[ExI] Aggressive Atheism, by Pat Condell

Sat Dec 5 22:11:27 UTC 2009

Max, 

Thank you for your illustration of empathy and the proper way to treat a religious friend or family member. One thing I've seen in the older kids I taught in Sunday School in Austin (the middle school aged kids) was that a few of them where very mad at religious kids in their schools, they wanted to debate them and basically show them how silly they were.  I had a hard time explaining (or more-so having them agree) that we can respect other peoples' beliefs while still politely explaining ours. My son in particular is taken in by Pat Condell's type of sometimes spot on treatment of theology, but I cringe at the lack of respect, the lack of empathy.  I avoid letting my highly verbal and proud atheist son watch the more rough proponents of evolution, including Dawkins (or we talk about them if he watches them, he did get to see Michael Shermer's debate in Austin this past Spring--and Shermer was respectful for the most part)-- My personal preference is for
 people like Kenneth Miller who work with religious theory (http://www.amazon.com/Only-Theory-Evolution-Battle-Americas/dp/B001KVZ6RU/ref=pd_sim_b_1).  Of course, not all interactions with religious friends and family are simply about evolution, they often become about ones' soul-hell, heaven and eternity.  More-so it also is about approval, or kinship between that friend or relative.  My son has a grandfather who is quite religious and fears for his grand-children's souls, he's bought them Christian camps, sends Christian books, and even paid tuition at a Christian private school for my son. (That was the school that famously my son spent less than half a year at, as he often got in fights with other kids and ended up debating the existence of God with the principal, this was at age 4 when he was in first grade-he was reading at a third grade level).  The point is, that I think some atheists feel their belief is not validated unless they get the
 religious person to drop their beliefs. I've seen this in my son-and try to show him that you can have a different understanding of how the universe works and know you are right-while respecting the other persons' take on life.

It is hard right now-and I think your note really caught my attention Max because my son is in public school in England (as you know we moved from TX over the summer) and you are from England. Here the public school is quite religious, they pray to God, the Vicar of the Church of England Calverley (our village between Leeds and Bradford) comes and gives a weekly sermon to the school.  I've told my son that he can opt out, there is a Jehovah's Witness who stays in class to read when the rest of the class goes out to do religious activities (actually one of the best friends of my youngest daughter, we've had the girl to our home a few times).  The girl however sits out parties as well, as they are seen as part of a different religious tradition, and they have a philosophy of treating every day as special--not having days that are above other days. My son today told me he felt uncomfortable during the praying (this was after we attended a school hosted
 religious Christingle earlier today)--we discussed the God language, the "be a Christian language" and the "if you were baptized you are a saint" language.  Hi is conflicted however on if he wants to go or sit out.  He has decided that he wants to go to be with his friends, its a social thing.  He had considered sitting out, but decided to just be polite and follow along.  It sort of breaks my heart as I know he wants to argue, and I don't want him saying things that he doesn't believe in, at the same time I'm glad he's going along with it all and being polite.  The kids at the school they attend are all quite religious, one of my son's friends got mad at him for saying Santa was not real (and they are all in 6th form).  Its an ongoing thing with our friends and family, read the books they give us, take the knowledge from them-gently say how you disagree-but respect their belief and appreciate them in the end.  (after you say that their higher power
 will allow cryonics to work if they have more work for them ;-) -- okthat's an aside, but we all do our own variations of how to fit transhumanist ideals into scripture ;-) ) 

 Health, Happiness, Wisdom & Longevity :-) -- best wishes from --Shannon Vyff -- Alcor Area Readiness Team Coordinator, Venturist Director, ImmInst Chair and Methuselah Foundation 300 member, An author of "The Scientific Conquest of Death":http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Conquest-Death-Immortality-Institute/dp/9875611352, Author of the children's transhumanist adventure book "21st Century Kids": http://www.amazon.com/21st-Century-Kids-Middle_english-Shannon/dp/1886057001

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Message: 26
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:20:13 -0600
From: Max More <max at maxmore.com>
To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] pat condell's latest subtle rant
Message-ID: <200912050420.nB54KLCl021144 at andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Regarding:
Aggressive Atheism, by Pat Condell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjO4duhMRZk

I tried to watch this twice before, but stopped the video due to 
being put off by Condell's manner.

Tonight, I finally watched the whole thing. It made me feel like I 
was 18 years old again. An aggressive atheist. A guy who went to 
classes wearing badges (US: buttons) saying things like "legalize 
heroin", "taxation is theft", and "God is dead". It reminded me of 
confidently -- nay, arrogantly -- telling the religious buffoons 
what's what. And you know what? Every thing Condell says is basically right.

Yet, his attitude and approach, while refreshing, leaving me feeling 
that his message is purely and pointlessly a preaching-to-the-choir 
approach. Its value is completely one of entertainment. No, okay, it 
may also kick some atheists in the ass and inspire them to do 
something more active to combat the major problems that come with 
religious thinking.

While Condell's aggressive approach definitely has a degree of wisdom 
(and a load of intellectual good sense), is it really appropriate to, 
or useful for, or humanistic in, dealing with all situations?

For instance: My half-brother, who I just learned has been diagnosed 
with serious cancer, has asked me to read a novel that I see is 
extremely popular among the religious (Christian in particular): The Shack.

Relevant background: This is a (considerably older) half-brother -- 
simply "brother" as far as I knew until a few years ago -- who, when 
I was in my teens and had recently lost his beliefs... or rather, had 
thrown off the shackles of... religion, insisted (at a Christmas 
family gathering), that I would certainly go to Hell forever because 
I didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God.

A Pat Condell-style atheist might tell simply tell my brother that he 
is an idiot to believe this crap. I agreed to actually read this book 
and -- unless it really is *monumentally* stupid -- I intend to 
discuss it with my brother exploratively rather than explaining 
abruptly to him why his decades-long religious beliefs are moronic.

Am I a just a weak fool to do this? Is Condell's attitude and 
approach always useful/appropriate/effective/wise?

Max

-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 

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