a leaderless network, yet 
there are definitely leaders that can quickly change national or world 
policy in an instant, at least as long as they don't screw up and lose 
their delegated power structure.  And since different people can become 
the leaders on different issues, you have natural networked separation 
of powers and a very non bottleneck networked leadership which will no 
longer restricting the morality of institutions.

Another critical problem is:

- Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important 
issues

Who gets to decide, via what process, what is truly "balanced"?
We believe the best way to truly achieve this is with a canonizer type 
"camp with position statements" support structure like we are developing 
in the Canonizer.  You have the same hyperdelegated tree structure 
support system indicating who is in what "camp" for each competing 
"balanced" position statement.  And in addition to that, you get to 
chose who you trust to determine what is "balanced" and how to sort and 
filter the various position statements by selecting your preferred 
"Canonizer".  (i.e. YOU could chose to ignore the support of anyone that 
is in any "camp" on any issues that is demed delusional. (like the age 
of the earth being 6000 years old, the brain is just a conduit for the 
spirit see http://karolisr.canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/9  and so on right?)

Anyone can start a topic or new issue, perhaps promoting a particular 
action or new policy.  And as soon as a few powerful people join a 
"camp" that believes a particular action should be taken (all their 
delegated votes following them), you can get very fast response times.  
You no longer need to wait for another election 3 years down the road, 
or endless debate in a devided congress,  to get a president out of Iraq 
or whatever.  All the information on all sides of the issues is 
collaboratively developed in "camp position statements" real time for 
all to see and contribute to.

What do you think the chances are that the Canonizer, with its hyper 
networked delegated leadership structures, can take over the world and 
effectively rendering governments, religious and business hierarchies, 
and everything hierarchical meaningless?  After all, if a senator (or 
pope?) doesn't folow what the Canonizer says his constituents want, 
shouldn't he be thrown out of office?  And if so, what is he there for 
in the first place?  Lets get rid of all these established primitive 
immoral bottleneck leadership structures and throw big brother out on 
his ass!

Anyone else want to help us transhumanists finish developing and get 
this thing off the ground so we can hurry and conquer the world?  And 
get very rich while we do it?  All it takes is a bit of spare time.

http://test.canonizer.com/topic.asp/4

Upward,

Brent Allsop



Emlyn wrote:
> I'm not a political scientist, but...
>
> IMO, that's a bad idea. It's going to lead to major party voting
> blocks, like we have now. I really think, if you care about an issue,
> then vote on it. If you don't really know, can't figure it out, can't
> be bothered, then don't.
>
> With a proxy scheme like below, I imagine the major parties would go
> round up enough true believers to have large voting power, then duke
> it out amongst themselves, making a mockery of the whole idea, leaving
> people who really care about issues but who haven't gathered proxies
> out in the cold.
>
> If you want representative democracy, you already have it. The point
> of this idea is to try out something else (participatory online
> democracy).
>
> Emlyn
>
> On 18/10/2007, David C. Harris <dharris234 at mindspring.com> wrote:
>   
>> Excellent idea.  If they get good response to the initial concept, may I
>> suggest this addition which is like the idea of delegation advocated
>> independently about 30 years ago by Professor John McCarthy and myself
>> at Stanford:
>>
>> Trying to make the many decisions of a modern nation will overload and
>> wear out most of the direct voters of SOL.  Consider adding the ability
>> to say "make my votes like the recommendations of NNN", where NNN is any
>> member willing to be considered an opinion leader or wise
>> representative.  Or accomplish the same thing with explicit electronic
>> "proxies" that can be cast by the person who holds them.  Overloaded
>> voters can give their proxies to anyone they trust, reducing the
>> information processing load on them.
>>
>>  - David Harris, Palo Alto
>>
>>
>> Emlyn wrote:
>>     
>>> I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
>>> upcoming elections:
>>>
>>> http://www.senatoronline.org.au/
>>>
>>> >From the site:
>>> -----------
>>> Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.
>>>
>>> Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party? it is
>>> neither Liberal nor Labor.
>>>
>>> Senator On-Line ('SOL') is a truly democratic party which will allow
>>> everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the
>>> internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators
>>> vote in accordance with a clear majority view.
>>>
>>> We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House
>>> (Senate) elections.
>>>
>>> When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:
>>>
>>> - Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues
>>> - The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral
>>> roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing
>>> our country
>>> - A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament
>>> - Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one
>>> vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.
>>>
>>> SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the
>>> clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.
>>>
>>> Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the
>>> political process and the shaping of our country.
>>> -----------
>>>
>>> Related news:
>>>
>>> Online Party Hopes to Click with Voters
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/online-party-hopes-to-click-with-voters/2007/10/18/1192300920221.html?page=2
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> --
>>  David Harris, Palo Alto, California.
>>               GPS location: 37.41988, -122.13388 (1984 WGS system).
>>  Active account: dharris234 at mindspring.com
>>  Phone: 1-650-856-9126 (has answering machine or me)
>>  Lifetime e-mail forwarding account: David.C.Harris at stanfordalumni.org
>>  Postal ("snail mail") address: David Harris
>>                                Medintrans
>>                                455 Margarita Ave.
>>                                Palo Alto, CA  94306-2827
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>     
>
>
>   

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From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Oct 18 22:22:37 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:22:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics:  Paris Hilton Signed Up
Message-ID: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/Paris+Hilton-18098.html

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




From nvitamore at austin.rr.com  Thu Oct 18 22:32:08 2007
From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:32:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Watson's "racial" comment
Message-ID: <380-220071041822328787@M2W020.mail2web.com>

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/18/science.race/index.html

(I'm still in the midst reading this.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




From clementlawyer at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 18 23:37:02 2007
From: clementlawyer at hotmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:37:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics:  Paris Hilton Signed Up
In-Reply-To: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>

Maybe the overly-testosteroned guys who have made her a "star," will now
sign up for cryonics in the hope of sharing a dewar with Paris!

--------------------------
James Clement, J.D., LL.M.


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
nvitamore at austin.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:23 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics: Paris Hilton Signed Up

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/Paris+Hilton-18098.html

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Thu Oct 18 17:29:14 2007
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:29:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <4717904A.9090902@comcast.net>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>	<4716A6A6.4050806@mindspring.com>	<710b78fc0710180050r3262fe11va0debfe8c70cb5ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<4717904A.9090902@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <471797EA.2080806@mindspring.com>

Brent,

I am delighted to hear that you have recognized some of the 
opportunities and virtues of what I called "delegative democracy".  
Trees of delegation that could be delegated to other trees was part of 
my original thinking.  Do you have a solution to the problem of 
accidentally getting a loop of delegations?  Check before allowing a 
delegation (linkage of a subtree to another tree) and forbid formation 
of a loop?

Among the virtues of your full proposal is that it creates a new 
approach to the problem of districting and gerrymandering.  Why restrict 
the political units to only geographic clumps?  With your system, people 
could flexibly form "districts" according to their perception of what is 
important.  And one could be in different districts on different 
issues.  I could delegate with Libertarians on fiscal policies, with 
public health nurses on health care structures,  with a bicyclists' 
coalition on a local road issue, and with cryonicists on the issue of 
validity of contracts after a party's "death".  And as you suggest, the 
delegation (proxy) could be moved as desired anytime, including using it 
for direct voting by myself.

Last night I offered the simplified version (one level of delegation) to 
the "contact us" for the SOL party/group and they said they'd put it in 
the hopper in case they won a seat in the Australian legislature.

Could you clarify what "hyper networked" means in the Canonizer discussion?

I don't have a solution to the accurate information problem you cite, 
other than Google and competing presentations of issues ("checks and 
balances").

  - David Harris, Palo Alto


Brent Allsop wrote:
>
> Emlyn,
>
> Yes that isn't the way to do it.  You don't want just another party 
> system with only two choices for everything.
> And even having a bunch of representative leaders that are expected to 
> vote on everything results in terrible leadership bottle necks.  You 
> can't expect any single leader at the top of a hierarchy to be an 
> expert on all issues a government must vote on.
>
> We're trying something completely different with the Canonizer, and a 
> prototype is already running at http://canonizer.com.
>
> Anyone can delegate their "vote" to any other person, on any topic or 
> issue being voted on resulting in a hyperdelegated networks of trees 
> on all issues.  So you get leaders, or delegates, with large earned 
> tree structures of trust on single issues.  The larger a tree a person 
> "earns" the more influence they get (since all delegated votes in a 
> tree follow them as they jump "camps"), at least on that one issue.  
> If anyone ever screws up, their delegated tree can vanish instantly as 
> voters switch to other growing trees of still trusted people.  Each 
> issue to be voted on can have drastically different delegated tree 
> structures, effectively resulting in different, possibly very 
> powerful, leaders on each issue.  You no longer have to just be either 
> democrat or republican.  You get to choose your delegates for each 
> issue, at any level, with hyper networked delegated tree structures.
>
> In this way, you have all the benefits of a leaderless network, yet 
> there are definitely leaders that can quickly change national or world 
> policy in an instant, at least as long as they don't screw up and lose 
> their delegated power structure.  And since different people can 
> become the leaders on different issues, you have natural networked 
> separation of powers and a very non bottleneck networked leadership 
> which will no longer restricting the morality of institutions.
>
> Another critical problem is:
>
> - Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and 
> important issues
>
> Who gets to decide, via what process, what is truly "balanced"?
> We believe the best way to truly achieve this is with a canonizer type 
> "camp with position statements" support structure like we are 
> developing in the Canonizer.  You have the same hyperdelegated tree 
> structure support system indicating who is in what "camp" for each 
> competing "balanced" position statement.  And in addition to that, you 
> get to chose who you trust to determine what is "balanced" and how to 
> sort and filter the various position statements by selecting your 
> preferred "Canonizer".  (i.e. YOU could chose to ignore the support of 
> anyone that is in any "camp" on any issues that is demed delusional. 
> (like the age of the earth being 6000 years old, the brain is just a 
> conduit for the spirit see 
> http://karolisr.canonizer.com/topic.asp/23/9  and so on right?)
>
> Anyone can start a topic or new issue, perhaps promoting a particular 
> action or new policy.  And as soon as a few powerful people join a 
> "camp" that believes a particular action should be taken (all their 
> delegated votes following them), you can get very fast response 
> times.  You no longer need to wait for another election 3 years down 
> the road, or endless debate in a devided congress,  to get a president 
> out of Iraq or whatever.  All the information on all sides of the 
> issues is collaboratively developed in "camp position statements" real 
> time for all to see and contribute to.
>
> What do you think the chances are that the Canonizer, with its hyper 
> networked delegated leadership structures, can take over the world and 
> effectively rendering governments, religious and business hierarchies, 
> and everything hierarchical meaningless?  After all, if a senator (or 
> pope?) doesn't folow what the Canonizer says his constituents want, 
> shouldn't he be thrown out of office?  And if so, what is he there for 
> in the first place?  Lets get rid of all these established primitive 
> immoral bottleneck leadership structures and throw big brother out on 
> his ass!
>
> Anyone else want to help us transhumanists finish developing and get 
> this thing off the ground so we can hurry and conquer the world?  And 
> get very rich while we do it?  All it takes is a bit of spare time.
>
> http://test.canonizer.com/topic.asp/4
>
> Upward,
>
> Brent Allsop
>
>
>
> Emlyn wrote:
>> I'm not a political scientist, but...
>>
>> IMO, that's a bad idea. It's going to lead to major party voting
>> blocks, like we have now. I really think, if you care about an issue,
>> then vote on it. If you don't really know, can't figure it out, can't
>> be bothered, then don't.
>>
>> With a proxy scheme like below, I imagine the major parties would go
>> round up enough true believers to have large voting power, then duke
>> it out amongst themselves, making a mockery of the whole idea, leaving
>> people who really care about issues but who haven't gathered proxies
>> out in the cold.
>>
>> If you want representative democracy, you already have it. The point
>> of this idea is to try out something else (participatory online
>> democracy).
>>
>> Emlyn
>>
>> On 18/10/2007, David C. Harris <dharris234 at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>   
>>> Excellent idea.  If they get good response to the initial concept, may I
>>> suggest this addition which is like the idea of delegation advocated
>>> independently about 30 years ago by Professor John McCarthy and myself
>>> at Stanford:
>>>
>>> Trying to make the many decisions of a modern nation will overload and
>>> wear out most of the direct voters of SOL.  Consider adding the ability
>>> to say "make my votes like the recommendations of NNN", where NNN is any
>>> member willing to be considered an opinion leader or wise
>>> representative.  Or accomplish the same thing with explicit electronic
>>> "proxies" that can be cast by the person who holds them.  Overloaded
>>> voters can give their proxies to anyone they trust, reducing the
>>> information processing load on them.
>>>
>>>  - David Harris, Palo Alto
>>>
>>>
>>> Emlyn wrote:
>>>     
>>>> I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
>>>> upcoming elections:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.senatoronline.org.au/
>>>>
>>>> >From the site:
>>>> -----------
>>>> Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.
>>>>
>>>> Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party? it is
>>>> neither Liberal nor Labor.
>>>>
>>>> Senator On-Line ('SOL') is a truly democratic party which will allow
>>>> everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the
>>>> internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators
>>>> vote in accordance with a clear majority view.
>>>>
>>>> We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House
>>>> (Senate) elections.
>>>>
>>>> When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:
>>>>
>>>> - Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues
>>>> - The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral
>>>> roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing
>>>> our country
>>>> - A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament
>>>> - Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one
>>>> vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.
>>>>
>>>> SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the
>>>> clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.
>>>>
>>>> Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the
>>>> political process and the shaping of our country.
>>>> -----------
>>>>
>>>> Related news:
>>>>
>>>> Online Party Hopes to Click with Voters
>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/online-party-hopes-to-click-with-voters/2007/10/18/1192300920221.html?page=2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       

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From jef at jefallbright.net  Fri Oct 19 00:08:28 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:08:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Edge Special Question series: John Tooby
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710181708l7defdf2auabd75992a09218f0@mail.gmail.com>

This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel all tingly.

<http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/serpentine07/Tooby.htm>


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct 19 02:15:05 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Edge Special Question series: John Tooby
In-Reply-To: <f7bfe5740710181708l7defdf2auabd75992a09218f0@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <f7bfe5740710181708l7defdf2auabd75992a09218f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1192760044_77728@S4.cableone.net>

At 05:08 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
>This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel all tingly.

>http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/serpentine07/Tooby.htm

That doesn't work, but

  http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/serpentine07/Tooby.html

this does.

Keith Henson 



From pgptag at gmail.com  Fri Oct 19 07:42:42 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:42:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics: Paris Hilton Signed Up
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
References: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
	<BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <470a3c520710190042p16591cewfb5c576ccaec4ad1@mail.gmail.com>

If this is true (you never know) there will be a LOT of new interest
in cryonics for one or two weeks. Then the media and public interest
will die out as it happened for Williams. Cryonics does achieve a
media spike every now and then, but does not have enough critical mass
for permanent media and public attention yet.
G.

On 10/19/07, James Clement <clementlawyer at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe the overly-testosteroned guys who have made her a "star," will now
> sign up for cryonics in the hope of sharing a dewar with Paris!
>
> --------------------------
> James Clement, J.D., LL.M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
> nvitamore at austin.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:23 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] Cryonics: Paris Hilton Signed Up
>
> http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/Paris+Hilton-18098.html
>
> Natasha
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web LIVE - Free email based on MicrosoftR Exchange technology -
> http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pgptag at gmail.com  Fri Oct 19 15:35:18 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:35:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Two (!!!) transhumanist meetings tomorrow in Second Life
Message-ID: <470a3c520710190835n40d7dabewb68d2e3e7050e154@mail.gmail.com>

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/two_transhumanist_meetings_tomorrow_in_second_life/
http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2007-October/001625.html
http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/30850.html

>From the tt list: We're trying to revive the WTA activities in Second
Life. There will be a meeting on planned new focus on location and
type of activities. It would be nice to see a few new avatars there.
Location and time: WTA SL meeting on uvvy, (tomorrow) Saturday 20th
October 1:00 PM PDT(to find it, do a search for uvvy, an teleport to
uvvy island).

On the same day and hour, there is another interesting meeting
organized by Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Beyond Bionics: Transhumanism and
Virtual Worlds

Come join us for a *spirited* discussion of what's next for humans and
technology!  Don't miss this one, people - it's going to be *legendary*!

Saturday October 17, 1-3:30 SLT, The Diversionarium

Invited panelists include:

Giulio Perhaps: Giulio Prisco of the World Transhumanist Association
Extropia DaSilva: Transhumanist and essayist
dandellion Kimban: blogger and digital philosopher
Alexander Burgess: blogger and digital philosopher
Esteban Moody: blogger and digital philosopher
Argent Bury: blogger and digital philosopher

Perhaps we should merge the two meetings, what do you people think?
Answer here, on the tt list or Sophrosyne Stenvaag's blog.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Oct 19 15:30:57 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:30:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics: Paris Hilton Signed Up
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520710190042p16591cewfb5c576ccaec4ad1@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
	<BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
	<470a3c520710190042p16591cewfb5c576ccaec4ad1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710191531.l9JFV95O018032@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>

At 02:42 AM 10/19/2007, G. wrote:

>If this is true (you never know) there will be a LOT of new interest
>in cryonics for one or two weeks. Then the media and public interest
>will die out as it happened for Williams. Cryonics does achieve a
>media spike every now and then, but does not have enough critical mass
>for permanent media and public attention yet.

I believe Paris is a friend of Peaches Geldof.  Peaches interviewed 
me for a film in 2005 she was making. We  talked about transhumanism, 
cryonics, and the future.  Peaches was extremely interested in 
transhumanism, and fairly interested in signing up for 
cryonics.   (Just connecting the dots.)


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From jef at jefallbright.net  Fri Oct 19 16:32:18 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:32:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Evolution-like, wisdom of crowds systems
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710190932s5d50ee96u3ecb195a2faf4279@mail.gmail.com>

Recommended.

<http://karmatics.com/docs/evolution-and-wisdom-of-crowds.html>

Question for those who believe democracy is The Way:
Is the success of these social systems indicative of "democracy" or
something else, perhaps a deeper principle?

- Jef


Excerpt:

Below I cover three separate systems, each of which has strong
similarity to Darwinian evolution, each of which seems to elicit a
"but it just can't work" response, and none of which conflict with any
religion I know of. They are:

   1. Wikipedia -- online encyclopedia that anyone can edit
   2. Prediction markets -- speculative market which predicts future
events, such as the outcome of elections
   3. Recommendation systems -- systems which categorize and recommend
content (such as movies, music and books) based purely on ratings
given by others


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 19 22:15:27 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:15:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics:  Paris Hilton Signed Up
In-Reply-To: <BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <200710192242.l9JMg9Q6013015@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics: Paris Hilton Signed Up
> 
> Maybe the overly-testosteroned guys who have made her a "star," will now
> sign up for cryonics in the hope of sharing a dewar with Paris!
> 
> --------------------------
> James Clement, J.D., LL.M.




Hey, it worked on me.

{8^D

spike



From hkhenson at rogers.com  Fri Oct 19 23:25:54 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:25:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Orange Catholic Bible
In-Reply-To: <200710191531.l9JFV95O018032@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
References: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
	<BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
	<470a3c520710190042p16591cewfb5c576ccaec4ad1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710191531.l9JFV95O018032@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1192836297_118051@S4.cableone.net>

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From jef at jefallbright.net  Sat Oct 20 00:14:09 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:14:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Orange Catholic Bible
In-Reply-To: <1192836297_118051@S4.cableone.net>
References: <380-2200710418222237423@M2W024.mail2web.com>
	<BAY124-DAV1662B34932436F7BC1FCDBA39E0@phx.gbl>
	<470a3c520710190042p16591cewfb5c576ccaec4ad1@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710191531.l9JFV95O018032@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
	<1192836297_118051@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710191714i15ef84a4q608e0f8ceefe63d8@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/07, hkhenson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:

>  "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind."
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible
>
>  Always being one to look for loopholes, can you make one in the likeness of
> a woman's mind?

Or can one make a machine that makes a machine in the likeness of a man's mind?

Or, as I was trying to explain to Thomas Weber, next door, we're all
machines at some level anyway, so it is forbidden to procreate?

Or...

- Jef


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 20 04:49:44 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:49:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] kasparov on colbert
In-Reply-To: <a6a17bd40710171435i1b6c1fbeue0168e1e9f40e97e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710200516.l9K5GRt9009864@andromeda.ziaspace.com>




Hey check this out and watch the video:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4191

I have been a Kasparov watcher for over 25 years now.  I know of his
brilliance over the board, but in this interview I am just now recognizing
his tremendous potential as a Russian president.  Assuming he survives.

I am amused at how Kasparov Colberts Colbert.  So many of the subtle gags go
right over Colbert's head and apparently over the heads of the audience.
There is one double entendre I should explain: Kasparov's reference to
shredder.  Shredder is a champion chess program, so it has the double
meaning that any vote against Putin is shredded.

I will buy and read Kasparov's book, but I will not move to Russia just to
vote for him.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 20 05:18:15 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:18:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] grim reaper suffers from underemployment
In-Reply-To: <380-220071041822328787@M2W020.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <200710200546.l9K5kHSX024310@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


I have seen bizarre stuff in the news, but this pegs the needle.  A story
written from the point of view of hungry undertakers in Iraq:

"A drop in violence around Iraq has cut burials in the huge Wadi al Salam
cemetery here by at least one-third in the past six months, and that's cut
the pay of thousands of workers who make their living digging graves,
washing corpses or selling burial shrouds."

And this macabre gem:

"Certainly, when the number of dead increases I feel happy, like all workers
in the graveyard," said Basim Hameed, 30, a body washer. "This happiness
comes from the increase in the amount of money we have."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20071016/wl_mcclatchy/20071016bcusiraqceme
tery_attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop

As far as I can tell, this isn't satire.  I keep waiting for the punch line,
but there isn't any.

spike






From amara at amara.com  Sun Oct 21 08:39:16 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:39:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 'making' the Internet more democratic..
Message-ID: <p06230904c340bf759a47@[23.237.66.14]>

a social commentary in comic form about nerdy girls and the guys who like them
:-)
http://www.xkcd.com/322/

Amara


From pgptag at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 09:15:30 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:15:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Saturday 20 - transhumanist meetings in Second Life
Message-ID: <470a3c520710210215i53a39ba1u2006582ecf345130@mail.gmail.com>

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/saturday_20_transhumanist_meetings_in_second_life/


From amara at amara.com  Sun Oct 21 11:35:53 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:35:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Useful Buzzwords
Message-ID: <p06230900c340e9a77e0d@[23.237.66.14]>


Family Balancing
http://www.wordspy.com/words/familybalancing.asp

Molecular Farming
http://www.wordspy.com/words/molecularfarming.asp

Biopharming
http://www.wordspy.com/words/biopharming.asp

Pribiotics / Good for you bacteria
http://www.wordspy.com/words/good-for-youbacteria.asp

Plantibody
http://www.wordspy.com/words/plantibody.asp


I really like this one:  Upcycling
http://www.wordspy.com/words/upcycling.asp


Many more here:
http://www.wordspy.com/index/subjects.asp


Amara


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 21 15:20:29 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:20:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 'making' the Internet more democratic..
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c340bf759a47@[23.237.66.14]>
Message-ID: <200710211520.l9LFKUjd001189@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> 
> a social commentary in comic form about nerdy girls and the guys who like
> them
> :-)
> http://www.xkcd.com/322/
> 
> Amara


Amara, it would be instructive to hear from a feminine perspective a
speculation regarding why it is that we geek guys find nerd girls so
outrageously attractive and irresistible.  In their presence we become
helpless quivering blobs of protoplasm, hanging on their every
technologically oriented word.  Drooling, bowing, scraping creatures are we
when confronted with such technogoddesses, utterly regardless of the quality
or quantity of their other, more traditional feminine charms.  We devolve
violently, past the mammalian, to single celled wriggly slimy disgusting goo
in the dirt.

It's true, tragically so.  Why is that?

{8-]

spike






From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 21 16:31:17 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:31:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 'making' the Internet more democratic..
In-Reply-To: <200710211520.l9LFKUjd001189@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230904c340bf759a47@23.237.66.14>
	<200710211520.l9LFKUjd001189@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710210931x5196c290sd12dafff9b815b2c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/21/07, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> It's true, tragically so.  Why is that?

I'm going to venture a guess at better memes?


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Oct 21 17:01:33 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:01:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] grrl geeks and boyz who drool
In-Reply-To: <200710211520.l9LFKUjd001189@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230904c340bf759a47@[23.237.66.14]>
	<200710211520.l9LFKUjd001189@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071021115956.02225ed8@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 AM 10/21/2007 -0700, spike wrote:

>It's true, tragically so.  Why is that?

The unkind answer: projective narcissism.

Damien Broderick




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Oct 21 17:15:14 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:15:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] grrl geeks and boyz who drool
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071021121335.02201a90@satx.rr.com>

At 08:20 AM 10/21/2007 -0700, spike wrote:

>It's true, tragically so.  Why is that?

The blander answer: assortative mate-choice in a massively restricted market.

Damien Broderick




From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 21 18:46:51 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:46:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] kasparov on maher
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c340e9a77e0d@[23.237.66.14]>
Message-ID: <200710211913.l9LJDVLR028914@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


Friends, forgive me for getting political once again, but this blows my
mind.  Chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov followed up his appearance on
Colbert with an appearance on Bill Maher.  Once again he demonstrated a
level of understanding of politics so far beyond his contemporaries,
possibly on the level of his understanding of chess.  This young man has a
tremendous future in Russian and world politics:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4194

spike






From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Oct 21 22:11:45 2007
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:11:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times - Transhumanism
Message-ID: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/style/tmagazine/21droid.html?ref=tmagazine

Today's New York Times is running the article on Bionic Woman 2.0 and me.


<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha<http://www.natasha.cc/> Vita-More
PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of 
Computing, Communications and Electronics,
University of Plymouth, UK
<http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture
<http://extropy.org/>Thinking About the <http://extropy.org/>Future

If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the 
circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what 
is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is 
an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Mon Oct 22 05:02:08 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:02:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Warren Ellis
In-Reply-To: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
References: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1193029271_24567@S1.cableone.net>

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From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 23 07:08:20 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:08:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <22CBDC38-B17C-4014-948C-2D0AA97E0A7B@mac.com>

Samantha,

Although I'm sure you probably know about all this, I'll forward you  
a couple of things I found yesterday. I only feel sorry (and somewhat  
disgusted) for (by) those too biased to even look at evidence and  
resort to insult.

I raised the issue in the WTA discussion list some time back (I'll  
forward you some emails) only to be quieted by a few people, and I  
decided not to push it, since the point of my original post was  
"freedom of thought" and not conspiracy per se.

Who cares what a hundred transhumanists think about the issue, anyway  
(although, probably a good number of people watching these lists stay  
quiet but doubt when they read this stuff).

http://www.snowshoefilms.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuoQZkBFj9A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggxPK5WC0RA

Cheers,

--
Sergio


On Oct 10, 2007, at 8:25 PM, Samantha Atkins wrote:

>
> On Oct 6, 2007, at 2:25 PM, David Masten wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 10:50 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>>> Yes.  Here is a small sampling of some of the official story things
>>> requiring much better explanation.
>>
>> Actually they don't require better explanation, but better
>> understanding
>> of thermal dynamics and structural design is required of the  
>> Truthers.
>
> Sorry. Please show me where you get the requisite heat to soften steel
> sufficiently and why molten metal has been reported at the site
> afterwards by many observers.  Also please show me how softened steel
> and a purported pancaking of floors can result in nearly free fall
> collapse time.
>
>>
>>
>>> 1) No steel framed buildings in history before this have ever fallen
>>> due to heat softening the infrastructure;
>>
>> And how many modern high-rise structures have been struck by modern
>> wide
>> body airliners? Or putting it another way - how many buildings with
>> modern elevator shafts and modern HVAC systems have had thousands of
>> gallons of kerosene burning inside them?
>>
>
> Irrelevant as many have burned at much higher temperatures for a
> substantially longer time without collapse.
>
>>> 2) The buildings fell is free fall time which is inconsistent with
>>> pancake collapse theories;
>>
>> What is "free fall" time? Please show accelerations and terminal
>> velocity, please. Also please show the assumptions for determining
>> coefficient of drag of debris.
>>
>
> Both buildings fell in approximately 10s.  Do the math yourself.
>
>> Despite that, typical demolitions practice for tall buildings is to
>> cut
>> the structure at key points and allow the upper stories to bring down
>> the stories below it, i.e. the collapse should be nearly identical
>> whether it was a demolition job or weakening from a kerosene fire.
>>
>
> The cutting is the critical aspect that should have been absent in WTC
> by the official story.  Without it you would not see the same  
> behavior.
>
>>> 3) 6 of the claimed terrorists are very much alive and were not
>>> anywhere near these events;
>>
>> What does this have to do with the building collapse? My  
>> understanding
>> was that the six were found to not be involved, but were "persons of
>> interest" for other reasons.
>>
>
> It has to do with the official story being full of holes of course.
>
>>> 4) normal hijacking handling policy on the militaries part was
>>> totally
>>> suspended on that day which requires complicity from the top;
>>
>> When did the aircraft involved start squawking the hijack signal on
>> the
>> transponders? I'll give you the answer - they didn't. No one realized
>> that there were 4 hijackings until it was too late for the first
>> three.
>> Then there is the problem of what exactly is the military's hijack
>> procedure? The standard law enforcement procedure prior to 9/11  
>> was to
>> do nothing to upset the hijackers, which would imply little for the
>> military to do.
>>
>
> The FAA observes all transponder signals and squawks within minutes.
> The policy for decades has been to scramble fighters as soon as there
> is a report.  Go back and look at the footage on the tube that day.
> We knew as many as four planes were hijacked much earlier than you are
> claiming.  You are making this stuff up.
>
>
>>> 5) The Pentagon is designed to withstand most non-nuclear attacks
>>> including heavy anti-aircraft batteries that will fire on any non
>>> military-id craft aggressively approaching it.   Yet well after we
>>> knew we were under attack it was allowed to be hit by a hijacked
>>> craft.  This also required a stand down order;
>>
>> This is a truly extraordinary claim. Buildings "designed to withstand
>> attacks" are not invincible, but rather allow the occupants a
>> defensible
>> position with reduced (not zero) casualties from an attack. The  
>> damage
>> seen from the airliner is perfectly consistent with this. Also, what
>> AAA
>> unit(s) was assigned to the Pentagon? IIRC, there have not been AAA
>> batteries at the pentagon for decades. The only defense at the
>> Pentagon
>> was a security scheme to prevent unauthorized personnel from  
>> wandering
>> around inside.
>>
>
> The central point is that the plane would not have normally been
> allowed anywhere near the Pentagon and certainly not when we knew an
> attack was in progress.   Again you are mistaken about the facts.
>
>> Incompetence and surprise explains 4 and 5 far better than malice.
>>
>
> Incompetence on this scale would have brought down major repercussions
> especially on those charged with defending this nation.
>
>>> 6)  Building 7 was on the air admitted to being "pulled" which means
>>> it must have been rigged with explosives well beforehand.
>>
>> Cite? I suspect being "pulled" referred to ordering firefighters out
>> of
>> the building.
>>
>
> Look it up yourself.
>
>>> A question:
>>>
>>> If you knew beyond reasonable doubt that your government set-up 911
>>> to
>>> stampede the country in the direction they wanted, what would you do
>>> differently?   How would you look at current events and and the "war
>>> or terror"?
>>
>> Mu.
>>
>
> Clever.  NOT.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 23 07:15:34 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:15:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps
In-Reply-To: <22CBDC38-B17C-4014-948C-2D0AA97E0A7B@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<65223E6E-1066-4A79-9C41-8B3D1FA91C13@mac.com>
	<7d79ed890710012245w499cf4e1m774b4cc6364cb21b@mail.gmail.com>
	<43436E2A-C275-4D11-B7E7-4287D33B60B8@mac.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<22CBDC38-B17C-4014-948C-2D0AA97E0A7B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <EA6D3241-6C6C-4609-82E8-06F448438E5B@mac.com>

I simply want to apologize to this list for having accidentally sent  
this, when it was in fact intended for Samantha alone.

I do not want to raise the issue again here, since this is not the  
proper forum.

--
Sergio


On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Sergio M.L. Tarrero wrote:

> Samantha,
>
(...)


From jef at jefallbright.net  Mon Oct 22 18:31:03 2007
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:31:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Everything is Miscellaneous
Message-ID: <f7bfe5740710221131x7ccf1a28l134ed0774d9b268b@mail.gmail.com>

Recommended, especially for those who sometimes feel irritated by my
scare-quoting of "truth" and "reality" while I promote truth and
reality.

I think Ted Nelson said it well, that "everything is intertwingled."

- Jef


<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4CV05HyAbMI>

<http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/22/information-revoluti.html>

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805080430/>

"David Weinberger's "Everything is Miscellaneous" is the kind of book
that binds together innumerable miscellaneous threads and makes
something new, coherent, and incontrovertible out of them.
Weinberger's thesis is this: historically, we've divided the world
into categories, topics, and hierarchies because physical objects need
to be in one place or another, they can't be in all the places they
might belong. Computers and the Internet turn this on its head:
because a computer can "put things" in as many categories as they need
to be in, because individuals can classify knowledge, tasks, and
objects idiosyncratically, the hierarchy is revealed for what it
always was, a convenient expedient masquerading as the True Shape of
the Universe."


From max at maxmore.com  Mon Oct 22 14:03:32 2007
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:03:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Warren Ellis
In-Reply-To: <1193029271_24567@S1.cableone.net>
References: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
	<1193029271_24567@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710221403.l9ME3oQK016332@ms-smtp-07.texas.rr.com>

I have almost everything that Ellis has written and highly recommend 
his work. A great place for transhumanists to start is his Planetary 
series, though Transmetropolitan is a lot of fun and features 
cryonics and uploading in the first few issues.

Max


At 12:02 AM 10/22/2007, you wrote:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Ellis
>
>"Warren Ellis (born 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_16>February 16, 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968>1968) is a 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom>British author of 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic>comics, 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel>novels, and 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television>television, well known for 
>his sarcastic personality and sociocultural commentaries, both 
>through his online presence and his writing, as well as his use of 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism>extropian and 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism>transhumanist themes 
>(most notably 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology>nanotechnology, 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics>cryonics, 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_transfer>uploading, and 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_enhancement>human enhancement)."
>
>Heh.
>
>Keith Henson
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From sentience at pobox.com  Tue Oct 23 20:13:26 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:13:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Yudkowsky's reply (was: Minsky's Transcript)
In-Reply-To: <BAC5209D-C526-4E2D-A2E5-CB30280FFB46@telus.net>
References: <p06230902c340a91c5d63@23.237.66.14>
	<D274ECB8-3B7A-4B6D-953D-B070CCA7D9E0@telus.net>
	<f7bfe5740710210943r5faca024y9fb1c92c74ff1c0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAC5209D-C526-4E2D-A2E5-CB30280FFB46@telus.net>
Message-ID: <471E55E6.7010608@pobox.com>

http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/10/21/should-ethicists-be-inside-or-outside-a-profession/

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From andres at thoughtware.tv  Wed Oct 24 06:41:11 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 02:41:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thoughtware.TV: Would you be strong enough to feel forever?
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710232341x8b180e9x9dc162a7388c02d7@mail.gmail.com>

Would you want to live forever? If you lost someone dear to you, would you
be strong enough to take them with you, so their thoughts and memories could
join you in eternity?

Perhaps this song ponders a mind who loves another so greatly, and yet, when
faced with the possibility or reality of the other being lost, struggles to
not let go of the wish to live forever, holding on to the memory, keeping
the other alive within.

Would both have to eat the poisoned apple? (Would both have to meet the same
end?)

"Would it be maniacle and awful?", asks the transhuman: "Can I stay alive
forever?..."

Link to the video:  http://www.thoughtware.tv/videos/show/903

[Note: I know its ff-x but feel free to use your imagination and consider
this a transhuman emotional inquiry, listen to the song. To me...this could
very well be the story of an upload.]

Andres,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.thoughtware.tv>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 24 15:00:12 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:00:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/18/07, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
> upcoming elections:
>
> http://www.senatoronline.org.au/

Saw this today:
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-make-scary-political-ad.html


From rpwl at lightlink.com  Wed Oct 24 18:12:44 2007
From: rpwl at lightlink.com (Richard Loosemore)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:12:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Question ... Singularity book ...
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471F8B1C.10004@lightlink.com>


[With apologies for cross-posting]

A question for you all....

Over the last several years I have assembled a lot of material on topics 
like:

  - The "Bright Green Tomorrow" idea that I mentioned yesterday, about 
what the world might be like after the singularity

  - The Friendliness issue (how it might be possible to ensure that safe 
and friendly AGIs are built, etc)

  - The possible timeline of events between now and a singularity ... 
how long it might take, what could be done to manage the AGI projects, 
or set up a public, open-source AGI project, etc.

  - The technical problems involved in building AGIs ... the limits of 
conventional AI, the merging of AI with cognitive science, etc.


So my question is, if this were written up as a book (or more likely a 
series of books), how many people would be interested in buying such a 
book(s)?

Email me *privately*, if you would:  I don't want to clog this list with 
replies.

I know there are many people who read these lists but do not post, so I 
am curious to gauge the level of interest in this wider population.

Many thanks.


Richard Loosemore





From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 01:00:42 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:30:42 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Internet based political party in Australia
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710241800j6acb5a06u288ace9c9d7a5494@mail.gmail.com>

ha ha ha ha!

I wont be voting for the Liberals, for sure :-)

Emlyn

On 25/10/2007, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am very seriously considering voting for these people in our
> > upcoming elections:
> >
> > http://www.senatoronline.org.au/
>
> Saw this today:
> http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-make-scary-political-ad.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From hkhenson at rogers.com  Thu Oct 25 03:22:48 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:22:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Brain in a dish
In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0710241800j6acb5a06u288ace9c9d7a5494@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710240800u61cdc411g2a210dbb1deeb0b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0710241800j6acb5a06u288ace9c9d7a5494@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6573.html



From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 03:50:11 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:50:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Brain in a dish
In-Reply-To: <1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0710241800j6acb5a06u288ace9c9d7a5494@mail.gmail.com>
	<1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710242250.11458.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 24 October 2007 22:22, hkhenson wrote:
> Brain in a dish
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6573.html

Try also head-head transplants:
http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks//Biology/Medical%20science/Surgery/Head%20transplant%20operations/index.html#3.16.8.1

Forget the dish- when will we get our "brain in a jar"? Might turn out 
to be a collector's item.

- Bryan


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Oct 25 08:10:19 2007
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 01:10:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New York Times - Transhumanism
References: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <029d01c816de$8a291c80$0300a8c0@Nano>

That was a beautiful, uplifting, positive, simply hopeful vision of an interview Natasha. I absolutely love it, I was reading along saying to myself, "that's right!", "that's the way to do it" and finally, "hear hear!" Your "bionic" version, is certainly my preference! Thank you for representing us all, you are always the most impressive icon of woman, future, knowledge and inspiration. Onward, 


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Animation Blog: http://maxanimation.blogspot.com/
Craft blog: http://nanogirlblog.blogspot.com/
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Natasha Vita-More 
  To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
  Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:11 PM
  Subject: [ExI] New York Times - Transhumanism


  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/style/tmagazine/21droid.html?ref=tmagazine 

  Today's New York Times is running the article on Bionic Woman 2.0 and me.  



    Natasha Vita-More 
    PhD Candidate, CAiiA situated in the Faculty of Technology, School of Computing, Communications and Electronics, 
    University of Plymouth, UK 
    Transhumanist Arts & Culture 
    Thinking About the Future 


    If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Oct 25 10:47:58 2007
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] New York Times - Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <029d01c816de$8a291c80$0300a8c0@Nano>
References: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
	<029d01c816de$8a291c80$0300a8c0@Nano>
Message-ID: <34549.72.236.102.70.1193309278.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

I enjoyed that a lot, Natasha!  What a well expressed positive view and what a
public place to display it! :)

It saddens me that we've limited somehow the scope of the word "brave".  The quote
from Shakespeare at the end of the article has, for me, sunshine, trumpets, and
colorful flags flying. It's not all overcoming adversity. There's a lot of joy and
splendor in that word, but currently we limit the word to courage.

Shall we move into that world with strength and delight?

Regards,
MB



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 13:04:20 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:04:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Brain in a dish
In-Reply-To: <200710242250.11458.kanzure@gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<710b78fc0710241800j6acb5a06u288ace9c9d7a5494@mail.gmail.com>
	<1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>
	<200710242250.11458.kanzure@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710250604j22719bfagc60ae5a6d9cfbe2c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/24/07, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 October 2007 22:22, hkhenson wrote:
> > Brain in a dish
> > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6573.html
>
> Try also head-head transplants:
> http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks//Biology/Medical%20science/Surgery/Head%20transplant%20operations/index.html#3.16.8.1
>
> Forget the dish- when will we get our "brain in a jar"? Might turn out
> to be a collector's item.

I guess you won't change your mind as often as you change your body?


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Thu Oct 25 14:09:17 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:09:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Upcoming party and future dates
Message-ID: <200710251410.l9PEA8j92490@unreasonable.com>

My next party will be on Saturday, November 10, starting at 2 pm. 
Please RSVP if you intend to attend, aren't sure yet, or have come in 
the past but can't this time. (You're also welcome to just show up if 
your plans change.)

Whether you can attend this one or not, if you live in or near New 
England or expect to be here at some point next year, please let me 
know which of the 2008 alternate dates work better for you. The 
actual quarterly dates are chosen to best accommodate folks, 
particularly someone who's rarely in the Boston vicinity.

Winter		Jan 26 or Feb 2
Spring		Apr 12 or May 3
Summer	Jul 26 or Aug 2
Fall		Oct 18 or Oct 25

Parties are at my house in southern New Hampshire, on a Saturday, 
from around 2 pm on. A couple miles from the MA border and the Nashua 
malls. Roughly 20 minutes north of Rt. 128.

Some people have other commitments and arrive late. We've 
traditionally gotten a massive Chinese take-out order and split the 
bill; last time we went out to the excellent Korean sushi restaurant 
down the road. Most people leave around 9 or 10; there tend to be a 
few staying to 1 am or so.

Attendees are all smart, with a broad range of interests and an open 
mind. Extropians, libertarians, sf writers, denizens of uber-IQ 
groups, Alcor, MIT types, etc.

There's usually a ride available for someone car-less, and we've had 
groups drive up from places like NYC. If you're looking thinking 
about coming from aways and want a ride, or have wheels but want 
scintillating company and gas money, let me know.

Bring to augment existing: food, drink; musical instruments; 
interesting stuff to show people. I will have a few boxes of 
duplicate books or journals from my 13-ton library to give away; feel 
free to bring similar items.

The summer party is outdoors, extending the invitation to kids and 
dogs. (But cerebral kids who'd want to participate in the regular 
gusher of conversation are welcome at any of the parties.)

Anyone on this list is specifically invited. If you have someone else 
in mind, run it by me. It will probably be okay. Also, if you can't 
come but have a friend near here who you think would fit right in, 
tell me about them.

And if you're going to be around here non-adjacent to a party, give a 
holler. I can probably rustle up a coterie for dinner.


-- David.



From mail at harveynewstrom.com  Wed Oct 24 02:59:04 2007
From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:59:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Yudkowsky's reply (was: Minsky's Transcript)
In-Reply-To: <471E55E6.7010608@pobox.com>
References: <p06230902c340a91c5d63@23.237.66.14>
	<BAC5209D-C526-4E2D-A2E5-CB30280FFB46@telus.net>
	<471E55E6.7010608@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200710232259.04976.mail@harveynewstrom.com>

On Tuesday 23 October 2007 16:13, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
<http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/10/21/should-ethicists-be-inside-or-outside-a-profession/>

I agree with Marvin that every scientist does not need to be an expert 
ethicist.  They also don't need to be an expert politician, security 
engineer, safety engineer, assurance engineer, auditor, tester, deployment 
specialist, psychologist, sociologist, etc. Although all these professions 
have to be integrated on the team to prevent the technology from doing bad 
things.

I also agree with Eliezer that ethics cannot be separated from the process.  I 
don't think Eliezer's viewpoints invalidate Marvin's.  Instead of saying that 
the scientist must be an ethicist, I think Eliezer is saying that the 
ethicist must be a scientist in the same profession and working with the 
non-ethicist scientist.  

I would point out that all of Eliezer's excellent examples of failure are due 
to the ethics being removed from the design process and relegated to vague 
oversight, after-the-fact inspection, or external review.  But these failures 
are caused by the removal of ethics from the design, not the separation of 
ethics and science into separate brains.

As such, these two viewpoints are compatible.  A proper mix of non-ethicist 
scientists and scientist/ethicists could satisfy both viewpoints.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom
CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP


From kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 22 00:59:43 2007
From: kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com (Kevin H)
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:59:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
Message-ID: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the list as I've just recently discovered transhumanism and
extropism and it's all very interesting and I think it aligns very well with
my own evaluative standpoint: being both a natural optimist and a
technophile (though the latter requires qualifications that I don't want to
bore you with right now).

But I saw on the web page on the extropy.org site about an IRC server
however I haven't been able to log on.  Is the server still online?

Also, I was wondering if anyone knows of a paper or website somewhere on the
concept of extropy.  I know on Wikipedia it's said that extropy is no more
than a metaphor, but it seems to me that there has to be something more to
it.  I mean, how is it that life could emerge at all in a decaying universe
proceeding towards entropy?  It seems to me that everything that has been
accomplished so far on this planet, human life itself as an interesting
spectacle, must have required the "consumption" of a great deal of order
elsewhere.  So I'm thinking in the universe there must be some phenomena,
like a machine in nature, that does just--consumes a great deal of order in
the universe to produce certain peak regions of accelerated growth and
extropy.  I don't know, does anyone know more about this?

Thanks,

Kevin
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From rlpowell at digitalkingdom.org  Tue Oct 23 18:18:42 2007
From: rlpowell at digitalkingdom.org (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:18:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] admins: Various mail problems with this list.
Message-ID: <20071023181842.GR27527@digitalkingdom.org>


The introduction mail says to send mail to extropy-chat at extropy.org,
which fails.  Quoting:

    Mail to the list should be sent to: extropy-chat at extropy.org

It says the admin address is exi-list-admin at extropy.org, which also
fails.

There's another section, lower down, in the intro that says

    To post to this list, send your email to:

      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

but I'm only seeing that now.

Anyways, to try to tell someone about these problems, I sent mail to
postmaster at extropy.org, which failed.  I then tried to send mail to
the people listed in "whois extropy.org".  One of the bounced, and
I've recieved no reply to the other (although I see him posting to
this list, so I guess it just ended up in a spam folder or
something).

The only reason this mail is getting through is that I got mails
from the mailing list and copied the To: address.  Neither the
headers nor the footer in the mailing list mails I got include an
admin address.

-Robin

-- 
Lojban Reason #17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/


From rlpowell at digitalkingdom.org  Tue Oct 23 18:23:05 2007
From: rlpowell at digitalkingdom.org (Robin Lee Powell)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:23:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics options/advice?
Message-ID: <20071023182305.GS27527@digitalkingdom.org>

I'm going to get myself frozen and all, and I'm interested in
pointers on the various companies.  My default is ACS, because I'm
in San Francisco and they are nearby, so any horror stories about
them might be particularily helpful.  The best thing I've found so
far myself is http://www.cryonics.org/comparisons.html

I'm aware that neither ACS nor Alcor has storage facilities or
preservation teams in my area.  Both ACS and Alcor claim to have
first response teams in my area, however.  So far it's kind of
looking like a toss up.

None of the other players look particularily interesting to me so
far; feel free to try to change my mind on that.

-Robin

-- 
Lojban Reason #17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Oct 17 08:01:07 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:01:07 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Progressives
In-Reply-To: <1025FED3-32BF-4E65-AB54-E63B1141AAC3@mac.com>
References: <710b78fc0709262234x7adfb2e2ka70fbdbab29440de@mail.gmail.com>
	<580930c20710031254q77f4e6f5vd8d4b9d1e26eb5ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDD82B81-21BF-4CBD-9473-3E2DC305C6BB@mac.com>
	<1191705948.16540.54.camel@xa-1.prd.terraluna.org>
	<A7948C3C-58CF-47A7-AFCA-01CD5D03E7E0@mac.com>
	<B9890AE3-0018-474D-9029-CD7935896662@ceruleansystems.com>
	<a6a17bd40710101411k79f8d0aeh3ffaeda0d9521102@mail.gmail.com>
	<470E8A51.20305@lightlink.com>
	<008901c80c6f$8b9107a0$6501a8c0@homeef7b612677>
	<1025FED3-32BF-4E65-AB54-E63B1141AAC3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710170101gbabf1a0o7d0a08c8a90da634@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/07, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> Personally I don't use such simplistic labels for myself or anyone
> else as "progressive".  I thought we all claimed "upwinger" or some
> such anyway.



I do not like much the label myself. In Europe has strong, unilateral
political connotation which presumes that history has a fixed,
determinist course known in advance to the progressive thinker in cause,
which can just be resisted or seconded. In fact, Christian fondamentalism
itself would be progressive in the sense that history would be the progress
of Providential plans in place. Secular versions of the concept do not
improve much on the idea, IMHO.

Stefano Vaj
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From rpicone at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 19:09:19 2007
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:09:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffcf8fff0710251209q7056595ekd085dad73bfd71f2@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/21/07, Kevin H <kevin.l.holmes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm new to the list as I've just recently discovered transhumanism and
> extropism and it's all very interesting and I think it aligns very well with
> my own evaluative standpoint: being both a natural optimist and a
> technophile (though the latter requires qualifications that I don't want to
> bore you with right now).
>
> But I saw on the web page on the extropy.org site about an IRC server
> however I haven't been able to log on.  Is the server still online?
>
> Also, I was wondering if anyone knows of a paper or website somewhere on the
> concept of extropy.  I know on Wikipedia it's said that extropy is no more
> than a metaphor, but it seems to me that there has to be something more to
> it.  I mean, how is it that life could emerge at all in a decaying universe
> proceeding towards entropy?  It seems to me that everything that has been
> accomplished so far on this planet, human life itself as an interesting
> spectacle, must have required the "consumption" of a great deal of order
> elsewhere.  So I'm thinking in the universe there must be some phenomena,
> like a machine in nature, that does just--consumes a great deal of order in
> the universe to produce certain peak regions of accelerated growth and
> extropy.  I don't know, does anyone know more about this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin
>

It has thus far requited a gigantic fusion reactor to constantly
supply the energy necessary to actively oppose entropy, but I don't
see any reason why order, which isn't really in abundance in this
universe, would have to be destroyed to create order.  I don't see why
either order or disorder should be conserved, and it is a relatively
easy to think of a case where one has completely overtaken the other
(i.e. the heat death of the universe).


From mail at harveynewstrom.com  Thu Oct 25 18:25:36 2007
From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:25:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times - Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <029d01c816de$8a291c80$0300a8c0@Nano>
References: <200710212212.l9LMC8Wk014460@ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com>
	<029d01c816de$8a291c80$0300a8c0@Nano>
Message-ID: <200710251425.37034.mail@harveynewstrom.com>

On Thursday 25 October 2007 04:10, Gina Miller wrote:
> ?
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/style/tmagazine/21droid.html?ref=tmagazine

Go, Natasha!
-- 
Harvey Newstrom
CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Oct 25 20:18:27 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:18:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Space Roach
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071025151703.02493218@satx.rr.com>

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304744,00.html

Russians Successfully Breed Cockroaches in Space
Wednesday, October 24, 2007

By Alex Rossi


     Russian scientists are popping the champagne corks after a cockroach
called Hope conceived in space.

They say it is the first time any creature has give birth after cavorting in
space.

Scientists in Vorenezh, central Russia, are now studying Hope's 33 babies to
find out how being conceived in zero gravity has affected their development.

Head Scientist Dmitry Atyakshin said "The first generation of cosmic
cockroaches consists of 33 babies.

"They are beautiful. Seeing how they eat, drink and move I can understand
that they are feeling very well."

Hope, the cockroach, conceived onboard the Foton-M satellite last month.

Although the tests have only just begun, researchers are already reporting
changes in the insects.

They say that despite their stamina, weightlessness has exerted a serious
influence on them, especially on their motor functions.



From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 22:26:17 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:26:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Brain in a dish
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710250604j22719bfagc60ae5a6d9cfbe2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <710b78fc0710172316t7b4ed6b2hc075187ab02cbdca@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710242250.11458.kanzure@gmail.com>
	<62c14240710250604j22719bfagc60ae5a6d9cfbe2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710251726.17802.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Thursday 25 October 2007 08:04, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> I guess you won't change your mind as often as you change your body?

It's interesting to point out that even today there's strong resistance 
to changing your mind, but maybe people will one day see that different 
minds/clothings have different functionalities for the situation.

- Bryan


From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Oct 25 22:29:12 2007
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:29:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710251729.12355.kanzure@gmail.com>

On Sunday 21 October 2007 19:59, Kevin H wrote:
> Also, I was wondering if anyone knows of a paper or website somewhere
> on the concept of extropy. ?I know on Wikipedia it's said that
> extropy is no more than a metaphor, but it seems to me that there has
> to be something more to it. ?I mean, how is it that life could emerge
> at all in a decaying universe proceeding towards entropy? ?It seems
> to me that everything that has been accomplished so far on this
> planet, human life itself as an interesting spectacle, must have
> required the "consumption" of a great deal of order elsewhere. ?So
> I'm thinking in the universe there must be some phenomena, like a
> machine in nature, that does just--consumes a great deal of order in
> the universe to produce certain peak regions of accelerated growth
> and extropy. ?I don't know, does anyone know more about this?

The IRC server is irc.lucifer.com at #extropy. As for the concept of 
extropy, and how life can emerge, I suggest reading up on Aristotle, 
Salthe, etc.

Salthe:
http://www.nbi.dk/~natphil/salthe/

Salthe holds that the emergence of life is possible because of (1) 
universal gravitational acceleration, and (2) increasing entropy, 
allowing for (what I once misread as) 'the entertainment (entrainment) 
of a diversity of forms'/functions/systems/processes, competing for an 
ecology of information or energy. 

Definitely a worthwhile line of discussion.

- Bryan


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 26 00:27:31 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:27:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropy IRC server?
In-Reply-To: <c49b1db60710211759v6ba41e7x75c91c4f0d4125db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710260054.l9Q0sFCq010051@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin H
...
? I mean, how is it that life could emerge at all in a decaying universe
proceeding towards entropy?...

Kevin



The sun-earth system can increase in entropy while the earth enjoys a local
decrease in entropy.  During this process the sun increases in entropy.  The
sun being large, increases entropy as it fuses hydrogen to helium.  No
physical laws are violated for local low entropy regions to form within such
a system.  Creationists like to claim otherwise, but I have yet to see them
prove it with calculations.

spike









From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 26 01:07:47 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:07:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Space Roach
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071025151703.02493218@satx.rr.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071025151703.02493218@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710251807p6d4a22bbrfa35af1bef4f4d09@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304744,00.html
>
> Russians Successfully Breed Cockroaches in Space

So that's how the cockroach will survive even nuclear Armageddon -
they've convinced humanity to build lifeboats for them in space.

Interesting development considering how many products on earth fail to
reliably remove them from the kitchen that we're now growing them in
space.  ;)


From mail at harveynewstrom.com  Fri Oct 26 01:34:06 2007
From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:34:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Space Roach
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710251807p6d4a22bbrfa35af1bef4f4d09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071025151703.02493218@satx.rr.com>
	<62c14240710251807p6d4a22bbrfa35af1bef4f4d09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710252134.06552.mail@harveynewstrom.com>

On Thursday 25 October 2007 21:07, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On 10/25/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304744,00.html
> >
> > Russians Successfully Breed Cockroaches in Space
>
> So that's how the cockroach will survive even nuclear Armageddon -
> they've convinced humanity to build lifeboats for them in space.
>
> Interesting development considering how many products on earth fail to
> reliably remove them from the kitchen that we're now growing them in
> space.  ;)

Combine this news with "Space Bugs Become More Dangerous"
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7011828.stm>
and we might have a problem....

-- 
Harvey Newstrom
CISSP CISA CISM CIFI NSA-IAM GSEC ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP


From kevin at kevinfreels.com  Fri Oct 26 23:21:21 2007
From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 18:21:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Scary information for Holloween
In-Reply-To: <200710252134.06552.mail@harveynewstrom.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071025151703.02493218@satx.rr.com>	<62c14240710251807p6d4a22bbrfa35af1bef4f4d09@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710252134.06552.mail@harveynewstrom.com>
Message-ID: <47227671.8080501@kevinfreels.com>


Here's some scary information for Halloween:

Nearly 1 out of 4 Americans claim to have seen a ghost.
Nearly 1 out of 5 believe that witchcraft works
Nearly 48% believe in ESP.

More here.......

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/10/26/ghost.poll.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview 



From amara at amara.com  Sat Oct 27 10:02:25 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:02:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
Message-ID: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@[23.237.66.13]>


===================
THE STORY OF A BOX
===================

Or How Amara met EU-USA Trade Agreements, USA's Department of Homeland
Security, and Italy's broken infrastructure, all in one morning.

by Amara Graps


On one fine, drizzly, Castelli Romani October morning, Amara began her
journey to mail her seven-kg box to Boulder, Colorado, USA. After
driving to the end of the A Metro line and parking her junkyard-jalopy,
she clutched her box through 21 metro stops, finally emerging, forty
minutes later, at the Ottaviano exit: the Vaticano.

Destination: the Vatican Post Office, where she feels sure that her box
can exit Italy safely.

She leaves the metro stop, and finds herself surrounded by a German
tourist group.

"Kann ich helfen?" (Can I help?)

"Nein, nein.. it's OK", Amara says, clinging tightly to her box.

After five minutes, she reaches a guard gate and with guards, who seem
peculiarly not Swiss, but Italian, instead.

"Il vostro motivo per il vaticano ?" (Reason for the Vatican?), one guard
asks, looking at her box.

"Vorrei andare all'ufficio del poste vaticano per mandare la mia scatola."
(I would like to go to the Vatican Post office to mail my box), she says,
clutching her box tighter.

He smiles and directs her to an office where she exchanges her Italian
identity card for a "Vatican Visitor" badge, which she pins to her
jacket.

Strutting through the gate and feeling victory at hand, she enters the
Vatican and locates the Post Office. She steps through the postal door.

There were no other customers at that moment, and she sets the box on
a table and walks briskly to the only open window. A gentle-looking,
bespeckled man at the other side of the window looks back at her.

"I'm sorry, we cannot mail that box here."

"Why not?"

"It is more than two kilograms. But Poste Italiane is just around the
corner...." he offers, timidly.  "They can mail it."

"But Poste Italiane is too risky!" She says.

"Also for us!"  The Vatican Post Office Employee answers, apologetically.
"I'm sorry..."

Amara gathers her box, dejectedly, and returns to the guard gate.

"Che cosa?" (What..?)

"La mia scatola e' piu due kilogramma.." (My box is more than 2 kg.)
She says, embarrassed.

Returning her Vatican Visitors badge and stuffing her Identity Card
in her pocket, Amara heads out of the Vatican.

The Poste Italiane office looms in front of her.

Thoughts of carrying this box through 21 Metro stops and the return
drive to Frascati impels Amara through The Poste Italiane front door.
She punches a button at the lime-green queue machine to get a ticket to
wait in line, for the one window that manages postal mail. She timidly
asks for a 'Raccomandata' (Registration) form for her box. The woman at
the other end of the window looks at the box.

"We cannot mail that box." (Non possiamo spedire quella scatola.)

"Why not?" (Perche' non?), Amara asks.

Her answer is something that Amara doesn't understand, until the postal
woman points to another box behind her, large and flat and wrapped in
brown paper, leaning against the far wall.

"Possi comprare carte alla cartoleria .." (you must buy wrapping paper a
the card shop...), she begins, now assisted by several customers who are
trying to help her explain to Amara, all of them speaking Italian at the
same time.

"Oh! I must wrap the box with paper...", Amara mutters to herself, and
gives the postal window woman her queue ticket and runs out the door.

Back to the A Metro stop, through 21 stops, to her car and then Frascati.

Parking her car in front of her flat, Amara collects her box from the
back seat and walks up the hill to the center of the town of Frascati.
To the "Gigi Travel" agency,  who are also a drop-off-point for the DHL
courier service.

She enters the travel agency, with her box that feels heavier by the
hour.

"Vorrei mandare questa scatola ai Stati Uniti...  Parli inglese..?" (I
would like to send this box to the US; do you speak English?)

(It seems that Amara is beginning to feel a headache.)

"Yes, we speak English. What is in the box?", a dark-haired girl asks,
and begins to measure the box's dimensions.

"Boots, sweaters, cooking pot, kitchen utensils, socks, scarfs, tea...
Personal items for living. I'm moving to Colorado and it's winter there,"
Amara answers.

She pulls out from her backpack, her itemized list, giving the contents.

The young woman calls a phone number, where she is promptly put on hold.

"This is not a standard DHL size box, so I have to get an estimate on
the price based on its dimensions.  " she explains.

After some minutes, listening, she says to Amara: "140 euros.., do you
accept that?"

"Are you serious? But I thought 25 kilograms was about 150 euros," Amara
says, pulling out another piece of paper of old DHL information from her
backpack.

"Weight doesn't matter as much, because the items are not in our
standard box."

"The items won't fit inside of your standard box," Amara says. "OK, I
have no other safe way. I accept."

Ten minutes later, someone at the other end of her phone begins to ask
the woman questions about the contents of the box. She takes Amara's
itemized list and reads each item in Italian.

"What are boots?", she asks Amara.

"Shoes. Scarpe."

"They want to know if they are made of leather," she says.

"Well, yes.. boots are often made of leather..."

"There are shipping rules for not sending animal products, and so they
don't know if they can send these boots...", she explains with one ear
glued to the telephone.

"Also products made of wood.. Is anything here made of wood?" She asks
Amara.

"There is a wooden spoon for cooking..."

"Oh.. I must ask..."  She returns to the telephone.. while idylly
munching on a granola bar.

Another ten minutes later, she hangs up the phone and seems reassured
that no forbidden (at least 'enough' forbidden) animal products or
products of wood are going to be sent to Boulder, Colorado.

"OK.. there are US-EU or US-Italy regulations for shipping, but I
explained that the items in the box are used, private items. But you
must also officially declare the box as "Personal Effects" for US and EU
Customs. Here is what you must write in your letter."

She proceeds to give Amara the main points that Amara must write in her
Declaration Letter to the EU and US Customs.

"And for the Homeland Security, they need a photocopy of your passport
and they need to know the details on your plane trip for your move to
the US"

"I don't have my plane ticket yet..", Amara says.

"Well if you tell me the approximate day..."

She jumps to the computer. This being a Travel Agency, she locates a
hypothetical flight, quickly.

"Here, you can use this flight information..." she offers.

"OK. I have a second box..." Amara begins.

The dark-haired woman looks distressed.

"It seems like a better use of time, if you give me two copies of all
of the forms, I fill in the forms myself, write the Declaration Letters,
with passport copies, for both boxes, and return tomorrow morning,"
Amara says.

"Va bene!" (OK!)

And that is the story of Amara's box(es).

My box and its sister box (discounted in price because they were
together) left the Frascati DHL pickup point, in the next morning,
safely bypassing the Poste Italiane, but beyond the help of the
Poste Vaticano, with documentation addressing the concerns of US-EU
trade agreements, and the US Department of Homeland Security.

The End.

P.S. In reality, there are ~200 boxes, but the rest will instead meet the
EU-US Trade regulations and the US DHL in shipyards, hopefully out of my
hands.




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 27 17:54:49 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:54:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
In-Reply-To: <1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710271754.l9RHso06022996@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



Europeans, it should be dark there by now.  Has anyone sighted comet Holmes?
It is at the base of Perseus, below and to the east of the Polaris.

spike







From nymphomation at gmail.com  Sat Oct 27 18:19:59 2007
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (Nymph0)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:19:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
In-Reply-To: <200710271754.l9RHso06022996@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <1193282513_31381@S1.cableone.net>
	<200710271754.l9RHso06022996@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7e1e56ce0710271119k5f38706dpba6b78c11e853caa@mail.gmail.com>

On 27/10/2007, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Europeans, it should be dark there by now.  Has anyone sighted comet Holmes?
> It is at the base of Perseus, below and to the east of the Polaris.

Hmm.. Is it shaped like a cloud?

=;o)

We can just about make out the moon here in London..

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

I'm coming now, I'm coming to reward them,
I'm guided by a signal in the heavens


From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 01:45:50 2007
From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Scary information for Holloween
In-Reply-To: <47227671.8080501@kevinfreels.com>
Message-ID: <667274.89671.qm@web35603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Have you checked out Damien Broderick's new book yet?  ESP should not be so easily dismissed.
   
  Happy Halloween everyone!  
   
  John Grigg  :  )
   
  From the Amazon website:
  From Publishers Weekly
Broderick, best known as a science-fiction writer, returns to nonfiction (after 2001's The Spike) to evaluate various research programs investigating "psi phenomena." Divided into two branches, psi phenomena cover anomalous cognition, which includes telepathy, remote viewing and other forms of "non-material" communication; and anomalous perturbation, psi-mediated action or psycho-kinetics. Broderick remains analytical and objective throughout, reviewing the work of such laboratory programs as the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research group, the Science Applications Incorporated Corporation and the CIA-backed Stargate; recounting their experiments' designs, methods and procedures, Broderick then goes on to examine rigorously the resulting data. He concludes that while the evidence for various kinds of psi phenomena is strong, there are unknown (and possibly unknowable) factors that make classical, reductionist methods of testing it unpredictable and irreproducible (the
 reason, he suspects, that the CIA gave up on such research in 1995). Gratifyingly, Broderick connects the search for psi phenomena to larger philosophical questions while remaining skeptical and delightfully rational throughout. 
Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. 
>>>>

  http://www.amazon.com/Outside-Gates-Science-Time-Paranormal/dp/1560259868/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5352033-0128609?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193535622&sr=8-1

Kevin Freels <kevin at kevinfreels.com> wrote:
  
Here's some scary information for Halloween:

Nearly 1 out of 4 Americans claim to have seen a ghost.
Nearly 1 out of 5 believe that witchcraft works
Nearly 48% believe in ESP.

More here.......

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/10/26/ghost.poll.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 28 05:44:11 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 22:44:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
In-Reply-To: <200710271754.l9RHso06022996@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200710280610.l9S6AqYX019399@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike
> Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
> 
> Europeans, it should be dark there by now.  Has anyone sighted comet
> Holmes?
> It is at the base of Perseus, below and to the east of the Polaris.
> 
> spike



It was cloudy here in Taxifornia this evening.  Any other Americans get a
view of it?

spike








From amara at amara.com  Sun Oct 28 07:01:20 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:01:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Solar Power from Space- An energy solution
Message-ID: <p06230906c349e16a177f@[23.237.66.13]>

I have a long comment here that some might find interesting, regarding
solar power from space. I have quotes from Bill Hartmann as he examines
the issue,

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/blogs/2007/10/deep-impact-sputnik.html#comment-373

words which, in some sense, supports a new alliance, that is working to
"ensure that the benefits of renewable clean energy from space solar power
are understood and supported by business, governments and the general
public." On October 10, there was an inaugural event of the new
alliance, held at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. which
highlighted a study underway by the National Security Space Office
(NSSO) on the viability of space-based solar power. This event received
alot of press, so it might be known to some of you already.

http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/library/nsso.htm

I haven't quite sorted out all of the governmental parts ("National Security"
are words used) from the business parts.. it's a peculiar alliance.

Amara




From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 28 01:38:17 2007
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:38:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@[23.237.66.13]>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>

Amara,

You are FUN to read!  I kept expecting a sign over an office door saying 
"Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".    ;-)

  - David Harris, Palo Alto


Amara Graps wrote:
> ===================
> THE STORY OF A BOX
> ===================
>
> Or How Amara met EU-USA Trade Agreements, USA's Department of Homeland
> Security, and Italy's broken infrastructure, all in one morning.
>
> by Amara Graps
>
>
> On one fine, drizzly, Castelli Romani October morning, Amara began her
> journey to mail her seven-kg box to Boulder, Colorado, USA. After
> driving to the end of the A Metro line and parking her junkyard-jalopy,
> she clutched her box through 21 metro stops, finally emerging, forty
> minutes later, at the Ottaviano exit: the Vaticano.
>
> Destination: the Vatican Post Office, where she feels sure that her box
> can exit Italy safely.
>
> She leaves the metro stop, and finds herself surrounded by a German
> tourist group.
>
> "Kann ich helfen?" (Can I help?)
>
> "Nein, nein.. it's OK", Amara says, clinging tightly to her box.
>
> After five minutes, she reaches a guard gate and with guards, who seem
> peculiarly not Swiss, but Italian, instead.
>
> "Il vostro motivo per il vaticano ?" (Reason for the Vatican?), one guard
> asks, looking at her box.
>
> "Vorrei andare all'ufficio del poste vaticano per mandare la mia scatola."
> (I would like to go to the Vatican Post office to mail my box), she says,
> clutching her box tighter.
>
> He smiles and directs her to an office where she exchanges her Italian
> identity card for a "Vatican Visitor" badge, which she pins to her
> jacket.
>
> Strutting through the gate and feeling victory at hand, she enters the
> Vatican and locates the Post Office. She steps through the postal door.
>
> There were no other customers at that moment, and she sets the box on
> a table and walks briskly to the only open window. A gentle-looking,
> bespeckled man at the other side of the window looks back at her.
>
> "I'm sorry, we cannot mail that box here."
>
> "Why not?"
>
> "It is more than two kilograms. But Poste Italiane is just around the
> corner...." he offers, timidly.  "They can mail it."
>
> "But Poste Italiane is too risky!" She says.
>
> "Also for us!"  The Vatican Post Office Employee answers, apologetically.
> "I'm sorry..."
>
> Amara gathers her box, dejectedly, and returns to the guard gate.
>
> "Che cosa?" (What..?)
>
> "La mia scatola e' piu due kilogramma.." (My box is more than 2 kg.)
> She says, embarrassed.
>
> Returning her Vatican Visitors badge and stuffing her Identity Card
> in her pocket, Amara heads out of the Vatican.
>
> The Poste Italiane office looms in front of her.
>
> Thoughts of carrying this box through 21 Metro stops and the return
> drive to Frascati impels Amara through The Poste Italiane front door.
> She punches a button at the lime-green queue machine to get a ticket to
> wait in line, for the one window that manages postal mail. She timidly
> asks for a 'Raccomandata' (Registration) form for her box. The woman at
> the other end of the window looks at the box.
>
> "We cannot mail that box." (Non possiamo spedire quella scatola.)
>
> "Why not?" (Perche' non?), Amara asks.
>
> Her answer is something that Amara doesn't understand, until the postal
> woman points to another box behind her, large and flat and wrapped in
> brown paper, leaning against the far wall.
>
> "Possi comprare carte alla cartoleria .." (you must buy wrapping paper a
> the card shop...), she begins, now assisted by several customers who are
> trying to help her explain to Amara, all of them speaking Italian at the
> same time.
>
> "Oh! I must wrap the box with paper...", Amara mutters to herself, and
> gives the postal window woman her queue ticket and runs out the door.
>
> Back to the A Metro stop, through 21 stops, to her car and then Frascati.
>
> Parking her car in front of her flat, Amara collects her box from the
> back seat and walks up the hill to the center of the town of Frascati.
> To the "Gigi Travel" agency,  who are also a drop-off-point for the DHL
> courier service.
>
> She enters the travel agency, with her box that feels heavier by the
> hour.
>
> "Vorrei mandare questa scatola ai Stati Uniti...  Parli inglese..?" (I
> would like to send this box to the US; do you speak English?)
>
> (It seems that Amara is beginning to feel a headache.)
>
> "Yes, we speak English. What is in the box?", a dark-haired girl asks,
> and begins to measure the box's dimensions.
>
> "Boots, sweaters, cooking pot, kitchen utensils, socks, scarfs, tea...
> Personal items for living. I'm moving to Colorado and it's winter there,"
> Amara answers.
>
> She pulls out from her backpack, her itemized list, giving the contents.
>
> The young woman calls a phone number, where she is promptly put on hold.
>
> "This is not a standard DHL size box, so I have to get an estimate on
> the price based on its dimensions.  " she explains.
>
> After some minutes, listening, she says to Amara: "140 euros.., do you
> accept that?"
>
> "Are you serious? But I thought 25 kilograms was about 150 euros," Amara
> says, pulling out another piece of paper of old DHL information from her
> backpack.
>
> "Weight doesn't matter as much, because the items are not in our
> standard box."
>
> "The items won't fit inside of your standard box," Amara says. "OK, I
> have no other safe way. I accept."
>
> Ten minutes later, someone at the other end of her phone begins to ask
> the woman questions about the contents of the box. She takes Amara's
> itemized list and reads each item in Italian.
>
> "What are boots?", she asks Amara.
>
> "Shoes. Scarpe."
>
> "They want to know if they are made of leather," she says.
>
> "Well, yes.. boots are often made of leather..."
>
> "There are shipping rules for not sending animal products, and so they
> don't know if they can send these boots...", she explains with one ear
> glued to the telephone.
>
> "Also products made of wood.. Is anything here made of wood?" She asks
> Amara.
>
> "There is a wooden spoon for cooking..."
>
> "Oh.. I must ask..."  She returns to the telephone.. while idylly
> munching on a granola bar.
>
> Another ten minutes later, she hangs up the phone and seems reassured
> that no forbidden (at least 'enough' forbidden) animal products or
> products of wood are going to be sent to Boulder, Colorado.
>
> "OK.. there are US-EU or US-Italy regulations for shipping, but I
> explained that the items in the box are used, private items. But you
> must also officially declare the box as "Personal Effects" for US and EU
> Customs. Here is what you must write in your letter."
>
> She proceeds to give Amara the main points that Amara must write in her
> Declaration Letter to the EU and US Customs.
>
> "And for the Homeland Security, they need a photocopy of your passport
> and they need to know the details on your plane trip for your move to
> the US"
>
> "I don't have my plane ticket yet..", Amara says.
>
> "Well if you tell me the approximate day..."
>
> She jumps to the computer. This being a Travel Agency, she locates a
> hypothetical flight, quickly.
>
> "Here, you can use this flight information..." she offers.
>
> "OK. I have a second box..." Amara begins.
>
> The dark-haired woman looks distressed.
>
> "It seems like a better use of time, if you give me two copies of all
> of the forms, I fill in the forms myself, write the Declaration Letters,
> with passport copies, for both boxes, and return tomorrow morning,"
> Amara says.
>
> "Va bene!" (OK!)
>
> And that is the story of Amara's box(es).
>
> My box and its sister box (discounted in price because they were
> together) left the Frascati DHL pickup point, in the next morning,
> safely bypassing the Poste Italiane, but beyond the help of the
> Poste Vaticano, with documentation addressing the concerns of US-EU
> trade agreements, and the US Department of Homeland Security.
>
> The End.
>
> P.S. In reality, there are ~200 boxes, but the rest will instead meet the
> EU-US Trade regulations and the US DHL in shipyards, hopefully out of my
> hands.
>
>   



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 09:06:09 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:06:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/07, David C. Harris wrote:
> Amara,
> You are FUN to read!  I kept expecting a sign over an office door saying
> "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".    ;-)
>


<http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/abandon-hope-all-ye-who-enter-here.html>

Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Meaning:   The supposed inscription at the entrance to Hell.

Origin
>From Dante's Divine Comedy. The translation into English by H.F.Cary
is the origin for this English phrase, although he gave it as the less
commonly used 'All hope abandon ye who enter here'.

    Through me you pass into the city of woe:
    Through me you pass into eternal pain:
    Through me among the people lost for aye.

    Justice the founder of my fabric mov'd:
    To rear me was the task of power divine,
    Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.

    Before me things create were none, save things
    Eternal, and eternal I endure.
    All hope abandon ye who enter here.

-------------------


BillK


From amara at amara.com  Sun Oct 28 09:22:58 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:22:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
Message-ID: <p0623090ac34a046e4c59@[23.237.66.13]>

On 10/28/07, David C. Harris wrote:
>  Amara,
>  You are FUN to read!

I'm trying to keep _some_ (admittedly not easy) sense of humor about
it. The postal story would be true for many people not living in Italy,
and sending boxes out of EU to the USA. I avoided all of that during the
last years because I used (on purpose), brown padded envelopes that fly
under the radar of the Dept. of Homeland Security and everybody else. I
have boxes now though. Because of my strong wish to avoid Poste Italiane
(guess why), I have an added complication to mail boxes, so that's why I
want to use Poste Vaticano. Plus it appeals to my sense of play to have
boxes from the Vatican Post Office arrive at the front door of my new
scientific research institute.

Ciao,
Amara


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Sun Oct 28 13:00:05 2007
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:00:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atlas Shrugged?
Message-ID: <200710281300.l9SD0qj36174@unreasonable.com>

I'm drinking my morning coffee, watching a panel discussion on the
50th anniversary celebration of the publication of Atlas Shrugged.
One of the panelists mentioned that the book was finally being turned
into a movie, coming out next year.

So, mildly curious as to whether it was low-budget or big-studio and
particularly whether it was real, after decades of rumored Stranger
in a Strange Land movies, I checked IMDB:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/

The holy cow part is that the star of the movie is Angelina Jolie.
And seems to be legit:

http://www.baldwinent.com/news_article_jolie.html
http://www.baldwinent.com/prod_atlasshrugged.html

If that can happen, maybe I'll get the movies I want of other
unfilmed books I like better.

And if an objectivist movie starring Jolie can come out coincident
with Ron Paul getting the biggest presidential success of any
libertarian since Goldwater, maybe the US isn't swirling down the
drain after all.


-- David.



From benboc at lineone.net  Sun Oct 28 13:28:35 2007
From: benboc at lineone.net (ben)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:28:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Yudkowsky's reply (was: Minsky's Transcript)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.310.1193561376.630.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.310.1193561376.630.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <47248E83.50704@lineone.net>

Harvey Newstrom <mail at harveynewstrom.com> wrote:

> I agree with Marvin that
...
> Although all these professions have to be integrated on the team to 
> prevent the technology from doing bad things.


Isn't that a bit of a pessimistic (and anti-extropic) viewpoint?

I can't help notice that the way that people say things not only reveals
their attitudes, it also affects how other people form theirs.

The implication here is that technology does bad things. Yet, we're all
about technology doing good things. Amazingly good things.

So, how about ".. to help ensure that the technology does good things"?
Do you think that's an improvement?


Just my twopenn'orth.

ben zed


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 15:04:58 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:04:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710280804y6e185b36t3c77596d0d3556ca@mail.gmail.com>

Funny to read it translated... :-)

On 10/28/07, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Origin
> >From Dante's Divine Comedy. The translation into English by H.F.Cary
> is the origin for this English phrase, although he gave it as the less
> commonly used 'All hope abandon ye who enter here'.
>
>     Through me you pass into the city of woe:
>     Through me you pass into eternal pain:
>     Through me among the people lost for aye.
>
>     Justice the founder of my fabric mov'd:
>     To rear me was the task of power divine,
>     Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.
>
>     Before me things create were none, save things
>     Eternal, and eternal I endure.
>     All hope abandon ye who enter here.
>
> -------------------
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Oct 28 15:51:19 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:51:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>

At 09:06 AM 10/28/2007 +0000, BillK wrote:

> > "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".    ;-)
>
>Abandon hope all ye who enter here
>
>Meaning:   The supposed inscription at the entrance to Hell.

No, damn it!

"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."

Damien Broderick




From amara at amara.com  Sun Oct 28 16:22:48 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:22:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
Message-ID: <p06230900c34a63999aae@[23.237.66.13]>

Damien Broderick:
>>"Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".
>"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."

Right. But literally it is _every_ hope.

Even those itsy, bitsy, teeny hopes that might be hanging
off one's coat jacket, sticking to one's shoes, embedded
under one's fingernails. Dante knew Italy well. Give up.

While I gave up hope, some people still are not heeding Dante.
Beppe Grillo announced his next V-day (literally: "Fuck off Day"
to the Parliamentarians) to be  April 25, 2008.

http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2007/10/yesterdays_vday_and_tomorrows.html

And Italy's bloggers, sick of the present unfree media raised
such a rukus over this stupidity,

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/22/italy-proposes-a-min.html#comments

and how the mainstream media went after Grillo's September 8 V-Day,
that the proposed law is being re-examined (likely dropped) and
an intense focus is on journalism and media now, to try to
change it.

There is another well-known expression here, to keep in mind, though:

"Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi"
(everything must change so that nothing will truly change)

Ciao,
Amara


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 17:44:01 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:44:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> At 09:06 AM 10/28/2007 +0000, BillK wrote:
>
> > > "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".    ;-)
> >
> >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
> >
> >Meaning:   The supposed inscription at the entrance to Hell.
>
> No, damn it!
>
> "Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
>

Actually, it is "*any* hope".

Stefano Vaj
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From humania at t-online.de  Sun Oct 28 18:28:38 2007
From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:28:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
References: <p06230900c34a63999aae@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <002301c81990$a2a61ec0$14b2a8c0@mazarel>

Damien:

"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."

Amara:

"Right. But literally it is _every_ hope".

If you desire to enter hell on german territory, they expect you to leave 
behind all your hope in a vehicle of your choice.
The translator literally says: "Let all hope drive away".





From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 19:06:09 2007
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:06:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62c14240710281206s3608c9dbk694c192995191a15@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/07, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/28/07, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > At 09:06 AM 10/28/2007 +0000, BillK wrote:
> >
> > > > "Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".    ;-)
> > >
> > >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
> > >
> > >Meaning:   The supposed inscription at the entrance to Hell.
> >
> > No, damn it!
> >
> > "Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
> >
>
> Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>

*most* ?

*a significant majority of* ?


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Oct 28 19:59:46 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:59:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028145339.022872d8@satx.rr.com>


> >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
>
>No, damn it!
>
>"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
>
>Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>
>Stefano Vaj

That's not really the point, which is that in popular 
English-language [mis]usage (taking a rather restricted value of 
"popular"), the error is to universalize the "ye who enter" rather 
than the "hope"--which weakens the absolute terror of the 
inscription. "All" and "any" are effectively synonymous in this context.

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 28 20:22:47 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:22:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <002301c81990$a2a61ec0$14b2a8c0@mazarel>
Message-ID: <200710282022.l9SKMlVX021203@andromeda.ziaspace.com>



> Damien:
> 
> "Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
> 
> Amara:
> 
> "Right. But literally it is _every_ hope".



What would happen if Tigger were to perish and go to hell?  Woohoo woo hoo
that's hot, woohoo woohoo, damn!

What if gloomy old Eeyore went to hell?  Would he even notice?  Would he
have anything to abandon?  Would he cheer up if he went to heaven?  If
Eeyore became a suicide bomber, how many virgins would it take to cause him
to utter a single woohoo?




Children's literature damages the brain.


spike





From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 28 20:40:00 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:40:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028145339.022872d8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200710282106.l9SL6eap020324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
> 
> 
> > >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
> >
> >No, damn it!
> >
> >"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
> >
> >Actually, it is "*any* hope".
> >
> >Stefano Vaj
> 
> That's not really the point, which is that in popular
> English-language [mis]usage ...which weakens the absolute terror ...
> Damien Broderick


Ja, there was meaning lost in translation.  Dante was urging hell-goers to
abandon irrational exuberance.  The hell-bound newbies should concentrate
their assets in precious metals, hedge funds and the more bearishly oriented
derivatives.

spike







From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 28 21:19:26 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:19:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710282106.l9SL6eap020324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <200710282146.l9SLk6N9001745@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> > > >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
> > >
> > >No, damn it!
> > >
> > >"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
> > >
> > >Actually, it is "*any* hope".
> > >
> > >Stefano Vaj
> 
> 
> Ja, there was meaning lost in translation.  Dante was urging hell-goers to
> abandon irrational exuberance.  ... spike


This comment came from an experience a couple weeks ago on a plane heading
east.  I was reading Greenspan's Age of Turbulence, which isn't a comedy,
but I got to hee hawing over one passage, the other passengers found out I
am a maniac.  The passage is on page 176, where he was talking about an
address he made to the American Enterprise Institute on 5 December 1996.  If
you recall the headlines of 6 December, Greenspan was quoted as having
uttered the market slaying two words "irrational exuberance."  I took a
whooping that day, and didn't appreciate it at all.

In the book, he gives a complete transcript of that speech and what was
going on at that gathering.  The dinner was delayed so they were bringing
out cocktails beforehand.  It was a very dense, wonky, economics
professorish speech.  Afterwards he seriously wondered what, if anything,
the guests had taken from his talk.  From that transcript on pages 176 and
177 of Turbulence, it is clear he absolutely was not in any way suggesting
that the stock market was overvalued.  The press people in attendance
latched onto those two words in a speech that was all over the intellectual
map, wrote headlines with "irrational exuberance" and took scandalous,
figuratively violent, liberties with the content of Greenspan's speech,
which smacked down the market.

For some odd reason I found this hilarious.

spike







From sentience at pobox.com  Sun Oct 28 22:32:43 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:32:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028145339.022872d8@satx.rr.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028145339.022872d8@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <47250E0B.8070301@pobox.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> That's not really the point, which is that in popular 
> English-language [mis]usage (taking a rather restricted value of 
> "popular"), the error is to universalize the "ye who enter" rather 
> than the "hope"--which weakens the absolute terror of the 
> inscription. "All" and "any" are effectively synonymous in this context.

"Abandon any hope" sounds like "Pick one arbitrary hope and abandon it."

My translation by Allen Mandelbaum has:

  LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
   /
  ABANDON EVERY HOPE, WHO ENTER HERE

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct 28 23:05:30 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:05:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <47250E0B.8070301@pobox.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028145339.022872d8@satx.rr.com>
	<47250E0B.8070301@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710281605p32cff8ey7a7f5b046dd18188@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/07, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:
> "Abandon any hope" sounds like "Pick one arbitrary hope and abandon it."
>
> My translation by Allen Mandelbaum has:
>   LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
>   ABANDON EVERY HOPE, WHO ENTER HERE
>


The trouble with translating The Divine Comedy is that it is an
allegorical poem.
Words used for poetic effect in Italian don't necessarily translate to
the same meaning and overtones in English.

'hope' probably wasn't referring to any specific existing hope, more
the whole possibility of having any future hopes at all.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy>
has 15 alternative translations at the foot of the page.

I think this one probably gets closest to the original meaning.
No room for hope, when you enter this place - C. H. Sisson (1980)

BillK


From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 23:20:53 2007
From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710282106.l9SL6eap020324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <502318.68378.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

spike, your comments made me think of the piers anthony series, &quot;incarnations of immortality&quot; or the classic novels of the masterful terry prachett.  I sure hate sending posts (like this one) by non-blackberry cell phone! Lol  john grigg

Spike wrote: 
>> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
>> Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
>> 
>> 
>> > >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
>> >
>> >No, damn it!
>> >
>> >"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
>> >
>> >Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>> >
>> >Stefano Vaj
>> 
>> That's not really the point, which is that in popular
>> English-language [mis]usage ...which weakens the absolute terror ...
>> Damien Broderick
> Ja, there was meaning lost in translation.  Dante was urging hell-goers to
> abandon irrational exuberance.  The hell-bound newbies should concentrate
> their assets in precious metals, hedge funds and the more bearishly oriented
> derivatives.
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 28 23:22:08 2007
From: desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com (John)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:22:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710282106.l9SL6eap020324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <161151.67522.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

spike, your comments made me think of the piers anthony series, &quot;incarnations of immortality&quot; or the classic novels of the masterful terry prachett.  I sure hate sending posts (like this one) by non-blackberry cell phone! Lol  john grigg

Spike wrote: 
>> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
>> Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
>> 
>> 
>> > >Abandon hope all ye who enter here
>> >
>> >No, damn it!
>> >
>> >"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
>> >
>> >Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>> >
>> >Stefano Vaj
>> 
>> That's not really the point, which is that in popular
>> English-language [mis]usage ...which weakens the absolute terror ...
>> Damien Broderick
> Ja, there was meaning lost in translation.  Dante was urging hell-goers to
> abandon irrational exuberance.  The hell-bound newbies should concentrate
> their assets in precious metals, hedge funds and the more bearishly oriented
> derivatives.
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 29 00:44:51 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:44:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <161151.67522.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200710290044.l9T0ilYX024234@andromeda.ziaspace.com>




>LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE

I consulted the ultimate authority, Babel fish, which translates thus:

"LEFT OGNE HOPE, YOU CH'INTRATE"

I don't know what is a chintrate, but it sure sounds like an insult.  You
can almost imagine the old devil lining up the novitiates, barking out like
a marine sergeant from... where else? Bellowing something like:

Listen up, you buncha verminous chintrates!  You can just FORGET getting any
OGNE down here, oral or otherwise!  Just abandon that notion right now,
because from now YOUR asses are MINE!  


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John [mailto:desertpaths2003 at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Re: [ExI] abandoning hope
> 
> ...  I sure hate sending posts (like this one) by
> non-blackberry cell phone! Lol  john grigg
> 


Oh man, I am such a geezer, I feel like a veritable Luddite.  I never even
owned a cell phone until 2006 when the baby was on the way and to this day I
am embarrassed to confess I have never even held a blackberry in my aging
hands.  And now that cell phone (which made me feel temporarily like a
techno-hipster) is already called by the young hipsters such as the
Griggmeister a "non-blackberry cell phone."  I don't even know how one sends
a message with such a device other than to actually speak into it.  I might
as well just go right on down to Alcor, hand them a credit card and climb
into the dewar.

spike








From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Oct 29 01:00:11 2007
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:00:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710282146.l9SLk6N9001745@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200710282106.l9SL6eap020324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<200710282146.l9SLk6N9001745@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071028195859.0232faa8@satx.rr.com>

At 02:19 PM 10/28/2007 -0700, the Spikester wrote:

>The press people in attendance
>latched onto those two words in a speech that was all over the intellectual
>map, wrote headlines with "irrational exuberance" and took scandalous,
>figuratively violent, liberties with the content of Greenspan's speech,
>which smacked down the market.
>
>For some odd reason I found this hilarious.

You're a sick man, Spike. A very ill man.

Damien Broderick
[laughing on the inside]




From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 01:12:30 2007
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:42:30 +1030
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710290044.l9T0ilYX024234@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <161151.67522.qm@web35607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200710290044.l9T0ilYX024234@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <710b78fc0710281812y495b47ddu1d70e1b92ab847f@mail.gmail.com>

> Oh man, I am such a geezer, I feel like a veritable Luddite.  I never even
> owned a cell phone until 2006 when the baby was on the way and to this day I
> am embarrassed to confess I have never even held a blackberry in my aging
> hands.  And now that cell phone (which made me feel temporarily like a
> techno-hipster) is already called by the young hipsters such as the
> Griggmeister a "non-blackberry cell phone."  I don't even know how one sends
> a message with such a device other than to actually speak into it.  I might
> as well just go right on down to Alcor, hand them a credit card and climb
> into the dewar.
>
> spike

I've never used a blackberry either. Are these the kinds of things
that tech savvy people use? Or more for the suits? Personally, I find
when I want more than the level of phone functionality, I'm reaching
for my notebook (with 3g connection).

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com


From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Sun Oct 28 18:35:14 2007
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 10:35:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710282146.l9SLk6N9001745@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <200710282146.l9SLk6N9001745@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4724D662.7090708@mindspring.com>

What beautiful illustrations of how an idea expressed in one language 
(Italian, economics) is never perfectly translated into another 
language.   That's what the teachers were talking about when they said 
that learning another language gives one understanding of other 
cultures' way of experiencing reality.  Might even demonstrate the 
Worfian Hypothesis, that language controls our ways of thinking.  Great 
illustrations!

  - David

Spike wrote:
>>>>> Abandon hope all ye who enter here
>>>>>           
>>>> No, damn it!
>>>>
>>>> "Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."
>>>>
>>>> Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>>>>
>>>> Stefano Vaj
>>>>         
>> Ja, there was meaning lost in translation.  Dante was urging hell-goers to
>> abandon irrational exuberance.  ... spike
>>     
>
>
> This comment came from an experience a couple weeks ago on a plane heading
> east.  I was reading Greenspan's Age of Turbulence, which isn't a comedy,
> but I got to hee hawing over one passage, the other passengers found out I
> am a maniac.  The passage is on page 176, where he was talking about an
> address he made to the American Enterprise Institute on 5 December 1996.  If
> you recall the headlines of 6 December, Greenspan was quoted as having
> uttered the market slaying two words "irrational exuberance."  I took a
> whooping that day, and didn't appreciate it at all.
>
> In the book, he gives a complete transcript of that speech and what was
> going on at that gathering.  The dinner was delayed so they were bringing
> out cocktails beforehand.  It was a very dense, wonky, economics
> professorish speech.  Afterwards he seriously wondered what, if anything,
> the guests had taken from his talk.  From that transcript on pages 176 and
> 177 of Turbulence, it is clear he absolutely was not in any way suggesting
> that the stock market was overvalued.  The press people in attendance
> latched onto those two words in a speech that was all over the intellectual
> map, wrote headlines with "irrational exuberance" and took scandalous,
> figuratively violent, liberties with the content of Greenspan's speech,
> which smacked down the market.
>
> For some odd reason I found this hilarious.
>
> spike
>
>   



From amara at amara.com  Mon Oct 29 05:12:07 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 06:12:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230904c34b17d49d89@[23.237.66.13]>

Eliezer S. Yudkowsky sentience at pobox.com
Sun Oct 28 22:32:43 UTC 2007

>"Abandon any hope" sounds like "Pick one arbitrary hope and abandon it."

>My translation by Allen Mandelbaum has:

>  LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
>    /
>   ABANDON EVERY HOPE, WHO ENTER HERE


I wonder if my post was sucked into the abyss.
(OK, my Italian hellish ISP, maybe it was)

P.S : Ogne is mispelled? The literal meaning of that phrase with ogni:
is "You (plural) leave every hope (singular), you (plural) that
enters (you, plural)."

P.P.S. The phrase above is straightforward, but you should know
that Dante's old Italian is not even easy for Italians today
to follow.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Amara Graps amara at amara.com
Sun Oct 28 16:22:48 UTC 2007

Damien Broderick:
>>"Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate".
>"Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here."

Right. But literally it is _every_ hope.

Even those itsy, bitsy, teeny hopes that might be hanging
off one's coat jacket, sticking to one's shoes, embedded
under one's fingernails. Dante knew Italy well. Give up.

While I gave up hope, some people still are not heeding Dante.
Beppe Grillo announced his next V-day (literally: "Fuck off Day"
to the Parliamentarians) to be  April 25, 2008.

http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2007/10/yesterdays_vday_and_tomorrows.html

And Italy's bloggers, sick of the present unfree media raised
such a rukus over this stupidity,

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/22/italy-proposes-a-min.html#comments

and how the mainstream media went after Grillo's September 8 V-Day,
that the proposed law is being re-examined (likely dropped) and
an intense focus is on journalism and media now, to try to
change it.

There is another well-known expression here, to keep in mind, though:

"Tutto deve cambiare perch? nulla cambi"
(everything must change so that nothing will truly change)

Ciao,
Amara



From sentience at pobox.com  Mon Oct 29 05:24:15 2007
From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 22:24:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c34b17d49d89@[23.237.66.13]>
References: <p06230904c34b17d49d89@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <47256E7F.3020209@pobox.com>

Amara Graps wrote:
> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky sentience at pobox.com
> 
>>My translation by Allen Mandelbaum has:
> 
>> LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
>>   /
>>  ABANDON EVERY HOPE, WHO ENTER HERE
> 
> I wonder if my post was sucked into the abyss.
> (OK, my Italian hellish ISP, maybe it was)
> 
> P.S : Ogne is mispelled? The literal meaning of that phrase with ogni:
> is "You (plural) leave every hope (singular), you (plural) that
> enters (you, plural)."

Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not that I speak Italian.

-- 
Eliezer S. Yudkowsky                          http://singinst.org/
Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence


From amara at amara.com  Mon Oct 29 05:49:18 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 06:49:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230905c34b20dcbb90@[23.237.66.13]>

Eliezer:
>Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not that I speak Italian.

Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of Dante's old Italian.
It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the singular/plural rules,
'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine (but then speranza should
be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those singular feminine things),
or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza should be a mighty
plural speranze and it's not),

..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003 Garzanti (big dictionary
of today's Italian) or any of my other dictionaries.

Amara


From pgptag at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 07:37:55 2007
From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:37:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34b20dcbb90@23.237.66.13>
References: <p06230905c34b20dcbb90@23.237.66.13>
Message-ID: <470a3c520710290037q47224ff5m33f3509440880d95@mail.gmail.com>

"Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch' entrate"

I would translate it as "abandon every hope" or "abandon any hope".

The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a few years ago I told
her that this sentence, written in capital letters, appears on the
exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.

G.

On 10/29/07, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> Eliezer:
> >Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not that I speak Italian.
>
> Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of Dante's old Italian.
> It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the singular/plural rules,
> 'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine (but then speranza should
> be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those singular feminine things),
> or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza should be a mighty
> plural speranze and it's not),
>
> ..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003 Garzanti (big dictionary
> of today's Italian) or any of my other dictionaries.
>
> Amara
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From dharris234 at mindspring.com  Mon Oct 29 03:12:45 2007
From: dharris234 at mindspring.com (David C. Harris)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:12:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34b20dcbb90@[23.237.66.13]>
References: <p06230905c34b20dcbb90@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <47254FAD.5040109@mindspring.com>

This may help.  According to  
http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-90044.html, this 
participant sounded authoritative:

22nd January 2006, 02:42 AM,
Tommaso Gastaldi:
Yes that's correct. The original is: "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi 
ch'intrate"

When we use it in speech (not rarely), we usually use the modern 
version: "Lasciate ogni speranza o voi che entrate"
[but I guess that nobody could object if you use the original one!
In that case it's better to fully quote, otherwise one could think you 
are mispelling, because "Lasciate ogni speranza" alone does not 
necessarily refers to Dante :) ]

Esempi:
http://www.aduc.it/dyn/giannino/giannino_base.php?id=113241
http://fighe.iobloggo.com/
...

T, my memory definitely had it as "lasciate ogne speranza, voi 
ch'intrate", Dante not having been that familiar with modern spelling.

I'm going to go look....all my books are in boxes at the moment.

This would seem to confirm "ogne"

http://www.cilea.it/~bottoni/inferno03.htm
....................................................................................................

Amara Graps wrote:
> Eliezer:
>   
>> Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not that I speak Italian.
>>     
>
> Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of Dante's old Italian.
> It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the singular/plural rules,
> 'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine (but then speranza should
> be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those singular feminine things),
> or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza should be a mighty
> plural speranze and it's not),
>
> ..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003 Garzanti (big dictionary
> of today's Italian) or any of my other dictionaries.
>
> Amara
>
>   



From femmechakra at yahoo.ca  Mon Oct 29 09:48:13 2007
From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:48:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <470a3c520710290037q47224ff5m33f3509440880d95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <564350.56868.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <pgptag at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch' entrate"
> 
> I would translate it as "abandon every hope" or
> "abandon any hope".
> 
> The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a
> few years ago I told
> her that this sentence, written in capital letters,
> appears on the
> exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.
> 
> G.

Well when entering Quebec, we say Bonjour:)
Anna:)



> 
> On 10/29/07, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> > Eliezer:
> > >Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not
> that I speak Italian.
> >
> > Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of
> Dante's old Italian.
> > It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the
> singular/plural rules,
> > 'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine
> (but then speranza should
> > be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those
> singular feminine things),
> > or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza
> should be a mighty
> > plural speranze and it's not),
> >
> > ..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003
> Garzanti (big dictionary
> > of today's Italian) or any of my other
> dictionaries.
> >
> > Amara
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Oct 29 11:53:20 2007
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:53:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Story of a Box
In-Reply-To: <62c14240710281206s3608c9dbk694c192995191a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06230907c348ba0bad80@23.237.66.13>
	<4723E809.8000106@mindspring.com>
	<ee50357e0710280206w3dc0d615h42dfc40b1deb7f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20071028105013.02360548@satx.rr.com>
	<580930c20710281044p7daeef4bg95ccf44d70297c8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<62c14240710281206s3608c9dbk694c192995191a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580930c20710290453s5aea178fo63dc7c39dd1f2d5a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/07, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, it is "*any* hope".
>
> *most* ?
>
> *a significant majority of* ?


Ogni in Italian comes from Latin omnis. It means all, but the real sense is
also every, or "any whatsoever" in a negative sense (e.g. "I do not have any
hopes more"). All in the sense of "I drank all the milk" is "tutto".

Stefano
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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 29 15:26:28 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <564350.56868.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <588950.63051.qm@web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,
ogni is not old Italian spelling. The Dante's sentence is how we would write it in modern italian. Ogni is an adverb and has just this form (no femminine form) so it is used for both masculine and femmine worrds, and it means literally "each single one" or every. In this case "ogni speranza" means " any and every hope".
Dante finds this sentence engraved on the front of the entrance to Inferno.
The reason why it is on back side of the entering door at the Italian airport could be interpreted, I think,  to mean that if you leave Italy, you loose all your hopes. 
Well, Italy can be both a paradise and a hell at the same time.
Utopia and distropia in one place.


Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote: --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
 wrote:

> "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch' entrate"
> 
> I would translate it as "abandon every hope" or
> "abandon any hope".
> 
> The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a
> few years ago I told
> her that this sentence, written in capital letters,
> appears on the
> exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.
> 
> G.

Well when entering Quebec, we say Bonjour:)
Anna:)



> 
> On 10/29/07, Amara Graps  wrote:
> > Eliezer:
> > >Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not
> that I speak Italian.
> >
> > Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of
> Dante's old Italian.
> > It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the
> singular/plural rules,
> > 'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine
> (but then speranza should
> > be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those
> singular feminine things),
> > or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza
> should be a mighty
> > plural speranze and it's not),
> >
> > ..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003
> Garzanti (big dictionary
> > of today's Italian) or any of my other
> dictionaries.
> >
> > Amara
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 29 15:46:28 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:46:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <564350.56868.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <217610.92997.qm@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ok,
made a mistake
the original Dante version is:
Lasciate ogne speranza voi ch'intrate

ogne and intrate are both old italian spellings

I did some google search and it seems that in old italian writings people used the modern ogni in different forms; ogna (singular femminine), ogne (plural femminine) and so on... Well, italian was not really coded in strict grammatical rules at that time, basically Dante and other middle writers were making the language up at that moment...
I imagine the other forms died out and just ogni now is used in modern Italian,
I guess this is enough Italian grammar for one day for most people in this list...
But Dante is really cool (I love Benigni's spin on him)....



Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote: --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 
 wrote:

> "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch' entrate"
> 
> I would translate it as "abandon every hope" or
> "abandon any hope".
> 
> The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a
> few years ago I told
> her that this sentence, written in capital letters,
> appears on the
> exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.
> 
> G.

Well when entering Quebec, we say Bonjour:)
Anna:)



> 
> On 10/29/07, Amara Graps  wrote:
> > Eliezer:
> > >Checked my version again.  Still "Ogne".  Not
> that I speak Italian.
> >
> > Then either it is a misspelling, or an example of
> Dante's old Italian.
> > It makes some sense, sort of. If one extends the
> singular/plural rules,
> > 'Ogne' could be a singular adjective masculine
> (but then speranza should
> > be masculine, and it's not.. hope is one of those
> singular feminine things),
> > or a plural feminine  adjective (but then speranza
> should be a mighty
> > plural speranze and it's not),
> >
> > ..and anyway ogne isn't listed  in my 2003
> Garzanti (big dictionary
> > of today's Italian) or any of my other
> dictionaries.
> >
> > Amara
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
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From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 29 16:02:30 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
In-Reply-To: <200710280610.l9S6AqYX019399@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <787702.72270.qm@web31302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I saw the comet in Lake Charles, LA . I went to my mother in law place on sunday, she lives in the country outside town.
The comet was visible with the naked eye, even at low height above the horizon. 
To the naked eye it looked like a normal star.
It was in Perseus and it was as bright as the brightest stars in that constellation. I had a pair of 10X50 binoculars and it was immediately apparent with them, that it was not a star but a beautiful fuzzy ball. I could see the nucleus of the comet and the roundish halo arount it.
It was really beautiful.
I will bring my astronomy students out tonight to watch it and use a 8 inch telescope to take pictures. I will try to post them here.



Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote: 
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike
> Subject: [ExI] comet holmes
> 
> Europeans, it should be dark there by now.  Has anyone sighted comet
> Holmes?
> It is at the base of Perseus, below and to the east of the Polaris.
> 
> spike



It was cloudy here in Taxifornia this evening.  Any other Americans get a
view of it?

spike






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From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 30 02:54:57 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:54:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Lifeboat News
Message-ID: <B23493E3-1E70-4E42-ABB2-266F3229B9E8@mac.com>

Oct 28 - Nobel Laureate Eric S. Maskin joins our Scientific Advisory  
Board. We congratulate him on his 2007 Nobel win!

On a grimmer note, I found this excellent article which I had not  
read by McNamara. Soon to be incorporated to the LF site.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2829&print=1

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
Lifeboat Foundation    http://lifeboat.com
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From andres at thoughtware.tv  Tue Oct 30 04:12:21 2007
From: andres at thoughtware.tv (Andres Colon)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:12:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Transhuman Computation: Your Collective Intelligence Required
Message-ID: <f1d9c15f0710292112x4082d427nf2c70378fe538b34@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, everybody.

I am Andr?s, from Thoughtware.TV. I have an idea I am going to implement and
I think you can contribute, so I'm asking for your help.

Please note I am not asking for any money, all I need is for you to
cooperate and help enhance our group's intellectual performance.

First I would like to better understand what Collective Intelligence is. How
does it emerge in biology, sociology, computer science, business and mass
behavior?

And second and most important: How can it be harnessed?

I would like to see examples on how it can be harnessed. From bacterial
colonies, web-services and human computation, I would like for you to share
any resources, blogs, websites, books, fiction or not, arts, anything you
can remember or find.

Thank you.

Andr?s Col?n,
Thoughtware.TV <http://www.Thoughtware.TV> - "In a vast, windy field
watching the sky and pondering new ideas."- "The human mind is like a
fertile ground where seeds are continually being planted."-"The seeds are
opinions, ideas, and concepts. You plant a seed, a meme, a thought, and it
comes to life! You watch it grow."

help it grow
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From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 30 04:44:14 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:44:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dennett's AAI acceptance speech
Message-ID: <09F84D67-48DD-4CB2-A76A-0281EA3EA65D@mac.com>

Dan Dennett's interesting award acceptance speech at the recent  
Atheist Alliance conference is now on YouTube:

Part 1:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlGne3xPDA

Part 2:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlGne3xPDA

You may want to skip Julia Sweeny's annoying intro (until min. 6).  
Richard then speaks about Dennett until min. 15.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RationalResponse  has many other videos  
from that conference.

--
Sergio M.L. Tarrero
Lifeboat Foundation    http://lifeboat.com


From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 30 04:56:11 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:56:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dennett's AAI acceptance speech
In-Reply-To: <09F84D67-48DD-4CB2-A76A-0281EA3EA65D@mac.com>
References: <09F84D67-48DD-4CB2-A76A-0281EA3EA65D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2E03052A-227D-4FA8-823B-80CB9DA47FFF@mac.com>

Sorry, Part 1 is here:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyyRAE7PDvw


On Oct 30, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Sergio M.L. Tarrero wrote:

> Dan Dennett's interesting award acceptance speech at the recent  
> Atheist Alliance conference is now on YouTube:
>
> Part 1:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlGne3xPDA
>
> Part 2:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OlGne3xPDA
>
> You may want to skip Julia Sweeny's annoying intro (until min. 6).  
> Richard then speaks about Dennett until min. 15.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/RationalResponse  has many other videos  
> from that conference.
>
> --
> Sergio M.L. Tarrero
> Lifeboat Foundation    http://lifeboat.com



From amara at amara.com  Tue Oct 30 05:37:42 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:37:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230900c34c71dc0f3e@[23.237.66.14]>


>The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a few years ago I told
>her that this sentence, written in capital letters, appears on the
>exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.

It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy.

Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major
Rome bus terminal / metro stop.

All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank
cards, drivers licenses, ... two weeks before I make an international
move (that's _why_ I'm carrying all of that, I'm closing out all of my
accounts, visiting bureaucratic offices, making reservations, plans and
so on.)

Probably no time else in my life, except when I was a kid, have I been
reduced to a single piece of authentic identification: my birth
certificate.

Amara


From sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com  Tue Oct 30 08:10:14 2007
From: sergio.ml.tarrero at mac.com (Sergio M.L. Tarrero)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:10:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c34c71dc0f3e@[23.237.66.14]>
References: <p06230900c34c71dc0f3e@[23.237.66.14]>
Message-ID: <5E76AF6E-D98E-412A-AD85-BE97BDE99D23@mac.com>

On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Amara Graps wrote:

>
>> The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a few years ago I  
>> told
>> her that this sentence, written in capital letters, appears on the
>> exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.
>
> It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy.
>
> Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major
> Rome bus terminal / metro stop.
>
> All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank
> cards, drivers licenses, ... two weeks before I make an international
> move (that's _why_ I'm carrying all of that, I'm closing out all of my
> accounts, visiting bureaucratic offices, making reservations, plans  
> and
> so on.)

Very sorry to hear, Amara. That sucks. Just what you needed before  
such a major move. What a nightmare. That'll leave a nasty  
aftertaste, as the one major event which capped all that you've told  
us which you have endured there for years (comparatively, the Story  
of a Box is not so bad).

My best wishes for a rapid recovery of your life.

--
Sergio


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 30 18:18:21 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230900c34c71dc0f3e@[23.237.66.14]>
Message-ID: <497331.75343.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm sorry Amara,
  that is horrible.
  Italy has a lot of bad sides but there are bad sides in every country.
  When I lived in Italy (13 years ago) crime was much lower than now. It is still very rare for people to be killed for few dollars (or euros) as it happens here in the US.
   I have to say that there is a high likelihood that your passport was stolen by one of the many immigrants in Italy. I don't want to put down any ethnic group but it is a reality that crime shoot up when a lot of people from east european country started to invade Italy.
  I think eventually you will miss many think from that paradoxical country....
  I wish you the best wherever you are...
  .
  

Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
  
>The fun thing is that when Amara moved to Italy a few years ago I told
>her that this sentence, written in capital letters, appears on the
>exit door of the airport for those who enter Italy.

It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy.

Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major
Rome bus terminal / metro stop.

All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank
cards, drivers licenses, ... two weeks before I make an international
move (that's _why_ I'm carrying all of that, I'm closing out all of my
accounts, visiting bureaucratic offices, making reservations, plans and
so on.)

Probably no time else in my life, except when I was a kid, have I been
reduced to a single piece of authentic identification: my birth
certificate.

Amara
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From hkhenson at rogers.com  Tue Oct 30 23:45:22 2007
From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:45:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pointer to a Keith Henson story
In-Reply-To: <497331.75343.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <p06230900c34c71dc0f3e@[23.237.66.14]>
	<497331.75343.qm@web31313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1193787874_35468@S4.cableone.net>

If you go here

http://www.kuro5hin.org/

(You may have to sign up, but it's free to read, and only $5.00 for 
lifetime posting rights.)

and click on " Moderate Submissions" on the right side, there is a 
story I wrote while really pissed off in jail.

My work isn't very popular on that place, so if you want to read it, 
better do so before it gets voted down.

Keith Henson



From neptune at superlink.net  Wed Oct 31 02:21:11 2007
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:21:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CFP: New Perspectives on Anarchism
Message-ID: <004001c81b64$b51fd160$34893cd1@pavilion>

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=2007103008490685
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 31 01:40:44 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:40:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <5E76AF6E-D98E-412A-AD85-BE97BDE99D23@mac.com>
Message-ID: <200710310207.l9V27L5C006473@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] abandoning hope
> 
> On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Amara Graps wrote:
> >
> > It should be also for those who are desperate to leave Italy.
> >
> > Monday (yesterday morning at 9:30) my wallet was stolen at a major
> > Rome bus terminal / metro stop.
> >
> > All passports, identity cards, permits, credit cards (but one), bank
> > cards, drivers licenses, ... 



Amara, if or when it becomes necessary to raise a posse to ride out on a
rescue Amara mission, do let us know when, where and how.  I would be
interested to see what a diffuse cloud of transhumanist oriented individual
particles can accomplish if called upon to do so.  I fear we weren't much
help to Keith, but perhaps we were better than nothing.

spike


 




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 31 04:14:21 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:14:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] earthquake
In-Reply-To: <1193787874_35468@S4.cableone.net>
Message-ID: <200710310440.l9V4exhG003230@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


This is so cool living in the internet age.  I was in the paint store this
evening when an earthquake hit.  Less than an hour later there is a news
story about it on the internet. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306537,00.html

I never thought about how heavy are fully stocked shelves of paint until I
saw them swaying like palms in a tropical storm, resonant frequency about
one Hz.  I decided not to go near those paint shelves, in case this was a
foreshock.

spike


  



From sparkle_robot at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 31 05:53:16 2007
From: sparkle_robot at yahoo.com (Anne Corwin)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] earthquake
In-Reply-To: <200710310440.l9V4exhG003230@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <572939.22999.qm@web56503.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Spike: I agree (re. the "Internet age" thing).  I wrote briefly here about the quake soon after it happened: http://www.existenceiswonderful.com/2007/10/you-know-youre-in-california-when.html

It was sort of funny -- one second I was standing in the doorway thinking, "OK, is my apartment going to crush my head?" and the next second I was thinking, "Gee, I hope the DSL doesn't go down!"  Priorities!

- Anne

Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote: 
This is so cool living in the internet age.  I was in the paint store this
evening when an earthquake hit.  Less than an hour later there is a news
story about it on the internet. 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306537,00.html

I never thought about how heavy are fully stocked shelves of paint until I
saw them swaying like palms in a tropical storm, resonant frequency about
one Hz.  I decided not to go near those paint shelves, in case this was a
foreshock.

spike


  

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From amara at amara.com  Wed Oct 31 07:17:29 2007
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:17:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  abandoning hope
Message-ID: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>

>I'm sorry Amara,
>   that is horrible.

I'll need the next six months to build up these documents again, with
some of them, needing me to apply in person (either to Riga or to
Washington D.C. and to California), but I wasn't injured.

Yesterday at the going away party (for my colleague, but I considered it
also for me, since today is my last day at work), my boss told me "I'm
sorry." I don't know for which event she was referring, actually, from
Monday's theft, or anything from the last years.  It's quite an odd
feeling now.

I'm like a baby..  I almost don't exist, except for my birth
certificate. So I do know that I was born. :-) The US Embassy accepted
my birth certificate and my photocopies of the missing documents to
begin again a new full passport for me. It will be ready on November 15.
They were quite kind and helpful.. and obviously experienced with
Americans having their bags/passports stolen. One other person there
yesterday wasn't even a 'baby'.. he didn't exist at all!

>Italy has a lot of bad sides but there are bad sides in every country.

Italy is a beautiful place to visit, but living in Italy is an entirely
different story. It has no functioning infrastructure, and as a result,
daily life is a mess. If I were to write a book on my last years, I would
title it: "My Life in a Queue".

Of course if one has family, then they know someone who knows someone
who knows someone, who can do that thing for you to avoid some of the
queues. That is the social/familial network that is absolutely necessary
to survive in Italy.

>I have to say that there is a high likelihood that your passport was
>stolen by one of the many immigrants in Italy. I don't want to put down
>any ethnic group but it is a reality that crime shoot up when a lot of
>people from east european country started to invade Italy.

Bzzzt! I'm so tired of hearing that. It is an explanation with
no investigation behind it.

I suggest for all Italians to spend some time in the central Rome
Questura for immigration or in their local polizia to try to understand
the effect of their country's immigration policies on foreigners (which
in Italy is _not_ a large percentage of the population.. Look at the
numbers!)

Similarly I encourage all Americans to spend some time in US INS offices
to learn the same.

Last year I began to joke at my scientific conferences that if I was
suddenly not present, it was because I was detained at the immigration
processing center at Lampedusa.. (I've been an illegal immigrant for
most of my ~5 years in Italy.. and by the way, one of my passports is
from an 'eastern european' country.)

More here:
http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/05/17/economists-on-immigration/#comment-22483

with this update on the info I wrote in the above link:

1) in August 2006, Italy accepted the new EU countries as 'normal' EU
with no quota for working in the country, so I could have begun again my
paperwork with my Latvian passport. I was so tired of polizia queues
from the previous years, and since I didn't think I would be living in
Italy too much longer, I didn't do it.

2) I learned in September 2006, that there is a 'faster track' for
getting a permesso for some skilled workers, but my (scientific)
workplace apparently didn't know, and had me following a different
procedure since December 2002 that's true for any new immigrant
off of the boat.

>I think eventually you will miss many think from that paradoxical
>country....

I think no Italian will ever meet another stranieri like me, who has
tried as hard as I did to live in 'that paradoxical country'. I do know
the things and people I will miss. I've written a few hundred pages
in my travel log of the interesting/endearing things about the country.
In time, I will remember more of the good things.

Once upon a time I was even quite optimistic:
http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/seeds-for-the-next-renaissance/

and two years later, still with hope:
http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/terzo_anello/scienza/mostra_evento.cfm?Q_EV_ID=140150&Q_PROG_ID=344

even though daily life was unlivable for all of that time:
http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/lescienze.txt

However, at this moment, the thought and steps to November 17, when I
leave Italy, feels like a large weight off of my shoulders.

>I wish you the best wherever you are...

well, thank you!

Amara



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Oct 31 10:52:05 2007
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:52:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>
References: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <36639.72.236.103.119.1193827925.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



The whole thing is just sickening.  I'm so sorry to hear your tale of woe and hope
the passport comes through on time. And your other passport, I hope it also can be
replaced without difficulty.

What a bummer. I forwarded your story to my daughter in Germany. She feels so at
home right now, I'm sure her guard is *way* down, but she needs to be protective of
her papers, they're her lifeline to everywhere.

Regards,
MB




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 31 15:12:27 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:12:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <200710311539.l9VFd3FN023324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
> 
> ... If I were to write a book on my last years, I would
> title it: "My Life in a Queue"...

Woohoo!  I totally second that motion.  I would buy the hell outta that book
forthwith, then send it to the author for an autograph.  Sounds like you
have most of it already written: 

...
> More here:
> http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/05/17/economists-on-immigration/#comment-
> 22483
>...
> and two years later, still with hope:
> http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/terzo_anello/scienza/mostra_evento.cfm?Q_EV
> _ID=140150&Q_PROG_ID=344
> 
> even though daily life was unlivable for all of that time:
> http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/lescienze.txt
...
> >I wish you the best wherever you are...
> 
> well, thank you!
> 
> Amara



Such an exciting and challenging road thru life you have chosen, ja?

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 15:59:55 2007
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:59:55 +0000
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710311539.l9VFd3FN023324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@23.237.66.13>
	<200710311539.l9VFd3FN023324@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <ee50357e0710310859k5e4a713cy234027d939259b77@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/31/07, Spike wrote:
>
> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps
> > Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
> >
> > ... If I were to write a book on my last years, I would
> > title it: "My Life in a Queue"...
>
> Woohoo!  I totally second that motion.  I would buy the hell outta that book
> forthwith, then send it to the author for an autograph.  Sounds like you
> have most of it already written:
>


I sure I've heard somewhere that back in wartime UK and after, when
much was still rationed, if people saw a queue they would join it
automatically because they knew there must be something worth having
at the front of the queue.

The art of queuing is gradually breaking down in the UK as society is
becoming more anarchic with many foreign people and youngsters brought
up in an 'anything goes' environment.

BillK


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 31 17:38:14 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <994090.783.qm@web31311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Amara,
(sorry for my silly mispellings in my previous post)
I understand your position and in the end I agree with your analysis of the Italian situation...In particular I'm very sorry about the state of science in that country.
This is why I left myself, and I'm from there...I left my family, my friends, my culture, and I don't regret it because I was able to follow my dream of being a scientist and it was fulfilled here in the USA. It would have been much harder to do that in Italy.
Any time I meet Italian scientists at a conference I'm saddened by their tales of all sorts of problems they encouter in their life in the Italian scientific world and in particular how little they are paid.
And still, Italy manages to be a leader in many fields of science and technology...
Maybe the family network compensates so well for the problems you talked about that Italians in the end are extremely attached to their country and it is difficult for them to leave.
I would say the quality of life is superior in many ways in Italy.
People know how to enjoy life. There is more depth in so many aspects of life, family relationships, friendships, appreciation for art and culture in general, and so on. 
In a way, though, I can see all this better from a distance...

It can be interesting to reflect on how Italy went from a center of knowledge and innovation during the Renaissance to a much more stagnant and peripheral place today. Maybe there are important lessons there, in particular from the point of view of transhumanism. Renaissance had a lot of point in common with the vision of the world of transhumanism.
What went wrong?

PS
Most of my knowledge of what is going in Italy right now comes from talking to my family and the news on the web. Almost every day there are several news that talk about people from Romania, Albania and so on being arrested for some horrible crime. Maybe the media are guilty of some discrimination, but up to a point.
The fact is that a lot of honest people migrated but among them there a lot of serious criminals.
My ex-wife and my son are from Estonia, from east Europe.

Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: >I'm sorry Amara,
>   that is horrible.

I'll need the next six months to build up these documents again, with
some of them, needing me to apply in person (either to Riga or to
Washington D.C. and to California), but I wasn't injured.

Yesterday at the going away party (for my colleague, but I considered it
also for me, since today is my last day at work), my boss told me "I'm
sorry." I don't know for which event she was referring, actually, from
Monday's theft, or anything from the last years.  It's quite an odd
feeling now.

I'm like a baby..  I almost don't exist, except for my birth
certificate. So I do know that I was born. :-) The US Embassy accepted
my birth certificate and my photocopies of the missing documents to
begin again a new full passport for me. It will be ready on November 15.
They were quite kind and helpful.. and obviously experienced with
Americans having their bags/passports stolen. One other person there
yesterday wasn't even a 'baby'.. he didn't exist at all!

>Italy has a lot of bad sides but there are bad sides in every country.

Italy is a beautiful place to visit, but living in Italy is an entirely
different story. It has no functioning infrastructure, and as a result,
daily life is a mess. If I were to write a book on my last years, I would
title it: "My Life in a Queue".

Of course if one has family, then they know someone who knows someone
who knows someone, who can do that thing for you to avoid some of the
queues. That is the social/familial network that is absolutely necessary
to survive in Italy.

>I have to say that there is a high likelihood that your passport was
>stolen by one of the many immigrants in Italy. I don't want to put down
>any ethnic group but it is a reality that crime shoot up when a lot of
>people from east european country started to invade Italy.

Bzzzt! I'm so tired of hearing that. It is an explanation with
no investigation behind it.

I suggest for all Italians to spend some time in the central Rome
Questura for immigration or in their local polizia to try to understand
the effect of their country's immigration policies on foreigners (which
in Italy is _not_ a large percentage of the population.. Look at the
numbers!)

Similarly I encourage all Americans to spend some time in US INS offices
to learn the same.

Last year I began to joke at my scientific conferences that if I was
suddenly not present, it was because I was detained at the immigration
processing center at Lampedusa.. (I've been an illegal immigrant for
most of my ~5 years in Italy.. and by the way, one of my passports is
from an 'eastern european' country.)

More here:
http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/05/17/economists-on-immigration/#comment-22483

with this update on the info I wrote in the above link:

1) in August 2006, Italy accepted the new EU countries as 'normal' EU
with no quota for working in the country, so I could have begun again my
paperwork with my Latvian passport. I was so tired of polizia queues
from the previous years, and since I didn't think I would be living in
Italy too much longer, I didn't do it.

2) I learned in September 2006, that there is a 'faster track' for
getting a permesso for some skilled workers, but my (scientific)
workplace apparently didn't know, and had me following a different
procedure since December 2002 that's true for any new immigrant
off of the boat.

>I think eventually you will miss many think from that paradoxical
>country....

I think no Italian will ever meet another stranieri like me, who has
tried as hard as I did to live in 'that paradoxical country'. I do know
the things and people I will miss. I've written a few hundred pages
in my travel log of the interesting/endearing things about the country.
In time, I will remember more of the good things.

Once upon a time I was even quite optimistic:
http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/seeds-for-the-next-renaissance/

and two years later, still with hope:
http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/terzo_anello/scienza/mostra_evento.cfm?Q_EV_ID=140150&Q_PROG_ID=344

even though daily life was unlivable for all of that time:
http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/lescienze.txt

However, at this moment, the thought and steps to November 17, when I
leave Italy, feels like a large weight off of my shoulders.

>I wish you the best wherever you are...

well, thank you!

Amara

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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 31 19:21:17 2007
From: spike66 at att.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:21:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <ee50357e0710310859k5e4a713cy234027d939259b77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200710311921.l9VJLEg7011645@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
> 
> The art of queuing is gradually breaking down in the UK as society is
> becoming more anarchic with many foreign people and youngsters brought
> up in an 'anything goes' environment.
> 
> BillK


Ja. But the art of queuing should break down.  If there are many customers
in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers.  If they
haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the
customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should.  Time is valuable
stuff.  If one sees anywhere people spending a bunch of time in the queue,
that is a pathological market condition in need of a market remedy, a severe
remedy if necessary.

spike







From nymphomation at gmail.com  Wed Oct 31 20:04:22 2007
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (Nymph0)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:04:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <200710311921.l9VJLEg7011645@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <ee50357e0710310859k5e4a713cy234027d939259b77@mail.gmail.com>
	<200710311921.l9VJLEg7011645@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <7e1e56ce0710311304o6a0a185fyaf8ace09d9e58348@mail.gmail.com>

On 31/10/2007, Spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
> ...
> >
> > The art of queuing is gradually breaking down in the UK as society is
> > becoming more anarchic with many foreign people and youngsters brought
> > up in an 'anything goes' environment.
> >
> > BillK
>
> Ja. But the art of queuing should break down.  If there are many customers
> in line anywhere, the merchant needs to open additional registers.  If they
> haven't enough proles working the registers to keep the lines short, the
> customers will take their trade elsewhere, as they should.  Time is valuable
> stuff.  If one sees anywhere people spending a bunch of time in the queue,
> that is a pathological market condition in need of a market remedy, a severe
> remedy if necessary.

These days we just have a riot:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=44366&in_page_id=34
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article101943.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2051626,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4252421.stm

o_O

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

I'm coming now, I'm coming to reward them,
I'm guided by a signal in the heavens


From santostasigio at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 31 21:06:34 2007
From: santostasigio at yahoo.com (giovanni santost)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] abandoning hope
In-Reply-To: <p06230905c34dcbe2c70c@[23.237.66.13]>
Message-ID: <477346.34099.qm@web31306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Amara what is your field of research?
Planetology, but what exactly?


Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: >I'm sorry Amara,
>   that is horrible.

I'll need the next six months to build up these documents again, with
some of them, needing me to apply in person (either to Riga or to
Washington D.C. and to California), but I wasn't injured.

Yesterday at the going away party (for my colleague, but I considered it
also for me, since today is my last day at work), my boss told me "I'm
sorry." I don't know for which event she was referring, actually, from
Monday's theft, or anything from the last years.  It's quite an odd
feeling now.

I'm like a baby..  I almost don't exist, except for my birth
certificate. So I do know that I was born. :-) The US Embassy accepted
my birth certificate and my photocopies of the missing documents to
begin again a new full passport for me. It will be ready on November 15.
They were quite kind and helpful.. and obviously experienced with
Americans having their bags/passports stolen. One other person there
yesterday wasn't even a 'baby'.. he didn't exist at all!

>Italy has a lot of bad sides but there are bad sides in every country.

Italy is a beautiful place to visit, but living in Italy is an entirely
different story. It has no functioning infrastructure, and as a result,
daily life is a mess. If I were to write a book on my last years, I would
title it: "My Life in a Queue".

Of course if one has family, then they know someone who knows someone
who knows someone, who can do that thing for you to avoid some of the
queues. That is the social/familial network that is absolutely necessary
to survive in Italy.

>I have to say that there is a high likelihood that your passport was
>stolen by one of the many immigrants in Italy. I don't want to put down
>any ethnic group but it is a reality that crime shoot up when a lot of
>people from east european country started to invade Italy.

Bzzzt! I'm so tired of hearing that. It is an explanation with
no investigation behind it.

I suggest for all Italians to spend some time in the central Rome
Questura for immigration or in their local polizia to try to understand
the effect of their country's immigration policies on foreigners (which
in Italy is _not_ a large percentage of the population.. Look at the
numbers!)

Similarly I encourage all Americans to spend some time in US INS offices
to learn the same.

Last year I began to joke at my scientific conferences that if I was
suddenly not present, it was because I was detained at the immigration
processing center at Lampedusa.. (I've been an illegal immigrant for
most of my ~5 years in Italy.. and by the way, one of my passports is
from an 'eastern european' country.)

More here:
http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/05/17/economists-on-immigration/#comment-22483

with this update on the info I wrote in the above link:

1) in August 2006, Italy accepted the new EU countries as 'normal' EU
with no quota for working in the country, so I could have begun again my
paperwork with my Latvian passport. I was so tired of polizia queues
from the previous years, and since I didn't think I would be living in
Italy too much longer, I didn't do it.

2) I learned in September 2006, that there is a 'faster track' for
getting a permesso for some skilled workers, but my (scientific)
workplace apparently didn't know, and had me following a different
procedure since December 2002 that's true for any new immigrant
off of the boat.

>I think eventually you will miss many think from that paradoxical
>country....

I think no Italian will ever meet another stranieri like me, who has
tried as hard as I did to live in 'that paradoxical country'. I do know
the things and people I will miss. I've written a few hundred pages
in my travel log of the interesting/endearing things about the country.
In time, I will remember more of the good things.

Once upon a time I was even quite optimistic:
http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/seeds-for-the-next-renaissance/

and two years later, still with hope:
http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/terzo_anello/scienza/mostra_evento.cfm?Q_EV_ID=140150&Q_PROG_ID=344

even though daily life was unlivable for all of that time:
http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/lescienze.txt

However, at this moment, the thought and steps to November 17, when I
leave Italy, feels like a large weight off of my shoulders.

>I wish you the best wherever you are...

well, thank you!

Amara

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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