From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 1 00:27:01 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:27:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] government corruption In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20902180124k2b848aafg644d15d52383af10@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60902222126ifbd83c1t8e86bd3ba8ed326f@mail.gmail.com> <49A4489C.2000209@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090224133424.02578e98@satx.rr.com> <49A5959E.7050703@libero.it> <49A6BFDC.10609@libero.it> <49A7F47D.1040104@libero.it> Message-ID: <49A9D655.4030803@libero.it> Il 28/02/2009 1.17, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/2/28 painlord2k at libero.it: > >> Was any government's Nursing Home or Hospital closed, their employees >> all dismissed, because they failed to comply with standard regulations? > > Yes, although there are more small privately run nursing homes so > statistically they are more likely to have problems. If there is a > scandal with a private institution often as not the public outcry is > against the government, for not regulating the industry properly. If > there is a scandal with a government institution the outcry is even > greater. Do you have a link? Because I can believe about the outcry, it is a bit more unbelievable about the consequences of the scandal. I know in Rome they discovered a public large hospitals that have not its tubes (the anti-fire ones) connected with the water pipes. Sure the managers were not fire immediately. >>> Interestingly, this regulation of private operators by the >>> government is demanded by the paying public, who don't derive a lot >>> of comfort from the idea that if their operation is screwed up they >>> can always go somewhere else. >> Again, the "paying public" demand the same regulation only for "private >> operators" or for "all operators"? The fact that there are only "private >> operators" or the controllers of the public operators are other public >> operators disinclined to rock the boat is not prove of anything against >> the private. > > Why would the standards and regulations for private be stricter than > for public? It is not that the rules are different, it is that they are often enforced in a different way. Know the "All are equal, but someone is more equal than others". > It's as if you think the regulators are selectively trying > to make the government's customers suffer, just for the fun of it. Sometimes I would think so, but it is only apparent. I think it is an unintended consequence of the regulators trying to rationing the services and the goods they promise to give to the people as they are unable to meet the demand. So they need to make more difficult / costly to use their services. They add co-pay (2 euros for any prescription, no more than four boxes for prescriptions), divide the drugs in groups for different pathologies, drugs are free only for a limited number of pathologies, wait lines and wait lists for anything, like nine months for physiotherapy or 9 months for hearth surgery. >> I worked in an hospital in the past, so they trained us to fire security >> (what to do, what don't). To teach us there actual, public official, >> fire-fighters. When the lesson ended, they tell us clear and plain that >> would be useless to tell them that the Hospital was not in comply with >> the security rules. They knew it; they had the hospital clean up the >> bigger problems, but to fix them all would be impossible and they could >> not cause a major public hospital to close. > > And of course, such a thing would never happen in a private hospital. Not in the same degree. Not for sure if the hospitals are completely out of the government connections. Just now, here, a private hospital survives only if it is in a contract ("convenzione") with the public health system. It will work as a public hospital, will be paid by the public health system, must give to the employees the same contract as the public health system, select them with public selections ("concorso pubblico"), etc. So, now, the hospitals are all, private or public, inside a political connections where they receive public money and give services to the public. > So the US is full of retarded unhealthy immigrants who won't abort > their deformed foetuses. I think this is only a part of the answer. I think that many citizens are a bit retarded, unhealthy and don't abort their damaged foetuses. > This is my point: you *know* there must be something wrong with the > evidence. It's like a religious conviction. If someone tell me that they have developed an engine with an efficiency equal or greater than 1 I will not believe it and I will suppose there is a flaw somewhere. The burden of the proof will be heavily on their side. If I see the water going up the hills, I will first doubt of my eyes. Price fixing and similar government controls of the economy are forty two century old (at least). http://www.mises.org/store/Forty-Centuries-of-Wage-and-Price-Controls-P566.aspx?AFID=14 They never worked before, so let me be a bit sceptic when someone come and tell they are able to do them work and ask for my money. Mirco From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 00:38:46 2009 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:38:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] government corruption In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090221230811.022cf170@satx.rr.com> References: <580930c20902180124k2b848aafg644d15d52383af10@mail.gmail.com> <0C860C687E7B49A6B984DED25691A120@spike> <49A02F23.7060006@libero.it> <49A097F1.7080801@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090221183935.0251e140@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60902212026x26ab830ei6c20f6257802aca9@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090221230811.022cf170@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:26 PM 2/21/2009 -0500, Rafal wrote: > > > What incredible nonsense. So I take it you've never had a credit card or >> a >> > bank loan, for example. >> >> ### Wow, Damien, are had a credit card that just jumped out of your >> wallet and started buying stuff you didn't want?! >> > > Apparently--to my continuing astonishment--fucking up their records of > one's dealings with them, as they do repeatedly, either carelessly or > guilefully, so one is baselessly listed in credit reports as a defaulter, > and then they take forever to fix it, after one spends hours on the phone to > useless "staff", or they never do. In addition, as my financial advisor > noted: Damien, to the best of my knowledge that it takes ~8 years to purge financial records. So it is not "forever", it is 8 years. Which if you have a long term perspective on things is not so very long. It is less than a decade (1/7th or 1/8th of ones life using standard measures.) Though I would tend to agree that the time being spent to fix things before that period may be an endless time sink. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 1 00:45:39 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:45:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] government corruption In-Reply-To: <580930c20902281553m2a4bf57fk229da4b5e6019145@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20902180124k2b848aafg644d15d52383af10@mail.gmail.com> <49A4489C.2000209@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090224133424.02578e98@satx.rr.com> <49A5959E.7050703@libero.it> <49A6BFDC.10609@libero.it> <74720CC03C104BD6BBA865FCAE4BC500@spike> <1235790333.26187.52.camel@localhost> <49A9CA5E.60600@libero.it> <580930c20902281553m2a4bf57fk229da4b5e6019145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A9DAB3.80501@libero.it> Il 01/03/2009 0.53, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 12:35 AM, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: >> Migrants have, usually, a lower IQ than the Europeans and the East Asians >> (mainly migrants from Africa and south Asia and south America). > > I suspect it depends to a large on the migration concerned and the > origin, reasons and nature thereof. > > I suspect for instance that the offspring of the Europeans emigrated > in North America do not score much below the average Native > American... :-) There are always exceptions, so I writed "usually". Also, it is difficult that the "european migrantes" have a lower IQ of the Europeans. Then, we must understand that the migrants are not a faithful mirror of the people they came from. I suppose many migrants (from Africa, for example) are more intelligent of the mean of their nations. They find it is simpler to come in Europe or America and have a future than live in their country under some stupid, but unscrupulous, ruler and his thugs. I find it is a big problem to integrate a group of people that have a mean IQ 1 or 2 standard deviations under the IQ of the locals. They will find themselves excluded from university and high wages jobs, but university and high wage jobs need, by default, an high IQ. When the share of population with wild differences of IQ is large (in UK 1 of 9 people is born somewhere else) things will start to go wrong, society will stratify and will be vulnerable to internal unrest. But this is another topic. Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 03:09:15 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:09:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] government corruption In-Reply-To: <49A9D655.4030803@libero.it> References: <580930c20902180124k2b848aafg644d15d52383af10@mail.gmail.com> <49A4489C.2000209@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090224133424.02578e98@satx.rr.com> <49A5959E.7050703@libero.it> <49A6BFDC.10609@libero.it> <49A7F47D.1040104@libero.it> <49A9D655.4030803@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/1 painlord2k at libero.it : > Do you have a link? > Because I can believe about the outcry, it is a bit more unbelievable about > the consequences of the scandal. > > I know in Rome they discovered a public large hospitals that have not its > tubes (the anti-fire ones) connected with the water pipes. > Sure the managers were not fire immediately. Your experience of Italy should perhaps not be generalised to the whole world. I was in Greece last year, and I was shocked at the casual attitude people had to corruption in the public hospital system, where it was common for staff to require bribes simply for doing their jobs. It was part of a general conviction that large institutions were out to cheat and exploit you, and therefore as a customer or employee you were within your rights to try to do the same to them. This seemed to apply not only to government departments, but also private businesses, from self-employed taxi drivers to hotels to banks. I ended up once spending half a day trying to find out what fees the bank would charge me if I didn't use my account for a prolonged period: no-one knew, and the effort of finding out seemed to visibly upset them. And apparently things have improved greatly compared to when Greece first joined the EU! -- Stathis Papaioannou From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Mar 1 05:04:23 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:04:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Posthumanist Games ... Structure of Chess (2D to 3D , 4D , 5D or 'N' Dimension) In-Reply-To: <62c14240902252045y653e9275y3375c32b15bbb390@mail.gmail.com > References: <20090225034816.7D6CD10CA@dnserns.isac.gov.in> <7.0.1.0.2.20090224230311.022ed4d0@satx.rr.com> <62c14240902252045y653e9275y3375c32b15bbb390@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090228230020.024490a8@satx.rr.com> At 11:45 PM 2/25/2009 -0500, Mike Dougherty wrote: >Hard to manage on a tesseract, but Rudy Rucker wrote some nice 4D >hypercube programs that might be adaptable by the terminally reckless. > >Did you mean to do that, or does such wordplay come naturally unbidden? It's obviously a *motivated* (and extremely feeble) pun, but not an *intended* one (being so feeble); I noted it in passing, but decided I couldn't be bothered going back and swapping in a synonym. So instead of retyping one word, I've now written three pretty pointless lines. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 03:56:04 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:26:04 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Hello, again! In-Reply-To: <123db6100902270934o2da0e4b3lb55f7b23071c607b@mail.gmail.com> References: <123db6100902270934o2da0e4b3lb55f7b23071c607b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903011956h65f44abal2aa3af20b9eae60f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/28 Christopher Whipple : > After an absence of several years, I've re-subscribed and I'm very > pleased to find some of the same familiar faces. ?To celebrate, I > bring you today's Garfield Minus Garfield: > > http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/day/2009/02/27/ > > -c. rofl! garfieldminusgarfield is a thing of beauty. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 2 04:51:51 2009 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 20:51:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior Message-ID: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiHlbimLZI Anna:) __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 16:57:32 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:57:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30903020857v1f5c2b52n44425eba91c748e7@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Anna Taylor wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiHlbimLZI Love it! PJ From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Mar 2 17:05:14 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:05:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <29666bf30903020857v1f5c2b52n44425eba91c748e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <29666bf30903020857v1f5c2b52n44425eba91c748e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ahha! Just saw it after reading PJ's comment. It is like holding up a sign that says "Life over Death" or "Be Transhuman" or - yes, simply "Extropy". Thanks Anna. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of PJ Manney Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:58 AM To: femmechakra at yahoo.ca; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropy behavior On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Anna Taylor wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiHlbimLZI Love it! PJ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From brent.allsop at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 03:44:19 2009 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:44:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49ACA793.1060409@comcast.net> Anna, That made it up to 2nd on my current list of favorite YouTubes. http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/35 Thanks Brent Allsop Anna Taylor wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiHlbimLZI > > Anna:) > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Mar 3 13:40:41 2009 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:40:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Mar 2009, Anna Taylor wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiHlbimLZI > Pickpocket's delight? Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 17:36:17 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:36:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Addendum to trade deficit thread Message-ID: <7641ddc60903030936ybdc7e8dm852c36f4a3620957@mail.gmail.com> http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/03/quote-of-day-becker-on-china-bashing.html Rafal From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 20:03:53 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:03:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] skilled immigrants leaving the U.S. in record numbers Message-ID: <2d6187670903031203y5fee1930uf0d0f64d22fce5c9@mail.gmail.com> I can't get over how the U.S. government only allows relatively small numbers of foreigners to pursue advanced education and profitable careers here. And then to top it off we make it difficult for them to stay and settle down here. It seems to me we are undercutting ourselves by educating such gifted people and then having them leave to enrich their native country. This is not good for our economic "national security" and global competitiveness. I knew several IT guys from India who were very frustrated by these policies and did not want to return home. But at least India is a friend and someone we need to build up our connections with. At a major biotech research center I noticed many grad students and post docs from mainland China, and considering our economic and military rivalry with them, I really wonder about the wisdom of strengthening their research and development base by letting their best and brightest into the country for such work. John http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090303/bs_bw/feb2009tc20090228990934 By Vivek Wadhwa Vivek Wadhwa ? Tue Mar 3, 8:08 am ET As the debate over H-1B workers and skilled immigrants intensifies, we are losing sight of one important fact: The U.S. is no longer the only land of opportunity. If we don't want the immigrants who have fueled our innovation and economic growth, they now have options elsewhere. Immigrants are returning home in greater numbers. And new research shows they are returning to enjoy a better quality of life, better career prospects, and the comfort of being close to family and friends. Earlier research by my team suggested that a crisis was brewing because of a burgeoning immigration backlog. At the end of 2006, more than 1 million skilled professionals (engineers, scientists, doctors, researchers) and their families were in line for a yearly allotment of only 120,000 permanent resident visas. The wait time for some people ran longer than a decade. In the meantime, these workers were trapped in "immigration limbo." If they changed jobs or even took a promotion, they risked being pushed to the back of the permanent residency queue. We predicted that skilled foreign workerswould increasingly get fed up and return to countries like India and China where the economies were booming. Why should we care? Because immigrants are critical to the country's long-term economic health. Despite the fact that they constitute only 12% of the U.S. population, immigrants have started 52% of Silicon Valley's technology companies and contributed to more than 25% of our global patents. They make up 24% of the U.S. science and engineering workforce holding bachelor's degrees and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs. Immigrants have co-founded firms such as Google (NasdaqGS:GOOG- News), Intel (NasdaqGS:INTC- News), eBay (NasdaqGS:EBAY- News), and Yahoo! (NasdaqGS:YHOO- News ). Who Are They? Young and Well-Educated We tried to find hard data on how many immigrants had returned to India and China. No government authority seems to track these numbers. But human resources directors in India and China told us that what was a trickle of returnees a decade ago had become a flood. Job applications from the U.S. had increased tenfold over the last few years, they said. To get an understanding of how the returnees had fared and why they left the U.S., my team at Duke, along with AnnaLee Saxenian of the University of California at Berkeley and Richard Freeman of Harvard University, conducted a survey. Through professional networking site LinkedIn, we tracked down 1,203 Indian and Chinese immigrants who had worked or received education in the U.S. and had returned to their home countries. This research was funded by the Kauffman Foundation. Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain," finds that the vast majority of these returnees were relatively young. The average age was 30 for Indian returnees, and 33 for Chinese. They were highly educated, with degrees in management, technology, or science. Fifty-one percent of the Chinese held master's degrees and 41% had PhDs. Sixty-six percent of the Indians held a master's and 12.1% had PhDs. They were at very top of the educational distribution for these highly educated immigrant groups -- precisely the kind of people who make the greatest contribution to the U.S. economy and to business and job growth. Nearly a third of the Chinese returnees and a fifth of the Indians came to the U.S. on student visas. A fifth of the Chinese and nearly half of the Indians entered on temporary work visas (such as the H-1B). The strongest factor that brought them to the U.S. was professional and educational development opportunities. What They Miss: Family and Friends They found life in the U.S. had many drawbacks. Returnees cited language barriers, missing their family and friends at home, difficulty with cultural assimilation, and care of parents and children as key issues. About a third of the Indians and a fifth of the Chinese said that visas were a strong factor in their decision to return home, but others left for opportunity and to be close to family and friends. And it wasn't just new immigrants who were returning. In fact, 30% of respondents held permanent resident statusor were U.S. citizens. Eighty-seven percent of Chinese and 79% of Indians said a strong factor in their original decision to return home was the growing demand for their skills in their home countries. Their instincts generally proved right. Significant numbers moved up the organization chart. Among Indians the percentage of respondents holding senior management positions increased from 10% in the U.S. to 44% in India, and among Chinese it increased from 9% in the U.S. to 36% in China. Eighty-seven percent of Chinese and 62% of Indians said they had better opportunities for longer-term professional growth in their home countries than in the U.S. Additionally, nearly half were considering launching businesses and said entrepreneurial opportunities were better in their home countries than in the U.S. Friends and family played an equally strong role for 88% of Indians and 77% of Chinese. Care for aging parents was considered by 89% of Indians and 79% of Chinese to be much better in their home countries. Nearly 80% of Indians and 67% of Chinese said family values were better in their home countries. More Options Back Home Immigrants who have arrived at America's shores have always felt lonely and homesick. They had to make big personal sacrifices to provide their children with better opportunities than they had. But they never have had the option to return home. Now they do, and they are leaving. It isn't all rosy back home. Indians complained of traffic and congestion, lack of infrastructure, excessive bureaucracy, and pollution. Chinese complained of pollution, reverse culture shock, inferior education for children, frustration with government bureaucracy, and the quality of health care. Returnees said they were generally making less money in absolute terms, but they also said they enjoyed a higher quality of life. We may not need all these workers in the U.S. during the deepening recession. But we will need them to help us recover from it. Right now, they are taking their skills and ideas back to their home countries and are unlikely to return, barring an extraordinary recruitment effort and major changes to immigration policy. That hardly seems likely given the current political climate. The policy focus now seems to be on doing whatever it takes to retain existing American jobs -- even if it comes at the cost of building a workforce for the future of America. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 04:54:37 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 21:54:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903032054hcd65173ueb4bf441648a0270@mail.gmail.com> Actually, you could transmit various diseases by the up-close act of hugging. And so the Japanese version of this will have the huggers wearing medical face masks! lol Natasha wrote: It is like holding up a sign that says "Life over Death" or "Be Transhuman" or - yes, simply "Extropy". >>> Perhaps the newest addition to the Extropic Principles should be "hug often, when appropriate!" And during transhumanist (if we can still use that word... ; ) ) conventions we can begin each day with everyone hugging the person sitting next to them. John Grigg : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From girindra at isac.gov.in Wed Mar 4 08:20:53 2009 From: girindra at isac.gov.in (G P SINGH) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:50:53 +0530 Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090304081051.B291010C9@dnserns.isac.gov.in> Being a space engineer in general and spacecraft systems engineer in perticuler with experience of two completed big spacecrafts and third one in progress. I am bringing out some technical issues here (Assuming infinite money and reasonable medical or QOL spinoffs) in cannon/gun launch of spacecrafts Whether a spacecraft is launched by surface magentic rail or baloon magnetic rail, the required orbital velocity for a satellite will be around 8-9 Km/S. So how can the accelaration be achieved ? In addition to challenge of material strength which I assume can be solved by use of Nanomaterials and nano process technology. There are additional following challenges in this proposition - a. Fastest levitation train runs at speed of around 15-16 metre/sec. How can the multiplication of 800-900 can come? Normally rails are passive and trains are active device in trains. But here situation is different, we need to have active rails and active spacecraft. b. Point of Keith Henson of giving 1g acceleration... if we assume 1G for about 1000 second then 5000 km is nearing radius of earth , even 1G accelaration can not be given for that much distance because the required power should be there in spacecraft (correct me if i am wrong) or if the power of 50 GW should be there in tunnel/rail then it will resemble nuclear particle accelarator. Presently Normal highest power level of a spacecraft has never gone beyond around 15000W (barring space station) c. How the acceleration will take care of circularity of earth for that which will change the desired orbit after exit even for a smaller mass of 5 ton ? At present Mass of high power satellite of around 10000W will be arounf 4000 Kg. How will even this mass of 4 Ton can be accelerated to achieve any desired orbit by? d. At present satellites are having only one liquid apogee motor of around 500 newton. So we need to accomodate more number of motors to correct the orbit after exit shock. In current configuration of spacecrafts thrusters, LAM, fuel lines and Power supply for propulsion takes lot of weight then mass of payload will reduce. e. Design of satellite of such kind will be complex. If i assume normal ARIANE launch as standard. Then what shall be configuration changes in spacecraft. Most severe shock will come at exit. So worst case design fo 30G shock will change structural design. Its interface with rails should be through magnetic levitation then what will be source of powers inside the tunnel/rails ? And what will be change in design of solar panel & batteries. And big question is that... The payload either infrared observatory or communication repeater or a optional spy camera electronics will interact heavily with magnetic power supply. And such EMI/EMC design of components will be an issue. g. It may appear simple, Access to 100 Kms up in the air from surface will be either by means an elevator ( Aircraft is rules out, helicopter will still work) so +g and -g shocks need to be accounted in design margins. GP -- Girindra Pratap Singh Indian Space Research Organization Department of Space, Government of India Bangalore INDIA From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 23:26:03 2009 From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 18:26:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903032054hcd65173ueb4bf441648a0270@mail.gmail.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903032054hcd65173ueb4bf441648a0270@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <918a899d0903041526i55f07a3ex2fefe760ce6a4615@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:54 PM, John Grigg wrote: > Actually, you could transmit various diseases by the up-close act of > hugging. And so the Japanese version of this will have the huggers wearing > medical face masks! lol > And indeed, some "divine hug" faith-healing whackaloon managed to cause a measles epidemic in Australia recently by just such a method. http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Measles-outbreak-linked-to-Amma-faithful/2006/05/05/1146335903781.html Joseph -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 00:52:26 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:22:26 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Why the Gods are not winning Message-ID: <710b78fc0903041652iadd93b8l460571b2d9b98969@mail.gmail.com> Here's an article from 2007 which I only just found, which has a wonderfully hopeful message about the future of atheism. They talk about the relationship between socio-economic conditions and religiousness. It's an inverse relationship. First world countries trend toward secular. Except of course for one conspicuous outlier: I liked this paragraph: "Rather than religion being an integral part of the American character, the main reason the United States is the only prosperous democracy that retains a high level of religious belief and activity is because we have substandard socio-economic conditions and the highest level of disparity. The other factors widely thought to be driving forces behind mass faith?desire for the social links provided by churches, fear of societal amorality, fear of death, genetic predisposition towards religiosity, etc?are not critical simply because hundreds of millions have freely accepted being nonreligious mortals in a dozen and a half democracies. Such motives and factors can be operative only if socio-economic circumstances are sufficiently poor to sustain mass creationism and religion." But here's the article in full. ====================== WHY THE GODS ARE NOT WINNING by Gregory Paul & Phil Zuckerman http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html A myth is gaining ground. The myth seems plausible enough. The proposition is that after God died in the secular 20th century, He is back in a big way as people around the world again find faith. In 2006 Foreign Policy ran two articles that made similar, yet distinctive claims. In the spring Phillip Longman's "The Return of the Patriarchy" contended that secular folk are reproducing themselves, or failing to reproduce themselves, out of existence as the believers swiftly reproduce via a "process similar to survival of the fittest." In the summer FP followed up with "Why God is Winning" by Samuel Shah and Monica Duffy Toft, who pronounced that the Big Three? Christianity, Islam and Hinduism?are back on the global march as secularism fades into irrelevance. In the fall Foreign Affairs joined the chorus when Walter Russell Mead's God's Country? gave the impression that conservative theism continues to rise in a United States jolted back to the spiritual by 9/11. In American Fascists Chris Hedges warns that hard-core Dominionists are accumulating the power to convert the nation into a fundamentalist theocracy. The actual situation, as is usual in human affairs, much more complex and nuanced, and therefore much more fascinating. Let's start by considering the analytical superficiality that mars the twin articles in Foreign Policy. While Longman proposes that rapid reproduction is the primary agent behind the resurgence of patriarchal faith, Shah and Toft think it is mainly a matter democratic choice in which younger generations reject their parent's secularism. In reality all these claims are well off base. Religion is in serious trouble. The status of faith is especially dire in the west, where the churches face an unprecedented crisis that threatens the existence of organized faith as a viable entity, and there is surprisingly little that can be done to change the circumstances. Shah and Toft cite the World Christian Encyclopedia as supporting a planetary revival because its shows that "at the beginning of the 21st century, a greater portion of the world's population adhered to [Christianity, Islam and Hinduism] in 2000 than a century earlier." They point to a table in the WCE that shows that the largest Christian and largest nonChristian faiths, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam and Hinduism, rose from half to nearly two thirds of the world in the 1900s. But that it is a peculiar choice of sects. If every Mohammedan and Hindu sect large and small is tallied, shouldn't every Orthodox, Coptic and so on be too? Another look at the WCE table shows that all Christians, Muslims and Hindus combined edging up a much more modest 60 to 66% (but see below correction) since the reign of Queen Victoria. What scheme of thought did soar in the 20th century? Although Shah and Toft cite the WCE when it appears to aid their thesis, they seem to have missed key passages near the beginning of the work. The evangelical authors of the WCE lament that no Christian "in 1900 expected the massive defections from Christianity that subsequently took place in Western Europe due to secularism?. and in the Americas due to materialism?. The number of nonreligionists?. throughout the 20th century has skyrocketed from 3.2 million in 1900, to 697 million in 1970, and on to 918 million in AD 2000?. Equally startling has been the meteoritic growth of secularism?. Two immense quasi-religious systems have emerged at the expense of the world's religions: agnosticism?. and atheism?. From a miniscule presence in 1900, a mere 0.2% of the globe, these systems?. are today expanding at the extraordinary rate of 8.5 million new converts each year, and are likely to reach one billion adherents soon. A large percentage of their members are the children, grandchildren or the great-great-grandchildren of persons who in their lifetimes were practicing Christians" (italics added). (The WCE probably understates today's nonreligious. They have Christians constituting 68-94% of nations where surveys indicate that a quarter to half or more are not religious, and they may overestimate Chinese Christians by a factor of two. In that case the nonreligious probably soared past the billion mark already, and the three great faiths total 64% at most.) Far from providing unambiguous evidence of the rise of faith, the devout compliers of the WCE document what they characterize as the spectacular ballooning of secularism by a few hundred-fold! It has no historical match. It dwarfs the widely heralded Mormon climb to 12 million during the same time, even the growth within Protestantism of Pentecostals from nearly nothing to half a billion does not equal it. Yet Longman, and especially Shah and Toft, left readers with the impression that Christianity, Islam and Hinduism are each regaining the international initiative against secularism. Again we can turn to the WCE, whose results are presented in the pie charts (with the above adjustment, and with the proviso that the stats are inevitably approximations). Since 1900 Christians have made up about a third of the global population, and are edging downwards. No growth there. Hindus are coasting at a seventh the total, no significant increase there either even though India adds more people each year than any other nation. The WCE predicts no proportional increase for these faiths by 2050. The flourishing revival of two megareligions whether by democracy, edification, or fecundity is therefore a mirage. Having shrunk by a quarter in the 20th century, Buddhism is predicted to shrink almost as much over the next half century. Once rivaling Christianity, paganism ? whether it be ancient or modern as per New Ageism and Scientology ? has over all contracted by well over half and is expected to continue to dwindle. One Great Faith has risen from one eighth to one fifth of the globe in a hundred years, and is projected to rise to one quarter by 2050. Islam. But education and the vote have little to do with it. Generally impoverished and poorly educated, most Muslims live in nations where democracy is minimalist or absent. Nor are many infidels converting to Allah. Longman was correct on one point; Islam is growing because Muslims are literally having lots of unprotected sex. The absence of a grand revival of Christ, Allah and Vishnu worship via democratic free choice brings us to a point, as important as it is little appreciated ? the chronic inability of religion to recruit new adherents on a consistent, global basis. It is well documented that Christianity has withered dramatically in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. The failure of the faith in the west is regularly denounced by Popes and Protestant leaders. Churches are being converted into libraries, laundromats and pubs. Those who disbelieve in deities typically make up large portions of the population, according to some surveys they make up the majority of citizens in Scandinavia, France and Japan. Evolution is accepted by the majority in all secular nations, up to four in five in some. In his paper "Christianity in Britain, R. I. P." Steve Bruce explains that the recent rise of pagans is not nearly sufficiently to make up for the implosion of the churches, which are in danger of dwindling past the demographic and organizational point of no return. A commission of the Church of England agreed, proposing that little attended Sabbath services be dropped, and concluding that the advent of modern lifestyles "coincides with the demise of Christendom." The church commissioned Making Sense of Generation Y study advised the clergy to "avoid panic." Perhaps that response would be appropriate considering the absence of quantitative evidence of a significant Christian revival in any secularized democracy. God belief is not dead in these nonreligious democracies, but it is on life support. The ardent hopes of C. S. Lewis and John Paul II to reChristianize Europe have abjectly failed. EuroMuslims may become a theological plurality by outnumbering active Christians in a few decades, but that does not mean much in the context of a shrinking Christian minority. In most western nations Muslims are less than one percent to under three. The only exceptions are the Netherlands at five percent, and France at ten, and the native French have the highest birth rate in western Europe. The mass loss of popular faith in the Eurocultures is often waved away as an isolated aberration in a world still infatuated with the gods. After all, who cares what the "old Europe" of France and Sweden is up to? This is a big mistake. Such a thing has never been seen before in history. And where it has happened is critical to the future of faith. Aside from constituting proof of principle that religion is dangerously vulnerable to modernity, that secularism and disbelief do best in nations that are the most democratic, educated and prosperous directly falsifies the Shah and Toft thesis that these factors are the allies of religiosity. But hasn't the loss of faith in old Europe been matched by a great revival in new Europe? In his account of his voyage along the Siberian Lena River, Jeffrey Taylor in River of No Reprieve observed that the locals remain atheistic, and the religious minority seems more nationalistic than devout. This premise is applicable to former KGV officer Putin's embrace of the Russian Orthodox church, which had tight connections with the Czarist secret police. Just a quarter of Russians absolutely believe in God, the portion who say that religion is important in their lives are down in the teens, and irreligion may be continuing to rise in very atheistic eastern Germany and the Czech Republic. Even in Poland, the one eastern bloc nation in which religion played an important role in overturning atheistic communism, just one third consider religion to be very important in their lives, and faith is declining towards the old European norm. It turns out that the "new" Europe is not turning out particularly godly. The Central Kingdom has never been especially religious, became atheistic under communism, and is striving for world dominance via materialistic consumerism. The finding by the Shanghai university poll that religious Chinese lifted from 100 million in the 1960s to 300 million resulted in headlines along the lines of "Poll Finds Surge of Religion Among Chinese." But the 300 million figure is far below the 600 million religious estimated by the World Christian Encyclopedia, and is less than a third of the adult population. Nor should monotheists be particularly comforted. The survey uncovered 40 million Christians, about half the inflated estimate in the WCE, and just 4% of the adult population. Most religious Chinese are Buddhists and Taoists, or worship the likes of the God of Fortune, the Black Dragon and the Dragon King. By the way, The Economist says women are using religion as a way to battle traditional Chinese patriarchy. If the survey is correct that over two thirds of Chinese are not religious then they may approach a billion in China alone, expanding the global total even further. Mass devotion remains strong in most of the 2nd and 3rd world, but even there there is theistic concern. South of our border a quarter to over half the population describe religion as only somewhat important in their lives. Rather than becoming more patriarchal as democracy and education expand, Mexico is liberalizing as progressive forces successfully push laws favoring abortion and gay rights to the vexation of the Roman and evangelical churches. There is even trouble for Islam in its own realm. A third of Turks think religion is not highly important in their lives, and Iranian urban youth have been highly secularized in reaction to the inept corruption of the Mullahs. In Asia 40% of the citizens of booming South Korea don't believe in God, and only a quarter (most evangelical Christians) identify themselves as strongly religious. Doesn't America, the one western nation where two thirds absolutely believe in God, and nine in ten think there is some form of higher power, show that religion can thrive in an advanced democracy? Not necessarily. A decade and a half of sampling finds conservative (thought to be about two thirds to four fifths of the total of) evangelicals and born-agains consistently stuck between a quarter and a third of the population. The majority that considers religion very important in their lives dropped from over two thirds in the 1960s to a bare majority in 1970s and 1980s, and appeared to edge up in the Clinton era. But instead of rising post 9/11 as many predicted, it is slipping again. Those who feel the opposite about religion doubled between the 1960s and 1970s, have been fairly stable since then, but have been edging up in recent years. American opinion on the issue of human evolution from animals has been rock steady, about half agreeing, about half disagreeing, for a quarter century. What has changed is how people view the Bible. In the 1970s nearly four in ten took the testaments literally, just a little over one in ten thought it was a mixture of history, fables, and legends, a three to one ratio in favor of the Biblical view. Since then a persistent trend has seen literalism decline to between a quarter and a third of the population, and skeptics have doubled to nearly one in five. If the trend continues the fableists will equal and then surpass the literalists in a couple of decades. Even the megachurch phenomenon is illusory. A spiritual cross of sports stadiums with theme parks, hi-tech churches are a desperate effort to pull in and satisfy a mass-media jaded audience for whom the old sit in the pews and listen to the standard sermon and sing some old time hymns does not cut it anymore. Rather than boosting church membership, megachurches are merely consolidating it. >From a high of three quarters of the population in the 1930s to 1960s, a gradual, persistent decline has set in, leaving some clerics distressed at the growing abandonment of small churches as the big ones gobble up what is left of the rest. Weekly religious service attendance rose only briefly in the months after 9/11?evidence that the event failed to stem national secularization ? and then lost ground as the Catholic sex scandal damaged church credibility. As few as one in four or five Americans are actually in church on a typical Sunday, only a few percent of them in megachurches. In his Foreign Affairs article Mead noted that conservative Southern Baptists constitute the largest church in the states, and they are among the most evangelical. Mead did not note that a Southern Baptist church release laments that "evangelistically, the denomination is on a path of slow but discernable deterioration." The greatest born again sect is baptizing members at the same absolute yearly rate as they did half a century ago, when the population was half as large, and in the last few years the overall trend has been downwards. Rather than Amerofaith becoming deeply patriarchal as Longman thinks, it is increasingly feminine. Women church goers greatly outnumber men, who find church too dull. Here's the kicker. Children tend to pick up their beliefs from their fathers. So, despite a vibrant evangelical youth cohort, young Americans taken as a whole are the least religious and most culturally tolerant age group in the nation. One group has experienced rapid growth. In the 1940s and 50s 1-2% usually responded no asked if they believe in God, up to 98% said yes. A Harris study specifically designed to arrive at the best current figure found that 9% do not believe in a creator, and 12% are not sure. The over tenfold expansion of Amerorationalism easily outpaces the Mormon and Pentecostal growth rates over the same half century. America's disbelievers atheists now number 30 million, most well educated and higher income, and they far outnumber American Jews, Muslims and Mormons combined. There are many more disbelievers than Southern Baptists, and the god skeptics are getting more recruits than the evangelicals. The rise of American rationalism is based on adult choice?secularists certainly not growing via rapid reproduction. The results can be seen on the bookshelves, as aggressively atheistic books such as Sam Harris' The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, and Daniel C. Dennett's Breaking the Spell, break the mainstream publishing barrier onto the best-sellers lists. Long disparaged as neither moral or American, the growing community is beginning to assert itself as a socio-political force. What is actually happening here and abroad is a great polarization as increasingly anxious and often desperate hard-core believers mount a vigorous counterrevolution via extreme levels of activism to the first emergence of mass apostasy in history. No major religion is expanding its share of the global population by conversion in any circumstances, much less educated democracy. Disbelief in the supernatural alone is able to achieve extraordinary rates of growth by voluntary conversion. Why? It is to be expected that in 2nd and 3rd world nations where wealth is concentrated among an elite few and the masses are impoverished that the great majority cling to the reassurance of faith. Nor is it all that surprising that faith has imploded in most of the west. Every single 1st world nation that is irreligious shares a set of distinctive attributes. These include handgun control, anti-corporal punishment and anti-bullying policies, rehabilitative rather than punitive incarceration, intensive sex education that emphasizes condom use, reduced socio-economic disparity via tax and welfare systems combined with comprehensive health care, increased leisure time that can be dedicated to family needs and stress reduction, and so forth. As a result the great majority enjoy long, safe, comfortable, middle class lives that they can be confident will not be lost due to factors beyond their control. It is hard to lose one's middle class status in Europe, Canada and so forth, and modern medicine is always accessible regardless of income. Nor do these egalitarians culture emphasize the attainment of immense wealth and luxury, so most folks are reasonably satisfied with what they have got. Such circumstances dramatically reduces peoples' need to believe in supernatural forces that protect them from life's calamities, help them get what they don't have, or at least make up for them with the ultimate Club Med of heaven. One of us (Zuckerman) interviewed secular Europeans and verified that the process of secularization is casual; most hardly think about the issue of God, not finding the concept relevant to their contented lives. The result is plain to see. Not a single advanced democracy that enjoys benign, progressive socio-economic conditions retains a high level of popular religiosity. They all go material. It is the great anomaly, the United States, that has long perplexed sociologists. America has a large, well educated middle class that lives in comfort?so why do they still believe in a supernatural creator? Because they are afraid and insecure. Arbitrary dismissal from a long held job, loss of health insurance followed by an extended illness, excessive debt due to the struggle to live like the wealthy; before you know it a typical American family can find itself financially ruined. Overwhelming medical bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy. In part to try to accumulate the wealth needed to try to prevent financial catastrophe, in part to compete in a culture of growing economic disparity with the super rich, the typical American is engaged in a Darwinian, keeping up with the Jones competition in which failure to perform to expectations further raises levels of psychological stress. It is not, therefore, surprising that most look to friendly forces from the beyond to protect them from the pitfalls of a risky American life, and if that fails compensate with a blissful eternal existence. The effect can be more direct. For instance, the absence of universal health care encourages the utilization of faith-based medical charities. The latter, as well intentioned as they are, cannot provide the comprehensive health services that best suppress mortality at all ages. But charities extend the reach of the churches into the secular community, enhancing their ability to influence society and politics, and retain and recruit members. Rather than religion being an integral part of the American character, the main reason the United States is the only prosperous democracy that retains a high level of religious belief and activity is because we have substandard socio-economic conditions and the highest level of disparity. The other factors widely thought to be driving forces behind mass faith?desire for the social links provided by churches, fear of societal amorality, fear of death, genetic predisposition towards religiosity, etc?are not critical simply because hundreds of millions have freely accepted being nonreligious mortals in a dozen and a half democracies. Such motives and factors can be operative only if socio-economic circumstances are sufficiently poor to sustain mass creationism and religion. So much for the common belief that supernatural-based religiosity is the default mode inherent to the human condition. What about the hypothesis that has gained wide currency, that competition between the plethora of churches spawned by the separation of church and state is responsible for America's highly religious population? Australia and New Zealand copied the American separation between church and state in their constitutions, yet they are much more irreligious. Meanwhile the most religious advanced democracies in Europe are those where the Catholic church is, or was, dominant. To put it starkly, the level of popular religion is not a spiritual matter, it is actually the result of social, political and especially economic conditions (please note we are discussing large scale, long term population trends, not individual cases). Mass rejection of the gods invariably blossoms in the context of the equally distributed prosperity and education found in almost all 1st world democracies. There are no exceptions on a national basis. That is why only disbelief has proven able to grow via democratic conversion in the benign environment of education and egalitarian prosperity. Mass faith prospers solely in the context of the comparatively primitive social, economic and educational disparities and poverty still characteristic of the 2nd and 3rd worlds and the US. We can also explain why America is has become increasingly at odds with itself. On one hand the growing level of socio-economic disparity that is leaving an increasing portion of the population behind in the socially Darwinian rat-race is boosting levels of hard-line religiosity in the lower classes. On the other hand freedom from belief in the supernatural is rising among the growing segment that enjoys higher incomes and sophisticated education. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Ted Turner, Richard Branson and Rupert Murdoch are typical upper crust disbelievers. The practical implications are equally breath taking. Every time a nation becomes truly advanced in terms of democratic, egalitarian education and prosperity it loses the faith. It's guaranteed. That is why perceptive theists are justifiably scared. In practical terms their only practical hope is for nations to continue to suffer from socio-economic disparity, poverty and maleducation. That strategy is, of course, neither credible nor desirable. And that is why the secular community should be more encouraged. Skepticism of the transcendent has not swept the planet with the completeness expected by some in the 20th century. Doing so would have required the conversion to atheism of an unattainable 50 million people a year in a world where the great majority chronically lack the high level of science-oriented education, secure prosperity, and democracy that spontaneous disbelief depends upon. The expectation of global atheism was correspondingly na?ve, and will remain so as billions live in, or fear living in, substandard conditions. Which should not comfort theists. Even so, theists are equally na?ve when they dream that faith can retake the entire world. Disbelief now rivals the great faiths in numbers and influence. Never before has religion faced such enormous levels of disbelief, or faced a hazard as powerful as that posed by modernity. How is organized religion going to regain the true, choice-based initiative when only one of them is growing, and it is doing so with reproductive activity rather than by convincing the masses to join in, when no major faith is proving able to grow as they break out of their ancestral lands via mass conversion, and when securely prosperous democracies appear immune to mass devotion? The religious industry simply lacks a reliable stratagem for defeating disbelief in the 21st century. Even though liberal, pro-evolution religions are not at fault for unacceptable social policies, organized faith cannot reform itself by supporting successful secular social arrangements because these actions inadvertently suppress popular religiosity. They are caught in a classic Catch-22. And liberal churches are even less able to thrive in advanced democracies than are their more conservative counterparts, so if churches, temples and mosques become matriarchal by socio-politically liberalizing they risk secularizing themselves into further insignificance. In Commonweal Peter Quinn contends that Stephen Gould, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris have sanitized the social philosophy of Charles Darwin, which was not sufficiently kindly and tolerant to produce "the sole and true foundation for a humanistic society, free of the primitive and dangerous irrationality of religious belief." Aside from the above nontheists never having promoted Darwin's personal world-view as the sole fountain of societal goodness, Quinn is making the even bigger mistake?the same mistake nearly everyone is making?of believing that the contest between popular faith and secularism is an epic struggle of ideas that then determines the quality of societies. But the level and nature of popular faith is really set by economic conditions, and only secular egalitarian prosperous democracies that reject extreme social Darwinism can produce the best practical conditions. Assuming America continues to secularize towards the 1st world norm then what can we expect? The decline in faith-based conservative ideology is predicted to allow the country to adopt the progressive policies that have been proven to work in the rest of the west, and vice-versa. Even Wal-Mart has come out in favor of universal medical coverage as bottom-line busting health care expenditures compel the corporations to turn towards the system that has done so much harm to the churches of Europe. If and when religion declines in the states Darwin's science will automatically benefit enormously as it has in ungodly Europe, but Darwinistic social policies will not fare as well as they have in Christian America. In the end what humanity chooses to believe will be more a matter of economics than of debate, deliberately considered choice, or reproduction. The more national societies that provide financial and physical security to the population, the fewer that will be religiously devout. The more that cannot provide their citizens with these high standards the more that will hope that supernatural forces will alleviate their anxieties. It is probable that there is little that can be done by either side to alter this fundamental pattern. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 01:01:19 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:31:19 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <918a899d0903041526i55f07a3ex2fefe760ce6a4615@mail.gmail.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903032054hcd65173ueb4bf441648a0270@mail.gmail.com> <918a899d0903041526i55f07a3ex2fefe760ce6a4615@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903041701s7f2ab212lac6cb4f050100a9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Joseph Bloch : > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:54 PM, John Grigg > wrote: >> >> Actually, you could transmit various diseases by the up-close act of >> hugging.? And so the Japanese version of this will have the huggers wearing >> medical face masks! lol > > And indeed, some "divine hug" faith-healing whackaloon managed to cause a > measles epidemic in Australia recently by just such a method. > > http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Measles-outbreak-linked-to-Amma-faithful/2006/05/05/1146335903781.html > > Joseph Strictly, the problem is not measles, but stupidity about vaccination (ie: not eradicating the disease entirely). I will make the intolerant observation that the woo subculture, who are attracted to things like spiritual leaders and divine hugs, also tend to be anti-vaccination. When my oldest daughter was very young, she was in a private school with a high woo factor (way too high, going there was a mistake). They had running problems with whooping cough. Really! A word to the wise: do not send your kids to child care / school where lots of the parents don't believe in immunization. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From gunzip at weirdness.com Sun Mar 1 16:26:48 2009 From: gunzip at weirdness.com (Michael Gunzip) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cass Sunstein: Regulation Czar Message-ID: <20090301162648.978B111581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> >> But that business of having all those czars, oy. Agreed. At this point, we need a czar czar, to oversee all those other czars. >> The name "Homeland Security" creeps me out... But then President Bush... Let's not forget that Bush initially opposed the creation of the Department of Homeland Security as creating an unneccessary layer of bureaucracy, and only caved on the issue after significant pressure from the opposition. In fact, the Dems used his opposition to creating DHS against him in a negative ad in 2004: http://www.factcheck.org/dnc_radio_ad_on_terrorism_accurate_mostly.html Life is complicated. The fact that we now have the scarily named "Dept. of Homeland Security" cannot be blamed on Bush alone. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 18:48:26 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:48:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Cass Sunstein: Regulation Czar In-Reply-To: <20090301162648.978B111581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20090301162648.978B111581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/09, Michael Gunzip wrote: > Agreed. At this point, we need a czar czar, to oversee all those other > czars. > Not a problem. I've heard the czar industry is in serious trouble. BillK From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Mar 5 19:03:53 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:03:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Extropy behavior In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903041701s7f2ab212lac6cb4f050100a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <486359.72146.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903032054hcd65173ueb4bf441648a0270@mail.gmail.com> <918a899d0903041526i55f07a3ex2fefe760ce6a4615@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903041701s7f2ab212lac6cb4f050100a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B02219.9030008@libero.it> Il 05/03/2009 2.01, Emlyn ha scritto: > When my oldest daughter was very young, she was in a private school > with a high woo factor (way too high, going there was a mistake). They > had running problems with whooping cough. Really! A word to the wise: > do not send your kids to child care / school where lots of the parents > don't believe in immunization. "Lot" is like 10% or more of unvaccinate childrens. Mirco From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 5 21:53:21 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:53:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Jeff Davis > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:14 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch > > Sometime back I was chatting with spike about various nerd-boy (or > girl) topics, when I touched on the ancient(Verne/Wells?) > idea of space launch by cannon. Spike, (in a manner far too > conventional and dismissive for one of his imagination and > flagrant sense of humor) naysayed the notion, mentioning some > problem (hypersonic acoustic shock, or some such > techno-jargonaut obscurantism)... Jeff I just returned from mopping up the remains of my family's failed agriculture venture, oy. We went bust on it, but fortunately we stopped it before it busted us. {8-| And of course I still have my 9 to 5 which I use to support my farming habit. Your post brings back fond memories from the 1980s when I was doing a bunch of these calculations. I still have those calcs somewhere, for I did my BOTECs in bound notebooks and kept them all. I have some that go back to my college days, so tragically many years ago. > I was not impressed. I > figured if the nose cone was pointy enough, then the > acceleration of the surrounding air molecules could be kept > low enough to get around those difficulties to which spike > and his overqualified "sources" were referring... At the time I mighta mentioned something about hitting max Q (maximum dynamic pressure) at the exit from the barrel. In that case it doesn't much matter how pointy is the nose, for friction with the atmosphere at those velocities will change that shape immediately. After I started working the equations, I found that the projectile actually hits max Q before it reaches the end of the tube, since the tube has air in it. But I had an idea for that. The notion is to put a cap on the end of the tube, then evacuate the tube to about .01 atm, then open the cap just before the projectile gets there. At the time (around 1985 I think because it predated my first mac, and I was doing the calculations on a creaky Commodore with an ancient spreadsheet program) I had a scheme to accelerate air in the barrel ahead of the projectile, hoping to get a couple thousand more meters before reaching max Q. The notion is that the wind blowing ahead of the projectile forms a transition to full shock wave. That was in the days before the web, so information was much harder to find back then. I claim independently thinking of the idea of putting charges ahead of the projectile to push a column of air forward, altho I imagine plenty of amateur rocket scientists have thought of the notion before I did and since then. My model at the time was to find a really high mountain, such as Everest, drill a long straight hole about a meter in diameter and about 10 km long, line it with polished steel for a barrel. The projectile would be about ten meters long, a meter in diameter. There would be intermediate charges along the barrel to keep the pressure high behind the projectile. The barrel would be angled about 45 degrees from horizontal, although a lower angle is better if one can work out a way to do it. As I recall, the atmospheric losses going out of the atmosphere required reaching a muzzle velocity of about 20 km/sec, so the time in the tube was about 1 second, acceleration about 2000 G, mass of the projectile was about 100,000 kg, (it was about 7 cubic meters of alternating layers of enriched uranium and steel, the steel preventing the uranium from forming a critical mass) so the pressure on the back of the projectile needed to be about 3 billion newtons per square meter or 30,000 atmospheres. So at the time I realized it is better if we could drill a much longer tube, but that introduces more complications, since really high mountains often have magma below them. Then there is the problem of the yahoos wanting to climb the tallest mountains, and other yahoos thinking the tallest mountains are sacred, that kinda stuff. These kinds of people would need to be eliminated by some means, or at least the climbing/worshipping memes. Or we could find a really tall mountain that cannot be climbed, and one that everyone considers secular. I looked at hauling the cannon to really high altitudes with balloons. That makes some of the problems simpler, such as reducing the delta vee needed to round out the orbit after the projectile leaves the barrel. But I found it requires one to haul the thing waaaay high up to do much good, which is difficult, and it introduces new difficulties, such as aiming and stabilizing the barrel that is suspended from ballons. Not impossible, but challenging. Of course one can also hoist conventional rockets with balloons, and save a lotta payload by reducing the weight and strength of the payload fairing, and by enabling higher expansion ratio nozzles on the rocket motors, so they are more efficient. Keith has some really interesting notions of using orbiting lasers with ablative propellant to round out the orbits of projectiles. So if one decides to use balloons, as I recall, the rockets ended up scoring better than the big cannon. So the cannon is back down on the ground, and the challenge is seeing how deep the hole can be made. Any reasonable hole requires very high accelerations, so only very robust payloads need apply. The debate back in the 80s caused me to wonder if biology units could be launched if submerged in water. I put a bunch of fish in a thermos bottle and put that in the centrifuge, ran them up to 100 g for ten minutes. All survived. But I concluded they wouldn't survive 2000 g even for a second, because slight differential in tissue density would be harmful or extremely fatal. Turns out, big ground based rockets scored better than the balloon-hoisted rockets, which explains why we keep enduring all the disadvantages of rockets, while we still have not seen balloon-carried rockets, balloon carried cannons or ground-based cannons. ... > Let's get specific. What are the limitations -- boundaries > if you will -- of the gun launch -- or similar > "emerges-from-launch-tube-at-orbital-or-greater velocity" > launch schemes? And what features -- such as the pointy nose > cone -- can > help? In particular, what's the altitude lower bound? Yeah, that's > what I want to know: lowest possible altitude? > > Thoughts? > > Best, Jeff Davis Jeff, I don't know if the previous was helpful, and it is going strictly on old memories. Today is my 20 year service date with Lockheeed, and I know I didn't do much more with these notions after I joined this company, so the 23+ year old memories could be inaccurate. Do let me see if I can find those old BOTECs, although I suspect they may have been moved when we were setting up a room for the arrival of Isaac in 2006. Good chance my old notebooks are in a storage container up at the failed agriculture business in Oregon. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 5 22:44:11 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:44:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Cass Sunstein: Regulation Czar In-Reply-To: References: <20090301162648.978B111581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of BillK > > On 3/1/09, Michael Gunzip wrote: > > Agreed. At this point, we need a czar czar, to oversee all > those other > > czars. > > > Not a problem. > I've heard the czar industry is in serious trouble. > > BillK {8^D Czar industry, haaaahahahahaaa! Thanks BillK, may I use that one? I see the stock market is taking yet another ass whooping today. I haven't sold the tattered remains of my stocks for a reason. I figure that the stimulus bill was hurriedly passed by a panicked congress, even though they were not even given a chance to even read the bill. It was 1071 pages, and the vote was forced the day after the final version was released. No one knows everything that was in it. For this reason, it appears to me that *anyone* who was in any startup or in any capital venture would need to immediately stop everything, to read through the bill, just to see if there is anything in there which would make their venture unprofitable, or would make a different venture more profitable. That's what stopped my family's farm venture. I would now reason that *every* startup and *every* venture will be at least temporarily on hold, if not cancelled outright. That would make the remaining existing companies stronger by killing off potential competition, a bit like the way a forest fire actually helps the biggest trees by only scorching their trunks, while slaying their small competitors, returning the ashes of their remains to the soil. There are at least two of our extended family members and two neighboring families depending upon our venture for employment this summer, helping plant trees and build irrigation infrastructure. These will now will be without a job. The farmer who is currently renting our fields has been doing this kind of work for 47 years. He hinted that he will not be able to rent our fields next year, for he cannot find a crop which would not give him a loss. He has four employees who must be sweating bullets right now. The guys who are grafted our first 4000 trees get to keep our deposit in accordance with the contract, but likely they will not be able to sell the trees, so they will be lucky to break even. The other two tree buyers also decided to cancel their orders, independent of us or each other. I am now charred and smoldering ashes. spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 23:26:19 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:26:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Cass Sunstein: Regulation Czar In-Reply-To: References: <20090301162648.978B111581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 3/5/09, spike wrote: > {8^D Czar industry, haaaahahahahaaa! Thanks BillK, may I use that one? > Sure. It's public domain now. :) > I see the stock market is taking yet another ass whooping today. I haven't > sold the tattered remains of my stocks for a reason. I figure that the > stimulus bill was hurriedly passed by a panicked congress, even though they > were not even given a chance to even read the bill. It was 1071 pages, and > the vote was forced the day after the final version was released. No one > knows everything that was in it. > > I would now reason that *every* startup and *every* venture will be at least > temporarily on hold, if not cancelled outright. That would make the > remaining existing companies stronger by killing off potential competition, > a bit like the way a forest fire actually helps the biggest trees by only > scorching their trunks, while slaying their small competitors, returning the > ashes of their remains to the soil. > Yea, it's a real bad time to be in business. The trouble is that generally customers have almost disappeared. Everybody is worried about clearing their debts first, above all else. It's probably too late to sell your stocks. But there will be false dawns where the market rises 10-15% before collapsing again. If you are alert you could sell into one of these mini-rises. But the general feeling seems to be that western nations could be sailing into never-before-seen circumstances. Businesses have to try to get into depression-proof markets. Entertainment seems good, for one example. Best wishes, BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 5 23:41:36 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 15:41:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal Message-ID: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a religion, we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, criticism of transhumanism could become an international crime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 00:33:15 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:33:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch In-Reply-To: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> References: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> Message-ID: s On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM, spike wrote: snip > Keith has some really interesting notions of using orbiting lasers with > ablative propellant to round out the orbits of projectiles. It's mostly Jordin Kare's work. And while orbital lasers are in the cards eventually, Jordin convinced me that they should stay on the ground where we can get rid of waste heat with a nearby river. The idea is to bounce the lasers from focusing mirrors in GEO. The laser stage is taken above the atmosphere with a reusable rocket. The laser site is placed 45 deg around the world from the launch point so you can get behind the stage and have a long enough acceleration path. The laser beams go straight up and come down on the laser stage as it goes up and accelerates to the east. Keith From russell.rukin at lineone.net Fri Mar 6 08:49:10 2009 From: russell.rukin at lineone.net (Russell Rukin) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:49:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch In-Reply-To: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> References: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> Message-ID: <49B0E386.2030800@lineone.net> > > "My model at the time was to find a really high mountain, such as Everest, > drill a long straight hole about a meter in diameter and about 10 km long, > line it with polished steel for a barrel. The projectile would be about ten > meters long, a meter in diameter. There would be intermediate charges along > the barrel to keep the pressure high behind the projectile. The barrel > would be angled about 45 degrees from horizontal, although a lower angle is > better if one can work out a way to do it." > I also have a notepad full of sketches and (admittedly) far more primitive calculations somewhere like yours. I think I used a very large mountain somewhere in Ethiopia? My'n had two holes. Spoil was used in a vast dropping weight in hole two which was connected to hole one. Air pressure belched the projectile out which used rockets to propel its way to space after its initial velocity started to drop. The dropping weight was winched back up using very high gearing and solar powered engine's/moter's, hence Ethiopia which I thought could do with a space program... Looking back I can see a few flaws in my master plan... Russell R From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 11:46:57 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 22:46:57 +1100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/6 spike : > Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > > When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a religion, we > never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, criticism of > transhumanism could become an international crime. This is disturbing, but the thing about the United Nations is that for the most part governments through their UN delegates behave better collectively than they do individually. For example, no country actually voted against the UN declaration of human rights in 1948, although the Soviet Bloc, South Africa and Saudi Arabia abstained. When a country does refuse to sign or ratify something that almost every other country does alarms are raised as to that country's motives. Of course, making fine-sounding declarations and actually following them are two different things. -- Stathis Papaioannou From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:54:50 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:54:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:46 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/6 spike : >> Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 >> >> When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a religion, we >> never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, criticism of >> transhumanism could become an international crime. That's funny. Of course some countries are not like the US where anything can call itself a religion. > This is disturbing, but the thing about the United Nations is that for > the most part governments through their UN delegates behave better > collectively than they do individually. For example, no country > actually voted against the UN declaration of human rights in 1948, > although the Soviet Bloc, South Africa and Saudi Arabia abstained. > When a country does refuse to sign or ratify something that almost > every other country does alarms are raised as to that country's > motives. Of course, making fine-sounding declarations and actually > following them are two different things. The US never signed the Moon Treaty because the L5 Society opposed it. Keith From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 6 14:58:35 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 06:58:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: <7FA4EED7C382404B8C0EDF19F131970F@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stathis Papaioannou > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 3:47 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal > > 2009/3/6 spike : > > Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > > > > When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a > > religion, we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, > > criticism of transhumanism could become an international crime. > > This is disturbing, but the thing about the United Nations is > that for the most part governments through their UN delegates > behave better collectively than they do individually. For > example, no country actually voted against the UN declaration > of human rights in 1948, although the Soviet Bloc, South > Africa and Saudi Arabia abstained. > When a country does refuse to sign or ratify something that > almost every other country does alarms are raised as to that > country's motives. Of course, making fine-sounding > declarations and actually following them are two different things. > > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 6 15:54:01 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:54:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: <29484F7B4CAA4931B28F31E660CCB419@spike> .... > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > >> > >> When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a > >> religion, we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, > >> criticism of transhumanism could become an international crime. > > That's funny. Of course some countries are not like the US > where anything can call itself a religion. .... Ja! I don't see why I couldn't declare myself a religion. I worship me. I am a regular god of wisdom, a fountain of hilarity. Having the UN declare the law would make it binding on all member nations. > > The US never signed the Moon Treaty because the L5 Society opposed it. > Keith Good work on that, Keith. Can we declare you a religion? I can imagine a certain existing religion that would be worried bigtime. Speaking of which, what happens under such rules when two similar competing religions criticize each other? A shining example is not hard to imagine. spike From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 6 15:55:05 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:55:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] FW: hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal Message-ID: <0B2D0D9AF4C24C45B08B06628457D577@spike> -----Original Message----- From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 7:46 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: RE: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou .... > Subject: Re: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal > > 2009/3/6 spike : > > Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > > > > When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a > > religion, we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, > > criticism of transhumanism could become an international crime. > > This is disturbing, but the thing about the United Nations is that for > the most part governments through their UN delegates behave better > collectively than they do individually... Stathis Papaioannou Depends on how one defines "behave better." Making blasphemy illegal seems like a license for any organization, regardless of how egregious, to have arbitrary legal sanction against it's enemies. We have already seen how a "religion" has used that against one of our own. Imagine any religion being given the authority to do that. I can imagine the radical Presbyterians would want to have a word or two with me for instance. I don't see any legal way to define exactly what is and what is not a religion, and what actually constitutes criticism. spike From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 6 15:45:57 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:45:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou ... > Subject: Re: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal > > 2009/3/6 spike : > > Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > > > > When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a > > religion, we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, > > criticism of transhumanism could become an international crime. > > This is disturbing, but the thing about the United Nations is > that for the most part governments through their UN delegates > behave better collectively than they do individually... Stathis Papaioannou Depends on how one defines "behave better." Making blasphemy illegal seems like a license for any organization, regardless of how egregious, to have arbitrary legal sanction against it's enemies. We have already seen how a "religion" has used that against one of our own. Imagine any religion being given the authority to do that. I can imagine the radical Presbyterians would want to have a word or two with me for instance. I don't see any legal way to define exactly what is and what is not a religion, and what actually constitutes criticism. spike From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 7 00:07:26 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:07:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Word Play References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> Message-ID: <08BFB5603523406385D6F722B1CE9F61@MyComputer> Over the years I've heard many things I thought was amusing, unfortunately only one or two was original with me: ================= Now that you've taken that speed-reading course, you've probably already finished reading this list. I could not fail to disagree with you less. To define recursion, we must first define recursion. If a straight line fit is required, obtain only two data points. If God had meant for us to be naked, we would have been born that way. In English, every word can be verged. Is this true or only clever? 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Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out. The next sentence is true. The previous sentence is false. It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. Twenty per cent of Zero is Better than Nothing. Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you find a rock. -Will Rogers Quantum particles: The dreams that stuff is made of. Never forget what you need to remember. It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression of stupidly than to open it and remove all doubt. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. -George Bernard Shaw Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis. -Ralph Waldo Emerson Black holes suck. Closed Captioned in HEX for Programmers. Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular. Consider it considered! Consistency: The last refuge of the unimaginative DON'T READ THIS!!! Drive Offensively! Floggings will continue until morale improves. 186000 miles a second: it's not just a good idea, it's the law! Hard Work never killed anyone, but why chance it? I have NOT lost my mind, it's here on disk somewhere... Moderation in everything, including moderation. I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. I'll never forget what's-his-name. If you can't say it in 50 characters, then don't b I'm more humble than you are! If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. Illiterate? Write for information! Is it ok to panic now? It's not a bug, it's a feature. Life is the ultimate IQ test. Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math. Life would be easier if I had God's source code. Martyrdom is the oldest way of achieving fame without ability. Most of us don't sell out because nobody wants to buy. Most people work just hard enough not to get fired and get paid just enough money not to quit. Murder is a crime. Describing murder is not. Sex is not a crime. Describing sex is. My greatest fear is that one of the candidates will win. Is Life is based on a true story? Never let your willpower get the best of you. Advice to doctors: Never say, "Oops!"; always say "Ah, interesting!" Never underestimate the power of a platitude. 93.7% of all statistics are made up. One doesn't need to eat the entire egg to know it is bad. Ninety percent of the people in any group think they're in the top ten percent. No matter where you go, there you are. I know of no law of logic that demands every event have a cause. Things like that could give hypocrisy a bad name. Sincerity is a vastly overrated virtue. Not many people realize just how well known I am. Oh no, not another learning experience! On a scale of 1 to 10, 4 is about a 7. One picture had better be worth a thousand words, it takes up a lot more disk space. Only fools are certain; it takes wisdom to be confused. Palindrome isn't one. People who are late are happier than those who have to wait for them. People who think they know everything are the easiest to fool. Physics and law enforcement: If it weren't for them, I'd be unstoppable. Physics is not a religion. If it were, we'd have a much easier time raising money. REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q) Rebooting your brain can be tricky. Recent polls reveal that some people have never been polled. Right theory, wrong universe. Science seeks to make theories that are so beautiful that Nature is flattered and acquiesces. Strip mining prevents forest fires! Sometimes I feel like a figment of my own imagination. Sometimes the only solution is to find a new problem. Sometimes the truth can be so unnecessary. A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking. Man is certainly stark mad. He can't make a worm but he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne A little greed can get you lots of stuff. A little inaccuracy saves tons of explanation. All generalizations are false. Always remember that you are unique, just like everyone else. Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation, or creed. - Bertrand Russell Most people would sooner die than think; in fact they do so. - Bertrand Russell I'm not afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens. - Woody Allen Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow. - Oscar Wild Cabbage: A vegetable about as large and wise as a man's head. - Ambrose Bierce Egotist: A person more interested in himself than me. - Ambrose Bierce Don't be humble. You're not that great. - Golda Meir Wise men make proverbs but fools repeat them. There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it. - Cicero Tell the truth and run. Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn. One murder makes a villain, a million murders makes a hero. Only the mediocre are always at their best. Why is there only one anti trust division? I always wanted to be a procrastinator, never got around to it. If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. I'm not breaking the rules, I'm just testing their elasticity. I'm not even going to ignore that. Is "tired old cliche" one? It would be nice if entropy could be used for something constructive. I've told you MILLIONS of times, don't exaggerate! God not only plays dice He sometimes throws them where they can't be seen. You can't frighten me, I'm a coward, I'm always scared. Your idea is crazy but nor crazy enough to be true. Neils Bohr Anyone who is not shocked by quantum mechanics does not understand it. Neils Bohr You are not thinking you are mealy being logical. Bohr to Einstein I think it's safe to say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. Richard Feynman The great thing about Entropy is that it requires no maintenance. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. The Bill of Rights goes too far, it should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law." The hardest thing about time travel is the grammar. The Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. The universe does not have laws -- it has habits. And habits can be broken. The Universe is a big place . . . perhaps the biggest. Predicting is hard, especially the future. The weather is here. Wish you were beautiful. This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -Wolfgang Pauli War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left. Wasting time is an important part of living. We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are. What color is a chameleon on a mirror? What's another word for "thesaurus?" When ideas fail, words come in very handy. When you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend. Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? Writing about music is like dancing about architecture. Writing is easy. All you have to do is cross out all the wrong words. --Mark Twain Man is the only animal who blushes, or needs to. - Mark Twain Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. - Mark Twain I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know. - Mark Twain Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. - Mark Twain Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -Mark Twain Wagner's music is better than it sounds. It takes about ten years to get used to how old you are. I was born in Australia because my mother wanted to be near me. God was satisfied with his own work and that is fatal. -Samuel Butler Why attack God? He may be as miserable as we are. -Erik Satie Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? - Jules Feiffer I've tried relaxing but I feel more comfortable tense. You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. -Al Capone Vote early, vote often. -Al Capone You can't be a figment of my imagination, I'd have done a better job. You can't have everything. Where would you put it? You could be replaced by an infinite number of monkeys. You never know until you find out. Nothing is difficult if you know how. You're not as real as you think you are. You're not right. You just SOUND right. Of course that's a worst case scenario, the effect could be much more localized and just destroy the galaxy. What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind. Time is just one damn thing after another. Why is there something rather than nothing? A good scapegoat is almost as good as a solution. All Extremists should be shot! All that glitters has a high refractive index. All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand. Ambivalent? Well, yes and no. Whose cruel idea was it to put an S in the word Lisp? Avoid unnecessary, inessential and needless repetition and redundancy. I want to be a rebel just like everybody else. In religion everything that is not mandatory is forbidden. Heisenberg slept here, I think. Help wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply. I intend to live forever -- so far, so good! I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize. If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat? If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. Inertia makes the world go round. It's my patriotic duty to conserve energy so I do, I conserve angular momentum too. Individualists of the world, UNITE! It is bad luck to be superstitious. Life is sexually transmitted. Why are there 5 syllables in the word monosyllabic? Plan to be spontaneous tomorrow. Things are not only stranger than we think but stranger than we can think. A camel is a horse designed by a committee. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who's been drafted. The good thing about being wrong is the joy it brings to others. People who love sausage and respect the law should never watch either of them being made. If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. - Carl Sagan Entropy: Not just a fad, it's the future! A vibration is a motion that can't make up its mind which way it wants to go. It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy. The Three Laws Of Thermodynamics: You can't win, you can't break even, you can't get out of the game. Particle physicists can never hold a meeting, whenever they decide on a place they can't agree on a time. A red sign on the door of a physics professor: 'If this sign is blue, you're going too fast.' Little Johnny was a scientist. Little Johnny is no more. For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. If the phone doesn't ring it's me. Most of our future lies ahead. How can there be self-help GROUPS? Where do forest rangers go to 'get away from it all?' If you're in hell and you're mad at someone, where do you tell them to go? Practice makes perfect, but if nobody's perfect, why practice? If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons? Why Do kamikaze pilots wear helmets? Why is it considered necessary to nail down the lid of a coffin? How can someone draw a blank? When sign makers go on strike, is anything written on their signs? Where did Webster look up the definitions when he wrote his book? What the heck is a near-miss? If you nearly miss something, don't you hit it? How do you get off a non-stop flight? If I'm here on earth to help others, what are the others here for? Why does bottled water have an expiration date? We have to believe in free will. We have no choice. An eternity is very, very long time, especially towards the end. The meaning of life is to give life meaning. Agnostic Prayer: Oh God if there is a God save my soul if I have a soul. To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research. Define the Universe and give three examples. I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality by not dying. - Woody Allen Ever notice that 'What the hell' is always the right decision? - Marilyn Monroe When I was born I was so surprised I couldn't talk for a year and a half. - Gracie Allen Sincerity is the key. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - George Burns A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it. - Oscar Wilde Only the shallow know themselves. - Oscar Wilde I no longer wish to belong to the kind of club that accepts people like me as members" - Groucho Marx I am not a vegetarian because I love animals. I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. - A. Whitney Brown Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. - Napoleon Bonaparte Glory is fleeting but obscurity is forever. - Napoleon Bonaparte Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein I'm not confused, I'm well mixed. -Robert Frost As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance. - John Wheeler God is real... unless declared an integer. We all have the strength to endure the misfortunes of others. A good deed never goes unpunished. - Gore Vidal There is no problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise. - Gore Vidal Never have children, only grandchildren. - Gore Vidal Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little. - Gore Vidal Though I am not naturally honest I am so sometimes by chance. - William Shakespeare The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. - William Shakespeare I wish people who have trouble communicating would just shut up. -Tom Lehrer Toots Shor's restaurant is so crowed nobody goes there anymore. - Yogi Berra I really didn't say everything I said. -Yogi Berra I don't care what's written about me as long as it isn't true. - Dorothy Parker I am a deeply superficial person. -Andy Warhol If Jesus was Jewish, how come he has a Mexican name? Every generation laughs at the old fashions but religiously follows the new. -Henry David Thoreau Thank God men cannot as yet fly and lay waste the sky as well as the earth! -Henry David Thoreau Men have become tools of their tools. -Henry David Thoreau The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. -George Patton Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union. -Joseph Stalin The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets. John D Rockefeller There will be a rain dance Friday, weather permitting. -George Carlin Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps. -Emo Philips No more good must be attempted than the public can bear. -Thomas Jefferson A politician is a man who approaches every problem with an open mouth. -Adlai Stevenson If Roosevelt were alive today he's turn over in his grave. -Samuel Goldwin You can be sincere and still be stupid. Prejudices save time. Voters want a fraud they can believe in. Man was predestined to have free will. Reality is a collective hunch. Everything changes but the avant garde. Never miss a good chance to shut up. Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose. The world is run by C students. A productive drunk is the bane of moralists. University politics is vicious precisely because the stakes are so small. -Henry Kissinger Ninety percent of politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. -Henry Kissinger The nice thing about being a celebrity is that if you bore people they think it's their fault. -Henry Kissinger Ninety percent of everything is crap. -Theodore Sturgeon Nonviolence is fine as long as it works. -Malcolm X If I had more time I would write a shorter letter. -Blaise Pascal Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand. There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. Hope is the feeling you have that the feeling you have isn't permanent. You can't measure time in days the same way you can measure money in dollars because every day is different. "Shut up" he explained. -Ring Lardner "Hello" he lied. What is true is what I can't help believing. -Oliver Wendell Holmes I was probably the only revolutionary ever referred to as "cute". -Abbie Hoffman I don't trust him. We're friends. -Bertolt Brecht Is sloppiness in speech caused by ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care. -William Safire If this is coffee please bring me some tea; but if this is tea please bring me some coffee. -Abraham Lincoln Folks that have no vices have very few virtues. -Abraham Lincoln Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names. -John F Kennedy Coincidences are spiritual puns. -G K Chesterton A bore is someone who, when you ask him how he is, tells you. Plato was a bore. -Friedrich Nietzsche Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal. -Leo Tolstoy Tolstoy's book are loose baggy monsters. -Henry James Henry James writes fiction as if it were a painful duty. -Oscar Wilde If you want to look young and thin hang around old fat people. There are very few people who don't become more interesting when they stop talking. It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Thank you for sending me a copy of your book. I'll waste no time reading it. I have read your book and much like it. When in doubt have two guys come through the door with guns. -Raymond Chandler Anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung. -Voltaire Originality is the art of concealing your sources. Use an accordion, go to jail, that's the law! Suicide is the most sincere form of self criticism. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. He's as sharp as a beach ball. She's as shapely as a sack full of door knobs. I once heard the voice of God. It said "Vrrrrmmmmm." Unless it was just a lawn mower. My neighbor has a circular driveway... He can't get out. I'm writing an unauthorized autobiography. I bought some powdered water, but I didn't know what to add. I have a map of the united states in it's original size, one mile equals one mile. I bought a house, on a one-way dead-end road; I don't know how I got there. There was a power outage at a department store yesterday, twenty people were trapped on the escalators. I bought some used paint. It was in the shape of a house. My friend has a baby. I'm writing down all the noises he makes so later I can ask him what he meant. I'm so tired...I was up all night trying to round off infinity. Irrationality is the square root of all evil. At the last costume party I didn't go to, I went as the Invisible Man. Honk if your horn is broken. I like rarely used cliches. Before I begin speaking, there is something I would like to say. Half the lies they tell about me are true. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry is called John. Having lost sight of our goal, we must redouble our efforts! This species has always been extinct. Monism is the theory that anything less than everything is nothing. Authorized parking is forbidden! A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless. Every once in a while it never stops raining. What is the question that contains the word cantaloupe for no apparent reason? The Universe may be as great as they say, but it wouldn't be missed if it didn't exist. If somebody loves you, love them back unconditionally. Break every rule. Computers are like lynxes in the sense that I cannot think of a suitable analogy for either of them right now. All true mathematical equations are tautologies. I don't think I'm not sure but I'm not certain. I think I don't remember. What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our mode of questioning. - Werner Heisenberg Every word or concept, clear as it may seem to be, has only a limited range of applicability.- Werner Heisenberg Real is what can be measured.- Max Planck The microscope can see things the naked eye cannot, but the reverse is equally true. So then who created god? Chastity is not heritable. Chastity is no more a virtue than malnutrition. -Alex Comfort Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's? -Friedrich Nietzsche O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet. -St. Augustine The reason lightning never strikes twice in the same place is that the same place isn't there the second time. Silence is argument carried on by other means. - Ghe Guevara Never jump on a man unless he's down. Before they made him they broke the mold. The average person thinks he isn't. He had a God given killer instinct. Have a nice day. Thank you but I have other plans. SELF REFERENCE Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. Yes, but what if this weren't a rhetorical question? This sentense contains exactly three erors. "Playing with the use-mention distinction" isn't "everything in life, you know". In order to make sense of "this sentence", you will have to ignore the quotes in "it". "Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. Disobey this command. I am the thought you are now thinking. This inert sentence is my body, but my soul is alive, dancing in the sparks of your brain. Do you think anybody has ever had precisely this thought before? And you up there -- are you the person writing me, or the person reading me? As long as you are not reading me, the fourth word of this sentence has no referent. Thit sentence is not self-referential because "thit" is not a word. I had to translate this sentence into English because I could not read the original Sanskrit. What would this sentence be like if it were not self-referential? What would this sentence be like if pi were 3? This sentence is not about itself, but about whether it is about itself. because I didn't think of a good beginning for it. I have nothing to allude to, and I am alluding to it. This sentence will end before you can say "This sentence will end before you can say Does this sentence make you think of dancing midget nazis? I'll tell you how do you keep a reader in suspense This is not a self-referential sentence. Has eighteen letters. This sentence refers to every sentence that does not refer to itself. If the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence wouldn't be false. In this sentence, the concluding three words "were left out". Although this sentence begins with the word "because", it is false. When you're not looking at it, this sentence is in Spanish. No article on self-reference would be complete without including a good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. PALINDROMES Stressed? No tips? Spit on desserts! A man, a plan, a canal: Panama! Did I draw Della too tall, Edward? I did? Do geese see god? Dogma: I am God. Evade me, Dave. Dennis sinned. "Do nine men interpret?" "Nine men," I nod. Evil I did dwell, lewd did I live. Go hang a salami, I'm a lasagna hog. Goddam mad dog! Let O'Hara gain an inn in a Niagara hotel Madam in Eden, I'm Adam. Mr. Owl ate my metal worm. Never odd or even. Murder for a jar of red rum. Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas! No, it is open on one position. Must sell at tallest sum. Sis, ask Costner to not rent socks "as is"! Sit on a potato pan, Otis. Poor Dan is in a droop. Rise, Sir Lapdog! Revolt, lover! God, pal, rise, sir! So many dynamos. Step on no pets. Straw? No, too stupid a fad; I put soot on warts. Was it a car or a cat I saw? Yawn a more Roman way! Yawn--Madonna fan? No damn way! ANAGRAMS a decimal point = I'm a dot in place astronomer = moon starer circumstantial evidence = can ruin a selected victim desperation = a rope ends it dormitory = dirty room President Clinton of the USA = to copulate he finds interns Princess Diana = end is a car spin Ronald Wilson Reagan = Insane Anglo Warlord Victoria, England's Queen = governs a nice quiet land mother-in-law = woman Hitler parishioners = I hire parsons schoolmaster = the classroom funeral = real fun the Morse code = here come dots the earthquakes = that queer shake Alec Guinness = genuine class two plus eleven =one plus twelve POEMS UNCERTAINTY A Quantum Mechanic's vacation Left his colleagues in dire consternation Though tests had shown His speed was well known His position was pure speculation Miss. Bright There was a young lady named Bright Who traveled much faster than light She left one day In a relative way And returned the previous night From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 01:40:10 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:40:10 +1100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/7 spike : > Depends on how one defines "behave better." ?Making blasphemy illegal seems > like a license for any organization, regardless of how egregious, to have > arbitrary legal sanction against it's enemies. ?We have already seen how a > "religion" has used that against one of our own. ?Imagine any religion being > given the authority to do that. ?I can imagine the radical Presbyterians > would want to have a word or two with me for instance. ?I don't see any > legal way to define exactly what is and what is not a religion, and what > actually constitutes criticism. I don't agree with the UN making blasphemy illegal, but the UN is unlikely to pass a motion proposing that blasphemers have their tongue cut out, for example, while an individual member state conceivably might do so. I would feel safer if the UN had the power to veto legislation that my government passed which the rest of the world considered a heinous crime, even though the human rights record of most of the voting nations is probably worse than that of mine. -- Stathis Papaioannou From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 02:48:33 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:48:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch In-Reply-To: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> References: <973CE55857424CFDB5D83BE84E1BFC5D@spike> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM, spike wrote: > Your post brings back fond memories from the 1980s when I was doing a bunch > of these calculations. >> ?I figured if the nose cone was pointy enough, then the >> acceleration of the surrounding air molecules could be kept >> low enough to get around those difficulties > At the time I mighta mentioned something about hitting max Q (maximum > dynamic pressure) at the exit from the barrel. >I found that the projectile hits max Q before it reaches the end of the tube,... > ?But I had an idea...put a cap on the end of > the tube, then evacuate the tube to about .01 atm, then open the cap just > before the projectile gets there. To the extent that I dealt with this issue, I applied a similar solution. A concave foil seal over the tube end, as thin as possible, to be pierced by the "pointy" end as the vehicle exits the tube. However, to avoid talking at cross purposes, let me specify more of the details of my proposed launch system. First, I dispensed with the gun notion almost immediately, retaining only the tube, and my tube was derived from a 1965 Scientific American article (August, I think) about an "advanced" (back then) transport system employing trains in evacuated tubes. Loved that article. Have spent many, many hours in a blissful reverie musing thereon. Anyway, the tube, connects Asia to N & S America, runs along north of the equator and is dual use (if possible) as terrestrial transport and space launch. Starting as far west as necessary to allow both human-tolerable levels of acceleration and reduced power requirements, the space vehicle would accelerate eastward, and at some point be shunted from the terrestrial transport tube into the leave-the-planet tube, the end of which would be elevated to the appropriate altitude. Appropriate here means as low as possible in order to minimize the size of the elevating structure, which of course is mega big, but high enough to reduce the maximum dynamic pressure to a managable level. > Jeff, I don't know if the previous was helpful... It was fun, but now it's time to move on. The mountain method and the space pier are both compression structures. I'd like you all to consider an inflated, ie tension, structure, like a giant flexible plastic dome. One can easily see how such a dome, air tight and its edge anchored to the ground will have its apex way up high. Make the dome big enough, and the apex starts to get waaaay up there. You see where this is going. The exact configuration is yours to ponder. I use a dome in this example to make the principle as clear and simple as possible. My first notion was a bit more complex: an axially-bisected half-cone, lying in a west to east orientation, flat on the plane of axial bisect, with the bottom end of the cone capped by half a dome. The dorsal spine of the cone provides the ramp for the launch tube. There are questions in regard to this design which I cannot answer, and many that I cannot see. You know, "The unknown unknowns." Perhaps you all would enjoy fiddling with this. Some of my thoughts: I believe that the tensile strength required for the cone material is easily within reach of conventional materials. Trade winds can inflate the structure. What will it take for the structure to withstand the weather? And how will so large a structure in the eastern Pacific effect the weather? In light of decrease in gas pressure with altitude can the stucture as envisioned be inflated to launch altitude? If not, can the problem be solved by a revised design with multiple separate compartments piggy-backed on one another? I think that's enough for y'all to chew on for a while(or dismiss as silly). As for me, I'm retired and have plenty of time to devote to such musings. Hope you're all doing well. Best, Jeff Davis "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller From dagonweb at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 08:21:33 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:21:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> Message-ID: It's saddening, but this will cause the disappearance of the UN and the emergence of a league of democratic nations. Unfortunately - what if this league requires the US becomes a full democracy first? 2009/3/7 Stathis Papaioannou > 2009/3/7 spike : > > > Depends on how one defines "behave better." Making blasphemy illegal > seems > > like a license for any organization, regardless of how egregious, to have > > arbitrary legal sanction against it's enemies. We have already seen how > a > > "religion" has used that against one of our own. Imagine any religion > being > > given the authority to do that. I can imagine the radical Presbyterians > > would want to have a word or two with me for instance. I don't see any > > legal way to define exactly what is and what is not a religion, and what > > actually constitutes criticism. > > I don't agree with the UN making blasphemy illegal, but the UN is > unlikely to pass a motion proposing that blasphemers have their tongue > cut out, for example, while an individual member state conceivably > might do so. I would feel safer if the UN had the power to veto > legislation that my government passed which the rest of the world > considered a heinous crime, even though the human rights record of > most of the voting nations is probably worse than that of mine. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- I said NO SIGNATURE !!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From estropico at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:04:14 2009 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 15:04:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: One foot in the future. Attaining the 10, 000+ year lifespan you always wanted? Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90903070704p3df2bdc4r21cc447cbee895fd@mail.gmail.com> One foot in the future. Attaining the 10,000+ year lifespan you always wanted? Saturday 21st March, 2pm-4pm. Venue: Room 403, 4th floor (via main lift), Main Building, Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX. The event is free and everyone's welcome. Dr Richard Faragher, Reader in Gerontology, School of Pharmacy & Biomolecular Sciences, University of Brighton, will review the ageing process across the animal kingdom together with the latest scientific insights into how it may operate. The lecture will also review promising avenues for translation into practice over the next few years, and current barriers to progress in ageing research will be considered. About the speaker: Richard Faragher read Biochemistry at Imperial College, London, and undertook doctoral studies at the University of Sussex. His primary research interest is the relationship between replicative senescence and organismal ageing. In 2005, he became the first ever scientist to receive a Help the Aged award for his championship of research for older people. From 2004-2008 Dr Faragher was Co-director of the BBSRC EPSRC-SPARC programme, a cross-disciplinary research network designed to build national capacity in ageing research. He currently serves on the Research Advisory Council of the Charity Research Into Ageing. Pre-meeting and post-meeting activities: Why not join some of the UKTA regulars for drinks and/or a light lunch beforehand, any time after 12.30pm, in The Marlborough Arms, 36 Torrington Place, London WC1E 7HJ? To find us, look out for a table displaying a copy of Aubrey de Grey's book "Ending Aging". For those able to stay after the meeting, discussion is likely to continue in one of the pubs near Birkbeck College. --- UK Transhumanist Association: http://www.transhumanist.org.uk/ The ExtroBritannia Blog: http://extrobritannia.blogspot.com/ Our mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia/ From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Mar 7 19:59:03 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:59:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> Message-ID: <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Il 06/03/2009 0.41, spike ha scritto: > Hitchins is about 4.5 minutes in, so you might want to fast forward. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-qdC5zYd4 > When we were talking about those who consider transhumanism a religion, > we never dealt with the possibility that if it were so, criticism of > transhumanism could become an international crime. Will this crime be prosecuted by governments? If it will be so, we can be sure some crimes will be prosecuted first and others will be prosecuted after. Criticism on transhumanism will be prosecuted last. Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 12:41:00 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:41:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903080541j56d0ab64we2056af9cddc4474@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Dagon Gmail wrote: > It's saddening, but this will cause the disappearance of the UN and the > emergence of a > league of democratic nations. Why, I think mankind would comfortably survive such an occurrence... :-) > Unfortunately - what if this league requires the US becomes a full democracy > first? Or if simply it were not taking for granted that the US would be welcome in its ranks? :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 12:43:40 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:43:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903080543xff95042i8b08b9cfa5f9e5a@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/7 spike : > I would feel safer if the UN had the power to veto > legislation that my government passed which the rest of the world > considered a heinous crime, even though the human rights record of > most of the voting nations is probably worse than that of mine. In fact, I would actively support armed resistance by my government to the enforcement of such ONU's measures even if I did not agree with the merits thereof. And I think that Washington or Jefferson, were they alive, would be on my side... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From dagonweb at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 15:27:51 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:27:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <580930c20903080541j56d0ab64we2056af9cddc4474@mail.gmail.com> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <35E06240F7AF4D6FA97302C609095EDB@spike> <580930c20903080541j56d0ab64we2056af9cddc4474@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Or if simply it were not taking for granted that the US would be > welcome in its ranks? :-) I for one would pose questions about the level of democratic accountability of the US, given the slightly ..."odd"... turn of events the last 8 years. Not everyone agrees, and my opinion is rather marginal, but I think there are objective causes to look at alleged quality of democratic processes in the US. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfj.eav at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:38:11 2009 From: mfj.eav at gmail.com (Morris Johnson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:38:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "spike" Re: question re "honkin' big cannon" space launch Message-ID: <61c8738e0903080938s541abffem50e1ac2e6b381f3c@mail.gmail.com> Just another off the wall addition to the cannon application. Perhaps some future technology could surround a cryogenically stored human with a dewar of liquid hydrogen of sufficient quantity and sheath the projectile with material capable of surviving exit of the atmosphere. If one wanted a low cost to transport people to mars perhaps that combined with mars orbital capture and reanimation night be a slightly wacky but very cheap way to do this. It might be asking too much of technology to shoot the projectile so accurately that a similar reverse cannon capture device on mars surface could make the catch on the martian surface. This is a really whacked out idea in today's world. As an engineering problem perhaps someone might take it as a challenge and perhaps add it to the possibilities for low cost space travel???? -- LIFESPAN PHARMA Inc. Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. SW34-01-16-w2nd meridian 306-447-4944 701-240-9411 Mission: To Preserve, Protect and Enhance Lifespan Plant-based Natural-health Bio-product Bio-pharmaceuticals @ hempforhorses.com http://www.angelfire.com/on4/extropian-lifespan http://www.4XtraLifespans.bravehost.com megao at sasktel.net,mfj.eav at gmail.com extropian.pharmer at gmail.com To ask to be my facebook friend: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=1276717946 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 8 23:46:21 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:46:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics Message-ID: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> The evil Israelis have managed to overcome the laws of nature in their warfare. They have invented a bomb which causes shrapnel that severs limbs and somehow cauterizes the resulting wounds, made a bomb which causes buildings to mysteriously implode, and even invented a sinister particle weapon which causes objects and people to be vaporized without a trace! Perhaps it uses antimatter. Or perhaps the Martians are participating on the Israeli side! I wouldn't ordinarily site such silliness, except that it is being promoted by the formerly prestigious British medical journal the Lancet: http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1051 &CategoryId=32 Heavy Bombs The use of DIME (dense inert material explosives) were evident, though it is unsure whether depleted uranium were used in the south. In the civilian areas, surviving patients were found to have limbs truncated by DIME, since the stumps apart from being characteristically cut off in guillotine fashion also fail to bleed. Bomb casing and shrapnel are extremely heavy. Fuel Air Explosives Bunker busters and implosion bombs have been used . There are buildings especially the 8 storey Science and Technology Building of the Islamic University of Gaza which had been reduced to a pile of rubble no higher than 5-6 feet. Silent Bombs People in Gaza described a silent bomb which is extremely destructive. The bomb arrives as a silent projectile at most with a whistling sound and creates a large area where all objects and living things are vaporized with minimal trace. We are unable to fit this into conventional weapons but the possibility of new particle weapons being tested should be suspected... Shame on this formerly prestigious medical journal. These are medical doctors, so there is no excuse. They have enough brains to recognize obvious nonsense. Shameful. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Mon Mar 9 01:28:34 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 18:28:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> Message-ID: <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Before speaking critically of the Lancet everyone should be aware of the following: 1. The URL given is for a webpage that is not The Lancet but is rather claiming The Lancet as a source. 2. The URL given is for a webpage which has a link listed as "Source". If you go to that "Source" link you will find that you are not at the journal The Lancet but at a blog site. Further you will find the original blog post has been removed. See: http://www.thelancetglobalhealthnetwork.com/archives/608 Disclaimer: Please do not interpret my comments to indicate that I reject all reports from Gaza or that I condone the actions of any specific groups or countries in that region. On Sun, 2009-03-08 at 16:46 -0700, spike wrote: > > > The evil Israelis have managed to overcome the laws of nature in their > warfare. They have invented a bomb which causes shrapnel that severs > limbs and somehow cauterizes the resulting wounds, made a bomb which > causes buildings to mysteriously implode, and even invented a sinister > particle weapon which causes objects and people to be vaporized > without a trace! Perhaps it uses antimatter. Or perhaps the Martians > are participating on the Israeli side! > > I wouldn't ordinarily site such silliness, except that it is being > promoted by the formerly prestigious British medical journal the > Lancet: > > http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1051&CategoryId=32 > > Heavy Bombs > > The use of DIME (dense inert material explosives) were evident, though > it is unsure whether depleted uranium were used in the south. In the > civilian areas, surviving patients were found to have limbs truncated > by DIME, since the stumps apart from being characteristically cut off > in guillotine fashion also fail to bleed. Bomb casing and shrapnel are > extremely heavy. > > Fuel Air Explosives > > Bunker busters and implosion bombs have been used . There are > buildings especially the 8 storey Science and Technology Building of > the Islamic University of Gaza which had been reduced to a pile of > rubble no higher than 5-6 feet. > > Silent Bombs > > People in Gaza described a silent bomb which is extremely destructive. > The bomb arrives as a silent projectile at most with a whistling sound > and creates a large area where all objects and living things are > vaporized with minimal trace. We are unable to fit this into > conventional weapons but the possibility of new particle weapons being > tested should be suspected... > > > > Shame on this formerly prestigious medical journal. These are medical > doctors, so there is no excuse. They have enough brains to recognize > obvious nonsense. Shameful. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 02:39:41 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 19:39:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Recession now affecting time itself; one hour lost Sunday Message-ID: <2d6187670903081939l3fe4d504ta32723e7493cac06@mail.gmail.com> And here we thought things could not get worse...John ; ) http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Recession_now_affecting_time_itself%3B_one_hour_lost_Sunday *WASHINGTON, DC* -- New data unveiled by economists over the weekend shows that the current recession is even worse than thus-far anticipated. The numbers show that the far-reaching effects of the downturn have spread beyond just stocks, housing, and the financial sector, and are now affecting the time-space continuum itself. A study conducted by the Treasury Department proves that precisely one hour of time has been lost on Sunday due to the recession. "*Housing prices are falling, the Dow is dropping, and now we're literally losing hours of time*," commented a government official. The situation was deemed so critical that President Obamawas awakened at 3 a.m. on Sunday to be told of the news. Anonymous White House sources revealed that the President turned pale when advisers told him that "*the hour between* *2 a.m. and 3 a.m. simply disappeared*." Furthermore, Federal Reserve Chief Ben Bernanke warned there is nothing more his agency can do to try to prevent further time loss because the prime interest rate is already at 0%. Economists warn that the time loss could cause a downward spiral that will further weaken the economy. "*With only 23* *hours in the day, there is less that can be produced, and less time for consumers to spend money*," explained Dr. Hanke of the Time-space Economy Think Tank, adding that "*a higher rate of unemployment and a lower GDP will inevitably lead* *to even more hours being lost*." One piece of good news buried in the dire report is that so far it looks like only the United Stateswas affected by the time loss. " *Thankfully Europe is still holding on to a 24 hour day, but statistical models suggest it won't be for long*." Prime Minister Gordon Brown of Great Britainconvened an emergency summit to prepare his country for the possible loss of one or more hours, something that "*hasn't happened in our country since the depression in the 30s*." At the peak of the Great Depression in 1933, up to 5 hours were being lost per day. In the U.S., President Obama addressed the nation to calm people's fears. He also vowed to push Congressto introduce new legislation that would deal with the time loss problem. " *In these tough times, we cannot afford to lose even one more* *minute*," Obama carefully read from his teleprompter, "*which is why I propose that sometime in the fall, perhaps a week* *after Halloween, we should add one hour to the day to compensate for this weekend's loss*." However, Republicans on Capitol Hill already voiced opposition to such legislation, with minority leader John Boner Boehner claiming that "*the Democrats once again want to bend the laws of nature* *and take control of time away from Dialga *." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 03:00:55 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 20:00:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <2d6187670903082000l699937det4186976e35846efa@mail.gmail.com> >From the Defense for Children International website:* * *Executions* **Survivors describe Israeli tanks arriving in front of homes asking residents to come out. Children, old people and women would come forward and as they were lined up they were just fired on and killed. Families have lost tens of their members through such executions. The deliberate targeting of unarmed children and women is well documented by human right groups in the Gaza Strip over the past month. >>> I find this very hard to believe. I don't think Israel is blameless in this conflict, but I sure don't think they commit such blatant war crimes. This link tells about the organization behind the website: http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=698&CategoryId=16 As the classic saying goes, "if only the Jewish Zionist leaders had accepted the offer to create a new state of Israel in Africa, instead of re-establishing it in their ancient Middle Eastern homeland!" John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 9 03:27:46 2009 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 20:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? Message-ID: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg In imho Anna:) __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 04:42:11 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 21:42:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903082142y4d7378e1wf5c2578e3f076d60@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Anna Taylor wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg > > In imho > > Anna:) > > A bag pipes rendition of Amazing Grace will never fail to move me. I just wish it were followed by a video showing Bush and other U.S. political and business leaders crying tears of blood for the way they have screwed over their own nation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzL2Lu6ecEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzL2Lu6ecE The beautiful Jeri Ryan (7 of 9) singing Amazing Grace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geCZnSsq7ZI John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 04:47:52 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 21:47:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903082142y4d7378e1wf5c2578e3f076d60@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903082142y4d7378e1wf5c2578e3f076d60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903082147w272cbbfcw5506a70bf8a18a37@mail.gmail.com> try *this* link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzL2Lu6ecE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Mar 9 04:32:10 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:32:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] New Enlightenment talk from 1997 in Germany Message-ID: <200903090500.n2950JbM004975@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Huh. While working on the Bibliography for The Proactionary Principle, I discovered that the transcript of a talk I gave in 1997 in Munich is online. Although I would do it differently today (and better), it was fun to read again after an eight of a century. For those who might be interested, you can find it here: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/6/6143/1.html Onward! Max Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 9 05:05:52 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:05:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of Fred C. Moulton > Subject: Re: [ExI] israelis defeat physics > > > > Before speaking critically of the Lancet everyone should be > aware of the > following: > 1. The URL given is for a webpage that is not The Lancet but > is rather claiming The Lancet as a source. > 2. The URL given is for a webpage which has a link listed as "Source". > If you go to that "Source" link you will find that you are > not at the journal The Lancet but at a blog site. Further > you will find the original blog post has been removed. See: > http://www.thelancetglobalhealthnetwork.com/archives/608 > Cool, thanks Fred, that explanation sounds reasonable. I don't think the clowns that wrote that silly piece have anything to do with the Lancet, which I recall as being quite careful and credible, other than an absurd claim about the number of war deaths in Iraq a few years ago. I shoulda checked it before assuming all is as it claimed to be. Apologies Lancet, welcome back. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:20:15 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:20:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Enlightenment talk from 1997 in Germany In-Reply-To: <200903090500.n2950JbM004975@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200903090500.n2950JbM004975@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903082220wbd96bb6k2d74a32ff5a08e09@mail.gmail.com> Max More wrote: While working on the Bibliography for The Proactionary Principle, >>> Do I understand correctly that you are almost done writing *a book? *I have seen so many transhumanist themed tomes get published lately and I'm so relieved to see your own contribution will be hopefully coming out soon. There is only one Dr. Max More... John : ) P.S. Time to go back to watching "Breaking Bad." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 06:16:45 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:16:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg > In imho > Anna:) > I have come to equate this sound with american nationalism, of a sinister and loathsome kind. When I hear amazing grace the emotional association I get is that of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zl54WSO84&feature=related I am not exaggerating - I truly regard the US having been under a dictatorshop the last eight years, that did things approximating the worst of atrocities, for nothing else than ideological gain. I loathe this part of the US, inasmuch I loathe that part of German history. Unfortunately many traditional cultural expressions of the US have become contaminated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 9 05:51:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:51:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] darwin again: ants masturbate aphids... was RE: New Enlightenment talk In-Reply-To: <200903090500.n2950JbM004975@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200903090500.n2950JbM004975@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/6/6143/1.html > Max Thanks Max. There was something in your pitch that really caught my attention, about Darwin being influenced by economic theory. I am reading Origin of Species for the first time, although Darwin has been a hero to me since a long time ago. I am astounded at how good he was, and how carefully he observed nature. I have posted here about watching ants interact with aphids on my fruit trees. Darwin wrote something in Origin that blew my mind. He was puzzling over why aphids would give nectar to the ants. The usual explanation is that they do so in exchange for protection against aphid-devouring lady bugs, but that explanation has some difficulties that I noticed last summer. The ants take the nectar, but they do not devour it on the spot. Rather they take it down under ground to their sisters. If their path is blocked, they wander around in the tree for days, with the nectar, eventually falling or leaping from the tree. The aphids eventually go away too, but there seem to be far too few lady bugs to account for the missing aphids. The aphids appear to have gone off searching for ants to give away their nectar. Darwin commented in Origin that the ants stroke the aphids with their antennae in such a way that they then excrete the nectar that was previously apparently within the body of the aphid. He claims the ants do devour the nectar, so I need to observe again to witness that phenomenon. He describes trying to simulate the ant's actions on the aphid by stroking the aphid with a hair, but the aphid apparently wasn't fooled by the enormous heretic and did not excrete the nectar. So there you have it. Ants masturbate aphids, the little harlots. Biologists just don't have the touch. Origin of Species is a terrific book. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 07:03:48 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 00:03:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Dagon Gmail wrote: > I have come to equate this sound with american nationalism, of a sinister > and loathsome kind. When > I hear amazing grace the emotional association I get is that of this: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zl54WSO84&feature=related > > I am not exaggerating - I truly regard the US having been under a > dictatorshop the last eight years, that > did things approximating the worst of atrocities, for nothing else than > ideological gain. I loathe this part > of the US, inasmuch I loathe that part of German history. Unfortunately > many traditional cultural > expressions of the US have become contaminated. > > I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of WW2??? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. You must not know your history... Part of the reason the U.S. has had a hard time trying to "win" is that we fight with one hand tied behind our back, in an effort to at least try to be ethical. And when we make mistakes we usually/at least sometimes try to correct them and have governmental bodies to aid in this desire. Ask yourself, what would the Nazi SS have done in an identical war? They would have rounded up tens of thousands of civilians and routinely carried out public executions until they broke the spirit of Iraq. And the carpet/fire bombing of entire neighborhoods would have been done if viewed as necessary to pacify and cower the general population. Torture and interrogation would have occurred on a scale VASTLY greater than what has been done by the US. Mass deportation and slave labor would be implemented at every opportunity. And with our current technological resources, a modern-day Nazi-like armed forces could deploy a highly tailored bio-weapon to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions as the ultimate terror weapon. But then again a nuke or two might be used. I do agree that many traditional cultural expressions of the U.S. have been contaminated. The Republicans were expert at wrapping themselves in the flag and using Evangelical religion (with the aid of Evangelical leaders) for their own self-serving ends. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Mon Mar 9 07:34:23 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:34:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1236584063.6793.2473.camel@hayek> Waves of nausea. That is what I experience whenever I hear that song. Just look at the lyrics; about being a "wretch". Being able to see not because of critical rational inquiry but because of some superstitious thing called "grace"; what a nauseating idea. And lines like this: "T'was grace that taught my heart to fear And grace my fears reliev'd How precious did that grace appear, The hour I first believ'd" http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.rbc.pre.79197/enlarge.html?page=94§ion=&size=1024&from=contactsheet Just think about those lyrics. Those lyrics express an idea which is total crap. Now I realize that there is a historical link between the song and the anti-slavery movement however that does not make the lyrics of the song any less repulsive and vile. Fred On Sun, 2009-03-08 at 20:27 -0700, Anna Taylor wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg > > In imho > > Anna:) > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 08:49:56 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:49:56 +1100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/9 John Grigg : > I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement > with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of > WW2???? I would say that is REALLY pushing it.? You must not know your > history...? Part of the reason the U.S. has had a hard time trying to "win" > is that we fight with one hand tied behind our back, in an effort to at > least try to be ethical.? And when we make mistakes we usually/at least > sometimes try to correct them and have governmental bodies to aid in this > desire. FWIW the Germans in WWII also tried to be "ethical", for the most part following the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of prisoners of war etc. Even the gas chambers were devised as a humane solution for the Jewish problem, in the same way that US states which execute prisoners today try to convince themselves that they are not carrying out "cruel and unusual punishment". The enemy are scum and probably deserve to die, but because we are so noble we will spare them when we can and kill them kindly when we must. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 09:26:46 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:26:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Message-ID: On 3/9/09, spike wrote: > Cool, thanks Fred, that explanation sounds reasonable. I don't think the > clowns that wrote that silly piece have anything to do with the Lancet, > which I recall as being quite careful and credible, other than an absurd > claim about the number of war deaths in Iraq a few years ago. I shoulda > checked it before assuming all is as it claimed to be. Apologies Lancet, > welcome back. > The Lancet piece about Iraq war deaths is still regarded as best practice. Quote: The ORB and Lancet survey figures are the only statistically accurate casualty figures which are intended to show the total deaths (rather than lower limits, provided by surveys of only those deaths reported to authorities or media agencies). ---------- Just because you don't want to believe that the invasion and subsequent disruption and civil war eventually caused about an extra 400,000 to one million deaths in Iraq doesn't make the deaths disappear. discusses all the different methods of attempting to count the deaths. The US army deliberately refused to count deaths because it was bad PR and civilian record-keeping was almost non-existent during wartime. Some surveys only count war deaths as due to bullets or bombs. Casualties, like legs blown off, don't count as war deaths, even if they die later. (In road accident statistics, casualties are about ten times deaths). The Lancet survey tried to compare mortality rates before and after the war. During the war, having only rudimentary medical care, no medical supplies, no power, no sanitation, poor food, no police, rampant criminal activity, sectarian war, etc. obviously made the mortality rate much worse. BillK From sondre-list at bjellas.com Mon Mar 9 09:44:39 2009 From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:44:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] darwin again: ants masturbate aphids... was RE: New Enlightenment talk Message-ID: <49b4e534.1ae7300a.2aa5.ffffa3ba@mx.google.com> I'm currently reading 'Why Evolution is True', a new book that I just purchased on my recent trip to Seattle. It's a book I will push on all my friends who's still not convinced about evokution. Evolution is as much real as the theory of gravity. Easy to read book, even for non-scientists :-) - Sondre ----- Opprinnelig melding ----- Fra: spike Sendt: 9. mars 2009 06:51 Til: 'ExI chat list' Emne: [ExI] darwin again: ants masturbate aphids... was RE: New Enlightenment talk > http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/6/6143/1.html > Max Thanks Max. There was something in your pitch that really caught my attention, about Darwin being influenced by economic theory. I am reading Origin of Species for the first time, although Darwin has been a hero to me since a long time ago. I am astounded at how good he was, and how carefully he observed nature. I have posted here about watching ants interact with aphids on my fruit trees. Darwin wrote something in Origin that blew my mind. He was puzzling over why aphids would give nectar to the ants. The usual explanation is that they do so in exchange for protection against aphid-devouring lady bugs, but that explanation has some difficulties that I noticed last summer. The ants take the nectar, but they do not devour it on the spot. Rather they take it down under ground to their sisters. If their path is blocked, they wander around in the tree for days, with the nectar, eventually falling or leaping from the tree. The aphids eventually go away too, but there seem to be far too few lady bugs to account for the missing aphids. The aphids appear to have gone off searching for ants to give away their nectar. Darwin commented in Origin that the ants stroke the aphids with their antennae in such a way that they then excrete the nectar that was previously apparently within the body of the aphid. He claims the ants do devour the nectar, so I need to observe again to witness that phenomenon. He describes trying to simulate the ant's actions on the aphid by stroking the aphid with a hair, but the aphid apparently wasn't fooled by the enormous heretic and did not excrete the nectar. So there you have it. Ants masturbate aphids, the little harlots. Biologists just don't have the touch. Origin of Species is a terrific book. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 11:12:05 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:12:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] darwin again: ants masturbate aphids... was RE: New Enlightenment talk In-Reply-To: <49b4e534.1ae7300a.2aa5.ffffa3ba@mx.google.com> References: <49b4e534.1ae7300a.2aa5.ffffa3ba@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903090412x6f051c8au93a8cdfc32c449c9@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Sondre Bjell?s wrote: > I'm currently reading 'Why Evolution is True', a new book that I just > purchased on my recent trip to Seattle. > > It's a book I will push on all my friends who's still not convinced about > evokution. Evolution is as much real as the theory of gravity. > > Easy to read book, even for non-scientists :-) > I was wondering whether to purchase it, since I already have so much stuff on the subject. Moreover, I have some issues with the title. A "theory" is an explanation of things. Some theories are going to stay with us for the foreseeable future, some are revised, some abandoned, but in any event *a* theory of gravity or of evolution is bound to stay with us. Thus, ID confused criticism of a theory - e.g., the theory of gravity - with a criticism of gravity, something which does not really make sense, and *not* for scientific, but rather philosophical reasons. Let us say that even if we did not know zilch about biology, and we were, e.g., presocratic thinkers, there would be very good reasons to exclude per se what Dennett calls "skyhooks" and to decide that the only sensible attitude is to investigate which crates have been at work in the generation of the current biological landscape. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:39:08 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:39:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:03 AM, John Grigg wrote: > I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement > with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of > WW2???? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. Sadly John, the US has since ww2 come to worship at the altar of militarism. After Viet Nam I had hoped a lesson would be learned -- that the military can be an honorable institution when all citizens are vigilant in preventing its criminal misuse -- and that the individual human beings who comprise the military would not allow themselves to be so misused again, or at least not as long as the crimes of Viet Nam remained a living memory. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, I was wrong. The "training" that inductees receive regarding their responsibility to refuse to obey illegal orders is little more than a formality, a fantastical and treacherous tissue of nonsense, intended on one hand to legitimize military barbarism by wrapping it in the lie of ethical diligence, and on the other hand to set up the grunts to take the fall for the crimes of the command heirarchy. Reality is simpler. Instant and unquestioned obedience to all orders is the first -- and last -- commandment of military culture. Every soldier knows this and internalizes this idea as the very essence of "keeping faith" and doing one's "duty". Questioning the legality of an order is disloyalty and insubordination, treachery and treason. "When the President does it, that makes it legal." That perversion of the rule of law -- which might be called the Rule of Tyranny (or perhaps The Rule of Lie) -- permeates the military to the last nook and cranny. How many members of the officer corps, after no WMD had been found, went to the JAG office and asked for a legal opinion/finding regarding their own potential culpability for war crimes? Let me put it another way, How many officers, presumably highly educated individuals aware of their obligation to act lawfully, availed themselves of the professional legal resources/council provided for them by the military for consultation in situations where legality might be an issue, and/or civilian legal counsel (for a more independent opinion), regarding their possible exposure to criminal indictment arising from their participation in the "war" on Iraq? (Only one that I know of: Lt. Ehren Watada.) You get my point. And if, as you suggest, US behavior hardly reaches the degree of barbarism we associate with full-blown Nazism, how reassuring, how persuasive is such a defense? They only killed a million Iraqis, not six million jews, and they only did it kind sorta accidentally. Whose chest can swell at the thought that the US military is only "Waffen-SS-lite"? Best, Jeff Davis "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 19:31:23 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:31:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30903091231g146310c7se7d08e61abd44462@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > Sadly John, the US has since ww2 come to worship at the altar of > militarism. What everyone forgets is militarism is a means to an end. As Anatole France said, "In every well-governed state, wealth is a sacred thing; in democracies it is the only sacred thing." PJ From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:31:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:31:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:03 AM, John Grigg wrote: > >> I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement >> with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of >> WW2???? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. I take a much less moralising attitude, but I am always surprised how Americans always expect to be judged by different meters and parameters, whatever they do, from everybody else. How should one who is bombed, vanquished and invaded should rejoice and welcome the army of occupation as some sort of eschatological messiahs? -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:41:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:41:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:03 AM, John Grigg wrote: > And with our current technological resources, a > modern-day Nazi-like armed forces could deploy a highly tailored bio-weapon > to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions as the ultimate terror > weapon.? But then again a nuke or two might be used. Interesting indeed. Does really the average US citizen believes such things? Because, as it happens, while the Third Reich never had any nuclear weapon (but they did have chemical weapons that they never used...), a few other totalitarian regimes actually did, and yet the only power having ever made an actual military use of nukes are the US themselves. Not to mention the current plan to develop "small" nuclear bombs to penetrate the bunkers where the headquarters of hostile regimes may be located... How important, one wonders, is it for US nationalism and imperialism to feel being "on the side of the angels"? -- Stefano Vaj From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:48:10 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:03 AM, John Grigg wrote: >> >>> I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement >>> with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of >>> WW2???? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. > > I take a much less moralising attitude, but I am always surprised how > Americans always expect to be judged by different meters and > parameters, whatever they do, from everybody else. > > How should one who is bombed, vanquished and invaded ?should rejoice > and welcome the army of occupation as some sort of eschatological > messiahs? Ooh boy. Well, first, I don't think anyone here said we were worthy of great praise for our intervention in Iraq, just that we weren't nearly as bad as the Nazis. Secondly, even though I certainly don't support my government's actions there, I can easily imagine that some people, some Iraqis included, might see it as a liberating action rather than an outright takeover. At least they might if we ever manage to relinquish control and extricate ourselves. -Dave From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 9 21:04:29 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:04:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.co m> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> At 09:41 PM 3/9/2009 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: >while the Third Reich never had any nuclear >weapon (but they did have chemical weapons that they never used...) They did have V1 and V2 rocket missiles that they hammered England with. Hard to believe they wouldn't have used nukes if they'd had some. >How important, one wonders, is it for US nationalism and imperialism >to feel being "on the side of the angels"? Pretty much as important as for every nation, I imagine. Damien Broderick From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 23:49:02 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:49:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903091649o5fb760dfudbe26ba1cc945d08@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:04 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: >> How important, one wonders, is it for US nationalism and imperialism >> to feel being "on the side of the angels"? > > Pretty much as important as for every nation, I imagine. Really? Traditional nationalism was pretty contented of "right or wrong, my country". They need not believe that they were invested of some kind of divine mission. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 23:58:41 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:58:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903091658t341994a0q93208baf9f8de152@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > Ooh boy. Well, first, I don't think anyone here said we were worthy of > great praise for our intervention in Iraq, just that we weren't nearly > as bad as the Nazis. Why, I am far from blaming Joe Sixpacks for what he sees his government doing abroad on his TV set... As far as the governments are concerned, "mine killed fewer people and not really on purpose, others would have killed even more if they had bigger bombs" does not really qualify for moral high ground... :-) > Secondly, even though I certainly don't support > my government's actions there, I can easily imagine that some people, > some Iraqis included, might see it as a liberating action rather than > an outright takeover. Yes, for every aggressor a fifth column and a collaborationist party is always there, ready to serve. But this is by no means an exclusive privilege of the US armed forces... -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 10 01:48:00 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:48:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Given a gravitational constant G = 6.67428 by 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil of unit biblical height, how far does the apple fall from the tree? For extra credit, provide the answer in qubits. Damien Broderick, pH Professor, Newtonian Genetics, University of Ard-Knox, Geneva [this test item is for Spike Jones] From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 01:51:05 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:51:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of painlord2k at libero.it .... > > Will this crime be prosecuted by governments? > If it will be so, we can be sure some crimes will be > prosecuted first and others will be prosecuted after. > Criticism on transhumanism will be prosecuted last. > > Mirco Under the proposed UN rule, it would be illegal to even report stuff like this: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 01:59:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:59:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou .... > > FWIW the Germans in WWII also tried to be "ethical", for the > most part following the Geneva Convention regarding treatment > of prisoners of war etc. Even the gas chambers were devised > as a humane solution for the Jewish problem, in the same way > that US states which execute prisoners today try to convince > themselves that they are not carrying out "cruel and unusual > punishment". The enemy are scum and probably deserve to die, > but because we are so noble we will spare them when we can > and kill them kindly when we must. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, was this really necessary? Are you telling me you don't get the difference between a condemned murderer and Jewish citizens? Or was this a joke that fell flat, some kind of parody or something? I haven't read the responses yet, but I fear I shall hafta do some moderating to quiet the outrage, perhaps kill this thread. We haven't had to do that for a long time here. Do read over what you posted, think about it and offer a commentary if you wish. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 02:16:03 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:16:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <62c14240903091916v15131472p1788697930007091@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Given a gravitational constant > G = 6.67428 by 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 > and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil of unit biblical height, > how far does the apple fall from the tree? > For extra credit, provide the answer in qubits. > Damien Broderick, pH > Professor, Newtonian Genetics, University of Ard-Knox, Geneva > [this test item is for Spike Jones] > 42... no, that's the answer to Life, The Universe and Everything... 3... no, that's how many licks it takes... it's a trick question: there's no smoke from an electric train and you don't bury the survivors... I know, it's a koan: the sound of one hand clapping... Oh right... it's a rhetorical question. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 02:14:09 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:14:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> > ...On Behalf Of BillK .... > > The Lancet survey tried to compare mortality rates before and > after the war. During the war, having only rudimentary > medical care, no medical supplies, no power, no sanitation, > poor food, no police, rampant criminal activity, sectarian > war, etc. obviously made the mortality rate much worse. > > BillK BillK, to compare the death rate before and after the invasion and counting the difference as deaths due to war is exactly why the Lancet lost a lot of credibility. Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. That is why Saddam tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it would scare Iran away from attacking. Saddam played a gambit, knowing that France, Germany and Russia would veto an invasion because they had illegally carried on weapons trade with Iraq while under UN sanction. The US threatened to invade anyways, fearing Saddam really had nukes. Saddam bet Bush was bluffing, Bush bet Saddam wasn't. Both were wrong. (Source: Tenet, Eye of the Storm. He was there, and he was in charge of the intelligence as head of the CIA, and he uttered the infamous "slam dunk" comment that Saddam had nukes.) But since Bush invaded, Iran didn't. So the Lancet should estimate how many would have perished had Iran attacked. Then the number of deaths from the invasion would be negative several million. Who even has a good guess how many millions of lives were saved? Now of course, if Iran and Israel go at each other with nukes, we can argue that had Iran fought Iraq in 2003, then Iran would be in no condition to take on Israel today. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 02:18:33 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:18:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] darwin again: ants masturbate aphids... was RE: New Enlightenment talk In-Reply-To: <49b4e534.1ae7300a.2aa5.ffffa3ba@mx.google.com> References: <49b4e534.1ae7300a.2aa5.ffffa3ba@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4CA6B985DE3D4A079559C11F1F862F41@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Sondre Bjell?s ... > I'm currently reading 'Why Evolution is True', a new book > that I just purchased on my recent trip to Seattle. > > It's a book I will push on all my friends who's still not > convinced about evokution. Evolution is as much real as the > theory of gravity. > > Easy to read book, even for non-scientists :-) > > > - Sondre Sondre, what amazes me is how well Origin of Species has aged. It too is extremely well written, understandable for non-scientists, compelling, convincing. I can see why the clergy read it in the 1960s and came away convinced he was right. Darwin was a genius in so many ways: he was a wonderfully careful observer, his reasoning process impeccable, his command of the English language superior and his skills as a communicator to the nonspecialist is on par with Gould, Asimov and Sagan. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 04:07:22 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:07:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670903092107t7357a83clfe6bc9339a1d56a4@mail.gmail.com> Spike wrote: Now of course, if Iran and Israel go at each other with nukes, we can argue that had Iran fought Iraq in 2003, then Iran would be in no condition to take on Israel today. >>> I tend to think a second Iran and Iraq war (and no US invasion of Iraq) would have been another ugly and bloody eventual stalemate. But then again the internal problems that had weakened Iran's military in the first conflict were probably long since fixed, and so the nod toward any sort of real victory might have gone to Iran. In the first war it was a fairly professional Iraqi military with a numerically superior but weakened (due to internal purges and supplies for American weapon systems cut off) Iran fighting them. I'm not so sure that even a major war between Iran and Iraq would have seriously slowed Iran's quest for nuclear weapons. I tend to think they would have "Nazi Germany" style trudged on successfully with their work using underground and scattered around facilities. But taking on *Israel* is a whole different matter. Their "Samson Option" is extremely powerful and the number and accuracy of their nukes makes them almost a mini United States. And I have read they have used their best minds to deploy and even try to improve American anti-missle technology. And so Israel would have at least somewhat of a anti-missle shield (Iran having none) and far more numerous and accurate nukes than Iran. A nuclear exchange could result in a seriously injured Israel but an Iran with every city, military base and industrial center vaporized. And I suspect Israel also has a superior array of highly tailored bio and chemical weapons to finish the work of any earlier nuclear strikes. A heavily nuked and dying State of Israel (should their enemies REALLY luck out) might decide to (akin to Samson of old) launch nuclear, biological and chemical strikes against *all* Muslim/Arab/Persian middle eastern nations so there will be no potential enemy intact to celebrate the destruction of Israel. Israel is a relatively tiny strip of land and is surrounded by outright enemies or those who might easily return to that state of mind. Despite the industry, discipline and intelligence of the citizens of Israel (and a powerful friend from across the sea), they have their longterm work cut out for them in staying alive and independent. I tend to think of their Muslim enemies as "the gang that could never shoot straight" but in time that might change. May we never see such horrible scenarios ever come to be. John From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 04:21:10 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:21:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: >... > > >How important, one wonders, is it for US nationalism and > imperialism to feel being "on the side of the angels"? Stefano Vaj > > Pretty much as important as for every nation, I imagine. > > Damien Broderick Depends on which angels you mean. A third of the angels sided with the devil, as we are assured in Revelations 12 verse 9: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Being on the side of the angels is a wonderfully ambiguous moral position. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 04:32:25 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:32:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6841681419BB41E5A864B3CB9D6D5A34@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 6:48 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics > > Given a gravitational constant > G = 6.67428 by 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 > and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil of unit biblical > height, how far does the apple fall from the tree? > For extra credit, provide the answer in qubits. > Damien Broderick, pH > Professor, Newtonian Genetics, University of Ard-Knox, Geneva > [this test item is for Spike Jones] Hmmm, I would say it depends on the height of the tree, and how one defines the phrase "how far does the apple fall from the tree." Should we count the striking of the ground as the end of the fall? If the apple seeds manage to germinate and drop roots, does that constitute a continuation of the fall? spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 10 05:03:21 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:03:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> At 09:21 PM 3/9/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >Depends on which angels you mean. A third of the angels sided with the >devil, as we are assured in Revelations 12 verse 9:... > >Being on the side of the angels is a wonderfully ambiguous moral position. No, as any good born-again Darwinist knows, being "on the side of the angels" means being *unambiguously dead wrong*--because it's a phrase used by Benjamin Disraeli in 1864 to berate evolutionists: "The question is this: Is man an ape or an angel? Now I am on the side of the angels." Wrong, Benji. No positive reinforcement for you, sir. Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 04:46:39 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:46:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> Message-ID: <3982F391416940DC9B346BB8FA9222C4@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:00 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: Re: [ExI] What is Grace? > > > > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou > .... > > > > FWIW the Germans in WWII also tried to be "ethical", for > the most part > > following the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of prisoners of > > war etc. Even the gas chambers were devised as a humane > solution for > > the Jewish problem, in the same way that US states which execute > > prisoners today try to convince themselves that they are > not carrying > > out "cruel and unusual punishment". The enemy are scum and probably > > deserve to die, but because we are so noble we will spare > them when we > > can and kill them kindly when we must. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > Stathis, was this really necessary? Are you telling me you > don't get the difference between a condemned murderer and > Jewish civilians?... > spike > > Stathis et.al, someone posted me offlist about this, and offered an interpretation of your post other than the way I originally took it. You were not equating convicted murderers and German Jewish civilians, but rather pointing out that the populace can be led to do monsterous things under certain circumstances, and can fool themselves into thinking anything is ethical. This isn't very different from a popular thread that has been going around the net recently, and one that Keith has pointed out on a number of occasions. If that is what you meant, I offer my apologies for misinterpretation. Fair game, play ball! spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 05:59:07 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:59:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] moral ambiguity, was: What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Damien Broderick > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:03 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] What is Grace? > > At 09:21 PM 3/9/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > .... > >Being on the side of the angels is a wonderfully ambiguous > moral position. > > No, as any good born-again Darwinist knows, being "on the > side of the angels" means being *unambiguously dead > wrong*--because it's a phrase used by Benjamin Disraeli in > 1864 to berate evolutionists: "The question is this: Is man > an ape or an angel? Now I am on the side of the angels." > Wrong, Benji. No positive reinforcement for you, sir. > > Damien Broderick Oy, my highly literate friend has taught me much, and I do thank you sir for this generous and patient education. I have way overposted today, for which I apologize, but I had one additional thought I wish to slip in here in order to avoid adding yet another post to my already over-six day. Earlier I posted a commentary about the invasion of Iraq, essentially buying former CIA chief George Tenet's explanation: Saddam lied, people died. But I should point out that Tenet's book Center of the Storm has been called into question, and several of his claims are just plain wrong. One of the big fallacies can be found right in the introduction, the first page of text, where Tenet describes September 12th, going to the white house, and meeting Richard Perle coming out. Tenet: "As the doors closed behind him, we made eye contact and nodded. I had just reached the door myself when Perle turned to me and said, 'Iraq has to pay a price for what happened yesterday. They bear responsibility.' " Perle categorically denies ever having said any such thing to Tenet, while coming out of the White House or anywhere else. Perle was verifiably in France on September 11, and was unable to get a flight back to the states for several days, eventually returning on a military transport on 15 September. Having so glaring an error (or intentional lie) on the first page seriously undermines the credibility of the book. Doug Feith and Condi Rice have taken issue with Tenet as well. Tenet has never offered, as far as I know, a retraction or an explanation for his speaking to Perle on the steps of the white house, when Perle was in France. On the other hand, the FBI special agent George Piro, who also questioned Saddam in the final weeks before he was handed over to the Iraqis, agrees with Tenet, and even offers more commentary that Tenet did not include in his Center of the Storm. One may speculate that Tenet has possible reasons to lie: he was the one who handled the intelligence and advised Bush, he is an ideological adversary of Perle, and of course he has a book to sell (and no job). Piro has none of that and has offered no books, but his story is consistent with the facts. In the curious moral ambiguity of war, we see the recent conflict between Israel and Gaza as a demonstration of how technologically advanced and how stunningly accurate is the Israeli weaponry. Israel could have flattened Gaza, but instead they chose instead to show the precision of their aim. Thousands died; at the same time the demonstration may sufficient warning to Iran to back down and stop threatening to wipe Israel off the map. Hard to say how history will view this decade fifty years from now, when we know how the approaching showdown between Israel and Iran plays out. The US invasion stopped a war between Iran and Iraq, killing thousands while saving millions of lives, but as an unintended consequence, may have enabled a bigger subsequent war between stronger opponents, Iran and Israel, which may kill tens of millions, and could even go nukular, evolution forbid. spike From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 10 06:12:46 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 02:12:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Brains (was What is Grace?) References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <29666bf30903091231g146310c7se7d08e61abd44462@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A6A05241F564B02BBA949F938D107DD@MyComputer> "PJ Manney" > As Anatole France said, "In every well-governed state, > wealth is a sacred thing; in democracies it is the > only sacred thing." He almost makes that sound like a bad thing; the fewer things that are sacred the better as far as I'm concerned. Fun Fact: Anatole France's brain weighed just 37 ounces, one of the smallest non retarded brains ever recorded as the average is 48; and yet the man did OK with his small brain, it earned him a Nobel. At the other end of the scale Lord Byron's brain was over twice as big, it weighed 79 ounces. Some say Ivan Turgenev and Jonathan Swift had even larger brains but it's not as well documented; but I don't believe any famous person is known to have a smaller brain than France. I'm not making any point, I just find it interesting. John K Clark From moulton at moulton.com Tue Mar 10 07:52:12 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:52:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] moral ambiguity, was: What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> Message-ID: <1236671532.6793.2747.camel@hayek> On Mon, 2009-03-09 at 22:59 -0700, spike wrote: > Hard to say how history will view this decade fifty years from now, when we > know how the approaching showdown between Israel and Iran plays out. The US > invasion stopped a war between Iran and Iraq, Maybe. That is a conjecture at best. > killing thousands Thousands of just US service personnel alone. The number of US service personnel with major injuries very large. The number of Iraqi dead, injured and displaced are difficult to calculate. > while saving > millions of lives, That is just a conjecture; and not very convincing. > but as an unintended consequence, may have enabled a > bigger subsequent war between stronger opponents, Hopefully not. What I see is that from the end of WWII onward the US and others (some even earlier) have had a parade of hubris, incompetence and mendacity throughout the middle East. The Bush decision to invade Iraq will likely go down in history as one of the most stupid decisions ever made by a POTUS. Perhaps some day the US and other governments will understand that there are just some situations which they do not understand and in which they should avoid meddling. > Iran and Israel, which may > kill tens of millions, and could even go nukular, evolution forbid. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 11:29:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:29:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 3:14 AM, spike wrote: > Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. ?That is why Saddam > tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it would scare Iran > away from attacking. Really?! Any source at hand? My personal recollection is that not only was such a claim wildly implausible, owing inter alia the embargo and disarray of Iraq after the first Gulf War, but that Iraqi authorities have always adamantly denied the possession of any kind of WMD. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 11:34:00 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:34:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903100433m66d6dd19qea9891fdc778b5d3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 2:51 AM, spike wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html Kind of news that makes me suddenly inclined towards radical libertarianism... :-) What sounds crazy enough is that no kind of adultery or youth corruption seems conceivably involved. Just some courtesy visiting of an old nurse... Shame on the Saudi government & legal system, and the world forces that keep it in its place. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 11:37:27 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:37:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903100437v302e3e83l7956a8828f65c7a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:21 AM, spike wrote: > Depends on which angels you mean. ?A third of the angels sided with the > devil, as we are assured in Revelations 12 verse 9: Indeed, nice repartee... :-D Silly of me to forget them, especially as they were probably convicted of "implied transhumanism"... :-D -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 11:51:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:51:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] moral ambiguity, was: What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <1236671532.6793.2747.camel@hayek> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> <1236671532.6793.2747.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <580930c20903100451r445e44a7h81b9719373c6506c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Fred C. Moulton wrote: > On Mon, 2009-03-09 at 22:59 -0700, spike wrote: >> Hard to say how history will view this decade fifty years from now, when we >> know how the approaching showdown between Israel and Iran plays out. ?The US >> invasion stopped a war between Iran and Iraq, > > Maybe. ?That is a conjecture at best. In fact, even without any compliance from its side with regard to ONU resolutions on the "right of going back" of Palestinian refugees, and owing to mere demographic trends, it would appear that fifty years from now either Israel will have evolved in a fully-fledged apartheid system or will have become an Islamic state... :-/ This would probably weaken the probability of an Israel-Iran confrontation... -- Stefano Vaj From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 12:51:57 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:51:57 +1100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/10 spike : >> On Behalf Of painlord2k at libero.it > .... >> >> Will this crime be prosecuted by governments? >> If it will be so, we can be sure some crimes will be >> prosecuted first and others will be prosecuted after. >> Criticism on transhumanism will be prosecuted last. >> >> Mirco > > Under the proposed UN rule, it would be illegal to even report stuff like > this: > > http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html Why would it be illegal to report it? It seems the Saudis are proud of it and would like to run the whole world this way if they could. It's only reports they believe to be untrue or, if true, that they are ashamed of that they want banned. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 13:19:50 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:19:50 +1100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/10 spike : > >> ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou > .... >> >> FWIW the Germans in WWII also tried to be "ethical", for the >> most part following the Geneva Convention regarding treatment >> of prisoners of war etc. Even the gas chambers were devised >> as a humane solution for the Jewish problem, in the same way >> that US states which execute prisoners today try to convince >> themselves that they are not carrying out "cruel and unusual >> punishment". The enemy are scum and probably deserve to die, >> but because we are so noble we will spare them when we can >> and kill them kindly when we must. >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou > > > Stathis, was this really necessary? ?Are you telling me you don't get the > difference between a condemned murderer and Jewish citizens? ?Or was this a > joke that fell flat, some kind of parody or something? > > I haven't read the responses yet, but I fear I shall hafta do some > moderating to quiet the outrage, perhaps kill this thread. ?We haven't had > to do that for a long time here. ?Do read over what you posted, think about > it and offer a commentary if you wish. The Nazis thought the Jews should be killed, but they wanted to put them to death "humanely" (at least at the start of the war) because they wanted to continue thinking of themselves as good people. This sentiment has been repeated throughout history whenever groups of people carry out terrible acts. For example, we tend to think that the guillotine was part of the savagery of the French Revolution, but at the time it was seen as an innovation that allowed the necessary unpleasantness of dispatching with the aristocracy to occur in a civilised way. Is this more shocking than simply believing that the Nazis and others like them went about their business in the gleeful knowledge that they were doing evil? -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 10 14:41:16 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:41:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> Message-ID: <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stathis Papaioannou > ... > > The Nazis thought the Jews should be killed, but they wanted > to put them to death "humanely" (at least at the start of the > war) because they wanted to continue thinking of themselves > as good people. This sentiment has been repeated throughout > history whenever groups of people carry out terrible acts. > For example, we tend to think that the guillotine was part of > the savagery of the French Revolution, but at the time it was > seen as an innovation that allowed the necessary > unpleasantness of dispatching with the aristocracy to occur > in a civilised way. Is this more shocking than simply > believing that the Nazis and others like them went about > their business in the gleeful knowledge that they were doing evil? > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou Ja, I find it continually amazing and appalling that the Nazis were able to find enough guys to go along with it. It demonstrates that we humans can be turned under certain circumstances to do monsterously evil deeds. spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Mar 10 14:13:45 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:13:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Bay area visits Message-ID: <1236694845_4918@s7.cableone.net> I am in the bay area occasionally. Some of these time I am giving talks on issues that are either tranhuman or should be. Send me a note if you want to know what dates I will be in that area. Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 15:02:21 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:02:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903100802j591a0c7akfab2844708fd8e43@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Why would it be illegal to report it? It seems the Saudis are proud of > it and would like to run the whole world this way if they could. It's > only reports they believe to be untrue or, if true, that they are > ashamed of that they want banned. Right. What would be illegal is not reporting, but rather criticising it... -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Mar 10 15:07:19 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:07:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 2nd Chaotic Modeling and Simulation International Conference (CHAOS2009) , Conference Poster and Information Message-ID: <72880EE14DF64EAA96ECDA285FAE1072@DFC68LF1> Please find below information regarding the forthcoming Chaotic Modeling and Simulation International Conference (CHAOS2009, June 1-5, 2009, Chania, Crete, Greece). CHAOS2009 Secretariat secretariat at chaos2009.net www.chaos2009.net 1. A Conference Poster is available at: http://www.chaos2009.net/scientificcommittee/poster.html http://www.chaos2009.net/images/PosterCHAOS2009Conference1.pdf Keynote Talks appear at: http://www.chaos2009.net/keynotetalks.html Special Sessions proposed so far at: http://www.chaos2009.net/specialsessions.html 2. Publications: a) The Book of Abstracts, b) Proceedings: We will follow the proceedings system applied in the previous CHAOS2008 conference. See at http://www.chaos2009.net/previouschaos2008/publications.html http://www.chaos2008.net/zzProceedings/CHAOS2008%20(D)/index.html 3. Post Conference Publications: Journal issues and a book devoted to CHAOS2009 Conference will include the best papers presented (see the Book of the last year conference on CHAOS2008 published by World Scientific titled: "Topics on Chaotic Systems: Selected Papers from Chaos 2008 International Conference" at http://www.amazon.ca/Topics-Chaotic-Systems-International-Conference/dp/9814 271330 4. Abstract/Paper submission and Special Session Proposals may be sent from the conference website page at: http://www.chaos2009.net/abstractpapersubmission.html . 5. Accommodation forms can downloaded at http://www.chaos2009.net/importantdatesprogram/accommodation.html 6. Excursion to Elafonnisi: An ideal place for swimming ( http://www.asmda.com//CDasmda2007a/docs/elafonissi_info.pdf ) 7. Excursion to Knossos: Visit the famous Minoan Palace built more than 3000 years ago. http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html The weather during June in Chania: June normally delivers fine sunny days and moderate-to-hot temperatures. Water is warm enough for swimming. Day time peaks between 23 and 29 degrees Celsius. New book from Chapman & Hall/CRC: Chaotic Modelling and Simulation: Analysis of Chaotic Models, Attractors and Forms Previous Conference: Chaotic Modeling and Simulation International Conference (CHAOS2008 ), 3-6 June 2008, Chania Crete Greece Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: att2e770.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 17:14:07 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:14:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement > with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of > WW2??? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. You must not know your > history... Part of the reason the U.S. has had a hard time trying to "win" > is that we fight with one hand tied behind our back, in an effort to at > least try to be ethical. And when we make mistakes we usually/at least > sometimes try to correct them and have governmental bodies to aid in this > desire. > > Ask yourself, what would the Nazi SS have done in an identical war? They > would have rounded up tens of thousands of civilians and routinely carried > out public executions until they broke the spirit of Iraq. And the > carpet/fire bombing of entire neighborhoods would have been done if viewed > as necessary to pacify and cower the general population. Torture and > interrogation would have occurred on a scale VASTLY greater than what has > been done by the US. Mass deportation and slave labor would be implemented > at every opportunity. And with our current technological resources, a > modern-day Nazi-like armed forces could deploy a highly tailored bio-weapon > to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions as the ultimate terror > weapon. But then again a nuke or two might be used. > I suggest by no means that the former political elite of the US, specifically the cadre of neoconservatives and hawks that surrounded Cheney, were not as methodically ruthless, genocidal or criminal as the people surrounding Hitler. I do assert these people had some remaining principles. But what happened in the last eight years was a series of corporate exploitation programs, social darwinist, a long list of war crimes skirting the border of genocide, unspeakable incompetence and an overwhelming cynicism. A more apt comparison would be comparing Bush with Mugabe. Mugabe's country is a lot poorer, his supporters undereducated and dumb as a bucket - but the cynicism, opportunism loathing for political adversaries is roughly equal. I hasten to add arrogance, conceit, disinterest in longterm planning, and more. President Cheney was limited in his reach of options by public opinion, the pretense of US democracy and strategic alliances. But let me say so bluntly - If a nuclear weapon would have detonated in a minor US city, say, around 2006, Cheney would no doubt lose a night of sleep over the lost US city, and he would have uses the incident as a welcome rationale to nuke several middle eastern cities. Let me emphasize that stating this *belief* on my part has almost no function, other than the small amount of embarrassment it might create in Americans. This is the only reason I say it. I say loudly that the US was completely wrong for the better part of a decade. I regard the choices of the US as betrayal - the US has done things that betrayed democracy, freedom, rationality and sound governance. The idea is somewhat remote, but several undesirable things that transpired would not have happened if, say, Gore would have been elected in 2000. For one thing I am sure we would not be in a global economic collapse right now, and a million Iraqi's would still be alive, living in their country and relatively well off. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:44:50 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:44:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903101144l68bc661pa60075f17ed469c5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Dagon Gmail wrote: > But what happened > in the last eight years was a series of corporate exploitation programs, > social darwinist, a? long list of > war crimes skirting the border of genocide I do not consider myself by any mean a Social Darwinist, an ideology that I consider to say the least biologically naive, and even less I consider myself a neocon, God forbid, so I have no personal axe to grind here. But I have to object, for critical reasons, to the mischaracterisation implied in considering neocons as Social Darwinists. In fact, Social Darwinism used to be a left-wing doctrine based on the idea that contemporary societies should be reformed in the sense of abolishing the various mechanisms protecting privileged, parasitic classes from social competition and/or from the "struggle for life", supposedly guaranteeing social improvement through the "success of the fittest", or at least creating a more equitable "level plain field" for everybody. While undeniably this has evolved in the idea that individualist libertarianism and anarco-capitalism, e.g., of a Randian bend, would have some biological arguments in their favour, or in turn would correspond to some kind of "natural status of things", neocons can only be described as an ideology obsessed with security and essentially aimed at *strengthening* the protection of social power of largely parasitic upper classes against social mobility and social or international threats, not really at fostering a Hobbesian "war of all against all", be it even at a purely economic level. What would this have to do with "Darwinism"? This sounds much more like the creation and maintenance of a comfortable, albeit fully artificial, habitat for rich dodos. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 20:38:36 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:38:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Microsoft's business model is done Message-ID: Interesting article. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Microsoft-business-model-over/story.aspx?guid={4C81119F-100F-4D73-95AD-80424E949DC1}&dist=SecMostRead or http://preview.tinyurl.com/dlwgez "If Intel can provide users with powerful little systems for $99 and has been pushing prices lower and lower over the years, why can't Microsoft? Intel makes elaborate hardware in billion-dollar factories. Microsoft stamps out a disk. This discrepancy has to end soon." -Dave From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 21:35:30 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:35:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Dagon Gmail wrote: > ... several undesirable things that transpired would not have happened if, say, > Gore would have been elected in 2000.? For one thing I am sure we would not > be in a global economic collapse right now... I'd ask for your reasoning behind this claim. The housing bubble like the tech bubble before it, sucked everyone into the irrational exhuberance. Though several individuals saw and sought to alert others to the bubble problem, they went unnoticed in the mad dash for fast money. Buy this house and flip it, build this condo or housing development or commercial property and sell it at a huge profit to a mob of people clawing past one another for a chance to plunk their money down. Correction: to plunk some money down that they got from some banker: just sign here, no questions asked. Then the (unregulated Wall Street investment)banker bundles the mortgages as fast as he can sell them (pretty fast) into securities, and sells them again (around the world -- ain't globalism wonderful?!), collects his commissions again, and waves "bye bye!" (he thinks) to the funky-ass financial instruments based on funky-ass mortgages. How do you put the brakes on the magical money machine that's making everyone (fictitiously) wealthy, right up to the moment when it turns on you and kills the real golden goose -- the genuine and legitimate capitalist free-enterprise golden goose? Gore might well have kept focus on OBL and prevented 911, but the economic house of cards? I think that blind-sided everyone. My question is, How could that have happened? I mean the boom and bust pattern is all but cliche, totally predictable, so where is the structural defect in "the system" that directs/enables humans to drive over the same cliff again and again? Anyway, that's my two cents. Best, jeff davis Everyting's hard till you know how to do it. Ray Charles From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Mar 10 22:40:51 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:40:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Milgram Experiment was What is Grace? (Milgram In-Reply-To: <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> Message-ID: <1236725272_3141@s7.cableone.net> At 07:41 AM 3/10/2009, spike wrote: snip >Ja, I find it continually amazing and appalling that the Nazis were able to >find enough guys to go along with it. It demonstrates that we humans can be >turned under certain circumstances to do monsterously evil deeds. This is well known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment The Milgram Experiment A lesson in depravity, the power of authority, and peer pressure http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm This article ends with: "Both of the theories that Milgram proposed have implications for training our children (or ourselves) to resist destructive peer pressure." The assumption in this statement is pure blank state. People certainly can be trained but how well the training affects future behavior varies widely depending on what is being trained into people. Motor skills are fairly easy or else people would not learn to ride bikes. Training to resist peer pressure I expect to be much harder and probably the results will be highly dependant on genetic makeup. Anyone want to guess when Rwanda or Cambodia will have another population reducing spasm? Keith From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 10 23:10:31 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:10:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090310180709.0270f2c8@satx.rr.com> At 03:35 PM 3/10/2009 -0600, Jeff wrote: >the economic house of cards? I think that blind-sided everyone. >My question is, How could that have happened? I mean the boom and >bust pattern is all but cliche, totally predictable, so where is the >structural defect in "the system" that directs/enables humans to drive >over the same cliff again and again? The lack of moral reasoning in every greedy self-blinding bastard involved, which is almost everyone. This is not a plea for some socialist doctrine denouncing individual enterprise; I'm sure Ayn Rand would be there first and foremost making the same argument. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Mar 10 23:21:04 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:21:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Milgram Experiment was What is Grace? (Milgram In-Reply-To: <1236725272_3141@s7.cableone.net> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> <1236725272_3141@s7.cableone.net> Message-ID: <1236727684_3286@s7.cableone.net> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norm-stamper/police-brutality-deal-wit_b_173427.html From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 00:25:51 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:25:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humor: Don't make Pres. Obama angry! & fixing the economy call-in contest, SNL skits Message-ID: <2d6187670903101725o38e3414ck3081f3ea29790f50@mail.gmail.com> The link takes you to a funny Saturday Night-Live skit about Pres. Obama turning into a Hulk-like being (Duane Johnson, a.k.a. The Rock) when he gets pushed too far by people trying to take advantage of him or demanding too much, too soon! The other great short had the Treasury Secretary running a televised phone call-in contest where $420 billion would be given to the person or persons who came up with a workable plan to fix the banking mess! LOL Considering all the threads we have had on the economy, I thought many here would get a kick out of it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/08/snl-the-rock-obama-dont-m_n_172826.html John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 00:29:26 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:59:26 +1030 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903101729u1500e798k331e98edb48253e9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/10 Damien Broderick : > At 09:41 PM 3/9/2009 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: > >> while the Third Reich never had any nuclear >> weapon (but they did have chemical weapons that they never used...) > > They did have V1 and V2 rocket missiles that they hammered England with. > Hard to believe they wouldn't have used nukes if they'd had some. > >> How important, one wonders, is it for US nationalism and imperialism >> to feel being "on the side of the angels"? > > Pretty much as important as for every nation, I imagine. The US may be exceptionally prone to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 00:34:23 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:04:23 +1030 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/10 spike : > >> ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou > .... >> >> FWIW the Germans in WWII also tried to be "ethical", for the >> most part following the Geneva Convention regarding treatment >> of prisoners of war etc. Even the gas chambers were devised >> as a humane solution for the Jewish problem, in the same way >> that US states which execute prisoners today try to convince >> themselves that they are not carrying out "cruel and unusual >> punishment". The enemy are scum and probably deserve to die, >> but because we are so noble we will spare them when we can >> and kill them kindly when we must. >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou > > > Stathis, was this really necessary? ?Are you telling me you don't get the > difference between a condemned murderer and Jewish citizens? ?Or was this a > joke that fell flat, some kind of parody or something? > > I haven't read the responses yet, but I fear I shall hafta do some > moderating to quiet the outrage, perhaps kill this thread. ?We haven't had > to do that for a long time here. ?Do read over what you posted, think about > it and offer a commentary if you wish. > > spike Hold on there Spike. Many of us do believe that killing criminals is wrong. I think there is a moral difference between what the Nazis did and killing people as part of the justice system, but both of these things are way out past the "do not cross this line" line, as far as I'm concerned. >From the perspective of a group that cares about indefinite life extension, might we view putting others to death as an act of unjustifiable hubris? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Wed Mar 11 01:44:56 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:44:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Emlyn .... > > Hold on there Spike. Many of us do believe that killing > criminals is wrong. I think there is a moral difference > between what the Nazis did and killing people as part of the > justice system, but both of these things are way out past the > "do not cross this line" line, as far as I'm concerned. > > >From the perspective of a group that cares about indefinite life > extension, might we view putting others to death as an act of > unjustifiable hubris? > -- > Emlyn Ja, and so I propose a solution that should satisfy transhumanists and non-transhumanists. Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, and reanimated at such time as we understand how to cure the condition which led to the capital crime. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 02:13:34 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:13:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090310210233.02831510@satx.rr.com> At 06:44 PM 3/10/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, >and reanimated at such time as we understand how to cure the condition which >led to the capital crime. Two problems (at least, beyond the "don't be bloody ridiculous" objection from almost everyone else out there): This "medicalizes" crime. That might be justified, but many will see the suggestion as an affront. And this is a really powerful memetic way to contaminate cryonic suspension with the taint of punishment and murder. You might, though, get away with doing it *after* cryonics is accepted widely, *then* conscripting it as a replacement for judicial life-taking. Other than that, it's a quite elegant way to use cryonics, since for many pro-execution people it can be sold as the moral equivalent of death and for anti-execution people the moral equivalent of life imprisonment. But the former might balk at paying indefinitely for someone they want snuffed out, while the latter might see it as either judicial murder in disguise or as a sort of soft option once recovery has been demonstrated. And if you can't afford suspension, hey, just murder someone and get frozen for free in a government facility... Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 03:34:26 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:04:26 +1030 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903102034j9747a6fo5fb26107a23e0b41@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/11 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn > .... >> >> Hold on there Spike. Many of us do believe that killing >> criminals is wrong. I think there is a moral difference >> between what the Nazis did and killing people as part of the >> justice system, but both of these things are way out past the >> "do not cross this line" line, as far as I'm concerned. >> >> >From the perspective of a group that cares about indefinite life >> extension, might we view putting others to death as an act of >> unjustifiable hubris? >> -- >> Emlyn > > Ja, and so I propose a solution that should satisfy transhumanists and > non-transhumanists. ?Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, > and reanimated at such time as we understand how to cure the condition which > led to the capital crime. > > spike > Demolition Man http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/ But seriously, that's no solution. To begin with, it's not been proved to be safe yet, really only the province of volunteers. Also, assuming people would view being frozen as a serious punishment (we might like that briar patch, but we are not most people), it's still of the same magnitude as murder, and the same moral problems apply. That is, are you really so sure of your justice system's quality that you will let it take a life? http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/394.php http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Ryan also http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/ And one final point, I don't think committing murder, for example, requires a medical condition. Sadistic serial killers maybe so, but they are not the entirety of murderers by a long stretch. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Wed Mar 11 03:51:55 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:51:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here we go: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507605,00.html "Science can't say whether God represents a loving, vengeful or nonexistent being. But researchers have revealed for the first time how such religious beliefs trigger different parts of the brain..." From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 04:27:22 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:27:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090310232523.028658f8@satx.rr.com> At 08:51 PM 3/10/2009 -0700, spike wrote: >Here we go: > >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507605,00.html Here's a nice story I edited for COSMOS on this topic: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 04:32:33 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:32:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090310233122.02873c48@satx.rr.com> Well, no, they exactly *didn't*: <"That suggests that religion is not a special case of a belief system, but evolved along with other belief and social cognitive abilities," said Jordan Grafman, a cognitive neuroscientist at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke in Bethesda, Maryland. Such results fit with previous research which shows that no single "God spot" exists in the brain.> From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 05:26:14 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:56:14 +1030 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903102226h50cd6c60x8c9eefb23c8a7762@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/11 spike : > > Here we go: > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507605,00.html > Ah Faux News, lovely. The Americas gave Oz the Cane Toad, and we countered with Rupert Murdoch. We win :-) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From spike66 at att.net Wed Mar 11 05:56:07 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:56:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903102226h50cd6c60x8c9eefb23c8a7762@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike><710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903102226h50cd6c60x8c9eefb23c8a7762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3780B996AD564458AE2C0EE4CE6343EE@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Emlyn > Subject: Re: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain > > 2009/3/11 spike : > > > > Here we go: > > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507605,00.html > > > > Ah Faux News, lovely. The Americas gave Oz the Cane Toad, and > we countered with Rupert Murdoch. We win :-) > > -- > Emlyn Faux news is the only one left that does much of anything with science stories. The others have cut costs, the science sections and quality going first. True Fox does love to run stories on the lastest disappeared blondie and man-shoots-family stories, but ignore that and notice how well they report science. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 07:25:45 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:55:45 +1030 Subject: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain In-Reply-To: <3780B996AD564458AE2C0EE4CE6343EE@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903102226h50cd6c60x8c9eefb23c8a7762@mail.gmail.com> <3780B996AD564458AE2C0EE4CE6343EE@spike> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903110025k67e43d10l5ba96422310c8a07@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/11 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Emlyn >> Subject: Re: [ExI] scientists locate god spot in brain >> >> 2009/3/11 spike : >> > >> > Here we go: >> > >> > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,507605,00.html >> > >> >> Ah Faux News, lovely. The Americas gave Oz the Cane Toad, and >> we countered with Rupert Murdoch. We win :-) >> >> -- >> Emlyn > > > Faux news is the only one left that does much of anything with science > stories. ?The others have cut costs, the science sections and quality going > first. ?True Fox does love to run stories on the lastest disappeared blondie > and man-shoots-family stories, but ignore that and notice how well they > report science. > > spike > Do you read Bad Science, by Ben Goldacre? I can't recommend his blog, etc, enough. http://www.badscience.net/ -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:00:48 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:00:48 +1100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903102034j9747a6fo5fb26107a23e0b41@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> <710b78fc0903102034j9747a6fo5fb26107a23e0b41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/11 Emlyn : > And one final point, I don't think committing murder, for example, > requires a medical condition. Sadistic serial killers maybe so, but > they are not the entirety of murderers by a long stretch. At present in most jurisdictions it is only those who commit murder as a result of what in the DSM-IV is called an Axis 1 disorder that are found not guilty due to mental illness; for example, someone with schizophrenia who acts under command hallucinations, which can remove the patient's sense of free will. Under Axis 2 are the personality disorders, including antisocial personality disorder, and these are not normally seen as an excuse, or even mitigating circumstances. This because these disorders don't respond to treatment in the way Axis 1 disorders do, and the only thing that can stop offending behaviour in these people is fear of consequences. But if you think about it there is no fundamental distinction between behaviour due to an Axis 1 disorder, Axis 2 disorder, or no diagnosable disorder at all (accounting for the great majority of crime, as you suggest), since all behaviour is due to physical processes in the brain. The distinction between treatable and not treatable is really just due to the primitive state of modern psychiatry. If we had full understanding and control of the brain, it would be clear that every crime is the result of the person's neurological condition, which could be rectified by the appropriate treatment. I imagine there would then be debate about whether it is better to force criminals to have treatment or to lock them up, but hopefully in those future enlightened times killing them won't be among the options. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:46:09 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:46:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090310210233.02831510@satx.rr.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090310210233.02831510@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903110446g3cef3d63q8b1ccaff951be9c4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Two problems (at least, beyond the "don't be bloody ridiculous" objection > from almost everyone else out there): > This "medicalizes" crime. That might be justified, but many will see the > suggestion as an affront. > And this is a really powerful memetic way to contaminate cryonic suspension > with the taint of punishment and murder. > You might, though, get away with doing it *after* cryonics is accepted > widely, *then* conscripting it as a replacement for judicial life-taking. > Other than that, it's a quite elegant way to use cryonics, since for many > pro-execution people it can be sold as the moral equivalent of death and for > anti-execution people the moral equivalent of life imprisonment. But the > former might balk at paying indefinitely for someone they want snuffed out, > while the latter might see it as either judicial murder in disguise or as a > sort of soft option once recovery has been demonstrated. You steal a few objection from my lips. But then I have some additional ones. I have the feeling that especially in the US many "hardliners" see criminal sentences as a form of biblical retribution ("you did the crime, you do the time"), and the convicted felon as a sinner; while many "softliner" see the convicted felon as a sick person in need of psychiatric help. Actually, while criminal punishments may *also* offer some moral satisfaction to the victim and appease the moral outrage of the public, its essential purpose is to deter a number of behaviours - sometimes rather exotic and not necessarily "immoral" but for the fact of being illegal - from being adopted by *rational* deciders (who are supposed to compare the expected dividends against the likely sentence multiplied the changes of being caught red-handed). In fact, people who are irrational enough to be in need of a "cure" are (or should) not be punishable *even today*, being exempted by the McNaughton rules or their continental equivalents. Now, cryonic suspension would not serve any conceivable purpose in this respect. It would not allow us to "cure" people who were never insane in the first place, nor, admitting that expectation of resurrectin becomes widespread, it could be seen as a factor significantly altering what is perceived as the most convenient course of action by those contemplating crime as an option. -- Stefano Vaj From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Mar 11 16:34:20 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:34:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] SXSW Plutopia Event 2009 - Bruce Sterling, Max More, Sandy Stone, Natasha Vita-More Message-ID: <14CF8AF453DF4D00BAF1E9417BEA8C2F@DFC68LF1> SXSW 2009 Interactive & Plutopia Extravaganza "Plutopia! - Best SXSW Interactive party to date" - Stephen Moser, Austin Chronicle A stellar host of local, national & international artists, speakers & musicians on 3 stages! - The Biggest SXSWi Event Monday, March 16, 2009 6pm - midnight Palmer Events Center 900 Barton Springs Road, Austin, Texas 78704 | map FREE to all SXSW badge holders, $10 General Public. All welcome! FEATURING: Ian McLagan & The Bump Band The Heather Gold Show Bruce Sterling Max More Stanza Natasha Vita-More Adam Zaretsky The Black Pig Liberation Front Hipnautica What was once the SXSW Interactive EFF-Austin Official After Party has morphed into a multifaceted extravaganza called "Plutopia", an exciting convergence of technology, DIY, music, and art performance. In addition to standard party fare, Plutopia will be yet another memorable, stimulating, and fun SXSW event. Way beyond the run-of-the-mill after-party mixer, Plutopia is an ever evolving multimedia experiment of Austin-tatious proportions. This year's sponsors include: SXSWi < http://sxsw.com/> , Laughing Squid < http://laughingsquid.com/> , FG Squared < http://www.fg2.com/> , The Futures Lab < http://futures-lab.com/> , Door 64 < http://door64.com/> , Social Web Strategies < http://socialwebstrategies.com/> and Texas Rollergirls < http://www.txrollergirls.com/> . A portion of this year's proceeds benefit EFF-Austin < http://www.effaustin.org/> and Urban Roots < http://www.youthlaunch.org/programs/seeds.php> . Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More < http://www.natasha.cc/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 11 16:56:28 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:56:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903110446g3cef3d63q8b1ccaff951be9c4@mail.gmail.co m> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <710b78fc0903101734l31196cbaq3adf2bd0bec8a70c@mail.gmail.com> <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090310210233.02831510@satx.rr.com> <580930c20903110446g3cef3d63q8b1ccaff951be9c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090311115245.0261a208@satx.rr.com> At 12:46 PM 3/11/2009 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: >Now, cryonic suspension would not serve any conceivable purpose in >this respect. > >It would not allow us to "cure" people who were never insane in the >first place, nor, admitting that expectation of resurrectin becomes >widespread, it could be seen as a factor significantly altering what >is perceived as the most convenient course of action by those >contemplating crime as an option. The obvious irony (for any number of science fiction stories, I suspect, including one of my own) is that *denial* of cryonic suspension would be the most dire threat in a world where resurrection and rejuvenation is a serious expectation. "Grow old and die, then rot, you bastard!" Damien Broderick From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 11 20:09:56 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> Message-ID: <452563.50698.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/10/09, spike wrote: > Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, and reanimated > at such time as we understand how to cure the condition which led to > the capital crime. It seems you would reject retribution as a reason for punishment. Yes? A convicted murderer frozen in 2009 might awaken to a much more wonderful world in 2109. -gts From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 11 20:38:08 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:38:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> Il 10/03/2009 12.29, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 3:14 AM, spike wrote: >> Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. That is why Saddam >> tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it would scare Iran >> away from attacking. > Really?! Any source at hand? > My personal recollection is that not only was such a claim wildly > implausible, owing inter alia the embargo and disarray of Iraq after > the first Gulf War, but that Iraqi authorities have always adamantly > denied the possession of any kind of WMD. They denied possession of prohibited weapons (prohibited by the truce hey accepted to sign). They were caught many times with prohibited weapons and stopping UN inspectors doing their job. Why do we seacrh for more complications than is needed? Saddam was a pain for too many people; he overstepped the limits imposed on him. He paid for this and lose power. Apart for this, the US forces found and recovered tonnes of Yellowcake after the war. And people have very few uses for Yellowcake. Mirco From artillo at comcast.net Wed Mar 11 21:03:30 2009 From: artillo at comcast.net (artillo at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:03:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <1716178782.5595291236805211284.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <958665990.5596691236805410868.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Demolition Man anyone??? :D Probably one of the cheesiest dystopian movies ever made, outside of Soylent Green of course! I think I would prefer lifelong banishment to a prison colony somewhere remote, and sterilization if they were sex offenders. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Swobe" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:09:56 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [ExI] What is Grace? --- On Tue, 3/10/09, spike wrote: > Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, and reanimated > at such time as we understand how to cure the condition which led to > the capital crime. It seems you would reject retribution as a reason for punishment. Yes? A convicted murderer frozen in 2009 might awaken to a much more wonderful world in 2109. -gts _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Frankmac at ripco.com Wed Mar 11 23:13:50 2009 From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:13:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA Message-ID: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> Just recently GOOGLE stock closed under 300 dollars. As almost 85% of web searching is done via it, there stood no reason for this decline from 600 dollars a few months ago. While trying to find out why , I know the market has crashed but this company has 85% market share, I ran across this article concerning WOLFRAM ALPHA which stated that it will be the new GOOGLE. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-answers-to-factual-questions-this-is-going-to-be-big/ Thought I would share it with you Frank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 01:24:38 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:24:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] NASA Inspector General under fire Message-ID: <2d6187670903111824h15959c16g4e9e88238fcadba8@mail.gmail.com> Members of congress are complaining the guy is more of a lapdog than a watchdog, and with NASA getting more money under the Obama administration, they want him replaced. "arrest/search warrants were obtained for NASA facilities. Mr. Cobb would question every aspect of the cases and gave the appearance he wanted to derail them before agents were given adequate time to investigate the allegations." I never imagined NCIS style law enforcement investigators being a self-policing department within NASA. Is this true? I guess I envisioned NASA employees as always behaving nobly as they expanded humanity's reach into outer space. John http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/11/siu.nasa.watchdog/?iref=mpstoryview By Abbie Boudreau and Scott Zamost CNN Special Investigations Unit *WASHINGTON (CNN)* -- Key members of Congress from both parties want NASA's internal watchdog fired, arguing he can't be trusted to oversee the $1 billion in additional money the space agency is getting under the Obama administration's economic stimulus package. [image: Lawmakers say NASA's inspector general cannot be trusted and must go.] Lawmakers say NASA's inspector general cannot be trusted and must go. Government reports dating back to 2006 have accused NASA Inspector General Robert "Moose" Cobb of ineffectiveness, of profanely berating employees and being too close to the agency's leadership. Calls for his ouster have intensified in the past month, since NASA is getting additional stimulus money for space exploration, research, and aeronautics. "Apparently, Mr. Cobb thought he was supposed to be the lap dog, rather than the watchdog, of NASA," Rep. Bart Gordon, D-Tennessee, told CNN. Gordon, chairman of the House Committee on Science and Technology, has asked President Obama to remove Cobb. In a letter co-authored by Rep. Brad Miller, D-North Carolina, who leads the House Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight, the lawmakers argue that "NASA cannot afford another four years with an ineffective inspector general." [image: Video] Watch NASA watchdog under fire ? "It's incredibly ironic for members of Congress who have scolded the inspector general for lousy oversight to dump a billion dollars into the agency," said Pete Sepp, vice president of the National Taxpayers Union, a nonprofit, nonpartisan watchdog group that monitors government spending. "The first thing you do when you're digging a hole is to stop digging. Congress doesn't seem to get that message." Cobb declined two requests from CNN to respond to the complaints. In December 2008, the Government Accountability Office released a report that criticized how Cobb was running the inspector general's office. The GAO, the investigative arm of Congress, "found that Mr. Cobb is one of the least productive IGs in the federal government," Gordon and Miller wrote. Don't Miss - GAO full report on auditing NASA - NASA delays launch of shuttle Discovery - Behind the scenes at Kennedy Space Center "His monetary accomplishments reflect a return of just 36 cents for every dollar budgeted for his office. This compares with an average of $9.49 returned for every dollar spent on other IGs' offices. The main reason for this failure is that NASA's audit operation is not working." Gordon told CNN that Cobb's "own peers said he wasn't doing his job, that he didn't understand the audit process and that he was not carrying out the investigation process. As a matter of fact, he was slowing it down, or even stopping it." And Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, agreed that Cobb must be replaced. "Inspectors general are the first line of defense against the waste of taxpayers' money," Grassley told CNN. "And, if he's not doing his job, and you stick another billion dollars into it, then you just know there's another billion dollars that there could be a lot of waste of it." A 2006 investigation by a presidential integrity council found Cobb "engaged in abuse of authority" and had a "close relationship" with former NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe that "compromised" his independence. The two played golf together and took official trips together on NASA aircraft. Read investigative integrity report (Warning: Report contains explicit language) The committee also found that Cobb "engaged in an abuse of authority" through his "habitual use of profanity," and recommended disciplinary action "up to and including removal," Gordon and Miller wrote. Cobb defended himself at a 2007 congressional hearing, arguing that he had upheld his oath of office. "At NASA, I have taken the responsibilities of office under the Inspector General Act seriously and without compromise to root out and prevent fraud, waste and abuse, and to promote the economy and efficiency of the agency," he said. "I've worked with NASA management in the manner contemplated by the Inspector General Act." But former staffers told the committee that Cobb created a disturbing work environment. "One of my early experiences with Mr. Cobb was so disturbing that I considered leaving the OIG almost immediately afterwards," said Debra Herzog, former deputy assistant inspector-general for investigations. "At a scheduled weekly meeting, Mr. Cobb, in front of his deputy and my supervisor, berated me concerning a word in a letter. In an ensuing monologue, loudly peppered with profanities, Mr. Cobb insulted and ridiculed me," Herzog recounted. Lance Carrington, the former assistant inspector general for investigations, told the panel that "in many investigative cases, Mr. Cobb appeared to have a lack of independence when NASA officials were subjects, or if arrest/search warrants were obtained for NASA facilities. Mr. Cobb would question every aspect of the cases and gave the appearance he wanted to derail them before agents were given adequate time to investigate the allegations." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 01:32:11 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:32:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA In-Reply-To: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> Message-ID: <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Frank McElligott wrote: > Just recently GOOGLE stock closed under 300 dollars. As almost 85% of web > searching is done via it, there stood no reason for this decline from 600 > dollars a few months ago. > > While trying to find out why , I know the market has crashed but this > company has 85% market share, I ran across this article concerning WOLFRAM > ALPHA which stated that it will be the new GOOGLE. > > http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-answers-to-factual-questions-this-is-going-to-be-big/ > Thought I would share it with you > > I'm skeptical of anything that claims to be the new _something that already exists_. dude 1: "It's like sliced bread, only better... because the slices go in another dimension" dude 2: "Isn't that just another kind of sliced bread?" dude 1: "No, this is awesomer... 'cuz it's new." The next interface to internet content will be some of google, some of a dozen other ideas and some kind of fledgling not-quite-yet-AI to glue all the existing pieces together. WolframAlpha is no doubt high profile (with status and funding to match). However, these guys have also been at it for a while: http://www.trueknowledge.com/ How many other efforts exist that are either entirely private or simply underadvertised? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 12 01:56:51 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:56:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <452563.50698.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <2CFBD5F38BE345559C173B5E8712EFD9@spike> <452563.50698.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9A30A4000DFB4DD2852328AA297FB2F7@spike> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Gordon Swobe > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:10 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] What is Grace? > > > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, spike wrote: > > > Criminals convicted of capital crimes should be frozen, and > reanimated > > at such time as we understand how to cure the condition > which led to > > the capital crime. > > It seems you would reject retribution as a reason for > punishment. Yes? > > A convicted murderer frozen in 2009 might awaken to a much > more wonderful world in 2109. > > -gts I do. I see prison primarily as a societal safety mechanism. Example, a common street thug steals fifty dollars with a knife while a financier steals fifty billion with a smile. If I could choose only one to lock up, it would be the knifer, for she is the one who presents a clear and present danger to me (and thee) if she is allowed to run in the streets. A frozen murderer concerns me not at all, nor do I worry it might be a reward in a sense. If we freeze murderers, we must offer the dewar to volunteers as well. Nowthen, I wouldn't object if the financier were to be "invited" to attend a rally of those who lost their money. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 12 03:30:45 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:30:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike><580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> Message-ID: > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 3:14 AM, spike wrote: > >> Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. That is why > >> Saddam tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it > >> would scare Iran away from attacking. > > > Really?! Any source at hand? Stefano > > Hi Stefano, if you believe cBS, here ya go. Their credibility is in the mud, not highly regarded in this country, but I see no reason to doubt the word of Piro, who agrees with Tenet (who also has some serious credibility problems): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml The mainstream press never did talk much about the Piro story, even though it has a ring of truth to it. 60 Minutes of course is the same "news" program that ran the bogus Bush military records story, by the disgraced former "news" anchor Dan Rather, so discount as you see fit. Please, anyone here who wishes to comment, did you know of Piro's report? I have talked to several well-informed people who never heard of it. Here is an excerpt from Piro's 60 Minutes interview. Piro had been in charge of questioning Saddam in prison. FBI agent Piro is talking to Scott Pelley of 60 Minutes: ....That June 2000 speech was about weapons of mass destruction. In talking casually about that speech, Saddam began to tell the story of his weapons. It was a breakthrough that had taken five months. "Oh, you couldn't imagine the excitement that I was feeling at that point," Piro remembers. "And what did he tell you about how his weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed?" Pelley asks. "He told me that most of the WMD had been destroyed by the U.N. inspectors in the '90s. And those that hadn't been destroyed by the inspectors were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq," Piro says. "So why keep the secret? Why put your nation at risk, why put your own life at risk to maintain this charade?" Pelley asks. "It was very important for him to project that because that was what kept him, in his mind, in power. That capability kept the Iranians away. It kept them from reinvading Iraq," Piro says. Before his wars with America, Saddam had fought a ruinous eight year war with Iran and it was Iran he still feared the most. "He believed that he couldn't survive without the perception that he had weapons of mass destruction?" Pelley asks. "Absolutely," Piro says. "As the U.S. marched toward war and we began massing troops on his border, why didn't he stop it then? And say, 'Look, I have no weapons of mass destruction.' I mean, how could he have wanted his country to be invaded?" Pelley asks. "He didn't. But he told me he initially miscalculated President Bush. And President Bush's intentions. He thought the United States would retaliate with the same type of attack as we did in 1998 under Operation Desert Fox. Which was a four-day aerial attack. So you expected that initially," Piro says. Piro says Saddam expected some kind of an air campaign and that he could he survive that. "He survived that once. And then he was willing to accept that type of attack. That type of damage," he says. "Saddam didn't believe that the United States would invade," Pelley remarks. "Not initially, no," Piro says. "Once it was clear to him that there was going to be an invasion of the country. I mean, did he actually believe that his armies could win?" Pelley asks. "No," Piro says. "What he had asked of his military leaders and senior government officials was to give him two weeks. And at that point it would go into what he called the secret war." "The secret war. What did he mean?" Pelley asks. "Going from a conventional to an unconventional war," Piro says. "So the insurgency was part of his plan from the very beginning," Pelley remarks. "Well, he would like to take credit for the insurgency," Piro says. Central to that insurgency were Saddam's sons, that is, before they were killed by U.S. forces... From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 03:29:41 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? Message-ID: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/11/09, spike wrote: >> It seems you would reject retribution as a reason for >> punishment. Yes? > I do. I see prison primarily as a societal safety > mechanism. Okay, just wondering. I think we incarcerate or execute criminals for one or more of the following reasons: 1) retribution (we should make them suffer for what they did) 2) rehabilitation (we should heal them and make them productive citizens) 3) deterrence (we should prevent them from re-offending, and make them an example to others) I know of no other reasons for treating the guilty different from the innocent. Do you? Some time ago, perhaps a year ago, I started a thread here in which I argued, along lines similar to yours, that retribution has no place in an enlightened society. On this view we ought punish the guilty only for reasons of rehabilitation or deterrence or both. I offered my best arguments against retribution, but frankly I'm not certain they held water. > A frozen murderer concerns me not at all, nor do I worry it might be > a reward in a sense. Ah but therein lies the rub: in what way would cryonic-prison deter crime? If as you say it might be a "reward in a sense", then wouldn't it encourage crime? I suspect many would-be criminals would find cryonic-prison an attractive option to an honest but difficult life. And in what way would it rehabilitate the guilty? -gts From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 04:10:46 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903110446g3cef3d63q8b1ccaff951be9c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <52452.157.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > I have the feeling that especially in the US many > "hardliners" see criminal sentences as a form of biblical > retribution ("you did the crime, you do the time"), and > the convicted felon as a sinner; Yes. I did a little study of this subject some time ago and found it surprising that some philosophers argue for retribution not on behalf of the victim, but rather on behalf of the criminal. On this view retributive justice provides the criminal an opportunity to do penance. He finds absolution through suffering. -gts From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 12 05:11:58 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:11:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1921B748317A438BA2E3A2D67A8B9E00@MyComputer> Mike Dougherty Wrote: > I'm skeptical That is certainly a healthy attitude and it all may indeed turn out to be total crap; however it does have one thing in it's favor, Wolfram has proven that he has the ability to write astoundingly good software, I'm talking about jaw dropping stuff. Time will tell if he's done it again, I wish him luck. John K Clark From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 12 11:11:21 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:11:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? (now turned into a cryonics for prisoners debate) Message-ID: <146266.42262.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Damien wrote "The obvious irony (for any number of science fiction stories, I suspect, including one of my own) is that *denial* of cryonic suspension would be the most dire threat in a world where resurrection and rejuvenation is a serious expectation. "Grow old and die, then rot, you bastard!"" Indeed, in Clifford D Simak's "Why call them back from heaven", the book opens with a maintenance technician being tried for negligence as his poor maintenance on an ambulance meant a fatally injured person could not be cryonically preserved. He is found guilty, and is sentenced to be denied cryonic preservation - so he will die, eventually. Over the course of the story, he meets Christians who refuse the cryonic treatment, hears conspiracy theories about problems with the process, and tracks down a missing scientist who's discovered there's no way of housing all the people waiting to be revived. Overall, it's the most well-written critique of a society embracing cryonics en masse that I've read. I just checked the amazon entry: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Call-Them-Back-Heaven/dp/0380505754 and the citations section says the only book to have quoted this is "Great Mambo chicken and the transhuman condition." Tom From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 12:20:32 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:20:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <52452.157.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <580930c20903110446g3cef3d63q8b1ccaff951be9c4@mail.gmail.com> <52452.157.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Yes. I did a little study of this subject some time ago and found it > surprising that some philosophers argue for retribution not on behalf of the victim, but rather > on behalf of the criminal. On this view retributive justice provides the criminal an > opportunity to do penance. He finds absolution through suffering. > I regard that as a post-hoc rationalization. As in "society is stuck with this bloated mess we call prisons, we cannot and wil not resort to large scale euthanasia or torture as a deterrant to crime, nor can we expulse criminals (banishment) because that would export criminals (and they might benefit from emigration) - plus ... 1- we cannot guarantee we can deter all crimes, even with the most brutal of punishments; 2- we cannot guarantee we can deter all crimes, because we do not have the required societal resources; 3- not all convicted are guilty; 4- not all found not guilty are innocent; 5- democracy implies that civilians WILL protest by vote radicalization if they feel the legal system doesn't produce safety; 6- democracy implies that civilians WILL protest by vote radicalization if societal resources does not enact vengeance in their name. 7- those who paid their debt to society become second-class citizens, increasing the odds they will transgress again. hence we accept the twoheaded retard called incarceration as the compromise from Hell. It produces career criminals; people who have been habitually exposed to years of institutional sodomy and rape ( I wouldn't trust a regular convict about as much as a rapist - who knows what happened to him, or what he did in prison?) and worst of all - it has a high error rate on all sides. My first concern is to chart what causes crime, and why we label certain behaviors crimes and address those issues. If there is genetic imperfection or some disease (toxoplasmosis?) at play, we address those issues. Next we protect victims. Third we try and reduce what we regard as crimes. I do not think there is any morally defensive position to lock up half a million people for possession of cannabis. For me the end conclusion is that we must humanely neutralize the capacity of career criminals. The most humane treatment I can envision is wireheading them and place them in a protected environment, feed and clothe them and let them stare at the pretty lights. It is uncomfortably close to lobotomization, but I personally do not see many moral and practical alternatives. For now I regard freezing them a death sentence. I do not believe current freezing techniques will create recoverable humans. Partial reconstructions at best, no better than a clone with some extra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:22:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:22:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903120622s37242990g3509b18b773283cb@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:30 AM, spike wrote: > Hi Stefano, if you believe cBS, here ya go. ?Their credibility is in the > mud, not highly regarded in this country, but I see no reason to doubt the > word of Piro, who agrees with Tenet (who also has some serious credibility > problems): > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml Why, irrespective of credibility, all that sounds as inferences. I was under the impression that the allegation was that some Iraqui officer had claimed that his country was actually able to defend itself with WMD - a claim which would have probably been made, if this were the case... I am instead inclined to believe that the US administration attacked Iraq because it was persuaded that Iraq did *non* have such weapons. Not that Iraq would have really been in the position to develop them to a point where they would have made a difference anyway,.. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:25:10 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:25:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA In-Reply-To: <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903120625re656a94xefc386661325d18a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > I'm skeptical of anything that claims to be the new _something that already > exists_. > dude 1: "It's like sliced bread, only better... because the slices go in > another dimension" > dude 2: "Isn't that just another kind of sliced bread?" > dude 1: "No, this is awesomer... 'cuz it's new." :-) > WolframAlpha is no doubt high profile (with status and funding to match). > However, these guys have also been at it for a while: > http://www.trueknowledge.com/ I am usually fond of Wolfram ideas and projects, but I cannot really say that I could understand what Alpha is really about, besides buzzwords, innuendos and hype. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:36:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:36:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:29 AM, Gordon Swobe wrote: > I think we incarcerate or execute criminals for one or more of the following reasons: > > 1) retribution (we should make them suffer for what they did) > 2) rehabilitation (we should heal them and make them productive citizens) > 3) deterrence (we should prevent them from re-offending, and make them an example to others) At least in western societies, criminal sentences serve somewhat unofficially an additional purpose, namely the more or less temporary elimination of people who are perceived as dangerous or asocial from society. This is of course hypocritical and distorsive, since it should be dealt with if anything not on the basis of crimes allegedly already perpetrated and their gravity, but on the basis of potential future damages. -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 12 14:56:46 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:56:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.co m> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090312094849.025f43c8@satx.rr.com> At 02:36 PM 3/12/2009 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: >At least in western societies, criminal sentences serve somewhat >unofficially an additional purpose, namely the more or less temporary >elimination of people who are perceived as dangerous or asocial from >society. > >This is of course hypocritical and distorsive, since it should be >dealt with if anything not on the basis of crimes allegedly already >perpetrated and their gravity, but on the basis of potential future >damages. And as Dagon stressed in his excellent post, the current system actually *increases* potential future damages, through brutalization and creating an environment that (very expensively) *teaches* humans how best to be criminals. And doing this to many tens or hundreds of thousands of people whose "crime" is to choose cannabis over more dangerous mood modifiers is truly, grotesquely absurd. Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 17:05:03 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:05:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] moral ambiguity, was: What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091341j1cf0e806n7137eaa9e2fa0b75@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309160148.02820468@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090309235847.0261b560@satx.rr.com> <5C92458E841F4E4EB25605530ED1C9B1@spike> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:59 PM, spike wrote: > ?The US invasion stopped a war between Iran and Iraq, Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Good one, Spike. Total knee-slapper. Yee ha! Best, Jeff Davis "We call someone insane who does not believe as we do to an outrageous extent." Charles McCabe From scerir at libero.it Thu Mar 12 17:36:51 2009 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:36:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] technish References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike><580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com><49B82130.2030405@libero.it> <580930c20903120622s37242990g3509b18b773283cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c9a339$243e0f00$fa074797@archimede> the holo-tv, a screen projects images that seem to float in mid-air ... (see the video) http://www.physorg.com/news156072878.html and another 3-dim/augmented-reality gadget http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/319/ From jrd1415 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 17:56:23 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:56:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <958665990.5596691236805410868.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1716178782.5595291236805211284.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <958665990.5596691236805410868.JavaMail.root@sz0062a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:03 PM, wrote: > ...I think I would prefer lifelong banishment to a prison colony somewhere > remote... Hear, hear ! (or is it "here, here"?) No need to kill anyone. Send 'em all to some island somewhere. Men and women both. No radio, no internet, no boats, no planes. Let them disappear from our lawful (such as it is) society, never to be heard from again. Good-bye and good luck. No hard feelings. Their descendents -- innocent of any crime -- can then apply for rentry in the larger society as speedo-wearing Sci Fi writers, crocodile hunters, and IT professionals. Excellent suggestion, Artillo. Best, Jeff Davis "Death is really just an engineering problem." Regina Pancake From moulton at moulton.com Thu Mar 12 18:38:51 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:38:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 60 Second Video Message-ID: <1236883131.6793.3241.camel@hayek> How we got here in just 60 seconds http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_evolution_of_life_in_60_seconds/ From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 20:59:37 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:59:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090312094849.025f43c8@satx.rr.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090312094849.025f43c8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903121359n31a97a6bo2afe2ba9dde401e2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Damien Broderick > And as Dagon stressed in his excellent post, the current system actually > *increases* potential future damages, through brutalization and creating an > environment that (very expensively) *teaches* humans how best to be > criminals. And doing this to many tens or hundreds of thousands of people > whose "crime" is to choose cannabis over more dangerous mood modifiers is > truly, grotesquely absurd. Indeed. -- Stefano Vaj From jrd1415 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:32:50 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:32:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, spike wrote: > > BillK, to compare the death rate before and after the invasion and counting > the difference as deaths due to war is exactly why the Lancet lost a lot of > credibility. Spike, spike, spike! Where ARE you coming up with this stuff? The Lancet lost credibility?!?!?! With whom,?, Cheney, Rice, and Limbaugh? Show me some sources. George Bush shows up on the tube and says, "Their methodology has been discredited." Where's his Nobel prize? Puleeese. He's the clown with the non-existent credibility. Everyone who isn't a creation scientist (is this oxymoron or just plain moron) acknowledges that the two Lancet studies were conducted using what has been referred to as "best practice". > > Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. What? I mean .......WHAT!!!??? I've been following this business quite closely since day one and this is the first I've heard of this alleged 2002 imminent war between Iran and Iraq. And I haven't had a 9 to 5 and a newborn to distract me. Sources, bro, sources (non-Israeli, non-Murdoch). I forgive you bro, but you gotta get out more. Outta the Lock-Mart echo chamber. >?That is why Saddam > tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it would scare Iran > away from attacking. So let me get this straight:The aformentioned unsourced fantastical assertion of a looming-in-2002 war between Iran and Iraq, has Iran in the aggressor's role? Source it, bro. Otherwise it has to be filed as the fever dream of a fact-indifferent neo-con Iran basher. > Saddam played a gambit, knowing that France, Germany > and Russia would veto an invasion because they had illegally carried on > weapons trade with Iraq while under UN sanction. Ex-post-facto France, Russia, and Germany bashing which you no doubt got from someone still pissy about F, R, and G's refusal to toady along with GB's faith-based ego-driven "Let's-take-America-over-the-Cliff" invasion plan. Sounds thoroughly neo-con to me. More clues. Give me more clues. Your source is no realist. A realist would have said that F, G, and R opposed the invasion because they were first in line -- and the US and Britain not in the running -- for contracts to rebuild Iraq and exploit its oil after the lifting of sanctions. >?The US threatened to invade anyways, fearing Saddam really had nukes. Nukes was the sales gimmick. Where you been for the last 5-6 years? > Saddam bet Bush was > bluffing, Bush bet Saddam wasn't. ?Both were wrong. ?(Source: Tenet, Eye of > the Storm. ?He was there, and he was in charge of the intelligence as head > of the CIA, and he uttered the infamous "slam dunk" comment that Saddam had > nukes.) George Tenet. Now there's a guy with credibility. He presides over the CIA's failure re 9/11, and then becomes Bush's bitch out of gratitude for not being held to account. Has anyone else noticed this pattern? GB loves super-screw-ups (like himself). Nothing compares to the unswerving loyalty of a screw-up desperate to avoid accountability. > > But since Bush invaded, Iran didn't. ?So the Lancet should estimate how many > would have perished had Iran attacked. ?Then the number of deaths from the > invasion would be negative several million. ?Who even has a good guess how > many millions of lives were saved? ?Now of course, if Iran and Israel go at > each other with nukes, we can argue that had Iran fought Iraq in 2003, then > Iran would be in no condition to take on Israel today. I have to apologize. I was taking you seriously. Obviously you've been talking about some Fox made-for-tv movie, right?. Excuse me, please. I should have read through the thread more carefully. Best, Jeff Davis "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron..." H. L. Mencken From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 13 03:48:41 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:48:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Jeff Davis .... > > > > Recall that Iraq was facing a war with Iran in 2002. > > What? I mean .......WHAT!!!??? I've been following this > business quite closely since day one and this is the first > I've heard of this alleged 2002 imminent war between Iran and > Iraq... >From Piro's interview with Scott Pelley: "And what did he tell you about how his weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed?" Pelley asks. "He told me that most of the WMD had been destroyed by the U.N. inspectors in the '90s. And those that hadn't been destroyed by the inspectors were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq," Piro says. "So why keep the secret? Why put your nation at risk, why put your own life at risk to maintain this charade?" Pelley asks. "It was very important for him to project that because that was what kept him, in his mind, in power. That capability kept the Iranians away. It kept them from reinvading Iraq," Piro says. Before his wars with America, Saddam had fought a ruinous eight year war with Iran and it was Iran he still feared the most. "He believed that he couldn't survive without the perception that he had weapons of mass destruction?" Pelley asks. "Absolutely," Piro says. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page4.shtml > > >?That is why Saddam > > tried to convince the world that he had nukes, so that it > >would scare Iran away from attacking. > > So let me get this straight:The aformentioned unsourced > fantastical assertion of a looming-in-2002 war between Iran > and Iraq, has Iran in the aggressor's role? Source it, bro... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page4.shtml I do find curious Piro's comment "That capability kept the Iranians away. It kept them from reinvading Iraq..." As I recall it was Iraq that invaded Iran in 1980, not the other way around. > Otherwise it has to be filed as the fever dream of a > fact-indifferent neo-con Iran basher... Or the fever dream of George Tenet, the fact-indifferent neo-con basher. Actually Tenet is an odd mixture of neo-con basher, Clinton basher and praiser (in that order), occasional self basher, Bush 43 faint praiser and basher (in that order), but in agreement with Piro. Make of his book whatever you will. I found it interesting but don't recommend it. I don't have Tenet's book in soft copy, so it is much more difficult to give references. > > Saddam bet Bush was > > bluffing, Bush bet Saddam wasn't. ?Both were wrong. ? > (Source: Tenet, Center of the Storm... > > George Tenet. Now there's a guy with credibility. He > presides over the CIA's failure re 9/11, and then becomes > Bush's bitch out of gratitude for not being held to account... Jeff this sounds like a comment by one who did not read Center of the Storm. Tenet was held to account. I am not actually recommending the book, and I agree it has some serious credibility problems, but not for being Bush's bitch. Tenet has plenty of harsh words for Bush, altho moreso for Doug Feith, Condi Rice, and especially Richard Perle (the commentary on the first page of Center, which turned out to be provably false, and for which Tenet has never apologized, retracted or offered explanation.) He also has some very damaging commentary on Bill Clinton, which is surprising, altho he seems to otherwise mostly defend Clinton's overall performance. Tenet makes the devastatingly serious accusation that Clinton ripple fired cruise missiles at nothing of importance in order to distract the media from Monica Lewinski (Center, p.116) I find this hard to believe, but Tenet offers dates of attacks and the very closely corresponding dates of the major Lewinski revelations. But Tenet thinks Clinton is a good guy. Here is the quote on Saddam from Tenet's book which predated Piro's 60 Minutes report: "We thought it implausible that someone like Saddam would risk the destruction of his regime over noncompliance with UN resolutions. What we did not account for was the mind-set never to show weakness in a very dangerous neighborhood?particularly in regard to a growing Iranian military capability. Relying on secrets by themselves, divorced from deep knowledge of cultural mind-sets and history, will take you only so far." Tenet, p.45-46 Jeff did you read Tenet's Center of the Storm? .... > > I have to apologize. I was taking you seriously. Obviously > you've been talking about some Fox made-for-tv movie, right?... Well, actually cBS. And it was 60 Minutes, a made-for-TV mock news program: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page5.shtml Piro's account is also supported by Charles Duelfer, the former weapons inspector who headed the Iraq Survey Group. > Excuse me, please. I should have read through the thread > more carefully. > > Best, Jeff Davis Well sure Jeff, but what part of this theory do you find hard to believe? Saddam feared invasion by Iran, for good reason (revenge.) The US has no diplomatic ties with Iran, so we could not know what was going on between Iran and Iraq. Recall that over a million lives were lost in the Iran-Iraq war of 1980 to 1988, and it was Iraq that invaded Iran. I can easily imagine Iran was threatening retaliation. Saddam bluffed the US by interfering with the UN weapons inspectors, expecting the US to do something like what happened before, in 1991. He expected a shock and awe campaign which would do very little actual damage to Iraq. Wreck a few of Saddam's palaces, but he had plenty of those. But this would leave Iraq at full strength to defend against Iran, or better yet prevent Iran from invading, by convincing them that Saddam was hiding nukes or other WMD (for why else would he have interfered with the UN inspectors?) This saved countless lives in that the two countries did not repeat the experience of the 1980s, which Saddam started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War Of course the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq by the US prevented a new Iran-Iraq confict, which left Iran at full strength. Everyone can see that Iran and Israel are going to go at it soon, probably before two years from now when Iran will have their own nukes. Israel is surrounded by bitter enemies and doesn't have jillions of guys to throw at Iran, so it will likely use its nukes and advanced stuff. Unless a miracle occurs, this could be horrifying. Jeff, listen to the 60 Minutes Piro interview and let us discuss this further. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml spike From jrd1415 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 06:21:25 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:21:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:48 PM, spike wrote: > Jeff, listen to the 60 Minutes Piro interview and let us discuss this > further. Looking forward to it. Hope you and Shelli are doing well. Enjoying the dad thing? Pod's highly mobile now, and talkative? House in baja's coming along. The adventure continues. It's all good. Best, Jeff Aspiring Transhuman / Delusional Ape (Take your pick) Nicq MacDonald From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 06:24:43 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:24:43 +1100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> On 13/03/2009, at 12:36 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:29 AM, Gordon Swobe > wrote: >> I think we incarcerate or execute criminals for one or more of the >> following reasons: >> >> 1) retribution (we should make them suffer for what they did) >> 2) rehabilitation (we should heal them and make them productive >> citizens) >> 3) deterrence (we should prevent them from re-offending, and make >> them an example to others) > > At least in western societies, criminal sentences serve somewhat > unofficially an additional purpose, namely the more or less temporary > elimination of people who are perceived as dangerous or asocial from > society. > > This is of course hypocritical and distorsive, since it should be > dealt with if anything not on the basis of crimes allegedly already > perpetrated and their gravity, but on the basis of potential future > damages. The question of likelihood to re-offend is a factor in sentencing. From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 08:39:15 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:39:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/13 Jeff Davis : > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, spike wrote: >> >> BillK, to compare the death rate before and after the invasion and counting >> the difference as deaths due to war is exactly why the Lancet lost a lot of >> credibility. > > > Spike, spike, spike! ?Where ARE you coming up with this stuff? The > Lancet lost credibility?!?!?! ?With whom,?, Cheney, Rice, and > Limbaugh? ?Show me some sources. I assumed what spike meant was that the fact that health statistics would deteriorate as a result of invasion was so obvious as to be of little scientific interest, and therefore the Lancet must have published the papers for some other reason, i.e. as propaganda. But maybe I misunderstood. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 13 13:38:12 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:38:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <580930c20903120622s37242990g3509b18b773283cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> <580930c20903120622s37242990g3509b18b773283cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BA61C4.8030004@libero.it> Il 12/03/2009 14.22, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:30 AM, spike wrote: >> Hi Stefano, if you believe cBS, here ya go. Their credibility is in the >> mud, not highly regarded in this country, but I see no reason to doubt the >> word of Piro, who agrees with Tenet (who also has some serious credibility >> problems): >> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494.shtml > > Why, irrespective of credibility, all that sounds as inferences. I was > under the impression that the allegation was that some Iraqui officer > had claimed that his country was actually able to defend itself with > WMD - a claim which would have probably been made, if this were the > case... > I am instead inclined to believe that the US administration attacked > Iraq because it was persuaded that Iraq did *non* have such weapons. > Not that Iraq would have really been in the position to develop them > to a point where they would have made a difference anyway,.. I'm inclined to believe that: 1) Saddam miscalculate the US intentions 2) The US miscalculate the Iraq and Saddam intentions and/or capabilities Anyone (not only Bush and Saddam) of them acted in his best interest with the informations he had at the moment. They probably were all wrong in a way or in another. Are these miscalculation important? I don't know and I don't think they were important. Iraq is better today than when it was under Saddam rule. One enemy of the west is no more in existance al-Qaeda rushed in Iraq to seize the opportunity to install an islamic / sunni / wahabbi rule there and was grinded. They losed 10x or 20x (maybe more) men than the US forces, they spent anourmous quantities of supplies and money accomplishing nothing apart to be hated and dispised by the iraqis and gaining their lasting enemity. Without the Iraq battlefield and the Afganistan one, many more resources would be free to be used in the West by the jihadist and their masters. Now, if we (West) we are able to delay Iran and the Wahabbi enough so their economies go belly up like the USSR, we could avoid a big direct conflict inside and outside our borders. If not, it will be very interesting. Mirco From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 13 13:39:23 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:39:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou ... > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, spike wrote: > >> > >> BillK, to compare the death rate before and after the invasion and > >> counting the difference as deaths due to war is exactly why the > >> Lancet lost a lot of credibility. > > ... > > I assumed what spike meant was that the fact that health > statistics would deteriorate as a result of invasion was so > obvious as to be of little scientific interest, and therefore > the Lancet must have published the papers for some other > reason, i.e. as propaganda. But maybe I misunderstood. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou Ja, either invasion, Iran or coalition. Actually it isn't at all clear how to estimate the number of deaths from any political action, but the Lancet doesn't seem to suffer from uncertainty. How does one estimate how many would have been slain had Iran and Iraq gone at it again? If we acknowledge that stopping another Iran and Iraq war has enabled the apparent upcoming larger war between Iran and Israel, how do we count that? There are plenty of amateur political commentators. The Lancet should stick to medicine and let the political jaws ratchet as they do so early and often. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 14:26:01 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 01:26:01 +1100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/14 spike : > Ja, either invasion, Iran or coalition. ?Actually it isn't at all clear how > to estimate the number of deaths from any political action, but the Lancet > doesn't seem to suffer from uncertainty. ?How does one estimate how many > would have been slain had Iran and Iraq gone at it again? ?If we acknowledge > that stopping another Iran and Iraq war has enabled the apparent upcoming > larger war between Iran and Israel, how do we count that? > > There are plenty of amateur political commentators. ?The Lancet should stick > to medicine and let the political jaws ratchet as they do so early and > often. I'm sure if Iraq were hundreds of times richer and stronger than the US and decided to invade they too would be able to come up with many good explanations as to how their actions actually helped the population or prevented a greater harm. -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 13 14:25:33 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:25:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <49BA6CDD.3020708@libero.it> Il 13/03/2009 9.39, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/3/13 Jeff Davis: >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, spike wrote: >>> BillK, to compare the death rate before and after the invasion and counting >>> the difference as deaths due to war is exactly why the Lancet lost a lot of >>> credibility. >> >> Spike, spike, spike! Where ARE you coming up with this stuff? The >> Lancet lost credibility?!?!?! With whom,?, Cheney, Rice, and >> Limbaugh? Show me some sources. > > I assumed what spike meant was that the fact that health statistics > would deteriorate as a result of invasion was so obvious as to be of > little scientific interest, and therefore the Lancet must have > published the papers for some other reason, i.e. as propaganda. But > maybe I misunderstood. The problem with health statistics is that we have not verifiable or trustable statistic about Iraq before and after the war. Anything after the 1991 is very uncertain. When Saddam was in charge he had many reason to fake the statistics in a way or in another and when he was toppled, collecting statistics was very difficult, because the land was very dangerous. Then, we could argue the fact that the Iraq war is/was a four-in-one war, where after the toppling of Saddam we have the sunni insurgents against the Shiite (Iran backed) militias against the MultiNational Force, the Iraq government forces against a very large criminal population (Saddam open the gate of the jails before the war started). What damage was only caused by the MNF? What was caused by the Jihadists? What was caused by the criminals gangs? Mirco From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Mar 13 17:39:03 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:39:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49BA61C4.8030004@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <580930c20903100429h232c4d67ja495463d55269c64@mail.gmail.com> <49B82130.2030405@libero.it> <580930c20903120622s37242990g3509b18b773283cb@mail.gmail.com> <49BA61C4.8030004@libero.it> Message-ID: <1236966367_19853@s5.cableone.net> At 06:38 AM 3/13/2009, Mirco wrote: snip >I'm inclined to believe that: > >1) Saddam miscalculate the US intentions >2) The US miscalculate the Iraq and Saddam intentions and/or capabilities > >Anyone (not only Bush and Saddam) of them acted in his best interest >with the informations he had at the moment. They probably were all >wrong in a way or in another. > >Are these miscalculation important? >I don't know and I don't think they were important. > >Iraq is better today than when it was under Saddam rule. >One enemy of the west is no more in existance >al-Qaeda rushed in Iraq to seize the opportunity to install an >islamic / sunni / wahabbi rule there and was grinded. They losed 10x >or 20x (maybe more) men than the US forces, they spent anourmous >quantities of supplies and money accomplishing nothing apart to be >hated and dispised by the iraqis and gaining their lasting enemity. > >Without the Iraq battlefield and the Afganistan one, many more >resources would be free to be used in the West by the jihadist and >their masters. > >Now, if we (West) we are able to delay Iran and the Wahabbi enough >so their economies go belly up like the USSR, we could avoid a big >direct conflict inside and outside our borders. If not, it will be >very interesting. This is a really shallow analysis for this group. Try to work out why wars in the first place and then apply it to the current situation. BTW, the expectation is that economic problems in Northern Ireland will reactivate the war there. Keith From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 13 19:58:57 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:58:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com><164A4D6828AB4F368BC985FEC2BCAC16@spike> <8AD178AA97D946018015DAA2916073F4@spike> Message-ID: <49BABB01.5060304@libero.it> Il 10/03/2009 15.41, spike ha scritto: > Ja, I find it continually amazing and appalling that the Nazis were able to > find enough guys to go along with it. It demonstrates that we humans can be > turned under certain circumstances to do monsterously evil deeds. Well, the Nazis had problems with the people carring out the exterminations in the first part of the war for sure (when they invaded Poland and the Baltic states and carried out the killings by firing squads and similar ways). The soldier in the killing squads, that were assigned to exterminate jews villagers in the Baltic states suffered in large numbers of mental breakdown that made them unfit for service and in need of health care. I remember a TV documentary where they cited a document of the Nazi commander lamenting the fact that so many soldier was shocked and ill by the killing. Also they lamented that the people more adapt to the job were sadist and cruel (probably having their own psychiatric problems). It is surely no good to let antisocial people to associate in an organized, government supported, unit. No good for their masters, for sure. I suppose a reason to switch from firing squads to gas chambers and, for the soviets, Gulags was that the killing became impersonal and easier to be carried on. It is also easier to blame starvation or climate or war or Allah will for the deads. Mirco From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 20:47:35 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:47:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: On 3/13/09, spike wrote: > Ja, either invasion, Iran or coalition. Actually it isn't at all clear how > to estimate the number of deaths from any political action, but the Lancet > doesn't seem to suffer from uncertainty. How does one estimate how many > would have been slain had Iran and Iraq gone at it again? If we acknowledge > that stopping another Iran and Iraq war has enabled the apparent upcoming > larger war between Iran and Israel, how do we count that? > > There are plenty of amateur political commentators. The Lancet should stick > to medicine and let the political jaws ratchet as they do so early and > often. > I've been away on holiday this week and just got back to the usual holiday mountain of email! It makes you frightened to go on holiday. :) Spike, you are speculating about Saddam's possible thinking and double bluffs. Piro is repeating what Saddam (the master manipulator) chose to tell him as a justification for his gross mistakes. You are speculating that Iran was in a fit state to think that they could successfully invade Iraq in 2002. (They weren't). After the disastrous Iran-Iraq war, Iran politics was forced to change. From 2000 to 2003 Iran had a more friendly relationship with Iraq than ever before. The Lancet is trying to deal with real numbers and real people. What actually happened, not speculation. You can speculate that anything worse *might* have happened, but 'might-have-been's cannot compare with real deaths. This is the logic that says that it is right to nuke a few Muslim cities, because in the long-term it might mean fewer wars and fewer deaths. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 20:55:07 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:55:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903131355id79ab3aw5db1287529457ee@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 9:47 PM, BillK wrote: > After the disastrous Iran-Iraq war, Iran politics was forced to > change. From 2000 to 2003 Iran had a more friendly relationship with > Iraq than ever before. Why should Iran ever have invaded Iraq? After all, Iraqi airforce escaped in Iraq during first Gulf War to avoid destruction by the US. And if Pasdarans disliked Saddam Hussein, it was way better to wait for his former American friends and allies to remove his regime at their care and (monetary and political) expenses than to embark in such an unpopulary military adventure... -- Stefano Vaj From jrd1415 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 21:15:14 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:15:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:39 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > I assumed what spike meant was that the fact that health statistics > would deteriorate as a result of invasion was so obvious as to be of > little scientific interest, I think it disingenuous to suggest that since a scientifically prestigious organization applied scientific methods in the course of an inquiry, that a novel result of scientific interest was the goal. Scientific methods were used to insure the accuracy of the result and the consequent acceptance by others of that result on account of it's rigor. The intent of the study -- in terms of data --was to find out how many people were killed by the "war", not new scientific truth. > and therefore the Lancet must have > published the papers for some other reason, i.e. as propaganda. Was the Lancet study undertaken by opponents of the war for the purpose of turning public opinion against it? I'm inclined to agree. But absent some corruption of the methodology, that does nothing to invalidate the result of the study. And if it is propaganda, is it truthful? And is there a difference between this thing we're calling propaganda when it's based on truth, and when it's based on the debasement of truth? Of course there is, we know there is, and we know what it is. It's the fundamental difference between right and wrong, between those who lie and those who tell the truth. Between those who have credibility and those who have none. Between the good guys and the bad guys. We're six years down the road now, and anyone can know the truth who cares to. In a democracy the triggerman-in-chief is elected. Thus the importance of an informed electorate. Thus the importance of a free press. Thus the importance of open government. Thus the importance of truthfulness. No need to rehash the events of the last eight years. You ought to be able to say with some confidence who was truthful and who was not, who is credible and who is not. The Bush cabal, or Lancet? I leave it to you. I hope I don't sound too pissy about this, the last eight years have been hard. It's not personal. Best, Jeff Davis "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 21:37:59 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:37:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903131437q19baaa76qd392a3790e5d8383@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >The intent of the study -- in terms of data --was to find out > how many people were killed by the "war", not new scientific truth. In principle, the interest of such a "quantitative" study in so broadly general terms is equivalent to that of a study on how many more orgasms per year can be attributed to the invention of the pill. Something which OTOH I never fail to find bizarre is the typically western idea idea that nations may actually be immediately better off once bombed, vanquished, invaded, occupied, economically colonised and to some extent exterminated. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Sat Mar 14 00:23:41 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:23:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis .... > ...the last eight years have been hard... Jeff Davis Jeff, if you think those were hard, wait till you see the next eight. The 00s in retrospect will look like a Sunday picnic once several of the middle eastern hardliners get nukes. Keith's model on what causes humans to go to war causes me much distress, for even I the unreasonable optimist, see major trouble a-brewing. spike From spike66 at att.net Sat Mar 14 00:13:19 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:13:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > ... > > I hope I don't sound too pissy about this, the last eight > years have been hard. It's not personal. > > Best, Jeff Davis Jeff, we know it is nothing personal, just business. Your forthrightness, passion and mastery of the language are greatly appreciated and admired here, even by those of us who disagree in some details with your views. Always be yourself pal. You are our favorite you. spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Mar 14 03:50:20 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:50:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> At 05:23 PM 3/13/2009, spike wrote: > > > ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis >.... > > ...the last eight years have been hard... Jeff Davis > >Jeff, if you think those were hard, wait till you see the next eight. The >00s in retrospect will look like a Sunday picnic once several of the middle >eastern hardliners get nukes. > >Keith's model on what causes humans to go to war causes me much distress, >for even I the unreasonable optimist, see major trouble a-brewing. It's not foreordained. The model make the case that when human populations grow faster than the economy a behavioral psychological switch from the stone age gets flipped that puts a population on the road to war. Originally, when stones were high tech and human population group sizes were limited by how far people had to walk in a day to find something to eat, this was a decent strategy (from a gene's viewpoint). Nuclear weapons or even machine guns make this a sub optimal strategy--especially if you are the technologically weaker group. Iran has a decent chance of becoming a peaceful country having reduced its population growth to under 1% in the past decade. It is not at all clear how this happened, but it is probably culturally dependant. Iran's culture is Persian, not Arabic. Iran 1.87 children per woman (2008) Gaza 5.19 children born/woman (2008 est.) Of course a sharp economic downturn can switch on war mode, i.e., Germany pre WWII. Keith From spike66 at att.net Sat Mar 14 05:25:47 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:25:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike><6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson >... > > Iran has a decent chance of becoming a peaceful country > having reduced its population growth to under 1% in the past decade. > > It is not at all clear how this happened, but it is probably > culturally dependant. Iran's culture is Persian, not Arabic. > > Iran 1.87 children per woman (2008) > > Gaza 5.19 children born/woman (2008 est.) > > Of course a sharp economic downturn can switch on war mode, > i.e., Germany pre WWII. > > Keith Keith, there is something about the psychology of war theory that has been making me squirmy for some time. It seems at times to underaccount for other factors leading to war. I agree the rising population or reducing resources leads to war, but we have a whole mess of other stuff that comes into play as well, such as written history of past grievances. This is especially true if the written history is considered sacred writings, and includes specific instructions regarding how the believer should deal with non-believers. Iran has population growth under control and is Persian. These are good and promising factors in their favor, yet they are ruled by an apparent madman, which is bad. If nukes are not fired in anger in the next decade I will be most pleasantly surprised. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 14 05:59:26 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:59:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090314005401.02848b28@satx.rr.com> At 10:25 PM 3/13/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >Iran has population growth under control and is Persian. These are good and >promising factors in their favor, yet they are ruled by an apparent madman, >which is bad. I haven't read a psychiatric evaluation of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, but his fatwa against nuclear weapons states, as you know, that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons is forbidden under Islam. This might be wicked deception, but then I haven't heard of many apparent non-madmen supreme leaders in the West who've published declarations that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons is forbidden under Christianity, capitalism or democracy. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Mar 14 05:39:13 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 22:39:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A talk I am giving this weekend Message-ID: <1237009578_24474@s7.cableone.net> This is a warm up for a talk next week at Stanford. One line review: "Starts on CO2 and moves into SSP with very aggressive program based on a novel, but plausible, launch technique." Presentation slide here: http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/library/CO2andSpaceResources.ppt Comments welcome. And the President ? who said he would cap emissions during the campaign ? has included $646 billion in revenue in his budget from carbon sales between 2012 and 2019. Sheesh. We could fund this on carbon credits alone! Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Mar 14 06:32:14 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:32:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> Message-ID: <1237012759_23636@s8.cableone.net> At 10:25 PM 3/13/2009, you wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of hkhenson > >... > > > > Iran has a decent chance of becoming a peaceful country > > having reduced its population growth to under 1% in the past decade. > > > > It is not at all clear how this happened, but it is probably > > culturally dependant. Iran's culture is Persian, not Arabic. > > > > Iran 1.87 children per woman (2008) > > > > Gaza 5.19 children born/woman (2008 est.) > > > > Of course a sharp economic downturn can switch on war mode, > > i.e., Germany pre WWII. > > > > Keith > >Keith, there is something about the psychology of war theory that has been >making me squirmy for some time. It seems at times to underaccount for >other factors leading to war. You might be right, but I make the case that the ultimate causative factor is the average population perception of a bleak future. You might recall that simpler theories are to be preferred to more complex ones. >I agree the rising population or reducing >resources leads to war, but we have a whole mess of other stuff that comes >into play as well, such as written history of past grievances. This is >especially true if the written history is considered sacred writings, and >includes specific instructions regarding how the believer should deal with >non-believers. That's certainly true. But the point of the theory is that *some* xenophobic meme or meme set will come to dominate thinking if there is to be a war. I view religions (between wars) as seed xenophobic memes. They are not acted on unless the population sees hard times a-coming. There may be a genetic advantage to being able to keep seed xenophobic memes going in your local population. >Iran has population growth under control and is Persian. These are good and >promising factors in their favor, yet they are ruled by an apparent madman, >which is bad. Yeah, but it is interesting that the madman's pronouncements about raising the birth rate had zero effect on the Iranian women. >If nukes are not fired in anger in the next decade I will be >most pleasantly surprised. Especially since in a totally pissed off state I reduced the difficulty of making nukes by an order of magnitude or more. Keith >spike From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Mar 14 14:30:45 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:30:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> Message-ID: <49BBBF95.50704@libero.it> Il 13/03/2009 15.26, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > I'm sure... This is faith. Be sure without proof. Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 14:41:15 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:41:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49BBBF95.50704@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <49BBBF95.50704@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/15 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 13/03/2009 15.26, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > >> I'm sure... > > This is faith. > Be sure without proof. You mean if Iraq invaded the US you don't think they'd be able to come up with a fine-sounding excuse? They'd just say, We did it because we're bastards? -- Stathis Papaioannou From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Mar 14 15:54:48 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:54:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BBD348.2060703@libero.it> Il 09/03/2009 21.31, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:03 AM, John Grigg wrote: >> >>> I realize you are a European, but still, you associate the U.S. involvement >>> with Iraq and Afghanistan as being on par with the Nazi SS atrocities of >>> WW2??? I would say that is REALLY pushing it. > > I take a much less moralising attitude, but I am always surprised how > Americans always expect to be judged by different meters and > parameters, whatever they do, from everybody else. This is interesting question. I would say that, whatever be our judgement, the real difference is that the US do and other talk. If we don't like what they do or how they do it, we could do it ourselves or shut up. > How should one who is bombed, vanquished and invaded should rejoice > and welcome the army of occupation as some sort of eschatological > messiahs? I remember that italians were bombed, invaded and vanquished by the Allies but they were happy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jNYwUxRF2I In Rome were dopped 4.000 bombs (around 1.060 tons), caused aroud 3.000 deads and 11.000 wounded in a single day (19 July 1943). Maybe depend on who is the invader and what are its intentions. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Mar 14 17:35:12 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:35:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BBEAD0.7010808@libero.it> Il 10/03/2009 22.35, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > Gore might well have kept focus on OBL and prevented 911, but the > economic house of cards? I think that blind-sided everyone. > My question is, How could that have happened? I mean the boom and > bust pattern is all but cliche, totally predictable, so where is the > structural defect in "the system" that directs/enables humans to drive > over the same cliff again and again? The two bigger structural defecs of the economy in the modern developed world are: 1) Fiat money 2) Fractional reserve banking. Fiat money let governments (via central banks) to inflate the credit and lower the interest rates of loans, fueling an economic expansion in the short time and an economic recession in the long time. But the politicians are interested mainly in their short time political gains and not in the long time economic gains of their electors. The electors don't know what is happening (thanks the MSM and the public schools) and don't understand the long terms effects on them of the policies the politicians support. The main problem is that the people is become, in the last decades, too much interested in the short term gains and uninterested in the long term consequences. As Keynes said, "In the long term we are all dead". We live in the long term of Keynes and many others. They did a mess and we are paying their debts and their actions. Mirco From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 19:24:11 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:24:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BBEAD0.7010808@libero.it> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <49BBEAD0.7010808@libero.it> Message-ID: On 3/14/09, painlord2k wrote: > The two bigger structural defecs of the economy in the modern developed > world are: > 1) Fiat money > 2) Fractional reserve banking. > > Fiat money let governments (via central banks) to inflate the credit and > lower the interest rates of loans, fueling an economic expansion in the > short time and an economic recession in the long time. > > The main problem is that the people is become, in the last decades, too > much interested in the short term gains and uninterested in the long term > consequences. As Keynes said, "In the long term we are all dead". We live in > the long term of Keynes and many others. They did a mess and we are paying > their debts and their actions. > Substitute 'markets' for 'people'. Try: *markets* have become too much interested in short term gains. The Chief Executive of the FSA (in the UK) has recently made a speech admitting that they previously failed to regulate the financial markets adequately. Significant quotes are: Furthermore, the limitations of a pure principles-based regime have to be recognised. I continue to believe the majority of market participants are decent people; however, a principles-based approach does not work with individuals who have no principles. Markets have shown not to be rational; excesses have not been corrected by market discipline. This is a central point for us all and management, in particular, to recognise. The managers of the future must acknowledge and fight against the ?herd mentality?; ?the collective wisdom?. The recognition that financial markets are not rational but rather they are a behavioural system built around personal aspirations is critical to us effectively changing this time round. ------------------ In future, markets throughout the world will be regulated with a much heavier hand. In particular, directors of financial organisations will no longer have the freedom to make calamitously stupid decisions. BillK From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 20:41:50 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:41:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 6:23 PM, spike wrote: >... if you think those were hard, wait till you see the next eight. ?The > 00s in retrospect will look like a Sunday picnic once several of the middle > eastern hardliners get nukes. Pakistan's got 'em, and that situation is sumpin else! But I think that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about Iran. Which gives me an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. The Piro 60 minutes interview: a big pile of nothin'. Piro spent a whole bunch of time with Saddam, who was (I'm guessin' here) largely isolated from other human contact, certainly "friendly" arabic-speaking contact. Piro built up a rapport, (as is to be expected and is the basis for lawful and effective -- re getting reliable info -- interrogation) and Saddam opened up to him. (Thoroughly discrediting the Bush/Cheney "darkside" approach. Though, to be "fair", if you're under a time constraint for actionable intelligence. a blowtorch to the genitals might speed things up a bit, though frankly, I find it difficult to think or speak clearly when my balls are on fire. YMMV.) So far so good. Which, after setting aside Pelley's tone and MSM presumptions, and Piro's self-congratulatory glow, leaves us with what breathtaking accomplishment? Saddam revealed at long last -- praise Hallellulah! to the FBI and the US of A -- that the UN inspection team had destroyed the preponderance of his WMDs and that he, Saddam, had destroyed the rest. (Gasps of astonishment!) The iraq war was unnecessary!!!! (The scales fall from my eyes, and tears of despair course down my cheeks!) How shocking! How awful! Then Scott Pelley asks Piro breathlessly and in disbelief -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ua8udRUOt4 -- why Saddam kept their destruction a secret. At which point we begin to here the echo chamber calling. Pelley's question suggests that Saddam kept the WMD destruction a secret, but is that anything like true. Saddam said before the war and after, that the WMDs were gone, and the UN weapon's inspectors confirmed, so how exactly can it be claimed that he kept it a secret? Oh, now I remember. The we-must-have-a-war-with-Iraq crowd claimed that Saddam was lying, and still had a secret stash of WMDs. And of course that meant it was true. Until finally, after the glorious and heroic efforts of Piro and the FBI to sweet-talk the truth out of Saddam, we find out that he was telling the truth all along, and that the secret Iraqi nukes existed only in the minds of the neo-con intelligence fabricators and their careerist victims in the Western Intelligence Community echo-chamber. Finally the "I was afraid of Iran" gambit, or its retread "The Iranians are gonna get a nuke, and then "We're doomed!, We're all doomed!". Puleeeese! The neo-cons want us to go to war with Iran. Yet another war paid for by Americans to keep the mideast safe for Israel. We just had one of those in Iraq, and as Dr. Phil likes to say, "How's that workin' out for you?" Sure Saddam was afraid of the Iranians. He was a ruthless paranoid megalomaniac who attacked everyone within reach. What's he gonna think, that the Iranians want to invite him over for kababs and hummus? But does his paranoia make the "Iranian threat" real, or just a projection of his own savage impulsiveness? Your call, but here's a hint about how to approach this. For some idea how Iranians may act in the future, maybe, just maybe, start by looking at how they have acted up to now, and what would be in their interest. Who have they attacked/invaded and when? (Answer: no one, for the last two hundred years.) Who has attacked and brutalized them? (Answer: The Brits. The US. Saddam, backed by the US.) In this little club of horrors, who recently and currently has been threating to attack whom? (Answer: Israel and the US have been unrelenting in their threats, even threatening to use nukes.) So, summary re the Piro 60 Minutes piece: The FBI, desperate for some good PR, puts up "the Saddam interrogation" as some kind of masterful accomplishment (in contrast to all those ridiculous terror plot arrests; shhhhh!), when in fact it's just old news which NEVER had any "actionable" value at all. And the Iran bit?, a gratuitous crumb, a bit of Saddam paranoia turned into a limp Iran smear. To be frank, Spike, I hadn't seen the Piro piece before popping off at you earlier, and I was prepared for something substantial that would inflict severe embarrassment on me and force an elaborate apology and a supersized feast on McCrow burgers. Not! ****************************************************** Nevertheless, we do live in interesting times, and the next few years look to be quite exciting politically, economically, and (my favorite) scientifically. Best, Jeff Davis "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world!" Louie Armstrong From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 20:59:04 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:59:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BBD348.2060703@libero.it> References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903091331o6cd1e89t4a41a9b0c107a596@mail.gmail.com> <49BBD348.2060703@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903141359t7dfb385vf2b2f13b3d431a7@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 4:54 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > I would say that, whatever be our judgement, the real difference is that the > US do and other talk. > > If we don't like what they do or how they do it, we could do it ourselves or > shut up. Yes, I think that we are in full agreement upon that. No point in complaining about the US threatening you with nukes if you do not do anything in order to get your own... :-) >> How should one who is bombed, vanquished and invaded ?should rejoice >> and welcome the army of occupation as some sort of eschatological >> messiahs? > > I remember that italians were bombed, invaded and vanquished by the Allies > but they were happy. Yes, especially those who lost estranged spouses in the bombing... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 21:11:46 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:11:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 11:25 PM, spike wrote: > Iran has population growth under control and is Persian. ?These are good and > promising factors in their favor, yet they are ruled by an apparent madman, > which is bad. You are speaking of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. The demonization and distortion in the US msm -- courtesy of the media domination by the Israeli lobby -- of all things Iranian, has lead to this misconception. He's not a madman, just a politician who speaks in accord with his cultural idiom. In any event he does not rule Iran, and in fact, has little real power. So for any kind of informed view you should read up on the real Iran, the real government structure and the real centers of power. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 22:10:12 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:10:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: On 3/14/09, Jeff Davis wrote: > So, summary re the Piro 60 Minutes piece: The FBI, desperate for some > good PR, puts up "the Saddam interrogation" as some kind of masterful > accomplishment (in contrast to all those ridiculous terror plot > arrests; shhhhh!), when in fact it's just old news which NEVER had any > "actionable" value at all. And the Iran bit?, a gratuitous crumb, a > bit of Saddam paranoia turned into a limp Iran smear. > > To be frank, Spike, I hadn't seen the Piro piece before popping off at > you earlier, and I was prepared for something substantial that would > inflict severe embarrassment on me and force an elaborate apology and > a supersized feast on McCrow burgers. Not! > I agree with Jeff's review of the CBS / Bush rewrite of history. But it seems to me that they are trying to apply Western standards and modes of thinking to Saddam and it doesn't work. Saddam knew very little about the US, except for Hollywood films. This writer gets more to the point Quote: There is a third possibility, however: Arab pride and shame. That is, after all, why Saddam's old Sunni supporters have kept fighting and dying for the last four years. There was a kind of suicidal willingness in Saddam to risk everything for his Arab warrior's honor. Maybe he really believed all those chintzy wall posters of Saddam as Saladin on his white horse. Whatever it was, in his own mind he needed to be a big hero. After the 1992 war, he required revenge, and in the Arab mindset, it was a family vendetta against the Bush dynasty. Being a dead hero rather than a living sultan may not be rational by Western standards, but it fits the "heroic" narrative of Saddam's imagination. Remember that when thousands of Baath honchos fled the country in 2003, Saddam stayed behind, hiding in holes to evade American troops. He didn't have to do that: It was just asking for suicide by cop. That's how an honor-and-shame culture acts. It might be admirable if it were not in the cause of a bloody-minded bully. Saddam's honor code was like the Sicilian code of the Mafia -- they think omerta is honorable, but it's only done in the cause of extortion, prostitution, beatings, murders, drug running and bullying the weak. It's an honor code on behalf of small-time tyranny. All this is relevant today, because the mullahs next door have an even more medieval ideology than Saddam did. We may not understand why they believe it, but that doesn't change their bizarre beliefs. There are lessons to learn from Saddam Hussein. ---------------- Arabs think differently. The West has to understand this difference. BillK From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 02:46:15 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:46:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Given a gravitational constant > G = 6.67428 by 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 > and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil of unit biblical height, > how far does the apple fall from the tree? > For extra credit, provide the answer in qubits. > Damien Broderick, pH > Professor, Newtonian Genetics, University of Ard-Knox, Geneva > [this test item is for Spike Jones] Slightly less than half a qubit.* The hard part was converting cubits to qubits, but thanks be to Google and the "i" triple "e": http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F7032%2F18939%2F00875960.pdf%3Farnumber%3D875960&authDecision=-203 *How I arrived at my answer: Unit biblical height = 1 cubit; Ergo height of apple above ground = less than one cubit. [Note: In Western Christian art, the fruit is commonly depicted as an apple, (they originated in central Asia). The source of this apparently lay in a Latin pun: by eating the malus (apple), Eve contracted malum (evil). Adams, Cecil (2006-11-24). "The Straight Dope: Was the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden an apple?". The Straight Dope. Creative Loafing Media, Inc.. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2682/was-the-forbidden-fruit-in-the-garden-of-eden-an-apple.] The furthest from the tree the "apple" can fall then is the midpoint between the lowest branches and the ground, which, from the above, is clearly less than half a cubit. >From that point onward in its fall the "apple" will once again be getting closer to the tree, in the form of the root system radiating outward along the ground. Of course, all bets are off if the ground is steeply sloping and the "apple" can roll after falling. Strictly speaking however, rolling is not falling. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything you see I owe to spaghetti." Sophia Loren From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Mar 15 03:17:08 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:17:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090314221154.0267a5f8@satx.rr.com> At 08:46 PM 3/14/2009 -0600, Jeff Davis wrote: >The furthest from the tree the "apple" can fall then is the midpoint >between the lowest branches and the ground, which, from the above, is >clearly less than half a cubit. > > From that point onward in its fall the "apple" will once again be >getting closer to the tree, in the form of the root system radiating >outward along the ground. Of course, all bets are off if the ground >is steeply sloping and the "apple" can roll after falling. Strictly >speaking however, rolling is not falling. This is, of course, a completely accurate answer in Newtonian Theophysics, but I'm afraid it fails the Newtonian Genetics aspect of the problem. C-, because at least the working was shown and accurate. Dr. Herr Brodstich, Dip. Theoillogy From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 06:23:33 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:23:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike><1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek><9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike><6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis > ... > Though, to be "fair", if you're under a time constraint for > actionable intelligence. a blowtorch to the genitals might > speed things up a bit, though frankly, I find it difficult to > think or speak clearly when my balls are on fire. YMMV.) Under those conditions I would answer any question they ask, so long as they ask questions to which the answer is YEEEEEOOWWWWWWW! > ... > > Then Scott Pelley asks Piro breathlessly and in disbelief -- > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ua8udRUOt4 -- why Saddam kept their > destruction a secret. At which point we begin to here the echo > chamber calling... It wasn't that he kept their destruction secret, rather he gave indications to the contrary. He interfered with the UN inspectors. Why? We were getting mixed signals on whether Saddam was interfering. Scott Ritter said he wasn't, or not substantially. Hans Blix said he was. My recollection of the treaty signed in 1991 had no authority in there for Saddam to eject UN weapons inspectors. As I recall this UN resolution 1441 was the last chance for peace: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_1441 Saddam didn't comply with UN 1441. He didn't want to look weak in a dangerous neighborhood. In retrospect, we now understand that sentiment a lot better than we did then. My recollection of the events just before the invasion was that there was plenty of uncertainty on Saddam. Even former ambassador Joe Wilson, who claimed to have gone to Niger and supposedly talked to some people, wasn't sure enough of anything to actually write a report. Why? He claims he told this and that to such and such a person, but we can find no one who can back up anything he was supposed to have uttered, and of course he never actually wrote a report. Why didn't he write a report? After the fact and no weapons were found, THEN everyone everywhere came out claiming they felt all along the invasion should never have happened. After they went in and found nothing, THEN everyone was quite certain. But not before. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 10:20:06 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:20:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] A basic test question in Newtonian Genetics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090309204513.025f7e80@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 3/10/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > Given a gravitational constant > G = 6.67428 by 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2 > and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil of unit biblical height, > how far does the apple fall from the tree? > For extra credit, provide the answer in qubits. > Damien Broderick, pH > Professor, Newtonian Genetics, University of Ard-Knox, Geneva > [this test item is for Spike Jones] > This question is based on a misapprehension. See: Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory KANSAS CITY, KS?As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling. "Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University. etc....... BillK From benboc at lineone.net Sun Mar 15 11:12:51 2009 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:12:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> Damien Broderick wrote: >I haven't read a psychiatric evaluation of Supreme Leader Ayatollah >Ali Khamenei, but his fatwa against nuclear weapons states, as you >know, that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons is >forbidden under Islam. This might be wicked deception, but then I >haven't heard of many apparent non-madmen supreme leaders in the West >who've published declarations that the production, stockpiling and >use of nuclear weapons is forbidden under Christianity, capitalism or >democracy. No need for 'wicked deception' (which is fully justified, anyway, in the eyes of the believer, if it's done in the name of allah): "Iranian fatwa approves use of nuclear weapons Iran's hardline spiritual leaders have issued an unprecedented new fatwa, or holy order, sanctioning the use of atomic weapons against its enemies. In yet another sign of Teheran's stiffening resolve on the nuclear issue, influential Muslim clerics have for the first time questioned the theocracy's traditional stance that Sharia law forbade the use of nuclear weapons." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1510900/Iranian-fatwa-approves-use-of-nuclear-weapons.html Ben Zaiboc From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 15 11:25:09 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:25:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> Message-ID: <49BCE595.5060300@libero.it> Il 10/03/2009 13.51, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > 2009/3/10 spike: >> Under the proposed UN rule, it would be illegal to even report stuff like >> this: >> http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html > Why would it be illegal to report it? It seems the Saudis are proud of > it and would like to run the whole world this way if they could. It's > only reports they believe to be untrue or, if true, that they are > ashamed of that they want banned. Near miss. It is all about the Islamic Law and their concept of "honour", "shame" and "defamation". Remember that Islam condone and approve when muslim lie to other muslims or kafir for many matters (husband to wife, to reconcile people, when one feel threatened). Then there is the rule about killing "who that cause tumult / sedition". Truth can be a cause of tumult and sedition. It would be illegal to report it if they feel displeased someone else know about it, albeith they feel doing the right thing; it would be illegal if it cause criticism about them or Islam. In short, it would be illegal to write and say anything that displease them, whatever it is. And you would it after. Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 11:47:58 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:47:58 +1100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <49BCE595.5060300@libero.it> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> <49BCE595.5060300@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/15 painlord2k at libero.it : > Il 10/03/2009 13.51, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> >> 2009/3/10 spike: > >>> Under the proposed UN rule, it would be illegal to even report stuff like >>> this: > >>> http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html > >> Why would it be illegal to report it? It seems the Saudis are proud of >> it and would like to run the whole world this way if they could. It's >> only reports they believe to be untrue or, if true, that they are >> ashamed of that they want banned. > > Near miss. > It is all about the Islamic Law and their concept of "honour", "shame" and > "defamation". > Remember that Islam condone and approve when muslim lie to other muslims or > kafir for many matters (husband to wife, to reconcile people, when one feel > threatened). Then there is the rule about killing "who that cause tumult / > sedition". Truth can be a cause of tumult and sedition. > > It would be illegal to report it if they feel displeased someone else know > about it, albeith they feel doing the right thing; it would be illegal if it > cause criticism about them or Islam. > In short, it would be illegal to write and say anything that displease them, > whatever it is. And you would it after. But it's not something they see as shameful at all; on the contrary, they see it as a good idea which should be widely promoted. It would be like the US lying about the fact that they imprison those who sell recreational drugs because some people see the drug laws as unjust. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 12:41:03 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:41:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903150541g3c553574ndd552462227deb30@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 7:23 AM, spike wrote: > Saddam didn't comply with UN 1441. ?He didn't want to look weak in a > dangerous neighborhood. ?In retrospect, we now understand that sentiment a > lot better than we did then. It is my impression that basically Saddam has always been manipulated. - To invade Iran, with little or no advantage for Iraq and on behalf of the powers-that-be. - To invade Kuwait in the attempt to pay back the debt foolishly underwritted in order to invade Iran ("go ahead, we shall look in the other direction"). - To take foreign citizens hostages, thus alienating 100% of the international community and making for the first non-vetoed, unanimous significant UN decisions ever, and to... release them after (!), in exchange for nothing, when the damage was done and the need to do so, if it ever existed, had if anything increased. - To resist any reasonable international settlement ("they will never attack") and to evacuate Kuwait - "if you do so, I promise the Americans will not actually attack", signed Gorbaciov -, surrendering a strategic position and allowing the Desert Storm forces an almost ideal flank attack to an army in disordered retreat, which had to be disposed of having been inflated by the US to the fourth terrestrial army in the world; - To accept whatever conditions the western forces imposed on him that could weaken his actual ability to resist an attack, only always a hair too late, and a hair too imprecisely, thus allowing them to raise constantly their demands; etc., etc. It is difficult to believe that Saddam Hussein could have done better if he had been the CIA chief operative officer in Bagdad... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 14:22:06 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:22:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> Message-ID: <580930c20903150722q53c6ea0bv3e7193a152aeecd4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:12 PM, ben wrote: > No need for 'wicked deception' (which is fully justified, anyway, in the > eyes of the believer, if it's done in the name of allah): > > "Iranian fatwa approves use of nuclear weapons Oh well, ayatollahs have their own neocons, apparently... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Mar 15 14:29:52 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:29:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> At 11:12 AM 3/15/2009 +0000, Ben Zaiboc quoted in reply to my comment: > >I haven't read a psychiatric evaluation of Supreme Leader Ayatollah > >Ali Khamenei, but his fatwa against nuclear weapons states, as you > >know, that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons is > >forbidden under Islam. > >"Iranian fatwa approves use of nuclear weapons > >Iran's hardline spiritual leaders have issued an unprecedented new >fatwa, or holy order, sanctioning the use of atomic weapons against >its enemies. > >In yet another sign of Teheran's stiffening resolve on the nuclear >issue, influential Muslim clerics have for the first time questioned >the theocracy's traditional stance that Sharia law forbade the use >of nuclear weapons." And? This is interesting, but seems rather beside the point of what was being asserted and answered. Let's go back... Spike said: > Iran [is] ruled by an apparent madman I pointed out that Iran is ruled by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, a comparative moderate. Jeff made the distinction even clearer, in case anyone had missed it, replying to Spike that: "You are speaking of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad....not a madman, just a politician who speaks in accord with his cultural idiom. In any event he does not rule Iran, and in fact, has little real power." Ben now cites another fatwa from a newspaper article that seems to confuse the relative power and station of these two men, which is bad enough--but also (it seems to me, no scholar of Islam) to misunderstand the nature of fatwas. These are *opinions*, not ex cathedra pronouncements from some seat of absolute authority. Moreover, the source of this particular fatwa was, according to the paper: "Mohsen Gharavian, a disciple of the ultra-conservative Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah-Yazdi, who is widely regarded as the cleric closest to Iran's new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad." This opinions "appeared on Rooz, an internet newspaper run by members of Iran's fractured reformist movement, which picked them up from remarks by Mohsen Gharavian reported on the media agency IraNews.... Rooz reported that Mohsen Gharavian, a lecturer based in a religious school in the holy city of Qom, had declared "for the first time that the use of nuclear weapons may not constitute a problem, according to Sharia." How relevant is this to the views of the man who actually rules Iran (which is where we came in)? I suspect that to equate all these opinions is about as sensible as saying that a call for the death of all white oppressors made in a blog entry by the Rev. Rabid Q. Snake, a lecturer and disciple of Loony T. Catkiller, proves that President Obama is an apparent madman bent on race war. Damien Broderick From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:11:38 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:11:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903150811m4d9707cfmd6979aa5a7516b98@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Ben now cites another fatwa from a newspaper article that seems to confuse > the relative power and station of these two men, which is bad enough--but > also (it seems to me, no scholar of Islam) to misunderstand the nature of > fatwas. These are *opinions*, not ex cathedra pronouncements from some seat > of absolute authority. In fact, they are "legal opinions", deriving - exactly as it used to happen the common law tradition - *some* normative power only from the cogency of their arguments and the relative authority of their origin. So, one may consider them as the political-theological equivalent of the comfort letter one obtains from a prestigious law firm before embarking in the infringement of somebody's patent. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:38:49 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:38:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 3/15/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > "Mohsen Gharavian, a disciple of the ultra-conservative Ayatollah Mohammad > Taghi Mesbah-Yazdi, who is widely regarded as the cleric closest to Iran's > new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad." > > This opinions "appeared on Rooz, an internet newspaper run by members of > Iran's fractured reformist movement, which picked them up from remarks by > Mohsen Gharavian reported on the media agency IraNews.... Rooz reported that > Mohsen Gharavian, a lecturer based in a religious school in the holy city of > Qom, had declared "for the first time that the use of nuclear weapons may > not constitute a problem, according to Sharia." > The 'opinion' appeared on an Iranian exiles website. i.e. not an official Iran website. Gharavian has since denied issuing the fatwa. Looks like an anti-Iran smear to me. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:44:22 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:44:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903150844i7bbad931q19a543f9e206cbb2@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 4:38 PM, BillK wrote: > The 'opinion' appeared on an Iranian exiles website. i.e. not an > official Iran website. > > Gharavian has since denied issuing the fatwa. > > > > Looks like an anti-Iran smear to me. OTOH, it sounds a little extreme to condemn the use of nuclear weapons in any conceivable scenario, and Iran could profit from taking a more Christian or secular attitude on the subject... ;-D -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 16:58:42 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:58:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of BillK ... > > The 'opinion' appeared on an Iranian exiles website. i.e. not > an official Iran website. > > Gharavian has since denied issuing the fatwa. > > > > Looks like an anti-Iran smear to me. > > BillK Ja I wondered about this. As far as I can tell, there is no central control mechanism for fatwas, with no offical fatwa website*, no church bishop, cardinal or other biggie required to sign off on them. Anyone can issue one at any time. You and I can issue fatwas. (Heyyy, cool.) The problem is that anyone can act on it as well. If I utter a fatwa against [fill in your favorite bad guy], I have no way of knowing some radical Presbyterian might not carry it out fatally (perhaps while shouting jesus akbar) as she slew some hapless prole. spike *Hey, that's an idea: set up a central website for fatwas, perhaps in a spreadsheet format, with a column for who issued it, their standing in the Presbyterian movement, the person or persons they want slain, the number and quality of virgins to be rewarded, etc. From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 18:22:23 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:22:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903151122y11d0ef97y26a207274b99fe0a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, spike wrote: >As far as I can tell, there is no central control > mechanism for fatwas, with no offical fatwa website*, no church bishop, > cardinal or other biggie required to sign off on them. ?Anyone can issue one > at any time. ?You and I can issue fatwas. ?(Heyyy, cool.) In fact, I am under the impression that a few WTA figures just do it for the international transhumanist community, from time to time... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 18:42:15 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:42:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: ....On Behalf Of spike > ... > You > and I can issue fatwas. (Heyyy, cool.) The problem is that > anyone can act on it as well... > > spike ....Such as these three asian men. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Mus lims-TV-show.html This comment slew me (fortunately not literally.): "...The Metropolitan Police are treating it as a 'faith hate' assault and are hunting three Asian men..." Asian men. Must be three Japanese guys that did this. Those Buddhists are real bad asses, with their ninja turtles, their violent and puzzling but oddly profound zen koans, such as: "If you meet the infidel on the road, kill him." and "Who should be slain more, an unbeliever?" We must always be wary of these Asians, these radical Buddhists, with their zen masters issuing random fatwas. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 19:18:31 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:18:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 3/15/09, spike wrote: > Ja I wondered about this. As far as I can tell, there is no central control > mechanism for fatwas, with no offical fatwa website*, no church bishop, > cardinal or other biggie required to sign off on them. Anyone can issue one > at any time. You and I can issue fatwas. (Heyyy, cool.) The problem is > that anyone can act on it as well. If I utter a fatwa against [fill in your > favorite bad guy], I have no way of knowing some radical Presbyterian might > not carry it out fatally (perhaps while shouting jesus akbar) as she slew > some hapless prole. > I fear that it might be a slight exaggeration to say that you or I can issue fatwas. ;) You have to get a four-year degree qualification at a madrassah, followed by a ten+ year post-graduate course. The situation is certainly very confusing as there are different branches of Islam, and fatwa only apply within their own group. Then there are Muslim state fatwa which become law and 'private' fatwa which are optional. Some scholars say all fatwa are optional, others disagree. There can indeed be contradictory fatwa, though scholars do try to resolve such cases. All in all, it just sounds too complicated for mere mortals like us. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 20:05:12 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:05:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6857261E4EC942529C58DD402571A624@spike> ....On Behalf Of BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] whose fatwa? what ruler? > > On 3/15/09, spike wrote: > > Ja...there is no central > > control mechanism for fatwas, with no offical fatwa website* >...I have no > > way of knowing some radical Presbyterian might not carry it out > > fatally... > > I fear that it might be a slight exaggeration to say that you > or I can issue fatwas. ;) > > > > You have to get a four-year degree qualification at a > madrassah, followed by a ten+ year post-graduate course. > > The situation is certainly very confusing as there are > different branches of Islam... BillK Thanks BillK, but surely you misunderstood, for I specified a Presbyterian fatwa [jesus akbar, y'all], this having nothing whatsoever to do with this other religion you mentioned. We must be careful with The Religion you mentioned, for it may soon be protected from any negative comment or blasphemy by international law. The internet never forgets. On the other hand, I confidently predict the Presbyterians and Buddhists will never enjoy such protections, consequently ridicule and blasphemy against them will be forever fair game. Apparently we infidels have no rights to free speech unless we threaten to actually kill people. OSHA gives us safe working conditions, condoms give us safe sex. Do let us practice safe internet postings. Along those lines, here is today's shocking headline: http://www.nisnews.nl/public/110309_1.htm Outrage and righteous indignation shall surely follow. spike From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 15 20:36:59 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:36:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> <08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> Gordon wrote >>> I think we incarcerate or execute criminals for one or more of the >>> following reasons: >>> >>> 1) retribution (we should make them suffer for what they did) >>> 2) rehabilitation (we should heal them and make them productive >>> citizens) >>> 3) deterrence (we should prevent them from re-offending, and make >>> them an example to others) Actually there are *four* classic reasons (three begin with the letter "R", which does help to remember them). As Stefano pointed out, the fourth is 4) removal >> At least in western societies, criminal sentences serve somewhat >> unofficially an additional purpose, namely the more or less temporary >> elimination of people who are perceived as dangerous or asocial from >> society. >> >> This is of course hypocritical... Not really any worse than sending children to their rooms as punishment---unless you were referring to: I do completely agree with Damien, who wrote > And as Dagon stressed in his excellent post, the > current system actually *increases* potential future > damages, through brutalization and creating an > environment that (very expensively) *teaches* > humans how best to be criminals. Yes. Yet the best solution simply CANNOT be what Jeff suggests: > No need to kill anyone. Send 'em all to some island somewhere. Men > and women both [!]. No radio, no internet, no boats, no planes. > Let them disappear from our lawful (such as it is) society, never > to be heard from again. Good-bye and good luck. No hard feelings. This is unacceptable on several counts. The first, obviously, is that *perpetual* exile is clearly too harsh in many cases. Nothing further needs be said about that. But far more importantly---a point steadfastly and absurdly ignored by our present system---is the hideous relative injustice inflicted on the weaker of the prisoners by the stronger. The very most violent, domineering, and brutal of the prisoners surely cannot find this sort of incarceration too unpleasant, because they're right back in their element, doing that which they so enjoy, lording it over others who are weak or who are in any way refined or inhibited. Is it right or just in any manner whatsoever that a mild-mannered bookkeeper guilty of embezzlement is to be sodomized and regularly beaten by humans barely above the animal level? Or, how could it be just to place small, and really quite harmless young women in such an environment? Why is it that practically no one but me ever cries out against the massive injustice that prisoners so routinely unleash on each other? If our concern is justice, why does it stop---of all places---at the prison wall? Often I think that the best solution is solitary confinement. It seemed to work out okay for Edmund Dantes, so far as I could tell when I read the Dumas book. Severe, yes, but not inhuman. But alas, even my suggestion fails because some people (unlike me) would completely fall apart, go quite mad, and find it absolutely agonizing. Probably we should simply revert to Marshall Dillon's jail: the prisoners can talk to each other, but are physically quite separate each in his or her own cell, never *ever* leaving those cells until the day of release. Lee P.S. Hi to Gordon and everyone---it's been a while. From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 21:01:05 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:01:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> It is so puzzling. What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? See black line on Roy Spencer's curve: http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ Would we then theorize that global cooling will kill us a lot faster than will warming (we are Africans after all), and that humans are causing it, and if so what would we do? 1) Would we stick with the notion that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide warms the earth, and so we reverse all the Kyoto accords to mandate emitting more of the stuff to offset the cooling? Or 2) would we theorize that somehow there is an unknown mechanism that carbon dioxide emissions somehow increase cloud cover and scatter more solar energy, and so we need to restrict CO2 emissions anyway? Or 3) ignore the data as faulty, misleading or politically motivated, and keep insisting that the globe will eventually warm due to scientific theory? For how long? I am not being my usual snarky self here, I am asking what do we do if we keep having fewer hurricanes instead of more, and the measured global average temperature appears to be dropping? spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 21:59:40 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:59:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: It doesn't matter. Running out of cheap energy will kill billions long before either an ice age set in or the ice caps melt. One interesting point, the proposed carbon taxes in the US are more than enough to pay for space based solar power. Personally, I am agnostic about the effect of carbon on climate. One thing is sure though, the oceans will become much more acid. 100 ppm of CO2 is about 1000 billion tons or close to 1000 cubic km. We need to put in at least 30 TW to replace fossil fuels. If we put in another 50 TW, that's enough that in 12 years we could convert 1000 billion tons of CO2 back into synthetic oil and put it in old oil fields. Keith On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 2:01 PM, spike wrote: > > It is so puzzling. ?What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that > the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? ?See black > line on Roy Spencer's curve: > > http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ > > Would we then theorize that global cooling will kill us a lot faster than > will warming (we are Africans after all), and that humans are causing it, > and if so what would we do? > > 1) Would we stick with the notion that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide > warms the earth, and so we reverse all the Kyoto accords to mandate emitting > more of the stuff to offset the cooling? ?Or > > 2) would we theorize that somehow there is an unknown mechanism that carbon > dioxide emissions somehow increase cloud cover and scatter more solar > energy, and so we need to restrict CO2 emissions anyway? Or > > 3) ignore the data as faulty, misleading or politically motivated, and keep > insisting that the globe will eventually warm due to scientific theory? ?For > how long? > > I am not being my usual snarky self here, I am asking what do we do if we > keep having fewer hurricanes instead of more, and the measured global > average temperature appears to be dropping? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 21:37:44 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:37:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com><08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <8BF66F94B8D84E59953B36F6333C4727@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin Hi Lee, welcome back! ... > > But far more importantly---a point steadfastly and absurdly > ignored by our present system---is the hideous relative > injustice inflicted on the weaker of the prisoners by the > stronger... Ja, perhaps they need to match cellmates by weight, as we do in boxing and rassling, with corrections made for age. ... > > Often I think that the best solution is solitary confinement...Severe, yes, but not inhuman. But alas, > even my suggestion fails because some people (unlike me) would > completely fall apart, go quite mad, and find it absolutely > agonizing... Lee I am eager to hear Keith's commentary on this notion. It seems if one is given 24/7 access to the internet, then solitary might be highly preferred over any other arrangement. It wouldn't be nearly as lonely, boring and dangerous as it is now, ja? The domain name could be @slammer.com or something, so the real bad guys couldn't do crimes as easily from inside. They could learn new skills for when they get out, give the illiterate prisoners motivation to learn language skills, make legitimate business contacts, etc. Hell I use much of my free time trolling around on the internet anyways. It has become the modern university. Actually the internet is superior to traditional universities in some important ways. Seems that supplying internet connections to every cell would be cheaper than all that exercise equipment I hear so much about, which just results in prisoners being released into society as bitter musclebound predators. Jedi master Keith, teach us please. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Mar 15 22:25:09 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:25:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] random stuff combined to prevent overposting Message-ID: <251F2295032C4AB1BAD4C048D2618922@spike> I forgot to wish everyone happy pi day yesterday. ScienceDaily (Mar. 13, 2009) - Are Americans flunking science? A new national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sciences and conducted by Harris InteractiveR reveals that the U.S. public is unable to pass even a basic scientific literacy test. ... According to the national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sciences: * Only 53% of adults know how long it takes for the Earth to revolve around the Sun. * Only 59% of adults know that the earliest humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time. * Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water. * Only 21% of adults answered all three questions correctly. We have designed our civilization based on science and technology and at the same time arranged things so that almost no one understands anything at all about science and technology. This is a clear prescription for disaster. Carl Sagan, 1995 Not only do we not understand the universe, if someone explained it to us, we wouldn't know what he was talking about. - Isaac Asimov Grey goo humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dYPnui3rM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 23:13:01 2009 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:13:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] random stuff combined to prevent overposting In-Reply-To: <251F2295032C4AB1BAD4C048D2618922@spike> References: <251F2295032C4AB1BAD4C048D2618922@spike> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:25 PM, spike wrote: > > * Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth?s > surface that is covered with water. > Odd use of the word "approximate". Seems to imply: "Yo mama so fat, she approximates the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water!" At least only 47% of Americans are that big. Wonder why the article is complaining about it? >:)) Darin Sunley dsunley at shaw.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 23:13:21 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:13:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] random stuff combined to prevent overposting In-Reply-To: <251F2295032C4AB1BAD4C048D2618922@spike> References: <251F2295032C4AB1BAD4C048D2618922@spike> Message-ID: On 3/15/09, spike wrote: > ScienceDaily (Mar. 13, 2009) ? Are Americans flunking science? A new > national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sciences and > conducted by Harris Interactive? reveals that the U.S. public is unable to > pass even a basic scientific literacy test. ... > On the other hand, religiosity seems to be gradually dying out in the US. Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey. So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. Full survey details here: BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 23:41:49 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:41:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Space Shuttle about to go! Message-ID: The NASA channel is showing it real-time. Launch in one minute. From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 00:28:32 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 00:28:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Space Shuttle about to go! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/15/09, BillK wrote: > The NASA channel is showing it real-time. > > Launch in one minute. > If you missed the launch, you can watch the video here: The link is on the right of the page. BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 01:37:17 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] random stuff combined to prevent overposting Message-ID: <297F5D5286354BAB85DF91F4B375A254@spike> Apologies for overposting today. I will not make a habit of it. This link is a twelve minute video by the son of a colleague. Comments welcome. This young man is a monster talent emerging in the movie industry. This short story will make a lot more sense if you know a little of the background. Kurt Kuenne worked for several years in a Los Angeles Spaghetti Factory, while he wrote short films like this one. I saw some of his work when he was in high school and recognized that he has amazing young talent. He also wrote all the music as well. The main character is the brother of Angelina Jolie. I thought Rent-a-Person was a great rookie card. If you want to post comments here, I will pass them along to the author: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w9cKFiCrSU &feature=related This is another one by the same writer/director. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao Wouldn't it be nice if Hollyweird produced stuff like this instead of what is coming out of there now? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 05:10:04 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:10:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] mosquitos again Message-ID: Cool! About ten years ago in this forum I posted about using SDI-derived raster laser technology to detect and slay mosquitos. Looks like a group of Royal Smart Persons figured out a way to do it: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123680870885500701.html I noticed Dr. Jordin Kare is on the team, one of Keith Henson's buddies. Keith do pass along to Dr. Kare our congratulations. This is way cool. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:18:02 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:18:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903160418k2c0ab4b4ra4b24151ccd8526a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:01 PM, spike wrote: > It is so puzzling. ?What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that > the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? How would anybody believe that? I read the other day that GW threaten several species with extinction in a few years: the polar bears, the emperor penguins, and other, "amongst which the humankind" (!). The implication that even, say, an increase of even ten centigrades in average temperature would render the Earth radically inhabitable shows well the kind of paranoia exists on the subject. Those of us who sincerely believe that we have a problem should never rejoice from this kind of misinformation and delirious propaganda, as it taints any serious debate about climate, which could and should only be based on probability assessments and cost-damages comparisons. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 11:46:45 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:46:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> <08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903160446l417b9d87r3fbc685b5253e433@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > ? ?4) removal > >>> At least in western societies, criminal sentences serve somewhat >>> unofficially an additional purpose, namely the more or less temporary >>> elimination of people who are perceived as dangerous or asocial from >>> society. >>> >>> This is of course hypocritical... > > Not really any worse than sending children to their rooms > as punishment--- My point is that traditionally one thing was criminal punishment, another prevention of asocial behaviours, which used to lead to an altogether different set of remedies, called in civil "security measures". Think in modern times of the internment of dangerously deranged psychopaths, or of aliens in wartime, or the expulsion of unwanted immigrants, or the order to stay away from a given area or person, which does not require evidence of any actual "guilt" of anything, nor is aimed per se at any "punishment". Now, the entire notion has become distinctly unfashionable in western democracies, especially after the sixties, and this makes for a distorsive use of criminal remedies "to keep them out of the street", little else being legally available to concerned people. > But far more importantly---a point steadfastly and absurdly ignored > by our present system---is the hideous relative injustice inflicted > on the weaker of the prisoners by the stronger. This again is hypocritical. We refrain from inflicting any kind of punishment other than mere detention, so we delegate... other inmates to make prison life a hellish nightmare. Needless to say, "severe but just" are not the first words who come time as its description... > Often I think that the best solution is solitary confinement. It > seemed to work out okay for Edmund Dantes, so far as I could tell > when I read the Dumas book. Severe, yes, but not inhuman. I was just mentioning the same example! Great minds continue working alike... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 12:22:35 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 05:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <906798.46969.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Lee, --- On Sun, 3/15/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > Gordon wrote > >> I think we incarcerate or execute criminals for one or more of >> the following reasons: >> >> 1) retribution (we should make them suffer for what they did) >> 2) rehabilitation (we should heal them and make them productive >> citizens) >> 3) deterrence (we should prevent them from re-offending, and make >> them an example to others) > > Actually there are *four* classic reasons (three begin with > the letter "R", which does help to remember them). As > Stefano pointed out, the fourth is > > 4) removal I believe 'removal' falls under 'deterrence' as I defined it above. (I'd like to see a reference to support your claim that removal is a "classic reason" distinct from deterrence, but then you might consider this splitting hairs.) The real question on my mind (and yours, I think) concerns the role of retribution. Simple removal from mainstream society (by cryonic suspension or by any other means) with no promise of suffering will certainly deter the guilty from re-offending, but it may do little to deter the innocent from offending in the first place. I think it would reduce or eliminate the number of repeat offenders but at a cost of more first-time offenders. -gts From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 13:18:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:18:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <906798.46969.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> <906798.46969.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903160618u59f8db10mf1262801edb34868@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Gordon Swobe wrote: > I believe 'removal' falls under 'deterrence' as I defined it above. (I'd like to see a reference to support your claim that removal is a "classic reason" distinct from deterrence, but then you might consider this splitting hairs.) How would that be the case? "Removal" has to do with the dangers it may avoid, not the retribution of a possible, future guilt to be deterred. >Simple removal from mainstream society (by cryonic suspension or by any other means) with no promise of suffering will certainly deter the guilty from re-offending, Why should it? :-/ -- Stefano Vaj From max at maxmore.com Mon Mar 16 14:51:39 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:51:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again Message-ID: <200903161519.n2GFJrss021558@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Spike's hypothetical question about global cooling isn't so wild. In fact, it has been happening, depending on the time frame you look at. The globe actually did cool between 1940 and 1975, leading to widespread forecasts of problems from continued cooling. Warming then started again, but stopped around 1998. None of the models make sense of this. I think the 1970s warnings of global cooling were hardly less reliable than current faith-based estimates of global warming. I say "faith-based" because even the IPCC's estimates (considered the authority) are not based on sound forecasting methodology. I said something about this at TransVision '07. On this point, see "Global Warming: Forecasts by Scientists versus Scientific Forecasts: http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.aspx?coid=CO770716334614 Maybe we will experience significant warming, maybe not. We should not be making (very expensive and economically destructive) policies based on bad forecasting practices. That's not to say we can't be taking less-expensive to reduce carbon emissions and reduce dependence on carbon-intensive energy sources. Bjorn Lomborg points out some more sensible ways of ameliorating problems from global warming (though he, too, accepts IPCC forecasts too readily): Why Kyoto Won't Work McKinsey, 23 February 2009 http://whatmatters.mckinseydigital.com/climate_change/why-kyoto-won-t-work Max Stefano Vaj wrote: >On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:01 PM, spike wrote: > > It is so puzzling. What happens if we keep taking measuring and find > > that the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? > >How would anybody believe that? I read the other day that GW >threaten several species with extinction in a few years: the polar >bears, the emperor penguins, and other, "amongst which the humankind" (!). Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Mar 16 15:12:55 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:12:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] SXSW interactive - Event March 16, 2009 ! Message-ID: Greetings! The SXSW Film Festival is now taking place in Austin, TX. Tonight is the final event, known as the Plutopia Extravaganza! "Plutopia! - Best SXSW Interactive party to date" - Stephen Moser, Austin Chronicle Monday, March 16, 2009 6pm - midnight Palmer Events Center 900 Barton Springs Road, Austin, Texas 78704 | map An extravaganza of music, interactive art, & performance - The Biggest SXSWi Party FEATURING: Ian McLagan & The Bump Band The Heather Gold Show Bruce Sterling Adam Zaretsky Max More Stanza Natasha Vita-More The Black Pig Liberation Front Hipnautica If you are in Austin for the SXSW Film Festival and you know about the SXSW interactive event this evening, we hope to see you there. Jon Lebkowsky and Derek Woodgate have created an amazing extravaganza event featuring digital, interactive works of art, music, performances, and guest speakers featuring: Here is a link http://plutopia.org/schedule/ The countdown for today is featured on the website and I hope to see all you futurists there! FREE to all SXSW badge holders, $10 General Public. All welcome! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 17:33:52 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:33:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <200903161519.n2GFJrss021558@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <200903161519.n2GFJrss021558@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903161033v3227664fh46f9e15dec3dc393@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Max More wrote: > Spike's hypothetical question about global cooling isn't so wild. In fact, > it has been happening, depending on the time frame you look at. The globe > actually did cool between 1940 and 1975, leading to widespread forecasts of > problems from continued cooling. Warming then started again, but stopped > around 1998. None of the models make sense of this. The only thing that can be said regarding the current *cultural* climate is that it opens the debate about geo-engineering. Or rather, that it shows how far ideological biases go as far as such debate is not being opened at all... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From dagonweb at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 17:36:39 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:36:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: Spike, If you are right, I will at some time in the future be proven wrong, and I will shrug and spend time on other things. If you are wrong, you will be on the record as a climate change denier, for all the world, and as the millions die around you, some people may be inclined to look you up and (proverbially I hope) string you up to the nearest lamp post. The stakes are very high for deniers, and they might up the subject in mob violence. Someone out there is maintaining a list with quotes and dates, spike. Will you sleep soundly as continents shrivel, millions starve, sealevels rise and hurricanes thrash economies and countries? 2009/3/15 spike > > It is so puzzling. What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that > the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? See black > line on Roy Spencer's curve: > > http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ > > Would we then theorize that global cooling will kill us a lot faster than > will warming (we are Africans after all), and that humans are causing it, > and if so what would we do? > > 1) Would we stick with the notion that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide > warms the earth, and so we reverse all the Kyoto accords to mandate > emitting > more of the stuff to offset the cooling? Or > > 2) would we theorize that somehow there is an unknown mechanism that carbon > dioxide emissions somehow increase cloud cover and scatter more solar > energy, and so we need to restrict CO2 emissions anyway? Or > > 3) ignore the data as faulty, misleading or politically motivated, and keep > insisting that the globe will eventually warm due to scientific theory? > For > how long? > > I am not being my usual snarky self here, I am asking what do we do if we > keep having fewer hurricanes instead of more, and the measured global > average temperature appears to be dropping? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- I said NO SIGNATURE !!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 16 18:16:46 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:16:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> At 02:01 PM 3/15/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >It is so puzzling. What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that >the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? Or what if the earth is actually flat? Or rhomboid? Quote from below: "Eleven of the last 12 years (1995-2006) rank among the warmest years in global surface temperature since 1850." http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/a-predicted-glo.html World Population Devastated if a Predicted Global Warming Increase of 9 Degrees F Occurs By Casey Kazan Daily Galaxy Editorial Staff On the closing day of the Congress on Climate Change held last week in Copenhagen, one of the world's leading experts, Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany, said that if the buildup of greenhouse gases and its consequences pushed global temperatures 9 degrees Fahrenheit higher than today - well below the upper temperature range that scientists project could occur from global warming - Earth's population would be devastated. "In a very cynical way, it's a triumph for science because at last we have stabilized something -- namely the estimates for the carrying capacity of the planet, namely below 1 billion people." Schellnhuber's comments at the Copenhagen conference underscore that, given high rates of observed emissions, the worst-case IPCC scenario trajectories are unfoldinmg. For many key parameters, the climate system is already moving beyond the patterns of natural variability within which our society and economy have developed and thrived. These parameters include global mean surface temperature, sea-level rise, ocean and ice sheet dynamics, ocean acidification, and extreme climatic events. There is a significant risk that many of the trends will accelerate, leading to an increasing risk of abrupt or irreversible climatic shifts. Recent observations show that societies are highly vulnerable to even modest levels of climate change, with poor nations and communities particularly at risk. Temperature rises above 2?C will be very difficult for contemporary societies to cope with, and will increase the level of climate disruption through the rest of the century. It is important for people to understand that the warming the IPCC talks about is not hypothetical. Eleven of the last 12 years (1995-2006) rank among the warmest years in global surface temperature since 1850. Glaciers and snow cover have declined, and ice sheets from Greenland and parts of Antarctica are melting. The ocean has been absorbing more than 80% of the heat added to the climate system, yet the average temperature of the ocean has increased up to a depth of 3,000 meters, causing seawater to expand and contributing to sea level rise. Schellnhuber, citing his own research, said that at certain "tipping points," higher temperatures could cause areas of the ocean to become deoxygenated, resulting in what he calls "oxygen holes" between 600 and 2,400 feet deep. These are areas so depleted of the gas that they would badly disrupt the food chain. Unabated warming would also lead to "disruption of the monsoon, collapse of the Amazon rain forest and the Greenland ice sheet will meltdown," he said. Scientists must make clear the disastrous effects of climate change so the world takes action now to cut carbon emissions, leading economist Nicholas Stern said on told the gathering of 2,000 scientists. "You have to tell people very clearly and strongly just how difficult (a temperature rise of) four, five, six or seven degrees Celsius is," he said. "Billions of people would have to move and there would be very severe conflict," said Stern, a professor at the London School of Economics and a former British Treasury economist. "That's a story that must be told to persuade people it's a very bad idea to go anywhere near five degrees. This is not a black swan, this is a big probability of a devastating outcome," he Posted by Casey Kazan Sources: http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/13/scientist-warming-could-cut-population-to-1-billion/ http://www-ramanathan.ucsd.edu/dai/Schellnhuber-PNAS-2008.pdf http://www.copenhagenclimatecouncil.com/get-informed/news/scientists-deliver-politicians-key-messages-for-copenhagen-climate-talks.html http://www.copenhagenclimatecouncil.com/get-informed/news/clear-and-present-danger-a-conversation-with-nobel-laureate-steve-chu-on-the-risks-of-climate-change.html http://in.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idINTRE52B37Q20090312?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0 From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:25:29 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:25:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903161125p62f3d9adn5ecc316a3a37771b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/16 Dagon Gmail : > If you are right, I will at some time in the future be proven wrong, and I > will shrug and spend time on other things. Mmhhh. "Deniers" may well end up as the victims of some sort of witch hunting even *before* we get to any final conclusion as to the existence of GW and to the effectiveness of the reduction of anthropic carbon emissions to fight it. But it is not as if an unconditional fight against supposed "warming" factors does not have price in terms of human lives. In principle, today millions *do* die and suffer for different causes the solution of which may well be made impossible, limited, or postponed owing the choice of such an altogether different priority; or even may in some instances be facing a reduction of life expectancy owing to allegedly warming-reducing measures, etc. We have recently discussed the difficult nature of death figures attribution, and how many victims can sofar be directly "credited" to GW? -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:37:17 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:37:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903161137y5545bd08o7a7211ce329ca9ac@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Quote from below: "Eleven of the last 12 years (1995-2006) rank among the > warmest years in global surface temperature since 1850." To tell the truth, --- I am unconditionally favourable to climate research - as to any other research, actually :-) -, --- I am rather inclined to believe that GW may exist after all to some extent, --- I have a few more doubts that it is largely anthropic, and --- I am not persuaded at all that any price would be OK to pay in order to fight it, without an at least approximate assessment of where the costs and effectiveness of related measures cross the line of the expected damages. In particular, I do not believe for a moment that GW is an "existential" risk as defined by our friends who are recently concentrating on the subject; nor that even in such case we should act only on the side of limiting warming factors, and not at all on the sides of planned adaptation and possible remedial measures of a geo-engineering nature. More in general, I hate histerical and religious propaganda of obviously neoluddite tones on what is, and should be considered as, a technical issue. -- Stefano Vaj From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:41:36 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:41:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SciFi become Syfy Message-ID: <29666bf30903161141l4d888ae2w4c02ec195955f965@mail.gmail.com> I will refrain from comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me. PJ http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/03/sci_fi_channel_aims_to_shed_ge.php From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 19:55:40 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:55:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com><971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: ________________________________ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dagon Gmail Subject: Re: [ExI] global warming again Spike, >...If you are right, I will at some time in the future be proven wrong, and I will shrug and spend time on other things... Hi G, this notion reminds me of Pascal's wager regarding the existence of heaven. But even if you are very young, you and I are quite unlikely to live long enough to see any appreciable shift in climate. Do read on please. >...If you are wrong, you will be on the record as a climate change denier, for all the world, and as the millions die around you, some people may be inclined to look you up and (proverbially I hope) string you up to the nearest lamp post... But G-meister, I am immune from angry mobs. I own farmland which is actively drawing CO2 out of the atmosphere at this very moment, making me eligible for environmental sainthood. Even with my 3/4 ton pickup and Lincoln town car, my carbon footprint is waaay negative, far more negative than the local vegetarian prius drivers. Is yours? {8-] Buy a farm, fight Gorebal warming. Keep your day job tho, you will need it to support your farming habit. On the contrary, in any case. Even the most pessimistic (but sane) global warmers are not promising shriveling continents and starving millions. Even the pessimistic models predict that sea level rise is sufficiently gradual that we would have *plenty* of time to move our great coastal cities inland, and design the the durn things correctly this time. Much of the sea level rise prediction was based on the notion of the Greenland ice sheet melting if the global temperature rise was 3C. But more recently, the mainstream science predicts the Greenland ice shelf can tolerate about a 6C rise, and that the ice was present thru a previous 5C rise. http://esciencenews.com/sources/the.guardian.science/2009/03/10/greenland.ic e.tipping.point.may.be.further.feared Hurricanes need not thrash economies and countries. We Americans built a huge city below sea level on the Gulf coast (why did we do that, fer cryin out loud!) One could go there and enjoy the novelty of looking up to see a ship floating by on a river over head. Well duh! How stupid is that? Cities shouldn't be built like that. In Katrina that city took a beating, then it became a major political football instead of an object lesson in the stupidity and hubris of building there in the first place. ...The stakes are very high for deniers, and they might up the subject in mob violence... Mob violence is a real threat, but I don't worry about it being because of climate change. Political leaders incite mob violence. The climate? Doubt it. How would the mob know when and where to attack? Would they wait until the next major hurricane and then go wreck a coal power plant? But what if they do? Did any of them use electricity? Burn gasoline? Eat? We have had exactly one major hurricane hit the US since the really bad 2005 season. Pacific cyclone activity is also down: http://coaps.fsu.edu/ (second story down, titled "Study Shows No Long-Term Trend in Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone Activity" http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2008GL035946.shtml So what happens when the next major hurricane smacks us and causes a lotta damage? Is it then angry mob time? Do we have a big global warming rally, go lamp-post-lynch the nearest Cadillac SUV driver with a faded McCain/Palin sticker on her bumper? What if someone in the mob points out that it has been quite a while since the last major hurricane, and that the years since 2005 have actually been pretty hurri-calm, and that we were overdue for another biggie anyways? At what point do we have angry mobs disappointed at the low hurricane activity? At what time do we have thundering hordes alarmed by decreasing temperatures? Why is it that one result gives us enraged murderous mobs and the other gives us faceless masses shrugging and going off to do something else? This is an important point, because it seems so backwards to me. We were introduced to the notion of global warming during my own misspent youth in 1973, by the excellent and scary movie Soylent Green (do check it out.) At that time there was a competing theory of global cooling. Back then we could shrug off global warming, for it appeared to me that this planet is about 5C to 10C cooler than optimal for human habitation (I grew up in Florida.) But cooling was the one I worried about, for it was easy to see how just a little cooling could screw us bigtime. Shorter growing seasons, more killer cold snaps, more crop failures, more starvation, more New Yorkers looking for winter homes in the neighborhood, (oh mercy). Humans live in every hot place on the planet (assuming they can get water) but plenty of land on this planet is off limits to humans because of being too cold. We can deal with all the stuff they tell us will come with global warming. Mosquitoes? We can deal with it. Rising sea levels? We can do that. Angry mobs? We can handle those too. But global cooling? It isn't clear to me how to combat that problem, and at what point we even recognize that it is happening. We still need to grow crops outdoors, and will for some time to come. Global cooling is really scary; warming, not so much. And what if we do measure cooling? Do we then intentionally emit more CO2? That being said, I think we are seeing a major transition happening before our eyes just in the past year. Could be just my perception, but it seems the scientific consensus on warming was in place a couple years ago, but is not today. Those ridiculing globaloney warming are showing up in greater numbers and increasing boldness every day. I am one of them. On at least some of the wilder notions, I am calling 1-800-bullshit. Our current president assured us in June 2008 that "...this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal..." The data isn't at all clear, but there was an apparent temperature inflection point right about late 2000, early 2001. Was Gaia appeased by the election of W? http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ And perhaps another one right about late 2008, possibly back towards warming. Too early to tell. The recent fad of blaming global warming for global cooling doesn't work for me either. All these notions depend on the span over which climate data is averaged and how the data is measured. We are forced to admit that we *still* don't really know that much about long term climate trends. We really don't know! Still! We know that ice sheets are retreating, but they have been for a long time before the Goreacle uttered his first jeremiad, since before humans mastered fire and appeared in significant numbers. spike From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 20:28:14 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:28:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:55 PM, spike wrote: > On the contrary, in any case. ?Even the most pessimistic (but sane) global > warmers are not promising shriveling continents and starving millions. ?Even > the pessimistic models predict that sea level rise is sufficiently gradual > that we would have *plenty* of time to move our great coastal cities inland, > and design the the durn things correctly this time. ?Much of the sea level > rise prediction was based on the notion of the Greenland ice sheet melting > if the global temperature rise was 3C. ?But more recently, the mainstream > science predicts the Greenland ice shelf can tolerate about a 6C rise, and > that the ice was present thru a previous 5C rise. In fact, apparently humankind was already more or less happily around during repeated cycles where no Arctic ice whatsoever existed, in spite of of the rather limited paleolithical technology. This should put to rest the ludicrous notion that higher average seasonal temperatures in the one-digit range would be "incompatible with the survival of our species on Earth". Entirely different issues are of course whether we should hope for a warmer or cooler climate, and in either case what if anything we should do about that. -- Stefano Vaj From max at maxmore.com Mon Mar 16 20:45:51 2009 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:45:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again Message-ID: <200903162046.n2GKjxL7011196@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Results of the forecasting principles audit of the IPCC report: http://www.forecastingprinciples.com/Public_Policy/Forecasting_Audit_combined2.pdf Max More, Ph.D. Strategic Philosopher www.maxmore.com max at maxmore.com From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 21:00:21 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:00:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net><7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com><971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj >... > This should put to rest the ludicrous notion that higher > average seasonal temperatures in the one-digit range would be > "incompatible with the survival of our species on Earth"... Sefano, I honestly do not understand how that whole notion got so much mileage when we can see plenty of people prospering in much warmer climates than that which you and I live. Italy isn't nearly as warm as some other places, ja? So we would wear less clothing. That would be a good thing in itself. I would be so horny all the time. > Entirely different issues are of course whether we should > hope for a warmer or cooler climate, and in either case what > if anything we should do about that... Stefano Vaj It's not so much hoping, but rather what are we actually doing, especially when it comes to investing my own sacred money. Currently I am expressing skepticism while actually betting with the global warming people, for I am contemplating planting a buttload of trees at the cool edge of their viable range. If the global warming people come thru, fine for me. If the global cooling people are right, I lose my sacred money and go hungry. They scare me. So you see, money is the root of all evil. Except of course when it is in *my* grubby paws, at which time it becomes the root of all good. And the trunk and branches as well, and I am the leaves. spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 21:25:07 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:25:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drinkers of coffees and those who leer at pornography Message-ID: I am crushed. All this time I have eschewed Starbucks in favor of McDonald coffee, to show solidarity with the Palestinians (or because it costs a third as much, take your pick) and now I find that it too is Jewish-Zionist. All this time I assumed it was good old American redneck Ray Kroc. http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2050.htm "They [the Jews]began conspiring to annihilate the Islamic and Arab nation, to plunder its resources, and to destroy its youth. Regretfully, the plots they hatched are being implemented today in detail. One of their conspiracies, which stemmed from their black hatred, was to gain control over the entire global economy, bringing the world under their thumb. So they founded huge companies, which, like spiders, send their webs all over the world. The main goal of these companies was to erase Islamic identity. .... Many basic products, which may be found in many Muslim households, like the Ariel, Tide, and Persil laundry detergents, are made by Zionist companies. The Coca Cola and Pepsi companies and all their products - Seven Up, Miranda, Fania, and all these products, all the carbonated beverages, with very few exceptions that don't bear mention... Almost all the carbonated beverages are Zionist-American products. [...] Some restaurants, I'm sad to say, are teeming with Muslim youth, and their safes are full of the money of Muslims... McDonalds is Jewish-Zionist, Kentucky Fried Chicken is Jewish-Zionist, Little Caesar, Pizza Hut, Domino's Pizza, Burger King... By the way, all these products, which I have mentioned... In addition, there is a new type of coffee these days... All these are pure Zionist products, especially what is known as Starbucks, the well-known coffee. It is Zionist..." The main goal of these companies was never to make money, but rather to erase Islamic identity! Whatever shall I do? This author hits close to home when he decries those who leer at pornography. For the record *I do not leer at pornography.* I may *admire* pornography, and occasionally *drool over* pornography, and perhaps even hold pornography in high esteem. With one hand, but leer? Never. Where shall I buy coffee now? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 16 21:54:18 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:54:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090316165243.025e1390@satx.rr.com> At 02:00 PM 3/16/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: >So we would wear less clothing. That would be a good thing in >itself. I would be so horny all the time. There are rumors that this is already the case. (In a completely extropian fashion, naturally.) Damien Broderick From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 21:56:49 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:56:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 10:00 PM, spike wrote: > Stefano, I honestly do not understand how that whole notion got so much > mileage when we can see plenty of people prospering in much warmer climates > than that which you and I live. Italy isn't nearly as warm as some other > places, ja? So we would wear less clothing. That would be a good thing in > itself. I would be so horny all the time. Frankly, I am more into "critical theory" than in climatology, global economics or planetary physics. Accordingly, I can tell you with assurance that I have good philosophical grounds to hate the "GW culture", and I have no qualms in demistifying its tenets, including where they come from and what they are aiming at. The fact in particular that GW propaganda is much more popular in Scandinavia or Canada (!) than in Nigeria or Equador or Malaysia gives one pause. As to the merits? I think that suspending judgment is a reasonable enough position for me. Yet, agnosticism may well already imply here some conclusions as to the "burden of proof"... :-) Moreover, I know for a fact that humankind thrived with much warmer climates than we know today, and this debunk all notion of "impending extinction unless...", whatever the economical consequences of a possible anthropic or non-anthropic GW may be for real estate owners in Manhattan or Venice and at least as far as one-digit temperature raises are concerned. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:01:12 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:01:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drinkers of coffees and those who leer at pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20903161501g69bd57a8h88f7c4c8032c880a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/16 spike > > I am crushed. All this time I have eschewed Starbucks in favor of McDonald > coffee, to show solidarity with the Palestinians (or because it costs a > third as much, take your pick) and now I find that it too is > Jewish-Zionist. All this time I assumed it was good old American redneck > Ray Kroc. > Be it as it may, Starbucks, besides being a client of mine in Europe, is way better than McDonald as far as coffee is concerned... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 16 22:13:20 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:13:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090316170236.023fd828@satx.rr.com> At 10:56 PM 3/16/2009 +0100, Stefano wrote: >I know for a fact that humankind thrived with much warmer climates >than we know today, and this debunk all notion of "impending >extinction unless...", Not sure which epochs or eras you have in mind, but I suspect the global biosphere was significantly different and vastly less monocropped on a huge scale than it is now, and humans lived very differently. And we mustn't oversimplify the discussion: nobody with any sense, I think, is imagining a smooth planetary rise in temperature until we're all boiling. What's being discussed is increasingly unsettled "mixing," turbulence, unpredictable changes in local ecologies. On top of that, potential "tipping point" catastrophes with huge consequences, especially in the oceans. Dwellers in a global urban economy eating food grown and harvested by oil-fed machines can't just climb to their feet and trudge off to a nicer region to the north, following the animals. For a start, the newly nicer regions will already have people living in them. The scientific consensus might still be somewhat up for grabs, but the majority position surely isn't *silly*, or a Hollywood conspiracy of wicked lefties. Damien Broderick From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Mar 16 22:34:48 2009 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:34:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SciFi become Syfy In-Reply-To: <29666bf30903161141l4d888ae2w4c02ec195955f965@mail.gmail.com> References: <29666bf30903161141l4d888ae2w4c02ec195955f965@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 16 Mar, 2009, at 14:41, PJ Manney wrote: > I will refrain from comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me. > > PJ > > > I don't know about you, but I'm part of that 18-34 yo technically- savvy crowd and I would -never- text it as Syfy. I'd text it as SFF, the way the Ghods intended it. :) B -- Brent Neal http://brentn.freeshell.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:37:22 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:37:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/16 Dagon Gmail : > Spike, > > If you are right, I will at some time in the future be proven wrong, and I > will shrug and spend time on other things. > > If you are wrong, you will be on the record as a climate change denier, for > all the world, and as the millions > die around you, some people may be inclined to look you up and (proverbially > I hope) string you up to the nearest > lamp post. For the record, Spike is in the top 3 contributors to a project that will comprehensively cope with global warming or global cooling. It is will also deal with the fossil fuel crisis that's far more likely to cause gigadeath than either warming or cooling. > The stakes are very high for deniers, and they might up the subject in mob > violence. Someone out there is > maintaining a list with quotes and dates, spike. Will you sleep soundly as > continents shrivel, millions starve, > sealevels rise and hurricanes thrash economies and countries? Million starving is nothing. The models show a fall in the world population from a peak of around 7 billion to one or two billion at the end of the century on energy problems alone unless there is a solution that provides energy at the tens of TW level. One third of human food is the result of energy hungry nitrogen fixation. I know what Spike is doing, I don't know what others are up to. Can you enlighten us? Keith Henson From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 16 23:05:20 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:05:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] last chapter of darwin's origin of species In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1353621CACA548D4AB929BDCD1DA5211@spike> All of Darwin's book is excellent, but the last chapter soars with eagles. If you only have ten minutes, do consider using those ten minutes to read this stunning last chapter of Origin of the Species: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter14.html What amazes and impresses me about Darwin's book is how this man really observed beasts, carefully and diligently observed them. In his day he had no underlying unifying theory, so everything was observational. So impressive is the way Darwin puzzled and puzzled over ants in chapter 7: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter7.html Notable is this, not just because I am a huge fan of ants but because Darwin was so convincing as he drives home the notion that nature is comprehensible, that her mysteries really can be understood thru diligent observation and rigorous application of logic. The whole thing is here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin.html Isn't it amazing how well this work has aged? After 150 years, it still has so much to say to us, and so much of it is right on the money. What other scientific work is like that? Newton's Principia. Einstein's special relativity. Others? Check this, Is this the coolest thing you ever saw or what? http://www.youtube.com/user/SeaWorldFL What I want to know is if they only recently started doing this. The video makes it sound that way. Do they do it only at SeaWorld? Did the dolphins really develop a technology, a toy, right in front of us? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 17 00:14:07 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:14:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] mosquitos again Message-ID: <30AD0DF3ED57448394A17481174DDF31@spike> spike wrote: Cool! About ten years ago in this forum I posted about using SDI-derived raster laser technology to detect and slay mosquitos. Looks like a group of Royal Smart Persons figured out a way to do it: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123680870885500701.html spike Eugene Leitl posted me offlist reminding me he posted on the topic of using lasers to zap mosquitoes in the late 80s, about 6 years before I began lurking on ExI-chat. Turns out there is a directed energy weapon aiming technique that uses a two axis fast steering mirror to create a lissajous pattern in a given area. http://www.jmargolin.com/mtest/LJfigs.htm It was pioneered in the 1980s as a way to shoot down incoming missiles with a directed energy beam, or with particle beam weapons. We may see such a thing in action soon if the Iranians decide to fire missiles at Israel. Let us fondly hope not. Be that as it may, the light source traces a lissajous pattern on a given area in the sky and examines the return signal. From this it determines what is the object in the sky, and if it is an incoming missile (or in another application a mosquito) it sends a mighty flash of light at the object. If you lie nekkid in the sun for ten minutes, you may get the start of a nice tan, but even the chalkiest doughboys among us would be unlikely to get a sunburn in ten minutes. Yet if you received that same dose of solar flux in one tenth of a second, you would be unlikely to survive, for it would ruin your skin and raise your body temperature quickly. Likewise, the amount of energy in a typical camera flash is plenty to slay a mosquito if we manage to get it all on her simultaneously to raise her body temperature 30C. The article above doesn't say, but I can imagine using SDI tech to identify and shoot down individual mosquitoes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 01:05:03 2009 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:05:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] SciFi become Syfy In-Reply-To: <29666bf30903161141l4d888ae2w4c02ec195955f965@mail.gmail.com> References: <29666bf30903161141l4d888ae2w4c02ec195955f965@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62c14240903161805n5cf50eaasf2fc4de923a52863@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:41 PM, PJ Manney wrote: > I will refrain from comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me. > > PJ > > http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/03/sci_fi_channel_aims_to_shed_ge.php SciFi is already broken. Rebranding themselves away from both science and fiction to make "dramedies" and "reality TV" is the final nail in SciFi's coffin. I think they realized when Ghost Hunters became the highest rated show in their network's history that they were on a slippery slope. I understand, but I have to chuckle at 'SyFy' because it reeks of Idiocracy. An alternate "SighFi" was considered, but quickly ruled out because test audiences were uncomfortable with the juxtaposition of "ghf" despite the more accuately descriptive moniker. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 17 02:48:02 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:48:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amortality In-Reply-To: <1353621CACA548D4AB929BDCD1DA5211@spike> References: <1353621CACA548D4AB929BDCD1DA5211@spike> Message-ID: Here's an article that contains some names familiar to this crowd: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1 884758,00.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 17 05:12:23 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:12:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who needs humans? In-Reply-To: References: <1353621CACA548D4AB929BDCD1DA5211@spike> Message-ID: We are sooo getting closer to replacing ourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brD5D0ytD04 http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/16/japans-hrp-4c-fashion-model-robot-unveile d-already-harassed/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 05:54:30 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:54:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who needs humans? In-Reply-To: References: <1353621CACA548D4AB929BDCD1DA5211@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670903162254j7bba00c0tf357df651d523e91@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/16 spike > We are sooo getting closer to replacing ourselves: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brD5D0ytD04 > > > http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/16/japans-hrp-4c-fashion-model-robot-unveiled-already-harassed/ > > It is both a very eerie and exciting sight. I remember a number of years ago reading that to program/build a robot to walk like a bipedal humanoid (especially for going upstairs/downstairs) would be a monumental feat that would take much longer than it actually did. I am so glad the Japanese have their fascination (and willingness to use lots of resources) with bipedal humanoid robots. They are making good progress in a field that perhaps the West might have neglected for awhile. I wonder where they will be a decade from now? Two decades? Three? Especially, if the Singularity does not arrive within the relative near-future. John Grigg P.S. Guess what film I'm watching right now..., "Small Soldiers." They just got done with the crazy Barbies scene. hee I hope these Japanese androids don't ever go half as bonkers! lol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 17 06:24:45 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:24:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <580930c20903160446l417b9d87r3fbc685b5253e433@mail.gmail.com> References: <85252.45311.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903120636q25556ca0hfaa38d04c5cecb37@mail.gmail.com> <08B16E2A-79C6-4B57-B700-89B9F3CDBA94@gmail.com> <49BD66EB.907@rawbw.com> <580930c20903160446l417b9d87r3fbc685b5253e433@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49BF422D.60000@rawbw.com> Stefano wrote > Think in modern times of the internment of dangerously deranged > psychopaths, or of aliens in wartime, or the expulsion of unwanted > immigrants, or the order to stay away from a given area or person, > which does not require evidence of any actual "guilt" of anything, nor > is aimed per se at any "punishment". > > Now, the entire notion has become distinctly unfashionable in western > democracies, especially after the sixties, and this makes for a > distorsive [distorted] use of criminal remedies "to keep them out > of the street", little else being legally available to concerned people. Yes, a difficult question. It beats me what principles to follow if "concerned people" really do want to help clearly insane people, and force is the only way. Most communities probably should just forget it. So as much as it pains me, perhaps they were right back in the sixties. >> But far more importantly---a point steadfastly and absurdly ignored >> by our present system---is the hideous relative injustice inflicted >> on the weaker of the prisoners by the stronger. > > This again is hypocritical. We refrain from inflicting any kind of > punishment other than mere detention, so we delegate... other inmates > to make prison life a hellish nightmare. Yes, we totally abdicate responsibility. But it's worse than merely that. Much worse. The very most horrible people in prison are thereby rewarded for being such animals, and any trace of refinement or sensitivity likewise thereby punished. How do the populations of today's nations live with themselves after permitting these practices? >> Often I think that the best solution is solitary confinement. It >> seemed to work out okay for Edmund Dantes, so far as I could tell >> when I read the Dumas book. Severe, yes, but not inhuman. > > I was just mentioning the same example! > > Great minds continue working alike... :-) Right. Now if we can just get the other 7x10^6 - 2 people to go along! Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 17 06:34:24 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:34:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <906798.46969.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <906798.46969.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49BF4470.4070009@rawbw.com> Gordon writes > I believe 'removal' falls under 'deterrence' as I defined it above. As someone explained, removal probably should be seen as a distinct concept: the point of removal is simply to make the behavior impossible, whether or not it happens to have a psychological effect on the subject, and whether or not others may be deterred. > (I'd like to see a reference to support your claim that removal > is a "classic reason" distinct from deterrence, but then you > might consider this splitting hairs.) I only meant that it was an old idea---at least I heard about it a long time ago. At least I called it "the three R's plus D" or something like that. > The real question on my mind (and yours, I think) > concerns the role of retribution. Well, that's a biggie, all right. Though the main point on my mind is the continuing injustices perpetrated within the prisons, e.g. the commodious lifestyles of the incarcerated gang leaders as compared to those they intimidate, beat up, and rape. I used to be totally opposed to retribution in principle, but I've seen (or heard of) too many people lingering on year after year hoping to witness the execution of some criminal who'd killed a loved one. Therefore, I'm open to adding to the weighing of cost vs. benefit the therapeutic effects on the victims. > Simple removal from mainstream society (by cryonic > suspension or by any other means) with no promise of > suffering will certainly deter the guilty from re- > offending, but it may do little to deter the innocent > from offending in the first place. I think it would > reduce or eliminate the number of repeat offenders > but at a cost of more first-time offenders. :-) Yes, but only so long as the logic of cryonics remains obscure to most people. Lee From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 11:39:33 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:39:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] GW and current humankind situation... Message-ID: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > > At 10:56 PM 3/16/2009 +0100, Stefano wrote: > >> I know for a fact that humankind thrived with much warmer climates than we know today, and this debunk all notion of "impending extinction unless...", > > Not sure which epochs or eras you have in mind, but I suspect the global biosphere was significantly different and vastly less monocropped on a huge scale than it is now, and humans lived very differently. Admittedly. Absolutely. But then, if we are not discussing extinction, but "costs", what about the idea that in order to cool the Earth relinquishing industrial civilisation would be an acceptable price? Because in such case we would *still* speaking of a reduction of the Earth population to 1bn, top. Now, the real point is: if it is possible to reduce GW and if it exists in the first place, up to which point it is worth doing, and how? But most GW preachers are exclusively concerned with restoring the peace of Gaia, the rest is details... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 11:50:21 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? Message-ID: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/16/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: >> I believe 'removal' falls under >> 'deterrence' as I defined it above. (I'd like to >> see a reference to support your claim that removal is a >> "classic reason" distinct from deterrence, but >> then you might consider this splitting hairs.) > > How would that be the case? "Removal" has to do > with the dangers it may avoid, not the retribution of > a possible, future guilt to be deterred. I write here in terms of societal goals, and I do not consider simple "removal of the guilty" a goal. I consider it a method by which we hope to achieve the goal of crime deterrence. I see it as a means to an end, not an end in itself. Punishment of the guilty serves the goal of crime deterrence also through example. Again a means to end, not an end in itself. Other related societal goals include retribution and rehabilitation. Should we make the guilty suffer? Should we try to make them better people? Open questions. -gts From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 12:18:29 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? Message-ID: <52765.95342.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > In fact, "to deter" means to make a threat > credible enough to dissuade somebody from a given conduct. According to Webster Online: "de?ter Pronunciation: \di-?t?r, d?-\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): de?terred; de?ter?ring Etymology: Latin deterr?re, from de- + terr?re to frighten ? more at terror Date: circa 1547 1 : to turn aside, discourage, or prevent from acting " I use thee word in all three senses: to turn aside, to discourage, to prevent from acting. > Now, suspension is not much of a threat Right, but it does 'prevent [the guilty party] from acting'. In that way suspension deters crime. It prevents the criminal from re-offending. But as I mentioned to Lee, it may not deter an innocent from committing a first offense, for exactly the reason you cite: it's not much of a threat. Some might even view it as a reward. -gts From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 17 12:36:10 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <49BF4470.4070009@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <704394.37251.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 3/17/09, Lee Corbin wrote: >> I believe 'removal' falls under 'deterrence' as I defined it above. > > As someone explained, removal probably should be seen as > a distinct concept Perhaps, but see the definition of "deter" in my last post to Stefano. Its meaning includes "to prevent from acting". >> The real question on my mind (and yours, I think) >> concerns the role of retribution. > > Well, that's a biggie, all right. Though the main point > on my mind is the continuing injustices perpetrated > within the prisons, e.g. the commodious lifestyles of > the incarcerated gang leaders as compared to those they > intimidate, beat up, and rape. Violent gang leaders who continue to act badly behind bars often get sent to "Supermax" prisons. According to some, these prisons violate the 8th Amendment's proscription against cruel and unusual punishment. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax -gts From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:09:41 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:09:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <52765.95342.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <52765.95342.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/09, Gordon Swobe wrote: > According to Webster Online: > de?ter: to turn aside, discourage, or prevent from acting > > I use the word in all three senses: to turn aside, to discourage, > to prevent from acting. > > But as I mentioned to Lee, it may not deter an innocent from committing a first > offense, for exactly the reason you cite: it's not much of a threat. Some might > even view it as a reward. > In the UK, where apparently prisons are not as brutalized as in the US, prisons do not appear to be much of a deterrent. As much of the prison population is mentally sub-normal, socially inadequate, drug addicts, etc. they just cannot cope with life outside of prison. Many inmates return to their prison 'home' within days or weeks of their release. BillK From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Mar 17 13:44:32 2009 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <704394.37251.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704394.37251.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33743.12.77.169.14.1237297472.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > Violent gang leaders who continue to act badly behind bars often get sent to > "Supermax" prisons. According to some, these prisons violate the 8th Amendment's > proscription against cruel and unusual punishment. > > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax > IMHO being sent to any prison in which one is (without recourse) raped, molested, and abused by other prisoners would be cruel and unusual punishment. The very idea of being locked up and regimented is enough to freak me. (I was sent to a boarding school as a teen.) Regards, MB From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 14:55:22 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:55:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: <52765.95342.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <52765.95342.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903170755g65915da6qf68ded372ea0acf4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Gordon Swobe wrote: > According to Webster Online: > "de?ter > 1 : to turn aside, discourage, or prevent from acting " > > Right, but it does 'prevent [the guilty party] from acting'. In that way suspension deters crime. It prevents the criminal from re-offending. My English is admittedly poor, but my Latin is not, and at least etimologically speaking deterrence implies a prevention through *terror*, not any kind of prevention, e.g., physical restriction. But of course it is just a matter of understanding one another, not of philological disputes... ;-) -- Stefano Vaj From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:49:31 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:49:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GW and current humankind situation... In-Reply-To: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/17 Stefano Vaj : snip > Admittedly. Absolutely. But then, if we are not discussing extinction, > but "costs", what about the idea that in order to cool the Earth > relinquishing industrial civilization would be an acceptable price? > > Because in such case we would *still* speaking of a reduction of the > Earth population to 1bn, top. > > Now, the real point is: if it is possible to reduce GW and if it > exists in the first place, up to which point it is worth doing, and > how? But most GW preachers are exclusively concerned with restoring > the peace of Gaia, the rest is details... http://www.steekr.com/n/50-17/share/LNK361149bedca6a142a/ Keith From spike66 at att.net Tue Mar 17 16:12:40 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:12:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GW and current humankind situation... In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Keith Henson > ...But most GW preachers are exclusively concerned with restoring > > the peace of Gaia, the rest is details... > > http://www.steekr.com/n/50-17/share/LNK361149bedca6a142a/ > > Keith Hi Keith, this is a great pitch. I did have one comment on cosmetics: on those pages where you have really big font, do consider reducing the font size without changing the text. It is OK to have a lotta white space on a slide with normal sized font, try it out. That is a technique used a lot at the rocket ranch: if you have a comment you want to emphasize, you put it in ordinary font all alone on its own slide, centered left to right and top to bottom, with plenty of white space everywhere. I took it to an extreme, by putting the really important takeaway message in two sizes smaller font, by itself on its own slide, because then it is like lowering one's voice for the punchline, or whispering really juicy watercooler gossip, and everyone gets quiet and leans forward a bit. {8^D spike From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Mar 17 17:05:41 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <49BFD865.7070208@libero.it> Il 09/03/2009 10.26, BillK ha scritto: > On 3/9/09, spike wrote: >> Cool, thanks Fred, that explanation sounds reasonable. I don't >> think the clowns that wrote that silly piece have anything to do >> with the Lancet, which I recall as being quite careful and >> credible, other than an absurd claim about the number of war deaths >> in Iraq a few years ago. I shoulda checked it before assuming all >> is as it claimed to be. Apologies Lancet, welcome back. > The Lancet piece about Iraq war deaths is still regarded as best > practice. > Quote: The ORB and Lancet survey figures are the only statistically > accurate casualty figures which are intended to show the total deaths > (rather than lower limits, provided by surveys of only those deaths > reported to authorities or media agencies). I would reconsider this claim: http://www.aapor.org/aaporfindsgilbertburnhaminviolationofethicscode AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code > Press Release ? February 4, 2009 > > AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code > > Wednesday, February 3, 2009 -- The Executive Council of the American > Association for Public Opinion Research (AAPOR) announced Tuesday > that an 8-month investigation found that Dr. Gilbert Burnham violated > the Association's Code of Professional Ethics & Practices. > > AAPOR found that Burnham, a faculty member at the Johns Hopkins > Bloomberg School of Public Health, repeatedly refused to make public > essential facts about his research on civilian deaths in Iraq. In > particular, the AAPOR inquiry focused on Burnham?s publication of > results from a survey reported in the October 2006 issue of the > journal Lancet. When asked to provide several basic facts about this > research, Burnham refused. > > AAPOR holds that researchers must disclose, or make available for > public disclosure, the wording of questions and other basic > methodological details when survey findings are made public. This > disclosure is important so that claims made on the basis of survey > research findings can be independently evaluated. Section III of the > AAPOR Code states: "Good professional practice imposes the obligation > upon all public opinion researchers to include, in any report of > research results, or to make available when that report is released, > certain essential information about how the research was conducted." > > Mary E. Losch, chair of AAPOR's Standards Committee, noted that > AAPOR's investigation of Burnham began in March 2008, after receiving > a complaint from a member. According to Losch, "AAPOR formally > requested on more than one occasion from Dr. Burnham some basic > information about his survey including, for example, the wording of > the questions he used, instructions and explanations that were > provided to respondents, and a summary of the outcomes for all > households selected as potential participants in the survey. Dr. > Burnham provided only partial information and explicitly refused to > provide complete information about the basic elements of his > research.? > > AAPOR's President, Richard A. Kulka, added "When researchers draw > important conclusions and make public statements and arguments based > on survey research data, then subsequently refuse to answer even > basic questions about how their research was conducted, this violates > the fundamental standards of science, seriously undermines open > public debate on critical issues, and undermines the credibility of > all survey and public opinion research. These concerns have been at > the foundation of AAPOR?s standards and professional code throughout > our history, and when these principles have clearly been violated, > making the public aware of these violations is in integral part of > our mission and values as a professional organization." > > AAPOR is the leading professional organization of public opinion and > survey research professionals in the U.S., with nearly 2,200 members > from government agencies, colleges and universities, nonprofit > organizations, media corporations, and commercial polling firms. It > is committed to the principle that public opinion research is > essential to a healthy democracy, providing information crucial to > informed policymaking and giving voice to the nation?s beliefs, > attitudes, desires, and shared experiences. To ensure that public > opinion research can continue to play this critical role, AAPOR has a > strong interest in protecting and strengthening the credibility of > survey research. AAPOR promotes the sound and ethical conduct and use > of public opinion research, along with greater public awareness of > these standards. > > Burnham is not a member of the organization Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:26:01 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:26:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] GW and current humankind situation... In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903171026y4ab6d34dic40a2fd1865d1aef@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >> Now, the real point is: if it is possible to reduce GW and if it >> exists in the first place, up to which point it is worth doing, and >> how? But most GW preachers are exclusively concerned with restoring >> the peace of Gaia, the rest is details... > http://www.steekr.com/n/50-17/share/LNK361149bedca6a142a/ Yes, OK, no need for that, I am already a convert... :-) In fact, in the mid to long term, once one gets a cheap and abundant enough source of energy, anything can be done, including large-scale energy-negative carbon sequestering or even building up a big refrigerator to keep Earth cool even with macroscopic carbon levels in the atmosphere... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 17 17:28:46 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:28:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] GW and current humankind situation... In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903170439p4ff9b439u7cd1ee43e77e44d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090317122706.0237a4c0@satx.rr.com> At 08:49 AM 3/17/2009 -0700, KH wrote: >http://www.steekr.com/n/50-17/share/LNK361149bedca6a142a/ Intensely trivial point: Fix early slide: Presented in a different from => Presented in a different form From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 00:12:55 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:42:55 +1030 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA In-Reply-To: <580930c20903120625re656a94xefc386661325d18a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903120625re656a94xefc386661325d18a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903171712u1e1cbf3as6a78811d64d331cd@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/12 Stefano Vaj : > On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote: >> I'm skeptical of anything that claims to be the new _something that already >> exists_. >> dude 1: "It's like sliced bread, only better... because the slices go in >> another dimension" >> dude 2: "Isn't that just another kind of sliced bread?" >> dude 1: "No, this is awesomer... 'cuz it's new." > > :-) > >> WolframAlpha is no doubt high profile (with status and funding to match). >> However, these guys have also been at it for a while: >> http://www.trueknowledge.com/ > > I am usually fond of Wolfram ideas and projects, but I cannot really > say that I could understand what Alpha is really about, besides > buzzwords, innuendos and hype. It's the batcomputer. You ask it a question and it gives you the answer. This is unlike google, of which you can ask a question, but you get a list of links back. Check out that trueknowledge link above, it gives a good idea of the concept, although it also exposes inherent problems; I had great trouble finding a question that it could answer. I hope WolframAlpha is going to be a bit more knowledgeable than that. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 00:15:46 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:45:46 +1030 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA In-Reply-To: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903171715m7db60d2etb69342b0558e4a35@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/12 Frank McElligott : > Just recently GOOGLE stock closed under 300 dollars. As almost 85% of web > searching is done via it, there stood no reason for this decline from 600 > dollars? a few months ago. > > While trying to find out why , I know the market has crashed but this > company? has 85% market share, I ran across this article concerning WOLFRAM > ALPHA which stated that it will be the new GOOGLE. > http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-answers-to-factual-questions-this-is-going-to-be-big/ > Thought I would share it with you Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what this new thing is like. (btw, do you just mash the keyboard with your fist when writing the subject line? What gives there?) -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 05:18:48 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:48:48 +1030 Subject: [ExI] =?iso-8859-1?q?Teens_capture_images_of_space_with_=A356_cam?= =?iso-8859-1?q?era_and_balloon?= Message-ID: <710b78fc0903172218h36857cf0ve2232568935511a@mail.gmail.com> Teens capture images of space with ?56 camera and balloon http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=62007681318&h=RIri2&u=j-EpD&ref=nf -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From jonkc at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 18 05:25:02 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:25:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com><971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike><580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com><08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> Stefano wrote: > I know for a fact that humankind thrived with > much warmer climates than we know today, > and this debunk all notion of "impending extinction unless..." I'm not sure about the "humankind" part as the history of that species is very short, but it is true that for most of the history of life the climate has been much warmer than it is now. In the last billion years it has never been warmer than during the Carboniferous Era and I don't believe life has ever been quite that dense again. And it's not surprising that environmental organizations spread fear and warn of impending extinction, they do it for the same reason that drug enforcement organizations warn of the dangers of legalizing marihuana. It's how they make their living. Most science stories are under reported, but this one is over reported. It bores me for 2 reasons: 1) This "huge problem" has up to now not caused any problems. 2) If in the future if it does cause problems we will have to deal with it then because right now with our technology there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. All the "solutions" I've seen are just gestures, multi trillion gestures that would drive the world into poverty and make the money lost in the sub prime mortgage crisis look like chump change. And still it would just be a gesture. Damien Broderick" Dwellers in a global urban economy eating food grown and harvested by > oil-fed machines can't just climb to their feet and trudge off to a nicer > region to the north But of course they can and it wouldn't be the first time that population densities have been effected by changes in the climate. > What's being discussed is increasingly unsettled "mixing," turbulence, > unpredictable changes in local ecologies. And yet environmentalists have no trouble at all in predicting all sorts of dreadful things happening in these unpredictable ecologies. As I said that is how they make their living, nobody is going to contribute to them or even pay attention if they say everything is fine. By the way, do you think the exact temperature the earth is right now the one and only perfect temperature for human beings? Al Gore in his silly documentary loved to show people dieing from heat stroke, but he neglected to say that for every one of them about a thousand freeze to death. John K Clark From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 05:49:43 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:49:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903172249x563d0ea7x518c0b09b30b4f85@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 02:01 PM 3/15/2009 -0700, Spike wrote: > >> It is so puzzling. ?What happens if we keep taking measuring and find that >> the recent climate data indicates the globe is actually cooling? > > Or what if the earth is actually flat? Or rhomboid? > > Quote from below: "Eleven of the last 12 years (1995-2006) rank among the > warmest years in global surface temperature since 1850." ### But Damien, of course, if 1998 was very warm, then unless there is discontinuously massive fast cooling, most of the following 10 or 20 years will still be among the warmest years since whenever (i.e. the previous local maximum) - even if there is moderate and steady cooling such as has been observed since 1998. This is just elementary analysis - values in the neighborhood of a local maximum of a continuous function close to the maximum. So far for analysis of the recent historical climate record. As for the rest of the article, it's just your run of the mill hysteria. Give us something more fleshy to sink our wacko denier teeth into. Rafal From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 18 05:58:09 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:58:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903172249x563d0ea7x518c0b09b30b4f85@mail.gmail.co m> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903172249x563d0ea7x518c0b09b30b4f85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090318005631.023ba0b0@satx.rr.com> At 01:49 AM 3/18/2009 -0400, Rafal wrote: >This is just elementary analysis >- values in the neighborhood of a local maximum of a continuous >function close to the maximum. So far for analysis of the recent >historical climate record. Yeah, go on, you smarty--spoil all my fun! Damien Broderick From crwbot at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 06:41:53 2009 From: crwbot at gmail.com (Christopher Whipple) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:41:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Amortality? (Nick Bostrom quoted in Time) Message-ID: <123db6100903172341i57b3395eh753c639041b04c9f@mail.gmail.com> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884758,00.html Amortals don't just dread extinction. They deny it. Ray Kurzweil encourages them to do so. Fantastic Voyage, which the futurist and cryonics enthusiast co-wrote with Terry Grossman, recommends a regimen to forestall aging so that adherents live long enough to take advantage of forthcoming "radical life-extending and life-enhancing technologies." Cambridge University gerontologist Aubrey de Grey is toiling away at just such research in his laboratory. "We are in serious striking distance of stopping aging," says De Grey, founder and chairman of the Methuselah Foundation, which awards the Mprize to each successive research team that breaks the record for the life span of a mouse. It is "bleeding obvious," he adds, that it is possible to extend the human life span indefinitely. "Most people take the view that aging is this natural thing that is going on independently of disease. That's nonsense. The fact is that age-related diseases are age-related diseases because they're the later stages of aging." ..... "The important thing is not how many years have passed since you were born," says Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford, "but where you are in your life, how you think about yourself and what you are able and willing to do." If that doesn't sound like a manifesto for revolution, it's only because amortality has already revolutionized our attitudes toward age. ..... Earlier in the article the author claims to have coined the term "amortality" - but a quick Google search seems to show otherwise. The article doesn't have anything we haven't seen before, but it's always nice to see more attention in the MSM (err, I think?). -c. From crwbot at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 07:01:49 2009 From: crwbot at gmail.com (Christopher Whipple) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:01:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Amortality? (Nick Bostrom quoted in Time) In-Reply-To: <123db6100903172341i57b3395eh753c639041b04c9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <123db6100903172341i57b3395eh753c639041b04c9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <123db6100903180001h369b9af9s89f3bd78e0526f07@mail.gmail.com> Whoops, looks like spike beat me to this. :) -c. On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Christopher Whipple wrote: > http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884758,00.html > > Amortals don't just dread extinction. They deny it. Ray Kurzweil > encourages them to do so. Fantastic Voyage, which the futurist and > cryonics enthusiast co-wrote with Terry Grossman, recommends a regimen > to forestall aging so that adherents live long enough to take > advantage of forthcoming "radical life-extending and life-enhancing > technologies." Cambridge University gerontologist Aubrey de Grey is > toiling away at just such research in his laboratory. "We are in > serious striking distance of stopping aging," says De Grey, founder > and chairman of the Methuselah Foundation, which awards the Mprize to > each successive research team that breaks the record for the life span > of a mouse. It is "bleeding obvious," he adds, that it is possible to > extend the human life span indefinitely. "Most people take the view > that aging is this natural thing that is going on independently of > disease. That's nonsense. The fact is that age-related diseases are > age-related diseases because they're the later stages of aging." > > ..... > > "The important thing is not how many years have passed since you were > born," says Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute > at Oxford, "but where you are in your life, how you think about > yourself and what you are able and willing to do." If that doesn't > sound like a manifesto for revolution, it's only because amortality > has already revolutionized our attitudes toward age. > > ..... > > Earlier in the article the author claims to have coined the term > "amortality" - but a quick Google search seems to show otherwise. ?The > article doesn't have anything we haven't seen before, but it's always > nice to see more attention in the MSM (err, I think?). > > -c. > From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 18 11:02:12 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:02:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist online magazines Message-ID: <486528.4500.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I decided to check out the latest issue of http://www.hplusmagazine.com/ as I hadn't heard anything about the magazine since its launch. The second issue is just as well-presented as the first, but I feel the articles are a little bit shorter and less in-depth than in the first issue. There's still a lot of good stuff in it though. While checking out the Basic Income newsletter that James Hughes occasionally circulates, I decided to look at a few of the websites mentioned. One caught my eye by title alone - http://www.smi2le.org/docs/journal_eng.php Maybe I've read too much Timothy Leary when younger, but I thought I'd check it out. Well, it turns out this is the website for a Ukrainian futurist webzine, with versions in English, Ukrainian, Russian and German. It's point of view is a bit different to many US-centred transhumanist publications, so I found it interesting. Does anyone else have any transhumanist webzine reviews? Tom From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 18 10:53:47 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] punishment Message-ID: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Gordon wrote: (I'd like to see a reference to support your claim that removal is a "classic reason" distinct from deterrence, but then you might consider this splitting hairs.) Lee wrote: I only meant that it was an old idea---at least I heard about it a long time ago. At least I called it "the three R's plus D" or something like that. Well, I remember in my school religious studies textbook (a book so old it quoted Howard Jones lyrics) it mentioned removal, and had four reasons for punishment along the lines of "3 Rs plus D" so Lee's probably not making it up. One of the things that book was discussing was how Christian justice emphasises rehabilitation and the opportunity for criminals to reform their ways, as opposed to purely retributive justice. The wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment mentions six reasons - Rehabilitation, Restoration, Retribution and Deterrence along with two others - Incapacitation (removing the offenders ability to offend again - maybe by keeping prisoners locked away from society until they are "reformed", maybe by castrating rapists, maybe by removing licenses to practise from people who are negligent) and Education. The Education bit says "From German Criminal Law, Punishment can be explained by positive prevention theory to use criminal justice system to teach people what are the social norms for what is correct and acts as a reinforcement. It teaches people to obey the law and eliminates the free-rider principle of people not obeying the law getting away with it." Maybe the German idea of punishment as social reinforcement has merit to it, but I can see libertarians gasping in horror and suggesting that only Restoration and Deterrence are important. Tom From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 12:37:05 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:37:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <49C0EAF1.1090107@libero.it> Il 15/03/2009 22.59, Keith Henson ha scritto: > It doesn't matter. Running out of cheap energy will kill billions > long before either an ice age set in or the ice caps melt. I'm not so sure of this. First there is not a thing called "cheap energy". I, also, don't know what is "cheap". > One interesting point, the proposed carbon taxes in the US are more > than enough to pay for space based solar power. Is this before or after they pay for all bail outs and manager's bonuses? Do you have acconted for the public inefficiencies? > Personally, I am agnostic about the effect of carbon on climate. One > thing is sure though, the oceans will become much more acid. > 100 ppm of CO2 is about 1000 billion tons or close to 1000 cubic km. > We need to put in at least 30 TW to replace fossil fuels. If we put > in another 50 TW, that's enough that in 12 years we could convert 1000 > billion tons of CO2 back into synthetic oil and put it in old oil > fields. Do you ever think about the plant and how them need CO2 to survive? Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 14:02:31 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:02:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> Message-ID: <49C0FEF7.9000404@libero.it> Il 16/03/2009 18.36, Dagon Gmail ha scritto: > If you are wrong, you will be on the record as a climate change denier, > for all the world, and as the millions > die around you, some people may be inclined to look you up and > (proverbially I hope) string you up to the nearest lamp post. I'm sure they will target easier targets, like disabled, welfare dependant people. > The stakes are very high for deniers, and they might up the subject in > mob violence. Someone out there is > maintaining a list with quotes and dates, spike. I'm sure this is the same for the scaremongers. > Will you sleep soundly > as continents shrivel, millions starve, > sealevels rise and hurricanes thrash economies and countries? "Dogs and cats live together" anyone? I would sleep soundly as always. Natural selection is always on. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 14:15:22 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:15:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again In-Reply-To: <580930c20903161137y5545bd08o7a7211ce329ca9ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <49BCE2B3.3050101@lineone.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090315090931.02645278@satx.rr.com> <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <7.0.1.0.2.20090316131427.02748bc8@satx.rr.com> <580930c20903161137y5545bd08o7a7211ce329ca9ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C101FA.2020700@libero.it> Il 16/03/2009 19.37, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > More in general, I hate histerical and religious propaganda of > obviously neoluddite tones on what is, and should be considered as, a > technical issue. :-) I would also add that all people advocating policies for the GW MUST be forced to live with all the limitations they advocate on others first these are forced on the others. Like Mr. Gore being forced to live in a smaller mansion, with a smaller electricity bill, one plane travel / year, and so on. If they want reduce my standard of living, their must be reduced to mine before mine be reduced. I ask too much? It is too much to ask people to walk the talk? Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:34:34 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:34:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] WOFRAM APLHA In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903171712u1e1cbf3as6a78811d64d331cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7E158898874C46D6B36D4F755F704E74@FrankMcElligPC> <62c14240903111832kde4314bh857599b0c881a303@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903120625re656a94xefc386661325d18a@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903171712u1e1cbf3as6a78811d64d331cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903180734g13bd8c5dyaae9834d08846bcf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Emlyn wrote: > 2009/3/12 Stefano Vaj : > It's the batcomputer. You ask it a question and it gives you the > answer. This is unlike google, of which you can ask a question, but > you get a list of links back. Thank you, but it still remains all quite abstract for me. Even "I do not know" is an answer. And if the answer offered is instead "6" or "No" or "A dog", how do I know on what the system's opinion is based, what is the degree of accuracy, what understanding of the context it embodies? Am I getting an automatically-generated wikipedia? A problem solver? A natural-language search engine? -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 14:45:58 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:45:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> Message-ID: <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:25 AM, John K Clark wrote: > 2) If in the future if it does cause problems we will have to deal with it > then because right now with our technology there is absolutely nothing we > can do about it. All the "solutions" I've seen are just gestures, multi > trillion gestures that would drive the world into poverty and make the money > lost in the sub prime mortgage crisis look like chump change. And still it > would just be a gesture. While as already mentioned I am a "possibilist" on GW, this is indeed a serious concern. For instance, doom-mongers usually warn us of the possible - and theoretically plausible - existence of a "tipping point", beyond which runaway positive-feedback loops would take over. Now, it seems bizarre that any serious discussion could not take into account that such a tipping point might already be behind us. Were it the case, I imagine that a case could be presented that we might be better off by burning fossil fuels like mad, as if there were literally no tomorrow, if this marginally increased (the available resources relevant to) our chances to get access in the near future to an large enough energy source (say, space-based solar energy, nuclear fusion, deep geothermy) to allow us to embark in serious remedial action. But even asking question on such aspects, which are normal in ordinary strategic thinking and risk assessment, are taken as blasphemy whenever GW is the subject at hand. -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 14:37:23 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:37:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> <49BCE595.5060300@libero.it> Message-ID: <49C10723.8020403@libero.it> Il 15/03/2009 12.47, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: >> It would be illegal to report it if they feel displeased someone else know >> about it, albeith they feel doing the right thing; it would be illegal if it >> cause criticism about them or Islam. >> In short, it would be illegal to write and say anything that displease them, >> whatever it is. And you would it after. > But it's not something they see as shameful at all; on the contrary, > they see it as a good idea which should be widely promoted. It would > be like the US lying about the fact that they imprison those who sell > recreational drugs because some people see the drug laws as unjust. It don't matter. They kill their daughter for alleged sexual misconducts, and they are proud of this. But you are not allowed to poit out that the girl were a bit too "Western". It is like the Nazi dening the Death Camp and the mistreatemnts of interned people during the war. They were proud of what they did, but they didn' want others to know what they were doing. Not before they did it. You are facing a culture where goals justify all. A culture where contraddictuons are not a problem until they are forced in the public sphere. A culture where the stronger have no limits to what he can do to the weaker. A culture interested in "allowed" and "prohibited" not "right" and "wrong". Whatever Mohammad permitted is "permitted", whatever he prohibited is "prohibited". If Mohammad tortured a Jews to obtain a hidden threasure of the Jew's tribe, this permit all muslim to torture Jews (and other infidels) to obtain wealth that is not surrended to them immediately. They consider it right? Yes They are offended if it is stated by kafir? Yes They want it to be know by kafir? No Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:04:59 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:04:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Tom Nowell wrote: > Well, I remember in my school religious studies textbook (a book so old it quoted Howard Jones lyrics) it mentioned removal, and had four reasons for punishment along the lines of "3 Rs plus D" so Lee's probably not making it up. One of the things that book was discussing was how Christian justice emphasises rehabilitation and the opportunity for criminals to reform their ways, as opposed to purely retributive justice. Yes. In fact, especially capital punishment is considered by traditional catholic doctrine as a *very* effective opportunity for rehabilitation and reform. In particular, it gives prison chaplains an inestimable opportunity to approach criminals under severe stress and an immediate threat to their life, suggesting them if anything to accept a Pascal wager ("if you convert and sincerely repent, what would you have to lose at this point even if no paradisiac reward were there waiting for you?"). -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 15:33:02 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:33:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> Message-ID: <49C1142E.7020702@libero.it> Il 14/03/2009 22.11, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 11:25 PM, spike wrote: > >> Iran has population growth under control and is Persian. These are good and >> promising factors in their favor, yet they are ruled by an apparent madman, >> which is bad. > > You are speaking of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. > He's not a madman, just a politician who speaks > in accord with his cultural idiom. And act in accord with his cultural norms. So, when he tell you about "wiping off" Israel from the map, it is better to listen him. He is not a madman, only a muslim that believe in Islam. He would wipe off Israel from the map (and all its inhabitants) without much remorse, as his cultural idiom and norms allow and demant it. The means to do it are not there for now, but tomorrow.... Mirco From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:37:41 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:37:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/18/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: > In fact, especially capital punishment is considered by traditional > catholic doctrine as a *very* effective opportunity for rehabilitation > and reform. > > In particular, it gives prison chaplains an inestimable opportunity to > approach criminals under severe stress and an immediate threat to > their life, suggesting them if anything to accept a Pascal wager ("if > you convert and sincerely repent, what would you have to lose at this > point even if no paradisiac reward were there waiting for you?"). > The prison system really hates prisoners who won't admit they are guilty. This leads to prisoners who are wrongly convicted being treated far, far worse than those who admit their crime. In the UK, if you give a guilty plea, your sentence is immediately cut in half for being 'co-operative' and saving a lengthy trial. Life sentence murderers are usually out in under ten years (unless it was particularly bad, like a serial killer). The latest case where DNA testing has proved his innocence has been locked up for 27 years, with no option for parole, because he refused to admit to the murder. Now aged 57, he has spent more than half of his life in custody. His conviction was quashed by the Court of Appeal after DNA tests on evidence from the 1979 murder scene showed Mr Hodgson did not carry out the crime. Throughout his jail term Mr Hodgson always protested his innocence, meaning he was never considered for parole. ------------ BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:05:44 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:05:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49C1142E.7020702@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> <49C1142E.7020702@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903181105m4791174cybcf714c2778973e3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > And act in accord with his cultural norms. Don't expect too much from politicians... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 18:09:45 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:09:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <580930c20903150541g3c553574ndd552462227deb30@mail.gmail.com> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <580930c20903150541g3c553574ndd552462227deb30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C138E9.1030708@libero.it> Il 15/03/2009 13.41, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 7:23 AM, spike wrote: >> Saddam didn't comply with UN 1441. He didn't want to look weak in a >> dangerous neighborhood. In retrospect, we now understand that sentiment a >> lot better than we did then. > > It is my impression that basically Saddam has always been manipulated. Oh. Poor sod. > - To invade Iran, with little or no advantage for Iraq and on behalf > of the powers-that-be. Iraq had a clash with Iran the year before the Sha was outed. They had (and have) many reasons to go in war. Good reasons? I don't think so. But we know this after the fact. Had he won the war, he would be considered a successful head of state, great conqueror, etc. The conflict over the Shat-el-Arab is a conflict over OIL and over control on the arab population inside Iran and Iraq and on the shiite population inside and outside Iraq. He miscalculate (not so much) the state of disarray of Iran and of its armed forces and overvalued the power of his armed forces. Not the first or the last of his mistakes. > - To invade Kuwait in the attempt to pay back the debt foolishly > underwritted in order to invade Iran ("go ahead, we shall look in the > other direction"). The US ambassador tell Saddam that, for the US, the border disputes with Kuwait were not US matter. He understood that he could invade the Kuwait and annext it without anyone doing nothing apart talking. > - To take foreign citizens hostages, thus alienating 100% of the > international community and making for the first non-vetoed, unanimous > significant UN decisions ever, and to... release them after (!), in > exchange for nothing, when the damage was done and the need to do so, > if it ever existed, had if anything increased. This is a standard arab / muslim procedure. To take hostages to force people to do things they don't like. Obviusly is a stupid thing to do with the wrong people. > - To resist any reasonable international settlement ("they will never > attack") and to evacuate Kuwait - "if you do so, I promise the > Americans will not actually attack", signed Gorbaciov -, surrendering > a strategic position and allowing the Desert Storm forces an almost > ideal flank attack to an army in disordered retreat, which had to be > disposed of having been inflated by the US to the fourth terrestrial > army in the world; Reasonable for who? The psycology of a thugs in a thug's environment is very different from the psycology of a lawyer in a lawyer's environment. > - To accept whatever conditions the western forces imposed on him that > could weaken his actual ability to resist an attack, only always a > hair too late, and a hair too imprecisely, thus allowing them to raise > constantly their demands; Sometimes people is forced to do things they don't like. Or do things good in the short term and bad in the long term. > It is difficult to believe that Saddam Hussein could have done better > if he had been the CIA chief operative officer in Bagdad... :-) We know tyrants do stupid things. Hitler used his army to take Stalingrad, when he could have used them to conquer the Urals and the oilfield. Mussolini went in a war without enough war supplies and weapons to actually combat anything. "A few hundred of deads to seat to the table of the peace". Stalin signed a Pact with Hitler (Molotov-Ribbentrop) to divide Poland and supposed this would appease Hitler and make him a friend. Stalin also marched his army in Finland in the 1939 in December and they "conquered enough land to bury their fallen soldiers". FDR let his fleet to sit unguarded in Pearl Harbour and be sunk by the Japanese. The Argentina Generals thinked the Falkland were an easy target and GB would not go in war for them. The USSR thinked Afghanistan would be a piece of cake. And the Arabs leaders thinked the new state of Israel would be destroyed fast and easy. And they continue to think they are able to destroy it. Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:09:57 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:09:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903181109s70db99a0k2a3f0aa93168c026@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:37 PM, BillK wrote: > This leads to prisoners who are wrongly convicted being treated far, > far worse than those who admit their crime. > > In the UK, if you give a guilty plea, your sentence is immediately cut > in half for being 'co-operative' and saving a lengthy trial. Yes, this I understand to be also the situation in China - even though lenience there is a more relative concept for the time being :-) But in general terms, this may have to do with christian obsession with confession. In the Inquisition procedure you could well be tortured to death in order to obtain a confession, but the court was really uneasy in deciding your case or putting you to death you unless and until you had confessed. -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 18:21:19 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:21:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> Il 18/03/2009 16.37, BillK ha scritto: > On 3/18/09, Stefano Vaj wrote: >> In fact, especially capital punishment is considered by traditional >> catholic doctrine as a *very* effective opportunity for rehabilitation >> and reform. >> >> In particular, it gives prison chaplains an inestimable opportunity to >> approach criminals under severe stress and an immediate threat to >> their life, suggesting them if anything to accept a Pascal wager ("if >> you convert and sincerely repent, what would you have to lose at this >> point even if no paradisiac reward were there waiting for you?"). >> > > > The prison system really hates prisoners who won't admit they are guilty. The government, please. The prison system is a part of the same substance of the government. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 18 18:29:15 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:29:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C13D7B.8080800@libero.it> Il 18/03/2009 15.45, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > But even asking question on such aspects, which are normal in ordinary > strategic thinking and risk assessment, are taken as blasphemy > whenever GW is the subject at hand. My thinking after watching "The Day After Tomorrow" was exactly: now that they have an Ice age so they are able to burn all of the fossil fuel they like. Mirco From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 18 18:30:43 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:30:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090318132722.0245daf0@satx.rr.com> At 07:21 PM 3/18/2009 +0100, Mirco wrote: >>The prison system really hates prisoners who won't admit they are guilty. > >The government, please. >The prison system is a part of the same substance of the government. The dominant culture, please. The government is a part of the same substance as the culture. (One probably can't take the next step: "The species biology, please." Too many important cultural variants, however bounded and constrained. But it's tempting, as Keith Henson keeps showing us.) Damien Broderick From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:45:43 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:45:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49C138E9.1030708@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <580930c20903150541g3c553574ndd552462227deb30@mail.gmail.com> <49C138E9.1030708@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903181145t58f202e9mbc6f242316c7e882@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:09 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > They had (and have) many reasons to go in war. Good reasons? I don't think > so. But we know this after the fact. Had he won the war, he would be > considered a successful head of state, great conqueror, etc. > > The conflict over the Shat-el-Arab is a conflict over OIL and over control > on the arab population inside Iran and Iraq and on the shiite population > inside and outside Iraq. > > He miscalculate (not so much) the state of disarray of Iran and of its armed > forces and overvalued the power of his armed forces. Let us say that in hindsight it is not always a good idea to attack countries in revolutionary supposed "disarray". See the European powers that attacked France at the end of the eighteenth century... > The US ambassador tell Saddam that, for the US, the border disputes with > Kuwait were not US matter. He understood that he could invade the Kuwait and > annext it without anyone doing nothing apart talking. Exactly. Of course, a politician should know that the the truth of what he is being told cannot always being relied upon... :-) > This is a standard arab / muslim procedure. To take hostages to force people > to do things they don't like. Obviusly is a stupid thing to do with the > wrong people. Indeed. But even worse is *releasing* the hostages in exchange for nothing when the damage is done. > Reasonable for who? Saddam was *always* been willing to accept comrpomises. Only, compromises that were not offered any more, that he had no more enough bargaining power to impose, and that he had refused before in the delusional opinion of being in a position to obtain more... :-) Sure, this is armchair strategism, and in hindsight. But yet, some people appear to have been mostly unlucky, some others appear to have added much of their own. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:49:11 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:49:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <49C13D7B.8080800@libero.it> References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <49C13D7B.8080800@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903181149s6d82facfube8833ea90e73d97@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:29 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > My thinking after watching "The Day After Tomorrow" was exactly: now that > they have an Ice age so they are able to burn all of the fossil fuel they > like. In fact, the "politically correct" angle of the movie is that a new ice age is in the plot brought upon us... exactly by global warming. :-) See also under the label "GW-induced extreme weather conditions", where extreme cold waves may qualify in full. -- Stefano Vaj From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:07:16 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:07:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Wars was defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49C1142E.7020702@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <1237003093_22975@s5.cableone.net> <49C1142E.7020702@libero.it> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:33 AM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > So, when he tell you about "wiping off" Israel from the map, it is better to > listen him. He is not a madman, only a muslim that believe in Islam. > He would wipe off Israel from the map (and all its inhabitants) Mirco, You've been misinformed. He quoted the Ayatollah Khomeini who said that the Israeli entity would in the due course of time dissappear from the pages of history, ie, "this too shall pass." The reasonableness of the original statement stands in stark contrast to the severity of the intentionally deceitful and inflammatory mistranslation: "wipe off the map" and "kill all the Israelis", which is a neocon/Israeli lobby propaganda combo of (1)Iran bashing, and (2)projected jewish paranoia transmuted into accepted "fact" (which despite being accepted is anything but fact). > ...without much remorse,... This is just defamation and scapegoating. The exact response sought by the pro-Israel, pro-war propagandists. All you need do is recognize it for what it is, dismiss it, and conduct your own analysis. A good place to start would be with "The hidden history of Zionism" by Ralph Schoenmann available full text at: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ Best, Jeff Davis From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:29:17 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:29:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49BFD865.7070208@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <49BFD865.7070208@libero.it> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:05 AM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > http://www.aapor.org/aaporfindsgilbertburnhaminviolationofethicscode > AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code > >> Press Release ? February 4, 2009 >> >> AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code >>...AAPOR's investigation of Burnham began in March 2008, after receiving >> a complaint from a member. Who was the member? What was the basis of his/her complaint? Remember what was done to Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson when he dared to blow the whistle on the Bush cabal's ongoing plan to lie the US into a war with Iraq? This looks to me like the same deal, with Burnham refusing to cooperate in the effort to ruin him. Note that nowhere is the validity of the methodology, the data, or the results of the study called into question. So who was the complaining member? Another member of the pro-Israeli smear bund? The accused has the right to confront the witnesses against him. Jeff Davis From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 23:06:30 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:06:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Romantic Love Under a Microscope" Message-ID: <2d6187670903181606m551691cdu6c119c6e3c410b42@mail.gmail.com> ABC TV News Special, "Romantic Love Under a Microscope." Prominent anthropologist Helen Fisher is featured, as she shows how people choose mates, and expounds on her new theory of the four major personality types, Explorer, Director, Builder and Negotiator. Her new book: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Him-Her-Understanding-Personality/dp/0805082921/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237417127&sr=8-1 The ABC TV Program... http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7094706 Despite all the insight we have into evolutionary psychology, social currency, biochemistry, the brain, etc., we still have a long way to go to fully understand human courtship behavior. John Grigg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 23:39:33 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:39:33 -0600 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: , On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:23 AM, spike wrote: > It wasn't that he kept their destruction secret, rather he gave indications > to the contrary. Could be, but there was lots of low quality info around at the time. I for one thought the sneaky crafty old bastard would have hidden whatever he thought he could get away with, but in hindsight, I suspect I was a victim of the full court fress to demonize Saddam and make everyone believe that he had those WMDs. For sure I didn't have a thirty billion dollar intelligence budget or access to top secret info on the boogieman of Baghdad. > He interfered with the UN inspectors. ?Why? We already know that the UN inspection teams were being used by US/Western intelligence to gather info on Iraqi security matters. If Saddam knew, then he would not have cooperated -- justifiably and legally -- with that aspect of the inspection/disarmament protocol. > ?We were > getting mixed signals on whether Saddam was interfering. ?Scott Ritter said > he wasn't, or not substantially. Scott reported on the US Intel intrusion into the inspections process. He wrote this little book -- actually, someone interviewed him extensively and compiled the little volume from the transcripts -- about his experience as a UN weapon's inspector. In it he mentioned that a Clinton political appointee to the inspections process PREVENTED the completion of certain inspections in order to be able to avoid reporting that the inspection process was complete and that Saddam had complied fully. Ritter's explanation was that such a certification would have been a necessary condition for lifting the sanctions, and that removal of Saddam was US policy and consequently so was maintaining the sanctions, until Saddam was gone. The inspections protocol was for WMD elimination, not regime change or espionage in preparation for regime change. Regime change, threats, and unauthorized war are all violations of the UN charter, which having been signed onto by the US, is US law as well. But the law, ..., the Constitution,... quaint artifacts from a bygone age, suitable perhaps for a museum exhibit somewhere. ;-[ > ?Hans Blix said he was. ?My recollection of > the treaty signed in 1991 had no authority in there for Saddam to eject UN > weapons inspectors. You might go back and check into that. (Or you might not. Rehashing this is a terrible waste of time, yes?) Not the part about "no authority for Saddam to eject..." (although that might be pertinent as well), but the part about the "ejecting" vs the UN "withdrawing" its personnel. It's been a while, so I don't recall exactly, but I seem to remember Clinton bombing Saddam in '98, and Saddam saying he couldn't guarantee the UN inspectors' safety, and the UN pulling them out in response, and the West spinning that as Saddam "ejecting" the inspectors. > > As I recall this UN resolution 1441 was the last chance for peace: The "last chance" phrasing was all Bush speak. UN 1441 did not authorize military action. Bush went to the UN to satisfy Blair's need for legal cover. Britain is a signatory to the ICC, and Blair anticipated legal problems absent UN approval. Nevertheless, he stood by Bush and the US despite the lack of UN approval for military action. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_1441 > > Saddam didn't comply with UN 1441. UN 1441 required a full an complete accounting of the WMD, and Saddam did comply and claimed that the accounting, was as required: full and complete. And again, from my recollection, fuzzy though it may be, and hindsight, clear as crystal: Bush was bent on war -- Downing street memo -- 1441 was a formality, Saddam's response preordained to be rejected . > He didn't want to look weak in a > dangerous neighborhood. ?In retrospect, we now understand that sentiment a > lot better than we did then. "We"? "Understand?" "I" understand (vanilla version: no quotes necessary) that the Bush cabal did to the US and selected countries around the world what Josef Fritzl did to his daughter. > ... ?Even former ambassador Joe Wilson ... wasn't > sure enough of anything to actually write a report.... Up to this point you were cogent, though clearly under the influence of Kool-aid. But this... oy! . Joe Wilson was absolutely certain. No written report was requested or required. A one word oral report quite adequate: "Hogwash!" ****************************************** I will leave you to have the last word. I'm through with the Iraq retrospective. Rehashing old screw-ups seems such a waste iof time when there are so many big, shiny new screw-ups to obsess over. Best, Jeff Davis I know it is a weakness of human nature to become emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats, but people who want to be transhumanists need to be able to get past that almost as a prerequisite. In fact, a good portion of the transhumanist ideals are all about shedding this behavior. j. andrew rogers From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Mar 19 00:24:46 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:24:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <580930c20903181145t58f202e9mbc6f242316c7e882@mail.gmail.com> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> <580930c20903150541g3c553574ndd552462227deb30@mail.gmail.com> <49C138E9.1030708@libero.it> <580930c20903181145t58f202e9mbc6f242316c7e882@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C190CE.8070206@libero.it> Il 18/03/2009 19.45, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:09 PM, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: >> This is a standard arab / muslim procedure. To take hostages to force people >> to do things they don't like. Obviusly is a stupid thing to do with the >> wrong people. > Indeed. But even worse is *releasing* the hostages in exchange for > nothing when the damage is done. Well, keeping them would not do anything good for him. As someone stated at the time, one hostage or two are human cases and it is possible to negotiate, two hundreds are statistics and are too much to negotiate anythings. With the hostages in Saddam hands, the western governments would be forced to continue the war until any and all of the were freed. > Sure, this is armchair strategism, and in hindsight. But yet, some > people appear to have been mostly unlucky, some others appear to have > added much of their own. Saddam, like many others, was a man that rode a tiger. Usually, the first time they fall it is also the last time they fall. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Mar 19 01:29:47 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:29:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <49BFD865.7070208@libero.it> Message-ID: <49C1A00B.8050301@libero.it> Il 18/03/2009 22.29, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:05 AM, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: > >> http://www.aapor.org/aaporfindsgilbertburnhaminviolationofethicscode >> AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code >> >>> Press Release ? February 4, 2009 >>> >>> AAPOR Finds Gilbert Burnham in Violation of Ethics Code > > > >>> ...AAPOR's investigation of Burnham began in March 2008, after receiving >>> a complaint from a member. > > Who was the member? What was the basis of his/her complaint? Why so interested? Do you plan to give his name to some "activists", so they show in front of his home to "protest"? The basis are simple: anything scientific must be repeatable from others. Without the data, the detail on how they were gathered and so on, it is impossible to repeat the experiment. No data, no trust. No data, you article is bullshit. > Remember what was done to Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson when he dared to > blow the whistle on the Bush cabal's ongoing plan to lie the US into a > war with Iraq? This looks to me like the same deal, with Burnham > refusing to cooperate in the effort to ruin him. Yea!!! This is the same old mantra. I remember you that X-files is so '90. > Note that nowhere is the validity of the methodology, the data, or the > results of the study called into question. Because they were not disclosed. But without disclosure, the article is a fantasy work, not a scientific one. > So who was the complaining member? Again, do you plan to raze his house? > Another member of the pro-Israeli smear bund? I smell a racist in disguise. > The accused has the right to confront the witnesses > against him. In science there is no "Innocent until proven guilty", there is the reverse "fraud until proven right". If the accused refuse to disclose how he did his research and obtained his results, so it is possible to replicate them, it is guilty for default and a fraud until proved different. Mirco From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 19 01:51:01 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:51:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: <49C1A00B.8050301@libero.it> References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <1236562114.6793.2444.camel@hayek> <49BFD865.7070208@libero.it> <49C1A00B.8050301@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090318204929.05fd9298@satx.rr.com> At 02:29 AM 3/19/2009 +0100, Mirco wrote: >I smell a racist in disguise. I'm censoring my outburst here: Shut the hell up with that kind of remark, Mirco. You haven't been here long enough to have a clue. Damien Broderick From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Mar 19 01:54:09 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:54:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? In-Reply-To: References: <412706.78987.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903090003ye308676ka313220367cf6cfd@mail.gmail.com> <49BBEAD0.7010808@libero.it> Message-ID: <49C1A5C1.3070706@libero.it> Il 14/03/2009 20.24, BillK ha scritto: > In future, markets throughout the world will be regulated with a much > heavier hand. In particular, directors of financial organisations > will no longer have the freedom to make calamitously stupid decisions. Will they be forced to do calamitous stupid decision? I bet it. Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 10:36:22 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:36:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] israelis defeat physics In-Reply-To: References: <3C941CCC56724464AD3A06244B33938B@spike> <9BC2E563A1384C00AE39B78EF57DFC8C@spike> <6ACA3F301DAA40D9865A8A4381972CF0@spike> Message-ID: <580930c20903190336s58f5da8arbd160c35b59ce360@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > We already know that the UN inspection teams were being used by > US/Western intelligence to gather info on Iraqi security matters. ?If > Saddam knew, then he would not have cooperated -- justifiably and > legally -- with that aspect of the inspection/disarmament protocol. In fact, he would have been better off by telling them to go to f...orgive his unwillingness to cooperate, and deal as best as he could with the consequences. Actually, he kept resisting the inspections and other demands... just to surrender regularly a little later when the "PR" damage was already done, and the demands have grown in the meantime, so that the US found themselves in the ideal situation of profiting both from a non-cooperative image of Iraq, *and* all the strategic advantages and intelligence they could hope for (in view of the decision on whether to attack and of how better doing that). This may also be taken as a kind of metaphor of what the transhumanism movement should never do when faced with its opponents. :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 10:41:10 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:41:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Your interview is publicly available (and here are links to it) In-Reply-To: <8d534b370903182050s300c780h46b6c565d7cfa836@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d534b370903182050s300c780h46b6c565d7cfa836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903190341s9b01febg973207d9a4cabadf@mail.gmail.com> Shameless self-promotion, on the subject "Transhumanism and I". :-) I also take the opportunity to thank publicly Stephen for his interest, intelligent questions and... patience with my over-the-phone spoken English. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Cobb Date: Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:50 AM Subject: Your interview is publicly available (and here are links to it) To: Stefano Vaj Stefano, Thanks again for the excellent interview. It contained so much wonderful stuff I made two shows out of it. The two episodes are both up and publicly available. Here are the links that will aways point specifically to your two episodes: http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=437034 http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=439573 Feel free to place these links on your website, or email them to friends and colleges. Thanks again for the great interview. Take care. Steve Stephen Euin Cobb me at SteveCobb.com Columnist and Contributing Editor for Jim Baen's Universe Magazine http://baens-universe.com/articles/Five_Famous_Authors_do_Public_Appearances_in_Secon Host of the podcast "The Future And You" Winner of the 2006 Parsec Award for "Best SF&F News" http://www.TheFutureAndYou.libsyn.com Advisory board member of the Lifeboat Foundation http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.stephen.euin.cobb Second Life: Boc Cryotank -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 10:54:07 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:54:07 +1100 Subject: [ExI] hitchins fans: hitchins on UN free speech proposal In-Reply-To: <49C10723.8020403@libero.it> References: <9CB1A34A7172425CA6D13D900F93E886@spike> <49B2D207.4010100@libero.it> <49BCE595.5060300@libero.it> <49C10723.8020403@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/19 painlord2k at libero.it : > It don't matter. > They kill their daughter for alleged sexual misconducts, and they are proud > of this. But you are not allowed to poit out that the girl were a bit too > "Western". > > It is like the Nazi dening the Death Camp and the mistreatemnts of interned > people during the war. They were proud of what they did, but they didn' want > others to know what they were doing. Not before they did it. > > You are facing a culture where goals justify all. > A culture where contraddictuons are not a problem until they are forced in > the public sphere. A culture where the stronger have no limits to what he > can do to the weaker. A culture interested in "allowed" and "prohibited" not > "right" and ?"wrong". > Whatever Mohammad permitted is "permitted", whatever he prohibited is > "prohibited". If Mohammad tortured a Jews to obtain a hidden threasure of > the Jew's tribe, this permit all muslim to torture Jews (and other infidels) > to obtain wealth that is not surrended to them immediately. > > They consider it right? Yes > They are offended if it is stated by kafir? Yes > They want it to be know by kafir? No Can you give any actual examples of a prominent Muslim denying some brutal aspect of his religion for propaganda purposes, when he actually believes in the thing he is denying? Unfortunately, religious fanatics differ from self-seeking politicians in that they believe not only that what they are doing is right, but that it ought to be obvious to the whole world that it is right. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:05:04 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:05:04 +1100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/19 painlord2k at libero.it : >> The prison system really hates prisoners who won't admit they are guilty. > > The government, please. > The prison system is a part of the same substance of the government. A libertarian capitalist society would be inclined to have the same or even more draconian laws for property crime as presently exist. For example, why should you pay to lock criminals up for years when it's easier and - more importantly - cheaper to kill them? Although to give the libertarians credit where it is due, they do tend to be opposed to laws against victimless crimes, such as anti-drug laws. -- Stathis Papaioannou From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 19 14:14:12 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:14:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike><580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com><08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike><580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com><1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer><580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com><49C13D7B.8080800@libero.it> <580930c20903181149s6d82facfube8833ea90e73d97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Stefano Vaj" > In fact, the "politically correct" angle of the > movie [The Day After Tomorrow] is that a new > ice age is in the plot brought upon us... exactly by global warming. Not only that but the new ice age will quite literally chase you down a hallway. I hate it when that happens. John K Clark From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:41:11 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:41:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <49C13D7B.8080800@libero.it> <580930c20903181149s6d82facfube8833ea90e73d97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903190741k22b6487dyfe35629e028fa7c4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 3:14 PM, John K Clark wrote: > Not only that but the new ice age will quite literally chase you down a > hallway. I hate it when that happens. > Indeed. Not to mention the interesting symbolism offered by the fact that to protect themselves from the weather they burn the books. :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:52:29 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:52:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <513971.98622.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <580930c20903180804u3021b18dlf5fd0d1eb2f6683a@mail.gmail.com> <49C13B9F.7040807@libero.it> Message-ID: > > Whereas I have always had some respect for libertarian values and personal > freedom, responsibility and empowerment, the statements of the well-known hysteric and H+/extropy critic Dale C. had always buzzed around in my mind - namely *...that radical rightwing elements were exerting their ideology into H+ and disparaging elements of a more "liberal" or left-leaning persuasion. * (and vice versa, probably) The moment has come to conclude that the sickening discourse we have been witnessing in international politics between "right" and "left" has in fact parachuted into H+ and is endanging the ideals I hold dear. Irreconcilable polarization is here and it will not go away. I do not like this at all but there is nothing I can do about it. It is a dangerous, chronic disease of the world we are in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 19:22:45 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:22:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 6:25 AM, John K Clark wrote: >> 2) If in the future if it does cause problems we will have to deal with it >> then because right now with our technology there is absolutely nothing we >> can do about it. All the "solutions" I've seen are just gestures, multi >> trillion gestures that would drive the world into poverty and make the money >> lost in the sub prime mortgage crisis look like chump change. And still it >> would just be a gesture. > > While as already mentioned I am a "possibilist" on GW, this is indeed > a serious concern. > > For instance, doom-mongers usually warn us of the possible - and > theoretically plausible - existence of a "tipping point", beyond which > runaway positive-feedback loops would take over. > Now, it seems bizarre that any serious discussion could not take into > account that such a tipping point might already be behind us. This isn't a majority opinion yet, but it certainly is being discussed as possible, perhaps even probable among the concerned in the science community. > Were it the case, I imagine that a case could be presented that we > might be better off by burning fossil fuels like mad, as if there were > literally no tomorrow, if this marginally increased (the available > resources relevant to) our chances to get access in the near future to > an large enough energy source (say, space-based solar energy, nuclear > fusion, deep geothermy) to allow us to embark in serious remedial > action. > > But even asking question on such aspects, which are normal in ordinary > strategic thinking and risk assessment, are taken as blasphemy > whenever GW is the subject at hand. In my opinion concern over global warming doesn't hurt because the solution to it (replacement for low cost fossil fuels) is the same we have to do in any case. Running out of low cost energy is a more certain disaster, with the possibility of killing 6 out of 7 people by the end of the century. Space based solar provisionally looks like the best idea. Going to much higher exhaust velocity than you can get with chemical fuels for the second stage seems to be one way to get the cost to GEO below $100/kg. That's low enough for penny a kWh electricity and synthetic liquid fuels for a dollar a gallon, but it only works for a million tonne per year traffic model. Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 20:45:11 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:45:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike> <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > Space based solar provisionally looks like the best idea. Going to > much higher exhaust velocity than you can get with chemical fuels for > the second stage seems to be one way to get the cost to GEO below > $100/kg. That's low enough for penny a kWh electricity and synthetic > liquid fuels for a dollar a gallon, but it only works for a million > tonne per year traffic model. > What about a Project Orion vehicle? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 20:57:42 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:57:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Romantic Love Under a Microscope" In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903181606m551691cdu6c119c6e3c410b42@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903181606m551691cdu6c119c6e3c410b42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903191357k38b4ef7akcb90a5afcadc6a73@mail.gmail.com> The reviews for Fisher's latest book were so-so, many felt she had not buttressed her arguments with solid science & generally oversimplified things regarding personality theory. It appears she went Oprah/pop-culture on us! lol But Fisher will always be remembered for the excellent "Anatomy of Love." John From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 21:49:09 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:49:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/19 Stefano Vaj : > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> >> Space based solar provisionally looks like the best idea. ?Going to >> much higher exhaust velocity than you can get with chemical fuels for >> the second stage seems to be one way to get the cost to GEO below >> $100/kg. ?That's low enough for penny a kWh electricity and synthetic >> liquid fuels for a dollar a gallon, but it only works for a million >> tonne per year traffic model. > > What about a Project Orion vehicle? Do you want this to happen? GW lasers are bad enough. Hitching power satellites to the use of nuclear bombs strikes me as a way to fail. Personally I would rather see 10,000 nuclear reactors for power than using bombs to launch power sat parts. I simply don't believe you can launch projectiles with 5 Mt bombs and not get a huge buildup of radioactives in the atmosphere. Also, I think we need a lot of people in space to assemble power sats and there is no way people are going to go into space this way. Besides, at $100/kg reducing the transport cost to zero will only cut the cost of power by half. The difference between half penny and penny a kWh generating cost hardly shows up in electric bills, and it makes little difference even in the cost of synthetic gasoline because at that price a lot of the cost is in the capital for the synthetic fuel plants. Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 22:05:56 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:05:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > I simply don't believe you can > launch projectiles with 5 Mt bombs and not get a huge buildup of > radioactives in the atmosphere. Also, I think we need a lot of people > in space to assemble power sats and there is no way people are going > to go into space this way. > Why, theoretical studies seem to suggest rather different scenarios, especially with relatively "clean", especially designed, H bombs, but there is no doubt that some degree of radioactive pollution would be the price to pay for a way much lower price-to-GEO for kg of solar power stuff, in view of supposedly extinction-threatening warming effects of ongoing carbon emissions., which would be even, albeit in fact very marginally. inflated by a large deployment of chemical rockets. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 22:51:24 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:51:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/19 Stefano Vaj : > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> >> I simply don't believe you can >> launch projectiles with 5 Mt bombs and not get a huge buildup of >> radioactives in the atmosphere. ?Also, I think we need a lot of people >> in space to assemble power sats and there is no way people are going >> to go into space this way. > > Why, theoretical studies seem to suggest rather different scenarios, > especially with relatively "clean", especially designed, H bombs, How do you propose to prevent fission neutrons from making vaporized rock radioactive? > but there > is no doubt that some degree of radioactive pollution would be the price to > pay for a way much lower price-to-GEO Please explain the orbital mechanics of going from a nuclear powered cannon launch to GEO. Earth escape I can see, but how do you propose to match with GEO? >for kg of solar power stuff, in view > of supposedly extinction-threatening warming effects of ongoing carbon > emissions., which would be even, albeit in fact very marginally. inflated by > a large deployment of chemical rockets. How do hydrogen burning rockets contribute to carbon emissions? Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:36:42 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:36:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > How do you propose to prevent fission neutrons from making vaporized > rock radioactive? I don't, actually. :-) I just wonder whether the relevant increase in radioactivity could ever be a match for the "billion of deaths" preconised by GW and oil-peak prophecies... > Please explain the orbital mechanics of going from a nuclear powered > cannon launch to GEO. Earth escape I can see, but how do you propose > to match with GEO? Orion Project does not have anything to do with a "cannon". For all practical aspects, it is a pulse rocket like the V1, if I am not mistaken, albeit an unconventional and large-scale one. See, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion) > How do hydrogen burning rockets contribute to carbon emissions? > In fact, as I said, only *very* marginally, by burning the environmental carbon close to the launch area into CO2. More or less as a military nuclear bomb does. OTOH, isn't the "nuclear winter" effect supposed to cool the earth out of the airborne debris generated by each launch? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 00:16:56 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:16:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/19 Stefano Vaj : > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> >> How do you propose to prevent fission neutrons from making vaporized >> rock radioactive? > > I don't, actually. :-) > > I just wonder whether the relevant increase in radioactivity could ever be a > match for the "billion of deaths" preconised by GW and oil-peak > prophecies... If we don't do something peak energy may kill that many. Global warming probably happens well after. >> Please explain the orbital mechanics of going from a nuclear powered >> cannon launch to GEO. ?Earth escape I can see, but how do you propose >> to match with GEO? > > Orion Project does not have anything to do with a "cannon". For all > practical aspects, it is a pulse rocket like the V1, if I am not mistaken, > albeit an unconventional and large-scale one. See, e.g., > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion) Sorry, was mixing this with a proposal to use bombs for nuclear cannon launches on another mailing list. But I did take a look at the wiki article. If half of the largest one is payload, then one launch puts up 4 million kg. The throughput of the suborbital rocket and laser system puts up about this much in 4 years. So the two transport systems are not that far apart. A 4 GW laser is one ton of TNT per second. snip Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 11:33:08 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:33:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > If we don't do something peak energy may kill that many. Global > warming probably happens well after. In that case, most of the billions would probably accept a very marginal increase in their chances to get cancer, or whatever other adverse effect temporary Project Orion vehicles launches might generate... But I did take a look at the wiki article. If half of the largest one > is payload, then one launch puts up 4 million kg. The throughput of > the suborbital rocket and laser system puts up about this much in 4 > years. So the two transport systems are not that far apart. A 4 GW > laser is one ton of TNT per second. > Possibly. Let's say however that Project Orion vehicles were already feasible, in principle, with the technology of the sixties, while I do not exactly know in which dept store I can get 4GW lasers, or if my power company is in a position to provide the juice to operate them to residential users... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 20 13:05:23 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:05:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> References: <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C39493.1090503@libero.it> Il 20/03/2009 0.36, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Keith Henson > > wrote: > > How do you propose to prevent fission neutrons from making vaporized > rock radioactive? > > > I don't, actually. :-) > > I just wonder whether the relevant increase in radioactivity could > ever be a match for the "billion of deaths" preconised by GW and > oil-peak prophecies... > > Please explain the orbital mechanics of going from a nuclear powered > cannon launch to GEO. Earth escape I can see, but how do you > propose to match with GEO? > > > Orion Project does not have anything to do with a "cannon". For all > practical aspects, it is a pulse rocket like the V1, if I am not > mistaken, albeit an unconventional and large-scale one. See, e.g., > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion) > > > How do hydrogen burning rockets contribute to carbon emissions? > > > In fact, as I said, only *very* marginally, by burning the > environmental carbon close to the launch area into CO2. More or less > as a military nuclear bomb does. > > OTOH, isn't the "nuclear winter" effect supposed to cool the earth > out of the airborne debris generated by each launch? "Nuclear winter" is a concept invented in the '970 from the Soviet propaganda groups to discourage people of West Europe to install Pershing and Cruise Missiles. In this, the concept resemble too much to the GW histerya. It is taken without critical thinking (I was fooled at the time, too). Then came Mt. Saint Helen Eruption: > St. Helens released an amount of energy equivalent to 27,000 > Hiroshima-sized nuclear weapons and ejected more than 1 cubic mile (4 > km?) of material. A quarter of that volume was fresh lava in the form > of ash, pumice, and volcanic bombs while the rest was fragmented, > older rock. The removal of the north side of the mountain (13% of the > cone's volume) reduced St. Helens' height by about 1,313 feet (400 m) > and left a crater 1 to 2 miles (2 to 3 km) wide and 2,100 feet (640 > m) deep with its north end open in a huge breach. More than 4 billion > board feet (14.6 km?) of timber was damaged or destroyed, mainly by > the lateral blast. Did it caused a cooling? A notable one? The civilization wes in danger to be destroyed? Mirco From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:22:52 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:22:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <49C39493.1090503@libero.it> References: <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <49C39493.1090503@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903200622r7b53fa5dke6662861de21213a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 2:05 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > "Nuclear winter" is a concept invented in the '970 from the Soviet > propaganda groups to discourage people of West Europe to install > Pershing and Cruise Missiles. Why, even better... In fact, I am not enthusiastic myself about increasing average environmental radioactivity, but I think that concepts such as "massive space-based solar power satellite launched through Project Orion vehicles" are at least a good way to debunk those for whom GW is simply a propaganda tool in view of deep-ecologist or neo-luddite goals. In fact, someone who has a bona-fide belief in an impending doom, and whose primary concern is to avoid it, would not refrain from considering extreme measure. If, on the other hand the threat of a possible GW doom is in his or her mind fundamentally just a way to achieve disindustrialisation, technology relinquishment, reduction of energy output, a neoprimitive turning-point in human lifestyle, etc., of course such ideas are equally unacceptable as going on burning fossil fuels, and/or would be considered even more dangerous. This is more or less the same as for geo-engineering projects such as, e.g., that of creating and extending deliberately the ozone hole we fought a few years ago. Of course, much of that might be crazy in comparison to actual (if any) risks allegedly arising from GW for the survival of the human species, but if one assert that they exist and that they are measurable, he or she should also be ready in comparing them with adverse effects of solutions much more radical than an obviously limited and gradual reduction of CO2 emissions - which might well not solve the problem at all. -- Stefano Vaj From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 14:45:11 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 07:45:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/20 Stefano Vaj : > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> >> If we don't do something peak energy may kill that many. ?Global >> warming probably happens well after. > > In that case, most of the billions would probably accept a very marginal > increase in their chances to get cancer, or whatever other adverse effect > temporary Project Orion vehicles launches might generate... > >> But I did take a look at the wiki article. ?If half of the largest one >> is payload, then one launch puts up 4 million kg. ?The throughput of >> the suborbital rocket and laser system puts up about this much in 4 >> years. ?So the two transport systems are not that far apart. ?A 4 GW >> laser is one ton of TNT per second. > > Possibly. Let's say however that Project Orion vehicles were already > feasible, in principle, with the technology of the sixties, They may not be the case today. There are neither the designers nor the production facilities to make these highly specialized bombs now. >while I do not > exactly know in which dept store I can get 4GW lasers, or if my power > company is in a position to provide the juice to operate them to residential > users... :-) I would not be all that surprised if some department store does sell welding lasers. You just need to buy a lot of them. Jordin Kare, who knows far more than I do, says $10/watt is a good number. As to power, they would need about 8GW input. Three Gorges Dam puts out 22 GW. If the US built them (unlikely, I know) the best place to put them would be in south Texas with the first stage flying from the mouth of the Amazon. I suppose I should mention Orion in power sat transportation talks. It would take launching a mid sized Orion--using over 1000 bombs--every day to transport the materials needed for power sat production. Big lasers look safe and sane in that context. Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 16:32:44 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:32:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903200932j7cbc754ted819c6aea48b2f3@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > 2009/3/20 Stefano Vaj : > It would take launching a mid sized Orion--using over 1000 > bombs--every day to transport the materials needed for power sat > production. Just for curiosity's sake, for how many days? And, in any event, why a mid-sized vehicle, if it is true that large ones would be more efficient and/or less polluting? -- Stefano Vaj From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 20 16:43:52 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:43:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Space based solar (was: global warming again.) References: <971EB8C00B624E109C3F5355A9A2B454@spike><580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com><08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike><580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com><1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer><580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FEE7EBE44404C1FBB05B9661184EB44@MyComputer> "Keith Henson" > Space based solar provisionally looks like the best idea. But you think using lunar material for most of the mass that makes up those power satellites is a bad idea; it's never been entirely clear to me why you think all of the material should be launched from the very bottom of Earth's deep gravity well and not just use that option for the hard to make stuff like computer chips. Solar cells are easier to make than computer chips but you need to make vastly more of them. If we can make them on the Earth why can't we make them on the moon? It seems to me that if power satellites are ever going to be economical, and I'm not sure they ever will be, then you'll have to use lunar material for at least 95% of their mass. But I could be wrong. John K Clark From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 17:47:48 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:47:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space based solar (was: global warming again.) In-Reply-To: <5FEE7EBE44404C1FBB05B9661184EB44@MyComputer> References: <580930c20903161328gc3daf09ued4e9cdc56395774@mail.gmail.com> <08EAAA91DA254E3DAF77BF8F79FA0701@spike> <580930c20903161456i45d44068x16f3ddd7f4763c90@mail.gmail.com> <1B0B632A36FA4BA895720C5C222747B4@MyComputer> <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <5FEE7EBE44404C1FBB05B9661184EB44@MyComputer> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:43 AM, John K Clark wrote: > "Keith Henson" > >> Space based solar provisionally looks like the best idea. > > But you think using lunar material for most of the mass that makes up those > power satellites is a bad idea; it's never been entirely clear to me why you > think all of the material should be launched from the very bottom of Earth's > deep gravity well and not just use that option for the hard to make stuff > like computer chips. Solar cells are easier to make than computer chips but > you need to make vastly more of them. If we can make them on the Earth > why can't we make them on the moon? I was one of the *founders* of the L5 Society, which was based on using lunar materials. The problem now is that the need for building power sats is acute. There just isn't the time to build up lunar mining and industry to build power sats that way. I wish there was. Deep as the earth's gravity well is it's not expensive in theory to get out of it. A 100% efficient moving cable space elevator will take a kg to GEO for 15 cents of energy. Used to build power sats, that much energy can be paid back in a day or two. Rockets are about 3 percent efficient. They pay back the lift energy in about 40 days, and the fuel cost is about $5/kg. The problem is the rocket equation which says for chemical exhaust velocities you only get about 1 part in 60 of liftoff mass to GEO and the high cost of highly stressed rocket hardware. > It seems to me that if power satellites are ever going to be economical, > and I'm not sure they ever will be, then you'll have to use lunar material > for at least 95% of their mass. But I could be wrong. A lift cost to GEO of under $100/kg results in power for a penny a kWh and liquid fuels from that power for a dollar a gallon. Incidentally, solar cells may not be the best approach. At 60% efficient, thermal engines may be a better approach. Space resources may still play a big role. Invar may be material of choice to build power sats. If so, the pace of building them exhausts the nickel mines on earth in short order. Asteroid 1986 DA is a 2.3 km chunk of nickel iron. It is 140 m/sec from GEO. You still need really low cost to GEO since an extraction plant could easily mass 50,000 tons. Keith > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 20 18:39:59 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:39:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903180745r6555d5cft5fcc803e6005e462@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C3E2FF.2060301@libero.it> Il 20/03/2009 15.45, Keith Henson ha scritto: > They may not be the case today. There are neither the designers nor > the production facilities to make these highly specialized bombs now. What was done in the past can be redone in the future. We have more resources and capabilities and we know the goal better. >> while I do not >> exactly know in which dept store I can get 4GW lasers, or if my power >> company is in a position to provide the juice to operate them to residential >> users... :-) > I would not be all that surprised if some department store does sell > welding lasers. You just need to buy a lot of them. Jordin Kare, who > knows far more than I do, says $10/watt is a good number. As to > power, they would need about 8GW input. Three Gorges Dam puts out 22 > GW. If the US built them (unlikely, I know) the best place to put > them would be in south Texas with the first stage flying from the > mouth of the Amazon. Northrop Grumman's has a 105 kilowatt solid state laser. 100 kilowatts is considered the minimum for a battlefield laser http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/03/northrop-grumman-has-105-kilowatt-solid.html There is no need of a 4 GW laser cannon to put in orbit a SPS system. You only need a Few launch of large missiles in LEO with the stuff needed to build a Space Elevator. The materials needed for the cable are in the development phase. After the basic SE is in place, you reinforce it until is large enough to put significative payloads in GEO. Then you build a second and a third SE (to redundancy). Then you put in GEO whatever you like. A few MW class LASERs could be useful to put in orbit a continual stream of low weight payloads to feed the construction of the SE with bulk materials, to transfer energy to the climbers motor, to push the climber itself up and to deorbit the trash in orbit (shoot them with a powerful enough LASER and the ttrash will be vaporized or will be slowed enough to fall down in the atmosphere. > I suppose I should mention Orion in power sat transportation talks. > It would take launching a mid sized Orion--using over 1000 > bombs--every day to transport the materials needed for power sat > production. Big lasers look safe and sane in that context. http://nextbigfuture.com have a few articles about Orion and its viability. The only sane motive to not implement it is that people would go insane about inconsistent fears. Mirco From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 18:58:19 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:58:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <580930c20903200932j7cbc754ted819c6aea48b2f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200932j7cbc754ted819c6aea48b2f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >> 2009/3/20 Stefano Vaj : >> It would take launching a mid sized Orion--using over 1000 >> bombs--every day to transport the materials needed for power sat >> production. > > Just for curiosity's sake, for how many days? And, in any event, why a > mid-sized vehicle, if it is true that large ones would be more > efficient and/or less polluting? A serious power sat production program uses upwards of 100 tons per hour for a number of decades. Call it a million tons per year. One launch every 4 years is not often enough, one per day is too often. If someone were really going to look at this instead of rejecting it out of hand, a launch a month might be in the right range. That's still close to 13,000 bombs per year. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:11:06 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:11:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] global warming again. In-Reply-To: <49C3E2FF.2060301@libero.it> References: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> <49C3E2FF.2060301@libero.it> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:39 AM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: snip > There is no need of a 4 GW laser cannon to put in orbit a SPS system. > You only need a Few launch of large missiles in LEO with the stuff needed to > build a Space Elevator. You are seriously misinformed. You have to be at GEO to build an elevator. Also we don't have the material for it and my never get it. > The materials needed for the cable are in the development phase. > After the basic SE is in place, you reinforce it until is large enough to > put significative payloads in GEO. Then you build a second and a third SE > (to redundancy). Then you put in GEO whatever you like. > > A few MW class LASERs could be useful to put in orbit a continual stream of > low weight payloads to feed the construction of the SE with bulk materials, > to transfer energy to the climbers motor, to push the climber itself up and It takes 15kWh/kg. 100 t, 100,000kg x 15kWh/h is 1.5 GW. So a moving cable space elevator would need a 1.5 GW motor to power it. The electrical in to potential energy gained is about 10% for climbers so you would need a laser with a 15 GW input for climbers. Climbers make no sense because you can lift as much with half as much ablation propulsion lasers. > to deorbit the trash in orbit (shoot them with a powerful enough LASER and > the ttrash will be vaporized or will be slowed enough to fall down in the > atmosphere. This is the one use that megawatt scale lasers have. And that's marginal. You really need them in the tens of MW. > >> I suppose I should mention Orion in power sat transportation talks. >> It would take launching a mid sized Orion--using over 1000 >> bombs--every day to transport the materials needed for power sat >> production. ?Big lasers look safe and sane in that context. > > http://nextbigfuture.com have a few articles about Orion and its viability. > The only sane motive to not implement it is that people would go insane > about inconsistent fears. I have a relative who was downwind of one of the underground shots that failed to stay contained. Chances are fair they will die from the effects. Keith From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 21 04:10:58 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] punishment Message-ID: <900176.62549.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Tom Nowell wrote: > The wiki article > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment > mentions six reasons - Rehabilitation, Restoration, > Retribution and Deterrence along with two others - > Incapacitation (removing the offenders ability to offend > again - maybe by keeping prisoners locked away from society > until they are "reformed", maybe by castrating rapists, > maybe by removing licenses to practise from people who are > negligent) and Education. Thanks for that contribution. However the wikipedia article carries a warning that it lacks references and sources to support the authors' claims. A reference to the Stanford Encyclopdia of Philosophy does however appear at the end, perhaps added later. I think the Stanford Encyclopia qualifies as a reliable source on this subject. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/ Per the Stanford Encylopedia, we could (perhaps at the risk of over-simplifying) first classify justifications for punishment into two basic categories: forward-looking and backward-looking, i.e., consequationalist and deontological. "The practice of punishment must be justified by reference either to forward-looking or to backward-looking considerations. If the former prevail, then the theory is consequentialist and probably some version of utilitarianism, according to which the point of the practice of punishment is to increase overall net social welfare by reducing (ideally, preventing) crime. If the latter prevail, the theory is deontological; on this approach, punishment is seen either as a good in itself or as a practice required by justice, thus making a direct claim on our allegiance. A deontological justification of punishment is likely to be a retributive justification. Or, as a third alternative, the justification of the practice may be found in some hybrid combination of these two independent alternatives. Recent attempts to avoid this duality in favor of a completely different approach have yet to meet with much success (Goldman 1982, Hoekema 1986, Hampton 1984, Ten 1987)." I find it interesting that while almost every reasonable person will agree that we ought to incarcerate or execute wrong-doers, there seems to exist no clear consensus on exactly why. -gts From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Sat Mar 21 04:24:45 2009 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? Message-ID: <309229.65909.qm@web110415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> That was unexpected but thanks for the diverse views at looking at it from a different point of view. Here are the words I heard:) Amazing! How sweet the sound that saved me I once was lost but now I am found but now I see Grace to feel Grace relieved precious appear hour believed chains are gone set free savior ransom me flood under love and grace good to me secure shell and ocean life unders earth sun prepare to shine but will be forever young.... u are forever young... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg I had no idea it could become such a political point of view;) Anna:) --- On Sun, 3/8/09, Anna Taylor wrote: > From: Anna Taylor > Subject: [ExI] What is Grace? > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Received: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 11:27 PM > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXV6HJxUebg > > In imho > > Anna:) > > > ? ? ? > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.? > Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or > register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From dagonweb at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 08:26:47 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 09:26:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <900176.62549.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <900176.62549.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I find it interesting that while almost every reasonable person will agree > that we ought to incarcerate or execute wrong-doers, there seems to exist no > clear consensus on exactly why. (caveat: any racist remarks in this article are not intended ironic/sarcastic) *I may end up acting weak*. One day I may suffer personal pain and affront and I might be tempted, in a moment of weakness, to commit an act of vengeance. If someone killed a friend under especially cruel circumstances, and I were a witness, I'd have not a twinge of guilt to move towards him or her, drive my knuckles in that persons neck, and then grab, twist and drive half the upper vertebrae into her spinal cord. Easy enough, I have trained for this and like riding a bike, you don't forget these skills. But that would be weakness. I have grown to think vengeance doesn't work. It used to, when we were a diffuse glob of low-identity specimen, scattered widely. Vengeance was a mode of behavior that over probably a million years made predators realize you do not fuck with those bipeds. Kill a human, humans enact vengeance and murder your entire bloodline. It has been a very clever trick and feedback loop and has contributed immensely to the success of humans - humans have the capacity to hate, to resent, to plot vengeance, to carry grudges and to act upon them - in small angry mobs or (more recently) in armies so big their arrows blot out the sun. Humans are successful because they are *genocidal*. Humans have an instinct other animals do not have (or only in very small measure). This instinct requires a higher brain with imagination, a deep loathing of death and pain of "my own" (NOBODY of some other tribe hits my mongrel nephew, not even a godless GYPSY!!) and the motivation to spend years plotting vengeance. This clearly is a more powerful impetus than heroin - people attribute immense, almost surreal qualities to acts of Rambo/Schwarzenegger/Seagal -esque orgies of "getting even". A cancer is a number of cells that serve no purpose and are killing the host. I have this theory. In this crudely defined idea humans are animals that evolved in the last 50.000 years. The number of editing cycles in the last 10K years (i.,e. since we had agriculture has been small, and the number of editing in the human genome since the industrial age even smaller. Hence our genome is more or less based on tribal collectives, with no more than hundreds of humans at best, breeding cycles around the clock, an expansionist impulse driven by tribal rivalry and almost ritual exclusion (envy, suspicion, contempt) of the losers of a tribe. Humanity is NOT based on love, or charity. Au contraire, the human success story is almost exclusively based on persecution, banishment, starvation cycles, war, attrition, murder, torture, vengeance and despair. 1. humans are successful because of most of the time they feel acutely miserable and their mind screams, SCREAMS "do something, now". Not as with a cat, that can be deliriously happy lying around in the sun burping. 2. humans are successful because even the smallest challenge to its territory by OUTSIDERS must be met with campaigns of extermination. Read the old testament for inspiration. 3. these instincts evolved for and because of pleistocene conditions. The holocene had a limited effect on the way these instincts express. My theory is that humans ARE a genocidal species. It is a core value of the human genome. Likewise, humans ARE racist, again a core value. We spread like kudzu over any territory, only grudgingly and resentfully cooperate with other humans, but will cooperate with the most similar (even with gypsies) against a mutual enemy and will do whatever it takes to eradicate them. This is precisely the instinct at work in the current legal system. The idea used to be "break the rules of the tribal collective, you die". However that used to work in small tribes where everyone could have hear the dispute on the tribal square that established the rule, and why, but it doesn't work when you have to write down, codify and abstract laws and carry them to another province. Laws work only on localized values in a single parish. Laws quickly become stifling and counterproductive when applies to nationstates. Hence, punishment has become ever more ruthless. The instinct at work is to regard humans in two categories "real human beings" (those who share your genes) and "animals". This is pure racism - as soon as a human has power, and a minor twinge that that sloped skull human over there down the street has in fact come into being after a human mated with a dog, it isn't a real human and hence - competition. Modern society has suspended this instinct, largely by saturating human beings with food and abundance. But the instinct is still there. It does not take much more than a firm economic crisis to start up the incinerators and open up the mass graves. Criminals are a curious variant of humans, a note on the genetic diversity scale. Look at what happened to Frankenstein (clearly not human, we cannot have him mate with our virgins and produce a population of half-frankensteins) as the mob marched on him with pitchforks. Criminals are the variant of humanity that serves a purpose (those slightly sloped skull restless kids next door serve a GOOD purpose when there is a war, when we can send them off in a colorful uniform to kill the godless french) but in times of peace we have to keep an eye on them. There appears to be a clear causal link between people who migrate (gypsies, scum, suspicious types, pedophiles) and ADHD. Migratory herd-keeping people have far greater rates of ADHD than agricultural, placid, peaceful humans. However - more than half of prison populations have diagnosed ADHD. Which is a good thing (and I am being sarcastic here) because that keeps them from breeding with "our lush, fertile young virgins". I say - humans have an instinct to breed animals and (for lack of animals) each other. In addition to being genocidal humans are a eugenic race. I say - humans have a eugenic instinct. The tendency to either exterminate competing species (wolves, tigers, omphols... what's an omphol? well, its extinct) or enslave them and breed them to our liking is universal. The problem is, this instinct of evaluation whether or not a human is in fact an animal (shifty eyed, smells funny, odd hair, strange skin coloration, eats disgusting food) is always there. Furriners tend to be criminals - everyone knows that (ASSUMES that) and criminals are the beast inside, in the neighbour next door, waiting to wake up. Since we found that killing criminals, castrating them, or banishing them is no longer compatible with the immensely spoiled, luxurious, sedated society we have right now (Iran style hangings would be bad for our consumer confidence...) we resort to the same instinct for vengeance and punishment, and lock them up. In fact, the big cause for incarceration is the overwhelming instinct in humans to disallow those who are found enemies (animals, almost the same word) the chance to breed. Likewise, if a parent is a found to be criminal (or traitor, heathen, pervert, satanist, whatever) we ALSO shun his offspring. We tolerate the foreign not as equals, expect for after one or two generations of integration, but we are wiolling to put up with them as long as they behave very nice, very modest and only as long as we live in affluence. In other words, immigrations are tolerated as chattel or slaves (or dhimmi) as long as times are good - at the first sign of famine the mood sours, the social contract collapses and the gypsies or mexicans or chinese or maroccans are sent packing. OR locked in a internment camp. I started this lengthy diatribe by saying it is weak to act upon this. If we would be stronger (and smarter) we'd acknowledge the underlying instinct and cause. Thats why I assert the only smart solution, is the clever one - we need to get rid of the instinct to excude - If we don't we will keep killing. Its bred in the human genome, the instinct to judge those who are different, act with suspicion, persecute, exclude, "tolerate", punish, seek vengeance or even resort to genocide. And it's an irrational impulse mostly. It is an out of control instinct. This behavior has become carcenomic. It might actually end up killing billions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 08:48:14 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 01:48:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale Message-ID: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> How many of you saw the Battlestar Galactica series finale? I was extremely impressed by it, especially the final scene involving robots and AGI. I thought the ending was smart and fun. I could see transhumanists wanting the roles the A.I. Gaius and A.I. Caprica had at the end/beginning of things... I'd like to know what the rest of you thought about it. And to what extent you considered the series and ending, transhumanistic. John From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 09:28:03 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 02:28:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" Message-ID: <2d6187670903210228k4b470432ofb8889923a67e8ca@mail.gmail.com> "The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution" http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 15:17:41 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 09:17:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] drinkers of coffees and those who leer at pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/3/16 spike : > > http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2050.htm > ...This author?hits close to > home when?he decries those who leer at pornography.? For the record *I do > not leer at pornography.* > > I may *admire* pornography, and occasionally *drool over* pornography, and > perhaps even hold pornography in high esteem. Exactly right. For non-leerers it is "erotica" or "adult entertainment". Only for those who bringto it their own self-cofigured shame and depravity is it porn. Oh, by the way, MEMRI is the deepest of deep neo-con and ex-Israeli intelligence. They troll the Arab media for the worst of the worst, and then stovepipe it to the American jewish community as the mainstream Arab voice. Like saying David Duke is the American mainstream. Part of the larger and immensely successful (dare I say it -- Zionist) program to demonize the Arabs, and keep the American jewish community fully hoodwinked and on board. Best, Jeff Davis "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." Winston Churchill From dagonweb at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 18:17:29 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:17:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drinkers of coffees and those who leer at pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I feel great confidence this whole silly Israeli-propaganda business, as in "we suffered so horribly as a race, we deserve our cake, ten times over, and going to milk the cow for centuries and we are going to get a greater Israel empire now now NOW" - is going to collapse really bad. As in explode in their faces. The problem with humanity right now, those empowered have no way to keep the hand from the cookie jar once it is open. That goes for me, that goes for everyone chowing down 3K calories at the Burger King and it goes for the jews, even if they believe themselves to be ten times blessed in the eyes of the lawd. One day the free ride will end. What will happen then? The US will decide to cut down on overheard and call Israel an unsupportable expense account. It will foment the EU to step back, figure it out yourselves. That day the Israeli will be out of sponsorship, weapons, UN votes and luck. My bet is that magically, the Israeli will start cooperating amazingly productively with their Arab neigbors, to amazing mutual benefit, and will prove without a doubt they have been playing world politics like a bitch, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 19:15:12 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:15:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 4:48 AM, John Grigg wrote: > > I'd like to know what the rest of you thought about it. ?And to what > extent you considered the series and ending, transhumanistic. At the risk of sounding like a schoolgirl with a crush, I think the finale and series as a whole were just stunning. I really can't think of any SF TV/movie that was on the same level in terms of writing, acting, and production. I really don't know why it's so under appreciated, except I suppose being tied into the campy 70's series probably turned a few people off. I pity any SF fans who shrugged it off and probably won't make it through the whole series without being exposed to lots of spoilers. Regarding the finale, I'm still trying to fit all the pieces together, but I do think the resolution was nicely transhumanistic. -Dave From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 21 19:22:49 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090321141936.0237fbb0@satx.rr.com> At 03:15 PM 3/21/2009 -0400, Dave Sill wrote: >Regarding the finale, I'm still trying to fit all the pieces together, >but I do think the resolution was nicely transhumanistic. Really? The NYT review notes: The humans have been worshiping multiple deities, but the longstanding battle between monotheism and polytheism is irrelevant, Gaius warns his adversary in philosophical summation. "Whether we want to call that God or Gods or some sublime inspiration or a divine force that we can't know or understand doesn't matter," he says. "God is a force of nature beyond good and evil." Atheism is the real enemy of mankind's progress; salvation seems to lie in a vague belief in angels and higher powers, as if the series thought of itself as a promotional appendage of Alcoholics Anonymous. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 20:51:58 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:51:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] For those in the bay area Message-ID: Next Tuesday, March 24 at 2 pm I am giving a talk at 2 pm at NASA Ames, building 262, room 100. The announcement reads: "Among other things, Keith will describe a unique launch system concept using a suborbital vehicle to take payloads above the atmosphere and a large, ground-based laser to accelerate payloads to orbital velocity. While obviously difficult to implement, this concept may enable massive economies of scale to enable whole new classes of space applications. Vigorous critique of the proposed system is strongly encouraged." The talk title is "A Comprehensive Solution to Energy and Climate Problems Utilizing Space Resources." It uses this set of slides: http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/library/CO2andSpaceResources.ppt I gave the talk to a group of about 30 PhDs in physics and chemistry to general approval. One comment, "Seems pretty straight forward". Unfortunately the rules under which I gave the talk preclude me saying who I talked to though I can make the content public. The guy who set up the talk doesn't know how to open it to non NASA people. Perhaps someone would like to set up another talk while I am in the area. Keith From sparge at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:39:24 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:39:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090321141936.0237fbb0@satx.rr.com> References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090321141936.0237fbb0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Really? Yeah, really. I actually watched the series and finale--and I'm not sure the reviewer did, or saw the same things I did. Even the Baltar quote: > "Whether we want to call that God or Gods or some sublime inspiration or a > divine force that we can't know or understand doesn't matter," he says. "God > is a force of nature beyond good and evil." includes wording that leaves room for "God" to be something other than the traditional omniscient, omnipotent entity that most people identify with the term. And that's just his interpretation of things. -Dave From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 22 13:37:54 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:37:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] SE and SPS development In-Reply-To: References: <580930c20903191345q52f02bb4va59b5fd69bea734d@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191505k72077aafu859fe7cc63273050@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903191636m6c1ecbd4y8a20186fd69a2cbe@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903200433k3b43a211n1f9357923e438d10@mail.gmail.com> <49C3E2FF.2060301@libero.it> Message-ID: <49C63F32.3010608@libero.it> Il 20/03/2009 20.11, Keith Henson ha scritto: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:39 AM, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: > > snip > >> There is no need of a 4 GW laser cannon to put in orbit a SPS system. >> You only need a Few launch of large missiles in LEO with the stuff needed to >> build a Space Elevator. > > You are seriously misinformed. Having translatyed in full the english SE page of the wikipedia in italian, maybe not. > You have to be at GEO to build an > elevator. Also we don't have the material for it and my never get it. I never wrote that the SE must be positioned in LEO, only that the stuff needed can be put in LEO first. I omitted to write that it can be then assembled there and moved to GEO with a tug. A simple, cheaper tug with a ion engine could move it in GEO. It is not a thing we need to do in a hurry. In this way the cost to put the SE in GEO would be reduced a bit. And the technology for a tug in space is worth pursuing. > It takes 15kWh/kg. 100 t, 100,000kg x 15kWh/h is 1.5 GW. So a moving > cable space elevator would need a 1.5 GW motor to power it. Who ever talked about a moving cable SE? > The > electrical in to potential energy gained is about 10% for climbers so > you would need a laser with a 15 GW input for climbers. Climbers make > no sense because you can lift as much with half as much ablation > propulsion lasers. The difference is that, if you have a large industrial base working in GEO (that I suppose we all want) you need to run stuff up and down, not only up or not only down. I could be wrong, but using flyweels we could have climbers extracting energy when going down and expending energy when going up. Given there is too much energy to be stored in a single full travel, climbers could exchange the cargo or the flywheels at a middle point and reuse the energy stored climbing or recharging the energy spent braking. > This is the one use that megawatt scale lasers have. And that's > marginal. You really need them in the tens of MW. Deorbiting trash could be a service in need, if all the crying I hear in the last years is to be believed. You don't need a single 100 MW laser to do the job. 100 x 1 MW laser aimed a different points of the veicle can do the same as a single 100 MW laser. http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/05/lasers-and-magnetic-launch-for-cheap.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/01/laser-array-space-launch.html http://www.jkare.com/VG_HX_4-29-SAS.pdf All the technologues are worth pursuing, because thay are good for different uses. A SE is good to move large cargo continuously, up ad down. Mainly unmanned cargo from/to GEO. When you have the first up, the cost to build others will reduce so much that near any large corporation and government will want one and will be able to build it. Laser lauch, missiles and so on are good for fast delivery of small cargo (and humans). Ion engines, light sails and other systems are good for travel between planets and more. ORION is good to put in space a very large object. Something too large to be put in orbit using the biggest SE available. But, I wonder, what is too large to be put in orbit that can not be buil there if we send the materials needed or produce them there? ORION, IMHO, don't have economics sense, like the large clipper planes at the end of the WW2. > I have a relative who was downwind of one of the underground shots > that failed to stay contained. Chances are fair they will die from > the effects. That the last U.S. underground test happened in 1992 and the last with failed containment was in the 1986 (1985?86 Charioteer 18 Nevada Test Site). I would suppose that the effects are not so bad, if they are alive 23 years after the exposition. I would add that, now, we have drug that, taken before, can reduce the damage of radiations, just in case. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 22 14:10:43 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:10:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drinkers of coffees and those who leer at pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C646E3.3090809@libero.it> Il 21/03/2009 16.17, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > Oh, by the way, MEMRI is the deepest of deep neo-con and ex-Israeli > intelligence. > They troll the Arab media for the worst of the worst, The problem with the arab media is that they are aligned with the government or they are out of business and in jail (or beaten, of killed). In the arab/muslim world there is only the government approved media, so what they show, say, support, is the government (and usually the people) supported idea. The only arab country where the media is free is Iraq and I don't understand why it is so. Could be the US meddling? So, when MEMRI make visible and understandable what the arab media of Siria, Giordania, Iran, Saudi Arabia and so on write and tell and show, they are doing an invaluable job to us that don't know arabic. Could you point us to some hate filled media in Israel? Could you point to mainstream > and then stovepipe it to the American jewish community as the > mainstream Arab voice. Like saying David Duke is the American > mainstream. Given the last gaffe of BHO about "special Olympic", I'm supposing the ONE is not representing the mainstream. > Part of the larger and immensely successful (dare I say > it -- Zionist) program to demonize the Arabs, and keep the American > jewish community fully hoodwinked and on board. For me, the mest way to demonize the muslim arabs is to go to their websites (a few are in english) and read them. They are filled with hate for anyone and anything that don't comply with their belief and will. They make an example of an italian proverb: "Il pi? pulito ha la rogna" "The cleaner has the mange" (and I'm not talking about some dirty in need of soap and water). Mirco From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 21:42:28 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:42:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Was: Re: Economy: "The Big Takeover" Now: WHAT DO WE DO? Message-ID: <2d6187670903221442n6a4cda3cg87e224e0e7a70b78@mail.gmail.com> No thoughts on this, folks? Wow. This story horrified me (yes, the corporate corruption & takeover of the U.S. govt. is nothing new, except that it is reaching never before seen heights). WHAT DO WE DO TO STOP IT??? AND WHAT IF WE CAN'T??? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print The Big Takeover The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution MATT TAIBBI Posted Mar 19, 2009 12:49 PM Advertisement It's over ? we're officially, royally fucked. no empire can survive being rendered a permanent laughingstock, which is what happened as of a few weeks ago, when the buffoons who have been running things in this country finally went one step too far. It happened when Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was forced to admit that he was once again going to have to stuff billions of taxpayer dollars into a dying insurance giant called AIG, itself a profound symbol of our national decline ? a corporation that got rich insuring the concrete and steel of American industry in the country's heyday, only to destroy itself chasing phantom fortunes at the Wall Street card tables, like a dissolute nobleman gambling away the family estate in the waning days of the British Empire. The latest bailout came as AIG admitted to having just posted the largest quarterly loss in American corporate history ? some $61.7 billion. In the final three months of last year, the company lost more than $27 million every hour. That's $465,000 a minute, a yearly income for a median American household every six seconds, roughly $7,750 a second. And all this happened at the end of eight straight years that America devoted to frantically chasing the shadow of a terrorist threat to no avail, eight years spent stopping every citizen at every airport to search every purse, bag, crotch and briefcase for juice boxes and explosive tubes of toothpaste. Yet in the end, our government had no mechanism for searching the balance sheets of companies that held life-or-death power over our society and was unable to spot holes in the national economy the size of Libya (whose entire GDP last year was smaller than AIG's 2008 losses). So it's time to admit it: We're fools, protagonists in a kind of gruesome comedy about the marriage of greed and stupidity. And the worst part about it is that we're still in denial ? we still think this is some kind of unfortunate accident, not something that was created by the group of psychopaths on Wall Street whom we allowed to gang-rape the American Dream. When Geithner announced the new $30 billion bailout, the party line was that poor AIG was just a victim of a lot of shitty luck ? bad year for business, you know, what with the financial crisis and all. Edward Liddy, the company's CEO, actually compared it to catching a cold: "The marketplace is a pretty crummy place to be right now," he said. "When the world catches pneumonia, we get it too." In a pathetic attempt at name-dropping, he even whined that AIG was being "consumed by the same issues that are driving house prices down and 401K statements down and Warren Buffet's investment portfolio down." Advertisement Liddy made AIG sound like an orphan begging in a soup line, hungry and sick from being left out in someone else's financial weather. He conveniently forgot to mention that AIG had spent more than a decade systematically scheming to evade U.S. and international regulators, or that one of the causes of its "pneumonia" was making colossal, world-sinking $500 billion bets with money it didn't have, in a toxic and completely unregulated derivatives market. Nor did anyone mention that when AIG finally got up from its seat at the Wall Street casino, broke and busted in the afterdawn light, it owed money all over town ? and that a huge chunk of your taxpayer dollars in this particular bailout scam will be going to pay off the other high rollers at its table. Or that this was a casino unique among all casinos, one where middle-class taxpayers cover the bets of billionaires. People are pissed off about this financial crisis, and about this bailout, but they're not pissed off enough. The reality is that the worldwide economic meltdown and the bailout that followed were together a kind of revolution, a coup d'?tat. They cemented and formalized a political trend that has been snowballing for decades: the gradual takeover of the government by a small class of connected insiders, who used money to control elections, buy influence and systematically weaken financial regulations. The crisis was the coup de gr?ce: Given virtually free rein over the economy, these same insiders first wrecked the financial world, then cunningly granted themselves nearly unlimited emergency powers to clean up their own mess. And so the gambling-addict leaders of companies like AIG end up not penniless and in jail, but with an Alien-style death grip on the Treasury and the Federal Reserve ? "our partners in the government," as Liddy put it with a shockingly casual matter-of-factness after the most recent bailout. The mistake most people make in looking at the financial crisis is thinking of it in terms of money, a habit that might lead you to look at the unfolding mess as a huge bonus-killing downer for the Wall Street class. But if you look at it in purely Machiavellian terms, what you see is a colossal power grab that threatens to turn the federal government into a kind of giant Enron ? a huge, impenetrable black box filled with self-dealing insiders whose scheme is the securing of individual profits at the expense of an ocean of unwitting involuntary shareholders, previously known as taxpayers. I. PATIENT ZERO The best way to understand the financial crisis is to understand the meltdown at AIG. AIG is what happens when short, bald managers of otherwise boring financial bureaucracies start seeing Brad Pitt in the mirror. This is a company that built a giant fortune across more than a century by betting on safety-conscious policyholders ? people who wear seat belts and build houses on high ground ? and then blew it all in a year or two by turning their entire balance sheet over to a guy who acted like making huge bets with other people's money would make his dick bigger. That guy ? the Patient Zero of the global economic meltdown ? was one Joseph Cassano, the head of a tiny, 400-person unit within the company called AIG Financial Products, or AIGFP. Cassano, a pudgy, balding Brooklyn College grad with beady eyes and way too much forehead, cut his teeth in the Eighties working for Mike Milken, the granddaddy of modern Wall Street debt alchemists. Milken, who pioneered the creative use of junk bonds, relied on messianic genius and a whole array of insider schemes to evade detection while wreaking financial disaster. Cassano, by contrast, was just a greedy little turd with a knack for selective accounting who ran his scam right out in the open, thanks to Washington's deregulation of the Wall Street casino. "It's all about the regulatory environment," says a government source involved with the AIG bailout. "These guys look for holes in the system, for ways they can do trades without government interference. Whatever is unregulated, all the action is going to pile into that." Advertisement The mess Cassano created had its roots in an investment boom fueled in part by a relatively new type of financial instrument called a collateralized-debt obligation. A CDO is like a box full of diced-up assets. They can be anything: mortgages, corporate loans, aircraft loans, credit-card loans, even other CDOs. So as X mortgage holder pays his bill, and Y corporate debtor pays his bill, and Z credit-card debtor pays his bill, money flows into the box. The key idea behind a CDO is that there will always be at least some money in the box, regardless of how dicey the individual assets inside it are. No matter how you look at a single unemployed ex-con trying to pay the note on a six-bedroom house, he looks like a bad investment. But dump his loan in a box with a smorgasbord of auto loans, credit-card debt, corporate bonds and other crap, and you can be reasonably sure that somebody is going to pay up. Say $100 is supposed to come into the box every month. Even in an apocalypse, when $90 in payments might default, you'll still get $10. What the inventors of the CDO did is divide up the box into groups of investors and put that $10 into its own level, or "tranche." They then convinced ratings agencies like Moody's and S&P to give that top tranche the highest AAA rating ? meaning it has close to zero credit risk. Suddenly, thanks to this financial seal of approval, banks had a way to turn their shittiest mortgages and other financial waste into investment-grade paper and sell them to institutional investors like pensions and insurance companies, which were forced by regulators to keep their portfolios as safe as possible. Because CDOs offered higher rates of return than truly safe products like Treasury bills, it was a win-win: Banks made a fortune selling CDOs, and big investors made much more holding them. The problem was, none of this was based on reality. "The banks knew they were selling crap," says a London-based trader from one of the bailed-out companies. To get AAA ratings, the CDOs relied not on their actual underlying assets but on crazy mathematical formulas that the banks cooked up to make the investments look safer than they really were. "They had some back room somewhere where a bunch of Indian guys who'd been doing nothing but math for God knows how many years would come up with some kind of model saying that this or that combination of debtors would only default once every 10,000 years," says one young trader who sold CDOs for a major investment bank. "It was nuts." Now that even the crappiest mortgages could be sold to conservative investors, the CDOs spurred a massive explosion of irresponsible and predatory lending. In fact, there was such a crush to underwrite CDOs that it became hard to find enough subprime mortgages ? read: enough unemployed meth dealers willing to buy million-dollar homes for no money down ? to fill them all. As banks and investors of all kinds took on more and more in CDOs and similar instruments, they needed some way to hedge their massive bets ? some kind of insurance policy, in case the housing bubble burst and all that debt went south at the same time. This was particularly true for investment banks, many of which got stuck holding or "warehousing" CDOs when they wrote more than they could sell. And that's were Joe Cassano came in. Known for his boldness and arrogance, Cassano took over as chief of AIGFP in 2001. He was the favorite of Maurice "Hank" Greenberg, the head of AIG, who admired the younger man's hard-driving ways, even if neither he nor his successors fully understood exactly what it was that Cassano did. According to a source familiar with AIG's internal operations, Cassano basically told senior management, "You know insurance, I know investments, so you do what you do, and I'll do what I do ? leave me alone." Given a free hand within the company, Cassano set out from his offices in London to sell a lucrative form of "insurance" to all those investors holding lots of CDOs. His tool of choice was another new financial instrument known as a credit-default swap, or CDS. The CDS was popularized by J.P. Morgan, in particular by a group of young, creative bankers who would later become known as the "Morgan Mafia," as many of them would go on to assume influential positions in the finance world. In 1994, in between booze and games of tennis at a resort in Boca Raton, Florida, the Morgan gang plotted a way to help boost the bank's returns. One of their goals was to find a way to lend more money, while working around regulations that required them to keep a set amount of cash in reserve to back those loans. What they came up with was an early version of the credit-default swap. In its simplest form, a CDS is just a bet on an outcome. Say Bank A writes a million-dollar mortgage to the Pope for a town house in the West Village. Bank A wants to hedge its mortgage risk in case the Pope can't make his monthly payments, so it buys CDS protection from Bank B, wherein it agrees to pay Bank B a premium of $1,000 a month for five years. In return, Bank B agrees to pay Bank A the full million-dollar value of the Pope's mortgage if he defaults. In theory, Bank A is covered if the Pope goes on a meth binge and loses his job. When Morgan presented their plans for credit swaps to regulators in the late Nineties, they argued that if they bought CDS protection for enough of the investments in their portfolio, they had effectively moved the risk off their books. Therefore, they argued, they should be allowed to lend more, without keeping more cash in reserve. A whole host of regulators ? from the Federal Reserve to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency ? accepted the argument, and Morgan was allowed to put more money on the street. What Cassano did was to transform the credit swaps that Morgan popularized into the world's largest bet on the housing boom. In theory, at least, there's nothing wrong with buying a CDS to insure your investments. Investors paid a premium to AIGFP, and in return the company promised to pick up the tab if the mortgage-backed CDOs went bust. But as Cassano went on a selling spree, the deals he made differed from traditional insurance in several significant ways. First, the party selling CDS protection didn't have to post any money upfront. When a $100 corporate bond is sold, for example, someone has to show 100 actual dollars. But when you sell a $100 CDS guarantee, you don't have to show a dime. So Cassano could sell investment banks billions in guarantees without having any single asset to back it up. Secondly, Cassano was selling so-called "naked" CDS deals. In a "naked" CDS, neither party actually holds the underlying loan. In other words, Bank B not only sells CDS protection to Bank A for its mortgage on the Pope ? it turns around and sells protection to Bank C for the very same mortgage. This could go on ad nauseam: You could have Banks D through Z also betting on Bank A's mortgage. Unlike traditional insurance, Cassano was offering investors an opportunity to bet that someone else's house would burn down, or take out a term life policy on the guy with AIDS down the street. It was no different from gambling, the Wall Street version of a bunch of frat brothers betting on Jay Feely to make a field goal. Cassano was taking book for every bank that bet short on the housing market, but he didn't have the cash to pay off if the kick went wide. Advertisement In a span of only seven years, Cassano sold some $500 billion worth of CDS protection, with at least $64 billion of that tied to the subprime mortgage market. AIG didn't have even a fraction of that amount of cash on hand to cover its bets, but neither did it expect it would ever need any reserves. So long as defaults on the underlying securities remained a highly unlikely proposition, AIG was essentially collecting huge and steadily climbing premiums by selling insurance for the disaster it thought would never come. Initially, at least, the revenues were enormous: AIGFP's returns went from $737 million in 1999 to $3.2 billion in 2005. Over the past seven years, the subsidiary's 400 employees were paid a total of $3.5 billion; Cassano himself pocketed at least $280 million in compensation. Everyone made their money ? and then it all went to shit. II. THE REGULATORS Cassano's outrageous gamble wouldn't have been possible had he not had the good fortune to take over AIGFP just as Sen. Phil Gramm ? a grinning, laissez-faire ideologue from Texas ? had finished engineering the most dramatic deregulation of the financial industry since Emperor Hien Tsung invented paper money in 806 A.D. For years, Washington had kept a watchful eye on the nation's banks. Ever since the Great Depression, commercial banks ? those that kept money on deposit for individuals and businesses ? had not been allowed to double as investment banks, which raise money by issuing and selling securities. The Glass-Steagall Act, passed during the Depression, also prevented banks of any kind from getting into the insurance business. But in the late Nineties, a few years before Cassano took over AIGFP, all that changed. The Democrats, tired of getting slaughtered in the fundraising arena by Republicans, decided to throw off their old reliance on unions and interest groups and become more "business-friendly." Wall Street responded by flooding Washington with money, buying allies in both parties. In the 10-year period beginning in 1998, financial companies spent $1.7 billion on federal campaign contributions and another $3.4 billion on lobbyists. They quickly got what they paid for. In 1999, Gramm co-sponsored a bill that repealed key aspects of the Glass-Steagall Act, smoothing the way for the creation of financial megafirms like Citigroup. The move did away with the built-in protections afforded by smaller banks. In the old days, a local banker knew the people whose loans were on his balance sheet: He wasn't going to give a million-dollar mortgage to a homeless meth addict, since he would have to keep that loan on his books. But a giant merged bank might write that loan and then sell it off to some fool in China, and who cared? The very next year, Gramm compounded the problem by writing a sweeping new law called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act that made it impossible to regulate credit swaps as either gambling or securities. Commercial banks ? which, thanks to Gramm, were now competing directly with investment banks for customers ? were driven to buy credit swaps to loosen capital in search of higher yields. "By ruling that credit-default swaps were not gaming and not a security, the way was cleared for the growth of the market," said Eric Dinallo, head of the New York State Insurance Department. The blanket exemption meant that Joe Cassano could now sell as many CDS contracts as he wanted, building up as huge a position as he wanted, without anyone in government saying a word. "You have to remember, investment banks aren't in the business of making huge directional bets," says the government source involved in the AIG bailout. When investment banks write CDS deals, they hedge them. But insurance companies don't have to hedge. And that's what AIG did. "They just bet massively long on the housing market," says the source. "Billions and billions." In the biggest joke of all, Cassano's wheeling and dealing was regulated by the Office of Thrift Supervision, an agency that would prove to be defiantly uninterested in keeping watch over his operations. How a behemoth like AIG came to be regulated by the little-known and relatively small OTS is yet another triumph of the deregulatory instinct. Under another law passed in 1999, certain kinds of holding companies could choose the OTS as their regulator, provided they owned one or more thrifts (better known as savings-and-loans). Because the OTS was viewed as more compliant than the Fed or the Securities and Exchange Commission, companies rushed to reclassify themselves as thrifts. In 1999, AIG purchased a thrift in Delaware and managed to get approval for OTS regulation of its entire operation. Making matters even more hilarious, AIGFP ? a London-based subsidiary of an American insurance company ? ought to have been regulated by one of Europe's more stringent regulators, like Britain's Financial Services Authority. But the OTS managed to convince the Europeans that it had the muscle to regulate these giant companies. By 2007, the EU had conferred legitimacy to OTS supervision of three mammoth firms ? GE, AIG and Ameriprise. That same year, as the subprime crisis was exploding, the Government Accountability Office criticized the OTS, noting a "disparity between the size of the agency and the diverse firms it oversees." Among other things, the GAO report noted that the entire OTS had only one insurance specialist on staff ? and this despite the fact that it was the primary regulator for the world's largest insurer! "There's this notion that the regulators couldn't do anything to stop AIG," says a government official who was present during the bailout. "That's bullshit. What you have to understand is that these regulators have ultimate power. They can send you a letter and say, 'You don't exist anymore,' and that's basically that. They don't even really need due process. The OTS could have said, 'We're going to pull your charter; we're going to pull your license; we're going to sue you.' And getting sued by your primary regulator is the kiss of death." When AIG finally blew up, the OTS regulator ostensibly in charge of overseeing the insurance giant ? a guy named C.K. Lee ? basically admitted that he had blown it. His mistake, Lee said, was that he believed all those credit swaps in Cassano's portfolio were "fairly benign products." Why? Because the company told him so. "The judgment the company was making was that there was no big credit risk," he explained. (Lee now works as Midwest region director of the OTS; the agency declined to make him available for an interview.) In early March, after the latest bailout of AIG, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner took what seemed to be a thinly veiled shot at the OTS, calling AIG a "huge, complex global insurance company attached to a very complicated investment bank/hedge fund that was allowed to build up without any adult supervision." But even without that "adult supervision," AIG might have been OK had it not been for a complete lack of internal controls. For six months before its meltdown, according to insiders, the company had been searching for a full-time chief financial officer and a chief risk-assessment officer, but never got around to hiring either. That meant that the 18th-largest company in the world had no one checking to make sure its balance sheet was safe and no one keeping track of how much cash and assets the firm had on hand. The situation was so bad that when outside consultants were called in a few weeks before the bailout, senior executives were unable to answer even the most basic questions about their company ? like, for instance, how much exposure the firm had to the residential-mortgage market. III. THE CRASH Ironically, when reality finally caught up to Cassano, it wasn't because the housing market crapped but because of AIG itself. Before 2005, the company's debt was rated triple-A, meaning he didn't need to post much cash to sell CDS protection: The solid creditworthiness of AIG's name was guarantee enough. But the company's crummy accounting practices eventually caused its credit rating to be downgraded, triggering clauses in the CDS contracts that forced Cassano to post substantially more collateral to back his deals. Advertisement By the fall of 2007, it was evident that AIGFP's portfolio had turned poisonous, but like every good Wall Street huckster, Cassano schemed to keep his insane, Earth-swallowing gamble hidden from public view. That August, balls bulging, he announced to investors on a conference call that "it is hard for us, without being flippant, to even see a scenario within any kind of realm of reason that would see us losing $1 in any of those transactions." As he spoke, his CDS portfolio was racking up $352 million in losses. When the growing credit crunch prompted senior AIG executives to re-examine its liabilities, a company accountant named Joseph St. Denis became "gravely concerned" about the CDS deals and their potential for mass destruction. Cassano responded by personally forcing the poor sap out of the firm, telling him he was "deliberately excluded" from the financial review for fear that he might "pollute the process." The following February, when AIG posted $11.5 billion in annual losses, it announced the resignation of Cassano as head of AIGFP, saying an auditor had found a "material weakness" in the CDS portfolio. But amazingly, the company not only allowed Cassano to keep $34 million in bonuses, it kept him on as a consultant for $1 million a month. In fact, Cassano remained on the payroll and kept collecting his monthly million through the end of September 2008, even after taxpayers had been forced to hand AIG $85 billion to patch up his fuck-ups. When asked in October why the company still retained Cassano at his $1 million-a-month rate despite his role in the probable downfall of Western civilization, CEO Martin Sullivan told Congress with a straight face that AIG wanted to "retain the 20-year knowledge that Mr. Cassano had." (Cassano, who is apparently hiding out in his lavish town house near Harrods in London, could not be reached for comment.) What sank AIG in the end was another credit downgrade. Cassano had written so many CDS deals that when the company was facing another downgrade to its credit rating last September, from AA to A, it needed to post billions in collateral ? not only more cash than it had on its balance sheet but more cash than it could raise even if it sold off every single one of its liquid assets. Even so, management dithered for days, not believing the company was in serious trouble. AIG was a dried-up prune, sapped of any real value, and its top executives didn't even know it. On the weekend of September 13th, AIG's senior leaders were summoned to the offices of the New York Federal Reserve. Regulators from Dinallo's insurance office were there, as was Geithner, then chief of the New York Fed. Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, who spent most of the weekend preoccupied with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, came in and out. Also present, for reasons that would emerge later, was Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman Sachs. The only relevant government office that wasn't represented was the regulator that should have been there all along: the OTS. "We sat down with Paulson, Geithner and Dinallo," says a person present at the negotiations. "I didn't see the OTS even once." On September 14th, according to another person present, Treasury officials presented Blankfein and other bankers in attendance with an absurd proposal: "They basically asked them to spend a day and check to see if they could raise the money privately." The laughably short time span to complete the mammoth task made the answer a foregone conclusion. At the end of the day, the bankers came back and told the government officials, gee, we checked, but we can't raise that much. And the bailout was on. A short time later, it came out that AIG was planning to pay some $90 million in deferred compensation to former executives, and to accelerate the payout of $277 million in bonuses to others ? a move the company insisted was necessary to "retain key employees." When Congress balked, AIG canceled the $90 million in payments. Then, in January 2009, the company did it again. After all those years letting Cassano run wild, and after already getting caught paying out insane bonuses while on the public till, AIG decided to pay out another $450 million in bonuses. And to whom? To the 400 or so employees in Cassano's old unit, AIGFP, which is due to go out of business shortly! Yes, that's right, an average of $1.1 million in taxpayer-backed money apiece, to the very people who spent the past decade or so punching a hole in the fabric of the universe! "We, uh, needed to keep these highly expert people in their seats," AIG spokeswoman Christina Pretto says to me in early February. "But didn't these 'highly expert people' basically destroy your company?" I ask. Pretto protests, says this isn't fair. The employees at AIGFP have already taken pay cuts, she says. Not retaining them would dilute the value of the company even further, make it harder to wrap up the unit's operations in an orderly fashion. The bonuses are a nice comic touch highlighting one of the more outrageous tangents of the bailout age, namely the fact that, even with the planet in flames, some members of the Wall Street class can't even get used to the tragedy of having to fly coach. "These people need their trips to Baja, their spa treatments, their hand jobs," says an official involved in the AIG bailout, a serious look on his face, apparently not even half-kidding. "They don't function well without them." IV. THE POWER GRAB So that's the first step in wall street's power grab: making up things like credit-default swaps and collateralized-debt obligations, financial products so complex and inscrutable that ordinary American dumb people ? to say nothing of federal regulators and even the CEOs of major corporations like AIG ? are too intimidated to even try to understand them. That, combined with wise political investments, enabled the nation's top bankers to effectively scrap any meaningful oversight of the financial industry. In 1997 and 1998, the years leading up to the passage of Phil Gramm's fateful act that gutted Glass-Steagall, the banking, brokerage and insurance industries spent $350 million on political contributions and lobbying. Gramm alone ? then the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee ? collected $2.6 million in only five years. The law passed 90-8 in the Senate, with the support of 38 Democrats, including some names that might surprise you: Joe Biden, John Kerry, Tom Daschle, Dick Durbin, even John Edwards. The act helped create the too-big-to-fail financial behemoths like Citigroup, AIG and Bank of America ? and in turn helped those companies slowly crush their smaller competitors, leaving the major Wall Street firms with even more money and power to lobby for further deregulatory measures. "We're moving to an oligopolistic situation," Kenneth Guenther, a top executive with the Independent Community Bankers of America, lamented after the Gramm measure was passed. Advertisement The situation worsened in 2004, in an extraordinary move toward deregulation that never even got to a vote. At the time, the European Union was threatening to more strictly regulate the foreign operations of America's big investment banks if the U.S. didn't strengthen its own oversight. So the top five investment banks got together on April 28th of that year and ? with the helpful assistance of then-Goldman Sachs chief and future Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson ? made a pitch to George Bush's SEC chief at the time, William Donaldson, himself a former investment banker. The banks generously volunteered to submit to new rules restricting them from engaging in excessively risky activity. In exchange, they asked to be released from any lending restrictions. The discussion about the new rules lasted just 55 minutes, and there was not a single representative of a major media outlet there to record the fateful decision. Donaldson OK'd the proposal, and the new rules were enough to get the EU to drop its threat to regulate the five firms. The only catch was, neither Donaldson nor his successor, Christopher Cox, actually did any regulating of the banks. They named a commission of seven people to oversee the five companies, whose combined assets came to total more than $4 trillion. But in the last year and a half of Cox's tenure, the group had no director and did not complete a single inspection. Great deal for the banks, which originally complained about being regulated by both Europe and the SEC, and ended up being regulated by no one. Once the capital requirements were gone, those top five banks went hog-wild, jumping ass-first into the then-raging housing bubble. One of those was Bear Stearns, which used its freedom to drown itself in bad mortgage loans. In the short period between the 2004 change and Bear's collapse, the firm's debt-to-equity ratio soared from 12-1 to an insane 33-1. Another culprit was Goldman Sachs, which also had the good fortune, around then, to see its CEO, a bald-headed Frankensteinian goon named Hank Paulson (who received an estimated $200 million tax deferral by joining the government), ascend to Treasury secretary. Freed from all capital restraints, sitting pretty with its man running the Treasury, Goldman jumped into the housing craze just like everyone else on Wall Street. Although it famously scored an $11 billion coup in 2007 when one of its trading units smartly shorted the housing market, the move didn't tell the whole story. In truth, Goldman still had a huge exposure come that fateful summer of 2008 ? to none other than Joe Cassano. Goldman Sachs, it turns out, was Cassano's biggest customer, with $20 billion of exposure in Cassano's CDS book. Which might explain why Goldman chief Lloyd Blankfein was in the room with ex-Goldmanite Hank Paulson that weekend of September 13th, when the federal government was supposedly bailing out AIG. When asked why Blankfein was there, one of the government officials who was in the meeting shrugs. "One might say that it's because Goldman had so much exposure to AIGFP's portfolio," he says. "You'll never prove that, but one might suppose." Market analyst Eric Salzman is more blunt. "If AIG went down," he says, "there was a good chance Goldman would not be able to collect." The AIG bailout, in effect, was Goldman bailing out Goldman. Eventually, Paulson went a step further, elevating another ex-Goldmanite named Edward Liddy to run AIG ? a company whose bailout money would be coming, in part, from the newly created TARP program, administered by another Goldman banker named Neel Kashkari. V. REPO MEN There are plenty of people who have noticed, in recent years, that when they lost their homes to foreclosure or were forced into bankruptcy because of crippling credit-card debt, no one in the government was there to rescue them. But when Goldman Sachs ? a company whose average employee still made more than $350,000 last year, even in the midst of a depression ? was suddenly faced with the possibility of losing money on the unregulated insurance deals it bought for its insane housing bets, the government was there in an instant to patch the hole. That's the essence of the bailout: rich bankers bailing out rich bankers, using the taxpayers' credit card. The people who have spent their lives cloistered in this Wall Street community aren't much for sharing information with the great unwashed. Because all of this shit is complicated, because most of us mortals don't know what the hell LIBOR is or how a REIT works or how to use the word "zero coupon bond" in a sentence without sounding stupid ? well, then, the people who do speak this idiotic language cannot under any circumstances be bothered to explain it to us and instead spend a lot of time rolling their eyes and asking us to trust them. That roll of the eyes is a key part of the psychology of Paulsonism. The state is now being asked not just to call off its regulators or give tax breaks or funnel a few contracts to connected companies; it is intervening directly in the economy, for the sole purpose of preserving the influence of the megafirms. In essence, Paulson used the bailout to transform the government into a giant bureaucracy of entitled assholedom, one that would socialize "toxic" risks but keep both the profits and the management of the bailed-out firms in private hands. Moreover, this whole process would be done in secret, away from the prying eyes of NASCAR dads, broke-ass liberals who read translations of French novels, subprime mortgage holders and other such financial losers. Some aspects of the bailout were secretive to the point of absurdity. In fact, if you look closely at just a few lines in the Federal Reserve's weekly public disclosures, you can literally see the moment where a big chunk of your money disappeared for good. The H4 report (called "Factors Affecting Reserve Balances") summarizes the activities of the Fed each week. You can find it online, and it's pretty much the only thing the Fed ever tells the world about what it does. For the week ending February 18th, the number under the heading "Repurchase Agreements" on the table is zero. It's a significant number. Why? In the pre-crisis days, the Fed used to manage the money supply by periodically buying and selling securities on the open market through so-called Repurchase Agreements, or Repos. The Fed would typically dump $25 billion or so in cash onto the market every week, buying up Treasury bills, U.S. securities and even mortgage-backed securities from institutions like Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan, who would then "repurchase" them in a short period of time, usually one to seven days. This was the Fed's primary mechanism for controlling interest rates: Buying up securities gives banks more money to lend, which makes interest rates go down. Selling the securities back to the banks reduces the money available for lending, which makes interest rates go up. Advertisement If you look at the weekly H4 reports going back to the summer of 2007, you start to notice something alarming. At the start of the credit crunch, around August of that year, you see the Fed buying a few more Repos than usual ? $33 billion or so. By November, as private-bank reserves were dwindling to alarmingly low levels, the Fed started injecting even more cash than usual into the economy: $48 billion. By late December, the number was up to $58 billion; by the following March, around the time of the Bear Stearns rescue, the Repo number had jumped to $77 billion. In the week of May 1st, 2008, the number was $115 billion ? "out of control now," according to one congressional aide. For the rest of 2008, the numbers remained similarly in the stratosphere, the Fed pumping as much as $125 billion of these short-term loans into the economy ? until suddenly, at the start of this year, the number drops to nothing. Zero. The reason the number has dropped to nothing is that the Fed had simply stopped using relatively transparent devices like repurchase agreements to pump its money into the hands of private companies. By early 2009, a whole series of new government operations had been invented to inject cash into the economy, most all of them completely secretive and with names you've never heard of. There is the Term Auction Facility, the Term Securities Lending Facility, the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, the Commercial Paper Funding Facility and a monster called the Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility (boasting the chat-room horror-show acronym ABCPMMMFLF). For good measure, there's also something called a Money Market Investor Funding Facility, plus three facilities called Maiden Lane I, II and III to aid bailout recipients like Bear Stearns and AIG. While the rest of America, and most of Congress, have been bugging out about the $700 billion bailout program called TARP, all of these newly created organisms in the Federal Reserve zoo have quietly been pumping not billions but trillions of dollars into the hands of private companies (at least $3 trillion so far in loans, with as much as $5.7 trillion more in guarantees of private investments). Although this technically isn't taxpayer money, it still affects taxpayers directly, because the activities of the Fed impact the economy as a whole. And this new, secretive activity by the Fed completely eclipses the TARP program in terms of its influence on the economy. No one knows who's getting that money or exactly how much of it is disappearing through these new holes in the hull of America's credit rating. Moreover, no one can really be sure if these new institutions are even temporary at all ? or whether they are being set up as permanent, state-aided crutches to Wall Street, designed to systematically suck bad investments off the ledgers of irresponsible lenders. "They're supposed to be temporary," says Paul-Martin Foss, an aide to Rep. Ron Paul. "But we keep getting notices every six months or so that they're being renewed. They just sort of quietly announce it." None other than disgraced senator Ted Stevens was the poor sap who made the unpleasant discovery that if Congress didn't like the Fed handing trillions of dollars to banks without any oversight, Congress could apparently go fuck itself ? or so said the law. When Stevens asked the GAO about what authority Congress has to monitor the Fed, he got back a letter citing an obscure statute that nobody had ever heard of before: the Accounting and Auditing Act of 1950. The relevant section, 31 USC 714(b), dictated that congressional audits of the Federal Reserve may not include "deliberations, decisions and actions on monetary policy matters." The exemption, as Foss notes, "basically includes everything." According to the law, in other words, the Fed simply cannot be audited by Congress. Or by anyone else, for that matter. VI. WINNERS AND LOSERS Stevens isn't the only person in Congress to be given the finger by the Fed. In January, when Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida asked Federal Reserve vice chairman Donald Kohn where all the money went ? only $1.2 trillion had vanished by then ? Kohn gave Grayson a classic eye roll, saying he would be "very hesitant" to name names because it might discourage banks from taking the money. "Has that ever happened?" Grayson asked. "Have people ever said, 'We will not take your $100 billion because people will find out about it?'" "Well, we said we would not publish the names of the borrowers, so we have no test of that," Kohn answered, visibly annoyed with Grayson's meddling. Grayson pressed on, demanding to know on what terms the Fed was lending the money. Presumably it was buying assets and making loans, but no one knew how it was pricing those assets ? in other words, no one knew what kind of deal it was striking on behalf of taxpayers. So when Grayson asked if the purchased assets were "marked to market" ? a methodology that assigns a concrete value to assets, based on the market rate on the day they are traded ? Kohn answered, mysteriously, "The ones that have market values are marked to market." The implication was that the Fed was purchasing derivatives like credit swaps or other instruments that were basically impossible to value objectively ? paying real money for God knows what. "Well, how much of them don't have market values?" asked Grayson. "How much of them are worthless?" "None are worthless," Kohn snapped. "Then why don't you mark them to market?" Grayson demanded. "Well," Kohn sighed, "we are marking the ones to market that have market values." In essence, the Fed was telling Congress to lay off and let the experts handle things. "It's like buying a car in a used-car lot without opening the hood, and saying, 'I think it's fine,'" says Dan Fuss, an analyst with the investment firm Loomis Sayles. "The salesman says, 'Don't worry about it. Trust me.' It'll probably get us out of the lot, but how much farther? None of us knows." When one considers the comparatively extensive system of congressional checks and balances that goes into the spending of every dollar in the budget via the normal appropriations process, what's happening in the Fed amounts to something truly revolutionary ? a kind of shadow government with a budget many times the size of the normal federal outlay, administered dictatorially by one man, Fed chairman Ben Bernanke. "We spend hours and hours and hours arguing over $10 million amendments on the floor of the Senate, but there has been no discussion about who has been receiving this $3 trillion," says Sen. Bernie Sanders. "It is beyond comprehension." Count Sanders among those who don't buy the argument that Wall Street firms shouldn't have to face being outed as recipients of public funds, that making this information public might cause investors to panic and dump their holdings in these firms. "I guess if we made that public, they'd go on strike or something," he muses. And the Fed isn't the only arm of the bailout that has closed ranks. The Treasury, too, has maintained incredible secrecy surrounding its implementation even of the TARP program, which was mandated by Congress. To this date, no one knows exactly what criteria the Treasury Department used to determine which banks received bailout funds and which didn't ? particularly the first $350 billion given out under Bush appointee Hank Paulson. The situation with the first TARP payments grew so absurd that when the Congressional Oversight Panel, charged with monitoring the bailout money, sent a query to Paulson asking how he decided whom to give money to, Treasury responded ? and this isn't a joke ? by directing the panel to a copy of the TARP application form on its website. Elizabeth Warren, the chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel, was struck nearly speechless by the response. "Do you believe that?" she says incredulously. "That's not what we had in mind." Another member of Congress, who asked not to be named, offers his own theory about the TARP process. "I think basically if you knew Hank Paulson, you got the money," he says. This cozy arrangement created yet another opportunity for big banks to devour market share at the expense of smaller regional lenders. While all the bigwigs at Citi and Goldman and Bank of America who had Paulson on speed-dial got bailed out right away ? remember that TARP was originally passed because money had to be lent right now, that day, that minute, to stave off emergency ? many small banks are still waiting for help. Five months into the TARP program, some not only haven't received any funds, they haven't even gotten a call back about their applications. "There's definitely a feeling among community bankers that no one up there cares much if they make it or not," says Tanya Wheeless, president of the Arizona Bankers Association. Which, of course, is exactly the opposite of what should be happening, since small, regional banks are far less guilty of the kinds of predatory lending that sank the economy. "They're not giving out subprime loans or easy credit," says Wheeless. "At the community level, it's much more bread-and-butter banking." Nonetheless, the lion's share of the bailout money has gone to the larger, so-called "systemically important" banks. "It's like Treasury is picking winners and losers," says one state banking official who asked not to be identified. This itself is a hugely important political development. In essence, the bailout accelerated the decline of regional community lenders by boosting the political power of their giant national competitors. Which, when you think about it, is insane: What had brought us to the brink of collapse in the first place was this relentless instinct for building ever-larger megacompanies, passing deregulatory measures to gradually feed all the little fish in the sea to an ever-shrinking pool of Bigger Fish. To fix this problem, the government should have slowly liquidated these monster, too-big-to-fail firms and broken them down to smaller, more manageable companies. Instead, federal regulators closed ranks and used an almost completely secret bailout process to double down on the same faulty, merger-happy thinking that got us here in the first place, creating a constellation of megafirms under government control that are even bigger, more unwieldy and more crammed to the gills with systemic risk. Advertisement In essence, Paulson and his cronies turned the federal government into one gigantic, half-opaque holding company, one whose balance sheet includes the world's most appallingly large and risky hedge fund, a controlling stake in a dying insurance giant, huge investments in a group of teetering megabanks, and shares here and there in various auto-finance companies, student loans, and other failing businesses. Like AIG, this new federal holding company is a firm that has no mechanism for auditing itself and is run by leaders who have very little grasp of the daily operations of its disparate subsidiary operations. In other words, it's AIG's rip-roaringly shitty business model writ almost inconceivably massive ? to echo Geithner, a huge, complex global company attached to a very complicated investment bank/hedge fund that's been allowed to build up without adult supervision. How much of what kinds of crap is actually on our balance sheet, and what did we pay for it? When exactly will the rent come due, when will the money run out? Does anyone know what the hell is going on? And on the linear spectrum of capitalism to socialism, where exactly are we now? Is there a dictionary word that even describes what we are now? It would be funny, if it weren't such a nightmare. VII. YOU DON'T GET IT The real question from here is whether the Obama administration is going to move to bring the financial system back to a place where sanity is restored and the general public can have a say in things or whether the new financial bureaucracy will remain obscure, secretive and hopelessly complex. It might not bode well that Geithner, Obama's Treasury secretary, is one of the architects of the Paulson bailouts; as chief of the New York Fed, he helped orchestrate the Goldman-friendly AIG bailout and the secretive Maiden Lane facilities used to funnel funds to the dying company. Neither did it look good when Geithner ? himself a prot?g? of notorious Goldman alum John Thain, the Merrill Lynch chief who paid out billions in bonuses after the state spent billions bailing out his firm ? picked a former Goldman lobbyist named Mark Patterson to be his top aide. In fact, most of Geithner's early moves reek strongly of Paulsonism. He has continually talked about partnering with private investors to create a so-called "bad bank" that would systemically relieve private lenders of bad assets ? the kind of massive, opaque, quasi-private bureaucratic nightmare that Paulson specialized in. Geithner even refloated a Paulson proposal to use TALF, one of the Fed's new facilities, to essentially lend cheap money to hedge funds to invest in troubled banks while practically guaranteeing them enormous profits. God knows exactly what this does for the taxpayer, but hedge-fund managers sure love the idea. "This is exactly what the financial system needs," said Andrew Feldstein, CEO of Blue Mountain Capital and one of the Morgan Mafia. Strangely, there aren't many people who don't run hedge funds who have expressed anything like that kind of enthusiasm for Geithner's ideas. As complex as all the finances are, the politics aren't hard to follow. By creating an urgent crisis that can only be solved by those fluent in a language too complex for ordinary people to understand, the Wall Street crowd has turned the vast majority of Americans into non-participants in their own political future. There is a reason it used to be a crime in the Confederate states to teach a slave to read: Literacy is power. In the age of the CDS and CDO, most of us are financial illiterates. By making an already too-complex economy even more complex, Wall Street has used the crisis to effect a historic, revolutionary change in our political system ? transforming a democracy into a two-tiered state, one with plugged-in financial bureaucrats above and clueless customers below. The most galling thing about this financial crisis is that so many Wall Street types think they actually deserve not only their huge bonuses and lavish lifestyles but the awesome political power their own mistakes have left them in possession of. When challenged, they talk about how hard they work, the 90-hour weeks, the stress, the failed marriages, the hemorrhoids and gallstones they all get before they hit 40. "But wait a minute," you say to them. "No one ever asked you to stay up all night eight days a week trying to get filthy rich shorting what's left of the American auto industry or selling $600 billion in toxic, irredeemable mortgages to ex-strippers on work release and Taco Bell clerks. Actually, come to think of it, why are we even giving taxpayer money to you people? Why are we not throwing your ass in jail instead?" But before you even finish saying that, they're rolling their eyes, because You Don't Get It. These people were never about anything except turning money into money, in order to get more money; valueswise they're on par with crack addicts, or obsessive sexual deviants who burgle homes to steal panties. Yet these are the people in whose hands our entire political future now rests. Good luck with that, America. And enjoy tax season. [From Issue 1075 ? April 2, 2009] On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:28 AM, John Grigg wrote: > "The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How > Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution" > > http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print > From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 22:09:24 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:09:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Was: Re: Economy: "The Big Takeover" Now: WHAT DO WE DO? In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903221442n6a4cda3cg87e224e0e7a70b78@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903221442n6a4cda3cg87e224e0e7a70b78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/22/09, John Grigg wrote: > No thoughts on this, folks? Wow. This story horrified me (yes, the > corporate corruption & takeover of the U.S. govt. is nothing new, > except that it is reaching never before seen heights). > > WHAT DO WE DO TO STOP IT??? AND WHAT IF WE CAN'T??? > OK, if you insist. :) I don't think there is much that *we* can do. I see the solution as getting the people back in control. At the moment, billionaires are discussing with other billionaires how best to use the government's money to keep their lifestyle secure. Rather than bailing-out failed bankrupt companies, 1) The government should temporarily take them over and guarantee their debts (to avoid worldwide panic). 2) Sack all the billionaire managers and investigate them for fraud. If they are convicted of fraud, then jail them and take all their assets as the proceeds of crime. 3) Hire financial staff at reasonable salaries to rebuild the companies from the ground up. (I understand there are many financial people looking for employment at present). 4) Unwind and de-leverage all the financial garbage. (This will take years). 5) Reprivatise the companies after the cleanup, when shareholders might find their shareholdings had some value after all. Write to your congressman now! BillK From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 22 23:22:13 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:22:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> Gordon wrote (in "What is Grace") > Other related societal goals include retribution > and rehabilitation. Should we make the guilty suffer? Yes. > Should we try to make them better people? Open questions. Well, the first one wasn't hard, so I'll address the second one. To me, attempting to make true criminals into better people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. We assume that *we* are so superior that we can look down our noses at their "inferior" behavior and that since *we* are so smart and so superior, *we* can devise ways to change them. Now, I've made this point before, to no avail, so I'll illustrate in a way that I hope works better. The story of a certain Viking (I'll call him Rolf) is well-known. When pillaging English villages, Rolf not only failed to enjoy stabbing babies through the middle, swinging them around a bit, and seeing how far he could toss them, he actually spoke out against it! All the other Vikings could clearly see that Rolf was a bit nuts. If it weren't that he was still a very capable and bloody warrior, they would have suspected him completely sick of mind, tear his balls off, and leave him at home with the women. Now what if a number of them had tried to "rehabilitate" Rolf? I can just hear the conversation: Jarg: "Let's force him to butcher all the babies in the village himself. He'll get used to [good works]." Odar: "I heard of a case where that was tried, but it didn't work." Jarg: "Is there no way that Odin will help us varsig [rehabilitate] Jorg? Their problem, which they cannot see, is that Rolf's nature is different from theirs. He's a throwback to a vanished tribal way of life in which *all* babies were to be nurtured and if possible saved from death for the sake of the tribe. The Vikings here just aren't smart enough (i.e. don't have advanced enough technology) to "solve" Rolf's problem. Well, neither do we! A criminal (especially a sociopath) is just as deeply wedded to his values as we are to ours. And it's an arrogant waste of money to assume otherwise. If we can get the upper hand against them, they become fewer and we dominate (as in modern Sweden). But if they breed faster, and conditions favor them (as they did in the days of the Vikings and as they do today in big cities), then we lose and they dominate. It's us against them, and those of *us* who don't realize that---those idiots among us---are just helping us dig our own graves. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 22 23:31:14 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:31:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <900176.62549.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <900176.62549.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C6CA42.1060005@rawbw.com> Gordon wrote: > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/ > > Per the Stanford Encylopedia, we could (perhaps > at the risk of over-simplifying) first classify > justifications for punishment into two basic categories: > forward-looking and backward-looking, i.e., > consequationalist and deontological. > > "The practice of punishment must be justified > by reference either to forward-looking or to > backward-looking considerations. If the former > prevail, then the theory is consequentialist > and probably some version of utilitarianism, Very good. I like that. > "according to which the point of the practice > of punishment is to increase overall net social > welfare by reducing (ideally, preventing) crime. > If the latter prevail, the theory is deontological; > on this approach, punishment is seen either as a > good in itself or as a practice required by > justice, thus making a direct claim on our > allegiance." Yes. And I guess we're all "forward looking" here. I may be the only one who had even one kind thing to say about retribution (namely, that in some cases the victims or the relatives of the victims appear to need it), and even that is "forward looking". > I find it interesting that while almost every > reasonable person will agree that we ought to > incarcerate or execute wrong-doers, there seems > to exist no clear consensus on exactly why. Eh? Well, the only disagreements I know about are (a) whether deterrence is effective (it is, obviously, or I would speed a lot more than I do), and (b) whether rehabilitation is possible (which at the present time, it is not, short of extreme brain- washing techniques). Lee From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 23 02:29:28 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] punishment Message-ID: <800594.44788.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Lee Corbin wrote: >> Should we make the guilty suffer? > > Yes. In that case I think you must reject Spike's interesting proposal that we place the guilty into suffer-free states of cryonic suspension. Spike's idea addresses rehabilitation (he proposes to thaw them if and when we find a way to cure their criminal dispositions) and deterrence (at least to the extent that it deters second offenses), but it seems to reject retribution. > To me, attempting to make true criminals into better > people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. If I understand you, you reject rehabilitation as a justification for incarceration while accepting retribution and deterrence and perhaps also other justifications. Yes? > The story of a certain Viking (I'll call him Rolf)... >... It's us against them, and those of *us* who don't realize > that---those idiots among us---are just helping us dig > our own graves. Here you seem to have channeled Nietzsche. Nevermind whether it's good or evil for Rolf the Viking to spare or to slaughter infants! We must look Beyond Good and Evil, to Will to Power. :) -gts From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 23 02:40:25 2009 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] punishment Message-ID: <342369.75713.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Lee Corbin wrote: >> I find it interesting that while almost every >> reasonable person will agree that we ought to >> incarcerate or execute wrong-doers, there seems >> to exist no clear consensus on exactly why. > > Eh? Well, the only disagreements I know about are > (a) whether deterrence is effective (it is, obviously, > or I would speed a lot more than I do), and (b) > whether rehabilitation is possible (which at the > present time, it is not, short of extreme brain- > washing techniques). Some people reject retributive justice. See for example this criticism of retributive justice from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice "According to some theories of ethics, punishment (or proportional punishment) is evidently self-contradictory. Retributive punishment is unethical, these theories essentially claim, [because] 'two wrongs do not make a right... Some hold that the motive behind the Christian sanction for interpersonal relations ('turn the other cheek' before seeking retribution for a wrong), and the motive behind the sanctions for social magistrates (which include the application of retributive justice, e.g., 'just stonings'), conflict." -gts From lcorbin at rawbw.com Mon Mar 23 05:24:24 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:24:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <800594.44788.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <800594.44788.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C71D08.80106@rawbw.com> Gordon wrote: > --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > >>> Should we make the guilty suffer? >> Yes. Well, (I meant to say) not for the reason per se of suffering, but for the purposes of deterrence (and maybe occasionally for revenge in the case where families or victims appear to need it). > In that case I think you must reject Spike's interesting proposal that we place the guilty into suffer-free states of cryonic suspension. Spike's idea addresses rehabilitation (he proposes to thaw them if and when we find a way to cure their criminal dispositions) and deterrence (at least to the extent that it deters second offenses), but it seems to reject retribution. I've always been in favor of that. In 1988, when I first converted to cryonics (and in my case, it was a *conversion*), I suggested to Christine Peterson that we simply lop off and freeze the heads of criminals instead of simply killing them. But as soon as this ceased having deterrent value---as I said---then we'd have to stop. >> To me, attempting to make true criminals into better >> people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. > > If I understand you, you reject rehabilitation as a justification for incarceration while accepting retribution and deterrence and perhaps also other justifications. Yes? Close. Retribution seems like a weak reason to punish or confine. Of the four reasons commonly given (or, so it seemed to me)---Removal, Retribution, Rehabilitation, and Deterrence---I really accept only Deterrence and Removal. >> The story of a certain Viking (I'll call him Rolf)... > > > >> ... It's us against them, and those of *us* who don't realize >> that---those idiots among us---are just helping us dig >> our own graves. > > Here you seem to have channeled Nietzsche. Nevermind whether it's good or evil for Rolf the Viking to spare or to slaughter infants! We must look Beyond Good and Evil, to Will to Power. :) Hmm. Really? Nietsche? Or are you joking? I like your Stanford Philosophy article which explained mine and others' position in terms of utilitarianism. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Mon Mar 23 05:26:37 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:26:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <342369.75713.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <342369.75713.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C71D8D.8010302@rawbw.com> Gordon wrote > Some people reject retributive justice. Indeed they do. I certainly reject it (except in unusual cases). I don't think that anyone here supports it, unless you do? Lee See for example this criticism of retributive justice from: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice > > "According to some theories of ethics, punishment (or proportional punishment) is evidently self-contradictory. Retributive punishment is unethical, these theories essentially claim, [because] 'two wrongs do not make a right... Some hold that the motive behind the Christian sanction for interpersonal relations ('turn the other cheek' before seeking retribution for a wrong), and the motive behind the sanctions for social magistrates (which include the application of retributive justice, e.g., 'just stonings'), conflict." > > -gts > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From crwbot at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 05:56:07 2009 From: crwbot at gmail.com (Christopher Whipple) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:56:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's in the Box? Message-ID: <123db6100903222256k30629359o865f6de6582600a4@mail.gmail.com> Looks like an indie film project: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU_reTt7Hj4 I got chills down my spine when the PA system announced "singularity in 3 minutes..." :) -c. From dagonweb at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 08:39:05 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:39:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What's in the Box? In-Reply-To: <123db6100903222256k30629359o865f6de6582600a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <123db6100903222256k30629359o865f6de6582600a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Those street scenes look so oppressively dutch it gave me the creeps. It is good to see that apocalyptic views of technology, depicted in understandable imagery is finally trickling down to entertainment levels. This means that consumers are starting to get simplistic access to the imagery that has been bubbling in transhuman minds of years. That is quite important. 2009/3/23 Christopher Whipple > Looks like an indie film project: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU_reTt7Hj4 > > I got chills down my spine when the PA system announced "singularity > in 3 minutes..." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksei at iki.fi Mon Mar 23 09:47:16 2009 From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:47:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" Message-ID: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:42 PM, John Grigg wrote: > No thoughts on this, folks? Similar things are gonna happen again, as long as the Wall Street folks are smarter than the regulators, or the regulators can be bought out by Wall Street. Or maybe this should be simplified to: Similar things are gonna happen again, as long as the Wall Street folks are smarter than the voters. -- Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 12:21:02 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:21:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Gordon wrote (in "What is Grace") >> Other related societal goals include retribution >> and rehabilitation. Should we make the guilty suffer? > > Yes. > >> Should we try to make them better people? Open questions. > > Well, the first one wasn't hard, so I'll address the > second one. > > To me, attempting to make true criminals into better > people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. I fully agree. See also the tale of the Pale Criminal in Thus Spake Zarathustra . More modestly, what we can say is that every society attempts to make its members more functional to its value system and internal working through punishments and rewards, not to mention a pinch of propaganda during punishment. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 13:01:36 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI)) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:01:36 -0300 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> John Grigg> How many of you saw the Battlestar Galactica series finale? I was > extremely impressed by it, especially the final scene involving robots > and AGI. I thought the ending was smart and fun. I could see > transhumanists wanting the roles the A.I. Gaius and A.I. Caprica had > at the end/beginning of things... > I'd like to know what the rest of you thought about it. And to what > extent you considered the series and ending, transhumanistic. Loved it. It's the simulation argument romanced and god is the big frakking computer running it (although it doesn't like that name as hinted by A.I. Gaius). What else could explain Starbuck coming back from the dead with a new ship in pristine state other than the simulation operators subverting the rules a bit? BSG is the ultimate Matrix without the silly duracell people and with copious carnage. Funny thing about the series. Those who are into our kind of stuff (transumanism, extropy, etc) tend to observe the finale from the point of view of A.I. Gaius and A.I. Six. Those less connected to these themes (or not at all) tend to view it through the eyes of the simulated beings. From jrd1415 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 21:21:28 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:21:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) Message-ID: I find much of his discussion frustrating. As an almost-engineer I place a high value on elegant design. By elegant I mean simple, efficient, clever or novel or both, seemingly obvious but only after the fact, and almost always beautiful. Because (to my tastes) they satisfy none of these criteria, the space elevator and the Orion concept are repugnant to me. The solar sat idea -- precursor to the Dyson sphere -- on the other hand, I find quite thrilling. I would like to suggest -- and I'm certain others will quickly advise me that this suggestion is both obvious and "ancient" (I make no claim to originality here)-- that the two challenges: escape from Earth's gravity well, and the solar sat provision of abundant, clean, and economical energy, be decoupled. I would like to see a cost comparison for a solar sat program where the sats don't come from earth, but either directly from the moon, or from the moon to a facility at one of the Lagrange points, and thence to the operating location wherever that may finally be. Such a calculation would necessarily have to take into account that both the Lunar base and the Lagrange facility would have many uses beyond the provision of solar sats, so that the overall cost need not be assigned completely to the solar sat aspect of their operation. If I could start the ball rolling,... In no time at all, we could put a hundred (thousand ?) human workers on the moon and have them diligently building the first lunar base, if the humans were remote bot operators performing their moon work by tele-operation. I imagine bots the size of a hamster. Accompanied by the appropriate inventory of tools, only a bare minimum of "vitamins" (per Freitas) would need to come from earth. The hard stuff -- autonomous operation or closure -- would not be an issue, this not, repeat not, self-replication. And since the bots operators would not be "locals", operator labor costs would be low, zero, or even negative. "What?", you say. "Negative, as in they pay for the privilege to work on this project?" Yes. Either for the thrill of it, or for an equity stake. Simply stated: How much would you pay for the chance to operate a moon bot AND AT THE SAME TIME earn an equity stake in economic paradigm-altering venture? I'm in my "happy place" now! How bout chew? Best, Jeff Davis "You are what you think." Jeff Davis From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 23 22:53:38 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:53:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (was: cold fusion warms up) In-Reply-To: <014a01c728cd$94486e50$e6074e0c@MyComputer> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061221145947.022ccd08@satx.rr.com> <00a501c728ba$40dfb7e0$e6074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20061226011511.0224ea90@satx.rr.com> <014a01c728cd$94486e50$e6074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090323174749.026f96a0@satx.rr.com> At 04:09 AM 12/26/2006 -0500, John Clark wrote: >Come on Damien be honest, is there really any reason to think cold fusion is >true other than the fact you wish it were true? Well I wish it were true >too, but it's not. The new year is coming so I'll make you a little bet, >I'll bet you that an article favorable to cold fusion (not counting Muon >fusion) will not be published in Nature or Science in the next year. If the >article appears I will publicly admit that I was wrong and you were right. >But if the article does not appear will you do the same? I mean, if the >phenomenon is real it can't remain hidden forever from the scientific >method forever. I intend to remember this bet one year from today. It's too late for that bet (and since I'm not a gambling man, and don't really care strongly one way or the other, I didn't take it), but anyone interested in placed a wager with John might take note of this: ============= Public release date: 23-Mar-2009 Contact: Michael Bernstein m_bernstein at acs.org 202-872-6042 American Chemical Society 'Cold fusion' rebirth? New evidence for existence of controversial energy source Note to journalists: Please report that this research was presented at a meeting of the American Chemical Society SALT LAKE CITY, March 23, 2009 ? Researchers are reporting compelling new scientific evidence for the existence of low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR), the process once called "cold fusion" that may promise a new source of energy. One group of scientists, for instance, describes what it terms the first clear visual evidence that LENR devices can produce neutrons, subatomic particles that scientists view as tell-tale signs that nuclear reactions are occurring. Low-energy nuclear reactions could potentially provide 21st Century society a limitless and environmentally-clean energy source for generating electricity, researchers say. The report, which injects new life into this controversial field, will be presented here today at the American Chemical Society's 237th National Meeting. It is among 30 papers on the topic that will be presented during a four-day symposium, "New Energy Technology," March 22-25, in conjunction with the 20th anniversary of the first description of cold fusion. "Our finding is very significant," says study co-author and analytical chemist Pamela Mosier-Boss, Ph.D., of the U.S. Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (SPAWAR) in San Diego, Calif. "To our knowledge, this is the first scientific report of the production of highly energetic neutrons from an LENR device." ...In the new study, Mosier-Boss and colleagues inserted an electrode composed of nickel or gold wire into a solution of palladium chloride mixed with deuterium or "heavy water" in a process called co-deposition. A single atom of deuterium contains one neutron and one proton in its nucleus. Researchers passed electric current through the solution, causing a reaction within seconds. The scientists then used a special plastic, CR-39, to capture and track any high-energy particles that may have been emitted during reactions, including any neutrons emitted during the fusion of deuterium atoms. At the end of the experiment, they examined the plastic with a microscope and discovered patterns of "triple tracks," tiny-clusters of three adjacent pits that appear to split apart from a single point. The researchers say that the track marks were made by subatomic particles released when neutrons smashed into the plastic. Importantly, Mosier-Boss and colleagues believe that the neutrons originated in nuclear reactions, perhaps from the combining or fusing deuterium nuclei. "People have always asked 'Where's the neutrons?'" Mosier-Boss says. "If you have fusion going on, then you have to have neutrons. We now have evidence that there are neutrons present in these LENR reactions." They cited other evidence for nuclear reactions including X-rays, tritium (another form of hydrogen), and excess heat. Meanwhile, Mosier-Boss and colleagues are continuing to explore the phenomenon to get a better understanding of exactly how LENR works, which is key to being able to control it for practical purposes. Mosier-Boss points out that the field currently gets very little funding and, despite its promise, researchers can't predict when, or if, LENR may emerge from the lab with practical applications. The U.S. Department of the Navy and JWK International Corporation in Annandale, Va., funded the study. Other highlights in the symposium include: Overview, update on LENR by editor of New Energy Times ? Steve Krivit, editor of New Energy Times and author of "The Rebirth of Cold Fusion," will present an overview of the field of low energy nuclear reactions, formerly known as "cold fusion." A leading authority on the topic, Krivit will discuss the strengths, weaknesses, and implications of this controversial subject, including its brief history. (ENVR 002, Sunday, March 22, 8:55 a.m. Hilton, Alpine Ballroom West, during the symposium, "New Energy Technology) Excess heat, gamma radiation production from an unconventional LENR device ?Tadahiko Mizuno, Ph.D., of Hokkaido University in Japan, has reported the production of excess heat generation and gamma ray emissions from an unconventional LENR device that uses phenanthrene, a type of hydrocarbon, as a reactant. He is the author of the book "Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion." (ENVR 049, Monday, March 23, 3:35 p.m., Hilton, Alpine Ballroom West, during the symposium, "New Energy Technology.") New evidence supporting production and control of low energy nuclear reactions ? Antonella De Ninno, Ph.D., a scientist with New Technologies Energy and Environment in Italy, will describe evidence supporting the existence of low energy nuclear reactions. She conducted lab experiments demonstrating the simultaneous production of both excess heat and helium gas, tell-tale evidence supporting the nuclear nature of LENR. She also shows that scientists can control the phenomenon. (ENVR 064, Tuesday, March 24, 10:10 a.m., Hilton, Alpine Ballroom West, during the symposium, "New Energy Technology) ### The American Chemical Society is a nonprofit organization chartered by the U.S. Congress. With more than 154,000 members, ACS is the world's largest scientific society and a global leader in providing access to chemistry-related research through its multiple databases, peer-reviewed journals and scientific conferences. Its main offices are in Washington, D.C., and Columbus, Ohio. ============================= Of course, they're only chemists, not real scientists like physicists. Damien Broderick From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 23 23:12:47 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:12:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] punishment References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> "Lee Corbin" Gordon wrote: >Should we make the guilty suffer? Lee Corbin wrote: >Yes. The reptilian parts of my brain would agree with Lee; yes it would be delightful to see a child murderer slowly and very very horribly tortured. But another part of my brain screams that it's hideous that it's even possible to inflict pain of that enormous magnitude on any conscious entity regardless of how evil it is. A significant part of my mind screams that it is horrendous that such pain is even possible to exist in the physical universe. In the best of all possible (or perhaps impossible) worlds I would decree that extreme pain of that astronomical magnitude is just imposable, even for the very worst sorts of evil doers. Pain of that sort makes me unhappy regardless of where it is directed. But that's just me; there is no disputing matters of taste. And by the way, I think I'd make for a very good God, really first rate. I think I could do a bang up job decreeing what is good and what it bad; it's just a pity that nobody offered me the job of being the one and only true God; I'd have beaten the crap out of that young punk Yahweh. John K Clark From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 23 23:50:01 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:50:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090323183650.02645558@satx.rr.com> At 07:12 PM 3/23/2009 -0400, John K Clark wrote: >it's >just a pity that nobody offered me the job of being the one and only true >God; I'd have beaten the crap out of that young punk Yahweh. Yes indeed. Something I try to urge on people who revere "ancient teachings" and "ancient wisdom" makes the same point: Yahweh was an *early, primitive* god, and the wise men and women of ancient India, China and Greece represent *young punks offering mostly uninformed guesses* about almost everything they address that isn't still self-evident and uncontroversial. Funny how most people seem to think, "Hmm, cool, written 3000 years ago! that must be as deep and true as the teachings of a wise person who's three millennia old," rather than, "Hmm, cool, latest news from this century, built on the accumulated, tested wisdom of three millennia of clever people abandoning stupid or mistaken notions one after another." Damien Broderick From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 23 23:46:11 2009 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:46:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space Message-ID: <668033.90292.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Jeff, whenever we've asked Mr Henson why he favours massive earth-launch as soon as possible, he's always pointed to the time taken to set up lunar mining or asteroid mining facilities, and how they'd probably add a significant amount to start-up costs. Keith is of the opinion we need solar power satellites in 10-15 years, which means getting the whole project under way NOW. Those who are worried about peak oil and energy shortages understand the sooner we get power satellites the less we have to worry about economical collapse (or maybe even civilisation collapse) from energy shortages. Those who are worried about anthropogenic climate change believe the sooner we stop burning fossil fuels and start getting our energy from other sources, the safer it is for all of us. Therefore, many people see that time is quite important, so Keith's obsession with getting as much material to GEO as quickly as possible to start the whole programme is understandable. The laser launches, space elevators, ORION launchers, plus other things like cannons, balloon launchers, launch loops/tracks/space piers et al are just the way to get as much from earth to GEO as you can soon. The lunar solution is more energy efficient, and in the long term could well be cheaper, and would provide interesting side benefits. However, purely from the point of view of weaning our civilisation off burning fuel it suffers seriously timewise. Tom (hoping for a room temperature superconductor someday soon) From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 02:26:49 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:26:49 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: 2009/3/24 Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) : > Loved it. > It's the simulation argument romanced and god is the big frakking computer > running it (although it doesn't like that name as hinted by A.I. Gaius). > What else could explain Starbuck coming back from the dead with a new ship > in pristine state other than the simulation operators subverting the rules a > bit? > BSG is the ultimate Matrix without the silly duracell people and with > copious carnage. Any other reasons why you think the writers didn't intend that the ultimate explanation was supernatural? -- Stathis Papaioannou From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 02:40:39 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:40:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > I find much of his discussion frustrating. ?As an almost-engineer I > place a high value on elegant design. ?By elegant I mean simple, > efficient, clever or novel or both, seemingly obvious but only after > the fact, and almost always beautiful. ?Because (to my tastes) they > satisfy none of these criteria, the space elevator and the Orion > concept are repugnant to me. I consider the moving cable space elevator elegant. It uses the least possible amount of power to lift payload to GEO. But I don't think you are likely to see either an elevator or an Orion before the singularity. We lack the cable for the elevator and firing 1000 bombs in the atmosphere before we get cell repair devices seems unlikely. > The solar sat idea -- precursor to the Dyson sphere -- on the other > hand, I find quite thrilling. ?I would like to suggest -- and I'm > certain others will quickly advise me that this suggestion is both > obvious and "ancient" (I make no claim to originality here)-- that the > two challenges: escape from Earth's gravity well, and the solar sat > provision of abundant, clean, and economical energy, be decoupled. ?I > would like to see a cost comparison for a solar sat program where the > sats don't come from earth, but either directly from the moon, or from > the moon to a facility at one of the Lagrange points, and thence to > the operating location wherever that may finally be. ?Such a > calculation would necessarily have to take into account that both the > Lunar base and the Lagrange facility would have many uses beyond the > provision of solar sats, so that the overall cost need not be assigned > completely to the solar sat aspect of their operation. You are advocating Gerry O'Neill's space colony program. It didn't get support back in the 70s and I don't see where things have changed. Understand that I am still an advocate of ET materials, but I don't see them being used for the first power sats. > If I could start the ball rolling,... In no time at all, we could put > a hundred (thousand ?) human workers on the moon and have them > diligently building the first lunar base, if the humans were remote > bot operators performing their moon work by tele-operation. ?I imagine > bots the size of a hamster. ?Accompanied by the appropriate inventory > of tools, only a bare minimum of "vitamins" (per Freitas) would need > to come from earth. ?The hard stuff -- autonomous operation or closure > -- would not be an issue, this not, repeat not, self-replication. ?And > since the bots operators would not be "locals", operator labor costs > would be low, zero, or even negative. ?"What?", you say. ?"Negative, > as in they pay for the privilege to work on this project?" ?Yes. > Either for the thrill of it, or for an equity stake. ?Simply stated: > How much would you pay for the chance to operate a moon bot AND AT THE > SAME TIME earn an equity stake in economic paradigm-altering venture? You need to put numbers on your proposal. I have stated that I will jump ship from my proposals to any other proposal that holds up to a physical and economical analysis, particularly if it gets very large scale energy return sooner. But since you have not put any number except "thousands" let's consider the cost. It's going to take at least ten tons of stuff landed on the moon for materials and living space per person. For a thousand people, that's ten thousand tons, or 10 million kg. If you try to do this with current rockets, and taking the cost to the moon as the same as to GEO, that' $20,000/kg x 10 million kg or $200 billion just for transport cost. I have seen a recent estimate for setting up mining and materials processing on the moon. The number was $2000 billion. This is not a reasonable number. Keith > I'm in my "happy place" now! > > How bout chew? > > Best, Jeff Davis > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"You are what you think." > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Jeff Davis > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 02:56:21 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:56:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> The solar sat idea -- precursor to the Dyson sphere -- on the other >> hand, I find quite thrilling. ?I would like to suggest -- and I'm >> certain others will quickly advise me that this suggestion is both >> obvious and "ancient" (I make no claim to originality here)-- that the >> two challenges: escape from Earth's gravity well, and the solar sat >> provision of abundant, clean, and economical energy, be decoupled. ?I >> would like to see a cost comparison for a solar sat program where the >> sats don't come from earth, but either directly from the moon, or from >> the moon to a facility at one of the Lagrange points, and thence to >> the operating location wherever that may finally be. ?Such a >> calculation would necessarily have to take into account that both the >> Lunar base and the Lagrange facility would have many uses beyond the >> provision of solar sats, so that the overall cost need not be assigned >> completely to the solar sat aspect of their operation. > > You are advocating Gerry O'Neill's space colony program. ?It didn't > get support back in the 70s and I don't see where things have changed. Not true. Shame on you- didn't you live through that period? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Neill_habitat "In 1977 O'Neill saw the peak of interest in space colonization, along with the publication of his first book, The High Frontier.[36] He and his wife were flying between meetings, interviews, and hearings.[5] On October 9, the CBS program 60 Minutes ran a segment about space colonies. Later they aired responses from the viewers, which included one from Senator William Proxmire, chairman of the Senate Subcommittee responsible for NASA's budget. His response was, "it's the best argument yet for chopping NASA's funding to the bone .... I say not a penny for this nutty fantasy".[51] He successfully eliminated spending on space colonization research from the budget.[52] In 1978, Paul Werbos wrote for the L-5 newsletter, "no one expects Congress to commit us to O'Neill's concept of large-scale space habitats; people in NASA are almost paranoid about the public relations aspects of the idea".[53] When it became clear that a government funded colonization effort was politically impossible, popular support for O'Neill's ideas started to evaporate.[36]" Also see the TOC: 3.1 Origin of the idea (1969) 3.2 First paper (1970?1974) 3.3 NASA studies (1975?1977) 3.4 Private funding (1977?1978) 3.5 Opposition (1977?1985) i.e., "Although NASA was supporting his work with grants of up to $500,000 per year, O'Neill became frustrated by the bureaucracy and politics inherent in government funded research.[3][21] He thought that small privately funded groups could develop space technology faster than government agencies.[2] In 1977 O'Neill and his wife Tasha founded the Space Studies Institute, a non-profit organization, at Princeton University.[6][43] SSI received initial funding of almost $100,000 from private donors, and in early 1978 began to support basic research into technologies needed for space manufacturing and settlement.[44]" btw, for anyone with more knowledge on this, why the hell did he start off looking into a mass driver? wtf? priorities? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 03:14:11 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:14:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Philip Jose Farmer has died Message-ID: <2d6187670903232014w6be09d02he427ab5fa39b591f@mail.gmail.com> A very talented author has passed away, and I need to read much more of his work (especially his biography of Tarzan). Farmer lived to be 91, but it's still very sad. I wish I had gotten the chance to meet him. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/4939303/Philip-Jos-Farmer.html John : ( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 03:31:48 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:31:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >>> The solar sat idea -- precursor to the Dyson sphere -- on the other >>> hand, I find quite thrilling. ?I would like to suggest -- and I'm >>> certain others will quickly advise me that this suggestion is both >>> obvious and "ancient" (I make no claim to originality here)-- that the >>> two challenges: escape from Earth's gravity well, and the solar sat >>> provision of abundant, clean, and economical energy, be decoupled. ?I >>> would like to see a cost comparison for a solar sat program where the >>> sats don't come from earth, but either directly from the moon, or from >>> the moon to a facility at one of the Lagrange points, and thence to >>> the operating location wherever that may finally be. ?Such a >>> calculation would necessarily have to take into account that both the >>> Lunar base and the Lagrange facility would have many uses beyond the >>> provision of solar sats, so that the overall cost need not be assigned >>> completely to the solar sat aspect of their operation. >> >> You are advocating Gerry O'Neill's space colony program. ?It didn't >> get support back in the 70s and I don't see where things have changed. > > Not true. Shame on you- didn't you live through that period? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Neill_habitat I was one of the founders of the L5 Society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L5_Society And knew Dr. O'Neill very well. > "In 1977 O'Neill saw the peak of interest in space colonization, along > with the publication of his first book, The High Frontier.[36] He and > his wife were flying between meetings, interviews, and hearings.[5] On > October 9, the CBS program 60 Minutes ran a segment about space > colonies. Later they aired responses from the viewers, which included > one from Senator William Proxmire, chairman of the Senate Subcommittee > responsible for NASA's budget. His response was, "it's the best > argument yet for chopping NASA's funding to the bone .... I say not a > penny for this nutty fantasy".[51] He successfully eliminated spending > on space colonization research from the budget.[52] In 1978, Paul > Werbos wrote for the L-5 newsletter, "no one expects Congress to > commit us to O'Neill's concept of large-scale space habitats; people > in NASA are almost paranoid about the public relations aspects of the > idea".[53] When it became clear that a government funded colonization > effort was politically impossible, popular support for O'Neill's ideas > started to evaporate.[36]" > > Also see the TOC: > > 3.1 Origin of the idea (1969) > 3.2 First paper (1970?1974) > 3.3 NASA studies (1975?1977) > 3.4 Private funding (1977?1978) > 3.5 Opposition (1977?1985) > > i.e., > > "Although NASA was supporting his work with grants of up to $500,000 > per year, O'Neill became frustrated by the bureaucracy and politics > inherent in government funded research.[3][21] He thought that small > privately funded groups could develop space technology faster than > government agencies.[2] In 1977 O'Neill and his wife Tasha founded the > Space Studies Institute, a non-profit organization, at Princeton > University.[6][43] SSI received initial funding of almost $100,000 > from private donors, and in early 1978 began to support basic research > into technologies needed for space manufacturing and settlement.[44]" Nothing you have said indicates the idea got support in the 79s, at least not in relation to the support required to do anything with it. > btw, for anyone with more knowledge on this, why the hell did he start > off looking into a mass driver? wtf? priorities? It was very reasonable if you grok the physics involved. Keith > - Bryan > http://heybryan.org/ > 1 512 203 0507 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 04:09:16 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:09:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70903232109j3f6617b3ta59cb668ed2edb33@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >>> You are advocating Gerry O'Neill's space colony program. ?It didn't >>> get support back in the 70s and I don't see where things have changed. >> >> Not true. Shame on you- didn't you live through that period? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Neill_habitat > > I was one of the founders of the L5 Society. Yes, we are all aware of this. > And knew Dr. O'Neill very well. I didn't know that. > Nothing you have said indicates the idea got support in the 79s, at > least not in relation to the support required to do anything with it. Meh, I think 1 out of 10 is not enough to call the entire batch bad. Let's not argue over a single year- I'm just saying, it's a bit of an understatement of the other years of his work. >> btw, for anyone with more knowledge on this, why the hell did he start >> off looking into a mass driver? wtf? priorities? > > It was very reasonable if you grok the physics involved. I'm not so sure- I think there are other activities you could look into for space colonization efforts. Arguably, there is always technology over the horizon. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 24 04:45:43 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:45:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903232109j3f6617b3ta59cb668ed2edb33@mail.gmail.co m> References: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70903232109j3f6617b3ta59cb668ed2edb33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090323234504.023d4408@satx.rr.com> At 11:09 PM 3/23/2009 -0500, Bryan wrote: > > Nothing you have said indicates the idea got support in the 79s, at > > least not in relation to the support required to do anything with it. > >Meh, I think 1 out of 10 is not enough to call the entire batch bad. >Let's not argue over a single year- I'm just saying, it's a bit of an >understatement of the other years of his work. Obviously that's a typo for 70s. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 04:52:56 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:52:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090323234504.023d4408@satx.rr.com> References: <55ad6af70903231956k1a0bd56w1ca1e01fb080d245@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70903232109j3f6617b3ta59cb668ed2edb33@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090323234504.023d4408@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:09 PM 3/23/2009 -0500, Bryan wrote: > >> > Nothing you have said indicates the idea got support in the 79s, at >> > least not in relation to the support required to do anything with it. >> >> Meh, I think 1 out of 10 is not enough to call the entire batch bad. >> Let's not argue over a single year- I'm just saying, it's a bit of an >> understatement of the other years of his work. > > Obviously that's a typo for 70s. Right. The payoff time for space industry has always been too long for either private investment or public. And it is perceived as too risky. Keith From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 06:16:58 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:16:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision Conference Message-ID: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> I attended the "Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision" Conference, that was held at the Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California. It was great to see my Mormon Transhumanist Association friends and engage in some friendly debates. This is the video footage of the event... http://pc2009.confreaks.com/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 06:37:08 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:37:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > It's going to take at least ten tons of stuff landed on the moon for > materials and living space per person. ?For a thousand people, that's > ten thousand tons, or 10 million kg. ?If you try to do this with > current rockets, and taking the cost to the moon as the same as to > GEO, that' $20,000/kg x 10 million kg or $200 billion just for > transport cost. I'm sorry. I thought I was clear. The one thousand moon workers wouldn't go to the moon. They would perform their work by teleoperation, employing hamster-size robots. How much then to get a thousand hampsters and their miniaturized industrial combine to the moon? Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. Yo, Bryan, care to comment? What basic tool set would my thousand hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build the moon base, and make more bots? Minimum mass; lunar regolith starting materials;... Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 07:05:06 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:05:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space In-Reply-To: <668033.90292.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <668033.90292.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: > > Jeff, whenever we've asked Mr Henson why he favours massive earth-launch as soon as possible, he's always pointed to the time taken to set up lunar mining or asteroid mining facilities, and how they'd probably add a significant amount to start-up costs. Keith is of the opinion we need solar power satellites in 10-15 years, which means getting the whole project under way NOW. Yes, but he's also said that the space elevator isn't happening, and orion, though apparently feasible, has a BIG public relations problem. And laser launch is notional, with zero infrastructure. So we're left with proven conventional launch methods. Big uns. Lotsa big uns. > ?Those who are worried about peak oil and energy shortages understand the sooner we get power satellites the less we have to worry about economical collapse (or maybe even civilisation collapse) from energy shortages. > > Those who are worried about anthropogenic climate change believe the sooner we stop burning fossil fuels and start getting our energy from other sources, the safer it is for all of us. I'm not emotionally vested in that situation, but if it becomes a big enough political phenomenon, then there could be funding opportunities. Blessings upon you, my child. Our interests nevertheless coincide. You want solar sats to save the planet, I want them as an intro to the commercial exploitation of space. > Therefore, many people see that time is quite important, so Keith's obsession with getting as much material to GEO as quickly as possible to start the whole programme is understandable. The laser launches, space elevators, ORION launchers, plus other things like cannons, balloon launchers, launch loops/tracks/space piers et al are just the way to get as much from earth to GEO as you can soon. The lunar solution is more energy efficient, and in the long term could well be cheaper, and would provide interesting side benefits. > However, purely from the point of view of weaning our civilisation off burning fuel it suffers seriously timewise. Maybe, but I'd still like to see a spreadsheet. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 07:20:18 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 02:20:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. ?Yo, > Bryan, care to comment? ?What basic tool set would my thousand > hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build > the moon base, and make more bots? ?Minimum mass; lunar regolith > starting materials;... That really depends on the context. What gets to become a vitamin part, and what has to be made on the spot? I'd start by looking over Freitas' KSRM book for a list of the different types of tools that you might need. Recently I saw a good paper on a thermodynamic analysis of different manufacturing processes, which might provide a starting point for energetically-analyzed processes (as opposed to just random guessing about the parametric variables). This is partly why I've been wanting to do a diagram-based explanation of what it takes to build different manufacturing process units, i.e. the dependency requirements of the machines, such as what it requires to build those machines that build the machines, and whether or not they are satisfied by machines already "in use" or "on the list". It's a big job, certainly something that could be computerized .. if I had more data. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 24 08:11:56 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:11:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> Stefano writes > > To me, attempting to make true criminals into better > > people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. > > I fully agree. > > See also the tale of the Pale Criminal in Thus Spake Zarathustra > . > > More modestly, what we can say is that every society attempts to make > its members more functional to its value system and internal working > through punishments and rewards, not to mention a pinch of propaganda > during punishment. Yes. While we may say, objectively, that some societies are more advanced than others technologically, it's difficult to make the case that some are more advanced than others morally. Of course, *we* embrace---and should embrace--- on this score that our values are preferable and "better", but I don't think that these are really scientific claims. That is, the Aztec practice of torturing small children to death in order to make it rain can be criticized with 100% objectivity on scientific grounds (it doesn't work), and can be seen as primitive and barbaric. Yet our vigorous, unrelenting denunciations of the morality of their solution ---denunciations which should be acerbic, tendentious, loud, and near hysterical---should simply be seen for what they are: our wishes to supplant their morality with ours. Namely, us vs. them. (Speaking of Us vs. Them, Saturday was a bad day in California for us: one of Them scored 4-0 against Us when one of them killed four Oakland Police officers, a "hero" that will live long in the annals of our gangster enemies. We win some, we lose some against the enemy.) But to return to the subject at hand, should brain-washing techniques be used against *our* captives, i.e., the morally depraved criminals who fall into our hands? For example, the animal who killed those four Oakland Police Officer---should "Clockwork Orange" techniques be tried against him? I myself doubt it---but only because the techniques may be too non-humanitarian and because they probably (in 2009) cannot be made to work well enough. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 24 08:23:10 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:23:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090323183650.02645558@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090323183650.02645558@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49C8986E.4060502@rawbw.com> Damien wrote > At 07:12 PM 3/23/2009 -0400, John K Clark wrote: > >> it's >> just a pity that nobody offered me the job of being the one and only true >> God I'd vote for you in a millisecond. If only John K Clark were God. Wow! No more children dying in hideous pain in the cancer war. No more unemployment; no more migraine headaches for anyone; no more national debt. (Of course, not even God could stop congressional corruption, bribes to campaign contributions, and pure graft... but the effects on the rest of us would be insignificant with a real determined God, like John, getting in there and kicking butt.) > > I'd have beaten the crap out of that young punk Yahweh. Yay! That particular petty and vindictive ancient tyrant did need rehabilitation, which, as God, you would be able to effect. Damien: > Yes indeed. Something I try to urge on people who revere "ancient > teachings" and "ancient wisdom" makes the same point: Yahweh was an > *early, primitive* god, and the wise men and women of ancient India, > China and Greece represent *young punks offering mostly uninformed > guesses* about almost everything they address that isn't still > self-evident and uncontroversial. Quite right. But maybe I'm missing something. Shouldn't that be past tense? I.e., "the wise men... *were* young punks offering mostly uniformed guesses"? Lee > Funny how most people seem to think, > "Hmm, cool, written 3000 years ago! that must be as deep and true as the > teachings of a wise person who's three millennia old," rather than, > "Hmm, cool, latest news from this century, built on the accumulated, > tested wisdom of three millennia of clever people abandoning stupid or > mistaken notions one after another." > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Mar 24 09:02:10 2009 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (deimtee) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:02:10 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C8A192.1090101@optusnet.com.au> Bryan Bishop wrote: >On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > > >>Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. ?Yo, >>Bryan, care to comment? ?What basic tool set would my thousand >>hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build >>the moon base, and make more bots? ?Minimum mass; lunar regolith >>starting materials;... >> >> > >That really depends on the context. What gets to become a vitamin >part, and what has to be made on the spot? I'd start by looking over >Freitas' KSRM book for a list of the different types of tools that you >might need. Recently I saw a good paper on a thermodynamic analysis of >different manufacturing processes, which might provide a starting >point for energetically-analyzed processes (as opposed to just random >guessing about the parametric variables). This is partly why I've been >wanting to do a diagram-based explanation of what it takes to build >different manufacturing process units, i.e. the dependency >requirements of the machines, such as what it requires to build those >machines that build the machines, and whether or not they are >satisfied by machines already "in use" or "on the list". It's a big >job, certainly something that could be computerized .. if I had more >data. > >- Bryan >http://heybryan.org/ >1 512 203 0507 >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > A major part of your minimum startup mass is going to be the communications infrastructure. It is going to have to land working, and running hundreds to thousands of simultaneous video and control channels between here and the moon is going to be pretty non-trivial. (Although at least the station on the moon would only have to track a very limited range of movement of the ground stations for the Earth-Moon link.) Personally, I would operate one of the hamsters for free, but given the time and training investment, I would need to value the equity at being worth whatever fees you charged before I would pay much to run one. -David. From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 24 10:10:35 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 03:10:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> Aleksei writes > > On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:42 PM, John Grigg > > wrote: > > No thoughts on this, folks? > > Similar things are gonna happen again, as long as the Wall Street > folks are smarter than the regulators, or the regulators can be bought > out by Wall Street. It's not a matter of IQ, in my opinion. Similar things are going to happen so long as large amounts of money can influence government and so long as the government has the power to spend trillions of dollars on this or that. The current depression may never end (here) so long as the government has the power tax trillions to bail out wealth- destroying companies, who then can in turn funnel billions back into campaign contributions. Is anyone besides Ron Paul pointing out that government power is the heart of the problem? Romney? Anyone? > Or maybe this should be simplified to: Similar things are gonna happen > again, as long as the Wall Street folks are smarter than the voters. Now *that* could be a matter of IQ! :-) Lee From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 10:53:23 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:53:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Is anyone besides Ron Paul pointing out that government > power is the heart of the problem? Romney? Anyone? I do not know well enough Ron Paul's ideas, let alone have formed a final view of them, but I have to remark that he managed to raise a possibly fringe but very diverse interest, and that he seems from Europe one of the few US politicians to try and think "out of the box". -- Stefano Vaj From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:02:05 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI)) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:02:05 -0300 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: <032e01c9ac78$5a8f17f0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> > 2009/3/24 Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) : >> Loved it. >> It's the simulation argument romanced and god is the big frakking >> computer >> running it (although it doesn't like that name as hinted by A.I. Gaius). >> What else could explain Starbuck coming back from the dead with a new >> ship >> in pristine state other than the simulation operators subverting the >> rules a >> bit? >> BSG is the ultimate Matrix without the silly duracell people and with >> copious carnage. Stathis Papaioannou> Any other reasons why you think the writers didn't intend that the > ultimate explanation was supernatural? If you think nature as the simulated universe in BSG, then the ultimate explanation IS in fact supernatural, isn't it? To BSG's humans and cylons it is. But to outside viewers, that final scene pretty much gives it up. That's my interpretation (for I have no way to know what the writers really were thinking). For those simulated beings, there's no other way than the supernatural explanation. It all depends on where you place your POV. From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:10:31 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:10:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > Any other reasons why you think the writers didn't intend that the > ultimate explanation was supernatural? It doesn't really matter what the writers intend. What matters is how viewers interpret the end result. -Dave From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:19:23 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI)) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:19:23 -0300 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> <49C8A192.1090101@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <034e01c9ac7a$c53b1160$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> David> Personally, I would operate one of the hamsters for free, but given the > time and training investment, I would need to value the equity at being > worth whatever fees you charged before I would pay much to run one. This would be the ultimate Simcity videogame, right? Only this game would lead to something actually being built. I see a business model... From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Mar 24 12:09:01 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:09:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> Il 24/03/2009 9.11, Lee Corbin ha scritto: > But to return to the subject at hand, should brain-washing > techniques be used against *our* captives, i.e., the morally > depraved criminals who fall into our hands? For example, the > animal who killed those four Oakland Police Officer---should > "Clockwork Orange" techniques be tried against him? > I myself doubt it---but only because the techniques may be > too non-humanitarian and because they probably (in 2009) cannot > be made to work well enough. What is the difference from killing someone and altering his/her mind (and maybe body) in a permanent and deep way against his/her will? In both you have practically erased the person and supplanted him with another person that you (intelligently) designed to suit your standards. He/she is not more a subject but an object of action. Then, having redesigned him, are you responsible and accountable for his/her actions? Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 13:02:36 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:02:36 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: <032e01c9ac78$5a8f17f0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> <032e01c9ac78$5a8f17f0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: 2009/3/24 Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) : > If you think nature as the simulated universe in BSG, then the ultimate > explanation IS in fact supernatural, isn't it? > To BSG's humans and cylons it is. > But to outside viewers, that final scene pretty much gives it up. > That's my interpretation (for I have no way to know what the writers really > were thinking). For those simulated beings, there's no other way than the > supernatural explanation. It all depends on where you place your POV. There is nevertheless a distinction between fantasy and science fiction, and religion is a subset of the former, not the latter. It totally changes the story for me if the same wildly implausible events are attributed to a magic rather than a mysterious natural cause, and I count being in a simulation as a natural cause. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 13:03:54 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:03:54 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: 2009/3/24 Dave Sill : > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: >> >> Any other reasons why you think the writers didn't intend that the >> ultimate explanation was supernatural? > > It doesn't really matter what the writers intend. What matters is how > viewers interpret the end result. Fair enough. Any other clues in the series leading to the conclusion that the BSG universe was a simulation and/or that God and the angels were in fact AI's? -- Stathis Papaioannou From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 14:14:42 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:14:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:37 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > >> It's going to take at least ten tons of stuff landed on the moon for >> materials and living space per person. ?For a thousand people, that's >> ten thousand tons, or 10 million kg. ?If you try to do this with >> current rockets, and taking the cost to the moon as the same as to >> GEO, that' $20,000/kg x 10 million kg or $200 billion just for >> transport cost. > > I'm sorry. ?I thought I was clear. ?The one thousand moon workers > wouldn't go to the moon. ?They would perform their work by > teleoperation, employing hamster-size robots. ?How much then to get a > thousand hampsters and their miniaturized industrial combine to the > moon? We don't have teleporated robots of this sort, not to mention the speed of light delay problem. But if we did an they were there, what are you going to *do* with them? You can't just say ":mine the moon," the moon is effectively dirt. What chemical processes are you going to use? What is power budget? How are you going to make parts? I have seen a proposal to mine the moon to make silicon solar cells. It was by real process engineers. Took 20 years and 2 trillion dollars. I don't recall if it involved any people on the moon. Keithh > Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. ?Yo, > Bryan, care to comment? ?What basic tool set would my thousand > hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build > the moon base, and make more bots? ?Minimum mass; lunar regolith > starting materials;... > Best, Jeff Davis > > ?"Everything's hard till you know how to do it." > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Ray Charles > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 24 14:59:35 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:59:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and technological emigration References: <495D1AA0.5070208@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> Message-ID: <4A4C041817CB403EB30EA37BADF95A29@MyComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Henson" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Power sats and technological emigration > On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 12:33 PM, John David Galt > wrote: >>>>> It also only makes >>>>> sense for a traffic model of a million tons per year or more. >> >>>> I see a disconnect. >> >>> Why? The analysis is easy. We have to replace a minimum of 500 >>> GW/year for the next 30 years. That's a hundred 10 to 20 thousand ton >>> power sats per year. 1-2 million tons a year. >> >> Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but why do we need to replace >> 500 GW/year for 30 years? Do you expect that many existing power >> plants to break down, lose their fuel supplies, or be shut down for >> political reasons, or do you expect that much new demand for power? >> Such a forecast for any of these reasons, or even some of each, >> sounds farfetched to me. >> >> [Go ahead and quote me to list if you like.] > > http://www.afstrinity.com/worldoil.htm > > The world uses about 15 TW of energy in all forms. Between the > decline of fossil fuels and the need for more energy for countries > such as China and India, we need to replace or build new sources of > about the same size as we now have. If you replace 15 TW over 30 > years, that's 500 GW/year. The installation might be somewhat larger > if we want to put carbon back in the ground or use higher energy per > capita. > > It's a big market. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 15:03:20 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:03:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > Fair enough. Any other clues in the series leading to the conclusion > that the BSG universe was a simulation and/or that God and the angels > were in fact AI's? There were the virtual characters that lived with(in) some of the real characters. Mostly I just think there was sufficient ambiguity about the "mystical" and religious aspects that it wasn't necessary to believe in anything supernatural. -Dave From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 24 15:11:21 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:11:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and technological emigration References: <495D1AA0.5070208@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> Message-ID: <12883AC668CF4DFE8274E6B55B866CEC@MyComputer> "Keith Henson" > The world uses about 15 TW of energy in all forms. > [.] If you replace 15 TW over 30 years, that's 500 GW/year. Or we could build 500 nuclear power plants a year, a big job certainly but not as big as power satellites; so after 30 years 100% of our energy would come from nuclear fission. I'm not predicting that or advocating that, but if nothing else works out it beats the hell out of civilization collapse and billions freezing to death in the dark as some claim will happen is we don't start building power satellites right now. And don't tell me we'll run out of Uranium, we could always switch to breeders or use Thorium. Those technologies have been proven to have the ability to produce useful energy. Power satellites have not. John K Clark From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 24 15:31:36 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:31:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] punishment References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> Message-ID: <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> > What is the difference from killing someone and > altering his/her mind (and maybe body) in a > permanent and deep way against his/her will? Absolutely nothing, except that it's better public relations; it won't upset the anti capital punishment hand wringers quite so much. Personally I think some people are so evil that the best way to alter their mind is by placing a 13 cent bullet in their brain. John K Clark From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 24 16:56:15 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:56:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Tenser, said the Tensor In-Reply-To: <49C8986E.4060502@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090323183650.02645558@satx.rr.com> <49C8986E.4060502@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324115201.02430600@satx.rr.com> At 01:23 AM 3/24/2009 -0700, Lee wrote: >>Yes indeed. Something I try to urge on people who revere "ancient >>teachings" and "ancient wisdom" makes the same point: Yahweh was an >>*early, primitive* god, and the wise men and women of ancient >>India, China and Greece represent *young punks offering mostly >>uninformed guesses* about almost everything they address that isn't >>still self-evident and uncontroversial. > >Quite right. But maybe I'm missing something. Shouldn't >that be past tense? I.e., "the wise men... *were* young >punks offering mostly uniformed guesses"? No, because that is what they now represent to us. You can quite properly say, "In HAMLET, Shakespeare offers a ripping good tale of blood and mayhem to offset his boring poetry," even though the old guy's been gone these many years. Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 18:14:56 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:14:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <034e01c9ac7a$c53b1160$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> <49C8A192.1090101@optusnet.com.au> <034e01c9ac7a$c53b1160$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) wrote: > This would be the ultimate Simcity videogame, right? Only this game would > lead to something actually being built. I see a business model... Damn right, Henry. Bullseye! This is the killer app I've been waiting for. An internet-mediated venture -- like cooperative open source projects -- but fueled by greed, Crazy, feverish, gold-rush, conquer-the-world, megalomaniacal, time-tested, thrilling, glorious greed. Can you say the word "oligarch"? I've been mum on this for some time now. Watching and waiting and measuring my next move. (Burst of maniacal cackling.) Anyone interested in pursuing this as a proprietary for profit venture should contact me offlist for a private, secure discussion and pre-launch/implementation planning session. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 18:50:35 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:50:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. ?Yo, >> Bryan, care to comment? ?What basic tool set would my thousand >> hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build >> the moon base, and make more bots? ?Minimum mass; lunar regolith >> starting materials;... > > That really depends on the context. Absolutely. I was a bit coy with you. The design space --137 practical multivalued replicator design properties which may be grouped into 12 primary design dimensions in four principal categories : http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/Figures/5.5.JPG presents a challenge that I'm fond of comparing to the Gordian knot. Remember how Alexander solved that problem? Took out his sword and chopped it up. Refused to be constrained by imposed definitions of impossibility. That's the view I've adopted. Evaluating the design space for the "best" approach, and then working up a design -- these are paralyzing pre-conditions. Screw that. Go pure ad hoc. Pick an approach and go for it. Let the chips fall where they may. This is a winner take all venture. That's all as in ALL. As a race to the next stage of industrial production, it can easily boil down to the first one out of the starting blocks. Get enough of a lead before the rest of the world figures out the implications, and they'll never catch up. And, regarding design choices, if you can generate enough excitement in the global internet-connected "game space", you can promote competition among teams whose members have chosen different design approaches. I hope this doesn't offend your dedication to open-source values. "I don't have time to bleed." Best, Jeff Davis "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mahatma Gandhi From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 19:31:20 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:31:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > We don't have teleporated robots of this sort, Spirit and Opportunity. Give 'em general purpose manipulators (ie hands). > not to mention the > speed of light delay problem. Three seconds. Makes things interesting. Hardly a show stopper. > ?But if we did an they were there, what > are you going to *do* with them? I don't want to be rude, but aren't you being just a bit obstinate? I'm good with the notion that as a real, accomplished engineering professional, you feel compelled to thresh this recreational futurism with a reality-based flail, but could you try to be a bit more supportive. > You can't just say ":mine the moon," "Mine the moon." Hmmmm. That wasn't very hard. > the moon is effectively dirt. As is the Earth. But as Freitas lays out in KSRM "Perhaps the most important message of the Fallacy of the Substrate is that the replicative capacity of a replicator cannot be defined by specifying the replicator in isolation from its surroundings. Replicative capacity can only be defined by simultaneously specifying both the replicator and the input substrate upon which the replicator will be required to operate." Lunar Regolith Simulant Materials Workshop http://est.msfc.nasa.gov/workshops/lrsm2005_program.html > ?What chemical processes are you going > to use? ?What is power budget? ?How are you going to make parts? See above. Your objections seem more about obstinacy than genuine obstacles. I have tremendous respect for you, but continue to hope for more constructve inputs. Best, Jeff Davis "We're a band of higher primates stuck on the surface of an atmosphere-hazed dirtball. I can associate with that. I certainly can't identify with which patch of the dirtball I currently happen to be on, and which monkey tribe happens to reside therein. Only by taking the big view we can make it a common dream, and then a reality. It's worth it." Eugen Leitl From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 19:36:04 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:36:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Google improves search results Message-ID: Trying to better Wolfram already? Announced here: More and better search refinements Starting today, we're deploying a new technology that can better understand associations and concepts related to your search, and one of its first applications lets us offer you even more useful related searches (the terms found at the bottom, and sometimes at the top, of the search results page). For example, if you search for [principles of physics], our algorithms understand that "angular momentum," "special relativity," "big bang" and "quantum mechanic" are related terms that could help you find what you need. Longer snippets When you do a search on Google, each result we give you starts with a dark blue title and is followed by a few lines of text (what we call a "snippet"), which together give you an idea of what each page is about. To give more context, the snippet shows how the words of your query appear on the page by highlighting them in bold. When you enter a longer query, with more than three words, regular-length snippets may not give you enough information and context. In these situations, we now increase the number of lines in the snippet to provide more information and show more of the words you typed in the context of the page. ---------------- A good test to see the effect is to do two searches in two tabs and compare the results, side by side. Search for earth's rotation axis and earth's rotation axis tilt and distance from sun -------------- Looks like a good improvement to me. :) BillK From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Mar 24 19:57:00 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:57:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space In-Reply-To: References: <668033.90292.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49C93B0C.1040604@libero.it> Il 24/03/2009 8.05, Jeff Davis ha scritto: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Tom Nowell wrote: >> Jeff, whenever we've asked Mr Henson why he favours massive earth-launch as soon as possible, he's always pointed to the time taken to set up lunar mining or asteroid mining facilities, and how they'd probably add a significant amount to start-up costs. Keith is of the opinion we need solar power satellites in 10-15 years, which means getting the whole project under way NOW. > > Yes, but he's also said that the space elevator isn't happening, and > orion, though apparently feasible, has a BIG public relations problem. > And laser launch is notional, with zero infrastructure. So we're > left with proven conventional launch methods. Big uns. Lotsa big > uns. Well, if what Brian Wang wrote is correct, there are the technology to build fiber of 9-10 GPa now/few months, with the real possibility to move to industrial production in few years. We need not less than 50-60 GPa for a non-tapered cable for the SE and, IIRC, 30 GPa for a realistic tapered one. Given that carbon nanotubes have strenght from 70 to 200 GPa, there is space to big improvements. But with only 10 GPa we would be able to built a SkyHook (not so good as a SE but better than nothing). And to be precise, we could not be able to build a SE for the Earth with 10 GPa but, for the Moon and Mars, 10 GPA would be good enough. As usual, different problems, different technologic solutions. But, given the pace of progress, it is not so improbable that we have materials with more than 50 GPa between 2014 and 2019. At that point, we could be perfectly able to build the SE and after this the SPS very faster and have it done before than using rocket launches with the current technology and starting now. I think Mr. Henson is a bit too much worried about Peak Oil and what think could do to our civilization. His react like the man that knowing that the near river will probably flood his house start digging and building a dam moving the earth with a shovel and don't think that could do it better building a wheelbarrow to move the earth. He is captived in the "There is no time, I/We/Them must act immediately or the sky will fall" mindset. Mirco From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 21:18:20 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:18:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space In-Reply-To: <49C93B0C.1040604@libero.it> References: <668033.90292.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <49C93B0C.1040604@libero.it> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:57 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > I think Mr. Henson is a bit too much worried about Peak Oil and what think > could do to our civilization. His react like the man that knowing that the > near river will probably flood his house start digging and building a dam > moving the earth with a shovel and don't think that could do it better > building a wheelbarrow to move the earth. He is captived in the "There is no > time, I/We/Them must act immediately or the sky will fall" mindset. I'm inclined to agree, Mirco, but who can be sure? I personally think peak oil is wrong. And that the energy shortage "problem" will, despite the hand wringing and doomsaying, succumb to pedestrian market forces and unanticipated new tech (silicon-based tech -- PV and chip electronics -- is godawful expensive, only justified by the HUGE payoff. The huge expense leads to the false -- momentarily axiomatic -- presumption that it has to be that way), all it would take is a bit of a breakthrough resulting in PV on plastic sheeting only slightly more expensive than the plastic bags you get at the supermarket, and the whole "energy shortage" thing evaporates, like it never existed (and the global warming thing with it). http://energypriorities.com/entries/2005/04/konarka_solar.php Still, Keith could be right. He's no dilletante, and lots of other smart folks agree as well. If he's right, then his urgency is compelling. Gotta respect that. Still, I remain unconvinced. Haven't heard the fat lady sing yet. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From kanzure at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 22:13:35 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:13:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70903241513h2e0bcde1q990b67707267decd@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: >>> Sure be nice to know how much that mini combine would weigh. ?Yo, >>> Bryan, care to comment? ?What basic tool set would my thousand >>> hamster-sized robots need in order to process the raw materials, build >>> the moon base, and make more bots? ?Minimum mass; lunar regolith >>> starting materials;... >> >> That really depends on the context. > > Absolutely. ?I was a bit coy with you. ?The design space --137 > practical multivalued replicator design properties which may be > grouped into 12 primary design dimensions in four principal categories > : > http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/Figures/5.5.JPG > > presents a challenge that I'm fond of comparing to the Gordian knot. > Remember how Alexander solved that problem? ?Took out his sword and > chopped it up. ?Refused to be constrained by imposed definitions of > impossibility. ?That's the view I've adopted. ?Evaluating the design > space for the "best" approach, and then working up a design -- these > are paralyzing pre-conditions. ?Screw that. ?Go pure ad hoc. ?Pick an > approach and go for it. ?Let the chips fall where they may. ?This is a > winner take all venture. ?That's all as in ALL. Under what authority were those 137 properties designed? This reeks of bullshitting. There's no master data set of all possible manufacturing processes. And I have yet to find a partial data set of said manufacturing processes (except perhaps the recent one I sent to the list re: thermodynamic analyses), which would be somewhat useful in a slightly different way. But anyway, there are certain properties of self-replication that need to be well-defined, otherwise you're just flinging poo like a monkey. This is why Freitas put a significant amount of time thinking about 'vitamins'. http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/e4c375acce772250 http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/113d5a39898e061a?hide_quotes=no#msg_2000b6278e1af0ea http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/4ff7a92e2425dde2 http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM53.html#536 http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/5.6.htm Why is an ad hoc design not as interesting- or indeed why have all of the current ad hoc designed systems so completely failed to do self-replication? By picking up a single pebble, or grain of sand on the beach, you do not completely isolate the tides and the geological processes that led to that grain of sand; similarly, if you buy a part from the hardware store, you probably know very little about what into making that part. By just randomly starting at some place, such as 'at this part', means that you- ideally- are going to go traverse the linear chain of processes that made that part; however, in most cases these are commercial businesses and aren't too happy about a fellow reverse engineering every square inch of their facilities. In some cases, there are craftsmen who still make parts by hand, who are still interested in community involvement, and perhaps there are still handcrafted versions of every item that we see out there, and then perhaps it would be a legitimate and comprehensive task to go find all of those skillsmen and learn their trade for each item that they make? That's an intriguing prospect, but there's no guarantee that you're ever going to be able to find those people, let alone the subset of those people that might be working with manufacturing processes that would be useful in self-replication, and whether or not the time that you invest will at all reveal to you in a useful order the set of processes that could become a comprehensive whole of a self-replicating system. That's the thing- it either self-replicates or it doesn't, none of this "it almost self-replicates!" nonsense. How could it be partially doing something that it's not doing? How can you have a 36% of a 'self'? It's a binary thing- it's either within the limits of uncertainty or it's not, and if it by definition is 'partial' then it's not going to be near any of the error bars of the target. I don't know if we've ever had our pow-wow here on the list about whether or not partial self-replication is worth our time, or the different thinking going into that, so if anyone wants to raise up a few comments, that'd be neat. Anywho, time to quote Freitas. """ Consider, for example, the problem of parts closure. Imagine that the entire factory and all of its machines are broken down into their component parts. If the original factory cannot fabricate every one of these items, then parts closure does not exist and the system is not fully self-replicating . .... The fraction of total necessary resources that must be supplied by some external agency has been dubbed the "Tukey Ratio" (Heer, 1980). Originally intended simply as an informal measure of basic materials closure, the most logical form of the Tukey Ratio is computed by dividing the mass of the external supplies per unit time interval by the total mass of all inputs necessary to achieve self-replication. (This is actually the inverse of the original version of the ratio.) In a fully self-replicating system with no external inputs, the Tukey Ratio thus would be zero (0%). It has been pointed out that if a system is "truly isolated in the thermodynamic sense and also perhaps in a more absolute sense (no exchange of information with the environment) then it cannot be self-replicating without violating the laws of thermodynamics" (Heer,1980). While this is true, it should be noted that a system which achieves complete "closure" is not "closed" or "isolated" in the classical sense. Materials, energy, and information still flow into the system which is thermodynamically "open"; these flows are of indigenous origin and may be managed autonomously by the SRS itself without need for direct human intervention. Closure theory. For replicating machine systems, complete closure is theoretically quite plausible; no fundamental or logical impossibilities have yet been identified. Indeed, in many areas automata theory already provides relatively unambiguous conclusions. For example, the theoretical capability of machines to perform "universal computation" and "universal construction" can be demonstrated with mathematical rigor (Turing, 1936; von Neumann, 1966; see also sec. 5.2), so parts assembly closure is certainly theoretically possible. An approach to the problem of closure in real engineering-systems is to begin with the issue of parts closure by asking the question: can a set of machines produce all of its elements? If the manufacture of each part requires, on average, the addition of >1 new parts to product it, then an infinite number of parts are required in the initial system and complete closure cannot be achieved. On the other hand, if the mean number of new parts per original part is <1, then the design sequence converges to some finite ensemble of elements and bounded replication becomes possible. The central theoretical issue is: can a real machine system itself produce and assemble all the kinds of parts of which it is comprised? In our generalized terrestrial industrial economy manned by humans the answer clearly is yes, since "the set of machines which make all other machines is a subset of the set of all machines" (Freitas et al.,1981). In space a few percent of total system mass could feasibly be supplied from Earth-based manufacturers as "vitamin parts." Alternatively, the system could be designed with components of very limited complexity (Heer, 1980). The minimum size of a self-sufficient "machine economy" remains unknown. """ That last part might be a hint towards future (as in, current- as in stuff you can do today) analyses, towards figuring out the minimum 'size' of a self-sufficient 'machine economy'. Anyway, reprap went (started!) pure ad-hoc, wanted to do self-replication, and then lied to the NY Times and so on. I'm still upset about that I guess. In truth it began as a goo squirter- but where did the idea of self-replication jump in? Does anyone know the history of this specifically? Now, you could legitimately claim that I have not seen an ad hoc design process for a non-goo-squirting self-replicating machine (that may or may not involve goo squirting in it at some point, of course, just not "let's build a goo squirter and call it self-replicating")- and so if you showed me plans for an ad hoc design process for a self-replicating machine, I'd definitely look over it and put a lot of thinks into it. > As a race to the next stage of industrial production, it can easily > boil down to the first one out of the starting blocks. ?Get enough of > a lead before the rest of the world figures out the implications, and > they'll never catch up. ?And, regarding design choices, if you can > generate enough excitement in the global internet-connected "game > space", ?you can promote competition among teams whose members have > chosen different design approaches. I am not against competition, but I would express caution when comparing different design decisions, because some decisions are made for totally different reasons, like in the case of reprap- it's not really about replication, for instance- and comparing it to somebody who is designing an artificial synthetic organic lifeform chemistry out of, say, silicon. So while I'm not going to get worked up about the existence of alternative designs, I'm going to very clearly make a big stink when you're not actually working on self-replication, or when you make erroneous claims about the capabilities of your machine :-). A friendly big stink, of course, but still, a stink. I don't know if you're referring to the SKDB design methodology for self-replication when you say evaluating a solution space for a 'best' design. There's a difference between evaluating the possibility space for *actual* designs versus selecting from those actual designs and finding the best among them. I agree that finding the 'best' among them at this point is a non-starter-- but at this point, we don't even have preliminary designs for self-replicating systems, just a lot of hand-waving. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From dagonweb at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 22:45:54 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:45:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <800594.44788.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <800594.44788.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > >... It's us against them, and those of *us* who don't realize > > that---those idiots among us---are just helping us dig > > our own graves. > You equate and confuse (a) people who would like criminals rehabilitated through humane ways and (b) me. I'd love to see all criminals rehabilitated through humane means. I even think trying so is cost effective. I do not think punishment works. I do not think the death penalty works. I think that a retributive or draconian society has cots far outweighing the benefits. I prefer to live in a tolerant, humane society. Furthermore, I do not agree with many of the morals of the society I live in. In fact, whereas I would loathe a pedosexual rapist who killed a 9-year old to avoid discovery after having sodomized the child (extreme case) I have seen cases of (extreme case) a 13 year old girl having a relationship with a 35 year old man, in which she took initiative, seduced the man, was clearly and unambiguously her intellectual superior and exploited the man as lifestock. And thats just the current taboo du jour, pedosexuality. Lets not get into US copyright laws, iranian laws on homosexuality, singapore laws on cannabis, and other such historical stupidities. Let me be plain - I have no problem whatsoever to assess an animal as dangerous and put it in humane conditions, in a cage. If giger aliens were to travel to earth, I would be all for them locked in a corrosive steel prison in perpetuity. I would be against them being incinerated, solely because they were the evilest species in existence. However if a person or animal were an acute danger to the innocent we are forced to respond. I simply wouldn't trust a 'Shoggoth' in that same containment - such a monster would imply an acute threat and I would be all for exterminating it. I am against the death penalty. I am against torture. I am for trying to rehabilitate. But if the cost of rehabilitation is insurmountable, society has the obligation to house, incarcerate and care for this wretched human, in a manner that is not far below the level of care which we give our geriatric patients. If society is a dirt poor third world nation, treat the worst of criminals in about the same way as the worst or poorest off in that society are treated. Alas, this is a opinion, and I cannot imprint my ideas of what makes a human an enlightened soul or a merciless bastard upon any here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 22:53:07 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:53:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> Message-ID: > > Absolutely nothing, except that it's better public relations; it won't > upset > the anti capital punishment hand wringers quite so much. Personally I think > some people are so evil that the best way to alter their mind is by placing > a 13 cent bullet in their brain. And I say someone with this opinion is a victim of hollywood. People are not evil. Evil does not exist. I agree, many can be sociopaths, sadists, monsters. Say a human does something horrendous - kill another human alive and eat it while still alive. That is monstrous by any human standard. However if a white siberian tiger would do it, it would be an accident, and we would keep it alive, because white siberian tigers are rare. The tiger isn't evil. But it is dangerous, so we lock it in a cage, feed it, give it some articles to play with and if it gets restless and starts to eat its own tail, we actually douse it in huge doses of prozac. I propose treating the worst of humans as we do the best of animals and no worse. Let the Chinese and Iranians treat the worst of humans like they treat livestock. We are not Chinese or Iranians or other assorted barbarian scum. Democratic modern western society is best (so far) and I assert that respect and sane detachment is a part for that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 22:57:37 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:57:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the US-central free market paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a worldwide economic meltdown (and more to come). It is like finally looking at the danger of driving in a specific type of automobile after it bursts into fire spontaneously. Well, here is solid proof something's not right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at comcast.net Tue Mar 24 23:17:01 2009 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:17:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision Conference In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C969ED.2010705@comcast.net> Yes, That was a very fun event. Of course since models of spirit / consciousness is my favorite topic the discussions on that were great. They started out a bit naive, evidence of such smart people being in extreme isolation within such a religion and having all these ideas on their own, and never being in an environment to develop and critically share such ideas. But instantly all these people, once they started communicating and sharing at this first of a kind transhumanist / religion conference, they advanced extremely fast. Many of them are now starting to 'canonizing' their beliefs and favored models of spiritual stuff in general theories of mind topics like this one: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88 Mormon teachings have many similarities to modern views of mind, in particular the theories that are proving to have the most scientific consensus. (see http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/81) They are also starting to 'canonizing' these comparisons in similar topics more specific to religion like this one: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/97 Of course this is all just getting started and still a bit elementary. But I bet in a year or more, the understanding, theories, and ideas of this rapidly growing number of people will be very advanced, and very compatible with modern scientific and transhumanist thinking about the mind. You know, what uploading (transfigurism) and all that will be like and how we might achieve such... It will be very exciting to finally see religious doctrins accelerating into the future, being made compatible with science, and so on, instead of being limited to and stuck in some kind of stuck in stone old book traditional past. And also for religious people, for the first time, not waiting for God to reveal everything and / or come down and save them, bet getting involved and engineering heaven for themselves, all according to their now progressing faith and hopes that grew out of their great legacy. At least that's my take on it all. Brent Allsop John Grigg wrote: > I attended the "Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and > Engineering Vision" Conference, that was held at the Claremont > Graduate University in Claremont, California. It was great to see my > Mormon Transhumanist Association friends and engage in some friendly > debates. > > This is the video footage of the event... > > http://pc2009.confreaks.com/ > > John : ) > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 24 23:25:10 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:25:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> At 11:57 PM 3/24/2009 +0100, Dagon wrote: >Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the >US-central free market >paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a worldwide economic >meltdown (and more >to come). Yes, but as we've read here and elsewhere, the reply from free market advocates is that the current USian system is *not* free market, it's almost the antithesis. On that view, it's a corrupt consortium of public officials largely buffered against consequences, ruthless tax gatherers without sense or pity, government largely by rich lawyers funded lavishly by special interests in exchange for favors, voters with their hands out for unearned benefits, and above and behind it all immense industrial and military oligopolies with little self-control yet able to command the resources of the nation without any serious internal or external checks or balances. And yet the oligopolies are what many people both in the US and elsewhere think capitalism *is*, and it seems to be what ideologues tend to champion against horrid "socialist" alternatives (especially top down direction or supervision by elected deputies or their civil servant class operatives). But no, it's actually the travesty pilloried and reviled in the bible of honorable capitalism, ATLAS SHRUGGED: a cabal of facile unprincipled shits lacking in reason or self-knowledge, unwilling to contribute but eager to grab and retain what they can, seeing themselves as an aristocracy of entitlement. Maybe so, maybe so. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 24 23:41:29 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:41:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision Conference In-Reply-To: <49C969ED.2010705@comcast.net> References: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> <49C969ED.2010705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324182739.0267a1c8@satx.rr.com> At 05:17 PM 3/24/2009 -0600, Brent wrote: >religious people, for the first time, not waiting for God to reveal >everything and / or come down and save them, bet getting involved >and engineering heaven for themselves, all according to their now >progressing faith and hopes that grew out of their great legacy. This is an encouraging development, but one I would hope is a transitional stage leading to escape from the bogosity intrinsic to all theistic religions (however admirable many of their adherents). I do have to ask: what is "their great legacy"? From what I've read, their great legacy was a highly oppressive patriarchal top-down system based on a colossal lie, with, for the longest time, racist exclusion of blacks, sexist sequestration of women to those with most power, followed by apparent renunciation of this unpleasantness for purely political motives, and with lesser assaults on reason such as the absurd concoctions concerning American prehistory and the status of native Americans... This looks to me like a sorry legacy that should fill adherents with shame and a wish to renounce it. So what am I missing here? They support family life, perhaps? So does any moral system based on empathy and common sense; I don't think any group gets special brownie points for not beating or abandoning or drugging their kids, murdering each other, or walking on their hind legs. Damien Broderick From pjmanney at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 00:25:44 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:25:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <29666bf30903241725i2760f092mdbb0107dd786cc3d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > And yet the oligopolies are what many people both in the US and elsewhere think capitalism *is*, and it seems to be what ideologues tend to champion against horrid "socialist" alternatives (especially top down direction or supervision by elected deputies or their civil servant class operatives). But no, it's actually the travesty pilloried and reviled in the bible of honorable capitalism, ATLAS SHRUGGED: a cabal of facile unprincipled shits lacking in reason or self-knowledge, unwilling to contribute but eager to grab and retain what they can, seeing themselves as an aristocracy of entitlement. Maybe so, maybe so. _______________ Oligarchy is oligarchy. Doesn't matter what "ism" you stack in front of it. Somebody screws somebody else. Coincidentally, my daughter is studying the American Revolution and was watching the musical 1776 this afternoon. Your post made me think of the song that was censored from the movie version by Richard Nixon himself (and only added back in recent years in the director's cut DVD) -- "Cool, Cool, Considerate Men": John Dickinson: ? Mr. Hancock, why don't you join us in our minuet?... Be careful, sir. History will brand him [John Adams] and his followers as traitors! John Hancock: Traitors to what, Mr. Dickinson ? the British Crown, or the British half-crown? Fortunately there are not enough men of property in America to dictate policy. Dickinson: Perhaps not, but don?t forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor. And that is why they will follow us ? Chorus of Conservatives: ? to the right ever to the right Never to the left Forever to the right... Within 50 years, the balance of power shifted to Dickinson and his ilk, as they do in any maturing society, for his reason above. And the dance continues. PJ From jonkc at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 25 00:37:16 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:37:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] punishment References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> Message-ID: <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> Dagon Gmail > someone with this opinion is a victim of hollywood. > People are not evil. Evil does not exist. It's true that the word "evil" has totally has fallen out of favor, it's not trendy at all; it's way way out of fashion, everybody on Facebook would agree. But when somebody tortures a sweet little kid so horribly that he wans nothing more than to die I think the word "evil" may still retain some meaning. >if a white siberian tiger would do it [kill] it would be an accident Agreed. > and we would keep it alive, because white siberian tigers are rare. Precisely. But unfortunately people who think it's a good idea to torture little children are not rare, they are not an endangered species; as a result we need a way to deal with them. I can tell you right now that there is no prefect solution; the best we can hope for is a pretty good solution. Pretty good. > The tiger isn't evil. But it is dangerous, so we lock it in a cage But the cage is pours. For everyone you point to that has been unjustly executed I could point to a hundred that has committed murder AFTER they were convicted for their murder; Convicted! Let me repeat that, CONVICTED and AFTER! To my mind that is an equal failure in the law than an innocent man being executed. > I propose treating the worst of humans as we do the best of animals I agree. John K Clark From brent.allsop at comcast.net Wed Mar 25 00:57:33 2009 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:57:33 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision Conference In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324182739.0267a1c8@satx.rr.com> References: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> <49C969ED.2010705@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324182739.0267a1c8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49C9817D.4040005@comcast.net> Damian, Of course that is the way you, and most higher than average intelligence people see it. But a lot of people, especially lots of women, when they here something like: "highly oppressive patriarchal top-down system" they ask: 'where do I sign up?' Until we have true ability to rewire some of these primitive less than intelligent animalistic tendencies in the common person, things will remain problematic, as long as we keep doing the same old same old trarnshumanism is still doing. (i.e. ignoring the less than common man). Many people in this world just aren't as intelligent and self sufficient as the few of us transhumanists are. They don't have the brains, or perhaps just the interest, required to see how important transhumanist and such ideas are. They just value different things than we do. And there is no problem with that right? Because of their differences, they excel where we fail. And THIS is where mormonism has a great legacy, especially compared to the miserable failure to be able to organize and work together the transhumanist movement has struggled with forever. The transhumanist movement, in the past, just hasn't had what is required to bring the transhumanist message to, in a way that it can help the real common person, including the less than common. That's one of the reasons I like to call myself a Mormon Transhumanist Atheists. Not only do I just want everyone to get along, and recognize that we don't all have to be just chocolate, or strawbery, but also that the more we all work together, especially doing well organized missionary like work to the masses of common and less than common people, the faster we will usher in the millennium, um, I mean the singularity. The goal is to definitely be a transition to something with less primitive faults, and to help them with this, but not to in any way limit diversity of desires, hopes, and beliefs, or expect them to be just like us. We'll never get anywhere as long as we have this abandon and leave them all behind as long as they don't want to do things my way attitude. We can always do things faster being well organized and working together, especially enabling and pulling in the less than common person, than we can do it alone right? Brent Damien Broderick wrote: > At 05:17 PM 3/24/2009 -0600, Brent wrote: > >> religious people, for the first time, not waiting for God to reveal >> everything and / or come down and save them, bet getting involved and >> engineering heaven for themselves, all according to their now >> progressing faith and hopes that grew out of their great legacy. > > This is an encouraging development, but one I would hope is a > transitional stage leading to escape from the bogosity intrinsic to > all theistic religions (however admirable many of their adherents). I > do have to ask: what is "their great legacy"? From what I've read, > their great legacy was a highly oppressive patriarchal top-down system > based on a colossal lie, with, for the longest time, racist exclusion > of blacks, sexist sequestration of women to those with most power, > followed by apparent renunciation of this unpleasantness for purely > political motives, and with lesser assaults on reason such as the > absurd concoctions concerning American prehistory and the status of > native Americans... This looks to me like a sorry legacy that should > fill adherents with shame and a wish to renounce it. So what am I > missing here? They support family life, perhaps? So does any moral > system based on empathy and common sense; I don't think any group gets > special brownie points for not beating or abandoning or drugging their > kids, murdering each other, or walking on their hind legs. > > Damien Broderick > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From crwbot at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 01:46:46 2009 From: crwbot at gmail.com (Christopher Whipple) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:46:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist architects taken in by Madoff (WSJ) Message-ID: <123db6100903241846o3cfa6988vcc96ccbe6a84f05e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/24/artists-who-design-i.html [Arakawa and Madeline Gins'] work based loosely on a movement known as "transhumanism," is premised on the idea that people degenerate and die in part because they live in spaces that are too comfortable. The artists' solution: construct abodes that leave people disoriented, challenged and feeling anything but comfortable. They build buildings with no doors inside. They place rooms far apart. They put windows near the ceiling or near the floor. Between rooms are sloping, bumpy moonscape-like floors designed to throw occupants off balance. These features, they argue, stimulate the body and mind, thus prolonging life. 'You become like a baby,' says Mr. Arakawa... A typical apartment has three or four rooms in the shapes of either a cylinder, a cube, or a sphere. Rooms surround a kitchen-living room combination with bumpy, undulating floors and floor-to-ceiling ladders and poles. Dozens of colors, from school-bus yellow to sky blue, cover the walls, ceilings and other surfaces. .... Death caused, in part, by comfort. That's a new one for me. -c. From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 17:39:18 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:39:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> The problem with the Oakland guy isn't all that he's violent. He had an antagonistic relationship with the police. Many do. If you think cops will imprison or kill you or your friends, you may feel morally obligated to dole out the fifteen cent bullets. Same with tribes committing genocide over limited space and resources. The problem would go unsolved if one simply prescribes Oxy-Happynol to the deranged and aggressive. To say someone is bad is usually indicating a poor set of strategies for solving problems and an unhealthy fixation on vengeance. I think until we can redesign society, mind control is the best we can do to keep our uncivilized billions from obliterating one another. Unfortunately, the puppet masters are also uncivilized. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 01:56:10 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:56:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > >> We don't have teleporated robots of this sort, > > Spirit and Opportunity. ?Give 'em general purpose manipulators (ie hands). Ok, and then what do you do with the hands? >> not to mention the >> speed of light delay problem. > > Three seconds. ?Makes things interesting. ?Hardly a show stopper. > >> ?But if we did an they were there, what >> are you going to *do* with them? > > I don't want to be rude, but aren't you being just a bit obstinate? > I'm good with the notion that as a real, accomplished engineering > professional, you feel compelled to thresh this recreational futurism > with a reality-based flail, but could you try to be a bit more > supportive. If this is about "recreational futurism" and unrelated to reality I should quit responding and try to find another mailing list. I recently dropped off a list for that reason. >> You can't just say ":mine the moon," > > "Mine the moon." ? ?Hmmmm. ?That wasn't very hard. > >> the moon is effectively dirt. > > As is the Earth. Look I have worked all over the engineering profession, exploration, mining, extractive metallurgy, i.e., milling ore and extracting metals, copper and aluminum smelters, and oil refining to name a few. We DON'T mine dirt. Geological processes have concentrated metals. We mine copper down to about half a percent because it is so useful and the energy needed to concentrate it is relatively small. (The main power draw is the ball mills and they draw in the range of a 10 kWh/ton.) With lunar materials you might substitute aluminum for the conductors and fiberglass for PVC insulation. But that means you have to reduce aluminum and draw it into wires. I have a decent understanding of the wet chemistry needed to produced reasonably pure aluminum oxide from "dirt." You have to recycle the reagents especially the water. Then you have to reduce the aluminum. All the processes new and old use up carbon. Since there is virtually none on the moon, you have to recycle carbon oxides back into solid carbon. I know how to do that as well. But we are already talking mind boggling complications, a chemical plant with more complexity than an oil refinery and a set of weaving machines to insulate the wire. >But as Freitas lays out in KSRM > > "Perhaps the most important message of the Fallacy of the Substrate is > that the replicative capacity of a replicator cannot be defined by > specifying the replicator in isolation from its surroundings. > Replicative capacity can only be defined by simultaneously specifying > both the replicator and the input substrate upon which the replicator > will be required to operate." Does this tell you anything useful? If so, what? > Lunar Regolith Simulant Materials Workshop > http://est.msfc.nasa.gov/workshops/lrsm2005_program.html Read though a bunch of them. No serious progress I can see since the late 70s. These people are not making stuff useful to making more robots. >> ?What chemical processes are you going >> to use? ?What is power budget? ?How are you going to make parts? > > See above. ?Your objections seem more about obstinacy than genuine obstacles. > I have tremendous respect for you, but continue to hope for more > constructve inputs. > Best, Jeff Davis > > "We're a band of higher primates stuck on the surface > of an atmosphere-hazed dirtball. I can associate with > that. I certainly can't identify with which patch of the dirtball I > currently happen to be on, and which monkey tribe happens to reside > therein. I have given a lot of thought to Easter Island. The descendants of the 20 people who landed there were doomed. If an immortal with all the knowledge of today had been among them, could he have prevented the disaster that befell those people? The environment was much easier to work with than the moon. The population peaked out at about 20,000 before falling to perhaps1000. If you can propose a technical path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would be most interested. It's less hard than trying to build up an industry on the moon. Keith > Only by taking the big view we can make it a common > dream, and then a reality. It's worth it." > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Eugen Leitl > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 25 02:35:20 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:35:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> At 06:56 PM 3/24/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: >If you can propose a technical >path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >be most interested. Hunt down and kill all the rats. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 03:15:09 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:45:09 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [wta-talk] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903242014x24ef0292h7e223019f4a7c149@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903210228k4b470432ofb8889923a67e8ca@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903242014x24ef0292h7e223019f4a7c149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903242015s46a4add3y6ea441a19981b46a@mail.gmail.com> (I actually meant this to go to exi-chat) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Emlyn Date: 2009/3/25 Subject: Re: [wta-talk] Economy: "The Big Takeover" To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List 2009/3/21 John Grigg : > "The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How > Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution" > > http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print An interesting article, but shrill. I'd be more interested in people who wrote this stuff before the crash. I'm also disturbed by the way people are equating "they broke the financial system" with "they broke the world". Money isn't the world. It's not even really interesting. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From lcorbin at rawbw.com Wed Mar 25 05:35:57 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:35:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> Message-ID: <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> Mirco (painlord2k at libero.it) wrote: > Il 24/03/2009 9.11, Lee Corbin ha scritto: > >> But to return to the subject at hand, should brain-washing >> techniques be used against *our* captives, i.e., the morally >> depraved criminals who fall into our hands? For example, the >> animal who killed those four Oakland Police Officer---should >> "Clockwork Orange" techniques be tried against him? > >> I myself doubt it---but only because the techniques may be >> too non-humanitarian and because they probably (in 2009) cannot >> be made to work well enough. > > What is the difference from killing someone and altering his/her mind > (and maybe body) in a permanent and deep way against his/her will? However a change is effected does not affect the identity issue. *I* deciding suddenly to become a missionary and preach in Africa isn't all that different from you sending some nanotech into my brain to effect the same change. (My deliberate use of "effect" vs. "affect" is for the enlightenment of non-native English speakers, as well as for some others who are ignorant of English, or at least how she is spoke.) Note that NONE of what I wrote above addresses the *propriety* of making said changes; of course we must disapprove of you doing this to me while making no protest against a natural development in my own personality in this same direction. > In both you have practically erased the person and supplanted him with > another person that you (intelligently) designed to suit your standards. I dispute your contention that someone has become all that different because of a change of heart. People change all the time, sometimes in deep ways. But since almost all of their memories remain unaffected, they're clearly the same people. (At least their friends, children, wives, relatives, and the police think so---everyone thinks so, except some amateur philosophers who have unfortunately thought about this, but not thought about it long enough or well enough.) > He/she is not more a subject but an object of action. Then, having > redesigned him, are you responsible and accountable for his/her actions? I would say "yes!". If *you* decide to have a change of heart against your landlord and go kill him, that's your responsibility. But if you do so at the instigation of some nanoware I unleash in your direction, clearly it's my responsibility. In the former case, of course you would be punished, while in the latter case, I. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Wed Mar 25 05:41:15 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:41:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tenser, said the Tensor In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324115201.02430600@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <5BD310BB51E644309622625678394203@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090323183650.02645558@satx.rr.com> <49C8986E.4060502@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324115201.02430600@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49C9C3FB.7020201@rawbw.com> Damien writes >> Quite right. But maybe I'm missing something. Shouldn't >> that be past tense? I.e., "the wise men... *were* young >> punks offering mostly uniformed guesses"? > > No, because that is what they now represent to us. You can quite > properly say, "In HAMLET, Shakespeare offers a ripping good tale of > blood and mayhem to offset his boring poetry," even though the old guy's > been gone these many years. Tension, apprehension, and dissension have begun all right, but oh well, not about this, I suppose. Thanks for the explanation. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Wed Mar 25 06:02:41 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:02:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Chad writes > The problem with the Oakland guy isn't all that he's violent. He had an > antagonistic relationship with the police. My god. I suppose that you'd claim wolves aren't violent towards cattle, it's just that they have a natural antagonistic relationship with them. This is a tendentious use of language if I ever saw one. Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, they just have an acquisitive nature towards their financial accounts? > Many do. If you think cops > will imprison or kill you or your friends, you may feel morally > obligated to dole out the fifteen cent bullets. Somehow, I simply doubt that this guy was just trying to make a statement. He was trying to get away, and these cops were in his way. You're very likely an enemy of our whole society if you think that he was morally obligated to start shooting. Is that what you would have done? Is that what you will do the next time you see a cop car trying to pull you over? No? Why not? > Same with tribes committing genocide over limited space and resources. Actually, I like that. Here, you are quite right, in my opinion. The gangs are trying to take over from us, and they don't see anything wrong with genocide. As for me, I too see nothing wrong with *our* perpetrating genocide against them. So---here is the big question for you: if people like me want to eliminate the gangs, and the gangs want to eliminate people like me who abide under our laws, whose side are you on? > The problem would go unsolved if one simply prescribes Oxy-Happynol to > the deranged and aggressive. > > To say someone is bad is usually indicating a poor set of strategies for > solving problems and an unhealthy fixation on vengeance. Well, merely saying someone is "bad" is not very informative, true. But it does go part way towards expressing an attitude. I think murderous dangerous animals like that Oakland shooter need to be hunted down and slaughtered. Somehow, I gather that you have more sympathy for the Oakland killer who slaughtered the police officers than you would have if the tables were turned, and some police officer had killed four gang members. Am I right? > I think until we can redesign society, Of course, nobody can redesign society without making a total mess. Or do you think that someone can come along who is way, way smarter than Lenin, Pot Pol, Hitler, or Mao? Is it a case that redesigning societies has always failed, but only because the right guy didn't do it? > mind control is the best we can > do to keep our uncivilized billions from obliterating one another. > Unfortunately, the puppet masters are also uncivilized. Mind control is also mere science fiction. Lee From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 06:58:58 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 02:58:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903242358g823125fi4358e28534323f63@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/24 Dagon Gmail : > Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the US-central > free market > paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a worldwide economic meltdown (and > more > to come). ### Annoying fool. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:04:56 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 03:04:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903250004g26a146fbqb1bab88daa0a9fc1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:25 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Yes, but as we've read here and elsewhere, the reply from free market > advocates is that the current USian system is *not* free market, it's almost > the antithesis. > > On that view, it's a corrupt consortium of public officials largely buffered > against consequences, ruthless tax gatherers without sense or pity, > government largely by rich lawyers funded lavishly by special interests in > exchange for favors, voters with their hands out for unearned benefits, and > above and behind it all immense industrial and military oligopolies with > little self-control yet able to command the resources of the nation without > any serious internal or external checks or balances. > > And yet the oligopolies are what many people both in the US and elsewhere > think capitalism *is*, and it seems to be what ideologues tend to champion > against horrid "socialist" alternatives (especially top down direction or > supervision by elected deputies or their civil servant class operatives). > But no, it's actually the travesty pilloried and reviled in the bible of > honorable capitalism, ATLAS SHRUGGED: a cabal of facile unprincipled shits > lacking in reason or self-knowledge, unwilling to contribute but eager to > grab and retain what they can, seeing themselves as an aristocracy of > entitlement. Maybe so, maybe so. > ### You are my man, Damien! :) I mean, WTF - a few assholes get 800 billion dollars of our tax money and fools call that "capitalism"? This is what happens when capitalism is dead. Long live the state that giveth to its friends. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:10:21 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 03:10:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <29666bf30903241725i2760f092mdbb0107dd786cc3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324180442.02611e00@satx.rr.com> <29666bf30903241725i2760f092mdbb0107dd786cc3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903250010r2959bbe6wf94024fe0e14948e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:25 PM, PJ Manney wrote: > Oligarchy is oligarchy. ?Doesn't matter what "ism" you stack in front > of it. ?Somebody screws somebody else. > ### On the contrary, it matters a lot. When the masses hear thieves shouting "Catch the thief!" and stupidly believe every mendacious word, it makes only for more thieves in the future. Truth and precision in labeling matter a lot. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:28:09 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 03:28:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903250028o304d44a5m78aa85deb37f5588@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > > Actually, I like that. Here, you are quite right, in > my opinion. The gangs are trying to take over from us, > and they don't see anything wrong with genocide. As for > me, I too see nothing wrong with *our* perpetrating > genocide against them. So---here is the big question > for you: if people like me want to eliminate the gangs, ### - I am on your side, Lee! For the sake of computability, any ethical system must define an in-group, or at least a way of deriving an in-group from available data, otherwise the system is just a load of useless mess incapable of outputting directives on behavior. My current model excludes gang members who severely infringe on legitimate property claims from the in-group's protective privileges, so yes, disposing of them cheaply and efficiently is right and proper. Rafal > and the gangs want to eliminate people like me who > abide under our laws, whose side are you on? > From eschatoon at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 09:17:07 2009 From: eschatoon at gmail.com (Eschatoon Magic) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:17:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Parallels and Convergences: Mormon Thought and Engineering Vision Conference In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324182739.0267a1c8@satx.rr.com> References: <2d6187670903232316g2fd51deah2c16ecd7c28d9e22@mail.gmail.com> <49C969ED.2010705@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20090324182739.0267a1c8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1fa8c3b90903250217n7857683at5b145ab139481da@mail.gmail.com> Yes Damien, religious people have done all these bad things. But they have also done many good things, from Dante to Telihard, in our and other societies on the planet. Most of the high priests of all religions have been, of course, greedy bastards like the heads of all political organizations. What motivates them is, of course, power and money -- again, like every political organization. But many "average" religious people, the Sunday churchgoers (or synagogue, or mosque, or whatever) have been normal and good people attracted by the promise of something bigger and better -- and they have been motivated by religion to do their best to improve things and do some good. Let's not throw the baby away with the dirty water. I applaud the scientific religious renaissance of Mormon transhumanists. G. On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 05:17 PM 3/24/2009 -0600, Brent wrote: > >> religious people, for the first time, not waiting for God to reveal >> everything and / or come down and save them, bet getting involved and >> engineering heaven for themselves, all according to their now progressing >> faith and hopes that grew out of their great legacy. > > This is an encouraging development, but one I would hope is a transitional > stage leading to escape from the bogosity intrinsic to all theistic > religions (however admirable many of their adherents). I do have to ask: > what is "their great legacy"? From what I've read, their great legacy was a > highly oppressive patriarchal top-down system based on a colossal lie, with, > for the longest time, racist exclusion of blacks, sexist sequestration of > women to those with most power, followed by apparent renunciation of this > unpleasantness for purely political motives, and with lesser assaults on > reason such as the absurd concoctions concerning American prehistory and the > status of native Americans... This looks to me like a sorry legacy that > should fill adherents with shame and a wish to renounce it. So what am I > missing here? They support family life, perhaps? So does any moral system > based on empathy and common sense; I don't think any group gets special > brownie points for not beating or abandoning or drugging their kids, > murdering each other, or walking on their hind legs. > > Damien Broderick > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Eschatoon Magic http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Eschatoon aka Giulio Prisco http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Giulio_Prisco From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 10:03:42 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:03:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 3/25/09, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 06:56 PM 3/24/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: > > If you can propose a technical > > path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would > > be most interested. > > > > Hunt down and kill all the rats. > > Also, Avoid diseases from European contact. Avoid the slave traders who took thousands of slaves away. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 10:06:09 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:06:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903250306v1fa3b6an7cc14aec32960fc3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:02 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > My god. I suppose that you'd claim wolves aren't > violent towards cattle, it's just that they have > a natural antagonistic relationship with them. > In fact, ethologists if I am not mistaken are inclined to employ terms such as violence or aggressiveness only for intra-specific behaviours, not for inter-specific fighting, e.g., for predation purposes. For many animal species intra-specific violence is in fact widespread, even though often ritualised or limited to an extent. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 25 11:26:39 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:26:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> Message-ID: <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> Il 25/03/2009 1.37, John K Clark ha scritto: > Dagon Gmail > >if a white siberian tiger would do it [kill] it would be an accident > Agreed. The tiger kill on purpose, usually. >> and we would keep it alive, because white siberian tigers are rare. > Precisely. Not. We could keep them alive because they have value for us. The people living near the tiger would think different. We could pay to keep it alive and well because they are worth the expenses, but there is a limit to these expenses. > But unfortunately people who think it's a good idea to torture > little children are not rare, they are not an endangered species; Mainly it is difficult to tell the difference from good people and bad people, where it is much more easy to tell the difference from people and tigers. Then the tiger are much less dangerous and we are able to manage them better. >> The tiger isn't evil. But it is dangerous, so we lock it in a cage Only if we value the tiger. If it is a dog, we probably will kill it. If it is a pig, we will kill it for sure. > But the cage is pours. This is another problem. >> I propose treating the worst of humans as we do the best of animals > I agree. I respectufully disagree. The best of the animals must be treated better than the worst of the humans, because they have a greater value for me or other humans than the worst of the humans. Between a Ted Bundy or a Jeffrey Damer and my dog, I'm sure what I will save and what I will let die. Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 12:10:59 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:10:59 +1100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/25 Lee Corbin wrote: > Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, > they just have an acquisitive nature towards their > financial accounts? Did you mean to write *Enron* executives? Exxon executives are all fine upstanding human beings who receive only what is their due. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 12:37:55 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:37:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/25/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > Actually, I like that. Here, you are quite right, in > my opinion. The gangs are trying to take over from us, > and they don't see anything wrong with genocide. As for > me, I too see nothing wrong with *our* perpetrating > genocide against them. So---here is the big question > for you: if people like me want to eliminate the gangs, > and the gangs want to eliminate people like me who > abide under our laws, whose side are you on? > I see that you are mainly concerned with violence. But, consider the abandoned neighborhoods that are appearing in US cities as unemployment and foreclosures drive people out of their homes. These forcibly abandoned areas are now being taken over by the gangs and drug dealers. So are the bankers and the lords of creation from Wall Street actually working against our society and on behalf of the gangs? BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 13:14:31 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:14:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > The tiger kill on purpose, usually. Why, except when it is Driving Under the Influence. :-) >>> I propose treating the worst of humans as we do the best of animals >> >> I agree. > > I respectufully disagree. > The best of the animals must be treated better than the worst of the humans, > because they have a greater value for me or other humans than the worst of > the humans. I am inclined to to share Mirko's view, even though I am wary of "objectivist", "universal" concepts or good and evil. A good animal is rewarded, a bad human is punished, and it is just monotheistic hypocrisy that we are doing it "for his own good". Moreover, the contrary, specieist and "humanist" views are just an ideological bias. Irrespective of what utilitarians may have to say on the subject, and as Peter Singer remarks, we go on feeding our pets while human beings at the other end of the world may be starving. This reflects our *actual* choice of values, and its taking into account proximity and personal relationships over philosophical utilitarianism. -- Stefano Vaj From spike66 at att.net Wed Mar 25 14:15:15 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:15:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] exxon bad guy? punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin .... > > Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, they > just have an acquisitive nature towards their financial accounts? .... > Lee Hi Lee, is there an Exxon biggie stealing? Oy vey, I trusted those guys. Do post a link, so I can evaluate and possibly sell my Exxon stock. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Mar 25 14:17:26 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:17:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903242358g823125fi4358e28534323f63@mail.gmail.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com><580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903242358g823125fi4358e28534323f63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > 2009/3/24 Dagon Gmail : > > Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the > > US-central free market paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a > > worldwide economic meltdown (and more to come). Less. Way less. Governments are the problem G, free markets the solution. spike From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 07:03:00 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:03:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903250003p7f488237g15cecdae4a326228@mail.gmail.com> > The problem with the Oakland guy isn't all that he's violent. He had an >> antagonistic relationship with the police. >> > > My god. I suppose that you'd claim wolves aren't violent towards cattle, > it's just that they have a natural antagonistic relationship with them. Wolves are violent because they are predators. Criminals and Police are at war. War is symptomatic of the conditions which generate it. I do feel a general sympathy for people who fall into the category of criminals. I think prison is too freely imposed. I don't approve of prison for nonviolent crimes. This guy probably had committed violent crimes but in a hypothetical case where someone is put away for ten or more years for having a drug on their person is unpardonable. You're very likely an enemy of our whole society if you think that he was > morally obligated to start shooting. Is that what you would have done? I've never touched a gun or been in a fist fight. I've never had to fight or resist a possible life sentence. Hard to say what I would do to avoid one. If I didn't think I ought to be imprisoned for life (and few do) I'd feel right in defending myself in any way. >if people like me want to eliminate the gangs, and the gangs want to eliminate people like me who abide under our laws, whose side are you on? On a primal level, I'd want to help the people most like me. Probably you and your people are more like me and my people. Above that, I'm disgusted by genocide on all sides. Peaceniks like me could be devoured in a war without causing the slightest indigestion to the war machine. > Somehow, I gather that you have more sympathy for the Oakland killer who > slaughtered the police officers than you would have if the tables were > turned, and some police officer had killed four gang members. Am I right? I don't know anything except that he was pulled over for violating parole and killed a few police before they killed him. I think all of their deaths were tragic, and the desperation that drove the first to shoot the rest is also tragic. I didn't know any of them so who shot whom is not really a factor for me. > > Is it a case that redesigning societies has always failed, but only because > the right guy didn't do it? > Society has changed many times and will again, I am certain. I don't know how to force it. Che Guavara said nothing substantial changes without blood and fire. I think the internet was an example of global society changing. Sometimes I do long for a Dr. Doom sort of character to assume the role of world dictator and sort out what backward cultures and bureaucratic immobility has been unable to. Of course, they are usually of the Blood and Fire temperament. I like the Social Engineer Jaques Fresco. If only he were powerful in addition to being brilliant and could implement his ideas. mind control is the best we can do to keep our uncivilized billions from > obliterating one another. Unfortunately, the puppet masters are also > uncivilized. > Mind control is also mere science fiction. You don't think the masses are lulled into complacency with bread and circuses? Numb and Blind to the bigger picture? If people are not led into the light, they are being kept in the dark. They are uninformed and thus impotent. That is what I'm referring to, not pink lazers and foil hats. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 15:00:51 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:00:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903250003p7f488237g15cecdae4a326228@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <2ae60d770903250003p7f488237g15cecdae4a326228@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903250800m58e04eb7j6e8cc5c60d2b3845@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/25 Chad Robb : > Wolves are violent because they are predators. Non sequitur. Many erbivores are more violent than wolves... > On a primal level, I'd want to help the people most like me. Probably you > and your people are more like me and my people. What about a transhumanist gang? :-) -- Stefano Vaj From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 25 22:35:51 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:35:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> Il 25/03/2009 6.35, Lee Corbin ha scritto: > Mirco (painlord2k at libero.it) wrote: >> What is the difference from killing someone and altering his/her mind >> (and maybe body) in a permanent and deep way against his/her will? > However a change is effected does not affect the identity > issue. *I* deciding suddenly to become a missionary and > preach in Africa isn't all that different from you sending > some nanotech into my brain to effect the same change. The difference is that the first change is not caused by my will, the second it is. So I can always change you again and again, as I will. The difference is that you have no more a free will (whatever it is) but my will (whatever is it). So there is no more YOU but only ME. Like with a slave and his master, but the slave is, in this case, a simple extension of the master will, he has no more an autonomous will of himself. There is no more a self. > Note that NONE of what I wrote above addresses the *propriety* > of making said changes; of course we must disapprove of you > doing this to me while making no protest against a natural > development in my own personality in this same direction. Why protest again something that have no free will or any will? Do you protest against hurricanes? Climate change? Earthquake? >> In both you have practically erased the person and supplanted him with >> another person that you (intelligently) designed to suit your standards. > I dispute your contention that someone has become all that > different because of a change of heart. I wrote about a permanent and deep change, but what if it is a small change now and another small change after, and another again and again? It is like eating cherries, one pull another. > People change all > the time, sometimes in deep ways. > But since almost all of > their memories remain unaffected, they're clearly the same > people. (At least their friends, children, wives, relatives, > and the police think so---everyone thinks so, except some > amateur philosophers who have unfortunately thought about > this, but not thought about it long enough or well enough.) It is the difference between being hitted by a rock fallen from a mountain cliff and a rock launched by a men with the intent to hit you. The will of the man is the difference. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 25 22:51:35 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:51:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> Il 25/03/2009 14.14, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, painlord2k at libero.it > wrote: >> The tiger kill on purpose, usually. > > Why, except when it is Driving Under the Influence. :-) > >>>> I propose treating the worst of humans as we do the best of animals >>> I agree. >> I respectfully disagree. >> The best of the animals must be treated better than the worst of the humans, >> because they have a greater value for me or other humans than the worst of >> the humans. > > I am inclined to to share Mirko's view, even though I am wary of > "objectivist", "universal" concepts or good and evil. I don't know if it is an objectivist concept. > A good animal is rewarded, a bad human is punished, and it is just > monotheistic hypocrisy that we are doing it "for his own good". A good animal is rewarded because its behaviours is valued as good from his master. Why I must save a Ted Bundy, risking he kill, rape or do other mayhem again against another fellow human when I can let him die? Why I must let my dog die when I know it could help and protect me or another fellow human? Why I must exchange the first with the latter? > Moreover, the contrary, specieist and "humanist" views are just an > ideological bias. > > Irrespective of what utilitarians may have to say on the subject, and > as Peter Singer remarks, we go on feeding our pets while human beings > at the other end of the world may be starving. Who is the neighbour? Ted Bundy or my dog? > This reflects our > *actual* choice of values, and its taking into account proximity and > personal relationships over philosophical utilitarianism. It is also interesting what greens and other "philanthropists" do. They combat against GM crops and let people starve in poor countries, for the good of Gaia, Mother Nature and other fantasies. This point to their real priorities. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Mar 25 23:29:07 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:29:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Il 24/03/2009 23.57, Dagon Gmail ha scritto: > Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the > US-central free market > paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a worldwide economic meltdown > (and more to come). Calling the US a free market is not correct until the FED. is able to decree the quantity of money available, who will receive it and how much it will cost to him. Money is needed in any minimally complex free market, but when the money is controlled by the government and have not material value, the market is not free. Unfortunately, the government is not able in any way to manage any minimally complex economy. So, as usual, its meddling will only cause damages. You can stick the label "free market" to the cause of the current mess, but it is like telling that "oppression" is the cause of the islamic terrorism. Unfortunately, for a Muslim, "oppression" is the existence of people that don't want become Muslims, don't want Muslims to rule them and don't want move from where they are to let Muslims to take their place and the fruits of their work. Mirco From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 25 23:30:26 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:30:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> At 11:51 PM 3/25/2009 +0100, Mirco wrote: >It is also interesting what greens and other "philanthropists" do. >They combat against GM crops and let people starve in poor >countries, for the good of Gaia, Mother Nature and other fantasies. Some of the crazies might do it for fantastic motives. Others, like my permaculture farmer/lawyer wife Barbara, have better ones. See, for example: Damien Broderick From dagonweb at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 23:33:04 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:33:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: I have had severe, near violent arguments with some of my left-leaning associates over GM crops. It could have come to blows. I am very much in favor, and they are, in my book irrationally xenophobe on the issue. I regard this as very strange. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 25 23:43:00 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:43:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> At 12:33 AM 3/26/2009 +0100, Dagon wrote: >I have had severe, near violent arguments with some of my >left-leaning associates over >GM crops. It could have come to blows. I am very much in favor, and >they are, in my >book irrationally xenophobe on the issue. I regard this as very strange. Since you posted this less than 3 minutes after my post went up, I assume you haven't looked at those blog entries. The case is not against GM per se, but against the bastards like Monsanto who manipulate the law to screw everyone else. Funny, where have we seen that done before? Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 25 23:50:36 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:50:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325184659.02396a58@satx.rr.com> Note this as well, which is not directed at GM crops but at foolish manipulation (in the interests, probably, of megacorps) of potentially vital food sources at a time when whole states in the USA are in agricultural crisis: "I am concerned about laws with vague language aimed at food producers. It would be tragic if local food producers such as Will Allen were regulated out of business. As with most government regulation, the food regulation laws have the potential to harm small businesses, while large businesses will be able to get their people on regulatory boards, bribe regulators, and so forth. Here's the text of a letter I sent to a local Congressman:" From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 00:47:54 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:47:54 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/26 painlord2k at libero.it : > Calling the US a free market is not correct until the FED. is able to decree > the quantity of money available, who will receive it and how much it will > cost to him. > Money is needed in any minimally complex free market, but when the money is > controlled by the government and have not material value, the market is not > free. Unfortunately, the government is not able in any way to manage any > minimally complex economy. So, as usual, its meddling will only cause > damages. As I explained before, the Federal Reserve Bank in the US (and the central bank of many other countries) is not strictly controlled by the Government, in the same way that the courts are not controlled by the Government. This was ostensibly done in order to prevent party political meddling with the currency and monetary policy. Of course, both the Fed and the courts are not in fact as independent of Government in practice as they are supposed to be in theory. -- Stathis Papaioannou From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 00:53:49 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 01:53:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Message-ID: > > > the quantity of money available, who will receive it and how much it will > > cost to him. > > Money is needed in any minimally complex free market, but when the money > is > > controlled by the government and have not material value, the market is > not > > free. Unfortunately, the government is not able in any way to manage any > > minimally complex economy. So, as usual, its meddling will only cause > > damages. > > > Calling the US a free market is not correct until the FED. is able to > decree > > As I explained before, the Federal Reserve Bank in the US (and the > central bank of many other countries) is not strictly controlled by > the Government, in the same way that the courts are not controlled by > the Government. This was ostensibly done in order to prevent party > political meddling with the currency and monetary policy. Of course, > both the Fed and the courts are not in fact as independent of > Government in practice as they are supposed to be in theory. > So communists can't be trusted to keep their paws from the cookie jar. Then the fascists raided the kitchen and pigged out. And now the capitalists have been caught chowing down on the green stuff. What system will make absolutely sure there aren't people so far removed from accountability and oversight that they, drunk with entitlement, start binging and partying on a boat ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 17:32:22 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:32:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903250800m58e04eb7j6e8cc5c60d2b3845@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <2ae60d770903250003p7f488237g15cecdae4a326228@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903250800m58e04eb7j6e8cc5c60d2b3845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903251032t73f51223ycf46e4776c3c1229@mail.gmail.com> > > > Wolves are violent because they are predators. > > Non sequitur. Many herbivores are more violent than wolves... Ahem. Wolves are violent against cattle because they wish to eat them whereas police and criminals are fighting for reasons unrelated (directly) to food. > > > > On a primal level, I'd want to help the people most like me. Probably you > > and your people are more like me and my people. > > What about a transhumanist gang? :-) My kind of people. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 03:44:56 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:44:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> BillK writes > On 3/25/09, Damien Broderick wrote: >> At 06:56 PM 3/24/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: >>> If you can propose a technical >>> path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >>> be most interested. >>> >> Hunt down and kill all the rats. >> >> > > Also, > Avoid diseases from European contact. Avoid the slave traders who took > thousands of slaves away. Er, Bill, I hope that you realize that this would mean armed resistance. Are you advocating that these peaceful islanders actually create a war department, organize, but weapons from international arms dealers, tax their own citizens? And, if too many free riders "didn't want nothin' to do with no war", use conscription?? Come now. Wouldn't it be better to just practice civil disobedience and wait for the Europeans and slave traders to realize the errors of their ways? Lee From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 26 03:54:27 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:54:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325225010.023b2bf0@satx.rr.com> At 08:44 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee ironized: >>>At 06:56 PM 3/24/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: >>>>If you can propose a technical >>>>path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >>>>be most interested. >>> Hunt down and kill all the rats. >>> >>Also, >>Avoid diseases from European contact. Avoid the slave traders who took >>thousands of slaves away. > >Er, Bill, I hope that you realize that this would mean >armed resistance. The serious point Bill was making is that the few thousand original colonists of Easter Island had no plausible way to confront or repel disease-bearing invaders. This need not apply to the current situations to which Keith was applying that catastrophe as an analogy or perhaps a homology. (I suppose it's possible that they might have tried to deal with the rats, but my own kitchen has the horrible things scuttling in the walls, so good luck with that.) Damien Broderick From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 03:57:44 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:57:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again Message-ID: What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter Island. This is in the context of mining the moon. I don't see how to do it. I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions and ship loads of equipment. Keith From moulton at moulton.com Thu Mar 26 03:49:38 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:49:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Message-ID: <1238039378.8163.1766.camel@hayek> On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 00:29 +0100, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Unfortunately, for a Muslim, "oppression" is the existence of > people that don't want become Muslims, don't want Muslims to rule them > and don't want move from where they are to let Muslims to take their > place and the fruits of their work. What???? I am sorry but this makes no sense. What are you trying to say? Fred From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 04:19:26 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:19:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls Message-ID: Figuring it would raise credibility, I have been trying to put together a list of technical developments that would wipe out the rational for building power satellites. This is because a lot of people who could be involved in this business have the fairly fresh memory of Iridium going bust. In that case it was because much of their market was eaten by cell phones. To start off, the development and acceptance of very low cost nuclear energy would wipe out the market for power sat energy more expensive than the nuclear energy. What other cases can you think of? Keith From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 04:44:53 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:44:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] exxon bad guy? punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CB0845.9080606@rawbw.com> Spike writes >> ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin > .... >> Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, they >> just have an acquisitive nature towards their financial accounts? > .... >> Lee > > Hi Lee, is there an Exxon biggie stealing? Oy vey, I trusted those guys. > Do post a link, so I can evaluate and possibly sell my Exxon stock. Huh? Maybe I'm confused. (I don't follow this stuff much anymore.) I thought some Exxon guys went to jail. No? Someone else? Well---into my tirade substitute X, where X is the famous scandal-ridden corporation of the last years. Thanks, Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 04:45:33 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:45:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CB086D.9030606@rawbw.com> Oh, Stathis got it. I meant Enron. Thanks, Lee Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/25 Lee Corbin wrote: > >> Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, >> they just have an acquisitive nature towards their >> financial accounts? > > Did you mean to write *Enron* executives? Exxon executives are all > fine upstanding human beings who receive only what is their due. > > From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 04:58:52 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> BillK writes > On 3/25/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > >> Actually, I like that. Here, you are quite right, in >> my opinion. The gangs are trying to take over from us, >> and they don't see anything wrong with genocide. As for >> me, I too see nothing wrong with *our* perpetrating >> genocide against them. So---here is the big question >> for you: if people like me want to eliminate the gangs, >> and the gangs want to eliminate people like me who >> abide under our laws, whose side are you on? > > I see that you are mainly concerned with violence. Actually, I *enjoy* very much pointing out to everyone who'll listen, how *non-violent* our society is. Thank goodness, too. I've never seen anyone killed or even beaten up (...well, I did see one or two very mild fights in junior high). We need to *celebrate* how non-violent we are, and how wonderfully successful our institutions are at providing very high standards of living and no violence. (Except for the gangs, which need to be dealt with... yes... violently if they won't come peaceably.) > But, consider the abandoned neighborhoods that are appearing in US > cities as unemployment and foreclosures drive people out of their > homes. > These forcibly abandoned areas are now being taken over by the gangs > and drug dealers. Why not have the army take them over, if for some reason they're popping up? > So are the bankers and the lords of creation from Wall Street actually > working against our society and on behalf of the gangs? Law of Unintended Consequences, if you ask me. No, the "lords of creation" (who, I guess are the ones you want to credit that I was speaking of above, those who have been elected or who have *freely* chosen one life activity over another and, up till now, have managed to keep things humming)... these "lords of creation" you speak of don't intend to help the gangs, even though you are right that this is what is happening. Now in my eyes (and those of plenty of suspicious people), the government is making a power grab over everything here in the U.S. Obama and company really don't care a bit about the economy, so long as (a) they get to expand their power and the power of the government they run, and (b) they're able to continue to demonize the opposition, and make the American fools believe that things would be even worse without them. I.e., if things are still in a big mess four years from now, it will only because, you see, they didn't spend enough to fix it! The stimulus packages weren't *big enough*! More power! More power to the government so that it can fix everything! And why not? They already have everyone hoodwinked to the point of believing that government is the only solution. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 05:09:48 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:09:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> Message-ID: <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> Mirco scritto > Il 25/03/2009 6.35, Lee Corbin ha scritto: > >> Note that NONE of what I wrote above addresses the *propriety* >> of making said changes; of course we must disapprove of you >> doing this to me while making no protest against a natural >> development in my own personality in this same direction. > > Why protest again something that have no free will or any will? > Do you protest against hurricanes? Climate change? Earthquake? Actually, although a 100% materialist determinist, I also believe the concept of free will to have utility. If I do something because someone holds a gun to my head, or you send some nanoware into it, then my free will has been overridden. But if I do something on my own volition, I can be held responsible for it, and I've always said that we should say in this case that I freely did it, or that my free will was operative. In fact, I *do* protest hurricanes and earthquakes, in the same sense I protest criminal behavior: I want to do whatever it takes to stop it. The gangs control LA. Google for gang areas, LA, etc., and you'll see their dominions. Next people should read about the great San Francisco vigilantes, who went into action when officialdom was hopelessly corrupt and hopelessly incapable of dealing with the criminal element. They held very fair trials, acquitted a number of people---and hanged the rest! Citizens of LA! Arise! March tomorrow on south central, Eagle Rock, and all the other areas under gang control. By your millions you will overwhelm the mere hundred thousand or so of them! Seize back the city! To arms! Prepare the guillotine! This is why the second amendment has let you keep your arms, don't you see? Just for times like this! Whose city is it anyway? Theirs or yours? Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 05:15:16 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:15:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> Keith Henson wrote: > What I was looking for is technical suggestions Ideas? Okay. > about how people with > human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little > charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter > Island. This is in the context of mining the moon. I don't see how > to do it. I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions > and ship loads of equipment. Nice challenge. How about hydroponics? Is the capital chain really so long that the mining, smelting, and so on couldn't be done, say, with your billion $ or so up front to start it off? Lee From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 05:24:43 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:54:43 +1030 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc0903252224v3e303d78i39cc4c60a13da236@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 Keith Henson : > Figuring it would raise credibility, I have been trying to put > together a list of technical developments that would wipe out the > rational for building power satellites. > > This is because a lot of people who could be involved in this business > have the fairly fresh memory of Iridium going bust. ?In that case it > was because much of their market was eaten by cell phones. > > To start off, the development and acceptance of very low cost nuclear > energy would wipe out the market for power sat energy more expensive > than the nuclear energy. > > What other cases can you think of? > > Keith This probably counts as nuclear: National Ignition Facility https://lasers.llnl.gov/ -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 05:26:22 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:56:22 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325225010.023b2bf0@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325225010.023b2bf0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903252226h40e87c4ch5aa249372e9dd80b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 Damien Broderick : > At 08:44 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee ironized: > >>>> At 06:56 PM 3/24/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you can propose a technical >>>>> path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >>>>> be most interested. >>>> >>>> ?Hunt down and kill all the rats. >>>> >>> >>> Also, >>> Avoid diseases from European contact. Avoid the slave traders who took >>> thousands of slaves away. >> >> Er, Bill, I hope that you realize that this would mean >> armed resistance. > > > > The serious point Bill was making is that the few thousand original > colonists of Easter Island had no plausible way to confront or repel > disease-bearing invaders. This need not apply to the current situations to > which Keith was applying that catastrophe as an analogy or perhaps a > homology. (I suppose it's possible that they might have tried to deal with > the rats, but my own kitchen has the horrible things scuttling in the walls, > so good luck with that.) > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > Moonrat: http://www.americazoo.com/goto/index/mammals/39.htm -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From kanzure at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 05:32:41 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:32:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ad6af70903252232n73101b2bp7f3ecf4a7b309ddc@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with > human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little > charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter > Island. ?This is in the context of mining the moon. ?I don't see how > to do it. ?I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions > and ship loads of equipment. I honestly doubt that you- or any one else- knows how to do it even with a trillion dollars. The knowledge simply isn't there at the moment. Especially if charcoal is the only available material- sure there might be some chemistry that you can do to extract out and purify the carbon, but there carbon isn't enough to make modern industrial civilization work (e.g., see the nitrogen cycle and the agricultural system). So, I think that it's a problem that we don't know exactly what equipment would be the minimal set of tools required to bootstrap modern technological society. There's been a lot of thought put into this that you might want to read up on- http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/e4c375acce772250 Starting with limited resources is what would happen out in space, but what about just assuming we have access to any material we need? Do we know- precisely- without running into patents, IP barriers, and so on, the exact steps and sequences of processes that we would have to strum together to make this happen? So far, I don't think so, but that's what open manufacturing is somewhat about. Since we don't have many billions, or even trillions, what are the minimal set of steps that we can perform today, to help work on something like this? The way I see it, it's mainly a large lack of knowledge that impedes the work on bootstrapping industrial civilization- such as a formulation of different modularized manufacturing unit processes and how much each piece 'opens up' in terms of capacity- or on the other hand, simply an internet-accessible repository of these different processes that people could dump standardized, structured information into so that these analyses of how to 'mine the moon' with a limited set of vitamin parts (or something) can happen. I'd be happy just seeing it happen with detailed models for a good first step- not just a list of names of tools (which is even better than what we have now, but an actual CAD models and parametric information- which would then lead to a collaborative platform for engineering work on this front, instead of O'Neill's work from the 70s being lost (and so on) becoming inaccessible and otherwise dying in terms of active work. Among other advantages that I've harped on for about just about forever now. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 26 05:45:03 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:45:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> At 10:15 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee wrote: [Keith:] >>This is in the context of mining the moon. I don't see how >>to do it. I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions >>and ship loads of equipment. > >Nice challenge. How about hydroponics? Is the capital chain >really so long that the mining, smelting, and so on couldn't >be done, say, with your billion $ or so up front to start it >off? But but but--Jeff has already said twice that he's talking about *telefactored bots* on the moon, directed or perhaps overseen from earth (but presumably with some fairly wily computer programs on board; I can imagine a large central thing as well with lots of grunt, but that might well be less realistic these days than a cloud or swarm). No humans need be harmed in the making of this Luna! Objection 1: it's too soon, we don't have good enough bots. Reply: Moore's Law and lots of dollars. Objection 2: you can't make anything useful out of dirt without ample water. Reply: erm, well, good point. Is it a killer objection? Damien Broderick From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 26 05:45:48 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:45:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin > ... > More power! More power to the government so that it can fix everything! > > And why not? They already have everyone hoodwinked to the > point of believing that government is the only solution... Lee Lee before we elected the current tragedy I asked people what they thought government could do for them in their wildest dreams, the very best case. What would actually change? Sure there were clearly deluded whackmeisters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI But I am talking only about sane people for the moment. If we elected the most perfect, honest, intelligent government imaginable, what could it do? Could it govern away all our problems? Would it magically find a huge pot of money no one ever discovered before, and use it to fill our gas tanks and pay our mortgages? Imagine tens of thousands of clones of yourself, holding every political office, so the government will do whatever you think is right. What could a *perfect* government do for everyone? Would there still be winners and losers? spike From shannonvyff at yahoo.com Thu Mar 26 05:22:33 2009 From: shannonvyff at yahoo.com (Shannon) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom Message-ID: <982443.40426.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It has cryonics as a joke throughout, and a lot of jokes that Extropians would appreciate: http://television.aol.com/show/video/partner/abc/better-off-ted/better-off-ted-pilot/187472-189347 Health, Happiness, Wisdom & Longevity :-) -- best wishes from --Shannon Vyff (512) 673-3431 2011 Lantana Drive, Round Rock, TX, 78664 For a fun read of how the future could be check out: "21st Century Kids" http://www.amazon.com/21st-Century-Kids-Shannon-Vyff/dp/1886057001 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 05:54:16 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:54:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> Spike wrote: But I am talking only about sane people for the moment. If we elected the most perfect, honest, intelligent government imaginable, what could it do? Could it govern away all our problems? Would it magically find a huge pot of money no one ever discovered before, and use it to fill our gas tanks and pay our mortgages? Imagine tens of thousands of clones of yourself, holding every political office, so the government will do whatever you think is right. What could a *perfect* government do for everyone? Would there still be winners and losers? >>> As long as I get what *I* want, I don't care if there are losers. *Wait..., that's the very problem! * John ; ) P.S. I'm really not so sure that my many clones would get along with each other... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Mar 26 05:31:31 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:31:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] lenovo or ienovo, was RE: exxon bad guy? punishment In-Reply-To: <49CB0845.9080606@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0845.9080606@rawbw.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin > Subject: Re: [ExI] exxon bad guy? punishment > > Spike writes > > >> ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin > > .... > >> Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal... Lee > > > > Hi Lee, is there an Exxon biggie stealing?... > Huh? Maybe I'm confused... > > Well---into my tirade substitute X, where X is the famous > scandal-ridden corporation of the last years. Lee I was a little slow on that one Lee, shoulda realized you meant Enron. I bet the Exxon biggies were sweating a bit when they heard that Enron biggies had been stealing, because of the similarity in the sound of the names. This reminds me of a funny story about the last computer upgrade at the rocket ranch. They bought a bunch of computers from a company called Lenovo or Ienovo. I couldn't tell from the company logo which is spelled with a lower case l. see the logo at the top left at this site: http://www.lenovo.com/us/en/?AID=10393970&PID=2203897&SID=815858969&afsrc=1 You can see how this logo would ordinarily be interpreted as Ienovo, with an upper case I. So I googled to determine if it is Ienovo or Lenovo, and found there is a company called Ienovo and another company called Lenovo, both of which sell computer stuff: http://www.etiexpress.com/i/IENOVO.html So clearly someone is ripping off someone else's brand name. Don't know which came first. Anyone? I am thinking of starting a company and calling it 1enovo. This would have two advantages: this name comes up first in the phone books, and also, when the companies accuses me of misappropriating their intellectual property, I will insist to each that I was ripping off only the other one. Better idea: intentionally start two companies, one called Oenovo with a capital Oscar and the other called 0enovo, with a leading zero. Then figure out ways to confound the public with cleverness. Suggestions welcome. Have your two companies sue each other, and represent them both, for instance, or have them sell stuff to each other in exchange for each other's stock, then create derivatives based on each other. Then sell the whole toxic mess to a third party and claim your companies are too big to fail. Demand the American taxpayer bail you out. spike It's a tragic thing that I only come up with good ideas about either humor or stuff that is perfectly useless. Or both. From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Mar 26 06:27:24 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 01:27:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] funishment In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.co m> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090326012321.0231d4b0@satx.rr.com> At 10:54 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: >P.S. I'm really not so sure that my many clones would get along >with each other... Well, at least all of my clones would admire all of yours unreservedly and buy them a non-alcoholic drink each. :) (Who says I'm always a snark?) (But wait--what if I *am* always a snark!) (No, surely that would not be possible.) Damien Broderick From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 07:47:38 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 00:47:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: <982443.40426.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <982443.40426.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903260047h66683171pf2a9f852f5786b2f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/25 Shannon It has cryonics as a joke throughout, and a lot of jokes that Extropians would appreciate: http://television.aol.com/show/video/partner/abc/better-off-ted/better-off-ted-pilot/187472-189347 >>> I watched it and must say it's funny stuff. My favorite scene was when the workmen royally screwed up the task of moving the cryonics cylinder (at least if the goal had been to cause no damage)! John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 09:03:49 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:03:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903260047h66683171pf2a9f852f5786b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <982443.40426.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2d6187670903260047h66683171pf2a9f852f5786b2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Like always, banned outside US. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 10:13:17 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:13:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> Message-ID: > > Actually, although a 100% materialist determinist, I also believe the > concept of free will to have utility. If I do > something because someone holds a gun to my head, or you send some nanoware > into it, then my free will has been > overridden. But if I do something on my own volition, I can be held > responsible for it, and I've always said that > we should say in this case that I freely did it, or that my free will was > operative. > > In fact, I *do* protest hurricanes and earthquakes, in the same sense I > protest criminal behavior: I want to do whatever > it takes to stop it. > > The gangs control LA. Google for gang areas, LA, etc., and you'll see their > dominions. Next people should read about > the great San Francisco vigilantes, who went into action when officialdom > was hopelessly corrupt and hopelessly > incapable of dealing with the criminal element. They held very fair trials, > acquitted a number of people---and hanged > the rest! > > Citizens of LA! Arise! March tomorrow on south central, Eagle Rock, and all > the other areas under gang control. By your > millions you will overwhelm the mere hundred thousand or so of them! Seize > back the city! To arms! Prepare the guillotine! > > This is why the second amendment has let you keep your arms, don't you see? > Just for times like this! Whose city is it > anyway? Theirs or yours? In a primitive, backward era, disease and affliction was attributed to lack of moral character, the punishment of god or the gods, malignant vapors or unhappy spirits. We now know that these explanations are laughable, shortsighted, primitive and the result of flawed education. We now can *clearly* see that miserable management of a cities infrastructure contributed to disease, and that you have to do certain things, in logical steps to stop them from happening. So you come to the conclusion that the US is overrun by "criminal gangs". You then go and attribute a cause - "free will" and "incompetent politicians". You seem to conclude that ineptitude of will is the cause for a collapse of infrastructure and the formation of gangs. You then go and assert that "the people", and you suggest you can make a clear and precise, almost Berlusconi-esque incission seperation the meek from the gangbanger, and are sure that if this "noble citizenry" (you can reconize the good ones - they were white robes and hold their hands on solemn prayer) can be precisely aimed to (and here is where it gets really exiting) take up arms and go for the bad ones (and they wear dark sinister robes and are generally found in an alley fornicating. I say you do *PRECISELY* what is wrong in this case. People a century from now will roll of their hoverchairs laughing. It is like medieval townspeople protesting the filth and squallor of those bad parts of town, and assert a good flogging will make sure these scoundrels will learn to keep the place clean. You will ADD TO THE PROBLEM with your assessment and proposed course of action. Your popular lynchmob will attract precisely the gangbangers you wish to unroot, and they will use your little lynchmob to strike at other gangs. You will disperse more and more gangs throughout the population. This week the EU president said : America is on the road to Hell. This is completely true in my assessment. And it is because people have no clue what is right or wrong, what is sensible or destructive, what are causes and what are results. In the above example - the situation is unsalvagable. Once you let a society rot, allow the formation of an underclass that has absolutely no meaningful association with society, cannot care for itself, yet is completely dependent on the resources of society to survive - then you have created the basic requirements for banditry. It is about as simple as smearing your wounds with feces and getting infected. Yet the ideological "free will" people keep asserting that "that damn cripple most stop lingering before the store entrance because he smells bad". What alternative does the cripple have? The next dead rhetoric is, "nothing wrong with your hands, everyone is equal in the eyes of the lord, get a job" - and hearing that I WISH upon all those assholes who do say that, to get lingering cancer for ten years. So they know what it means to lose a job, be able to not make any meaningful contribution and slowly die in yoiur own filth. Bear in mind, if you are there, at rock bottom, the MOST PAINFUL is some asshole say "get a job". It makes you grow a burning, simmering hatred for the asshole and all he stands for ... let's just say that pretty soon I expect the first born americans to commit blind acts of terrorism against what they perceive to be the other side. However - the rhetoricians on either side will not crawl from their trenches. Nothing will change. Decades from now, there will still be moral retards who insist "those miscreants need a sound flogging". In fact - I am absolutely sure Mirek Topolanek is totally correct, but not just because of flawed economic plans. America is indeed on the road to hell, *not because it is a society - it is an experiment in breeding ruthlessness*. If it gets really out of hand, I will do my part and send a box of food aid. Something like powdered milk and canned spiced ham and Seasme street T Shirts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 10:24:21 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:24:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903260324n5b9be473s93d7d6f05b5ee47a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 Dagon Gmail : > I have had severe, near violent arguments with some of my left-leaning > associates over > GM crops. It could have come to blows. I am very much in favor, and they > are, in my > book irrationally xenophobe on the issue. I regard this as very strange. An issue which is seldom considered in the quasi-religious debate about GM is "who controls the technologies?". I may well understand how people may be reluctant to depend on foreign companies holding patented technologies on irreproducible vegetal varieties to depend on them for their agricultural output. In fact, this is not very different from depending from Microsoft for the working of one's government, public agencies and businesses altogether. Of course, the only solution to that is not luddism, but access to *alternative* technologies, and/or the remedies which in theory would already exist in most IP law systems to deal with such scenarios (expropriation, compulsory licensing, etc.). The problem, however, is that as we say in Italy you apply the law to small companies and "interpret" it in favour of big ones with internal and international political clout... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 10:50:29 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:50:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:51 PM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > A good animal is rewarded because its behaviours is valued as good from his > master. Yes, not very differently from the reasons why you reward human beings whose behaviours you value... > Why I must save a Ted Bundy, risking he kill, rape or do other mayhem again > against another fellow human when I can let him die? > Why I must let my dog die when I know it could help and protect me or > another fellow human? > Why I must exchange the first with the latter? Rhetorical questions that I can hardly offer an answer to, given that I have just said that I am in agreement with you. ;-) > Who is the neighbour? Ted Bundy or my dog? The dog, obviously. But I am not just referring to people you have an active dislike for. Indifference works alike, especially when empathy - which is necessarily a matter of degree - has no opportunity to kick in. -- Stefano Vaj From dagonweb at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 11:21:14 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:21:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > A good animal is rewarded because its behaviours is valued as good from > his > > master. > > Yes, not very differently from the reasons why you reward human beings > whose behaviours you value... > > > Why I must save a Ted Bundy, risking he kill, rape or do other mayhem > again > > against another fellow human when I can let him die? > > Why I must let my dog die when I know it could help and protect me or > > another fellow human? > > Why I must exchange the first with the latter? > > Rhetorical questions that I can hardly offer an answer to, given that > I have just said that I am in agreement with you. ;-) > > > Who is the neighbour? Ted Bundy or my dog? > > The dog, obviously. But I am not just referring to people you have an > active dislike for. Indifference works alike, especially when empathy > - which is necessarily a matter of degree - has no opportunity to kick > in. > I am changing my mind. I am cautiously considering the idea that *a very humane type of euthanasia* OR * offering the convict an incapacitating wireheading treatment* (choice of the criminal) is preferable over life imprisonment. Humane treatment is the first consideration - cost efficiency is a second(ary) consideration.I think that any criminal who spends over 5 years (or so) should be offered either option, no waiting time, treatment occurs on request within a brief waiting period. Euthanasia should be extremely painless and devoid of any type of force, threat or torture. I assume that a wirehead will slowly die over the period of weeks to months if he doesn't receive frequent care (washing, feeding, etc). Come to think of it, I think the state should offer this to *anyone*, under the same conditions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 12:04:44 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:04:44 +1100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/26 spike : > > >> ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin >> ... >> More power! More power to the government so that it can fix everything! >> >> And why not? They already have everyone hoodwinked to the >> point of believing that government is the only solution... Lee > > Lee before we elected the current tragedy I asked people what they thought > government could do for them in their wildest dreams, the very best case. > What would actually change? ?Sure there were clearly deluded whackmeisters: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI Excessively hopeful perhaps, but not completely irrational. If government action can make people poorer then different government action, whether that means increasing taxes and services or decreasing them, should be able to have the opposite effect, no? > But I am talking only about sane people for the moment. ?If we elected the > most perfect, honest, intelligent government imaginable, what could it do? > Could it govern away all our problems? ?Would it magically find a huge pot > of money no one ever discovered before, and use it to fill our gas tanks and > pay our mortgages? ?Imagine tens of thousands of clones of yourself, holding > every political office, so the government will do whatever you think is > right. ?What could a *perfect* government do for everyone? ?Would there > still be winners and losers? Of course there would still be winners and losers. Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. And good for him! -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 12:21:08 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:21:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/26 Dagon Gmail : > So communists can't be trusted to keep their paws from the cookie jar. Then > the fascists > raided the kitchen and pigged out. And now the capitalists have been caught > chowing down > on the green stuff. What system will make absolutely sure there aren't > people so far removed > from accountability and oversight that they, drunk with entitlement, start > binging and > partying on a boat? No system of government can be trusted absolutely. My philosophically preferred system is anarchism, but I'm not sure that can be trusted either, since the communists, fascists or capitalists might take over. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 12:56:53 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:56:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 Dagon Gmail : > I am cautiously considering the idea that *a very humane type of euthanasia* > OR > * offering the convict an incapacitating wireheading treatment* (choice of > the criminal) > is preferable over life imprisonment. Something that has always surprised me is that no legal systems I know of which still provide for capital punishment considers the optionality of the execution as an alternative to abolition. In turn, I wonder why somebody with a life, as opposed to death, sentence, should be actively prevented from suicide, to an extent that has no equivalent for ordinary citizens, as if death were "too easy an escape" (a bizarre idea in particular for legal systems where worse, not lesser, crimes are punished with death), let alone the choice to go instead for a letal injection administered by the prison system. -- Stefano Vaj From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 13:15:01 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 06:15:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903252224v3e303d78i39cc4c60a13da236@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0903252224v3e303d78i39cc4c60a13da236@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ill add to list cheap fusion energy, Also a large, fast population reduction, i.e., smallpox, SARS, bird flu, etc. Keith On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Emlyn wrote: > 2009/3/26 Keith Henson : >> Figuring it would raise credibility, I have been trying to put >> together a list of technical developments that would wipe out the >> rational for building power satellites. >> >> This is because a lot of people who could be involved in this business >> have the fairly fresh memory of Iridium going bust. ?In that case it >> was because much of their market was eaten by cell phones. >> >> To start off, the development and acceptance of very low cost nuclear >> energy would wipe out the market for power sat energy more expensive >> than the nuclear energy. >> >> What other cases can you think of? >> >> Keith > > This probably counts as nuclear: > > National Ignition Facility > https://lasers.llnl.gov/ > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related > http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting > http://emlynoregan.com - main site > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 13:25:21 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:25:21 +1100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/26 Stefano Vaj : > In turn, I wonder why somebody with a life, as opposed to death, > sentence, should be actively prevented from suicide, to an extent that > has no equivalent for ordinary citizens, as if death were "too easy an > escape" (a bizarre idea in particular for legal systems where worse, > not lesser, crimes are punished with death), let alone the choice to > go instead for a letal injection administered by the prison system. The fact that prisoners are not allowed to suicide does not seem to me to be because it's considered "too easy an escape", but rather because death is seen as a very, very bad thing. That's consistent with capital punishment being the worst sentence a prisoner can get, and consistent with this sentence being most often given for murder, the worst crime. It's also worth noting that while prisoners may have suicidal moments or suicidal periods, very rarely is this sustained over time. Even clinical depression is in the majority of cases episodic and self-limiting, with the available treatments (when they work) only serving to shorten the period of illness. Often just keeping patients safe until the suicidal impulses pass is enough. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 14:06:40 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:06:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > The fact that prisoners are not allowed to suicide does not seem to me > to be because it's considered "too easy an escape", but rather because > death is seen as a very, very bad thing. Nothing wrong with that, as it is a very, very bad thing the loss of liberty, but what has it to do with allowing life prisoners to opt for execution? They would be in the best possible position to assess their own personal preferences, wouldn't they? -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 26 14:46:07 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:46:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer><49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it><580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com><49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <3847D70277AA44FBABA9C1CBD43F1F45@MyComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) > At 11:51 PM 3/25/2009 +0100, Mirco wrote: > >>It is also interesting what greens and other "philanthropists" do. >>They combat against GM crops and let people starve in poor countries, for >>the good of Gaia, Mother Nature and other fantasies. > > Some of the crazies might do it for fantastic motives. Others, like my > permaculture farmer/lawyer wife Barbara, have better ones. See, for > example: > > > > > > > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jonkc at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 26 15:03:31 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:03:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer><49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it><580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com><49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <37C95CC211694C3FAB906C5B0D9A15FB@MyComputer> "Damien Broderick" > Some of the crazies might do it for fantastic motives. Others, like my > permaculture farmer/lawyer wife Barbara, have better ones. > See, for example: [3 links] These links have little to do with genetically modified foods; they are about the idiocy of existing patent laws. They could have easily been talking about Amazon patenting the "buy with one click" button, or Apple trying to patent the "look and feel" of its operating system after they stole it from Xerox. John K Clark From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 15:22:52 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:22:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/26/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > Er, Bill, I hope that you realize that this would mean > armed resistance. > > Are you advocating that these peaceful islanders actually > create a war department, organize, but weapons from > international arms dealers, tax their own citizens? > > And, if too many free riders "didn't want nothin' to do > with no war", use conscription?? > > Come now. Wouldn't it be better to just practice civil > disobedience and wait for the Europeans and slave traders > to realize the errors of their ways? > :) I don't think they were particularly peaceful. The South Sea islanders fought on every other island, so they probably liked a good brawl on Easter Island as well. Although most of the spearheads found on the island seem to have a later date when they were resisting the attacks of the slaver ships. To support Damien, rat bones are the most prolific bones excavated on Easter Island. The settlers were eating the rats as one of their food sources. Hunt claims that rat remains indicate that the rodent population spiked at 20 million from 1200 to 1300 and then dropped off to a mere 1 million after the trees were gone and their food resources disappeared. After that, if there was little food for the rats, there was probably little for the humans either. It seems reasonable to me that the human growth rate would drop in line with the worsening environment. Human populations cannot grow without regular supplies of food and water. At a lower growth rate and with few resources available the population might never have been much more than 5000. There would have been fights over the available food, but after the rats destroyed the trees the islanders had few options left. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 15:24:55 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:24:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: The case is not against GM per se, > but against the bastards like Monsanto who manipulate the law to screw > everyone else. ### The bastards at Monsanto manipulate genes, not law. Why do so many people hate those who do the most to feed the many? Rafal From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 18:43:10 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:43:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc0903252224v3e303d78i39cc4c60a13da236@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903261143k2be9041ah86d27a7910df1f67@mail.gmail.com> What about a patchwork approach (based on the region/state and what appeals to them most) that combines land solar panels, synthetic fuels, hydro, wind, nuclear, etc., to sharply curb our dependence on foreign oil? Or does this cause a lessening of the necessary "laser focus" on the problem, which will in the end result in probable failure and the feared human population die-off? Please tell me again how many years (roughly) we have until we must have a solution in place to prevent the upcoming monstrous energy shortage (and the resulting chaos and death). John Grigg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:18:20 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:18:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903261143k2be9041ah86d27a7910df1f67@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0903252224v3e303d78i39cc4c60a13da236@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903261143k2be9041ah86d27a7910df1f67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/26 John Grigg : > What about a patchwork approach (based on the region/state and what appeals > to them most) that combines land solar panels, synthetic fuels, hydro, wind, > nuclear, etc., to sharply curb our dependence on foreign oil? Ground solar has very hard engineering problems associated with it. Synthetic fuels are either massive CO2 sources or require huge amounts of energy (or both). They make no sense until power gets down in the penny a kWh range. Hydro is mostly developed. Wind has well known serious problems. Nuclear will work if you are willing to build tens of thousands of reactors. >Or does this > cause a lessening of the necessary "laser focus" on the problem, which will > in the end result in probable failure and the feared human population > die-off? It is hard to justify the transport system for throughput of less than a million tons per year. Over a few decades that production rate displaces most other sources of power. > Please tell me again how many years (roughly) we have until we must have a > solution in place to prevent the upcoming monstrous energy shortage (and the > resulting chaos and death). Having misplaced my ICB (infallible crystal ball) I can't. I can point you to models which project the peak population at around 7 billion near 2020 and shows declines over the next few decades as high as a billion people per decade dying from food famines as the direct result of an energy famine. http://www.drmillslmu.com/peakoil.htm (One of the few papers by someone up on peak oil and the singularity.) Keith > John Grigg > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:51:42 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:51:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] funishment In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090326012321.0231d4b0@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326012321.0231d4b0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903261251y916ddbbme272b9e2edae8dbc@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:54 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: > > P.S. I'm really not so sure that my many clones would get along with each >> other... >> > > Well, at least all of my clones would admire all of yours unreservedly and > buy them a non-alcoholic drink each. :) > I am very touched! hee And each of my clones would be honored to be in the presence of such an accomplished writer's clone. I would only hope each of your clones would have a Barbara clone as their partner. : ) John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:55:25 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:55:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Open Manufacturing] Re: Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903241513h2e0bcde1q990b67707267decd@mail.gmail.com> References: <55ad6af70903240020h56471bebs2c1eaf1649a8c8a5@mail.gmail.com> <55ad6af70903241513h2e0bcde1q990b67707267decd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > Under what authority were those 137 properties designed? This reeks of > bullshitting. Huh? This is Freitas authority. I hold that pretty high. Me? I'm a bullshitter, no question. But Freitas? > There's no master data set of all possible manufacturing > processes. And I have yet to find a partial data set of said > manufacturing processes (except perhaps the recent one I sent to the > list re: thermodynamic analyses), which would be somewhat useful in a > slightly different way. But anyway, there are certain properties of > self-replication that need to be well-defined, otherwise you're just > flinging poo like a monkey. > This is why Freitas put a significant > amount of time thinking about 'vitamins'. I don't mean to be rude, but which is it: is he a bullshitter or a citation-worthy source? I think we can both agree that Freitas is a serious authority -- a demi-god maybe, but no god. ;-) > That's the thing- it either self-replicates > or it doesn't, none of this "it almost self-replicates!" nonsense. Strongly disagree on this. In my early enthusiasm for the concept of self-replication, I was a "100% closure" purist. No more. I went back to economic basics: all costs are labor costs (anything that doesn't look like labor is, in fact, just labor repackaged). It is precisely because of this that self-rep (or any transitional intermediate) represents the next step, a quantum improvement in industrial productivity through a radical reduction in labor costs per widget. But of course you know this. The cost of any replicated SRMS module (one basic unit) = [(the design cost (human labor) + programming cost (human labor) + materials (labor repackaged) + construction cost (human labor) for the first "seed"/module)] divided by the total number of modules.. As the number of modules increases -- to an arbitrarily large module count -- and absent any additional human inputs (more labor) the unit cost drops to an "almost" arbitrarily small amount. The lower limit determined by the minimum human labor costs -- the three cost factors listed above -- for creating the first seed. The situation is the same if you expand the cost envelope to include the costs of human labor involved in start-up, shakedown, and optimization. But this is an idealized condition -- an "upper bound", a theoretical construct -- the purest, most extreme version of self-replication. More than is necessary to tap into the productivity advantages that self-rep offers. So I reasonably and rationally gave up my "purist"("fundamentalist"?) rigidity, and adopted a more relaxed view regarding parts closure and post-implementation human inputs. The bottom line -- the crossover to competitive viability -- is not parts closure or autonomous function, but whether the system beats conventional tech in productivity -- dollars per widget. So the new cost basis for the reality-based (such as it is) SRMS (vs the purist ?ber-SRMS) includes additional labor-based costs: ((per module vitamin cost) + (per module "operating/operator" costs per unit time)) x module count = additional system cost per unit time Of course, longer-term optimization efforts would seek to minimize "operator" duties/costs. My point is: you can say it's binary, define yourself into a corner, and say "That's not a self-replicating system." Fair enough. And correct. But it just seals you out of exploiting the advantages of "impure" first generation human-assisted self-rep. Baby, bathwater. > I don't know if we've ever had our pow-wow here on the list > about whether or not partial self-replication is worth our time, or > the different thinking going into that, so if anyone wants to raise up > a few comments, that'd be neat. > > Anywho, time to quote Freitas. > > """ > Consider, for example, the problem of parts closure. Imagine that the > entire factory and all of its machines are broken down into their > component parts. If the original factory cannot fabricate every one of > these items, then parts closure does not exist and the system is not > fully self-replicating . > a system > which achieves complete "closure" is not "closed" or "isolated" in the > classical sense. Materials, energy, and information still flow into > the system which is thermodynamically "open"; these flows are of > indigenous origin and may be managed autonomously by the SRS itself > without need for direct human intervention. > > Closure theory. For replicating machine systems, complete closure is > theoretically quite plausible; no fundamental or logical > impossibilities have yet been identified. ****************************** >> As a race to the next stage of industrial production, it can easily >> boil down to the first one out of the starting blocks. ?Get enough of >> a lead before the rest of the world figures out the implications, and >> they'll never catch up. ?And, regarding design choices, if you can >> generate enough excitement in the global internet-connected "game >> space", ?you can promote competition among teams whose members have >> chosen different design approaches. > I am not against competition, > but I would express caution when > comparing different design decisions, Re this competitive element, my scheme for implementation is proprietary ("It's mine, all mine! Bwahaha!") Can't discuss it in an open forum. > because some decisions are made > for totally different reasons, like in the case of reprap- it's not > really about replication, for instance- and comparing it to somebody > who is designing an artificial synthetic organic lifeform chemistry > out of, say, silicon. So while I'm not going to get worked up about > the existence of alternative designs, I'm going to very clearly make a > big stink when you're not actually working on self-replication, or > when you make erroneous claims about the capabilities of your machine > :-). A friendly big stink, of course, but still, a stink. Fair enough. And I'm committed to friendliness as well, and vigorous discussion. We share a common goal, seeking the same tech benefits, just along different paths and with different definitions. > I don't know if you're referring to the SKDB design methodology for self-replication I'm not familiar with this, will read up on it. > when you say evaluating a solution space for a 'best' > design. There's a difference between evaluating the possibility space > for *actual* designs versus selecting from those actual designs and > finding the best among them. I agree that finding the 'best' among > them at this point is a non-starter-- but at this point, we don't even > have preliminary designs for self-replicating systems, just a lot of > hand-waving. > > - Bryan > http://heybryan.org/ > 1 512 203 0507 From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 22:47:54 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:47:54 +1100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/27 Stefano Vaj : > On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: >> >> The fact that prisoners are not allowed to suicide does not seem to me >> to be because it's considered "too easy an escape", but rather because >> death is seen as a very, very bad thing. > > Nothing wrong with that, as it is a very, very bad thing the loss of > liberty, but what has it to do with allowing life prisoners to opt for > execution? They would be in the best possible position to assess their own > personal preferences, wouldn't they? I don't know of any societies where people are told, "OK, fine" when they announce they wish to kill themselves, at least not unless they fulfil certain strict criteria. The same considerations that apply to other suicidal people should also apply to prisoners. -- Stathis Papaioannou From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 23:17:12 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:17:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:15 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee wrote: > > [Keith:] >>> This is in the context of mining the moon. I don't see how >>> to do it. I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions >>> and ship loads of equipment. >> >> Nice challenge. How about hydroponics? Is the capital chain >> really so long that the mining, smelting, and so on couldn't >> be done, say, with your billion $ or so up front to start it >> off? > > But but but--Jeff has already said twice that he's talking about > *telefactored bots* on the moon... Well, *I'm* talking about indefinite survival. And Keith's original question was What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter Island. True, he did add that part about the context of the question being about mining the moon---and Jeff probably indeed had yet another context in mind. But one classic question is about merely *surviving* indefinitely. E.g., Biosphere II. I did realize driving home from work that I guess Easter Island was specified because it *doesn't* have minerals worth a damn, which makes things harder. But if there is a way to survive indefinitely, then we've bought as much time as we need. Eventually, I claim, that so long as the gene pool doesn't go down hill, ways will be figured out to make one tiny advance after another. I'd bet that if you turned loose 500 Keith Hensons on Easter Island with one billion dollars of equipment and 5000 nubile and fertile young women, you could count on coming back in a couple of centuries and finding a very advanced society indeed. Of course, we should defer to Bryan's great post, and the link he's provided to all the thought that people have put into these questions. (In other words, for your last question below, my uninformed guess is "no".) Lee > (but presumably with some fairly wily computer programs on board; I can > imagine a large central thing as well with lots of grunt, but that might > well be less realistic these days than a cloud or swarm). No humans need > be harmed in the making of this Luna! > > Objection 1: it's too soon, we don't have good enough bots. Reply: > Moore's Law and lots of dollars. Objection 2: you can't make anything > useful out of dirt without ample water. Reply: erm, well, good point. Is > it a killer objection? > > Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 23:26:32 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:26:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Power sats and the industrial development of space (was global waming again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jeff Davis wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Keith Henson wrote: >> >>> We don't have teleporated robots of this sort, >> >> Spirit and Opportunity. ?Give 'em general purpose manipulators (ie hands). > > Ok, and then what do you do with the hands? Use the substantial tool set brought along to start working the ground. I understand that the lack of details is offensive, but I have a special attitude regarding methods and goals. The stated goal is not the goal. A succesful business model is overarching. So the process is the goal. If I could put a thousand teleoperate-able robo-hamsters on the moon, I would operate them as a combination 21st century Tom Sawyer fence-painting slash geek theme park,...if that generates revenue,.. on the way to other goals. Profitability is goal one. >>> not to mention the >>> speed of light delay problem. >> >> Three seconds. ?Makes things interesting. ?Hardly a show stopper. >> >>> ?But if we did an they were there, what >>> are you going to *do* with them? >> >> I don't want to be rude, but aren't you being just a bit obstinate? >> I'm good with the notion that as a real, accomplished engineering >> professional, you feel compelled to thresh this recreational futurism >> with a reality-based flail, but could you try to be a bit more >> supportive. > > If this is about "recreational futurism" and unrelated to reality I > should quit responding and try to find another mailing list. ?I > recently dropped off a list for that reason. No need to dump the list, just ignore my silliness. > >>> You can't just say ":mine the moon," >> >> "Mine the moon." ? ?Hmmmm. ?That wasn't very hard. >> >>> the moon is effectively dirt. >> >> As is the Earth. > > Look I have worked all over the engineering profession, exploration, > mining, extractive metallurgy, i.e., milling ore and extracting > metals, copper and aluminum smelters, and oil refining to name a few. > We DON'T mine dirt. ?Geological processes have concentrated metals. > We mine copper down to about half a percent because it is so useful > and the energy needed to concentrate it is relatively small. > (The main power draw is the ball mills and they draw in the range of a 10 kWh/ton.) Interestingly, we won't need any ball mills, so I guess that saves the main power draw. The entire process just took a great leap forward re energy effciency. More than 60% of the regolith is composed of particles less than 0.1 millimeter in diameter: http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/tadp/1995/spects/environment.html "The surface of the Moon has been subject to billions of years of collisions with both small and large asteroidal and cometary materials. Over time, these impact processes have pulverized and "gardened" the surface materials, forming a fine grained layer termed "regolith". The thickness of the regolith varies between 2 meters beneath the younger maria, to up to 20 meters beneath the oldest surfaces of the lunar highlands." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Moon#Regolith > With lunar materials you might substitute aluminum for the conductors > and fiberglass for PVC insulation. ?But that means you have to reduce > aluminum and draw it into wires. ?I have a decent understanding of the > wet chemistry needed to produced reasonably pure aluminum oxide from > "dirt." ?You have to recycle the reagents especially the water. I was under the impression that there are alternate methods of refining, such as the pyrolitic technique described in this article Robot, Build Thyself http://discovermagazine.com/1995/oct/robotbuildthysel569 > Then you have to reduce the aluminum. ?All the processes new and old > use up carbon. ?Since there is virtually none on the moon, you have to > recycle carbon oxides back into solid carbon. "Virtually none" = approx 100 ppm in the regolith, perhaps it can be extracted at some stage in the larger refining process. Also, from the utex link above we learn: "Although the exact composition of the lunar interior is unknown,..." Could there be other sources of carbon somewhere -- at some depth -- not yet discovered. For a long time it was thought there was no water. Then it was found. I'm thinking primordial carbon. >I know how to do that as well. > > But we are already talking mind boggling complications, a chemical > plant with more complexity than an oil refinery and a set of weaving > machines to insulate the wire. > >>But as Freitas lays out in KSRM >> >> "Perhaps the most important message of the Fallacy of the Substrate is >> that the replicative capacity of a replicator cannot be defined by >> specifying the replicator in isolation from its surroundings. >> Replicative capacity can only be defined by simultaneously specifying >> both the replicator and the input substrate upon which the replicator >> will be required to operate." > > Does this tell you anything useful? ?If so, what? The moon is not the earth. Industrial processes and approaches must reflect this reality. My wife and I are fond of something we call the Lemonade Principle. When a plan goes awry, we immediately look to see how this can be turned to our advantage: how can we make lemonade from our lemons? When we look at it this way we often discover substantial benefits and opportunities. Viewed this way, the moon should be a case of virgin territory with substantial low-hanging fruit of various types, and of course, the inevitable lemons. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From lcorbin at rawbw.com Thu Mar 26 23:29:54 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:29:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090324213353.0263e3f0@satx.rr.com> <49CAFA38.6030605@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CC0FF2.4000309@rawbw.com> BillK wrote: > On 3/26/09, Lee Corbin wrote: >> Er, Bill, I hope that you realize that this would mean >> armed resistance. >> >> Are you advocating that these peaceful islanders actually >> create a war department, organize, but weapons from >> international arms dealers, tax their own citizens? >> >> And, if too many free riders "didn't want nothin' to do >> with no war", use conscription?? >> >> Come now. Wouldn't it be better to just practice civil >> disobedience and wait for the Europeans and slave traders >> to realize the errors of their ways? > > :) Thanks for the smiley! I'm glad you were amused, even if some other allegedly snarky types were annoyed. > I don't think they were particularly peaceful. The South Sea > islanders fought on every other island, so they probably liked a good > brawl on Easter Island as well.... Yes, :-). > Although most of the spearheads found on the island seem to have a > later date when they were resisting the attacks of the slaver ships. > > To support Damien, Why? > rat bones are the most prolific bones excavated on > Easter Island. The settlers were eating the rats > as one of their food sources. > Hunt claims that rat remains indicate that the rodent population > spiked at 20 million from 1200 to 1300 and then dropped off to a mere > 1 million after the trees were gone and their food resources > disappeared. After that, if there was little food for the rats, there > was probably little for the humans either. > > It seems reasonable to me that the human growth rate would drop in > line with the worsening environment. Human populations cannot grow > without regular supplies of food and water. At a lower growth rate and > with few resources available the population might never have been much > more than 5000. There would have been fights over the available food, > but after the rats destroyed the trees the islanders had few options > left. Yup, that's the story as told by the recent article Damien provided a link to. Alas, there never was a Golden Age, as much as people yearned for it. I'm reading the very interesting book "The Discovery of Mankind" by an exceedingly famous Mediterranean historian who has turned his all seeing eye towards Atlantic exploration. It's a fascinating story about how the Europeans projected their own images onto all the peoples they encountered (i.e. conquered). No one, however, will find too much ammunition to either sanctify or demonize the Europeans---for they, just as Easter Islanders, modern Americans, ancient Mesopotamians, Scandinavians or what have you, seem to contain the entire panoply of human virtues and vices. Lee From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:35:07 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:35:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! Message-ID: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> Somebody wrote: the upcoming monstrous energy shortage (and the >> resulting chaos and death). ### What a joke! Amongst an ongoing energy glut (see e.g. inflation-adjusted crude oil prices almost as low as in 1948! - http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm), there are cries of doom, gloom and general gnashing of teeth. The only shortage we have is common sense. Rafal From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 01:19:22 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:19:22 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/27 Rafal Smigrodzki : > Somebody wrote: > > the upcoming monstrous energy shortage (and the >>> resulting chaos and death). > > ### What a joke! Amongst an ongoing energy glut (see e.g. > inflation-adjusted crude oil prices almost as low as in 1948! - > http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm), > there are cries of doom, gloom and general gnashing of teeth. > > The only shortage we have is common sense. That there is a glut now does not necessarily mean there will always be a glut. It is possible that production of a commodity outstrips demand this year even though the commodity will completely run out next year. -- Stathis Papaioannou From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 01:51:16 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:51:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/27 Rafal Smigrodzki : >> Somebody wrote: >> >> the upcoming monstrous energy shortage (and the >>>> resulting chaos and death). >> >> ### What a joke! Amongst an ongoing energy glut (see e.g. >> inflation-adjusted crude oil prices almost as low as in 1948! - >> http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm), >> there are cries of doom, gloom and general gnashing of teeth. >> >> The only shortage we have is common sense. > > That there is a glut now does not necessarily mean there will always > be a glut. It is possible that production of a commodity outstrips > demand this year even though the commodity will completely run out > next year. > ### If there was even the remote possibility of this happening in the foreseeable future (i.e. before the singularity wipes us out), oil futures would be shooting through the roof, and they aren't. Rafal From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 02:23:41 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:23:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903261923x676d7ce8q92822a061a1438c0@mail.gmail.com> What I used to hear from various news sources was that by around 2040, we better have oil well on it's way to being replaced by renewable energy sources, or else civilization would have to *very painfully* tighten it's belt (but the "human die-off in the billions" idea is new to me). I've read that there are massive offshore oil deposits along the northern Russian borders, but that developing and maintaining them will be so expensive that it could never be confused with the current cheap energy we enjoy. I suppose the Russians will get their chance to indulge their military spending urges when they (or those they lease the deposits to) get them tapped. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 02:34:32 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:34:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it><580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it><580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87D67CB0672D4DF59ABABA105EBD3DE0@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou .... > > I don't know of any societies where people are told, "OK, > fine" when they announce they wish to kill themselves, at > least not unless they fulfil certain strict criteria. The > same considerations that apply to other suicidal people > should also apply to prisoners... Stathis Papaioannou One can imagine certain cases, such as when a person has committed a really foul act and is deeply remorseful to the point of misery, and is facing a loooong sentence, and has money and is a believer in cryonics. If those criteria are met, it seems merciful to offer the prisoner cryonic suspension at her current age. Reasoning that she might have a better chance at eventual reanimation if she is frozen relatively young and healthy, she might opt for the more controlled conditions. This would compare favorably to the very real possibility of dying quietly in her cell, not being discovered for many hours, or being beaten to death by another prisoner, possibly damaging the brain, etc. Society would save big bucks. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 03:10:37 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:10:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <87D67CB0672D4DF59ABABA105EBD3DE0@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> <87D67CB0672D4DF59ABABA105EBD3DE0@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670903262010t67b135ecu1d3bb40024a98d36@mail.gmail.com> > > > .... > One can imagine certain cases, such as when a person has committed a really > foul act and is deeply remorseful to the point of misery, and is facing a > loooong sentence, and has money and is a believer in cryonics. If those > criteria are met, it seems merciful to offer the prisoner cryonic > suspension > at her current age. Reasoning that she might have a better chance at > eventual reanimation if she is frozen relatively young and healthy, she > might opt for the more controlled conditions. This would compare favorably > to the very real possibility of dying quietly in her cell, not being > discovered for many hours, or being beaten to death by another prisoner, > possibly damaging the brain, etc. > > Society would save big bucks. > > spike > But is this fair, considering that other prisoners might want to do this, but don't have the money? As to the other matter, I don't see prison staff cooperating with a prisoner who wants to be cryonically suspended upon their death within the system. We can only hope that any convict/cryonaut allowed to do this, would find him/herself awakening within a culture far more just and merciful than the one we currently live in. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 03:19:32 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:19:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/27 Rafal Smigrodzki : > >>> That there is a glut now does not necessarily mean there will always >>> be a glut. It is possible that production of a commodity outstrips >>> demand this year even though the commodity will completely run out >>> next year. >>> >> ### If there was even the remote possibility of this happening in the >> foreseeable future (i.e. before the singularity wipes us out), oil >> futures would be shooting through the roof, and they aren't. > > Futures contracts are an aggregate measure of traders' guesses on > where the price will be up to a several years from now. They don't > look more than a decade ahead. In any case, by citing this as an > argument you are essentially saying, People don't act as if they > believe the oil will run out soon, therefore the oil won't run out > soon. ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. As for the longer term predictions, we know that available oil and oil alternatives are present in sufficient quantity to last at least 300 to 400 years at current consumption levels. In other words, the likelihood that humans will run out of oil is nil, since in 300 years there will be most likely no humans left anyway. Rafal From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 03:23:05 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <463D8AE9BB344728A72972B538BB2C7E@spike> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <463D8AE9BB344728A72972B538BB2C7E@spike> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903262023m51e58135ie6e4df31cb79e4e2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM, spike wrote: > > >> ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki > ... >> > >> ### If there was even the remote possibility of this >> happening in the foreseeable future (i.e. before the >> singularity wipes us out)... Rafal > > > Wipes us out? ?All this time I thought the singularity would wipe us in. > ### You mean, upload into polises? Who knows, maybe, but I would bet my money on the UFAI dismantling us for feedstock. Much more plausible. Rafal From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 02:56:37 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:56:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <463D8AE9BB344728A72972B538BB2C7E@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki ... > > > ### If there was even the remote possibility of this > happening in the foreseeable future (i.e. before the > singularity wipes us out)... Rafal Wipes us out? All this time I thought the singularity would wipe us in. spike From jrd1415 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 03:37:12 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:37:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] exxon bad guy? punishment In-Reply-To: <49CB0845.9080606@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0845.9080606@rawbw.com> Message-ID: Enron? On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Spike writes > >>> ...On Behalf Of Lee Corbin >> >> .... >>> >>> Next will you say that Exxon executives don't steal, they just have an >>> acquisitive nature towards their financial accounts? >> >> .... >>> >>> Lee >> >> Hi Lee, is there an Exxon biggie stealing? ?Oy vey, I trusted those guys. >> Do post a link, so I can evaluate and possibly sell my Exxon stock. > > Huh? Maybe I'm confused. (I don't follow this stuff much > anymore.) I thought some Exxon guys went to jail. No? > Someone else? > > Well---into my tirade substitute X, where X is the > famous scandal-ridden corporation of the last years. > > Thanks, > Lee > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 03:45:13 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:45:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] un rules against blasphemers, seeks to curb criticism of religion In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com><49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C192B70730143A9AD9839AFDDD0ADFF@spike> The good news is that criticism of Presbyterians is still perfectly legal: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRHXSIoJJdXQpG3kPrRO2LWMnW TAD975SKN01 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 04:30:08 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:30:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Lee Corbin wrote: > > Damien Broderick wrote: > >> At 10:15 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee wrote: >> >> [Keith:] >>>> >>>> This is in the context of mining the moon. ?I don't see how >>>> to do it. ?I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions >>>> and ship loads of equipment. >>> >>> Nice challenge. How about hydroponics? Food wasn't much of a problem till they built up a large population and lost the means to go to sea and fish. It is also possible they ruined the fertility of the land and the plant nutrients washed into the sea. >>> Is the capital chain >>> really so long that the mining, smelting, and so on couldn't >>> be done, say, with your billion $ or so up front to start it >>> off? >> >> But but but--Jeff has already said twice that he's talking about >> *telefactored bots* on the moon... > > Well, *I'm* talking about indefinite survival. And Keith's > original question was > > ? What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with > ? human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little > ? charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter > ? Island. The key point was "modern technological society" since that's what the goal is for robot colonization of the moon. > True, he did add that part about the context of the question > being about mining the moon---and Jeff probably indeed had > yet another context in mind. > > But one classic question is about merely *surviving* indefinitely. > E.g., Biosphere II. I did realize driving home from work that > I guess Easter Island was specified because it *doesn't* have > minerals worth a damn, which makes things harder. It's different but not worse than the moon in that respect. It does have water, air, and it had carbon for reducing metals. You could probably make concrete, it probably had a little bog iron in the craters. > But if there is a way to survive indefinitely, then we've > bought as much time as we need. Eventually, I claim, that > so long as the gene pool doesn't go down hill, ways will > be figured out to make one tiny advance after another. > I'd bet that if you turned loose 500 Keith Hensons on > Easter Island with one billion dollars of equipment and > 5000 nubile and fertile young women, you could count on > coming back in a couple of centuries and finding a very > advanced society indeed. Hmm. I really doubt it. Not even with 500 imortals. $ billion is a thousand million. Split 5000 ways that won't even buy a decent house in California, but it is not the money I have really severe doubts about being able to sustain even a modest technological society with the resources you could get from Easter Island, at least with the technology level we have today. It's entirely possible that a nanotechnology based society could though. Incidentally, about 4000 Tasmanians wasn't enough to sustain their level of culture and the history of smaller isolated groups indicates they die out. We know the industrial base does replicate itself on earth as well as the human population that is part of it. I am not saying it could not be done on the moon or Easter Island, but I don't know how. Keith > > Of course, we should defer to Bryan's great post, and the > link he's provided to all the thought that people have > put into these questions. > > (In other words, for your last question below, my uninformed > guess is "no".) > > Lee > >> (but presumably with some fairly wily computer programs on board; I can >> imagine a large central thing as well with lots of grunt, but that might >> well be less realistic these days than a cloud or swarm). No humans need be >> harmed in the making of this Luna! >> >> Objection 1: it's too soon, we don't have good enough bots. Reply: Moore's >> Law and lots of dollars. Objection 2: you can't make anything useful out of >> dirt without ample water. Reply: erm, well, good point. Is it a killer >> objection? >> >> Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From lcorbin at rawbw.com Fri Mar 27 05:14:03 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:14:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> Message-ID: <49CC609B.8070503@rawbw.com> Spike wrote (in "[Exi]punishment") > If we elected the most perfect, honest, intelligent government > imaginable, what could it do? Ah, a very nice challenge. Thank you. > Could it govern away all our problems? Would it magically find > a huge pot of money no one ever discovered before, and use it > to fill our gas tanks and pay our mortgages? No, and no. > Imagine tens of thousands of clones of yourself, holding > every political office, so the government will do whatever > you think is right. Me? That's absurd. I have an inadequate temperament and insufficient knowledge about how laws are written, committees overseen, and justice formally administered. Besides, those things don't interest me at all, and my IQ is never above 60 when I must act or opine on matters that don't interest me. (If you don't believe that, just ask the guy who does my taxes to estimate my IQ, or simply recall that I have only the vaguest idea of what the difference is between Exxon and Enron.) So instead, I'll alter your scenario mildly by reducing it to two new axioms: (1) all politicians are drawn at random every few years from concerned, interested, and knowledgeable citizens who have no connections with any special interest groups or lobbyists, (2) all politicians are scrupulously honest. In that case we would still have many problems because (a) there would still be huge ideological divides (b) there would still be some problems, such as the nature of the free-market business cycle, may be more or less incapable of complete solution. Still, the effects would be absolutely and indisputably marvelous. The lobbyists would suddenly find themselves without power, ditto the corporations, ditto the rich. Ditto the unions, ditto all the political action groups--- from the pro-choice to the pro-life, from the Gay and Lesbian movement to the anti-gay organizations (whatever they call themselves). This would be sensational in the extreme! Now, if you couple that with complete honesty on the part of the politicians---and have them point blank refuse all campaign contributions over $100---then ideological differences or not, a nation would be on its way to healing itself. Of course, because of (a) there would still be a chance of succumbing to socialism and the belief that in principle the Post Office and the DMV can be better run than the supermarkets and the dry-cleaning firms. (Ah, wouldn't it be great if the Department of Motor Vehicles and the Post Office were as eager for your business, and as solicitous, as are the latter? Have you ever, ever, ever had to wait as long in line at a supermarket or drycleaner as you do at the DMV or the government Post Office?) Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Fri Mar 27 05:22:31 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:22:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> Message-ID: <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Stathis also wrote (in "[Exi]punishment") > If government action can make people poorer then different government > action, whether that means increasing taxes and services or decreasing > them, should be able to have the opposite effect, no? I'll grant that government can *improve* things in only very rare instances, and solely as a function of an ambient economic atmosphere and current cultural height. For example, in the early 1800s no one could finance the Erie Canal because the beneficiaries suffered from the free-rider problem. It repaid society enormously when the state of New York (and IIRC the federal government) made the project possible. But for each such success, there are many failures. Witness the disasterous cross- continental railroad of the early 1860's. It's widely ballyhooed, but it was a disaster. The corruption financed by special interests totally sacrificed quality for speed, cost the taxpayers millions, and gave the railroad corporations immense riches (by way of land grants) and power. > Of course there would still be winners and losers. > Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly > by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. > And good for him! Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to hell. And if all those stories are to be believed, then in addition, to this day he still causes mischief and the corruption of souls. And if there is anything we need less of, it's corruption! Lee From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 05:31:22 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:31:22 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/27 Rafal Smigrodzki : > ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are > willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be > taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the > know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. If the amount of money spent on a belief is a measure of how seriously that belief should be taken, what do you make of religion? -- Stathis Papaioannou From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 05:42:24 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:42:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shoot em off and grow new ones In-Reply-To: <3C192B70730143A9AD9839AFDDD0ADFF@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com><49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> <3C192B70730143A9AD9839AFDDD0ADFF@spike> Message-ID: <7F20C38BB6894D639315F83E9C8EA9C1@spike> If they manage to do this, I will take back everything I said about government funded medical research: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510824,00.html The question is, can they cause it to grow back bigger than the original? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 05:52:14 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:52:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70903262252t1fefaa93w9e7f12c953e8d52e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > We know the industrial base does replicate itself on earth as well as > the human population that is part of it. ?I am not saying it could not > be done on the moon or Easter Island, but I don't know how. Given that we know (do we?) that it can replicate itself on earth, then we know that we should simply copy all of the designs for all of the machines, all of the processes and skills that go into making each of the components, and go from there, and then start making modifications for a resource-constrained environment and i.e., not assuming bountiful oil supplies or otherwise including some constraint that on the moon or otherwise off earth is ridiculous but when on earth isn't too particularly ridiculous for the time being barring superdisaster. But, because of the nature of the technical information as it currently exists- or perhaps it doesn't exist- questions like these can't easily be asked. How would you preliminarily go about answering these questions? Maybe you have some better ideas than I've put forward, I'd like to hear :-). - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From lcorbin at rawbw.com Fri Mar 27 06:09:57 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:09:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> Dagon writes > So you come to the conclusion that the US is overrun by "criminal > gangs". In certain areas, yes. > You then go and attribute a cause - "free will" and > "incompetent politicians". No, I attribute it to liberals (what we call over here people like you). I attribute it to the mindset that can no longer distinguish between a lawfully run society based upon freedom and liberty, and a society whose infrastructure is poor and whose people are ruthless. Challenge: give me any historical or current example of a better behaved society than that of, say, Iowa or Minnesota, (which are for the better part free of the contamination that afflicts places like New Jersey and New York, and which are no more corrupt than Sweden or Iceland). Of course, to you, it is an absolute tragedy if someone freely chooses to not work or contribute in any way, and so starves to death, a tragedy that is not at all the individual's fault, but merely the fault of society. You really should read Pinker's "The Blank Slate" to find out the latest research concerning the delusion of Rousseau (and everyone since, like Marx) that we all start off as blank slates and that all evils are attributable to the environment. It's just not true, Dagon. > You seem to conclude that ineptitude of will > is the cause for a collapse of infrastructure > and the formation of gangs. Well, that may be literally true, but it does no good. No, the problems stems from people who are unwilling to acknowledge that people are not blank slates, and in many cases come into this world with bad dispositions. Even more importantly, it comes from a failure of institutions based upon liberty, the free market, and capitalism. This is true anywhere you look in the world. Africa is the way it is because the world suffers from an inequality of capitalism. (This is the *main*, but not the only reason that the countries of Africa differ from those of East Asia.) > You then go and assert that "the people", and you > suggest you can make a clear and precise, almost > Berlusconi-esque incission separation the meek > from the gangbanger, and are sure that if this > "noble citizenry" (you can recognize the good ones - > they were white robes... What you say here has a lot of truth. It is *extremely* dangerous for concerned citizens to take the law into their own hands for precisely the reasons you state. Look, in fact, what happened in the French Revolution. It's easy for the power-mad to take over in many, many cases. But not all. You don't want to read about the history of the San Francisco vigilantes, do you? Nor do you want to read Pinker's "The Blank Slate", because actual knowledge of these elements would weaken your ideological conviction. > This week the EU president said : America is on the road to Hell > . The EU president is entirely correct. The policies favored by the Democrats and Obama (which are exactly the same policies that would have been followed by McCain and the republicans) ignore the principles of government non-intervention and the unconstrained operation of the free market. If companies fail, then they fail, the idea of being "too big to fail" being simply a failure to admit that short term severe pain leading back to health is better than protracted (but less severe) pain leading to total government regulation of everything. > In the above example - the situation is unsalvagable. Once you let a > society rot, allow the formation of an underclass that has > absolutely no meaningful association with society, cannot care for > itself, yet is completely dependent on the resources of > society to survive - then you have created the basic requirements for > banditry. I totally agree with you! Conditions in the big cities should *never* have been allowed to get out of hand. The corruption should never have been tolerated, (e.g. Chicago 1850-present). As soon as recognizable underclasses begin to form, they ought to have been either massively deported, or subjected to resettlement on reservations, where they'd be compelled to go back to agriculture or any kind of honest toil in order to survive. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Fri Mar 27 06:19:05 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 23:19:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <49CABE43.5060706@libero.it> Message-ID: <49CC6FD9.6080308@rawbw.com> Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/26 Dagon Gmail : > >> So communists can't be trusted to keep their paws from the cookie jar. Then >> the fascists >> raided the kitchen and pigged out. And now the capitalists have been caught >> chowing down >> on the green stuff. What system will make absolutely sure there aren't >> people so far removed >> from accountability and oversight that they, drunk with entitlement, start >> binging and >> partying on a boat? > > No system of government can be trusted absolutely. My philosophically > preferred system is anarchism, but I'm not sure that can be trusted > either, since the communists, fascists or capitalists might take over. Yes, I totally agree. Moreover, no system of government will work well if the character of the people (a function of their culture) is inadequate. As one of America's founders put it: To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. -James Madison, Lee From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Mar 27 06:25:54 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 01:25:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> At 08:57 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: >What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with >human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little >charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter >Island. This is in the context of mining the moon. Hang on, cobber. That might have been what you were looking for, but what you *said* you were looking for was this: >If you can propose a technical >path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >be most interested. Hence the points raised about the mess of the historical Easter Islanders arguably being due to ru8naway rat populations, introduced diseases and armed invaders. None of these feature in exploiting the moon, luckily, except possibly for mutated diseases--and not even those if it's done by telefactor. Damien Broderick From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 06:29:53 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:29:53 +1100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/27 Lee Corbin : >> Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly >> by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. >> And good for him! > > Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to > hell. And if all those stories are to be believed, then > in addition, to this day he still causes mischief and > the corruption of souls. And if there is anything we > need less of, it's corruption! Lucifer was also the archetypal rebel. What annoys me about religion (apart from the fact that it isn't true) is that we are expected to submit to, worship, praise, obey, love, adore etc. God simply because we are his creatures - or else. I think there is something noble in characters like Lucifer or Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov who accept that God exists but still reject him. -- Stathis Papaioannou From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 06:45:37 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:15:37 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903262345p68f30a53v71adb6488b5394c0@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 Damien Broderick : > At 10:15 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Lee wrote: > > [Keith:] >>> >>> This is in the context of mining the moon. ?I don't see how >>> to do it. ?I don't know if I could do it on a budget of many billions >>> and ship loads of equipment. >> >> Nice challenge. How about hydroponics? Is the capital chain >> really so long that the mining, smelting, and so on couldn't >> be done, say, with your billion $ or so up front to start it >> off? > > But but but--Jeff has already said twice that he's talking about > *telefactored bots* on the moon, directed or perhaps overseen from earth > (but presumably with some fairly wily computer programs on board; I can > imagine a large central thing as well with lots of grunt, but that might > well be less realistic these days than a cloud or swarm). No humans need be > harmed in the making of this Luna! > > Objection 1: it's too soon, we don't have good enough bots. Reply: Moore's > Law and lots of dollars. Objection 2: you can't make anything useful out of > dirt without ample water. Reply: erm, well, good point. Is it a killer > objection? > > Damien Broderick I think we westerners might not have good enough bots, but I bet the Japanese do. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 07:37:55 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:37:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shoot em off and grow new ones In-Reply-To: <7F20C38BB6894D639315F83E9C8EA9C1@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <2d6187670903252254n63e65fccob0a0446aab94aee9@mail.gmail.com> <3C192B70730143A9AD9839AFDDD0ADFF@spike> <7F20C38BB6894D639315F83E9C8EA9C1@spike> Message-ID: <2d6187670903270037v6b0e7acflaa3f2a8d1374141b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/26 spike > > If they manage to do this, I will take back everything I said about > government funded medical research: > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510824,00.html > > > The question is, can they cause it to grow back bigger than the original? > > spike > > I heard that supposedly the Russians have done this. A factory worker had a run in with some machinery and was in dire need of some applied regenerative medicine. But *exactly* how the accident happened has me scratching my head... When a nation has a huge arsenal of phallic ICBM's like they do, you know they've got issues. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 07:58:32 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:58:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903270058v250b523fm8f5018505d157ed8@mail.gmail.com> Rafal wrote: ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. As for the longer term predictions, we know that available oil and oil alternatives are present in sufficient quantity to last at least 300 to 400 years at current consumption levels. In other words, the likelihood that humans will run out of oil is nil, since in 300 years there will be most likely no humans left anyway. >>> 300 to 400 hundred years worth of oil left at current consumption levels? Please provide links supporting this claim. Keith has talked about humanity running out of "cheap fossil fuels" and that is different from having centuries worth of the much harder to reach and/or refine oil ($$$) to survive on. Why can't we agree on anything? LOL! John ; ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 10:01:52 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:01:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/09, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### If there was even the remote possibility of this happening in the > foreseeable future (i.e. before the singularity wipes us out), oil > futures would be shooting through the roof, and they aren't. > Haven't you noticed? The sky has already fallen. Oil prices had a huge peak at the peak of the bubble. Then collapsed as the economy collapsed. The world is now in a multi-year depression with over-capacity in almost all industries. Industrial production and oil burning will not recover for many years yet. Oil futures are showing a small expected rise during the future depression years as they are *hoping* for a slow recovery. The next, say, five years will be 'make-do-and-mend' years. With replacement power sources coming on line in future years, electric cars, solar power, mini windmills on every house, etc. future expected oil usage has dropped, therefore extending the life of existing reserves. If few people use oil any more, the reserves will last for ever! BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 11:19:26 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:19:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903270419n5157e87fx250454816d27cb7e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > I don't know of any societies where people are told, "OK, fine" when > they announce they wish to kill themselves, at least not unless they > fulfil certain strict criteria. The same considerations that apply to > other suicidal people should also apply to prisoners. > Well, no ordinary citizen is subject to the efforts and restrictions deployed to avoid inmates' suicide. But my point was: since it is debatable whether a life sentence is better or worse than a death sentence, and/or what purpose exactly exists that may justify serving it from a societatal or individual POV, what's would be wrong in offering a choice? Aren't we all pro-choice, after all? :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 11:49:01 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:49:01 +1100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/27 Lee Corbin : > No, I attribute it to liberals (what we call over here > people like you). I attribute it to the mindset that > can no longer distinguish between a lawfully run society > based upon freedom and liberty, and a society whose > infrastructure is poor and whose people are ruthless. How are the liberals responsible for that? > Challenge: give me any historical or current example > of a better behaved society than that of, say, Iowa > or Minnesota, (which are for the better part free of > the contamination that afflicts places like New Jersey > and New York, and which are no more corrupt than > Sweden or Iceland). So what's the essential difference between the well-behaved and badly behaved states? > Of course, to you, it is an absolute tragedy if someone > freely chooses to not work or contribute in any way, > and so starves to death, a tragedy that is not at all > the individual's fault, but merely the fault of society. I must admit that prior to joining this list I didn't think that anyone seriously questioned the idea that one of the main purposes of civilised society was to provide for the basic needs of its citizens. I knew there was debate about exactly which services should be provided, how they would be funded, and so on, but not that it might be wrong to have any public services at all. So I suppose this is just one of those matters where we will reach an impasse due to having have different basic principles. > You really should read Pinker's "The Blank Slate" to > find out the latest research concerning the delusion > of Rousseau (and everyone since, like Marx) that we > all start off as blank slates and that all evils are > attributable to the environment. It's just not true, > Dagon. If personality is more inherited than environmental, then that means the evils of the world can't be mainly due to personality. Otherwise what genetic catastrophe would explain the behaviour of the German people under the Nazis, for example? >> You seem to conclude that ineptitude of will is the cause for a collapse >> of infrastructure > >> and the formation of gangs. > > Well, that may be literally true, but it does no good. > No, the problems stems from people who are unwilling > to acknowledge that people are not blank slates, and > in many cases come into this world with bad dispositions. > > Even more importantly, it comes from a failure of > institutions based upon liberty, the free market, > and capitalism. This is true anywhere you look in > the world. Africa is the way it is because the world > suffers from an inequality of capitalism. (This is > the *main*, but not the only reason that the countries > of Africa differ from those of East Asia.) There are plenty of examples of third world countries where the government does everything it can to suppress any activity that might be construed as impeding business, for example by eliminating trade unionists or other liberal/lefty types, not to mention refraining from spending any money on public services, and these countries are a total mess. >> You then go and assert that "the people", and you suggest you can make a >> clear and precise, almost >> Berlusconi-esque incission separation the meek > >> from the gangbanger, and are sure that if this >> >> "noble citizenry" (you can recognize the good ones - >> they were white robes... > > What you say here has a lot of truth. It is *extremely* > dangerous for concerned citizens to take the law into > their own hands for precisely the reasons you state. > Look, in fact, what happened in the French Revolution. > It's easy for the power-mad to take over in many, many > cases. But not all. You don't want to read about the > history of the San Francisco vigilantes, do you? Nor > do you want to read Pinker's "The Blank Slate", because > actual knowledge of these elements would weaken your > ideological conviction. > > >> This week the EU president said : America is on the road to Hell >> . > > The EU president is entirely correct. The policies favored > by the Democrats and Obama (which are exactly the same > policies that would have been followed by McCain and the > republicans) ignore the principles of government non-intervention > and the unconstrained operation of the free market. If companies > fail, then they fail, the idea of being "too big to fail" being > simply a failure to admit that short term severe pain leading > back to health is better than protracted (but less severe) > pain leading to total government regulation of everything. > >> In the above example - the situation is unsalvagable. Once you let a >> society rot, allow the formation of an underclass that has >> absolutely no meaningful association with society, cannot care for itself, >> yet is completely dependent on the resources of >> society to survive - then you have created the basic requirements for >> banditry. > > I totally agree with you! Conditions in the big cities > should *never* have been allowed to get out of hand. > The corruption should never have been tolerated, (e.g. > Chicago 1850-present). As soon as recognizable underclasses > begin to form, they ought to have been either massively > deported, or subjected to resettlement on reservations, > where they'd be compelled to go back to agriculture or > any kind of honest toil in order to survive. You seem to be saying that such government intervention would be - what? a lesser constraint on liberty? - than regulating banks. -- Stathis Papaioannou From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 13:58:40 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:58:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/27 Rafal Smigrodzki : > >> ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are >> willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be >> taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the >> know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. > > If the amount of money spent on a belief is a measure of how seriously > that belief should be taken, what do you make of religion? > ### Good question. Religion appears to fulfill some basic needs that many people feel, and their generosity is an expression of that. However, for the vast majority of religious people, it is a service they buy, not an investment made to increase their future earnings. Religion is in a similar infotainment category to romance novels, or ESPN subscriptions, and comparing it to oil futures investment would a be a category error. Rafal From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 14:34:00 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:34:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > ...On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki ... > > If the amount of money spent on a belief is a measure of > how seriously > > that belief should be taken, what do you make of religion? > > > ### Good question. Religion appears to fulfill some basic > needs that many people feel, and their generosity is an > expression of that. > However, for the vast majority of religious people, it is a > service they buy, not an investment made to increase their > future earnings. > Religion is in a similar infotainment category to romance > novels, or ESPN subscriptions, and comparing it to oil > futures investment would a be a category error... Rafal Once again Rafal nails it perfectly. Religion incorporated provides the buyer with a nice environment once a week, where they can go and find nice people, who treat each other nice, dressed up in their nicest clothing, and everyone being nice. For a lot of them, this is the only time and place they go all week where they find large quantities of nice. But there is another related factor which is far too often overlooked: church is an extremely sexually charged environment. For many of the kinds of people that hang out there, this is the sexiest environment they ever see, the only place where they find large quantities of sexy. This may not ring true for many here, but it really is this way for many. When in doubt, I recommend a visit to perhaps the sexiest church of all: LDS. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:13:06 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <55ad6af70903262252t1fefaa93w9e7f12c953e8d52e@mail.gmail.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> <55ad6af70903262252t1fefaa93w9e7f12c953e8d52e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: > On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >> We know the industrial base does replicate itself on earth as well as >> the human population that is part of it. ?I am not saying it could not >> be done on the moon or Easter Island, but I don't know how. > > Given that we know (do we?) that it can replicate itself on earth, It does. I don't know what the current doubling time is, but back in the 60s it was about 20 years. Herman Kahn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Kahn (who I met at a limits to growth conference in 1975) analyzed this in figuring out how long it would take "B" country to reconstruct "A" country. "A" country was the heavy industry presumed destroyed in a thermonuclear attack, "B" country was the machine shops outside those areas. Kahn made the case that we knew roughly how long it would take since we had the historical experience. There is a hobby of bootstrapping up a machine shop from charcoal and iron ore. People have done it, but it is a daunting task. There is also the history of the industrial revolution to look back on. > then we know that we should simply copy all of the designs for all of > the machines, all of the processes and skills that go into making each > of the components, and go from there, and then start making > modifications for a resource-constrained environment and i.e., not > assuming bountiful oil supplies or otherwise including some constraint > that on the moon or otherwise off earth is ridiculous but when on > earth isn't too particularly ridiculous for the time being barring > superdisaster. But, because of the nature of the technical information > as it currently exists- or perhaps it doesn't exist- questions like > these can't easily be asked. How would you preliminarily go about > answering these questions? Maybe you have some better ideas than I've > put forward, I'd like to hear :-). The moon is a particularly hard place to build up industry. People who talk about making solar cells there typically have no idea of what it takes to reduce and purify silicon to the point it can be used to make PV cells. The plants are on a par with a small oil refinery. There might be electrochemical routes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFC_Cambridge_Process but they have not been shown to work yet and they require reasonably pure SiO2. Then you have the problem of your plant being shut down for lack of energy at least two weeks out of the month unless you put in nuclear reactors or some really big storage systems. And if you do put in reactors, how do you get rid of the waste heat? Dr. O'Neill understood this back in the late 60s, which is why his space colony proposals had the chemical processing of lunar dirt being done off the moon where you had full time sun. I am not saying it can't be done, it probably can. I am saying it's a really hard problem and that in spite of thinking about it for more than 30 years, *I* don't know how to do it. Keith From spike66 at att.net Fri Mar 27 14:52:29 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 07:52:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <240696652AB647869B021FC8ADD0C9F3@spike> > From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] > ... church is an extremely sexually charged environment. For > many of the kinds of people that hang out there, this is the > sexiest environment they ever see, the only place where they > find large quantities of sexy. spike Some of them are kind of like Bond James Bond, sexy and dangerous at the same time: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/27/pakistan.mosque.bomb/index.html spike From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:31:45 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:31:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> <55ad6af70903262252t1fefaa93w9e7f12c953e8d52e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70903270831m7db66d72h92d54ba5ae2a0f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Bryan Bishop wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >>> We know the industrial base does replicate itself on earth as well as >>> the human population that is part of it. ?I am not saying it could not >>> be done on the moon or Easter Island, but I don't know how. >> >> Given that we know (do we?) that it can replicate itself on earth, > > It does. ?I don't know what the current doubling time is, but back in > the 60s it was about 20 years. ?Herman Kahn > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Kahn (who I met at a limits to > growth conference in 1975) analyzed this in figuring out how long it > would take "B" country to reconstruct "A" country. ?"A" country was > the heavy industry presumed destroyed in a thermonuclear attack, "B" > country was the machine shops outside those areas. ?Kahn made the case > that we knew roughly how long it would take since we had the > historical experience. Interesting, I didn't know Herman Kahn put some thought into this, can you help me track down some references? I read over the Wikipedia article (briefly), and I don't see anything in particular about a scenario where $B country has to reconstruct $A country- which is something I'd really like to read about. Sounds like some fun game theory, although maybe it's just from the perspective of whether or not one should nuclearly destroy the other? > There is a hobby of bootstrapping up a machine shop from charcoal and > iron ore. ?People have done it, but it is a daunting task. ?There is > also the history of the industrial revolution to look back on. Is this the historical experience that Kahn was thinking of? That the time it takes to bootstrap a machine shop from charcoal and iron ore is the time that it takes to 'replicate' civilization? Because there's a lot of other things that aren't really in a typical machine shop that are important. Also, I'm aware of Gingery's work on bootstrapping, and Les Filip once off-handedly mentioned that there was an engineering fellow who published an improved update to Gingery's work (the name of the author I presently forget), but in the case of Gingery, he was using aluminum cans found around his city in Missouri, and a metal bucket, and an electric motor, so I don't know if you know of another reference than the gingery bootstrapping community. Are there more enthusiasts or hobbyists that I am unaware of? >> then we know that we should simply copy all of the designs for all of >> the machines, all of the processes and skills that go into making each >> of the components, and go from there, and then start making >> modifications for a resource-constrained environment and i.e., not >> assuming bountiful oil supplies or otherwise including some constraint >> that on the moon or otherwise off earth is ridiculous but when on >> earth isn't too particularly ridiculous for the time being barring >> superdisaster. But, because of the nature of the technical information >> as it currently exists- or perhaps it doesn't exist- questions like >> these can't easily be asked. How would you preliminarily go about >> answering these questions? Maybe you have some better ideas than I've >> put forward, I'd like to hear :-). > > The moon is a particularly hard place to build up industry. ?People > who talk about making solar cells there typically have no idea of what > it takes to reduce and purify silicon to the point it can be used to > make PV cells. ?The plants are on a par with a small oil refinery. > There might be electrochemical routes, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFC_Cambridge_Process but they have not > been shown to work yet and they require reasonably pure SiO2. Pulling silicon ingots is a pain in the ass. [pdf] Historical overview of silicon crystal pulling development http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/articles/historic_review_cryst_growt.pdf > Then you have the problem of your plant being shut down for lack of > energy at least two weeks out of the month unless you put in nuclear > reactors or some really big storage systems. ?And if you do put in > reactors, how do you get rid of the waste heat? ?Dr. O'Neill > understood this back in the late 60s, which is why his space colony > proposals had the chemical processing of lunar dirt being done off the > moon where you had full time sun. In an earlier email, I was trying to make the point that all of these 'grand-scheme' overviews of the way to do these engineering feats, are probably not the best- some organization with computer-aided design, even if we have to write the new software, is probably in order. Just writing about a technical process about lunar regoliths or something, isn't quite the same thing as handling a large system of equations to evaluate a proposal, for instance. > I am not saying it can't be done, it probably can. ?I am saying it's a > really hard problem and that in spite of thinking about it for more > than 30 years, ?*I* don't know how to do it. Okay. - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From jonkc at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 27 15:32:00 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:32:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: LONDON, March 27 (Reuters) - A prestigious medical journal on Friday accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS. The Lancet in an editorial called on the Pope to retract the comments made last week, saying anything less would be an immense disservice to the public and health advocates fighting to contain the disease. "When any influential person, be it a religious or political leader, makes a false scientific statement that could be devastating to the health of millions of people, they should retract or correct the public record," the editorial said. "By saying that condoms exacerbate the problem of HIV/AIDS, the Pope has publicly distorted scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine on the issue." During his first visit to Africa, the Pope told reporters that AIDS is a problem that "cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms; on the contrary, they increase it." The comment ignited a firestorm of criticism from health officials, activists and politicians who criticised that view as unrealistic, unscientific and dangerous. The Church teaches that fidelity within heterosexual marriage and abstinence are the best ways to stop AIDS. The Vatican also says condoms can lead to risky behaviour but many contest that view. Health experts say there is no scientific evidence showing that condom use spurs people to take more sexual risks and in fact studies show that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection. The AIDS virus infects an estimated 33 million people globally, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa, and has killed 25 million. There is no cure. (Reporting by Michael Kahn) From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:42:51 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:42:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903270058v250b523fm8f5018505d157ed8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903270058v250b523fm8f5018505d157ed8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903270842n33b8847i801a4fd7fe15bdc5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/27 John Grigg : > Rafal wrote: > ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are > willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be > taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the > know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. As for the longer term > predictions, we know that available oil and oil alternatives are > present in sufficient quantity to last at least 300 to 400 years at > current consumption levels. In other words, the likelihood that humans > will run out of oil is nil, since in 300 years there will be most > likely no humans left anyway. >>>> > > 300 to 400 hundred years worth of oil left at current consumption levels? > Please provide links supporting this claim. ### It was "oil and oil equivalents" - meaning coal, natural gas, shale oil, methane hydrate, all the stuff you can easily and economically transform into oil at prices only mildly higher than recent prices, meaning that we can drive and keep our system running with no significant disruption. Do I need to give you links to coal and methane reserve estimates? ------------------------------ > > Keith has talked about humanity running out of "cheap fossil fuels" and that > is different from having centuries worth of the much harder to reach and/or > refine oil ($$$) to survive on. > > Why can't we agree on anything? LOL! > ### Define "cheap fossil fuels". For me it means oil at no more than 250$/barrel, give or take a few, inflation adjusted to 2009. Significantly above that, in the absence of increases in overall incomes, there would be need to economize. Rafal From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:02:32 2009 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:02:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:57 PM 3/25/2009 -0700, Keith wrote: > >> What I was looking for is technical suggestions about how people with >> human labor, knowledge, six square miles of rocks and a little >> charcoal could implement a modern technological society on Easter >> Island. ?This is in the context of mining the moon. > > Hang on, cobber. That might have been what you were looking for, but what > you *said* you were looking for was this: > >> If you can propose a technical >> path to get the historical Easter Islanders out of their mess, I would >> be most interested. > > Hence the points raised about the mess of the historical Easter Islanders > arguably being due to runaway rat populations, introduced diseases and > armed invaders. None of these feature in exploiting the moon, luckily, > except possibly for mutated diseases--and not even those if it's done by > telefactor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Easter_Island There is general agreement that the population crashed *before* contact with Europeans, probably due to overpopulation and environmental destruction. That's the mess I was talking about. And "technical path" means making stuff like boats and windmills out of rocks and seawater. If someone came ashore with the original people who colonized the island with complete knowledge of modern technology, could they build a modern technological society from this knowledge and local resources? I consider this similar in difficulty to attempting to build up industry on the moon. Keith From kanzure at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:13:53 2009 From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:13:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <55ad6af70903270913t2f54f068pb6f0447ec678e7b5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > If someone came ashore with the original people who colonized the > island with complete knowledge of modern technology, could they build > a modern technological society from this knowledge and local > resources? ?I consider this similar in difficulty to attempting to > build up industry on the moon. The only way to solve this problem- that I know of- is to have that complete knowledge and then set up the situation with a list of resources that we know are on Easter Island. And if we're too lazy to list out all possible resources, then we can do a simulation environment where we have some distribution of material resources across a geographical region, or something, and let the technology discover some of the resources (i.e., certain spectrophotometers for figuring out what materials are made out of or what local resources are available, and other various methods). Is there a way to solve this problem without that set of complete knowledge? - Bryan http://heybryan.org/ 1 512 203 0507 From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 17:41:22 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:41:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/09, Keith Henson wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Easter_Island > > There is general agreement that the population crashed *before* > contact with Europeans, probably due to overpopulation and > environmental destruction. That's the mess I was talking about. And > "technical path" means making stuff like boats and windmills out of > rocks and seawater. > As wikipedia states, that used to be the common opinion, encouraged by Diamond's book. But Hunt's later research (plus others) is now building a different picture. This 5-page article gives a detailed explanation of Hunt's investigations and conclusions. Especially see the revised timeline diagram. The islanders did chop the large palm trees down, but the polynesian rats stopped them regrowing, as well as providing food for the islanders. Quote: The human population probably reached a maximum of about 3,000, perhaps a bit higher, around 1350 A.D. and remained fairly stable until the arrival of Europeans. The environmental limitations of Rapa Nui would have kept the population from growing much larger. By the time Roggeveen arrived in 1722, most of the island's trees were gone, but deforestation did not trigger societal collapse, as Diamond and others have argued. There is no reliable evidence that the island's population ever grew as large as 15,000 or more, and the actual downfall of the Rapanui resulted not from internal strife but from contact with Europeans. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 17:58:22 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:58:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327012103.063a2410@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903271058o75e12217x5015522f4feb24ab@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:41 PM, BillK > Nui would have kept the population from growing much larger. By the > There is no reliable evidence that the island's population ever grew > as large as 15,000 or more, and the actual downfall of the Rapanui > resulted not from internal strife but from contact with Europeans. Why, the Bioniclestell us a different story, and they are waaay more transhumanist than Jared Diamond... :-) -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:02:01 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:02:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: Apart from me being a devout atheist (and cosmicist), which will make my opinion tendentious and partisan, I have always called for a special scrutiny towards the attitude of the pope. It is allowable the IP rights holder of this particular 'jesusist' legacy has an opinion about sexual matters, but it remains eminently intolerable if this gentleman uses his considerable sway over hundreds of millions of very impressionable souls to lead these people to follow potentially arbitrary and moral rules over propriety in terms of health care. I would say that any other person who would do so, in the face of a global epidemic (and other grave concerns) would be held accountable of inciting people into high-risk "typhoid mary" behavior. When will democratic elected governments accuse this man of criminal acts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:17:26 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:17:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/09, Dagon Gmail wrote: > Apart from me being a devout atheist (and cosmicist), which will make my > opinion tendentious and partisan, I have always called for a special scrutiny > towards the attitude of the pope. It is allowable the IP rights holder of this > particular 'jesusist' legacy has an opinion about sexual matters, but it remains > eminently intolerable if this gentleman uses his considerable sway over hundreds > of millions of very impressionable souls to lead these people to follow potentially > arbitrary and moral rules over propriety in terms of health care. > Why pick on the Pope? *All* charismatic leaders should have their opinions scrutinized very carefully and only allowed if a committee of Extropians permit them. And as a committee of Extropians will never agree on anything, that will stop charismatic leaders of opinion from leading the multitude astray. :) BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Mar 27 19:25:39 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:25:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> At 08:02 PM 3/27/2009 +0100, Dagon wrote: >it remains eminently intolerable if >this gentleman uses his considerable sway over hundreds of millions of very >impressionable souls to lead these people to follow potentially >arbitrary and moral >rules over propriety in terms of health care. > >I would say that any other person who would do so, in the face of a >global epidemic >(and other grave concerns) would be held accountable of inciting >people into high-risk >"typhoid mary" behavior. When will democratic elected governments accuse this >man of criminal acts? I'm outraged too, but Mr. Ratzinger's actual argument isn't (as far as I can tell) as stupid and untruthful as it seems. He's not denying that condoms mitigate the exchange of fluids, but rather that using condoms for sexual contact other than totally faithful penis-vaginal intromission with one's spouse *encourages* risky sexual behavior, including kinds that make one vulnerable to AIDS. The logic is sort of plausible; after all, it's exactly what happened when contraceptive pills allowed women to fuck with abandon, and led to a rash (as it were) of venereal disease epidemics in communities where they had been somewhat unknown. Damien Broderick From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:30:24 2009 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:30:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:32 AM, John K Clark wrote: > > During his first visit to Africa, the Pope told reporters that AIDS is a > problem that "cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms; on the > contrary, they increase it." That's clearly bullshit, and I'm glad he got called on it. > The Church teaches that fidelity within heterosexual marriage and abstinence > are the best ways to stop AIDS. That sounds reasonable. > The Vatican also says condoms can lead to > risky behaviour but many contest that view. It seems pretty obvious that if condoms can prevent AIDS that they will be used to engage in "risky behaviour", presumably to diminish risk. > Health experts say there is no scientific evidence showing that condom use > spurs people to take more sexual risks and in fact studies show that condom > use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection. I'd say that having intercourse with someone who has AIDS is "risky behaviour" even if a condom is being used. Just because condoms *can* prevent AIDS doesn't mean they *will* prevent AIDS *every* time. Condoms do break. -Dave From painlord2k at libero.it Fri Mar 27 19:21:52 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:21:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> Il 27/03/2009 7.29, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > Lucifer was also the archetypal rebel. What annoys me about religion > (apart from the fact that it isn't true) is that we are expected to > submit to, worship, praise, obey, love, adore etc. God simply > because we are his creatures - or else. I think there is something > noble in characters like Lucifer or Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov who > accept that God exists but still reject him. Well, the theology is different for the different religions. For example, the Christian God is not a vengeful god as He love His creatures. Also the Jews God is not a vengeful God, because it is know to respect the Alliance with Israel. The Islamic God is know to be vengeful and voluble (this is because they continuously praise him). The devil is different in all these religion: in Christianity is the rebel that wanted to overthrow God and take His place. In Islam is the rebel that don't wanted to bow to Adam when Allah ordered the angels to do so (never mind adoring Adam would be idolatrous and so against Islam, but Allah is know to asking something and its opposite in the time). In the Talmud it is an agent of God, there to test the people and their worth. > In Kabbalistic literature and its derivative, Hasidic literature, the > Satan is seen as an agent of God whose job is to tempt one into sin, > and then turn around and accuse the sinner on high. An additional > understanding of Satan is from a parable to a prostitute who is hired > by the King (God) to tempt his son (a Jew). The prostitute has to do > the best she can to tempt the son; but deep down she hopes the son > will pass the test. Similarly, Kabbalistic/Hasidic thought sees the > Satan in the same situation. His job is to tempt us as best he can; > turn around and accuse us; but deep down his wish is that we would > resist his blandishments. Mirco From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:52:31 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:52:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> Message-ID: Lee Corbin writes > Dagon writes > >> So you come to the conclusion that the US is overrun by "criminal gangs". >> > In certain areas, yes. > > You then go and attribute a cause - "free will" and >> "incompetent politicians". >> > > No, I attribute it to liberals (what we call over here people like you). I > attribute it to the mindset that > can no longer distinguish between a lawfully run society based upon freedom > and liberty, and a society whose > infrastructure is poor and whose people are ruthless. > Challenge: give me any historical or current example of a better behaved > society than that of, say, Iowa > or Minnesota, (which are for the better part free of the contamination that > afflicts places like New Jersey > and New York, and which are no more corrupt than Sweden or Iceland). > Of course, to you, it is an absolute tragedy if someone freely chooses to > not work or contribute in any way, > and so starves to death, a tragedy that is not at all the individual's > fault, but merely the fault of society. > You really should read Pinker's "The Blank Slate" to find out the latest > research concerning the delusion > of Rousseau (and everyone since, like Marx) that we all start off as blank > slates and that all evils are > attributable to the environment. It's just not true, Dagon. I support the idea that humans are born with wildly disparate abilities as well as aptitudes. I have never even vaguely suggested that human beings are blank slates. Likewise, I abhor being even vaguely associated with the US term "liberal". In my book, this concept "liberal" stands for far-right, irrationalist, multiculturalist scum, prone to appeasement with even worse scum, such as Neoconservatives. But I understand, since the US is tearing itself apart in its ghastly little hubris orgy called "the cultural war" you enter your redblueredblue psychotic state. I am sorry, I favor a turcoise shade of green with azure highlights. > You seem to conclude that ineptitude of will is the cause for a collapse of > infrastructure > > and the formation of gangs. > > Well, that may be literally true, but it does no good. > No, the problems stems from people who are unwilling > to acknowledge that people are not blank slates, and > in many cases come into this world with bad dispositions. > > Even more importantly, it comes from a failure of > institutions based upon liberty, the free market, > and capitalism. This is true anywhere you look in > the world. Africa is the way it is because the world > suffers from an inequality of capitalism. (This is > the *main*, but not the only reason that the countries > of Africa differ from those of East Asia.) Amazingly enough, irregardless of what labels I may or not be susceptible to, I agree. Capitalism is the only default system, in a world where any minority of peoples will always work to assert its power and discount any other people, ideology or consideration. This is the failure of any system, communism, fascism, capitalism, and now - murrca. I condone capitalism, I even applaud capitalism. However, I add - if capitalim is the free and rational exchange and implementation of ideas, resources, intelligence, discourse, goods and natural means, according to supply and demand, I also would regard the interests of people as subject to free market considerations. If we are free to convene in religious worship or political debate or scientific study or jouranmlistic reporting under a free and capitalism paradigm, we are also free to unionize. Or negotiate new social contracts. Or cancel outdated contracts. Or establish legality and legality, Or allow minorities to set up noncontradictory enclaves to serve their own needs. Or set up binding minima to what we consider humane treatment. Or establish basic human rights. This is a free market of ideas, and one Idea I cherish is the ideal of making sure people have a chance to grow beyond the wretched state of their biology, and the natural inclination of his fellow human to exploit him as cattle. > Berlusconi-esque incission separation the meek >> > You then go and assert that "the people", and you suggest you can make a > clear and precise, almost > > from the gangbanger, and are sure that if this > >> "noble citizenry" (you can recognize the good ones - >> they were white robes... >> > > What you say here has a lot of truth. It is *extremely* > dangerous for concerned citizens to take the law into > their own hands for precisely the reasons you state. > Look, in fact, what happened in the French Revolution. > It's easy for the power-mad to take over in many, many > cases. But not all. You don't want to read about the > history of the San Francisco vigilantes, do you? Nor > do you want to read Pinker's "The Blank Slate", because > actual knowledge of these elements would weaken your > ideological conviction. Again, I do not in any way oppose what you say. Even though conditions here are universally far better, livable and civilized than in gang-ridden and destitute squallor of LA inner cities, I itch to take up whatever legal arms I can and lash out at what I regard as evil. And in fact, I do. I won't give you specifics but I can get donwright vicious when I see something wrong, whether it is parents that neglect their children, or a spouse that abuses his (or her) weaker mate. And I have acted, and it can be asserted that in those cases people died of what I did. Yes, I take responsibility, I took action, situations perceptibly changed and those I regard(ed) as guilty, they literally entered situations that culminated in death. What I won't do, ever, never, under no circumstances, is kill another human being, or call for any group of people to kill another human being. Changing conditions that cause a human to die, is one thing, and it is what it is. To actually cause death, causally, I do not. It is an arbitrary distinction but it has meaning for me. > This week the EU president said : America is on the road to Hell < >> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2214443/posts>. >> > > The EU president is entirely correct. The policies favored > by the Democrats and Obama (which are exactly the same > policies that would have been followed by McCain and the > republicans) ignore the principles of government non-intervention > and the unconstrained operation of the free market. If companies > fail, then they fail, the idea of being "too big to fail" being > simply a failure to admit that short term severe pain leading > back to health is better than protracted (but less severe) > pain leading to total government regulation of everything. I call upon you, if you have the courage as a human being, to end this situation. You fill in what I mean, according to your intellect and wisdom. I call upon you to end the situation where two almost equal spouses in a rotten marriage are strangling each other. Both their necks are blue and swollen, both their faces scared into a patchwork of crisscrossing welts. Both are slowly dying. If you are not a moral coward, a hypocrite, or a demagogue - I you have the nerve, I call upon you to do whatever it takes to end your two-party system. Do your part to end the duality that has become america. This change will probably end up doing me more worse than good. This change will almost certainly end the emperial, cancerous hubris in US society. Rip apart the two party system. Create a level playing field where one man is one vote, one voting round for state official, one vote for party, one vote for president. I suggest people then start socialist, communist, evangelican, conservative, revolutionary, neoconservative, imperial, white supremacist, catholic, mormon, scientologist, raellian and (in your case) libertarian people's movements. What you then do (and this would be a novel concept in US thinking) is vote, those parties form a coalition, and those coalitions rule under an elected president. Anyone who thinks this won't work, I would suspect of being an undemocratic swine, and I don't like those, for reasons above - and in the current US, both liberals and conservatives have delusions of grandeur, empowered by the delusion their chosen patriarch can have dictatorial powers for 4-8 years, and "get the job done". If you prefer that, go on strangling. My estimate stands - civil war in the US and millions dead before 2025. > absolutely no meaningful association with society, cannot care for itself, >> yet is completely dependent on the resources of >> society to survive - then you have created the basic requirements for >> banditry. >> > In the above example - the situation is unsalvagable. Once you let a > society rot, allow the formation of an underclass that has > > I totally agree with you! Conditions in the big cities > should *never* have been allowed to get out of hand. > The corruption should never have been tolerated, (e.g. > Chicago 1850-present). As soon as recognizable underclasses > begin to form, they ought to have been either massively > deported, or subjected to resettlement on reservations, > where they'd be compelled to go back to agriculture or > any kind of honest toil in order to survive. I have a far better idea. Those underclasses, as you so charming label them, could have had the civil courage to organize, unionize, fraternize, march, protest and spread their views. Even now, these wretched human beings, that do society not an inch of good, as you so charming revealed your ideology to be, SHOULD have funnelled their useless hide into a popular movement decades ago. We know what happened. The two party system has killed this off. The underclasses never had a chance. Whereas in other countries the underclasses had a dim but fair chance, they did in fact unionize and pose a force to bargain with. If you didn't to these well-organizes mobs, they would storm parliament and change the voter landscape. This is not unique and if you study the political landscape where I live (which you won't, because you care shit about anything but the Empire) you will see the emergence of two totally new political parties. Our house of commons has 150 seats. Right now we have a coaltion with three parties holding majority votes. These three parties stand to lose majority vote the next elections to a party that has zero votes the last election, and now stands to get over 20, becoming the biggest. You know him, he is a single issue populist called Wilders. On the left however the status quo is threatened by the SP, the Socialist Party, also with having achance to become the biggest party next elections. If you cant stand this heat, why not get it over with and elect a President for life? Hell, why not appoint Rush Limbaugh as emperor, and have him slit the throat of the other side. Since you are such a fan of Dolchstoss Legends, you will probably march the street in appropriate black, to take it back from the subhumans, that very day. We know were you are headed. It is the road of fighting it out, exterminating the other side, appointing a sherrif, "who cleans up the mess", quietly deports (or buries) the lower (or "cinderella") strata of your society, and gets on with business. That is, my friend, precisely what got you in this clusterfuck. Your society, your precious pile of collapsing turds stacked up into heaven, is falling apart. It is falling apart because a whole demographic strata has been consistently and generationally ocstracized and marginalized. Whole segments of your population never had a chance, and if they did, it was under the skirts of one of the big bullies in town. You don't run a society - you run zoo that way. Your political system has the signature of a gang struggle. Crips versus Bloods. Reds versus Blue. North versus South. Republican versus Democrat. It is an immature, condescending, "winner takes all" system. It is a system that works to fulminate a top dog, who then snarls the deckhands into submission and pays of allies. It is imperial Rome all over again, a system to create bubble after bubble, burst after burst. It is what Naome Wolf calls "disaster capitalism". And I despise it, with every fiber of my being. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:59:15 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:59:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903271259hd38b3dci94963ff8ac3d582a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 4:32 PM, John K Clark wrote: > LONDON, March 27 (Reuters) - A prestigious medical journal on Friday > accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic > doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS. > This is interesting, because for once the catholic church commits to something with is verifiable and falsifiable. Now, the question is: would the increased AIDS risks arising from of the number of sexual intercourses that would not take place unless the participants were confident in the their ability to avoid the risk of sexually transmitted diseases (and of unwanted pregnancies, to be fair), such as for instance broken condoms or other forms of exchange of fluids during the intercourse, exceed the reduction of contagion rate arising from the use of condoms? The answer seems obvious, but as an exquisitely empirical issue I do not see how catholics would be able to claim for a "respect" of their opinions on this one. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 20:23:24 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:23:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > > I'm outraged too, but Mr. Ratzinger's actual argument isn't (as far as I > can tell) as stupid and untruthful as it seems. He's not denying that condoms mitigate the exchange > of fluids, but rather that using condoms for sexual contact other than totally faithful > penis-vaginal intromission with one's spouse *encourages* risky sexual behavior, including kinds that > make one vulnerable to AIDS. The logic is sort of plausible; after all, it's exactly what > happened when contraceptive pills allowed women to fuck with abandon, and led to a rash (as it were) of > venereal disease epidemics in communities where they had been somewhat unknown. You have a naieve perception of human nature. I boldly claim that throughout all of history, in both puritan or depraved periods, the level of fornication, adultery, sodomy or any variation there off has been flat unchanging high. As in as much as possible. Only the level og hypocrisy has fluctuated a little. Anyone who doesn't believe me, please hire me to do field research! What the pope is worried about, rather, is not the spread of disease, or the painful and anguished withering away of infected people. In fact, the latter is good for business. This wretched liar is more worried, on a theoretical level, with the abstract of the immortal sole, which can be worn down by abstract categories of what he labels sin. His website reasoning is, and precise choice of terminology may vary, is that his lobby has an inalienable, eternal and exclusive ability to save humans from being devoured in a mighty celestial struggle of proportions and magnificence bigger both The Great Wall Of Galaxies or The Great Attractor, many times over. This man is obviously as deluded as the nut who smears the walls of his cell with feces claiming it keeps out the ghosts. Under any other circumstances this pope would be heavily medicated. What does in fact drive this publicity agency is perpetuation, like it does with any business. The pope, (at some animal instinctive gutter level ordinarily associated with sinister rouge jesuit backdoor whispering) know his business is under threat. He knows what people stop believing this crap and stick with the movement. The same conclusion was reached independently by some people in the Gaza strip, and it is simple - the pope needs squallor, ghettoes, social stratification, endemic poverty, statistical grades of misery, demographic anguish to subsist. The pope needs to juice up the collective Thalamus of humanity, because wellfed, educated and big apartment middle class human beings have very little impetus to keep the pulpits polished and the delicious castrati quireboys bobbing their precious angelic mouths up and down under the silken frocks of the annointed clergy. I say, this man is a vampire. He keeps humans in thrall, and he does so largely without a clue. This is a pavlovian system at work, where mother Theresa's cultivate large herds of The Suffering and The Lamenting, and rationalizes the hellish misery ad posterior "because it is good for the soul". Likewise the wretched condom is a means, one of several, that might lift up humans from the fetters of littering the fucking planet to death with offspring, so that we may prove agent Smith right and agree the human race is in fact a disease. The pope sees it differently, if he sees it at all. He is busy rationalizing it from the other side of the Jungian shadow, concluding that god works in mysterious ways and many sheep are needed to satisfy the Eater of Souls. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 20:39:58 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:39:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: > > >> Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly > >> by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. > >> And good for him! > > > > Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to > > hell. And if all those stories are to be believed, then > > in addition, to this day he still causes mischief and > > the corruption of souls. And if there is anything we > > need less of, it's corruption! > > Lucifer was also the archetypal rebel. What annoys me about religion > (apart from the fact that it isn't true) is that we are expected to > submit to, worship, praise, obey, love, adore etc. God simply because > we are his creatures - or else. I think there is something noble in > characters like Lucifer or Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov who accept > that God exists but still reject him. Both are characters in an ancient play - The autocrat King, who makes harsh and sometimes ruthless choices in a difficult Kingdom, but we must rest assured that what the King ordains is the best course of action ... ... and the bastard, outcast Prince, who lives abroad, most likely in a depraved place such as faraway France, does wicked things there (or stands apart in the shadow, watching as his courtiers do depraved things) and works against the King, to bring down the Kingdom out of pure spite. The King stands for autocratic rule in the cause of stability, as opposed to the Hell of civil war and corruption - the outcast Prince is the corrupt "Bushian" segment of political and royal life that works for reasons of self-interest, for select elites or minorities (jews, homosexuals, intellectuals, cityfolk, foreigners) and cultivates, out of pride, boredom or conceit, values that erode the social fabric of the Kingdom. Humans, "commoners" have an impossible choice - support the King. Or do not. If you do not, the Prince comes, makes a mess of things, and we yearn back for the good old days when The King created order, dished out particularly ruthless sentences, but "at least the trains ran on time". This symbolism and its historical context, it disgusts me. If I were appointed a player in this stage, I'd revolt, have the King arrested and live out his days under house arrest and a sober regimen of 2500 calories a day and brisk walks escorted by a mute and deaf negro called Sam, whereas I'd have the Prince extradited, sentenced to servitude as collared janitor in a home for elderly and incontinent nuns. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 20:44:24 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:44:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Nothing wrong with that, as it is a very, very bad thing the loss of > liberty, but what has > it to do with allowing life prisoners to opt for execution? They would be in > the best > possible position to assess their own personal preferences, wouldn't they? > They would be out of society, and that is what people want yes? These are beasts so depraved people don't want them in their midst and want them gone. If that's the case by all means, never let us blackmail them into wanting to die, but offer them an imprisonment such as the greedy misers of our society will afford them, offer them an option to die to avoid their mind rot away in prison or, if they can't and offer them a treatment which is absolutely certain to pacify them yet which isn't completely dehumanizing as lobotomy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Mar 27 20:53:26 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: <580930c20903271259hd38b3dci94963ff8ac3d582a@mail.gmail.com > References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <580930c20903271259hd38b3dci94963ff8ac3d582a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327153430.023b0828@satx.rr.com> At 08:59 PM 3/27/2009 +0100, SJ [but not SJ, S.J.] wrote: >Now, the question is: would the increased AIDS risks arising from of >the number of sexual intercourses that would not take place unless >the participants were confident in the their ability to avoid the >risk of sexually transmitted diseases (and of unwanted pregnancies, >to be fair), such as for instance broken condoms or other forms of >exchange of fluids during the intercourse, exceed the reduction of >contagion rate arising from the use of condoms? > >The answer seems obvious Not unless we know exactly how the question was framed by His Godly Majesty. Was only coital sex between married men and women considered (since the sin of contraception is surely less heinous than the mortal and unnatural sin of sodomy?--but perhaps the Catholic anti-condom slogan might be "as heinous as the anus!"). My own theological interpretation of the matter has long been that Catholics engaged in fatally risky sex that might be mitigated by using condoms or seething a kid in its mother's milk or any other abominable sin should be *ordered to wear them*, on pain of further grave sin. (This accords with the principle of "double effect.") To my amazement, my Thomist-grade view has been repudiated by prelates whose casuistic excuse can only be some version of "If we let them do X as the lesser of two evils, to forestall the greater, pretty soon they'll get the idea that X is positively good or at least neutral, and go hog wild." And it's hard to disagree, given the shortcuts used by the human brain. Besides, dying of AIDS--while not a divine *punishment* (this has been ruled a false opinion)--is preferable to suffering eternal damnation for using a condom, spilling your seed, or eating meat on Friday. (Yes, I know the latter wicked, wicked sin is now usually regarded as off the books, but it was once the terror of every Catholic child.) (You have to wonder about these people, you really do.) Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Mar 27 21:10:29 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:10:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327160207.023c7198@satx.rr.com> At 09:23 PM 3/27/2009 +0100, Dagon wrote: >You have a naieve perception of human nature. I'm so relieved that someone has noticed this at last! I was getting depressed by the common opinion that I'm snarky, cynical and imperious! >I boldly claim that throughout >all of history, in both puritan or depraved periods, the level of >fornication, adultery, >sodomy or any variation there off has been flat unchanging high. As in as much >as possible. It seems unlikely. Medical statistics doesn't seem to bear this out. But maybe I'm wrong about that particular, and the surge in venereal diseases during and after the mid '60s was entirely to do with replacement of many condoms with the Pill. On the other hand, I know that many Xians internalized the repressive domination of their doctrine to a degree that forced them, alas, into almost total celibacy followed by lifelong fidelity, while hardly any of their kids or grandkids have adopted those restraints. Damien Broderick From benboc at lineone.net Fri Mar 27 20:43:32 2009 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:43:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> Shannon announced: >It has cryonics as a joke throughout, and a lot of jokes that > Extropians would appreciate: > >http://television.aol.com/show/video/partner/abc/better-off-ted/better-off-ted-pilot/187472-189347 It seems that this is only for /american/ extropians. Apparently I'm not good enough to be allowed to view it. I'm not bitter. Ben Zaiboc From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 21:23:57 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:23:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to > hell. Noooo, don't say that. The "Lightbearer", a kind of Jewish Prometheos, who dared take destiny in its hand and decide to be "like a god"... :-) An archetipical transhumanist, I should say. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 21:25:28 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:25:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <580930c20903260350l4c65b811nb58f31b8e6000817@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260556w187a6101xa43d479076325c75@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903260706q46733709l33c72a59e5c90142@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903271425m2f28edeek34af216842b96e50@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/27 Dagon Gmail > They would be out of society, and that is what people want yes? These are > beasts > so depraved people don't want them in their midst and want them gone. If > that's the > case by all means, never let us blackmail them into wanting to die, but > offer them > an imprisonment such as the greedy misers of our society will afford them, > offer them > an option to die to avoid their mind rot away in prison or, if they can't > and offer them > a treatment which is absolutely certain to pacify them yet which isn't > completely > dehumanizing as lobotomy. > Be it as it may, I think we are in agreement on this one. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 21:30:53 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:30:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903271430y76c4682bqe8a904861b1a9ba8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > I'm outraged too, but Mr. Ratzinger's actual argument isn't (as far as I > can tell) as stupid and untruthful as it seems. He's not denying that > condoms mitigate the exchange of fluids, but rather that using condoms for > sexual contact other than totally faithful penis-vaginal intromission with > one's spouse *encourages* risky sexual behavior, including kinds that make > one vulnerable to AIDS. What would be then the rationale of extending the prohibition of condoms to intercourses between spouses (including when one of them got infected without any guilt from his or her side, as a consequence of, say, blood transfusion)? In fact, from a catholic point of view there is no sin in consensually taking your chances in such a scenario instead of opting for chastity, but definitely there would be in adopting such a precautional measure... -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 21:54:12 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:54:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Call me a racist, but I do not trust the third world countries and their leaders with large scale nuclear infrastructures. And precisely these numbnuts need energy the most, to get them out of the consequences of breeding as only the unredeemed poor can do, and their natural resources being used as respectfully as using mummies to fire steam engines. I really don't see this happen. And what I would find unspeakably cruel, is to have 5+ billion uneducated losers in populist jungles be completely dependent on first world energy corporations coming to sell them electricity. That would be just ghastly. I have the nagging fear that the rich nations, Northamerica, Japan, EU, Australia, might have a few nasty crashes, but nothing as worse as to have people starve. Russia, Brazil, Mexico, India, China ... iffy. But most of africa, the middle east, whole sections of southamerica, asia ... I am very much worried that we will see collapses in the next decades, based on combinations of incompetence, negative human urges, crime and most of all insufficient easy to use energy. It may stabilize, but not before mass starvation and unrest. Lets call that "brasilification" - teeming cities composed of millions living in favellas, dependent on centralized, populist food distribution. Everyone doing little useless oddjobs to keep society patched together, everything saturated with despair, drugs, crime. Soweto, Gaza, Rio and the forbidden city, all rolled into one endless fungal growth of human uselessness, places where every morning a truck drives by to collect the gang warfare dead from the streets How you cure such an impasse? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Mar 27 22:02:01 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:02:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: <580930c20903271430y76c4682bqe8a904861b1a9ba8@mail.gmail.co m> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327141528.023dea70@satx.rr.com> <580930c20903271430y76c4682bqe8a904861b1a9ba8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327165729.023c6b40@satx.rr.com> At 10:30 PM 3/27/2009 +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote: >What would be then the rationale of extending the prohibition >of condoms to intercourses between spouses (including when one of >them got infected without any guilt from his or her side, as a >consequence of, say, blood transfusion)? Quite so. >In fact, from a catholic point of view there is no sin in >consensually taking your chances in such a scenario instead of >opting for chastity Are you sure? Putting your life and that of another in danger seems likely to be deemed sinful, even though the act without the risk would be regarded as meritorious (feeding your family a nice freshly cooked chicken contrasted with feeding them a contaminated fowl). But it depends on how many layers of bullshit and triple-think the canon lawyers are prepared to wrap themselves in. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 22:44:48 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:44:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> References: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> Message-ID: On 3/27/09, ben wrote: > >http://television.aol.com/show/video/partner/abc/better-off-ted/better-off-ted-pilot/187472-189347 > > It seems that this is only for /american/ extropians. > Apparently I'm not good enough to be allowed to view it. > Well, there are ways and means. But you have to jump through a fair number of hoops and be a bit geekish. Is it worth the trouble to watch a TV program? I can't be bothered, but the following hints may help those interested. All US-only websites or country-based restriction relies on the IP address. Blocks of IP addresses are issued and assigned to specific country in bulk. When an IP address is translated to be located in an unsupported countries, access will be blocked. So in order to bypass the IP address based blocking ban, just mask the real location with an IP address to one within the supported country, primarily United States. There are several methods of doing this. The easiest is to use a Web based proxy server. First, you find a US based proxy server, type in the URL you want to access, and click GO. Because you are bouncing through the proxy server it will appear as though you are coming from the US. That will work for many sites, but it also depends on the proxy server. Some are better than others. (And some may be dangerous, to trap the unwary). The aol link above is actually for an ABC tv show. When you get through to ABC, you will find that ABC insist that you download and install their own video player software so that you are forced to watch their ads. (Another no no for me). If you still want to do this, your pc has to meet ABC's requirements. 512MB Windows XP/Vista - Internet Explorer, Firefox Mac - Firefox, Safari. (Linux need not apply). If you are *still* determined to watch their tv, go to this proxy list site: copy and paste the show URL into the box and click on the first proxy site in the list. You will probably have to bypass all your security software temporarily. (You *do* have security software, don't you?). With a bit of luck you'll eventually manage to get to see the show. Whether your computer will ever recover from the experience, is another matter. :) BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 01:07:53 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:07:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> Spike wrote: This may not ring true for many here, but it really is this way for many. When in doubt, I recommend a visit to perhaps the sexiest church of all: LDS. >>> LOL!! Is this the same LDS Church that I've been attending? hee I will say that taking part in the YSA (Young Single Adults, ages 18-30) activities/conferences/parties/dances (and there are lots of them!) has at times an almost Edwardian/Victorian sense of charged sexuality to it. Everyone is horny (if they are obeying Church rules regarding chastity) and both men and the women are on the hunt for as near the ideal husband or wife as they can find there. I definitely felt at times that I was in the middle of a modern-day version of a Jane Austin novel! Mormons are by nature natural romantics, they hold ornate marriage ceremonies in their temples that they believe will bind the couple together not only for this existance, but the afterlife to come. John Grigg : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 01:12:39 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:12:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d6187670903271812qa5ea792tea26e8d8d814dace@mail.gmail.com> Dagon Gmail wrote: But most of africa, the middle east, whole sections of southamerica, asia ... I am very much worried that we will see collapses in the next decades, based on combinations of incompetence, negative human urges, crime and most of all insufficient easy to use energy. It may stabilize, but not before mass starvation and unrest. Lets call that "brasilification" - teeming cities composed of millions living in favellas, dependent on centralized, populist food distribution. Everyone doing little useless oddjobs to keep society patched together, everything saturated with despair, drugs, crime. Soweto, Gaza, Rio and the forbidden city, all rolled into one endless fungal growth of human uselessness, places where every morning a truck drives by to collect the gang warfare dead from the streets >>> I guess the cyberpunk authors like William Gibson had it right... John : ( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 28 01:37:18 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:37:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> At 06:07 PM 3/27/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: >Mormons are by nature natural romantics, they hold ornate marriage >ceremonies in their temples that they believe will bind the couple >together not only for this existance, but the afterlife to come. And yet--spookily, "Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. Members of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate. More info." Damien Broderick From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:10:04 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:10:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903271910y300ad6dh4b1259462632075e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 06:07 PM 3/27/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: > >> Mormons are by nature natural romantics, they hold ornate marriage >> ceremonies in their temples that they believe will bind the couple together >> not only for this existance, but the afterlife to come. > > And yet--spookily, > > "Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the > average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly > 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a > number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. Members > of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and > born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; > Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate. > More info." > ### I found the following: http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2009/03/want-good-marriage-go-to-church.html and from an immaculately atheist source: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week908/analysis1.html As much as it pains me to admit it, being an atheist, religious people seem to have a better handle on their family lives. Having a big daddy in the sky ready to spank you if you misbehave is a good aid to good intentions. Rafal From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:16:40 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:16:40 +1100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/28 Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: >> >> Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to >> hell. > > Noooo, don't say that. The "Lightbearer", a kind of Jewish Prometheos, who > dared take destiny in its hand and decide to be "like a god"... :-) > > An archetipical transhumanist, I should say. Yes, exactly. -- Stathis Papaioannou From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:21:18 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:21:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/28 Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > >>> If the amount of money spent on a belief is a measure of how seriously >>> that belief should be taken, what do you make of religion? >>> >> ### Good question. Religion appears to fulfill some basic needs that >> many people feel, and their generosity is an expression of that. >> However, for the vast majority of religious people, it is a service >> they buy, not an investment made to increase their future earnings. >> Religion is in a similar infotainment category to romance novels, or >> ESPN subscriptions, and comparing it to oil futures investment would a >> be a category error. > > It's an investment in time and money which people hope will pay off in > the afterlife. It is true that, as spike pointed out, for many church > is a pleasant social experience, but I doubt that attendance would be > as high if they really believed it was all a fantasy, like a romance > novel. > ### Of course most of them believe it's real but this is not the exclusive or main reason why they attend and pay. AFAIK (I may be wrong, since this is alien thought-space for me) they want a "spiritual experience", in addition to the social context. Also, the payoff is a matter of faith, as any real Christian would tell you, not a reasoned expectation, and this differs greatly from buying oil futures where expectations are based on previously gathered empirically observable data in the form of money in your account and in the accounts of other traders. Rafal From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:21:21 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:21:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903271921n10e1d6afr33b35c073c4d7d39@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 06:07 PM 3/27/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: > > Mormons are by nature natural romantics, they hold ornate marriage >> ceremonies in their temples that they believe will bind the couple together >> not only for this existance, but the afterlife to come. >> > > And yet--spookily, > > "Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the > average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly > 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a > number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. Members > of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and > born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; > Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate. < > http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm>More info." > > Damien Broderick > >From the website you yourself linked: This simple statistic obscures an interesting factor: Mormons who marry fellow believers have an extremely low divorce rate: "A 1993 study published in Demography [magazine] showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent)*.*" *7* One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between Mormons and non-Mormons (and between Jews and non-Jews) is often so great that the chances of a successful, harmonious marriage are much reduced. >>> A-ha! And so the statistics *do* favor Mormons who marry within their faith... I was glad to learn agnostic/atheistic couples have a statistically very good chance of making it. Okay, now go and kiss your wife Barbara! ; ) John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:23:30 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:23:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903271917m2e17cf08x768792872cae03fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903271910y300ad6dh4b1259462632075e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271917m2e17cf08x768792872cae03fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903271923g6ad1bf99j55dc593ce9a9b175@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Chad Robb wrote: > A long marriage is not necessarily a happy or healthy one. > Some catholics have unnaturally extended marriages, like a coma patient > plugged into life support. ### You may want to peruse the GSS data on correlations between religious attendance and the degree of happiness in marriage. Rafal From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:47:35 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:47:35 +1100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/28 painlord2k at libero.it : > Well, the theology is different for the different religions. > For example, the Christian God is not a vengeful god as He love His > creatures. Also the Jews God is not a vengeful God, because it is know > to respect the Alliance with Israel. The Islamic God is know to be > vengeful and voluble (this is because they continuously praise him). As you probably know, the Jewish, Christian and Islamic god is one and the same guy. Jews accept the Old Testament but not the New Testament or the Quran, Christians accept the Old and New Testament but not the Quran, while Muslims accept all three holy books. The actual behaviour of Jews, Christians and Muslims has as much to do with the culture of the day as what is actually written in these books. For example, there have been periods in European history where it was felt that it was the duty of Christians to slaughter the infidels, while in the Ottoman empire the right of Christians and Jews to practise their religion unmolested was upheld by the Sultan. This was consistent with the Quran's attitude towards "people of the Book". -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 03:59:25 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:59:25 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/28 Rafal Smigrodzki : > ### Of course most of them believe it's real but this is not the > exclusive or main reason why they attend and pay. AFAIK (I may be > wrong, since this is alien thought-space for me) they want a > "spiritual experience", in addition to the social context. Also, the > payoff is a matter of faith, as any real Christian would tell you, not > a reasoned expectation, They say that but it doesn't make any sense to me. People believe in their religion because they are convinced by the evidence: they read the book, listen to the religious leaders, and they find reason to trust them, much as they find reason to trust their family and friends. No-one comes out and says, Obviously this is all crap, but I'm going to believe it anyway. > and this differs greatly from buying oil > futures where expectations are based on previously gathered > empirically observable data in the form of money in your account and > in the accounts of other traders. It still amounts to an argument that the belief the world votes for is probably the correct belief, which I don't think you really agree with. -- Stathis Papaioannou From mlatorra at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 04:03:36 2009 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:03:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903271921n10e1d6afr33b35c073c4d7d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670903271921n10e1d6afr33b35c073c4d7d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ff585550903272103i752d362fx4bc1d88426bc8a93@mail.gmail.com> Well the latest findings reported below seem to show that that the Mormon-Mormon (in-group) divorce rate is very low. And here I was, after having read earlier that the Mormon divorce rate was the same as that of other Americans, all prepared to quip that polygamous Mormons could have skewed the results! But now that joke won't work. So just pretend I never said it. ;) Regards, Mike LaTorra 2009/3/27 John Grigg > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > >> At 06:07 PM 3/27/2009 -0700, John Grigg wrote: >> >> Mormons are by nature natural romantics, they hold ornate marriage >>> ceremonies in their temples that they believe will bind the couple together >>> not only for this existance, but the afterlife to come. >>> >> >> And yet--spookily, >> >> "Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the >> average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly >> 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a >> number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. Members >> of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and >> born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; >> Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate. < >> http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm>More info." >> >> Damien Broderick >> > > From the website you yourself linked: > This simple statistic obscures an interesting factor: Mormons who marry > fellow believers have an extremely low divorce rate: > > "A 1993 study published in Demography [magazine] showed that Mormons > marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become > divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of > marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among > Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon > marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 > percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse > (42 percent)*.*" *7* > > One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between > Mormons and non-Mormons (and between Jews and non-Jews) is often so great > that the chances of a successful, harmonious marriage are much reduced. > > >>> > A-ha! And so the statistics *do* favor Mormons who marry within their > faith... > > I was glad to learn agnostic/atheistic couples have a statistically very > good chance of making it. Okay, now go and kiss your wife Barbara! ; ) > > John : ) > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dagonweb at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 06:31:21 2009 From: dagonweb at gmail.com (Dagon Gmail) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:31:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903271812qa5ea792tea26e8d8d814dace@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d6187670903271812qa5ea792tea26e8d8d814dace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Dagon Gmail wrote: > But most of africa, the middle east, whole sections of southamerica, asia > ... I > am very much worried that we will see collapses in the next decades, based > on > combinations of incompetence, negative human urges, crime and most of all > insufficient easy to use energy. It may stabilize, but not before mass > starvation > and unrest. Lets call that "brasilification" - teeming cities composed of > millions > living in favellas, dependent on centralized, populist food distribution. > Everyone > doing little useless oddjobs to keep society patched together, everything > saturated with despair, drugs, crime. Soweto, Gaza, Rio and the forbidden > city, all rolled into one endless fungal growth of human uselessness, > places > where every morning a truck drives by to collect the gang warfare dead from > the streets > >>> > > I guess the cyberpunk authors like William Gibson had it right... Even mostly unbeat GURPS THS situated the dystopian cyberpunk elements in the turd world. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ain_ani at yahoo.com Sat Mar 28 13:54:15 2009 From: ain_ani at yahoo.com (Michael Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 06:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <796764.99658.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >>>Religion appears to fulfill some basic needs that >>> many people feel, and their generosity is an expression of that. >>> However, for the vast majority of religious people, it is a service >>> they buy, not an investment made to increase their future earnings. >>> Religion is in a similar infotainment category to romance novels, or >>> ESPN subscriptions, and comparing it to oil futures investment would a >>> be a category error. >> >> It's an investment in time and money which people hope will pay off in >> the afterlife. It is true that, as spike pointed out, for many church >> is a pleasant social experience, but I doubt that attendance would be >> as high if they really believed it was all a fantasy, like a romance >> novel. >> >### Of course most of them believe it's real but this is not the >exclusive or main reason why they attend and pay. AFAIK (I may be >wrong, since this is alien thought-space for me) they want a >"spiritual experience", in addition to the social context. Also, the >payoff is a matter of faith, as any real Christian would tell you, not >a reasoned expectation, and this differs greatly from buying oil >futures where expectations are based on previously gathered >empirically observable data in the form of money in your account and >in the accounts of other traders. > >Rafal I'd have to side with Rafal on this one: Religion, from my own experience and studies, is less about the future and more about the now: it is the way it feels to participate which prompts people to continue. 'Religion' as we know it now has developed from several different roots, but a principal one is the way that ritual feels when performed: Mass is just as much participation in a spiritual event as an Amazonian tribe taking psychoactives and drumming or chanting themselves into another kind of consciousness. It makes reality seem 'more real', more powerful, more meaningful. And those experiences form part of a larger metaphysics of the meaning of life and one's own place in the grand scheme. However, I think very few religious people would articulate their faith as coldly as in terms of 'pay-off' as it really isn't about reward (except perhaps for conservative Christians), or about dying, it's about doing this business of 'living' in a meaningful way. And because of this, I think that perhaps this idea that the truth or falsehood of religion is the principal question is misleading: it's more to do with the framework it provides, than the actual beliefs it provides, which are more like tools for one's approach to life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:22:22 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:22:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > For example, there > have been periods in European history where it was felt that it was > the duty of Christians to slaughter the infidels, while in the Ottoman > empire the right of Christians and Jews to practise their religion > unmolested was upheld by the Sultan. This was consistent with the > Quran's attitude towards "people of the Book". Too bad the courtesy was hardly extended to "pagans" (e.g., "wizards", zoroastrians, etc.), but you are right in saying that traditional Islam was way more multicultural and "liberal" than judeochristianism, and that it learnt to a large extent the virtues of religious intolerance and missionarism by the latter. -- Stefano Vaj From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:43:05 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:43:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] List of pitfalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580930c20903280843p5356a57el999d09dd64c55e3a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/27 Dagon Gmail : > Call me a racist, but I do not trust the third world countries and their > leaders > with large scale nuclear infrastructures. Why, this seems to be reciprocal, since most third-world countries do not really trust first and especially second world countries and their leaders with large scale nuclear infrastructures... :-) -- Stefano Vaj From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 16:13:46 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 02:43:46 +1030 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: References: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903280913s5a1a9382w2d5bcca310404bb8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/28 BillK : > On 3/27/09, ben wrote: >> >>http://television.aol.com/show/video/partner/abc/better-off-ted/better-off-ted-pilot/187472-189347 >> >> ?It seems that this is only for /american/ extropians. >> ?Apparently I'm not good enough to be allowed to view it. >> > Well, there are ways and means. But you have to jump through a fair > number of hoops and be a bit geekish. Is it worth the trouble to watch > a TV program? > I can't be bothered, but the following hints may help those interested. > > > All US-only websites or country-based restriction relies on the IP > address. Blocks of IP addresses are issued and assigned to specific > country in bulk. When an IP address is translated to be located in an > unsupported countries, access will be blocked. So in order to bypass > the IP address based blocking ban, just mask the real location with an > IP address to one within the supported country, primarily United > States. > > There are several methods of doing this. > The easiest is to use a Web based proxy server. > First, you find a US based proxy server, type in the URL you want to > access, and click GO. ?Because you are bouncing through the proxy > server it will appear as though you are coming from the US. > > That will work for many sites, but it also depends on the proxy > server. Some are better than others. (And some may be dangerous, to > trap the unwary). > > The aol link above is actually for an ABC tv show. > When you get through to ABC, you will find that ABC insist that you > download and install their own video player software so that you are > forced to watch their ads. > (Another no no for me). > > If you still want to do this, your pc has to meet ABC's requirements. > 512MB Windows XP/Vista - Internet Explorer, Firefox > Mac - Firefox, Safari. > (Linux need not apply). > > If you are *still* determined to watch their tv, go to this proxy list site: > > copy and paste the show URL into the box and click on the first proxy > site in the list. > You will probably have to bypass all your security software temporarily. > (You *do* have security software, don't you?). > > With a bit of luck you'll eventually manage to get to see the show. > > Whether your computer will ever recover from the experience, is > another matter. ?:) > > BillK I haven't had any success with Proxies and streaming video. I think the servers streaming the video don't use protocols that the proxies understand, so it just doesn't seem to work (for me). Also, proxies just give me the willies; what an excellent way to have your machine totally owned. Another thing to consider is that streaming video is a lot of data over a short period of time. Most proxies aren't going to let you do that (because it goes through them), or just wont support a data rate that is fast enough. Something better maybe is a vpn. I've had some success with Hotspot Shield in the past (http://www.hotspotshield.com/), although when I've tried to use it more recently, it's been too slow (probably a victim of its own success). I've been thinking of getting a commercial vpn to the US, does anyone have experience with this? It'll become even more pertinent if Australia really implements the internet censorship that's currently being trialed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia Also, and I'm going to show my ignorance of how the net really works here, is there any way from outside the US to be directly assigned a supposedly US based ip address? That is, can we directly subvert this mapping of ip-address to country? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From pharos at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 17:00:54 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:00:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903280913s5a1a9382w2d5bcca310404bb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> <710b78fc0903280913s5a1a9382w2d5bcca310404bb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/28/09, Emlyn wrote: > I haven't had any success with Proxies and streaming video. I think > the servers streaming the video don't use protocols that the proxies > understand, so it just doesn't seem to work (for me). Also, proxies > just give me the willies; what an excellent way to have your machine > totally owned. > > Another thing to consider is that streaming video is a lot of data > over a short period of time. Most proxies aren't going to let you do > that (because it goes through them), or just wont support a data rate > that is fast enough. Agree totally. There are hundreds of proxies available of all types. You just have to keep trying till you find one that works with what you are trying to do. But, as you say, most are for slow speed access to Myspace or Facebook to bypass school or work firewalls. ;) And, yes, they can be risky. User recommendation and lots of security software may help. I mentioned them because they are the easiest to use. I rarely watch video myself. Just the occasional cat video or YouTube clip. The slow speed restriction also applies to free software like JAP or Tor. Pay for software like Anonymizer or GhostSurf claim to provide a high speed connection. > > Something better maybe is a vpn. I've had some success with Hotspot > Shield in the past (http://www.hotspotshield.com/), although when I've > tried to use it more recently, it's been too slow (probably a victim > of its own success). > > I've been thinking of getting a commercial vpn to the US, does anyone > have experience with this? It'll become even more pertinent if > Australia really implements the internet censorship that's currently > being trialed: > Yes. A paid for vpn should give you the bandwidth you need, Another option is that you could link to an Extropian computer in the US and take it over, using similar software to the support tech people, and use the US pc to watch the video and stream it across to your pc as well. If someone in the US had a spare pc with nothing confidential on it, you could use it while they were asleep. :) (I'm in ur pc watchin yur videos). > > Also, and I'm going to show my ignorance of how the net really works > here, is there any way from outside the US to be directly assigned a > supposedly US based ip address? That is, can we directly subvert this > mapping of ip-address to country? > No. You have to take the IP address assigned to you by your ISP All the anonynising, tunnelling, vpn, etc. is to get round this restriction. BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 28 18:46:54 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:46:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] punishment [and politicians] In-Reply-To: <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090328134330.02510be8@satx.rr.com> <http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/03/28/webb/index.html> Jim Webb's courage v. the "pragmatism" excuse for politicians Glenn Greenwald [many links in original text] Mar. 28, 2009 | There are few things rarer than a major politician doing something that is genuinely courageous and principled, but Jim Webb's impassioned commitment to fundamental prison reform is exactly that. Webb's interest in the issue was prompted by his work as a journalist in 1984, when he wrote about an American citizen who was locked away in a Japanese prison for two years under extremely harsh conditions for nothing more than marijuana possession. After decades of mindless "tough-on-crime" hysteria, an increasingly irrational "drug war," and a sprawling, privatized prison state as brutal as it is counter-productive, America has easily surpassed Japan -- and virtually every other country in the world -- to become what Brown University Professor Glenn Loury recently described as a nation of jailers" whose "prison system has grown into a leviathan unmatched in human history." What's most notable about Webb's decision to champion this cause is how honest his advocacy is. He isn't just attempting to chip away at the safe edges of America's oppressive prison state. His critique of what we're doing is fundamental, not incremental. And, most important of all, Webb is addressing head-on one of the principal causes of our insane imprisonment fixation: our aberrational insistence on criminalizing and imprisoning non-violent drug offenders (when we're not doing worse to them). That is an issue most politicians are petrified to get anywhere near, as evidenced just this week by Barack Obama's adolescent, condescending snickering when asked about marijuana legalization, in response to which Obama gave a dismissive answer that Andrew Sullivan accurately deemed "pathetic." Here are just a few excerpts from Webb's Senate floor speech this week on his new bill to create a Commission to study all aspects of prison reform: Let's start with a premise that I don't think a lot of Americans are aware of. We have 5% of the world's population; we have 25% of the world's known prison population. We have an incarceration rate in the United States, the world's greatest democracy, that is five times as high as the average incarceration rate of the rest of the world. There are only two possibilities here: either we have the most evil people on earth living in the United States; or we are doing something dramatically wrong in terms of how we approach the issue of criminal justice. . . . The elephant in the bedroom in many discussions on the criminal justice system is the sharp increase in drug incarceration over the past three decades. In 1980, we had 41,000 drug offenders in prison; today we have more than 500,000, an increase of 1,200%. The blue disks represent the numbers in 1980; the red disks represent the numbers in 2007 and a significant percentage of those incarcerated are for possession or nonviolent offenses stemming from drug addiction and those sorts of related behavioral issues. . . . In many cases these issues involve people's ability to have proper counsel and other issues, but there are stunning statistics with respect to drugs that we all must come to terms with. African-Americans are about 12% of our population; contrary to a lot of thought and rhetoric, their drug use rate in terms of frequent drug use rate is about the same as all other elements of our society, about 14%. But they end up being 37% of those arrested on drug charges, 59% of those convicted, and 74% of those sentenced to prison by the numbers that have been provided by us. . . . Another piece of this issue that I hope we will address with this National Criminal Justice Commission is what happens inside our prisons. . . . We also have a situation in this country with respect to prison violence and sexual victimization that is off the charts and we must get our arms around this problem. We also have many people in our prisons who are among what are called the criminally ill, many suffering from hepatitis and HIV who are not getting the sorts of treatment they deserve. Importantly, what are we going to do about drug policy - the whole area of drug policy in this country? And how does that affect sentencing procedures and other alternatives that we might look at? Webb added that "America's criminal justice system has deteriorated to the point that it is a national disgrace" and "we are locking up too many people who do not belong in jail." It's hard to overstate how politically thankless, and risky, is Webb's pursuit of this issue -- both in general and particularly for Webb. Though there has been some evolution of public opinion on some drug policy issues, there is virtually no meaningful organized constituency for prison reform. To the contrary, leaving oneself vulnerable to accusations of being "soft on crime" has, for decades, been one of the most toxic vulnerabilities a politician can suffer (ask Michael Dukakis). Moreover, the privatized Prison State is a booming and highly profitable industry, with an army of lobbyists, donations, and other well-funded weapons for targeting candidates who threaten its interests. Most notably, Webb is in the Senate not as an invulnerable, multi-term political institution from a safely blue state (he's not Ted Kennedy), but is the opposite: he's a first-term Senator from Virginia, one of the "toughest" "anti-crime" states in the country (it abolished parole in 1995 and is second only to Texas in the number of prisoners it executes), and Webb won election to the Senate by the narrowest of margins, thanks largely to George Allen's macaca-driven implosion. As Ezra Klein wrote, with understatement: "Lots of politicians make their name being anti-crime, which has come to mean pro-punishment. Few make their name being pro-prison reform." For a Senator like Webb to spend his time trumpeting the evils of excessive prison rates, racial disparities in sentencing, the unjust effects of the Drug War, and disgustingly harsh conditions inside prisons is precisely the opposite of what every single political consultant would recommend that he do. There's just no plausible explanation for what Webb's actions other than the fact that he's engaged in the noblest and rarest of conduct: advocating a position and pursuing an outcome because he actually believes in it and believes that, with reasoned argument, he can convince his fellow citizens to see the validity of his cause. And he is doing this despite the fact that it potentially poses substantial risks to his political self-interest and offers almost no prospect for political reward. [etc] From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 19:23:56 2009 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:23:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/27 Lee Corbin : > >>> Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly >>> by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. >>> And good for him! >> >> Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to >> hell. And if all those stories are to be believed, then >> in addition, to this day he still causes mischief and >> the corruption of souls. And if there is anything we >> need less of, it's corruption! > > Lucifer was also the archetypal rebel. The bible (Koran,Torah, Upanishads, etc.), religion, and other identity signifiers are features of human tribalism. Think, speak, dress, behave, and believe as the others of your tribe do, and you are recognized and accepted as a tribal member. Then, above all else, obey. Obey the tribal chief and the tribal priests as tribal demi-gods, invested by the uber-god as the tribal big shots. Dominance is the devine right of the elect. Obedience to them is obedience to god. Disobedience is the essence of evil, the identifier of "the other". Presumably you were born into the tribe and raised to adopt these tribal identity signifiers, so it will come naturally. If you dare to be disobedient, (if so, you'd best go all the way and kill the king and take his place, or else...) you will suffer the hell of repudiation and banishment (or simply be killed as a traitor). Lucifer then, is the archetypal "terrorist", or the archetypal "freedom fighter". You make the call. > What annoys me about religion > (apart from the fact that it isn't true) is that we are expected to > submit to, worship, praise, obey, love, adore etc Don't think, believe. Don't think, obey. Now, give me your money, and your young daughters/sons. God commands you. Obey. Or die,(and then, in case you think you're getting away with something in the peaceful repose of the grave, suffer eternal torment in hell). Best, Jeff Davis "Science works, religion doesn't." Berni Chong From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Mar 28 21:40:19 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:40:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Next: teaching the flat earth controversy in TX schools Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090328163918.026b4a38@satx.rr.com> In a final vote, the Texas Board of Education approved on Friday new language that requires science teachers to encourage students to "critique" and examine "all sides" of scientific theories. ..."Texas now has the most progressive science standards on evolution in the entire nation," said Dr. John West, Senior Fellow at Discovery Institute, an "intelligent design" think tank, in a statement. "Texas has sent a clear message that evolution should be taught as a scientific theory open to critical scrutiny, not as a sacred dogma that can't be questioned." =========== I wonder how a teacher would fare who adopted this ID line but taught with great passion that the Raelian position was far superior to evolution: that is, UFO aliens had created us. Students wouldn't be obliged to *believe* this, naturally, but would need to be up to speed on it at least to the same extent as they have to be on evolution. Then Scientologists could teach Hubbard's anti-evolution version, and so on, or cynics could teach it as an instance of ID. Simulation theorists could follow. Would they be hounded out of the schools? Would the board insist that only fundamentalist Christian-flavored ID (however hypocritically disguised) is permissible? It's easily argued that Simulation Theory is far more scientific than any other variant (being based on computer science and stats), and the Raelians make that claim as well, since they appear to be materialists who just think aliens used ID to create us. (How the aliens came about themselves is unclear.) Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 02:03:52 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:33:52 +1030 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: References: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> <710b78fc0903280913s5a1a9382w2d5bcca310404bb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903281903u63be3adbn21bc907345c72da8@mail.gmail.com> >> >> ?Also, and I'm going to show my ignorance of how the net really works >> ?here, is there any way from outside the US to be directly assigned a >> ?supposedly US based ip address? That is, can we directly subvert this >> ?mapping of ip-address to country? >> > > No. You have to take the IP address assigned to you by your ISP > > All the anonynising, tunnelling, vpn, etc. is to get round this restriction. > > > BillK I've asked this question the wrong way then. Why is my isp restricted to australian addresses? Is there any way an isp in country A can get a block of addresses that are supposed to be used for country B? -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 03:53:05 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:53:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903282053t3e3d649bh578c0665a4b94bb7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > It still amounts to an argument that the belief the world votes for is > probably the correct belief, which I don't think you really agree > with. > ### I would still insist that treating futures traders seriously does not entail having to treat theists seriously - these are different herds altogether, and I approach them using completely different chains of reasoning. If I have no first-hand experience in a field, I am perforce relying on others to form opinions, and the trick to know the truth is to choose your authorities wisely. I know that talk is cheap but most people are careful about their money, which is why I treat seriously those who put money at risk in a way that tightly binds economic outcomes to correct predictions, which in turn rely on accurate knowledge of the present. I do not put much trust in armchair geologists who indulge in inconsequential venting. I do not believe "the world" to be correct, rather I carefully choose who to believe, based on my knowledge of human nature. I reject popular opinions about the existence of deities by a different analysis - do I need to belabor it here? Rafal From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 04:13:34 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:13:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CEF56E.8070305@rawbw.com> Alas! So many great emails, so little time :-( Keith writes >> But if there is a way to survive indefinitely, then we've >> bought as much time as we need. Eventually, I claim, that >> so long as the gene pool doesn't go down hill, ways will >> be figured out to make one tiny advance after another. >> I'd bet that if you turned loose 500 Keith Hensons on >> Easter Island with one billion dollars of equipment and >> 5000 nubile and fertile young women, you could count on >> coming back in a couple of centuries and finding a very >> advanced society indeed. > > Hmm. I really doubt it. Not even with 500 immortals. I see the (stronger) point you're making. But economically immortality isn't what's needed, immorality is, and so that's why I provided the excess young women. :-) > $ billion is a thousand million. Split 5000 ways that > won't even buy a decent house in California, The idea behind the billion dollars was to set up hydroponics facilities, which I believe don't need anything more than energy to run (apart from initial raw materials). The bulk of the billion---that I had in mind---would go towards implementing the long capital chain necessary to fabricate from scratch first, the necessities (food, clothing, shelter) and the technology. Perhaps that's not possible, but perhaps it is. Now if it *is* possible, then waiting around for a century or so as the rest of 20th century tech is devised requires only patience, and hard work from all the Henson progeny. (in the below, you do not address hydroponics specifically ---have you looked into it?) Lee > but it is not the money I have really severe doubts > about being able to sustain even a modest technological society with > the resources you could get from Easter Island, at least with the > technology level we have today. It's entirely possible that a > nanotechnology based society could though. Incidentally, about 4000 > Tasmanians wasn't enough to sustain their level of culture and the > history of smaller isolated groups indicates they die out. > > We know the industrial base does replicate itself on earth as well as > the human population that is part of it. I am not saying it could not > be done on the moon or Easter Island, but I don't know how. > > Keith From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 04:21:58 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:21:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > 2009/3/27 Lee Corbin : > >>> Lucifer was an almost perfect being ruled perfectly >>> by a perfect being, but still he was dissatisfied. >>> And good for him! >> >> Lucifer was a traitorous bastard who deserved to go to >> hell. And if all those stories are to be believed, then >> in addition, to this day he still causes mischief and >> the corruption of souls. And if there is anything we >> need less of, it's corruption! > > Lucifer was also the archetypal rebel. That's not necessarily good, of course. > What annoys me about religion > (apart from the fact that it isn't true) is that we are expected to > submit to, worship, praise, obey, love, adore etc. God simply because > we are his creatures - or else. You said it! If God exists, he is not good (and, as you know, if God is good, then he does not exist). I've quite had my fill of children dying in prolonged and excruciating pain in the cancer wards. There indeed is something sick about worship period. Worship? No modern person with any sense of good taste whatsoever surely can said a good word for it. The very idea! And to *worship* a being---or pretend to---simply because he'll see to it that you go to hell if you don't, well words hardly suffice. But they do, barely. If there was such a petty tyrranical all-knowing being that runs *everything*, okay, I'm on my needs however many times a week He wants. Now, if He were just Good, it might even be entirely worth it! (I'm not too proud to worship if the alternatives are worse.) Lee > I think there is something noble in > characters like Lucifer or Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov who accept > that God exists but still reject him. From crwbot at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 04:56:29 2009 From: crwbot at gmail.com (Christopher Whipple) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:56:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Medical journal says Pope full of shit In-Reply-To: <580930c20903271259hd38b3dci94963ff8ac3d582a@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <580930c20903271259hd38b3dci94963ff8ac3d582a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <123db6100903282156h1d8c5b05gf2bf53841e17c426@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/27 Stefano Vaj : > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 4:32 PM, John K Clark wrote: >> >> LONDON, March 27 (Reuters) - A prestigious medical journal on Friday >> accused Pope Benedict of distorting scientific evidence to promote Catholic >> doctrine by saying that condoms increase the spread of AIDS. > > > This is interesting, because for once the catholic church commits to > something with is verifiable and falsifiable. > > Now, the question is: would the increased AIDS risks arising from of the > number of sexual intercourses that would not take place unless the > participants were confident in the their ability to avoid the risk of > sexually transmitted diseases (and of unwanted pregnancies, to be fair), > such as for instance broken condoms or other forms of exchange of fluids > during the intercourse,? exceed the reduction of contagion rate arising from > the use of condoms? The question that's really on my mind, given all of this, is whether or not health insurance companies can use this as an argument to start asking the religious affiliations of those seeking insurance. If you subscribe to a certain belief system that's demonstrably harmful to you, up go your rates. What happens when your chosen religion's irrationality starts hitting your wallet? > The answer seems obvious, but as an exquisitely empirical issue I do not see > how catholics would be able to claim for a "respect" of their opinions on > this one. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 05:10:08 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:10:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> Lee Corbin wrote: You said it! If God exists, he is not good (and, as you know, if God is good, then he does not exist). I've quite had my fill of children dying in prolonged and excruciating pain in the cancer wards. There indeed is something sick about worship period. Worship? No modern person with any sense of good taste whatsoever surely can said a good word for it. The very idea! And to *worship* a being---or pretend to---simply because he'll see to it that you go to hell if you don't, well words hardly suffice. But they do, barely. If there was such a petty tyrranical all-knowing being that runs *everything*, okay, I'm on my needs however many times a week He wants. Now, if He were just Good, it might even be entirely worth it! (I'm not too proud to worship if the alternatives are worse.) >>> I prefer the Mormon concept of God as our literal Father in Heaven. "As * man* is, *God* once was; *as God is, man may become*." And so life is viewed as a sort of divine boot camp to test people, and those who choose to love and serve their Heavenly Father will in time become gods themselves, creating worlds and peopling them with their own children. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 05:58:23 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:58:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> Stathis writes > 2009/3/27 Lee Corbin : > >> No, I attribute it to liberals (what we call over here >> people like you). I attribute it to the mindset that >> can no longer distinguish between a lawfully run society >> based upon freedom and liberty, and a society whose >> infrastructure is poor and whose people are ruthless. > > How are the liberals responsible for that? I would have to look at a previous post to find out what "it" was exactly. My line >> the mindset that >> can no longer distinguish between a lawfully run society >> based upon freedom and liberty, and a society whose >> infrastructure is poor and whose people are ruthless. was a dig at the previous writer, who seemed to hold that view. (I haven't got to his rejoinder yet.) >> Challenge: give me any historical or current example >> of a better behaved society than that of, say, Iowa >> or Minnesota, (which are for the better part free of >> the contamination that afflicts places like New Jersey >> and New York, and which are no more corrupt than >> Sweden or Iceland). > > So what's the essential difference between the well-behaved and badly > behaved states? Good question! I would say that between the *really* badly run states in the world and the relatively okay ones, it comes down to cultural specifics. But I think you meant between the (U.S.) states given. The more corrupt (American) states are historically older, which seems to allow for the growth and development of corruption. It's also quite likely (in my opinion) that in those two states I gave that were relatively less corrupt, they possess greater trust, in Fukuyama's sense of the term. Diversity, quite a number of people are beginning to realize, reduces trust, creates divisions, and supports mutual hostility (despite the earnest pleadings of the media and propagation outlets (schools)). >> Of course, to you [a previous writer, not necessarily >> Stathis], it is an absolute tragedy if someone >> freely chooses to not work or contribute in any way, >> and so starves to death, a tragedy that is not at all >> the individual's fault, but merely the fault of society. > > I must admit that prior to joining this list I didn't think that > anyone seriously questioned the idea that one of the main purposes of > civilised society was to provide for the basic needs of its citizens. Yeah, well you were basically correct because we aren't many. > I knew there was debate about exactly which services should be > provided, how they would be funded, and so on, but not that it might > be wrong to have any public services at all. So I suppose this is just > one of those matters where we will reach an impasse due to having have > different basic principles. Probably. But younger people growing up may be less wedded to their prejudices and established ways of seeing things, not to say values, and get a better view or be more objective. >> You really should read Pinker's "The Blank Slate" to >> find out the latest research concerning the delusion >> of Rousseau (and everyone since, like Marx) that we >> all start off as blank slates and that all evils are >> attributable to the environment. It's just not true, >> Dagon. > > If personality is more inherited than environmental, then that means > the evils of the world can't be mainly due to personality. Otherwise > what genetic catastrophe would explain the behaviour of the German > people under the Nazis, for example? I have to agree (though you need not reach back to the Nazis for a demonstration). The evils of the world are *not* mainly due to personality (I am *so* glad you agree, given the current climate of demonization of greedy capitalists and what-not, who many see as a personal exhibition of evilness). Instead the evils of the world for most part are do to bad or inadequate institutions, e.g. the unequal distribution of capitalism, the unequal distribution of lawful behavior, and the unequal distribution of liberty. > There are plenty of examples of third world countries where the > government does everything it can to suppress any activity that might > be construed as impeding business, for example by eliminating trade > unionists or other liberal/lefty types, not to mention refraining from > spending any money on public services, and these countries are a total > mess. I imagine that the ones you have in mind are the kleptocracies run by a dictatorial elite for their own benefit. If you have other examples, I'd love to hear them, thanks. >> Conditions in the big cities >> should *never* have been allowed to get out of hand. >> The corruption should never have been tolerated, (e.g. >> Chicago 1850-present). As soon as recognizable underclasses >> begin to form, they ought to have been either massively >> deported, or subjected to resettlement on reservations, >> where they'd be compelled to go back to agriculture or >> any kind of honest toil in order to survive. > > You seem to be saying that such government intervention would be - > what? a lesser constraint on liberty? - than regulating banks. You've got me there! As with any vigilante action, sometimes the lawful established order, as Jefferson himself prophesied, needs to be overcome, and in this case the liberties of certain elements, e.g. organized crime or the underclasses, must be violated. But it's either that or eventually perish. France, for example, needs to do what it would instantly have done in any century before the 20th, namely expel its Muslim population. It's either that or cease eventually to have a modern western society at all! Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 06:02:26 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:02:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] note about Re: The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CF0EF2.4090608@rawbw.com> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> Rafal [wrote]: >> >>> ### Futures are an aggregate measure of guesses by people who are >>> willing to put their cash on the table, therefore their guesses can be >>> taken more seriously than the solar-pie-in-orbit stuff. People in the >>> know know that oil won't run out anytime soon. >> If the amount of money spent on a belief is a measure of how seriously >> that belief should be taken, what do you make of religion? >> > ### Good question. I just said the very same thing to Stathis, word for word. And yesterday, also before reading Rafal's post, I used the word "bastard" in the same sense as he. Great minds think alike, I would hope---but anyway, I take it as a compliment from the universe that I am provoked to say the same things as Rafal S. Lee From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 08:43:37 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:43:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Network Sitcom In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903281903u63be3adbn21bc907345c72da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49CD3A74.8040802@lineone.net> <710b78fc0903280913s5a1a9382w2d5bcca310404bb8@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903281903u63be3adbn21bc907345c72da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/29/09, Emlyn wrote: > I've asked this question the wrong way then. > > Why is my isp restricted to australian addresses? Is there any way an > isp in country A can get a block of addresses that are supposed to be > used for country B? > No. Because that's the way the world is. :) It goes way back to the way the Internet was developed. You'll have to look up the RFC documents to get the details. See: How the Internet works. Basically, to control the issuing of IP numbers for everything in the Internet world, they devised a tree structure, starting with blocks of numbers issued to different countries in the world. And yes, this has led to an unbalanced allocation of numbers. But they're working on it, :) BillK From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 08:53:48 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 01:53:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CF371C.6030405@rawbw.com> Dagon writes > Amazingly enough, irregardless of what labels I may or not be > susceptible to, I agree. Capitalism is the > only default system, in a world where any minority of peoples will > always work to assert its power and > discount any other people, ideology or consideration... > > However, I add - if capitalim is the free and rational exchange and > implementation of ideas, resources, intelligence, > discourse, goods and natural means, according to supply and demand, I > also would regard the interests > of people as subject to free market considerations. If we are free to > convene in religious worship or > political debate or scientific study or journalistic reporting under a > free and capitalism paradigm, we are > also free to unionize. Or negotiate new social contracts. Or cancel > outdated contracts. Or establish legality > and legality, Or allow minorities to set up non-contradictory enclaves > to serve their own needs. Or set > up binding minima to what we consider humane treatment. Or establish > basic human rights. This is a > free market of ideas, and one Idea I cherish is the ideal of making sure > people have a chance to grow > beyond the wretched state of their biology, and the natural inclination > of his fellow human to exploit him > as cattle. Yes, collectively we are free to embrace any delusional system we like. And, I guess that it's good that we are. But this places a huge burden on human judgment and intelligence, and often many cultures haven't really been up to the task of choosing wisely. There have been some cultures that did make very wise choices along these lines, and did institute relatively effective institutions and public policies. I think of Rome before 100 BC and the United States, from 1789 to 1855. > Again, I do not in any way oppose what you say. Even though conditions > here are universally far better, livable and > civilized than in gang-ridden and destitute squallor of LA inner cities, > I itch to take up whatever legal arms I can and > lash out at what I regard as evil. And in fact, I do. I won't give you > specifics but I can get donwright vicious when I > see something wrong, Er, I hope have done nothing to offend you :-) I take it back, if I have. :-) > whether it is parents that neglect their children, > or a spouse that abuses his (or her) weaker > mate. And I have acted, and it can be asserted that in those cases > people died of what I did. Yes, I take > responsibility, I took action, situations perceptibly changed and those > I regard(ed) as guilty, they literally entered > situations that culminated in death. > > What I won't do, ever, never, under no circumstances, is kill another > human being, or call for any group of people to > kill another human being. Ah, that's a relief. Now I can go back to blasting you. > Changing conditions that cause a human to die, > is one thing, and it is what it is. To > actually cause death, causally, I do not. It is an arbitrary distinction > but it has meaning for me. For what it's worth, it's not at all an arbitrary distinction to me. To me, it's a totally objective situation: some people have died, and quite a number have---as of this writing---not died. (Yes, there are borderline cases.) > This week the EU president said : America is on the road to Hell > . > > > The EU president is entirely correct. The policies favored > by the Democrats and Obama (which are exactly the same > policies that would have been followed by McCain and the > republicans) ignore the principles of government non-intervention > and the unconstrained operation of the free market. If companies > fail, then they fail, the idea of being "too big to fail" being > simply a failure to admit that short term severe pain leading > back to health is better than protracted (but less severe) > pain leading to total government regulation of everything. > > I call upon you, if you have the courage as a human being, to end this > situation. You fill in what I mean, according to your intellect and wisdom. Attempting to overthrow the government of the U.S. is a crime, a law enacted when the U.S. was worried to death about (actually real and ongoing) Soviet infiltration. But maybe I'm not pondering what you're pondering at all. > I call upon you to end the situation where > two almost equal spouses in a rotten > marriage are strangling each other. Both their necks are blue and > swollen, both their faces scared into a patchwork > of crisscrossing welts. Both are slowly dying. Michelle and Barack are too darkly shaded for me to see the blue and swollen patchwork to which you refer. > If you are not a moral coward, a hypocrite, or a demagogue - I you have I have to be at least one of those, I am sorry to admit > the nerve, I call upon you to do whatever > it takes to end your two-party system. Do your part to end the duality > that has become america. This change will > probably end up doing me more worse than good. This change will almost > certainly end the imperial, > cancerous hubris in US society. This hubris, and all these idiotic policy decisions---which the U.S. has been getting away with since WWI---are solely made possible by all you people outside the U.S. continuing to buy our bonds! Fools. See? The U.S. Treasury is making all your investments valueless, heh, heh, heh. (Unfortunately, it is also severely punishing prudent savers like me.) > ...people's movements. What you then do > (and this would be a novel concept in US thinking) is vote, those > parties form a coalition, and those coalitions > rule under an elected president. > > Anyone who thinks this won't work, I would suspect of being an > undemocratic swine, Oh, go ahead. Tell us what you really think. > and I don't like those, for > reasons above - and in the current US, both liberals and conservatives > have delusions of grandeur, empowered > by the delusion their chosen patriarch can have dictatorial powers for > 4-8 years, and "get the job done". > > If you prefer that, go on strangling. My estimate stands - civil war in > the US and millions dead before 2025. Nah. By then the U.S. will have completed the conversion to third-world status, with prosperous middle class types in the small, small minority---a minority too small to wage civil war. Since 1865, the U.S. and Canada have been remarkably peaceful. Has any area this large in the history of the world been without war and serious starvation? No, this laid-back attitude will doubtless continue. Because almost everyone here puts money above everything, we have been spared Europe's horrors and tragedies. Lee > > It is an immature, condescending, "winner takes all" system. It is a > system that works to fulminate a top dog, who then > snarls the deckhands into submission and pays of allies. It is imperial > Rome all over again, a system to create > bubble after bubble, burst after burst. It is what Naome Wolf calls > "disaster capitalism". > > And I despise it, with every fiber of my being. From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 11:52:35 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:52:35 +1100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/29 Lee Corbin : > It's also quite likely (in my opinion) that in those two > states I gave that were relatively less corrupt, they > possess greater trust, in Fukuyama's sense of the term. > Diversity, quite a number of people are beginning to > realize, reduces trust, creates divisions, and supports > mutual hostility (despite the earnest pleadings of the > media and propagation outlets (schools)). Multiculturalism seems to work well in Australia and Canada, and I'm sure in many parts of the US. > I have to agree (though you need not reach back to the Nazis > for a demonstration). The evils of the world are *not* mainly > due to personality (I am *so* glad you agree, given the current > climate of demonization of greedy capitalists and what-not, who > many see as a personal exhibition of evilness). There is probably a higher incidence of high-functioning psychopaths in senior management jobs, but I don't expect this would be different for private enterprise, elected officials or bureaucrats. > Instead the > evils of the world for most part are do to bad or inadequate > institutions, e.g. the unequal distribution of capitalism, > the unequal distribution of lawful behavior, and the unequal > distribution of liberty. In other words, the environment rather than genetics. >> There are plenty of examples of third world countries where the >> government does everything it can to suppress any activity that might >> be construed as impeding business, for example by eliminating trade >> unionists or other liberal/lefty types, not to mention refraining from >> spending any money on public services, and these countries are a total >> mess. > > I imagine that the ones you have in mind are the kleptocracies > run by a dictatorial elite for their own benefit. If you have > other examples, I'd love to hear them, thanks. I'm thinking of the numerous Latin American dictatorships supported by the US Government because a democracy may have turned to the left and jeopardised US political and commercial interests. That it took a brutal dictatorship to prop up a free enterprise system which then functioned suboptimally due to corruption is an argument that could also be used to excuse the economic failure of communist states. The lesson seems to be that the successful states are those where the people are allowed to decide for themselves how socialist or capitalist they want to be, and continually revise their decision depending on the outcome. -- Stathis Papaioannou From lcorbin at rawbw.com Sun Mar 29 14:23:23 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 07:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CF845B.8050003@rawbw.com> John Grigg wrote: > Lee wrote > > > If there was such a petty tyrranical > > all-knowing being that runs *everything*, okay, I'm on > > my [knees] however many times a week He wants. Now, if He > > were just Good, it might even be entirely worth it! (I'm > > not too proud to worship if the alternatives are worse.) > > I prefer the Mormon concept of God as our literal Father in Heaven. "As > /man/ is, /God/ once was; /as God is, man may become/." As far as deities go, the Mormon God has always been my favorite, the faith stipulating complete philosophical materialism, as it were. > And so life is > viewed as a sort of divine boot camp to test people, and those who > choose to love and serve their Heavenly Father will in time become gods > themselves, creating worlds and peopling them with their own children. To "test" people? Then the Old Boy is not omniscient? That would be fine by me, but is that really the LDS claim? As for the rest, it sounds like "Microcosmic God", and would easily fit into "our universe is just a simulation" ideas. (Nick Bostrom could follow in the line of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, if he could only wrap his mind around polygamy, the economically best solution promoting eugenics that an advanced culture (19th century or beyond) is capable of.)) Hey, that's not bad! God was a teenager who created our universe as a homework problem, but let his old testament wrath get out of hand. Upon mature reflection a few years later, he arranged for Christ to soften the message. Meanwhile, we need only worry about him shutting down this simulation because He's got better things to do... Lee From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 29 16:36:16 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:36:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> "Lee Corbin" > If God exists, he is not good (and, as you know, >if God is good, then he does not exist). Yes indeed, and because of that in a way I have more respect for the fundamentalist anti Darwin crowd than the so called religious moderates. The moderates love to say that there is no discrepancy between religion and Darwin's Theory of Evolution. They say that a modern logical freethinking man should be able to believe in both; but the fundamentalists can sense the truth, they know that a more hideously cruel method of developing higher life forms can not be imagined. John K Clark From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 29 17:31:47 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> Message-ID: About a year ago a method was found that could turn an adult skin cell into a cell that appeared to behave identically to an embryonic stem cell. However there were concerns about using these cells in therapy because they had to use exotic genes to get it to work and some of those genes have been linked to cancer. In addition a virus was used as a vector and some of those genes get permanently incorporated in the new cell too. In the March 26 issue of the journal Science James Thomson and his team report that they have found a way to use a plasmid to get the genes into the cell so there are no virus genes to worry about, and even more important once the exotic genes have done their work reprogramming the cell they found a way to remove them. Thomson says: "We believe this is the first time human-induced pluripotent stem cells have been created that are completely free of vector and transgene sequences" This field is advancing with Moore's law like speed. John K Clark From moulton at moulton.com Sun Mar 29 19:53:52 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:53:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> On Sat, 2009-03-28 at 22:58 -0700, Lee Corbin wrote: > But it's either that or eventually perish. France, for example, > needs to do what it would instantly have done in any century > before the 20th, namely expel its Muslim population. It's > either that or cease eventually to have a modern western > society at all! > If ever there is created a collection of ridiculous and completely disgusting statements to have ever been posted to this list then the above would surely be near the top of the list. Expelling the Muslim population would violate long standing principles of freedom of religion and rule of law and equal protection under the law. And where would they be expelled to? Since many are French citizens where would they be sent? I really wonder if anyone advocating expelling the Muslim population from France has actually given even a second of serious thought to the matter but instead just simply spewed forth with a load of vicious unreasoned bilge. I am tempted to ask if during the proposed expulsion if the Muslim population will be put in railway cars and if the use of cattle prods will be obligatory or mandatory. However I will refrain from asking those questions but I will ask if anyone seriously thinks that expelling the Muslims from France would really make any progress in generating tolerance and progress in Europe or world wide. Or would it cause a further conflict and suspicion? Fred From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Mar 29 22:25:32 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:25:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Easter Island again In-Reply-To: <49CEF56E.8070305@rawbw.com> References: <49CB0F64.1050909@rawbw.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090326003837.0232d010@satx.rr.com> <49CC0CF8.3040008@rawbw.com> <49CEF56E.8070305@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1238365966_8930@s7.cableone.net> At 09:13 PM 3/28/2009, Lee wrote: >Alas! So many great emails, so little time :-( > >Keith writes snip >(in the below, you do not address hydroponics specifically >---have you looked into it?) When I was in junior high school I built a heated greenhouse and raised, or rather tried to raise, hydroponics tomatoes in the middle of the winter. They never set fruit, but when I gave up in the spring my dad put some of them in the garden where (with the right day length and temperatures) they did make lots of tomatoes. It was an interesting experience. Hydroponics requires a steady stream of chemicals to replace those the plants are taking up. The problem wasn't raising plants on Easter Island. It's rich volcanic soil. Meat was a more difficult problem. The only domesticated animal they had was chickens. Before they lost the ability to go to sea in a big way, they were eating a lot of porpoises. No matter the details of when they got there or how high the population went, or the effect of the rats (which Diamond discusses in relation to the trees) the important point is that they lost the materials to make boats in the ecological collapse. One thing Diamond doesn't mention which is apparent from the 1260 collapse of the southwest corn farmers is that warfare and farming are a bad combination. The point of discussing this is the context of trying to build up industry on the moon. Lunar resources are in the same class as what you have available on Easter Island, rocks. If you don't think you could build up an industrial base on Easter Island, the same might apply to the moon. Keith From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 29 23:04:27 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:04:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> Il 28/03/2009 16.22, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> For example, there >> have been periods in European history where it was felt that it was >> the duty of Christians to slaughter the infidels, while in the Ottoman >> empire the right of Christians and Jews to practise their religion >> unmolested was upheld by the Sultan. This was consistent with the >> Quran's attitude towards "people of the Book". > > Too bad the courtesy was hardly extended to "pagans" (e.g., "wizards", > zoroastrians, etc.), but you are right in saying that traditional > Islam was way more multicultural and "liberal" than judeochristianism, > and that it learnt to a large extent the virtues of religious > intolerance and missionarism by the latter. Islam, as showed by its founder in deeds and teaching, was violent from the starting point. Do you want I post a collection of Hadits telling who Mohammad killed or ordered to kill? Or how he owned slaves, raided caravans, enslaved the people and sold them? Or how he raped women the same day he killed their father and husband? Or how he ordered to kill people that changed their religion from Islam to something else? It is all there, in the Hadits. Stuff recorded by Muslims and considered truthful by Muslims. And the basis of what the "hard-liners" or the "extremists" preach all days and night. And the reason that the "moderate" are consistently refuted by the "hard-liners"; so, the "moderate" are liars or deluded. Probably this is because they exist alive only in the west world and not in the Middle East or were the Muslims rule. The Hadits are there, people that want read them can read them (in English). Now, with Google, I suppose it is possible to translate from Arabic to English if people want check the texts. There is no reason to continue to believe to this lie, apart because this lie is useful to attack Christendom or Judaism. If I'm wrong, could you point to me where and when Islam learned religious intolerance and missionarism from judeochristianism? By the way, if multiculturalism is keeping "the other" submitted, with less/no rights, forced to pay more taxes or be killed or converterted, be prevented to proselytize, be prevented to build church or synagogues, force "the other" to wear distinctive cloths and much more, Yes, Islam was from the starting and is very multicultural. By the way, I suppose that also the Nazis could be called multicultural, as they formed an SS division with the Muslims from Bosnia (Hitler admired Islam and disparaged Christianity for a reason). Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 29 23:07:30 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:07:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49CFFF32.7020308@libero.it> Il 27/03/2009 21.39, Dagon Gmail ha scritto: > whereas I'd have the Prince extradited, sentenced to > servitude as collared > janitor in a home for elderly and incontinent nuns. I see self interest in this. :-) Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 29 23:24:26 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:24:26 +0200 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D0032A.7050305@libero.it> Il 27/03/2009 22.23, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: > Noooo, don't say that. The "Lightbearer", a kind of Jewish Prometheos, > who dared take destiny in its hand and decide to be "like a god"... :-) > An archetipical transhumanist, I should say. I would say not. Because he believed to be like God or more, not tried to change to be better then himself and God. And, probably, this was his flaw. If a God exist and is good and want to create others that can know Him and be with Him like Him, he have a problem. He can not simple create them perfect, because they would be fixed and immutable; they could obey, they could don't take a stand or they could rebel against him (see Dante - Divina Comedia). They would be a simple extension of Him, without the Free Will needed to satisfy the reason of their existence. So, he need to grow His objects of love so they are independent and willing to love Him sincerely. So He must place many obstacles (natural selection?) to select the right breed of people (evolution). I would say that is a hell of a project. But, if you are alone and with all the time and power of the Universe (and more), why not? Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Mar 29 23:27:31 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:27:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> Il 26/03/2009 16.24, Rafal Smigrodzki ha scritto: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > > The case is not against GM per se, >> but against the bastards like Monsanto who manipulate the law to screw >> everyone else. > > ### The bastards at Monsanto manipulate genes, not law. Why do so many > people hate those who do the most to feed the many? Because they would hate themselves if they don't project the hate against someone else. And attacking someone that will not retaliate violently it is much safer. Mirco From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 23:43:57 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:43:57 +1100 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> Message-ID: 2009/3/30 painlord2k at libero.it : > Islam, as showed by its founder in deeds and teaching, was violent from the > starting point. > Do you want I post a collection of Hadits telling who Mohammad killed or > ordered to kill? Or how he owned slaves, raided caravans, enslaved the > people and sold them? Or how he raped women the same day he killed their > father and husband? Or how he ordered to kill people that changed their > religion from Islam to something else? > > It is all there, in the Hadits. Stuff recorded by Muslims and considered > truthful by Muslims. And the basis of what the "hard-liners" or the > "extremists" preach all days and night. And the reason that the "moderate" > are consistently refuted by the "hard-liners"; so, the "moderate" are liars > or deluded. Probably this is because they exist alive only in the west world > and not in the Middle East or were the Muslims rule. > > The Hadits are there, people that want read them can read them (in English). > Now, with Google, I suppose it is possible to translate from Arabic to > English if people want check the texts. > > There is no reason to continue to believe to this lie, apart because this > lie is useful to attack Christendom or Judaism. > > If I'm wrong, could you point to me where and when Islam learned religious > intolerance and missionarism from judeochristianism? I don't deny that Islam is a brutal religion, but so were Judaism and Christianity in their time. It is modern secularism that has toned down the violence, and secularism has not taken off as much in Islamic countries as it has in formerly Christian ones. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 23:56:18 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:56:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> Message-ID: <580930c20903291656s1e01748ci1bd9767b843f1687@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 1:04 AM, painlord2k at libero.it wrote: > Islam, as showed by its founder in deeds and teaching, was violent from the starting point. > Do you want I post a collection of Hadits telling who Mohammad killed or ordered to kill? No, I take it on your word, and anyway I have no business in defending Islam's "shortcomings". My only contention is that whenever it said something which can be criticised from this POV it did so on good authority from its own monotheistic roots. :) > If I'm wrong, could you point to me where and when Islam learned religious intolerance and missionarism from judeochristianism? The Old Testament? The crusades? The Spanish "Reconquista" that my friend Guillaume Faye seems nowadays to like so much? The inquisition? The witch hunt? The ethnocidal efforts of missionaries in Africa, Asia, the Americas? But, there again, who cares? Islam might or might not be marginally better than christianism in this or that aspect (e.g., with regard to pre-implantation diagnosis or the teaching of ID in western schools). Its metaphysical fundamentals, however, remain nevertheless just as at odd with a transhumanist anthropology as any other such religion. And certainly I do not welcome its forced import in Europe, to some extent sponsored by the US, if anything because muslims still believe in their God more than European christians in average do. -- Stefano Vaj From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 00:59:30 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:29:30 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903291759y1666a78agf31f931e4fa62fe6@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/29 John Grigg : > I prefer the Mormon concept of God as our literal Father in Heaven.? "As man > is, God once was; as God is, man may become."? And so life is viewed as a > sort of divine boot camp to test people, and those who choose to love and > serve their Heavenly Father will in time become gods themselves, creating > worlds and peopling them with their own children. > > John Why would you like this, John? It kind of creeps me out. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 04:04:40 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:04:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903291759y1666a78agf31f931e4fa62fe6@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903291759y1666a78agf31f931e4fa62fe6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903292104h305810b1t69c0a484570b90ed@mail.gmail.com> Emlyn wrote: > Why would you like this, John? It kind of creeps me out. I like the idea of a God that truly shares his power and glory with his children. "Worlds without end, eternal increase." John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Mon Mar 30 04:10:53 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:10:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> Message-ID: <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> John Clark writes > "Lee Corbin" > >> If God exists, he is not good (and, as you know, >> if God is good, then he does not exist). > > Yes indeed, and because of that in a way I have more respect for the > fundamentalist anti Darwin crowd than the so called religious moderates. Yes! That's always been my feeling too. Moreover, I sense that at a deep fundamental level the fundamentalists (sorry) and I are philosophically aligned as complete realists, in a way that many moderates are not. You don't hear fundamentalists saying "Well, you have your truth and I have mine", or "God can be many things to many people" and crap like that. They say, "THERE IS A GOD, AND I'M TOTALLY SURE" Whereas I says, "I'M TOTALLY SURE THAT THERE ISN'T ONE", though I, at least, do admit that 100% certainty about anything cannot be achieved (even this sentence), because as we devotees of Pan- Critical Rationalism believe, *all* knowledge is conjectural, provisional, and tentative. > The moderates love to say that there is no discrepancy between religion and > Darwin's Theory of Evolution. They say that a modern logical freethinking > man should be able to believe in both; Right. > but the fundamentalists can sense the truth, they know that a more hideously > cruel method of developing higher life forms can not be imagined. There you are dead wrong. I can easily imagine a far, far more cruel world. What if every amoeba, every plant, and every animal had the capacity to suffer as much as we do? Now *that* would be a *lot* closer to total hell (though it's still easy, for me at least, to imagine far worse than that). You can too. Just try. Lee From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 04:15:19 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:45:19 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <2d6187670903292104h305810b1t69c0a484570b90ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903291759y1666a78agf31f931e4fa62fe6@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903292104h305810b1t69c0a484570b90ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903292115i2f46cf07p1afbd13ef9a27306@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/30 John Grigg : > Emlyn wrote: >> >> Why would you like this, John? It kind of creeps me out. > > I like the idea of a God that truly shares his power and glory with his > children. > > "Worlds without end, eternal increase." > > John Whereas, you know, he makes all these big promises, but then 2000 years go by and he hasn't called. I suspect He's just not that into you, girlfriend. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 04:26:02 2009 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:26:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0903292115i2f46cf07p1afbd13ef9a27306@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <2d6187670903282210s28f4db0ao210a18076a14fab9@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903291759y1666a78agf31f931e4fa62fe6@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903292104h305810b1t69c0a484570b90ed@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc0903292115i2f46cf07p1afbd13ef9a27306@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d6187670903292126y7a6492abm99521c2657030576@mail.gmail.com> Emlyn wrote: > Whereas, you know, he makes all these big promises, but then 2000 > years go by and he hasn't called. I suspect He's just not that into > you, girlfriend. We're still just in the pregame show. John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcorbin at rawbw.com Mon Mar 30 04:32:45 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:32:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Fred writes > Lee Corbin wrote: > >> But it's either that or eventually perish. France, for example, >> needs to do what it would instantly have done in any century >> before the 20th, namely expel its Muslim population. It's >> either that or cease eventually to have a modern western >> society at all! > > If ever there is created a collection of ridiculous and completely > disgusting statements to have ever been posted to this list then the > above would surely be near the top of the list. You have such a charming way of weaving these logically impeccable and airtight arguments. Oh. Oops. There wasn't an argument there. Nor even an iota of reasoning! > Expelling the Muslim population would violate long standing principles > of freedom of religion and rule of law and equal protection under the > law. Oh yes, I admitted that. Sometimes in order to survive you have to challenge long standing principles of freedom. What happened to the guy I used to know who proudly exhibited the sticker "Question Authority" on the bumper of his car? > And where would they be expelled to? Since many are French > citizens where would they be sent? People ridicule French ability to commit and French resolve---but sometimes they can come through! On day one of World War II, the French put four million men on the line against Germany. Four million men! And that from a country with fewer than 50 million in total population. Could the U.S. put 30 million men on the line even against a space alien invasion? I doubt it. If the traditional non-Muslim French mobilized four million men, they could put the Muslims anywhere they wanted this side of the moon. They could distribute it over any set of non-nuclear Arab countries they wanted (France, you recall, has long had The Bomb). > I really wonder if anyone advocating expelling the > Muslim population from France has actually given > even a second of serious thought to the matter but > instead just simply spewed forth with a load of > vicious unreasoned bilge. And what happened to the Fred C. Moulton I knew twenty years ago who always employed carefully reasoned non- emotional argument instead of insult (and in this case, absurd insult)? And do you really want to stand by the guess (for what else could it be?) that I have not spent more than one second of serious thought about this? And how dare you say that *no* one who believes oppositely from you on this issue (or on any issue) has not spent more than a very brief time thinking it through? How do you know that? Consulting your gut again? To me, it smacks of not a little arrogance to so cavalierly dismiss other people's seriousness and their ability to reason. > I am tempted to ask if during the proposed expulsion if the Muslim > population will be put in railway cars and if the use of cattle prods > will be obligatory or mandatory. My guess? (For, I admit, I haven't worked out the *logistics* themselves in any detail, though as explained above, it could not be that difficult). Naturally the cattle prods would be used only if necessary. Railroad cars sound like a great way to get them to ports on the Mediterranean, by the way. > However I will refrain from asking those questions Oops. Too late. Question not un-asked in time! > but I will ask if anyone seriously thinks that expelling > the Muslims from France would really make any progress > in generating tolerance and progress in Europe or > world wide. My answer is no, it would *not* make progress in generating tolerance. But it would *save* a great deal of the present tolerance and rule of law always exhibited by modern European nations and never (or very, very rarely) exhibited by Muslim nations. If you're going to lose, it's better to lose a little than a lot. John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, and Franklin Roosevelt understood this very well. > Or would it cause a further conflict and suspicion? Indeed it would. Other non-assimilatable groups around the world would get very nervous, and very soon. I say "good"! Assimilate or else! Lee From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:17:01 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:17:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903271910y300ad6dh4b1259462632075e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903271910y300ad6dh4b1259462632075e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903271917m2e17cf08x768792872cae03fd@mail.gmail.com> > Rafal: > As much as it pains me to admit it, being an atheist, religious people > seem to have a better handle on their family lives. Having a big daddy > in the sky ready to spank you if you misbehave is a good aid to good > intentions. > > A long marriage is not necessarily a happy or healthy one. Some catholics have unnaturally extended marriages, like a coma patient plugged into life support. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:24:40 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:24:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <580930c20903271423t29335f8cq785829b9f9e948fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903271924l345a2532y7bb99cf21f19e83a@mail.gmail.com> I had a dream the other day that C3po was the American President. He wouldn't accept bribes and rebuffed all the lobbyists. He was there to regulate and reform. But he wasn't principled he was just programmed to follow the rules. His foreign policy was simply to avoid conflict at all cost. In short: let the wookie win. It was only after I woke I realized who his running mate would have been. Bloop! -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:53:22 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:53:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> Rafal: > AFAIK (I may be wrong, since this is alien thought-space for me) they want > a > "spiritual experience", in addition to the social context. Also, the > payoff is a matter of faith, as any real Christian would tell you, I've attended many churches as an atheist hoping to better understand this spiritual experience. In some they give themselves over to a violent spasmodic trance. Pentecostals and Episcopalians particularly. Thrashing on the floor, jerking arms and spine, howling and shrieking like evil were escaping like steam. Babbling gibberish enthusiastically. That has a very probable endorphin high. People would get addicted to that kind of abandon. Some like the singing. They might attend church because they want to belong musically but feel otherwise blocked. Some go to remind themselves of a low and sinful state so that they might grieve their very existence and be seen weeping. This is not as uncommon as you might think. They want forgiveness for being human. Some are of the Fire and Brimstone school of thought. Who to shun and be against. Many baptists are like this. Down on gays and drunkards, slatterns and shirkers, Mormons and Catholics. May they burn in hell, be glad you're not like them. Amen. Mormons and Catholics tend to have pretty dry services. There is no applause after a performance because it was not intended for approval of the audience but as tribute to God. Its sort of an ordeal of attendance. They go because afterward, they can talk and be like a huge family. Drinking tea or coffee or fruit juice or whatever, eating cookies and donuts, especially things made by members for members. Its a low key party. A Temporary Autonomous Zone of heavily tempered conviviality. Apostolics do clap. They even clap in sync calling it Hand Praise. Lutheran is like Catholic Lite. All the pomp and costume, incense and candles. but Martin Luther decided long ago that worship of Mother Mary was blasphemy. She is a fertility goddess after all, mother of Jesus, king of death and rebirth. When I was a christian, in my days of youth and folly, my pastor told me The world is filled with Darkness. Fear Sadness Despair. People walk in the darkness and tumble off the cliffs of insanity. If you have the Truth, if you have the Light, you are walking in Authority. You have real power to change lives. Walk in the light that others might follow. I believed him and still do. But I no longer think the dead rabbi is coming back to whisk away his chosen people to another dimension and bowls of wrath and many headed beasts and stuff is the truth. Transhumanism is the closest to luminary excellence I have found. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 09:31:21 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 02:31:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] church is sexy: was The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <9ff585550903272103i752d362fx4bc1d88426bc8a93@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <2d6187670903271807t4966826dsbe79b71a063a8228@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090327203559.02615d58@satx.rr.com> <2d6187670903271921n10e1d6afr33b35c073c4d7d39@mail.gmail.com> <9ff585550903272103i752d362fx4bc1d88426bc8a93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903280231m197d9f8ava3cb4d1b318df425@mail.gmail.com> What I see in this article is couples going out of the house to do something together. Whether its basketball or mycology exhibitions or religion or nascar, if both are into it, it will strengthen their bond. Bonding is missing from many marriages and family structures. Church is a family bonding structure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 00:26:07 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:26:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1BA8B719698D4C8C98A8780B255BB8EE@MyComputer> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903291726o2e5115d5i90d57d7e296b4172@mail.gmail.com> > >> ### The bastards at Monsanto manipulate genes, not law. Why do so many >> people hate those who do the most to feed the many? >> > http://www.monsantosucks.com/ http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805 http://www.organicconsumers.org/ge/monsanto_antitrust.cfm Among other things, it sells untested crops and if its good they reap the benefits and if wheat turns to chaff, well they socialize debt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Mon Mar 30 06:01:03 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 23:01:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 19:53 -0700, Chad Robb wrote: > In some they give themselves over to a violent spasmodic trance. > Pentecostals and Episcopalians particularly. Thrashing on the floor, > jerking arms and spine, howling and shrieking like evil were escaping > like steam. Babbling gibberish enthusiastically. I think you may have made a typo since "Episcopalians" are not known for those activities. Also there is a subtle distinction that the persons you describe could be classified as Charismatic and some but not all Pentecostals are Charismatic however there are persons who would call themselves Pentecostal but do not exhibit the Charismatic behavior. However I think we all get the general point you are making. Fred From moulton at moulton.com Mon Mar 30 08:54:33 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:54:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1238403273.5478.194.camel@hayek> On Sun, 2009-03-29 at 21:32 -0700, Lee Corbin wrote: > Fred writes > > > Lee Corbin wrote: > > > >> But it's either that or eventually perish. France, for example, > >> needs to do what it would instantly have done in any century > >> before the 20th, namely expel its Muslim population. It's > >> either that or cease eventually to have a modern western > >> society at all! > > > > If ever there is created a collection of ridiculous and completely > > disgusting statements to have ever been posted to this list then the > > above would surely be near the top of the list. > > You have such a charming way of weaving these logically > impeccable and airtight arguments. > > Oh. Oops. There wasn't an argument there. Nor even an iota of reasoning! There is no argument in the sentence you quoted because the sentence is not intended as an argument; what I wrote was a prediction. And entwined in that prediction was a description; I described your statement as ridiculous and completely disgusting. You were looking for an argument where none was intended. > > Expelling the Muslim population would violate long standing principles > > of freedom of religion and rule of law and equal protection under the > > law. > > Oh yes, I admitted that. Sometimes in order to survive you > have to challenge long standing principles of freedom. You are assuming what would remain after the expulsion would be worth having. What group would they expel next; the Jehovah's Witnesses? > What > happened to the guy I used to know who proudly exhibited > the sticker "Question Authority" on the bumper of his car? What? You are confused again. I have never had a "Question Authority" bumper sticker on my car. And even if I had such a sticker it would not be relevant to this discussion. And if you are somehow trying to make the implication that the idea that France should expel all Muslims is in any way like questioning authority then you are simply deluded. > > And where would they be expelled to? Since many are French > > citizens where would they be sent? > I have eliminated a couple of lines to get to this: > If the traditional non-Muslim French mobilized four > million men, they could put the Muslims anywhere they > wanted this side of the moon. They could distribute > it over any set of non-nuclear Arab countries they > wanted (France, you recall, has long had The Bomb). First not all Muslims are Arabs. Second what is this about the Bomb, by which I assume you mean nuclear weapons. So what if some country decided they could not take a bunch of French speaking people; what would the French do bomb the entire country? Have you seriously thought about what you are saying? Are you really implying that France should threaten the use of nuclear weapons? Are you out of your mind? Third you say "they could put the Muslims anywhere they wanted this side of the moon" do you really mean that? Could they put them in your living room? > > I really wonder if anyone advocating expelling the > > Muslim population from France has actually given > > even a second of serious thought to the matter but > > instead just simply spewed forth with a load of > > vicious unreasoned bilge. > > And what happened to the Fred C. Moulton I knew twenty > years ago who always employed carefully reasoned non- > emotional argument instead of insult (and in this case, > absurd insult)? > > And do you really want to stand by the guess (for what > else could it be?) that I have not spent more than one > second of serious thought about this? Based on what you wrote I saw no evidence of serious thought. And if you remember this is not the first time I have heard you espouse ideas about France expelling the Muslims. > And how dare you say that *no* one who believes oppositely > from you on this issue (or on any issue) has not spent more > than a very brief time thinking it through? How do you know > that? Consulting your gut again? To me, it smacks of not > a little arrogance to so cavalierly dismiss other people's > seriousness and their ability to reason. Frankly at this point I don't care if you think I am arrogant or not. > > I am tempted to ask if during the proposed expulsion if the Muslim > > population will be put in railway cars and if the use of cattle prods > > will be obligatory or mandatory. > > My guess? (For, I admit, I haven't worked out the *logistics* > themselves in any detail, though as explained above, it could > not be that difficult). Naturally the cattle prods would be > used only if necessary. Railroad cars sound like a great way > to get them to ports on the Mediterranean, by the way. The idea of innocent people being jabbed with cattle prods, separated from friends, sent to a foreign country and have their lives disrupted is totally disgusting. > > However I will refrain from asking those questions > > Oops. Too late. Question not un-asked in time! > > > but I will ask if anyone seriously thinks that expelling > > the Muslims from France would really make any progress > > in generating tolerance and progress in Europe or > > world wide. > > My answer is no, it would *not* make progress in generating > tolerance. But it would *save* a great deal of the present > tolerance and rule of law always exhibited by modern European > nations This is an assertion with no evidence. And the assertion is not even well formed. > and never (or very, very rarely) exhibited by Muslim > nations. If you're going to lose, it's better to lose a little > than a lot. John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, and > Franklin Roosevelt understood this very well. Of course this assumes that one can tell the difference between losing a little and losing a lot. > > Or would it cause a further conflict and suspicion? > > Indeed it would. Other non-assimilatable groups around > the world would get very nervous, and very soon. > > I say "good"! Assimilate or else! This is the Extropy-Chat email list and I would have expected that participants would have basic Extropian outlooks. The idea of any kind of forced assimilation is not Extropian; it is anti-Extropian. Fred > Lee > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:30:47 2009 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI)) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:30:47 -0300 Subject: [ExI] Next: teaching the flat earth controversy in TX schools References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090328163918.026b4a38@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <041301c9b133$5bd11f90$0202fea9@cpdhemm> Damien Broderick> I wonder how a teacher would fare who adopted this ID line but taught > with great passion that the Raelian position was far superior to > evolution: that is, UFO aliens had created us. Students wouldn't be > obliged to *believe* this, naturally, but would need to be up to speed on > it at least to the same extent as they have to be on evolution. Then > Scientologists could teach Hubbard's anti-evolution version, and so on, or > cynics could teach it as an instance of ID. Simulation theorists could > follow. Would they be hounded out of the schools? Would the board insist > that only fundamentalist Christian-flavored ID (however hypocritically > disguised) is permissible? It's easily argued that Simulation Theory is > far more scientific than any other variant (being based on computer > science and stats), and the Raelians make that claim as well, since they > appear to be materialists who just think aliens used ID to create us. (How > the aliens came about themselves is unclear.) Indeed. And let's also teach alchemy along with chemestry and mix astrology with astronomy. The classes could also begin with a sacrifice of a goat or a chicken every morning. To appease the gods. You know... Just in case. From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:40:29 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:40:29 +1100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/30 Lee Corbin : > Indeed it would. Other non-assimilatable groups around > the world would get very nervous, and very soon. > > I say "good"! Assimilate or else! Where I live the policy of assimilation was officially replaced by a policy of multiculturalism in the 1970's (the record is not always so good: look up "white Australia policy", "stolen generation", and "mandatory detention"). It has worked very well, and I have never felt unwelcome, let alone unsafe, in any part of Melbourne due to the presence of a large ethnic minority (or in some cases, majority) population: South-East Asian, Middle Eastern, East African, Southern European. So at least with the Australian example, it has been shown that assimilation is not the only way to build peaceful and harmonious communities. -- Stathis Papaioannou From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:51:45 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:51:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/30/09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Where I live the policy of assimilation was officially replaced by a > policy of multiculturalism in the 1970's (the record is not always so > good: look up "white Australia policy", "stolen generation", and > "mandatory detention"). It has worked very well, and I have never felt > unwelcome, let alone unsafe, in any part of Melbourne due to the > presence of a large ethnic minority (or in some cases, majority) > population: South-East Asian, Middle Eastern, East African, Southern > European. So at least with the Australian example, it has been shown > that assimilation is not the only way to build peaceful and harmonious > communities. > The trouble in France, of course, is that the foreign French-speaking people were deliberately imported from former French colonies to do low wage jobs that the resident French people didn't want to do anymore. And the resident French people were delighted to accept the cheap services provided. But the foreign workers faced massive discrimination and prejudice ever since they arrived. And now live in slum, no-hope housing estates on the borders of the cities with no hope of ever assimilating. Naturally they riot and protest from time to time. BillK From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 13:26:01 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:26:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903300626r3c12209q678115e1b954b623@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:32 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > > I say "good"! Assimilate or else! > > Mmhhh, I do not follow you that much on this one, even though such a position is nowadays shared by Guillaume Faye, an author I was criticised for having translated in Italian, in particular in his transhumanism-relevant writings. In fact, I disapprove of unregulated immigration and the trading of manpower as of assets exactly because it tends to destroy diversity and popular sovereignties in the world, both in the departure and destination countries, to the detriment of specific features - such as European tolerance or secularism - which some of us may hold dear. "Assimilation" implies on the other hand the typically islamic (or rather, monotheistic) idea that non-believers can and should be forced to see the error of their ways and be "converted" to a universal truth. Now, while I am only too favourable to a spontaneous evolution of muslim views in a direction more compatible with mine, I have no special desire to "digest" massive numbers of allogenous individuals cut out from their communities and traditions and imported like cattle, along with their beliefs, in my own, in the hope that the global entropic melting pot originating from the process ends up being not-too-unacceptable from a "western" view. Ultimately, I think they should be allowed to protect and maintain their own cultural identity - and that it should be demanded in return that they respect mine, without, say, claiming for the enactement of laws on my territory that be compliant with their own tradition. Ultimately, a diverse world with different legal systems and well-defined local popular sovereignties and ways of life is also IMHO the best bet for transhumanism, allowing the deployment of competitive mechanisms and preventing the global enforcement of legal or "moral" prohibitions against technological and cultural developments which may be conducive to a posthuman change. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 14:13:47 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:13:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Next: teaching the flat earth controversy in TX schools In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090328163918.026b4a38@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090328163918.026b4a38@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903300713y5acfa25cs11772d66f8ad8c8e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Damien Broderick > > I wonder how a teacher would fare who adopted this ID line but taught with great passion that the Raelian position was far superior to evolution: that is, UFO aliens had created us. Students wouldn't be obliged to *believe* this, naturally, but would need to be up to speed on it at least to the same extent as they have to be on evolution. Then Scientologists could teach Hubbard's anti-evolution version, and so on, or cynics could teach it as an instance of ID. You won't believe it, but in Italy we have a few self-defined "extropians" - actually the same who like to imply that I would have... neofascist inclinations - who publish writings of a neocon professor called Carlo Pelanda openly preaching the adoption of research programmes on ID to appease the christians, since "reinforcing the christian good is a priority for the West: fighting Islam, evangelisation of Asia to introduce the concept of individual freedon in order to prepare it to democracy, ... In conclusion, christianity is useful to the social order and to the Western Empire" (sic). See http://www.estropico.com/id306.htm. -- Stefano Vaj From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 05:48:02 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:48:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Superman, Go Home! Message-ID: <2ae60d770903292248l6d7ec20dr43008e6a6c7de80b@mail.gmail.com> People are working on creating amazing special effects from implanted subdermal chips, super-focus contact lenses, regrown organs and other bionics and cybernetics. When Homo Superior walks the Earth, some people will be threatened and others will celebrate them as the future. If they're attractive, they can be celebrities. Legislation protecting enhanced people, especially genetically modified children. Blackberry to brainchip communication. Job Requirements include enhanced reflexes. What would you expect? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 06:54:54 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 23:54:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> > > > I think you may have made a typo since "Episcopalians" are not known for > those activities. I would say, in that case, that these behaviors are regionally practiced. Northwestern Baptists are probably more laid back than Southern Baptists. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 15:56:04 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <92DD66186D7E441D82F5E7F793E943F0@MyComputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Corbin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:10 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. > John Clark writes > >> "Lee Corbin" >> >>> If God exists, he is not good (and, as you know, >>> if God is good, then he does not exist). >> >> Yes indeed, and because of that in a way I have more respect for the >> fundamentalist anti Darwin crowd than the so called religious moderates. > > Yes! That's always been my feeling too. Moreover, I sense that > at a deep fundamental level the fundamentalists (sorry) and I > are philosophically aligned as complete realists, in a way that > many moderates are not. You don't hear fundamentalists saying > "Well, you have your truth and I have mine", or "God can be > many things to many people" and crap like that. They say, > "THERE IS A GOD, AND I'M TOTALLY SURE" > > Whereas I says, "I'M TOTALLY SURE THAT THERE ISN'T ONE", though I, > at least, do admit that 100% certainty about anything cannot be > achieved (even this sentence), because as we devotees of Pan- > Critical Rationalism believe, *all* knowledge is conjectural, > provisional, and tentative. > >> The moderates love to say that there is no discrepancy between religion >> and >> Darwin's Theory of Evolution. They say that a modern logical freethinking >> man should be able to believe in both; > > Right. > >> but the fundamentalists can sense the truth, they know that a more >> hideously > > cruel method of developing higher life forms can not be imagined. > > There you are dead wrong. I can easily imagine a far, far > more cruel world. What if every amoeba, every plant, and > every animal had the capacity to suffer as much as we do? > > Now *that* would be a *lot* closer to total hell (though > it's still easy, for me at least, to imagine far worse > than that). You can too. Just try. > > Lee > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 16:08:10 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:08:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> Message-ID: Me: >> the fundamentalists can sense the truth, >>they know that a more hideously cruel method >>of developing higher life forms can not be imagined. "Lee Corbin" > There you are dead wrong. I can easily imagine a far, > far more cruel world. What if every amoeba, every plant, > and every animal had the capacity to suffer as much as we do? Well, perhaps they do suffer as much as we do. Who knows? I should amend my remark to say that I cannot imagine any objectively defined scheme to develop complex life forms that is more cruel than random mutation and natural selection. John K Clark From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Mar 30 15:45:12 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:45:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903261851i533f44aekc1c9bab56ac80072@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com><2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com><1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> Chad, your comments are assumptive and inaccurate. Episcopalians practice a ritual that is based on standing up when the cross is walked down the vestibule, sitting down during a sermon and kneeling on soft pedestals, when praying and again standing when singing. Otherwise, they sit still and the ritual does not vary from Northern United States to the Southern United States. Nlogo1.tif Natasha Vita-More _____ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Chad Robb Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 1:55 AM To: moulton at moulton.com; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The sky is falling! I think you may have made a typo since "Episcopalians" are not known for those activities. I would say, in that case, that these behaviors are regionally practiced. Northwestern Baptists are probably more laid back than Southern Baptists. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:19:01 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:19:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <580930c20903301019i6babe784yfa34058ee2a3ada3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Natasha, Long time no see... We are in the process of planning the upcoming issues of *Divenire*, the quarterly transhumanist review of the Associazione Italiana Transumanisti, and I was wondering whether there is something of yours which you would especially like to see translated and published in Italian. For instance, as it ?s usually the case for such publication, we have very little if anything at all on art visions... Warmest regards. Yours sincerely, Stefano -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 30 17:25:11 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] German microeconomics hospital novel Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090330122246.026e2200@satx.rr.com> Easy economics through the eyes of nurse Helga by Aurelia End Sat Mar 28, 11:11 pm ET BERLIN (AFP) A cheesy love story dripping with kitsch: Doe-eyed sister Helga falls head over heels for handsome surgeon Robert. It's not the kind of story you would expect to find in an economics textbook. "Sister Helga. You maximise my happiness" is German author Thomas Hoenscheid's latest novel and an eccentric attempt at teaching struggling students the basics of supply and demand. The work of fiction has "silky-haired", "long-legged" Helga falling in love with broad-shouldered Doctor Robert, and being driven to despair in her tireless mission to conquer his heart. Helga portrays the traditional smitten bimbo, intrigued by family secrets, dismayed by risky surgical operations and enchanted by idyllic strolls in the spring breeze. But the surgeon of her dreams is not the moral and humane doctor he appears to be. Instead he is a money-driven businessman, only interested in maximizing his profits and minimizing costs. Devastated, Helga plunges into the world of microeconomics in a desperate attempt to learn what goes on inside his head. A ginger student casts light on the basics of Marxist ideology, and a natter in her hair salon spells out the theory behind the mechanism of price-fixing in a competitive market. Abandoning her former bubble-headed self, the nurse becomes a die-hard fan of the free market. A family outing turns into an "afternoon of Pareto optimality," sending her into a simplified state of perfect well-being. Before treating a sick child, she evaluates whether or not to nurse it to health, concluding that its "depreciation" would be "writedown on a long-term investment." Realising that the loss of a child is also the loss of "spezifisches Beziehungskapital" -- relationship capital -- Helga reassures the mother that she will recover as soon as she finds something more profitable. Hoenscheid even ventures into the unexplored terrain of theoretical romance. "Helga! I love you. Would you like to enter into a long-term contractual agreement, declaring that we will exchange material and sentimental goods?" "All extreme economic theories, like Marxism and the ideal of the perfect free market, seem ridiculous to me," author Hoenscheid -- an economics graduate who was "initially slightly left" but later "became more liberal" -- tells AFP. "I remember that my university lectures were all rather dull," he says, adding that his book is targeted chiefly at "students who need help with their revision." And despite the kitschy style, the theories are indeed all rather complex, consisting of difficult mathematical explanations and technical passages. Hoenscheid, who finished writing his novel in June, is proud of the outcome but does have one regret. "If I would've waited until Lehman Brothers went bankrupt, I could have added a section about bankers and the financial markets." Nonetheless, if the story of Helga proves to be a hit, Hoenscheid promises to launch into his next project. "A book on macroeconomics" -- financial issues at state-level, including unemployment, investment, inflation. Helga, he explains focuses more on microeconomics and the behaviour of individual stakeholders, like businesses and consumers. "Perhaps I will make it a police novel, or a country romance set high up in the idyllic Bavarian Alps," he adds. Copyright 2009 Agence France Presse. From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Mar 30 17:24:03 2009 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (hkhenson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:24:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Material from the talk at NASA Ames Message-ID: <1238434278_549@s6.cableone.net> This went to another list, but I thought it might be of interest to some here. Keith >The root problem is the same space flight has had all along--the >rocket equation. All sins flow from the fact that at best one part >in 60 of the liftoff mass gets to GEO or lunar orbit with >chemical fuels. Here it is in graphical form. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_mass_ratio_versus_delta-v.png > >And here is what you need in delta V. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deltavs.svg > >People say correctly that fuel is a small part of the cost of space >flight. That's true, but the rocket wrapped around massive amounts of >fuel is not cheap. I have been talking for some time about a way to >get cost down. I call it "pop up and push." (Better name suggestions >welcome.) The idea is to stack a low performance first stage with a >high exhaust velocity laser stage. > >Of the 10 km/sec needed to LEO, the rocket stage will provide about 2 km/sec. > >So the laser stage has to provide about 12 km/sec of the 14 needed to >get to GEO. > >For a mass ratio of 3, this would require an exhaust velocity of 12 >km/sec, for a mass ratio of 2 about 17 km/sec. 12-17k/sec is not hard >to get with laser ablation. That's between 1/3 and 1/2 >payload. The laser stage is about 1/6th of the mass ratio 3 chemical stage. > >Everybody who has looked at the rocket equation knows that matching >delta V to the mission profile is the way to go. The problem is that >the combination of high thrust and high exhaust velocity takes >ferocious amounts of power to lift anything substantial. Ion engines >have exhaust velocities that range up to 60 km/sec, but thrust in the >milli-gee range--not useful if you have to do a high delta V maneuver in >a hurry. > >Ablation lasers have been considered for earth launch because they can >provide high thrust but the lasers are either really huge or lift >small payloads. > >Using a chemical stage under a laser stage does not add much to the >cost per kg because the rocket is relatively small, relatively low >performance and thus can be reusable like an aircraft, i.e., fly it >twice a day for 20 years. The performance of the chemical stage is >low enough that a Mach 5 winged vehicle might do the job. > >The laser stage does require a substantial amount of power, 4-5 GW (equal >to a ton of TNT per second). But the hang time you get from the >chemical stage allows a low acceleration, just over a g, and the >payload size can be in the 15-25 ton range. > >The laser stays on the ground and is bounced from focusing mirrors in >GEO. The laser stage goes round the Hohmann transfer orbit one and a >half times so the laser and mirrors will be in the right place to >circularize its >orbit to GEO. The rockets launch every 15 minutes to keep the laser >busy. This provides a flow of materials to GEO of 60-100 tons per >hour, just what is needed for serious power sat construction. > >That's enough materials over a few decades to replace all fossil fuels >with low cost space based solar power, even liquid fuels can be made >from CO2 pulled out of the air and hydrogen from water for a dollar a >gallon. > >The long form of the slides for the talk are here: >http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/library/CO2andSpaceResources.ppt >The only one besides the delta v and mass ratio slides above needed to >understand this proposal is the "Optimum flight angle" slide. > >Dr Jordin Kare (most of the detail in this is from his work) thinks a >1/1000th scale (5 MW) test laser could be built for a reasonable sum. >Not only would it prove out ablation laser propulsion above the >atmosphere, but it would be able to de-orbit 500 tons of space junk a >year. > >The amount of money being talked about in carbon cap and trade is so >high that this project could be funded to profitability on perhaps >1/3rd of it. > >There are a lot of people gettomg interested in this concept. I >could use advice as to where to take it next. > >Keith From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:52:07 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:52:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <580930c20903301019i6babe784yfa34058ee2a3ada3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> <580930c20903301019i6babe784yfa34058ee2a3ada3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903301052m211f91ffv2098655656d9196e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote: > Dear Natasha, > Oops. Sorry for the unintended addressing of this message to the entire list. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 20:32:02 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:32:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Civil Heretic - Freeman Dyson Message-ID: <4A0BFAB6E22548FD87D18A48540C8C13@MyComputer> There is an article about physicist, global warming skeptic, and all-around genius at: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Freeman%20Dyson&st=cse I thought the article was excellent, really first rate, highly recommended! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:04:35 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:04:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903262019x6b571097k5accdfd6f303cbd6@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/30 Natasha Vita-More > Chad, your comments are assumptive and inaccurate. > > Episcopalians practice a ritual that is based on standing up when the cross > is walked down the vestibule, sitting down during a sermon and kneeling on > soft pedestals, when praying and again standing when singing. Otherwise, > they sit still and the ritual does not vary from Northern United States to > the Southern United States. > I attended St. Paul Episcopal Church for a year as a christian. Though they didn't do the frantic stuff, they did talk about evil spirits and even performed an exorcism upon my little brother. I do remember the singing of down the Via Dolorosa on Easter with the Jesus-Guy carrying a cross through the isles. We didn't have the soft pedestals though. The Emanuel Apostolic Embassy did do the holy freak out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:12:24 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:12:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> <2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/30 Chad Robb : > I attended St. Paul Episcopal Church for a year as a christian. Though they > didn't do the frantic stuff, they did talk about evil spirits and even > performed an exorcism upon my little brother. > I do remember the singing of down the Via Dolorosa on Easter with the > Jesus-Guy carrying a cross through the isles. > We didn't have the soft pedestals though. > The Emanuel Apostolic Embassy did do the holy freak out. Sorry to say that, but protestants are hopeless amateurs in this kind of stuff. You want the Real Thing, you must go for the catholic church, especially some congregations thereof. -- Stefano Vaj From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Mar 30 21:24:48 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:24:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the Battlestar Galactica series finale In-Reply-To: References: <2d6187670903210148u5c06df5fm33d1eecbe2fa1b94@mail.gmail.com> <025801c9abb7$8111c4c0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm> Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2009, at 5:10 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: >> >> Any other reasons why you think the writers didn't intend that the >> ultimate explanation was supernatural? > > It doesn't really matter what the writers intend. What matters is how > viewers interpret the end result. > It doesn't matter in any case, does it? There are a lot of things that seem to me to much more clearer matter just now. - s From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Mar 30 21:33:55 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:33:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2009, at 1:11 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > Stefano writes > >> > To me, attempting to make true criminals into better >> > people exhibits sheer arrogance on our part. >> I fully agree. >> See also the tale of the Pale Criminal in Thus Spake Zarathustra > >. >> More modestly, what we can say is that every society attempts to >> make its members more functional to its value system and internal >> working through punishments and rewards, not to mention a pinch of >> propaganda during punishment. > > Yes. While we may say, objectively, that some societies are > more advanced than others technologically, it's difficult > to make the case that some are more advanced than others > morally. No it isn't. The society makes most decisions based on secular reasoning and politics versus according to some ancient book interpreted by priestly caste is one first cut. Individual rights are respected and individuals are at least in principle treated equally by the law is another. I believe you can make a pretty fair argument that these things grow out of a better morality. I don't believe for a second that it is all relative when it comes to morality or cultures. I think that is one of the most poisonous notions there is. > Of course, *we* embrace---and should embrace--- > on this score that our values are preferable and "better", > but I don't think that these are really scientific claims. > It is not a matter of science. So what. That does not mean it is arbitrary. > That is, the Aztec practice of torturing small children to > death in order to make it rain can be criticized with 100% > objectivity on scientific grounds (it doesn't work), and > can be seen as primitive and barbaric. Yet our vigorous, > unrelenting denunciations of the morality of their solution > ---denunciations which should be acerbic, tendentious, loud, > and near hysterical---should simply be seen for what they > are: our wishes to supplant their morality with ours. > Namely, us vs. them. > Sorry. You have been tooting this horn a long time and you are dead wrong. All efforts to debug this meme of yours have failed so I want try again. - samantha From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 30 21:35:38 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:35:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com><2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com><1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek><2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com><8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1><2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj > Subject: Re: [ExI] The sky is falling! > > 2009/3/30 Chad Robb : > > I attended St. Paul Episcopal Church for a year as a > christian. Though > > they didn't do the frantic stuff, they did talk about evil > spirits and > > even performed an exorcism upon my little brother... > > Sorry to say that, but protestants are hopeless amateurs in > this kind of stuff. You want the Real Thing, you must go for > the catholic church, especially some congregations thereof. > > -- > Stefano Vaj Possibly so, but the most hard core religionists you will find anywhere are those private groups who have no affiliation with any mainstream denomination, and must be found with considerable effort, for they do not advertise. Often they meet in private homes. Groups of charismatics may be found in nearly every denomination, but I was surprised to hear of Chad Robb's experience in the Episcopalians. Ordinarily the Episcopalians are among the most placid, staid and benign of the current surviving religions. The one group I know of was little more than a country club with a quasi-religious backdrop, used by the more affluent to meet and greet. As far as I could tell there was little if any basic doctrine in which they insisted. It would be easy to imagine finding Freeman Dyson at one of these churches. spike From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Mar 30 21:37:06 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Samantha=A0_Atkins?=) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:37:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Dagon Gmail wrote: > Annoying that only now the world starts looking critically at the US- > central free market > paradigm, after it more or less *caused* a worldwide economic > meltdown (and more > to come). Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in the US a "free market" shows a singular misunderstanding of what a free market is. This has been at best "state capitalism" for quite a while. > > It is like finally looking at the danger of driving in a specific > type of automobile after > it bursts into fire spontaneously. Well, here is solid proof > something's not right. Something is not right for sure. Unfortunately only one in a hundred thousand or so will correctly diagnose the causes. But all will scream for a fix or more likely for vengeance according to their own pet theory and disposition. Thus civilizations crumble. Again. - samantha From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:43:04 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:43:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> <2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903301443o4c33a9adm2e784c1ed2ddc97@mail.gmail.com> The pentacostal Church in my hood was a scary place that pandered to Teens wishing to get closer to God. It wasn't all bad. The teens had a band who played pop gospel and some of their original stuff. There was a diner where people could buy rootbeer floats and cheeseburgers. There were pooltables everywhere. The priest though, burned Charmed books, Broke Tool CDs, and spoke against Dawsons Creek for having a sympathetic gay character. And I saw happy and apparently healthy normal teenagers weep in shame at what God must think of them for the music they listen to and the television they watch. It sickened me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 30 21:17:50 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:17:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com><49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com><49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com><49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <9E65C3C43EA14050B33A54146A62B180@spike> > ... John K Clark ... > In the March 26 issue of the journal Science James Thomson > and his team report that they have found a way to use a > plasmid to get the genes into the cell so there are no virus > genes to worry about... > This field is advancing with Moore's law like speed. > > John K Clark John have you noticed the roaring silence in the mainstream media about this breakthru? You can find it if you know right where to look, but the news people seem curiously reluctant to talk about it. Anyone care to speculate why that might be? spike From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Mar 30 21:55:55 2009 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:55:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903270658w2b80163eib21d1f8f6ae8b893@mail.gmail.com><7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com><2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com><1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek><2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com><8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1><2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> Message-ID: <20090330175555.pzo4k3tx4w080c4g@webmail.natasha.cc> Quoting spike : > Groups of charismatics may be > found in nearly every denomination, but I was surprised to hear of Chad > Robb's experience in the Episcopalians. Ordinarily the Episcopalians are > among the most placid, staid and benign of the current surviving religions. > The one group I know of was little more than a country club with a > quasi-religious backdrop, used by the more affluent to meet and greet. Definitely. I was a member for 18 years and lived in many parts of the US. My bio-family is Episcopal and would not put up with such nonsence as suggested by chad Robb. Anyway, who cares. No sense in beating a dying mentality. Natasha From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:56:48 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:56:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] LA Times: California stem cell program needs a new treatment Message-ID: <29666bf30903301456k72cef5d3r4b1b951e45238a44@mail.gmail.com> This brings up SO many issues around funding research -- especially public funding -- I can't even begin to list them. But I'd be curious about your thoughts. PJ http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik30-2009mar30,0,3108872.column >From the Los Angeles Times California stem cell program needs a new treatment The California Institute for Regenerative Medicine threatens to suck up precious fiscal resources of a state with none to spare and is rife with conflicts of interest. Michael Hiltzik March 30, 2009 In the annals of wrongheaded things done with the best intentions, the California stem cell program has always been in a category of its own. The $6-billion program was enacted by voters in 2004 as Proposition 71 after a campaign of exceptional intellectual dishonesty, featuring vignettes of sufferers from diabetes, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and other heartbreaking diseases for which it seemed to promise imminent cures through research into embryonic stem cells. As conceived by a Northern California real estate man named Robert Klein, who remains the program's chairman and guiding spirit, the idea was that California would fill the vacuum created by the Bush administration's ideology-inspired ban on federal funding for much of this research. (President Obama rescinded the ban this month.) The state, according to the hype, would reap billions in profits from the therapies it funded. No one would dispute that finding cures for Alzheimer's, cancer or diabetes is a worthy, even urgent, goal. To its credit, the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine has placed the state at the center of the world of embryonic stem cell research by committing hundreds of millions of dollars in grants for the construction of state-of-the-art labs and the training of a new generation of scientists. But the program threatens to suck up precious fiscal resources of a state with none to spare and is rife with conflicts of interest. Its commitment to public disclosure is spotty. Now it's planning to hand over up to $400 million in taxpayer funds to the biotech industry on terms that may multiply the potential for conflicts and waste. The institute is tangled in a persistent ethical morass. From the start, its safeguards against conflicts of interest by members of its 29-person governing board were sketchy, and provisions for vigorous debate over its goals and methods were nil. Despite a provision in Proposition 71 forbidding a board member to attempt to influence "in any way" a decision involving his or her employer, in 2007 board member John C. Reed tried to get the institute?s staff to reverse the rejection of a grant for the La Jolla-based Burnham Institute for Medical Research, of which he is chief executive. The staff refused. Reed, who should have been bounced from the board, got his wrist slapped by state ethics officials instead. Meanwhile, 18 institutions with representatives on the board have received portions of $552 million in grants from the institute. (I am indebted to David Jensen of the California Stem Cell Report, one of the program's outstanding bird dogs, for this math.) Such logrolling is perhaps inevitable, given that Proposition 71 restricted the board's membership to officers of California research institutions and biotech companies, along with advocates for research in 11 diseases supposedly subject to stem cell-driven cures. Lacking any truly independent members, the board is dominated by Klein and devoid of "genuine debate," observes UC Berkeley Law professor Kenneth Taymor, who spent months studying the body. Indeed, reading transcripts of the board's sessions, one sometimes gets the impression that the only vigorous debate among the members involves which historical figure Klein more resembles, Albert Schweitzer or Mahatma Gandhi. That brings us to the institute's 2009 strategic plan, which calls for floating $400 million in taxable state bonds, much of it earmarked for loans to the biotech industry to finance the development of specific therapies. Is this the best way to spend the state's money? Klein says the great virtue of making loans is that, because the money gets repaid, it can be used over and over again. That's assuming that it does get repaid. Some of the loans, furthermore, will be non-recourse, meaning that if the product fails or can't get further funding before the loan is repaid, the debt will be written off. The loans' target is the "valley of death," the phase of product development that follows publicly funded basic research and precedes clinical trials. Biotech firms traditionally have a hard time raising capital for this phase, because it's very costly and speculative, suggesting that Klein is counting unhatched chickens. But he is ever optimistic: "The first major breakthrough will change the world," he told me. Part of the reason for the move into product development is that the institute's chronic cash crunch -- an outgrowth of the state's financial crisis -- has forced it to scale back or delay some basic research grants. Without a new financial infusion, the institute says, it may run out of money in September. But the shift away from basic research isn't universally welcomed in California's scientific community. "The foundations for stem cell biology are still being constructed, and that takes basic science," says Arnold Kriegstein, a neurologist at UC San Francisco who raised the issue at a recent meeting of the institute's board. Kriegstein contends that in much of stem cell research, product development is premature. He fears that the move in that direction is motivated by a "desire to come up with a real clinical triumph they could claim credit for. I'm concerned that in the rush to get there they may be spending a fair amount of funds on projects that are just not ready yet." Marie Csete, the institute's chief scientific officer, says Kriegstein's concerns are overwrought. "We have no intention of abandoning basic science," she told me, observing that the institute has helped fund more than $600 million in training, research and infrastructure over the last four years. "We've supported basic research in a huge way." She also strongly disagreed that the time is not ripe for product development. "There's very mature work that is quite close to clinical applications," she said, adding that just because there are gaps in our knowledge of stem cell biology doesn't mean all development efforts need to be put on hold. With the change of administrations in Washington and the deterioration in the state's fiscal health, the time has come for a fundamental rethinking of the stem cell program. The debate over its future has to take place in the context of the state's overall needs, not merely among a small group of self-interested board members. Proposition 71 endowed the program with what looked like an embarrassment of riches. The danger is that, without better oversight and broader debate about its policies and goals, it will become simply an embarrassment. Michael Hiltzik's column appears Mondays and Thursdays. Reach him at michael.hiltzik at latimes.com and read his previous columns at www.latimes.com/hiltzik. From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:58:46 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:58:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells In-Reply-To: <9E65C3C43EA14050B33A54146A62B180@spike> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <9E65C3C43EA14050B33A54146A62B180@spike> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903301458n64640f74k31851c33ba450162@mail.gmail.com> John K. C > In the March 26 issue of the journal Science James Thomson and his team > report that they have found a way to use a > plasmid to get the genes into the cell so there are no virus genes to worry > about... > This field is advancing with Moore's law like speed. > > Spike: > John have you noticed the roaring silence in the mainstream media about > this breakthru? You can find it if you know right where to look, but the news people seem > curiously reluctant to talk about it. Anyone care to speculate why that might be? Pro-Stem-Cell Research is Anti-Baby for many people. Even if you found a way to do it without hurting people, many people are turned off by the mention of it. -Chad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 30 21:55:38 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:55:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com><580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> > ...On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" .... > Something is not right for sure. Unfortunately only one in a > hundred thousand or so will correctly diagnose the causes. > But all will scream for a fix or more likely for vengeance > according to their own pet theory and disposition. Thus > civilizations crumble. Again. > > - samantha Thanks Samantha. This is scary: I am seeing things in perfect agreement with your posts. Everywhere I look, I see new evidences of wild power grabs in government, in creation of crises and taking advantage of same to grab more centralized control of everything. I see massive expansion of government power, just the exact opposite of the right way to deal with an economic crisis as demonstrated by Reagan: cut taxes, cut spending, reduce regulation of business and personal lives. It isn't just the US federal government but the California government and the UN that are trying to take advantage of hard times to increase their power. We see governance out of anger. We see the fed running car companies and banks. This will turn more ugly than it is already. It seems power is the new money. The comment never let a good crisis go to waste, has been uttered by both a Secretary of State: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/clinton-never-waste-a-good- crisis-1638844.html And a presidential chief of staff: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-goldberg10-2009mar10,1,7171 121.column Had Orwell lived to hear it, this would have killed him. spike From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 22:12:04 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:12:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com><49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it><49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com><49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com><49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <9E65C3C43EA14050B33A54146A62B180@spike> Message-ID: "spike" > John have you noticed the roaring silence in > the mainstream media about this breakthru? Hey that is not the mainstream media's fault, Madonna is thinking about maybe possibly adopting another baby! You can't expect that a simple and easy way to turn adult cells into safe embryonic stem cells could possibly compete with Madonna. I mean let's face it, some things are important and some things are not. John K Clark From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 22:29:31 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:29:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com><580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Samantha Atkins > Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in > the US a "free market" shows a singular misunderstanding > of what a free market is. This is one of the very very few times where Samantha Atkins is absolutely positively 100% correct. John K Clark From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:43:07 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:43:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:29 PM, John K Clark wrote: > Samantha Atkins >> Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in the US a "free market" >> shows a singular misunderstanding >> of what a free market is. > > This is one of the very very few times where Samantha Atkins is absolutely > positively 100% correct. > John K Clark > Why worry about it? You are *never* going to get a free market where devious wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec humans are involved. BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Mar 30 22:38:50 2009 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:38:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com><49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it><49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com><49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com><49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com><9E65C3C43EA14050B33A54146A62B180@spike> Message-ID: <4D70410B793D45A9A378E1C4FE246550@spike> > ...On Behalf Of John K Clark > Subject: Re: [ExI] Safe Stem Cells > > "spike" > > > John have you noticed the roaring silence in the mainstream media > > about this breakthru? > > Hey that is not the mainstream media's fault, Madonna is > thinking about maybe possibly adopting another baby!... > John K Clark > John I share your cynicism. The whole stem cell field has been as contaminated by politics as has been the science of global climate change. The researchers need to somehow reach the masses with a simple message: forget the ethics and politics for just one minute, and realize that an embryo is someone else. If you use embryonic cells, you must deal with immune system mismatch between you and someone else, as with any organ transplant, using immune system suppressants. You don't want your own immune system fighting tissue that is already programmed to explode into massive quantities of meat, especially with all the immunosuppressants floating around in your system. If you use your own stem cells, that problem is already solved. Perhaps your adult stem cells can be reassigned to do what they already do best: healing your own tissues. The current adult stem cell research is a hundred times bigger story than anything that has gone before it in the field, yet the news is all Madonna, all embryonic stem cells, jeeeez, when will these news people get the foggiest clue? spike From pjmanney at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 23:04:50 2009 From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:04:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: <29666bf30903301604j718489a2n9fb1bda4cb87406@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:43 PM, BillK wrote: >> This is one of the very very few times where Samantha Atkins is absolutely >> positively 100% correct. >> John K Clark > > Why worry about it? > You are *never* going to get a free market where devious > wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec humans are involved. This is one of the very very many times where BillK is absolutely positively 100% correct. PJ From jonkc at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 30 23:15:54 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:15:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com><580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com><93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: "BillK" Wrote: > Why worry about it? You are *never* going to > get a free market where devious wheeler-dealer > shyster smart-alec humans are involved. But you will get perfect government where devious wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec humans are involved. John K Clark From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 01:19:17 2009 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:49:17 +1030 Subject: [ExI] Superman, Go Home! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903292248l6d7ec20dr43008e6a6c7de80b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ae60d770903292248l6d7ec20dr43008e6a6c7de80b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0903301819g32e5d726gf02a839b838add85@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/30 Chad Robb : > People are working on creating amazing special effects from implanted > subdermal chips, super-focus contact lenses, regrown organs and other > bionics and cybernetics. When Homo Superior walks the Earth, some people > will be threatened and others will celebrate them as the future. If they're > attractive, they can be celebrities. Meanwhile Home Sapiens Scientia will continue geeking away in the suburbs of the world, as we like to do :-) > Legislation protecting enhanced people, especially genetically modified > children. > Blackberry to brainchip communication. > Job Requirements include enhanced reflexes. > > What would you expect? Blackberry? Bleh. The day job requirements begin to include enhancements will be very cool. There's been talk elsewhere about what we do when we are made obsolete by AGI, but I think enhanced humans will give them a run for their money; there's no guarantee we get to AGI before we morph into it ourselves. I expect we'll see individuals integrate more and more tightly with the communications networks. We are already on that path, it's particularly exposed in the mobile "phone" continuum. I expect to see some very interesting questions about the nature of identity popping up, as the wall around the self continues to break down. Look for this stuff in the younger generations. -- Emlyn http://emlyntech.wordpress.com - coding related http://point7.wordpress.com - ranting http://emlynoregan.com - main site From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Mar 31 03:07:58 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:07:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: <38E2E66B-3E5E-4B36-AB54-1A22F448B7DE@mac.com> On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:43 PM, BillK wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:29 PM, John K Clark wrote: >> Samantha Atkins >>> Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in the US a "free >>> market" >>> shows a singular misunderstanding >>> of what a free market is. >> >> This is one of the very very few times where Samantha Atkins is >> absolutely >> positively 100% correct. >> John K Clark >> > > > Why worry about it? > You are *never* going to get a free market where devious > wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec humans are involved. > A much freer market than today has at times prevailed. The biggest threat to a free market is the introduction of physical force into economics, i.e., government intrusion into the economy. Markets and basic contract laws and laws against all types of force including fraud deal rather well with less than desirable aspects of human nature as far as economic concerns go. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Mar 31 03:08:30 2009 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: <96CC1FA5-F1CC-42BF-ADA0-1082C08F92A3@mac.com> On Mar 30, 2009, at 4:15 PM, John K Clark wrote: > "BillK" Wrote: > >> Why worry about it? You are *never* going to >> get a free market where devious wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec >> humans are involved. > > But you will get perfect government where devious wheeler-dealer > shyster smart-alec humans are involved. > Good shot! :) From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 04:33:40 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:33:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <1238403273.5478.194.camel@hayek> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> <1238403273.5478.194.camel@hayek> Message-ID: <49D19D24.8040908@rawbw.com> Fred writes > I described your statement as ridiculous and completely disgusting. > You were looking for an argument where none was intended. May I ask what is the utility of such vacuous condemnations? Do you believe "disgusting" to be in any sense whatsoever an objective quality? >> Sometimes in order to survive you have to challenge long >> standing principles [, including that] of freedom. > > You are assuming what would remain after the expulsion would be worth > having. No, I'm not making any assumption. Yes, I do see a real risk any time that principles are violated. On rare occasions expediency is necessary; normally it is not. What group would they expel next; the Jehovah's Witnesses? One could have asked the same of Roosevelt: "What group are you going to intern next? The Russian immigrants? The German immigrants?" His answer would be the same as mine, something along the lines of "We are in a very unusual situation whereby armies of a certain nationality threaten the invasion of our western states. We'll be *very* sorry if these people are not interned. They'll be released after we win or after we lose. We have *no* plans to inter anyone else." I would advise the French: make no plans, and have no intentions of exiling anyone else besides Muslims. Yes, it's too bad that the category "Muslim" is not crisp, and it's too bad that a number of patriotic, loyal, and industrious Muslims will be gathered up---but, as said, France may cease to be a part of Western civilization in four or five more decades unless this step is taken. >> If the traditional non-Muslim French mobilized four >> million men, they could put the Muslims anywhere they >> wanted this side of the moon. They could distribute >> it over any set of non-nuclear Arab countries they >> wanted (France, you recall, has long had The Bomb). > > First not all Muslims are Arabs. Literally, I said that they could exile those people anywhere they wanted to. There are many nations that an angry France could coerce into taking refugees. > Second what is this about the Bomb, by > which I assume you mean nuclear weapons. Yes, in our day the ultimate threat, the ultimate persuader. It is said (I really don't know how accurately) that Dwight Eisenhower ended the Korean war by secretly threating their use against North Korean and Chinese armies if a reasonable peace settlement could not be reached. > So what if some country decided they could not > take a bunch of French speaking people; Boom! > what would the French do bomb the entire country? > Have you seriously thought about what you are saying? Yes. I have. In reality, it would never get that far. France has many, many other ways of exerting pressure long before hidden threats concerning nuclear attack are reached. A four-million man French army, for example, is plenty intimidating with or without a nuclear backup. (But especially with.) > Third you say "they could put the Muslims anywhere > they wanted this side of the moon" do you really > mean that? Could they put them in your living > room? It is necessary in rational discourse to be able to recognize the use of metaphor. Not all statements are to be taken precisely literally; sometimes figures of speech are employed. Since you know this well, it's pretty clear that this exchange has found you grasping (at some points) for anything close to ammunition that can be used. (Warning. The last sentence contained a figure of speech.) >> And how dare you say that *no* one who believes oppositely >> from you on this issue (or on any issue) has not spent more >> than a very brief time thinking it through? How do you know >> that? Consulting your gut again? To me, it smacks of not >> a little arrogance to so cavalierly dismiss other people's >> seriousness and their ability to reason. > > Frankly at this point I don't care if you think I am arrogant or not. Well, do *you* care? > The idea of innocent people being jabbed with cattle prods, separated > from friends, sent to a foreign country and have their lives disrupted > is totally disgusting. Really? You are being simply absurd and unbelievably ignorant not to take very seriously the peril France and other countries face, the ignorance manifesting itself as complete unwillingness to apply the laws of evolution and history---and the many historical examples that come to mind---to the current situation. This last paragraph was a joke. This is Lee Corbin speaking. I never seriously degrade conversation by calling people "ignorant" or characterize them as "absurd". Repeat: I do *not* engage in such name calling, unlike some people who come to mind. The previous paragraph was *only* an illustration of futile animosity-building breech of good manners and wasted breath. >> My answer is no, it would *not* make progress in generating >> tolerance. But it would *save* a great deal of the present >> tolerance and rule of law always exhibited by modern European >> nations > > This is an assertion with no evidence. Naturally. To be technically and literally correct, I could have placed "In my opinion" before that last sentence. But I hoped that since the very first three words of the paragraph were "My answer is..." it would not have escaped you that this was an opinion. I note that you often resort to "this is an assertion with no evidence" while you yourself constantly put forth remarks that far from being evidence based, are solely emotional in nature. So you should talk! >> and never (or very, very rarely) exhibited by Muslim >> nations. If you're going to lose, it's better to lose a little >> than a lot. John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, and >> Franklin Roosevelt understood this very well. > > Of course this assumes that one can tell the difference > between losing a little and losing a lot. It's a risky business, that's for sure. But you do the best you can in life, weighing costs against benefits and one risk against another. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 04:37:33 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:37:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> John Clark writes >>> the fundamentalists can sense the truth, they know that a more >>> hideously cruel method >>> of developing higher life forms can not be imagined. >> >> There you are dead wrong. I can easily imagine a far, >> far more cruel world. What if every amoeba, every plant, >> and every animal had the capacity to suffer as much as we do? > > Well, perhaps they do suffer as much as we do. Who knows? The theory of evolution tells us so. There would be utterly *no* point whatsoever for plants to develop feelings since there is in almost all cases absolutely no action that they could take based upon those feelings. > I should amend my remark to say that I cannot imagine any > objectively defined scheme to develop complex life forms > that is more cruel than random mutation and natural selection. Well, it's hard for me to imagine any alternate objectively defined scheme to develop complex life forms period! Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 04:41:38 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:41:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Civil Heretic - Freeman Dyson In-Reply-To: <4A0BFAB6E22548FD87D18A48540C8C13@MyComputer> References: <4A0BFAB6E22548FD87D18A48540C8C13@MyComputer> Message-ID: <49D19F02.50207@rawbw.com> John K Clark wrote: > *There is an article about physicist, global warming skeptic, and > all-around genius at: * > ** > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Freeman%20Dyson&st=cse > > ** > *I thought the article was excellent, really first rate, highly > recommended!* Yeah, I read that and agree. But that Dyson is "infinitely intelligent"? Hardly sounds plausible ;-) Yet that was the stated opinion of William Press, whose contributions to "Numerical Recipes in C" and whose contributions to general relativity cause me to wonder if he's correct, just because he himself is so smart. Lee From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 06:17:48 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:17:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> "Lee Corbin" > The theory of evolution tells us so. There would be utterly *no* point > whatsoever for plants to develop feelings since there is in almost all > cases absolutely no action that they could take based upon those feelings. That is absolutely true, but nevertheless most people, even most people on this very list who you'd think would know better, think it is untrue. They say they believe completely in evolution, they make all the proper noises, but they still think there is some part of us that does nothing but generate feelings, subjectivity. That is also why they think the Turing Test doesn't work. Their position is completely contradictory of course (a less diplomatic word would be "stupid"), but on this question logic is not important to them. It always is to me. John K Clark From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 06:50:47 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:50:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D1BD47.3070106@rawbw.com> Samantha writes > [Lee wrote] > >> While we may say, objectively, that some societies are >> more advanced than others technologically, it's difficult >> to make the case that some are more advanced than others >> morally. > > No it isn't. Well, I *did* say "objectively" and "technically". :-) > The society makes most decisions based on secular > reasoning and politics versus according to some ancient book interpreted > by priestly caste is one first cut. Individual rights are respected > and individuals are at least in principle treated equally by the law is > another. I believe you can make a pretty fair argument that these > things grow out of a better morality. I agree. But alas, what one can only mean without committing the Naturalistic Fallacy and allowing the is/ought barrier to be crossed, is that you and I *approve* of some moralities more than others. This is because values are not objective. But let me say as strongly as possible *our modern Western morality* is infinitely superior to that of more primitive cultures (not excepting Muslim dominated cultures). Do we torture children to death so that the gods will bring rain, the way that the Aztecs did? Do we use intimidation and even the law to suppress "incorrect" opinion as is done in Muslim governed nations? (Okay---many Western European have made Holocaust Denial a crime, but nobody is perfect. Climate denial isn't a crime here yet, but you can be ostracized by your friends and even have your funding cut off, so maybe we aren't so far "behind" the Western Europeans after all.) > I don't believe for a second that it is all > relative when it comes to morality or cultures. > I think that is one of the most poisonous > notions there is. Poisonous it may be, and I for one wish it were otherwise. But, sadly, it's not. This should not, however, make you or me or any person with good taste step back even an inch from denouncing and castigating these more "primitive" value systems with all the gravity and intensity we can. >> Of course, *we* embrace---and should embrace--- >> on this score that our values are preferable and "better", >> but I don't think that these are really scientific claims. >> > > It is not a matter of science. So what. That does not mean it is > arbitrary. > >> That is, the Aztec practice of torturing small children to >> death in order to make it rain can be criticized with 100% >> objectivity on scientific grounds (it doesn't work), Hey! That's my example originally. Isn't it? :-) Yes, we can criticize it on scientific grounds. But what if it worked? That is, what if you could torture to death a few thousand children and make it rain any time you wanted, and the Aztecs (or we) found it effective. What then? Of course---you and I would still shrilly and vociferously denounce the practice, and so should anyone. Lee >> and can be seen as primitive and barbaric. Yet our vigorous, >> unrelenting denunciations of the morality of their solution >> ---denunciations which should be acerbic, tendentious, loud, >> and near hysterical---should simply be seen for what they >> are: our wishes to supplant their morality with ours. >> Namely, us vs. them. > > Sorry. You have been tooting this horn a long time and you are dead > wrong. All efforts to debug this meme of yours have failed so I want > try again. From moulton at moulton.com Tue Mar 31 06:42:31 2009 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:42:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49D19D24.8040908@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> <1238403273.5478.194.camel@hayek> <49D19D24.8040908@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1238481751.5478.363.camel@hayek> On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 21:33 -0700, Lee Corbin wrote: > Fred writes > > > I described your statement as ridiculous and completely disgusting. > > You were looking for an argument where none was intended. > > May I ask what is the utility of such vacuous condemnations? At least one utility is to make sure that anyone who by chance stumbled onto this exchange would realize that your position is not an Extropian position and is in fact extremely non-Extropian. I would not want a reporter on a deadline to be following links or doing some google searches and to read your posts and mistakenly think that the views you have stated about France and Muslim expulsion are in any way representative of Extropian thought. BillK posted a brief summary of part of the background related to the situation of Muslims in France. I suggest everyone read it. Seriously France is not going to expel all of the Muslims for several reasons and to even suggest that it would be a good idea shows a profound lack of understanding of international law, international relations, military affairs, history and other social sciences. The reason I mention international law first is that understanding the idea of "Crimes against Humanity" would be a good starting place. Fred From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 31 06:53:11 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 01:53:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> At 02:17 AM 3/31/2009 -0400, JKC wrote: >"Lee Corbin" > >>The theory of evolution tells us so. There would be utterly *no* point >>whatsoever for plants to develop feelings since there is in almost all >>cases absolutely no action that they could take based upon those feelings. > >That is absolutely true, but nevertheless most people, even most people on >this very list who you'd think would know better, think it is untrue. They >say they believe completely in evolution, they make all the proper noises, >but they still think there is some part of us that does nothing but generate >feelings, subjectivity...Their position is completely contradictory of course "Nothing but" begs the question a bit (it might have evolved and then been partially repurposed), but are you completely sure that just because sessile plants would gain no value by evolving feelings, this is also true for creatures that gad about, prey upon other nimble creatures for sustenance, and even think and plan? And are therefore able to take all kinds of action based on those feelings? Oh, never mind. Damien Broderick From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 06:53:21 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:53:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <580930c20903300626r3c12209q678115e1b954b623@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> <580930c20903300626r3c12209q678115e1b954b623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D1BDE1.4040404@rawbw.com> Stefano makes many good points in the following. Perhaps we differ only on our risk assessment, e.g. our estimates for the probability that a Muslim culture far less tolerant than ours will take over. Lee Stefano Vaj wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:32 AM, Lee Corbin > wrote: > > > I say "good"! Assimilate or else! > > > Mmhhh, I do not follow you that much on this one, even though such a > position is nowadays shared by Guillaume Faye, an author I was > criticised for having translated in Italian, in particular in his > transhumanism-relevant writings. > > In fact, I disapprove of unregulated immigration and the trading of > manpower as of assets exactly because it tends to destroy diversity and > popular sovereignties in the world, both in the departure and > destination countries, to the detriment of specific features - such as > European tolerance or secularism - which some of us may hold dear. > > "Assimilation" implies on the other hand the typically islamic (or > rather, monotheistic) idea that non-believers can and should be forced > to see the error of their ways and be "converted" to a universal truth. > > Now, while I am only too favourable to a spontaneous evolution of muslim > views in a direction more compatible with mine, I have no special desire > to "digest" massive numbers of allogenous individuals cut out from their > communities and traditions and imported like cattle, along with their > beliefs, in my own, in the hope that the global entropic melting pot > originating from the process ends up being not-too-unacceptable from a > "western" view. > > Ultimately, I think they should be allowed to protect and maintain their > own cultural identity - and that it should be demanded in return that > they respect mine, without, say, claiming for the enactement of laws on > my territory that be compliant with their own tradition. > > Ultimately, a diverse world with different legal systems and > well-defined local popular sovereignties and ways of life is also IMHO > the best bet for transhumanism, allowing the deployment of competitive > mechanisms and preventing the global enforcement of legal or "moral" > prohibitions against technological and cultural developments which may > be conducive to a posthuman change. > > -- > Stefano Vaj > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 06:58:54 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:58:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D1BF2E.2010408@rawbw.com> BillK wrote > The trouble in France, of course, is that the foreign French-speaking > people were deliberately imported from former French colonies to do > low wage jobs that the resident French people didn't want to do > anymore. And the resident French people were delighted to accept the > cheap services provided. Yes, indeed! It's the greed and selfishness and lack of adherence to principle that accounted for the adoption of slavery, and the West paid and is paying a huge price. Each Frenchman, ("le fain?ant"), who has succumbed to this lure has placed his nation in great jeopardy. People should get off their asses and clean their own homes and take out their own garbage. On this score, at least, I'm no hypocrite. The very idea of having *servants* or using the "hired help" is almost as disgusting as that of *worship*, against which I railed yesterday. > But the foreign workers faced massive discrimination and prejudice > ever since they arrived. And now live in slum, no-hope housing estates > on the borders of the cities with no hope of ever assimilating. > Naturally they riot and protest from time to time. All true, I'm afraid. The lazy French probably prefer this situation to having to do their own menial tasks, what's a riot or two if it doesn't get to your part of town? What if it's really only a massive problem for your children to face? Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 07:02:54 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 00:02:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C9C2BD.9010907@rawbw.com> <49CAB1C7.5020601@libero.it> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D1C01E.7000902@rawbw.com> Stathis writes > 2009/3/30 Lee Corbin wrote > >> Indeed it would. Other non-assimilatable groups around >> the world would get very nervous, and very soon. >> >> I say "good"! Assimilate or else! > > Where I live the policy of assimilation was officially replaced by a > policy of multiculturalism in the 1970's (the record is not always so > good: look up "white Australia policy", "stolen generation", and > "mandatory detention"). It has worked very well... I don't listen to the news anymore, but I thought that there had been quite a bit of violence (beach violence?) in Australia between young Muslims and some other group. > and I have never felt > unwelcome, let alone unsafe, in any part of Melbourne due to the > presence of a large ethnic minority (or in some cases, majority) > population: South-East Asian, Middle Eastern, East African, Southern > European. Your time will come. America and its ethnic problems are a harbinger of things to come for you. Not all cultures were created equal. (No, Fred, I do not have any evidence for this---it's just my view, that's all. I gave what little evidence I have in the preceding paragraph.) Lee > So at least with the Australian example, it has been shown > that assimilation is not the only way to build peaceful > and harmonious communities. From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 07:22:25 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:22:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com><49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com><49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer><49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com><49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com><101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: "Damien Broderick" > it might have evolved and then been partially repurposed Logic works in both directions. If the above is correct the truth could still be ferreted out with the Turing test. But that fact (and I insist it is a FACT) is just shrugged off even by members of this list who claim to worship nothing but logic. Nobody can dispute this FACT, at least nobody has in the last decade, it's just shrugged off. I find that focalized mentality to be rather depressing. John K Clark From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 31 07:49:40 2009 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:49:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> At 03:22 AM 3/31/2009 -0400, John K Clark wrote: >the truth could >still be ferreted out with the Turing test. I think the chance of any plants passing the Turing test is fairly remote. >But that fact (and I insist it >is a FACT) is just shrugged off even by members of this list who claim to >worship nothing but logic. Nobody can dispute this FACT, at least nobody has >in the last decade, it's just shrugged off. I'm lost. What is this argument that few here recognize as valid? That a machine can emulate a conscious entity without detection by humans? Maybe that will be demonstrated one day, but since it hasn't happened yet it can hardly be a FACT, just a PLAUSIBLE PROJECTION. Damien Broderick From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 08:41:30 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:41:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com><49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com><49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer><49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com><49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com><101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> "Damien Broderick" > What is this argument that few here recognize as valid? Everyone here agrees that Darwin was right, but nearly everybody here also thinks inelegant behavior can tell us nothing about consciousness. Evolution can't see consciousness, it doesn't give a rat's ass about it, it's only interested in behavior; and yet here we are (or rather here I am) conscious beings. Something does not compute. This FACT is never ever addressed by those who insist that consciousness is something infinitely mysterious, something that can never be explained and for some strange reason is just tacked onto biological intelligence that a machine could never hope to emulate. And remember, these people say they scrupulously believe in Evolution. That position is controdictonary; no, to hell with politeness. That is fucking stupid! John K Clark From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 09:13:21 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:13:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 3/31/09, John K Clark wrote: > Everyone here agrees that Darwin was right, but nearly everybody here also > thinks inelegant behavior can tell us nothing about consciousness. > Evolution > can't see consciousness, it doesn't give a rat's ass about it, it's only > interested in behavior; and yet here we are (or rather here I am) conscious > beings. Something does not compute. > > This FACT is never ever addressed by those who insist that consciousness is > something infinitely mysterious, something that can never be explained and > for some strange reason is just tacked onto biological intelligence that a > machine could never hope to emulate. And remember, these people say they > scrupulously believe in Evolution. > You seem to be talking as though 'Evolution' was designing something. Half the stuff in humans is garbage hangovers from previous adaptions. If you were going to 'design' a human properly you wouldn't include all the failings and design errors that are currently present. Look at all the problems caused by putting the sex organs next to the waste organs. What idiot thought that was a good idea? Just because humans have 'x' ability doesn't mean that Evolution was aiming towards developing 'x'. For example, 'x' might have been useful to a previous ancestor without eyes and is just a hangover that a better adaption hasn't quite got rid of. As wikipedia says 'However, many traits that appear to be simple adaptations are in fact exaptations: structures originally adapted for one function, but which coincidentally became somewhat useful for some other function in the process'. Evolution is a complete kludge. We're lucky we can walk and chew gum at the same time. (And some of us can't do that). :) BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 09:17:21 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 05:17:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it><368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer><2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com><49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com><49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com><4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike><49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com><49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer><49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com><49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com><101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: "Damien Broderick" > I think the chance of any plants passing the Turing test is fairly remote. I agree, and this is yet another victory for the Turing Test. Plants do not act intelligently so they are probably not intelligent. I don't think plants are conscious either, but I admit that's just a hunch. John K Clark From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 09:38:01 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 05:38:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer><49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com><49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com><101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com><4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: <6ADF835419AA45AB8B2A982C0DE974ED@MyComputer> "BillK" > You seem to be talking as though 'Evolution' was designing something. I dare you, show me where I implied or even hinted at that. Come on, I dare you! > Look at all the problems caused by putting the sex organs next to the > waste organs. What idiot thought that was a good idea? Yes, that is a completely idiotic idea, no doubt about it, even the stupidest designer on planet Earth wouldn't do anything that dumb; but Evolution doesn't have ideas, it just does stuff. John K Clark From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:02:36 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:02:36 +1100 Subject: [ExI] To Arms! In-Reply-To: <49D1C01E.7000902@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0E1C.3060201@rawbw.com> <49CC6DB5.1010501@rawbw.com> <49CF0DFF.8070602@rawbw.com> <1238356432.8163.2557.camel@hayek> <49D04B6D.2080809@rawbw.com> <49D1C01E.7000902@rawbw.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/31 Lee Corbin : > I don't listen to the news anymore, but I thought that there > had been quite a bit of violence (beach violence?) in Australia > between young Muslims and some other group. You're probably thinking of the 2005 Cronulla riots in Sydney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots), which as far as I'm aware was unique in recent Australian history. A Google search for "race riots Australia" gives multiple references for the 2005 incident and one reference to the 1873 anti-Chinese riots at the Clunes gold fields. >> and I have never felt >> unwelcome, let alone unsafe, in any part of Melbourne due to the >> presence of a large ethnic minority (or in some cases, majority) >> population: South-East Asian, Middle Eastern, East African, Southern >> European. > > Your time will come. America and its ethnic problems > are a harbinger of things to come for you. Not all > cultures were created equal. I think we have had long enough to see the results of ethnic problems. The pattern is that for perhaps the first decade or two after a new group of immigrants arrives there is some bad feeling towards them from from those already here, but then they are accepted by all except hard core racists. The most difficult times have been during economic recessions, when it is easy for unemployed Australians to blame the newcomers for taking their jobs. There are, as you might expect, certain ethnic groups over-represented in the crime statistics compared to the Australian born population. According to table 4.1 in the following paper from the Australian Institute of Criminology, people from Romania, Yugoslavia, the Soviet republics, Vietnam, Lebanon, Turkey, Fiji, New Zealand and Cambodia (in descending order) are more likely to be charged with crimes than the Australian born, while people from other countries are less likely to be charged with crimes. http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/ethnicity-crime/ethnic-ch4.pdf -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:34:31 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:34:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: <580930c20903310334r60be263duf347466349e311d8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:29 AM, John K Clark wrote: > Samantha Atkins > > Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in the US a "free market" >> shows a singular misunderstanding >> of what a free market is. >> > > This is one of the very very few times where Samantha Atkins is absolutely > positively 100% correct. > Except for the fact that I think that Samantha may be right a little more often than that, I concur. I suspect that most traditional free-market theoreticians would recoil in horror face to the current working of western economies. -- Stefano Vaj -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:40:53 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:40:53 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The sky is falling! In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903301443o4c33a9adm2e784c1ed2ddc97@mail.gmail.com> References: <7641ddc60903261735m2f8c2279wd804d08538eb96ca@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903271921w2dde8725x1031ba620955cb0e@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903271953l79ceb2e5j2cd5962d1dd509ff@mail.gmail.com> <1238392863.5478.122.camel@hayek> <2ae60d770903292354w21c20d42md580d06938aa6018@mail.gmail.com> <8C4E86510A1E4CD1844FA851BE3AF22F@DFC68LF1> <2ae60d770903301404m3640c996xc741b70da1b93629@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903301412j9e882bco830d774356a2696e@mail.gmail.com> <630F851B3E44427E9D4A5E321139D1C9@spike> <2ae60d770903301443o4c33a9adm2e784c1ed2ddc97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/3/31 Chad Robb : > The pentacostal Church in my hood was a scary place that pandered to Teens > wishing to get closer to God. > It wasn't all bad. The teens had a band who played pop gospel and some of > their original stuff. There was a diner where people could buy rootbeer > floats and cheeseburgers. There were pooltables everywhere. > The priest though, burned Charmed books, Broke Tool CDs, and spoke against > Dawsons Creek for having a sympathetic gay character. And I saw happy and > apparently healthy normal teenagers weep in shame at what God must think of > them for the music they listen to and the television they watch. It sickened > me. Would any of the teenagers have reasoned, God doesn't like my music and that's his right, but it's unreasonable for God to want me to stop listening to my music for that reason? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stefano.vaj at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:42:20 2009 From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:42:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] punishment In-Reply-To: <49D1BD47.3070106@rawbw.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C6C825.7030507@rawbw.com> <580930c20903230521r7e2bb5d4nd31ae09946b21ff0@mail.gmail.com> <49C895CC.3000102@rawbw.com> <49D1BD47.3070106@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <580930c20903310342s7420ff36v10583a2031ba10cb@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Lee Corbin wrote: > I agree. But alas, what one can only mean without > committing the Naturalistic Fallacy and allowing > the is/ought barrier to be crossed, is that you > and I *approve* of some moralities more than others. ... which does not prevent anybody from being staunch defenders of their own, but avoid altogether the unpleasant resonating of Holy Wars, Eternal and Universal Truths, "Thou Shalt not Suffer a Witch to Live", arguments. -- Stefano Vaj From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:54:38 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:54:38 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> Message-ID: 2009/3/31 spike : > Thanks Samantha. ?This is scary: I am seeing things in perfect agreement > with your posts. ?Everywhere I look, I see new evidences of wild power grabs > in government, in creation of crises and taking advantage of same to grab > more centralized control of everything. ?I see massive expansion of > government power, just the exact opposite of the right way to deal with an > economic crisis as demonstrated by Reagan: cut taxes, cut spending, reduce > regulation of business and personal lives. Reagan cut taxes but the US budget deficit has been more or less continuously increasing ever since. In fact, some commentators see the current financial crisis as the end of a humongous bull (or bubble) market that started with Reagan's policies of deregulation and fiscal expansion, with the blips in the early 90's and 2000's in retrospect being only minor corrections. -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:24:49 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:24:49 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: 2009/3/31 John K Clark : > Everyone here agrees that Darwin was right, but nearly everybody here also > thinks inelegant behavior can tell us nothing about consciousness. Evolution > can't see consciousness, it doesn't give a rat's ass about it, it's only > interested in behavior; and yet here we are (or rather here I am) conscious > beings. Something does not compute. It's an argument against the possibility of philosophical zombies. If zombies were possible, then we should be zombies; for what reason would evolution then have to add the complication of consciousness? -- Stathis Papaioannou From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:28:39 2009 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:28:39 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: 2009/3/31 BillK : > Just because humans have 'x' ability doesn't mean that Evolution was > aiming towards developing 'x'. For example, 'x' might have been useful > to a previous ancestor without eyes and is just a hangover that a > better adaption hasn't quite got rid of. > > As wikipedia says 'However, many traits that appear to be simple > adaptations are in fact exaptations: structures originally adapted for > one function, but which coincidentally became somewhat useful for some > other function in the process'. > > Evolution is a complete kludge. We're lucky we can walk and chew gum > at the same time. (And some of us can't do that). ?:) But it's very hard to imagine how consciousness could have arisen at all, unless it was a necessary side-effect of intelligent behaviour. -- Stathis Papaioannou From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 12:46:52 2009 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:46:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com> <4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: > I should amend my remark to say that I cannot imagine any objectively defined scheme to develop complex life forms that is more cruel than random mutation and natural selection. Every other soul, put for the eternal suffering in Hell - is a far worse case. - Thomas From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 14:26:59 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:26:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903291726o2e5115d5i90d57d7e296b4172@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CA14EF.5070104@libero.it> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> <2ae60d770903291726o2e5115d5i90d57d7e296b4172@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903310726m670fd955raac385743e955833@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/29 Chad Robb : > >>> >>> ### The bastards at Monsanto manipulate genes, not law. Why do so many >>> people hate those who do the most to feed the many? > > http://www.monsantosucks.com/ > http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805 > http://www.organicconsumers.org/ge/monsanto_antitrust.cfm > > Among other things, it sells untested crops and if its good they reap the > benefits and if wheat turns to chaff, well they socialize debt. > ### All genetically modified crops are extensively tested. It is just and proper that the makers of such crops should reap all the benefits. Monsanto is not a bank, so it cannot "socialize the debt" (this is a term from another recent purge). Rafal From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 14:44:02 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:44:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] U.S. Medical Care In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D22C32.3010401@rawbw.com> Samantha wrote in "The Big Takeover" > Calling what has prevailed for quite some time in the US a "free market" > shows a singular misunderstanding of what a free market is. This has > been at best "state capitalism" for quite a while. Yes indeed. But there are still some corners where the market is *relatively* free. Consider the difference between grocery stores and the U.S. Post Office. Which has longer lines? Which would you rather visit? Which one has a *real* incentive to try to get you to come back? I was extremely surprised to hear from a friend that at the Mayo Clinic in Phoenix, the staff is trained to be very helpful, thoughtful, considerate, and caring. It must be, I surmised, that despite powerful medical regulation, some little flower of free enterprise still exists there, at least for a while. A century and a half ago the American Medical Association began its quest for total control over American medicine. The first really impressive results were the government licensing of physicians and the AMA's own control over the number of doctors. It's been downhill ever since (once you begin to suppress liberty, each succeeding step becomes easier). Now, the hospitals are so over-regulated that they have to have very large waiting rooms to take care of all the people showing up. Does this remind you more of a very large grocery store, or of a very large U.S. Post Office? Does it remind you more of a huge car lot or of the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles)? Another friend had to go to the emergency room last month. He had a frightful pain in his liver (so far as he could self-diagnose). He had to wait three hours before anyone would look at him. If he'd died, a small notice would have appeared in the paper---or not---: "Local Man Dies of Treatable Medical Condition" Santa Clara, California. Mr. A. B. died suddenly Thursday night of a ______, which would have been treatable had he only been able to get to a hospital soon enough..." Hospitals don't care if you ever come back or not. It's all the same to them. They're completely focused on their deals with the insurance companies, and with their lobbyists in Washington and the state capitols, the latter constantly working to create even more legislation favorable to hospitals, and to stomping out any vestige of profit-sapping competition that still exists. My friend was then hospitalized for two days. Realizing, I guess, that sound sleep is their number-one competitor, a nurse came in at 4am to *weigh* him. (!) All night long, in fact, he had to endure chatter and laughing in the hallway from medical personnel, (who I guess find their jobs rather boring). What if my friend had staggered into the hallway and yelled at them, "That does it! I'm never coming back to *this* hospital again!". Embarrassed, the medical personnel would turn their faces away and try to hide their nearly uncontrollable laughter at this threat. In an extremely interesting book, "My Stroke of Insight", Jill Taylor, herself a brain scientist, described in beautiful detail what it was like to lose most of her left hemisphere, and the steps she had the fortitude to take to re-learn how to see detail in the world. She happens to now believe that her right hemisphere is more in control of her life, and she believes that all negativity originated in her left hemisphere, and now, thanks to her stroke and her hard work, it has been tamed. But even in her newfound non-critical appraisal of the world, she cannot resist slamming the medical care she received in the hospital: In the ER, Medical personnel swarmed about my gurney "Answer this, squeeze that, sign here" [and to a patient who is barely conscious, has had a severe stroke, and is almost incapacitated] and I thought, *How absurd! Can't you see I've got a problem here? What's the matter with you people?" Now if we had liberty in the U.S., there would be many, many competing hospitals eager for your business. Managers would lie awake at night---as they do for grocery stores---thinking of new ways to *not* inconvenience or annoy patients. But we have such a regulated system here in the U.S. that hospital personnel and their managers (except, I guess, at the Mayo Clinic) don't give a fuck what you like. Later in the Neurological Intensive Care Unit, "One nurse was very attentive to my needs:... [But] a different nurse, who never made eye contact..., brought me a tray with milk and jello, but neglected to realize that my hands and fingers could not open the containers. I desperately wanted to consume something, but she was oblivious to my needs. She raised her voice when she spoke to me, not realizing that I wasn't deaf... I did a lot of sleeping that afternoon of the stroke---well---as much sleeping as one can do in a hospital... I awoke early the next morning to a medical student who came rushing in to take a medical history. I thought it curious that she had not been informed that I was stroke survivor who could not speak or understand language. I realized that morning that a hospital's number one responsibility should be protecting its patients' energy levels. Oh, why? Exactly who has the incentive to do this? Why, any human bureaucrat of course. They're humane administrators who'd never allow such a thing, unlike greedy private enterprise administrators who are only concerned with making a buck and ruthlessly trying to persuade you to choose their hospital should another emergency arise. Oh, trying to get people to understand is hopeless! On the morning of day three, I was moved out of the Neurology ICU and ended up sharing a room... The TV noise from her half of the room was a painful suction of my energy. I consider it totally counter-intuitive to my idea of what I found to be conducive to healing... Unfortunately, it is not common for stroke survivors to be permitted to sleep as much as they would like. [Nor, apparently, anyone else.] Fortunately, she was able to make the decision to go home and rest up before surgery. She considers that it may have saved her life. In the coming weeks, she and her mother worked hard each day for as long as Jill could stand it to make her stronger, (often not more than 15 or 20 minutes). When she was ready, she returned, and thankfully the operation to remove the blood clot about the size of a golf ball succeeded splendidly. The horrors I've outlined above would occur with far less frequency in a free market environment. We may have the example of the Mayo Clinic for comparison. And I'm sure that if you go to the private clinics in Mexico or Asia, a lot of attention is paid towards minimizing your suffering and inconvenience, giving you enough rest, and maximizing your overall satisfaction. Here you are not only mistreated by hospitals, they have become exceedingly dangerous places to even be in. Staph infection is now a real killer. Much smaller hospitals, catering to discriminating customers whose business was valued, would do much better because over the years, here and there successful practices would have a Darwinian superiority and gradually drive to extinction poor practice. So---in the ways it counts---we already have socialism here in the U.S. Because of the AMA and the massive government regulation, just how much worse will total government control really be? I don't know, but I'm afraid we're going to find out. As Fred Moulton has cautioned many times, international comparisons are very difficult to make. I want to know by what *logic* things will improve here with even more impersonal government supervision of hospitals. If we had freedom here, I would go to a veternary for almost all medical emergencies to get kind, thoughtful care. Veternarian medicine has made great strides because the competition is intense. As a mostly free service industry, customer satisfaction is at the top of their list. But the AMA long, long ago precluded that possibility. It is now absolutely illegal for any vet, or anyone else, to provide human medical care. The same goes for cosmetic surgery. They've made wonderful advances, and the procedures get cheaper and cheaper, just as you would expect in a free, competitive business environment. Not so, of course, our impersonal regimented over-regulated present system. But to the average person, all this is incomprehensible. Government bureaucrats, not driven by the evil greedy profit motive, are to be trusted far more than their free market counterparts. And regulation by definition is GOOD. Regulation is when the government keeps private enterprise from doing bad things, so more is always better. The older I get, the more personally terrified of just how deadly hospitals will become within just a few short years, and just what possible options I have to somehow, somewhere, get private care. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 14:51:17 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:51:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> Message-ID: <49D22DE5.3030400@rawbw.com> BillK wrote: > Why worry about it? > You are *never* going to get a free market where devious > wheeler-dealer shyster smart-alec humans are involved. Actually, the economies of southeast Asia, particular that of Singapore, is far more free than here. And the economic results speak for themselves. And Samantha is right, the U.S. *used* to be far freer than it is now. The 19th century showed the greatest economic progress per decade of any since. Alas, however, in 1855 the federal government began growing steadily, and then enormously bolstered by (i) the Civil War (ii) the New Deal (iii) World War II, and (iv) the War on Poverty and the explosion of new cabinet offices and regulatory offices since, it now consumes about half of each individual's income through taxes afflicting the economy at one level or another. Yet even more power is wanted. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 15:03:53 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:03:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49C8CD5D.1080004@libero.it> <368809A6325A4CDABC2F1186F62F5C00@MyComputer> <2ae60d770903241039i1d53eb9t782fc7d3686a1aa0@mail.gmail.com> <49C9C901.3000600@rawbw.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CEF766.4040405@rawbw.com> <877C6BF4D61341F788B285679CD5223A@MyComputer> <49D0464D.1050407@rawbw.com> <49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com> <101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <49D230D9.1060100@rawbw.com> Damien writes > JKC wrote: > >> "Lee Corbin" >> >>> The theory of evolution tells us so. There would be utterly *no* point >>> whatsoever for plants to develop feelings since there is in almost all >>> cases absolutely no action that they could take based upon those >>> feelings. > > > > That is absolutely true, but nevertheless most people, even > > most people on this very list who you'd think would know > > better, think it is untrue. They say they believe completely in > > evolution, they make all the proper noises, but they still > > think there is some part of us that does nothing but generate > > feelings, subjectivity...Their position is completely > > contradictory of course > > "Nothing but" begs the question a bit (it might have evolved and then > been partially repurposed), but are you completely sure that just > because sessile plants would gain no value by evolving feelings, this is > also true for creatures that gad about, prey upon other nimble creatures > for sustenance, and even think and plan? Indeed, the extent of "feelings" in any creature we would expect to be in direct proportion to how capable they are to control their environments. Little gnats have very little control. Why, soon we'll have "simple" robots able to achieve gnat levels of behavior. But, as you point out, the more thinking and the more planning an entity is capable of, the more we can expect the existence of pain circuitry to emphasize to the creature not to repeat certain behaviors, or (if it is advanced enough) to allow certain circumstances to occur again. > And are therefore able to take all kinds of action > based on those feelings? Oh, never mind. "Oh, never mind"? Why say that when you've raised a very valuable point? Maybe you need more confidence! Lee From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 15:08:08 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:08:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: <49D22DE5.3030400@rawbw.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> <49D22DE5.3030400@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/31/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > Actually, the economies of southeast Asia, particular > that of Singapore, is far more free than here. And the > economic results speak for themselves. > > And Samantha is right, the U.S. *used* to be far freer > than it is now. The 19th century showed the greatest > economic progress per decade of any since. > As you said: "It is harder to imagine a more hideously cruel system of getting economic progress". Oh, sorry, you were talking about evolution, not economics. That's where you're misapplying your logic. The methods of evolution should not be used in a humane society. BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 15:23:53 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worshiping that Divine Blowhard. References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49D19E0D.50302@rawbw.com><101D88DF5C49447D97D5A3D07C7FB6FB@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20090331014715.0274edd0@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20090331024459.0274d568@satx.rr.com><4807651DA4BA47E89B7F8D790FAD79CF@MyComputer> Message-ID: <2A682415A493470482BEA0661DEEE237@MyComputer> "Tomaz Kristan" > > Every other soul, put for the eternal suffering in Hell - is a far worse > case. Perhaps every soul and not just every other one is destined for the eternal suffering in Hell, but by itself how does that generate higher life forms? John K Clark From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 15:24:43 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:24:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover" In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> Message-ID: <49D235BB.2030908@rawbw.com> Stathis points out > spike wrote: > >> Thanks Samantha. This is scary: I am seeing things in perfect agreement >> with your posts. Everywhere I look, I see new evidences of wild power grabs >> in government, in creation of crises and taking advantage of same to grab >> more centralized control of everything. I see massive expansion of >> government power, just the exact opposite of the right way to deal with an >> economic crisis as demonstrated by Reagan: cut taxes, cut spending, reduce >> regulation of business and personal lives. > > Reagan cut taxes but the US budget deficit has been more or less > continuously increasing ever since. True. So many times that I can't count them, I heard the Democratically controlled congress pronounce one of Reagan's budgets "dead on arrival". There was no way that they were going to cut spending. All their power depends on it. Unfortunately, the Republicans are no better. *They* had complete control of congress early in the Bill Clinton years and then again under Bush's first term. So what happened? Well, "There was no way that they were going to cut spending. All their power depends on it". > In fact, some commentators see the current financial > crisis as the end of a humongous bull (or bubble) > market that started with Reagan's policies of deregulation > and fiscal expansion, with the blips in the early 90's > and 2000's in retrospect being only minor corrections. Exactly how disastrous is the huge and super-exponentially growing U.S. debt remains to be seen.... As if we didn't already have enough economic problems. But the deregulation created wealth. Well, except when it was precluded from doing so by other existing regulation. The totally ridiculous guarantee up to $100,000 for *any* depositor's money in certain counts was an infinitely tempting lure to saving and loans to take extreme advantage, and the regulation that *had* been holding them in check was, yes, unwisely removed. But there shouldn't be nearly so much regulation at all, and the government should not be in the business of bailing out anybody---individual depositor or financial institution. The deep key to the whole fiasco is the pyramiding allowed banks by the government. The Austrian economists isolate this as the underlying cause of the eternal economic crisis. Even our "good times" are so merely because we're in an inflationary bubble (inflation defined properly as how much money the government is creating, not ephemeral price indexes). With pyramiding, if I'm a bank and you *deposit* money with me that you are free to withdraw at any time, and I lend 90% of it out to (probably) successful enterprises, then the conditions of a panic are all set. Von Mieses emphasized almost a century ago that by law every bank should have two lines: one for depositing money (where it would be sacrosanct no matter how much was there), and another for investing, where a specified due date was emblazoned on your receipt. Then banks could lend out as much of the latter as they dared, and if they miscalculated and could not repay those notes on time (because they had lent money out too riskily), down the drain they went (including possible jail time depending on the severity of the misappropriations, or possible corruption). In this latter case, only your insurance company could possibly repay you, and your insurance company may not cover certain banks that had a bad reputation. At the base of our entire eventually doomed *scheme* lies the pyramiding of bank deposits, where many people walk around thinking they own the same dollar. Lee From lcorbin at rawbw.com Tue Mar 31 15:37:51 2009 From: lcorbin at rawbw.com (Lee Corbin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:37:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> <49D22DE5.3030400@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D238CF.5020400@rawbw.com> BillK wrote: > On 3/31/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > >> Actually, the economies of southeast Asia, particular >> that of Singapore, is far more free than here. And the >> economic results speak for themselves. >> >> And Samantha is right, the U.S. *used* to be far freer >> than it is now. The 19th century showed the greatest >> economic progress per decade of any since. > > As you said: > "It is harder to imagine a more hideously cruel system > of getting economic progress". > > Oh, sorry, you were talking about evolution, not economics. > > That's where you're misapplying your logic. > The methods of evolution should not be used in a humane society. Freedom *is* indeed cruel to the irresponsible and improvident. But that's why irresponsibility and lack of prudence get eliminated over time, so the effects are transitory. Oh, sure, in every generation there will be sad sacks that just can't get it together, and people who know them ought to be appropriately charitable. But they should never be *entitled* to such charity. That's a trap. Moreover, these sad sacks will hardly be able to afford a large family (unlike now, where on some kinds of welfare they're actually *rewarded* for each child they have), and so evolution---still a very powerful force even unto this very day---would cause there to be fewer imprudent people and more prudent ones. A relatively free economy, such as exhibited by the U.S. between 1800 and 1900 indeed does allow for a very small number of people to go completely broke and even face severe hunger. (But the unleashed capitalism is so effective at creating wealth that the society prevents none from actually starve to death, or vanishingly few in weird isolated cases, anyway.) But I suspect that whatever system you have in mind has a much more dismal history. (The present European system which, for example, in Germany has created a class of people on welfare who actually reside in Spain and other cheap countries, would be patently disastrous in a non-homogeneous country like the U.S.---or, for that matter, anywhere outside Europe with its historically large, homogeneous, and hardworking middle classes.) Lee From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 15:47:51 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:47:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> <49D235BB.2030908@rawbw.com> Message-ID: > the US budget deficit has been more or less > continuously increasing Not so, at the end of the Clinton years the government was actually running a SURPLUS; but then Bush took over. John K Clark From ninjawaffles at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:19:30 2009 From: ninjawaffles at gmail.com (Chad Robb) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:19:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <7641ddc60903310726m670fd955raac385743e955833@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <580930c20903250614o79e2c3f4jdbd81022882d0e40@mail.gmail.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> <2ae60d770903291726o2e5115d5i90d57d7e296b4172@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903310726m670fd955raac385743e955833@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ae60d770903310919u391eb316hc3c4aa4542238030@mail.gmail.com> > Chad: Among other things, [Monsanto] sells untested crops and if its good they > reap the > benefits and if wheat turns to chaff, well they socialize debt. > > Rafal: ### All genetically modified crops are extensively tested. It is just > and proper that the makers of such crops should reap all the benefits. > Monsanto is not a bank, so it cannot "socialize the debt" (this is a > term from another recent purge). I read an article just recently, wondering myself why people had such dislike for Monsanto, wherein India's Monsanto cotton crop was inferior and Monsanto refuses refund. Thats what I mean by socializing debt. Poverty is India's problem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:23:41 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:23:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> <49D235BB.2030908@rawbw.com> Message-ID: On 3/31/09, John K Clark wrote: > Not so, at the end of the Clinton years the government was actually running > a SURPLUS; but then Bush took over. > Oh dear. Now we've got to get technical. Stathis probably meant the US national debt has been more or less steadily increasing. Even the Clinton budget surplus only levelled off the debt increase. But, when you look at the National Debt as a percentage of GDP, the situation looks better than just considering absolute numbers. This indicates that after WWII the US national debt position was improving until the 1980s when Bush1 and Reagan took over from Carter. Clinton did manage to reduce the debt a bit, then Bush2 started increasing it again. The problem Obama faces is that the national debt is increasing while GDP is falling. And people are collapsing under the weight of personal debt. Unknown territory lies ahead. BillK From jonkc at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 31 19:40:44 2009 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com><49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com><580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com><3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike><49D235BB.2030908@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <2D878C03793347B3A1C4FC8F0A90CCAE@MyComputer> "BillK" Wrote: > Stathis probably meant the US national debt has been more or less > steadily increasing. But NOT during the last 3 of the Clinton years. http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/ Anyway, at a time like now the last thing on earth you'd want to do is balance the budget. Hoover did it and turned a garden variety recession into a decade long worldwide depression. And by the way, I wouldn't take anything you read on that website you recommended very seriously, it's full of crackpot conspiracy theories; the man who runs it knows how to type and that's about all I can say. John K Clark From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 20:10:15 2009 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:10:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: <2D878C03793347B3A1C4FC8F0A90CCAE@MyComputer> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <3FBA6B2EE01E45D1BEBB6B3A05A125BD@spike> <49D235BB.2030908@rawbw.com> <2D878C03793347B3A1C4FC8F0A90CCAE@MyComputer> Message-ID: On 3/31/09, John K Clark wrote: > But NOT during the last 3 of the Clinton years. > > http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/ > > Anyway, at a time like now the last thing on earth you'd want to do is > balance the budget. Hoover did it and turned a garden variety recession into > a decade long worldwide depression. > That's what I said. Clinton held the national debt just about level. And if you take it as a percentage of GDP then Clinton actually reduced the national debt for a few years. You'll have to come back in ten years and see if we've had a ten-year depression (or worse). At present the powers that be seem to be making policy up as they go along with not much idea about what the effects will be. (Apart from the immediate effect of looking after their millionaire banker friends). Note that GM CEO's can be sacked, because any idiot can run a car company into the ground. But international bank CEO's cannot be sacked because it takes the best brains in the country to run a bank into the ground. If you ask 100 economists, you'll get 100 different opinions. But I suspect that for the next few years, there will be a lot of people exclaiming, 'Well, I never thought that would happen!' BillK From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Mar 31 21:05:08 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:05:08 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Economy: "The Big Takeover". In-Reply-To: <49D238CF.5020400@rawbw.com> References: <1db0b2da0903230247u518583ffw4893794a2e776543@mail.gmail.com> <49C8B19B.8090002@rawbw.com> <580930c20903240353i1853640ake3d9a6294d2baff6@mail.gmail.com> <93632127F9A742F192C5C36DBCA36781@MyComputer> <49D22DE5.3030400@rawbw.com> <49D238CF.5020400@rawbw.com> Message-ID: <49D28584.6020609@libero.it> Il 31/03/2009 17.37, Lee Corbin ha scritto: > BillK wrote: > >> On 3/31/09, Lee Corbin wrote: > > >>> Actually, the economies of southeast Asia, particular >>> that of Singapore, is far more free than here. And the >>> economic results speak for themselves. >>> >>> And Samantha is right, the U.S. *used* to be far freer >>> than it is now. The 19th century showed the greatest >>> economic progress per decade of any since. >> >> As you said: >> "It is harder to imagine a more hideously cruel system > > of getting economic progress". >> >> Oh, sorry, you were talking about evolution, not economics. >> >> That's where you're misapplying your logic. >> The methods of evolution should not be used in a humane society. > > Freedom *is* indeed cruel to the irresponsible and improvident. And it is right and fair to be so. Because the reverse would be to be cruel with the responsible and the provident. > Oh, sure, in every generation there will be sad sacks > that just can't get it together, and people who know > them ought to be appropriately charitable. But they > should never be *entitled* to such charity. That's a trap. It is a trap for the provident and responsible people, but the reward is not for the irresponsible and the improvident (they will be screwed nonetheless) but for the irresponsible and provident. The smart elite that feel themselves entitled to rule the lowlife and feel they don't need to do anything to payback their privileges. Usually they are the proponents of welfare and they use it to extract wealth from the individuals that are productive and hardworking. > Moreover, these sad sacks will hardly be able to afford > a large family (unlike now, where on some kinds of welfare > they're actually *rewarded* for each child they have), > and so evolution---still a very powerful force even unto > this very day---would cause there to be fewer imprudent > people and more prudent ones. Natural selection is a powerful force that will always be with us. It could be stealthy and unseen, but it will always act. > A relatively free economy, such as exhibited by the > U.S. between 1800 and 1900 indeed does allow for a > very small number of people to go completely broke > and even face severe hunger. (But the unleashed > capitalism is so effective at creating wealth that > the society prevents none from actually starve to death, > or vanishingly few in weird isolated cases, anyway.) The only that will starve are the people unable or unwilling to ask help. > But I suspect that whatever system you have in mind > has a much more dismal history. (The present European > system which, for example, in Germany has created a > class of people on welfare who actually reside in Spain > and other cheap countries, would be patently disastrous > in a non-homogeneous country like the U.S.---or, for > that matter, anywhere outside Europe with its historically > large, homogeneous, and hardworking middle classes.) Lee, the current European system is set to a big turmoil, as the homogeneus populations are becoming increasingly non-homogeneus. So many immigrants are on welfare paid by indigenous population (and the burden is growing) that any serious disruption of the economy it is probable to ignite social problems without touching the religious strife with Muslims). My opinion is that, in the next 10 years - but probably much before - we could see severe disruption in the social stability in a few European countries (something about people shooting people, blowing off people and cutting heads off - something like the ex-Jugoslavia, only a bit faster and harsher). Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Mar 31 23:06:53 2009 From: painlord2k at libero.it (painlord2k at libero.it) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:06:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] If Politicians were Innocent and Honest In-Reply-To: <580930c20903291656s1e01748ci1bd9767b843f1687@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CB0B8C.5050706@rawbw.com> <4A7821086578426D8FF0AE0E90BC9DC5@spike> <49CC6297.3070903@rawbw.com> <49CD2750.4020603@libero.it> <580930c20903280822p20b8bf82xf00d6ec2245b7505@mail.gmail.com> <49CFFE7B.4010403@libero.it> <580930c20903291656s1e01748ci1bd9767b843f1687@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D2A20D.7020004@libero.it> Il 30/03/2009 1.56, Stefano Vaj ha scritto: >> If I'm wrong, could you point to me where and when Islam learned >> religious intolerance and missionarism from judeochristianism? > The Old Testament? And when do you hear any of them cite the Old Testament? Or the New Testament? A basilar tenet of faith for them is that the Old and the New Testament were corrupted respectively by Jews and Christians and anything not concordant with the Quran and the Hadits must be discarded. > The crusades? I remember that the First Crusade happened in the 1095. The first people killed by Muslims are from Medina just after Mohammed went there and started to convert people there (620). Some notable examples of victims were: Asma bint Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan Abu Afak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_%27Afak All of this is recorded in the Islamic texts by the Muslims, not from enemies. So, the Crusades happen 470 years after the first killing religiously motivated by Islam. > The Spanish "Reconquista" that my friend Guillaume Faye seems > nowadays to like so much? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Muslim_occupation_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula 818 > > > - The revolt in C?rdoba against the Muslims is punished by three days of massacres and pillage, with 300 notables crucified and 20,000 families expelled. > The inquisition? The Spanish Inquisition happen after the Reconquista. And it is a Spanish thing, not a Catholic thing. Add to this that > The witch hunt? Do you speak about the accuse of witchcraft that Mohammed raised against his enemies? They are recounted in the Hadits. > The ethnocidal efforts of missionaries in Africa, Asia, the > Americas? Do you speak about the ethnocidal efforts of the Christian missionarries to exterminate the Hindus in the current Afghanistan? I would say they were very successful, as there are no Hindus in Afghanistan, only Muslims. > The Muslim chroniclers al?Baladhuri (in Kitab Futuh al?Buldan) and > al?Kufi (in the Chachnama) include enough isolated details to > establish the overall nature of the conquest of Sindh by Muhammad b. > Qasim in 712 C.E. [6] These narratives, and the processes they > describe, make clear that the Arab invaders intended from the outset > to Islamize Sindh by conquest, colonization, and local conversion. > Baladhuri, for example, records that following the capture of Debal, > Muhammad b. Qasim earmarked a section of the city exclusively for > Muslims, constructed a mosque, and established four thousand > colonists there. [7] The conquest of Debal had been a brutal affair, > as summarized from the Muslim sources by Majumdar. [8] > > Despite appeals for mercy from the besieged Indians (who opened their > gates after the Muslims scaled the fort walls), Muhammad b. Qasim > declared that he had no orders (i.e., from his superior al?Hajjaj, > the Governor of Iraq) to spare the inhabitants, and thus for three > days a ruthless and indiscriminate slaughter ensued. In the > aftermath, the local temple was defiled, and '700 beautiful females > who had sought for shelter there, were all captured'. The capture of > Raor was accompanied by a similar tragic outcome. [9] > >> Muhammad massacred 6000 fighting men who were found in the fort, >> and their followers and dependents, as well as their women and >> children were taken prisoners. Sixty thousand slaves, including 30 >> young ladies of royal blood, were sent to Hajjaj, along with the >> head of Dahar [the Hindu ruler]. We can now well understand why >> the capture of a fort by the Muslim forces was followed by the >> terrible jauhar ceremony (in which females threw themselves in fire >> kindled by themselves), the earliest recorded instance of which is >> found in the Chachnama. [9] Majumdar, The Classical Age, pp. >> 458?459. I suppose they learned this from the Crusaders that happened 3 centuries after. > But, there again, who cares? Islam might or might not be marginally > better than Christianity in this or that aspect (e.g., with regard to > pre-implantation diagnosis or the teaching of ID in western schools). Well, the Christians will not, marginally, kill you for believing in evolution and will not, marginally, yell you "Son of pigs and apes" in the same time. > Its metaphysical fundamentals, however, remain nevertheless just as > at odd with a transhumanist anthropology as any other such religion. You could say so; you could believe so; but there are many reasons to believe that Christianity is the religion of Technology. > And certainly I do not welcome its forced import in Europe, to some > extent sponsored by the US, if anything because muslims still believe > in their God more than European christians in average do. It is not that they believe in it, it is that they feat it (and the religious establishment and their co-religionists) more than they fear the reactions of the locals. The problem is they are exchanging the behaviour of the elites with the behaviours of the population. And the elites are doing their best to suppress any natural and healthy reaction (for their sake). So, when the suppression will not work any more, the reactions will be much worse and uncontrollable. Mirco For the reader informations I add this news: http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/03/italy-two-deported-for-planning-to-blow.html A day or another someone of them will be lucky or a bit less moronic than usual, and will succeed in doing something really big. Then the reaction will not be pretty to see or hear. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 23:35:47 2009 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:35:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "against GM crops" (was Re: punishment) In-Reply-To: <2ae60d770903310919u391eb316hc3c4aa4542238030@mail.gmail.com> References: <365161.35727.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49CAB577.9060900@libero.it> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325182234.0239cea8@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090325183941.025c04a8@satx.rr.com> <7641ddc60903260824q25fcdc58nc1c50150ba39864d@mail.gmail.com> <49D003E3.8010902@libero.it> <2ae60d770903291726o2e5115d5i90d57d7e296b4172@mail.gmail.com> <7641ddc60903310726m670fd955raac385743e955833@mail.gmail.com> <2ae60d770903310919u391eb316hc3c4aa4542238030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7641ddc60903311635q5ea65a04hb01c99bc429ddd89@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/31 Chad Robb : > > I read an article just recently, wondering myself why people had such > dislike for Monsanto, wherein? India's Monsanto cotton crop was inferior and > Monsanto refuses refund. > Thats what I mean by socializing debt. Poverty is India's problem. ### Did they sell their seeds with guarantees of performance? If not, they are of course not liable for any failure. Rafal