[ExI] Preserving Western Institutions and Values We Share Here

[Lee Corbin]

BillK wrote (in our wandering threads, this time in
"Evils of the West") about expulsion as a phenomenon:

> On 4/15/09, Lee Corbin wrote:
> <snip>
>>  Right. The extreme actions being suggested by
>>  "some people" here, such as expulsions of
>>  dangerous minorities, would in effect "rise
>>  above principle". But, as was argued, sometimes
>>  in history that seems to be the right thing to
>>  do (e.g. what Lincoln had to do to win, what
>>  FDR was afraid of, how the Catholics saved
>>  France from Protestants in 1572, etc.).
> 
> Your examples are, of course, examples of wartime ferocity.

They were, but Europe exhibits many that were not.
For example, the expulsions of the Moriscos by
Spain (bad idea) was one, and expulsions of non-
Catholics by France (good idea) was another.

First I should explain those two cases I just
mentioned, that might perplex the rapid reader.

So many of the talented craftsman in southern Spain
happened to be Moriscos (Moorish converts to Catholicism
but who did not assimilate), that expelling them while
Spain had so few people relative to France simply
weakened Spain too much.

(Interestingly, Spain at this time for some reason
did share one problem with us: falling birth rates.)

France on the other hand, made a good move to remain
Catholic by expelling the Protestants (or killing
them---what I should insist is a much more genuine
atrocity), or (mainly) driving them out with
persecution, *even though* they were among the
most productive citizens. The analogy is as follows:

Nation   France 1600s          France today (or other western
                                        nation about to be
                                        overwhelmed by Muslims)


Value    Catholicism, the      Freedom of religion, press,
System   the true religion     legal rights of all kinds
          needing to be         not ever so far exhibited in
          saved/defended        any Muslim dominated country

> Your original discussion was about initiating a peacetime atrocity.

Expulsions happen a lot, and don't need wars. Here was Mirco's list:
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2009-April/048941.html

I never heard of mere expulsions described as 'atrocities'.
A good example of an atrocity is when they just kill or
maim a lot of people.

In each and every case what is most important is is,

    *Does the action in the long run damage or help preserve
    the treasured values at the center of attention?*

The risks are usually very great for a modern Western
nation *because* one of its values is that it preserves
(or tries to) the legal rights of all citizens.
Earlier societies didn't have to face this dilemma.

If a new drug that happened to make people into
extremely violent and reckless marauders who no
longer were at all productive, but just killed
other people, and it were spreading like wildfire,
should a country violate its own laws to suppress
the spread of this drug, even though it was only
being spread peaceably? What principle guides
your response?

> You'll have to declare war on Muslims first, for your original
> suggestion to be implemented and supported by the population.

I can't think of any expulsions where that was a necessary
prerequisite, though the French Huguenots were *so* rich
and well-organized that, practically, they'd been at real
war with the Catholics for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugenot#End_of_persecution_and_restoration_of_French_citizenship

So I don't see why a war would have to be
declared, although certainly many Muslims
living in Europe would see just *talk* of
an expulsion as an act of war, since they
already see even political cartoons that way.

A key difference between expelling Moriscos,
Jews, and Huguenots on the one hand, and for
modern European nations to expel Muslims on
the other, is that the latter are not nearly
so economically and culturally valuable.
Quite the reverse.

This also is related, of course, to what to
do about birth rates. The recent Russian
experience helps to convince me that financial
incentives are effective. In fact, France fell
behind Germany in population in the 19th century
---with extremely bad consequences for all three
wars since between them---by a mistake in the
Napoleonic Code that kept down population
growth in France.

Lee

P.S. Thanks for being past merely expressing
revulsion, horror, and disgust.